# Washington Navy Yard shooting: Active shooter sought in D.C.



## Jay (Sep 16, 2013)

http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/09/washington-navy-yard-shooting-injures-several-people-94074.html


An active shooter is being sought on the grounds of the Washington Navy Yard in Southeast Washington, officials say.



Continue reading

Confirmation of the search for a shooter came just after 8:30 a.m. from Metropolitan Police Department officials.

Further confirmation was tweeted by the United States Navy a short time later.



Read more: http://www.wjla.com/articles/2013/0...jures-several-people-94074.html#ixzz2f3jxinkR
Follow us: @ABC7News on Twitter | WJLATV on Facebook


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## Jay (Sep 16, 2013)

Update

Shooter has shot 1 person(not sure on persons condition) he's in a building on the 4th floor. He's using a "large shotgun". Will update as I get more information.

Two victims confirmed. 11th street bridge is now a triage center. status of victims will not be confirmed according to local PD. More ambulances rolling in. Several agencies on scene including local PD, US Marshall's, and FBI HRT. Not sure who has jurisdiction, according to Fox they said snipers are running down the street and getting set up. Several SWAT trucks and ambulances have pulled in and 3 confirmed shots fired from gunman.

Nothing known about the shooter and as of right now he is on the loose.

Reports of two officers down. Five to six people have been shot. No word on their condition.


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## Muppet (Sep 16, 2013)

For fucks sake. Shoot this fucker already SWAT and or officers.

F.M.


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## 8654Maine (Sep 16, 2013)

Stay safe.  Hope it ends quickly.


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## Jay (Sep 16, 2013)

This guy has apparently barricaded himself in, not sure if he has hostages or not.

Unconfirmed reports that the shooter is down and in custody. 10 or more injured. Some dead. RIP to the fallen.

Correction: shooter is NOT in custody, just isolated and away from civilians


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## DA SWO (Sep 16, 2013)

Jay said:


> Correction: shooter is NOT in custody, just isolated and away from civilians


So shoot him and be done with it.


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## Jay (Sep 16, 2013)

Official report: 4 dead, 8 wounded.


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## Scubadew (Sep 16, 2013)

Jay said:


> Official report: 4 dead, 8 wounded.


 

Damn. RIP.


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## Jay (Sep 16, 2013)

Just heard on the radio two different types of rounds have been used. Possibility of two shooters.

HRT is clearing the building in conjunction with other SWAT teams.  A helicopter has dropped SWAT on the roof.

Fox confirms two gunman. One still barricaded the other is unknown


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## TheSiatonist (Sep 16, 2013)

Damn...

RIP to those who perished. Speedy recovery to the wounded.


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## x SF med (Sep 16, 2013)

Prayers out to the fallen, and I hope Satan eats the hearts of the shooters.
But, one question...  Are Gibbs and Ziva on scene to fix this?


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## Jay (Sep 16, 2013)

Feds reporting primary shooter dead.



x SF med said:


> Prayers out to the fallen, and I hope Satan eats the hearts of the shooters.
> But, one question...  Are Gibbs and Ziva on scene to fix this?



NCIS is on scene apparently. I did see a tac'd out marine sprinting down a side walk? Maybe?

Presidents speech is delayed. Hopefully there's only one shooter and this dickhead is dead.

Same team that pulled the Boston bomber out of the boat is the team on the hunt for the second shooter. Get 'em HRT!!

Chief of Naval Operations and family have been evacuated from his home.

Also now 6 dead.

Current press conference from DC Chief of Police saying 2 other shooters in military uniforms. Nothing to believe they are military but are definitely in uniformed and armed with a long gun and other a pistol.


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## Gypsy (Sep 16, 2013)

x SF med said:


> Prayers out to the fallen, and I hope Satan eats the hearts of the shooters.
> But, one question...  Are Gibbs and Ziva on scene to fix this?


 
Ziva is abandoning us.  

RIP to our dead, swift recovery to our wounded.

Kill the other shooter, bastard.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 16, 2013)

RIP to the dead. I hope a speedy recovery for the wounded.

Thoughts and prayers all around.

Thumbs up to the LE community for their response.


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## JHD (Sep 16, 2013)

RIP to the fallen, speedy recovery to the wounded.  May God guide and protect the officers tracking down the POS.  hopefully no one else will be hurt.

Rot in hell to the dead POS.


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## Rapid (Sep 16, 2013)

RIP.

I read that there's a possibility of two other people being involved. If that's the case, I hope they 'find' them soon...


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## Jay (Sep 16, 2013)

12 confirmed dead from the DC police chief...body count continues..


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## TheSiatonist (Sep 16, 2013)

Jay said:


> 12 confirmed dead from the DC police chief...body count continues..


Holy shit! What the hell is happening?

Is there a gun battle or something?  The body count just doubled in an hour!


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## Jay (Sep 16, 2013)

TheSiatonist said:


> Holy shit! What the hell is happening?
> 
> Is there a gun battle or something?  The body count just doubled in an hour!



I think people are dying at the hospital. I know a woman was shot in the head and was still alive and had been life flighted to the hospital. There have been several that were critical. I know they're still looking for the two other suspects and the one gunman is dead. Not sure how. I hope HRT or SWAT dropped him and he didn't turn the gun on himself...but I'm not sure.


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## TheSiatonist (Sep 16, 2013)

Just saw this tweet on ABC7News: Witness to the #*NavyYardShooting* to @*ABC7Sam*: "He was just walking through the building shooting."


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## Jay (Sep 16, 2013)

TheSiatonist said:


> Just saw this tweet on ABC7News: Witness to the #*NavyYardShooting* to @*ABC7Sam*: "He was just walking through the building shooting."



Yeah I've heard the same from witnesses. The Captain of the USS Cole was on Fox and said he had been texting his friend who were there and they were stuck inside and there were bullet holes in the office. I hope they catch the other two guys quickly..


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## JBS (Sep 16, 2013)

Jay said:


> NCIS is on scene apparently. I did see a tac'd out Marine sprinting down a side walk? Maybe?
> 
> Presidents speech is delayed. Hopefully there's only one shooter and this dickhead is dead.


Possibly a Marine from MB 8th & I reactionary team.   There's always a contingent of Marines on duty there 24/7 with serious firepower... and within foot mobile distance of the Navy Yard. There are also teams of Marines that run security duty at the Navy Yard 24/7 but for General Officers and select personnel.  The rest of the WNY has different kinds of security depending on which section.  I stood post at the Latrobe Gate and nobody gets in through  there until we've given them a colonoscopy.  It sounds like this occurred in the interior of the base, perhaps on the side covered by private security and accessible through other Yard entrances not used by General officers.


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## Jay (Sep 16, 2013)

JBS said:


> Possibly a Marine from MB 8th & I reactionary team.   There's always a contingent of Marines on duty there 24/7 with serious firepower... and within foot mobile distance of the Navy Yard. There are also teams of Marines that run security duty at the Navy Yard 24/7 but for General Officers and select personnel.  The rest of the WNY has different kinds of security depending on which section.  I stood post at the Latrobe Gate and nobody gets in through  there until we've given them a colonoscopy.  It sounds like this occurred in the interior of the base, perhaps on the side covered by private security and accessible through other Yard entrances not used by General officers.



That's exactly what it was! A buddy in the GORUCK community said his boys in the 8th and I had cleared/evac'd the local schools and were setting up outside the base. That had to be quite the experience for the kiddo's...

News just said one of the "suspects" they believe was a Navy first responder and they're more focused on the person in olive drab with the long rifle.

Shooter has been ID'd as 34 year old Aaron Alexis..


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## medicchick (Sep 16, 2013)

Jay said:


> Shooter has been ID'd as 34 year old Aaron Alexis..



Civilian contractor

Death toll up to 13 so far.


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## Johca (Sep 16, 2013)

http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/aaron-alexis


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## Jay (Sep 16, 2013)

Johca said:


> http://www.fbi.gov/wanted/seeking-info/aaron-alexis



He was wanted by the FEDS?


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## x SF med (Sep 16, 2013)

Jay said:


> He was wanted by the FEDS?


 
Info is requested by the feds based on today's events.... he's been running off grid, it seems, with no indicators of action....  must not have served in the armed forces.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 16, 2013)

When I first heard about this, I wondered if it was related to Zawahiri's recent request for "lone wolf" activity in support of AQ.  Probably far too early to speculate on that right now.


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## Muppet (Sep 16, 2013)

Jesus man. R.I.P. and prayers to all involved.

F.M.


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## Jay (Sep 16, 2013)

He was discharged from the Navy after 2 years. Sounds like dishonorable...


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## compforce (Sep 16, 2013)

The Navy says a gunman who opened fire inside a building at the Washington Navy Yard was a full-time reservist from 2007 to 2011.

The Navy said in a release Monday that 34-year-old Aaron Alexis, of Texas, left the Navy on Jan. 31, 2011, as a petty officer 3rd class. It's not immediately clear why he left.

Alexis had been working for the fleet logistics support squadron No. 46, in Fort Worth, Texas. The Navy says his home of record was New York City.


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## Brill (Sep 16, 2013)

Just imagine the response if USMIL and DOD civilians were REQUIRED to carry at work?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 16, 2013)

lindy said:


> Just imagine the response if USMIL and DOD civilians were REQUIRED to carry at work?



I have been saying that since before the FT Hood shooting. I think every AD service member should be required to carry their assigned weapon and a magazine of ammo. In todays current society, it foolishness that they are not.

Instead they require mandatory hide under your desk training for our nations defense forces. 

Yeah there ain't nothing wrong with our current Military leadership.


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## pardus (Sep 16, 2013)

RIP to the fallen and a full recovery to those wounded, condolences to those left behind.

I hope the media doesn't glorify this murderer like they do with every other mass murderer. 
The anti-gun nuts have already started spewing their vomit...


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 16, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> When I first heard about this, I wondered if it was related to Zawahiri's recent request for "lone wolf" activity in support of AQ.  Probably far too early to speculate on that right now.



That was my thought as well, Mara. Early on, in particular, with reports of multiple shooters; AQ came to mind.

How in the world of "tight" security, did he get an AR-15 inside ?


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## RackMaster (Sep 16, 2013)

RIP.


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## Chopstick (Sep 16, 2013)

http://swampland.time.com/2013/09/1...entagon-inspector-general-says/#ixzz2f6eBnrdb



> A soon to be released government audit says the Navy, in an attempt to reduce costs, let down its guard to risks posed by outside contractors at the Navy Yard and other facilities, a federal official with access to the report tells TIME.
> 
> The Navy “did not effectively mitigate access control risks associated with contractor installation access,” at Navy Yard and other Navy installations, the report by the Department of Defense Inspector General’s office says. Parts of the audit were read to TIME by a federal official with access to the document.
> 
> ...


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## Marine0311 (Sep 16, 2013)

Once again a lack of funding/money/"costs too much" now costs lives. Time and time again this happens. Also the fact that felons can work on military bases while honorably discharged veterans are struggling to find work burns me also.


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## tova (Sep 17, 2013)

RIP, Godspeed, PBS....


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 17, 2013)

Red Flag 1 said:


> ~SNIP~
> 
> How in the world of "tight" security, did he get an AR-15 inside ?


Add to that (the shooter had) a history of mental health issues, including paranoia, sleep disorder and hearing voices.
Source is a Fox News article from my phone app, sorry for no link at the moment


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## Jay (Sep 17, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Add to that (the shooter had) a history of mental health issues, including paranoia, sleep disorder and hearing voices.
> Source is a Fox News article from my phone app, sorry for no link at the moment
> 
> View attachment 9246




http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/17/active-shooter-at-washington-navy-yard/

Here ya go


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 17, 2013)

Jay said:


> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2013/09/17/active-shooter-at-washington-navy-yard/
> 
> Here ya go


Thank you!!


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## Jay (Sep 17, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Thank you!!



No problem! I was watching it when you posted. Lots of red flags with this guy..very very sad..


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## LibraryLady (Sep 17, 2013)

RIP to the fallen.  Prayers out to all affected by their loss.

LL


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## AWP (Sep 17, 2013)

A sleep disorder is a mental health issue? That ranges from sleep apnea to night terrors. Maybe the guy has a legit sleep-related psychological issue, but placing a sleep disorder and hearing voices next to each other without any qualifiers is crap.

Blue skies.


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## RetPara (Sep 17, 2013)

That may be just some of the generalized symptoms.  The guy does not really sound stable anyway.


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## comrade-z (Sep 17, 2013)

Adding to what Retpara said.....disturbed sleep can be, along with other issues, a symptom of underlying mental health issues/chemical imbalances. Sleep disorders are also (somewhat) commonly found to be comorbid but separate to a host of mental health disorders/syndromes/etc.


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## LibraryLady (Sep 17, 2013)

comrade-z said:


> Adding to what Retpara said.....disturbed sleep can be, along with other issues, a symptom of underlying mental health issues/chemical imbalances. Sleep disorders are also (somewhat) commonly found to be comorbid but separate to a host of mental health disorders/syndromes/etc.



And your medical discussion is backed up by what kind of expertise?

LL


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 17, 2013)

comrade-z said:


> Adding to what Retpara said.....disturbed sleep can be, along with other issues, a symptom of underlying mental health issues/chemical imbalances. Sleep disorders are also (somewhat) commonly found to be comorbid but separate to a host of mental health disorders/syndromes/etc.



Snoring is considered  a sleeping disorder....would that mean anyone who snores has an underlining mental illness?

Painting with broad strokes, like you just did, is irresponsible, especially on a military forum and when a good majority of service members suffer from sleeping disorders.

$.02


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 17, 2013)

comrade-z said:


> Adding to what Retpara said.....disturbed sleep can be, along with other issues, a symptom of underlying mental health issues/chemical imbalances. Sleep disorders are also (somewhat) commonly found to be comorbid but separate to a host of mental health disorders/syndromes/etc.



There is a measure of truth in what you are saying.  I expect that the point here is mentioning, the "sleep disorder", is akin to having the bodyshop describing a car as being a total loss; and the spare tire needs a little air .


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## AWP (Sep 17, 2013)

Red Flag 1 said:


> There is a measure of truth in what you are saying.  I expect that the point here is mentioning, the "sleep disorder", is akin to having the bodyshop describing a car as being a total loss; and the spare tire needs a little air .


 
Or as I tried to explain in my original post, "wrecked" means a lot of things. Is the bumper bent, a door caved in, did it flip 3 times and catch on fire...Then to add it to a list containing some obvious "NS Sherlock" symptoms of mental illness is just irresponsible. Add some qualifiers or don't print it.


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## comrade-z (Sep 17, 2013)

I realize my mistake in not specifying that what I said does not pertain to all sleep disorders, or all mental health issues - I apologize for the misunderstanding.  As Jab pointed out, snoring is an example of one of many sleep disorders that, in all likelihood doesn't really apply here.  To put what I meant another way, sleep is very closely related to our mental health - sleep deprivation can cause impairment in our ability to function, to potentially extreme levels if not dealt with.

One example that is less relevant in the case of the Naval Yard shooter, but still shows a strong link between sleep disturbances and mental issues is with ADHD.  There is a decent amount of research linking the two - while it might seem obvious, the point of the matter is that a lack of sleep can create A.D.D. (no H) like symptoms, and that a psychiatric issue such as A.D.H.D. might be the underlying cause for the difficulty sleeping.

http://www.medscape.org/viewarticle/708287_6 - one article of many about this particular connection between sleep disturbances and psychiatric issues.

An article about more general issues of comorbidity of certain sleep disorders and psychiatric issues - http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/19420207
"Current data demonstrate a high rate of comorbidity between sleep disorders and various psychiatric illnesses, especially mood and anxiety disorders."

As far as my personal expertise, I have no formal training.  However several members of my family are medical doctors and there are several members in my family with sleep disorders, so the topic (as well as a deluge of research articles from my father) comes up regularly.  Having had sleep issues in the past myself, I have also had the chance to ask other doctors and sleep specialists about said articles and had information verified.  

As an aside, when I say "issues", I mean anything from benign symptoms that honestly are hard to consider a "disorder", up to actual medical disorders.

Once again, I apologize for the misunderstanding - I am known for being sometimes rather eloquent, and other times coming up with a terribly useless mishmash of words.


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## JHD (Sep 17, 2013)

Manic depressive people have sleep issues, and are known to hear voices.  
But again, how was this guy hired in this capacity with all of the red flags attached to him?


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## RackMaster (Sep 17, 2013)

@comrade-z what makes you qualified to make any of those assumptions?  I have a sleep disorder and a history of mental health problems; does that make me a potential psychopath?   There are so many variables that would drive someone to do such acts and not getting a good night sleep is not the smoking gun.


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## policemedic (Sep 17, 2013)

JHD said:


> Manic depressive people have sleep issues, and are known to hear voices.
> But again, how was this guy hired in this capacity with all of the red flags attached to him?



This statement is somewhat akin to saying that all cars have wheels, therefore anything with wheels is a car.

There has been debate in the psychological literature about the pathological nature of hearing voices.  An argument has been made that in and of itself, hearing voices is not diagnostic of mental illness at all.  

While people who suffer from bipolar disorder may indeed hear voices, that symptom is not a diagnostic criterion of BPD.  It may be superimposed on the BPD, but auditory hallucination is most commonly associated with schizophrenia and related disorders, for which it is a diagnostic feature.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 17, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> A sleep disorder is a mental health issue? That ranges from sleep apnea to night terrors. Maybe the guy has a legit sleep-related psychological issue, but placing a sleep disorder and hearing voices next to each other without any qualifiers is crap.
> 
> Blue skies.



I have sleep apnea and the occasional night terror... you guys better watch out, I might go on a ban-binge or something.  :-"


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## AWP (Sep 17, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> I have sleep apnea and the occasional night terror... you guys better watch out, I might go on a ban-binge or something.  :-"


 
I just finished my company's Violence in the Workplace CBT. While you're probably aware of them, I'll sum up warning flags for someone about to get their office kill on:

Angry or emotional outbursts
Carrying a grudge
Serious disagreement with those in authority
Mood swings
Depression
Wanting to be "left alone"

One of the examples was guy storming out of a meeting and throwing his clipboard down in his cubicle while expressing his disgust with a policy or procedure. "This is stupid" or something to that effect.

I'm not looking for a show of hands, but think about how many of us meet two or more of those criteria (those are what I remember out of 8-10). I don't wish to hijack the thread any further, but fresh off my hour-long CBT the "sleep disorder" caught my eye.


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## medicchick (Sep 17, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> I just finished my company's Violence in the Workplace CBT. While you're probably aware of them, I'll sum up warning flags for someone about to get their office kill on:
> 
> Angry or emotional outbursts
> Carrying a grudge
> ...




I just call those PMS.:-"


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## racing_kitty (Sep 17, 2013)

medicchick said:


> I just call those PMS.:-"



I don't think "Rotating his/her head 360°" would be included in Freefalling's CBT.


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## AWP (Sep 18, 2013)

racing_kitty said:


> I don't think "Rotating his/her head 360°" would be included in Freefalling's CBT.


 
No, but I'm smart enough to know that "signal flow" isn't what happens to a woman every 4 weeks.


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## JHD (Sep 18, 2013)

policemedic said:


> This statement is somewhat akin to saying that all cars have wheels, therefore anything with wheels is a car.
> 
> There has been debate in the psychological literature about the pathological nature of hearing voices.  An argument has been made that in and of itself, hearing voices is not diagnostic of mental illness at all.
> 
> While people who suffer from bipolar disorder may indeed hear voices, that symptom is not a diagnostic criterion of BPD.  It may be superimposed on the BPD, but auditory hallucination is most commonly associated with schizophrenia and related disorders, for which it is a diagnostic feature.



Just to clarify, I wasn't attempting to diagnose the POS or anything, I was sort of responding to ComradeZ.  No one really knows what this guys medical issues were, for certain.  I don't disagree with anything you said above.


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## RetPara (Sep 18, 2013)

I don't see the issue with this....  it all seems so normal to me:

*Hearing Voices*              I have hearing loss & Tinnitis - so sometimes I think I hear something when it's the radios tones combing with the T.   Now some people find it strange for me to have long and in depth conversations with my dogs.   However, they make much more sense than what most people say.
*Angry or emotional outbursts*     This is merely an adjustment issue that most veterans have when confronting so-called normal society and their lack of education, constructive reasoning, orderly planning, and generally just having their head so far up their fourth point of contact that they haven't had a breath of air in the current century.  (Congress is not included in this as they reside in their own little space & time continuum>)
*Carrying a grudge  *                                 Merely the knowledge that the person fits into the classic description of of a non-veteran in the definition above.
*Serious disagreement with those in authority*     See above.
*Mood swings     *                                        When you realize that you can never be as awesome, weapon, acolyte of death that you once were.
*Depression   *                                               See above.  PLUS you miss your toys - various light and heavy machine guns, expressing yourself through your C4 based artwork, the smell of the perfect cup of MRE coffee brewed in a well seasoned canteen cup heated  in mere seconds by that perfect pinch of C4, and not having to worry about extensive personal hygiene.
*Wanting to be "left alone"   *                Merely means that you just don't have to deal with ass-hats at the moment.
*Sleep Disorder*                                           What quantifies as a sleep disorder.   Warren Zevon had it right, you can sleep when your dead.   



*Night Terrors          *                                   Don't piss your wife off......


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## AWP (Sep 18, 2013)

Jon Stewart had an amazing piece on the news coverage of the shooting:





 
Fox gave Stewart's clip coverage:

http://www.foxnews.com/entertainmen...ard-shootings-coverage-video/?intcmp=features

If you watch the two you'll notice how the first 3:10 seconds or so of the first clip are cut out. I don't mean to make this a Fox bashing post, but consider what you're watching and/ or reading when the various "news" outlets are feeding it to you.


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## TheSiatonist (Sep 19, 2013)

^^And here I was thinking I was the only one confused.  After only one name came out I was like "Was that it? Is it over?  How about the other two shooters?" 

Seems to be the same way how the news coverage was handled here during the Zamboanga siege about a week ago.  Maybe it's the way how it's done these days -- if the event itself is not too chaotic enough, count on the news agencies to add to the confusion.


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## JHD (Sep 19, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> Jon Stewart had an amazing piece on the news coverage of the shooting:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That was just brilliant, and spot on.


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## x SF med (Sep 19, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> I have sleep apnea and the occasional night terror... you guys better watch out, I might go on a ban-binge or something.  :-"


 
Only if an NCO guides your night terrors and delusions, Sir.


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## reed11b (Sep 19, 2013)

RetPara said:


> I don't see the issue with this....  it all seems so normal to me:


 I wish I could agree AND like this post.
Reed


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## Chopstick (Sep 20, 2013)

Here is a little fun fact:



> U.S. Investigations Services LLC, a private firm that contracts with the U.S. military to conduct background investigations for security clearances, has confirmed it was responsible for vetting Aaron Alexis, the man suspected of murdering 12 people in Monday’s Navy Yard shooting, The Wall Street Journal reports. The same firm also did a background investigation for the security clearance of NSA whistleblower Edward Snowden.


 
http://swampland.time.com/2013/09/20/same-contractor-vetted-snowden-and-navy-yard-suspect/


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## enceladus (Sep 20, 2013)

Not really surprising, considering USIS does roughly 50% of the background checks for OPM.


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## Chopstick (Sep 20, 2013)

enceladus said:


> Not really surprising, considering USIS does roughly 50% of the background checks for OPM.


 
THAT is what is so worrying.


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## policemedic (Sep 21, 2013)

This fucker needs to be keelhauled, tarred and feathered, then shot in the public square at dawn. On pay-per-view. 

*Capitol Police Tactical Team Recalled During Navy Yard Shooting*
*Watch commander ordered ERT to stand down and return to Capitol*

http://www.lawofficer.com/video/news/capitol-police-tactical-team-r


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## Kraut783 (Sep 21, 2013)

That is really jacked up, probably some pussy watch commander sitting on his ass worried about any bad decision affecting his retirement....f'cker.


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## 8654Maine (Sep 21, 2013)

It would be very helpful to know why this decision was made.  Maybe it would have saved some lives.


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## policemedic (Sep 21, 2013)

I'd be interested to know his rationale but at the end of the day unless there was a simultaneous terror threat at the Capitol there simply is no justification for pulling the tactical team from a mutual aid response to an ongoing active shooter event with people dying. Poor decision-making, pure and simple. 

I'd be fired if I pulled my team off something like that.


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## TheSiatonist (Sep 21, 2013)

At such a tragic event, there are some comedians out there who manage to come up with something.


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## 0699 (Sep 22, 2013)

8654Maine said:


> *It would be very helpful to know why this decision was made*.  Maybe it would have saved some lives.


 


policemedic said:


> *I'd be interested to know his rationale* but at the end of the day unless there was a simultaneous terror threat at the Capitol there simply is no justification for pulling the tactical team from a mutual aid response to an ongoing active shooter event with people dying. Poor decision-making, pure and simple.
> 
> I'd be fired if I pulled my team off something like that.


 
I agree with these two statements and will reserve judgement until/unless we know more.  I can imagine many scenarios where you wouldn't want to drain all your resources to handle one incident.


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## policemedic (Sep 22, 2013)

Very true.  Each PD in the nation has a specific purpose; the USCP were created to police and protect the Capitol.  Their first obligation and duty is to the Capitol. 

With that said, there was another full SWAT team on duty at the Capitol.


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## pardus (Sep 22, 2013)

Sorry but it's very hard not to be judgmental about this decision. Pulling out the one and only resource you had available that was geared specifically for a threat such as this?
Smacks of politics to me. I guess we'll find out for sure soon enough.




policemedic said:


> Very true.  Each PD in the nation has a specific purpose; the USCP were created to police and protect the Capitol.  *Their first obligation and duty is to the Capitol. *
> 
> With that said, there was another full SWAT team on duty at the Capitol.



Which would make slightly more sense if it was USCP that pulled them back, not the watch commander.


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## AWP (Sep 22, 2013)

I can think of a few good reasons to keep them out/ pull them back. I'll wait to hear the official story/ coverup before I comment though I expect to hear to something that makes sense but is based on a broken premise. For example, concerns about Blue on Blue because no one thought to have a common comm process or on-scene commander.

Anyway, it will shake out soon enough. This has too much visibility.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 22, 2013)

As we all know, when something like this happens, reports of shit happening everywhere start bouncing around. WNY, has its own SRT and with the amount of LEO's that converged, I'm not convinced another SWAT team would have made a difference.  Also if word was coming in of other possible attacks/threats, it would be smart to keep a few capabilities in reserve.

The incident commander could have told the USCP watch commander to stand down, hell the incident commander probably had more on his plate than he knew how to handle. Apparently you not only had USMC & NAVY response, you had the FBI, USMS, ATF, USCP, WNY civi-police. I mean that's a lot of LEA's responding, interacting, and conducting threat containment, search/evac/rescue and security.


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## policemedic (Sep 22, 2013)

pardus said:


> Sorry but it's very hard not to be judgmental about this decision. Pulling out the one and only resource you had available that was geared specifically for a threat such as this?
> Smacks of politics to me. I guess we'll find out for sure soon enough.
> 
> 
> ...



For clarity, it was the USCP Watch Commander that made the decision. 

I understand exactly how these guys feel.  Given that at least one of the two MPD cops that were standing with the USCP ERT guys when they were recalled got shot to shit when they had to enter without them, I'd be livid if I was one of the ERT guys. 

Granted, active shooters aren't a SWAT problem. But if SWAT is literally standing in the door, it's idiocy to pull them off the objective. 

I know there were multiple agencies responding, but honestly I'd be more comfortable as the overall IC with uniformed folks rather than plain clothes G-men.  Less chance of misidentification that way.


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## pardus (Sep 22, 2013)

policemedic said:


> *For clarity, it was the USCP Watch Commander that made the decision. *
> 
> I understand exactly how these guys feel.  Given that at least one of the two MPD cops that were standing with the USCP ERT guys when they were recalled got shot to shit when they had to enter without them, I'd be livid if I was one of the ERT guys.
> 
> ...



Oh, I guess I totally misunderstood the reporters then.  That makes more sense. Still leaves me shaking my head though.

Active shooter is not a SWAT problem?


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## Kraut783 (Sep 22, 2013)

pardus said:


> Oh, I guess I totally misunderstood the reporters then.  That makes more sense. Still leaves me shaking my head though.
> 
> Active shooter is not a SWAT problem?


 
Well...active shooters are usually first responder problems (patrol).  Just meaning, when it happens it is very fluid, fast and over quickly, or becomes a standoff of somekind.  SWAT needs a little bit more time to get together and get on scene*

The DC area probably has some kind of SWAT team in a QRF mode though......while most departments don't have that luxury.

*not counting individual tactical guys that responded in ones and twos, meaning a full team with load out, gear, vehicle...etc.


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## Ranger Psych (Sep 22, 2013)

pardus said:


> Oh, I guess I totally misunderstood the reporters then.  That makes more sense. Still leaves me shaking my head though.
> 
> Active shooter is not a SWAT problem?



Getting there quickly and shooting a bad guy in the face isn't a SWAT problem. SWAT's the QRF. Whoever is THERE has to solve it to prevent more people from dying.  Including Joe Shmoe Concealed Carry, Go.


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## pardus (Sep 22, 2013)

Roger, I see what was meant now.


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## Yoshi (Sep 25, 2013)

Some surveillance footage of Alexis entering the building. What a POS.



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## Blizzard (Sep 25, 2013)

^ 

The video almost raises more questions than it answers.  

He looks to be hold a Remington 870, probably the most popular shotgun ever made (perhaps that is now open to ban discussion).   I think it holds 6 or 7 shells.  He's not carrying an ammo pouch/backpack, although it looks like he may be wearing cargo pants that could maybe have shells in the pockets.   Regardless, the number of  rounds available appears fairly limited.  Sure, his potential shot coverage is greater but, all things considered given this footage, I'm a bit surprised he wasn't stopped much sooner.  

I understand significant damage can be done in a short time and response times play a factor in that equation.  Still, nearly every shot he took must've been fatal because I can't imagine him getting more that one, maybe 2, reloads in before being confronted by someone.  I guess that's probably overly naive on my part...hindsight and all that...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 25, 2013)

Blizzard said:


> ^
> 
> The video almost raises more questions than it answers.
> 
> ...



Stopped by who, the unarmed personnel who are told to hide in their offices?

Although I would imagine anyone in uniform would attempt to stop a gunman armed or not (as happend at the FT Hood shooting) I think its ridiculous to expect that to happen, especially when DoD trains all personnel to hide and not confront an active shooter.

We can say it was a failure in security, a failure to identify this killer for the psychopath he was, and so on.

The reality is that people are dying in the situations b/c the leadership has failed to properly address the need for all personnel to maintain a personal protection posture at all times. You work for the 'armed' forces, you wear a uniform, you are a target...and you should be 'armed' and ready to defend yourself and your post at all times....period.


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## Totentanz (Sep 25, 2013)

JAB said:


> Stopped by who, the unarmed personnel who are told to hide in their offices?
> 
> Although I would imagine anyone in uniform would attempt to stop a gunman armed or not (as happend at the FT Hood shooting) I think its ridiculous to expect that to happen, especially when DoD trains all personnel to hide and not confront an active shooter.
> 
> ...



Except that in their minds running, hiding, and waiting for someone else to take care of it IS a force pro measure...:wall:


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## Blizzard (Sep 25, 2013)

JAB said:


> Stopped by who, the unarmed personnel who are told to hide in their offices?....


No, I get all that and agree to a large extent.  One of the troubles I have reconciling is that it reportedly was an hour before he was stopped.   Video was available.  He used only his shotgun until he shot a security guard and took his weapon (a 9mm pistol - did he have the presence of mind to take his additional ammo too or did he just have whatever was loaded in the weapon? - I don't know).

BTW, this really isn't an attempt to place blame in any way or Monday morning quarterback, rather, I guess it's frustration around how these things can happen.  As I mentioned, I evidently have this naïve view of how events might progress in an active shooter situation.


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## 0699 (Sep 26, 2013)

JAB said:


> We can say it was a *failure in se*curity, a *failure to identify this killer for the psychopath he was*, and *so on*.


 
I disagree.  I don't believe this was a failure on anyone's part.  I think this was a the result of one person (who appears to have had some mental problems, like many Americans do) going off the deep end and killing a lot of people.  I think this was 100% the fault of the shooter.  I think there were appropriate and resonable security measures in place to prevent any expected or anticipated security problems.  To sit here and try to lay blame will only result in more laws, regulations, and policies that will only further infringe on the 99.99% of the population that is GTG and cost tons of money without proving demonstrable results.  Unless there's a way to prove that security detered an attack, and I think it's pretty impossible to prove a negative.

I see trying to "solve" this problem as similar to trying to solve the problem of the 100 year flood or hurricane.  The expense involved will be astronomical, and it probably won't "fix the problem" anyway.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 26, 2013)

@0699, I guess I should have worded that different. I was attempting to point out that question the security or safety apparatuses is pointless.

That the only way that reducing the amount of loss of life, is by individuals having the means and ability to defend themselves and their work area/duty post.

In that context, I do believe it to be a leadership failure that they have 1) not identified the need for service members to be armed while on duty, and 2) b/c they have not required it and 3) b/c they now require training for service members to hide.

The Armed Forces should be armed, especially when they are now under attack in recruiting stations, military installations and general places of duty.


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