# MARSOC: CONQUERING THE MISSION, FAILING THE MEN



## ReubenB (Apr 10, 2014)

_Unfortunately the healthy, expected, productive growing pains experienced by MARSOC are accompanied by a multitude of other significant, more toxic institutional failures, ones that compromise the very livelihood of the unit and its future success. Problems that, if left unchecked, will present a stifling obstacle to the evolution of the organization, and ultimately threaten to deteriorate the progress already made. The majority of these issues can be generally attributed to major systemic failures in staffing and leadership at the regimental level and above. To thoroughly understand the context of this problem and what caused it, we must observe the organizational culture of the Marine Corps as whole, and comprehend how it applies to the existing structure of MARSOC. _​
Interesting article I came across regarding MARSOC. From an outsider looking in I honestly don't know how you guys do it. 

FULL ARTICLE HERE.


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## Teufel (Apr 10, 2014)

I thought this was an incredible article.  Well put and unfortunately no one is going to do anything about it.


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## ReubenB (Apr 10, 2014)

Yeah I was really shocked that this is going on in MARSOC. I'm not SOF but I remembered when MARSOC was standing up and just thinking, "They're going to stand on the shoulders of giants (Rangers, SF, JTAC, SEAL) and take the SOF game to another level". Sad to hear that it's own destruction is coming from within.


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## MOTOMETO (Apr 10, 2014)

I used to think MARSOC would be impervious to this bullshit that plagues the rest of the combat arms of the Corps.


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## Teufel (Apr 10, 2014)

MOTOMETO said:


> I used to think MARSOC would be impervious to this bullshit that plagues the rest of the combat arms of the Corps.


LOL I never thought that.  I always thought that the Marine Corps would be the undoing of MARSOC.  Any CSOs disagree with me????  For every 2 steps a CSO makes forward, some first shirt, non ITC/A&S/BRC field grade officer or SgtMaj will take at least one step backwards.  Or a dozen.


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## AWP (Apr 10, 2014)

That was...painful to read as a non-Marine.



> The current regimental sergeant major of MARSOC, for example, is a 27-year motor transport Marine, whose last assignment was - you guessed it - battalion sergeant major of 3rd Recruit Training Battalion, MCRD San Diego. I’ll say that again; the regimental sergeant major of MARSOC holds the MOS of Motor Transport Mechanic. This is the guy sitting on the selection board at the end of A&S deciding who’s fit to become an operator. This is the guy attending joint staff briefings, senior SOF leadership symposiums, liaising with key personnel within SOCCENT, JSOC, etc, sitting across the table from Army E-9s with decades of ODA time, NSW master chiefs, etc. Making policy. Influencing critical decisions. Representing MARSOC.


 
How could it get worse than that? Yet the article did. I almost picture Sean Bean's character in Ronin...


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## MOTOMETO (Apr 10, 2014)

Teufel said:


> LOL I never thought that.  I always thought that the Marine Corps would be the undoing of MARSOC.  Any CSOs disagree with me????  For every 2 steps a CSO makes forward, some first shirt, non ITC/A&S/BRC field grade officer or SgtMaj will take at least one step backwards.  Or a dozen.





Isn't that why most guys even go the MARSOC path (or any other SOF unit)? To get away from the higher ups that make your job shittier than it needs to be. At least most of the guys that I know ran towards greener pastures for that sole reason.  It never made sense to me to put a higher up from a non combat MOS into a combatant one. Especially Recon and MARSOC.


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## Teufel (Apr 10, 2014)

MOTOMETO said:


> Isn't that why most guys even go the MARSOC path (or any other SOF unit)? To get away from the higher ups that make your job shittier than it needs to be. At least most of the guys that I know ran towards greener pastures for that sole reason.  It never made sense to me to put a higher up from a non combat MOS into a combatant one. Especially Recon and MARSOC.



Guess what.  The majority of MARSOC's higher HQ has never been around SOF or recon.  The MARSOC SgtMaj is a Motor T Marine for God's sake.


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## surgicalcric (Apr 10, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> How could it get worse than that?



He could be an SF CSM with 20 years in the Regiment who makes the same shit ass decisions like ours do.


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## goon175 (Apr 11, 2014)

Wow.

If the article itself wasn't enough, just look at the comments...


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## Marauder06 (Apr 11, 2014)

Wow, that was a very well-written article.


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## digrar (Apr 11, 2014)

How does this every Marine a Rifleman falicy continue, especially in an organisation so Infantry centric as the USMC?


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## Ooh-Rah (Apr 11, 2014)

goon175 said:


> Wow.
> 
> If the article itself wasn't enough, just look at the comments...


I was about to say the same thing.  Looking through the comments I was expecting to read lots of "YEAH!...and you know what else???" type responses (there were a few), but most comments were as well thought out and well written as the original post.  Most impactful was the very real tone in the responses of "someone exposed the unclothed emperor, thank god".


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## buzzkill.0621 (Apr 11, 2014)

I'm glad to say that my battalion CO is a prior Force bubba. Maybe there will be more of this to come higher in the command.


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## LogDog0402 (Apr 11, 2014)

I wasn't surprised when reading the article.  Most Marines have a certain mindset that is forged during that initial training that becomes hard for the individual to break free of, especially when it comes to 1stSgts and SgtMajs that were not combat arms of some type as an E-7 and below.  I may not have been SOF but I was a combat advisor that filled a similar mission and I don't know how many times I had to tell the same 1stSgt to leave my guys alone and let us do our fucking job.  He was worried too much about appearance and not about fostering relationships with the Iraqis.  He wanted to tag along on a raid and see what we did.  He didn't get to go.  Most commanders don't understand MARSOC, Scout Snipers, HUMINT and Recon.  Most also don't know how to employ those types of assets when they are attached to them because they don't take the time to try to understand.  Just my $.02 from the stuff I witnessed.


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## DA SWO (Apr 11, 2014)

digrar said:


> How does this every Marine a Rifleman falicy continue, especially in an organisation so Infantry centric as the USMC?


So Infantry types can inflate their "warrior" image by telling everyone they are a Marine, and that makes them a Rifleman.

Sad, because I know Marines in support skills who are outstanding in their skills, guys and gals who blow their AF/Navy Counterparts away in all categories.


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## Teufel (Apr 11, 2014)

SOWT said:


> No Infantry types can inflate their "warrior" image by telling everyone they are a Marine, and that makes them a Rifleman.
> 
> Sad, because I know Marines in support skills who are outstanding in their skills, guys and gals who blow their AF/Navy Counterparts away in all categories.



I will say this.  It's hard to motivate a truck driver to drive his truck.  It's a lot easier to motivate a Marine who sees himself as a provisional rifleman who happens to be a truck driver.  It may seem like semantics but it works.


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## Swag0331 (Apr 11, 2014)

You always hear the first step to recovery is admitting you have a problem. Like the article stated, the Commandant of the time didn't want a Special Forces section of the Marine Corps. Why? Well, every Marine is a rifleman, right? And if the Marine Corps is one of the worlds most elite fighting forces and every Marine is a rifleman then every Marine should be on par with any special operator, right? 

In a perfect world where everything works the way it's intended to, maybe. But here in the real world where the rest of us live that is simply not the case. The Marine Corps is far too proud to ever admit that however. The Marine Corps has convinced itself that it's senior leaders are SOF capable despite their primary MOS. Thus the water purification specialist "water dog" 1st sergeant finds himself the senior enlisted man in of an infantry company or recon company or what have you. 

I'm no CSO (not YET anyway), but this is what I've seen elsewhere throughout the Marine Corps. Just my 2 cents. It breaks my heart that this problem is allowed to persist, but I don't see it changing anytime soon even though it's an obvious problem to many.


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## digrar (Apr 12, 2014)

Couldn't JSOC pull this into gear, by insisting that suitably qualified people are posted into these senior positions?


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## goon175 (Apr 12, 2014)

digrar said:


> Couldn't JSOC pull this into gear, by insisting that suitably qualified people are posted into these senior positions?



MARSOC doesn't fall under JSOC.


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## digrar (Apr 12, 2014)

I put SOCOM in and edited it out, so same same, with SOCOM?


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## Marauder06 (Apr 12, 2014)

You're pre-supposing a level of unity of command that simply doesn't exist, either in SOCOM or in the US military writ large.  Inter-service parochialism is so bad at the higher levels of the military that a few decades back *Congress had to step in and make us fix it*.  And it hasn't gotten a whole lot better since.  We can't even get everyone to agree on something as simple as a common ground uniform; how are we going to get together on something really hard, like doctrine or organization?

"But it's SOCOM!" Yeah, the same SOCOM that couldn't even get all of SOF to operate in a coordinated fashion in Iraq or Afghanistan until... well, until "ever" probably but for at least the first seven or so years of the GWOT.  

MARSOC is kind of the red-headed stepchild of both SOCOM and the Marine Corps. The Marines only reluctantly stood up MARSOC, and other extant SOF formations, particularly SF, saw MARSOC encroaching on some of their core competencies.  Then there were a few shenanigans that overshadowed a lot of the good things that MARSOC was doing downrange.  So, it's been hard for MARSOC to get any love.

The "MAR" in "MARSOC" means the Marines have wide latitude to do whatever they want with it.  SOCOM gets a vote, but the Marine Corps holds the trump cards.  ADM McRaven up at SOCOM has made some surprising progress on major SOF-related issues, but I'm not sure this is one that he will want to fight, or would win even if he did try to fight it.  If there is a problem in the way MARSOC does manning, the solution is going to have to come from the Marines.


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## Swag0331 (Apr 12, 2014)

And this is something the Marine Corps does on purpose to ensure "cross pollination", like the article talks about. The Marine Corps' way of reminding MARSOC that they are still Marines, I suppose. It may sound silly, but the Marine Corps is stubborn and slow to change anything that it does.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 12, 2014)

If the Marine Corps would step outside its own bubble for a little while, it would see that cross-pollination isn't an effective way to establish, grow, and maintain a SOF formation with the kinds of skills they're expecting their operators to have.  See also:  the early days of SF, before it became its own branch.

And lest anyone think I'm being too critical of the Marines here, each service has its own comfortable little bubble that it doesn't want to escape from, or allow anyone else into.  "The only thing harder than getting a new idea into a military mind, is to get an old idea out."


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## 0699 (Apr 12, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> If the Marine Corps would step outside its own bubble for a little while, it would see that *cross-pollination isn't an effective way to establish, grow, and maintain a SOF formation* with the kinds of skills they're expecting their operators to have.  See also:  the early days of SF, before it became its own branch.
> 
> And lest anyone think I'm being too critical of the Marines here, each service has its own comfortable little bubble that it doesn't want to escape from, or allow anyone else into.  "The only thing harder than getting a new idea into a military mind, is to get an old idea out."


 
MARSOC was originally sold to the Marine Corps (by people inside the Corps) as the opposite of this.  It would be a way for the Corps to use SOCOM dollars to train regular Marines, teach them a lot of new skills, and then (after 5 years was the time frame given) these Marines would be sent back to the fleet to spread those skills to the rest of the Corps.  I threw the BS flag as soon as I heard this, but the Corps at-large bought off on the idea.  Had it not been phrased that way (as a benefit to the entire Corps) I doubt it would hae gotten any traction.


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## buzzkill.0621 (Apr 12, 2014)

How typical of the Marine Corps to use an abuse it's members. 
Maybe people will over time realize that we do need MARSOC to be "SPECIAL." Allow us to be different like we need to be in order to flourish.


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## Teufel (Apr 12, 2014)

buzzkill.0621 said:


> How typical of the Marine Corps to use an abuse it's members.
> Maybe people will over time realize that we do need MARSOC to be "SPECIAL." Allow us to be different like we need to be in order to flourish.



MARSOC CSOs are a closed loop MOS.  The argument is about 1st Sergeants coming from outside of MARSOC.  The Marine Corps would have to create a different way of looking at 1st Sergeants to do this.  Which HQMC will never do now.  MARSOC has itself to blame.  If it was up to me (which obviously was not the case) I would have done it right from the get-go.  MARSOC should have created their T/O&E with ZERO 1st Sergeant billets.  Aside from H&S company I suppose and all the support battalions.  Have two 0372 E8 billets per company and two 0372 E9 billets per battalion.  One E8 serves as the operations chief, then he serves as a 1st Sergeant.  Just like the SF do.  Make the 1st Sergeant/Sgt Major billet a billet assignment and not an MOS assignment.  Call that Marine a 1st Sgt or Sgt Major but in reality he would be a Master Sergeant or Master guns.  Problem solved.  Not that hard if they did it right up front.  There is no way that mother Marine Corps would let that fly now.


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## Teufel (Apr 12, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> If the Marine Corps would step outside its own bubble for a little while, it would see that cross-pollination isn't an effective way to establish, grow, and maintain a SOF formation with the kinds of skills they're expecting their operators to have.  See also:  the early days of SF, before it became its own branch.
> 
> And lest anyone think I'm being too critical of the Marines here, each service has its own comfortable little bubble that it doesn't want to escape from, or allow anyone else into.  "The only thing harder than getting a new idea into a military mind, is to get an old idea out."



The only cross pollination that occurs now is with support Marines and 1st Sgts/Sgt Majors.  And officers.  MARSOC and the Marine Corps are too small to allow officers to have a MARSOC MOS as a primary MOS.  This would have second and third order effects because the Marine Corps needs those Marines to be rifle company commanders/operations officers/executive officers. There is no where else to put all these post team leader captains really if they can't go in and out of big Marine Corps.  I imagine this is why being a Ranger isn't a primary MOS for Army officers.  Any one from the 75th want to comment on that?  I don't know enough about it to speak on it.  MARSOC and the Rangers are about the same size I think so there are bound to be some parallels there.

And the end of the day, this is the cold hard truth.  The Marine Corps did not want to create MARSOC;it was forced to do so by Donald Rumsfeld.  The Marine Corps cares about big Marine Corps first and MARSOC second.  Or tenth probably.  I imagine SOCOM doesn't have enough juice or desire to really fight over an organization that only comprises 5% of their force.  3 battalions of CSOs is a drop in the bucket for SOCOM.  From what I have heard and read, SOCOM is most interested in our low density enablers like dog handlers, intel collectors etc.  On top of that, MARSOC (command level not CSO level) has not been playing well with the TSOCs and has been trying to demand how they should be employed in PACOM and CENTCOM.  At the end of the day the MAR of MARSOC is both the organization's center of gravity and critical vulnerability.


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## goon175 (Apr 12, 2014)

Teufel said:


> I imagine this is why being a Ranger isn't a primary MOS for Army officers.  Any one from the 75th want to comment on that?  I don't know enough about it to speak on it.  MARSOC and the Rangers are about the same size I think so there are bound to be some parallels there.



I was actually thinking of this as I was reading the thread prior to your post. According to this thread, the Ranger battalions (and later the Regiment) were set up to do (see Abrams Charter) exactly what the Marines thought they were doing with MARSOC. Set up an organization that will elevate the rest of the branch via cross pollination. We see now that that is not the case with either organization. As Mara eluded to, it just doesn't work. I think the 75th strikes a decent balance by keeping their enlisted for as long as career progression allows (the ever narrowing pyramid of promotions), but rotating their officers in and out and thus still accomplishing the intent of Abrams Charter. It also has 2nd and 3rd order effects, such as overseas when we need to coordinate with BSO's and the like, and the officers many times know the guys working at Battalion/Brigade levels personally, or at the very least can talk to them in a way that enlisted Rangers who have known nothing but life in Batt. can't.

Anyway. I think MARSOC gets a lot of things right that the 75th doesn't (mainly the initial selection and training pipeline), but they could probably look at what the 75th does in the way of promotions and leadership structure and make some improvements in the MSOB's.


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## BugsBunny (Apr 17, 2014)

Very well written article.


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## Hitman2/3 (Apr 18, 2014)

The unfortunate reality is that until we start getting our TL's into Command positions and our Team Chiefs to take over the 1st Sgt and SgtMaj billets things won't really change. We don't have any Officer at the upper echelons of our Command who have earned their place in the organization through blood sweat or tears. Because of that they don't care about what happens to the Command, as long as it doesn't happen on their watch, which is only two years anyway. Sine they will more likely than not end up back with the rest of the Marine Corps the Marine Corps is their master, and they will do whats best for the Corps not the organization. The argument of our Officers being closed loop wouldn't work is invalid. Besides the various billets and Commands they could take back in the big Marine Corps, ie school Commands or their various Officer required PME's, their are a multitude of billets they could take at the SOCOM or JSOC level, or even Washington. Granted would there be as much growth potential for them as their peers on the conventional side once they passed say Lt Col? Probably not, but that would be a choice they would have to make. Just another sacrifice for the love of the job. For that matter if we actually had competent leadership that had been raised within the organization there's nothing saying they couldn't go on to be the SOCOM Commander. Of course at our current rate this will not happen as we seem to continuously shit can solid TL's back to the grunts because "their time here is up". These men will more likely than not get out and seek life elsewhere since, as we all know, there is no going back. Especially after they got there balls crushed just to make it to a Team. I feel that we are purposely handicapped by big Corps in order to keep us on a leash.      

Even the majority of our CSO E9's haven't actually been on an MSOT, so while some are decent and better than their administrative counterparts they only know the Force Platoon and how things ran when they were there. When we bring up things like going to a Glock 21 over a 1911 we hear things like "for what the 1911 worked fine for me", forgetting to add in the 10 to 15 years ago part. I mean, why would you want to go to a lighter, more reliable, striker fired pistol with double the ammo capacity when you can keep a heavier, single stacked pistol with an external hammer that doesn't like being dirty and cost three times as much. I can see their argument.  We hear things from our senior CSO's like don't yell at the ITC students you'll hurt their feelings, don't yell at the support when they fuck up repeatedly because you'll hurt their feelings, etc. It seems like our Command cares about everybody's opinion except the CSO's. 

The things I hear on a daily basis would blow your mind. "Oh you can't go to the advanced Sniper course, you've got to go to the rifle range". Never mind that I haven't scored below expert since bootcamp, or that our range qual makes the Marine Corps rifle range look like the biggest joke in the world, or that I would be applying the same fundamentals and engaging targets out to 2k at the advanced course, its far more important that we show the rest of the Marine Corps that we're just like them. Thats what it all seems to be about, not making everyone else feel inferior, which they shouldn't feel anyway. Our compound had to be at a major Marine Corps base because we didn't want them to think we were trying to get away, getting relaxed grooming standards, even when operational and the need blatantly exist, is like pulling teeth. Hell we can't wear the Crye BDU's the command issued us on our own compound without someone bitching to somebody about how we're Marines and should be wearing Marine digis. Then of course my favorite, the issue of a badge. "Well if the CSO's get one, why can't every other Marine in MARSOC? They work hard too". "Well a badge might make everyone think we're trying to be different or special". I swear to God I never thought that in an organization that is suppose to be one of the manliest testosterone fueled gun clubs in the world there would be so many PC "everybody gets a trophy" bitches running around. Whatever happend to if you want it go earn it, and the world where being at the top of your respective food chain meant just that. They're so busy trying to make everyone else feel special that they're actually beating us down to build them up.

I'm at a point were I love what I do, and don't want to do anything else but I feel like I'm on a sinking ship with no life raft in sight. Its heart breaking because there is such potential and countless guys just like myself who just want to work without someone constantly shitting on them. The frustration we put into words is only a fraction of the frustration we feel. The really sad thing is that I fear it will only continue to get worse as we become a peace time military and we get back to being "REAL MARINES". Because lord knows you can't be real Marines without uniform inspections and field days. I've got about a year left and I'm sad to say I'm done. I've fought my battles both on my level and one or two above and as someone stated earlier the only thing harder than introducing a new idea is getting rid of the old ones. This is doubly true in the case of the Marine Corps.


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## Teufel (Apr 18, 2014)

Hitman2/3 said:


> The unfortunate reality is that until we start getting our TL's into Command positions and our Team Chiefs to take over the 1st Sgt and SgtMaj billets things won't really change. We don't have any Officer at the upper echelons of our Command who have earned their place in the organization through blood sweat or tears. Because of that they don't care about what happens to the Command, as long as it doesn't happen on their watch, which is only two years anyway. Sine they will more likely than not end up back with the rest of the Marine Corps the Marine Corps is their master, and they will do whats best for the Corps not the organization. The argument of our Officers being closed loop wouldn't work is invalid. Besides the various billets and Commands they could take back in the big Marine Corps, ie school Commands or their various Officer required PME's, their are a multitude of billets they could take at the SOCOM or JSOC level, or even Washington. Granted would there be as much growth potential for them as their peers on the conventional side once they passed say Lt Col? Probably not, but that would be a choice they would have to make. Just another sacrifice for the love of the job.



I agree with everything you posted but just want to make a few more points.  Yes there are billets that MARSOC officers could take at SOCOM and JSOC.  The officers exist but the structure does not.  The Marine Corps accounts for every billet across the DOD and divides up the total force structure to places like YPG, MARSOC HQ, the Pentagon etc.  In order for the Marine Corps to place additional Marine Captains and Majors at JSOC/SOCOM/Pentagon/wherever they would have to take a Captain or Major out of somewhere else.  This is why MARSOC was created out of 4th MEB and the Force Recon Companies.  It wasn't only for the 0321s, it was also for all the support Marines and structure that came along with them.  FYI there was a conversation at one point after Benghazi to take all the CSOs out of MARSOC and convert the structure to Marine Security Guards since we have been tasked with producing 1000 more MSGs with no compensation in structure.  Think I'm joking too.  Obviously didn't happen but it's a dust covered COA somewhere.  They ended up going unit by unit and trimming billets to come up with 1000.  And they did away with II MEF HQ.

The Marine Corps converted all the joint SOF billets, LNO and otherwise, to 0370 to give MARSOC officers a place to grow but doesn't have enough homes to keep them over there forever.  The Marine Corps needs some of the team leaders to come back and feed into existing structure.  Additionally, while most SOF communities promote by branch or speciality, i.e. I believe SF officers compete with other SF officers for promotion and SEALs compete with SEALs, all Marine officers compete with all Marine officers according to what mother Marine Corps thinks is important for promotion.  Which is probably very different than what a CSO or SOCOM thinks is important for promotion.  On top of that, there aren't enough billets to grow MARSOC generals, which would be the natural endstate.  IMO the Marine Corps intentionally created a C2 architecture and officer promotion system that requires MARSOC Marines to return to mother Marine Corps before assuming MARSOC command.  Very similar to the Rangers.  This way they could serve as the gatekeeper to senior MARSOC billets.  They also decide who gets senior level SOCOM billets...and guess what more often than not they are sending guys from the home team, and no I don't mean 0370s.   I could talk to you more at length about this but suffice it to say that while yes there is a way we could probably make 0370 a close looped MOS... you probably don't want that to happen.  The Marine Corps will always get its way.  Like I said before the MAR part of MARSOC is at the same time its best and worst quality.  Let's face it, the Marine Corps is terrible at doing things in the joint world.  On an individual level we are great but as an organization we are that tough yet smelly foreign kid who you can barely communicate with, doesn't know what utensils are and doesn't play well with others.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 18, 2014)

It's not just the Marine Corps; "joint" is still mainly spelled "A-R-M-Y."  My peers in the Marines, Navy, and Air Force took big career risks to come to JSOC, whereas in the Army joint SOF time is seen as career-enhancing.


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## DA SWO (Apr 18, 2014)

Teufel said:


> I agree with everything you posted but just want to make a few more points.  Yes there are billets that MARSOC officers could take at SOCOM and JSOC.  The officers exist but the structure does not.  The Marine Corps accounts for every billet across the DOD and divides up the total force structure to places like YPG, MARSOC HQ, the Pentagon etc.  In order for the Marine Corps to place additional Marine Captains and Majors at JSOC/SOCOM/Pentagon/wherever they would have to take a Captain or Major out of somewhere else.  This is why MARSOC was created out of 4th MEB and the Force Recon Companies.  It wasn't only for the 0321s, it was also for all the support Marines and structure that came along with them.  FYI there was a conversation at one point after Benghazi to take all the CSOs out of MARSOC and convert the structure to Marine Security Guards since we have been tasked with producing 1000 more MSGs with no compensation in structure.  Think I'm joking too.  Obviously didn't happen but it's a dust covered COA somewhere.  They ended up going unit by unit and trimming billets to come up with 1000.  And they did away with II MEF HQ.
> 
> The Marine Corps converted all the joint SOF billets, LNO and otherwise, to 0370 to give MARSOC officers a place to grow but doesn't have enough homes to keep them over there forever.  The Marine Corps needs some of the team leaders to come back and feed into existing structure.  Additionally, while most SOF communities promote by branch or speciality, i.e. I believe SF officers compete with other SF officers for promotion and SEALs compete with SEALs, all Marine officers compete with all Marine officers according to what mother Marine Corps thinks is important for promotion.  Which is probably very different than what a CSO or SOCOM thinks is important for promotion.  On top of that, there aren't enough billets to grow MARSOC generals, which would be the natural endstate.  IMO the Marine Corps intentionally created a C2 architecture and officer promotion system that requires MARSOC Marines to return to mother Marine Corps before assuming MARSOC command.  Very similar to the Rangers.  This way they could serve as the gatekeeper to senior MARSOC billets.  They also decide who gets senior level SOCOM billets...and guess what more often than not they are sending guys from the home team, and no I don't mean 0370s.   I could talk to you more at length about this but suffice it to say that while yes there is a way we could probably make 0370 a close looped MOS... you probably don't want that to happen.  The Marine Corps will always get its way.  Like I said before the MAR part of MARSOC is at the same time its best and worst quality.  Let's face it, the Marine Corps is terrible at doing things in the joint world.  On an individual level we are great but as an organization we are that tough yet smelly foreign kid who you can barely communicate with, doesn't know what utensils are and doesn't play well with others.


Likewise a STO/CRO/C-ALO competes with Pilots/CSO's for promotion.  
They have a few (% wise) billets that pretty much ensure a promotion, but outside those billets, good luck.


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## Hitman2/3 (Apr 19, 2014)

Teufel said:


> I agree with everything you posted but just want to make a few more points.  Yes there are billets that MARSOC officers could take at SOCOM and JSOC.  The officers exist but the structure does not.  The Marine Corps accounts for every billet across the DOD and divides up the total force structure to places like YPG, MARSOC HQ, the Pentagon etc.  In order for the Marine Corps to place additional Marine Captains and Majors at JSOC/SOCOM/Pentagon/wherever they would have to take a Captain or Major out of somewhere else.  This is why MARSOC was created out of 4th MEB and the Force Recon Companies.  It wasn't only for the 0321s, it was also for all the support Marines and structure that came along with them.  FYI there was a conversation at one point after Benghazi to take all the CSOs out of MARSOC and convert the structure to Marine Security Guards since we have been tasked with producing 1000 more MSGs with no compensation in structure.  Think I'm joking too.  Obviously didn't happen but it's a dust covered COA somewhere.  They ended up going unit by unit and trimming billets to come up with 1000.  And they did away with II MEF HQ.
> 
> The Marine Corps converted all the joint SOF billets, LNO and otherwise, to 0370 to give MARSOC officers a place to grow but doesn't have enough homes to keep them over there forever.  The Marine Corps needs some of the team leaders to come back and feed into existing structure.  Additionally, while most SOF communities promote by branch or speciality, i.e. I believe SF officers compete with other SF officers for promotion and SEALs compete with SEALs, all Marine officers compete with all Marine officers according to what mother Marine Corps thinks is important for promotion.  Which is probably very different than what a CSO or SOCOM thinks is important for promotion.  On top of that, there aren't enough billets to grow MARSOC generals, which would be the natural endstate.  IMO the Marine Corps intentionally created a C2 architecture and officer promotion system that requires MARSOC Marines to return to mother Marine Corps before assuming MARSOC command.  Very similar to the Rangers.  This way they could serve as the gatekeeper to senior MARSOC billets.  They also decide who gets senior level SOCOM billets...and guess what more often than not they are sending guys from the home team, and no I don't mean 0370s.   I could talk to you more at length about this but suffice it to say that while yes there is a way we could probably make 0370 a close looped MOS... you probably don't want that to happen.  The Marine Corps will always get its way.  Like I said before the MAR part of MARSOC is at the same time its best and worst quality.  Let's face it, the Marine Corps is terrible at doing things in the joint world.  On an individual level we are great but as an organization we are that tough yet smelly foreign kid who you can barely communicate with, doesn't know what utensils are and doesn't play well with others.



Didn't realize the Marine Corps still hadn't increased the number of officers in the force structure to account for our command structure. That seems pretty shortsided considering the increase in size we're trying to reach. Especially with the draw down in forces. I don't know the exact demographic they're cutting from but I have to imagine that if we're cutting over 25k Marines a percentage has to be officers. If that's the case I wonder how they'll even staff all of the teams and or staff billets? Let alone the various billets at SOCOM.


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## Teufel (Apr 20, 2014)

Hitman2/3 said:


> Didn't realize the Marine Corps still hadn't increased the number of officers in the force structure to account for our command structure. That seems pretty shortsided considering the increase in size we're trying to reach. Especially with the draw down in forces. I don't know the exact demographic they're cutting from but I have to imagine that if we're cutting over 25k Marines a percentage has to be officers. If that's the case I wonder how they'll even staff all of the teams and or staff billets? Let alone the various billets at SOCOM.



Yep.  No increase in officer structure for the most part.  They just converted billets from 0302/whatever to 0370.  Keep in mind that an MSOB soaks up the same amount of company grade officers as does an infantry regiment.  Team billets will be staffed.  Do you think that all SOCOM billets are really staffed by 0370s?  They may be tagged as 0370 billets but can be filled by anyone really.  SOCOM can mandate that a team leader be an A&S selected Marine but kind of has to accept however into the SOCOM J-3 plans or whatever.  I may be wrong now...my info on this is dated but suffice it to say the Marine is counting on those officers coming back to mother Marine Corps.  

MARSOC is trying to increase its numbers.  The Marine Corps is trying to survive as a service and stay relevant.  Who knows what is going to happen in the next ten years.  The only thing that is certain is that Marines will be back to painting grass, hours of drill and uniform inspections and silly haircuts.  If we ever stopped.


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## is friday (Apr 26, 2014)

This was a good article that resonated with me. Especially since a couple weeks ago my Senior Leader said: "I don't see what's so special about those Recon Marines. They aren't doing anything our Lance Corporals can't do." Needless to say, all of the NCOs present looked at him weird and tried as best we could to explain it tactfully... but, eh--honestly, I'm not sure if we can do anything for this sort of attitude except outlive it. I feel like it stems from the senior leadership of the organization and will be bred out with our new blood being more and more exposed to these other communities at a junior level. Marines aren't stupid if they choose to be educated. I don't think the next few generations of Marines will have this be as much of an issue.

It's a pretty common attitude/opinion from the Marine Corps subscribers. I hold the Corps dear to my heart and love the better parts of the organization, but good Lord, am I glad I gave up the "every Marine a rifleman" mentality. It's helpful in some respects, as Teufel mentioned. But it's just as harmful in other circles, IMO.

I think the Marines will eventually figure it out.


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## DA SWO (Apr 26, 2014)

is friday said:


> This was a good article that resonated with me. Especially since a couple weeks ago my Senior Leader said: "I don't see what's so special about those Recon Marines. They aren't doing anything our Lance Corporals can't do." Needless to say, all of the NCOs present looked at him weird and tried as best we could to explain it tactfully... but, eh--honestly, I'm not sure if we can do anything for this sort of attitude except outlive it. *I feel like it stems from the senior leadership of the organization and will be bred out with our new blood being more and more exposed to these other communities at a junior level*. Marines aren't stupid if they choose to be educated. I don't think the next few generations of Marines will have this be as much of an issue.
> 
> It's a pretty common attitude/opinion from the Marine Corps subscribers. I hold the Corps dear to my heart and love the better parts of the organization, but good Lord, am I glad I gave up the "every Marine a rifleman" mentality. It's helpful in some respects, as Teufel mentioned. But it's just as harmful in other circles, IMO.
> 
> I think the Marines will eventually figure it out.



Nope, Marines who can't make the Recon/MARSOC standard make themselves feel better by making nasty/snarky comments.


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## is friday (Apr 26, 2014)

Either that or they're not interested in the SOF mission.


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## mark c (May 21, 2014)

Goon, I thought that the reason MARSOC was formed was to get the Marines under the  JSOC umbrella? The Marines originally resisted sending Recon and Force Recon to JSOC for a few reasons. One, the higher ups didnt want to lose control of the asset by putting them under control of a non-Marine command. Two, the Commandant(and several after) didnt want to label any Marine unit as "Elite" or more elite than any other Marine unit. They felt ,and I share the opinion to an extent, that the entire Marine Corps was already an elite unit given its mission and the size of the unit compaired to the other branches. Not having the exposure to the JSOC enviroment and operating tempo has left the MARSOC community in a state of "catching up" with the other services that have a broader history of SOF experience. They are Marines and they will succeed and shine. Having said all of that I can only wonder if egos,envy and lack of knowledge at the higher levels are the real culprit here? From what I have read and been told by a few NSW guys is that MARSOC CSO's are very talented.
Whatever the case the higher ups have a duty to facilitate the needs of the men they are charged to lead and a moral obligation to do so.


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## Marauder06 (May 21, 2014)

When you're saying "JSOC" do you mean "SOCOM?"


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## mark c (May 21, 2014)

Maybe I need clarification. Wouldn't they be fall under joint special operations command? If I'm wrong please straighten me out. I'm not former special ops so I might be using the wrong termanology.


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## TLDR20 (May 21, 2014)

mark c said:


> Maybe I need clarification. Wouldn't they be fall under joint special operations command? If I'm wrong please straighten me out. I'm not former special ops so I might be using the wrong termanology.



No. You are wrong.


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## mark c (May 21, 2014)

I stand corrected.


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## goon175 (May 22, 2014)

mark c said:


> Goon, I thought that the reason MARSOC was formed was to get the Marines under the  JSOC umbrella? The Marines originally resisted sending Recon and Force Recon to JSOC for a few reasons. One, the higher ups didnt want to lose control of the asset by putting them under control of a non-Marine command. Two, the Commandant(and several after) didnt want to label any Marine unit as "Elite" or more elite than any other Marine unit. They felt ,and I share the opinion to an extent, that the entire Marine Corps was already an elite unit given its mission and the size of the unit compaired to the other branches. Not having the exposure to the JSOC enviroment and operating tempo has left the MARSOC community in a state of "catching up" with the other services that have a broader history of SOF experience. They are Marines and they will succeed and shine. Having said all of that I can only wonder if egos,envy and lack of knowledge at the higher levels are the real culprit here? From what I have read and been told by a few NSW guys is that MARSOC CSO's are very talented.
> Whatever the case the higher ups have a duty to facilitate the needs of the men they are charged to lead and a moral obligation to do so.



I think you are confusing SOCOM and JSOC. MARSOC falls under SOCOM just like USASOC, AFSOC, and NSW. They do not, as far as I know, have any elements that fall under JSOC.

EDIT: Didn't see the more recent replies, my bad.


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## AWP (May 22, 2014)

mark c said:


> I stand corrected.



Not to belabor the points made, but JSOC is a subordinate element of SOCOM.
http://www.socom.mil/pages/jointspecialoperationscommand.aspx

Wikipedia, but pretty solid and who doesn't love Org charts and pictures?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/9/92/US_Special_Operations_Command.png


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## Teufel (May 22, 2014)

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ine-awarded-navy-cross-fight-cia-an/?page=all

Marines have been at JSOC for a long time.  Long before MARSOC stood up.  Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it's not happening.


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## goon175 (May 23, 2014)

Teufel said:


> http://www.washingtontimes.com/news...ine-awarded-navy-cross-fight-cia-an/?page=all
> 
> Marines have been at JSOC for a long time.  Long before MARSOC stood up.  Just because you don't know something doesn't mean it's not happening.



Completely agree, I know for a fact there are Marines serving in JSOC. But, that doesn't mean that the Marines have an entire unit that falls under JSOC.


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## Teufel (May 23, 2014)

goon175 said:


> Completely agree, I know for a fact there are Marines serving in JSOC. But, that doesn't mean that the Marines have an entire unit that falls under JSOC.



 I wasn't directing at you sorry, just throwing that out there.  All the elements within JSOC are ostensibly joint after all.  People forget that we have had Marines at JSOC pretty much since the beginning of that organization.


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## BloodStripe (Jun 16, 2014)

MARSOC started with a failure by having the 4th MEB brass in charge of standing up MARSOC. While I was never a part of MARSOC, I was a member of the 4th MEB my entire enlistment. Here is a pretty good piece by Captain Lynch which details exactly why it failed(http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a503951.pdf). The failure of the MEB started at the top and could have been much worse had there not been solid NCO leadership (certinally not trying to toot my own horn, as there were plenty of other NCO's who were leaps and bounds greater than I). It sounds very much the same thing that is happening at the CSO level. Feel free to correct me if I am wrong.


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## AWP (Jun 16, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> MARSOC started with a failure by having the 4th MEB brass in charge of standing up MARSOC. While I was never a part of MARSOC, I was a member of the 4th MEB my entire enlistment. Here is a pretty good piece by Captain Lynch which details exactly why it failed(http://www.dtic.mil/dtic/tr/fulltext/u2/a503951.pdf). The failure of the MEB started at the top and could have been much worse had there not been solid NCO leadership. It sounds very much the same thing that is happening at the CSO level.


 
Good find and worth a quick read for anyone interested.


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## Teufel (Jun 21, 2014)

Hitman2/3 said:


> Didn't realize the Marine Corps still hadn't increased the number of officers in the force structure to account for our command structure. That seems pretty shortsided considering the increase in size we're trying to reach. Especially with the draw down in forces. I don't know the exact demographic they're cutting from but I have to imagine that if we're cutting over 25k Marines a percentage has to be officers. If that's the case I wonder how they'll even staff all of the teams and or staff billets? Let alone the various billets at SOCOM.



It looks like the Marine Corps may close loop MARSOC officers now.  I think that is a bad idea.  Let's say there are 16 team leaders in a battalion.  I don't know if there are or not but let's use this as an example.  16 team leaders do their team time and go away somewhere like SOCPAC LNO, S3A, MARSOC HQ, etc.  Then they have to compete for 4 company commander slots.  They may be able to juggle the timing so a few more guys get a shot at company command but the majority of team leaders will not.  No command equals no promotion in the Marine Corps for the most part.  Certainly no battalion command without company command.  Currently a MARSOC officer can check that command box in his primary MOS and get promoted.  I don't know how the SF manages promotion but I think we would and suspect we already have a lot of team leaders get out after their team time because they don't want to become staff officers.  Also, the Army has nearly many SF battalions as we have infantry battalions.  That probably helps.  

The Marine Corps, not SOCOM, manages promotion and manning and I don't think that a MARSOC primary officer MOS would survive in our manning and promotion model.  It's just my opinion but I think that you will find yourself short handed with field grade officers very quickly if you close loop the officer MOS.  I think are too small of a service and MARSOC is too small of a community to handle that.  MARSOC should probably adopt the Ranger Regiment officer assignment model instead.


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