# Our broken awards system



## Teufel (Feb 5, 2010)

This is a branch COA post: I think our awards system is very broken and I will post some articles to spark some debate. 

From Owen West (Force Recon platoon commander and Bing West's son): http://www.slate.com/id/2107438/

"The current medal gap actually has three dimensions. First, the different services have different criteria for the same medals. Second, support staff are rewarded more generously than are soldiers on the front lines. Third, officers receive medals that are superior to those given to the enlisted ranks.
Start with the variance among the military branches. The Air Force awarded 2,425 Bronze Stars and 21 Silver Stars from March 2002 to August 2004 for the Iraq and Afghanistan wars. Twenty-seven airmen were killed in combat during that time, making the Air Force's ratio of top-level ground-combat medals to fatalities 91-to-1. (This figure doesn't include medals awarded for airborne bravery.) As of July 31, 2004, the Army had awarded 17,498 Bronze Stars and 133 Silver Stars in Operation Iraqi Freedom, while 636 soldiers have died, an awards ratio of 27-to-1. And the Marine Corps has awarded just 701 Bronze Stars, 12 Silver Stars, and six Navy Crosses (the Navy's second-highest award) for combat in Iraq, while 264 Marines died—a ratio of less than 3-to-1. Is the Marine Corps too stingy or are the other services too liberal?"

"Compounding this problem are rules that let support staff win prestigious medals out of proportion to the risks they incur. While the Silver Star is awarded only for heroic achievement under fire, one category of Bronze Star—known as the BS, given for meritorious service in a combat zone—is technically open to those serving miles from the front lines."


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## LimaOscarSierraTango (Feb 5, 2010)

I was hoping there was more to this.  I agree 100% that the system is broken.

I think it's bullshit that we handed out 5 Bronze Stars to Sr NCOs and Officers that sat in the TOC drinking coffee all day, ordering pogie bait, and watching tv while the people that may have actually earned them picked up ARCOMs.  Ok, no one from my Company actually did anything to earn a BS on that deployment, but there was a few lower enlisted that should have received MSMs for the hard work they did to keep the company running smooth since Sr leadership was lacking.  I also think some medals are handed out too easily.    It's a Good Ole Boy thing, and a load of crap.  I didn't think it was fair that BN told our people that E-4s and below don't earn awards higher than ARCOMs, so don't bother submitting them.

Personally, I am not big on awards.  The recognition is nice, but I don't like to be in the spotlight and I am there to do a job.  I am not there to try and earn medals.


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## Th3 Maelstr0m (Feb 5, 2010)

I agree completely. ive seen plenty of guys get Commendation Medals & NAMs with combat v's & never been in a firefight or never did anything remotely close to what their citation reads while an enlisted guy i served with got only got a NAM (they didnt even give him a combat v) for (among other things) being engaged 3 times (each time from multiple locations) in one patrol, and each time directing his squad's fire, resulting in at least 3 enemy KIA. That same guy watched his squad leader get a NAM for training Iraqi police, leading 150 patrols, finding an IED, and fortifying their COP. The problem was that the squad leader did absolutely none of this, my buddy did. The squad leader would not even send up sitreps b/c he thought his voice sounded weird on the radio. the squad leader would try to stop every day in the same spot on a patrol for a smoke break. but b/c it we were ten enlisted guys manning a COP with the high rank being Cpl (the squad leader), the BC thought he was king ding-a-ling.
I have seen the same problem limaoscarsierratango speaks of with the Commendation Medals. When my platoon commander recommended my buddie's NAM (w/ no v) get bumped up to a higher medal, his CO said that the BT is does not consider Commendation Medals to anyone under the rank of E6. 
On the flip side, I have seen some support guys attached to us grunts and put some of the grunts to shame in work ethic, but the platoon sergeant was not about to put in for a "p.o.g" to get a NAM before his grunts, even if they did nothing to earn one. this was unfortunate and disgraceful.
While I too was never big on awards (most of my friends who have won the bigger medals say the same), I do think that my buddies who have done great things should be recognized, even if they prefer to remain "another face in the crowd." its good for morale and every now and then the lowly grunts need to know someone notices the exceptional ones. Enlisted often get jipped on awards while their officers get showered in them.
Of course, I am not saying that some officers dont deserve them. Cpt. Bryan Stann (a CO in my old battalion) earned his Silver Star and then some. As did my BC Lt. Col. Desgrosseilliers in Fallujah. My platoon commander in my second deployment, however, who could not grasp the idea even the most basic idea of avenues of approach, did not do anything to earn his Commendation Medal.
Sorry for the long post, but ive personally seen a lot of my fellow Marines screwed over on meritorious promotions and awards (as im sure we all have), so this subject hits home.


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## Ajax (Feb 5, 2010)

It has been broken for longer than OIF and OEF.  For example, my first award in the military was submitted as an ARCOM.  It made it up to Division before being downgraded to an AAM.  Reason:  I was a PFC.  This rank = merit system has carried over to the combat zone.  It highlights a larger problem with our military force overall.  That problem being that largely, our military treats the combat arena as a garrison rather than a combat mission.  There is no easy fix for this.  As long as people treat the military as a career, there will be career progression checklists.  Can that person be blamed?  I don't know.

The current, "check the block" system is bad for morale, both for those serving and those who have served.  It cheapens the actions of those who put their lives on the line and face the enemy.  The argument could be made that without the targeting officer in the JOC, the guy on the ground would never find that enemy.  Maybe.  But maybe that officer in the TOC needs to do something outstanding in his time behind the desk to get that award rather than just do his job.  The guy that put the package together that took out #2 in Pakistan?  BSM.  The guy before him?  ARCOM, maybe.   And what about support?  The guys in combat have a hard time staying mission capable without support, right?  Everyone should get an equal shake when it comes time for recognition, right?  No.  They shouldn't.  This is a volunteer force.  A volunteer force in which you are allowed to pick your job.  If you want a medal, pick up a gun and and a ruck, and get out there.  If you chose to serve your country as the best postal inspector you can be, then be happy with your uniform, paycheck, benefits, and the relative safety and comfort your position awards you.  That is your chosen lot in life.  If you do something outstanding, like find a mail bomb, no one will raise an eyebrow while the Man puts a medal on your chest.  This applies to any support job.  An average support person should not look like a third world dictator in his/her DA photo.  An 11B/0311/etc with multiple tours in multiple theaters should.  And the medals on his chest should match the worry lines on his face.

There are those who don't care about awards, for whom the service to their country and the person on their left and right is enough.  I believe that this is the correct attitude.  I also believe that these are the people that should be awarded, whether they want it or not.  Several years ago, one of my teammates told our AOB commander that he didn't want his BSM.  The Major told him simply, "It's not for you.  It's for your family."  It wasn't till I was home and my family saw the ribbons and medals that I understood what he was talking about.  It gives them something tangible to be proud of, to talk about with their friends, "Yeah, my son just came back from Afghanistan.  They gave him a Bronze Star."  I'm not saying that everyone who goes over should get a BSM.  But those who deserve it, should not reject it.

As far as the disparity between services, I believe the Marines are a little too stingy, the Army is a little too freehanded, and the Air Force is just fucking ridiculous (ground pounders excluded).


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## digrar (Feb 5, 2010)

View attachment 11514

Mark Donaldson VC. He's been in since 2002, deployed 3 times, Iraq, East Timor and Afghanistan, he's got 5 medals (I'm not sure why he isn't wearing the Iraq Medal, I'd have thought he was entitled), 2 unit citations (he is entitled to wear the unit citation for gallantry for ever and the meritorious unit citation while he is on the posted strength of SASR) the Infantry Combat Badge and the Army Individual Readiness Notice badge. 
I'd say we're at the other extreme, but still broken and we have the same dramas, unless you're like Donno VC and go above and beyond, as a OR or JNCO you're not likely to get a medal unless you're a Company Commander/Warrant Officer or above.


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## Teufel (Feb 5, 2010)

Ajax said:


> There are those who don't care about awards, for whom the service to their country and the person on their left and right is enough.  I believe that this is the correct attitude.  I also believe that these are the people that should be awarded, whether they want it or not.  Several years ago, one of my teammates told our AOB commander that he didn't want his BSM.  The Major told him simply, "It's not for you.  It's for your family."  It wasn't till I was home and my family saw the ribbons and medals that I understood what he was talking about.  It gives them something tangible to be proud of, to talk about with their friends, "Yeah, my son just came back from Afghanistan.  They gave him a Bronze Star."  I'm not saying that everyone who goes over should get a BSM.  But those who deserve it, should not reject it.



I will post more when I get back from work but until I do, check this out: http://northshorejournal.org/lance-corporal-dominic-d-esquibel
 In a rare gesture, Marine Cpl. Dominic Esquibel declined the Navy Cross he earned on Nov. 25, 2004, as a scout sniper. On that day, he destroyed two enemy machine gun nests and saved two of five Marines who lay wounded in a Fallujah courtyard. Marine Lt. Col. Curtis Hill says Esquibel turned down the award "for personal reasons."  My friend was in 1/8 with Esquibel and he just didn't want the medal so they ended up not giving it to him.


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## Viper1 (Feb 5, 2010)

Just my own personal experience.  I put in four guys for an ARCOM with V device for actions in OIF in 2006 when I was a 2LT, three 11Bs and a Medic.  I ran the write-ups through the 1SG, the CO, the CSM, and the S1 to make sure they were well-written.  I gave copies to everyone in their CoC and bragged to the BC and S3 about their actions a couple times so I could have their support and put it all in the patrol debrief as well for the S2's SA.  They got approved a month later (why it takes that long bothers me).  When they were awarded, the CO and 1SG commented how they hadn't seen a write up for an ARCOM for Valor in a long time.  I credit my first Platoon Sergeant for educating me on the system and getting me smart on it.  I had no idea an ARCOM w V existed before he got hold of me.

Pushing the paperwork helped in this instance.  Never got to award anything higher.  Just my :2cents:


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## RetPara (Feb 5, 2010)

WELL DONE VIPER1!!!!!!

Son Tay Raiders got ARCOM w\V's.  It will actually do more for them also.  It will stand out that they did something and had leaders that took some extra steps to ensure they were recognized properly.....


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## 7point62 (Feb 5, 2010)

The system has _indeed_ been broken for many years. I can cite a half-dozen examples offhand but won't because they will just piss you off and we all have similar outrageous stories. Nothing new here, really, although I applaud Owen West for resurrecting it (not to mention the respect I have for his Dad, who I consider a brother-in-arms); To sum it up, it isn't fair and never has been. At the 6th Marine Regimental HQ at Camp Lejeune they used to have the corridors decorated with framed MOH citations...and if you strolled down the hall and read them one by one you'd inevitably come to the conclusion that the higher the rank the less you had to risk to get one. 

A few years before I had actually been ordered one night to take a visiting 1st Lt out on a KT and "get him his CAR."


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 5, 2010)

The way the system works “now” I put really no weight behind any of the awards. Okay maybe the CMH but the rest its really hard to know what the guy did and if he really did it.

I was put in for a silver star on my first deployment (I did not agree with it) but what ever, never got one and at the end of our deployment we had a Battalion award ceremony. Some 1st LT was awarded a silver star and as they read of the citation of hat he did, I was like WTF he did not do that, my PL turned around “while at attention in Btn formation and said that was the award he had put in for me. 

Every PSG and up in the chain of command received a Bronze Star minimum and any of the soldiers who were put in for an award for bravery or valor received a ARCOM with V. The rest received an ARCOM as a service award. It was the same on my last deployment…

While in the WTU for medical treatment I have seen more people awarded the Purple Heart for a concussion then for an actual “bleeding wound”. I was approached and asked if I wanted a Purple Heart for some documented injuries I had from the first trip, and was looked at funny when I cussed them out about it.

The system is totally fucked in the Army…


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## car (Feb 5, 2010)

My boss and I had this discussion often, as we sat on our asses in the TOC, in Baghdad, drinking coffee......in the end, we both agreed that we should do away with awards. Even though Napolean (I think) said something to the effect that, it's amazing what men (and women (sic)) will do for a small piece of cloth on their chests.....Soldiers don't fight for awards. We fight for what we believe to be right, for what we swore to do, and for the folks on our left and right. 

A friend found an award write-up in the back of my car, under my golf clubs. "C, why is your Bronze Star citation back here with your golf clubs?"

'Nuff said.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 5, 2010)

I don’t think awards should be done away with completely, but do believe there needs to be a change made. 

Personally people who don’t leave the wire IMO should not be aloud to receive the same award as people who do. Officers and NCO should not receive a higher award then the enlisted soldiers simply b/c the held a position. Direct combat awards such as CMB,CIB,CAB should not be awarded for things like mortar attacks and car bombings, it should only be for those who fought the enemy.

Campaign, meritorious and good conduct awards, should remain, but not be restricted by rank or position.


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## AWP (Feb 5, 2010)

To put things into a bit of a historical perspective, go look into LBJ's Silver Star from WWII. About the only itews correct on the write-up were taking off and landing. Awards are largely a political process anymore.Sure, some are earned, but there's enough garbage out there that I think you can no longer take an award at face value.


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## Hitman2/3 (Feb 5, 2010)

The award system is rediculous in the Marine Corps. I remember we got ambushed at a road block at night. The birds say the road was clear, it wasn't. Anyway our plt was on point for the Company when we got hit. Machine guns RPGs AKs the works, tracer flying all over the place rounds slaping off the ground RPGs like they had an automatic launcher. So we try to reverse out to get off the X but we can't because the rest of the company was behind us. Our plt cmdr got out of his vehicle returned fire ran Back two vehicles from his to get them to back the hell up, then headed to the lead vehicle of our plt, still returning fire, began directing the vehicles to turn around. He did all of this in the middle of the night with little room for our HMMWV to manuver, and you know what he got? Not even a pat on the back. And why? Because the Company CO didn't like him or our Plt Sgt. 

Oh but wait, our Air officer got a bronze star for calling in airstrikes, none of them critical none of them life saving and one of them damn near criminal. But what can you do? It's like it already been said the system is broke. It kills me that a Sgt will get a Bronze Star for carrying two Marines to saftey out of a mind field after being wounded his self, and then a Capt on the same deployment gets the same award for bringing in X amount of supplies and keeping accountability of gear. WTF.


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## LongTabSigO (Feb 6, 2010)

I'm sure if we pulled the Army Times for Grenada, Panama, Bosnia, Kosovo, Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Desert Fox, Tsunami Relief, etc etc etc, the only thing different in the articles regarding awards policy are names, places, and dates.  Anyone who's ever written (or tried to write) a policy for anything knows it is impossible to cover every situation.  For example, let's make it a policy that only valor awards count for promotion.  Is the  problem solved?  In some minds yes; in others, it would be considered unfair.   On one hand, there will be "gate keepers" that required three or more bullet punctures for an AAM; on the other extreme will be commanders who pass them out like samples.  

Service awards are for just that - service.  Nothing wrong with recognizing performance and if there is support within the write up, what's it harm?  The fault lies in granting awards normally associated solely with combat valor to used also as service awards.  It also stems from a promotion system that does not distinguish combat service but rather requires a number of "merit badges" to make one competitive.  Make a joint, across all services, blanket awards policy and you MIGHT hit the 40% satisfaction rate.

Lets be honest - if commanders started cutting way back on awards, there'd be a hue and cry about how those (expletive) officers/rat bastards/perfumed princes/princesses are (expletive)ing troops.  There would be all manner of garment rending about how it's unfair, etc etc.


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## Smurf (Feb 6, 2010)

Look at a citation for a Silver Star today and then look at one for a Service Cross or CMH- they're the same. It's total bullshit for everyone of you guys.


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## Scotth (Feb 6, 2010)

LongTabSigO said:


> I'm sure if we pulled the Army Times for Grenada, Panama, Bosnia, Kosovo, Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Desert Fox, Tsunami Relief, etc etc etc, the only thing different in the articles regarding awards policy are names, places, and dates. Anyone who's ever written (or tried to write) a policy for anything knows it is impossible to cover every situation. For example, let's make it a policy that only valor awards count for promotion. Is the problem solved? In some minds yes; in others, it would be considered unfair. On one hand, there will be "gate keepers" that required three or more bullet punctures for an AAM; on the other extreme will be commanders who pass them out like samples.
> 
> Service awards are for just that - service. Nothing wrong with recognizing performance and if there is support within the write up, what's it harm? The fault lies in granting awards normally associated solely with combat valor to used also as service awards. It also stems from a promotion system that does not distinguish combat service but rather requires a number of "merit badges" to make one competitive. Make a joint, across all services, blanket awards policy and you MIGHT hit the 40% satisfaction rate.
> 
> Lets be honest - if commanders started cutting way back on awards, there'd be a hue and cry about how those (expletive) officers/rat bastards/perfumed princes/princesses are (expletive)ing troops. There would be all manner of garment rending about how it's unfair, etc etc.


 
Good post overall and I really have to agree with the highlighted area being an issue I never understood.


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## Teufel (Feb 6, 2010)

LongTabSigO said:


> I'm sure if we pulled the Army Times for Grenada, Panama, Bosnia, Kosovo, Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Desert Fox, Tsunami Relief, etc etc etc, the only thing different in the articles regarding awards policy are names, places, and dates.  Anyone who's ever written (or tried to write) a policy for anything knows it is impossible to cover every situation.  For example, let's make it a policy that only valor awards count for promotion.  Is the  problem solved?  In some minds yes; in others, it would be considered unfair.   On one hand, there will be "gate keepers" that required three or more bullet punctures for an AAM; on the other extreme will be commanders who pass them out like samples.
> 
> Service awards are for just that - service.  Nothing wrong with recognizing performance and if there is support within the write up, what's it harm?  The fault lies in granting awards normally associated solely with combat valor to used also as service awards.  It also stems from a promotion system that does not distinguish combat service but rather requires a number of "merit badges" to make one competitive.  Make a joint, across all services, blanket awards policy and you MIGHT hit the 40% satisfaction rate.
> 
> Lets be honest - if commanders started cutting way back on awards, there'd be a hue and cry about how those (expletive) officers/rat bastards/perfumed princes/princesses are (expletive)ing troops.  There would be all manner of garment rending about how it's unfair, etc etc.


 
In my opinion, medals were created to improve morale (mostly with regard to the ENLISTED troops) and serve three main purposes:

1. Medals reward.  Medals reward personnel who perform meritorious or valorous acts.  Thanks for baking those 300 cookies/pulling that guy out the kill zone, you did a good job.

2. Medals recognize. Medals highlight an individual and his actions as something worth emulating.  This NCO baked 300 cookies/pulled another trooper out of the kill zone, you should all aspire to be as brave/Martha Stewart as he is.

3. Medals reassure.  Our nation asks young men and women to perform actions that often times are counter to their moral upbringing.  You have a young joe who has been told all his life "thou shalt not kill".  He deploys overseas, gets in an ambush and by the time the smoke clears he has killed twenty enemy fighters. http://doctorbulldog.wordpress.com/2008/11/25/20-shots-20-kills/  He thinks back to his upbringing and wonders if he has done the right thing.  To assure him that his actions were morally correct, we pin a medal on his chest to show him that not only is it morally okay to kill 20 enemy fighters, we are rewarding him for it, we want him to do it again and we want everyone else to aspire to be like him too.

Here is the problem.  In our current system it takes far too long to approve awards, especially combat awards.  There is so much nit picking, second guessing and CSI type investigation BS that it is common (at least in the Marine Corps) for valor awards to take a year or more to process.  Silver Stars and up take two or more years.  Why?  Because awards languish at every level of the chain of command.  Awards should be scrutinized at battalion (because these boards know the individuals involved in the actions, they should be familiar with the events that took place and they are familiar with the general optempo, enemy sit etc).  Once the award gets to the awarding authority, they should scrutinize heavily as well because they see tons of awards and have a baseline to compare that award to.  Everyone inbetween really only needs to ensure grammatical and format accuracy because they have no idea what happened other than what is written down on paper.   Receive and forward on.  This would flatten the process considerably. 

Two: There are far far more meritorious and valor awards given to officers and senior SNCOs than valor awards given to junior enlisted.  Some of these are deserving but most seem to be given for showing up and this dilutes the awards system.  I don't think many junior enlisted have any faith in the awards system and don't give a lot of weight to awards given to officers and senior SNCOs.  The awards manual says awards are given for actions performed above and beyond the call of duty.  If you are a company commander much more is expected of you than a squad leader.  It is demoralizing when you have  a Marine who went above and beyond get a NAM with V and the adjutant (Major) who gets a Bronze Star for processing a thousand PCRs.  The bronze star has been terribly diluted by the amount of meritorious bronze stars that have been awarded.  Personally I think that valor awards and meritorious awards should be completely separate.  Valor awards equivalent to the achievement and commendation medals should be created.  The Bronze Star should only be given out for valor.  If you want to give a guy a valor medal for an end of tour award it should not be 90% merit and 10% valor to sneak a v device through.


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## 7point62 (Feb 6, 2010)

Another example of what you've written, T. I know two former soldiers who both recieved the Bronze Star. The first for grabbing a machine gun and holding off the enemy when his vehicle was ambushed and everybody in the vehicle KIA except him...and then getting shot in the neck and left for dead. And the second, an Army public information NCO who got the Bronze for being a Buckeye because the CO was also a Buckeye. In the former case, the man deserved a Silver, IMHO, and in the latter case the CO _asked_ the man if he'd like a Bronze Star. 

I know both these guys. To be fair, the guy who got the meritorius Bronze is open and honest about it, but the medal is percieved by the general public as being an award for bravery. I wonder how many meritorious Bronze Star recipients have misrepresented the circumstances.

I got put in for a Bronze w/V and never got it. As did two other guys with me. I still have the letter from my company XO. I included it in my docs to PB when I was being vetted for Shadowspear. Doesn't mean squat to me, but there are people out there who got the Bronze for "efficient administrative work" who are making like they're Audie Murphy.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 6, 2010)

The original award the “Purple Heart” was a merit badge designed to be awarded to the common soldier for meritorious actions. This was enacted b/c of General George Washington’s use of battlefield promotions of soldier who performed meritorious in combat. The Revolutionary government could not afford to pay for all of the promotions that Gen Washington was giving, so they chose to award them a badge of merit instead.

Since then it has gone retarded.




Teufel said:


> Here is the problem.  In our current system it takes far too long to approve awards, especially combat awards.  There is so much nit picking, second guessing and CSI type investigation BS that it is common (at least in the Marine Corps) for valor awards to take a year or more to process.  Silver Stars and up take two or more years.  Why?  Because awards languish at every level of the chain of command.  Awards should be scrutinized at battalion (because these boards know the individuals involved in the actions, they should be familiar with the events that took place and they are familiar with the general optempo, enemy sit etc).  Once the award gets to the awarding authority, they should scrutinize heavily as well because they see tons of awards and have a baseline to compare that award to.  Everyone inbetween really only needs to ensure grammatical and format accuracy because they have no idea what happened other than what is written down on paper.   Receive and forward on.  This would flatten the process considerably.
> 
> Two: There are far far more meritorious and valor awards given to officers and senior SNCOs than valor awards given to junior enlisted.  Some of these are deserving but most seem to be given for showing up and this dilutes the awards system.  I don't think many junior enlisted have any faith in the awards system and don't give a lot of weight to awards given to officers and senior SNCOs.  The awards manual says awards are given for actions performed above and beyond the call of duty.  If you are a company commander much more is expected of you than a squad leader.  It is demoralizing when you have  a Marine who went above and beyond get a NAM with V and the adjutant (Major) who gets a Bronze Star for processing a thousand PCRs.  The bronze star has been terribly diluted by the amount of meritorious bronze stars that have been awarded.  Personally I think that valor awards and meritorious awards should be completely separate.  Valor awards equivalent to the achievement and commendation medals should be created.  The Bronze Star should only be given out for valor.  If you want to give a guy a valor medal for an end of tour award it should not be 90% merit and 10% valor to sneak a v device through.


 
I agree 100%


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## digrar (Feb 6, 2010)

If you ditched the bronze star without combat V, would that go a fair way to fixing the problem in one move?


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## Cayenne6 (Feb 7, 2010)

digrar said:


> If you ditched the bronze star without combat V, would that go a fair way to fixing the problem in one move?


 
     I attended the SOCOM ball in Tampa last Nov. Never saw so many Bronze Stars in one place. Most were on officers while the enlisted were heavy on Navy Achievement. Only saw a couple of either award with the V. Guess BS could stand for Bull Shit award instead of Bronze Star in cases like that.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 7, 2010)

The BSM, sans "V" device, is merely a wartime MSM.  It's an entirely appropriate decoration for excellence under combat conditions.  The BSM can be awarded in combat for merit or for valor (with "V"), just like the ARCOM.  That's why there are no Silver Stars or DSCs with "V" devices- they are valor awards in and of themselves.  Equitability of awards will always be a problem, because it will always include the human element in the process.  The rule I always try to use is level of achievement and level of responsibility, in that order.  Also, different units have different cutoffs for awards, it's even worse between the services.

Additionally, unless they've changed things anyone can put anyone else in for an award; if you feel strongly enough that someone deserves it put them in for it.  Doesn't mean it'll get approved, but it definitely won't get approved if they're never nominated.


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## Bones (Feb 8, 2010)

When i was in OEF4, my company commander walked in our tent and said "pick two guys for ARCOMS and left.  outta like 11 guys we got 2.  Finally I got mine 3 years later, but im not sure if its my ETS award or my being in Afghanistan award at this point.  Meanwhile PSG and others laid in our tent for almost a year straight on his cot and or having us hand deliver him chow or MREs if he didnt want to walk that far and he got a Bronze star he was going to denie but didnt...  He did it 2 years later again to my privates that later become NCO's.  The awards system is FUBAR.


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## car (Feb 8, 2010)

Marauder06 said:


> The BSM, sans "V" device, is merely a wartime MSM.  It's an entirely appropriate decoration for excellence under combat conditions.  The BSM can be awarded in combat for merit or for valor (with "V"), just like the ARCOM.  That's why there are no Silver Stars or DSCs with "V" devices- they are valor awards in and of themselves.  Equitability of awards will always be a problem, because it will always include the human element in the process.  The rule I always try to use is level of achievement and level of responsibility, in that order.  Also, different units have different cutoffs for awards, it's even worse between the services.
> 
> Additionally, unless they've changed things anyone can put anyone else in for an award; if you feel strongly enough that someone deserves it put them in for it.  Doesn't mean it'll get approved, but it definitely won't get approved if they're never nominated.


 
x two (without "V") ;)  You are absolutely correct, Mara.


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## Teufel (Feb 8, 2010)

I know, and you may be very fair in the way you submit awards but to me the bronze star has been abused.  I have seen too many blanket awards according to rank and billet vice accomplishments and achievement.


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## goon175 (Apr 29, 2014)

Brittany Spacey said:


> Purple Heart medals:  I was hit by a drunk driver.  I sustained brain damage, broke my back in 6 places, broke all of the ribs on my right side and the passenger in the car I was in was killed.   No, they don't give out awards or medals for that.  Your award is surviving.



You need to post an intro. Thank you in advance.


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## goon175 (Apr 29, 2014)

Brittany Spacey said:


> Purple Heart medals:  I was hit by a drunk driver.  I sustained brain damage, broke my back in 6 places, broke all of the ribs on my right side and the passenger in the car I was in was killed.   No, they don't give out awards or medals for that.  Your award is surviving.



On a personal note, I don't even want to begin to understand how you can equate a car crash with actions in combat...


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## Viper1 (Apr 29, 2014)

goon175 said:


> On a personal note, I don't even want to begin to understand how you can equate a car crash with actions in combat...


X2 I have no idea what that is about.  When I initially read it I thought about Jessica Lynch, the HMMWV crash, etc but then I saw the beginning of the post that said "drunk driver".


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## DA SWO (Apr 29, 2014)

Brittany Spacey said:


> Purple Heart medals:  I was hit by a drunk driver.  I sustained brain damage, broke my back in 6 places, broke all of the ribs on my right side and the passenger in the car I was in was killed.   No, they don't give out awards or medals for that.  Your award is surviving.


Your profile says civillian, why would a civillian rate a Purple Heart?


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## Marauder06 (Apr 29, 2014)

Brittany Spacey said:


> Purple Heart medals:  I was hit by a drunk driver.  I sustained brain damage, broke my back in 6 places, broke all of the ribs on my right side and the passenger in the car I was in was killed.   No, they don't give out awards or medals for that.  Your award is surviving.



Did your accident affect your ability to follow simple instructions?  Don't bother answering, just read this:  http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/pages/info/ 

I don't know why you came to our site, or why your first action was to resurrect a thread that's been dead for the last four years with a post that is completely unrelated.  Either you're a troll or your the worst-situationally-aware new member we've had in a looooong time... and that's saying something.  At any rate, this is your first and only warning.  Get with the program or find another site.


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## Teufel (Apr 29, 2014)

Pretty sure that's a fake profile


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## Ranger Psych (Apr 29, 2014)

IP crosscheck, Isle one.... lol


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## BloodStripe (May 22, 2014)

I witnessed in Iraq an award ceremony for an outgoing Army MP Brigade. It awarded an Army cook a Bronze Star for basically overseeing good chow being served in the chow hall. Meanwhile I also witnessed a Marine only be awarded a NAM with "V" Device after leading his squad through an ambush that had effectively broken the platoon in half. He was personally responsible for flanking a well bunkered machine gun position, exposing himself multiple times to draw other enemy small arms fire to divert the attention away from the rest of the platoon so they could move to better cover and return fire to the machine gun "nest". 

As a squad leader, I was asked by my platoon commander to basically write everyone up in my squad for either a NCM, NAM, or letter of commendation. I couldn't argue with a LT so I wrote everyone for a Letter of Commendation. I left that platoon shortly after getting OCONUS and I never followed up with any of my former Marines as to whether or not they were approved. It wasn't their fault as none of them asked for it, but truthfully I felt they did not deserve it. Hell, even I got a NAM and I don't feel it was warranted. I did my job, just like anyone else did. It would be one thing if I were not a grunt as those get handed out like cookies over on the support side, but as a grunt I don't feel I earned it.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 22, 2014)

Wow looking at this thread now reading back, I'm more inclined to say that there really shouldn't be a tier system on awards. 

Valor award for - valor
Live Saving for - saving a life
Merit award for - Merit

Keep the campaign stuff and can the rest. I know a guy with a BSM-V who should have the CMH. I know a officer wearing a Silver Star that was even there for the actions cited.

Not to take away from anyones awards, but its a bit silly to compare a guys his risked his life, saved another to another guys action of the same.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 8, 2014)

http://www.airforcetimes.com/articl...01/Tech-sgts-take-heat-after-receiving-medals


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## CDG (Sep 9, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://www.airforcetimes.com/articl...01/Tech-sgts-take-heat-after-receiving-medals


 
How the fuck is it "cyber-bullying" to point out that neither of these two deserves a Bronze Star?  Unbelievable.  Go Big Blue.


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## DA SWO (Sep 9, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://www.airforcetimes.com/articl...01/Tech-sgts-take-heat-after-receiving-medals


Way to find a two year old story.
Not like the marines or Army awarded BSM's to people who never left the FOB.


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## AWP (Sep 9, 2014)

I think the question which needs to be asked is "If this were done at their home station would it warrant an MSM".


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## BloodStripe (Sep 9, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Way to find a two year old story.
> Not like the marines or Army awarded BSM's to people who never left the FOB.



I wasn't trying to jab at a specific service with that article. It just happened to be the Air Force in that particular post. And I would not want to know what the number is of BSM awarded to those who never left the wire and received it for merit for the Marine Corps but I am sure it is staggeringly high. I do however think Gen Mattis was on point when he clarified that there needs to be shown an increased risk in order to rate the Bronze Star. Otherwise, one should be issued the Meritorious Service Medal instead. "Mattis “determined it was appropriate to put this philosophy in writing for the benefit of the subordinate commanders so they could clearly see what kind of information he needed,” Freund said. “It was clarifying the criteria he uses to determine what rates the MSM and what rates the Bronze Star.”"

Here is one for the Army to help even things out.  http://www.businessinsider.com/patr...combat-valor-without-firing-his-rifle-2012-11


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## Teufel (Sep 9, 2014)

It's really not worth getting into.  We all know our awards system is broken.  There is no parity between the services for what actions, meritorious or valorous, merit an award at any particular level.  The Marine Corps is excessively stingy, particularly for awarding valor awards for younger enlisted Marines, and I'll just say some other services have in some cases given out certain awards, especially the Bronze Star without V, a bit too leniently.  I'm over it.  The only awards that really matter are the Purple Heart, Combat Action Ribbon and Sea Service Deployment Ribbon.  Or whatever y'alls equivalents are.  Even then I've been wounded more times than I've been awarded the Purple Heart (ain't nobody got no time to go to the aid station) and there are a lot of guys running around with some pretty shakey write ups for their Purple Hearts and Combat Action Ribbons.  So what does it all matter?  I'll tell you what matters.

I know what I did in Iraq, Afganistan, Africa and all the other shitty places I've spent my adult life in.  I got some trinkets for some of the things I did, scars from others, some good memories, and some things that keep me up at night.  I don't really care what some Tech Sergeant did to get her Bronze Star.  Yes it's kind of a joke.  That's not one of the things that keep me up at night though.

At the end of the day, I got to go to war with some of the baddest pipe hitters in our nation and press trigger on some of the biggest douchebags on the planet.  That's a reward in and of itself.  You can keep your bronze star for merit.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 9, 2014)

"Giese earned the medal for his ingenuity and quick work in preventing record snowfall last winter from crippling the coalition headquarters."

Read more here: http://www.islandpacket.com/2012/12...om-beaufort-awarded-bronze.html#storylink=cpy

And one for the Marine Corps


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## 8654Maine (Sep 9, 2014)

Teufel said:


> ..._your post.._.



Excellent post!


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## DA SWO (Sep 9, 2014)

One way to limit the prostitution of the system would be to hide the awards from a promotion board.

I also think the broken awards system is tied to a broken promotion system.

Both need to be fixed to be effective.


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## Scubadew (Sep 10, 2014)

Teufel said:


> At the end of the day, I got to go to war with some of the baddest pipe hitters in our nation and press trigger on some of the biggest douchebags on the planet.  That's a reward in and of itself.


 
Six to midnight.


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## Etype (Sep 10, 2014)

I think I speak for most folks in the Army SOF community when I say the only BSMs that matter are BSMVs, same with ARCOM to ARCOMV.

I'd say that within the USASOC realm, we are pretty good with what we give out as far as DSC/SS/BSMV/ARCOMV.  Some MoH and DSC write ups are pretty comparable, but from what I've seen- a good enough job is done.

As to the original post- when something happens regarding the AF on the ground, it blows their AF minds because they aren't used to it- so they get an award.  The Army has a larger number of SOF on the ground, which usually comes along with more awards due to the nature of the mission.  The Marine Corps has a large number of conventional infantry on the ground, conventional infantry in the Army and Marines seems to be pretty tight with awards.

Unfortunately, with people getting killed by IEDs- there's not much action to reward.  There's just a boom- it's a say reality of our "global contingency operations."  (ominous tone gesturing towards Iraq 2.0)


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## ThunderHorse (Sep 11, 2014)

There was a time when the V did not exist.  The BSM is a combat award, if the guy never left the wire and did his job an ARCOM is perfectly good enough.  Soldiers who were out there sucking just like the PLT SGT on the mountain rate more than a AAM.  Also NAMs with Vs...wtf, not a N/M Commendation?  As I've never in my life seen an AAM "V".  Also, an ARCOM "V" tells me it should be a BSM.  But that's just me.  I also believe the COAs are toilet paper and that you can justify an AAM for a soldier doing his job, the higher CoC just needs to be on the same track.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 11, 2014)

My grandfather received a Bronze Star... in World War 2......in the fucking Battle of the Bulge....as a grunt.


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## Etype (Sep 12, 2014)

ThunderHorse said:


> There was a time when the V did not exist.  The BSM is a combat award, if the guy never left the wire and did his job an ARCOM is perfectly good enough.  Soldiers who were out there sucking just like the PLT SGT on the mountain rate more than a AAM.  Also NAMs with Vs...wtf, not a N/M Commendation?  As I've never in my life seen an AAM "V".  Also, an ARCOM "V" tells me it should be a BSM.  But that's just me.  I also believe the COAs are toilet paper and that you can justify an AAM for a soldier doing his job, the higher CoC just needs to be on the same track.


Right, the BSM is a combat award, the MSM is the non-combat equivalent, not ARCOM. 

A BSM (or in some cases ARCOM) can be awarded for contributions done over the course of a deployment.  A BSMV/ARCOMV is for one specific valorous act.

Why should an ARCOMV be the same as a BSM?  Its one lower in precedence, and one is a valor medal while one isn't.

COAs are toilet paper- maybe the guy should've done better and got an AAM, maybe his command dropped the ball.

The system evolves- purple hearts used to be a valor award.


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## ThunderHorse (Sep 12, 2014)

My reasoning behind the ARCOMV should be a BSM has little to do with myself.  I just look at what I've seen and think, did it get downgraded or was the command not diligent.  ARCOMs are both a combat and non-combat award.  If one guy is awarded an ARCOMV and the PSG and PL were awarded BSMVs for that action, whatever that one guy did stood out enough.  Granted we're wargaming this.

I've seen good Soldiers get COAs for doing a consistent job.  It's toilet paper because it helps very little overall versus an AAM.  What if the Soldier earned the COA, interesting, I had a Soldier who did just that with a DUI.  Why he's still in the Army, IDK, happened before I got to the platoon.  I told my NCOs he was getting one, and they said: "Sir, for an ETS award?!"  I said yes, adverse action less than a year ago.  His section leader told him to bring in a list of accomplishments so he could write an AAM.  Well he earned his COA by not bringing in that list.  It was a new section leader that didn't know him that well if anyone is asking.


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## Etype (Sep 14, 2014)

I agree with the COA part, but valor awards are given out for specific events- so a platoon sergeant and private wouldn't be getting them at the same time anyway.  As the award goes up the chain, commanders can downgrade it or upgrade it.

2nd platoon doesn't all get valor awards for taking the hill, specific people in the platoon might for specific actions.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 27, 2014)

https://www.rallypoint.com/command-post/military-misconceptions-the-bronze-star-medal



> Now Operation Iraqi Freedom, from 2003 to 2010, saw 99,886 Bronze Star Medals awarded in OIF for Achievement/Service. In addition to those, there were only 2,459 awarded for valor.



For every 40 BSM awarded for merit, only 1 would be awarded for a heroic action. Compare that to Vietnam where it was a much closer 3 to 1 ratio.


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## dirtmover (Oct 27, 2014)

Shit I didn't even rate an end of tour award hell 75% of the company didn't.  But you best belive that every one in the TOC got at least an ARCOM.  To top it all off three of them got some Air Force medal for watching movies with our TACP.  But those of us outside the wire damn near every single day got impact AAMs.  It really chaps my hide when my soldiers busted their assessment day in and day out and they got a bs AAM while the fobbits got fat and got an ARCOM or BSM.


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## Brill (Jan 1, 2015)

Etype said:


> A BSM (or in some cases ARCOM) can be awarded for contributions done over the course of a deployment....
> The system evolves- purple hearts used to be a valor award.



Yes, it is evolving but seems broken indeed.  A 1SG on Meade got an ARCOM for being the internet police??? 

http://www.armytimes.com/story/military/2014/12/31/moerk-commendation-award-trolling/21103073/

"First Sgt. Katrina Moerk said she never sought recognition for correcting soldiers' unethical behavior online, but received it anyway, and from high places.
Lt. Gen. James McConville presented Moerk an Army Medal of Commendation at a Dec. 15 ceremony at the Pentagon and the senior non-commissioned officer received in-person praise from Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel.

Moerk, the first sergeant of Charlie Company, 741st Military Intelligence Battalion, out of Fort Mead, Md.,."






Other side of the coin :

http://thelibertyzone.com/2014/12/27/an-arcom-for-that/
http://thisainthell.us/blog/?p=57425

"Folks have been sending the link to the Army Times article about the dust up of the ARCOM for 1SG Moersk, who trolled folks on a video, apparently. I say “troll” because I’m fairly convinced that is what she did, given my experience with her since I commented on the story earlier. *As soon as she saw my post, she emailed it (via Twitter) to Sergeant Major of the Army Ray Chandler as well as the Pentagon’s G-1 and to the chief of the SHARP Program.* And then she took the time to call me an “asshat” on Facebook."

The comments...holy shit the comments!!! I'm dying!!!


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## Teufel (Jan 1, 2015)

SOTGWarrior said:


> "Giese earned the medal for his ingenuity and quick work in preventing record snowfall last winter from crippling the coalition headquarters."
> 
> Read more here: http://www.islandpacket.com/2012/12...om-beaufort-awarded-bronze.html#storylink=cpy
> 
> And one for the Marine Corps



He got that at a joint billet.  Not from the Marine Corps.


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## x SF med (Jan 1, 2015)

Although the video was in very bad taste, it was satire....  does this MSG take herself that seriously, that she had to go to the SMA instead of addressing her issues with the soldiers and their CoC?   From Barracks whore to attention whore....  oh sorry the first part of the last comment was déclassé and o! noes! sarcastic.


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## Brill (Jan 1, 2015)

x SF med said:


> Although the video was in very bad taste, it was satire....  does this MSG take herself that seriously, that she had to go to the SMA instead of addressing her issues with the soldiers and their CoC?   From Barracks whore to attention whore....  oh sorry the first part of the last comment was déclassé and o! noes! sarcastic.



Agree that Joe is going to be Joe: that's why we have NCOs. Why would big Army support jumping the CoC and support slamming John Q Public, who happens to be a serviceman, when they make inappropriate comments:
-on a non-DOD site
-as a regular citizen

What the fuck was the MSG doing on YouTube during working hours anyway (an assumption, but pretty fair I'm sure)? How many man hours were spent on her investigation?


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## Gunz (Jan 6, 2015)

The system's been broken since WW2. Maybe even before. Offhand I can think of a half-dozen examples involving Marines and officers I served with who either got what they didn't deserve or didn't get what they earned. And the fuckin Bronze Star for administrative merit or for crossing the street without getting hit by a bus needed  to disappear many years ago. I know two former soldiers, one was an admin guy who typed reports for MACV-Pleiku who got it because he was a Buckeye and his CO was a Buckeye...the other was driving his Plt Sgt and XO in a jeep down a dirt road, got caught in an L ambush, Sgt and XO were immediately killed, he grabbed the M60 and returned fire until he got hit in the throat. Both got the Bronze Star. One got a V. Guess which one used to brag about it?


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## Grunt (Jan 6, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> The system's been broken since WW2. Maybe even before. Offhand I can think of a half-dozen examples involving Marines and officers I served with who either got what they didn't deserve or didn't get what they earned. And the fuckin Bronze Star for administrative merit or for crossing the street without getting hit by a bus needed  to disappear many years ago. I know two former soldiers, one was an admin guy who typed reports for MACV-Pleiku who got it because he was a Buckeye and his CO was a Buckeye...the other was driving his Plt Sgt and XO in a jeep down a dirt road, got caught in an L ambush, Sgt and XO were immediately killed, he grabbed the M60 and returned fire until he got hit in the throat. Both got the Bronze Star. One got a V. Guess which one used to brag about it?



Those types of actions are so ingrained in the system, I don't know if it will ever go away. The "good ole boy" network is alive and well -- even in the military. I wish it wasn't so, but I don't think that many of those that make those decisions care about what I think.

As always, the more things change, the more they stay the same.


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## CDG (Dec 29, 2016)

Dusting off an old thread because I saw an email from Mountain Tactical Institute asking if there is a Silver Star bias against junior enlisted troops.  They include some data collected from their own research, but the point of the article is more to get the opinions of servicemembers.  They chose the Silver Star since it is a combat valor only award, not one that can be awarded for meritorious service.  I look forward to seeing the opinions others post.  I personally think there is a bias against junior enlisted for a lot of awards, if not all of them.

Is There a Silver Star Award Bias Against Junior Enlisted? - Mountain Tactical Institute


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 29, 2016)

Military Athlete's facebooky also posted this yesterday, it was an interesting read: It’s Hard to Tell War Heroes From Paper-Pushers When Everybody Gets So Many Dumb Ribbons

I will point out that before the Civil War officers didn't get medals as they were for enlistedmen.  Officers received Brevet promotions that would be confirmed by Congress.



CDG said:


> Dusting off an old thread because I saw an email from Mountain Tactical Institute asking if there is a Silver Star bias against junior enlisted troops.  They include some data collected from their own research, but the point of the article is more to get the opinions of servicemembers.  They chose the Silver Star since it is a combat valor only award, not one that can be awarded for meritorious service.  I look forward to seeing the opinions others post.  I personally think there is a bias against junior enlisted for a lot of awards, if not all of them.
> 
> Is There a Silver Star Award Bias Against Junior Enlisted? - Mountain Tactical Institute



In my experience as an S1 and the S1 prior to me, Officer Awards never went through the CSMs desk, whereas all enlisted awards did and he quite often recommended to the SCO downgrading or called the Troop 1SG.  Granted none of these were for valor, but it may have something to do with the system being all fuckered up.


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## Etype (Dec 29, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Military Athlete's facebooky also posted this yesterday, it was an interesting read: It’s Hard to Tell War Heroes From Paper-Pushers When Everybody Gets So Many Dumb Ribbons
> 
> I will point out that before the Civil War officers didn't get medals as they were for enlistedmen.  Officers received Brevet promotions that would be confirmed by Congress.


The picture of General Eisenhower next to Patraeus was a good touch.

Good paragraph-


> The ribbons have spread so widely that it has become difficult to differentiate heroes from bedecked bureaucrats, assignment-junkies and dedicated self-improvement types — which, I suppose, is partly the point.


The status quo is to receive a ribbon when you leave assignments if you do a good job. As a soldier, I consider doing a good job to be my job. So basically, folks who hop around to staff jobs and special assignments get a lot of ribbons for doing their job.


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## CDG (Dec 29, 2016)

I liked the comparison drawn between a first term Airman, and the Generals.  That definitely puts it in sharp perspective.  The USAF, for example, awards a ribbon for completing Basic Military Training.  Why does that need to be a ribbon?  To make a ribbon rack one ribbon larger?  The uniform is your award for completing Basic. :wall::wall:


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## Devildoc (Dec 29, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Military Athlete's facebooky also posted this yesterday, it was an interesting read: It’s Hard to Tell War Heroes From Paper-Pushers When Everybody Gets So Many Dumb Ribbons



That was a really interesting read.  Probably the best thing I will have read today.  I will say, rising through the Navy's enlisted and officer ranks, the awards system is a relative joke:  it's like all the honors, weighted, and AP classes to pad the high school GPA: after a while, when everyone has a 3.8+ GPA, it loses it's specialness. 

When the Navy pushed the award authority from the NAM to the unit level, all of a sudden, everyone had one, seemingly for just showing up.  Because it added points for promotions, which in turn made the CO/OIC look good.  And what _used _to get you a NAM, now garnered a Navy Comm.  Fast forward to combat, a Marine is getting engaged in combat and may still not get a CAR; a sailor goes outside the wire and gets a Navy Comm with a Combat V.


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## Grunt (Dec 29, 2016)

Sadly enough, once those ribbons and awards began being handed out so abundantly, they began losing their importance and honor.

Certainly, I am not dis honoring those that truly earned them, but, many have simply been handed out due to the "everyone gets a trophy" mentality that has permeated our military. 

The reality is...everyone does not have the RIGHT to have a trophy, although, everyone does the the right to EARN one honestly.


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## CDG (Dec 29, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> When the Navy pushed the award authority from the NAM to the unit level, all of a sudden, everyone had one, seemingly for just showing up.  Because it added points for promotions, which in turn made the CO/OIC look good.  And what _used _to get you a NAM, now garnered a Navy Comm.  Fast forward to combat, a Marine is getting engaged in combat and may still not get a CAR; a sailor goes outside the wire and gets a Navy Comm with a Combat V.



I might have mentioned this anecdote earlier in this thread, but it bears repeating. When we got back from my first cruise, we had a command wide awards ceremony.  I thought all of the awards were unwarranted, but the one that stood out the most was the NAM awarded for keeping the vending machine stocked for 6 months.


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## Devildoc (Dec 29, 2016)

CDG said:


> I might have mentioned this anecdote earlier in this thread, but it bears repeating. When we got back from my first cruise, we had a command wide awards ceremony.  I thought all of the awards were unwarranted, but the one that stood out the most was the NAM awarded for keeping the vending machine stocked for 6 months.



I had three NAMs.  I am embarrassed to say what they were for.  Let's just say it makes the vending machine award look good.  When I went through boot, they didn't even give out the National Defense Medal.  My first medal?  The Military Outstanding Volunteer Service Medal.  No shit.


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## yarles87 (Dec 29, 2016)

CDG said:


> Dusting off an old thread because I saw an email from Mountain Tactical Institute asking if there is a Silver Star bias against junior enlisted troops.  They include some data collected from their own research, but the point of the article is more to get the opinions of servicemembers.  They chose the Silver Star since it is a combat valor only award, not one that can be awarded for meritorious service.  I look forward to seeing the opinions others post.  I personally think there is a bias against junior enlisted for a lot of awards, if not all of them.
> 
> Is There a Silver Star Award Bias Against Junior Enlisted? - Mountain Tactical Institute



(Full disclosure: I work for MTI/Military Athlete and wrote that article, so thanks for the share)

Here are some other interesting data points we collected while researching the article. 

The ratio of Bronze Star w/ "V" to to Bronze Star for achievement in Vietnam - *1:3*

The ratio of Bronze Star w/ "V" to to Bronze Star for achievement in Iraq - *1:42*

That is a incredible number. Combat intensity and frequency might explain that, but I'm not sure. To be clear, far more Bronze Stars were awarded in Vietnam. 170,626 Bronze Star "V", and 549,342 Bronze Star for Achievement. 

What does that mean? It's certainly open to interpretation as it's only a quick snapshot. Anyhoo, glad it's generating some discussion.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 29, 2016)

yarles87 said:


> (Full disclosure: I work for MTI/Military Athlete and wrote that article, so thanks for the share)
> 
> Here are some other interesting data points we collected while researching the article.
> 
> ...



That's pretty telling, and confirms my experience and thoughts. The only guys I saw getting BSM/V were KIA, or did some shit deserving of a much-much higher award. They handed BSM's out like candy to E7 and up, for being an E7 and up.


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## Etype (Dec 29, 2016)

CDG said:


> The USAF, for example, awards a ribbon for completing Basic Military Training.  Why does that need to be a ribbon?  To make a ribbon rack one ribbon larger?  The uniform is your award for completing Basic. :wall::wall:


We have the Army Service Ribbon. I'm obviously serving the Army if I'm wearing the uniform.

Overseas Ribbon- I also have overseas bars and campaign ribbons- redundant.

NCO Professional Development Ribbon- You can guess my level of NCO schooling based on my rank.

Good Conduct Medal- I shouldn't get a medal for not violating the UCMJ.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 29, 2016)

I


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## DA SWO (Dec 29, 2016)

Etype said:


> We have the Army Service Ribbon. I'm obviously serving the Army if I'm wearing the uniform.
> 
> Overseas Ribbon- I also have overseas bars and campaign ribbons- redundant.
> 
> ...


Agree on all except the GCM.
There once was a time where Art 15's were not career killers (the AF has a MOH recipient with 2 (3?) on his record), so a GCM wasn't automatic.  Going downtown and getting into a fight was considered semi-normal, so the Art 15, or LOR were common.
I'd rather see fewer GCM's and better Soldiers being allowed to stay in myself.


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## Teufel (Dec 30, 2016)

CDG said:


> Dusting off an old thread because I saw an email from Mountain Tactical Institute asking if there is a Silver Star bias against junior enlisted troops.  They include some data collected from their own research, but the point of the article is more to get the opinions of servicemembers.  They chose the Silver Star since it is a combat valor only award, not one that can be awarded for meritorious service.  I look forward to seeing the opinions others post.  I personally think there is a bias against junior enlisted for a lot of awards, if not all of them.
> 
> Is There a Silver Star Award Bias Against Junior Enlisted? - Mountain Tactical Institute



The article brings up some interesting points but I believe it is too broad to be truly useful.  First of all, the different services approach valor awards very differently. The Army, for example, gave a bunch of Brigade and Battalion commanders Silver Stars during OIF and OEF. I would be interested to see how many enlisted men were awarded for their bravery in the associated actions.  LtCols and Cols are rarely at the tip of the spear and do not often have opportunities to display extraordinary courage. I would be interested to see how the awards break down per service with regard to rank and total numbers.  I know the Marine Corps has primarily awarded the Silver Star to junior enlisted, platoon sergeants and platoon commanders. Most of these recipients were wounded in the course of their heroics.


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## yarles87 (Dec 30, 2016)

PFC - 1
LCpl - 19
Cpl - 24
Sgt - 27
SSgt - 16
GySgt - 10
MSgt - 2

CWO - 2
2ndLT - 7
1stLT - 8
Captain - 8 
Maj - 4
LtCol - 1
Col and up - 0

Marine Corps - Silver Star


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## Teufel (Dec 30, 2016)

yarles87 said:


> PFC - 1
> LCpl - 19
> Cpl - 24
> Sgt - 27
> ...


 I hate to do math in public but that's roughly 100 enlisted to 30 officers, 70 of which were awarded to E5 and below. That looks like a pretty good ratio to me.

The vast majority of the officers were platoon commanders. There are a few company commanders in there as well. There is one battalion commander, LtCol Lopez, who got caught in a huge ambush in Ramadi while conducting a battlefield circulation with his civil affairs detachment. I remember hearing about it. He was shot multiple times but refused medevac for 48 until the fire fight ended with 120 enemy KIA.  I don't think senior officers should be given valor awards just for being in command of large (battalion and brigade) combat formations in trying circumstances even though this was very common in previous wars. 

How does that stack against the other services?


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## yarles87 (Dec 30, 2016)

USMC, as expected, is seems to be more conservative IRT to the Silver Star when compared to the Army. I did not break down Navy and Air Force stats, as I think the SOF factor for those services would heavily sway it towards E6+. The same might be possible the Army, but I'm not sure. 

Army Breakdown

Private/PFC - 27
Specialist - 64
Corporal - 13 
Sgt - 83
SSgt - 146
SFC - 120
Master Sgt - 45
1st Sgt - 10
Sgt Maj - 8

CWO (all ranks) - 33
2ndLT - 4
1stLT - 28
Captain - 76
Major - 8
LtCol - 22
Col - 6
Brig Gen - 1
Maj Gen - 1


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## Teufel (Dec 30, 2016)

The Air Force issued several pilots Silver Stars for conducting air strikes within the range of enemy weapons.

I wonder what acts of personal heroism those six colonels and two generals did to rate the award.


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## CDG (Dec 30, 2016)

Teufel said:


> The Air Force issued several pilots Silver Stars for conducting air strikes within the range of enemy weapons.
> 
> I wonder what acts of personal heroism those six colonels and two generals did to rate the award.



I tried looking up citations, but couldn't find any in a brief search.  What I did find was that the Major General, Bufford Blount, was the General who led the Thunder Run to Baghdad in 2003.  He was already a MG at the time, and I think it's fairly logical to assume that's what his SS was for.  I will keep digging and try to flesh it out more.


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## Teufel (Dec 30, 2016)

I'm sure everyone can tell that I'm sour on the whole award system. It's been broken for a long time and I don't think it will be fixed anytime soon. Hopefully some guys can get their awards adjusted in the future like we have seen happen recently with Vietnam veterans. 

I have two major issues with the current award system:

1. There are vastly different standards between the different services. This needs to be addressed. A friend of mine was a squad leader during the Battle of Fallujah. An insurgent threw a grenade into a room he was in. One of his Marines tried to jump on it but John reached down, grabbed it from him and threw it out the room.  Or tried to anyway.  The grenade went off as it left his hand and sprayed his face and arm with shrapnel.  MSgt Petry received the Medal of Honor for doing something similar. John was awarded the Bronze Star with V. I'm not saying that John deserves the Medal of Honor or that MSgt Petry does not. There is a big jump between MOH and BV though and I personally believe that John should be wearing a Navy Cross or at least a Silver Star on his chest. I have countless other examples.

2. The standards for the major valor awards should be the same for officers and enlisted. A General Officer better be lopping off heads with an E-tool if he is nominated for a Silver Star or above. I do believe that officers and SNCOs make a disproportionate amount of impact on the battlefield. Good leaders lead from the front and most award citations reflect this. Take Brian Chontosh for example. He was a CAAT platoon commander during the invasion of Iraq.  Then 1st Lt Chontosh told his driver to crash into the enemy trench during an ambush and proceeded to kill 20 insurgents by himself. That's pretty legit. I'm don't think that senior officers should receive Silver Stars just because their units took heavy contact over a deployment though. Disparate standards cheapen awards. I doubt that Major General Blount demonstrated the same level of valor as SFC Cashe did pulling six soldiers out of a burning Bradley under fire.


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## Totentanz (Dec 30, 2016)

@yarles87  - just for the sake of clarity, are the ranks listed according to time of the action (vs when the award was conferred vs highest rank attained)?


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## Teufel (Dec 30, 2016)

Totentanz said:


> @yarles87  - just for the sake of clarity, are the ranks listed according to time of the action (vs when the award was conferred vs highest rank attained)?



valor.defense.gov publishes the rank listed on the award citation.


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## Totentanz (Dec 30, 2016)

Teufel said:


> valor.defense.gov publishes the rank listed on the award citation.


Thanks.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 15, 2017)

This was was worth reading -

It gives some insight into the politics that go into valor awards.  If true, a few of the suggested reasons for an award be knocked down are pretty infuriating.

This paragraph from the piece took me by surprise.  

_Another glaring disparity, Sterner said, is the lack of even a single Medal of Honor for any Air Force personnel dating to 9/11. The service's senior leaders have indicated there are at least two names who appear to meet the necessary criteria: Robert Gutierrez and Dustin Temple, both combat controllers recognized with Air Force Crosses for extraordinary lifesaving actions in Afghanistan. _

The military's massive valor awards review will result in fewer than 100 upgrades


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## CDG (Jan 15, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> This was was worth reading -
> 
> It gives some insight into the politics that go into valor awards.  If true, a few of the suggested reasons for an award be knocked down are pretty infuriating.
> 
> ...



John Chapman deserves an upgrade as well, IMHO.  We had a thread, or it was discussed in a thread, on here awhile back.  I'll see if I can find it.

Air Force Magazine

ETA:  I found that thread.

The Battle of Takur Ghar


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## Gunz (Jan 15, 2017)

Half the dudes in my Combined Action Platoon should've gotten Bronze w/V but the Marines are stingy. I know an Army veteran, a former Public Information Pogue at Pleiku, who got a Bronze because he and his CO were both Buckeyes. Fuck it. It don't mean nothin. You know and your bros know what really happened. If it were up to me every goddam American who fought on Takur Ghar would've gotten a medal.


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## Teufel (Jan 15, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> This was was worth reading -
> 
> It gives some insight into the politics that go into valor awards.  If true, a few of the suggested reasons for an award be knocked down are pretty infuriating.
> 
> ...



It doesn't surprise me to see a bunch of awards at NSW upgraded. They've already awarded more valor awards in the GWOT (and book deals) than their much bigger brother ARSOF....and the entire Marine Corps.


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## CDG (Mar 31, 2017)

Interesting changes to military awards.  I don't have any issue with these changes, although there need to be a lot more changes to the awards system, as has been discussed in this thread.

12 military awards now eligible for new 'C' and 'R' devices, and 2 no longer rate a 'V'


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## Gunz (Mar 31, 2017)

CDG said:


> Interesting changes to military awards.  I don't have any issue with these changes, although there need to be a lot more changes to the awards system, as has been discussed in this thread.
> 
> 12 military awards now eligible for new 'C' and 'R' devices, and 2 no longer rate a 'V'



Interesting and probably for the good...but I was hoping to see the demise of the administrative Bronze Star. The name is so associated--at least in public perception--with action under fire, its use as an award for non-combat achievement seems confusing to the uninitiated and unfair to people who've had to hang their ass over the edge.


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## Teufel (Mar 31, 2017)

CDG said:


> Interesting changes to military awards.  I don't have any issue with these changes, although there need to be a lot more changes to the awards system, as has been discussed in this thread.
> 
> 12 military awards now eligible for new 'C' and 'R' devices, and 2 no longer rate a 'V'



I don't think they should have stripped the achievement medals of the combat V. Let's be honest, the Marine Corps is the only service that did it because our awards system is super stingy.  I got an achievement medal with v (and Purple Heart) for my deployment into Baghdad ISO 10th Mountain during the surge. My Army peers all got Bronze Stars. The different services administer awards differently. No reason to cut the V off an achievement medal. 

This alphabet soup business seems excessively complicated and now you can earn a VCR on your commendation medal if you play your cards right.


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## Kraut783 (Mar 31, 2017)

Wonder if any retro or upgrade for past awards (GWOT) will come out of this.


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## Teufel (Mar 31, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> Wonder if any retro or upgrade for past awards (GWOT) will come out of this.



I would imagine that they will create a process to petition to add a letter to your award.


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## Kraut783 (Mar 31, 2017)

Heh, not me...I'm retired   

But you know how they like to retro stuff for GWOT

EDIT:  missed where only retro to Jan 2016.


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## Gunz (Mar 31, 2017)

Teufel said:


> I don't think they should have stripped the achievement medals of the combat V. Let's be honest, the Marine Corps is the only service that did it because our awards system is super stingy.  I got an achievement medal with v (and Purple Heart) for my deployment into Baghdad ISO 10th Mountain during the surge. My Army peers all got Bronze Stars. The different services administer awards differently. No reason to cut the V off an achievement medal.
> 
> This alphabet soup business seems excessively complicated and now you can earn a VCR on your commendation medal if you play your cards right.



No disrespect sir, but I couldn't help notice the correlation between Marine Corps award stinginess and your ratio of "likes" received to that of "likes" given out.


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## Teufel (Mar 31, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> No disrespect sir, but I couldn't help notice the correlation between Marine Corps award stinginess and your ratio of "likes" received to that of "likes" given out.


I suppose in both cases everyone knows you truly earned what you've received.


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## Kraut783 (Mar 31, 2017)

For the Army, the C device could eliminate the need for the CAB....


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## Teufel (Mar 31, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> For the Army, the C device could eliminate the need for the CAB....



I don't think so. Isn't the CAB a badge to denote being in direct combat? The C device, as I understand it, indicates that the award was earned in a war zone but not necessarily in harms way. Your admin clerk could earn a comm with C but not meet the requirements for a CAB for example. 

Anyway, aren't you guys adopting an expert version of the CAB to parallel the EIB?


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## CDG (Apr 1, 2017)

Teufel said:


> I don't think so. Isn't the CAB a badge to denote being in direct combat? The C device, as I understand it, indicates that the award was earned in a war zone but not necessarily in harms way. Your admin clerk could earn a comm with C but not meet the requirements for a CAB for example.
> 
> Anyway, aren't you guys adopting an expert version of the CAB to parallel the EIB?



IDK, Sir.  Reads to me like direct combat is the qualifier.

*“C” device. *Recognizes meritorious service or achievement under combat conditions, and *authorized only if the service or achievement was performed while personnel were exposed to hostile action or significant risk*:

While engaged in action against an enemy of the U.S.
While engaged in military operations involving conflict with a foreign force.
While serving with friendly forces engaged in armed conflict in which the U.S. is not a principal party.


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## Teufel (Apr 1, 2017)

CDG said:


> IDK, Sir.  Reads to me like direct combat is the qualifier.
> 
> *“C” device. *Recognizes meritorious service or achievement under combat conditions, and *authorized only if the service or achievement was performed while personnel were exposed to hostile action or significant risk*:
> 
> ...


I.e. In receipt of imminent danger pay. Being on a FOB in Iraq exposes you to hostile action because you could get mortared.


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## Kraut783 (Apr 3, 2017)

Pretty close language...except for the hostile /imminent danger pay.

CAB criteria:
-May be awarded to any Soldier.
-Soldier must be performing assigned duties in an area where hostile fire pay or imminent danger pay is authorized.
-Soldier must be personally present and actively engaging or being engaged by the enemy, and performing satisfactorily in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement.
-Soldier must *NOT* be assigned or attached to a unit that would qualify the Soldier for the Combat Infantry Badge (CIB/Combat Medical Badge (CMB). For example, an 11B assigned to Corps staff is eligible for award of the CAB. However, an 11B assigned to an infantry battalion is not eligible for award of the CAB.
-In addition to Army Soldiers, the CAB may also be awarded to members of other U.S. Armed Forces and foreign military personnel assigned to a U.S. Army unit, provided they meet the above criteria (for example, KATUSA’s in the 2d Infantry Division).


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## Teufel (Apr 3, 2017)

I think this part is the difference between the CAB and the "C", "Soldier must be personally present and actively engaging or being engaged by the enemy, and performing satisfactorily in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement."


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## Gunz (Apr 3, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> *-Soldier must be personally present and actively engaging or being engaged by the enemy, and performing satisfactorily in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement.*



Similar to the CAR.

*...the individual must have participated in a bona fide ground or surface combat fire fight or action during which he was under enemy fire and his performance while under fire was satisfactory.

*
Except...the former says "actively engaging _*OR *_being engaged..." which means, I guess, that technically, if your engaging the enemy but they're not shooting back, you're still eligible. 

The CAR eligibility makes it clear you must be under enemy fire.


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## Kraut783 (Apr 3, 2017)

Teufel said:


> I think this part is the difference between the CAB and the "C", "Soldier must be personally present and actively engaging or being engaged by the enemy, and performing satisfactorily in accordance with the prescribed rules of engagement."



I agree Sir,...had to step back for a sec and look again at the wording of the criteria.


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## Teufel (Apr 3, 2017)

Hey if there is one thing I know about the Army is that you guys only add flair, you don't take it away.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 3, 2017)

The CIB/CMB/CAB as they were intended to be awarded, were good ideas. The way many have been awarded them, takes away from the meaning IMHO. More than a few TOC bitches and FOBBIT's sticking their chests out with badges they didn't earn.

$.02


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## Kraut783 (Apr 3, 2017)

So....maybe an "F" designation for the Fobbits?


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## digrar (Apr 3, 2017)

Teufel said:


> Hey if there is one thing I know about the Army is that you guys only add flair, you don't take it away.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 4, 2017)

At this point it doesn't matter.


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## Gunz (Apr 4, 2017)

Jennifer Aniston.


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## CDG (Apr 4, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Jennifer Aniston.



She should be a part of the awards system.


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