# Veteran Perspectives On The GWOT, and What Comes After



## Marauder06 (Aug 30, 2019)

So we have a thread on "the morality of the GWOT," but I don't think we had a consolidated thread on how veterans who fought in the GWOT feel about it, and how it affected their lives or the lives of their fellow vets.

Ground rules: just like any thread on this site, anyone can comment in this thread. However, IF YOU WANT TO POST AN OPINION about the GWOT, you MUST be a GWOT veteran, as in, you served overseas in an OER where hostilities were taking place that were covered by the GWOT umbrella. Others outside of that category may ask clarifying questions but please save your opinions about the GWOT for another thread.

*here's something* to get the discussion started:

_____________

"Listen, from one post-9/11 military veteran to another—we need to talk. 

Like me, you pulled a stint in Iraq or Afghanistan back in the day. And you made it back alive and intact, which is great. I’m proud of you for your service, and you should be, too. 

But you’ve changed. You’ve turned hostile, cynical and resentful toward the world around you. You spend way too much time on the Internet, stewing in the toxic corners of the social media world. You look down on all the civilians who didn’t join the military and thus “don’t get it.” Let’s not even get started on that thick mountain man beard you’ve grown…

The bottom line is that military service, and especially combat, changes you. But it’s up to you to determine what direction that change will take you. So make sure you choose to change for the better."


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 30, 2019)

I think Obama shit on every OIF vet at a time where we actually had things stable enough professionalise the Iraqi security forces. I did 03-05 when shit was fucking crazy,  came back 08-09, and there was hardly any gun play at all. The Sons of Iraq and all that jazz, was actually working. We could have basically given them a little breathing room before tossing them the ball and saying good luck.  I believe ISIS was a direct result of Obama's decision to not do the status of forces agreement. 

I was full in until that happened, and the fact that one clownshoe can be voted into office and basically toss the hard work,  blood sweat and tears of so many into a trash can left me pretty bitter. 

That coupled with my injuries and medical boot from the Army,  I can say knowing what I know now, I wouldn't do it again. Most fun I never want to have again. 

As for the guys I served with,  brothers for life and never a finer bunch of outlaws!!!   

Lastly, my family has a very long tradition of service in the Army. I'm hoping that tradition dies with me, the way this country flip-flops on wars, veteran issues and how they have tinkered with the gender morning bullshit, I've simply developed distrust for the government and the Army leadership as a whole. Call me jaded or whatever,  but there ain't no polishing a turd.  I hope things change, and it sounds like somethings have.  But the fairytale of bullshit values statements while everyone is stabbing others in the back,  in and out of uniform, nah, I won't lie to my boy about this country or the Army. 

My. 02


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## Brill (Aug 30, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> The bottom line is that military service, and especially combat, changes you. But it’s up to you to determine what direction that change will take you.



Since we’re in the open forum, I’ll be brief.

I was living in MD but in a MS Guard unit that augmented an AD SF BN so when I demob’d, I was back in MD but my support structure (teammates) were in MS and NC. To make matters worse, I was working in an organization that is stereotyped as EXTREMELY introverted and nerdy.

Even surrounded by family and coworkers, I was all alone. People who ensured my survival weren’t there. I went from being surrounded by guys I trusted and who would give the shirts off their backs to self-serving coworkers who do anything to get ahead.  Many meant well but didn’t understand how things were different. How could they? How does one even try to explain to suit and tie crowd about life in combat?..the desire to return but internal struggle not to?..living with both good and bad decisions?

My government friends just don’t understand the humor of a bunch being dehydrated, not thirsty but fucking dehydrated, getting IVs and cracking up cuz of the boner. I made the mistake of telling a work friend about going to the range years after coming back and the feeling of relaxation and security when I held my rifle. I felt safe again. I no shit thought they were going to call security.

Both my personal and professional lives have suffered because of OEF XIX but I am glad I went. I should have gone back when 1/3 went back over.

I’m REALLY eager to get back into the SOF world even as an old gray civilian because I’ll have a similar support structure.

If the topic is about morality of inflicting pain (terrorist, friends, family, or supporters) in support of GWOT, I enable specialized people to do special things to bad people. There’s a lot of work that goes on before someone declares Abu Fuckface worthy of surprise party. I’m not saying there isn’t CDE but rather if locals would take care of it, we wouldn’t.


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## Topkick (Aug 30, 2019)

lindy said:


> Even surrounded by family and coworkers, I was all alone. People who ensured my survival weren’t there. I went from being surrounded by guys I trusted and who would give the shirts off their backs to self-serving coworkers who do anything to get ahead.



This pretty much sums it up for me.  I've been retired for 10 years now, and still feel alone. I'm still a soldier and a misfit in the civilian world. I still feel like I have little in common with anybody out here. Any drama sets me off. I've mostly been able to compartmentalize my own combat experiences and close that chapter of the book, but still cant find a lot of common ground with civilians.  I'm excelling professionally, love the family, but I still don't trust anyone out here. That's why I'm here.


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## Brill (Aug 30, 2019)

Right there with you @Topkick .


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## Brill (Aug 31, 2019)

I think our perspectives have changed (more resilient) but We are not broken. I suspect the combat vets who “make the news” (like major crime) in a bad way had hidden problems before.

It’s Time To Reject The Myth Of The ‘Broken’ Military Veteran

That said, I honestly feel terrible for our brothers and sisters who are so overwhelmed that they feel there’s no way out. This board is my sanctuary...I hope others utilize it as a resource as well.


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## Kaldak (Aug 31, 2019)

Bookmarked for later.


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Aug 31, 2019)

I'm leaving for Afghanistan soon to do contracting, and I can't wait to be around like minded people again. I'm even going to put up with the childish humor. Damn you military guys are a bunch of idiots.....

Big post coming tomorrow or so.


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## Teufel (Aug 31, 2019)

lindy said:


> Since we’re in the open forum, I’ll be brief.
> 
> I was living in MD but in a MS Guard unit that augmented an AD SF BN so when I demob’d, I was back in MD but my support structure (teammates) were in MS and NC. To make matters worse, I was working in an organization that is stereotyped as EXTREMELY introverted and nerdy.
> 
> ...


You still in Maryland?


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## Marauder06 (Aug 31, 2019)

Teufel said:


> You still in Maryland?



@lindy If you are, invite Teuful over to your house so he can cook for you.  Damn good cook, damn hilarious story teller.


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## Marauder06 (Aug 31, 2019)

What were your big takeaways from your time in the GWOT?

*Seven Things Veterans Know… That the Rest of America Doesn’t* 




> Veterans are sometimes seen as a breed apart





> inside American society. We’re not; we came from the civilian American populace, and assuming we live long enough, one day we all return there. It’s also erroneous to think of the Veteran Community as a homogeneous mass, when, like the society from which its members came, there is enormous diversity of thought and breadth of experiences within its ranks. But there are many nuances and norms of military life that stand out as shared experiences and knowledge inside the Veteran Community that might be different than that of society at large, and those differences are worth talking about. With that in mind, here are some things that veterans know that the rest of America might not, to start the discussion:


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## Brill (Sep 1, 2019)

Teufel said:


> You still in Maryland?



Yes; not far Gettysburg.


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## Teufel (Sep 1, 2019)

lindy said:


> Yes; not far Gettysburg.


PM sent


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Sep 1, 2019)

*The GWOT*

My experience: OIF Jan 04'-Mar 05', Oct. 06'-Jan 08' and contracting in Iraq Oct. 11'-May 12'

*I do not regret my service, do not feel I was taken advantage of by the military, or that going into Iraq was a huge mistake based on "faulty intelligence"*. I can only speak on Iraq, here it goes.

_PUBLIC OPINION: "The war in Iraq was a shady concoction by shadowy power brokers like the skull and bones society, neo-con indutrialists, and politicians pulling the strings of the IC to distort the intelligence they had to start a war. They either knew that Iraq probably didn't have WMD, didn't care or were too stupid to actually know. It was perpetuated by the MIC; the purpose was to take control of Iraq's oil reserves, put $$$ in the bank accounts of G.W. Bush's cronies, business partners. It only ended up inflaming the region, getting thousands of U.S. troops, hundreds of thousands of Iraqi civilians killed, and wasting trillions of U.S. tax dollars on useless military hardware, healthcare for injured veterans, and increased the federal budget to unsustainable levels."

Me: That's a bunch of bullshit..._ Feel free to refute this if you know better than I. _


*

*
"By God, spare us your evil. Pick up your goods and leave. We do not need an atomic bomb. We have the dual chemical. Let them take note of this. We have the dual chemical. It exists in Iraq." 
-Uncle Saddam
_
Without completely derailing the thread into a conversation about the reasons we went in the first place, I'll just leave the above comments. 

My service in Iraq taught me more about how the government works, and people in general than I would have ever learned without my time in the Army. You learn firsthand how shady and full of it the media is, how inefficient the government is, how important the rule of law is, how weird a bullet sounds when it passes by, I mean the education alone was worth the risk.


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## Topkick (Sep 1, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> What were your big takeaways from your time in the GWOT?
> 
> *Seven Things Veterans Know… That the Rest of America Doesn’t*
> 
> ...


I can only speak on OIF, but I'd have to say that my biggest takeaway from the GWOT is that you can't build a nation unless they want to be built. It was obvious to me from almost SP time that building a democracy, training an Army, repairing infrastructure, etc wasn't going to work. I discovered that not all people share the same dream..thats a fallacy. We tried.


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## 11Bull (Sep 1, 2019)

I hope I don't get nailed to a cross for this...

My experience in Afghanistan wasn't action or exciting, mostly on a mega-fob being embarrassed I was deployed there. However I did get to feel what the thoughts about the war was for the average person over there.
 It was mainly either " I don't care, let me do what I trained for " or " Yea, this war is a lost cause". This was from both junior enlisted to guys in surprisingly influential positions.
  I'm not in charge of shit, but I see a lot of units sitting around to make the numbers look good, and a lot of Afghanistan not under our control.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 5, 2019)

I think that veteran's from every war are just like us, except WW2 vets. We have experiences that most civilians don't care to actually know. There were zero sacrifices made by nonmilitary families during the wars, except maybe worrying about how to fill a reservist or Guard guys spot at work while he/she were deployed. I think what made WW2 veterans different from us is that everyone made that war happen, from sewing to slinging led downrange. They came home and most of them had bought homes in the burbs and had neighbors that experienced the same shit they did. In my opinion, that support network enabled them to transition easier than any other group of veterans. My generation is lucky in that we had parents who are Vietnam vets and they didn't let us come home like they did.


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## Jaknight (Sep 9, 2019)

I hope I’m not out of order asking these questions.  My questions are 

1.) Was The GWOT worth all the sacrifices you men and women made?

2.) knowing what you know now would you do it again?


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## Kraut783 (Sep 9, 2019)

Tagged for later....


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## Marauder06 (Sep 10, 2019)

Jaknight said:


> I hope I’m not out of order asking these questions.  My questions are
> 
> 1.) Was The GWOT worth all the sacrifices you men and women made?
> 
> 2.) knowing what you know now would you do it again?



Yes.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 10, 2019)

Jaknight said:


> I hope I’m not out of order asking these questions.  My questions are
> 
> 1.) Was The GWOT worth all the sacrifices you men and women made?
> 
> 2.) knowing what you know now would you do it again?



Yes and yes. While it sucks that the Iraq and Afghanistan are still a mess, I wouldn't trade my experiences.


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Sep 10, 2019)

^Soldiers gonna soldier...

Marines gonna eat crayons...

Air Force and Navy probably does stuff too!! 

Not out of line. Yes to both questions.


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## Devildoc (Sep 10, 2019)

Oh, so many conflicting feelings.  Definitely don't feel broken, but I often feel alone.  Hence, my proclivity to be part of this forum.  Like our colleague @Diamondback 2/2 , I came from a long line of service, in wartime and not, and while I m proud of my/our service during the GWOT, what the .gov and .mil has done has absolutely embittered me.  

Was it worth the sacrifices?  Not sure.  Would I do it again?  In a heartbeat.


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## Topkick (Sep 10, 2019)

Jaknight said:


> I hope I’m not out of order asking these questions.  My questions are
> 
> 1.) Was The GWOT worth all the sacrifices you men and women made?
> 
> 2.) knowing what you know now would you do it again?


I can't yet say whether it was worth the sacrifices, but I'd personally suit up right now if the Army needed another old 1SG. Yes, I'd do it again.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 10, 2019)

Worth the sacrifice? If you ask my dead SL's wife and kids you wouldn't get a maybe or yes. My gunners face and teeth splattered all over my gun truck, didn't seem to me like a sacrifice that needed to be made. The countless bodies I've policed up off the sides of road and traffic circles, from the several VBIEDs a month, really didn't seem worth it.

Would I do it again? Take the bullshit ROE's and that stupid general order #1 and toss them in the trash, keep all the O6's and above out of the battle space, and run that damn war like an actual war, and hell fucking yeah I'll do it again.


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## Brill (Sep 10, 2019)

I was in actual pew pews for just 8 months but have spent years in various war zones and I’m not done yet.  I’ve only given my time. Others gave everything.


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## amlove21 (Sep 11, 2019)

Jaknight said:


> I hope I’m not out of order asking these questions.  My questions are
> 
> 1.) Was The GWOT worth all the sacrifices you men and women made?
> 
> 2.) knowing what you know now would you do it again?


1- Nope. Nothing we’ve done is worth the human life toll we have paid. 

2- Yes. Unfortunately.


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## Teufel (Sep 11, 2019)

It’s hard to answer your first question. The GWOT is an umbrella term that encompasses so many things. Was Iraq worth all the sacrifices we made? I really hope so but I’m not confident it was. Was our invasion of Afghanistan worth it? Definitely. Did we need to stay there for another 18 years? I’m not convinced. 

Your second question is a lot easier to answer.  I put men to the sword for a significant part of my youth and paid a steep physical and mental price for it. My body and mind will never fully recover from what I experienced in combat. That pain will forever live with me, but I still would not hesitate to go back and do it again. In fact I would gladly do it again today, despite knowing that I probably shouldn’t because of my family. I was always drawn to war and couldn’t tolerate stateside assignment while our Marines were dying in combat. I know this may not make sense to someone who hasn’t been to war but I was willing to give up everything, including my life, to fight alongside the brave men and women maneuvering under fire at the forward edge of battle. We fought, bled, and died for terrain that was once key but now is largely lost to the enemy and long forgotten. Strategically those moments are now mostly largely irrelevant but to us who were there they will live on forever in our stories and memories. I would do almost anything to be there again.


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## Brill (Sep 11, 2019)

Teufel said:


> ...I was willing to give up everything, including my life, to fight alongside the brave men and women maneuvering under fire at the forward edge of battle...I would do almost anything to be there again.



You summarized “why we fight” and why we miss it.


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## GOTWA (Sep 11, 2019)

As far as I'm concerned, I haven't done enough.  I only have 24 months OCONUS with a another 10 month pump just around the corner.  I have one senior NCO whom I look up to that's done 60 months overseas.  I'm single with no kids.  I would gladly fill the shoes of someone with a family back home, just so they don't have to worry about the possibility of growing up without a father or husband.  Me, well, I don't have those worries.


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## Topkick (Sep 11, 2019)

GOTWA said:


> As far as I'm concerned, I haven't done enough.  I only have 24 months OCONUS with a another 10 month pump just around the corner.  I have one senior NCO whom I look up to that's done 60 months overseas.  I'm single with no kids.  I would gladly fill the shoes of someone with a family back home, just so they don't have to worry about the possibility of growing up without a father or husband.  Me, well, I don't have those worries.


I understand what you mean, but you are not less important brother!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 12, 2019)

GOTWA said:


> As far as I'm concerned, I haven't done enough.  I only have 24 months OCONUS with a another 10 month pump just around the corner.  I have one senior NCO whom I look up to that's done 60 months overseas.  I'm single with no kids.  I would gladly fill the shoes of someone with a family back home, just so they don't have to worry about the possibility of growing up without a father or husband.  Me, well, I don't have those worries.



Hold the line.


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## AdamZ42 (Sep 26, 2019)

What I am taking away from the experiences you all have posted is that in the end it is all about camaraderie and serving a country you love, despite hazy politics. That being said I have two questions.  

What was your motivation for going to war and when it was challenged how did you stay strong ? 

How did the local populations perceive coalition forces in the beginning and how do they perceive us now ?


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## Brill (Sep 27, 2019)

AdamZ42 said:


> What was your motivation for going to war and when it was challenged how did you stay strong ?
> 
> How did the local populations perceive coalition forces in the beginning and how do they perceive us now ?



I didn’t want to answer the grandkids “I stayed inside a bulletproof and air conditioned SCIF during the way.” plus the maroon beret made my green eyes “pop” unlike my “Dixie cup” or “dog bowl” did.

They fucking hated us...and still do. No different than Balt’morians viewpoint of police.

Seriously, guys who go and succeed “say”, “The We are more important to me than the I.” I never wanted America to see the picture of me in my dress greens standing in front of the flag but I damn sure would do everything in my power to ensure that America didn’t see my teammates.

Having said that, I was very naive about the enemy’s concern about my wants.


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## Devildoc (Sep 27, 2019)

AdamZ42 said:


> What I am taking away from the experiences you all have posted is that in the end it is all about camaraderie and serving a country you love, despite hazy politics. That being said I have two questions.
> 
> What was your motivation for going to war and when it was challenged how did you stay strong ?
> 
> How did the local populations perceive coalition forces in the beginning and how do they perceive us now ?



My motivation?  I was in during 9/11, not 'just' after.  I went from a peacetime to wartime footing in the span of, what, 17 minutes on 9/11?  I don't recall ever being challenged, except one time when a local lefty did the whole "Bush lied, men died" chant in my face.  I just shrugged it off.  IDGAF.

As for your last, I don't know, and I don't know.  I am not/was not SF, so local populace didn't mean much to me unless you gave up intel or were a target.


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## Gunz (Sep 27, 2019)

My question is for those of you who were imbedded with, advised, and conducted daily combat operations with host-nation forces. I'm talking ground-level, small-unit operations that dealt with FID, COIN, interaction with civilians at the village/tribal level.

Were you able to establish a good rapport with your Counterparts?

Were you able to maintain rapport?

Were you ever suspect of your Counterparts? Did you sense resentment on their part?

Were they dependable?

Would you serve with them again?

What were some of the most challenging (or frustrating) aspects of working with your host-nation Counterparts?

Were there any challenging (or frustrating) aspects of dealing with your chain-of-command (or theater command) as it related to your mission?

If so, what could Big Army/Big Marine Corps do to improve and better assist teams working with Counterparts in the hinterlands at the village/tribal level?


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## Topkick (Sep 27, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> Were you able to establish a good rapport with your Counterparts?


No. A bunch didn't stick around after payday and weren't there for the right reasons, so no chance at building much rapport. That was my experience.


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## Brill (Sep 27, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> My question is for those of you who were imbedded with, advised, and conducted daily combat operations with host-nation forces. I'm talking ground-level, small-unit operations that dealt with FID, COIN, interaction with civilians at the village/tribal level.
> 
> Were you able to establish a good rapport with your Counterparts? Yes. They had obviously worked with SIGINT dudes before cuz they brought us all the captured phones and radios plus we ALWAYS had terps.
> 
> ...


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## racing_kitty (Sep 27, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> My question is for those of you who were imbedded with, advised, and conducted daily combat operations with host-nation forces. I'm talking ground-level, small-unit operations that dealt with FID, COIN, interaction with civilians at the village/tribal level.
> 
> Were you able to establish a good rapport with your Counterparts?
> 
> ...


Tagging your post for a reply later.


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## Kraut783 (Sep 27, 2019)

Note: luckily, in A-stan in 2002 our counterparts were warlord soldiers and not the ANA.

Were you able to establish a good rapport with your Counterparts? Yes

Were you able to maintain rapport? Yes

Were you ever suspect of your Counterparts? Did you sense resentment on their part? No, they were happy to have us with them.

Were they dependable? Yes

Would you serve with them again? Yes...but I would not serve with the ANA...this is not counting the SOF assest of the ANA that seem to have had success.


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## Teufel (Sep 27, 2019)

I have spent a lot of time with partnered units across Africa, Iraq, and Afghanistan. Everything depends on the unit in question, especially on the host nation leadership. Strong leaders create strong units. I’ve seen everything across the spectrum except a green on blue, thank God. A group of Afghan police were actually the best I ever worked with. Their boss was a seasoned, no nonsense Mujahideen who wanted to help his people. It was a very proficient and aggressive unit.


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