# ATF Proposes Rules on "Stabilizing Braces"



## Dame (Dec 21, 2020)

The way I read this (everyone correct me if wrong) the ATF is trying to say that an attached "stabilizing brace" attached to your weapon may constitute a weapon has been “designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder.” But they are asking for comments on this so here is your chance.

From the NSSF:

*NSSF*®* is Monitoring the Recent ATF Proposed, “Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with ‘Stabilizing Braces’” and Needs Your Help*

_ATF is soliciting public comment on this rule through January 4_

We need your input to make sure our comment letter reflects the questions, concerns and voice of the firearm and ammunition industry. The rule includes what ATF calls, “the objective factors it considers when evaluating firearms with an attached stabilizing brace to determine whether they are considered firearms under the National Firearms Act (“NFA”) and/or the Gun Control Act (“GCA”).”  The notice also previews “ATF's and the Department of Justice's plan to subsequently implement a separate process for current possessors of stabilizer-equipped firearms to choose to register such firearms in compliance with the NFA, including an expedited application process and the retroactive exemption of such firearms from the collection of NFA taxes.”

*The proposed rule is available online here.*


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## Kraut783 (Dec 21, 2020)

I’m already in the Form 1 process to SBR a braced rifle....might as well beat the rush....

Thanks to all the idiots who YouTubed themselves using the brace purely as a stock.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 21, 2020)

Fuck the ATF...that is all.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 21, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> Thanks to all the idiots who YouTubed themselves using the brace purely as a stock.


I'm sure I'm wrong, but I choose to believe that the "this is why we can't have nice things" meme was inspired by them.


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## DA SWO (Dec 21, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> I’m already in the Form 1 process to SBR a braced rifle....might as well beat the rush....
> 
> T*hanks to all the idiots who YouTubed themselves using the brace purely as a stock.*


Yep, a self inflicted wound.


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## BloodStripe (Dec 22, 2020)

Donald Trump is not a friend of the 2A.


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## Kraut783 (Dec 22, 2020)

*<- Pending Form 1 approval*




Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Fuck the ATF...that is all.



I disagree...the BATF is a much needed agency who I fully support in their endeavors.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 22, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> I disagree...the BATF is a much needed agency who I fully support in their endeavors.


Just for genuine clarification, are you being serious or is this a sarcastic comment?

I have no dog in this fight, but depending on which way the wind is blowing your comment could be taken either way.


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## DA SWO (Dec 22, 2020)

BloodStripe said:


> Donald Trump is not a friend of the 2A.


No, I think the acting BATFE Director is acting while Trump is distracted thinking a democratic sweep in Georgia will get her the BATFE Directors gig full-time.
Bitch.


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## digrar (Dec 22, 2020)

Reckon he's being super serious while he has that application in awaiting approval...


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## BloodStripe (Dec 22, 2020)

DA SWO said:


> No, I think the acting BATFE Director is acting while Trump is distracted thinking a democratic sweep in Georgia will get her the BATFE Directors gig full-time.
> Bitch.



Bump stocks...


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## Kraut783 (Dec 22, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Just for genuine clarification, are you being serious or is this a sarcastic comment?
> 
> I have no dog in this fight, but depending on which way the wind is blowing your comment could be taken either way.



I was being funny...notice part in bold in my post......I have a form 1 in the works with ATF =)


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 22, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> I was being funny...notice part in bold in my post......I have a form 1 in the works with ATF =)


Got it!

When I read your post in a monotone robot voice it actually makes me laugh out loud!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 22, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> *<- Pending Form 1 approval*
> 
> 
> 
> ...


The BATFE is by far, one of my most hated government agencies. I get everyone plays their game because, we all have no choice. The agency, has murdered American citizens, blackmailed,  entrapped and falsely charged citizens in the past. They can arbitrarily shut down businesses,  make citizens felons and steal property with the swipe of a pen on a agency memo.

They make up rules (laws) without any true oversight by any elected official and outside of budgetary oversight have no real counter balance to the power that has been given to them. Its goddamn disgusting, and I am sorry, anyone who willing works for them, in my personal opinion is a traitor to the constitution and their fellow citizens.

So yeah, FUCK THE BATFE...


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## policemedic (Dec 22, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> Thanks to all the idiots who YouTubed themselves using the brace purely as a stock.



THIS.

This is the problem.  Let’s not forget those idiots that flaunted the BATFE letter saying incidental, once in a while placement of the brace in the shoulder pocket did not make the weapon an SBR/SBS.  

What did they think was going to happen, particularly with a Biden/Harris administration measuring the White House for curtains?


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## Intel Nerd (Dec 22, 2020)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> The BATFE is by far, one of my most hated government agencies. I get everyone plays their game because, we all have no choice. The agency, has murdered American citizens, blackmailed,  entrapped and falsely charged citizens in the past. They can arbitrarily shut down businesses,  make citizens felons and steal property with the swipe of a pen on a agency memo.
> 
> They make up rules (laws) without any true oversight by any elected official and outside of budgetary oversight have no real counter balance to the power that has been given to them. Its goddamn disgusting, and I am sorry, anyone who willing works for them, in my personal opinion is a traitor to the constitution and their fellow citizens.
> 
> So yeah, FUCK THE BATFE...



As someone who knows Jay Dobyns, they way they handled his witness protection and their efforts to cover up and go after people speaking out on Fast & Furious, that agency shows how deep to the core it has become corrupt and in need of abolishment.


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## Muppet (Dec 23, 2020)

The ATF is a domestic terrorist organization. Change my mind....

Ruby Ridge, Waco, years of crookedness.


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## Gunz (Dec 23, 2020)




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## Brill (Dec 23, 2020)

Gunz said:


> View attachment 37656



Which of the above are fully semi-automatc?


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## Kraut783 (Dec 23, 2020)

I'm not exactly sure what this means....

"ATF is announcing the withdrawal of a notice and request for comments entitled “Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with ‘Stabilizing Braces’,” that was published on December 18, 2020."

"Upon further consultation with the Department of Justice and the Office of the Deputy Attorney General, ATF is withdrawing, pending further Department of Justice review, the notice and request for comments entitled “Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with ‘Stabilizing Braces’,” that was published on December 18, 2020. 85 FR 82516. As explained in the notice, the proposed guidance was not a regulation. The notice informed and invited comment from the industry and public on a proposed guidance prior to issuing a final guidance document. The withdrawal of the guidance does not change any law, regulation, or other legally binding requirement."

SB Criteria Withdrawal Notice 12-23-20.pdf | Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives


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## DZ (Dec 23, 2020)

Pretty sure they are rescinding the letter. 80,000 people commented when they attempted to ban Green Tip. In just a few days they had 50,000 people comment on the braces (and close to the holidays).

Though I think this isn't the last we'll see on this issue from the ATF.


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## Dame (Dec 23, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> I'm not exactly sure what this means....
> 
> "ATF is announcing the withdrawal of a notice and request for comments entitled “Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with ‘Stabilizing Braces’,” that was published on December 18, 2020."
> 
> ...


Means all you have to do is post a bone head move on SS and said bone-heads back down.  

For now.


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## Brill (Dec 23, 2020)

I bet that DOJ review will miraculously be complete just after noon on 20 Jan.


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## BloodStripe (Dec 24, 2020)

They can still interpret law without a public notice. I'm sure of the 50k comments many were along the lines of "fuck the ATF" so they'll say that the whole comment thing doesn't matter and we are going to interpret the law that pistol braces require a tax stamp.


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## DA SWO (Dec 24, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> I'm not exactly sure what this means....
> 
> "ATF is announcing the withdrawal of a notice and request for comments entitled “Objective Factors for Classifying Weapons with ‘Stabilizing Braces’,” that was published on December 18, 2020."
> 
> ...


@Gunz -hate towards the ATF.
@Kraut783 temporary withdrawal, they'll try it again.


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## Kraut783 (Dec 24, 2020)

Oh, with the new admin....I'm sure.


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## compforce (Dec 24, 2020)

90 lawmakers signed a letter slamming the ATF.  That was the reason for the withdrawal of the notice.  

90 Members of Congress Sign Letter Objecting to ATF Pistol Brace Notice – Personal Defense World


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## Grunt (Dec 24, 2020)

Any action taken by the BATFE is calculated. I can almost guarantee you that they are regrouping for another stronger shot in the not-so-distant future. I hope I'm wrong and will gladly admit it if it turns out the way, but I'm not feeling it right now....


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## Gunz (Dec 26, 2020)

DA SWO said:


> @Gunz -hate towards the ATF.
> @Kraut783 temporary withdrawal, they'll try it again.




Just funnin, bro. Got no hate for ATF.


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## Intel Nerd (Dec 26, 2020)

lindy said:


> Which of the above are fully semi-automatc?



I really can't unwatch the video of Hertling saying that. #HowToLoseCredibilityInstantly


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## Kraut783 (Dec 29, 2020)

So, submitted the Form 1 on eForms website on 12/03....I received my approval via email with a PDF of my stamp on 12/27....I was quite blown away, 24 days during a federal holiday month...unbelievable. 

If you wanna do one, this is the time.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 29, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> So, submitted the Form 1 on eForms website on 12/03....I received my approval via email with a PDF of my stamp on 12/27....I was quite blown away, 24 days during a federal holiday month...unbelievable.


I’m assuming you’re talking about a suppressor?

They just recently became legal in Minnesota, I don’t currently have a pistol that is threaded to except one, do they need to be pistol specific?

Can I get one that is specifically 9 mm and use it on my eventual 9 mm?


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## Kraut783 (Dec 29, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I’m assuming you’re talking about a suppressor?
> 
> They just recently became legal in Minnesota, I don’t currently have a pistol that is threaded to except one, do they need to be pistol specific?
> 
> Can I get one that is specifically 9 mm and use it on my eventual 9 mm?



No, Form 1 to SBR (Short Barreled rifle) a firearm.....you have to do a Form 4 for suppressors, just a different form because it's not a firearm.

Yep, you can purchase a 9mm can and decide what to use it on later.....I bought a Omega 9K which is good for 9mm and .300blk....for pistols you just have to add a piston for the suppressor...allows the semi-pistol to cycle.  You can put the can on whatever weapon you want to...it's not designated for only one firearm.

Good info here....

Silencer Frequently Asked Questions Silencer Ship


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## Kaldak (Dec 29, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> No, Form 1 to SBR (Short Barreled rifle) a firearm.....you have to do a Form 4 for suppressors, just a different form because it's not a firearm.
> 
> Yep, you can purchase a 9mm can and decide what to use it on later.....I bought a Omega 9K which is good for 9mm and .300blk....for pistols you just have to add a piston for the suppressor...allows the semi-pistol to cycle.  You can put the can on whatever weapon you want to...it's not designated for only one firearm.
> 
> ...



Do I need to form-1 my 5.56 pistol with its 7.5in barrel? Just bought it last month.

It has a standard looking stock, just not telescoping like I'd prefer. It also doesn't seem removable?


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## Kraut783 (Dec 29, 2020)

ATF states a short barreled rifle is:

An *SBR* is a rifle *with a* barrel less than 16 inches or a rifle *with a* barrel of 16 inches or longer but an overall length of fewer than 26 inches.

Right now there are AR "pistols" that have a brace instead of a stock, still perfectly legal...and you are still able to "occasionally" shoulder it.

If you have an AR pistol with a brace and want to put a regular stock on it, you would need to do a Form 1 to make it a short barreled rifle.

But you don't need to do anything to it, if you don't want to.  I wanted to put a certain stock on my gun, so went ahead and did it.


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## BloodStripe (Dec 29, 2020)

Kaldak said:


> Do I need to form-1 my 5.56 pistol with its 7.5in barrel? Just bought it last month.
> 
> It has a standard looking stock, just not telescoping like I'd prefer. It also doesn't seem removable?


How did you buy it? 

Not a lawyer and not overly familiar Wisconsin law, but the short answer is no.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 29, 2020)

I am often in awe of the amount of things I learn on this forum by accident versus other places by design.


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## Kaldak (Dec 29, 2020)

BloodStripe said:


> How did you buy it?
> 
> Not a lawyer and not overly familiar Wisconsin law, but the short answer is no.



Bought it as a pistol. Even got charged an extra 10$ pistol xfer fee by Cabelas.


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## BloodStripe (Dec 29, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I’m assuming you’re talking about a suppressor?
> 
> They just recently became legal in Minnesota, I don’t currently have a pistol that is threaded to except one, do they need to be pistol specific?
> 
> Can I get one that is specifically 9 mm and use it on my eventual 9 mm?



Form 1 is if you're building your own AR. Form 4 is if you're buying a prebuilt gun.


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## BloodStripe (Dec 29, 2020)

Kaldak said:


> Bought it as a pistol. Even got charged an extra 10$ pistol xfer fee by Cabelas.



And it came with the "brace"?


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## Kraut783 (Dec 29, 2020)

BloodStripe said:


> Form 1 is if you're building your own AR. Form 4 is if you're buying a prebuilt gun.



Form 4 is also for suppressors....if you make a SBR or SBS, it considered manufacturing a firearm and you use a Form 1.


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## Kraut783 (Dec 29, 2020)

If you bought it from Cabela's I'm sure it's a AR pistol with some kind of brace....they don't sell illegal stuff.


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## BloodStripe (Dec 29, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> Form 4 is also for suppressors....if you make a SBR or SBS, it considered manufacturing a firearm and you use a Form 1.


Correct.


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## Kaldak (Dec 29, 2020)

I ordered it off gunbroker, and used Cabelas as the FFL. There is a stock like any AR platform. It just doesn't appear removable at all...that would be the brace? I'll get a photo off to you later tonight or tomorrow.


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## Kraut783 (Dec 29, 2020)

There is a ton of braces out there....I'm sure your fine. Cabelas isn't going to be the FFL on an illegal item.



Just to show a few


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## Kaldak (Dec 29, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> There is a ton of braces out there....I'm sure your fine. Cabelas isn't going to be the FFL on an illegal item.
> 
> View attachment 37794
> 
> Just to show a few



It's the SOB one.


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## JedisonsDad (Dec 29, 2020)

Kaldak said:


> It's the SOB one.


You’re fine then. Just don’t put a vertical foregrip on it, otherwise you are “manufacturing an SBR” because that means the pistol is intended to be held with two hands. Which we all know, only criminals hold pistols with two hands.


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## Kraut783 (Dec 30, 2020)

Kaldak said:


> It's the SOB one.



Yep, legal AR pistol with brace...good to go!


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