# Marines:  Go four before grunt??



## Devildoc (Aug 1, 2018)

A suggestion to have non-infantry experience before going into infantry.  Not feeling this, dog....

Go four before grunt: The controversial idea posed by the chairman of Mattis’ task force

Some interesting comments vis-à-vis SF and SOF...


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## Gunz (Aug 1, 2018)

Who the _*fuck*_ wants to do 4 years in a non-infantry MOS before getting the "opportunity" to be a trigger-puller? That's almost guaranteed to lose combat-arms manpower from the get-go. They'll go to the Army so they don't have to wait 4 years to play with machine guns and frags. (God forbid, they might even want to be _Rangers_).

Eighteen and nineteen-year-olds still have that sense of imperishability. They're still young enough to want to do crazy shit. You need crazy young bastards in Marine infantry because you may want them to attack fortified positions straight on and annihilate every living thing they see.

Don't give them four years to think about it.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 1, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Don't give them four years to think about it.



Word.


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## Devildoc (Aug 1, 2018)




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## Grunt (Aug 1, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Who the _*fuck*_ wants to do 4 years in a non-infantry MOS before getting the "opportunity" to be a trigger-puller? That's almost guaranteed to lose combat-arms manpower from the get-go. They'll go to the Army so they don't have to wait 4 years to play with machine guns and frags. (God forbid, they might even try to be _Rangers_).



They would have lost me in a heartbeat....


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## digrar (Aug 1, 2018)

In our neck of the woods it was generally the other way, at the 4-6 year mark about a third to half discharge, about a quarter corps transfer and the rest keep on keeping on. Transfer rates into Infantry, Armoured, Artillery and Engineers was near on zero. 
We've seen the same thing since they opened the jobs up to women, most going through those jobs are off the street. Next to no one has slid across from the support trades.


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## Marauder06 (Aug 1, 2018)

This is a stupid idea.


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## DA SWO (Aug 1, 2018)

Interesting concept, short on details.
What is the non-infantry retention rate for the Marines.  That's your recruiting pool.
Your Infantry squad has zero Privates or PFC's and the lowest non UCMJ'd rank is Lance Corporal, that'll do wonders for promotion to Sgt.


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## Teufel (Aug 1, 2018)

18 year olds have been getting it done since 1776. You want more experience, make squad leaders SSgts and add more Sgts to a squad. Increase the GT score while you are at it and make SOI much harder.


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## AWP (Aug 1, 2018)

That's not a Duffelblog article?


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## digrar (Aug 1, 2018)

Major General Robert H. Scales, 73 years old, from the Artillery, has NFI and should probably be looking at shuffling sideways into calling the bingo at his local retirement home.


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## Marauder06 (Aug 2, 2018)

This idea is ridiculous on its face.  IIRC, the Marine Corps already has the lowest year-over-year aggregate re-enlistment rate of all of the services, and the infantry is the largest branch within the Marines.  They're already having to offer re-up bonuses of something like $70 to mid-career Marines to help them make the decision to stay in the service.  This would dramatically reduce the pool of available Marines and make them a much-less-capable force.

Moreover, most of the Marines I know joined to fight.  Now you're going to tell them they have to do an ENTIRE FOUR YEAR ENLISTMENT before they even get the chance?  What happened to "every Marine is a rifleman?"

This is just the latest iteration of "I saw this when I visited JSOC once so let's do it for all of the things" stupidity.  The culture of the Corps is not the culture of SOF.  The mission of the Corps is not the SOF mission.  What works for one unit will be a disaster in another.  And making stupid suggestions like this helps none of us.


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## Gunz (Aug 2, 2018)

digrar said:


> Major General Robert H. Scales, 73 years old, from the Artillery, has NFI and should probably be looking at shuffling sideways into calling the bingo at his local retirement home.



Right. An old Army cannon-cocker trying to tell the Marines how to do things. It's amazing what some people come up with to try to remain pertinent.


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## DasBoot (Aug 2, 2018)

I’d rather a guy with a grunt background, mindset and experience cross over to a non-infantry MOS. Going into a supply or commo background with knowledge of what the guys getting it in need is a far better situation than some guy who isn’t a natural born killer coming into the infantry, with the mindset of someone who was supply and is too worried about the admin side of the house and risk mitigation, than they are on turning their boys into savages.

Non-USMC related but look at the issues presented in “Relentless Strike” with the aviators who ran JSOC at the beginning of the war. Dell Dailey ran an organization of meat eaters with the zero-defect, zero-risk mentality of an aviator, and what do you end up with? “A Ferrari stuck in the garage.” 

If anything they should be attempting the reverse of this proposal- everyone starts as an Infantryman and then can move into a non-combat MOS after they have the experience.


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## Gunz (Aug 2, 2018)

DasBoot said:


> I’d rather a guy with a grunt background, mindset and experience cross over to a non-infantry MOS. Going into a supply or commo background with knowledge of what the guys getting it in need is a far better situation than some guy who isn’t a natural born killer coming into the infantry, with the mindset of someone who was supply and is too worried about the admin side of the house and risk mitigation, than they are on turning their boys into savages.
> 
> Non-USMC related but look at the issues presented in “Relentless Strike” with the aviators who ran JSOC at the beginning of the war. Dell Dailey ran an organization of meat eaters with the zero-defect, zero-risk mentality of an aviator, and what do you end up with? “A Ferrari stuck in the garage.”
> 
> If anything they should be attempting the reverse of this proposal- everyone starts as an Infantryman and then can move into a non-combat MOS after they have the experience.




Gregory Trebon, et al.

One of the reasons Amos was such a sucky Commandant. Never lived the grunt life and threw his own men under the bus.


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## Devildoc (Aug 2, 2018)

DasBoot said:


> I’d rather a guy with a grunt background, mindset and experience cross over to a non-infantry MOS. Going into a supply or commo background with knowledge of what the guys getting it in need is a far better situation than some guy who isn’t a natural born killer coming into the infantry, with the mindset of someone who was supply and is too worried about the admin side of the house and risk mitigation, than they are on turning their boys into savages.
> 
> Non-USMC related but look at the issues presented in “Relentless Strike” with the aviators who ran JSOC at the beginning of the war. Dell Dailey ran an organization of meat eaters with the zero-defect, zero-risk mentality of an aviator, and what do you end up with? “A Ferrari stuck in the garage.”
> 
> If anything they should be attempting the reverse of this proposal- everyone starts as an Infantryman and then can move into a non-combat MOS after they have the experience.



It's a bad idea, for so many reasons, many of which have been talked about.  A lot of people join the Marines and Army to do something other than combat arms, so anyone who joins specifically for combat arms, especially infantry (for the Marines) should be encouraged, mentored, and nurtured.  Then later if they want to cross-deck to a non-infantry MOS, they will do so with an invaluable experience which is _foundational to the mission of the Marine Corps, _and will be successful in most any other job.  

It sounds like a bunch of people want to turn the Corps into SOF lite, using MARSOC and SF as models, which is a bad idea.  The Corps needs to be the Corps.


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## TimoteoDunkin (Aug 2, 2018)

I know plenty of Bulk Fuelers that would attend ITB in a heart beat.


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## ThunderHorse (Aug 2, 2018)

Huh? This makes no sense...now if it were the other way around...


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## Gunz (Aug 3, 2018)

Seriously, 4 years as a non-grunt would've driven me mad. It was hard enough doing routine barracks bullshit at Lejeune. The only relief was TDY assignments, floats, FXs, _anything _to unass the company area.


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## Deleted member 12579 (Aug 3, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Right. An old Army cannon-cocker trying to tell the Marines how to do things. It's amazing what some people come up with to try to remain pertinent.



We get grunt training too bro especially when you are on the advance party team. You do a lot of recon, and the team I was on during Desert Storm got pinned down during one of our operations. It is even mentioned in a book I reviewed on here. Don't blame his ignorance on his MOS. By the way, there were more than eight of them. Initially eight came out of the trenches. Several minutes later approx. a company came out of the trenches. But my primary point being we too get put in some of the same circumstances as the infantry.

Not long after Jones's encounter, COL Weisman learned that a reconnaissance party from 4-3 FA had mistakenly moved well forward of his leading units. Weisman ordered LTC Lanny Smith to have them dig in and await relief. The reconnaissance party went to ground northeast of Jones'...s TF 3-66 AR, so the armor task force went looking for the lost artillerymen. As the task force approached the isolated Americans, enemy infantry foolishly took it under fire from fighting positions near the disoriented reconnaissance party. Jones directed his  tanks and Bradleys to fight with only machine guns rather than cannons to reduce the danger of hitting TF 1-41 IN, which stood just beyond the enemy. TF 3-66 AR machine gun fire drove the enemy right into TF 1-41 IN with Hillman's troops capturing all eight of them. TF 3-66 AR recovered the members of the lost reconnaissance party, unharmed, around 10:30am.

FM 6-50 Chptr 2 Reconnaissance, Selection, and Occuption of a Position


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## Gunz (Aug 3, 2018)

Eagle 92-94 said:


> We get grunt training too bro especially when you are on the advance party team. You do a lot of recon, and the team I was on during Desert Storm got pinned down during one of our operations. It is even mentioned in a book I reviewed on here. Don't blame his ignorance on his MOS. By the way, there were more than eight of them. Initially eight came out of the trenches. Several minutes later approx. a company came out of the trenches. But my primary point being we too get put in some of the same circumstances as the infantry.
> 
> Not long after Jones's encounter, COL Weisman learned that a reconnaissance party from 4-3 FA had mistakenly moved well forward of his leading units. Weisman ordered LTC Lanny Smith to have them dig in and await relief. The reconnaissance party went to ground northeast of Jones'...s TF 3-66 AR, so the armor task force went looking for the lost artillerymen. As the task force approached the isolated Americans, enemy infantry foolishly took it under fire from fighting positions near the disoriented reconnaissance party. Jones directed his  tanks and Bradleys to fight with only machine guns rather than cannons to reduce the danger of hitting TF 1-41 IN, which stood just beyond the enemy. TF 3-66 AR machine gun fire drove the enemy right into TF 1-41 IN with Hillman's troops capturing all eight of them. TF 3-66 AR recovered the members of the lost reconnaissance party, unharmed, around 10:30am.
> 
> FM 6-50 Chptr 2 Reconnaissance, Selection, and Occuption of a Position




Whoa, man, you are waaay overreacting to my comment. And I stand by what I wrote: He's an old Army cannon-cocker and he doesn't what he's talking about when it comes to Marines, period. Not a slam on you, dude, or your vast combat experience, not a slam on cannon-cockers. And I have no idea why you posted that link: to prove that arty guys are recon studs?


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 3, 2018)

Preemptive chill pill prescription for chronic misunderstandings.

Let's all agree that "cannon cockers" are hard and get grunt training too.

Further let's agree that Marines are a little wacky and usually don't take kindly to folks outside the Corps making suggestions "for the good of the Corps".

All that said, back on topic please.


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## Gunz (Aug 3, 2018)

No, you're not my dad. I won't take a chill pill and you can't make me.


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## Teufel (Aug 3, 2018)

Getting shot at or attending some combat training does not make someone an infantryman or give them the background or experience to recommend drastic cultural changes.


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## DasBoot (Aug 3, 2018)

Teufel said:


> Getting shot at or attending some combat training does not make someone an infantryman or give them the background or experience to recommend drastic cultural changes.


He can have 30+ years in the Army and I’d still tell him to eat a dick if he was speaking on infantry matters.

ETA- just saw he has a SS and a short tab... I’ll give him some more merit and rescind my comment about eating a dick... with that said I still think he’s off base.


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## Deleted member 12579 (Aug 3, 2018)

Teufel said:


> Getting shot at or attending some combat training does not make someone an infantryman or give them the background or experience to recommend drastic cultural changes.



He is/was a general for a reason. I'll leave it at that. But I agree he is wrong about this particular matter.


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## Deleted member 12579 (Aug 3, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Whoa, man, you are waaay overreacting to my comment. And I stand by what I wrote: He's an old Army cannon-cocker and he doesn't know what _*the fuck*_ he's talking about, period. Not a slam on you, dude, or your combat history, not a slam on cannon-cockers. And I have no idea why you posted that link: to prove that arty guys are recon studs?



I provide facts and information not just pure emotion.  Glad you put those two words in bold. On your question. I provided facts/info that I conducted some recon.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 3, 2018)

@Eagle 92-94 

All I asked was was for you to stop making the thread personal. If you want to debate @Teufel on officerdom, knock yourself out. 

But this...Why?



Eagle 92-94 said:


> I provide facts and information not just pure emotion.  Glad you put those two words in bold.



So permit me to be more direct this time. Keep to the subject.  

Do not take shots, veiled or overt, towards another member. 

Carry on.


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## Gunz (Aug 3, 2018)

Eagle 92-94 said:


> I provide facts and information not just pure emotion.  Glad you put those two words in bold. On your question. I provided facts/info that I conducted some recon.


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## Teufel (Aug 3, 2018)

Eagle 92-94 said:


> He is/was a general for a reason. I'll leave it at that. But I agree he is wrong about this particular matter.


I imagine it had something to do with his expertise in the artillery community and nothing to do with any imaginary understanding of how the infantry works. He is a highly decorated soldier and saw combat in Vietnam but that doesn’t make him an expert on infantry matters.


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## AWP (Aug 3, 2018)

DasBoot said:


> He can have 30+ years in the Army and I’d still tell him to eat a dick if he was speaking on infantry matters.



This needs more likes for using the phrase "eat a dick."


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## Teufel (Aug 4, 2018)

I will also add that our military is designed to recruit tons of 18 year olds and throw them directly at our opponents in a major conflict. That will happen during our next major war and no one is going to wait four years before they hit an infantry squad. They’ll be lucky if they get four months if we are facing a peer or near peer adversary.


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## Gunz (Aug 4, 2018)

Teufel said:


> I will also add that our military is designed to recruit tons of 18 year olds and throw them directly at our opponents in a major conflict. That will happen during our next major war and no one is going to wait four years before they hit an infantry squad. *They’ll be lucky if they get four months if we are facing a peer or near peer adversary*.



Absolutely, sir. When I joined, Marine infantry was the quickest ticket into combat. The Corps will cut weeks off SOI and recruit training for a major conflict. It works...it just means you get more OJT when you hit your unit and you die quicker if you don't learn fast.


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