# Army Moves Toward Kinder Basic Training Start



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 19, 2020)

Okay, everybody get your “back in my day” jokes out of your system (it took me a minute)...thoughts?

If I read the intent of this correctly, the purpose is to start the platoons off as a team....and ‘then’ kick their asses for 12 weeks. (Or whatever Army Basic is)

No More Drill Sergeant 'Shark Attack': Army Moves Toward Kinder Basic Training Start


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## digrar (Sep 19, 2020)

I always thought it was nonsense. We get similar results without it.


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## Kaldak (Sep 19, 2020)

I spent two weeks on Sand Hill after OCS while waiting for my airborne date. The "shark attack" was a joke and lasted maybe 45min.

I think this is a huge improvement.


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## compforce (Sep 19, 2020)

Screw it, let's just send them to the range for familiarization, teach them to wear a PT belt and a 2 day course on power point then send them to theatre.

Seriously, one of you O's should see about getting Rand to commission a study on this.  It's obvious to me, but I can't find any studies or statistics to back it up or invalidate it.  What follows are my personal observations.

You wonder why there are so many cases of mental breakdowns (by percentage) in the military today?  It's because Infantry Basic Training was meant to instill mental and physical toughness on the recruits.  As Basic has gotten kindler gentler the mental toughness aspect has been lost.  Then a recruit becomes a soldier, gets sent into combat and hit with the reality and ugliness of war.  

I'm not saying that it's the cause of all PTSD, there are those that were exposed repeatedly to very bad situations and would have been "shell shocked" anyhow.  All of the people that legitimately have PTSD, are suicidal or have other mental issues caused by their service have my complete support.  If there is something, anything, that I can do to help, I'm here.

  I'm certainly not saying it is the Soldiers' faults.  It's the institutions' failure to properly prepare soldiers for the stress and hardships of combat.  That preparation starts in Basic Training.  Every time we cut back on the training that instills toughness and "Warrior Mentality" we increase the numbers that are going to have long term problems dealing with their demons.


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## Locksteady (Sep 19, 2020)

CSM Fortenberry from the article said:
			
		

> "Drill sergeants were charged with the [evaluating] trainees' ability to handle stress, singling out the perceived undesirables by enveloping them in a manner that emulated a shark attack," he continued. "This activity, however, does not instill the spirit of the infantry; it betrays the innate trust between teammates and, worse, betrays the crucial bond of trust with our leaders."


It's like he's speaking through the lens of a jilted recruit who came in with the wrong expectations and never dropped them.  

I couldn't disagree with him more.


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## Kaldak (Sep 19, 2020)

Locksteady said:


> It's like he's speaking through the lens of a jilted recruit who came in with the wrong expectations and never dropped them.
> 
> I couldn't disagree with him more.



Have you gone through BCT? If not, how can you make this statement?


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## Cookie_ (Sep 19, 2020)

I'm all about it; shark attack really didn't do anything other than smoke you for a bit, so it seems worthless in retrospect.

This reads a lot more like a basic indoc platoon that every unit I've ever been to has; I like it on the operational side, so I'm fine with it on the tradoc side.

I think a lot of our problems @compforce highlights don't come from basic, but our recruitment standards and then FORSCOM training culture.

A big part of dealing with combat/stressors in general is resilency; we develop resilency by being allowed to fail and keep trying.

Now how many leaders do you know who belittle/demean their subordinates for the smallest mistake? How is that soldier supposed to develop the mental fortitude to come back better if everytime he fucks in training he gets shat on without corrective actions?

I really suggest everyone check out Sebastian Junger's book tribe. He delves into why some cultures seem more resilient then others, and it suggests that relying on others (like this new training does) helps to develop that sense of "I will keep going for the good of the group". 
How many guys on here have pushed themselves pyshically/mentally/emotionally because they didn't want to let their team down? Same concept.


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## Cookie_ (Sep 19, 2020)

Oh, and suicides seem to not be correlated with combat. I can say (anecdotal of course) that every suicide I've dealt with has been a first term, never deployed soldier.

Historical data suggests Army suicides not directly linked to combat


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## LimaPanther (Sep 19, 2020)

Any officers here that went through the OCS "Blue Monday"? I got to experience it twice. Plus the tac officers were in your face all the time.


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## Locksteady (Sep 19, 2020)

Kaldak said:


> Have you gone through BCT? If not, how can you make this statement?


Certainly take it with as little credence as warranted from someone who didn't.


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## LimaPanther (Sep 19, 2020)

Locksteady said:


> Certainly take it with as little credence as warranted from someone who didn't.



I take it you know nothing about Kalda's background to make that comment. Since you are unverified you need to be careful on what you say.


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## Locksteady (Sep 19, 2020)

LimaPanther said:


> I take it you know nothing about Kalda's background to make that comment. Since you are unverified you need to be careful on what you say.


The comment was self-referential to answer his question.  I'm not at all positioned to speak to his background.


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 19, 2020)

...and moving on.


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## Devildoc (Sep 19, 2020)

We didn't have it in boot; not to say we didn't get smoked when we deserved it, because we did.  Yeah, it was Navy and all, but still.

I recall during an exchange with the Royal Marines we saw some of their boot training, and it was positively civil.  I don't think the instructors yelled, at all, much less anything like that.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Sep 19, 2020)

I think this is a bad idea on so many levels.

This ranks up there with changing the motto to "Army of One!" and the Black Beret debacle!


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## digrar (Sep 19, 2020)

Devildoc said:


> I don't think the instructors yelled, at all, much less anything like that.



Nothing worse than not meeting the expectations or disappointing a professional that you admire.


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 19, 2020)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> This ranks up there with changing the motto to "Army of One!" and the Black Beret debacle!


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## ThunderHorse (Sep 19, 2020)

compforce said:


> Screw it, let's just send them to the range for familiarization, teach them to wear a PT belt and a 2 day course on power point then send them to theatre.
> 
> Seriously, one of you O's should see about getting Rand to commission a study on this.  It's obvious to me, but I can't find any studies or statistics to back it up or invalidate it.  What follows are my personal observations.
> 
> ...



VMI used to be highly adversarial.  It no longer is, the "Old Corps" assholes used to talk about how hard it was...what they don't tell you is in the 60s the rats were allowed to get out of the "ratline" and go up town and be normal.  You can always be more professional and have just enough of the adversarial atmosphere to get the mental part of the equation.  

What they can and should do is making Basic physically tougher and don't let guys who can't pass a PT test into FORSCOM.  The amount of Soldiers coming out of Benning that we had that hadn't at least gotten 60 on all three events of the APFT that showed up to Knox and Bliss when I was there was way too much.  And it's not like we were on a major War Footing.  Units were deploying at 60% strength because of Force Caps.


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## Hungry_Dog (Sep 23, 2020)

Stress inoculation is important; I have fond memories of basic. Sucks that new folk are gonna miss out on that.

What it sounds like is a highly catered, artificial, theme park experience (on rails). 

The service isn't for everyone imo but I understand needs to get new blood in and the stock to draw upon changes every year.


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## DasBoot (Sep 23, 2020)

The hardest selections the Army offers are not geared around yelling or screaming. RASP has moved towards less yelling, more “indifference” to candidates. I’ve never responded to shouting- it’s annoying, and when it’s coming from someone with a room temperature IQ, it becomes even more annoying.

Moving from bullshit, fake stressors towards actual physical and team oriented events is a good move. Hearing a DS or whatever cadre you are dealing with say “Candidate, how long does your squad need to move these sandbags?”

Followed by a time hack that is 1/2 what you asked for is way more stressful and makes your mind start working. Then trying to corral a bunch of strangers who are already out of their element, with the risk of further physical training hanging over their heads- that’s enough stress.

Sounds like a far better introduction to battlefield problem solving than a never deployed E6 telling you you’re a piece of shit and someone else is banging your girlfriend...


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## Cookie_ (Oct 4, 2020)

Here's a good write up of the new start to basic. Gotta say, I'm actually liking this.





__ https://www.facebook.com/permalink.php?story_fbid=3268736009861165&id=162761690458628


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## MikeDelta (Oct 4, 2020)

Well, people have come to expect the shark attack before they ship. So, perhaps their is a better, or at least substitute method to quickly weed out the sick, lame and lazy. If it works I’m for it. But, I fear it’s like the whole ‘can’t smoke privates‘ initiative that doesn’t allow for more than 20 minutes or corrective Pat and no more than 10 reps per exercise. Where I do understand the value of recovery, it’s the lack of mental perseverance gained from shares and individual hardship that is perhaps lost.


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## Cookie_ (Oct 4, 2020)

MikeDelta said:


> Well, people have come to expect the shark attack before they ship. So, perhaps their is a better, or at least substitute method to quickly weed out the sick, lame and lazy. If it works I’m for it. But, I fear it’s like the whole ‘can’t smoke privates‘ initiative that doesn’t allow for more than 20 minutes or corrective Pat and no more than 10 reps per exercise. Where I do understand the value of recovery, it’s the lack of mental perseverance gained from shares and individual hardship that is perhaps lost.


I was still active when that whole thing happened(which they since gotten rid of recently.)

The intent was that for minor things you'd smoke a soldier for (being late, missing an inspectable item) you'd instead do the limited physical punishment, then actual corrective training to correct the issue.



IE check in with me at staff duty at 0700, 1200, and 1700 on your weekend, or you will carry this  5# Rock named "Blue" for the next week because you forgot your Blue Book.

Issues with the transition came about because, quite frankly, a lot of NCOs couldn't lead a puppy to bowl of food. They knew nothing other than "scream and smoke you until you fix it" which doesn't do anything for most soldiers other than make them resent their leadership.

Trust me, most kids would get their shit straight better doing one of those "none-smoking" tasks that took up their time than they would getting dropped for a hour.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 4, 2020)

You can make basic just as mentally tough by increasing the physical events, obstacle course, group events, just PT, rifle runs etc etc.


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## AWP (Oct 4, 2020)

Army: The only way to modify a soldier's behavior is through physical punishment.

SERE School:


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 4, 2020)

AWP said:


> Army: The only way to modify a soldier's behavior is through physical punishment.
> 
> SERE School:
> View attachment 36095


Well we got rid of detention centers on all posts...


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