# Pathfinder School To Get Cut



## Marauder06 (Nov 13, 2020)

I'm actually OK with this.  I think the skills were useful, but could be (and largely were) taught in other courses.  I think the only reason people go to this school--and certainly the only reason I went, as an S2 in the 160th--was because it has a cool badge associated with it.



> The Army will discontinue its historic Pathfinder School at Fort Benning, Georgia, as leaders prepare for fiscal constraints in future budgets and expect a shift in how they wage war.
> 
> Pathfinder School at Fort Benning slated to officially get the ax


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## DA SWO (Nov 13, 2020)

DZSO, DZCO pretty much cover it.
AF has multiple AFSC's that can do it with better equipment too.


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## CQB (Dec 1, 2020)

How relevant are jump wings now? Yep, Kewl patch, but how useful is it as an insertion skill.


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## Marauder06 (Dec 1, 2020)

CQB said:


> How relevant are jump wings now? Yep, Kewl patch, but how useful is it as an insertion skill.


I think it's still useful, just not on the scale the US currently produces.  It's almost more of a retention / esprit / self-confidence thing than something we anticipate using largescale in the future, I think.


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## The Hate Ape (Dec 1, 2020)

CQB said:


> How relevant are jump wings now? Yep, Kewl patch, but how useful is it as an insertion skill.


Extremely relevant when future conflicts are considered. From that perspective, masses of troops are necessary to campaign/control territory even with enemy area denial counter measures considered.

This is law just as it is timeless.

The enemy threat/defensive posture can & will be addressed in a variety of ways prior to wheels up. You’re going to have to get a bunch of equipment/troops/etc on enemy land at some point on your own accord despite whatever international relationships our country has at its disposal.

So until we develop a faster & more efficient delivery system in areas where geography would otherwise impede or disable momentum, jumping will remain relevant. We need to maintain that skillset and our subject matter experts IOT be effective down the road without falling victim to our near-target operations goggles.


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## Devildoc (Dec 1, 2020)

It doesn't even have to be relevant, it just has to be a capability.  Add one more wrinkle an adversary has to worry about, one more contingency plan for them, one more avenue to protect and with which to be spread thin.

We have not had a mass airborne drop by non-SOF units in how long, yet we know we _can_.


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 1, 2020)

CQB said:


> How relevant are jump wings now? Yep, Kewl patch, but how useful is it as an insertion skill.



Depends on the enemy and what we'll before wheels up @The Hate Ape stated. 

In the last 20 years there were three "major" combat jumps between Iraq and Afghanistan for the US Army that are at least public knowledge. 

Operation Rhino- Company + (3/75)

Objective Serpent- Company (3/75)

Operation Northern Delay- Battalion+ (173rd ABN)

I'm unsure of removing the Pathfinder School completely makes sense, I know that they ran the course at Ft Campbell.  If anything I would be in favor of consolidating the course with the Airborne school house. 

What we have seen consistently in the last decade+ is almost all divisions wanting an Air Assault School on post. The moment 10th MTN stood their's up is the moment a GO was like: "Why do they get one?" So now there is an Air Assault School at Ft Hood and Ft Bliss as well. 

Generally speaking, when I was at Bliss there was a decent reason behind standing one up because we had an SBCT on post (that's gone, and thank god, that unit had all sorts of issues when I was there). But for some reason Big Army thinks ABCTs need to have Air Assault in their METL. So Ft Bliss and Ft Hood keep their air assault schools.


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## Marauder06 (Dec 1, 2020)

West Point now has an Air Assault school on campus as well.  When it's used, it is staffed by cadre from one of the existing schools (Campbell, I think).


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## DasBoot (Dec 1, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> Depends on the enemy and what we'll before wheels up @The Hate Ape stated.
> 
> In the last 20 years there were three "major" combat jumps between Iraq and Afghanistan for the US Army that are at least public knowledge.
> 
> ...


It’s already “consolidated” with Airborne school. It’s a separate company from JM and BAC that is run under ARTB.

In line with your post, I think the best option is to have divisions set up their own Pathfinder schools. There are several different Air Assault courses spread across the Army. Same curriculum, same badge. Different locations.


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## Devildoc (Dec 1, 2020)

DasBoot said:


> It’s already “consolidated” with Airborne school. It’s a separate company from JM and BAC that is run under ARTB.
> 
> I think the best option is to have divisions set up their own Pathfinder schools. There are several different Air Assault courses spread across the Army. Same curriculum, same badge. Different locations. That would be a good idea IMO.



Once upon a time the Navy did this with diver.  They had...5 I think.  Now just the one.  With small schools and small enrollments it sounds like it is easy to do.


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## DA SWO (Dec 1, 2020)

CQB said:


> How relevant are jump wings now? Yep, Kewl patch, but how useful is it as an insertion skill.


You'd be surprised at the number of Jumps made into Afghanistan during the early phase.


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## CQB (Dec 1, 2020)

DA SWO said:


> You'd be surprised at the number of Jumps made into Afghanistan during the early phase.


Yep I remember now, there was a tac jump there & reading all the above posts, it looks like the skill will be around for a bit longer.


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## AWP (Dec 1, 2020)

Airborne is such a weird thing in the US Army.

You can get an Airborne contract, complete jump school, and never spend a day on jump status after that. We hand out the school (along with Air Assault) as a recruiting and retention bonus (promotions points if you're a grad) and to just about any officer candidate/ cadet in that pipeline. The Army throws wings at people.

BUT

There are valid reasons to have an airborne capability. It isn't just "we can do this" but it also shows our adversaries that...we can do this. In the same vein as the Marine Corps with an afloat MEU, we can put a brigade anywhere in the world within 18 hours. We can put a brigade plus a Ranger BN anywhere within 18 hours. Those units bring attachments from the Air Force who can wreck a lot of shit because we aren't dropping 3,000-ish people anywhere without the considerable might of the AF overhead.

Nations out there know that we can take a bridgehead, seize an airfield, and begin conducting offensive operations within 18 hours of giving the order. That's why discussions about cutting the Marine Corps are as stupid as those about cutting the Army's airborne units. Pathfinder going away is a "heritage loss", but these things called Special Tactics Squadrons have plenty of men more than capable, and willing, of doing the deed.

Every now and then the Army gets one right, even if this stings a little.


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## Devildoc (Dec 1, 2020)

My only complaint is that we have only one airborne division, and the 101st is air mobile and not airborne.

I always thought the integration of the Marine Corps MEU with army airborne rapid deployment forces could make a truly lethal combination; they could put boots on ground and get down range very very quickly.  

As for airborne school slots, I don't know how the army does it (quota allocation), but when I was on the reserve side in the Navy we had opportunities to go from time to time.


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## DA SWO (Dec 1, 2020)

Devildoc said:


> My only complaint is that we have only one airborne division, and the 101st is air mobile and not airborne.
> 
> I always thought the integration of the Marine Corps MEU with army airborne rapid deployment forces could make a truly lethal combination; they could put boots on ground and let down range very very quickly.
> 
> As for airborne school slots, I don't know how the army does it (quota allocation), but when I was on the reserve side in the Navy we had opportunities to go from time to time.


Add two Brigades, one in Italy and one in Alaska.
I wish the Army would cut back on jump school slots and make the course longer (it was a PARATROOPER course at one time).


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## DasBoot (Dec 2, 2020)

Devildoc said:


> My only complaint is that we have only one airborne division, and the 101st is air mobile and not airborne.
> 
> I always thought the integration of the Marine Corps MEU with army airborne rapid deployment forces could make a truly lethal combination; they could put boots on ground and get down range very very quickly.
> 
> As for airborne school slots, I don't know how the army does it (quota allocation), but when I was on the reserve side in the Navy we had opportunities to go from time to time.


We have 3 “divisions” of Airborne. 82nd, 173rd and 4/25 in Alaska. Technically the 173rd and Alaska are Brigades but operate like independent divisions.

ETA: @DA SWO beat me to it.


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## Rando375 (Jan 11, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> reason I went...was because it has a cool badge associated with it



Agreed.


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## 18C4V (Jan 18, 2021)

I used the fuck out of my PFDR JM qualified NCO's to run Airborne Ops and DZSO refresher for GMRS. More credibility then a novice JM doing it. But for practically, in Iraq me and the team CCT had to go survey a bunch of HLZ's for our ISOF Commando's and I taught sling load to some Thai SF guys on a JCS.


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## Ranger Psych (Jan 18, 2021)

CQB said:


> Yep I remember now, there was a tac jump there & reading all the above posts, it looks like the skill will be around for a bit longer.


It gets used... well, about every major conflict, honestly.

Hell, let's just go off of "since 2k" and you have 9 public jumps. 7 of which were 75th.


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## Florida173 (Jan 19, 2021)

Ranger Psych said:


> It gets used... well, about every major conflict, honestly.
> 
> Hell, let's just go off of "since 2k" and you have 9 public jumps. 7 of which were 75th.



Which was the other non 75th one?


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## Ranger Psych (Jan 19, 2021)

Florida173 said:


> Which was the other non 75th one?



My screwup, the 173rd jump was listed twice on the list I was going off of.


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## 18C4V (Jan 19, 2021)

Florida173 said:


> Which was the other non 75th one?


82nd (OEF) 1/10, and 173rd (OIF)


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## Florida173 (Jan 19, 2021)

18C4V said:


> 82nd (OEF) 1/10, and 173rd (OIF)



Think I remember a company of 82nd jumping with 75th in Afghanistan back in I'm guessing early '02.


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## Kraut783 (Jan 19, 2021)

Wasn't that the Kandahar jump? But didn't know 82nd was there.

EDIT: Operation Rhino, October 2001 (?)


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## 18C4V (Jan 19, 2021)

Kraut783 said:


> Wasn't that the Kandahar airfield jump?
> 
> EDIT: Operation Rhino, October 2001.


No, 
Do you have a CAC card? You can access HRC and they have a list of of units, DTG, etc


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## Florida173 (Jan 19, 2021)

I might have been confusing it with the 3/504 jump in 3002 in Afghanistan. It was declassified back in 2014.

Was just a company though. I don't believe anyone of them have been as big as ours though.. at least since '89


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## Kaldak (Jan 19, 2021)

I hear mentions of needing CAC cards, and I wonder if we're going to a place not meant for public discussion. Just be careful everyone.


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## Florida173 (Jan 19, 2021)

Kaldak said:


> I hear mentions of needing CAC cards, and I wonder if we're going to a place not meant for public discussion. Just be careful everyone.



No. It's just based on awards and Human Resources.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 19, 2021)

Kaldak said:


> I hear mentions of needing CAC cards, and I wonder if we're going to a place not meant for public discussion. Just be careful everyone.


I think we're going to be OK brother, there's a lot that's CAC-card accessible that's freely releasable to the public.  I don't think anything about what's been discussed so far is going to wander into FOUO or whatever we're calling it now.


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## Kraut783 (Jan 19, 2021)

There is a paper from the Combat Studies Institute Press US Army Combined Arms Center Fort Leavenworth, KS about OEF operations from 2001 to 2005.

https://history.army.mil/html/bookshelves/resmat/GWOT/DifferentKindofWar.pdf


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## DA SWO (Jan 19, 2021)

Florida173 said:


> Which was the other non 75th one?


173rd and 82nd, plus AF jumps (PJ HALO into the minefield early on).


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## Florida173 (Jan 19, 2021)

When we jumped into Bashur, we had folks that hadn't jumped in a like a decade. I had a surgeon next to me that I think hadn't jumped since probably the 80s, I ended switching to be in front of him... All that being said.. I didn't jump again for over 5 years when I transitioned to the SOF side. After less than a 10 minute pre-jump, I jumped my first ramp and steerable... no issues. 

An argument could maybe be made that we don't need to keep people qualified for airborne, but train more in it. Maybe rotate units every 5 years or something.. i dunno

I would get rid of other bullshit badge courses. Get rid of Air Assault and just give more people the 2 week sling loading course. As far as Pathfinder, we'd send our logistics folks.. but you can train up on CARP/VIRS and any other DZSO abilities without having to go through a course. Any actual operation is inherently joint and we have a variety of options. We had CCT and TACP with us


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 19, 2021)

I never went to Air Assault School...but I did several Air Assaults in training.  Air Assaults are a METL task for Stryker units, god only knows why.


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## Florida173 (Jan 19, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> I never went to Air Assault School...but I did several Air Assaults in training.  Air Assaults are a METL task for Stryker units, god only knows why.



When you say air assault, do you mean just a helicopter insertion or a sling loading operation?


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 20, 2021)

Of the three training missions I did that were called "Air Assaults" only one involved a sling load operation.

On a separate exercise, there was Stryker Battalion that executed I guess an "Air Insertion." We had to do route reconnaissance for them, because they definitely didn't sling load an entire BN of Strykers (they drove them). Their Air Assault METL task went green on the Division metrics following that.
*oh, yeah I was definitely up for 120 hours straight, good times. 😬👍🤠


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## Marauder06 (Jan 20, 2021)

I was an infantry platoon leader in the 101st for three years.  I rappelled out of a helicopter exactly zero times during that period.

Now that I think about it, I've rappelled from a helicopter zero times in my entire life. I did Air Assault at Fort Drum in the fall of 1994 or so, and the weather was so bad that all of our attempts at helo rappel were cancelled. I guess it's not a graduation requirement.

I always thought that Air Assault was probably two Sergeants' Time training sessions crammed into ten days. But hey, I got another cool badge out of it...

That brings me to another thought about schools like Pathfinder, Air Assault, and Airborne.  It's hard to compare tangible costs (time, money, manpower, injuries) of the course with intangibles (morale, esprit, recruiting, retention).  I think Airborne in particular should stick around for the prestige and motivation it affords.  But again, I have never done a thoughtful cost/benefit analyis.


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## Devildoc (Jan 20, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> I was an infantry platoon leader in the 101st for three years.  I rappelled out of a helicopter exactly zero times during that period.
> 
> Now that I think about it, I've rappelled from a helicopter zero times in my entire life. I did Air Assault at Fort Drum in the fall of 1994 or so, and the weather was so bad that all of our attempts at helo rappel were cancelled. I guess it's not a graduation requirement.
> 
> ...



In the Navy, both active and reserve, they dangle all sorts of courses and classes from all branches for retention.  I got to rappel out of helos but I didn't get any badges for it.  That would have been cool.

I think (true for all branches and schools) can look at the courses from a point of time/money/manpower, etc.  One of our Marines said airborne was three days of training crammed into three weeks.


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## Florida173 (Jan 20, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> I was an infantry platoon leader in the 101st for three years.  I rappelled out of a helicopter exactly zero times during that period.
> 
> Now that I think about it, I've rappelled from a helicopter zero times in my entire life. I did Air Assault at Fort Drum in the fall of 1994 or so, and the weather was so bad that all of our attempts at helo rappel were cancelled. I guess it's not a graduation requirement.
> 
> ...



But did you ever do field sanitation? because that course may not be as prestigious, but it is as important, or more, than the others


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 20, 2021)

Florida173 said:


> But did you ever do field sanitation? because that course may not be as prestigious, but it is as important, or more, than the others


Field San, actual skillz!


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