# Be a Marine Spy?



## Brill (Oct 12, 2013)

Saw this today:

(Agree with the comments under the article re: CI/HUMINT collectors.)

http://blogs.militarytimes.com/battle-rattle/2013/10/07/behind-the-cover-cracking-into-intel/


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## Salt USMC (Oct 13, 2013)

That cover caused a million facepalms


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## goon175 (Oct 14, 2013)

I like how they try to attract people to the MOS by talking about relaxed grooming standards and not wearing a uniform... you know.. because the person that lat moves to that MOS for those reasons  are exactly the type of mature Marines they are looking for....


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## Brill (Oct 14, 2013)

goon175 said:


> I like how they try to attract people to the MOS by talking about relaxed grooming standards and not wearing a uniform... you know.. because the person that lat moves to that MOS for those reasons  are exactly the type of mature Marines they are looking for....



Uh...670-1 wasn't modified for the Regiment? :-"


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## goon175 (Oct 14, 2013)

lindy said:


> Uh...670-1 wasn't modified for the Regiment? :-"



Regiment certainly does utilize relaxed grooming when needed, but we don't advertise it and use it as an incentive to get people to try out.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 14, 2013)

> The Corps is looking for mature Marines who are comfortable interacting with strangers, without a lot of input from leadership, to consider making the shift to intel.



...and to do that, you're targeting E3s?  :-/



> “If you still want to be a Marine but hang your uniform up for a couple of years, wear a suit and grow your hair long, this career field will offer you an opportunity to do that,” Moyer said.



I think if I were in charge of Marine Corps intel, there'd be an O6 on the top of my "list of people to choke" chart.  Those are the best reasons to reclass to intel and try out for what is arguably the most complex and perilous intelligence discipline?  That's like saying "join SF!  Because you can... erm... because you can put your hands in your pockets!!"


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## Salt USMC (Oct 14, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> ...and to do that, you're targeting E3s?  :-/



This is pure speculation on my part, but I believe that the relatively low rank restriction is in place so that guys in slow-promoting MOS fields (such as infantry, where it is not uncommon to EAS as an E-3 because of very high score requirements) have a chance.  I will tell you that the board will not even consider anyone who is not close to their reenlistment window, so that prevents really young guys from trying out.  It's absolutely a second-term MOS.

 <----I can't get rid of this little smiley for some reason.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 14, 2013)

USMC is pretty tight on uniform and appearance, I can see Marines wanting to have a career, bit wanting a change, lack of dress right dress, etc.

Also, E3's in the USMC are nothing like E3's in any other branch. Although I am sure the USMC has there shit bag and immature LCpl's, everyone of them I've met, was a shitload more professional than many of the NCO's I've met in the Army.

I met a LCpl in Anbar Iraq, he was a Squad Leader, leading a convoy from CKV to TQ...I was blown away that an E3 would have that much responsibility.


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## Teufel (Oct 14, 2013)

JAB said:


> USMC is pretty tight on uniform and appearance, I can see Marines wanting to have a career, bit wanting a change, lack of dress right dress, etc.
> 
> Also, E3's in the USMC are nothing like E3's in any other branch. Although I am sure the USMC has there shit bag and immature LCpl's, everyone of them I've met, was a shitload more professional than many of the NCO's I've met in the Army.
> 
> I met a LCpl in Anbar Iraq, he was a Squad Leader, leading a convoy from CKV to TQ...I was blown away that an E3 would have that much responsibility.



When I was a rifle platoon commander in 2004 all of my squad leaders with E3s.  It was pretty normal.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 14, 2013)

That's what I have heard from many current and former AD Marines. Still blows my mind, we don't trust an E3 to be in charge of much more than a police call, and even then we normally have an E4 to supervise.

I never understood why the Army has 4 enlisted ranks dedicated to not being in charge of anything, a bunch of over paid privates. 

Not that I think an E3 should be a SL, TL sure but SL, is a bit much IMO. Either way, its working for you guys, apparently.


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## goon175 (Oct 14, 2013)

No offense, but I think using E3's as SL's is getting away with highway robbery on the USMC's part.


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## Teufel (Oct 15, 2013)

goon175 said:


> No offense, but I think using E3's as SL's is getting away with highway robbery on the USMC's part.



When I was a 2Lt, it was uncommon for a Marine to make E4 on his first enlistment.  It took 6 years or more to make E5.  Most of my E3 squad leaders were on their 2nd or 3d combat deployment.  Keep in mind that I have served 14 months as a Battalion operations officer for a Reconnaissance battalion as an 03 Captain with over 11 year of military service.  Promotions are slow all over unfortunately.  It comes with being a smaller service.  Almost all of my Navy peers from the Naval Academy were promoted awhile ago.


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## goon175 (Oct 15, 2013)

Teufel said:


> When I was a 2Lt, it was uncommon for a Marine to make E4 on his first enlistment.  It took 6 years or more to make E5.  Most of my E3 squad leaders were on their 2nd or 3d combat deployment.  Keep in mind that I have served 14 months as a Battalion operations officer for a Reconnaissance battalion as an 03 Captain with over 11 year of military service.  Promotions are slow all over unfortunately.  It comes with being a smaller service.  Almost all of my Navy peers from the Naval Academy were promoted awhile ago.



I believe you, trust me. I'll never forget the look on our GFC's face (a major) when we did a battlefield handover to a Marine platoon in Iraq. He asked where the PSG or PL was, and an E-4 came up to talk to him. He said "No, I need the guy that's in charge" and the young Marine said "Yeah, that's me Sir". 

Regardless, I think it's taking advantage of guys. If you have that level of responsibility, you should be fairly compensated for it. Also, it screws those guys over when they get out and are competing for jobs with other guys who out rank them but had less responsibility in the service. I'm not saying all the branches need to have the same rate of promotion, and I would even agree with the argument that the Army promotes a bit too fast in some cases, but if a position is coded for an NCO, than that branch has an obligation to man that position accordingly.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 15, 2013)

Yeah I agree with goon on that one, if the slot calls for X rank, the person filling the slot should be +/- 1 to that rank, and if held for 90 days or more, should be promoted and paid correctly. 

I had a squad as an E4 and like anyone else filled PSG when tasked as Jr, but I couldn't imagine a E4 running a platoon for a deployment.  Holy shit...


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## 8654Maine (Oct 15, 2013)

goon175 said:


> I believe you, trust me. I'll never forget the look on our GFC's face (a major) when we did a battlefield handover to a Marine platoon in Iraq. He asked where the PSG or PL was, and an E-4 came up to talk to him. He said "No, I need the guy that's in charge" and the young Marine said "Yeah, that's me Sir".
> 
> Regardless, I think it's taking advantage of guys. If you have that level of responsibility, you should be fairly compensated for it. Also, it screws those guys over when they get out and are competing for jobs with other guys who out rank them but had less responsibility in the service. I'm not saying all the branches need to have the same rate of promotion, and I would even agree with the argument that the Army promotes a bit too fast in some cases, but if a position is coded for an NCO, than that branch has an obligation to man that position accordingly.



What Teufel said is correct.  An E-4 in the Marines is a Cpl.  This is an NCO rank in the Corps (last I checked).
However, I agree that the Corps does not like to promote.
In my experience, this has been one of the reasons why my buds left to enter another service.  We'd compare time in service and current job and our colleagues would be a pay grade above.


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## Teufel (Oct 15, 2013)

goon175 said:


> I believe you, trust me. I'll never forget the look on our GFC's face (a major) when we did a battlefield handover to a Marine platoon in Iraq. He asked where the PSG or PL was, and an E-4 came up to talk to him. He said "No, I need the guy that's in charge" and the young Marine said "Yeah, that's me Sir".
> 
> Regardless, I think it's taking advantage of guys. If you have that level of responsibility, you should be fairly compensated for it. Also, it screws those guys over when they get out and are competing for jobs with other guys who out rank them but had less responsibility in the service. I'm not saying all the branches need to have the same rate of promotion, and I would even agree with the argument that the Army promotes a bit too fast in some cases, but if a position is coded for an NCO, than that branch has an obligation to man that position accordingly.



Oh I 100% agree with you.  A squad leader is supposed to be a sergeant.  We can't promote guys internally though.  I don't know if the Army can.  We also fire guys who can't hack it too.  I had a sergeant who had recently changed his MOS from aviation mechanic to infantry, he lasted three combat patrols before he was replaced by a corporal.  I have seen all of my peers from Westpoint and Annapolis promote to 04 long before I will.  I have been selected for Major but it usually takes us 1-2 years to actually pin on the rank.  So as a result the majority of the battalion operations officers in the 1st Marine Division, to include myself, are still Captains.  It's frustrating so I can imagine how the young LCpl feels.  It has to do with how many personnel at any given rank can exist at any given time.  My promotion is delayed because a lot of terminal Majors don't want to retire.  So they are clogging up the machine.  You guys can weather that to some degree because you have such a large organization.  As our numbers fall from 202,000 to 176,000 to possible 150,000 we will see promotions get even slower.  It used to take five to seven years for a Marine to get promoted to Sergeant and 8 to 10 years for Staff Sergeant.  We are going back to those days.


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## goon175 (Oct 15, 2013)

Teufel said:


> Oh I 100% agree with you.  A squad leader is supposed to be a sergeant.  We can't promote guys internally though.  I don't know if the Army can.  We also fire guys who can't hack it too.  I had a sergeant who had recently changed his MOS from aviation mechanic to infantry, he lasted three combat patrols before he was replaced by a corporal.  I have seen all of my peers from Westpoint and Annapolis promote to 04 long before I will.  I have been selected for Major but it usually takes us 1-2 years to actually pin on the rank.  So as a result the majority of the battalion operations officers in the 1st Marine Division, to include myself, are still Captains.  It's frustrating so I can imagine how the young LCpl feels.  It has to do with how many personnel at any given rank can exist at any given time.  My promotion is delayed because a lot of terminal Majors don't want to retire.  So they are clogging up the machine.  You guys can weather that to some degree because you have such a large organization.  As our numbers fall from 202,000 to 176,000 to possible 150,000 we will see promotions get even slower.  It used to take five to seven years for a Marine to get promoted to Sergeant and 8 to 10 years for Staff Sergeant.  We are going back to those days.



Yeah I don't doubt that it is a problem at branch/DoD level, I'm sure guys at your level want nothing more than to give their guys the credit and pay they deserve. For the Army, we can make a Sergeant or SSG promotable at the battalion level, but then it is on big army to release points every month and you either make it or you don't which decides if you will pin on the following month. Some guys in certain MOS's will sit in a promotable status for literally years. As far as moving a guy from E-2 to E-3 or E-3 to E-4, that can be done at the company level with the stroke of a pen ( or I guess the stroke of a key with a CAC card these days...).


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 15, 2013)

E1-3 is company, E4-6 is Btn and E7-9 is DA.

The Army NG promotes by slot E5 and up, and that is why you can see an E4 stuck for decades. A lot of broke dicks and sand baggers hold a rank (I.e. slot) even though they don't fill the duties of the slot or have been in the position for decades. This really screws NG soldiers when it comes to advancement.

A up or out system would work, but that would drop retention like crazy as well.


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## 0699 (Oct 15, 2013)

JAB said:


> That's what I have heard from many current and former AD Marines. Still blows my mind, we don't trust an E3 to be in charge of much more than a police call, and even then we normally have an E4 to supervise.
> 
> I never understood why the Army has 4 enlisted ranks dedicated to not being in charge of anything, a bunch of over paid privates.
> 
> Not that I think an E3 should be a SL, TL sure but SL, is a bit much IMO. Either way, its working for you guys, apparently.


 
Desert Storm, I was a corporal running a radio retrans site between Khafji and Saffaniyah (sp?).  Right next door was an Army radio retrans team doing the same job, run by a SSG.


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## Chopstick (Oct 15, 2013)

@Teufel's post regarding slow promotions made me think of this:


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## 0699 (Oct 15, 2013)

Chopstick said:


> @Teufel's post regarding slow promotions made me think of this:


 
This is why my retirement ceremony was a sit down one, with cake and punch afterwards, and beer/whiskey at my house that night...


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## Chopstick (Oct 15, 2013)

0699 said:


> This is why my retirement ceremony was a sit down one, with cake and punch afterwards, and beer/whiskey at my house that night...


Were there little paper umbrellas for the drinks?


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## x SF med (Oct 16, 2013)

Chopstick said:


> Were there little paper umbrellas for the drinks?


 
His wife brought in a male stripper too...  dressed like a Marine.:wall:


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## Scubadew (Oct 18, 2013)

I got so into reading the comments and absorbing the information that when I realized the title of the thread was 'Be a Marine Spy?' I laughed out loud. One thing about this site is its members and their ability to make a thread more valuable by *derailing* it. I could probably count on one hand the number of threads I have finished reading without going back to see what it was even about. :-/


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## Brill (Oct 18, 2013)

Scubadew said:


> I got so into reading the comments and absorbing the information that when I realized the title of the thread was 'Be a Marine Spy?' I laughed out loud. One thing about this site is its members and their ability to make a thread more valuable by *derailing* it. I could probably count on one hand the number of threads I have finished reading without going back to see what it was even about. :-/



Clearly you don't have much experience being around HUMINTers or ASO guys.  Par for the course.


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 18, 2013)

Can I have a glass of water now?


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## x SF med (Oct 21, 2013)

The Hate Ape said:


> Can I have a glass of water now?


 
No, you haven't earned it yet...  now shush.:wall::-"


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## WookWrangler (Oct 22, 2013)

As a Marine in the field in question and screener for potential candidates I say it will never happen. We are screened and I personally screen individuals for maturity and other traits that are beneficial to the community. Cowboys, James Bond, and Lemmings need not apply.


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## WookWrangler (Oct 22, 2013)

My two cents on rank vs. maturity or leadership. In my experience maturity and rank are not directly related. As for leadership, with some bias I would say that Marine non-NCO's and junior NCO's tend to display a higher general competency and level of confidence in their leadership abilities. This of course must be part of the alpha dog mentality and the early structure of our basic training. I would say this also continues to the SNCO levels. After attending many joint schools/academies and working in several joint staffs, Marines display inherent leadership amongst their peers. Problem is sometimes we are the loudest ones in the room and anyone working in or near SOF knows this isn't always for the better.


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## marine0231 (Oct 23, 2013)

@WookWrangler - I agree with your first post about who should not apply. I am a Reserve 0231 Sgt and have deployed a few times  and have been around the 0211 community on multiple occasions. The lowest rank I have seen get into the 0211 community was a friend of mine that was a Cpl who was originally a 0231 and then went on to be honor grad at Dam Neck.  I have heard people say that they want to go 0211 because it has cool schools. Honestly that aggravates me to no end. The reason is yea schools are fun and going to cool ones are great but the thought of the mission must come first and not be placed second. I have had people come to me and ask how to get into the 0211 field and I will happily give them the email address and phone number of the people they need to call or get into contact with about getting information about the lat move process, since I am not a 0211. I just hate when they say the reason they want to go that route is because they want to go to "Jump School". But I will usually tell them to contact the person I told them about and find out more information since there is more to the job then going to schools.


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## Demon Dog (Dec 3, 2015)

Im a Cpl and am nearly finished with the screening process for 0211. I just have the board left but its the biggest part of it IMO. I have been trying to prepare for it but I jut seem to have a hard time figuring out the best method to study MCWP's and FM's besides just flat out reading them.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 3, 2015)

Demon Dog said:


> Im a Cpl and am nearly finished with the screening process for 0211. I just have the board left but its the biggest part of it IMO. I have been trying to prepare for it but I jut seem to have a hard time figuring out the *best method to study MCWP's and FM's besides just flat out reading them*.



Flash cards my friend. Use index cards or download an app.  Highlight what's important and transfer them to the cards.


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## Demon Dog (Dec 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Flash cards my friend. Use index cards or download an app.  Highlight what's important and transfer them to the cards.


Yea I have written countless flash cards so far and have only made it 2/3 of the way through the first four chapters of MCWP 2-6! Even using the study questions I found on Quizlet. It is just so much information to retain and I dont want to go into the board with holes in my knowledge, if you know what Im saying.


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## devilbones (Dec 11, 2015)

CI/HUMNINT Study Guide flashcards | Quizlet


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 11, 2015)

devilbones said:


> CI/HUMNINT Study Guide flashcards | Quizlet



Ya gotta play the audio.


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## devilbones (Dec 12, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Ya gotta play the audio.


I didnt make them, I just found them there.


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## Pandorac (Dec 16, 2015)

Demon Dog said:


> Im a Cpl and am nearly finished with the screening process for 0211. I just have the board left but its the biggest part of it IMO. I have been trying to prepare for it but I jut seem to have a hard time figuring out the best method to study MCWP's and FM's besides just flat out reading them.


I've been through the board, as a Corporal, so I know what you're feeling. Obviously I wont help you prepare for it with specifics, but go into it with a strong understanding of why you want the MOS, relax, present your true personality, and above all: BE HONEST.


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## Demon Dog (Dec 20, 2015)

Pandorac said:


> I've been through the board, as a Corporal, so I know what you're feeling. Obviously I wont help you prepare for it with specifics, but go into it with a strong understanding of why you want the MOS, relax, present your true personality, and above all: BE HONEST.


Thanks for the advice. I did end up passing the board. It was pretty stressful but I made it.


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## busyworks (Dec 23, 2015)

Demon Dog said:


> Thanks for the advice. I did end up passing the board. It was pretty stressful but I made it.


Congrats man.


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## Gunz (Mar 3, 2016)

Belated comment on rank and responsibility in the Corps. As a L/Cpl I occasionally led combat patrols. This was in a Combined Action unit with an E5 as Actual and an E4 as Bravo. Being an autonomous small unit in constant operation in enemy contested territory, even E3s had significant responsibilities, and often led patrols  or 3-man Kill Teams...as satellite forays away from the main ambush.

Back in the States I was a weapons platoon squadleader as a Corporal. SLs were normally supposed to be E5s, but E4 SLs were not uncommon. The Marine Corps has traditionally placed significant trust in its junior NCOs. (Up until the late 1950s when the rank of Lance Corporal was adopted, Sgts had always been E4s.)


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