# Looking for CA/Intelligence book.



## Pawp (Apr 8, 2016)

Hello, 

   I am considering some 35 series MOS options and am looking for a book that can help me understand the espirit de corps that exists in the CA/Intelligence Army community. Something along the line of Sua Sponte or Chosen Soldier by Dich Couch. I have found plenty of specific info on SS and the web but nothing that helps me understand the type of culture I am possibly entering. I would like more of a gestalt than the details and minutiae I am currently finding. This may have been covered in another thread which I missed. If so, I would appreciate being pointed in that direction.  

Thanks for the help


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## Brill (Apr 8, 2016)

Civil Affairs and Intel people don't like each other much.


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## Pawp (Apr 8, 2016)

lindy said:


> Civil Affairs and Intel people don't like each other much.



Why is that?


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## Il Duce (Apr 8, 2016)

@Pawp I think you'll find Civil Affairs (CA) and intelligence MOS' are very different career paths.  Within the 35 series MOS' there is also a great deal of variety - which does not discount 35T, a technician not intelligence Soldier.  I doubt you'll find many books on 35-series professions written in the popular 'operator memoir' vein that's not almost entirely bullshit.

If you're interested in an excellent full-spectrum historical look at what intelligence can do I recommend 'Frontline Intelligence' - which is an AAR from WWII on what worked for BN, BDE/RGT, and DIV S2/G2s.  If that's too dry and you want something with a narrative component I think the parts of a book called 'A Bright Shining Lie' are a very good depiction of what creative intelligence Soldiers and officers can do.  Full disclosure that's only about 5% of the book, the rest is an interesting case study of LTC(R) John Paul Vann, an integral figure in the Vietnam war.

There's tons of good stuff out there on national level intelligence collector careers but they don't match very closely what you would do as a Soldier.


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## Brill (Apr 8, 2016)

Pawp said:


> Why is that?



Personally I think it's because CA-types believe that people are good but MI-types know what people do in the shadows when nobody is looking.

Think hippie vs "The Man" 

or Democrat vs Republican.


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## Totentanz (Apr 8, 2016)

lindy said:


> Personally I think it's because CA-types believe that people are good but MI-types know what people do in the shadows when nobody is looking.
> 
> Think hippie vs "The Man"
> 
> or Democrat vs Republican.



While some of those people exist, in my experience they've been the exception, not the norm.


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## Brill (Apr 8, 2016)

Totentanz said:


> While some of those people exist, in my experience they've been the exception, not the norm.



With all your disagree votes, you're slowly validating my initial assertion.


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## Pawp (Apr 8, 2016)

@Il Duce  I didn't realize the difference between the two was so pronounced. It seems that the CA and INT get grouped together in many of the online threads. I appreciate the book suggestions and will look into both. 

@lindy While I'm not a fan of hippies (I was raised by hippies), I think I'll keep my disdain of patchouli oil out of my decision making process. 

@Totentanz Would you mind elaborating? I'm genuinely curious about the difference.


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## Totentanz (Apr 8, 2016)

lindy said:


> With all your disagree votes, you're slowly validating my initial assertion.



I like most of the intel folks I've come across.  There are, however, some smart-ass NCOs who may serve as exceptions.


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## Brill (Apr 8, 2016)

@Pawp , as you can see, there is only the typical MOS-rivalry but as the boss said above, they're very different career paths without much overlap (may get some when CA folks talk to people/have access MI doesn't) but overall, we consume each other's information and efforts.


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## Totentanz (Apr 8, 2016)

Pawp said:


> @Totentanz Would you mind elaborating? I'm genuinely curious about the difference.



There are two topics to discuss here - the information gathered as part of CA, and the personalities @lindy was referring to.

Civil Information - CA doesn't do intel.  In the routine course of operations, we report information regarding civil conditions that is disseminated the whatever community is relevant - any related military elements, as well as the larger US government/interagency community.  The information frequently provides important context across the board for the US government as a whole to make better informed decisions, whether it's a military commander, another security element (such as Diplomatic Security Service or Department of Justice), or other US/allied organizations such as USAID.  And yes, the intelligence community, along with everyone else, will have access to the information.  As Lindy said - we consume each other's products.


Because of the humanitarian nature of some of the impacts we can have on an operational environment, the field occasionally attracts people who have something of a perception that they've joined the Peace Corps or USAID, but they still get to wear a green uniform.  (or they're gunning for a job with such organizations and that takes priority over anything military-related)  They're here to save the children and give out free stuff to the disadvantaged.  While that sometimes aligns with a larger US goal of moving a critical region out of instability (a common effort for CA forces), those efforts on their own are NOT the fundamental reason why CA units exist, nor are they the sole path to flawless victory.  It can be really frustrating to work with someone in this field who thinks that the job has nothing to do with Department of Defense goals and objectives... :wall:  

Different places/units/cultures will have different experiences with that.  I'm not sure exactly who Lindy worked with, but it's not inconceivable, and in certain places may actually be prevalent.


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## Florida173 (Apr 8, 2016)

I'm so confused.. how is there any similarity to the two career paths?  

Military intelligence is about red force tracking and analysis.

Civil affairs is about humanitarian efforts with the civilian population as a means of control and mitigation of military impact from operations.


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## AWP (Apr 8, 2016)

This thread is like a chicken noodle hoagie.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 8, 2016)

I've been an intel officer most of my career and have nothing but love for CA.  I've never seen CA and intel conjoined in any conversation.  That would be extremely strange.

As previously noted, CA and intel are way different.  For one thing, CA is SOF.  Most people who work intel aren't SOF and never will be.  

I can't think of any modern books that outline the "esprit" of the intel corps.  That's not really how this works.

There are a couple of decent intel-related stories in the book "Violence of Action" by Marty Skovlund.


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## Il Duce (Apr 9, 2016)

@Pawp  I’ll defer to folks like @Totentanz  with CA experience for that career path.

In the intelligence MOS’ you really break into two categories – analysis and collection.  Both tracks produce intelligence but generate it in different ways.

The analysts (35F, 35G, 35S, 35N, 35P) are categorized by the intelligence disciplines – all source, signals, and geospatial.  They learn to utilize advanced computer systems, sometimes at a desk in a hard-stand building, sometimes on the back of a HMMWV – to turn data into intelligence (called production, exploitation, and dissemination – or PED).  They then turn that intelligence into reporting – serialized (in a preset format in a time-sensitive manner) or more free-form presentations.  In all cases they need to be able to assess the intelligence and deliver products that answer intelligence requirements.  You will do a lot of reading, a lot of writing, a fair amount of briefing, and hopefully a lot of critical thinking and analysis.  You’ll need to learn and employ the skills of a Soldier but most of your work will be behind a desk – in the field or in garrison.  Some signals and geospatial analysts serve on aircrews or in specialized ground units that collect and turn data into analysis/reporting very quickly.

The collectors (35M, 35L) conduct military source operations (MSO) focused by the intelligence disciplines human intelligence (HUMINT) and counterintelligence (CI).  Both spot, assess, and recruit sources – run, then terminate the sources.  The difference is the purpose of the source.  HUMINT collectors recruit and run sources to find out things the CDR needs to know to target the enemy, CI runs sources to find out/combat what the enemy is trying to do to us.  CI agents also run investigations on internal threats.  Collectors work in the field (to spot, assess, recruit, and run sources) and in the TOC.  They have to interact with the population to do their job – but it has to be planned carefully so there is a significantly higher ratio of planning work to field work.  Collectors report the information/intelligence they gain running a source in very detailed serialized reporting.  A collector needs to be good at interacting with people, good at planning, and excellent at writing.

The new Cyber MOS is not an intelligence discipline but the work is very close in general terms to what you would do as a strategic SIGINT Soldier.

The 35T MOS is an intelligence Soldier, but they maintain the networks and systems MI Soldiers employ.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 9, 2016)

^ that was an excellent rollup.  Anyone wanting to join Army intel should take note.


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## Pawp (Apr 9, 2016)

@Marauder06 Thank you for the book suggestion. It was on my reading list and has now been bumped to top. 

@Totentanz That is very helpful and clears up a lot of my confusion about the relationship between CA and the DOD. The info I found online ran the gamut from "James Bond" to "Peace Corps playing soldier", neither of which seemed correct based upon the official Army info. 

@Il Duce Thank you for taking the time and effort to write such a succinct overview.  

I feel much better prepared to move forward in my research and come to an educated decision. 

To everyone who replied, please accept my sincere gratitude.


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## Kraut783 (Apr 9, 2016)

Here you go, some basics for MI. You might have to copy/paste the link.

http://armypubs.army.mil/doctrine/DR_pubs/dr_a/pdf/adrp2_0.pdf

(DISTRIBUTION RESTRICTION: Approved for public release; distribution is unlimited)


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## AWP (Apr 9, 2016)

Civil Affairs in Afghanistan as seen by a non-CA guy:

Day 1: Really excited to be there and help the Afghan people
Day 2: Handed list of projects, spoke to and was briefed by several gov't agencies. Hmm, lots of players, but we can do this!
Day 3: Tried to arrange host nation trucking for material shipment.
Day 4: Same as Day 3.
Day 7: Same as Day 4.
Day 15: Finally have a ship date....for next month.
Day 16: Told by CFC-A I'm moving too slow.
Day 17: DoS complained I'm moving too slow. Also, they asked for money. I told them no and they began crying. Tears do not stain 5.11's.
Day 25: Material and equipment arrive! We begin building the schoo...wait, who stole our generators and a/c units?
Day 26: Requested more generators and a/c units.
Day 27: Verbal altercation with DoS rep. Commander told me I need to manage my relationships better because "one team, one fight."
Day 34: We begin to pour concrete for the slab. Concrete instantly dries then turns to powder. HN contractor shrugs.
Day 40: Negotiate concrete contract with Turkish company for a modest 300% increase in price.
Day 41: Tried to arrange host nation trucking for material shipment.
Day 42: Same as Day 41.
Day 43: Same as Day 42.
....
Day 340: Will begin to RIP out soon, much pressure to open the school despite no students, materials, or teachers. OER's and NCOER's are already written along with award citations. Two generals, AFN, Reuters, and other media to attend.
Day 341: Attend ribbon cutting ceremony. Children brought in from other villages to fill out the class. Lie to media and tell them school materials were generously donated and "on the way." Have no means of verifying that story.
Day 342: Taliban bomb then burn the school. Distribute night letters in the village. 4 ANP desert.
Day 345: My replacement arrived today. He's really excited to be there and help the Afghan people

Two days after block leave: Drops paperwork to leave the Army. Hired on as Project Manager with a construction company based upon my "proven track record of success."


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## Brill (Apr 10, 2016)

A 345-day story of Afghanistan without a discovery/accusation of HN's boy games? Never!!!!


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## AWP (Apr 10, 2016)

lindy said:


> A 345-day story of Afghanistan without a discovery/accusation of HN's boy games? Never!!!!



I can only type so much BS in one sitting. I guess you want the Director's Cut with commentary version?


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## Salt USMC (Apr 12, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Civil Affairs in Afghanistan as seen by a non-CA guy:


*sheds a single tear*

It's....beautiful!


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## busyworks (Apr 12, 2016)

Here's a question for anyone in the know. Do CA, and PSYOP units have organic intelligence support?


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## Il Duce (Apr 12, 2016)

They have an S2 staff at the BN and higher but there are no organic MI units in CA and MISO units that I'm aware of.  I believe doctrinally those assets would be attached to their JTF HQs and come from the other units inside the JTF, like a BCT or SF BN/GRP or come from an E-MIB.


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## busyworks (Apr 12, 2016)

Il Duce said:


> They have an S2 staff at the BN and higher but there are no organic MI units in CA and MISO units that I'm aware of.  I believe doctrinally those assets would be attached to their JTF HQs and come from the other units inside the JTF, like a BCT or SF BN/GRP or come from an E-MIB.


That's also what I found in various Army publications, but I was watching a video released by USACAPOC that stated there were analyst, and HUMINT positions within their organizations, among various other support jobs. That caught my eye because there are 3 CA battalions, and a PSYOP company near me. Bummer.

Who would be on the S2 staff? A senior NCO from a 35 series job, then a bunch of soldiers with various jobs from the unit? I'm still trying to figure out how the Army works.


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## Il Duce (Apr 12, 2016)

S2s vary in size by the organization.  With grade-plate reductions the senior intelligence NCO in most S2s is now an E6.  In an organization like CA or MISO it's very likely the S2 is an O3 35D, E5/E6 35F, E4 35F, and a Soldier from the supported unit - at least at the BN.  It's possible they have a 35M in the S2 shop who is an E5.  The Army has opted to go for very small S2 sections in non-combat arms organizations - really non-maneuver organizations as FA, EN, ADA and AV all get pretty small S2 shops as well.  The idea is those intelligence shops focus on reporting the collection and analysis done by higher/adjacent units and have to do relatively little unique analysis themselves.  That idea is total bullshit.  It's likely no-one in the Army leadership really believes that - it's just the result of FM guys taking from 'less important' organizations to pay the bill for other growth.

You can look up the MTOE or TDA of an organization (the authorized personnel and equipment) through FMS Web with a CAC login.  I tried to do it just now but couldn't connect for some reason.  That's the most reliable way to figure out what a unit is authorized.  It's FOUO information but unclassified so a good way to educate yourself.  Takes a little fooling with to learn how to navigate but once you do it's an excellent resource.


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## busyworks (Apr 12, 2016)

Il Duce said:


> S2s vary in size by the organization.  With grade-plate reductions the senior intelligence NCO in most S2s is now an E6.  In an organization like CA or MISO it's very likely the S2 is an O3 35D, E5/E6 35F, E4 35F, and a Soldier from the supported unit - at least at the BN.  It's possible they have a 35M in the S2 shop who is an E5.  The Army has opted to go for very small S2 sections in non-combat arms organizations - really non-maneuver organizations as FA, EN, ADA and AV all get pretty small S2 shops as well.  The idea is those intelligence shops focus on reporting the collection and analysis done by higher/adjacent units and have to do relatively little unique analysis themselves.  That idea is total bullshit.  It's likely no-one in the Army leadership really believes that - it's just the result of FM guys taking from 'less important' organizations to pay the bill for other growth.
> 
> You can look up the MTOE or TDA of an organization (the authorized personnel and equipment) through FMS Web with a CAC login.  I tried to do it just now but couldn't connect for some reason.  That's the most reliable way to figure out what a unit is authorized.  It's FOUO information but unclassified so a good way to educate yourself.  Takes a little fooling with to learn how to navigate but once you do it's an excellent resource.


Yea, you're pretty much verifying my own assumptions. So, even if there was a slot for say 35M, there wouldn't be much "M" work to be done in an organization like that. Basically just presenting briefings based off of work from other intelligence soldiers. That's what I interpret the above information to mean. Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. Once again, sorry for all the questions. I'm ignorant to both the Army, and intelligence lingo/organization/everyday knowledge.

Hm, I'm going to see if there's an option for non-CAC logon. Most likely not, but seeing as I'm currently IRR, I do not possess a CAC. Thanks for the information though!

Now, if you're having issues logging in with your CAC that would be something I could offer YOU some information on!


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## Il Duce (Apr 12, 2016)

@busyworks one thing to remember about 35M is that it is a tradecraft-heavy MOS.  In our operationally aligned RC BNs we've got a 3-5 year training plan for HCTs just to get them up to a ready-2 status.  So, if 35M interests you in the RC you'll spend at least a couple years getting the base level training if you're spreading things out enough to have a civilian career.  There are additional opportunities for specialization.  So, you could join the unit, go to AIT, drill for a number of months, go to DSDC, drill for a few more months, go to SOC, drill for another year, and do some additional tradecraft courses.

Further, the Foundry program has a significant number of Live Environment Training (LET) opportunities for 35Ms and 35L - several of them are in my unit.  There's always opportunities to train in that MOS on an AT our short-burn ADOS tour.  You won't be doing much 35M stuff in the S2 shop on drill or AT but there's a lot of opportunities out there for individual training in MI MOS' in the RC. 

Overall I think MI leadership has invested way too heavily in individual training resources and plans over collective training - has led to some bad organizational outcomes.  However, it means for motivated troopers there are a shitload of opportunities to train and operate as an MI professional.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 12, 2016)

CA and PSYOP are great career fields if you're doing the PSYOPing or CAing.  But if you're looking to do intel work in a SOF organization, there are probably a lot of other organizations where you'd find more challenging intel work.


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## busyworks (Apr 12, 2016)

@Il Duce  very informative. I'm gonna PM you with some more specific questions that don't really pertain to this conversation. If you don't mind.

@Marauder06 Thats what I initially thought as well, but I figured I'd ask some people more knowledgable then myself before I jumped to any conclusions. Thanks again everyone. This is probably some good stuff for other curious people as well.

Although, while CA and PSYOP aren't my number one choice for a lateral move, I do believe there is interesting, and meaningful work to be done in such fields. If for some reason my intelligence aspirations don't pan out, that could be another route to pursue.


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## Etype (Apr 14, 2016)

Pawp said:


> ... looking for a book that can help me understand the espirit de corps that exists in the CA/Intelligence Army community.


They are in the 'Boring Books that Nobody Wants to Read,' section.  They are right next to the books about accountants and surveyors.

They are important and necessary jobs, but not really book material.


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