# SAPPER TABS ????



## MADMIKE175 (Jun 16, 2008)

I was on a flight last week and a E6 type heading for Afghanistan had a Sapper tab on, so I googled it this morning and found this article...

http://usmilitary.about.com/od/army/a/sappertab.htm

Thoughts? Has anyone been to the Sapper school?


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## moobob (Jun 16, 2008)

Just an observation: The school graduates females. :2c:

Added: Not being sexist or anything. That was just an easily researchable fact tailored for the asker of the question as a way to gauge the physical difficulty level. Academics are another animal...

The school obviously teaches good skills or the Army wouldn't have approved the new tab.

OTOH, the same logic that led to the black beret was probably applied... I've met people that rated it and did not wear it except for on class A's.

*hides under a rock*


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 16, 2008)

"Until this summer, only the Special Forces tab and the Ranger tab were authorized for wear above the unit patch on the left shoulder."

I guess the forgot about the “PRESIDENTS HUNDRED” tab!

I know a dude with the SAPPER tab, he knows his shit…


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## Rabid Badger (Jun 16, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> "Until this summer, only the Special Forces tab and the Ranger tab were authorized for wear above the unit patch on the left shoulder."
> 
> I guess they forgot about the “PRESIDENTS HUNDRED” tab!
> 
> I know a dude with the SAPPER tab, he knows his shit…



and the 'AIRBORNE' tab*....(BTW: I may have seen a few 'women' graduate that school as well)*

I've seen a few wearing the Sapper tab as far back as two years ago....They're some hard folks that deserve some recognition....IMO


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## MADMIKE175 (Jun 16, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> and the 'AIRBORNE' tab*....(BTW: I may have seen a few 'women' graduate that school as well)*
> 
> I've seen a few wearing the Sapper tab as far back as two years ago....They're some hard folks that deserve some recognition....IMO




HAHA no shit! but then everyone knows Airborne school is gay. 

Just for clarification - I meant no disrespect, was just wondering what the general consensus was/is. I don't know any at all, so I can't say either way.


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## surgicalcric (Jun 16, 2008)

MADMIKE175 said:


> ...Just for clarification - I meant no disrespect, was just wondering what the general consensus was/is. I don't know any at all, so I can't say either way.



Night and weekends off except for field problems, phones, daily PX runs...  Sounds really hard.

Actually had two guys in my medic class who were graduates who said BAC was harder than the Sapper Course...  Personally I dont know...

RB:  The AIRBORNE tab is part of a unit patch and not an identifier...  Thats why legs can wear it.  ;)  lol




Crip


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 16, 2008)

I would kill hadji with the dude I said I know... He knows what he is doing, trained with him... He taught me a thing or two... (duck tape, iv bag, det cord & MRE box)


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## AWP (Jun 16, 2008)

I read the packing list and training outline and everything looked great. And then I saw their creed. Now, maybe sappers are certified bad-asses, I don't know, but they don't win any points for creativity.

It concludes with.....

Sappers lead the way!

http://www.wood.army.mil/sapper/documents.html


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## Rabid Badger (Jun 16, 2008)

surgicalcric said:


> RB:  The AIRBORNE tab is part of a unit patch and not an identifier...  Thats why legs can wear it.  ;)  lol
> Crip



Ya...I was reading into the literal meanining of this quote:



> Until this summer, only the Special Forces tab and the Ranger tab were authorized for wear above the unit patch on the left shoulder.



;)


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## moobob (Jun 16, 2008)

Freefalling said:


> I read the packing list and training outline and everything looked great. And then I saw their creed. Now, maybe sappers are certified bad-asses, I don't know, but they don't win any points for creativity.
> 
> It concludes with.....
> 
> ...



There's also the "Best Sapper" competition.


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## Doc P (Jun 16, 2008)

nice creed...looks like they used the Ranger Creed as a template. I don't really know much about it to be an expert, but I just have one word...wanabe's!


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## AWP (Jun 16, 2008)

It may very well be a great school (I have no idea) but the sniff test says there's some envy there.


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## surgicalcric (Jun 16, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> Ya...I was reading into the literal meaning of this quote... Blah, blah, blah...



Just jerking your chain old man...dont get your tabs all ruffled...  :)

Crip


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## MADMIKE175 (Jun 16, 2008)

Someone post the creed here, I can't seem to bring it up.....


SLTW! hooooah!


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## surgicalcric (Jun 16, 2008)

Here ya go


Sapper Creed
I am a sapper. The cutting edge of my country's sword.

I will always endeavor to complete my sapper mission
regardless of available assets. My flexibility and special
training shall provide my task force with a tool to overcome
insurmountable odds.

I realize that I will be called upon for my expertise in all
aspects of mobility, counter-mobility and survivability. The
failure to effectively accomplish my mission could cost the
lives of others.

I will set the example by keeping myself physically fit and
mentally tough. I will strive to sharpen my sapper skills and
the skills of those I support.
Sappers lead the way!


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## RetPara (Jun 16, 2008)

Historically Sappers were elite troops that lead assualts.  In Normandy there was one special combat engineer brigade created just for the D-Day invasion.  Their mission was to clear the beach obstacles and mines.  Some of them actually lived long enough to try at Omaha.  

At Remagen it was combat engineers that lead the way across the only standing into Germany.

In Desert Storm it was Combat Engineers that lead the breeches into Kuwait.  

Combat Engineers have been in front since the Romans....


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## Ajax (Jun 16, 2008)

There will always be the military version of the special interest group looking for recognition for doing their job.  Even pogues have gut checks.  It's just that it takes less to check their guts than the rest of us.  I say if people need a badge to make them feel special, let them have it.  It doesn't change who we are or how we got here.  When I went through SFQC, I had a long tab sewn on the inside of my PC.  Taking a knee, wiping my brow, I would always see that tab, or rather, that tab would see me.  It was a motivator.  I may have needed that then, back when my vision of SF guy was a hard charging NCO who HALO'd in everywhere, killed everything, got laid, and then put his hands in his pockets.  Older and wiser, I know the tab doesn't make the man.  The man makes the tab.  If our support wants their 201 on their sleeve, I say let 'em.  It's just another merit badge.  Keep 'em motivated.  It can go right next to underwater basket weaving.  The downside is it gives the Marines one more thing to poke fun at.


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## 275ANGER! (Jun 16, 2008)

The only squared away cherry Officer in my Ranger School class went through the Sapper course.

I had some leg yell out "You should try out a Sapper Tab, Hooah" while I was giving my privates a PT test.  He was lucky they were doing the two mile run because I would have let them off the leash and balled him up.


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## Paddlefoot (Jun 16, 2008)

Ajax said:


> Even pogues have gut checks.



Like trying to decide whether to go with that second ice cream sandwich at the chow hall.

LOL


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## Swill (Jun 16, 2008)

The school gradutes females who meet the standard. I know females who went and didn't gradute and I know a balls-to-the-wall physical studboy (Ranger tabbed prior to going to Sapper) who didn't either. <Shrug> WFC?

I wouldn't care how "hard" it is and who else they let in. If attending a course makes me better at my job, then I want to go.


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## MADMIKE175 (Jun 16, 2008)

Like I said earlier, no disrespect intended...I mean shit...

Everyone already knows that the tabs don't mean shit! It's the scroll that counts!!!!

Sometimes it's just too easy! LMAO


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## Snowbird (Jun 16, 2008)

Females go to SERE-C. . .

Females go to AIRBORNE

Females go to JUMPMASTER

Apparently at some time females went through GREEN PLATOON:confused:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the reason females didn't go through Ranger School was because it is a combat leadership course, and females aren't allowed in combat.  The same reason for SF.  

That said, I'm not a dumbass and know that generally men are more physically able than women, and so adding them to any school will lower the standard and the level of physical difficulty.  

I do know that there was a female who went through GP not too long ago (6 months-1year, maybe?), and all females are assigned to Regiment HQ, as they can't be assigned to a battallion because of the combat thing.  However, this female was knocked out - several times - on clinch day during the combatives portion of the course.  She still finished the class and the course - good for her.  I also know that I would be frigging pissed if I was stuck on a log with her during log PT.

I'm not combat arms.  I have no idea what that world is like, and I would never claim to.  If the Sapper tab is a thing for combat engineers, what are they doing sending females to the course?  I'm not saying females aren't capable, I'm just confused on the point of the school.  Apparently it's an advanced engineering course, no?  I've never had the opportunity to converse with a Sapper. . .


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## Snowbird (Jun 16, 2008)

Ajax said:


> If our support wants their 201 on their sleeve, I say let 'em.



LOL we were just talking about this the other day.  I have a guy who constantly brings up how "they should have something [on your uniform] for SERE-C".  I asked him "How many guys around here do you see wearing their Hero badges?"  - None: who really wants to fuck with that stuff every morning, only to have it get in the way constantly?  I tell him to let the Crest speak for itself - if they don't know what unit that is then they wouldn't know what the other stuff meant anyway; if they do know what unit that is they don't NEED to see the other stuff anyway.:2c:


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## CBTech (Jun 17, 2008)

My bro is an engineer out of Ft. LostintheWoods. He was telling me something about Sappers one day when we were all back home on leave. He was telling me it is hard shit and they are, from what I was gathering from the way he was talking, "Speshal". 
28 days? To be special IMO is to be in a training enviroment where it seems there is no end in sight. Running a race where you have never seen the finish line, running a distance that seems like the course never ends but having the drive to keep going. 28 days is a 50 yard dash comparatively. You see the end before it starts. Not in the Army but I think a tab should mean something more. 
OTOH, for guys like my bro, it is something to work for and will actually better their performance in the field. I am glad there is such a course. It's something to write home about but it definately isn't something that's going to make Suzy rotten crotch want to fuck your brain's out within moments of meeting you.

$0.02


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## gryfen (Jun 17, 2008)

sorry for the hijack.


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## AWP (Jun 17, 2008)

If we're going to digress into a discussion about standards or male vs. female anything (and I have no problem with this mind you) then let's do that in a seperate thread.

Thank you.


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## digrar (Jun 17, 2008)

Snowbird said:


> I've never had the opportunity to converse with a Sapper. . .



Lucky bugger. Anyone who's sat through their tenth rendition of "we are we are we are we are we are the Engineers etc" will know how painful they are to be around.


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## RustyShackleford (Jun 17, 2008)

I graduated from Sapper in 1998.  If I were still in, I wouldn't wear it unless forced. :2c:


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## MADMIKE175 (Jun 17, 2008)

RustyShackleford said:


> I graduated from Sapper in 1998.  If I were still in, I wouldn't wear it unless forced. :2c:



Yeah right! You shouldn't feel like you have to lie about it Rusty!





































HOMO.


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## hidesite (Jun 17, 2008)

Random Thoughts:

Considering the predecessors (the Ranger & SF tab) how do you award a tab for a three week school?

It's like that dork Michigan NG unit we came across one time in the field that all had on boonie caps with a "Recon" tab sewn on it to emulate the Ranger tab... 

I don't have a problem with them creating a tab for Sapper school but I think they need to enhance the course a bit before it rates a tab...

I have heard from those that have been through the course that i respect that it is in fact a great school. 

Female Soldiers may also earn the Pathfinder badge...

If they wanted to give a school a tab I would think the RSLC would have been a lot higher on the list. (Compare the course "curriculum") This was obvious "branch envy" on behalf of the Engineer field that fueled this since Ranger and SF come from the Infantry community...

I know a tabbed Ranger that didn't make it...

I know a complete tool-bag that did...

I also heard that to be an instructor at Sapper school you have to also be Ranger qual'ed...

_"I'll take a *Tab* and Cola... Do it... Do it.......... Do it..."_



.


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## SgtUSMC8541 (Jun 17, 2008)

hidesite said:


> Random Thoughts:
> 
> Considering the predecessors (the Ranger & SF tab) how do you award a tab for a three week school?


 

Isnt Airborne 3 weeks?


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## pardus (Jun 17, 2008)

CBTech said:


> 28 days is a 50 yard dash comparatively. You see the end before it starts.



SAS selection is 10 days long...

P-Company is 4 1/2 days...

Length of time means nothing.


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## hidesite (Jun 17, 2008)

SgtUSMC8541 said:


> Isnt Airborne 3 weeks?



The Airborne "Tab" is part of the unit patch, not an earned award... You earn the Parachutist Badge for graduating from Basic Airborne School not the Tab...


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## hidesite (Jun 17, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> SAS selection is 10 days long...
> 
> P-Company is 4 1/2 days...
> 
> Length of time means nothing.



You are comparing a selection to see if one rates to get into a unit, not an actually school environment...

When you can see the "light" at the end of the tunnel it's a HUGE morall booster...

I think the time issue applies here since the course, except for the Engineer specificity to it, has been designed to emulate US Army Ranger School. (Ranger School 2+ months / Sapper School 3 weeks...) 

Hell, they've plagiarized the entire course other than the fact the RIP and/or Pre-Ranger is as long as the entire Sapper School. 

They would have done better to develop it's own persona, not try and be direct "Knock-Off" of another...


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## pardus (Jun 17, 2008)

My point is time is not a factor, intensity is. More in a general sense.

1 minute would seem like a lifetime if your balls are in a vice.

Whether that rates a tab or not I don't care about.

It is kinda gay that they have based this so obviously off Ranger school.


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## 0699 (Jun 17, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> 1 minute would seem like a lifetime if your balls are in a vice.



Isn't it fun learning shit from personal experience? 

I'm a big fan of doing shit people say I shouldn't do...


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## pardus (Jun 17, 2008)

0699 said:


> Isn't it fun learning shit from personal experience?
> 
> I'm a big fan of doing shit people say I shouldn't do...



You shouldn't put your balls in a vice!


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## CBTech (Jun 18, 2008)

Now that I've heard the "Balls in a vice" relation I will re-evaluate my stance on the matter. I would have to look at the curriculum and judge that with physical exertion versus length of course. Next time I talk to my bro who is 5th Eng. Bn. I'll see if he can talk to a Sapper and get his views on it. Problem is, my bro is pretty impressionable. If the Sapper tells him they have to eat dog shit he'll believe it.


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## CBTech (Jun 18, 2008)

0699 said:


> I'm a big fan of doing shit people say I shouldn't do...


 
I subscribe to that philosophy as well. 

Learn from your mistakes and build on your successes.


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## AJA716 (Aug 23, 2008)

Thought I would throw my :2c: in here since I have gone to the school. It was 20 years ago (Nov-Dec '87) but the school still produces better Soldiers. The SLC began in 1985 and two of it's strong supporters (back then) were LTC's Flowers and Strock. Both were Ranger tabbed and one was S.F. They both made it to the rank of LTG. I served under both of them in Division and they were outstanding examples of Leaders. 
                           Some hard earned recognition for Combat Engineers is long overdue. All one has to do is a little research and see what accomplishments they have made but they are always overshadowed. Most C.E.'s have accepted this and it is the reason why we enjoy singing our Engineer song over and over! It pisses people off! 
                                                 The word Sapper is French for Sap or one who Saps or destroys others fortifications. That is still our primary mission but, todays battlefield is changing. 
                                                Here is how we primarily operated when I was in Division. One Squad of Engineers were attached to an Infantry Company. In my Squad I had 8 men. SL, RTO, and 2 fire teams of 3 C.E.'s.One fire team had a 90mm recoiless and the other had an M-60 and the TL's both carried 203's. We typically made a Jump at 0-dark thirty and moved to our objective with out Infantry Company. If there was an obstacle to be breached, we would exchange our crew served weapons with someone in the support by fire element and lead the assault team thru the breach. If there was no obstacle, we were attached to the support by fire element. When the Infantry element (BN size) went into a defense, we often reorganised as a Platoon and our PL laid out a plan to strengthen the defense. Then we were often let loose and roamed thru the BN area setting in obstacles. Minefields, wire etc. All the while, everyone else was digging in. Then when we finished, we would go take our place on the lines of our Infantry Companies and dig in. We were often placed at the most likely avenue of approach because we had the 90mm. When in garrison, our days were typical. PT in the morning with long runs, motor stables, weapons maintenance, battle drills etc.  
                     The SLC currently has a 53% washout rate for those that think the washout rate is a measure of the school. Although it is only 30 days long, it is FAST paced and intense. Believe me, everyday is physically demanding! There is a 6 week train up that is HIGHLY recommended before you go to the course. The 2 areas that fail most students are the physical tarining and the land nav course. 
                      Now i'll try to address a few of the comments on this thread.
1. Females: I too cringed when they started allowing females in the course. To this day though, many have tried and only five have passed. My thoughts are: In todays "BIG ARMY", females are getting closer and closer to the battlefield. Why not at least give them some additional traing that will boost their confidence and make them better Soldiers.
2. BAC is not harder than the SLC. Nuff said on that.
3. Sappers Lead the Way. I don't agree with that battle cry but, there are times when they do! 
4. Wannabes: We arent wanna-be anythings. We are asked to missions as C.E.'s and to reorganize and fight as Infantry if need be. We try to stay on top of both aspects with equal attention. This is why we are organized similar to the Infantry into Fire Teams, Squads, Platoons, Companies etc. In the event that we do fight as Infantry, we just drop our Engineer kits and grab more ammo.  The biggest downfall is that we have no organic fire support. As far as Ranger wanna-be's. The instructors at the SLC have to be Ranger and Sapper qual'd to be instructors. I think it is nothing more than the instructors putting their Ranger standards on everything. Personally, i don't see anything wrong with it. I have seen unit motto's with the Ranger tab above the unit patch. So, if it nothing more than the standards we are taking, that should be a compliment. Plus, there is some history between Combat Engineers and Rangers. 
5. 28 day course. Believe me, the course could be longer given the material you are expected to learn in the short time but, the funding just isn't there. 
6. Plagiarism. That is loud word to use, and I don't think it has merit. (refer to #4). In addition, what self respecting E-5 or E-6 Squad Leader who just graduated Ranger school doesn't come back to his unit and try to make every one of his squad members just like him? Is he plagiarising? 

Lastly, my comments are not intended to start a war. I'd be more than happy to discuss anything about the course and take the lumps if need be. But if we resort to the: my "JOHNSON is bigger than your JOHNSON" i'll have to whip out my JOHNSON cause I got a big-un!  

In addition, the following link is to the bio of the current Company Commander. The course truly does try to produce better Soldiers with some extra skill sets. 

http://www.wood.army.mil/577th/Hhc-577/hhc-577.htm


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 23, 2008)

I am going to go ahead and lock this thread because what we seem to have is people who haven't attended either or both schools (Sapper and Ranger) talking out their asses.  Two of us who have attended one, the other or both stated our opinions.  Oh, and last time I checked, jump school doesn't conduct a timed 12 mile ruck, slingload inspection, field expedient demo (test and practical), graded patrols, graded land nav course, blah fucking blah.  If you guys who are still in are lucky, maybe one day you will get your wish and get to wear your 'recon' or 'truck driver' or 'spoon' or 'sniper' or 'isuckcockforbeermoney' tab!  

One thing I like about the civilian world is that I don't wear my 201 file on my left or right sleeve.  My actions speak much louder than any than any tab or patch I have ever worn.


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