# Handgun for home defense



## Robert Palmer (Oct 17, 2013)

I recently had someone attempt to break in through the my house's back door and then again on a different occasion at the front door. Lucky the person didn't get in and did no damage to my doors. Since I've told this story to my friends and family a few of them told me to "_get a gun_." I don't know all that much on the matter so I figured I'd ask. (since you guys seem pretty knowledgeable on the subject of home defense.)

I know I want either a Glock or Sig but don't know where to go from there. My dad has a Glock 23 .40 and I like it, I just don't think .40 would work in my house because it has some rather thin walls.

Any advice?


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## AWP (Oct 17, 2013)

Robert Palmer said:


> I just don't think .40 would work in my house because it has some rather thin walls.
> 
> Any advice?


 
Learn to shoot or get an ax handle.

What is "rather thin" and what is the material? A .22LR will penetrate more than people realize....


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 17, 2013)

There is really no significant difference in penetration in most common handgun calibers. Interior walls of drywall, hallow core doors and most household furniture are not going to stop a 9mm or a 40 cal.

I carry a G19,  but keep a G22 in my night stand. Its not a caliber issue, but my G22 has my tac-light and has modifications that I am most comfortable with.

I agree with FreeFalling, if/when you buy a gun, go and invest in good quality training. Not the buddy who has done something, or your dad, etc. Go and get it from a professional trainer, and concealed carry licence instructors don't count.


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## Robert Palmer (Oct 17, 2013)

@Freefalling 
I live in a 40's Bungalow and most of the exterior walls are only covered with particle board width material and the exterior is covered by thin wood shingles. No brick or cinder block and very little insulation. That coupled with the proximity of my neighbors' houses makes me think anything .40+ would go straight through my target and into a neighboring house.


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## x SF med (Oct 17, 2013)

do your bullet research, different rounds have different penetration and carry numbers...  agree with JAB, get good training, or a shot gun.


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 17, 2013)

Robert Palmer said:


> @Freefalling
> I live in a 40's Bungalow and most of the exterior walls are only covered with particle board width material and the exterior is covered by thin wood shingles. No brick or cinder block and very little insulation. That coupled with the proximity of my neighbors' houses makes me think anything .40+ would go straight through my target and into a neighboring house.



No. Humans are exceedingly effective bullet traps. You provide the marksmanship, and you provide the combined effects of safety increase for yourself as well as your neighbors.

Miss, and it's a dice roll at that point.

Get training. Real training.


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## Marine0311 (Oct 17, 2013)

1. Everything everyone said. Train first then pick a firearm later. Nothing screams "wrong way" than to go out and get heavy weapons....and then not know how to shoot. I personally own a Glock 9mm (Model 19) and I enjoy it; no issues. 

2. You can invest in some short term, low cost measures such as a yard sign and stickers for your windows. Go shop at Amazon for different types of "Warning/Security/Etc" stickers. 

3. When you do sign up for training research the background of your instructor before. Not Joe Sixpack. Find someone with a lengthly tactical background, LEO and/or military. You can find scores of people from a SWAT background, SF or SOF.

4. We have a section on the forums for training classes. Check it out.


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## policemedic (Oct 17, 2013)

Just a personal observation, but if you're going to buy a Glock buy a 9mm.  The 17 and 19 are their best guns, with perhaps a slight edge to the 17.  I own (as others here do) a G19 that I use for specific purposes.  

If you do your part--marksmanship and bullet selection--the 9mm will do the job quite well.  Ammo is cheaper in that caliber, which makes it easier to train.

I echo the advice above re: penetration.  All defensive handgun calibers will penetrate most home construction materials.  Therefore, it behooves you not to miss.  And that brings me back to training.

Do not go cheap.  I would list some reputable trainers, but that might make me run afoul of the site's rules.  As others have said, SMU/SOF/SWAT experienced instructors are out there and are not hard to find.  

Make sure you understand your state's laws regarding when you can use force and deadly force to protect yourself.


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## roketsciontist (Oct 17, 2013)

personal defense rounds are typically designed to cause maximum damage just after impact, and therefore are less likely to go through and through.  Bonus: they tend to put your enemy down quickly!


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## surgicalcric (Oct 17, 2013)

Mossburg 500/590  Nothing is better for home defense than a shotty.


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## x SF med (Oct 17, 2013)

surgicalcric said:


> Mossburg 500/590  Nothing is better for home defense than a shotty.


 
Just the sound of a 12ga racking will scare off most bad guys, and if it doesn't, well, the BOOM probably will - although the BOOM should separate them into component pieces parts.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 17, 2013)

I carry a Sig 229 in .40 chambered with hollow points and keep a Shield chambered the same way in bedside safe w/blinding flashlight as well. (Not railed, personal preference, but I am not a fan of having a light attached to my self defense weapon) 

Very confident in both to stop a threat if necessary.


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## x SF med (Oct 17, 2013)

Ooh-Rah1069 said:


> I carry a Sig 229 in .40 chambered with hollow points and keep a Shield chambered the same way in bedside safe w/blinding flashlight as well. (Not railed, personal preference, but I am not a fan of having a light attached to my self defense weapon)
> 
> Very confident in both to stop a threat if necessary.


 
Speer Gold Dot 147 gr 9x19 ...  when you want to see the target drop.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 17, 2013)

I use Hornaday critical defense in 115grs for 9mm. I like the Winchester Bonded JHP's in 180gr for .40cal (the FBI load) and I just use standard 230gr FMJs for. 45 ACP.

There are frangible rounds that do not penetrate a lot of things, and I have heard of them used for defense ammo, but I personally wouldn't recommend them. 

Gold-Dots and Golden Saber, are also both good defensive rounds. The Winchester Ranger ammo is pretty good as well, really like the low flash powder they use.

Shotgun in the home is a good choice as well, but can be hard to maneuver in close quarters, and also requires some proficiency in use for multiple targets, threats, etc.

I personally use a pistol for inside the home, and keep a loaded AR15 for other "what if situations".


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 17, 2013)

x SF med said:


> Just the sound of a 12ga racking will scare off most bad guys, and if it doesn't, well, the BOOM probably will - although the BOOM should separate them into component pieces parts.



This is correct but if someone is worried about over penetration, a shotgun is not the answer.  At least not one loaded with 00 buck or slugs.


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## x SF med (Oct 17, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> This is correct but if someone is worried about over penetration, a shotgun is not the answer.  At least not one loaded with 00 buck or slugs.


 
Bird shot (Pheasant load) with a modified skeet choke is nice...  even in 20 ga... 

I usually will grab the pistol with heavy 'slow' (970 fps) frangible rounds...  but I know how to hit the target.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 17, 2013)

Bird shot is really good for reducing the penetration issue, however, you have to be really close, about 0-6 feet, for it to have leathal affect. There are speciality rounds for shotguns as well though.


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## policemedic (Oct 17, 2013)

JAB said:


> I use Hornaday critical defense in 115grs for 9mm. I like the Winchester Bonded JHP's in 180gr for .40cal (the FBI load) and I just use standard 230gr FMJs for. 45 ACP.
> 
> There are frangible rounds that do not penetrate a lot of things, and I have heard of them used for defense ammo, but I personally wouldn't recommend them.
> 
> ...



230gr hardball for a carry round?


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 17, 2013)

x SF med said:


> Bird shot (Pheasant load) with a modified skeet choke is nice...  even in 20 ga...
> 
> I usually will grab the pistol with heavy 'slow' (970 fps) frangible rounds...  but I know how to hit the target.



Roger. In used to arguing the point with uneducated and inexperienced LE types who still think 00 buck is the be all end all and my 5.56 62 grain bonded round is gonna shoot through every wall in the apartment bldg.  and continue across the county for six to seven miles only to punch through the wall of a trailer and kill a baby sleeping in a crib.


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## DA SWO (Oct 17, 2013)

x SF med said:


> Just the sound of a 12ga racking will scare off most bad guys, and if it doesn't, well, the BOOM probably will - although the BOOM should separate them into component pieces parts.


While I agree, I had a LEO friend tell me that isn't as effective as it once was because many thugs don't encounter a shotgun until hitting a house.
She also pointed out that waiting until the front door is kicked in is probably too late in the cycle for loading.


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## Robert Palmer (Oct 17, 2013)

Am I mistaken or aren't frangible rounds only supposed to be used on steel? I thought they'd be worse for a penetration issue.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 17, 2013)

SOWT said:


> While I agree, I had a LEO friend tell me that isn't as effective as it once was because many thugs don't encounter a shotgun until hitting a house.
> She also pointed out that waiting until the front door is kicked in is probably too late in the cycle for loading.



Most shit heads are familiar with shotguns and most any other firearm you can purchase at the local gun store.  I do however agree with the reactive nature of racking a shotgun once a criminal has made entry into your home.  At that point, I would prefer to arm myself if I am not already armed, issue commands if necessary, and if a threat is imminent, remove the threat and then request medical attention followed by contacting an attorney.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 17, 2013)

Robert Palmer said:


> Am I mistaken or aren't frangible rounds only supposed to be used on steel? I thought they'd be worse for a penetration issue.



I can't speak to the ballistic nature of frangible rounds as the only place I have used them is in the shoot house.  Others will chime in but a well aimed bonded hollow point round will do the trick.


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## x SF med (Oct 17, 2013)

Robert Palmer said:


> Am I mistaken or aren't frangible rounds only supposed to be used on steel? I thought they'd be worse for a penetration issue.


 
Do a little research on Speer Gold Dot and Winchester SuperX Super Unleaded 147 gr 9x19 rounds.  both are jacketed high expansion high impact frangible rounds...  they are home defense/personal defense rounds...  147 gr 9mm is a hard hitter.  But, the 115-117 FMJ/TMJ rounds can be stoppers too.


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## Robert Palmer (Oct 18, 2013)

Thanks guys. I understand now, and agree with you all, about the round choice. I knew from the start I would need firearms training because the only shooting I've done has been at the range and hunting. I'd still like to know about your preferences when it comes to handguns though. What do you carry or have in your nightstand?


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## 0699 (Oct 18, 2013)

policemedic said:


> Just a personal observation, but* if you're going to buy a Glock buy a 9mm.  The 17 and 19 are their best guns, with perhaps a slight edge to the 17.  I own (as others here do) a G19 that I use for specific purposes.*
> 
> If you do your part--marksmanship and bullet selection--the 9mm will do the job quite well.  Ammo is cheaper in that caliber, which makes it easier to train.
> 
> ...


 
Fucking A.  Back before I got rid of all my guns due to their dangerous nature, I considered my G17 my favorite.  IMO, all other polymer frame pistols are copies of the 17.  The only downside to the 17 is if you intend to CCW.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 18, 2013)

0699 said:


> Fucking A.  Back before I got rid of all my guns due to their dangerous nature, I considered my G17 my favorite.  IMO, all other polymer frame pistols are copies of the 17.  The only downside to the 17 is if you intend to CCW.


 
My feelings are the same.  Since being alerted to how dangerouse firearms actually are, I prefer to use menacing glares and/or a stern voice to deter intruders.  Back when guns weren't so deadly, it was a Glock 22 w/ light or in a concealed carry situation, Glock 27.


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## AWP (Oct 18, 2013)

Robert Palmer said:


> Thanks guys. I understand now, and agree with you all, about the round choice. I knew from the start I would need firearms training because the only shooting I've done has been at the range and hunting. I'd still like to know about your preferences when it comes to handguns though. What do you carry or have in your nightstand?


 
Go search for the "best handgun for concealed carry" thread. We've been down this path before. The short answer is you ask 100 different people and you'll receive 30-40 different results. Easily.


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## 8654Maine (Oct 18, 2013)

How quickly they forget:  the knife hand.

The best weapon is the one you train with.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 18, 2013)

8654Maine said:


> How quickly they forget:  the knife hand.
> The best weapon is the one you train with.


 
You obviously didn't get the memo:


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## racing_kitty (Oct 18, 2013)

That's bullshit!


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## Centermass (Oct 19, 2013)

I would strongly suggest that in addition to knowing the laws and statutes of your particular state, (As Policemedic stated) and in addition to the training you receive later on down the road, that you also keep some zip ties or handcuffs within your domicile if it should ever come to pass that you need to secure said shit bag while waiting on the meatwagon to arrive. Or you can just keep the subject covered, but it's a good option if needed.

You also need to learn and acquire the mental mindset necessary needed to properly react to those scenarios so that your weapon of choice does not get turned around and USED AGAINST YOU amongst other things.

Learn how and where to secure, stow your weapon. You have a myriad of things to consider when you do this. Are there little ones running around the house? If not, are there ever? When I leave the house, do I take it with me? If I do, how do I transport it legally? If I don't, how do I secure it properly? How do I get to it when I need it and where it will be and where will you be when and if this ever happens?

I highly recommend reading Massad Ayoob's "In The Gravest Extreme" It's a little dated, however, the fundamentals and principles are still the same and have not changed.

Finally, practice, practice and practice some more.

BTW, did I mention practice?

It ain't all just about buying a handgun. Just some things to think about.


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## Robert Palmer (Oct 19, 2013)

I get where you guys are coming from. This is by far not the first place I've come looking into the matter. I've done a lot of research on my state and county laws and regs, gun safes/locks, and other things to make sure that; 1. This is the step that needs to be taken and 2. That if I do take this step that I know as much as possible and be as safe as possible.


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## pardus (Oct 19, 2013)

x SF med said:


> Bird shot (Pheasant load) with a modified skeet choke is nice...  even in 20 ga...



Funnily enough I just spoke to a retired cop yesterday who told me from personal experience that this is not a lethal load.

It would probably ruin your day though and would certainly lessen the penetration issues. Not for me though, I don't want anyone getting up again.


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## 0699 (Oct 19, 2013)

Centermass said:


> I would strongly suggest that in addition to knowing the laws and statutes of your particular state, (As Policemedic stated) and in addition to the training you receive later on down the road, that you also keep some zip ties or handcuffs within your domicile if it should ever come to pass that *you need to secure said shit bag while waiting on the meatwagon* to arrive. Or you can just keep the subject covered, but it's a good option if needed.


 
Dead men tell no tales.


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## pardus (Oct 19, 2013)

0699 said:


> Dead men tell no tales.



Exactly, can't give their side of what happened or sue you.


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## policemedic (Oct 19, 2013)

pardus said:


> Exactly, can't give their side of what happened or sue you.


 
Ah, but their family can.


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## pardus (Oct 19, 2013)

policemedic said:


> Ah, but their family can.



True, but without a witness


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 19, 2013)

policemedic said:


> Ah, but their family can.



All the more reason for legal coverage for personal defense as an affirmative defense against both criminal AND civil suits


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 20, 2013)

Rob,

Just the other week I purchased an H&R Pardner Protector Pump for less than $200.00 at Dick's Sporting Goods.

Remington purchased the rights to this particular model as it has performed exceptionally well. It is an 870 clone with the receiver being slightly larger and is essentially Remington's answer for the Maverick I suppose.

I put a ATI collapsable stock made for 870s as those are the accepted aftermarket parts and a magpul foreend. I couldn't be happier.

Performs like an animal, tears through rounds, and with the 870 parts the wife can hang on. After all was said and done; ammo included - I spent less than $350.00

Toss the glock and go 1 or 00 buckshot for the house.

My .2


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## x SF med (Oct 21, 2013)

pardus said:


> Funnily enough I just spoke to a retired cop yesterday who told me from personal experience that this is not a lethal load.
> 
> It would probably ruin your day though and would certainly lessen the penetration issues. Not for me though, I don't want anyone getting up again.


 
not the first round , maybe, but 2 and 3 should do the trick...  and the HH6 will be putting 9mm into the disabled perp... or the armament may be reversed...  there will be hamburger and punctures on a bad guy...


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## pardus (Oct 21, 2013)

x SF med said:


> not the first round , maybe, but 2 and 3 should do the trick...  and the HH6 will be putting 9mm into the disabled perp... or the armament may be reversed...  there will be hamburger and punctures on a bad guy...



Can't argue with that! lol


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## x SF med (Oct 21, 2013)

pardus said:


> Can't argue with that! lol


 
and this is why linoleum and tile are great floor coverings!  If you use wood, bar top is the preferred final finish, cleans up really nicely.


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## pardus (Oct 21, 2013)

x SF med said:


> and this is why linoleum and tile are great floor coverings!  If you use wood, bar top is the preferred final finish, cleans up really nicely.



Apart from anything else, DNA is not your friend!


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 22, 2013)

x SF med said:


> not the first round , maybe, but 2 and 3 should do the trick...  and the HH6 will be putting 9mm into the disabled perp... or the armament may be reversed...  there will be hamburger and punctures on a bad guy...


 
Once you go to work in closed quarters with most any firearm, people on the receiving end who aren't incapacitated have a tendency to try and unass the AO.  This isn't always the case, however, as you indicate, a couple extra rounds can and will do the trick!


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 22, 2013)

Anyone who gives me cause to fire once inside me home gave me cause to fire multiple times.


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## Marine0311 (Oct 22, 2013)

I need to get a shotgun.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 22, 2013)

Ranger Psych said:


> Anyone who gives me cause to fire once inside me home gave me cause to fire multiple times.


 
Indeed.  Anyone worth shooting once is worth shooting twice!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 22, 2013)

@Centermass is spot on with his post, find out the justification and laws regarding the use of deadly force inside your home. I would also recommend getting some self defense insurance, look at the NRA, I carry a concealed carry policy through them.

@policemedic, yeah 230gr ball. I don't CC my 45, but do have two loaded, in different areas of my house. I like the performance of ball, but will admit that if I carried it, used it for LE work, etc, I would look at some other options, probably 230gr Gold Dot.

ETA: Shotty in the house, a few things I think are somewhat not addressed right/correctly: shotgun takes a lot of proficiency to work, depending on the model. Weight and length are draw backs, especially if you get into a two way gunfight and take a hit/become the one armed gunfighter. Round selections are good but some insight, bird shot is for killing birds, not humans. 00 or 000 buck or an expandable slug would be the best options IMHO. Penetration can be more than many handgun rounds, so I would not view it as a reduced penetration option. High velocity rifles (AR15) actually penetrate less at close range, and generally break apart on impact with interior materials. 55gr soft points is a good option. I would rather just go with a carbine/rifle, however, again if you take a round, if you are trying to locate and secure your kids, have to turn door knobs, or any other one handed work, a pistol with a mounted light, is IMHO, the best option.

$.02


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 22, 2013)

SOWT said:


> While I agree, I had a LEO friend tell me that isn't as effective as it once was because many thugs don't encounter a shotgun until hitting a house.
> She also pointed out that waiting until the front door is kicked in is probably too late in the cycle for loading.



I agree, its really dependent on the individual breaking into your home. Pointing a gun is no different. Being gun up, ready to fire, with a round in the chamber, giving commands is a better theroy to go off. At least if the dumbass decides to continue being dumbass, you can pop a round in him.

Also getting into the issue of giving your position away before you have gained a dominant firing position with eyes on the threat, etc.


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## policemedic (Oct 22, 2013)

I actually think the whole racking a shotgun thing came from necessity, not a desire to create drama.  Most PDs keep shotguns and similar weapons in Condition 3, thus necessitating working the action when you pull it out of the car. That's not to say racking it doesn't get attention--it does. But I don't depend on it to stop a fight. 

For most people, I think it's reasonable to have your home defense shotgun/carbine  fully loaded and ready to go. 

Of course, that assumes the owner can ensure little ones can't touch it, etc.


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## DA SWO (Oct 22, 2013)

policemedic said:


> Ah, but their family can.


Not in Texas.


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## policemedic (Oct 22, 2013)

SOWT said:


> Not in Texas.



Texas is a great state.


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## pardus (Oct 22, 2013)

JAB said:


> High velocity rifles (AR15) actually penetrate less at close range, and generally break apart on impact with interior materials.



I was under the impression that the penetration thing was debunked a while back, and I'm certain the break apart thing is not true.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 22, 2013)

pardus said:


> I was under the impression that the penetration thing was debunked a while back, and I'm certain the break apart thing is not true.



Debunked what and by who? The FBI ballistics testing lab would disagree with you on the breaking apart bit.

One of the main reasons that HRT, and most LEA SWAT teams moved to the AR15 platform for an entry weapon, was due to the low material penetration and fragmentation (breaking apart) of the round at close range. 

5.56/223 needs about 50meters to develop its material penetration qualities, and performance is at its peak around 200 meters.


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## pardus (Oct 22, 2013)

JAB said:


> Debunked what and by who? The FBI ballistics testing lab would disagree with you on the breaking apart bit.
> 
> One of the main reasons that HRT, and most LEA SWAT teams moved to the AR15 platform for an entry weapon, was due to the low material penetration and fragmentation (breaking apart) of the round at close range.
> 
> 5.56/223 needs about 50meters to develop its material penetration qualities, and performance is at its peak around 200 meters.



Well I guess we just both need to provide documentation/proof  to back up our statements.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 22, 2013)

pardus said:


> Well I guess we just both need to provide documentation/proof  to back up our statements.



lol, my end is pretty damn well known throughout the shooting commuanity...

If you have data, that states otherwise, by all means post it up.


Some good reading on how the AR15 made its way into being the primary entry weapon on FBI HRT & SWAT teams.

Touches on the ballistics I'm posting about.

http://www.americanrifleman.org/mobile/article.php?id=24838


 Special Agent Bob Taubert, then assigned to the unit responsible for training the FBI’s field SWAT teams, pushed for the change. When I talked with him recently, he gave full credit for the initial push to two Southwestern law officers, cousins Jack and Rick Furr. They, in turn, give credit to Clint Smith of Thunder Ranch fame, who was an early proponent of the AR as an entry weapon. Taubert finally convinced the Firearms Training Unit to test the ballistic performance of the .223 Rem. against the two SMG rounds then in use, the 9 mm Luger 147-gr. JHP and the 10 mm 180-gr. JHP. 

Ballistic Research Facility personnel ran the rounds through the complete FBI protocol. When the smoke cleared, it was apparent that the .223 Rem. rounds penetrated less than the handgun cartridges. Except for the longer range of a missed round, the AR system was found to be a safer and more effective round to use in close-quarter combat. 

The switch from submachine guns to the M16 and M4 was then rapid and complete. The MP5 in both calibers was replaced both in training and in the field. Today, new agents in training at Quantico use M4s with “iron” sights and modified to fire semi-automatic only. In the field, investigative agents use an M4 made by Rock River Arms with an adjustable-length stock, EOTech sight on a Dominator mount with a SureFire M73 light. The rifles are semi-automatic only. The field SWAT teams are using mostly Colt M4s capable of both semi- and full-automatic fire with PLR1 lights by Streamlight. A very few MP5s in either 9 mm or 10 mm are still out there but are seldom put into operation, and new agents in training at the FBI Academy, Quantico, are no longer trained on the system.


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 22, 2013)

last test I read:

Wall 1: Interior double drywall with insulation walls and normal studs
Wall 2: Interior double drywall with insulation walls and normal studs
Wall 3: Drywall, Insulation, Exterior plywood, Exterior siding
Wall 4: Reverse of wall 3, simulating house next door

Buck, Slug, 308 and 9mm out of common shotguns/subguns/rifles just kept fucking going
5.56 had a 50/50 chance of exiting the home, no penetrations of "next door". When it did exit the exterior siding of the "fired in home" it barely dented the siding "next door" 

This was with standard 00 buck, rifled 1oz slug, and military-esque FMJ ammo.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 22, 2013)

Also I have quite a few pdf's supporting what I am saying, but cant post them due to being limited to my phone. But will be glad to share them when I can.


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## Centermass (Oct 22, 2013)

policemedic said:


> Most PDs keep shotguns and similar *weapons in Condition 3*, thus necessitating working the action when you pull it out of the car.



Aw yes. We called it "Cruiser safe." 

Guess you guys in PA call it "Cheese Steak ready"


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 23, 2013)

pardus said:


> Well I guess we just both need to provide documentation/proof  to back up our statements.


 
I could scan in an entire text on this but won't (it's probably U/FOUO anyway).  I sat through the class and watched the gelatin block tests myself.  Penetration for a bonded 5.56 is around 16" and around 18" for the slug-this is from the book.  Something to take into overall consideration is that roughly 80% or shots fired in engagements do not hit the target (granted, this is LE situations, but you get the point).

As for non-bonded .223 not breaking apart, the M855 begins to break apart at roughly 3" of penetration and is fully fragmented by 7".


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## Robert Palmer (Oct 23, 2013)

So to sum up the advice from this thread: Hit the target or buy a shotgun...?


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## x SF med (Oct 23, 2013)

JAB, Pardus -
Here are some good links to Terminal ballistics sites/articles/pdfs...
http://www.frfrogspad.com/terminal.htm
http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2005smallarms/tuesday/macdougall.pdf
http://wstiac.alionscience.com/pdf/WQV8N1_ART01.pdf
http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_rifle_bullets.htm

As you can see... there is some disagreement in the community about exact lethality at CQB ranges for rifle and pistol efficacy...  read into it what you will, but I tried to grab differing views and civilian versus military.

Have fun.


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## RustyShackleford (Oct 23, 2013)

Robert Palmer said:


> So to sum up the advice from this thread: Hit the target or buy a shotgun...?


 
Yeah...this thread kind of took on a life of its own.  Get educated and hit the target or buy a shotgun!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 23, 2013)

Robert Palmer said:


> So to sum up the advice from this thread: Hit the target or buy a shotgun...?


No. You need to be able to hit the target with whatever you decide to buy/use for home protection. A shotgun is not some magical area weapon, you still have to aim it, especially when using buck shot or a slug (lethal loads) in close quarters (such as inside the home). Buck shot and slugs will penetrate at the same level as most pistol cartridges.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 23, 2013)

@RustyShackleford, regarding the test you are talking about, was that the 65-68gr "barrier blind" bonded round? If it is, and if I am not mistaken, that was designed to defeat intermediate barriers, such auto glass, sheet metal, etc, but while allow the projectile to continue into the intended target. Not an AP round, but better penetration without the fragmentation, etc. I think I read a report by Doc Gary Roberts on it.

@x SF med, I've got two of those reports. The issue at hand was not the lethallity of 5.56/223, but the penetration and fragmentation that pardus was questioning. I've said it for awhile around here, 556/223 is plenty lethal when the rounds are put in the right spot.

@pardus, I am willing to debate the subject further if you want to open another thread on the topic. I should be on a PC this evening and will post up some PDF's if you do decide to start another thread. It would be a great topic...


----------



## x SF med (Oct 23, 2013)

@JAB  the lethality, penetration and fragmentation are covered if you read all 3 reports, and it also compares to the lethality versus handguns and shotguns.  there is an over penetration issue with any high velocity round that does not find the right depth of target - and in many cases at short range any 5.56 or 7.62 round is too 'hot' to be stopped by the target unless you get total bone contact in multiple sites with the initial track...  take the new green tip rounds... they're made to penetrate armor which strips dome of the case , then expand... no armor, and you've hit your target with a laser beam it punches right through the target, no energy transfer because condition one - stripping/compressing the shroud does not occur.  close range FMJ/TMJ rifle rounds do the same thing although not as well.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 23, 2013)

@x SF med, the velocity of the round, is what causes the internal ballistic cavity (permanent and temp). The fragmenting, has to do with the actual shape of the projectile. Not all projectiles are equal. However, the M855 (green tip) is not an armor piecing round, and the steel core(s) is described to offer intermediate penetration on light material. It was actually designed for that and increased range/accuracy over the M193 (lead core) FMJ round. Although performance is lacking vs current projectile technology. At distances such as 50m- 350m (200m being the peak), yes M855 is morelike a "laser beam" in its through and through qualities. However, at "close range" the effect of the round is very different and there is significant studies and testing that prove that (yawing,  tumbling and fragmentation).

Again I'll post more about it tonight...


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 23, 2013)

Not really scientific, but cool to watch and see how the round actually works.


----------



## pardus (Oct 23, 2013)

JAB said:


> @pardus, I am willing to debate the subject further if you want to open another thread on the topic. I should be on a PC this evening and will post up some PDF's if you do decide to start another thread. It would be a great topic...



I'm not trying to debate it I was just sure I read that it had been debunked. I could be wrong. Possibly something to do with the change to the M855? 
I know the old 55gr breaks up/stops relatively easily but the M855?

I will do some digging and look at everything posted in detail soon.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 23, 2013)

No worries, M855 at close range will also fragment, yaw and or tumble. I've read steadies that do claim different, but normally do not properly define the distance to test media. Those studies I tend to not pay much attention to, due to the lack of details (like distance, velocities, etc). The M855 is a bit inconsistent dependent on manufacturer as well, but that's another topic in itself. 

I've got the USMC's lessons learned and review on M855 performances in Iraq, you would probably enjoy reading.


----------



## pardus (Oct 23, 2013)

JAB said:


> No worries, M855 at close range will also fragment, yaw and or tumble. I've read steadies that do claim different, but normally do not properly define the distance to test media. Those studies I tend to not pay much attention to, due to the lack of details (like distance, velocities, etc). The M855 is a bit inconsistent dependent on manufacturer as well, but that's another topic in itself.
> 
> I've got the USMC's lessons learned and review on M855 performances in Iraq, you would probably enjoy reading.



I wonder if it was one of those studies I read. Who the fuck knows. 

If you have an electronic version of the USMC document please email it to me, I would very much like to read it.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 23, 2013)

Roger will do.

I'm ganna open another thread under "Ballistic Performance"


----------



## x SF med (Oct 23, 2013)

M855 was replaced about 3 years ago (8/2010) with the M855A1 ... because, in short the m855 sucked.  the m855a1 is better, but still has issues.
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com...ues-new-m855a1-ammo-to-troops-in-afghanistan/

other countries go to larger round due to the 5.56 Nato rounds not adaptable to current battle conditions (trajectory, bullet drop, high/low angle shooting)
http://sadefensejournal.com/wp/?p=778

Home protection/ terminal and flight ballistics of common calibers
http://www.ar15.com/ammo/project/Self_Defense_Ammo_FAQ/


----------



## pardus (Oct 23, 2013)

I was not impressed at all with the wounds I saw inflicted by the M855A1.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 23, 2013)

https://shadowspear.com/vb/threads/ballistic-performance.19249/#post-311065

Here is the thread I started to carry on the conversation.


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## airbornenuttsac (Oct 24, 2013)

My friends laugh at me but I keep a sharp Katana by my bed, no gun.  I am some what of a nut...but their can be only one.


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## Salt USMC (Oct 24, 2013)

airbornenuttsac said:


> My friends laugh at me but I keep a sharp Katana by my bed, no gun.  I am some what of a nut...but their can be only one.


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## Robert Palmer (Oct 24, 2013)

JAB said:


> No. You need to be able to hit the target with whatever you decide to buy/use for home protection. A shotgun is not some magical area weapon, you still have to aim it, especially when using buck shot or a slug (lethal loads) in close quarters (such as inside the home). Buck shot and slugs will penetrate at the same level as most pistol cartridges.



I just meant to deal with the penetration problem. Yes I plan to aim.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 25, 2013)

Nevermind...


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## surgicalcric (Oct 25, 2013)

airbornenuttsac said:


> My friends laugh at me...



You are being laughed at by more than just your friends.  Stop the silly shit before you end up on the outside looking in.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 25, 2013)

Robert Palmer said:


> I just meant to deal with the penetration problem. Yes I plan to aim.



Again a shotgun with buck/slug (lethal rounds) will penetrate the same as most pistol rounds.


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## Slider496 (Nov 17, 2013)

Honestly youll have to get to a range and find out what works for you as far as handguns. Ive owned (before I got rid of all my firearms) a Gen 4 Glock 23 and Ive found its rather peppy and doesnt like to stay in my hand (Even moreso than the 21, mainly because its smaller). That doesnt really bode well for rapid fire. Personally I prefer Sig, hypothetically if I owned firearms my family would own like 8 of these. Sigs are really comfortable in the hand, the controls are easy to reach, all the models Ive seen have glow in the dark sights, they come in every caliber you could want(Including the new 227 in .45), and its an extremely reliable and accurate handgun. The only complaint people have is that they dont have an external safety. Ive used Glocks, 1911s, Springield XDs, Berettas, S&W M&Ps, Taurus, you name it. And the Sigs are by far the best Ive come across.

As for your penetration problem, I would agree with the earlier post about Speer Gold Dot JHP. Fantastic rounds. And I wouldnt really use a shotgun unless youre either point blank, or you feel like shredding everything around and behind the target.

Hypothetically....


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## The Hate Ape (Nov 17, 2013)

airbornenuttsac said:


> My friends laugh at me but I keep a sharp Katana by my bed, no gun.  I am some what of a nut...but their can be only one.



SS needs an 8 count box...


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## policemedic (Nov 17, 2013)

Slider496 said:


> Honestly youll have to get to a range and find out what works for you as far as handguns. Ive owned (before I got rid of all my firearms) a Gen 4 Glock 23 and Ive found its rather peppy and doesnt like to stay in my hand (Even moreso than the 21, mainly because its smaller). That doesnt really bode well for rapid fire. Personally I prefer Sig, hypothetically if I owned firearms my family would own like 8 of these. Sigs are really comfortable in the hand, the controls are easy to reach, all the models Ive seen have glow in the dark sights, they come in every caliber you could want(Including the new 227 in .45), and its an extremely reliable and accurate handgun. The only complaint people have is that they dont have an external safety. Ive used Glocks, 1911s, Springield XDs, Berettas, S&W M&Ps, Taurus, you name it. And the Sigs are by far the best Ive come across.
> 
> As for your penetration problem, I would agree with the earlier post about Speer Gold Dot JHP. Fantastic rounds. And I wouldnt really use a shotgun unless youre either point blank, or you feel like shredding everything around and behind the target.
> 
> Hypothetically....


 
What's with the hypothetical business?

You're wrong about the shotgun, particularly with modern loads like Federal Tactical buckshot.  If I have time I'll post targets shot with that load through an 870 SBS at various distances.


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## Slider496 (Nov 17, 2013)

policemedic said:


> What's with the hypothetical business?
> 
> You're wrong about the shotgun, particularly with modern loads like Federal Tactical buckshot.  If I have time I'll post targets shot with that load through an 870 SBS at various distances.



If you have time go for it, Im interested to see. As for the hypothetical stuff, its a gun control joke.


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## RustyShackleford (Nov 18, 2013)

policemedic said:


> What's with the hypothetical business?


 
We got rid of our guns once we found out how dangerous they are.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 18, 2013)

I get all bent up when I read the magical area weapon theoretical opinions of the shotgun.

12g 00 Buck spreads at about 1 inch per a yard (per 3 feet) the longest straight shot in my house is 28.5 feet (roughly 9.5 yards) meaning that inside my house at the longest possible shot I could possibly make, my shot group spread is only going to be a Max of about 10 inches. The average engagement length in my house is about 5-6 yards, meaning my average shot that would be taken would result in a 5-6 inch shot group.

When you put it into the theroy of a combat effective pistol shot group under stress (6 inches), the spread of a 00 Buck shot, at the average engagement area, would be no different than a pistol, in theory anyway.

@Slider496, @policemedic is spot on with the "flitecontrol" tactical buck shot produced by Federal. The shot pattern spread is less then a third of common buck shot at distance. If you take the time to youtube Federal flitecontrol 00 Buck range test, you will see more than a few videos showing the reduced spread of shot at distances past 25 yards.


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## 0699 (Nov 18, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> We got rid of our guns once we found out how dangerous they are.


 
And our healthcare plans; those things are CRAZY dangerous...


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## Slider496 (Nov 18, 2013)

JAB said:


> I get all bent up when I read the magical area weapon theoretical opinions of the shotgun.
> 
> 12g 00 Buck spreads at about 1 inch per a yard (per 3 feet) the longest straight shot in my house is 28.5 feet (roughly 9.5 yards) meaning that inside my house at the longest possible shot I could possibly make, my shot group spread is only going to be a Max of about 10 inches. The average engagement length in my house is about 5-6 yards, meaning my average shot that would be taken would result in a 5-6 inch shot group.
> 
> ...



Good to know, My experience is limited to 12ga 00 Buck from an M1014 at a max of 25 meters. Generally theres not much left of the target or anything around it. But Ill definitely look around for those rounds. Thanks for the tip!


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## usmcvet (Dec 30, 2013)

Get a high quality gun and high quality training.  I like Glock's and would suggest a G19 or G17 for a new shooter.  You might like something else, that's cool.  Everyone will have their opinions.  Shotguns and AR's are awesome too.  Again buy high quality and get some good training.  What's your background in shooting? Try shooting some different guns to see what works best for you.  If I were starting out again I would look at the S&W M&P's.  The G23 is a very snappy gun.  It was my first duty weapon in '92.  I carry a G22 at work and a M&P 9mm Shield as a back up and off duty.  It works for me and my 11 year old son likes to soot the 9mm but the .40 pounds him.  That's why I went with the 9mm Shield and not the .40.  

Don't listen to anyone who tells you that the "sound of a 12GA" being cycled is all you need.  If someone tells you that they're a fool.


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## BeardedConservative (Jan 9, 2014)

I have a 3.8 XDm that works damn well for myself, I was also looking into getting the Springfield XDs or even a Rock Island 1911. So many guns to choose from.


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## RustyShackleford (Jan 9, 2014)

You guys should really consider giving up your guns...too dangerous!


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## x SF med (Jan 9, 2014)

RustyShackleford said:


> You guys should really consider giving up your guns...too dangerous!




You deserve hate for that smarmy sarcastic remark...  but you will not get what you deserve, this time...:wall:


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## medicchick (Jan 9, 2014)

RustyShackleford said:


> You guys should really consider giving up your guns...too dangerous!


Should we ship them to you for proper disposal?  

It's fun setting up home owners insurance and declining any jewelry coverage and upping guns to where they need a special rider.


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## Ranger Psych (Jan 9, 2014)

RustyShackleford said:


> You guys should really consider giving up your guns...too dangerous!



Come and get'em, mr man....... >:)


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## RustyShackleford (Jan 9, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> Come and get'em, mr man....... >:)



You and HH6 just send them to me for safe keeping! I'll make sure they get to the mill for proper disposal!


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## Ranger Psych (Jan 9, 2014)

RustyShackleford said:


> You and HH6 just send them to me for safe keeping! I'll make sure they get to the mill for proper disposal!



You know... I was never overly concerned with "The Man" coming after my shit, because I never had much respect for "The Man" in the first place having been in the military and seeing how most LE rolls... then hearing you bitching about workin "as The Man" means I really have less and less to worry about.


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## RustyShackleford (Jan 9, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> You know... I was never overly concerned with "The Man" coming after my shit, because I never had much respect for "The Man" in the first place having been in the military and seeing how most LE rolls... then hearing you bitching about workin "as The Man" means I really have less and less to worry about.


Hey, that's what I tell guys...nothing to worry about.  Nothing to worry about at all!


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## BeardedConservative (Jan 10, 2014)

I just traded all my guns for magical unicorns and a rainbow gun!!! I will also be wearing the below attached photo for anyone who wishes to break in!!! I'll twerk you to death!


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 17, 2014)

OK, so I've read through this thread a few times now and I'm taking away a few key points.
-Shotgun or pistol are both viable options for home defense
-Pistol caliber will not matter as much as choosing the "correct" type of round, as most calibers will penetrate furniture, walls, etc
-Learn to hit what you are aiming at or keep a bat beside your bed vice a firearm
-Get quality training from folks like those who advertise on our board

All that taken into account, for those of us who live in states where magazine capacity is limited in handguns, would that change any of the above points for a home defense weapon? does it make a stronger case for a shotgun over a pistol or a 9mm over .45? or does it simply go back to, learn to hit what you are aiming at?


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## policemedic (Aug 17, 2014)

Get a gun that fits your hand, and train with it often.  My preference is a 1911, but that's me.  A Glock, M&P or HK will serve you just as well.  Where caliber is concerned, I wouldn't go below 9mm.  Shot placement is the key.  Spend money on ammo and training with those who have seen the elephant and you'll be good, brother.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 17, 2014)

policemedic said:


> Get a gun that fits your hand, and train with it often.  My preference is a 1911, but that's me.  A Glock, M&P or HK will serve you just as well.  Where caliber is concerned, I wouldn't go below 9mm.  Shot placement is the key.  Spend money on ammo and training with those who have seen the elephant and you'll be good, brother.


Awesome, thanks for the response.  I'm leaning towards a G17 or G19 (based on a few of yall's advice, coupled with the proper rounds based on what the Troll and a few others have suggested) through Glock's blue label program.  My next decision is do I buy in AZ to avoid the fucking hassle here in CA, transport it here and just register it or jump through all the hoops and red tape to buy here in CA?  I still regret the day I sold my G22 and USP 40.


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## medicchick (Aug 17, 2014)

Don't forget one of the most important things....

Know what is on the other side of the wall if you shoot.


SkrewzLoose said:


> Awesome, thanks for the response.  I'm leaning towards a G17 or G19 (based on a few of yall's advice, coupled with the proper rounds based on what the Troll and a few others have suggested) through Glock's blue label program.  My next decision is do I buy in AZ to avoid the fucking hassle here in CA, transport it here and just register it or jump through all the hoops and red tape to buy here in CA?  I still regret the day I sold my G22 and USP 40.


Last time I checked it was illegal to do that, like ATF felony charges illegal unless you mean having it shipped to a FFL.  You need to buy one in CA if that is where you live.


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## surgicalcric (Aug 17, 2014)

medicchick said:


> ...Last time I checked it was illegal to do that, like ATF felony charges illegal unless you mean having it shipped to a FFL.  You need to buy one in CA if that is where you live.



Illegal to purchase a forearm in another state?

 If so I guess I have committed somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 or 11 felonies.


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## policemedic (Aug 17, 2014)

It depends on what his home of record is.  If he's just stationed in CA but still maintains an AZ DL and address...


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## medicchick (Aug 17, 2014)

surgicalcric said:


> Illegal to purchase a forearm in another state?
> 
> If so I guess I have committed somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 or 11 felonies.


No to transport guns into CA unless on a PCS.


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## medicchick (Aug 17, 2014)

policemedic said:


> It depends on what his home of record is.  If he's just stationed in CA but still maintains an AZ DL and address...


Doesn't matter, you cannot buy guns (per federal regulation) in any state in-person other then the one your reside in.  "Home of record" doesn't matter.  Like to the laws made easier to understand.  Understand I am JUST addressing California.  Other states may vary, check your local laws.

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Federal_residency_requirements

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_firearms_Interstate


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## Totentanz (Aug 17, 2014)

surgicalcric said:


> Illegal to purchase a forearm in another state?
> 
> If so I guess I have committed somewhere in the neighborhood of 10 or 11 felonies.


IIRC, its legal for long arms.  Interstate handgun sales are a no-go unless conducted through an FFL.  I ran into that a few years back when I tried to purchase a Glock immediately after a PCS move.


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## Ranger Psych (Aug 17, 2014)

MC's right, I'll break it down barney style.

What matters is where receipt of the weapon is, in ALL cases, but ESPECIALLY with calistupid in the mix.

You can BUY a gun anywhere. I can go all over the fucking place, buy a weapon there, give them my FFL address and contact info, and have them send it.  The reason that's legal is that you take possession of the firearm in your state of residence.

It's mandatory for handguns. Period. If you buy a handgun in another state and don't go through a FFL in your state of residence, *you just earned federal level buttsex.*

Long guns, supposedly you can buy them outside of your state of residence. I haven't run into places even while I was active duty, that would sell to me when I was on leave. Your mileage may vary *however with long guns you REALLY WANT TO HAVE IT SENT TO A FFL FOR RECEIPT INTO CALIFORNIA SO THEY ENSURE ITS LEGAL. *That's what the FFL's specialize in, more than actually even carrying weapons in a store, in California. Is dis shit legal to own. They won't accept it outright if it's outright banned, and they'll convert it to BE legal if it's like an AR where it's "Legal if....."

You know what the best option is, if you like guns?

PCS THE FUCK OUT OF CALIFORNIA.  Seriously.


----------



## policemedic (Aug 17, 2014)

medicchick said:


> Doesn't matter, you cannot buy guns (per federal regulation) in any state in-person other then the one your reside in.  "Home of record" doesn't matter.  Like to the laws made easier to understand.  Understand I am JUST addressing California.  Other states may vary, check your local laws.
> 
> http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/Federal_residency_requirements
> 
> http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_firearms_Interstate


 


Ranger Psych said:


> MC's right, I'll break it down barney style.
> 
> What matters is where receipt of the weapon is, in ALL cases, but ESPECIALLY with calistupid in the mix.
> 
> ...


 
I stand corrected.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Aug 17, 2014)

Here's some other key things from Calguns, a nonprofit committed to re-establishing the 2A in California, the land of stupid laws:

*



			Can I buy a gun outside California?
		
Click to expand...

*


> If you do not have any kind of FFL, NO.
> 
> Federal law requires interstate transfers to go through a CA FFL for CA residents.
> 
> ...



Additional information specifically about pistols:



> * What is the "Safe Handgun Roster?"*
> The California Roster of Handguns Certified for Sale. It lists the handguns which a non-Law Enforcement California resident can buy new from a dealer. More info here and here.
> 
> * Can I buy a handgun not on the "Roster” from an FFL/Dealer?*
> ...




And further:  

*Is the Roster even about safety? *No. The original intent was to put ‘Ring of Fire’ gun manufacturers out of business. Unfortunately for that intent, the guns – Davis, Lorcin, Bryco etc. – passed the tests.

It is also intended to establish the legislature’s ability to classify some guns as ‘bad’, and others as ‘less bad’. In this they have succeeded.*

How does a gun get on the Roster? *A manufacturer or an importer (and ONLY those) submits a handgun for testing. They must supply THREE copies of the gun to be tested, and pay a fee. (PC 12130)

The gun must pass a defined firing requirement (PC 12127) and a drop safety test (PC 12128). It must also meet other requirements in effect at the time it is submitted for testing, _currently_ a magazine disconnect and a loaded chamber indicator for semi-automatic handguns. (PC 12126(b)(5))*

The Roster shows an expiration date; what is that for? *That means it is time for the manufacturer/importer to pay the annual $200 fee for that model. If the fee is paid, the handgun stays on the Roster. _Nothing else has to happen._ If the fee is paid, no new requirements apply after an expiration date.*

What happens to a gun if the manufacturer/importer does not pay the fee? *The gun drops off the Roster. Ordinarily, this happens because the manufacturer no longer sells that model.

_Sometimes_ there is an administrative reason a fee is not paid. In at least one case, a manufacturer was allowed to certify that the gun as manufactured at that time was identical to the gun as tested when put on the Roster, and the gun was just put back on. [ 11 CA ADC § 4070(e) ]*

If a manufacturer stops paying the fee, can someone else pay to keep it on the list? *No. 11 CA ADC § 4059(c) and § 4071
Quote:
(c) Other than the DOJ, only the manufacturer/importer of a handgun model is authorized to submit that handgun model to a DOJ-Certified Laboratory for testing.
*
The Legislature passed a new law about handguns (e.g. microstamping); what does that mean for guns on the Roster?*Unless the Legislature writes the law differently, _nothing_. Guns on the Roster are not affected by laws passed after the gun was listed; so far, the changes have been required only for guns not yet on the Roster and offered for testing to get on the Roster after the effective date of the law.*

I don’t get it. Guns on the Roster don’t have to meet the new laws?*
Right. Example: A Glock pistol was added to the Roster in 2001. Glock, Inc. continues to pay the annual fee.
​Effective 2007, all semi-automatic handguns submitted for testing to get on the Roster must have both a magazine disconnect and a loaded-chamber indicator.
​This requirement has _no effect_ on guns already on the Roster, because the law is written as
Quote:
(5) Commencing January 1, 2007, for all center fire semiautomatic pistols *that are not already listed on the roster *pursuant to Section 12131, it does not have both a chamber load indicator and if it has a detachable magazine, a magazine disconnect mechanism.
THEREFORE, the Glock does NOT need the magazine disconnect or loaded chamber indicator – it is already on the Roster, and the law is written to exclude guns already on the Roster.
*

Practically, what does it mean when a gun is NOT on the Roster, or a manufacturer lets one fall off the Roster?*
California FFL dealers are not allowed to sell it to ‘civilians’ from dealer stock.
*
Huh? That’s it?*
Yes.

LEOs can buy them. Someone can move into California as a legal owner of one or many handguns not on the Roster and bring them into the state. *

Any California resident can transfer a non-Roster handgun to another California resident using Private Party Transfer. That has to happen at an FFL dealer, but the Roster does not apply to PPT.*

Inherited guns and intra-family (within California only) transfers – which do not use FFLs – are exempt from being on the Roster. Out of state to CA intra-family _gifts_ are also exempt from the Roster, even though they must go through an FFL.

Falling off the Roster does not make handguns illegal and certainly does not make them unsafe in any meaningful usage of the term.
*
Why can’t I buy ‘gun x’, not on the Roster, from Joe Smith, or even Joe Smith, FFL, when those folks are out of state?*
Federal law requires interstate transfer to go to an FFL in the receiver’s state. [18 USC 922 (a)(3) and (a)(5)] If you live in California, you can’t receive a handgun from out of state unless you have an FFL – and an FFL cannot sell a non-Roster gun to a non-LEO.
*
What guns do NOT have to be on the Roster?*
Firearms listed as *curios or relics,* as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations. A list of Olympic target pistols, and

Quote:
12133. (a) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-action revolver that has at least a 5-cartridge capacity with a barrel length of not less than three inches, and meets any of the following specifications:
(1) Was originally manufactured prior to 1900 and is a *curio or relic, as defined in Section 478.11 of Title 27 of the Code of Federal Regulations.*
(2) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least 71/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.
(3) Has an overall length measured parallel to the barrel of at least 71/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled and that is currently approved for importation into the United States pursuant to the provisions of paragraph (3) of subsection (d) of Section 925 of Title 18 of the United States Code.

(b) The provisions of this chapter shall not apply to a single-shot pistol with a barrel length of not less than six inches and that has an overall length of at least 101/2 inches when the handle, frame or receiver, and barrel are assembled.
*
Why is the ‘blue’ one on the Roster, and the ‘stainless’ one not?*
Manufacturer’s choice. Every model sold by FFLs in California must be on the Roster and paid for, every year.

A manufacturer can save testing fees by certifying that one gun is different from another only in ‘minor’ attributes
Quote:
12131.5. (a) A firearm shall be deemed to satisfy the requirements of subdivision (a) of Section 12131 if another firearm made by the same manufacturer is already listed and the unlisted firearm differs from the listed firearm only in one or more of the following features:
(1) Finish, including, but not limited to, bluing, chrome-plating, oiling, or engraving.
(2) The material from which the grips are made.
(3) The shape or texture of the grips, so long as the difference in grip shape or texture does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.
(4) Any other purely cosmetic feature that does not in any way alter the dimensions, material, linkage, or functioning of the magazine well, the barrel, the chamber, or any of the components of the firing mechanism of the firearm.
*but even those models must be added to the Roster.*
*
Who’s responsible for this SNAFU?*It was SB15, in December of 1998 that started it.The bill went into effect January, 2001. The author was Senator Richard G. Polanco (D-Los Angeles). That bill created PC 12125. 

There have been two major modifications since then: Senator Scott’s 2003 SB 489 for loaded chamber indicator/magazine disconnect, and Assembly Member Feuer’s 2007 AB 1471, microstamping.




To give you an idea how fucking stupid this shit is:

Most people know what the HK USP pistol is. What you may not know is the variants of the fire control system. Variant 1 is DA/SA with safety on the left for a right handed shooter. Variant 2 is DA/SA with safety on the right for a lefty.

EVERYTHING ABOUT THE PISTOL IS EXACTLY THE SAME, there is no functional change.

Variant 1 is legal, variant 2 is NOT, in california.

Even better, it's only legal with a steel slide. Stainless with literally no functional change to the weapons design AT ALL? Illegal.  

It costs manufacturers and importers ONLY, $200 a year to keep EACH VARIANT ON THE LIST. Certification costs them 3 weapons, ammunition for firing, and $200 for EACH VARIANT.

It costs $4,400 a year for HK to be able to sell just 22 of the pistols they manufacture, in cali. Certification, going off retail prices cost them >$60,000. For 22 pistols. 

That's not even touching all the other firearms retardation in that state regarding long guns, transport, CCW or lack thereof, etc.


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## Ranger Psych (Aug 17, 2014)

The only reason I even know all this is because I live in Nevada, and I have to conciously limit my travel into CA because I only own one weapon that's legal in california.

That weapon is my 870, and that's even pushing it since it's a home defense model with an extended tube mag, plus it's black and looks evil so it gives prosecutors in that state erections.


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## policemedic (Aug 18, 2014)

Fuck California ;)


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## AWP (Aug 18, 2014)

Could we trade CA with the Canadians for British Columbia or...something? 6 bison? Box of crackers? A time share in Newfoundland?

In all honesty, I had no idea CA gun laws were THAT stupid. Stupid, sure, but THAT level of stupid?

And people make fun of FL?


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## Ranger Psych (Aug 18, 2014)

Yeah. I'll go further:

Model   Gun Type   Barrel Length   Caliber   Exp Date
Comp USP40 V1 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.58" .40 S&W 12/31/2014
Comp USP45 V1 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.8" .45 ACP 12/31/2014
Comp USP9 V1 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.58" 9mm 12/31/2014
P2000 SK-V3 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.3" .40 S&W 10/24/2014
P2000 SK-V3 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.3" 9mm 3/6/2015
P2000-V2 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.66" .40 S&W 6/9/2015
P2000-V2 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.66" 9mm 2/2/2015
P2000-V3 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.77" .40 S&W 5/10/2015
P2000-V3 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.65" 9mm 5/10/2015
P2000SK-V2 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.28" .40 S&W 6/9/2015
P2000SK-V2 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.28" 9mm 6/9/2015
USP 40 Exp.V9 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 5.20" .40 S&W 12/31/2014
USP 45 Elite / Steel, Polymer Pistol 6.2" .45 ACP 5/10/2015
USP 45 Exp.V1 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 5.20" .45 ACP 12/31/2014
USP Comp 40 Stnls V1 / Stainless Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.58" .40 S&W 4/20/2015
USP Comp 45 Stnls V1 / Stainless Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.80" .45 ACP 4/20/2015
USP Comp 9 Stnls V1 / Stainless Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.58" 9mm 4/20/2015
USP V7 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.25" 9mm 3/6/2015
USP40, V1 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.25" .40 S&W 12/31/2014
USP40C-LEM / Steel, Polymer Pistol 3.58" .40 S&W 2/20/2015
USP45, V1 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.41" .45 ACP 12/31/2014
USP9, V1 / Steel, Polymer Pistol 4.25" 9mm 12/31/2014

These are the HK's that are legal in CA.

The slide's features/functionality/parts are exactly the same, the only difference is the material. They certify them separately.

Here's HK fire control variants:

Variants 1 and 2 (double action/single action, decocking and safety lever)
Variants 1 (lever on left) and 2 (lever on right) allow the user to carry the pistol in a single-action mode (cocked and locked) with the manual safety engaged. This same pistol, without modification, can be carried in double-action mode, with or without the manual safety engaged, and with the benefit of a decocking lever.
Variants 3 and 4 (double action/single action, decocking lever, but no safety)
Variants 3 (lever on left) and 4 (lever on right) provide the user with a frame-mounted decocking lever that does not have the "safe" position. This combination only allows the hammer to be lowered from SA position to DA position. It does not provide the "safe" position to prevent the pistol from firing when the trigger is pulled.
Variants 5 and 6 (double action only, with safety lever)
For the double action only user, variants 5 (lever on left), 6 (lever on right), and of the USP operate as double action only pistols with a bobbed hammer always returning to the DA position (forward) after each shot is fired. To fire each shot, the trigger must be pulled through the smooth DA trigger pull. Variants 5 and 6 have a manual safety lever.
Variant 7 (double action only, no control lever)
No control lever is provided on variant 7.
Variant 8 Never produced.
Variants 9 and 10 (double action/single action, safety lever, but no decocking)
Variants 9 (lever on left) and 10 (lever on right) allow the shooter to carry the pistol in a single-action mode (cocked and locked) with the manual safety engaged. This same pistol, without modification, can be carried in double-action mode (hammer down), with or without the manual safety engaged. The double action mode offers a second strike/double action capability in case of a misfire. The control lever has no decocking function on variants 9 and 10 so one would have to carefully lower the hammer manually (or keep the safety on, remove the magazine, and eject any round in the chamber before lowering the hammer).
LEM (Law Enforcement Modification) Trigger (aka: Combat Defense Action)
Developed especially for the U.S. government, the Law Enforcement Modification (or LEM for short), is a USP DAO (Double-Action Only) model with a unique trigger mechanism. This mechanism improves the double action trigger performance and reduces the weight of the DAO trigger pull to 7.5–8.5 pounds-force (33–38 N), uses a stronger hammer spring, and shortens the trigger reset. Aside from the LEM mechanism, it is identical to the USP Variant 7 (DAO) model.


For my Expert, it's literally a different piece of sheet metal that controls where your selector can go and it just slides over the selector to change between V9 and V1. Put the V9 plate on it so I can't decock it? Illegal. 

Yep, they're full fucking retard there. We won't even go into the whole weapons confiscation routine they're working right now.


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## Ranger Psych (Aug 18, 2014)

Oh, let's make it awesome

buy a Standard capacity pistol magazine for that glock 19 in NV
Drive home to CA

you're a felon.

We actually had a CA F&G dude try to buy face to face mags for his carry gun out of state on a NV guns group on Facebook. We laughed him back to his failed state.


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## Ranger Psych (Aug 18, 2014)

http://americanhandgunner.com/exclusive-web-extra-not-safe/

http://www.claytoncramer.com/popular/CaliforniaLegalHandguns.PDF

here's the fantastic testing they go through.


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## policemedic (Aug 18, 2014)

Looking at that nonsense it makes me wish more manufacturers had the balls to do what Barrett did.


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## AWP (Aug 18, 2014)

No wonder the Steel Shooting guys moved out of CA after being there for...ever I think.


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## Ranger Psych (Aug 18, 2014)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Awesome, thanks for the response.  I'm leaning towards a G17 or G19 (based on a few of yall's advice, coupled with the proper rounds based on what the Troll and a few others have suggested) through Glock's blue label program.  My next decision is do I buy in AZ to avoid the fucking hassle here in CA, transport it here and just register it or jump through all the hoops and red tape to buy here in CA?  I still regret the day I sold my G22 and USP 40.




SO, In closing:

If you're going to get a new gun, you need to buy it at an FFL IN STATE or TRANSFER IT THROUGH A FFL IN STATE if you want to retain your rectal sphincter tension.

That weapon may end up having to have more controls than it was originally designed for, and it will have a restricted capacity magazine.

Failing to do so will earn you lots of face time with Bubba or Jaquin depending on if it's a Federal case or State case that you lose on.

A 4187 is easier, smarter, and cheaper to boot.


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## Dame (Aug 18, 2014)

Out of both curiosity and the need to remind myself that staying in NV was a good choice, what (if anything) did you have to do to bring your firearms from AK to NV?


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## medicchick (Aug 18, 2014)

Dame said:


> Out of both curiosity and the need to remind myself that staying in NV was a good choice, what (if anything) did you have to do to bring your firearms from AK to NV?


We shipped them all to an FFL here in town, Canada doesn't like most of them either.  As it was we lost all the AR mags (no longer even have that so meh) and all the 12 round HK ones because we didn't know the empty mags with no weapon in sight weren't allowed either.  We could have brought my 454, maybe the 7mm we had  and the shotguns but it's a bunch of paperwork and headache we didn't want.


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## Ranger Psych (Aug 18, 2014)

Lost *SOME* of the AR mags, and SOME of the HK mags, primarily due to the vibe I was getting from the customs chick where it just felt like "give and get or dump your shit" was the name of the game.

So, 7 in-plastic AR mags and 3 HK mags went into the pockets of canadian customs.  That was just what was easily accessible, I figured I'd rifle through that and make it look like we were organized in lieu of having to dump/sort through everything since... well, we had some gun shit in every box out of every room.  Cleaning kits in kitchen supplies, Brass in the bedroom, Shotshells in the kids stuff, CLP in bathroom supplies.... yeah, shit was everywhere... and the fuck if I was going to fight that fight, I'll just grab out of the primary box and they can have fun with their paperwork going OOO WE GOT THE EVIL MAGS OFF THE WARMONGER AMERICANS WE DID GUD TODAY GUYZ

Even better when we were coming across the US border from in Canada. First of all, half the damn crossings close at night, so we hit 2 crossings before we finally found one that was open. Then, the fat-headed douche nozzle with a badge was trying to give me a ration of shit about all sorts of stuff. I flat out told him that I didn't give a flying fuck if he did the swedish chef to my entire truck, trailer, and blazer because I'd sit there with a chew in while he packed it all up for one, second of all he would be wasting his time since everything we had was legal in the US, and last but not least even if he did dump my shit the fucking mission would be complete because WE WOULD BE INSIDE THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AGAIN which was the whole point of the move THROUGH Canada.

grumble grumble free to go grumble was the result of that conversation.  I guess after dealing with me, they wanted nothing to do with whatever would marry a prick like that and pretty much waved MC through with a minimum of fanfare.


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## Ranger Psych (Aug 18, 2014)

In retrospect, it'd have been absolutely hilarious knowing that whole goatrodeo beforehand and then stopping at the American customs side... give them all the mags with the caveat that they hand one each out to the next however many people that are US Citizens with a CCW that come through. 

"Welcome to Alaska *hands an AR mag* Have a nice day!"


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 18, 2014)

So I went back and re-read the info I originally found and it applies only to guns already owned before moving to CA, as someone pointed out.  I'd much rather go through all the non sense to do this right vice ending up on the shower floor Ameican History X style.
Thanks for all the additional information and fuck CA.


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## Dame (Aug 18, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> In retrospect, it'd have been absolutely hilarious knowing that whole goatrodeo beforehand and then stopping at the American customs side... give them all the mags with the caveat that they hand one each out to the next however many people that are US Citizens with a CCW that come through.
> "Welcome to Alaska *hands an AR mag* Have a nice day!"



Holy shit. Please tell me all of it would have been perfectly legal with no hassles in NV. When I moved here some 20-odd years ago we drove from CA with all our weapons, ammo, etc. After we'd settled in and unpacked we went to the cop shop to ask what we had to do. Pretty much nut'n. I'm guessing that's changed.


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## Ranger Psych (Aug 18, 2014)

Canada's gun laws aren't HORRIBLE, but they're honestly on par with the east coast and california in some regards.

All the stuff I have is legal here. There's no stupidity yet, although the electorate and population supporting them from Reno and Vegas don't help anything at the federal level. State level, they're generally much more realistic about things.  Where I'm at? Ehh, let's just say that if suddenly the state went full retard to where carry went to LEO only, the Sheriff's got ways around it planned.   OC's not a regular thing, but it's not odd, either.


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## surgicalcric (Aug 18, 2014)

I am picking up what you are saying RP and MC; I misread MC's original post on the topic.

That said, that all exists outside the scope of military assignments.

My HOR has stayed SC for tax purposes (because I don't pay state income tax in SC) but with assignment orders in varying states I have been able to purchase firearms, including pistols in North Carolina, Maryland, and Florida now. 

http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf
page 135



			
				27 CFR 178.124: FIREARMS 
TRANSACTION RECORD said:
			
		

> Licensees may accept a combination of valid government-issued documents to satisfy the identification document requirements of the Brady Act. The required valid government-issued photo identification document bearing the name, photograph, and date of birth of the transferee may be supplemented by another valid, government-issued document showing the transferee's residence address. A member of the Armed Forces on active duty is a resident of the State in which his or her permanent duty station is located, and may satisfy the identification document requirement by presenting his or her military identification card along with official orders showing
> that his or her permanent duty station is within the State where the licensed premises are located.


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## medicchick (Aug 18, 2014)

surgicalcric said:


> I am picking up what you are saying RP and MC; I misread MC's original post on the topic.
> 
> That said, that all exists outside the scope of military assignments.
> 
> ...



That's why I said HOR doesn't really matter, laws apply to the state you reside/are stationed (if the same, looking at you Ft Benning) in.  RP had Nevada for HOR but we bought plenty of guns in AK when he was stationed there and after he got out and we stayed.  I always advise people to know their local state laws, I know CA only because they are so close people drive over and try to buy gun stuff that isn't legal there and transport it back.


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 23, 2014)

@Ranger Psych , heard a guy I work with today talking about picking up a .357 while he's on vacation in NV this coming week and flying it back with him when he returns.  Alarms and red flags start going off in my head because of the last 2 pages of this thread...

Me: Dude, don't do it.  You're talking felony type shit if/when you get caught transporting firearms across state lines the way you're talking about doing it.  I got into this same discussion regarding doing the same thing from AZ to CA.  
Him:  I talked to TSA, airlines, they said it's cool as long as the pistol is transported in acceptable case, blah, blah.
Me: Not the point.  Purchasing a firearm out of state and then transporting it across state lines is illegal.  The TSA will be the least of your worries.  Look, here's the web pages I was sent to on this forum.  (the 2 Wiki sites MC sent me to that flesh out the laws regarding interstate transfer)
Him: So, I called a local FFL over lunch and he said that since I'm Military and have a NV ID, I'm good.  The law doesn't say Military folks can't do it, so that makes a loop hole.
At this point, I seriously gave him this look:  :-/
Me: You're putting a lot of trust in something that an FFL said even though the law states "any person" and that's all encompassing, Mil, civi, HoR, out of state, doesn't matter.  

I knew it was a lost cause at that point.  So, I just sent him a text that basically said: To legally own your firearm in CA, it will have to be registered with the state.  To register the firearm, you're going to have to provide purchase paperwork.  You better hope the guy at the random gun shop was right when you tell the state you did things the way you did without going through an FFL...


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## pardus (Sep 24, 2014)

^ big boy's rules...


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 24, 2014)

pardus said:


> ^ big boy's rules...


Yep.  I hope I was able to put enough doubt in his mind to cause him to rethink.  He asked me if I was going to buy in AZ, I said there was no chance after learning what I have about the laws.  And if I do, it's going to be strictly through an FFL.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 24, 2014)

http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/f...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


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## DA SWO (Sep 24, 2014)

SkrewzLoose said:


> @Ranger Psych , heard a guy I work with today talking about picking up a .357 while he's on vacation in NV this coming week and flying it back with him when he returns.  Alarms and red flags start going off in my head because of the last 2 pages of this thread...
> 
> Me: Dude, don't do it.  You're talking felony type shit if/when you get caught transporting firearms across state lines the way you're talking about doing it.  I got into this same discussion regarding doing the same thing from AZ to CA.
> Him:  I talked to TSA, airlines, they said it's cool as long as the pistol is transported in acceptable case, blah, blah.
> ...


Where does he plan on storing his weapon?


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 24, 2014)

In his home.

I had someone tell me this morning that AD Military makes us licensed importers...  :-/:wall:


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## BloodStripe (Sep 24, 2014)

Edit: Just saw you are talking about Commieornia

"A person may only acquire a firearm within the person’s own
State, except that he or she may purchase or otherwise acquire
a rifle or shotgun, in person, at a licensee's premises in any
State, provided the sale complies with State laws applicable
in the State of sale and the State where the purchaser
resides*.*"


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## 0699 (Sep 24, 2014)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Him: So, I called a local FFL over lunch and he said that since I'm Military and have a NV ID, I'm good.  The law doesn't say Military folks can't do it, so that makes a loop hole.


 
The California thing being completely seperate, it's my understanding that military folks do fall into a different category.  They are allowed to buy handguns in their home state (apparently NV for the guy you're talking about) and in the state in which they're stationed, as long as they have orders permenantly assigning them to that state.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 24, 2014)

http://wiki.calgunsfoundation.org/index.php/Transferring_firearms_Interstate


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## BloodStripe (Sep 24, 2014)

0699 said:


> The California thing being completely seperate, it's my understanding that military folks do all into a different category.  They are allowed to buy handguns in their home state (apparently NV for the guy you're talking about) and in the state in which they're stationed, as long as they have orders permenantly assigning them to that state.



So wouldn't that make you a "resident" then of the state you are stationed in? Meaning he would have to comply with California state law?


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## 0699 (Sep 24, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> So wouldn't that make you a "resident" then of the state you are stationed in? Meaning he would have to comply with California state law?


 
I'm not referring to his ability to take a handgun into California, just his ability to buy a handgun in two different states, unlike the majority of Americans who can only buy a handgun in their state of residence.  Most Americans, if you are a resident of say North Carolina, you can only buy handguns in NC.  But if you are a NC resident, in the military, and stationed in VA, then you could buy a handgun in either NC or VA.

Since I escaped California, I have paid little to no attention to the changes in their law.


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## DA SWO (Sep 24, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> So wouldn't that make you a "resident" then of the state you are stationed in? Meaning he would have to comply with California state law?


No, he is a Nevada Resident with a domicile in California, per the US Supreme Court.


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 24, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://looserounds.com/2014/09/21/f...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


^^^^^
Great article. Thanks for posting it.


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 24, 2014)

That's just it, the law doesn't say anything about Military exemptions.  But people say, "oh Military falls into XYZ category" but no one can provide any black & white evidence.  As someone said before, BBR apply.  If you're going to do something like this, you better know the laws, caveats and repercussions for your actions.


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## policemedic (Sep 24, 2014)

policemedic said:


> What's with the hypothetical business?
> 
> You're wrong about the shotgun, particularly with modern loads like Federal Tactical buckshot.  If I have time I'll post targets shot with that load through an 870 SBS at various distances.


 
I know, necroposting...but I never posted the pictures I said I would.  So, without further adieu...  Federal Tactical 00 Buckshot patterns.  I was going to drop another 20yd pattern above the 15, but figured the point was made.  The gun was a Remington 870.

Shotguns are perfectly accurate for self-defense.

View attachment 11670 View attachment 11671


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## Marine0311 (Sep 24, 2014)

SkrewzLoose said:


> That's just it, the law doesn't say anything about Military exemptions.  But people say, "oh Military falls into XYZ category" but no one can provide any black & white evidence.  As someone said before, BBR apply.  If you're going to do something like this, you better know the laws, caveats and repercussions for your actions.



This is what burns my ass. I am a vet for veterans benefits but a civilian concerning firearms laws.


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