# 60 Minutes Segment On F-22s This Sunday



## CDG (May 4, 2012)

I just saw this. MAJ Gordon is the owner of the gym I train at. I don't know anything about him professionally other than that he's a pilot, but on a personal level he's a great guy. Just based on my interaction with him I have to believe there is a lot of validity to his concerns if he is willing to put himself out there like this. Has anyone else heard anything about the issues with the F-22?

http://articles.dailypress.com/2012...es-20120503_1_raptor-pilots-mike-hostage-f-22


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## AWP (May 4, 2012)

That O2 system has plagued the -22 for some time now. That and its inability to share data with other a/c without an intermediary? LM and the AF dropped the ball on this.


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## CDG (May 4, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> That O2 system has plagued the -22 for some time now. That and its inability to share data with other a/c without an intermediary? LM and the AF dropped the ball on this.


 
That being said, what's your feeling on what these two pilots are doing?  Do you think this is a career/promotion killer?  I understand other pilots have refused to fly the -22, but with using a  show like 60 Minutes to point out the flaws  of the system I wonder how the AF brass are going to take it.


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## AWP (May 4, 2012)

CDG said:


> That being said, what's your feeling on what these two pilots are doing? Do you think this is a career/promotion killer? I understand other pilots have refused to fly the -22, but with using a show like 60 Minutes to point out the flaws of the system I wonder how the AF brass are going to take it.


 
I think they are doing the right thing though it will probably kill their careers; as you know, the military doesn't take kindly to anyone who colors outside of the lines.

Here's the thing: every one of us who ever wore a uniform had a class or two, probably at the beginning of our uniformed time, about disobeying lawful orders. When it was right and when it was wrong. Most of us have heard some variation of "Safety is everyone's responsibility." or "Everyone is a safety officer." These officers have the balls to live up to those thoughts and they will probably pay for it.

In the past our government has covered up or obsfuscated data from other platforms like the initial trials of the Bradley and the F-16 crash in Korea (those two come to mind, I'm sure there are others). Each F-22 is running about $412 million a copy with another $12 billion in projected upgrades...and does anyone think it will stop at $12 billion?

The military constantly preaches about doing the right thing and these men are doing what they believe to be right. If 60 Minutes is the wrong venue for this then how many funerals would it take to become the correct venue to come out about the -22?

We've already spent about $65 billion on the a/c. We NEED this fighter and the good news is that we're years ahead of other nations like China and Russia, but we're also rushing planes into service and calling them "combat ready" years before they truly are combat ready. Altitude restrictions, it can't fire the AIM-9X, no common data link...if the Raptor were used in Afghanistan it would require us to change the rules of the game.

So, it is good that we have the airplane, but the development of the aircraft was horrible. I think the pilots are commiting career suicide, but I'm glad they are. Maybe someone will wake up and realize how poorly we've spent 65 billion dollars, and if you think this is bad wait for the F-35.


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## DA SWO (May 4, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> That O2 system has plagued the -22 for some time now. That and its inability to share data with other a/c without an intermediary? LM and the AF dropped the ball on this.


Slightly disagree. Does a  Data Link transmission  leave an electronic trail to the emitter?  If so, putting the F-22 into the receive only mode would give it an additional layer of protection.

The F-22 is a silver bullet 1st entry platform.  You'll get a few days use before someone (Iran?) can figure out what happens.

Funny how everyone bitches that the plane isn't in a-stain, but is ignoring the deployments (including the current one).

Finally, FWIW-I bet the Major has already been passed over.


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## AWP (May 4, 2012)

SOWT said:


> Slightly disagree. Does a Data Link transmission leave an electronic trail to the emitter? If so, putting the F-22 into the receive only mode would give it an additional layer of protection.
> 
> The F-22 is a silver bullet 1st entry platform. You'll get a few days use before someone (Iran?) can figure out what happens.
> 
> ...


 
I'm aware that it is currently deployed, but sending it to Dhafra isn't the same as it being combat ready. If an a/c leaves home station it is "deployed" but that doesn't mean it is doing or capable of doing anything. 

I understand this is new technology, but I still maintain the program was horribly managed by all parties involved. The pricetag alone guaranteed that, but to hear the AF sing and praise the -22 one would think it was meeting some expectations. It isn't bringing much to the table for an aircraft that is supposed to be ready for combat.

ETA: I had to dig about Link 16, but the Raptor can receive it. A) I need to do better research and B) The BACN guys in A-stan need to learn more about their product.


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## DA SWO (May 5, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> I'm aware that it is currently deployed, but sending it to Dhafra isn't the same as it being combat ready. If an a/c leaves home station it is "deployed" but that doesn't mean it is doing or capable of doing anything.
> 
> I understand this is new technology, but I still maintain the program was horribly managed by all parties involved. The pricetag alone guaranteed that, but to hear the AF sing and praise the -22 one would think it was meeting some expectations. It isn't bringing much to the table for an aircraft that is supposed to be ready for combat.
> 
> ETA: I had to dig about Link 16, but the Raptor can receive it. A) I need to do better research and B) The BACN guys in A-stan need to learn more about their product.


I am willing to be the guys Al Dhafra could fly over Iran tomorrow if need be, that (to me) seems like a combat ready airframe.


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## DA SWO (May 5, 2012)

From a few years back.


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## Brill (May 5, 2012)

^^^

Could have been a few DAYS/WEEKS ago!


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## Scotth (May 6, 2012)

If the plane has a lower flight ceiling because of safety concerns the airframe has issue.  Hopefully they will get fixed eventually but the plane even with the limited ceiling can probably still win any air-to-air battle against any other country in the world.


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## CDG (May 6, 2012)

Just finished watching the segment.  The oxygen issue is something that the AF has no clue about.  They don't know what's causing it, but they put the plane back in the air after grounding it for a year.  They tried adding pulse oximeters and charcoal filters, but the filters ended up leaching charcoal into the masks and the pilots were breathing the dust in.  So the filters were removed.  So it appears the AF acknowledged there was a problem, grounded the plane to investigate, didn't find anything, and decided to put the plane back in the air anyways.  According to AF data, 18% of the F-22 pilots have reported physiological symptoms during, or after, flying the plane.  The plane itself may be near invincible, but that means nothing if the pilots can't safely fly it in combat.


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## Ranger Psych (May 6, 2012)

Is there a specific reason that existing, known good, oxygen systems can't be incorporated into new aircraft? I mean, it doesn't seem like it'd be that huge a deal to build a test bed for an O2 system, toss it on a centrifuge with a motor so it'd swap around which way it's getting G's from, then take that same test bed and toss it in an unpressurized aircraft at altitude and test it's ability to provide oxygen as designed...

maybe it's just me, but if it's life safety related you'd think there would be some serious testing that goes into the systems...


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## SpitfireV (May 7, 2012)

They couldn't charge a 100000000% markup on the cost price if they used an existing system.


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## DA SWO (May 7, 2012)

CDG said:


> Just finished watching the segment. The oxygen issue is something that the AF has no clue about. They don't know what's causing it, but they put the plane back in the air after grounding it for a year. They tried adding pulse oximeters and charcoal filters, but the filters ended up leaching charcoal into the masks and the pilots were breathing the dust in. So the filters were removed. So it appears the AF acknowledged there was a problem, grounded the plane to investigate, didn't find anything, and decided to put the plane back in the air anyways. According to AF data, 18% of the F-22 pilots have reported physiological symptoms during, or after, flying the plane. The plane itself may be near invincible, but that means nothing if the pilots can't safely fly it in combat.


It may be an issue with the pilots too, we just don't know.
FWIW-The F16 came in during the early 70's and they didn't get the modified G-suit delivered until the late 80's (88?). This is actually more common then people think.


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## pardus (May 7, 2012)

CDG said:


> According to AF data, 18% of the F-22 pilots have reported physiological symptoms during, or after, flying the plane.


 
Thats huge. I cant see how they can ignore that. 



CDG said:


> plane itself may be near invincible, but that means nothing if the pilots can't safely fly it in combat.


 
One more reason to develop a pilotless fighter I guess. Just a matter of time.


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## DA SWO (May 8, 2012)

Just saw an article that said both guys were VA ANG, no problem for them as they are probably flyig a desk now.  Hope they are happy regardless of outcome.


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## DA SWO (May 10, 2012)

SOWT said:


> Just saw an article that said both guys were VA ANG, no problem for them as they are probably flyig a desk now. Hope they are happy regardless of outcome.


The two "whistle blowers" have asked to be put back into the cockpit.

D-bags.


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## AWP (May 10, 2012)

SOWT said:


> The two "whistle blowers" have asked to be put back into the cockpit.
> 
> D-bags.


 
In that case: fuck those guys.


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## CDG (May 10, 2012)

SOWT said:


> The two "whistle blowers" have asked to be put back into the cockpit.


 
Yeah..... When I heard about this, it was definitely a "WTF?" moment.


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