# When thugs attack.



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 27, 2015)

Young white girl and her 5 year old brother attacked for walking through the park. 

I don't know how I would react if this happened to my kids, I would probably hunt that girl down (the aggressor) and execute her in front of her friends.

How can this group or anyone for that matter, watch an attack on a young girl and her toddler brother and not do anything about it?


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## Grunt (Dec 27, 2015)

Apathy and "patheticness." The fact that no one steps up to the plate...crosses the line that the thugs drew  in the sand -- and helps to defend those two reveal much about where we stand as a society.

The fact that they think it's okay to do what they did tells much about their mindsets...especially when one of the cretans knew what they were going to do ahead of time and took the opportunity to film their exploits so they could feel good about themselves as they watched it over and over again.

Until people stand up for themselves against predators...they will prey upon them.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 27, 2015)

Agoge said:


> Apathy and "patheticness." The fact that no one steps up to the plate...crosses the line that the thugs drew  in the sand -- and helps to defend those two reveal much about where we stand as a society.
> 
> The fact that they think it's okay to do what they did tells much about their mindsets...especially when one of the cretans knew what they were going to do ahead of time and took the opportunity to film their exploits so they could feel good about themselves as they watched it over and over again.
> 
> Until people stand up for themselves against predators...they will prey upon them.



How does a little girl and her 5 year old brother stand up to a group of thugs that large?


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## Grunt (Dec 27, 2015)

They may not have been able to...but I feel fairly certain that there was probably someone within that area that saw what was occurring and didn't agree with what was going on...yet didn't do a single thing to help.

When I speak of people standing up for themselves...I am speaking in generalities and not necessarily those two in the video.


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## Polar Bear (Dec 27, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> How does a little girl and her 5 year old brother stand up to a group of thugs that large?


Did you see the Tyson vs Holifield fight? I have told my kids you win at all costs in a street fight. Bite, claw, break. No one teaches this anymore


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## Muppet (Dec 28, 2015)

There is no respect for humanity anymore, was there ever... I echo P.B. There is no such thing as a "fair street fight" and I have been in a few growing up in Philly...Savages.

M.


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## RATET (Dec 28, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Young white girl and her 5 year old brother attacked for walking through the park and being the wrong skin color.
> 
> I don't know how I would react if this happened to my kids, I would probably hunt that girl down (the aggressor) and execute her in front of her friends.
> 
> How can this group or anyone for that matter, watch an attack on a young girl and her toddler brother and not do anything about it?



The same way a highly decorated SF Veteran can be tossed on his ass for beating the S#$% out of a boy raper. It's their "culture" and winning the world of Islamists hearts and minds has "nothing" to do with changing their culture. But what do I know?

                     ~ From the nose bleeds.


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## CDG (Dec 28, 2015)

That video made me so fucking angry.  What a bunch of thug pieces of shit.  Wastes of oxygen.  #BlackLivesMatter, your move.  Where's your response to this?  Where's your call for these savages to be held accountable?  Where are the protests for the brutal attack on an innocent girl and her FIVE YEAR OLD FUCKING BROTHER. That fucking cunt knocked a 5 year old over, smacking his head off the concrete while the fucking bitch with the camera laughed.  I am tingling with rage after watching that.  I know I probably shouldn't get so worked up over a video, but goddammit. That poor girl and her brother.  I hope she comes back, with armed family and friends.  I would laugh and clap for a video of every single one of the thugs present in that video catching a hollowpoint between the eyes.  Save the two cunts for last.

Oh, but of course, it's someone else's fault.


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## RATET (Dec 28, 2015)

I think what angers me the most about this, if we are speaking honestly, is the rage that the disenfranchised African American youth carry isn't their own.
I don't believe the black youth of today deserves to carry that much hatred towards the white youth. Unfortunately, in the next couple maybe several decades to come racism will be more then likely bred out just to be replaced by something else.

Just as I had to outgrow the racist values I was taught, a few times in my life I have blown up and said some mean S#&$ to people that I really didn't feel an attachment to.

With that said, yeah, this is a f&#%$@ up video and obviously nobody gave a shit. Hell, a couple months ago I was killing it on my bicycle on 30 mile ride through some  rough hoods and 2 black teenage kids were walking down the sidewalk toward me and one of them lifted his finger in a gun shape and pulled the trigger on me..... and of course I had to bark out, 'You're FUCKING with the wrong one'. I free wheeled it up the block with a glance over my shoulder and there was nothing but silence.......



RATET said:


> quoted above post here



Whoa, let me back that up..
I mentioned fortunately, not unfortunately.


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## JBS (Dec 28, 2015)

THIS:


RATET said:


> I think what angers me the most about this, if we are speaking honestly, is the rage that the disenfranchised African American youth carry isn't their own.
> I don't believe the black youth of today deserves to carry that much hatred towards the white youth. Unfortunately, in the next couple maybe several decades to come racism will be more then likely bred out just to be replaced by something else...


 
This is as powerful as it is among minority youth in part because our media fans the flame.   It's a news story when police shoot and kill a minority, but little to no emphasis is given to the details- namely that there is usually a weapon.  

Take for instance Laquan McDonald.

This kid is the poster child for how cops are trigger happy, regardless of the fact that he had a knife and was running through what should be safe, peaceful, American streets.

How about we decide we want to live in a society where if you- a 17-year old young man- run down the street with a knife in a threatening fashion, you risk forfeiting your life?  Plain and simple.   I mean, are we arguing that a man with a knife was out in the neighborhood doing good deeds?  Why is this issue, this shooting, even up for debate? 

Ask yourself if it was your 5 year old son/daughter sitting out on the front porch, or maybe your little brother or sister, and you see a grown thug waiving a knife around in a confrontational manner ON YOUR STREET- IN FRONT OF YOUR OWN HOME, does your perception change?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 28, 2015)

Polar Bear said:


> Did you see the Tyson vs Holifield fight? I have told my kids you win at all costs in a street fight. Bite, claw, break. No one teaches this anymore



I agree with you, my kids are all being trained as well. However, its pretty unrealistic to expect a professional fighter to prevail over a crowd of that size, much less a child and especially a five year old child.

My point being, it's unreasonable to expect a child to provide the self protection needed to navigate such an environment, where an attack of that style/method can take place for simply walking to the park. This leave's the unfortunate consequence of over protection and or shielding a child from such harsh realities. While I'm sure these thugs (I won't call them kids) are thriving in this environment.

Although I'm fully aware of the crazies in our society, and the importance of educating and preparing my kids to deal with crazy people. I'm taken back by the complete violence and lack of challenge to such violence on a small child.

Bottom line, those thugs fall into the "red bullet" category.


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## Grunt (Dec 28, 2015)

Unfortunately, in these days and times, I tell my loved ones that when they are outside their homes...they are virtually on their own. They can't rely on anyone offering them any amount of help should things go bad for them. They have to be prepared to do what is necessary to keep themselves and their loved ones alive.

The day of people helping each other against crime is long gone.


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## Salt USMC (Dec 28, 2015)

JBS said:


> THIS:
> 
> Take for instance Laquan McDonald.
> 
> ...



Are you seriously defending the McDonald shooting?  Really?


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## JBS (Dec 28, 2015)

Absolutely.

Thug in the middle of an American street with a knife in his hands.

Nothing to talk about. End of story.

As far as I'm concerned, give those cops a medal.  This is America, and I don't believe peaceful citizens should ever have to tolerate savages running through our peaceful streets with knives defying our law enforcement officers.  This isn't Somalia.

Do you know any sane normal person who runs through the streets with a knife and is "just kidding around"?   There's no part of that behavior that can be justified, nor should it be tolerated.

If I had anything to complain about it would be excessive use of ammo, as it's a bit wasteful and the thug wasn't worth the cost of the extra rounds.  

Overall, I like the message it sends.




Deathy McDeath said:


> Are you seriously defending the McDonald shooting?  Really?


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## Brill (Dec 28, 2015)

JBS said:


> Thug in the middle of an American street with a knife in his hands.
> 
> Overall, I like the message it sends.



I think a bean bag to the ball sack or 220V to the body would have sent a message but 16 rounds to the body...some while on the ground... is a bit of a stretch.


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## policemedic (Dec 28, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Are you seriously defending the McDonald shooting?  Really?



How would you have dealt with that situation?


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## JBS (Dec 28, 2015)

Bean bags and tazers don't send the same message that the business end of a Glock sends.  The former is giving thugs a wink, the latter says we are done fucking around with you.  The standard needs to be that if you want to act like a Somali warlord in America, running around in the streets with knives and guns, you're going to end up on YouTube with your face on the pavement and yellow tape around your body.

I don't even care if thugs fail to grasp the concept.   Peaceful productive citizens still win,  as cops attrit their numbers.


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## Salt USMC (Dec 28, 2015)

policemedic said:


> How would you have dealt with that situation?


Probably the same thing the other officers on scene did: not magdump into the dude.  

Look, it isn't so much that the cops shot McDonald.  It's that this one cop shot McDonald, stopped, then proceeded to *empty his fucking mag into the dude's body while he was on the ground. * Do you not see how incredibly fucked up that is? Meanwhile, the other cops on scene didn't feel it necessary to use lethal force.


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## racing_kitty (Dec 28, 2015)

lindy said:


> I think a bean bag to the ball sack or 220V to the body would have sent a message but 16 rounds to the body...some while on the ground... is a bit of a stretch.



If he wasn't issued nonlethal munitions or a Tazer, then his gun is his only option against a guy with a knife and a not insignificant amount of PCP in his system at that moment.  Even if the LEO WAS issued a Tazer, there's no guarantee that the PCP in his system would have rendered that little electric shock noneffective.  Same with beanbag rounds; no guarantee that the suspect will become a non-threat due to the nature of the drugs in his system.

As far as why did the LEO fire 16 times, it's going to be hard to prove whether all 16 were controlled shots, as opposed to an adrenaline fueled reaction to an immediate threat.  If he hit the guy 16 times while knowing that the threat was neutralized after the 2nd or 3rd shot, then he will have a bit of trouble to deal with.  If it was adrenaline-fueled reversion to training, and it didn't dawn on him that the target was down, then he's not as culpable, meaning a lesser charge.  

If it was me, and I saw some stoned teenager with a big ass knife waving it around me, as a civilian, I'd shoot him fucking dead where he stood, regardless of color, unless you want to say that my propensity of shooting stoners is racist.  Then I'll just shoot white boys on meth.  Will that make you feel better?  /sarc


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## Salt USMC (Dec 28, 2015)

JBS said:


> Bean bags and tazers don't send the same message that the business end of a Glock sends.  The former is giving thugs a wink, the latter says we are done fucking around with you.  The standard needs to be that if you want to act like a Somali warlord in America, running around in the streets with knives and guns, you're going to end up on YouTube with your face on the pavement and yellow tape around your body.
> 
> I don't even care if thugs fail to grasp the concept.   Peaceful productive citizens still win,  as cops attrit their numbers.


Man, maybe you live in some weird Judge Dredd version of America, but the last time I checked due process was still a thing and cops were not in the business of doing multiple failure drills into some dude's corpse. 

Bro, this shoot isn't defensible in the least.  It doesn't matter if the guy was hopped up on shit.  This cop Mozambiqued his body on tape, and the city of Chicago sat on it for an entire year because they knew exactly how fucked up it was.


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## JBS (Dec 28, 2015)

I guess the part of this that I simply cannot process is how anyone can defend a grown man(or in this case a 17 year old young man ) walking through a public street brandishing a knife.  Please explain to me exactly what part of that scenario causes you to focus on the behavior of the cop?

Do you have young family members? Are you cool with them sitting on the front porch as a crazy man skips around down your street with a knife in his hand?


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## Grunt (Dec 28, 2015)

The case is based on whether lethal force was justified or not. If it was, one shot or 16 shots don't matter -- in the criminal world.

Now, in the civil world...well, they can use anything in the civil world, but remember, in the criminal...lethal force is lethal force...regardless of how messed up we think it is.


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## JBS (Dec 28, 2015)

As to round count, I don't think there's any difference between 5 carefully placed rounds and 16 rounds.  At that point, all you are talking about is perception. That is, the perception of the untrained public. In my opinion what we are really saying here is "guys don't put 16 rounds in him, cameras are rolling, and it looks bad."

Personally I'm perfectly fine with cops shooting bad guys who are running around and brandishing knives.


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## Salt USMC (Dec 28, 2015)

JBS said:


> I guess the part of this that I simply cannot process is how anyone can defend a grown man(or in this case a 17 year old young man ) walking through a public street brandishing a knife.  Please explain to me exactly what part of that scenario causes you to focus on the behavior of the cop?
> 
> Do you have young family members? Are you cool with them sitting on the front porch as a crazy man skips around down your street with a knife in his hand?


I give deference to cops when it's appropriate, but this guy fucked up when he decided to go from zero to 16 in 14 seconds.  He shot the guy, stopped, and then continued to shoot.  This is in a situation when the other officers on scene did not see the need for lethal force.

Let me quote the summary:



> When officers confronted McDonald, he used a knife with a 3 inch blade to slice the tire on a patrol vehicle and damage its windshield. McDonald walked away from police after numerous verbal instructions from officers to drop the knife. He was shot 16 times in 14–15 seconds, expending the maximum capacity of Van Dyke's 9mm semi-automatic firearm. After McDonald fell to the ground, Van Dyke stopped firing for a moment, then opened fire again when McDonald moved, knife still in hand.  Van Dyke was on the scene for less than 30 seconds before opening fire and began shooting approximately six seconds after exiting his car.  *The first responding officer stated that he did not see the need to use force and none of the at least eight other officers on the scene fired their weapons.*


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## DA SWO (Dec 28, 2015)

16 rounds is what? one mag?
I think crappy training results in cops putting more rounds out than necessary, but I don't care if it is a justifiable shoot.
1 to the head, 16 to the head; results are the same.
Now if he fired 16 shots and only 1 hit; then I'd be pissed.


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## policemedic (Dec 28, 2015)

Agoge said:


> The case is based on whether lethal force was justified or not. If it was, one shot or 16 shots don't matter -- in the criminal world.
> 
> Now, in the civil world...well, they can use anything in the civil world, but remember, in the criminal...lethal force is lethal force...regardless of how messed up we think it is.



We have a saying here. "It doesn't matter how many shots are fired; it's still just one DC (district control) number."


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## Grunt (Dec 28, 2015)

policemedic said:


> We have a saying here. "It doesn't matter how many shots are fired; it's still just one DC (district control) number."



That sir, is a fact!


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## JBS (Dec 28, 2015)

@Deathy McDeath: I've watched the video a dozen times. This punk was walking around on a public street with a knife in his hand. I didn't see if you address this in any of your posts. Apologies if you have already commented on this; It's just that I've talked about this issue with others, and those that attack the cop never seem to address the fact that a grown man was on a public street with a knife, and how in this country we should be able to have safe streets. Would you have been okay with the shooting had he been brandishing a gun?  Or is it strictly the round count? Maybe if he stopped at 5 round you would be ok? Because if so, then you are judging this situation in a  purely arbitrary, highly subjective point of view.  And of course it's been covered as nauseum on this board, a knife can be far more deadly than a handgun at close range.


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## Salt USMC (Dec 28, 2015)

Oh sure, let's focus on just the number of shots.  Let's also ignore the fact that none of the other cops fired, nor thought it was necessary to fire.  Let's ignore the fact that you can clearly see that McDonald is moving away from cops on the video.    None of that matters, it's just another dead thug. 

Show me the part of the penal code where the proper response for "brandishing a knife" is death.


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## policemedic (Dec 28, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Probably the same thing the other officers on scene did: not magdump into the dude.
> 
> Look, it isn't so much that the cops shot McDonald.  It's that this one cop shot McDonald, stopped, then proceeded to *empty his fucking mag into the dude's body while he was on the ground. * Do you not see how incredibly fucked up that is? Meanwhile, the other cops on scene didn't feel it necessary to use lethal force.



In other words, you have no idea how you would have handled that situation so as to preserve public safety whilst ensuring your own well-being.


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## JBS (Dec 28, 2015)

Okay, this is purely subjective, and based on my own personal life experience, but when I look at that video, McDonald wasn't running away with the knife. He was shuffling,  lowering his carry hand, he was still hostile.   When I read his body language, it's like he's saying somebody please get close to me...

Yes I know that is just my opinion, but I grew up in the street. How a person moves tells me a lot about their intent


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## Salt USMC (Dec 28, 2015)

policemedic said:


> In other words, you have no idea how you would have handled that situation so as to preserve public safety whilst ensuring your own well-being.


Fine: beanbag rounds, tazer, OC, any  non-lethal option.  

If he starts moving towards an officer, then fuck yeah ventilate him. But the video clearly show that that wasn't happening.


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## JBS (Dec 28, 2015)

@Deathy McDeath , what do you think McDonald was going to do with that knife of his if given the opportunity?    This guy wasn't out ringing a bell in front of Salvation Army.


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## racing_kitty (Dec 28, 2015)

Was it a case where the cops did not see a need for lethal force, or were they just scared of the legal ass pain that would come with anything other than holding hands and singing kumbaya with the knife wielder?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 28, 2015)

I wonder if they counted the bullet holes in Bonnie and Clyde?

If one bullet is justified, so is the rest of your magazine.


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## Salt USMC (Dec 28, 2015)

JBS said:


> @Deathy McDeath , what do you think McDonald was going to do with that knife of his if given the opportunity?    This guy wasn't out ringing a bell in front of Salvation Army.


He's probably gonna fuck someone's day up.

Look, I'm not denying that the dude made some shitty decisions, but that doesn't mean he instantly forfeits his life.  Appropriate level of force for the threat.  8 cops on the scene and not a single one (including the first dudes on the scene) thought lethal force was appropriate.  At least, not until that dude showed up.


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## policemedic (Dec 28, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Fine: beanbag rounds, tazer, OC, any  non-lethal option.
> 
> If he starts moving towards an officer, then fuck yeah ventilate him. But the video clearly show that that wasn't happening.



Have you ever deployed those weapon systems against a person who is capable of delivering deadly force in an instant while within his lethal range?  Have you ever deployed them against anyone operationally under any circumstances?

Your professional training has gifted you with an insufficient understanding of the dynamics of interpersonal violence and  left you wholly unprepared for the realities of urban policing.  And that's OK, because you don't wear a badge. 

I'm not going to provide expert witness testimony on this matter in a forum subject to discovery. I will however say there is a high probability the officer will be exonerated if his defense team avails themselves of proper experts.


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## Salt USMC (Dec 28, 2015)

Well, when you consider that repeated calls were made for units with non-lethals (from the dispatch tape “Gunfire By The Police!"  Disturbing Audio Released In Laquan McDonald Fatal Shooting) it would seem to me like SOMEONE on the scene thought that it was the appropriate response.



> _“Someone have a Taser?” the officer says.* “This guy is a walking away but he’s got a knife in hand.”*_


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## policemedic (Dec 29, 2015)

Making the request doesn't mean it's the right tactic in the moment, or at all. 

As someone more than a bit familiar with a Taser I would argue against its use in this scenario. 

I'll also point out that someone making the request has no impact at all on the subjective decision made by the officer who fired.   That decision stands on its own based on what the officer reasonably believed at the time he fired. 

You're making arguments based on what other people have said without a firm grasp of the subject. Hardly a tenable position, sir.


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## Muppet (Dec 29, 2015)

21 foot rule. Ever hear of it? I have seen the aftermath on personal and professional levels. Act like a savage, get dealt with. I am tired of savages acting the fool and when it gets handled, cops are made to be the bad guy while the savage is made to be an innocent victim. I am also tired of race baiting bullshit. Act the fucking fool (name the race), get fucking felt with. People are fucking jerk offs, all races.....

M.


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## Salt USMC (Dec 29, 2015)

Muppet said:


> 21 foot rule. Ever hear of it?



The 21 foot rule refers to a holstered handgun.  Watch the video: the cops had already drawn on him and were in easy position to react.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 29, 2015)

The big issue is that those officers have a duty to act, to stop a knife wielding crazy person from walking off. Regardless if you agree with tactics, or outcome, they have a sworn duty to stop that person. If an officer feels the life of himself or others are in jeopardy, the use of deadly force is always justified.

I'm not going to say the officer was wrong or right, I wasn't there, can't see what he saw, understand what he felt, or why he concluded that deadly force was necessary, and that's why we have jury trials and not public opinion trials.


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## Ranger Psych (Dec 29, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> The 21 foot rule refers to a holstered handgun.  Watch the video: the cops had already drawn on him and were in easy position to react.



It's not even a rule, it's a guideline for one, it just gets referred to as a rule. 21 feet you can still be harmed by an individual even if you're drawn down, as bullets of the calibers of handguns and most rifles aren't DRT magic unless you get a CNS shot in.


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## DA SWO (Dec 29, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> He's probably gonna fuck someone's day up.
> 
> Look, I'm not denying that the dude made some shitty decisions, but that doesn't mean he instantly forfeits his life.  Appropriate level of force for the threat.  8 cops on the scene and not a single one (including the first dudes on the scene) thought lethal force was appropriate.  At least, not until that dude showed up.


You seem to think their lack of trigger pulls was the correct decision?
Why?
CPD is known for crappy weapons standards, and the push to get cops on the street can mean the person behind the gun isn't qualified with a weapon.
Did they not shoot because they didn't think it was appropriate? were afraid of the gun? didn't want the paperwork hassle? or maybe because a white guy shooting a black guy puts you in DOJ's crosshairs?

What happens if they don't pursue, and he kills an innocent bystander a block away?  

Play stupid games, win first prize.


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## Muppet (Dec 31, 2015)

Ranger Psych said:


> It's not even a rule, it's a guideline for one, it just gets referred to as a rule. 21 feet you can still be harmed by an individual even if you're drawn down, as bullets of the calibers of handguns and most rifles aren't DRT magic unless you get a CNS shot in.








This is a video of an unholstered P.D. weapon and an asshole charging P.D.

M.


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## DA SWO (Dec 31, 2015)

Muppet said:


> This is a video of an unholstered P.D. weapon and an asshole charging P.D.
> 
> M.


Hate because body cam footage of the shooting would have been better than dashcam.


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