# Trayvon Martin Case



## JBS (Mar 25, 2012)

This is the picture we've all seen of the victim, Martin (Left) and the "racist" shooter, Zimmerman.

Martin is the innocent little boy and Zimmerman is sporting County Orange.


The media has whipped the American public into a foaming frenzy, driven right along racial lines with pictorials like this:










But photos can often be misleading. Couldn't this story just as easily been spun a little differently by the media establishment? (I didn't make the poster below, but thought the photos were interesting and a great illustration of how the minds of the masses can be fed what they want to see).  I also admit I haven't followed the story very closely.  The facts have emerged for me was a youth (age 17) was cutting through people's back yards while wearing a hoodie and got shot.  Unfortunate to me, yet somehow not all that astonishing.


----------



## Ex3 (Mar 25, 2012)

I'm going to copy and paste what I wrote on Sawman's wall:

I don't care what the kid's FB pictures look like. By all accounts, he was unarmed and minding his own business. Martin ran away from him, so why did Zimmerman feel that he was in danger? Zimmerman was a wannabe cop out looking for trouble and he found it. In the past 15 months, he's called 911 46 times. There's something very wrong with that.​


----------



## TH15 (Mar 25, 2012)

I haven't followed this story very closely either, mostly because I can't stomach the fact this case is being used as racial motivation by our whorish media.

I think Bob Knight said it best when he said this while speaking to reporters, "I'm trying to help you young guys in this profession you've chosen that's one or two steps above prostitution."

So far it's all hearsay and 911 calls. The fact "Reverend" Al Sharpton is involved has me skeptical.


----------



## CDG (Mar 25, 2012)

Ex3 said:


> I'm going to copy and paste what I wrote on Sawman's wall:
> 
> I don't care what the kid's FB pictures look like. By all accounts, he was unarmed and minding his own business. Martin ran away from him, so why did Zimmerman feel that he was in danger? Zimmerman was a wannabe cop out looking for trouble and he found it. In the past 15 months, he's called 911 46 times. There's something very wrong with that.​


 
Lol.  Nice.  "I don't care what emerges at this point. I have my mind made up and silly things like photos showing something that I don't want to see aren't going to sway me!"


----------



## DasBoot (Mar 25, 2012)

I think it's absurd for anyone to form an opinion either way at this point. Not all the facts have been released and no one knows exactly what happened that night other than Zimmerman. All of this character assassination going on is BS- and that's for both the shooter and the victim. The picture posted above does nothing to change my opinion of the kid- every 15-18 year old has some kind of picture like that on FB at some time, and calling Zimmerman a "racist" before it's determined if he was attacked (or if he assaulted the kid before a struggle ensued) is jumping the gun.


----------



## Ex3 (Mar 25, 2012)

CDG said:


> Lol. Nice. "I don't care what emerges at this point. I have my mind made up and silly things like photos showing something that I don't want to see aren't going to sway me!"


LOL! My point is any picture is pretty irrelevant unless it's from the site of the crime! I can show you pictures of my son looking a lot like a thug as well as some where he looks like a choir boy, but that doesn't mean that he is either one.  At this point, we DO know that Zimmerman called a suspicious character sighting into the police. He was told not to follow Martin, but he did anyway. Whether or not it was racially motivated remains to be seen.

Having said this, I agree that the media in general bears watching at all times.


----------



## CDG (Mar 25, 2012)

Ex3 said:


> LOL! My point is any picture is pretty irrelevant unless it's from the site of the crime! I can show you pictures of my son looking a lot like a thug as well as some where he looks like a choir boy, but that doesn't mean that he is either one. At this point, we DO know that Zimmerman called a suspicious character sighting into the police. He was told not to follow Martin, but he did anyway. Whether or not it was racially motivated remains to be seen.
> 
> Having said this, I agree that the media in general bears watching at all times.


 
All we know?  That didn't seem to have any bearing in your last post when you called Zimmerman a "wannabe cop looking for trouble".  You went on to say "there's something very worng with that" in regards to the amount of times he called 911, while failing to mention the number of burglaries in the area that would have put anyone on edge.  You seem to have bought into the media bias.  Yet now you want to talk about "all we know"?  If "any picture is pretty irrelevant", then why is every single picture in the media an outdated one showing a much younger Trayvon Martin?  What was your first thought when you saw the pictures?  To say that the pictures are irrelevant is only true in a vacuum.  Pictures sway public opinion, and public opinion in a case like this has the potential to cause major problems.  Jesse Jackson has started talking about how all black people are under attack, and the President even felt the need to comment on this case before the facts are in, saying that "If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon."  How much of that do you think is based on the pictures?  I wonder what people's opinion would be if the "thug" picture was the one being shown instead.  You have no problem casting judgment prematurely onto Zimmerman with nothing to base it on, but a concrete picture showing Trayvon acting like a gangster idiot is irrelevant?


----------



## CDG (Mar 25, 2012)

DasBoot said:


> - every 15-18 year old has some kind of picture like that on FB at some time, .


 
I agree with some of what you said, but this is a bullshit statement.  I know plenty of people who would have never even considered dressing like that in the first place, much less taking a picture of it to post in a venue like FB, no matter what age they were.


----------



## JBS (Mar 25, 2012)

The Black Panthers have put a $1,000,000 bounty on the head of Zimmerman???


----------



## Brill (Mar 25, 2012)

Why would Z be wearing county orange? He wasn't arrested or even detained by the po-po.

How in hell is BP offering a bounty on a man not a hate crime under Federal law? WTF, over.  How is that garbage spewing from his mouth different than the "racist hate speech" that the MSM claimed during the Tea Party protests?


----------



## CDG (Mar 25, 2012)

Hey, Muhammad, you and all your waste of oxygen Black Panther buddies can do something very important here that will help out America a lot.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 25, 2012)

JBS said:


> The Black Panthers have put a $1,000,000 bounty on the head of Zimmerman???


 
But that's not a "hate crime."


----------



## DasBoot (Mar 25, 2012)

CDG said:


> I agree with some of what you said, but this is a bullshit statement.  I know plenty of people who would have never even considered dressing like that in the first place, much less taking a picture of it to post in a venue like FB, no matter what age they were.


It's not bullshit. Apparently you don't know a lot of people under 20. A lot of people- me included- don't put shit like that online. So you're right about that. But for him to post that is not uncommon and in my eyes doesn't saying anything about him other than he's a 17 year old looking to impress girls.


----------



## JBS (Mar 25, 2012)

lindy said:


> Why would Z be wearing county orange? He wasn't arrested or even detained by the po-po.
> 
> How in hell is BP offering a bounty on a man not a hate crime under Federal law? WTF, over.


I did read that Zimmerman had once had a run in with police- that he resisted arrest, and the charges were dropped. Not sure as to the validity of that.

What I do believe is the case has already been defined in the media as a "white racist who shot a poor black kid with Skittles in his pocket."

When I saw the pics, that pretty much matched the article. But then I found out that


a. the shooter is not "white" in the sense of Anglo, but rather is Hispanic (not that it matters so much, but _definitely_ not being addressed in media) This has been portrayed as Black VS. White rather than _minority on minority crime_.

b. Apparently the kid was wearing a hoody at night- certainly not illegal, but this would qualify as "suspicious", which is what Zimmerman reported the youth as.

c. 17 years old is old enough to steal, be a thief, whatever. The age in this case is being bandied around as though he was in elementary school, when in fact 17 is plenty old enough to be a threat even if Zimmerman was 230 (was he 5'4"?).

d. the pictures oddly seem to want to lead the viewers in my opinion. Why would media do that if they were not pushing a point of view?

e. If Zimmerman is a "stalker", why did he call the police first?  Again, not passing judgement, but if you call the cops, at least that is a correct "first" step.

f. When I was 17, I can honestly say I would never have considered putting on a hoody and running through people's back yards.  I grew up in a rough neighborhood, so the expectation was you would probably get a bullet in your ass if you did so.


----------



## CDG (Mar 25, 2012)

lindy said:


> How in hell is BP offering a bounty on a man not a hate crime under Federal law? WTF, over. How is that garbage spewing from his mouth different than the "racist hate speech" that the MSM claimed during the Tea Party protests?


 
Because dude, black people are being murdered all over America.  Apparently they're the only ones, and black people never kill other black people so it's obviously a white guy every time. Can't you see that?  Geez, you've had, like, 400 years to get this right.


----------



## DasBoot (Mar 25, 2012)

JBS said:


> The Black Panthers have put a $1,000,000 bounty on the head of Zimmerman???


What a bunch of retards... Yeah putting a bounty out is really going to do your cause a lot of good


----------



## Ex3 (Mar 25, 2012)

CDG said:


> All we know? That didn't seem to have any bearing in your last post when you called Zimmerman a "wannabe cop looking for trouble". You went on to say "there's something very worng with that" in regards to the amount of times he called 911, while failing to mention the number of burglaries in the area that would have put anyone on edge. You seem to have bought into the media bias. Yet now you want to talk about "all we know"? If "any picture is pretty irrelevant", then why is every single picture in the media an outdated one showing a much younger Trayvon Martin? What was your first thought when you saw the pictures? To say that the pictures are irrelevant is only true in a vacuum. Pictures sway public opinion, and public opinion in a case like this has the potential to cause major problems. Jesse Jackson has started talking about how all black people are under attack, and the President even felt the need to comment on this case before the facts are in, saying that "If I had a son, he would look like Trayvon." How much of that do you think is based on the pictures? I wonder what people's opinion would be if the "thug" picture was the one being shown instead. You have no problem casting judgment prematurely onto Zimmerman with nothing to base it on, but a concrete picture showing Trayvon acting like a gangster idiot is irrelevant?


I haven't bought into anything. I think he should've let the police do their jobs. My son is only a little bit older than Martin was and I shudder to think that some neighborhood watchman could kill him just because he thought he looked 'suspicious'.


----------



## CDG (Mar 25, 2012)

DasBoot said:


> It's not bullshit. Apparently you don't know a lot of people under 20. A lot of people- me included- don't put shit like that online. So you're right about that. But for him to post that is not uncommon and in my eyes doesn't saying anything about him other than he's a 17 year old looking to impress girls.


 
I thought you said "every 15-18 year old"?  Which is it, counselor?  Your eyes need some checking.


----------



## DasBoot (Mar 25, 2012)

CDG said:


> I thought you said "every 15-18 year old"?  Which is it, counselor?  Your eyes need some checking.


Aw so we're nitpicking? Gotcha. Ok I'll rephrase- "most 15-18 year olds do"


----------



## Brill (Mar 25, 2012)

CDG said:


> Because dude, black people are being murdered all over America. Apparently they're the only ones, and black people never kill other black people so it's obviously a white guy every time. Can't you see that? Geez, you've had, like, 400 years to get this right.


 
A review of events at Mississippi State U over the weekend would show that is an inaccurate statement. ;)

"hide your kids, hide your wife..."


----------



## CDG (Mar 25, 2012)

Ex3 said:


> I haven't bought into anything. I think he should've let the police do their jobs. My son is only a little bit older than Martin was and I shudder to think that some neighborhood watchman could kill him just because he thought he looked 'suspicious'.


 
Lol.  Haven't bought into anything?  Your own words reveal the bias you already hold.  Zimmerman claims he was attacked.  What if that is true?  Is it now still his fault because he didn't listen to some 911 dispatcher? Yet you apparently hold the opinion that he was a wannabe cop who was looking for trouble that went out and killed some kid for no other reason than suspicion.  Maybe he did, maybe he didn't.  The media has done its best to ensure everyone already "knows" what happened before we get the facts though.  It appears a lot of people are buying into that.


----------



## JBS (Mar 25, 2012)

DasBoot said:


> Aw so we're nitpicking? Gotcha. Ok I'll rephrase- "most 15-18 year olds do"


I've gotta say, DB, my kids will not wear thug outfits and pose like homos (not intended as a slur to actual gays) on Facebook.

Of course, posing one way or the other is- as I think Ex3 is trying to say- is in no way a reflection of guilt or even of being a bad kid.

But this isn't the point. The point is the media has overwhelmingly decided to paint a picture for all of us so we can get fired up and want to kill each other. It's shit-stirring, is it not? Maybe we can stop choking each other and posting bounties, and start demanding that the media do a better job?


----------



## CDG (Mar 25, 2012)

DasBoot said:


> Aw so we're nitpicking? Gotcha. Ok I'll rephrase- "most 15-18 year olds do"


 
Lol.  Nope.  Feel free to post whatever you want with qualitiative words like "every", "all", etc.   Must be one of those under 20 things where you think you shouldn't be held accountable for making a statement without anything to back it up.


----------



## DasBoot (Mar 25, 2012)

JBS said:


> I've gotta say, DB, my kids will not wear thug outfits and pose like homos (not intended as a slur to actual gays) on Facebook.
> 
> Of course, posing one way or the other is- as I think Ex3 is trying to say- is in no way a reflection of guilt or even of being a bad kid.
> 
> But this isn't the point. The point is the media has overwhelmingly decided to paint a picture for all of us so we can get fired up and want to kill each other. It's shit-stirring, is it not? Maybe we can stop choking each other and posting bounties, and start demanding that the media do a better job?


Great post. I totally agree with the media using this issue to gain ratings and divide us- like they always do. His pictures don't define who he is- whether he really was a good kid or a troublemaker. Like I said earlier, people on both sides of this issue need to take a step back.


----------



## Ex3 (Mar 25, 2012)

CDG said:


> Lol. Haven't bought into anything? Your own words reveal the bias you already hold. Zimmerman claims he was attacked. What if that is true? Is it now still his fault because he didn't listen to some 911 dispatcher? Yet you apparently hold the opinion that he was a wannabe cop who was looking for trouble that went out and killed some kid for no other reason than suspicion. Maybe he did, maybe he didn't. The media has done its best to ensure everyone already "knows" what happened before we get the facts though. It appears a lot of people are buying into that.


He called 911 and then followed the kid when he was repeatedly told not to. He likely wouldn't have felt that his life was in danger had he not pursued Martin.  I'll say it one more time...based on what we know, if he had let the police do their jobs, Martin would probably be alive right now.


----------



## Etype (Mar 25, 2012)

The judicial process is so fucked in this day and age by the media. Before a jury can be picked and instructed on their conduct as such, they've all been spoon fed the liberal point of view for the upcoming case.


----------



## CDG (Mar 25, 2012)

Ex3 said:


> He called 911 and then followed the kid when he was repeatedly told not to. He likely wouldn't have felt that his life was in danger had he not pursued Martin I'll say one more time...based on what we know, if he had let the police do their jobs, Martin would probably be alive right now.


 
And my point is that it is unfair to everyone to form opinions with an incomplete picture of what happened.  I disagree with statements like, "Based on what we know, the kid would be alive if..."  We don't know, so to speculate as to guilt one way or the other is premature.  Half of America is ready to send Zimmerman to prison for life because of the "hate crime" he committed.  Yet, the investigation isn't complete, legal experts agree that there is no evidence as of yet to make this a hate crime as defined by US code, and yet we still have our own President making statements that are going to sway public opinion.


----------



## DasBoot (Mar 25, 2012)

CDG said:


> Lol. Nope. Feel free to post whatever you want with qualitiative words like "every", "all", etc. Must be one of those under 20 things where you think you shouldn't be held accountable for making a statement without anything to back it up.


 The intent of my post was very clear- that the picture does not speak to the quality of his character, and that a photo like that is common amongst teenagers.


----------



## CDG (Mar 25, 2012)

DasBoot said:


> that the picture does not speak to the quality of his character, and that a photo like that is common amongst teenagers.


 
I agree with this.  The Internet sucks for conveying intended meaning. ;)


----------



## DasBoot (Mar 25, 2012)

CDG said:


> And my point is that it is unfair to everyone to form opinions with an incomplete picture of what happened. I disagree with statements like, "Based on what we know, the kid would be alive if..." We don't know, so to speculate as to guilt one way or the other is premature. Half of America is ready to send Zimmerman to prison for life because of the "hate crime" he committed. Yet, the investigation isn't complete, legal experts agree that there is no evidence as of yet to make this a hate crime as defined by US code, and yet we still have our own President making statements that are going to sway public opinion.


I can agree with this. I don't know why the President feels the need to comment on an issue like this. It's the same as the whole "Beer Summit" thing that happened in 2009 with the cop from Boston- and we all remember how that issue turned out. Let the legal process take it's course and let Zimmerman be judged in the court of law and not the court of public opinion.


----------



## Brill (Mar 25, 2012)

Ex3 said:


> He called 911 and then *followed the kid when he was repeatedly told not to*. He likely wouldn't have felt that his life was in danger had he not pursued Martin. I'll say it one more time...based on what we know, if he had let the police do their jobs, Martin would probably be alive right now.


 
Source?  The 911 op said "Are you following him?" Zimmerman replies, "Yep." The operator responds: "We don't *need* you to do that."

I'm not seeing an instruction/order in that statement.  Perhaps there are other transcripts?

Apparently there is a witness who claimed that Z was fighting with the deceased and there are reports that Z had marks on his face as well as grass stains on his back: both support the claims he was in a fight and used his weapon when he felt threatened.

The deceased reportedly outweighed Z by 40 lbs and was taller.


----------



## Etype (Mar 25, 2012)

Also, what are the legal guidelines as to following a dispatchers instructions?  I've heard some 911 calls where some dispatchers say some pretty ridiculous things.  What is the actual training given to dispatchers?


----------



## fox1371 (Mar 25, 2012)

Here is a link to some more solid information, including the police report from that night. 

http://www.hlntv.com/article/2012/03/21/police-report-martin-death-details-scene-shooting



> When the first officer arrived at the scene of the shooting, Zimmerman was in possession of a 9 mm handgun, was covered in grass, and was bleeding from his nose and the back of his head, according to the report.


 
Yep, definitely sounds like Zimmerman just followed the kid and shot him for no reason... 

I'm not making any statement as to whether or not the shooting was justified, however according to the POLICE who arrived on the scene, they obviously felt that it WAS justified or else they would have arrested Zimmerman right then and there. 

We can go all over the "what if" scenarios etc.  What if the 17yr old WAS up to some trouble, and he broke into a home and decided to rape and murder somebody?  Is there any evidence to substantiate this theory?  Nope.  But is there any evidence to support that Zimmerman is running around shooting 17yr old black kids because they're black, or he feels that he's some vigilante?  No not at all. 

I actually got into a huge argument with my sister about this whole thing the other day at lunch, and she couldn't believe that I said that there had to be more to the story. 

Oh yeah, and I hate the MSM.


----------



## fox1371 (Mar 25, 2012)

Here is another article that cites an eye witness...



> The witness told FOX 35 in Orlando that he saw evidence of a fight between Martin and Zimmerman, which could lend credence to the gunman's claim that he was acting in self-defence.
> 'The guy on the bottom who had a red sweater on was yelling to me: "Help, help… and I told him to stop and I was calling 911,' he said.
> Zimmerman was wearing a red sweater; Martin was in a grey hoodie.
> He added: 'When I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.'
> ...


----------



## fox1371 (Mar 25, 2012)

Ex3 said:


> I'm going to copy and paste what I wrote on Sawman's wall:
> 
> I don't care what the kid's FB pictures look like. By all accounts, he was unarmed and minding his own business. Martin ran away from him, so why did Zimmerman feel that he was in danger? Zimmerman was a wannabe cop out looking for trouble and he found it. In the past 15 months, he's called 911 46 times. There's something very wrong with that.​


 
Martin was shot in the chest, which IMO would pretty much eliminate the possibility that Martin was running away. 

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/03/24/dc-crowd-calls-for-justice-for-trayvon-martin/


----------



## CDG (Mar 25, 2012)

fox1371 said:


> I'm not making any statement as to whether or not the shooting was justified, however according to the POLICE who arrived on the scene, they obviously felt that it WAS justified or else they would have arrested Zimmerman right then and there.


 
Whatever dude.  It's all part of the police cover-up.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/21/lawrence-odonnell-trayvon-martin_n_1369414.html

We can only trust what all the people in the Million-Hoodie March are saying.  After all, they weren't there, they don't know anything about the shooter, the victim, or the situation, and they all are part of the disenfranchised segment of society that gets abused by the police every day.  How could they be wrong?


----------



## DA SWO (Mar 25, 2012)

lindy said:


> A review of events at Mississippi State U over the weekend would show that is an inaccurate statement. ;)
> 
> "hide your kids, hide your wife..."


What happened at MSU over the weekend?


----------



## policemedic (Mar 25, 2012)

The media is manipulating the story.  There's no question of that.  

Zimmerman did call 911 more often than the average citizen, but then again he was the neighborhood watch guy.  He is supposed to call the police.  Of course, that's where his involvement should end-extra eyes and ears are helpful, getting physically involved less so as this case illustrates.

A dispatcher's instructions carry no legal weight in PA and I doubt it's different in FL.  I agree that being told the police don't "...need you to do that..." is radically different from, "Do not follow him; pull over and wait for the officer.  Do not initiate contact with the male."  However, it may be that Martin approached Zimmerman, and things went south from that point.

The police report presents some facts that are consistent with self-defense.  They do not make the case completely, but they are suggestive of it.  The only way to truly make the determination is with the aid of all available information including witness statements (and there is at least one that states Zimmerman was yelling for help-that's the voice on the tape, not Martin), forensic evidence, and a full cognitive interview with Zimmerman.  

Just because Zimmerman was fighting with Martin does not give him the right to shoot him.  There must be more than a simple fistfight to justify deadly force.  That said, it is not illegal to shoot an unarmed person under certain conditions.  Whether those existed is a matter for the homicide investigators and the prosecutor in Florida, not the court of public opinion.  I did note that the police report has Martin at 6' and 160 lbs, and Zimmerman at 5'9" with no weight listed.  Those are relevant facts.  I've also heard Martin was a football player, and if true, that is also relevant.

Martin's dress is relevant, but how much depends on many factors. 

Is this homicide justified? I don't know.  I wasn't there and I didn't investigate it.

Oh yeah- fuck the Black Panthers.


----------



## Brill (Mar 25, 2012)

SOWT said:


> What happened at MSU over the weekend?


 
Why are the BPs not offering a reward for this crime? 

http://www.cdispatch.com/news/article.asp?aid=16252

Dispatch Staff Report
March 25, 2012 10:37:27 AM

A student was shot to death at a Mississippi State University residence hall late Saturday night, prompting campus-wide alerts as authorities searched for suspects who fled the scene. The university held a press conference Sunday morning at 10 a.m. to release more details. 

Bill Kibler, vice president of student affairs, stated the victim's name is John Sanderson, age 21, from Madison, MS. Sanderson is a first year student at MSU and transferred there from Holmes Community College. 
...
Three male suspects reportedly fled the scene in a blue Crown Victoria. Authorities believe the suspects fled the campus and probably the city of Starkville. Twenty four students from adjacent rooms were relocated after the shooting primarily to preserve the crime scene. A gun was recovered on campus but authorities did not say where it was found. 

As of mid-day Sunday, no arrests had been made. Kibler says the university cannot discuss the motive due to the ongoing investigation. 

University President Mark Keenum announced he believes the shooting was an isolated incident, and there's no indication of any danger to other students; however, university and Starkville residents were cautioned to be aware of an African American male looking for a ride to Jackson.


----------



## RAGE275 (Mar 25, 2012)

“The portrayal of George Zimmerman in the media, as well as the series of events that led to the tragic shooting, are false and extremely misleading," Robert Zimmerman wrote. "Unfortunately, some individuals and organizations have used this tragedy to further their own causes and agendas. George is a Spanish-speaking minority with many black family members and friends. He would be the last to discriminate for any reason whatsoever."

Source;
http://www.csmonitor.com/USA/2012/0...-and-why-did-he-shoot-Trayvon-Martin/(page)/2


----------



## Ex3 (Mar 25, 2012)

fox1371 said:


> Martin was shot in the chest, which IMO would pretty much eliminate the possibility that Martin was running away.
> 
> http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/03/24/dc-crowd-calls-for-justice-for-trayvon-martin/


I realize I'm beating my head against a wall here, but I'll repeat once again...it appears that Zimmerman followed/chased the kid, AFTER which the altercation occurred.


----------



## TH15 (Mar 25, 2012)

DasBoot said:


> What a bunch of retards... Yeah putting a bounty out is really going to do your cause a lot of good


Just ask the New Orleans Saints.


----------



## fox1371 (Mar 25, 2012)

Ex3 said:


> I realize I'm beating my head against a wall here, but I'll repeat once again...it appears that Zimmerman followed/chased the kid, AFTER which the altercation occurred.


Do you have anything to reference this?  According to the couple of witness statements that I read, it "appears" that the shots were fired in order to end the altercation.


----------



## Scotth (Mar 25, 2012)

fox1371 said:


> Martin was shot in the chest, which IMO would pretty much eliminate the possibility that Martin was running away.
> 
> http://washington.cbslocal.com/2012/03/24/dc-crowd-calls-for-justice-for-trayvon-martin/


 
You don't know that.  Maybe he couldn't get away and turned to fight.  Maybe he turned around to ask the guy why he was following him.

Unless the reports are all wrong it has been widely reported that Zimmerman pursued Martin even after the 911 operator said don't.  Whether it was a foot chase or just actively walking behind the guy it doesn't matter.  Whether he shot the guy in the chest or back it doesn't matter.  It stopped being self defense  when he followed Martin and Zimmerman is responsible for everything that occurred after that point.

He is not a cop and has no right to apprehend or even detain anyone.  He didn't witness any crimes and he sure as hell wasn't defending himself at the point.

For all the other stupid crap there is plenty of stupid crap being said on all sides.  Geraldo saying the kid eating skittles and drinking a can of ice tea was as responsible as the person that pulled the trigger because he was wearing a hoddie. that is pretty offensive.


----------



## TH15 (Mar 25, 2012)

Scotth said:


> You don't know that. Maybe he couldn't get away and turned to fight. Maybe he turned around to ask the guy why he was following him.
> 
> Unless the reports are all wrong it has been widely reported that Zimmerman pursued Martin even after the 911 operator said don't. Whether it was a foot chase or just actively walking behind the guy it doesn't matter. Whether he shot the guy in the chest or back it doesn't matter. It stopped being self defense when he followed Martin and Zimmerman is responsible for everything that occurred after that point.
> 
> ...


Here's the police report.
http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf

Not to nit-pick, but you don't know he wasn't defending himself. No one does. I think fox1371 posted some pretty telling links.

It's sad we have to go to multiple news outlets and websites to get information. Unreal.


----------



## Brill (Mar 25, 2012)

Scotth said:


> You don't know that. Maybe he couldn't get away and turned to fight. Maybe he turned around to ask the guy why he was following him.
> 
> Unless the reports are all wrong it has been widely reported that Zimmerman pursued Martin even after the 911 operator said don't. Whether it was a foot chase or just actively walking behind the guy it doesn't matter. Whether he shot the guy in the chest or back it doesn't matter. It stopped being self defense when he followed Martin and Zimmerman is responsible for everything that occurred after that point.
> 
> ...


 
Bullshit!  It became self defense when:

the "victim" felt his own life or someone else's was in jeapordy 
the "attacker" had the means and ability to inflict harm (21 foot rule applies)

Do you honestly think a trained police force would not arrest ANYONE of a crime involving a firearm if there was evidence of self-defense?  I would be willing to bet the homicide detectives looked at the scene and provided their expert input: no crime. I wasn't there but I'm pretty sure they didn't let Z walk because he was Latino.

When did Z-man lose his right to citizen's arrest?   When does the right to self-defense end by following someone?


----------



## Scotth (Mar 25, 2012)

TH15 said:


> Here's the police report.
> http://cnninsession.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/martinpolicreport.pdf
> 
> Not to nit-pick, but you don't know he wasn't defending himself. No one does. I think fox1371 posted some pretty telling links.
> ...


 
I'm sure Zimmerman was defending himself at the very moment of the shooting and we all agree there probably was some type of confrontation.  We will probably never know what truly happened because one of the prime witness is dead.

The point is, BEFORE there was ever a confrontation, the point at which Zimmerman chose to pursue the kid he gave up the self defense argument.  There wouldn't have been a later confrontation if he hadn't pursued him and there wouldn't have been a need to defend himself regardless of what actions either one took because there wouldn't have been a confrontation in the first place.

He is not a cop and it's not his job to pursue people.


----------



## TH15 (Mar 25, 2012)

You're right, he isn't a cop. But he is the neighborhood watch "captain" or whatever. I think it's pretty clear this guy wanted to be a cop, so he is naturally going to try to be like one. That said, I don't think its illegal to follow someone to see what they are up to. It's his neighborhood. I don't know what kind of neighborhood it was, or the crime rate, etc, etc., but I know I don't like suspicious people in mine and I absolutely have no problem checking something suspicious out. Is it illegal for me to do that? Is it illegal for me to approach a stranger in my neighborhood to see what's up? No, its not- and I've done it a few times and will probably do it in the future, too.

The local police don't seem to think he gave up the whole self-defense argument. I have no reason to question their opinion.


----------



## Brill (Mar 25, 2012)

Scotth said:


> I'm sure Zimmerman was defending himself at the very moment of the shooting and we all agree there probably was some type of confrontation. We will probably never know what truly happened because one of the prime witness is dead.
> 
> The point is, BEFORE there was ever a confrontation, the point at which Zimmerman chose to pursue the kid he gave up the self defense argument. There wouldn't have been a later confrontation if he hadn't pursued him and there wouldn't have been a need to defend himself regardless of what actions either one took because there wouldn't have been a confrontation in the first place.
> 
> He is not a cop and it's not his job to pursue people.


 
Wow.  Well, using that "logic", one could argue that Martin died because HE caused his own death by fighting with Zimmerman, who was bleeding from the nose and back of his head according to the police report. 

Following someone is legal.
Assualt is illegal.
Discharging a firearm resulting in death while exercising self-defence is legal.


----------



## SpitfireV (Mar 25, 2012)

Whatever happened, he fucked up a scent for a dog by meandering near him.


----------



## Brill (Mar 25, 2012)

http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/ma...omrim-case-20120325,0,1521692.story?track=rss

Similar case occured in Baltimore two years ago.


----------



## AWP (Mar 25, 2012)

The good news in all of this is that the case will be tried in FL and he'll receive a fair and impartial jury like Casey Anthony which may or may not vote with the masses (like the Anthony case) just to end the case so they can go home.

My home sweet home of Flori-derp.


----------



## SpitfireV (Mar 25, 2012)

Where's our professional FL witness when we need him?


----------



## 0699 (Mar 25, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> The good news in all of this is that the case will be tried in FL and he'll receive a fair and impartial jury like Casey Anthony which may or may not vote with the masses (like the Anthony case) just to end the case so they can go home.
> 
> My home sweet home of Flori-derp.


 
But it'll be in a federal court.  Guilty or innocent, I bet Zimmerman does time in jail.  The public court has already found him guilty.


----------



## Scotth (Mar 25, 2012)

lindy said:


> Wow. Well, using that "logic", one could argue that Martin died because HE caused his own death by fighting with Zimmerman, who was bleeding from the nose and back of his head according to the police report.
> 
> Following someone is legal.
> Assualt is illegal.
> Discharging a firearm resulting in death while exercising self-defence is legal.


 
Do you think the kid, who was being pursued feared for his life and didn't have a right to defend himself? That is the big difference here who is pursuing and who is being pursued. If they got into a physical confrontation who is at fault, the kid getting pursued?

If you want to talk flawed logic lets talk about yours. By your logic what precipitated an event  doesn't matter at the point I feel threatened I can pull a gun and kill that person. So I could go talk shit to someone and at the point I feel threaten I would have the right to pull my gun and kill that person? I go to a restaurant and get bad food and I confront the waiter and if I feel threatened by the response of the waiter I can pull my gun and kill them?

Look at comments from other people like Allen West who said Zimmerman had not right to pursue the kid and the Stand Your Ground law doesn't apply because he followed the kid. If Zimmerman was being followed it would have been a different case.


----------



## TH15 (Mar 25, 2012)

Allen West is in the same boat as the President- keep your fucking mouths shut.

Scott, how do you know he was being "pursued?" How do you know Zimmerman didn't just approach the kid without a chase? 

I also don't buy the argument he "feared for his life." Again, how do you know what he was feeling? The kid was much bigger compared to Zimmerman. And, he's a teenager- not necessarily a group known for being bashful and saying "no" to a fight.


----------



## Etype (Mar 25, 2012)

This thread is killing me, someone start another thread about G.I. Joe.


----------



## Brill (Mar 25, 2012)

Scotth said:


> Do you think the kid, who was being *pursued* feared for his life and didn't have a right to defend himself? That is the big difference here who is *pursuing and who is being pursued*. If they got into a physical confrontation who is at fault, the kid getting pursued?
> 
> If you want to talk flawed logic lets talk about yours. By your logic what precipitated an event doesn't matter at the point I feel threatened I can pull a gun and kill that person. RIF (Reading Is Fundamental). Perhaps you should read my post again.
> 
> ...


----------



## policemedic (Mar 25, 2012)

TH15 said:


> You're right, he isn't a cop. But he is the neighborhood watch "captain" or whatever. I think it's pretty clear this guy wanted to be a cop, so he is naturally going to try to be like one. That said, I don't think its illegal to follow someone to see what they are up to. It's his neighborhood. I don't know what kind of neighborhood it was, or the crime rate, etc, etc., but I know I don't like suspicious people in mine and I absolutely have no problem checking something suspicious out. Is it illegal for me to do that? Is it illegal for me to approach a stranger in my neighborhood to see what's up? No, its not- and I've done it a few times and will probably do it in the future, too.
> 
> The local police don't seem to think he gave up the whole self-defense argument. I have no reason to question their opinion.


 
A few points:
a-Neighborhood watch captain= civilian without authority or official sanction.  There's nothing wrong with that, mind.  Actually, I applaud the sense of civic duty exhibited by members of neighborhood watches.  But let's call it what it is.
b- State laws vary, and I'm no expert on Florida law enforcement.  However, in PA it can be illegal to follow someone around in a public place unless you're a member of the constabulary.
c- Is it illegal for you to approach a stranger in your neighborhood to see what's up? You're free to engage anyone you like in conversation.  The better question is, what are you going to do when the guy you're talking to _is_ up to no good, and he decides to up the ante?


----------



## Ex3 (Mar 26, 2012)

fox1371 said:


> Do you have anything to reference this? According to the couple of witness statements that I read, it "appears" that the shots were fired in order to end the altercation.


 



> ​At shortly before 7:15, George Zimmerman, who volunteered for the development's neighborhood watch, spots Trayvon standing outside the development's clubhouse near the community mailboxes, where the teen had ducked under an awning to get out of the rain. Zimmerman calls police on a non-emergency number from his SUV, saying he sees a suspicious person.​​When Trayvon leaves the clubhouse, Zimmerman pursues him in his car. Trayvon is talking on his cell phone to his 16-year-old girlfriend in Miami. She says Trayvon tells her someone is following him. He sounds nervous. She tells him to run.​​Trayvon goes off the road to walk between two rows of town homes, down the lane from his destination, Zimmerman gets out of his car and pursues him on foot. He tells the dispatcher "oh shit, he's running." the dispatcher asks if he is pursuing the subject. When Zimmerman says he is, the dispatcher says, "we don't need you to do that."​​They don't get far. Just around the back lane, Trayvon is confronted by the stranger in a red jacket and jeans - he's not dressed like a police officer. Trayvon's girlfriend is still on the phone. She says she hears someone confront Trayvon, and ask him what he was doing there. The phone drops.​​At that time, the first 911 call is placed to police by an alarmed neighbor, who reports hearing a fight going on in their backyard. It was followed in rapid succession by five more calls to the emergency number. One caller says she hears someone screaming for help, and then gunshots.​A 7:17 p.m., the first officer, Officer Smith, arrives at the gated complex, responding to Zimmerman's 911 call. In his report, he says that as he arrives, dispatchers notified him of the 911 calls reporting shots fired in the area.​


http://goo.gl/SzAyN

That's an amazingly quick response time to the 911 calls.  You can question the style of reporting here, but I only posted it because it had the time Zimmerman first called 911 and when other 911 calls came in about shots being fired.


----------



## Headshot (Mar 26, 2012)

Here is what he will be tried against:

*Q. When can I use my handgun to protect myself?*
*A.* Florida law justifies use of deadly force when you are:

Trying to protect yourself or another person from death or serious bodily harm;
Trying to prevent a forcible felony, such as rape, robbery, burglary or kidnapping.
Using or displaying a handgun in any other circumstances could result in your conviction for crimes such as improper exhibition of a firearm, manslaughter, or worse.
Example of the kind of attack that will not justify defending yourself with deadly force: Two neighbors got into a fight, and one of them tried to hit the other by swinging a garden hose. The neighbor who was being attacked with the hose shot the other in the chest. The court upheld his conviction for aggravated battery with a firearm, because an attack with a garden hose is not the kind of violent assault that justifies responding with deadly force.

http://licgweb.doacs.state.fl.us/weapons/self_defense.html


----------



## Ranger Psych (Mar 26, 2012)

Scotth said:


> He is not a cop and *has no right to apprehend or even detain anyone*.


 
Guessing you've never heard of citizens arrest...


----------



## Headshot (Mar 26, 2012)

Ranger Psych said:


> Guessing you've never heard of citizens arrest...


I have, from one of the toughest lawmen ever.


----------



## Scotth (Mar 26, 2012)

Ranger Psych said:


> Guessing you've never heard of citizens arrest...


 
Guessing your not aware that there are minimum standards that have to be met before you can legally make a citizens' arrest.  Walking down the street  and someone interpreting that as suspicious probably is not going to meet the standard of "probable cause" or "being in the presence" requirement for making a citizens' arrest.


----------



## Headshot (Mar 26, 2012)

Florida law does not have any specific statutes on citizen's arrest. This is because all relevant information on citizen's arrest law is placed under the concept of a police officer arresting someone outside of his jurisdiction. Under Florida law, this is the same as a "citizen's arrest." In the Florida Court of Appeals case "Ripley v. The State of Florida" (2005), it was made clear that the content of citizen's arrest law is identical to an officer arresting someone outside of their normal jurisdiction.

Read more: Florida Citizen's Arrest Laws | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_7258531_florida-citizen_s-arrest-laws.html#ixzz1qFOvfOxK​


----------



## Scotth (Mar 26, 2012)

Headshot said:


> Florida law does not have any specific statutes on citizen's arrest. This is because all relevant information on citizen's arrest law is placed under the concept of a police officer arresting someone outside of his jurisdiction. Under Florida law, this is the same as a "citizen's arrest." In the Florida Court of Appeals case "Ripley v. The State of Florida" (2005), it was made clear that the content of citizen's arrest law is identical to an officer arresting someone outside of their normal jurisdiction.
> ​Read more: Florida Citizen's Arrest Laws | eHow.com http://www.ehow.com/list_7258531_florida-citizen_s-arrest-laws.html#ixzz1qFOvfOxK​


 
Nice link thanks for sharing.


----------



## JBS (Mar 26, 2012)

Just heard that another witness has come forward.


He is saying he's willing to make written testimony that Zimmerman followed T. from a distance, and at some point, dropped off the chase, went back to his car. T. then came flying over and sucker punched him. Zimmerman fell to the ground and T. began raining punches down, to which Zimmerman began calling for help.

http://miami.cbslocal.com/2012/03/2...new-details-of-zimmermans-self-defense-claim/



> The report, released online Monday afternoon, claims Zimmerman told them Martin attacked him as he headed back to his SUV, was knocked to the ground with a single blow, and then had his head smashed into the ground by Trayvon, who was on top of him.
> 
> Bloodied and battered, he claims he shot the teen in self defense.
> 
> ...


 

And:
*Trayvon Martin case: Martin was the aggressor, police sources say*

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/nationworld/la-na-nn-trayvon-martin-case-20120326,0,5662656.story



> [snip] ...police sources say Martin was the aggressor on Feb. 26, knocking Zimmerman to the ground with a single punch and then climbing on top of the 28-year-old neighborhood watch captain and slamming the back of his head into the ground. Police say this account, given by Zimmerman, is supported by eyewitnesses, according to the Sentinel's report.
> 
> One such witness reportedly told police that he saw Martin on top of Zimmerman, striking the man, while Zimmerman cried out for help. The attack left Zimmerman bloodied, police sources told the Sentinel, and led him to fire at Martin in self-defense.
> 
> ...


 
It isn't illegal for Zimmerman to "follow" Martin, and to keep him under "surveillance" if you want to call it that. From these reports, it sounds like Martin didn't appreciate the gesture very much, came back and sucker punched Zimmerman.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Mar 26, 2012)

Scotth said:


> Guessing your not aware that there are minimum standards that have to be met before you can legally make a citizens' arrest. Walking down the street and someone interpreting that as suspicious probably is not going to meet the standard of "probable cause" or "being in the presence" requirement for making a citizens' arrest.


 
Nope, never covered it before. I figured since they gave me a gun I just shot anyone who showed up on company property without a properly displayed company ID.


----------



## AMRUSMCR (Mar 26, 2012)

If, at night, I were walking down a street, doing nothing wrong and a suspicious vehicle followed me.....  and I took the time to go a direction that the car couldn't go... and then the driver got out of the vehicle and began running in pursuit of me, you bet your ass I'd turn around and start swinging, if I weren't armed. 

So yes, based on the reports provided it sounds like maybe Zimmerman did shoot Travyon in self defense, but it also sounds like his "fear for his life moment" happened after he did something that created the physical altercation in the first place.  

Sadly, we'll probably never know the whole, true story.


----------



## JBS (Mar 26, 2012)

AMRUSMCR said:


> If, at night, I were walking down a street, doing nothing wrong and a suspicious vehicle followed me..... and I took the time to go a direction that the car couldn't go... and then the driver got out of the vehicle and began running in pursuit of me, you bet your ass I'd turn around and start swinging, if I weren't armed.
> 
> So yes, based on the reports provided it sounds like maybe Zimmerman did shoot Travyon in self defense, but it also sounds like his "fear for his life moment" happened after he did something that created the physical altercation in the first place.
> 
> Sadly, we'll probably never know the whole, true story.


I personally have begun to form the opinion that Zimmerman was a good guy who has been smeared in all of this.


According to the facts, this neighborhood was getting burglarized all the time.
Zimmerman* had previously stopped burglaries in progress*, coordinating those efforts with police.
Zimmerman did not put the program (Community Watch) together, the HOA in his area did.
Zimmerman was not "self appointed" as ABC News falsely reported here; he was selected by his HOA
Zimmerman made himself aware of the law, including *attending a 4 month course *on the subject.
One must also consider that Zimmerman was not the vigilante he is being made out to be. It was a legitimate Neighborhood Watch program put together with the assistance and ongoing guidance of the Sanford Police Department, and he wasn't an racist idiot, but an informed citizen with 4 months of basic education on the topic and an otherwise sterling record, including the interruption of other crimes.



> In 2008, Zimmerman enrolled in the Seminole County Sheriff's Office citizens' law-enforcement academy, a four-month-long, one evening a week course consisting of a total of 14 hours of classes.[38][39] He reportedly expressed ambitions of becoming a member of law enforcement, writing: "I hold law enforcement officers in the highest regard and I hope to one day become one."[40] In 2009, he re-enrolled in Seminole State College and was working toward an associate degree with the goal of becoming a police officer.[41] Seminole State College withdrew Zimmerman's enrollment because of this shooting controversy "based solely on our responsibility to provide for the safety of our students on campus as well as for Mr. Zimmerman."[42]


 



> The February 2012 HOA newsletter requested that crime victims "call our captain, George Zimmerman" after calling the police.[13] Wendy Dorival, who organizes Neighborhood Watch for the Sanford Police Department, told the Sentinel in a recent interview that Zimmerman was chosen as a watch coordinator by his neighbors.[46]
> 
> Some residents of his gated townhouse community declared that Zimmerman was known for being strict and that he went door to door asking them to be on the lookout for "young black men who appear to be outsiders", while others regarded him as "normal," "helpful" and "passionate about neighborhood security", having supposedly thwarted a previous burglary attempt.[34] The community reportedly experienced numerous instances of burglary, theft, and one shooting during the previous year, with 402 calls made to the police."[34] According to the _Miami Herald_, Zimmerman had placed 46 of those calls since the beginning of 2011, "to report disturbances, break-ins, windows left open and other incidents; nine of those times, he saw someone or something suspicious".[34] Sanford police chief Bill Lee stated, "Mr. Zimmerman was not acting outside the legal boundaries of Florida Statute by carrying his weapon when this incident occurred."[47]


----------



## CDG (Mar 26, 2012)

AMRUSMCR said:


> If, at night, I were walking down a street, doing nothing wrong and a suspicious vehicle followed me..... and I took the time to go a direction that the car couldn't go... and then the driver got out of the vehicle and began running in pursuit of me, you bet your ass I'd turn around and start swinging, if I weren't armed.


 
It's amazing that so many people here seem to know exactly what happened.   Now we have Martin taking evasive procedures and Zimmerman chasing him down at a run. Funny, none of the reports have mentioned those details.  In fact, they have Zimmerman heading back to his car when he was attacked.


----------



## JBS (Mar 26, 2012)

CDG said:


> [snip] In fact, _they have Zimmerman heading back to his car when he was attacked._


 
A critical detail not being reported by the MSM.


----------



## Headshot (Mar 26, 2012)

CDG said:


> It's amazing that so many people here seem to know exactly what happened.  Now we have Martin taking evasive procedures and Zimmerman chasing him down at a run. Funny, none of the reports have mentioned those details. In fact, they have Zimmerman heading back to his car when he was attacked.


I heard he's really a robot.


----------



## CDG (Mar 26, 2012)

JBS said:


> A critical detail not being reported by the MSM.


 
Along with the fact that he is part Hispanic.  The MSM has continually attempted to make this out to be a white on black crime in order to further evoke emotional outlash.  It is rare to see an article mention his true ethnicity. Jesse Jackson is going so far as to compare this to the 1955 Emmett Till murder.


----------



## policemedic (Mar 26, 2012)

JBS - Nice research.


----------



## policemedic (Mar 26, 2012)

oh yeah... been meaning to bump this for Etype


----------



## Etype (Mar 26, 2012)

FML


----------



## TH15 (Mar 26, 2012)

CDG said:


> Jesse Jackson is going so far as to compare this to the 1955 Emmett Till murder.


When I saw first saw that comparison I could not believe my eyes. Comparing this to Emmett Till is a complete slap in the face to that poor kid (Emmett). CNN is sure running with the comparison though. In fact, CNN is the most blatant source of misinformation of this case IMO. Check out their website. They can't get enough of this.


----------



## NeverSayDie (Mar 26, 2012)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=ANcuDQbXYw0#t=255s

relevant up to 5:20


----------



## AMRUSMCR (Mar 26, 2012)

CDG said:


> It's amazing that so many people here seem to know exactly what happened.  Now we have Martin taking evasive procedures and Zimmerman chasing him down at a run. Funny, none of the reports have mentioned those details. In fact, they have Zimmerman heading back to his car when he was attacked.


 
I disagree with how you stated this - I'm not saying I know what happened.  What I posted was to show another side to the story.  I do agree with you that I wasn't there, so I don't know what what happened to start the altercation.  But if he was in his car following the guy, then got out of his car and followed on foot (just leisurely following to see where the guy went .... not even pursuing) in the other persons position, the fight or flight response would immediately go up.  If someone followed me in a car then got out on foot to follow me.... I am at the point where I am in fear for my safety and if I felt I could not out run them... I can absolutely empathize with that kind of situation escalating and see how Trayvon Martin may have come out of the gate with both fists flying.


----------



## Headshot (Mar 26, 2012)

AMRUSMCR said:


> <snip>If someone followed me in a car then got out on foot to follow me.... I am at the point where I am in fear for my safety and if I felt I could not out run them... I can absolutely empathize with that kind of situation escalating and see how Trayvon Martin may have come out of the gate with both fists flying.


 
Who was following who at the point of attack?  They also claim to now have a witness to verify this.  So Martin, no longer being pursued should have just kept on going.  The kid made a punk move if the story is substantiated and got his reward for attacking someone who was heading away from him....FAIL! 



> The report, released online Monday afternoon, claims Zimmerman told them Martin attacked him as he headed back to his SUV


----------



## CDG (Mar 26, 2012)

AMRUSMCR said:


> I disagree with how you stated this - I'm not saying I know what happened. What I posted was to show another side to the story. I do agree with you that I wasn't there, so I don't know what what happened to start the altercation. But if he was in his car following the guy, then got out of his car and followed on foot (just leisurely following to see where the guy went .... not even pursuing) in the other persons position, the fight or flight response would immediately go up. If someone followed me in a car then got out on foot to follow me.... I am at the point where I am in fear for my safety and if I felt I could not out run them... I can absolutely empathize with that kind of situation escalating and see how Trayvon Martin may have come out of the gate with both fists flying.


 
 Your unfounded conjecture brings nothing to the argument.   If you admit you don't what happened, then why do you feel the need to attempt to "show another side to the story"?


----------



## Brill (Mar 26, 2012)

AMRUSMCR said:


> If, at night, I were walking down a street, doing nothing wrong and a suspicious vehicle followed me..... and I took the time to go a direction that the car couldn't go... and then the driver got out of the vehicle and began running in pursuit of me...


 
Then you need to suit up and venture outside your comfort zone to perhaps a country in the FSU.  What you're describing, happened every single day.

GI Joe, and apparently the Z-man, would wait until a threat presented itself before acting.  <--- ref for Etype.


----------



## AWP (Mar 26, 2012)

CDG said:


> Your unfounded conjecture brings nothing to the argument. If you admit you don't what happened, then why do you feel the need to attempt to "show another side to the story"?


 
Most of this thread is unfounded conjecture. The "facts" of this story are constantly changing so to see a bunch of folks up in arms over this is both hilarious and sad.


----------



## Brill (Mar 26, 2012)

Pursuit begins at 3:18. Is that guy a threat?


----------



## Etype (Mar 26, 2012)

Lets lock this thread and get on with SS life as usual.


----------



## Etype (Mar 26, 2012)

And lets wage open war against the new black panther party (left lowercase on purpose).

And screw you if you mind the double post.

And I know I'm not supposed to start a sentence with and.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 26, 2012)

After reading this whole thread I have an eagerness to go kick a cute lil puppy.

Oh and by the way, if I had been sucker punched and had my head bashed into the ground, you can bet your ass I would have shot the dumbshit as well.


----------



## Etype (Mar 26, 2012)

After JAB kicks it, I'm gonna pick it up and put it in the microwave.


----------



## Brill (Mar 26, 2012)

Etype said:


> After JAB kicks it, I'm gonna pick it up and put it in the microwave.


 
Quiet on the set...roll tape...Action!


----------



## surgicalcric (Mar 26, 2012)

lindy said:


> How in hell is BP offering a bounty on a man not a hate crime under Federal law?


 
Because they are black - only white people can hate other ethnicities.  Didnt you get the memo Bro?


----------



## Ranger Psych (Mar 26, 2012)

Once Etype makes it hot, I'm hucking the fucker into a woodchipper.


----------



## Etype (Mar 26, 2012)

That puppy is going to suffer because of this thread.


----------



## Mac_NZ (Mar 26, 2012)

This is like the 12th man but in text format and only a few witty one liners.


----------



## Etype (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm then going to collect the puppy's guts from the chipper and send them to Al Sharpton.  

P.S.  It was a chocolate lab puppy...


----------



## Headshot (Mar 26, 2012)

I'm going to put some Stubb's BBQ sauce on it and make Sharpton toss Hillary Clinton's salad with it at gun point.


----------



## Etype (Mar 26, 2012)

That was brilliant.


----------



## reed11b (Mar 26, 2012)

Etype said:


> That puppy is going to suffer because of this thread.


Somehow this puppy violation will be blamed entirely on the Marine Corp, as it should be. 
Reed


----------



## pardus (Mar 26, 2012)

Closed, at least for a minute to let everyone reset and come back with a little rational thought.

Or something...


----------



## pardus (Mar 27, 2012)

OK, here goes part two.

Play nice and try to keep it on track.


----------



## Etype (Mar 27, 2012)

I was considering starting a thread to discuss this thread- not the event, but just the thread itself.


----------



## JBS (Mar 27, 2012)

Back on track, one of Zimmerman's black friends comes forward to defend him.

Apparently, one of Zimmerman's weekend activities was to do free academic tutoring for minority at-risk youth.


This sounds alot less like white racist murder and more like media-fueled pitchfork and fire-torch rabble-rousing bullshit:



Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


----------



## Ravensfan9090 (Mar 27, 2012)

Here's what I don't get...haven't gone through to read a lot of the posts, but there was an Iraqi immigrant woman killed in California.  A note was left by her which stated "Go back to your country."  THAT is a racist crime.  Where's the outrage for it?  We don't know the color of the skin of this person, but no one seems to care.  Additionally, Chicago has had 6 killings in the past week from what I understand...the youngest victim was 3 years old.  Again where's the outrage for this?


----------



## pardus (Mar 27, 2012)

The media decides who and what we should be outraged over.


----------



## CDG (Mar 27, 2012)

_Rep. Frederica Wilson, D-Florida, called Trayvon Martin a "victim of a botched police investigation full of incompetence or intelligent mismanagement." She added, "Trayvon was hunted, chased, tackled and shot. Ill-conceived laws and *lax gun laws all contribute to this tragedy*. Mr. Zimmerman should be arrested immediately for his own safety."_

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting/?hpt=hp_t1

Liberals will never pass up a chance to focus on the gun issue, will they?


----------



## AWP (Mar 27, 2012)

Rep. Frederica Wilson, D-umb, should be removed from office for our safety.


----------



## JBS (Mar 27, 2012)

CNN is still stoking the Race Wars flame as frantically as they can, despite the fact this was minority-on-minority violence, and despite the fact that multiple witnesses have now emerged indicating that Trayvon Martin attacked Zimmerman after Zimmerman stopped following Martin and was heading back to his own car:

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/27/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html



> _ At 8 p.m. ET Thursday at CNN studios in New York, Soledad O'Brien is hosting a town hall meeting called "Beyond Trayvon: Race and Justice in America." The special will air at 8 p.m. ET Friday on CNN._


----------



## DasBoot (Mar 27, 2012)

I think it is slowly burning out, but I feel it should have been a debate on Self Defense and not on race or guns. Wilson is obviously a political attention whore- an elected ambulance chaser. Some kid gets shot and she wants to use that to ruin our coolest Amendment...


----------



## AWP (Mar 27, 2012)

We think everyone has enough information on which to form their opinons.

Sincerely,

Tawana Brawley
Susan Smith
Duke Lacrosse


----------



## CDG (Mar 27, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Duke Lacrosse


 
Have you ever read the book, _It's Not About The Truth_?  It's a really good read on the Duke Lacrosse case.

http://www.amazon.com/Its-Not-About-Truth-Shattered/dp/1416551468


----------



## AWP (Mar 27, 2012)

CDG said:


> Have you ever read the book, _It's Not About The Truth_? It's a really good read on the Duke Lacrosse case.
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/Its-Not-About-Truth-Shattered/dp/1416551468


 
No I haven't. My current pile of books on my Kindle will have me busy until 2015 at the earliest. :)


----------



## SpitfireV (Mar 27, 2012)

I did a quick google on Duke Lacross since I didn't know anything about it. Fucked up.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 27, 2012)

SpitfireV said:


> I did a quick google on Duke Lacross since I didn't know anything about it. Fucked up.


 
I was in North Carolina part of the time this was going on.  IIRC the Black Panthers and others threatened the players with physical violence, all in the name of "justice."


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 27, 2012)

Here is another gem from an op-ed about the that actually ran in a North Carolina college newspaper at the height of the lacrosse scandal:

*The column, penned by senior history major and NCCU student government member Solomon Burnette, is titled "Death to All Rapists." It contends the dismissal of charges against lacrosse players David Evans, Collin Finnerty and Reade Seligmann wasn't surprising because American law "is not worth the paper it is printed upon."* 

Burnette -- son of former City Councilwoman Brenda Burnette -- concluded by saying that others must be ready to mete out "retributive correction." 



> *"White people still murder us with impunity. White people still beat us with impunity. White people still rape us and get away with it," he wrote. "The only deterrent to these legally, socially and economically validated supremacist actions is the fear of physical retribution. Black men, stand up. Black women, stand up. Black children, stand up. We have been at war here with these same white people for 500 years. The time to fight, whether intellectually, artistically or physically, has always been now."*


----------



## Etype (Mar 28, 2012)

Is anyone else completely exhausted by the constant barrage of (mostly racially charged) social crises that we we've been inundated with under Obama's reign?

If it's not rich white kids (not) raping poor black stripper/prostitutes, its rich white politicians trying to keep the poor folks from the polls, or trying to take over womens' uteri, or crying voter intimidation when those revolutionary new black panthers exercise their constitutional right to intimidate voters.


----------



## AWP (Mar 28, 2012)

Etype said:


> Is anyone else completely exhausted by the constant barrage of (mostly racially charged) social crises that we we've been inundated with under Obama's reign?
> 
> If it's not rich white kids (not) raping poor black stripper/prostitutes, its rich white politicians trying to keep the poor folks from the polls, or trying to take over womens' uteri, or crying voter intimidation when those revolutionary new black panthers exercise their constitutional right to intimidate voters.


 
I kind of like them placing a bounty on Zimmerman's head and nothing being done about it.


----------



## JBS (Mar 28, 2012)

Holy Geezus!

MSNBC Anchor Flips Out on Zimmerman Lawyer:
(A couple of minutes in, the questions reveal how Zimmerman is guilty already until proven innocent.)
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline...y-cancels-interview-lawrence-o-150530798.html


----------



## TH15 (Mar 28, 2012)

JBS said:


> Holy Geezus!
> 
> MSNBC Anchor Flips Out on Zimmerman Lawyer:
> (A couple of minutes in, the questions reveal how Zimmerman is guilty already until proven innocent.)
> http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/cutline...y-cancels-interview-lawrence-o-150530798.html


I'm surprised anyone even noticed. The number of people who watch Lawrence O'Donnell are about the same number of people still talking about Kony 2012.

ETA: O'Donnell is a MFing cunt.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 28, 2012)

> "They killed my son, and now they are trying to kill his reputation"


 
http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...uspension-police-want-demonize-194904865.html

Who, exactly, is the "they" here?  As far as I can tell, only one person is suspected of killing Trayvon Martin.  And reporting facts about a person is hardly killing one's reputation.


----------



## CDG (Mar 28, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...uspension-police-want-demonize-194904865.html
> 
> Who, exactly, is the "they" here? As far as I can tell, only one person is suspected of killing Trayvon Martin. And reporting facts about a person is hardly killing one's reputation.


 
I wonder how she feels about the outdated pictures of both her son and Zimmerman being shown.  Is that ruining Zimmerman's reputation?  Oh wait, it's not because she's not on his side.  It's only unfair and unjust when it happens to you.


----------



## pardus (Mar 28, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/lookout...uspension-police-want-demonize-194904865.html
> 
> Who, exactly, is the "they" here? As far as I can tell, only one person is suspected of killing Trayvon Martin. And reporting facts about a person is hardly killing one's reputation.


 
You know exactly who "They" are whitey.


----------



## CDG (Mar 28, 2012)

pardus said:


> You know exactly who "They" are whitey.





pardus said:


> You know exactly who "They" are whitey.


 
So true it bears repeating apparently.


----------



## pardus (Mar 28, 2012)

CDG said:


> So true it bears repeating apparently.


 
What are you talking about?


----------



## Etype (Mar 28, 2012)

I love how all these black panther folks and farakhan types like to be muslims.  I had a Yemeni terp explain to me one day how racist most Arabs are to blacks, and how black members of Al Qaeda are pretty much the bottom rung of the AQ caste system.  He also went onto explain how his ancestors (Berbers) forced the Africans into slavery and subsequently Islam and how he feels the joke is on them for wanting to convert.  

The neo-radical black panther vs. the fundamentalist- pretty different perspectives.


----------



## pardus (Mar 28, 2012)

Etype said:


> I love how all these black panther folks and farakhan types like to be muslims. I had a Yemeni terp explain to me one day how racist most Arabs are to blacks, and how black members of Al Qaeda are pretty much the bottom rung of the AQ caste system. He also went onto explain how his ancestors (Berbers) forced the Africans into slavery and subsequently Islam and how he feels the joke is on them for wanting to convert.
> 
> The neo-radical black panther vs. the fundamentalist- pretty different perspectives.


 
Yup, just look at who the Arab's slaves have been for millenia.


----------



## JBS (Mar 28, 2012)

The most prolific slave traders in all of human history were Arab Muslims, with the practice reaching its height under the Ottoman empire. Their total slave trade far exceeded that of the British, Portuguese and Spanish empires combined by several hundred percent according to most estimates.

The highest number of slaves per capita in any population was none other than Mauritania, also the last country to officially ban the practice as late as 1909.

It is still really common in Islamic countries for the wealthy to "hire" black men in particular to oversee their households. Yet even the hired help still live under incredibly austere conditions, earning the rough equivalent of perhaps $150 to $200 per month on the high end- and that would be in the "wealthier" countries.



Etype said:


> I love how all these black panther folks and farakhan types like to be muslims. I had a Yemeni terp explain to me one day how racist most Arabs are to blacks, and how black members of Al Qaeda are pretty much the bottom rung of the AQ caste system. He also went onto explain how his ancestors (Berbers) forced the Africans into slavery and subsequently Islam and how he feels the joke is on them for wanting to convert.


 
The actual Berbers of the Greater Atlas are actually the only people in the region who were never fully conquered by the expansion of the Islamic empire- mostly because of their lack of any real resources and the remoteness of where they live. I've done bartering and trading with them (mountain Berbers), and they have the most peculiar- and completely unique written language, unlike anything else in all of Africa or the Middle East. The written form is still used among the roaming Touareg- the descendents of some of the original Berbers. I've read that specialists believe the language goes back to before the Punic wars.


----------



## Brill (Mar 28, 2012)

Etype said:


> I love how all these black panther folks and farakhan types like to be muslims. I had a Yemeni terp explain to me one day how racist most Arabs are to blacks, and how black members of Al Qaeda are pretty much the bottom rung of the AQ caste system. He also went onto explain how his ancestors (Berbers) forced the Africans into slavery and subsequently Islam and how he feels the joke is on them for wanting to convert.
> 
> The neo-radical black panther vs. the fundamentalist- pretty different perspectives.


 
Imagine what they thought when "he" said "Yeah, I'll put that PETN in my underwear and kick it off."


----------



## Headshot (Mar 28, 2012)

JBS said:


> The most prolific slave traders in all of human history were Arab Muslims, with the practice reaching its height under the Ottoman empire. Their total slave trade far exceeded that of the British, Portuguese and Spanish empires combined by several hundred percent according to most estimates.
> 
> The highest number of slaves per capita in any population was none other than Mauritania, also the last country to officially ban the practice as late as 1909.
> 
> ...


 
I have some of their carpet in my house.


----------



## JBS (Mar 28, 2012)

They still make it- actually_ rugs,_ not carpet- by hand in much the same way they've always done it. The people (Berbers) as a whole are remarkably creative. They can take a hubcap from an old Peugeot that died in the desert 20 years ago, hammer it, cut it, engrave it, lay camel bone into it, wrap it around polished Argane wood, and produce a cheap ornamental dagger with sheath in a few hours. Those inexpensive daggers then end up in bazaars all over N. Western Africa alongside the much more expensive "real" daggers.


----------



## TH15 (Mar 28, 2012)

Check this little "protest" out.

http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/28759769

They are really making it hard for me not to blow my top with a nice long profanity laced rant.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 28, 2012)

TH15 said:


> Check this little "protest" out.
> 
> http://news.yahoo.com/video/us-15749625/28759769
> 
> They are really making it hard for me not to blow my top with a nice long profanity laced rant.


*Oops!*

*Sorry, the page you requested either doesn't exist or isn't available right now!*


----------



## TH15 (Mar 28, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> *Oops!*
> 
> *Sorry, the page you requested either doesn't exist or isn't available right now!*


http://news.yahoo.com/blogs/ticket/bobby-rush-hoodie-gets-him-tossed-house-video-153140719.html

Work?


----------



## CDG (Mar 28, 2012)

Congressman Rush is an idiot.


----------



## JBS (Mar 28, 2012)

This is what these pinheads are doing in Congress these days? What an embarrassment we have become.

I feel ashamed.






Still... I don't get the obsession with the damn hoodie, ever since the Unabomber screwed it up for everyone.


----------



## Etype (Mar 28, 2012)

How much are congressmen paid?  

Depending on your district's voters, you can either be a complete brick (this guy and the guy from GA who fears that "the KKK will soon be roaming the countryside in their white hoods"), or be a rather intelligent individual who fought hard to get where you are- Paul Ryan comes to mind.


----------



## Etype (Mar 28, 2012)

*From Bobby Rush's Wikipedia page-  This SOB should be in prison, not in office.*

*Early life, education, and political activism*

After dropping out of high school, Rush joined the U.S. Army in 1963 but went AWOL and received an honorable discharge in 1968.[2] Throughout the 1960s Rush was involved in the civil-rights movement. He worked in civil-disobedience campaigns in the South, and co-founded the Illinois chapter of the Black Panthers in 1968 and was made its "defense minister". His son, Huey, was named after Panther leader Huey Newton. "We were reacting to police brutality, to the historical relationship between African-Americans and recalcitrant racist whites," Rush later told _People_ magazine. "We needed to arm ourselves." Rush was present when fellow Black Panther Fred Hampton was killed in a police raid and later made an official statement that the police, referred only to as "pigs" by Rush, had murdered Hampton. Rush's own apartment was raided in December 1969 where police discovered an unregistered pistol, rifle, shotgun and pistol ammunition, training manuals on explosives and booby traps, a small amount of marijuana and an assortment of communist literature.[3]Earlier that same year Rush stated the philosophy his membership in the Black Panthers saying, "Black people have been on the defensive for all these years. The trend now is not to wait to be attacked. We advocate offensive violence against the power structure."[4]
Imprisoned for six months in 1972 on a weapons charge after carrying a gun into a police station, Rush nonetheless worked on several non-violent projects that built support for the Black Panthers in African American communities. He coordinated a medical clinic that offered sickle-cell anemia testing on an unprecedented scale. Rush graduated with honors from Chicago's Roosevelt University in 1973. A year later he left the Panthers, who were already in decline. "We started glorifying thuggery and drugs," he told _People_. That was distasteful to the deeply religious Rush, who is a born-again Christian. He went on to say that "I don't repudiate any of my involvement in the Panther party—it was part of my maturing."[5] He subsequently resumed his education in the early 1990s at the McCormick Seminary and received a master's degree in theology.
After leaving the Panther Party, Rush sold insurance for a time in the early 1970s.


----------



## JBS (Mar 28, 2012)

Etype said:


> How much are congressmen paid?
> 
> Depending on your district's voters, you can either be a complete brick (this guy and the guy from GA who fears that "the KKK will soon be roaming the countryside in their white hoods"), or be a rather intelligent individual who fought hard to get where you are- Paul Ryan comes to mind.


$175K, plus benefits is entry level. Up to $300K for senior positions.

But that's peanuts compared to what they make once they get elected... and after they leave office, depending on how well they look after their special interests.

*Consider why anyone would spend $2 million just to get elected to a position that pays $200K per year.* Pelosi spent more than that just in 2010.

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/expend.php?cid=N00007360&cycle=2010


----------



## Etype (Mar 28, 2012)

Rush doesn't even have a high school diploma??? Incredible.


----------



## JBS (Mar 28, 2012)

Etype said:


> Rush doesn't even have a high school diploma??? Incredible.


I thought he had a diploma, and it was posted online by the Hawaii school system after $2 million in legal fees, 2 years of incessant requests by the Right Wing nutjobs, as well as a personal, nationally televised plea by Donald Trump that was watched by 60 million Americans. Or am I getting that confused with something else?


----------



## Etype (Mar 28, 2012)

I'm not sure, I'm not even a lawyer- I don't know why I'm getting wrapped up with these legal documents.


----------



## AWP (Mar 28, 2012)

Bias? Why's the bad guy in white? Racist motherfu....


----------



## Etype (Mar 28, 2012)

Is that a modern rendition of Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow???


----------



## Brill (Mar 28, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Bias? Why's the bad guy in white? Racist motherfu....


 
Confirms the rumors: their "swords" are longer.  <--- me, wearing a hoodie.


----------



## Etype (Mar 28, 2012)

Snake Eyes is wearing Oakley boots and Storm Shadow has rags wrapped around his feet, obviously some sort of inverted reference to slavery.


----------



## AWP (Mar 28, 2012)

Etype said:


> Is that a modern rendition of Snake Eyes and Storm Shadow???


 
That's a rendition I could pull up and display on a gov't computer ,but I agree that it isn't a traditional drawing.


----------



## Etype (Mar 28, 2012)

I think it's pretty sweet.
I also think the real reason that Snake Eyes doesn't talk is because he sounds just as ridiculous as Storm Shadow, so he just keeps his mouth shut.


----------



## TH15 (Mar 29, 2012)

Alright, here's the latest crock of shit spewing out of the MSM. The police surveillance video of Zimmerman at the station was obtained by ABC. Here it is:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...orge-zimmerman/story?id=16022897#.T3SKkjGPWWY

I have read numerous articles claiming they see no evidence of any marks on the man. Which is kind of shocking because the video is kind of grainy and at a distance. You can see an officer clearly checking out the back of Zimmerman's head. And shortly after there appears to be what looks like a gash in the middle of the back of his head- approximately around the 1:06 mark. This is just my opinion though.

I haven't been to jail- but if Zimmerman was covered in blood, I would imagine they would've cleaned him up a little bit before taking him in?


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 29, 2012)

wtf... the best shots of him are obscured by the "ABC News Exclusive" banner, I can't see shit.  At about 1:26 the officer is clearly checking out the back of Zimmerman's head.  Why?  I don't know.  Maybe someone should ask the officer...

I didn't notice any conspicuous injuries, but that doesn't mean they weren't there.  And one does not have to incur conspicuous injuries to feel like his life is in danger and respond accordingly.



> Zimmerman, 28, is wearing a red and black fleece and his face and head are cleanly shaven. He appears well built, *hardly the portly young man depicted in a 2005 mug shot* that until a two days ago was the single image the media had of Zimmerman.


 
Seriously? This, but no comment about the old picture of Martin that makes him look like an innocent 12-year-old?  Great unbiased reporting.   ​


----------



## TH15 (Mar 29, 2012)

Yeah, I thought it was convenient they stuck their logo there as well. I still think you can see something on the back of his head after they lead him away after he was leaning against the wall. It could be anything though, I suppose.


----------



## AWP (Mar 29, 2012)

Eric Bischoff, a long time wrestling promoter/ businessman, wrote an auto-bio a few years ago with a very appropriate title. While it spoke about wrestling, I think it applies to media in general.

Controversy Creates Ca$h

Looking past racism, guns, or justice...that's all this is about.


----------



## 0699 (Mar 29, 2012)

You have to wonder (maybe I need to get a tin foil hat...) how much of this is "pay no attention to the man behind the curtain, here's something entertaining and inconsequential for you to get excited about while the world slowly goes to shit around you" distractions.  The whole bread & circuses thing...


----------



## fox1371 (Mar 29, 2012)

I know that the police reports and articles all state that Zimmerman was treated my EMS prior to leaving the seen.  That to me says that he was cleaned up before being brought to the station. 

I just can't imagine that the police would lie about injuries.  As far as I can see, there's no motivation for a "cover up."  Why in the hell would an LEO put their career in jeopardy?  As far as I'm concerned, they wouldn't...


----------



## AWP (Mar 29, 2012)

Another troubling aspect to me is that the shooting was on Feb. 26 and it took about 3 weeks to make the news outside of Sanford. We have this alleged racially motivated shooting of a normal 17 year old with a promising future by a trigger-happy gun-nut, wannabe-cop turned neighborhood watch volunteer, investigated by an incompetent, racist police department.

And it took 3 weeks for anyone to notice outside of Sanford to notice this brutal, over-the-top, cold-blooded "murder" with numerous witnesses? Meanwhile Kony2012 goes viral in 48 hours? And Sanford was so put out by all of this they had how many Whatever Hoodie Marches and candlelight vigils prior to CNN picking up the story? Of all of the homicides in the United States over the last month this is the ONLY one which warrants such scrutiny and press?

I try not to be a conspiracy theorist, but this whole thing smells.


----------



## Brill (Mar 29, 2012)

Obamacare before SCOTUS?


----------



## TH15 (Mar 29, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Another troubling aspect to me is that the shooting was on Feb. 26 and it took about 3 weeks to make the news outside of Sanford. We have this alleged racially motivated shooting of a normal 17 year old with a promising future by a trigger-happy gun-nut, wannabe-cop turned neighborhood watch volunteer, investigated by an incompetent, racist police department.
> 
> And it took 3 weeks for anyone to notice outside of Sanford to notice this brutal, over-the-top, cold-blooded "murder" with numerous witnesses? Meanwhile Kony2012 goes viral in 48 hours? And Sanford was so put out by all of this they had how many Whatever Hoodie Marches and candlelight vigils prior to CNN picking up the story? Of all of the homicides in the United States over the last month this is the ONLY one which warrants such scrutiny and press?
> 
> I try not to be a conspiracy theorist, but this whole thing smells.


That's so true. Kind of like the Iranian "plot" coming out as Holder was being subpoenaed.

ETA: I didn't want to pass up an opportunity to say this: Fuck Eric Holder.


----------



## policemedic (Mar 30, 2012)

fox1371 said:


> I know that the police reports and articles all state that Zimmerman was treated my EMS prior to leaving the seen. That to me says that he was cleaned up before being brought to the station.
> 
> I just can't imagine that the police would lie about injuries. As far as I can see, there's no motivation for a "cover up." Why in the hell would an LEO put their career in jeopardy? As far as I'm concerned, they wouldn't...


 
Generally, when someone is treated by EMS a chart is generated. This is true whether they accept or refuse transport to the hospital. Hell, sometimes the more detailed charts result from refusals. I'm hoping the medics didn't slough off their responsibilities and that they properly assessed Z, treated him, and then documented the whole affair. It would make excellent evidence.

ETA- Hereabouts, a refusal usually results in a telephonic report to a doc over a taped line during which the medic must provide specifics of the pt's history & physical exam so the doc can determine if a refusal is appropriate.  This would also be evidence.


----------



## Scotth (Mar 30, 2012)

I think the broken nose reports are probably the biggest question mark.  If he had a broken nose why didn't he go to the hospital?  Like others have said any potential injuries will be documents by EMS and will be worked out in the end.  This story will continue to drip drip with new angles until they decide to charge or not charge Zimmerman.

People like controversy whether they admit it or not.  I remember back in the Monica Lewinsky days.  Our local paper surveyed people and like 70+% said they were sick and tired of the story but every time the paper ran a front page story about the stained dress there circulation went up.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 30, 2012)

I remember one of the early dustups in this case being, "Why wasn't he arrested?"  In the video, he looked pretty "arrested" to me.  The fact that he was not charged is different than not being arrested.

From the little we're able to learn from the video, I think it is likely that his nose was "bloodied," not "broken."


----------



## goon175 (Mar 30, 2012)

Why is in this news? Because Obama brought it to the news. Why did he bring it to the news? A pretty conveniant national distraction from gas prices, iran, syria, (insert other obama failures), etc.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 30, 2012)

Yep; and it's a great way to re-energize a significant portion of his base in advance of the upcoming election.


----------



## Etype (Mar 30, 2012)

Here's a question I haven't heard answered or even brought up yet- It was in a gated apartment complex, did Trayvon live in said complex?

If not, then he was trespassing, not a crime to shoot him for, but definitely something to add to the discussion.


----------



## DasBoot (Mar 30, 2012)

Etype said:


> Here's a question I haven't heard answered or even brought up yet- It was in a gated apartment complex, did Trayvon live in said complex?
> 
> If not, then he was trespassing, not a crime to shoot him for, but definitely something to add to the discussion.



It was his stepmoms place.


----------



## CDG (Mar 30, 2012)

Etype said:


> Here's a question I haven't heard answered or even brought up yet- It was in a gated apartment complex, did Trayvon live in said complex?
> 
> If not, then he was trespassing, not a crime to shoot him for, but definitely something to add to the discussion.


 
The whole "gated community" thing is coming up in general now as a contributing factor in the case. Here's an excerpt from the linked article:

_Gated communities churn a vicious cycle by attracting like-minded residents who seek shelter from outsiders and whose physical seclusion then worsens paranoid groupthink against outsiders. These bunker communities remind me of those Matryoshka wooden dolls. A similar-object-within-a-similar-object serves as shelter; from community to subdivision to house, each unit relies on staggered forms of security and comfort, including town authorities, zoning practices, private security systems and personal firearms. _
_Residents’ palpable satisfaction with their communities’ virtue and their evident readiness to trumpet alarm at any given “threat” create a peculiar atmosphere — an unholy alliance of smugness and insecurity. In this us-versus-them mental landscape, them refers to new immigrants, blacks, young people, renters, non-property-owners and people perceived to be poor. _


http://www.nytimes.com/2012/03/30/opinion/the-gated-community-mentality.html


----------



## Etype (Mar 30, 2012)

I can see that the gated communities are an enemy to the socialist utopia.

Good find.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Mar 30, 2012)

Heaven forbid someone want to fucking live where they don't get broken into, vandalized, or have some asshat with a fart can on his car driving around at all hours with thumptastic tunes blaring through his "big system yo" before doing a driveby.

I'm gonna edit this a smidge, because I would like nothing more than to live in my own gated community again. Nothing better than living inside a gated community (Battalion Area) secured by your friends, which is inside a gated community (Army Base).


----------



## Etype (Mar 30, 2012)

Neighbors were a deciding factor when I bought my house.  

I'm sure if I were a politician and utter the preceding open ended sentence, I would be torn apart as a racist.


----------



## Headshot (Mar 30, 2012)

I had some kids playing chicken with cars in our neighborhood until they did it to me and I stopped and got out.  Later their parents were at my door and they got the same dose about their perfect little innocent booger eaters punking up my street.  It hasn't happened since.  The popo don't always need to get involved if people will stop being cowards and police themselves and hold one another accountable.  One of the parents asked how I knew it was their kid doing it, I told them I could pick his face out of a crowd at Disney over CCTV.  I looked at the kid and told him to do it again if he felt the need and I would drag him by the ear to his doorstep next time.  His dad came to my door the next evening to thank me and told me about the ass whoopin his boy got, and told me it was ok to call his boy out anytime I saw him involved in anything that would bring disgrace on our subdivision.  There are only 110 houses, one way in and out with about 30 Vets.  Most of us grew up in this town and will not put up with needless shit from kids whose parents won't do the job.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Mar 30, 2012)

The kids in my neighborhood knew that if they were playing around/in the road, heard my truck start up then me come running out to get to the side of the road because I was going to work.

Especially after I had to respond to the house down the street blowing up and burning down.  Halfway through I had to piss like a racehorse so I just tromped down the street w/ my turnouts, scba etc on and went to piss in my backyard. LOL


----------



## CDG (Mar 30, 2012)

Is anybody else watching the CNN special "Beyond Trayvon" with Soledad O' Brien?  They have Curtis Sliwa, the founder of the Guardian Angels, on right now.  This guy comes off as a real clown.  He just said, "I know there were young men of all colors with hoodies on walking through that night. But Zimmerman fixated on that one."  So this guy was apparently there as well, along with everyone else in the audience.  At the beginning of the show, the host asked the audience how many already had an opinion on what happened.  95% of people raised their hands.    Zimmerman is being ripped for being armed, and one person has said that it is illegal for a Neighborhood Watch Captain to be armed.  One other gem that has come out is someone questioning why people need to describe the race of a person when reporting something to the police.  Apparently it should stop at male/female and we'll just let the cops play pin the tail on the fucking donkey from there.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 30, 2012)

CDG said:


> Is anybody else watching the CNN special "Beyond Trayvon" with Soledad O' Brien? They have Curtis Sliwa, the founder of the Guardian Angels, on right now. This guy comes off as a real clown. He just said, "I know there were young men of all colors with hoodies on walking through that night. But Zimmerman fixated on that one." So this guy was apparently there as well, along with everyone else in the audience. At the beginning of the show, the host asked the audience how many already had an opinion on what happened. 95% of people raised their hands.  Zimmerman is being ripped for being armed, and one person has said that it is illegal for a Neighborhood Watch Captain to be armed. *One other gem that has come out is someone questioning why people need to describe the race of a person when reporting something to the police. Apparently it should stop at male/female and we'll just let the cops play pin the tail on the fucking donkey from there*.


 
This is exactly what happens here.  Our school is located adjacent to a high-crime area, and we frequently get updates from the campus chief of police when incidents occur.  "A graduate student was robbed by a male.  Anyone with information about this crime..."  No physical description of the suspect.


----------



## Etype (Mar 31, 2012)

Newly released audio between Zimmerman and Lindy catches Lindy proclaiming-


lindy said:


> _Let's sneak up and cornhole that guy!_


 
Boy, it's so fun to play, "democrat media put things in a different context," and easy.


----------



## 0699 (Mar 31, 2012)

Ranger Psych said:


> Heaven forbid someone want to fucking live where they don't get broken into, vandalized, or have some asshat with a fart can on his car driving around at all hours with thumptastic tunes blaring through his "big system yo" before doing a driveby.
> 
> I'm gonna edit this a smidge, because *I would like nothing more than to live in my own gated community again*. Nothing better than living inside a gated community (Battalion Area) secured by your friends, which is inside a gated community (Army Base).


 
On Camp Lejeune, we used to refer to it as "the largest gated community in NC". 

There are only eight houses on my street. I have zero issues walking up to cars I don't recognize and asking if I can be of any help.


----------



## AWP (Mar 31, 2012)

In FL, gated communities tend to be the devil, mostly because of the HOA's that exist. My BIL grew up in one and his dad bought a Harley. After riding it once, he was told he could no longer do that because of the noise of said bike. Eventually the "solution" was that he could only ride his bike during certain hours.  Two former co-workers ran into similar situations over noise, a flagpole, and parking. A gated community without an abusive HOA would probably work, but they don't in FL.


----------



## BFS Cat (Mar 31, 2012)

not fond of gated communities, I live in Bermuda Run, aka uber whiteville.  I moved there because it was convenient for having my dog.   A few days ago I was driving the 90 Honda, aka the pupmobile, taking it out to get it inspected.  I didn't have a car pass on it.  I drive to the gate guard to have him raise the barrier to let me back in.  He asked who I was visiting and I said I wasn't.  He said 'oh that's right you're the maid"  I was not amused.


----------



## CDG (Mar 31, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> This is exactly what happens here. Our school is located adjacent to a high-crime area, and we frequently get updates from the campus chief of police when incidents occur. "A graduate student was robbed by a male. Anyone with information about this crime..." No physical description of the suspect.


 
The absurdity of this is so obvious, and yet people continue to insist this is a good idea.  Likely those same people are the ones questioning why the police can't catch the burglary suspect in their neighborhood in a sufficient amount of time.  I mean, they know it's a male between 20-35 who was wearing jeans and a dark sweatshirt.  What more do those damn po-po need?


----------



## Ranger Psych (Mar 31, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> In FL, gated communities tend to be the devil, mostly because of the HOA's that exist. My BIL grew up in one and his dad bought a Harley. After riding it once, he was told he could no longer do that because of the noise of said bike. Eventually the "solution" was that he could only ride his bike during certain hours. Two former co-workers ran into similar situations over noise, a flagpole, and parking. A gated community without an abusive HOA would probably work, but they don't in FL.


 

I guess my stipulation/caveat is that I'd be running the gated community if I moved back into one.

Because I'd have won the powerball.

And it'd be a 1000+ acre compound w/ subdivision for family. And a barracks for SOF Buddies to come visit at.  And a shooting facility. And an airstrip. etc, etc, ad nauseum....


----------



## SpitfireV (Mar 31, 2012)

I've made my views on HOAs clear here before so I'll just recap by saying they should fuck off and mind their own.

Or, just to wind things up a bit, you could argue it's worse than big brother in the UK and I thought you guys fought to get rid of oppression and shit. ;)

Body corporates in apartment blocks here are sometimes just about as bad.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 31, 2012)

CDG said:


> The absurdity of this is so obvious, and yet people continue to insist this is a good idea. Likely those same people are the ones questioning why the police can't catch the burglary suspect in their neighborhood in a sufficient amount of time. I mean, they know it's a male between 20-35 who was wearing jeans and a dark sweatshirt. What more do those damn po-po need?


 
Here is an example of what I'm talking about, this message is edited to delete the names of schools, streets, and the chief of police.

To the XXXXX Community: 
I write to let you know that a robbery occurred this morning around 9:45 at XXXXX.    The victim, who is not a member of the XXXXX community, was approached by *two teenaged males* who robbed him of his wallet and cell phone.  No injuries were reported and theXXXXX are investigating.   
*If you have any information about this incident* or should observe any suspicious activity, please call the XXXXX Police at XXXXX or text your anonymous tip to XXXXX, begin the stream with XXXXXtip. 
This weekend, XXXXXPolice apprehended several young offenders on or near campus, including one 13-year old male who punched a graduate student at 1:30 this morning near XXXXX.  The graduate student summoned help quickly by using a blue phone, resulting in a quick apprehension of the suspect by XXXXX Police. 
With spring weather approaching, more people are out and about throughout the city.  As a reminder, please be aware of your surroundings at all times, avoid displaying valuables and walking alone after dark, note the location of emergency Blue Phones, and make use of security services, including shuttle services and door-to-door rides after dark, by calling XXXXX  The XXXXX Police also provide services and information for victims of crimes, which you may access by calling XXXXX. 
Sincerely, 
XXXXX, Chief of Police

An absolutely useless physical description followed in the very next sentence by "if you have any information."

Hell I saw lots of teenaged males today, I better jump on that tipline!


----------



## AWP (Mar 31, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> Here is an example of what I'm talking about,


 
Sooooo, is this a case of Intel driving Operations or Operations driving Intel?


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 31, 2012)

:)

This is an example of ops (the police) doing a cover-my-ass, check-the-block when it comes to reporting on/near-campus crime, putting the rest of us at risk by not putting out accurate descriptions of suspects who might be a threat to our personal safety.

"The law says we have to report it, the law doesn't say we have to report anything meaningful."


----------



## 0699 (Apr 1, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> In FL, gated communities tend to be the devil, mostly because of the HOA's that exist. My BIL grew up in one and his dad bought a Harley. After riding it once, he was told he could no longer do that because of the noise of said bike. Eventually the "solution" was that he could only ride his bike during certain hours. Two former co-workers ran into similar situations over noise, a flagpole, and parking. A gated community without an abusive HOA would probably work, but they don't in FL.


 
The nice thing about gated communities in the US; if you don't like them, don't live there.  Some people do like gated communities and they choose to live there.


----------



## TH15 (Apr 1, 2012)

Apparently Al Sharpton wants to "escalate" matters.



> If George Zimmerman is not arrested in the shooting death of Trayvon Martin soon, the Rev. Al Sharpton will call for an escalation in peaceful civil disobedience and economic sanctions.​​Sharpton would not say the efforts would be taken against the city of Sanford specifically, but he has been critical of the police department's handling of the case.​
> Saturday's scheduled 11 a.m. march from Crooms Academy of Information Technology to the Sanford Police Department headquarters was organized by National Association for the Advancement of Colored People. Coordinators said people will be bused in from other states to participate.​The civil rights activist and syndicated television show host said he will elaborate on this plan Saturday.​"I will speak about how the National Action Network will move to the next level if Zimmerman isn't arrested," said Sharpton, who founded the Network. He added that it was the Martin family and lawyers who first asked him to get involved and nationalize this story.​The Rev. Jesse Jackson is also expected to participate in the event.​The case has ignited ire and debate across the nation, galvanizing thousands of Trayvon supporters to the streets and social media, donning hoodies and toting Skittles.​Sanford police this week released a video of a handcuffed George Zimmerman apparently showing no visible signs of physical injury after he claimed that he shot the 17-year-old Miami teenager in self-defense.​Zimmerman's family have come to his defense on national news networks, releasing details about his version of what happened the night of Feb. 26 when police found the teen face down in wet grass.​Sharpton said the recent revelations only underscores the need for an immediate arrest and trial.​"Whether he [Zimmerman] had a swollen or broken nose, neither one means he had to take a 9mm and kill someone," he said. "It's not about saying Zimmerman is innocent or guilty, this is about whether there was probable cause to arrest him."​He criticized the way authorities have released information about the case and said they are setting a harmful precedent, he said.​Sanford city officials announced several road closures in anticipation of the march including 13th street, from U.S. Highway 17-92 to Lake Avenue; as well as, Persimmon Street from McCracken Road to 13th.​The demonstration is expected to end at 2 p.m., organizers said.​


http://articles.orlandosentinel.com...-national-action-network-national-association

Also, here's a video of Piers Morgan getting into it with an MSNBC contributor over this case. I think this is the first time I have sided with Piers.
http://www.breitbart.com/Breitbart-TV?id={F85B2E66-5AD0-4ECA-B114-FACBEAEF4917}&title=Toure-To-Piers-Morgan-You-Dont-Understand-Black-Humor-America-Or-Seriousness-Of-Zimmerman-Case


----------



## SkrewzLoose (Apr 1, 2012)

Because the Rev was there to know for sure if probable cause existed or not...


----------



## JBS (Apr 2, 2012)

Zimmerman's head wounds revealed in forensically enhanced video (ABC News):






Trivial details ...


----------



## JBS (Apr 2, 2012)

*NBC News Modified Their Audio Taped 911 Call To Make Zimmerman Sound "Racist"*

Investigation on spliced and doctored audio
http://www.nymag.com/daily/intel/2012/04/nbc-investigating-segment-on-zimmerman-call.html?imw=Y




> The editorial decision under review involves the removal of the dispatcher's inquiry about the race of the person Zimmerman was following — Martin. Absent that question, Zimmerman's comments get strung together as if he said, in sequence, "This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black."
> The Washington _Post _provides the full transcript of that part of the call:
> Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.​Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?​Zimmerman: He looks black.​


----------



## AWP (Apr 2, 2012)

All the more reason that this case is hyped and driven by forces with an agenda.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Apr 2, 2012)

Ok, here's a question:

With everyone focused on this crap which is like 1 degree of the perimeter.... who's looking at the rest of things, and what's going on?

Obviously we have the strip search bit, but what else is going on in the middle of this sensationalism which is capturing the headlines?

Spidey sense says with THIS MUCH STINK about a local case, there's gotta be a flanking movement going on for some crazy shit.


----------



## policemedic (Apr 2, 2012)

Well, there's the total denigration of the function of the SCOTUS by POTUS.


----------



## TH15 (Apr 2, 2012)

policemedic said:


> Well, there's the total denigration of the function of the SCOTUS by POTUS.


I saw that. You don't say something like that period if you're a good, decent American who doesn't suck from the Saul Alinsky nipple.

Didn't Mr. Obama teach constitutional law? He should, then, have been familiar with checks & balances. Threatening the Supreme Court and saying that you're not worried your trademark law won't get struck down tells me that he is indeed very worried. And he should be. This reminds me of FDR throwing a hissy fit and threatening to stack the deck in SCOTUS unless his New Deal was passed.

Sorry for the rant. POTUS drives me mad.


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 2, 2012)

I do find it interesting though how the courts will rule in this case. The entire facts of the case are not known, but from what little we do know I wonder how the "Stand your ground" law will work out. Personally I am glad the law was passed. It's important people be able to defend themselves and their loved ones.

My meaning.... One version of events states that man followed kid (forget that the dispatcher told him he shouldn't because she has no authority). Now if that version was the case, and he followed the kid, and the kid turned around and confronted him (forget the specifics at this state). What's important is a fight ensued... I'm wondering if by him creating his own exigent circumstances, which required him to use deadly force, Is this a proper use of the stand your ground law? It's a question that has been bugging me. Now the above scenario is only one possible scenario of what could have happened. I'm more curious how the courts will interpret the law and if it will stand up to the light of day.


----------



## x SF med (Apr 2, 2012)

0699 said:


> On Camp Lejeune, we used to refer to it as "the largest gated community in NC".
> 
> There are only eight houses on my street. I have zero issues walking up to cars I don't recognize and asking if I can be of any help.


 
Your neighbors asked who we were when we walked on the street and they didn't know us....  then wondered if we were right in the head when we said we were visiting you...  and I know that at least 3 of the neighbors we met were armed, they printed very nicely...


----------



## WittyName (Apr 2, 2012)

I'm kind of concerned by this whole situation, though I haven't payed much attention to it, in fact I avoid it in conversation. Why is it that I feel like if I were to bring up that I never considered Zimmerman to necessarily be the "bad guy" in this situation, everyone would look at me like I'm an ass?
After seeing the interview with his brother on that Piers Morgan show (where I learned that I do not respect Morgan very much at all)  I honestly believe that both Martin and Zimmerman believed that they were defending themselves, and both made poor decisions that led up to the confrontation in the first place.
Though Martin's fate is unfortunate, I do hope that the stand your ground law holds up in court.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Apr 3, 2012)

I never thought zimmerman was the bad guy in the first place when the first report came out, but I also know that I don't have all the facts that are admissable to the grand jury for the indictment.


----------



## JBS (Apr 3, 2012)

Ranger Psych said:


> I never thought zimmerman was the bad guy in the first place when the first report came out, but I also know that I don't have all the facts that are admissable to the grand jury for the indictment.


Zimmerman has been excoriated in the media, tried and convicted in the court of public opinion and is_ literally in hiding for his life._

Just to recap the handling of this so far:

CBS News blatantly and unabashedly *doctored the audio tape* to make Zimmerman appear racist
To date, little or nothing has been said about the fact that Zimmerman is hispanic
To date, little mention that Zimmerman volunteered his weekends to mentor and tutor "At Risk" inner city youth, most of which were black
No mention of Zimmerman attending a 16 week basic community and law enforcement course
No mention of the numerous crimes Zimmerman helped in preventing
Photographs of an* 11-year-old* Trayvon Martin were run across the media as representative of the victim, despite the fact that Martin was actually *17* years old, a footballer and 6'3".
Photographs of Zimmerman show him in some kind of orange clothing, resembling a county inmate jumpsuit;
Few or no pictures of Zimmerman appear in the mainstream media showing him wearing a tie or appearing respectable
Most of the photographs of Zimmerman appear to be zoomed in, especially when posted immediately next to those of the boyish Martin, to enhance the appearance of size disparity
The following are actual "side-by-side" shots that were posted by American mainstream media sources. In a few of the photographs displayed in newspapers and on television across the US, Martin is less than 12 years old.
















Yet you never see this picture:


----------



## AWP (Apr 3, 2012)

I've lamented the decline in manufacturing in the US, but there's one area where we "Lead the Way" and that is in manufacturing a crisis. Sorry, America, but if you live outside of Seminole County, FL you shouldn't even know this case exists.

When the Sandusky scandal broke a  lot of us, myself included, were eager to burn him at the stake. While I still think we're right about that he deserves his day in court. What I found troubling about the whole deal was that a week or two later the prosecution's star witness was found to have more or less perjured himself...and we heard almost nothing about it.

For a system predicated on the rule of law and a jury of our peers we've increasingly become a system of mob rule driven by the media and who/whatever is pulling their strings. Looking at a couple of surveys over the last few years, anywhere from 55 to 73% of Americans don't trust the media or believe the stories are inaccurate.

So over half of our country believes the media to be incorrect and yet we STILL buy into what is being reported and allow ourselves to foam at the mouth over stories like this.

We're idiots.


----------



## JBS (Apr 3, 2012)

I particularly enjoy studying the systems of control and manipulation used by entities- be it the mainstream media, governmental mouthpieces, insurgent groups- to observe how they can influence public opinion to advance a cause. In some cases I feel we can also observe where mass manipulation occurs not necessarily to advance a cause, but occasionally to cause political friction for another cause. Many times it can be subtle details, such as a word being put in quotation marks, the omission of parts of a story, or use of imagery directly before or after the target of a story, to "spike" the impressions given to the viewer.

Once we can clearly see the tools of manipulation, we can avoid being swayed in a direction we don't necessarily want to go- with our dollars or our passive support.

It's almost like going to a 20-hour car salesman's training course, and then walking on the local car lot and becoming immune to influence.


----------



## Etype (Apr 3, 2012)

All these pictures of Trayvon riding horses and snowboarding probably came from his time at 'troubled youth camp.'


----------



## Scotth (Apr 3, 2012)

policemedic said:


> Well, there's the total denigration of the function of the SCOTUS by POTUS.


 
It could be argued that the SCOTUS made it political when they took the hot button issue on in an election year.

That is from a guy who hopes the SCOTUS strikes down the whole law.


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 3, 2012)

Scotth said:


> It could be argued that the SCOTUS made it political when they took the hot button issue on in an election year.
> 
> That is from a guy who hopes the SCOTUS strikes down the whole law.


Which law? Obama-Care? or Stand your ground?


----------



## Scotth (Apr 3, 2012)

ke4gde said:


> Which law? Obama-Care? or Stand your ground?


 
I believe PoliceMedic was referring to the President's comments on the SCOTUS overturning Obama-Care and that what I was directing my comments towards.  I'm hoping that the whole Obama-Care legislation gets thrown out but that kind of side tracks the thread.


----------



## policemedic (Apr 3, 2012)

Scotth said:


> I believe PoliceMedic was referring to the President's comments on the SCOTUS overturning Obama-Care and that what I was directing my comments towards.  I'm hoping that the whole Obama-Care legislation gets thrown out but that kind of side tracks the thread.



Exactly.


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 3, 2012)

Scotth said:


> I believe PoliceMedic was referring to the President's comments on the SCOTUS overturning Obama-Care and that what I was directing my comments towards. I'm hoping that the whole Obama-Care legislation gets thrown out but that kind of side tracks the thread.


Gotcha. Just wanted to understand which one you meant. Thank you.


----------



## policemedic (Apr 3, 2012)

Scotth said:


> It could be argued that the SCOTUS made it political when they took the hot button issue on in an election year.
> 
> That is from a guy who hopes the SCOTUS strikes down the whole law.



I see your point but SCOTUS doesn't solicit or pick cases to review on its own.   The Obamacare litigation was submitted to the Court at a particular time consistent with its travel through the appellate courts and landed on the docket when it did.  

I also think the argument can be made that many SCOTUS decisions have political ramifications but I don't think that is the goal of the Court.


----------



## CDG (Apr 3, 2012)

policemedic said:


> I also think the argument can be made that many SCOTUS decisions have political ramifications but I don't think that is the goal of the Court.


 
I disagree with this part.  I think the SC  Justices have been inserting, or attempting to insert, their own personal politics into decisions for a LONG time.  I do not think they always have the law or the Constitution in mind when making rulings.


----------



## Scotth (Apr 3, 2012)

policemedic said:


> I see your point but SCOTUS doesn't solicit or pick cases to review on its own. The Obamacare litigation was submitted to the Court at a particular time consistent with its travel through the appellate courts and landed on the docket when it did.
> 
> I also think the argument can be made that many SCOTUS decisions have political ramifications but I don't think that is the goal of the Court.


 
Well we will have to agree to disagree. The court is petition to review 4500 cases a year and decide only 200 cases. They have a lot of latitude on which cases they hear and there is law and legal precedent that the court will not hear a tax collection issue until the law is actually in effect. It was called the Anti-Injuction Act and in a nutshell says pay first and litigate later and that could have given them the wiggle room to avoid the issue if they chose to.
http://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/7421

Two separate courts ruled exactly that that was the case.
http://www.cadc.uscourts.gov/intern...D7A8525794200579735/$file/11-5047-1340594.pdf
http://pacer.ca4.uscourts.gov/opinion.pdf/102347.P.pdf

Like I said it was a bad law and I'm sick of all the arguing about it. I hope the whole thing gets jettisoned.

There will come a tipping-point for health care in this country and it may take 10-20 years to get to that point. When that day comes there will be whole sale changes made to the system because the cost of the current system will get so out of hand and so many people will be without any health care that the American public will demand change. All the people opposed to real change today will look back fondly at what little real change Obama-care made to the system.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 3, 2012)




----------



## 0699 (Apr 4, 2012)

x SF med said:


> Your neighbors asked who we were when we walked on the street and they didn't know us.... *then wondered if we were right in the head when we said we were visiting you...* and I know that at least 3 of the neighbors we met were armed, they printed very nicely...


----------



## LimaOscarSierraTango (Apr 4, 2012)

Well, well, well...



> NBC has completed its investigation into the mishandling of the police dispatcher’s conversation with George Zimmerman in the Trayvon Martin case. And the process ends with a finding of error, plus an apology. Here is the statement just issued by the network:
> During our investigation it became evident that there was an error made in the production process that we deeply regret. We will be taking the necessary steps to prevent this from happening in the future and apologize to our viewers.​That apology addresses the “Today” show’s failure to abridge accurately the conversation between Zimmerman and the dispatcher in this high-profile case. This is how the program portrayed a segment of that conversation:
> Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. He looks black.​And here is how it actually went down:
> Zimmerman: This guy looks like he’s up to no good. Or he’s on drugs or something. It’s raining and he’s just walking around, looking about.​Dispatcher: OK, and this guy — is he black, white or Hispanic?​Zimmerman: He looks black.​No matter how you feel about Zimmerman, that bit of tape editing was unfair to the truth and to Zimmerman’s reputation, such as it is. Reaction on Twitter and elsewhere to my previous post on this matter, was brutal toward NBC, with many comments suggesting the worst about the network’s motivations, reliability and so on.
> Does the statement adequately address those concerns? On the good front, it acknowledges the mistake and apologizes to viewers for the bad editing. It’s a forthright correction and spares us any excuses about the faulty portrayal. On the bad front, the statement is skimpy on the details on just how the mistake unfolded. Nor does it articulate an apology directly to George Zimmerman, the “viewer” who is most aggrieved by the screw-up. In light of all that’s happened, Zimmerman may be a tough person for a news network to apologize to, but that’s just the point: Apologies are hard.


 
SOURCE


----------



## TH15 (Apr 4, 2012)

> During our investigation it became evident that there was an error made in the production process that we deeply regret.​


Translation: We're only sorry because someone called us out and we got caught.



> We will be taking the necessary steps to prevent this from happening in the future and apologize to our viewers.​


Translation: We will do this again when the right time comes. We're sorry to our viewers....but George Zimmerman can go fuck himself.


----------



## pardus (Apr 4, 2012)

Anyone in the media that was and is complicit in the slandering of Zimmerman and turning this into a race issue and anyone who is a "supporter" of the dirtbag who was killed can go fuck themselves IMO.

I'm fucking sick of this and the way this country is heading with regards to race.
Sorry, but NO you dont get a free pass if you're black, now that the POTUS is half black, and NO white people aren't the devil now. 
That irritates me more than anything, that the media is so fucked up they made this a black white issue when there was no white person involved in the whole fucking affair!


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 4, 2012)

pardus said:


> Anyone in the media that was and is complicit in the slandering of Zimmerman and turning this into a race issue and anyone who is a "supporter" of the dirtbag who was killed can go fuck themselves IMO.
> 
> I'm fucking sick of this and the way this country is heading with regards to race.
> Sorry, but NO you dont get a free pass if you're black, now that the POTUS is half black, and NO white people aren't the devil now.
> That irritates me more than anything, that the media is so fucked up they made this a black white issue when there was *no white* person involved in the whole fucking affair!


While I completely agree with how you feel, one part is slightly incorrect..... Zimmerman is a white Hispanic. Being Hispanic is not a race it is an ethnicity. There are black and white Hispanics. From what his father said publicly he has both sides in his family. So technically he is probably a bit of both. :nerd:


----------



## 0699 (Apr 4, 2012)

pardus said:


> Anyone in the media that was and is complicit in the slandering of Zimmerman and turning this into a race issue and anyone who is a "supporter" of the dirtbag who was killed can go fuck themselves IMO.
> 
> I'm fucking sick of this and the way this country is heading with regards to race.
> Sorry, but NO you dont get a free pass if you're black, now that the POTUS is half black, and *NO white people aren't the devil now*.
> That irritates me more than anything, that the media is so fucked up they made this a black white issue when there was no white person involved in the whole fucking affair!


 
Some are.


----------



## Brill (Apr 4, 2012)

Racism is total bullshit and appears to be political guilt for being born with different skin color.  Life is determined by free will, hard work, and preparation met with opportunity.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...ithet/2012/04/04/gIQA5hIgvS_blog.html?hpid=z4

Stay classy Marion; crack is whack.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 4, 2012)

Here is an interesting article on the situation.


----------



## JBS (Apr 5, 2012)

Wow... someone with guts enough to call a spade a spade. Liberalism is a mental disorder.


> ...Juan Williams’s Wall Street Journal article sums up what black activists are conveniently ignoring in their outrage over a single black teen’s death: that “nationally, nearly half of all murder victims are black. And the overwhelming majority of those black people are killed by other black people.”
> 
> Instead of wearing hoodies and participating in what I call hollow racial protests, the NAACP, black congressmen and concerned citizens need to be showing outrage at the cancer called the breakdown of the American black family. Since the 1960s, the crumbling black family has led to more black men in prison, greater number of high school dropouts, suspensions, etc. Finally, the biggest problem is 70 percent of black children are born to unwed mothers.


 
70%


----------



## Scotth (Apr 5, 2012)

It isn't Liberalism or any other mass generalization of a group of people.  I will be the first to say piss on Sharpton and Jackson.  I met Jesse Jackson and he is literally an idiot in the same way Sarah Palin is.  Get either one beyond a talking point and you find out the true nature of there intellect or lack of it.  Sharpton and Jackson are both opportunistic vultures ready to exploit any tragedy  to push there personal agendas.  There are people on both sides of the isle ready to do the same thing and I will refrain from offering example for the sake of not side tracking the thread.

I have a problem with what happened and it has nothing to do with race and so do a lot of other people.  There has been a lot of stupid crap said from all sides but the good news is there will be a thorough investigation of the incident and the parents will hopefully get better answers when it is all said and done.


----------



## JBS (Apr 5, 2012)

Scotth said:


> It isn't Liberalism ...


I would love to debate that point (in another thread). I feel the facts would strongly support my position. Liberalism has driven the African American community into the ground and kept it there for decades.

The tools so zealously guarded and defended by Liberals (gonna piss off some people now), such as unbridled and unfettered abortions on a mass scale are disproportionately carried out in the black community. You want to talk about racism? Do a Google search of the FOUNDER of the modern abortion movement- Margaret Sanger- who TO THIS DAY is held up by Liberals as a model Progressive Liberal.


> She conspired with eugenics financier and businessman Clarence Gamble to “hire three or four colored ministers, preferably with social-service backgrounds, and with engaging personalities” to sell their genocidal policies as community health and welfare services.
> 
> Outright murder wouldn’t sell. But wrapping it under the egalitarian cloak of “women’s health” — and adorning it with the moral authority of black churches — would. Sanger and Gamble called their deadly campaign “The Negro Project.”


 
Sanger, the greatest killer of black babies in America is praised by Hillary Clinton:

http://www.weeklystandard.com/weblogs/TWSFP/2009/04/sec_clinton_stands_by_her_prai.asp

Libs have sold African Americans a bill of goods and laughed about it all along, as the black community forms up in lock step to support the very policies that have promoted their difficult conditions, rather than finally solved them.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 5, 2012)

JBS said:


> I would love to debate that point (in another thread). I feel the facts would strongly support my position.


 
Start one.  As long as everyone can act like grownups, I think it would be a very good discussion.


----------



## LimaOscarSierraTango (Apr 5, 2012)

JBS said:


> Wow... someone with guts enough to call a spade a spade. Liberalism is a mental disorder.


 
Just for Scott.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 5, 2012)

A Scott vs. JBS discussion on this topic would likely be very informative, and probably highly entertaining.  It would also be nice if Bravo Five Romeo  would come back around and chime in every once in a while.


----------



## reed11b (Apr 5, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> A Scott vs. JBS discussion on this topic would likely be very informative, and probably highly entertaining. It would also be nice if Bravo Five Romeo would come back around and chime in every once in a while.


 That's the first time I have ever heard anyone say "I wish B5R was participating in this thread" ever. I'll fire him of a PM on the "other" site.
Reed


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 5, 2012)

reed11b said:


> That's the first time I have ever heard anyone say "I wish B5R was participating in this thread" ever. I'll fire him of a PM on the "other" site.
> Reed


 
lol

B5R is extraordinarily well-informed and knows how to make a coherent argument without resulting to juvenile tactics or getting all butt-hurt when people don't agree with him.

Of course, I still think he's wrong most of time time... ;)


----------



## x SF med (Apr 5, 2012)

Scotth said:


> It isn't Liberalism or any other mass generalization of a group of people. I will be the first to say piss on Sharpton and Jackson. I met Jesse Jackson and he is literally an idiot in the same way Sarah Palin is. Get either one beyond a talking point and you find out the true nature of there intellect or lack of it. Sharpton and Jackson are both opportunistic vultures ready to exploit any tragedy to push there personal agendas. There are people on both sides of the isle ready to do the same thing and I will refrain from offering example for the sake of not side tracking the thread.
> 
> I have a problem with what happened and it has nothing to do with race and so do a lot of other people. There has been a lot of stupid crap said from all sides but the good news is there will be a thorough investigation of the incident and the parents will hopefully get better answers when it is all said and done.


 
Armageddon is here, get under your desks, roll into a ball, and kiss your assess goodbye....  I'm agreeing with Scotth :ehh:

One of the initial reasons I have never had respect for Sharpton, Jackson and their ilk....  case in point Tawana Brawley.   This current case is nothing new for these guys, they have been fomenting dissent and racial discontent for decades.  They offer to help lower the boiling point instead of actually doing something to change what they see as injustice...  Stir the pot instead of educate and elevate.  They are as complicit in the current furor as is the MSM, NBC in particular in making this a larger issue than it should be.

Whatever happened - both sides (Zimmerman and Williams) appear to have been wrong in some way in this situation...  I wasn't there, I don't know.  But the assclowns that state with conviction that they know what happened and that it was certain that either side was wrong or right are just looking for attention.

Let this play out properly in the police investigations and courts of law - don't turn it into a Helter-Skelter race situation promulgated by either side.

Argh.


----------



## pardus (Apr 5, 2012)

Forgive me, I thought the police already investigated this?


----------



## x SF med (Apr 5, 2012)

pardus said:


> Forgive me, I thought the police already investigated this?


 
I believe it is still under investigation.  The media circus surrounding this isn't helping the investigation, nor is the 'uproar' caused by the shit stirrers.  IMHO, both of the pricipals in this mess appear to have complicity in how this played out and both sides are at fault to a greater or lesser degree.


----------



## pardus (Apr 5, 2012)

x SF med said:


> IMHO, both of the pricipals in this mess appear to have complicity in how this played out and both sides are at fault to a greater or lesser degree.


 
Seems like it.


----------



## JBS (Apr 6, 2012)

*U.N. Calls for Trayvon Martin Human Rights Abuse Investigation*

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...man-rights-chief-calls-for-investigation.html



> "As High Commissioner for Human Rights, I call for an immediate investigation," she said.
> 
> "Justice must be done for the victim. It's not just this individual case. It calls into question the delivery of justice in all situations like this."


OMFG, that's rich.


----------



## policemedic (Apr 6, 2012)

Remind me again why we subsidize that international organized crime group in NYC?


----------



## pardus (Apr 6, 2012)

FUCK THE UN!


----------



## TH15 (Apr 6, 2012)

> Neighbourhood watch captain George Zimmerman,* a white Hispanic*, fatally shot 17-year-old Martin inside a gated community in the Florida town of Sanford on February 26.


White Hispanic?!? I just got a brand new 6 pack from laughing that off. Holy shit. That's like calling someone a white African-American.


----------



## JBS (Apr 6, 2012)

TH15 said:


> White Hispanic?!? I just got a brand new 6 pack from laughing that off. Holy shit. That's like calling someone a white African-American.


Mmm... technically, although I'm not certain it is true in the case of Zimmerman, there are Hispanics from - say- certain S. American countries (for example where big populations of Germans, French and Dutch migrated) and Spain that are white in the European sense. And there are white African Americans, too, LOL. Two of my friends in HS were whites from S. Africa who came to the US, brought by their father to get away from the violence, and they were white as can be. They used to go up to black people, and say with that Afrikaaner accent, "hey man, I'm more African than you!", and everyone would laugh.

At the very least, maybe they (the paper) deserve half credit for showing that Zimmerman was a minority. I think that's the point. It was an incident between two minorities, whereas the rest of the media want to push the white-vs.-black thing.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 6, 2012)

> *U.N. Calls for Trayvon Martin Human Rights Abuse Investigation*
> 
> http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...man-rights-chief-calls-for-investigation.html





> "The law should operate equally in respect of all violations. I will be awaiting an investigation and prosecution and trial *and of course reparations* for the victims concerned," Ms Pillay said.


 
The is more bullshit political posturing by people who are going off half-cocked in the absence of facts to advance their own personal agendas.  If she thinks reparations are in order, it means she has already made up her mind about the case, and not only Zimmerman guilty, but so is the United States as a country.  Do you know what the term "reparations" means when it is coming from the UN Human Rights chief?  -->  measures taken by the state to redress gross and systematic violations of human rights law or humanitarian law  .  Think about that for a moment.  The chief of the UN Human Rights High Commission has already made up her mind about this case, and has determined that it is a result of "gross and systematic violations of human rights."    So much for objectivity.  I guess it's a good thing for us that the UN is almost totally irrelevant.  Next you'll be hearing about someone from the UN is going to stop the fighting in Syria.  Oh wait...



TH15 said:


> White Hispanic?!? I just got a brand new 6 pack from laughing that off. Holy shit. That's like calling someone a white African-American.


 
While the term is technically correct, it is used by the press to keep casting this in racial tones, particularly black/white.  Why is it being done?  Because no one seems to care when it's minority-on-minority violence.  There is no fame in crusading against minority violence, and more importantly, there is no money in it.  But make this black/white, even tangentially, and boy do you have something there!  Especially when you can throw up pictures from five years ago that show a young innocent boy against a clearly guilty (because he's wearing prison orange) grown man, and if you can edit audio to take things completely out of context.  

This whole case is rotten, top to bottom.


----------



## DasBoot (Apr 6, 2012)

TH15 said:


> White Hispanic?!? I just got a brand new 6 pack from laughing that off. Holy shit. That's like calling someone a white African-American.


Someone can be, say, Argentinian with all of their ancestors coming from Germany And Italy, and they'd still be Hispanic. Or Cubans who are descendants of Arabs- still Hispanic. Not trying to dogpile just giving a few examples


----------



## TH15 (Apr 6, 2012)

No, I understand exactly what everyone is saying. I'm not _that_ stupid, guys. ;) I was just trying to point out that they're exploiting the fact he is "part white" to make this white vs. black and how ridiculous it was.


----------



## DasBoot (Apr 6, 2012)

TH15 said:


> No, I understand exactly what everyone is saying. I'm not _that_ stupid, guys. ;) I was just trying to point out that they're exploiting the fact he is "part white" to make this white vs. black and how ridiculous it was.


I get what you're saying. I feel the same way- most people I know, no matter what their "race" , if they're Hispanic/Latino, they usually identify as the latter and not as "white" or "black"


----------



## TH15 (Apr 6, 2012)

This is the first article I have seen from a major news outlet portraying Zimmerman in at least a semi-positive manner.


> SANFORD, Fla. — New analysis of calls to police made by George Zimmerman, who shot and killed 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, show a man who never offered up race as a descriptor of suspicious people in the neighborhood watch area until being prompted by a dispatcher.  On the calls he made to Sanford, Fla., police he seems reluctant to take initiative in pursuing one suspicious man.​Since August 2011, Zimmerman called in to a non-emergency police line seven times, according to documents released by the Sanford Police Department. Of those calls, five were made to report a “suspicious person.” In the audio released by Seminole County Sheriff’s Department, he describes the suspicious characters as black or African-American, though never mentioning race until after asked to describe the characters.  Five of  calls all began similarly, with Zimmerman saying that he was calling as a result of past break-ins or robberies.​Zimmerman appears to be quite business-like in the calls, offering detailed descriptions of what he was seeing in a matter-of-fact manner. On one call he relates details of kids playing in the street, darting by passing cars.​​In another call he described two “suspicious” men that he said were loitering, adding that he had “never seen them before.” Another described a black male wearing a black leather jacket and hat with ear flaps. Zimmerman said that he had seen the man picking up trash and “didn’t know what his deal was.” In this call, Zimmerman adds that, “I don’t want to approach him personally.”​


http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/headlines/2012/04/trayvon-martin-shooter-zimmermans-911-audio-tapes/

Also, in regards to this nonsense about who yelled "Help!" during the scuffle, did anyone see where the lead detective told the local newspaper that Trayvon's father said that the voice was not his son's? And when the case went national the father retracted the statement. Nice..


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 6, 2012)

Zimmerman defense fund.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...raise-funds-for-george-zimmerman-defense?lite


----------



## Brill (Apr 6, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> Zimmerman defense fund.
> 
> http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...raise-funds-for-george-zimmerman-defense?lite


 
What kind of job do you have where you can surf the web at 1515 EST?..and are they hiring???


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 6, 2012)

lol

I can multitask ;)  I'm in school, and I'm going back and forth between researching for my papers online and writing them, whenever I find something interesting I drop in here and post up.


----------



## x SF med (Apr 6, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> lol
> 
> I can multitask ;) I'm in school, and I'm going back and forth between researching for my papers online and writing them, whenever I find something interesting I drop in here and post up.


 
Here is a recent photo of mara multitasking:


----------



## Centermass (Apr 7, 2012)

I have purposely stayed out of this thread until now. I hope there are those who may learn a lesson from rushing to judgement, mob rule, lynch mobs, agendas, pre-conceived notions, the notion of "Presumed innocent until proven guilty" etc etc and finally, how certain outlets (All of them) can spin things without knowing all the facts, which results in the viewership-readership-followship what have you, including several here, stirred into a frenzy.

Things are not always exactly what they may seem at first, face value, intial reports and so on. I hope anyone reading this keeps it in mind should they be innocent and one day charged with a crime they did not commit.

The Duke lacrosse incident was named as an example already. I figured I'd point out that this isn't the first time someone who went to Harvard (Now our CINC) lost all recollection of what was taught.

Remember this? Henry Gates and Sergeant Crowley. Lots of similarities between this incident and the current one in discussion.

There were basically 4 things wrong here.

Henry Louis Gates. Should have said "Thank you for checking on the welfare of my home, I appreciate what you guys do....instead of taking the Cynthia Mckinney high road attitude of "Do you have any idea who I am???"

Our President. Jumped to conclusions before having all the facts. After being asked about Gates' arrest that Wednesday night and began his response by saying Gates was a friend and he didn't have all the facts. Should have stopped right then and there.

The Governor: Didn't know all the facts involved, but he too, doesn't stop there and goes on record as stating "every black mans worst nightmare" Saying he was “Very aware I was not there,” Patrick called the incident “troubling and upsetting,” and said it called for an examination of the country’s racial climate. This before knowing all the facts. Notice any similarities yet?

The Mayor: Didn't even acknowledge in her first statement on the 21st of July that she was also not aware of all the facts involved, but goes on to state: "I am very pleased that the charges of disorderly conduct levied against Harvard University Professor Henry Louis Gates Jr. have been dropped. The City of Cambridge, the Cambridge Police Department, and Professor Gates have released a joint statement that acknowledges “….the incident of July 16, 2009 was regrettable and unfortunate.” "As the parties involved have placed this matter behind them, it seems appropriate for our community to do the same."

Then there was this rhetoric from the mayor after the above (who has already thrown her own police department and the officer involved under the bus) on the 23rd of July: "Mayor E. Denise Simmons told NewsCenter 5's Todd Kazakiewich that she wants to sit down with Gates and the arresting officer, Sgt. James Crowley, to talk about the Harvard scholar's arrest at his Cambridge home last week." "Do you feel that the police department acted stupidly?" Kazakiewich said. "As I continue to have conversations and figure out what happened, I'll be able to make a determination about what happened," Simmons said.


Which is what she should have stated to begin with if she is expected to lead without prejudice to all of her community. The very same applies to the president and the governor as well. Or should anyway, but obviously, it doesn't. Same applies here with this case.

What do all of these parties and their statements have in common? The very double standard when it comes to justice for all most of them have preached for years. The very ones that have allowed EACH OF THEM to reach the pinnacles of success they now enjoy in public office.

-Do not be in a hurry to rush to judgement.

-Remain unbiased in your decsion making

-Let's get all the facts together and examine them before making a decision.

And yet, because this officer was white, who was handling a call for service by concerned neighbors who called 911, thinking his house (Gates) was being broken into and through the course of his investigation, arrested a man, who was acting disorderly, who was warned REPEATEDLY, just happened to be black and happened to be a very prominent person, he was automatically guilty of racism, racial profiling, etc etc. and was not let off the hook because of his unrecognized celebrity status and immunity qualifications of being above the law because of such.

The officer in question got screwed by the DA when the charge was dropped. He does more than enough in his incident report to clearly articulate the totality of the circumstances involved. The very fact that this DA played favorites by quickly sweeping it away has made gates feeling all the more invincible and above the law. He should have sued the shit out of the town council, settles and takes millions from their budget. Spineless idiots. And by doing so, it gave more ammo to the dozens of ambulance chasers beating down the door and chomping at the bit to represent gates.

The most absurd thing to come out of all this was gates, wanting to use this incident as a teaching tool as to what was wrong "WITH EVERYONE ELSE BUT HIMSELF" Obviously, being on the rolls at Harvard does not equate with your basic load of common sense or possession of intelligence for that matter.

I hope no one ever has to endure what this man, along with Sergeant Crowley, the lacrosse players at Duke had to contend with, nor anyone else in this country, regardless of background, color, creed, choice of weaponry or hardware, nor what you drink, wear or think. 

My .02 and change FWIW.

 YMMV.


----------



## AWP (Apr 9, 2012)

A co-worker has Fox on in the background. The male anchor speaking about the case called it the "Trayvon Martin murder...err, I mispoke. Sorry" before continuing his report.

Sheesh.


----------



## Brill (Apr 9, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> A co-worker has Fox on in the background. The male anchor speaking about the case called it the "Trayvon Martin murder...err, I mispoke. Sorry" before continuing his report.
> 
> Sheesh.


 
Was he or was he not killed against his will?  Er go, murder.


----------



## AWP (Apr 9, 2012)

lindy said:


> Was he or was he not killed against his will? Er go, murder.


 
No, not murder. The court decides if it was murder...hence my post.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder


----------



## policemedic (Apr 9, 2012)

lindy said:


> Was he or was he not killed against his will? Er go, murder.


 
Homicide.  Not all killing is murder.


----------



## Brill (Apr 9, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> No, not murder. The court decides if it was murder...hence my post.
> 
> http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/murder


 
Damn it FF, the COURT, with a preacher from Baltimore presiding, did say it was murder!
http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-martin-death-used-boost-voter-registration-church-details

Another ref to the murder.
http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-martin-redacted-police-report-reveals-new-information-details

Self defense by shooting victim in the back of the head?
http://thewesternexperience.com/2012/03/27/was-trayvon-martin-shot-in-the-back-of-head/

Are you saying that over 209,ooo people are wrong?
http://www.facebook.com/pages/Justice-For-Trayvon-Martin/278155035593734

Congressman declared it too.
http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/03/2729373/trayvons-death-was-murder-congresswoman.html

What's going to happen if Zimmerman is found not quilty?


----------



## pardus (Apr 9, 2012)

lindy said:


> What's going to happen if Zimmerman is found not quilty?


 
Riots hopefully, then decent citizens can shoot these scum dead in the streets.


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 9, 2012)

lindy said:


> Damn it FF, the COURT, with a preacher from Baltimore presiding, did say it was murder!
> http://globalgrind.com/news/trayvon-martin-death-used-boost-voter-registration-church-details


The only court or law that matters is the one in Florida.



> Self defense by shooting victim in the back of the head?
> http://thewesternexperience.com/2012/03/27/was-trayvon-martin-shot-in-the-back-of-head/


This was another media sensationalist fabrication.... Detroit Free Press



> _From the Detroit Free Press:_
> *Statement:* Trayvon was shot in the back of the head.
> *Fact: *The Rev. Jesse Jackson got that wrong at a rally in Eatonville, Fla., on March 25. The autopsy shows that the teen was shot once in the chest at close range.


 


> Are you saying that over 209,ooo people are wrong?
> http://www.facebook.com/pages/Justice-For-Trayvon-Martin/278155035593734


People are stupid as a mob. That is just a very large and ignorant mob.



> Congressman declared it too.
> http://www.miamiherald.com/2012/04/03/2729373/trayvons-death-was-murder-congresswoman.html


See previous quote.



> What's going to happen if Zimmerman is found not quilty?


IF he is found not guilty then that is for him to decide. There will be outrage, name calling, conspiracy theories, the works.....


----------



## AWP (Apr 9, 2012)

lindy said:


> What's going to happen if Zimmerman is found not quilty?


 
Using my extensive knowledge of of post-Colonial American history, I found this reference from a now defunct band of troubadours concerning a similar incident:


> First spot we hit it was my liquor store
> I finally got all the alcohol I can't afford
> With red lights flashin' time to retire
> And then we turned that liquor store into a structure fire
> ...


 
As you can see, the disenfranchised of America will fall upon a predictable path of alcohol and arson. Aditionally, we can glean from these cryptic references that musicians are in fact, criminals. I would therefore expect a run on poorly made and recorded music in the months following a decision.

Cheers!


----------



## TLDR20 (Apr 9, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Using my extensive knowledge of of post-Colonial American history, I found this reference from a now defunct band of troubadours concerning a similar incident:
> 
> 
> As you can see, the disenfranchised of America will fall upon a predictable path of alcohol and arson. Aditionally, we can glean from these cryptic references that musicians are in fact, criminals. I would therefore expect a run on poorly made and recorded music in the months following a decision.
> ...



Hold your tounge! Sublime is a great band.


----------



## 0699 (Apr 9, 2012)

ke4gde said:


> People are stupid as a mob. That is just a very large and ignorant mob.


 
People are stupid in general.  They're just stupider in large groups.


----------



## Brill (Apr 9, 2012)

0699 said:


> People are stupid in general. They're just stupider in large groups.


 
I think you just described my old office!


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 9, 2012)

0699 said:


> People are stupid in general. They're just stupider in large groups.


While mostly true there are a good number that can be smart if not intimidated. lol


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 9, 2012)

cback0220 said:


> Hold your tounge! Sublime is a great band.


Inspired by Nickleback


----------



## AWP (Apr 9, 2012)

cback0220 said:


> Hold your tounge! Sublime is a great band.


 
They're no Nickelback, true...


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 10, 2012)

Interesting..... George Zimmerman's attorneys sever ties This guy is making no sense after they declined a Grand Jury.


> Two lawyers who had been representing George Zimmerman, the neighborhood watch volunteer who shot Trayvon Martin in Sanford, Fla., said Tuesday that their client had cut off contact with them and that they were no longer his legal counsel.
> Attorneys Craig Sonner and Hal Uhrig said in a televised news conference Tuesday afternoon in Florida that Zimmerman was not returning their email or telephone calls. They have not been in contact with him since Sunday night.
> “I’ve lost contact with him at this point,” Sonner said.
> “Whenever we call him, the call goes to voicemail,” Uhrig said.
> ...


----------



## SkrewzLoose (Apr 10, 2012)

Hmm...that kind of erratic behavior doesn't bode well for Mr. Zimmerman unless he has some amazing ace in the hole that no one knows about.


----------



## BFS Cat (Apr 10, 2012)

Lawyers sound unprofessional, just say you are no longer his lawyer don't go into what occured or your opinions.  This gets worse for him every minute.  don't know if he's guilty but he's not acting in his own best interest.  I guess I would suggest  hiring Casey Anthony's lawyer


----------



## Scotth (Apr 10, 2012)

BFS Cat said:


> Lawyers sound unprofessional, just say you are no longer his lawyer don't go into what occured or your opinions.


 
I was thinking the same thing.  Even though I think Zimmerman was wrong in several ways I can't believe what the lawyers said.  Walk away from a client if you need to but you don't talk publicly about it beyond we no longer represent Mr Zimmerman end of story.  They did the guy a disservice today and will only add to the maelstrom swirling around this case..


----------



## AWP (Apr 10, 2012)

Even if Z is guilty as hell, there's no chance of him having a fair trial.

How much longer before this guy offs himself?


----------



## TH15 (Apr 11, 2012)

Well...here we go. Looks like they're going to charge him.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/1...s-at-center-trayvon-martin-shooting-case-say/



> *DEVELOPING:*​​(Newscore)- Florida special prosecutor Angela Corey will announce that she is charging George Zimmerman in the shooting death of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin, The Washington Post reported Wednesday, citing a law enforcement official close to the investigation.​​It is unclear what charges he will face.​
> ​Read more:​​http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/11/attorneys-for-george-zimmerman-whos-at-center-trayvon-martin-shooting-case-say/#ixzz1rl4AeMlu​


I hope this is based on facts, and not the fucking race-mongering bullshit that has ensued over the last month.

Does it usually take this long for a prosecutor to make a decision on charging an individual? Or have they they _really_ had to dig for something here?


----------



## JBS (Apr 11, 2012)

TH15 said:


> Well...here we go. Looks like they're going to charge him.
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/04/1...s-at-center-trayvon-martin-shooting-case-say/
> 
> ...


My predictions: I guarantee you it will continue.

It will be - it will continue to be presented as- about *race.*

In the USA, it will be heavily covered by CNN, MSNBC, NBC and CBS, as well as 100% of "black" media and talk radio, as well as any and every liberal media outlet. Driving today, all I could get to come in clearly was NPR, and they had one outraged speaker after another, talking about how Martin was a victim, and how "based on the facts as we know them now", this conclusion and that conclusion. All of the speech on the issue on NPR was assuming guilt on the part of Zimmerman.

And it will be *exploited* for its ability to polarize and energize minority groups that can be then be expertly harvested by politicians. There is no better way to fire up a base than to get them to whip out their pitchforks over some kind of injustice.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 11, 2012)

1) political pressure from interest groups forces an arrest and trial
2) acquittal due to lack of evidence
3) riots
4) most of America forgets this ever happened, except when it is useful to trot it out either to stoke racial tensions or to go after guns
5) wash, rinse, repeat


----------



## JBS (Apr 11, 2012)

Welp....


Zimmerman in Custody, to be charged w/ 2nd Degree Murder... about to be announced in news conference in 15 minutes (1800 Eastern Standard).

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-201_162-57412535/zimmerman-to-be-charged-in-trayvon-martin-case/


----------



## RackMaster (Apr 11, 2012)

Was reading that just now...  Guilty or not, this is going to be messy.


----------



## Marine0311 (Apr 11, 2012)

Fact and evidence will determine what happened in an otherwise cluste-rfuck of a situation.


----------



## Scotth (Apr 11, 2012)

It is not going to end well regardless of the outcome of the trial.

The upcoming change of venue request is going to be interesting and will probably end up in appeal no matter which way it get's ruled.

I hope they give Zimmerman a reasonable bail considering he probably surrender himself already being in-custody and this is going to be a LONG trial.


----------



## AWP (Apr 11, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> go after guns
> 5) wash, rinse, repeat


 
You should have seen Mayor Bloomberg's press conference. His glee was palpable.


----------



## policemedic (Apr 11, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> You should have seen Mayor Bloomberg's press conference. His glee was palpable.


 
It irritates me that he feels he needs to comment publicly on the matter, that he thinks he has standing, and that he thinks anyone gives a flying fuck what he thinks.


----------



## TH15 (Apr 11, 2012)

I have been writing long-winded posts about Al Sharpton and then deleting them because I think my true feelings about him would get me in trouble. But I will say that I hope there is a special, fiery place in hell for him. Fuck him. Five times. And Jesse Jackson.

The MSM got what they wanted. If Zimmerman wins, they will question our justice system and come up with endless stories about how the judicial system fails blacks. If Zimmerman is convicted, Al Sharpton and company party in the streets  and another racial divide is created like it did when OJ was acquited.


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 11, 2012)

Ok finally a charge to work with.....
Florida Statute 782.04 defines second degree murder as:


> (2) The unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
> (3) When a person is killed in the perpetration of, or in the attempt to perpetrate, any:
> (a) Trafficking offense prohibited by s. 893.135(1),
> (b) Arson,
> ...


The underlined portion is the wording difference between First and Second degree. Maximum penalty for Second degree is Life. Only one life count.
Hmmm I would like to see the evidence on this case. Hopefully it comes to trial soon.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 12, 2012)

Charging him with 2nd Degree murder in order to secure a conviction on manslaughter.


----------



## JBS (Apr 12, 2012)

There's got to be an element of aggravated stalking in order for it to stick, at least so it appears.

What's the definition of "aggravated stalking" in the State of FL?



> *784.048 Stalking; definitions; penalties.*--
> (1) As used in this section, the term:
> (a) "Harass" means to engage in a course of conduct directed at a specific person that causes substantial emotional distress in such person and serves no legitimate purpose.
> (b) "Course of conduct" means a pattern of conduct composed of a series of acts over a period of time, however short, evidencing a continuity of purpose. Constitutionally protected activity is not included within the meaning of "course of conduct." Such constitutionally protected activity includes picketing or other organized protests.
> ...


----------



## Gypsy (Apr 12, 2012)

Scotth said:


> I hope they give Zimmerman a reasonable bail considering he probably surrender himself already being in-custody and this is going to be a LONG trial.


 
I'm not sure he'd be safe if he gets bail...

This whole thing is a freaking zoo and I do not believe Zimmerman will get a fair trial.


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 12, 2012)

JBS said:


> There's got to be an element of aggravated stalking in order for it to stick, at least so it appears.
> 
> What's the definition of "aggravated stalking" in the State of FL?


Can't be stalking. Stalking requires repeated instances. Missing one of the the three criteria for stalking. They still have to prove that he wilfully and maliciously AND repeatedly followed him.


----------



## TH15 (Apr 12, 2012)

ke4gde said:


> Can't be stalking. Stalking requires repeated instances. Missing one of the the three criteria for stalking. They still have to prove that he wilfully and maliciously AND repeatedly followed him.


Hasn't it already been established and verified that Zimmerman stopped following Trayvon?


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 12, 2012)

No separate, repeated, documented instances. As in different timelines. It doesn't apply in this scenario.


----------



## JBS (Apr 12, 2012)

ke4gde said:


> No separate, repeated, documented instances. As in different timelines. It doesn't apply in this scenario.


So it sounds like - as rabidly anti-gun and anti-2nd Amendment as the prosecutor is- she's going to have a very hard time making anything stick, am I right?

For there to be a conviction of 2nd degree murder, it's got to be a check box "a" and at least one item under "b".   Isn't that right?   If you don't have a tick mark next to "a" _and also_ next to at least one item under "b", then that sounds like it's going to end in acquittal.




> {MUST CHECK BOX "A":
> 
> 
> the unlawful killing of a human being, when perpetrated by any act imminently dangerous to another and evincing a depraved mind regardless of human life, although without any premeditated design to effect the death of any particular individual, is murder in the second degree and constitutes a felony of the first degree, punishable by imprisonment for a term of years not exceeding life or as provided in s. 775.082, s. 775.083, or s. 775.084.
> ...


 

We have a check mark under box "A", but it doesn't appear that (from what we know) he was involved in any of the other items under box "B".

Of course, I could just be reading the law- even at the layman level- incorrectly.


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 12, 2012)

JBS said:


> So it sounds like - as rabidly anti-gun and anti-2nd Amendment as the prosecutor is- she's going to have a very hard time making anything stick, am I right?
> 
> For there to be a conviction of 2nd degree murder, it's got to be a check box "a" and at least one item under "b". Isn't that right? If you don't have a tick mark next to "a" _and also_ next to at least one item under "b", then that sounds like it's going to end in acquittal.
> 
> ...


No you are mostly correct in your understanding. You did very well at the laymen level. There is something in B "(o) Murder of another human being" They still will have a difficult time meeting the criteria. Depending on what the evidence is of course.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 12, 2012)

There is no way a 2nd degree murder charge sticks, unless there's a good bit of evidence we don't know, or the jury is biased, or Zimmerman pleads guilty.  I think the charge is for show.  Maybe Zimmerman pleads guilty to a lesser charge or something.


----------



## 0699 (Apr 12, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> There is no way a 2nd degree murder charge sticks, unless there's a good bit of evidence we don't know, or the jury is biased, or Zimmerman pleads guilty. I think the charge is for show. *Maybe Zimmerman pleads guilty to a lesser charge or something*.


 
If he's smart he goes all in.  No pleads, jury trial, everything.  Force the "prosecution" to do their job.


----------



## SkrewzLoose (Apr 12, 2012)

Zimmerman and his lawyer are "planning" on pleading not guilty.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-court-hearing



> Speaking before the hearing, attorney Mark O'Mara said Zimmerman, 28, was planning to plead not guilty.


----------



## Rabid Badger (Apr 12, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Zimmerman and his lawyer are "planning" on pleading not guilty.
> 
> http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2012/apr/12/george-zimmerman-trayvon-martin-court-hearing


I see "The Guardian" is still posting the sweet and innocent pic of TM instead of his most recent gangsta photo:



*Fuck the MSM and their twist on events. Research.*​​*Agree with 0699.*​


----------



## Rabid Badger (Apr 13, 2012)

0699 said:


> If he's smart he goes all in. No pleads, jury trial, everything. Force the "prosecution" to do their job.


 
and "bingo":



> http://news.yahoo.com/zimmerman-makes-court-appearance-fla-shooting-174444011.html
> *Zimmerman makes court appearance in Fla. shooting*
> 
> Zimmerman was charged after a public campaign to make an arrest in the Feb. 26 shooting, which has galvanized the nation for weeks. Some legal experts had expected Zimmerman to face a lesser count of manslaughter and say a prosecutor will face steep hurdles to win a murder conviction.
> ...


----------



## Scotth (Apr 13, 2012)

Just to be fair Martin had some issues in school but Zimmerman was arrested for resisting arrest and obstruction of justice back in 2005.  He was able to plead it down to a misdemeanor and had to go to anger management classes.  Not that either person's prior actions indicate guilt or innocence for this matter.


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 13, 2012)

Scotth said:


> Just to be fair Martin had some issues in school but Zimmerman was *arrested* for resisting arrest and obstruction of justice back in 2005. He was able to plead it down to a misdemeanor and had to go to anger management classes. Not that either person's prior actions indicate guilt or innocence for this matter.


Key word here is arrested. Not convicted. The police only need probable cause to arrest someone but the State needs proof beyond a reasonable doubt. Those are the standards to which everyone is held. In a continuum from 0 - 100 probable cause sits right at 49% IIRC. Might be 50 ( i forget the exact number lol). Regardless being arrested for something is nothing. Ultimately it is the conviction. What's more is his record was expunged and this should have never came out. I believe it was the result of a felony diversion program for people that make mistakes and are not career criminals. I am not defending whatever he did but it is important to understand what happened and how it relates to everything else.

Martin was suspended for possession of paraphernalia I believe. That in it of itself is not a huge deal. The main issue I have with Zimmerman is he though he could handle the situation himself and was heard saying on the tape that they always get away. I have dealt with people like him on more than one occasion and then they get frustrated because they don't comprehend what is going on or how things work they make ridiculous statements amounting to them taking the law into their own hands. I always had to warn them their course of action would usually cause worse problems for them.

It seems to me so far that Zimmerman created his own exigent circumstances that required him to fear for his life. Was he justified in defending himself? Absolutely (at least so far as what info has been published). Did he bite off more than he could chew and take matters into his own hands by not leaving this to professionals? Yeah sounds like it. The big question is will the stand your ground law protect those that create their own life or death scenarios and are forced to react?


----------



## JBS (Apr 13, 2012)

Zimmerman, that hulk of a man, is 5'8", 170lbs.

Reading all these reports, I didn't realize Zimmerman was a little guy.

I listened to some radio talk show hosts on this, saying "Zimmerman was a grown-assed-man," emphasizing this apparent disproportionate size differential between the two men.   They made it sound like some lumberjack beating up a kid at the after-school care center.







http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2012/04/george-z/


----------



## Poccington (Apr 13, 2012)

In what world does a photo of someone wearing a hoodie with their hood up equal a "gangsta photo"?


----------



## JBS (Apr 13, 2012)

Ummm...

The judge presiding over the case was said to be pretty hot, so I did a Google search and found this:





 
I think it's safe to say Sandra Bullock will play the judge when they finally make the film:


----------



## JBS (Apr 13, 2012)

Well, so much for that movie.

Judge recuses herself out of concern for potential conflict of interest:




> A Florida judge on Friday offered to recuse herself from the George Zimmerman case in a surprise hearing because of her husband's ties to a CNN legal analyst and commentator.
> The Orlando Sentinel reports that Judge Jessica Recksiedler disclosed that her husband works for the law firm of Mark NeJame, a prominent Orlando attorney, in the five-minute hearing Friday afternoon. In addition to working for his law firm, NeJame has been sounding off on the Zimmerman case for CNN. It's unclear if either attorney will take Recksiedler up on her offer and ask her to step aside.
> NeJame said on CNN Friday that Recksiedler wants to avoid "the appearance of impropriety" with this disclosure.


----------



## AWP (Apr 13, 2012)

The one bright flame in this story extinguished.


----------



## Chevy (Apr 14, 2012)

Poccington said:


> In what world does a photo of someone wearing a hoodie with their hood up equal a "gangsta photo"?


 

A racist, prejudice, and sterotyped one! Everyone with their bullsh*t propaganda about how free and equal the world is. Racism, discrimination, sterotypes, and being prejudice never went away, it just wore bad camoflague. I honestly hate the race card bullsh*t, but I hate when people are so naive to say racism doesn't exist. My bullshit filter is definitely full!


----------



## JBS (Apr 14, 2012)

The thing is if you grew up in, or around a big city- Atlanta, Baltimore, Miami, LA, or any of a hundred other cities, the fact of the matter is thugs wear hoodies.

You can PM all the hate mail you want:nerd: . If you ignore the fact that in the inner city, and in rap videos, and among wannabe gangsters, the hoody has been worn as the "I'm a badass lil' thug" headgear, then you are ignoring reality. When you want to wear the thug life apparel, people are going to read what you project. Right or wrong, it is a fact. The only place people legitimately wear a hoody is in very cold weather, or at the track meet / wrestling tourney.

If you come into my gas station, and there are 30 people in there, and it is 72 degrees, and you come in at 11:00 at night with your hoodie on, I am the owner, I am going to mentally prepare for the possibility of a gunfight within the next minute or two.

If I am a bank teller, and you come into my bank with a hoody and it is 72 degrees outside, I am going to put my hand on the duress button. Whether you- or I- or anyone else agrees with the evil stereotype of the hoody is irrelevant, and if I am with my girl at the downtown concert at 12:00 midnight, and a group of hoody-wearing young men start to congregate around me, if I do not get the f*** out of dodge, I am a dumbass for not reading the obvious signs; I will deserve what comes after.


Edited for grammar...


----------



## AWP (Apr 14, 2012)

Hoodies are like pants...it is how they are worn.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 14, 2012)

OK folks, don't let this thread go the way of so many other good ones in the past.  If personal attacks are necessary, take it to private message.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 14, 2012)

I deleted a bunch of posts that I felt were either personal attacks or did not contribute to a rational discussion of the topic at hand.  If you have something that is for all of us to read, make an appropriate post.  If you have something for a specific individual, use the private message function.  This is last time I expect to have to give this kind of warning.


----------



## Chevy (Apr 14, 2012)

Okay we can go on and on about hoodies, who was at fault, blah blah blah. The simple fact is neither one of us were there, and GZ is the only one here to tell his side of the story. My original point wasn't aimed toward GZ being racist and killing TM. It was solely meant to point out that racism still exists no matter who you are.


----------



## BFS Cat (Apr 14, 2012)

Whatever the outcome, this is devisive.  I think doing a neighborhood watch patrol with a gun is different than protecting your own home.  Could a 17 year old look threatening, yes.  More so if you are looking for the threat.  Media focuses on pictures of a younger boy which is encouraging the outrage.  They are profiting from this tragedy.   They focus on Zimmerman being white, they have just recently clairfied that he is hispanic.  No surprise they  encourage further racial misunderstanding, it sells papers. 

Today in this heat, I've seen several young boys wearing hoodies. a statement is being made, lines are drawn.    I think whatever the truth is, there will continue to be a rift between black and white, made worse by this.  Racism does exist, I saw it growing up being hispanic.  I lived through it when Robinson wanted to get whitey and killed Erik.  I was also fortunate to grow up in a diverse area and have friends of all nationalities and races.  The benefits of growing up near a big military base.  Racism still exists and perhaps even in the heart of George Zimmerman.   

I know things get very heated around here but you all seem to have respect for each other, you have each other's backs.   I enjoy reading the different perspectives.  The nation will get through this, maybe we'll learn something.  Hopefully truth and justice will be served and you can all get back to your unreasonable hatred of Nickleback.


----------



## parallel (Apr 14, 2012)

Poccington said:


> In what world does a photo of someone wearing a hoodie with their hood up equal a "gangsta photo"?





Chevy said:


> A racist, prejudice, and sterotyped one! Everyone with their bullsh*t propaganda about how free and equal the world is. Racism, discrimination, sterotypes, and being prejudice never went away, it just wore bad camoflague. I honestly hate the race card bullsh*t, but I hate when people are so naive to say racism doesn't exist. My bullshit filter is definitely full!


Since when is gang affiliation restricted to any particular race?


----------



## Chevy (Apr 14, 2012)

parallel said:


> Since when is gang affiliation restricted to any particular race?


 

I never restricted gang affiliation to any race.


----------



## parallel (Apr 14, 2012)

Hmmm... double post somehow.


----------



## parallel (Apr 14, 2012)

Chevy said:


> I never restricted gang affiliation to any race.


So... you used the word Racist for what reason exactly?


----------



## Rabid Badger (Apr 15, 2012)

@Pocc: I can see how you would connect the photo I posted and the statement I posted to every gangsta wearing a hoodie, or those wearing hoodies being gangstas. That was not my intent.

My problem lies with the MSM. Simply put, TM was NOT the 11 year old innocent boy 9 out of 10 media outlets are subscribing to. He was 6'2", 17, and 170lbs, so why not put up pics of TM present day? There are plenty of available photos, check his Myspace and his tweets...Drug deals being discussed and gang signs practiced......totally different picture of a young TM gangsta wannabe can be found all over the place.

To buy into the innocent 11yr old boy pictures is simply naive at a profound level. (not saying you have Pocc)

I participate in my Neighborhood Watch, and, I'll admit, hoodies up at this time of year gain my attention. Does this mean one of the walking teens in my neighborhood is a gangsta? Hell no, but along with JBS, my spidey senses have me checking to make sure the magazine is well seated.

2c


----------



## JBS (Apr 20, 2012)

Photo of Zimmerman's bloody lacerated head emerges:


----------



## CDG (Apr 20, 2012)

How did a smiling 12 year old kid manage to do that?





 Oh wait.....


----------



## JBS (Apr 20, 2012)

It's amazing they set his bond at $150K, despite the fact that Zimmerman has posed no flight risk, initiated contact with the prosecutor, and on top of that has photographic evidence that Martin bashed his head up against the sidewalk.

I would say that bashing of the skull against the pavement or the curb is prima facie evidence (?) of a threat of death or serious bodily harm.


----------



## Scotth (Apr 20, 2012)

Well considering the prosecution wanted no bail or $1 million, a $150k bail is probably about as good a deal as he could get.  The judge making that big of a departure from the prosecutions request is an acknowledgement that the judge doesn't consider him a serious flight threat.  His family will have to come up with $25k in cash but it will hopefully be doable.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 20, 2012)

Hoodie's, I have a few. Almost all are Army, deployment or shooting match related. I don’t associate a hoodie with gangbanger, but I would be posturing if someone with a hoodie on in 70+% weather was walking around my house, or into a store, etc.

A licensed CCW holder having a handgun on him/her while acting as a Neighborhood Watch is an if'y area. In the state of Texas it could be considered a violation of the state "private security board" rules/regs and laws. I am not up to speed on FL, but it would really be up to how they legally define a Neighborhood Watchmen and an Armed Security Guard.

The self-defense aspect could hold weight, if the defense can prove that GZ was in fact reasonable for fearing for his life, however, his following of TM will add confusion to the jury. I would expect that the Murder 2 charge will be acquitted and that he will face later charges regarding small violations and receive some sort of probation, or time served.  This will be an effort for the state and county to avoid follow on civil suit from GZ. However, if I were him I would file suit on the media for character and reputation slander, as well as the state attorney’s office for false charges and imprisonment. Needless to say, this is the next big national trial and will once again ruin another person’s life for your viewing pleasure.

As for the up-in-arms people over race and or all the other groups of dumbasses that want to make something from nothing. I think every last one of you cock suckers will burn in hell, and only hope that one day it will be legal to purge all of you from the planet.


----------



## Rapid (Apr 20, 2012)

I love how, when no one knows what really happened, the media goes into scare tactics mode. They tried to convince everyone that Zimmerman took advantage of a law to commit murder because YEEE-HAW. For me, there's no question as to why they operate like this. Just ask yourself what is better frontpage material: _"Guy killed guy in supposed self-defense; authorities still investigating"_ or _"White man abuses a loophole in the law to murder black man and get away with it; observers claim Lincoln's statue shed a single tear"._


----------



## Poccington (Apr 22, 2012)

RB said:


> @Pocc: I can see how you would connect the photo I posted and the statement I posted to every gangsta wearing a hoodie, or those wearing hoodies being gangstas. That was not my intent.
> 
> My problem lies with the MSM. Simply put, TM was NOT the 11 year old innocent boy 9 out of 10 media outlets are subscribing to. He was 6'2", 17, and 170lbs, so why not put up pics of TM present day? There are plenty of available photos, check his Myspace and his tweets...Drug deals being discussed and gang signs practiced......totally different picture of a young TM gangsta wannabe can be found all over the place.
> 
> ...


 
Completely agree with what you're saying bro.

This whole court case is gonna be an absolute fucking disaster. Too much has been said in the media, alot of it pure speulation or misinformation, that Zimmerman needs a whole lot of luck to get any kind of fair trial. IMO.


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 22, 2012)

Watched the hearing.
Prosecutor is a jackass who will alienate the jury.
Defense will attempt to put as many Hispanics/ old white people on the jury as possible.  Prosecution team will try to stack the jury with blacks.
My wife says the $150K bail was a major win for the defense, and agrees the Judge didn't seem happy with the Prosecutor's tactics.
The Judge's instructions to the Jury will determine the outcome.  Given the choice, the Jury may convict of manslaughter; all or nothing will see an acquittal of the 2nd Degree Murder charge.
It's an election year, FL AG needs to show the Black Community she cares.  Hoefully the White/Hispanic Communities notice and shit-can the AG's ass.


----------



## Brill (Apr 22, 2012)

Interesting idea in Annapolis, MD.

*Woodside Gardens residents challenge security methods*
*April 13 incident caused tensions between tenants and guards to escalate*

By ELISHA SAUERS, Staff Writer
Published 04/22/12

In most Annapolis neighborhoods,* seeing men walking the streets in bulletproof vests, armed with guns and carrying pepper spray*, would come as a shock.
Residents of Woodside Gardens, *a low-income private apartment complex* south of Forest Drive, might see that any day of the week.
Tenants say that over the past month their *landlord has ramped up the use of a private security company that they describe as using paramilitary tactics to deter trespassers, loiterers and drug dealers.*

http://www.hometownannapolis.com/ne...ens-residents-challenge-security-methods.html


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 22, 2012)

> Hoodie's, I have a few. Almost all are Army, deployment or shooting match related. I don’t associate a hoodie with gangbanger...


 
I don't either, but it seems to be part of the uniform of choice for the gangbangers around here.  All of this was in today's newspaper:

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2012/04/22/news/doc4f945ad1cea03212910091.txt
The suspect is described as about 5’11” and thin. He wore a burgundy hooded sweatshirt 

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2012/04/22/blotter/doc4f9459c548674341498271.txt
Spears made the leap, leaving part of his hooded sweatshirt on the spikes, police said.  Spears ran past four little girls playing in the yard, as Conceicao grabbed for what remained of his sweatshirt. Spears pulled out a handgun and threw it. The gun landed just feet away from the children and Spears was tackled, police said. The gun, a .22 caliber semi-automatic, was loaded

http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2012/04/22/blotter/doc4f945295a39cf668524823.txt?viewmode=default
The gunman is believed to be in his teens, about 6 feet tall, stocky and was wearing a black face mask, a black baggy hooded sweatshirt and black sweat pants.


----------



## DasBoot (Apr 22, 2012)

Has anyone else heard the moving and eloquent tribute the rapper Plies has written for the deceased? 




I'm pretty neutral on this, but how much money do you think this dude gave to the family for legal fees and what not? I'm going with zero. What an ass.


----------



## alibi (Apr 23, 2012)

CDG said:


> How did a smiling 12 year old kid manage to do that?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I've seen this photo in a few posts throughout this thread, and I think it should be known that it's fake.

http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/martin.asp


----------



## Rabid Badger (Apr 23, 2012)

alibi said:


> I've seen this photo in a few posts throughout this thread, and I think it should be known that it's fake.
> 
> http://www.snopes.com/photos/politics/martin.asp


 
Fixed, just for Snopes:


----------



## DasBoot (Apr 23, 2012)

I don't get the whole "I was suspended from high school" part. That doesn't define who you are or make you much different than a lot of high school kids. When I was in HS, kids got suspended for being tardy to class 5 times in a semester- not really an indicator of being a psychotic, violent thug. I keep hearing how bringing up Zimmerman's criminal record is wrong and shouldn't play a role in this issue (which I agree with, considering the circumstances) but why the double standard with Martin and his behavior? I feel like there backlash to this whole story is starting to become as outlandish as the initial reaction to the shooting.


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 23, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> I don't either, but it seems to be part of the uniform of choice for the gangbangers around here. All of this was in today's newspaper:
> 
> http://www.nhregister.com/articles/2012/04/22/news/doc4f945ad1cea03212910091.txt
> The suspect is described as about 5’11” and thin. He wore a burgundy hooded sweatshirt
> ...


This. The majority of suspect descriptions I took for reports included some kind of hooded sweatshirt (ie color, style, material, team logo ect...) The variations can sometimes (read sometimes) identify a gang or subset of a gang.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 23, 2012)

Yep. And it's not restricted to one race or ethnicity, either.


----------



## AWP (Apr 23, 2012)

ke4gde said:


> This. The majority of suspect descriptions I took for reports included some kind of hooded sweatshirt (ie color, style, material, team logo ect...) The variations can sometimes (read sometimes) identify a gang or subset of a gang.


 
When you come over in a few weeks can we wear hoodies on a beer run?


----------



## 0699 (Apr 23, 2012)

Hell, I'm wearing a hoodie right now...


----------



## SpitfireV (Apr 23, 2012)

I got suspended from school for a day. Karate kicked a teacher's son in the ribs. He charged me after I pulled the fingers.

And I'm not totally a waste of oxygen in today's society.


----------



## RackMaster (Apr 23, 2012)

SpitfireV said:


> I got suspended from school for a day. Karate kicked a teacher's son in the ribs. He charged me after I pulled the fingers.
> 
> *And I'm not totally a waste of oxygen in today's society*.


 
;)  That's what you say.


----------



## SpitfireV (Apr 23, 2012)

RackMaster said:


> ;) That's what you say.


 
I did say totally, not to imply I'm not wasting some


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 23, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> When you come over in a few weeks can we wear hoodies on a beer run?


Only if you promise to buy a 40 and a bag of skittles.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Apr 24, 2012)

I got suspended for.... Beating the crap out of 2 people on the last day in 5th grade, couple other things...


----------



## TLDR20 (Apr 24, 2012)

I think one of the problems with this is that  ZIMMERMAN SHOT AN UNARMED MAN !!! How is this at all justified? I don't care if he was wearing bloods colors, and uelling Fuck the police! Wearing a hoodie doesn't make you a criminal. Walking through a neighborhood or getting suspended from school doesn't make you a thug. Shit even flipping off a camera doesn't mean anything, there are pics of me doing the same thing I am sure. If I was Mr. Zimmerman I would be very nervous, seeing as I got my ass beat by a 17 year old and resorted to shooting an unarmed man. 

That is my piece on this subject.


----------



## TH15 (Apr 24, 2012)

cback0220 said:


> I think one of the problems with this is that ZIMMERMAN SHOT AN UNARMED MAN !!! How is this at all justified? I don't care if he was wearing bloods colors, and uelling Fuck the police! Wearing a hoodie doesn't make you a criminal. Walking through a neighborhood or getting suspended from school doesn't make you a thug. Shit even flipping off a camera doesn't mean anything, there are pics of me doing the same thing I am sure. If I was Mr. Zimmerman I would be very nervous, *seeing as I got my ass beat by a 17 year old* and resorted to shooting an unarmed man.
> 
> That is my piece on this subject.


The size difference in this equation cannot be ignored IMO. Martin was 6 foot 2 and Zimmerman is listed at 5 feet and 9 inches here:
http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/new...in-shooting-death-initial-police-reports.html

Also, if the theory of Zimmerman being sucker punched is true, it would explain why he got his ass beat as well.


----------



## TLDR20 (Apr 24, 2012)

TH15 said:


> The size difference in this equation cannot be ignored IMO. Martin was 6 foot 2 and Zimmerman is listed at 5 feet and 9 inches here:
> http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/new...in-shooting-death-initial-police-reports.html
> 
> Also, if the theory of Zimmerman being sucker punched is true, it would explain why he got his ass beat as well.




So he still shot a tall unarmed man..? And sucker punched or not there was no need for ANYONE to die.


----------



## reed11b (Apr 24, 2012)

cback0220 said:


> So he still shot a tall unarmed man..? And sucker punched or not there was no need for ANYONE to die.


 Soooo, an unarmed man has never beaten anyone to death? Interesting.
Reed


----------



## Scotth (Apr 24, 2012)

TH15 said:


> The size difference in this equation cannot be ignored IMO. Martin was 6 foot 2 and Zimmerman is listed at 5 feet and 9 inches here:
> http://blogs.chicagotribune.com/new...in-shooting-death-initial-police-reports.html


 
Size is more than just inches.  The link you gave list Martin as 6'0" 160 pounds and Zimmerman as 5'9" but no weight is list.  160 pounds at 6 foot suggests to me the kid was probably still growing into his body.  There is also a mature body versus immature body advantage.  In the end both people had potential advantages and disadvantages in any confrontation.


----------



## Etype (Apr 24, 2012)

cback0220 said:


> I think one of the problems with this is that ZIMMERMAN SHOT AN UNARMED MAN !!! How is this at all justified?


I would shoot an unarmed man, too, if he attacked me. Given the choice, at this point in my life the only type of fight I'm going to engage is a gunfight- that's just the way it is, fights are for kids.  That's one reason why you don't mess with people- you don't know who has a gun and who doesn't. On top of that, you just shouldn't mess with anybody.



DasBoot said:


> I don't get the whole "I was suspended from high school" part. That doesn't define who you are or make you much different than a lot of high school kids. When I was in HS, kids got suspended for being tardy to class 5 times in a semester- not really an indicator of being a psychotic, violent thug.


I think Hannity originally reported something about drug possession being the reason for his suspension. There hasn't been much more talk about it, so he may have been wrong or it may just have been forgotten about.


----------



## Scotth (Apr 24, 2012)

In the end the case will be decided on whether self defense/stand your ground argument still apply considering the events leading up the the actual gun shot.  If the case is only about the seconds leading up to the shooting Zimmerman wins and if the case becomes about the actions leading up to the shooting Zimmerman loses.  Really it will only take one sympathetic juror to stop Zimmerman from being convicted of anything and that what he is betting on.


----------



## JBS (Apr 24, 2012)

Its not about height or weight or even the sucker puch, IMO. It's about Zimmerman getting his head bashed against the cement curb repeatedly.

A .45 to the face is appropriate if you have been surprised by an attacker and with your last bit of disoriented consciousness decide you'd like to be there for your kids' next birthday.  If you know you are about to go to sleep and may get kicked and stomped to death, then hell f*** yes you better pull your piece and fight for survival.


----------



## pardus (Apr 24, 2012)

cback0220 said:


> So he still shot a tall unarmed man..? And sucker punched or not there was no need for ANYONE to die.


 
Serious question. If you, your wife, parents, anyone was armed and they were attacked by someone that they were unable to either physically defend against or escape from, what would you advocate?

I was taught that if you have a firearm and you loose a fight, that firearm gets used against you...


----------



## JBS (Apr 24, 2012)

I honestly didn't even think of retention. Great point.


----------



## policemedic (Apr 24, 2012)

cback0220 said:


> I think one of the problems with this is that ZIMMERMAN SHOT AN UNARMED MAN !!! How is this at all justified? I don't care if he was wearing bloods colors, and uelling Fuck the police! Wearing a hoodie doesn't make you a criminal. Walking through a neighborhood or getting suspended from school doesn't make you a thug. Shit even flipping off a camera doesn't mean anything, there are pics of me doing the same thing I am sure. If I was Mr. Zimmerman I would be very nervous, seeing as I got my ass beat by a 17 year old and resorted to shooting an unarmed man.
> 
> That is my piece on this subject.


 
It's not necessarily illegal to shoot an unarmed man, to shoot someone in the back, or to shoot someone who is on the ground.  It's all about context, and there are many factors to consider.  

Many people are capable of killing with their bare hands (including most, if not all, of us here).

Without commenting on any other aspect of the case, I'll say this.  If things ever went so badly for me that I ended up on my back in the street with someone banging my head against the road, I'm going to shoot them.  I'm well aware of what can happen to me in that situation-serious bodily injury or death is certainly possible.  And that's the bar.  



Scotth said:


> In the end the case will be decided on whether self defense/stand your ground argument still apply considering the events leading up the the actual gun shot. If the case is only about the seconds leading up to the shooting Zimmerman wins and if the case becomes about the actions leading up to the shooting Zimmerman loses. Really it will only take one sympathetic juror to stop Zimmerman from being convicted of anything and that what he is betting on.


 
You're right.  The facts leading up to Martin approaching Zimmerman are either going to be red herrings or damning depending on the skill levels of the attorneys.  If the defense is successful on keeping the emphasis on the fight itself, and the facts are as we know them, then Zimmerman is on solid ground.  Of course, with juries solid legal ground doesn't always matter. 

The stand your ground law argument is also a red herring.  It's generally true that where 'stand your ground' laws don't exist, you are only required to retreat if it is possible and safe for you to do so.  If you simply can't, or if retreating would expose you to the same or higher danger, then you aren't required to do so.  Stand your ground laws presuppose a choice. If Zimmerman wasn't physically able to retreat, or couldn't have done so safely, then he didn't have a choice and stand your ground is moot.  The laws governing self-defense generally require that reasonable force be used, and that deadly force only be used when in fear of serious bodily injury or death.  Whether that fear and the use of deadly force was reasonable is a matter for the jury to decide.

No matter what, I don't want to be Zimmerman.


----------



## pardus (Apr 24, 2012)

JBS said:


> I honestly didn't even think of retention. Great point.


 

Learnt that in South Africa. There the criminals will target you to get your firearm.


----------



## Rabid Badger (Apr 24, 2012)

policemedic said:


> The stand your ground law argument is also a red herring. It's generally true that where 'stand your ground' laws don't exist, you are only required to retreat if it is possible and safe for you to do so. If you simply can't, or if retreating would expose you to the same or higher danger, then you aren't required to do so. Stand your ground laws presuppose a choice. If Zimmerman wasn't physically able to retreat, or couldn't have done so safely, then he didn't have a choice and stand your ground is moot. The laws governing self-defense generally require that reasonable force be used, and that deadly force only be used when in fear of *serious bodily injury* or death. Whether that fear and the use of deadly force was reasonable is a matter for the jury to decide.
> 
> No matter what, I don't want to be Zimmerman.


 
Agree with the entire post. Best one I've read on this thread. If and/or when a POLICEMAN is under attack and fears for his life, he will use deadly force IN FEAR FOR HIS LIFE. What a lot of folks do not understand is that you operate every single day under the same pretext as the LEA's, in *ALMOST* every state of the union!

The highlighted red is also a red herring.

If/when you fall under the same or nearly the same criteria as Zimmerman, *DO NOT FOR ANY REASON* state that "_I thought ~the perpetrator~ was going to do *"serious bodily injury"* to my person"._ _"I want to talk to my lawyer now"_ should be the ONLY words that utter from your mouth.

If, and when, pressed by the LEO's on-site, and you will be pressured to say something, the next thing you say, and biting your tongue while saying it, is _*"I WAS IN FEAR FOR MY LIFE"*_........then make the call to your lawyer and STFU.

IANAL, but enough info is out there for those 2A / RTKBA believers.





​IMHO, Zimmerman had the right to defend himself. The Florida court will decide. "Stand Your Ground" in Florida will be debated for a very long time.​


----------



## 0699 (Apr 24, 2012)

cback0220 said:


> I think one of the problems with this is that *ZIMMERMAN SHOT AN UNARMED MAN* !!! How is this at all justified? I don't care if he was wearing bloods colors, and uelling Fuck the police! Wearing a hoodie doesn't make you a criminal. Walking through a neighborhood or getting suspended from school doesn't make you a thug. Shit even flipping off a camera doesn't mean anything, there are pics of me doing the same thing I am sure. If I was Mr. Zimmerman I would be very nervous, seeing as I got my ass beat by a 17 year old and resorted to shooting an unarmed man.
> 
> That is my piece on this subject.


 
Lots of deaths caused by unarmed men. * If I am in fear of my life*, you could have a pencil and I would still shoot someone dead.



SpitfireV said:


> I got suspended from school for a day. Karate kicked a teacher's son in the ribs. He charged me after I pulled the fingers.
> 
> And I'm not totally a waste of oxygen in today's society.


 
I got suspended from school so many times I don't even remember the number.



policemedic said:


> *It's not necessarily illegal to shoot an unarmed man, to shoot someone in the back, or to shoot someone who is on the ground*.


----------



## TLDR20 (Apr 24, 2012)

Ok I may have set myself up for these comments, let me start over, he shot an unarmed man who he had been following, after a confrontation with the man who He had been following, after the altercation occurred.  This was wrong, but not because of race, or gun laws, or legit like that, but because some guy thought he was big because he had a gun. I think he should get punished for it. Seriously.


----------



## TLDR20 (Apr 24, 2012)

To a certain point, I agree with what has been said here. If I am minding my own business and someone goes out of their way to cause me or my family harm, I will prolly shoot you. However if I go out looking for a fight/trouble and it finds me I think I would throw fists before bullets.


----------



## AWP (Apr 24, 2012)

There's a whole ton of fail in this case. Z may have placed himself in a bad position but he wasn't doing anything illegal. If Martin went after him and an altercation ensued, now both parties are at fault IMO. Once it escalates beyond words, if Z thought his life was in danger then he was within his right to use deadly force. A chain of events and no one broke the chain and now someone is dead.

I don't think the State can prove 2nd Degree murder and I honestly don't think they can make manslaughter stick unless the jury is a bag of shit like Casey Anthony's jury.

I'll bet FL's Stand Your Ground law is modified before this is over with to include something about pursuit, i.e. putting yourself in a bad situation like Z did.

It doesn't matter his this case ends, we're all going to lose something as a result.


----------



## parallel (Apr 24, 2012)

cback0220 said:


> Ok I may have set myself up for these comments, let me start over, he shot an unarmed man who he had been following, after a confrontation with the man who He had been following, after the altercation occurred. This was wrong, but not because of race, or gun laws, or legit like that, but because some guy thought he was big because he had a gun. I think he should get punished for it. Seriously.


So... do you have some sort of inside scoop on the facts or are you simply parroting the conjecture that has been masquerading as news and combining it with a dose of your own version of the facts?


----------



## TLDR20 (Apr 24, 2012)

How else can you explain such a fucking stupid incident to have ever happened. I think this whole case is  absurd. People are so quick to polarize what, in this case, shouldn't be..


----------



## parallel (Apr 25, 2012)

> People are so quick to polarize what, in this case, shouldn't be..


Which is exactly what you've done by forming such a strong opinion without waiting for the facts.


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 25, 2012)

cback0220 said:


> Ok I may have set myself up for these comments, let me start over, he shot an unarmed man who he had been following, after a confrontation with the man who He had been following, after the altercation occurred. This was wrong, but not because of race, or gun laws, or legit like that, but because some guy thought he was big because he had a gun. I think he should get punished for it. Seriously.


Thanks for the clarification. policemedic summed it up best. I can't describe it better

I agree with the underlined part being a strong possibility. This is what will test the new law. As I have said before he created his own life or death circumstance that required him to use deadly force. There are more than a few cowboys out there that think they can do things there own way and get justice or want to be a cop so bad they try to act like one. If that was the case in this instance then yes he should be punished for it IF it can be legally justified. Changing any laws at this point is ridiculous because the case will be judged by the laws in place at the time.

The problem with the stand your ground law is that it (like many laws) have unintended side effects. I will paint a true picture. The area I used to work in had a good old fashion gangland drive by shooting between two rival gangs. Gang A was upset about an earlier incident and decided to get revenge on gang B. Gang A decided to get revenge and do a drive by when they found members from B. Now in the process of this drive by a 15 year old member (verified as a hardcore member) of A was in the car and ate some lead from B who returned fire with AK47s. Keep in mind that at the time B was in a public place and had a legal right to be there and their guns were in their car. The members from B were all charged with murder. One (from B) took a plea deal before trial and two others (also from B) had sharp attorneys that invoked "Stand Your Ground". The judge sided with the attorney and the two smart ones had their murder charges dropped. Did I like it? Absolutely not. Though I can't ignore the fact that the guys from B were not doing anything illegal and had a right to be where they were.

Both sides are dirt bags. Given. Even the 15 year old. When he was wheeled into the ER for emergency surgery a small caliber handgun fell out of his waist band. He was up to no good and paid for it. He was well known by law enforcement and the school system for criminal activity. The laws are in place to protect everyone. Good and bad. It's not always ideal but it is the best set in place at humanity's level of evolution. This incident is a mess and I am sure there were screw ups all around. Overall it's going to be a nightmare to sort it out.


----------



## policemedic (Apr 25, 2012)

For comparison purposes, here's the PA stand your ground/castle doctrine statute.  The most relevant portions are in red and bolded.  There is also another statute that provides civil immunity for using force under this law.

As RB quite correctly stated above, the PA law that governs police use of force is not substantially different in the core principles from this one.  It just specifically addresses the issue of using force in an arrest or to prevent escape, suicide, etc.

18 Pa.C.S.A. § 505
*(a) Use of force justifiable for protection of the person.--*The use of force upon or toward another person is justifiable when the actor believes that such force is immediately necessary for the purpose of protecting himself against the use of unlawful force by such other person on the present occasion.

*(b) Limitations on justifying necessity for use of force.*--

(1) The use of force is not justifiable under this section:

(i) to resist an arrest which the actor knows is being made by a peace officer, although the arrest is unlawful; or

(ii) to resist force used by the occupier or possessor of property or by another person on his behalf, where the actor knows that the person using the force is doing so under a claim of right to protect the property, except that this limitation shall not apply if:

(A) the actor is a public officer acting in the performance of his duties or a person lawfully assisting him therein or a person making or assisting in a lawful arrest;

(B) the actor has been unlawfully dispossessed of the property and is making a reentry or recaption justified by section 507 of this title (relating to use of force for the protection of property); or

(C) the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death or serious bodily injury.

(2) The use of deadly force is not justifiable under this section unless the actor believes that such force is necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat; nor is it justifiable if:

(i) the actor, with the intent of causing death or serious bodily injury, provoked the use of force against himself in the same encounter; or

(ii) the actor knows that he can avoid the necessity of using such force with complete safety by retreating, except the actor is not obliged to retreat from his dwelling or place of work, unless he was the initial aggressor or is assailed in his place of work by another person whose place of work the actor knows it to be.

(2.1) Except as otherwise provided in paragraph (2.2), an actor is presumed to have a reasonable belief that deadly force is immediately necessary to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse compelled by force or threat if both of the following conditions exist:

(i) The person against whom the force is used is in the process of unlawfully and forcefully entering, or has unlawfully and forcefully entered and is present within, a dwelling, residence or occupied vehicle; or the person against whom the force is used is or is attempting to unlawfully and forcefully remove another against that other's will from the dwelling, residence or occupied vehicle.

(ii) The actor knows or has reason to believe that the unlawful and forceful entry or act is occurring or has occurred.

(2.2) The presumption set forth in paragraph (2.1) does not apply if:

(i) the person against whom the force is used has the right to be in or is a lawful resident of the dwelling, residence or vehicle, such as an owner or lessee;

(ii) the person sought to be removed is a child or grandchild or is otherwise in the lawful custody or under the lawful guardianship of the person against whom the protective force is used;

(iii) the actor is engaged in a criminal activity or is using the dwelling, residence or occupied vehicle to further a criminal activity; or

(iv) the person against whom the force is used is a peace officer acting in the performance of his official duties and the actor using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a peace officer.

*(2.3) An actor who is not engaged in a criminal activity, who is not in illegal possession of a firearm and who is attacked in any place where the actor would have a duty to retreat under paragraph (2)(ii) has no duty to retreat and has the right to stand his ground and use force, including deadly force, if:*

*(i) the actor has a right to be in the place where he was attacked;*

*(ii) the actor believes it is immediately necessary to do so to protect himself against death, serious bodily injury, kidnapping or sexual intercourse by force or threat; and*

*(iii) the person against whom the force is used displays or otherwise uses:*

*(A) a firearm or replica of a firearm as defined in 42 Pa.C.S. § 9712 (relating to sentences for offenses committed with firearms); or*

*(B) any other weapon readily or apparently capable of lethal use*.

(2.4) The exception to the duty to retreat set forth under paragraph (2.3) does not apply if the person against whom the force is used is a peace officer acting in the performance of his official duties and the actor using force knew or reasonably should have known that the person was a peace officer.

*(2.5) Unless one of the exceptions under paragraph (2.2) applies, a person who unlawfully and by force enters or attempts to enter an actor's dwelling, residence or occupied vehicle or removes or attempts to remove another against that other's will from the actor's dwelling, residence or occupied vehicle is presumed to be doing so with the intent to commit:*

*(i) an act resulting in death or serious bodily injury; or*

*(ii) kidnapping or sexual intercourse by force or threat.*

(2.6) A public officer justified in using force in the performance of his duties or a person justified in using force in his assistance or a person justified in using force in making an arrest or preventing an escape is not obliged to desist from efforts to perform such duty, effect such arrest or prevent such escape because of resistance or threatened resistance by or on behalf of the person against whom such action is directed.

(3) Except as otherwise required by this subsection, a person employing protective force may estimate the necessity thereof under the circumstances as he believes them to be when the force is used, without retreating, surrendering possession, doing any other act which he has no legal duty to do or abstaining from any lawful action.

*(c) Use of confinement as protective force.--*The justification afforded by this section extends to the use of confinement as protective force only if the actor takes all reasonable measures to terminate the confinement as soon as he knows that he safely can, unless the person confined has been arrested on a charge of crime.

*(d) Definition.*--As used in this section, the term “criminal activity” means conduct which is a misdemeanor or felony, is not justifiable under this chapter and is related to the confrontation between an actor and the person against whom force is used.


----------



## Scotth (Apr 25, 2012)

policemedic said:


> who is attacked


 
I liked your whole post Policemedic and I think the $20 million dollar question for the jury is how they judge Zimmerman's actions in pursuing the kid.  The prosecutor will obviously argue we may never know exactly what started the confrontation but even if Martin did attack Zimmerman he would never have been attacked in the first place if he hadn't been chasing Martin.

When I think about this case and assuming the generally reported facts are accurate.  If I was in Martin's shoes and someone was following me as I walked down the road and they were in a car.  I would have ran between houses first looking for cover and second to find out what the intentions were of the person following me.  I'm certainly not going to try and confront someone in a vehicle when I'm on foot even if I was armed.  If they left there vehicle coming after me I would have consider my life threaten at that point and pulled my weapon.  If they made a move for their gun I would have put 2 in his chest with out thinking twice.


----------



## SkrewzLoose (Apr 25, 2012)

Scotth said:


> ~snip
> If they made a move for their gun, *bag of skittles or iced tea, cell phone, walkie talkie, etc* I would have put 2 in his chest with out thinking twice.


 
I think that's how Zimmerman has ended up in the spot he's in now.
I wonder how all this would play out if your version happened and TM shot GZ, who was armed at the time.


----------



## JBS (Apr 25, 2012)

The thought of Zimmerman fighting from his back on the ground reminds me of how important it is to be well rounded- especially having the ability to fight from the ground.


----------



## Rabid Badger (Apr 26, 2012)

Scotth said:


> ~ "but even if Martin did attack Zimmerman he would never have been attacked in the first place if he hadn't been* chasing* Martin".


 
Objection your honor. Witness stated that Z was chasing TM when in reality we know that is not the case. "Chasing" infers that TM was running from Z *because Z had threatened TM*. (IANAL)



Scotth said:


> ~ If I was in Martin's shoes and *someone was following me* as I walked down the road and they were in a car~". ~ what the intentions were of the person *following* me.


 
Objection your honor. Witness immediately contradicts himself in his very next sentence. "Following" and "Chasing", especially in context with this case, are two very similar words but with 2 very distinct meanings. (IANAL)



Scotth said:


> ~If they left there vehicle coming after me I would have consider my life threatened at that point and pulled my weapon.


 
And at that point you would be charged with ""Going Armed To The Terror Of The People (GAttTotP)"". You cannot brandish a "weapon" every time someone "leaves a vehicle", unless of course that other person has a weapon, which completely changes this whole scenario. (IANAL)



Scotth said:


> ~If they made a move for their gun I would have put 2 in his chest with out thinking twice.


 
Completely justified, my friend, and you walk, no questions asked, especially if they got too close, you hadn't presented your weapon, and they proceeded to smash your head into the pavement. (IANAL)

So now we see the similarities with this case and your scenario. Would an unarmed man bum rush a man with a gun? Probably not. Stand Your Ground and self defense are on the table in Florida. GAttTotP, notsomuch, but in your scenario it would be.

All supposition of course, and not really related to any facts as have been introduced concerning TM vs. Z.

Ah, the what if's.

2c.


----------



## dknob (Apr 26, 2012)

Shouldn't bring skittles to a gun fight.


----------



## Scotth (Apr 26, 2012)

RB said:


> Objection your honor. Witness stated that Z was chasing TM when in reality we know that is not the case. "Chasing" infers that TM was running from Z *because Z had threatened TM*. (IANAL)


 
Your honor I would have to disagree with my very learned colleagues interpretation of the meaning chasing.  "Chasing" is defined as the act of _Pursuing in order to catch or catch up with_ and doesn't infer any threats have taken place.  Mr. RB's client made statements to the 911 operator that he was fearful that TM was going to escape before the police could arrive.  When Mr. Z left his vehicle he was in foot pursuit of TM which is the very definition of chasing because he caught up to TM.



> Objection your honor. Witness immediately contradicts himself in his very next sentence. "Following" and "Chasing", especially in context with this case, are two very similar words but with 2 very distinct meanings. (IANAL)


 
Your honor I would have to disagree with my colleague once again.  I believe following is an accurate term up and to the point someone leaves there vehicle as illustrated this particular case.  At that point intentions have changed and the threat level has substantially changed for TM.



> And at that point you would be charged with ""Going Armed To The Terror Of The People (GAttTotP)"". You cannot brandish a "weapon" every time someone "leaves a vehicle", unless of course that other person has a weapon, which completely changes this whole scenario. (IANAL)


 
I wouldn't be brandishing my weapon because someone left there car I would be drawing my weapon because someone was chasing me and I was in fear for my life at that point because I hadn't done anything wrong to justify anyone following me much less chasing me.  The only reasonable conclusion I could make at that point is the person pursuing me was out to do harm to me.

In the end I'm happy that the case got investigated thoroughly and the parent of TM deserved that.  I'm going to be good with what ever happens in court no matter if he goes to jail or walks.  People will look at all the evidence and make an informed decision and I will respect what ever decision they make.

Love a good debate my friend.


----------



## Rabid Badger (Apr 26, 2012)

Scotth said:


> The only reasonable conclusion I could make at that point is the person pursuing me was out to do harm to me.
> Love a good debate my friend.


 
"Client counsel, your honor".

*Dammit, Scott*, I told you not to say "out to do harm to me." I told you to say, *"I thought he was going to kill me"!* 

Good debate! Back to regular programming.


----------



## CDG (Apr 26, 2012)

Scotth said:


> People will look at all the evidence and make an informed decision


 
Lol.... Yeah, this sounds like most people these days. :ehh:


----------



## nobodythank you (Apr 26, 2012)

A good article with some back story. Not a full accounting mind you but still has some good parts....
*George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting*


----------



## SkrewzLoose (Apr 26, 2012)

ke4gde said:


> A good article with some back story. Not a full accounting mind you but still has some good parts....
> *George Zimmerman: Prelude to a shooting*


 
Just read that earlier today.  There was some good info contained within.


----------



## Rapid (Apr 26, 2012)

Erm...


----------



## TH15 (May 16, 2012)

*Zimmerman Injuries Include Black Eyes, Fractured  Nose- Court Docs*



> MIAMI –  Court records show George Zimmerman had a pair of black eyes, a nose fracture and two cuts to the back of his head after the fatal shooting of 17-year-old Trayvon Martin.
> 
> The medical records were part of evidence released Tuesday that prosecutors have in the second-degree murder case against Zimmerman. He has entered a plea of not guilty and claims self-defense in the Feb. 26 shooting. A message left Tuesday evening with Zimmerman's attorney was not immediately returned.
> Zimmerman was treated Feb. 27 at Altamonte Family Practice. A phone call made Tuesday evening to the practice rang unanswered.
> ...


 
Certainly gives more credence to Zimmerman's story..


----------



## AWP (May 16, 2012)

Don't water-down my media-instigated racism with FACTS. Geeze....


----------



## JohnnyBoyUSMC (May 16, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Don't water-down my media-instigated racism with FACTS. Geeze....


 
Yea, I prefer to have my hatred of anyone not like me to be continually propped up thanks to the media, your facts are ruining it!!!


----------



## Ranger Psych (May 16, 2012)

Question:

How many burglaries or robberies have occurred in that neighborhood since precious trevyon decided to throw down?


----------



## Scotth (May 16, 2012)

One recent Florida case that may negatively impact Zimmerman's case was the Florida women that was convicted of aggravated assault.  She tried to use the stand your ground defense but the judge wouldn't allow it because she left the house then went back into the house and then discharged the gun. 

I'm not sure they are exactly comparable but if the judge doesn't allow the stand your ground defense Zimmerman could be in real trouble.
http://articles.cnn.com/2012-05-11/...entencing-hearing-florida-woman?_s=PM:JUSTICE


----------



## JBS (May 16, 2012)

Scotth said:


> One recent Florida case that may negatively impact Zimmerman's case was the Florida women that was convicted of aggravated assault. She tried to use the stand your ground defense but the judge wouldn't allow it because she left the house then went back into the house and then discharged the gun.
> 
> I'm not sure they are exactly comparable but if the judge doesn't allow the stand your ground defense Zimmerman could be in real trouble.
> http://articles.cnn.com/2012-05-11/...entencing-hearing-florida-woman?_s=PM:JUSTICE


Yes! I saw this case and it was astonishing!

The woman was sentenced to 20 years for firing a warning shot near her abusive husband (after he repeatedly threatened to kill her)!

Is it just me, or does the law need to be looked at when it is legal to put someone in the grave with a .45, but firing a warning shot (in a safe direction) at one's own discretion to possibly end the engagement peacefully can lead to life in prison?

Wielding deadly force- the premise is that I can be entrusted with the right to defend myself in a life-or-death situation. Can I not be trusted to put a round into the deck in the chance that it might end the engagement without loss of life?  I'm not commenting on which kids of situations might merit this activity, because I suppose a grand case could be made if we wanted to lay this issue out and examine it carefully.  I'm just wondering why warning shots are punished so severely.


----------



## LimaOscarSierraTango (May 16, 2012)

Yeah, she shot into the ceiling and he left after that (probably to change his shorts).  I think she should have shot him, but at the time, I guess she felt a warning was best.  Shit, for 20 years, I bet she wishes she put that round between his eyes.

I was appalled at the decision to put her behind bars.


----------



## TH15 (May 16, 2012)

Kill your child and don't report it for a month. Walk.

Fire a warning shot at your abusive husband. 20 years.

Shoot someone who is beating the shit out of you. Get charged with 2nd degree murder & the whole country thinks you're racist.


Florida is confusing.


----------



## nobodythank you (May 16, 2012)

TH15 said:


> *(1)* Kill your child and don't report it for a month. Walk.
> 
> *(2) *Fire a warning shot at your abusive husband. 20 years.
> 
> ...


Look no offense, but ignorant statements breed stereotypes that are misleading....

1.) The prosecution failed to prove its case for the charges sought. The only reason she walked was because the state attorney was an idiot and went for the sexy charge the public wanted instead of the charge he could prove. Was she guilty of something? Absolutely. Just not the charge she was given. The jury did the right thing.

2.) There is no difference or differentiation between a warning shot and a successful hit in this state according to the law. When that weapon is discharged it is deadly force regardless of where aimed or where hit. Not being familiar with the particulars of this case I just wanted to point out that in this state discharge of a firearm at or near another human being is deadly force. There is no line drawn between drilling the ten ring or popping one off in the air.

3.) He was charged with 2nd degree murder because of factors other than just having the shit beat out of him. He apparently did place himself in that situation. Until the trail plays out and we see all the evidence then it's up in the air.


----------



## JBS (May 16, 2012)

ke4gde said:


> 2.) There is no difference or differentiation between a warning shot and a successful hit in this state according to the law. When that weapon is discharged it is deadly force regardless of where aimed or where hit. Not being familiar with the particulars of this case I just wanted to point out that in this state discharge of a firearm at or near another human being is deadly force. There is no line drawn between drilling the ten ring or popping one off in the air...


 
Yes, and that's what makes it bone-assed ridiculous.

There might not be a difference in what some mouth breathing committee typed on a piece of paper when the law was drafted, but there's a staggering difference in terms of loss of life or limb, the long term ramifications from a psychological perspective, the possibility of creating orphans in a moment of confrontation, and the impact on people's lives when deadly force is *actually* used. Compare actually using a firearm in self defense against another person, versus deliberately and carefully firing a single round into the deck which-_ no matter what Florida legislators say-_ is not deadly force. Classifying a responsible warning shot as "deadly force" is a trick of verbiage and lawyering.

And, just to be clear, I'm not even advocating the use of warning shots one way or the other. I'm just pointing out how asinine a law can be when someone is *DELIBERATELY avoiding the taking of human life,* and getting sentenced to 20 years for it. Maybe it should be illegal, but should someone get sentenced to 20 years for that?


----------



## policemedic (May 16, 2012)

JBS said:


> Classifying a responsible warning shot as "deadly force" is a trick of verbiage and lawyering.


 
Responsible is the catch.  There is a world of difference between someone deliberately putting a round into a safe backstop and what most people do, which is haphazardly sending a ballistic cry for help into the surrounding neighborhood.  I'm not sure that sending a round into the ceiling Old West style constitutes using a safe backstop.



JBS said:


> And, just to be clear, I'm not even advocating the use of warning shots one way or the other. I'm just pointing out how asinine a law can be when someone is *DELIBERATELY avoiding the taking of human life,* and getting sentenced to 20 years for it. Maybe it should be illegal, but should someone get sentenced to 20 years for that?


 
No.


----------



## Scotth (May 16, 2012)

Just to be clear she was sentenced to 20 years because the legislature took the discretion out of the judges hands by making mandatory minimums. 

Plus with the judges ruling that it wasn't self defense because she went back into the house with the gun was what brought the heavy charges.  The minute the judge block the stand your ground defense she should have taken the plea deal.


----------



## Loki (May 16, 2012)

Amazing in modern America that such radical groups such as the New Black Panthers can openly exist and the Federal government takes no action. Isn't this the same trash that intimidated voters at the poles in Philly? The attorney general sees no wrong doing and is not morally obligated to prosecute these racists. I dare any other group of people in America to attempt such activities. Just disgusting...


----------



## TH15 (May 17, 2012)

*Autopsy: Trayvon Martin Had Weed in His System*



> Trayvon Martin, the 17-year-old who was shot and killed by a neighborhood watch volunteer, had the drug THC in his system the night of this death, according to new information obtained by ABC News.​​The revelation came as prosecutors in the case prepared to release to the public hundreds of pages of new evidence along with videos and crime scene photos.​
> Martin's death sparked public outrage after police released Martin's shooter, George Zimmerman, without any criminal charges for the killing.​
> Zimmerman, 28, is a multi-racial Hispanic man who shot the black high school junior at close range on Feb. 26, and claimed self-defense, though Martin was unarmed. Zimmerman was later charged with second-degree murder, and the killing provoked widespread debate about racial profiling.​
> The autopsy report shows traces of the drug THC, which is found in marijuana, in Martin's blood and urine.​
> ...


 
http://abcnews.go.com/US/trayvon-ma...orge-zimmerman/story?id=16371852#.T7Vq8-uJeWY

So, he's suspended from school for smoking weed and he's got weed in his system the night of the incident. The evidence surrounding Trayvon Martin as a person tells me all I need to know. I can't wait to see how this trial plays out.


----------



## pardus (May 17, 2012)

Surprise surprise. Despite all the evidence some people will still think hes an innocent little saint.


----------



## CDG (May 17, 2012)

This case has sparked quite a bit of talk about neighborhood watches and whether or not they are viable, and also whether or not the members should be allowed to be armed.  Perhaps you can make the argument that Zimmerman only felt confident enough to follow Trayvon in the first place due to his having a gun on him.  However, I would argue that Zimmerman would have followed him anyways, and being that Trayvon then turned and attacked, had Zimmerman not been armed we would be dealing with a much different situation.  Somehow I think plenty of people would still be blaming a dead/seriously injured Zimmerman and the self-defense argument would be more than allowable for Trayvon Martin.  Fortunately, it seems this case had the right ending.  One less wannabe gangsta fucktard in the world.


----------



## Rabid Badger (May 18, 2012)

CDG said:


> This case has sparked quite a bit of talk about neighborhood watches and whether or not they are viable, and also whether or not the members should be allowed to be armed.


 
Neighborhood watches do not add to nor take away a citizens right to keep and bear arms. If a "walker" around my neighborhood is carrying, so be it, I do, and as long as they're abiding by state laws it is completely legal.

http://sogweb.sog.unc.edu/blogs/ncclaw/?tag=stand-your-ground



CDG said:


> ........ Fortunately, it seems this case had the right ending. One less wannabe gangsta fucktard in the world.


 
Agree.


----------



## Marauder06 (May 18, 2012)

If there is a "walker" in your neighborhood, you need to give him two to the head!  









Oh, not that kind of walker ;)


----------



## Loki (May 18, 2012)

I blame the parents who failed to take responsibility and enabled this young man towards this behavior. I have seen these parents before many , many times visiting their sons in prisons, jails and at crimes scenes. Worthless self proclaimed victims of popular culture looking for a Klansman under every bed or rouge cops gone wild, pointing fingers. They never looking at themselves or their lack of leadership, example and guidance for these young people. They enable their children with excuses for horrible behavior the ones they are vested in raising and giving to our society as productive adults contributing to our America. With a obvious lack of discipline, respect and basic courtesy towards others. Obviously this brat attacked Zimmerman. Do I agree with Zimmerman's actions... No! Shooting was an extreme last resort and I would have hoped he would have whipped this punks ass and put the puke in the hospital. Although I feel the shooting was justified I don't feel it was necessary based on the information I have read and viewed regarding this. Of course I don't know the true story or the facts nor does anyone else at this point. Nor I'm I sympathetic towards the family or this Man/ kid / thug. The medical reports from Zimmerman's Doctor I heard on three separate news channels indicates he had a broken nose, lacerations to his face and numerous other injuries. The medical reports also fail to state Zimmerman's knuckles were marked up from putting hands on this idiot. Based on those reports its pretty plain he was attacked and assaulted by the subject and the shooting was in response to this personal bodily attack.

I have two sons and if my son attacked a man on his property, trespassed, utlilized violence and used the type of language toward the man this puke did then so be it. I would be upset at the loss of my son but accept that he caused his death through his uncivilized and criminal behavior. Of course I believe in merit, personal responsibility, civilized society and not being a victim...


----------



## SkrewzLoose (May 18, 2012)

That's the first bit of clip art in quite some time Marauder06 .  Have you really been that busy with school?  :-"


----------



## Loki (May 19, 2012)

_"So many aspects of the Feb. 26 altercation and shooting in Sanford remain muddy. Who threw the first punch? Why did Zimmerman leave his car? This cache of recordings, photos and statements is far from all the evidence. But it suggests there are answers we may never truly get."​_





http://www.rgj.com/viewart/20120519/NEWS12/305190028/Evidence-released-Trayvon-Martin-shooting-case


----------



## CDG (May 19, 2012)

Tamara Lave is an idiot.  The facts are not malleable and gray.  Facts are fucking facts.  Her statement is one of someone who made a rush to judgment before any facts were in and now realizes they were so far off they can't possibly defend their initial position.


----------



## Etype (May 19, 2012)

CDG said:


> The facts are not malleable and gray. Facts are fucking facts.


One of my father-in-law's favorite statements to use when talking politics is, "lets not cloud the matter with facts."


----------



## nobodythank you (May 23, 2012)

JBS said:


> Yes, and that's what makes it bone-assed ridiculous.
> 
> There might not be a difference in what some mouth breathing committee typed on a piece of paper when the law was drafted, but there's a staggering difference in terms of loss of life or limb, the long term ramifications from a psychological perspective, the possibility of creating orphans in a moment of confrontation, and the impact on people's lives when deadly force is *actually* used. Compare actually using a firearm in self defense against another person, versus deliberately and carefully firing a single round into the deck which-_ no matter what Florida legislators say-_ is not deadly force. Classifying a responsible warning shot as "deadly force" is a trick of verbiage and lawyering.
> 
> And, just to be clear, I'm not even advocating the use of warning shots one way or the other. I'm just pointing out how asinine a law can be when someone is *DELIBERATELY avoiding the taking of human life,* and getting sentenced to 20 years for it. Maybe it should be illegal, but should someone get sentenced to 20 years for that?


Sorry a bit late. Family stuff....

Yes and No. The issue isn't what mouth breathing committee typed up. It's the fact that there was a need for a legal definition of what deadly force constituted. The way it was written.. right or wrong.. is what's mostly worked for a long while. Discharging a firearm at someone (whether deadly or not; aimed or not) is an act of deadly force upon another person. That's how you get the justification for the crime of aggravated assault.

If she went back into the house and then came back out as stated above then she isn't a victim but now the criminal. Extenuating circumstances aside she was not in immediate danger of death or great bodily harm if she was able to disengage her attacker, go inside, retrieve a handgun, come back outside, and fire a warning shot. Not saying the guy prob didn't deserve it, but it is how the law views it. Deadly force is the same with a hit or miss. Remember if it wasn't there would need to be another long lengthy committee to define what a miss is and what a hit is and what would signify what the intent was. Gets was too complicated.


----------



## AWP (May 30, 2012)

Interesting story with a nice tie-in to the Trayvan case and the woman sentenced to 20 years. Corrine Brown...we've discussed her ineptitude here before, and the NAACP are now protesting the conviction of Ms. Alexander and her 20 year sentencing.

http://jacksonville.com/news/crime/...all-out-jacksonville-law-enforcement-agencies



> The NAACP’s Jacksonville chapter held a vigil Tuesday morning in protest of Marissa Alexander’s 20-year prison sentence, but it was U.S. Rep. Corrine Brown’s voice that may have been the loudest.
> Brown, chapter president Isaiah Rumlin and a handful of pastors joined together at Bethel Baptist Institutional Church, calling out area law enforcement agencies and justice systems over the application of Florida’s “10-20-Life” statute.


 
While I think they have a bit of a point and the woman shouldn't have taken a sentence that heavy, here are some other gems from the story:


> Meanwhile, Alexander’s trial attorney, Kevin Cobbin, said it was the discretion of the prosecutors to apply the “10-20-Life” statutes.


Okay, who is the prosecutor?


> State Attorney Angela Corey responded by saying the criticisms that she has taken over the case have come loaded with misinformation and inaccuracies.


Oh...the same prosecutor in the Martin case. Alrighty then.

Corey offered Ms. Alexander a 3 year plea deal which Alexander declined. I have to wonder how much this case will effect State vs. Zimmerman, especially since Corey didn't have to apply the 10-20-Life statute but chose to do so.


----------



## Scotth (May 30, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Corey offered Ms. Alexander a 3 year plea deal which Alexander declined. I have to wonder how much this case will effect State vs. Zimmerman, especially since Corey didn't have to apply the 10-20-Life statute but chose to do so.


 
I think the bigger issue from that case, that could impact Zimmerman, was the judge not allowing the stand your ground self defense argument because she went back into the house.

The second that the judge disallowed that defense Alexander was a fool not to make a plea deal.


----------



## Rabid Badger (May 30, 2012)

Scotth said:


> I think the bigger issue from that case, that could impact Zimmerman, was the judge not allowing the stand your ground self defense argument because she went back into the house.
> 
> The second that the judge disallowed that defense Alexander was a fool not to make a plea deal.


 
not following your logic. Please expound? She could've stayed in the house after breaking contact. Z was on his back getting his head bashed in.


----------



## Scotth (May 30, 2012)

RB said:


> not following your logic. Please expound? She could've stayed in the house after breaking contact. Z was on his back getting his head bashed in.


 
The way I see the issue is how will the trial of Zimmerman be defined. Will the judge/jury only consider the end of the conflict or will they judge the entirety of the incident? If the judge/jury only looks the end of the incident then Zimmerman will walk because the case will be judge as self defense.

In the Alexander case the judge didn't allow the stand your ground defense because she had broken contact and could have avoided the contact that lead to the shooting. In a similar way Zimmerman could have avoid contact with Martin and if this judge takes a similar view and disallows a self defense argument because the confrontation could have been avoided, Zimmerman isn't going to have much of a defense. With the same lawyer in both cases you have to believe they are going to use a similar game plan and try to block the self defense argument.

If he is convicted, I doubt the Murder 2 charge will stick but it is my understanding that he can be convicted on a lessor charge. Of course I'm basing my opinion on what has been written and I certainly wouldn't argue that the public accounts are completely accurate. I think Zimmerman has a pretty decent lawyer now but there will be some hurdles that will need to be negotiated before the end of this trial.


----------



## Loki (May 31, 2012)




----------



## Ranger Psych (Jun 1, 2012)

Scotth said:


> The way I see the issue is how will the trial of Zimmerman be defined. Will the judge/jury only consider the end of the conflict or will they judge the entirety of the incident? If the judge/jury only looks the end of the incident then Zimmerman will walk because the case will be judge as self defense.
> 
> In the Alexander case the judge didn't allow the stand your ground defense because she had broken contact and could have avoided the contact that lead to the shooting. In a similar way Zimmerman could have avoid contact with Martin and if this judge takes a similar view and disallows a self defense argument because the confrontation could have been avoided, Zimmerman isn't going to have much of a defense. With the same lawyer in both cases you have to believe they are going to use a similar game plan and try to block the self defense argument.
> 
> If he is convicted, I doubt the Murder 2 charge will stick but it is my understanding that he can be convicted on a lessor charge. Of course I'm basing my opinion on what has been written and I certainly wouldn't argue that the public accounts are completely accurate. I think Zimmerman has a pretty decent lawyer now but there will be some hurdles that will need to be negotiated before the end of this trial.


 
Well, the thing is, as far as I understand things... the judge is the one who determines the validity of the necessity of self defense and if its applicable as an affirmative defense of the use of force. I don't think it goes to a jury until the point where that defense is rendered invalid by the judge. Basically, interpretation of the law falls to the judge, the jury determines innocence or guilt within the law and gets clarifications regarding law from the judge.


----------



## TH15 (Jun 1, 2012)

FOX News is reporting that the judge has revoked Zimmerman's bond. He has 48 hours to surrender.


----------



## Scotth (Jun 1, 2012)

Saw that story on CNN. It was already reported back in April that he never report the $200k he raised on his website at the time of the bail hearing. The one thing that probably brought this on was:


> Prosecutors argued that Zimmerman "misrepresented, misled and deceived the court" during an April bond hearing *about whether he had a U.S. passport* and about his family's financial circumstances.


Not telling them about that is a big no go.
http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/01/justice/florida-teen-shooting/index.html?hpt=hp_t1


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 10, 2012)

"I Am Trayvon Martin" and for $9.99, you can be, too!

Trayvon's mother copyrights catchphrases:

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123


----------



## TH15 (Jun 10, 2012)

Cashing in on her son's death....classy.


In that case, I'm trademarking "bath salts!"


----------



## pardus (Jun 11, 2012)

The sad thing is if Zimmerman gets off this BS charge he's still going to face this bitch suing him in civi court to make her coin.


----------



## Gypsy (Jun 11, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> "I Am Trayvon Martin" and for $9.99, you can be, too!
> 
> Trayvon's mother copyrights catchphrases:
> 
> http://www.thesmokinggun.com/documents/trayvon-martin-trademarks-769123


 
She did that the day or the day after her son died.  I remember hearing about it, and thought it smacked of something or other.


----------



## TH15 (Jun 21, 2012)

Video of Zimmerman reenacting the incident for investigators.

http://abcnews.go.com/US/george-zim...artin-shooting/story?id=16616864#.T-MiF7WJeWY


----------



## Ranger Psych (Jun 21, 2012)

I love the media spin shit in the text. I watched the videos through his re-enactment and the interview before I read the text.

He saw a shady dude in an area that's been having problems with shady dudes doing shady shit.

He kept him in sight while on the phone, then went to link up with PD at his car, with no verbal contact or physical contact with now dead turd.

Dead turd initiates an assault. Dead turd sees, then attempts to go for Zim's pistol, Zim retains, draws, and engages after already having his head beat in on a concrete sidewalk and his face pummeled.

The internet style meme quote for this, in my opinion, should be

"problem, officer?"

Awesome that 2 people stuck their heads out and/or were present before, and after, the shooting.. and neither fucking helped.  That right there would give me cause to move away from there, if nothing else.


----------



## Etype (Jun 21, 2012)

Ranger Psych said:


> Awesome that 2 people stuck their heads out and/or were present before, and after, the shooting.. and neither fucking helped. That right there would give me cause to move away from there, if nothing else.


 
We (insert description of "our" group here) all need to pool our money and buy an island- maybe a couple islands, maybe in the Aleutians- and vet folks before they are allowed to move in.


----------



## TH15 (Jun 21, 2012)

Ranger Psych said:


> Awesome that 2 people stuck their heads out and/or were present before, and after, the shooting.. and neither fucking helped. That right there would give me cause to move away from there, if nothing else.


I was thinking the same thing. Probably the same "witnesses" who have changed their original story.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Jun 21, 2012)

My neighborhood up in AK I only knew 3 of my neighbors. Across the street were 2 families with multiple kids, one stay at home dad in one, one stay at home mom at the other. Right side another family, stay at home mom, hubby worked, multiple kids. Everyone ate fresh moose meat pretty often.  One family across the street had a German Shepherd and another dog, both outside dogs. Other family had an inside dog, and I had Xerxes (My German Shepherd).

If ANYONE in our "quad" of sorts heard odd shit, you'd see exterior floodlights getting turned on on all houses, spotlight from upstairs in one house panning,  people peeking out windows with black straight objects visible as well...

At that point I'd let Xerxes out to go piss. Figure a big ass German Shepherd trotting around and getting in a barking contest with the dogs across the street would provide adequate reason for anyone who didn't live there to depart in a hasty manner...


----------



## Etype (Jun 21, 2012)

Yep.  My first response is always to let my two rottweilers out to run a couple laps around the house.  I have 3 other SF guys on one side of me, and the only house that is on the other side is a guy in the q-course.


----------



## CDG (Jun 21, 2012)

Etype said:


> Yep. My first response is always to let my two rottweilers out to run a couple laps around the house. I have 3 other SF guys on one side of me, and the only house that is on the other side is a guy in the q-course.


 
Lol.... So someone with nefarious intentions would basically be attacking half an ODA.  I really want some shithead to try something in your neighborhood just so I can read the AAR.


----------



## Rabid Badger (Jul 16, 2012)

> http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/17/us/george-zimmerman-accused-of-molesting.html
> 
> MIAMI – An Orlando woman now in her mid-20s told investigators that George Zimmerman, who is charged with second-degree murder in the killing of Trayvon Martin, molested her over a decade, beginning when they were both young children, according to an audio tape released on Monday.
> 
> The woman, whose parents were close to the Zimmerman family, talked to investigators on March 20. Identified only as Witness 9, she said she had come forward now, a decade after her last encounter with Mr. Zimmerman, 28, because, after his arrest, she was no longer afraid of him.


 
No longer afraid of him? What a crock.

Unbelievable. Good luck finding a non-biased jury for this one. #9 now will be investigated for her whole past, and should be.

Wouldn't surprise me a bit if they found Black Panther phone numbers or Al Sharpton's phone number on her cell phone bill.

GMAB.


----------



## AWP (Jul 16, 2012)

Tawana Brawley...paging Tawana Brawley to the (insert color here) courtesy phone.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 16, 2012)

-if it happened when they were "both young children," then I'm not sure how he would be criminally liable in the first place.

-if it happened when they were "both young children," I've got to imagine that the statute of limitations has expired by now.

-smells attention-whorish to me.


----------



## RetPara (Jul 17, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> -if it happened when they were "both young children," then I'm not sure how he would be criminally liable in the first place.
> -smells attention-whorish to me.


 
Depends on the state for length of statute of limitations.  Some crimes usually murder, do not have a limit.


----------



## Scotth (Jul 17, 2012)

> Mr. Zimmerman’s lawyer, Mark O’Mara, who first sought to block the release of Witness 9’s statement on June 18, called the allegations irrelevant to the case and inadmissible in court. Mr. O’Mara said the statement should have been withheld from the public because it would lead to “widespread hostile publicity” and would taint Mr. Zimmerman’s right to a fair trial.


 
Why the murder investigators would be involved in this is beyond me? If you think it has merit then start a second investigation. Releasing this information doesn't reflect well on the prosecutor and they should have wipe there hands of this mess from day one.


----------



## JBS (Jul 17, 2012)

It does wonders to smear the defendant, however.  In the minds of some, Zimmerman is the devil, and this is going to reinforce that idea.


----------



## pardus (Jul 17, 2012)

I can already see the book deals for the judge,  jury, defendant, family members now....


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 17, 2012)

Headline:  "Zimmerman Called Koran-Burning Pastor Terry Jones from Jail."

Reading that headline, I can just imagine the colluding that the racist and the Islamophobe are doing.

Oh wait, you have to read down into the article to find out that Zimmerman called Jones to ask him NOT to stir things up on his behalf.


----------



## pardus (Jul 17, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> Headline: "Zimmerman Called Koran-Burning Pastor Terry Jones from Jail."
> 
> Reading that headline, I can just imagine the colluding that the racist and the Islamophobe are doing.
> 
> Oh wait, you have to read down into the article to find out that Zimmerman called Jones to ask him NOT to stir things up on his behalf.


 
Are you fucking kidding me!?

I despise the media!!!


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 18, 2012)

pardus said:


> Are you fucking kidding me!?
> 
> I despise the media!!!



Like it or not nowadays the media's job is to sell papers or ad space, that headline sells better ad space is all.


----------



## The Hate Ape (Jul 18, 2012)

Of course it would - because this entire case has become a soap opera. Forget the media, I despise people..


----------



## TH15 (Jul 18, 2012)

George Zimmerman will be on Hannity tonight at 9 PM Eastern. This should be very interesting.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 18, 2012)

TH15 said:


> George Zimmerman will be on Hannity tonight at 9 PM Eastern. This should be very interesting.


 
I won't be able to watch it... I hope someone posts a summary.


----------



## Gypsy (Jul 19, 2012)

Missed it.  AAR anyone?


----------



## AWP (Oct 20, 2012)

Kids, think your Facebook page doesn't matter?

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/10/20/u...tin-case-says-his-files-can-be-used.html?_r=2&



> MIAMI — A judge in the second-degree murder case against George Zimmerman, the Sanford, Fla., man who said he shot an unarmed teenager, Trayvon Martin, in self-defense, ruled on Friday that Mr. Martin’s school and social media records should be provided to the defense.
> The judge, Debra S. Nelson of Seminole County Circuit Court, said Mr. Martin’s Twitter, Facebook and school records were relevant in the self-defense case.
> In those instances, showing whether a victim “had an alleged propensity to violence” or aggression is germane, the judge said.


----------



## CDG (Oct 20, 2012)

The right call, IMO.  If you want to give off the persona of being some gangster or thug, then expect to be treated as such.  Actions and words have consequences.  The technology this generation is growing up with has alleviated a lot of accountability and allowed people to develop a mindset of being able to say whatever the hell they want without fear of retribution.


----------



## cbtengr (Oct 20, 2012)

CDG very well said!!


----------



## 0699 (Oct 20, 2012)

CDG said:


> The right call, IMO. If you want to give off the persona of being some gangster or thug, then expect to be treated as such. Actions and words have consequences. The technology this generation is growing up with has alleviated a lot of accountability and allowed people to develop a mindset of being able to say whatever the hell they want without fear of retribution.


 
So did Zimmerman have access to Martin's Facebook page before he shot him?  Or was Zimmerman only making a decision based on the facts immediately before him?


----------



## Ranger Psych (Oct 20, 2012)

The problem that the defense is having to address with this whole facebook crap, is the most vivid portrayal of Martin... to give a mental picture for the jury as to what Zimmerman was seeing as he was assaulted, prior to having to drop the hammer.


----------



## parallel (Oct 20, 2012)

0699 said:


> So did Zimmerman have access to Martin's Facebook page before he shot him? Or was Zimmerman only making a decision based on the facts immediately before him?


I'm guessing that Zimmerman was making a decision based on facts that are SUPPORTED by Martin's Facebook page and which are in direct conflict with the narrative that lead to belated charges being filed against him.


----------



## JBS (Oct 20, 2012)

It's a double edged sword.  People sometimes misrepresent themselves online.  The defense can easily pull up other online personas and demonstrate that the things said on the internet are not reliable indicators of who a person is.  I think Martin was a rough kid and probably could have killed or given brain damage to Zimmerman in their confrontation, but I doubt the Facebook thing is going to make anything a slam dunk.


----------



## AWP (Oct 20, 2012)

There are a number of ways Zimmerman can "win" and one of those is making the deceased look bad. Not the first time in a court of law and it won't be the last. This is why you have a character witness(es) in a trial, to support or refute the behavior of the parties involved. No doubt the prosecution will have a bunch of "He was a wonderful, Godly child who never hurt a fly" friends and family prepared to show up. By allowing Martin's school and online presence to be known, the defense can discredit some of those witnesses or at least lessen their impact.

With the records becoming evidence, this also forces the prosecution to expend time and energy finding ways to offset whatever's contained in them. If the defense has witnesses who would testify that Martin was angry, "thuggish", or whatever the records could also help support those claims.

Many of us have teens. How many times have we asked them "What did you do today" or "What are doing now" only to be told "Nothing"? "Nothing"...this provides the defense with something to fill in the "nothings" in Martin's short life.


----------



## 0699 (Oct 20, 2012)

parallel said:


> I'm guessing that Zimmerman was making a decision based on facts that are SUPPORTED by Martin's Facebook page and which are in direct conflict with the narrative that lead to belated charges being filed against him.


 
I'm trying to not be a Monday morning quarterback, but instead judge Zimmerman's actions using the same information he had.  Just as the defense can use social media to vilify Martin, I don't believe the prosecution should be able to say all these great innocent things about him, if that information wasn't available to Zimmerman when he killed Martin.  It's really easy to sit back now and talk of Skittles and Facebook pages, but IMO only those facts available to Zimmerman should be in evidence.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Oct 20, 2012)

0699 said:


> I'm trying to not be a Monday morning quarterback, but instead judge Zimmerman's actions using the same information he had. Just as the defense can use social media to vilify Martin, I don't believe the prosecution should be able to say all these great innocent things about him, if that information wasn't available to Zimmerman when he killed Martin. It's really easy to sit back now and talk of Skittles and Facebook pages, but IMO only those facts available to Zimmerman should be in evidence.


 
Concur. Attorneys do a remarkably good job of taking one from where you should be, to where they want you to be. That is how the guilty get off, and sometimes the innocent pay an unjust price.

RF 1


----------



## parallel (Oct 20, 2012)

0699 said:


> I'm trying to not be a Monday morning quarterback, but instead judge Zimmerman's actions using the same information he had. Just as the defense can use social media to vilify Martin, I don't believe the prosecution should be able to say all these great innocent things about him, if that information wasn't available to Zimmerman when he killed Martin. It's really easy to sit back now and talk of Skittles and Facebook pages, but IMO only those facts available to Zimmerman should be in evidence.


I get that, but the genie is already out of the bottle. The ONLY reason this has even gone to trial is the Monday morning quarterbacking that went on in the press.


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 21, 2012)

Self defense.

Momma says he was an angel who would never do drugs or get into fights.
Facebook and School records (along with Coroner's Report) may say otherwise.

Establish that Trayvon was a drug using, angry black man, and you further justify self-defense.


----------



## Rabid Badger (Oct 21, 2012)

SOWT said:


> Self defense.
> 
> Momma says he was an angel who would never do drugs or get into fights.
> Facebook and School records (along with Coroner's Report) may say otherwise.
> ...


 
"Self-defense" and/or "Stand your ground".......I know, I know......not using this angle......but I would still use it.

Succint SOWT, and winnable on your words alone.


----------



## SkrewzLoose (Mar 7, 2013)

Sorry for the slight necro-post, but saw this pop up today.



> In the year since it landed on the international news radar, the Trayvon Martin case has raised a global discussion about Florida's controversial "Stand Your Ground" law. But in a stunning twist of events Tuesday morning, George Zimmerman's attorneys waived their client's right to a scheduled April 22 hearing that was to be held under the law that has sparked so much debate,​ABC news reports.​


​ 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...-ground_n_2812347.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular


----------



## pardus (Mar 7, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Sorry for the slight necro-post, but saw this pop up today.


 
Not necro, case is still ongoing and is therefore relevant.  Thanks for this.


----------



## dknob (Mar 8, 2013)

Did they ever give back the confiscated skittles to the kid?

I vaguely remember this case.


----------



## pardus (Mar 8, 2013)

dknob said:


> Did they ever give back the confiscated skittles to the kid?
> 
> I vaguely remember this case.


 
What kid?

There were only adults involved in this case.


----------



## AWP (Mar 8, 2013)

Egyptians, Vikings, and Mayans were buried with weapons and animals for the afterlife and as a sign of respect.

Did Skittles replace broadswords? Personally, I'd want a cricket bat and sand wedge with me if I were to occupy real estate


----------



## DA SWO (Mar 8, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Sorry for the slight necro-post, but saw this pop up today.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/...-ground_n_2812347.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular


Turns out the girlfriend has been caught lying under oath, that puts the prosecutor and judge between a rock and a hard place.

Watching them weasel out should be fun.


----------



## dknob (Mar 8, 2013)

pardus said:


> What kid?
> 
> There were only adults involved in this case.


So Trayvon never got his skittles back?

Lame.


----------



## Brill (Feb 25, 2014)

Z has 5 guns with 100 rounds and that's an arsenal?  Uh oh...

http://www.cnn.com/video/standard.h...ideo_referrer=http://www.cnn.com/?hpt=sitenav


----------



## policemedic (Feb 25, 2014)

Nancy Grace needs to take her head out of her ass.


----------



## TLDR20 (Feb 25, 2014)

Well Nancy grace was just moved to the top of  TLDR20's "worlds most annoying person" list. The way she talks is absolutely horrible. I can't believe she has her own show!


----------



## Centermass (Feb 25, 2014)

lindy said:


> Z has 5 guns with 100 rounds and that's an arsenal?  Uh oh...



Larry Elder hit the nail on the head. Nancy Grace needs to shut her cock holster.



TLDR20 said:


> Well Nancy grace was just moved to the top of  TLDR20's "worlds most annoying person" list. The way she talks is absolutely horrible. I can't believe she has her own show!



If she was unbiased and unobjective as to her questioning, that would be one thing. The fact that not only her tone snarks of sensationalism to get a reaction, her law back ground and her disregard for legal understanding makes me cringe.


----------



## pardus (Feb 25, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> Well Nancy grace was just moved to the top of  TLDR20's "worlds most annoying person" list. The way she talks is absolutely horrible. I can't believe she has her own show!



No shit! I couldn't even finish watching the cow.


----------



## AWP (May 11, 2015)

Meanwhile, in Florida...AKA "not far from where my mail goes"...


Not 2 minutes from where I live:
http://www.clickorlando.com/news/ge...-in-shooting-in-lake-mary-police-say/32943940

LAKE MARY, Fla. -

George Zimmerman was involved in a shooting Monday in Lake Mary, police said.

The shooting took place on Lake Mary Boulevard near Rinehart Road, east of Interstate 4. 

It's not known what prompted the shooting, but Lake Mary police said two vehicles were involved


----------



## TLDR20 (May 11, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Meanwhile, in Florida...AKA "not far from where my mail goes"...
> 
> 
> Not 2 minutes from where I live:
> ...



This dude is going to kill more Americans than Ebola...


----------



## policemedic (May 11, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Meanwhile, in Florida...AKA "not far from where my mail goes"...
> 
> 
> Not 2 minutes from where I live:
> ...



Color me surprised....NOT.


----------



## Florida173 (May 11, 2015)

A friend of mine used to live in a neighborhood adjacent to him.. I'm glad I live over in South Tampa..


----------



## pardus (May 11, 2015)

We should take bets on how long he stays either alive or out of jail.
He's a magnet for trouble.


----------



## HOLLiS (May 11, 2015)

The media screwed Zimmerman so many ways this side of Sunday.   He should just change his name to Target.  He may not be the sharpest pencil in the box, but as Pardus stated, "He is a magnet for trouble."   The cost of the wrong kind of fame.


----------



## JBS (May 11, 2015)

Am I the only one who saw this headline and immediately jumped to the (wrong) conclusion that Zimmerman was out being a pistolero, and shooting up the city?


----------



## DA SWO (May 11, 2015)

PTSD/TBI related issues?
He needs professional help, and soon.


----------



## reed11b (May 11, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> PTSD/TBI related issues?
> He needs professional help, and soon.


 For being shot at?
Reed


----------



## AWP (May 11, 2015)

reed11b said:


> For being shot at?
> Reed



For living in Florida.


----------



## HOLLiS (May 11, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> PTSD/TBI related issues?
> He needs professional help, and soon.



I agree with you, but he needs much more than that.   Sadly what the media done to him can not be fixed.  He is tagged as a racist vigilante who murdered in cold blood that cute 10 year old kid in a football jersey, not some person who was trying to keep his brains from being bashed out by some thug.


----------



## nobodythank you (May 11, 2015)

HOLLiS said:


> The media screwed Zimmerman so many ways this side of Sunday.   He should just change his name to Target.  He may not be the sharpest pencil in the box, but as Pardus stated, "He is a magnet for trouble."   The cost of the wrong kind of fame.


The media played their role certainly, but Zimmerman screwed himself but putting himself into the situation. He is reaping what he has sown. The shoot was justified in the context of self defense, but he created the exigent circumstances that lead to the use of force. He thinks he knows more than what he does and will eventually bite off more than he can chew.


----------



## HOLLiS (May 11, 2015)

ke4gde said:


> The media played their role certainly, but Zimmerman screwed himself but putting himself into the situation. He is reaping what he has sown. The shoot was justified in the context of self defense, but he created the exigent circumstances that lead to the use of force. He thinks he knows more than what he does and will eventually bite off more than he can chew.




IF you read my post, I mentioned he was not the sharpest pencil in the box.    BTW, I agree with you.  What happened was when two idiots collided.  On top of that we have the media.  Remember MSMBC altering the 911 tapes to make Zimmerman look even worse.   

The whole altercation could have been easily avoided.  If we throw blame around,  IMHO, both Zimmerman and Martin has their fair share of blame.  I would still place the onus on the media not for what happened, but how it is perceived.


----------



## nobodythank you (May 11, 2015)

HOLLiS said:


> IF you read my post, I mentioned he was not the sharpest pencil in the box.    BTW, I agree with you.  What happened was when two idiots collided.  On top of that we have the media.  Remember MSMBC altering the 911 tapes to make Zimmerman look even worse.
> 
> The whole altercation could have been easily avoided.  If we throw blame around,  IMHO, both Zimmerman and Martin has their fair share of blame.  I would still place the onus on the media not for what happened, but how it is perceived.


That is true to an extent, but the media has never and probably will never be relied upon to be impartial as originally intended. Zimmerman took advantage of a flaw in the law where he created his own exigent circumstances. Had he not done that the media would have found something else to sniff. I place a large portion of the blame on him because it is his responsibility as a concealed carrying citizen to be responsible with the right that was granted to him. He wanted to play billy badass and ended up almost losing his head.

The media and Martin bear their own blame of course.


----------



## HOLLiS (May 11, 2015)

Ke4gde.   I would argue that politically they wanted to hang Zimmerman and if they could have found a way, they would have.  The court's opinion was based on law, so he walked.    I agree with you that he could have easily have avoided the confrontation and so could have Martin.  Also The key aspect of the defense was that Martin attacked Zimmerman as he walked back to his truck and was bashing his head against the concrete.   At that point,  Zimmerman's response was justified.   Zimmerman was walking back to his truck because he lost contract with Martin.   I am not interested in revisiting all of the aspects of this case, but it is on the internet.   I do not think the court's opinion was wrong.  

Also Zimmerman was also part of the neighborhood watch,  IIRC.

IIRC,  Zimmerman's defense was not based on "Stand your Ground".    Martin was on top of Zimmerman bashing his head against the concrete.   If Martin would have killed Zimmerman, Martin would have been charged and probably found guilty of murder.  No tricks of the law, a simple self defense situation.


----------



## DA SWO (May 11, 2015)

reed11b said:


> For being shot at?
> Reed


For having his head beat into the concrete.


----------



## nobodythank you (May 11, 2015)

The court made their decision based on the evidence provided by the state. The state made the error as this was not a clear cut case of defense if taken beyond the context of the physical encounter (which the state tried to do). He created the exigent circumstances that required deadly force. That is the issue that the state chose to ignore and instead (just like the Casey Anthony case) go for the easy sexy charge that could not be proven. Being part of the neighborhood watch is irrelevant as it confers no authority to him. Again, I never questioned the justification for using deadly force, I questioned the events leading up to it where he created the circumstances necessary for it.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (May 11, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Meanwhile, in Florida...AKA "not far from where my mail goes"...
> 
> 
> Not 2 minutes from where I live:
> ...




Lucky you:-".


----------



## Marine0311 (May 11, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> For living in Florida.



...for having shitty marksmanship and no BJJ ground skills.


----------



## Centermass (May 11, 2015)

ke4gde said:


> The court made their decision based on the evidence provided by the state. The state made the error as this was not a clear cut case of defense if taken beyond the context of the physical encounter (which the state tried to do). *He created the exigent circumstances that required deadly force.* That is the issue that the state chose to ignore and instead (just like the Casey Anthony case) go for the easy sexy charge that could not be proven. Being part of the neighborhood watch is irrelevant as it confers no authority to him. Again, I never questioned the justification for using deadly force, I questioned the events leading up to it where he created the circumstances necessary for it.



I'm going to play Devils Advocate here and run this one up the flag pole. 

Why was Zimmerman even there in the first place? 

While there is NO concrete evidence Martin avoided Zimmerman and tried to go straight home, there is no concrete evidence Zimmerman "Created" the exigent circumstances. Go back and examine the FACT that Martin "KNEW" Zimmerman was watching him. How do we know know this? From Martin's own GF at the time who testified that Martin called Zimmerman a "Creepy Ass Cracker" 

You have accusations of Zimmerman blowing off the instructions of the 911 dispatcher and actively pursuing Martin. And that's exactly that. ACCUSATIONS. No one, not you, me or the rest of the world, knows what happened. 

And according to Zimmerman's testimony, which squares where the confrontation occurred and the struggle ensued and went down, it was back at the location of Zimmerman's truck. 

You got a guy, who was already on suspension from school, didn't like the fact he was being "Eyeballed" and exhibited all the traits of being a Baby Gangster wannabe, was well on his way, now sizing up a smaller guy, he didn't like, that was watching him. Amplify that with an attitude, and what do you think is going to happen? He's going to make a point of letting him know exactly what Zimmerman represents and confront him. 

Could Zimmerman have retreated? Possibly. Did Martin force the issue not knowing Zimmerman was armed? More than likely, based on the wounds Zimmerman received. Could Zimmerman's thought process have turned to the very same, we as officers, think about, anytime we go hands on with someone and it then, goes to the ground, with regards to our weapon, its retention and we're getting our ass kicked?

I will say this - if I honestly thought Zimmerman had it out for Martin, actively pursued him, shot him in the back or was a racist, I would say he should have paid for Martin's death with his life. 

This is and was, just another example, of everyone from the media, to the DOJ, all the way up to the White House, that had everybody and their mothers brother, rushing to judgment, jumping to conclusions and grabbing at straws with accusations of racism, innuendo, hearsay, repeating fiction time and time again, and exacerbated to the point of the absurd. 

Just some food for thought.


----------



## nobodythank you (May 11, 2015)

Centermass said:


> I'm going to play Devils Advocate here and run this one up the flag pole.
> 
> Why was Zimmerman even there in the first place?
> 
> While there is NO concrete evidence Martin avoided Zimmerman and tried to go straight home, there is no concrete evidence Zimmerman "Created" the exigent circumstances. Go back and examine the FACT that Martin "KNEW" Zimmerman was watching him. How do we know know this? From Martin's own GF at the time who testified that Martin called Zimmerman a "Creepy Ass Cracker"


 It is correct that we have no evidence to support Martin avoiding Zimmerman. However, Martin knew Zimmerman was watching him after he got out of the car and followed him. Zimmerman only headed back for the car after he lost sight of Martin behind the row of houses. Zimmerman created the circumstances by getting out of his car to follow Martin. Had he not exited the car then there would have been no circumstances.


> You have accusations of Zimmerman blowing off the instructions of the 911 dispatcher and actively pursuing Martin. And that's exactly that. ACCUSATIONS. No one, not you, me or the rest of the world, knows what happened.


 Not exactly, we know from the 911 tapes that he ignored the dispatchers instructions to not follow Martin. However, in either case this accusation is pointless as the dispatcher has no authority to give orders or to be followed. So it is immaterial to what occurred.


> And according to Zimmerman's testimony, which squares where the confrontation occurred and the struggle ensued and went down, it was back at the location of Zimmerman's truck.


 Negative, the shooting and struggle occurred well away from his vehicle. This map and several others illustrate that Zimmerman had to follow Martin behind several houses where Zimmerman had no business being. Assuming Martin was actually heading home then he would have had a reason for being there. Was it illegal for Zimmerman to be there or follow Martin? Of course not, but just as we all know just because you can do something doesn't mean you should.


> You got a guy, who was already on suspension from school, didn't like the fact he was being "Eyeballed" and exhibited all the traits of being a Baby Gangster wannabe, was well on his way, now sizing up a smaller guy, he didn't like, that was watching him. Amplify that with an attitude, and what do you think is going to happen? He's going to make a point of letting him know exactly what Zimmerman represents and confront him.


You are probably right on this. In fact, I would say this is the most likely scenario as to what probably played out. He thought he was gonna be a tough guy and paid the price. Just to be clear, I am not justifying Martin's actions. I am pointing out that as the law abiding citizen, it was his responsibility to act responsibly and he didn't. Zimmerman took matters into his own hands and must now pay the consequences of his actions. Not consequences of the law as he was acquitted, but of what he created by getting out of that car in the first place.


> Could Zimmerman have retreated? Possibly. Did Martin force the issue not knowing Zimmerman was armed? More than likely, based on the wounds Zimmerman received. Could Zimmerman's thought process have turned to the very same, *we as officers, think about, anytime we go hands on with someone* and it then, goes to the ground, with regards to our weapon, its retention and we're getting our ass kicked?


 If Zimmerman were an officer then I would completely agree with you. However, he was not an officer and had zero authority for putting hands on anyone (not that I am implying he initiated the physical confrontation). I will go further as to theorize that in all likelihood Zimmerman thought that since he was carrying a gun he could handle anything Martin could throw at him. You've got a guy who has failed at getting hired by an agency, has his concealed permit (within his rights to have of course), and was the Captain of his neighborhood watch.


> I will say this - if I honestly thought Zimmerman had it out for Martin, actively pursued him, shot him in the back or was a racist, I would say he should have paid for Martin's death with his life.


 I am not saying that Zimmerman should have paid with his life or that there was any racial motivation involved. I think he got a case of hubris like we have all seen citizens get when they think the police aren't doing enough. How many times have you gotten the tough talk of "if ya'll don't take care of this I'ma gonna have to handle this mahself" line of talk? Even if the state wanted to go after him for creating the exigent circumstance, there are no specific laws on the books in Florida that reference that scenario. Having said that, if the scenario had been different, say Martin attacked Zimmerman while he was in his car trying to talk to 911, then it would be a completely different story with likely the same end result.


> This is and was, just another example, of everyone from the media, to the DOJ, all the way up to the White House, that had everybody and their mothers brother, rushing to judgment, jumping to conclusions and grabbing at straws with accusations of racism, innuendo, hearsay, repeating fiction time and time again, and exacerbated to the point of the absurd.
> 
> Just some food for thought.


 Agreed. We are seeing history repeat itself on that score many times over. Now, in this case we have had a trial with evidence present so we can get a sharper image of what happened. Thanks for the devils advocate though. It is good to keep the mind sharp.


----------



## HOLLiS (May 11, 2015)

IMHO,  what we see is how the media convoluted this incident.     Which is something that is, sadly, the norm.


----------



## Centermass (May 12, 2015)

Centermass said:


> Could Zimmerman's thought process have turned to the very same, we as officers, think about, anytime we go hands on with someone and it then, goes to the ground, with regards to our weapon, its retention and we're getting our ass kicked?





ke4gde said:


> If Zimmerman were an officer then I would completely agree with you. However, he was not an officer and had zero authority for putting hands on anyone (not that I am implying he initiated the physical confrontation).



Since when, does Law Enforcement, have an exclusive right to this mindset? They don't. And for you to say in the same sentence even though "He was not an officer and had zero authority for putting hands on anyone (not that I am implying he initiated the physical confrontation)" yeah, you just did. That's pretty much the same as if you had stated he had to have an officer's authority in order to defend himself.


----------



## nobodythank you (May 12, 2015)

Centermass said:


> Since when, does Law Enforcement, have an exclusive right to this mindset? They don't. And for you to say in the same sentence even though "He was not an officer and had zero authority for putting hands on anyone (not that I am implying he initiated the physical confrontation)" yeah, you just did. That's pretty much the same as if you had stated he had to have an officer's authority in order to defend himself.


That is not what I said. You stated "*we as officers, think about, anytime we go hands on with someone*" the way you wrote it implies that Zimmerman has the same thought processes as an officer when touching someone. He does not. Part of an officer's authority for going hands on is his authority conferred onto him by law to go hands on. Zimmerman has no such authority so it cannot legitimately be in his thought process unless he intended to put his hands on someone. He can have the same mindset for self defense surely. He does not need to be an officer to defend himself, however, he damn well better be one if he is going to follow someone, at night, behind several houses, after having gotten off the phone with 911 having made the statements that he did (ie.. they always get away).

In addition, I did not imply he initiated the confrontation as my disclaimer stated. That statement was to reinforce what I wrote previous. However, he initiated the series of events that lead to the physical confrontation. Let me restate, he got out of his car and followed Martin before he lost him and turned back. This is not a clear cut case of self defense as compared to other self defense cases involving officers or citizens. Until the point Martin ambushed Zimmerman, Martin had not technically done anything wrong or made poor choices with regards to this encounter. However, poor choices were abundant by Zimmerman until the ambush, at which point the story flipped and now Zimmerman was in a situation of having to defend himself.


----------



## Rapid (May 12, 2015)

*"Why are some celebrating Zimmerman shooting?"*

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-32707068


...ridiculous.


----------



## pardus (May 12, 2015)

Rapid said:


> *"Why are some celebrating Zimmerman shooting?"*
> 
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-trending-32707068
> 
> ...



Because they are ignorant, lowlife scum.


----------



## pardus (May 13, 2015)

*Man Says He Shot at George Zimmerman In Self-Defense*

Smart and predictable defense. With a witness to back it up and a personal feud going on. I wonder if the shooter was black?

ETA: Nope.

Apparently the shooter called 911 on a previous occasion when Zimmerman allegedly threatened him.

http://heavy.com/news/2015/05/matthew-apperson-george-zimmerman-shooting-suspect/


----------



## racing_kitty (May 13, 2015)

I need to find the link, but the current shooter's neighbors say he's a fucking nutter, too. Sounds to me like he won't rest until Zimmerman is dead.


----------



## pardus (May 13, 2015)

racing_kitty said:


> I need to find the link, but the current shooter's neighbors say he's a fucking nutter, too. Sounds to me like he won't rest until Zimmerman is dead.



Would not surprise me in the slightest.


----------



## DA SWO (May 13, 2015)

pardus said:


> *Man Says He Shot at George Zimmerman In Self-Defense*
> 
> Smart and predictable defense. With a witness to back it up and a personal feud going on. I wonder if the shooter was black?
> 
> ...


Local station here said he was behind Zimmerman doing the "Road Rage" thing then he shot into the vehicle (Zimmerman was not shot, but cut by flying glass per our local info babe).

If true then the neighbor gets to visit a local detention facility for a bit.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (May 13, 2015)

I am surprised that Zimmerman did not return fire. Zimmerman had plenty of cause to return fire in defense of his life. I wonder what stopped him?


----------



## pardus (May 13, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I am surprised that Zimmerman did not return fire. Zimmerman had plenty of cause to return fire in defense of his life. I wonder what stopped him?



Probably terrified of going through another court case again.
I'd say this is the smartest decision he's made in a long time.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (May 13, 2015)

pardus said:


> Probably terrified of going through another court case again.
> I'd say this is the smartest decision he's made in a long time.



It was the smart move to not return fire. If he had, there would have been lead flying until one was dead, or unable to fire. Still, the lad seems to be a magnet for press and LEO encounters, and the cycle just keeps going.


----------



## DA SWO (May 13, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> It was the smart move to not return fire. If he had, there would have been lead flying until one was dead, or unable to fire. Still, the lad seems to be a magnet for press and LEO encounters, and the cycle just keeps going.


Will never stop because anything he does will generate news coverage.


----------



## AWP (May 13, 2015)

Z's reputation around town is for being a hothead (shocking). If he didn't return fire my first inclination is to think some circumstances intervened rather than him making the right decision. Time will tell though.


----------



## AWP (May 16, 2015)

Looks like Zimmerman won't be charged, but the other guy has issues.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/15/us/george-zimmerman-truck-shot/index.html
_(CNN)_A man accused of firing a gun into George Zimmerman's truck earlier this week has been arrested, police in Lake Mary, Florida, said Friday.


----------



## pardus (May 16, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Looks like Zimmerman won't be charged, but the other guy has issues.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/15/us/george-zimmerman-truck-shot/index.html
> _(CNN)_A man accused of firing a gun into George Zimmerman's truck earlier this week has been arrested, police in Lake Mary, Florida, said Friday.



Burn the shooter.


----------



## AWP (May 29, 2015)

To put Zimmerman into perspective, the Orlando Sentinel has a "George Zimmerman" news section to go with Sports, Weather, Breaking News...

Anyway, this gem posted today:

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news...hew-apperson-bond-hearing-20150529-story.html



> SANFORD — The man accused of shooting at George Zimmerman will use a "stand your ground" defense in an attempt to clear himself, his lawyer said Friday..
> 
> "That's a good look into the future," said Michael Lafay moments after a bond hearing for his client, Matthew Apperson, a 36-year-old Winter Springs man accused of firing into Zimmerman's pickup May 11 as they traveled in separate vehicles down West Lake Mary Boulevard.
> 
> ...



I won't apologize, the bold text has me laughing. Nicely done, Mr. Lafay.


----------



## pardus (May 29, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> To put Zimmerman into perspective, the Orlando Sentinel has a "George Zimmerman" news section to go with Sports, Weather, Breaking News...
> 
> Anyway, this gem posted today:
> 
> ...




I love to laugh at stuff like this, because it is so ridiculous, but then I realize that people, people with power, will go along with this train of thought, and back it with legal authority. That is when I thank the Spaghetti Monster for his gift of alcohol, and I float away in a haze of alcoholic bliss...


----------



## Florida173 (May 30, 2015)

Funny, but I was in the understanding that Stand Your Ground had nothing to do with Zimmerman's defense.


----------



## Marine0311 (May 30, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> Funny, but I was in the understanding that Stand Your Ground had nothing to do with Zimmerman's defense.



Didn't he claim that from the start?


----------



## nobodythank you (May 30, 2015)

Marine0311 said:


> Didn't he claim that from the start?


IIRC the initial encounter was handled by the local PD as a stand your ground scenario, further review after the fact by the State Attorney's Office caused charges to be filed. However, the defense did not invoke stand your ground as a defense. Z may have initially stated that when being interviewed by police, but his defense team did not carry it through into the case.


----------



## HOLLiS (May 30, 2015)

ke4gde said:


> IIRC the initial encounter was handled by the local PD as a stand your ground scenario, further review after the fact by the State Attorney's Office caused charges to be filed. However, the defense did not invoke stand your ground as a defense. Z may have initially stated that when being interviewed by police, but his defense team did not carry it through into the case.




IIRC,  The elements of the case where what the defense attys went by.   Z was on the ground getting his head bashed in when he used lethal force.   IIRC Stand Your Ground would not apply.    Z was not in a position of retreating from a threat or avoiding contact by the use of force.  I believe it, SYG,  is used before physical contact is made.  

SYG adds a layer of protection to the victims in a self defense situation.   I am pretty sure no state laws requires a person to retreat, it does keep a over zealous DA from going after a person who defended themselves,  much like Castle Doctrine, removes the element of maybe having to prove that a person was fearful for their lives on a home intrusion situation.


----------



## nobodythank you (May 30, 2015)

HOLLiS said:


> IIRC,  The elements of the case where what the defense attys went by.   Z was on the ground getting his head bashed in when he used lethal force.   IIRC Stand Your Ground would not apply.    Z was not in a position of retreating from a threat or avoiding contact by the use of force.  I believe it, SYG,  is used before physical contact is made.
> 
> SYG adds a layer of protection to the victims in a self defense situation.   I am pretty sure no state laws requires a person to retreat, it does keep a over zealous DA from going after a person who defended themselves,  much like Castle Doctrine, removes the element of maybe having to prove that a person was fearful for their lives on a home intrusion situation.


Yes and No. Prior to SYG, Florida did require a person to retreat if at all possible. The standard for SYG is not contact in and of itself. SYG applies only for the use of deadly force, and that force is only legal when you feel in imminent danger of death or great bodily harm to yourself or others. Simple physical contact, such as a simple fist fight between two people evenly matched would not justify deadly force. Or if someone were slapping you, but not providing the possibility of death or great bodily harm would also not justify deadly force. SYG effectively makes where ever you are a castle doctrine area. However, even in your home under castle doctrine you are required to articulate that you were in fear of your life. Castle doctrine does not remove or alter the standard for the use of deadly force. Luckily, the courts have interpreted that almost any incursion into your home is the potential for harm and the response of deadly force is justified in most cases.

In the case of Z, his justification came in the form of being mounted and having his head bashed into the ground, and not from just shoving each other.


----------



## HOLLiS (May 30, 2015)

^^^, I was keeping it simple.   Even terms like simply physical contact become hazy.  Obviously a pushing match is not justification for the use of lethal force or is it?   What we don't know at the beginning is how altercation will end.   As soon a physical contact is made, it opens a whole world of possibilities as to how it will end.   One state that I worked in (LEO) mutual combat was not against the law.   That was changed because those events can end seriously wrong.   

When elements are added to defining the act of self defense such as, "fearful of harm", a DA can charge the victim if they feel that the victim was not in any harm.   Self defense laws here,  do not require a retreat but other elements must be present.  IIRC, from what I read on Castle Doctrine is that those elements that justify self defense from the states POV need not be proven or makes it difficult for a DA to go after the victim.   The assumptions is that if a a person is in your home, is reason enough to use lethal force.    

The DA could feel that another law(s) have been violated if the investigation shows that.   None of this gives a blank check to kill someone and then claim SD.   My understanding the reason for SYG and CD is to protect the lawful citizen from a over zealous DA.  From my understanding of the TM/GZ case, it should have never gone to court.   I think it was more a political reason to go to court than based on the facts of the case.    I maybe just hind sighting that issue.


----------



## nobodythank you (May 30, 2015)

Gotcha, though in this case I was trying to be specific with regards to Florida law, which I am familiar with. Hence the specific nature of the post. You are probably right as to the intention of the law and the courts interpretation. Although whether or not the TM/GZ case should have gone to court is another matter that is sticky at best when trying to hash out. In general, I think there was enough to arrest (sufficient probable cause) GZ based on the manner in which the SAO presented their evidence, but not enough to secure a conviction (proof beyond a reasonable doubt).

Which in itself can be fucked up depending on how you look at it. As in "you have enough to believe I probably did it and take away my rights temporarily" but "you don't have enough to prove beyond doubt that I did do it and lock me up". If you really look at it, it is very scary the legal threshold needed to actually arrest you. Although the argument could be made that this is offset by the legal threshold needed to convict you. Both will ruin your livelihood no matter the outcome. In any event, that is a philosophical discussion for another thread and time lol.


----------



## HOLLiS (May 30, 2015)

Agree, does not take much to arrest someone.  Going to court is another issue as you pointed out. 

Zimmerman is a great example, "will ruin your livelihood no matter the outcome".      Who knows it maybe have gone easier on him, if he was found guilty.  There has been other cases that were trial by the media where a innocent person's life was completely ruined.


----------



## BloodStripe (May 12, 2016)

George Zimmerman's PF-9 used on 2/26/12 : Other Collectible Guns at GunBroker.com

This is fucking stupid.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (May 12, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> George Zimmerman's PF-9 used on 2/26/12 : Other Collectible Guns at GunBroker.com
> 
> This is fucking stupid.



I could not agree more. I think he likes seeing his name in the paper, and on broadcast media. He does not have even a clue, how many people see him wearing clown shoes. I wonder if he has a job anymore? I have a sense that employers, and the general public want to stay well clear of him.


----------



## Frank S. (May 12, 2016)

A modern Bob Ford of sorts...


----------



## Rapid (May 12, 2016)

He's turned himself into an absolute joke, but on the plus side, he's causing a lot of butthurt for libs and rabid BLM supporters. Always a silver lining.


----------



## AWP (Aug 5, 2016)

George Z is the gift that keeps on giving. I won't even post the text because there are 3-4 versions of what happened. Short version: George Zimmerman happened.

Records: George Zimmerman punched after 'bragging' about Trayvon Martin case


----------



## Florida173 (Aug 5, 2016)

The guy's a shit magnet, doesn't necessarily mean he's always in the wrong though. I'm sure other people instigate it more often than not.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 5, 2016)

I think at some point in the future he's gonna get capped. It's his destiny.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 5, 2016)

@Florida173 , disagree because the man cannot stop calling attention to himself:

Zimmerman said he was ordering food at Gators Riverside Grille Sunday evening when he walked by a table with several people and *complimented a man’s Confederate flag tattoos,* according to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office.

The man, Joseph Whitmer, thanked him and asked, “aren’t you that guy?” *Zimmerman said yes and pulled out his ID to prove who he was,* a report shows.


----------



## Florida173 (Aug 5, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @Florida173 , disagree because the man cannot stop calling attention to himself:
> 
> Zimmerman said he was ordering food at Gators Riverside Grille Sunday evening when he walked by a table with several people and *complimented a man’s Confederate flag tattoos,* according to the Seminole County Sheriff’s Office.
> 
> The man, Joseph Whitmer, thanked him and asked, “aren’t you that guy?” *Zimmerman said yes and pulled out his ID to prove who he was,* a report shows.



Yep. Shit magnet


----------



## AWP (Aug 5, 2016)

Everyone's missing the big story here:

Someone had a confrontation with GZ and survived.


----------



## Salt USMC (Aug 5, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Everyone's missing the big story here:
> 
> Someone had a confrontation with GZ and survived.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Aug 5, 2016)

If ever I would call someone a "Jonah"....... All encounters just seem cursed.


----------



## AWP (Nov 10, 2016)

With the election over, let's make George Zimmerman great again.

Deputy: George Zimmerman used racial slur, insisted that black man 'hit' him



> Seminole County deputy ordered George Zimmerman to leave a bar near Sanford Wednesday night after he accused a black customer of hitting him, then became belligerent and used a racial slur, according to an incident report.
> 
> No one was injured and no one was arrested, the report states.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Nov 10, 2016)

[Q


----------



## AWP (Nov 10, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> He will not go quietly into that night. GZ lives to dance with the legal system, and LEO in particular. It has become his way of validating his self defined importance. There is a day coming:youllpay: when he will get the everliving crap just pounded out of him. In the end, he may be found in the right, but his days in the ICU:blkeye: will be a nightmare. Keep it up GZ, the US needs a good laugh every now and then.



To paraphrase Point Break, I think at some point he's going to "pick a gun fight with somebody better."


----------



## Brill (Nov 11, 2016)

He's going to end up on the back of a milk carton. No noise, no commotion, just vanished and slipped into a gator pond somewhere.


----------



## AWP (Nov 11, 2016)

lindy said:


> He's going to end up on the back of a milk carton. No noise, no commotion, just vanished and slipped into a gator pond somewhere.



Tell him to go swimming at Disney.

(Too soon?)


----------



## BloodStripe (May 7, 2017)

Florida university to award degree to Trayvon Martin

Thank you for the laugh, Florida Memorial.


----------



## AWP (May 7, 2017)

If I had a son, he'd look like Trayvon.

Buzz Aldrin


----------



## Red Flag 1 (May 7, 2017)

[Q


----------



## Gunz (May 7, 2017)

A mind is a terrible thing to waste.

Even if it's dead.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 7, 2017)

Electives:

Intro to culinary arts= A (skittles)

Intro to land survey= A+ (good neighborhood)

Self Defense 101= C- (brought a bag of skittles to a gun fight)


----------

