# The Afghanistan and Pakistan Thread



## AWP (Sep 28, 2015)

The subject line says it all.

Let's kick things off from Kunduz.

Taliban attack Afghan city of Kunduz, free inmates - CNN.com



> (CNN)—The Afghan provincial capital of Kunduz has largely fallen into "the hand of enemies," Afghanistan's Interior Ministry spokesman Sediq Sediqqi said late Monday.



This is significant not only because of the city, but because it is an area once controlled by Rashid Dostum. Who is that? An Afghan Vice President. Dostum has a history of betrayal but I don't know if that played a role in today's assault (probably not, but this is Afghanistan).

He was America’s man in Afghanistan. Then things went sour. Now Abdurrashid Dostum may be back.

Kunduz and Dostum have some history which also provides a link to the PK/ Taliban connection...a connection reported as early as Nov. 2001 (let that date sink in for a moment. That isn't a typo).

The ‘airlift of evil’

The Getaway - The New Yorker

My generation swore there would never be another Vietnam and touted Desert Storm as evidence we vanquished those ghosts and put VN in our rearview mirror.

We spoke too soon.


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## DA SWO (Sep 28, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> The subject line says it all.
> 
> Let's kick things off from Kunduz.
> 
> ...


Nah, let's blame the generation after ours.


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## AWP (Oct 1, 2015)

Several news outlets are reporting the GIRoA has retaken Kunduz. The good news? Combat operations ended last December. Oh, wait...they didn't? But the President said they did!!!!!!

U.S. troops dispatched to Kunduz to help Afghan forces



> KABUL — American Special Operations troops and on-the-ground military advisers from the NATO coalition joined Afghan forces trying to retake the northern city of Kunduz from Taliban militants Wednesday, and some came under fire as the effort initially made few gains, officials said.



Taliban widen offensive as Nato special forces join fight for Kunduz



> Nato special forces have joined Afghan troops in the increasingly desperate battle for Kunduz, as one of the last two government outposts in the strategic northern city surrendered to the Taliban.


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## Florida173 (Oct 2, 2015)

> "Today our security forces are deployed all over Kunduz," provincial police spokesman Sayed Sarwar Hussaini told AFP.





> "We are searching the lanes of the city and residential houses looking for Taliban militants... We will target and kill them."





> Police chief Mohammad Jangalbagh said more than 300 insurgents including some Pakistanis and Chechens had so far been killed.


Afghan forces try to flush out Taliban in Kunduz


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## Brill (Oct 2, 2015)

I saw an article that questioned why bombs are falling in the two places where Obama ended wars.


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## racing_kitty (Oct 2, 2015)

lindy said:


> I saw an article that questioned why bombs are falling in the two places where Obama ended wars.



Got the link for that?  I'm hoping I'll have a little free time this weekend to read it.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 3, 2015)

This awful for so many reasons - addmittedly I do not know a lot about Doctor's Without Borders, but are they stationary and in postion to be known, or did they just happen to be somewhere they should not have been?

U.S. airstrike 'kills at least nine Doctors Without Borders staff'


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## Brill (Oct 3, 2015)

racing_kitty said:


> Got the link for that?  I'm hoping I'll have a little free time this weekend to read it.



Ouch...didn't realize it was from the intercept.

U.S. Bombs Somehow Keep Falling in the Places Where Obama “Ended Two Wars”


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## AWP (Oct 3, 2015)

lindy said:


> Ouch...didn't realize it was from the intercept.
> 
> U.S. Bombs Somehow Keep Falling in the Places Where Obama “Ended Two Wars”



Even if it came from Alex Jones or some other tinfoil worshipping troll it has merit. Obama wants to take credit for pulling out of Iraq (while ignoring the failed SOFA and Bush's work towards that end) and then ending combat operations in Afghanistan (another ridiculous notion), but every day we're dropping munitions in those countries. There are days where A-stan has more airframes over it than Iraq.


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## AWP (Oct 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> This awful for so many reasons - addmittedly I do not know a lot about Doctor's Without Borders, but are they stationary and in postion to be known, or did they just happen to be somewhere they should not have been?
> 
> U.S. airstrike 'kills at least nine Doctors Without Borders staff'



I moved your post since this deals with Afghanistan and not Iraq/ ISIS.

To try and answer your question, both Fox and CNN only say the "coordinates" were given to the "warring parties." DWB also says it told Washington about the strikes but they continued for more than 30 minutes after notification.

1. Neither story, nor DWB, state the hospital was marked. Unless I'm mistaken a hospital is supposed to be marked with a red cross and/ or crescent. It can say it gave out coordinates, but to who because giving them to Washington is the same as posting them on a random Craigslist page.
2. Communicating with Washington...please. Even IF they found the right office and the right person, just getting that info to Afghanistan would take some time. The notion that you can tell someone in the gov't and they can call anywhere and pass along that info is nonsense. If that phone call doesn't go to the right office then forget even making it to Afghanistan within 30 minutes.

Even if the coordinates were known were they transmitted to Bagram AND to the Task Force? Was the hospital clearly marked (it doesn't sound like it)? I hate to say it, but based on FOX and CNN I'd say DWB should take a small amount of the blame and the rest is "fog of war."


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 3, 2015)

I am so very sorry to learn of this. 30 minutes warning works if you are able to stop what you are doing. Surgical procedures, from the time of induction of anesthesia, to the last skin staple going on is roughly 2 hours. Some take longer, and some are shorter. When I got called in for a case, I told my wife it would be a couple of hours before I'd get back. After the warning to evacuate,  it is hard to know what to do; stay, or leave your patient. My call would have been to close up ASAP, and evacuate the patient and the team together. From what I've been able put together, it sounds like fighting in the area of the hospital has been going on for a week or so. The enemy is known to hide, and fire from anywhere, including hospitals and mosques . In hind sight, evacuation should have been considered a few days ago. May those who have lost their lives, Rest In God's Own Peace. Thoughts and prayers out to all touched by this tragic event.


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## DA SWO (Oct 3, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I moved your post since this deals with Afghanistan and not Iraq/ ISIS.
> 
> To try and answer your question, both Fox and CNN only say the "coordinates" were given to the "warring parties." DWB also says it told Washington about the strikes but they continued for more than 30 minutes after notification.
> 
> ...


Even marked, it can not be used for "Military" purposes, i.e. you can't set up a command post, AAA site or barracks for combatants in the hospital.

Doing that can cost you your protected status.

Did DWB make sure A-Q/Taliban fighters were off grounds?


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 3, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Even marked, it can not be used for "Military" purposes, i.e. you can't set up a command post, AAA site or barracks for combatants in the hospital.
> 
> Doing that can cost you your protected status.
> 
> Did DWB make sure A-Q/Taliban fighters were off grounds?



Yup! With hostilities so near, the call to evacuate/warn was way too late. The media will look for someone to blame, as they shape and spin this event. What a great opening for "investigative reporting". Just who was responsible for telling the DWB/Treatment facility, how much danger they were in? Had there been any thought given to evacuation sites? DWB walking out and telling A-Q/Taliban fighters to clear away from the hospital, probably would have been a joke, and a few rounds lead. War zones are deadly for anyone in them.


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## DA SWO (Oct 3, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Yup! With hostilities so near, the call to evacuate/warn was way too late. The media will look for someone to blame, as they shape and spin this event. What a great opening for "investigative reporting". Just who was responsible for telling the DWB/Treatment facility, how much danger they were in? Had there been any thought given to evacuation sites? DWB walking out and telling A-Q/Taliban fighters to clear away from the hospital, probably would have been a joke, and a few rounds lead. War zones are deadly for anyone in them.


DWB folks tend to be a little idealistic/clueless.

They can assume we won't hit them knowing the TB has set up in the same building.

I won't lose sleep, the fact that the "air raid" lasted another 30 min (per media) tells me they had a pretty high priority target near by.

Derka, derka.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 7, 2015)

The Generals are circling their wagons and blaming the JTAC - going so far as to publicly accuse them of negligence and not following procdure.  Commenting on this would be FAR out of my lane, but I am interested to see what qualifed folks would say about this. 

What I will say via comment is this, it is just wrong that a General would say this in public, (via B.S. ananomous sources who cannot be identifed) before a formal investigation has even happened.  Then again, maybe one of you guys will tell me why it's not bullshit to do this, but all it does for me is reenforce the idea that most Generals are no better than the rest of the politicians out there.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/07/w...l?smprod=nytcore-ipad&smid=nytcore-ipad-share NYTimes: General Is Said to Think Afghan Hospital Airstrike Broke U.S. Rules


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## x SF med (Oct 7, 2015)

Imagine that.... a General not following the basic tenets of Military leadership...  Share Credit, Accept Blame...   fucking politicians, not leaders -- all of them.


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## DA SWO (Oct 7, 2015)

x SF med said:


> Imagine that.... a General not following the basic tenets of Military leadership...  Share Credit, Accept Blame...   fucking politicians, not leaders -- all of them.


They are already talking about a UN conducted War Crimes Tribunal.
No one in their right mind is going to take the blame.  
Obama's hit squad (aka DoJ) is involved.
Hopefully it is a non US (read Afghan) JTAC.


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## Gunz (Oct 7, 2015)

Here they go

Kunduz bombing: MSF demands Afghan war crimes probe - BBC News


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## AWP (Oct 7, 2015)

MSF can eat a dick. I have yet to see any indication the site was marked as a hospital.


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## DA SWO (Oct 7, 2015)

Saw something that indicates the call for fire came from the Afghan Army, International Investigation is useless because neither the US or GOA are signatories on the treaty.

    Throwing an Afghan under the bus gives DWB a fall-guy and the guy involved just goes home to his tribe.


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## Brill (Oct 14, 2015)

Not much news play on this:

Al Qaeda hubs dismantled in one of the largest US-Afghan raids ever, officials say


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## Marauder06 (Oct 14, 2015)

“We struck a major al-Qaeda sanctuary in the center of the Taliban’s historic heartland."

Oh, so you bombed Pakistan?  Score!


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## AWP (Oct 15, 2015)

Guess the president isn't ending the war afterall. On the plus side, I mean, on the plus side we....I think it's good that...

Never mind, I've got nothin'.

Obama to make Afghanistan forces announcement Thursday - CNNPolitics.com




> Washington (CNN)—President Barack Obama will announce Thursday that U.S. forces will remain in Afghanistan at their current levels throughout much of 2016, marking yet another delay in the administration's plans for completing its withdrawal from the 14-year conflict.
> 
> The decision to maintain 9,800 troops in Afghanistan until nearly the end of Obama's time in office comes after months of discussions with Afghanistan's president, Ashraf Ghani, and the nation's CEO, Abdullah Abdullah, senior administration officials said Wednesday night. Obama also consulted with U.S. military commanders on the ground in Afghanistan as well as his entire national security team, officials added.
> 
> According to the new White House plan, the number of U.S. military personnel in Afghanistan would drop to 5,500 by early 2017, as Obama prepares to leave office. At that point, U.S. forces would be based in the Afghan capital of Kabul, as well as in military installations in Bagram, Jalalabad and Kandahar.


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## Brill (Oct 15, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Guess the president isn't ending the war afterall. On the plus side, I mean, on the plus side we....I think it's good that...
> 
> Never mind, I've got nothin'.
> 
> Obama to make Afghanistan forces announcement Thursday - CNNPolitics.com



Yes he is! He was elected via an anti-war platform AND he won the Nobel for implementing world peace. One doesn't reach that level of achievement by prolonging conflict, leading regime change in North Africa, and destabilizing an entire region (anti-ISIL efforts & Iranian nuke deal).

You're not reading the facts correctly.


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## Florida173 (Oct 15, 2015)

lindy said:


> Yes he is! He was elected via an anti-war platform AND he won the Nobel for implementing world peace. One doesn't reach that level of achievement by prolonging conflict, leading regime change in North Africa, and destabilizing an entire region (anti-ISIL efforts & Iranian nuke deal).
> 
> You're not reading the facts correctly.


 
Do you lose your Nobel Peace prize once you've bombed another recipient of the prize? You'd think there would be a rule on that...

Or maybe how you've destabilized a region to such a degree that you will likely help the take down this year's recipient with the National Dialogue Quartet in Tunisia...


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## Etype (Oct 15, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> “We struck a major al-Qaeda sanctuary in the center of the Taliban’s historic heartland."


I seem to remember Kandahar being the capital for the Taliban gov't, and Mullah Omar being from the Maiwand/Panjiway area. 

That's only a few hundred miles from Kunduz, close enough. 

I wonder if this fella really had no idea what he was talking about, or if he just thought he could BS the public with what he thought was a convincing lie.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 15, 2015)

Update on the Docs w/out Borders. 

US special ops analysts knew Afghan site was hospital; unclear if commanders knew http://www.startribune.com/politics/national/333072911.html 

I teach my managers, if there is an incident that happened within one of our stores, buy some time and promise to make a statement by a certain date.  Don't assume something, or say something to appease the person asking the question and then have to come back later in reverse yourself. The doublespeak will only hurt us in the long run. 

So you can understand that this section in particular is what has driven me crazy about our government and leaders for as long as I can remember. 

_The U.S. military's cursory description of what transpired has changed over time.

Initially, the military portrayed the incident as an accident stemming from the fog of war. American forces in the vicinity were under attack, a U.S. military spokesperson in Afghanistan said in a statement, and called in an air strike "against individuals threatening the force. The strike may have resulted in collateral damage to a nearby medical facility."

Two days later, Campbell told reporters that "Afghan forces advised that they were taking fire from enemy positions and asked for air support from U.S. forces."

He added, "An airstrike was then called to eliminate the Taliban threat and several civilians were accidentally struck."

The following day, however, Campbell told the Senate Armed Services Committee, "To be clear, the decision ... was a U.S. decision made within the U.S. chain of command. A hospital was mistakenly struck. We would never intentionally target a protected medical facility."_


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## AWP (Oct 15, 2015)

Analysts knew? Yawn....until they can prove the "kill chain" knew and did nothing this is just noise. The big item is did DWB mark the hospital? "We told people this is a hospital" isn't the best defense.

Ultimately people are online OUTRAGED which means we're wrong and the OUTRAGE is right.

I hate people.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 17, 2015)

It's pretty clear it was a marked hospital, but intel believed somebody was using it as a base...and why it was exactly targeted via air strike remains quite unclear as the first story was: IOT support US troops that were in contact, which was- A) a mistake B) an outright lie.

Also: everyone see the withdrawal is being post-poned Obama again delays Afghanistan troop drawdown - CNNPolitics.com


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## AWP (Oct 17, 2015)

ThunderHorse said:


> It's pretty clear it was a marked hospital, but intel believed somebody was using it as a base...



Marked externally or on someone's map overlay?


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 17, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Marked externally or on someone's map overlay?


That part is not clear.  So I'm going to say Map Overlay, however, the next question I have is was there an NFA established, and if there was, who lifted it, and why.  Because we can say all we want, we still look like shit as ISAF command didn't control the narrative by taking a tactical pause to find out what really happened and just spouted off.


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## AWP (Oct 17, 2015)

ThunderHorse said:


> That part is not clear.  So I'm going to say Map Overlay, however, the next question I have is was there an NFA established, and if there was, who lifted it, and why.  Because we can say all we want, we still look like shit as ISAF command didn't control the narrative by taking a tactical pause to find out what really happened and just spouted off.



I totally agree with the last part.

My main contention is that it wasn't physically marked. My understanding, perhaps dated, of the law of land warfare is that hospitals, religious shrines, etc. must be clearly marked. Otherwise someone could just say some mud hut is a hospital and make a stink over us bombing it or have an instant safe zone. I have not seen a shred of information or any photographs showing clear markings on the hospital. It was an AC-130, arguably one of the best sensor platforms around. If the hospital was clearly marked this wouldn't be a story. I'd also think if DWB had markings on the roof they would have displayed those in the press and screamed to the heavens.

DWB saying they told someone or "the right person" doesn't matter a damn bit if that info wasn't conveyed to the aircrew.

What it looks like is they notified someone and stopped there and I question if that's enough.


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## DA SWO (Oct 17, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I totally agree with the last part.
> 
> My main contention is that it wasn't physically marked. My understanding, perhaps dated, of the law of land warfare is that hospitals, religious shrines, etc. must be clearly marked. Otherwise someone could just say some mud hut is a hospital and make a stink over us bombing it or have an instant safe zone. I have not seen a shred of information or any photographs showing clear markings on the hospital. It was an AC-130, arguably one of the best sensor platforms around. If the hospital was clearly marked this wouldn't be a story. I'd also think if DWB had markings on the roof they would have displayed those in the press and screamed to the heavens.
> 
> ...



Bold face part.
Why haven't they identified the person they told?
DWB (IMO) hasn't been totally honest.


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 17, 2015)

Free, your understanding is totally correct. You can only claim "protections" under the laws and treaties governing land warfare for medical facilities or churches when they are clearly marked. At least as far as I also remember.


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## CDG (Oct 17, 2015)

If it was a known hospital, it would have been on the No-Strike List.


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## JedisonsDad (Nov 2, 2015)

It's all a bunch of bullshit. That is all I will say.


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## DA SWO (Dec 2, 2015)

I know it isn't ass-crackistan, but it doesn't deserve it's own thread.

Wonder if the Syrian AF or RSAF give a shit.

Clinic run by Doctors Without Borders bombed in Yemen

A mobile clinic run by Doctors Without Borders in Yemen was bombed Wednesday in Saudi-led airstrikes, wounding at least seven people, IBTimes UK reported.

The medical team in Taiz is collecting information about the incident and providing treatment to those who were wounded in the airstrikes, Tim Shenk, press officer for Doctors Without Borders, told IBTimes UK.

The attack is the fourth on a facility run by the non-profit -- known officially as Médecins Sans Frontières or MSF -- and comes just days after a hospital supported by MSF was bombed in Syria, causing seven deaths and leaving the building in ruins. A girl was among those killed in the Saturday attacks.

On Saturday, the Syria attack was what is known as a double-tap tactic -- a first bombing followed by a second one after health professionals have arrived to aid the victims. The tactic is the hallmark of the Syrian Air Force, according to UPI.

In October, a U.S. airstrike mistakenly killed 30 people at a Doctors Without Borders hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan. U.S. military officials announced last month that the attack was the result of military personnel inadvertently aiming at the wrong target — the hospital compound — instead of a suspected nearby site, from which Taliban fighters were firing.


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## AWP (Dec 4, 2015)

Some good news:

U.S. Special Forces Help Free Dozens of Taliban Prisoners



> Ground troops from the Afghan Special Security Forces and the U.S. Special Mission Wing conducted a helicopter assault mission in the Nawzad district of Afghanistan's Helmand Province, the U.S. military said in a news release.



I cannot wait for the airsoft/ poser element to display their "Special Mission Wing" patches.

Then some potentially great news. Maybe.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/12/05/w...aliban-leader-mullah-akhtar-mansour.html?_r=0



> The militants’ chief spokesman, Zabihullah Mujahid, dismissed reports that Mullah Mansour had been shot in a gunfight that broke out between rival insurgent factions during peace talks this week. But he also tacitly acknowledged the credibility problem faced by the group, which denied for years that its previous leader, Mullah Muhammad Omar, had died, then finally admitted it two years after the fact.


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## Marauder06 (Dec 8, 2015)

Some insight on the DWB building bombing, from an Army JAG:



> Although no system is perfect, an ill-timed failure can shake the foundations of trust in that system despite the overwhelming amount of success, fairness, and transparency. As we all know, climb a thousand mountains and you’ll be known as a mountain climber. But, if you screw one goat, you’ll be known as, well, you know …


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## AWP (Dec 8, 2015)

Looks like the TB managed to storm a portion of Kandahar Air Field, though I'm not familiar with this school.

Taliban attacks airport in southern Afghan city Kandahar



> "Several insurgents (have) taken up position inside a school and (are) firing at the airport," said Sameem Khpalwak, a spokesman for the local governor. He said there were no reports of casualties and Afghan government forces were returning fire.


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## Rapid (Dec 18, 2015)

Why Taliban special forces are fighting Islamic State - BBC News

"*Why Taliban special forces are fighting Islamic State*"

Oh brother. 



> The Afghan Taliban say they have unleashed "special forces" in an increasingly bloody battle with fighters from the rival, so-called Islamic State (IS) group. The Taliban's dominance and monopoly on insurgency in a region home to numerous local and foreign militant groups is being challenged by IS, which has been gaining some support. Who's winning the war of the militants?
> 
> *How many Taliban special forces are fighting Islamic State?*
> 
> According to Taliban sources, the special task force, part of the Taliban's special forces command, was set up in early October and has more than 1,000 fighters - better equipped and trained than regular Taliban and with the sole aim of crushing IS.


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## x SF med (Dec 18, 2015)

Inter-tribal warfare is de rigueur for the region/culture discussed.... loyalty follows, in order except for the first two which really flip flop - family/Allah/village/tribe/ region/and possibly country...   and the tribal affiliations are as fluid as an ocean in a storm...   In the eyes of the tribal leaders, Afghanistan won't fall, tribal affiliations will change, and as long as they are allowed to follow their brand of Islam (the high country tribes still have a fairly animistic version of Islam, a melding of pre Islamic rituals with the koranic version of islam) and their tribe, village, and family are fed and sheltered - the larger government can go fuck itself, unless their is an appearance of a strong leader who rules by intimidation - and threatens the existence of that tribe or lower affiliations.   But, we cannot educate our western society in the vagaries of tribal thought and control...  that is going to be the downfall of any campaign - Lawrence said it, Kipling said it, Gandhi said it, and anybody looking at the region, it's history, and the 'religion' of islam and its history would be able to see the ability of islam to keep its adherents in the 12th C. CE... 

my very brief .02 on this...


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## AWP (Jan 17, 2016)

A pretty good article on Marjah and how it really applies to the rest of the country.

A look at how the US-led coalition lost Afghanistan's Marjah district to the Taliban

There are too many great points to post here, but the short version is this is the same stuff we've said here since the inception of this board.


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## Brill (Jan 17, 2016)

Why are you spreading hate speech?

"For more than 13 years, ever since nearly 3,000 innocent lives were taken from us on 9/11, our nation has been at war in Afghanistan," Obama said in a written statement. "Now, thanks to the extraordinary sacrifices of our men and women in uniform, our combat mission in Afghanistan is ending, and the longest war in American history is coming to a responsible conclusion."

Also from Obama's statement:

" ... Our courageous military and diplomatic personnel in Afghanistan -- along with our NATO allies and coalition partners -- have helped the Afghan people reclaim their communities, take the lead for their own security, hold historic elections and complete the first democratic transfer of power in their country's history.


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## AWP (Jan 17, 2016)

lindy said:


> Why are you spreading hate speech?
> 
> "For more than 13 years, ever since nearly 3,000 innocent lives were taken from us on 9/11, our nation has been at war in Afghanistan," Obama said in a written statement. "Now, thanks to the extraordinary sacrifices of our men and women in uniform, our combat mission in Afghanistan is ending, and the longest war in American history is coming to a responsible conclusion."
> 
> ...



I guess I'm just that kind of guy.

Also, the president is full of shit. You can spin a turd but that doesn't make it cotton candy.


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## CDG (Jan 22, 2016)

CDG said:


> If it was a known hospital, it would have been on the No-Strike List.



Well, it was known, and it was on the NSL.  Epic fail by both air and ground parties involved. 

Exclusive: U.S. Military Readies Punishments for Botched Afghan Airstrike


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## pardus (Jan 22, 2016)

CDG said:


> Well, it was known, and it was on the NSL.  Epic fail by both air and ground parties involved.
> 
> Exclusive: U.S. Military Readies Punishments for Botched Afghan Airstrike



Unforgivable mistake.


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## CDG (Jan 23, 2016)

pardus said:


> Unforgivable mistake.



Indeed it is.  A lot of checks and balances were either forgotten or ignored for this to happen.


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## Tyrant (Jan 24, 2016)

In regards to the AC-130 strike on the MSF hospital in Kunduz, has anyone heard if LTC Johnston will be reprimanded? I understand he is under investigation. He is an excellent officer and I hope this doesn't ruin him.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 24, 2016)

Tyrant said:


> In regards to the AC-130 strike on the MSF hospital in Kunduz, has anyone heard if LTC Johnston will be reprimanded? I understand he is under investigation. He is an excellent officer and I hope this doesn't ruin him.



He is mentioned specifically in the most recent update posted by @CDG (about 3 posts up). Here is his excerpt:

_Also likely in the crosshairs of investigators is Army Lt. Col. Jason Johnston, the commander of the military’s special operations task force in Afghanistan. Given the strict rules of engagement in Afghanistan, it’s likely that his superior, Army Maj. Gen. Sean Swindell, who oversees all U.S. and NATO special operations forces in the country, and Air Force Maj. Gen. Scott West, the overall commander of the air war in Afghanistan, are also likely to have drawn the attention of the investigators._


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## Tyrant (Jan 24, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> He is mentioned specifically in the most recent update posted by @CDG (about 3 posts up). Here is his excerpt:
> 
> _Also likely in the crosshairs of investigators is Army Lt. Col. Jason Johnston, the commander of the military’s special operations task force in Afghanistan. Given the strict rules of engagement in Afghanistan, it’s likely that his superior, Army Maj. Gen. Sean Swindell, who oversees all U.S. and NATO special operations forces in the country, and Air Force Maj. Gen. Scott West, the overall commander of the air war in Afghanistan, are also likely to have drawn the attention of the investigators._


I read that also. I was wondering if anyone has heard anything other than what was mentioned in the article. Thanks Ooh-Rah.


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## JedisonsDad (Jan 24, 2016)

CDG said:


> Well, it was known, and it was on the NSL.  Epic fail by both air and ground parties involved.
> 
> Exclusive: U.S. Military Readies Punishments for Botched Afghan Airstrike



Negative, sir. It was not an epic fail by the air and ground parties, because no Americans died that day. It was an epic fail on leadership's part (not immediate leadership, but much higher). There is far more to the story than anyone will ever know, other than the ones directly involved.


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## CDG (Jan 24, 2016)

JedisonsDad said:


> Negative, sir. It was not an epic fail by the air and ground parties, because no Americans died that day. It was an epic fail on leadership's part (not immediate leadership, but much higher). There is far more to the story than anyone will ever know, other than the ones directly involved.



Bullshit dude.  Leadership failed, yes.  But they're not the only ones on the hook.  You don't target without being sure of what you're hitting, and you take extra precaution when you're targeting a building you can't even see, and you take even more precaution when the target grids aren't lining up.  You've played the insider knowledge card on this site before and you were out of your league.  Don't make the same mistake twice.


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## JedisonsDad (Jan 24, 2016)

CDG said:


> Bullshit dude.  Leadership failed, yes.  But they're not the only ones on the hook.  You don't target without being sure of what you're hitting, and you take extra precaution when you're targeting a building you can't even see, and you take even more precaution when the target grids aren't lining up.  You've played the insider knowledge card on this site before and you were out of your league.  Don't make the same mistake twice.




For a website that boasts about its professionalism and staying in your lane, there sure are a lot of people that avoid both. For the sake of those involved, I'm not going into anymore detail.


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## CDG (Jan 24, 2016)

JedisonsDad said:


> For a website that boasts about its professionalism and staying in your lane, there sure are a lot of people that avoid both. For the sake of those involved, I'm not going into anymore detail.



Tell me more about air to ground engagements being out of my lane.

Classic technique.  "Yeah, I know things.  Can't/won't talk about them.  I know shit though.  Wink wink."  Unless what you "know" is that the news is completely fabricating the story and the guys could actually see the hospital, and the grids actually did match up, then there's blame at all levels.  Leadership didn't call in the strike and didn't fire the rounds on a grid that didn't match the original target grid.


----------



## JedisonsDad (Jan 24, 2016)

CDG said:


> Tell me more about air to ground engagements being out of my lane.
> 
> Classic technique.  "Yeah, I know things.  Can't/won't talk about them.  I know shit though.  Wink wink."  Unless what you "know" is that the news is completely fabricating the story and the guys could actually see the hospital, and the grids actually did match up, then there's blame at all levels.  Leadership didn't call in the strike and didn't fire the rounds on a grid that didn't match the original target grid.



I was overhead Kunduz. I'm not saying that air to ground engagements are out of your lane. I'm saying that you weren't on the plane that night. You don't know what the crew saw. You don't know what NSL was passed to them. By all ROEs, it was a textbook shoot.


----------



## AWP (Jan 24, 2016)

As a staff member on this board and guy on the outer fringe of this thanks to my job, I have a feeling that clarifying posts and positions is probably a matter for gubment networks, not this one. To provide an additional POV we were briefed the JTAC made some bad decisions, but there are also lingering questions about the strike cell's performance.

Unless someone's willing to cough up details, which are probably classified at this point, let's allow this discussion to drift into an uneasy peace.


----------



## AWP (Jan 28, 2016)

Maybe we should retitle this "The Propping Up of Afghanistan Thread."

P.S. remember how combat operations are over? Yeah...

The US was supposed to leave Afghanistan by 2017. Now it might take decades.



> In November, the U.S. military sent a company of elite U.S. Rangers to southeastern Afghanistan to help Afghan counter-terrorism forces destroy an al-Qaida training camp in a "fierce fight" that lasted for several days.


----------



## pardus (Jan 28, 2016)

Maybe I'll get another deployment after all!


----------



## AWP (Jan 28, 2016)

pardus said:


> Maybe I'll get another deployment after all!



If I go back to that country it is to kill people. I will not Fobbit in Afghanistan.


----------



## Brill (Jan 28, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Maybe we should retitle this "The Propping Up of Afghanistan Thread."
> 
> P.S. remember how combat operations are over? Yeah...
> 
> The US was supposed to leave Afghanistan by 2017. Now it might take decades.



Wait a second.  His highness said he would end the war in Afghanistan.


----------



## CDG (Jan 28, 2016)

lindy said:


> Wait a second.  His highness said he would end the war in Afghanistan.



Yeah, but that was before he had to actually deal with the situation and not just spout rhetoric about it. A common problem among politicians of all flavors that they can rarely put into action what they so vociferously advocate for.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 29, 2016)

pardus said:


> Maybe I'll get another deployment after all!


Lots of people here are sweating that.  I just remember October 2001, being stuck OCONUS and thinking, "Damn, the war is going to be over before I get in the fight!" 15 years and seven deployments later...


----------



## Tyrant (Jan 29, 2016)

I pray they send me back. I have to check on my timeshares.


----------



## CDG (Jan 29, 2016)

I'm itching to get a 1st deployment as a JTAC.  Fingers crossed.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 29, 2016)

CDG said:


> I'm itching to get a 1st deployment as a JTAC.  Fingers crossed.



Best of success to you on that!


----------



## Devildoc (Jan 29, 2016)

Remember, Obama likes it when there are no boots on the ground.  Advisers, technicians, instructors, planners, organizers, medical personnel, military police, SOF, sure.....but no boots on the ground.


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 29, 2016)

CDG said:


> I'm itching to get a 1st deployment as a JTAC.  Fingers crossed.


Good luck.

It's coming, sooner rather than later.


----------



## Brill (Jan 29, 2016)

CDG said:


> I'm itching to get a 1st deployment as a JTAC.  Fingers crossed.



Iraq is better...more assests to work with. Is the AF still in AF?


----------



## CDG (Jan 29, 2016)

lindy said:


> Iraq is better...more assests to work with. Is the AF still in AF?



The AF is everywhere. And nowhere. There is no spoon.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jan 29, 2016)

lindy said:


> Wait a second.  His highness said he would end the war in Afghanistan.



His major concerns start with what to have for breakfast, then on to the golf course. So he misss a few meetings, after all who really cares? He ends has concerns with how diner was, then a basketball game on the tube with a classified number of beers before bed.


----------



## Brill (Jan 29, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> His major concerns start with what to have for breakfast, then on to the golf course. So he misss a few meetings, after all who really cares? He ends has concerns with how diner was, then a basketball game on the tube with a classified number of beers before bed.



Don't forget the $2 mil family weekend...at taxpayer expense mind you.


----------



## AWP (Feb 21, 2016)

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/21/w...retreat-under-pressure-from-taliban.html?_r=0



> LASHKAR GAH, Afghanistan — The last of the Afghan forces have pulled out of the strategic district of Musa Qala in southern Helmand Province, officials said on Saturday, months after the Taliban overran most of the district and kept them holed up in desert outposts.
> 
> The retreat, which had many politicians here mystified, was the latest blow to a province that had been teetering for months. Now, the resurgent Taliban insurgents either control or are contesting 10 of its 14 districts, extending the fighting to Babaji, a suburb so close to the provincial capital that residents of the city could hear the clashes at night.



"Mystified?" Your army sucks, the Taliban's kicked your ass at every available opportunity, and if the US pulled out entirely your country wouldn't last a year. Mystified? Stop fucking little boys, robbing the country, planning your retirement to Qatar, and wake up....your country is a toxic waste dump on fire. I'd rather live in Westeros than Afghanistan. hrod22@clintonemail.com is more secure than your toilet of a country.


----------



## Brill (Feb 21, 2016)

What a colossal waste of American lives. Our servicemen did what was asked but politicians lost he war. Yet another example of why military service should be a REQUIREMENT for POTUS.


----------



## AWP (Feb 21, 2016)

lindy said:


> What a colossal waste of American lives. Our servicemen did what was asked but politicians lost he war.



Leadership in uniform and out. Most field grades/ GO's did as much damage as the Taliban. Some of that was probably driven by poor civilian leadership, but commanders shit the bed regardless. Past the company level the wheels fell off.


----------



## pardus (Feb 22, 2016)

The first 15mins of this... Enjoy...


----------



## Gunz (Feb 22, 2016)

pardus said:


> The first 15mins of this... Enjoy...




Sometimes you have to turn Mother's picture to the wall and GTFO. And sometimes you need to stay and finish the job.


----------



## CDG (Mar 5, 2016)




----------



## Salt USMC (Mar 15, 2016)

Afghanistan may be collapsing, but the ANA is about to drop the hottest track of 2016


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 15, 2016)

I kept looking for " A Mat Best production" credited somewhere within the video.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 15, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Afghanistan may be collapsing, but the ANA is about to drop the hottest track of 2016




I wonder if they will be so "gangsta soldier" when the Tali is standing over them with their butcher blades. I don't think I would be putting video on YouTube like this, especially knowing the "American's" like to leave countries and their soldier high and dry since Vietnam.


----------



## pardus (Mar 15, 2016)

I want someone to marry that song up with the footage of the ANA doing the side straddle hop. 



Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I wonder if they will be so "gangsta soldier" when the Tali is standing over them with their butcher blades. I don't think I would be putting video on YouTube like this, *especially knowing the "American's" like to leave countries and their soldier high and dry since Vietnam*.



It's a sad truth. It kind of amazes me that people join with us at all. The Kurds are feeling that pain now with us encouraging them on one hand and allowing Turkey to fuck them up on the other, it's like some sick psychological game.


----------



## Gunz (Mar 15, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Afghanistan may be collapsing, but the ANA is about to drop the hottest track of 2016



Looks like I picked the wrong day to quit sniffing glue...


----------



## AWP (Mar 18, 2016)

According to the AP more than a dozen service members will be reprimanded for the DWB strike in Kunduz.

More than 12 punished for mistaken Afghan hospital attack



> The punishments, which have not been publicly announced, are largely administrative. But in some cases the actions, such as letters of reprimand, are tough enough to effectively end chances for further promotion. The military has previously said some personnel were suspended from their duties but has given no further details.
> 
> The disciplined include both officers and enlisted personnel, but officials said none are generals.
> 
> The officials, who were not authorized to discuss the outcomes publicly and so spoke on condition of anonymity, said the disciplinary process is nearly complete. It is derived from a military investigation of the Oct. 3, 2015, attack, the results of which are expected to be made public in a partially redacted form in coming days.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Mar 19, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> According to the AP more than a dozen service members will be reprimanded for the DWB strike in Kunduz.
> 
> More than 12 punished for mistaken Afghan hospital attack



I can't read this ^^^ without thinking about Bengazi.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 20, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Afghanistan may be collapsing, but the ANA is about to drop the hottest track of 2016



Haqqani Network has them beat, tactically and creatively.  :)


----------



## AWP (Mar 20, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Haqqani Network has them beat, tactically and creatively.  :)


Thanks to the power and money of the Pakistani government.


----------



## Brill (Mar 20, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Thanks to the power and money of the Pakistani government.



Where does Paki (ironic name for a Pashtun state) get their money from?


----------



## AWP (Mar 20, 2016)

lindy said:


> Where does Paki (ironic name for a Pashtun state) get their money from?



Since 9/11 the US has allocated about 25 billion for that miserable toilet with actual expenditures over 19 billion (they were at that number as of 2012 or 2013).

As you know, there were few Coalition casualties that couldn't be traced directly or indirectly to the PK government's funding/ support/ training of the Taliban, Haqqanis, and whoever else they've aided. I would throw a party if that entire country were ever incinerated.

I don't even hate Nickelback as much as I hate Pakistan and we did it to ourselves.


----------



## Marine0311 (Mar 20, 2016)

What are we dying for in Afghan for?


----------



## AWP (Apr 7, 2016)

You know you have problems when the UN says "For 2016, survival will be an achievement for the National Unity Government."

https://unama.unmissions.org/sites/..._srsg_briefing_security_council_english_0.pdf


----------



## ZmanTX (Apr 7, 2016)

Clown shoes!!!!!!!!! So much money thrown away. 

Report details millions in cost overruns for anti-drug aircraft in Afghanistan - CNNPolitics.com


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 7, 2016)

ZmanTX said:


> Clown shoes!!!!!!!!! So much money thrown away.
> 
> Report details millions in cost overruns for anti-drug aircraft in Afghanistan - CNNPolitics.com


Guess modifying C-27J's would have made sense?


----------



## Brill (Apr 8, 2016)

ZmanTX said:


> Clown shoes!!!!!!!!! So much money thrown away.
> 
> Report details millions in cost overruns for anti-drug aircraft in Afghanistan - CNNPolitics.com



Who was held accountable for the cost overruns and waste?


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 8, 2016)

lindy said:


> Who was held accountable for the cost overruns and waste?


Taxpayers


----------



## ZmanTX (Apr 8, 2016)

@lindy
According to the IG report the blame is on DEA, it doesn't mention who specifically was in charge of the program other than that it got approved by a top official within DEA. Either way the people that get screwed are American tax payers.



Page 35 is the conclusion.
Conclusion

"We believe that the more than $86 million spent on the purchase and modification of the DEA’s ATR 500 aircraft with advanced surveillance capabilities to support the DEA’s counternarcotics mission in Afghanistan has been an ineffective and wasteful use of government resources. As one of the two key stakeholders in the Global Discovery program, the DEA failed to properly oversee and protect its interests and those of the American taxpayer, and to ensure the program met established timelines, goals and objectives, and anticipated costs."

Request Rejected
The link won't work for the OIG report but it's connected to the CNN link I put up.


----------



## AWP (Apr 8, 2016)

I never thought I could say this about $86 million, but given the waste in Afghanistan that's like complaining about an unpaid parking ticket. That war is NOTHING but one bloody (in the literal, not English sense) case of fraud, waste, and abuse. This board has known and screamed about it for years now so this is just one more bullet statement on a lengthy Powerpoint so to speak.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 9, 2016)

Terrorists killing terrorists = good.  But the fact they can be in open war with each other in a country we've been trying to stabilize for 15 years... not good.




> ISIS and the Taliban, two of the US’s most intractable foes, fighting against each other on the ground in Afghanistan:  it’s enough to make veterans all over the world raise a glass of beer and a bag of pork rinds in celebration.
> 
> I’m  not one of them.


----------



## AWP (Apr 9, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Terrorists killing terrorists = good.  But the fact they can be in open war with each other in a country we've been trying to stabilize for 15 years... not good.



It speaks volumes about our success there yet careers were built upon that...success.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 30, 2016)

Update -

I'm very interested to read from those of you more closely looped in, whether you think the outcome was appropriate?

16 Blamed for Mistakes in Deadly US Attack on Afghan Clinic

While I am glad that no Americans are going to jail, being prosecuted, or even being officially fired, it frustrates me to no end the inconsistency to which our military handles these international situations.  A Marine pisses on a dead Taliban and he gets courtmartialed, meanwhile "something" happens to cause the death of 42 people in a hospital, and the 16 involved get the equivalent of an NJP.

Obviously I am not wishing worse on the 16 involved, but fuck.  My perception is that the more social media attention a story gets actually has a factor in how the military will treat something.  I genuinely believe that had there been video from the hospital of it being hit, and then the immediate aftermath, the outcome for those involved would had been different.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 30, 2016)

16 people is a lot.  DoD is clearly sending a message with this.

"trial should be in Afghanistan, in our presence, in the presence of the victims' families, so they would be satisfied."  lol... yeah, no.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 30, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> 16 people is a lot. DoD is clearly sending a message with this.



And what message would that be?  <No sarcasm intended >


----------



## AWP (Apr 30, 2016)

You have to wonder how many requests for CAS will be scrutinized and rejected because of this case.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 30, 2016)

Someone had to go down for this, not just for political reasons but because it was a screwup militarily as well.  

Not only did the blow the shit out of a hospital, they blew the shit out of the wrong building.  I would have expected a handful of people, a half-dozen or so tops, to go down for this.  With that many people absorbing the blame for this, there must have been a lot of stuff behind the scenes that was more screwed up than most of us know.


----------



## Florida173 (Apr 30, 2016)

I wouldn't feel comfortable having an opinion on a strike I wasn't involved with, especially knowing the amount of scrutiny that goes into every dynamic and deliberate strike we do there now.

Ultimately how many people are responsible legally for a bad military decision? The answer should be one. 

I don't care for the people that died and would automatically pick one of our people over any given number you could throw at me of theirs.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Apr 30, 2016)

Mistakes happen, to call for heads in this type of scenario shows how forgetful these Afghani's are.  They would be dead, or prisoners, if we were not there to help them.  They forget so fast!

When a bad strike happens, One person should be held accountable, not 16.  This is the new age of punishment to make a point, not to fit the crime!

CAS in AFG has always been an issue, because noone wanted to put their name on a MISTAKE!!!!!  The one alibi to this was TIC's then its game on.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 30, 2016)

There shouldn't be one scapegoat for a situation like this.  There were likely multiple screwups by multiple people, thus justifying multiple punishments.


----------



## pardus (Apr 30, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I never thought I could say this about $86 million, but given the waste in Afghanistan that's like complaining about an unpaid parking ticket. That war is NOTHING but one bloody (in the literal, not English sense) case of fraud, waste, and abuse. This board has known and screamed about it for years now so this is just one more bullet statement on a lengthy Powerpoint so to speak.



Yup. I'd rather see $86,000,000 wasted routinely, than have us pay it to Pakistan or the Taliban/Haqqanis etc... Like we have been, routinely.


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 30, 2016)

My guess is CAS in support of the ANA will be delayed from now on.


----------



## AWP (Apr 30, 2016)

pardus said:


> Yup. I'd rather see $86,000,000 wasted routinely, than have us pay it to Pakistan or the Taliban/Haqqanis etc... Like we have been, routinely.



Those Chicom 107's won't pay for themselves!


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 30, 2016)

almost forgot, from War is Boring:

The Coming Collapse of Afghanistan — War Is Boring


----------



## Florida173 (May 1, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> There shouldn't be one scapegoat for a situation like this.  There were likely multiple screwups by multiple people, thus justifying multiple punishments.



It's not about identifying a scapegoat. Responsibility is at the lowest level officer given the power to say yes to the strike. If there was no failure in the process, then there would be no reason to look for a scapegoat. It would be justified and an unfortunate collateral incident. JAG is involved in every action over there.


----------



## Marauder06 (May 1, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> It's not about identifying a scapegoat. Responsibility is at the lowest level officer given the power to say yes to the strike. If there was no failure in the process, then there would be no reason to look for a scapegoat. It would be justified and an unfortunate collateral incident. JAG is involved in every action over there.



What you've just described is pretty much the definition of scapegoating.  There were multiple failures here, at multiple levels; the person authorizing the strike may have made a legit call based on the (erroneous) information available at the time. This is why we do investigations in the first place, instead of just assigning blame to the first available officer.


----------



## CDG (May 2, 2016)

Update: Pilots, crew of AC-130 gunship acknowledged confusion before striking Kunduz hospital


----------



## BloodStripe (May 9, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I never thought I could say this about $86 million, but given the waste in Afghanistan that's like complaining about an unpaid parking ticket. That war is NOTHING but one bloody (in the literal, not English sense) case of fraud, waste, and abuse. This board has known and screamed about it for years now so this is just one more bullet statement on a lengthy Powerpoint so to speak.


----------



## AWP (May 21, 2016)

Potentially another half a billion in aid for PK....but this time with a catch.

House ties Pakistani aid to freedom for hero doctor who helped get Bin Laden | Fox News



> The House of Representatives passed a defense budget that would make $450 million in aid to Pakistan contingent on the nation doing more to stop a militant terror network and calls for the freeing of an imprisoned doctor who helped the CIA find Usama bin Laden.



And then in a "God damn you, Fox" moment with a shout out to my brother @Marauder06 



> The Haqqani Network, which is regarded as *a criminal gang that dabbles in terrorism*, operates around the lawless border of Afghanistan and Pakistan.



Fuck you, Fox News, you and whoever fed you that line of shyte. All of you. "Join us next week for 'The Sinaloa Cartel, a social club that dabbles in drug trafficking' only on Fox."


----------



## Marauder06 (May 21, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Potentially another half a billion in aid for PK....but this time with a catch.
> 
> House ties Pakistani aid to freedom for hero doctor who helped get Bin Laden | Fox News
> 
> ...



lol, I just read that this morning and came to SS this morning specifically to ask you what you thought about it.  "Hey @Freefalling, good thing the Haqqanis are "dabbling," we'd be in some shit if they got serious!"

The Haqqanis "dabble in terrorism" like Delta Force "dabbles in fighting crime."  They are both tier-one, state-supported, highly capable groups.  Anyone who paid any attention at all over the last 10+ years, or did the slightest bit of research, would know that.  Hell even the State Department knows the HQN is a legit terrorist group.

"Fox News:  Now "Dabbling" in Journalism."  Hm, I might have found my next article headline...


----------



## AWP (May 21, 2016)

I watched Macho Man videos this morning from the 80's.....still more credible than that article from Fox. "Dabbles in terrorism".... Unreal.


----------



## Etype (May 22, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I watched Macho Man videos this morning from the 80's.....still more credible than that article from Fox. "Dabbles in terrorism".... Unreal.


When I was an uninformed private in the 82nd, I loved Fox.

Now that I know a thing or two about the world, I realize that all they do is parrot right wing speculation and spin stories to the opposite side of the other guys.

It was painfully obvious how the majority of the network took the Republican Party line and spoke out against 'Trump- instead of just reporting.

Fair and balanced... my ass.

More like, "Equally uniformed, yet Republican friendly."


----------



## Etype (May 22, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @Etype - 100% in alignment with you regarding FOX.  Truthfully my recent outlook on politics/religion/policy/etc has been shaped more from conversations on this board than anything else.
> 
> I have not watched either network in years, is CNN as overtly 'left' and FOX is 'right'?  That is what 'everyone' says - just curious what the consensus here is.


Yes.


----------



## Florida173 (May 22, 2016)

Etype said:


> When I was an uninformed private in the 82nd, I loved Fox.
> 
> Now that I know a thing or two about the world, I realize that all they do is parrot right wing speculation and spin stories to the opposite side of the other guys.
> 
> ...



I watch it on mute occasionally. No other network has that draw


----------



## AWP (May 22, 2016)

I read Fox, CNN, sometimes MSNBC, Fark, and whatever else pops into my head at that moment. Fox and CNN will report the same story from different angles and are easy enough to cross check via The Google. Now you can start breaking out their respective bias regarding the story, see a few items on one site that isn't on the other, and piece together your own opinion or keep researching....

....and no one should have to become a junior intel analyst just to stay informed about the world.

Vermin.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 22, 2016)

I like referencing what these clowns are saying with how they are saying it. Like basically saying nothing has really happened new, but saying it such a way that it's instigating an emotional reaction. When you start watching news like that, shit gets pretty damn entertaining.


----------



## Etype (May 22, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> ....and no one should have to become a junior intel analyst just to stay informed about the world.


Nailed it.


----------



## AWP (Jun 9, 2016)

Surprise, surprise, surprise.... I'm sure the TB's rejection of the peace process had nothing to do with this discussion...

US moving to expand strikes in Afghanistan against Taliban, official says | Fox News



> The official said a final decision has not been made. But there is a broad desire across the Obama administration to give the military greater ability to help the Afghans fight and win the war. The U.S. is likely to expand the authority of U.S. commanders to strike the Taliban and do whatever else is necessary with the forces they have to support the Afghan operations.
> 
> The discussions, which are in their final stages, come as *the Afghans struggle with a resurgent Taliban*, particularly in the south.



The only time this war isn't funny is when we lose someone. Otherwise this has become one of the grimmest jokes in recent history. Pure garbage.


----------



## Brill (Jun 10, 2016)

It has nothing to do with peace but rather a legacy, a library, and a lady.


----------



## AWP (Jun 10, 2016)

Annnnnd approved.

Obama approves larger role for US forces in Afghanistan | Fox News



> There is a broad desire across the Obama administration to give the military greater ability to help the Afghans fight and win the war.
> 
> The 9,800 U.S. troops still in Afghanistan, however, would still not be involved in direct combat.



Wait, I thought it was over and we were leaving? Oh well, can't win them all. At least we won't see our guys involved in combat...minus those pesky pilots.



> As an example, U.S. troops are able to partner with Afghan special operations forces, but *this new decision would allow commanders to have U.S. troops work more closely with conventional Afghan units in critical battles, including providing close air support or helping to call in strikes.* Officials stressed that this will not allow routine U.S. airstrikes against the Taliban, just provide authority to take those actions when commanders believe they are vital to the fight.



Um, which one is it? No combat, no direct combat, or "work more closely?" Smells like garbage.



> Also under discussion is whether the U.S. should reduce the number of American troops in Afghanistan to 5,500 as planned by the end of this year, or if a higher number is needed. Campbell favored keeping the troop level at the current total of 9,800 into next year.



Book it, done. Just like the anti-ISIL/ ISIS/ Daesh fight this can too will be kicked down the road. Good luck, Hillary! Take out that trash. All of you Viper pilots out there, enjoy your deployments to Bagram.


----------



## Etype (Jun 11, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Annnnnd approved.
> 
> Obama approves larger role for US forces in Afghanistan | Fox News
> 
> ...


All this hypocrisy and dancing around is what you get when you have lawyers and liberal arts majors running the show. Nothing is absolute, and words don't mean what you think they do, questions are answered with question and the answer is never found; if you think you know the answer, it's just because you're not as smart as they are.




Check out my adept semicolon usage in the tirade above.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jun 11, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I read Fox, CNN, sometimes MSNBC, Fark, and whatever else pops into my head at that moment. Fox and CNN will report the same story from different angles and are easy enough to cross check via The Google. Now you can start breaking out their respective bias regarding the story, see a few items on one site that isn't on the other, and piece together your own opinion or keep researching....
> 
> ....and no one should have to become a junior intel analyst just to stay informed about the world.
> 
> Vermin.



If real journalism suddenly infected the major media players, the world would be in much better order. I believe nothing  outside of local and area news. 

Some of the local area reporters do get moved up from time to time. If that happened to a local reporter that you had learned to trust, would you believe said reporter if working for .....oh say CNN, or Fox?


----------



## AWP (Jun 11, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Some of the local area reporters do get moved up from time to time. If that happened to a local reporter that you had learned to trust, would you believe said reporter if working for .....oh say CNN, or Fox?



None of them. Even if a journalist has integrity their editor doesn't. If the editor has integrity the owner or editorial staff do not. Years ago I dated a print journalist who covered business in our city. She would submit an article and then read it the next day in the paper....often they weren't the same. The editors knew to bury or omit information that would reflect poorly on local businesses and their stock prices. She said even local "cat in a tree" type stories would be revised or deleted if the topic or personnel involved had issues. "Car wreck injures two, police seeking suspect" would disappear if the driver had connections.

I don't trust the media at a local level. I sure as hell don't trust it at the national or international level. 

She later told me if she had it to do over again she wouldn't have become a journalist. The last I heard from her she moved to NC and taught journalism before moving to NJ and becoming a corporate PR shill. She is/ was a good woman with conviction, but controlling information is a very big deal. I have a feeling she said "screw it" and went with the money once she accepted that the game's corrupt.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jun 11, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> None of them. Even if a journalist has integrity their editor doesn't. If the editor has integrity the owner or editorial staff do not. Years ago I dated a print journalist who covered business in our city. She would submit an article and then read it the next day in the paper....often they weren't the same. The editors knew to bury or omit information that would reflect poorly on local businesses and their stock prices. She said even local "cat in a tree" type stories would be revised or deleted if the topic or personnel involved had issues. "Car wreck injures two, police seeking suspect" would disappear if the driver had connections.
> 
> I don't trust the media at a local level. I sure as hell don't trust it at the national or international level.
> 
> She later told me if she had it to do over again she wouldn't have become a journalist. The last I heard from her she moved to NC and taught journalism before moving to NJ and becoming a corporate PR shill. She is/ was a good woman with conviction, but controlling information is a very big deal. I have a feeling she said "screw it" and went with the money once she accepted that the game's corrupt.



It really is a shame to see journalism go down the road that it has. Like everything else, money and politics hold sway now. We as a Nation have fallen very far, and I don't think anyone cares at all.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Jun 11, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Annnnnd approved.
> 
> Obama approves larger role for US forces in Afghanistan | Fox News
> 
> ...



Remember...someone has to be on the ground....


----------



## AWP (Jun 11, 2016)

Meanwhile, in P2K...


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Jun 11, 2016)

Jeaze....that looks like the Quigley down under Rifle.....


----------



## racing_kitty (Jun 12, 2016)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Jeaze....that looks like the Quigley down under Rifle.....


You're fired. Just sign out your bar tab right here... Lol


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Jun 12, 2016)

HAHA!!!  I have to remortgage my house to pay off my bar bill....:-"


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Jun 13, 2016)

Wait a sec... Is that Tatooine?


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 13, 2016)

Negative.  That's clearly the foothills of the Hindu Kush, surrounding Bagram Airfield.  I remember it well... Freefalling took that picture just before he blasted the HQN operative shown.


----------



## AWP (Jun 13, 2016)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Wait a sec... Is that Tatooine?



Star Wars was on TV the other night. There was a scene of a Tuskan Raider on overwatch as Luke's speeder cruised through a valley below. Take that scene and replace the TR with the Taliban and the speeder with an M-ATV and you have Afghanistan.....and it isn't like anyone ever called the locals "Jawas" or anything. :-"

AF is another planet and our droids don't carry holograms.


----------



## AWP (Jun 18, 2016)

HAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! "Breaking point" as if that hasn't been the case for years.

Afghan-Pakistani border tensions prompt envoy's resignation threat - CNN.com



> Kabul, Afghanistan (CNN)Afghanistan's ambassador to Pakistan appears to have threatened to resign if relations are not improved between the two neighbors.
> 
> "I don't see any reason for me to continue my current job" unless Pakistan suspended its construction of new installations at the busiest border crossing between the two countries, Dr. Omar Zakhilwal said.



When will AF wake up and stop being PK's bitch?



> The Afghan government has long accused Pakistan of providing safe haven to Taliban militants. The Taliban has been fighting a 14-year insurgency against the Western-backed government in Pakistan.
> Pakistan argues that it too suffers from violent attacks by Taliban fighters.



Why won't some media outlet report on the fact, and this is open source for YEARS now, that PK helped create the Taliban?!?!?!?! Does anyone think for a second the TB would rise to power in AF without the PK govt's help? The ISI trained and funded the Taliban and we even rolled up uniformed PK officers in 2001, allowing them and their TB buddies to leave in the Kunduz airlift. Where do they think the TTP came from, thin air? 

Idiots.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 20, 2016)

The article is from today's Wall Street Journal   - just reading it had my head pounding with frustration - cannot imagine what the guys living this must be feeling...

LINK TO WSJ ARTICLE

The whole article is 11 pages; since not everyone has access to WSJ I converted it to PDF and attached it below.

*Afghan War Rules Leave U.S. Troops Wondering When It’s OK to Shoot*

U.S. is no longer at war with Taliban, so Special Forces remaining in Afghanistan have to weigh every situation to decide whether striking them is justified

_KANDAHAR, Afghanistan—U.S. spy drones had no trouble spotting the Taliban fighters. There were more than 20 figures snaking through sparsely wooded hills, trying to outflank the Afghan government commandos in the village below.

In the starry darkness overhead, American helicopters loitered armed with precision-guided missiles, along with a flying gunship capable of drenching the area with cannon-fire. It would have been a hard shot to miss.

But before they could fire, the Americans knew they would have to get past the lawyers.

In the amorphous twilight of the Afghan war, it isn’t enough to draw a bead on the enemy. Before they shoot, U.S. troops have to navigate a tricky legal and political question: When is it OK for them to kill Taliban?

The operation late last month in Elbak, a flyspeck village in Kandahar province, exposed the complexity of implementing President Barack Obama’s Afghan strategy in the mud-brick villages, steep mountains and vast poppy fields where the combat takes place. With their Afghan allies walking into a possible ambush that night, U.S. commanders, monitoring video feeds and radio traffic miles from the front, had to judge whether enemy fighters who weren’t actually fighting constituted an imminent threat.

*- Rest of article attached via PDF*_


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## AWP (Jun 20, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> just reading it had my head pounding with frustration - cannot imagine what the guys living this must be feeling...



I just want to point out this was the norm for conventional forces going back to at least 2005. I pretty sure SF units have had the same restrictions for at least a few years.

2013 or 2014 we had a Kiowa shot up within a few miles of Bagram. The trail helo could see the fire but for some reason couldn't identify a weapon at the POO (a creekbed). He requested permission to fire on these 2-3 guys chilling at the site of the ground fire. The response?

"They might be farmers," request denied.

To this day we have a/c getting shot up. If the crew can't PID a shooter w/ weapon they can't return fire. "Recently" we've had two Apaches shot up and they couldn't return fire. One took a round through the bottom of the fuselage. Armored tub around the cockpit for the win.


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## WardenAFG (Jun 20, 2016)

I'd have to say some of the things I've been a part of, witnessed and overheard in conversations recently have been..... interesting. 

While there is no war here officially the conflict is definitely still ongoing.

Honestly, the best enabler a team can have these days is an ROE/legal specialist. What's more is that we don't even have it as bad as our international partners who are only allowed to respond to hostile fire with weapons of the same or lesser caliber than the ones they're being shot at with. 

Imagine the following if you would. You're pinned down in an open field by PKM and RPG fire coming from bunkers less than 100 meters away; the occupants of which are audibly screaming "allahu akhbar". Your request for air assets was just answered with the question, "Do you really need to be that aggressive at the moment?"

What do you do? How do you respond to that?

I agree with tailoring back the assets and logistical support we provide to the Afghans. A reliance has been put on that support,and at some point that addiction has to be kicked. However, if coalition forces are deemed necessary to partner ANSF on operations shouldn't that directive be likewise partnered with trust and flexibility from the people that issued that directive?


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## Gunz (Jun 20, 2016)

WardenAFG said:


> I agree with tailoring back the assets and logistical support we provide to the Afghans. A reliance has been put on that support,and at some point that addiction has to be kicked. However, if coalition forces are deemed necessary to partner ANSF on operations shouldn't that directive be likewise partnered with trust and flexibility from the people that issued that directive?



In my war, we called "tailoring back the assets" _Vietnamization. _In other words, we bug out in pre-planned gradients and you pick up the slack. Only there won't be any _flexibility_ because we have a schedule for disengagement that is carved in stone so when Date X arrives certain assets will rotate whether you need them or not. And good luck with that arrangement.


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## Brill (Jul 4, 2016)

Finally some good news from that shithole.  Academy grads doing what they do. 

Our Story


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 4, 2016)

That's some expensive saffron.  It's already expensive as it is.


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## AWP (Jul 15, 2016)

Um, a story about just ONE? Do you see the kind of shit these clowns in PK pull.

Militant with US bounty on his head walks free in Pakistan | Fox News



> LAHORE, Pakistan –  The United States has put a $10 million bounty on his head, labeling him a terrorist. He is one of the most wanted men in India. Yet, Hafiz Saeed walks free in his home country of Pakistan, denouncing Washington and New Delhi in public speeches.
> 
> Now the man identified by the U.S. as a founding member of the Lashkar-e-Taiba militant group is weighing in on the flare-up of violence in Kashmir, the mountainous region divided between Pakistani and Indian control, where dozens have died in clashes with protesters after Indian security forces killed a top rebel leader.



#PizzaCutter


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## Gunz (Aug 5, 2016)

As strange as it may seem, Afghanistan would not be my first choice for a holiday destination:

Taliban Ambush US, European Tourists in Afghanistan | Military.com


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## Brill (Aug 5, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> 2013 or 2014 we had a Kiowa shot up within a few miles of Bagram. The trail helo could see the fire but for some reason couldn't identify a weapon at the POO (a creekbed). He requested permission to fire on these 2-3 guys chilling at the site of the ground fire. The response?
> 
> "They might be farmers," request denied.



Are you talking about the Kiowa in Kapisa near FOB Kutsbach in Feb 2013?


----------



## AWP (Aug 5, 2016)

lindy said:


> Are you talking about the Kiowa in Kapisa near FOB Kutsbach in Feb 2013?



They never left the 10 mile "bubble" controlled by the Bagram tower according to the controllers. This was 2013 or 2014 I believe but the dates are starting to run together. Maybe we're talking about the same incident, but as described to me there might be two similar incidents. There was a downed UAV and the -64's hovering nearby couldn't fire on the looters because "they might be farmers." Like "one team, one fight", as soon as you hear it you know some stupid shit's about to happen.


----------



## Brill (Aug 5, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> They never left the 10 mile "bubble" controlled by the Bagram tower according to the controllers. This was 2013 or 2014 I believe but the dates are starting to run together. Maybe we're talking about the same incident, but as described to me there might be two similar incidents. There was a downed UAV and the -64's hovering nearby couldn't fire on the looters because "they might be farmers." Like "one team, one fight", as soon as you hear it you know some stupid shit's about to happen.



Must be different. A pair was supporting us when the lead was shot down by a a fuck ton of PKM and our split team was closer, so we QRF'd.

The Talibs tried to use the wreckage as bait...foolish plan.  I have some helmet cam vids somewhere.


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## AWP (Aug 5, 2016)

lindy said:


> Must be different. A pair was supporting us when the lead was shot down by a a fuck ton of PKM and our split team was closer, so we QRF'd.
> 
> The Talibs tried to use the wreckage as bait...foolish plan.  I have some helmet cam vids somewhere.



Definitely not the same deal. These guys took fire and RTB'ed, landing within minutes. No one was shot down. Lead was damaged but had a controlled landing.


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## Brill (Aug 5, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Definitely not the same deal. These guys took fire and RTB'ed, landing within minutes. No one was shot down. Lead was damaged but had a controlled landing.



Gimme a week to sober up...

http://a57.foxnews.com/images.foxne...0.img.jpg/876/493/1470430917238.jpg?ve=1&tl=1


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## AWP (Aug 5, 2016)

Eat a dick, @lindy.


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## AWP (Aug 8, 2016)

The TTP decided to generate some news....by bombing a hospital. Around 70 dead.

Blast in Pakistan hospital kills at least 70 - CNN.com


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## CDG (Aug 31, 2016)

The FOUO briefing about Kunduz is out on the AFSOC sharepoint for those of you with access.  It's a good brief.  Doesn't reveal anything earth-shattering, but adds some more details that definitely help paint a more clear picture.  Bottom line remains the same, a lot of people fucked up.  Which is almost always the case in these types of incidents.  The aircrew, JTAC, and GFC all had chances to prevent this from happening, and didn't.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Aug 31, 2016)

Cool.....back on this.....they cannot be held accountable because then that creates what is called "second guessing!":-"

Now we have a weak upper approval process for strikes....aka an O-8 has to approve an O-4 TGT!
Or the A/C won't say what it sees...maybe that was a possible probable maybe weapon......

Well done!!!!


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## AWP (Dec 2, 2016)

I really hope this is some PK spin job and not actual comments between Trump and Sharif.

PR No. 298  PM TELEPHONES PRESIDENT-ELECT USA   Islamabad: November 30, 2016

Donald Trump reportedly praises Pakistan's 'terrific' PM" - CNNPolitics.com



> President Trump said Prime Minister Nawaz Sharif you have a very good reputation. You are a terrific guy. You are doing amazing work which is visible in every way. I am looking forward to see you soon.



Fuck Pakistan.


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## Ranger Psych (Dec 2, 2016)

Maybe hes looking forward to watching drone footage? just trying to stay positive.


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## AWP (Mar 23, 2017)

This is shocking, shocking I say!

Russia may be aiding Taliban in Afghanistan, top US general says



> "I've seen the influence of Russia of late, increased influence in terms of association and perhaps even supply to the Taliban," Army Gen. Curtis Scaparrotti, the head of the U.S. military's European Command and the Supreme Allied Commander for NATO, told the Senate Armed Services Committee.



Russia and America involved in Afghanistan? I swear I've heard this story before.



> Officials say Iran and Pakistan have also lent support to the Taliban in the past year.



The last year?!?!?!?!? Are you shitting me? The last YEAR? How about "since the 90's" as a more realistic estimate. Damn, we've turned such a blind eye to those two shitty, should-be-salted-off-the-earth countries it is sickening. All of our dead and we barely recognize one of the root causes for our failure.


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## CDG (Mar 24, 2017)

The Taliban have re-taken Sangin.

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/23/..._term=Editorial - Military - Early Bird Brief


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## AWP (Mar 24, 2017)

CDG said:


> The Taliban have re-taken Sangin.



Which a metric ton of US and UK forces died for. I wish we'd pull out and wait for the civil war/ Taliban v IS war to conclude.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 24, 2017)

AWP said:


> This is shocking, shocking I say!
> 
> Russia may be aiding Taliban in Afghanistan, top US general says
> 
> ...




Yep.  Russia... and Pakistan... and Iran... and China... ISIS, AQ, and probably anyone else who wishes us ill.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 24, 2017)

CDG said:


> The Taliban have re-taken Sangin.
> 
> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/03/23/world/asia/afghanistan-taliban-helmand-sangin.html?_r=0&utm_source=Sailthru&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=EBB 3.24.17&utm_term=Editorial - Military - Early Bird Brief



Reports of Sangin’s fall are 'complete fabrication,' U.S. military insists


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## AWP (Mar 24, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> Yep.  Russia... and Pakistan... and Iran... and China... ISIS, AQ, and probably anyone else who wishes us ill.



When people talk about the Iran deal I just want to throw up. EFP's in Iraq, providing a safe haven plus material support for the TB, plus a few other things....Short of an open war we should do everything we can to destroy that country.


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## Gunz (Mar 29, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Reports of Sangin’s fall are 'complete fabrication,' U.S. military insists



Yeah. Is that why they got the fuck out like their hair was on fire and have stopped releasing casualty figures? And why Marines are apparently being tasked to go back in there because not enough Marine blood has been shed for that shithole? 

There are two things in this world that remain undefeated. Heroin and pussy. And since Helmand's all about heroin, there's global demand as an added incentive for your average fanatical Muslim killers and tribal bandits to try and keep their mitts on it.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 29, 2017)

Our own people act like Baghdad Bob often it seems.


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## R.Caerbannog (Mar 29, 2017)

We could spray Roundup all over the Helmland province, or just salt the earth, or add some nematode that attacks a poppy plants root systems. Maybe add another win for Mosanto.


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## Gunz (Mar 30, 2017)

R.Caerbannog said:


> We could spray Roundup all over the Helmland province, or just salt the earth, or add some nematode that attacks a poppy plants root systems. Maybe add another win for Mosanto.



That would make too much sense.


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## AWP (Apr 22, 2017)

Major attack on an Afghan Army base in Mazar-e Sharif. I'm not surprised and if anything I'm surprised we haven't seen more of these.

Afghan casualties in Taliban Mazar-e Sharif attack pass 100 - BBC News



> More than 100 Afghan soldiers were killed or wounded in a Taliban attack on an army base on Friday, the defence ministry has confirmed.
> 
> Fighting lasted for several hours near the city of Mazar-e Sharif in northern Balkh province.
> 
> Insurgents targeted those leaving Friday prayers at the base's mosque and others in a canteen, the army said.



That horrible little country continues to circle the drain. Our options are pure garbage. Leave and cede the country to the TB, HQN, and ISIS for their inevitable PK influenced civil war or stay like the little Dutch Boy and poke our fingers in the dike? Let the civil war bleed the country dry and then go back in with a better plan? What a dumpster fire. We have kids in that country who were three when the towers fell and you could have had a child after they dropped who will get their crack at the country in a few years. WTF?


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## Gunz (Apr 25, 2017)

AWP said:


> Major attack on an Afghan Army base in Mazar-e Sharif. I'm not surprised and if anything I'm surprised we haven't seen more of these.
> 
> Afghan casualties in Taliban Mazar-e Sharif attack pass 100 - BBC News
> 
> ...




Yeah, unfuckingbelievable...or maybe not. Ten Talitubbies in two trucks kill 140 ANA and wound 160. Very few people were armed at the base...nobody challenged these motherfuckers, they just drove right the fuck in, dressed in Army uniforms and claiming they had wounded. And 4 of the attackers were ANA turncoats who knew the layout. :wall::wall:

An American advisory presence there for 16 years and these motherfuckers are still shithead soldiers. One would expect some significant uptick in competence among the counterparts after a decade and a half commitment, and they're still getting their asses handed to them.

It must be awfully frustrating for those of you who've been involved in this war and involved with FID to see this kind of debacle.


----------



## AWP (Apr 25, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> It must be awfully frustrating for those of you who've been involved in this war and involved with FID to see this kind of debacle.



I once a believed the country could be turned around enough to make some progress, that we could at least destroy/ degrade the Taliban enough for the Afghan gov't to finish the job. Our ineptitude at COIN coupled with the Afghan culture means it is impossible, simply impossible. I think we had a legitimate chance, but blew it and were aided by the Afghans even as they complained we didn't do enough. My only interest in the country is the same that brought us into the mess: the ability for terrorist organizations to thrive in such an environment. The only real solution in my mind is to eliminate Pakistan, kill off half of Afghanistan, and give the Pashtuns everything to the Indus. Otherwise...that toilet will continue to be a problem.


----------



## RackMaster (Apr 26, 2017)

Watching a great documentary that defines how we ended up here and why we'll never clean up the mess.

Afghanistan: The Great Game

TV review: Afghanistan: The Great Game, A Personal View with Rory Stewart; The Queen and I

Part 1





Part 2


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## Gunz (Apr 26, 2017)

I watched Part 1. I'll catch Part 2 tomorrow. Thanks for sharing.

I think in the case of our involvement post 9/11, a lot of our people took the time to research Afghan history; a number were probably already familiar with the Mujahideen from the Soviet war. 

I would like to think, that in spite of the totality of fucked-up-ness in Afghanistan today that we--the US/ISAF--went in with our eyes a bit more open than the British did in 1839 or the Russians in 1979. Having said that, killing terrorists was a good thing, something that is achievable...while building a democracy out of tribal bandits and an economy based on heroin is probably beyond the reach of anybody.


----------



## AWP (Apr 26, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> I watched Part 1. I'll catch Part 2 tomorrow. Thanks for sharing.
> 
> I think in the case of our involvement post 9/11, a lot of our people took the time to research Afghan history; a number were probably already familiar with the Mujahideen from the Soviet war.



The initial group may have, maybe, but by 2004 I ran across a number of officers and SNCO's who hadn't so much as glanced at Bear Went over the Mountain (if they knew of it). In 2008 the general level of ignorance was perhaps worse. No one knew of Ghost Wars despite it winning a Pulitzer Prize and then as in 2004 their knowledge of the Russian excursion was "they got their asses kicked, but that won't happen to us because have a better army." I'm sure people were well read, but the majority were not. They viewed Russia's interest in Afghanistan as a land grab for a warm water port and had never heard of The Great Game. I was, and remain, appalled.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 26, 2017)

AWP said:


> The initial group may have, maybe, but by 2004 I ran across a number of officers and SNCO's who hadn't so much as glanced at Bear Went over the Mountain (if they knew of it). In 2008 the general level of ignorance was perhaps worse. No one knew of Ghost Wars despite it winning a Pulitzer Prize and then as in 2004 their knowledge of the Russian excursion was "they got their asses kicked, but that won't happen to us because have a better army." I'm sure people were well read, but the majority were not. They viewed Russia's interest in Afghanistan as a land grab for a warm water port and had never heard of The Great Game. I was, and remain, appalled.


Afghanistan...opening cans of whoopass on invaders since before Alexander.


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## Teufel (Apr 26, 2017)

I brought dog eared copies of The Bear Went Over the Mountain and its companion book The Other Side of the Mountain to Afghanistan. Several of the vignettes occurred in the Helmand province and my local police chief fought in some of those battles. As a Mujahideen. He signed my book.


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## AWP (May 1, 2017)

A detailed look at the attack in MeS. I'm still surprised we haven't seen more of these

Inside deadliest Taliban attack against Afghan troops


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## AWP (May 15, 2017)

Those wild and crazy Afghans. To be fair, if they exiled every mass murderer in that country they'd be left with about 20 people in the gov't. Still...what a turd.

Afghan government welcomes Kabul's 'butcher'



> KABUL, Afghanistan –  He is known simply as the "Butcher of Kabul" and, after 20 years in self-imposed exile, Gulbuddin Hekmatyar returned last week to the Afghan capitol he once mercilessly massacred. President Ghani and members of his national unity government warmly welcomed the warlord.
> 
> After fighting the Soviet Union and the Afghan communist government during the 1980s with his Hezb-e-Islami militia, Hekmatyar, 69, and other warlords eventually sparked civil war within Afghanistan. To assuage his radicalism, he was elevated to prime minister in 1993. But that was not enough; shortly after that he was accused of orchestrating the destruction of Kabul and the deaths of tens of thousands of civilians and coalition government soldiers.


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## ThunderHorse (May 15, 2017)

> But the most significant of Hekmatyar's conditions in signing was that the 3,000-plus Hezb-e-Islami members in prison be released immediately.



That sounds not good.


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## AWP (May 15, 2017)

Fuck that country. It is a miserable culture with miserable people in a miserable place. They are humans in genetics only. They don't want anything more than filth, squalor, and virtual slavery because if they did, they'd work towards better lives. They don't want independence, they want someone else to fight and die for them or they're content with their warlords. We need to either leave or go in there and kill, kill, kill until the carrot is an attractive option. Personally, I'd let them fight it out and let the animals eat the animals. Right now, that country deserves nothing but scorn and death. They deserve nothing good.

And they are still better than Pakistan. Strip the flesh, salt the wound.


----------



## SpitfireV (May 15, 2017)

Are you talking Pashtuns or Afghans in general?


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## pardus (May 16, 2017)

AWP said:


> Those wild and crazy Afghans. To be fair, if they exiled every mass murderer in that country they'd be left with about 20 people in the gov't. Still...what a turd.
> 
> Afghan government welcomes Kabul's 'butcher'





> Aziz Amin Ahmadzai, a prominent Afghan political analyst, concurred that "the prisoners were involved in various crimes, especially insurgency," and captured on the battlefield within the past 15 years. He remains confident that the government "will keep an eye on the prisoners," but emphasized that it as important for Hezb-e-Islami to ensure its members don't pose a danger to society.



You see? Everything is going to be A OK!


----------



## AWP (May 16, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> Are you talking Pashtuns or Afghans in general?



Yes. There are no innocents in that sewer, only perpetrators of various degrees.


----------



## SpitfireV (May 16, 2017)

AWP said:


> Yes. There are no innocents in that sewer, only perpetrators of various degrees.


Fair. Just needed a bit of clarification for my own gratification.


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 16, 2017)

So apparently social activism is a viable vocation in Afghanistan: Hope. Concern. Resignation. Afghans have mixed feelings about the possibility of more U.S. troops



> ‘With more troops, the number of terrorists would also increase,’ Ahmad Shaheer, a social activist in Kabul, the capital, said more troops won’t necessarily mean greater security.


----------



## RackMaster (May 16, 2017)

Well maybe they should do something about the terrorists then.


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 30, 2017)

Geeze: this just keeps going- http://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-40060378


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## ThunderHorse (May 31, 2017)

Well...ok, time to fucking pack up, JESUS H CHRIST: Massive blast in the heart of Kabul’s diplomatic quarter kills at least 80


----------



## pardus (May 31, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Well...ok, time to fucking pack up, JESUS H CHRIST: Massive blast in the heart of Kabul’s diplomatic quarter kills at least 80



Why? What changed?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jun 1, 2017)

pardus said:


> Why? What changed?


Well nothing.  I guess it's an update which only means: SOSBS (Same Old Shit Bull Shit).


----------



## racing_kitty (Jun 1, 2017)

The blast seat, from what I've seen, is pretty impressive.  That's what you get when you fill up a water truck with explosives.


----------



## pardus (Jun 1, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Well nothing.  I guess it's an update which only means: SOSBS (Same Old Shit Bull Shit).



Yup, so no dramatic changes required.


----------



## RackMaster (Jun 1, 2017)

This is beyond frustrating to see these assholes still successfully attacking so called safe areas.  Nothing much has changed...


----------



## Gunz (Jun 1, 2017)

They will strike where you ain't. They will strike where you were. They will strike anywhere.

Because they live there.


----------



## pardus (Jun 1, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> They will strike where you ain't. They will strike where you were. They will strike anywhere.
> 
> Because they live there.



and it will never end...


----------



## AWP (Jun 15, 2017)

I've been away for a bit because of vacation, but I wanted to pop in and refresh this thread with a hearty "Fuck Pakistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Pakistan, Qatar, Pakistan, Russia, Pakistan, China, Pakistan, and Afghanistan." May you all die of hemorrhagic dick cancer of the mouth. Or scurvy. I don't care, just die.


----------



## Totentanz (Jun 15, 2017)

AWP said:


> I've been away for a bit because of vacation, but I wanted to pop in and refresh this thread with a hearty "Fuck Pakistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Pakistan, Qatar, Pakistan, Russia, Pakistan, China, Pakistan, and Afghanistan." May you all die of hemorrhagic dick cancer of the mouth. Or scurvy. I don't care, just die.



"Well, there's egg and bacon; egg sausage and bacon; egg and spam; egg bacon and spam; egg bacon sausage and spam; spam bacon sausage and spam; spam egg spam spam bacon and spam; spam sausage spam spam bacon spam tomato and spam;"

Back on topic - ISIS claims to have seized Tora Bora.  https://www.reuters.com/article/us-afghanistan-islamic-state-idUSKBN1960Z6


----------



## Gunz (Jun 15, 2017)

Maybe Tora Bora needs a few more MOABs.


----------



## Gunz (Jun 15, 2017)

AWP said:


> I've been away for a bit because of vacation, but I wanted to pop in and refresh this thread with a hearty "Fuck Pakistan, Afghanistan, Pakistan, Iran, Pakistan, Qatar, Pakistan, Russia, Pakistan, China, Pakistan, and Afghanistan." May you all die of hemorrhagic dick cancer of the mouth. Or scurvy. I don't care, just die.



You forgot Pakistan, North Korea and Pakistan


----------



## CQB (Jun 16, 2017)

Pakistan ticks all the boxes. 60% illiteracy, limited water & a nuclear power. What's not to like?


----------



## Andoni (Jun 16, 2017)

CQB said:


> Pakistan ticks all the boxes. 60% illiteracy, limited water & a nuclear power. What's not to like?



I hate that fucking shithole of a country.

Edited to add an emoji for wry, emphatic disgust. Couldn't find one.


----------



## CQB (Jun 18, 2017)

Can we import the @digrar beer drinker emoji?


----------



## CDG (Jun 19, 2017)

We have a new plan!!!  Despite the history there, I really think this could work well.  There's a reason the saying goes, "The enemy of my enemy is my friend".  We have to deal with one problem at a time, in triage order, so this just makes sense.

Pentagon begins arming 'Taliban' militia group to fight ISIS in Afghanistan


IKIS


----------



## Kraut783 (Jun 19, 2017)

I kinda think we should have done that a long time ago....use the indigenous group against the foreigners (AQ/ISIS...etc).  Worse thing we did was take power away from the warlords of the regions....IMO


----------



## CQB (Jun 19, 2017)

My enemys' enemy is my friend...plus a change plus ca meme chose.


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 19, 2017)

Let the Taliban have that shithole, the people deserve it.
We could have been gone long ago had Dummy not fucked the plan over via micro-managing.


----------



## DocIllinois (Jun 19, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> Let the Taliban have that shithole, the people deserve it.
> We could have been gone long ago had Dummy not fucked the plan over via micro-managing.



We leave.  They fight amongst each other and export more terrorists.  Reports of human right violations build up.  

Throw in something about vast mineral reserves, and how the West has a responsibility to save the country because we made it into a warring nation by backing religious organizations who fought the 1980s Russians.  

We return.


----------



## AWP (Jun 20, 2017)

DocIllinois said:


> We leave.  They fight amongst each other and export more terrorists.  Reports of human right violations build up.
> 
> Throw in something about vast mineral reserves, and how the West has a responsibility to save the country because we made it into a warring nation by backing religious organizations who fought the 1980s Russians.
> 
> We return.



The issue is that they don't want us there now and the country doesn't want to support itself. We have guys and gals dying for no reason if only to...defeat ISIL-K? Prevent terrorists using it as a base for global attacks? The Afghans pay lip service to peace and our contributions are in blood and treasure for an inevitable loss/ return to the status quo antebellum. Our departure and guaranteed civil war on a massive scale (they are currently waging one though no one will admit it) might just make them desire our return. Maybe. Hopefully. Until then we aren't accomplishing anything positive or lasting. The country can burn.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jun 20, 2017)

Afghanistan is the graveyard of armies.  Why we continue this circle jerk idk.


----------



## AWP (Jun 30, 2017)

As much as I hate to agree with the author...

There is No Other Way with Pakistan



> Hence, the decision has already been made. There is no mood to cut any deal on the Haqqani Network. There was a time when Pakistan supported the Haqqani Network out of uncertainty, but that is no longer the case. The Pakistani establishment sees the Haqqani Network as not just its trump card but also the _only_ card to stay in the game in Afghanistan — especially when the United States inevitably, in its view, fails to deliver. The continued American push on the Haqqani Network, therefore, is unlikely to force Pakistan to change its behavior, as it goes directly against its national interest.



@Marauder06 and I have said this about the HQN and Pakistan for...well, too long now.



> The chatter in the Pakistani security establishment is that almost all players in Afghanistan have their preferred militant outfits that they support (American policymakers should keep in mind how Pakistan views the various forces under the umbrella of the Afghan National Security and Defense Forces). *Why, then, should Pakistan give up on its long-held assets*?



Other than being a known terrorist organization?



> ...the United States is in no position to influence Pakistan’s security policies in a meaningful way...



And this is the most damning, and truthful, statement of the entire article. The only thing missing is a "haha, we killed your friends and you can't do anything about it" statement.

Fuck Pakistan. I'd listen to Nickelback every day for the rest of my life if it meant the death of every man, woman, and child in that miserable dump.


----------



## AWP (Jun 30, 2017)

And for those of you who think my commitment is hyperbole...


----------



## Kraut783 (Jun 30, 2017)

Nice looking girl in the video......just saying


----------



## RackMaster (Jun 30, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> Nice looking girl in the video......just saying



Agreed bit it doesn't counter that horrible sound...


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 1, 2017)

So much Nickelback hate...


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 2, 2017)

AWP said:


> And for those of you who think my commitment is hyperbole...




I'm pretty sure this was the opening song that @Il Duce chose for the radio show he and I did together in Korea.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Jul 2, 2017)

No surprise there.....:blkeye:


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 9, 2017)

Well played payed Canada 

Ex-Gitmo inmate gets apology, millions from Canada

TORONTO — A former Guantanamo Bay prisoner *who pleaded guilty to killing a U.S. soldier in Afghanistan* *received an apology and a multimillion-dollar payment from the Canadian government* after a court ruling said his rights were abused.

A government statement Friday said details of the settlement with Omar Khadr were confidential, but an official familiar with the deal said previously that it was for 10.5 million Canadian dollars ($8 million). A different official confirmed the money had been given to Khadr. Both insisted on speaking anonymously because they were not authorized to discuss the deal publicly.


----------



## Poccington (Jul 9, 2017)

Fucking hell.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 9, 2017)

AWP said:


> As much as I hate to agree with the author...
> 
> There is No Other Way with Pakistan
> 
> ...



Leave Afghanistan and cut all immigration from Pakistan as a final fuck you would be nice.


----------



## RackMaster (Jul 9, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Well played payed Canada
> 
> Ex-Gitmo inmate gets apology, millions from Canada
> 
> ...



Canadian's and specifically Veteran's are pissed.  One of the arguments is it's saving tax dollars from court fees and him winning the 20 million he wanted.  But yet this government still fights Veteran's in court over our compensation.  And now thanks to this BS many think sleep deprivation is torture.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jul 9, 2017)

"The Canadian-born Khadr was 15 when he was captured by U.S. troops following a firefight at a suspected al-Qaida compound in Afghanistan that resulted in the death of an American special forces medic, U.S. Army Sgt. First Class Christopher Speer. Khadr, who was suspected of throwing the grenade that killed Speer, was taken to Guantanamo and ultimately charged with war crimes by a military commission."

Fuck you Trudeau, and Fuck you Khadr !!


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 9, 2017)

From what I understand the Trudeau government has effectively blocked the widow and Soldier whose eye was destroyed from receiving the money they're owed per a lawsuit. Trudeau is a POS.


----------



## Blizzard (Jul 12, 2017)

WTFO?!   Oh, Canada...


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 29, 2017)

Here's a pretty good read: The Empire Stopper


----------



## RackMaster (Aug 29, 2017)

Give him an inch...  The sister in question is the mostly open supporter of terrorism in the family.

Omar Khadr seeks softer bail conditions so he may contact controversial sister Zaynab

Why Omar Khadr’s sister, who once defended 9/11 attacks, is coming to fore again


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 29, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> Give him an inch...  The sister in question is the mostly open supporter of terrorism in the family.
> 
> Omar Khadr seeks softer bail conditions so he may contact controversial sister Zaynab
> 
> Why Omar Khadr’s sister, who once defended 9/11 attacks, is coming to fore again


Sending him back to GITMO would make much more sense.


----------



## AWP (Aug 29, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Here's a pretty good read: The Empire Stopper



I'm just happy to see this paragraph:



> In truth, no great empires perished solely because of Afghanistan. Perhaps a better way to put it is that Afghanistan is the battleground of empires. Even without easily accessible resources, the country has still been blessed — or cursed, more likely — with a geopolitical position that has repeatedly put it in someone or other’s way.



I HATE the "graveyard of empires" phrase. It is pure garbage for the reasons above.


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 29, 2017)

That's exactly what I was thinking.  So many smug pseudo-intellectuals like to talk about "how Afghanistan has never been conquered."  Please.  Any major empire that wanted to came in and conquered, colonized, and/or occupied whatever parts of Afghanistan they wanted.  They just ultimately decided it wasn't worth it to stick around.


----------



## x SF med (Aug 30, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> And now thanks to this BS many think sleep deprivation is torture.



Ok, if sleep deprivation is torture, I want my 10MM Canadian for being in the Army....  and working... and going to University... and working...   that's 40MM Canadian you fucking hosers owe me...  I'll settle for 15MM US right now.


----------



## x SF med (Aug 30, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> That's exactly what I was thinking.  So many smug pseudo-intellectuals like to talk about "how Afghanistan has never been conquered."  Please.  Any major empire that wanted to came in and conquered, colonized, and/or occupied whatever parts of Afghanistan they wanted.  They just ultimately decided it wasn't worth it to stick around.



Because....  Afghan Women....

Yeah...  I went to Kipling....


----------



## AWP (Aug 30, 2017)

x SF med said:


> Because....  Afghan Women....
> 
> Yeah...  I went to Kipling....



Such an underrated author these days.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 31, 2017)

Great writer, that man. Kipling, Service, London...Manly men no longer in favor in literary circles.


----------



## x SF med (Aug 31, 2017)

AWP said:


> Such an underrated author these days.



Kipling should be required reading for all abut to deploy to AFG/PAK and other -Stans.

He was a highly decorated soldier, author, and scholar...


----------



## AWP (Sep 1, 2017)

For those of you who are curious:

COMPLETE COLLECTION OF POEMS BY RUDYARD KIPLING

This one is timeless. Everyone should read this and if you think it doesn't apply to your service...I feel sorry for you.

Poetry Lovers' Page - Rudyard Kipling: The Young British Soldier


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 1, 2017)

AWP said:


> For those of you who are curious:
> 
> COMPLETE COLLECTION OF POEMS BY RUDYARD KIPLING
> 
> ...



My boss at the time took me out to dinner before I left for boot camp.  He gave me a copy of the poem "If"  and had a discussion with it about me.   Tim then mailed me a copy of it to MCRD and I kept it with my letters through Boot.  My dad and step-dad were good men, but I have always been fortunate to have older men in my life willing to take the 'fatherly role' I never really got from either of them.

If— by Rudyard Kipling


----------



## x SF med (Sep 2, 2017)

A follow on to @AWP and @Ooh-Rah ...  read Kipling's Kim if you want to even begin to understand the mindset of the Kush.


And yes, this same Kipling wrote the Jungle Books and other children's stories, political essays and other scholarly treaties.


----------



## Frank S. (Sep 2, 2017)

x SF med said:


> A follow on to @AWP and @Ooh-Rah ...  read Kipling's Kim if you want to even begin to understand the mindset of the Kush.
> 
> 
> And yes, this same Kipling wrote the Jungle Books and other children's stories, political essays and other scholarly treaties.



One of the greatest writers. "The power of the dog" is one of his best poems.


----------



## Frank S. (Sep 2, 2017)

x SF med said:


> Because....  Afghan Women....
> 
> Yeah...  I went to Kipling....



Ah, the stench of patchouli and armpit vinegar. 

Yeah... I went to Berkeley....


----------



## Poccington (Sep 2, 2017)

Close enough to a full page of people discussing Kipling.

One of the reasons why this site is the shit.


----------



## AWP (Jan 5, 2018)

I think everyone can guess where I stand on this story.

US suspends security assistance to Pakistan

US suspends security assistance to Pakistan - CNNPolitics



> Historically, the United States has provided Pakistan over $1 billion in security assistance annually. Some of that money has already been paid out or withheld for the 2016 fiscal year, but the amount withheld could potentially top $1 billion.



I can't wait to read about the fallout from this decision. Closing borders, ending tanker overflight, actually shooting down drones like they claimed weeks ago.

"...in the face with a garden weasel."
----

How cool is it that Fox and CNN have the same headline?!


----------



## Gunz (Jan 5, 2018)

AWP said:


> How cool is it that Fox and CNN have the same headline?!



I can't see too many Americans having an issue with this, although Trump-haters are gonna hate. It's absolutely the right decision given the track record of these treacherous bastards. We threw 13-billion down the shitter. And Leon Panetta has a problem with it? Really? Tell that to the families of our Fallen, and the men and women who've been fighting these Pak-assisted cunts for 17 years.


----------



## AWP (Jan 5, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> I can't see too many Americans having an issue with this, although Trump-haters are gonna hate. It's absolutely the right decision given the track record of these treacherous bastards. We threw 13-billion down the shitter. And Leon Panetta has a problem with it? Really? Tell that to the families of our Fallen, and the men and women who've been fighting these Pak-assisted cunts for 17 years.



I love you. Level of difficulty: no homo.


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 5, 2018)

AWP said:


> I think everyone can guess where I stand on this story.
> 
> US suspends security assistance to Pakistan
> 
> ...


Trump can still retaliate if they do that, H2B and other visas suddenly stop getting processed and Pakistan's GDP takes another nosedive.
He's doing to them what they have been doing to us for years.


----------



## AWP (Feb 20, 2018)

Back in Afghanistan...Russians gonna's Russia and take absurd to new heights.

Russia Claims US Coalition "Mystery Helicopters" Supplying Arms To ISIS In Afghanistan



> The Russian government is continuing to demand the United States answer its questions regarding unsubstantiated rumors of unmarked helicopters delivering weapons or other aid to terrorist groups, including ISIS, in Northern Afghanistan. In line with a well established policy of responding to allegations about its own activities with equal or more sinister counter-claims, Russia is advancing this conspiracy theory to distract from questions about its own connections to Afghan militants, including the Taliban.
> 
> Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov reiterated that the U.S. government should address the accusations after meeting with his Pakistani counterpart, Khawaja Muhammad Asif, in Moscow on Feb. 20, 2018. The United States has accused both of those countries of either actively or tacitly backing the Taliban and other insurgents opposed to the government in Kabul and its American benefactors.



Hilarious.


----------



## CQB (Feb 20, 2018)

Too right, considering the 2001 attack on the Indian government in New Delhi was seriously viewed in Pakistan as an attack by Indian terrorists to discredit Pakistan. There’s gamed & then there’s gamed.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 1, 2018)

So uh, when are we leaving? Afghanistan offers to recognize Taliban as legitimate 'political party' - CNN


----------



## AWP (Mar 1, 2018)

Interesting move. The inclusion of women is a biggie. If the TB accept then they look weak and will drive supporters to ISIL-K or whatever. AF gov't can say "see, we're trying but these guys don't want peace" and continue to ask for foreign aid it so desperately needs to stay afloat. If the TB call their bluff though...that's when it becoomes interesting. Until then, my cynical side sees this as nothing but political theater.


----------



## CQB (Mar 1, 2018)

It’s early days. The basis of terrorism is to pick up the gun when you can’t get further by other means. You put down the gun when you achieve your aim. Nelson Mandela is still the worlds most famous terrorist in this regard. The Bashi Bazouks (sorry, Arabic not Pastun) look after a huge swathe of the country, by one account 70%. It’s a good time to negotiate as they’ve really pulled off some big hits recently & Ghani looks to be on the back foot.


----------



## AWP (Sep 2, 2018)

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Go eat a bag of dicks, PK.

Pentagon suspends $300M in military aid to Pakistan



> The Pentagon says it has suspended $300 milllion in military aid to Pakistan for not doing enough to battle terrorists groups inside its borders.



But is PK doing enough to fund terrorists OUTSIDE of its borders?



> In January, the Pentagon *suspended nearly $1 billion in aid to Pakistan *for what Defense Secretary James Mattis and other top officials said at the time was Islamabad’s* failure to take on the Haqqani terrorist network*.



Ima go touch myself.

Failure?!?!?!?! They fucking SUPPORT the HQN!!!!!!!!! "Taking on" the HQN is like fighting with your parents because they feed, clothe, and house you.

"Mom, dad, we aren't doing enough to destroy this family. I think its time I burned our house down."


----------



## Centermass (Oct 18, 2018)

*US commander survives Afghan gun attack*

The gunman, reported to be acting as a bodyguard, opened fire as officials left a meeting in Kandahar province. Provincial police chief Gen Abdul Raziq died, as did the head of the NDS intelligence service, reports said. The Kandahar governor was badly wounded.

US commander Gen Scott Miller escaped unhurt but two other US citizens were injured, Nato said. Initial reports say the attacker was killed. The Taliban said they carried out the attack and that Gen Miller and Gen Raziq were the targets. In a statement, the group referred to Gen Raziq as a "brutal police chief".

US commander survives Afghan gun attack


----------



## AWP (Oct 18, 2018)

At one point we had more UAV's over Afghanistan than Iraq. Good to know we aren't in involved in a war there or anything...


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 19, 2018)

Centermass said:


> *US commander survives Afghan gun attack*
> 
> The gunman, reported to be acting as a bodyguard, opened fire as officials left a meeting in Kandahar province. Provincial police chief Gen Abdul Raziq died, as did the head of the NDS intelligence service, reports said. The Kandahar governor was badly wounded.
> 
> ...



Thank god Gen. Miller didn’t get zapped, but does anyone here know if anyone can readily step up to Gen Raziq’s position? Man, what a kick in the nuts


----------



## Gunz (Oct 19, 2018)

MikeDelta said:


> Thank god Gen. Miller didn’t get zapped, but does anyone here know if anyone can readily step up to Gen Raziq’s position? Man, what a kick in the nuts




Maybe Ghani's younger brother, Tadin Khan. Whether anybody can actually "step up" and fill Raziq's shoes is the question. USFOR-A apparently depended upon him as the key strongman. A corrupt motherfucker, (who isn't over there), but he got things done. I would expect a power struggle and some destabilization.

The provincial NDS chief (Hussainkhel) was also killed. The gunman, Abu Dujana aka "Gulbuddin", was part of the Kandahar Gov's security detail.

The Taliban were late claiming that General Miller was also a target...that tells me they didn't have foreknowledge of assassin's plans and are taking advantage of the opportunity.


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 19, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Maybe Ghani's younger brother, Tadin Khan. Whether anybody can actually "step up" and fill Raziq's shoes is the question. USFOR-A apparently depended upon him as the key strongman. A corrupt motherfucker, (who isn't over there), but he got things done. I would expect a power struggle and some destabilization.
> 
> The provincial NDS chief (Hussainkhel) was also killed. The gunman, Abu Dujana aka "Gulbuddin", was part of the Kandahar Gov's security detail.
> 
> The Taliban were late claiming that General Miller was also a target...that tells me they didn't have foreknowledge of assassin's plans and are taking advantage of the opportunity.



Thanks. Good point on the late claim on General Miller. 

It sickens me to hear that the Taliban is gaining strength and able to step up their offensive action. I feel for everyone, especially the people who have served and put their blood, sweat and tears into that particular AO.


----------



## DasBoot (Oct 19, 2018)

We need to stop working with the Afghans. Keep them away from our guys, period. Don’t rely on them. We need to move from being a partner force to a straight up occupying force.


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 19, 2018)

DasBoot said:


> We need to stop working with the Afghans. Keep them away from our guys, period. Don’t rely on them. We need to move from being a partner force to a straight up occupying force.



@DasBoot Wait, don’t you like moving out with people that regularly have accidental discharges,  fake illnesses and foot problems? Oh yeah, I almost forgot, shoot at you  or tell all the bad guys when and where to shoot at you.

I know this is an awful thing to say because our troops have put so much work into these people. It’s aggravating to me, can’t even imagine how some people on the ground feel. But we have to do what we have to do.

All kidding aside though, I couldn’t agree more with what you said.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 19, 2018)

DasBoot said:


> We need to stop working with the Afghans. Keep them away from our guys, period. Don’t rely on them. We need to move from being a partner force to a straight up occupying force.




That would only strengthen the Taliban's claim that the Afghan government is just a puppet regime of the American crusaders...even though they themselves are a creation of Pakistani ISI. As much as I agree with the sentiment behind your post, it can't happen.

One of the dangers of working with host-nation forces involved in internecine warfare--or civil war, or insurgency--is treachery. Been there, seen that, and it'll never change. But the relationship, however flawed, has to be maintained.

A study conducted during OEF when green-on-blue murders were peaking found that most of these were _not_ committed by Afghans who'd developed resentment toward Americans...but rather by Afghan Muslims who'd become radicalized or who were planning to defect to the Taliban and committed the murders for "street cred."

As far as working with indigs it's sometimes like working with difficult children...children who might kill you when your back is turned. Frustrating and  challenging and sometimes even rewarding when they perform courageously.


----------



## AWP (Oct 19, 2018)

It doesn't matter what we do, it doesn't matter what the Afghans do, war will always exist in AFG so long as PK exists. "A-dub this is your typical hardline, anti-PK rhetoric we've heard for years. You're a broken record, be realistic."

I am. PK is the reason AFG is a destabilized mess and has been LONG before we arrived. PK is a known supporter of the Taliban and a known supporter of the Haqqanis, which makes them a known supporter of terrorist groups. The effects of a friendly border on insurgencies are well known and documented. The notion that we can negotiate with PK to eradicate the TB safe haven(s) is folly. Asking them to kill their fellow Muslims (Pashtuns, family) is laughable. It will never happen to the degree which is required.

Unless we're willing to invade a nuclear-armed country, we need to leave AFG.


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 19, 2018)

AWP said:


> It doesn't matter what we do, it doesn't matter what the Afghans do, war will always exist in AFG so long as PK exists. "A-dub this is your typical hardline, anti-PK rhetoric we've heard for years. You're a broken record, be realistic."
> 
> I am. PK is the reason AFG is a destabilized mess and has been LONG before we arrived. PK is a known supporter of the Taliban and a known supporter of the Haqqanis, which makes them a known supporter of terrorist groups. The effects of a friendly border on insurgencies are well known and documented. The notion that we can negotiate with PK to eradicate the TB safe haven(s) is folly. Asking them to kill their fellow Muslims (Pashtuns, family) is laughable. It will never happen to the degree which is required.
> 
> Unless we're willing to invade a nuclear-armed country, we need to leave AFG.



Makes absolute sense. Thanks for the brief, but concise education.


----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 20, 2018)

AWP said:


> It doesn't matter what we do, it doesn't matter what the Afghans do, war will always exist in AFG so long as PK exists. "A-dub this is your typical hardline, anti-PK rhetoric we've heard for years. You're a broken record, be realistic."
> 
> I am. PK is the reason AFG is a destabilized mess and has been LONG before we arrived. PK is a known supporter of the Taliban and a known supporter of the Haqqanis, which makes them a known supporter of terrorist groups. The effects of a friendly border on insurgencies are well known and documented. The notion that we can negotiate with PK to eradicate the TB safe haven(s) is folly. Asking them to kill their fellow Muslims (Pashtuns, family) is laughable. It will never happen to the degree which is required.
> 
> Unless we're willing to invade a nuclear-armed country, we need to leave AFG.



Concur.  The war in Afghanistan isn’t in Afghanistan, it’s in Pakistan.  We bribe those folks with a bajillion dollars annually in foreign aid and their intel service active works against us.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Oct 20, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> Concur.  The war in Afghanistan isn’t in Afghanistan, it’s in Pakistan.  We bribe those folks with a bajillion dollars annually in foreign aid and their intel service active works against us.


Considering PK's agricultural industry is dependent on western ag tech and knowledge, we can always cut them off there. If PK can't grow cotton, they can't fund their government. Like all historically utilized agricultural land, PK's soil health is in tatters and reliant on western tech, fertilizers, and seed. Considering PK's main exports are cotton and cotton based products, they're fucked if we decide to pull agricultural support (which we should).

The other thing that can hurt PK is banning their exchange students from US universities; especially those in fields relating to environmental remediation, engineering, and anything agricultural/plant science related. Good luck generating ag based goods with a (historically) heavily degraded biosphere and no knowledge to stop it.


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 20, 2018)

Pull out the region, full blockade on PK, give all funding to India and let them finish the job.  The whole AO ends up a nuke wasteland and we all go get ice cream.


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 20, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> Pull out the region, full blockade on PK, give all funding to India and let them finish the job.  The whole AO ends up a nuke wasteland and we all go get ice cream.



I want sprinkles on mine...and I never get sprinkles


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 20, 2018)

MikeDelta said:


> I want sprinkles on mine...and I never get sprinkles



Sprinkles and then chocolate dip...


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 20, 2018)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Considering PK's agricultural industry is dependent on western ag tech and knowledge, we can always cut them off there. If PK can't grow cotton, they can't fund their government. Like all historically utilized agricultural land, PK's soil health is in tatters and reliant on western tech, fertilizers, and seed. Considering PK's main exports are cotton and cotton based products, they're fucked if we decide to pull agricultural support (which we should).
> 
> The other thing that can hurt PK is banning their exchange students from US universities; especially those in fields relating to environmental remediation, engineering, and anything agricultural/plant science related. Good luck generating ag based goods with a (historically) heavily degraded biosphere and no knowledge to stop it.



Thanks for the insightful post, great site work as well. It would have to be a coalition ban on exchange students though, otherwise they would just go to the UK or EU. I can only imagine the politicing that would go up against this type of sanction/warfare.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Oct 20, 2018)

Everything Tibet east to Nepal drains into India (Ganges maybe can't remember)....Everything Tibet west to Kabul drains into Pakistan (Indus).


Get what I'm saying.......


----------



## Gunz (Oct 20, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> Pull out the region, full blockade on PK, give all funding to India and let them finish the job.  The whole AO ends up a nuke wasteland and we all go get ice cream.




I'm all for that.

Obviously the status quo in Afghanistan is not going to change. No matter what we do, as @AWP has pointed out, no matter how we approach it tactically, it's a fucking sinkhole. We've got thousands of SF/SOF units and advisory people there risking death and dismemberment every day for nothing.

Karzai was right about the one thing he kept insisting to the Americans: Why do you keep fighting here when the war is in Pakistan?


----------



## Topkick (Oct 20, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Obviously the status quo in Afghanistan is not going to change



Says everyone in history.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 20, 2018)

Topkick said:


> Says everyone in history.



To be more specific, it's not going to change as long as the Paks continue to aid and subsidize the Taliban and the Haqqani's and give them safe haven. I don't see them turning their back on the monster they created and have nurtured for decades. Not without a major internal upheaval or, as @RackMaster suggests, the Indians annihilate the whole fucking shitshow.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Oct 20, 2018)

MikeDelta said:


> Thanks for the insightful post, great site work as well. It would have to be a coalition ban on exchange students though, otherwise they would just go to the UK or EU. I can only imagine the politicing that would go up against this type of sanction/warfare.


Thanks dude. Most of it was just the application of the archaeology behind failed agrarian societies in the SW United States. The rest of the post was some lazy googling. For the most part, agrarian based cultures are very susceptible to weather and soil conditions. Intensive farming, over a long period of time, also tends to degrade soils to the point of infertility. Since cotton is a resource intensive crop to grow, it only makes sense that PK's land is on chemical life support.

PK's strength is it's ability to produce food and fiber (for SE asia). For the most part, PK has no material or cultural resources worthy of export or exploitation.


SpongeBob*24 said:


> Everything Tibet east to Nepal drains into India (Ganges maybe can't remember)....Everything Tibet west to Kabul drains into Pakistan (Indus).
> 
> 
> Get what I'm saying.......


This! Geographically, PK's most productive land is in a giant floodplain. The Indus is the lifeblood of PK, diverting it's headwaters would literally turn PK into a giant dust bowl. The devastation, behind a diverted Indus, would be biblical. Like, old testament wrath of god stuff.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Oct 20, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> To be more specific, it's not going to change as long as the Paks continue to aid and subsidize the Taliban and the Haqqani's and give them safe haven. I don't see them turning their back on the monster they created and have nurtured for decades. Not without a major internal upheaval or, as @RackMaster suggests, the Indians annihilate the whole fucking shitshow.


If we can break the back of PK's agricultural based economy, they won't be able to fund a darn thing. Nukes or not, create enough hunger and the dogs created by Pk will turn their teeth on them.


----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 20, 2018)

If we pull out and sent PK into an economic tailspin it will probably be worse for us in the long run.  Islamists, China, and Iran would step into the gap, there would be millions more displaced people and refugees, and PK would probably start another war with India in order to hold onto power.  

I would be quite happy to completely abandon both AF and PK if the end result want probably going to worse for us in the long run.  

That’s part of what makes this such a wicked problem.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Oct 20, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> If we pull out and sent PK into an economic tailspin it will probably be worse for us in the long run.  Islamists, China, and Iran would step into the gap, there would be millions more displaced people and refugees, and PK would probably start another war with India in order to hold onto power.
> 
> I would be quite happy to completely abandon both AF and PK if the end result want probably going to worse for us in the long run.
> 
> That’s part of what makes this such a wicked problem.


I dunno, maybe. I know that PK would be a rich prize (arable land) for any of the parties mentioned. Probably why Pakistan keeps trying to expand and has created such a mess for us in Afghanistan. As long as we keep our noses out of it, the best case for the world is a fractured and divided Pakistan. Without the Indus, PK is little better than a vast wasteland.


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 20, 2018)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Thanks dude. Most of it was just the application of the archaeology behind failed agrarian societies in the SW United States. The rest of the post was some lazy googling. For the most part, agrarian based cultures are very susceptible to weather and soil conditions. Intensive farming, over a long period of time, also tends to degrade soils to the point of infertility. Since cotton is a resource intensive crop to grow, it only makes sense that PK's land is on chemical life support.
> 
> PK's strength is it's ability to produce food and fiber (for SE asia). For the most part, PK has no material or cultural resources worthy of export or exploitation.
> 
> This! Geographically, PK's most productive land is in a giant floodplain. The Indus is the lifeblood of PK, diverting it's headwaters would literally turn PK into a giant dust bowl. The devastation, behind a diverted Indus, would be biblical. Like, old testament wrath of god stuff.



That is some Kit Carson scorched earth Indian War kind of stuff


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 20, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> If we pull out and sent PK into an economic tailspin it will probably be worse for us in the long run.  Islamists, China, and Iran would step into the gap, there would be millions more displaced people and refugees, and PK would probably start another war with India in order to hold onto power.
> 
> I would be quite happy to completely abandon both AF and PK if the end result want probably going to worse for us in the long run.
> 
> That’s part of what makes this such a wicked problem.



Hmmmm, good point. Every action has an equal and opposite reaction...


----------



## Gunz (Oct 20, 2018)

PK and the PRC are comfortably in bed together with economic, military and nuclear aid. It's cozy as hell and meant to counter the US-India relationship. It also gives the PRC an inroad into the Muslim world.

As @Marauder06 has pointed out, the PRC is more than prepared to fill any vacuum in Pakistan. That would include, I think, @R.Caerbannog, any agricultural support withdrawn from the US.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Oct 20, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> PK and the PRC are comfortably in bed together with economic, military and nuclear aid. It's cozy as hell and meant to counter the US-India relationship. It also gives the PRC an inroad into the Muslim world.
> 
> As @Marauder06 has pointed out, the PRC is more than prepared to fill any vacuum in Pakistan. That would include, I think, @R.Caerbannog, any agricultural support withdrawn from the US.


I agree that to a certain extent the PRC will try to fill the ag-tech void in PK when we leave. Problem for the Chinese, is that they're having issues with their own agricultural technologies. They can't even grow enough rice for themselves and that's with the PRC using GMO's developed in-house or stolen. 

Western agricultural innovation and technology have been lynchpins in keeping PK's and the PRC's agricultural machine running. If PK and China lose our ag tech and expertise, they won't be able to function like they have. Hence why the elite, of both shitholes, send their spoiled brats to western colleges and universities.


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## Florida173 (Oct 20, 2018)

PRC has their own Muslims.. Not doing all that well


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## AWP (Oct 20, 2018)

China's interest in PK is nothing more than a hedge against a strengthened India; Muslims don't factor into the relationship. China needs to offset its regional economic and military adversary. PK can use China to ward off any threat from India or the US. A solid strategic move by both countries.

As much as I'd like to see PK eradicated from the map and confined to the dustbin of history, it isn't happening.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 20, 2018)

Fuck Pakistan.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 21, 2018)

Paki made bullets and knives... Y'all fuckers


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## bananarepublic (Oct 25, 2018)

this thread is fun to read
all the hate 
lol


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 25, 2018)

bananarepublic said:


> this thread is fun to read
> all the hate
> lol


It would be more fun to read your intro thread.  
Please make that your next post.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 26, 2018)

bananarepublic said:


> this thread is fun to read
> all the hate
> lol



@bananarepublic , welcome to the site.  All new users are required to make an introduction post.  Below is a link to that forum.  You can use some other members' examples to see how that post should be crafted.

Introductions


----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 31, 2018)

A Christian woman in Pakistan who was sentenced to death for "blasphemy" is going free after 8 years in solitary:

Asia Bibi: Pakistan court overturns blasphemy death sentence


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## Gunz (Oct 31, 2018)

From ^^^^^

*"Christian farm labourer Bibi, a 47-year-old mother of five, was sentenced to hang for blasphemy in 2010. She had angered fellow Muslim farm workers by taking a sip of water from a cup she had fetched for them on a hot day. When they demanded she convert to Islam, she refused, prompting a mob to later allege that she had insulted the prophet Mohammed."*



Islam. Such a tolerant and peace-loving religion. And Pakistan, an enlightened democracy if ever there was one. She only had to sit on death row nine years. Piece of cake.

We need to keep fighting radical Islam. If it takes 500 years, we need to eradicate these medieval fucks from the planet.


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## Devildoc (Oct 31, 2018)

Pakistan...Beirut...Tehran....once upon a time beautiful, thriving, pro-west places...safe for tourists and locals regardless of religion.  Not no more.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 5, 2018)

RIP Major Brent Taylor, also a Mayor from Utah.  Graduate of Chandler High School here in Arizona. KIA in a Green on Blue: https://www.cnn.com/2018/11/05/opinions/what-slain-utah-mayor-wanted-for-america-lemmon/index.html


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## PDL (Dec 21, 2018)

DasBoot said:


> And the one thing I liked about this administration is gone... good on General Mattis GTFO while he can. POTUS is really showing his arrogance... major foreign policy decisions that play right to our enemies goals, announced on Twitter, in opposition to EVERYTHING EVERYONE IN THE KNOW has said? Fucking. Clown. Shoes.
> 
> And if POTUS fucks up our deployments he’s going to lose a lot of fucking support in the Regiment...


"Everyone in the know" has been running these endless wars in the middle East for 30 years and have gotten nowhere.  Maybe it is time for a different approach i.e. pullout, and let the chips fall where they may.


----------



## amlove21 (Dec 21, 2018)

PDL said:


> "Everyone in the know" has been running these endless wars in the middle East for 30 years and have gotten nowhere.  Maybe it is time for a different approach i.e. pullout, and let the chips fall where they may.


Can you expand on what you mean by that? How does that affect our competitors (Russia, Iran, Saudi Arabia) in those regions? Does isolationism really work?


----------



## Topkick (Dec 21, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Does isolationism really work?


Have we ever really tried it?  It hasn't worked with undeveloped or smaller countries, those which can be bullied,  but we are a power capable of defending ourselves. We would probably be tested again (See Pearl Harbor) but, imo, we are sure to be tested on our current policy. A lot people hate us because we are not isolated enough.

Edited to add: l am not advocating anything. I don't pretend to have an answer. It's very complicated. What concerns me most is that there is no endstate. Do we pull out or should containment be our plan until forever?


----------



## DasBoot (Dec 21, 2018)

PDL said:


> "Everyone in the know" has been running these endless wars in the middle East for 30 years and have gotten nowhere.  Maybe it is time for a different approach i.e. pullout, and let the chips fall where they may.


So we pull out, and then Russia stops dropping WMDs on civilians on behalf of Asad? ISIS-K will definitely leave Afghanistan if we do... and the Chinese won’t begin to move in and rape the resources of AFG... its a complicated world, and the people “in the know” understand that, unlike Cadet BoneSpur.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 21, 2018)

If you don't think the POTUS has an understanding of the complicated world, the engagement that he's executed in certain places has done something in SK/NK that no one else has been able to do.

I'd certainly like to see the Chinese try that, the amount of blood and treasure they'd need to invest in Afghanistan to extract a single ounce of precious metals is pretty high.  It would look similar to an invasion than anything else, eventually they would face an insurgency that would bleed them out over time.  It's much cheaper for China to work with their current African partners than to touch Afghanistan.  It's time we've left, 17 years and still the same shithole.  

In Syria we should have never entered the fray, but it's been 6 years of various involvement.  Think about that:
Afghanistan-17 yrs
Iraq-15 yrs
Syria-6 yrs

At some point we have to bring it all home and press the reset button.


----------



## DasBoot (Dec 21, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> If you don't think the POTUS has an understanding of the complicated world, the engagement that he's executed in certain places has done something in SK/NK that no one else has been able to do.
> 
> I'd certainly like to see the Chinese try that, the amount of blood and treasure they'd need to invest in Afghanistan to extract a single ounce of precious metals is pretty high.  It would look similar to an invasion than anything else, eventually they would face an insurgency that would bleed them out over time.  It's much cheaper for China to work with their current African partners than to touch Afghanistan.  It's time we've left, 17 years and still the same shithole.
> 
> ...


I don’t think you understand the strategic importance of AFG. We border (surround) Iran when we have troops in AFG and IZ. We have a land border with China and all the Central Asian states that have an ever growing ISIS threat within them. And we have a means of going into Pakistan when needed. Add to that the fact we are keeping that region from becoming a pre-2001 free for all of ISIS and TB training camps, it’s too important to just turn and run.

The more important issue for me is the number of people we have lost to only go and turn tale and run- yet again. I’m for not getting involved in shit we don’t need to, but once we commit we need to stay committed. I’m tired of us doing the same play book since Vietnam.

If you don’t think China will work a deal with the TB (who they already have supplied with their old weapons), and whatever remnants of the AFG gov will be standing, then you really don’t know how that place works. They won’t invade, they’ll use their industry and state run enterprises do exactly what they’ve done in Africa.

In regards to Syria, we are essentially letting Russia, Turkey and Iran run wild when we leave. The Kurds, our only worthwhile allies outside of Israel, will be absolutely murdered by Erdogan and his regime. Russia will maintain their ability to stage from Syria and Iran will have a pathway to the Med to continue actions against Israel.

These actions help everyone but our allies. POTUS only seems to do what makes Putin pleased, the rest be damned.

Side note- if we are worrying about retention, get ready for a new nightmare scenario for every re-up NCO in SOCOM. No one wants to be in a peace time military. America may be tired of wars, but the military isn’t. The people doing the fighting don’t want this.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 21, 2018)

DasBoot said:


> I don’t think you understand the strategic importance of AFG. We border (surround) Iran when we have troops in AFG and IZ. We have a land border with China and all the Central Asian states that have an ever growing ISIS threat within them. And we have a means of going into Pakistan when needed. Add to that the fact we are keeping that region from becoming a pre-2001 free for all of ISIS and TB training camps, it’s too important to just turn and run.
> 
> The more important issue for me is the number of people we have lost to only go and turn tale and run- yet again. I’m for not getting involved in shit we don’t need to, but once we commit we need to stay committed. I’m tired of us doing the same play book since Vietnam.
> 
> ...



I guess we have different world views and how we should invest our blood and treasure.  Overall though, our "grand strategy" has been all fucked up since Bush left office.  Under the Bush Administration, it was pretty clear where we were trying to swing our dick and for what aims.  Under the Obama administration I had no idea what we were doing and what our aims were other than apologizing for everything...not a whole lot "support" there.

On your last note, this is why we definitely have civilian control of the military..."let's just keep fighting, that's why we signed up".  It's not our choice, yes we signed up to do a certain thing, but sometimes it's time to come home and reset the whole thing.  

Also...aren't you about to kick out a bunch of people?


----------



## AWP (Dec 21, 2018)

DasBoot said:


> Post



This is pure gold. Here's your $200 and please pass Go with my compliments, sir.


----------



## Topkick (Dec 21, 2018)

DasBoot said:


> more important issue for me is the number of people we have lost to only go and turn tale and run- yet again. I’m for not getting involved in shit we don’t need to, but once we commit we need to stay committed. I’m tired of us doing the same play book since Vietnam.



I agree. The tough question is... without an endstate to a perpetual war, how do we ensure that they didn't give their lives in vain? How many more fall before we pull out because we still have not met an objective we never really had? You can't kill the ideology.


----------



## DasBoot (Dec 21, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> I guess we have different world views and how we should invest our blood and treasure.  Overall though, our "grand strategy" has been all fucked up since Bush left office.  Under the Bush Administration, it was pretty clear where we were trying to swing our dick and for what aims.  Under the Obama administration I had no idea what we were doing and what our aims were other than apologizing for everything...not a whole lot "support" there.
> 
> On your last note, this is why we definitely have civilian control of the military..."let's just keep fighting, that's why we signed up".  It's not our choice, yes we signed up to do a certain thing, but sometimes it's time to come home and reset the whole thing.
> 
> Also...aren't you about to kick out a bunch of people?


Yeah... good guys, with lots of deployments and experience, who will we need when the next war (with a near peer) kicks off... as far as what we signed up to do, I’d say we had very different motivations.  I guess some of us want to go to war and some of us just wanted free college. To each their own.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 21, 2018)

DasBoot said:


> Yeah... good guys, with lots of deployments and experience, who will we need when the next war (with a near peer) kicks off... as far as what we signed up to do, I’d say we had very different motivations.  I guess some of us want to go to war and some of us just wanted free college. To each their own.


My motivations were very simple: service and duty.  Where and when...Uncle Sam said.

I look at Afghanistan through a long lens of history.  I was at the ESM-St Cyr Irregular Warfare Conference in 2009, a British Armored unit had just returned and were going over their experiences during deployment, following their presentation a British Brigadier had a presentation through VTC and stated that everyone in the coalition knew it was a 20 year project.  Have we executed that?  Just four months late Obama stated what we were about to do when he made his first major FP speech at West Point...when he said we'd surge, it almost looked like Ike Hall was gonna erupt in cheers...and then he said we'd begin our withdrawal in less than 18 months.

My views have shifted over time on the hows and whats and where were the mistakes.  But knowing Afghanistan's history and ours, the occupation model we used was incorrect.  The occupation models for us that have worked were Post-WWII.  We didn't execute those.  Basically military government for roughly ten years, rebuild infrastructure and slowly cede Democratric control back to the Afghans (Germans/Japanese at that time), large and permanent military presence for 50 years.  The difference between Afghanistan and those two places were the literacy rates and histories of centralized government.


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## Topkick (Dec 21, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> think it's a bit dramatic to invoke people that died in the military at a time like this (don't worry the president already did it) and take the "how many more people have to die for this effort/those lost would approve of what I am doing" road. I personally resist that.


I'm not taking any road. My question was more about achieving an objective. I don't think we should send/leave troops in without an endstate. So, I'll just have to disagree with you on that.


----------



## amlove21 (Dec 21, 2018)

Topkick said:


> I'm not taking any road. My question was more about achieving an objective. I don't think we should send/leave troops in without an endstate. So, I'll just have to disagree with you on that.





Topkick said:


> I agree. The tough question is... without an endstate to a perpetual war, how do we ensure that they didn't give their lives in vain? How many more fall before we pull out because we still have not met an objective we never really had? You can't kill the ideology.


That's what I thought this comment looked like.

The objective is, "geographic domination of a problem area and crippling/severely damaging a non-state actor to prevent them from being able to promote or enact terrorist acts on the US and it's allies."

I think framing the objective or endstate differently offers a different perspective. "Support and defend the constitution of the United States, against all enemies, foreign and domestic" is a clear mission statement with no "endstate", right? No clear "mission accomplished" there. But we can expend effort towards that mission with resolve for as long as we need to. Just my opinion.


----------



## GOTWA (Dec 21, 2018)

DasBoot said:


> If you don’t think China will work a deal with the TB (who they already have supplied with their old weapons), and whatever remnants of the AFG gov will be standing, then you really don’t know how that place works. They won’t invade, they’ll use their industry and state run enterprises do exactly what they’ve done in Africa.



I agree with everything you just said, but I wanted to highlight this because of its importance.  The return China will receive will pay dividends over what it may cost, and when you consider slave labor, it doesn't cost a whole hell of a lot.  They're in it for the long game, and we keep showing the world we can't even finish a game of Monopoly.  

I went to an NCOPD awhile back and the discussion was about "hostility" in the workplace and how to handle it.  And I'm talking about reports of people just saying profane words like 'shit' during the course of conversation or a briefing.  Others responded they would shoot off an email/talk to the individual to let them know to be more courteous.  I felt it was my duty during this NCOPD to remind everyone in the room, even the E9 that was leading it, that the military exists to kill people and to cause chaos and destruction wherever we go, and we're worried about people being offended when someone cusses?  Sorry.  It was the last NCOPD I was invited to while in Djibouti.  If people are tired of deploying, then the military isn't the place for them.  People serve the military, the military doesn't serve them.  Yes, you can get some pretty sweet tools given to you that may pay off in ones career, but that's not what it's about.  If you can't handle the war machine, someone will be willing to step up and take your place.


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## GOTWA (Dec 21, 2018)

U.S. to Withdraw About 7,000 Troops From Afghanistan, Officials Say

There's talk about pulling 7000 troops out from Afghanistan.  Nothing like a huge morale boost for the bad guys when they see their ideology is stronger than their enemies willingness to fight it.


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## Topkick (Dec 21, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> That's what I thought this comment looked like.


Take it how you wish. I don't think it's "dramatic" to ask what the objectives are and I also don't think it's dramatic to analyze risk vs reward, which was my intent with that comment. Could be my comment wasn't clearly written, though.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 21, 2018)

GOTWA said:


> U.S. to Withdraw About 7,000 Troops From Afghanistan, Officials Say
> 
> There's talk about pulling 7000 troops out from Afghanistan.  Nothing like a huge morale boost for the bad guys when they see their ideology is stronger than their enemies willingness to fight it.


Eh? We've been in peace talks for months.

September: Afghan Taliban prepare for new peace talks with U.S.: sources | Reuters

October: U.S. Officials Meet With Taliban Again as Trump Pushes Afghan Peace Process

This Month: U.S. Envoy, Taliban Discuss Peace, While Afghan Government Is Sidelined

The Afghan Government had been trying to get peace talks going at the beginning of year:

February: Ghani Makes Taliban An Offer To Join Peace Process | TOLOnews

And Mid-Year, July: Taliban reject Afghan government's offer of peace talks

This is more or less a continuation of policy that also started during the Obama administration.  It is what it is.  Definitely not the model I would have chosen of course.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 21, 2018)

Yeah, fuck Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria. Time to take our ball and go home. WW3 is upon us and we need to quit fucking around with booger eaters and get back to maneuver warfare. I'm sure SOF is going to be forward deployed all over the world, well, because that is their job. But we really need to get our heavy divisions trained up and ready, because, like it or not, we are in our second cold war,  and the way the world is acting, it won't be very long before SHTF. 

Sucks Mattis is resigning, he is a solid warrior and probably the best secdef we have seen, if not the best ever. But it ain't the end of the world, we all love him, but secdef changes ain't nothing new.

Trump, well he is taking an asskickin the past two weeks, some deserved and some not. I did see they gave him 5 billion for his wall, I guess that's a win, if you are one of the people who want a wall. 

Anyway, no big deal, all of you quit getting your panties all twisted, life goes on. Well until our next economic recession, which is probably right around the corner...just saying.


----------



## DC (Dec 21, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Yeah, fuck Afghanistan, Iraq and Syria. Time to take our ball and go home. WW3 is upon us and we need to quit fucking around with booger eaters and get back to maneuver warfare. I'm sure SOF is going to be forward deployed all over the world, well, because that is their job. But we really need to get our heavy divisions trained up and ready, because, like it or not, we are in our second cold war,  and the way the world is acting, it won't be very long before SHTF.
> 
> Sucks Mattis is resigning, he is a solid warrior and probably the best secdef we have seen, if not the best ever. But it ain't the end of the world, we all love him, but secdef changes ain't nothing new.
> 
> ...


WORD...


----------



## AWP (Dec 21, 2018)

Going back a couple of pages, Chinese involvement in Afghanistan has gone on for years. Not only have they supplied, via our friends in Pakistan, the weapons used to kill and maim coalition troops, they also own the rights to some massive mineral deposits and as an added bonus are building Afghanistan's infrastructure.

We haven't fought one war for 17 years, we've 17 year-long wars. Each rotation is a new disjointed beginning. Can't make those OER's shine without changes and new metrics!!!!!!!

Afghanistan was winnable, once upon a time, but that ship has sailed. My definition of winning isn't a lack of ISIL-K or Taliban as much as it is a stable Afghan gov't and self-sustaining military. AFG doesn't need democracy, that's an absolutely stupid notion, but it needs Walmart. Car dealerships, Geek Squads and Apple Genius Bars for the dirt farmers to bring their PC's and overpriced Apple stuff. A highway, a real highway and not the Ring Road. Clean water, holy shit what clean water could do for the country. Electricity. It needs all of this with AFG dollars, not international aid. We talk about "welfare queens" in the US, but AFG is one of the largest in the world.

None of that will happen though, not through the US and Eirope. China will fill the void just enough to profit, but not enough to make the changes required.

17 bloody years, a generation of Afghans, we've had time to change their perception of the US for the better. Instead, we've aliented them, even angered them. We followed the Vietnam model to a T militarily, diplomatically, economically, and socially.

We blew our load in AFG. We need to own the "L" on the scoreboard. Time to come home, rearm, and get ready for other fights. We failed, it is time we admit that. 

Or, we start doing things better and spend another 15 years in the country doing it right. That will never happen, don't pull out 7,000, pull everyone. SELECT * FROM Afghanistan


----------



## PDL (Dec 22, 2018)

A good time to end the Afghanistan mission would have been after Osama was killed.  That could have been mission accomplished.


Edit: another thought I had regarding the "but what if Russia takes over control in Syria" -- doesn't it seem quite cunning to hang that albatross around Russia's neck?


----------



## amlove21 (Dec 22, 2018)

PDL said:


> A good time to end the Afghanistan mission would have been after Osama was killed.  That could have been mission accomplished.
> 
> 
> Edit: another thought I had regarding the "but what if Russia takes over control in Syria" -- doesn't it seem quite cunning to hang that albatross around Russia's neck?


Please see @DasBoot ’s post about the strategic value of Afghanistan. 

So, follow me here- what if Russia actually is a bad actor, and it’s not hanging an albatross on their neck? And leaving them to their own devices without an adult in the room in thatbidea is a bad idea?


----------



## SaintKP (Dec 22, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> So, follow me here- what if Russia actually is a bad actor, and it’s not hanging an albatross on their neck? And leaving them to their own devices without an adult in the room in thatbidea is a bad idea?




One could say that Russia ain't Putin around in Syria.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 22, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Please see @DasBoot ’s post about the strategic value of Afghanistan.
> 
> So, follow me here- what if Russia actually is a bad actor, and it’s not hanging an albatross on their neck? And leaving them to their own devices without an adult in the room in thatbidea is a bad idea?


Russia was in Syria before we tried to over through the government, and only allowed Iran in when they needed cannon fodder.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 22, 2018)

Yeah Russia has had long relationship with Syira. I have zero problems letting them deal with that mess. I am more concerned with Europe and that powder keg going off. 

Let SOF and the drone pilots deal with the Middle East...


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 22, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Please see @DasBoot ’s post about the strategic value of Afghanistan.
> 
> So, follow me here- what if Russia actually is a bad actor, and it’s not hanging an albatross on their neck? And leaving them to their own devices without an adult in the room in that idea is a bad idea?


Here's the thing, we discussed this at length in the ISIS thread.  We attempted regime change through rebel groups (FSA et al), we screwed the pooch with that dumb decision.  I stated at the time as IS was gaining more ground and every time we armed and trained a group they either got killed or joined up with IS that we should have just thrown our weight to Assad with conditions.  The reality of Syria before IS gained a massive amount of territory is that Christians lived in peace with their Muslim neighbors.  Women attended University.

Yes, the Assad regime and his father's regime have been brutal democratically elected dictators.  His father's regime also partially linked to the Beirut bombing.  Yet, if we'd helped him stamp out IS...which was a threat to us wouldn't that make him less hard-lined and would shift his alignment?  This is all real-politik and requires us to be practical.  Did we for one second think that the Russians wouldn't deploy forward thousands of troops the moment we started supporting rebels in this conflict. Syria was their ally in the Mediterranean, they have a freakin' Naval Base there. We've been on the side of the Arab Spring that has only further radicalized the world. 

The Russians and the Chinese are our adversaries in this multi-polar world...but we've already left Afghanistan comparatively.  Roughly 21k coalition troops, 14k of which are USFOR. Trump is just continuing the policies of Obama in this regard.  To actually hold Afghanistan requires much more than 14k Troops on our part.

As @AWP stated about Afghanistan, it's time we own the "L."


----------



## PDL (Dec 22, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Please see @DasBoot ’s post about the strategic value of Afghanistan.
> 
> So, follow me here- what if Russia actually is a bad actor, and it’s not hanging an albatross on their neck? And leaving them to their own devices without an adult in the room in thatbidea is a bad idea?


The strategic value of Afghanistan and Syria I believe depends on your view of the role of the military. Is it to maintain a worldwide empire and power projection capability, or is it for defense of the homeland?


----------



## amlove21 (Dec 22, 2018)

PDL said:


> The strategic value of Afghanistan and Syria I believe depends on your view of the role of the military. Is it to maintain a worldwide empire and power projection capability, or is it for defense of the homeland?


Yes.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 22, 2018)

There is nothing to gain by staying in Afghanistan in any major capacity. FID mission? Sure okay, we take our air assists out of theater and Taliban will swoop in and retake everything. So unless we want to be there for fucking ever, we should probably find a political solution to that mess,  because killing them all hasn't really worked out thus far. 

I said it years ago, we need to move a hit and run strategy with these shit-holes. Go in fuck them up,  and leave them in shambles,  let the next group of warlords take control,  they do something we don't like, we fuck them up again, and let the warlords try again. 

The nation building we've been trying ain't working, and going as far back as Vietnam, the same shit happens every time, we withdraw our forces and the shit explodes. How much more money and blood are we going to sacrifice for a failed strategy that hasn't been successful in the 60+ years they have been trying to get to work. 

I'm not saying we should become isolationist or that we shouldn't be engaged in taking out terror networks, keep the likes of ISIS on the run,  etc. I'm just saying we don't have to take over a whole country to do that. 

As for the "why" we are getting out of Syria,  Turkey is about to go after the Kurds in northern Syria. We have been supporting the Kurds and Turkey don't like that, for some damn reason they are being offered up, but it will get silly real quick if some of our people get blown up helping the Kurds as Turkey decides get crazy. Especially them being a card carrying NATO member,  especially with the Europe issues going on...

It's going to be interesting to see what happens.


----------



## DocCallahan (Dec 22, 2018)

@Diamondback 2/2 

Turkey’s already stated they don’t have any qualms with hitting our guys working with Kurds. 

It will be interesting to see what unfolds.


----------



## AWP (Dec 22, 2018)

4AM and sober, let's burn up this keyboard.

AFG has held some strategic importance for the last 3000 years and its importance to the US is just a continuation of that tale; new maps, new problems, same Afghanistan. We shouldn't leave, but we have to leave. We should stay, but we can't. 

I understand the strategic necessity of staying, but we just can't. The ship has sailed. Go back through my posts over the years and I was maybe one of the last members to admit the war was lost, that we should leave, etc. I went from being one of AFG's biggest cheerleaders to advocating that we put everyone on a plane. Now.

We failed. Keeping people in country won't change the last 17 years and we lack the humility to accept that WE failed. Every nation, not just the US. We failed. We're not turning the country around, we aren't fixing anything, we had 17 years to do the right thing and we did not. We refuse to take a hard look at ourselves and admit that we didn't know what we were doing, our tactics sucked, we didn't have a plan, we changed our minds, etc.

Until we are willing accept our failure and learn from it, we need to go home. We're doing nothing but spending blood and treasure to no discernible end. I firmly believe we should stay, but only if we're willing to learn from 17 years of mistakes. We won't learn, so we need to leave.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Dec 23, 2018)

Agree with sober @AWP

I want us to stay in AFG, I do, This area is so strategically important we SHOULD stay....However We have sucked at ROE since 2003 and don't have balls so we NEED to leave until we can MAN up!!!!!

My opinion and only my opinion...I haven't been there in a minute!!!!!!


----------



## Topkick (Dec 23, 2018)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Agree with sober @AWP
> 
> I want us to stay in AFG, I do, This area is so strategically important we SHOULD stay....However We have sucked at ROE since 2003 and don't have balls so we NEED to leave until we can MAN up!!!!!
> 
> My opinion and only my opinion...I haven't been there in a minute!!!!!!


We actually fought wars before the media was allowed to dictate our ROE.


----------



## RackMaster (Dec 24, 2018)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Agree with sober @AWP
> 
> I want us to stay in AFG, I do, This area is so strategically important we SHOULD stay....However We have sucked at ROE since 2003 and don't have balls so we NEED to leave until we can MAN up!!!!!
> 
> My opinion and only my opinion...I haven't been there in a minute!!!!!!



As soon as ISAF was in theatre.  Letting allies that wouldn't let their troops leave the wire, influence the mission and ROE.  They might as well went home.


----------



## Kraut783 (Dec 24, 2018)

So true Rack!

You know the campaign is on the wrong course when you return to Bagram at the end of '02 and the gate is being manned by MP's instead of Infantry and the MP says "be sure and use your seatbelt when on base"  wtf?!?!


----------



## racing_kitty (Dec 24, 2018)

ISAF = I Suck At Fighting


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 24, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> So true Rack!
> 
> You know the campaign is on the wrong course when you return to Bagram at the end of '02 and the gate is being manned by MP's instead of Infantry and the MP says "be sure and use your seatbelt when on base"  wtf?!?!




@Kraut783 Dear lord...how times have changed.

However, I do remember coming out of the field after living in a HMMV for 6 months and a senior NCO was ripping us in the chow line for gnarley boots and such. I was vehicle security/60 gunner, so my BDUs all had the ass worn through to the first pant layer and slightly beyond from swinging on the turret sling. REMF-itis can strike anywhere, almost every politician has it. It got my friend killed on March 18th 1991 and I think about the beauraucy that led to his death everyday.

An example of how times have changed...look up *Operation ‘Bulldozer’,* we buried the enemy alive in a trench complex near the Kuwaiti oil fields. When the OIC was questioned he said “ it would’ve been a lot worse if I had my men clean out the trenches with bayonets.”

I was on a 3 man patrol that went through the area about a week or so later. The desert dogs and wind had already gotten to what looked like a busted up picket fence sticking out of the sand. It was arms, legs, hands and faces. They were the enemy and treated the Kuwaiti citizens very poorly, so we didn’t bat an eye.

I thank my lucky stars that Gen. Schwarzkopf (R.I.P) kept the politicians out of my war, it could have been much more challenging for everyone. In 2003 I was a civilian when we went back to that part of the world, and this is where I began realizing a long march to my present condition which is a nice PTS diagnosis. I didn’t want those wars to end in any other way except how it ended for us back in 91. 

Sometimes I feel that I should’ve just said fuck it and re-enlisted for OEF and OIF, who knows.


----------



## Topkick (Dec 24, 2018)

MikeDelta said:


> thank my lucky stars that Gen. Schwarzkopf (R.I.P) kept the politicians out of my war


But the media was there and got in our shit...i.e. using the Highway of Death (their words) to try and portray the US military as evil. These actions greatly influence future ROE.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 24, 2018)

Topkick said:


> But the media was there and got in our shit...i.e. using the Highway of Death (their words) to try and portray the US military as evil. These actions greatly influence future ROE.




@Topkick Yeah, the media did their best to stir the shit. But, the war ended shortly after that engagement. More vehicles died than Iraqi soldiers on HWY 60.

But now in Asscrackistan the ROE, and back to back deployments are rough, to say the least.


----------



## Topkick (Dec 24, 2018)

MikeDelta said:


> More vehicles died than Iraqi soldiers.


Very true. It was sensationalized by taking photos of the few dead soldiers from different angles and posting them everywhere for everyone to see. 

I understand the importance of the media. It can be used to garner support for the troops and the mission, but its usually used to "break the big story." Regardless of the great work we all do, a few pics of a couple of John J Rambo's being douchebags is what usually dominates the news and it has a huge effect on our ROE. Its what makes us play nice.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 24, 2018)

Topkick said:


> Very true. It was sensationalized by taking photos of the few dead soldiers from different angles and posting them everywhere for everyone to see. I understand the importance of the media. It can be used to garner support for the troops and the mission, but its usually used to "break the big story." Regardless of the great work we all do, a few pics of a couple of John J Rambo's being douchebags is what usually dominates the news and it has a huge effect on our ROE. Its what makes us play nice.



@Topkick Sad but true. We had a very strict platoon level policy on that shit.

Back to Afghanistan and Pakistan though. I have mixed feelings about the most recent withdrawal, mainly because I’m not able to, or privy to see the whole picture. It’s also distorted now that the media has spun Gen. Mattis’s resignation. @AWP has shed some light regarding our losing momentum and winning would mean committing to an invasion of a nuclear power i.e. Pakistan in order to properly end it.

I understand the tactical advantage of Afghanistan and IMHO as a superpower we can stay there is long as we want. However, interests are changing and we are running out of cards to play when it comes to justifying our stay.


----------



## Gordus (Dec 24, 2018)

DocCallahan said:


> @Diamondback 2/2
> 
> Turkey’s already stated they don’t have any qualms with hitting our guys working with Kurds.



Turks always talk the talk.

Their sassy Erdogan has threatened to flood Germany with IDPs over political disputes and all his reckless childish rhetoric has achieved thus far is his involuntary but inevitable visit to Berlin and virtualy pleading for mercy, aid and continuation of trade. Now his country is facing bankruptcy.


----------



## RackMaster (Dec 24, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> So true Rack!
> 
> You know the campaign is on the wrong course when you return to Bagram at the end of '02 and the gate is being manned by MP's instead of Infantry and the MP says "be sure and use your seatbelt when on base"  wtf?!?!



Our Meatheads were doing speed traps on JBad Road in Kabul in late 03.  Also giving "tickets" through our CoC for "aggressive" driving, like forcing our way through roundabouts and the sea of people downtown.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 24, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> Our Meatheads were doing speed traps on JBad Road in Kabul in late 03.  Also giving "tickets" through our CoC for "aggressive" driving, like forcing our way through roundabouts and the sea of people downtown.



@RackMaster That’s terrible. The smart play is to keep MSRs and convoys safe. Battlefield Circulation Control & MSR/Convoy Security. And before that Hasty Route Reconnaissance, way ahead of main elements, because that is an MPs duty in the field. Maybe we wouldn’t have so many IEDs planted if we actually utilized our MPs (Multi-Purpose) to do their field mission instead of writing fucking tickets!  You know how many tickets I wrote in nine months? Zero...

Instead, we watched the MSRs like hawks 24/7 from a discreet distance, used nightvision and patrolled relentlessly. They couldn’t even get a roadside grenade with the pin out wedged against a tire rim by us. However, we still called MEDVAC every goddamn day because some civilian or soldiers from multiple armies bought the farm in all sorts of insane crashes...Everyday... but nobody died because we weren’t doing the appropriate job and instead writing tickets.

This is what happens when things like ROE get cluster fucked and wars get protracted far more than need be...You get fucking traffic tickets.

Sorry, but hearing this really chaps my ass.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 24, 2018)

Topkick said:


> Very true. It was sensationalized by taking photos of the few dead soldiers from different angles and posting them everywhere for everyone to see.
> 
> I understand the importance of the media. It can be used to garner support for the troops and the mission, but its usually used to "break the big story." Regardless of the great work we all do, a few pics of a couple of John J Rambo's being douchebags is what usually dominates the news and it has a huge effect on our ROE. Its what makes us play nice.



They couldn’t take pictures of the 20,000 plus killed in 45 days. Because the flyboys blew them into a fine fucking mist


----------



## AWP (Dec 24, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> So true Rack!
> 
> You know the campaign is on the wrong course when you return to Bagram at the end of '02 and the gate is being manned by MP's instead of Infantry and the MP says "be sure and use your seatbelt when on base"  wtf?!?!



By '04 they would stand at the four corners on BAF, calling out people for uniform infractions during morning PT. '05, they began enforcing tickets for a failure to wear full PPE when operating a Gator.



racing_kitty said:


> ISAF = I Suck At Fighting



I Saw Americans Fighting.  The Commonwealth proved to be the exception, but the others...


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 24, 2018)

AWP said:


> By '04 they would stand at the four corners on BAF, calling out people for uniform infractions during morning PT. '05, they began enforcing tickets for a failure to wear full PPE when operating a Gator.
> 
> 
> 
> I Saw Americans Fighting.  The Commonwealth proved to be the exception, but the others...



@AWP This is blowing my mind...unreal. The brass had to put these guys up to this. No slight against officers, it just smacks of political dog and pony bullshit rolling downhill. “We’re rebuilding a country” so let’s make believe that if we have MPs doing garrison shit in a combat AO everyone will feel like it’s Mayberry...somebody gimme a drink. Please!

@racing_kitty Thats funny. Didn’t know that was the field expedient acroymn for ISAF. Every war has its lackluster troops, ours was the Kuwaiti Army, they weren’t half assed, they were quarterassed!


----------



## AWP (Dec 24, 2018)

MikeDelta said:


> @AWP This is blowing my mind...unreal. The brass had to put these guys up to this. No slight against officers, it just smacks of political dog and pony bullshit rolling downhill. “We’re rebuilding a country” so let’s make believe that if we have MPs doing garrison shit in a combat AO everyone will feel like it’s Mayberry...somebody gimme a drink. Please!



While I don't think this in indicative of the MP corps as a whole, a funny vignette:

'Bout 2014, I see an MP's Hilux pulled over by a fence on the back side of Bagram. Blue lights flashing, this is nothing new for that section or time of the morning (0130L). I'd see them inspecting the fence or something, no biggie. That morning, I saw one soldier standing in the middle of the road, Green Beans cup in hand, kicking at the dirt. I slowed down, but that was it. As I passed him he started frantically waving me down. I stopped. My rough recollection of the exchange:
"Didn't you see me?"
Yes, I did.
"Why didn't you stop?"
I have to stop for a soldier standing in the road, coffee cup in hand, no flashlight, no vest, ignoring the approaching vehicle, no weapon, nothing?
"You didn't see the lights?"
I did, but this didn't look like any checkpoint Ive ever seen.
"Sir, you need to respect the blue lights."

"Respect the blue lights"....Toolbag.


----------



## Totentanz (Dec 24, 2018)

AWP said:


> While I don't think this in indicative of the MP corps as a whole, a funny vignette:
> 
> 'Bout 2014, I see an MP's Hilux pulled over by a fence on the back side of Bagram. Blue lights flashing, this is nothing new for that section or time of the morning (0130L). I'd see them inspecting the fence or something, no biggie. That morning, I saw one soldier standing in the middle of the road, Green Beans cup in hand, kicking at the dirt. I slowed down, but that was it. As I passed him he started frantically waving me down. I stopped. My rough recollection of the exchange:
> "Didn't you see me?"
> ...



That's a K-Mart ad campaign not a unit motto.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 24, 2018)

AWP said:


> While I don't think this in indicative of the MP corps as a whole, a funny vignette:
> 
> 'Bout 2014, I see an MP's Hilux pulled over by a fence on the back side of Bagram. Blue lights flashing, this is nothing new for that section or time of the morning (0130L). I'd see them inspecting the fence or something, no biggie. That morning, I saw one soldier standing in the middle of the road, Green Beans cup in hand, kicking at the dirt. I slowed down, but that was it. As I passed him he started frantically waving me down. I stopped. My rough recollection of the exchange:
> "Didn't you see me?"
> ...



@AWP Thats a goodie!

Here’s one for you...

After months in the field some of us got 3 days leave on “The Love Boat.” It was a ship that was docked for all military on leave, basically an FTX in seeking to destroy our livers. Anyway, after one very drunken evening on this tub I stumbled across an MP who was an LT. I was hungry and had a chip on my shoulder about this LT MP guarding a cruise freakin ship, knowing full well that I was headed back to, a GP medium tent with a sand floor.

ME: “LT, would it be too much trouble if you opened up the galley so me ‘n’ my battle buddy can make a sandwich?” I knew he wouldn’t likely oblige, but I didn’t expect the answer I got.

LT: (in a very condescending voice) “If you haven’t noticed soldier, dining facility hours are over”

...Now I’m hungry, drunk, throughly pissed off and I was short.

ME (sarcastic): “Ok LT, thanks for looking out for your troops, why don’t you come out to the field with us, we’ll show you the ropes.”

He didn’t look so smug after that and nothing came of it. We stumbled off safe in knowing the worst that could happen is we’d be sent to SWA, oh shit, we’re already here.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 24, 2018)

AWP said:


> "Respect the blue lights"



@AWP That MP probably came home and his wife fragged him in his sleep


----------



## AWP (Dec 25, 2018)

MikeDelta said:


> @AWP That MP probably came home and his wife fragged him in his sleep



Little victories.


----------



## amlove21 (Dec 25, 2018)

So, Afghanistan and Pakistan please. Or more closely related topics to modern warfare. 

Onward.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 25, 2018)

@amlove21 Roger, back on track.

It will be interesting to see India step up to the plate, or at least more so than they have.

What do you all see happening here?

After withdrawal of US troops from Syria, India’s challenge in Afghanistan


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 25, 2018)

I'm unsure if it's previously discussed on this board, but for a long time I've felt India would be a great strategic partner for Afghanistan considering how much of a shit show Pakistan has been.  Large Army that can help train up the Afghans and also provide tactical assistance.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 25, 2018)

This is quickly getting very, very interesting...

China, Pakistan discuss ‘new changes’ to Afghanistan situation


----------



## Kraut783 (Dec 25, 2018)

No way to control a country with that kind of landscape...only the major cities.  You want order, bring back the warlords.

Hell, with so many states starting to legalize marijuana, let the warlords grow it for the US  

(from my pics, 2002)


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Dec 25, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> I'm unsure if it's previously discussed on this board, but for a long time I've felt India would be a great strategic partner for Afghanistan considering how much of a shit show Pakistan has been.  Large Army that can help train up the Afghans and also provide tactical assistance.




I'm all for something different.....besides India is the reason we have:
IPAs
Curry
Priyanka Chopra
Gurkhas


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 25, 2018)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> I'm all for something different.....besides India is the reason we have:
> IPAs
> Curry
> Priyanka Chopra
> Gurkhas



Quite frankly I’d rather see India and it’s neighbors step up and deal with Afghanistan at this point while we rebuild our presence in Europe. At least from there we can be anywhere in Eurasia withinin hours and we don’t have to deal with around the clock harassment attacks ie rockets and mortars and oh yea IEDs everyfuckingwhere. 

If China wants a piece of that pie...HOORAY! The Russians went for it in the 80s and had their fun while watching their Hind D choppers get knocked out of the sky by .303 cal WWII era rifles. Then we definitely took a crack at it and fought the enemy while politics held one arm behind our backs. So, if someone else thinks that they have the sand, great! 

Like @Kraut783 said and I agree, this type of countries terrain presents a major challenge to establish order in. We know we have the firepower but we’ll never go ‘there’. At the end of the day it’s not a leap of logic that their own people may begin to reestablish warlord territories again and some semblance of governing across that ahem...shit hole country.

So, bye bye Asscrackistan and hello Europe. We’ll train, train and train some more, some salty warriors will help, some will re-up and eventually we’ll be ready for the next rodeo.

A whole new generation of our military will be tested...And the beat goes on.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 25, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> No way to control a country with that kind of landscape...only the major cities.  You want order, bring back the warlords.
> 
> Hell, with so many states starting to legalize marijuana, let the warlords grow it for the US
> 
> ...



Kinda looks like Virginia ;)


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Dec 26, 2018)

Just throwing this out there. In two months PK will start sowing cotton for the upcoming 2019 season. Also saw a blurb that this years rise in cotton production in Pk was due to 625 million dollars in farm subsidies for seed, fertilizers, insecticides, and electricity for water pumps. Looks like Pakistan is getting a bunch of aid from to build up it's agricultural industry. Ag support coming from us (USDA/USAID/Any other dept) really needs to be cut from Pakistan.

Link: ForeignAssistance.gov



Add on: I think it might be beneficial to also point out that Pakistan exports a lot of agricultural resources to the PRC. Maybe I'm being provincial, but I think it's pretty stupid to give our enemies the means to profit off our goodwill.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Dec 26, 2018)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> I'm all for something different.....besides India is the reason we have:
> IPAs
> Curry
> Priyanka Chopra
> Gurkhas


You state IPA's like they are worth the water wasted to make them.


----------



## SpitfireV (Dec 26, 2018)

How is India to take a role in Afghanistan when Pakistan is literally in the way and why would they want to?


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 26, 2018)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Just throwing this out there. In two months PK will start sowing cotton for the upcoming 2019 season. Also saw a blurb that this years rise in cotton production in Pk was due to 625 million dollars in farm subsidies for seed, fertilizers, insecticides, and electricity for water pumps. Looks like Pakistan is getting a bunch of aid from to build up it's agricultural industry. Ag support coming from us (USDA/USAID/Any other dept) really needs to be cut from Pakistan.
> 
> Link: ForeignAssistance.gov
> 
> ...



With President Trumps isolalationist leanings I would not be surprised if this agricultural support begins to evaporate. 

There is a very complex chess game happening.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Dec 26, 2018)

MikeDelta said:


> With President Trumps isolalationist leanings I would not be surprised if this agricultural support begins to evaporate.
> 
> There is a very complex chess game happening.


I hope so. It would be nice to see GM (genetically modified) seed and foreign insecticides not make it to pk this year (or at least be prohibitively expensive and non subsidized). The blow to PK's economy and the PRC's food security would be a nice win for us and allied countries that export the same stuff.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 26, 2018)

“at least be prohibitively expensive and non subsidized.”

This seems the most likely scenario. President Trump can hold a grudge, but not if it means leaving a nickel on the table. What a beautiful piece of poetic justice it would be to recoup our financial war expenses over time by making the PKs buy our ag support.

We’ll never get our fallen back; however, it would be nice to give PK a swift kick in the nuts on our way out.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 26, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> How is India to take a role in Afghanistan when Pakistan is literally in the way and why would they want to?



To fight expansionism in short.

In 2017 India was going to send about 5000 troops to Asscrackistan, but NATO forces towed the line instead. India and Pakistan have a long history of conflict and Afghanistan could become the breeding ground for combatants going to Pakistan versus  how it’s been with Pakistan combatants coming into Afghanistan. 

 It’s like a game of whack a mole.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Dec 26, 2018)

Ranger Psych said:


> You state IPA's like they are worth the water wasted to make them.



YOU RITE!!!  

For the record though....Mathematically no beer is worth the water wasted to make it!!!!



> From the cultivation of the grains and hops grown for beer to the waste involved in filtering to the manufacturing of the bottle itself, one of the most recent studies available on the subject estimates that it takes about 300 liters of water to make one liter of beer. Another study, from WWF/SABMiller, found that it required anywhere from 60 to 180 liters of water to create one liter of beer. Either way, that’s a monster footprint.



Afghanistan is on that 30 to 35 North belt.  You can grow weed on a person if they sit still long enuff.  I'm thinking we need to move north to that HOP belt near 48 degrees [Kazakhstan is home to the Fertile Stepps and is part of the Ancient Silk Road]....


----------



## Kraut783 (Dec 26, 2018)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Afghanistan is on that 30 to 35 North belt.  You can grow weed on a person if they sit still long enuff.



You are so right, I saw more weed there than my 30 years as a LEO (more pics)



And our 18D, behind him is a whole valley growing weed, small plants at the time.


----------



## SpitfireV (Dec 26, 2018)

Hey, it's a rifle that's only got a scope. What a rare beast.


----------



## Kraut783 (Dec 26, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> Hey, it's a rifle that's only got a scope. What a rare beast.



Yeah, in '02 you deployed with what you got.....notice the "ranger" body armor, no real MOLLE.....hell, not a lot of AN/PEQ-2's around then.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 26, 2018)

I thought the PEQ-2 was the shit...I lit a cigarette off of a PEQ-15. Have no idea what's cool now.

But weed out of your muzzle in 02 is a pretty awesome pic.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Dec 26, 2018)

MikeDelta said:


> “at least be prohibitively expensive and non subsidized.”
> 
> This seems the most likely scenario. President Trump can hold a grudge, but not if it means leaving a nickel on the table. What a beautiful piece of poetic justice it would be to recoup our financial war expenses over time by making the PKs buy our ag support.
> 
> We’ll never get our fallen back; however, it would be nice to give PK a swift kick in the nuts on our way out.


Honestly, I don't think Uncle Sam is going to see much profit off an increase in seed export prices and other Ag tech. For the most part, the big companies and corporations doing business in PK are reaping profits off American developed agricultural technologies. Companies like Monsanto (now part of Bayer) need to be heavily discouraged from doing business in PK.

If we really wanted to fuck over PK and the PRC in the long term, we could effectively ban (or severely limit) their students from entering Western Universities. Foreign student aren't only getting government grants to study here, but they take or steal the best research and go live like kings in their home countries. What's fucked up is the research stolen is largely funded by federal and state academic grants. However, if we remove these foreign students from academia, technological growth and innovation will slow (if not outright stagnate) in PK and China.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 27, 2018)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Honestly, I don't think Uncle Sam is going to see much profit off an increase in seed export prices and other Ag tech. For the most part, the big companies and corporations doing business in PK are reaping profits off American developed agricultural technologies. Companies like Monsanto (now part of Bayer) need to be heavily discouraged from doing business in PK.
> 
> If we really wanted to fuck over PK and the PRC in the long term, we could effectively ban (or severely limit) their students from entering Western Universities. Foreign student aren't only getting government grants to study here, but they take or steal the best research and go live like kings in their home countries. What's fucked up is the research stolen is largely funded by federal and state academic grants. However, if we remove these foreign students from academia, technological growth and innovation will slow (if not outright stagnate) in PK and China.




@R.Caerbannog By whatever means available


----------



## Gunz (Dec 27, 2018)

There's nobody more hawkish than me about eradicating every single jihadist cockroach on the planet, but enough is enough. You gotta know when to turn mother's picture to the wall and GTFO.

Aside from our revenge for 9/11 against AQ, tell me of all the wonderful successes and achievements we've been able to accomplish in 18 years of warfare against an enemy that's backed by our allies, Pakistan and Saudi Arabia?

Many years ago I lived in a little primitive village. The houses had dirt floors, rice-mat walls, thatched roofs. There was no electricity, no running water, the people shit on their crops for fertilizer. The only vehicles were bicycles, the only farm equipment a water buffalo. Drinking water came from a communal village well, a bucket on a rope. A 20-minute helicopter flight east and welcome to fucking Disney Land, where you could buy stereos, diamond rings, fur coats, watches, where the War had become some kind of obscene explosion of capitalist corruption and excess. Anything for our boys. And all this was as far away as the moon from my village.

This is what you control in Afghanistan. Population centers and military bases. The rest you will never own. And it's not worth one more American  life to keep up the charade that victory is within reach.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 27, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> This is what you control in Afghanistan. Population centers and military bases. The rest you will never own. And it's not worth one more American life to keep up the charade that victory is within reach.



I agree completely.  But...the perspective I always try to keep is thst it would have been a very different  Vietnam if the Chinese and Russia would have kept to themselves.   

The Soviets would have had a different outcome in Afghanistan if the US would have kept out of it.  

Even today, it is different for me to believe that without intelligence and supplies from (pick a card any card) Afghanistan would not  be near the problem it has been. 

When we go to battle with these shit hole countries we are indirectly going to war with our bigger enemies.  Hell, China and Russia don’t need to go to war with us, they can just keep supplying whomever and kick back and watch as our resources and manpower continue to drain.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 29, 2018)

Hold everything.

Xe whiz, maybe POTUS will work up WPS III and turn the whole shitshow over to the new Blackwater...and Prince can party like it's 2005. 

Mattis and Kelly may think it's a hare-brained Larry Lightbulb idea, but what do they know?


----------



## SpitfireV (Dec 30, 2018)

MikeDelta said:


> To fight expansionism in short.
> 
> In 2017 India was going to send about 5000 troops to Asscrackistan, but NATO forces towed the line instead. India and Pakistan have a long history of conflict and Afghanistan could become the breeding ground for combatants going to Pakistan versus  how it’s been with Pakistan combatants coming into Afghanistan.
> 
> It’s like a game of whack a mole.



But that doesn't make a lot of sense. Pakistan has religious and some cultural similarities with India- India will not make ground there nor will they be able to use it for attacking Pakistan; which in itself doesn't make sense. Afghani Muslim will not work for Indian Hindus.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 30, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I agree completely.  But...the perspective I always try to keep is thst it would have been a very different  Vietnam if the Chinese and Russia would have kept to themselves.
> 
> The Soviets would have had a different outcome in Afghanistan if the US would have kept out of it.
> 
> ...



@SpitfireV War is complicated, proxy war is diabolical.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 30, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> But that doesn't make a lot of sense. Pakistan has religious and some cultural similarities with India- India will not make ground there nor will they be able to use it for attacking Pakistan; which in itself doesn't make sense. Afghani Muslim will not work for Indian Hindus.



This is one of the reasons India didn’t end up sending troops to Afghanistan. They didn’t want to anger certain Muslim factions within India. But, they want to diminish the threat of terrorism. It’s diabolical


----------



## AWP (Dec 30, 2018)

Don't view AfPak in terms of religion, look at it within the construct of tribalism. Being Muslim matters less than being Pashtun. The Durand Line split Pashtun tribes. Any nation muscling in on the AfPak border with have to consider religion as well as tribal allegiances. 

I know some of you are tired of me saying it, but Pakistan must be destroyed if the region wants to evolve, The Durand line, religious conflicts, and tribalism have consigned three nations to a low to medium-scale war for eternity. Something has to give, something has to change.


----------



## RackMaster (Dec 30, 2018)

It'd almost be worth letting India and Pak nuke each other.


----------



## Kraut783 (Dec 30, 2018)

AWP said:


> Don't view AfPak in terms of religion, look at it within the construct of tribalism. Being Muslim matters less than being Pashtun. The Durand Line split Pashtun tribes. Any nation muscling in on the AfPak border with have to consider religion as well as tribal allegiances.



You are spot on AWP!


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 30, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> It'd almost be worth letting India and Pak nuke each other.


Not like there would fallout for us to worry about  (pun intended)


----------



## Gunz (Dec 30, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> It'd almost be worth letting India and Pak nuke each other.



Only if India wins.


----------



## SpitfireV (Dec 31, 2018)

AWP said:


> Don't view AfPak in terms of religion, look at it within the construct of tribalism. Being Muslim matters less than being Pashtun. The Durand Line split Pashtun tribes. Any nation muscling in on the AfPak border with have to consider religion as well as tribal allegiances.
> 
> I know some of you are tired of me saying it, but Pakistan must be destroyed if the region wants to evolve, The Durand line, religious conflicts, and tribalism have consigned three nations to a low to medium-scale war for eternity. Something has to give, something has to change.



Yes, hence why Pakistan have more culture in common than India does. Religion is still important, though.  India using Afghanistan in any capacity is a non-event.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 29, 2019)

The Taliban want a time-table for U.S. withdrawal before they sit down to negotiate with the AFG government.

Of course they do. 🙄 All they have to do to win is wait for us to leave. I give them (with PAK/ISI support) two years post-US withdrawal to take over the whole show.


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 29, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> The Taliban want a time-table for U.S. withdrawal before they sit down to negotiate with the AFG government.
> 
> Of course they do. 🙄 All they have to do to win is wait for us to leave. I give them (with PAK/ISI support) two years post-US withdrawal to take over the whole show.


The people of Afghanistan deserve what happens.  They had a chance and blew it via corruption/indifference.
We've lost a lot of folks, and it's time to come home.
Those who say those lives lost are wasted are wrong.  AQ hasn't mounted a major terror attack on the US homeland since 2001.  They gave us peace and a measure of prosperity.
The mistakes were essentially made by politicians, and very senior managers (I refuse to call them leaders).
The trigger pullers were awesome, as always.


----------



## AWP (Jan 29, 2019)

Traditionally the Afghans go to ground during the winter. That isn't happening this year. The TB know they have the Afghans and NATO on the ropes, they just have to keep up some level of pressure and we'll fold. They know this and that's why want a timeline. Even with heavy Soviet support, the Muj made significant gains in two years, forcing a set of accords within three years, which then kicked off a 4 year civil war, ending in the rise of the TB. I think the AFG gov't is in worse shape than in '89 and with less support than provided after the Soviet departure. Air support, ISR, and SOF are propping up the country. 

If they last 2 years after our departure that says more about the TB than it does the AFG gov't.


----------



## Devildoc (Jan 31, 2019)

Nice read about the history of Astan and the USSR and how easy it is to misconstrue intentions in light of Trump's assertions:

Why Did Soviets Invade Afghanistan? Documents Offer History Lesson for Trump


----------



## Gunz (Jan 31, 2019)

Trump needs to open a history book once in awhile. Any intelligent person who was alive at the time knows quite well why the USSR invaded AFG...to shore up the Communist regime.

If by "terrorists" he means the mujahadeen, they were Freedom Fighters to us.


----------



## Devildoc (Jan 31, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> Trump needs to open a history book once in awhile. Any intelligent person who was alive at the time knows quite well why the USSR invaded AFG...to shore up the Communist regime.



That was one theory, and goes in hand with the need to secure their southern border.  The Soviets were legitimately afraid that the US could have influence and divert attention away from Europe.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 31, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> That was one theory, and goes in hand with the need to secure their southern border.  The Soviets were legitimately afraid that the US could have influence and divert attention away from Europe.



Not a theory, Doc. Shoring up a pro-Communist regime in Kabul was central to achieving the other concerns you mention, a secure S. border and countering US influence.


----------



## Devildoc (Jan 31, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> Not a theory, Doc. Shoring up a pro-Communist regime in Kabul was central to achieving the other concerns you mention, a secure S. border and countering US influence.



Let me rephrase. That was one arm of a multi arm approach. What is interesting, and with 20/20 hindsight, the Soviets were extremely anxious about us nosing around in the region.  for decades they totally misread our intentions, and they thought that we wanted to establish a foothold in Afghanistan when all we wanted to do is normalize relations.  Of course, if normalizing relations meant making the Soviets uncomfortable then......


----------



## AWP (Jan 31, 2019)

Pick up The Great Gamble by Gregory Feifer. It goes into detail on Politburo meetings and Soviet motivations. Yes, the Soviet's "intervention" driven by a desire to prop up the Communist regime because they feared the Afghan Muj would topple the gov't; one way or another, they feared, the Americans would gain a foothold.

Go back to the 50's and 60's, Afghanistan was rather moden, even Westernized in the cities. The West spent hundreds of millions on the country, prompting the Sovs to do the same. We already had good relations with Pakistan and the Sovs viewed us creeping closer to their borders. The notion fo a warm water port is a hundred year old goal turned into a modern myth; those dreams didn't exist in the 21st century.

The Soviets started prepping the ground as early as the spring of 1979. They went with a small SOF footprint that escalated into a massive conventional commitment. Sound familiar?


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Jan 31, 2019)

AWP said:


> The Soviets started prepping the ground as early as the spring of 1979. They went with a small SOF footprint that escalated into a massive conventional commitment. Sound familiar?



Never heard of her.....


----------



## Cookie_ (Jan 31, 2019)

AWP said:


> Go back to the 50's and 60's, Afghanistan was rather moden, even Westernized in the cities.



When I got back from deployment, my great-grandmother wanted to know if Kandahar was still as pretty as she remembered. 
Apparently she and my great grandfather had taken a trip in 1974 and visited Mumbai, Karachi, Kandahar, and Tehran.

She said Kandahar and Tehran were very similar to the USA at the time. She was amazed the women wore pants and there were disco bars.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 1, 2019)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Never heard of her.....



_She _was in Vietnam. 

Started with Green Beret advisors engaging in combat only when fired upon (the original ROE, hahaha)...four years later it was an industry. Funny how this shit keeps repeating itself...


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 1, 2019)

AWP said:


> Pick up The Great Gamble by Gregory Feifer. It goes into detail on Politburo meetings and Soviet motivations. Yes, the Soviet's "intervention" driven by a desire to prop up the Communist regime because they feared the Afghan Muj would topple the gov't; one way or another, they feared, the Americans would gain a foothold.
> 
> *Go back to the 50's and 60's, Afghanistan was rather moden, even Westernized in the cities.* The West spent hundreds of millions on the country, prompting the Sovs to do the same. We already had good relations with Pakistan and the Sovs viewed us creeping closer to their borders. The notion fo a warm water port is a hundred year old goal turned into a modern myth; those dreams didn't exist in the 21st century.
> 
> The Soviets started prepping the ground as early as the spring of 1979. They went with a small SOF footprint that escalated into a massive conventional commitment. Sound familiar?



I saw pics of some of the Afghani cities in the 50s and 60s.  They were beautiful.  As was Tehran, Beirut, Mogadishu, Bagdad....sensing a theme....


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 1, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> I saw pics of some of the Afghani cities in the 50s and 60s.  They were beautiful.  As was Tehran, Beirut, Mogadishu, Bagdad....sensing a theme....



Seeing the city of Kabul from TV Hill, you can see the remnants of a once beautiful city.  I'd love to go back one day and visit without worry of being blown up.  But I doubt it will happen in my lifetime.


----------



## AWP (Feb 1, 2019)

RackMaster said:


> Seeing the city of Kabul from TV Hill, you can see the remnants of a once beautiful city.  I'd love to go back one day and visit without worry of being blown up.  But I doubt it will happen in my lifetime.



If I go back to Afghanistan it is with a "00" number and license...


----------



## Gunz (Feb 16, 2019)

So...a high school dropout with JEM suicide-vehicle bombed an Indian security convoy and killed at least 46. Since JEM is a creation of ISI, maybe India should nuke the fuck out of Pakistan and wipe the whole fuckin abortion off the map.

👍


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Feb 16, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> So...a high school dropout with JEM suicide-vehicle bombed an Indian security convoy and killed at least 46. Since JEM is a creation of ISI, maybe India should nuke the fuck out of Pakistan and wipe the whole fuckin abortion off the map.
> 
> 👍


Cotton cultivation starts in two weeks for them. Seed potatoes are currently in cultivation as well as sugarcane. Rice gets planted in two and a half months. India won't have to use nukes if the Pakistan is starving and broke.


----------



## AWP (Feb 16, 2019)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Cotton cultivation starts in two weeks for them. Seed potatoes are currently in cultivation as well as sugarcane. Rice gets planted in two and a half months. India won't have to use nukes if the Pakistan is starving and broke.



The thought of a country-wide famine in PK really stirs my loins. I like the cut of your jib, sir.


----------



## Brill (Feb 16, 2019)

AWP said:


> The thought of a country-wide famine in PK really stirs my loins. I like the cut of your jib, sir.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 16, 2019)

R.Caerbannog said:


> India won't have to use nukes if the Pakistan is starving and broke.



...but Pakistan will.  Desperation makes people do weird things sometimes.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Feb 16, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> ...but Pakistan will.  Desperation makes people do weird things sometimes.


Maybe, but if we look at PK's cultural hierarchy I'm pretty sure that they're going to have their hands full keeping their starving peasants in line. Greater civilizations have been bent low due to famine and natural disaster.  Archaeological records show that it's usually the lower castes that suffer the most during times of famine. There is a reason human sacrifice and inter-tribal warfare was so big in Meso America.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 16, 2019)

Nothing keeps the plebs in line like a major war against a hated enemy.  

I deeply dislike Pakistan but we need them right now, unfortunately.  I like India more, and we need them as well.  If they go to war, our major land lifeline into Afghanistan will be at risk (Pakistan), and a major potential adversary against China (India) will be focusing its whole attention west instead of where we want it, north.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Feb 16, 2019)

Just to add to the last post. On


Marauder06 said:


> Nothing keeps the plebs in line like a major war against a hated enemy.
> 
> I deeply dislike Pakistan but we need them right now, unfortunately.  I like India more, and we need them as well.  If they go to war, our major land lifeline into Afghanistan will be at risk (Pakistan), and a major potential adversary against China (India) will be focusing its whole attention west instead of where we want it, north.


Very true, hatred will unite people. This is just me thinking aloud, but if India can make up the agricultural shortfalls of a decimated PK it's likely that the PRC will cut a deal.

Sorry for the add on: I think if China wants to keep growing and keep it's citizens fed and happy (to a degree,) they'll have no choice but to turn to the nearest large scale AG markets.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Feb 16, 2019)

Sorry for the shitty editing. Also wanted to include that I've been toying with something one of my professors said. What I remember was something akin to, "advanced civilizations have gotten steam rolled by lesser ones". It's made me wonder if PK is using human biology as a counter to our more advanced technology.

From what I'm seeing, PK has done very well to leverage it's population and land to counter our more advanced forces and technologies. The way PK generates it's wealth, to it's meddling in world affairs, seems to hinge on an expendable population and diminishing terrestrial resources. Like, their soil should be dead from extensive use and yet they turn a profit off agricultural goods.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 16, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> Nothing keeps the plebs in line like a major war against a hated enemy.
> 
> I deeply dislike Pakistan but we need them right now, unfortunately.  I like India more, and we need them as well.  If they go to war, our major land lifeline into Afghanistan will be at risk (Pakistan), and a major potential adversary against China (India) will be focusing its whole attention west instead of where we want it, north.


Would it go nuclear?
China suffers tremendously in a PK/India nuke exchange as most of the fallout will land in Chins (with the Korea's and Japan being the next two major victims)


----------



## Gordus (Feb 16, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> *China suffers* tremendously in a PK/India nuke exchange


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 16, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> Would it go nuclear?
> China suffers tremendously in a PK/India nuke exchange as most of the fallout will land in Chins (with the Korea's and Japan being the next two major victims)



I doubt it, but it could. 

In any case, "someone" would have to step in to stop the fighting, secure everyone's nukes, do humanitarian resistance, and help the countries recover.

Spoiler alert:  it won't be China.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 16, 2019)

I don't think the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction would be a very reliable nuclear deterrent among a number of individuals and factions in Pakistan...I mean, basically, it's just another path to martyrdom. In a big way.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Feb 17, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> I don't think the concept of Mutually Assured Destruction would be a very reliable nuclear deterrent among a number of individuals and factions in Pakistan...I mean, basically, it's just another path to martyrdom. In a big way.


I kinda wonder how the sons and daughters of PK's elite feel about martyrdom. From what I know, PK's sons really seem to enjoy drinking, smoking dope, and fucking/date raping sorority girls; while PK's daughters seems to enjoy doping it up and riding the cock carousel. I'm just not seeing them going along for the thermonuclear martyrdom ride.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 17, 2019)

R.Caerbannog said:


> I kinda wonder how the sons and daughters of PK's elite feel about martyrdom. From what I know, PK's sons really seem to enjoy drinking, smoking dope, and fucking/date raping sorority girls; while PK's daughters seems to enjoy doping it up and riding the cock carousel. I'm just not seeing them going along for the thermonuclear martyrdom ride.



The Westernized elite, yes.  But much of the military and the intelligence service are die-hard Islamists.  Plus you have pretty much the whole northwest of the country being basically ungovernable, and all of those barely-controlled jihadist groups.  It's a very volatile mix.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Feb 17, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> The Westernized elite, yes.  But much of the military and the intelligence service are die-hard Islamists.  Plus you have pretty much the whole northwest of the country being basically ungovernable, and all of those barely-controlled jihadist groups.  It's a very volatile mix.


That might be a benefit. It seems that PK's cultural and caste system is built on unstable ground. Earlier I mentioned biology as PK's way of asserting itself globally, if the right shortages are created in the right places they lose that advantage. The expendable population that PK has created will tear the country apart at the seams.

If India can muscle PK out of the agribusiness market and keep the PRC fed and supplied, I doubt the Chinese will risk screwing up a stable flow of goods and raw materials. Better yet, if PK starts to lose it's scientists, engineers, and botanists, the country will devolve into a plaugeland.

Afghanistan might be lost, but doesn't mean we can't wipe Pakistan off the map. All without firing a single nuke.


----------



## AWP (Feb 18, 2019)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Afghanistan might be lost, but doesn't mean we can't *wipe Pakistan off the map*. All without firing a single nuke.



I love you. No homo.

Fuck Pakistan.


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 18, 2019)

R.Caerbannog said:


> I kinda wonder how the sons and daughters of PK's elite feel about martyrdom. From what I know, PK's sons really seem to enjoy drinking, smoking dope, and fucking/date raping sorority girls; while PK's daughters seems to enjoy doping it up *and riding the cock carousel.* I'm just not seeing them going along for the thermonuclear martyrdom ride.



_That_...is no lie.  ME women are like southern girls brought up in religiously repressed homes:  once they get a taste of the forbidden fruit, there's no stopping them.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Feb 18, 2019)

AWP said:


> I love you. No homo.
> 
> Fuck Pakistan.


Love you too bro.


Devildoc said:


> _That_...is no lie.  ME women are like southern girls brought up in religiously repressed homes:  once they get a taste of the forbidden fruit, there's no stopping them.


Dude! You know what I'm talking about!


----------



## CQB (Feb 20, 2019)

The Indian army guys blew themselves up, just like they attacked their own parliament, everyone knows that.


----------



## Brill (Feb 23, 2019)

Here’s an inside look at the Pakistani war council.






It’s hard to miss the facial expressions.


----------



## Jaknight (Feb 24, 2019)

Man Threads like this are why I’m so grateful  that this site was made.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 26, 2019)

Oh, ok: Pakistan scrambles jets in India clash


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 26, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> Oh, ok: Pakistan scrambles jets in India clash


----------



## Gordus (Feb 27, 2019)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> View attachment 26620



No kidding.

*"Pakistan 'shoots down two Indian jets' over Kashmir"*

Pakistan 'shoots down two Indian jets'


----------



## Gunz (Feb 27, 2019)

“Pakistan must do everything possible to implement its own proscription of Jaish-e-Mohammed,” Minister Payne said in a statement.


----------



## AWP (Feb 27, 2019)

I probably shouldn't joke about two nuclear nations trading blows, but I am so wet right now.


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 27, 2019)

AWP said:


> I probably shouldn't joke about two nuclear nations trading blows, but I am so wet right now.



I told my wife this morning while we were watching the news before work that I just wanted to get a lawn chair and some popcorn; she didn't find it as funny as I did.  I feel like I want to be the kid in school that always goads people into fighting other people but who never gets in trouble himself, whispering "come on man, do it....he's been talking shit about your momma....", then walking away...


----------



## Jaknight (Feb 27, 2019)

If they do decide to throw down will their war drag us or others into it? Or would it solely be between them?


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 27, 2019)

Now this is an interesting twist.  LOL

Indian officer busted after trading secret info with 'Pakistani spies' for nude pics


----------



## AWP (Feb 27, 2019)

RackMaster said:


> Now this is an interesting twist.  LOL
> 
> Indian officer busted after trading secret info with 'Pakistani spies' for nude pics



Hmph! At least Americans trade favors for Gaga tickets.


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 27, 2019)

AWP said:


> Hmph! At least Americans trade favors for Gaga tickets.



Damn, beat me to it.  I was going to make a Fat Leonard comment.  But seriously, that is a big fucking twist, that's akin to a US spy trading shit with a Soviet spy.  Doesn't work out well when you are caught.


----------



## Gordus (Feb 27, 2019)

RackMaster said:


> Indian officer busted after trading secret info with 'Pakistani spies' for nude pics



Ze fak ^^

Who's buttocks could possibly be so impressive that it's worth selling your country just to glance at it lol ?


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 27, 2019)

AWP said:


> I probably shouldn't joke about two nuclear nations trading blows, but I am so wet right now.


The world ends 12 years from now anyway.
Why not go out with a bang.


----------



## Brill (Feb 27, 2019)

AWP said:


> I probably shouldn't joke about two nuclear nations trading blows, but I am so wet right now.



Zawahiri be like “LLLLLLAAAAAAAAAAAA!”


----------



## Gunz (Feb 27, 2019)

India...I don't think you have the juevos to do it...but you need to do it. Release the tension. It'll feel good. 😈 Push the button. Do it. Launch em, baby.


----------



## Kraut783 (Feb 27, 2019)

India and Pakistan don't play about Kashmir...there will be more blood shed there. I could see the UN getting involved, but hope to God we don't send in troops.


----------



## Gordus (Feb 28, 2019)

I feel people are taking the prospect of what might develop into a nuclear escalation a little too lightly ^^


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Feb 28, 2019)

Random thought. The headwaters of the Indus should be full of meltwater, which means that PK's dams should be working overtime. There are also reports of recent torrential rains causing flooding and other reports of PK having trouble repairing it's riverine infrastructure. If PK's dams suffer catastrophic failures, I wonder how long before the country folds in on itself.

A large chunk of PK's population resides pretty close to the Indus and it's tributaries. Not to mention a fair amount of prime farmland (Punjab and Sindh) would be rendered unusable for a time. In the quotes are thumbnails of PK's population centers (dots), poulation density (red shaded polygons), ethnic groups by area (multicolored polygons), and last PK's waterways.

Hypothetically speaking, it doesn't look like PK would be able to deal with the displacement of the millions due to flooding. PK's finances would also be crushed having prime AG real estate destroyed, for a season or two, by flooding and the following industrial contamination of the soil. Downstream flowing debris from a flood would also damage transportation infrastructure (bridges, roads, etc) and hamper reconstruction attempts. Thinking aloud, a displaced and starving population does not make for good wartime footing, especially with how ethnically fractured PK's population is.

Can't imagine how much monsoon season would suck in the aftermath though.


>


Pakistan Rain, Flash Flooding Kills 26 | The Weather Channel
Pakistan floods still claiming lives


----------



## BloodStripe (Mar 7, 2019)

__
		https://www.reddit.com/r/photoshopbattles/comments/aygphg

🤣


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 7, 2019)

Supposedly that thing is very cool to watch.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Mar 8, 2019)

Gordus said:


> I feel people are taking the prospect of what might develop into a nuclear escalation a little too lightly ^^
> 
> View attachment 26654



India's got India to look out for, and Pakistan's the root of so much evil on this planet....


----------



## Brill (Mar 8, 2019)

Ranger Psych said:


> ...Pakistan's the root of so much evil on this planet....



And the recipient of billions of your tax dollars...oh wait! Those days are done!


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 26, 2019)

So remember these five guys? You know, the five guys we traded to get bowe Bergdahl back, and Obama promised would never have any involvement in terrorist activities again?

Theeeeeey’re back!

Once Jailed in Guantánamo, 5 Taliban Now Face U.S. at Peace Talks

_The five senior Taliban officials were held at Guantánamo for 13 years before catching a lucky break in 2014. They were exchanged for Sgt. Bowe Bergdahl, the only known American service member to be held by the insurgents as a prisoner of war._


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 26, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> So remember these five guys? You know, the five guys we traded to get bowe Bergdahl back, and Obama promised would never have any involvement in terrorist activities again?
> 
> Theeeeeey’re back!
> 
> ...


----------



## Blizzard (Mar 26, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> So remember these five guys? You know, the five guys we traded to get bowe Bergdahl back, and Obama promised would never have any involvement in terrorist activities again?
> 
> Theeeeeey’re back!
> 
> ...


Grrrrrr...was going to dish out some hate for this but thought it would be a bit misdirected.


----------



## AWP (Apr 9, 2019)

4 more KIA in Afghanistan.

Car bomb kills 3 U.S. troops and a contractor in Afghanistan 

Blue skies.


----------



## Gunz (Apr 9, 2019)

Prayers out for the wounded. Condolences to the families of the dead. Enough. Bring them all home. Fuck that place. Let it go the hell.


----------



## AWP (Apr 9, 2019)

The number of sorties generated by two fighter squadrons in country is staggering. Their maintainers are rock stars.


----------



## Gunz (Apr 9, 2019)

AWP said:


> The number of sorties generated by two fighter squadrons in country is staggering. Their maintainers are rock stars.



I know the 510th EFS is at Bagram. Kudos then to the ground crews.


----------



## Kraut783 (Apr 9, 2019)

AWP said:


> 4 more KIA in Afghanistan.
> 
> Car bomb kills 3 U.S. troops and a contractor in Afghanistan
> 
> Blue skies.



One was FDNY...

A N.Y. Firefighter Went to Serve in Afghanistan. He Was Killed by a Roadside Bomb.

Rest in Peace


----------



## Gunz (Apr 10, 2019)

.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 9, 2019)

This was one of those things where I'm like...how is any of this a secret?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/grap...hgrH8JC88It9ypWT1xuqLAMTS17qxpDW2puE3pFePLmnU

How long have we, on this website discussed how much of a failure of a place that Afghanistan is?


----------



## AWP (Dec 9, 2019)

That article is little more than sourcing quotes for the observations made on this forum over the last decade.


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 9, 2019)

AWP said:


> That article is little more than sourcing quotes for the observations made on this forum over the last decade.




I know I need to read that report, but it's probably just going to make me angry.  And probably not for the reasons people think.


----------



## AWP (Dec 10, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> I know I need to read that report, but it's probably just going to make me angry.  And probably not for the reasons people think.



Brother, there are GO's quoted in the article making the same points we have made over and over. Some of them even have an acidic quote or two for those observations. The article is 50% "yeah, we knew better, but we chose to suck" and 50% "every president and SECDEF lied through their teeth" comments. I think the best was Rumsfeld writing a memo to various generals asking them how to disengage from Afghanistan while holding a press conference around the same time mocking the notion that Afghanistan will become a quagmire. 

If you read it you either detach yourself emotionally or suffer from a combination of rage and depression.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 10, 2019)

We had obtainable goals, but embraced qweep. 
Declare victory and come home.
Oh, and eliminate Kharzi .


----------



## Kraut783 (Dec 10, 2019)

Really? Kharzi was the best hope for Afghan......LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL...sorry, can't keep a straight face on that one.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 19, 2019)

.


----------



## RackMaster (Dec 19, 2019)

Here's an interesting read on the Canuckistani perspective. 

COMMENTARY: Canada’s war in Afghanistan was complicated, but it was no failure


----------



## Box (Dec 19, 2019)

Look on the bright side...

-How many of us would own a pakol if we had never gone to Afghanistan?  (How many would even know what a pakol was?)
-How many of us would have a wicked cool bootleg CD collection if we had never gone to Iraq?
-How many Tuff-Boxes full of unused surplus field gear would you have in your garage?  (great supplements for hunting season)

Ya' gotta look for that silver lining inside of every storm cloud.
Granted -I can only come up with those three "good" things to come out of the last 19 years worth of flimsy GWOT policy - but its the best I could do on short notice.


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 19, 2019)

AWP said:


> Brother, there are GO's quoted in the article making the same points we have made over and over. Some of them even have an acidic quote or two for those observations. The article is 50% "yeah, we knew better, but we chose to suck" and 50% "every president and SECDEF lied through their teeth" comments. I think the best was Rumsfeld writing a memo to various generals asking them how to disengage from Afghanistan while holding a press conference around the same time mocking the notion that Afghanistan will become a quagmire.
> 
> If you read it you either detach yourself emotionally or suffer from a combination of rage and depression.



"like," but also, "hate."


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 19, 2019)

Box said:


> Look on the bright side...
> 
> -How many of us would own a pakol if we had never gone to Afghanistan?  (How many would even know what a pakol was?)
> -How many of us would have a wicked cool bootleg CD collection if we had never gone to Iraq?
> ...



Holy shit you know me far too well.

Plus, how can I humble-brag about my deployments if... I had no deployments?

and, AAFES pogs.


----------



## Box (Dec 19, 2019)

> Plus, how can I humble-brag about my deployments if... I had no deployments?



Exactly !!!

Besdies, how can we have "_Thank you for your service_" threads without the GWOT to make civilians feel obligated to appreciate veterans ??
What would the "_I was a SOF Operator_" career pimps write their books about?
How many Fox/CNN/MSDNC news analysts would be out of work if they hadnt squeezed in at least one deployment safe on a huge FOB before they started talking about how to win the war on terror.
Worst of all - we wouldn't be able to blame our current ethical conundrum on things like PTSD and Moral Injury. 

A lot of good things came out of this shit show if you have an active enough immagination.


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 19, 2019)

Box said:


> Exactly !!!
> 
> Besdies, how can we have "_Thank you for your service_" threads without the GWOT to make civilians feel obligated to appreciate veterans ??
> What would the "_I was a SOF Operator_" career pimps write their books about?
> How many Fox/CNN/MSDNC news analysts would be out of work if they hadnt squeezed in at least one deployment safe on a huge FOB before they started talking about how to win the war on terror.



As someone who spent all seven (/humble-brag) deployments safe on the FOB, I approve this, and all similar, messages.


----------



## AWP (Dec 19, 2019)

@Box can really be a downer some days...


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 19, 2019)

AWP said:


> @Box can really be a downer some days...



...says the guy with like 100 deployments


----------



## RackMaster (Dec 19, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> ...says the guy with like 100 deployments



Are they still deployments, if he's invested in local real estate and could claim residency?


----------



## AWP (Dec 19, 2019)

All of you shut up.

If contractors did the overseas service stripe thing I'd have...27?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 19, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> Holy shit you know me far too well.
> 
> Plus, how can I humble-brag about my deployments if... I had no deployments?
> 
> and, AAFES pogs.


Did you at least buy a carpet?


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 19, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> Did you at least buy a carpet?



No, actually. I don’t know carpets and I don’t know jewelry so I didn’t buy any of that.  But I know furniture.  And guns.  Lots of guns...


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 19, 2019)

RackMaster said:


> Are they still deployments, if he's invested in local real estate and could claim residency?



You’re right.  At this point he’s really just commuting to work.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 20, 2019)

Box said:


> Exactly !!!
> 
> Besdies, how can we have "_Thank you for your service_" threads without the GWOT to make civilians feel obligated to appreciate veterans ??
> What would the "_I was a SOF Operator_" career pimps write their books about?
> ...



Like contractor opportunities.


----------



## AWP (Dec 20, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> Like contractor opportunities.



Shut up.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 20, 2019)

In the months right after Tora Bora, after UBL and his entourage of senior AQ leadership were essentially allowed to walk out of the Spin Ghar into Pakistan and disappear for nine years...Tommy Franks would buzz out of the MacDill gate with his entourage of black Suburbans and stop to glad-hand the flag-waving rich Trophy wives on Bayshore, (one of whom was the infamous Paula Broadwell, who probably should of married a general instead of a wealthy radiologist).

_Anyhoo_......I remember thinking at that time, _Does this cat really have a handle on it? _Or with Rummy and Franks are we looking at another MacNamara/Westmoreland shit show of guys who really never grasp the essentials of the conflict and spend their lives spinning bad news into optimistic sound bite cliches?


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 20, 2019)

Gunz said:


> In the months right after Tora Bora, after UBL and his entourage of senior AQ leadership were essentially allowed to walk out of the Spin Ghar into Pakistan and disappear for nine years...Tommy Franks would buzz out of the MacDill gate with his entourage of black Suburbans and stop to glad-hand the flag-waving rich Trophy wives on Bayshore, (affectionately know by cynics--like me--as _The Whores on Bayshore_; one of whom was the infamous Paula Broadwell, who probably should of married a general instead of a wealthy radiologist).
> 
> _Anyhoo_......I remember thinking at that time, _Does this cat really have a handle on it? _Or with Rummy and Franks are we looking at another MacNamara/Westmoreland shit show of guys who really never grasp the essentials of the conflict and spend their lives spinning bad news into optimistic sound bite cliches?


Rummy was/is a McNamara acolyte,  and it showed.


----------



## Centermass (Feb 8, 2020)

7th Special Forces Group ODA ambushed in Afghanistan in Green on Blue incident

A team from 7th Special Forces Group was ambushed today while conducting a Key Leader Engagement (KLE) in Sherzad, Afghanistan.

KLEs are sit down meetings, often with village elders, and while they are not combat operations in of themselves, they can still be dangerous due to taking place in a semi-permissive environment like Afghanistan. The team from 7th Special Forces Group was a Operational Detachment Alpha (ODA) partnered with Afghan Special Operations soldiers. The incident is being categorized as green on blue, meaning that nominally allied Afghan forces attacked the ODA and their partner force. At this time two Americans are reported as killed in action and eight Afghan commandos are also reported killed in action.

Additionally, at least six more American troops were also wounded. The high number of casualties (17 as of this reporting) is attributed to the ODA/Afghan combined force coming under fire from a DShK, a Russian designed heavy machine gun which fires a 12.7mm bullet. The wounded have been evacuated to the appropriate field hospitals.

Link

Just sucks. 

I'm sure more details will be disclosed as this story is still developing.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 8, 2020)

"The latest chapter in the sad saga of green on blue incidents occurred in Afghanistan, and affected Soldiers belonging to the 7th Special Forces Group. Details are still coming in, but publicly-released information indicates that multiple SF troops were killed in action, and several others severely injured, in a green-on-blue that occurred today in Afghanistan’s restive Nangarhar province." 

link


----------



## Butthead (Feb 8, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> "The latest chapter in the sad saga of green on blue incidents occurred in Afghanistan, and affected Soldiers belonging to the 7th Special Forces Group. Details are still coming in, but publicly-released information indicates that multiple SF troops were killed in action, and several others severely injured, in a green-on-blue that occurred today in Afghanistan’s restive Nangarhar province."
> 
> link
> 
> View attachment 31961


Heard it was green-on-blue but was hoping that wasn't true. 
Rest easy gents.


----------



## Grunt (Feb 8, 2020)

Rest In Peace, Warriors! Prayers out for the wounded.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 8, 2020)

Fucking fuck.  I just heard about this on the news. 

Makes me so enraged to read about incidents like this.


----------



## SpitfireV (Feb 8, 2020)

Why are these still being called green on blue? They should be called for what they actually are- an insider attack. GoB minimises it I feel.


----------



## pardus (Feb 8, 2020)

That fucking sucks. Those duplicitous bastards!


----------



## Jaknight (Feb 8, 2020)

Damn this is terrible news Rest In Peace Gentleman


----------



## SierraWave (Feb 8, 2020)

Link

Looks like the count could be higher than first thought... RIP.


----------



## Bambi (Feb 9, 2020)

Absolutely gut wrenching news. Rest in Paradise, Warriors.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 9, 2020)

.


----------



## DocBacon (Feb 9, 2020)

Until Valhalla brothers. DOL!


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 9, 2020)

RIP.


----------



## DasBoot (Feb 9, 2020)

Gunz said:


> Jesus fucking Christ. And ya'll know I'm not a stranger to green on blue treachery and murder and still have nightmares about it. Fuck these motherfuckers. We given everything to these ungrateful duplicitous cunts.
> 
> There's no defense against this. You never see it coming. You can look for signs but even if the signs are there, they're not actionable. All you can do is watch your back.
> 
> ...


Discontinue all “partnered” operations- pull back to BAF, KAF, maybe Shank. Maintain a foot print to perform unilateral raids and reconnaissance. Discontinue nation building. Drop the bullshit- we are not a peacekeeping, nation building force. We are an occupying force who have forcibly taken real estate and will remain for the foreseeable future due to the strategic value of having bases in country. Call it a day and let the surrounding country go back to shit.


----------



## AWP (Feb 9, 2020)

I'm rather curious to see the ODA's number. 7th provided one of the teams to secure the E-11 crash site.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 9, 2020)

AWP said:


> I'm rather curious to see the ODA's number. 7th provided one of the teams to secure the E-11 crash site.


In the spirit of staying ahead of the game and educating the newer members, that is not an invite to post speculation around the information @AWP is curious about.

Please wait until information is officially released  by DOD before posting about specific soldiers or anything that may identify them.


----------



## Deleted member 7960 (Feb 9, 2020)

DasBoot said:


> Discontinue all “partnered” operations- pull back to BAF, KAF, maybe Shank. Maintain a foot print to perform unilateral raids and reconnaissance. Discontinue nation building. Drop the bullshit- we are not a peacekeeping, nation building force. We are an occupying force who have forcibly taken real estate and will remain for the foreseeable future due to the strategic value of having bases in country. Call it a day and let the surrounding country go back to shit.



That strategy worked pretty well for the Soviets.


----------



## Butthead (Feb 9, 2020)

DOD Identifies Army Casualties

Shaping up to be a rough year.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 9, 2020)

Additional reporting indicates that there is a possibility that it wasn't green-on-blue, but perhaps a terrorist who put on a uniform to aid in the attack.


----------



## Kraut783 (Feb 9, 2020)

Rest in Peace Soldiers, blue skies.


----------



## DasBoot (Feb 9, 2020)

Duke said:


> That strategy worked pretty well for the Soviets.


I mean they did well until Stinger missiles entered the equation. My post certainly contains some hyperbole. I would still venture to say that cutting back or outright doing away with partnered raids would be the best move at this point.


----------



## Brill (Feb 10, 2020)

Rest In Peace brother.

Mods: not sure this is appropriate but I worked with Rod’s young spouse.

SSG  Antonio "Rod" Rodriguez organized by Cody Hunn


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 11, 2020)

Happened across this today.  Had no idea the writer/singer wore The Beret.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 11, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Happened across this today.  Had no idea the writer/singer was Wore The Beret.


Also an accomplished author: Casca (series) - Wikipedia


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 11, 2020)

lindy said:


> Rest In Peace brother.
> 
> Mods: not sure this is appropriate but I worked with Rod’s young spouse.
> 
> SSG  Antonio "Rod" Rodriguez organized by Cody Hunn




Squarely within the rules of the site.  And a totally appropriate thing to post.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 14, 2020)

.


----------



## x SF med (Feb 14, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> Also an accomplished author: Casca (series) - Wikipedia



And a felon...


----------



## Gunz (Feb 14, 2020)

Rogue Afghan Policeman apparently opened up on them with the DShk. He killed eight ANSOF counterparts as well.

Pentagon identifies fallen Green Berets and revealed more details about ambush


----------



## “The Old Man” (Feb 14, 2020)

x SF med said:


> And a felon...




No Shit😲😲😲


----------



## Gunz (Feb 14, 2020)

Tinman6 said:


> No Shit😲😲😲



Murder. But he kinda wiggled his way out with a minor sentence. I had forgotten about this until X SF Med mentioned it. I vaguely remember hearing he'd gotten into some trouble but at that time I had other priorities and didn't pay much attention.

Soldiering & fame just don't seem to mix. Soldiering is about dedication to the team, selflessness...fame is all about the individual. It doesn't always end well. (See Audie Murphy, Ira Hayes etc)


----------



## “The Old Man” (Feb 14, 2020)

Gunz said:


> Murder. But he kinda wiggled his way out with a minor sentence. I had forgotten about this until X SF Med mentioned it. I vaguely remember hearing he'd gotten into some trouble but at that time I had other priorities and didn't pay much attention.
> 
> Soldiering & fame just don't seem to mix. Soldiering is about dedication to the team, selflessness...fame is all about the individual. It doesn't always end well. (See Audie Murphy, Ira Hayes etc)


Is there a quotable source. Just to satisfy my own curiosity.

Absolutely agree on the oil and water qualities of the subject Of your post. 
Seems to work for very few of the shitheads who try. With the exception of a lot of NSW dudes... not all.


----------



## x SF med (Feb 14, 2020)

this one's short, but pretty well researched....  Barry Sadler | Biography & Ballad of the Green Berets


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 15, 2020)

Tinman6 said:


> Is there a quotable source. Just to satisfy my own curiosity.
> 
> Absolutely agree on the oil and water qualities of the subject Of your post.
> Seems to work for very few of the shitheads who try. With the exception of a lot of NSW dudes... not all.


Wiki has a longer version.  Was dating some chick and the chick had a crazy ex.  Then he put one between the dude's eyeballs, claimed he saw the guy trying to pull a gun and then planted evidence.  Then somehow got a 30 sentence.


----------



## “The Old Man” (Feb 15, 2020)

Thanks @ThunderHorse. I learn one or more new things here everyday.
 I remember sitting in Durty Nelly’s. Listening to the piano player doing Sadler’s ballad. When guys from the “goat lab” would come in from Bullis or the old academy of health sciences.


----------



## “The Old Man” (Feb 15, 2020)

x SF med said:


> this one's short, but pretty well researched....  Barry Sadler | Biography & Ballad of the Green Berets


Thank you for the reference Troll. Very much appreciated. 
Love learning about the odd things that permeate the culture of the craft.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 15, 2020)

Tinman6 said:


> Is there a quotable source. Just to satisfy my own curiosity.
> 
> Absolutely agree on the oil and water qualities of the subject Of your post.
> Seems to work for very few of the shitheads who try. With the exception of a lot of NSW dudes... not all.



Good insight into the oil vice water mix in Tom Wolfe's The Right Stuff...and how the career military men who became the Project
Mercury Astronauts were effected by their sudden exposure to international fame...even before any of them embarked on a mission.

They actually handled it pretty well considering.

Sorry for the thread drift...exiting now.


----------



## Brill (Feb 16, 2020)

Well, well, well: Talibs mysteriously dying?

Crackdown on militants as US and Afghan Taliban seek deal Crackdown on militants as US and Taliban seek deal


----------



## GOTWA (Feb 16, 2020)

lindy said:


> Well, well, well: Talibs mysteriously dying?
> 
> Crackdown on militants as US and Afghan Taliban seek deal Crackdown on militants as US and Taliban seek deal



I will remain optimistic in hopes that a peace agreement is truly on the horizon. I hope the TB are trying to get their house in order before they come to an agreed upon stand down date. They don't need anyone not on the same page fucking up a good thing.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 16, 2020)

_"...a high-profile former Pakistani Taliban spokesman appears to have *escaped* from the custody of Pakistan's intelligence services..."_

Bwaahaaaahaaaaa...they probably drove him to the bus station, gave him a ticket...and a complimentary Mango Falooda...


----------



## Kraut783 (Feb 16, 2020)

Interesting...maybe it's time to leave after all.

*Official says US, Taliban reach Afghan truce agreement

" A senior U.S.official said Friday the United States and the Taliban have reached a truce agreement that will take effect “very soon” and could lead to withdrawals of American troops from Afghanistan. "*

Official says US, Taliban reach Afghan truce agreement


----------



## Kaldak (Feb 16, 2020)

I'll believe it when I see it actually come to fruition.


----------



## SaintKP (Feb 16, 2020)

Gunz said:


> _"...a high-profile former Pakistani Taliban spokesman appears to have *escaped* from the custody of Pakistan's intelligence services..."_
> 
> Bwaahaaaahaaaaa...they probably drove him to the bus station, gave him a ticket...and a complimentary Mango Falooda...




_*The setting is Pakistan, early morning, the sun is rising over the Hindu Kush Mountains, a giant ball of goldenrod yellow, filling the valley with light*_

Mohammed: Abdi, if I leave here I will surely die. The Americans..those damn infidels, Allah curse them!!..they will come for me. 

_*Mohammed is visibly distressed and saddened, obvious heartbreak on his face*_

Abdi: Mo-
Mohammed: Ya amar, listen to me! You are the light in my darkness, my compass in the mountains, the shining star guiding me through rough seas. I don't know what I'd do with my life without you. 

_*Mohammed looks deep into Abdi' eyes, pleading, as well as with a look of almost shame for what he feels, an audible pause happens as Mohammed waits for Abdi' response* _

Abdi: Habibi, listen to me, look into my eyes and deep into my soul and take what I'm about to say to heart. You are my rock when the storms come, the door that keeps the wolves out, my life has become complete with you in it. But you will surely die here in this prison, I love you habibi, I need to see you go free! 

_*tears well up in both of their eyes, Abdi' voice cracks as he gets the following sentence out* _

Abdi: I need you to be strong, for both of us Mohammed. You can not stay here, but know I will come for you when I can.

_*They embrace, and Mohammed with a pained look on his face, but mixed with a bittersweet sadness starts riding away on his pure white Arabian horse towards the sun and mountains*

*Mohammed calls back as he rides further away*_

Mohammed: I will wait for you!

_*Abdi whispers*_

Abdi: As will I, as will I...

_*As screen fades to black a General Atomics MQ-9 Reaper Drone enters stage right*_


----------



## Gunz (Feb 16, 2020)

The Taliban will agree to conditions that result in the withdrawal of US forces from Afghanistan...because once we're gone they can violate that agreement and escalate operations against ANA. It worked to the Communist advantage in Vietnam; perhaps there's little to prevent it from working here.

I said it back then, and I apply it to insurgencies and guerilla conflicts generally: all they have to do to win is wait for us to leave.

Now that depends, I think, to a great extent on how good the ANA is thanks to our FID efforts...and how much support the Taliban get from Pakistan once Americans unass the AO and take our toys out of the sandbox.


----------



## Kraut783 (Feb 16, 2020)

Agreed...they own the rural areas. What if Afghanistan had Warlords that controlled different parts of the country and could be the force against Taliban and other groups....wait....never mind, we fucked that up too.

ANA will fail...as will whatever govt is the "mayor" of Kabul.


----------



## GOTWA (Feb 16, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> Agreed...they own the rural areas. What if Afghanistan had Warlords that controlled different parts of the country and could be the force against Taliban and other groups....wait....never mind, we fucked that up too.
> 
> ANA will fail...as will whatever govt is the "mayor" of Kabul.


Theres a huge difference from the forces of 2008 to now. I have faith in ANSOF and NSOCC-A in general.


----------



## AWP (Feb 17, 2020)

The TB are willing to find "peace" because they know that is an easier path to victory. They've worn us out, we leave, declare the Afghan gov't is stable and secure, and then the TB steamrolls what portions they haven't already. AF will go back to being PK's little bitch because that's all AF is good for. China will take their mineral and resource rape game to new levels and in the end the "poor" Afghan people for whom the world weeps will still live in the same squalor enjoyed by generations past.

Afghanistan is a self-selected victimized state. It deserves conquest and exploitation. PK deserves a 100% infant mortality rate.


----------



## GOTWA (Feb 17, 2020)

Ouch.


----------



## AWP (Feb 17, 2020)

With 9 years in Afghanistan, I have some pretty strong thoughts on AFPAK. There are some genuinely good Afghans, but they are slowly (or rapidly in some areas) being killed off by the other 98-99% of the population. Raping boys? Raping livestock? The world's leading producer of heroin since 2001 (sure glad no other nations were in country to stop that)? Provides 90% (let that number sink in) of the world's heroin? Sells off natural resources and then starves their own people, but also asks for world aid to feed the people it neglects? Afghanistan has all of this and more.

Pakistan is weaponized (nuclear, 1 ea.) radical Islam, a known (basically admitted) sponsor of terrorism, and like it's cucked-out, eyeliner clad little fuck boy next door, RUNNING to get some of that sweet, sweet Chinese D.

The best part is many of you remember when I was a passionate supporter of Afghanistan and that we could win the war.

If there is a hell, I hope Donny Rumfuck and Little Dick Cheney are gang raped by Mongols while other notable trash human beings masturbate in front of their anguished faces. Pol Pot bukkake!

I'll stop here before I go off on a rant.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 17, 2020)

AWP said:


> I'll stop here before I go off on a rant.


I thought THAT was the rant!


----------



## Gunz (Feb 17, 2020)

GOTWA said:


> Theres a huge difference from the forces of 2008 to now. I have faith in ANSOF and NSOCC-A in general.



I don't doubt it. But take away our support and consider all the variables. A Taliban re-energized, corruption rampant, all the things @AWP mentioned above in his non-rant-rant...and shit will head south pretty fast.

I think the "nation" we built in OEF is fragile and will crumble. But I'm a pessimist...I saw crack units with lots of battle honors--SVN Rangers, Marines, Airborne--lose their spirit like a punctured tire once our supporting elements withdrew.


----------



## Grunt (Feb 17, 2020)

AWP said:


> ...I'll stop here before I go off on a rant.



Personally, I don't mind some rants. Yours seems as though it could possibly be beneficial to some readers since you have changed stances over the years as have many more than likely.


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 17, 2020)

AWP said:


> With 9 years in Afghanistan, I have some pretty strong thoughts on AFPAK. There are some genuinely good Afghans, but they are slowly (or rapidly in some areas) being killed off by the other 98-99% of the population. Raping boys? Raping livestock? The world's leading producer of heroin since 2001 (sure glad no other nations were in country to stop that)? Provides 90% (let that number sink in) of the world's heroin? Sells off natural resources and then starves their own people, but also asks for world aid to feed the people it neglects? Afghanistan has all of this and more.
> 
> Pakistan is weaponized (nuclear, 1 ea.) radical Islam, a known (basically admitted) sponsor of terrorism, and like it's cucked-out, eyeliner clad little fuck boy next door, RUNNING to get some of that sweet, sweet Chinese D.
> 
> ...



Meh, you have done better.  This doesn't even make the "AWP Top 10".

But you bring up a point, Rumsfeld and Cheney impacts on what's going on.  I often wonder, and have been asked, where it went off the rails; where we went wrong from pursuing and killing those responsible for 9/11 to being the last body in the graveyard of nations known as Afghanistan almost 20 years later....

At the end of the day, Afghanistan deserves the Taliban, it deserves the enabler status of being the hot chick in the miniskirt wanting to screw the football player then crying rape for being raped by the entire team...


----------



## Kraut783 (Feb 17, 2020)

GOTWA said:


> Theres a huge difference from the forces of 2008 to now. I have faith in ANSOF and NSOCC-A in general.



True, now....but the Afghan govt will not support them once we leave, the level they have achieved while the US have been there will swiftly decline when we are no longer there to support their infrastructure...training, guidance, equipment, air assets....etc.


----------



## AWP (Feb 17, 2020)

Devildoc said:


> But you bring up a point, Rumsfeld and Cheney impacts on what's going on.  I often wonder, and have been asked, where it went off the rails; where we went wrong from pursuing and killing those responsible for 9/11 to being the last body in the graveyard of nations known as Afghanistan almost 20 years later....


I hate the phrase "graveyard of nations" because how many nations were brought down because of Afghanistan? Lost a war? Sure. Lost a country? Nope.



Kraut783 said:


> True, now....but the Afghan govt will not support them once we leave, the level they have achieved while the US have been there will swiftly decline when we are no longer there to support their infrastructure...training, guidance, equipment, air assets....etc.



Police offices and district headquarters have taken a beating for several years now.  The TB operate in some areas with relative impunity, even against the ANA. 

If we pull our CAS assets we need to pull every single troop, including SOF, out of the field and relegte them to Kabul, Bagram, and Kandahar AF. If CAS is pulled I'd even take away manned ISR flights. Relying on the Afghan AF for support is like leaving a condom in your car for a year and expecting it to not break when you need it the most.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 17, 2020)

AWP said:


> I hate the phrase "graveyard of nations" because how many nations were brought down because of Afghanistan? Lost a war? Sure. Lost a country? Nope.



Yep.  I've always thought the "graveyard of empires" description was over-hyped.  Pretty much any country who has ever wanted to, has conquered whatever part of Afghanistan that they wanted to.  That's why you're rolling up Afghans that have features of Chinese, all-of-the-'stanis, Russian, Greek, Iranian, Indian... you name it.  The fact that the country was so worthless that no one wanted to keep it, is not something to be proud of IMO.


----------



## AWP (Feb 17, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Yep.  I've always thought the "graveyard of empires" description was over-hyped.  Pretty much any country who has ever wanted to, has conquered whatever part of Afghanistan that they wanted to.  That's why you're rolling up Afghans that have features of Chinese, all-of-the-'stanis, Russian, Greek, Iranian, Indian... you name it.  The fact that the country was so worthless that no one wanted to keep it, is not something to be proud of IMO.



And keep in mind the industrialized nations that the Afghan rabble defeated were defeated because those nations were just stupid. Afghans are brave fighters, very cunning, but cannot last against a determined and intelligent enemy. Bad leadership and bad tactics yield bad results. The Afghans don't have some magic formula or aura, they have fought opponents with bad leaders and the US is no exception. We haven't fought a 19-year war, we've fought 19 consecutive one-year wars.


----------



## SpitfireV (Feb 17, 2020)

I think arrogant rather than stupid is maybe a better word. All the countries that have fought in Afghanistan haven't been dumb (collectively) and are/were advanced societies. I think underestimating the willpower of a Pashtun with a musket/LE/AK hasn't helped. Thoughts?


----------



## AWP (Feb 17, 2020)

SpitfireV said:


> I think arrogant rather than stupid is maybe a better word. All the countries that have fought in Afghanistan haven't been dumb (collectively) and are/were advanced societies. I think underestimating the willpower of a Pashtun with a musket/LE/AK hasn't helped. Thoughts?



Arrogance is good and probably rolls up the other reasons in a tight bundle.


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 18, 2020)

@AWP , I like @Marauder06 "graveyard of empires" better, but not my phrase.  That said, there is good evidence that the dissolution of the USSR was made possible by their fiasco in A-stan, but that would be a 'n' of 1.

Every country that tried to subjugate that God-forsaken land has ended up much worse for wear.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 18, 2020)

Once upon a time...



The End.


----------



## Kaldak (Feb 18, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I thought THAT was the rant!



If that is an @AWP Rant, you haven't read Monday motivation.

I'm with @AWP And @Marauder06 on the whole graveyard comment. The Russians left, Alexander left. The fall of those regimes were impacted and perpetuated by other factors more than defeat in Afghanistan. 

It's a nice media phrase though.


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 18, 2020)

Kaldak said:


> If that is an @AWP Rant, you haven't read Monday motivation.
> 
> I'm with @AWP And @Marauder06 on the whole graveyard comment. The Russians left, Alexander left. The fall of those regimes were impacted and perpetuated by other factors more than defeat in Afghanistan.
> 
> It's a nice media phrase though.



I don't know much about what the impacts of being in Afghanistan were to most countries, but it was a direct contributor to the downfall of the Soviet Union.  Not the singular cause, but it was the gas for that fire.


----------



## Kaldak (Feb 18, 2020)

To me, they were already on the downturn, and AF didn't really defeat them there...we did. Aid, assistance, advising, etc.

It wasn't really AF v Soviet Union.


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 18, 2020)

Kaldak said:


> To me, they were already on the downturn, and AF didn't really defeat them there...we did. Aid, assistance, advising, etc.
> 
> It wasn't really AF v Soviet Union.



As a global superpower, they were on the downturn. But this was their Vietnam, and the money they sank into that could not allow the Soviet Union to compete with Reagan's arms build up.  

It absolutely defeated them, yes with our assistance, especially with the anti-aircraft weapons, but Afghanistan did them what no other country could.


----------



## AWP (Feb 18, 2020)

AF hastened the USSR's fall. The timing of the pullout and the colllapse are relatively unrelated. The USSR was going down, Reagan's defense spending accelerated the process...and part of that spending occurred over Afghanistan.


----------



## Brill (Feb 18, 2020)

Devildoc said:


> It absolutely defeated them, yes with our assistance, especially with the anti-aircraft weapons, but Afghanistan did them what no other country could.



Soviet Generals blamed the Politburo for micromanaging the war and sending the troops into an losing situation. According to Grasimov, 15,000 Soviets were killed and 600,000 served in Afghanistan: that’s a lot of misery spread around a place where information was so tightly controlled. People knew the ground truth didn’t match the ”Party line” and the population realized it was all fake news.


----------



## Brill (Feb 18, 2020)

AWP said:


> The timing of the pullout and the colllapse are relatively unrelated.



Happens to the best of us.


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 18, 2020)

What happened to the Soviet Union and subsequently with Reagan, these events don't happen in a vacuum. The Soviet Union was destined to fall, but if it were not for what happened in Afghanistan, they probably would have been able to keep up with Reagan's defense spending and outlasted Reagan and possibly have gone into the 1990s before they started to falter.

I'm not saying that Afghanistan caused the death of the Soviet Union, but I am saying that it is a contributing factor and without it, the death would have occurred a lot later than it did.


----------



## AWP (Feb 18, 2020)

lindy said:


> Happens to the best of us.


----------



## Brill (Feb 19, 2020)

Interesting perspective on Soviet demise & Afghanistan and circles back to post-Afghan war realization among the peeps “it’s all a lie”.

(@AWP , I shit you not: your most bestest band is blaring in my kitchen right now.)



> Of course, Afghanistan increasingly looked like a long war, but for a 5-million-strong Soviet military force the losses there were negligible. Indeed, though the enormous financial burden of maintaining an empire was to become a major issue in the post-1987 debates, the cost of the Afghan war itself was hardly crushing: Estimated at $4 billion to $5 billion in 1985, it was an insignificant portion of the Soviet GDP.



further



> This, in other words, was a Soviet Union at the height of its global power and influence, both in its own view and in the view of the rest of the world. “We tend to forget,” historian Adam Ulam would note later, “that in 1985, no government of a major state appeared to be as firmly in power, its policies as clearly set in their course, as that of the USSR.”



Everything You Think You Know About the Collapse of the Soviet Union Is Wrong


----------



## AWP (Feb 19, 2020)

lindy said:


> (@AWP , I shit you not: your most bestest band is blaring in my kitchen right now.)



Because you suck as a human being?

<3's!


----------



## Brill (Feb 20, 2020)

AWP said:


> Because you suck as a human being?
> 
> <3's!



Isnt Bezos Canadian too (Amazon music)?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 20, 2020)

lindy said:


> Isnt Bezos Canadian too (Amazon music)?


Nuevo Mexicano


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 20, 2020)

So we're supposed to trust the word of a Haqqani now... 

Opinion | What We, the Taliban, Want


----------



## Brill (Feb 20, 2020)

RackMaster said:


> So we're supposed to trust the word of a Haqqani now...
> 
> Opinion | What We, the Taliban, Want



????


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 20, 2020)

lindy said:


> ????
> 
> View attachment 32132
> View attachment 32133



Young Carol Burnett??


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 20, 2020)

Devildoc said:


> Young Carol Burnett??


I’d say that’s Desmond is Amazing. At his age, he’s not a drag queen, he’s American bacha bazi.


----------



## AWP (Feb 20, 2020)

I couldn't even make it past the title and tagline without spiking my BP.

*



			What We, the Taliban, Want
		
Click to expand...

*


> I am convinced that the killing and the maiming must stop, the deputy leader of the Taliban writes.
> 
> By Sirajuddin Haqqani
> Mr. Haqqani is the deputy leader of the Taliban.



This is so fucking wrong on so many levels. I have a newfound hatred for the NY Times.

I'll post when I calm down. Goddamn is that article infuriating. Amirite, @Marauder06?


----------



## AWP (Feb 21, 2020)

The below is my opinion and not an official position of this forum.  

Alright, Shadowspear, I actually felt the acid rise in my stomach when I saw that headline, even without reading the article. Now that I've read it I'm livid and consider the NYT to be so far away from actual journalism that it should be sold alongside the National Enquirer and their ilk. What a trash organization.

That opinion piece is nothing more than a collection of lies. I won't spend the time to list them all, but we can run through a few:
- The Haqqani Network..eh, let's hear it from the National Counterterrorism Center, they might know what's what.
National Counterterrorism Center | Groups


> The US Government in 2012 designated the Haqqani Network as a Foreign Terrorist Organization because of its involvement in the Afghan insurgency, attacks on US military and civilian personnel and Western interests in Afghanistan, and because of its ties to the Taliban and al-Qa‘ida.
> ...
> The Haqqanis are considered the most lethal and sophisticated insurgent group targeting US, Coalition, and Afghan forces in Afghanistan.



Who leades the HQN? Again, from the CTC:


> *Sirajuddin Haqqani*, Jalaluddin’s son, currently leads the day-to-day activities of the group, along with several of his closest relatives. Sirajuddin in August 2015 was named as a deputy to newly appointed Taliban leader Mullah Akhtar Mohammed Mansur—cementing the alliance between the Haqqanis and the Taliban.



Yep, the author of that op-ed is the leader of a terrorist organization.

Let's check out a few bits from that NYT propaganda. 


> I am convinced that the killing and the maiming must stop.


YOU'RE THE CHIEF ARCHITECT OF THE KILLING AND MAIMING YOU FUCK!!!!!!!


> We did not choose our war with the foreign coalition led by the United States. We were forced to defend ourselves.


Who invited Al-Qaeda into Afghanistan? The Taliban, so please fuck off.


> That we stuck with such turbulent talks with the enemy we have fought bitterly for two decades, even as death rained from the sky, testifies to our commitment to ending the hostilities and bringing peace to our country.


How many people have you killed during this "committment" to peace phase?


> I am confident that, liberated from foreign domination and interference, we together will find a way to build an Islamic system in which all Afghans have equal rights, where the rights of women that are granted by Islam — from the right to education to the right to work — are protected, and where merit is the basis for equal opportunity.


BWAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!!!!!! Women's rights coming from an organization that throws acid into women's faces? 


> After the United States withdraws its troops, it can play a constructive role in the postwar development and reconstruction of Afghanistan.


Sure glad we didn't build roads, schools, bridges, hospitals, power stations and their grids...

I'll stop here. I think you get the point.

One last thing: I'll go on record as calling the NY Times a terrorist sympathising propaganda mill.


----------



## Brill (Feb 21, 2020)

AWP said:


> One last thing: I'll go on record as calling the NY Times a terrorist sympathising propaganda mill.



Why would they publish that? Seems like they tried to humanize the HQN.

The “liberation from foreign domination and interference” seems like an attempt to convince Americans that the Taliban is a grassroots Afghan organization (completely false).

Reminder:

Rewards for Justice - Wanted for Terrorism - Sirajuddin Haqqani



US, Taliban agree to reduction in violence, paving way for peace agreement


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 21, 2020)

@AWP there was a reason I didn't tag you with the article, didn't want to inflame those hemorrhoids or make your head explode.

@lindy it doesn't surprise me that the NY Times published this.  After all, they did this one recently...


----------



## Gunz (Feb 21, 2020)

RackMaster said:


> So we're supposed to trust the word of a Haqqani now...
> 
> Opinion | What We, the Taliban, Want



Maybe the Times can help Haqqani get that Nobel Peace Prize.




AWP said:


> One last thing: I'll go on record as calling the NY Times a terrorist sympathising propaganda mill.



They've been at it for decades, my friend. The Taliban, the Palestinians, the Iranians, even the Viet Cong, have all found the NYT a facilitator of their bullshit. And as we all know, regrettably, the Times is not alone. 

Don't want you to bust a blood vessel, but I wish we could weaponize all those years of justified, culminated AF/Pak @AWP rage.


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 21, 2020)

@AWP , my cousin is a reporter for the NYT (the arts section).  She's pretty liberal, but even she thinks the "news" and editorial sections are way out there.  Me, I hate that rag with a passion.


----------



## Brill (Feb 21, 2020)

Devildoc said:


> @AWP , my cousin is a reporter for the NYT (the arts section).  She's pretty liberal, but even she thinks the "news" and editorial sections are way out there.  Me, I hate that rag with a passion.



The medias:


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Feb 21, 2020)

If the NYT is publishing terrorist garbage why doesn't the DoD pull their access and any clearances? I'd even go so far as to strip sympathizing journalists and editors of any press/access passes, make them all persona non grata in the industry.

Enemies within and enemies without. Sucks our media apparatus has become a loudspeaker for our enemies.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 21, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> If the NYT is publishing terrorist garbage why doesn't the DoD pull their access and any clearances? I'd even go so far as to strip sympathizing journalists and editors of any press/access passes, make them all persona non grata in the industry.
> 
> Enemies within and enemies without. Sucks our media apparatus has become a loudspeaker for our enemies.


That wacky little constitution of our for starters.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Feb 21, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> That wacky little constitution of our for starters.


1st Amendment don't cover having a job, nor does it make your position in industry secure. DoD access and security clearance ain't exactly a right, especially for enemy brownnosers.


----------



## Brill (Feb 21, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> If the NYT is publishing terrorist garbage why doesn't the DoD pull their access and any clearances?



DOJ leaks to NYT. DOD & IC leak to WAPO. Apparently the DIA leaks to NBC now.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 21, 2020)

What the New York Times didn't tell readers about its Taliban op-ed is shocking

*What the New York Times didn't tell readers about its Taliban op-ed is shocking*


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 21, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> What the New York Times didn't tell readers about its Taliban op-ed is shocking
> 
> *What the New York Times didn't tell readers about its Taliban op-ed is shocking*



Definitely didn't expect a piece like that on that site.


----------



## GOTWA (Feb 22, 2020)

RackMaster said:


> Definitely didn't expect a piece like that on that site.


I think CNN has seen the writing on the wall and they're trying to right the ship towards the real center before they find their organization on the wrong side.


----------



## AWP (Feb 22, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> What the New York Times didn't tell readers about its Taliban op-ed is shocking
> 
> *What the New York Times didn't tell readers about its Taliban op-ed is shocking*



From that piece:


> Over the past decade or so, Haqqani's men have also kidnapped multiple Americans, including -- get this -- a New York Times reporter.



The NYT is pure trash.


----------



## Brill (Feb 22, 2020)

AWP said:


> The NYT is pure trash.



Yet we post links here that generate clicks thereby increasing their revenue. I’m a sucker for any story that reviles their true stripes.


----------



## Cookie_ (Feb 22, 2020)

RackMaster said:


> Definitely didn't expect a piece like that on that site.



It was mostly written to include this little blurb, I'm sure.



> The Trump administration seems to be hastening forward with "peace" negotiations with the Taliban that are really better described as "withdrawal" negotiations that seem suspiciously well timed to coincide with the American presidential election season.



I don't disagree with the assessment there that this is more politically motivated than militarily motivated.
Be real hard for any Dem to argue it's a bad choice without looking more hawkish than Trump.


----------



## Brill (Feb 28, 2020)

Seems sureal.

US, Taliban set peace signing for America's longest war


----------



## AWP (Feb 28, 2020)

lindy said:


> Seems sureal.
> 
> US, Taliban set peace signing for America's longest war



1. I'm glad we're leaving.
2. Those murderous, terrorist, motherfuckers won.
3. Our civilian and military leaders couldn't win a game of BINGO and checkers is too advanced for them.

All of our blood and treasure...


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 28, 2020)

AWP said:


> 1. I'm glad we're leaving.
> 2. Those murderous, terrorist, motherfuckers won.
> 3. Our civilian and military leaders couldn't win a game of BINGO and checkers is too advanced for them.
> 
> All of our blood and treasure...





Spoiler: You missed one....



4:  We’ll be back.


----------



## GOTWA (Feb 28, 2020)

We shouldn't be looking at just signing a deal, but looking at signing trade agreements for the export of Aghan goods. Some might disagree, but look where Vietnam is now. I know they're not the same, but it takes the extra step in good faith to help. What they do with that money, who knows.


----------



## AWP (Feb 28, 2020)

GOTWA said:


> We shouldn't be looking at just signing a deal, but looking at signing trade agreements for the export of Aghan goods. Some might disagree, but look where Vietnam is now. I know they're not the same, but it takes the extra step in good faith to help. What they do with that money, who knows.



The majority will go to the Chinese, the only exports we'll receive in bulk are poppy derivatives.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 29, 2020)

I just remember sitting there at ESM-St Cyr for the Colloque Guerre Irreguliare (Irregular Warfare Conference) in 2009.  One of the speakers called in via VTC, a British BG and he stated that everyone in NATO knew that it was a 20 year project and everyone was committed.  The next thing after that was Obama's New Way Forward speech at West Point in Ike Hall, 1 DEC 2009,  where he said in the same speech we would surge in Afghanistan and then begin a phased withdrawal.  My first unit deployed to Afghanistan under a  70% force cap, I got there after JRTC and got left home, also got fenced and couldn't go anywhere else.  Then while they were there, they were chosen for deactivation.  Took 6 Months to get orders out of Ft Knox!

I then of course have watched all of the BS since!  At no point have I seen this 20 yrs worth of commitment for Afghanistan that a general once said NATO had.


----------



## AWP (Feb 29, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> I then of course have watched all of the BS since!  At no point have I seen this 20 yrs worth of commitment for Afghanistan that a general once said NATO had.



We didn't, we had 19 one-year commitments and NATO/ ISAF wasn't commited to anything except American dollars underwriting their efforts. This was different at the soldier's level but it always is...


----------



## Brill (Feb 29, 2020)

Some deets of the deal

US-Taliban deal could see US pullout in 14 months US-Taliban deal could see US pullout in 14 months


----------



## Brill (Feb 29, 2020)

Details of agreement:



> The United States is committed to withdraw from Afghanistan all military forces of the United States, its allies, and Coalition partners, including all non-diplomatic civilian personnel, private security contractors, trainers, advisors, and supporting services personnel within fourteen (14) months following announcement of this agreement, and will take the following measures in this regard:
> A. The United States, its allies, and the Coalition will take the following measures in the first one hundred thirty-five (135) days:
> 1) They will reduce the number of U.S. forces in Afghanistan to eight thousand six hundred (8,600) and proportionally bring reduction in the number of its allies and Coalition forces.
> 2) The United States, its allies, and the Coalition will withdraw all their forces from five (5) military bases.



https://www.state.gov/wp-content/up...or-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf


----------



## Blizzard (Feb 29, 2020)

"This war will not be like the war against Iraq a decade ago, with a decisive liberation of territory and a swift conclusion. 

It will not look like the air war above Kosovo two years ago, where no ground troops were used and not a single American was lost in combat.

Our response involves far more than instant retaliation and isolated strikes. 

Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen."


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 29, 2020)

From Today’s WSJ:

U.S., Taliban Sign Deal Meant to End America's Longest War

PDF of article attached for those without a subscription.


----------



## GOTWA (Feb 29, 2020)

Wonder how tight shit will get in the next couple months due to loss of personnel.


----------



## Blizzard (Feb 29, 2020)

AWP said:


> 1. I'm glad we're leaving.
> *2. Those murderous, terrorist, motherfuckers won.*
> 3. Our civilian and military leaders couldn't win a game of BINGO and checkers is too advanced for them.
> 
> All of our blood and treasure...


Although I'm quoting your statement, I'm not specifically calling you out here per se, however, I'm always curious about statements like the one bolded above.  As a result, the following questions are not directed to you alone, although I'd love more of your insight, but more broadly to others that share this view. 

Why is it you think "they" won?  And who are we specifically referring to -- the Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS, all the above, someone else? 

But more importantly, what does "winning" like to you?  How is it defined and what shaped your expectation for "winning"?


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 29, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Spoiler: You missed one....
> 
> 
> 
> 4:  We’ll be back.


Nope.  
Not unless they let Al Qada launch attacks from their territory, and I doubt they are that stupid.
Pakistan also loses, as we can now cut aid and let them implode.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 29, 2020)

"If bad things happen, we'll go back". -President Donald Trump


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 29, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> "If bad things happen, we'll go back".


I'm assuming that is a quote?

From whom?

Source?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 29, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I'm assuming that is a quote?
> 
> From whom?
> 
> Source?


Attribution noted above.  It was a quote from the POTUS address on the Afghan Peace Deal and the Coronavirus this morning.  Don't have a link because I posted that while the speech was live.


----------



## Jaknight (Feb 29, 2020)

Man I wonder how long will it be before the Taliban break their promises? Question Why couldn’t the Afghans get their country together? After all we spent?


----------



## DasBoot (Feb 29, 2020)




----------



## DA SWO (Feb 29, 2020)

Jaknight said:


> Man I wonder how long will it be before the Taliban break their promises? Question Why couldn’t the Afghans get their country together? After all we spent?


6 Weeks.

I don't care.  I don't see the current government being much better.  We should arm the crap out of the warlords and let everyone have at it.


----------



## Florida173 (Feb 29, 2020)

Lots of high spin, low information articles being published today on the US/Taliban “peace agreement”. Linked below is the agreement in full. TLDR: it’s an agreement to work on an agreement. Heavy on specifics and timelines on the US side, light on the teeth for specific enforcement of Taliban aspirational compliance. 

https://www.state.gov/wp-content/up...or-Bringing-Peace-to-Afghanistan-02.29.20.pdf


----------



## AWP (Feb 29, 2020)

Blizzard said:


> Although I'm quoting your statement, I'm not specifically calling you out here per se, however, I'm always curious about statements like the one bolded above.  As a result, the following questions are not directed to you alone, although I'd love more of your insight, but more broadly to others that share this view.
> 
> Why is it you think "they" won?  And who are we specifically referring to -- the Taliban, Al Qaeda, ISIS, all the above, someone else?
> 
> But more importantly, what does "winning" like to you?  How is it defined and what shaped your expectation for "winning"?



Fair points.

- The Afghan gov't, turds though they may be, control...Kabul, maybe a few dots on a map? They don't control the country and weren't involved in the peace process. We have said our goal (one of a nnumber of changing goals over the years), was a stable Afghan gov't. That has not happened.
- This reeks of the Soviet withdrawal. Once again a  weak gov't was left in power while the force capable of propping it up quit the field of battle. History repeats itself.
- The TB is a terrorist organization. The old line people cheer about not negotiating with terrorists is false and has been since Reagan. Those responsible for providing AlQ a safe haven are now free to do whatever.
- We gave in to a Haqqani.

I don't see how anyone could say we won. At best we tied and I don't agree that we tied. We gave up. That's an "L" on the scoreboard.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 29, 2020)

Pakistan won the US/Afghanistan war.  The Haqqani Network, which is the controlling faction of the Taliban, is a "veritable arm" of ISI, Pakistan's intelligence agency. As long as Pakistan allowed the Haqqanis, the Taliban, and allied militias safe haven in the western part of their country, they could plan, equip, train, rest, and most importantly regenerate until we simply got tired and left. It took 18 years, but it worked.

Well played Pakistan, well played...


----------



## Jaknight (Feb 29, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Pakistan won the US/Afghanistan war.  The Haqqani Network, which is the controlling faction of the Taliban, is a "veritable arm" of ISI, Pakistan's intelligence agency. As long as Pakistan allowed the Haqqanis, the Taliban, and allied militias safe haven in the western part of their country, they could plan, equip, train, rest, and most importantly regenerate until we simply got tired and left. It took 18 years, but it worked.
> 
> Well played Pakistan, well played...


If Pakistan is our ally why would they fund the Taliban?


----------



## GOTWA (Feb 29, 2020)

Jaknight said:


> If Pakistan is our ally why would they fund the Taliban?



But are they?


----------



## AWP (Feb 29, 2020)

Jaknight said:


> If Pakistan is our ally why would they fund the Taliban?



You must be new around these parts.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 29, 2020)

Jaknight said:


> If Pakistan is our ally why would they fund the Taliban?


----------



## Jaknight (Feb 29, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> View attachment 32331


No  I’m being serious I know now from the forums that Pakistan aids the Taliban but I always thought they were our allies or something like that


----------



## ShamgarTheJudge (Mar 1, 2020)

Jaknight said:


> No  I’m being serious I know now from the forums that Pakistan aids the Taliban but I always thought they were our allies or something like that


Well mate, now you know.  Even my civilian experience studying Southwest Asian politics (a few classes) and listening to the guys and gals on the ground helped me understand the conundrum of ISI, the Taliban, and our tumultuous relationship with Pakistan.

Why you think they found UBL in a small Pakistani city not far from a military academy?  Why do you think members of AQ slipped through Tora Bora into Pakistan?  If that’s friendship and cooperation, I’d hate to see enmity.


----------



## ShamgarTheJudge (Mar 1, 2020)

Forgive me if I sounded a bit like Alex Jones in that reply.  It’s just surreal to read these headlines and think back to 7th grade and watching the planes hit the Twin Towers.
I’m not sure what to think about these developments.


----------



## Jaknight (Mar 1, 2020)

ShamgarTheJudge said:


> Forgive me if I sounded a bit like Alex Jones in that reply.  It’s just surreal to read these headlines and think back to 7th grade and watching the planes hit the Twin Towers.
> I’m not sure what to think about these developments.


I understand it’s shocking to me how involved they (Pakistan) were in keeping those Groups alive


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 1, 2020)

Jaknight said:


> No  I’m being serious I know now from the forums that Pakistan aids the Taliban but I always thought they were our allies or something like that



OK fair enough. The deep dislike that AWP and I share for Pakistan is well known on the site and I thought you were teasing us.

Short version: the national interests of Pakistan and the US are fundamentally opposed when it comes to Afghanistan. For a while there, Pakistan was receiving a-billion-with-a-B or more dollars worth of aid money from us every year, and then plowing a good portion of it back into terror networks that kill our troops and undermine our national interests in Afghanistan. However, since they have the only viable land route into Afghanistan for us, and because they could cause a LOT more problems for us in the region if they really wanted to, we tolerated that for a very long time.

For simplicity's sake, think of the Haqqani Network (HQN) as the Delta Force of the Taliban. They get the best funding, they have the most capable troops, they pull off the most spectacular attacks. And they are trained, equipped, protected, and directed by Pakistan's ISI. This is not a secret, and I'm not talking out of school. The HQN says that they are subordinate to the Taliban, but there's a reason why a Haqqani is a lead negotiator.

There is also a reason why Osama bin Laden was living freely in a big compound just south of Pakistan's equivalent of West Point.  ISI knew he was there.  They know where ALL of the major leaders of the HQN, the Taliban, and every other major terror group living in Pakistan are, because they're all on the payroll. 

Pakistan is after its own interests in Afghanistan, and I'm not mad at them for it. That's the way the world works. There are some things we cooperate with them on, because our interests align. But the war in Afghanistan is made in Waziristan. And that's the Paks' fault.

If you want to geek out over the details, here's an old but useful document that hits some of the main points:


----------



## x SF med (Mar 1, 2020)

Jaknight said:


> Question Why couldn’t the Afghans get their country together? After all we spent?



Here's the Cliff's Notes version: take alook at the socio-political dynamics of a tribal culture, then couple that with Islam, the opium trade and banditry over the course of 6 centuries...  there's your answer.


----------



## GOTWA (Mar 1, 2020)

Has anyone started watching this season of Homeland? Give it a whirl.


----------



## AWP (Mar 1, 2020)

Jaknight said:


> I understand it’s shocking to me how involved they (Pakistan) were in keeping those Groups alive



I'm honestly not trying to be a dick, but go back and read this entire thread, including the links posted. You'll have a glimmer of understanding then.

Also, go grab copies of Steve Coll's _Ghost Wars_ and _Directorate S._ These should be mandatory reading for the entire forum IMO.

That will put you at about...1500+ pages for the two books alone (paperback editions) plus the 30 pages here and links. Figure 1600 pages of reading.

Theeeeeen when you're done with those go pick up _The Great Gamble_ and _Afghantsy _to understand PK's role during the Soviet occupation.

And holla' at ya' boy when you need recommendations on books about The Great Game. Before I went to a Kindle my book shelf has a shelf and a half on Afghanistan alone.


----------



## AWP (Mar 1, 2020)

ShamgarTheJudge said:


> Why you think they found UBL in a small Pakistani city not far from a military academy?  Why do you think members of AQ slipped through Tora Bora into Pakistan?  If that’s friendship and cooperation, I’d hate to see enmity.



Go check out the Kunduz airlift. We allowed PK to evacuate key TB leaders in November 2001. The flight included their ISI advisors.

Alex Jones can't come up with PK/ AFG stories that beat the real thing. The PK border incident with an SF team, how many of our convoys were "lost" or destroyed between Karachi and AFG, the amount of US equipment (new!) available in PK's bazaars, Mullah Omar (TB founder) living out his days in PK...that's scratching the surface.


----------



## Brill (Mar 1, 2020)

Jaknight said:


> If Pakistan is our ally why would they fund the Taliban?



They didn't: we gave Your tax dollars to Pakis who skimmed their cut and gave monies to the Talibs.

Ghani not happy with the deal (aka I need more money to live like Nickleback when I have to flee the country).

Afghan conflict: President Ashraf Ghani rejects Taliban prisoner release Afghan president rejects Taliban prisoner release


----------



## GOTWA (Mar 1, 2020)

I like Nickleback.


----------



## ShamgarTheJudge (Mar 1, 2020)

AWP said:


> Go check out the Kunduz airlift. We allowed PK to evacuate key TB leaders in November 2001. The flight included their ISI advisors.
> 
> Alex Jones can't come up with PK/ AFG stories that beat the real thing. The PK border incident with an SF team, how many of our convoys were "lost" or destroyed between Karachi and AFG, the amount of US equipment (new!) available in PK's bazaars, Mullah Omar (TB founder) living out his days in PK...that's scratching the surface.


Well, I’m grateful for y’all that have been there, seen/done that, and have come home to tell the tale.


----------



## AWP (Mar 1, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> For a while there, Pakistan was receiving a-billion-with-a-B or more dollars worth of aid money from us every year, and then plowing a good portion of it back into terror networks that kill our troops and undermine our national interests in Afghanistan.





lindy said:


> They didn't: we gave Your tax dollars to Pakis who skimmed their cut and gave monies to the Talibs.



Therein lies the beauty of the war in Afghanistan.

We paid people to kill us.

Wrap your head around that, folks.
WE PAID THE PAKISTANIS TO KILL OUR GUYS.
"Why so angry, A-dub?"
*WE PAID THE PAKISTANIS TO KILL OUR GUYS.*
I don't quite follow, our good friends and allies did what?
*WE PAID THE PAKISTANIS TO KILL OUR GUYS.*
We gave them tens of billions of dollars and they did what?
*WE PAID THE PAKISTANIS TO KILL OUR GUYS.*
You're living in the past here, A-dub. Let bygones be bygones.
*WE PAID THE PAKISTANIS TO KILL OUR GUYS.*

FUCK PAKISTAN. IN THE GOAT ASS. WITH A NICKELBACK CD.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Mar 1, 2020)

Carrie is finding out first hand there is no chance for PEACE in AFGHANISTAN....even in Hollywood.


----------



## Butthead (Mar 4, 2020)

US conducted airstrike on Taliban fighters following attack on Afghan checkpoint
(insert joke about lasting longer than a Kardashian marriage here)


----------



## AWP (Mar 4, 2020)

The TB singed a peace deal but kept fighting? Whhhaaattttttt????


----------



## GOTWA (Mar 4, 2020)

AWP said:


> The TB singed a peace deal but kept fighting? Whhhaaattttttt????



You know it's a bit more complicated than that.


----------



## AWP (Mar 4, 2020)

GOTWA said:


> You know it's a bit more complicated than that.



I'll bite. How?


----------



## GOTWA (Mar 4, 2020)

The Taliban that have been negotiating a peace deal, vying for a spot in the Afghan government, don't speak for every TB fighter. Different groups have different priorities and beliefs. Then you have influence of other insurgent groups. IOT have a true peace deal, the Taliban need to start controlling the non-compliant actors. 

ETA: it's still tribal, afterall.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 7, 2020)

@AWP  for reasons.

*PAKISTAN'S INTELLIGENCE SERVICE MAY END UP THE REAL WINNER IN THE AFGHAN PEACE DEAL, AT LEAST FOR NOW*

Pakistan's Intelligence Service May End Up the Real Winner in the Afghan Peace Deal, at Least for Now | Small Wars Journal


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Mar 7, 2020)

Standing by for EPIC Monday post............


----------



## Grunt (Mar 7, 2020)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Standing by for EPIC Monday post............



As am I...x2....


----------



## AWP (Mar 7, 2020)

I would listen to every Nickelback song every single day for the rest of my life if it meant the end of Pakistan.


----------



## Grunt (Mar 7, 2020)

AWP said:


> I would listen to every Nickelback song every single day for the rest of my life if it meant the end of Pakistan.



Now THAT is indicative of how you TRULY feel....


----------



## AWP (Mar 7, 2020)

Vagabond said:


> Now THAT is indicative of how you TRULY feel....



I won't even buy rice from Pakistan.


----------



## Grunt (Mar 7, 2020)

AWP said:


> I won't even buy rice from Pakistan.



Nor would I, Brother. They don't have anything I would ever want or need for that matter. If they disappeared from the map tonight, it wouldn't bother me a bit.


----------



## Brill (Mar 8, 2020)

AWP said:


> I would listen to every Nickelback song every single day for the rest of my life if it meant the end of Pakistan.



Sending you a mix tape.


----------



## Totentanz (Mar 8, 2020)

AWP said:


> I would listen to every Nickelback song every single day for the rest of my life if it meant the end of Pakistan.


----------



## racing_kitty (Mar 8, 2020)

AWP said:


> I won't even buy rice from Pakistan.


I feel ya there, dude. When I had to do backstop at West Point one summer several years ago, I had every intention of buying a USMA West Point hoodie to add to my collection. Then I saw the “Made in Pakistan” tag.

I still don’t have a USMA West Point hoodie in my collection.


----------



## AWP (Mar 8, 2020)

racing_kitty said:


> I feel ya there, dude. When I had to do backstop at West Point one summer several years ago, I had every intention of buying a USMA West Point hoodie to add to my collection. Then I saw the “Made in Pakistan” tag.
> 
> I still don’t have a USMA West Point hoodie in my collection.



And THAT is why you are welcome at my house. Any day. Any time. Holla' at ya' boy if you and mini Bomb Tech are in Orlando.


----------



## BloodStripe (Mar 18, 2020)

Exclusive: Legendary special operations aviator reveals bin Laden mission details for the first time

He claims to be a silent professional, but I'll be waiting for his book.


----------



## ShamgarTheJudge (Mar 18, 2020)

“No shit, there I was, signing my NDA after being selected for this super secret unit...”


----------



## Kaldak (Mar 18, 2020)

I'm always torn if I should read these articles and add revenue though clicks, or just avoid...

Thoughts?


----------



## ShamgarTheJudge (Mar 18, 2020)

I had a buddy who might still be in the 160th.  I say might because I had to guess and he would never really allude to it.  I always appreciated that.


----------



## AWP (Mar 18, 2020)

Just want to give a shout out to FUCK PAKISTAN.


----------



## racing_kitty (Mar 19, 2020)

AWP said:


> Just want to give a shout out to FUCK PAKISTAN.


Free Kitty 2020, everyone!


----------



## AWP (Mar 19, 2020)

racing_kitty said:


> Free Kitty 2020, everyone!



Our foreign policy shall include heavy bombers over Islamabad.


----------



## GOTWA (Mar 19, 2020)

AWP said:


> Our foreign policy shall include heavy bombers over Islamabad.



Or a crop duster... ;)


----------



## racing_kitty (Mar 19, 2020)

I will walk the suitcase nuke into the fucking hallowed caves of their goat orgy parliament my damned self. Then blow it with a cell phone as I’m sipping Angel’s Envy on Air Force 2. #NeverTrustARedhead #WhatPizzaCutter #FreeKitty2020


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Mar 19, 2020)

Eh, wipe out their agricultural base and the resulting famine and civil war will slowly consume them. Add in factors like malnourishment, locusts, Kung Flu, flooding, a billion hungry Chinese neighbors, and things are likely to devolve. 

Seriously, Asia is about to get a hell of a depopulation surge. As long as we don't lift a finger to help Pakistan or supply them with scientific and ag tech they are well and truly fucked.


----------



## Kaldak (Mar 19, 2020)

racing_kitty said:


> I will walk the suitcase nuke into the fucking hallowed caves of their goat orgy parliament my damned self. Then blow it with a cell phone as I’m sipping Angel’s Envy on Air Force 2. #NeverTrustARedhead #WhatPizzaCutter #FreeKitty2020



I met her at a bar during SHOT Show...what I experienced changed me, so believe me, she will do it.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 26, 2020)

Was waiting for a legit news service to run with this.  WSJ is legit as you get...

I know not everyone has the subscription, so text is within the Spoiler Tag.

Russian Spy Unit Paid Taliban to Attack Americans, U.S. Intelligence Says

_WASHINGTON—A Russian spy unit paid members of Afghanistan’s Taliban movement to conduct lethal attacks on U.S. troops in that country, according to a classified American intelligence assessment, people familiar with the report said.

The assessment of the role played by Russia’s military intelligence agency, the GRU, in fostering attacks on American soldiers, comes as President Trump is pushing the Pentagon to withdraw a significant portion of U.S. forces from Afghanistan and as U.S. diplomats try to forge a peace accord involving the Taliban and the U.S.-backed Afghan government.

The intelligence assessment regarding Russia’s actions in Afghanistan was delivered to the White House earlier this spring, and until recently had been known only to a handful of officials, a person familiar with it said. Its contents were reported earlier Friday by the New York Times.
It couldn’t be determined whether Russian bounties paid to Taliban fighters resulted in any American combat deaths in Afghanistan.

_


Spoiler: WSJ Story



WASHINGTON—A Russian spy unit paid members of Afghanistan’s Taliban movement to conduct lethal attacks on U.S. troops in that country, according to a classified American intelligence assessment, people familiar with the report said.

The assessment of the role played by Russia’s military intelligence agency, the GRU, in fostering attacks on American soldiers, comes as President Trump is pushing the Pentagon to withdraw a significant portion of U.S. forces from Afghanistan and as U.S. diplomats try to forge a peace accord involving the Taliban and the U.S.-backed Afghan government.

The intelligence assessment regarding Russia’s actions in Afghanistan was delivered to the White House earlier this spring, and until recently had been known only to a handful of officials, a person familiar with it said. Its contents were reported earlier Friday by the New York Times.
It couldn’t be determined whether Russian bounties paid to Taliban fighters resulted in any American combat deaths in Afghanistan.

The White House, the Central Intelligence Agency and the Pentagon declined to comment. Russia’s Embassy in Washington didn’t immediately respond to a request for comment.
At issue is a secretive unit of the GRU that, according to Western officials, has conducted sometimes clandestine lethal operations against Moscow’s adversaries. The same unit, they said, was responsible for the poisoning in the U.K. of Sergei Skripal, a former GRU officer who defected to Britain, and his daughter. Russia has denied involvement.
Revelation of Russia’s alleged actions against U.S. military personnel in Afghanistan prompted criticism of Mr. Trump by Democratic lawmakers.
“If true, this is outrageous conduct by Russia,” Rep. Ted Lieu (D., Calif.), a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee, said in a Twitter message. Mr. Trump, he wrote, “is putting U.S. troops’ lives at risk by doing nothing.”

The Trump administration is expected to withdraw nearly all its forces from Afghanistan by this fall, with a peace agreement between the Taliban and the government of Afghanistan hanging in the balance. Those peace talks have stalled but U.S. officials remain hopeful that talks will be revived.
Mr. Trump has signaled he would like to pull all American forces from Afghanistan, ending U.S. involvement in a conflict that is now in its 18th year, regardless of a peace settlement. Military officials are pushing to keep between 1,500 and 5,000 forces there to ensure the U.S. has the ability to collect intelligence and help the Afghan government to maintain security and stability.

High-level discussions between the Pentagon and the White House on the issue are in limbo for now, U.S. officials said.
For years, Moscow kept its distance from the Taliban and other armed Islamist groups in Afghanistan following the Soviet Union’s 1980s defeat at the hands of U.S.-armed rebels known as mujahedeen. But in recent years, U.S. officials said they have seen increasing numbers of small arms provided by Russia in the hands of Taliban fighters. Russia has denied sending such weaponry.
Thomas Joscelyn, a senior fellow at the Foundation for Defense of Democracies think tank who focuses on Afghanistan, said he wasn’t surprised by the assessment that Russia is paying the Taliban to attack U.S. troops.

“Moscow’s willingness to embrace the Taliban openly and publicly dates back several years,” he said, noting that Taliban envoys have traveled to Moscow in recent years.


----------



## SaintKP (Jun 26, 2020)

This is going to come across as crass and I dont mean it to be. However I don't see the issue when we've been doing it for years, no decades,  I'm just surprised it took this long for a country to get outed for it.


ETA: "Issue" is a poor word choice, the potential of combat related deaths from this is terrible and I don't wish to downplay that. But I'm just not surprised that Russia would be doing that when we've been playing the enemy of my enemy game for just as long.


----------



## AWP (Jun 27, 2020)

And Trump invited Russia to attend the G7 summit...after Russia was kicked out because of its little "thing" with the Ukraine back in 2014? And we knew about the GRU-Afghan connection back in March?

Uh, WTF?

G7 members at odds as Trump seeks Russia's return


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Jun 27, 2020)

Homeland Season 8.....


----------



## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jun 27, 2020)

What in the actual Fuck?!?!

With the recent unclaimed attacks on a hospital maternity ward a few weeks ago and a few on journalists and human rights workers I've been wondering who else could be at it? Neither the Taliban, IS, AQ or anyone else is claiming responsibility for these. Even the Taliban said there are many enemies of the "peace process". *NDS *(Afghans) claimed to have arrested a joint Haqqani/IS cell responsible for the hospital attack, but I'm not buying that one. IS always claims responsibility.

*NDS not NSC*


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 28, 2020)

I guess I don't understand what people think the President is supposed to do here, go to war with Russia over this?

Proxy battles is how powerful nations fight each other short of war. It demonstrates capability and intent, and signals displeasure, without (usually) risking a fullscale war. 

If the Russians wanted to hurt us in Afghanistan, they could simply introduce MANPADS to Afghanistan. You know, like we did when Russia was occupying the country instead of us.

I'm not happy about this, but I'm not the slightest bit surprised.  I'll also add I'm FAR more concerned about Iran's involvement in Iraq, and Pakistan's continuous, large scale, and highly effective national-level support of the Haqanni Network than I am on this single, uncorroborated leak that even the Taliban are denying...


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 28, 2020)

BlackSmokeRisinG said:


> What in the actual Fuck?!?!
> 
> With the recent unclaimed attacks on a hospital maternity ward a few weeks ago and a few on journalists and human rights workers I've been wondering who else could be at it? Neither the Taliban, IS, AQ or anyone else is claiming responsibility for these. Even the Taliban said there are many enemies of the "peace process". NSC (Afghans) claimed to have arrested a joint Haqqani/IS cell responsible for the hospital attack, but I'm not buying that one. IS always claims responsibility.



Joint, between IS and HQN?  Interesting.  I thought they were ideologically incompatible.  Guess I have some reading to do.

edited to add: 

https://www.usnews.com/news/world/a...e-haqqani-network-arrested-over-kabul-attacks


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 28, 2020)

I found this a little while ago when I was looking up connections between HQN and IS.  It's a good read about the HQN and it's connections with Pakistan's ISI (not to be confused with IS).

https://www.mei.edu/sites/default/files/publications/PF23_WeinbaumBabbar_Haqqani_web_0.pdf


----------



## AWP (Jun 28, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> I guess I don't understand what people think the President is supposed to do here, go to war with Russia over this?
> 
> Proxy battles is how powerful nations fight each other short of war. It demonstrates capability and intent, and signals displeasure, without (usually) risking a fullscale war.
> 
> ...



As the host country Trump could have withdrawn the G7 invitation. Yes, proxy battles have been a thing since...forever, but even those have consequences. Coming on the heels of the impeachment/ collusion fisaco Trump could have just withdrawn the G7 invite, distanced himself from Russia a bit, and scored a PR win or two.

Trump can do no right in the eyes of many right now and I understand that, but he doesn't always have to give them softballs like this. Plus it sends a bad message to our folks that Russia's trying to kill them, but it is business as usual in DC.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 28, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Was waiting for a legit news service to run with this.  WSJ is legit as you get...
> 
> I know not everyone has the subscription, so text is within the Spoiler Tag.
> 
> ...


More on this....

Spies and commandos warned months ago of Russian bounties on U.S. troops

WASHINGTON – U.S. intelligence officers and Special Operations forces in Afghanistan alerted their superiors as early as January to a suspected Russian plot to pay bounties to the Taliban to kill U.S. troops in Afghanistan, according to officials briefed on the matter.

The crucial information that led the spies and commandos to focus on the bounties included the recovery of a large amount of American cash from a raid on a Taliban outpost that prompted suspicions. Interrogations of captured militants and criminals played a central role in making the intelligence community confident in its assessment that the Russians had offered and paid bounties in 2019, another official has said.

Armed with this information, military and intelligence officials have been reviewing U.S. and other coalition combat casualties since early last year to determine whether any were victims of the plot. Four Americans were killed in combat in early 2020, but the Taliban fighters have not attacked U.S. positions since a February agreement to end the long-running war in Afghanistan.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 28, 2020)

Spoiler: Phew, this is so comforting to know!



Russia denies paying Afghan militants for attacks



Thank God that has been solved and everything will be okay now!


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Jun 29, 2020)

Pakistan Stock Exchange hit.



Spoiler: Twitter videos NSFW





__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1277486651401310211

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1277486261297713153





Spoiler: Images NSFW


----------



## AWP (Jul 8, 2020)

PK at a UN Counter Terror discussion? I mean, might as well have terrorists there if you're going to discuss terror, right?

'Calling Osama a Martyr...': India Blows Apart Pak on Supporting Terrorism as Freedom Struggle in Kashmir



> A verbal duel broke out between India and Pakistan at the virtual UN Counter Terror week discussions. As Pakistan tried to raise the issue of Kashmir, India told off Pakistan by reminding it to first "look inward and live up to its commitments and abandon its divisionary tactics."
> 
> India said that while the world was coming together to battle the pandemic, it was "unfortunate that Pakistan, a state which sponsors cross border terrorism, continues to use every opportunity to peddle false narratives and make baseless, malicious and egregious allegations against India."
> 
> This came after Pakistan's permanent representative to UN Munir Akram alleged that Pakistan was "the victim of terrorist attacks mounted by organisations sponsored and financed by India and its collaborators."



Irony much?


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 8, 2020)

AWP said:


> PK at a UN Counter Terror discussion? I mean, might as well have terrorists there if you're going to discuss terror, right?
> 
> 'Calling Osama a Martyr...': India Blows Apart Pak on Supporting Terrorism as Freedom Struggle in Kashmir
> 
> ...



I believe the current buzzword is "current stakeholders....."


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 8, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Pakistan Stock Exchange hit.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Achmed: Let's go hit the stock exchange.
Said: Don't forrget to wear your covid masks.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Jul 8, 2020)

DA SWO said:


> Achmed: Let's go hit the stock exchange.
> Said: Don't forrget to wear your covid masks.


Lol! Honestly, they would have had more success hitting PK's other soft targets. Starving Pakistan and plunging it into a civil war would be a cake walk with the right people and materials.


----------



## AWP (Jul 10, 2020)

The Afghans lost an A-29 with a US pilot onboard. The American successfully ejected, no word if they were solo in the two-seater. The PR event was covered by the Afghan Air Force with Mi-17's.

American Pilot Ejects From Afghan Air Force A-29 Light Attack Plane (Updated)


----------



## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jul 18, 2020)

Pretty interesting take, a recent TOLO news Op-ed by an Afghan that used to be a "Senior Cultural Affairs Advisor" for the State Dept. Kabul.

..."As I argued in another op-ed here in TOLOnews, *the Afghan politicians, who primarily benefited via corruption from the American presence in the past two decades, failed to build a strategic partnership with the United States and missed the changing American policy in South Asia*. From the Afghan media landscape, it seems that *not only Afghan politicians misinterpreted the primarily goal of the American presence *in Afghanistan, *but the Afghan civil society, the women's rights organizations, and the well-educated Afghans misjudged the goal as well*. *These individuals and groups saw America as primarily liberators who would promote democracy. It seems that many of them became fully immersed in this false narrative*, and now they can hardly believe that Americans are leaving them without finishing those tasks.



*Working closely with both the Afghan and American government*,* I can say that from the American perspective,* all three administrations, including the Obama administration--where Joe Biden served as vice president—clearly articulated why Americans went to Afghanistan. In all those years, the _White House and Pentagon spokespersons openly communicated that the main reason to engage in Afghanistan is to protect the United States from international terrorism._



It's also not a secret that *the United States used the international development aid budget primarily as a counterinsurgency tool to win the foreign nation's 'hearts and minds' in order to protect US security interests.* Therefore, the* USAID funding to promote democracy or women's rights* in Afghanistan—and everywhere else in the world--*always has been an integral part of the US national security policy.



This false narrative--that American troops came to Afghanistan to promote women's rights or build girls' schools-*-has been largely promoted in the past two decades by Western NGOs, DC/London/Brussel/Dubai consulting firms, opportunistic Afghan diaspora, corrupt Kabul elites and indirectly by policymakers in Europe. I mention Europe because it was the European leaders who had difficulty at home explaining why EU troops needed to be deployed to Afghanistan. After the mismanaged conflict in the Balkans, the EU leaders--who were reluctant to send their forces outside the European wall--chose to use the cause of women's rights and the building of girls' schools as a means to cover their military participation in the 'big brother' wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.



*However, both wars have already ended for the United States and its allies, and now they are committed to leave Afghanistan.* In addition, as Obama's deputy national security adviser Ben Rhodes wrote in The Atlantic, "the 9/11 era is over" and the idea that every day could be September 12 is over. The coronavirus and new American challenges in Asia, where assertive China and revanchist Russia are each trying to become the dominant player in the region, are more substantial problems than the Taliban.



Also, *within the United States, the narrative of the War on Terror is outdated*. The *current generation of Americans,* as Mr. Rhodes describes, *are now more worried about climate change, student loans, economic and social inequality, than the threats from a group of few hundred disillusioned radical al-Qaida or ISIS-K fighters in the mountains of the AFPAK region.* This is not only the mindset of young Democrats or Republicans who are voting for former VP Joe Biden or President Trump but it is also widely shared by members of American think tanks and academia, policymakers, and among diplomats and military officers here in Washington. The majority of former State Department, DoD, or White House advisers who previously thought differently about the Taliban are today in agreement that the United States needs to end this war and leave an unsuccessful Afghanistan chapter behind in US foreign policy.



Therefore, *in terms of Afghanistan's fate, it doesn't matter who gets re-elected in the US in November*. The next president of the United States--in January 2021--will primarily be busy with internal affairs or much bigger problems in the world, rather than thinking about new Afghanistan policy.



The fact that *some Kabul elites believe that presidential candidate Joe Biden will change the current US Afghanistan policy* and keep pouring USAID funding into their corrupt system, proves that Afghan politicians lack the capacity to understand why Americans originally came to Afghanistan in the first place, and why they are leaving now." 



About the author: Arash Yaqin worked previously as a communication adviser for the Afghan Ministry of Foreign Affairs, Afghan Institute for Strategic Studies, and as Senior Cultural Affairs Adviser for the US Department of State within the US Embassy Kabul. Currently, he is an M.A. candidate for National Security Affairs at the Institute of World Politics in Washington, D.C.

=================================================================================================

I find it interesting. This is how some think of us after all those years trying to secure and build up their country...  All the blood and treasure in the past 18+ years and this guy makes it sound like we're selfish for trying to build infrastructure and support democracy etc. for our own national security.

TL;DR America is leaving Afghanistan no matter who takes office in 2021, Afghan politicians were wrong to think we'd be here forever and are trying to drag out the "peace" process with the Taliban hoping Ol' Joe will take over and change course and keep us here.


----------



## Locksteady (Jul 18, 2020)

Very good find, and he does a nice job of describing US involvement with Afghanistan in three phases.





BlackSmokeRisinG said:


> I find it interesting. This is how some think of us after all those years trying to secure and build up their country...  All the blood and treasure in the past 18+ years and this guy makes it sound like we're selfish for trying to build infrastructure and support democracy etc. for our own national security.


I didn't pick that up at all.  

If anything, it sounded more like a jab at the Afghan officials for ignoring what the last three American administrations explicitly and repeatedly stated was their purpose for reentering Afghanistan in the first place (national security).  The author even made a point of highlighting how it was European policymakers, NGOs, and private sector actors who pushed the false narrative about western forces invading Afghanistan to promote democracy and women's rights.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 18, 2020)

=================================================================================================

I find it interesting. This is how some think of us after all those years trying to secure and build up their country...  *All the blood and treasure in the past 18+ years and this guy makes it sound like we're selfish for trying to build infrastructure and support democracy etc.* for our own national security.

TL;DR America is leaving Afghanistan no matter who takes office in 2021, Afghan politicians were wrong to think we'd be here forever and are trying to drag out the "peace" process with the Taliban hoping Ol' Joe will take over and change course and keep us here.
[/QUOTE]

I didn't get that vibe, and slightly disagree on his take for the Balkans.

I think we (erroneously) thought we could do Afghanistan as another Bosnia, or Kosovo and that helped keep us there.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 18, 2020)

Locksteady said:


> Very good find, and he does a nice job of describing US involvement with Afghanistan in three phases.I didn't pick that up at all.
> 
> If anything, it sounded more like a jab at the Afghan officials for ignoring what the last three American administrations explicitly and repeatedly stated was their purpose for reentering Afghanistan in the first place (national security).  The author even made a point of highlighting how it was European policymakers, NGOs, and private sector actors who pushed the false narrative about western forces invading Afghanistan to promote democracy and women's rights.


We invested and wasted a lot of blood and treasure trying to help them build a democracy.  Western Ideals come with the package.


----------



## AWP (Jul 18, 2020)

Saying that Europe sold it building schools and all to justify their presence...so did the US. Sure, it was about reaching our own political goals, but how many times did we say we wanted democracy for Afghanistan going back to Bush? The Afghans may have misunderstood our end state, but we didn't help that narrative.


----------



## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jul 19, 2020)

He does strike out at the Afghan officials, "cosmopolitans", and women's rights activists, but what do they expect? 19 years and running is a hell of a long time to be spending in a different country. I think the idea is lost on him, that after the first several years of the U.S. training and equiping their military, it was time for Afghans to finish the job.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 21, 2020)

Things going on and such.

Afghan girl shot dead Taliban fighters who killed her parents, say officials


----------



## AWP (Jul 23, 2020)

Any of our folks in Afghanistan, specifically Bagram, are y'all hearing about a surge of suicides among the TCN's?


----------



## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jul 26, 2020)

^No, but not in Bagram either. TCNs just want to go home on leave.


----------



## AWP (Jul 31, 2020)

I shouldn't laugh, but I did. I kind of hope the Afghans and Pakistanis go at it for a bit.

Pakistan artillery kills 15 civilians in Afghanistan, Kabul says, after border clashes




> KABUL/QUETTA, Pakistan — Cross-border artillery fire by Pakistan killed at least 15 civilians in Afghanistan on Thursday, Afghan officials said, prompting Kabul to put its ground and air forces on alert.
> 
> The artillery fire came after clashes between Pakistani and Afghan security forces at the closed Chaman-Spin Boldak border crossing, where crowds on both sides were waiting to cross for the Muslim festival of Eid al-Adha.



That sounds pretty bad. What happened?



> They exchanged fire when crowds waiting to cross into Afghanistan became unruly and attacked Pakistani installations, a Pakistani official said.



Afghan civilians, IN PAKISTAN, "protested" a la Portland, so the PK response was to shell an Afghan village?

BWAHAHAHAHAHA! AF, take some of the equipment we've given you and go cash some checks on the border.


----------



## amlove21 (Nov 16, 2020)

Sooooooooo, war's over?

US military anticipates Trump will issue order to plan for further troop withdrawals from Afghanistan and Iraq


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 16, 2020)

amlove21 said:


> Sooooooooo, war's over?
> 
> US military anticipates Trump will issue order to plan for further troop withdrawals from Afghanistan and Iraq


Hope so.
Generals will be pissed off, but not too many Generals dying or being crippled for me to care.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 26, 2021)

Taliban prisoners released under peace deal arrested after rejoining fight, official says




> KABUL, Afghanistan — *Hundreds* of Taliban prisoners released under last year’s U.S.-Taliban peace deal have been arrested after returning to the battlefield, a top Afghan security official said.




"HUNDREDS"

And those are the ones who were re-captured, not the ones killed or still in the fight.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 26, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> Taliban prisoners released under peace deal arrested after rejoining fight, official says
> 
> 
> 
> ...



But...but...they promised to be good! 😱🤣


----------



## AWP (Jan 26, 2021)

Afghans gonna' Afghan. The tragedy here isn't that they returned to the fight. The tragedy, the real crime, is that we were dumb enough to believe them.

We are so damn stupid.


----------



## Florida173 (Jan 26, 2021)

AWP said:


> Afghans gonna' Afghan. The tragedy here isn't that they returned to the fight. The tragedy, the real crime, is that we were dumb enough to believe them.
> 
> We are so damn stupid.



I believe there is precedence elsewhere though. If you look at what Sri Lanka did with the Tamil Tigers. There was a rehabilitation and reintegration process... although that might be similar to what the uighurs are "attending" for all i know.


----------



## Salt USMC (Jan 26, 2021)

It’s all a scam to keep the 75th RR busy


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 27, 2021)

Afghanistan Wanted Chinese Mining Investment. It Got a Chinese Spy Ring Instead.

Afghanistan Wanted Chinese Mining Investment. It Got a Chinese Spy Ring Instead.​


----------



## Kraut783 (Jan 27, 2021)

They did get rights to that copper mine....but whatever...


----------



## GOTWA (Jan 27, 2021)

I was going to post this in the Isreal thread, but.....

@AWP

Biden administration puts a hold on Trump's arms sale to UAE


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 28, 2021)

GOTWA said:


> I was going to punch @Ooh-Rah , but.....


That’s not very friendly!  😆


----------



## GOTWA (Jan 28, 2021)

Ooh-Rah said:


> That’s not very friendly!  😆


I was set up! When I looked this morning I was like...that's not what I wrote. Then I saw the mod-edit. #fakenews!


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 28, 2021)

GOTWA said:


> I was set up! When I looked this morning I was like...that's not what I wrote. Then I saw the mod-edit. #fakenews!


?

I’ve actually been working today and missed that.

Paging @Kaldak -





“You and I have unfinished business”


----------



## Kaldak (Jan 28, 2021)

Ooh-Rah said:


> ?
> 
> I’ve actually been working today and missed that.
> 
> ...



Not sure what I intended to put there, but it definitely was not that. My apologies to both of you. Back to original.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 2, 2021)

I don't know what it is with these people, but they seem hell bent on making sure that the Afghan War reaches its 30th Birthday.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1356123805618417664


----------



## AWP (Feb 2, 2021)

BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!!

Afghanistan is the US' creampie. You don't pull out.

2 more years of Biden, can't wait to see what happens.


----------



## GOTWA (Feb 2, 2021)

Good. There's still time for all these Sergeants Major in the National Guard to get a combat patch. Sorry, your GITMO and Kosovo "deployments" aren't real.


----------



## Florida173 (Feb 2, 2021)

Fine...  Are they going to increase the BOG?


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 2, 2021)

GOTWA said:


> Good. There's still time for all these Sergeants Major in the National Guard to get a combat patch. Sorry, your GITMO and Kosovo "deployments" aren't real.


My last "deployment" was two months in a hotel in Manila ;)


----------



## Gunz (Feb 2, 2021)

We haven't given them enough Democracy yet. And the Pizza Hut at Bagram is offering a bogo on 9" Super Supremes.


----------



## GOTWA (Feb 2, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> My last "deployment" was two months in a hotel in Manila ;)


But only after putting in work with the nation's best for years on end. ;)


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 2, 2021)

Gunz said:


> We haven't given them enough Democracy yet. And the Pizza Hut at Bagram is offering a bogo on 9" Super Supremes.



Shit deal.   Five bucks, Five bucks, Five bucks!


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 2, 2021)

GOTWA said:


> But only after putting in work with the nation's best for years on end. ;)


True.  But my children and my wife still give me crap about it.  I should have pretended it was a hard assignment.

But it wasn't.  ;)


----------



## Brill (Feb 2, 2021)

Florida173 said:


> Fine...  Are they going to increase the BOG?



Civs & contractors don’t count.


----------



## AWP (Feb 26, 2022)

This thread was originally titled “The Collapse of Afghanistan Thread.”

Guess I kind of got that one right.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 26, 2022)

AWP said:


> This thread was originally titled “The Collapse of Afghanistan Thread.”
> 
> Guess I kind of got that one right.


AWP for President


----------



## AWP (Feb 26, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> AWP for President


The love of the people is enough.


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 26, 2022)

AWP said:


> The love of the people is enough.


I wouldn't call it love.


----------



## Totentanz (Feb 26, 2022)

AWP said:


> The love of the people is enough.


"They are my people!  I am their sovereign!  I love them!  Pull!"


----------



## AWP (Feb 26, 2022)

RackMaster said:


> I wouldn't call it love.


Love or fear yield the same results.


----------



## JedisonsDad (Feb 26, 2022)

AWP said:


> Love or fear yield the same results.


To quote Michael Scott.

“Would I rather be feared or loved? Both. I want people to be afraid of how much they love me.”


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 26, 2022)

We ordered some shit from Pakistan and I forgot it was a third world country.


----------



## pardus (Feb 26, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> We ordered some shit from Pakistan and I forgot it was a third world country.


Don't deal with those assholes, behind China, Russia and Saudi Arabia, they are our worst enemies.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 26, 2022)

pardus said:


> Don't deal with those assholes, behind China, Russia and Saudi Arabia, they are our worst enemies.


Mate, did you know that all cricket and rugby honors caps are made in Pakistan? And I'm talking all of them.


----------



## SpitfireV (Feb 27, 2022)

I haven't heard of such things except for that shit the Aussie cricket team wear.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 27, 2022)

SpitfireV said:


> I haven't heard of such things except for that shit the Aussie cricket team wear.



Here's one from the 2019 Cricket World Cup, didn't know people could buy them as mementos. 

England 2019 ICC Cricket World Cup Winning International Replica Commemorative Cap - Kilts 4 Less

And here's Nonu getting his centurion cap for ABs: https://e1.365dm.com/15/10/2048x1152/rugby-maa-nonu-richie-mccaw-new-zealand_3361703.jpg


----------



## SpitfireV (Feb 27, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> Here's one from the 2019 Cricket World Cup, didn't know people could buy them as mementos.
> 
> England 2019 ICC Cricket World Cup Winning International Replica Commemorative Cap - Kilts 4 Less
> 
> And here's Nonu getting his centurion cap for ABs: https://e1.365dm.com/15/10/2048x1152/rugby-maa-nonu-richie-mccaw-new-zealand_3361703.jpg



Ah I'd forgotten about the ABs' caps. I barely take notice of rugby. The cricket thing is new, too. Ridiculous things all around.


----------



## pardus (Feb 27, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> Mate, did you know that all cricket and rugby honors caps are made in Pakistan? And I'm talking all of them.


Ive never seen them before in Rugby. That's English public school gayness, and just one more reason to hate Pakistan. I really want to travel there though.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 20, 2022)

https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...T9on_2B160RLTDiXyg2yYzjO7nqqyUhCjFnhsXaCeJNWI

Afghanistan’s last finance minister, now a D.C. Uber driver, ponders what went wrong​


----------



## TLDR20 (Mar 20, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> https://www.washingtonpost.com/nati...T9on_2B160RLTDiXyg2yYzjO7nqqyUhCjFnhsXaCeJNWI
> 
> Afghanistan’s last finance minister, now a D.C. Uber driver, ponders what went wrong​



Him and those like him are what went wrong.


----------



## SpitfireV (Mar 20, 2022)

I thought that was an Onion headline for a hot second.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 20, 2022)

SpitfireV said:


> I thought that was an Onion headline for a hot second.


It reminded me of a Chappelle's Show skit where "Black Bush" was talking about how Kofi Anan would be selling fake hats in Times Square...


----------



## ShamgarTheJudge (Mar 20, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> It reminded me of a Chappelle's Show skit where "Black Bush" was talking about how Kofi Anan would be selling fake hats in Times Square...



Proof to me he isn’t, sir.


----------



## ShamgarTheJudge (Mar 20, 2022)

*prove


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 9, 2022)

Imran Khan has been removed via a no-confidence vote, wonder what that means.


----------



## AWP (Apr 9, 2022)

Set him on fire along with the rest of the country.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 10, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> Imran Khan has been removed via a no-confidence vote, wonder what that means.


I mean, do any of them make it a full term?  They either get forced out, arrested, “couped,” or killed.


----------



## AWP (Apr 10, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> I mean, do any of them make it a full term?  They either get forced out, arrested, “couped,” or killed.



There’s an AGM-114 or white Toyota Corolla joke waiting to be made.


----------



## Grunt (Apr 10, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> I mean, do any of them make it a full term?  They either get forced out, arrested, “couped,” or killed.


I like the modern term used - "disappeared". Yea, I like that one a lot....


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 7, 2022)

And there it is: Taliban Orders Women to Cover Their Faces


----------



## AWP (May 7, 2022)

The Taliban make it easy to predict the future...


----------



## Grunt (May 7, 2022)

The Taliban can't change their "stripes" as it has been bred into their DNA - whether by choice or force - it's there for the staying. They are liars among other things and at the end of the day - politicians.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 3, 2022)

Yesterday marked the one year anniversary of the fall of Kabul, hard to think it's been a year.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 3, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> Yesterday marked the one year anniversary of the fall of Kabul, hard to think it's been a year.



A bitter day for many, I’m sure. I still get a bit gloomy every April 30th, “Liberation Day” in Vietnam. Drink a toast to fallen comrades and to another Lost Cause.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Jul 3, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> Yesterday marked the one year anniversary of the fall of Kabul, hard to think it's been a year.


I got this from somewhere else. It helps me keep things in perspective. You can be sad or use what's happened as an ugly lesson in complacency. 



> Some of you Afghan Veterans out there are hurting, trying to make sense of what this all means. Including some of my peers, who are not immune to the feel bads coming out of this clusterfuck. So allow me to give you a different perspective, one that will perhaps sooth the pain a bit. I shoot straight, and this isn't all sunshine and roses. There is going to be some Grim Dark up front. But it does have a silver lining, hear me out.
> 
> Was this a foolish mission to start with? Yes. The only way to decisively win in Afghanistan was full scale genocide, which we knew from about 2003 forward. We don't have the stomach for that, and that is probably a good thing.
> 
> ...


----------



## pardus (Jul 3, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> Yesterday marked the one year anniversary of the fall of Kabul, hard to think it's been a year.





Gunz said:


> A bitter day for many, I’m sure.



It was the final straw for me, the reason I left the US Army after 13 years...


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 3, 2022)

pardus said:


> It was the final straw for me, the reason I left the US Army after 13 years...


Same. After 27.   Not the only reason, but the final motivating one. 

I’m proud of you for being willing to personally continue the fight.  I’m done.


----------



## AWP (Jul 3, 2022)

@R.Caerbannog parts of your last were pretty good (I know you aren’t the author) and some weren’t very good or accurate in my option for whatever that is worth, but that was a pretty good piece. I think the author allows their emotions to get the better of them at times, but the piece is solid overall.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 3, 2022)

Participation in a lost cause makes you a cynic. But I understand the draw a legitimate cause might have for a veteran of the former. A chance to cauterize the cynicism and bitterness and reignite the adrenal rush of a firefight.

I’ll raise my glass to you, younger Brothers and Sisters. There was much Honor in OEF/OIF, and in the GWOT, good intentions not always fulfilled, but fought for with great courage and sacrifice.

Of both those wars (and Vietnam) we can all take pride that even if everything eventually unraveled, it unraveled at the Top…not at ground level where the danger of death and dismemberment was, but in comfortable offices and conference rooms far from peril.


----------



## AWP (Aug 1, 2022)

https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/01/politics/joe-biden-counter-terrorism/index.html

Ayman Al-Zawahiri killed by a US air strike in Afghanistan.

Surprise!


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 1, 2022)

AWP said:


> https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/01/politics/joe-biden-counter-terrorism/index.html
> 
> Ayman Al-Zawahiri killed by a US air strike in Afghanistan.
> 
> Surprise!



Good riddance, motherfucker...


----------



## Salt USMC (Aug 1, 2022)

How did we find him and conduct the strike when we’ve been out of Afghanistan for a year?  Pretty amazing.

Anyway, good riddance to that piece of shit.  Are there any OG 9/11 planners left at this point?


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 1, 2022)

AWP said:


> https://www.cnn.com/2022/08/01/politics/joe-biden-counter-terrorism/index.html
> 
> Ayman Al-Zawahiri killed by a US air strike in Afghanistan.
> 
> Surprise!


Fucking finally. 

I wouldn’t be sad if the same thing happened to Sadr.


----------



## Grunt (Aug 1, 2022)

That is extraordinarily wonderful news indeed....


----------



## AWP (Aug 1, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> Fucking finally.
> 
> I wouldn’t be sad if the same thing happened to Sade.



What did her music ever do to you? She hasn’t been relevant in years. Bad prom experience?


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 1, 2022)

I'm glad he's dead, but I can't help but think "Oh good, another terrorist that the world has forgotten about and who has probably had little operational relevance for decades has been brought down.  Can you now please bring down my inflation, the border surge, and violent crime?  k thx."


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 1, 2022)

There's probably a point to be made about autocorrecting to a has-been pop star over a current world leader but... yeah.  [) corrected


----------



## RackMaster (Aug 1, 2022)

I'm just in awe that Biden approved 2 hellfires to strike downtown Kabul.  Even if there's no American's on the ground.


----------



## Kaldak (Aug 1, 2022)

RackMaster said:


> I'm just in awe that Biden approved 2 hellfires to strike downtown Kabul.  Even if there's no American's on the ground.



Funny how priorities change...Obama loved them hellfires.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Aug 1, 2022)

Are we sure he didn't just blow up in one of the vehicles we left him......?

"Emir, what does this button do?"

"I dunno, let's find out!!!"


----------



## Grunt (Aug 2, 2022)

I want to see some of that terrorist DNA so my inquiry mind can be a believer….😉


----------



## amlove21 (Aug 2, 2022)

RackMaster said:


> I'm just in awe that Biden approved 2 hellfires to strike downtown Kabul.  Even if there's no American's on the ground.


I am in awe that he was awake to approve the strike at 9 pm on a weekday. 



Marauder06 said:


> I'm glad he's dead, but I can't help but think "Oh good, another terrorist that the world has forgotten about and who has probably had little operational relevance for decades has been brought down.  Can you now please bring down my inflation, the border surge, and violent crime?  k thx."


This. All of this. 

I say this as a guy who has a *lot* of unfinished business in that area of the world. I guess I will have more to talk to the therapist about, but whatever. One strike from the agency on an irrelevant shit head doesn't change the state of the world, and only a very small group of people actually care about this. But hey, it's nice to be in the "in-group" for once. 

I am neither glad nor reflective about this guy's death. It's just business.


----------



## AWP (Aug 2, 2022)

This better not affect my agricultural co-op. Shipping “insurance” is already high as is.


----------



## Brill (Aug 2, 2022)

How UK spies watched from Harrogate as the Al-Qaeda chief was executed


----------



## CQB (Aug 2, 2022)

I say Jeeves, pour me a whisky, there's a good chap. More tea vicar?


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 2, 2022)

RackMaster said:


> I'm just in awe that Biden approved 2 hellfires to strike downtown Kabul.  Even if there's no American's on the ground.



Did you see what the Hellfires were? Apparently we have a non explosive hellfire.


----------



## Brill (Aug 2, 2022)

TLDR20 said:


> Did you see what the Hellfires were? Apparently we have a non explosive hellfire.


----------



## JedisonsDad (Aug 2, 2022)

TLDR20 said:


> Did you see what the Hellfires were? Apparently we have a non explosive hellfire.


Here is a link in regards to it. It’s old, but has good BDA photos.

America's Missile That Uses Sword Blades Instead Of Explosives Has Struck Again In Syria


----------



## Grunt (Aug 3, 2022)

Those things are a work of art….


----------



## AWP (Aug 3, 2022)

America: Develops Edward Scissorhands missiles deployed by pre-Skynet infrastructure using the same intel gathering technology used to circumvent our own Constitution.

Also America: Gets stomped by rock farmers who think a goat's ass is worth fucking.


----------



## DasBoot (Aug 3, 2022)

AWP said:


> America: Develops Edward Scissorhands missiles deployed by pre-Skynet infrastructure using the same intel gathering technology used to circumvent our own Constitution.
> 
> Also America: Gets stomped by rock farmers who think a goat's ass is worth fucking.


I stopped using traditional metrics for “winning” a war a couple years ago. 

I now go by COD metrics. Our kill/death ratio for the GWOT was outstanding. I’ll take that as a win.


----------



## JedisonsDad (Aug 21, 2022)

Guys, it’s okay. The Taliban are making Afghanistan safe again. Nangarhar no longer has ISIS, so stop calling it Nangarhood. It’s all just fake news from the western media.


----------



## BrassOverBolt (Aug 21, 2022)

From Insurgency to "governance" against another asymmetrical OPFOR...I'm curious how it feels to potentially have the shoe on the other foot post 2001.


----------



## Dame (Aug 21, 2022)

Holy shit. Has it actually been a year since that clusterfuck of an exit? And people still stuck in limbo. No wonder. State Dept told Joe Citizen "Hey, fuck off. We got this."
6,500 Afghans evacuated to UAE still stuck in limbo awaiting U.S. resettlement


----------



## DasBoot (Aug 21, 2022)

JedisonsDad said:


> Guys, it’s okay. The Taliban are making Afghanistan safe again. Nangarhar no longer has ISIS, so stop calling it Nangarhood. It’s all just fake news from the western media.


I usually only wear this when the Army Navy Game comes around, but I feel it fits this situation even better….


----------



## JedisonsDad (Aug 23, 2022)

This seems right.

Biden admin pushing forward with talks to return billions in frozen funding to Afghanistan: Report | Fox News


----------



## AWP (Aug 23, 2022)

From the article: "The U.S. seeks to avoid sending funds directly to the Taliban by setting up a Swiss trust fund that would hold control the funds and distribute them for humanitarian needs."

I have some very conflicting thoughts on the country, but I'll spare everyone that rant.

I'd release the money. I don't know that I like the above solution, maybe release a few hundred million as a "proof of concept" using the model above? Anyway, instead I'd give it directly to aid organizations. "How much will it take to keep people alive through the winter? How much will it take to run x number of hospitals?" and so on, then cut them a check. Essentially I'd contract with organizations like Doctors Without Borders or...whoever to keep the people alive for a few months until those terrorist fucks in the gov't figure out to run that toilet of a country.

I wouldn't give one penny to the government. I'd release it to aid organizations with some strict conditions, especially if the TB started extorting those agencies or charging them "visa fees" or whatever to operate. Afghanistan would eventually see that money return to the country, but not one penny would go to the government.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 23, 2022)

AWP said:


> From the article: "The U.S. seeks to avoid sending funds directly to the Taliban by setting up a Swiss trust fund that would hold control the funds and distribute them for humanitarian needs."
> 
> I have some very conflicting thoughts on the country, but I'll spare everyone that rant.
> 
> ...


Y'all remember Oil for Food right? Yeah that's exactly what this sounds like and the Terries will get rich.  We should realise that money as revenue.


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 23, 2022)

I wouldn't give any money to the Taliban.  You wanted control so badly?  You've got it.  And everything that goes with it.  If the people don't like it, hey, we left billons of dollars of top shelf US weapons lying around.  Pick one up and get to work.

I don't see any indication that the Taliban are doing anything in our national interests.  The poppies are blooming, they're letting AQ back in, and they are cracking down on human rights.  None of that redounds to our benefit.

If I did give the Taliban any money, it would come dollar for dollar out of the aid we provide Pakistan, because that country is the (or at least the biggest) reason the Taliban are back in power in Afghanistan in the first place.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 23, 2022)

JedisonsDad said:


> This seems right.
> 
> Biden admin pushing forward with talks to return billions in frozen funding to Afghanistan: Report | Fox News



Is this like giving humanitarian aid to Somalia so the warlords could have lots to eat?


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 23, 2022)

Gunz said:


> Is this like giving humanitarian aid to Somalia so the warlords could have lots to eat?


Exactly.  Famine situations oftentimes aren't so much about food shortage as it is about distribution.  Irish potato famine... Somalia... many examples.  The world the US will throw money at this problem, it will go into the pockets of the warlords and the Taliban (which often, but not always, are the same thing), and they will laugh at us while they continue to actively plan for our downfall.


----------



## AWP (Aug 23, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> Exactly.  Famine situations oftentimes aren't so much about food shortage as it is about distribution.  Irish potato famine... Somalia... many examples.  The world the US will throw money at this problem, it will go into the pockets of the warlords and the Taliban (which often, but not always, are the same thing), and they will laugh at us while they continue to actively plan for our downfall.



Which is why I'd give it to aid groups. With that said, I'd also have a set of balls to pull funding the second the TB interfered with distribution...which will probably happen as we know.

Realistically? Give a hundred million, 50 million, some "small" sum to the group in Geneva and see what happens. When it does, make an announcement telling the world why we pulled the funds.

Of course, we're A) Americans and care about optics, which makes us weak and B) Our administration's foreign policy is as coherent as Gary Busey on acid.


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 23, 2022)

AWP said:


> Which is why I'd give it to aid groups. With that said, I'd also have a set of balls to pull funding the second the TB interfered with distribution...which will probably happen as we know.
> 
> Realistically? Give a hundred million, 50 million, some "small" sum to the group in Geneva and see what happens. When it does, make an announcement telling the world why we pulled the funds.
> 
> Of course, we're A) Americans and care about optics, which makes us weak and B) Our administration's foreign policy is as coherent as Gary Busey on acid.


The aid groups are often part of the problem, as much of the money they receive just gets extorted out of them.  It's just a less-efficient way of giving it to the Taliban.  

We propped that country up for 20 years and they still can't get their internal lines straight.  

I've got an idea, maybe we can do a "grain for guns" deal.  We can give them a sack of grain and a goat for say... a case of gently-used M4s.  A cow for a Blackhawk helo.  A bushel of corn for a Bradley.  That will solve two problems for us at the same time!  ;)


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## SpitfireV (Aug 23, 2022)

Maybe the Pakistanis will know what to do with it this time. Third times a charm they say.


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## Grunt (Aug 23, 2022)

If it’s going to Afghanistan in any way, it’s going to the Taliban. I’m not for helping them in any way whatsoever!


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 3, 2022)

Good times. 


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1576959688356564992


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## Cookie_ (Oct 16, 2022)

I'm surprised this hasn't been posted here yet.

Biden calls Pakistan "most dangerous nation". 

He's talking about it in regards to their nuclear arsenal, but still. Maybe Brandon will finally shift U.S. policy to "Fuck Pakistan", which it should have been since about 2002.


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## pardus (Oct 16, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> I'm surprised this hasn't been posted here yet.
> 
> Biden calls Pakistan "most dangerous nation".
> 
> He's talking about it in regards to their nuclear arsenal, but still. Maybe Brandon will finally shift U.S. policy to "Fuck Pakistan", which it should have been since about 2002.


I remember reading an article years ago now that basically stated that the US has been watching Pakistan’s deployments/movements of the nuclear weapons in the event of terrorists gaining control of them and the like,  it annoyed the Pakistani government so much that they stopped using secure convoys  to transport nuclear weapons and instead were putting them into a bread delivery van etc. with two people to guard the weapons, so yeah I’d say we’re pretty justified in calling Pakistan a dangerous state. Not to mention a bunch of cunts.


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## Devildoc (Oct 16, 2022)

pardus said:


> I remember reading an article years ago now that basically stated that the US has been watching Pakistan’s deployments/movements of the nuclear weapons in the event of terrorists gaining control of them and the like,  it annoyed the Pakistani government so much that they stopped using secure convoys  to transport nuclear weapons and instead were putting them into a bread delivery van etc. with two people to guard the weapons, so yeah I’d say we’re pretty justified in calling Pakistan a dangerous state. Not to mention a bunch of cunts.



I think that's the plot to a Mitch Rapp novel...

Edited to add, Order to Kill.  Part of the book is about how Pakistan moves nukes around the country to keep them out of hands of various factions.


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## AWP (Oct 16, 2022)

Mitch Rapp sounds like a second rate 80’s porn star.

PK’s movement of nukes was published years ago. The story is so bizarre those idiots just might have nukes bouncing around in a MadEx (Madrasa Express) delivery van.


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## Devildoc (Oct 17, 2022)

AWP said:


> Mitch Rapp sounds like a second rate 80’s porn star.
> 
> PK’s movement of nukes was published years ago. The story is so bizarre those idiots just might have nukes bouncing around in a MadEx (Madrasa Express) delivery van.



Yeah, it does.  But those pop novels have been keeping me occupied during my chemo cycles.  I appreciate how art imitates life with that plot, tho.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 17, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> I'm surprised this hasn't been posted here yet.
> 
> Biden calls Pakistan "most dangerous nation".
> 
> He's talking about it in regards to their nuclear arsenal, but still. Maybe Brandon will finally shift U.S. policy to "Fuck Pakistan", which it should have been since about 2002.


Your post was the first that I heard about that news.  thanks for posting that.

I agree with the President that Pakistan is one of the world's most dangerous nations.  I'm not sure I would have said it in public, though.


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## AWP (Oct 17, 2022)

I'm not a fan of genocide, but hindsight being what it is, I'd have asked Churchill to leave all of the UK's chemical and biological stockpiles in New Dehli back in '47...


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## CQB (Oct 17, 2022)

AWP said:


> I'm not a fan of genocide, but hindsight being what it is, I'd have asked Churchill to leave all of the UK's chemical and biological stockpiles in New Dehli back in '47...


It's a dead heat between Muhammed Ali Jinnah & Muhammed Zia-al-Haq, both vying for Pakistani Cunt of the Century, Abdul Qadeer Khan close behind in third place.


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## AWP (Oct 17, 2022)

I hope y'all don't think I'm joking. I'm dead serious. Their role in nuclear proliferation alone is worth barrel bombs of anthrax kicked out over every city.


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## JedisonsDad (Dec 7, 2022)

This is progress.

Murderer executed by his victim's father - Taliban - BBC News


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## “The Old Man” (Dec 7, 2022)

JedisonsDad said:


> This is progress.
> 
> Murderer executed by his victim's father - Taliban - BBC News


I side with the Mother of the murdered man. This is the way it should be, JMHO. Seems like to me. That whatever passes for due process under the law of their land. Worked exactly as it was supposed to.


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## BloodStripe (Dec 27, 2022)

TORA BORA REVISITED: HOW WE FAILED TO GET BIN LADEN AND WHY IT MATTERS TODAY

Some good info in here with regards to the early days of the fight against Al Qaeda and the Taliban.


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## Gunz (Dec 27, 2022)

BloodStripe said:


> TORA BORA REVISITED: HOW WE FAILED TO GET BIN LADEN AND WHY IT MATTERS TODAY
> 
> Some good info in here with regards to the early days of the fight against Al Qaeda and the Taliban.


 
Waste of a good Daisy Cutter.

"Dalton Fury" should've changed the title of his book from _Killing Bin Laden _to _Helping Bin Laden Get A Nice House in the Suburbs_.


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## Gunz (Dec 27, 2022)

Our people could’ve killed him then. The AQ truce was total bullshit. The failure to send a Ranger blocking force was bullshit. The war could’ve been shortened. Lives saved. All the twenty futile winning hearts and minds nation-building multi-tasking we don’t really know what we want to do here years could’ve been avoided or greatly curtailed.

Tommy Franks was too busy enjoying his celebrity status, roaring out of MacDill with his entourage of black Suburbans to glad-hand the rich housewives on Bayshore waving their flags. Don’t have much respect for him after what I saw. None at all for Rumsfeld.


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## Marauder06 (Dec 30, 2022)

Biden knew press was going to 'kill' him over Afghanistan withdrawal



> 'I'm f***ed no matter what I say': Biden knew the press was going to 'kill' him after announcing Afghanistan withdrawal and fell into 'deep sadness' after Gold Star families turned on him at Dover​



Yes Mr. President, you are indeed "fucked no matter what you say."  Because there is nothing  you are willing to say that will make up for the giant cluster fuck you caused.  But you could start by saying "Hey, I fucked up that whole thing, and I apologize."

Not to worry though, no one's going to be held accountable for Afghanistan, least of all you.


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## AWP (Dec 30, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> Biden knew press was going to 'kill' him over Afghanistan withdrawal
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Blinken or Austin should have hit the bricks over that debacle, but like you said there's no accountability.

ETA: spelling


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 30, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> Biden knew press was going to 'kill' him over Afghanistan withdrawal
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Well, his son died of cancer, then his other son snagged that son's wife. Perhaps he shouldn't bring up his as a way to show an understanding of grief after he ordered someone's loved one to secure an airfield.  He should have said nothing other than "I'm sorry for your loss, and this nation mourns the loss and is forever in your family's debt". Then he should have extricate himself. But his handlers suck at life.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 2, 2023)

https://www.foxnews.com/politics/us...d-afghan-evacuees-suffered-260-million-damage

Averages out to $2100 in damages per refugee.  On top of food, transportation, health care, clothing, and other services.


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## RackMaster (Jan 2, 2023)

Marauder06 said:


> US military bases that housed Afghan evacuees suffered $260 million in damage
> 
> Averages out to $2100 in damages per refugee.  On top of food, transportation, health care, clothing, and other services.



Heads should have rolled over the whole catastrophe, from the top down. But one thing I've noticed is there's zero accountability for "leadership" on the new Left.  Both in the US and Canada.  Especially when the clowns in charge are no longer running the show.  The pandemic was the last straw in giving bureaucrats, across the board; power's they should have never had.


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## AWP (Jan 2, 2023)

Marauder06 said:


> US military bases that housed Afghan evacuees suffered $260 million in damage
> 
> Averages out to $2100 in damages per refugee.  On top of food, transportation, health care, clothing, and other services.



Not to be a dick, but this is the EXACT same scenario that played out when the Russians left. The Afghan response is only "new" or "shocking" to those without a basic understanding of history.

Americans are so undereducated it is embarrassing.


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## DA SWO (Jan 2, 2023)

AWP said:


> Not to be a dick, but this is the EXACT same scenario that played out when the Russians left. The Afghan response is only "new" or "shocking" to those without a basic understanding of history.
> 
> *Americans are so undereducated it is embarrassing.*


Yet SM tells us those educators deserve a huge pay raise.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 2, 2023)

AWP said:


> Not to be a dick, but this is the EXACT same scenario that played out when the Russians left. The Afghan response is only "new" or "shocking" to those without a basic understanding of history.
> 
> Americans are so undereducated it is embarrassing.


I think the main difference is that the Russians didn't bring 120,000 Afghans home with them after the war.


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## Gunz (Jan 2, 2023)

We managed _Frequent Wind_ so much better.


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