# Consensus on stance



## 7point62 (Mar 30, 2009)

for combat/defensive handgun.

Just curious how many different techniques are being worked here among the shooters. When I draw my firearm, my left and right hand meet and extend straight out to lock...at the same time that weapon is coming up, it is natural for me to automatically take a side-step to the left (or right) while going into a crouch with my feet ending up approx 2'3" apart instep to instep, the left foot a few inches out front of the right. This is my natural balanced fighting/shooting stance and one I have trouble deviating from...when I fool around with other stances.


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## skeeter (Mar 30, 2009)

With stances I always work with the natural point of aim. Close your eyes and draw your weapon, see where your sights are compared to your target. Then turn your body to line up your NPA with your target. You might have to close your eyes several times to get this to work. After you finish take a look at your stance relative to your target. Thats what you want. Hope this helps.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Mar 30, 2009)

I use the isosceles stance, just because that is what I was taught in previous mil/leo careers.  It makes sense because of where your body armor is located, where as a weaver stance you are left somewhat vulnerable (remember the whole METT-TC thing though, which obviously changes things, along with your stance).  

Of course, there are arguments for both.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 30, 2009)

I don’t feel stance really matters in “combat shooting” due to the constant change in environment, terrain and use of cover. Full lock out two-handed grip will give you the best platform for recoil control/ recovery. But in some cases this also needs to be modified to accommodate the above.

For instance I will blade my body for a quick peak around a corner, handgun almost in a weaver type grip/ stance. However if I am slicing the pie, I will maintain full lock out and side step.

I use full lock out for shooting standing, kneeling, prone/ rolled over prone and supine. So my upper body stays the same in all positions, but yet again terrain and the use of cover may force me to adjust.

When firing one handed I blade stepping forward with the firing side foot, I extend the pistol completely and bring my non-firing hand to my center chest. This allows me to control the pistol and limit unnecessary movement caused by my other arm. Only problem is, if I actually was wounded in one arm, would I be able to bring my hand to my chest? So I also practice shooting with a dangling arm as well, I try to limit movement by hooking my thumb of the non-firing hand in my pocket. Works pretty good.

Simply put, everybody is different and everyone has different obstacle and environments they will be faced with. Train to be proficient in what you are use to, but every once in a while step out side the box and through some silly shit in there. Test you bodies reactions to different firing positions where you are forced to change your stance and or grip of the pistol. That way it is not such a shock, or at least you have some form of understanding of how to deliver a good shot from that wacky position…:2c:


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## dusty (Mar 30, 2009)

I'm a proponent of the "shoot-first" stance.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Mar 30, 2009)

dusty said:


> I'm a proponent of the "shoot-first" stance.



Is that followed by the "ask questions" stance?


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## Centermass (Mar 30, 2009)

AKA "I want answers and I want them now" stance. 


You left out a lot of variables, leaving a lot of "variables"

In the end, the combination of what JAB and Boon said, METT-T will drive the train more so than anything else. 

What is the target? Distance-How far out from you? Cover? No cover? Type of cover? Weapon(s) being used? Day? Night? Is Jupiter aligned with Pluto? j/k 



Lot's of us have a so called "natural stance" that we prefer, but as we all know, yourself included, what works in one situation may not work in another. 

Rather than stance alone, I'd say the bottom line is the POSITION (S) that is/are the most effective at neutralizing the threat first and leaving you alive will always be the best.


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## Mac_NZ (Mar 30, 2009)

I'm normally to busy running away.

Seriously though I don't know the name of the stances I use.  The only time I use a pistol is during FISCH for a secondary and then it's (I'm a lefty) rifle forced down and to the right whilst stepping left with the left foot at the same time rotating the hood and then drawing it with the left hand bringing it to belly height where it meets the right hand (I use the egg and cup) and then forcing it out and stepping back at the same time with the right foot.  Both feet point forward and are shoulder width apart, knees are bent in a semi crouch, same stance I got taught for CQC.   I had to do that 5 times in the lounge to figure out all the parts to it and now the dog is looking at me like I'm queer.  

I was originally taught to keep me left foot rear and pivot it 90 degrees out and step out with my right foot and lean forward and low into it, still do in the bush but I don't use a pistol then, for the same weight I get a mag of 5.56 or a couple of bombs.  got thrashed on the CQC stance by a Groupy that works out of our Fmn Trg wing for the whole armor being front on reason, it made sense so I learnt it.  Also it seems to be a bit more stable to advance forward or back with.

Knowing my luck I'm probably doing it wrong


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## pardus (Mar 31, 2009)

So you guys carry a pistol now?

I was reeducated by an SF instructor who seen me advancing/snap shooting, he saw I was always sideways (smaller target) he told me "we use body armor now you dinosaur fuck, face front!" OK... :uhh:   Very un-natural but makes total sense.

I do want to see the yanks operate in the bush though.... 



Mac_NZ said:


> I'm normally to busy running away.
> 
> Seriously though I don't know the name of the stances I use.  The only time I use a pistol is during FISCH for a secondary and then it's (I'm a lefty) rifle forced down and to the right whilst stepping left with the left foot at the same time rotating the hood and then drawing it with the left hand bringing it to belly height where it meets the right hand (I use the egg and cup) and then forcing it out and stepping back at the same time with the right foot.  Both feet point forward and are shoulder width apart, knees are bent in a semi crouch, same stance I got taught for CQC.   I had to do that 5 times in the lounge to figure out all the parts to it and now the dog is looking at me like I'm queer.
> 
> ...


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## Headshot (Mar 31, 2009)

Locking a pistol out too far is not good, it is not a long barrel weapon and the closer the front sight to your sight within reason the better.  Standing perp to the target means that if you take a round in the side it can take out multiple internal organs.  Standing face front (weaver) means you might take a round but only possibly take one to one internal vital.  Practice your dry fires daily and learn your natural hold off to insure your quickest, and most accurate natural POA.  BTW, don't forget to practice unsafetying if it applies to your weapon.  Well exercised personal preference almost always overrides personal preference of others.  Agree with first sentence in J.A.B.'s post.


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## Mac_NZ (Mar 31, 2009)

pardus said:


> So you guys carry a pistol now?
> 
> I was reeducated by an SF instructor who seen me advancing/snap shooting, he saw I was always sideways (smaller target) he told me "we use body armor now you dinosaur fuck, face front!" OK... :uhh:   Very un-natural but makes total sense.
> 
> I do want to see the yanks operate in the bush though....



Only for FISCH mate and that's only because we have so many on our 502.  The Rifle Coy peons have to go without unless they're on a gun. 
You do know we have the 226 now and got rid of the Hi-Power aye?

Yeah I'm in the same boat as you, I used to shoot sideways all the time as well.  Guess we have been teaching the same thing since Malaya/Nam because all my Pl Sgts made me shoot like that back in the day.

I bet your in front of the mirror now with a carbine shouting out "UP" and getting all teary eyed aint ya. ;)


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## pardus (Mar 31, 2009)

Mac_NZ said:


> You do know we have the 226 now and got rid of the Hi-Power aye?
> 
> 
> Fuckpig, I'm not that old! I was using the 226 with the Squadron back in the day...
> ...



The Malaya/Borneo/Nam boys knew their shit and no mistake.

p.s. fuck off lol


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## arizonaguide (Mar 31, 2009)

;):cool:


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## koz (Mar 31, 2009)

Personally I think his finger is too far across the trigger and he definitely doesn't have good sight alignment/picture...  But his stance is pretty good.  ;)


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## Cabbage Head (Apr 1, 2009)

Not much I can add to what already has been said.  My opinion on stances is that you should try them all.  Each is good in its own right.  However, once you apply them to something other than range work things become different.  

I feel that grip, sight alignment and trigger squeeze is most important.  It’s those things that you incorporate into what ever position the situation puts you into.  I shoot a bastardized version of combat/weaver.  Elbows are bent (not locked out) support side is broken more so (not quite "modified weaver") while static firing and moving.  Clearing corners, more weaver than not.  As for what stance, the situation determines the tactics.

That’s just my own :2c:


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## HOLLiS (Apr 1, 2009)

Kind of like the above.   I don't lock my elbows when using two hands, One pulls the other pushes.   Also I like to shot off hand best.


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## 08steeda (Apr 1, 2009)

Cabbage Head said:


> Not much I can add to what already has been said. My opinion on stances is that you should try them all. Each is good in its own right. However, once you apply them to something other than range work things become different.
> 
> I feel that grip, sight alignment and trigger squeeze is most important. It’s those things that you incorporate into what ever position the situation puts you into. I shoot a bastardized version of combat/weaver. Elbows are bent (not locked out) support side is broken more so (not quite "modified weaver") while static firing and moving. Clearing corners, more weaver than not. As for what stance, the situation determines the tactics.
> 
> That’s just my own :2c:


 

Good :2c:! I totally agree with you. No one method works for all scenarios and situations. It is important to become proficient with many. However the foundation: Grip, Sight Alignment and Trigger Pull are essential to each and every one of them. I would also suggest familiarization with the weapon of choice. 

Being able to transition, change mags, clear a jam or stove pipe, etc. WITH BOTH HANDS! Not just your dominant hand!!!

Most shooters who are one sided shooters will put themselves into harms way to shoot with their strong hand vs. staying under cover and using the weak hand!!!

Saw it all the time in IPSC. Fortunately no one was shooting back!


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## Mac_NZ (Apr 2, 2009)

koz said:


> Personally I think his finger is too far across the trigger and he definitely doesn't have good sight alignment/picture...  But his stance is pretty good.  ;)



The facial alone makes up for those bad points ;)


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## JBS (Apr 2, 2009)

No "Stance" thread could ever be complete without the mention of the gangster cock-eyed stance:






I've always gotten a kick out of this.


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## koz (Apr 2, 2009)

JBS said:


> No "Stance" thread could ever be complete without the mention of the gangster cock-eyed stance:
> 
> I've always gotten a kick out of this.



No, no, no.... you've got it all wrong.  The PROPER gangster cock-eyed stance also must include tilting of the hat, bandana and pants at least to the knees with underwear showing...


----
So I was going to post a funny video but ran across this instead.  It's educational...  IMO the carjackings/ robberies are fake but the mentality is scary...

warning contains profanity
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lWCJpuZDrdE"]YouTube - I'm Sooo Hood!  Gangsta Life[/ame]


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## pardus (Apr 2, 2009)

I can't watch that BS!

I would shoot everyone of those retards, do the world a favor!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 2, 2009)

Thats just fucking great!  Let one of those motherfuckers try that shit with me...


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## Centermass (Apr 2, 2009)

I always love it when these fucking rocket scientists do their shit and then video it for the whole world to see.

Idiots wearing his banny during the drive by and then doesn't have it own during the robbery. :uhh:

My guess is they've already been caught up-either by rival gang and retribution or by the gang units working that area. Elmo could have figured it out.


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## dusty (Apr 2, 2009)

Makes me involuntarily start gathering _chi_.


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## 8'Duece (Apr 2, 2009)

Their just misunderstood children.


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## arizonaguide (Apr 4, 2009)

I'n just sayin...know wut I'n sayn..I'n lookin for the weak MF's, Yo!




dusty said:


> Makes me involuntarily start gathering _chi_.


++1!


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## pardus (Apr 6, 2009)

....


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## sgtlew (Apr 7, 2009)

Check out Sharpening the Warriors Edge by Bruce Siddle.  It has some good info on stress and shooting.  The isoscelese stance seams to be the natural reaction in a startle response.  However, it is my opinion that one should practice combat shooting in any position he can get his body into.  Just my $.02.


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## dusty (Apr 7, 2009)

sgtlew said:


> Check out Sharpening the Warriors Edge by Bruce Siddle.  It has some good info on stress and shooting.  The isoscelese stance seams to be the natural reaction in a startle response.  However, it is my opinion that one should practice combat shooting in any position he can get his body into.  Just my $.02.




Concur. Especially inside.

Off hand reload drills, i.e., don't train you for an Iso shot; rooms don't always stay clear, either.:doh:

It's kinda like bowhunting for deer with me-I practice all kinds of contorted positions, because that motherfucker NEVER shows up when and where he's supposed to!


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## Mac_NZ (Apr 7, 2009)

dusty said:


> Concur. Especially inside.
> 
> Off hand reload drills, i.e., don't train you for an Iso shot; rooms don't always stay clear, either.:doh:
> 
> It's kinda like bowhunting for deer with me-I practice all kinds of contorted positions, because that motherfucker NEVER shows up when and where he's supposed to!



I take it's a given that your a master of the weak side shot from the squatting whilst laying a turd position then, that's when a deer always walks past me...

Fuckers...


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## arizonaguide (Apr 7, 2009)

My "natural stance" at this weekend's first tactical class seemed I wanted to go to a "modified weaver" for three reasons:

1. It felt more natural/stable based on previous martial arts training...ie: the icosiles "face forward" (feet even) just seemed too unstable in the event the adversary closed to contact distance, and/or there was another adversary. to easy to get knocked on my ass if contact likely.

2. Being right handed the right foot being slightly back allowed for a quicker drawstroke for me...my holster being slightly canted forward complimented this.

3. The right foot being slightly back allowed for a more rapid "turn and fire" during that exercise/scenario also.

My upper torso still faced (mostly) forward to the target, but my feet were not even, but more of a more stable left foot forward (same as unarmed combat) "boxing" type stance.

kinda explained here as the "modified weaver"
http://www.expertvillage.com/video/29864_guns-stance-modified-weaver.htm

That being said, I still have to agree with Dusty and look forward to much practice shooting on the move, as in real life THAT will probably be the situation. But, just like the golf stroke, you practice first on nice flat ground (best case scenario)...then after good technique/muscle memory is developed I can adapt that and go to different (imperfect/moving) scenarios. I know it's kinda persona-nongrata but Gabe Suarez uses Airsoft to train in the shooting on the move scenarios. 

I think I'll get a couple for me and Momma to play around the house!;)

Great book here:


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## Centermass (Apr 7, 2009)

Mac_NZ said:


> I take it's a given that your a master of the weak side shot from the squatting whilst laying a turd position then, that's when a deer always walks past me...
> 
> Fuckers...



So this was you....I was wondering.......


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## arizonaguide (Apr 7, 2009)

I remember (if I remember 25 years ago correctly) when this happened. 
This was at the library at the University in Anchorage.
Some kids had been throwing snowballs at the moose (with calf, dangerous already), then this poor sap just happens to walk into his death.
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w4s4wejeyS0&feature=related"]YouTube - animal bloopers... moose attacks a guy[/ame]


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