# 16 Marines in California separated for hazing



## rhanzlikusaf (Oct 12, 2017)

At least 16 Marines separated for hazing in California


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 12, 2017)

rhanzlikusaf said:


> At least 16 Marines separated for hazing in California



@rhanzlikusaf -

It makes the board slightly more interesting to read and interact with if you add a thought or opinion on the story.

Simply posting a link and moving on is almost as lame as posting a poll. 


It would appear that the General has a hardon for stopping the tradition walking the gauntlet and “pinning” new rank or blood stripes.

I kinda sorta see his point.  I nearly failed a PFT the day after I made Lance Corporal because my arms were so bruised up I could barely do pull-ups.

That said, I got as far as the paragraph below and had to stop after reading what I have bolded.

I think the General may be taking this a bit too far and making up his own rules as he goes along.

_The alleged hazing has included “outright physical assault” as well as forced alcohol consumption, *forced haircuts and making Marines do fitness exercises for not knowing certain information,* according to an email that the division commander, Maj. Gen. Eric Smith, wrote to all 1st Division commanders and sergeants major in July._


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## Gunz (Oct 12, 2017)

I got blood stripes when I made Corporal. So did every other newly-minted NCO. I'm not saying it's right, but...

Some of this really stinks. Especially what @Ooh-Rah bolded: _*forced haircuts and making Marines do fitness exercises for not knowing certain information. *_

WTF? A forced haircut is when your hair gets longer than regulation and your squad leader or PS orders you to get a haircut. It's not like they grab you and tie you down and shave your freakin head.  

Making Marines do PT for not knowing their shit or fucking up or having a dirty rifle...Nothing wrong with that. It's exercise. It makes you stronger and teaches you a lesson.

I'd call BS on at least half of this.


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## AWP (Oct 12, 2017)

Something that's missing in America in general is the concept of "consequences." You make mistakes, you pay a price. Can the penalties be too severe? Of course. Should you stop them as a result? Of course not. The punishment fits the crime and even "punishment" doesn't have to be unusual. Late to formation? Here's a smoke session or you can pull another guy's CQ shift or mow the grass or whatever. Does anyone like to police call any area? Nope, but it is a good tool when someone acts like a tool.

Sometimes you need a few minutes of "front-back-goes" followed by some quality time in the motor pool to help you reflect upon your shortcomings. If that ever becomes harassment...


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## Devildoc (Oct 12, 2017)

There has always been a fine line between enforcing discipline and hazing.  99% of those in military leadership positions know where that line is.  Not so sure they crossed it here, except for "outright physical assault" and "forced alcohol consumption."  A lot of that other stuff is ticky-tack.


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## x SF med (Oct 12, 2017)

The general population can sleep soundly and well because hard men are there to protect them, why are the hard men being disciplined for making sure those that follow are up to the task?  Yes, it can go too far, but for combat Marines, that line needs to be higher than the norm for general society and even those in non-combat roles - the job is not easy, nice, nor clean; therefore the men (and now women) who choose to join those ranks need to train to those expectations, and be held to that harder standard.

This GO needs to rethink, regroup and reassess the loss to the USMC of removing hard men/women from the combat ranks for being hard.

just my .02.

Edited for spelling and capitalization


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## Marauder06 (Oct 12, 2017)

> _*forced haircuts and making Marines do fitness exercises for not knowing certain information. *_
> 
> WTF? A forced haircut is when your hair gets longer than regulation and your squad leader or PS orders you to get a haircut. It's not like they grab you and tie you down and shave your freakin head.



To me, a forced haircut is exactly that:  someone holds you down--or at least compels you not to move--and then someone cuts your hair against your wishes.

I think that in almost all cases a "zero tolerance" policy is posturing and an excuse for poor leadership.  I also think that it's extraordinary for a general officer to retain UCMJ authority at his level for an offense like hazing.  However, if I felt "lance corporals were giving me the finger" about something, I might try to make some examples, too.


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## Marine0311 (Oct 12, 2017)

Poor for for the Marine Corps.


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## Topkick (Oct 12, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> To me, a forced haircut is exactly that: someone holds you down--or at least compels you not to move--and then someone cuts your hair against your wishes.
> 
> I think that in almost all cases a "zero tolerance" policy is posturing and an excuse for poor leadership. I also think that it's extraordinary for a general officer to retain UCMJ authority at his level for an offense like hazing. However, if I felt "lance corporals were giving me the finger" about something, I might try to make some examples, too.



Our supply sergeant used to give "free" haircuts with direction of the First Sergeant. Nobody got hurt and the soldier didn't have to pay. Usually, the soldier went to a professional for his following haircuts. Lesson learned.


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## Topkick (Oct 12, 2017)

x SF med said:


> This GO needs to rethink, regroup and reassess the loss to the USMC of removing hard men/women from the combat ranks for being hard.



Training 16 Marines, soldiers, Sailors, or Airman= a shit ton of money, blood, sweat, and tears. I agree, rethink it!


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 12, 2017)

> “They basically notify you in writing: ‘I plan on separating you,’” Stackhouse said in an interview. “You can respond in writing if you’d like. Then the general will make the decision — based upon the underlying misconduct and your petition to stay in — to separate you or not.”



Every separation packet I processed in the Army as an S1 as the middle-man between Companies and the Brigade JAG always required the Soldier to waive or select a separation board.  And that was for everything from fatties to DUI to drugs.  I'm not sure of the rules in the Corps, but I'm sure it is similar.


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## Gunz (Oct 13, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> To me, a forced haircut is exactly that:  someone holds you down--or at least compels you not to move--and then someone cuts your hair against your wishes.
> 
> I think that in almost all cases a "zero tolerance" policy is posturing and an excuse for poor leadership.  I also think that it's extraordinary for a general officer to retain UCMJ authority at his level for an offense like hazing.  However, if I felt "lance corporals were giving me the finger" about something, I might try to make some examples, too.




IMV, holding someone down and cutting their hair is assault. If that's what they mean by "forced haircut", I'm with you.


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## 8482farm (Oct 13, 2017)

Although Maj. General Smith might be handling this a little too aggressively, I can understand why he wants to send a "swift kick" through the ranks. Imagine all the new members of the military making if through, at the time, the hardest time of their lives(Basic, Boot Camp, AIT etc.), finally getting to their duty station and getting treated like complete shit by people who they're supposed to look up to. Kind of takes away all the motivation just to wake up early and show up to formation.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 13, 2017)

8482farm said:


> finally getting to their duty station and getting treated like complete shit by people who they're supposed to look up to. *Kind of takes away all the motivation just to wake up early and show up to formation*.



LOL - sounds like the average Marine's first year in the Corps to me....and yes, I agree with the bolded above.  (with a 2nd LOL)


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## Marauder06 (Oct 13, 2017)

I'm kind of thinking a little time in the brig and some NJP might be enough to send the message.  Separating all of those Marines seems a bit over-reactive, especially if the hazing wasn't particularly egregious.  If a little jail time and some extra duty aren't enough for the Lance Criminals to get the message, maybe then up it to GTFO.


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## Devildoc (Oct 13, 2017)

Some of it is criminal. Forced alcohol consumption, physical abuse, that's illegal, then separation after legal proceedings. Some of the other stuff, there could be good Marines that just make a bad call, whose careers just need to be guided with a little bit of leadership and a little bit of discipline. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.


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## CDG (Oct 13, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> Some of it is criminal. Forced alcohol consumption, physical abuse, that's illegal, then separation after legal proceedings. Some of the other stuff, there could be good marines that just make a bad call, whose careers just need to be guided with a little bit of leadership and a little bit of discipline. Don't throw the baby out with the bathwater.



I agree that it's illegal, but it also has been a part of military culture for a long time.  I think that factor needs to be taken into account.  Guys had the experiences they had when they were growing up in whatever branch, and may have been taught that certain things are needed.  Some stuff guys will endure voluntarily that would still be considered abuse (blood wings, blood stripes, etc.)  I think zero tolerance is a dangerous and counter-productive policy.  These Marines should absolutely be punished, to send the message that regardless of how they were brought up some things won't fly anymore.  I disagree with separating them though.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 13, 2017)

Does the Corps still put dudes in the Brig and bring them back to the Fleet.  I never saw that in the Army, we just separated problems.


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## Devildoc (Oct 13, 2017)

CDG said:


> I agree that it's illegal, but it also has been a part of military culture for a long time.  I think that factor needs to be taken into account.  Guys had the experiences they had when they were growing up in whatever branch, and may have been taught that certain things are needed.  Some stuff guys will endure voluntarily that would still be considered abuse (blood wings, blood stripes, etc.)  I think zero tolerance is a dangerous and counter-productive policy.  These Marines should absolutely be punished, to send the message that regardless of how they were brought up some things won't fly anymore.  I disagree with separating them though.



There is a difference between military culture, enforcing discipline, intensive training, blood stripes, blood wings, tacking crows, all of that, and assault and battery.  And there is no room, zero, for forced alcohol consumption. I think there's a fine line between what is legal and what is illegal. The stuff that is illegal should be penalized under the fullest extent of the UCMJ, with time served followed by separation.  The rest, those people can be penalized, mentored, trained, and continue on.


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## Topkick (Oct 13, 2017)

Taking away someone's dignity is much different than enforcing customs and traditions and forcing someone to drink alcohol is certainly intolerable. I do think you have to look at the whole situation and decide if a talented young GI made a mistake and learned from it, or is he just forever a douche. What are the patterns?  I did some dumb shit as a young soldier and I am grateful that I had a second chance.


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## CDG (Oct 13, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> There is a difference between military culture, enforcing discipline, intensive training, blood stripes, blood wings, tacking crows, all of that, and assault and battery.  And there is no room, zero, for forced alcohol consumption. I think there's a fine line between what is legal and what is illegal. The stuff that is illegal should be penalized under the fullest extent of the UCMJ, with time served followed by separation.  The rest, those people can be penalized, mentored, trained, and continue on.



Re: forced alcohol consumption.  I would like to know more about that specific charge.  If it was holding someone down, or tying them up, and forcibly putting alcohol in them, I agree 100%.  That's pretty extreme though.  I wonder if it was more along the lines of peer pressure to keep drinking even when the servicemember wanted to stop.  I wouldn't classify that as forced consumption, unless direct threats of violence were made.  To be clear, I am in no way saying anything here is right.  I am only arguing for punishment within the service, as opposed to separation.


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## Topkick (Oct 13, 2017)

CDG said:


> I wonder if it was more along the lines of peer pressure to keep drinking even when the servicemember wanted to stop. I wouldn't classify that as forced consumption



My first thoughts exactly. When you drink with the boys, you put yourself in a situation unless you get out early while you still can. I got that T- shirt.


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## Teufel (Oct 14, 2017)

Don't ask a General officer to solve your problems for you. General Smith took command in June and was immediately presented with three separate allegations of hazing in two different battalions in the 7th Marine Regiment. Four more allegations popped up in the next two months. The punishment is a bit severe but it is the fastest way to address what appears to be a systemic issue. Generals rarely enforce discipline measures at their level but when they do it tends to be a devastating area effect weapon. 

This is honestly a leadership failure at the company and battalion level. Hazing cases like these are normally handled at the battalion level. It appears that the Commanding General did not have much confidence that his subordinate commanders could properly resolve these problems at their level. I would imagine that the commanders of 2/7, 3/7, 3rd Tracks and 7th Marines are glowing Kelvin hot right now.


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## rhanzlikusaf (Oct 14, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @rhanzlikusaf -
> 
> It makes the board slightly more interesting to read and interact with if you add a thought or opinion on the story.
> 
> ...


I didn't really think of anything to add at the time I but thought some people might enjoy it on the site, I'll make sure to add something next time. Thanks for you help.


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## CDG (Oct 14, 2017)

rhanzlikusaf said:


> I didn't really think of anything to add at the time I but thought some people might enjoy it on the site, I'll make sure to add something next time. Thanks for you help.



Just that right there would have been fine. You don't need to have an in depth opinion, or a source backed essay, or anything else like that.  Just something that lets us know why you posted it. 

"I saw this story, and I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, but I'm interested in hearing the opinions of the other members here."


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## BloodStripe (Oct 18, 2017)

x SF med said:


> The general population can sleep soundly and well because hard men are there to protect them, why are the hard men being disciplined for making sure those that follow are up to the task?  Yes, it can go too far, but for combat Marines, that line needs to be higher than the norm for general society and even those in non-combat roles - the job is not easy, nice, nor clean; therefore the men (and now women) who choose to join those ranks need to train to those expectations, and be held to that harder standard.
> 
> This GO needs to rethink, regroup and reassess the loss to the USMC of removing hard men/women from the combat ranks for being hard.
> 
> ...



The flip side to the argument is that infantry (or any combat MOS) Marines should also be held to a higher standard when they break the rules, and rules are currently in place from this type of activity happening. While I am all for physical activities as a form of punishment (read as pushups, carrying heavy weights, etc), with certain caveats, and "earning your bloodstripe", there needs to exist a line and forcing someone to drink alcohol certainly crosses that. Seven (7) reports of hazing in a week, with each report having to go to Congress as a result of the 2017 NDAA, I would image the CG wants this type of activity to cease and desist.


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## Devildoc (Oct 18, 2017)

CDG said:


> Re: forced alcohol consumption.  I would like to know more about that specific charge.  If it was holding someone down, or tying them up, and forcibly putting alcohol in them, I agree 100%.  That's pretty extreme though.  I wonder if it was more along the lines of peer pressure to keep drinking even when the servicemember wanted to stop.  I wouldn't classify that as forced consumption, unless direct threats of violence were made.  To be clear, I am in no way saying anything here is right.  I am only arguing for punishment within the service, as opposed to separation.



Damn, I am just seeing this for the first time today.  I hate it when work, family, and school get in the way of my interwebs activities .

I just took that quote at face value, "forced alcohol consumption," as in the story.  I certainly get the peer pressure.  In both cases it's wrong (having been with a doc who told a parent their daughter was dead from alcohol overdose during a pledge initiation).  I am particularly prickly about alcohol-related events (I am not a totaller; I have been know to slam a beer or 20, along with booze).

I think hazing is like defining 'art'....hard to define it, we know it when we see it; and a slippery slope between Mona Lisa and dogs playing poker (which I love).


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 18, 2017)

I guess I should have spoken up when tab spec4s were walking on me while doing flutter kicks reciting the Ranger creed, etc....


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 18, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> tab spec4s were walking on me while doing flutter kicks reciting the Ranger creed, etc....



That was not very nice of them.


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## Topkick (Oct 18, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> I guess I should have spoken up when tab spec4s were walking on me while doing flutter kicks reciting the Ranger creed, etc....



I can't imagine a tight knit military unit without some degree of hazing....ur i mean initiation.


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## rhanzlikusaf (Oct 23, 2017)

CDG said:


> Just that right there would have been fine. You don't need to have an in depth opinion, or a source backed essay, or anything else like that.  Just something that lets us know why you posted it.
> 
> "I saw this story, and I'm not sure how I feel about it yet, but I'm interested in hearing the opinions of the other members here."


Thanks man I appreciate the feedback.


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## Marine0311 (Oct 23, 2017)

Topkick said:


> I can't imagine a tight knit military unit without some degree of hazing....ur i mean initiation.



My 1STSGT always said something like that.


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## Topkick (Oct 23, 2017)

Marine0311 said:


> My 1STSGT always said something like that.



Reminds me of the scene in Lone Survivor when they made the newbie get up and entertain. Nobody got hurt but he had to show his ass a little. Stuff like that is fun and harmless but still a rite of passage. One of my units made the FNGs dress up like the Village People and sing one of their songs. It wasn't always a pleasant experience.


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## Marine0311 (Oct 24, 2017)

Topkick said:


> Reminds me of the scene in Lone Survivor when they made the newbie get up and entertain. Nobody got hurt but he had to show his ass a little. Stuff like that is fun and harmless but still a rite of passage. One of my units made the FNGs dress up like the Village People and sing one of their songs. It wasn't always a pleasant experience.



Embrace the suck.


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## TLDR20 (Oct 24, 2017)

This is an interesting case. To me the difference between a smoke session, a beat down and hazing always would have to do with the purpose and the state of the individual inflicting the punishment. 

I saw an instructor(who was probably drunk at the time, and later had his tabbed pulled) make a dude low crawl 200 meters across gravel and hot asphalt for an unsecured canteen. That wasn’t constructive, it didn’t lead to increased esprit de corps, it just made me and many others realize that no one was actually looking out for my well being or safety while I was in SOPC hold, and the instructors could literally do whatever they wanted. It was a good motivator to get the fuck out of there though. 

A better example of a similar thing that did work and wasn’t hazing was when a SOPC instructor found an unsecured locker and made the stud carry all of his stuff everywhere he went for 5 days, PX, formation, everywhere. He never left his locker unsecured after that. That wasn’t sadistic punishment, but rather a corrective action. Blood wings/stripes/tabs and such are a grey area as to me that does indeed carry a mystique and welcomes the recipient into the brotherhood.


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## Topkick (Oct 24, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> This is an interesting case. To me the difference between a smoke session, a beat down and hazing always would have to do with the purpose and the state of the individual inflicting the punishment.
> 
> I saw an instructor(who was probably drunk at the time, and later had his tabbed pulled) make a dude low crawl 200 meters across gravel and hot asphalt for an unsecured canteen. That wasn’t constructive, it didn’t lead to increased esprit de corps, it just made me and many others realize that no one was actually looking out for my well being or safety while I was in SOPC hold, and the instructors could literally do whatever they wanted. It was a good motivator to get the fuck out of there though.
> 
> A better example of a similar thing that did work and wasn’t hazing was when a SOPC instructor found an unsecured locker and made the stud carry all of his stuff everywhere he went for 5 days, PX, formation, everywhere. He never left his locker unsecured after that. That wasn’t sadistic punishment, but rather a corrective action. Blood wings/stripes/tabs and such are a grey area as to me that does indeed carry a mystique and welcomes the recipient into the brotherhood.



The punishment should fit the crime, as in your second example.👍


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## Devildoc (Oct 24, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> A better example of a similar thing that did work and wasn’t hazing was when a SOPC instructor found an unsecured locker and made the stud carry all of his stuff everywhere he went for 5 days, PX, formation, everywhere. He never left his locker unsecured after that. That wasn’t sadistic punishment, but rather a corrective action.



In Navy boot camp we did not have foot lockers but we had real wall lockers.  One guy did not lock his, the RDC (Recruit Division Commander--i.e., DI/DS) made him throw everything into his seabag and carry it all day, every day for a few days.  At night, he had to sleep with it.  It was effective.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 24, 2017)

Bootcamp 1989'  San Diego, CA

A recruit next to me got under the covers before getting the command "sleep".  D.I. lost his shit and asked 'why'?  
"recruit was cold, sir!"

D.I. had as all get out of our racks with our extra wool blankets in hand, we then 'carefully' placed said blanket on top of "Private Frigid" (as he was known for the rest of bootcamp).  He was told if any of those blankets were removed overnight, he would 'pay' in the morning.  Must of dehydrated the shit out of him, as he fell out of a run the next day.

Certainly not the worst I have saw, but one of the most memorable.


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 24, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Bootcamp 1989'  San Diego, CA
> 
> A recruit next to me got under the covers before getting the command "sleep".  D.I. lost his shit and asked 'why'?
> "recruit was cold, sir!"
> ...



HAHAHA


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## BloodStripe (Oct 24, 2017)

During a pre patrol inspection I discovered one of my Marines forgot water. No big deal, our FOB was small and I sent him to go get a few bottles so he could fill up in Camelback. When said Marine did not return for nearly 20 mins I sent his team leader to go find him. Lance Coolio thought he could duck into the MWR tent and call his girl back home for a few mins. After we got back, I made said Marine move water cases from the water supply point on our FOB to our hooch area. At first he was moving a case at a time, then he grabbed his pack and realized he could move two cases at a time. After a few rounds I'm about to tell him we have enough water when I see him serving as a ground guide to a fork truck. He tracked down a KBR employee and had him move an entire pallet to our area. I couldn't even be mad at that point. He learned his lesson and devolved some strategic thinking skills along the way. It was a win for everyone.


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## Topkick (Oct 24, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> When said Marine did not return for nearly 20 mins I sent his team leader to go find him. Lance Coolio thought he could duck into the MWR tent and call his girl back home for a few mins.



Not cool. Especially when you when you didn't even make a big issue out of forgetting water in the first place.....but his E-4 mafia- like skills in finding a more efficient way of getting things done is  admirable


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## TLDR20 (Oct 24, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> During a pre patrol inspection I discovered one of my Marines forgot water. No big deal, our FOB was small and I sent him to go get a few bottles so he could fill up in Camelback. When said Marine did not return for nearly 20 mins I sent his team leader to go find him. Lance Coolio thought he could duck into the MWR tent and call his girl back home for a few mins. After we got back, I made said Marine move water cases from the water supply point on our FOB to our hooch area. At first he was moving a case at a time, then he grabbed his pack and realized he could move two cases at a time. After a few rounds I'm about to tell him we have enough water when I see him serving as a ground guide to a fork truck. He tracked down a KBR employee and had him move an entire pallet to our area. I couldn't even be mad at that point. He learned his lesson and devolved some strategic thinking skills along the way. It was a win for everyone.



Outfuckingstanding!


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