# Bull Ensign, Order of the Shellback, and other hazing highjinks....



## Devildoc (Jan 15, 2016)

I was at work today talking with some colleagues, some who had been in the service, some not.  We got on the topic of ceremonies-_cum_-hazing.  I was a corpsman for many years, but then got my commission.  I was the Bull Ensign, the most senior Ensign of the command, and as such had to provide a joke of the day, coordinate social activities, run the wardroom, and essentially be the CO's bitch.  I also talked about the Order of the Shellback, crossing the equator.  There are also about a dozen other "orders" in which ritualistic hazing 'may' occur/have occurred.

I know other services have unique activities and ceremonies.  Anyone care to share any experiences (first-hand or anecdotal)?


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## Brill (Jan 15, 2016)

I never considered Blue Nose (1992) or Chiefs' Initiation (2001) as hazing but rather a bonding experience.


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## Devildoc (Jan 15, 2016)

Foremost, I agree re: bonding vs hazing.  I could have chosen a better word.  FWIW as much a pain in the ass as being The Bull was, it wasn't hazing so much as the constant being picked on.  That was just....annoying.

There are so many traditions...tacking the crow, wetting the crow/bar, pinning rituals...none of which I considered malicious but rather bonding/tradition.


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## Brill (Jan 15, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> Foremost, I agree re: bonding vs hazing.  I could have chosen a better word.  FWIW as much a pain in the ass as being The Bull was, it wasn't hazing so much as the constant being picked on.  That was just....annoying.
> 
> There are so many traditions...tacking the crow, wetting the crow/bar, pinning rituals...none of which I considered malicious but rather bonding/tradition.



Agree.  The ONLY time I knew beyond a shadow of a doubt the bond/haz line was crossed was in mid-90s watching Marines tack on their blood wings.  My best friend was on the receiving end of another Jarhead who ran head first into his chest, tacking on the wings and knocking them both down.

My buddy quickly jumps up and screams "Is that all you pussies got?!?!"  He ended up marrying a very nice looking USAF intel officer.

I got my NAC wings pinned on by an Admiral.  Now, I run in women's shoes (size 12.5).

Correlation?  I dunno.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 15, 2016)

I still think I can feel the bruises from when I had to walk the gauntlet after getting promoted to Lance Corporal. After seeing my best friend at the time not be able to PT the day after getting his Blood Stripes, (he literally could not walk)  there was a genuine fear I had of even wanting to make Corporal. 

Not sure if the Corps still does that stupid shit, but I hope not. Fist shots to the shoulder or thighs is one thing, but to injur someone in that way is just stupid.


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## Gunz (Jan 15, 2016)

I walked the gauntlet and got my bloodstripes for Corporal on the flightdeck of the USS Shreveport (LPD-12) in the Bermuda Triangle. My arms and legs were black purple yellow and green for a week and a half after getting blooded. I had leg injuries already in my left leg so they concentrated on the right.


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## Grunt (Jan 15, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> ...Not sure if the Corps still does that stupid shit, but I hope not. Fist shots to the shoulder or thighs is one thing, but to injur someone in that way is just stupid.



We had one on crutches for weeks after walking the gauntlet when we picked up Corporal. His common peronneal was destroyed.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jan 16, 2016)

My Div-O just took off his Bull-bars tonight as he was promoted to LTJG. He's a solid dude, SWO qual'd as an Ensign and actually gives a shit about his people. 
I'll let you all know how the whole shellback thing goes in a month or so...


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## Teufel (Jan 17, 2016)

SkrewzLoose said:


> My Div-O just took off his Bull-bars tonight as he was promoted to LTJG. He's a solid dude, SWO qual'd as an Ensign and actually gives a shit about his people.
> I'll let you all know how the whole shellback thing goes in a month or so...



@Skrewloose, you're still a nasty wog?!  Unsat. You can't be a proper sailor until you've been judged by King Neptune and his court.   I await the results of your trial at the equator.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jan 17, 2016)

Indeed I am, Sir. Based on what I've heard about what goes on during all this, 2 things come to mind: 1) I've already been through worse and 2) I might be inclined to punch someone in the dick at some point. 
I'll be sure to let everyone know how it goes if/when it happens.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 17, 2016)

My first unit had an old Kpot painted fire engine red and glued an old green tent pole to the top (one of the shelter half ones). It was the "Cherry Hat" painted in white out in the front and back and allowed every NCO to quickly identify you and task you with some reindeer game, bullshit tasks. All new PVTs had to wear it, everywhere, until the next noob or until his SL said you were good to go. I was very lucky that I only wore it for one 2 day drill, until the next noob showed up. Our Btn XO, had me drive him down to the fueling point, wearing the cherry hat, a shit load of civilians and soldiers had a good time laughing at my expense.


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## Teufel (Jan 17, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> My first unit had an old Kpot painted fire engine red and glued an old green tent pole to the top (one of the shelter half ones). It was the "Cherry Hat" painted in white out in the front and back and allowed every NCO to quickly identify you and task you with some reindeer game, bullshit tasks. All new PVTs had to wear it, everywhere, until the next noob or until his SL said you were good to go. I was very lucky that I only wore it for one 2 day drill, until the next noob showed up. Our Btn XO, had me drive him down to the fueling point, wearing the cherry hat, a shit load of civilians and soldiers had a good time laughing at my expense.



I don't normally play this game but I can do you one better.  I'm sure most members here are familiar with the "cherry jumper" tradition. I've been to a variety of airborne units in my recon career and everyone of them had some sort of tradition to introduce new jumpers into the world of airborne on their first jump out of Airborne school.  I've seen helmets painted red, strips of red tape on helmets and other things.  My friend out at 3d Recon had a fairly entertaining cherry jump.  Apparently his platoon started putting a red strip of tape on the helmet of a cherry jumper.  At some point someone painted cherries on the side of a helmet and this became the cherry jumper's helmet.  This continued to escalate until someone super glued a huge red dildo to the front of a red MICH helmet.  I'm sure you can see where this is going. The jumper exited the aircraft, the dildo detached from the front of the helmet and impacted the forehead of the jumper with great violence, rendering the Marine unconscious. Needless to say the battalion commander had some questions for the jumpmaster after he read the incident report.


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## Ranger Psych (Jan 17, 2016)

We just used a piece of 550 starched to rigidity, taped with red 100mph tape to a helmet that was fully adorned with red tape...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 17, 2016)

Teufel said:


> I don't normally play this game but I can do you one better.  I'm sure most members here are familiar with the "cherry jumper" tradition. I've been to a variety of airborne units in my recon career and everyone of them had some sort of tradition to introduce new jumpers into the world of airborne on their first jump out of Airborne school.  I've seen helmets painted red, strips of red tape on helmets and other things.  My friend out at 3d Recon had a fairly entertaining cherry jump.  Apparently his platoon started putting a red strip of tape on the helmet of a cherry jumper.  At some point someone painted cherries on the side of a helmet and this became the cherry jumper's helmet.  This continued to escalate until someone super glued a huge red dildo to the front of a red MICH helmet.  I'm sure you can see where this is going. The jumper exited the aircraft, the dildo detached from the front of the helmet and impacted the forehead of the jumper with great violence, rendering the Marine unconscious. Needless to say the battalion commander had some questions for the jumpmaster after he read the incident report.



That is awesome!


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## pardus (Jan 18, 2016)

Juvenile games...


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## SkrewzLoose (Jan 18, 2016)

Intentionally injuring your people to the point where they can't move or are in crutches is absurd. What's to be gained from that?


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## Brill (Jan 18, 2016)

Teufel said:


> I don't normally play this game but I can do you one better.  I'm sure most members here are familiar with the "cherry jumper" tradition. I've been to a variety of airborne units in my recon career and everyone of them had some sort of tradition to introduce new jumpers into the world of airborne on their first jump out of Airborne school.  I've seen helmets painted red, strips of red tape on helmets and other things.  My friend out at 3d Recon had a fairly entertaining cherry jump.  Apparently his platoon started putting a red strip of tape on the helmet of a cherry jumper.  At some point someone painted cherries on the side of a helmet and this became the cherry jumper's helmet.  This continued to escalate until someone super glued a huge red dildo to the front of a red MICH helmet.  I'm sure you can see where this is going. The jumper exited the aircraft, the dildo detached from the front of the helmet and impacted the forehead of the jumper with great violence, rendering the Marine unconscious. Needless to say the battalion commander had some questions for the jumpmaster after he read the incident report.



Dick head?


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## Brill (Jan 18, 2016)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Intentionally injuring your people to the point where they can't move or are in crutches is absurd. What's to be gained from that?



To separate Marines from the Air Force.


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## DA SWO (Jan 18, 2016)

Teufel said:


> I don't normally play this game but I can do you one better.  I'm sure most members here are familiar with the "cherry jumper" tradition. I've been to a variety of airborne units in my recon career and everyone of them had some sort of tradition to introduce new jumpers into the world of airborne on their first jump out of Airborne school.  I've seen helmets painted red, strips of red tape on helmets and other things.  My friend out at 3d Recon had a fairly entertaining cherry jump.  Apparently his platoon started putting a red strip of tape on the helmet of a cherry jumper.  At some point someone painted cherries on the side of a helmet and this became the cherry jumper's helmet.  This continued to escalate until someone super glued a huge red dildo to the front of a red MICH helmet.  I'm sure you can see where this is going. The jumper exited the aircraft, the dildo detached from the front of the helmet and impacted the forehead of the jumper with great violence, rendering the Marine unconscious. Needless to say the battalion commander had some questions for the jumpmaster after he read the incident report.



My last jump unit had a set of white helmets with cherries painted on them.  The jumper would paint his initials on the helmet after making jump 6 (or his first unit jump once the pipeline was established).

Someone complained and the Wing CC said he wanted it to stop.  I replied the the chain e-mail that the white helmet was worn as a safety measure; the Chain of Command bought my reasoning and our tradition continued.


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## Devildoc (Jan 19, 2016)

SkrewzLoose said:


> My Div-O just took off his Bull-bars tonight as he was promoted to LTJG. He's a solid dude, SWO qual'd as an Ensign and actually gives a shit about his people.
> I'll let you all know how the whole shellback thing goes in a month or so...



Being the Bull was a pain in the ass.  Even though I was a mustang, everyone from E6 up felt like they had an open hand to give me shit.  I had to do a joke of the day.  I got raunchier and raunchier until I was eventually told to just stop. 

I also had to put together some dinings-in/dinings-out, which is a lot of work, but being a mustang always tried to give the enlisted participants some priority.


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## Poccington (Jan 19, 2016)

pardus said:


> Juvenile games...



I agree with the Kiwi.

I'm all for tradition but some of the stories just sound like cunts being cunts, with the power of rank to back it up.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jan 19, 2016)

We were discussing this a bit on watch tonight and there are a few folks who are opting out of the "Crossing the Line" ceremony. Makes no difference to me and I can actually understand their desire to not want to participate. A good buddy of mine says, "what's wrong with these people who don't want to participate in this!?"
Me: Maybe they don't want to be a part of a stupid ritual that holds no real meaning any longer and will do nothing to further their career in the Navy or afterwards. Nothing that goes on in these ceremonies actually tests anyone's 'sea worthiness'. It's just stupid for some and fun for others.
SILENCE
Him: So you're not participating??
Me: Of course I am, but I still think it's stupid. And it will give me a reason to punch someone in the dick if they get heavy handed with what's required for our rites of passage. 

I love it when I get under my good friends' skin!


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## Gunz (Jan 19, 2016)

Poccington said:


> I agree with the Kiwi.
> 
> I'm all for tradition but some of the stories just sound like cunts being cunts, with the power of rank to back it up.


 
Yeah, I remember not appreciating it all that much. I was trying my best to stay in the infantry despite complications from wounds and getting hammered by shipmates and fellow NCOs was not my idea of facilitating the goal. But it was tradition so I sucked it up. And in the end it made no difference.


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## CDG (Jan 24, 2016)

@SkrewzLoose, the Shellback thing isn't really that bad.  It's stupid, yes, but it's one of those things you do because it makes you part of the club.  Chiefs can opt out of Chief's initiation, but it doesn't reflect favorably.  Same with this.  You might roll your eyes, but the Navy is the most tradition bound of all the services and Order of the Shellback is one of those traditions.  I was glad I did it when it was over, despite the irritation I felt for part of it.


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## pardus (Jan 25, 2016)

This is the kind of shit that pisses me off.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jan 25, 2016)

if it worth saying, it will be quoted.


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## Devildoc (Jan 25, 2016)

Is there hazing?  I am sure there is, as evidenced by the video, but I wonder if videos like that and the semi-fictionalized "code red" incident in A Few Good Men overstate the problem?  Not condoning it, at all, but curious just how bad it is.

Blood pinning?  Been there (well, know it has happened).  Stupid shit?  Yup.  Tacking the crow?  Yup.  But for-real, physically damaging barbarous behavior?  I never saw it.  (again, not saying it doesn't happen)


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## Grunt (Jan 25, 2016)

I am sure there are "fringe" elements in all the branches and units that carry things too far. The line between doing something to welcome someone into a brotherhood is a far leap from doing some of the things which are dangerous to one's health. It's those things I disagree with and believe need to be stopped.


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## AWP (Jan 25, 2016)

When you start hitting someone to where they have physical injuries....fuck your traditions with a pizza cutter. At best you're a moron following the herd. You're talking clownshoe behavior with none of the oversight provided by SERE school or other courses. Initiations should be a bonding or rite of passage, not how hard can we hit this guy to demonstrate his 'toughness'?" Idiots one and all.

RE: jumping. We used our own helmets and that individual's section/ detachment decorated them. Mine had wraps of engineer tape with things written on it in red marker(Cherry, look out below, I'm gonna die, etc.). It was topped by a cardboard shark fin (a "sky shark") and we only did it to guys on their first jump out of school. New guys who were experienced jumpers didn't play. We also restricted wearing the maroon beret to guys who had completed jump school until some dickbag complained he was being unfairly treated because it is organization headwear. I'm still bitter about that because it may be technically correct, it is a "thing", something you EARN. We also made them do pushups anytime they entered or exited the head shed. 10 at a time, not unlike what they would see at jump school. Alas, that went away with the beret issue.

Little things matter and connect us with our past. They are a point of pride and can exist without physical damage.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 25, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> We also restricted wearing the maroon beret to guys who had completed jump school until some dickbag complained he was being unfairly treated because it is organization headwear.



Ugh.  That guy must have been a barrel of laughs to be around - "It's not fair!"  Former Minnesota Gopher's head football coach still uses the phrase, "Fair is where you buy a pig in the fall".  Love that!


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## AWP (Jan 25, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Ugh.  That guy must have been a barrel of laughs to be around - "It's not fair!"  Former Minnesota Gopher's head football coach still uses the phrase, "Fair is where you buy a pig in the fall".  Love that!



We never found out who did it and I was out a few months later. I remember as an LT being forced to uphold a policy I disagreed with (I was on the fence if one of my guys did it), but told my Det. we had an order to follow even if we didn't like it; I reminded my NCO's they had standards within their sections. For some reason my non-qualed soldiers only wore the beret to formations...

Unless I'm wrong, that's what I recall. @ke4gde may remember something different.


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## nobodythank you (Jan 25, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> @ke4gde may remember something different.


 IIRC that all came about after the transition by Gen. Shithead to the now infamous black beret. Prior to that it was never too much of an issue, at least from my lowly vantage point. I never recalled any Joes bitching about beret or no beret. I always attributed most issues with uniforms to the pogues at STARC- (base command). 

However, funny thing, I recall seeing a leg at jump school come from an airborne unit, and wore his organizational headgear (beret) to the formation to report in for jump school. A pack of blackhats immediately descended on him and began his physical routine in earnest. Although I wore my unit patch on my sleeve, I was never singled out more than any other random joe. The beret was held sacred for a time.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jan 25, 2016)

CDG I'm planning on participating because the 5% of me that didn't want to be a stick in the mud won the argument. I'll take it for what it is and try not to dick punch anyone during the process. 
I think the other thing that makes it difficult is how much older I am than so many others here.


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## Brill (Jan 25, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> We never found out who did it and I was out a few months later. I remember as an LT being forced to uphold a policy I disagreed with (I was on the fence if one of my guys did it), but told my Det. we had an order to follow even if we didn't like it; I reminded my NCO's they had standards within their sections. For some reason my non-qualed soldiers only wore the beret to formations...
> 
> Unless I'm wrong, that's what I recall. @ke4gde may remember something different.



You guys wore hats?


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## Gunz (Jan 25, 2016)

The beret thing got outta hand.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jan 25, 2016)

Agoge said:


> I am sure there are "fringe" elements in all the branches and units that carry things too far. The line between doing something to welcome someone into a brotherhood is a far leap from doing some of the things which are dangerous to one's health. It's those things I disagree with and believe need to be stopped.



The pure lunacy of the whole event, was that it was recorded; including the big grin by the mallet swinger. With the current administration's view of the military, this could get some major traction. Wonder if this will make it as a political topic during this election year?


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 25, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> The pure lunacy of the whole event, was that it was recorded; including the big grin by the mallet swinger. With the current administration's view of the military, this could get some major traction. Wonder if this will make it as a political topic during this election year?



Funny you posted this, I was just looking the incident up - it was really bugging me.  Turns out it is from 2012

Soldier who hit colleague with wooden mallet is disciplined

_A Fort Bragg spokesperson told NBC News that this event was “not in keeping with military service."
The soldier will be fined, receive an administrative punishment and will receive a letter of reprimand in his permanent file. He must also write an apology letter and will be relieved of his responsibilities.
This is a career-ending punishment._


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## Red Flag 1 (Jan 25, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Funny you posted this, I was just looking the incident up - it was really bugging me.  Turns out it is from 2012
> 
> Soldier who hit colleague with wooden mallet is disciplined
> 
> ...



Great research Ooh-Rah! 

The mallett swinging idiot got what he earned for that little stunt. I hope the young solider had no lasting effects or complications. That kind of blow, can result in a chest injury that breaks all the ribs away from the sternum, or a Flail Chest injury. What at idiotic thing to do,..............but that's just me


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## DA SWO (Jan 25, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Funny you posted this, I was just looking the incident up - it was really bugging me.  Turns out it is from 2012
> 
> Soldier who hit colleague with wooden mallet is disciplined
> 
> ...


Needs to lose a stripe as part of the career ending punishment.
I wonder how the mallet tradition started with that unit?


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## parallel (Jan 25, 2016)

I literally required stitches above my left eye following my Shellback initiation. I never seen it as hazing but all in good fun. I was a rebel Wog and had swiped a Shillelagh from a Shellback while crawling by him. As I turned to make my escape he yelled "Rebel Wog" and the guy pouring day old refried beans and rice on everyone from a metal pitcher turned and the pitcher whacked me right in the face.  Every station after that someone would ask; "hey... is that real blood?" :wall:


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 25, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Funny you posted this, I was just looking the incident up - it was really bugging me.  Turns out it is from 2012
> 
> Soldier who hit colleague with wooden mallet is disciplined
> 
> ...



I wonder how many soldiers that 1SG saw punished for some form of misconduct, meanwhile he broke regulations/policy and assaulted soldiers who were being promoted. Setting such a great example for a young NCO to follow. Reduced in rank to SPC/E4 and mandatory retirement would be a more fitting punishment IMHO.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 25, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Needs to lose a stripe as part of the career ending punishment.



Nope.

http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/weird/2014/03/07/1985028/

_The Army says Sgt. First Class Carpenter gets to keep his E-7 status, but “he’s been transferred to another base and is no longer directly responsible for soldiers.”
Ken Roach told Newschannel 3 he received two phone calls tonight–one from Brigadier General Charles Flynn, the Deputy Commanding General of the 82nd Airborne, and Col. Patrick J. Hynes, the Brigade Commander.
Roach says both men apologized and expressed regret for what his son experienced._


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## AWP (Jan 26, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Nope.
> 
> http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/weird/2014/03/07/1985028/
> 
> ...



Flynn's now the commander of the 25th Infantry Division and Hynes was relieved of brigade command with CID investigating "a single criminal incident." I didn't see Carpenter's fate, but I didn't dig much either.


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## x SF med (Jan 26, 2016)

Back when I went to Jump School, everyone got blood wings, it was a rite of passage, but we sure as hell didn't get it done with a mallet, it just felt like it after the 3rd punch from a buddy...:wall::blkeye:


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## Devildoc (Jan 26, 2016)

x SF med said:


> Back when I went to Jump School, everyone got blood wings, it was a rite of passage, but we sure as hell didn't get it done with a mallet, it just felt like it after the 3rd punch from a buddy...:wall::blkeye:



When we were awarded our FMF qual pins we had the option of having them "blood pinned."  I did; it is (well, was) tradition.  Some didn't.  I have hesitated thus far of bringing this up because the Marine leadership that did it/condoned it, some are still in.  But since I forgot their names, the date, and location, I suppose it's all good.

I will say of those who chose to not participate, there was no 'mark' or anything held against them, and we all went drinking afterward.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jan 26, 2016)

if it worth saying, it will be quoted.


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## Devildoc (Jan 26, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> It was a pretty tough morning. The really tough part was my wife. For some reason, they picked the day of out 25th wedding anniversary:wall::dead:. Surviving that part was no easier than the breakout hill. It just cost me a pretty penny in silver to set things right again.



Respect.  Hat is off, Sir.  I have been in far more trouble for far less.


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## DA SWO (Jan 26, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Nope.
> 
> http://www.wtsp.com/story/news/weird/2014/03/07/1985028/
> 
> ...


When did SFC's become 1st Sgt's?
The GOMR should prevent any additional promotions, and he (at worst) leaves the Army as a SFC.


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## Ranger Psych (Jan 26, 2016)

Acting 1SG.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 16, 2018)

This article was written by Jarred Taylor, a member of the Drinkin' Bros / Article 15 Clothing team and former TACP.  I thought it was well-written and well-argued.



> Rituals like this have existed within our ranks and specialized units for years. The sad thing is, they are disappearing fast because of the word _hazing_. The problem is, hazing is grotesquely mislabeled and misunderstood by our senior leadership. Anytime the word is merely mentioned there is an immediate knee jerk reaction. It all stems from leadership afraid to lose their job from a congressional inquiry. But the real question here is _what is the definition of hazing?_




So what is "hazing" to you?


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## Devildoc (Jan 16, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> This article was written by Jarred Taylor, a member of the Drinkin' Bros / Article 15 Clothing team and former TACP.  I thought it was well-written and well-argued.
> 
> So what is "hazing" to you?



Good article.  I think defining 'hazing' is like defining 'art': you know it when you see it.  I guess by letter of the definition, some things I endured (and likely ALL of us endured...) were hazing, but I always thought of it as having some hidden meaning, steeped in history/tradition, or a rite of initiation.  Although some of it was stupid, it was never demeaning or humiliating.  Even as Bull (Ensign), I knew it came from a time aboard ship when everyone needed some light-hearted fun and it carried over 200 years.  It was bullshit and I hated some of it, but I knew what it was about.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 16, 2018)

To me hazing breaks from the established efforts to add one to the team and instead separates them. On an ODA there is the phrase that you isolate, then insulate. I think that is an important aspect, but not hazing. You are isolated but left out, expected to be at events but kept kind of on the outside. It creates an I retesting dynamic and once you are Insulated  in the team room they become everything to you.

Hazing to me has no purpose. Except for, “it’s always been done that way.” I think that if you go through something tough, there is something to be said for joining the club, but it should be purposeful, rather than sadistic. It is like art, you know it when you see it.

I once witnessed a cadre make a guy low crawl over a 100M to retrieve a non tied down canteen, through gravel, when it was over 100 degrees. That was sadistic, served no purpose, and caused physical injury. That cadre later had his tabbed revoked. That was hazing. Forced alcohol consumption, is hazing. Blood wings/stripes? I’m not so sure.


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## CDG (Jan 16, 2018)

I also am of the "You know it when you see it" thought.  Nothing wrong with using PT as punishment, but it needs to fit the infraction, be conducted safely, and have a point to it. To echo what TLDR said, something like forced alcohol consumption is always hazing.  Same with cutting, branding, or anything else that leaves a permanent scar/mark intentionally.


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## Crimson (Jan 16, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> This article was written by Jarred Taylor, a member of the Drinkin' Bros / Article 15 Clothing team and former TACP.  I thought it was well-written and well-argued.
> 
> So what is "hazing" to you?



A lack of a teachable moment. Sadism, like TLDR20 said. Doing something just to do it. Breaking down without building back up.

Those are all thoughts that come to mind. However I completely agree with the "its like defining art" metaphor.

I have seen a lot of "hazing" in my time, and there is a VERY fine line between achieving a purpose, and just doing it because someone did it to you.

And to touch on the forced alcohol consumption...the most idiotic, purposeless, criminal bs imaginable.


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## AWP (Feb 22, 2018)

We have a couple of threads on hazing, so this wins the update. There's a new DoD Instruction out, 1020.03, dated Feb. 8. Going through the list, I was hazed and want to know where's my disability. Pay me!

3.5. HAZING. A form of harassment that includes conduct through which Service members or DoD employees, without a proper military or other governmental purpose but with a nexus to military Service, physically or psychologically injures or creates a risk of physical or psychological injury to Service members for the purpose of: initiation into, admission into, affiliation with, change in status or position within, or a condition for continued membership in any military or DoD civilian organization. Hazing can be conducted through the use of electronic devices or communications, and by other means including social media, as well as in person.

a. Hazing is evaluated by a reasonable person standard and includes, but is not limited to, the following when performed without a proper military or other governmental purpose:

(1) Any form of initiation or congratulatory act that involves physically striking another person in any manner or threatening to do the same;
(2) Pressing any object into another person’s skin, regardless of whether it pierces the skin, such as “pinning” or “tacking on” of rank insignia, aviator wings, jump wings, diver insignia, badges, medals, or any other object;
(3) Oral or written berating of another person with the purpose of belittling or humiliating;
(4) Encouraging another person to engage in illegal, harmful, demeaning or dangerous acts;
(5) Playing abusive or malicious tricks;
(6) Branding, handcuffing, duct taping, tattooing, shaving, greasing, or painting another person;
(7) Subjecting another person to excessive or abusive use of water:
(8) Forcing another person to consume food, alcohol, drugs, or any other substance; and
(9) Soliciting, coercing, or knowingly permitting another person to solicit or coerce acts of hazing.


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## Devildoc (Feb 22, 2018)

Lol...I was a victim of 7 of the 9.....

I wonder if I can scam the VA for PTSD for it.....hmmmm......


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## Gunz (Feb 22, 2018)

AWP said:


> ...3.5. HAZING. A form of harassment... that...*psychologically injures* ...



Oh God, more wait time at the VA. So it is written, so it shall be done.

Wait until the SSD/VA benefit specialists at your local ambulance-chaser firm (Dewey, Cheatum & Howe)* get hold of 1020.03.



*Ref: The Three Stooges


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## DC (Feb 23, 2018)

I won’t reveal camradic ceremonies for achievements due to the possibility of incrimination or death🌝


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