# Syria Thread



## Devildoc (Apr 13, 2018)

...says it was very bad, and bad things a'comin'. 

Hezbollah says Israel's Syria strike puts it into fight with Iran

- Mod Edit -

3 seperate Syria threads merged into one

Rah'


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## Gunz (Apr 13, 2018)

The IDF would like nothing better than an excuse to bomb the shit out of Iranian nuke facilities. 

Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. Fuck whatever it says.


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## Devildoc (Apr 13, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> The IDF would like nothing better than an excuse to bomb the shit out of Iranian nuke facilities.
> 
> Hezbollah is a terrorist organization. Fuck whatever it says.



Yeah, kinda what I was thinking:  be careful what you wish for.  Hezbollah is like the 100-pound weakling that wears the "come at me bro" t-shirt, then spills a drink on a Hell's Angel....


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## Gunz (Apr 13, 2018)

Figured to move the military discussion of tonight's strikes here, rather than the Trump II thread.

US, UK and France launch standoff strike

Trump Orders Strikes on Syria Over Suspected Chemical Weapons Attack


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## Ooh-Rah (Apr 13, 2018)

Nice call, Al.


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## Gunz (Apr 13, 2018)

I guess we'll have to wait for the BDA before we know if we killed any Russians or Iranians. Hopefully this strike will be more effective than the last one.


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## Grunt (Apr 13, 2018)

I like the way Chaos is getting out ahead of the game in advising that Syria will undoubtedly be spreading some serious fake news before long.


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## R.Caerbannog (Apr 13, 2018)

Hezbollah and Iran can go stimulate themselves with a cheese grater. Garbage people, the lot of them.


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## DC (Apr 13, 2018)

Can’t wait for BDA report tomorrow.


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## digrar (Apr 14, 2018)

Some claims that they knocked out 13 missiles. Potential of those missiles being knocked out with pre-erected buildings seems pretty high.


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## AWP (Apr 14, 2018)

Sitting in London instead of watching “live” pixels kind of sucks. Early reports have most of our firepower coming from the Med and not from units in the Arabian Gulf region. 

The Soviet/ Iranian response will be interesting, especially if we do this again tonight.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 14, 2018)

Well, that’s one way to distract from everything that is going on domestically I guess.   And to show yours not a puppet of Russia.


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## Gunz (Apr 14, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> Well, that’s one way to distract from everything that is going on domestically I guess.   And to show yours not a puppet of Russia.




Wagging the dog, sir? Maybe coincidentally...but France and the UK went in on it hard and Merkel voiced her support if not her aircraft which leads me to believe the intel was solid and based on strong evidence.

We hit chemical weapons research/production facilities in the Barzah district of Damascus and one in Hom. Russia had warning, the buildings were evacuated at the time...and there were no Russian casualties.


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## RackMaster (Apr 14, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Wagging the dog, sir? Maybe coincidentally...but France and the UK went in on it hard and Merkel voiced her support if not her aircraft which leads me to believe the intel was solid and based on strong evidence.
> 
> We hit chemical weapons research/production facilities in the Barzah district of Damascus and one in Hom. Russia had warning, the buildings were evacuated at the time...and there were no Russian casualties.



Even though we didn't participate, our Foreign Affairs Minister condemned Assad and supported the strikes.  And coming from our limp wrist leadership, says a lot.


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## Gunz (Apr 14, 2018)

AWP said:


> Sitting in London instead of watching “live” pixels kind of sucks. Early reports have most of our firepower coming from the Med and not from units in the Arabian Gulf region.
> 
> The Soviet/ Iranian response will be interesting, especially if we do this again tonight.



The Russkies are having a cow over it, as you would expect. But they've been propping up these hotheaded fucks since the days of Hafez back in the Cold War and have gotten burned more than once. (A Russian tank in Syrian hands is just a burning hulk waiting to happen.) 


Russian officials warn of 'consequences' after US-led airstrikes on Syria


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## Ooh-Rah (Apr 14, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> but France and the UK went in on it hard


Listening to a BBC report on NPR this morning it was said France was prepared to go it alone and Thersa May was attempting to avoid a Tony Blair blunder by acting without Parliament consent. The spin being that the US participated as an overture of support to our allies.  Right.


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## Chopstick (Apr 14, 2018)

AWP said:


> Sitting in London instead of watching “live” pixels kind of sucks.


 Don't go out for sushi.


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## 256 (Apr 14, 2018)

On the chemical attack. Maybe I’m totally off base and I am certainly not educated enough about Syria. Could some chemical weapon accidentally get mixed in with regular munitions? It just seems that Assad would know that a deliberate chemical attack would land him in deep water with the leaders of the world (and a bunch of missiles).  General Mattis wasn’t sure yesterday/day before(?) then he’s certain. I’m not even saying they are wrong, just gotta hear what their of evidence


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## 256 (Apr 14, 2018)

Ambassador Haley has some balls!


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## Gunz (Apr 14, 2018)

256 said:


> On the chemical attack. Maybe I’m totally off base and I am certainly not educated enough about Syria. Could some chemical weapon accidentally get mixed in with regular munitions? It just seems that Assad would know that a deliberate chemical attack would land him in deep water with the leaders of the world (and a bunch of missiles).  General Mattis wasn’t sure yesterday/day before(?) then he’s certain. I’m not even saying they are wrong, just gotta hear what their of evidence




Assad uses chemical weapons because he has them. Why not? Aside from the fact that he's a first class dick, he's got the Russians backing him up, and he knows any Western response is going to be limited to cruise missiles or other stand-off PGMs. So far, he's even been given the time to evacuate targeted facilities. What's a few empty buildings getting flattened when he's been at war for seven years?

Trump announced that he wanted to pull the US contingent out. That was in late March. The chemical attack on Douma came a week or so later.

Assad doesn't give a shit what the leaders of the world think. Neither did his father. If Assad lost the support of Russia, things would be much different, but that's not going to happen...The Russians have been deeply invested and entrenched in Syria since the Cold War.


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## RackMaster (Apr 14, 2018)

This is a pretty good article. 

Everything We Know (And No One Has Said So Far) About The First Waves Of Air Strikes On Syria.


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## DA SWO (Apr 14, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Assad uses chemical weapons because he has them. Why not? Aside from the fact that he's a first class dick, he's got the Russians backing him up, and he knows any Western response is going to be limited to cruise missiles or other stand-off PGMs. So far, he's even been given the time to evacuate targeted facilities. What's a few empty buildings getting flattened when he's been at war for seven years?
> 
> *Trump announced that he wanted to pull the US contingent out. That was in late March. The chemical attack on Douma came a week or so later.*
> 
> Assad doesn't give a shit what the leaders of the world think. Neither did his father. If Assad lost the support of Russia, things would be much different, but that's not going to happen...The Russians have been deeply invested and entrenched in Syria since the Cold War.



What does Russia gain by keeping us in Syria?


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## Gunz (Apr 14, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> What does Russia gain by keeping us in Syria?



Nothing. Other than some occasional help killing Islamic extremists.


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## DC (Apr 19, 2018)

False flag. No evidence of chemical attack. All this for what? Weapons display? Shock and awe? We need to get out of Syria most rikitik.


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## SaintKP (Apr 19, 2018)

DC said:


> False flag. No evidence of chemical attack. All this for what? Weapons display? Shock and awe? We need to get out of Syria most rikitik.




Do you have a link for the claim that there was no attack? Either way the entire country and war has turned into an absolute soup sandwich of he said she said war crimes being committed by both sides at this point.


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## DC (Apr 19, 2018)

WATCH: Pearson Sharp Refutes MSM Reports of Chemical Weapons Attack in Douma | One America News Network

I’m thinking in my mind russia is playing a disinformation game to draw us into a shitstorm in the Middle East. Funding terrorists and Iran. We need to bail.


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## 757 (Apr 19, 2018)

Syria chemical weapons probe stalled after U.N. team shot at

"It was unclear who might have taken the shots or caused the explosion on Tuesday in Douma, more than a week after Syrian and Russian forces declared the town liberated from rebels forces and under their control."


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## SaintKP (Apr 19, 2018)

DC said:


> WATCH: Pearson Sharp Refutes MSM Reports of Chemical Weapons Attack in Douma | One America News Network
> 
> I’m thinking in my mind russia is playing a disinformation game to draw us into a shitstorm in the Middle East. Funding terrorists and Iran. We need to bail.



I like one of the comments posted on the article, they talk about how many people under Castro would say they loved him and that it was great living their, that nothing bad ever happened. However, when they immigrated to the US they would have stories of terrible atrocities being committed. 

I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with the video, because frankly I don't know. There have been so many conflicting stories on whether it did happen or didnt that finding the clear and detailed truth for anything is impossible anymore.

If the video is to be believed then what the Syrians are saying would make sense, how often have we ran black flag operations to springboard something we wanted? I don't know man...as Marauder06 said. Let the Syrians fight the Syrians and be done with it.


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## DC (Apr 19, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> I like one of the comments posted on the article, they talk about how many people under Castro would say they loved him and that it was great living their, that nothing bad ever happened. However, when they immigrated to the US they would have stories of terrible atrocities being committed.
> 
> I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with the video, because frankly I don't know. There have been so many conflicting stories on whether it did happen or didnt that finding the clear and detailed truth for anything is impossible anymore.
> 
> If the video is to be believed then what the Syrians are saying would make sense, how often have we ran black flag operations to springboard something we wanted? I don't know man...as Marauder06 said. Let the Syrians fight the Syrians and be done with it.


I agree. These false flags have been going on forever. Usually to garner political support one way or another.


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## RackMaster (Apr 19, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> I like one of the comments posted on the article, they talk about how many people under Castro would say they loved him and that it was great living their, that nothing bad ever happened. However, when they immigrated to the US they would have stories of terrible atrocities being committed.
> 
> I'm not disagreeing or agreeing with the video, because frankly I don't know. There have been so many conflicting stories on whether it did happen or didnt that finding the clear and detailed truth for anything is impossible anymore.
> 
> If the video is to be believed then what the Syrians are saying would make sense, how often have we ran black flag operations to springboard something we wanted? I don't know man...as Marauder06 said. Let the Syrians fight the Syrians and be done with it.



I've vacationed in Cuba and talked to real Cuban's.  It's not all sunshine and rainbows.  They'll tow the official line on camera or when being watched, cause otherwise the military police will be by later.  They also will do anything to get the hell out of there.


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## DC (Apr 19, 2018)

I have friends who were there in the che era. They confirm your description @RackMaster . I don’t think Syria is the same. Who knows. I guess I’ll wait for a Syrian to talk about it.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 19, 2018)

An addendum to my earlier comment about Syrians killing Syrians in Syria:

If Americans can kill Iranians, Syrians, Russian, and all manner of Islamists in Syria without risking a major regional conflagration, I'm kind of OK with that.


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## DC (Apr 19, 2018)

Still trying figure out why we need to get involved in Syria.


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## Gunz (Apr 19, 2018)

Just my opinion, but we're involved because we have had a vested interest in the Middle East for decades, with Israel, with Egypt, with the Saudis, the Kuwaitis, with Iraq, with the Shah; against despots, Saddam, Khadafi, Ayatollah's, the Assads--father and son, Islamic jihadists from everywhere...up to and including massive trillions of dollars and thousands of American lives...not to mention countering Soviet/Russian strategic moves and trying to obliterate the organized madness of ISIS that threatened everything we had worked for and fought for since March 03.

America has been embroiled in ME politics and conflict since at least 1948 and we'll continued to be involved as long as it remains strategically imperative--militarily, economically, politically--for us to do so.

Syria is one big shitpot in the middle of a region that is of vital interest to us--and to everybody else, for that matter. We're staying at the poker table one way or another, overtly, covertly, with guns, money and whatever else it takes to compete in the game.


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## DC (Apr 19, 2018)

I think we need to call it a draw and GTFO. It’s always about money.


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## Gunz (Apr 19, 2018)

DC said:


> I think we need to call it a draw and GTFO. It’s always about money.



It's more about maintaining influence, I think, as far as Syria goes. If we retain some element of involvement we have some say in how things turn out. As confusing and fucked up and factional as the situation is, if we GTFO we forfeit our chance to try to shape events to our advantage.

But I understand your sentiments. I just don't think there will ever be a time when we aren't deeply entangled in multiple initiatives in the ME.


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## Florida173 (Apr 20, 2018)

DC said:


> I think we need to call it a draw and GTFO. It’s always about money.



Have you spent any time working Syria recently? You seem to be big in calling this some sort of conspiracy theory false flag to strike the three facilities, but are still myopically thinking this has anything to do with only Syria... Or that it's maintaining sovereignty with so many various forces there.


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## Gunz (Apr 20, 2018)

There was solid evidence from multiple sources of chemical weapons use in this recent attack. The Russians and Syrians tried to sanitize the incident saying a "rebel" store of chemical agents was bombed, causing the release. That does not constitute a denial of chemical weapons, it only confirms it.


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## DC (Apr 20, 2018)

Florida173 said:


> Have you spent any time working Syria recently? You seem to be big in calling this some sort of conspiracy theory false flag to strike the three facilities, but are still myopically thinking this has anything to do with only Syria... Or that it's maintaining sovereignty with so many various forces there.



If you read back thru  what I posted I provided evidence that I can only say maybe true/false/plausible conclusion. No one knows. I think probable players were iran,russia, terrorists etc.

@Ocoka explained it best but I still hate it.


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## Topkick (Apr 20, 2018)

John Bolton was a leader for the Project for a New American Century. This group studied and openly advocated for domination of the Middle East. Not a conspiracy theory, it was a real organization. Something to ponder, maybe.


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## DC (Apr 20, 2018)

False flags are not conspiracy theories but military strategies.@Florida173

A false flag is a covert operation designed to deceive; the deception creates the appearance of a particular party, group, or nation being responsible for some activity, disguising the actual source of responsibility. @Florida173
False flag - Wikipedia

I think MAYBE the Syria Chemical Attack in Douma that we responded to was POSSIBLY a false flag. A military strategy to further our presence in the ME(@Ocoka ) as described.

I will leave conspiracists like Jesse Ventura or his ilk to develop “conspiracy theories”.


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## amlove21 (Apr 20, 2018)

Alrighty. So, the thread is about Syria. There is plenty of info out there, and we all have access to the same information. Draw whatever conclusions you'd like, but remember- when you voice those conclusions in an open forum, they're open to critique and examination. Just because someone calls bullshit on your position, it's not an "attack".

Conversely, throwing the bullshit flag at everything isn't the best way to foster honest and open discussion, either. 

Either way, keep it moving, stay on topic, don't take things personally, even if you're personally vested in the topic. 

And of course, have a GREAT day.


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## Gunz (Apr 20, 2018)

DC said:


> I think MAYBE the Syria Chemical Attack in Douma that we responded to was POSSIBLY a false flag. *A military strategy to further our presence in* *the ME(@Ocoka ) as described.*



@DC, you may have misunderstood my post. I don't believe the reason the US is supporting claims of a Syrian chemical attack is any "strategy" by us "to further our presence in the ME." First of all, we're going to be in the ME for any number of reasons for years to come...as we have for the past 70 years. We have a million reasons to be in the ME; we don't have to invent one.

To clarify, I believe the evidence and the intel was compelling enough to convince the US, UK, France and Germany that the Syrian regime had in fact used chemical weapons in an attack on civilians; prompting a stand-off retaliatory attack by three of those nations after ample warning.

Why are we specifically involved in the Syrian situation? We have to maintain some kind of foothold if we are to have any influence on the outcome of events...as well as to counter Russian and Iranian strategic moves, as I opined in an earlier post. Syrian chemical attacks have little to do with the _reasons_ why we are there. Again, just my take.


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## DC (Apr 20, 2018)

@Ocoka I understood what you were saying. I know the whys but want to understand the nows. You clarified my questioning of the background of now. I don’t believe it was a strategy by us either. I believe it was a strategy by others to get us to respond. I question if the Assad regime did it. I think Iran and thier ilk actually did it to get us to respond and possibly garner more support from let’s face it our old enemy russia.👍🏽


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## SpitfireV (Apr 20, 2018)

Who is "their ilk"?


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## Florida173 (Apr 20, 2018)

DC said:


> False flags are not conspiracy theories but military strategies.@Florida173
> 
> A false flag is a covert operation designed to deceive; the deception creates the appearance of a particular party, group, or nation being responsible for some activity, disguising the actual source of responsibility. @Florida173
> False flag - Wikipedia
> ...



Dude.. It's a conspiracy theory to think that it was a false flag to further our presence. The fact that you don't know what our presence is makes me think you're not really involved professionally with anything related to Syria.

Also. There's precedence with the chemical attack from last year. The proof was with the samples collected from the bodies.


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## SpitfireV (Apr 20, 2018)

It's my experience that professional involvement in something isn't necessarily conducive to understanding or knowledge.


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## DC (Apr 20, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> Who is "their ilk"?


Iran sponsored terrorists


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## SpitfireV (Apr 20, 2018)

Iran already has major arms and energy trading with China. What support would they want from Russia? They've got a pretty shitty relationship anyway iirc.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 20, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> Iran already has major arms and energy trading with China. What support would they want from Russia? They've got a pretty shitty relationship anyway iirc.



They want Russia to make sure that Assad stays in power so their Shi’a crescent to the Med and their threat to Israel’s northern border remain intact.


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## SpitfireV (Apr 20, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> They want Russia to make sure that Assad stays in power so their Shi’a crescent to the Med and their threat to Israel’s northern border remain intact.



For sure but things are already on track for an eventual Assad victory so...why would Iran or proxies make such an attack? It would seem counter productive to me.


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## RackMaster (Apr 20, 2018)

DC said:


> I have friends who were there in the che era. They confirm your description @RackMaster . I don’t think Syria is the same. Who knows. I guess I’ll wait for a Syrian to talk about it.



I've met several Syrian's that fled Assad and they have no urge to go back until Assad's head is on a pike.


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## RackMaster (Apr 20, 2018)

Sorry for the double tap.  When do we get delete back?


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## Dame (Apr 21, 2018)

This is a very good article on the reason Assad would continue to attack his own people. Herding those who oppose a regime into a concentrated area and then laying waste to it is unfortunately used more than anyone can prove. FWIW, I have no doubt this happened and that Assad is responsible.


> Dr. Monzer Khalil, Idlib Province’s health director, said such extreme tactics aimed to demonstrate the government’s impunity and to demoralize its foes. “It makes us feel that we are defeated,” said Dr. Khalil, whose gums bled after he was exposed to scores of chemical victims on Tuesday...
> Dr. Khalil, 35, fled his job at a state-run hospital in 2011. The Syrian uprising was in its early days, with largely peaceful protests that faced crackdowns from security forces. He said he was threatened with arrest for treating wounded protesters...
> Chlorine attacks continued — investigators from the Organization for the Prohibition of Chemical Weapons and the United Nations concluded the government had carried out at least three in 2014 and 2015 — with little international reaction.


Syria-Assad Sarin Attack.html


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## Gunz (Apr 21, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> I've met several Syrian's that fled Assad and they have no urge to go back until Assad's head is on a pike.



Last time I checked some 5-million Syrians had fled the country.


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## Gunz (Apr 21, 2018)

DC said:


> @Ocoka... I believe it was a strategy by others to get us to respond. I question if the Assad regime did it. I think Iran and thier ilk actually did it to get us to respond and possibly garner more support from let’s face it our old enemy russia.👍🏽



Respectfully brother, I think that's pretty far fetched. Why in the world would Iran or its proxies unleash a chemical attack in Syria? Assad has got the stockpiles of sarin and chlorine and he's been using them against rebel groups for the past five years. Iran is looking as always for strategic dividends from this, but it has no need to launch WMDs in Assad's backyard when he's more than willing to do it himself.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 7, 2018)

Putting this here because all speculation points to Syria. 

Pleased to see that our military is become more tight lipped about its AO.

Marine awarded Purple Heart for combat in an undisclosed war zone

A Marine was awarded a Purple Heart on July 27 for wounds sustained during combat operations in an undisclosed country. 

Lance Cpl. Dillon Bennett, a machine gunner with 3rd Battalion, 7th Marine Regiment, was awarded the Purple Heart at a ceremony at Twentynine Palms, California, for wounds he sustained during combat operations on July 9, according to a posting from the Defense Department’s imagery distribution site, DVIDS


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Sep 12, 2018)

^Awesome for a conventional unit!

I'm reading that shit might go down in Idlib soon. An article on CNN had Gen. Mattis saying this: 
"I never talk about what would come next," Mattis said. "But I think that you do have to look at the fact that *we will abide by the chemical weapons prohibition and support it."
When asked what the US has done to prevent their use,* Mattis referred to US, UK and French strikes on Syria after a chemical weapons attack in April. Assad "has been warned," Mattis said. *"The first time around he lost 17% of his pointy-nosed air force airplanes. He's been warned. And so we'll see if he's wised up."*

Too funny.

I haven't been paying a lot of attention lately, but Idlib is the last uncontrolled area in Syria, about to get taken back with help from Russia and Iran. What's going to happen afterwards? Are we just looking for a reason to get involved?


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## Gunz (Sep 13, 2018)

0331 from 3/7. Yeah, good OPSEC policy not releasing location...although if you're half-assed on the ball about current affairs, the military and open-source dope you can kind of figure it out.

I hope this young pig handler had a chance to feed the pig some nice ISIS meat before he got dinged.


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## AWP (Sep 13, 2018)

Army and Marine artillery/ HIMARS has snapped a lot of necks and cashed a lot of checks over the last few years.


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## Gunz (Sep 18, 2018)

Oops. Syria shoots down Russian plane.

Putin Calls Downing of Russian Plane in Syria ‘Tragic,’ Absolves Israel

The thing about Syria is, 60% of the time they can't get their shit together...every time.


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## AWP (Sep 19, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Oops. Syria shoots down Russian plane.
> 
> Putin Calls Downing of Russian Plane in Syria ‘Tragic,’ Absolves Israel
> 
> The thing about Syria is, 60% of the time they can't get their shit together...every time.



This is funny and ironic on levels most don't realize.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 19, 2018)

I still don’t understand why Assad would use chem, given the pearl clutching (and TLAM launching) that ensues after.  The only thing I can see is if he thinks that it will scare the shit out of the people there so bad that they will bail en masse and save him the time and blood of an offensive.  

Any one else want to speculate?


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## AWP (Sep 19, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> I still don’t understand why Assad would use chem, given the pearl clutching (and TLAM launching) that ensues after.  The only thing I can see is if he thinks that it will scare the shit out of the people there so bad that they will bail en masse and save him the time and blood of an offensive.
> 
> Any one else want to speculate?



The Russians. Their presence restricts our ability to react and even the Israelis are exercising restraint because of the Sovi..Russians. Assad knows he can use them and he'll take a hand slap or two, not the total destruction he deserves.


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## Devildoc (Sep 20, 2018)

AWP said:


> The Russians. Their presence restricts our ability to react and even the Israelis are exercising restraint because of the Sovi..Russians. Assad knows he can use them and he'll take a hand slap or two, not the total destruction he deserves.



That's what I am thinking.  Like Grover, from _The Christmas Story_, hanging out with the bigger bully Scut Farkus; without Farkus, he is exposed and not nearly as a bad ass.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 23, 2018)

So I know everyone is butthurt about Trump withdrawal of troops from Syria and Mattis resigning... I have a theory though. 

Who is a better alley Turkey a NATO member who has allowed us to use their country for military bases and staging our forces. Or the Kurds? Now I know the Kurds have been a great alley, they are great fighters and we have done them wrong for years,  especially when Saddam gased them.

But what if we look at the core of this,  they are very communist, they use revolution style terrorism against a NATO card carrying alley, and are highly militaristic in culture. Now whether they should have a autonomous region and self protected or governed is an interesting debate. But that's not where I'm going here, I think it's impossible for Turkey to allow them to exist on their borders.

Now, Turkey has the big military campaign planned out to finish off ISIS and take out sections of the Kurds that have conducted terror attacks in Turkey proper.  Erdogan, tells Trump get your people out or they may be caught in the mess. Trump goes against his advisors and says pull our guys out. Why would he do that? 

Turkey is no fans of Russia,  remember they shot down that Russian jet a few years ago. Right now Turkey has a mess on their hands, they have Kurd attacks in their country,  refugees and fighters bouncing across their borders,  then Russia launching military campaigns, Iranian clowns, Syrian freedom fighters, an unstable Syrian government, etc. 

Who is our better alley?  Who should we be protecting,  who is most likely to kick some shit off with Russia? Why would we want our people involved in that? 

We have pretty well shit all over the region,  destabilizing Iraq, Syria, etc.  Iran is flexing, Saudi's are flexing,  Russia is in the region, and Turkey is probably the only true effective military power in the region outside of Israel. More than likely, Turkey is about to establish itself as a regional power house.  Which means they are about to get bloody with a few countries. Being they are NATO member, and that we are retracting our global image or controls, Trump told the whole world to get their houses in order, etc, told all of NATO to step up to the plate, while being committed to withdraw of forces.  It only makes sense that Turkey would establish their dominance.

Anyway,  trying to view this from a larger perspective than the media hype. Mattis wasn't with that program so he resigned, I get it,  can support the man you work for and his policy, you move out and seek life else where.  My question is, is it really a bad thing, if my theory is correct, that Turkey establishing dominance in the region. It's their back yard any damn way,  outside of them about kill a bunch of Kurd's (which we have fucked over this way for years) is there any down side to this?


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 23, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Trump goes against his advisors and says pull our guys out. Why would he do that?


  If I am to believe the news, and the timing of Trump's tweets, he straight up made the announcement without even giving his military advisors a chance to balk. 



Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Mattis wasn't with that program so he resigned,


Assuming Mattis didn't know the announcement was coming, I would think it has more to do with the fact that Mattis never even had a chance to argue his point, but instead had to find out about yet another presidential decision via twitter.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 23, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> If I am to believe the news, and the timing of Trump's tweets, he straight up made the announcement without even giving his military advisors a chance to balk.
> 
> Assuming Mattis didn't know the announcement was coming, I would think it has more to do with the fact that Mattis never even had a chance to argue his point, but instead had to find out about yet another presidential decision via twitter.



I'll have look for it, but the story I read a couple days ago,  said Mattis was trying to convince Trump to not withdraw from Syria, when he announced the withdraw,  Mattis handed Trump his resignation.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 11, 2019)

Troop Withdrawal Begins: US troops begin to withdraw from Syria, official says


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## PDL (Jan 12, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> Troop Withdrawal Begins: US troops begin to withdraw from Syria, official says


So what was Bolton doing trying to rewrite the plan?  Trump needs to fire that hack.


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## Gunz (Jan 12, 2019)

PDL said:


> So what was Bolton doing trying to rewrite the plan?  Trump needs to fire that hack.



POTUS shot his mouth off about a complete withdrawal in 30 days without thinking about the consequences of that decision. Now, his staff is having to back pedal and amend that decision even as POTUS begins to realize he may have been precipitous.

This is the harsh reality setting in. He's lost his SecDef and his Pentagon chief of staff over this, both of whom warned that a 30-day withdrawal was strategically unsound and logistically impossible.

There are conditions that have to be met: Iran has to be kept away from the oil fields; Turkey has to give assurances it will not wipe out the Kurds; and remnants of ISIS have to be rendered impotent. This will take time.

This is not some renegade action by Bolton; it's a concerted effort to rectify a rash announcement and clarify policy.


----------



## PDL (Jan 17, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> POTUS shot his mouth off about a complete withdrawal in 30 days without thinking about the consequences of that decision. Now, his staff is having to back pedal and amend that decision even as POTUS begins to realize he may have been precipitous.
> 
> This is the harsh reality setting in. He's lost his SecDef and his Pentagon chief of staff over this, both of whom warned that a 30-day withdrawal was strategically unsound and logistically impossible.
> 
> ...


Those are impossible conditions that will never be met.  Sounds like those conditions are just selected to ensure endless war.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 17, 2019)

PDL said:


> Those are impossible conditions that will never be met.  Sounds like those conditions are just selected to ensure endless war.



Good point and you may be right. There may have to be varying degrees of compliance with those conditions...and who can guarantee, for instance, that Turkey will abide by them indefinitely. 

Nevertheless, a total disengagement and withdrawal in 30 days is also unreasonable, and, as it happens, impossible. I'll take Mattis's view on matters like this any day over Trump's.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jan 17, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> POTUS shot his mouth off about a complete withdrawal in 30 days without thinking about the consequences of that decision. Now, his staff is having to back pedal and amend that decision even as POTUS begins to realize he may have been precipitous.
> 
> This is the harsh reality setting in. He's lost his SecDef and his Pentagon chief of staff over this, both of whom warned that a 30-day withdrawal was strategically unsound and logistically impossible.
> 
> ...


60-180 days for on ground withdrawal, but maintaining air operations from Iraq under the current command structure in CJTF-OIR is more than reasonable.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 17, 2019)

It don't take no 60-180 days to pack up our ball and go home. For fuck sake people, POTUS gave the marching orders... Get it done.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 17, 2019)

Leaving always seems to take more time than going in.

Depending on how many people we have there, what stuff they've got, and how much of a power vacuum (and infrastructure) we want to leave behind, 60+ days seems reasonable to me. If we wanted to leave all of our infrastructure and most of our equipment in place, and divert all of our strat air to Syria, we could probably get everyone out in 30 days. Otherwise it's probably going to take a while.

I would rather the President have said, "In 30 days, I want a plan to withdraw...".


----------



## AWP (Jan 17, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> 60-180 days for on ground withdrawal, but maintaining air operations from Iraq under the current command structure in CJTF-OIR is more than reasonable.



The problem is that air operations are supported by sites located in Syria. To make up for that we have to launch more AWACS sorties and the second and third order effects from that alone are staggering. We could go with procedural control over Syria but then lose SA on Russian and Syrian aircraft that are more than willing to aggressively manuver around our a/c. Russia has done some downright dangerous things over there like launching crusie missiles through an active ROZ, spiking our a/c, etc.

And before anyone drops the OPSEC hammer, if you think the Russians don't know where these sites are located and what they do, I'll be polite and say you don't know what you don't know.

ETA: Before anyone says "how do you know this", I'm not going to play the secret squirrel game. I work in one of the regional C2 nodes and watch this play out in real time.


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 18, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> Leaving always seems to take more time than going in.
> 
> Depending on how many people we have there, what stuff they've got, and how much of a power vacuum (and infrastructure) we want to leave behind, 60+ days seems reasonable to me. If we wanted to leave all of our infrastructure and most of our equipment in place, and divert all of our strat air to Syria, we could probably get everyone out in 30 days. Otherwise it's probably going to take a while.
> 
> I would rather the President have said, "In 30 days, I want a plan to withdraw...".


My understanding is he said in six months I want a plan to withdraw, and Mattis didn't deliver, instead giving a slight draw-down and extended stay plan.
At which point Trump said no, 30 days.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 18, 2019)

Ouch


----------



## Brill (Jan 18, 2019)

AWP said:


> ETA: Before anyone says "how do you know this", I'm not going to play the secret squirrel game. I work in one of the regional C2 nodes and watch this play out in real time.



YOU were doing that same shit the last time I logged in!


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 18, 2019)

lindy said:


> YOU were doing that same shit the last time I logged in!



He was doing that back when you first joined the site ;)

I'm pretty sure he has more time on the ground in a combat zone than anyone else on ShadowSpear, and there's a lot of competition for that distinction.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 18, 2019)

He put the Hindu in the Kush...


----------



## Brill (Jan 18, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> I'm pretty sure he has more time on the ground in a combat zone than anyone else on ShadowSpear, and there's a lot of competition for that distinction.



And he surely has the bling...or divorce lawyer on speed dial...to show for it.


----------



## AWP (Jan 18, 2019)

lindy said:


> YOU were doing that same shit the last time I logged in!



One day I will shock all of you and go home for good.


----------



## RackMaster (Jan 18, 2019)

AWP said:


> One day I will shock all of you and go home for good.


----------



## SpitfireV (Jan 18, 2019)

AWP said:


> One day I will shock all of you and go home for good.



More likely you'll become some habibi's American bride.


----------



## SaintKP (Jan 18, 2019)

SpitfireV said:


> More likely you'll become some habibi's American bride.



Yasin: Habibti I made you some breakfast..
AWP: _Pantera in the background_ FUUUUUUUUUUUCK MONDAAAAAAAAAAAAYS


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 18, 2019)

AWP said:


> One day I will shock all of you and go home for good.



I'm pretty sure I have a Giphy for that.








holy shit Giphy has Princess Bride?? #winning


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 19, 2019)

lindy said:


> YOU were doing that same shit the last time I logged in!



Where you been clown?


----------



## Brill (Jan 19, 2019)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Where you been clown?



Moving, changing jobs, whacking the shit out of moles, all that jazz.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 19, 2019)

Well glad to see you ain't dead.


----------



## PDL (Jan 20, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> Leaving always seems to take more time than going in.
> 
> Depending on how many people we have there, what stuff they've got, and how much of a power vacuum (and infrastructure) we want to leave behind, 60+ days seems reasonable to me. If we wanted to leave all of our infrastructure and most of our equipment in place, and divert all of our strat air to Syria, we could probably get everyone out in 30 days. Otherwise it's probably going to take a while.
> 
> I would rather the President have said, "In 30 days, I want a plan to withdraw...".


Is it difficult because America doesn't have the support of Syria/Russia who control most of the country?

What about driving to Iraq and flying out of an airbase there?


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 20, 2019)

AWP said:


> One day I will shock all of you and go home for good.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 20, 2019)

Withdrawal is more than a question of logistics and a time table. Doesn't anybody think we owe something to the SDF and the YPG? Didn't we abandon the Kurds in 1991? They've fought, bled and died alongside us.

I guess this is a sensitive issue with me, having experienced it first hand elsewhere. As a nation we tend to turn our backs on allies we've supported. Seems to be a habit. We give them finger and unass the AO.


----------



## AWP (Jan 20, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> Post



There are deadbeat dads who haven't abandoned their children the way we've dumped our allies. We're lucky anyone, anywhere is willing to work with the US. Honestly, it is disgraceful.


----------



## Brill (Jan 20, 2019)

AWP said:


> There are deadbeat dads who haven't abandoned their children the way we've dumped our allies. We're lucky anyone, anywhere is willing to work with the US. Honestly, it is disgraceful.



Modern Kurds are like the chicks outside of every USMIL base ever. They know what they’re in for when getting mixed up with a military dude...they’ve heard all the stories from their moms.

Who’s using who?


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 20, 2019)

AWP said:


> There are deadbeat dads who haven't abandoned their children the way we've dumped our allies. We're lucky anyone, anywhere is willing to work with the US. Honestly, it is disgraceful.


For my own context, are you speaking specifically under the Trump administration or are you referring further back?


----------



## Poccington (Jan 20, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> Withdrawal is more than a question of logistics and a time table. Doesn't anybody think we owe something to the SDF and the YPG? Didn't we abandon the Kurds in 1991? They've fought, bled and died alongside us.



The decision to abandon the Kurds was part of the straw that broke Jim Mattis' back.

So you're in good company.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jan 20, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> Withdrawal is more than a question of logistics and a time table. Doesn't anybody think we owe something to the SDF and the YPG? Didn't we abandon the Kurds in 1991? They've fought, bled and died alongside us.
> 
> I guess this is a sensitive issue with me, having experienced it first hand elsewhere. As a nation we tend to turn our backs on allies we've supported. Abandoning the Kurds to their fate is just another dent in our historically damaged international credibility.
> 
> I remember the looks of our SVN counterparts when they got wind 2nd CAG was going to unass the AO. I still have contact with a number of survivors through the association I belong to...some of whom spent years in reeducation camps; and to their credit they are gracious enough not to hold grudges against their American brothers-in-arms. But our abandonment of them left a lasting bitterness against the perfidiousness of Washington foreign policy.



...and the Warlords in Afghanistan (Northern Alliance), they fought for us and we rewarded them by unseating them from power....sure, more to it than that (politics and "country building"), but the common soldier that fought with us believed in us. 

Not sure why anyone helps us anymore....


----------



## Gunz (Jan 20, 2019)

lindy said:


> Modern Kurds are like the chicks outside of every USMIL base ever. They know what they’re in for when getting mixed up with a military dude...they’ve heard all the stories from their moms.
> 
> Who’s using who?



Sure they're using us. All the indigenous people we offer to help "use" us. But they wouldn't be using us if we hadn't offered to support them for our own ends and opened the cash box and the toy locker.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jan 20, 2019)

lindy said:


> Modern Kurds are like the chicks outside of every USMIL base ever. They know what they’re in for when getting mixed up with a military dude...they’ve heard all the stories from their moms.
> 
> Who’s using who?


Real poltik requires us not to be emotional.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 20, 2019)

The Kurds are a odd deal. They have no strategic regional value. Outside of some oil resources, they tend to be more thorn in everyone's side then anything else.

They are laying claim to regions within 4 countries, one of those being a NATO member. They are very communist in their ideology and organizing, they have also used terrorism as a means to fight to control their "claimed region" and to retaliate against policing operations.

The up side is they are pro western, and want a modern, educated, civilization. The problem is that nobody in that area wants them around. That is a big problem for us,  when trying to stabilize the middle east and get the fuck out of there.

I think it's a shit thing to do, but I don't see how siding with the Kurds, staying there indefinitely, and causing tensions with a NATO ally is worth maintaining a relationship with the Kurds. Bottom line we can't stay there forever and all 4 countries with Kurds, would just assume kill them off vs allow them to form their own nation or autonomous gov/region.

Essentially it's the equivalent of backing a team for the Superbowl, when that team is not even in the playoffs.

$.02


----------



## Kraut783 (Jan 20, 2019)

The West helped create Israel, why not support a Kurdistan.....they have more going for them now than Israel had then.


----------



## Brill (Jan 20, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> The West helped create Israel, why not support a Kurdistan.....they have more going for them now than Israel had then.



Isreal has a right to exist. 

Kurds, while they have kick ass scorpion fight, support the PKK. Puts NATO in a tight spot.


----------



## Brill (Jan 20, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> Real poltik requires us not to be emotional.



Ha! Say THAT to the chick who’s wearing your maroon beret as she’s riding you.

Too much? Did I overshare? FF where you at????


----------



## Brill (Jan 20, 2019)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Well glad to see you ain't dead.



True story: @devilbones hit me up that he read my work blog on JWICS and remembered I’d been away for a bit.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jan 20, 2019)

lindy said:


> Isreal has a right to exist.
> 
> Kurds, while they have kick ass scorpion fight, support the PKK. Puts NATO in a tight spot.



Agree about Israel...was just a example of another group that no Middle-Eastern country wanted.  But  Iraqi Kurdistan gained autonomous status in the 1970 agreement with Iraq and re-confirmed as an autonomous entity with Iraq in 2005. It's not like they are a new thing....sure the Syrian fight has increased their land control, and does give them some bargaining chips they can use with Turkey.

Either way, it will be interesting how it shakes out.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 20, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> The West helped create Israel, why not support a Kurdistan.....they have more going for them now than Israel had then.



Turkey is the big dog in that A/O, they are a NATO member and they do not want a Kurdistan, anywhere. Iraq wants the oil in the north,  but the Kurds can deal with the politics of that as long as regional unrest continues. Turkey likely won't try to go into Iraq without our agreement. However, any stability in the region will lead to the Kurds being pushed back into the mountains by Iraq,  Iran keeps them there,  Syria will eventually retake their ground,  especially when Turkey stomps that region out and asserts their own brand of influence. 

Kurds don't really have a chance in hell. It's fun to say we used the Kurds or make the argument that we owe them something. The truth is we have done more for their cause then anyone else,  we have armed them,  equipped, trained and advised them.  They need airpower to defend themselves, and Iraq, Iran, Syria and Turkey will never allow that to happen.


----------



## SpitfireV (Jan 20, 2019)

AWP said:


> There are deadbeat dads who haven't abandoned their children the way we've dumped our allies. We're lucky anyone, anywhere is willing to work with the US. Honestly, it is disgraceful.



Well if you're going to align yourself with a major ally these days it's going to be Russia, China or the US. Lesser of all evils.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jan 20, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> The West helped create Israel, why not support a Kurdistan.....they have more going for them now than Israel had then.


Eh?  I think the Israelis would beg to differ on that fighting by themselves.  Only recently have they had good western support.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jan 20, 2019)

my point, Kurds have more going for them now that Israel did in their infancy.


----------



## AWP (Jan 20, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> For my own context, are you speaking specifically under the Trump administration or are you referring further back?



Further back. We treat nations and people like disposable lighters.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 21, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> my point, Kurds have more going for them now that Israel did in their infancy.



Israel had the worldwide Jewish diaspora, a stronger and more-effective nationalist movement, and most importantly, they wanted land that didn't have oil on it.

Ultimately, the Israelis liberated themselves. If the Kurds can do the same, then I'm all about recognizing a Kurdish state. But it's not our responsibility to help them establish one.

As to the notion espoused by others that we "owe" the Kurds something, we don't.  The Kurds didn't help us in Iraq, they helped themselves.  We did the same.  Self-interest is how nations work.  I don't think it's in our self-interests to support an independent Kurdistan, one that would probably have to be propped up by Western blood and money.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 21, 2019)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> ...I don't see how siding with the Kurds, staying there indefinitely, and causing tensions with a NATO ally is worth maintaining a relationship with the Kurds. Bottom line we can't stay there forever...



Don't worry, we won't.




Marauder06 said:


> ...I don't think it's in our self-interests to support an independent Kurdistan, one that would probably have to be propped up by Western blood and money...



Don't worry, we won't.


The whole question is academic anyway. I opined, from the point of view of someone who has lived and fought alongside foreign soldiers 24/7 that on the human gut level (the only level that I have any experience in), it's not cool to unass the AO an leave them with their pants down around their ankles. I'm speaking soldier to soldier, warrior to warrior, man to man. I don't actually believe that we'd stick around. Because I know there's no danger of us _ever_ doing that.

Point is, politicians don't have to look their foreign counterparts, guys they've been in the shit with, in the eye and tell them, "hey, man, we're bugging out and you're on your own..."


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 21, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> Don't worry, we won't.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




wish we still had the "heart" button for posts like this


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 21, 2019)

Shit
Shit 
Shit

https://www.cnn.com/2019/01/21/politics/american-convoy-targeted-syria-bombing/index.html
Washington (CNN)ISIS claimed responsibility for a suicide attack targeting a joint US and Syrian Democratic Forces (SDF) armored convoy south of the city of Shaddadi, Syria, on Monday, the SITE Intelligence Group reported citing the ISIS-affiliated Amaq News agency.
There were no American casualties in the bombing, Col. Sean Ryan, spokesman of the US-led international coalition, told CNN.
"We can confirm a combined U.S. and Syrian partner force convoy was involved in an apparent VBIED [vehicle-borne improvised explosive device] attack today in Syria. There were no US casualties. We will continue to review the situation and provide updates as appropriate," Ryan said.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 22, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Shit
> Shit
> Shit
> 
> ...



Maybe ISIS isn't quite ready to agree that it's been "defeated."


----------



## AWP (Jan 22, 2019)

This could be the worst pull out/ retrograde/ retreat since your parents circa 19xy...


----------



## amlove21 (Jan 22, 2019)

AWP said:


> This could be the worst pull out/ retrograde/ retreat since your parents circa 19xy...


I like that. It’s a broad, overarching joke that multiple focus groups can really dig in and get offended by. 

I haven’t been this outraged since my last high school Klan meeting was interrupted by a Native American Rush fanatic at a pro life rally wearing a hat popularized by the biggest Game of Thrones enthusiast America has ever seen.


----------



## Devildoc (Jan 22, 2019)

AWP said:


> This could be the worst pull out/ retrograde/ retreat since your parents circa 19xy...



That should be the title of a dissertation at The War College or something.....


----------



## amlove21 (Jan 22, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> That should be the title of a dissertation at The War College or something.....


At the very least the conclusion to a long overdue case study.


----------



## Brill (Mar 21, 2019)

Here’s a map of ISIS’s current caliphate:


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 7, 2019)

Trump Endorses Turkish Military Operation in Syria, Shifting U.S. Policy

What, the, Hell.



> WASHINGTON — In a major shift in United States military policy in Syria, the White House said on Sunday that President Trump had given his endorsement for a Turkish military operation that would sweep away American-backed Kurdish forces near the border in Syria.
> 
> Turkey considers the Kurdish forces to be a terrorist insurgency, and has long sought to end American support for the group. But the Kurdish fighters, which are part of the Syrian Democratic Forces, or S.D.F., have been the United States’ most reliable partner in fighting the Islamic State in a strategic corner of northern Syria.
> 
> Now, Mr. Trump’s decision goes against the recommendations of top officials in the Pentagon and the State Department who have sought to keep a small troop presence in northeast Syria to continue operations against the Islamic State, or ISIS, and to act as a critical counterweight to Iran and Russia.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 7, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> What, the, Hell.


It's okay....he's just trying to better communicate with the lower class voters who are uneducated and  get inspired by his tactical and planned insanity. 

Or something like that.


----------



## Box (Oct 7, 2019)

The policy dartboard - every president seems to own one - they swear that they are going to stop the madness - and then the first thing they do is start throwing darts. 

_Triple 20 - make a speech, drop a bomb.
Double 7 - attend a summit
Bullseye - move some troops_

Hell, the least they could do is stand a little closer to the dart board when they are entertaining themselves. 
I served on active duty under six different presidents and the only foreign policy goal I have ever really understood was "Russia, Bad" -  "tear down this wall" was pretty easy to follow but most everything since then has been a shit show.

I am a firm believer that our foreign policy should be easy to understand and should focus on a few simple goals:
-It should focus on immediate impacts on the national security
-It should at least hold the illusion that we are seeking a safe and secure global community
-It should address foreign trade in a way that OVERTLY favors Americas best interests
-It should attempt to champion human rights in conjunction with our allies
-It should invest our finest national treasure (American blood) as a very last resort and only when there is a clear payoff.

It isn't just the current presidential administration governing by the seat of its pants - it is the entirety of our government. 
Left - Right - Center - Left of Center - Waay Left of Center - Waay Way Right of Center.  It doesn't matter because none of them have enough sense to come in out of the rain.

Hell - there is no center any more - at least not one with a definable ethos.   I'd love to be be a Libertarian if not for the continuous perception that the only thing they offer is the promise of legalized recreational drugs.
I don't know if I should shit or go blind.


----------



## Brill (Oct 7, 2019)

So what happens to the “folks” in the detention camps?

Australia urged to act quickly to get families out of Syrian refugee camps


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 7, 2019)

MOAB...


----------



## ShamgarTheJudge (Oct 7, 2019)

So what about our Kurdish friends?


----------



## ShamgarTheJudge (Oct 7, 2019)




----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 8, 2019)

I'm totally fine with this move.  It's not our job to protect Syrian Kurds in Syria.  Those forces were co-combatants of convenience.  Turkey is a far more important partner, and an actual ally of the US.  Let Ankara absorb the blood and treasure of occupying Syria and combating Iranian, Russian, and Islamist proxies.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 8, 2019)

ShamgarTheJudge said:


> So what about our Kurdish friends?


The Kurds will just have to find their own...whey.


----------



## ShamgarTheJudge (Oct 8, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> The Kurds will just have to find their own...whey.



They’ll definitely need all the gainz they can get.


----------



## Gordus (Oct 8, 2019)

So long as the Turks don't commit another genocide ....


----------



## Box (Oct 8, 2019)

Clearly this is another one of those dart-board style strategic decisions that the President has been known to employ - but I just cant seem to make myself feel emotional about it.

We didnt go there to help the Kurds.  We went there to curb-stomp ISIS.  If the Kurds in that region had chosen NOT to partner with us, then they'd have gotten stomped as well.   I also don't believe for an instant that the Kurds partnered with us to fight ISIS.  The Kurds partnered because they are always on the hook for the idea that the US might finally help them establish a permanent Kurdistan if they help us shoot a few bad guys.
We are not IN Syria for the Kurds - we should not STAY in Syria because of the Kurds.
The Kurds are a partner force they are not formal allies.  Turkey is a NATO ally.

The Kurds are ONLY a partner forces because it benefits them - Kurds in Iraq dont want to be Iraqi - Kurds in Syria dont want to be Syria - Kurds in Turkey dont want to be Turkish.  Kurds in Iran dont want to be Iranian.  They just want to live in Kurdistan and they'll get in bed with anyone that they think will help them push a Kurdistan narrative.  I got pretty tired of listening to mumbo jumbo about Kurdistan by a group of Iraqi soldiers that really didnt give two shits about Iraq.  We are not in the middle east to fight for Kurdistan.  Kurds dont want to assimilate to any country - they just want to claim their own space and their only loyalty is to the notion of a Kurdistan.
I worked with Kurds in Iraq and they were only interested in one thing - Kurdistan.  Wear an Iraqi uniform, collect an Iraqi paycheck - refuse to be Iraqi.    Not all that impressed.

I dont really care how congress OR the Pentagon frame this.  Congress loves to arm everyone but American citizens - and they love doing it for all of the same reasons that Americans SHOULD be armed.
...and the Pentagon has never met an armed conflict they didn't like.

I've mentioned my thoughts on these same issues in other places - so I'll share them here since it is germane to the topic.  I like to consider congressional policy wonks and talking heads in the defense department along the lines of simple physics.  Quite honestly, the physics of DoD foreign policy, supported by the usual suspects in congress is quite easy to understand so I'll break it down for everyone by extrapolating Newtons Laws of Motion.
-Newton's First Law suggests that a General Officer at war will remain at war until acted upon by an external force.
-Newton's Second Law suggests that escalation of war is dependent on the forces acting upon the General Officer and the General Officers support in congress.  For any given General Officer, when the net support in congress is increased, the escalation of war is increased.
-Newtons third Law suggests that for every action (force) in nature there is an equal and opposite reaction.  The president can commit troops - congress will shit.  The president can withdraw troops and congress will still shit a gold brick.
Equal and Opposite.

It isn't just Trump or Bush or Obama or Bush or Clinton or Reagan or Carter or Nixon or Johnson or Kennedy - this line of thinking applies to any other president that has ever had to bear the weight of responsibility for American blood.  Otherwise, its just business as usual inside the beltway.  In their natural state - defense policy wonks will always find some reason to "stay at war" as long as they are being funded.  There will always be a milestone that we haven't reached.  There will always be a condition that hasn't been set.  It doesn't matter how much bullshit they parade in front of the troops that they are worried about dwell time or 'POTFF' issues.
_We still have US troops in Germany, Italy, and Japan and THAT war ended 75 years ago._

I cant force myself to romanticize any type of relationship with the Kurds.  First off- one thing SF guys are taught (or used to be taught) was never fall in love with your "G's".  Just like under-cover cops cant get in too deep with the criminal component - SF guys working with host nation or surrogate forces are NEVER supposed to make it personal.
Get in - make friends - organize them - train them - equip them - combat advise them as they fight on behalf of US interests.  Then when the fight for US interests is over - demobilize them.
Yes - demobilize them.

At least we are letting the Kurds keep all the shit we gave them.


_**edited to add**_
_- its also disingenuous for folks to feign surprise considering that this "overnight development" has been on the table for quite some time now. _
_Didn't every ones favorite Mad-Dog Marine General leave his job as the SECDEF earlier this year because the POTUS said he wanted troops pulled out of Syria?  Again - the laws of physics apply - a General Officer at war will remain at war until acted upon by an external force - and as far as the part of Newtons Law that states "for every action (force) in nature there is an equal and opposite reaction" - well, when Trump said no more war in Syria WAAAY back in 2018 - the retired Marine G.O. decided it was time to move on - equal and opposite reaction._








*"Of course, that's just my opinion, I could be wrong." *


----------



## USNSCC_Guru (Oct 8, 2019)

Some allies Turkey turns out to be. They're only purpose of being in NATO was during the Cold War. Now they've been aligning themselves with Russia and we had to boot them from the F-35 program because they were trying to fly our planes against the Russian S-400 missile system to sabotage the F-35 stealth capabilities.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 8, 2019)

.


----------



## Brill (Oct 8, 2019)

I too got suckered by the MSM narrative. It’s not that bad.


----------



## NikNifSik (Oct 8, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> I'm totally fine with this move.  It's not our job to protect Syrian Kurds in Syria.  Those forces were co-combatants of convenience.  Turkey is a far more important partner, and an actual ally of the US.  Let Ankara absorb the blood and treasure of occupying Syria and combating Iranian, Russian, and Islamist proxies.



Slightly disagree with parts of this. Yes, Turkey is a NATO ally, but they are not truly our friends. They have conducted various levels of subversion on almost every effort of ours over the past 6 years that it's not even funny. The Kurds, on the other hand, put us in a weird spot. They were there, ready to go when we needed a force willing to fight immediately. But they fail to take the steps to legitimize so that we can champion their cause on the world stage. I do agree its not our job to protect them, but I do think we have a slight (ever so slight) obligation to support them in their pursuit of existence. I like holding Turkey at bay, supporting the Kurds indirectly and holding talks with all parties involved. Are we ready to leave Syria? yes, when it comes to the war against ISIS. Do we gain an advantage by staying in Syria when it comes to other adversaries? absolutely. Guess the big wigs need to bet on what the next giant move will be from the regional players.


----------



## Brill (Oct 8, 2019)

Hmmmm.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1181669788357156864


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## AWP (Oct 8, 2019)

The only reason we care, or any nation would care, about Turkey is location, location, location. Their overt hostility to the US is starting to match their covert hostility. They are the definition of frienemies.

The Kurds...the US has a history of dumping locals who helped it, so this isn't a shock. The Kurds are on the hook for the hoopla as well for being naive enough to think we'd side with them against Turkey, Iraq, and Iran. Yeah, nah. I hate to break it to y'all, but we sold the Kurds out years ago as part of the deal to involve Turkey in the fight against ISIS. The day after the deal was announced I sat in front of our radar scopes and watched what seemed like the whole Turkish Air Force marshalling over Kurdistan. F-16'a, F-4's, all of the ISR...bombing the shit out of the Kurds, but now the Kurds want to boo-hoo in the press?

We've spent too much blood and treasure in SWA and for what? You could argue we're 1-2 in SWA since 9/11. Iraq and Afghanistan want us out of there? Cool story, let's see how long they last. Let their pride be their downfall. We'll have a nuclear armed Iran soon enough and that will change the entire dynamic of SWA.

I have no love for any of the external players in this drama. Let them sort it out and we can make nice with the survivors.

Edited for typos.


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## Brill (Oct 9, 2019)

AWP said:


> The only reason we care, or any nation would care, about Turkey is location, location, location. Their overt hostility to the US is starting to match their covert hostility. They are the definition of frienemies.



Turkey & ISIS are like Pakistan &Talib@n but without the boy sex.


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## AWP (Oct 9, 2019)

lindy said:


> without the boy sex.



I just lost interest in this thread.


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## Florida173 (Oct 9, 2019)

AWP said:


> The Kurds...the US has a history of dumping locals who helped it, so this isn't a shock. The Kurds are on the hook for the hoopla as well for being naive enough to think we'd side with them against Turkey, Iraq, and Iran. Yeah, nah. I hate to break it to y'all, but we sold the Kurds out years ago as part of the deal to involve Turkey in the fight against ISIS.



There was a time that Barzani was just a proxy for Iran.. Wait, that's still the case and we're the ones that switched sides.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 9, 2019)

Box said:


> Clearly this is another one of those dart-board style strategic decisions that the President has been known to employ - but I just cant seem to make myself feel emotional about it.
> 
> We didnt go there to help the Kurds.  We went there to curb-stomp ISIS.  If the Kurds in that region had chosen NOT to partner with us, then they'd have gotten stomped as well.   I also don't believe for an instant that the Kurds partnered with us to fight ISIS.  The Kurds partnered because they are always on the hook for the idea that the US might finally help them establish a permanent Kurdistan if they help us shoot a few bad guys.
> We are not IN Syria for the Kurds - we should not STAY in Syria because of the Kurds.
> ...




That was an amazing post.


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## Gordus (Oct 9, 2019)

This is my take on the situation.

IIRC Trump had announced a full withdrawal in 2018, but revised that if I'm not mistaken. Erdoğan kept expressing the possibility and will for an invasion intervention for quite some time now, so it was more or less expected to happen at any given point.

So when it is finaly going down, what happens when there are still U.S. troops deployed at the Syria-Turkey border, and there is the risk of confrontation between two (NATO) allies ? compromise and sacrifice. In this case, the Kurds are the sacrifice. What else would the U.S. do in that situation - start a war with Turkey ? 

Clearly the Turkish president wouldn't back off, and I think a huge part of it has to do with domestic policy. Erdoğan did actualy genuinely try to find a compromise with the PKK in 2013-2015, but because of those efforts, he lost popularity, and it strenghtened the opposition. His AKP party did also not do as well as expected in the recent 2019 local election, losing the absolute majority, and most importantly losing Istanbul. Twice. His best bet was to resume the Turkish tradition of zero negotiation and violent resolution in the "Kurdish question". Starting a military operation against the Kurds would ease the pressure against the AKP, and force the opposition to support the cause and his decision. Otherwise they'd lose voters.

So in regards to internal policy, that was possibly the smartest move Erdoğan could have done.

In terms to foreign policy, proper military foothold in Syria could prove a very strong political card to play in the future, at the conclusion of the conflict.
Lastly, besides the destruction of Kurdish autonomy in Syria, Turkey would be able to .... well, for lack of a better word, rid itself of the domestic Syrian refugee problem aka send those people back. At least a very large number of them.

AFAIK the U.S. ( and no other entity ), ever gave the Kurds any type of assurance that would guarantee their autonomy in Syria. The U.S. also never tried to make their case and pressure Assad to recognize the Kurds' status or have the regime impute collective rights and political representation. Correct me if I'm wrong.

So there never was a formal and thus there is currently no principal obligation. At least not that I'm aware of.  

It seems both Russia and Iran are expressing quiet acceptance of the intervention, probably hoping it will further increase chances of a complete withdrawal of the United States from Syria.

Strategicaly, that would make sense because they probably reckon Turkey is much easier to 'deal' with and pressure, than the United States. 
So this might indeed be not a minor victory for them.

Just my 0,02 cents.


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## Brill (Oct 9, 2019)

Critique on Congressional abdication of Constitutional authorities.  I don’t think the author is wrong here.



> If you want to stop Donald Trump from making unilateral decisions regarding war and peace, then stop letting all presidents make unilateral decisions about war and peace. It’s really quite simple. Trump can abruptly pull back U.S. troops from northern Syria because Congress, having abdicated its foreign policy responsibilities long ago, has no leverage to stop him.
> ...
> Presidents have been ignoring this arrangement, abuse authorizations for the use of military force (AUMFs), and imbue themselves with the power to engage in conflicts wherever they like, without any coherent endgame, and without any buy-in from Congress.



Hey Congress: Take Back Your War Powers, Or Shut Up About Syria


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## benroliver (Oct 10, 2019)

I’m not understanding the defense of this. How is allowing Turkey to wipe out the Kurds beneficial to us in any way? We knew exactly what Erdogan’s response would be, politically it’s a must for him . Indifference to the Kurds or not romanticizing our relationship isn’t a logical defense


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## Gunz (Oct 10, 2019)

benroliver said:


> I’m not understanding the defense of this. How is allowing Turkey to wipe out the Kurds beneficial to us in any way? We knew exactly what Erdogan’s response would be, politically it’s a must for him . Indifference to the Kurds or not romanticizing our relationship isn’t a logical defense



I've taken the liberty of editing & copying some of the salient points in @Box 's post in reference to your question.




Box said:


> ...We didnt go there to help the Kurds.  We went there to curb-stomp ISIS...
> 
> ...The Kurds are ONLY a partner forces because it benefits them - Kurds in Iraq dont want to be Iraqi - Kurds in Syria dont want to be Syria - Kurds in Turkey dont want to be Turkish.  Kurds in Iran dont want to be Iranian.  They just want to live in Kurdistan and they'll get in bed with anyone that they think will help them push a Kurdistan narrative...




The Kurds have been unofficial allies of convenience. Because they are a stateless ethnic group, we have no defense agreement with them. We had a defense pact with S. Vietnam under SEATO; we have a Strategic Partnership Agreement and Bilateral Security Agreement with Afghanistan. In Iraq there's the Status of Forces Agreement and the Strategic Framework Agreement.

All that sounds very legal and official and binding, but nothing--not SEATO, not the ESPA, not the BSA, not the SoFA or the SFA--prevents us from bugging the fuck out whenever we want. And if we can bug out on a sovereign nation that we were bound by treaty to defend, and fight alongside that country's armed forces for the better part of ten years and lose 56,000 people in the process...what then binds us to the Kurds?

The dilemma is merely a moral one. And moral dilemmas are not only entirely subjective, but in the tectonics of power often used as national ass wipe.


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## AWP (Oct 10, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> The dilemma is merely a moral one. And moral dilemmas are not only entirely subjective, but in the tectonics of power often used as national ass wipe.


One of Tom Clancy's novels stuck with me. I don't recall the exact quote, but it was something like international relations is just countries screwing over other countries. I think it came from Domingo Chavez initially, maybe in a convo to John Clark.


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## Kaldak (Oct 10, 2019)

AWP said:


> One of Tom Clancy's novels stuck with me. I don't recall the exact quote, but it was something like international relations is just countries screwing over other countries. I think it came from Domingo Chavez initially, maybe in a convo to John Clark.



Love me some Clancy and _Rainbow Six_.


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## Box (Oct 10, 2019)

Just for shits and giggles - I am not "defending" a position.  I am simply offering an opinion on the situation that is based on the facts as I know them.  Like I said before "dart board diplomacy" normally doesn't make a lot of sense so I am going off of my own opinions and experiences.

This current development is not a current development - the decision was made public a year ago.  If military experts want to pretend to be caught off guard, it is because they ignored what the POTUS said a year ago when he said he wanted troops out of Syria.
If troops in the region continued to tell the Kurds - _"don't worry buddy, we will always have your back"_ - well, then they blew it.

Fact:  Turkey is a NATO ally
Fact:  There is no such place as Kurdistan.
Fact:  Kurdish people are a heterogeneous ethnic group that can be found throughout Western Asia.
Fact:  In the past the UN Security Council has OPPOSED Kurdish Independence because of their destabilizing effect on the region.
Fact:  There is no internationally recognized political infrastructure associated with the Kurds.

There are countless opinions and assumption that can be gleaned from those five (relatively) indisputable facts, so how do we determine if any of this is beneficial to the foreign policy success of the USA?
Well, if you put up a SITMAP with some correctly drawn overlays - you would see that the Turkish military is conducting unilateral operations inside of Syria.
Let that sink in for a second......







The Turkish military is conducting unilateral operations inside of Syria !!!


That may not seem like a big deal, but even the USA goes to great lengths to build a "coalition of the willing" before we go attacking shit inside of someone else's borders.  Turkey just sort of said 'fuck it' we're doing this.  Add that to the fact that not too long ago, the Turks shot down a Russian SU-24 over an "accidental" excursion that lasted less than a minute.
Syria is held up by Russia - they have ALWAYS been held up by Russia and no NATO member has shot down a Russian jet since the Korean war.
...you'd have to have balls the size of the Ottoman Empire to do some outlandish shit like that in the current global political climate.

So - now for the down side - some ethnic Kurds are going to get pretty fucked up during this little soirée.

Coincidentally, those ethnic Kurds that are worried about Turkish aggression are also SYRIAN nationals that lived in that region when ISIS first started gaining a foothold.  Those Syrian nationals (aka poor innocent ethnic Kurds) did NOTHING to stop ISIS - at least not until the USA showed up and gave them a bunch of free shit.

The United States desperately needs a country in that region of the world to step up and establish themselves as the big-man-on-campus.  We are tiptoeing around the birth of a nuclear armed Iran that is doing their level best to become the number one tough guy in the region and guess what - we have a nuke sharing agreement with Turkey. 
That's right Iran - Turkey is flexing their muscles on the international stage AND they have a few of our nukes in case shit gets too crazy.  Iran may have shot down a superpower drone but Turkey shot down a superpower jet.  If someone in that region can help keep Iran in line, it would be Turkey.  
Or we could side with our long time allies from the great and powerful nation of Kurdistan.

Whether intentionally, or as a complete fluke based on the wildly irresponsible use of dart-board diplomacy, Turkey is now moving to establish themselves as a relevant unilateral presence in the region.  Iran, Iraq, and Syria all have "Kurd" problems that no one likes to talk about - but Turkey is dealing with theirs. 
...and for once, the USA is on the sidelines - watching the battlefield instead of bleeding on the battlefield.

Syria and Iran have made us look like punks on the global stage for decades and we have kept mostly quiet because we didn't want to start another cold war style proxy fight with the Russians.  Now, we have a NATO member that is for all practical purposes, openly killing Syrians inside of Syria and we are "staying out of it".   Our actions may mean one thing to an American observing via satellite from the USA but it means something completely different to middle-eastern folks living in the region.  
Now - if I am to believe the media hype and we don't save these Kurds, they are going to side with ISIS and turn into our enemies - no problem - the Turks are going to kill them off anyway.

Personally, I dont think all Kurds are created equal - some really do just want to be left alone - some only partnered with us because they expect a little quid pro quo in the shape of a map with Kurdistan on it.  Well - DOUBLEPLUSGOOD.  That means we did EXACTLY the bestest ever SF guy switcharoo possible - we got one group of Syrians to like us - then we got them to attack OTHER Syrians that didnt like us - annd now we have other folks in the region cleaning up the stragglers.    The Turks are just demobilizing our partner force for us.
...with prejudice

I would willingly and publicly agree that the situation is 'sub-optimal' and purely based on dart-board diplomacy, but when do we say "_enough is enough_" ??       Do we continue to deploy troops into harms way until all of our milestones are reached and all of our conditions have been set and all of our friends are dead??

What if we just take a knee, face out, drink water, and call for extract and let someone lese clean up the mess for a change?


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## Gunz (Oct 10, 2019)

AWP said:


> One of Tom Clancy's novels stuck with me. I don't recall the exact quote, but it was something like international relations is just countries screwing over other countries. I think it came from Domingo Chavez initially, maybe in a convo to John Clark.



_Clear and Present Danger_ IIRC.


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## Brill (Oct 10, 2019)

benroliver said:


> I’m not understanding the defense of this. How is allowing Turkey to wipe out the Kurds beneficial to us in any way? We knew exactly what Erdogan’s response would be, politically it’s a must for him . Indifference to the Kurds or not romanticizing our relationship isn’t a logical defense



So far the action appears to be very limited and do not yet support estimates of “wiping out” the Kurds.  It’s definitely concerning, no doubt, but I also think if PKK bombs were to kick off in Ankara and Istanbul, Erdogan would have a different kettle of fish entirely.

Turkey Interactive News Map - incidents reports from Turkey - turkey.liveuamap.com


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 10, 2019)

I've been tired of wasting Blood and Treasure in Syria since day one.


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## Kheenbish (Oct 10, 2019)

I can only speak from my interactions with Kurds in a 2015-16 deployment, but from my understand talking to guys in Erbil the Kurds in Northern Iraq want an independent sovereign nation of Kurdistan. The Kurds in Syria/Rojava want to have a sort of Kurdish state that still falls under Syrian rule.

These two groups, even though they share a culture or same ethnicity to identify as Kurds, have very different end game goals. We have provided more than enough to give them some sort of fighting chance.

With this understanding we set up a coalition with the YPG to help destroy ISIS and that's it, we never had intentions to hand Syria over to them afterwards. We aren't allied with Assad, but are with Turkey (to an extent). We haven't to my knowledge given Turkey the right to destroy the Kurds, in my mind they are attacking Syria the country which I could care less. If Assad wants to step in to defend his people go ahead, we should be done with that country once and for all. We had one job to do and completed it.

People want to cry world police all day during the GWOT until America goes it's time to take a backseat and say not my fight.


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## amlove21 (Oct 10, 2019)

Obama did this EXACT thing IRT Syria and that led to ISIS. Remember that? Same country? Red lines? All that? No? 

But now we are all good with a non-interventionist stance leading to the ethnic cleansing of a people that have fought with us for decades by a NATO ‘ally’ ran by a despotic dictator that’s turned his country to a theocratic regime that’s killing people? 

Oh, ok. Tracking. International geopolitics is fun!


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## Kraut783 (Oct 10, 2019)

A worrisome thing is.....Turkey goes after Kurds, Kurds search for any allies and gets support from the Syrian government, which is turn gets support from Russia and Iran


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## Gunz (Oct 10, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> Obama did this EXACT thing IRT Syria and that led to ISIS. Remember that? Same country? Red lines? All that? No?
> 
> But now we are all good with a non-interventionist stance leading to the ethnic cleansing of a people that have fought with us for decades by a NATO ‘ally’ ran by a despotic dictator that’s turned his country to a theocratic regime that’s killing people?
> 
> Oh, ok. Tracking. International geopolitics is fun!




I still haven't got over leaving our counterparts in Southeast Asia with their dicks in their hands 44 years ago. So I'm not "good" with it. I've never been good handling the moral dilemma of bugging out on people who face possible annihilation because of our departure. But I'm not a politician or a power-broker. 

The politicians who make these decisions deal with other politicians who are equally detached from the human element. There's no contradiction in what I wrote above and what I'm writing now. It's historically inevitable that those who lead nations  sometimes choose national or international political interests at the expense of their allies or partisan groups to whom they've pledged support.

A soldier can spend a lifetime looking into his bourbon wondering about it, but the decision to leave or stay was never his.


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## Florida173 (Oct 10, 2019)

PKK is a maoist separatist group. Even when KRG/PDK Barzani offered to help mediate Turkey and PKK negotiations, the PKK refused. 

But Barzani is pretty much a mobster... Remember the whole 1974 Barzani rebellion that led to the Iran-Iraq war where we were supporting efforts against the Kurds/Iranians?


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## Kheenbish (Oct 10, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> Obama did this EXACT thing IRT Syria and that led to ISIS. Remember that? Same country? Red lines? All that? No?
> 
> But now we are all good with a non-interventionist stance leading to the ethnic cleansing of a people that have fought with us for decades by a NATO ‘ally’ ran by a despotic dictator that’s turned his country to a theocratic regime that’s killing people?
> 
> Oh, ok. Tracking. International geopolitics is fun!



Come on now, "an ethnic cleansing of a people?". That's quite a stretch and a bit out of context. I don't remember seeing that Turkey is attacking the kurds based off their ethnicity. 

If ethnic cleansing is the case, then where is the crazy outcry for attacking China based on the actual ethnic cleansing they are doing against the Uyghurs? 

This is an ugly scene and there is no perfect answer, but I believe at some point America can't be involved everywhere considering we have bigger enemies to combat in the world.


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## amlove21 (Oct 10, 2019)

Kheenbish said:


> Come on now, "an ethnic cleansing of a people?". That's quite a stretch and a bit out of context.


Bro. Do you think I came up with this on my own? 

Syrian Kurds fear 'ethnic cleansing' after US troop pullout announcement

Netanyahu warns against Turkey's ethnic cleansing of 'gallant Kurds'; vows to assist

Remember the Armenian genocide? At the hands of Turkey? 

That places this in the ‘definitely not a stretch because Turkey commits genocide’ and ‘in context because smarts people than you and I are calling that ball.’


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## Kheenbish (Oct 10, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> Bro. Do you think I came up with this on my own?
> 
> Syrian Kurds fear 'ethnic cleansing' after US troop pullout announcement
> 
> ...



I guess if you consider Netanyahu smarter than you and I...

I'm saying Turkey hasn't committed to wiping out all the Kurdish people from Earth, which would be an ethnic cleansing to include the Kurds in Iraq. Right now they have committed to clearing the border of their country which is controlled by the SDF/YPG/PKK.

As Americans we tend to jump the gun quite a bit just to bitch and forget a week later. So playing devils advocate what if we supported a terrorist organization (YPG) to kill another terrorist organization (ISIS), do we just continue those goals? Support the organization and empower them to attack civilians in a country. 

Like you said smarter individuals than you and I make those decisions, if it leads to genocide I'm sure we will be back in country within a few months. 

Note: Not saying YPG is or isn't a terrorist organization, just giving a what if scenario.


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## AWP (Oct 10, 2019)

Box said:


> Add that to the fact that not too long ago, the Turks shot down a Russian SU-24 over an "accidental" excursion that lasted less than a minute.



I have the raw radar data from the exchange and watched it several times. The Russian repeatedly busted Turkish airspace, his orbit took him across the border, before the Turks engaged. They fired a missle over Turkey that shot him down over Syria. The Turks never violated Syrian airspace.



Kheenbish said:


> Come on now, "an ethnic cleansing of a people?". That's quite a stretch and a bit out of context. I don't remember seeing that Turkey is attacking the kurds based off their ethnicity.



Actually, that's exactly what they are doing and have done for years. Turkey, Iran, and Iraq see the Kurds as a threat and would gladly kill every last one of them because the Kurds want a land of their own...for the Kurds and the Kurds only.


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## Kheenbish (Oct 10, 2019)

AWP said:


> Actually, that's exactly what they are doing and have done for years. Turkey, Iran, and Iraq see the Kurds as a threat and would gladly kill every last one of them because the Kurds want a land of their own...for the Kurds and the Kurds only.



I fully understand and agree that quite a few ME countries hate the Kurds for the Kurdish people want to take land away from those countries to establish their own country. But I wouldn't consider attacking the Kurds an ethnic cleansing by the Turks. 

If that was the case we've been doing ethnic cleansing for some time and I dont believe that to be the case either. It's war and politics. The cycle will continue forever.


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## AWP (Oct 10, 2019)

Kheenbish said:


> I fully understand and agree that quite a few ME countries hate the Kurds for the Kurdish people want to take land away from those countries to establish their own country. But I wouldn't consider attacking the Kurds an ethnic cleansing by the Turks.
> 
> If that was the case we've been doing ethnic cleansing for some time and I dont believe that to be the case either. It's war and politics. The cycle will continue forever.



I think we're looking at the same problem but from different angles. With that said, if the Turkish army starts intentionally killing civilians then I see no other choice but to call it genocide.


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## Kheenbish (Oct 11, 2019)

AWP said:


> I think we're looking at the same problem but from different angles. With that said, if the Turkish army starts intentionally killing civilians then I see no other choice but to call it genocide.


Agreed. Unfortunately I can't predict if we would actually get involved again...especially getting closer to election time.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 11, 2019)

So...
Exclusive: Turkey bombs US special forces in Syria attack, apparently by mistake

We announce that we're bugging out...we don't bug out...still this is fucking insane.


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## Gunz (Oct 11, 2019)

.


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## amlove21 (Oct 11, 2019)

“Oops”. 

Turkey was quoted as saying, ‘Seriously guys, our bad.’


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## benroliver (Oct 11, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> So...
> Exclusive: Turkey bombs US special forces in Syria attack, apparently by mistake
> 
> We announce that we're bugging out...we don't bug out...still this is fucking insane.


 
I had a feeling this post was coming, I was really hoping this wouldn’t happen 😡


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## AWP (Oct 11, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> “Oops”.
> 
> Turkey was quoted as saying, ‘Seriously guys, our bad.’



Which is pure madness given the BMC2 assets at our disposal. My opinion is that this was intentional, because there's no way...no fucking way our C2 assets wouldn't have warned them off. We have too many controls in place, too many sensors, too many radios for this to happen as an "accident."


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## amlove21 (Oct 11, 2019)

AWP said:


> Which is pure madness given the BMC2 assets at our disposal. My opinion is that this was intentional, because there's no way...no fucking way our C2 assets wouldn't have warned them off. We have too many controls in place, too many sensors, too many radios for this to happen as an "accident."


Yeah no shit. But our ‘ally’ turkey had only been shackled by the fact that we admitted to having troops there. 50 troops on the ground stopped Turkey from doing this in the past. 

This ‘dartboard foreign policy decision’ to pull everyone out opened the door to the murder of civilians AND putting our own troops in danger. 

And if you think that wasn’t a measured and manipulated move- waiting for the announcement from our president saying we were leaving and then ‘accidentally’ hitting our troops- by Turkey I have a bridge for you. 

Well, at least I get to watch the ‘total and complete destruction of Turkey via sanctions by our ‘very stable genius’ who’s wisdom can’t be matched. 

I’ll hold my breath.


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## Brill (Oct 12, 2019)

AWP said:


> ...too many sensors, too many radios for this to happen as an "accident."



I assume the Turks do as well.


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## Gordus (Oct 12, 2019)

Might be a stunt, assuming it was intentional. Trump's withdrawal order was the prerequisite for  Erdoğan's "Safe Zone", so that in itself was quite a political victory. If the U.S. were not willing to back off in that area I doubt he would have ever green lit that operation. So, since it's factualy sealed that U.S. forces will abandon their positions at the border and not engage or stand in their way, he might as well act tough and signal / force U.S. forces to bugger out, as long as nobody gets hurt. That will only strenghten his image in Turkey as strong leader. Especialy for the dreamy ultranationalists who wished the "Ottoman Empire" was restored. I think standing up to the most powerful country and see them give way is not a minor political victory.


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## Gordus (Oct 12, 2019)

Especialy internaly. So I can see them push their luck a bit further in the future.


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## R.Caerbannog (Oct 12, 2019)

Spitballing, we could cut foreign aid and refugee assistance to Turkey, let them deal with their own mess (especially in pro Edrogan areas). We also need to find a way to burn Edrogan's associates, ban them from doing business in the US, and target the foreign assets of his political supporters. 

This whole business of treating Turkey and Islam with kid gloves needs to stop.


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## Grunt (Oct 12, 2019)

R.Caerbannog said:


> ...This whole business of treating Turkey and Islam with kid gloves needs to stop.



That needs to happen in a lot of areas of the world. But then again, I'm getting old and becoming more of an isolationist every day.


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## Gunz (Oct 12, 2019)

AWP said:


> Which is pure madness given the BMC2 assets at our disposal. My opinion is that this was intentional, because there's no way...no fucking way our C2 assets wouldn't have warned them off. We have too many controls in place, too many sensors, too many radios for this to happen as an "accident."




This may be a dumb question, but is Turkey, as a NATO member, integrated into the BMC2 system? I mean, with all the various players conducting tactical operations in the region, isn't BMC2 supposed to coordinate much of that activity? 

And if so, shouldn't they have known where our people were?


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## AWP (Oct 12, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> This may be a dumb question, but is Turkey, as a NATO member, integrated into the BMC2 system? I mean, with all the various players conducting tactical operations in the region, isn't BMC2 supposed to coordinate much of that activity?
> 
> And if so, shouldn't they have known where our people were?



Yes they are and yes they knew. They were just flexing nuts.


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## amlove21 (Oct 12, 2019)

Any of you isolationist/non-interventionist types wanna weigh in on 1,500 more troops to Saudi Arabia? The president said it was to ‘stop endless wars’.


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## Grunt (Oct 12, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> Any of you isolationist/non-interventionist types wanna way in on 1,500 more troops to Saudi Arabia? The president said it was to ‘stop endless wars’.



He isn't going to stop endless wars in an area of the world that has known war for its total existence. That is simply his opinion and it isn't worth much in that arena. But, that's just my opinion which is only worth about one chunk of coal in todays market....


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## AWP (Oct 12, 2019)

Does our country even have a foreign policy in SWA or do we make shit up as we go? We appear to be very reactionary instead of driving the bus and have for some years now.


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## Kraut783 (Oct 12, 2019)

So...ISIS won’t reform as a force on the ground, they learned their lesson. They will now be a insurgency, and be more of a problem for us and the west......just...awesome...


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## Gunz (Oct 13, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> So...ISIS won’t reform as a force on the ground, they learned their lesson. They will now be a insurgency, and be more of a problem for us and the west......just...awesome...



But wasn't that inevitable anyway regardless of present circumstances? I remember this being discussed when we first sent assets to join the war on ISIS. That once we killed the targets in the open they'd run for the shadows like cockroaches when the kitchen light comes on.

Doesn't seem to me that there was ever much of an option for them. Stand your ground and die...or play hit and run to keep the dream alive.


----------



## Brill (Oct 13, 2019)

For context (from CNN):



> The Pentagon said Friday that the *deployment to Saudi Arabia will include two fighter squadrons, one air expeditionary wing, two Patriot batteries and one Terminal High Altitude Area Defense (THAAD) system.* Defense Department officials said they had sent 200 troops in September and 1,000 troops earlier in October, plus an additional 1,800 being sent Friday. Initially, officials had said "about 1,500" troops would be sent before clarifying with the higher number.



Actual Pentagon press release:
DOD Statement on Deployment of Additional U.S. Forces and Equipment to


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## Kraut783 (Oct 13, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> But wasn't that inevitable anyway regardless of present circumstances? I remember this being discussed when we first sent assets to join the war on ISIS. That once we killed the targets in the open they'd run for the shadows like cockroaches when the kitchen light comes on.
> 
> Doesn't seem to me that there was ever much of an option for them. Stand your ground and die...or play hit and run to keep the dream alive.



It was, it is just a shame that so many of them who were captured/surrendered to be able to leave the camps.


----------



## AWP (Oct 13, 2019)

lindy said:


> For context (from CNN):
> Actual Pentagon press release:
> DOD Statement on Deployment of Additional U.S. Forces and Equipment to



We've been itching (and the KSA has to a certain extent) to put forces back in Saudi for some time now. Iran's just given us a reason.

Hell, at least we aren't concocting stories of WMD this time around (the day ain't over...).


----------



## Brill (Oct 13, 2019)

AWP said:


> We've been itching (and the KSA has to a certain extent) to put forces back in Saudi for some time now. Iran's just given us a reason.
> 
> Hell, at least we aren't concocting stories of WMD this time around (the day ain't over...).



At least we’re not “in the land of the two holy mosques.” Oh wait...shit.  I think Zawahiri just tweeted:

“@Abu, fucking told ya they’d be back! You owe me a Chik-fil-A.”


----------



## Florida173 (Oct 13, 2019)

> The Kurds were engaged in a contractual relationship fighting the Islamic State (ISIS).  They were well paid and equipped for their fighting, much like any mercenary group.  Further, they were given three years to consolidate eastern Syria to feed their long-held desire to form an independent Kurdistan with other Kurds in Turkey, Iraq, and Iran.  They failed.



https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2019/10/missing_the_bigger_picture_in_kurdish_syria.html


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## Gordus (Oct 14, 2019)

Apparently the Kurdish forces now ally with Assad and Moscow, allowing Syrian troops to enter their claimed territories and head north.


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## Brill (Oct 14, 2019)

Gordus said:


> Apparently the Kurdish forces now ally with Assad and Moscow, allowing Syrian troops to enter their claimed territories and head north.



that FP article (linked with in the Yahoo) by SDF Gen Mazloum is very interesting.


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 14, 2019)

This is a bunch of bullshit:
U.S. forces say Turkey was deliberately ‘bracketing’ American troops with artillery fire in Syria

Fuck Turkey and Erdogan.  They've been nothing but assholes for quite a while.  I'm not all about us being Syria but it's too bad the response wasn't a defensive airstrike on Turkey's artillery positions to show them what's up.


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## Kraut783 (Oct 14, 2019)

But Turkey is a NATO ally........yeah, they suck...they always have.


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## Blizzard (Oct 14, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> But Turkey is a NATO ally....


Seems they need to be reminded.  Erdogan continues to take them down a path that rivals Pakistan for shittiest "ally".


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## Gunz (Oct 14, 2019)

Blizzard said:


> U.S. forces say Turkey was deliberately ‘bracketing’ American troops with artillery fire in Syria







AWP said:


> ...My opinion is that this was intentional, because there's no way...no fucking way our C2 assets wouldn't have warned them off.


----------



## coolusername (Oct 14, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> But Turkey is a NATO ally........yeah, they suck...they always have.


Can they be removed from NATO?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAGegQIBBAB&usg=AOvVaw3rrrF1k_8fZ7jqofVWpXF_


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## Kraut783 (Oct 14, 2019)

Gordus said:


> Apparently the Kurdish forces now ally with Assad and Moscow, allowing Syrian troops to enter their claimed territories and head north.


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## Gunz (Oct 14, 2019)

coolusername said:


> Can they be removed from NATO?





Of course.


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## Gunz (Oct 14, 2019)

Gordus said:


> Apparently the Kurdish forces now ally with Assad and Moscow, allowing Syrian troops to enter their claimed territories and head north.



Those pesky Kurds will side with anybody.


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## R.Caerbannog (Oct 14, 2019)

I dunno about anyone else, but I'm getting the feeling this debacle might be fortunate for us. Before heads explode hear me out. The Russians and Syrians joining with the Kurds to deal with the remnants of ISIL might be a good thing, due to the following reasons.

- Our pullout washed our hands free of ISIS families and war criminals.
- Draws an overextended Russian military presence into Syria (hopefully for years) keeping the Turks in check.
- Creates increased social/political dissent, due to Edrogans inept leadership, in Turkish political circles.
- Leaves the messy cleanup of ISIS in the hands of the Turks, Syrians, and Kurds.
- Allies the Kurds with Syria and Russia, hopefully checking spreading Iranian influence in the region.
- Draws in our enemies and frenemies into a hotly contested location where they can waste blood and treasure.
- Keeps our hands relatively clean and in a position to safeguard our interests in the region.


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## Blizzard (Oct 14, 2019)

^ Except the fuckin Turks are using Muslim militias, filled with ISIS and Al Qaeda fighters to battle the Kurds.  Again, fuck Turkey.  They are not our friends.


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## R.Caerbannog (Oct 14, 2019)

Blizzard said:


> ^ Except the fuckin Turks are using Muslim militias, filled with ISIS and Al Qaeda fighters to battle the Kurds.  Again, fuck Turkey.  They are not our friends.


Me? Cause I agree, Turkey sucks. Heck, that entire region of the world sucks including Europe. Well, maybe not all Europe. One could argue this Syria business is a EU problem.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 15, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> Those pesky Kurds will side with anybody.



Survival instinct is kicking in. You know you were just left by your big brother (USA) and so you go find the closest biggest dude you can to help you no matter the cost to fight with you. I can't say I blame them. They know they can't beat off a Turkish invasion (and quite possibly the Syrians can't either) but if Turkey pushes in too deep against the Syrian Army then it's now a real war, no longer proxy groups fighting the Syrian Army. That's where Russia steps in and gets real combat experience for their military to test out their new equipment they've been developing the past 10 years.


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## Gunz (Oct 15, 2019)

Gordus said:


> Apparently the Kurdish forces now ally with Assad and Moscow, allowing Syrian troops to enter their claimed territories and head north.





Box said:


> ...They just want to live in Kurdistan and they'll get in bed with anyone that they think will help them push a Kurdistan narrative.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 15, 2019)

HOLY SHIT!!!  

Check out this video of Turkey lighting Syrian women and children the fuck up!






Oh wait....that's actually video of a Kentucky gun range that ABC news actually edited to look more grainy....oops!

Questions swirl after ABC airs video from Kentucky gun range, labeled as Syria


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## AWP (Oct 15, 2019)

Trump: FAKE NEWS!
Media: OMG! He's so biased! We do not fake the news!
ABC News: Hold my beer.

I've said it for years that the media is vermin out for ratings and damn the facts. Edward R. Murrow and Walter Cronkite, men who had their bias, would spin in their graves if they saw what the Fourth Estate has become.

Just remember all of this the next time you want to single source a major "news" story. They're vermin trying to make us their puppets...and in a large sense we are already there.


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## chickenrappa (Oct 15, 2019)

That's actually hilarious that they got called out. That's embarrassment at the highest level. Do I think it will curtail future clown shoe incidents? Nope. Do I think they deserved it? Yes. Was it funny that they got called out? Hell yes. That's all I have to say.


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## Box (Oct 15, 2019)

This in no way looks anything like Hearst and Pulitzer publishing biased news stories about Cuba prior to the start of the Spanish American War. 

Hopefully we can get past the formalities and initiate a large scale conflict based on errant reporting and emotion sooner than later.


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## Gunz (Oct 15, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> HOLY SHIT!!!
> 
> Check out this video of Turkey lighting Syrian women and children the fuck up!
> 
> ...




Syrian women and children were on that Kentucky gun range.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 15, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> Syrian women and children were on that Kentucky gun range.


At this point what difference does it make?


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## Brill (Oct 15, 2019)

AWP said:


> Trump: FAKE NEWS!
> Media: OMG! He's so biased! We do not fake the news!
> ABC News: Hold my beer.
> 
> ...



Meh. Apparently we’ve been here before.


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## Gunz (Oct 15, 2019)

Word is the Kurds now want Kentucky to help them fight Turkey.


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## Brill (Oct 16, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> Word is the Kurds now want Kentucky to help them fight Turkey.



I read that the Kurds are pissed that COL Sanders hasn’t replied to their letters asking for support.


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## MarineWyrd (Oct 16, 2019)

Seems like it's a logistical nightmare on the ground just to try and pull out in the given time table.

The 1,000 elite US troops in Syria are making a chaotic and demoralizing retreat after Trump canceled their mission


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## Gunz (Oct 16, 2019)

MarineWyrd said:


> Seems like it's a logistical nightmare on the ground just to try and pull out in the given time table.
> 
> The 1,000 elite US troops in Syria are making a chaotic and demoralizing retreat after Trump canceled their mission




Wherever we go, even if we intend to go in light, we always seem to accumulate a lot of baggage. So yes, sir, absolutely, a logistical mess. Last December, when Gen. Mattis resigned, one of his arguments against the President's hasty withdrawal order was the time it would take to make it happen. 

(Incidentally, the source of the article sounds credible but I wince when I read stuff like:  "The official — *who is under orders not to discuss the* *situation with the media* — expressed frustration at the past week of conflicting orders from top US officials.")


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## Gordus (Oct 16, 2019)

MarineWyrd said:


> The 1,000 elite US troops in Syria are making a chaotic and demoralizing retreat after Trump canceled their mission



That sounds frustrating ah.



> ......_like _*20 well-trained commandos*....



Is that a GOT reference ? lol


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 16, 2019)

MarineWyrd said:


> Seems like it's a logistical nightmare on the ground just to try and pull out in the given time table.
> 
> The 1,000 elite US troops in Syria are making a chaotic and demoralizing retreat after Trump canceled their mission


Did we even have a route to the sea?  We were basically isolated and airlifted into the area.  Kind of a really shitty mission idea for when you need to withdraw.



Ocoka said:


> Wherever we go, even if we intend to go in light, we always seem to accumulate a lot of baggage. So yes, sir, absolutely, a logistical mess. Last December, when Gen. Mattis resigned, one of his arguments against the President's hasty withdrawal order was the time it would take to make it happen.
> 
> (Incidentally, the source of the article sounds credible but I wince when I read stuff like:  "The official — *who is under orders not to discuss the* *situation with the media* — expressed frustration at the past week of conflicting orders from top US officials.")



There once was a time we knew how to withdraw, at least on paper.


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## Gordus (Oct 16, 2019)




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## AWP (Oct 16, 2019)

Syria's a shitshow right now.


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## Brill (Oct 17, 2019)

Interesting turn of events.


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## Brill (Oct 17, 2019)

AWP said:


> Syria's a shitshow right now.



Looks like you misspelled “job security”.


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## Brill (Oct 18, 2019)

Anyone find it odd that the UNHCR hasn’t yet condemned the Kurdish genocide in NE Syria? Is it possible that it isn’t happening?


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 18, 2019)

lindy said:


> Anyone find it odd that the UNHCR hasn’t yet condemned the Kurdish genocide in NE Syria? Is it possible that it isn’t happening?


Sarcasm?  Venezuela just got appointed to the UNHCR...it's not something I would take as a serious body politic.


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## Brill (Oct 18, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> Sarcasm?  Venezuela just got appointed to the UNHCR...it's not something I would take as a serious body politic.



No, just find it strange the international community would sit idly by when an ethnic group is being decimated by a nation state beyond the eyes of journalists, social media, etc.

In absence of any substantiated claims, I’m suspicious.


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## Salt USMC (Oct 18, 2019)

lindy said:


> Anyone find it odd that the UNHCR hasn’t yet condemned the Kurdish genocide in NE Syria? Is it possible that it isn’t happening?


They released a statement about it today
New refugees arrive to Iraq in a week of violence in northeast Syria


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## Brill (Oct 18, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> They released a statement about it today
> New refugees arrive to Iraq in a week of violence in northeast Syria



Not doubting the impact of the war on civilian population but refugees do not equate to systemic killing of a group of people.


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## R.Caerbannog (Oct 18, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> Sarcasm?  Venezuela just got appointed to the UNHCR...it's not something I would take as a serious body politic.


Holy crap, that's crazy!


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## coolusername (Oct 21, 2019)

What do you guy's think about this?

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAEegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2Qp1D8z0-yHTb7jzKHVcVI


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## RackMaster (Oct 21, 2019)

coolusername said:


> What do you guy's think about this?
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAEegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2Qp1D8z0-yHTb7jzKHVcVI



Short answer:  yes.


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## AWP (Oct 21, 2019)

The Turks most assuredly knew our guys were there. Anyone debating that is uninformed at best and stupid at worst. They know where our troops and planes are, the Turks can eat a dick.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 21, 2019)

I bet they even told us they were going to shell the area...or maybe I'm that cynical.


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## nobodyvl (Oct 21, 2019)

US military convoy withdrawing from Syria pelted with garbage by angry residents

So the Kurds are understandably angry....


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## Kraut783 (Oct 22, 2019)

Interesting....

*Turkey, Russia Reach Deal To Control Syrian Areas Once Patrolled By The U.S.*

Under the deal, Russian military police and Syrian border guards will first facilitate the withdrawal of Syrian Kurdish forces from the Turkish border*. *Russians and Turks will then jointly patrol the area now occupied by the Turkish military. Russian military police and border guards from Syria will cross the over the Syrian side of the border with Turkey. At that point, the two forces will "facilitate the removal of YPG elements and their weapons," according to the memorandum. 

Turkey, Russia Reach Deal To Control Syrian Areas Once Patrolled By The U.S.


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Oct 22, 2019)

Pretty sure I seen a news interview where PresidentTrump said a year or two ago Russia and Turkey could figure it out after we smash IS.


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## CQB (Oct 23, 2019)

To my way of thinking, the Kurds which are being pushed back are going to be replaced by displaced Syrians who are currently in Turkey near that border region.


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## Gordus (Oct 23, 2019)

Yes, they would get rid of two birds with one stone.

But I think this will be a greater political victory for Putin than anyone else.


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## Gunz (Oct 23, 2019)

CQB said:


> To my way of thinking, the Kurds which are being pushed back are going to be replaced by displaced Syrians who are currently in Turkey near that border region.



Yes, changing the demographics.


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## RackMaster (Oct 23, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> Yes, changing the demographics.



Classic Russian move.  Kill all the unwanted and replace with the wanted.  That's why there's so much Russian support in Ukraine and Crimea specifically. They are the offspring of Russian's moved into the area.


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## GOTWA (Nov 20, 2019)

Israel carries out ‘wide-scale strikes’ on Iranian forces in Syria

Israel is getting after it.


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## Brill (Nov 20, 2019)

GOTWA said:


> Israel carries out ‘wide-scale strikes’ on Iranian forces in Syria
> 
> Israel is getting after it.



"During our strike of Iranian & Syrian terror targets, *a Syrian air defence missile was fired despite clear warnings* to refrain from such fire. *As a result, a number of Syrian aerial defence batteries were destroyed*," the IDF said.


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## GOTWA (Nov 20, 2019)

lindy said:


> "During our strike of Iranian & Syrian terror targets, *a Syrian air defence missile was fired despite clear warnings* to refrain from such fire. *As a result, a number of Syrian aerial defence batteries were destroyed*," the IDF said.


Exactly lol.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 21, 2019)

lindy said:


> "During our strike of Iranian & Syrian terror targets, *a Syrian air defence missile was fired despite clear warnings* to refrain from such fire. *As a result, a number of Syrian aerial defence batteries were destroyed*," the IDF said.


Hey, we're going to bomb you, don't shoot at us or we'll bomb you more.


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## AWP (Nov 21, 2019)

lindy said:


> "During our strike of Iranian & Syrian terror targets, *a Syrian air defence missile was fired despite clear warnings*



ONE missile? BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!! "One", that's funny. One missile at Israeli a/c? Who believes this stupidity?

"One"...not even close.


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## Gunz (Nov 23, 2019)




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## Phoenix15 (Feb 19, 2020)

Get out your popcorn. Is my assumption correct that large scale direct conflict between Turkey/Russia in Syria would not trigger Article 5 since this is outside of Turkish borders?

Erdogan has publicly considered invoking Article 5 a couple of times during the Syrian Civil War over the downing of a radar plane and the protection of a tomb but it was not met with any enthusiasm by NATO as a whole. From a civilian interpretation, it appears Turkey is barely a NATO member as they continually stymie us with fuqq boi moves (see Germans at Incirlik to name one). Fair to say they are the "Pakistan" of NATO?


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## Marauder06 (Feb 19, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> Hey, we're going to bomb you, don't shoot at us or we'll bomb you more.



Seems legit!


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 19, 2020)

Phoenix15 said:


> Get out your popcorn. Is my assumption correct that large scale direct conflict between Turkey/Russia in Syria would not trigger Article 5 since this is outside of Turkish borders?
> 
> Erdogan has publicly considered invoking Article 5 a couple of times during the Syrian Civil War over the downing of a radar plane and the protection of a tomb but it was not met with any enthusiasm by NATO as a whole. From a civilian interpretation, it appears Turkey is barely a NATO member as they continually stymie us with fuqq boi moves (see Germans at Incirlik to name one). Fair to say they are the "Pakistan" of NATO?


Yes, that would have to be a non Article 5 request.


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## AWP (Feb 19, 2020)

Us in a war with Russian on the side of Turkey?

NATO or not, no one is going to rush to Turkey's aid. We'd maybe provide some ISR support or something but even that is doubtful because of the Russian ADA presence.

 I don't see NATO caring unless Russian went north into Turkey.


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## Florida173 (Feb 20, 2020)

AWP said:


> Us in a war with Russian on the side of Turkey?
> 
> NATO or not, no one is going to rush to Turkey's aid. We'd maybe provide some ISR support or something but even that is doubtful because of the Russian ADA presence.
> 
> I don't see NATO caring unless Russian went north into Turkey.



We could almost be talking about Libya too.


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## ThunderHorse (Feb 20, 2020)

Turkey is deploying a fuck ton of regular army man power to take Idlib.  The amount of takes on HETTs is rather impressive from a military lift perspective.  

So after they take it, what are they going to do with it?  Many people basically posit that Erdogan is trying to re-form the Ottoman state in modern times.


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## AWP (Feb 20, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> Turkey is deploying a fuck ton of regular army man power to take Idlib.  The amount of takes on HETTs is rather impressive from a military lift perspective.
> 
> So after they take it, what are they going to do with it?  Many people basically posit that Erdogan is trying to re-form the Ottoman state in modern times.



The Russians will only tolerate so much militarily and we'll only tolerate so much politically.

The Turks are out of the F-35 program and buying Russian ADA hardware. If they square off against the Russians, that avenue fails. If they think NATO will bail them out, I think that door is closed.

The Turks are overplaying their hand right now. Better to lay the smack down on Syrian/ Kurdish asses then pull out instead of messing with the bull.


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## Gordus (Feb 20, 2020)

Turkey asks U.S. for Patriot Missiles to deter Russia in Syria.


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## AWP (Feb 20, 2020)

Gordus said:


> Turkey asks U.S. for Patriot Missiles to deter Russia in Syria.



This is almost as fucked up as the Taliban/ Haqqani wanting peace article.

I'm tired of endless wars but more tired of the world's shitheads.

Kill.


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## Gordus (Feb 21, 2020)

AWP said:


> This is almost as fucked up as the Taliban/ Haqqani wanting peace article.
> 
> I'm tired of endless wars but more tired of the world's shitheads.
> 
> Kill.



But wait, there's more !


----------



## Gunz (Feb 21, 2020)

Gordus said:


> But wait, there's more !


 


Attaboy...er...I mean, Attaturk.

PS. I love turkey.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Feb 21, 2020)

Gordus said:


> But wait, there's more !


Wow! They must be really hard up for support if they're sending stuff like this out into the interwebs. Personally, I'd love to see the Rus and the Turk's batter each other bloody.


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## Gordus (Feb 28, 2020)

Over two dozen Turkish troops killed by Syrian airstrike

I feel this could end pretty bloody for Turkey. Judging by footages they and their friends seem to take a beating and things haven't even escalated yet. Maybe they should consider withdrawal before it get's ugly, and safe face.


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 1, 2020)

Looks like Turkey got some retaliation. 

Turkish military shoots down 2 Syrian jets as Syria fends off Turkey’s drone attack


----------



## Gordus (Mar 1, 2020)

It appears the SAA also suffered not insignificant ground equipment losses as a result of Turkish drone strikes in the past couple days.


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## Kraut783 (Mar 1, 2020)

Holy crap, did that second guy (0:25) get run over by the tank?


----------



## Cookie_ (Mar 1, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> Holy crap, did that second guy (0:25) get run over by the tank?


It looks more like he may have been jumping out of it to me.


----------



## Kraut783 (Mar 1, 2020)

Cookie_ said:


> It looks more like he may have been jumping out of it to me.



At 0:20 guy front of tank jumps forward, then you see him on the road when the tank moves forward at 0:25....looks like he was prob between the tracks...crazy tho.


----------



## Cookie_ (Mar 1, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> At 0:20 guy front of tank jumps forward, then you see him on the road when the tank moves forward at 0:25....looks like he was prob between the tracks...crazy tho.



I see what you're talking about now. There is a guy on the road above the tank, so I thought the dude at 0:20 was the 2nd guy.

It's a split second, but you can see the guy fall directly in front of the tank before it switches feeds.

ETA: At roughly 0:22 you can see him get out of what seems to be the gunners hatch. Looks like he was trying to jump away but slipped and falls foreward.


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## AWP (Mar 2, 2020)

In a war between Syria and Turkey I'm with Team Orville Redenbacher.


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## Blizzard (Mar 2, 2020)

I'd be fine if both sides literally fought to the last man standing.


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## RackMaster (Mar 3, 2020)

Looks like Turkey is pulling out all the stops. 

Turkey declares war on Syria’s Bashar al-Assad and unleashes swarms of killer drones


----------



## Phoenix15 (Mar 4, 2020)

Russian build up in Syria

Why does Turkey allow this? Would shutting the Bosphorus or their airspace illicit an overwhelming response out of Russia? I mean what would Russia do - continue to kill Turks in Syria?


----------



## BloodStripe (Mar 9, 2020)

You read it here first. Turkey has already lost the war that is only 9 days old.

Turkey surrendered in Syria’s Idlib after losing key town – op-ed | Ahval

🙄🤔🤣


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## ThunderHorse (Jun 18, 2022)

Well, Ivan is up to no good again.  Russia warned US it was going to conduct airstrikes on fighters in Syria


----------

