# F-22's destroyed by hurricane...WTH?



## Kraut783 (Oct 15, 2018)

*F-22s, QF-16 likely damaged after Tyndall hangars hit by hurricane*

F-22s, QF-16 likely damaged after Tyndall hangars hit by hurricane

*More Than a Dozen F-22s May Have Been Damaged or Destroyed by Hurricane Michael*

More Than a Dozen F-22s May Have Been Damaged or Destroyed by Hurricane Michael

Man, I know they were grounded for maintenance issues.....but, damn, that is an expensive loss!


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## Gunz (Oct 15, 2018)

155 mph sustained winds hit that base. Logistically impossible to move them.


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## AWP (Oct 15, 2018)

Here's a great write-up on the why's.

Setting The Record Straight On Why Fighter Jets Can't All Simply Fly Away To Escape Storms

Even without this storm, the decision to end the -22 run at 187 airframes was beyond stupid. The things it can do beyond air-to-air plus their availability...very shortsighted.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 16, 2018)

Maybe we shouldn't leave unworthy to fly, extremely important aircraft, in a hurricane prone area during hurricane season? 

Im sure it would be a herculean effort to take off the wings to move them, but given that these birds will never again be made and they are damn good at their job, get the mechanics to do it and then give them all AFCM's.


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## medicchick (Oct 16, 2018)

BloodStripe said:


> Maybe we shouldn't leave unworthy to fly, extremely important aircraft, in a hurricane prone area during hurricane season?
> 
> Im sure it would be a herculean effort to take off the wings to move them, but given that these birds will never again be made and they are damn good at their job, get the mechanics to do it and then give them all AFCM's.


Personal safety be damned!


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## DA SWO (Oct 16, 2018)

BloodStripe said:


> Maybe we shouldn't leave unworthy to fly, extremely important aircraft, in a hurricane prone area during hurricane season?
> 
> Im sure it would be a herculean effort to take off the wings to move them, but given that these birds will never again be made and they are damn good at their job, get the mechanics to do it and then give them all AFCM's.


Maybe if Obama Administration had done a better job funding parts they wouldn't be hanger queens.
Do you have any idea how long it takes to disassemble a plane?


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## BloodStripe (Oct 16, 2018)

medicchick said:


> Personal safety be damned!



Mission accomplishment before troop welfare.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 16, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> Maybe if Obama Administration had done a better job funding parts they wouldn't be hanger queens.
> Do you have any idea how long it takes to disassemble a plane?



It's a mute point to argue your point about Obama. That ship has long sailed. We all know that Congress and the former POTUS set back the military due to funding. But, maybe if we stopped fighting people in mud huts and focused more on peer to peer or peer to near peer we would actually have money to repair and replace aircraft. 

But to answer your question, I have no idea, but I'm willing to bet it's long and hard, hence why I said it would be a herculean effort.


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## Cookie_ (Oct 16, 2018)

BloodStripe said:


> Mission accomplishment before troop welfare.



Jesus, I'd hate to be your troops with thinking like that. It's not a combat environment here.
I'd rather trade a dozen or so planes than risk the life/limb of the almost 100+ personnel it would take to save the planes.


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## SpitfireV (Oct 16, 2018)

I'm sure it was considered but I'm curious why they didn't just tow them into hangers or move less valuable aircraft out and them in.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 16, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> I'm sure it was considered but I'm curious why they didn't just tow them into hangers or move less valuable aircraft out and them in.



If I read the WarZone article posted above correctly, they were jammed into the hangars and the hangars were basically destroyed.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 16, 2018)

Cookie_101st said:


> Jesus, I'd hate to be your troops with thinking like that. It's not a combat environment here.
> I'd rather trade a dozen or so planes than risk the life/limb of the almost 100+ personnel it would take to save the planes.



Who said they would remain behind? Get the job done and go. They didn't even try. They just chalked it up and said F it.


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## Cookie_ (Oct 16, 2018)

BloodStripe said:


> Who said they would remain behind? Get the job done and go. They didn't even try. They just chalked it up and said F it.



Check out the article AWP linked earlier in the thread. The chances of getting these birds flight/transpo capable were slim to none.


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## medicchick (Oct 16, 2018)

BloodStripe said:


> Who said they would remain behind? Get the job done and go. They didn't even try. They just chalked it up and said F it.


It takes about a week per wing to remove. What would that even accomplish?  How are you going to move them? C-5?  Gotta find enough that aren't busy.  Ground? The body is so large they need escorts to shut down intersections so ground transport is out (remember everyone was evacing on the roads).  I've seen all this in person when the NAS here moved a few in parts.  It's not a quick process.


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 16, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> I'm sure it was considered but I'm curious why they didn't just tow them into hangers or move less valuable aircraft out and them in.


Hangars do not withstand hurricanes. Even so, the birds were hangared in the hope it would help.


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## Grunt (Oct 16, 2018)

Just short of flying them out due to their location, there wasn't much that could have been done in order to prevent them from being destroyed. The place got hammered...


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## BloodStripe (Oct 16, 2018)

medicchick said:


> It takes about a week per wing to remove. What would that even accomplish?  How are you going to move them? C-5?  Gotta find enough that aren't busy.  Ground? The body is so large they need escorts to shut down intersections so ground transport is out (remember everyone was evacing on the roads).  I've seen all this in person when the NAS here moved a few in parts.  It's not a quick process.



I get that it's a monumental challenge, especially with regards to security, but from an outsider looking in, they seemed to have no plan at all.


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## AWP (Oct 16, 2018)

If it takes a week per wing, and who knows what else, who has a solid hurricane forecast 14 days out? Even 5 days?

During WWII, it took about two weeks to assemble a plane from crates. That's 2 weeks with experienced, properly trained mechanics. Popping a wing is a depot-level task, so how many of those folks are available, with equipment, to pull that off in 5 days, much less 3 once the storm's track is better known? It sucks 20 ways from Sunday that this happened, but it was unavoidable. Short of moving them to the midwest (tornadoes), Cali (earthquakes), you're left with someplace like Luke or Robbins that are relatively safe. Both of those bases are saturated, but this may be a great time to re-evaluate where the -22's are kept and maintained.


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## Totentanz (Oct 16, 2018)

BloodStripe said:


> I get that it's a monumental challenge, especially with regards to security, but from an outsider looking in, they seemed to have no plan at all.



It's worth noting a little fact not being covered/discussed - USAF did, in fact, evac capable aircraft.  I'll go out on a limb and assume that if it could fly, it left, and those remaining were the aircraft that weren't capable of departing.  The whole story is being discussed as if everyone just said "fuck it" and walked away, which is an incredibly narrow view of the situation (if it's not deliberately ignoring the rest of the picture to create a much more sensational story).

Aircraft displaced by Hurricane Michael coming to WPAFB


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## BloodStripe (Oct 16, 2018)

Understood, all flyable aircraft were evacuated and unflyable ones were tied down. All non mission essential personnel were also evacuated. ACK all. But what I want to know as a tax payer is what steps were taken to and get those birds out of town.


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## Dame (Oct 16, 2018)

BloodStripe said:


> Understood, all flyable aircraft were evacuated and unflyable ones were tied down. All non mission essential personnel were also evacuated. ACK all. But what I want to know as a tax payer is what steps were taken to and get those birds out of town.


I really want to bop you on the snout right now. You're better than this. The USAF would have gone through every bit of regulation, protocol, and plans B, C, and D to get those assets out of harm's way. As a taxpayer, I believe that. And as an "analyst," I know it.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 16, 2018)

Considering we just shut the manufacturing line down se couldn't order spare planes...that's a fuck tonne of the fleet that is unflyable.


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## GOTWA (Oct 17, 2018)

BloodStripe said:


> I get that it's a monumental challenge, especially with regards to security, *but from an outsider looking in, *they seemed to have no plan at all.



As a somewhat experienced investigator, I think I figured out the problem...


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 17, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Considering we just shut the manufacturing line down se couldn't order spare planes...that's a fuck tonne of the fleet that is unflyable.



What percentage of the apaches are mission ready


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 17, 2018)

Ranger Psych said:


> What percentage of the apaches are mission ready


Beer math? 60%[?] Difference with that is the factory up the street from me is still building them.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 17, 2018)

GOTWA said:


> As a somewhat experienced investigator, I think I figured out the problem...



And as both a former military member and now a federal employee I've seen how many employees are. Semper I Fuck The Other Guy


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## BloodStripe (Oct 17, 2018)

The truth hurts sometimes.


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## DC (Oct 17, 2018)




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## Ranger Psych (Oct 17, 2018)

BloodStripe said:


> The truth hurts sometimes.


There's another statement involving pain that seems more fitting here...


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## AWP (Oct 17, 2018)

This is teetering on the edge of "going beyond discussion" so let's dial it back.


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## nobodythank you (Oct 24, 2018)

Working around PCB and Mexico Beach. Passed through Tyndall and it is bad. Sorry the images are jacked up on orientation. Posting from my phone and abilities are limited. I have other pictures but the files are too big. Also connection is spotty at times. I actually saw airmen working up a sweat!


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## AWP (Oct 24, 2018)

The Air Force is stating 17 were left behind. 31% out of 54 or 55 depending on the estimates.

We Finally Know How Many F-22s Were Left Behind At Tyndall AFB During Hurricane Michael


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## Cookie_ (Oct 24, 2018)

AWP said:


> The Air Force is stating 17 were left behind. 31% out of 54 or 55 depending on the estimates.
> 
> We Finally Know How Many F-22s Were Left Behind At Tyndall AFB During Hurricane Michael



That's really impressive. Hell, I doubt 70% of the stuff in my unit's motorpool is even operational.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 25, 2018)

So, how about aircraft bunkers instead of just hangars in Hurricane prone areas?


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## GOTWA (Oct 25, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> So, how about aircraft bunkers instead of just hangars in Hurricane prone areas?



Hindsight is always 20/20.


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## DC (Oct 25, 2018)

GOTWA said:


> Hindsight is always 20/20.


So is budget priorities and polititcal concern. Seems these days its more about 1000$ coffee cups than million dollar aircraft.


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## GOTWA (Oct 25, 2018)

That's million, but with a B.


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## DC (Oct 25, 2018)

It was estimated by the end of production, $34 billion will have been spent on procurement, resulting in a total program cost of $62 billion, around $339 million per aircraft. The incremental cost for an additional F-22 was estimated at about $138 million in 2009.
😲


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## AWP (Nov 3, 2018)

All but three -22's have left Tyndall and may never return.

The Last Of Tyndall's F-22s Are Leaving The Base And May Never Come Back


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## GOTWA (Nov 3, 2018)

That'll probably leave a huge hit to that economy if they move all that stuff out for good. It's the same in AZ if they retire the A-10.


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## DA SWO (Nov 4, 2018)

GOTWA said:


> That'll probably leave a huge hit to that economy if they move all that stuff out for good. It's the same in AZ if they retire the A-10.


Small hit.
1st AF is staying with a 1 Jan FOC date.
ABM School stays, and all the range work will stay.
The can downsize Tyndall and move folks to Eglin.


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## GOTWA (Nov 4, 2018)

How many bodies does it take to run a successful f22 flight operation? Pilots, mechanics, admin, supply, etc, etc? IIRC, when Jeff Flake was trying to cut the A-10 it was looking like 5,000 jobs were on the line in Tucson.


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## DA SWO (Nov 4, 2018)

GOTWA said:


> How many bodies does it take to run a successful f22 flight operation? Pilots, mechanics, admin, supply, etc, etc? IIRC, when Jeff Flake was trying to cut the A-10 it was looking like 5,000 jobs were on the line in Tucson.


Wing vs Squadron.
72 vs 24 aircraft.  GAO recommended breaking up and moving the operational F-22 squadron, the hurricane made it possible.  A couple hundred military positions go away.  FL will survive.


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## AWP (Nov 4, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> ABM School stays, and all the range work will stay.



Concur. ABM's/13B's are too understrength for the AF to drag its feet on a solution.


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## DA SWO (Nov 4, 2018)

AWP said:


> Concur. ABM's/13B's are too understrength for the AF to drag its feet on a solution.



They need the overwater ranges, otherwise I'd move the school to Tinker.  Most ABM's end up AWACing it anyway.


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