# Ways to mitigate DUIs at the company level



## dirtmover (Feb 19, 2013)

Over this past 4 day weekend we had two DUIs and in the past month we have had a total of 4.  Right now the company is in damage control mode.  I am open to ideas on options that I can bring up to the chain of command.  I have given my number to the entire company.  I very rarely drink there for I feel that I am a viable choice to be available to give SMs a ride home.  

I have no patience for drunk driving and personally experienced it almost rip my community apart.  

So my CO is looking for ways to mitigate DUIs and an incentive program for those who do the right thing.


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## TLDR20 (Feb 19, 2013)

Tell people to be grown-ups.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 19, 2013)

How is the example being set inside the company?  Is there a culture that encourages heavy drinking and other risky behavior?  How involved are the NCOs in the lives of the Soldiers?


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## dirtmover (Feb 19, 2013)

Cback I said the same thing in or 0430 meeting today.

Well 2 of the DUIs were NCOs.  I don't see any glamorisation of a alcohol.  To me it seems like we have no cohesion in the company...all it is work work work.  Very rarely do I hear of platoons doing anything together outside of work.  Majority of the NCOs where joes and came up through the ranks in this company.  Nobody is afraid of UCMJ and care even less about counselings.


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## policemedic (Feb 19, 2013)

Based on what you said above, it seems your problem is a poor command climate exacerbated by NCOs who are phoning it in (present company excluded, of course).


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## pardus (Feb 19, 2013)

policemedic said:


> Based on what you said above, it seems your problem is a poor command climate exacerbated by NCOs who are phoning it in (present company excluded, of course).


 
Agreed.

Vast majority of problems start at the top and work down through low moral etc... Sounds like this is the case here.


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 19, 2013)

dirtmover said:


> Nobody is afraid of UCMJ and care even less about counselings.


 
Aside from moving in some new blood, start putting some of the offending NCOs out of the Army to create room for some new NCOs.


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## Chopstick (Feb 19, 2013)

I know of a certain Gunnery Sgt. that is now a Sgt.  Dont drink and drive! :-"


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## AWP (Feb 19, 2013)

Problems rise and fall on leadership. If the officers aren't willing to deal with NCO's, and/ or the NCO's are unwilling to deal their soldiers, then any changes made will fail. You can't stop the one-off cases, but when you start seeing what you described? I couldn't attribute it to anything but a failure of leadership.


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## SkrewzLoose (Feb 19, 2013)

dirtmover said:


> Over this past 4 day weekend we had two DUIs and in the past month we have had a total of 4. Right now the company is in damage control mode. I am open to ideas on options that I can bring up to the chain of command. I have given my number to the entire company. I very rarely drink there for I feel that I am a viable choice to be available to give SMs a ride home.
> 
> I have no patience for drunk driving and personally experienced it almost rip my community apart.
> 
> So my CO is looking for ways to mitigate DUIs *and an incentive program for those who do the right thing.*


An incentive program for not getting a DUI/ARI?  What's next, prizes for people who don't commit sexual assault?  
As has been said already, it's a break down in leadership.  The first time you ignore a problem and allow it to continue, you've set the precedent.


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## dirtmover (Feb 19, 2013)

I know, I know, I Know.  I thought that was udder ludicrous but alas it came out of the mouth of babes, or in my case the CO.  My idea was to make the offenders lives extra miserable, but that just got me dirty looks.  When a soldier doesn't want to come ask for anything from you as an NCO you need to check yourself.  Soldiers don't trust the leaders to take care of their issues.


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## AWP (Feb 19, 2013)

dirtmover said:


> alas it came out of the mouth of babes, or in my case the CO.




I'm about to lose my mind at this statement. I'm not surprised, but taht's...insane. Positive reinforcement has a place, but not in this case and not with this topic. FFS, we'e talking about actions that can kill people.




> My idea was to make the offenders lives extra miserable, but that just got me dirty looks. When a soldier doesn't want to come ask for anything from you as an NCO you need to check yourself. Soldiers don't trust the leaders to take care of their issues.


 
Bingo.

I'm currently reading about the British Army in WWI. I need to go back and cover the relevant passages, but the author cited a clear decline in trust between the common soldier and his leadership, starting about 1916. I'll dig that up tonight and re-read it.


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## dirtmover (Feb 19, 2013)

Free could you let me know the name of the book.  It might help me get through to them about this asinine BS.


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## AWP (Feb 19, 2013)

dirtmover said:


> Free could you let me know the name of the book. It might help me get through to them about this asinine BS.


 
_The First Day on the Somme_ by Martin Middlebrook. The relevant passage is below, though the author hasn't yet (as far as I've read) tied this in with combat effectiveness.



> The British soldier had gone to war full of patriotism and enthusiasm. He had been led to believe that the German was a barbarian who had trampled over half of Europe, raped women, murdered babies and committed every possible atrocity. He believed, also, that Britain had the most capable generals and the government and people at home were solidly behind him. To many it was more like a crusade than a political war. But after his arrival at the front the soldier’s feelings changed. Although he didn’t see many Germans he came to realize that his opponent was an honest fighter, a patriotic man, who loved his Fatherland as much as the British soldier his country, and that it was the ordinary soldiers who shared the danger and miseryof the trenches. This change of attitude by the British soldiers was not immediate, nor was it universal, but it was very widespread.
> 
> As the British soldier softened his attitude towards the enemy in their trenches a few yards away, his feelings towards those behind him hardened. One of the controversies of the First World War was the extent to which the ordinary soldier lost faith in his generals. Having been in contact with over 500 men of 1916, I have come to this opinion. Initially, the British generals held the complete trust of their men. By their _apparent_ inability to solve the stalemate and their _apparent_ indifference to the sufferings of their men they gradually lost this trust. By 1916 the process had only just started; even by 1918 it was still not complete, for some had faith in the generals to the end. The real bitterness and hatred did not show itself until after the war was over and the men realized the full extent of the tragedy. Even then, a few remained loyal to their old leaders.


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## Marine0311 (Feb 19, 2013)

Impound your car for 6 months to one year. Walk everywhere on base. If you need to ride somewhere far ride your own bicycle. You are not allowed to accept rides from someone else. Write 1,000 words in APA format on the dangers of drunk driving. Visit the local morgue to view those who died as a result of drunk driving.


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 19, 2013)

It is amazing that things have reached this point, but then again, not much amazes me...our practice use to be to take away a guy's free time.  All of it in lieu of UCMJ action, unless it was an issue such as this or one the CoC had already gotten their hands on.  When dealing with NCOs or Os, I still feel either reduction in rank or a straight up discharge is the way to go.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 19, 2013)

I’m not a fan of the DWI laws here in the states, I don’t like how they are enforced or how the Military deals with soldiers who get arrested and or convicted with DWI offenses. People make mistakes, people fuck up and unless someone is killed or property is damaged, people deserve a second chance.

That said, your CO needs to have a come to Jesus with the units leadership (NCO’s and Officers). He needs to sacrifice one of the offenders, and make life hell around the unit. Extra work, extra field time, extra bullshit tasks, or as we used to call it “he needs to show them his devil horns”. The CO needs to reestablish himself as a ball buster (i.e. you fuck up and I will destroy your life) and keep the heat up for about 6 months. After which he can readjust his fire as he sees fit. Any soldier who fucks up gets the hammer dropped on him (i.e. max UCMJ or chapter them out). No favoritism, no special deals, no exceptions. The CO and 1SG need to establish that the behavior is not acceptable, that it will be punished to the maximum and without regard to past performances. Soldiers who care, will shape up, the soldiers who do not care, will be shipped out.


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## SkrewzLoose (Feb 19, 2013)

JAB said:


> I’m not a fan of the DWI laws here in the states, I don’t like how they are enforced or how the Military deals with soldiers who get arrested and or convicted with DWI offenses. *People make mistakes, people fuck up and unless someone is killed or property is damaged, people deserve a second chance.*
> 
> That said, your CO needs to have a come to Jesus with the units leadership (NCO’s and Officers). He needs to sacrifice one of the offenders, and make life hell around the unit. Extra work, extra field time, extra bullshit tasks, or as we used to call it “he needs to show them his devil horns”. The CO needs to reestablish himself as a ball buster (i.e. you fuck up and I will destroy your life) and keep the heat up for about 6 months. After which he can readjust his fire as he sees fit. Any soldier who fucks up gets the hammer dropped on him (i.e. max UCMJ or chapter them out). No favoritism, no special deals, no exceptions. The CO and 1SG need to establish that the behavior is not acceptable, that it will be punished to the maximum and without regard to past performances. Soldiers who care, will shape up, the soldiers who do not care, will be shipped out.


So they can damage property or worse, kill someone on their "second chance"??  

Agree 100% with the rest.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 19, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> *An incentive program for not getting a DUI/ARI? What's next, prizes for people who don't commit sexual assault?*
> As has been said already, it's a break down in leadership. The first time you ignore a problem and allow it to continue, you've set the precedent.


 
Why not, we already have an award for Soldiers *who manage to not get an Article-15 for three consecutive years.* And *a combat award (that outranks the Bronze Star) for people who never see "combat." *


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## Marauder06 (Feb 19, 2013)

What kind of unit are you in?


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## Marine0311 (Feb 19, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> What kind of unit are you in?


 
What kind of of unit are you in that allows this crap from top to bottom. It sounds like a culture of piss poor leadership.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 19, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> So they can damage property or worse, kill someone on their "second chance"??


 
I don’t really want to dive off into the subject too much but yes, unless someone was hurt, or property is damaged, I don’t believe the punishments should be as strong as they are. I am not saying they should not face a consequence, I just don’t think they should be as life changing. On the other hand, someone who gets drunk and kills someone because they were driving should face the death penalty. Someone who damages property should go to prison and should have to pay for any and all damages, etc. But someone who gets pulled over and who has had a few, should not be hulled off to jail, fined heavily, have their driving license suspended, put on probation, most likely lose their job and have a criminal record, when they did not hurt anyone or damage any property. I went through it, and I am still paying for it, and the circumstances around it, IMHO were complete bullshit.

Just my $0.02


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## Marauder06 (Feb 19, 2013)

Marine0311 said:


> What kind of of unit are you in that allows this crap from top to bottom. It sounds like a culture of piss poor leadership.


 
lol, that too but I meant what kind of unit as in schoolhouse, line unit, SOF, etc.


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## dirtmover (Feb 20, 2013)

In an engineer line company.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 20, 2013)

Interesting.  Why are you having meetings at 0430?  Is that a regular thing or in response to the DUIs?


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## Crusader74 (Feb 20, 2013)

Were the DUI's on base or off base?


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## DA SWO (Feb 20, 2013)

JAB said:


> That said, your CO needs to have a come to Jesus with the units leadership (NCO’s and Officers). He needs to sacrifice one of the offenders, and make life hell around the unit. Extra work, extra field time, extra bullshit tasks, or as we used to call it “he needs to show them his devil horns”. The CO needs to reestablish himself as a ball buster (i.e. you fuck up and I will destroy your life) and keep the heat up for about 6 months. After which he can readjust his fire as he sees fit. Any soldier who fucks up gets the hammer dropped on him (i.e. max UCMJ or chapter them out). No favoritism, no special deals, no exceptions. The CO and 1SG need to establish that the behavior is not acceptable, that it will be punished to the maximum and without regard to past performances. Soldiers who care, will shape up, the soldiers who do not care, will be shipped out.


 
The 1st Sgt needs to know that his job is on the line too.

Next DUI gets a Company Grade Art-15 with max fine/bust. (Company CO can not announce that prior to the event).

Guy after that gets chapter action started in addition to the max punishment.

Guy after that gets his max punishment handed to him from the BN Cdr, along with Chapter Action.


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## RetPara (Feb 20, 2013)

DUI used to be a Bn level NJP. 

Hard to believe that Co Cdr  & 1SG don't already have bullseyes on their backs already.


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## Ranger Psych (Feb 20, 2013)

next shit that happens everyone goes on an armor and promask run for 2 hours.

Then give a 30 minute class on how the fuck to be a responsible alcoholic, including the concept of a designated driver, the people in the company who are in the "I don't give a fuck, just call me before you decide to try to drive drunk"

I mean, my controls for my guys were this:

A: I did CQ alot. I was on the roster basically every week and basically always had a "3 day" because of it, and made some cash... so I had a good pulse on what my guys were doing.
B: I'd pop in and see what the fuck was going on with the guys other nights of the week if it was a holiday or otherwise w/e.  "AT Ecarry on, I see 4 cases of beer what's the occasion and why didn't you invite me"
C: 21st birthdays got a free DD from me with my truck, which meant the birthday man and 4 of the guys could tag along right off the bat in the crew cab, more if someone else volunteered to be a DD (which usually happened since I always seemed to get the "free DD" perks regardless of where we went and if they actually had any... show up with a platoon size element and the sober guys are gonna get free shit since you're bringing in cash)

D: I didn't give a fuck. You have an issue, CALL ME. Call your own fucking team leader first, but if all else fails CALL ME. I have a trailer, I can load up your ride and get you home safe. We'll worry about paying the piper when you want to get your rig off my trailer.

E: Batt, as well as the company and BN in legland had a program of basically 1SG/CSM's petty cash. Company store funds could/would be used with hand reciept to servicemember to pay for the taxi to return them home safely. Anchorage also had some programs that we shared with the guys, as well as the base itself had the drunk van that'd pick people up.

F: Batt I'd go pick guys up since I was a barracks rat, all the time. If I went out to drink, I wasn't driving and I was crashing at someone's place off post. If I was sober in the barracks? I'd come harass CQ for no reason other than to entertain them and myself (I'm that guy that'd poke at a SGT who he got along with, heaven forbid I get pushups it just means better PT scores) and I'd get a call or be around for the call when people needed a ride home... Cavalry time with the company truck.


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## HappyEngineer (Feb 22, 2013)

Marine0311 said:


> Impound your car for 6 months to one year. Walk everywhere on base. If you need to ride somewhere far ride your own bicycle. You are not allowed to accept rides from someone else. Write 1,000 words in APA format on the dangers of drunk driving. Visit the local morgue to view those who died as a result of drunk driving.


Wish I could like that comment.


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## HappyEngineer (Feb 22, 2013)

I would use a little Tact, suggest to the Commander that the senior leadership step up. Maybe have the Seniors hold some sort of NCOPD or Sensing and give them "Junior NCO's" the cold hard truths. Those truths are the ones that SMA Chandler spoke of in Notes from Sergeant Major of the Army publication that can be found with a simple google search or reading the NCO Journal publication that the Army has. And if it is the Seniors where the problem lies, suggest some cold hard fact to them as well, Tactfully of course. :blkeye: Hope I'm not out of my lane. Below is a direct quote of SMA Chandlers about the kind problem you spoke of.

*Average Performers:*NCOs / Soldiers that are just average performers may find it difficult to stay in the Army or in 
their current MOS when it comes time to re-enlist.
For those that receive a no on the values portion of the NCOER, receive a poor NCOER, 
DUI, or Article 15 may find it difficult to stay in the Army.
If they are allowed to stay they could be forced to fill a MOS, other than
their current one, that the Army needs help in filling.   He used the phrase
"Tightening up the ranks" a lot tonight.


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## pardus (Feb 22, 2013)

Chandler must have come up with that during all of his time in combat deployments... :-"


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## HappyEngineer (Feb 22, 2013)

I'm not saying I back the man in every aspect. I am saying that he has put a standard out and it is the jobs of NCO's at every level to ensure we do adhere to it. The standard of not tolerating  Drinking and Driving is not new either. I mean it may not be as serious as having your hands in your pockets but its pretty serious stuff! I wouldn't want a drunk driver to hit you on the road and I wouldn't them to hit my family either. The NCO's where wrong, SMA being a valorous Combat Vet has nothing to do with a standard that makes sense.
Please don't kill me.:-"


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## pardus (Feb 22, 2013)

HappyEngineer said:


> I'm not saying I back the man in every aspect. I am saying that he has put a standard out and it is the jobs of NCO's at every level to ensure we do adhere to it. The standard of not tolerating Drinking and Driving is not new either. I mean it may not be as serious as having your hands in your pockets but its pretty serious stuff! I wouldn't want a drunk driver to hit you on the road and I wouldn't them to hit my family either. The NCO's where wrong, SMA being a valorous Combat Vet has nothing to do with a standard that makes sense.
> Please don't kill me.:-"


 
lol, no you are correct. 
I get very cynical and a little pissed when I hear about "Standards" which for the most part is lip service to what suits the powers that be at the time.

I actually thought about writing to Chandler with regards to the suicide problem in the Army, and telling him he could make large steps in preventing it if he instituted real change that stopped Soldiers getting fucked over constantly. Particularly by incompetent, uncaring and corrupt NCOs.


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## 0699 (Feb 24, 2013)

Set the standard.
Maintain the standard.
Punish those that fail to meet the standard.
Easy shit.

IME, too many people are willing to accept excuses for shit like this. There is a standard. Maintain that standard by maxing out the offenders. If nothing else, it will make others go "I don't want that to happen to me..." Assuming all the normal control measures (arrive alive program, shit like that) are in place, there will always be a certain percentage that won't meet the standard. Hammer the fuck out of the offenders.

_PS: Mass punishment doesn't work.  If the unit has an eight hour safety stand down because four turds got DUIs, all you end up doing is punishing the guys that didn't do anything wrong.  99% will do the right thing; don't punish them for the sins of the few._


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## Ranger Psych (Feb 25, 2013)

I dunno, an unknown distance run in promask, armor and full ACU's can be a convincing feature that you're a unit, you succeed and fail as one.


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## Crusader74 (Feb 25, 2013)

If Soldiers are being convicted in a civilian court for DUI's and fined, that should have a bearing on their Job, whether  a demotion or getting grounded (not permitted to drive Military Vehicles) for a period of time. I know guys here who got convicted have been pulled from deploying Overseas due to a drink driving charge.. 

A fine of over €500 would mean not being reengaged for service.


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