# Priority of the big lifts.



## reed11b (Mar 28, 2015)

Most basic strength programs talk of the importance of Squats, Deadlift, Bench, Overhead Press, Clean and sometimes Bent Over Row. What lifts do you prioritize for Military strength? My rank is
1. Squat (we use our legs in almost every activity
2. Deadlift (pick up heavy things + grip)
3. Bench (cause I like it damnit!)
4 Overhead Press (push heavy things up overhead, like on top of a track)
5 Clean (power)
I don't do the row, as it is difficult to do it right w/o hurting your back and do pull-ups instead. 
What did I miss? Would you change the order of importance of any of the lifts?
Reed


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## amorris127289 (Mar 28, 2015)

My order would be
1. Clean 
2. Clean pulls, rather than a dead lift
3. Squats, both front and back
4. Upper body pulls (body rows and pull-ups)
5. Upper body Presses

I rank the lifts in this order because cleans create power and triple extension. Clean pulls because I would rather be able to move a lot of weight fast rather than slow, however as your grip strength increases you will be able to pick more weights up slowly. Squats, every one needs squats. And presses are ranked fifth. Presses include bench and overhead and any other type of upper body presses these cannot be excluded no matter how minimal they transition into "functional movements" because studies have shown that as Americans we emphasize on the pushing motion rather than the pulling and if you cut them out completely (I am referring to flat bench) you will suffer psychologically with strength. I am only in my Senior year of college right now, Exercise Science Wellness Major, and not in the military but this is how we approach our athletes, and our view is if you make a more well rounded athlete, then everything else will get better around it. I love hearing other views on this topic, never stop learning.


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## CDG (Mar 28, 2015)

Cleans and clean pulls are hitting the same basic muscle groups.  The clean pull is an auxiliary lift used to improve the clean, it's not a raw strength movement.  In my experience, a lot of people that advocate for avoiding deadlifts are just scared.  The deadlift is a perfectly safe movement. People who fuck it up are the ones who are unsafe, not the lift.  It's also the second best lift for building total body strength behind the squat, IMO.


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## amorris127289 (Mar 28, 2015)

CDG I love deadlifts. The reason I say clean pulls is because I am use to working with athletes for sports, and our head S&C coach's focus is on the cleans. My big three are Incline bench, Back squat, Deadlifts, and I have been following SOFWOD's so I get all my other work in or I supplement it in every now and then. I should of said a speed dead lift rather than a clean pull, I was picturing the video of Dave Castro doing his DL for like 15seconds when I was thinknig of a DL.


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## amorris127289 (Mar 28, 2015)

Which is more important, the big lifts or control of your own body weight? in your own opinion


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## Hillclimb (Mar 28, 2015)

How are we defining military strength?

Squats
Running
Presses
Weighted or bw pullups

Running because fighting gravity with my 230lb fatass is a lift and magical to me. I typically shy from deadlifts because I've always been able to maintain a 405+ deadlift without deadlifting; just squatting.


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## reed11b (Mar 28, 2015)

Football may be a poor sport comparison for military athletic needs. Though I doubt I would have made it through basic if it had not been for football and wrestling in HS, I can think of few times I needed explosive power in the military, but many times I needed long slog endurance and raw strength. When I talk of basic lifts, it's separate from long slog muscular endurance, so I don't consider running a lift. Paging Dr. A.Love Dr Love... @amlove21 .


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## amorris127289 (Mar 28, 2015)

What about sleds and farmer carry type exercises for overall strength? Did you use those by chance, in your PT or on your own?


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## reed11b (Mar 28, 2015)

No on both, though both are coming up soon in future programming. Focusing on basic lifts as a core strength building and not trying to expand too much into alternative means of strength training. Basic lifts are familiar to most in the military, take little programming time and are easy to find resources on how to use good form and to correct bad form. Kind of a "if you had a barbell and could only choose 4-6 lifts, what would you choose and what priority" type question.
Reed


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## amorris127289 (Mar 28, 2015)

Do you have any experience with snatch?


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## reed11b (Mar 28, 2015)

amorris127289 said:


> Do you have any experience with snatch?


Lots. Unless you mean the Olympic lift, in which case not so much...
Reed


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## CDG (Mar 29, 2015)

reed11b said:


> No on both, though both are coming up soon in future programming. *Focusing on basic lifts as a core strength building and not trying to expand too much into alternative means of strength training. *Basic lifts are familiar to most in the military, take little programming time and are easy to find resources on how to use good form and to correct bad form. Kind of a "if you had a barbell and could only choose 4-6 lifts, what would you choose and what priority" type question.
> Reed



If this is your goal, do Starting Strength from Rippetoe.  By far the best basic strength program for a beginning lifter.  When you grow out of it, move on to the Texas Method. 

https://www.t-nation.com/training/texas-method


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## reed11b (Mar 29, 2015)

CDG said:


> If this is your goal, do Starting Strength from Rippetoe.  By far the best basic strength program for a beginning lifter.  When you grow out of it, move on to the Texas Method.
> 
> https://www.t-nation.com/training/texas-method


I have been doing Starting Strength. Not looking for a program, but more of a discussion of the benefits of the individual lifts. (I clearly suck at creating new topic threads) I will be checking out that Texas Method though, so thanks for that.
Reed


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 29, 2015)

Benefits = You become stronger
What exactly are you trying to figure out? What are you trying to accomplish by implementing these lifts? 
Perhaps including what your (expected/hopeful) end game is would give us a bit more to work with regarding your question.


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## reed11b (Mar 29, 2015)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Benefits = You become stronger
> What exactly are you trying to figure out? What are you trying to accomplish by implementing these lifts?
> Perhaps including what your (expected/hopeful) end game is would give us a bit more to work with regarding your question.


Yup, I suck at starting threads. *I* am not looking for anything. I'm already invested in my fitness programming, I was interested in a discussion on how *others* prioritized the big lifts in order of importance to them and why.
Reed


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## Etype (Mar 29, 2015)

Olympic lifts are all done with controlled pulls, whereas the deadlift can be a true maximal effort pull.  I wouldn't prioritize cleans or snatches above a deadlift unless I was an actual Olympic athlete.


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## amlove21 (Mar 30, 2015)

amorris127289 said:


> My order would be
> 1. Clean
> 2. Clean pulls, rather than a dead lift
> 3. Squats, both front and back
> ...


I would disagree here. Not with the bolded (true) but with ranking the clean highly because of the bolded. The clean develops power very well, but as far as military dudes and working out, making the clean the main food group (and going as far to add an assistance exercise for the clean as it's own area and excluding a traditional pull is off the mark, IMO. 



amorris127289 said:


> I was picturing the video of Dave Castro doing his DL for like 15seconds when I was thinknig of a DL.


It was like, 45 seconds bro. And terrible. 



amorris127289 said:


> Which is more important, the big lifts or control of your own body weight? in your own opinion


Well, I mean, both really. I'll expound on the main lifts in a second, but speed and agility work can be easily added to a very basic program with little or no detriment to the main program. Unless you're talking about true gymnastics, at which point I would say that (like any specialization) the juice is rarely worth the squeeze. Meaning, the time it takes to build/maintain that adaptation.


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## amlove21 (Mar 30, 2015)

I'll split this into two posts for the two topics. 

If I was going to prioritize my programming, I would (and do) organize it like this-

1. Using a linear progression, I would focus on the squat, presses (bench and standing), deadlift, and all other pulls (pullups, rows, etc). This would be my basic food group. 

You can "triple extend" all you want- if you cant lift 350 lbs and you need to lift 350 lbs, no amount of "developed power" or "speed and explosive pulling" is going to bail you out. I prefer overall global strength, I just feel it's more useful in general. 

2. I would program variations of the above and include development of power as an accessory to the above. Clean and jerk, snatch, thruster, jumps and plyos, sled pulls/pushes, sprints, etc. 

3. I would include bodyweight/speed and agility drills once a week. Shuttle runs, ladder/hurdle drills, gymnastic movements (ring work and the like) just for some rounding out. 

So, @reed11b , I think you're just fine. There are a couple other programs out there (in addition to the already mentioned Texas Method) that are basically a step up from where you are now- Greyskull LP  was great for me initially. If you ever decide to go hard in the paint, the Smolov cycle is amazing for gains, but nearly impossible to get through. I am starting my second cycle of Smolov tomorrow, coincidentally, and I am in no way looking forward to it.


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## CDG (Mar 30, 2015)

amlove21 said:


> I'll split this into two posts for the two topics.
> 
> If I was going to prioritize my programming, I would (and do) organize it like this-
> 
> ...



Great post.  John Sheaffer really knows his stuff. I had done some private consulting with him and had amazing results.  This was back in my competitive CrossFit days though.  I also had great results with the Outlaw Method.  Sadly, I just can't do programs like that and still maintain the running and bodyweight fitness for work.  More power to you for doing Smolov brother.  Fuck. That. Shit.


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## amlove21 (Mar 30, 2015)

CDG said:


> Great post.  John Sheaffer really knows his stuff. I had done some private consulting with him and had amazing results.  This was back in my competitive CrossFit days though.  I also had great results with the Outlaw Method.  Sadly, I just can't do programs like that and still maintain the running and bodyweight fitness for work.  More power to you for doing Smolov brother.  Fuck. That. Shit.


Smolov really is a hellish nightmare. The squat is my best lift, and I wanna squat 500 this year. I hit 350 for 10 about a week ago, and tomorrow my work set looks like 350 for 7 sets of 5 reps. It's freaking taxing squatting 3-4 times a week. 

My wife is actually Outlaw SC certified, and I love their programming. Some of their personalities I could do without, but it's not a deal breaker. Good catch on that one, shouldn't have left it out.


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## amorris127289 (Mar 30, 2015)

amlove21 said:


> I'll split this into two posts for the two topics.
> 
> If I was going to prioritize my programming, I would (and do) organize it like this-
> 
> ...




awesome!
My order of prioritization has changed since I posted what I did. This morning we had a discussion on this while waiting between practices.

We also discussed if odd object and med balls can be substituted for cleans and snatches and still get power gains.


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## amorris127289 (Mar 30, 2015)

Have any of you read into the Crossfit football programming for strength?


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## amlove21 (Mar 30, 2015)

amorris127289 said:


> Have any of you read into the Crossfit football programming for strength?


Yeah, and I have followed Josh Wellbourn's programming for a while. That's another one that I like and that I think has great application. I had a team mate of mine follow it nearly exclusively and saw some awesome gains.


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## Etype (Mar 31, 2015)

If you folks are prioritizing cleans and snatches, you need to read up on some of the eastern European literature on Olympic lifting- particularly the Bulgarian method.

Basically- variations of squats, deadlifts, and presses are performed for strength whereas the actual two main o-lifts are treated as skills.

If you can deadlift 585 and front squat 405, a 315 clean is just a matter of technique.


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## Poccington (Apr 3, 2015)

I love these kinda threads on here, you lads always come out with some really good stuff. I'll add my 2 cents later as I'm off out for a while.

PS. Amlove... Smolov, a second time!? You sick bastard.


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## amorris127289 (Apr 4, 2015)

http://www.soflete.com/knowledge/

"*Everything you know about tactical fitness is wrong.* For the majority of the coaches and trainers reading this, this is true.  There are a few guys in the game doing things the right way, and those that are seem to exist in the shadows. Outcasts from the community of bodyweight ninjas and kettle bell aficionados, there is a group of guys who are implementing sprinting, heavy lifting, and stamina based training. 

Let's get this clarification out of the way. There is a fundamental difference between stamina and endurance. Endurance is defined as “the ability to continue or last, especially despite fatigue.” It is the ability to put one foot in front of the other, and there is no doubt that endurance certainly has its place in some circles. This is extremely apparent in any form of SOF Selection. 

Stamina is defined as “Strength of physical constitution.” Words mean things, and stamina has strength at its forefront- meaning you must have strength in order to have stamina. In athletic capabilities, this means you can’t have true stamina without a basis of strength. This is the basis of our training, and although we can explain it in literary terms, it is deeply rooted in decades of experience. Hard lessons learned by the SOFLETE coaches in actual Special Operations experience. With backgrounds as SEAL’s, MARSOC Raiders, Green Beret’s, and Recon Marines (as well as instructors for Assessment and Selection, BRC, SQT, and SW), we know the physical demands of Selection processes as well as demands of an operational team. Possibly more important- we realize that preparing for a selection is an event specific training regimen and the physical necessities are different from when you are actually in a team. 









*“I want to be able to pick up the heaviest guy on my team and run with him.”*

I was talking with a Major who had become a Green Beret before I graduated middle school, joined the military, or started chasing this thing called fitness. We were discussing fitness, and how the job unfortunately often led to not being able to workout enough due to time constraints and operational commitments. We were talking about different movements and training goals. He told me he cared less about his two mile run time. His focus was on his ability to save the lives of his men. Somehow, without knowing it he hit the nail on the head. Every time I hear somebody tell a guy in the military they see “no need to go that heavy” or they only need to have good conditioning and be able to move their own body, I cringe. Sure, a typical day in the military isn’t carrying your friends after they get shot and having to run with them. By the same token, a typical day in the military isn’t slinging lead with terrorists for twelve hours and having to speed reload your rifle because you’re burning it down so much. However, I offer this:

*In every aspect of military training we prepare for the extremes, the worst case scenario, the unknown and the unplanned. We train for this because even if you do everything perfect- you can still die.*

When is the last time you did a medical package and practiced how to give your buddy ibuprofen, and get some rest? In over a decade of combat we must have learned that failure does not occur in the mundane but rather the extremes. Just like walking a patrol, the majority of your work is pretty mundane - you’re walking wearing kit in the heat and that sucks. Injuries and failures do not occur during the majority of your steps, they occur in the mistakes, the anomalies, and the few seconds in time where you move into the extremes of your work. Jumping a wadi, tripping over a rock, sprinting to cover, diving into cover, and picking up something in an odd position are where injuries occur. It’s not in the perfect step on flat ground that you twist an ankle. 

Now imagine you are of the train of thought that conditioning is all you need and the most weight you ever work with in the gym (a controlled environment) is your body weight, or an additional 100 or so pounds. If you weigh 200 pounds and you’re used to working with an additional 60lbs of kit and a 53lb kettlebell, the most weight you are used to working with or “conditioned” to work with is roughly 313 pounds in total - and this is in a controlled linear fashion. Imagine now you are in combat, again wearing 60lbs of kit, and you have to jump across a wadi to continue a patrol. The force exerted on your body is exponentially higher than 313 pounds. Even worse is the fact that these forces are hitting your body at a faster rate than you have ever prepared for. With true strength training, as well as training your ability to perform large amounts of work over and over again with short breaks, you bolster your ability to go through operational life uninjured. 

“You do not rise to the occasion; rather you sink to your level of training.”

When you are asking or thinking “What is SOFLETE?”, this is the answer: We’re a team of rough men who understand our operational environment. We understand how the human body works, we understand its capabilities, and we understand how to increase those capabilities and human performance. We offer simple programming solutions to complex problems with an emphasis on strength, stamina, and rehabilitation. We afford our training team the ability to track their performance work loads to better enhance those attributes. Most importantly, we hate seeing lazy athletic trainers, especially if they are training our brothers in arms. " 

Opinions?


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## SkrewzLoose (Apr 6, 2015)

Hmm...I've run that O-course a few times.


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## Etype (Apr 7, 2015)

My opinion is this-
There's a difference between making through the various selections/training programs, and between being the best operator/SEAL/Ranger/MARSOC dude that you can be.   Take each as they come.


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## ThunderHorse (Apr 9, 2015)

In all of the programs I've done Bench, Squat, Deadlift have been maintstays...only in my current one did the squat become a supplemental lift, but I am squatting twice/week rather the one with a front vs split squat.


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## Salt USMC (Apr 12, 2015)

amlove21 said:


> Smolov really is a hellish nightmare. The squat is my best lift, and I wanna squat 500 this year. I hit 350 for 10 about a week ago, and tomorrow my work set looks like 350 for 7 sets of 5 reps. It's freaking taxing squatting 3-4 times a week.


Just a word of advice that you may have heard already, but I think really bears repeating: the main Smolov program is really meant for dudes using some kind of "assistance".  I suppose it's possible to complete the full program and not destroy your hip joints, but but if you're not on something it's going to be really difficult.  The Smolov Jr bench protocol actually works pretty good if you tweak it a bit and apply it to the squat. 

Another program that really helped my squat was the Coan-Philippi deadlift program.  It hits all of the right exercises for deadlift, and if you use sumo instead of conventional it will make your glutes and hamstrings very strong which will naturally lend itself to squatting heavier.


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## amlove21 (Apr 12, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Just a word of advice that you may have heard already, but I think really bears repeating: the main Smolov program is really meant for dudes using some kind of "assistance".  I suppose it's possible to complete the full program and not destroy your hip joints, but but if you're not on something it's going to be really difficult.  The Smolov Jr bench protocol actually works pretty good if you tweak it a bit and apply it to the squat.
> 
> Another program that really helped my squat was the Coan-Philippi deadlift program.  It hits all of the right exercises for deadlift, and if you use sumo instead of conventional it will make your glutes and hamstrings very strong which will naturally lend itself to squatting heavier.


I got ya on all of it. I am (obviously) not on any gear at the moment, but I completed the full Smolov cycle while I was deployed with no issues, so it's possible. You just have to be very, very disciplined about mobility, proper technique, and not being a little bitch. I have always squatted at a very high volume, so I am sort of built for a high volume program. 

I will check out the CP program. I have been playing around with a Westside Conjugate for a bit, with mixed results. However, most of that is probably due to me not devoting a fully focused shot at it.


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## Salt USMC (Apr 12, 2015)

amlove21 said:


> I got ya on all of it. I am (obviously) not on any gear at the moment, but I completed the full Smolov cycle while I was deployed with no issues, so it's possible. You just have to be very, very disciplined about mobility, proper technique, and not being a little bitch. I have always squatted at a very high volume, so I am sort of built for a high volume program.
> 
> I will check out the CP program. I have been playing around with a Westside Conjugate for a bit, with mixed results. However, most of that is probably due to me not devoting a fully focused shot at it.


I bow to your superior recovery ability.  How much did you add to your max, if I may ask?  Smolov murdered me when I tried it many moons ago, though I didn't know nearly enough about rest and nutrition as I do now.  I think that I stalled somewhere around week 9 and had to repeat it two or three times, and eventually just said "fuck it" and went back to regular lifting.  Perhaps doing the program in 18 or even 20 weeks would make it more bearable to natural lifters.

How are you running Westside?  That's one of those programs that really benefits from having good training partners around you.  I suppose that's true for ANY program, but having done a smattering of different programs in addition to the conjugate method, it seems like WS really shines in a team environment.  Just as well, if you have access to some of the speciality implements that Louie recommends, you'll get more out of it.  YMMV, but for me and lifters that I've talked to, classic Westside is kind of hard to do in a regular gym.


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## amlove21 (Apr 12, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> I bow to your superior recovery ability.  How much did you add to your max, if I may ask?  Smolov murdered me when I tried it many moons ago, though I didn't know nearly enough about rest and nutrition as I do now.  I think that I stalled somewhere around week 9 and had to repeat it two or three times, and eventually just said "fuck it" and went back to regular lifting.  Perhaps doing the program in 18 or even 20 weeks would make it more bearable to natural lifters.
> 
> How are you running Westside?  That's one of those programs that really benefits from having good training partners around you.  I suppose that's true for ANY program, but having done a smattering of different programs in addition to the conjugate method, it seems like WS really shines in a team environment.  Just as well, if you have access to some of the speciality implements that Louie recommends, you'll get more out of it.  YMMV, but for me and lifters that I've talked to, classic Westside is kind of hard to do in a regular gym.


I added the standard 40 lbs to my squat max. I am a very trained athlete at this point, so the 60lbs that novice lifters see was never really a possibility for me. I would have been happy with 30. 

As far as my recovery, I have a good friend thats super smart on the kinesiology/physiology of intense programs, and I got some of the best advice from him. If you can tolerate it, just kill yourself with mobility and really take care of yourself. Watch the inflammation. Drink tons of water. Actually mobilize like your life depends on it. And you're going to be sore- warm up until youre not as sore and then get into your work set. Do that for 6 weeks, and youll be ready for the intense phase. 

As for WS- the reasons you stated are the exact reasons why I have only experimented. I train by myself (have for a decade now) and I cant do board presses and the like. I like banded squats/DL's, but it's just that side of practical sometimes. I am more using the conjugate method of heavy assistance work and simple progressions in the overall big lifts to increase global strength/power.


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## Etype (Apr 14, 2015)

amorris127289 said:


> We also discussed if odd object and med balls can be substituted for cleans and snatches and still get power gains.


This comes down to specificity.  In the beginning phases of fitness, anything will make you better.  As you improve,  you need to focus your efforts.

Doing bodyweight squats will increase the 1RM of a novice trainee.  Going to the other extreme of the spectrum,  bodyweight squats will do nothing for Andrey Malanichev in terms of improving his 1,014# raw squat.  He does little to no assistance work outside of the the 3 main lifts.


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## ThunderHorse (Apr 14, 2015)

So we're taking a tactical training box out on this field problem...it shows a guy benching...but I think I'll just do presses.


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