# Pentagon unveils plans for moving women into combat roles



## Marine0311 (Jun 18, 2013)

(Reuters) - A top U.S. military official declared "the days of Rambo are over" as the Pentagon unveiled its plans on Tuesday for integrating women into combat infantry positions following 12 years of war in which they fought and died in Iraq and Afghanistan while barred from front-line fighting jobs.
The plans, which call for gender-neutral job requirements like scaling walls and lifting 55-pound (25-kg) tank ammunition, will require more years of study, education and training before some services open combat jobs to women.


http://www.reuters.com/article/2013/06/19/us-usa-defense-women-idUSBRE95H1G720130619

Also: http://www.cnn.com/2013/06/18/politics/women-combat/index.html

The Pentagon unveiled plans Tuesday for fully integrating women into front-line and special combat roles, including elite forces such as Army Rangers and Navy SEALs.
While Air Force, Army, Navy, Marine and special forces commanders detailed steps they will take, not all shared the same comfort level with the initiative, raising potential real-world scenarios that must be addressed before moving too far forward.
There was concern for how women might handle some of the more taxing physical demands of combat across the board and for how men might view the presence of female troops in tight-knit elite units.
Women are permitted to serve in some hazardous jobs and did so in Iraq and Afghanistan where a number were killed. But it wasn't until January that then-Defense Secretary Leon Panetta formally lifted the official ban on women in combat.


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## Jay (Jun 18, 2013)

Don't drop requirements. If a female can meet the EXACT same requirements as another candidate in the same selection course, as far as I'm concerned she deserves it. That said, I'm a civilian and know absolutely nothing on the subject. My view may be changing in the near future once I'm in.


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## moobob (Jun 18, 2013)

Jay said:


> Don't drop requirements. If a female can meet the EXACT same requirements as another candidate in the same selection course, as far as I'm concerned she deserves it. That said, I'm a civilian and know absolutely nothing on the subject. My view may be changing in the near future once I'm in.


 
That's all they have to do. However, when noone actually makes it through, there's going to be this thing called "undue command influence" and the standards WILL be changed. *Kim Jong Il voice* It is inevitable.


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## pardus (Jun 19, 2013)

moobob said:


> *Kim Jong Il voice* It is inevitable.


 

It's what?


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## Brooklynben (Jun 19, 2013)

Offer Christine Beck a commission to come back to be responsible for monitoring and maintaining standards?


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## Lycurgus (Jun 19, 2013)

Yeap, news outlets jumping way ahead again.  The report of how and where to integrate women (if at all in some SOF)  isn't even due for over 2 years.  Whatever.....


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## Salt USMC (Jun 19, 2013)

Sorry SEALs.  Looks like GI Jane will be a reality in 2016
http://www.utsandiego.com/news/2013/jun/17/Pentagon-women-combat-seals-riverine/all/?print


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## Lycurgus (Jun 19, 2013)

There are so many obstacles for that to ever become a reality.  The training is almost 3 years long before you even do your 1st deployment...the attrition is insane.  Good luck GI Jane!


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## moobob (Jun 19, 2013)

I wouldn't be opposed to having permenant CST/FET type sections in certain units. I think that the feasibility of having women doing any kind of light infantry stuff as their full time job is pretty ludacris.

Interestingly enough, this entire issue is primarily driven by people that have no experience in the military, and as a whole, dislike the institution in general. Yet, the issue is still revisited...


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## pardus (Jun 20, 2013)

While I don't agree with women in front line units per se. I will leave you all with this... Violette Szabo and this... Carve Her Name With Pride


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## SpitfireV (Jun 20, 2013)

Those SOE women were absolutely amazing.


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## Johca (Jun 20, 2013)

http://www.defense.gov/transcripts/transcript.aspx?transcriptid=5259    <-- News Transcript , Department of Defense News Briefing on Implementing Women into Previously Closed Positions, June 18, 2013

Q:  (OFF-MIC) the days of Rambo are over.
  (LAUGHTER)
  Earlier, you had said that the rank-and-file reaction was -- it seemed to say it was not necessarily positive.

MAJ. GEN. SACOLICK:  There's concerns.  And we all share those concerns.  I would -- I think the survey that we're going to produce will be telling.  I mean, more often than not, we listen to the -- who we hear is the -- more than vocal minority in our formations are filled with the quiet professionals, and they need to give them a venue.  They need to find out how they feel about integration at the team level.  I think that's going to be really important.

I mean, ultimately, these young men have volunteered multiple times.  And we have a lot invested in them.  And they've got to embrace it.  I might add that sometimes we underestimate the capacity of our younger troops to embrace change, to embrace diversity, and I just want to provide them an opportunity to voice their concerns in this survey.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 20, 2013)

As much as I miss the Army, I am glad I will not have to deal with this nonsense. 

Good luck to the ladies who try and god speed to the infantrymen who end up with women in their units...


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## Johca (Jun 20, 2013)

http://www.defense.gov/news/ArmyWISRImplementationPlan.pdf

http://www.defense.gov/news/NavyWISRImplementationPlan.pdf

http://www.defense.gov/news/MarineCorpsWISRImplementationPlan.pdf

http://www.defense.gov/news/SOCOMWISRImplementationPlan.pdf

http://www.defense.gov/news/Air_ForceWISRImplementationPlan.pdf


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## Lycurgus (Jun 20, 2013)

From the Navy Report...they are called DPs for a reason as in decision points.  The studies haven't even been completed yet.  If the SEAL community right now said "no" without any actual data to back up their argument, they would be ripped to shreds.  Also from the study look at the text in bold:   

With this plan, we fully envision Navy will have no closed occupations, *very limited number of closed positions*, and equal professional opportunity for females in every officer designator and enlisted rating in the Navy by January 2016.

What do you think the "very limited number of closed positions" might be?  They have tried to put 6 female Marines through the Infantry Officer's Course and none have made it past the 2nd week of training, and these females were hand selected.  BUD/S is a whole different animal......


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## Lycurgus (Jun 20, 2013)

SOCOM doesn't even have to make a final decision until the 4th Quarter of 2016, and even then they can request an exception for SOF to remain closed.


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## DA SWO (Jun 20, 2013)

Standards will be lowered.

Why are 20 chinups required, can't 10 suffice? etc.

Every physical activity will have to be justified.

PJ/CCT (and by default SOWT) are pretty safe, but TACP may get grilled.


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## 0699 (Jun 21, 2013)

pardus said:


> While I don't agree with women in front line units per se. I will leave you all with this... Violette Szabo and this... Carve Her Name With Pride


 


SpitfireV said:


> Those SOE women were absolutely amazing.


 
True, but also a very different situation.



Lycurgus said:


> From the Navy Report...they are called DPs for a reason as in decision points.  The studies haven't even been completed yet.  *If the SEAL community right now said "no" without any actual data to back up their argument, they would be ripped to shreds*.  Also from the study look at the text in bold:


 
Very true.  In general, way too many people will happily tell you something is wrong, but can't provide data to back up their position.  If the DOD decision is yes or no, there should be facts and data provided to back up the decision.  IMO, the main question should be "Will allowing women in combat arms and SOF improve our national defense?"  Unfortunately, I believe the question being asked right now isn't one of national defense, but "Is it fair to deny women the right to be in combat arms?"  IMO, the defense of our country isn't a right, but a privlidge.



SOWT said:


> Standards will be lowered.
> 
> Why are 20 chinups required, can't 10 suffice? etc.
> 
> ...


 
This can go both ways though.  If the DOD does it correctly, and demonstrates a combat-based requirement to do 20 pullups, then it'll be much harder to refute.  But if the DOD's answer is "just because" or "it's always been that way", they'll get hosed.

I still think it vaguely funny that we're talking about women in combat, but not in the NFL or NBA.  I say, before we have women in combat, let's put women on the academy football teams...


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## Squidward (Aug 26, 2013)

There's so much to say about this issue, and I don't think I could write it all out. Here's my best summary.

In my opinion the only thing any of us have constantly asked for in this debate is exactly what has been thrown around as the entire reason for the decision in the first place, equality. There are people that are in a place to directly influence/support this agenda that do not understand what that means. Those same people do not understand the implications and consequences of a perceived equality. No matter what any of us do, this will happen. For my own sake I'm going to exercise faith and trust in my senior leaders to both do the right thing and listen to those opinions that will help them to do so. A standard of excellence and combat effectiveness has been set by both Special Operations Forces and Conventional Forces for the past 12 years. It's up to us to take every measure to ensure that tradition is not tarnished for the sake of an agenda. We all might find ourselves (some of us already have) in a knockdown, drag out gun fight with a woman at our shoulder, and I plan to do everything within my power to ensure that, regardless of sex, I know I can look that person in the eyes and know I have not failed them or myself by bringing them into that situation unprepared. I would hope that whatever person I find to my left or right the next time I find myself (or any of us for that matter) on a two-way range has the honor and professionalism to feel and act in the same manner. Excellence is not about meeting a standard: excellence is about exceeding a standard.

Squid sends.


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