# Turbo Prop For COIN?



## Crusader74 (Jul 5, 2011)

Just wondered with ten years in counter insurgency operations why has none of the coalition forces ever adopted a turbo prop ..Put in an ISAR suite with an more protected cockpit and you have an excellent COIN platform.. With a greater loiter capacity than a Fighter and a greater range than an Apache, with just as many hard points would the introduction have changed any out comes? Was a turbo prop not used during the Vietnam war to great effect?


----------



## Robal2pl (Jul 5, 2011)

Just my 2 cents :

USAF started program to purchase light attack planes in 2009. From 100 planes it was scaled down to 15, then budget restrictions killed it (if news were accurate).

But...there are still A-10's, AC-130's and there are programs of Hellfire - armed Hercules in USAF and USMC. In Vietnam lot of planes was already avalible (Skyriders) and I thonk it was easier put them into service . And there are drones too - I wonder if they can replace Mk1 eyeball.

BTW, we have in early 1990's in Poland a project of making crop duster COIN plane, even with tail gunner , looked like small Il-2


----------



## AWP (Jul 5, 2011)

I'll let SOWT field this one, I'll just find myself pissed off and ranting. :)


----------



## Viper1 (Jul 5, 2011)

My Dad got CAS from a Skyraider during Vietnam.  He said it was the best air platform for that purpose.  I don't think it's such a bad idea to revisit the concept, even with the wonderful A-10.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 5, 2011)

The LAAR was more then Afghanistan, AFSOUTH was trying to work with Central/South American Air Forces to modernize their airframes.  We hoped LAAR would be accepted theater-wide and the numbers thrown out (1000) were a combination US/Foreign buy.  The buy dropped to 15, and I don't know why.  I thought it was interesting (in an odd sense) that they were going to be stationed at Maguire AFB in NJ and not in FL or NM.  I am sure ACC and the AF had a good reason, but I have to wonder why a COIN/FMS bird was going to be managed by ACC and not AFSOC.
IMHO-SouthCom is considered a back water, and anything geared towards that AO will probably not make it through the acquisitions process.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 5, 2011)

They should give them to the army. The airforce doesn't want anything that is not fast or stealth. But if you give it to the army it will get used. I will reenlist to fly it. It is a win-win for the army.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 5, 2011)

cback0220 said:


> They should give them to the army. The airforce doesn't want anything that is not fast or stealth. But if you give it to the army it will get used. I will reenlist to fly it. It is a win-win for the army.


???
They don't exist.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 5, 2011)

SOWT said:


> ???
> They don't exist.



Sure they do. Just not in our inventory. We could surely just buy another countries airframe.


----------



## x SF med (Jul 6, 2011)

Invisible J said:


> http://www.802u.com/



Sweet... especially with a mix of hellfires and the GAU19... that would accurately fuck up some bad guy's whole week.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 6, 2011)

Like I said, give it to the army, put an SF guy in the back seat, like they used to in vietnam and it would be the perfect platform.


----------



## pardus (Jul 6, 2011)

Sounds good to me.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 6, 2011)

cback0220 said:


> Like I said, give it to the army, put an SF guy in the back seat, like they used to in vietnam and it would be the perfect platform.


I agree, let the Army buy them, fly 'em and maintain 'em.
160th could do the FID Mission in SouthCom too.


----------



## Crusader74 (Jul 6, 2011)

I'm reading a book by a UK Apache crew in A-Stan called Apache by Ed Macy.  I think what came across to me from the book was the lack of loiter capability from Apaches and fast air.. which is how I came up with this thread idea.. In one mission they were loitering for 90 mins waiting on a B1 to drop its load before they could go on target due to a malfunction on the B1..


----------



## pardus (Jul 6, 2011)

The Army should have organic CAS assets as the Marines do.

Just makes sense.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 6, 2011)

Invisible J said:


> Columbia, Brazil and Chile are the only UH-60 operators in SOUTHCOM. Where are the 160th guys going to get and maintain their UH-1 and Mi-17 quals to cover the rest of the theatre?


I was only talking about the fixed wing LAAR mission.


----------



## Crusader74 (Jul 6, 2011)




----------



## Crusader74 (Jul 6, 2011)




----------



## pardus (Jul 6, 2011)

Invisible J said:


> Oh.
> 
> Well then...Carry on.
> 
> We do fixed- and rotary-wing AvFID in SOUTHCOM, so I was gearing up for a fight. But with no LAAR capability, I have no solid basis to argue. Shit



I think he called you a wanker in another thread.

Fight commence!


----------



## AWP (Jul 6, 2011)

Invisible J said:


> I have no solid basis to argue. Shit



Son, this is the Internet, you don't need anything to argue, not even a point.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 6, 2011)

Invisible J said:


> I'm two time zones away from you, advising people who have witch doctors on their search and rescue crews. I have neither the time or energy for pointless arguments


Your in Louisiana?


----------



## x SF med (Jul 8, 2011)

Invisible J said:


> I'm two time zones away from you, advising people who have witch doctors on their search and rescue crews. I have neither the time or energy for pointless arguments



working with the Rangers again?  or Force Recon?  Oh, damn, I was a witch doctor too...


----------



## Crusader74 (Jul 9, 2011)




----------



## DA SWO (Jul 9, 2011)

Irish said:


>


That the Beechcraft?


----------



## Crusader74 (Jul 10, 2011)

SOWT said:


> That the Beechcraft?



I think your correct.

http://www.aviationnews.eu/2009/09/...cation-of-new-t-6b-military-trainer-aircraft/

Avionics upgrade of world’s most successful primary trainer to deliver to U.S. Navy this summer
WICHITA, Kan. (Sept. 2, 2009) – Hawker Beechcraft Corporation (HBC) recently achieved a significant milestone by receiving Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) certification of its T-6B military trainer aircraft. The T-6B, an avionics upgrade variant of the highly successful T-6A trainer, will be the primary flight training aircraft of the U.S. Navy. In addition, this certification provides the foundation for avionics in the AT-6, which is designed to meet growing warfighter demand for NetCentric light attack and intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance capabilities.
“By 2014, all U.S. military student pilots will be trained in the T-6,” said Jim Maslowski, president, U.S. and International Government Business.
“The T-6 program is solid, and the upgraded avionics package will provide the military with state-of-the art equipment to strengthen and enhance the skills and training for student pilots.”
The FAA Technical Standard Order was issued June 25, 2009, following civil certification of the integrated avionics system by Transport Canada Civil Aviation (TCCA) on June 12, 2009. Receipt of the FAA certification allows HBC to proceed with delivery of the first two T-6B aircraft to the U.S. Navy. Further deliveries of Navy aircraft will continue in December 2009, with 15 T-6B aircraft delivered by April 2010 for Initial Operating Capability and the start of student pilot training.
The Navy is expected to acquire more than 260 T-6B aircraft to replace the aging T-34 fleet.
Hawker Beechcraft Gains FAA Certification of New T-6B Military Trainer Aircraft
The T-6B introduces a state-of-the-art advanced avionics suite while retaining all of the inherent training and flying characteristics that have made the T-6A the most successful primary trainer in the world. The T-6B will employ advanced technologies that include glass cockpit multi-function displays and backup flight instrument, Heads Up Display, hands-on-throttle-and-stick functionality, and integrated avionics computers that allow preliminary weapons training applications for military student pilots.
Source: Hawker Beechcraft


----------



## Crusader74 (Jul 10, 2011)

*AT-6 roles*

As well as being an initial trainer, the multirole AT-6 will be capable of performing missions including: net-centric ISR with the ability for precise geo-registration, streaming video and datalinks; light attack including combat search and rescue (CSAR), close air support, forward air control and convoy escort; homeland defence (border security), port security, and counter-narcotics operations; and civil missions such as disaster area reconnaissance, search and rescue, and firefighting.
*Cockpit*
The Beechcraft AT-6 is integrated with CMC Electronics' glass Cockpit 4000 avionics suite and has the same cockpit design as that of the T-6B. The open, flexible and redundant architecture offers an integrated approach for cockpit and weapon system management. The avionics suite includes primary flight, engine and navigation displays, flight management systems, global positioning systems, head-up displays, navigation and mission processors, multi-function displays and control panels.
There are tandem HOTAS (hands on throttle and stick) controls fore and aft for pilot and instructor.
*AT-6B avionics*

The AT-6B fully integrated avionics system uses two powerful mission computers to control weapons deliveries and other mission related functions. Integrated navigation and mission data is displayed on the large, 25° total field of view (TFOV) head-up display (HUD) and on three high-fidelity 5in×7in multifunction displays (MFDs).
The up-front control panel (UFCP) provides central control of navigation, air-to-air and air-to-ground master modes from the front and rear cockpits. It also supports radio communication and navigation aid management, weapon selection and programming, waypoint management and designation of markpoints.
The primary flight display (PFD) provides the controls and displays required to manage and present primary flight information to the pilots including attitude, airspeed, altitude and flight path direction.
The tactical situation display (TSD) enhances situational awareness by presenting a scalable plan view of the key elements required for terminal, en route, area and tactical navigation.
"The Beechcraft AT-6B will utilise the same cockpit design as the
T-6B."​​The colour digital moving map display (MAP) presents the aircraft's relationship to the outside physical environment. It also provides key flight, navigation and tactical display of information to give the crew a high degree of situational awareness during flight.
An engine instrument and crew alerting system (EICAS) provides aircraft and engine system information including status of the engine, propeller, hydraulic, fuel, trim and flap.
The avionics suite also includes a data transfer system for navigation and operation planning and a digital video recorder for mission debrief.
*Head-up display (HUD)*

The HUD is critical for both navigation and mission performance. It provides the pilot with all critical flight and weapons information, enabling effective and safe aircraft control while manoeuvring.
The HUD has a large 25° total field of view (TFOV) and high symbol brightness of over 3,000ft lamberts, for operation in bright sunlight. The HUD is fully night vision goggle (NVG) compatible. It displays critical flight information such as the flight path marker, pitch reference, climb dive marker and climb dive ladders. Basic flight data is displayed independent of master mode selection or de-clutter level.
*AT-6B communications*

In addition to UHF / VHF / UHF and SATCOM, communication systems can include, enhanced position location and reporting system (EPLARS), joint tactical information distribution system (JTIDS) and situation awareness data link (SADL).
*Weapon systems*

The AT-6B is equipped with a sensor suite that can include a variety of electro-optical, infrared, laser and hyper-spectral sensors, for example the Wescam MX-15Di. The Boeing joint helmet-mounted cueing system, in service with the USAF and US Navy, can be fitted for targeting.
There are six wing-mounted hardpoints for stores. With its MIL-STD 1760 smart weapons interface, the AT-6 can be armed with a variety of weapons including 0.50 calibre machine gun pod; air-to-ground missiles like Hellfire and Maverick; AIM-9 Sidewinder air-to-air missiles; and munitions including Paveway II / enhanced Paveway II / Paveway IV guided bombs, joint direct attack munition (JDAM), small diameter bomb (SDB) and 2.75in rocket pods.
"The AT-6 is fitted with cockpit and engine armour for increased aircraft protection."​​*Self-protection*
The AT-6 is fitted with cockpit and engine armour for increased aircraft protection.
An infrared countermeasures suite can include the AN/AAR-47 missile approach warning system and ALE-47 countermeasures dispenser system.
*Engine*
The aircraft uses a Pratt & Whitney Canada PT6A-68 turboprop engine which provides a flat rated 1,100hp. The range of the aircraft is more than 1,667km.
*Performance*
The AT-6 can fly at a maximum speed of 585km/h. Its cruise and stall speeds are 500km/h and 185km/h respectively. The range of the aircraft varies between 1,575km and 2,779km. Its service ceiling is 7,620m (with stores) and 9,448m (clean). Its maximum take-off weight 2,948kg.
*Total support*
An already well-established logistics infrastructure currently supports more than 450 aircraft at six US and two international locations, with planned support continuing through 2050.




*


 Expand Image*​
*Through the addition of open architecture avionics, state-of-the-art sensors, data-link, aircraft protection and weapons capabilities to the proven training platform, the Beechcraft AT-6B provides multimission capability on a low-cost platform.*





*


 Expand Image*​
*The AT-6 multirole system is designed for net-centric intelligence, surveillance and reconnaissance (ISR) and light precision attack missions.
*


----------



## SpitfireV (Jul 11, 2011)

Good looking and quite interesting aircraft.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 11, 2011)

I like the ISR Ball, manned Reaper


----------

