# Does this man deserve flag rank?



## racing_kitty (Feb 17, 2012)

From the Washington Times:




> On the list is Navy Reserve Capt. Timothy W. Dorsey, the same man who, while assigned to the aircraft carrier USS Saratoga, committed what the report said was an “illogical act.”  *snip*
> 
> *snip* His promotion to admiral has some in the aviation community shaking their heads, especially because minor discretions by flight officers over the past decades have resulted in reprimands and the ends of career.


 

Now keep in mind, his mistake wasn't "I got the Humvee stuck in the quicksand," or "I pulled too close to a hole in the road, causing it to collapse and fuck up the front end of my big-ass MRAP."  He damned near got people killed as a LT(jg).  And now he's about to become a rear admiral.  

Personally, I think the level of fuck-up was just too big to forgive.  Opinions?


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 17, 2012)

On the one hand, whatever happened, happened a long time ago.  On the other... wtf, he SHOT DOWN another aircraft during a training exercise, and they let him STAY IN THE SERVICE?


----------



## AWP (Feb 17, 2012)

Holy shit!


----------



## Salt USMC (Feb 17, 2012)

As monumentally DUMB as that particular event was, someone at some level decided to retain him, albeit in a non-flying capacity.  As much as he should've gotten the boot, he's apparently been doing pretty well as an intelligence officer, so with all that in mind (and taking the large amount of time lapsed into consideration) I'd say it's okay to promote this guy.  

Although, it's rather disconcerting to think about the amount of influence his Dad may have had in saving his career.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 17, 2012)

I guess it's lucky for him that even with gross negligence, they can only take two months' pay.  It would suck to have to repay the cost of an Air Force plane.

Oh yeah, and it's lucky for him he had a powerful father.

I'm surprised that the pilots of the other plane haven't tracked him down and beaten his ass.


----------



## CDG (Feb 17, 2012)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Although, it's rather disconcerting to think about the amount of influence his Dad may have had in saving his career.


 
This is the first thought that I had as well.  That he has friends in high-places that saved his ass.  Long time ago or not, the severity of the mistake should govern what action is taken.  Some mistakes are more serious than others and should be treated accordingly.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 17, 2012)

CDG said:


> This is the first thought that I had as well. That he has friends in high-places that saved his ass. Long time ago or not, the severity of the mistake should govern what action is taken. Some mistakes are more serious than others and should be treated accordingly.


 
I agree.  This probably should have been an "unrecoverable" mistake.  The promotion rate for O2 to O3 in the Army is something like 99%; I would like to think that if a comparable event had happened in the Army, that young officer would have been a "1%-er" when it came time for everyone else to get promoted to O3.


----------



## Salt USMC (Feb 17, 2012)

Perhaps attitudes were different back then.  I'm not an officer so I can't comment on that promotion system, but it seems like these days if you get a DUI or are assigned to some fatbody program then you can kiss that next promotion goodbye.  Who knows?  He's been in the service for 47 years.  Maybe he languished as a JG for 10 years before the board even deigned to look at him?  Nevertheless, he was (somehow) able to recover from this incident and do good things that didn't involve shooting missiles at things.  As a pilot, he's definitely a failure.  But as an Intel officer?  Maybe he deserves it.


----------



## Chopstick (Feb 17, 2012)

IDK why but this comes to mind...


----------



## Arrow 4 (Feb 18, 2012)

I think the question should be, is this the right man for that specific job? If the answer to that question is Yes, then promote him. We have all had fuck ups...most of us have had fuck ups that could easily have ended in the loss of someone's life if not our own. If you learn from those mistakes and not get the boot, thank God and drive on.


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 18, 2012)

I'll admit, y'all have a point.  I'm just astounded how many careers were over before they started for blowing a 0.09, and this guy got a second chance.  Good on him for making the best of it.  But damn...


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 18, 2012)

He was grounded.

Left Active Duty and began a Reserve Career.

Became an Intel Guy (which alone should bar him from flag rank ) , then serving in IG assignments; he seems to have had a decent Intel Career.

No, I don't begrudge him his promotions.


----------



## AWP (Feb 18, 2012)

He has almost as many kills as some Patriot batteries.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 18, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> He has almost as many  kills as some Patriot batteries.


 
Can't recall any Patriot Commanders losing their heads for bad shots.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 18, 2012)

i remembered the incident, and Incident Board.  Google can be friendly.

On an early fall afternoon in September, 1987, Vodka 51, an RF-4C, departed Aviano Air Base in Italy bound, for the Mediterranean. Their job that day was to find the US aircraft carrier USS Saratoga. Of course, part of Exercise Display Determination, a joint USAF, USN and NATO exercise, taking place in the Med, was for Navy assets to defend the carrier and stop detection of its location. The search for the carrier and the defense of it, as always, were to occur within the exercise ROE. 

Vodka 51 was flying a special RF-4 TEREC that day. TEREC, Tactical Electronic Reconnaissance, was the AN/ALQ-125, which enabled detection of electronic beeps and squeaks that could emanate from various sources, one being an aircraft carrier group. That’s how Vodka 51 planned to find the Saratoga.

After the flight across Northern Italy and into the Mediterranean, the first order of business for Vodka 51 was to hit a tanker for airborne refueling. Join up and hook up with the tanker was routine and uneventful. While taking gas the RF-4 crew noticed a Navy F-14 had joined on the tanker’s wing. Thinking nothing of it Vodka 51 concentrated on the task and hand and, once topped off, disconnected and left the tanker track to start their search. As they turned away, Vodka noticed the Tomcat did not stay with the tanker but appeared to follow them.

Vodka 51 got their TEREC equipment up and running then started their flight search pattern to hunt for the Saratoga. As it seems to happen on occasion, the cosmic stuff decides not to work and, on this day, the TEREC gear failed to operate. However, the RF-4 guys did notice the TACAN channel that was in use on the Saratoga three days prior was up and transmitting. That would allow them to make the briefed intercept of the Saratoga. As the Vodka 51 started down to the intercept altitude they lost sight of the Tomcat. Fifteen minutes after departing the tanker. a massive explosion engulfed the RF-4. Both the pilot and the WSO were able to eject. Although ejection parameters were not ideal, 550Kts, 5500 feet and negative 2.5 G’s, it was better than not getting out at all. All the egress equipment worked as briefed and, once they regained consciousness, they both found themselves under parachute canopies that settled them down to the warm waters of the Mediterranean. Their time in the water was relatively short, 45 minutes. A Navy rescue helicopter picked them up and brought them to the carrier. Vodka 51 had finally found the Saratoga.

Once they had been medically checked over and given dry clothes Vodka 51 met with the carrier CO. He asked them if they knew what had happened. When they said they thought they might have had a mid-air with the F-14 that had been following them, the CO said, “No, that F-14 was one of ours and he shot you down.” The WSO’s response was, "I thought we were on the same side sir!" To which the Admiral answered, "Normally we are."

After departing the tanker, the F-14 had indeed followed Vodka 51. The Tomcat was being flown by a young, Navy LTJG, tactical call sign "Smoke," a player in the exercise, whose task it was to defend the carrier. Apparently, this was going to be quite an atta-boy, quickly eliminating an adversary so early in the exercise It was his luck that day to see the RF-4 come on station and to be able to follow him into the exercise area after refueling. It was also his luck, or misfortune, that day to be flying with live ordinance for Fleet defense when he was re-tasked from that role to participate in the exercise. The F-14 HUD video recorded his call to the carrier asking, within exercise rules, to engage the RF-4. He was given clearance, within exercise rules, to shoot and destroy Vodka 51. On the video you can plainly hear the Navy fighter pilot call up his left missile. You can hear him say everything is good, announce he’s firing the missile and a release cue is displayed. However, the left missile had a motor malfunction and didn't fire. You can hear the pilot is somewhat confused when no missile departed the rail. Next you hear on the HUD video as the Tomcat pilot called up his right missile and announce everything is good. This time when the release cue is displayed you also see the F-14 is inside the Break X signal, that he's 2500 feet behind the RF-4 and the Air Force jet’s Zweibrucken AB, Germany tail flash, ZR, can plainly be seen. Then a live AIM-9 flashes into the HUD field of view and makes its way to the RF-4 where it impacts in front of the tail section resulting in a huge explosion. While all this is going on, you can hear the RIO’s profanity filled screams asking his pilot what has he done. Then starting a rescue effort the RIO transmits, “MAYDAY, MAYDAY MAYDAY, WE'VE JUST SHOT DOWN THE F-4 AT 060/05 FROM MOTHER, NO CHUTES, NO CHUTES, NO CHUTES.” 

A few interesting side notes. 

*One of the ROE’s of the exercise was that no participating aircraft were allowed to carry live missiles.*

The Navy LTJG, when asked later by the accident investigation board, said, yes, indeed, he intended to shoot a live missile. He was not court-martialed but put on non-flying duties and never flew again.

This very same LTJG’s father was an active Navy Vice Admiral who, when flying combat missions in Vietnam, accidentally shot down his wingman.

*The pilot of Vodka 51 has ever since been known as Squidbait. He’s had numerous back surgeries as a result of the Martin-Baker ejection; the most recent, earlier this year, 2008.*

The accident board determined that Vodka 51 was very lucky to have almost full fuel tanks. Had those fuel tanks been mostly empty, filled with fuel vapors, the explosion would have been much more massive, ripping the RF-4 apart and almost certainly killing the crew.


----------



## CDG (Feb 18, 2012)

SOWT said:


> *The Navy LTJG, when asked later by the accident investigation board, said, yes, indeed, he intended to shoot a live missile*. He was not court-martialed but put on non-flying duties and never flew again.
> 
> *This very same LTJG’s father was an active Navy Vice Admiral who, when flying combat missions in Vietnam, accidentally shot down his wingman.*
> The accident board determined that Vodka 51 was very lucky to have almost full fuel tanks. Had those fuel tanks been mostly empty, filled with fuel vapors, the explosion would have been much more massive, ripping the RF-4 apart and almost certainly killing the crew.


 
The apple does not fall far from the tree.

So he MEANT to shoot a live missile?  Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over.  I could give a shit how good of an intel officer he is.  If some PFC 11B "accidentally" shot a Bradley with a live AT-4 I bet they wouldn't just let him transfer MOSs.  Ridiculous.  This clown should have been booted after the investigation.


----------



## Arrow 4 (Feb 18, 2012)

So he MEANT to shoot a live missile? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over. I could give a shit how good of an intel officer he is. If some PFC 11B "accidentally" shot a Bradley with a live AT-4 I bet they wouldn't just let him transfer MOSs. Ridiculous. This clown should have been booted after the investigation.[/quote]

I can't argue with that logic, he should have been booted.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 18, 2012)

Arrow 4 said:


> So he MEANT to shoot a live missile? Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over. I could give a shit how good of an intel officer he is. If some PFC 11B "accidentally" shot a Bradley with a live AT-4 I bet they wouldn't just let him transfer MOSs. Ridiculous. This clown should have been booted after the investigation.


 
I can't argue with that logic, he should have been booted.[/quote]
Like the guy who fired the LAW (?) into the ammo dump during Desert Shield? Did they boot his ass?


You guys are missing some of the findings from the incident board.

This happened during the COLD WAR.
Carrier Battle Groups (aka CVG's) had a no-shit MiG CAP up. This guy started the day flying MiG CAP; was re-fragged (after take off) to play in the exercise (in violation of the exercise directive). Why don't people demand that the CAG and Battle Group Commander take a hit? He was put into the situation when he should not have been in the game.

The "Real World" kill that guy Pro-word was the same as the exercise kill that guy Pro-word, the Navy admitted that was stupid and changed that process after this incident.

There is no-way they could have won a Courts Martial. Higher ups screwed the pooch many times before the O-2 pulled the trigger, and why was a O-2 on his 1st deployment by himself; why wasn't he flying as someone's Wingman?


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 19, 2012)

Having no familiarity with air asset SOP's (but plenty with how to render safe a Martin-Baker), I can understand how this situation built up and came to pass after reading your post, SOWT. The article I first read stated that the pilot was aware that he was only supposed to simulate missile firing, and I based my opinion accordingly. 

I am still flummoxed about how he was able to stay in after that colossal fuck-up, but it's good to see what led up to this incident.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 19, 2012)

racing_kitty said:


> Having no familiarity with air asset SOP's (but plenty with how to render safe a Martin-Baker), I can understand how this situation built up and came to pass after reading your post, SOWT. The article I first read stated that the pilot was aware that he was only supposed to simulate missile firing, and I based my opinion accordingly.
> 
> I am still flummoxed about how he was able to stay in after that colossal fuck-up, but it's good to see what led up to this incident.


They shoved him into Personnel, and he was a "SuperStar" helping the Tomcat Community, I think he bounced back pretty fast and that is why they let him move into the Reserve Intel Community.


----------



## Pathfinder84 (Feb 21, 2012)

I can only interject two words into the conversation...John McCain.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 22, 2012)

Pathfinder84 said:


> I can only interject two words into the conversation...John McCain.


Agree, he graduated way low, but still ended up flying.

this guy may not be as big a douche as McCain.


----------



## Salt USMC (Feb 22, 2012)

Good info SOWT, thanks


----------



## Salt USMC (Jan 6, 2013)

I know this is quite an old thread, but here's an update!

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...at-promotion-for-navy-officer-who-sho/?page=1


> A Senate committee has refused to approve a promotion to admiral for a Navy officer who, as a young fighter pilot during a training mission, deliberately shot down an Air Force plane whose flier has suffered a life of pain from his forced ejection.
> The Senate Armed Service Committee took no confirmation vote on the nomination of Capt. Timothy W. Dorsey as the 112th Congress ended.
> Because the Senate did not act, the nomination goes back to the White House. The Navy has the option of trying to resubmit his nomination during the 113th Congress, which convened Thursday.
> The Washington Times first reported in February that President Obama had submitted Capt. Dorsey to the Senate despite the officer’s misdeed as an F-14 Tomcat pilot 25 years ago during an exercise over the Mediterranean Sea.


----------



## manas (Jan 6, 2013)

What baffles me is these two snips.



> “The September 22, 1987, destruction of USAF RF-4C was not the result of an accident, but the consequence of a deliberate act,” the investigator wrote. “His subsequent reaction [to the radio command] demonstrated an absolute disregard of the known facts and circumstances.”





> "Fished out of the water and taken to the Saratoga, Col. Ross waited for an apology from Lt. Dorsey. It did not come until last year, when the former Air Force pilot received a note from Capt. Dorsey as his nomination was pending in the Senate Armed Services Committee."


 
That really shows a lot about his character.


----------



## Rabid Badger (Jan 7, 2013)

manas said:


> That really shows a lot about his character.


 
A persons "character" has never really been the deciding factor in many of this administrations nominations or appointments. Remember the "Czars"?

If the MSM doesn't conduct "due diligence", then why should the POTUS feel the need, he hasn't yet.


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 7, 2013)

manas said:


> What baffles me is these two snips.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Depends on what the note said.
It may have included an apology/explanation for the delay.
Most Flag/GO's have no good character traits anyway.


----------



## pardus (Jan 7, 2013)

A good decision by the Senate IMO. This guy is a fuck up who never should have gotten this far, his commanders at the time should have been held accountable too (maybe they were, I doubt it though).
Apart from a possible character problem with this guy as a reason to not promote him, I think you have to look at they way his subordinates will view him. I know I'd be thinking "Coming from a guy who shot down one our own planes".


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 7, 2013)

I'm tired of the intel community being a consolation prize for wannabes, has-beens, never-weres, and screwups.  "Shot down one of ours?  No problem!  Here's your map marker and order of battle chart.  Son, you're now an intel officer."


----------



## 21C (Jan 7, 2013)

Good to see that the senate put the block on this squeezer.

Although, the saying "Shit floats to the top" springs to mind.


----------



## policemedic (Jan 7, 2013)

There really isn't a valid reason this guy isn't still in a military prison. Ditto for anyone that interfered in the process.

I agree this guy's CO should have been held accountable as well, but when the guy says he meant to fire a live missile--_twice!_--at what he knew to be a US plane that is sufficient proof that he is simply too dumb to draw breath.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 7, 2013)

That's what I don't get.  When I first heard this story, I thought, "well, shit happens sometimes, maybe he thought that the other aircraft was a legit threat to the carrier."  But when you follow one of your own aircraft FROM the refueler, back into play, and then you attempt to fire two missiles at it... wtf.  Maybe he forgot he was carrying live missiles.  Whatever.  Should not have been allowed to continue in the service as a commissioned officer.  I've seen people get worse for less.


----------



## RetPara (Jan 15, 2013)

SOWT brings up some valid points of mitigation.  During the Cold War MIG CAP was serious as hell.  Many have read some of the submarine brinkmanship; well for the surface Navy (I can't fucking believe I'm defending the fucking Navy) it was just as much.  The Russian were constantly pushing the envelope trying to get close to our carriers via sub-surface, surface, and air.  The same thing went on along the inner German and Czech border.  The next year one of my Bde's QF birds got locked on, a Cobra gunner got retina burns from a Hind targeting laser.   Then the fun times when four or five Warsaw Pact fighters would cut in full afterburner and head straight towards the border prompting a major CAP scramble and blood pressure issues..... 

A LTJG is not an Ensign.  JG should have some smarts.  Most squadrons will pair more senior ranking RIO's with junior ranking pilots and senior pilots with junior RIOs.  What was the RIO saying during the whole encounter?

Mara - you'll have to ask your Dad about this since your too young to have remembered "The Kitty Wilder Episode".   (THE reason WHY no MI officer went through the Q course till 1989....  The guy that did was friend.)


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 15, 2013)

I'm very familiar with the Kitty Wilder story.  But she never committed a live-fire blue-on-blue


----------



## CDG (Jan 16, 2013)

What's the "Kitty Wilder Story"?  I ran a Google search, but couldn't find anything.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 16, 2013)

Sorry- "Katie" not "Kittie"

http://www.armyparatrooper.org/drop...only-female-ever-to-earn-the-Green-Beret-quot


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 16, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> I'm very familiar with the Kitty Wilder story. But she never committed a live-fire blue-on-blue


Unless you count Senior Officer's who were forced to retire.


----------

