# Officer or Enlisted route - NSW



## Deadpool (Nov 5, 2012)

Hey guys,
     Basically I'm 17 at the moment - as you can see on my profile- I'm in my final year of High School, and I'm choosing as to whether I should enlist or go the Officer route. I've spoken to several former SEALs, and the Officers have said that going the Officer route is more beneficial to yourself in the long run whereas Enlisted Men have suggested the idea of going the enlisted route and then eventually putting your papers in for OCS.
     My concern is not the title but rather that I want to be able to "be in the fight" as long as I can, and still operate effectively. From what I understand, SEAL Officers are limited to roughly 5 years at the Platoon level before they move on (it even says that on SEALSWCC.com) - but the Officers I've spoken to have claimed that is complete BS that men can still serve on operations up until the O-5 Level. Needless to say, the enlisted men completely agree with the statement above - that being Officers are limited to roughly five years. 
      And that certain opportunities would not be afforded to me, from what I've read rarely can Officers attend Sniper school, (and all due respect, and in no way shape or form am I trying to offend anyone nor am I trying to violate OPSEC) if I wanted to "Operate" - a term that should restricted to a certain group of individuals - I won't nearly spend as much time "Operating" as an Officer as I would an enlisted man. Is any of this true? Again, I understand If I am violating OPSEC I completely understand why this would be deleted - and I apologize if I am. 
       I know that there are former and current NSW Operators on this site like Lykurgus and SAWMAN - you guys have been there and done that, I have nothing but respect for you guys if you could help me out I'd really appreciate it.
                                                                                                                          Thanks.
                                                                                                                       - Deadpool


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## SkrewzLoose (Nov 5, 2012)

Didn't you already ask this HERE...




> If you don't mind me asking, and as far as SEAL Teams go, how long can an Officer stay operational at the Platoon level? If I happen to become a SEAL, I would want to serve as much time as humanly possible on the tactical side of it - if I went the Officer route would I have a significant amount of time to serve on the Platoon level? Thanks, any advice is appreciated.


 
You've also said twice (in the same thread) that there is something preventing you from enlisting.


> I would prefer to enlist, but there's a reason as to why I'm not.


 


> I would much rather enlist to be frank, It's just that there is a situation that is in a way "restricting" me.


 
You're not giving us the whole story, you're asking the same question over again and you're contradicting yourself. You should be focused on graduating HS right now.


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## Deadpool (Nov 6, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Didn't you already ask this HERE...
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I'm sorry, and I'm not trying to fool anyone I don't have a criminal record or something ridiculous - basically it came down to my family being allright financially and no offense, it's just a little personal for me not exactly something I want to discuss on an open forum. Something happened recently, so in other words - my family isn't exactly in any financial trouble therefore I have the option to enlist. 

I didn't mean to offend you, and I'm sorry if I did.


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## DirtySailor (Nov 6, 2012)

If you like working, go enlisted.


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## SkrewzLoose (Nov 6, 2012)

DirtySailor said:


> If you like working, go enlisted.


LT Michael Murphy ring a bell?


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## DirtySailor (Nov 6, 2012)

Appeal to emotion...nice.

A true hero, but you gotta be OIC eventually, no matter your warfare community.


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## Lycurgus (Nov 7, 2012)

Getting a slot at BUD/S as an officer is VERY competitive.  We typically pick up only a handful of guys a year.  You had better have an outstanding GPA, be a PT monster, and speak a critical language.  Also, as an officer you only get one shot at BUD/S.  The odds are not in your favor.  As an enlisted guy you will get to spend more time doing platoons.  Keep in mind even as an enlisted guy, you will eventually get pushed to more mission planning big picture type stuff as you pick up rank.  Nobody can ever take a college degree away from you and will be useful for when you get out of the military...take that as you like.


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## Deadpool (Nov 7, 2012)

Lycurgus said:


> Getting a slot at BUD/S as an officer is VERY competitive. We typically pick up only a handful of guys a year. You had better have an outstanding GPA, be a PT monster, and speak a critical language. Also, as an officer you only get one shot at BUD/S. The odds are not in your favor. As an enlisted guy you will get to spend more time doing platoons. Keep in mind even as an enlisted guy, you will eventually get pushed to more mission planning big picture type stuff as you pick up rank. Nobody can ever take a college degree away from you and will be useful for when you get out of the military...take that as you like.


If I enlist, and hypothetically somewhere down the line I want to 'cross over to the dark side' and become an Officer - how hard is it to get orders to OCS?


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## Marauder06 (Nov 7, 2012)

DirtySailor said:


> If you like working, go enlisted.


 
I would very much like to hear what you mean by this post.


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## AWP (Nov 7, 2012)

DirtySailor said:


> If you like working, go enlisted.


 
While I generally despise dogpiling, you need to clarify this statement.

NCO turned OCS grad


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## DirtySailor (Nov 7, 2012)

I meant nothing wrong by my comment. Just a failed attempt at a joke (Hurr don't call me sir, I work for a living-kinda thing)

All kidding aside, I admire some of the phenomenal work that officers have done and the leadership burden that they are asked to carry is a heavy yoke no matter who they are.

Also, Mattis 2016. Just sayin'.


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## DirtySailor (Nov 7, 2012)

I will say this...if you have hopes of working at an alphabet soup agency should you not make the .mil your career, that degree will go a long way, even more so than just a pure enlisted experience, SOF or otherwise.


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## DA SWO (Nov 7, 2012)

DirtySailor said:


> If you like working, go enlisted.


 
That may be true for the conventional Navy, or Navy Reserve; but SOF is a different breed of Officer.

Be prepared to lead by example.

Dirty Sailor, what is an APSU Student?


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## DirtySailor (Nov 7, 2012)

Austin Peay.


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## Lycurgus (Nov 7, 2012)

Deadpool said:


> If I enlist, and hypothetically somewhere down the line I want to 'cross over to the dark side' and become an Officer - how hard is it to get orders to OCS?


 
If you are a squared away SEAL, then getting orders to OCS or doing STA-21 is not that difficult.  Realize though that you will be competing with other SEALs for a SPECWAR slot in STA-21 or getting a shot at OCS.  The only pick up 1 or 2 guys a year for STA-21 SPECWAR option.


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## DirtySailor (Nov 7, 2012)

What is the process of going WO in the SEAL community? What sort of duties are expected of a SEAL WO?


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## Marauder06 (Nov 7, 2012)

DirtySailor said:


> Austin Peay.


 
rick here on the site is an Austin Peay grad.  Do you guys know each other?


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## DirtySailor (Nov 7, 2012)

Nah. Never heard of him. Is he still around clarksville/Ft. Campbell?


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## Lycurgus (Nov 7, 2012)

DirtySailor said:


> What is the process of going WO in the SEAL community? What sort of duties are expected of a SEAL WO?


 
You have to be a Chief first to apply to WO.  Warrant Officers are non-operational and typically serve at our training commands.


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## DirtySailor (Nov 7, 2012)

I knew they had to be chiefs, but I never knew the latter part.


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## 104TN (Nov 7, 2012)

DirtySailor said:


> Nah. Never heard of him. Is he still around clarksville/Ft. Campbell?


 
What year did you graduated? '08 here. I live a little further South in one of the Nashville 'burbs but still make it up to C-ville a lot to see family and friends.


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## DirtySailor (Nov 7, 2012)

Still a student there. Sophomore. Currently studying Poli-Sci.


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## DA SWO (Nov 7, 2012)

Lycurgus said:


> You have to be a Chief first to apply to WO. Warrant Officers are non-operational and typically serve at our training commands.


Do you guys still have the LDO Program?


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## SkrewzLoose (Nov 7, 2012)

Deadpool , seeing as how this thread is somehow still open, here's my take.  And this is from the stand point of enlisting straight out of HS Vs. going to college first.  It has nothing to do with how much cool guy shit you'll be doing as an E vice O.  
If I had to do it all over again, I would have enlisted straight out of HS.  Probably (read: definitely) into a different branch, but that's a whole 'nother thread.  I would have done 2-3 years in my XYZ job and THEN decided if I wanted to 1) give the O thing a shot or 2) give the SOF thing a shot 3) stay where I was/different job, non-SOF.  
The pros, as I see them are: You get a good feel for the military life and how things work, situational awareness anyone?  Granted, becoming an O or SOF would drastically change that, but you still have that foundation.  Not having to pay for anything is really nice.  You live in barracks, you eat at galleys/dining halls/DFAC, you essentially only pay for any expenses that you CHOOSE to take on.  Deployments as a single 20-something are a great way to save a shit ton of money.  If you choose the O route through ROTC or something like that, you have the MGIB and TA.  You can live off the combined payments of those 2 alone if you do it right, or pick up some light part time work.  I've seen my best friend milk the shit out of both.  
You also need to think about life if you don't make it through your HSLD pipeline.  Haze gray & underway if you wash out of BUD/S.  And no, everyone who DOR is not automatically sent to the fleet as an undesignated Seaman/Airman.  Something probably more land based in any other branch. 
Again, I can't speak at all regarding the operational level, but this is my take on the subject in very general terms.  I still think your main focus needs to be getting laid as often as possible and graduating HS.  You'll have plenty of time to worry about the military.   
Just my $.02.


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## SkrewzLoose (Nov 7, 2012)

SOWT said:


> Do you guys still have the LDO Program?


Yes Sir, we do.
You have to be E7 or above or an E6 who is going to be testing/eligible for E7 that year.


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## Lycurgus (Nov 7, 2012)

Actually, we do not have LDOs anymore. The SEAL LDO program was discontinued a few years ago....the LDOs have to choose between going WO or getting a regular commission. Here's an excerpt from the Navy website:

*Navy Announces Disestablishment Of SEAL LDO Designator*


Story Number: NNS120117-11Release Date: 1/17/2012 11:24:00 AM
*A* *A* *A*  

 

​integrating their skill sets into the naval special warfare community. 
From Navy Personnel Command Public Affairs
MILLINGTON, Tenn. (NNS) -- Navy has announced the phase-out of the SEAL Limited Duty Officer (LDO) designator, officials said Jan. 17.

According to NAVADMIN 017/12 the disestablishment will create efficiencies while increasing war fighting capability through integration of existing officers into the naval special warfare enterprise. 

Under a phasing plan announced in the message, disestablishment will occur in two phases. 

During the first phase, current SEAL LDOs may convert to the SEAL unrestricted line officer designator based on defined criteria. Some SEAL LDOs may continue to serve in the LDO capacity until retirement if that date fits within billet conversion timelines. Implementation will be managed by the SEAL officer community manager.

In the second phase, beginning in fiscal year 2013, Navy will begin converting SEAL LDO billets to SEAL chief warrant officer billets or SEAL unrestricted line officer billets. Billet conversion will occur through fiscal year 2017.


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## Deadpool (Nov 8, 2012)

Lycurgus said:


> Actually, we do not have LDOs anymore. The SEAL LDO program was discontinued a few years ago....the LDOs have to choose between going WO or getting a regular commission. Here's an excerpt from the Navy website:
> 
> *Navy Announces Disestablishment Of SEAL LDO Designator*
> 
> ...



Understood, thanks Lykurgus for all the help so far.

 From what I understand (and what the guys on another forum have to say) is that as an Officer you're limited when it comes to not only time at the platoon level but also when it comes to attending the various schools as an O. For example, If I wanted to attend sniper school - chances are I won't be able to as an Officer. Can an Officer attend one of the various schools within NSW, for example Sniper school?

And without violating OPSEC, and I apologize if I am, several former NSW operators that I've spoken to - they say If I wanted to "operate" (a term that should be restricted to a very select few) I should go the enlisted route in the sense that operational time as an officer is cut drastically short. Is there any truth to this? If I violated OPSEC, I'm apologize I didn't mean to and I won't ever ask again.

Again, thanks for all the help.


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## Deadpool (Nov 8, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Deadpool , seeing as how this thread is somehow still open, here's my take.  And this is from the stand point of enlisting straight out of HS Vs. going to college first.  It has nothing to do with how much cool guy shit you'll be doing as an E vice O.
> If I had to do it all over again, I would have enlisted straight out of HS.  Probably (read: definitely) into a different branch, but that's a whole 'nother thread.  I would have done 2-3 years in my XYZ job and THEN decided if I wanted to 1) give the O thing a shot or 2) give the SOF thing a shot 3) stay where I was/different job, non-SOF.
> The pros, as I see them are: You get a good feel for the military life and how things work, situational awareness anyone?  Granted, becoming an O or SOF would drastically change that, but you still have that foundation.  Not having to pay for anything is really nice.  You live in barracks, you eat at galleys/dining halls/DFAC, you essentially only pay for any expenses that you CHOOSE to take on.  Deployments as a single 20-something are a great way to save a shit ton of money.  If you choose the O route through ROTC or something like that, you have the MGIB and TA.  You can live off the combined payments of those 2 alone if you do it right, or pick up some light part time work.  I've seen my best friend milk the shit out of both.
> You also need to think about life if you don't make it through your HSLD pipeline.  Haze gray & underway if you wash out of BUD/S.  And no, everyone who DOR is not automatically sent to the fleet as an undesignated Seaman/Airman.  Something probably more land based in any other branch.
> ...


Thanks, I appreciate all the help.


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## DirtySailor (Nov 8, 2012)

How can you violate OPSEC when you don't have a clearance to begin with?

;)


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## DirtySailor (Nov 8, 2012)

Lycurgus, if an SO1 or SOC is picked up for STA-21 and earns an unrestricted commission, will his prior experience effect how he is utilized, or will he fill the traditional role of a non-prior ensign coming to the teams?


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## Marauder06 (Nov 8, 2012)

DirtySailor said:


> How can you violate OPSEC when you don't have a clearance to begin with?
> 
> ;)


 
You don't need to have a security clearance to violate OPSEC. OPSEC is friendly-focused and largely pertains to unclassified information which, when combined with other data, helps paint a picture for the enemy. OPSEC is a command/operations function, that's why it's OPSEC and not INTSEC.

From the Army FM on the subject:



> OPSEC is a process of identifying critical information and subsequently analyzing friendly actions attendant to military operations and other activities...


 



> d. Operations Security (OPSEC) Compromise.
> (1) An OPSEC compromise is the disclosure of critical information or sensitive information which has been identified by the Command and any higher headquarters that jeopardizes the unit’s ability to execute its mission or to adequately protect its personnel and/or equipment.


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## Deadpool (Nov 8, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> You don't need to have a security clearance to violate OPSEC. OPSEC is friendly-focused and largely pertains to unclassified information which, when combined with other data, helps paint a picture for the enemy. OPSEC is a command/operations function, that's why it's OPSEC and not INTSEC.
> 
> From the Army FM on the subject:



As I said before, I apologize if did violate OPSEC.


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## x SF med (Nov 8, 2012)

Deadpool... I've been watching your posts and have to ask some questions.

1. Do you just want to be in NSW for the 'cool guy' points? It appears the answer to that is yes.
2. Do you have a clue what you really want to do in your career? It appears the answer is no.
3. Do you understand the differences in levels of authority and charges of responsibility between NCO and Officers in NSW? (All enlisted personnel in NSW should be considered NCOs based on the job) It appears, that again, the answer is no.

Based on this I have a few suggestions for you.
1. Do some reasearch on the roles of the men assigned to NSW, on your own.
2. Do some research on the differences between NCO and Officer responsibilities.
3. After this research, do some soul searching and figure out which track is correct for you figuring your personality and what satisfies you in a job.
4. Don't post the same question over and over in a bunch of different threads - it annoys people, and shows them you are a little lazy... remember the members of the SOF community are here and looking and can figure out who you are if you make it to any A&S or training... this is your first impresssion... you aren't doing very well.

Take all of this as you will, I did not go 'All NCO" on you... I think I should have, and will in the future if you don't at least look like you might have read this 'little set of instructions."

3 rules that will help you as you begin your journey into the real world, military or civilian.
1. Don't open your pie hole unless you are absolutely sure you are correct, or you have a germane question.
2. When you want to open your gob, don't. Think about what you want to say.  Gauge your audience properly.
3. When you do finally spout some assinine statement/question/observation, be prepared for the repercussions, voiced or unvoiced.

Your move.


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## Deadpool (Nov 8, 2012)

x SF med said:


> Deadpool... I've been watching your posts and have to ask some questions.
> 
> 1. Do you just want to be in NSW for the 'cool guy' points? It appears the answer to that is yes.
> 2. Do you have a clue what you really want to do in your career? It appears the answer is no.
> ...



I'm sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone, I'll read more and post less, again I'm sorry.


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## Lycurgus (Nov 8, 2012)

DirtySailor said:


> Lycurgus, if an SO1 or SOC is picked up for STA-21 and earns an unrestricted commission, will his prior experience effect how he is utilized, or will he fill the traditional role of a non-prior ensign coming to the teams?


 
He will have to fill the traditional role as an AOIC and OIC, but there are always exceptions depending on the prior skill set and the situation.  They will also definitely be treated much different from a non-prior officer.


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## DirtySailor (Nov 9, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> You don't need to have a security clearance to violate OPSEC. OPSEC is friendly-focused and largely pertains to unclassified information which, when combined with other data, helps paint a picture for the enemy. OPSEC is a command/operations function, that's why it's OPSEC and not INTSEC.
> 
> From the Army FM on the subject:


I stand corrected.


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## Doorkicker03 (Nov 10, 2012)

Deadpool said:


> I'm sorry, didn't mean to offend anyone, I'll read more and post less, again I'm sorry.


 
don't be sorry just don't be dumb about it. You need to have a more rational approach about your decision. If you can afford college go. Don't skip college because you think the war will be over when you graduate. Fact is there will always be a war, especially for NSW. Do research and read books, i.e. _Lone Survivor, American Sniper, Fearless, et... _And another very important thing you need to think about is to go to BUD/S as an officer or ensign you need to have a 3.5 GPA or higher.

Go to college get a degree, if after college you still want to do it and you have the GPA and prereqs. than do it. But if you lack the prereqs and/or the GPA, there is no problem at all going enlisted with a degree. In fact most of the enlisted SEALs I have met have degrees at the bachelor level


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## dmcgill (Nov 14, 2012)

You don't know how long you want to be in the fight until you've been in the fight.


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## Lycurgus (Nov 14, 2012)

dmcgill said:


> You don't know how long you want to be in the fight until you've been in the fight.


 
Now that's real talk!!!  LOL


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## Doorkicker03 (Nov 14, 2012)

yup, it's either an addiction or a nightmare


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