# Q-Course now to include MFF



## goon175 (Oct 5, 2012)

See the link below. SF has a lot of folks, I'm wondering how easy it will be to keep everyone proficient?

http://www.army.mil/article/88636/


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## Worldweaver (Oct 5, 2012)

Wow, great incentive for new prospects


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## Lefty375 (Oct 5, 2012)

Wow, pretty awesome.


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## 18C4V (Oct 5, 2012)

goon175 said:


> See the link below. SF has a lot of folks, I'm wondering how easy it will be to keep everyone proficient?
> 
> http://www.army.mil/article/88636/


 
Depends on what you mean by proficient and current. But I get what you're trying to say. My answer speaking as a MFF 18Z is that it's very difficult to maintain without increasing the number of MFF JM and MFF JM ATIC slots. Without those two critical skill sets, proficiency is dead in the waters.


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## txpj007 (Oct 5, 2012)

Thats great news for the SF community.  Im curious how the MFF school is going to adapt to the increased workload. i.e. instructors, number of classes a year as well as continuing to support training other services.  Just my two cents but i could see the AF standing up its own MFF school now just like we did with the combat dive course.


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## goon175 (Oct 6, 2012)

I wasn't even so much getting at number of JM's, just the logistics of it all. Getting the aircraft, maintaining that amount of 'chutes on top of the SL ones, fitting both SL and MFF jumps into the training schedule, etc. I know that where there is a will, there is a way, so I guess we will see where this goes. As some said above, it will definately be another thing to boost recruitment at the bare minimum.


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## x SF med (Oct 6, 2012)

the idiots wanting to make this happen are stupider than brand new privates.......  you nailed it with "what about the logistics" part........  and the cost of having enough FF chutes, o2 bottles, yadayadayada........  and as 18C4V said.... JM, ATIC slots, proficiency and currency?  

Yeah, cool idea......  will it actually happen with the impending socialist demilitarization, errr, budget cuts.......  NO.


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## TLDR20 (Oct 6, 2012)

This has been in the works for a long time, I think it is a great idea.


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## 18C4V (Oct 6, 2012)

I disagree with the current plan and fielding. Good idea, but no plan to implement it fair and equitiable AND able to sustain the current MFF Teams without taking resources away. Each bn has 36 rigs, 36 O2 masks, 36 02 bottles, 36 PDB's, 36 altimeters, pretty much sets of 36, and that's provided that all the stuff is up and working. If they get more equipment, the bn riggers will need to increase the number of riggers to maintain the equipment and to help support the more frequent slick MFF jumps that everyone will want to do (provided that MFF JM's are available).

What I see happening is guys will want to strap hang with my ODA on the very very few times we just do slick jumps or pull me and my other MFF JM from doing team stuff to do MFF JM duties.

I've seen the current fielding plan and it looks pretty ambitious just to send guys though. Maintaining that skill set was not even brought up.

SWC wants to do something smart? send everyone to SFARTAETC. I remember talking to old timers who say that SOT the precursor to SFARTAETC that guys could go to SOT regardless of upcoming assignements to a CIF. I remember when SERE was not part of the pipeline and now it is and there are still guys (E-7's, E-8's and E-9's) who I personally know who still haven't gone, but want to go but can't get s slot.

But when it's all said and done. IGM!!!!


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## AWP (Oct 6, 2012)

18C4V said:


> I've seen the current fielding plan and it looks pretty ambitious just to send guys though. Maintaining that skill set was not even brought up.
> 
> SWC wants to do something smart? send everyone to SFARTAETC. I remember talking to old timers who say that SOT the precursor to SFARTAETC that guys could go to SOT regardless of upcoming assignements to a CIF. I remember when SERE was not part of the pipeline and now it is and there are still guys (E-7's, E-8's and E-9's) who I personally know who still haven't gone, but want to go but can't get s slot.
> 
> But when it's all said and done. IGM!!!!


 
And as a Guard guy, imagine trying to keep every ODA/ 18 Series in a BN and Group HHC current, proficiency is another can of worms altogether. I also wonder if they've considered the small number of, but huge impact to the mission, increase in riggers who will need to go to the course. One plus at least is that will provide enough JM's to the BSC/ HHD types to stay current without taking away from the ODA's. Riggers will either have to more or less double in size or at least add 2-3 and make every single one of them MFF qualified...which numbers-wise would be like putting another ODA through the school. Then you'll have the added "butt hurt" of riggers going to school BEFORE the ODA's have a shot, because they (Teams) will need them (riggers) to support their MFF ops.

This is an expensive proposition just from the gear necessary, much less airframes. I wonder if everyone's thought this through?


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## x SF med (Oct 6, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> ...
> This is an expensive proposition just from the gear necessary, much less airframes. I wonder if everyone's thought this through?


 
No, but the Army will then want to send everybody through SFUWO too.... because the Navy does, and PJs do........  It's a specialized infil method, spend the $$$ on the overall mission capabilities of SF, not the friggin bling...  once you are on the ground in country, you're walking or in a friggin uparmored vehicle anymore anyway,  more language training and extra-mission training  would be a better force multiplier and bang for the buck.

MOO, YMMV.


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## 0699 (Oct 6, 2012)

Color me ignorant because I really don't know the answer... Why is the Army looking at doing this? Is there a strategic or tactical capabilty that is missing?



Worldweaver said:


> Wow, great incentive for new prospects


 
If this is the only reason...


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## 18C4V (Oct 6, 2012)

Freefalling,
In order to do rigger check's on the MC-4's, riggers have to be MFF Qualfiied, that changed happened last year. We still have riggers who still need to go to MFF PC in order to meet that requirement.


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## Brian1/75 (Oct 6, 2012)

I'm thinking they don't really care about maintaining proficiency. I'm not really sure what the thinking is for this, but if the Army wants to front the cost of getting an A license for everybody in SF, I'm not complaining.


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## AWP (Oct 6, 2012)

18C4V said:


> Freefalling,
> In order to do rigger check's on the MC-4's, riggers have to be MFF Qualfiied, that changed happened last year. We still have riggers who still need to go to MFF PC in order to meet that requirement.


 
I have the feeling we'll experiencing a disconnect somewhere, my apologies if I wasn't clear earlier.

We had two W8 slots for the riggers when I was in a bazillion years ago to pack and handle the MFF rigs and that's what I'm basing my comments on. Unless the teams are packing their own mains now, the riggers did everything on them back then, hence my comments. To support a gain of...what, 120-ish FF rigs per BN, you'll need to send more riggers to the school. Plus with the increase on MFF ops, you'll need more MFF qualified riggers on hand for those jumps.

I'm obviously pro-MFF and think this would be great if it could be pulled off. I've long thought that MFF was underutilized in the GWOT, particularly over here. Putting every 18 series through MFF (chamber rides, medical including those who need eye surgery to pass the flight physical, training) on top of all of the a/c and equipment needed to support this is huge. We may have the money to buy the car, but can we afford the gas to keep it running?


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## 18C4V (Oct 6, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> I have the feeling we'll experiencing a disconnect somewhere, my apologies if I wasn't clear earlier.
> 
> We had two W8 slots for the riggers when I was in a bazillion years ago to pack and handle the MFF rigs and that's what I'm basing my comments on. Unless the teams are packing their own mains now, the riggers did everything on them back then, hence my comments. To support a gain of...what, 120-ish FF rigs per BN, you'll need to send more riggers to the school. Plus with the increase on MFF ops, you'll need more MFF qualified riggers on hand for those jumps.
> 
> I'm obviously pro-MFF and think this would be great if it could be pulled off. I've long thought that MFF was underutilized in the GWOT, particularly over here. Putting every 18 series through MFF (chamber rides, medical including those who need eye surgery to pass the flight physical, training) on top of all of the a/c and equipment needed to support this is huge. We may have the money to buy the car, but can we afford the gas to keep it running?


 
No sweat, lets see if I can explain more in depth with the rigger issues. During MFF Recerts or sustainments such as Archangel, the guys pack their own rigs  under the supervision of riggers (who are MFF qualified) with the book ratio of 1/4 which is one rigger to four jumpers or 3 riggers per a 12 man team. Each guy will jump and pack about 30 times. Can you do it with less and has it been done?  Sure, but obviously that's a risk assessment on the CMR that the Primary MFF JM and Abn Commander have to explain if something goes wrong, especially if a cut away occurs and a guy gets hurt.

During a non MFF recert, we'll jump 2 or 3 rigs per man, and avoid the issue of repacking our own chutes due to blade time restraints and usually we'll have two riggers on hand with one of them being MFF (trying to chase jumps for thier MFF JM).

Hope this is a little more clearer.


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## 18C4V (Oct 6, 2012)

Brian1/75 said:


> I'm thinking they don't really care about maintaining proficiency. I'm not really sure what the thinking is for this, but if the Army wants to front the cost of getting an A license for everybody in SF, I'm not complaining.


 
Yup...All you have to do afterwards is take the A license test, do the check dive, and become a member of USPA. Our team tradition is that we'll try to jump with the guy making his check dive. Last time, we had 5 guys jumping first and then our jr medic jumping out to do his check dive for his A license. Almost all of  my guys either have A or B licenses.


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## Cyberchp (Oct 7, 2012)

18C4V said:


> What I see happening is guys will want to strap hang with my ODA on the very very few times we just do slick jumps or pull me and my other MFF JM from doing team stuff to do MFF JM duties.


 
Straphangers still have to jump dragons right?


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## goon175 (Oct 7, 2012)

> This is what they did for the BUD/S and SQT pipeline a few years back. It's all pipeline now at Otay, so every guy shows up to a Team being MFF qualified. They do static line in 5 days!!! Oh the time wasted at Ft. Benning for only 5 static line jumps and a lead sled at the end...lol


 
NSW is a lot smaller than SF, and you don't have to "share" your jump school, so I imagine it is less of a logistics issue for you guys. I do like how you guys combined SL and MFF though. That makes a lot of sense to me, and is a direction I wish USASOC would move towards.

Really, my main issue with this is that I don't think there is a "NEED" out there for every single guy in SF to be MFF qualified. Honestly, NSW could probably get by with designated MFF platoons just fine. Their are just not enough instances that come up where that will be the primary means of infil, and when they do come up, I'm sure their is a MFF team available from one of the groups. Do I think it would be cool as shit if every platoon in the 75th was MFF? Hell yeah. But is there a need for anyone outside of the recce/STP guys? Nope. As some said above, I would rather see the time/money used on more mission essential stuff. Like getting every single guy NREMT-I qual'd.


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## HALO99 (Oct 7, 2012)

This means an increase of MFF jump support elements.  A very critical part of MFF.  Good skill sets and experience for these additional "support elements" must be established first before sending more batches of people to MFF school.   Just my opinion, based on a mistake we made before. Paid for it the hard way.


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## Lycurgus (Oct 7, 2012)

Great point about the size issue.  When it comes down to actual operators, the number is even smaller.  The SQT classes do not have to share the jump school, but when they send the older SEALs we have to compete for a spot which doesn't make a lot of sense.  In my class we had Navy EOD, Air Force PJs, and even an Army weather person, among others.  We have a huge problem with logistics as well, we do not have the support we need to maintain a high level of proficiency, especially in regards to combat equipment jumps.


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## Brian1/75 (Oct 7, 2012)

Lycurgus said:


> Great point about the size issue. When it comes down to actual operators, the number is even smaller. The SQT classes do not have to share the jump school, but when they send the older SEALs we have to compete for a spot which doesn't make a lot of sense. In my class we had Navy EOD, Air Force PJs, and even an Army weather person, among others. We have a huge problem with logistics as well, we do not have the support we need to maintain a high level of proficiency, especially in regards to combat equipment jumps.


Are there still a decent amount of guys in the Teams not qualified?


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## Lycurgus (Oct 7, 2012)

No, for an operator not to be MFF qualified now would be extremely rare.


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## freeflyguy (Mar 1, 2014)

If this gets implemented, it'll be way down the road. I'll honestly be surprised to see it happen. We have a guy in our company who used to be an instructor out there and they had 3 guys go en route from the Q in 2012, and 2 of them failed out. When I went through the course last year they were no longer sending guys from the Q. There's a million issues that go along with trying to qualify every guy, the first of which is the shortage of instructors out there. They're running pretty tight right now with the number they have. How are they going to plus up enough to start sending all the guys that are going through the Q, and qualify all the tabbed guys that still need it?


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## freeflyguy (Mar 1, 2014)

And I just realized that the last post was a year and a half ago. Goes to show how much push back this whole plan is taking.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 1, 2014)

When I left SWCS last May they were still planning on implementing this. They were building a new barracks and chow hall at Yuma to facilitate this expansion. I don't know what happened to that.


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## DA SWO (Mar 1, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> When I left SWCS last May they were still planning on implementing this. They were building a new barracks and chow hall at Yuma to facilitate this expansion. I don't know what happened to that.


Sequestration.

I wonder what the AF/Navy pass rates are?


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## TLDR20 (Mar 1, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Sequestration.
> 
> I wonder what the AF/Navy pass rates are?



The Navy has their own school now.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 1, 2014)

They also hired a bunch of GS-11's to be instructors out there. So I doubt this is just going away.


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## DA SWO (Mar 1, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> They also hired a bunch of GS-11's to be instructors out there. So I doubt this is just going away.


???

I said I was curious what the pass rates are?  Previous poster sais SF had a 2/3 failure rate for guys going as part of the SFQC.

AF has two career fields requireing MFF completion, so I was curious if the AF and Navy had a 2/3rds failure rate..


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## Brill (Mar 1, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> They also hired a bunch of GS-11's to be instructors out there. So I doubt this is just going away.



That's some fine pay for AZ! Teaching folks to fly AND getting a fat check too! Good on 'em!


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## TLDR20 (Mar 1, 2014)

SOWT said:


> ???
> 
> I said I was curious what the pass rates are?  Previous poster sais SF had a 2/3 failure rate for guys going as part of the SFQC.
> 
> AF has two career fields requireing MFF completion, so I was curious if the AF and Navy had a 2/3rds failure rate..


Well that quote  wasn't to you. So it makes sense that you are confused.


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## Teufel (Mar 2, 2014)

x SF med said:


> the idiots wanting to make this happen are stupider than brand new privates.......  you nailed it with "what about the logistics" part........  and the cost of having enough FF chutes, o2 bottles, yadayadayada........  and as 18C4V said.... JM, ATIC slots, proficiency and currency?
> 
> Yeah, cool idea......  will it actually happen with the impending socialist demilitarization, errr, budget cuts.......  NO.



Exactly.  Where is the demand signal for this?  I'm all about guys going to freefall but does every SF guy need to be a freefaller?  Especially in this era of budget cuts?  I run into the same thing at recon.  Going to freefall school makes you a qualified freefall parachutists, not a proficient one.  Are they going to run everyone through freefall packages now?  I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze on this one.


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## DA SWO (Mar 2, 2014)

Teufel said:


> Exactly.  Where is the demand signal for this?  I'm all about guys going to freefall but does every SF guy need to be a freefaller?  Especially in this era of budget cuts?  I run into the same thing at recon.  Going to freefall school makes you a qualified freefall parachutists, not a proficient one.  Are they going to run everyone through freefall packages now?  I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze on this one.


The AF Training system is broke, which is why FF/SCUBA are part of the CCT pipeline.

CCT could probably reduce the number of FF/SCUBA dudes with minimal impact.


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## 0699 (Mar 3, 2014)

Teufel said:


> Exactly.  Where is the demand signal for this?  I'm all about guys going to freefall but does every SF guy need to be a freefaller?  Especially in this era of budget cuts?  I run into the same thing at recon.  *Going to freefall school makes you a qualified freefall parachutists, not a proficient one*.  Are they going to run everyone through freefall packages now?  I'm not sure the juice is worth the squeeze on this one.


 
Ugh.  Major pet-peeve, no matter the skill.  Just because you took a course three years ago doesn't mean you are an expert.  Hell, unless you are constantly practicing and validating that skill, you probably can't even perform to standard. :wall:


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## freeflyguy (Mar 4, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> When I left SWCS last May they were still planning on implementing this. They were building a new barracks and chow hall at Yuma to facilitate this expansion. I don't know what happened to that.



I was under the impression that they were doing that in order to save money on the guys heading there now. I know they just got the wind-tunnel up and running so they can cut out Ft Bragg from it all together.


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## swimr235 (Mar 4, 2014)

Interesting. From an outsiders perspective it seems a little over kill to have everyone MFF qualed, no? This is assuming I know what Im talking about, which I dont really. But if im correct MFF includes HALO and HAHO? One of thse being a clandestine method for insertion, right? Its funny, SOFREPs latest podcast with Jack Murphy had a question very similar to this and he made a very good argument against having everyone MFF qualed, SCUBA qualed and Mountain qualed. He went on to say that maintaining quals for all of these takes away from training that could be better used somewhere else. Once again, im an outsider without much knowledge on the matter, outside of what I have learned on here and from freinds and acquaintances that have been in this environment.


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## 18C4V (Mar 5, 2014)

One of my guys graduated last Friday at YPG from MFF, his class was the last one that reported to Bragg. The class after his reported to YPG. My two cents are the same ones I made a few years ago in this thread.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 5, 2014)

swimr235 said:


> Interesting. From an outsiders perspective it seems a little over kill to have everyone MFF qualed, no? This is assuming I know what Im talking about, which I dont really. But if im correct MFF includes HALO and HAHO? One of thse being a clandestine method for insertion, right? Its funny, SOFREPs latest podcast with Jack Murphy had a question very similar to this and he made a very good argument against having everyone MFF qualed, SCUBA qualed and Mountain qualed. He went on to say that maintaining quals for all of these takes away from training that could be better used somewhere else. Once again, im an outsider without much knowledge on the matter, outside of what I have learned on here and from freinds and acquaintances that have been in this environment.



MFF in general is simply an insertion technique. It's the first few hours of a mission of indeterminate length, just like regular military parachuting. High/Low opening just changes up where the aircraft you're departing can be at in relation to your desired landing point on the ground.


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## swimr235 (Mar 5, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> MFF in general is simply an insertion technique. It's the first few hours of a mission of indeterminate length, just like regular military parachuting. High/Low opening just changes up where the aircraft you're departing can be at in relation to your desired landing point on the ground.


 

Thank for explaining that. It does make things much clearer to me from your stand point. I appreciate your insight as someone with experience. Thanks.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 5, 2014)

Just to clarify, I don't have experience with Military Freefall specifically since I wasn't that good/lucky/privileged in duty position, but it's an airborne operation. Not much differs. 

800 feet or 8000+ feet: 
you jump out
you fall
your parachute opens hopefully
you land hopefully in a somewhat controlled manner

then everything else that you planned for goes on.  It's the beginning (and can sometimes set the tone for the rest) of the mission that you're there to do. Delivery of assets into otherwise denied terrain with a reduction of risk to the delivery assets depending on the type of airborne operation.  It's also probably the largest pain of the ass considering that it's 4-ish hours on a good day of lead up to a 4+ (depending on MFF or static line) second snapshot of a mission that lasts however long as necessary. Most SL Airborne ops end up being less than 2.4% of the entire operations time duration at the MOST, not counting flight time since either way you've got to GET there, landing or jumping.


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## freeflyguy (Sep 5, 2014)

18C4V said:


> Depends on what you mean by proficient and current. But I get what you're trying to say. My answer speaking as a MFF 18Z is that it's very difficult to maintain without increasing the number of MFF JM and MFF JM ATIC slots. Without those two critical skill sets, proficiency is dead in the waters.



Yep. There's no use in being qualified if you're not proficient AND current. It sounds cool and all, but I think it's going to unfortunately increase the major injuries and fatalities of some really great guys. They're already short on instructors so I have no idea how they're going to keep up with the increase in students and then keep those new jumpers proficient.


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## HALO99 (Sep 6, 2014)

freeflyguy said:


> Yep. There's no use in being qualified if you're not proficient AND current. It sounds cool and all, but I think it's going to unfortunately increase the major injuries and fatalities of some really great guys. They're already short on instructors so I have no idea how they're going to keep up with the increase in students and then keep those new jumpers proficient.



Spot on ffg.  Super agree.


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