# Trump pardons ex-Army lieutenant convicted of killing suspected Al Qaeda terrorist in 2009



## Ooh-Rah (May 7, 2019)

Say what you will about Trump (and we say a lot) but he certainly is a Military fanboy.  Which I like....I think....but there is this *tiny* part of me that wonders if that is always a good thing?  

I don't know, terrorists bad....Military good....thanks President Trump! 

Or something like that.....why the hell am I conflicted about this Pardon?

Trump pardons ex-Army lieutenant convicted of killing suspected Al Qaeda terrorist in 2009


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## amlove21 (May 7, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Say what you will about Trump (and we say a lot) but he certainly is a Military fanboy.  Which I like....I think....but there is this *tiny* part of me that wonders if that is always a good thing?
> 
> I don't know, terrorists bad....Military good....thanks President Trump!
> 
> ...


I need to read a little more on this... taking a dude that’s no longer going to be in your custody, stripping him, taking him alone to a secluded area, interrogating him at gunpoint then shooting him and claiming self defense after? 

Am I missing something?


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## Kraut783 (May 7, 2019)

...sounds like premeditated murder to me.


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## amlove21 (May 7, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> ...sounds like premeditated murder to me.


Man, I don’t wanna judge and I get his legal team didn’t do the best... but right?!


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## Kraut783 (May 7, 2019)

...yeah agree,


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 7, 2019)

Not sure about the LT who got a pardon. 

But this LT... 

Hero or murderer? Soldiers divided in 1LT Lorance case

Should have gotten one first.  

FYI: 2 of the dudes killed were 
 proven IED makers and anyone who gives a shit should not judge him on the Army Times article and jump down the rabbit hole on the kid.  Just saying


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## AWP (May 7, 2019)

A potentially guilty subject walked because of posecutorial and/ or the defense team's incompetence? Man, that's just wrong.

Warm regards,

Simpson and Anthony, looking for the real killerz


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## amlove21 (May 7, 2019)

AWP said:


> Simpson and Anthony, looking for the real killerz


That’s a better buddy storyline than Arya and the Hound AMIRITE? 

But seriously OJ and Casey Anthony both murdered people.


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## AWP (May 8, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> That’s a better buddy storyline than Arya and the Hound AMIRITE?
> 
> But seriously OJ and Casey Anthony both murdered people.



They did, I believe that to the core. If we as people (not the forum in particular) are going to go down the rabbit hole of believing they killed people, but we'll give service members a pass solely predicated on "it was war" I think that makes us hypocrites. A lot of things happen in war that are justifiable, I totally understand that, I'm cautioing against knee-jerk exoneration just because a person wears a uniform and the act(s) occurred in theater.

I am genuinely concerned about placing our service members on such a high pedastal. The pendulum WILL swing the other way and when we no longer consider everyone in uniform a hero or warrior, that pendulum will swing hard, fast, and take out a lot of people. The pedastal is too damn high and unsustainable.


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## Salt USMC (May 8, 2019)

AWP said:


> I am genuinely concerned about placing our service members on such a high pedastal. The pendulum WILL swing the other way and when we no longer consider everyone in uniform a hero or warrior, that pendulum will swing hard, fast, and take out a lot of people. The pedastal is too damn high and unsustainable.


Absolutely co-sign this


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## Centermass (May 8, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> Absolutely co-sign this



You can't based on your credit history........


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## Gunz (May 8, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Say what you will about Trump (and we say a lot) but he certainly is a Military fanboy.  Which I like....I think....but there is this *tiny* part of me that wonders if that is always a good thing?
> 
> I don't know, terrorists bad....Military good....thanks President Trump!
> 
> ...




I know, man, it's wrong.

But based on the murderous bullshit that happens on a daily basis in a warzone...If two of my teammates had just been killed and I caught one of the fuckers, my neurotransmitters still going apeshit from the contact...I might've popped his ass, too. And if I got caught I'd be in a Redline brig.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 21, 2020)

so apparently fmr LT Lorance had this to say about the guys who testified against him:


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## AWP (Nov 21, 2020)

What a douche.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 21, 2020)

I co-taught a course with one of the lawyers who was involved in this case.  That whole situation was a mess.


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## Gunz (Nov 21, 2020)

Bad form, former LT.

What happened to take your Presidential Pardon and go quietly into the night? 

While I understand the circumstances that might lead to a post-traumatic act of retribution...you could've ended up with 20 to Life at USDB Leavenworth.


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## R.Caerbannog (Nov 21, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> so apparently fmr LT Lorance had this to say about the guys who testified against him:
> 
> View attachment 37021


Honestly, I think the guy has a right to be bitter. His guys went on CNN and other MSM networks and publicly denounced him, while he was sitting in prison. It's a small miracle he was pardoned... as the previous admin and incoming HRC admin were probably going to let him rot.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 22, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Honestly, I think the guy has a right to be bitter. His guys went on CNN and other MSM networks and publicly denounced him, while he was sitting in prison. It's a small miracle he was pardoned... as the previous admin and incoming HRC admin were probably going to let him rot.



From what I've read about the case, I think he might have deserved to spend some time behind bars, and his guys were right to come out against him.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 22, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> as the previous admin and incoming HRC admin were probably going to let him rot.


Maybe he deserved to rot?

ETA - Sorry Mara, didn't mean to double post you.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 22, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Maybe he deserved to rot?
> 
> ETA - Sorry Mara, didn't mean to double post you.


No issues brother.

As a general observation, I can see why there are strong feelings on both sides of this issue.


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## R.Caerbannog (Nov 22, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> From what I've read about the case, I think he might have deserved to spend some time behind bars, and his guys were right to come out against him.


Initially, I thought the same thing. One of my friends in college, who was in Afghanistan at the time, had a different take. The gist of what I understood was that the 'people' shot were Taliban FO's. Our conversation ended with him saying, "What's more dangerous, a man with a rifle or a man with a radio?".

Food for thought.



Ooh-Rah said:


> Maybe he deserved to rot?


Nope. The men killed were enemy FO's, openly calling rounds on our guys, who were then dumb enough to run a blockade by the same guys they attacked.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 22, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Initially, I thought the same thing. One of my friends in college, who was in Afghanistan at the time, had a different take. The gist of what I understood was that the 'people' shot were Taliban FO's. Our conversation ended with him saying, "What's more dangerous, a man with a rifle or a man with a radio?".
> 
> Food for thought.
> 
> ...




That's certainly the defense's argument, but I don't think the totality of the evidence bears that out.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 22, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Nope. The men killed were enemy FO's, openly calling rounds on our guys, who were then dumb enough to run a blockade by the same guys they attacked.


I ask the “maybe he deserved prison” question not because I could even begin to have an educated opinion on the case, but more because there is likely much we are not being told; not to mention that Trump has a history of making controversial military related pardons.

Trump issues pardons in war crimes cases, despite Pentagon opposition to the move

Add to that his willingness to overturn decisions for nothing more than military fanboy public support.

Trump Reverses Navy Decision to Oust Edward Gallagher From SEALs (Published 2019)


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## Marauder06 (Nov 22, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I ask the “maybe he deserved prison” question not because I could even begin to have an educated opinion on the case, but more because there is likely much we are not being told; not to mention that Trump has a history of making controversial military related pardons.
> 
> Trump issues pardons in war crimes cases, despite Pentagon opposition to the move
> 
> ...



I'm not a fan of Executive Branch pardons in general, especially pre-emptive ones.  T


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## R.Caerbannog (Nov 22, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> That's certainly the defense's argument, but I don't think the totality of the evidence bears that out.


I guess brother. Other than what my friend told me and the experiences I've had in Iraq I'd have to side with Lorence. Seeing the duplicity of men who tousle their newborn in the air, while hiding a cache of explosives and maps, has made me skeptical of the claims of uninvolved civilians.



Ooh-Rah said:


> I ask the “maybe he deserved prison” question not because I could even begin to have an educated opinion on the case, but more because there is likely much we are not being told; not to mention that Trump has a history of making controversial military related pardons.
> 
> Trump issues pardons in war crimes cases, despite Pentagon opposition to the move
> 
> ...


Have you ever heard the saying, "if you don't bend, you will eventually break"? Counter insurgencies are historically very hard to deal with, especially when the men who walk the halls of DC ask the impossible of you. In many cases, the realities on the ground are different to what the DC politicos forecast.

The higher echelons cannot have a zero defect mentality towards the ground guys, while tying warfighters hands with policy made on feelings or the political equivalent of the good idea fairy. This happens enough and your men become apathetic, demoralized, and disillusioned.

- Example of this lunacy: Word from higher up telling Joes to shoot to wound, when being engaged by hostile forces.
- Another example: Letting grown Afghan/Iraqi men abuse kids, cause it's part of their culture.

Add on: To clarify, I think these pardons have served as a sort of pressure release. Though if I'm being forthright, I think a lot of the guys caught up in this have been railroaded over actions that no one would've batted an eye to 50 years ago. Apologies if I'm coming off harshly, not trying to be confrontational.


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