# Army needs a crisis response team



## goon175 (Sep 14, 2013)

This has got to be the dumbest thing I have ever seen. So the Army needs to be more prepared for crisis response in light of Benghazi? Kind of like the ARMY SF CIF team that was waiting for the word to go and respond in Benghazi? Or did they not count? 

And on a more broad scale, the Army needs a bigger crisis response capability because the 82nd and 173rd aren't already on a rotation to respond within hours, because the various SOCOM assets aren't already on a rapid deployment footing... I guess none of that counts? What a load of horse shit. 

http://www.armytimes.com/article/20130913/NEWS/309130032?utm_source=twitterfeed&utm_medium=twitter


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## Rapid (Sep 14, 2013)

Perhaps what the army really needs is to have what's already in place not be hamstrung so much. Creating more teams won't help if they'll still need to wait ages before a group of politicians decide whether they want to take a shit or get off the pot.


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## Ranger Psych (Sep 14, 2013)

Heaven forbid specific guidelines and autonomous function for covering ass... you know, like what happens as DEFCON goes up?


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## AWP (Sep 14, 2013)

If you look at his comments in a literal sense then they are rather stupid.

If you look at them from the perspective of a total package then they make sense. The Marine element described brings shooters, support, and aircraft under one command. Presumably they train together at some point for this mission and aren't an ad hoc gathering of Marines. The Marines can also bring organic assets to the fight that the Army can't like tankers or CAS if needed and they would all answer to the commander of that mission. I doubt the Army and AF have similar arrangements or any that could come together as quickly as the Marine package.


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## DA SWO (Sep 14, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> If you look at his comments in a literal sense then they are rather stupid.
> 
> If you look at them from the perspective of a total package then they make sense. The Marine element described brings shooters, support, and aircraft under one command. Presumably they train together at some point for this mission and aren't an ad hoc gathering of Marines. The Marines can also bring organic assets to the fight that the Army can't like tankers or CAS if needed and they would all answer to the commander of that mission. I doubt the Army and AF have similar arrangements or any that could come together as quickly as the Marine package.


The Marines take up to 6 months to bring those packages together, I think the Army/AF could do it too.

The author ignores the Army Quick Reaction units to make a non existent case, take one self deployable package and tout it as the latest/greatest thing.  Let's ignore the 4,000 sailors manning the ships the Marines are on, or being escorted by.

Then again, the person making the statement is an Admiral, who in all likelihood doesn't know what the Army brings to the fight.

The author ignores the quarterly Forced Entry exercise they do on Bragg (Think they dropped an entire Bde last time).

The author ignores the fact that the KC-130/MV-22 team can not self-deploy across the Pacific (i.e. Hawaii to Okimawa) without AF Tanker support, or refueling stops (unless trans-pacific means going to Alaska first)

The author ignores the fact that the KC-130/MV-22 team can not self deploy from Okinawa to the CentCom AOR (The Marines tried it with an AV-8 Squadron, didn't work real well).

Sadly, we are going to see a lot of legg wetting as the Army and Marines piss on each other proving who is better (wonder if the Author knows why Camp Rhino was named Rhino?).


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## amlove21 (Sep 14, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> I doubt the Army and AF have similar arrangements or any that could come together as quickly as the Marine package.



For ONCE, I get to say "nu uh! We do too!" 

It's called the Global Response Force, or GRF. It's a full team of PJs, airframes, SERE, comm, radio, support, weapons- all ready for a 24 hour move to any environment we would need (that we don't already have a presence.)When your unit is pulling GRF duty, you have a true alert team, on a set cycle, and it's regimented, not just an ad-hoc "who's here?" sort of thing. All ISU's are packed, no leave for alert teams, no kidding ready to go. I guess you could make the argument that is a very small or myopic example, but that't the specific joint need we provide in times like this. Sometimes you gotta drop some bombs, and everyone loves CSAR, soooooo....

When the air strikes kicked off in Libya, our GRF was there before the fighters and other associated units, ready to stand alert before the strike platforms. It's actually very well fitted and employed. 



goon175 said:


> So the Army needs to be more prepared for crisis response in light of Benghazi? Kind of like the ARMY SF CIF team that was waiting for the word to go and respond in Benghazi? Or did they not count?


Not only the CIF, but there was an entire "Embassy Response Force" ready (LOTS of Army Infantry dudes) a full 48 hours earlier than the CIF got to Africa. This happened when I was in HOA, and we worked closely with both teams. Your point is dead on, and it's exactly what I though of when I read this article. It seems like this guy has absolutely no clue what happens in the real world.


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## AWP (Sep 14, 2013)

Nice to know something's being done right for a change.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 14, 2013)

SOWT said:


> The Marines take up to 6 months to bring those packages together, I think the Army/AF could do it too.
> .



MAGTF's are organic task forces to the Marine division, they take as long as the boat takes to get there to "get there" def not six months.


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## 0699 (Sep 14, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> MAGTF's are organic task forces to the Marine division, they take as long as the boat takes to get there to "get there" def not six months.


 
Also, the MEUs are almost continuously at sea (excepting exercises) in the AO.  No need to fly resources in from CONUS for many smaller missions.


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## DA SWO (Sep 14, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> MAGTF's are organic task forces to the Marine division, they take as long as the boat takes to get there to "get there" def not six months.


.
They (the MEU)train up before getting on the boat.
They have validation exercises before going on the deployment.
They work with the Navy and some other services to make sure everyone knows each other abilities. 
You don't start training the day after you set sail.

0699- Do they still use the MEU(SOC) terminology, or did that go away with the creation of MARSOC?


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## TLDR20 (Sep 14, 2013)

SOWT said:


> .
> They (the MEU)train up before getting on the boat.
> They have validation exercises before going on the deployment.
> They work with the Navy and some other services to make sure everyone knows each other abilities.
> You don't start training the day after you set sail.



Right, but they are already on the water all over the globe... They are constantly going through train ups, or combat deployments. We have some of the most battle hardened dudes in the world floating right off every hotspot. The Army and Air Force are very far from having anything close to that capability.


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## DA SWO (Sep 14, 2013)

Rangers?  CIF? We no longer cover every hotspot, we have what 6 CBG and 2-3ARG's afloat.

State is lucky the folks running the military show can move assets before they actually need that NEO.

FWIW- I am content with the Marines doing most of the NEOs and leaving the really unexpected stuff to the Rangers and 82nd.


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## 0699 (Sep 14, 2013)

SOWT said:


> .
> They (the MEU)train up before getting on the boat.
> They have validation exercises before going on the deployment.
> They work with the Navy and some other services to make sure everyone knows each other abilities.
> ...


 
AFAIK, they do.  Been retired for a while now and don't keep up too well with what the boys are doing.  MARSOC is great for SOCOM, as it gives them more forces from which to draw, but really doesn't do much for Mother Corps.  We still have our battles to fight and require the ability to fight them.  Every ARG/MEU has the MSPF consisting of a mix of SEALs and Marines capable of performing a wide range of missions, both special operations and conventional.



SOWT said:


> Rangers?  CIF? We no longer cover every hotspot, we have what 6 CBG and 2-3ARG's afloat.
> 
> State is lucky the folks running the military show can move assets before they actually need that NEO.
> 
> FWIW- *I am content with the Marines doing most of the NEOs and leaving the really unexpected stuff to the Rangers and 82nd*.


 
Please define "unexpected stuff".  As I've observed, since 1980ish, MEUs have performed plenty of real-world ops.  Outside of OIF & OEF, I would expect the Corps has done more "unexpected stuff" than the Rangers and 82nd combined.


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## 0699 (Sep 14, 2013)

I've said for decades, starting as a young Marine sitting around drinking beer, that there is too much overlap between the Army and Marine Corps mission.  IMO, the Corps should focus on the immediate response type mission, brushfire operations and such, with MAGTFs organized around the MEUs and MEBs.  Division/wing/MLGs should be nothing but administrative units, responsible for training up the MEUs and MEBs.  The Army should focus on large-war type scenarios.  Neither service would have any interest in this as they each want a piece of the others "turf".


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## goon175 (Sep 14, 2013)

0699 said:


> AFAIK, they do.  Been retired for a while now and don't keep up too well with what the boys are doing.  MARSOC is great for SOCOM, as it gives them more forces from which to draw, but really doesn't do much for Mother Corps.  We still have our battles to fight and require the ability to fight them.  Every ARG/MEU has the MSPF consisting of a mix of SEALs and Marines capable of performing a wide range of missions, both special operations and conventional.
> 
> 
> 
> Please define "unexpected stuff".  As I've observed, since 1980ish, MEUs have performed plenty of real-world ops.  Outside of OIF & OEF, I would expect the Corps has done more "unexpected stuff" than the Rangers and 82nd combined.



I believe they dropped the (SOC) from MEU(SOC) and it is just a MEU now, I read this somewhere and am having a hard time finding the source for it. Also, and maybe @Lycurgus could expand on this, but I don't think SEALs do floats anymore. 

I would be interested to see the difference in activity between the MEU(SOC)s and the 75th.


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## Teufel (Sep 14, 2013)

goon175 said:


> I believe they dropped the (SOC) from MEU(SOC) and it is just a MEU now, I read this somewhere and am having a hard time finding the source for it. Also, and maybe @Lycurgus could expand on this, but I don't think SEALs do floats anymore.
> 
> I would be interested to see the difference in activity between the MEU(SOC)s and the 75th.



So this happens to be the bane of my existence right now as an operations officer.  I can't get into details but let's just say that there is a lot of legwork that has to happen in the back rooms for this.  Lots of meetings.  Trust me.  They are going to have several land based crisis response units in the middle east and Africa and several MEUs floating around.  Everyone is trying to get into the crisis response gig.

They dropped the (SOC) back in 2006 when they stood up MARSOC.  Nothing else really changed.  They are floating with a Maritime Raid Force consisting of Force Recon Marines and Recon Battalion Marines with intel and EOD enablers.


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## goon175 (Sep 14, 2013)

Teufel said:


> So this happens to be the bane of my existence right now as an operations officer.  I can't get into details but let's just say that there is a lot of legwork that has to happen in the back rooms for this.  Lots of meetings.  Trust me.  They are going to have several land based crisis response units in the middle east and Africa and several MEUs floating around.  Everyone is trying to get into the crisis response gig.
> 
> They dropped the (SOC) back in 2006 when they stood up MARSOC.  Nothing else really changed.  They are floating with a Maritime Raid Force consisting of Force Recon Marines and Recon Battalion Marines with intel and EOD enablers.



So it's basically the same thing, they just dropped the (SOC)?


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## reed11b (Sep 14, 2013)

0699 said:


> I've said for decades, starting as a young Marine sitting around drinking beer, that there is too much overlap between the Army and Marine Corps mission.  IMO, the Corps should focus on the immediate response type mission, brushfire operations and such, with MAGTFs organized around the MEUs and MEBs.  Division/wing/MLGs should be nothing but administrative units, responsible for training up the MEUs and MEBs.  The Army should focus on large-war type scenarios.  Neither service would have any interest in this as they each want a piece of the others "turf".


With an inability to reach a significant portion of the planet due to the lack of airborne insertion capability, I disagree. Had Marines kept the Para-Marines and Marine Raiders post WWII and developed them further, then they probably would have the mission set you describe. I think the Army needs to learn from the MEU/MEB rotational readiness concept and stop trying to be (and failing at)100% manned and 100% trained all the time since anyone with a brain can tell you that it is not possible and you only end up with 100% units kinda manned and kinda trained. My $.02.
Reed


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## goon175 (Sep 14, 2013)

reed11b said:


> With an inability to reach a significant portion of the planet due to the lack of airborne insertion capability, I disagree. Had Marines kept the Para-Marines and Marine Raiders post WWII and developed them further, then they probably would have the mission set you describe. I think the Army needs to learn from the MEU/MEB rotational readiness concept and stop trying (failing at) to be 1005 manned and 100% trained all the time since anyone with a brain can tell you that it is not possible and you only end up with 100% units kinda manned and kinda trained. My $.02.
> Reed



All of the airborne units have a global readiness rotation, its not 100% all the time.


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## reed11b (Sep 14, 2013)

goon175 said:


> All of the airborne units have a global readiness rotation, its not 100% all the time.


Yes, but there is not really a training or manning build-up. ETS and PCS moves happen right up until and immediately after, Service members schooling is not stopped due to the rotations and specific Global readiness training is lacking (outside the 75th). All that happens is that we are put on short recall alert. I mean that Army Brigades need to be in a rotational train up and manning cycle, much like the MEU/MEBs.
Reed


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## Teufel (Sep 14, 2013)

goon175 said:


> So it's basically the same thing, they just dropped the (SOC)?



Well there was a year or two where there were no Force Recon Marines on the boat so they lost their SOC qual.  MARSOC was supposed to fill the gap but that didn't happen (the TSOC just pulled them to answer other TSOC requirements; they didn't see any point to a bunch of SOF guys sitting on a boat twiddling their thumbs and jacking steel).  When they brought back the Force Recon platoons on the MEU they never put the (SOC) back on.  Aside from that not much has changed.

A little trivia: the MEU who responded to the capture of the Maerks Alabama didn't have a Force Recon platoon so as everyone remembers the SEALs came in and rescued Captain Phillips.  This made the Marine Corps realize that getting rid of Force Recon was a bad idea and triggered their return to the MEUs.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 14, 2013)

Teufel said:


> Well there was a year or two where there were no Force Recon Marines on the boat so they lost their SOC qual.  MARSOC was supposed to fill the gap but that didn't happen (the TSOC just pulled them to answer other TSOC requirements; they didn't see any point to a bunch of SOF guys sitting on a boat twiddling their thumbs and jacking steel).  When they brought back the Force Recon platoons on the MEU they never put the (SOC) back on.  Aside from that not much has changed.
> 
> A little trivia: the MEU who responded to the capture of the Maerks Alabama didn't have a Force Recon platoon so as everyone remembers the SEALs came in and rescued Captain Phillips.  This made the Marine Corps realize that getting rid of Force Recon was a bad idea and triggered their return to the MEUs.



A couple of my buddies just did a float last year with 2nd Force. Said it was the worst time of their lives.


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## goon175 (Sep 14, 2013)

Teufel said:


> Well there was a year or two where there were no Force Recon Marines on the boat so they lost their SOC qual.  MARSOC was supposed to fill the gap but that didn't happen (the TSOC just pulled them to answer other TSOC requirements; they didn't see any point to a bunch of SOF guys sitting on a boat twiddling their thumbs and jacking steel).  When they brought back the Force Recon platoons on the MEU they never put the (SOC) back on.  Aside from that not much has changed.
> 
> A little trivia: the MEU who responded to the capture of the Maerks Alabama didn't have a Force Recon platoon so as everyone remembers the SEALs came in and rescued Captain Phillips.  This made the Marine Corps realize that getting rid of Force Recon was a bad idea and triggered their return to the MEUs.



That is really interesting. Although, because it was a hostage situation, I think the SEAL SMU would have still been called in, even if their was a Force platoon available.


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## Lycurgus (Sep 14, 2013)

SEALs do not do ARG/MEUs anymore, and there is no plan for us to resume them.  I can't get into the details on here but there are crisis response teams with members from all braches of the military (particulary SOF) forward deployed.  The package this team can bring is significant and the response time is GREATLY reduced since they are already in the region.


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## Teufel (Sep 15, 2013)

goon175 said:


> That is really interesting. Although, because it was a hostage situation, I think the SEAL SMU would have still been called in, even if their was a Force platoon available.



I agree but it highlighted the deficiency.  Also some high ranking Marines feel otherwise.  They were butt hurt.


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## Teufel (Sep 15, 2013)

Lycurgus said:


> SEALs do not do ARG/MEUs anymore, and there is no plan for us to resume them.  I can't get into the details on here but there are crisis response teams with members from all braches of the military (particulary SOF) forward deployed.  The package this team can bring is significant and the response time is GREATLY reduced since they are already in the region.



This is what we are competing with.  I may have mentioned at a meeting that if anything goes down in the world that the guys Lycurgus mentioned will go deal with it unless it a MEU sized problem like a natural disaster or something.  You should have seen the look I received from some very senior officers.  They gave me the coloring book they issue at The Basic School and some crayons and told to get to coloring.


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## Brill (Sep 15, 2013)

goon175 said:


> ...they just dropped the (SOC)?



And grabbed their Glock!  (Couldn't let that one go.)


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## Lycurgus (Sep 15, 2013)

Teufel said:


> This is what we are competing with.  I may have mentioned at a meeting that if anything goes down in the world that the guys Lycurgus mentioned will go deal with it unless it a MEU sized problem like a natural disaster or something.  You should have seen the look I received from some very senior officers.  They gave me the coloring book they issue at The Basic School and some crayons and told to get to coloring.


 
Yeap, you are exactly right.  It might be a hard pill to swallow, but that's exactly the way it's gonna work out.  The USMC missed the bus on this one!


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## goon175 (Sep 15, 2013)

So, to the original link I posted, as we have all highlighted.... The good Admiral was absolutely ridiculous in his statements.


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## Teufel (Sep 15, 2013)

Lycurgus said:


> Yeap, you are exactly right.  It might be a hard pill to swallow, but that's exactly the way it's gonna work out.  The USMC missed the bus on this one!


Well there are some initiatives we are putting out to make the MEUs more relevant.  There could be a "crisis" that occurs that doesn't meet the threshold for SOCOM to act on.  I'm ok with small potatoes.  Or maybe just mil to mil engagement that is being gapped for lack of forces.  Some recon and MARSOC officers are trying to find ways to keep the MEUs (and the Marine Corps) relevant by finding work that needs to be done, even if it isn't sexy, and not competing for an already saturated field.  But hey what do I know, I haven't been to the war college.


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## Rabid Badger (Sep 16, 2013)

goon175 said:


> So, to the original link I posted, as we have all highlighted.... The good Admiral was absolutely ridiculous in his statements.


 in a word, yes. I had a great CIF response that went blabbity blah blah but deleted it. The leg-wetting was a great analogy.

The Admiral is fighting for dwindling dollars and is looking for a check writer at Congress level to agree with him.


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## Teufel (Sep 19, 2013)

Etype said:


> Don't forget that the combination of certain unclass terms or acronyms makes the conversation classified- specifically when a unit is one of the acronyms.  It's particularly touchy concerning units with out of the ordinary mission sets.
> 
> I'm not trying to be The OPSEC Nazi, just sayin'...


Obviously referring to USMC.  I will report myself to the G2 immediately!!


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## x SF med (Sep 19, 2013)

Etype said:


> Don't forget that the combination of certain unclass terms or acronyms makes the conversation classified- specifically when a unit is one of the acronyms.  It's particularly touchy concerning units with out of the ordinary mission sets.
> 
> I'm not trying to be The OPSEC Nazi, just sayin'...


 
What OPSEC?  and where are the Naht-zees...  We have the Jewish Bear to take care of the Naht-zees.  Or, was that the Hebrew Hammer...  whatever, we'll still kill Naht-zees.


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## Salt USMC (Sep 19, 2013)

Don't anger the purple dragon!


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 21, 2013)

x SF med said:


> What OPSEC?  and where are the Naht-zees...  We have the Jewish Bear to take care of the Naht-zees.  Or, was that the Hebrew Hammer...  whatever, we'll still kill Naht-zees.


The Bear Jew?
Great movie...


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