# Zero a Rifle at 100 yds but for 300 - 600 and beyond



## 08steeda (Jun 17, 2009)

I am wondering if any of the experts here know of a target that can be used to zero a weapon at 100 yds or even 50 yds but simulates longer ranges. I do not have anything longer than 100 yds near home and I have 2 rifles that I just scoped and I also put new rings and scope mounts on my M1A.

I will get to a proper range but want to get it close for the range I have.

Obviously I understand ballistics differ between different rounds. I primarily use 7.62 Match grade ammo for the M1A. But where do I aim vs. the actual bullseye at 50 or 100 yds.

I guess I could do the math on the expected trajectory, but I wondered if there is anything like that available. I don't want to waste a lot of time doing this if it is not worth the effort. But I would like to get it on the paper so I can properly adjust the scope once I do get to the longer range.

There is a 600 YD range about 1 hour from home, so that is probably as far as I will be able to shoot. Plus I don't have the skills for anything longer! 

I just want to get close and fear my little ranges are so short that it won't help much! It will get me on line but elevation is the issue here.

NOTE: I did use a Cabela's Laser Bore Sight (Laser in a casing) to get it in the ball park.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 17, 2009)

What bullet are you using (grains)?

What is the muzzle velocity (FPS)? 

What is you rifling twist rate (1/10 – 1/12 in)?

What is the barrel length?

This would be the best way to get zero’s at 100yds out to what ever distance…

http://www.biggameinfo.com/BalCalc.aspx


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 17, 2009)

JAB's on it.


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## TheWookie (Jun 17, 2009)

Does the scope have a bullet drop compensator or target turrets?  If it does, then longer distances are just be a turn away from the the zero you get at 100yds.  With a few other variables...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 17, 2009)

To give to a basic idea, you can apply hold off, use a Bullet Drop Compensator (BDC) radical or make adjustments to change your zero from 100yd to what ever said distance. 

For example:

When zeroed at 100yd, with out making adjustments my bullet will fall 15 inches at 300yd. So I would either hold off, use a BDC radical (aim 15 inches higher) or I would make an adjustment to bring my zero 15 inches higher (come up 3MOA at 300yd). Thus bringing my POA and POI together at distance. 

Like the program in the link I posted, most of the mathematics are readily available. This eliminates having to keep data books and what not and simply makes LR shooting a lot easier now days. However, I would always keep data books and confirm your hold off/ come ups at actual distance…


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## dusty (Jun 17, 2009)

You need to establish the dope for your particular gun, as well as the ballistical aspects of the round you're using.

For example, @ 75 degrees F. and 600 ft., with no wind, my 168 gr. .308, with my scope, comes up 2 at 200, 5 at 300, 8 at 400, 11 at 500 and so on up to 1000 yards with a zero at 100 yards.

Once again, this is a good tool to get acquainted with the system:

http://www.shooterready.com/


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## 08steeda (Jun 17, 2009)

Thanks Guys! I guess it is time I bought a chronograph and some Shooting Ballistics tables.

I will also look at the links your provided!

For my M1A I shoot .308 Win Match 168 gr. Although I do have a variety. I use a Springfield Scope (6 - 20X50) that does have a Bullet Drop Compensator on it! So that one is a no brainer - even for me!

For my Remington 700 in 7mm it is brand new and the scope I had is a decent Leupold but without the compensator.

The Remington 700 in .22-250 is also has a Leupold scope without the compensator.

My Bushy and my COLT AR's have Leupold Mark 4 CQT's on it. Plus I shoot a wide variety of ammo there!!!

As I have said before in other posts, I am just getting into it again after about 12 years. I forgot a lot and did all close-in shooting with iron sights. Never did the whole scope thing much, until now. IPSC - 3 gun shoots are all within 200 yds and in most cases 100 yds which is where i spent all of my time shooting during my NG days.

I just thought maybe there were paper targets setup for this. But again, that would be just stupid because each type of round has different ballistics!

I was just looking for a short-cut! I know, in the light of day - S-T-U-P-I-D!!!


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## Chad (Jun 17, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> ..or I would make an adjustment to bring my zero 15 inches higher (come up 3MOA at 300yd). Thus bringing my POA and POI together at distance....



3+3/5x-43.8+pie/beer=3MOA=15"@300yds


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## dusty (Jun 17, 2009)

08steeda said:


> Thanks Guys! I guess it is time I bought a chronograph and some Shooting Ballistics tables.
> 
> I will also look at the links your provided!
> 
> ...


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## HOLLiS (Jun 17, 2009)

Wanna cut your group in half............ reload.  

Chrony is a must have.  There is some good ballistic software.  Sierra makes one.  Also on a M1A1 you can turn the gas off and make it a manual operated. 

Reloading is to shooting as fore play is to getting laid........






No wonder there are all these cherry boyz out there. :)


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## 8'Duece (Jun 17, 2009)

So you guy's are telling me that I have to actually *Zero* my rifles ??? :uhh:


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## HOLLiS (Jun 17, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> So you guy's are telling me that I have to actually *Zero* my rifles ??? :uhh:



No you don't.  You can send them to me, I will zero them out for you.  ;)


The old skol way was Kentucky windage.  Especially when they had fixed sights.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 18, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> So you guy's are telling me that I have to actually *Zero* my rifles ?



Nope you have to be able to shoot in order to zero.....:eek:

Hey but no kidding "zero" means you put the even out the front sight post and center the rear sight aperture right?:doh::uhh:


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## 08steeda (Jun 18, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> Wanna cut your group in half............ reload.
> 
> Chrony is a must have. There is some good ballistic software. Sierra makes one. Also on a M1A1 you can turn the gas off and make it a manual operated.
> 
> ...


 
You volunteering to teach me how to reload? Yes I know the mantra well. Just have not taken the leap yet!!!


FYI- what is the advantage to making it manual. I assume that it becomes more accurate because of the lack of action in the receiver!


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## HOLLiS (Jun 18, 2009)

08steeda said:


> You volunteering to teach me how to reload? Yes I know the mantra well. Just have not taken the leap yet!!!
> 
> 
> FYI- what is the advantage to making it manual. I assume that it becomes more accurate because of the lack of action in the receiver!



AZ Started a reloading thread or if your in Orygun, cruise on by.  It is probably a lot easier than you think.  Precision reloading only takes a little more time than plinking. 

Supposedly it should be more accurate.  I never turned my off.  If I want more accuracy at range I have:








And a few others.


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## dusty (Jun 18, 2009)

08steeda said:


> You volunteering to teach me how to reload? Yes I know the mantra well. Just have not taken the leap yet!!!
> 
> 
> FYI- what is the advantage to making it manual. I assume that it becomes more accurate because of the lack of action in the receiver!



The pressure of the gas released makes the chamber pressure variable.

That's why bolt guns have been used in the sub-MOA bolt guns for many years.


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 18, 2009)

Variations in amount of pressure available beyond the gas port
movement in the action due to the action cycling

basically a bolt gun takes all the variables out that are easiest to remove beyond operator error.


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## 08steeda (Jun 18, 2009)

Ranger Psych said:


> Variations in amount of pressure available beyond the gas port
> movement in the action due to the action cycling
> 
> basically a bolt gun takes all the variables out that are easiest to remove beyond operator error.


 

I have always known about how accurate bolt guns can be. Didn't realize that the gas pressure varies so much! Makes sense though!

I wonder if you could make a switch or gizmo that would turn the M1A gas system off then be able to turn it back on again, quickly and easily!


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## HOLLiS (Jun 18, 2009)

The actual reason for the gas shut off on the M1A, is for a crimp cartridge.  I Guess to use the never seen rifle grenade launcher or ......


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 18, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> The actual reason for the gas shut off on the M1A, is for a crimp cartridge.  I Guess to use the never seen rifle grenade launcher or ......



Ding-Ding-Ding!

That is why the M14 has the shut off, but it will give you a better shot group as well...

Boltgun That is sooooooooo 2 thousand and 8 !


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## 08steeda (Jun 18, 2009)

I don't suppose my Springfield Armory Super Match has the shut off!?! I will look when I get home.

I will have to find it on the net so I know what I am looking for first!?!

Very Interesting!


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## HOLLiS (Jun 18, 2009)

08steeda said:


> I don't suppose my Springfield Armory Super Match has the shut off!?! I will look when I get home.
> 
> I will have to find it on the net so I know what I am looking for first!?!
> 
> Very Interesting!



Gas port near the end of the barrel.   It is on the left hand side, located between the barrel and gas calendar.  It is a straight slotted round head.  Up and down (perpendicular to the barrel) it is on,  turn it 90 degrees, slot parallel to the barrel it is off.


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## 08steeda (Jun 19, 2009)

Thanks, I knew a Marine would know!!!!


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## 8'Duece (Jun 19, 2009)

08steeda said:


> Thanks, I knew a Marine would know!!!!



It doesn't take a Marine, just another soldier or sailor or airman to know his his shit. 

Hollis on the other hand is a rare exception to this particular area of study. :cool:


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## 08steeda (Jun 19, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> It doesn't take a Marine, just another soldier or sailor or airman to know his his shit.
> 
> Hollis on the other hand is a rare exception to this particular area of study. :cool:


 
Yeah but Marines all have an affinity for M-14's!!!

I am new to the M1A and just have not had the time to GET EDUMICATED! I know there are many folks here who have experience on the more recent versions like the M-21 and M-25's.


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## 8'Duece (Jun 19, 2009)

08steeda said:


> Yeah but Marines all have an affinity for M-14's!!!
> 
> I am new to the M1A and just have not had the time to GET EDUMICATED! I know there are many folks here who have experience on the more recent versions like the M-21 and M-25's.



Can't argue with that. :cool:


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 19, 2009)

08steeda said:


> I know there are many folks here who have experience on the more recent versions like the M-21 and M-25's.



I think I saw one once on TV


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## 08steeda (Jun 19, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> Can't argue with that. :cool:


 
I guess I have more money than brains!!! I could have kitted 2 or 3 AR's for the price of this rifle. But I already have 2 of those!!!

But it is sooooo cool! I love it!!!! Even with the GAS on, it drives tacks!!! At least out to 200 yds. I hope to get her out to a real range soonest!!! I am sure it can shoot better than I can for the time being!!!


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## 08steeda (Jun 19, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> I think I saw one once on TV


 

Funny!!!! I know it is no bolt gun, but they are fun to shoot!!!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 19, 2009)

I shot my first High Power match with an M1A (M14) NM, I think I was 14 years old. I love the old wood and iron "man stopper" but my AR's are just better shooters...

They are great rifles!


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## 08steeda (Jun 19, 2009)

I wanted to get a White-feather but when I got mine Afghanistan and Iraq (rightfully so) needed them more than I did! So I got the Super Match with the Black McMillan Stock. The Walnut is prettier! But I like the look of mine!


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## 08steeda (Jun 19, 2009)

Back to the subject at hand! I decided to replace the 2 scopes that do not have bullet drop compensator's on them. So I can zero and adjust more easily.

Now I need to research which scopes to get. Always been a Leupold fan! 

Opinions on scopes for my 7mm Mag or my .22-250?


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## TheWookie (Jun 19, 2009)

08steeda said:


> Leupold fan!



Me, too!:2c:


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## TheWookie (Jun 19, 2009)

08steeda said:


> Yeah but Marines all have an affinity for M-14's!!!
> 
> I am new to the M1A and just have not had the time to GET EDUMICATED! I know there are many folks here who have experience on the more recent versions like the M-21 and M-25's.



Back in the day at DM school we used the M-14s, modified as the DMR or Designated Marksman Rifle.  McMillan stocks, Leupold/Unertl scopes, Harris Bi-pods.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Marine_Corps_Designated_Marksman_Rifle
I'm not a big fan of that system, too be honest.  For precision shooting I'd take a bolt gun any day, I think most guys would.  At the schoolhouse we would bring the DMRs down to the 100yd line each day to cold-bore them, and with some guns, we would get major deviations from the prior day's cold bore.  It's very frustrating, to say the least when you're working with a gun like that with a new shooter, trying to figure out if it's the shooter or the gun.  More often then not the problems can be traced back to the gas system: some guns could shoot could with a dirty gas system, some would be way off with just a little gunk.  AND, I'm talking way off -- like in the birm.  No shit.  You can't have that with a precision rifle.  Or a rifle that's expected to do a precision job.  As I've mentioned, I was involved with the R&D of the new DMR up in Quantico before I got out in 99, and it might be a better gun then the original DMRs or modified M-14s.  But it's still the same platform.  Give me a bolt gun any day.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 25, 2009)

I have been looking at Nikon lately, my buddy had the “tactical” and it was great glass. Nikon has a BDC scope set for several different ballistics.

Also Chad works for a PR scope company, you may want to PM him…


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## 8'Duece (Jun 25, 2009)

TheWookie said:


> Back in the day at DM school we used the M-14s, modified as the DMR or Designated Marksman Rifle.  McMillan stocks, Leupold/Unertl scopes, Harris Bi-pods.  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U.S._Marine_Corps_Designated_Marksman_Rifle
> I'm not a big fan of that system, too be honest.  For precision shooting I'd take a bolt gun any day, I think most guys would.  At the schoolhouse we would bring the DMRs down to the 100yd line each day to cold-bore them, and with some guns, we would get major deviations from the prior day's cold bore.  It's very frustrating, to say the least when you're working with a gun like that with a new shooter, trying to figure out if it's the shooter or the gun.  More often then not the problems can be traced back to the gas system: some guns could shoot could with a dirty gas system, some would be way off with just a little gunk.  AND, I'm talking way off -- like in the birm.  No shit.  You can't have that with a precision rifle.  Or a rifle that's expected to do a precision job.  As I've mentioned, I was involved with the R&D of the new DMR up in Quantico before I got out in 99, and it might be a better gun then the original DMRs or modified M-14s.  But it's still the same platform.  Give me a bolt gun any day.




What was the round count on those rifles ?

Did those rifles need a bore replacement ?

What dope was being used ?

How skilled are the shooters ?

Dirty weapons are a no go in anyones back yard. 

A DMR should be semi auto, not bolt action. 

What range distances do you expect out of a DMR rifle. :uhh:


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## TheWookie (Jun 25, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> What was the round count on those rifles ?
> 
> Did those rifles need a bore replacement ?
> 
> ...



I was referring to the old DMR's.  They were the original ones the armorer's threw together up at Quantico, I thought about that afterwards that I should have stated that a little more clearly.  That's the reason for the mixture of scopes, we taught the Leupold and the old Unertal scopes, but the new ones built only have Leupold's.   

The dope they used and the one in question was the cold bore zero from the day before.  Or earlier in the day, some days we would let the guns cool down while we did observation exercises and then re-shoot the cold bore.  Sometimes we would do mandatory cleanings, sometimes we would just let them cool and then shoot them again to confirm the cold bore.

Our preference was to always have them shooting the cold bore with a clean weapon, but sometimes that's shooter preference, in my experience.  So we allowed them to shoot it like that and try it, and then we encouraged them to always shoot a cold bore with a clean weapon.

The shooter's were all students, so use that for an experience level, but I could get behind one of them guns and it would do the same thing.  It was more the gun then it was shooter error.

Lastly, I agree that a DMR should be semi-auto.  But I'd rather have a bolt gun, myself.

I can check when I get home tonight, but I think the requirement for accuracy for that school was targets out to 500 - 700 yards.  The school was taught at Dam Neck where we had platforms out to 700 yards.

Good questions, I should have been more clear earlier.


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## TheWookie (Jun 25, 2009)

Also, these DM's or the ones that we trained back then who worked/work for Security Force Battalion, they are all looking at cold bore, clean weapon type of shooting scenarios.  For the most part.  As opposed to your battlefield DM who is shooting more often, at multiple targets in a wider and more complex battlefield.  These DM's are  stationed at Naval Installations around the world and in the US and the emphasis on training them was more about precision shooting scenarios -- i.e. with hostages, in and around nukes and other special weapons and equipment.   But we had these jalopy of weapons at the time in the original DMR. 

Keep in mind,,we also trained FAST Company, but we usually did a different course with them, usually it was only FAST Co guys and in that type of course we placed more emphasis on multiple targets and more scenarios to what they might expect deploying to an area.


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## 08steeda (Jun 28, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> I have been looking at Nikon lately, my buddy had the “tactical” and it was great glass. Nikon has a BDC scope set for several different ballistics.
> 
> Also Chad works for a PR scope company, you may want to PM him…




Thanks I will PM him!

I am a strong believer in Nikon lenses. I have about 12 Nikon lenses for my photo gear and always hot Nikon after my Survival days end crossed into Combat Photo.

I have looked at the scopes a few times and they look impressive!


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## 08steeda (Jun 28, 2009)

My Springfield Super Match is way serious accurate. At least out to 200 yds. I mean I am shooting clovers all day long. Matter of fact I put target stickers all over the paper because if I shoot more than a 3 - 5 shot volley I can't tell any longer which one was my last shot.

I know, I know 200 YDS ain't shit. But it is all I have close to home. 

I agree that a bolt gun is always more accurate. Just the mechanics of the weapon would dictate it with a quality bolt!

But my M1a is a tac driver for sure.

The only weapon I own that is more accurate is my .22-250 which is pretty darn wicked too! But then it is a bolt! Probably the 7mm too but I have not even scoped that yet. So I am lacking rounds down range with that particular weapon.

All of them can shoot better than I can. Especially when wind, elevation and environmental conditions requires expert know how.


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## dusty (Jun 28, 2009)

08steeda said:


> My Springfield Super Match is way serious accurate. At least out to 200 yds. I mean I am shooting clovers all day long. Matter of fact I put target stickers all over the paper because if I shoot more than a 3 - 5 shot volley I can't tell any longer which one was my last shot.
> 
> I know, I know 200 YDS ain't shit. But it is all I have close to home.
> 
> ...




*Worth every penny and worth every second of time spent:*

:cool::cool::cool:

http://www.badlandstactical.net/schedule.htm


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## 08steeda (Jul 1, 2009)

Dusty,

Would you suggest the Basic Sniper Course or the Semi-Auto Sniper Course?

I would hate to show up with my M1a at the basic course and get laughed out of there!!!

But I am not sure if the SASS course is for newbies or not.

Might have to wait until next years courses based upon schedule. A lot of them are already done for the year. 

I will ping them and ask about which course they recommend and schedule. I really want to learn how to shoot 700 - 800 yds!


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