# best 7.62 NATO for civilian (home) purchase?



## arizonaguide (Oct 19, 2008)

I'm thinking about a private purchase of an assault rifle in 7.62 NATO (.308).
Anyone have any good recomendations???  Thanks in advance, folks!:)
:cool:


----------



## Cecil (Oct 19, 2008)

I've have a Springfield M1A1 that I absolutely love.


----------



## redneck (Oct 19, 2008)

I agree! M1A/M14 civillian copies would be my vote,with springfield armory being the best,in my opinion. I wish I had never gotten rid of mine


----------



## Trip_Wire (Oct 19, 2008)

arizonaguide said:


> I'm thinking about a private purchase of an assault rifle in 7.62 NATO (.308).
> Anyone have any good recomendations???  Thanks in advance, folks!:)
> :cool:



If I were you, I wouldn't use the word 'Assault' when talking about a semi-auto rifle. It plays right into the hands of those that would take this type of rifle off the market and out of our hands. 

I never grew to like the M-14 rifle, perhaps because the first time I jumped with one it broke at the small of the stock on landing. (It was jumped stock down, as the barrel wasn't supported like the M-1 Garand, which was jumped barrel down.) Nor do I think the M-14s made by Springfield for the civilian market are as good as those made for the military.

Actually, if I were buying a semi-auto rifle I would rather purchase an M-1 Garand in 30.06 caliber that was in good condition. There is also the ArmaLite AR-10 rifles in 308 caliber as well.

http://www.gunblast.com/ArmaLite_AR10.htm

My choice in .308 is the HK 91 with both stocks. Mine is fitted with the HK sniper stock and the HK range finding sniper scope, just like the HK sniper model of the G-3 sniper rifle. I have the same rifle (Model 93) in 5.56 caliber as well. No sniper stock or HK scope on it though.

I don't think you can find these new now; however, one might find a used HK 91 on the market, or I think there is one look a like one made here in the USA.


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 19, 2008)

Yeah, I miss my Garand. I sold it when I left Alaska. I like the 30-06 round okay, but I'm kinda leaning toward .308. Plus I really want something magazine fed. I've heard good things about the AR-10. But I also really like the operation of the M-1/M-14.
I wish they made a Ruger Mini-30 in .308 rather than 7.62x39!!! That would be my PERFECT answer dream-come-true!!
:cool:

I guess I should add I'm kinda looking for something "carbine" size...maybe a little shorter than the old Garand was.



Trip_Wire said:


> If I were you, I wouldn't use the word 'Assault' when talking about a semi-auto rifle. It plays right into the hands of those that would take this type of rifle off the market and out of our hands.


 
Good point, Trip! Especially the way this election could go...that's why I'm looking ASAP!

Also I'll check out that HK.

Thanks.


----------



## x SF med (Oct 19, 2008)

FN-FAL in .308 - a bit heavier than most  rifles of the same 'type' (word not to be used that begins with "a") rifles...


----------



## HOLLiS (Oct 19, 2008)

I guess I will join the pack and reiterate that TW's comments on calling a rifle anything but a rifle is just "right on"

I really like the M1A1 ( probably from positive reinforcement from my Gunny when I was a boot)

I have a A10, FN FAL and a G3.  The G3 is the least expensive.  

Other factor I like about the M1A1 is the whack factor.  The good old butt stroke to the chops.  Less than lethal and very effective. 

The A10, I am mix.  If I sold any, it would be the last three, again I am just stuck on the M1A1.


----------



## Trip_Wire (Oct 19, 2008)

x SF med said:


> FN-FAL in .308 - a bit heavier than most  rifles of the same 'type' (word not to be used that begins with "a") rifles...



Yes, the semi-auto civilian model of the FN-FAL is a good choice as well. The only criticism I have noticed for this rifle was on the full auto assault rifle model, which when fired on full auto was uncontrollable. The M-14 shared this same fault, as do most all rifles in that caliber when fired on full auto.

Have you given any thought to acquiring an AK-47 or AR-15 rifle.carbine for CQC and a bolt action sniper rifle for 'other' situations? I would suspect that in your AO, there would be the need for a flat shooting rifle, that can reach out and 'touch' something or someone at a long distance. Also never sell the old 12 GA shotgun in pump or semi-auto short for CQC. The racking of the old Remington 870 usually strikes fear, in the hearts of 'evil doers.' 

There are many flat shooting very accurate bolt action rifles on the market that fit that bill.  Many police and military designed sniper rifles can be purchased and used by civilians. There are versions in 7.62, .300 Winchester Magnum and up to .50 Cal. I tend to favor the .300 Win. Mag. I'm sure that some of the military trained snipers can speak up on these types of rifles. There is even an Armalite AR-30 in .300 Win. Mag. :doh:

http://webarms.com/Gun Suppliers/Armalite/armalite ar-30.htm

Here are some general interest items on sniper type rifles.:

Remington 700Police DM .300 Winchester Magnum


http://www.snipercountry.com/InReviews/Rem700PoliceDM_300WM.asp



http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/Sniper-rifles

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qQnA1EHQjZI"]YouTube - SAKO TRG42 300 Winchester Magnum[/ame]


----------



## pardus (Oct 19, 2008)

x SF med said:


> FN-FAL in .308 - a bit heavier than most  rifles of the same 'type' (word not to be used that begins with "a") rifles...



The FN is the best 7.62mm battle rifle ever fielded IMO.

You won't do any better than the ones here...

http://www.dsarms.com/

:2c:


----------



## HOLLiS (Oct 19, 2008)

I discounted the FA factor because of the request was for civilian use.   If FA is a factor, the H&K would be the way.   For the M14, FA was not very useful and very very hard to control.  

Also there is the SR 25 (Stoner),  The big negative is the Price.  About twice as much as a M1A1.   

The G3 is very recoil friendly, but does have it's own unique problem in a dusty enviroment, the recoil blast.   Also a little hard on the cases if you reload.


----------



## Trip_Wire (Oct 19, 2008)

HOLLiS said:


> I discounted the FA factor because of the request was for civilian use.   If FA is a factor, the H&K would be the way.   For the M14, FA was not very useful and very very hard to control.
> 
> Also there is the SR 25 (Stoner),  The big negative is the Price.  About twice as much as a M1A1.
> 
> The G3 is very recoil friendly, but does have it's own unique problem in a dusty enviroment, the recoil blast.   Also a little hard on the cases if you reload.



Hollis:

I don't think FA is a big factor, since it is for a civilian's use. As you point out most all FA rifles in 7.62 caliber, suck in FA mode.

Although as I recall there was a FA heavy barreled M-14 (With a different stock.) around at one point. I think the idea was to sort of make a replacement for the BAR in the Infantry Rifle Sqd. (IMO, this was a failed attempt, as the BAR was a better weapon in that role.) I used the BAR in combat in Korea. It was my favorite weapon there, next to the M-1 Garand. As a matter of fact, I think there is also a semi-auto version of the BAR sold on the civilian market in both 30.06 and 76.2. ;)

Yes the G-3 Battle rifle and the HK 91 do handle recoil a little better and your right, they both tend to put a crease in the brass when ejected. Many also complain about the short stocks on both the G-3/91. I also had the trigger worked over on my HK 91. It's more like the M-14 trigger now, which I did like, as it was like the M-1 Garand's trigger.

The other thing I liked about the HK91/G-3 was the HK clip on scope mount. I have both types the HK 91 has the military Zeiss Range finder variable sniper scope and the HK 93 has an Aimpoint Red Dot (Older version) mounted on the clip on. They both kept there 'zero' when taken off and put back on. (I also kept a Redfield wide view 3X9 mounted on a 3rd HK clip on mount for use on the HK 93.) I used the HK93 when I was leading the SWAT team, etc.

It is my understanding that finding a true HK91 or HK93 is difficult and expensive now. I thought they were both VERY good weapons for civilian usage. I preferred my HK-93 over the AR-15s, even though it was a bit heavier. (Note: At the time many of the currant M-4 type weapons and 'goodies' were not invented yet.)  

When I did entries I used the HK collapsible stock and the regular fixed stock when on the security element or general use.


----------



## HOLLiS (Oct 19, 2008)

TW,  Let may add, if your will, Most scope mounts for the M1A1 suck.   They tend to raise the scope too high.   G3 has the advantage there.  

So far,  I can do well with iron sights.   I tend to prefer the KISS principle.  Less is actually better.   but, not less in the number of rifles owned.

I guess we should ask the original poster, the intended use for the rifle.


----------



## Trip_Wire (Oct 19, 2008)

HOLLiS said:


> TW,  Let may add, if your will, Most scope mounts for the M1A1 suck.   They tend to raise the scope too high.   G3 has the advantage there.
> 
> So far,  I can do well with iron sights.   I tend to prefer the KISS principle.  Less is actually better.   but, not less in the number of rifles owned.
> 
> I guess we should ask the original poster, the intended use for the rifle.




I agree with the scope mounts for both the M-1 Garand sniper riles and the M-14. The HK 91/G3 was high as well; however, one could use the 'iron' sights with the scope mounted.

I bought both these rifles when I was an active LEO. I fixed up the HK 91 for long range usage to supplement my snipers, etc. (Also since Carter was President at the time ... survival.)

The HK 93 was the rifle I carried on the SWAT team. I kept the Aimpoint mounted on it because for CQC, it worked better for me, than iron sights, especially at night or dark areas in a house.

The 3x9 Redfield scope was in my ready bag for quick switching for AO's and situations that called for better viewing and or better ID of the suspects, etc. My department covered King County, WA which is a large very diverse area, with contract cities, suburbs, rural areas heavily forested areas to large high mountains, etc. I found that a scoped rifle was better in some situations, where CQC wasn't a big factor.

King County:

http://maps.google.com/maps?client=...um=1&sa=X&oi=geocode_result&resnum=1&ct=title


----------



## HOLLiS (Oct 19, 2008)

I live about 4 hours South of you, West of Salem.   There are lots of really great choices out there.  I believe the shooter is more important than the rifle being used.  It would be nice to see what he eventually decides on.  I have been thinking of putting a scope on my AR 180.  I took it off of the AR 10.  Old habit of sighting over the barrel and not using the iron sights allows for a wider field of view.   I have a halo sight, it seems pretty slick when I played with it.  Great way of surveying the area while knowing what the rifle is targeted on.  Sights/scopes generally seems to add to tunnel vision and can slow response time.  I agree scopes are really beneficial under the right circumstance.  



I probably need to play with some of the new stuff.


----------



## 08steeda (Oct 19, 2008)

I own a Spring Field M1A Supermatch!

It ROCKS, and really a solid piece of hardware!

IMHO - This is a great weapon to own and the reliability, availability of parts and accessories and the fact that it is Made in the USA is why I have it! It is pretty darn accurate, especially for those dry Arizona long shots!!!

So I don't think can go wrong with a SpringField! I am with Cecil on this one!


----------



## 08steeda (Oct 19, 2008)

FYI - the Springfield Scope mount (not the scout variant) is pretty darn solid. especially if you do the install correctly. I had Springfield do mine! Plus I have A.R.M.S. quick release rings (zero loss of accuracy) and they are medium height. I can still use the iron sights as well! Although field of view is a lot narrower. It is a solid setup and is damn near zero if not zeroed every time I fire it. 

Matter of fact I have not had to adjust it but a click or two (at the most) the last 4 times I have been to the range from 100 - 400 meters. I do not have a range longer than 400M anywhere near me!

I also agree it is more about the shooter. My brother owns a SAKO in .308 that is tricked out and I regularly clean his clock. But then he never wore a uniform or had the privilege of learning from some scary accurate shooters!!!

But I am an amateur compared to most the folks here! I only shot competitively (long rifle) for the base team for 2 seasons!


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 20, 2008)

Springfield Armory NM M14, worth it's weight in gold;)


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 20, 2008)

Awsome responses guys!  I knew I'd get good advice here.
I totally agree about the 12ga being the choice for most CQ stuff.
I guess I should clarify more about the need.  What I want to find/figure out is a "carbine" sized semi-auto in .308 rather than .223.  If they made the M1 or M14 in a carbine (like a ruger Mini-30 or SKS) that would be perfect. The AR-10 may fit this bill, if I can find a shorter barrel.  I've got a .40SW (Browning HiPower), and will be getting a 12ga very soon, but I also want something carbine sized and magazine-fed that the wife can use...yet I still could use as a good "patrol" rifle for possible future (hazardous) desert search and rescue work along the Arizona Border, etc.  I guess the .223 would be "okay" but prefer the whollop of the .308! 
Thanks folks, in advance for the good advice!


----------



## pardus (Oct 20, 2008)

arizonaguide said:


> What I want to find/figure out is a "carbine" sized semi-auto in .308 rather than .223.



Look at my link.


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 20, 2008)

Will do Pardus, thanks!


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 20, 2008)

http://www.dsarms.com/SA58-FAL-PARATactical-Carbine-308-Cal/productinfo/SA58TACP/
Yes, I like it.  THIS might be managable by my wife!!
;)

And price isn't tooooo bad either!!!


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 21, 2008)

:)Hey, that gets me thinking...does anyone know if they make a shortened (and civilian)version of the M14 similar to what they called the "tanker" version of the Garand?  (even though I know they never actually had a "tanker" version of the Garand in WW2...I think it was a Springfield Marketing idea).  Has anyone shortened a M14 barrel?  Or, maybe do you guys think is there a "hot load" for the 7.62x39 that would be comparable to the .308, that could be fired in the Ruger Mini-30?
Thanks folks!

I need to write Ruger and find out why the mini-30 isn't the .308 it SHOULD be!!!


----------



## Trip_Wire (Oct 21, 2008)

arizonaguide said:


> :)Hey, that gets me thinking...does anyone know if they make a shortened (and civilian)version of the M14 similar to what they called the "tanker" version of the Garand?  (even though I know they never actually had a "tanker" version of the Garand in WW2...I think it was a Springfield Marketing idea).  Has anyone shortened a M14 barrel?  Or, maybe do you guys think is there a "hot load" for the 7.62x39 that would be comparable to the .308, that could be fired in the Ruger Mini-30?
> Thanks folks!
> 
> I need to write Ruger and find out why the mini-30 isn't the .308 it SHOULD be!!!



Military Version:

Yes, there is the Springfield SOCOM II (M-14) in 7.62. ;)

Link:

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory28.php

Civilian Version:

http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory05.php


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 21, 2008)

*Thatssssssss IT!!! (perfect!!!)*



Trip_Wire said:


> Civilian Version:
> http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory05.php


:cool:

THAT'S IT!!!!!! That's what I'm looking for!
Thanks, Trip! 
I knew I could count on you guys!!! SWEEEEEET!!!
Now, just have to get it squared away before the inaugeration.
;)


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 21, 2008)

Dang, in looking closer I don't see why I can't buy the Mil version!!!
Awsome!!! (now, where's that damn credit card!!!)
:)


----------



## Cecil (Oct 21, 2008)

This one is so nice.... held one the other day at a Gun Show...


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 21, 2008)

No Kidding!  Seems to me like the best of All worlds.
I can't say this with any "real world" authority (except growing up Hunting in Alaska) but that seems like it should be the choice for the SCAR (did I say that right?) for every soldier and LEO...but that's just an uninformed (Air Force) *stupid-sentimental *and gut feeling opinion.
Anyway, I sure as hell want one!!!!
THAT's the "Mini-30" that Ruger SHOULD have made!!!

Waaaaaaa, I want it NOW!!!!


----------



## HOLLiS (Oct 21, 2008)

I had a socom and still have a Mini 30.  Personally I prefer the standard M1A1.  For a shorty in .308, I have a AR 10.  The mini 30, is basically in a different class because of ammo it shoots.  

The M1A1 is a very capable reach out and touch someone with iron sites.


----------



## 08steeda (Oct 21, 2008)

Yeah the Ruger Mini's are just not nearly as accurate or as strong as the M1A chassis. Although the weapon is a lot of fun to shoot. The accuracy is sub-standard. Many fans of the Mini's don't shoot them beyond 200. 

I used to have a Mini-14 and loved it. Then I got my first QUALITY AR style firearm and then my M1A Super-Match from Springfield. Now I understand what all the hype is about!

Ruger makes a decent weapon! It just wasn't designed with the level of accuracy I prefer.

FYI - There was a place down in Texas (Accuracy International???) which would take your Mini-14/30 and Accurize it and guarantee sub MOA accuracy. But it cost like 1200 - 1400 to do it! Which seems crazy considering you have to supply the weapon!


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 21, 2008)

Hollis,
Why did you prefer the AR-10 over the Socom?
And (if ya have time) is the M1A1 because of the longer range?
I loved my old Garand, but had always wished it was shorter, and .308.
Didn't like the stripper-clips. Liked the old dependable M1 type action.

I'm thinking of something that will be good (with a red-dot sight) out to 500+/- (old eyes remember!)...in the <$2K range, that's magazine fed and that even the (tiny)wife could handle...and all this before January's innaugeration!:uhh:

It will also be supplimented with a scoped .300 Weatherby (around next fall's birthday!
...another silly sentimental Alaska rig!)  Long story on the Weatherby, but sufice to say I traded it (in my stupid youth) for the M1Garand, and to this day my Dad has never forgiven me!!! (with good reason!).  Especially since NOW I have NEITHER!:doh:

:)


----------



## HOLLiS (Oct 21, 2008)

arizonaguide said:


> Hollis,
> Why did you prefer the AR-10 over the Socom?
> And (if ya have time) is the M1A1 because of the longer range?
> I loved my old Garand, but had always wished it was shorter, and .308.
> ...



The AR 10 also has a collapsible stock.   As I mentioned earlier I was originally trained on the M14.   I don't mind a longer rifle, it really depends on use.  I have a number of choices in my collection, so it is not a big issue on trying to find one rifle that can fulfill multiple purposes.  I have several Garands,  IMHO, they are great rifles.  There is the BM59 (?) Beretta made a Garand conversion,  box magazine and in .308.   I had one (civilian kit/not made by Beretta), but having two M1A1s at the time, I did not see the need to keep it.  

Realistically, I am retired and my purpose of use is fun base.  I also hunt, so I have rifles/pistols that fit those needs.  

Other advantage, I have been in the firearms business, so I get to play with a lot of cool stuff.


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 21, 2008)

Thanks Hollis.  I had never heard of the conversion, but I remember a "tanker" Garand by Springfield...but it still used the stripper-clips.  It's a challenge, especially since I want it small/simple for the wife to use it, yet good punch out to 500+/-! 

But, like you say..there's the "fun" issue as well, and half of THAT is the search and learning curve...and teaching her when the time comes.
I knew this would be the place to learn...ALL you folks on this forum are awsome!!!!
:cool:


----------



## HOLLiS (Oct 21, 2008)

This is a BM59 kit gun that I had.


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 21, 2008)

Yeah, that fit's the bill!
It's probably alot of sentimental value influencing my decision also.
I just always loved that M1 style action/feel!
:)


----------



## HOLLiS (Oct 21, 2008)

arizonaguide said:


> Yeah, that fit's the bill!
> It's probably alot of sentimental value influencing my decision also.
> I just always loved that M1 style action/feel!
> :)



For the cost, then get a socom.    Basically the M1A1 and Garand is the same in that regards.


----------



## pardus (Oct 21, 2008)

Why do you want a 7.62 NATO for your wife?

It's a big round with a big kick.

A 5.56 will get to 500 without trouble.


----------



## 08steeda (Oct 21, 2008)

Plus the M1A - even the Socom is heavy!


----------



## Trip_Wire (Oct 21, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> Why do you want a 7.62 NATO for your wife?
> 
> It's a big round with a big kick.
> 
> A 5.56 will get to 500 without trouble.



Yes, many who started their military shooting careers remember a black eye from the back of your thumb when shooting the M-1 or M-14, as well as the M-1 thumb, during rifle inspections. :doh: (I Never did the M-1 thumb.)

The biggest reason that I can think of for preferring the 7.62 NATO over the 5.56 round is the 'knock down' power, as well as a little flatter shooting at longer ranges. Many in the Special Operations community, have voiced a need for this cartridge for those very reasons. As I recall the SCAR rifle, is a module rifle that can be used in either 5.56 and 7.62 for those reasons as well.

http://www.defense-update.com/products/s/scar.htm

Arizona's terrain IMO, would justify a hard hitting flat shooting round such as the 7.62 or .300 Win. Magnum over a 5.56 round.

I'll agree with you on the recoil for most slight women, especially those that don't shoot often, it could cause a lot of anticipation of that recoil and misses.

Another factor in the choice of rifle calibers is the weight of loaded magazines, if you need to carry a 'basic load,' and especially if you have to hump them any distance. :uhh:

If it were me, I'd buy a good 'battle rifle' in 5.56, from the many selection's of M-4 types on the market or an AK-47 variant and use the bolt action .300 Magnum he apparently already has for long distance shooting.

My guess that if the xhit hits the fan, the M-4 type with the 5.56 will better serve him than the 7.62 for most of his needs. Also easier on the wifes shoulder, etc. :2c:


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 21, 2008)

Why not get another bolt gun for the wife?  Then just put in the extra coin into a quality stock to reduce the weight and recoil.  

If you want a mil type gun, here is a manufacturer that makes "modern" versions of the Lee Enfield bored in 7.62, they are on my "wish list". 

http://www.australianinternationalarms.com.au/product.htm


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 22, 2008)

Trip_Wire said:


> The biggest reason that I can think of for preferring the 7.62 NATO over the 5.56 round is the 'knock down' power, as well as a little flatter shooting at longer ranges. Many in the Special Operations community, have voiced a need for this cartridge for those very reasons. As I recall the SCAR rifle, is a module rifle that can be used in either 5.56 and 7.62 for those reasons as well.



Exactly!  I don't have the true combat experience (ex-USAF)...but I do have dangerous large animal experience from Alaska.  I have seen the difference between the "stopping power" of a .22 (5.56) or .243 round, versus a full .30 caliber round (both .308 and .300 Weatherby) on various animals (up to and inc. bears), which I equate as being similar to body armor/cover...especially at 200+++yds.  Plus, I really like the dependability of the M1 style action...in addition to the "sentimental" value and ruggedness of the M1 style.

The short version is because I hope to never have to use it in anger, but if I do it will probably be somewhere between 0 yds out to 500+/-, and in a probably "urban" (carbine-type) environment.  

I do also plan on it's possible use for desert carry on S&R here in Arizona...and that would PROBABLY be a situation where it's used also as a fairly close (<500yd) range "defensive" weapon against possible Coyote/7.62x39 or 5.56 attack (god forbid?);).  And as a easy to carry shoulder arm on Wildlife Photo expeditions, also here in Arizona and summer in Alaska...(bear/mt lion/angry pot growers = .308)..and probably wouldn't freak out a Forrest Ranger as much as an AR-15 or AK-47!

And lastly, it should not be toooo crazy-big for the wife to shoot (for fun). Full size M1 or M14 is probably too big for that (and I admit I could be "rationalizing" this for the shorter barrel!)  I do wonder about that "critical volocity" concept regarding .308 barrel length...and will research that.  Maybe a minimum of 16" is necessary.

But, again..THANKS everyone for the info and advice.  At least I've come up with some EXCELLENT options thanks to you folks!!!
:cool:


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 22, 2008)

Or, to just say it with one of my favorite quotes:


P. Beck said:


> I require two things of my weapons: 1) Reliable as sunrise.  This is first and foremost. Non-negotiable.  2) As accurate as possible without violating requirement #1. Must shoot Minute-Of-Hajji, day or night, rain or shine, world without end, amen. 3) The round has got to be able to do the job when it gets there. Is there anyone who retains any lasting doubts about 7.62x51mm in this regard?
> 
> Truth is, I have seen enough aluminum gim-cracks, plastic goo-gaws and carbon-fiber whizz-bangs for one life-time.  Enough to know that the summbitches asking me to bet my life on it won't be anywhere to be found when it gets upgefucht. I'd rather carry a few extra pounds and have the ***** work when I need it, than go light with something that fails at random intervals.


Amen!:cool:

Plus being a card carrying Union Carpenter (local 408) I HAVE to agree with a guy that says this:



P. Beck said:


> I guess it could have something to do with me carrying a 24 oz. framing hammer on my kit.
> 
> http://www.medfordtools.com/hammers/ds24.html
> **** a bunch of tomahawks.


That's what I'm talkin' about!!!

PBeck, If you aren't from Alaska...Bro, you gotta have relatives there!


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 23, 2008)

Hmmmm, this also looks nice:
http://www.hk-usa.com/images/shared/HK417 Product Sheet.pdf
Probably out of my budget/purchasing authority though...
:cool:


----------



## 8'Duece (Oct 23, 2008)

Cecil said:


> This one is so nice.... held one the other day at a Gun Show...



Just not sure of a 16" barrel chambered in .308 :uhh:

Anyone elses thoughts on this matter ?


----------



## pardus (Oct 23, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> Just not sure of a 16" barrel chambered in .308 :uhh:
> 
> Anyone elses thoughts on this matter ?



Going to kick/jump like a mule, personally I think it's a bad idea. :2c:
Whats the point in having a round to shoot long distance then use it in a rifle that is designed for close work? :uhh:

If you want knock down, close up get a AK47.
If you want long range get an FN or M1A1.
If you want an easy handling rifle that can shoot 500m get an M series :2c:


----------



## HOLLiS (Oct 23, 2008)

This is the one that I had, it had a recoil suppressor.   I don't remember it being unpleasant to shoot.   I thought it was very controllable.  Also one can get a US Gov,  detachable suppressor for the M1A1, but it requires the bayonet lug to use.


----------



## pardus (Oct 23, 2008)

HOLLiS said:


> This is the one that I had, it had a recoil suppressor.   I don't remember it being unpleasant to shoot.   I thought it was very controllable.  Also one can get a US Gov,  detachable suppressor for the M1A1, but it requires the bayonet lug to use.
> 
> http://i89.photobu][/quote]
> 
> Interesting, thanks for that.


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 23, 2008)

It's kinda got to be a Bear stopper, for summer Alaska Photo stuff as well.
.308 is pretty much the Minimum for that.  (although I admit 12ga is better...but 12ga not good out to 500+/-)  I know I'm asking a LOT of one rifle.  But, I think that would do it. (plus "sentimental" value):)

I do notice the SCAR (7.62) barrel is 19.7" though...that may be minimum to reach max volocity...but the FN/FAL is 16.25" (same as the Springfield).
I still like this one though:
http://springfield-armory.primediaoutdoors.com/SPstory05.php
or the above Hollisshooter!

We'll see how the chips($) are between now and Christmas/Inaugeration...may have to settle for a Mini-30.
(which is way LIGHT for Alaska stuff!)


----------



## HOLLiS (Oct 23, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> Interesting, thanks for that.



This is a different style of muzzle break.

http://www.e-gunparts.com/DisplayAd.asp?chrProductSKU=983220&chrSuperSKU=&MC=


The one that I got from them, fits over the flash suppressor and he locked in placed on the bayonet stud.  It doesn't look like Numrich has it any more or I cann't find it.


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 24, 2008)

*hmmm, another option...*

Hmmmmm, this is another interesting option in 6.8! 





http://ruger.com/Firearms/FAProdView?model=5814&return=Y


----------



## 08steeda (Oct 24, 2008)

This is just my opinion - but the Ruger is not nearly as accurate or reliable. The tolerance and the proof from countless testing shooting gives a lot of creedence to the fact that it is a little loose.

Although there ia a company in Texas that will Accurize them for you for almost the same amount that you can get the Socom for, but you have to provide the rifle too!

Not even in the same ball-park as a M1A! IMHO


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 25, 2008)

Thanks 08! I had heard that. 

But it may also boil down to how many chips($) I have lined up come Christmas/Innaugeration.   I definately want to get something in the houshold before the rules change (I'm suspecting come January!):eek:

And if I only get $800 or so pulled together, then I may look at the Ruger in 7.62x39 or the 6.8.  I know it kinda sucks...but the way the economy is going I may be lucky to have work at that time...(yet, that's one MORE reason to have a good carbine)...especially here in Arizona.  They say when the economy declines, crime increases...and it makes sense.  The construction industry has slowed so much here, that I'm working Hospital Security..(but, it turns out I love it!..protecting the Nurses on 3rd shift...seems a worthwile thing to do)!

But, I guess the next thing is to start searching the used M1A's.  Just got back from Cabella's where I looked, but they had ONE, to the tune of $4K! (yes, $4000!!!)...and Garands were around $1000.  AR's also around $1000+/- so may reconsider 5.56, or maybe an AK.
:uhh:


----------



## HOLLiS (Oct 25, 2008)

The time to buy is always now,  prices are always going up. 

Also ammo is a consideration if you tend to be always short on money or shoot a heck of a lot of it.   

firearm prices are slowly becoming national.  At one time, local prices could vary quite a bit depending on A/O.  Look at want ads, gun shows, and shops.  Also you can place a "wanted to buy" ad in the paper.  Hang around people who shoot, sometimes good deals pop up, net working helps.  

Depending on you skill level you can assemble firearms.  Depending where you start off on assemble process,  such as AR are pretty easy, like legos.  You buy the pieces and assemble it.   Other require machining and maybe more.  Basically almost unlimited choices here.  Maybe too many choices for someone starting out.


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 25, 2008)

Good thoughts Hollis. Thanks!
:)
I still like the shorter BM59 Hollisshooter you posted above!

Just for my own confirmation, the SKS is a POS, correct? and I would be much better with a Mini-30 if I went the 7.62x39? (I'm sorta leaning away from the AR's and AK's due to possible Photo Expedition/Forest Ranger "political correctness"...Anything with a "magazine" will be bad enough, but I don't want to look like a National Forest "pot-grower" with an AR or AK over my shoulder!!! Hopefully the camera in my hands will help with that!!!)
:doh:
https://shadowspear.com/vb/album.php?albumid=244


----------



## HOLLiS (Oct 25, 2008)

SKS tend to be a very good buy for the money.   Once under $100 with a bunch of ammo.  Last one I saw on sale at big 5 was almost $400.   I have two, pre pre ban,  Chinese with folding blade bayonet.  

A big question is what are you going to use it for?  Some firearms are purchased along with a box of ammo.  20 years later the firearm is sold, and there is still 1/2 box of ammo left.  A very few are actually worn out after tens of thousands of rounds have been fired through it.


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 25, 2008)

*my usage thoughts*

Exactly!
My hopes are to find a rifle that will fit the bill for:

1. possible search-and-rescue work along Arizona border (possible flat shooting defense use probably at less<500+/-yds) and easy carry.

2. bear/mt lion/pot grower defense in forest during Photo expeditions Arizona/Alaska(7.62x39 kinda LIGHT for bears...okay for Mt Lion and Pot Grower defense)...perhaps 12ga better choice for this use, anyway.
https://shadowspear.com/vb/album.php?u=1446

3. suburban/urban use in a "Katrina type" (home/border invasion/breakdown) situation
https://shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15409
and general "longgun/carbine" requirements...

4. teach wife to shoot a rifle...she lived through Pol Pot's Cambodia, and has seen a literal breakdown in a government/society, and the related death of her parents/brother (killing fields).  
She is 5 times stronger (character) than I, and is my  life and my inspiration!!! (but I digress, AGAIN!):)
(anyway, refer to item #3 above)


A small .308 would be best, but unsure if chips($) aquired by January deadline! Maybe ($800)Ruger Mini-6.8 best compromise, and just take 12ga on Photo trips. I guess I could go with a ($600)lever-action 45-70! (wonder how the wife would like that!)


----------



## 7point62 (Oct 27, 2008)

The M-14 is an old favorite of mine, but the FN and G-3 are fine weapons. There are some AR-15 derivatives out there in 6.8...but if you really want 7.62 Nato I'd go with the 14 or the FN.

For any large animal and for sheer stopping and dropping--I mean stone cold f*cking dead--within 150 yards--I recommend Remington 870 20 ga shotgun with a fully rifled barrel and deer sights...and 260 grain HP magnum sabot slugs. Good penetration and break-up. It will kill a bull, a bear, a moose, your neighbor, whatever.


----------



## Cabbage Head (Oct 27, 2008)

There have been a whole bunch of good suggestions on the right rifle for you (and your wife).

Anything in an AR platform will give you a rifle that many are familiar with.  

With an M1A in any varient, you also get a rifle that is dependable and proven to be a great rifle.

With the FAL/G3 (or clone) you also get a rifle that is proven worthy to defend your homestead and yourself abroad.

If you can find a place or person who will let you try before you buy, then you can find the one that is right for you both to fire.  If you were in my area, I have a M1A and a G3 (clone) that you could use.  Each are great! 

Then lets take it to the next level, you next have to find the right 7.62 (.308) round to work for you.  There are some great rounds that are made to be used inside the house (limited penetration) and outdoors.  The traditional FMJBT (full metal jacket boat tale) round is good for accuracy buy not too good in the area of penetration (tends to go too far {overpenetration}). 

Hornady has some great rounds out there.  There is a 110gr that has a penetration of around 9in., a 155gr that is around 14in and 2 in 168gr each around 17 -18in in gelatin. They also have some barrier penetration rounds in 165gr. 

There are many others out there.  I am more familiar with Hornady.  

With that and everything else, it all boils down to what you (and yours) feels comfortable with.  In your wallet, ease of operation and marksmanship (markswomanship too).:2c:


----------



## 08steeda (Oct 27, 2008)

Once you get your money in hand then maybe hit the gun shows. With the economy the way it is you could probably find some real bargains out there in the used category! For 800.00 you should be able to get a really decent weapon that way!


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 28, 2008)

Thanks, folks..some really good ideas/suggestions.

Good thoughts on saving $$, 08!

Cabbage, I had heard good things about the hornady, and I guess there's even a Hornady TAP "home defense" round that is effective close, yet good preventing overpenetration..I will look more into that.

7point, you brought up a question I've had for a long time.  Growing up in Alaska I never had to deer hunt with shotgun...so I've always been curious about the rifled slug barrels.  Can you still shoot 00 buckshot/birdshot okay out of a rifled slug barrel?  I have always wondered about that.

Thanks again everybody!  Lot's of good help here.  
:cool:


----------



## 7point62 (Oct 28, 2008)

arizonaguide said:


> ...7point, you brought up a question I've had for a long time.  Growing up in Alaska I never had to deer hunt with shotgun...so I've always been curious about the rifled slug barrels.  Can you still shoot 00 buckshot/birdshot okay out of a rifled slug barrel?  I have always wondered about that...




Negative, because that buck/birdshot would tear up the rifling. But you can change back to your smoothbore on an 870 in about 30 sec. Not that I hunt deer with a shotgun. But these copper jacketed HP core-locked rifled sabot slugs are a world apart from old style deer slugs. You've essentially got an elephant gun at your disposal--providing the elephant is within 150 yards. I use them for boar. Most of my shots at boar are within 30 to 100 yards. Just as a kick recently, I tried 20 rounds at a manhole cover at 300 yards and got 2 hits without compensating for drop...but best penetration/velocity would be less than 150.


----------



## HOLLiS (Oct 28, 2008)

7point62 said:


> Negative, because that buck/birdshot would tear up the rifling. But you can change back to your smoothbore on an 870 in about 30 sec. Not that I hunt deer with a shotgun. But these copper jacketed HP core-locked rifled sabot slugs are a world apart from old style deer slugs. You've essentially got an elephant gun at your disposal--providing the elephant is within 150 yards. I use them for boar. Most of my shots at boar are within 30 to 100 yards. Just as a kick recently, I tried 20 rounds at a manhole cover at 300 yards and got 2 hits without compensating for drop...but best penetration/velocity would be less than 150.



I don't think so (not 100% on this, never heard this before),  Shot is encased in  a plastic case (Wad), the separates on leaving the barrel.   

Check out Thompson Contender 410/45 colt barrel.  


Exclusion is the old fibber wads,  yes they are still used, Mostly in Black powder loads.  I use both,


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 28, 2008)

*Thanks, guys!*

Thanks, guys!
Hollis, good point about the plastic...I wonder if it "spins" the shot...not that that's necessarily a bad thing (like you say: Thompson Contender). Hmmm, interesting.

7point, cool about the 300yd manhole cover. I've seen and used 12ga slugs on bear in Alaska(close range), but not out of a rifled barrel.  They are "devastating"!!!  So, do you use the "rifled" slugs in an actual "rifled" slug barrel?  I wonder how different the "twist" is between the barrel rifling and the slug rifling.  I was amazed when I found out that 12ga slugs typically have a *2000fps *muzzle volocity...(and approx 3000ftlb of muzzle energy)!!   
I always thought the slugs were big and slow, but they're big and (fairly)FAST!!!   Yup, 12ga is such an awsome invention!  Good stuff.   

Now, I hunt exclusively with a camera, but still plan to carry SOMETHING on photo trips for protection.
(Although these days protection I'm thinking more from stumbling upon Pot Growers protecting their fields in the forest!)  

With the wildlife photography, I still get the thrill of the hunt (stealth/tracking), and the "trophy" of a good picture, but I don't have to skin and harvest (maybe even 1000+lbs) of large warm blooded animal!! (Bear meet not that good to MY taste..although some would very much disagree!!)


But, we used to have two freezers in the garage in Alaska...one with Moose/Caribou (raindeer, mmmmmm!), and the other with Salmon and Halibut! (and Crab if we had a good catch)
We had one crab pot (on a 16' fiberform, no shit!) and we would drop it in the morning, fish (halibut/salmon) for half a day, then come back and pull the crab pot!!!

Never had to buy much meat over the winters...from all the stuff gotten in the summers/fall.:) Damn, now I'm homesick! Maybe we ought to start a hunting story thread, after all it is fall.
https://shadowspear.com/vb/album.php?albumid=244


----------



## HOLLiS (Oct 28, 2008)

When I lived in AZ,  I would call coyotes.   The thing that is interesting, one never knows who is going to answer the dinner bell.   I started to bring my camera.   Desert Hawks are really beautiful when they zoom down to see what is for dinner.  Also, coyotes have some interesting expressions.


----------



## arizonaguide (Oct 29, 2008)

I've got some pic's that I got when I found a den of Coyote Pups..with the funniest expressions.  I'll post them to my albums tomorrow. 
I'm liking Arizona. Total National Geographic stuff!

Here tis:


----------



## arizonaguide (Nov 2, 2008)

Hey, anyone have any experience/knowlege about the DPMS Panther 7.62NATO?
($989)  http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=5355&cat=1737


----------



## 08steeda (Nov 2, 2008)

My brother has a Panther from DPMS in 7.62 and it is awesome! Although I beat him all the time with my Bushmaster! But the difference is the shooters not the rifles.

Although he did talk smack a while back and we went to a 200 YD range and lets just say he bought dinner for me at a really expensive place!!

My brother is self taught and just likes cool toys.

His Panther is the first gen of the 7.62 variety and I have heard they have improved upon the design some since then.

Personally I would go with the .338 Remington for AZ. The ballistics look a little more impressive. Flatter shooting round with more pop out to longer distances. at 300 Yds the drop is -10.5 on average where as a 308 is more like 14+ inch drop.

Obviously different loads will play differently but over the counter numbers make the .338 a monster compared to .308 (7.62 Nato)


----------



## arizonaguide (Nov 3, 2008)

Good thoughts 08, but if I did that I have sentimental reasons that I have to get a .300 Weatherby (Dad's old gun that I "lost"(stupid kid!), and I still never hear the end of it!).   

Dad would probably forgive me today (25yrs later) IF I come wandering in with another pre-1964 Remington 700 re-chambered from .300H&H to .300Whby! AND, I need to do that in the next couple  years...as neither Dad or I are getting any younger!
:)
Now THAT's 'flat shooting"...but (in fact) the .338 or .375 would be my next choices (after the .300 Weatherby)!!
What's this new Lapua round, though? That's pretty comparable also, huh?

And I still have a crazy idea in my head that if I can't pull the $$$ for a good .308, that I might go with that .45-70 Alaskan.   Not a real "flat" shooter...but mostly under 500yds anyway.  And Obama won't be able to "bitch and snitch" that one, right? AND real good for Alaska photo summer stuff.
:)

Personal NOTE: ...see, I still can't even admit to myself that I traded the .300 for a damn M1Garand...and have to say I "lost" it.
well, I did lose it...to my STUPIDITY!!!! What's Worse: now I have neither!!!


----------

