# USMC Force Recon conducts VBSS training



## Ravage (Dec 11, 2011)




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## HoosierAnnie (Dec 11, 2011)

OK Rav, has my chatty bitch of a muse been talking to you to try to convince me to use the idea "she's" been  harping on me about?  Change the boat for an oil platform and this is just what I've been researching.


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## Ravage (Dec 11, 2011)

Don't thank me, thank a friend of mine :)


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## dknob (Dec 12, 2011)

I am so curious as to the future of Force Recon. 

Type A personalities who volunteer for grueling training/selection (such as FR) sooner or later are going to realize Force Recon is not where the action is. What's to keep all these dudes from just jumping ship over to MARSOC?? How do the selection courses differ?

FR is such a peculiar unit that I still can't really understand. The reason I ask is because for so many years before MARSOC, Marines who want to be in special operations try the recon route as it is the closest thing the USMC had. But now with MARSOC in place, why do hoorahs seek out BRC which im sure is no cake walk when they can go to MARSOC?

Just want to point out that this is not a comparison similar to why Rangers 0ver SF or vice versa.


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## Teufel (Dec 12, 2011)

Pride and esprit de corps mostly.  MARSOC has been having leadership issues at the field grade officer level that have made some individuals leave or EAS.


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## DA SWO (Dec 12, 2011)

Kadena HH-60's.


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## dknob (Dec 12, 2011)

Teufel said:


> Pride and esprit de corps mostly. MARSOC has been having leadership issues at the field grade officer level that have made some individuals leave or EAS.


That makes sense. Marine Recon has a rich history.
Growing up, Force Recon was probably the only SOF unit I've ever heard about. And reading up on them I always thought that deep reconnaissance meant either doing Close Target Recces or straight up setting up a hide site in the backyard of Mullah Omar's mansion in November of 2001 (all examples). Now, being in the community and seeing how things REALLY work - I've realized that cool-guy recce operations are solely reserved for the highest echelons.
So if DA was taken away FORECON and they were left with just the recce aspect, then what are they really doing out there in theatre? Cus sure as shit they aren't doing CTRs on potential enemy locations.

I know you have a FR upringing - when you were there, was it all you thought it was in terms of assignments/missions?


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## Hitman2/3 (Dec 12, 2011)

dknob said:


> That makes sense. Marine Recon has a rich history.
> Growing up, Force Recon was probably the only SOF unit I've ever heard about. And reading up on them I always thought that deep reconnaissance meant either doing Close Target Recces or straight up setting up a hide site in the backyard of Mullah Omar's mansion in November of 2001 (all examples). Now, being in the community and seeing how things REALLY work - I've realized that cool-guy recce operations are solely reserved for the highest echelons.
> So if DA was taken away FORECON and they were left with just the recce aspect, then what are they really doing out there in theatre? Cus sure as shit they aren't doing CTRs on potential enemy locations.
> 
> I know you have a FR upringing - when you were there, was it all you thought it was in terms of assignments/missions?


 
I spent all of my Recon time with Battalion, and it starts off being what you think it will be. Hard realistic training, getting a little more leway on how you conduct business, better gear, more schools, and solid guys. However, for me personaly as I got older and learned more about SOCOM and what types of missions go to who I wanted more. Now Force was doing more than we were but not by a huge margine. They were doing targeting but it was mostly on a local level as opposed to a theater or strategic level. Don't get me wrong I loved being a Recon Marine, technically still am, a lot of tradition and pride in that, but in order for me to do what I thought I would be doing with Recon I had to take it to the next level. I'm happy with the operational side of things over here. Getting to do all the "cool guy" stuff I thought I'd be doing as a Recon Marine.

Like Teufel said problems at the field grade level are there, but they appear to be getting sorted out. Things can be better, but if there is one thing I've learned over the past 11 years is that something can always be better and if you look hard enough you can find something to complain about no matter where you are.

Going back to your first question about why guys would go to Force instead of MARSOC. These days Foce is made up of younger guys at the team level vs back in the day when it was mostly older guys, minus the TL and maybe ATL so a lot of them just don't have the time in to try out for MARSOC. Or in the case of TL or PLT Sgt's they have too much time. And then there are people like a buddy of mine who think there has to be a natural progression. In his case Infantry, Sniper, Recon, Force Recon, and now even though he wants to do it and would be awesome he'll be to senior for MARSOC by the time he can take selection. That plus what Teufel said about wanting to be a part of that tradition.


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## dknob (Dec 12, 2011)

Hitman2/3 said:


> I spent all of my Recon time with Battalion, and it starts off being what you think it will be. Hard realistic training, getting a little more leway on how you conduct business, better gear, more schools, and solid guys. However, for me personaly as I got older and learned more about SOCOM and what types of missions go to who I wanted more. Now Force was doing more than we were but not by a huge margine. They were doing targeting but it was mostly on a local level as opposed to a theater or strategic level. Don't get me wrong I loved being a Recon Marine, technically still am, a lot of tradition and pride in that, but in order for me to do what I thought I would be doing with Recon I had to take it to the next level. I'm happy with the operational side of things over here. Getting to do all the "cool guy" stuff I thought I'd be doing as a Recon Marine.
> 
> Like Teufel said problems at the field grade level are there, but they appear to be getting sorted out. Things can be better, but if there is one thing I've learned over the past 11 years is that something can always be better and if you look hard enough you can find something to complain about no matter where you are.
> 
> Going back to your first question about why guys would go to Force instead of MARSOC. These days Foce is made up of younger guys at the team level vs back in the day when it was mostly older guys, minus the TL and maybe ATL so a lot of them just don't have the time in to try out for MARSOC. Or in the case of TL or PLT Sgt's they have too much time. And then there are people like a buddy of mine who think there has to be a natural progression. In his case Infantry, Sniper, Recon, Force Recon, and now even though he wants to do it and would be awesome he'll be to senior for MARSOC by the time he can take selection. That plus what Teufel said about wanting to be a part of that tradition.


 
Thank you very much for the awesome answer.

I did notice a lot of those studs in the VBSS video looking a little young.


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## Hitman2/3 (Dec 12, 2011)

Not a problem


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## Teufel (Dec 12, 2011)

Force Recon has its share of growing pains too.  A lot more junior guys in the platoons than in the past.  We'll see how everything pans out.  There are a lot of things afoot at the pentagon for both MARSOC and Force.


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## DA SWO (Dec 12, 2011)

Teufel said:


> Force Recon has its share of growing pains too. A lot more junior guys in the platoons than in the past. We'll see how everything pans out. There are a lot of things afoot at the pentagon for both MARSOC and Force.


Hopefully budget issues won't kill those plans.


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## Ravage (Dec 17, 2011)

Quick question regarding VBBS missions by the USMC: do the Marines have their own RHIB units or do they use US Navy personnel and boats?


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## tigerstr (Dec 18, 2011)

Hitman2/3 said:


> I spent all of my Recon time with Battalion, and it starts off being what you think it will be. Hard realistic training, getting a little more leway on how you conduct business, better gear, more schools, and solid guys. However, for me personaly as I got older and learned more about SOCOM and what types of missions go to who I wanted more. Now Force was doing more than we were but not by a huge margine. They were doing targeting but it was mostly on a local level as opposed to a theater or strategic level. Don't get me wrong I loved being a Recon Marine, technically still am, a lot of tradition and pride in that, but in order for me to do what I thought I would be doing with Recon I had to take it to the next level. I'm happy with the operational side of things over here. Getting to do all the "cool guy" stuff I thought I'd be doing as a Recon Marine.
> 
> Like Teufel said problems at the field grade level are there, but they appear to be getting sorted out. Things can be better, but if there is one thing I've learned over the past 11 years is that something can always be better and if you look hard enough you can find something to complain about no matter where you are.
> 
> Going back to your first question about why guys would go to Force instead of MARSOC. These days Foce is made up of younger guys at the team level vs back in the day when it was mostly older guys, minus the TL and maybe ATL so a lot of them just don't have the time in to try out for MARSOC. Or in the case of TL or PLT Sgt's they have too much time. And then there are people like a buddy of mine who think there has to be a natural progression. In his case Infantry, Sniper, Recon, Force Recon, and now even though he wants to do it and would be awesome he'll be to senior for MARSOC by the time he can take selection. That plus what Teufel said about wanting to be a part of that tradition.


 
No disrespect, I am just an outsider looking in, but ( excluding the fact Rangers are a part of SOCOM) I see the same relation between Rangers and Special Forces- where the first also serve as a "feeder" for the second- evolving gradually between Recon-Force Recon and MARSOC. Even nowadays according toMARSOCs site, you can apply as a E-7 with up to 17 years of service.

You can also apply as an E-4 but I see this changing when they get their numbers up to where they want them. Even now you have to be an E-5 to get the new 0372 MOS, if I am not mistaken. 

My point is that MARSOC will gradually go the Special Forces way, in the "by, through, with" sort of indirect side of the fence, with older more mature people.

So, some aggresive Recon young studs will prefer Force Recon anyway, for a while and when they get in higher grades will cross over to MARSOC ( not many places for an E-6, E-7 and E-8 on a Force Recon Platoon) in order to remain part of a small operational Team.

Some others will cross over sooner, and then some more will stay in Recon-Force Recon for their whole career.

I suspect that getting to be "dual cool" as a part of the FR pipeline, plays a role too in atrracting people  from the Recon community, since its not a sure thing in MARSOC even if you are a CSO.  And maybe being a part of a much smaller more "personal" community

In terms of missions you obviously know much better ( and Teufel too) but I think FR has seen its fair share of action and missions working for the Corps especially  in Afghanistan.

Again this is just an outsiders opinion, I hope you bear with me.


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## goon175 (Dec 18, 2011)

> I see the same relation between Rangers and Special Forces- where the first also serve as a "feeder" for the second


 
I don't think you know what your talking about.


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## Brill (Dec 18, 2011)

It appears that you have your Xbox games mixed up.


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## dknob (Dec 19, 2011)

tigerstr said:


> No disrespect, I am just an outsider looking in, but ( excluding the fact Rangers are a part of SOCOM) I see the same relation between Rangers and Special Forces- where the first also serve as a "feeder" for the second- evolving gradually between Recon-Force Recon and MARSOC. Even nowadays according toMARSOCs site, you can apply as a E-7 with up to 17 years of service.
> 
> You can also apply as an E-4 but I see this changing when they get their numbers up to where they want them. Even now you have to be an E-5 to get the new 0372 MOS, if I am not mistaken.
> 
> ...


 
For the September SFAS course, my good friend who I served with in the Rangers said that out of the hundreds of students attending - he was one of 5 Rangers.

Rangers isnt a feeder unit for SF. Most guys leave the military or stay in the Rangers for 20. For those that move to other units voluntarily - more end up in CAG then they do in SF. In my time with the 75th, I've known 4 people that went to SF.

I concur with goon's assessment of your comment.


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## tigerstr (Dec 19, 2011)

I am sorry my comment came across in such a way. My bad, for using the term "feeder". 

Also, lack of SA on my part, since I do know about the friendly rivalry between Rangers and SF.

I have the utmost respect for both.

But I believe there was a time not so long ago, when solid advise for a young soldier with high aspirations, was to cut his teeth in the Rangers ( when they were more of a light infantry special operations force) get really proficient in soldiering and later on try out for Special Forces where they would also have to be teachers, learn the basics of a language and operate as a part of a small independent team, for extended periods, with other nationalities

A few years back, I believe, it was not very usual for a soldier to spend his entire 20 years with the Rangers, as he was gaining rank. I was referring to that era. And Special Forces at the time did not usually recruit from the Street.

So crossing over was not that unusual, although I did not argue Rangers were ever a majority as Special Forces candidates, as my comment may have implied.

Anyway, I was just trying to make a point about moving over from Recon-Force Recon, to MARSOC, at an older more mature age.


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## tigerstr (Dec 19, 2011)

Hell, I knew I did not just make it up or find it in my X-Box, as lindy kindly suggested:

“By far the most important reason for expanding Ranger force structure, however,
is the fact that it serves as a *critical feeder organization* for SF ODAs and SMUs. As the
*Downing Commission* explained to Congress:
Rangers become the prime source of candidates after 3 years or 4 years in the Rangers
to go in to regular Army Special Forces and into the Delta force. And so what it does is
it gives you a better pool to draw from, or it gives you a larger pool, so that you could
build those forces “… 

This is an extract from "Special Operations Forces: Future Challengesand Opportunities" written in 2008 by Robert Martinage when he was Vice President at the Center of Strategic and Budgetary Assesments, and before he became Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of Defence for *Special Operations/Low Intensity Conflict and Interdependent Capabilities*.(SO/LIC & IC)

As I stated before I am just an outsider looking in, but I am trying to have my ducks in a row, when commenting in this forum, obviously just with open source available information, and no personal experience.

Again, I ment no disrespect for the Rangers, I was trying to make a point.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 19, 2011)

Well, there you have it gents.  The VP of Bean Counters Inc. knows more than you guys with those funny looking green and brown tags under your name.  You should have gone somewhere to get a fancy title instead of enlisting in the military.


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## Brill (Dec 19, 2011)

*What the fuck is up with this shitty font?*

*I learned all about SOF from here.*



*



* 
*I would argue that the reason for expanding the Ranger force structure is they were deploying their asses off with two wars and other stuff. Is the Ranger tab or service in the 75th required BEFORE SFAS or A&S? (No)*
*One could argue that High School and College are more of SF feeder organizations than the Ranger BNs. Not a dig tigerstr, I am just suspect of anyone who uses "Delta force" in a serious manner. Here's that link with his 2008 paper (Page 16 is a MUST READ for USASOC members):*

*http://www.csbaonline.org/wp-content/uploads/2011/02/2008.11.17-Special-Operation-Forces.pdf*

*About the Author*
Robert Martinage, Senior Fellow, is an expert on defense strategy, military modernization, special operations, military revolutions, and advanced technology and future warfare. He has over fourteen years of experience designing, conducting, and analyzing wargames for the Department of Defense (DoD). He has written several research papers that have been circulated widely among senior DoD officials. He
recently authored _The Global War on Terrorism: An Assessment_, which was highlighted by the Council on Foreign Relations as a “must-read,” and co-authored _Dissuasion Strategy _(with Andrew Krepinevich). He has served as a consultant to the Defense Advanced Research Projects Agency (DARPA) for seven years.


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## dknob (Dec 19, 2011)

I read the transcripts to that house hearing as well.. the person who said what you quotes is a civilian.. General Downing said this in his reply:
"
_The Delta force is probably 70 percent Rangers who have _​_come out of either a Ranger special forces track or directly _​_from a Ranger regiment to Delta._​ 
he was correcting him in a nicely manner


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## goon175 (Dec 19, 2011)

Many Rangers went SF in the early years of Ranger Bn, as back then you could not stay in the Ranger Bn. They had a very strict interpretation of Abrams Charter back then, so you had to leave Batt. after a few years to go "make the rest of the Army better". So, Rangers not wanting to go back to the conventional force, went SF instead.

Fast forward 20+ years, and it is routine for Rangers to spend there entire careers (or up to the 1sg/CSM level) in the Ranger Regiment.

Below is how I would rank where Rangers go in the modern day Regiment, from most to least. THIS IS NOT FACT, BUT MY OWN OBSERVATION.


ETS (Contracting/College/Work)
Stay in Regiment
Go to a higher tiered unit at Ft. Bragg/Ft. Meade
Big Army (instructor slots, AMU, RTB, LRS units)
OCS or WOFT
SF
I have known 5 Rangers to go to SFAS, 3 of them actually went to SF: 2 of them did it to use as leverage for promotion (i.e. give me a team or I'm going to the Q)(they declined the Q after they got what they wanted from their CoC); 1 of them was RFS'd and did not want to go to the big army so went to SFAS instead; 1 of them was not selected after going to selections for 2 different higher tiered units, but wanted to leave Regiment so went SF; the last one had a dad who was a sgm in group and wanted to serve in the same unit as his dad.

Most Rangers are Rangers because they like going explosive and shooting bad guys in the face. Most Rangers HATE working with the IPU/APU/ANA etc. and thus do not want to go SF where they know they will only have to do more of that.

There isn't really a rivalry (friendly or not), the two units are apples and oranges, two professional units who have jobs to do.


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## AWP (Dec 19, 2011)

tigerstr said:


> As I stated before I am just an outsider looking in, but I am trying to have my ducks in a row, when commenting in this forum, obviously just with open source available information, and no personal experience.
> Again, I ment no disrespect for the Rangers, I was trying to make a point.


 
As an Admin, I would ask that you refrain from posting so far outside of your lane. Were you an American with some tangential experience your comments, however misguided, would be tolerated...a little. As a foreigner with zero experience in the American military you should refrain from "I read in a book" or "I saw on the internet" as the sole basis for your observations and/ or comments. Had this thread for example been about the Royal Marine Commandos and the SBS I would tell you the exact same thing.


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## tigerstr (Dec 20, 2011)

Will do Freefalling. There is a wealth of information in this Forum, coming from BTDT, and I understand my position as an outsider .


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## goon175 (Dec 20, 2011)

This kind of piqued my curiosity, so I pulled out one of my deployment manifests from 2007 and did a little "where are they now" analysis. Below is the breakdown of what I found:

Numbers were rounded to the nearest whole number

40% have ETS'd
36% are still serving in the 75th Ranger Regiment
7% are serving in an SMU
4% are serving in the big army (most of this category are officers who have to return for a conventional command tour)
3% have gone to OCS/Green2Gold/WOFT
1% have gone to Special Forces
8% were RFS'd
2% have been KIA (RIP)


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## dknob (Dec 20, 2011)

I once wrote this

If you took 100 Rangers…

4-5 Would end up in CAG
2 Would end up in SF
2 Would end up in RRC
2 would be KIA
5-7 would be discharged for wounds or injuries
3 would be RFSd
15-20 would make the 75th a home for 15-20 years
~ 65 would leave the military all together
we arent too far off


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## Red Ryder (Dec 20, 2011)

Good info for aspiring Army and Marine SOF on this thread. Thanks!


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## Poccington (Dec 21, 2011)

dknob said:


> That makes sense. Marine Recon has a rich history.
> Growing up, Force Recon was probably the only SOF unit I've ever heard about. And reading up on them I always thought that deep reconnaissance meant either doing Close Target Recces or straight up setting up a hide site in the backyard of Mullah Omar's mansion in November of 2001 (all examples). Now, being in the community and seeing how things REALLY work - I've realized that cool-guy recce operations are solely reserved for the highest echelons.


 
Why is it that CTR's and OP's are left to those at the top?


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## dknob (Dec 21, 2011)

CTR is one of the most dangerous duties one can perform in a war zone in my opinion. It's not like a reconnaissance mission where one is hiding from a "safe"-ish distance with some binos and cameras. CTR is performed in the closest proximity to a target as possible. It's not something you undertake with a squad or even a team. If you read Kill Bin Laden - Dalton tells of a mission in Afghanistan where a single shooter dresses up as hajj, gets on a public transit bus and makes the hours long trip to a house within feet of the home of a HVT to gain intel on their upcoming raid later that night. By himself, a QRF that is a long way out - what if he was compromised?

Could a mission like this really be undertaken by anybody else aside from those at the top?


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## Poccington (Dec 21, 2011)

dknob said:


> CTR is one of the most dangerous duties one can perform in a war zone in my opinion. It's not like a reconnaissance mission where one is hiding from a "safe"-ish distance with some binos and cameras. CTR is performed in the closest proximity to a target as possible. It's not something you undertake with a squad or even a team. If you read Kill Bin Laden - Dalton tells of a mission in Afghanistan where a single shooter dresses up as hajj, gets on a public transit bus and makes the hours long trip to a house within feet of the home of a HVT to gain intel on their upcoming raid later that night. By himself, a QRF that is a long way out - what if he was compromised?
> 
> Could a mission like this really be undertaken by anybody else aside from those at the top?


 
I know it's nothing like an OP but don't your Recce lads practice for CTR's? Especially since it's a Recce tasking after all?

Over here our Recce Platoons carry out CTR's, although the situation you've described above would be something that goes far beyond the skillset of normal Recce Platoons. Not all CTR's are like that though, so I don't see why the Units with Recce taskings outside of the top tier shouldn't be trusted with carrying out CTR's. Even in the above case, if CTR's are having to be adapted like the above, surely Units with Recce taskings training should reflect it?

Obviously I'm an outsider looking in, it's just interesting to see how other countries do the Recce job compared to us over here.


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## dknob (Dec 21, 2011)

Poccington said:


> I know it's nothing like an OP but don't your Recce lads practice for CTR's? Especially since it's a Recce tasking after all?
> 
> Over here our Recce Platoons carry out CTR's, although the situation you've described above would be something that goes far beyond the skillset of normal Recce Platoons. Not all CTR's are like that though, so I don't see why the Units with Recce taskings outside of the top tier shouldn't be trusted with carrying out CTR's. Even in the above case, if CTR's are having to be adapted like the above, surely Units with Recce taskings training should reflect it?
> 
> Obviously I'm an outsider looking in, it's just interesting to see how other countries do the Recce job compared to us over here.


 
Our Recce Platoons in the battalion level do special reconnaissance and CTR type missions. But by CTR-Type I mean they drive by target buildings and take pictures as they pass hours before a raid. And in larger elements then just 1-2 people. 

RRC/RRD's reconnaissance is very very intel/technical oriented. Wont get into it too much. Idk the extent of their CTR capabilities and experience.


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## Poccington (Dec 21, 2011)

dknob said:


> Our Recce Platoons in the battalion level do special reconnaissance and CTR type missions. But by CTR-Type I mean they drive by target buildings and take pictures as they pass hours before a raid. And in larger elements then just 1-2 people.


 
Ah I see, that's where I was getting a bit confused. Over here when we're doing CTR's it's on foot, usually within at least 40 metres of the target area, even at Bn level.

Thanks for clearing that up mate.


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## goon175 (Dec 21, 2011)

All I know is they wear black ninja suits and are issued throwing stars at CIF.


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## dknob (Dec 21, 2011)

lindy said:


> *What the fuck is up with this shitty font?*
> 
> *I learned all about SOF from here.*
> 
> ...


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## AWP (Dec 21, 2011)

I think we've reached the end of this recce discussion.


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