# Solitary Confinement as punishment



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 4, 2016)

So I'm a big "eye-for-an-eye" guy, but after reading this very well written (in my opinion) article, I am certainly willing to take a new look at how Solitary is used as a punishment.

_Prisoners are punished with long periods of isolation, often for minor offenses, that can cause lasting mental health problems. Other states are moving to limit the practice._

Excessive solitary confinement scars Minnesota prison inmates


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## TLDR20 (Dec 4, 2016)

My question with things like this is as follows: are we punishing or rehabilitating?These are different things, punishment and correction. Any child can tell you the difference. For some reason I don't think that the DOC has realized the difference.


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## AWP (Dec 4, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> My question with things like this is as follows: are we punishing or rehabilitating?These are different things, punishment and correction. Any child can tell you the difference. For some reason I don't think that the DOC has realized the difference.



I have serious doubts about how much correction/ rehabilitation can be done or is done in prison, but long-term solitary for the sake of punishment is stupid.


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## SpitfireV (Dec 4, 2016)

If someone is "deserving" of such a long punishment then you'd think they'd committed a serious offence which should be tried in court.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 4, 2016)

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## Etype (Dec 4, 2016)

Lessons learned from parenting- 

Timeout (solitary confinement) builds resentment and anger. The kids don't sit there, "thinking about what they have done."

A quick spanking, then talking to about what happened and what is expected in the future usually yields positive results- timely punishment then rehabilitation.

Not exactly the same, but I think parallels can be drawn.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 4, 2016)

Etype said:


> Lessons learned from parenting-
> 
> Timeout (solitary confinement) builds resentment and anger. The kids don't sit there, "thinking about what they have done."
> 
> ...



The parenting style you describe is the opposite of what my wife and I chose to do as parents.  We decided to be a non-spanking family and follow the "naughty spot" rule of one minute for each year of age; then we would talk about what happened and expectations in the future.  We had (have) twins, so with two it also gave us a chance to gain control of the house for a few minutes.

The boys are nearly 14 now and are often described by family and friends as two of the most well behaved teenagers they have ever encountered.  Obviously being teens they are far from perfect, but it shows that both @Etype 's style (which is how my wife and I were raised) and our style of non-spanking can both work and be effective if used in a measured way.  I think that it is the point the article is trying to make, "solitary" can be a deterrent if used effectively, but giving a guard the power to add time because he was called "a son-of-a-bitch", is not my definition of effective control.


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## Marine0311 (Dec 4, 2016)

Yes I am for it. Lock them up away so they do no harm to COs or society.


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## TLDR20 (Dec 4, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> Yes I am for it. Lock them up away so they do no harm to COs or society.



Man, you have no idea what these people may be locked up for in the first place. A generalized statement like the above is why shit never changes. You should not lock people away forever for most offenses. When they get out, which they will, they shouldn't be psychologically fucked from their imprisonment.


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## Marine0311 (Dec 4, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Man, you have no idea what these people may be locked up for in the first place. A generalized statement like the above is why shit never changes. You should not lock people away forever for most offenses. When they get out, which they will, they shouldn't be psychologically fucked from their imprisonment.



Hate all you want. 

I have an idea based upon friends who are Corrections Officers and deal with them for 8 to 12 hours a day 5 to 7 days a week.  The level of violence they display towards staff, other imamates and CO's is something I have considered.  Perhaps the prisoners should not break the rules/polices of the prison in the first place?


I don't want my best bro/friend *Rich* to be stabbed or assaulted because of the violent behavior they display.


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## TLDR20 (Dec 4, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> Hate all you want.
> 
> I have an idea based upon friends who are Corrections Officers and deal with them for 8 to 12 hours a day 5 to 7 days a week.  The level of violence they display towards staff, other imamates and CO's is something I consider.  Perhaps the prisoners should not break the rules/polices of the prison in the first place.
> 
> ...




They...? What percentage? If they were only there for violent offenses I may be more ok with it, but they are not, that is why it is an issue.

Calling a guard an asshole is not reason to be put in isolation. Putting someone in isolation for years? Give me a break. Do they expect the inmates to come out better, and safer? Punishments like these cause psychosis, and lead to more violence, it doesn't take a Ph.D in psych to understand that. Humans are social creatures, even if that social system is negative, at least they have interaction with other human beings. 

Thinking about how easy it is to be arrested for something minor, then mouthing off, which we all do occasionally, and turning a non violent inmate into a violent one. It is pretty easy to see the flaws of such a system.


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## Marine0311 (Dec 4, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> They...? What percentage? If they were only there for violent offenses I may be more ok with it, but they are not, that is why it is an issue.
> 
> Calling a guard an asshole is not reason to be put in isolation. Putting someone in isolation for years? Give me a break. Do they expect the inmates to come out better, and safer? Punishments like these cause psychosis, and lead to more violence, it doesn't take a Ph.D in psych to understand that. Humans are social creatures, even if that social system is negative, at least they have interaction with other human beings.
> 
> Thinking about how easy it is to be arrested for something minor, then mouthing off, which we all do occasionally, and turning a non violent inmate into a violent one. It is pretty easy to see the flaws of such a system.



I will have to read the article again a second time as I have read it already. It seems some are and some are not.

How easy it is to be arrested for something minor? I don't understand?



The article also states that when someone is put in seg they continue to act out and further prolong their stay. Perhaps they should have behaved in the first place and once in seg behaved instead of racking up more infractions which will further keep them in seg.

Neither of us are COs in prison. When I go out with my bro(over beers or whatever) and hear the stories of the shit he has to deal with from minor to major infractions I am all for it. I want him to come home in once piece and if seg is the way to go then so be it.  Could that system be tweaked? Sure... but it's a tool that is needed to be used to keep order and discipline. From what I gather the imamates he has to watch are fearful of solitary confinement and will for the most part stay within the rules. Others however will act out not matter what and the COs have no other choice but to lock them away because the alternative is to have that particular prisoner continue to act out further and further until it gets to the level of assaulting someone (staff, etc). Maintaining order is paramount in a prison.

Again as I stated my information, thoughts and opinions are based upon stories my friends who are COs tell me.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 4, 2016)

It's one thing to want to rehab a dude who stole some shit, or got busted with drugs, etc. It's another thing to want to do that for a murderer, rapist, child abuser, etc.

I think we need to kill off a shit load more people than we do via the death penalty.  And I don't give two fucks if the assholes sit in solitary confinement until they are executed.  Some people are simply incapable of ever being trusted in society or general population for that matter. And those peoples mental health, I do not  give a damn for. They otta have those fuckers out on a chain gang, cleaning streets and doing productive shit for the communities they violated, and the shit heads who cannot be trusted with that, should be stuck in a fucking sweat box, and given no more than bread and water.

It's prison, not Disney Land.


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## TLDR20 (Dec 4, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> It's one thing to want to rehab a dude who stole some shit, or got busted with drugs, etc. It's another thing to want to do that for a murderer, rapist, child abuser, etc.
> 
> I think we need to kill off a shit load more people than we do via the death penalty.  And I don't give two fucks if the assholes sit in solitary confinement until they are executed.  Some people are simply incapable of ever being trusted in society or general population for that matter. And those peoples mental health, I do not  give a damn for. They otta have those fuckers out on a chain gang, cleaning streets and doing productive shit for the communities they violated, and the shit heads who cannot be trusted with that, should be stuck in a fucking sweat box, and given no more than bread and water.
> 
> It's prison, not Disney Land.



I think that in countries where rehabilitation is centric to imprisonment, they have less repeat criminal offenders.

It is not hard to see that in our system, people become more criminalized in the system than if they hadn't entered into it. Obviously I am not talking about the super violent offenders, sexually based crimes, stuff like that...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 4, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I think that in countries where rehabilitation is centric to imprisonment, they have less repeat criminal offenders.
> 
> It is not hard to see that in our system, people. Crime more criminalizes in the system than if they hadn't entered into it. Obviously I am not talking about the super violent offenders, sexually based crimes, stuff like that...



Death penalty tends to help with the repeat offender issues.

But yes I hear what you're saying, and I would agree that people who commit minor offenses should get some form of rehab. The other shit heads, not so much.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 4, 2016)

[Q


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## 0699 (Dec 4, 2016)

By all accounts, Red Onion will crush a man's soul.  Horrible that it is needed.

Red Onion State Prison - Wikipedia

Having said that, what are the alternatives to handling violent offenders that already have extremely long or life sentences?  By all accounts, once criminals reach that point they have little to no fear of prison rules or corrections personnel.  From Thomas Silverstein's Wikipedia page...


> "When an inmate kills a guard, he must be punished," a Bureau of Prisons official told author Pete Earley. "We can’t execute Silverstein, so we have no choice but to make his life a living hell. Otherwise other inmates will kill guards too. There has to be some supreme punishment. Every convict knows what Silverstein is going through. We want them to realize that if they cross the same line that he did, they will pay a heavy price."


Thomas Silverstein - Wikipedia


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## TheKicker (Dec 4, 2016)

Just curious, what are ya'lls opinion on using solitary confinement for those inmates who pose a serious threat to those around them? i.e. maybe an inmate who has killed or assaulted other prisoners multiple times, and is a risk to other's (not just the staff) safety? And better yet, if you don't believe that it should be used, what is another option or treatment you would like to see implemented?


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## AWP (Dec 4, 2016)

Our prison/ justice system is fucked. Prisons for profit? Seriously? How many prisoners are sent to prison for minor offenses or, and I'm not a bleeding heart by a long shot, the color of their skin or whatever? Prisons are post-grad facilities for criminals, but how many guys are there who are legitimately innocent or punished far beyond their crimes?

If you attack a guard or a fellow prisoner I don't care what landed you there because at that point any presumption of innocence or excessive sentencing is gone. At that point if your mind is broken, so what? It was already broken for you to initiate violent acts.

Sure, this post reads like a contradiction, but nothing in life is black or white. I love binary problems and solutions, but can anyone legitimately state that our prison/ justice system is a 1 or a 0?

I  think we can rehab "lightweight" offenders, but career or violent offenders are beyond saving. If they are going to plant those seeds they can't complain about the harvest.


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## policemedic (Dec 5, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> My question with things like this is as follows: are we punishing or rehabilitating?These are different things, punishment and correction. Any child can tell you the difference. For some reason I don't think that the DOC has realized the difference.



The question is, can people be corrected/rehabilitated on a large scale?  Perhaps individuals caught very early in the criminal cycle can be--particularly those involved in non-violent crimes--but for most others I'm doubtful.

That said, we have to either accept crazy high recidivism rates and be prepared to warehouse increasingly large numbers of career offenders or approach the problem differently.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 5, 2016)

[Q


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## Etype (Dec 5, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Calling a guard an asshole is not reason to be put in isolation.


If that really does happen, which I'm sure it does occasionally, that's a pretty big ego issue on the guard's fault.

We've all dealt with authority figures (police, teachers, DMV ladies, etc.) who had authority complexes compounded by ego.  When the other person in the equation (the prisoner) also has interpersonal relationship issues, it makes for a bad situation.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Dec 5, 2016)

I think the biggest injustice we are doing to our society is not punishing people hard enough.  A life of crime wouldn't be a life if you were getting no sleep, no food, no time to work out and no education in prison.  If it was absolutely miserable, it would make people thank extra hard before doing whatever crime they are about to commit.  Remember that one time you heard your Squad Leader say "lets rob the PX, Ft Leavenworth is nice this time of year........?"  NO!  I've never been, but all I ever heard about Leavenworth was breaking big rocks into small rocks.  That doesn't sound sexxxy!  


Want to make $60,000 a year...go to prison....:wall:


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## RustyShackleford (Dec 5, 2016)

Take a few criminal justice classes and you will see that the CJ system in the US does not follow what is taught in CJ classes.  This should be painfully clear to those employed in any type of LE capacity.  Punishment should be swift and appropriate, followed by some sort of rehabilitation, in order to reintegrate the individual back into society.  Remove politics and the business aspect (not just for profit prisons, it goes way beyond that) from corrections and you will have a good start.


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## Lefty375 (Dec 5, 2016)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> I think the biggest injustice we are doing to our society is not punishing people hard enough.  A life of crime wouldn't be a life if you were getting no sleep, no food, no time to work out and no education in prison.  If it was absolutely miserable, it would make people thank extra hard before doing whatever crime they are about to commit.  Remember that one time you heard your Squad Leader say "lets rob the PX, Ft Leavenworth is nice this time of year........?"  NO!  I've never been, but all I ever heard about Leavenworth was breaking big rocks into small rocks.  That doesn't sound sexxxy!
> 
> 
> Want to make $60,000 a year...go to prison....:wall:



A life of crime might bring home more money than a minimum wage job. Which means more food.  This _doesn't_ apply to all criminals, and obviously, we can think of millions of different scenarios to turn X agent away from crime. My point in this is. However, I _do_ think crime is worth under certain circumstances. 

This is different than a SSG saying "let's rob the PX" using some basic math. How much money does a robbery, on average, yield? How likely is it we will get caught? How much do we need the extra 10k we will receive from a low-risk robbery like a convenience store? You make more as a military member with benefits and guaranteed pay as long as you perform at the level of mediocre human being. 

The low-income family in the mountains who are on their last nickel? I wager they stand a lot more to gain from crime, thus, telling them "don't steal" isn't effective. 

I don't think people are dumb. Corporate criminals are educated individuals who _know_ crime is wrong. To think there is some great injustice by not throwing, even more people into jail as a message just seems to miss the mark for me. We have a lot of people locked away last time I checked. Doesn't appear to work that great.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Dec 5, 2016)

@Lefty375  I don't want more people in Prison, I want less.  To do so Prison has to suck WAY more.  

Make it SO BADD that someone will turn to a job making minimal wage (oh snap unemployment numbers go down) as opposed to to committing a crime (oh snap x 2 prison populations go down), which then might mean better rehab and services for those that are in but are scheduled to get out (oh snap x 10 greater ratio of counselors to prisoners) which then could lead to taking a chunk out of that $63.4 Billion a year figure (oh snap x 100 we just fixed the US in 1 beer).  

I always referred to it as the Hard Right over the Easy Wrong...


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## policemedic (Dec 5, 2016)

Lefty375 said:


> How much do we need the extra 10k we will receive from a low-risk robbery like a convenience store?
> 
> I don't think people are dumb. Corporate criminals are educated individuals who _know_ crime is wrong.



I know you probably pulled the number out of thin air, but 10K from a convenience store robbery? That's not going to happen on the regular. The average number is significantly less.

In fact, I'm trying to remember the last bank robbery I worked and I'm not sure it was 10k.

As for corporate criminals? Completely agree.  But I'd say that the high school dropout snatching cellphones also knows it's wrong to rob people. It's just that neither the privileged office dude nor the hard scrabble robber gives a damn.


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## 0699 (Dec 6, 2016)

Lefty375 said:


> How much do we need the extra 10k we will receive from a low-risk robbery like a convenience store? You make more as a military member with benefits and guaranteed pay as long as you perform at the level of mediocre human being.


I think $10,000 is an *EXTREMELY* high estimate for proceeds from robbing a convenience store (shop-n-rob) or gas station.  I would guess the average profit from these is less than $100.  Most of them put all but 1-2 $20 bills in a time lock safe just for this reason.


> The low-income family in the mountains who are on their last nickel? I wager they stand a lot more to gain from crime, thus, telling them "don't steal" isn't effective.


I think we are misunderstanding the impact drugs have on minor crimes.  A lot of muggers, small-time stickup men, etc., are looking for enough money to score their next few hits of meth, heroin, or the like.  If they were talented crooks, they wouldn't be robbing gas stations.

Also, the stories being told here revolve around those few prisoners that committed minor crimes, went to prison for a short term, and while in prison *KEPT FUCKING UP*, then got put in solitary for a reason.  They aren't telling you about all the seriously bad dudes in solitary because they killed guards or other convicts, or the majority of prisoners that are in general population keeping their noses clean.  It's bad enough to go to prison in the first place, but if you can't keep your nose clean while there, the system has to take corrective action.

Let us not allow the stories being told by MSM (so they can sell more advertising and/or push their liberal agenda) make us think that all these poor guys in prison just because all judges are racists and they got sent to prison only because they're black or immigrants are also in solitary because a guard got mad at them.  I know and understand that there are some major problems with our prison system, but let's not go crazy or throw the baby out with the bathwater.


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## policemedic (Dec 6, 2016)

Not for nothing, but prison guards don't have the authority to send people to 'the hole' on their own.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 6, 2016)

[Q


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## 0699 (Dec 6, 2016)

policemedic said:


> Not for nothing, but prison guards don't have the authority to send people to 'the hole' on their own.


Bro, I'm not saying they do.  I'm saying the MSM wants you to believe they can, because that supports the story being told.  I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that.


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## Il Duce (Dec 6, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Hard agree. I get daily crime reports from our county in Virginia, and the two modestly sized cities. Things that are being stolen are items that can be easily resold within a few hours of the crimes. It is pretty clear that well over 50% of the crimes I see reported are crimes that are drug relataed. I'm willing to bet that some of the stolen items are fenced even before the crime report has been processed by the responding LEO agency.  Proceeds taken from most business establishments are universally below four figures. Just off the top of my head, I don't recall seeing too many above $200.00. The stolen funds are often transacted for drugs within an hour of the crime.



In that case (and I don't disagree on crime - especially in urban areas) it seems like the case for the reform of drug laws and drug prohibition is even more powerful than prison reform.


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## policemedic (Dec 6, 2016)

0699 said:


> Bro, I'm not saying they do.  I'm saying the MSM wants you to believe they can, because that supports the story being told.  I'm sorry if I wasn't clear on that.



Oh I know you weren't. I was just speaking generally.

And you're right about the media.


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## 0699 (Dec 6, 2016)

policemedic said:


> Oh I know you weren't. I was just speaking generally.
> 
> And you're right about the media.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 6, 2016)

[Q


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## Il Duce (Dec 6, 2016)

I've heard some commentators on the subject (in every case they are extremely partisan on the side of legalizing drugs across the board) make a very convincing case - to me anyway - that essentially goes like this:

If drugs are legalized and consumption is subsidized through healthcare it provides an avenue to:
1. Neuter the massive illicit drug economy that fuels organized crime, third-world instability, corruption - and massively exacerbates other problems like human smuggling
2. Eliminate the majority of the property crime, petty theft, prostitution, and gang-violence/activity that hamstrings urban development and clogs our very expensive penal system
3. De-militarizes police interactions with elements of the community (mostly through 2 above) and allows us to focus our LE community on a more productive engagement, prevention, and investigative model
4. Provide a single-entry system for addiction care and rehabilitation
5. Raise barriers for children or other at-risk groups to have access to drugs as legitimate businesses now have to weigh the consequences of breaking the law in a way criminal organizations do not

I think the tough thing conceptually is that nowhere does that case address drugs being right/wrong, reflect the values of our society, or show a path to making those changes.

I think though it reflects the way I see a lot of public policy.  Doing what's best for investing public resources for the best outcomes - and letting people fuck themselves up as much or as little as they'd like as their right.

To me it's one of the problems with the legalize drugs side of things.  Absent the regulatory and policy structure for the public good I think arguments about being able to use drugs because it's right/wrong are meaningless.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 6, 2016)

T


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## TLDR20 (Dec 6, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> To legalize the current street drug business would revolutionize many things. It could be done with a proper plan to deal with the number of addicts across the nation. It would be a money maker for the drug companies, and put the drug lords, pushers and runners out of business.
> 
> It could be done, and it would be a world changing event, in many ways.


I don't see Phizer or Merck rushing to grow pot. Phillip Morris on the other hand...


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 6, 2016)

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## Il Duce (Dec 6, 2016)

I think the position most of the legalize drugs partisans take on the issue is that addiction levels, especially debilitating addiction levels will not be particularly high.  Essentially people will use drugs and be less productive but still functioning members of society.  There's certainly some evidence on that side of things but I think when you're talking about such a massive shift in public policy - with a difficult time putting the genie back in the bottle - it's a tough sell.

I worry that the gradual lifting of the prohibition on drugs will give us the worst of both worlds.  More drug use, bigger markets, but still a thriving illicit trade and all the power that entails.  It's one of the things I think you need a government for - and why libertarians suck at the drug policy game other than blanket legalizations.  I read there was some really effective planning that went into the Colorado legalization policies but I guess that's another problem with public policy - every plan promises the world but delivery on execution can be problematic (ACA being a prime example in my thinking).


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## RustyShackleford (Dec 7, 2016)

Illegal drugs are big business, and not just for cartels.  Do a little reading on the asset forfeiture program and HIDTA.  In various investigative courses taken over the years they always say "follow the money."  The same goes for  drug task forces, asset forfeiture, etc.  When funds dry up from equitable sharing programs developed through various task forces, police chiefs and sheriffs have been known to pull their personnel since there is no longer a financial benefit.


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## 0699 (Dec 7, 2016)

_Rise of the Warrior Cop_ by Radley Balko.  Very well-written book on the subject of search warrants and asset forfeiture.

Summary/Reviews: Rise of the warrior cop :
Rise of the Warrior Cop: The Militarization of America's Police Forces: Radley Balko: 9781610394574: Amazon.com: Books


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 7, 2016)

RustyShackleford said:


> Illegal drugs are big business, and not just for cartels.  Do a little reading on the asset forfeiture program and HIDTA.  In various investigative courses taken over the years they always say "follow the money."  The same goes for  drug task forces, asset forfeiture, etc.  When funds dry up from equitable sharing programs developed through various task forces, police chiefs and sheriffs have been known to pull their personnel since there is no longer a financial benefit.
> 
> View attachment 17410




Nice^^^^^grab!!


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## benroliver (Dec 7, 2016)

So I will share this because I know some of you can relate more than I can.  My cousin was a great student until he got into high school. He started hanging out with the wrong crowd so when he graduated my uncle suggested he go into the National Guard.  Service is a pretty normal thing in my family so he figured he would be enlisting at some point anyway and thought it wasn't such a bad idea himself.

Right after he finished boot and AIT( however the guard does it), he was sent to Iraq.  A few months in his Humvee was hit by an IED and his friend was killed.  Fortunately for him he didn't have any external injuries but he was knocked unconscious and received a pretty severe concussion.  Following the incident he was having all kinds of back issues and when he got back to the states he started becoming depending on pain medications.  The VA would just give him whatever he wanted and send him on.

Eventually the drug addiction and dependency led him into theft and dealing so he could pay for his habit.  We tried everything we could to intervene but at the same time not be part of the problem.  Eventually he was arrested and sent to jail.  Not long after being in he got into a fight with another inmate and was sent to solitary and from there he just crumbled.  

He was a tough kid growing up, hell we all were.  That is just how we were raised, but the combination of drugs, the loss of his friend, and solitary destroyed him.  He has never recovered. It has been a battle now for the last decade to help him and frankly we are all at a loss.  I feel like his prison sentence could have been a good thing for him, but instead it changed him forever.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 7, 2016)

[Q


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## benroliver (Dec 7, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> What a sad story. I'm sorry to hear things have turned out the way they have.



I am hoping after I spend some time in the Army and away for a while that maybe he will open up to me a bit more when I come to visit.  We were close growing up and I don't act like a parent like everyone else does around him.  He has a hard time talking to anyone at this point, everything is taken as criticism and the conversations end up toxic. I just have to learn from it myself and just continue to be there as best I can.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 7, 2016)

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## policemedic (Dec 7, 2016)

benroliver said:


> So I will share this because I know some of you can relate more than I can.  My cousin was a great student until he got into high school. He started hanging out with the wrong crowd so when he graduated my uncle suggested he go into the National Guard.  Service is a pretty normal thing in my family so he figured he would be enlisting at some point anyway and thought it wasn't such a bad idea himself.
> 
> Right after he finished boot and AIT( however the guard does it), he was sent to Iraq.  A few months in his Humvee was hit by an IED and his friend was killed.  Fortunately for him he didn't have any external injuries but he was knocked unconscious and received a pretty severe concussion.  Following the incident he was having all kinds of back issues and when he got back to the states he started becoming depending on pain medications.  The VA would just give him whatever he wanted and send him on.
> 
> ...



That is a sad tale.  I don't deny that long-term pain management is a tricky business that requires an ethical specialist to get good results that don't end up in opiate addiction.

Unfortunately, there isn't much a prison can do to discipline violent inmates other than to put them in administrative segregation.  My experience is that a single fight doesn't result in more than a week or two in segregation, if that.  It's also true that solitary confinement in the prisons I've been in is nowhere near completely solitary.


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## benroliver (Dec 7, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> There is a lot going on with your brother. His addiction, arrest and prison sentence has changed him, as it might anyone. Add the combat events, PTSD will be a big player as well. He will carry a great deal of self loathing, shame, guilt, and pure anger. I can see how things can become toxic in trying to talk with him.
> 
> There are mental health programs inside the prison systems, but I expect it is staffed pretty thin for the amount of mental illness seen in the correction systems today. About the only thing I might suggest is he go straight to the VA when his time has been served. Your brother will need lots of help to get things anywhere close to a positive view of the world. I am truely sad to learn of all this. I wish him luck.



Thanks for the advice and wishes.  Sorry for the thread hijack. He is out now and we have him working with the VA but it has been difficult. The PTSD/addiction are absolutely the core of the issue, the stint in prison amplified everything 10 fold. I know we have not given up yet. This battle is part of what has driven me to enlist as a Medic and continue my education.


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## benroliver (Dec 7, 2016)

policemedic said:


> That is a sad tale.  I don't deny that long-term pain management is a tricky business that requires an ethical specialist to get good results that don't end up in opiate addiction.
> 
> Unfortunately, there isn't much a prison can do to discipline violent inmates other than to put them in administrative segregation.  My experience is that a single fight doesn't result in more than a week or two in segregation, if that.  It's also true that solitary confinement in the prisons I've been in is nowhere near completely solitary.



This is true.  There were several instances and it just progressed.  I couldn't even visit him after a while.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 7, 2016)

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## benroliver (Dec 7, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> If there is one word I could say to offer your brother a chance at staying sober amd out of corrections it would be, "Halfway House".  His pain issues are best treated by a multispecality pain management team. It combines many approaches all focused on pain management without addiction. Taking pain med for pain only produces dependancy on pain medications. There are many who are on narcotic pain meds, and take them as prescribed. The diagnosis of addiction comes into play when the pain meds are taken in larger doses, to gain a euphoric high. It will be difficult for a prior addict, but I have seen pain management folks make it work. He needs psych counciling and, again, a Halfway House is a safe place for your brother. These houses provide group support plus accountability to the person running the house.



This is something I will definitely need to do some more research on myself. I appreciate the support. I will be sitting down with my family again before I leave for basic so there will be an opportunity to bring this up and see if we can make it an option.


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## pardus (Dec 8, 2016)

I've been going through the hiring process to become a CO for a little while now. I'm very interested to the solitary situation/debate going on. It does seem as an ignorant outsider that it has been used too often and with significant adverse effects. However it also seems quite clear that it is a needed tool in the prison system. I'm curious as to what other systems/countries employ in order to control inmates that are violent inside prison.


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## CDG (Dec 8, 2016)

pardus said:


> I've been going through the hiring process to become a CO for a little while now. I'm very interested to the solitary situation/debate going on. It does seem as an ignorant outsider that it has been used too often and with significant adverse effects. However it also seems quite clear that it is a needed tool in the prison system. *I'm curious as to what other systems/countries employ in order to control inmates that are violent inside prison*.



There's a documentary on Netflix called World's Toughest Prisons where a journalist travels around and experiences small doses of this.  Being extracted from a cell, moved to a punishment area/cell/whatever and left there for a short amount of time.  There are prisons out there that seem to do far worse than what the US version of solitary is.


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## benroliver (Dec 8, 2016)

I think the largest issue is the war on drugs and separating violent and non violent offenders.  You get kids from all walks of life getting busted for marijuana who go to big boy prison and end up real criminals by the time they are out.  We need to treat drug addiction and abuse separately and then we really need to explore methods of rehabilitation.  I mean if teens and young adults could go to jail and learn a trade instead of sitting on their ass finding ways to get in trouble or trying to survive then maybe they would have something to look forward to when they get out.  Instead, you get a felony drug conviction and any sense chance of a professional career and good employment is out the window.  I know there are job programs in place now but they seem underfunded and not priority.


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## policemedic (Dec 8, 2016)

Or maybe we need to teach our kids to obey the law. They can fight to have laws changed if they feel strongly enough. 

Felony drug charges usually apply to distribution, not possession, so if someone catches a felony case they are more involved in the trade than a casual toker.


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## 0699 (Dec 8, 2016)

policemedic said:


> *Or maybe we need to teach our kids to obey the law*. They can fight to have laws changed if they feel strongly enough.
> 
> Felony drug charges usually apply to distribution, not possession, so if someone catches a felony case they are more involved in the trade than a casual toker.


Fucking A.  Too many of the youth think because a law is "unfair", "unequal", or they don't "like" it, they can violate it in the interest of free speech.  That's not how our system works.

I've even seen protestors claiming that cops can't arrest them because the cops would then be "violating my right to civil disobedience."  Hey dipshit, civil disobedience is about going to prison for your beliefs, not getting away with breaking the law.


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## benroliver (Dec 8, 2016)

policemedic said:


> Or maybe we need to teach our kids to obey the law. They can fight to have laws changed if they feel strongly enough.
> 
> Felony drug charges usually apply to distribution, not possession, so if someone catches a felony case they are more involved in the trade than a casual toker.



Well not every child has the luxury of growing up with responsible parents.  Children are products of their environment, that doesn't take away personal responsibility either, but it is a reality. If its not then why bother raising children in our image, why bother teaching them anything if its that simple to learn by themselves?


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## benroliver (Dec 8, 2016)

0699 said:


> Fucking A.  Too many of the youth think because a law is "unfair", "unequal", or they don't "like" it, they can violate it in the interest of free speech.  That's not how our system works.
> 
> I've even seen protesters claiming that cops can't arrest them because the cops would then be "violating my right to civil disobedience."  Hey dipshit, civil disobedience is about going to prison for your beliefs, not getting away with breaking the law.



Just out of curiosity, what makes you think the majority of protesters don't understand what civil disobedience is? There is a difference between getting arrested and getting the shit beat out of you lol.  The protests in the states do not hold a candle to what happens in Europe. It isn't the average annoying college SJW that is the problem in this country regardless of what Fox news and Hannity think.


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## 0699 (Dec 9, 2016)

0699 said:


> Fucking A.  Too many of the youth think because a law is "unfair", "unequal", or they don't "like" it, they can violate it in the interest of free speech.  That's not how our system works.
> 
> I've even seen protestors claiming that cops can't arrest them because the cops would then be "violating my right to civil disobedience."  Hey dipshit, civil disobedience is about going to prison for your beliefs, not getting away with breaking the law.





benroliver said:


> Just out of curiosity, *what makes you think the majority of protesters don't understand what civil disobedience is*? There is a difference between getting arrested and getting the shit beat out of you lol.  The protests in the states do not hold a candle to what happens in Europe. It isn't the average annoying college SJW that is the problem in this country regardless of what Fox news and Hannity think.


We can see you have issues using correct grammar; do you also have reading comprehension issues?    Where in my post did I say "majority"?  Please point it out to me.


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## TLDR20 (Dec 9, 2016)

0699 said:


> We can see you have issues using correct grammar; do you also have reading comprehension issues?    Where in my post did I say "majority"?  Please point it out to me.



We can? His post had fine grammar, particularly by Internet forum standards.


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## 0699 (Dec 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> We can? His post had fine grammar, particularly by Internet forum standards.


You don't end a sentence with the word "is".


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## TLDR20 (Dec 9, 2016)

0699 said:


> You don't end a sentence with the word "is".



Wow. Well I have to say that is the most nit picky bullshit I have seen on here in a while. As an admin I think we will give him a pass.

Also, it is perfectly acceptable in non formal writing to end a sentence in a preposition. This isn't APA, so like I said, he gets a pass.


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## 0699 (Dec 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Wow. Well I have to say that is the most nit picky bullshit I have seen on here in a while. As an admin I think we will give him a pass.
> 
> Also, it is perfectly acceptable in non formal writing to end a sentence in a preposition. This isn't APA, so like I said, he gets a pass.


And he gets another pass for misquoting me and implying I'm a dumbass, right?

Sounds about right.  Good moderation as usual.  Thanks.  Have a good day.


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## TLDR20 (Dec 9, 2016)

0699 said:


> And he gets another pass for misquoting me and implying I'm a dumbass, right?
> 
> Sounds about right.  Good moderation as usual.  Thanks.  Have a good day.



Lol. Listen friend, you get to have your own arguments. I don't need to moderate content analysis. When you are an asshole to other members, it becomes a different story. Trying to degrade an argument on a petty grammar complaint is weak sauce.


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## 0699 (Dec 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Lol. Listen friend, you get to have your own arguments. I don't need to moderate content analysis. When you are an asshole to other members, it becomes a different story. Trying to degrade an argument on a petty grammar complaint is weak sauce.


Roger, thanks.  Have a good one.


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## Devildoc (Dec 9, 2016)

Etype said:


> Lessons learned from parenting-
> 
> Timeout (solitary confinement) builds resentment and anger. The kids don't sit there, "thinking about what they have done."
> 
> ...



I think it depends on the age.  I think it can be a useful tool, and there is a time and a place, just as there is for spanking.  But like with "real" punishment for criminal offenders, a single type of punishment is rarely effective, and one has to be judicious about how it's meted out.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Dec 9, 2016)

Statistics don't lie...


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## benroliver (Dec 9, 2016)

0699 said:


> We can see you have issues using correct grammar; do you also have reading comprehension issues?    Where in my post did I say "majority"?  Please point it out to me.



So I apologize if my grammar, or lack thereof, is offensive.  I certainly did not mean it to be lol. I will be honest, I corrected spelling errors and basic punctuation mistakes when I saw them but I did not go back and proof read entirely.

As for the claim about my reading comprehension, It seemed pretty clear what you were implying about protesters and civil disobedience. I used "majority" to explicitly point out what I thought you were implying.  If my assumption was wrong then I apologize, maybe you can clarify what you meant.

I do find it quite hypocritical to be upset that I attempted to read in between the lines when you then come back and say that I implied to call you a "dumbass".  Again, if my tone came off that way then I apologize, I was trying to discuss the issue with you.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 9, 2016)

Video, just because.


I was at traffic court two days ago. Yep, my criminal self rolling stopped a stop sign and got caught a few weeks back. Anyway, standing there in line awaiting my turn before the local judge,  and listen to the complete bullshit being spewed, was eye opening. Been awhile since I have been in traffic court. People were arguing g some of the dumbest shit I'd ever heard, pleading not guilty while they played video of them clearly being guilty as hell, arguing with the judges rulings and acting like fucking retards. One dude out of probably 50 in front of me plead no contest, because he had a deal with the city attorney. You should of seen the absolute shock on the judge and officers face when I told that judge I was guilty as hell.

The problem I saw, nobody wanted to be held accountable for being caught fucking up. Don't get me wrong, nobody wants to pay a fine or take half a day out of their life dealing with stupid. But that's what happens when you fuck up. People bitchin because it's taking too long, on their phone when a police officer is telling you to get off, sign says motherfucker.  

Bottom line people need to be accountable for what they do. Just like traffic court, just like behaving your silly ass while in prison, or while protesting, or whatever stupid shit. If you're going to fuck up, be prepared to pay the consequences,  and no fuck face, you don't pick and choose the consequence.

$.02


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## benroliver (Dec 9, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> I'm a strong man, I got no business hitting kids. I told my wife that when I first met her. My old man used to hit me. He made a paddle out of a board, painted it bright red enamel, drilled a hole through the handle and put a leather thong in it so he could hang it up on a hook in the closet. He used to whack the hell out of me with that stick. Until I got big. I came back from the war and I saw the fear in his eyes for the first time.
> 
> So I never hit my kids. I yelled like a Senior Drill Instructor, but I never laid a hand on them and they turned out to be great kids. I left the spanking up to my wife and she'd bare their little bottoms once in a while and spank em and they'd just laugh at her.
> 
> ...



Oh god writing assignments are the worst, Ill take the paddle all day ahaha. I thinking the spanking is like most issues. There is a point where it is effective but if taken overboard its abusive and can cause resentment and even worse behavior.


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## benroliver (Dec 9, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Video, just because.
> 
> 
> I was at traffic court two days ago. Yep, my criminal self rolling stopped a stop sign and got caught a few weeks back. Anyway, standing there in line awaiting my turn before the local judge,  and listen to the complete bullshit being spewed, was eye opening. Been awhile since I have been in traffic court. People were arguing g some of the dumbest shit I'd ever heard, pleading not guilty while they played video of them clearly being guilty as hell, arguing with the judges rulings and acting like fucking retards. One dude out of probably 50 in front of me plead no contest, because he had a deal with the city attorney. You should of seen the absolute shock on the judge and officers face when I told that judge I was guilty as hell.
> ...



The only thing that video does is cause liberals to entrench themselves in their position in the same way that political correctness moves conservatives to the other end of the spectrum.  Lets just imagine for a moment that Clinton won.  There were all kinds of armchair warrior militia folks saying they were going to bring their guns and protest.  The idea that people are upset over the most polarized election in our lifetimes isn't a surprise. The rise in white nationalism after the first black president and the reaction to it shouldn't strike anyone as coincidence either.

As far as people not wanting to be held accountable, that is the case for every facet of society.  I think the problem is we focus on the small fish because they are easy targets.  The fact that practically nobody went to prison for bankrupting the US and wold economy is a great example. Then we elect Donald Trump, the epitome of this type of egregious behavior.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 9, 2016)

benroliver said:


> The only thing that video does is cause liberals to entrench themselves in their position in the same way that political correctness moves conservatives to the other end of the spectrum.  Lets just imagine for a moment that Clinton won.  There were all kinds of armchair warrior militia folks saying they were going to bring their guns and protest.  The idea that people are upset over the most polarized election in our lifetimes isn't a surprise. The rise in white nationalism after the first black president and the reaction to it shouldn't strike anyone as coincidence either.
> 
> Or could it be that Americans got tired of the progressive socialist leaning direction this country was heading in? Could it be that, people of all races just got tired of the political correctness, indebtedness,  joblessness,  and attacKS on or moral fabric of our country? Could it be that, the country got tired of the lies and bullshit, can't call terrorism terrorism, maybe they don't want boys in girls restrooms, etc, etc? There may be more to it than just white racist America, which tends make me call more bullshit.
> 
> ...



Replied in your quote in red.

So you believe Clinton's behavior was more electable? Criminal activity, corruption and misuse of official capacity. Vs Trump said some shit people didn't like?


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## benroliver (Dec 9, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Replied in your quote in red.
> 
> So you believe Clinton's behavior was more electable? Criminal activity, corruption and misuse of official capacity. Vs Trump said some shit people didn't like?



No I don't, I supported Sanders but he got screwed.  Criminal activity, corruption, and misuse of official capacity are all descriptions of Trump as well. Some of those issues I agree with like political correctness, joblessness, and indebtedness.   Trump and Clinton don't solve any of those, Trump especially.  The rural working class has been voting for neo-liberal economic policy against their own interests for decades and they are paying for it now. Instead of embracing the rural working class, the democrats abandoned them and have slipped into the same mold as the Republican party.

The fear mongering and insane misinformation about "socialism" is truly hilarious. Its very similar to the climate-change denial propaganda in its absurdity.


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## policemedic (Dec 9, 2016)

benroliver said:


> You get kids from all walks of life getting busted for marijuana who go to big boy prison and end up real criminals by the time they are out.



It does bear mentioning that if they've been convicted of a crime and sent to prison (and if it's big boy prison, as you say) they are by definition real criminals when they go in.  Smoke weed to manage a medical condition, despite it being illegal?  I feel for you, I really truly do.  Smoking weed because it's fun and you just don't agree with a plant being illegal? Screw you; learn to follow the law until you can get it changed.

Teaching trades and such has some value, but if they were really interested they'd do it themselves when they got out.  Better yet, they wouldn't have done something to get themselves locked up in the first place.

I take issue with the idea that people continue to engage in criminal activity as a result of society's failure to properly motivate or rehabilitate them.  The truth is, people commit crimes because of an internal moral failure (I'm speaking generally; stealing food to eat is an obvious exception).  Blame it on poor parenting, nature, or the phase of the moon at the time of their birth but at the end of the day people are responsible for their own behavior and they must be held accountable for it.


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## policemedic (Dec 9, 2016)

benroliver said:


> .
> 
> The fear mongering and insane misinformation about "socialism" is truly hilarious. Its very similar to the climate-change denial propaganda in its absurdity.



Interesting.  Do you believe socialism is a good path for us to follow or do you not believe Sanders is a socialist?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 9, 2016)

benroliver said:


> No I don't, I supported Sanders but he got screwed.  Criminal activity, corruption, and misuse of official capacity are all descriptions of Trump as well. Some of those issues I agree with like political correctness, joblessness, and indebtedness.   Trump and Clinton don't solve any of those, Trump especially.  The rural working class has been voting for neo-liberal economic policy against their own interests for decades and they are paying for it now. Instead of embracing the rural working class, the democrats abandoned them and have slipped into the same mold as the Republican party.
> 
> The fear mongering and insane misinformation about "socialism" is truly hilarious. Its very similar to the climate-change denial propaganda in its absurdity.




LOL, you and I see the current state of our nation, our national politics and economic status about 180 degrees out from each other. Being that we've somewhat derailed from the threads intent and that I see zero benefit to either of us by further debating such, I'm swing this conversation back to my point in my post.

When people make decisions to do things that go against the rules, laws and norms of the society they presently reside. They will face consequences,  they have no ability to manipulate the type of consequences they face, because those consequences are decided by impartial, trusted individuals appointed by society. Now this society may be a college setting, or a prison, or the local city, etc. When you fail to abide by rules, laws and norms, you disrupt that society. When that happens, those trusted impartial people are required to step in, and correct, punish or inactive consequences to maintain the social fabric of good order within the society.

Now this may be payment of a fine, as it was for my motor vehicle traffic violation. It maybe solitary confinement in prison for fighting with other inmates. It maybe a swift kick in the ass and tossed out the door by the bouncer at the local bar. The point is, if you fail to follow the rules/laws you face a consequence, when you do that, people need to be accountable for such. Not bitch and complain, but be able to self evaluate, understand that their failure has lead to a consequence,  and their accountability is to face said consequences, meet the punishment and learn to not break the rules and laws of society again. It's not the systems fault when people fail to do so. Its the individuals fault.

Now if the system has become lopsided in its ability to inact proper consequences that are fitting for the offense,  than it is up to society to correct that via those trusted officials.

I don't feel solitary confinement is a wrong thing for punishment of those who fail to follow rules and laws within the penal society makeup. It's about the only thing they can do beside beating them or executing them. When your faced with the options of dealing with individuals who are in prison who are still failing to comply with the social format, you are left with very few options. Locking someone in a room is the more humane method of dealing with it, in my personal opinion.


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## Devildoc (Dec 9, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> I'm a strong man, I got no business hitting kids. I told my wife that when I first met her. My old man used to hit me. He made a paddle out of a board, painted it bright red enamel, drilled a hole through the handle and put a leather thong in it so he could hang it up on a hook in the closet. He used to whack the hell out of me with that stick. Until I got big. I came back from the war and I saw the fear in his eyes for the first time.
> 
> So I never hit my kids. I yelled like a Senior Drill Instructor, but I never laid a hand on them and they turned out to be great kids. I left the spanking up to my wife and she'd bare their little bottoms once in a while and spank em and they'd just laugh at her.
> 
> ...



There is a difference between abusive hitting, and spanking.  I was raised much like you (my mother was NOT a "spare the rod" kinda woman), and I vowed that if I ever spanked it would be "correctly."  As it turns out, with my 6 kids I can probably count the number of times I have spanked them on two hands over almost 15 years.  I appreciate and admire your deliberate and conscientious decision and your unorthodox discipline.


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## benroliver (Dec 9, 2016)

policemedic said:


> Interesting.  Do you believe socialism is a good path for us to follow or do you not believe Sanders is a socialist?



Well Sanders isn't a Socialist by any measure.  He claims to be a Democratic Socialist but that is a stretch.  He is really a Social Democrat.  Some of his policy I like and some I do not.  There are aspects of socialism that are already an integral part of this country.


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## benroliver (Dec 9, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> LOL, you and I see the current state of our nation, our national politics and economic status about 180 degrees out from each other. Being that we've somewhat derailed from the threads intent and that I see zero benefit to either of us by further debating such, I'm swing this conversation back to my point in my post.
> 
> When people make decisions to do things that go against the rules, laws and norms of the society they presently reside. They will face consequences,  they have no ability to manipulate the type of consequences they face, because those consequences are decided by impartial, trusted individuals appointed by society. Now this society may be a college setting, or a prison, or the local city, etc. When you fail to abide by rules, laws and norms, you disrupt that society. When that happens, those trusted impartial people are required to step in, and correct, punish or inactive consequences to maintain the social fabric of good order within the society.
> 
> ...




This may surprise you but I do not disagree with any of that.  The question is, do our punishments fit the crime? Do they perpetuate the problem? .  This is where I tend to to be very skeptical of the Government and increased overreach. Privatized prisons are particularly absurd to me.


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## pardus (Dec 9, 2016)

This thread is not supposed to be a fucking abortion, and yet...

Keep the thread on track, please motherfuckers.

Solitary Confinement.


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## benroliver (Dec 10, 2016)

pardus said:


> This thread is not supposed to be a fucking abortion, and yet...
> 
> Keep the thread on track, please motherfuckers.
> 
> Solitary Confinement.



Lol I is probably my fault, apologies.


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## RustyShackleford (Dec 13, 2016)

policemedic said:


> Felony drug charges usually apply to distribution, not possession, so if someone catches a felony case they are more involved in the trade than a casual toker.



The problem is what constitutes mere possession rather than distribution?  It wasn't that long ago that the threshold to federally charge someone with possession with intent to distribute crack cocaine was 5g.  For reference, that is equal to 5 packets of Equal.  After decades of locking up people for 5-10 (or more) years for what amounts to user amounts of crack, the threshold was raised to 28g...and the FBI statisticians frowned.


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## Gunz (Dec 13, 2016)

Put a crazy man in a little box for months at a time and you'll just make him crazier.

How about this: take a page from the VA handbook, circa 1978, and medicate the fuck out of them so they're as harmless as kittens.


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