# Conviction of "Marine Peeing on Dead Taliban" Tossed Out



## Marauder06 (Nov 9, 2017)

...because of negative command influence:

A military appeals court has overturned the conviction of a former Marine Corps scout sniper involved in desecrating the bodies of enemy fighters in Afghanistan in 2011, finding that the actions of the service's top officer at the time tainted the case.

Court Overturns Conviction of Marine Who Urinated on Taliban Corpses | Military.com


----------



## Kakashi66223 (Nov 9, 2017)

What's this world coming to when in war you can't relieve your bladder. Maybe he was just marking his territory?


----------



## RackMaster (Nov 9, 2017)

Kakashi66223 said:


> What's this world coming to when in war you can't relieve your bladder. Maybe he was just marking his territory?



When you gotta go, you gotta go.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 9, 2017)

Fuck Amos. He was an embarrassment to the Corps. All these convictions need to be overturned. Too late for Richards, who died at 28, and no doubt his conviction contributed to his demise.

If this were WW2 and American Soldiers or Marines were filmed pissing on dead Japanese or Nazi soldiers, would they have been arrested, tried and convicted? Fuck no. They would never have to buy another drink.


----------



## pardus (Nov 9, 2017)

The Marines acted like retards, by doing what they did, filming it, and releasing it. In this conflict they are just hurting their own side.
Now that said, Amos is a prick for doing what he did. Not only should all of the convictions be overturned, but Amos and his cohort/s should be held accountable for their actions.


----------



## Muppet (Nov 9, 2017)

See if I give a fuck for dead tali. The Marines were dumb for filming it but like others said, if this were other wars,  would have it mattered? Just more fucking PC nonsense. 

M.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 9, 2017)

pardus said:


> The Marines acted like retards, by doing what they did, filming it, and releasing it. In this conflict they are just hurting their own side.
> Now that said, Amos is a prick for doing what he did. Not only should all of the convictions be overturned, but Amos and his cohort/s should be held accountable for their actions.



Stupid, yes, but they didn't deserve what they got.


----------



## Teufel (Nov 9, 2017)

That video did immeasurable damage to the COIN effort in both Afghanistan and Iraq. It also significantly increased insurgent recruiting and attacks on friendly forces. 

What do you gain by desecrating the dead? You already lose a little bit of yourself when you kill another human being. It’s important to maintain your humanity and steady your moral compass lest you be lost to the savage nature of war.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 9, 2017)

I teach my cadets that you can go far in the military, and in life, by simply not being a dick (jerk).  Being on the bodies of the men you just killed--and filming it and putting it out there for the world to see--was a total dick move.  It was irresponsible and ill-disciplined.  It reflected poorly on the Corps, our military, and our country.

That said, I think Gen. Amos handled the situation extremely poorly.  This may have been resolvable with NJP.  Going the whole court-martial route was a bit extreme IMO.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 10, 2017)

I'm not defending what these guys did, but after you lose your first few teammates a different mindset takes over. It gets personal. Contempt for the enemy grows, the need to extract some payback. And tripwire or pressure device detonations only intensify it because guys get maimed and there's nobody around to shoot back at. And eventually after you kill enough of them, and haul enough of your wounded brothers on ponchos to the helo, you've developed a full-blown case of not giving too much of a fuck for the big picture. Dark humor with regard to EKIAs is just one kind of release, and very common in Marines. 

My company CO had an Ear Board. (Not real ears). Just a list of each Combined Action Platoon in the company, and next to it, a silhouette of a human ear for every EKIA that CAP killed that month. And at the end of the month, the unit with the most kills got a case of beer. 

Different war, different time, I know. But think how that would play out today if it went public. And we were involved very heavily in COIN. 

I'm just saying, after a time, your attitude toward your enemy becomes very cold and callous and would shock the average civilian...and remains one of the disconnects between returning combat veterans and the society they were brought up in.


----------



## Topkick (Nov 10, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> I'm not defending what these guys did, but after you lose your first few teammates a different mindset takes over. It gets personal. Contempt for the enemy grows, the need to extract some payback. And tripwire or pressure device detonations only intensify it because guys get maimed and there's nobody around to shoot back at. And eventually after you kill enough of them, and haul enough of your wounded brothers on ponchos to the helo, you've developed a full-blown case of not giving too much of a fuck for the big picture. Dark humor with regard to EKIAs is just one kind of release, and very common in Marines.
> 
> My company CO had an Ear Board. (Not real ears). Just a list of each Combined Action Platoon in the company, and next to it, a silhouette of a human ear for every EKIA that CAP killed that month. And at the end of the month, the unit with the most kills got a case of beer.
> 
> ...




Well said, then like with everything else, media has to bring the shock and awe to the public.


----------



## Teufel (Nov 10, 2017)

The video had an adverse impact on COIN because of the internet. The military used to be able to control the narrative of their operations. That’s not true anymore. A story can be told with a cell phone camera and spread globally within seconds. 

Secondly, it is imperative for soldiers at war to maintain their humanity. I understand what you are saying and the feelings of pain you felt. It’s easy to unleash that on the enemy. It’s also easy to unleash that anger on the civilian population. We saw that happen in Vietnam and we saw that happen in Iraq.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 10, 2017)

Teufel said:


> A story can be told with a cell phone camera and spread globally within seconds



Sir,

I am often surprised that the military has not figured out a way to somehow ban Cel-phone devices when in the field; especially on combat ops. 

The camera and video distractions aside, nearly every smart phone has GPS. It would be pretty simple to follow a unit’s exact location if you know a member’s “find my phone” passcode.

To add - Happy Birthday, sir.


----------



## Il Duce (Nov 10, 2017)

It's interesting to read this thread with the Bergdahl thread going on.  Soldier/Marine violates UCMJ with operational and strategic consequences - should be responsible on one, shouldn't on the other.  Senior leader says prejudicial things about how the crime should be pursued - in one case he's a piece of shit who shouldn't be in charge of anything, on the other 'he shouldn't have said it but I understand where he's coming from.'  On one there's no excuse for what he did, no background or misunderstanding that justifies his violations and fuck his state of mind - on the other 'PC culture has run amok and I can totally understand why they did what they did.'

To be clear, totally different crimes and all of us are going to have different filters for different things.  Context and judgment are always huge - hence UCMJ is administered by people no 'law-o-tron' AIs with textbook answers.  Still, I think it's worth reflecting how the narratives we build within our own minds and within our service/military cultures towards making heroes and villains in any story affect our judgment and discussions.


----------



## 8482farm (Nov 10, 2017)

Muppet said:


> See if I give a fuck for dead tali. The Marines were dumb for filming it but like others said, if this were other wars,  would have it mattered? Just more fucking PC nonsense.
> 
> M.



I, also, don't give a fuck about tali bodies. But you have to take into account the times we're in. Progressive ideologies have developed further throughout the years to where the "ZF or Stacking Bodies" culture is not appropriate in some situations like when trying to build rapport with locals . Would we have given a fuck in WW2? Probably not. But it's not WW2. I think it was completely inappropriate for pissing on the bodies in the first place. Let alone, filming it and uploading it to fucking Youtube.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Nov 10, 2017)

.


----------



## 8482farm (Nov 10, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> IDK, I think the soldiers in combat with an enemy who have already killed civilians in NYC, can things happen? Combatants who had killed my friends and fellow soldiers might bring out the impulse to literally POY. I'll leave that to the soldiers in combat at that time, and not judge their post-combat actions. Just don't take too many pictures/vids of it.



I agree. I just think it was inappropriate because of the negative effects it can have with building relations. I'm not offended by their actions though. But being tactical AND tactful can prove to be beneficial.


----------



## Muppet (Nov 10, 2017)

8482farm said:


> I, also, don't give a fuck about tali bodies. But you have to take into account the times we're in. Progressive ideologies have developed further throughout the years to where the "ZF or Stacking Bodies" culture is not appropriate in some situations like when trying to build rapport with locals . Would we have given a fuck in WW2? Probably not. But it's not WW2. I think it was completely inappropriate for pissing on the bodies in the first place. Let alone, filming it and uploading it to fucking Youtube.



I see your point, and I agree. What they did was retarded. Would I have done it? No, I say that now, who knows then. With that said. shit happens. 

M.


----------



## RackMaster (Nov 10, 2017)

It's stories like this that remind me why I don't have many pictures of my service. Not that there was instances like this but definitely some that I don't need being drug up.


----------



## Teufel (Nov 10, 2017)

Desecrating the dead doesn’t rob them of their humanity, it robs you of yours.


----------



## digrar (Nov 10, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Sir,
> 
> I am often surprised that the military has not figured out a way to somehow ban Cel-phone devices when in the field; especially on combat ops.



We were carrying digital cameras before phones really kicked off, every sniper team and recon patrol had at least one, I'm pretty sure the rifle platoons and maybe even the rifle sections had them too. If social media had been a thing back then, I'm sure we would have found a way to compromise ourselves with photographic evidence.


----------



## Teufel (Nov 10, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Sir,
> 
> I am often surprised that the military has not figured out a way to somehow ban Cel-phone devices when in the field; especially on combat ops.
> 
> ...


Marines are already not supposed to bring cell phones on operations. Or pee on the dead. Regulations aren’t always enforced.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 10, 2017)

War can deprive you of your humanity.

We hunted our enemies, killing them was good, even competitive. On days when we killed them and none of us were hurt...it was a good day. I don't know too many of my brothers--regardless of rank--who killed and didn't lose part of their humanity in the process of becoming efficient killers. It is to their credit that they found that humanity again, some at long last after many struggles.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Nov 10, 2017)

.


----------



## Teufel (Nov 10, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> War can deprive you of your humanity.
> 
> We hunted our enemies, killing them was good, even competitive. On days when we killed them and none of us were hurt...it was a good day. I don't know too many of my brothers--regardless of rank--who killed and didn't lose part of their humanity in the process of becoming efficient killers. It is to their credit that they found that humanity again, some at long last after many struggles.


This is exactly my point. You lose a little bit of yourself when you kill someone. I am not unfamiliar with losing good Marines or putting evil men to the sword. There are lines that should not be crossed. Marines will pay the price for violating these rules up front or decades later. 

I know that Vietnam was a different war in a different time. We learned from that experience and adjusted the way we do business. I appreciate everything you’ve done. Your generation paved the way for mine. Semper Fidelis


----------



## DC (Nov 10, 2017)

So I wouldn’t have case being peed on sitting standby? The horror


----------



## Frank S. (Nov 11, 2017)




----------



## Marine0311 (Nov 11, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> War can deprive you of your humanity.
> 
> We hunted our enemies, killing them was good, even competitive. On days when we killed them and none of us were hurt...it was a good day. I don't know too many of my brothers--regardless of rank--who killed and didn't lose part of their humanity in the process of becoming efficient killers. It is to their credit that they found that humanity again, some at long last after many struggles.



Thank you for paving the way for grunts like me.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Nov 12, 2017)

th.


----------

