# MarSOC: The Effect On The Rifle Squad



## yarles87 (May 5, 2011)

http://www.mca-marines.org/gazette/article/marsoc-effect-rifle-squad

I found this article interesting, and seems to echo the Marine Corps argument against joining SOCOM prior to SecDef Rumsfield's order to stand up MarSOC. Any thoughts?

(I searched to make sure this wasn't a repost, apologies if it has been posted/discussed already)


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## dknob (May 5, 2011)

The Marine author sounds like a great team player.


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## pardus (May 5, 2011)

dknob said:


> The Marine author sounds like a great team player.



You're kinder than I am.

Though to give him credit it must take some skill to type while your head is up your own ass.


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## dknob (May 5, 2011)

I have my nice streaks.


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## Mac_NZ (May 5, 2011)

Slim was a dick that got his knickers in a twist because Wavell broke up one of his precious divisions for the Chindits. Quoting him doesn't add much to the argument.

I can see some of the authors points but I detect an undertone of butthurtedness about something, possibly personal.


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## Marauder06 (May 5, 2011)

IIRC, there was enormous resistance within the Marine brass for the establishment of MARSOC.  I only skimmed the article but it reminded me of some of the historical arguments against standing up SF and making it its own branch.


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## TJT0321 (May 5, 2011)

I don't know who this guy thinks he's kidding imagining that these guys would stick around the grunts after 4 years. Being treated like a 5 year old can only be tolerated for so long.

The Marine Corps Infantry does a lot of things very well, but advocating career retention and job satisfaction are not on the list. Recon may not be as awesome as it sounded in the recruiting video, but it's a hell of a step up from the grunts in a lot of respects, and MARSOC is just another place for the most talented Marines to go and hone their skills. A lot of whom would have just gotten out after 4 years and joined SF anyway.


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## Cochise (May 6, 2011)

I agree with all the previouis comments.  The Marine Corps is notorious for its infantry missions of the past and has built an impressive history from the earliest days of the Battle for Tripoli to more current environments including Fallujah and Marjah (though SOF also played a large role in both of those environments, also).  I believe the largest issue with retention in the infantry is a lack of responsibility passed down to those junior enlisted ranks and junior NCOs.  Marines whom wish to learn and possibly move into SOF elements wish to make more decisions and have more responsibility thrust upon them in order to establish they're ability to think under fire.  I believe a larger emphasis on decision making and the passing on of responsibility from SNCOs and Officers to the junior ranks may encourage younger Marines to remain in the "Big Marine Corps".  Thanks to all the gentlemen who have commented already on this important issue.


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## Mac_NZ (May 6, 2011)

Is the ISLC mandatory to command a squad in Corps or is there a fair bit of OTJT?

They way he worded some of it made it sound like young blokes were getting thrown squads without being prepared for it by the system. I know a lot of guys from here that have been put in that situation, some came through and some crashed and burned when they might have pulled it off given a bit of help.

Saying that I had 4 guys fail on my section commanders course, showing up back at the unit with "disgrace to the Infantry" and "never to command troops in training or operations" written on your report tends to kill your career pretty quickly.


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## Teufel (May 7, 2011)

You don't have to be an ISLC graduate to command a squad.  The primary means of learning how to be a squad leader is OJT.  We try to get guys to their PME but it can be hard with the war going on.


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## Mac_NZ (May 7, 2011)

Interesting, are you finding that the ISLC trained commanders are performing better?
Also what is the normal task org for tasks with the current op tempo, Squad or Platoon?


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## Cochise (May 7, 2011)

The organization, granted this is from my experience when I was still with the grunts in '07, is all about the man power of the Platoons in question.  Unfortunately for some experienced Marines, if there Wpns section, for example, is full up on experienced Cpls or Sgts they are unable to really show potential because of the pecking order or seniority.  On the other hand, if a platoon is undermanned by Senior NCOs, sometimes unexperienced junior enlisted LCpls are tasked with a big responsibility of leading a rifle squad.  Sometimes they're ready and sometimes they're not.  The importance of this situation is it give the lower ranking Marine an opportunity to really excel and THAT is the only way to really improve your structure and ensure retention in the "Big Infantry".  Let me know if you agree or disagree.  Thanks.


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## AWP (May 7, 2011)

Cochise said:


> sometimes unexperienced junior enlisted LCpls are tasked with a big responsibility of leading a rifle squad.



What rank would normally lead a Marine rifle squad?


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## Mac_NZ (May 7, 2011)

I think its all about developing the leadership potential of senior Ptes and LCpls.  The problem I sometimes see is they get set up for failure, you don't give a bloke a car with no tool box and say change the spark plugs.

The problem with OJT in my experience is the motivation of the Pl Comd and Sgt varies greatly to develop their troops.  I've had some LTs that used to allocate tasks from "What now Lieutenant" and give us 15mins to come up with a mission analysis, then I've had others that used to log onto their computer and then piss off for the rest of the day to swan around the O's quarters.


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## Cochise (May 7, 2011)

Freefalling...Generally it is expected to be a Sgt as a rifle squad leader.  Commonly, however, Cpls are squad leaders while a platoon Sgt is either a SSgt or Sgt, depending on manpower.


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## AWP (May 7, 2011)

A GySgt isn't the platoon sergeant?


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## Teufel (May 7, 2011)

Freefalling said:


> A GySgt isn't the platoon sergeant?



No, platoon sergeant is a SSgt billet.  You usually have one GySgt per company, the Company Gunnery Sergeant.  Sometimes you will have a GySgt in the weapons platoon.  Squad leader is a sgt billet that is usally filled by a Cpl.


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## AWP (May 7, 2011)

Teufel said:


> No, platoon sergeant is a SSgt billet. You usually have one GySgt per company, the Company Gunnery Sergeant. Sometimes you will have a GySgt in the weapons platoon. Squad leader is a sgt billet that is usally filled by a Cpl.


 
Thank you for the explanation. Not being a Marine and the Army being a little different, I was trying to put the pieces together.


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## Hitman2/3 (May 8, 2011)

I have to agree that this guy has his head way up his ass. I always find it funny how the people who have not walked in both worlds have so much to say about the world they know nothing about. From his article I can say that he has zero experience in Recon and obviously negative experience in MARSOC. I can understand his argument, meaning that I see how he sees it but his conclusions are all jacked up. 
First and foremost almost every 03xx NCO/SNCO I know that came over to Recon or MARSOC, including myself, say that if they had not been given the opportunity to come over they probably would have either gotten out or at a minimum tried to get MSG. While they might have loved the actual job the day to day BS was unacceptable. There are a few that only wanted more of a challenge and may have just re-enlisted in the grunts for another 4 but they are very few. It's pretty much either you love the grunts and that’s where you want to be or you want something more. This guy acts like the Marine Corps is making these guys leave and go to Recon or MARSOC. 
Secondly the ranks he discusse are barely an issue. The few Corporals that came over to Recon were extremely senior and tired of not getting promoted in their MOS despite having a billet that was a rank above them. Most of the Sergeants were either senior or already selected for SSgt. In their case these same Sgt's could have easily gotten sent to recruiting or DI duty in which case the infantry losses them anyway. Within MARSOC there are very few Corporals and the ones that are here are once again mostly extremely senior. Not to mention a good chunk of MARSOC recruits are Recon babies, meaning they've been with Recon since they came in. Beyond all of that both Recon and MARSOC recruit from all over the Marine Corps. This guy acts like all of the operators are coming straight from the grunts and we're just sucking the life blood out of the infantry. 
As someone pointed out earlier the grunts don't have a ton of Cpl's or Sgt's because most of them get out. After getting crapped on for four to eight years you don't really feel like asking for four more. He talks about the lack of numbers in these ranks but conveniently overlook that little nugget of knowledge. 
Finally the mission. I'm proud to be a Marine, when I was younger I believed all the hype that I was the best there is and I could do anything, hind sight is 20/20. While he might think that a squad of grunts can execute a precision hard hit as well as a SOF team specifically Force or MARSOC can he's high as hell. I remember the extent of my CQB training with my M16 A2 and it wasn't pretty. "Good job you hit the target" not "what the hell it took you over two minutes to clear that house" The standard from planning to execution is night and day both in training and real world. Collateral damage? I'm guessing that if a Task Force got called in to hit a target its not because nice people lived there. Love my grunts but they are the last people that should be talking about collateral damage, hell that’s one of the things they do best. Bottom line this guys a joke.


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## Hitman2/3 (May 8, 2011)

Alright apparently my computer is possesed. Disregard the second addition of the same post.


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## Marauder06 (May 8, 2011)

Hitman2/3 said:


> Alright apparently my computer is possesed. Disregard the second addition of the same post.



You must be seeing things, what second edition?  ;)


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## Hitman2/3 (May 8, 2011)

Yup my computer is definitely acting weird, that or Afghanistan is driving me crazy. Probably the latter.


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## Rando134 (Nov 19, 2011)

Very intriguing article to say the least. I don't want to repeat all the above, it is all spot on. What I find very amusing is the fact that this is somehow Marsoc's fault, the picture painted by the writer.
   Who wouldn't want to leave? Let's be realistic. There is nothing worse than having a solid NCO, the type that is physically fit, technically and tactically proficient, and at the end of the day, has to take it down about 12 notches because the field is so "in the box" that creative solutions are frowned upon. When a squad leader or vehicle commander only needs the endstate to accomplish the tasks given,  he is instead given a play by play. Where are his peers? In the barracks room playing XBox. This NCO does his best to police his own, be an inspiration to his Marines, and keep it professional. 
   At the end of the day, reality sets in. No matter how much faith he has to make his unit better, it must be a team effort, not a one man show. Once he realizes the facts, he knows he can do better, and pursues Marsoc, or a LatMov to EOD, CI, or Recon. Special Duty? Maybe, if he is willing to come back to it after 3 years. 
   Not every leader is perfect. I have had LT's that I had to mentor and allow them to trust our leadership. Sad truth is that they have been burned in the past by their NCO's and SNCO. It is important to make professional and trustworthy working relationships with key leaders. When Cpl Whoever says he's got it, he needs to perform. Sgt. 6th Deployment, (with the same unit) needs to stop disappearing when tasked out and complaining about his company in front of junior Marines, and thinking he is God's gift. He hasn't left because he is comfortable.
   Where am I going with this? 
   If the mentorship, development, work ethic, maturity, and COMPETENCE was where it needed to be on ALL levels, no one would leave. Period.


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## Olias (Nov 20, 2011)

I'm not a Marine, or a grunt. But I have friends who are, and MARSOC isn't on their list of complaints. Broken cutting score system, poor treatment, ridiculous standards, etc. But that is just what my friends tell me. I guess I'll let y'all judge.


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## pardus (Nov 20, 2011)

Olias said:


> I'm not a Marine, or a grunt. But I have friends who are, and MARSOC isn't on their list of complaints. Broken cutting score system, poor treatment, ridiculous standards, etc. But that is just what my friends tell me. I guess I'll let y'all judge.


 
Thank you for your input, I appreciate your experience as a 21 yr old Sailor, clarifies things for me as a 22 yr Soldier...


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## Olias (Nov 20, 2011)

Is it much the same in the army?


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## pardus (Nov 21, 2011)

Olias said:


> Is it much the same in the army?


 
You tell me, ya'll seem to know...


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## Rando134 (Nov 21, 2011)

> I'm not a Marine, or a grunt. But I have friends who are, and MARSOC isn't on their list of complaints. Broken cutting score system, poor treatment, ridiculous standards, etc. But that is just what my friends tell me. I guess I'll let y'all judge


 
I wouldn't go that far. We have our fair share of kinks, but I know there is much to be proud of.  I hope the stated post above didn't come off as a Corps bash. Seems to be you may have taken it that way, and in all reality, it was just intended to shed some light on an article written.


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## Olias (Nov 21, 2011)

Not at all. Just what my buddies have told me. They love being in the corps, and my Army friends who do bash the corps, I defend the corps by explaining to them that the USMC isn't just America's second Army, but a branch with its own unique mission that the traditional Army can't fulfill, at least not in as a efficient a fashion. But again, my comments above are based on what my Marine buddies have told me, and being a fairly new sailor to the fleet, I can't speak from experience.


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## CDG (Nov 21, 2011)

Olias said:


> Not at all. Just what my buddies have told me.


 
As with the grammar, you will tend to find the "my buddies told me" reasoning less than acceptable on this site, particularly for someone as vastly experienced as yourself. To date you have intimated that you have knowledge of MARSOC, the SEAL Teams, and the complaints of a Marine rifle squad about the USMC. You've been in the Navy since what, breakfast?


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## fox1371 (Nov 21, 2011)

Olias said:


> I'm not a Marine, or a grunt. But I have friends who are, and MARSOC isn't on their list of complaints. Broken cutting score system, poor treatment, ridiculous standards, etc. But that is just what my friends tell me. I guess I'll let y'all judge.


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## Olias (Nov 21, 2011)

Alright then.


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## LimaOscarSierraTango (Nov 21, 2011)

Olias said:


> Alright then.


 
This is what people here have been trying to get you to do.







Really, it's not that difficult.


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## Olias (Nov 21, 2011)

I got it.


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## x SF med (Nov 21, 2011)

Olias said:


> Not at all. Just what my buddies have told me. They love being in the corps, and my Army friends who do bash the corps, I defend the corps by explaining to them that the USMC isn't just America's second Army, but a branch with its own unique mission that the traditional Army can't fulfill, at least not in as a efficient a fashion. But again, my comments above are based on what my Marine buddies have told me, and being a fairly new sailor to the fleet, I can't speak from experience.


 
Here's a hint to keep your vast store of military knowledge, current and correct...  the interservice bashing is mostly Sturm und Drang...  Marines may be a bit slower than most, and SEALs a bit more arrogant, PJs have great hair, Rangers break things, SWCC get lots of cool toys,  and SF is the absolute titz...  but we all back and support each other when it comes to tight spots. Period. Dot. The End.   Hearsay is not admissible in court, and it has the weight of Helium here....

You are pushing the limits of patience among more than a couple of members - you have been asked to hold your immense 4 months of on the job knowledge in your pie hole...  aren't you tired of the verbal abuse yet?

Take the guidance, shhhhhhhhhhh, open eyes and ears, shut mouth and break fingers....  learn, don't lecture, please.


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## Olias (Nov 21, 2011)

Roger.


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## Salt USMC (Nov 24, 2011)

To the MARSOC Marines here, particularly CSOs: What kind of quality have you seen from the support guys coming to the command?  I finally got to read that MCtimes article about the command's support personnel and the impression I got was that they were taking a lot of boots and guys with no deployments.  Are they still quality guys?  What, if anything, do you think could be improved about the recruiting or screening process?


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## HOLLiS (Nov 24, 2011)

x SF med said:


> Here's a hint to keep your vast store of military knowledge, current and correct... the interservice bashing is mostly Sturm und Drang... Marines may be a bit slower than most, and SEALs a bit more arrogant, PJs have great hair, Rangers break things, SWCC get lots of cool toys, and SF is the absolute titz... but we all back and support each other when it comes to tight spots. Period. Dot. The End. Hearsay is not admissible in court, and it has the weight of Helium here....
> 
> You are pushing the limits of patience among more than a couple of members - you have been asked to hold your immense 4 months of on the job knowledge in your pie hole... aren't you tired of the verbal abuse yet?
> 
> Take the guidance, shhhhhhhhhhh, open eyes and ears, shut mouth and break fingers.... learn, don't lecture, please.


 

My like button is broken.   Well said,  and not a bad idea to have it said again.    

My experience, is that if it was not for the other services, there would be a lot more dead Marines, besides being hungry, not supplied, etc   We are a team, each member is important.


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## Uncle Petey (Jan 20, 2012)

this author remind me of my great saying, " Uncommon Douch-baggery was a common virtue."


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