# The NFL, Kneeling, Ratings, and the Flag



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 23, 2017)




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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 24, 2017)

I


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## Centermass (Sep 24, 2017)

Once a Ranger, always a Ranger.

Steelers Alejandro Villanueva Stood Alone For National Anthem While His Entire Team Sat In Locker Room



RLTW


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## Poccington (Sep 24, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I am a long suffering NYG fan, and have been for decades. I have not watched a game simce the Super Bowl last year. When the owners, players and NFL recognize who rhey are, and where they are, I may watch a game just to see if they as still in clown shoes.. Until then, I have better things to do. The NFL player salaries are as outrageous as some of the behavior that is being displayed.
> 
> To pull a stunt like kneeling during our Nathional Anthem, but stand for the Brits is something I just don't get. *The NFL is a lauging stock of the entire world now.*
> 
> The NFL can go straight to hell as far as I am concerned.



With regards to the bold, based on the media coverage over in these parts... It's not the NFL who is considered a laughing stock, it's POTUS. He's calling for people to be sacked and has been roundly told in a polite fashion, that nobody cares what he wants.

It's also hard to listen to a man wax lyrical on Twitter about patriotism when he dodged the draft... I wonder if those pesky heel spurs are still acting up?


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## racing_kitty (Sep 24, 2017)

Poccington said:


> With regards to the bold, based on the media coverage over in these parts... It's not the NFL who is considered a laughing stock, it's POTUS. He's calling for people to be sacked and has been roundly told in a polite fashion, that nobody cares what he wants.
> 
> It's also hard to listen to a man wax lyrical on Twitter about patriotism when he dodged the draft... I wonder if those pesky heel spurs are still acting up?


Might I recommend embracing the healing power of "and." Acknowledging that POTUS has no business being on Twitter, given the rate at which he beclowns himself, and also acknowledging that most of those over privileged, wife beating, steroid abusing, overpaid, felonious primadonna fuckwits are throwing a temper tantrum on someone else's time are not mutually exclusive activities. 

I'll believe in their dedication to The Cause when they go out and protest with the filthy, unwashed masses, and get arrested for something other than DUI, beating their wives, or shooting someone for no good reason (to include themselves in a bar, like that one asshole a couple of years ago). Otherwise, I'll continue to believe their support will only last until their salaries dry up, or there's another season-ending lockout.


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## Salt USMC (Sep 24, 2017)

racing_kitty said:


> I'll believe in their dedication to The Cause when they go out and protest with the filthy, unwashed masses, and get arrested for something other than DUI, beating their wives, or shooting someone for no good reason (to include themselves in a bar, like that one asshole a couple of years ago). Otherwise, I'll continue to believe their support will only last until their salaries dry up, or there's another season-ending lockout.


To be fair to the guy that started this whole trend, Colin Kaepernick, he has arguably put a lot of his earnings on the line by continuing to protest. FiveThirtyEight did a pretty good analysis that concluded Kaepernick was not going going unsigned because, as some have argued, his performance had been declining but because of his protest activities.  Yet he still continues to take his activism to the field.  I think that says a lot about his dedication to the issue.


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 24, 2017)

.


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## policemedic (Sep 24, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> To be fair to the guy that started this whole trend, Colin Kaepernick, he has arguably put a lot of his earnings on the line by continuing to protest. FiveThirtyEight did a pretty good analysis that concluded Kaepernick was not going going unsigned because, as some have argued, his performance had been declining but because of his protest activities.  Yet he still continues to take his activism to the field.  I think that says a lot about his dedication to the issue.



Assuming he hires a decent financial manager, he won't have to work another day in his life.  Is he losing future income from the National Felons League?  Sure, but he's not going to starve and is set up for life better than all of us.

No sympathy.


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## policemedic (Sep 24, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Yeah, I get the same thing from The Farm. I'm the stand-alone conservative when I'm at home there. Perhaps this topic is more about politics than it is football. The reality is with the team owners. If Jerry Jones in Dallas says you stand up or you don't play, if you don't play, I don't pay, that decides some things.
> 
> Politics and political correctness have taken over and I'll be damned if I can figure out why, but that is what this is all about.
> 
> I've just said more about politics than I ever mean to.



Exactly right.

I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  If I owned a team, my guidance to my employees (note I didn't say players) would be clear: you will fucking stand respectfully for the anthem.  I'd fire anyone who didn't the instant the last note of the anthem was played.

They represent the team and its owner when they are on the clock.  The owners need to start exercising some leadership.


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## Salt USMC (Sep 24, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Assuming he hires a decent financial manager, he won't have to work another day in his life.  Is he losing future income from the National Felons League?  Sure, but he's not going to starve and is set up for life better than all of us.
> 
> No sympathy.


Sure, he's not going to be out starving in the street.  But most assuredly he's out hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars.  That's no small change even when you're an NFL star.  Moreover, what is the threshold for when one's financial sacrifice is actually meaningful?  @racing_kitty 's initial argument was that their level of protest was just superficial.  What is the standard?  Do they have to be facing eviction before we believe that they give a shit about their cause?


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## amlove21 (Sep 24, 2017)

Yeah, don't like it don't watch it. I am gonna sit this edition of the outrage carousel out.

The only thing I care about is not letting @AWP beat Off To Gay Porn and simultaneously take a strangle hold on first place in the SS FFL.


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## Dame (Sep 24, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Exactly right.
> 
> I've said it before, and I'll say it again.  If I owned a team, my guidance to my employees (note I didn't say players) would be clear: you will fucking stand respectfully for the anthem.  I'd fire anyone who didn't the instant the last note of the anthem was played.
> 
> They represent the team and its owner when they are on the clock.  The owners need to start exercising some leadership.


EXACTLY what I just said yesterday to the guy sitting across from me at lunch. He thought I was nuts or a Nazi or worse.


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## Salt USMC (Sep 24, 2017)

Some other things to consider: why do we play the national anthem at sporting events?  Why do we have the military there?


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## digrar (Sep 25, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> The NFL is a lauging stock of the entire world now.



Australia as a nation would televise and rabidly follow any competitive endeavor, be it two flies crawling up a wall or a competition between two turtles on their back trying to get on their feet.  But, the average person on the street wouldn't even be aware of the NFLs current issues, outside of the Superbowl, it's not followed that closely in our neck of the woods. Collectively we follow the NFL about as closely as you guys follow Aussie Rules.


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## racing_kitty (Sep 25, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> To be fair to the guy that started this whole trend, Colin Kaepernick, he has arguably put a lot of his earnings on the line by continuing to protest. FiveThirtyEight did a pretty good analysis that concluded Kaepernick was not going going unsigned because, as some have argued, his performance had been declining but because of his protest activities.  Yet he still continues to take his activism to the field.  I think that says a lot about his dedication to the issue.


I read the article. I came away with "he's not as mediocre as the other one-season wonders (*cough*Cam Newton*cough*)." Maybe so, and maybe this is because he's protesting. I won't discount that. 

However, he's dating a smoking hot leftist media celebrity girlfriend. Leftist women don't love men unless there's something in it for them; feminism won't allow it. I'll bet she maintains his lifestyle at the level to which he's become accustomed in exchange for her being able to say "I'm fucking the Rosa Parks of the NFL." Do you think she'd be slinging leg to him if he wasn't protesting? I'll go with "no."

I don't think he's losing as much as you think he is. He's got his convictions, and good for him for sticking to it. But I'm still skeptical.


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## Salt USMC (Sep 25, 2017)

Is it fair to characterize your position as, "His opinion doesn't matter because someone else convinced him of it?"

If so, I think that's very reductive.  Did his girlfriend influence his decision?  Probably, but I don't think it matters that his motivations are not necessarily 100% pure.  The guy put a lot on the line in order to make his protest.  For a while there, he was the only guy in the league taking a knee (or sitting) and invited scorn and public ridicule from pundits nationwide.  In spite of that, he continued to volunteer his time AND money to youth and advocacy organizations, even after he went unsigned.

Ultimately, it's impossible to say what influenced his decision.  Was it something that had been stewing in his mind for a while?  Did he never give it thought until his activist girlfriend threatened to pull a Lysistrata on him?  We don't know and we can't know.  It's far more productive, I say, to assume that the guy means what he says and argue about the issue on its own merits, instead of motivations.


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## DA SWO (Sep 25, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> Sure, he's not going to be out starving in the street.  But most assuredly he's out hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars.  That's no small change even when you're an NFL star.  Moreover, what is the threshold for when one's financial sacrifice is actually meaningful?  @racing_kitty 's initial argument was that their level of protest was just superficial.  What is the standard?  Do they have to be facing eviction before we believe that they give a shit about their cause?


They lost any support I might have generated for their "cause" last weekend.
NASCAR Pit Crews stand or get axed, I am happy with that.


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## Kraut783 (Sep 25, 2017)

At least one player has class....Steelers and Former Army Ranger Villaneuva.  The entire team stayed in the lockers during the National Anthem, except for him.

Well done!.


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## Devildoc (Sep 25, 2017)

racing_kitty said:


> I read the article. I came away with "he's not as mediocre as the other one-season wonders (*cough*Cam Newton*cough*)." Maybe so, and maybe this is because he's protesting. I won't discount that.
> 
> However, he's dating a smoking hot leftist media celebrity girlfriend. Leftist women don't love men unless there's something in it for them; feminism won't allow it. I'll bet she maintains his lifestyle at the level to which he's become accustomed in exchange for her being able to say "I'm fucking the Rosa Parks of the NFL." Do you think she'd be slinging leg to him if he wasn't protesting? I'll go with "no."
> 
> I don't think he's losing as much as you think he is. He's got his convictions, and good for him for sticking to it. But I'm still skeptical.



To be fair...Newton is not an elite QB, but he is no one-season wonder.  I can think of about 20 teams that would kill to have him.*

*Again to be fair, he is playing like utter dog shit right now.


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## racing_kitty (Sep 25, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> Is it fair to characterize your position as, "His opinion doesn't matter because someone else convinced him of it?"
> 
> If so, I think that's very reductive.  Did his girlfriend influence his decision?  Probably, but I don't think it matters that his motivations are not necessarily 100% pure.  The guy put a lot on the line in order to make his protest.  For a while there, he was the only guy in the league taking a knee (or sitting) and invited scorn and public ridicule from pundits nationwide.  In spite of that, he continued to volunteer his time AND money to youth and advocacy organizations, even after he went unsigned.
> 
> Ultimately, it's impossible to say what influenced his decision.  Was it something that had been stewing in his mind for a while?  Did he never give it thought until his activist girlfriend threatened to pull a Lysistrata on him?  We don't know and we can't know.  It's far more productive, I say, to assume that the guy means what he says and argue about the issue on its own merits, instead of motivations.


 Nowhere did I say his opinion didn’t matter, and you’re the one implying that a black man didn’t think up the idea for himself. I firmly believe the protest was his own idea. I ALSO firmly believe that his girlfriend wouldn’t stick around if he was just an unemployed QB. Either CK needed to land a QB slot, or he needed to remain edgy and relevant in the ever-changing flow of social justice hierarchy. She was NOT going to go all Tammy Wynette and “stand by [her] maaaaaaan,” because her love most likely comes with conditions. He’s at least smart enough to see that. 

As far as the overall issue, I think you’re well aware of what I do for volunteer work in the community. We could have discussions for days, but I’ve come to the conclusion that nobody wants a peaceful solution. I’ll leave it at that. Anything else is best left to PMs or other threads.


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## Salt USMC (Sep 25, 2017)

racing_kitty said:


> Nowhere did I say his opinion didn’t matter, and you’re the one implying that a black man didn’t think up the idea for himself. I firmly believe the protest was his own idea. I ALSO firmly believe that his girlfriend wouldn’t stick around if he was just an unemployed QB. Either CK needed to land a QB slot, or he needed to remain edgy and relevant in the ever-changing flow of social justice hierarchy. She was NOT going to go all Tammy Wynette and “stand by [her] maaaaaaan,” because her love most likely comes with conditions. He’s at least smart enough to see that.
> 
> As far as the overall issue, I think you’re well aware of what I do for volunteer work in the community. We could have discussions for days, but I’ve come to the conclusion that nobody wants a peaceful solution. I’ll leave it at that. Anything else is best left to PMs or other threads.


That's why I asked for an accurate characterization of your position.  Sorry, it was early and my groggy reading of your post sounded like a very common complaint I heard of Nessa Diab from last year.

But now that you've clarified...I don't really understand what point you're trying to make.


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## ThunderHorse (Sep 25, 2017)

I've said it before in this thread.  Kaepernick wasn't protesting anything when he was first caught with a pouty face on the bench after he'd lost his job to Gabbert.  He was just pouty.  Now being the well educated man he is, he thought quick on his feet and said hey I'm protesting this.  I'm now going to kneel.  And everyone who's so woke in this world believes him.  

Yet, when he started wearing Ernesto shirts and sang the praises of the Castro Ruz family when it comes to universal healthcare and literacy in Cuba.  When the media and world didn't wake up and say, hold the phone here, this guy is full horse shit shows how uneducated our populace is.


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## Dame (Sep 25, 2017)

A lot of people have pretty much written off the NFL for the rest of the season over this. People at work started conversations with, "Well, I'm done with the NFL for this year." One gal mentioned she called her cable/satellite company and cancelled her sports package and told them why.


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## Devildoc (Sep 25, 2017)

Dame said:


> A lot of people have pretty much written off the NFL for the rest of the season over this. People at work started conversations with, "Well, I'm done with the NFL for this year." One gal mentioned she called her cable/satellite company and cancelled her sports package and told them why.



To listen to the media 'those' people (admittedly I'm on the fence) are in the terribly small minority; yet, that's all I'm hearing/seeing on social media.  People seem to be walking.


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## Florida173 (Sep 25, 2017)

Dame said:


> A lot of people have pretty much written off the NFL for the rest of the season over this. People at work started conversations with, "Well, I'm done with the NFL for this year." One gal mentioned she called her cable/satellite company and cancelled her sports package and told them why.



I'm questioning the effectiveness of it. The NFL has been declining in ratings for a few years now. Here's a pretty good explanation from last year. 

A more compelling theory for the decline in NFL ratings

*• The election. *People have been so absorbed with Hillary vs. The Donald they just didn’t have the time or energy to … take a break and watch football. To which I say: Are you kidding? Who didn’t want three hours of distraction from that train wreck?

*• Colin Kaepernick. *Football fans are such hardened right-wingers that the sight of the 49ers quarterback and a handful of other black players protesting police violence is a deal breaker. You know, six guys “misbehaving” and it’s, “Screw the NFL.”

*• No Peyton Manning. *And no Tom Brady for the first few games of the season. These established stars are the main/only reason lifelong fans watch the games on TV. Right. Just like fans turned off their sets when Fran Tarkenton retired.

*• Glut. *The NFL decided Sundays weren’t enough omnipresence, and that the Disneys and CBSs of the world would pay fat fees for the rights to games on Thursdays, in addition to Sunday nights and Mondays. Even if you like candy, it tastes better if you binge on it only once a week, not every day.

*• Shaking down taxpayers. *All but the most blinkered get-a-life fans have grown restless with the way the NFL — one of the most profitable private enterprises in the country — has suckered local politicians into financing “public stadiums” for the league’s further enrichment. I like the smell of that one.

*• Constant bad publicity. *Locally, over the past 15 years, our beloved Vikings lead the league in arrests for DUI, domestic violence and on and on. And that’s just here. Nationally, “stars” like Pittsburgh’s Ben Roethlisberger, Tampa’s Jameis Winston have the kind of reputations for predatory sexual behavior mothers have warned their daughters about since time immemorial. And the picture isn’t a lot better with lesser-known players. Any fan with a conscience has a tough time cheering on a guy accused of rape … twice.

*• The NFL hates fun. *Seattle Seahawks star Richard Sherman (a Stanford guy who actually graduated) recently said: “The league isn't fun anymore. Every other league, you see the players have a good time. It's a game. This isn't politics. This isn't justice. This is entertainment. And they're no longer allowing the players to entertain. They're no longer allowing the players to show any kind of personality, any kind of uniqueness, any individuality. Because they want to control the product. They want to control the messaging, etc., etc.’" On the other hand, if you have an authoritarian streak and prefer your entertainment controlled by heavy-handed, military-like rules, the NFL is your game. 

• *Millennial tech heads. *Young fans aren’t umbilically linked to their 60-inch Vizios. They’re watching on other “devices,” which Nielsen hasn’t figured out a way to detect and survey. Never mind that the best guess from experts is that people actually_watching_ entire games on cell phones is in the hundred thousands, not the millions that would explain the ratings decline.

*• NFL RedZone*. The NFL’s coziness with fantasy betting has created a new generation of fans who care less about the strategies and drama of the game itself and more about the scoring highlights, which NFL RedZone compresses into a streaming highlight reel … without 200-300 commercials. On that latter point, we may be getting somewhere.


Things haven't changed all that much, but have player's salaries changed? There is currently $19 billion in active contracts and $863 million in free agents to players in the NFL.


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## DC (Sep 25, 2017)

As an X 49er fan this is my boycott trigger
Colin Kaepernick. Football fans are such hardened right-wingers that the sight of the 49ers quarterback and a handful of other black players protesting police violence is a deal breaker. You know, six guys “misbehaving” and it’s, “Screw the NFL.”

I always prefer the NHL with any and all rugby. Even 7s(🏉union mo betta)


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## ThunderHorse (Sep 25, 2017)

Jerry Jones just cost himself a lot of money.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 25, 2017)

Whatever don't watch.

Don't play fantasy football either.

Don't talk about the stuff you aren't watching, it is solved. We can go back to watching, and talking about football here.

"A lot" of people have stopped? Ratings may be down but enough people obviously watch for a team kneeling or sitting out to blow up Facebook. 

I'm proud of the players and what they did. I'm ashamed of our President and what he said.


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## DA SWO (Sep 25, 2017)

MODS/ADMINS
Can we break this into 2 threads, one about football and one about buffoonery?


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## Salt USMC (Sep 25, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> MODS/ADMINS
> Can we break this into 2 threads, one about football and one about buffoonery?


Good suggestion


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## AWP (Sep 25, 2017)

Not to be confused with discussing the games, teams, and players, here's our NFL controversy thread.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 25, 2017)

Stand up or get out.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 25, 2017)

AWP said:


> Not to be confused with discussing the games, teams, and players, here's our NFL controversy thread.



Thank you.


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## Kheenbish (Sep 25, 2017)

I don't think proud is the word that comes to mind when thinking about what they have done. 

 I believe they do have the right to stand, kneel, sit, ect during the anthem, but is that really the greatest form of protest these guys can come up with? Why can't they do something that isn't disrespectful, such as donating their money to inner cities or better training for police departments. 

 If having NFL players who are here for mine and everyone's entertainment disrespect the flag, anthem, and police is the answer to combating racism and social divide then honestly where is this country heading ?


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## TLDR20 (Sep 25, 2017)

Kheenbish said:


> I don't think proud is the word that comes to mind when thinking about what they have done.
> 
> I believe they do have the right to stand, kneel, sit, ect during the anthem, but is that really the greatest form of protest these guys can come up with? Why can't they do something that isn't disrespectful, such as donating their money to inner cities or better training for police departments.
> 
> If having NFL players who are here for mine and everyone's entertainment disrespect the flag, anthem, and police is the answer to combating racism and social divide then honestly where is this country heading ?



What is so disrespectful? Seriously? 

I wrote this elsewhere and I'll post it here again:

Seeing a lot of people posting about how this kneeling is anti-American, anti-veteran, and anti-military, I have to say this:

What does this has to do with veterans? I am proud to have served a country and upheld a constitution that allows for the protest to take place in the first place. I think my fellow veterans would or should say the same thing.

The armed forces and veterans are not the only ones represented by the anthem or the flag. It should represent all people, if some Americans feel it doesn't, it is their right to kneel, sit, or stay in the locker room. 

I think it is the very patriotic to stand for what you believe in to make America a better place for all of our citizens, even if I personally wouldn't participate in this form of protest. 

My friend David posted this and I think it applies to another aspect quite well:

"I shouldn't be surprised, but the hypocrisy demonstrated by the "Free speech" crowd is just baffling.

When student groups and society at large deem your words and ideas socially unacceptable, it's a precipitous assault on first amendment rights.  The first amendment is inviolable, sacrosanct, and we should be ashamed that we allow this to happen.

When the President of the United States, the chief executive of the nation, makes official statements on behalf of the US Government encouraging a private organization (the NFL) to curtail the first amendment rights of its employees, it's totally not a big deal."


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 25, 2017)

Glad we did this.  (Thread separation).  Come Sunday I just want to watch football  I'm getting too tired to be outraged by a player who wants to protest something by not standing up.  All I want to read about in the Football thread, is football.

If I were a betting man, (and I am I), all Trump did with that last blurb was make it safe...hell, even heroic, to pick up Kaepernick this season.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 25, 2017)

I like to think being an American means more than waving a flag on Sunday. I like to think being an American means having the courage to do what you feel is right, despite the outrage. Kneeling for the anthem is a hell of a lot less harmful than other forms of protest, some of which we have covered as naseum on this forum. 

If I see injustice I hope I stand up for my beliefs in the face of outrage. IMO as veterans we should be defending these actions, as they are a form of the free speech we swore to defend in our oath.


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## Kheenbish (Sep 25, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> What is so disrespectful? Seriously?
> 
> I wrote this elsewhere and I'll post it here again:
> 
> ...



I completely agree it is their right to not stand, doesn't make it right in any way though. It's also (I know these comparison don't exactly equal each other, but the base is there) in an individuals right to be a white supremacists, but that doesn't make it right either.

I'm not here to spout, "Oh everyone died for this flag, I've got buddies and whatnot",  we've all heard or read it before. I do believe the flag represents more than President Trump and more than veteran sacrifices. It's a symbol of this countries freedoms and so is the anthem. So to pick that one thing, that particular song to protest to me, is disrespectful to every American.

In the end, once again, do they need to pick sitting for the anthem as their platform to protest instead of something more beneficial? What is sitting out doing, because honestly it's creating more divide.

Shouldn't we rally together for America?


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## Salt USMC (Sep 25, 2017)

Kheenbish said:


> I don't think proud is the word that comes to mind when thinking about what they have done.
> 
> I believe they do have the right to stand, kneel, sit, ect during the anthem, but is that really the greatest form of protest these guys can come up with? Why can't they do something that isn't disrespectful, such as donating their money to inner cities or better training for police departments.
> 
> If having NFL players who are here for mine and everyone's entertainment disrespect the flag, anthem, and police is the answer to combating racism and social divide then honestly where is this country heading ?


Kaepernick actually donates a bunch of his time and money to youth programs while continuing his protest.

Look, America complains about violence from BLM, and protesters blocking traffic, and myriad other things that distract from the message.  People say, "Why can't you follow the example of MLK and protest peacefully?"  So NFL players go ahead and do that, and people still lose their minds.  It's literally the most peaceful form of protest and America still isn't good with it.  I mean, what good is a protest if it doesn't generate some measure of controversy?  What are black activists supposed to do?  Ask nicely?


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## policemedic (Sep 25, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> Some other things to consider: why do we play the national anthem at sporting events?  Why do we have the military there?



The anthem is played because it’s a large public gathering. 

The military presence? PR, nothing else. Given the league’s attitude the military should pull their support/presence.


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## Kheenbish (Sep 25, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> Kaepernick actually donates a bunch of his time and money to youth programs while continuing his protest.
> 
> Look, America complains about violence from BLM, and protesters blocking traffic, and myriad other things that distract from the message.  People say, "Why can't you follow the example of MLK and protest peacefully?"  So NFL players go ahead and do that, and people still lose their minds.  It's literally the most peaceful form and protest and America still isn't good with it.  I mean, what good is a protest if it doesn't generate some measure of controversy?  What are black activists supposed to do?  Ask nicely?



But Kaepernick decision to kneel, didn't really amount to anything? His decision to start a donation and do charity is what makes changes.


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## policemedic (Sep 25, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> Kaepernick actually donates a bunch of his time and money to youth programs while continuing his protest.
> 
> Look, America complains about violence from BLM, and protesters blocking traffic, and myriad other things that distract from the message.  People say, "Why can't you follow the example of MLK and protest peacefully?"  So NFL players go ahead and do that, and people still lose their minds.  It's literally the most peaceful form and protest and America still isn't good with it.  I mean, what good is a protest if it doesn't generate some measure of controversy?  What are black activists supposed to do?  Ask nicely?



They are free to protest. They aren’t free to do so on their employer’s time unless the employer supports their position.  In either case, fuck them.


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## policemedic (Sep 25, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> That's why I asked for an accurate characterization of your position.  Sorry, it was early and my groggy reading of your post sounded like a very common complaint I heard of Nessa Diab from last year.
> 
> But now that you've clarified...I don't really understand what point you're trying to make.



Her posts made perfect sense to me.


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## policemedic (Sep 25, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> Sure, he's not going to be out starving in the street.  But most assuredly he's out hundreds of thousands, if not millions of dollars.  That's no small change even when you're an NFL star.  Moreover, what is the threshold for when one's financial sacrifice is actually meaningful?  @racing_kitty 's initial argument was that their level of protest was just superficial.  What is the standard?  Do they have to be facing eviction before we believe that they give a shit about their cause?



What’s meaningful loss? That’s to be decided by the individual, certainly.   But when one needn’t work a day for the rest of their life, that fact can be factored into what is considered meaningful in my view. 

What’s the actual difference between 10 million and 100 million? Either amount allows one to live the life of Riley.


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## Il Duce (Sep 25, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> What is so disrespectful? Seriously?
> 
> I wrote this elsewhere and I'll post it here again:
> 
> ...



I thought this write-up was a good summary of the pro-protest position: 'To Donald Trump,' by Leland Melvin, former NASA Astronaut and NFL Player 

I think it's especially appropriate to quote the portion of the national anthem Francis Scott Key included in the original that we've since excised.  Symbols and history don't always mean the same thing to all people and it's kind of nuts to see the same folks arguing for how confederate monuments are not about slavery two weeks ago argue there's only one way to see the national anthem and anybody who doesn't is a dirtbag that dishonors all we fight for.


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## Gunz (Sep 25, 2017)

Don't play the national anthem at football games. The various renditions usually suck anyway. Just play the fuckin game.


----------



## Salt USMC (Sep 25, 2017)

Kheenbish said:


> But Kaepernick decision to kneel, didn't really amount to anything? His decision to start a donation and do charity is what makes changes.


I would argue that both accomplished change.  It's a matter of scope and immediacy.

The charity and donations create immediate change, albeit on a micro level.  

The protests, however, have added a prominent voice to the years-long national conversation about the nexus of race and policing in America.  I wouldn't doubt that there's probably quite a few people in America who didn't give a hoot about black activism until they saw Kaepernick take a stand (or knee, in this case).  In that case, the change he created was far, far broader although the effects are not felt immediately.  But change was still achieved, and that's what's important.


----------



## policemedic (Sep 25, 2017)

Il Duce said:


> I thought this write-up was a good summary of the pro-protest position: 'To Donald Trump,' by Leland Melvin, former NASA Astronaut and NFL Player
> 
> I think it's especially appropriate to quote the portion of the national anthem Francis Scott Key included in the original that we've since excised.  Symbols and history don't always mean the same thing to all people and it's kind of nuts to see the same folks arguing for how confederate monuments are not about slavery two weeks ago argue there's only one way to see the national anthem and anybody who doesn't is a dirtbag that dishonors all we fight for.



Do you think that if we adopted a new national anthem with different lyrics the protests would stop?

I posit it has nothing to do with the lyrics.


----------



## Salt USMC (Sep 25, 2017)

policemedic said:


> What’s meaningful loss? That’s to be decided by the individual, certainly.   But when one needn’t work a day for the rest of their life, that fact can be factored into what is considered meaningful in my view.
> 
> What’s the actual difference between 10 million and 100 million? Either amount allows one to live the life of Riley.


This is an astute point.  10 million means a lot to me, but probably not that much to an NFL superstar (okay, in all seriousness they probably value 10 million).  But let's also consider this: football isn't just Kaepernick's livelihood, it's his entire life.  He's been playing this since he was a kid, and it's basically defined his entire existence.  It probably sounds silly, but not being signed means that he's really lost that one thing in his life.  It's like if you absolutely loved your job in the military and wanted to stay in for forty years, but then you got kicked out without so much as a "Thanks". 

It's a superficial comparison, I know, but I don't think it's fair to say that Kaepernick just casually arrived at this decision with nothing on the line.


----------



## Kheenbish (Sep 25, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> I would argue that both accomplished change.  It's a matter of scope and immediacy.
> 
> The charity and donations create immediate change, albeit on a micro level.
> 
> The protests, however, have added a prominent voice to the years-long national conversation about the nexus of race and policing in America.  I wouldn't doubt that there's probably quite a few people in America who didn't give a hoot about black activism until they saw Kaepernick take a stand (or knee, in this case).  In that case, the change he created was far, far broader although the effects are not felt immediately.  But change was still achieved, and that's what's important.



I disagree, I think a great amount of individuals have no idea why he was kneeling or care. I believe more so it piggybacked on a trend that disrespecting the flag and anthem is the "cool" thing to do now that everyone's NFL heroes do it. Although I don't believe this is what was the initial intentions. 

I can't remember exactly where it occurred, but the football coach of 8-10 yrs old was having his kids kneel for the anthem, now is that peaceful protest too? 

I still don't believe sitting for the anthem was the correct platform for their protest, but I cannot say what is so my answer doesn't have too much backing.


----------



## Salt USMC (Sep 25, 2017)

Kheenbish said:


> I disagree, I think a great amount of individuals have no idea why he was kneeling or care.


What's the very first question you had when you heard about Kaepernick taking a knee?  I guarantee you most people had the exact same question in mind.

"Why's he doing that?"


----------



## Centermass (Sep 25, 2017)

Kheenbish said:


> I disagree, *I think a great amount of individuals have no idea why he was kneeling or care.* I believe more so it piggybacked on a trend that disrespecting the flag and anthem is the "cool" thing to do now that everyone's NFL heroes do it. Although I don't believe this is what was the initial intentions.
> 
> I can't remember exactly where it occurred, but the football coach of 8-10 yrs old was having his kids kneel for the anthem, now is that peaceful protest too?
> 
> I still don't believe sitting for the anthem was the correct platform for their protest, but I cannot say what is so my answer doesn't have too much backing.



Like "Hands up, don't shoot?" I was thinking the same thing.


----------



## CDG (Sep 25, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Don't play the national anthem at football games. The various renditions usually suck anyway. Just play the fuckin game.



I agree with this.  Football is still largely American players, but the other big sports (MLB, NHL, NBA) are more and more filled with players from other countries. Baseball and hockey especially, as they have been using foreign players for a lot longer, and at greater percentages.  So I think we can just enjoy the games without having to have the anthem played.  I would like to see professional sports leagues adopt a similar stance to the military when it comes to politics.  Your personal life is your personal life, but you won't advocate/protest for things while in uniform, or while claiming to represent a specific organization/service. 

As to the military presence, it's all about money and PR.  I'm sure there are some pretty high ranking individuals that enjoy some nice perks for keeping that train rolling.


----------



## Kheenbish (Sep 25, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> What's the very first question you had when you heard about Kaepernick taking a knee?  I guarantee you most people had the exact same question in mind.
> 
> "Why's he doing that?"


Honestly no, I didn't care. I had no idea who Kaepernick was, thought it was a fad. I only follow the Lions and how much money we saved this year to pay Stafford.


----------



## Salt USMC (Sep 25, 2017)

Kheenbish said:


> Honestly no, I didn't care. I had no idea who Kaepernick was, thought it was a fad. I only follow the Lions and how much money we saved this year to pay Stafford.


Sure, you may not have cared, but the litany in the last year of news items, editorials, pundit pieces, speeches, and tweets from the goddamn president of the united states show that a lot of people in America care.  It's not just a "trend."


----------



## policemedic (Sep 25, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> What's the very first question you had when you heard about Kaepernick taking a knee?  I guarantee you most people had the exact same question in mind.
> 
> "Why's he doing that?"



I thought it was clear why he was doing it. He’s an asshole.


----------



## Kheenbish (Sep 25, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> Sure, you may not have cared, but the litany in the last year of news items, editorials, pundit pieces, speeches, and tweets from the goddamn president of the united states show that a lot of people in America care





Salt USMC said:


> Sure, you may not have cared, but the litany in the last year of news items, editorials, pundit pieces, speeches, and tweets from the goddamn president of the united states show that a lot of people in America care



Well that brings me to another issue. The rise in taking an entertainers opinion, be it celebrity or professional athlete, like it's the word of God. America seems to be infatuated with the opinions of entertainers. 

Social media went crazy this past weekend over NFL players kneeling, positive or negative. Let's just forget about the rest of the world, the Steelers didn't even come out of the locker room. 

Seems this has all the ingredients to make Idiocracy, but people want to bitch about President Trump like they aren't the reason he's in office. (Not advocating that he's doing good job)


----------



## PCRWizard (Sep 25, 2017)

I always thought that kneeling during the anthem was a reasonably respectful way to protest. He's not yelling, holding anything up, turning away, or saying anything particularly unpatriotic. He's just quietly kneeling during the anthem. I always thought that it was a pretty mature and respectful way to protest. I'm curious as to others thoughts on this.


----------



## Centermass (Sep 25, 2017)

Either way, I'm done with the NFL. Between free agency and now all this. 

Goodell either doesn't know his own rule book, or doesn't care to know. Selective enforcement makes you look like hypocrite with no standards whatsoever. "I don't want to ruffle anybodies feathers, so I' just going to ignore it and maybe it'll just go away" (sic)    

Many here in America (And me personally) have always been attracted to pro sports, in whatever form they may be. Auto racing, golf, baseball etc. It's supposed to be enjoyable, like a way to wind down, kick back, relax and enjoy whatever venue it happens to be, whether live and in person, or on the TV. Inject politics into it and use that platform for your sounding board and as far as I'm concerned, you've ruined it, regardless which side of the fence it and you, happen to be.


----------



## policemedic (Sep 25, 2017)

PCRWizard said:


> I always thought that kneeling during the anthem was a reasonably respectful way to protest. He's not yelling, holding anything up, turning away, or saying anything particularly unpatriotic. He's just quietly kneeling during the anthem. I always thought that it was a pretty mature and respectful way to protest. I'm curious as to others thoughts on this.



I would suggest that anyone kneeling to protest a perceived slight to an ethnic group they belong to whilst making millions of dollars is more than a bit disingenuous. 

It’s wildly disrespectful to the nation that allows them to live like kings for chasing a ball down a grass field.


----------



## Il Duce (Sep 25, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Do you think that if we adopted a new national anthem with different lyrics the protests would stop?
> 
> I posit it has nothing to do with the lyrics.



We have a changed national anthem with different (less) lyrics.  His protest - if you believe him (which I do) - is about police brutality and inequality in the justice system in how black men are treated.  The point of the history of the anthem is not that changing it changes the protest - it's that the reverence, history, and import some place in the anthem in order to conclude these players are 'assholes', 'disrespectful', 'spitting on the military', or any of that shit is tragically misplaced.  Just because you see a symbol one way doesn't mean those with a different perspective, background, or ideology are obligated to see it the same way.


----------



## Il Duce (Sep 25, 2017)

policemedic said:


> I would suggest that anyone kneeling to protest a perceived slight to an ethnic group they belong to whilst making millions of dollars is more than a bit disingenuous.
> 
> It’s wildly disrespectful to the nation that allows them to live like kings for chasing a ball down a grass field.



What exactly makes them disingenuous?  Their wealth, their ethnic group, the 'perceived slight'?  I think being treated differently by the justice system, being murdered, and being brutalized by the police is more than a 'slight' - whether you think it's only 'perceived' or not.  I think that's more than a little disingenuous.


----------



## Salt USMC (Sep 25, 2017)

Centermass said:


> Either way, I'm done with the NFL. Between free agency and now all this.
> 
> Goodell either doesn't know his own rule book, or doesn't care to know. Selective enforcement makes you look like hypocrite with no standards whatsoever. "I don't want to ruffle anybodies feathers, so I' just going to ignore it and maybe it'll just go away" (sic)
> 
> Many here in America (And me personally) have always been attracted to pro sports, in whatever form they may be. Auto racing, golf, baseball etc. It's supposed to be enjoyable, like a way to wind down, kick back, relax and enjoy whatever venue it happens to be, whether live and in person, or on the TV. Inject politics into it and use that platform for your sounding board and as far as I'm concerned, you've ruined it, regardless which side of the fence it and you, happen to be.


So would you be good with taking out the anthem, the military salutes, and all the other plastic patriotism?  Those are, after all, inherently political.


----------



## Centermass (Sep 25, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> So would you be good with taking out the anthem, the military salutes, and all the other plastic patriotism?  Those are, after all, inherently political.



Plastic patriotism? Really?

Know why the Corps never change uniforms in design and scheme? It's called "Tradition." Same with the National Anthem.

I still still love this country, good times and bad, there's no place I'd rather be and know damn well, how thankful I'm not a TCN living in some God forsaken place resembling a hell hole, struggling just to get by and survive torment, hunger and strife.

Whatever man.


----------



## TLDR20 (Sep 25, 2017)

Centermass said:


> Either way, I'm done with the NFL. Between free agency and now all this.
> 
> Goodell either doesn't know his own rule book, or doesn't care to know. Selective enforcement makes you look like hypocrite with no standards whatsoever. "I don't want to ruffle anybodies feathers, so I' just going to ignore it and maybe it'll just go away" (sic)
> 
> Many here in America (And me personally) have always been attracted to pro sports, in whatever form they may be. Auto racing, golf, baseball etc. It's supposed to be enjoyable, like a way to wind down, kick back, relax and enjoy whatever venue it happens to be, whether live and in person, or on the TV. Inject politics into it and use that platform for your sounding board and as far as I'm concerned, you've ruined it, regardless which side of the fence it and you, happen to be.



What selective enforcement are you talking about? The meme about the rules stating that players had to stand on the sideline at attention for the anthem? That isn't exactly true.

FACT CHECK: Are NFL Players Required to Stand on the Field During the National Anthem?

At the end of the day the league is ran by the owners. The owners were on the sidelines supporting the players. So, I think the rulers of the league made their decision.


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## SaintKP (Sep 25, 2017)

I have to agree with TLDR, Dice, and Salt here. Like I said in my other post (I can't remember the thread), while I don't like the fact that they are protesting the flag. It is still their right as an American citizen to speak up and protest something they dont agree with. They're not rioting, causing damage or even burning the flag it's a silent and peaceful protest and they are well within their rights for free speech, and in my personal opinion they're being more American than our own president right now who is trying to silence them. 

We can argue the moral catalysts for the ones protesting all day and night whether it's genuine or not, but let's face it. They've brought even more attention to a very real problem in the United States right now and that's not taking a shot at LE either, we as a country have a ton of problems that need to be addressed before any real progress can be made. Not to mention the fact that we have fascists and communists/anarchists rioting in the streets and on campuses is disheartening to say the least. 

We need to find a compromise as a country before any progress can be made currently, but seeing how divided we are over simply just politics shows that, that is a long road ahead of us.


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## Centermass (Sep 26, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> What selective enforcement are you talking about? The meme about the rules stating that players had to stand on the sideline at attention for the anthem? That isn't exactly true.
> 
> FACT CHECK: Are NFL Players Required to Stand on the Field During the National Anthem?
> 
> At the end of the day the league is ran by the owners. The owners were on the sidelines supporting the players. So, I think the rulers of the league made their decision.



Snopes...what a joke.

Go back and re-read it. My post and the snopes article as well.

I never said anything about everyone standing at attention for the anthem.


----------



## TLDR20 (Sep 26, 2017)

Centermass said:


> Snopes...what a joke.
> 
> Go back and re-read it. My post and the snopes article as well.
> 
> I never said anything about everyone standing at attention for the anthem.



No, you didn't, you just said selective enforcement of the rules, you didn't specify which ones and I surmised from the topic of this thread that is what you were referring to.


----------



## amlove21 (Sep 26, 2017)

I personally don’t have the motivation to constantly police another thread where people feel so strongly about an issue that they can’t restrain themselves from being dicks to one another. So. 

Discuss all you’d like. Keep it civil. Stay on topic and off personal attacks. 

Those that can’t will take breaks from the thread or catch some points.


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## AWP (Sep 26, 2017)

The cynic in me loves how the controversy has replaced the intent when discussing the issue. Not just here, but everywhere.


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## amlove21 (Sep 26, 2017)

AWP said:


> The cynic in me loves how the controversy has replaced the intent when discussing the issue. Not just here, but everywhere.


Great way to describe it. The only thing people love more than choosing sides ‘these days’ is arguing their position and getting likes from like minded folks on social media. Doesn’t really foster an environment of free thinking and intellectual growth, just people getting adept at ad hom and jumping on a bandwagon ASAP.


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## Devildoc (Sep 26, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> ...To pull a stunt like kneeling during our Nathional Anthem, but stand for the Brits is something I just don't get. The NFL is a lauging stock of the entire world now.



What these overpriced toddlers fail to grasp is by standing for God Save the Queen, they are tacitly endorsing the same government that brought slavery and social/political oppression here to begin with.  These morons can't see past the end of their noses.


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## Devildoc (Sep 26, 2017)

Poccington said:


> With regards to the bold, based on the media coverage over in these parts... It's not the NFL who is considered a laughing stock, it's POTUS. He's calling for people to be sacked and has been roundly told in a polite fashion, that nobody cares what he wants.



The media is playing by the same playbook they used during the campaign, marginalizing Trump, dismissing his supporters, making fun of his base.  How'd that workout for the DNC/Clinton, and the US?

If you want to follow MSM, fine, but they have a very specific perspective on how this is playing out.  Meanwhile, social media and grassroots is showing otherwise.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Sep 26, 2017)

.


----------



## TLDR20 (Sep 26, 2017)




----------



## Isiah6:8 (Sep 26, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Is this where the Military steps in and stops supplying color guards for the start of each game?
> 
> Is this the time to save on $$$ for flyovers?
> 
> ...



1.  Yes
2.  Yes
3.  I would argue they are just a part of opening ceremonies, not integral.  Whatever looks best for the business is integral, this goes through cycles:  25 years ago they weren't bringing out troops at games for a standing O.  They will do whatever the masses want to see and think is great.
4.  Must keep the people entertained, that is good for business.


----------



## SpitfireV (Sep 26, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> What these overpriced toddlers fail to grasp is by standing for God Save the Queen, they are tacitly endorsing the same government that brought slavery and social/political oppression here to begin with.  These morons can't see past the end of their noses.



Absolute nonsense.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 26, 2017)

Irony is thick here.


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## Devildoc (Sep 26, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> Absolute nonsense.



Believe what you will.  But these guys, they are just hypocrites.  Why stand for GSTQ?  I guarantee none of them can link The Crown to 'Murca pre-1783.  They want to stand (kneel?  Sit?  Whatev...) to demonstrate against oppression, but show support to the same government that has been THE most oppressive in North America....

Edited to add....to be fair, although the owners allow them to do this (easy fix:  owners say no) and therefore have a "right", I think it's tasteless and hypocritical.  One of those things, just because they can doesn't mean they should.  I also call out the hypocrisy of the NFL _writ large_ who says they believe in unity but refuses to allow players to wear a freakin' decal in support of LE and the military. So, unity and community seems to be a transient definition.


----------



## TLDR20 (Sep 26, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> Believe what you will.  But these guys, they are just hypocrites.  Why stand for GSTQ?  I guarantee none of them can link The Crown to 'Murca pre-1783.  They want to stand (kneel?  Sit?  Whatev...) to demonstrate against oppression, but show support to the same government that has been THE most oppressive in North America....
> 
> Edited to add....to be fair, although the owners allow them to do this (easy fix:  owners say no) and therefore have a "right", I think it's tasteless and hypocritical.  One of those things, just because they can doesn't mean they should.  I also call out the hypocrisy of the NFL _writ large_ who says they believe in unity but refuses to allow players to wear a freakin' decal in support of LE and the military. So, unity and community seems to be a transient definition.



Are you serious right now? 

The kneeling is about current events. Police brutality, and the unfair treatment of blacks by police in America, currently. You really want to bring up the English from the 17th and 18th century?


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## Frank S. (Sep 26, 2017)

Oh, this thread... It's like season 7...


----------



## Devildoc (Sep 26, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Are you serious right now?
> 
> The kneeling is about current events. Police brutality, and the unfair treatment of blacks by police in America, currently. You really want to bring up the English from the 17th and 18th century?



I am serious in I don't believe _they_ know what the fuck they are kneeling, standing, or spinning for.  Before Trump tweeted what he did, most of those players were interested bystanders.  Now in the course of 96 hours, all of a sudden they are the mascots for the social martyrs brigade?  I don't think so.  

My point in bringing up kneeling for the National Anthem and standing for GSTQ is that it underscores their lack of knowledge of context or history and emphasizes the jump-on-the-bandwagon backlash that is going on right now.  Their knowledge of current events ends at whatever social media is telling them is important, the cause du jour.

I have become so fucking hardened by the whole thing that I see every single one of those people with an agenda, and it ain't police brutality.  They are in it for the limelight and PR, it's all about image.  If they were consistent with their values, why don't they leave the NFL, take their millions, start some foundation, and get involved.


----------



## Frank S. (Sep 26, 2017)

First I was like OMG but then WTF? This thread...


----------



## Lefty375 (Sep 26, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> I am serious in I don't believe _they_ know what the fuck they are kneeling, standing, or spinning for.  Before Trump tweeted what he did, most of those players were interested bystanders.  Now in the course of 96 hours, all of a sudden they are the mascots for the social martyrs brigade?  I don't think so.
> 
> My point in bringing up kneeling for the National Anthem and standing for GSTQ is that it underscores their lack of knowledge of context or history and emphasizes the jump-on-the-bandwagon backlash that is going on right now.  Their knowledge of current events ends at whatever social media is telling them is important, the cause du jour.
> 
> I have become so fucking hardened by the whole thing that I see every single one of those people with an agenda, and it ain't police brutality.  They are in it for the limelight and PR, it's all about image.  If they were consistent with their values, why don't they leave the NFL, take their millions, start some foundation, and get involved.



I enjoyed reading most of your post. I just want to point out that there are great philosophical arguments against doing exactly that -- leaving the NFL. For example, effective altruism would say that as players of the NFL, they should continue to make millions AND help/start a foundation or continue to give. If they stand for social justice, and the NFL protests got one of the most powerful people on the planet to tweet about them, then altruism would say they are doing the most good they can in their current position. I would argue that getting the President to take notice and use his platform to talk to the nation about the issue, IS getting involved.


----------



## Frank S. (Sep 26, 2017)

Lefty375 said:


> I enjoyed reading most of your post. I just want to point out that there are great philosophical arguments against doing exactly that -- leaving the NFL. For example, effective altruism would say that as players of the NFL, they should continue to make millions AND help/start a foundation or continue to give. If they stand for social justice, and the NFL protests got one of the most powerful people on the planet to tweet about them, then altruism would say they are doing the most good they can in their current position. I would argue that getting the President to take notice and use his platform to talk to the nation about the issue, IS getting involved.



Suddenly.
A cogent statement.


----------



## Blizzard (Sep 26, 2017)

So, this is the outrage-du-jour?    Literally everything has become political now.  I'll check back in another week or two to find out the latest issue to get worked up over, maybe it'll finally be one that actually matters and I care about - but somehow I doubt it.


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 26, 2017)

.


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## Devildoc (Sep 26, 2017)

Lefty375 said:


> I enjoyed reading most of your post. I just want to point out that there are great philosophical arguments against doing exactly that -- leaving the NFL. For example, effective altruism would say that as players of the NFL, they should continue to make millions AND help/start a foundation or continue to give. If they stand for social justice, and the NFL protests got one of the most powerful people on the planet to tweet about them, then altruism would say they are doing the most good they can in their current position. I would argue that getting the President to take notice and use his platform to talk to the nation about the issue, IS getting involved.



Great post, making me think.  The counter to this are people like Jason Brown, NFL's highest-pain center, stopped playing, bought a farm, teaches people how to farm, and gives food away.  Glen Coffee and Tillman, quit NFL to join the military.  I know there's more than one way to skin the proverbial cat to live out values in action, and I hope these players do put their money where their mouths are.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 26, 2017)

So we have a petty President that is annoyed by petty athletes.  That's not presidential.  But the evidence is pretty damn clear, every time you say a lie about him in specific regards to calling him a white supremacist, a Nazi, or a Klan member you're showing your ass.  Nazis, Klan Members and White supremacists hate a lot of people.  Including Jews.  His daughter is a Jew, Three of his grandchildren are jews.

So Jemele Hill, Steph Curry, and him are just a bunch of fuckwhits that need to get off air and actually do their job.  

Kaepernick is protesting something that you can't really back up with statistics.  Do you really think there's just a massive wave of cop shootings targeting one race?  Because I have the current data compiled by the Washington Post for 2017, did you know there was a war on Hispanics?  
The moment Kaepernick put on a Guevara shirt no one woke the fuck up, which is sad.  

What this idiocy has truly highlighted is that as Veterans we are not a homogenous group, some folks are cool, some folks are fired up.  I'm fired up because very few of these gazillionaires are actually doing anything to help change the problems.  Kaepernick put his money where his mouth is, and so far for him $1MM from his last contract is relatively significant.  LeBron James put down $41MM for Scholarships for Akron kids to attend Akron.


----------



## Frank S. (Sep 26, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> But the evidence is pretty damn clear, every time you say a lie about him in specific regards to calling him a white supremacist, a Nazi, or a Klan member you're showing your ass.  Nazis, Klan Members and White supremacists hate a lot of people.  Including Jews.  His daughter is a Jew, Three of his grandchildren are jews.



http://www.thewalkerstalkers.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/03/walking-dead-josh-mcdermitt.jpeg

I don't see that pragmatism borne from moral weakness excludes true sentiments of Supremacy, no matter how ill-defined.


----------



## amlove21 (Sep 26, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> ... LeBron James put down $41MM for Scholarships for Akron kids to attend Akron...


I will say this as a dude that grew up in/around Akron- Bron's contributions to that city will go down in history as some of the most truly caring in the history of professional athletes. That guy really cares about the city and those people deeply.


----------



## Serenity (Sep 26, 2017)

digrar said:


> Australia as a nation would televise and rabidly follow any competitive endeavor, be it two flies crawling up a wall or a competition between two turtles on their back trying to get on their feet.  But, the average person on the street wouldn't even be aware of the NFLs current issues, outside of the Superbowl, it's not followed that closely in our neck of the woods. Collectively we follow the NFL about as closely as you guys follow Aussie Rules.


As an Australian, I'd disagree with this in as far that people outside of the US not being aware of this NFL players vs Trump issue.  The things POTUS is doing is very much under the microscope of the world, so even I - who knows little about sports and politics - noticed this not kneeling to the flag business.  My husband who is a news hound had an opinion on the whole thing and we discussed it last night, and that's why I finally bothered to click on this thread.  So yeah, the mention of NFL does make me automatically not pay attention.  At the moment, I think people are closely following this North Korean crisis and when they run out of things to read (like me), they pick up on all this other stuff (like me).

On a side note:  It's quite shocking to me to have heard children in a playground yelling and talking of 'Trump'.  This was way back when he was recently elected.  Even my own kids did something similar.  Not sure it was us or other kids or just having the news on.  I've never seen this level of awareness of a US president.


----------



## SpitfireV (Sep 26, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> Believe what you will.  But these guys, they are just hypocrites.  Why stand for GSTQ?  I guarantee none of them can link The Crown to 'Murca pre-1783.  They want to stand (kneel?  Sit?  Whatev...) to demonstrate against oppression, but show support to the same government that has been THE most oppressive in North America....
> 
> Edited to add....to be fair, although the owners allow them to do this (easy fix:  owners say no) and therefore have a "right", I think it's tasteless and hypocritical.  One of those things, just because they can doesn't mean they should.  I also call out the hypocrisy of the NFL _writ large_ who says they believe in unity but refuses to allow players to wear a freakin' decal in support of LE and the military. So, unity and community seems to be a transient definition.



Great Britain (or British Empire, as it was then) was also the driving force behind getting rid of slavery by stopping the maritime merchants doing their trade in slaves (amongst other things). I might point out that your country had many years after that to stop the industry but did not. So your assertion cuts both ways and it isn't as cut and dried as what you might think.

It's also my country's other official national anthem, as an aside.


----------



## Devildoc (Sep 26, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> Great Britain (or British Empire, as it was then) was also the driving force behind getting rid of slavery by stopping the maritime merchants doing their trade in slaves (amongst other things). I might point out that your country had many years after that to stop the industry but did not. So your assertion cuts both ways and it isn't as cut and dried as what you might think.
> 
> It's also my country's other official national anthem, as an aside.



I love my brothers across the pond as much as the next guy, and my comments were not meant as a slam per se, but rather an illustration that these guys aren't paying attention to any context. All of your points are true and valid, but just as Britain made huge strides towards advancement, so did the US, which is why I was a little perturbed by there very weird, and educated stance.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 26, 2017)

A friend of mine suggested the POTUS violated the law attempting to influence/ threaten a private entity by use of color of office for political gain (at a political rally).

I said I will wait for the articles of impeachment.


----------



## Devildoc (Sep 26, 2017)

Florida173 said:


> A friend of mine suggested the POTUS violated the law attempting to influence/ threaten a private entity by use of color of office for political gain (at a political rally).
> 
> I said I will wait for the articles of impeachment.



Holy crap; gotta round up all politicians.

Those charges would be... wait for it...trumped up!


----------



## Gunz (Sep 26, 2017)

I would be fine if all the patriotic/military displays, flyovers, anthems etc were to disappear from sporting events. Then you don't have to worry about protests or political statements. The patriotic stuff is always overplayed anyway, too much gravy, every swinging dick is a warrior hero. Time to bring it down a notch.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 26, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> Great Britain (or British Empire, as it was then) was also the driving force behind getting rid of slavery by stopping the maritime merchants doing their trade in slaves (amongst other things). I might point out that your country had many years after that to stop the industry but did not. So your assertion cuts both ways and it isn't as cut and dried as what you might think.
> 
> It's also my country's other official national anthem, as an aside.


What's your point, standing for an anthem not their own and showing it respect whilst throwing out disdain for their own nation is idiotic.  We have the saying: don't air your dirty laundry in public.  In this case, in a foreign country it's pretty stupid when it's literally becoming just an anti-Trump thing.


----------



## SaintKP (Sep 26, 2017)

I've been listening to some podcasts recently and I came across one that I feel addresses our current situation pretty well. While it's title is Deep State Conspiracies all it goes into is myth busting of it. It focuses more on how the divide we currently face has developed and has continued to be exasperated.

Deep State Conspiracies

Honestly I'd agree with it (podcast), we can't stand divided against the people in the world who want to do us harm or see us no longer the world power we've been for the past almost 70 years. We as a nation have gone through many shifts and flip flops when it comes to political platforms and societal norms, so I have faith that we can work out our differences but it gets more and more difficult the more and more we refuse to reach a compromise with one another.

We are lacking in education, healthcare, infrastructure, and science. Even though we are the most powerful nation the world has ever seen or probably will see for sometime. We are falling behind as a people, more and more often I see people who are willing to accept something they see or hear online or on the news as fact, without putting effort into investigating it and developing their own opinion based around the facts. We are losing our ability to apply critical thinking to our environment and just accepting what ever is closest to our political standing.

The wolves are circling, we owe China almost 1.02 trillion as of May (it's not even published how much we owe the Saudis) and China has been manipulating the market for years now to make the Yuan surpass the dollar. Not only that but Russia shouldn't be considered an ally (which strangely a lot of the far right seem to believe)but instead as a natural competitor. They are not Britain or any of our "core" allies. We need to take a good long hard look at what's wrong with our country and work o n healing it, if we keep heading down this path of political and societal tribalism I'm afraid That we will fall and it'll hurt when it happens.


As I've been typing this, I see the tagline on CNN _'Trump after 24 tweets in 4 days "not preoccupied with NFL"_. So you know, we can continue to be petty and not look at the real issues that plague us right now. That's cool too....


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 26, 2017)

We owe Japan more money than we owe China, btw.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Sep 26, 2017)

The National Anthem is played at Games because its bad ass.  It started Cicra 1918 during WWI at a World Series game and then spread more and more during World War II and soon after it became the norm at baseball games which then spread to other sports!!!!!!


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 27, 2017)

The VFW and the American Legion ain't happy about this.  The nation’s largest veterans groups are irate and lashing out at NFL players for national anthem protests | American Military News


----------



## Devildoc (Sep 27, 2017)

The Panthers' owner is pretty serious about where he stands (it ain't for kneeling for the anthem).  Today a bunch of concerned players are meeting with him to come to a consensus.  He has been outspoken about their right to do what they want away from the field but has been pretty steadfast in his expectation in uniform.

Panthers players meeting with owner Jerry Richardson today over protests


----------



## RustyShackleford (Sep 27, 2017)

The boss lady and I have discussed this a few times since Kaepernick started sitting, then kneeling, during the anthem.  People can do what the want to do to call attention to a cause, to call BS on the President calling on a private business to fire employees, etc.  That's the beauty of living in this country.  If you don't like it, vote with your wallet.  I watch television sparingly and when I do it is usually sports (mostly Pittsburgh teams) or movies for entertainment and could really care less about any of the athletes or actors beliefs or politics.

Not giving a shit about much of anything has it's benefits in life!  Nihilism!


----------



## Frank S. (Sep 27, 2017)

RustyShackleford said:


> Not giving a shit about much of anything has it's benefits in life!  Nihilism!



Too easy, I know...


----------



## ShadowSpear (Sep 27, 2017)

🤷🏼‍♂️


----------



## Frank S. (Sep 27, 2017)

That was most excellent.


----------



## Kheenbish (Sep 27, 2017)

This goes along with what I previously said about how people don't actually know or care why NFL players are kneeling. It's creating a trend that disrespecting anything America stands for is now the right thing to do.


----------



## racing_kitty (Sep 27, 2017)

Kheenbish said:


> This goes along with what I previously said about how people don't actually know or care why NFL players are kneeling. It's creating a trend that disrespecting anything America stands for is now the right thing to do.



It’s funny, really, that this site is literally the only platform on which I’ve even remotely commented about the NFL kneeling issue. Not on Facebook, not in person, nor have I run out to start an Instagram or Twitter account so I can partake of said outrage. So it’s safe to say that all I feel is a bit of skepticism, and nothing more. 

That is, until I saw this picture. Too many family and friends are in Section 60 and columbariums for me not to be affected by his protest. Black, white, Asian, Arlington knows no color. I still can’t find my outrage switch for The Cause (TM), but I damn sure am angry enough to cave that motherfucker’s head in. Not everyone, just him.


----------



## Muppet (Sep 27, 2017)

Kheenbish said:


> This goes along with what I previously said about how people don't actually know or care why NFL players are kneeling. It's creating a trend that disrespecting anything America stands for is now the right thing to do.



Fucking cunts. All of them. Disrespectful cunts, looking for something to bitch about. IMHO......

M.


----------



## Salt USMC (Sep 27, 2017)

Hard agree.  The Tomb of the Unknowns is explicitly a memorial to soldiers and has no tie-in with social or racial justice.


----------



## amlove21 (Sep 27, 2017)




----------



## DA SWO (Sep 27, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> View attachment 19813


Maybe it was the straw that broke the camels back?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 27, 2017)

Kheenbish said:


> This goes along with what I previously said about how people don't actually know or care why NFL players are kneeling. It's creating a trend that disrespecting anything America stands for is now the right thing to do.


Do you have the source for that?


----------



## Centermass (Sep 28, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> The Panthers' owner is pretty serious about where he stands (it ain't for kneeling for the anthem).  Today a bunch of concerned players are meeting with him to come to a consensus.  He has been outspoken about their right to do what they want away from the field but has been pretty steadfast in his expectation in uniform.
> 
> Panthers players meeting with owner Jerry Richardson today over protests



How quickly things change in a day. 

I hope he finds time to work on his game in addition to this. 

Found this in my news feed. 

NFL might ‘go to hell,’ but Panthers QB Cam Newton has different destination in mind

BTW, DirecTV is offering refunds to those who purchased an NFL Sunday packages this year.


----------



## SaintKP (Sep 28, 2017)

Kheenbish said:


> This goes along with what I previously said about how people don't actually know or care why NFL players are kneeling. It's creating a trend that disrespecting anything America stands for is now the right thing to do.




These are the type of things that make me wish the "hate" option was back. Really makes it hard for me to be supportive of those who do kneel during the anthem because it brings to light that a undefined amount of people have no idea what they are protesting _at _whatsoever. That they just do it because it's the _in _thing to do.


----------



## Devildoc (Sep 28, 2017)

Centermass said:


> How quickly things change in a day.
> 
> I hope he finds time to work on his game in addition to this.
> 
> ...



So my question then, if this (protesting) has nothing to do with patriotism or the flag (as said in the article), why do it then?

That's a legit question.  I have read that are heard that in the media; it's not about the flag, it's not about patriotism.  OK, fine.  Then why not a different venue?


----------



## The Hate Ape (Sep 28, 2017)

What I find most interesting:

After what can be logically assessed as the last twenty years of zero productivity towards racially separated issues and other venomous topics - the turning point came from a declining NFL Quarterback's decision to take a knee during the National Anthem. What a fucking joke this is.

If you want to assess how much people care, observe how they dedicate their time to the issue.

"Yeah, you won't find me actually doing anything about what is going on - but if somebody plays the National Anthem at a game I'm paid to play, while infront of the camera, sure, I'll briefly take a knee." (thanks for your contribution there..)

I might actually be impressed by the same players who took a knee, not showing up to work on Sunday. Have any of these players (fuck just one?) actually filed anything in the court system? Have any of these players came to the aide of the long toted police brutality victims?

No, they just take a fucking quick little knee and go back to playing football. Meanwhile, observers shout like school girls over the issue.

This is all for show, literally, nothing is changing/happening/inbound from *insert name of dickhead* taking a knee. Big shout-out to those who burned their sports memorabilia in their yards. I hope you put the fire out with your tears because the beneficiaries of the goods you purchased are crying laughing at your pathetic little attempt at protest.

I wish there was a metric or value we could place on someone's protest.

These players, leftists, whatever - they're not _really_ protesting anything. Nothing _really_ productive is happening as a result of this except its great media coverage and there is an endless supply of dickheads on Facebook ready to freak out. For the record, I don't give a flying fuck what you do during the National Anthem. If you want to be a disrespectful asshole, congrats, its your right to do so.

Do it in my house, burn a flag, or attempt to fuck up any of my mojo for the day - that's a different story.

To anyone who says these protests are not disrespecting the National Anthem - they absolutely are, and by design, are a disrespectful gesture to the National Anthem and Nation alike. *To attempt to capitalize on the fame and glory of the National Anthem with a protest*, and then shove-off the notion that it wasn't about _that_ is not only hypocritical but moronic. 

.02

H/A


----------



## Sendero (Sep 28, 2017)

A few thoughts, in no particular order. 

Peaceful protest has historical significance  in the black community. It has worked for them and some of the most honored were peaceful protesters. 

I would rather have peaceful protest that I disagree with. Than to stop free speech and have violence instead. Taking a knee and giving an outlet is preferred to shooting cops. 

Patriotism isn't being taught in many schools as it was to me. I went to a HS graduation a few years ago. A large portion of people sat, talked and laughed during the anthem. This was in a sanctuary city at a sanctuary school. 

The fact that of the top 5 ways a black male dies in the USA one is homicide (CDC). Is something that bothers me and is a real problem.


----------



## The Hate Ape (Sep 28, 2017)

Sendero said:


> A few thoughts, in no particular order.
> 
> Peaceful protest has historical significance  in the black community. It has worked for them and some of the most honored were peaceful protesters.
> 
> ...



Yeah well it reads like it bothers you. 

Plot Twist: Most homicidal crime involves minority groups acting against other minority groups - not police officers or these wheat chewing rednecks calling people "boy" and shit. Silent protests aren't doing a motherfucking thing. You can be part of fixing the world, taking advantage of the world, or feeling sorry for the world. 

You choose.


----------



## Sendero (Sep 28, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> Yeah well it reads like it bothers you.



I don't like that the NFL players are kneeling for the anthem and it's not something I would do. The form of protest they chose bothered me but I can seek to understand it.  

You're 100% correct about homicides.


----------



## 757 (Sep 28, 2017)

I think all of you are missing Trumps ultimate goal. Seeing Kaepernick kneeling as a form of protest got him thinking, "is there a way to make the whole world protest within a few miles of me?"


----------



## The Hate Ape (Sep 28, 2017)

I don't believe Trump has an ultimate goal other than accomplishing what he believes to be best for the country. Like any president before him, he will make miscalculations and hopefully that can be minimized. Interesting note though - his presidency has been the best thing to happen to the topic of racially divided societal issues and it's quite ironic.

These issues will remain relevant so long as opponents in the administration consider it an effective political play. 

I'm not arguing for or against the validity of said issues. Frankly I don't give a shit - what I do care about is politicians, media, and the ivory tower types among protest organizations capitalizing on emotion to support a personal/political agenda. So many people believe this country has gone to shit for the simple reason that bad news is force-fed through all media sources.


----------



## Kheenbish (Sep 28, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Do you have the source for that?


I do not, it was brought up in a group text I have with some buddies from work. I don't believe it's gotten any media coverage aside from Reddit at this point.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 28, 2017)

Kheenbish said:


> I do not, it was brought up in a group text I have with some buddies from work. I don't believe it's gotten any media coverage aside from Reddit at this point.


Yeah it's floating around, I was trying to find an original source to get good context.


----------



## TLDR20 (Sep 28, 2017)

I Just Wish NFL Players Could Find A Way To Protest Without Starting A National Dialogue


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Sep 28, 2017)

[QUO


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Sep 28, 2017)

If only everything was equal......


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 28, 2017)

Green Bay about to get booed at home: Statement from the Green Bay Packers players


----------



## Kaldak (Sep 28, 2017)

My understanding from a Rodgers radio interview is that they will all remain standing while locking arms. No kneeling or sitting. So, I'll be curious to see the reaction to that.


----------



## Devildoc (Sep 28, 2017)

I think I have said it here, I don't mind protesting. I think sticking to your values and protesting according to your values is a good thing. My issue is the mechanism, and the apparent manufactured outrage since Trump tweeted what he did. I agree with red flag that this is totally overshadowing the very good charitable work that most of the players and teams do. I don't mind that this is creating a national dialogue, in fact I welcome it. But I fear that their actions are backing everybody into a corner, those who agree with those actions, and those who don't, and everyone will be sticking to their guns to The Bitter End.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 28, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Green Bay about to get booed at home: Statement from the Green Bay Packers players



LOL

<YAWN>

Wake me when an NHL does it...those fans are a different kind of crazy.


----------



## Devildoc (Sep 28, 2017)

Very nice, Packers and Bears...


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 29, 2017)

Kaldak said:


> My understanding from a Rodgers radio interview is that they will all remain standing while locking arms. No kneeling or sitting. So, I'll be curious to see the reaction to that.


What's great unity would be standing at attention with their hands over their hearts and then donating both time and money to inner city charities for at-risk youth from broken homes.  Because the true leading cause of crime is young men raised without fathers.


----------



## TLDR20 (Sep 29, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> What's great unity would be standing at attention with their hands over their hearts and then donating both time and money to inner city charities for at-risk youth from broken homes.  Because the true leading cause of crime is young men raised without fathers.



You know they don't do the latter? Do you do those things?


----------



## The Hate Ape (Sep 29, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> I Just Wish NFL Players Could Find A Way To Protest Without Starting A National Dialogue



The whole dialogue thing is played the fuck out man. Create all the platforms, dialogues, Facebook rants, forum posts, apps, tinder pages whatever-the-hell and still... nothing has changed. If things were actually changing for the better from the perspective of those participating, would this situation currently exist?

Doubt it.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 29, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> You know they don't do the latter? Do you do those things?


 They have way more money and way more time than I do.  However, I've put my money where my mouth was when it came to Hurricane Harvey Relief donating to Rugby Relief (Didn't have the time, although I may get some soon), which is a fucking outstanding organization of Rugby Players that deployed 170 people in Houston to gut homes.  Mostly to help Rugby people but it quickly became Rugby House on the block first and then the rest in a systematic fashion.  They're still working.  Puerto Rico is without power right now, place is fucked, and we're hearing about this shit.  Why are you playing with this crap?

Like I have hear about this shit all day rather than how troops and ships are moving to the Caribbean to begin stability operations.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 29, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> <mod edit>



While likely not your intent, your phrasing comes across as antagonistic towards another member.

Professional environment please; especially in these types of threads.  We have at least two topics that are always just one misinterpreted phrase from blowing up into an angry dialog between any two members.

Thanks!


----------



## DC (Sep 29, 2017)

Looks like nfl wide no more kneeling. Bet kaperdick is crying at his moms house right meow.


----------



## amlove21 (Sep 29, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> While likely not your intent, your phrasing comes across as antagonistic towards another member.
> 
> Professional environment please; especially in these types of threads.  We have at least two topics that are always just one misinterpreted phrase from blowing up into an angry dialog between any two members.
> 
> Thanks!


Thought we talked about this very thing earlier. 

@TLDR20 and @ThunderHorse you're taking a break from the thread. 

@Ooh-Rah , thanks for the work, and everyone else, carry on.


----------



## CDG (Sep 29, 2017)

DC said:


> Looks like nfl wide no more kneeling.



Do you have a link to an article or press release about this?


----------



## Frank S. (Sep 29, 2017)

@x SF med


----------



## DC (Sep 29, 2017)

CDG said:


> Do you have a link to an article or press release about this?


It was on the news and a Ben Shapiro number 392 discussion video.


----------



## DC (Sep 29, 2017)




----------



## CDG (Sep 29, 2017)

DC said:


> It was on the news and a Ben Shapiro number 392 discussion video.



Cool.  I was just curious.  Thanks man.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 4, 2017)

More eloquent than I can really put it: The First Amendment and the Flag


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 8, 2017)

I guess this isn't over: VP Mike Pence walks out of 49ers-Colts game after players kneel during anthem


----------



## amlove21 (Oct 8, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> I guess this isn't over: VP Mike Pence walks out of 49ers-Colts game after players kneel during anthem


Right! Didn't Ben Shapiro say that kneeling was over and President Trump won?

I will hand it to Mike Pence, though. He doesn't like the kneeling, he doesn't wanna support the NFL, he left the game. I could do without the whole "using his position on social media" to tweet about it, but hey, he's halfway there.


----------



## TLDR20 (Oct 8, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> Right! Didn't Ben Shapiro say that kneeling was over and President Trump won?
> 
> I will hand it to Mike Pence, though. He doesn't like the kneeling, he doesn't wanna support the NFL, he left the game. I could do without the whole "using his position on social media" to tweet about it, but hey, he's halfway there.



Or it somehow being about "the troops".


----------



## amlove21 (Oct 8, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Or it somehow being about "the troops".


Didn't understand that one, especially from the VP, but that's not even the weirdest thing on a tweet out of that administration in the last 24 hours.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 8, 2017)

Well it's a bit like when he was at Hamilton, a paying customer, and the cast decided to do what it was going to do because they knew he was there.  If they did it purely because he was there it's not whatever it's about.


----------



## TLDR20 (Oct 8, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> Didn't understand that one, especially from the VP, but that's not even the weirdest thing on a tweet out of that administration in the last 24 hours.



Yeah no shit.


----------



## amlove21 (Oct 8, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Well it's a bit like when he was at Hamilton, a paying customer, and the cast decided to do what it was going to do because they knew he was there.  If they did it purely because he was there it's not whatever it's about.


Meh, I suppose you're right. He could have walked out there, too.


----------



## TLDR20 (Oct 8, 2017)

Vice President Mike Pence Turned 49ers-Colts Into a Political Stunt


----------



## Florida173 (Oct 8, 2017)

Now Kaepernick is apparently saying that he will stand if he gets signed.. 

The VP wasn't the one who turned the NFL into a political stunt


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 8, 2017)

And Beckhem Jr. kisses the game goodbye. Man does he look to be in a LOT of pain.


----------



## TLDR20 (Oct 8, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> And Beckhem Jr. kisses the game goodbye. Man does he look to be in a LOT of pain.



Horrible to see. That was an ugly injury, and Beckham is a great player. Hate to see that.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 8, 2017)

Too many damn football threads!  Sorry guys, did not mean to put the Beckham story here.


----------



## TLDR20 (Oct 8, 2017)

Oh yeah...


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 8, 2017)

WH Staffer: "Hey MG Carr, you wanna go to the football game today with the VP?"

MG Carr: "Hell yeah!"

WH Staffer: "Great, wear your blues"

MG Carr: "F@ck"


----------



## Il Duce (Oct 8, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> WH Staffer: "Hey MG Carr, you wanna go to the football game today with the VP?"
> 
> MG Carr: "Hell yeah!"
> 
> ...



Alright, I'll be a petty asshole - 12 months in theater MG Carr, where the fuck have you been the last 16 years?


----------



## 8482farm (Oct 8, 2017)

Honestly, I don't like how the President weighed in on the situation. It's so trivial and beneath him. I feel like we have a lot more pressing concerns going on that needs his complete attention. I do consider the kneeling a type of peaceful protest. It's his freedom and right to do so. He's not spewing hateful rhetoric or burning flags. He's bringing to light institutional racism and discrimination among minorities during recent police altercations. Something I believe is prevalent in our country. If this is not an appropriate way to protest, what is? I have traveled enough to realize that this is the greatest country to live in and am thankful for the rights and freedoms that are granted to me by being a citizen. But I'm far from aligning with anything chauvinistic, jingoistic, or xenophobic.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Oct 8, 2017)

@Il Duce  How many stripes do you have?!?!?!??


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 8, 2017)

Il Duce said:


> Alright, I'll be a petty asshole - 12 months in theater MG Carr, where the fuck have you been the last 16 years?


Indiana National Guard since 1990.  But his deployment was to Iraq during the GWOT.  Looks like he somehow missed DS when he was on AD:
Adjutant General | Indiana National Guard

Going by the Wiki Entry, 1-77 AR did not deploy for Desert Storm: 77th Armored Regiment - Wikipedia


----------



## Il Duce (Oct 8, 2017)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> @Il Duce  How many stripes do you have?!?!?!??



Seven, and I'm not a GO...


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 8, 2017)

This has spread slightly to the NHL now.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 9, 2017)

I haven't watched Hockey since the lockout.


----------



## x SF med (Oct 9, 2017)

This whole thing is just a way to jump on a bandwagon to get your name and picture in the media in hopes of garnering attention for something about which most of these fuckers are ambivalent at best,  wholly uninformed for the most part, and maybe 3 in the NFL really and actually believe without having a Muslim significant other threatening to cut them off.

As long as there is outrage, which correlates to media coverage, this will continue - until those that want to say something back to the money machine that is the NFL (actually Pro Sports as an industry) and boycott anything having to do with the industry. Bad press is press, and press means money, so the reporters and the NFL are getting richer through this whole fiasco/sham/attention whoring performance.

Speak with your wallet, or walk away from the argument.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 9, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> This has spread slightly to the NHL now.



Como say what?


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 9, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Como say what?



I don't follow. 




ThunderHorse said:


> I haven't watched Hockey since the lockout.



Oh cool.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 9, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> I don't follow.
> 
> Oh cool.



"SPANGLISH, MOTHER FUCKER!  DO YOU SPEAK IT!?!" <pulp fiction>

I wanted to know what you meant by this spreading to the NHL.


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 9, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> "SPANGLISH, MOTHER FUCKER!  DO YOU SPEAK IT!?!" <pulp fiction>
> 
> I wanted to know what you meant by this spreading to the NHL.



NEIN BOLO MEIYOU ARSELICK. 

There was one, maybe two players kneeling during the anthem. That's what I mean by slightly.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 9, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> NEIN BOLO MEIYOU ARSELICK.
> 
> There was one, maybe two players kneeling during the anthem. That's what I mean by slightly.



Lightning forward J.T. Brown raises fist during national anthem

I have to imagine there is a LOT of external pressure (to protest) on the few black guys who play in the NHL


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 9, 2017)

Sorry yes it was a fist raise. I must have equated it in my head and then misremembered it, heh. I'd say you're probably right too.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 9, 2017)

Go after the President, nada.  Go after Jerry Jones, hit the showers: Jemele Hill Suspended by ESPN After Response to Jerry Jones


----------



## Centermass (Oct 9, 2017)

Florida173 said:


> Now Kaepernick is apparently saying that he will stand if he gets signed..
> 
> The VP wasn't the one who turned the NFL into a political stunt



Well, 

His mouthpiece once again, has something to say.


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## Grunt (Oct 9, 2017)

Who is Colin????


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## Marauder06 (Oct 10, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> NEIN BOLO MEIYOU ARSELICK.
> 
> ...



Lo siento, pero yo no hablo "Hobbit."


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## SpitfireV (Oct 10, 2017)

No hable Americano Senora Mara


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## AWP (Oct 10, 2017)

"Come on boys. We don't want any trouble in here. Not in any language."


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## SaintKP (Oct 10, 2017)

Extremely informative video on the offensive and defensive opportunities of taking a knee when in hand to hand combat, presented by the ever professional Master Ken.


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## 757 (Oct 11, 2017)

Goodell issues memo to teams on national anthem


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 11, 2017)

757 said:


> Goodell issues memo to teams on national anthem



Readers Digest translation for those who don't want to try to decipher his corporate speak:
_"Come on guys.  People watch us on Sunday to escape this shit and see good football...if you keep this up, you could really fuck up the good things we've got going.  PLEASE....stop the kneeling shit, we'll figure something else out to keep the conversation going"._


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## 8482farm (Oct 11, 2017)

An interesting take from Nate Boyer:


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 13, 2017)

File under “BWAHAHAHAHAHA!

Roger Goodell's wife argued under fake Twitter account | Daily Mail Online

I’m sure this won’t cause any tension at the dinner table, LOL


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 13, 2017)

She probably earned a bit of extra loving down under...


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## TLDR20 (Oct 18, 2017)

Oh the irony....


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 18, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Oh the irony....View attachment 20019



Dear world.  

I quit.

LOL


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## 8482farm (Oct 18, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Oh the irony....View attachment 20019



*Shaking my goddam head*


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## Salt USMC (Oct 18, 2017)

There’s no way that isn’t staged.  It’s just too perfect.


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## amlove21 (Oct 18, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> There’s no way that isn’t staged.  It’s just too perfect.


Never underestimate the stupidity of humans, my friend. Especially Jets fans.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 27, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> Kaepernick actually donates a bunch of his time and money to youth programs while continuing his protest.
> 
> Look, America complains about violence from BLM, and protesters blocking traffic, and myriad other things that distract from the message.  People say, "Why can't you follow the example of MLK and protest peacefully?"  So NFL players go ahead and do that, and people still lose their minds.  It's literally the most peaceful form of protest and America still isn't good with it.  I mean, what good is a protest if it doesn't generate some measure of controversy?  What are black activists supposed to do?  Ask nicely?



I would ask what discriminatory law are they protesting? Rosa Parks was protesting a law prohibiting anyone but whites to sit in the front of the bus. Name one law that currently discrimates against anyone on the color of their skin? I'll help you out and give you the one and only one, affirmative action.


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## Il Duce (Oct 27, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> I would ask what discriminatory law are they protesting? Rosa Parks was protesting a law prohibiting anyone but whites to sit in the front of the bus. Name one law that currently discrimates against anyone on the color of their skin? I'll help you out and give you the one and only one, affirmative action.



I think this is a great example of why the first amendment exists 'you can't protest because I don't agree with whatever it is you're protesting about.'


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 27, 2017)

Other than losing his job to Blaine Gabbert...I don't think he was protesting jack until the cameras trained on him and now it's become a hullabaloo where the people who pay the bills have told the players to get bent.  Being from the North is cool, but the vast majority of people expect the gladiators to perform or the emperor to turn his thumb down.


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## 757 (Oct 27, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> I would ask what discriminatory law are they protesting? Rosa Parks was protesting a law prohibiting anyone but whites to sit in the front of the bus. Name one law that currently discrimates against anyone on the color of their skin? I'll help you out and give you the one and only one, affirmative action.



I think what they (the ones capable of thinking for themselves) are protesting is, the unequal enforcement of the law, not necessarily specific laws.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 29, 2017)

Cue up: YOU'RE COMPARING US TO CRIMINALS

Houston Texans planning pregame protest over owner Bob McNair comments, report says

Oh wait...


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## amlove21 (Oct 29, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Cue up: YOU'RE COMPARING US TO CRIMINALS
> 
> Houston Texans planning pregame protest over owner Bob McNair comments, report says
> 
> Oh wait...


That's just ridiculous. It's an expression. A common expression.

"I really let the cat out of the bag on that one."

DID YOU JUST REFER TO ME AS A FELINE!?!


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## Marine0311 (Oct 29, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> Kaepernick actually donates a bunch of his time and money to youth programs while continuing his protest.
> 
> Look, America complains about violence from BLM, and protesters blocking traffic, and myriad other things that distract from the message.  People say, "Why can't you follow the example of MLK and protest peacefully?"  So NFL players go ahead and do that, and people still lose their minds.  It's literally the most peaceful form of protest and America still isn't good with it.  I mean, what good is a protest if it doesn't generate some measure of controversy?  What are black activists supposed to do?  Ask nicely?



Because I think it is a disgusting act to kneel during our National Anthem that is why. It is unpatriotic. It is filth. It is morally wrong to do. It spits in the face of the men and women who serve. It spits on the graves of those who have died serving and protecting this nation; further protecting the rights and freedoms we have as American citizens.

Fuck people who kneel.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 29, 2017)

I


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## amlove21 (Oct 29, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I have not watched a game all year and I don't see any reason to change my mind.


Well, you are missing some pretty good football!

Except for the Browns. They're terrible.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 29, 2017)

[QUOT


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## 8482farm (Oct 30, 2017)

Marine0311 said:


> Because I think it is a disgusting act to kneel during our National Anthem that is why. It is unpatriotic. It is filth. It is morally wrong to do. It spits in the face of the men and women who serve. It spits on the graves of those who have died serving and protecting this nation; further protecting the rights and freedoms we have as American citizens.
> 
> Fuck people who kneel.



So do you knife hand every personnel for running into the MCX when they hear the 5min warning for colors? It's okay to strongly disagree with something but to call it filth and a deliberate spit-in-the-face to our service members is a little overboard. He's not burning flags, spewing hateful rhetoric, or dishonoring anyone. If you think this is an inappropriate action for protesting, in what way do you recommend he protest?


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## Marine0311 (Oct 30, 2017)

8482farm said:


> So do you knife hand every personnel for running into the MCX when they hear the 5min warning for colors? It's okay to strongly disagree with something but to call it filth and a deliberate spit-in-the-face to our service members is a little overboard. He's not burning flags, spewing hateful rhetoric, or dishonoring anyone. If you think this is an inappropriate action for protesting, in what way do you recommend he protest?



Yes I knife hand them too. When I saw Marines do this it made my blood boil.

I don't know but do it other than during the National Anthem.


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## Topkick (Oct 30, 2017)

Has anything changed? Will it? If so, is it really because somebody refused to stand?
I don't know but I just think it's stupid. Bring the ratings down in your own sport and all for naught. Good luck with it.

Edited for grammer


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## DocIllinois (Oct 30, 2017)

Topkick said:


> Has anything changed? Will it? If so, is it really because somebody refused to stand.
> I don't know but I just think it's stupid. Bring the ratings down in your own sport and all for naught. Good luck with it.



And yet, this thread is eleven pages long.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 13, 2017)

So GQ somehow named Kaep citizen of the year.


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## Devildoc (Nov 13, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> So GQ somehow named Kaep citizen of the year.



And Watt gives tens of millions to Houston gets.... crickets.....


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## Poccington (Nov 13, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> So GQ somehow named Kaep citizen of the year.



The man once wore socks depicting cops as pigs.

The fuck?


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## BloodStripe (Nov 13, 2017)

Clearly they just want to sell magazine's. The shock factor will drive people to their page and drive up ad revenue. This is no different than that Jenner story a few years ago and ESPN ESPY award.


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## 8482farm (Nov 13, 2017)

I wonder if half of the people who are outraged at GQ even subscribe to GQ.


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## AWP (Nov 13, 2017)

Kaep should have an award for willingly going under center behind the 49'ers O line. Do that enough times and protesting injustice becomes a nonevent.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 14, 2017)

8482farm said:


> I wonder if half of the people who are outraged at GQ even subscribe to GQ.


I subscribe to GQ...their going hard in the paint on politics has annoyed the shit out of me for the last four years.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 14, 2017)

8482farm said:


> I wonder if half of the people who are outraged at GQ even subscribe to GQ.



I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here.  Might people not read GQ because GQ takes political stances like this?  Does one have to read a magazine to be outraged by its cover?


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## TLDR20 (Nov 14, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> Does one have to read a magazine to be outraged by its cover?



Don’t we have a common metaphor about that? 

If you want to be outraged, be outraged, but Read what it says and who said it at least. Be outraged by the content, not the cover. But also remember who it is catering to. Maybe you aren’t GQ’s target audience. Maybe to their target audience this piece was right on track. To them a bunch of outraged right wing  white men on the Internet might be what they were going for.

Like it or not in many circles, Kaepernicks stand has shed light on issues of racial injustice. He is standing for what he believes in in the face of extreme adversity. Those are values that should be extolled. His latest piece highlighting the difference in sentencing for cases like Brock Turner and Meek Mill were spot on, and worthy of outrage towards a system that is that fucked up. 

But here we are wanting to be outraged by a magazine cover.


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## The Hate Ape (Nov 14, 2017)

If anyone here (in favor of or against the cover) believes the executives of GQ give even the slightest-fuck toward racial inequality you're sadly mistaken.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 14, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Maybe to their target audience this piece was right on track. To them a bunch of outraged right wing white men on the Internet might be what they were going for.



Agreed.  In fact I gave up GQ some years ago and switched to Men's Health for this very reason.  There was a period of time where month-after-month, there were editorials about the evil of guns and _"outraged right wing white men on the Internet".  _Every. Single. Month.

It got to the point where I just didn't get any value from the content anymore; so I stopped buying it.


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## AWP (Nov 14, 2017)

Much of modern print media is an old nostalgic concept containing content of questionable value. Media in general is an ad driven echo chamber feeding the polarization of society instead of providing information and sparking debate. Put Kaep on the cover? Great. Whatever. Print media can't build a new audience as much as it can retard the departure of its existing readers.


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## TLDR20 (Nov 14, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> If anyone here (in favor of or against the cover) believes the executives of GQ give even the slightest-fuck toward racial inequality you're sadly mistaken.



I don’t think the executives at any company really give two shits about anything apart from their profits and their shareholders. The writers and editors otoh...


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 14, 2017)

They did an article on Tucker Carlson and it was completely adverse and to be honest, extremely disrespectful.

I'm not sure of whom GQ's target audience is, but their advertisers are intending to advertise to people whom can afford their shit.  I'm not sure the current editorial content is targeting those people.  And yes, Kaepernick should not have been their citizen of the year.  His silence on what he wants, tells me he didn't want a job and just wanted to sue the NFL.


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## The Hate Ape (Nov 14, 2017)

Yeah that was my point (Profits).

As to the writers and editors, they're just replaceable pawns who at the moment, feel very important.


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## The Hate Ape (Nov 14, 2017)

The above mentions translate well into everything "social" and the fallacy that we, as a society, subscribe to a political agenda as if any of them are not built on deception and/or against the best interests of constituents. This didn't start with "Trump's America" nor will it end there. People need to wake the fuck up and hopefully the death of this kneeling shit provides a pretty good proof.

Yes, I said death - this was all so popular and important not quite two months ago and now it has completely taken a media backseat to gropey white guys in power. GQ Writers and editors are not the only ones being pawns...


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## amlove21 (Nov 24, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> The above mentions translate well into everything "social" and the fallacy that we, as a society, subscribe to a political agenda as if any of them are not built on deception and/or against the best interests of constituents. This didn't start with "Trump's America" nor will it end there. People need to wake the fuck up and hopefully the death of this kneeling shit provides a pretty good proof.
> 
> Yes, I said death - this was all so popular and important not quite two months ago and now it has completely taken a media backseat to gropey white guys in power. GQ Writers and editors are not the only ones being pawns...


Almost made it! Apparently President Trump is still upset about it.


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## AWP (Nov 24, 2017)

Counterpoint: the Giants player was probably kneeling in prayer, asking a just and benevolent god for a planet-ending space-borne event.


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## amlove21 (Nov 24, 2017)

AWP said:


> Counterpoint: the Giants player was probably kneeling in prayer, asking a just and benevolent god for a planet-ending space-borne event.


Like and agree. The Browns have a similar pre-game ritual, but it's hard to get mad at silent existential dread and hoplessness. It doesn't play well on TV.


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## SaintKP (Nov 24, 2017)

AWP said:


> Counterpoint: the Giants player was probably kneeling in prayer, asking a just and benevolent god for a planet-ending space-borne event.




Well...

Three-mile-wide 'potentially hazardous' asteroid will fly past Earth


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## Salt USMC (Nov 25, 2017)

SaintKP said:


> Well...
> 
> Three-mile-wide 'potentially hazardous' asteroid will fly past Earth


OhpleaseOhpleaseOhpleaseOhpleaseOhpleaseOhpleaseOhpleaseOhpleaseOhpleaseOhpleaseOhpleaseOhpleaseOhplease


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## Kraut783 (Nov 25, 2017)

Please release a zombie making spore!


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## amlove21 (Jun 5, 2018)

Great work there, Fox. Just great. 

Fox News ripped for misleading photos of Philadelphia Eagles players kneeling

Are we done with this yet? No? Still talking about the anthem and camps barely started? Cool.


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## Box (Jun 5, 2018)

All a professional sportsball athlete has to do is state that they will stand quietly with their hand on their heart in protest and 50% of the American populace will loose their minds...
...because standing in protest is unthinkable
...so is kneeling
...or sitting
...or staying in the locker room
...or joining arms
...or refusing to joining arms
...or because they are blindly paying homage to an oppressive regime
...or not

I am outraged at this outrage !!!

Most TV news these days is more entertainment than information.  Infotainment - it's what America wants!
If it isn't one channel its the other.  The alphabet media (ABC CBS NBS FOX CNN MSNBC TBS LMNOP ETC) will print-post-reprint-repost-report anything and everything if it will draw enough controversy to increase the ratings share.
Who cares about accuracy?  
Why do we need fact-checking when we have Snopes? 

All of these hacks and hackettes should be taken out to sea and thrown overboard with a cinder block tied to their foot.
Way to go FOX - good job

Now - would everyone please stand...
...or kneel
...or sit
...for the playing of the national anthem


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## AWP (Jun 5, 2018)

If the news and President were to drop this matter, America's attention span would guarantee that... squirrel!


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