# Iraq and ISIS Discussion



## Kraut783 (Jun 10, 2014)

As expected.......

Militants on Tuesday seized the airport, TV stations and governor's offices in Mosul, Iraq's second-largest city, as police and soldiers ran from their posts -- a stunning collapse of the security forces that has raised questions about Prime Minister Nuri al-Maliki's ability to hold the country together.

The militants are believed to belong to the extremist group the Islamic State in Iraq and Syria, an al Qaeda splinter group also known by its acronym ISIS. These fighters are believed to include many from outside Iraq, senior police officials said.

Within Mosul, militants managed to take control of security checkpoints, military bases and a prison, where they freed up to 1,000 prisoners, authorities said.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/10/world/meast/iraq-violence/


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## AWP (Jun 10, 2014)

I for one am SHOCKED! Shocked, I tell you....


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## Kraut783 (Jun 10, 2014)

heh....ya, gonna suck for FSA and Nursa when ISIS rolls into Syrian areas in captured armor...maybe an Iraqi M1 Abrams or two..... :-"


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## CQB (Jun 10, 2014)

I've picked up elsewhere they got quite a stash, Hummers etc.


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## AWP (Jun 10, 2014)

The AP ought to save that as a template. About 2018 they can use it like an Afghan Mad Lib for those stories.


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## DA SWO (Jun 10, 2014)

Who gives a fuck.
They had their chance and thought poking us in the eye was more important then long-term stability.
HA HA!


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## racing_kitty (Jun 10, 2014)

What a fucking waste of oxygen and space.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 10, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Who gives a fuck.
> They had their chance and thought poking us in the eye was more important then long-term stability.
> HA HA!



You said "ha ha" and Nelson came immediately to mind!


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## Kraut783 (Jun 11, 2014)

And another one bites the dust.....

*Victorious in Mosul, militants in Iraq wrest control of Tikrit*

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/11/world/meast/iraq-violence/


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## AWP (Jun 11, 2014)

I wonder if they can take down the country faster than we did in '03? That's only 1/2 sarcasm by the way.


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## DA SWO (Jun 11, 2014)

So much for Kurdistan.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 11, 2014)

I'm only shocked its taken this long.

Iraq needs to be split up into three different countries.


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## DA SWO (Jun 11, 2014)

JAB said:


> I'm only shocked its taken this long.
> 
> Iraq needs to be split up into three different countries.


Too late.

I give the  GOI about 90 days.


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## compforce (Jun 11, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Too late.
> 
> I give the  GOI about 90 days.



That long?


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## CQB (Jun 11, 2014)

More comment here.

http://www.blogsofwar.com/understanding-isis-and-their-rampage-through-iraq


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## Viper1 (Jun 11, 2014)

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...iki_s_fault_iraq_s_prime_minister_failed.html

Decent article.  It mentions Maliki's lack of leadership but does not address his decision to completely remove US troops from the country (minus embassy personnel).  We offered to stay with a large amount of trainers and advisors.  His loss.  I hope the police captain I worked with is still alive.  He was as of 2009...


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## Viper1 (Jun 11, 2014)

Another think tank that provides a lot of good facts, analysis, and sourcing.  http://www.understandingwar.org/iraq-blog


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## DA SWO (Jun 11, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...iki_s_fault_iraq_s_prime_minister_failed.html
> 
> Decent article.  It mentions Maliki's lack of leadership but does not address his decision to completely remove US troops from the country (minus embassy personnel).  We offered to stay with a large amount of trainers and advisors.  His loss.  I hope the police captain I worked with is still alive.  He was as of 2009...


That is the crux.  Maliki was more concerned with saving face and kicking us in the teeth.
The people who voted, voted along Tribal and Religious lines ignoring capability.
The People of Iraq planted the seeds, to quote Bill Clinton, "We gave them a chance"


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## CQB (Jun 11, 2014)

They had their chance to make good, but sometimes shit's trumps. 
But what now? Does ISIS consolidate or continue expanding? They've just won Lotto with the banks in Mosul & now have more more money that OBL ever had. 
Do they build a cheery Islamic Disneyland & start to govern? Or do they crack on & continue the offensive?


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## pardus (Jun 11, 2014)

I'm curious as to what will happen to the supply of oil if the islamists take over the country.


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## Scotth (Jun 11, 2014)

While I'm a little young, my first thoughts is this sounds very reminiscent of Vietnam.  Corrupt government that we could never win with.  Eventually you say enough is enough and when you leave the bad guys take over because the corrupt government is still corrupt an incompetent.

Afghanistan's will follow suit sooner than later.  Karzai better get that money sacked away in a safe location along with many exit plans because his ass is next.

The lesson that should've never been forgotten.  A legitimate and non-corrupt local government is mandatory for nation building.  Without that partner your wasting your time.


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## Scotth (Jun 11, 2014)

pardus said:


> I'm curious as to what will happen to the supply of oil if the islamists take over the country.



They will want to be paid after they acquire the power just like everyone else who acquired a lot of power, religion or no religion.

What happens to all the foreign companies invested in the oil business in Iraq?  Well they will lose and should have seen it coming a long time ago.

Long term oil production will probably suffer after they nationalize the oil industry because of mismanagement.  At their heart they are fighters not managers.


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 11, 2014)

So the new story is they asked for airstrikes.

We should have just sent an ICBM with a cc: to their president saying "we figured you were underestimating the severity of your situation"


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## DA SWO (Jun 11, 2014)

Scotth said:


> They will want to be paid after they acquire the power just like everyone else who acquired a lot of power, religion or no religion.
> 
> What happens to all the foreign companies invested in the oil business in Iraq?  Well they will lose and should have seen it coming a long time ago.
> 
> Long term oil production will probably suffer after they nationalize the oil industry because of mismanagement.  At their heart they are fighters not managers.


Funny thing, they essentially froze US Companies out of the bidding, so we don't lose too much (sucks to be China).


Ranger Psych said:


> So the new story is they asked for airstrikes.
> 
> We should have just sent an ICBM with a cc: to their president saying "we figured you were underestimating the severity of your situation"



They have an Air Force, deal with it.

LOL.


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## CQB (Jun 11, 2014)

@ajaltamimi gives a view of fun life under ISIS & Wahabbi rule, martyrdom, crucifixions & loads of fun for all, then sit down to a slap up feast.


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## AWP (Jun 11, 2014)

I should care about Iraq, but it is time for them to reap it.

Knowing that the Afghans in charge of my 'hood lived through the 92-96 "Internal Contingency Operation" and they can see how Iraq is winding up, I wonder how many are regreting the whole "Americans out by 2016" argument?

They can decry night raids and airstrikes, but no one bothered to consider they helped keep the barbarians at bay. We've made plenty of mistakes, but in the end we kept this sewer from backing up...for a time at least.

Bagram sits on the Shomali Plain. When I first arrived in '04, it was dark. Bleak. Barren. Night time revealed only a handful of lights outside the base and day time was a dust bowl. Now it is green and well lit. A few dozen vehicles are replaced by hundreds. Sure, we've made mistakes and I think this will go down as an L on the scoreboard, but a misguided and flawed American presence is better for the average Afghan than the TB's holy mandate. I doubt Iraq was any different.

Reap it, Iraq. America u-Akbar.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 12, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Too late.
> 
> I give the  GOI about 90 days.



I imagine the Kurds will maintain their control in the north. Only issue could possibly be ISIS gaining power over Iraq and the Turks siding with ISIS to attack the Kurds on all fronts.

The Sunni and Shia will kill each other off for sure.

I think its high time that some maps get re-drawn and they divide that region up by tribe. I think that's the only way it will stop the fight for power and influence.

My $.02


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## CQB (Jun 12, 2014)

Back in the QC era, I was for the Arab Spring primarily as they deserved a chance to sort it out for themselves having been ruled by others for about 300 years. So for me the Clinton view is similar, they deserve a chance. It didn't quite work out too well in certain areas. So they have no-one now to blame but themselves, win, lose or draw. They cannot accusingly point the finger at any other foreign power for "meddling."


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## pardus (Jun 12, 2014)

CQB said:


> Back in the QC era, I was for the Arab Spring primarily as they deserved a chance to sort it out for themselves having been ruled by others for about 300 years. So for me the Clinton view is similar, they deserve a chance. It didn't quite work out too well in certain areas. So they have no-one now to blame but themselves, win, lose or draw. *They cannot accusingly point the finger at any other foreign power for "meddling."*



True, but that won't stop them.


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## CQB (Jun 12, 2014)

Absolutely, imagine if the Five Eyes went into Syria. The decision to stay out is looking rather sound.


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## Ape_Hot (Jun 12, 2014)

"The U.S. just sat there and watched us fight on the Square for two years while the Muslim Brotherhood took over!"

FoxNews: U.S. does nothing to aid Egypt in burgeoning political crisis, terrorist group rises to power

In all seriousness, I hope El-Sisi can sort the place out. Egypt has some serious issues.


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## CQB (Jun 12, 2014)

See my post above.


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## Ape_Hot (Jun 12, 2014)

My post was piggybacking off yours. I should have quoted you.


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## CQB (Jun 12, 2014)

No drama, all good.


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## Crusader74 (Jun 12, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> Another think tank that provides a lot of good facts, analysis, and sourcing.  http://www.understandingwar.org/iraq-blog



A lot of the resources on that site are from Ex/serving Military.. I've cited a few articles for an essay.


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## RetPara (Jun 12, 2014)

Though most/many (?) of you weren't around then.  This was a bad time for the military.  In the evacuation of the Phonm Phen the Marine Amtrac Bn Cdr was fragged (had a friend in the Bn) and we lost Marines to rocket fire at Ton Son Nut.  We accepted thousands of Vietnamese refugees who fled the communists.... 

I just don't seeing using being that generous with Iraqi's or Afghanis; even those that worked for us or the Christians.  Though a lot of the Christians have bailed already from Iraq already...

*URGENT – U.S. Embassy prepares evacuation plans*
http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/urgent-u-s-embassy-prepares-evacuation-plans/

The potential blood letting will make Ghengis Kahn look like a piker....


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## Red-Dot (Jun 12, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Funny thing, they essentially froze US Companies out of the bidding, so we don't lose too much (sucks to be China).
> 
> 
> They have an Air Force, deal with it.
> ...


That's a scary thought....On a side note, wonder if they found my durka durka Mohammed jihad drawing I left them in Ramadi?


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## AWP (Jun 12, 2014)

I'm wondering if things are worse than anyone's letting on? "We're standing by Iraq even as we pull our advisors and trainers out of the country. But we're totally with you, shoulder to shoulder."

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/12/americans-being-evacuated-from-iraqi-air-base/



> A senior U.S. official confirmed to Fox News that Americans were being evacuated from a base in Balad, which had been one of the largest training missions in Iraq.
> The three planeloads of Americans are mostly contractors and civilians. The State Department said Thursday that the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad is operating as usual.
> 
> "We need places to land, we need safe and secure airfields," one source said, noting that the militants are "seizing airfields and they have surface-to-air missiles, which very clearly threatens our pilots and planes if we do go into evacuation mode."
> Sources said "all western diplomats in Iraq are in trouble," and American allies are scrambling to put together an evacuation plan. Military officials said there are "not a lot of good options."


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## DA SWO (Jun 12, 2014)

Contractors in Iraq should have known this was possible.

That said, yeah, we have to rescue them, and the State NAGs too (though a few less State Department employees may not be that bad).


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## Red-Dot (Jun 12, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> I'm wondering if things are worse than anyone's letting on? "We're standing by Iraq even as we pull our advisors and trainers out of the country. But we're totally with you, shoulder to shoulder."
> 
> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/06/12/americans-being-evacuated-from-iraqi-air-base/



I would imagine it's getting right gamey....hope they have their final protective fire mensurated....


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 12, 2014)

I have a lot of buddies who bailed on the WPS mission in Iraq over the last two years. The current Iraqi government is very corrupt (as to be expected) but the security has been going down hill the last two years fast.

Crazy shit is the Baghdad embassy is the largest and most expensive in the world. Glad we built that compound for them...


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## Brill (Jun 12, 2014)

From 2012:

http://www.nytimes.com/2012/09/23/w...-last-months-in-iraq.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

On Oct. 21, Mr. Obama held another videoconference with Mr. Maliki — his first such discussion since the talks began in June. The negotiations were over, and all of the American troops would be coming home.

The White House insisted that the collapse of the talks was not a setback. “As we reviewed the 10,000 option, we came to the conclusion that achieving the goal of a security partnership was not dependent on the size of our footprint in-country, and that stability in Iraq did not depend on the presence of U.S. forces,” a senior Obama administration official said.

It is too soon to fully assess that prediction. But tensions have increased to the point that Mr. Barzani has insisted Mr. Maliki be replaced and Iraq’s lone Sunni vice president has fled to Turkey to avoid arrest.


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## CQB (Jun 13, 2014)

I heard that to try to get some way forward, the govt there couldn't raise a quorum. 
The only bright side is that I hope every disaffected conservative Muslim is any country you can name will flock to this new Islamic proto Caliphate. They can have a nice time whiling away the hours crucifying and beheading each other. I'm sure there'll be some takers.


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## Red-Dot (Jun 13, 2014)

I would not waste another single hellfire on Iraq, unless it was to get their oil.


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## AWP (Jun 16, 2014)

Uh....are you kidding me?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/16/world/meast/iraq-unrest/index.html?hpt=hp_t2



> In his interview with Yahoo!News, Kerry didn't say that cooperation with Iran is under active discussion inside the administration.
> "Let's see what Iran might or might not be willing to do before we start making any pronouncements," he said.
> But he went on to say that the he "wouldn't rule out anything that would be constructive to providing real stability."


 
To even suggest such a thing, negotiate ot cooperate with a nation we consider to be a threat to this country and the world, the whole Axis of Evil, the nuke program, the Embassy in '79...I can't even wrap my head around this. The fall of Iraq is so important as for us to even consider, however remotely, to work with Iran?

ADMIN Note: I've changed the title of this thread to reflect the situation as a whole.


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## DA SWO (Jun 16, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> Uh....are you kidding me?
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2014/06/16/world/meast/iraq-unrest/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
> 
> ...


Ignore the fact that Iran was doing everything they could to destabilize Iraq and kill our troops a few years ago.

Proof that most nations are run by idiots.


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## AWP (Jun 16, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Ignore the fact that Iran was doing everything they could to destabilize Iraq and kill our troops a few years ago.


 
Or that Iran has actively worked w/ Pakistan to kill troops in Afghanistan.

I cannot fathom a scenario where the mere suggestion of working with Iran is acceptable.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 16, 2014)

Yeah I agree its insanity to imagine our government working with Iran on anything.

Besides that the Suadi's won't be having that shit at all.


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## DA SWO (Jun 16, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> Or that Iran has actively worked w/ Pakistan to kill troops in Afghanistan.
> 
> I cannot fathom a scenario where the mere suggestion of working with Iran is acceptable.


To be fair, Lindsey Grahamnesty is also advocating this.


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## AWP (Jun 16, 2014)

SOWT said:


> To be fair, Lindsey Grahamnesty is also advocating this.


 
Then we can add him to the list of morons supporting this nonsense. Our leadership has lost its mind.

---

What do we gain by partnering with Iran to save Iraq? I know it is a bare suggestion at this point, but if we follow through...what do we gain? At best on the "con" side, we've entered into the Sunni/ Shia split on the side of the Shia and there's no way that ends well. Siding with either party is madness, but we'll do just that in the eyes of the Sunni.

How does the fall of Iraq offset/ overcome the negatives of siding with Iran? That what it will be seen as, us taking the Shia's side.


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## CQB (Jun 16, 2014)

Some more OSINT. 
m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtube_gdata_player&v=FsF3HspQY6A&desktop_uri=%2Fwatch%3Fv%3DFsF3HspQY6A%26feature%3Dyoutube_gdata_player


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## Totentanz (Jun 16, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> I cannot fathom a scenario where the mere suggestion of working with Iran is acceptable.



What if we were planning to invade a mutual enemy? (to be specific, Crocker meeting with Iranian military officials in Geneva prior to OEF: link, link, link)  I'll grant you that almost a decade and a half later, the many variables have changed (e.g. thanks for the EFPs, assholes), but it has happened within contemporary history.



Freefalling said:


> What do we gain by partnering with Iran to save Iraq? I know it is a bare suggestion at this point, but if we follow through...what do we gain? At best on the "con" side, we've entered into the Sunni/ Shia split on the side of the Shia and there's no way that ends well. Siding with either party is madness, but we'll do just that in the eyes of the Sunni.



Depends what you mean by "partner"... I won't advocate skipping down the yellow brick road with them (I'd give that option an emphatic "fuck that"), but I'd be perfectly ok letting Quds Force take it on the jaw achieving our goals (stabilizing Iraq) rather than our own forces.


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## Chopstick (Jun 16, 2014)

Just saw this on the news.
http://abc11.com/news/president-obama-275-us-military-troops-will-deploy-to-iraq/116337/



> - President Barack Obama is notifying Congress that about 275 U.S. military personnel could deploy to Iraq.
> 
> Obama says the forces are going to provide support and security for U.S. personnel and the U.S. Embassy in Baghdad. He says the forces are equipped for combat and will remain in Iraq until the security situation becomes such that they are no longer needed.
> 
> ...


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## DA SWO (Jun 16, 2014)

The Iranians are involved because this is a Sunni-Shia Battle, a battle they helped instigate.
Iran is involved because they never envisioned a Sunni uprising ( remembering the last Sunni to Rule Iraq).

Do not get involved in another man's Civil War (sell arms for cash if you must, but never allow yourselves to take sides with manpower).


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## ScribblerSix (Jun 18, 2014)

I hope everyone knows that to side with Iran is to side against Kurdistan.


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## RetPara (Jun 19, 2014)

ScribblerSix said:


> I hope everyone knows that to side with Iran is to side against Kurdistan.



Well we do... but most Americans.... please....   So obviously we will ally with Iran...


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## Brill (Jun 19, 2014)

RetPara said:


> Well we do... but most Americans.... please....   So obviously we will ally with Iran...



If we're friendly to them, they will like us again!  If POTUS cannot get good polling numbers here, why not try to get positive numbers overseas? :-/


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## DA SWO (Jun 19, 2014)

ScribblerSix said:


> I hope everyone knows that to side with Iran is to side against Kurdistan.


Sadly, to side with Kurdistan is to side against Turkey (or so they say).

I actually think Kurdistan is a good idea (within some well defined political boundaries)


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## ScribblerSix (Jun 19, 2014)

It's a weird thing, should we have left a Middle East with 6 sides all fighting one another, with a kind of foreign policy certainty where we had the Saudi and Salafis on one side, the Shias (Iran, Hezbollah, and Syria) on another, the Gulf States and Monarchies, and Saddam and the ("tribal") Iraqi Sunnis, the Turks and Israel (who were allies for a while), and lastly the Kurds all fighting each other? Some say having 6 sides canceling each other out is a good thing. 

But, really is what we have today, a consolidated Shia versus Sunni civil war really better?  I'd agree with The Spectator, http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/dougla...le-east-is-far-bigger-than-isis-and-al-qaeda/

This is going to be a long war. The lid has opened and everything in pandora's box is going out.


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## Brill (Jun 19, 2014)

ScribblerSix said:


> It's a weird thing, should we have left a Middle East with 6 sides all fighting one another, with a kind of foreign policy certainty where we had the Saudi and Salafis on one side, the Shias (Iran, Hezbollah, and Syria) on another, the Gulf States and Monarchies, and Saddam and the ("tribal") Iraqi Sunnis, the Turks and Israel (who were allies for a while), and lastly the Kurds all fighting each other? Some say having 6 sides canceling each other out is a good thing.
> 
> But, really is what we have today, a consolidated Shia versus Sunni civil war really better?  I'd agree with The Spectator, http://blogs.spectator.co.uk/dougla...le-east-is-far-bigger-than-isis-and-al-qaeda/
> 
> This is going to be a long war. The lid has opened and everything in pandora's box is going out.



Who gives a shit?  Seriously.  What are our national interests in who owns the sea of sand?  

It isn't oil anymore. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...ependence-by-2035-on-shale-boom-iea-says.html
Israel could kick the crap out of any of those countries if (when) needed.
Regional stability only enabled the previous two "goals".

Why not just lay down some "rules" like:

"Do what ya gotta do, but if you try to export that shi'ite to the West, we'll give you a cordite ride to paradise.  Cool?  Ok, have a good one.  Oh, here's a Serbian made AK and PKM for cheap.  Tell your friends you bought them here."

One thing that annoys me is the ISIL vs ISIS debate.  Based on an Arabic language scholar's input (http://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs...-debate-over-what-to-call-iraqs-terror-group/), it should be ISIS but the dipshits running the Dawla want the entire Levant, so I tend to give more weight to the guys with guns than the POV of a guy in front of a computer.


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## Kraut783 (Jun 19, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> ADMIN Note: I've changed the title of this thread to reflect the situation as a whole.



How DARE you change the title of my thread w/o permission


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## AWP (Jun 19, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> How DARE you change the title of my thread w/o permission



MY POWER HAS NO LIMITS!!!!!!!


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## ScribblerSix (Jun 19, 2014)

lindy said:


> Who gives a shit?  Seriously.  What are our national interests in who owns the sea of sand?
> 
> It isn't oil anymore. http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...ependence-by-2035-on-shale-boom-iea-says.html
> Israel could kick the crap out of any of those countries if (when) needed.
> ...



You could just call it al-Sham (the global jihad) - that's their other name and they refer to themselves as that a lot. 

Why should we care? I don't think anyone will have answer for you. There's no 1 answer and will never be. If you're looking for a good versus evil war, I think you're going to have to wait a few years until World War 3 breaks out between the evil ATM army that won't release any funds and the transformers. 

However, in the 21st century, this is the new normal with lots of slightly larger states battling over control of a region. You have to ask yourself, use your imagination, what would happen if Iran became the dominant power in the Middle East? Likewise, would happen to Saudi Arabia and the Salafis became the dominant power in the region? Then think about what would happen to America, her prestige, and eventually, her ideas should this occur. I think if you imagine that what's good is just strict national interests and what's good for us is just preventing another 9/11 misses the point. 

Events like 9/11 occurred because we're the enemy of a large number of people... and I don't want those people to win and become powerful than us over than there then we are.

Don't you?


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## Centermass (Jun 19, 2014)

The Kurds doing their thing.


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## Kraut783 (Jun 19, 2014)

I do hope the Kurds come out of this okay....always felt they deserved a chance to be a country.


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## Brill (Jun 20, 2014)

ScribblerSix said:


> You could just call it al-Sham (the global jihad) - that's their other name and they refer to themselves as that a lot.
> 
> Why should we care? I don't think anyone will have answer for you. There's no 1 answer and will never be. If you're looking for a good versus evil war, I think you're going to have to wait a few years until World War 3 breaks out between the evil ATM army that won't release any funds and the transformers.
> 
> ...



Actually, they refer to themselves as just "the State".

Point of order: 9/11 occurred because some men killed innocent people on some planes only to kill more innocent people in the US instead of manning up and taking it to the battlefield.  I'm sure that's what Mohammad intended his followers to do...no, I really don't think so: _"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman. nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock. save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone"_

You mean that Iran IS NOT the dominant power in the ME?  They are projecting power in SY and AF and soon IQ.  Salafis in The Kingdom of Saud?  Ummm, like NOW (and since the Wahhabi revival in the '20s)?  According to the Saudi Emb, Governance in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia is based on justice, shura (consultation) and equality according to Islamic Sharia.  (sounds pretty salafi to me)

Regarding 9/11, as per UBL's fatwa in 1998 he clearly cited US bases in the Arabian peninsula, Operations Desert Storm/Fox, and turning Egypt, Saudi Arabia, Iraq, and Sudan into puppet states as reasons for the global jihad.

Ultimately our expansion into the ME, so we can have big SUVs and cheap gas, has fueled......anti-American sentiment in the Muslim community, why don't we try a different approach: withdraw, isolate, and expel those from the ME here on cultural exchanges.  If plan A isn't working, why are we continuing on plan A?  PACE works for a reason.


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## ScribblerSix (Jun 20, 2014)

lindy said:


> Actually, they refer to themselves as just "the State".
> 
> Point of order: 9/11 occurred because some men killed innocent people on some planes only to kill more innocent people in the US instead of manning up and taking it to the battlefield.  I'm sure that's what Mohammad intended his followers to do...no, I really don't think so: _"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman. nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock. save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone"_
> 
> ...



I respect that opinion, it's the opinion of most Americans who are skeptical of whether 70 years of our direct involvement (from our occupation of Beirut under Eisenhower and our rejection of the Sue invasion onward) would say. 

I think everything is said is very fair... indeed we have inadvertently handed Iran the keys to the Greater ME by taking out Saddam and the Taliban. 

Also, yes Saud does export more ideology than oil and someday our need for them will dimish as soon as we're independent in terms energy.

However, your post muddles two very different things... namely it imagines that if we did nothing there without being threatened things would naturally get better so as far as we would have less bin Ladens and non state actors threatening us with Jihad. Secondly, it imagines the GWOT was decided when we decided to put bases there in the 1990s.

My answer: 

1) bin Laden, in the great scheme of things, became irrelevant when we invaded and captured Kandahar. He no longer controlled a worldwide network.

That meant any new adaption of AQ would tie it to a pretender government in exile or a nation state like Iraq. Contrary to popular belief al Zarqawi worked out of a Baathist office.

Saudi, had its own ties to AQ like organizations, Iran with Hezollhah and the Sadrists,  etc. 

An organization like AQ cannot breath with a state becoming entangled with it. It becomes a tool, a tool for promoting state power across the ME. 

2) Given AQ (and other organizations) is a tool of governments, the second question is do you want a AQ state or Shia theocracy that could eventually obtain chemical weapons, an arsenal of other deadly material, and pose the threat the Soviet Union once did against the US? You don't have to look far to see Lenin was once a German agent, like al Zarqawi was an Iraqi one, and that small regional threats can morph into immense ones.

3) lastly, is American policy decided by these concerns or that we will be dictated to by Islamiats who would cherish seeing us no longer appearing to stand up for the little guys (as we were once when France helped us, even if it wasnt for most idealist of reasons. Surely, American policy shold be conducted regardless of a radical cleric issuing a fatwa against us?


----------



## Vat_69 (Jun 21, 2014)

lindy said:


> Actually, they refer to themselves as just "the State".
> 
> Point of order: 9/11 occurred because some men killed innocent people on some planes only to kill more innocent people in the US instead of manning up and taking it to the battlefield.  I'm sure that's what Mohammad intended his followers to do...no, I really don't think so: _"Stop, O people, that I may give you ten rules for your guidance in the battlefield. Do not commit treachery or deviate from the right path. You must not mutilate dead bodies. Neither kill a child, nor a woman. nor an aged man. Bring no harm to the trees, nor burn them with fire, especially those which are fruitful. Slay not any of the enemy's flock. save for your food. You are likely to pass by people who have devoted their lives to monastic services; leave them alone"_
> 
> ...


Look I like this post for the most part but what it's missing is the consideration of the balance of power.  An extremely destabilized ME with Iran pulling the strings has us sucking hind tit as Russia and possibly China gain more influence and power via Iranian proxy.  If our economy was stronger than it is now than we might be able to pull of isolationism in this case because we could still maintain our global influence thus being able to balance power....but it's not.  

It's a no brainer, gimme six gunships with JTACS to ride on board and we can take care of ISIS right now while they are in the open.  I'd Winchester the fuck out of my ride in 30 mins and do it everyday for a month to at least allow Iraq some breathing room to handle their shit.  We shouldn't be comfortable watching a pro Iran/Russia caliphate come together when we could stop it fast in its tracks.  That being said we may already missed the window to do so because of our leadership deficit in the WH.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jun 21, 2014)

Let them set up the Islamic state....get them all together, then Nuke the area....

“I say we take off, nuke the site from orbit. It’s the only way to be sure.”


----------



## CQB (Jun 21, 2014)

I heard today's news that ISIS have taken ground to the west of Bagdad by negotiation with local tribes & also secured a supply route from Syria into the northern Iraq. Looks like Bagdad is the destination.


----------



## Scotth (Jun 21, 2014)

Vat_69 said:


> Look I like this post for the most part but what it's missing is the consideration of the balance of power.  An extremely destabilized ME with Iran pulling the strings has us sucking hind tit as Russia and possibly China gain more influence and power via Iranian proxy.  If our economy was stronger than it is now than we might be able to pull of isolationism in this case because we could still maintain our global influence thus being able to balance power....but it's not.
> 
> It's a no brainer, gimme six gunships with JTACS to ride on board and we can take care of ISIS right now while they are in the open.  I'd Winchester the fuck out of my ride in 30 mins and do it everyday for a month to at least allow Iraq some breathing room to handle their shit.  We shouldn't be comfortable watching a pro Iran/Russia caliphate come together when we could stop it fast in its tracks.  That being said we may already missed the window to do so because of our leadership deficit in the WH.



I liked a lot of what your saying.

My issue is we need fundamental change in Iraq.  We need one of two things to happen IMHO.  We need to either break Iraq into 3 ethnic based countries or we need to have a government that incorporate all the parties to create a unified country.

Can we put down ISIS and prop up Iraq?  Sure we can but that doesn't fix the fundamental problems with Iraq.

Many times our government goes to the practical easy answer that doesn't address the real problems.  We do that domestically and internationally.

Hopefully, we won't make that same mistake but I'm not holding my breadth.


----------



## pardus (Jun 22, 2014)

CQB said:


> I heard today's news that ISIS have taken ground to the west of Bagdad by negotiation with local tribes & also secured a supply route from Syria into the northern Iraq. Looks like Bagdad is the destination.



I don't see Baghdad falling to them. I can't imagine Iran and the Shia allowing that to happen.


----------



## CQB (Jun 22, 2014)

I'm keeping an open mind on this one. It's symbolic, like Paris or Rome in WW2. 
Have ISIS had any real opposition yet?


----------



## AWP (Jun 22, 2014)

Symbolism and PR matter. ISIS can get a lot of mileage out of even making it to the outskirts of B-dad, much less taking all or a portion of the city.


----------



## RackMaster (Jun 22, 2014)

Read this last night and I say let Russia use their "Complete Support" and bleed over this.  

http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...liki-complete-support-against-jihadists-.html


----------



## chaarsadobeest (Jun 22, 2014)

I just want to add something regarding the etymology of ISIS: the final S in ISIS refers to بلاد الشام (blad aSham), which is the Arabic name for the Levant.


----------



## pardus (Jun 22, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> Read this last night and I say let Russia use their "Complete Support" and bleed over this.
> 
> http://english.alarabiya.net/en/New...liki-complete-support-against-jihadists-.html



I should have put a bet on this when I brought it up previously!


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 22, 2014)

Let Putin into Iraq, al-Maliki will rue the day he let Russians run roughshod over Iraq.


----------



## pardus (Jun 22, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Let Putin into Iraq, al-Maliki will rue the day he let Russians run roughshod over Iraq.



And every Xmas time send him this as a card...


----------



## Chopstick (Jun 22, 2014)

Just saw this on the web.
http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-...th-has-been-executed-isis-local-media-reports



> *ISIS found and the promptly executed Rauf Rashid Abd al-Rahman, the judge who sentenced Saddam to death*: a death which to many was the crowning moment of the second US invasion of Iraq, and the confirmation of successful US foreign policy.


----------



## hoepoe (Jun 23, 2014)

ISIS captured the primary corssing between Iraq and Jordan. As of last night, Jordanian reserve troops had been called into service to help secure the border.

Jordan is not like Iraq or Syria, they are better trained, better equipped and i hope to see them better keep ISIS out of Jordan.


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 23, 2014)

Rand Paul finally came out on Fox TV this morning and sail al-Maliki needs to go.  

I believe that should be a condition for airstrikes.


----------



## Red-Dot (Jun 23, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Rand Paul finally came out on Fox TV this morning and sail al-Maliki needs to go.
> 
> I believe that should be a condition for airstrikes.



That and control of at least half of the oil fields.


----------



## hoepoe (Jun 23, 2014)

Jordan has deployed (reportedly) missile launchers and tanks to the Iraqi border.


----------



## Red-Dot (Jun 23, 2014)

hoepoe said:


> Jordan has deployed (reportedly) missile launchers and tanks to the Iraqi border.



Interesting....link?


----------



## pardus (Jun 23, 2014)

http://en.ammonnews.net/article.aspx?articleno=25780

And...

*The Jordanian army has dispatched more troops, tanks, rocket launchers and armoured personnel carriers to the border with Iraq.*


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 23, 2014)

pardus said:


> http://en.ammonnews.net/article.aspx?articleno=25780
> 
> And...
> 
> *The Jordanian army has dispatched more troops, tanks, rocket launchers and armoured personnel carriers to the border with Iraq.*


Which means those F-16's that recently returned from Jordan can go back to Jordan.


----------



## ScribblerSix (Jun 23, 2014)

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27983222

Apparently our support is going to be "intense". It seems this administration went from "sustainable" to "significant" to "great" and now "intense" support. Musical semantic chairs.


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 23, 2014)

ScribblerSix said:


> http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27983222
> 
> Apparently our support is going to be "intense". It seems this administration went from "sustainable" to "significant" to "great" and now "intense" support. Musical semantic chairs.


Words will scare those militants into submission.


----------



## RackMaster (Jun 23, 2014)

Bomb the shit out of them.


----------



## ScribblerSix (Jun 23, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> Bomb the shit out of them.



So, the Iraqis tried to do it in Tal Afar and then this happened: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...t-troops-flee-strategic-town-of-Tal-Afar.html


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 23, 2014)

Wonder which country al-Maliki will flee too, Qatar?


----------



## Marine0311 (Jun 23, 2014)

I am not in favor of any U.S involvement.


----------



## CQB (Jun 23, 2014)

Just kicking the tyres but what if any, ground to air capability do ISIS have?


----------



## pardus (Jun 23, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Words will scare those militants into submission.



Well words are what caused Putin to withdraw from Crimea...  



ScribblerSix said:


> So, the Iraqis tried to do it in Tal Afar and then this happened: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...t-troops-flee-strategic-town-of-Tal-Afar.html



The DIVISION lost 17 men and they called it quits and ran, wow. Good job.


----------



## pardus (Jun 23, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> Bomb the shit out of them.



Bring in the B-52s and carpet bomb them a la Vietnam.


----------



## AWP (Jun 23, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Wonder which country al-Maliki will flee too, Qatar?


 
Is he anti-US enough for Qatar to grant him a visa?


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 23, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> Is he anti-US enough for Qatar to grant him a visa?


I think so.

His anti-Americanism is what allowed this to happen.


----------



## CQB (Jun 23, 2014)

T


pardus said:


> Bring in the B-52s and carpet bomb them a la Vietnam.


Thats what I was getting at in a roundabout way. The air component of Gulf War 1 went for 34 days. Does ISIS have any air defence toys?


----------



## AWP (Jun 23, 2014)

Then Qatar's like Motel 6, they'll leave a light on for ya'.


----------



## pardus (Jun 23, 2014)

He will always have a place to stay at the Fletcher Memorial Home


CQB said:


> T
> 
> Thats what I was getting at in a roundabout way. The air component of Gulf War 1 went for 34 days. Does ISIS have any air defence toys?



I seem to recall something about them having handheld SAMs now but I'm not 100% sure on that.


----------



## CQB (Jun 23, 2014)

Yes, I seem to recall something too along those lines, some vague stats or something.


----------



## pardus (Jun 23, 2014)

CQB said:


> Yes, I seem to recall something too along those lines, some vague stats or something.



With all the Army defectors and captured weapons in Syria, I'd be bloody surprised if they didn't have a fair number of them.


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 23, 2014)

pardus said:


> He will always have a place to stay at the Fletcher Memorial Home
> 
> 
> I seem to recall something about them having handheld SAMs now but I'm not 100% sure on that.


I saw a link on Drudge that said ISIS/ISIL grabbed some Stingers.
Don't know if it's valid (was busy and did not open link)


----------



## Marine0311 (Jun 23, 2014)

ISIS took over some army depot in the latest town and should be driving around all those humvees the U.S bought for Iraq


----------



## Red-Dot (Jun 23, 2014)

CQB said:


> Just kicking the tyres but what if any, ground to air capability do ISIS have?



Manpads (SA-7 and maybe SA-14's) are almost a given....I would not be surprised if they somehow got their dickbeaters on some Stingers.

ZSU 23-2's are also quite possible....all of this of course is only an educated guess.


----------



## Viper1 (Jun 23, 2014)

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...errorists_isis_will_regret_not_following.html

There may be hope yet...


----------



## RackMaster (Jun 23, 2014)

pardus said:


> Bring in the B-52s and carpet bomb them a la Vietnam.



Agreed!  I'm sure we all still have stockpiles of rounds that need decommissioning.   What better way than to clean up the desert.


----------



## pardus (Jun 24, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...errorists_isis_will_regret_not_following.html
> 
> There may be hope yet...



Indeed.




Bin Laden, the voice of reason...


----------



## Viper1 (Jun 24, 2014)

Some fundamentals just don't change.  A lot of that can be applied to COIN as well.  How many of those rules were violated by Western Powers in Algeria, Vietnam, etc?


----------



## ScribblerSix (Jun 24, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> Some fundamentals just don't change.  A lot of that can be applied to COIN as well.  How many of those rules were violated by Western Powers in Algeria, Vietnam, etc?



Sorry, just to clarify are you talking about the fundamentals that were applied by the West to conflict for those conflicts or by the other side, the FLN and other groups, their violations of being good insurgents?


----------



## Viper1 (Jun 24, 2014)

ScribblerSix said:


> Sorry, just to clarify are you talking about the fundamentals that were applied by the West to conflict for those conflicts or by the other side, the FLN and other groups, their violations of being good insurgents?



No, I am saying that the seven rules from the Slate article can be seen as fundamentals.  The article applies those fundamentals to the insurgents.  I was stating that those fundamentals can apply to the COIN force as well.


----------



## ScribblerSix (Jun 24, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> No, I am saying that the seven rules from the Slate article can be seen as fundamentals.  The article applies those fundamentals to the insurgents.  I was stating that those fundamentals can apply to the COIN force as well.



I think a good example was the NV ' capture of Saigon. I remember everyone thought they would slaughter the civies like Pol Pot would later do. For example, the females were worried they'd be shot for wearing American clothing.

They took the city, shot the top leadership who were stupid enough to stay in the city, sent the intellectuals to reeducation camps, but didnt touch the main fabric of society. They immediately set about turning the the electricity on, and everyone continued on with their lives as they would (just with no more war). They're still in power to this day.

My question is though, can ISIS or Maliki do the same if you have a heterogenous society like Iraq? Not changing the social fabric once you occupy a place that's so different ethnically, religious, from you seems very hard.


----------



## CQB (Jun 24, 2014)

Not from what I'm reading, ISIS are changing it drastically.


----------



## ScribblerSix (Jun 24, 2014)

CQB said:


> Not from what I'm reading, ISIS are changing it drastically.



Not sure, they entered Tikrit and people said they were quite polite. Also, they're willing to let Hindu Indian nurses continue doing their jobs: http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...es-to-stay-in-Tikrit/articleshow/36781443.cms


----------



## CQB (Jun 24, 2014)

From the information I'm seeing they are keeping infrastructure in place, medical, garbage disposal, re-education, pledges of support by tribesmen, burning of cigarettes, women in Burkhas & paying the tax by Christians. But I am rather suspicious of their future moves.
My suspicions are based on dealing with and speaking with ME minorities, Kurds, Mandayans, Copts, Catholics, Maronites & Assyrians. They all tell the same story and the story is one of antagonism towards them. I add that this was about five or so years ago before ISIS existed. Let's see if their claim of wanting to belong to a unitary government holds any water.


----------



## AWP (Jun 24, 2014)

The Taliban didn't storm into cities and become the guys we know overnight. They didn't implement their brand of crazy until that area was under thir thumb and THEN they brought out the hammer. I wouldn't expect ISIS/ ISIL to be any different. Take the area, solidify your hold, and then make changes.


----------



## CQB (Jun 24, 2014)

I concur, I stopped short in the above post of mentioning the crucifixions and public square executions.


----------



## CQB (Jun 24, 2014)

A little more on The Jordanian border. 
http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/sec...g.html?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#


----------



## ScribblerSix (Jun 24, 2014)

CQB said:


> I concur, I stopped short in the above post of mentioning the crucifixions and public square executions.



You have to ask though, do you think the Sunnis now under their "iron thumb" care? They did when al-Zarqawi previously tried this sort of thing and rebelled and that was the Sunni "Al-Anbar Awakening".

You would think ISIS would have learned from the most mistakes... don't piss off the locals.


----------



## CQB (Jun 24, 2014)

I think that they definitely have. The west of Iraq, from what I'm hearing has been turned by negotiation.


----------



## SpitfireV (Jun 25, 2014)

Seems to my eye to be some superficial similarities with the Algerian civil war.


----------



## ScribblerSix (Jun 25, 2014)

SpitfireV said:


> Seems to my eye to be some superficial similarities with the Algerian civil war.



Explain if you could?


----------



## xf4wso (Jun 25, 2014)

Watching events from next door, so to speak, I agree with those who think the hammer will come out later when their hold on power is secure.


----------



## CQB (Jun 25, 2014)

Uncle Samir Needs YOU!

The Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant group, also known as ISIL or ISIS, feeds updates from the front lines through several platforms including Twitter, Facebook, Instagram and YouTube accounts.

Jihad experts say ISIL has one of the most sophisticated social media strategies of any extremist group and that the recent surge in social media posts, in a variety of languages including English, is not simply an organic groundswell of support.






A tweet by an ISIL supporter in Iraq. _Photo: Twitter_

The group has had to play a cat and mouse game as it attempts to develop their online following, evade censorship and keep information flowing out.

This means constantly creating and swapping “official” accounts and the use of third parties to disseminate live updates and images.

*There's an app for that*

The campaign’s core was an Android app called The Dawn of Glad Tidings. It was launched in April and was available on the Google Play store for months. It is understood that Google has recently removed the app.

After signing up, a stream of tweets selected by ISIL's social media operatives would be posted to the user's account, staggered in order to evade detection by Twitter's anti-spam algorithms.

Earlier this month the group was live tweeting updates and images of its capture of the strategic town of Mosul in northern Iraq. The insurgents, under the leadership of Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, have launched a campaign to conquer much of Iraq, Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Israel and Jordan and unite the region into a caliphate, a kingdom under Sharia law.

Queensland University senior international relations lecturer Dr Andrew Phillips told Fairfax Media that jihadists have been using social media for years and that al-Qaeda and now ISIL have been particularly effective early adopters.
http://www.smh.com.au/world/cats-an...sil-social-media-strategy-20140625-zsk50.html


----------



## SpitfireV (Jun 25, 2014)

ScribblerSix said:


> Explain if you could?



Overt Islamist insurgency/conventional war evolved from a covert movement, an objective to reestablish the caliphate, massacres of kuffar soliders/civilians along the way. GIA is now AQIM IIRC too so you'd think they'd learn a lesson from a sister organisation.


----------



## Scotth (Jun 25, 2014)

CQB said:


> From the information I'm seeing they are keeping infrastructure in place, medical, garbage disposal, re-education, pledges of support by tribesmen, burning of cigarettes, women in Burkhas & paying the tax by Christians. But I am rather suspicious of their future moves.
> My suspicions are based on dealing with and speaking with ME minorities, Kurds, Mandayans, Copts, Catholics, Maronites & Assyrians. They all tell the same story and the story is one of antagonism towards them. I add that this was about five or so years ago before ISIS existed. Let's see if their claim of wanting to belong to a unitary government holds any water.



They 're using the heart and mind campaign that Hamas is so good at.  When Fatah was in charge everybody want to get paid but nobody actually showed up for work or got anything.  Hamas takes over and trash gets picked up people show up for work they provide medical clinics etc.  Israel goes on a bombing campaign in Lebanon and it's Hezbollah who pops up after the bombing is done and provides housing and money to all the people caught up in it.  Now ISIS is playing the hearts and mind game and all these organization are generally kicking are ass at it in the process.


----------



## TheSiatonist (Jun 26, 2014)

Didn't see this posted here. Looks like more guys will get the chance to kick some ISIS butt...



> *300 Special Forces Troops Head to Iraq with Immunity Assurances*
> 
> The Iraq government has provided sufficient assurances on immunity from local law for Special Forces to undertake their advisory mission with the reeling Iraqi army, Pentagon officials said Monday.
> 
> ...



Read more here....


----------



## Kraut783 (Jun 26, 2014)

Thoughts and Prayers to the SF guys going....


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 26, 2014)

Ironic that a lack of immunity is why we left.
al-Maliki is a clown.


----------



## racing_kitty (Jul 5, 2014)

An interesting development, for sure. 



> According to a report in the Iraqi news network Al Sumaria, the insurgent leader was injured during a raid led by Iraq's Shiite-led security forces in the west of Anbar.
> 
> "The Iraqi security forces carried out an operation in the city of Qaim on the border with Syria based on accurate intelligence and with the help of the Air Force where the leader of ISIL, Abu Bakr Al-Baghdadi was seriously injured," said Haidar al-Shara, a representative of the international parliament in Iraq.



According to the report, it hasn't been independently verified yet.  I hope it's true.  This guy needs to go ahead and die.


----------



## policemedic (Jul 5, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> An interesting development, for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the report, it hasn't been independently verified yet.  I hope it's true.  This guy needs to go ahead and die _painfully. _



FIFY.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 5, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> An interesting development, for sure.
> 
> 
> 
> According to the report, it hasn't been independently verified yet.  I hope it's true.  This guy needs to go ahead and die.


Meh, he'll run back to Syria and tell his followers to fight to the death.


----------



## AWP (Jul 5, 2014)

So the leader of ISIS is injured? Great...is this an organization which needs "a" leader or "the" leader? If this guy croaks, will the organiztion splinter or is it like AQ and persists without central leadership?


----------



## racing_kitty (Jul 5, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> So the leader of ISIS is injured? Great...is this an organization which needs "a" leader or "the" leader? If this guy croaks, will the organiztion splinter or is it like AQ and persists without central leadership?



This guy has taken to calling himself the caliph, and demands his fighters' loyalty in that capacity.  If he does die, I would be safe in expecting some kind of infighting to see who will be the next caliph.  He may have  hand picked a successor by now, in case he does cash in on his 72 virgin swine, but that won't mean much if a more ambitious jihadi wants the position bad enough.  

I could be wrong, but having a central leader looks to be a big part of this organization.  If he dies, there's no guarantee that they won't stop fighting, but they won't be as organized in their conquest until someone else assumes the title of caliph and keeps the fight moving in that direction.


----------



## Viper1 (Jul 5, 2014)

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ir...raq-having-trouble-advancing-pentagon-n147606

Perhaps they are over-extended...


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 5, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ir...raq-having-trouble-advancing-pentagon-n147606
> 
> Perhaps they are over-extended...


Ironic, considering they have taken advantage of other groups over-extending them selves.


----------



## Scotth (Jul 5, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/ir...raq-having-trouble-advancing-pentagon-n147606
> 
> Perhaps they are over-extended...



Good things happen when you don't throw down your weapon and uninform and run.  I'm just spit-balling here though.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 21, 2014)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/losing-iraq/

Nice piece of reporting from Frontline (great show) about the turmoil in Iraq.


----------



## CQB (Aug 21, 2014)

I've heard there succession etc., but the title Caliph is absurd.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 21, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> So the leader of ISIS is injured? Great...is this an organization which needs "a" leader or "the" leader? If this guy croaks, will the organiztion splinter or is it like AQ and persists without central leadership?


 


In spite of the carnage, they seem to have cohesive leadership and an advanced command and control structure. It has the look more of a movement than a personality cult. And because of that it may survive. But how long can any entity like this last? Organized or not, they're committing atrocity after atrocity and gleefully sharing the bloodletting on worldwide media? Sooner or later payback has to come.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 21, 2014)

http://www.funker530.com/is-militant-that-swore-muslim-conquest-in-america-killed-in-airstrike/

Karma.


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 21, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://www.funker530.com/is-militant-that-swore-muslim-conquest-in-america-killed-in-airstrike/
> 
> Karma.


.....is a bitch.


----------



## Blizzard (Aug 21, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> In spite of the carnage, they seem to have cohesive leadership and an advanced command and control structure...


Bah...That's impossible.  I have it on good authority that these guys are the JV team. :-"


----------



## CQB (Aug 21, 2014)

Geez, I thought the all powerful ME Tooth fairy would have protected them. Silly me.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 22, 2014)

http://news.yahoo.com/katie-couric-...f-slain-journalist-james-foley-070857840.html

So because their brother was an idiot and more importantly a coward, they want us to start paying up for citizens when they are kidnapped. What do people not understand about paying for hostages only increases the number of people kidnapped? How about the family pay for it? Better yet, make them also pay for the failed rescue operation as well. How much does an op like that cost? Considering the Bergdahl swap cost over a million dollars, I am willing to bet this was easily in the eight to ten million dollar range, depending on where they flew out of. Men kissed their wives, kids, and dogs good-bye knowing full well they may never see them again to go try and rescue him. Hell, one guy who never even met your brother bled for him. Where is the family on that? Had Foley been working for the US Government the situation would be different, but he willingly went to an area because he loved it. Sorry for your loss, but your brother was a piece of shit in my book.


----------



## Grunt (Aug 22, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> What do people not understand about paying for hostages only increases the number of people kidnapped?


 
The reality is that most people "don't think about it" because those types of situations are so foreign to them. They can't conceive what it's like being in those types of situations...plus, their days are crammed with thoughts about what they are eating for dinner and what's up with the Kardashians.

When they do see it on the news, they try their best to "empathize" with the "victim" and their family and put themselves there...and think about what "they" would want done at the expense of others (military, etc.).

That's why I don't give those types of  interviews much weight in my world. They often lash out at any and everyone other than the ones that put themselves in the problem they created and want everyone else to get them out of it.

I suspect it will always be that way.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 22, 2014)

> "SOTGWarrior, post: 350295, member: 6861"]Better yet, make them also pay for the failed rescue operation as well.../QUOTE]


 

In a perfect world^^^

Special Operations people know their expendability; its a measure of their dedication that they make no distinction whether or not the people theyre trying to rescue are assholes.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 22, 2014)

Agoge said:


> The reality is that most people "don't think about it" because those types of situations are so foreign to them. They can't conceive what it's like being in those types of situations...plus, their days are crammed with thoughts about what they are eating for dinner and what's up with the Kardashians.
> 
> When they do see it on the news, they try their best to "empathize" with the "victim" and their family and put themselves there...and think about what "they" would want done at the expense of others (military, etc.).
> 
> ...



Oh I agree, I just felt the need to vent. Perhaps this thread will get enough hits that when someone searches for James Wright Foley on Google it will be one of the top results to just give them some food for thought (unless any one here is a SEM and wants to bid on the keywords so it shows up first).


----------



## Crusader74 (Aug 22, 2014)

This is a piece I wrote about 4 months ago.. Might be relevant or it might not..

Syria’s Conundrum: Has the West Backed the Wrong Horse?

After nearly three years of fighting and many thousands of innocent civilians dead and nearly two million displaced in the country all the fighting sides finally came to Geneva to try and hammer out a peace deal. This is the first time that all the warring factions have come together in one room to negotiate a peace plan with the UN and the General Secretary, Ban ki moon.

Currently Syria’s warring factions comprise of state army defectors and civilians namely the free Syrian army. Fighting alongside them are various fundamentalists’ Islamic groups, who originate from outside of Syria such as the Al-Qaeda-backed al-Nusra Front and Harakat Ahrar ash-Sham Al Islami. These groups that vehemently oppose Western ideals and culture have declared a post-Assad Syria will be a sharia state whilst the other, the Western government backed National Coalition and its transitional government led by Ahmad Tumeh is made up of the FSA who desire a Western influenced democratic model.

The two main factions fighting on the opposition side have now turned their attention to the Free Syrian Army in a bid to ensure the moderate pro-west FSA will not gain the upper hand and achieve any status in a new post Assad Syria.  While this possible outcome is extremely bad for Syria, it could have dire repercussions for the international community should the fundamentalists gain the upper hand and win the current civil war.  

Al-Qaeda leader Ayman al-Zawahiri has called for the various groups to stop the infighting and come together under one banner of the Islamic flag. Both Al-Qaeda-backed al-Nusra Front and Harakat Ahrar ash-Sham Al Islami have stepped up their attacks on the moderate FSA which has resulted in over 1,000 deaths in this year alone.  

The chemical attacks of the 21st August of 2013 brought the international community’s spotlight firmly on the Assad regime for breaking international norms. The immediate consensus was for an intervention under a responsibility to protect mandate however, Russia and China fearing that this has the possibility to be exceeded like that of the Libyan crises vetoed the mandate.

As we have set the playing field on the various actors in this civil war, the long term outcome of whoever wins will have a longer bearing in the region and that of the wider international community.  Can the west afford to let the fundamentalist groups gain an upper hand?

Former CIA Director General Michael Hayden (PRESSE, 2013) has stated that keeping Assad in power could be the best possible outcome for Syria and the international community to bring back some stability into the region.  While this might sound impalpable for the regional actors who have backed the anti-Assad rebels, the fact remains that there is a possibility that the fundamentalist could gain control and install a Shariaist backed Islamic state.

After a decade long war in Afghanistan, no one in the west needs a reminder of what another anti –western sharia state could evolve to and the possibility of another state harbouring all who oppose the western way of life and ideals. What this could lead to down the road from now all because the west failed to pick the right horse to back.

While the talks in Geneva continue and will no doubt fail a number of times before all the factions get concessions, the war will continue in Syria and the fundamentalists groups get stronger with more and more disjointed men women and children joining their ranks. This current situation with the various groups baying for power could have far reaching implications for many years until there is a decisive victor. Who that victor is, will decide the regional hegemony and current policy on the region from the west.

*Works Cited*
Karen DeYoung, 2014. _http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...c80874-8451-11e3-8099-9181471f7aaf_story.html. _[Online] 
Available at: http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...c80874-8451-11e3-8099-9181471f7aaf_story.html
[Accessed 26 Jan 2014].

PRESSE, A. F., 2013. _http://www.businessinsider.com/michael-hayden-syria-assad-2013-12. _[Online] 
Available at: http://www.businessinsider.com/michael-hayden-syria-assad-2013-12
[Accessed 26 Jan 2014].


----------



## Dame (Aug 23, 2014)

I love this. So much win!
Westboro Baptist Church Says It’s Going To Iraq To Protest ISIS.
http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/22/this-should-go-well-westboro-baptist-church-says-its-going-to-iraq-to-protest-isis/…


----------



## racing_kitty (Aug 23, 2014)

One can hope!


----------



## Chopstick (Aug 23, 2014)

Dame said:


> I love this. So much win!
> Westboro Baptist Church Says It’s Going To Iraq To Protest ISIS.
> http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/22/this-should-go-well-westboro-baptist-church-says-its-going-to-iraq-to-protest-isis/…


Where can I donate for their airfare?


----------



## CDG (Aug 23, 2014)

Dame said:


> I love this. So much win!
> Westboro Baptist Church Says It’s Going To Iraq To Protest ISIS.
> http://www.addictinginfo.org/2014/08/22/this-should-go-well-westboro-baptist-church-says-its-going-to-iraq-to-protest-isis/…



Please, please, PLEASE be true.


----------



## AWP (Aug 23, 2014)

While I'd love to think they will do it, those cowards are doing it for the publicity. I guess not enough Americans are dying in Afghanistan, so they need another outlet for their attention whoring stupidity. At this point we just need to act like they don't exist. No press, ignore their pickets, don't give them a spotlight. They are a child looking for mommy's attention.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Aug 23, 2014)

Anyone else hear ISIS and think of Lana....?






:-"


----------



## Kraut783 (Aug 23, 2014)

IMHO, you can never beat this.  Sure you can kill them, capture them, recruit them as sources......but the mentality (Extremism / jihadist/ anti-Christian/anti-Jew/Sharia-law minded...etc) is always there.  If the West does nothing, they win.....if the West attacks, they win.......no matter what Western countries do, we will lose in the long run.  This might be coming out wrong, but I think the majority of you know what I mean.

It's very frustrating.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Aug 23, 2014)

Nah, we can beat this shit into submission bad enough that they never fuck with us again.  The problem is that the American people as a whole are fucking idiots and pussies who have a say in things they don't even remotely understand.

**ETA***

Took me a minute, but I realized some parallels between this stupidity and my own life.

I was bullied as a kid. Literally non stop as flies in africa, etc.  Know when it stopped?

When I started going after the motherfuckers systematically and kicked their god damned asses.  You attack me, I'm going to level you or at least try my damndest. Didn't matter if I was outnumbered, didn't matter who the fuck you were, didn't matter who your friends were.

You fucked with me, I came after you for a minimum of 4 blocks if you ran.

I realized this Freshman year in HS. The bullying stopped in my sophmore year. Nobody would fuck with me, even the people that normally wouldn't have given a shit (I grew up in cali and couldn't wear red or blue to school, take a guess)  because I was the "loco white boy".  

But, we're now raised in a society where kids don't grow up shooting, being bullied in school is the norm and we don't go after the perp but snuggle the victim, etc. 

"Man the fuck up" time has arrived, gents. 

Unfortunately for us, the willing and ready... the populace of this nation is by large and far in bed with cowardice and complacency.


----------



## Kraut783 (Aug 23, 2014)

I don't know....Israel has been actively fighting this mentality for awhile now both military and covertly.....and has yet to beat "them" into submission.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Aug 23, 2014)

Israel hasn't gone gloves off yet though, unless you count the 6 day war. They're still operating in an extremely restricted manner compared to going full operation overlord on that ass.


----------



## Kraut783 (Aug 23, 2014)

If it was up to me, allow IS to take over Syria, Iraq (minus Kurdistan).....allow Muslims to travel to the new Islamic State...let them create a homeland. 

Then carpet bomb the whole place.


----------



## AWP (Aug 24, 2014)

Yet another example of the UN's effectiveness. What a worthless assed organization.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/23/world/meast/iraq-violence/index.html?hpt=hp_t1



> "The situation of the people in Amerli is desperate and demands immediate action to prevent the possible massacre of its citizens," said Nickolay Mladenov, the U.N. secretary-general's special representative for Iraq.
> He said the suffering was "unspeakable" and demanded that the Shiite majority Iraqi government "relieve the siege" on Amerli.


 
Dumbass, if the gov't could do anything half of the country wouldn't be overrun with the West returning to bail out (again) their sorry asses. You aren't worth the shit monkeys fling at zoo visitors. You're demanding immediate action? So the UN has an army to...wait, that's right. You're a charitible organization filled with do-gooders who make speeches and suck up tax dollars.

Assholes.


----------



## pardus (Aug 24, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> Yet another example of the UN's effectiveness. What a worthless assed organization.
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/23/world/meast/iraq-violence/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
> 
> ...



Maybe they learned their lesson in Katanga when they broke their own rules by invading and subjugating/slaughtering a people?

#UN#CIA#Communism#Lumumba#Mobutu#killfreedom#TIA


----------



## Gunz (Aug 24, 2014)

UNAMIR was very effective in Rwanda...oh, wait, no it wasn't.


----------



## Etype (Aug 24, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> If it was up to me, allow IS to take over Syria, Iraq (minus Kurdistan).....allow Muslims to travel to the new Islamic State...let them create a homeland.
> 
> Then carpet bomb the whole place.


You're on the right track.  I'd go with some sort of bio agent.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 24, 2014)

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/0...-to-identifying-journalist-killer-as-british/

They called themselves The Beatles.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 25, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> They called themselves The Beatles.


 

Hell ain't hot enough.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 25, 2014)

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/world-news/sas-special-forces-forming-hunter-4097083
GET SOME!


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 25, 2014)

http://www.funker530.com/cag-and-sas-form-small-kill-teams-to-vanquish-islamic-state/

Here is a better article on the matter, http://www.funker530.com/cag-and-sas-form-small-kill-teams-to-vanquish-islamic-state/


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 25, 2014)

http://heavy.com/news/2014/08/task-force-black-sas-delta-force-isis-islamic-state/

*1. Task Force Black Is Chasing the ISIS Commanders to ‘Cut the Head Off the Snake’*





(Getty)

The troops will go in undercover and will aim to “cut the head off the snake.” The stated targets for the group is ISIS’ command structure. One of the main targets will be Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the Islamic State’s leader.

*2. Defeating ISIS Is a Top Priority for the US & UK Governments*




(Getty)

In the United Kingdom, Prime Minister David Cameron has told the SAS to make defeating ISIS a top priority, especially in the wake of the James Foley execution video.

*3. In Just 2 Years in Iraq, Task Force Black Killed 3,500 Insurgents*




(Getty)

This is not the first incarnation of Task Force Black, the group previously were assembled to defeat al-Qaeda in Iraq. A source told the Daily Mirror:

We need to go into Syria and Iraq and kill as many IS members as we can. You can’t negotiate with these people.

This is not a war of choice. They are cash rich and have a plentiful supply of arms. If we don’t go after them, they will soon come after us.

The Daily Telegraph reported in 2008 that between 2006-8, Task Force Black was responsible for the deaths of 3,500 insurgents in Iraq. General David Petraeus said at the time about Task Force Black, “They have helped immensely in Baghdad…they have done a phenomenal job.”

The group was the topic of the 2012 book, _Task Force Black: The Explosive True Story_ by Mark Urban.

*4. At Least 6 Agencies Are Involved in the Mission*





On the ground the group will be headed by SAS, Delta Force and Seal Team 6. They will be fueled by the intelligence work of the CIA, MI5 and MI6. The CIA are thought to have already developed a “kill list” which features those involved in the execution of James Foley.

*5. Intelligence Agents Are Trying to Recruit Sources of Information in the Region Where ISIS Operates*




Kurdish peshmerga fighters pictured in August 2014. (Getty)

The British government has already begun transferring “non-lethal” equipment to Kurdish fighters battling ISIS in the region. The equipment includes night-vision goggles and bulletproof vests.

The long-term strategy for the intelligence services in the U.S. and Great Britain is to develop spies and sources of information in the areas where ISIS operates.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 26, 2014)

http://news.yahoo.com/american-man-suspected-fighting-islamic-state-killed-205440929.html

I am not one to normally jump on the end is near bandwagon, but this will soon be on our soil if our commander in chief does not grow a ball sack, and soon.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 27, 2014)

If I were King, the _Mirror _would have pertinent information about this 25 years from now per declassification.  As it stands, I think their "source" for all this Task Force Black gushing is not from a significant inside loop. Looks good in print, though, makes us feel like bad shit's gonna happen to bad people


----------



## Etype (Aug 27, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://heavy.com/news/2014/08/task-force-black-sas-delta-force-isis-islamic-state/
> 
> 
> 
> *3. In Just 2 Years in Iraq, Task Force Black Killed 3,500 Insurgents*



I really like this quote.

At that rate, they could wipe out IS in around 3-10 years depending on whose numbers you go off of...  If they don't bring in anymore fighters.


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 27, 2014)

Etype said:


> I really like this quote.
> 
> At that rate, they could wipe out IS in around 3-10 years depending on whose numbers you go off of...  If they don't bring in anymore fighters.


I thought they were talking about TF Black during OIF.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 27, 2014)

SOWT said:


> I thought they were talking about TF Black during OIF.


They were. I had the great pleasure of meeting some of these warriors on Anaconda in 05. Much respect.


----------



## AWP (Aug 27, 2014)

Jesus....these guy are barely on the ground...hell, maybe their ADVON's barely on the ground, and the media and "unamed sources" are blabbing about their existence? Why stop there? Publish an MTOE, live stream helmet cam footage, or have football style introductions.

"This Sergeant First Class is a real pipe-hitting slayer of men. 6'3", 220, with the second fastest Fran time in C Squadron, he hails from Bumblefuck, AL and earned a Ranger Tab at 19. He'll be exciting to watch. Now we'll send you down to Angela at the COP. Angela, is your pregnancy test still negative?"
"Yes it is, Bob. Just Barely. I spoke to Justin McKiller's family this week and they couldn't be prouder of his accomplishments. His wife Pam, seen here with their two children in front of the family home on 101 Mockingbird Way..."


----------



## Etype (Aug 28, 2014)

SOWT said:


> I thought they were talking about TF Black during OIF.


They were- but I feel like they presented it as to say, "they'll have ISIL wiped out in no time."


----------



## CQB (Aug 28, 2014)

"Home before Christmas" is as old as 1914.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 28, 2014)




----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 28, 2014)

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/...or-the-islamic-state-desperately-wants-freed/

In Iraq, our company was tasked to provide area security and to safeguard a protected group of Iranians who were (still are I think) on the State Department's terror list. It amazed me at the level of education many of them had, including PhD's from Stanford, Princeton, and Oxford. 

What is troubling to me about this woman, is the fact that she was able to grab a hold of an Army officer’s M-4 rifle that was on the floor next to her while she was in US custody. I sincerely hope that officer is no longer in service. How she is still alive is another question I have too...


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 28, 2014)

Hates the west yet rocks RayBans. Good thing the hypocrite is dead.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 28, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> ...It amazed me at the level of education many of them had, including PhD's from Stanford, Princeton, and Oxford....


 
We used to call the University of South Florida "Terrorist U" because of Sami Al Arian (since deported) and all the Islamic engineering students for whom he helped get visas. And just 20 minutes down the road from CENTCOM/SOCOM...


----------



## Gunz (Aug 28, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


>


 

I'm trying to imagine advanced infantry training wearing a blanket on my head.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 29, 2014)

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/0...rom-isis-hideout-hints-at-biological-weapons/


Good thing our borders are secured.


----------



## Chopstick (Aug 30, 2014)

Ha.  Interestingly Facebook regards this story as "spam".  You have to click an override screen to either read or repost it.

http://news.yahoo.com/saudi-king-warns-west-jihadists-next-target-093701543.html



> "If we ignore them, I am sure they will reach Europe in a month and America in another month," he said in remarks quoted on Saturday by Asharq al-Awsat daily and Saudi-backed Al-Arabiya television station.
> 
> "Terrorism knows no border and its danger could affect several countries outside the Middle East," said the king who was speaking at a welcoming ceremony on Friday for new ambassadors, including a new envoy from Saudi ally the United States.



Thanks for the advice, King Abdullah.  Sadly,  we have no strategy.


----------



## CDG (Aug 30, 2014)

Chopstick said:


> Sadly,  we have no strategy.



Well of course.  The media is more concerned with dissecting what message the President's tan suit conveyed as opposed to talking about why we don't have a strategy.  So all President Obama has to do next time is wear a dark suit and everything will be fine.  "We still don't have a strategy, Bob.  However, the President did show how seriously he is taking this by showing up in a black, tailored, Armani suit.   Back to you."  "Thanks Jill...Ooops, Jill just got dragged off camera by several turbaned men waving ISIS flags.  As she was saying, President Obama sent a strong message to ISIS today by wearing a suit that almost seemed to swallow the light around it.  We now turn to our national security correspondent for an interpretation on what this means for the embattled Iraqi and Syrian citizens in the coming months."


----------



## racing_kitty (Aug 30, 2014)

All this talk of suits makes me laugh.


----------



## Marine0311 (Aug 30, 2014)

Kill them all!


----------



## Grunt (Aug 30, 2014)

The only way to deal with them is to terminate them from existence. Them and anyone that associates with them. We don't need to reason with them or try to deal with them in any way...we simply need to exterminate them since that is all they understand.

They can't and won't be dealt with on any level of reasonableness...they are simply thugs who prey upon the weak and kill them with impunity.

I still find it funny that people feel they can be dealt with as though they are a government.


----------



## Marine0311 (Aug 30, 2014)

Agoge said:


> The only way to deal with them is to terminate them from existence. Them and anyone that associates with them. We don't need to reason with them or try to deal with them in any way...we simply need to exterminate them since that is all they understand.
> 
> They can't and won't be dealt with on any level of reasonableness...they are simply thugs who prey upon the weak and kill them with impunity.
> 
> I still find it funny that people feel they can be dealt with as though they are a government.


 
I agree. Eliminate them all. Walk boots on the ground from one end to the other and kill them all.


----------



## Chopstick (Aug 30, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> All this talk of suits makes me laugh.


Letting the days go by, let the water hold me down!  I get it now. It's a code!  We are going to water board!!!!!!


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 1, 2014)

http://m.huffpost.com/us/entry/5717157


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 2, 2014)

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/art...ts-show-beheading-U-S-journalist?sf30567509=1


*BEIRUT* — An Internet video posted online Tuesday purported to show the beheading of U.S. journalist Steven Sotloff by the Islamic State group, which called it retribution for continued U.S. airstrikes in Iraq.

Sotloff, 31, who freelanced for Time and Foreign Policy magazines, had last been seen in Syrian in August 2013 until he appeared in a video released online last month by the Islamic State group that showed the beheading of fellow American journalist James Foley.

Dressed in an orange jumpsuit against the backdrop of an arid Syrian landscape, Sotloff was threatened in that video with death unless the U.S. stopped airstrikes on the group in Iraq.

In the video distributed Tuesday and entitled “A Second Message to America,” Sotloff appears in a similar jumpsuit before he was purportedly beheaded by an Islamic State fighter.

The Associated Press could not immediately verify the video’s authenticity. The SITE Intelligence Group, a U.S. terrorism watchdog, first reported about the video’s existence.

The fighter who beheads Sotloff in the video called it retribution for Obama’s continued airstrikes against the group in Iraq.

“I’m back, Obama, and I’m back because of your arrogant foreign policy towards the Islamic State ... despite our serious warnings,” the fighter said.

At the end of the video, he threatened to kill a third captive, a Briton, David Cathorne Haines.

Sotloff’s mother had pleaded for his release last week in a video directed at the Islamic State group.

Addressing the leader of the Islamic State group by name, Shirley Sotloff said in a video her son was “an innocent journalist” who shouldn’t pay for U.S. government actions in the Middle East over which he has no control.

White House press secretary Josh Earnest said he wasn’t immediately aware of the purported Sotloff video and wasn’t in a position to confirm its authenticity.

“This is something that the administration has obviously been watching very carefully,” Earnest said. “Our thoughts and prayers first and foremost are with Mr. Sotloff and Mr. Sotloff’s family and those who worked with him.”

A man who answered a phone listed in the name of Sotloff’s sister hung up when called by the AP.


----------



## pardus (Sep 2, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/art...ts-show-beheading-U-S-journalist?sf30567509=1
> 
> 
> *BEIRUT* — An Internet video posted online Tuesday purported to show the beheading of U.S. journalist Steven Sotloff by the Islamic State group, which called it retribution for continued U.S. airstrikes in Iraq.
> ...



Same asshole that beheaded Foley I think. That cunt has it coming...

*US Govt actions need to be paid for?

**Clearly you idiots weren't "watching very carefully" of you would know this before the mass media you moron.

***Fucking vultures, WTF do they expect when they call someone in these circumstances?!


----------



## Dame (Sep 2, 2014)

Too bad we don't have a State Department.


----------



## CQB (Sep 3, 2014)

I think that's correct, they are against anyone who they nominate as different. By naming the US it's part of the strategy to attempt to widen the conflict which will include more US involvement.


----------



## Dame (Sep 3, 2014)

CQB said:


> I think that's correct, they are against anyone who they nominate as different. By naming the US it's part of the strategy to attempt to widen the conflict which will include more US involvement.


Doesn't mean they aren't at war with the U.S. though. Just means they are seeking legitimacy by declaring themselves a state at war. If the WH's greatest issue right now is trying to make sure no one sees these monsters as a legitimate state government then the administration is in far worse trouble than even _I_ think. They are losing their own credibility by playing these legal games while announcing they have no strategy.


----------



## CQB (Sep 3, 2014)

Yep, US foreign policy does seem to be in the doldrums. If you think all the ISIL have is to say, "Don't shoot or we'll kill another one!" they don't have much. To me it proves whatever is in place, (even by accident or default) looks to work.
I'm of the opinion that they should sort it out themselves. Aren't you guys getting tired of being asked by the world to bail everyone out?
Also it seems there are successes & imagine if the US did the following, a small forest would need to be cut down to calm left wing angst.

http://www.todayszaman.com/national_pkk-raid-on-isil-in-turkey-reflects-govts-weakness_357510.html

...and don't the girls love it.

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/09/02/isis-fighters-terrified-death-at-hands-female-pkk-warriors/


----------



## RackMaster (Sep 3, 2014)

Threatening a new front against Putin to "free" Chechnya and Caucasia.

http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4470.htm


----------



## CDG (Sep 3, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> Threatening a new front against Putin to "free" Chechnya and Caucasia.
> 
> http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4470.htm


 
Maybe this was President Obama's strategy all along.  They get complacent and overconfident and decide to fuck with Putin.  Putin reminds them to not wake a sleeping bear and crushes them for us.  Brilliant!


----------



## Gunz (Sep 3, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> Threatening a new front against Putin to "free" Chechnya and Caucasia.


 
If you're going to threaten air strikes at least stand on a MIG 21 that looks like it might have a chance of eventually getting airborne.


----------



## Marine0311 (Sep 3, 2014)

I almost pray for the Red Army to steam roll over these people.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 3, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> Threatening a new front against Putin to "free" Chechnya and Caucasia.
> 
> http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4470.htm




They were far ahead of the ISIS times

http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=315_1313176550


----------



## racing_kitty (Sep 3, 2014)

Marine0311 said:


> I almost pray *fervently *for the Red Army to steam roll over these people.



Fixed it for you.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 3, 2014)

I pray for anybody to kill these motherfuckers.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 3, 2014)

I am not the "paranoid" type per se, but I think it is time to start stocking up on ammo. I spoke with a buddy of mine today who is a sales manager for a large AR manufacturer and I was given a quote roughly $300 to $400 under street price. Now all I have to decide between a 14.5" or 16" length.  

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/2/infidels-quran-verses-painted-christian-churches-i/


----------



## Brill (Sep 3, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> Threatening a new front against Putin to "free" Chechnya and Caucasia.
> 
> http://www.memri.org/clip/en/0/0/0/0/0/0/4470.htm



Sideshow Bob's car needs a good ol' warshin'.


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## CQB (Sep 3, 2014)

I've heard on the radio this morning (yes, how quaint you say) the good guys are getting a better picture of ISIS. They process the foreigners by removing their passports when they arrive, giving them a new name such as Ali el Bouchbaggi etc., these passports aren't returned. They're then given some indoctrination with their version of Islam as the newbies understanding of it may be slight. 
Then they're given jobs such as static guards or food distribution. Basic mil training is what it is, basic. 
The C & C, although central is devolved to a local level, to men who are basically crooks & this is the crux of the matter, it's a criminal enterprise. There looks to be no coordinated strategy between local groups. 
They're quick to provide essential services, water, electricity, garbage collection but the longer they stay it seems the more they are reviled. Also the big hook is that they are provided with a wife, usually Syrian. 
As this is verbatim from a radio report please excuse the lack of a reference, I'll endeavour to get that up when it becomes available.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 3, 2014)

http://www.businessinsider.com/isis-captured-a-key-syrian-air-base-2014-8


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## BloodStripe (Sep 4, 2014)

http://time.com/2911040/australia-isis-syria-iraq-terrorism/

The Aussies are number one in foreigners in ISIS in terms of per capita.


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## LimaOscarSierraTango (Sep 4, 2014)

IS threatens Putin.  Where is my popcorn?



> "This is a message to you, oh Vladimir Putin, these are the jets that you have sent to Bashar, we will send them to you, God willing, remember that," said one fighter in Arabic, according to Russian-language captions provided in the video.



SOURCE


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## xGenoSiide (Sep 4, 2014)

Anyone seen the relased video of IS fighters reduced to tears after they were captured by a group of soldiers.  They can talk the talk, but can't walk the walk when confronted by a worthy adversary.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 4, 2014)

xGenoSiide said:


> Anyone seen the relased video of IS fighters reduced to tears after they were captured by a group of soldiers.  They can talk the talk, but can't walk the walk when confronted by a worthy adversary.



I hope that's true.  Nothing like pointing a gun barrel in the face of a dirtbag.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 4, 2014)

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


A British jihadi who has threatened to ‘bomb the UK’ is today unmasked as a former supermarket security guard – who travelled to wage war in Syria despite being known to police.

Less than two weeks ago, the anonymous extremist known only as ‘Awlaki’ gave an extraordinary interview to the BBC where he boasted about fighting with the terror group Islamic State (IS) and laughed about the beheading of soldiers.

But today The Mail on Sunday can reveal that this fanatical Muslim who claims to ‘hate the UK’ is 27-year-old Omar Hussain, who grew up in High Wycombe, Buckinghamshire.




Astonishingly, he is still in contact with friends in this country and has told them he witnessed the execution of American journalist James Foley.

According to community leaders in High Wycombe, police knew of his extremist views and had arrested him at Heathrow last year on suspicion that he was trying to travel to Syria. Despite this, he managed to leave Britain for the war-torn Middle East earlier this year.

Lord Carlile, the Government’s former adviser on counter-terrorism, last night called for an investigation into how Hussain managed to leave the country.

‘It would be extremely troubling if it emerged that he was allowed to leave the country without a travel document. I would like to know what steps were taken given the knowledge of his intentions,’ he said.





The revelations come after Prime Minister David Cameron claimed the prospect of fighters from IS returning to Britain now poses the ‘greatest and deepest’ security threat in the country’s history. On Friday, the UK terror threat level was raised from ‘substantial’ to ‘severe’, meaning the risk of an attack is ‘highly likely’.

In his BBC2 Newsnight interview this month in which he disguised his true identity, Hussain said: ‘I hate the UK, the only reason why I would intend to return to the UK is when I want to come and plant a bomb somewhere.’

When asked if IS beheaded a number of people after taking towns around Aleppo a fortnight ago, he laughed and said: ‘Yeah, we did. I believe there were three or four guys we beheaded.

‘We then put their heads, as usual, in the middle of the town centre.’

Former classmates from Cressex comprehensive school in High Wycombe yesterday recalled Hussain as a ‘weird, social outcast’. ‘He would tell girls to dress conservatively and put their hair up, otherwise they would be punished by God,’ said one former pupil.

After leaving school, he worked for Morrisons for a number of years as a security guard. Last night, staff at the High Wycombe store recognised his photo. He had worked there three years ago, one colleague said, but left after vandalising a manager’s car.

Hussain travelled to Syria in January after telling his family he was going to Friday prayers at his local mosque. 

It is thought he went first to France, then overland to Turkey and over the border to Syria. Hussain has since been actively involved in fighting around Aleppo in northern Syria.

The Mail on Sunday has learned that he contacted a friend in High Wycombe in the days after Mr Foley’s execution, saying he witnessed it.

According to an informed source, Thames Valley Police are aware of his claims and know the identity of the individual he contacted. Police refused to answer any questions relating to Hussain, saying they cannot comment on individual cases.

Hussain, who is British-born and of Pakistani heritage, is the youngest of three sons and lived at a semi-detached house in High Wycombe with his mother and brothers.

Community elders said he became radicalised two years ago after he started mixing with a group of hardline Muslims known as salafis at his mosque in the Totteridge area of High Wycombe run by the Wycombe Islamic Society (WISE). Zahid Jawed, a spokesman for WISE, said Hussain did worship at the mosque but denied it had radicalised him.

One of Hussain’s neighbours, who asked not to be named, said that in June last year, he was detained at the airport as he tried to leave for Pakistan as police had suspicions that he might travel on to Syria.

As Hussain was questioned at Heathrow the police came and raided his house, the neighbour added. Hussain was also re-arrested a few weeks later outside his house, but released the next day without charge.

Mohammed Khaliel, a family friend and Muslim leader, said: ‘His mother is extremely distressed. She is crying a lot. They are a good family.’
Read more at 

Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


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## BloodStripe (Sep 4, 2014)

http://clashdaily.com/2014/09/relig...is-warriors-start-crying-captors-slap-around/


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## racing_kitty (Sep 4, 2014)

Mmmmmm, nothing like the taste of ocular-vaginal excretions from the glands of an estrogen-compromised faux alpha male.

In other words, that pussified goat rapist was crying like a little beeeyotch!!!  Ten to one odds that he's an import from a Western nation.


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## Gunz (Sep 4, 2014)

CQB said:


> & this is the crux of the matter, it's a criminal enterprise.


 
Free guns, women for the taking, unrestricted looting, instant power...must sound pretty good to the average ME dirtbag. But the big problem with recruiting dirtbags is...they're dirtbags.


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## xGenoSiide (Sep 4, 2014)

http://madworldnews.com/isis-crybabies-caught/

I guess the term 'soldier' should be taken with a grain of salt, as it was the Iraqi Military.


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## fox1371 (Sep 4, 2014)

That article regarding the individual from the UK seems to have a few holes in it in my opinion.  Not from the writer, but regarding the individuals claims.  First off, the UK has trouble keeping people OUT of the country, so I would assume that it's easily feasible to leave the country.  The individual states that he believes they beheaded 3 or 4 people?  Which was it?  3 or 4?  For a rent-a-cop, you'd think that witnessing beheadings would be a memory that sticks.  

The threat towards the Russian's should prove to be pretty entertaining.  At least there's at least one super power with a set of nuts that might do something.


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## xGenoSiide (Sep 4, 2014)

Witnessing something we would think should stick, doesn't mean it will.  When it's such a common occurrence, they are likely to forget the number especially if their adrenaline is pumping.  Think about police officers that fire their weapon in the line of duty. When asked how many rounds they fired, they usually give a low number when the reality is they fired much more than they remember regardless as to whether or not they were being shot at at the time.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 4, 2014)

Sorry, but I wouldn't forget how many people were beheaded in front of me. I could see possibly not knowing how many rounds you have left in a magazine, but to forget how many people you saw beheaded is something completely different.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 4, 2014)

http://www.funker530.com/top-isis-lieutenant-killed-in-us-airstrike/ Very nice, I like.


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## Dame (Sep 4, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> Mmmmmm, nothing like the taste of ocular-vaginal excretions from the glands of an estrogen-compromised faux alpha male.
> 
> In other words, that pussified goat rapist was crying like a little beeeyotch!!!  Ten to one odds that he's an import from a Western nation.


And there wasn't even any bacon involved? Sheesh.


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## CQB (Sep 4, 2014)

xGenoSiide said:


> http://madworldnews.com/isis-crybabies-caught/
> 
> I guess the term 'soldier' should be taken with a grain of salt, as it was the Iraqi Military.



That then would make them even more fucked. 
But I have to ask...why didn't Allah protect them?


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## BloodStripe (Sep 5, 2014)

CQB said:


> That then would make them even more fucked.
> But I have to ask...why didn't Allah protect them?


Because only during Ramadan does Allah grant victories.


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## CDG (Sep 5, 2014)

http://www.wnd.com/2014/08/5-year-old-christian-boy-cut-in-half-by-isis/

Reports of ISIS members beheading children, and in this case cutting one in half.  This is pure evil.


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## xGenoSiide (Sep 5, 2014)

CDG said:


> http://www.wnd.com/2014/08/5-year-old-christian-boy-cut-in-half-by-isis/
> 
> Reports of ISIS members beheading children, and in this case cutting one in half.  This is pure evil.



Looks like one more reason to add to the list of reasons why that whole 'group' should be wiped from the planet and history books.


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## CQB (Sep 5, 2014)

The date on the article coincides with another report I saw from Mosul regarding this. Though unverified, you'd seriously have to ask the question given their behaviour.


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## RackMaster (Sep 5, 2014)

"A few dozen" CSOR members are heading to Iraq as advisors with the Kurds.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/i...nd-special-ops-soldiers-as-advisers-1.2755841


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## Chopstick (Sep 7, 2014)

Another beheading victim.  
http://www.aol.com/article/2014/09/...=maing-grid7|maing9|dl1|sec1_lnk2&pLid=525822



> The mother of a Lebanese soldier held captive by the militant Islamic State group said photographs posted online Saturday purporting to show his beheading appeared to be real.
> Zeinab Noun said her 20-year-old son, Abbas Medlej, was "sacrificed" after supporters of the militant Sunni group posted images appearing to show a captured Lebanese soldier before and after he was beheaded.
> 
> "My son was sacrificed," said Noun, clutching a passport-sized photo of her son, a handsome, smooth-faced young man.
> ...


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## BloodStripe (Sep 8, 2014)

https://screen.yahoo.com/islamic-state-launch-gunboat-attack-100215839.html

A security source said Monday that Islamic State fighters attacked a riverside town north of Baghdad, with gunboats and a car bomb, killing 17 people and wounding 54. Among the dead in the attack, the largest of its kind in the area, were civilians and Iraqi forces


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## Gunz (Sep 8, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> The Aussies are number one in foreigners in ISIS in terms of per capita.


 
Well... depends on what we mean by _Aussies..._

These pieces of shit who are finding their way over to Syria from the US/UK/Australia etc, aren't really worthy of the citizenship designation. Hopefully, most if not all will be exterminated and will never return to the countries they betrayed.


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## CQB (Sep 9, 2014)

Fuckstain no. 1. The vid 

http://m.smh.com.au/nsw/kings-cross...as-senior-isil-recruiter-20140909-10e75m.html


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## Blizzard (Sep 9, 2014)

These guys apparently are itching to get their virgins:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...Assad-promise-liberate-Chechnya-Caucasus.html

Although it kind of makes for an interesting moral dilemma.  Should we hope that ISIS weakens Putin and his increasing influence or should we root for Putin to continues to put down his own internal rebellion?  Hmmm. Pick your poison.

Also read Robert Scales recent opinion piece...still noodling on it, even though it's not necessarily a revolutionary thought:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/opini...2d7bd4-3459-11e4-a723-fa3895a25d02_story.html


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## Gunz (Sep 10, 2014)

Blizzard said:


> Should we hope that ISIS weakens Putin and his increasing influence or should we root for Putin to continues to put down his own internal rebellion?  Hmmm. Pick your poison
> Also read Robert Scales recent opinion piece...


 
ISIL weaken Putin? I don't think so, Blizzard. Piss him off, maybe. Their threats of airstikes are ludicrous.

As far as the Scales piece goes, with all due respect to the Gen., I think he's enamored of SOF doctrine at the expense of reality. When you put water in the whiskey you don't get more whiskey, you get more water.  The beauty of SOF is that it doesn't _need _to be big. And our "conventional" forces are extremely capable and well-equipped.

I think there's a tendency by the media to overrate the military prowess of ISIL based on their brutality, hype and success. If these fuckers ever come up against _REAL _soldiers, they will die.


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## AWP (Sep 10, 2014)

GEN Scales lost me when he touted the "Great Wheel" movement. The article went down hill from there.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 10, 2014)

I was talking with another Marine who I served with in Iraq about all of this. I don't want us to go back. Part of me, the warrior part, does want to go back and just wipe them all out. Eradication.


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## Gunz (Sep 10, 2014)

Marine0311 said:


> ... I don't want us to go back. Part of me, the warrior part, does want to go back and just wipe them all out. Eradication.


 
The "warrior part" in all of us would gleefully kill these motherfuckers. But we won't go back. Whatever we do will be limited. The VA has it's hands full of burn injuries, blast injuries, TBI, spinal chord injuries, amputees...all acquired in the attempt to decapitate Saddam's regime and stabilize the madness that followed. You and your brother and sister OIF veterans did enough for the Iraqi people. Someday, maybe while you're still living, those people will thank you for it. But don't hold your breath.

I'm happy if we bomb the fuck out of them for the next three years. We've got plenty of bombs. When we run out, we can make more.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 10, 2014)

Tonight the President is expected to announce a ten country group that is going to confront ISIS. Whether that is just air strikes or  elements of SOF forces on the ground, I do not know.

One country that is actively involved but he won't mention is Iran. Iran is a double edged sword in this all. On one hand, they will help us kill ISIS, meanwhile on the other hand they will help kill any and all US service members as they did during the Iraq War given the chance.


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## Florida173 (Sep 10, 2014)

Citizens of ours and our allies being killed is never a good thing.. but getting involved in a war that has been going on for a long time is retarded.  Now all of a sudden we are on the side of Iran?  We've been at war with them since '79.  This is way more complicated than going in and fighting a terrorist organization and more like going in and killing Sunnis that were mobilized in a common cause to remove Iran's influence in Iraq.  Of course you have your psychos that are better off dead, but bottom line is that if I am a Sunni in any of these cities that ISIL is coming through, I'm not going to worry and just stay out of their way.

And the Sunni Kurds are only as much of our allies as it's in their best interest.  They could have just as easily gone the other way to support the Sunni Arabs if it looked like they had a fighting chance.


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## TheSiatonist (Sep 11, 2014)

What do you all think of this?  Seems pretty interesting (to me at least) as he mentions about the histories starting with the Middle East, oil, CIA, and ISIS.






I listened to about half of it a while ago but had to go to work. I will finish the other half later.


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## Viper1 (Sep 11, 2014)

The broad coalition the President spoke of may include: Britain, France, Turkey, Germany, Italy, Canada, Australia, Poland, Denmark, UAE, Iraq.

There are attempts to get Jordan and Egypt on board as well. 

http://www.politico.com/story/2014/09/john-kerry-us-coalition-isil-110626.html
http://www.worldbulletin.net/headlines/144087/kerry-in-iraq-to-build-coalition-against-isil-updated


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## Gunz (Sep 11, 2014)

Jihadists are like fireants. Destroy one mound, another pops up somewhere else. There's no possibility of an all-encompassing decisive victory. So about the best you can do is control the outbreaks through degradation. After 9/11 it was pretty apparent that we might be fighting this enemy, in all its various guises and incarnations, for decades and maybe  generations. The sheeple can't seem to wrap their heads around that.

Given the circumstances I don't know what more any president could do without committing Big Army/Big Marines. A coalition is a good thing. Ramped up air/drone strikes are a good thing. Giving our SOF/SF guys people to kill is a good thing. Arming and advising "moderate" Syrian rebels is...well...probably a dance in the viper pit. 

I heard Netanyahu some years ago testify before a US Congressional committee. Why we haven't listened very carefully to this man is beyond me.


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## AWP (Sep 11, 2014)

The odds of another Battle of Tours or Horns of Hattin are low, not impossible though. The world has learned not to engage us in a pitched battle, but to wage whatever we're calling it this year. Asymmetric warfare, Low Intensity Conflict, an insurgency... I think those are the conflicts of the near future.  Whether this is a political war under the guise of religion or a religious war under the guise of freedom (politics) doesn't matter if we continue to address it in terms of "democracy" or a Western-style government. We have to run away from this notion that our friends are clean and pure. Sometimes they are ugly "frenemies with benefits" like narcotics or human trafficking and human right's violations. We can do what's charitible and "good" or we can do what is right for our country. I'm not saying the solution is a thousand My Lai's, but our hands will be dirty, names will be called, casualties taken, and even old alliances and friendly nations may fall by the wayside.

Trade...trade is the lifeblood of nations and we need to check this menance before every nation's blood is threatened. Forget peace and democracy, those matter little when you can't feed your family. I don't care about elections in some 'Stan, I don't want to see metal caskets arrive in Dover only for us to go BACK to the same toilet over and over and over... "Measure twice, cut once." We need to do the job properly or don't do it at all.

But we need to stop wringing our hands like a bunh of old women in a bad Hollywood movie. we need to accept hard choices must be made...and lived with, unless we're willing to explain to our children and grandchildren why we failed and those consequences upon their lives.

We've made such a mess of things over the last 14 years if our children hated us I couldn't blame them.


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## Gunz (Sep 11, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> ...We can do what's charitible and "good" or we can do what is right for our country..."Measure twice, cut once." We need to do the job properly or don't do it at all...we need to accept hard choices must be made...and lived with, unless we're willing to explain to our children and grandchildren why we failed and those consequences upon their lives...


 
Well said and I couldn't agree more. In a perfect world we'd pursue these bastards into the pits of hell because we'd realize that there is no room on this small planet for their kind of twisted vision. War to the knife, the knife to the hilt. Unfortunately, however, the Sheeple don't want hard choices. And the Sheeple elect the politicians. Nobody has the stomach for it. As hawkish as I am I'm leery of the prospect of any return of conventional forces to Iraq just because I know that whatever we do _won't be enough. _We won't stick with it, we won't see it through. We can send six divisions over there, engage ISIL, kill thousands of them, declare victory, and watch the remnants melt into the urban rat's maze. And then where are we? They start planting IEDs and running ambushes from civilian areas and it's deja vu 2007.

I fear our grandchildren may be hating us and fighting Jihadists at the same time.


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## AWP (Sep 11, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> Well said and I couldn't agree more. In a perfect world we'd pursue these bastards into the pits of hell because we'd realize that there is no room on this small planet for their kind of twisted vision. War to the knife, the knife to the hilt. Unfortunately, however, the Sheeple don't want hard choices. And the Sheeple elect the politicians. Nobody has the stomach for it. As hawkish as I am I'm leery of the prospect of any return of conventional forces to Iraq just because I know that whatever we do _won't be enough. _We won't stick with it, we won't see it through. We can send six divisions over there, engage ISIL, kill thousands of them, declare victory, and watch the remnants melt into the urban rat's maze. And then where are we? They start planting IEDs and running ambushes from civilian areas and it's deja vu 2007.
> 
> I fear our grandchildren may be hating us and fighting Jihadists at the same time.


 
I agree with you, but we also need to understand this is a war at home as well. "Warheads on foreheads" will matter as much as educating our citizens. If we keep screaming "Threat!" and nothing happens, people will become complacent.  We won't know how many genuine "no shit" attacks were halted (hence the lack of any action), and so this becomes a vicious cycle of death, response, rhetoric, a cooldown, and then death, a response...

When I see words like "Sheeple" I agree, but I cringe; people won't listen if they're insulted. We shouldn't mollycoddle them, but name calling won't get us anywhere. We're fighting ideology and religion, two very difficult issues to counter. Educate, woo, seduce, re-train, recruit...brand it however you will, but that's what we need to do here at home. People need the will to fight and we've lost that will.


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## DA SWO (Sep 11, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> When I see words like "Sheeple" I agree, but I cringe; people won't listen if they're insulted. We shouldn't mollycoddle them, but name calling won't get us anywhere. We're fighting ideology and religion, two very difficult issues to counter. *Educate, woo, seduce, re-train, recruit...brand it however you will, but that's what we need to do here at home. People need the will to fight and we've lost that will.*



We can't educate because those that control the education system have subscribed to an ideology that allows radicals access to our kids, while denying access to those whose viewpoints are different.

People won't stand up until car bombs and Sharia Law happen in America, then it may be too late.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 11, 2014)

SOWT said:


> We can't educate because those that control the education system have subscribed to an ideology that allows radicals access to our kids, while denying access to those whose viewpoints are different.
> 
> People won't stand up until car bombs and Sharia Law happen in America, then it may be too late.



My Grandfather is a World War 2 Army Battle of the Buldge veteran (Bronze Star). He is disgusted when he watches the news about all this shit happening. Granted he is 92 but still hardcore. He wants to pick up his rifle and go kick some ass haha. 

Meanwhile today our society is weak.


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## RackMaster (Sep 11, 2014)

I think the release of DomCT success stories and full details of the threats would help change some sheeple minds.  Don't identify organization or unit, just the faces of the fucks we caught and how many innocents would have died.


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## JHD (Sep 11, 2014)

I mentioned going to the WWII museum last week, and was thinking, during that time, the US was trying so hard to stay out of the conflicts world wide, until finally we were sucked in.  But once we were finally sucked in, everyone (citizens and military alike) were all in.  The mindset of people now is pretty much "meh" until it affects them directly.  We are currently being lulled to sleep.  I am hoping we wake up before it is too late.


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## Grunt (Sep 11, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> ...help change some sheeple minds...


 
One would hope so, but I don't feel it would happen. Many people don't really know what is going on in the ME. They have lost interest. The beheadings caused "shock value" and some instant anger for some, but many have gone about their daily lives while losing interest about things happening "over there."

If it doesn't involve them or a close friend/family member, it is often seen as someone else's problem.

I hate to have to type that...but, I feel it is the regrettable truth.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 11, 2014)

@CDG, who are most people that you refer to? I go to school with a lot of most people, and most of them are very up to date with at least what is going on with ISIS. When we are going to war people pay attention. I was suprised at how well versed some of the younger kids (18-19) were when it came to ISIS, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and even the plight if the Kurds.


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## CDG (Sep 11, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> @CDG, who are most people that you refer to? I go to school with a lot of most people, and most of them are very up to date with at least what is going on with ISIS. When we are going to war people pay attention. I was suprised at how well versed some of the younger kids (18-19) were when it came to ISIS, the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, and even the plight if the Kurds.


 
????  @TLDR20, I think you mixed myself and Agoge up.


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## Gunz (Sep 11, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> I agree with you, but we also need to understand this is a war at home as well. "Warheads on foreheads" will matter as much as educating our citizens. If we keep screaming "Threat!" and nothing happens, people will become complacent.  We won't know how many genuine "no shit" attacks were halted (hence the lack of any action), and so this becomes a vicious cycle of death, response, rhetoric, a cooldown, and then death, a response...
> 
> When I see words like "Sheeple" I agree, but I cringe; people won't listen if they're insulted. We shouldn't mollycoddle them, but name calling won't get us anywhere. We're fighting ideology and religion, two very difficult issues to counter. Educate, woo, seduce, re-train, recruit...brand it however you will, but that's what we need to do here at home. People need the will to fight and we've lost that will.


 
Israel is the perfect template for what you're describing, Free. I don't know if that kind of national vigilance is possible in this country without repeated attacks. It didn't take all that long after 9/11 before many of our citizens lapsed into the complacency you're talking about. There may be widespread outrage over ISIL atrocities now, but how long before the tank runs dry? A national will to fight should last the duration of the fight. Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but I question our ability to re-educate, woo and seduce our people into that kind of enduring warrior spirit.


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## Grunt (Sep 11, 2014)

QUOTE="CDG, post: 352660, member: 2530"]????  @TLDR20, I think you mixed myself and Agoge up.[/QUOTE]

I think you may be right.

@TLDR20 The "most" that I was referring to should have been "many". But, with that said, my son is a junior in college right now majoring in Political Science and is currently taking several ME classes. Currently, I do a lot with him and his peers. Those that have a vested interest in the ME know what is going on there in relation to ISIS, but...those are the few in my opinion.

In dealing with a lot of the people that I meet through him, there aren't very many that know what is going on with ISIS. In fact, the majority of them -- yep, the majority -- have no concept of what ISIS even stands for. To me, that is disappointing. I am just the opposite of you in that I am disappointed at the amount of 18-20 year olds that have no clue as to what is truly happening there. From your post, it appears you have the pleasure of being around young adults who obviously make a conscious effort to stay apprized of current events. I wish more did. That is one of the few things that impress me these days.

My son has a personal mission of trying to school as many peers as he can on what is happening outside of their small world. I have always taught him to stay abreast of world events because one never knows when we (U.S.) will find ourselves right in the middle of whatever is happening wherever. We had a conversation last week about how he can't understand how so many of the people he hangs around with is so clueless.

I was recently talking with people that I work with. I was unpleasantly surprised at how few of them actually have a grasp of what is happening over there. Many can talk about ISIS, the ME, and beheadings, but few of them can speak of it at a level any deeper than what they have seen on the news.

Hopefully that somewhat answered your question.


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## Etype (Sep 11, 2014)

Agoge said:


> Many people don't really know what is going on in the ME.


Many people, including the civilian leadership don't know.  I'm so tired of hearing, "Sunni, Shia, and Kurd,"  that's like saying, "Catholic, Baptist, and Mexican."

I remember a time back at Sather Air Base (BIAP) hearing a DOS lady call a chow hall worker, "habibi," Arabic for- honey bun, toots, sweetie, etc. 
I tried to explain to her that he was a TCN contractor and that was Sri Lanka, or Bangladeshi, or maybe Indian- but definitely not Iraqi, and not Arabic speaking. 
She said, "how do you know?" 
I said, "look at him, it's obvious." 
She said, "well I've been calling him that for a long time and he always smiles."
Wow, can't argue with that logic.  Those are the people that are driving the train.


----------



## AWP (Sep 11, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> Israel is the perfect template for what you're describing, Free. I don't know if that kind of national vigilance is possible in this country without repeated attacks. It didn't take all that long after 9/11 before many of our citizens lapsed into the complacency you're talking about. There may be widespread outrage over ISIL atrocities now, but how long before the tank runs dry? A national will to fight should last the duration of the fight. Maybe I'm just a pessimist, but I question our ability to re-educate, woo and seduce our people into that kind of enduring warrior spirit.



You are probably correct, but if you are then we've lost this war.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 11, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> You are probably correct, but if you are then we've lost this war.



I want to hit agree and hate all at the same time. I agree because it's true, but I hate it because it's true.


----------



## pardus (Sep 11, 2014)

JHD said:


> I mentioned going to the WWII museum last week, and was thinking, during that time, *the US was trying so hard to stay out of the conflicts world wide, until finally we were sucked in.  But once we were finally sucked in, everyone (citizens and military alike) were all in. * The mindset of people now is pretty much "meh" until it affects them directly.  We are currently being lulled to sleep.  I am hoping we wake up before it is too late.



Actually neither of those sentences are accurate.


----------



## JHD (Sep 12, 2014)

pardus said:


> Actually neither of those sentences are accurate.



That was my take on it, although I am sure not 100% were, but largely it seemed like that was the case.  My reasoning for stating that is that we didn't really enter the war until attacked, even though we were being encouraged to, we resisted.  Once we did, our military had to expand as they were so much smaller than the Japanese and Germans.  Our citizens seemed more willing to sacrifice for our military than they seem to be willing to do now.  The government, political machine, and the people seemed more united for a common cause much more significantly then than now.


----------



## AWP (Sep 12, 2014)

pardus said:


> Actually neither of those sentences are accurate.


 
Roosevelt wanted to enter the war, the American people generally did not until Dec. 7. Isolationist sentiments were so strong they forced FDR to slowly roll out support for the Allies, particularly as the 1940 elections loomed.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 12, 2014)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/u...cked-to-lead-effort-vs-isis.html?src=twr&_r=0

Gen (Ret) Allen to lead the strategy against ISIS. As some may know, he has led troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan. His work in Iraq includes empowering the Sunni tribes by offering them money and protection (Google search "The Awakening Movement").


----------



## Marine0311 (Sep 12, 2014)

It pains me to see what is going on.


----------



## Etype (Sep 12, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://www.nytimes.com/2014/09/12/u...cked-to-lead-effort-vs-isis.html?src=twr&_r=0
> 
> Gen (Ret) Allen to lead the strategy against ISIS. As some may know, he has led troops in both Iraq and Afghanistan. His work in Iraq includes empowering the Sunni tribes by offering them money and protection (Google search "The Awakening Movement").


Great, lets take someone who was a part of a failing policy in Afghanistan and have him enact obviously failed policies in Iraq.

The Awakening Method- we tried that one, it obviously didn't yield lasting results, now we're back.

You can screw a goat all you want, it won't give birth to a minotaur or a faun or any other type of mythical beast- but keep trying.  I think you guys get what I'm saying.


----------



## Marine0311 (Sep 12, 2014)

Etype said:


> Great, lets take someone who was a part of a failing policy in Afghanistan and have him enact obviously failed policies in Iraq.
> 
> The Awakening Method- we tried that one, it obviously didn't yield lasting results, now we're back.
> 
> You can screw a goat all you want, it won't give birth to a minotaur or a faun or any other type of mythical beast- but keep trying.  I think you guys get what I'm saying.



Somewhat? We should do something else?


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 12, 2014)

I believe this to be solely a political move. General Allen was throw in front of the bus during the General Petraeus CIA scandal. He was found to be innocent but not before his career was tarnished.


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 12, 2014)

Etype said:


> Great, lets take someone who was a part of a failing policy in Afghanistan and have him enact obviously failed policies in Iraq.
> 
> The Awakening Method- we tried that one, it obviously didn't yield lasting results, now we're back.
> 
> You can screw a goat all you want, it won't give birth to a minotaur or a faun or any other type of mythical beast- but keep trying.  I think you guys get what I'm saying.


Sadly I agree.
The "awakening" worked because we forced the Government to treat all tribes semi-equal.
It won't work again because both sides know we are out of Iraq (again) as soon as possible.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 12, 2014)

Agoge said:


> In dealing with a lot of the people that I meet through him, there aren't very many that know what is going on with ISIS. In fact, the majority of them -- yep, the majority -- have no concept of what ISIS even stands for. To me, that is disappointing. I am just the opposite of you in that I am disappointed at the amount of 18-20 year olds that have no clue as to what is truly happening there. From your post, it appears you have the pleasure of being around young adults who obviously make a conscious effort to stay apprized of current events. I wish more did. That is one of the few things that impress me these days.



For me, people referring to it as ISIS is a good indication that they don't really know what it stands for, unless they really know what the last "s" stands for.  You could just refer to it as DAISH if you wanted.



Etype said:


> Many people, including the civilian leadership don't know. I'm so tired of hearing, "Sunni, Shia, and Kurd," that's like saying, "Catholic, Baptist, and Mexican."



The times of Catholics being OK with killing Baptists are long gone.  And you should be tired of hearing about something that is pretty fundamental to this problem set, otherwise why would you think that the Iraqi government would be making such drastic changes during this crisis?


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 12, 2014)

Etype said:


> The Awakening Method- we tried that one, it obviously didn't yield lasting results, now we're back.



I think you missed the point that the Awakening was entirely made of Sunnis, mostly former insurgents, that were helping to fight against JAM and keep the peace in their neighborhoods.  Most are probably with ISIL now.


----------



## Etype (Sep 12, 2014)

Florida173 said:


> For me, people referring to it as ISIS is a good indication that they don't really know what it stands for, unless they really know what the last "s" stands for.  You could just refer to it as DAISH if you wanted.
> The times of Catholics being OK with killing Baptists are long gone.  And you should be tired of hearing about something that is pretty fundamental to this problem set, otherwise why would you think that the Iraqi government would be making such drastic changes during this crisis?


1.  ISIL and ISIS are the same thing... Shams means Levant in Arabic, what are you saying?
2.  The point I was making is this- Sunni and Shia are sects of Islam, Kurd is an ethnicity- most Kurds are Sunni.  There are Sunni extremists from the Kurdish ethnicity (Ansar al Sunnah was a big one) just as there are from the Arab ethnicity, just in smaller numbers.  There are also Sunni extremists from many African ethnicities, southeast Asian, Chechen, etc.  I guarantee there are Sunni Kurds in IS- the extremists are fighting the secular Kurdish government, not the Kurds themselves.

Look at it this way- Mexicans could be Catholic, Baptist, Agnostic, whatever...  So why would I ever say, "there are three groups at work, Catholics, Baptists, and Mexicans."  That is the oversimplification that is, "Shia, Sunni, Kurd."



Florida173 said:


> I think you missed the point that the Awakening was entirely made of Sunnis, mostly former insurgents, that were helping to fight against JAM and keep the peace in their neighborhoods.  Most are probably with ISIL now.


The Awakening Council helped fight against AQI, aka JTJ- not JAM.  JAM was a localized threat to Baghdad, Basra, and the spattering of Shia holy cities to the south of Baghdad.  JAM only became a major concern after the 2006 killing of Zarqawi and AQIs subsequent demise.  There was no JAM in Anbar for the Awakening to fight to begin with.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 12, 2014)

Etype said:


> 1. ISIL and ISIS are the same thing... Shams means Levant in Arabic, what are you saying?


Sure they're the same thing, but we are only using one in the community that track it.  Talking about the people that think it refers to Syria.


Etype said:


> The Awakening Council helped fight against AQI, aka JTJ- not JAM. JAM was a localized threat to Baghdad, Basra, and the spattering of Shia holy cities to the south of Baghdad. JAM only became a major concern after the 2006 killing of Zarqawi and AQIs subsequent demise. There was no JAM in Anbar for the Awakening to fight to begin with.


A bunch of the sons of Iraq working in Baghdad were former AQI and were generally keeping the peace against some the Shia militias. Although I'm only going off of my time running them as sources, so maybe it's dependent on location.

Looking at this shit everyday in message traffic by all means doesn't make me an expert, but I'm definitely not going off of just reading the paper or random articles.  Granted I haven't been providing direct support for the problem set for about a month since getting back from SOCFWD.

I'm not disagreeing with anything you're saying.... Just needs to be clarified


----------



## Etype (Sep 13, 2014)

Florida173 said:


> Sure they're the same thing, but we are only using one in the community that track it.  Talking about the people that think it refers to Syria.
> 
> A bunch of the sons of Iraq working in Baghdad were former AQI and were generally keeping the peace against some the Shia militias. Although I'm only going off of my time running them as sources, so maybe it's dependent on location.
> 
> ...


The Sunni militias were 100% defensive, anything involving Shia groups stemmed from sectarian attacks by Shias into Sunni neighborhoods.

This is definitely not the place to pump up street cred with talk of sources and message traffic...


----------



## Brill (Sep 13, 2014)

Before they were called AQI, we called them Islamic State of Iraq.  Outside of AMZ, I don't remember anyone claiming AQ status especially after the VBIEDs of the Shia shrines.

Strange days.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 13, 2014)

Etype said:


> The Sunni militias were 100% defensive, anything involving Shia groups stemmed from sectarian attacks by Shias into Sunni neighborhoods.



That was indeed the intent...



Etype said:


> This is definitely not the place to pump up street cred with talk of sources and message traffic...


Putting it into perspective.  No need to pump anything up. I'm not talking from outdated experience.


lindy said:


> Before they were called AQI, we called them Islamic State of Iraq. Outside of AMZ, I don't remember anyone claiming AQ status especially after the VBIEDs of the Shia shrines.


Just be careful not to conflate ISI then with what is going on now, especially when considering the current relationship with AQ and ISIL.


----------



## Brill (Sep 13, 2014)

Florida173 said:


> Just be careful not to conflate ISI then with what is going on now, especially when considering the current relationship with AQ and ISIL.



In my view, ISIL now is what AQ was in the early 80's.  I think we should let the Iranians have this one and let's sit back to watch.  Perhaps let the Iranians get some exposure to the receiving end of their EFPs.


----------



## Etype (Sep 13, 2014)

Florida173 said:


> Putting it into perspective.  No need to pump anything up. I'm not talking from outdated experience.


There's no point in referencing anything that occurs in the secret or TS realm.



Florida173 said:


> Just be careful not to conflate ISI then with what is going on now, especially when considering the current relationship with AQ and ISIL.


IS in its current form directly tracks their lineage back through ISI/JTJ, they even state that in their own publications.  ISI/JTJ had the SAME relationship with AQ as IS does now.  Zarqawi broke ties with AQ, after his death AQ tried to reinitiate a relationship with the group- Al Baghdadi moved the group away from AQ once again.

Nearly every post you've made so far on this topic has contained some form of misinformation that has been presented in contradiction to someone.


----------



## Brill (Sep 13, 2014)

Interesting article.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown...remists-may-pose-bigger-threat-islamic-state/


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 13, 2014)

lindy said:


> Interesting article.
> 
> http://www.pbs.org/newshour/rundown...remists-may-pose-bigger-threat-islamic-state/
> 
> "In addition, according to classified U.S. intelligence assessments..."​



I'm really sick of this type of stuff.  Not going to comment on KG, but interesting they mention that it's a Syrian extremist group.


----------



## racing_kitty (Sep 13, 2014)

Mmmmm, I love the taste of a pissing contest when it comes to learning as much as I can about a conflict.  Tastes like vinegar with a victory label slapped on the bottle.


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 13, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> Mmmmm, I love the taste of a pissing contest when it comes to learning as much as I can about a conflict.  Tastes like vinegar with a victory label slapped on the bottle.


Nasty comment in here somewhere......


----------



## Marine0311 (Sep 13, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Nasty comment in here somewhere......


 
You have no idea.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 13, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> Mmmmm, I love the taste of a pissing contest when it comes to learning as much as I can about a conflict.  Tastes like vinegar with a victory label slapped on the bottle.



Not much of a pissing contest.  I'm more than happy to continue the conversation on a more appropriate network where we can talk facts and not speculation.


----------



## Marauder06 (Sep 13, 2014)

General McChrystal's take:

http://news.msn.com/videos/?ap=True&videoid=f189696c-1d54-4eb9-8637-9c422da93289


----------



## Marine0311 (Sep 13, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> General McChrystal's take:
> 
> http://news.msn.com/videos/?ap=True&videoid=f189696c-1d54-4eb9-8637-9c422da93289


 
A good assesment by the General. How true it is.


----------



## Dame (Sep 13, 2014)

Meanwhile, back in the pit of despair...


> *Video shows slaying of British aid worker*
> By ZEINA KARAM and SYLVIA HUI
> 
> BEIRUT (AP) — Islamic State extremists released a video showing the beheading of British aid worker David Haines, who was abducted in Syria last year, and British Prime Minister David Cameron late Saturday condemned his slaying as "an act of pure evil."
> ...


*Probably NSFW. Didn't watch, just read the article.*
http://news.yahoo.com/video-purports-show-british-aid-worker-slain-224037242.html


----------



## RackMaster (Sep 13, 2014)

Not surprised.  Seems like they want the Brits to play.


----------



## Marauder06 (Sep 13, 2014)

...and then there's this, some advice on how to fight Islamist terrorists from someone who has actually done it:

http://www.havokjournal.com/militar...ne-who-actually-knows-how-to-fight-terrorists


----------



## Marine0311 (Sep 13, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> ...and then there's this, some advice on how to fight Islamist terrorists from someone who has actually done it:
> 
> http://www.havokjournal.com/militar...ne-who-actually-knows-how-to-fight-terrorists


 
If only people would listen! Our childern and grandkids will be fighting these guys if we don't.


----------



## Etype (Sep 13, 2014)

To highlight the AQI/JTJ-IS/ISIL link, the flag of IS was used by JTJ under Zarqawi, although not very often.  There's actually a picture of Zarqawi with what s now known as the IS flag.

If you look at this flag, which is the old JTJ/AQI flag, the top text says, 'The only god is allah, mohammed, prophet, allah.' The yellow text reads, 'group of monotheism and jihad,' which is what JTJ stands for- jameya(t) al towhid wa al jihad.

'The only god is allah,' is the text across the top of the IS flag, 'mohammed, prophet, allah,' is what it says within the circle of the IS flag.

And there's your redneck Arabic lesson for the day.

So in summary- we've fought IS before, they are a known entity, AQI/JTJ was never defeated, here we go again.  Lets stop doing the same thing we did last time expecting different results.


----------



## Brill (Sep 14, 2014)

Are we back at the "slam dunk" phase again?

U.S. intelligence agencies remain uncertain about danger posed by Islamic State
http://wapo.st/1tSidjX


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 14, 2014)

First line is just the first pillar called the shehada. "No god but God and Muhammad is the messenger of God."
You'll find that in most Islamic related flags. ie Boko Haram, hamas, Saudi Arabia, al shabaab, etc.. and some are identical. Any similarities are just in the overall jihad movement, not necessarily the same as any one them.

Second part is more or less that.. too much wikipedia and Google translate for my taste.  I always have to deal with bad translations in the IC and having a Bachelor's in Arabic language and Middle Eastern culture just makes me ping sometimes. Monotheism is a pretty bad translation and interpretation of tahwid.  It's more of the oneness of God, not that there's just one God. No biggie..

As far as them being the same as before, especially because of their flag, is incredibly naive.  Combination of JRTN, the AQI that you like to bring up, a large group of foreign fighters, and a lot of Syrian fighters makes them much more than JTJ/AQI.  It's a simplification that doesn't acknowledge the training and equipment that they have now from.  Can't forget the 20k-35k people that the CIA claims is in it too..


----------



## Gunz (Sep 15, 2014)

The guy who didn't have a plan is coming to CENTCOM/SOCOM day after tomorrow to "discuss strategy." Ponies, dogs and the media will be in attendance.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 16, 2014)

http://news.yahoo.com/college-students-sign-petition-support-isis-9-11-210206503.html

I hate my generation.



> Multiple college students signed a petition to support the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) last week.
> 
> Media Research Center TV reporter Dan Joseph went to the campus of George Washington University on Thursday, Sept. 11, and collected a dozen signatures from students on a petition to President Barack Obama to not only stop bombing ISIS, but also actively support the terrorist group. ISIS has beheaded two American journalists, James Foley and Steven Sotloff.
> 
> ...


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 16, 2014)

I revise that, I hate people.


----------



## Marine0311 (Sep 16, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> I revise that, I hate people.



I want to burn down everything. :wall:


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 16, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/college-students-sign-petition-support-isis-9-11-210206503.html
> 
> I hate my generation.


 
I had watched that yesterday.  Pretty sad.  At least some people understood what was going on.  But for that many signatures in only an hour...  I concur


----------



## Gunz (Sep 16, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> I hate my generation.


 
You can always find clusters of twisted dipshits on college campuses.  You have to remind yourself that for every fucktard POS loser out there who goes out of his/her way to disgrace our country, our flag and our military, there are three or four kids who are smart, decent and respectful.


----------



## CQB (Sep 16, 2014)

Best SOCMED repy so far: if they want to invite someone with knowledge of Islam why not invite ISIL head Mr. al Bagdadi, he has a Ph.D from Bagdad university.


----------



## Grunt (Sep 16, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> ...These clowns are no different. They want _attention_.


 
Yep...they are like waves tossed to and fro on the sea...forever looking for the "cause of the week" to put their energy into. The only problem is...they usually don't know the truth behind their cause...they simply follow the herd.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 16, 2014)

Kids are taught what to think, not how to think.


----------



## Grunt (Sep 16, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> Kids are taught what to think, not how to think.


 
There is much truth to that statement. I recently told my son that there is no more of a frightful thing to the sheep of the world than a "free thinking, non-dependant, person" who is capable of "thinking on their own."

It's truly a shame. I am doing my best to change that one person at a time. After all, we all have a "circle of influence."


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 16, 2014)

CQB said:


> Best SOCMED repy so far: if they want to invite someone with knowledge of Islam why not invite ISIL head Mr. al Bagdadi, he has a Ph.D from Bagdad university.



Well...  the POTUS did say that ISIL isn't islamic...


----------



## racing_kitty (Sep 16, 2014)

Agoge said:


> There is much truth to that statement. I recently told my son that there is no more of a frightful thing to the sheep of the world than a "free thinking, non-dependant, person" who is capable of "thinking on their own."
> 
> It's truly a shame. I am doing my best to change that one person at a time. After all, we all have a "circle of influence."



When I'm not harping on situational awareness, I'm always on Smallish Child about "does that sound like it makes sense or is the right thing to do?  Why or why not?"  She hates me for it now, but I'm hoping that it pays off in the near future.  We've already had the "Islam is as fucked up as a football bat" discussion, so I'm holding out hope that it's slowly sinking in.


----------



## Grunt (Sep 16, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> When I'm not harping on situational awareness, I'm always on Smallish Child about "does that sound like it makes sense or is the right thing to do?  Why or why not?"  She hates me for it now, but I'm hoping that it pays off in the near future.  We've already had the "Islam is as fucked up as a football bat" discussion, so I'm holding out hope that it's slowly sinking in.


 
My son just turned 20 and is a junior in college now. I have often wondered how much he listend to my "babblings". About three or four months ago, he came into my room to talk to me and his mom. He actually said, "Now I know why you and mom taught me the way you did." He is very "aware." I always taught him to use that term instead of "paranoid." I must boast a bit and say that he is light-years ahead of those he hangs around. I hope that things change in his generation and that the younger people begin to pay attention to what is happening around them. Sooner or later, they are going to wake up and find themselves involved in some sort of a conflict in one way or another.


----------



## CQB (Sep 17, 2014)

They do listen, more than you think.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 17, 2014)

CQB said:


> why not invite ISIL head Mr. al Bagdadi...


 
Why not invite Mr Bagdadi's _head? _

POTUS goes to CENTCOM today to discuss "the President's strategy with his top commanders" (White House Press Release) on "degrading and defeating ISIL." There's the buzz phrase that's destined to haunt this endeavor: _degrade and defeat. _ISIL's one tentacle of the multi-limbed beast. Cut it off and another grows in it's place. Gen McChrystal has sensible ideas based on experience but I think he's enough of a realist to know "defeat" in this kind of struggle is a meaningless word. There's a saying that victory in counter-insurgency warfare is spelled STALEMATE. Hopefully, we can do better than that with the right people driving the bus.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 17, 2014)




----------



## racing_kitty (Sep 17, 2014)

You wouldn't get anything out of him if you do it before he's had a chance to read/watch the news.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 18, 2014)

http://news.yahoo.com/video/u-navy-video-shows-planes-182315676.html

If reincarnation is real, I want to come back as a Naval Aviator.


----------



## Dame (Sep 18, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/video/u-navy-video-shows-planes-182315676.html
> 
> If reincarnation is real, I want to come back as a Naval Aviator.


Kenny Loggins runnin' through my head now. Where is @SexyBeast ?


----------



## CDG (Sep 18, 2014)

Just a reiteration to be careful about how forthright you are with military affiliation, particularly as it relates to social media: 
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/09/17/law-enforcement-bulletin-warned-isis-urging-jihad-attacks-on-us-soil/


----------



## pardus (Sep 18, 2014)

CDG said:


> Just a reiteration to be careful about how forthright you are with military affiliation, particularly as it relates to social media:
> http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/09/17/law-enforcement-bulletin-warned-isis-urging-jihad-attacks-on-us-soil/



One reason why my car is sterile.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 18, 2014)

This board will be quiet of Marine's for awhile as they are all away scraping moto sticker's off their vehicles.  :-"


----------



## racing_kitty (Sep 18, 2014)

The moment I see an increased number of Arabs hanging out by the student VA office, I'm taking pictures and braving a stalking charge as I recon their residences/transportation means.  I'll be damned if I'm taking it lying down.

*Edited to correct a ghastly spelling error.


----------



## pardus (Sep 18, 2014)

This guy has NOTHING to worry about!


----------



## AWP (Sep 18, 2014)

If you get that tattoo, ISIS is the least of your problems.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 18, 2014)

pardus said:


> This guy has NOTHING to worry about!
> View attachment 11652



How do you know when there is a Marine in the room? 


Don't worry, they will tell you.


----------



## CDG (Sep 18, 2014)

@Hillclimb, what's your reasoning behind disagreeing with my post?  Do you not think the threat is legitimate, or do you think it doesn't matter how open people are about being in the military?



pardus said:


> One reason why my car is sterile.


I had a small USAF TACP sticker on my rear window that I scraped off before leaving work today.  No reason to be an easy target.


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 18, 2014)

I'll keep my master wings, and SOWT sticker on (the DV plates kind of give it away anyway).

I think ISIS plays the internet knowing Fox/CNN and talk shows will pick it up.
I hope they pick an easy target who is a 3rd Degree Black Belt and the person next to the Black belt is armed with anger management issues.
These people are (IMO) internet commandoes, who cry like the bitches they are when caught.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Sep 18, 2014)

pardus said:


> One reason why my car is sterile.



So it matches the driver?

Fuck them. Come at me bro doesn't adequately fill my feelings for them trying to slickjack someone stateside. Fucking come at me.  

Kid was saying she was scared of "the dark trees" while we were offroading towards dusk time last night... she doesn't know the trees are scared of me, so she shouldn't be.


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 18, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> *So it matches the driver?*
> 
> Fuck them. Come at me bro doesn't adequately fill my feelings for them trying to slickjack someone stateside. Fucking come at me.
> 
> Kid was saying she was scared of "the dark trees" while we were offroading towards dusk time last night... she doesn't know the trees are scared of me, so she shouldn't be.



Oh snap, a double Z snap to be exact.


----------



## Hillclimb (Sep 18, 2014)

CDG said:


> @Hillclimb, what's your reasoning behind disagreeing with my post?  Do you not think the threat is legitimate, or do you think it doesn't matter how open people are about being in the military?



Sorry brother. I must've clicked it as I was scrolling through on my phone.

Negative rating nd. Ha


----------



## Brill (Sep 18, 2014)

Is it me or does Obama sound like Bush when he told us about the coalition of the willing in Mar 2003?


----------



## Marauder06 (Sep 18, 2014)

SOWT said:


> I'll keep my master wings, and SOWT sticker on (the DV plates kind of give it away anyway).
> 
> I think ISIS plays the internet knowing Fox/CNN and talk shows will pick it up.
> I hope they pick an easy target who is a 3rd Degree Black Belt and the person next to the Black belt is armed with anger management issues.
> These people are (IMO) internet commandoes, who cry like the bitches they are when caught.





Ranger Psych said:


> So it matches the driver?
> 
> Fuck them. Come at me bro doesn't adequately fill my feelings for them trying to slickjack someone stateside. Fucking come at me.
> 
> Kid was saying she was scared of "the dark trees" while we were offroading towards dusk time last night... she doesn't know the trees are scared of me, so she shouldn't be.



I agree.  I'm not changing anything I think, say, or do in my own country, under our own laws, just because the latest group of assholes out there don't like it.  When we start doing that, they win.

This is what the back of my car looks like right now.  Not only am I not taking any of the current stickers off, I'm considering adding another in reaction to this latest threat from ISIS.  Probably this one.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Sep 18, 2014)

Expect your winch cable to break next time you really need it, for referring to said mechanical conveyance as a car...


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 18, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> I agree.  I'm not changing anything I think, say, or do in my own country, under our own laws, just because the latest group of assholes out there don't like it.  When we start doing that, they win.
> 
> This is what the back of my car looks like right now.  Not only am I not taking any of the current stickers off, I'm considering adding another in reaction to this latest threat from ISIS.  Probably this one.
> 
> View attachment 11653


I don't know dude, I'd probably take the Yale shit off so not to piss some goat herder off.


----------



## RustyShackleford (Sep 18, 2014)

Yeah, I've got a set of Glocks, an M4 and an 870 that will dictate the circumstances should some Islamic fuck see that tab and scroll or <2> as an indicator I some sort of target.  (Weapon systems may vary depending on the vehicle that day).


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 18, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> I agree.  I'm not changing anything I think, say, or do in my own country, under our own laws, just because the latest group of assholes out there don't like it.  When we start doing that, they win.
> 
> This is what the back of my car looks like right now.  Not only am I not taking any of the current stickers off, I'm considering adding another in reaction to this latest threat from ISIS.  Probably this one.
> 
> View attachment 11653




Wave


----------



## pardus (Sep 18, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> So it matches the driver?
> 
> Fuck them. Come at me bro doesn't adequately fill my feelings for them trying to slickjack someone stateside. Fucking come at me.
> 
> Kid was saying she was scared of "the dark trees" while we were offroading towards dusk time last night... she doesn't know the trees are scared of me, so she shouldn't be.



A, cunt.

B, see below...



RustyShackleford said:


> Yeah, I've got a set of Glocks, an M4 and an 870 that will dictate the circumstances should some Islamic fuck see that tab and scroll or <2> as an indicator I some sort of target.  (Weapon systems may vary depending on the vehicle that day).



The other reason is I don't want to alert some asshole cop that I'm a vet and have him pull me over to search for weapons (yes I know I should move out of this state but here is where I'm at (for now at least)), and I don't have and cannot have* a CCW here.

*No such thing, either a house/range pistol license, or a pistol for work i.e. home and work. Outside of those locations, you may only carry to and from and also to a gunstore.

I would LOVE some snackbar to attack me when I am close to a weapon, dream come true, but I'm realistic and I've also found myself alone surrounded, without backup and facing death before, it's not fun, and the odds are hugely against you getting out. I don't want to encourage that again. I guess I'm maturing somewhat, I want to even the field as much as possible. At least go down fighting to a bullet rather than having my head sawn off on youtube (Hi Mom!).


ETA, I should also say that I do like to see vet stickers etc... on a car, when I'm on my Harley especially, I like to give a nod to people who have them. 
Full disclosure, I do have a vet plate on my Harley. But fuck you, I'm on my Harley and ready to die anyway 

In NYS (IIRC) for $10 you can get the address from the DMV for any plate number.


----------



## Brill (Sep 18, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> I agree.  I'm not changing anything I think, say, or do in my own country, under our own laws, just because the latest group of assholes out there don't like it.  When we start doing that, they win.
> 
> This is what the back of my car looks like right now.



What did those tires set you back?


----------



## medicchick (Sep 18, 2014)

lindy said:


> What did those tires set you back?


In Alaska they cost $1200 for a set of four 35's...lol  We ran them for a few years on the Silverado, nice for on and the bit of off roading we did (we used the Blazer for most wheeling).  We were thinking of getting them again when we replace the Jeep tires.


----------



## Marauder06 (Sep 18, 2014)

lindy said:


> What did those tires set you back?



They were on the Jeep when I bought it.  I dread the day I have to replace them...


----------



## Kraut783 (Sep 18, 2014)

"The other reason is I don't want to alert some asshole cop that I'm a vet and have him pull me over to search for weapons (yes I know I should move out of this state but here is where I'm at (for now at least)), and I don't have and cannot have* a CCW here."



Come to TEXAS Pardus.......we LEO's love vets and CCW!


----------



## Marine0311 (Sep 18, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> "The other reason is I don't want to alert some asshole cop that I'm a vet and have him pull me over to search for weapons (yes I know I should move out of this state but here is where I'm at (for now at least)), and I don't have and cannot have* a CCW here."
> 
> 
> 
> Come to TEXAS Pardus.......we LEO's love vets and CCW!



I may have to given where I live and the shitty laws and taxes around here.


----------



## pardus (Sep 18, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> "The other reason is I don't want to alert some asshole cop that I'm a vet and have him pull me over to search for weapons (yes I know I should move out of this state but here is where I'm at (for now at least)), and I don't have and cannot have* a CCW here."
> 
> 
> 
> Come to TEXAS Pardus.......we LEO's love vets and CCW!



My friend, Texas is my dream state. The only thing holding me back is finding a job there.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 18, 2014)

medicchick said:


> In Alaska they cost $1200 for a set of four 35's...lol  We ran them for a few years on the Silverado, nice for on and the bit of off roading we did (we used the Blazer for most wheeling).  We were thinking of getting them again when we replace the Jeep tires.



 My 35's cost about 280 each. Not much cheaper than what you paid.


----------



## Dame (Sep 19, 2014)

The House passed a budget continuance yesterday that includes aid to Syrian rebels. It's expected to pass the Senate and be signed by POTUS.
So, in a cross threads summary, it:
1. Will keep the government from shutting down and sending everyone into furlough again (provided it passes by September 30).
2. Gives aid to Syrian rebels (which the administration has pushed for it since at least last year to oust Assad).
3. Appears to be earmarked for fighting ISIS, but in reality Gen Dempsey says it will take up to a year to train these rebels.



> The vote in the House on Wednesday giving Obama authority to train rebels was 273-156.
> 
> More Democrats, 85, voted to defy the president than Republicans, who cast 71 votes against the policy advanced by a commander in chief they distrust.


http://www.bostonglobe.com/news/pol...eads-senate/BlrFfYJwhaEqzTucqyKZTO/story.html


----------



## Brill (Sep 19, 2014)

pardus said:


> My friend, Texas is my dream state. The only thing holding me back is finding a job there.



Oregon has more sheep though.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 19, 2014)

pardus said:


> My friend, Texas is my dream state. The only thing holding me back is finding a job there.


 
God Bless Texas. We may all end up there. Get rid of the Leftist weenies in Austin and it'd make a great country.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 19, 2014)

Obama's "strategy" is apparently a hard pill to swallow for Dempsey et al

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...db422e-3f5c-11e4-b03f-de718edeb92f_story.html


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 22, 2014)

http://web-beta.archive.org/web/20120630071439/http://www.stickdeath.com/martyr.html

Who remembers this?


----------



## Marine0311 (Sep 22, 2014)

I saw the 60 minutes piece last night.  It made me rage and my heart go out to those who are suffering.


----------



## Dame (Sep 22, 2014)

This is what gets my blood boiling. They left with the intent to fight for terrorists and we let them back in?
http://news.yahoo.com/official--some-americans-who-fought-in-syria-have-returned-160953525.html


----------



## racing_kitty (Sep 22, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://web-beta.archive.org/web/20120630071439/http://www.stickdeath.com/martyr.html
> 
> Who remembers this?



I miss Stick Death!!!  That site was awesome.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 22, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> I miss Stick Death!!!  That site was awesome.


http://stickdeathreborn.tk/


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 22, 2014)

http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/u...raqi-soldiers-chlorine-gas-attack-saqlawiyah/

According to this, IS has used a chlorine gas attack in Iraq.


----------



## racing_kitty (Sep 22, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://stickdeathreborn.tk/



And I can only like this once?  Life is so cruel.


----------



## Dame (Sep 22, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://www.iraqinews.com/iraq-war/u...raqi-soldiers-chlorine-gas-attack-saqlawiyah/
> According to this, IS has used a chlorine gas attack in Iraq.


Holy shit. These fuckers are making their way south.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 22, 2014)

Dame said:


> Holy shit. These fuckers are making their way south.



No further along than what they have been.


----------



## CQB (Sep 22, 2014)

The economics of Daesh:

Waiting for his job interview, the young Syrian was impressed by the array of high-end camera equipment, video-editing pods and overall organisation in the offices of his prospective employer. The salary, five times that of a typical Syrian civil servant, was not bad either.

“They offered me $1,500 a month, plus a car, a house and all the cameras I needed,” says the one-time tailor in his late 20s. “I remembered looking around the office. It was amazing the equipment they had in there. I remember thinking, these people can’t just be getting their money on their own. There has to be a state behind this.”
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/2/34e874ac-3dad-11e4-b782-00144feabdc0.html


----------



## Kraut783 (Sep 22, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> And I can only like this once?  Life is so cruel.



OMG.....stick death is back....HELL YA!

(luv K9 stickdeath   )


----------



## Kraut783 (Sep 22, 2014)

Marine0311 said:


> I saw the 60 minutes piece last night.  It made me rage and my heart go out to those who are suffering.



One thing they never brought up.....what would have kept ISIS from forming.....Keep Syria (Assad) in power.  The more dictators that fall, the more problems we have in the region....IMHO


----------



## Marine0311 (Sep 22, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> One thing they never brought up.....what would have kept ISIS from forming.....Keep Syria (Assad) in power.  The more dictators that fall, the more problems we have in the region....IMHO



You really think so? I am not so sure.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 22, 2014)

CQB said:


> The economics of Daesh:
> 
> Waiting for his job interview, the young Syrian was impressed by the array of high-end camera equipment, video-editing pods and overall organisation in the offices of his prospective employer. The salary, five times that of a typical Syrian civil servant, was not bad either.
> 
> ...



They have a massive amounts of money from robbing banks, to selling crude oil. One robbery alone got them 500 mil (USD).


----------



## Gunz (Sep 23, 2014)

Steps ISIL can take to lower it's carbon footprint.

http://www.clickhole.com/article/5-...ult&utm_medium=ShareTools&utm_source=facebook


----------



## CQB (Sep 23, 2014)

All kaffir are now to pay jizya on carbon emissions.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 23, 2014)

http://www.nationaljournal.com/defe...of-planning-attacks-against-the-west-20140923

Scroll halfway down for a video footage of Tomahawks being launched. This gives me a major boner.


----------



## Red-Dot (Sep 23, 2014)

ISIS, meet my little friend.


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 23, 2014)

Red-Dot said:


> View attachment 11668 ISIS, meet my little friend.


What is that?  I am guessing a test shot, but what bomb.


----------



## racing_kitty (Sep 23, 2014)

I'm going to go with GBU-57.  I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what it is.

ETA: If not that, then some other bunker buster.  However, I'm sticking with the larger -57 if the fighter jet can be used as a reliable scale item.


----------



## Red-Dot (Sep 23, 2014)

MOP, Massive Ordnance Penetrator. GBU-57, it's 30,000 lbs of love.


----------



## RackMaster (Sep 23, 2014)

That's a boom boom and not a pew pew.


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 23, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> I'm going to go with GBU-57.  I could be wrong, but I'm pretty sure that's what it is.
> 
> ETA: If not that, then some other bunker buster.  However, I'm sticking with the larger -57 if the fighter jet can be used as a reliable scale item.


Point for the EOD cutie 
That's one hell of a bomb.


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 23, 2014)

As an aside.
F-22's bombed/escorted the other night.  
Technically the first combat mission, but they have pulled alert in AK, so they have done what they were designed to do for a number of years.
Funny how Gates/Obama killed it off as an unnecessary platform, then rush it to the AO when things with Iran heated up.
At least we are getting good training/data out of the deployment.


----------



## racing_kitty (Sep 23, 2014)

Of course they killed the F22.  How else were they supposed to justify the F35?

Hijack over.


----------



## Marine0311 (Sep 23, 2014)

I say drop more bombs!


----------



## Gunz (Sep 24, 2014)

Red-Dot said:


> MOP, Massive Ordnance Penetrator. GBU-57, it's 30,000 lbs of love.


 
Dear Santa, please give us a nice big fat opportunity to use it.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 24, 2014)

http://www.businessweek.com/article...at-debut-in-syria-in-strikes-on-islamic-state



> The Pentagon’s newest fighter jet saw combat for the first time on Monday during the U.S.-led attacks against Islamic militants inside Syria. The F-22 Raptor made its fighting debut nearly nine years after the Air Force took delivery of the jet.
> 
> The $67 billion F-22 program is one of the most expensive in Pentagon history, and the military is blunt about its perceived advantage: “The F-22 cannot be matched by any known or projected fighter aircraft,” according to the Air Force.
> 
> ...


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 24, 2014)

http://www.examiner.com/article/indiana-blacksnakes-and-their-a-10s-taking-the-fight-to-middle-east

My home state making me proud. BRRRRRRRRT!


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 24, 2014)

They just beheaded the french guy who was captured last week.

Fuckers.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-die-country-did-not-stop-bombing-Iraq.html


----------



## Centermass (Sep 24, 2014)

The Prez at the UN today:



> ISIL blah blah blah......The coalition blah blah blah.......Israel, Gaza have to get along blah blah blah (Each Blah represents 10 minutes)
> 
> The world has problems. Even here in the US, we have problems as well. Just recently in Ferguson MO........


----------



## Red-Dot (Sep 24, 2014)

Centermass said:


> The Prez at the UN today:



Prez....use that term VERY loosely.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 25, 2014)

Centermass said:


> The Prez at the UN today:


 

regulation latte salute ready begin


----------



## Blizzard (Sep 25, 2014)

Female IAE pilot reportedly led a mission in her nation's strikes on ISIS.  Bravo Zulu to her (a little poetic justice to go with plain ole' justice).

http://abcnews.go.com/International/meet-female-pilot-led-airstrike-isis/story?id=25751373


----------



## LimaOscarSierraTango (Sep 25, 2014)

That's how our propaganda machine needs to work...


----------



## AWP (Sep 25, 2014)

LimaOscarSierraTango said:


> That's how our propaganda machine needs to work...


 
Totally agree and something I've lamented for years. Our I/O efforts in the GWOT, to be frank, suck. I remember at KAF in 2008 or so, there was a female Pred sensor operator. Around 20, the young airman had already shwacked a number of TB when AFN ran a story on her...and that was it. Of all the stories AFN runs ad nauseum, that one aired once and I never saw it again. Stripes may have had a write-up, but that too wnet away. The I/O value of airmen like her and we squander it...

Contrast this somewhat with SGT Hester and her Silver Star. That story is played over and over, and I won't argue with the award, BUT how many know her boss, a MSG, earned a DSC for the same fight?

I think our I/O machine is broken.


----------



## Kraut783 (Sep 25, 2014)

heh...it's bad when Al-Qeada...ISIS...JN...etc... have a better propaganda program than the U.S.


----------



## Dame (Sep 25, 2014)

They learned it from Hizbollah.


----------



## pardus (Sep 25, 2014)

Ooh-Rah1069 said:


> They just beheaded the french guy who was captured last week.
> 
> Fuckers.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ng-die-country-did-not-stop-bombing-Iraq.html



That sucks for him, but hiking in the region he was in, in Algeria is about as dumb as hiking in ISIS controlled areas in Iraq and Syria.


----------



## Red-Dot (Sep 26, 2014)

And all of this time, I thought ISIS was a 1970's cartoon....


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 26, 2014)




----------



## Gunz (Sep 26, 2014)

These motherfuckers sure can talk. Better talk while you can cause you're all gonna burn.


----------



## Kraut783 (Sep 26, 2014)

This is the kind of shit I worry about here CONUS....

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-woman-beheaded-at-oklahoma-workplace/


----------



## Grunt (Sep 26, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> This is the kind of shit I worry about here CONUS....
> 
> http://www.cbsnews.com/news/police-woman-beheaded-at-oklahoma-workplace/



Yep...and there isn't much you can do to stop the "lone wolf" nut from acting out like that other than be prepared to the best of your ability to deal with them should you become an intended or unintended target of theirs.


----------



## racing_kitty (Sep 26, 2014)

I'm a bit surprised to see CBS and Reuters mention an Islam link. Yahoo only added that piece of information to their story two hours after I read it (and well after other news agencies), and I'm not immediately inclined to see if MSNBC has even noticed yet.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 26, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> This is the kind of shit I worry about here CONUS....


 
Yep...and all you need is a knife.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 26, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> I'm a bit surprised to see CBS and Reuters mention an Islam link. Yahoo only added that piece of information to their story two hours after I read it (and well after other news agencies), and I'm not immediately inclined to see if MSNBC has even noticed yet.


 
The MSM has done it's best over the years to downplay any  "Islamic angle."  ISIL is making it very difficult for them to do that, what with all these pesky beheadings.


----------



## pardus (Sep 26, 2014)

I wish I could simply dismiss these claims as lunatic ramblings, but with the state of the security of the southern border and the thousands, tens of thousands  of nutjobs already in this country I'm actually expecting something to happen, more than I have for some time. Paranoia maybe, but I want to be prepared.


----------



## RackMaster (Sep 26, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


>



A "Canadian" fuckstick.  Thankfully he ripped up his passport and is well known by those in the know.


----------



## Dame (Sep 26, 2014)

I just hope they keep bringing knives to gunfights.
http://www.buzzfeed.com/markdistefano/aussie-teen-terror-plot?utm_term=3zy8s4x#au40l4


----------



## CQB (Sep 27, 2014)

Well look, it's hardly the Nuremberg rally. Let's start a thread called idiotic shit Muslims say. One thing fascists cannot stand is being laughed at.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 27, 2014)

Reading this thread as I am sitting in classroom getting ready to renew my PTC for another 5 years.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 27, 2014)

pardus said:


> I wish I could simply dismiss these claims as lunatic ramblings, but with the state of the security of the southern border and the thousands, tens of thousands  of nutjobs already in this country I'm actually expecting something to happen, more than I have for some time. Paranoia maybe, but I want to be prepared.


 
I agree. In my opinion, eventually, something big is inevitable. Suitcase nuke, bio attack, conventional explosives, whatever. There are twisted people on this planet in position to facilitate those kinds of attacks. And plenty of idiots willing to volunteer to carry them out, even at the expense of their lives. It's only a matter of time before facilitators, volunteers and the necessary ingredients come together to make it happen.

It amazes me how quickly much of the American public returned to complacency after 9/11.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Sep 27, 2014)

You implicate that the American public has deviated from complacency since 9/11.


----------



## Kraut783 (Sep 27, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> You implicate that the American public has deviated from complacency since 9/11.



How true...the old saying of the military is at war and America is at the mall...still holds true.



I don't think the American public can last in a marathon.....much less the Government who only sees things 4 years (or less) at a time.


----------



## racing_kitty (Sep 27, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> I don't think the American public can last in a marathon.....much less the Government who only sees things 4 years (or less) at a time.



I'm not entirely confident in our ability to hold it together in a sprint, honestly.


----------



## Grunt (Sep 27, 2014)

Many have a "microwave" mentality which wants things accomplished quickly -- in the here and now. They don't want anything that they have to wait for or can't see instant results in. 

Short-term mentalities geared towards quick results. These aren't traits that tend to do us any good in today's conflicts.

As I have said before, many people who don't have personal equity in the ME, don't put much thought into what is happening there and could eventually spread into our area.

Sad really!


----------



## Kraut783 (Sep 27, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> I'm not entirely confident in our ability to hold it together in a sprint, honestly.



Agreed......I was just commenting on the long term mentality when dealing with terrorism / extremist.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 28, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> You implicate that the American public has deviated from complacency since 9/11.


 
Okay, I concede. But they were scared of anthrax for a few months.


----------



## Brill (Sep 28, 2014)

Unbelievable.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2014/09/28/us-misjudged-iraqi-army-isis-threat-obama-says/


----------



## Kraut783 (Sep 28, 2014)

I think more of a....they chose not to take the USIC information on the issue. Ignore it and it goes away........right?  :wall:


----------



## Brill (Sep 28, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> I think more of a....they chose not to take the USIC information on the issue. Ignore it and it goes away........right?  :wall:



By "it", I am hoping and praying you are talking about the Democrat majority in the Senate!!!


----------



## Kraut783 (Sep 28, 2014)

Meant, if they (govt) ignore the issue (ISIS / Syria / JN / Islamic State / Shia Iraqi govt taking revenge on Sunnis....etc) they hope the problem just goes away, until it's too late of course and it's a real issue.

(Democrats majority in the Senate....I do hope that goes away too!)


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 29, 2014)

https://itrace.conflictarm.com/Home/Login

Care to see arms being trafficked into Syria?


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 29, 2014)

I'm pretty sick of seeing the POTUS blame us in the Intelligence Community for underestimating ISIL... WTF?  

Bureaucratic and political bullshit, not a failure in intel.  I'm thinking this guy wasn't paying attention while at the clubhouse working on his handicap.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 29, 2014)

Speaking of which...
*
Obama has had accurate intelligence about ISIS since BEFORE the 2012 election, says administration insider*

*A national security staffer in the Obama administration said the president has been seeing 'highly accurate predictions' about the rise of the ISIS terror army since 'before the 2012 election'*
*Obama insisted in his campaign speeches that year that America was safe and al-Qaeda was 'on the run'*
*The president said during Sunday's '60 Minutes' program that his Director of National Intelligence had conceded he underestimated ISIS*
*But the administration aide insisted that Obama's advisers gave him actionable information that sat and gathered dust for more than a year*
*'He knew what was at stake,' the aide said of the president, and 'he knew where all the moving pieces were'*
*Obama takes daily intelligence briefings in writing, he explained, because no one will be able to testify about warning the president in person about threats that the White House doesn't act on*
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...012-election-says-administration-insider.html


----------



## Brill (Sep 29, 2014)

Florida173 said:


> I'm pretty sick of seeing the POTUS blame us in the Intelligence Community for underestimating ISIL... WTF?
> 
> Bureaucratic and political bullshit, not a failure in intel.  I'm thinking this guy wasn't paying attention while at the clubhouse working on his handicap.



I think the distinguished gentleman from South Carolina said it best in September 2009 during the State of The Union address.


----------



## AWP (Sep 29, 2014)

Let's say for a second the President is right, let's say the IC completely blew this ISIL thing.

Why aren't we nuking it from orbit? The IC? CIA, NSA, DIA, UPS....whoever the hell is involved. If our intelligence community is so freaking broken then why keep them around? Everybody and their brother, right or wrong, blames their situation on the intelligence community's inability to do its job, but we keep those same people and organizations around? With no major changes? Out of all of the spying drama in the last few years and they supposedly miss the entire ISIL/ Iraq/ Syria saga, but no one's burning those places to the ground?

Either someone's full of shit or we are complete morons.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 29, 2014)

No such thing as military intelligence.





























:blkeye:


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 29, 2014)

On a serious note, I would be willing to bet that like every other major decision the POTUS has had to make he was just indecisive. I always had aspersions to be President, and even though I disagree 95% of the time with President Obama, I give him credit for wanting to do it for one term, let alone two, because as I get older and wiser that job looks less appealing by the day.


----------



## Brill (Sep 29, 2014)

Directors of CIA and DIA both testified in the House in 2013 that ISIL was no shit and ISF wasn't capable to stop them.

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2014/sep/29/obama-knew-months-intel-concerns-islamic-state/

“For over a year, U.S. intelligence agencies specifically warned that ISIL was taking advantage of the situation in Syria to recruit members and provoke violence that could spill into Iraq and the rest of the region,” Mr. Rogers said. “In fact, in 2013, the House Intelligence Committee formally pressed the administration for action to address the terrorist threat present in Syria. Additionally, national security experts – both inside and outside the government – repeatedly warned, a year before ISIL’s drive into Mosul, that the Iraq Security Forces faced severe pressure; the House Intelligence Committee held a hearing on that very issue in early 2014. 

“And we all knew that former Iraqi Prime Minster Maliki had mismanaged his military and gutted the ISF of its top commanders.  Indeed, over a year ago, our Arab League partners sought U.S. support and leadership for a coordinated effort to address the extremist threat in eastern Syria. This was not an Intelligence Community failure, but a failure by policy makers to confront the threat.”

Other intelligence officials pointed to testimony in February by Air Force Lt. Gen. Michael T. Flynn, the then-Defense Intelligence Agency director, who specifically warned that the Islamic State was poised to “take territory in Iraq and Syria to exhibit its strength in 2014.”

A week earlier before the House Select Committee on Intelligence, CIA Director John O. Brennan told lawmakers that he and others in the intelligence community were concerned not only that al Qaeda was using Syria to recruit foreign fighters to “carry out attacks inside Syria, but also to use Syria as a launching pad.”

“There are camps inside of both Iraq and Syria that are used by al Qaeda to develop capabilities that are applicable both in the theater, as well as beyond,” Mr. Brennan said at the time.


----------



## Grunt (Sep 29, 2014)

The IC is the administration's full-time "fall guy."

When they do something good, the administration takes the credit that should be due the IC community.

When something goes wrong, the administration blames them.

Some administrations do so more than others.


----------



## Salt USMC (Sep 29, 2014)

I hate to say it but I think that @lindy  pretty much called this back in August of 2013



pardus said:


> I cant immediately think of any scenario that would directly affect us with Syria.





lindy said:


> *Exact same scenario that played out in Afghanistan in the late 70's & 80's is occurring NOW in Syria except the fighters are already anti-West, have support network, and are very experienced*.



The administration definitely dropped the ball on this one.  If the IC was making these assessments as far back as Spring 2013, then that's quite a bit of advance warning.  Still, I have to wonder how the political atmosphere at the time influenced their decision-making.  Unfortunately I don't have any direct quotes to support this, but I remember Congress (and America in general) leaning further towards the "Let's not do anything about Syria" camp until around August (when the big gas attack happened).  Even then it seemed like there was a sharp divide between the intervention and non-intervention camps.  We even had a 32-page thread on it.

Nobody in the public sphere was talking about IS back in 2013 so it would've been impossible to speculate about that specific threat (beyond something like "What if this spills over into Iraq/becomes a new Mujahidin" as @lindy alluded to), but with the charged political climate during the summer and fall of 2013, I'm not sure I would've made a big push to take action either.  I'll try to dig up some threads around when the news started reporting on IS and see what people were saying back then.  It should make for an interesting comparison.

EDIT: Actually, it seems like this is the most consistently posted-in thread on the topic from earlier this year.


----------



## CDG (Sep 30, 2014)

Florida173 said:


> I'm pretty sick of seeing the POTUS blame us in the Intelligence Community for underestimating ISIL... WTF?
> 
> Bureaucratic and political bullshit, not a failure in intel.  I'm thinking this guy wasn't paying attention while at the clubhouse working on his handicap.


 
Well what do you expect from a POTUS that attends 42% of the PDBs?

http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Peace/...er-Half-His-Second-Term-Daily-Intel-Briefings


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 30, 2014)

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articl...lotters-in-syria-went-dark-u-s-spies-say.html

Hmm.....



> U.S. intelligence agencies learned this summer of a plot from al Qaeda veterans in Syria to attack European and American airplanes. Then the Khorasan Group went dark.
> Over the summer, as ISIS fighters were winning swaths of territory in Iraq, U.S. intelligence agencies were also focused on the group’s ostensible jihadist rivals in neighboring Syria.
> 
> American analysts had pieced together detailed information on a pending attack from an outfit that informally called itself “the Khorasan Group” to use hard-to-detect explosives on American and European airliners.
> ...


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 30, 2014)

http://foxtrotalpha.jalopnik.com/the-kurdish-homemade-tanks-may-look-funny-but-theyre-no-1640442470



> There's been a lot of attention on the internet recently to the funny-looking home-made tanks Kurdish forces have been building to help with their fight against ISIS, or ISIL, or whatever we call that pack of assholes. Most of that attention has been, frankly, ridicule. I'm not so sure that ridicule is warranted here.
> 
> It's not like I can't understand the urge to ridicule here — the tanks are pretty funny-looking. Some are almost like cute cartoon versions of tanks, with chubby proportions and many obviously hand-made looking details. But I don't think we can judge these based on what we know about modern tanks or Armored Personnel Carriers, or assume that the people who've been building these things even think of them as substitutes for actual tanks.
> 
> ...


----------



## Gunz (Sep 30, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> I think more of a....they chose not to take the USIC information on the issue. Ignore it and it goes away........right?  :wall:


 
Yeah, POTUS had been reluctant all along to get involved in the Syrian affair. Neither he nor his advisors would welcome any intel that might suggest a threat too serious to ignore. The policy, even during the Syrian chemical weapons controversy, was lead from behind...and at most, if it couldn't be quelled diplomatically, launch a few Tomahawks.


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 30, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> Yeah, POTUS had been reluctant all along to get involved in the Syrian affair. Neither he nor his advisors would welcome any intel that might suggest a threat too serious to ignore. The policy, even during the Syrian chemical weapons controversy, was lead from behind...and at most, if it couldn't be quelled diplomatically, l*aunch a few Tomahawks*.



The bold face part; it worked for Clinton.


----------



## Brill (Oct 1, 2014)

MEU to Kuwait?  Love the Senator's intro!

http://video.foxnews.com/v/38153749...mideast-as-quick-response-team/#sp=show-clips


----------



## Salt USMC (Oct 1, 2014)

I feel bad for those Marines.  Kuwait sucks!


----------



## BloodStripe (Oct 1, 2014)

lindy said:


> MEU to Kuwait?  Love the Senator's intro!
> 
> http://video.foxnews.com/v/38153749...mideast-as-quick-response-team/#sp=show-clips



It's not really a MEU, it's a MAGTF. MAGTF stands for Marine Air Ground Task Force, or in this case Special Purpose MAGTF. It combines all the elements of a MEU, but they won't be ship based. It seems the Corps has learned the failure of the 4th MEB and corrected it by developing a true MAGTF for high threat terror threats and other purposes a  forward deployed Marine force would be needed.


----------



## CQB (Oct 1, 2014)

It looks like there's some trouble finding recruits. 

http://www.theonion.com/articles/isis-having-difficulty-finding-american-recruits-p,37068/


----------



## LimaOscarSierraTango (Oct 2, 2014)

Deathy McDeath said:


> I feel bad for those Marines.  Kuwait sucks!



Have you been through Arifjan?  Those guys/gals have it made! Granted, I wouldn't want to be on the other bases, but I believe all of the others are closed or will be closing soon.


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 2, 2014)

LimaOscarSierraTango said:


> Have you been through Arifjan?  Those guys/gals have it made! Granted, I wouldn't want to be on the other bases, but I believe all of the others are closed or will be closing soon.


Arifjan, AKA Garrison Fwd.
No Combat Pay for Kuwait though, sucks to be them.


----------



## LimaOscarSierraTango (Oct 2, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Arifjan, AKA Garrison Fwd.
> No Combat Pay for Kuwait though, sucks to be them.



Bikinis at the pool, soccer field, Chili's...  they have it made there.  They shouldn't get combat pay, and _should _be saluting officers.  It's an oasis in the desert.  I talked to a few people stationed there and they loved it!  Especially the privates fresh out of AIT that got deployment points for an easy year.


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 2, 2014)

LimaOscarSierraTango said:


> Bikinis at the pool, soccer field, Chili's...  they have it made there.  They shouldn't get combat pay, and _should _be saluting officers.  It's an oasis in the desert.  I talked to a few people stationed there and they loved it!  Especially the privates fresh out of AIT that got deployment points for an easy year.


Yet you guys bitch about the Air Force.


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 2, 2014)

It's expected the Canadian Prime Minister will table a proposal for increased support against the daesh bitches.  The focus is on the CF-18's but rumor is a full air contingent; fighter, air refueler, CP-140 and all the support that goes with them.  

There's authorization for 69 "advisors" from CANSOF but only 26 are in country now.  I don't foresee any conventional troops but perhaps more SOF guys.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/harper-readying-groundwork-for-canada-s-turn-in-iraq-1.2784678


----------



## Kheenbish (Oct 2, 2014)

LimaOscarSierraTango said:


> Have you been through Arifjan?  Those guys/gals have it made! Granted, I wouldn't want to be on the other bases, but I believe all of the others are closed or will be closing soon.


I just came from Ali Al Salem. One Arifjan is better and two they are actually reopening up bases.


----------



## AWP (Oct 2, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Yet you guys bitch about the Air Force.


 
I'll bitch about anyone and anything at anytime. I'm so equal opportunity no one likes me.



Kheenbish said:


> I just came from Ali Al Salem. One Arifjan is better and two they are actually reopening up bases.


 
Good thing we won in Iraq and we're wrapping up Afghanistan because there's no way we should have to go back to either...


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 2, 2014)

Kheenbish said:


> I just came from Ali Al Salem. One Arifjan is better and two they are actually reopening up bases.


Ali had a minimal war mentality, Arifjan was a way for ARCENT to pretend they were useful.
Buehring (Navy Med Evac) was my hide away from the staff location.


----------



## LimaOscarSierraTango (Oct 2, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Yet you guys bitch about the Air Force.



One little gem in the desert doesn't make up for an entire branch. 



Kheenbish said:


> I just came from Ali Al Salem. One Arifjan is better and two they are actually reopening up bases.



That makes sense, especially since we will be "advising" in the region for the next decade.


----------



## Brill (Oct 2, 2014)

Kheenbish said:


> I just came from Ali Al Salem. One Arifjan is better and two they are actually reopening up bases.



I thought our concession to AQ (via the Kingdom of Saud) was to leave the AP?


----------



## AWP (Oct 2, 2014)

Then there's this nugget.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ouse-over-failure-to-leave-us-forces-in-iraq/



> Former Defense Secretary Leon Panetta is lashing out at President Obama’s inner circle for failing to secure a 2011 deal to leave U.S. troops in Iraq, effectively accusing the White House of sabotaging the talks – in turn, opening the door for the region to become a haven for the Islamic State.
> Panetta, who served as CIA director and then Defense secretary during those negotiations, aired his complaints in his forthcoming memoir, “Worthy Fights.” Excerpts on the Baghdad talks were published by Time.
> In them, Panetta explained that Iraqi leaders privately wanted some U.S. forces to stay behind after the formal 2011 withdrawal, though they would not say so publicly. The former secretary, though, said the U.S. had “leverage” to strike a deal, and the Defense and State departments tried to do exactly that.
> “But,” he wrote, “the President’s team at the White House pushed back, and the differences occasionally became heated. … and those on our side viewed the White House as so eager to rid itself of Iraq that it was willing to withdraw rather than lock in arrangements that would preserve our influence and interests.”


 
Meanwhile in Afghanistan, I've secured a classified copy of the new OEF-A OPORD:
Paragraph 1: GTFO
Paragraph 2: GTFO
Paragraph 3: GTFO
Paragraph 4: GTFO
Paragraph 5: GTFO
Annexes A-Whatever: GTFO


----------



## Brill (Oct 2, 2014)




----------



## LogCinco (Oct 2, 2014)




----------



## Salt USMC (Oct 3, 2014)

My current favorite ISIS image


----------



## CQB (Oct 3, 2014)

http://m.liveleak.com/view?i=712_1412213063


----------



## Brill (Oct 3, 2014)

My inbox at work was FULL of "remove any USG or mil affiliated "stuff" from vehicles" emails.  My reply "I think that's the wrong message.  We should encourage ISIL-types to come to our houses so they self identify and we can kill them."

Holy shit...that did NOT go over well.


----------



## Poccington (Oct 3, 2014)

Alan Henning has become the latest prisoner to be beheaded by these utter fucking vermin. 

I hope those cunts get fucking flattened.


----------



## Marine0311 (Oct 3, 2014)

Poccington said:


> Alan Henning has become the latest prisoner to be beheaded by these utter fucking vermin.
> 
> I hope those cunts get fucking flattened.



Do you have any sources bro?


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 3, 2014)

It was just on NBC news.

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/is...-video-showing-beheading-alan-henning-n208816

RIP


----------



## BloodStripe (Oct 3, 2014)

http://news.yahoo.com/parents-of-am...ask-for-prayers-for-son-s-life-235127573.html

Iraq War veteran held by ISIS.


----------



## Marine0311 (Oct 3, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://news.yahoo.com/parents-of-am...ask-for-prayers-for-son-s-life-235127573.html
> 
> Iraq War veteran held by ISIS.



A Ranger?


----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 3, 2014)

Marine0311 said:


> A Ranger?



Reportedly.

http://www.havokjournal.com/world/isis-reportedly-holds-former-us-army-ranger


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 4, 2014)

Here's what Canada is offering, it still needs a vote in Parliament on Monday.


> *ISIS fight: 6-month maximum attached to Canada's air combat offer*
> Canada is offering a six-month air combat mission, but no ground troops, to fight Islamic jihadists in the Mideast, according to a motion tabled in the House of Commons today.
> 
> Prime Minister Stephen Harper told the House of Commons on Friday that Canada's contribution will include one CC-150 Polaris air-to-air refuelling aircraft, two CP-140 Aurora surveillance aircraft and the necessary air crews and support personnel. The Prime Minister's Office said Canada is offering up to six CF-18 fighter jets to the mission, as well as one dedicated airlift plane to enhance the refuelling, air surveillance and transportation capacity of coalition members.
> ...


----------



## Gunz (Oct 4, 2014)

A Ranger who's reportedly converted to Islam. Sadly, I don't think it will save him.

Sooner or later the message is going to sink in to volunteer aid workers in the ME that their good deeds are not appreciated.


----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 4, 2014)

Turns out that the rumors were true and is was a Ranger, 1/75.

http://www.havokjournal.com/world/i-knew-isis-captive-peter-kassig-and-yes-he-was-a-ranger


----------



## CQB (Oct 4, 2014)

Semantics, the final frontier. 

http://mobile.nytimes.com/2014/10/03/world/europe/islamic-state-isis-muslims-term.html?referrer=

The non Muslim folk at work use Daesh. So one shouts DAESH! Another will reply BOCHIA! Which is what the bad guys personally yell when theyre rampaging and pillaging. In the context it means "Here to stay," but literally means "remains" Considering that the Copt and Maronite peeps do it, they get a laugh out of it. ( as in we're crushed and we'll stay that way)


----------



## Gunz (Oct 5, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> Turns out that the rumors were true and is was a Ranger, 1/75.


 
I'm hoping at some point our guys will have the opportunity to pull off a successful hostage rescue, with appropriate punishment dealt out in the process.  I don't suppose there'd be any shortage of volunteers, regardless who the hostage is.


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 5, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> I'm hoping at some point our guys will have the opportunity to pull off a successful hostage rescue, with appropriate punishment dealt out in the process.  I don't suppose there'd be any shortage of volunteers, regardless who the hostage is.



That would be great.....but I have a bad feeling it wont happen in time


----------



## MilkTruckCoPilot (Oct 5, 2014)

Sad, I remembered reading about him two years ago.

http://nation.time.com/2013/01/08/an-army-ranger-turned-refugee-helper/

http://www.cnn.com/2012/06/20/world/meast/syria-us-soldier/


----------



## CQB (Oct 5, 2014)

The defence if Kobani. 

This week witnessed the second determined attempt by Islamic State forces to destroy the Kurdish enclave around Kobani (Ayn al-Arab) city in northern Syria. Kobani is one of three autonomous enclaves maintained by the Kurds in Syria.

As of now, it appears that after initial lightning advances, the progress of the jihadis has been halted; they have not moved forward in the last 24 hours. The arrival of Kurdish forces from across the Turkish border is the key element in freezing the advance.

http://www.meforum.org/4832/the-defense-of-kobani


----------



## CQB (Oct 5, 2014)

A rare photo of a Daesh plane before takeoff. It's praying to Allah for a safe journey.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 6, 2014)

CQB said:


> A rare photo of a Daesh plane before takeoff. It's praying to Allah for a safe journey.


 
It's praying to Allah for Level 7 2AX7X Tactical Aircraft Maintenence Craftsmen.


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 6, 2014)

Anyone see this yet?



> The first wave of US airstrikes in Syria last month targeted a former French intelligence officer who defected to Al Qaeda, Mitchell Prothero of McClatchy reports.
> 
> European intelligence officials told McClatchy that the French officer, whose identity is a secret, was the highest-ranking defector to join Al Qaeda. He reportedly defected from either French military intelligence or from France’s foreign intelligence agency (DGSE).
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/us-a...tel-official-who-defected-to-al-qaeda-2014-10


----------



## CQB (Oct 7, 2014)

That's very Le Carre.


----------



## BloodStripe (Oct 7, 2014)

http://www.gruntreport.com/air-force-father-son-targeted-online-by-isil-followers/

PerSec, PerSec, PerSec


----------



## BloodStripe (Oct 7, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> Anyone see this yet?



They won't release a name, only say he was the highest ranking official know to defect. How many other French soldiers have joined them?!


----------



## Marine0311 (Oct 7, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://www.gruntreport.com/air-force-father-son-targeted-online-by-isil-followers/
> 
> PerSec, PerSec, PerSec



On days like this I am glad I don't have one.


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 7, 2014)

The Canadian government is voting on joining the air campaign right now, they have a majority; so the whiney bitches that oppose don't have a say.  So Canadian jets should be im the AO by the weekend.


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 7, 2014)

It's official.  Advance team is already in the AO to secure facilities to base the birds.  



> Six CF-18 fighter-bombers, two CP-140 surveillance planes, one aerial tanker aircraft and 600 personnel are expected to join coalition airstrikes in Iraq for up to six months. The Conservatives’ motion said there would be no troops on the ground.
> 
> http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/politi...ces-personnel-in-fight-against-isis-1.2042926


----------



## Marine0311 (Oct 7, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> It's official.  Advance team is already in the AO to secure facilities to base the birds.



Good. More bombs to blow these assholes to Hell.


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 7, 2014)

Marine0311 said:


> Good. More bombs to blow these assholes to Hell.


Still have to locate them, and that will take boots on the ground.


----------



## pardus (Oct 7, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Still have to locate them, and that will take boots on the ground.



Yeah, I have little to no hope that the air strikes will do anything meaningful.


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 7, 2014)

Should be able to significantly degrade armor and heavy weapons to level the playing field a bit.  But that would require more aggressiveness than we seem willing to undertake.

It's still kind of interesting and frustrating to see how the only ones there, other than the Kurds, that seem to be up to even a half assed fight side with these fucksticks.  The rest don't seem to eager to make a stand.


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 7, 2014)

Sounds like NZ might be sending something somewhere somehow. TBC supposedly but I suspect decisions have already been made. 

http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10588762/Decision-soon-on-Kiwi-role-in-Iraq


----------



## Gunz (Oct 8, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Still have to locate them, and that will take boots on the ground.


 
One would think.

But politicians think politically, not tactically. And they're very comfortable with death from a safe distance.


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 8, 2014)

SpitfireV said:


> Sounds like NZ might be sending something somewhere somehow. TBC supposedly but I suspect decisions have already been made.
> 
> http://www.stuff.co.nz/national/politics/10588762/Decision-soon-on-Kiwi-role-in-Iraq




Send in your best trackers...  you find the livestock and you find the goatfuckers.


----------



## BloodStripe (Oct 8, 2014)

http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=5962

Who posses a bigger threat to world peace, America or ISIS?


----------



## pardus (Oct 8, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://www.campusreform.org/?ID=5962
> 
> Who posses a bigger threat to world peace, America or ISIS?



Students are often too ignorant and misinformed to make any sense.
That said we do have a degree of culpability in what is going on with ISIS.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 9, 2014)

pardus said:


> Students are often too ignorant and misinformed to make any sense.
> That said we do have a degree of culpability in what is going on with ISIS.


 

They either don't know any better or they're just parroting a lot of the crap their socialist profs are pouring in their ears.

I agree that we have some responsibility for the outcome of the stew when we dump ingredients in it and stir the pot, but the critics always seem to come back to _oil interests_. And I ask myself, what's so wrong about going to war over oil_? Everything _depends on its unobstructed flow. The entire global economy runs on it. If oil isn't worth fighting for, what the hell is? Without it, the world stops. Commerce, trade, transportation, trains, planes, trucks, ships, the military, governments, everything grinds to a halt. Even if oil resources are only partially shut down, prices go up, fewer things "go" and the economy suffers.

My answer to critics is get used to it. In fifty or a hundred years with 9 or 10-billion people on this rock we may find ourselves fighting over food, living space and potable water. 

ISIS is a product of so many variables over so many years even one as big as the United States would be hard to find in the mixture of "blame." The fact is, ISIS is operating as a rogue force, beyond the pale of any conduct commensurate with the circumstances that might have conspired to give it its rise.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 10, 2014)

CQB said:


> The defence if Kobani.
> 
> This week witnessed the second determined attempt by Islamic State forces to destroy the Kurdish enclave around Kobani (Ayn al-Arab) city in northern Syria. Kobani is one of three autonomous enclaves maintained by the Kurds in Syria.
> 
> ...


 
As an update, the BBC is reporting this morning that Kobani has fallen to ISIS.


----------



## Marine0311 (Oct 10, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> As an update, the BBC is reporting this morning that Kobani has fallen to ISIS.



Epic fail. :wall:


----------



## pardus (Oct 10, 2014)

I hope the Kurds managed to conduct a withdrawal rather than be over run and slaughtered.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 10, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Still have to locate them, and that will take boots on the ground.


 
Yeah, the highly-touted airstrikes that were supposed to be stopping ISIS from moving on Kobani, didn't. So now we'll have to go in and pry them out, house to house, room to room. Oh wait...we can't. Never mind.


----------



## Marine0311 (Oct 11, 2014)

http://www.cbsnews.com/news/isis-within-8-miles-of-baghdad-airport-and-armed-with-manpads/

*BAGHDAD *-- Militants of the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS) have infiltrated one of Baghdad's outer suburbs, Abu Ghraib which is only eight miles from the runway perimeter of Baghdad's international airport.

It's cause for serious concern now that the Iraqi Defense Ministry has confirmed ISIS has MANPADs, shoulder fired anti-aircraft missiles.

The Iraqi army is still patrolling Abu Ghraib, but they play cat and mouse with the ISIS fighters who stage hit and run attacks on security forces


----------



## Grunt (Oct 11, 2014)

Airstrikes were a way of saying "I am doing something" without actually doing something.

Unfortunately, ISIS didn't get the memo that they were supposed to stop as a result of them.


----------



## CQB (Oct 13, 2014)

The Kurds seem to have halted them for now. I've heard the Daesh are using inexperienced men, & lets not forget if you were fighting for your home you'd fight hard. 
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/10/12/triple-suicide-bombing-in-iraq-kills-26-kurds/#


----------



## pardus (Oct 13, 2014)

I thought Kobani had fallen? :-/


----------



## CQB (Oct 13, 2014)

Also, it's home turf so the good guys know all the alleys etc. they have home ground advantage. The Kurd commander is apparently female.


----------



## BloodStripe (Oct 14, 2014)

http://abcnews.go.com/International...s-feel-abandoned-kobani-battle-rages-26185761

Feeling abandoned has got to be one of the worst metal emotions when waging war.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 15, 2014)

pardus said:


> I thought Kobani had fallen? :-/


 
I guess the BBC report was a bit premature.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 15, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://abcnews.go.com/International...s-feel-abandoned-kobani-battle-rages-26185761
> 
> Feeling abandoned has got to be one of the worst metal emotions when waging war.


 
Gee, we'd like to help, but...we're up _here_...and they're down _there_...


----------



## BloodStripe (Oct 15, 2014)

https://news.vice.com/video/kurds-l...-border-wars-dispatch-1?utm_source=vicenewsfb


----------



## pardus (Oct 15, 2014)

Seems that the Turks want the Kurds to be wiped out in Kobani.


----------



## AWP (Oct 15, 2014)

pardus said:


> Seems that the Turks want the Kurds to be wiped out in Kobani.


 
People forget that the Turks REALLY hate the Kurds so any Turkish "intervention" needs to be framed with that belief in mind. "Beware strangers bearing gifts" and all that....


----------



## BloodStripe (Oct 15, 2014)

http://news.yahoo.com/photos/syrian...at-u-s-holocaust-museum-1413231477-slideshow/ WARNING: NSFW


----------



## BloodStripe (Oct 15, 2014)

Turkey is now in a bombing campaign. ..http://www.funker530.com/as-kurds-battle-it-out-with-isis-turkey-gets-involved-and-bombs-the-kurds/


----------



## racing_kitty (Oct 15, 2014)

Turkey's actions now are giving me a wicked sense of 2003-style deja vù (sure, you can use a base here.... on second thought, no you can't).  The Turks are willing to allow ISIS to destroy the Kurds all the way up to the Turkish border, and even lend a hand, as we are seeing now.  

What I'm not sure about it how confident Erdogan is about ISIS stopping at the Turkish border.  Does he think they'll stop with Iraq and Syria?  Does he have a plan to cooperate with them if they should come into Turkey?  What is his ability to hold on to his position if ISIS has a different idea regarding who's going to be in charge of Turkey?  I don't know enough to make those speculations, but I'm damned sure interested in seeing how this is going to play out. 

I wish I could be optimistic about the Kurd's chances, but I can't afford that much dope.


----------



## BloodStripe (Oct 15, 2014)

When ISIS enters Turkey, we are doomed to commit ground troops.


----------



## racing_kitty (Oct 15, 2014)

When ISIS enters Turkey, I'll be content to watch their world burn, while shoring up defenses to contain them there.


Oh, who am I kidding?  All the other nations would look at me like Chicken Little on meth for that.


----------



## Marine0311 (Oct 15, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> When ISIS enters Turkey, we are doomed to commit ground troops.



I hope and pray you are wrong brother.


----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 15, 2014)

Turkey has Article 5 of NATO to fall back on if ISIS crosses into Turkey... which I don't think they'll do.  

The border in that area appears to be both well-marked and well-guarded.  I think ISIS knows it will get a spanking for the highly capable (by regional standards) Turkish army, and will find an excuse to not crosss them. Meanwhile Turkey is quite happy to have ISIS carry out ethnic cleansing against those pesky Kurds, while simultaneously threatening to topple the Assad regime, which Turkey also doesn't like.  The Turks are also getting some credibility by standing up to "the man" and telling the US to piss off...


----------



## AWP (Oct 15, 2014)

Mad props to Turkey for turning this into a "win" for them. Doesn't mean I like it or think they don't deserve an ass beating, but...well done. Assholes.


----------



## racing_kitty (Oct 15, 2014)

[Soup Nazi Voice] No NATO for you! [/Soup Nazi Voice]


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 15, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> [Soup Nazi Voice] No NATO for you! [/Soup Nazi Voice]


Wrong, Turkey already invoked Art V. and we have two Patriot Batteries in Turkey as a result.
Obama should tell the Turks to assist us, or we will remove our Patriot Batteries.


----------



## racing_kitty (Oct 15, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Obama should tell the Turks to assist us, or we will remove our Patriot Batteries.



Which comes down to [Soup Nazi Voice] No NATO for you! [/Soup Nazi Voice]

But we know that won't happen, ever.


----------



## BloodStripe (Oct 16, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Wrong, Turkey already invoked Art V. and we have two Patriot Batteries in Turkey as a result.
> Obama should tell the Turks to assist us, or we will remove our Patriot Batteries.



One small problem...






our POTUS has none.


----------



## pardus (Oct 16, 2014)

Fuck Turkey, they've gone downhill a lot in recent times after electing the Islamists to power. Ataturk must be rolling in his grave.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 16, 2014)

Area envisioned by Islamic State.  But who's to say they'd stop there?






Kurds watching Turkish tanks north of Kobani. Beware of turrets doing 180s.


----------



## Dame (Oct 16, 2014)

Boy, John Kerry really sucks at wagging the dog.




> *Russia denies agreed with US to share intel on IS militants*
> Moscow (AFP) - Moscow on Thursday denied a US assertion that it had agreed to ramp up intelligence-sharing with Washington over the Islamic State group, saying it would provide no such help without UN Secuity Council approval.
> The statement by Russia's foreign ministry contradicted a declaration by US Secretary of State John Kerry made after a meeting in Paris on Tuesday with his Russian counterpart Sergei Lavrov.
> Moscow "will not join any 'coalition' set up without the backing of the UN Security Council and that violates international law," the ministry said.
> It pointed out that a bilateral commission involving Washington and Moscow that aimed to help tackle terrorism had been scrapped by the US.


http://news.yahoo.com/russia-denies-agreed-us-share-intel-militants-140943953.html


----------



## AWP (Oct 16, 2014)

John Kerry sucks in general. A news worthy item about our SecState would be a John Kerry success story. The media telling us he's wrong about something is like a full page article reminding us of the sky's blue tint...


----------



## Gunz (Oct 16, 2014)

Kerry's a fool. The Russians know it, and they play him.


----------



## CQB (Oct 16, 2014)

This is backdated from a few days ago but...I think it's wise for the States to stay out. Duplicity seems to be the catch cry.

Korran said, “The ammunition in the city can last for months, in case the sieges imposed by Turkey on the one hand and IS on the other continue.” He explained that “the world will be surprised at what we are able to do to preserve the city. Yet, we are suffering a severe shortage of health care, since we do not have the ability to treat the wounded as quickly as required. They are unable to return to the battle, particularly since Turkey has imposed a blockade that has prevented us from going to Turkish hospitals, while its border is wide open to IS to get medical treatment and other [services].”

Read more: http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/sec...urce=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter#ixzz3GBuIDErc


----------



## Dame (Oct 17, 2014)

So glad he cleared _that_ up. :-/ 



> *Syrian Ambassador Calls ISIS An ‘American Myth’*
> The Syrian Ambassador to India claimed that ISIS was an American invention on Wednesday, among other controversial remarks.
> ...
> “ISIS is an American myth, which gets direct support from Tayyip Erdogan’s [the president] Turkey and is funded by Saudi Arabia and Qatar,” according to Ambassador Riad Kamel Abbas. “Al Qaeda appeared in Syria after the US invaded Iraq. Before that there was no al Qaeda in Syria. It is clear that al Qaeda was created by the US and it is supporting ISIS.”


http://news.yahoo.com/syrian-ambassador-calls-isis-american-myth-230412940.html


----------



## AWP (Oct 17, 2014)

Well...on the bright side it shows our diplomats don't have the market cornered on idiotic statements.


----------



## Rapid (Oct 17, 2014)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29660029

*Islamic State 'training pilots to fly fighter jets'*

"Iraqi pilots who have joined Islamic State are training its members in Syria to fly three captured fighter jets, according to a UK-based activist group that monitors the conflict. The Syrian Observatory for Human Rights (SOHR) said witnesses had seen the planes being flown around a military airport in Aleppo."



Hajjis in jets... pinch me.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 17, 2014)

Rapid said:


> Hajjis in jets... pinch me.


 
I give the ISAF--looking at sweep second hand--about 90 seconds of flight time before a screaming, fiery death.


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 17, 2014)

Rapid said:


> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-middle-east-29660029
> 
> *Islamic State 'training pilots to fly fighter jets'*
> 
> ...


That's awesome.   The quicker to kill them.   If they were ever to try and make it out of Syria they'd be completely wiped out within a matter of seconds.  It might make for some entertaining HUD video.


----------



## Grunt (Oct 17, 2014)

I can't wait to see how many of their own planes are shot down by their own pilots. HaHaHa.....


----------



## AWP (Oct 17, 2014)

The odds of them executing CAS are marginally better than my odds of nailing Helen Mirren. All they can really do is a one-way "Baka" mission, thus forcing us to maintain a CAP. Ebola will probably kill more Americans than these clowns.


----------



## racing_kitty (Oct 17, 2014)

Yeah, hardline Islamists usually don't pay attention to the block of instruction for landing the aircraft, do they?

Assuming any of them can keep those birds aloft, I'd be willing to bet that hajji dogfights against western pilots would become the AFV of war porn (complete with Benny Hill music), more so than any FLIR recordings of homosexual orgies involving livestock and Hellfire missiles.  Fly against anyone who's done stick time with either the Thunderbirds or Blue Angels, and they become the Washington Generals to our Harlem Globetrotters jet jocks.


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 17, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> The odds of them executing CAS are marginally better than my odds of nailing Helen Mirren. All they can really do is a one-way "Baka" mission, thus forcing us to maintain a CAP. Ebola will probably kill more Americans than these clowns.





racing_kitty said:


> Yeah, hardline Islamists usually don't pay attention to the block of instruction for landing the aircraft, do they?
> 
> Assuming any of them can keep those birds aloft, I'd be willing to bet that hajji dogfights against western pilots would become the AFV of war porn (complete with Benny Hill music), more so than any FLIR recordings of homosexual orgies involving livestock and Hellfire missiles.  Fly against anyone who's done stick time with either the Thunderbirds or Blue Angels, and they become the Washington Generals to our Harlem Globetrotters jet jocks.


I am sure the F-15 crews (both variety) are drooling at the thought of popping an AMRAAM at these guys.
I am also sure the F-22 guys will start getting daylight sorties if they think we have good data on proposed takeoff/landing times.


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 17, 2014)

Our CF-18 guys would love to get some live fire time.


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 17, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> Our CF-18 guys would love to get some live fire time.


Don't they have ranges in Canada for that stuff?


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 17, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Don't they have ranges in Canada for that stuff?



Yes, but for some reason no one wants to volunteer being shot at.


----------



## Dame (Oct 17, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> The odds of them executing CAS are marginally better than my odds of nailing Helen Mirren. All they can really do is a one-way "Baka" mission, thus forcing us to maintain a CAP. Ebola will probably kill more Americans than these clowns.


ROFL! My money's on you and Dame Helen.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Oct 17, 2014)

For some reason I picture a guy in a flanel shirt with a pile cap on running thru waist deep snow being chased by F-18's....

:blkeye:


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 17, 2014)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> For some reason I picture a guy in a flanel shirt with a pile cap on running thru waist deep snow being chased by F-18's....
> 
> :blkeye:



That's how we catch shoplifters at the beer store.


----------



## Rapid (Oct 18, 2014)

The next logical step is Hajjis in space.

I think there's a movie to be made somewhere with this.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 18, 2014)

So did our fun little government do ANYTHING over there to prevent bad stuff falling into the hands of bad people?  I almost spilled my coffee reading this quote:

_'Frankly, the weapons could be used by ISIS,” Kean said. “Our troops’ mission was not to clean this up; that was something the Iraqis were supposed to do, and obviously they didn’t do a very good job of it,” the general added. “I know from talking to people who were involved, that the Sunni insurgents used some of these weapons as IED’s against us.”_

How the "F" do you just leave this stuff and say, "meh, we'll let the Iraqis clean up all these deadly gases and nerve agents.  Nothing bad could come from that...."

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2014/1...dam-mysterious-bunker-fear-weapons-unleashed/


----------



## BloodStripe (Oct 18, 2014)

I always knew the Brits future was screwed (we aren't looking much better over here), but they are more fucked than I thought.

https://news.vice.com/article/brita...t-would-be-islamophobic?utm_source=vicenewsfb


----------



## Grunt (Oct 18, 2014)

Anyone who has been paying any attention at all to Britain sees this as being no surprise at all. It's only be!coming what we have been seeing for years. 

They are only reaping what they have been sowing. 

Good for them!


----------



## pardus (Oct 18, 2014)

*'You can't stay sitting on your couch', says member of Dutch motorcycle gang joining fight against Islamic State militants*

**


----------



## CQB (Oct 18, 2014)

You couldn't make this up. But neither could you, with flying jund'allah. 

Members of a Dutch motorcyle gang have joined Kurdish Peshmerga forces in the fight against self-styled Islamic State militants in Iraq.

The 'No Surrender' Motorcycle Club have been fighting on the front line with local Kurdish forces for some time and government officials in Holland have recently ruled that gang members will not face prosecution on their return home.

http://www.itv.com/news/2014-10-18/dutch-bikers-join-kurdish-troops-in-battle-against-islamic-state/

Paging a Mr. Pardus, Mr. Pardus please come to reception.


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 18, 2014)

Gotta love the Dutch government....

"The Dutch public prosecutor said on Tuesday that motorbike gang members who have reportedly joined Kurds battling the Islamic State group in Iraq are not necessarily committing any crime.
“Joining a foreign armed force was previously punishable, now it’s no longer forbidden,” public prosecutor spokesman Wim de Bruin told AFP."


----------



## BloodStripe (Oct 18, 2014)

Agoge said:


> Anyone who has been paying any attention at all to Britain sees this as being no surprise at all. It's only be!coming what we have been seeing for years.
> 
> They are only reaping what they have been sowing.
> 
> Good for them!


I thought there was still a backbone to be found though.


----------



## CQB (Oct 19, 2014)

Well Brit Students
a) this is what the locals think, they're Muslims 
b) this thread officially just got weird.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 19, 2014)

CQB said:


> b) this thread officially just got weird.


 
It was inevitable.


----------



## racing_kitty (Oct 19, 2014)

CQB said:


> Well Brit Students
> a) this is what the locals think, they're Muslims
> b) this thread officially just got weird.



I couldn't help but laugh at the whole video.  Even though I don't normally like that style of music, I'm going to be humming that song all day.  Good on the Kurds!!!


----------



## Gunz (Oct 19, 2014)

Rapid said:


> The next logical step is Hajjis in space.
> 
> I think there's a movie to be made somewhere with this.


 
Why not?


----------



## Rapid (Oct 19, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> Why not?



Well, on second thought, Jews have the science to fly into space, while Muslim faith only goes so far as flying into buildings.


----------



## Rapid (Oct 19, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> I always knew the Brits future was screwed (we aren't looking much better over here), but they are more fucked than I thought.
> 
> https://news.vice.com/article/brita...t-would-be-islamophobic?utm_source=vicenewsfb



The NUS are just a bunch of faggots.

A union for professional victims.


----------



## CQB (Oct 19, 2014)

Rapid said:


> Well, on second thought, Jews have the science to fly into space, while Muslim faith only goes so far as flying into buildings.


Ah habibi, you forget the prophet rose to heaven on a winged horse. He beat the Jews into space by several centuries. All Hail!!


----------



## pardus (Oct 20, 2014)

ISIS is out of control, something must be done to stop them!!!

*ISIS releases snippet of new Nickelback single, threaten to unleash full song if demands not met*


----------



## CQB (Oct 21, 2014)

Free unstoppable download from iTunes...The Apocalypse is upon us.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 21, 2014)

Where is the andedote? GIVE ME THE ANTEDOTE!


----------



## pardus (Oct 21, 2014)




----------



## AWP (Oct 21, 2014)

Not, but a fire and a $29.99 PPV would go a long way....Fire cleanses everything.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 22, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> Not, but a fire and a $29.99 PPV would go a long way....Fire cleanses everything.


 
And Stevie Ray Vaughan and copius beers while you watch it burn.


----------



## compforce (Nov 1, 2014)

Wow, who ever thought this could happen...:wall:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/3866779933001


----------



## Gunz (Nov 1, 2014)

compforce said:


> Wow, who ever thought this could happen...:wall:


 
This is how they repay us after we were nice enough to set them free. What ingratitude. :whatever:


----------



## pardus (Nov 1, 2014)

compforce said:


> Wow, who ever thought this could happen...:wall:
> 
> http://video.foxnews.com/v/3866779933001



Good job liberal dickheads. Sleep easy knowing you have aided and abetted in the brutal murder of many innocents.


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 2, 2014)

Interesting turn of events....."the enemy of my enemy is my friend" philosophy being applied.

"Islamic State, Nusra combine to rout US-backed forces in Syria"

http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world...-to-rout-us-backed-forces-in-syria/ar-BBcrjK0


----------



## RackMaster (Nov 5, 2014)

Canada’s first strikes.


----------



## Brill (Nov 5, 2014)

Bulldozer and a truck...high-Pri target?:wall:


----------



## AWP (Nov 5, 2014)

lindy said:


> Bulldozer and a truck...high-Pri target?:wall:


 
Maybe it was a Killdozer?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer


----------



## MilkTruckCoPilot (Nov 5, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> Canada’s first strikes.



Glad there was a reflective belt in the opening of the video.


----------



## Brill (Nov 5, 2014)

MilkTruckCoPilot said:


> Glad there was a reflective belt in the opening of the video.



Fucking Palis are runnin' folks over in the Izz!!!  Expect glowbelts to become MANDO for all USMIL off-base pedestrian travel!!!


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 5, 2014)

lindy said:


> Bulldozer and a truck...high-Pri target?:wall:


Actually, yes.
Build fortifications, etc.
Thank you Canada for joining a coalition led by a team of idiots.


----------



## CQB (Nov 6, 2014)

Hi Viz...:wall:


----------



## Brill (Nov 6, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Actually, yes.
> Build fortifications, etc.
> Thank you Canada for joining a coalition led by a team of idiots.



One could argue it would be more effective to kill the dozer operators.


----------



## medicchick (Nov 6, 2014)

lindy said:


> One could argue it would be more effective to kill the dozer operators.


Except it's fairly easy to figure out how to run one if it doesn't have to pretty, just functional.  Plus what if everyone is trained on how to operate the equipment?


----------



## Brill (Nov 6, 2014)

medicchick said:


> Except it's fairly easy to figure out how to run one if it doesn't have to pretty, just functional.  Plus what if everyone is trained on how to operate the equipment?



Kill them until they are dead.


----------



## RackMaster (Nov 6, 2014)

lindy said:


> Kill them until they are dead.



I'm pretty sure if they were operating the equipment, they are dead.


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 6, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> Maybe it was a Killdozer?
> 
> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_Heemeyer


These beauties are being used so why not?:
http://www.theguardian.com/science/2014/sep/30/homemade-armoured-vehicles-isis-peshmerga


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 7, 2014)

*Here we go.....:wall:

13,000 US troops to be deployed to Iraq

http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/25/379964/us-to-deploy-13k-troops-to-iraq/*


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 7, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> *Here we go.....:wall:
> 
> 13,000 US troops to be deployed to Iraq
> 
> http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/25/379964/us-to-deploy-13k-troops-to-iraq/*


Isn't that an Iranian Website?

They just announced another 1500 troops (effectively doubling the size).


----------



## pardus (Nov 7, 2014)

It would be hilarious if the 13K was real and the Iranians were the first to let the story out. However I'll wait until I hear it from a source that's not in a country that still prosecutes people for witchcraft.


----------



## Brill (Nov 7, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> *Here we go.....:wall:
> 
> 13,000 US troops to be deployed to Iraq
> 
> http://www.presstv.ir/detail/2014/09/25/379964/us-to-deploy-13k-troops-to-iraq/*



You do realize that's an Iranian domain?


----------



## Totentanz (Nov 7, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Isn't that an Iranian Website?
> 
> They just announced another 1500 troops (effectively doubling the size).



The Iranian press is exceedingly renowned for their accuracy in reporting... [/sarc]


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 7, 2014)

OOOOPS....yeah F'd up there, one of those days, glad it's friday

how about 1500 in a "non combat role"

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/07/politics/obama-sends-troops-to-iraq/index.html


----------



## Brill (Nov 8, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> OOOOPS....yeah F'd up there, one of those days, glad it's friday
> 
> how about 1500 in a "non combat role"
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/07/politics/obama-sends-troops-to-iraq/index.html



Notice how the mantra "I inherited this war from Bush" has completely died down.  What's the little general going to do when we need to send air power and advisors to shore up Afghan security forces?

The big loser here is the other COCOM commanders who expected the post-Afghan assets to secure their AORs.

"We don't have an anti-ISIL strategy yet."  No shit.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 10, 2014)

lindy said:


> Notice how the mantra "I inherited this war from Bush" has completely died down.  What's the little general going to do when we need to send air power and advisors to shore up Afghan security forces?
> 
> The big loser here is the other COCOM commanders who expected the post-Afghan assets to secure their AORs.
> 
> "We don't have an anti-ISIL strategy yet."  No shit.


 






 I dunno...it seemed fitting, somehow


----------



## Brill (Nov 10, 2014)

The "war" against ISIL is now illegal?  Guess the EO on immigration is back burner now?

http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/10/politics/rand-paul-isis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2014/11/10/obama-s-isis-war-is-illegal.html

From Rand Paul:

"Yale Professor Bruce Ackerman puts it succinctly: “The war against the Islamic State is now illegal. *The War Powers Resolution of 1973 gave President Obama 60 days to gain consent from Congress and required him to end ‘hostilities’ within 30 days if he failed to do so.* This 90-day clock expired this week.” And yet, there’s been no consent, and no end to the fighting.

I believe the president must come to Congress to begin a war. I also believe the War Powers Act is misunderstood; President Obama acted without true constitutional authority even before the 90 days expired, *since we were not under attack at that time.*

But in either case, this war is now illegal. It must be declared and made valid, or it must be ended.

Congress has a duty to act, one way or the other.

Taking military action against ISIS is justified. The president acting without Congress is not."


----------



## pardus (Nov 10, 2014)

lindy said:


> Congress has a duty to act, one way or the other.



Good luck with that!


----------



## Grunt (Nov 10, 2014)

lindy said:


> ...Congress has a duty to act, one way or the other...



Brother, you are absolutely correct in your assertion, but many times "inaction" is their action. 

But again, I am in agreement with  you...I just don't hold my breath waiting for them anymore.


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 10, 2014)

Saw this today and it actually pisses me off:




 
How about they (so called Muslim leaders) go to the news and start asking ISIS, al-Shabab, and other Muslim extremists to do the same?  The fact is that Minneapolis is proving itself as an apparent  recruiting hot bed for Muslim extremists in the U.S.  I don't recall her or any other "leaders" vocalizing their outrage at that fact.  Is it profiling?  Perhaps but if the shoes fits...

So, my view is basically this:  fuck her.


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 10, 2014)

lindy said:


> The "war" against ISIL is now illegal?  Guess the EO on immigration is back burner now?
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2014/11/10/politics/rand-paul-isis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2
> 
> ...


Then the Yale Professor should file a lawsuit.


----------



## TLDR20 (Nov 10, 2014)

Blizzard said:


> Saw this today and it actually pisses me off:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...sis_baghdadi_caliphate_s_actions_against.html


----------



## pardus (Nov 10, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...sis_baghdadi_caliphate_s_actions_against.html



Interesting and good to hear. Not sure I can believe/trust the message though.


----------



## Etype (Nov 10, 2014)

^piss in the wind^


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 10, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...sis_baghdadi_caliphate_s_actions_against.html


Thanks.  Here are a few of my issues/concerns with the items presented in the article:

1.  120 scholars, give or take a few, for the largest religion in the world and only 10 are from the U.S.  Perhaps I missed it, but I didn't see the name of the lady from my  video anywhere on that list.  So, we have 10?!  Really?  Where is the U.S. voice speaking to the issues of recruitment and extremism domestically?  9/11 hijackers trained in the Twin Cities, tens of men from Minneapolis go off to fight for al-Shabab, two men from the same high school in the Twin Cities went off to fight and die for ISIS.  Does that not seem worthy of addressing?  Does it imply a larger issue, especially since activities spans, what, 13 years?  They need to step up.

2.  Given #1, and that the letter has been drafted/posted on-line since at least mid-September, does anyone in the Muslim world even care?  Are these 120 even note worthy?  Is this the best they have to offer?  ISIS/ISIL problem really began to explode late last year/early this year (yes, I understand they were around long before that but that's when they really started making significant advances).  So, 9 months later, what do we have?  We have an open letter that is carried in an article by an intern at a second rate media outlet.   This is not a dig at you at all but how hard did you have to search for that article?  Did Al-Jazeera or any of the other popular Muslim media networks publish it (Al Jazeera has on occasion published some of these in the opinion/editorial pages)?  Perhaps more importantly, how about main stream media here?  The point being that these 'leaders' need to go well above and beyond in making their voices heard, especially here....they didn't have an issue bitching to a major network, even if was a local one, about the FBI stopping by (which the FBI may do with many organizations as well).

3.   The letter was not targeted at a broad audience, potential recruits, or npn-Muslims but rather Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi.  As a result, it still doesn't speak to the larger issue that is drawing extremists.  In addition, the letter speaks in term of jihad and conflict against other Muslims as being illegitimate.  How about conflict with non-Muslims?  I'm always a bit of skeptic, especially when it comes to what is not said.  There is a fairly long and established precedent around easily disolved relationships of convenience in that part of the world.


----------



## TLDR20 (Nov 11, 2014)

@Blizzard I'm not arguing with you.


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 14, 2014)




----------



## DA SWO (Nov 14, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> View attachment 12050


Liked and stolen for posting elsewhere.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 14, 2014)

Here's Denmark leading a parade of fools who think the way to deal with ISIS terrorists is to be nice to them...and why not, appeasement has worked so many times before. :-":wall::wall:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...16e8f3-515e-4adc-a2cb-c0261dd7dd4a_story.html

"AARHUS, Denmark — The rush of morning shoppers parted to make way for Talha, a lanky 21-year-old in desert camouflage and a long, religious beard. He strode through the local mall with a fighter’s gait picked up on the battlefields of Syria. Streams of young Muslim men greeted him like a returning king.  _As-salamu alaykum._ _Wa alaikum assalaam._ In other countries, Talha — one of hundreds of young jihadists from the West who has fought in Syria and Iraq — might be barred from return or thrown in jail. *But in Denmark, a country that has spawned more foreign fighters per capita than almost anywhere else, the port city of Aarhus is taking a novel approach by rolling out a welcome mat."
*


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 16, 2014)

Damn, I was hoping this one would turn out differently. I guess hope is not a strategy after all. 

New Islamic State video appears to show murder of Peter Kassig -
Peter Kassig, 26, an aid worker and former U.S. soldier, was originally paraded at the end of a video released in October showing the murder of Briton Alan Henning.

*Read full article*


----------



## Worldweaver (Nov 16, 2014)

"...In the fell clutch of circumstance
 I have not winced nor cried aloud.
Under the bludgeonings of chance
 My head is bloody, but unbowed.

Beyond this place of wrath and tears
 Looms but the Horror of the shade,
And yet the menace of the years
 Finds and shall find me unafraid.

It matters not how strait the gate,
 How charged with punishments the scroll,
I am the master of my fate,
 I am the captain of my soul."

-Henley


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 16, 2014)

RIP Peter Kassig

http://america.aljazeera.com/articl...eheadingofusaidworkeringrislyonlinevideo.html


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 16, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> RIP Peter Kassig
> 
> http://america.aljazeera.com/articl...eheadingofusaidworkeringrislyonlinevideo.html


Is this "the" video?  I have no interest in watching and do not want to click if it will take me directly there.


----------



## Grunt (Nov 16, 2014)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Is this "the" video?  I have no interest in watching and do not want to click if it will take me directly there.



No...that is just a link to their article.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 17, 2014)

Payback will come to these motherfuckers.


----------



## pardus (Nov 17, 2014)

It was inevitable unfortunately...

RIP.


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 17, 2014)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Is this "the" video?  I have no interest in watching and do not want to click if it will take me directly there.



Sorry about that, No.....it's just a news story link.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 17, 2014)

I've read a few reports that Kassig was not featured doing an "I hate America" speech (like all of the others) because he was either killed in a recent airstrike or resisted to the very end.  I'd like to believe it was the latter, that he lived his military oath until the end.


----------



## BloodStripe (Nov 19, 2014)

http://www.barstoolsports.com/barst...roll-the-shit-out-of-isis-on-twitter-all-day/

Only thing better than trolling IS is killing them.


----------



## AWP (Nov 21, 2014)

I just (6 hours ago) flew from Dubai to London, a trip I've made a dozen times. We always flew over Iraq, even when things were hectic there . 

Today we flew over Iran and dog legged around Iraq into Turkey. The closest we came to an Iraqi city was Basra .


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 8, 2014)

Interesting:
http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/12/07/249256_suspected-israeli-war-jets-strike.html?sp=/99/117/&rh=1

Multiple news outlets reporting an Israeli airstrike on suspected Syrian SA-300 launchers/parts, etc.

I would think we'd be able to watch if it happened, but news reports say we have aircraft over Syria daily, so (if it was Israel) did we get notice? did we provide some IFF codes?  did we miss it?  

Obviously I am only able to speculate, but these reports generate many questions (in my head).  

I just wish the voices would generate answers.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 9, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Obviously I am only able to speculate, but these reports generate many questions (in my head).
> 
> I just wish the voices would generate answers.


 

Israel will neither confirm nor deny which, historically, has always meant: "Seriously, do you _really _have to ask?" I'd suspect, like you, any incursion by IAF in the proximity of US air ops would require some kind of prearranged notification, wouldn't it? The dangers of not doing so are obvious. One would think.

But the voices in my head are not much help.


----------



## CQB (Dec 9, 2014)

A-10s' are coming back too.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 9, 2014)

CQB said:


> A-10s' are coming back too.


 
I have a feeling our friends on the ground will make good use of them.


----------



## CQB (Dec 9, 2014)

Surely.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 9, 2014)

CQB said:


> A-10s' are coming back too.


They have been in-theater for awhile now.


----------



## CQB (Dec 9, 2014)

SOWT said:


> They have been in-theater for awhile now.


Even better!


----------



## Blizzard (Dec 9, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Interesting:
> http://www.mcclatchydc.com/2014/12/07/249256_suspected-israeli-war-jets-strike.html?sp=/99/117/&rh=1
> 
> Multiple news outlets reporting an Israeli airstrike on suspected Syrian SA-300 launchers/parts, etc.
> ...


Speaking of IFF and coordination, this one was interesting as well:
http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/dec/05/iran-conducts-air-strikes-against-isis-exremists-iraq


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 10, 2014)

O.K.

Apparently the Israeli airstrike was filmed by multiple sources.  Some TTP's discussed in this story.

I disagree with the last sentence.  I believe Israel knows where all of Syria's SAM sites are.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/fo...le-fire-to-attack-urgent-targets-a28cff11323d

On Dec. 7, the Israeli air force carried out a series of surgical air strikes inside Syria. Such strikes are not uncommon in Syria and Lebanon—the Israelis frequently attack convoys carrying weapons to Hezbollah militants in Lebanon and to and degrade Syrian regime forces in southwestern Syria.

But the Dec. 7 strike was fairly unique. For one, much of the air raid was captured on camera. And the video and photographic evidence reveals some very interesting Israeli tactics.

Two formation of Israeli fighter jets, each consisting of two F-15s, entered Syrian airspace at 1600 local time from the direction of Lebanon, heading from west to east toward Damascus at very high altitude and high speed.

The wide spacing between the Israeli jets—both within each two-ship formation and between the two separate pairs—is noteworthy. There’s a good probable cause for this arrangement.

Israeli fighters almost definitely were using electronic jamming to prevent Syrian air defense radars from tracking them at long distance. Russian-made air defense systems, including those in Syria’s possession, include specific means of countering sophisticated enemy jamming.

In the absence of passive radars and an integrated air defense network, Syrian systems could probably still track the azimuth and elevation of incoming jamming signals via their own receivers—albeit with a considerable error margin.

That data could cue Syrian missile batteries’ optical sensors and allow the operators to fire toward the intruders. The spacing between the Israeli F-15s made the error margins overlap and thus made the Syrians’ direction-finding even less accurate, buying valuable time for the planes to get close to their targets.

Even under heavy jamming, Syrian Buk-M2 missile batteries stationed at Mezzeh airport managed to fire two missiles toward the first formation. The Israelis responded with a simple move—they changed direction.

In long-distance shots, medium-range surface-to-air missiles predict a point of impact ahead of incoming aircraft and travel a ballistic trajectory to reach that point. In the last phase of flight, the missile would correct its trajectory using its seeker. A significant change in the target’s direction would mean that the missile would not find the aircraft in the predicted zone.

The first formation of F-15s drew the Syrian missiles toward themselves then turned toward north and released their weapons, striking a small airstrip called Al Sharai in Dimas region west of Damascus. The first formation then made a hard turn to the west and returned to Lebanese skies.

Not far behind, the second formation had already entered Syria.
The pair of F-15s approached Damascus head on—this time the Buk-M2 battery apparently waited for the intruders to change their direction or close in.

The Israeli F-15s released their standoff weapons and made a hard left turn toward the south. Two more Syrian missiles snaked into the sky—the contrails indicating SA-3s. These missiles weren’t aiming for Israeli jets but for the missiles they had fired.

One of the SA-3s hit its target. The wreckage of a Popeye guided missile fell to the ground. The Popeye is a stand-off missile with a warhead weighing 700 pounds. It uses combination of infrared imagery and inertial guidance to precisely attack targets up to 50 miles away from the launch point.

The surviving missiles from the second pair of F-15s struck vehicles and supplies on a ramp at Damascus’ international airport.

It’s interesting that the Israelis used Popeyes. The Israeli air force also possesses the more modern Spice guided weapons that use a combination of GPS and laser guidance.

Lebanese media, including Al Menar TV, reported Israeli jets—probably a reserve force—circling over Lebanon for approximately 30 minutes after the attack, possibly waiting to attack again, if any targets survived.

Israeli fighters carried out a daring mission in broad daylight. The inclusion of Popeye missiles betrays the mobile nature of the targets. Whatever they were, it’s possible they were ready to leave the two airports and scatter in different directions.

The raid was a success for Israel, but it was also risky. An ambush by a lone missile site near the border or a few short-range missiles or guns could have turned the Israeli victory into a defeat.


----------



## Dame (Dec 10, 2014)

Ballsy. Bravo Zulu Israel.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 11, 2014)

SOWT said:


> I disagree with the last sentence.  I believe Israel knows where all of Syria's SAM sites are...


 
I believe you're right, I'd say of course they do. The Israelis aren't omnipotent but they know what's under every stone in their own backyard.


----------



## CQB (Dec 20, 2014)

The shine seems to have dimmed on the Islamic fairy tale.

The Islamic State extremist group has executed 100 of its own foreign fighters who tried to flee their headquarters in the Syrian city of Raqqa, the Financial Times newspaper said Saturday.
An activist opposed to both IS and the regime of Syrian President Bashar al-Assad, who is well-known to the British business broadsheet, said he had "verified 100 executions" of foreign IS fighters trying to leave the jihadist group's de facto capital.

http://www.gulf-times.com/mobile//r...-executed-100-foreign-fighters-trying-to-quit


----------



## pardus (Dec 20, 2014)

My heart bleeds... I won't be happy until every single IS member and supporter is dead.


----------



## AWP (Dec 20, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> I just (6 hours ago) flew from Dubai to London, a trip I've made a dozen times. We always flew over Iraq, even when things were hectic there .
> 
> Today we flew over Iran and dog legged around Iraq into Turkey. The closest we came to an Iraqi city was Basra .


 
Going back to Dubai from London this week: same deal. We never overflew Iraq. That's kind of telling...


----------



## Florida173 (Dec 20, 2014)

I flew over Baghdad and Mosul right before Ramadan and when I thought Baghdad was gonna fall.

Dubai to Frankfurt.

Sure drank a good amount of liters of beer in Frankfurt.


----------



## AWP (Dec 20, 2014)

Florida173 said:


> I flew over Baghdad and Mosul right before Ramadan and when I thought Baghdad was gonna fall.
> 
> Dubai to Frankfurt.
> 
> Sure drank a good amount of liters of beer in Frankfurt.


 
Lufthansa? I was on British Air.


----------



## Florida173 (Dec 20, 2014)

I think it may have been lufthansa.. May have been Doha to Frankfurt too, but same thing


----------



## AWP (Dec 20, 2014)

Countries can lose or make a ton of money with overflight rights. Afghanistan pulls down over 50 million a year from them alone. I'd think Iraq stands to lose much more.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 22, 2014)

Some good news...

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/ku...f-mount-sinjar-as-militants-flee-659b4e10b218


----------



## Kraut783 (Dec 23, 2014)

Hooray for the Kurds!  I do hope they come out on top at the end.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 24, 2014)

Jordanian Pilot shot down last night...this poor man is fucked.  I do not even want to try to imagine the horror that must fill his mind at this very moment...jesus, it looks like he's naked from the waste down.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ot-warplane-Syria-claim-monitoring-group.html


----------



## Raptor (Dec 24, 2014)

I wonder how they shot it down. I thought our Raptors took out their Air Defense.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 24, 2014)

I hate this. Almost wish I hadn't checked the news this morning.


----------



## Raptor (Dec 24, 2014)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I hate this. Almost wish I hadn't checked the news this morning.


When I first checked, I was thankful it wasn't an American (I still am), but it still sucks and prayers are definitely going out to this guy and his family.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 24, 2014)

Raptor said:


> I wonder how they shot it down. I thought our Raptors took out their Air Defense.


Airplanes break and pilots eject.


----------



## Florida173 (Dec 24, 2014)

Raptor said:


> I wonder how they shot it down. I thought our Raptors took out their Air Defense.


Report suggests they have iglas


----------



## Raptor (Dec 24, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Airplanes break and pilots eject.


I know, but that article said that it was probably shot down.


----------



## CDG (Dec 24, 2014)

Florida173 said:


> Report suggests they have iglas



The presumption is always that MANPADs are present.  No way to track numbers on those and say that they've all been eliminated.  That being said, I'd be pretty surprised if one took down an F-16.  16's can remain well above the threat ring, and have plenty of ways to counter a MANPAD, even the more advanced ones.  Either the pilot really fucked up, or it was an IFE that the IS is claiming as a shootdown to bolster their reputation.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 24, 2014)

@CDG , forgive me, but IFE?  My Google Fu is failing me today.


----------



## CDG (Dec 24, 2014)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @CDG , forgive me, but IFE?  My Google Fu is failing me today.


In Flight Emergency.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 24, 2014)

CDG said:


> In Flight Emergency.


or I Fucking Ejected :-/
That is my thought, we won't know until he is retrieved.
Jordan is saying AAA got him, but I wouldn't be surprised if an IFE forced him into the engagement envelope and then he was hit.


----------



## Raptor (Dec 24, 2014)

Right now I'm just hoping we're able to get him back at all.


----------



## Kraut783 (Dec 24, 2014)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Jordanian Pilot shot down last night...this poor man is fucked.  I do not even want to try to imagine the horror that must fill his mind at this very moment...jesus, it looks like he's naked from the waste down.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ot-warplane-Syria-claim-monitoring-group.html




yeah, he is so fucked.  May his death be quick........


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 24, 2014)

US is claiming pilot was not shot down...depending on who you believe, IFE is most likely.  Something about this story, maybe the absolutely terrified look in his photos, I cannot stop thinking about this man tonight.


----------



## Raptor (Dec 24, 2014)

Ooh-Rah said:


> US is claiming pilot was not shot down...depending on who you believe, IFE is most likely.  Something about this story, maybe the absolutely terrified look in his photos, I cannot stop thinking about this man tonight.


If it was an IFE, I definitely feel better about out planes over there, at least.


----------



## CDG (Dec 25, 2014)

Raptor said:


> If it was an IFE, I definitely feel better about out planes over there, at least.



What?  What do you mean?


----------



## Raptor (Dec 25, 2014)

CDG said:


> What?  What do you mean?


Because that would mean he wasn't shot down. Which means they might not be able to shoot down our planes. I may be wrong with that thinking, but I don't understand it all.


----------



## CQB (Dec 26, 2014)

Allah will protect them, meanwhile my heart bleeds buckets of piss. 

GAZIANTEP, Turkey — The Islamic State’s vaunted exercise in state-building appears to be crumbling as living conditions deteriorate across the territories under its control, exposing the shortcomings of a group that devotes most of its energies to fighting battles and enforcing strict rules.

Services are collapsing, prices are soaring, and medicines are scarce in towns and cities across the “caliphate” proclaimed in Iraq and Syria by the Islamic State, residents say, belying the group’s boasts that it is delivering a model form of governance for Muslims.


http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...bf8962-8092-11e4-b936-f3afab0155a7_story.html


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 26, 2014)

CQB said:


> Allah will protect them, meanwhile my heart bleeds buckets of piss.
> 
> GAZIANTEP, Turkey — The Islamic State’s vaunted exercise in state-building appears to be crumbling as living conditions deteriorate across the territories under its control, exposing the shortcomings of a group that devotes most of its energies to fighting battles and enforcing strict rules.
> 
> ...


LOL.


----------



## pardus (Dec 26, 2014)




----------



## Gunz (Dec 27, 2014)

I have a good hair removal suggestion. Nape.


----------



## AWP (Dec 27, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> I have a good hair removal suggestion. Nape.


 
Sticks like glue...sticks to old women and children too.


----------



## AWP (Dec 27, 2014)

ISIL has an interesting decision to make: Off the Jordanian pilot for fighting against Allah's chosen ones (or whatever BS they're pushing) or they let the guy live and their "faithful" will question why they allowed an "apostate" to live.

"We're the righteous Muslims here, so bombing us means they side with the Infidels. Off with his head."
"We're the righteous Muslims here, so not killing the pilot means we're weak or hypocrites for not killing the guy who just bombed us."


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 27, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> ISIL has an interesting decision to make: Off the Jordanian pilot for fighting against Allah's chosen ones (or whatever BS they're pushing) or they let the guy live and their "faithful" will question why they allowed an "apostate" to live.
> 
> "We're the righteous Muslims here, so bombing us means they side with the Infidels. Off with his head."
> "We're the righteous Muslims here, so not killing the pilot means we're weak or hypocrites for not killing the guy who just bombed us."


Or kill a guy who is politically connected and really piss the Jordanians off.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 27, 2014)

@Freefalling , I was going to ask if you had a guess either way, but nothing ISIL does is founded on logic, so I imagine it would be tough to determine what they will do with him in the end.  Maybe it's due to the Christmas season, but I've not stopped thinking about that pilot since the first pics went out of him stripped below the waist, with a look of pure acknowledgement of how fucked he was/is.


----------



## AWP (Dec 27, 2014)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @Freefalling , I was going to ask if you had a guess either way, but nothing ISIL does is founded on logic, so I imagine it would be tough to determine what they will do with him in the end.  Maybe it's due to the Christmas season, but I've not stopped thinking about that pilot since the first pics went out of him stripped below the waist, with a look of pure acknowledgement of how fucked he was/is.


 
At least it isn't the female Major from the UAE....but it sucks regardless.

Yeah, capturing a fellow Muslim kicks thing up a notch or ten. Do the other Muslim nations stay the course if this guy is executed? Do they leave? Do they go all Batman on that Middle Eastern Gotham? Do they stay in the fight, but suddenly stop flying over certain areas or have "aiming" problems on their bombing runs? Something(s) will change, but none of us know what.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 27, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> At least it isn't the female Major from the UAE....but it sucks regardless.
> 
> Yeah, capturing a fellow Muslim kicks thing up a notch or ten. Do the other Muslim nations stay the course if this guy is executed? Do they leave? Do they go all Batman on that Middle Eastern Gotham? Do they stay in the fight, but suddenly stop flying over certain areas or have "aiming" problems on their bombing runs? Something(s) will change, but none of us know what.


What's with the female Major?


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 27, 2014)

@SOWT , he's talking about this gal.  
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...l-international-aggression-against-Syria.html


----------



## Gunz (Dec 28, 2014)

ISIL's made the killing of "fellow" Muslims one of its specialties. Why should this Jordanian pilot be any different? They've killed thousand of Muslims. He's totally fucked. In their radical view _they _are the true believers and followers and interpreters of the Prophet. And any Muslim who doesn't interpret the word of Allah the same as they do, is a disbeliever.

_Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers. _

He's fucked.


----------



## racing_kitty (Dec 28, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> ISIL's made the killing of "fellow" Muslims one of its specialties. Why should this Jordanian pilot be any different? They've killed thousand of Muslims. He's totally fucked. In their radical view _they _are the true believers and followers and interpreters of the Prophet. And any Muslim who doesn't interpret the word of Allah the same as they do, is a disbeliever.
> 
> _Whoso judgeth not by that which Allah hath revealed: such are disbelievers. _
> 
> He's fucked.



That particular world view is what has fueled the fight between Sunni and Shia for a very long time.  Given, 1400 some-odd years ago, it started out as a war of succession, but it mutated over the centuries into exactly what Ocoka One just stated.  

He's well and truly fucked.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 28, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> That particular world view is what has fueled the fight...


 
And the Israelis have long taken advantage of it, incorporating into their playbook the disunity, hatred, mistrust and religious strife characteristic among their Arab enemies. It's the major weakness of the Muslim/Arab world and has been since the days of T.E. Lawrence. They'd all end up killing each other if nobody was around to interfere.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 2, 2015)

Rescue attempt on the Syrian pilot.  Aborted.  The attached article implies that US SOF may have been involved...who knows.

ETA - As I type this, I see the headline updated to specifically state US SOF involvement.  ...

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...S-shot-Syria-helicopters-come-heavy-fire.html


----------



## Gunz (Jan 2, 2015)

I hope none of the good guys got hurt.

Some of the peanut-gallery comments at the end of the article surprised me. Either _Mail _readers have no idea how extraordinarily difficult these operations are or they've got a bunch of adolescent pukes posting replies.


----------



## Raptor (Jan 2, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Rescue attempt on the Syrian pilot.  Aborted.  The attached article implies that US SOF may have been involved...who knows.
> 
> ETA - As I type this, I see the headline updated to specifically state US SOF involvement.  ...
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...S-shot-Syria-helicopters-come-heavy-fire.html


Read the article, then the comments, have to say I agree with the ones by Gobstopper and tlv.


----------



## reed11b (Jan 2, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Rescue attempt on the Syrian pilot.  Aborted.  The attached article implies that US SOF may have been involved...who knows.
> 
> ETA - As I type this, I see the headline updated to specifically state US SOF involvement.  ...
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...S-shot-Syria-helicopters-come-heavy-fire.html


 Oops, made the mistake of reading the comments. Some day I will learn.
Reed


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 2, 2015)

I've been waiting with "held breath" since he was shot down. Somehow this one seems different, I'm so concerned a U.S. soldier will be captured during a rescue attempt. My heart skipped a beat when I read the initial headline.


----------



## Raptor (Jan 2, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I've been waiting with "held breath" since he was shot down. Somehow this one seems different, I'm so concerned a U.S. soldier will be captured during a rescue attempt. My heart skipped a beat when I read the initial headline.


I'm getting the feeling that people who write headlines don't actually read the articles...


----------



## racing_kitty (Jan 2, 2015)

Raptor said:


> I'm getting the feeling that people who write headlines don't actually read the articles...



While the DM is better than a lot of what we're expected to swallow from the American media outlets, they have a pretty bad habit of writing click bait for headlines, and their editors let that slide.  

Pretty damning of American media that I'd rather go to a Brit tabloid than any native source.


----------



## pardus (Jan 3, 2015)

*Islamic State Militants In Syria Ask Twitter To 'Suggest A Way To Kill The Jordanian Pilot Pig'*



> Twitter responses include "beheading", "burning him alive" and "running him over with a bulldozer".




 

Poor bastard...


----------



## Grunt (Jan 3, 2015)

There are some humanoids that simply need to be eradicated.....


----------



## Gunz (Jan 3, 2015)

racing_kitty said:


> ...Pretty damning of American media that I'd rather go to a Brit tabloid than any native source.


 
The DM consistently out-scoops American media and prints what American editors love to ignore, such as anything negative about Hillery Clinton.


----------



## Florida173 (Jan 4, 2015)

Kinda of relates to what I've been saying about this threat since the beginning. Underestimating and characterizing them as just another insurgency, especially because of what some people think they know about how they evolved, is incredibly naive.

We're going to be there for a long time.

http://www.independent.co.uk/voices...gain-in-its-fight-against-terror-9955853.html



> Underrating the strength of Isis was the third of three great mistakes made by the US and its Western allies in Syria since 2011, errors that fostered the explosive growth of Isis. Between 2011 and 2013 they were convinced that Assad would fall in much the same way as Muammar Gaddafi had in Libya.
> 
> Despite repeated warnings from the Iraqi government, Washington never took on board that the continuing war in Syria would upset the balance of forces in Iraq and lead to a resumption of the civil war there. Instead they blamed everything that was going wrong in Iraq on Prime Minister Nouri al-Maliki, who has a great deal to answer for but was not the root cause of Iraq's return to war. The Sunni monarchies of the Gulf were probably not so naïve and could see that aiding jihadi rebels in Syria would spill over and weaken the Shia government in Iraq


----------



## CDG (Jan 4, 2015)

pardus said:


> *Islamic State Militants In Syria Ask Twitter To 'Suggest A Way To Kill The Jordanian Pilot Pig'*
> 
> Poor bastard...



I know there's arguments to be made about national interests and all that, but more and more it feels like the right thing to do is destroy these pieces of shit as swiftly and mercilessly as possible.  No counter-insurgency, no nation-building, just raw brutality against them and anyone that doesn't actively oppose them.  Send a strong message and international opinion be damned.


----------



## Tbone (Jan 4, 2015)

CDG said:


> I know there's arguments to be made about national interests and all that, but more and more it feels like the right thing to do is destroy these pieces of shit as swiftly and mercilessly as possible.  No counter-insurgency, no nation-building, just raw brutality against them and anyone that doesn't actively oppose them.  Send a strong message and international opinion be damned.


I don't know about you, but for a while now it has just seemed "logical" to deal with them "directly". I mean, they pose a problem for a lot of countries and are the definition of evil. So why not do what it actually takes to eradicate them and do the world a favor? The priorities of this administration are so jack backwards it makes me feel stupid. We have a real chance to do some good here and yet the world leaders act as if it's  taboo to kill bad people? C'MON!!


----------



## Raptor (Jan 4, 2015)

Tbone said:


> I don't know about you, but for a while now it has just seemed "logical" to deal with them "directly". I mean, they pose a problem for a lot of countries and are the definition of evil. So why not do what it actually takes to eradicate them and do the world a favor? The priorities of this administration are so jack backwards it makes me feel stupid. We have a real chance to do some good here and yet the world leaders act as if it's  taboo to kill bad people? C'MON!!


Cause if we eradicate them, the anti-war people will bitch like always.


----------



## Tbone (Jan 5, 2015)

Raptor said:


> Cause if we eradicate them, the anti-war people will bitch like always.


I'm pretty sure they are going to be anti-whateverthemilitarydoes in any situation. I woudn't try to appease them. They can stay in their fantasy. I think the best thing we can do is to do the right thing regardless of what out-of-touch people want to spew at you. At the end of the day, nobody can argue that the world is worse off because there is no such thing as ISIS. Then again, I am probably misguided about are capability to eliminate ISIS


----------



## Raptor (Jan 5, 2015)

Tbone said:


> I'm pretty sure they are going to be anti-whateverthemilitarydoes in any situation. I woudn't try to appease them. They can stay in their fantasy. I think the best thing we can do is to do the right thing regardless of what out-of-touch people want to spew at you. At the end of the day, nobody can argue that the world is worse off because there is no such thing as ISIS. Then again, I am probably misguided about are capability to eliminate ISIS


I completely agree, unfortunately, not all the politicians do, but that's a rant for a different day.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 5, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> Kinda of relates to what I've been saying about this threat since the beginning. Underestimating and characterizing them as just another insurgency, especially because of what some people think they know about how they evolved, is incredibly naive.
> 
> We're going to be there for a long time.


 

Absolutely. Or somewhere else. Jihad mutates. One thing common about modern radical Islamic groups is that they always seem to go back to the ancient concepts, they want to resume what they believe is unfinished business, i.e., the conquest of non-Muslim lands, _(al fatah)._ The core legitimacy of any jihadist movement always comes back to a decision made right after Mohammed's death...the decision for the unlimited expansion of the territory of the Islamic state in order to establish the religion. So with that legitimacy at its core, it attracts everybody from True Believers to rapists, psychopaths, thieves, opportunists and idiots. It's not an insurgency or a revolution or a rebellion...it's salmon swimming upstream to the spawning ground.


----------



## Rapid (Jan 6, 2015)

Modern politicians don't have the balls to do anything it takes to eliminate ISIS and co. Not if they want to be elected to important positions -- or keep those positions.

Politics is a career, a gravy boat, and a path to something more lucrative. It's nearly always been that way, but now more than ever, it has very little to do with 'public service' or doing what's best for a country.


----------



## Florida173 (Jan 6, 2015)

Politics aside.. we are already engaged with ISIS...


----------



## Gunz (Jan 6, 2015)

...But politicians don't look any farther forward than the next election. Ideally, for them, any unpleasantness going on needs to be tied up in a neat package before they come up for reelection. They have big trouble thinking in terms of a decades-long committment, so generational warfare like that being waged against jihadists, or COIN ops and nation-building adventures, which require exactly that kind of long-term devotion, may never fully be resolved.


----------



## Florida173 (Jan 6, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> ...But politicians don't look any farther forward than the next election. Ideally, for them, any unpleasantness going on needs to be tied up in a neat package before they come up for reelection. They have big trouble thinking in terms of a decades-long committment, so generational warfare like that being waged against jihadists, or COIN ops and nation-building adventures, which require exactly that kind of long-term devotion, may never fully be resolved.



Like I said.. Politics has nothing to do with the stuff that is going on right now against ISIS.  There is no COIN because this isn't an insurgency.  We don't need politicians to wage war.. remember Kosovo.. we still have people there.


----------



## Rapid (Jan 6, 2015)

It's one thing to be engaged and another to be fully committed. The latter doesn't happen without the right support -- not for something on this scale. More could be done (and I don't mean repeating mistakes that were made elsewhere in the past decade).


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 6, 2015)

Rapid said:


> It's one thing to be engaged and another to be fully committed. The latter doesn't happen without the right support -- not for something on this scale. More could be done (and I don't mean repeating mistakes that were made elsewhere in the past decade).


No way in hell will the public allow us to be fully committed again.
The Iraqi's and opposition parties did such an excellent job that few people, right or left wing, would support Iraq ver 3.0


----------



## Gunz (Jan 7, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> Like I said.. Politics has nothing to do with the stuff that is going on right now against ISIS.  There is no COIN because this isn't an insurgency.  We don't need politicians to wage war.. remember Kosovo.. we still have people there.


 

Yep, I'm not arguing with you about ISIS, just a general comment about politicians, not about any specific conflict. 

I agree with your statement that we don't _need _politicians to wage war, but war _is _politics, isn't it? (Clausewitz)... And don't we still have people in most or all of our former zones of conflict? And even when they leave it up to the military professionals, there's always uncertainty about outcome. Changing public opinion. And money. Always money at the core of any venture and where there's money, there's politics.

I think political interference increases or decreases proportionately to the rate of failure or success.


----------



## Tbone (Jan 7, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> No way in hell will the public allow us to be fully committed again.
> The Iraqi's and opposition parties did such an excellent job that few people, right or left wing, would support Iraq ver 3.0


Do we have to be "fully" committed? I think there are a few options left on the table that, if used correctly, would pay huge dividends toward fighting ISIS without actually sending over everybody. If the people making decisions really wanted to make a difference, it wouldn't be hard. Execution is key (no pun intended) and we aren't doing it. Look at every non-conventional asset the DOD has at its disposal and tell me we can't defeat ISIS with a minimal footprint? As my grandad would say," YOU GOTTA GET THRIFTY, SON!"


----------



## Florida173 (Jan 8, 2015)

Tbone said:


> Do we have to be "fully" committed? I think there are a few options left on the table that, if used correctly, would pay huge dividends toward fighting ISIS without actually sending over everybody.



I think that's what the intent is now with the 3000 or so troops on the ground.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 8, 2015)

The downfall of ISIS. Taking their cigarettes away:

_"There is an escalation in the operations against the Hisbah_ [ISIS religious police]_ because they are arresting people and insulting their dignity for reasons like smoking," Observatory director Rami Abdel Rahman told AFP news agency.
The IS police force has confiscated and burned tobacco products and punished those caught smoking."_

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-30721021


----------



## Tbone (Jan 8, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> I think that's what the intent is now with the 3000 or so troops on the ground.


But my point I guess was that yes we have troops there, but I don't think there being correctly used. The strategy we're using is semi-decent, but It is being carried out in a way that shoots itself in the foot.


----------



## Tbone (Jan 8, 2015)

*they're


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 8, 2015)

Tbone said:


> But my point I guess was that yes we have troops there, but I don't think there being correctly used. The strategy we're using is semi-decent, but It is being carried out in a way that shoots itself in the foot.


What strategy would you recommend?


----------



## Florida173 (Jan 8, 2015)

When seeing stuff like this, it's very disheartening.

*Iran-Backed Militias Are Getting U.S. Weapons*
http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-08/iranbacked-militias-are-getting-us-weapons-in-iraq


> U.S. weapons intended for Iraq’s beleaguered military are winding up in the possession of the country’s Shiite militias, according to U.S. lawmakers and senior officials in the Barack Obama administration. These sources say that the Baghdad government, which was granted $1.2 billion in training and equipment aid in the omnibus spending bill passed last month,  is turning hardware over to Shiite militias that are heavily influenced by Iran and have been guilty of gross human-rights violations.


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 8, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> When seeing stuff like this, it's very disheartening.
> 
> *Iran-Backed Militias Are Getting U.S. Weapons*
> http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-08/iranbacked-militias-are-getting-us-weapons-in-iraq


Which leads one to ask, why are we backing the Iraqi government at all?
Support the Kurds, let them declare that portion of Iraq independent, then let the Iraqi's deal with ISIL on their own.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 8, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> When seeing stuff like this, it's very disheartening.
> 
> *Iran-Backed Militias Are Getting U.S. Weapons*
> http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-08/iranbacked-militias-are-getting-us-weapons-in-iraq


 
Half the stuff we give must end up in the wrong hands. It's probably factored in as spillage by the bean counters. I'll bet there are AKs in Afghanistan that shot at Americans in Vietnam. And OMG the Iranians have in- flight refueling probes on their American RH-53Ds...

It never ends...


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 8, 2015)

Jordan pilot update.  Those fuckers are being advised by "someone".  They're getting a little too slick -
_http://www.newsweek.com/isis-use-video-captured-pilot-force-jordan-halt-airstrikes-297827_


----------



## Brill (Jan 19, 2015)

Canuks mixing it up with ISIL in Iraq.  Good thing we won't be involved cuz POTUS said "no ground combat in Iraq".

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-30888344


----------



## Etype (Jan 19, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Which leads one to ask, why are we backing the Iraqi government at all?
> Support the Kurds, let them declare that portion of Iraq independent, then let the Iraqi's deal with ISIL on their own.


As long as AAH and ISIL are killing each other, we should just eat popcorn and watch.

I think it would be a sound strategy to give the Kurds a southern limit of advance, which includes Kirkuk and Mosul, and assist them in doing so.  Then allow the Arabs to duke it out and kill each other in the south.

If one side ever prevails, the winner will definitely be in a weakened state...


----------



## Florida173 (Jan 19, 2015)

Etype said:


> As long as AAH and ISIL are killing each other, we should just eat popcorn and watch.
> 
> If one side ever prevails, the winner will definitely be in a weakened state...


Reminds me of Colombia


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 19, 2015)

Etype said:


> As long as AAH and ISIL are killing each other, we should just eat popcorn and watch.
> 
> I think it would be a sound strategy to give the Kurds a southern limit of advance, which includes Kirkuk and Mosul, and assist them in doing so.  Then allow the Arabs to duke it out and kill each other in the south.
> 
> If one side ever prevails, the winner will definitely be in a weakened state...



Tell the Kurds to leave Turkey alone and we will support an independent Kurdistan (we don't care if you fuck with Iran)



Florida173 said:


> Reminds me of Colombia



Disagree, better looking women in Colombia.


----------



## Etype (Jan 22, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Tell the Kurds to leave Turkey alone and we will support an independent Kurdistan...


So you are a policy maker?  Ok, I will deliver the message.

I think the bigger reason the state dept. et al. doesn't want to see an independent Kurdistan is because that means a fractured Iraq.  A lot of hot air has been expelled from a lot of mouths paying lip service to the success and unity between the Arabs and Kurds in Iraq.


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 22, 2015)

Etype said:


> So you are a policy maker?  Ok, I will deliver the message.
> 
> I think the bigger reason the state dept. et al. doesn't want to see an independent Kurdistan is because that means a fractured Iraq.  A lot of hot air has been expelled from a lot of mouths paying lip service to the success and unity between the Arabs and Kurds in Iraq.


I wish I was a policy maker.

I agree that unity hasn't been a success, which is why I think the threat of an Kurdistan would shake the Iraqi's and Iranians up a bit.ap.

Then you only have to deal with Iraqi vs Iraqi crap.

IIRC then Sen Bidenessentially said break Iraq up.  I don't agree totally with that sentiment, but we need to see if pulling the Kurds out may be a wake up call for the other tribes.


----------



## Etype (Jan 22, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> I wish I was a policy maker.
> 
> Then you only have to deal with Iraqi vs Iraqi crap.
> 
> IIRC then Sen Bidenessentially said break Iraq up.  I don't agree totally with that sentiment, but we need to see if pulling the Kurds out may be a wake up call for the other tribes.


Iraq vs. Iran, or should we say Iraq AND Iran.

Another issue would be that some Kurds see their historic homeland as extended much farther south than what modern history credits them with.  After all, Tikirt was the birthplace of Salah al Din, who was a Kurd.


----------



## Brill (Jan 22, 2015)

Etype said:


> Another issue would be that some Kurds see their historic homeland as extended much farther south than what modern history credits them with.  After all, Tikirt was the birthplace of Salah al Din, who was a Kurd.



Is there a Kurdish desire to return to the status of the Ayyubid dynasty?  Just imagine how that would change US foreign policy in the region!  We're talking WWII-era "cooperation" with the ME states (plus a proxy to battle the IS)!!!


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 22, 2015)

I think John Kerry figured it out...(worked so well in France!)


----------



## Gunz (Jan 22, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> When seeing stuff like this, it's very disheartening.
> 
> *Iran-Backed Militias Are Getting U.S. Weapons*
> http://www.bloombergview.com/articles/2015-01-08/iranbacked-militias-are-getting-us-weapons-in-iraq


 

The spread of Iran-backed militias are more disheartening to me now than the origin of their weapons. It seems to me that Iran is destined to become _the _regional power in the ME, supplanting us and everybody else. Apparently the Iranians are rapidly expanding their influence throughout Iraq and may, in the not too distant future, have a considerable degree of control there. Saddam is no longer a threat. The Taliban are occupied elsewhere. Syria's in turmoil, so is Yemen. Iran is stable, powerful and perhaps on the verge of weaponized nukes. Does anyone agree with this?


----------



## Totentanz (Jan 22, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> The spread of Iran-backed militias are more disheartening to me now than the origin of their weapons. It seems to me that Iran is destined to become _the _regional power in the ME, supplanting us and everybody else. Apparently the Iranians are rapidly expanding their influence throughout Iraq and may, in the not too distant future, have a considerable degree of control there. Saddam is no longer a threat. The Taliban are occupied elsewhere. Syria's in turmoil, so is Yemen. Iran is stable, powerful and perhaps on the verge of weaponized nukes. Does anyone agree with this?



It was a foreseeable outcome - a Shia government in a country where a) Shi'ites are the minority and b) that used to be an enemy (ie the friendly faction has just taken over) on the border of Iran was going to not only accept Iranian help, but likely to pursue it as an ideologically-aligned friendly government.  It would be akin to Cuba being overtaken by a pro-western movement during the Cold War - they would have immediately sought the help of the US and we would have given it.  None of this makes Iran any less of an enemy.

Stable?  Debatable.  Iran has a HUGE amount of tension between the 18-35 voting block (35 and under comprise more than half the population) and the fundamentalists who overthrew the Shah in 1979.  They're doing better than many in the CENTCOM AOR, but they have some significant internal issues to resolve.  As with everything else, basic services (namely power and water) are also causing issues between "Yusuf the Plumber" and the powers that be.

Iran stands in a good position to exploit the current situation (and they DEFINITELY don't want to see a violent Sunni caliphate sitting on their western border), but their ability to emerge as a world power (and dominate the region) rests entirely on how well the government - namely the IRGC, Supreme Leader, and Assembly of Experts, along with the other government entities - manages to handle how Iran interacts with the modern world and the younger elements of their nation.


----------



## RackMaster (Jan 22, 2015)

Well there's an increase in political bullshit over our guys firing back at the goat fuckers that fired on our guys.  So the Prime Minister responded today...



> "This is a robust mission ... if those guys fire at us we're going to fire back and we're going to kill them, just like our guys did, and we're very proud of the job they're doing in Iraq," he told reporters in St. Catharines, Ontario.
> 
> http://www.dailymail.co.uk/wires/re...Iraq-militants-attack-Canadian-troops-PM.html


----------



## racing_kitty (Jan 22, 2015)

Apparently the media has gotten so used to covering the US rolling over and making excuses for everything that they weren't expecting someone to stand FOR shooting those bastards in the face.


----------



## Florida173 (Jan 22, 2015)

RackMaster said:


> Well there's an increase in political bullshit over our guys firing back at the goat fuckers that fired on our guys.  So the Prime Minister responded today...



I was actually talking about just this with my CANSOF LNO today.. He seems to think that it's mostly just political though and that most of the population are all about killing ISIL.


----------



## RackMaster (Jan 22, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> I was actually talking about just this with my CANSOF LNO today.. He seems to think that it's mostly just political though and that most of the population are all about killing ISIL.



Oh it is.  The people for the most part are all for killing all those fuckers.  There's an election coming this year and the other parties are looking for anyway to get ahead.


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## DA SWO (Jan 22, 2015)

Kurds seem to be doing OK.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/th...al-road-in-the-push-toward-mosul-a7d933d880d5


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## Rapid (Jan 23, 2015)

*ISIS Suffers Heaviest Defeat in Iraq in a Single Day*

Over the last 24 hours, ISIS has been defeated in every front in Iraq in unprecedented way. From Mosul to the north to Anbar to the west and Diyala to the east, Iraqi government forces, Shiite militias, Sunni tribes and Kurdish forces were all victorious in battle.


http://finance.yahoo.com/news/isis-suffers-heaviest-defeat-iraq-101500786.html


Suuuuck it!


----------



## Gunz (Jan 23, 2015)

Nothing like a good cup of coffee in the morning and high EKIA body count. And Bravo Zulu, Canadian SOF.


----------



## Etype (Jan 24, 2015)

RackMaster said:


> Oh it is.  The people for the most part are all for killing all those fuckers.  There's an election coming this year and the other parties are looking for anyway to get ahead.


If the people were all for killing IS, then it wouldn't be a problem.

It's the same with the Taliban- they DO have support and people DO favor them in the regions they control.  Don't for a second think that Sunni Arabs in Iraq are not ready for a change.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 24, 2015)

Totentanz said:


> ...Stable?  Debatable.  Iran has a HUGE amount of tension between the 18-35 voting block (35 and under comprise more than half the population) and the fundamentalists who overthrew the Shah in 1979.  They're doing better than many in the CENTCOM AOR, but they have some significant internal issues to resolve...


 
That's true, good point. And I believe there was, or is, some pie-in-the-sky hope that exposure to social media will somehow ignite an Arab Spring in Iran among that 35 and under demographic. But the Iranian government, as I understand it, has been pretty good at clamping the lid on that kind of interaction.

Likewise, when Clinton was POTUS the going theory among the same kind of idealists was that if you expose China to Western capitalism, i.e. trade,  human rights and democracy would naturally follow.  So far, that hasn't exactly worked out, and judging by the amount of cheap Chinese shit in my house, that deal kind of backfired.

I don't see social media or even tech-media igniting another Iranian revolution. And the West is making a terrible mistake thinking Iran's nuclear program is intended for peaceful energy. I suspect Netanyahu will make that point when he addresses a joint session of Congress upcoming. If all you want is a reactor, you invite foreign investment and foreign experts in and poof pretty soon you have a powerplant. You do it in the open, you don't spend the kind of effort Iran has spent on trying to hide and cloak every aspect of their nuclear program.

As Iran fights ISIS and makes inroads through its militias and spreads political influence through Iraq and Syria, it draws physically closer to Israel. I think Netanyahu is very concerned about this.


----------



## Totentanz (Jan 24, 2015)

Igniting a revolution IS pie in the sky.  The movements in Iran will be on the strategic, not tactical level.  The exposure to social media isn't going to be the instant-gratification panacea our current culture likes so much.  But it has exposed that voting block to outside thoughts and ideas (not necessarily Western thoughts and ideas, and they don't have to be) that scare the current establishment.  This isn't going to be a giant "ooh, democracy, let's get right on that".  But it has forced the government to acknowledge and address the desire of Iranian youth to do things like 1) engage the rest of the world (via social media), 2) access Western/outside entertainment 3) shift social norms such as apparel, public behavior, and so forth and so on.

To give you an example, Facebook has been banned for quite a while, but during the last presidential election, all candidates (to include the fundamentalists, not just the progressives, and yes "progressive" is a relative term) had both Facebook and Twitter accounts.  It's a small change, but a telling one when they're forced to violate their own rules to keep up with the populace.

So no, Iranian change won't be quick, but it is occurring, and in ways the government is having a hard time controlling.

On Israel - I'm really not sure how many people ACTUALLY want to nuke Israel.  Nuclear strike capability, sure (that brings the regional/global standing we've been talking about, and domestically makes the government look good/competent), but IMO, while there are some who would eliminate the Israelis, for a LOT of Iranian politicians, it's more about having a common enemy for your Two Minutes Hate in the state-controlled messaging than it is about an actual ideology.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 24, 2015)

Being reported...(not confirmed)...that one of the Japanese hostages has been murdered.

"Fucking cock suckers"

http://fxn.ws/1BnIuYF


----------



## Gunz (Jan 24, 2015)

Given the improbability of escape, rescue or ransom, becoming a hostage of these sadistic fucks is an almost guaranteed death sentence. On the other hand, if you go around sawing people's heads off you're not gonna make any friends and payback, eventually, will be a painful motherfucker. Let's hope it comes sooner rather than later.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 27, 2015)

First update I've seen on the Jordanian pilot in a while...looks like he and the other Japanese hostage are fucked.  One thing about ISIS, if they say they are going to kill someone in 24 hours, they are going to kill someone in 24 hours.
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/0...nd-jordanian-hostages-in-new-online-messages/


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 30, 2015)

Hmmm...Did Jordon just pulled ISIS's punk-card?

*Jordan 'says it will hang its Islamic State prisoners' if pilot dies - *

The reported warning came after a sunset deadline for a possible prisoner swap passed with no clue about whether Japanese journlist Kenji Goto and pilot Muath al-Kaseasbeh were alive. 

*Read full article*


----------



## racing_kitty (Jan 30, 2015)

Reading the comments on that story (like a fool idiot), I was appalled at how many people I saw who actually think this was a terrible idea on Jordan's part. "Eeeewww, no, don't do it! Don't be like ISIS! Execution is always wrong." Never have I seen wholesale ignorance of a culture in such stark relief before.


----------



## pardus (Jan 30, 2015)

ISIS isn't going to give two fucks if Jordan executes their guys. I like Jordan's thinking though.


----------



## Grunt (Jan 30, 2015)

racing_kitty said:


> ... Never have I seen wholesale ignorance of a culture in such stark relief before.



One of the worst parts about it is that it is "willful" ignorance. Many don't spend any time looking into the matter themselves. They simply take what is spoonfed them and rapidly digest it as fact.


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## DA SWO (Jan 30, 2015)

I disagree with the hanging, they should cut her head off with a chainsaw and drop her into a pig trough for final disposition.
That might get ISIL's attention.
Then let ISIL know that is the fate of anymore members caught (then run a few cross-border raids to pick up additional pig-feed material).


----------



## LimaOscarSierraTango (Jan 30, 2015)

pardus said:


> ISIS isn't going to give two fucks if Jordan executes their guys. I like Jordan's thinking though.



Good point.  There are reports of them killing their own guys.  Jordan is doing what a lot of other countries need to be doing, sacking up.  I hope they follow though if the threat doesn't work.


----------



## racing_kitty (Jan 30, 2015)

If I were Jordan, I'd go with a scorched earth follow-through.  Culturally speaking, not impossible.  Highly, highly improbable, though, as that would require spinning up an army to invade what are supposed to be sovereign nations.  However, they could mount a most bloodthirsty defense of the kingdom of Jordan that could possibly give IS pause.  

Jordan isn't anywhere near as concerned with politically correct optics as any of the western nations.  POTUS might weigh in with a statement, most likely disagreeing with that course of action, but his words don't have a lot of weight over in that corner of the world as it is.  Should Jordan enter into combat with IS, and they were to fight against the rising caliphate within the bounds of Abdullah's kingdom, I'd be willing to bet the farm that not the first prisoner would survive capture on the battlefield, and nary the first indictment of "war crimes" would be levied against Jordan.  

After all, in the politically-correct hierarchy, both of them occupy the same level of protected status in the western perception of "protected class."


----------



## Brill (Jan 30, 2015)

racing_kitty said:


> Reading the comments on that story (like a fool idiot), I was appalled at how many people I saw who actually think this was a terrible idea on Jordan's part. "Eeeewww, no, don't do it! Don't be like ISIS! Execution is always wrong." Never have I seen wholesale ignorance of a culture in such stark relief before.



This pretty much sums up that line of thinking:

http://foreignpolicy.com/2015/01/27/the-text-of-general-flynns-speech/

"Above and beyond these pressing challenges, the advent of global internet connectivity and mobile devices is now providing billions of people — including our adversaries — with the ability to learn, plan, communicate, and fight with a precision, speed, and security formerly only enjoyed by states.

Furthermore, virtually any ideology — no matter how frightening or outrageous — is now able to proliferate around the world at the stroke of a key.

*There are many sincere people in our government who, frankly, are paralyzed by this complexity and so actively choose or passively accept a defensive posture — reasoning that passivity is less likely to provoke our enemies and that specific threats can simply be anticipated, discovered, countered, or recovered from.*


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 31, 2015)

Well damn...the killed the 2nd Japanese reporter.
http://t.co/aKMlgge9ec

No word on the Jordanian pilot


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## Kraut783 (Jan 31, 2015)

News is saying ISIS has claimed to have beheaded the 2nd Japanese hostage.....RIP, your hell is over.


http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/is...beheading-japanese-hostage-kenji-goto-n295201

*heh...good timing Ooh-Rah


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 31, 2015)

For his sake...I hope that pilot is long dead.


----------



## Marine0311 (Jan 31, 2015)

FFS. RIP to them both.

Bomb these guys to the depths of HELL.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 31, 2015)

In other news...the White House "strongly condemned ISIS" ... That'll show em'


----------



## racing_kitty (Jan 31, 2015)

I was just about to post this, myself.  Fair winds to the Japanese hostage.

I notice that they haven't released anything about the Jordanian pilot they're holding.  Perhaps it's because they are weighing the odds that Abdullah is serious, and just exactly what kind of losses are they willing to sustain in a protracted battle with Jordan?  Yes, that's speculation on my part.

While I hope that this awakens the long dormant inner samurai in the Japanese, thereby unleashing the kind of sadistic fury not seen since the 1930's in the Pacific rim, I know that won't happen.  There will just be another sternly worded letter or two directed at self-professed barbarians who value pig shit above our words.


----------



## Grunt (Jan 31, 2015)

Realistically, those sacks of pus aren't interested in negotiating with anyone for anything. They simply enjoy being bullies and doing whatever it is they want to do with impunity. Up to this point, they are doing just that.

Like I have said before, they simply need to be eradicated. They don't understand anything else...nor do they want to.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jan 31, 2015)

Agoge said:


> Realistically, those sacks of puss aren't interested in negotiating with anyone for anything. They simply enjoy being bullies and doing whatever it is they want to do with impunity.



Yep, and using the media for headlines and propaganda.  As we have said before here, if ISIS says they are going to kill a hostage, they are going to do.....but like to play the media for the drama and headlines.


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 2, 2015)

Ladies and gentlemen, Japan is pissed. PM Shinzo Abe has publicly called for revenge; a first for post-WWII pacifist Japan. 



> The crisis also comes at a crucial moment in Japan’s modern history. Since taking office two years ago, Mr. Abe, a strong-willed conservative, has tried to push his nation into shedding the passive brand of pacifism that it repentantly embraced after defeat in World War II, and playing a more active role in world events. Analysts and former diplomats say the stark savagery of the killings will be an important test of how ready Japan really is to step onto the global stage.
> 
> The question, analysts and diplomats say, is whether the trauma of the killings will drain Japan’s will to seek a higher international profile, or stiffen its resolve



The quote above is the $64 question. I'd like to see the sleeping samurai awakened, and Japan wreak the kind of havoc that would make Nanking look like Christmas at Disney World. But I know that's rather far fetched. Still, this is something given how Japan has conducted itself over the post-war years.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 2, 2015)

Cutting captives' heads off?  Well, that's certainly something Japan has experience with.

...but that was a long time ago, and it doesn't lessen the hideousness of what happened to these two citizens.  I hope they do take some type of meaningful action against ISIS but I doubt they will.  At the end of the day this is something that gets people fired up for a week or so, that is useful politically, but the realities, risks, and expense of becoming meaningful engaged will, in my opinion, forestall anything kinetic.

The one exception I could see is if they somehow managed to send some of their SDF fighters to participate in the air campaign, which would not only be a meaningful political gesture but would also be pretty useful militarily.


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 2, 2015)

I want to see Japan airlift Godzilla and Mothra into Iraq.  Take that Daesh Bitches!


----------



## pardus (Feb 2, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> Cutting captives' heads off?  Well, that's certainly something Japan has experience with.
> 
> ...but that was a long time ago, and it doesn't lessen the hideousness of what happened to these two citizens.  I hope they do take some type of meaningful action against ISIS but I doubt they will.  At the end of the day this is something that gets people fired up for a week or so, that is useful politically, but the realities, risks, and expense of becoming meaningful engaged will, in my opinion, forestall anything kinetic.
> 
> The one exception I could see is if they somehow managed to send some of their SDF fighters to participate in the air campaign, which would not only be a meaningful political gesture but would also be pretty useful militarily.




Yes there is a certain irony to this...

 




This is interesting...

* Japan's pacifist constitution: After 70 years, nation changes the rules so it can go to war *


----------



## AWP (Feb 2, 2015)

My grandfathers were Seabees in WWII and the Japanese list of atrocities, worse still they refuse to accept them, is long and "distinguished." Regardless, I'd honestly like nothing more than to hear they were sending some aircraft to execute a 9-line or two. AEW or tankers are good, but Climb Mount Niitaka for this one. Even 6 or 8 F-2's would be great.


----------



## pardus (Feb 2, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> My grandfathers were Seabees in WWII and the Japanese list of atrocities,* worse still they refuse to accept them,* is long and "distinguished." Regardless, I'd honestly like nothing more than to hear they were sending some aircraft to execute a 9-line or two. AEW or tankers are good, but Climb Mount Niitaka for this one. Even 6 or 8 F-2's would be great.



That is what pisses me off so much about it. They were fucking savages and now they are covering it up.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 3, 2015)

Pilot is dead. 

They fucking burned him. 

They. Fucking. Burned. Him. 

http://abcn.ws/1BZ8EBb


----------



## Rapid (Feb 3, 2015)

Savages. Savages never change.


----------



## pardus (Feb 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Pilot is dead.
> 
> They fucking burned him.
> 
> ...



I just saw this on the news, I also saw a couple of photos of them burning him to death. Horrific to say the least. 

I want to kill every last one of those savages!


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Pilot is dead.
> 
> They fucking burned him.
> 
> ...


Jordan needs to behead the bitch and post a video for the world to see (especially ISIS and their followers).


----------



## CDG (Feb 3, 2015)

Jesus christ..... What a horrible way to go.  RIP to the pilot.  I would love to get the chance to use some A-10s against these fucks.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 3, 2015)

Have to wonder how long he's been dead?  Unless they never intended to release him in the first place, they must have fucked up and killed him too soon.

I applaud Jordan for not giving in and releasing her without proof-of-life.  It will be interesting to see what this does to the poltical will there.  They were prepared for a beheading, this fire shit is notching it up a whole other level.

Fuck.  I made the mistake on clicking a link to get more details.  I wish I hadn't.  No pics here, but a tragic description.  Click at own risk: (from Daily Mail)


----------



## medicchick (Feb 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> *Have to wonder how long he's been dead?*  Unless they never intended to release him in the first place, they must have fucked up and killed him too soon.
> 
> I applaud Jordan for not giving in and releasing her without proof-of-life.  It will be interesting to see what this does to the poltical will there.  They were prepared for a beheading, this fire shit is notching it up a whole other level.
> 
> Fuck.  I made the mistake on clicking a link to get more details.  I wish I hadn't.  No pics here, but a tragic description.  Click at own risk: (from Daily Mail)



I've read several news reports now that he was killed early last month.


----------



## Poccington (Feb 3, 2015)

That is fucking grim.

That poor bastard. RIP.


----------



## BloodStripe (Feb 3, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Jordan needs to behead the bitch and post a video for the world to see (especially ISIS and their followers).



I must disagree. Yes, kill the fucker they have,but don't post a video of it.


----------



## AWP (Feb 3, 2015)

As horrific as all of this is, I have to wonder if these assholes have a plan or if this is just a shallow "F you" to Jordan and the world?

Blue Skies.


----------



## BloodStripe (Feb 3, 2015)

http://allenwestrepublic.com/2015/0...ned-to-swap-with-isis-to-be-executed-tonight/

According to this, Jordan will be conducting the execution tonight.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Pilot is dead.
> 
> They fucking burned him.
> 
> ...


 

RIP to this brave man and I hope Jordan incinerates some of these motherfuckers in return.


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 3, 2015)

RIP Sir!  May those fucking savages burn in hell!


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 3, 2015)

Jordan needs to show the bitch getting sodomized by a pig, then hack her into tiny pieces on national television.  Why?  Because Jordan is a Middle Eastern Muslim nation.  It is bigotry and discrimination to expect them to uphold the same standards of nonbarbaric behavior as the evil, colonial powers of the Western world.


Go Jordan!


----------



## Queeg (Feb 3, 2015)

#FreeHaircutsForEveryone #JustALittleOffTheTopPlease


----------



## Grunt (Feb 3, 2015)

Personally, I don't think they ever planned on releasing any of their hostages. If they were paid by Japan, in their thinking...good for them, we made $200 million. Whether paid or not...they would have probably killed them anyway.

They aren't answering to anyone and are doing exactly what they want...when they want...with no recourse.


----------



## AWP (Feb 3, 2015)

I just hope the world will finally wake up and realize this isn't an Iraqi or Syrian or US problem...it is everyone's problem and everyone needs to contribute to a solution. That solution should not, IMO, include schools or aid packages or concessions of any kind. To paraphrase, there should be killing until the score is paid.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 3, 2015)

Shepard Smith of FOX News with an excellent description of the video here:

http://video.foxnews.com/v/403...ilot/?#sp=show-clips

This is about 11 minutes long, but it is well worth the time.  He does not show it, but was pretty graphic in his description.


----------



## busdriver (Feb 3, 2015)

Some people just need to die.  My emotional response is completely irrational and probably counter-productive.  Some people just need to die.


----------



## Kraut783 (Feb 3, 2015)

Lieutenant Moaz al-Kassasbeh, Rest in Peace Sir......blue skies.


----------



## Kraut783 (Feb 3, 2015)

Hopefully, some have learned.....you cannot negotiate with these people, ever.




* "these people" refer to the Islamic State, ISIS. ISIL, Islamic extremist, terrorist...etc.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 3, 2015)

Well...wow.  Not often I find myself agreeing with Piers Morgan.

Link


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Well...wow.  Not often I find myself agreeing with Piers Morgan.
> 
> Link



I think that's a first for me, agreeing with Morgan.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 3, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Jordan needs to behead the bitch and post a video for the world to see (especially ISIS and their followers).



The problem is, what good would it do? These ummm..."I'm out of adjectives to describe these people"...would simply dance and celebrate her martyrdom.


----------



## CDG (Feb 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> The problem is, what good would it do? These ummm..."I'm out of adjectives to describe these people"...would simply dance and celebrate her martyrdom.



It would send a sign that people are finally realizing the threat and aren't going to keep playing these fucking political games.  They may celebrate her martyrdom, but they'll also realize it marks a change in direction.  If they don't, then that's all the better.


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> The problem is, what good would it do? These ummm..."I'm out of adjectives to describe these people"...would simply dance and celebrate her martyrdom.



While they put a higher value on death in calling her a martyr, she will not have taken any of the filthy kaffir with her on her trip to the bowels of hell.  Jordan would be well served in rubbing that little tidbit in as they dispatch the fucking cunt, in hopes that it will stick in IS's collective craw.  Denigrate her death, denigrate her life, and be prepared to engage in the kind of bloodthirsty, barbaric battle that the West is incapable of fighting.


----------



## Kraut783 (Feb 3, 2015)

So.....now can we bring back carpet bombing?

And I mean old school WWII style carpet bombing, waste the country, it's a loss anyway.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 3, 2015)

My wife suggests putting the ISIS Prisoners into a pen with wild hogs, hogs that haven't been fed in a few days. Put the video on-line and make sure ISIS understands.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 3, 2015)

The full video if you are so inclined - (link is from Fox News)

LINK


----------



## AWP (Feb 3, 2015)

First Morgan calls Chris Kyle a hero and then he writes that column? It must be opposite year.


----------



## CDG (Feb 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> The full video if you are so inclined - (link is from Fox News)
> 
> LINK



Holy shit........


----------



## medicchick (Feb 3, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> First Morgan calls Chris Kyle a hero and then he writes that column? It must be opposite year.


I think he quite drinking the Koolaid they serve there.


----------



## Grunt (Feb 3, 2015)

medicchick said:


> I think he quite drinking the Koolaid they serve there.



I'm not convinced he has become enlightened as of yet...after all, a broken clock is right twice in a 24 hour period.:-"

But, with that said, he is right.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 3, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> First Morgan calls Chris Kyle a hero and then he writes that column? It must be opposite year.


All that time hanging with Donald Trump is beginning to rub off on him.


----------



## pardus (Feb 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Well...wow.  Not often I find myself agreeing with Piers Morgan.
> 
> Link



I don't. I don't because he's a bit fucking late to the bandwagon. "We" have been warning liberals for many years that this is the logical result of taking our foot off the neck of these savage pricks.
Don't forget that he wants to disarm you so you can be an easy target for terrorists and criminals in our own country.
Fuck Morgan*.



*good start though.


----------



## Kraut783 (Feb 3, 2015)

CDG said:


> Holy shit........



Holy Hell......I can't even imagine.....


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 3, 2015)

When Admiral Bill Halsey sailed into Pearl Harbor on the bridge of the Enterprise the day after the attack he remarked, "_Before we're through with them, the Japanese language will be spoken only in Hell!_" 

I wish the good Admiral was making decisions today.


----------



## BloodStripe (Feb 3, 2015)

Jordan did it. Good for them.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2015/02/03/islamic-state-jordanian-pilot/22798055/


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 3, 2015)

It's a start.


----------



## MilkTruckCoPilot (Feb 4, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> The full video if you are so inclined - (link is from Fox News)
> 
> LINK



RIP Lt. Muath al-Kaseasbeth

On an off note, as a film major I couldn't stop thinking of how good the quality of the video is. If you didn't know any better, you would think you were watching  a movie.


----------



## medicchick (Feb 4, 2015)

Nice, executed by hanging.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 4, 2015)

Two down. Untold thousand to go.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 4, 2015)

pardus said:


> I don't. I don't because he's a bit fucking late to the bandwagon. "We" have been warning liberals for many years that this is the logical result of taking our foot off the neck of these savage pricks.
> Don't forget that he wants to disarm you so you can be an easy target for terrorists and criminals in our own country.
> Fuck Morgan*....


 
It's pretty fucking sad it takes something insanely vivid like this (or, say, the destruction of the World Trade Center) for liberals to finally comprehend reality. It takes Jack Black kicking their dog off the bridge.


----------



## AWP (Feb 4, 2015)

Could anyone blame Jordan if it rolled an armored Corps into Iraq or Syria?

Then there's this and I hope it is true:
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...dullah-quotes-clint-eastwood-to-us-lawmakers/



> "He's angry," Hunter said of the king. "They're starting more sorties tomorrow than they've ever had. They're starting tomorrow. And he said, 'The only problem we're going to have is running out of fuel and bullets.'"


----------



## pardus (Feb 4, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Could anyone blame Jordan if it rolled an armored Corps into Iraq or Syria?
> 
> Then there's this and I hope it is true:
> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...dullah-quotes-clint-eastwood-to-us-lawmakers/



I would be happy as fuck if Jordan rolled in and kicked some ass.


----------



## AWP (Feb 4, 2015)

pardus said:


> I would be happy as fuck if Jordan rolled in and kicked some ass.


 
Like Oprah at a buffet.

"You get a bullet and you get a bullet and you get a bullet.....everybody gets a bullet!"


----------



## Gunz (Feb 4, 2015)

I just can't imagine defeating a well-organized, well-financed enemy now at an estimated 30-50,000, without a robust coordinated land campaign.


----------



## LimaOscarSierraTango (Feb 4, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Savages. Savages never change.



I would have to disagree.  As Pardus mentioned, Japan changed after WWII.  They were doing similar back then to what ISIS is doing now.


----------



## AWP (Feb 4, 2015)

LimaOscarSierraTango said:


> I would have to disagree.  As Pardus mentioned, Japan changed after WWII.  They were doing similar back then to what ISIS is doing now.


 
Look what it took and they still won't acknowledge many of the atrocities. We'd have to rain utter destruction on a majority of the Muslim community, all 1.6 billion, to have the same effect. "Make Iraq look like an appetizer" type of destruction.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 4, 2015)

I hate this story because the Columbus Dispatch is all but calling these disillusioned terrorists, heroes for trying to flee.  Fuck them - 

LINK 

_TUNIS, Tunisia — In Tunis, Ghaith stands furtively on a street corner, his face masked by a hoodie, his tense eyes scanning the crowd for any hint of Islamic State militants.

He chain-smokes as he describes the indiscriminate killing, the abuse of female recruits, the discomfort of a life where meals were little more than bread and cheese or oil. He recounts the knife held to his throat by fellow fighters who demanded he recite a particular Quranic verse on Islamic warfare to prove himself.

“It was totally different from what they said jihad would be like,” said Ghaith, who asked to be identified by only his first name for fear of being killed.

Ghaith eventually surrendered to Syrian soldiers._


----------



## LimaOscarSierraTango (Feb 4, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Look what it took and they still won't acknowledge many of the atrocities. We'd have to rain utter destruction on a majority of the Muslim community, all 1.6 billion, to have the same effect. "Make Iraq look like an appetizer" type of destruction.



Agreed.  

I was focusing on the "once a savage, always a savage" comment.  The Japanese were considered savages back then with some of the things they had done.  They are not the same now as back then.


----------



## JBS (Feb 4, 2015)

Monkey savages that deserve nothing more than to be treated like the virus scourge upon humanity that they are.

In principle I do not agree with Jordan's reaction, as executing prisoners- even condemned ones- in response to an enemy is not the civilized response.

We are all a half step away from becoming what we hate; it's easy to feel like we're on the verge of being sucked into what they are.


----------



## AWP (Feb 4, 2015)

LimaOscarSierraTango said:


> Agreed.
> 
> I was focusing on the "once a savage, always a savage" comment.  The Japanese were considered savages back then with some of the things they had done.  They are not the same now as back then.


 
I totally agree, but the level of destruction required is "unacceptable" in today's world, hence why I think they won't change. For a people to change you have to bring them to their knees, one heartbeat away from a flatline, and this "civilized" world in which we live believes that level of violence isn't necessary; history tells us otherwise.


----------



## busdriver (Feb 4, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> I've read that the Kurds are complaining that CAS is not there, that they are engaging enemy in the open and we're bombing empty buildings or oil refineries.


There are huge problems with knowing where friendly forces are at any given point in time (all those factions you mentioned).  There is also more than just CAS going on, and the whole thing is much more complex than a JTAC co-located with friendlies on the ground calling in a strike OEF style.  It's telling that they aren't conducting large conventional movements with tanks and APCs out in the open anymore; and while probably half of Kobani is seriously fucked up, bombing plus the Kurds held Daesh off.  

All that said, I think your larger point is correct; re-taking land is going to need something different than what we're doing now.  Given the Sunni/Shia problems of dis-trust I'm not sure how much real cooperation we'll ever get among the various players.


----------



## Rapid (Feb 4, 2015)

LimaOscarSierraTango said:


> I would have to disagree.  As Pardus mentioned, Japan changed after WWII.  They were doing similar back then to what ISIS is doing now.



It's not really comparable. Japan was pounded into submission and that was in a different era. They then had the opportunity to rebuild and adapt to more 'Western' values. Plus they didn't have Islamic fanaticism to keep up any kind of resistance. Savages never change by themselves. You beat the savage out of savages. But since Westerners have become a bunch of coddled pussies, we don't have the stomach to give out beatings anymore.

Which brings me to one of my favorite quotes:
_
"He must walk warily and fearlessly, and while he should never brawl if he can avoid it, he must be ready to hit hard if the need arises. Let him remember...that the unforgivable crime is soft hitting. Do not hit at all if it can be avoided, but never hit softly."_


----------



## Brill (Feb 4, 2015)

busdriver said:


> There are huge problems with knowing where friendly forces are at any given point in time (all those factions you mentioned).  There is also more than just CAS going on, and the whole thing is much more complex than a JTAC co-located with friendlies on the ground calling in a strike OEF style.  It's telling that they aren't conducting large conventional movements with tanks and APCs out in the open anymore; and while probably half of Kobani is seriously fucked up, bombing plus the Kurds held Daesh off.
> 
> All that said, I think your larger point is correct; re-taking land is going to need something different than what we're doing now.  Given the Sunni/Shia problems of dis-trust I'm not sure how much real cooperation we'll ever get among the various players.



They could carpet bomb Ar Raqqah, where there aren't any friendlies.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 4, 2015)

Something has been bugging me for a while and I've not asked because I've been trying to figure out a way to pose this without asking anyone to violate OPSEC in answering it, but I don't know how.  So here's my question, answer if you "can":

if it has been a US pilot who had gone down, would we have been in a position to save him before he fell into enemy hands?  Carrying it one step forward, could we have gotten to the Jordan pilot if given the order?  And if so, why wouldn't we have been given that order?


----------



## LimaOscarSierraTango (Feb 4, 2015)

Rapid said:


> It's not really comparable. Japan was pounded into submission and that was in a different era. They then had the opportunity to rebuild and adapt to more 'Western' values. Plus they didn't have Islamic fanaticism to keep up any kind of resistance. Savages never change by themselves. You beat the savage out of savages. But since Westerners have become a bunch of coddled pussies, we don't have the stomach to give out beatings anymore.
> 
> Which brings me to one of my favorite quotes:
> _
> "He must walk warily and fearlessly, and while he should never brawl if he can avoid it, he must be ready to hit hard if the need arises. Let him remember...that the unforgivable crime is soft hitting. Do not hit at all if it can be avoided, but never hit softly."_



Thanks for the clarification.  I took your original post as a generalization.


----------



## busdriver (Feb 4, 2015)

Just watched Rep Gabbard talk about some of the issues, looked her up:  Army Guard officer, Democratic Rep from Hawaii, and has this to say about the larger effort: It's about radical Islamic ideology.

Thought you guys might enjoy, a young congressman who doesn't seem to be afraid to tell it like she see's it.


----------



## Viper1 (Feb 4, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Something has been bugging me for a while and I've not asked because I've been trying to figure out a way to pose this without asking anyone to violate OPSEC in answering it, but I don't know how.  So here's my question, answer if you "can":
> 
> if it has been a US pilot who had gone down, would we have been in a position to save him before he fell into enemy hands?  Carrying it one step forward, could we have gotten to the Jordan pilot if given the order?  And if so, why wouldn't we have been given that order?



I'll answer this as best I can.  A cornerstone nee the foundation of success is timely and accurate information.  It sounds easy but getting it is often difficult.  The world is a big place and as our enemies have proven before, you can hide from the eye in the sky, be it drone or other aircraft.  In order to save the guy, we would need to know where he actually is.  

Example: Someone can tell you I'm at my house.  The information is 5-6 hours old by the time you hear it, it gets analyzed, disseminated, etc. By the time you get approval, authority, move on to get me at my house, I might be five states away in any direction, possibly even out of the country, and that's if I'm in a car.  The only way you can get updates on where I went is through talking with my neighbors...*and therein lies the rub.*


----------



## Viper1 (Feb 4, 2015)

busdriver said:


> Just watched Rep Gabbard talk about some of the issues, looked her up:  Army Guard officer, Democratic Rep from Hawaii, and has this to say about the larger effort: It's about radical Islamic ideology.
> 
> Thought you guys might enjoy, a young congressman who doesn't seem to be afraid to tell it like she see's it.



Radical islam maybe but then there is this: http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_slat...ge_says_captors_did_not_discuss_religion.html

If there goal is political primacy (which I assess it is given they want a State of their own to govern, albeit religiously), then this should make it easier for the gloves to come off and an actual, bonafide, declaration of war to occur.  An actual congressional, legal declaration would solve a lot of problems.


----------



## busdriver (Feb 4, 2015)

lindy said:


> They could carpet bomb Ar Raqqah, where there aren't any friendlies.


That was my first gut response to the video of the Jordanian pilot: we've got a bunch of CBU that will be OBE in a couple years, so let's dump it all on Raqqah.  Then I actually thought about it, there has got to be plenty of people in that city that aren't assholes, they're just doing what they have to do to get by.  Aside from the fact that our population would never support total war on that level short of an existential threat (even then I doubt it), do we really want to go down that path just because we're seriously pissed off?  Is that kind of response exactly what Daesh wants?  Would we be playing into their recruiting and media campaign plan?  Believe me, these assholes are extremely media savvy.  This atrocity may have been their hail Mary, I don't know but I don't think carpet bombing a city actually gets us anything strategically.  The message that sends to the world is that we're all the same.


----------



## busdriver (Feb 4, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> If there goal is political primacy (which I assess it is given they want a State of their own to govern, albeit religiously), then this should make it easier for the gloves to come off and an actual, bonafide, declaration of war to occur.  An actual congressional, legal declaration would solve a lot of problems.


No doubt, but before we can declare war on a nation, we have to acknowledge that said nation exists.  So our declaration actually give some semblance of legitimacy to Daesh.  It begs the question of what constitutes a nation-state in the modern world?


----------



## Viper1 (Feb 4, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Could anyone blame Jordan if it rolled an armored Corps into Iraq or Syria?
> 
> Then there's this and I hope it is true:
> http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...dullah-quotes-clint-eastwood-to-us-lawmakers/


 
Given Jordan's extremely tenuous relationship with Syria going back to the 1970's, if the Jordanian king actually acted on this rhetoric, if might literally change the region as we know it.  It would be game on.


----------



## Viper1 (Feb 4, 2015)

busdriver said:


> No doubt, but before we can declare war on a nation, we have to acknowledge that said nation exists.  So our declaration actually give some semblance of legitimacy to Daesh.  It begs the question of what constitutes a nation-state in the modern world?



Answer: International and overwhelming legal recognition by a majority of states within the UN.  Example: We don't recognize the state of Palestine, but other Arab countries do.  The UN has them in a special observer status so they can have a rep at the UN but no voting or veto rights.


----------



## Kraut783 (Feb 4, 2015)

MilkTruckCoPilot said:


> RIP Lt. Muath al-Kaseasbeth
> 
> On an off note, as a film major I couldn't stop thinking of how good the quality of the video is. If you didn't know any better, you would think you were watching  a movie.



Yes, their stuff is surprising well done.


----------



## busdriver (Feb 4, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> Answer: International and overwhelming legal recognition by a majority of states within the UN.  Example: We don't recognize the state of Palestine, but other Arab countries do.  The UN has them in a special observer status so they can have a rep at the UN but no voting or veto rights.


I don't think the UN is the answer, I think the answer is an over whelming response from GCC type states.  But I think your point is not off point, just that a declaration of war is probably not a good thing a far as playing into Daesh political messaging.  If we declare "war" in any respect, we're giving them equal play on the international political stage.  We need bi-partisan support of what really needs to happen, but the message needs to be that we're smashing an unjust, immoral, and ultimately illegal organization that claims power based on violence not the voice of the people.


----------



## Brill (Feb 4, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> Given Jordan's extremely tenuous relationship with Syria going back to the 1970's, if the Jordanian king actually acted on this rhetoric, if might literally change the region as we know it.  It would be game on.



If this is what it takes to get you back on a team, I'm all for it...and willing to go with!


----------



## AWP (Feb 4, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> Given Jordan's extremely tenuous relationship with Syria going back to the 1970's, if the Jordanian king actually acted on this rhetoric, if might literally change the region as we know it.  It would be game on.


 
If Jordan chose to redraw some lines on a map or conduct regime change in Syria, I wouldn't flinch.  I think once the world moved beyond the short to mid-term butthurt over such a thing it would actually benefit the ME and send powerful messages to the West, the ME, Islam, Israel...anyone who is anyone in that region.


----------



## Viper1 (Feb 4, 2015)

lindy said:


> If this is what it takes to get you back on a team, I'm all for it...and willing to go with!



Thank you brother.  Lucky Thirteen and Bad Boys for Life!


----------



## Brill (Feb 4, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> If Jordan chose to redraw some lines on a map or conduct regime change in Syria, I wouldn't flinch.  I think once the world moved beyond the short to mid-term butthurt over such a thing it would actually benefit the ME and send powerful messages to the West, the ME, Islam, Israel...anyone who is anyone in that region.



I'd like to see Jordan push from the south, Israel push from west, Lebanon cover Homs, and Turkey take Allepo while Qurdistan "do what it do" in NE Syria.

IS would be fucked three ways to Sunday...while Tehran (aka Moscow South) would be scrambling "good??? Bad???" "I don't know Ayatollah, our enemies are fighting our enemies!"


----------



## CDG (Feb 4, 2015)

JBS said:


> In principle I do not agree with Jordan's reaction, as executing prisoners- even condemned ones- in response to an enemy is not the civilized response.
> 
> We are all a half step away from becoming what we hate; it's easy to feel like we're on the verge of being sucked into what they are.



Vehemently disagree.  "Civilized" is not the answer here.  When did warfare become about being more civilized than the other guy?  Jordan didn't stoop to burning prisoners alive, they hung condemned terrorists.  Those terrorists got EXACTLY what they deserved.  We are not even close to "becoming what we hate".  Violence in response to the savagery of ISIS is hardly a step in the wrong direction.  

What do you propose Jordan should have done?


----------



## Viper1 (Feb 4, 2015)

busdriver said:


> I don't think the UN is the answer, I think the answer is an over whelming response from GCC type states.  But I think your point is not off point, just that a declaration of war is probably not a good thing a far as playing into Daesh political messaging.  If we declare "war" in any respect, we're giving them equal play on the international political stage.  We need bi-partisan support of what really needs to happen, but the message needs to be that we're smashing an unjust, immoral, and ultimately illegal organization that claims power based on violence not the voice of the people.



My apologies, I meant the answer to your question when I wrote "answer"  I don't believe recognition by the UN is the answer either, especially since Daesh area covers parts of two sovereign nations. 

I'm fine with giving them equally play because it would solve a host of problems, especially IRT prisoners, detainees, etc.  If we had declared war through Congress against Iraq and Afghanistan, we would not be dealing with the mess we call Guantanamo Bay prison.  We would not be messing around with handing over detainees to our coalition partners, knowing full well they might be back in the fight within 48 hours.  Yes, we know ISIS, al-Qaeda, the Taliban and others will not follow the Geneva Convention; however legally declaring war gives us carte blanche to operate widely within those rules.  For example, there would be no argument about the Guantanamo Bay prisoners who have been kept there over a decade without criminal charges.  They would be POWs, and thus we could hold them for the duration of the conflict without question.


----------



## Viper1 (Feb 4, 2015)

CDG said:


> Vehemently disagree.  "Civilized" is not the answer here.  When did warfare become about being more civilized than the other guy?  Jordan didn't stoop to burning prisoners alive, they hung condemned terrorists.  Those terrorists got EXACTLY what they deserved.  We are not even close to "becoming what we hate".  Violence in response to the savagery of ISIS is hardly a step in the wrong direction.
> 
> What do you propose Jordan should have done?



JBS is right; however you are right CDG.  Those prisoners Jordan executed were tried, convicted, and set for execution anyway.  

But going back to JBS's comment, this is why I advocate a declaration of war.  We know the rules in some cases are outdated and not applicable to current times, but they only way to ensure they get accurately adjusted is to follow them and ensure our moral standing (I know, its debatable but it doesn't hurt us nonetheless) by declaring war and operating effectively within the conventions of customary law.  Yes, we still may have had the Abu Ghraib scandal and other shenanigans but as I said, I believe we made it harder on ourselves by not declaring war.  Witness the ever-changing SOFA agreements, the ever changing rules on detainee holding, questioning, and transfer, and the yearly fights about defense authorizations and budgets.  Most of that would have been wiped out had a declaration of war been in place.  It also ensures Congress puts their money where their mouth is and doesn't just end support for a war by cutting off the funding _á la_ Vietnam


----------



## busdriver (Feb 4, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> They would be POWs, and thus we could hold them for the duration of the conflict without question.


I think the political aspect is beyond you and me, this part is seriously on point.


----------



## CDG (Feb 4, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> JBS is right; however you are right CDG.  Those prisoners Jordan executed were tried, convicted, and set for execution anyway.
> 
> But going back to JBS's comment, this is why I advocate a declaration of war.  We know the rules in some cases are outdated and not applicable to current times, but they only way to ensure they get accurately adjusted is to follow them and ensure our moral standing (I know, its debatable but it doesn't hurt us nonetheless) by declaring war and operating effectively within the conventions of customary law.  Yes, we still may have had the Abu Ghraib scandal and other shenanigans but as I said, I believe we made it harder on ourselves by not declaring war.  Witness the ever-changing SOFA agreements, the ever changing rules on detainee holding, questioning, and transfer, and the yearly fights about defense authorizations and budgets.  Most of that would have been wiped out had a declaration of war been in place.  It also ensures Congress puts their money where their mouth is and doesn't just end support for a war by cutting off the funding _á la_ Vietnam



Sir, 

I agree that we should declare war.  If we do not, however, I believe we should back the plays of countries like Jordan that are willing to take action against ISIS.  I fail to see how it is at all helpful to condemn Jordan for executing who they did, when they did.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 4, 2015)

busdriver said:


> That was my first gut response to the video of the Jordanian pilot: we've got a bunch of CBU that will be OBE in a couple years, so let's dump it all on Raqqah.  *Then I actually thought about it, there has got to be plenty of people in that city that aren't assholes, they're just doing what they have to do to get by*.  Aside from the fact that our population would never support total war on that level short of an existential threat (even then I doubt it), do we really want to go down that path just because we're seriously pissed off?  Is that kind of response exactly what Daesh wants?  Would we be playing into their recruiting and media campaign plan?  Believe me, these assholes are extremely media savvy.  This atrocity may have been their hail Mary, I don't know but I don't think carpet bombing a city actually gets us anything strategically.  The message that sends to the world is that we're all the same.


The bold face stuff:
This is why they are winning.
We are so timid that collateral damage causes us to commit to inaction.
I'd drop leaflets giving them 24 hours to un-ass the town, then drop a MOAB on the town square (or main mosque).

ISIL tells everyone we are afraid of them and that is why they are safer with ISIL then with us; we oblige by avoiding any collateral damage that might kill "innocents". Wiping their "capitol" off the map sends a powerful message.  Fuck their IO campaign decrying civilian loss of life, they routinely set bombs off killing civilians.

Sometimes going medieval is the only way to send a message.


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 4, 2015)

Plenty of people is not necessarily a majority of people.  There are enough folks that tacitly support what IS is doing through their inaction and silence that I wouldn't have the first problem laying waste without warning.  As for the ones who don't support IS but are too scared to say anything, fuck cowards, they can dodge a bomb, too.  I have more respect for this one Iraqi father avenging his son than I do half a dozen men who speak in hushed whispers not to hide an insurrection, but in hopes that they will be allowed to live unnoticed.  For a religion that reveres martyrs as much as Islam does, there sure as hell aren't many out there willing to go out and take one for their team, whether or not they take a few of the IS guys with them in the process.


----------



## Grunt (Feb 4, 2015)

I like the fact that they are walking around with guns, beheading people, setting others on fire, and yet they are too much of a coward to allow their faces to be seen. 

Cowards to the core.....


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 4, 2015)

Saw a report that said the King of Jordan flew (led) airstrikes against ISIL today.

If true, wow!


----------



## BloodStripe (Feb 5, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Saw a report that said the King of Jordan flew (led) airstrikes against ISIL today.
> 
> If true, wow!




http://controversialtimes.com/news/...s-first-blood-leads-bombing-run-against-isis/

Let's hope it is true!


----------



## pardus (Feb 5, 2015)

Badass...


----------



## pardus (Feb 5, 2015)

Information disseminated over news and social media outlets about the king's participation in airstrikes against [ISIL] is false


----------



## AWP (Feb 5, 2015)

I'm not buying the picture. Maybe he flew, maybe he didn't, but I seriously doubt that picture is of a pilot before or after a mission. Capewells? That's his flight suit?


----------



## medicchick (Feb 5, 2015)

That picture was first posted online about 8 months ago, it was during some training IIRC.

http://instagram.com/p/pRW3FdDMPo/?modal=true


----------



## BloodStripe (Feb 5, 2015)

http://www.businessinsider.com/jordan-king-combat-military-uniform-picture-real-fake-2015-2


----------



## JBS (Feb 5, 2015)

@CDG ; just for clarity,  I'm not condemning Jordan.   I stated I do not agree in principle. 

I definitely understand their actions and am not immune to the sense of rage and anger over continual barbarism from these savage apes.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 5, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I'm not buying the picture. Maybe he flew, maybe he didn't, but I seriously doubt that picture is of a pilot before or after a mission. Capewells? That's his flight suit?


C-9 canopy?
or he could have been jumping.


----------



## AWP (Feb 5, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> C-9 canopy?
> or he could have been jumping.


 
Yeah, something didn't look right. It lacks D-rings for a ruck, but I did find where C-130 crews use rigs with Capewells. I tend to think that's what it is. I geeked out enough to look up the model of ejection seat for the F-16 to compare harnesses, even looking for Jordanian F-16 pilots...and none of them use Capewells. My money's on a -130 (or similar) crew rig.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 5, 2015)

What are the chances of a large-scale coordinated ground offensive? Because that's what's needed here. Who leads, who follows? Is there any cohesiveness to this "coalition?" In other words, when do the anti-ISIS forces come under a unified command that can direct a concerted effort on multiple fronts? Does that _ever _happen? We can fantasize all we want about carpet bombing and nuking the whole show, but in the end it's going to have to be rifles and frags. These fuckers are going to have to be rooted out.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 5, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> What are the chances of a large-scale coordinated ground offensive? Because that's what's needed here. Who leads, who follows? Is there any cohesiveness to this "coalition?" In other words, when do the anti-ISIS forces come under a unified command that can direct a concerted effort on multiple fronts? Does that _ever _happen? We can fantasize all we want about carpet bombing and nuking the whole show, but in the end it's going to have to be rifles and frags. These fuckers are going to have to be rooted out.


Arabs "lead" or nothing gets accomplished.
Just like the Saudi F-15 kills.


----------



## AWP (Feb 5, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Just like the Saudi F-15 kills.


 
??? What's that backstory?


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 5, 2015)

Found this one, looks like the same rig; he was acting JM.

 

http://www.businessinsider.com/king...l&utm_source=facebook.com&utm_campaign=buffer


----------



## busdriver (Feb 5, 2015)

Apparently not it was rather unlikely anyways since he's a helo pilot.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 5, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> ??? What's that backstory?


During the first Gulf war a Saudi F-15 Pilot scored a double kill against the Iraqi AF.  They made a big deal out of it, and quickly released the cockpit video.

fast fwd a few months and the various F-15 units come home; the pilots reveal that they vectored him ACROSS the Kingdom into an American MIGCAP to ensure he got the kill.  Even then he had issues getting it done.


----------



## AWP (Feb 5, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> During the first Gulf war a Saudi F-15 Pilot scored a double kill against the Iraqi AF.  They made a big deal out of it, and quickly released the cockpit video.
> 
> fast fwd a few months and the various F-15 units come home; the pilots reveal that they vectored him ACROSS the Kingdom into an American MIGCAP to ensure he got the kill.  Even then he had issues getting it done.


 
One team, one fight!

Sheesh...what an abortion.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 5, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> One team, one fight!
> 
> Sheesh...what an abortion.


Considering the number of kill opportunities, I can envision two very pissed off F-15 Pilots knowing their one chance to play whack-a-mole was taken away.
Just like the two guys when Clinton was President.


----------



## busdriver (Feb 5, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> One team, one fight!
> 
> Sheesh...what an abortion.


I wouldn't worry about the model too much, if the MIG threat had been imminent the US fighter CAP would have committed.  Probably the same thing will have to happen with SOF advising and assisting on the ground, you let the locals lead right up until you can't.


----------



## busdriver (Feb 5, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Considering the number of kill opportunities


Flight Doc I knew was a B-52 pilot in DS.  He recounted a story of F-15 pilots taunting the Iraqis on guard to come up and play.  Same guy also told a handful of us that we were insane to even contemplate quitting tobacco in combat, you couldn't pry the luck strikes out of his hand post strike back then.  Awesome dude.


----------



## Rapid (Feb 6, 2015)

Their women are amongst those personally signing the bombs.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 6, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Arabs "lead" or nothing gets accomplished...


 
Looks like it's going to be a long war.


----------



## CDG (Feb 6, 2015)

The UN says the group is selling children as slaves.  Not wholly unexpected I suppose, but hopefully as these atrocities stack up it will cement the commitment of countries to act against ISIS.

http://www.cnn.com/2015/02/06/world/isis-children-torture/index.html


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 6, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Their women are amongst those personally signing the bombs.


Really interesting video.  Looked like a lot of dumb bombs, the few "smart" bomb shots did not show aircraft markings, which makes me wonder if they are US F-16's in those shots.


----------



## Centermass (Feb 6, 2015)

RackMaster said:


> Found this one, looks like the same rig; he was acting JM.
> 
> View attachment 12533



Could have been a static JM. Or either he was a JAFO or a Safety. Looks like he's wearing a BA-22 harness sans the C-9, much like most load crews do.


----------



## Rapid (Feb 7, 2015)

By the way, this is Queen Rania of Jordan (in her 40s, no less).


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 7, 2015)

Does the King have a harem as well?  I'd do dirty things to the Queen.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 7, 2015)

@Rapid - Thanks for posting that.  Especially in this thread of death and sadness...she is just plain beautiful.


----------



## pardus (Feb 7, 2015)

It's good to be the king!


----------



## TLDR20 (Feb 7, 2015)

Hot wives are a requirement in SOF. I'm glad to see the King is maintaining the standard.


----------



## Dame (Feb 7, 2015)

RackMaster said:


> Does the King have a harem as well?  I'd do dirty things to the Queen.


He is the first king of Jordan to ever have only one wife.


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 7, 2015)

Wow.  She's lovely.


----------



## AWP (Feb 7, 2015)

The various Kings of Jordan don't marry ugly nor produce ugly. Dig into his offspring and siblings and you'll see what I mean.


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 7, 2015)

Dame said:


> He is the first king of Jordan to ever have only one wife.



She must have talents as well as looks. ;)


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 7, 2015)

Meanwhile back at the ranch, UAE back in the game:
http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/02/07/jordan-vows-to-completely-wipe-out-isis/


_The United Arab Emirates announced Saturday it is sending a squadron of F-16 fighter jets to Jordan, resuming its participation in U.S.-led airstrikes on The Islamic State in Iraq and Syria.

The announcement was made by UAE’s official government news agency, following the U.S. State Department's announcement Friday that the Arab country had reaffirmed its commitment to the coalition and that suggested that “positive news” on the matter would be announced within the next few days.

The UAE stopped flying airstrikes over Iraq shortly after Jordanian pilot Lt. Moath al Kasasbeh was shot down in a mission over Syria and captured by ISIS in December. News reports suggested the UAE dropped out because the United States did not have enough search-and-rescue assets in place to assist downed planes._


----------



## talonlm (Feb 7, 2015)

Centermass said:


> Could have been a static JM. Or either he was a JAFO or a Safety. Looks like he's wearing a BA-22 harness sans the C-9, much like most load crews do.




It's a restraint harness commonly used by loadmasters on C-130s the world over.  I can't say the same for C-17s or C-5s, but C-141, C-7, C-123 and C-145 loads all use them.  And, apparently, the Jordanians.  I can't remember the designation offhand (PCU-15?) but those of you who jump have seen them often enough.  I've occasionally had safeties ask to use them, but most of them want the BA-18s or bring their own.


----------



## Centermass (Feb 8, 2015)

Standard issue whenever I safety'd was the BA-18 and provided to us by the air crew on board.


----------



## Viper1 (Feb 8, 2015)

http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/is...re-defending-not-only-our-country-our-n302391

Keep the pressure on Jordan.  Keep the pressure on.  I hope what they are reporting is true, especially in regards to their effects.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 8, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/is...re-defending-not-only-our-country-our-n302391
> 
> Keep the pressure on Jordan.  Keep the pressure on.  I hope what they are reporting is true, especially in regards to their effects.



20 sorties a day is pretty good.  I hope they're actually hitting something.


----------



## AWP (Feb 8, 2015)

Wonder how many airframes they are using?


----------



## talonlm (Feb 8, 2015)

They have around seventy or so F-16sA/Bs.  As it's a given half are going to be in some kind of maintenance at any one time, and with training requirements and a dedicated air defense, twenty sorties a day is a pretty stout rate for them to maintain.  They also have F-5s, Cobras and their -235 gunship (though I don't know if they're out shooting with it or still testing).  Not sure how viable those would be around whatever ISIS has to shoot back with.


----------



## Il Duce (Feb 8, 2015)

Thought this was interesting, stolen from a poster in another forum: https://paxsims.wordpress.com/2015/02/07/revisiting-the-isis-crisis/


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 8, 2015)

Il Duce said:


> Thought this was interesting, stolen from a poster in another forum: https://paxsims.wordpress.com/2015/02/07/revisiting-the-isis-crisis/



Interesting that it was done at the University of Ottawa.  I'll have to read through it again when I have more time.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 8, 2015)

Il Duce said:


> Thought this was interesting, stolen from a poster in another forum: https://paxsims.wordpress.com/2015/02/07/revisiting-the-isis-crisis/


That's pretty cool.  It would be interesting to do something like this with the members of this site.


----------



## Dame (Feb 8, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> That's pretty cool.  It would be interesting to do something like this with the members of this site.


Case study alert, Sir?


----------



## AWP (Feb 9, 2015)

Dame said:


> Case study alert, Sir?


 
We have a few years, so why not?


----------



## Gunz (Feb 10, 2015)

I volunteer to be the matrix Subject Matter Expert (SME) on Queen Rania as she spends endless hours alone and lonely and yearning for affection whilst Abdullah II traipses around various military bases in his BA-22 harness minus the C-9 and D-rings, as she fondles her precious cucumber and banana collection.


----------



## Gunning (Feb 12, 2015)

What kind of SOF troop levels did we have in central and south and America back in the 80's when we were supporting the counter insurgency down there.  Is that model something our leaders should be looking at in this fight against Isis.  Did Reagan have to get congressional approval to send SOF to CA and SA?


----------



## AWP (Feb 12, 2015)

Gunning said:


> What kind of SOF troop levels did we have in central and south and America back in the 80's when we were supporting the counter insurgency down there.  Is that model something our leaders should be looking at in this fight against Isis.  Did Reagan have to get congressional approval to send SOF to CA and SA?


 
El Sal was "55" though I've heard the numbers fluctuated some.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 12, 2015)

Gunning said:


> What kind of SOF troop levels did we have in central and south and America back in the 80's when we were supporting the counter insurgency down there.  Is that model something our leaders should be looking at in this fight against Isis.  Did Reagan have to get congressional approval to send SOF to CA and SA?


 
Paramilitary support for the Contras was a CIA-run show and the term "troop-level" doesn't really apply. It wasn't many and FF's "55" is probably as good a number as any. Reagan authorized it secretly, although his administration openly asked Congress for financial aid...which it provided for a number of years. My ANG squadron was one of 20 others flying "humanitarian aid" in support of that effort. As far as SA, I'm not certain of numbers, but there were various clandestine detachments operating with Columbian police/army units against traffickers. Congressional knowledge of these operations was probably limited.

I'm not sure if either scenario would provide a template for operations against ISIS.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 12, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> El Sal was "55" though I've heard the numbers fluctuated some.


55 Permanent, cough cough.:-"


----------



## Salt USMC (Feb 13, 2015)

pardus said:


> Badass...
> 
> View attachment 12528


From a little while back, here's video from the King pulling JM duties


----------



## Florida173 (Feb 13, 2015)

They have tv channels in Jordan that just loop that stuff over and over.


----------



## Brill (Feb 13, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> They have tv channels in Jordan that just loop that stuff over and over.



Like the propaganda on MSNBC? :-"


----------



## Mac_NZ (Feb 13, 2015)

Why is your president riding a girl's style bicycle?


----------



## AWP (Feb 13, 2015)

Yet another example of the jokes writing themselves.


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 13, 2015)

Mac_NZ said:


> Why is your president riding a girl's style bicycle?



I believe it's called unisex...


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 13, 2015)

WTF is going on over there?  Twitter is all lit up about 300 Marines preparing to take the fight to ISIS?


----------



## Brill (Feb 13, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> WTF is going on over there?  Twitter is all lit up about 300 Marines preparing to take the fight to ISIS?



Press claims an IS probe that didn't fare well. No worries, IS is on the defensive per Obama.


----------



## Kraut783 (Feb 13, 2015)

"A handful of militants attacked the strategic Ayn al-Assad Air Base, but were all killed before coming anywhere near the U.S. forces, the U.S. Central Command said in a statement."

"Well, it looks like they at least got to the outer base limits," Pentagon spokesman Rear Adm. John Kirby told CNN. "We're still looking at this and it's hard to say whether they breached the perimeter or not. But they certainly got to the perimeter level at the very least."

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/02/13/middleeast/isis-iraq/


----------



## medicchick (Feb 13, 2015)




----------



## BloodStripe (Feb 17, 2015)

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/?utm_source=SFFB

A rather long but good read.


----------



## Blizzard (Feb 18, 2015)

^ Not entirely sure I agree with what I read.

This tends to be my current view...

ISIS in many ways is simply the latest manifistation of the long running Sunni vs Shia conflict.  They are Sunnis and the reincarnate of Al-Qaeda in Iraq.  The areas they are having success are Sunni; look at the maps and the areas they control as evidence. ISIS is exploiting past (and current) idiocy of the Iraqi government (as well as ours), and in a great part Maliki specifically.  Maliki is Shia and the way he choose to include/exclude Sunnis from the Iraqi government gave (and continues to give) ISIS a position from which to argue and continue to recruit.  So far, Al-Abadi doesn't appear to be improving things in this respect.   The Iraqi government continues to lock out the Sunnis in any meaningful way, thus allowing ISIS to continue to project a message to Sunnis as being "victims" which aids from a recruiting standpoint.   Add to this ISIS' incredibly keen understanding and ability to manipulate the media.

As a result, I tend to think ISIS "success" has more to do with Sunni disillusionment and media manipulation than it does of any particular ideology.   I wonder how successful they can truly be reaching outside Sunni regions (which is not to say they aren't dangerous or shouldn't be crushed).   There are all kinds of anti-government groups battling in Iraq/Syria and ISIS' ability to work across borders provides a key advantage (provides a safe haven to return). While ISIS leaders may spew some b.s. about some ideology and caliphate, I'm not so sure the bulk of their fighters in Iraq give a shit about ISIS ideology per se as much as they do about making sure Sunnis are not at the bottom of the proverbial totem pole.  It's an eye for an eye kind of bullshit and probably explains, in part, why they can't get broader alignment/approval from Al Qaeda.  Different objectives.  This is also why countries, like Jordan, which is mostly Sunni, are concerned.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 18, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> ... I wonder how successful they can truly be reaching outside Sunni regions...


 
So far they've been very successful recruiting people who have little or no stake in the Sunni/Shia conflict. I suspect most of the thousands of recruits, foreign or otherwise, streaming to the ranks of ISIS have no idea why the Sunnis and Shiites have hated each other since the mid-seventh century. That's not to say Sunni/Shia differences don't play a part here...I just think for the most part, individual ISIS members are "in it" for any number of reasons.

As far as ISIS vrs Al Qaeda, there's not a whole lot of ideological difference there, it's more like King of the Hill. ISIS claims to be the _the one and only true path of Islam_. And any Muslim who doesn't believe in their interpretation of Islam is a non-believer. One of the main reasons why jihadists will never unite to present more than regional threats is because they've been fighting each other since the disintegration of the original caliphate.


----------



## Blizzard (Feb 18, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> So far they've been very successful recruiting people who have little or no stake in the Sunni/Shia conflict. I suspect most of the thousands of recruits, foreign or otherwise, streaming to the ranks of ISIS have no idea why the Sunnis and Shiites have hated each other since the mid-seventh century. That's not to say Sunni/Shia differences don't play a part here...I just think for the most part, individual ISIS members are "in it" for any number of reasons.


ISIS only numbers around 30K accoding to CIA estimates from Sept.   Realistically, top end of current estimates 50K - 60K, most of whom are those "local" Sunnis.  ISIS plays bigger as a result of their media expertise.   ISIS will claim 180K members, yet, they haven't been able to defeat either the Syrian army or the beleagured Iraqi army (which numbers over 250K by comparison).

Are they attracting others to the fight?  Sure.  But there will always be a core group of fanatics that will jump into the fight.  Which is why I don't think ISIS' ideology has the legs to reach further than Sunni regions.  Even now, they and other opposition groups end up fighting amongst each other and that's a good thing - let them kill each other off.


----------



## CDG (Feb 18, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> ISIS only numbers around 30K accoding to CIA estimates from Sept.   Realistically, top end of current estimates 50K - 60K, most of whom are those "local" Sunnis.  ISIS plays bigger as a result of their media expertise.   ISIS will claim 180K members, yet, they haven't been able to defeat either the Syrian army or the beleagured Iraqi army (which numbers over 250K by comparison).
> 
> Are they attracting others to the fight?  Sure.  But there will always be a core group of fanatics that will jump into the fight.  Which is why I don't think ISIS' ideology has the legs to reach further than Sunni regions.  Even now, they and other opposition groups end up fighting amongst each other and that's a good thing - let them kill each other off.



Nobody knows how many fighters ISIS has.  Estimates have ranged from 9K to 200K.  Exactly what terror group do you think the attackers in France, Belgium, Denmark, and Canada would most identify with?  The ISIS model is one of decentralized control where satellites/cells/nodes/whatever are scattered far and wide and carry out operations as they see fit.  To say it is only about Sunni vs Shia is a little ridiculous given the statements the ISIS media arm has put out.  They have stated time and again that their goals go FAR beyond eliminating the Shias.  

http://warontherocks.com/2015/02/how-many-fighters-does-the-islamic-state-really-have/


----------



## Blizzard (Feb 18, 2015)

CDG said:


> Nobody knows how many fighters ISIS has.  Estimates have ranged from 9K to 200K.  Exactly what terror group do you think the attackers in France, Belgium, Denmark, and Canada would most identify with?  The ISIS model is one of decentralized control where satellites/cells/nodes/whatever are scattered far and wide and carry out operations as they see fit.  To say it is only about Sunni vs Shia is a little ridiculous given the statements the ISIS media arm has put out.  They have stated time and again that their goals go FAR beyond eliminating the Shias.
> 
> http://warontherocks.com/2015/02/how-many-fighters-does-the-islamic-state-really-have/


No one knows exact numbers (again, partly due to the media manipulation of ISIS) but there are some reasonable/logical estimates that can be arrived at and the 30-50K number seems to be about right.

Consider the sources claiming numbers and what they have to gain.  Ex. the Kurds want aid.  They're the ones throwing out the outlier.  Which sounds like they need more help - a group fending a few thousand or a couple hundred thousand?  Think about it:
*  ISIS has not held any ground beyond traditional Sunni areas
*  The Iraqi army with all it's challenges is 250K+
*  Are those terror attacks in France, Belgium, Canada, etc. from actual ISIS members/cells or are they more likely loose outliers/sympathizers (ie. the lunatic fringe)?

ISIS is able to attract Sunni fighters because they can play they "victim" card.  That's giving them the bulk of their force.  Would they have been as successful if the Sunnis were given a greater voice in their new government...or at least not smacked down the way they were (some examples:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012%E2%80%9314_Iraqi_protests)?  Maliki's approach has given ISIS' view an air of legitimacy.  In addition, the Sunni/Shia angle is also why Iran has quietly got involved.  Iran wants to marginalize Sunni power and will back a "brother" Shia government...and the Iraqi government will quietly allow their assistance.

I'm just sharing my view on ISIS.  But to be clear, I think we need to eradicate the motherfuckers.


----------



## Theirb123 (Feb 19, 2015)

http://boston.barstoolsports.com/m/...eyre-into-a-lot-more-gay-sex-than-i-expected/


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 19, 2015)

Interesting...found an ISIS recruiting vid on Facebook...should go without saying, but this would fall under the category of NSFW -





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=340403982816078


----------



## CDG (Feb 19, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> No one knows exact numbers (again, partly due to the media manipulation of ISIS) but there are some reasonable/logical estimates that can be arrived at and the 30-50K number seems to be about right. Consider the sources claiming numbers and what they have to gain.  Ex. the Kurds want aid.  They're the ones throwing out the outlier.  Which sounds like they need more help - a group fending a few thousand or a couple hundred thousand?


 
Seems to be about right based on what?  Did you read the article?  Chief of Russian General Staff estimated 70K and Middle East based security experts have estimated 100K.  So the Kurds have estimated the highest number, but they are not the only ones estimating above 30-50K.



Blizzard said:


> Think about it:
> *  ISIS has not held any ground beyond traditional Sunni areas
> *  The Iraqi army with all it's challenges is 250K+
> *  Are those terror attacks in France, Belgium, Canada, etc. from actual ISIS members/cells or are they more likely loose outliers/sympathizers (ie. the lunatic fringe)?


 
* How much ground do they need to hold?  They've been extremely effective to this point without worrying about what land they hold or don't hold.  They've proven they can take large cities. 
* What's your point?
* Does it really matter?  How many attacks have to happen before you don't consider it the "lunatic fringe"?  Whether or not they are considered "official" members of ISIS is beside the point.  ISIS isn't built on membership cards.  They've said, "Hey, we don't care where you're at.  Rise up and kill infidels."  That's exactly what's happening.  This "well....... they're not REALLY ISIS, it's not REALLY Islamic extremism" approach is short-sighted and dangerous.



Blizzard said:


> ISIS is able to attract Sunni fighters because they can play they "victim" card.  That's giving them the bulk of their force.  Would they have been as successful if the Sunnis were given a greater voice in their new government...or at least not smacked down the way they were (some examples:  http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2012%E2%80%9314_Iraqi_protests)?  Maliki's approach has given ISIS' view an air of legitimacy.  In addition, the Sunni/Shia angle is also why Iran has quietly got involved.  Iran wants to marginalize Sunni power and will back a "brother" Shia government...and the Iraqi government will quietly allow their assistance.
> 
> I'm just sharing my view on ISIS.  But to be clear, I think we need to eradicate the motherfuckers.


 
The victim card????  That's hardly what their recruitment is based on.  Openly stating you want to establish a new caliphate and usher in the end times doesn't sound like a victim mindset, it sounds like a group with a clear goal.


----------



## Blizzard (Feb 19, 2015)

CDG said:


> Seems to be about right based on what?  Did you read the article?  Chief of Russian General Staff estimated 70K and Middle East based security experts have estimated 100K.  So the Kurds have estimated the highest number, but they are not the only ones estimating above 30-50K.


Yes, I read the article and there was some fair analysis but it lacked critical thinking in other aspects.  The Russian General you mentioned was speaking to TASS (a very non-biased source) and quoted 70K while also blaming U.S. for funding.  The single ME expert you mention, an Iraqi, said up to 100k. The numbers I mentioned are the most frequently cited and seem most likely based on CIA reports, independent observers/news reports, and perhaps more importantly, associated quantitative and empirical evidence as cited below...



CDG said:


> * How much ground do they need to hold?  They've been extremely effective to this point without worrying about what land they hold or don't hold.  They've proven they can take large cities.


Disagree.  ISIS proved they could take a large cities in Arab Sunni areas by surprise last summer. However, more recently, they've also shown they can't take/hold smaller cities (they lost Kobani and surrounding villages). Just yesterday, the Kurds reportedly turned back a "major" attack on Irbil.   ISIS' progress appears to stall out.  Also, consider this map of enthic regions and compare it to territory controlled by ISIS (yellow area is traditional Arab Sunni - ISIS are Arab Sunnis):






ISIS needs to hold ground to maintain their influence and as a secure base for operations.  It's key for any group; having a secure base of operations in Afghanistan was key to Al Qaeda successes.  Up until airstrikes began on both sides of the Syrian/Iraqi border, ISIS had safe havens to move between, providing them a big advantage.  That is being mitigated:
http://www.aljazeera.com/news/middl...aqis-optimistic-2015-2014122483413657350.html



CDG said:


> * What's your point?


Very simple.  If ISIS is really the steamroller they have some believing they are, why can't they seriously challenge the beleaguered Iraqi army.  ISIS took Mosul last June, despite being outnumbered 40:1.  But they did so not necessarily because they were great fighters but because the Iraqi army refused to fight.  Yet, since then, ISIS progress largely remains consolidated to primarily Arab Sunni regions.  What's more, they've actually lost ground to Peshmerga because the Peshmerga will actually fight. Their progress has clearly slowed since their gains last summer and fall and it's having an impact:
http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/f1705f00-85e6-11e4-a105-00144feabdc0.html#axzz3SCgMa82G
Why did it stall out?  How do you explain that?



CDG said:


> * Does it really matter?


Yes...more below.


CDG said:


> How many attacks have to happen before you don't consider it the "lunatic fringe"?  Whether or not they are considered "official" members of ISIS is beside the point.


 No, it's not...


CDG said:


> ISIS isn't built on membership cards.  They've said, "Hey, we don't care where you're at.  Rise up and kill infidels."  That's exactly what's happening.  This "well....... they're not REALLY ISIS, it's not REALLY Islamic extremism" approach is short-sighted and dangerous.


Who said that?  Not me.

Anyone can simply say "we're ISIS" and the media blindly reports it as such.  Just because they say they are doesn't make it so.  Is Boko Haram ISIS too?

ISIS is one carve out from the greater umbrella of Islamic extremists.  How do you eat an elephant? One bite at a time.  ISIS' broader threat is in how it inspires other radical extremists, on that we agree, and it has shown innovation in it's ability to manipulate the media and generate funding.  Their sensationalism/barbarism has allowed them to play bigger than they are; an effective use of media to drive fear/terror.  This is the angle they brought to the table (a reinvention of the stuff al-Zarqawi was doing a decade ago) and that aspect to their threat  shouldn't be downplayed.

Defeating ISIS is just one battle in the larger war against Islamic extremism, which includes Al Qaeda, Boko Haram, Al-Shabaab, and many smaller groups.


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 19, 2015)

CDG said:


> * Does it really matter?  How many attacks have to happen before you don't consider it the "lunatic fringe"?  Whether or not they are considered "official" members of ISIS is beside the point.  ISIS isn't built on membership cards.  They've said, "Hey, we don't care where you're at.  Rise up and kill infidels."  That's exactly what's happening.  This "well....... they're not REALLY ISIS, it's not REALLY Islamic extremism" approach is short-sighted and dangerous.





Blizzard said:


> Who said that?  Not me.
> 
> Anyone can simply say "we're ISIS" and the media blindly reports it as such.  Just because they say they are doesn't make it so.  Is Boko Haram ISIS too?



In a culture that puts a lot of legal weight upon the recitation of a few specific words or sentences at the right time (e.g. recite the Shahada, and BAM you're a Muslim; or look at your wife and say "Talaq, talaq, talaq (sp)," and BAM, you're divorced), all it takes is a spoken declaration for your membership to be valid with that organization.  Some of the lone wolf attacks that were planned for the US post-9/11 were reported to have been planned out by someone with mental problems that made them susceptible to Islamic extremist teachings.  Without a membership roster, how can you prove whether or not the Charlie Hebdo shooters were ISIS members, especially considering at least one of them had been to Syria in the recent past.  And before you start with the "Is X then Y?" argument, remember that Al Shabaab was merely Al Shabaab for a hot minute, then officially aligned themselves as a part of the Al Qaeda network a couple of years ago.  What's to stop Boko Haram from actively declaring themselves a part of ISIS if they haven't already?  They've already come out in agreement with the concept of an Islamic caliphate, they just want to have their own caliphate for the time being.  How long before ISIS makes them a deal that they can't refuse to consolidate their efforts?


----------



## pardus (Feb 19, 2015)

@Blizzard I'm not going to go through point by point, but you are making some grand assumptions that are not based on the reality of the situation IMO.


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 19, 2015)

Bad news, POTUS.  When you've lost Vox, you've got issues. 



> ...Balancing these goals would be extraordinarily difficult for any president. George W. Bush struggled with it throughout his administration. But Obama is faltering. He has veered so far into downplaying Islamist extremism that he appears at times to refuse to acknowledge its existence at all, or has referred to it as violent extremism. While he has correctly identified economic and political factors that give rise to extremism, he has appeared to downplay or outright deny an awkward but important fact: religion plays an important role as well...
> 
> *snip*
> 
> ...



Agree or not with Vox's entire view of the situation, even Max Fisher can't discount that religion is playing a role here.


----------



## Blizzard (Feb 19, 2015)

pardus said:


> @Blizzard I'm not going to go through point by point, but you are making some grand assumptions that are not based on the reality of the situation IMO.


@pardus.  Fair enough, we can disagree.  I'm merely stating my view based on the evidence I see.  Curious though to know where you think grand assumptions are being made?


----------



## Blizzard (Feb 19, 2015)

racing_kitty said:


> What's to stop Boko Haram from actively declaring themselves a part of ISIS if they haven't already?  They've already come out in agreement with the concept of an Islamic caliphate, they just want to have their own caliphate for the time being.  How long before ISIS makes them a deal that they can't refuse to consolidate their efforts?


ISIS has already done so with a number of groups, namely Ansar al-Islam.  However, as evidenced even with them, a portion of it's followers reportedly rejected the merger.  They have an ongoing disjointedness with Al Qaeda. 

While their broad alignment of Islamic extremism may bind them, regional/local differences thus far seem to be key points of disagreement that lead to continued reports of infighting among groups.  I'm not sure they have effective leadership to truly control it as evidenced by the reports of disillusionment cited in one of the earlier articles I posted.

Would, say Boko Haram, really pledge allegiance, not merely, alignment to ISIS?  That is reportedly what ISIS asking.

One more article, in attempt to support my view:
http://www.spectator.co.uk/features/9410252/the-hype-jihad/


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 19, 2015)

I think you're missing my point just a little.  Again, it's a culture clash.  You're looking at it through the eyes of Western-style organization, i.e. "Yes, they have stated they are a part of Group X, but far too many underlings are disenfranchised/disillusioned/pissed off, which leads to internal conflicts.  Since Group X can't effectively control Group W, there is no true merger, meaning Group W is still Group W, but sympathetic to group X."

Whereas in the tribal culture of the ME, it's "We are Group W, we openly declare our allegiance with Group X, therefore we are now Group X.  We personally hate Subgroup Y (formerly Group Y), but they are also Group X."  In their eyes, it really is that simple, and we here in the West have a really infuriating tendency to overly complicate the simple things, so much so that we are in no way capable of making sense of what really is complicated over there.

You see it your way, and I'll see it mine, which comes from enough years spent in Iraq, working with Iraqis to have picked their minds a time or two about cultural differences


----------



## CDG (Feb 19, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> Yes, I read the article and there was some fair analysis but it lacked critical thinking in other aspects.  The Russian General you mentioned was speaking to TASS (a very non-biased source) and quoted 70K while also blaming U.S. for funding.  The single ME expert you mention, an Iraqi, said up to 100k. The numbers I mentioned are the most frequently cited and seem most likely based on CIA reports, independent observers/news reports, and perhaps more importantly, associated quantitative and empirical evidence as cited below...



Seem most likely is not definitive proof.  I'm not dismissing the possibility that the CIA estimates may be correct.  What I am dismissing is the idea of choosing to randomly pick one set of a range of reported numbers and use to argue as though it's hard truth.  You said:


Blizzard said:


> Realistically, top end of current estimates 50K - 60K, most of whom are those "local" Sunnis.



Yet these aren't the top end of current estimates.  It's not an argument to continuously point to why the other estimates are wrong based on some inherent bias.  Do we not do the same thing?  Our President won't even use the words "Islamic extremism".  So to counter your argument, maybe the CIAs numbers are being influenced by pressure from the top to downplay the reports in order to help out the administration.  The same administration that referred to ISIS as the "JV" squad.  To be clear, I don't believe this, but by your own logic it's now a valid argument.




Blizzard said:


> Disagree.  ISIS proved they could take a large cities in Arab Sunni areas by surprise last summer. However, more recently, they've also shown they can't take/hold smaller cities (they lost Kobani and surrounding villages). Just yesterday, the Kurds reportedly turned back a "major" attack on Irbil.   ISIS' progress appears to stall out.  Also, consider this map of enthic regions and compare it to territory controlled by ISIS (yellow area is traditional Arab Sunni - ISIS are Arab Sunnis):
> 
> 
> ISIS needs to hold ground to maintain their influence and as a secure base for operations.  It's key for any group; having a secure base of operations in Afghanistan was key to Al Qaeda successes.  Up until airstrikes began on both sides of the Syrian/Iraqi border, ISIS had safe havens to move between, providing them a big advantage.  That is being mitigated:
> ...



ISIS currently holds quite a bit of ground: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...s-conflict-in-maps-photos-and-video.html?_r=0
http://www.bbc.com/news/world-middle-east-27838034
They are being pounded by airstrikes, but no one can seriously argue that is going to be enough on its own to remove them.  They are consistently gaining recruits from all over the globe and already can be argued as a more formidable terrorist organization than AQ.  How long did it take them to reach that?

They may be in a bit of a stall now, sure.  Is that not to be expected considering what they are facing currently?  They're hardly on the run.  You said it yourself, the Iraqi army wouldn't fight.  So does ISIS really need to worry about challenging them at this time?  I don't think so.  I wouldn't be surprised if it was intentional on ISISs part due to them having moles inside the Iraqi Army.





Blizzard said:


> Anyone can simply say "we're ISIS" and the media blindly reports it as such.  Just because they say they are doesn't make it so.  Is Boko Haram ISIS too?



@racing_kitty already hit the nail on the head with this one.  ISIS wants other Muslims to say "we're ISIS" and then go carry out operations.  They've been saying it the whole time!  Again, what criteria are you using to define one group as ISIS and another as not ISIS within the context of recent attacks?


----------



## Brill (Feb 19, 2015)

racing_kitty said:


> Bad news, POTUS.  When you've lost Vox, you've got issues.
> 
> 
> 
> Agree or not with Vox's entire view of the situation, even Max Fisher can't discount that religion is playing a role here.



Don't want to piss off the Iranians during nuke treaty discussions.

http://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2015/02/obamas-secret-iran-strategy/


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 19, 2015)

lindy said:


> Don't want to piss off the Iranians during nuke treaty discussions.
> 
> http://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2015/02/obamas-secret-iran-strategy/



TLDR.  I'll have to go over that later on, when I've got time, and I'm not otherwise engaged with a Smallish Child.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 20, 2015)

lindy said:


> Don't want to piss off the Iranians during nuke treaty discussions.
> 
> http://mosaicmagazine.com/essay/2015/02/obamas-secret-iran-strategy/


 

It's the kumbaya approach to Iran, the carrot instead of the stick. Smother them with affection into giving up any plans for weaponized nukes. I look at this as rationalising a potentially disasterous policy. In my view Iran's primary goal is developing nuclear arms...otherwise why years of secrecy, deception, prevarication? Netanyahu is right, Obama is wrong...appeasement plays into their hands, makes us look weak and only earns their contempt. They respect and fear strength.


----------



## Brill (Feb 22, 2015)




----------



## AWP (Feb 23, 2015)

Out of boredom I looked up Psaki's and Harf's bio's.

Psaki: William and Mary, and Obama acolyte and longtime spokesperson for various Democratic officials and candidates. She'll probably be the next White House Comm. Director.

Harf: MA from U of Virginia, former CIA analyst turned spokesperson. Another Obama acolyte from his 2012 campaign. She's currently Psaki's deputy.

A professional mouthpiece and an analyst turned professional mouthpiece. I doubt the GOP does any better, but this is our gov't. 'Merica.


----------



## Grunt (Feb 23, 2015)

Couldn't agree more! At the end of the day, they are all puppets who willingly do what their masters tell them to do or say. It will be the same regardless of which party is in power. 

It's just always nicer when it's the party I think ought to be in power.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 26, 2015)

Jihadi John ID'd


http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-31637090


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 26, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Out of boredom I looked up Psaki's and Harf's bio's.
> 
> Psaki: William and Mary, and Obama acolyte and longtime spokesperson for various Democratic officials and candidates. She'll probably be the next White House Comm. Director.
> 
> ...


They both have purdy mouths though.:die:


----------



## Blizzard (Feb 26, 2015)

Some of the things we do leaves me scratching my head.   Unless it's misdirection (it doesn't seem to be), why would CENTCOM release such a statement:
http://www.militarytimes.com/story/...attle-of-mosul-could-begin-in-april/23697219/

As a result, is anyone surprised at this General's prediction?
http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2015/feb/25/mission-to-retake-mosul-from-islamic-state-doomed-/


----------



## AWP (Feb 26, 2015)

I thinik the gem of the article is this:


> “I don’t think we have the means on the ground to generate adequate intelligence on where to go in Mosul, what to hit, where not to go,” said the retired three-star general. “I would think the first thing is you’ve got to develop a network of intelligence to be able to hit the right targets to set the conditions.”


 
Announcing it will force them to ratchet up preparations, which allows us to see and hear what they are doing. Beng so precise in the announcement....that's patently stupid. We'd have to suffer from serious delusions if we think 25,000 troops can jump on Mosul shouting "Surprise! Buttsex!"


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 7, 2015)

1 Canadian dead and 3 injured in friendly fire from Kurds.

RIP Sgt. Andrew Joseph Doiron.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/canadian-soldier-killed-by-friendly-fire-in-iraq-1.2268817


----------



## racing_kitty (Mar 7, 2015)

Damn.  Considering what they're fighting against, this is particularly heartbreaking.


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 7, 2015)

This may put the mission extension at risk as well.  There's supposed to be a debate in Parliament about it and I know the opposition doesn't have the stomach for casualties.  We have a lot public support for the mission but I don't know if the masses have it in them for many repatriations.


----------



## Gunz (Mar 7, 2015)

RackMaster said:


> 1 Canadian dead and 3 injured in friendly fire from Kurds.
> 
> RIP Sgt. Andrew Joseph Doiron.
> 
> http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/canadian-soldier-killed-by-friendly-fire-in-iraq-1.2268817


 

Fuck. Bullets have never learned to tell the good guys from the bad guys and I'm willing to bet most of us have been touched by blue on blue at one time or another. Yes, RIP Sgt Doiron. Hand Salute...and hopefully your death will lead to better comm between friendlies so these incidents don't happen again.


----------



## racing_kitty (Mar 7, 2015)

Didn't see this one coming, did we?



> Nigerian militant group Boko Haram has pledged allegiance to Islamic State (IS), according to an audio statement.
> 
> The message, which was not verified, was posted on Boko Haram's Twitter account and appeared to be by the group's leader, Abubakar Shekau...
> 
> ...In the audio message posted on Saturday, the Boko Haram leader purportedly said: "We announce our allegiance to the Caliph... and will hear and obey in times of difficulty and prosperity."...


----------



## Gunz (Mar 7, 2015)

They're all just jumping on the bandwagon of the popular terrorist group du jour. Every lowlife POS wants to be the bully's friend...as long as the bully seems to be winning.


----------



## Grunt (Mar 7, 2015)

racing_kitty said:


> Didn't see this one coming, did we?



Yep...that's what losers do. They group together so that they can become bigger losers. In the end, they will use each other until they get tired of one another. ISIS doesn't appear -- at least to me -- to want to "seriously" play with others. They want what "they" want...when they want it...and it doesn't matter what anyone else thinks about it. They will let whoever wants to join in their games join...as long as they pay "their dues" to play.


----------



## The Accountant (Mar 7, 2015)

https://news.vice.com/article/islam...-over-iraq-city-entrance-during-tikrit-battle

The title "IS hangs corpses over Iraq city entrance" should give some discretion.


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 8, 2015)

That's it, fuck the Kurds and Iraq.  The whole ME can rot in hell.  



> Peshmerga spokesman Halgurd Hekmat said a group of Canadian soldiers showed up unannounced Friday to the village of Bashiq, in Iraq’s Nineveh province near the militant-held city of Mosul. The area had seen heavy fighting against Islamic State militants the previous day.
> *
> “When they returned, the peshmerga asked them to identify themselves,” Hekmat told The Associated Press. “They answered in Arabic, that’s when peshmerga started shooting. It was their fault.”*
> 
> ...


----------



## Queeg (Mar 8, 2015)

The Monday morning quarterbacking has already started.


----------



## Marine0311 (Mar 8, 2015)

PaulD said:


> The Monday morning quarterbacking has already started.



It seems to never stop.


----------



## Gunz (Mar 13, 2015)

Aussie teenager who joins IS blows himself up in suicide bomb van  

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-31863575


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 13, 2015)

Details from the investigation coming out.  Professional to the end.

http://www.cbc.ca/m/news/politics/a...fire-when-kurds-turned-guns-on-them-1.2993010


----------



## DA SWO (Mar 13, 2015)

Kurds need to accept responsibility.  They won't as they are as concerned about saving face as our Pacific Allies are.


----------



## BloodStripe (Mar 15, 2015)

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/syrias-second-front/#-syrias-second-front

I watched this on Netflix and found it to be very informative about the past year and a half about the situation in Syria (2013 into 2014). I don't know for sure if this PBS link will work for the full 52 minute video, but if you have Netflix it is worth the time. It very well could be on their iTunes podcast section (Frontlines) as well.


----------



## Brill (Mar 16, 2015)

Damn UN getting on their high horse again.



> "They don't care what it's called; they are just following their ideology and that means getting rid of churches and minorities," said MEMRI Executive Director Steven Stalinsky. "It is the Islamic State, and there's no room for anyone else.
> 
> "This has been going on for some time, a systematic campaign to rid the region" of any vestiges of Christianity.
> 
> ...


----------



## pardus (Mar 16, 2015)

lindy said:


> Damn UN getting on their high horse again.



Yes, we must "remind" people in the strongest possibly worded letter. THEREFORE I SUGGEST A LETTER IN CAPS!


----------



## Gunz (Apr 21, 2015)

ISIS bigshot, former Saddam BFF, takes dirtnap in glass coffin.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ormer-Saddam-henchman-handed-authorities.html


----------



## AWP (Apr 21, 2015)

I love happy endings.


----------



## Grunt (Apr 21, 2015)

Good news!


----------



## Florida173 (Apr 21, 2015)

I'll be managing my expectations on this one.  This is good news if true, but keeping in mind that JRTN's influence has been greatly diminished with ISIL.


----------



## Gunz (Apr 21, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> I'll be managing my expectations on this one.  This is good news if true, but keeping in mind that JRTN's influence has been greatly diminished with ISIL.


 
They don't fit in with plans for the Caliphate. Be that as it may, the Khalazzi Network claims to have killed him and his BGs in a 20 minute firefight and DNA tests are reportedly in the offing. We'll see...


----------



## racing_kitty (Apr 21, 2015)

Karma has always been a fan of "Better late than never."  Nary a tear I'll cry for this fucker.


----------



## Rapid (Apr 21, 2015)

That ginger cuntbag should've stayed disappeared.

But all the better for us that he didn't.


----------



## Brill (Apr 24, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I love happy endings.



You're still getting your haircut and "neck massage" by those Uzbeks huh?


----------



## AWP (Apr 24, 2015)

lindy said:


> You're still getting your haircut and "neck massage" by those Uzbeks huh?



Nope! People who no longer work at Bagram/ Afghanistan include this guy right here.


----------



## Salt USMC (Apr 27, 2015)

Iranian news is reporting that they shwacked Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi

http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...dadi-dead-Radio-Iran/articleshow/47070851.cms


> *ISIS chief Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi dead: Radio Iran*
> NEW DELHI: The enigmatic chief of Islamic State jihadist group Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is dead, Radio Iran has reported on Monday.
> 
> Earlier, a Guardian report quoting sources with inside knowledge of the group reported that al-Baghdadi was severely injured in a US-led coalition air strike in March.
> ...



The article doesn't give much in the way of specifics, and unfortunately I can't find any other articles that shed more light on this.  Most of them are saying that al-Baghdadi was severely wounded in March, and his recent death was either the result of those injuries or some other unspecified event.  I'll try to track down this "Radio Iran" and see if I can get the original report.

But hey, if he is dead then it might be a nice day for a celebratory beer or 12


----------



## pardus (Apr 27, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Iranian news is reporting that they shwacked Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi
> 
> http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/...dadi-dead-Radio-Iran/articleshow/47070851.cms
> 
> ...



Hmm, I'll wait to celebrate when I hear it from a more reputable source. 
That would be excellent news though, particularly after the death of al-Dori.


----------



## Salt USMC (Apr 27, 2015)

pardus said:


> Hmm, I'll wait to celebrate when I hear it from a more reputable source.
> That would be excellent news though, particularly after the death of al-Dori.


Of course.  I'm sure if something as big as this has happened then US sources will hear about it in due time.  If we don't get a Pentagon press release about it in a day or two then it's probably safe to chalk it up as a rumor.


----------



## pardus (Apr 27, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Of course.  I'm sure if something as big as this has happened then US sources will hear about it in due time.  If we don't get a Pentagon press release about it in a day or two then it's probably safe to chalk it up as a rumor.



Yeah, well fingers crossed!


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 27, 2015)

Why claim he is dead, if he is alive?
Get folks to stop looking for him?


----------



## pardus (Apr 27, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Why claim he is dead, if he is alive?
> Get folks to stop looking for him?



You're trying to make sense of something that came out of Iran?


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## RackMaster (Apr 27, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Why claim he is dead, if he is alive?
> Get folks to stop looking for him?



Maybe they want to claim the reward... :-"


----------



## BloodStripe (May 16, 2015)

http://www.cnn.com/2015/05/16/middleeast/syria-isis-us-raid/

Another one bites the dust.


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## BloodStripe (May 16, 2015)

pardus said:


> Hmm, I'll wait to celebrate when I hear it from a more reputable source.
> That would be excellent news though, particularly after the death of al-Dori.


http://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2015-...ment-hq-in-ramadi-iraqi-officials-say/6474642

Of course it's just an audio message so whether or not he is alive is still unknown.


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## Dame (May 16, 2015)

Yipee ki yay, motherfucker.


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## AWP (May 16, 2015)

Working for ISIS, the Taliban, or Al-Q has the job security of an IT guy at Bank of America....


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## Ooh-Rah (May 24, 2015)

*Iraqi forces have no will to fight. 
*

Obviously this has been said within the forum on more than one occasion, but to see an active member of the current administration be so frontal, I have to admit surprise.  I'm to the point where I don't know who or what to believe anymore, so al-Zamili's claim that the U.S. bailed on promised support does not offend me, but it does explain why the Secretary of Defense would say what he said (covering of ass).  In the end, I believe that the Iraq's pussied out, and SecDef is fed up.  At the same time, it makes sense that the Iraq's have no will to fight without direct American support, regardless of the odds, and would rather run and blend into the hills rather than defend their homeland.

http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ays-iraq-will-to-fight-at-issue-after-ramadi/

_The Iraqi forces defeated by Islamic State fighters in their takeover of Ramadi were not outnumbered and in fact showed “no will to fight,” Defense Secretary Ash Carter said Sunday, an indication that even a top-ranking administration official thinks President Obama’s plan to defeat the extremist group appears in trouble. 

The Iraqi forces outnumbered their opposition in Ramadi, the capital of Anbar province, in the battle last weekend, Carter said on CNN's "State of the Union.” 

“What apparently happened is the Iraqi forces just showed no will to fight,” he said. “They were not outnumbered. In fact, they vastly outnumbered the opposing force. That says to me, and I think to most of us, that we have an issue with the will of the Iraqis to fight ISIL and defend themselves." 

Hakim al-Zamili, the head of Iraq’s parliamentary defense and security committee, immediately responded to Carter’s comments, saying U.S. military commanders are pointing fingers for their own failure to properly support the Iraqi military in the fight against the Islamic State. 

He also said Carter's comments were "unrealistic and baseless" and that the U.S. military is trying to "throw the blame on somebody else." 

The fall of Ramadi, in central Iraq and about 70 miles west of the capital city of Baghdad, has sparked more questions about the effectiveness of the administration's approach in Iraq -- a blend of retraining and rebuilding the Iraqi Army, prodding Baghdad to reconcile with the nation's Sunnis and bombing Islamic State group targets from the air without committing American ground combat troops. _


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## Viper1 (May 24, 2015)

I haven't seen this much candor and honesty since Secretary of Defense Gates held the post.  Good on the SECDEF for telling it like it is.  It'll upset the Iraqi's but at this point our rhetoric can't be all roses and rainbows.


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## Brill (May 24, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> I haven't seen this much candor and honesty since Secretary of Defense Gates held the post.



Meaning his days are numbered.

*Obama Calls Loss Of Ramadi A 'Setback,' But Denies U.S. Is Losing To ISIS*
http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...di-a-setback-but-denies-u-s-is-losing-to-isis

Obama acknowledged in the interview that the U.S. is going to "have to ramp up not just training" of Iraqi forces in the country's Sunni areas, "but also commitment."


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## AWP (May 24, 2015)

Airstrikes are dropping bodies like cholera so that isn't an issue.


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## Dame (May 24, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> *Iraqi forces have no will to fight. *
> _The Iraqi forces defeated by Islamic State fighters in their takeover of Ramadi were not outnumbered and in fact showed “no will to fight,” Defense Secretary Ash Carter said Sunday, an indication that even a top-ranking administration official thinks *President Obama’s plan to defeat the extremist group* appears in trouble._


Even this is a political kowtow IMHO. Defeat them? Plan? I don't think he wants to defeat them. He sure isn't acting like it or talking like it.


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## poison (May 25, 2015)

Hakim al-Zamili, the head of Iraq’s parliamentary defense and security committee, immediately responded to Carter’s comments, saying U.S. military commanders are pointing fingers for their own failure to properly support the Iraqi military in the fight against the Islamic State. 

He also said Carter's comments were "unrealistic and baseless" and that the U.S. military is trying to "throw the blame on somebody else." 

Go fuck yourself, stop playing the victim game. 


On a separate note, is isis really heading for Jordan right now? I'd love to see Jordan unleash like we know they can, and have. Better yet, with Israeli support, in tandem.


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## AWP (May 25, 2015)

ISIS in Jordan would be as successful as ISIS in Alabama....


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## AWP (May 25, 2015)

Ordinarily a news release isn't a big deal, but I thought this was interesting for a few reasons:

1) The 332nd was the largest Wing in Iraq "back in the day."
2) You don't need a Wing unless you're dropping a number of flying squadrons under said Wing.
3) 





> “We are standing up a new wing, a traditional Air Expeditionary Wing,” said Kocheski. “*It’s large and expanding in the terms of mission sets.”*
> The wing will* eventually incorporate a rescue group* to support Operation Inherent Resolve within the wing’s area of operation. Then the *wing will also look to add an air advisory group* to assist the Iraqi air force, Iraqi army and aviation air defense grow and evolve.


 
Iraq Surge 2.0 in....3...2....

http://www.afcent.af.mil/News/Artic...32nd-air-expeditionary-wing-reactivation.aspx


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## Brill (May 25, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> *Airstrikes are dropping bodies* like cholera so that isn't an issue.



Source?  DOD is reporting only *20* strikes on 22 May.  I'm shocked that we're not in awe of the show of resolve.

http://www.defense.gov/news/newsarticle.aspx?id=128885


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## AWP (May 25, 2015)

lindy said:


> Source?  DOD is reporting only *20* strikes on 22 May.



I sent you a PM. Besides, if the DoD is reporting them then the numbers must be true...


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## Florida173 (May 25, 2015)

Feel free to pm me for contact info on highside if you have it. I can give you some basic updates on what's going on there.


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## Etype (May 26, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> Feel free to pm me for contact info on highside if you have it. I can give you some basic updates on what's going on there.


Uh, classified information is distribution on a need to know basis. I don't think curiosity brought on by an Internet thread translates to a need to know.


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## Florida173 (May 26, 2015)

Etype said:


> Uh, classified information is distribution on a need to know basis. I don't think curiosity brought on by an Internet thread translates to a need to know.



I think you might be misunderstanding what basic updates are, or have zero experience working on highside. Appreciate the reminder for everyone though.


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## Etype (May 26, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> I think you might be misunderstanding what basic updates are, or have zero experience working on highside. Appreciate the reminder for everyone though.


Maybe we should just list all of our caveats right here. Then we could have a sweet Internet forum pissing match.


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## poison (May 26, 2015)

http://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2015/06/01/journey-to-jihad

Pretty interesting.


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## CQB (May 26, 2015)

I'm seeing pics online of a lot of Daesh prisoners, allegedly from Ramadi.


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## pardus (May 26, 2015)

CQB said:


> I'm seeing pics online of a lot of Daesh prisoners, allegedly from Ramadi.



Interesting. I'd expect a lot more govt prisoners from that battle.


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## CQB (May 27, 2015)

Iraq's MoD announced that Da'ish is collapsing in Dujail, Sayid Gharib, Ishaqi and Kasarat towns (southern Salahuddin province).

Failure isn't fatal, success isn't final...
W. S. Churchill.


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## DA SWO (May 27, 2015)

pardus said:


> Interesting. I'd expect a lot more govt prisoners from that battle.


Hard to get captured when you are retreating at 60 mph.


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## Brill (May 27, 2015)

Interesting story.

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/27/w...n-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


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## DA SWO (May 27, 2015)

lindy said:


> Interesting story.
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/27/w...n-region&region=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0


A lot to agree with, not striking obvious targets is a big mistake, same mistakes made by the Clinton Administration


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## poison (May 27, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> A lot to agree with, not striking obvious targets is a big mistake, same mistakes made by the Clinton Administration



You can't win that one. Damned either way. Israel is up against it constantly. They took the finger off the trigger multiple times on sheikh Yassin because of civvies, his kids, etc. When they finally did it, there was collateral, and a massive outcry. 

Either you play to win, or you don't. On a human note, it's awful, but you can only avoid so much if winning is the agenda.


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## CQB (May 28, 2015)

Have to agree there. In bald figures Kosovo in 1999 had 250 missions per day, Iraq currently is about 10 per day. Leaving any other issue aside its not a lot. Perhaps the ROE has to change?


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## pardus (May 28, 2015)

CQB said:


> Have to agree there. In bald figures Kosovo in 1999 had 250 missions per day, Iraq currently is about 10 per day. Leaving any other issue aside its not a lot. Perhaps the ROE has to change?



The airstrikes are just a token to say "we are doing something". The fact that Ramadi fell is testimony to that.


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## AWP (May 28, 2015)

CQB said:


> Have to agree there. In bald figures Kosovo in 1999 had 250 missions per day, Iraq currently is about 10 per day. Leaving any other issue aside its not a lot. Perhaps the ROE has to change?



We're putting up more sorties than that, certainly more bombers, but not dropping....so something's rotten in Denmark. I will say that when we are releasing weapons they are effective. You are right though, we can do more.


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## RackMaster (May 28, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> We're putting up more sorties than that, certainly more bombers, but not dropping....so something's rotten in Denmark. I will say that when we are releasing weapons they are effective. You are right though, we can do more.



I know our pilots don't drop until a target is determined to have minimal collateral.  I'm sure the use of our guys on the ground to paint targets plays a role as well.


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## Brill (May 28, 2015)

AUMF held up in Congress? Hmmmm...

http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/05/congress-aumf-isis-war/394268/#


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## poison (May 28, 2015)

Why would any candidate commit to defining the parameters on the war on ISIS, if they didn't have to? I sure wouldn't.


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## DA SWO (May 28, 2015)

lindy said:


> AUMF held up in Congress? Hmmmm...
> 
> http://www.theatlantic.com/politics/archive/2015/05/congress-aumf-isis-war/394268/#


Both sides are being stupid.
Give him the authority you think is warranted, and let him veto if he wants.


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## CQB (May 29, 2015)

The one factor that both sides of the house need is the will to follow it through to the bitter end, if in fact the ROEs' change. IMO that is going to be extraordinarily difficult whoever is in the drivers seat. Whoever does so will have to take a lot of people with him or her on the journey.


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## Trev (Jun 2, 2015)

Michael Enright joined the Kurds. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/w...oins-kurdish-fighters-in-syria-taking-on-isil


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## pardus (Jun 2, 2015)

Trev said:


> Michael Enright joined the Kurds. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/w...oins-kurdish-fighters-in-syria-taking-on-isil



WOW, that is fucking awesome. Good for him!


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 4, 2015)

Nice job Iraqi "army", nice job. :wall:

http://www.foxnews.com/world/2015/0...seized-from-iraqis-in-fighting-near-fallujah/


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## DA SWO (Jun 4, 2015)

Cut the middleman out.

Pentagon To Bypass Iraqi Army And Supply ISIS Directly Read more: http://www.duffelblog.com/2015/06/pentagon-to-supply-isis-directly/#ixzz3c8uREfBk


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## pardus (Jun 4, 2015)

Anyone else find it ironic that "the closest thing to a Jew that has ever sat in the Oval Office" is the personal supplier of weapons and equipment to ISIS?


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## The Accountant (Jun 5, 2015)

They wouldn't need to take the military equipment in the first place if we just provided them jobs...


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 5, 2015)

Trev said:


> Michael Enright joined the Kurds. http://news.nationalpost.com/news/w...oins-kurdish-fighters-in-syria-taking-on-isil



A bit of an interesting twist on the story:

Call for 'unstable' British actor to be removed from Syria http://dailym.ai/1QaeOJ3


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## Marauder06 (Jun 5, 2015)

Iraq is a failed state.

http://www.havokjournal.com/world/isis-takes-ramadi-dam-did-we-lose-the-war/


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## Brill (Jun 5, 2015)

@Marauder06 , I'll see your Failed State and raise you a What They Want.

http://www.theatlantic.com/features/archive/2015/02/what-isis-really-wants/384980/

Long but interesting read...especially about the "requirements".


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## Tbone (Jun 10, 2015)

RIP....I have a feeling he won't be the last.
http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/is...ld-killed-fighting-against-isis-syria-n373066


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## pardus (Jun 11, 2015)

Tbone said:


> RIP....I have a feeling he won't be the last.
> http://www.nbcnews.com/storyline/is...ld-killed-fighting-against-isis-syria-n373066



Good for him, but this is only important if it spurs the USA to get more involved in this particular conflict.


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## racing_kitty (Jun 11, 2015)

It won't.


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## pardus (Jun 11, 2015)

racing_kitty said:


> It won't.



Agreed. The media/public think a single life is important. It is not in the grant scheme of things.


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## Tbone (Jun 11, 2015)

pardus said:


> Agreed. The media/public think a single life is important. It is not in the grant scheme of things.


The only reason I found this significant is because he is the first to die as a fighter and not a journalist. And no it won't cause the USA to do anything. I think it's telling that you don't see this on the front of news like you saw Sotloff or Foley......nobody really cares.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 12, 2015)

Yep.



> In the end, our policy of training Iraqi forces is deeply flawed and will ultimately fail because of the simple fact that you can’t train into people what many of my SOF brethren have called “the give-a-shit factor.”



http://www.havokjournal.com/politics/ali-wont-fight/


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## Grunt (Jun 12, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> Yep.
> 
> 
> 
> http://www.havokjournal.com/politics/ali-wont-fight/



Yep...you can train them in the best way you know how. You can supply them with the best equipment and technology that you possess. 

But, you can't put into them a "fight" that doesn't exist whether out of "fear" or simply "I don't want to." 

Two of the worst qualities in a "fighter"...unhealthy fear and laziness.


----------



## pardus (Jun 12, 2015)

Agoge said:


> Yep...you can train them in the best way you know how. You can supply them with the best equipment and technology that you possess.
> 
> But, you can't put into them a "fight" that doesn't exist whether out of "fear" or simply "I don't want to."
> 
> Two of the worst qualities in a "fighter"...unhealthy fear and laziness.



I was telling someone this just last night.


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## DA SWO (Jun 12, 2015)

The Generals are still claiming the Iraqi's are capable and willing if they have good trainers.

Funny, the captains (now Maj/LTC) doing the training were candid in their assessment that the Iraqis would run at first fight (or was it light )


----------



## Ranger Psych (Jun 12, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> The Generals are still claiming the Iraqi's are capable and willing if they have good trainers.
> 
> Funny, the captains (now Maj/LTC) doing the training were candid in their assessment that the Iraqis would run at first fight (or was it light )



Sure about that, Odierno just said the exact opposite...  http://news.yahoo.com/us-army-chief-futile-send-150-000-soldiers-180626655.html


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## Tbone (Jun 12, 2015)

Ranger Psych said:


> Sure about that, Odierno just said the exact opposite...  http://news.yahoo.com/us-army-chief-futile-send-150-000-soldiers-180626655.html


We don't want to mindlessly throw ourselves into the gauntlet, but at some point you have to look at all the death and destruction that could happen while you are "deciding to go the political route." Jihadi Jafar and his RPG don't care what kind of "political reforms" you are working on. On a side note isn't it counter-productive to throw the weight on the Iraqis(who have proven that they can't and won't shoulder said weight) and not explain what you could do to assist the process of government reform?


----------



## Brill (Jun 12, 2015)

THE problem is the Commander in Chief has not issued an overall strategy so the combatant commander has ZERO direction other than apparently maintain "our" man in Baghdad.  Obama's legacy is on the line.

This is turning into a cluster.


----------



## Tbone (Jun 12, 2015)

lindy said:


> THE problem is the Commander in Chief has not issued an overall strategy so the combatant commander has ZERO direction other than apparently maintain "our" man in Baghdad.  Obama's legacy is on the line.
> 
> This is turning into a cluster.


Ha! I'd say this has been a cluster for some time now...


----------



## Brill (Jun 13, 2015)

@poison , I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on whether Israelis would support intervention to assist/save the Druze in Syria.

http://www.i24news.tv/en/opinion/74...he-druze-in-syria-create-an-independent-state


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## Marauder06 (Jun 13, 2015)

I was in Israel a little over a week ago and we saw a short battle kick off just inside the Lebanon side of the border.  It was at a distance and I have no idea who was fighting, but somebody got PUMMELED with arty and heavy MG.  I suspect someone Israel didn't like got a little too close to the border.  This was near a Druze enclave in the Golan.


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## poison (Jun 13, 2015)

lindy said:


> @poison , I'd be interested to hear your thoughts on whether Israelis would support intervention to assist/save the Druze in Syria.
> 
> http://www.i24news.tv/en/opinion/74...he-druze-in-syria-create-an-independent-state



Intervention by who? As much as I wish they would, there's no way they can put boots on the ground in Syria, at this point.


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## poison (Jun 15, 2015)

http://www.timesofisrael.com/israel-weighs-safe-zone-for-syrias-embattled-druze/

I'm sure Israel is heavily involved covert action in Syria. But 'saving'  anyone requires more,it will be interesting to see what they do. In the past, South Lebanon for example, the South Lebanon army helped Israel, but when Israel pulled out they got left high and dry, and many got screwed for being collaborators. In my grunt mind, it's unacceptable, and I wish it was different. I suspect the same can happen in Syria, though the presence of so many Druze in the Golan, who's families are under the gun within eyesight, changes things. The south Lebanese army didn't have half their families in Israel.


----------



## poison (Jun 17, 2015)

There's an interesting read on the Druze situation on debka, fwiw. Basically  it says the druze have 3 options: Iran will help them set up a small army in return for not helping the assad opposition; Israel will arm them; or they'll all flee to Israel and Jordan. It also said the spectre of Druze IDF soldiers simply walking across the border, in large quantities, is a looming issue, if Israel doesn't do the right thing. If Israel allows Iran to fill in the void, it'll be a colossal failure.


----------



## CQB (Jun 17, 2015)

Daesh have no backing from a major power, they are in a spot with numbers as the Shia outnumber them. It's no wonder they're trying to grab every two bit punk wannabe from elsewhere to come and play. They'll go slowly, but they will be a glorious failure.


----------



## poison (Jun 17, 2015)

It's painful to watch.


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## CQB (Jun 17, 2015)

I'm thinking out loud: when the last wagons are in a circle, the glorious few who are left are preparing for their final whatever, some little nerd will pop up and say, "What about their human rights!"


----------



## x SF med (Jun 17, 2015)

CQB said:


> I'm thinking out loud: when the last wagons are in a circle, the glorious few who are left are preparing for their final whatever, some little nerd will pop up and say, "What about their human rights!"



Correct response to that, IMHO, "Prove to me they're human."


----------



## Phoenix15 (Jun 19, 2015)

Everyone's aware of Daesh's visible sources of income (taxes, extortion, black market oil trade) but I was wondering what this community thinks about the "dark money" they are receiving. Ghost Wars by Steve Coll had surprisingly comprehensive data in terms of who was funding Al Qaeda in their early days and how much they were "donating". My questions for this forum:

- Although highly unlikely, is it possible that ISIS is receiving very little outside funding and operating their "state" off of their visible sources of income?

- More likely, they are supported by dark money but any ballpark ideas of what percent of their operational expenses is supplemented by donors?

- For example, lets imagine a wealthy Sunni Saudi with a fairly radical agenda wants to donate to a jihadi cause. Is the average wealthy Saudi onboard with ISIS's establishment of a caliphate or more inline with Qaeda's opinion that the jihad is in too early of a stage to claim territory?

-  And more specifically, how much does ISIS receive in comparison to the amount Al Qaeda received in their early days? How much has 2 decades of western war and the expanded media presence of jihad increased the market for potential sources of funding? Is it to the point where the complete eradication of a physical jihadi state is near impossible?


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## Brill (Jun 19, 2015)

£240 million From Mosul alone?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...-trained-and-operating-in-Iraq-and-Syria.html


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## Etype (Jun 19, 2015)

Mosul and Bayji produce plenty of oil wealth. The "important" folks in Iraq (post-Saddam) just didn't like much, if any, of it to going to the military. They thought the foreign aid would always be there, and now their two money makers are gone.


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## Brill (Jun 22, 2015)

Four Lions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?t=41&v=Ew-SrlQ9tlI


----------



## racing_kitty (Jun 22, 2015)

^^I love that movie!  Funny as hell.


----------



## CQB (Jun 22, 2015)

Essential viewing for all jihadis.


----------



## poison (Jun 23, 2015)

Yeah, pretty good flick. not too far off, a lot of the time, either. Loads of fail among them.

The Israeli Druze are really pissed off:

http://www.theguardian.com/world/20...li-druze-attack-military-ambulance-say-police

My bet is they were right, and Israel is going to have a very hard time reconciling Israel's needs with the Druze' wants.


----------



## CQB (Jun 26, 2015)

Interesting observation...

Former prime minister and defense minister Ehud Barak was interviewed by Russian media outlet RT on Friday. He stated that it is his belief that the Islamic State "is not strong" and with an appropriate response, it would be possible to suppress and destroy ISIS within a matter of days.

"I think that ISIS is successful to a certain extent because they are not facing a concentrated effort to destroy the organization," said Barak, adding "Technically they aren't that strong- they are made up of only about 30-40 thousand people."

http://www.jpost.com/Middle-East/Fo...ld-defeat-ISIS-in-a-matter-of-two-days-407229


----------



## pardus (Jun 26, 2015)

CQB said:


> Interesting observation...
> 
> Former prime minister and defense minister Ehud Barak was interviewed by Russian media outlet RT on Friday. He stated that it is his belief that the Islamic State "is not strong" and with an appropriate response, it would be possible to suppress and destroy ISIS within a matter of days.
> 
> ...



I tend to agree. Faced with a first world army they would crumble, and they are very vulnerable as they are not an insurgent group, they are effectively a standing army. 
One western division could wipe them out give the time to cover the territory.


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 27, 2015)

How many loses are we willing to take?
I also doubt you could clear a city like Ramadi in a matter of days?
Siege warfare to limit friendly KIA?


----------



## AWP (Jun 27, 2015)

You could break ISIS, but you'd still have two semi-failed states and the ISIS ideology left behind. We'd have to destroy them and then go back to Occupation 2.0 to prevent a resurgence. We might be willing to do one, but I doubt Iraq, Syria, or the American people would sign off on the other.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 27, 2015)

I cannot get past this pic> not even trying to hide - fuck -

Serious question, if you happen to be on a beach in Minnesota see this, and happen to be carrying, what do you do?  Take cover?  Shoot?

Honestly my initial reaction is that he is some Starbucks/Chipotle asshole who wants to show that he can carry whenever/where ever he wants - til the bullets start flying.

Fuck.  Those folks had no chance.


----------



## CQB (Jun 28, 2015)

Seems the people in the background were pretty brave. 

Britain's _Independent_ newspaper reported that Mr Yeoman's wife heard about the human barricade from another holidaymaker once they had returned to Manchester. That person, who had been on the beach at the time, also told Mrs Yeoman about the Tunisian chef who had tried to warn them of the unfolding horror.

"He was the one who told them that the line of people they could see ahead of them were staff from the hotel," Mrs Yeoman said.

"He said to this couple that they were telling the gunman: 'You'll have to get past us and we're Muslims.' Obviously I don't know the exact words but that was pretty much what they were saying.

"They'd actually made a human barricade - 'You're not going to get past us, you'll have to kill us.' "

Another British man on vacation at the beach wrote to Mr Yeoman to corroborate his account of the drama, the _Independent_ reported.

"I'm with you - was on beach at Palm marina - whilst we were running to hide, hotel staff were running out to help, very brave," Ian Symes wrote.

A report in the British _Telegraph_ newspaper identified jet-ski merchant Ibrahim el Ghoul as a local hero who had thrown stones at Rezgui.

According to the report, the 18-year-old ran up the beach towards where the attack was taking place, trying to bundle fleeing tourists into a boat before going after Rezgui on a jet-ski.

"The first thing I thought was: 'This is my work and I have to protect the guests,' " Mr el Ghoul told the paper.

http://www.smh.com.au/world/tunisia...h-terror-victims-reports-20150629-gi08fp.html


----------



## Rapid (Jun 29, 2015)

Sadly, this will kill their main source of revenue, their main way of earning an honest living. Not that I would have been holidaying there myself right now, but yeah...


----------



## CQB (Jun 29, 2015)

Yes, in the short term as tourism is a big earner for them, as discussed. It looks to be a fairly open society though. The reaction to the event was swift. Govt closed all mosques, rolled out army reserves. Daesh looks for fault lines in communities. & IMO this for Daesh looks to be a poor choice. A stable govt., a standing army, it doesn't look like a failing state, their usual stock in trade.


----------



## Rapid (Jun 30, 2015)

Yes, the country will keep moving forward. The resorts affected by this... not so sure how they will fare for the next year or so. Thankfully for them, the Western public has a pretty short term memory... so hopefully they'll be able to tough it out for a few seasons.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 30, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Yes, the country will keep moving forward. The resorts affected by this... not so sure how they will fare for the next year or so. Thankfully for them, the Western public has a pretty short term memory... so hopefully they'll be able to tough it out for a few seasons.



Shit right now is probably one of the safer times to go.


----------



## Rapid (Jun 30, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Shit right now is probably one of the safer times to go.



...is probably what some of those Westerners were thinking since 20 tourists were butchered in a Tunisian museum not so long ago this year.

Sure, I can see the reasoning. There'd be heightened security and all, especially in the immediate aftermath, but it's still no guarantee of safety. Plus I'm not sure if all the security measures would make for a very relaxing or care-free holiday. There are plenty of other nice destinations in the world, but as holiday packages in Tunisia (and elsewhere in the region) have been getting cheaper and cheaper, that's what has kept the tourists flowing. They get a temporary bump in the road like this every so often, but it will be back to business as usual after a while.

There's always a risk-reward ratio. Hell, if you lower the price enough, you could get Brits to walk into Mordor... as long as you promise them lots of sun and cheap booze.

Nowhere is technically 100% "safe" for a Westerner these days, and people shouldn't be basing all their plans around the fear of an attack (since that's giving in to terrorism)... but I reckon there's definitely some merit in people doing risk assessments of their potential destinations (then choosing to accept the risk or not, but at least being fully aware of it). I bet a holiday in Greece would've sounded pretty good to some of those people in hindsight. Most of the public here are absolutely, hopelessly clueless when it comes to the topic of the dangers of traveling abroad.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 30, 2015)

I was mostly joking.


----------



## CQB (Jun 30, 2015)

In other news, another Aussie died, this time with the Kurds. It seems he stepped on a land mine. Vale.


----------



## CQB (Jul 7, 2015)

Meanwhile...
BEIRUT — A great part of the Syrian province of Homs has fallen into the hands of the Islamic State (IS) following the fall of Palmyra. Amid these developments, Lebanon is focusing on Homs. Meanwhile, the Syrian army has been regaining control over the Qalamoun barren lands since May.
Although several parts of Syria are plagued by the fighting, the fact remains that IS is focused on Homs province, which is significant for several important factors, Syrian security sources told Al-Monitor on condition of anonymity.

If the terrorist organization wins this battle, it will control Syria’s center. Moreover, Homs is close to Damascus and consequently considered the last step before the major battle in the capital. More important, this province has common borders with Iraq, Jordan, Turkey and Lebanon. Its fall, according to military logic, could mean the return of border villages to IS’ control, which would lead to northern Lebanon. For all these reasons, IS seeking to overthrow Homs again, after the Syrian regime tightened its control over it in the Krak des Chevaliers battle in March 2014, two years after its occupation by militants.

Homs is an extension to the Syrian desert, located in southeast Syria and including eastern Jordan, western Iraq and northern Saudi Arabia. IS controls the Iraqi part of this desert and is looking to control the Syrian part of it — meaning Homs — to link it to the Iraqi land and secure the necessary ground for the establishment of the IS project.

http://www.al-monitor.com/pulse/ori...l&utm_term=0_28264b27a0-3f03933af4-102467069#


----------



## poison (Jul 8, 2015)

I was reading an article about the fierce fighting in the sinai, and noticed an offhanded quote from an Egyptian general: Isis exploited weaknesses in the Egyptian military, and was directed towards those weaknesses by foreign gov'ts. 

Now who is he referring to? Iran comes to mind, but Iran and ISIS aren't exactly comfortable together. Odd.


----------



## CQB (Jul 8, 2015)

I'd take a punt and say Turkey.


----------



## poison (Jul 8, 2015)

Why Turkey?


----------



## CQB (Jul 8, 2015)

Just a hunch really, the Turkey/Syria border is porous in parts & there has been in some quarters talk of tacit approval of Daesh in Turkey.
Also look at the other nations, Israel,
Iraq, Lebanon, Saudi, Iran, Syria, Jordan. For various reasons they're not on the side of Daesh. As I said it's just a hunch.


----------



## poison (Jul 8, 2015)

I thought Turkey knows they have a border issue, and weren't on board with it. Huh. What a wild card these IS fools are...


----------



## RackMaster (Jul 9, 2015)

poison said:


> Why Turkey?



This is from May and I doubt things have changed to much...

http://www.businessinsider.com/turkey-playing-a-double-game-with-isis-2015-5


----------



## poison (Jul 9, 2015)

Thanks.


----------



## AWP (Jul 10, 2015)

I wouldn't be surprised if Turkey helped ISIS just to offset the Kurds. You usually don't call for your own nation when fighting for your life. Killing/ disrupting the Kurds is a win for Turkey.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 16, 2015)

1.ISIS - Annual Turnover $2 Billion  - In Photos: The World’s 10 Richest Terrorist Organizations

IS turns through 2 bullion a year. A billion more than Hamas.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 19, 2015)

As America continues it obsession with TMZ, Hollywood, etc - "this" is happening. 

'They beat us everywhere': Inside ISIS training camps for terror's next generation
_
SANLIURFA, Turkey –  The children had all been shown videos of beheadings and told by their trainers with the Islamic State group (ISIS) that they would perform one someday. First, they had to practice technique. The more than 120 boys were each given a doll and a sword and told, cut off its head.

A 14-year-old who was among the boys, all abducted from Iraq's Yazidi religious minority, said he couldn't cut it right. He chopped once, twice, three times._


----------



## AWP (Jul 26, 2015)

Good old Turkey...

White House says Turkey has right to defend itself after Kurdish attacks



> The White House said late Saturday Turkey has the right to defend itself against terror attacks by Kurdish rebels, after bombing Kurds in northern Iraq.



Turkey couples IS bombing runs with striking Kurdish targets



> Now, Turkish warplanes are directly targeting IS locations — the latest bombing run coming early Saturday for a second straight day. Turkey then opened a second front on Kurdish rebel sites.



Hey, can we use your bases to bomb ISIS?
Will you look the other way when we bomb the Kurds?
Look the other way? We'll sanction it in the press.
We look forward to increasing your presence at Incirlik.


----------



## RackMaster (Jul 26, 2015)

Crazy Aussies!


> A group of ordinary Australians literally came under fire during filming for the third season of the award-winning series _Go Back To Where You Came From_ — by Islamic State militants.



Reality TV stars shot at by IS


----------



## CQB (Jul 29, 2015)

Just finished watching tonights' offering. Cooking, singing, renovating a house, meh, that's not reality TV.


----------



## Brill (Aug 6, 2015)

Math to predict IS movements and trends?

ABSTRACT

The Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham (ISIS) is a dominant insurgent group operating in Iraq and Syria that rose to prominence when it took over Mosul in June, 2014. In this paper, we present a data-driven approach to analyzing this group using a dataset consisting of 2200 incidents of mili- tary activity surrounding ISIS and the forces that oppose it (including Iraqi, Syrian, and the American-led coalition). We combine ideas from logic programming and causal rea- soning to mine for association rules for which we present evidence of causality. We present relationships that link ISIS vehicle-bourne improvised explosive device (VBIED) activity in Syria with military operations in Iraq, coalition air strikes, and ISIS IED activity, as well as rules that may serve as indicators of spikes in indirect fire, suicide attacks, and arrests. 


http://arxiv.org/pdf/1508.01192v1.pdf


----------



## CQB (Aug 6, 2015)

Interesting.


----------



## poison (Aug 7, 2015)

Can't someone do something like that for my wife?


----------



## AWP (Aug 7, 2015)

And we're cashing that check for betraying the Kurds.

US moving F-16s to Turkey



> Additionally, a search-and-rescue team of elite Air Force pararescuemen, also known as "PJs," with their support helicopters and crews will be moved into position after the fighters arrive. Other planes will also be added to the package. U.S. Air Force refueling planes such as KC-135s will also be sent to Turkey to increase the on-station time for the F-16s flying over Syria.


----------



## Brill (Aug 8, 2015)

Tough to argue against the points made in this paper.

"In the 11 months since President Barack Obama committed the United States to “degrade and ultimately destroy” the so-called Islamic State of Iraq and al Sham (ISIS), the group has expanded its international reach, metastasized to form offshoots across multiple regions, and increased its perceived momentum.

Although U.S. government officials cite a reduction in the overall size of the group’s sanctuary in Iraq and Syria and the killing of thousands of ISIS fighters, the fall of Ramadi and much of Anbar province to the Islamic State served as a wake-up call that current efforts to counter ISIS are not adequate to the task.

Meanwhile, the threat posed by the terrorist group to Americans at home and abroad appears to be growing as ISIS-inspired individuals conduct attacks targeting Westerners around the globe, including here in the United States. And *the U.S. intelligence community reportedly assesses that despite almost a year of airstrikes, the Islamic State remains no weaker and no smaller in number than it was at the campaign’s outset."*

http://www.cnas.org/sites/default/files/publications-pdf/CNAS_Combatting-ISIS_Flournoy-Fontaine.pdf


----------



## poison (Aug 8, 2015)

Were committed to destroying isis and the Iranian nuclear program. Winkwink


----------



## Brill (Aug 11, 2015)

Unsure of their methods but not a bad bit of open source:

About Us - Independent Strategy and Intelligence Study Group

Soup Sandwich: Obama and His National Security Team Have no Plan to Combat ISIS - Independent Strategy and Intelligence Study Group


----------



## CQB (Aug 11, 2015)

I'm not so sure. It looks to be more opinion than anything else, with the posted article anyway.


----------



## Brill (Aug 11, 2015)

CQB said:


> I'm not so sure. It looks to be more opinion than anything else, with the posted article anyway.



Agree though the overall site doesn't seem too bad.


----------



## The Hate Ape (Aug 13, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> And we're cashing that check for betraying the Kurds.
> 
> US moving F-16s to Turkey


 
Are we really betraying the Kurds though? I thought the Turkey/Kurdish conflict resided between the host nation and PKK (Kurdistan Workers Union) aka the Guerilla faction that Barzani himself describes as an overbearing separatist organization that pushes Kurdish values using the wrong methods and ideologies. Barzani as well as the prime minister (right hand guy) even describes the actions by the PKK as potential disrupters of Kurdistan progress overall. The only catch here is that both the Peshmerga (led by Barzani) and the PKK are against ISIS, Turkey as well as Baghdad/Remenants of Iraqi forces are against ISIS, yet Turkey continues to strike PKK camps.

Even more odd, the PKK uses guerilla warfare / insurgency tactics against a nations force for influence on the government vice influence on the population. A total contradiction of IW.

Fucking weird and I personally can't comprehend it fully.

R/

H/A


----------



## AWP (Aug 13, 2015)

The Hate Ape said:


> Are we really betraying the Kurds though? I thought the Turkey/Kurdish conflict resided between the host nation and PKK (Kurdistan Workers Union) aka the Guerilla faction that Barzani himself describes as an overbearing separatist organization that pushes Kurdish values using the wrong methods and ideologies. Barzani as well as the prime minister (right hand guy) even describes the actions by the PKK as potential disrupters of Kurdistan progress overall. The only catch here is that both the Peshmerga (led by Barzani) and the PKK are against ISIS, Turkey as well as Baghdad/Remenants of Iraqi forces are against ISIS, yet Turkey continues to strike PKK camps.
> 
> Even more odd, the PKK uses guerilla warfare / insurgency tactics against a nations force for influence on the government vice influence on the population. A total contradiction of IW.
> 
> ...



Turkey hates the Kurds and maybe they will confine their strikes to "just" the PKK, but the Turks' history makes me skeptical. We've also either encouraged the PKK to fight ISIS or looked the other way. The PKK has detractors within the Kurdish community, but is also used at times when needed; the Kurds look the other way when it benefits them.

"One man's terrorist is another man's freedom fighter" I think we wouldn't bother to label the PKK as terrorists if we didn't need Turkey's support.

Ultimately, weakening the PKK undermines the Kurd's overall position or standing. We allow Turkey to bomb people indirectly helping us (we clearly weren't concerned about the bad, bad PKK when northern Iraq was being overrun) which weakens a group advocating for independence from Turkey. We come across as hypocrites and there will be a day when host nations think about the Hmong, Iraq 1991, Iraq 2011, Afghanistan 20-whatever, etc. and tell us to go pound sand.


----------



## x SF med (Aug 13, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Turkey hates the Kurds and maybe they will confine their strikes to "just" the PKK, but the Turks' history makes me skeptical.



Yup, Kamil Attaturk....  just saying.  I agree with you.


----------



## CQB (Aug 15, 2015)

Interesting development from Al-Monitor.

Tensions between Kurdish forces and the Iraqi military factor in as well. “If we go on the offense on our own, there will be problems,” Mara’an declared. "We need to avoid sensitivity between Arabs and Kurds." On Mosul, one of IS’ largest cities in Iraq, he had this to say: “If we attack Mosul, [the Iraqi government] will say it's Arab land. Therefore, we need coordination with the Iraqi army.”

Finally, concerns of friendly fire appear to compel the peshmerga and their allies to not move the front line forward. “There are other front lines. If we advance, we will be ahead of other lines. We have to be in one alignment,” said Samer Anwya, a Dwekh Nawsha soldier from the base in Baqofah.




Read more: Peshmerga 'ready' to advance on IS - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East


----------



## Brill (Aug 23, 2015)

I hope this will cause hope & change within the USG.

Terrorist networks, such as al Qaeda, generally have only dozens or hundreds of members, attack civilians, do not hold territory, and cannot directly confront military forces. ISIS, on the other hand, boasts some 30,000 fighters, holds territory in both Iraq and Syria, maintains extensive military capabilities, controls lines of communication, commands infrastructure, funds itself, and engages in sophisticated military operations. If ISIS is purely and simply anything, it is a pseudo-state led by a conventional army. And that is why the counterterrorism and counterinsurgency strategies that greatly diminished the threat from al Qaeda will not work against ISIS.

ISIS Is Not a Terrorist Group


----------



## CQB (Aug 23, 2015)

Agreed, it is a state as described. It even raises taxes and provides utilities. Even if no other nation recognises it as a state, it still is. It should be wiped out to a man, but the appalling tragedy is that it's no-ones' priority to remove it.


----------



## poison (Aug 24, 2015)

News - Report: Israel imports 77% of its oil from Iraqi Kurdistan

This is good.


----------



## poison (Aug 25, 2015)

Kurdish oil is another Netanyahu-Obama head-to-head front

I know, debka. But what say ye?


----------



## pardus (Aug 25, 2015)

poison said:


> Kurdish oil is another Netanyahu-Obama head-to-head front
> 
> I know, debka. But what say ye?



History tells me that if Obama is against it, then it's probably a good idea.


----------



## poison (Aug 26, 2015)

I hope it's true. Israel has been helping the kurds for years on a smaller scale, now seems like a good time to ratchet that right up.


----------



## AWP (Aug 26, 2015)

Is anyone shocked?

Pentagon watchdog probing whether anti-ISIS campaign analysis altered



> The Defense Department's inspector general is investigating whether intelligence reports about the progress of the U.S.-led coalition's campaign against ISIS in Iraq have been "skewed" to be more optimistic.


----------



## CDG (Aug 26, 2015)

I, for one, am absolutely shocked that senior officials would do something like this.  It is unprecedented for people well removed from the ground to rework the intel coming off the battlefield in order to paint a rosy picture for the bosses.  I mean, everyone just wants the truth, regardless of how that makes some high-ranking personnel look after they have contradictory statements.  The facts have ALWAYS been what mattered most to the brass.


----------



## Kraut783 (Aug 28, 2015)

Sorry, couldn't resist


----------



## Florida173 (Aug 28, 2015)

CDG said:


> I, for one, am absolutely shocked that senior officials would do something like this.  It is unprecedented for people well removed from the ground to rework the intel coming off the battlefield in order to paint a rosy picture for the bosses.  I mean, everyone just wants the truth, regardless of how that makes some high-ranking personnel look after they have contradictory statements.  The facts have ALWAYS been what mattered most to the brass.



It's a policy and political thing.


----------



## CDG (Aug 28, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> It's a policy and political thing.


----------



## Rapid (Aug 28, 2015)

No need to go to Iraq or Syria to meet IS-inspired terrorists. As seen recently, Europe is the perfect hotbed.

*French intelligence fears Islamist 'missile strike on airliner' or 9/11-style attack*

* Army prepares for civil unrest as Islamist threat grows amid fears of September 11-style attack or missile strike on passenger airliner *

*Link:* French intelligence fears Islamist 'missile strike on airliner' or 9/11-style attack

French security forces are bracing for the eventuality of civil unrest and fear there could be a missile strike on a passenger airliner or a September 11-style attack, according to sources close to French intelligence.
*
“Airlines have been warned of a possible attack on a plane with an anti-tank missile,”* a source told The Telegraph. “But pilots are unsure how to take evasive action.”

After Friday’s thwarted attempt to massacre passengers on an Amsterdam-Paris train and a series of terrorist attacks and attempted killings in France this year, President François Hollande warned the nation to prepare for more violence, considered inevitable as the Islamist threat grows.

*The army has made contingency plans for the “reappropriation of national territory”, meaning to win back control of neighbourhoods where the population become hostile to the security forces and where guns are easily obtainable, according to the source. *

“There are a lot of alienated and angry fourth-generation immigrant kids in the suburbs and the prospect of radicalisation is increasingly likely,” the source said.

“The idea that attacks like the one on the train are carried out by individuals acting on their own is not credible. We’re dealing with highly-organised networks of militant Islamists embarked on a campaign of violence and determined to intensify it.”

Kalashnikov automatic rifles -- used by the train gunman and Islamist terrorists who killed 17 people in Paris in January -- and anti-tank missiles are now obtainable in France. Many were smuggled in from the former Yugoslavia after the Balkan wars in the 1990s. More weapons have come in from Libya, the sources said, adding that organised crime and terrorist groups were working together to procure them.


----------



## Rapid (Aug 28, 2015)

But surely the situation will improve after an estimated *800,000* people from Africa and the Middle East will arrive in _Germany alone_, just this year.

Feeling strain, Germany set to raise asylum-seeker forecast to 750,000

Oh, and those are only official government estimates, so an 'honest' estimate would blow those figures through the roof.













European socialists and the media are working overtime to make this all seem like some kind of wonderful 'cultural enrichment' though. You couldn't even make this shit up, it's just too ridiculous.


----------



## Rapid (Sep 5, 2015)

Here's a little imgur album of Russian soldiers in Syria:

Russian soldiers in Syria


----------



## Brill (Sep 5, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Here's a little imgur album of Russian soldiers in Syria:
> 
> Russian soldiers in Syria



They look like their version of Marines (Naval Infantry).


----------



## AWP (Sep 6, 2015)

Another aspect to IS' legacy:
Here Are the Ancient Sites ISIS Has Damaged and Destroyed



> The destruction is part of a propaganda campaign that includes videos of militants rampaging through Iraq's Mosul Museum with pickaxes and sledgehammers, and the dynamiting of centuries-old Christian and Muslim shrines.



Because, you know, no one would benefit from a bunch of old ricks and stuff, right? Bonus points for these douchebags:


> The group  claims the destruction of ancient sites is religiously motivated; Its militants have targeted well-known ancient sites along with more modern graves and shrines belonging to other Muslim sects, citing idol worship to justify their actions. *At the same time, ISIS has used looting as a moneymaking venture to finance military operations.*



Yeah, you can't have that stuff around because it doesn't mesh with your worldview....BUT you can make money from them so that's okay?


----------



## pardus (Sep 6, 2015)

Rapid said:


> But surely the situation will improve after an estimated *800,000* people from Africa and the Middle East will arrive in _Germany alone_, just this year.
> 
> Feeling strain, Germany set to raise asylum-seeker forecast to 750,000
> 
> ...



Holy shit! Europe is fucked!



Freefalling said:


> Another aspect to IS' legacy:
> Here Are the Ancient Sites ISIS Has Damaged and Destroyed
> 
> Because, you know, no one would benefit from a bunch of old ricks and stuff, right? Bonus points for these douchebags:
> ...



That really is a great loss to humanity.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Sep 6, 2015)

The prime reason for migrations of this magnitude, is war. The last time was WW II (aka, the last big one we won).....just saying.


----------



## AWP (Sep 7, 2015)

Rapid said:


> But surely the situation will improve after an estimated *800,000* people from Africa and the Middle East will arrive in _Germany alone_, just this year.
> 
> European socialists and the media are working overtime to make this all seem like some kind of wonderful 'cultural enrichment' though. You couldn't even make this shit up, it's just too ridiculous.



Then you'll love this angle:

At a Berlin church, Muslim refugees converting in droves



> Like Zonoobi, most say true belief prompted their embrace of Christianity. But there's no overlooking the fact that the decision will also greatly boost their chances of winning asylum by allowing them to claim they would face persecution if sent home.


----------



## Rapid (Sep 7, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Then you'll love this angle:
> 
> At a Berlin church, Muslim refugees converting in droves



http://www.ctvnews.ca/world/some-mi...laim-to-be-syrian-in-bid-for-asylum-1.2550509

*Some migrants shed true nationalities, claim to be Syrian in bid for asylum*

A Pakistani identity card in the bushes, a Bangladeshi one in a cornfield. A torn Iraqi driver's license bearing the photo of a man with a Saddam-style moustache, another one with a scarfed woman displaying a shy smile. Documents scattered only meters from Serbia's border with Hungary provide evidence that many of the migrants flooding Europe to escape war or poverty are scrapping their true nationalities and likely assuming new ones, just as they enter the European Union. Many of those travellers believe that using a fake document -- or having none at all -- gives them a better of chance of receiving asylum in Germany and other western European states. That's because the surest route to asylum is to be a refugee from war and not an economic migrant fleeing poverty. That fact has led to a huge influx of people claiming to be Syrian.



Red Flag 1 said:


> The prime reason for migrations of this magnitude, is war. The last time was WW II (aka, the last big one we won).....just saying.



That may be the cause, but it's not a reason to take in millions of people who have no hope of integrating, and who will further ghetto-ize parts of Europe, not to mention drastically increase extremism and terrorism. We can't have hundreds of thousands of people swarming our borders like locusts (please see the video here: End Times: Europe crumbles under the devastating Impact of Mass Immigration ), yet that is exactly what's happening.

There has to be order. There has to be some kind of border control so we know who these people are. As you can see above, a lot of these people aren't even fleeing any kind of war -- they're only saying they're Syrian to get in. Genuine asylum seekers should be applying for asylum from our foreign embassies in safe countries like Turkey, where the verity of their claims can be taken into account, not by storming our beaches.

Europe is either on its way to total cultural suicide, or something that will end very violently.


----------



## Brill (Sep 7, 2015)

Interesting notes about Ibrahim Awwad Ibrahim al-Badri.

The believer: How an introvert became the leader of the Islamic State


----------



## Gunz (Sep 8, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Here's a little imgur album of Russian soldiers in Syria:
> 
> Russian soldiers in Syria


 

And I thought only Russian sailors wore striped wife-beaters.


----------



## Rapid (Sep 8, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> And I thought only Russian sailors wore striped wife-beaters.



I pretty much just copied the photo album's title without thinking too much about it. Haven't really gone back to ascertain exactly who they are, just thought it was interesting.

But regarding your post, Russian VDV (airborne troops) are also known for those blue striped tops.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 8, 2015)

Reminds me of these guys.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 9, 2015)

Rapid said:


> I pretty much just copied the photo album's title without thinking too much about it. Haven't really gone back to ascertain exactly who they are, just thought it was interesting.
> 
> But regarding your post, Russian VDV (airborne troops) are also known for those blue striped tops.


 

They might be standard issue for all Russian military. All I know is that they wore them in _The Hunt for Red October.  _If I had to wear one I'd worry about a bullet in the thorax.


----------



## pardus (Sep 9, 2015)

*Kayla Mueller murdered by IS, says Yazidi former sex slave*


US hostage Kayla Mueller was murdered by Islamic State militants, and not killed in a coalition airstrike as IS claims, according to a Yazidi woman who escaped after being held as a sex slave - one of thousands of women and girls enslaved by IS. 


Two Yazidi eyewitnesses have also told the BBC that Ms Mueller was used by the IS leader himself as one of his personal sex slaves. 


No surprise at all to me. Filthy pricks.


----------



## poison (Sep 10, 2015)

Too bad that came out, that won't help her parents sleep at night.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 10, 2015)

Agreed @poison - I have actually been trying to avoid stories on her - does not help when f-ing Daily Mail puts the ugly details in their headline and then say "disturbing details inside".  A little late now, fuckers.

If anyone is interested, here is the story - LINK to story -


----------



## poison (Sep 10, 2015)

Media whores. I hate that shit. 

Man, I would much rather be killed by accidental friendly fire, be it aerial or point blank in a rescue attempt, and I would prefer the same for any loved one of mine.

I hope that asshole gets captured by some kurds and enjoys a few weeks of special treatment.


----------



## poison (Sep 10, 2015)

Apparently Russia is transferring troops to Syria, and coordinating with Iran. If you attach enough tin foil, you'll pick up signals from debka saying they've moved a nuke sub off the coast. 

How do you guys feel about increased involvement in Syria, with a potential positive (for them) outcome? Sure, anything that embroils Russia and Iran in protracted bloody fights is great, and keeps them distracted, but is that how this will play out? Somehow I doubt it.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 10, 2015)

Russians have had military interest in Syria for a long time with Tartus, so this isn't really all that interesting for me.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 10, 2015)

Yeah, and that interest goes back to before the Yom Kippur War in 73.  Russian troops to Syria is just one more ingredient to the clusterfuck. Unless there's a large-scale coordinated ground offensive to root these ISIS bastards out and kill them all, in my view it's all a big dog & pony show. And I don't suspect Putin is any more willing than Obama to commit large numbers of troops in a potentially bloody and lengthy ground war.


----------



## Brill (Sep 10, 2015)

poison said:


> How do you guys feel about increased involvement in Syria, with a potential positive (for them) outcome? Sure, anything that embroils Russia and Iran in protracted bloody fights is great, and keeps them distracted, but is that how this will play out? Somehow I doubt it.



So much for regime change in Syria.  I expect that Syrian airspace will suddenly become a less favorable operating area.


----------



## AWP (Sep 10, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> And I don't suspect Putin is any more willing than Obama to commit large numbers of troops in a potentially bloody and lengthy ground war.



I think he'll commit troops to combat just to see what the world does. He's going to keep pushing and see how far he can take his foreign policy.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 10, 2015)

Syria is much more of a strategic importance for Russia than us


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 10, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I think he'll commit troops to combat just to see what the world does. He's going to keep pushing and see how far he can take his foreign policy.



I hope he does, in large numbers with a slash and burn mentality.  That would give ISIL a challenge they are not prepared for.



Florida173 said:


> Syria is much more of a strategic importance for Russia than us



Yep, especially with our feeble attempts at regime change.


----------



## poison (Sep 11, 2015)

Russia's Syrian Air Base Has U.S. Scrambling for a Plan - Bloomberg View

Great fucking job. Yet another lose:lose proposition from our president.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 11, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I think he'll commit troops to combat just to see what the world does. He's going to keep pushing and see how far he can take his foreign policy.


 
You're probably right, not much comparison--on second thought--in the balls department between Putin and POTUS. And like @DA SWO, I hope he does, too. _Somebody_ has to put an end to the madness.


----------



## Brill (Sep 11, 2015)

Is this what winning looks like?

Animation: How ISIS Territory Has Changed Since the U.S. Bombing Campaign


----------



## Brill (Sep 19, 2015)

VICE again with anti-MSM viewpoints.

What if the Islamic State Won? | VICE News



> ...what would a more plausible kind of "agree to disagree" or at least "agree to be mortal enemies" victory look like for IS? Perhaps something much more pragmatic, like being able to effectively govern the territories they already control and successfully protect the borders of their so-called caliphate.
> 
> From a certain perspective IS is already doing just that. They already carry out the essential day-to-day asks of any state: paying municipal salaries, issuing travel documents, and running schools and hospitals. However, once this kind of administration becomes the status quo, defeating IS becomes less about targeting leaders or shattering terror networks than about destroying an entire system of political and military governance: no small task.
> 
> "They [IS] are building redundancies into the system," Will McCants, author of _ISIS Apocalypse _and director of the US Project on US Relations with the Islamic World at the Brookings Institution, told VICE News. "They are giving field commanders and governors much more freedom and leeway, so even if you lose the caliph [Abu Bakr al Baghdadi] you don't necessarily lose the caliphate."


----------



## CQB (Sep 19, 2015)

At least the Soviets have a plan. Some more necessary evils are going to be considered as well. 


poison said:


> Russia's Syrian Air Base Has U.S. Scrambling for a Plan - Bloomberg View
> 
> Great fucking job. Yet another lose:lose proposition from our president.


----------



## Rapid (Sep 20, 2015)

RUS air force.


----------



## poison (Sep 20, 2015)

CQB said:


> At least the Soviets have a plan. Some more necessary evils are going to be considered as well.



Their plan isn't good for the US, so yeah, kudos on running rings around this administration, but that's not a good thing.

Charles Krauthammer: How Putin outflanks Obama


----------



## CQB (Sep 21, 2015)

I'd have to agree with Krauthammer. The necessary evil is Assad. What or who will replace him if he is deposed? The US should support the Kurds better, as they know what failure would mean for them. The Russia/Iran nexus at least looks like something going forward.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 21, 2015)

Why do we need to support the Kurds better? I only ask because you are naming them like they are actually a people with a single vision.

I'm sure I am not the only one that remembers Barzani and Talabani's groups support from the Iranians during the Iran-Iraq war. The KDP and PUK were not our friends then.

Granted there are some of them now that are doing some great things in looking out for their own best interests against ISIL, but you aren't going to see them do anything more than keep the status quo and take take take materiel support from us.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 22, 2015)

CQB said:


> At least the Soviets have a plan. Some more necessary evils are going to be considered as well.


----------



## CQB (Sep 22, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> Why do we need to support the Kurds better? I only ask because you are naming them like they are actually a people with a single vision.
> 
> I'm sure I am not the only one that remembers Barzani and Talabani's groups support from the Iranians during the Iran-Iraq war. The KDP and PUK were not our friends then.
> 
> Granted there are some of them now that are doing some great things in looking out for their own best interests against ISIL, but you aren't going to see them do anything more than keep the status quo and take take take materiel support from us.


The govt over here gives them materiel as well & there's a net benefit in doing so. They're almost a proto state the same as Da'esh, with their own agenda. Circumstances change, risk equations change along with those changes & the Kurds should be supported.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 22, 2015)

CQB said:


> The govt over here gives them materiel as well & there's a net benefit in doing so. They're almost a proto state the same as Da'esh, with their own agenda. Circumstances change, risk equations change along with those changes & the Kurds should be supported.


That's a good point to make. An Iranian backed government is still supporting the Kurds.


----------



## CQB (Sep 22, 2015)

As discussed, a necessary evil. Down range there'll be a couple more I'm sure. Bye bye Riyadh, hello Tehran.


----------



## AWP (Sep 22, 2015)

We should help the Kurds because we've played this big brother (post Desert Storm) or partner in war (Iraq 2003 now ISIS) roles and then let them down. We take a dump on nearly every third world ally we've ever met, recruited, thought about, used, or seen. Starting with the Hmong and working through to the present the list of abandoned allies is long, distinguished, and heartbreaking. We should help the Kurds if for no other reason than to stop looking like shitheads and start looking like the leader we claim to be.


----------



## CQB (Sep 23, 2015)

I couldn't agree more, and it's good for it to be recognised, esp. by one of the home team. It must be a national trait as I've worked with a U.S. global corporate and it's the same type of thing. But every nationality broadly speaking had its pecadelloes, Chinese copy things well etc., it gets down to an acceptance of "plus a change plus a meme chose." But I digress...


----------



## Brill (Sep 23, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> We should help the Kurds if for no other reason than to stop looking like shitheads and start looking like the leader we claim to be.



Gotta wait for Jan 2017 for that one.


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 23, 2015)

lindy said:


> Gotta wait for Jan 2017 for that one.


Republicans throw allies under the bus just as quick as the dems.


----------



## Brill (Sep 25, 2015)

I believe Jack Sparrow said it best, "That's interesting."

Mosul's Vigilante Brigades Risk It All To Take On IS


----------



## pardus (Sep 26, 2015)

lindy said:


> I believe Jack Sparrow said it best, "That's interesting."
> 
> Mosul's Vigilante Brigades Risk It All To Take On IS



Good luck to them!


----------



## AWP (Sep 26, 2015)

Fortunately the Russians are in town and ready to help.

Here’s how the Russian Air Force moved 28 aircraft to Syria (almost) undetected



> The photographs taken from space gave us the possibility to identify the combat planes as 4x Su-30SMs, 12x Su-25s (based on their color scheme, these are Su-25SMs belonging to the 368th Assault Aviation Regiment from Budyonnovsk) and 12 Su-24M2s along with about a dozen helicopters, including 10 Mi-24PN, Mi-35M and a couple of Mi-8AMTSh choppers, from the 387th Army Aviation Air Base Budyonnovsk.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 26, 2015)

Now that LH and the Russians are fighting together in Syria, it should make it interesting.


----------



## pardus (Sep 26, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> Now that LH and the Russians are fighting together in Syria, it should make it interesting.



LH?


----------



## Grunt (Sep 26, 2015)

I think it's the Lebanese Hezbollah....


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 26, 2015)

My apologies, yes.. Lebanese Hezbollah


----------



## pardus (Sep 27, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> My apologies, yes.. Lebanese Hezbollah



Thank you.


----------



## Crusader74 (Sep 27, 2015)

CQB said:


> As discussed, a necessary evil. Down range there'll be a couple more I'm sure. Bye bye Riyadh, hello Tehran.



I'm also in agreement. isil won't stop at Syria.. They have their sights set on the rest of the levant too.  The west should have initially assisted Assad under the provision  he step down as soon as the threat has been minimised.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 27, 2015)

Crusader74 said:


> I'm also in agreement. isil won't stop at Syria.. They have their sights set on the rest of the levant too.  The west should have initially assisted Assad under the provision  he step down as soon as the threat has been minimised.



Sure.. The L in ISIL is Levant, but don't forget about their current efforts in northern Africa and all the way to Indonesia.


----------



## Brill (Sep 27, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> My apologies, yes.. Lebanese Hezbollah



EVERYTIME I say that during briefs I no shit say "Lezbanese Hezbollah"...so I just call 'em the Hizzies now.


----------



## Crusader74 (Sep 28, 2015)

lindy said:


> EVERYTIME I say that during briefs I no shit say "Lezbanese Hezbollah"...so I just call 'em the Hizzies now.



There is a Hezbollah in Syria too, affiliated to Lebanese Hezbollah but different groups.


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 28, 2015)

lindy said:


> EVERYTIME I say that during briefs I no shit say "Lezbanese Hezbollah"...so I just call 'em the Hizzies now.


If they are angry would it be briefed as a Hizzy fit?


----------



## Crusader74 (Sep 28, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> If they are angry would it be briefed as a Hizzy fit?




When I was deployed in the Lebanon, we referred to them as "the haries".. for obvious reasons..lol (epic beards wouldn't seem appropriate)
. lol


----------



## Brill (Sep 30, 2015)

Good article with some valid points:

*The Islamic State’s claim to rule as a “caliphate” will remain viable as long as it retains control over a significant amount of territory.*
*
Killing senior leaders and striking other high-value targets is not enough to defeat the Islamic State or al Qaeda.

The Iraqi and Syrian governments, backed by Iran and Russia, are not capable of waging a true counterinsurgency campaign. In fact, their actions have, in many ways, contributed to the rise of the Islamic State, Al Nusrah Front and other Sunni jihadist groups. Iranian-sponsored extremism is fuel for the war.

US counterterrorism efforts in Syria: A winning strategy? | The Long War Journal*


----------



## poison (Sep 30, 2015)

So putin has gone from pariah to shaking hands with Obama and clinking champagne glasses, in 2 months. How long before sanctions against Russia are dropped? ;)


----------



## AWP (Sep 30, 2015)

The Russian presence in Syria is already causing problems. I just hope tensions don't ratchet up.


----------



## Brill (Sep 30, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> The Russian presence in Syria is already causing problems.



For whom?  The Russians were actually invited by and working WITH the Syrian regime whereas, technically, we are conducting combat operations in a sovereign nation without its consent.

Multiple news outlets (probably citing same source) claim estimates of Islamic fundamentalists in theater are over 2,000 FSU residents compared to 250 US residents.

The US didn't do shit when Assad gassed his own people (remember that "red line"?), Russians INVADED and occupied the Crimea, same are supporting an insurrection in Eastern Ukraine, Chinese openly cyber raped everyone with a US security clearance,..and we will not do anything here. 

Obama's strength is convincing his party to pass legislation that nobody bothers to read (other than press releases that they are good for America) but he is weak in foreign policy.  Prime example of his ability to correct international "problems": Libya.  That soup sandwich is Obama's war plain and simple.


----------



## AWP (Sep 30, 2015)

lindy said:


> For whom?



The Coalition. The Russians have a curious habit of conducting flights when we open a ROZ, then vectoring their planes towards certain assets in a nice roundtrip flight.  They also airbridge across Iraq which puts them flying through/ out of Iran. It is an intel coup for these guys and obviously causes us to allocate assets and attention towards their flights. Maybe this stuff will shake out, but no one planned on the Russians coming to the party. Putin put us on our heels again, doing something we weren't prepared for.


----------



## Brill (Sep 30, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> The Russians have a curious habit of conducting flights when we open a ROZ, then vectoring their planes towards certain assets in a nice roundtrip flight.



I sure hope we do the same but then I came back to reality.


----------



## Brill (Oct 1, 2015)

:whatever:

An Historic Step at the United Nations on LGBT Rights

On Monday, the United Nations Security Council held it’s first-ever meeting on LGBT rights and the persecution of LGBT individuals around the world, co-hosted by the United States and Chile. As Ambassador Samantha Power said, “Today we are making UN history.”

Here's your Ambassador's comments:

Making History: The First UN Security Council Meeting on LGBT Rights

Was there any outcry regarding the Albu Nimr tribesmen (who???) were openly murdered by ISIL forces in Al Anbar?  

Read more: IS kills 500 members of Albu Nimr tribe - Al-Monitor: the Pulse of the Middle East

What about Yazidis (saw some shit about a bunch of people stuck on a mountain without water) in Ninawa?

My point is my disgust that there is a blatant agenda with apparent disregard to Freeing the Oppressed, which is EXACTLY what this country once stood for.  Check out 2:44.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 1, 2015)

lindy said:


> ...Check out 2:44...


 
...and 3:37.

Guys like Putin and Netanyahu must laugh their asses off at the daily Clown Show in the West.


----------



## AWP (Oct 1, 2015)

Russia's conducting strikes now. No shock. As to an earlier point made in this thread:

Pentagon: Russia Airstrikes Are 'Pouring Gasoline on a Fire'



> U.S. officials had said in recent days that the Russians were flying reconnaissance missions over Syria without dropping bombs to familiarize themselves within the area. That was taken as an indication that they were about to begin airstrikes, they added.


----------



## Florida173 (Oct 1, 2015)

Seems like it's being handled.. 

US has 'not altered' Syria ops despite new Russia strikes


> The US-led coalition has not scaled back its attacks on Islamic State jihadists in Syria since the launch of Russian air strikes, a US military official said Thursday.





> "We have not altered operations in Syria to accommodate new players on the battlefield," Warren stressed. "We are continuing our operations in Syria, bottom line."
> The Pentagon launched talks with the Russian military Thursday to discuss ways to avoid mishaps between planes from the US-led coalition and Moscow.





> He noted that coalition pilots have clear instructions on how to operate when occupying the same air space as Russian pilots.
> "Our aviators will absolutely follow these techniques, procedures. We expect the Russians or any other pilot in that air space to follow suit," Warren said.


 
I'm getting confused with how we are supposed to feel about the Russian involvement.


> *Kerry: US prepared to work with Russia and Iran*
> The United States is “prepared to work with any nation, including Russia and Iran” in resolving the Syrian crisis, Kerry says, but he re-asserts that Bashar al-Assad must step down.
> “The vast majority of states around this table know that the Isil forces, Isil itself, cannot be defeated so long as Bashar al-Assad remains [in power] in Syria.”


 
If you think about it. Syria and Iraq have both openly supported Iran and Russia's involvement. We are being completely out-maneuvered here.


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 1, 2015)

Let them get involved in a costly ground campaign.
Takes some pressure off Jordan (I hope).


----------



## AWP (Oct 1, 2015)

Why would Iran (Shia) help Syria (Sunni)? What did I miss or have forgotten?


----------



## Florida173 (Oct 1, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Why would Iran (Shia) help Syria (Sunni)? What did I miss or have forgotten?


 
Goes into more of the "Axis of Resistance" and the fact that the ruling Alawites are more considered to be Shia than Sunni.. But is way more complicated than that. It's pragmatic, not religious


----------



## CQB (Oct 1, 2015)

There'll be a lot more pragmatism to come.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 1, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Why would Iran (Shia) help Syria (Sunni)? What did I miss or have forgotten?



Bashar al Assad (and family/government) is Shia, which is part of the reason he is  opposed by the 74+% Sunni population in Syria. Iran is backing the al Asad government, not the population...same-same for Russia.


----------



## Brill (Oct 2, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Why would Iran (Shia) help Syria (Sunni)? What did I miss or have forgotten?



Just like @Florida173 said, it's a ruling class alawite, branch of Shia, thing.


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 2, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Why would Iran (Shia) help Syria (Sunni)? What did I miss or have forgotten?



.....also the same with Iraq, Shia led government with Iranian support and Hezbollah militias on the ground fighting IS.  If Syria and Iraq stabilize and succeed in beating back IS and the other rebel groups, it would be a nice foot print for Iran to have in the region.


----------



## Florida173 (Oct 2, 2015)

Don't forget about the role of the Muslim Brotherhood throughout the region, especially Syria, and the '82 massacre of Hama. The division between the Alawites and Sunnis couldn't have been farther apart because of MB's activities and Hafez's retaliation.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 3, 2015)

Kraut783 said:


> .....also the same with Iraq, Shia led government with Iranian support and Hezbollah militias on the ground fighting IS.  If Syria and Iraq stabilize and succeed in beating back IS and the other rebel groups, it would be a nice foot print for Iran to have in the region.


 
By the time the smoke clears--if and when--won't the Iranians have integrated themselves so firmly into Iraq's political and military structure as to be immovable?


----------



## Florida173 (Oct 3, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> By the time the smoke clears--if and when--won't the Iranians have integrated themselves so firmly into Iraq's political and military structure as to be immovable?



Already done.. They've essentially finally won the Iran-Iraq war... with our help..


----------



## Crusader74 (Oct 3, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> Goes into more of the "Axis of Resistance" and the fact that the ruling Alawites are more considered to be Shia than Sunni.. But is way more complicated than that. It's pragmatic, not religious



I am in agreement.  From my research the reasons are based on keeping supply lines open into Lebanon for Hezbollah. You can base that on Syria's abhorrence for the state of Israel


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 3, 2015)

Crusader74 said:


> I am in agreement.  From my research the reasons are based on keeping supply lines open into Lebanon for Hezbollah. You can base that on Syria's abhorrence for the state of Israel


What does Russia get in the long term?
Warm water port and what else?


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 3, 2015)

I love the gif, it is sadly truer than I'd like to believe.

Anyone able to translate the Russian?


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Oct 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I love the gif, it is sadly truer than I'd like to belief.
> 
> Anyone able to translate the Russian?



Not far from reality.


----------



## Crusader74 (Oct 6, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> What does Russia get in the long term?
> Warm water port and what else?



A foot hold in the ME.


----------



## x SF med (Oct 6, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> What does Russia get in the long term?
> Warm water port and what else?



A bigger stake in the Great Game.


----------



## AWP (Oct 6, 2015)

Vladimir Putin, Habitual Line Stepper.

NATO secretary general questions Russia's aims in Syria - CNNPolitics.com



> NATO's secretary general confirming Tuesday a second incursion by Russian planes into Turkish airspace
> 
> In addition, the Turkish air force said in a statement that an MiG-29 fighter jet of an unidentified nationality had interfered Monday with eight Turkish F-16s on the Turkey-Syria border. The Turkish air force reported the jet put their planes under a radar lock for four minutes and 30 seconds.



The MiG probably belongs to Syria. It is highly unlikely that Russian would send -29's when they have much more capable Su-30's in Syria. And it looks like a SAM site was involved. Locking on to a plane is a big deal.
Turkish F-16s harassed by Russian MiG jet and surface-to-air missiles based out of Syria

Buried in the CNN article:



> On Monday, President Barack Obama authorized the resupply of Syrian Kurds and the Arab-Syrian opposition as part of a strategy to put pressure on ISIS from the north and strengthen the border, according to two senior administration officials.



Iraqi Kurds = Bad, allow Turkey to kill After those same Kurds were Good and we could use them to our advantage.
Syrian Kurds = Good, US resupply.

What a mess. I'd say we should consider changing our strategy, but that implies we had one to begin with.


----------



## Crusader74 (Oct 6, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Vladimir Putin, Habitual Line Stepper.
> 
> NATO secretary general questions Russia's aims in Syria - CNNPolitics.com
> 
> ...




I read a news article today citing six SU- 30 did the same to four Israeli F-15 over Syria.  Not sure how reliable the source is.
Russian Fighter Jets Intercept Israeli Bombers Over Syria – Your...


----------



## Rapid (Oct 6, 2015)

"Although the group fought against the U.S. and other Western forces during OIF, the Hezbollah Brigades are now allied with Central Command through Multi-National Force – Iraq (MNF-I). Proving themselves to be somewhat more combat effective than actual Iraqi Military units, CENTCOM has allowed its arms and hardware to be dispersed into the ranks of its former enemy."

Top fucking lol.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 6, 2015)

Fits right with CENTCOM's Mission Statement to counter Iran's proxy militias :whatever::wall:


----------



## TH15 (Oct 6, 2015)

Russia's UAE embassy trolling the "arm the rebels" crowd with this cartoon a few days ago:




Russian Embassy, UAE on Twitter


----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 6, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Vladimir Putin, Habitual Line Stepper.
> 
> NATO secretary general questions Russia's aims in Syria - CNNPolitics.com
> 
> ...



+1 for starting off IR insight with a Dave Chappell reference.

Funny AND witty.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 8, 2015)

Excuse me while I share my BWAHAHA of the day -

I'd like to think there is a certain Prime Minister in that area giggling like a school girl right now!

Russian cruise missiles intended for targets in Syria hit Iran instead


----------



## Trev (Oct 9, 2015)

http://ottawacitizen.com/news/natio...-in-iraq-kurdish-troops-may-have-been-exposed

Canadian Special Forces have confirmed Kurds have been exposed to mustard gas.


----------



## AWP (Oct 9, 2015)

Trev said:


> Testing for mustard gas exposure not needed for Canadian special forces in Iraq – Kurdish troops may have been exposed
> 
> Canadian Special Forces have confirmed Kurds have been exposed to mustard gas.






> However, according to Army Col. Steven Warren, the spokesman for the U.S.-led coalition in Iraq, “the field test was not conclusive.” He added that “testing will be done off-site in a gold-standard laboratory.”
> 
> “We continue to monitor reports of chemical weapon use closely and *stress that any use of chemicals or biological material as a weapon would be further evidence of ISIL’s barbarity,” Warren added,* using an acronym for the Islamic State group.



Bravo! More evidence to confirm what we know. What will we do with this evidence? Absolutely nothing! Great job with the company line, Col. Warren. Great soundbite, good game, awards and decs for everyone.


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 9, 2015)

Maybe those NBC Dets will stop getting 2Lt OIC's.....


----------



## Brill (Oct 10, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I love the gif, it is sadly truer than I'd like to believe.
> 
> Anyone able to translate the Russian?



Be Ready!

Strong uncle Volodya (a diminutive of Vladimir)!

The original Soviet poster has an athlete telling a young Pioneer "If you want to be like this, train!"


----------



## Etype (Oct 11, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Vladimir Putin, Habitual Line Stepper.
> 
> NATO secretary general questions Russia's aims in Syria - CNNPolitics.com
> 
> ...


Bonus points for using a Charlie Murphy quote.


----------



## AWP (Oct 21, 2015)

Good video footage of a Reaper over Syria....filmed from a Russian Su-30.


----------



## Trev (Oct 21, 2015)

Canada's new PM is ending the RCAF's mission in Iraq and Syria. Canada to end airstrikes in Syria and Iraq, new prime minister Trudeau says Apparently the SOF teams will stay, but still. Why would this shit head try to reduce our efforts to fight ISIS? Fucking dick.


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 21, 2015)

Trev said:


> Canada's new PM is ending the RCAF's mission in Iraq and Syria. Canada to end airstrikes in Syria and Iraq, new prime minister Trudeau says Apparently the SOF teams will stay, but still. Why would this shit head try to reduce our efforts to fight ISIS? Fucking dick.


Because he is a Trudeau.


----------



## Trev (Oct 21, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Because he is a Trudeau.


 That's true. That's very true.


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 21, 2015)

Trev said:


> Canada's new PM is ending the RCAF's mission in Iraq and Syria. Canada to end airstrikes in Syria and Iraq, new prime minister Trudeau says Apparently the SOF teams will stay, but still. Why would this shit head try to reduce our efforts to fight ISIS? Fucking dick.


Thought about this a little more.
Because he is a Trudeau is accurate, but I don't think the US effort is anything to brag about.
Why have planes boring holes in the sky if you are not serious about killing terrorists.
You guys are fucked royally after he imports all those "refugees" and then acts amazed at the mayhem they create.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 22, 2015)

Trev said:


> Canada's new PM is ending the RCAF's mission in Iraq and Syria. Canada to end airstrikes in Syria and Iraq, new prime minister Trudeau says Apparently the SOF teams will stay, but still. Why would this shit head try to reduce our efforts to fight ISIS? Fucking dick.


 


DA SWO said:


> Because he is a Trudeau.


 

For some strange and unconscionable reason, the international outrage and the overwhelming combined military might of the civilized world that *should* have responded to the barbarity and obscenity that is ISIL has not and will not appear. With all due respect to the brave people who _are _responding and doing what they can, the biggest crime here is the timidity of a number of governments, their reluctance to take firm action and their shameless lack of balls. And you know it must be pretty fucking bad when Angelina Jolie is the only celebrity publicly expressing outrage.

I've been shaking my head wondering just what the fuck has to happen to motivate concerted, effective and massive international action against these fucking sadistic animals? When is Good versus Evil not the best reason to fight? You don't have to make shit up or devise a publicity campaign to stir support for military action; you don't have to go to the UN with satellite photos; the atrocities are there, plain for everyone to see, plastered all over the internet and social media.

Canadians at least can take some measure of pride that it was one of their own, Romeo Dallaire, who did his utmost to stop the Rwandan Genocide in spite of a similar lack of support and indifference on the part of the international community.


----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 22, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> ...
> 
> I've been shaking my head wondering just what the fuck has to happen to motivate concerted, effective and massive international action against these fucking sadistic animals? When is Good versus Evil not the best reason to fight? You don't have to make shit up or devise a publicity campaign to stir support for military action; you don't have to go to the UN with satellite photos; the atrocities are there, plain for everyone to see, plastered all over the internet and social media.



The Western world has been free riding under the American security umbrella for far too long.  We're tired of people demanding "someone" (i.e. the US) do "something" (i.e. go in on the ground), and then complaining about the way we do it.  There are plenty of things in the world that are a MUCH bigger strategic threat to the US than ISIS.  Right now, containment is a better course of action than eradication.  

Getting involved in other peoples' civil wars has damaged our military and contributed enormously to the bankruptcy of our country.  ISIS is the world's problem, but the only people really trying to do anything meaningful about it is the US.

Oh, and Russia.


----------



## Dienekes (Oct 22, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> You guys are fucked royally after he imports all those "refugees" and then acts amazed at the mayhem they create.



If/When that happens, would it then be time to change our security position on the Canadian border? I would say yes, but look at how great we handle border security policy with respect to Mexico.  :wall:


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 22, 2015)

*One US soldier killed in Iraq during rescue of more than 70 ISIS hostages -*

I like these stories a whole lot better when there are no US casualties...

One US soldier killed in Iraq during rescue of more than 70 ISIS hostages

_One U.S. Army Special Operator was killed in a rescue mission that freed as many as 70 ISIS hostages in Iraq, defense officials confirmed Thursday. It marked the first time a U.S. service member was killed in action during the anti-ISIS ground fight in Iraq.

A senior U.S. defense official said the service member was shot in a gunfight. The Pentagon said he died after receiving medical care, and offered "sincere condolences" to his family.

The Arab hostages were freed from an ISIS prison in northern Iraq near Hawijah. "People were chained to walls," one well-placed military source told Fox News.

"A mass atrocity was averted," a senior U.S. defense source added. According to the Pentagon, rescuers "deliberately planned" the operation, and moved in when it was apparent that ISIS hostage takers were planning to kill the hostages.

The senior defense official said the U.S. carried out airstrikes before and after the operation, destroying the prison afterwards.
_


----------



## Grunt (Oct 22, 2015)

Rest In Peace, Warrior and thank you for your service!


----------



## Gunz (Oct 22, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> ...There are plenty of things in the world that are a MUCH bigger strategic threat to the US than ISIS.  Right now, containment is a better course of action than eradication...


 
My logical and practical sides are in total agreement with you, sir...but my guts want me to nape the fuck out of those syphilitic bastards.


----------



## Florida173 (Oct 22, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> There are plenty of things in the world that are a MUCH bigger strategic threat to the US than ISIS. Right now, containment is a better course of action than eradication.


 
No such thing as containment at this point. They've already established more affiliates than AQ core and ISIL is more a non-state actor with state like capabilities.


----------



## AWP (Oct 30, 2015)

Filed under "Second and Third Order Effects":

IRAQ: The exodus of academics has lowered educational standards



> The Iraq Index, compiled by the Brookings Institution in Washington, released on 21 December 2006, estimated that up to 40 percent of Iraq's professionals have fled the country since 2003, with doctors and the pharmacists topping the list.



This isn't a new problem in history as intellectuals are almost always targeted. They like other citizens flee and some never return. It is worth pointing out only because we in the West talk about building democratic governments and blah, blah, blah, but without educated citizens what's left? How do you build on something with a poor educational standard? Look at Afghanistan, most of her leaders are expats. Southeast Asia is only beginning to recover following the bloodshed of the 60's and 70's. Best case, we're looking at over a decade before Iraq becomes something other than a garbage dump of humanity and those conditions allow for the rise of extremist groups like ISIS. Without an intellectual class what leaders are left? The mullahs.

Iraq will be a dumpster fire for years, ISIS or no ISIS.


----------



## TH15 (Oct 30, 2015)

The President has authorized a contingent of ~50 SOF personnel to Syria:



> A U.S. official says that the White House will announce that Obama has authorized somewhere around 50 special operations forces to go into Syria to work with the rebel group known as the Syrian Arab Coalition. These forces will work along the Syrian border and not on the front lines with these rebel groups. They will provide training, assistance and advising just as US troops are doing in Iraq.
> 
> They will not be in combat, they will work with the Syrian Arab Coalition to facilitate airstrikes, but they are not forward air controllers. They will be at the group’s headquarters speeding up coordination of potential airstrikes.


Obama to Send Troops to Syria


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## Brill (Oct 30, 2015)

Isn't Syria a sovereign nation?  I get that Assad doesn't mind us kicking the shit out of ISIL in SY but putting foreign troops INSIDE his country without an invitation...isn't that what Putin did in Ukraine?


----------



## Quant (Oct 30, 2015)

lindy said:


> Isn't Syria a sovereign nation?  I get that Assad doesn't mind us kicking the shit out of ISIL in SY but putting foreign troops INSIDE his country without an invitation...isn't that what Putin did in Ukraine?


Wouldn't the difference here be intent? Russia intended to conquer Ukraine with the placement of troops there. Is the U.S. really planning an overthrow of the Syrian government with these troops in Syria?


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 30, 2015)

Quant said:


> Wouldn't the difference here be intent? Russia intended to conquer Ukraine with the placement of troops there. Is the U.S. really planning an overthrow of the Syrian government with these troops in Syria?


Ahh, no.

It's an act of war.


----------



## Brill (Oct 30, 2015)

Quant said:


> Wouldn't the difference here be intent? Russia intended to conquer Ukraine with the placement of troops there. Is the U.S. really planning an overthrow of the Syrian government with these troops in Syria?



Current policy IS regime change in Syria. Same as Putin's in Ukie-Stan.


----------



## Quant (Oct 30, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Ahh, no.
> 
> It's an act of war.



Is Syria claiming that this is an act of war? (Seriously wondering, I couldn't find anything on a quick search) I mean deploying/fighting in Daesh controlled territory is very different than say deploying with the rebels fighting directly against Assad. The whole situation over there is getting more complicated by the hour.



lindy said:


> Current policy IS regime change in Syria. Same as Putin's in Ukie-Stan.



Yes, but that is irrelevant from this deployment to "advise" local forces battling Daesh right? Unless I'm missing some more information.


----------



## AWP (Oct 30, 2015)

Quant said:


> Is Syria claiming that this is an act of war? (Seriously wondering, I couldn't find anything on a quick search) I mean deploying/fighting in Daesh controlled territory is very different than say deploying with the rebels fighting directly against Assad. The whole situation over there is getting more complicated by the hour.
> 
> Yes, but that is irrelevant from this deployment to "advise" local forces battling Daesh right? Unless I'm missing some more information.



The rebels in Syria are fighting Daesh, Assad, or whoever they have to. It is a civil war. You can't guarantee that forces fighting Daesh today aren't battling the gov't tomorrow. With so many factions you also have "vacuum" issues. Kill ISIS here or there, but who occupies that town or region when they leave? Ultimately on some level we're supporting regime change in Syria, intentionally or accidentally and boots on the ground doesn't help our "neutral" status.


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 30, 2015)

Quant said:


> Is Syria claiming that this is an act of war? (Seriously wondering, I couldn't find anything on a quick search) I mean deploying/fighting in Daesh controlled territory is very different than say deploying with the rebels fighting directly against Assad. The whole situation over there is getting more complicated by the hour.
> 
> 
> 
> Yes, but that is irrelevant from this deployment to "advise" local forces battling Daesh right? Unless I'm missing some more information.


You can not (under most circumstances) put Military Forces into another country without that country's approval.
We have injected ourselves into a civil war, and are not fighting with government troops.
Assad could easily claim we have "invaded".


----------



## Brill (Oct 31, 2015)

A new IS front?



> Alexei Malashenko, an expert on Islam with the Carnegie Endowment's Moscow office, said that officials in the Caucasus had an interest in encouraging the militants to move out of the region.
> 
> "A drop in the Islamists' activity and the reduction in the number of casualties in the North Caucasus in 2014-2015 were the result of militants leaving for the Middle East," Malashenko wrote in a recent article.
> 
> ...



Islamic State on recruitment spree in Russia's North Caucasus _ raising fears of instability


----------



## AWP (Oct 31, 2015)

ISIS is kind of the premiere or "cause du jour" for extremists. Their source of manpower is almost unlimited.


----------



## CDG (Oct 31, 2015)

ISIS claims to have brought down a jet: ISIS claims responsibility for Russian jet crash that killed 224

I don't buy it, but it's all part of their propaganda machine and many extremists will believe it.  Yet another recruitment boost likely.


----------



## Grunt (Oct 31, 2015)

ISIS has become the rallying point for every thug to center around and do what they want with impunity.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 31, 2015)

ISIS trying to claim responsibility for downing the Russian airplane.

Boy, these fuckers really are nuts....whether they did it or not, unlike our president, Russia's has a bit of a reputation, and is apt to carry a grudge.  What's their end game?

ISIS claims responsibility for Russian jet crash that killed 224


----------



## Brill (Oct 31, 2015)

Maybe that was the "KGB's" plan: acft down let's send out some tweets that IS did it so we can "intervene".


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 31, 2015)

Well didn't Russia just spend a shit load of money updating its ground forces, something like 700billion. That's alot of money for Russia to drop on ground forces. I would imagine they would like to test out their investment. Not sure if they will use it on ISIS, but I would imagine that they will be in a ground war (one that they admit to being in) in the near future (probably in the next 5 yrs, probably in the Baltic region).


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 31, 2015)

Looking more like ISIS pulled this off?

ISIS claims responsibility for Russian jet crash that killed 224


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 31, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Looking more like ISIS pulled this off?
> 
> ISIS claims responsibility for Russian jet crash that killed 224


We will have to wait a few days for the technical experts to review it.

Putin will go all in if they did shoot the plane down (Just ask Hamas (or was it hezbollah?))


----------



## racing_kitty (Nov 1, 2015)

I agree that Putin will go all in, but would he go after them first, or will he wipe out the smaller factions before turning all eyes on ISIS?


----------



## Florida173 (Nov 1, 2015)

CDG said:


> ISIS claims to have brought down a jet: ISIS claims responsibility for Russian jet crash that killed 224
> 
> I don't buy it, but it's all part of their propaganda machine and many extremists will believe it.  Yet another recruitment boost likely.



The airline and media report it was a mechanical malfunction, but have stated that the airline will no longer fly over the sinai..


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 1, 2015)

Russia wouldn't spin it, regardless what actually happened, they would just go full retard, b/c they are dumb, and stuff.


----------



## Brill (Nov 1, 2015)

JAB said:


> Russia wouldn't spin it, regardless what actually happened, they would just go full retard, b/c they are dumb, and stuff.



MH-17?


----------



## AWP (Nov 1, 2015)

20 something minutes after takeoff (CNN), cruising at 36,000 feet (Fox), losing 6,000 per minute (Fox), and it was an Airbus (all sources)?

ISIS brought down this a/c? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! They are taking a page from the Taliban PR Press book. Their claims are laughable.


----------



## Crusader74 (Nov 1, 2015)

Quant said:


> Wouldn't the difference here be intent? Russia intended to conquer Ukraine with the placement of troops there. Is the U.S. really planning an overthrow of the Syrian government with these troops in Syria?




well, according to Saul, yes yee want to overthrow Assad...


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 1, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> 20 something minutes after takeoff (CNN), cruising at 36,000 feet (Fox), losing 6,000 per minute (Fox), and it was an Airbus (all sources)?
> 
> ISIS brought down this a/c? BWAHAHAHAHA!!!! They are taking a page from the Taliban PR Press book. Their claims are laughable.


6000 FPM is one hell of a descent.  Something catastrophic happened (bomb?).


----------



## AWP (Nov 1, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> 6000 FPM is one hell of a descent.  Something catastrophic happened (bomb?).



I've seen reports where the authorities think it broke up in flight. The 6,000 FPM is coming from Flightradar24 or something like that. 6k a minute is steep but it is an Airbus and they go down like a crack whore.


----------



## AWP (Nov 1, 2015)

Admin Note: If we don't see an ISIS link soon this will become a thread in Gen. Disc.


----------



## TT (Nov 1, 2015)

After doing some research on all the likley candidates from both the republican party and the democratic party. It seems like most of them want boots on the ground to fight isis. In the near future when a president is elected how would another war in Iraq play out? Do you think it would play out like the last time the US invaded or be different? Do you think the US and Russia both fighting isis togather could potentially benift the countries realtionship? 
(FYI this will probubly be my only thread I ever make on here being that I'm still only a civilian)


----------



## Brill (Nov 1, 2015)

TT said:


> After doing some research on all the likley candidates from both the republican party and the democratic party. It seems like most of them want boots on the ground to fight isis. In the near future when a president is elected how would another war in Iraq play out? Do you think it would play out like the last time the US invaded or be different? Do you think the US and Russia both fighting isis togather could potentially benift the countries realtionship?
> (FYI this will probubly be my only thread I ever make on here being that I'm still only a civilian)



Wholly hail.


----------



## TT (Nov 1, 2015)

Oh god.. Why do I have a bad feeling that hell is about to rain down upon me for that post :wall:


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 1, 2015)

TT said:


> After doing some research on all the likely candidates from both the Republican Party and the Democratic Party, it seems like most of them want boots on the ground to fight ISIS. In the near future when a president is elected how would another war in Iraq play out? Do you think it would play out like the last time the US invaded or be different? Do you think the US and Russia both fighting ISIS together could potentially benefit the countries' relationship?
> 
> (FYI this will probably be my only thread I ever make on here being that I'm still only a civilian)



There are lots of civilians on this site.

I think this is an interesting question but it probably warrants asking in another thread.

I will say though that while lots of candidates "say" they want boots on the ground, the reality will look a lot different when one of them is President/


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## Grunt (Nov 1, 2015)

I agree with @Marauder06. Everyone "wants" to be the lion until it's time to "be" the lion and get bloody. 

And, not only have to get bloody, but "own" it.


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## TT (Nov 1, 2015)

I actually made made my own thread about that but got quoted. Problem is the more civilians in this site the more less creditable the site becomes which is why I keep my distance and don't usually post.


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## TLDR20 (Nov 1, 2015)

Agoge said:


> I agree with @Marauder06. Everyone "wants" to be the lion until it's time to "be" the lion and get bloody.
> 
> And, not only have to get bloody, but "own" it.


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 1, 2015)

I'm going with bomb.
Saw the story on the news today and massive structural failure screams bomb to me.
Taking off from Egypt (airport security isn't their strongpoint).
I doubt it was ISIL though, I'll go with the Muslim Brotherhood, though ISIL has been very active in the Sinai.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 1, 2015)

I served six months in Sinai with the MFO.  During that time, one of my platoon's two outposts overlooked the Sharm El Sheik airport.  Sharm and Nama Bay were HUGE attractions for Russian and European tourists.  If people even think this was really an attack, it will devastate tourism in the region for months.

Plus it will probably provoke a bloody over-reaction from both Egypt and Russia.


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 1, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> I served six months in Sinai with the MFO.  During that time, one of my platoon's two outposts overlooked the Sharm El Sheik airport.  Sharm and Nama Bay were HUGE attractions for Russian and European tourists.  If people even think this was really an attack, it will devastate tourism in the region for months.
> 
> Plus it will probably provoke a bloody over-reaction from both Egypt and Russia.


Regardless of what happened, I see Putin dropping his best into Syria and telling them to behead ISIL, and the Russians ARE willing to kill family members if that's what it takes to get to the head of the snake.  There should be a lot of rich Saudis, Pakistanis, and Qataris who should be nervous.

Oh, and Ben Carson (along with a everyone else)  is an idiot for calling on Obama to make Syria a no-fly zone.  Russians own the airspace and wouldn't take kindly to our declaring it a no-fly zone.


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## medicchick (Nov 2, 2015)

I've read several reports that said they had been having engine start problems all week.  I'm still waiting to see what the official report says but with how damaged everything looks from the impact who knows when that will be.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 2, 2015)

While being respectful of the tragedy, I laughed out loud as I read this most recent article.

Airline exec says external impact caused Egypt plane crash - StarTribune.com

_ST. PETERSBURG, Russia — Only an external impact could have caused a Russian plane to dive into the Egyptian desert, killing all 224 people on board, the airline said Monday, adding to a series of incomplete and confusing statements from investigators that left unclear why the plane broke up in mid-flight.

"We rule out a technical fault of the plane or a pilot error," said Alexander Smirnov, deputy general director of Metrojet. "The only possible explanation could be an external impact on the airplane."
_
Translation:  Regardless of the fact that structural engineers and accident investigators have not had a chance to even begin to look at the wreckage, there is NO way Metrojet will ever admit that the plane could have had maintenance issues or security procedure could have permitted a bomb to be put on board -

ETA - Personally the 'bomb on board' thing is what concerns me most when I fly.  Anytime I see folks messing around with their carry on and handle their key-fob, the blood pressure jumps a bit.


----------



## AWP (Nov 2, 2015)

Think of the chutzpah involved for the Russians to talk of a missile downing an aircraft....


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## DA SWO (Nov 2, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> While being respectful of the tragedy, I laughed out loud as I read this most recent article.
> 
> Airline exec says external impact caused Egypt plane crash - StarTribune.com
> 
> ...


Metrojet would have minimal say on who loads the bags.  Going to be a bunch of locals who get vetted by Egyptian Security (one of the reasons I think bomb).
Egyptians need to be looking for the guys who have stopped coming to work.


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## AWP (Nov 2, 2015)

Out of curiosity I compared this flight with Air France Flight 447. This one is an Airbus 321 and 447 was an A330. Wikipedia has a solid* write-up of 447's demise and if you're bored you can look it up.
Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Using the CNN article and its referenced Flightradar24 you'll see some similarities:
Russian plane crash in Egypt: 'External influence' blamed - CNN.com
Crash of Metrojet Flight 7K9268 | Flightradar24 Blog

Varying airspeeds, rapid final descent, rapid changes in airspeed and altitude, no mayday call, and Airbus has a history of pitot tube failures on A330's. The Russians can squawk all they want, but I'll remain skeptical of "external" events until more data is provided.

Final report on 447:
http://www.bea.aero/docspa/2009/f-cp090601.en/pdf/f-cp090601.en.pdf

* - Yeah, this is Wikipedia but I'm citing info found in the official BEA report. Wikipedia makes it a LOT easier to digest.


----------



## TLDR20 (Nov 2, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Out of curiosity I compared this flight with Air France Flight 447. This one is an Airbus 321 and 447 was an A330. Wikipedia has a solid* write-up of 447's demise and if you're bored you can look it up.
> Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Using the CNN article and its referenced Flightradar24 you'll see some similarities:
> ...



Popular Mechanics did a great write-up about it.


----------



## Trev (Nov 3, 2015)

Canadian army veteran arrested in Iraq after stint with Kurds fighting ISIL in Syria According to this a lot of western volunteers with the Kurds are being arrested leaving Syria.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 3, 2015)

Although I admire the actions of people who went and volunteered with the Kurds, and even thought i would like to do so myself a few times. There is absolutely no way in hell I would have carried or fired a weapon over there, without some written statement from the US Gov, Iraqi Gov of guaranteed exemption of prosecution. All those great people, can still be charged for crimes committed in Iraq and or Syria. People making videos, giving interviews and social media the hell out of their exploits. They are truly out of their minds and living in a false realty. Both of those country's wouldn't think twice about bringing charges against any westerners. 

Not even getting into the issues of fighting for a foreign military during a time of war...bat shit crazy.


----------



## Brill (Nov 4, 2015)

Trev said:


> Canadian army veteran arrested in Iraq after stint with Kurds fighting ISIL in Syria According to this a lot of western volunteers with the Kurds are being arrested leaving Syria.



That's interesting. I wonder if Kurds are under pressure to remove the gringos?


----------



## AWP (Nov 4, 2015)

Those people are idiots. What's the different between them or a Chechen going to fight in Iraq? It is okay because we have the moral high ground or okay because they are on our side? Think of it like this, you're on patrol in Iraq or Afghanistan circa 2009 when you bump into a group of armed Westerners. "Oh, we're just here fighting xxxxx." You have a group of armed vigilantes in your battlespace and regardless of their nationality....are you really going to look the other way?


----------



## poison (Nov 4, 2015)

A bomb would be easy to arrange in sharm. Sinai is a breeding ground and magnet for plenty of talent, and Egypt gets their assets handed to them fairly frequently there.


----------



## Il Duce (Nov 4, 2015)

I was in Egypt for grad school in 2006 when Sharm was bombed - very popular hotspot on the strip, it was during the Egyptian version of Spring Break for the colleges so a lot of tourists.  The Egyptian government came down on the bombers - and their sympathizers in the Sinai - like a ton of bricks.  I think Egyptian security forces had killed more than 30 people in raids and imprisoned more than 200 within 2 weeks of the bombing.  It's possible the Sisi regime has gotten worse at repression than the Mubarak regime was but I doubt it.  Suppression of internal discontent is something Egyptian security forces are a 'T' at.


----------



## poison (Nov 4, 2015)

They're a t at making a mess, sure, but not necessarily at clearing out the Sinai, not even close. they've been getting their asses kicked there for 2 years now. That place is fucked up, hard to operate in, and full of bad guys. Just because they killed a bunch and arrested more doesn't mean they know wtf they're doing.


----------



## Brill (Nov 4, 2015)

poison said:


> Just because they killed a bunch and arrested more doesn't mean they know wtf they're doing.



The Government of Mexico would agree with that statement.


----------



## Brill (Nov 5, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Those people are idiots. What's the different between them or a Chechen going to fight in Iraq? It is okay because we have the moral high ground or okay because they are on our side? Think of it like this, you're on patrol in Iraq or Afghanistan circa 2009 when you bump into a group of armed Westerners. "Oh, we're just here fighting xxxxx." You have a group of armed vigilantes in your battlespace and regardless of their nationality....are you really going to look the other way?



Um, yes, we DO look the other way depending on alliance. Chechens are fighting for ISIL and ANF, not YPG.


----------



## Florida173 (Nov 5, 2015)

> *Russian plane crash: U.S. intel suggests ISIS bomb brought down jet*
> Russian plane crash: U.S. intel suggests ISIS involved - CNN.com



Not much for details or sourcing.. curious to what kind of "official" would share this information


----------



## AWP (Nov 5, 2015)

lindy said:


> Um, yes, we DO look the other way depending on alliance. Chechens are fighting for ISIL and ANF, not YPG.



I won't dispute that, I can't, but there's no difference between us doing it and "the other guys." We look like jackasses to the world when we allow it but complain about the other guys


----------



## AWP (Nov 5, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> Not much for details or sourcing.. curious to what kind of "official" would share this information



A few days ago CNN said "unnamed US Intelligence sources" claimed that had satellite imagery/ indications the plane exploded in midair. *shrug


----------



## Totentanz (Nov 5, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> Not much for details or sourcing.. curious to what kind of "official" would share this information



The same "officials" CNN uses any time they use their Magic 8 Ba.. I mean "unnamed sources".

There are times when I wonder if their "intelligence community sources" are the janitors...


----------



## poison (Nov 5, 2015)

I'm curious to see russias reaction, if it was a bomb.


----------



## Grunt (Nov 5, 2015)

poison said:


> I'm curious to see russias reaction, if it was a bomb.



Vlad is already working on op orders 1 through 25 for when and if that scenario is ever proven!


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 5, 2015)

Agoge said:


> Vlad is already working on op orders 1 through 25 for when and if that scenario is ever proven!


No, they are written and awaiting execution.
I wouldn't be surprised if he was already moving intel and other assets into place (didn't the PM of Israel recently visit?).
Bombs, bullets, knives, poison; you name it and it will get employed.

To think that asshat McCain is trying to start a war with Russia over Syria.


----------



## TH15 (Nov 5, 2015)

Lindsay Graham and John McCain haven't seen a war they didn't like.


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## Brill (Nov 5, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I won't dispute that, I can't, but there's no difference between us doing it and "the other guys." We look like jackasses to the world when we allow it but complain about the other guys



I'm not following you.  Are you saying that an American volunteering to fight with ISIL is the same as volunteering to fight with YPG?


----------



## AWP (Nov 5, 2015)

lindy said:


> I'm not following you.  Are you saying that an American volunteering to fight with ISIL is the same as volunteering to fight with YPG?



That wasn't where I was going, but since you asked...no.

My point was mainly geared towards US/ Allied citizens fighting for an "allied" cause is the same as some non-allied nation (Chechnya or China or whoever) going to fight for ISIS or even Assad. They don't belong there and we're hypocrites if we complain about a Krygyz or Uzbek or whoever fighting for a non-US/ allied cause. I think if your nation is currently involved in fighting ISIS and you've joined that side then you're a traitor.

I don't think I'm articulating my thoughts very well.


----------



## Brill (Nov 5, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> My point was mainly geared towards US/ Allied citizens fighting for an "allied" cause is the same as some non-allied nation (Chechnya or China or whoever) going to fight for ISIS or even Assad. They don't belong there and we're hypocrites if we complain about a Krygyz or Uzbek or whoever fighting for a non-US/ allied cause. I think if your nation is currently involved in fighting ISIS and you've joined that side then you're a traitor.



Looking at the individual's motivation: I would argue that it COULD be the same.

If a Chechen, Uzbek, Cherkess, Kist, etc travels to fight with ISIL because they believe that Assad is a dick and (insert failed Shia leader in Iraq here) are oppressing their Sunni brothers, then, in my opinion, they too are trying to liberate their brethren from tyranny.

I hope they die for their "country".


----------



## Tbone (Nov 5, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> That wasn't where I was going, but since you asked...no.
> 
> My point was mainly geared towards US/ Allied citizens fighting for an "allied" cause is the same as some non-allied nation (Chechnya or China or whoever) going to fight for ISIS or even Assad. They don't belong there and we're hypocrites if we complain about a Krygyz or Uzbek or whoever fighting for a non-US/ allied cause. I think if your nation is currently involved in fighting ISIS and you've joined that side then you're a traitor.
> 
> I don't think I'm articulating my thoughts very well.



This is the most confusing thing I have read all week?:-/ I feel like you are stating the obvious but complicating it, no?


----------



## AWP (Nov 5, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I don't think I'm articulating my thoughts very well.





Tbone said:


> This is the most confusing thing I have read all week?:-/ I feel like you are stating the obvious but complicating it, no?



Already "answered."


----------



## Tbone (Nov 5, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Already "answered."



I was just confused as to which point you weren't articulating well.


----------



## Brill (Nov 7, 2015)

An interesting article on the history/background of the Sunni discrimination that fueled the resurrection of the Islamic State in Iraq.  It also points to failed isolation policy that turned a blind eye to the violence.

How ISIS Spread in the Middle East—and How to Stop It


----------



## AWP (Nov 7, 2015)

One of the "architects" or modern Iraq, Ahmed Chalabi, passed away this week. Good riddance.


----------



## Brill (Nov 8, 2015)

poison said:


> A bomb would be easy to arrange in sharm. Sinai is a breeding ground and magnet for plenty of talent, and Egypt gets their assets handed to them fairly frequently there.



Bomb detection is ridiculously stupid: run all shoes through X-rays and just ask who packed the bags or whether they were with the passenger the entire time.

No?


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 8, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> One of the "architects" or modern Iraq, Ahmed Chalabi, passed away this week. Good riddance.



I wan't tracking that.  Interesting.


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 8, 2015)

lindy said:


> Bomb detection is ridiculously stupid: run all shoes through X-rays and just ask who packed the bags or whether they were with the passenger the entire time.
> 
> No?


Meh, Jihadi #1 gives assembled package (with explicit directions) to Jihadi #2 who is a baggage handler at the airport.
Jihadi #2 either places bomb on plane or gives to Jihadi #3 who places the bomb in the baggage hold (they appear to have placed it mid-aircraft).

TSA and enhanced screening of passengers is a joke.
TSA talking about extra carry-on restrictions shows how clueless they actually are.


----------



## Brill (Nov 8, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Meh, Jihadi #1 gives assembled package (with explicit directions) to Jihadi #2 who is a baggage handler at the airport.
> Jihadi #2 either places bomb on plane or gives to Jihadi #3 who places the bomb in the baggage hold (they appear to have placed it mid-aircraft).



But TSA has been fondling my junk and taking happy snaps via the body scanners to prevent this!


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## DA SWO (Nov 8, 2015)

Sorry for the FB Link.
Good footage of a Russian jet being shot at.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1484180645222432


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## pardus (Nov 9, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Sorry for the FB Link.
> Good footage of a Russian jet being shot at.
> 
> 
> ...



Looks like a MIG 21, if so, I highly doubt it's Russian.


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## DA SWO (Nov 9, 2015)

pardus said:


> Looks like a MIG 21, if so, I highly doubt it's Russian.


Actually, if you look closely it's two different aircraft #1 looks like a Sukhoi and #2 looks like a MiG 21.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 9, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Actually, if you look closely it's two different aircraft #1 looks like a Sukhoi and #2 looks like a MiG 21.



Concur. The bulk of the footage shown is a MIG 21. Early on, the first aircraft is not a 21.


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## Brill (Nov 9, 2015)

First acft is MiG-23.


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## R.Caerbannog (Nov 14, 2015)

Been watching this thread for a long time, wanted to throw out some thoughts. I wonder if the cost to kill ratio may be rather high for our side. The coalition has killed thousands of jihadists through its air campaign, but there still seems to be no end of shitheads in sight. This is going to sound wrong but instead of just targeting the fighters maybe we should also target their families as well. Going further, targeting support networks and infrastructure that makes life possible for those loyal to the caliphate would be ideal as well. 

If they cannot replace their pool of fighters in the future then their numbers and supporters should drop. It would also incentivize the families of would be jihadists to not let their kids become fuckwits. Also by destroying agricultural networks, water supplies, and power facilities the coalition would remove the legitimacy that the caliphate has bestowed upon itself. If the caliphate can't provide goods and services then I doubt that the people there will live under it. Sure people are going to suffer, but in my opinion most of the "decent" people left or were killed off already. Fuck it, I figure let father drought and father famine do the work for us.


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## Brill (Nov 15, 2015)

Decision paralysis?

Barack Obama’s Military Advisors Throw Him Under the Bus


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 15, 2015)

File under: When libs accidentally tell you how they really think...

' DFLer abruptly quits race after saying 'ISIS isn't necessarily evil'


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## AWP (Nov 15, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> File under: When libs accidentally tell you how they really think...
> 
> ' DFLer abruptly quits race after saying 'ISIS isn't necessarily evil'



They just need some hugs and our understanding.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 15, 2015)

A short video about ISIS that I found interesting.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 16, 2015)

That's a really good break down on ISIS, except for the bit he left out about wanting to turn the whole world into an Islamic caliphate. Which is also an important part of the ISIS equation, that seems to always be ignored. Good vid, worth watching.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 16, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> They just need some hugs and our understanding.


And jobs.  Jobs cure everything.



Right?


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## Red-Dot (Nov 16, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> And jobs.  Jobs cure everything.
> 
> 
> 
> Right?


A good job for ISIS would be replacing ballistic gelatin.


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## AWP (Nov 16, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> And jobs.  Jobs cure everything.
> 
> 
> 
> Right?



The funny thing is I think the jobs/ climate change angle has merit but not in the way people take it. Climate change drives drought and I think we understand jobs. I consider those two issues on the periphery which need to be addressed IOT stem the flow of recruits. We need to kill early and kill often, but that won't be enough. At some point other conditions need to change. We can't discard other causes and solutions, but *we can't treat their sum as greater than simple, old fashioned killing*.


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## DA SWO (Nov 16, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> The funny thing is I think the jobs/ climate change angle has merit but not in the way people take it. *Climate change drives drought and I think we understand jobs*. I consider those two issues on the periphery which need to be addressed IOT stem the flow of recruits. We need to kill early and kill often, but that won't be enough. At some point other conditions need to change. We can't discard other causes and solutions, but *we can't treat their sum as greater than simple, old fashioned killing*.



2nd sentence; not always, changing climates can cause an excess of rain, longer and shorter growing season, etc.  Look at the climate during the great Irish immigration to America (aka potato famine).  I don't recall those immigrants trying to slaughter their way to power.


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## AWP (Nov 16, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> 2nd sentence; not always, changing climates can cause an excess of rain, longer and shorter growing season, etc.  Look at the climate during the great Irish immigration to America (aka potato famine).  I don't recall those immigrants trying to slaughter their way to power.



I understand and people will react differently. I'm not excusing their behavior at all, but we can't be blind to the fact that bad circumstances can produce bad people. We cannot kill our way out of this, so we need to look at additional or supporting carrots to go with a 2000 lb. stick.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 17, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I understand and people will react differently. I'm not excusing their behavior at all, but we can't be blind to the fact that bad circumstances can produce bad people. We cannot kill our way out of this, so we need to look at additional or supporting carrots to go with a 2000 lb. stick.



Why can't we kill our way out of this?


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## Brill (Nov 17, 2015)

JAB said:


> Why can't we kill our way out of this?



And flood our streets with even more Pred Pilots with PTSD? The video game industry would be forever changed.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 17, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> The funny thing is I think the jobs/ climate change angle has merit but not in the way people take it. Climate change drives drought and I think we understand jobs. I consider those two issues on the periphery which need to be addressed IOT stem the flow of recruits. We need to kill early and kill often, but that won't be enough. At some point other conditions need to change. We can't discard other causes and solutions, but *we can't treat their sum as greater than simple, old fashioned killing*.



There are many places in the world where drought exists, yet there is no major terrorist threat emanating from those areas.  There are billions of poor people in the world, yet in most regions where poverty is prevalent, there is little international terrorist activity.  Climate and economics may contribute to the conditions that lead to terrorism, but the one most obvious contributor is Islamic terrorism is the one no one wants to talk about:  the cultural influences that drive people to those groups and to commit those acts, namely, the religion of Islam.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 17, 2015)

lindy said:


> And flood our streets with even more Pred Pilots with PTSD? The video game industry would be forever changed.



Hey there is an idea, have a "buy flight time" drone game. You buy so much flight time, and kill terrorist from the comfort of your living room. Only billed for munitions if you miss. 

Hell you're accomplishing several things; 1) killing terrorist, 2) building an economy based on interactive gaming, 3) paying for fuel and maintaining of aircraft, 4) ensuring accuracy and accountability of weapons used, and most of all 5) giving all the whack jobs something to do that is productive for society as a whole.

"ISIS HUNTER"


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## AWP (Nov 17, 2015)

JAB said:


> Why can't we kill our way out of this?



Iraq and Afghanistan worked out well.

We're fighting an ideology. We need to put a boot on their necks but we're kidding ourselves if we think that's the only solution.



Marauder06 said:


> Climate and economics may contribute to the conditions that lead to terrorism, but the one most obvious contributor is Islamic terrorism is the one no one wants to talk about:  the cultural influences that drive people to those groups and to commit those acts, namely, the religion of Islam.



Which is what I'm saying. The "soft" issues are contributing to the rise of Islamic terrorism. They aren't the sole cause and I'm not so blind as to think that. Social or physical issues are making the Islamic world more open, for lack of a better word, to terrorism.

Adverse conditions will see humanity reduced to basic levels and they will choose good vs. evil. The Siege of Leningrad is a great example. People stuck together or they resorted to cannibalism, there was little middle ground. History is littered with people who reached the end of their ropes and decided to get the kill on. To kill our way out of the Middle East would involve killing damn near every Muslim in the ME and that is impractical. We need to drop bodies but a long term solution will require more. We simply can't (we need to be realistic here. All of the talk of nuking this or that is just stupid) kill enough to bring about peace.


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## DA SWO (Nov 17, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Iraq and Afghanistan worked out well.
> 
> We're fighting an ideology. We need to put a boot on their necks but we're kidding ourselves if we think that's the only solution.
> 
> ...


Or isolate them, and a forced repatriation to their home countries.
Some will leak out, but it should be very telling that Islamic countries are not accepting these "refugees", Islamic countries don't rush billion dollar aid packages when another Islamic country suffers a natural disaster.
Why should we.


----------



## Red-Dot (Nov 17, 2015)

Why not have Iran or the Saudis carve out a "new home" for their down-trodden Muslim brothers?  Plenty of land there.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 17, 2015)

So "this" just happened-

Russia hits ISIS ‘capital’ with 34 cruise missile strikes


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## AWP (Nov 17, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> So "this" just happened-
> 
> Russia hits ISIS ‘capital’ with 34 cruise missile strikes



They are obliterating us in the PR war.

Their cruise missile strikes from the Caspian are "neat." They fly right over Iraq. So do the Iranians, but they use Russian aircraft for that, not cruise missiles.


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## Dienekes (Nov 17, 2015)

I find it strange that our airstrikes and offensive campaigns are often mired by someone decrying civilian casualties at every turn, but Russia has been bombing the shit out of everything, and I find nothing about civilian casualties even considered along with it.


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## TH15 (Nov 17, 2015)

I understand hitting "command centers" and such are important, but why are we, the Russians, the French, etc. hitting targets that cripple IS economically? For instance, I would imagine taking out the hydroelectric dam in Mosul would essentially shut down that region in terms of energy for them.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 17, 2015)

TH15 said:


> I understand hitting "command centers" and such are important, but why are we, the Russians, the French, etc. hitting targets that cripple IS economically? For instance, I would imagine taking out the hydroelectric dam in Mosul would essentially shut down that region in terms of energy for them.



And also destroy the entire agricultural water system for southern Iraq.


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## DA SWO (Nov 17, 2015)

Meh, I have to ask why? with all the smarts Military guys/gals running the show we haven't taken ISIL's (or DAESH) money machine  (AKA refineries, and pumping stations) out?

Limit their ability to generate revenue and you start to limit their ability to function.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 17, 2015)

Also, many don't understand or fail to acknowledge that that portion of Iraq and Syria (primarily the Shia area's) have a black market or more realistic a side market economic system. Kind of like a farmers market here in the states, but on a much grander scale. That area is not tapped into the host countries economy as one would imagine. It's also a key factor with regards to centralized government control, and regional areas not being represented at the national levels. 

But yeah, hard to control or destabilize a economy that is based on hundreds of years old trading and bartering, that is pretty well absent of the global systems.


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## TH15 (Nov 17, 2015)

I agree @DA SWO , and that's the point I was trying to make by using the Mosul Dam as an example.


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## Red-Dot (Nov 17, 2015)

I always thought we should have taken over the oilfields and crude refineries in Iraq and I think we still should. Not only as financial repayment but it would have also taken them away from ISIS control. Hey! that could be a good contractor gig!

Just saw Obama talking about Syrian refugees on FOX. Every time he talks it's like green diarrhea spewing from his pie hole.


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## The Accountant (Nov 17, 2015)

Red-Dot said:


> Just saw Obama talking about Syrian refugees on FOX. Every time he talks it's like green diarrhea spewing from his pie hole.



Thanks, I just stopped eating my salad.


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## Red-Dot (Nov 17, 2015)

K9Quest said:


> Thanks, I just stopped eating my salad.


Glad I could assist with my visual cues!


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## Dienekes (Nov 17, 2015)

TH15 said:


> I understand hitting "command centers" and such are important, but why are we, the Russians, the French, etc. hitting targets that cripple IS economically? For instance, I would imagine taking out the hydroelectric dam in Mosul would essentially shut down that region in terms of energy for them.





JAB said:


> And also destroy the entire agricultural water system for southern Iraq.



Interesting question that can be posed from this. How do you attack critical infrastructure to starve the occupying beast without being completely detrimental to the innocent society at large?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 17, 2015)

Dienekes said:


> Interesting question that can be posed from this. How do you attack critical infrastructure to starve the occupying beast without being completely detrimental to the innocent society at large?



This is where boots on the ground become necessary. You have to go in seize those assets and secure them. Then you dictate how they are utilized. The idea we can just drop a few bombs, kill a few head honchos and accomplish some sort of military victory, is completely insane. Those types of ideas generally come from jackasses with little to no understanding of conflict in a military sense, but seem to think they do, and push their uneducated opinions off as gold nuggets of wisdom.

Reality is you cannot conduct a successful military campaign without holding the ground, or more specifically the infrastructural assets on the ground. Why do you think we secured that dam, along with the oil refineries when we invaded the first time? Why do you think ISIS secured those assets as they advanced into Iraq? Why do you think Iraq was so quick to retake the dam? 

Here is something to think about; agriculture makes up some 30% of Iraq's GDP, The rest being in Oil +/- a few other things. That one dam in Mosul, controls all of southern Iraq's agricultural waters. Which is its most significant agricultural area in Iraq. Saddam Hussein knew this, and used it as a weapon to control southern Iraqi territories.

But anyway, yeah boots on the ground controlling the infrastructure assets, is how you ensure proper control and use (well at least how you pick which side will get to use it).


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## DA SWO (Nov 17, 2015)

Dienekes said:


> Interesting question that can be posed from this. How do you attack critical infrastructure to starve the occupying beast without being completely detrimental to the innocent society at large?


Sometimes the population needs to suffer, watch those animals cheering and clapping at the executions and tell me they deserve mercy.


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## Brill (Nov 17, 2015)

TH15 said:


> I understand hitting "command centers" and such are important, but why are we, the Russians, the French, etc. hitting targets that cripple IS economically?



Zero tolerance for collateral damage.


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## Dienekes (Nov 18, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> You have to go in seize those assets and secure them.



Sure, you can seize the damn, but if you cut off the water, the entire population suffers. ISIS, who still has the cities and ears of the people and farmers, blames you. Farmers listen to the propaganda and now hate you. You're now worse off than when you started because now people expect ISIS to retaliate and the farmers are inclined to help them because they want their water back. 

ISIS has been somewhat successful in holding ground because they seem to be providing some sort shaky of infrastructure to the people. My question is on how to cutoff ISIS' ability to provide that infrastructure without generating the ill will of the people because now they have to suffer. Essentially, I believe the only answer would be covert sabotage, such as rendering the dam ineffective but not destroying it, combined with solid information operations to blame it on ISIS' incompetency. Although the people have to suffer due to lack of infrastructure, ISIS takes the heat, not you. 

Anyone that wants to chime in, please do. I'm just trying to generate ideas on effectively defeating ISIS other than the "kill em all" approach.


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## AWP (Nov 18, 2015)

Dienekes said:


> ISIS has been somewhat successful in holding ground because they seem to be providing some sort shaky of infrastructure to the people. My question is on how to cutoff ISIS' ability to provide that infrastructure without generating the ill will of the people because now they have to suffer.



You are basically describing Afghanistan circa 2002. People tolerated them until they saw what the TB were about, but by then it was too late. Enter America and the people thought life would change.

It did, for about 12 years.

We can bomb whatever and whoever we want, but the people need to see real change, not Afghan temporary change.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 18, 2015)

Dienekes said:


> Sure, you can seize the damn, but if you cut off the water, the entire population suffers. ISIS, who still has the cities and ears of the people and farmers, blames you. Farmers listen to the propaganda and now hate you. You're now worse off than when you started because now people expect ISIS to retaliate and the farmers are inclined to help them because they want their water back.
> 
> ISIS has been somewhat successful in holding ground because they seem to be providing some sort shaky of infrastructure to the people. My question is on how to cutoff ISIS' ability to provide that infrastructure without generating the ill will of the people because now they have to suffer. Essentially, I believe the only answer would be covert sabotage, such as rendering the dam ineffective but not destroying it, combined with solid information operations to blame it on ISIS' incompetency. Although the people have to suffer due to lack of infrastructure, ISIS takes the heat, not you.
> 
> Anyone that wants to chime in, please do. I'm just trying to generate ideas on effectively defeating ISIS other than the "kill em all" approach.



ISIS, doesn't control the dam, the Iraqi forces have already secured it. ISIS does however, control a few oil wells, and those should be secured IMO. Geographically its a bit difficult without deploying large amounts of forces on the ground, with follow on support and opening up lines of communication (I.e. secure traveling routes for resupply and transport of oil). It would take a lot of troops and would cost alot of lives and equipment.

ISIS, is not necessarily providing an infrastructure to local populations, they are bringing a government structure that is inline with that areas tribal and religious belief's. 

The only way to make ISIS look as the bad option would be to make those areas somewhat autonyms government regions or allow them to break away from Iraq/Syrian governments and form their own government and or state. Iraq and Syria will most likely not do this, due to the oil rich areas and nationality. It would be like Texas saying we no longer want to be part of the US, so we're breaking away and keeping all our oil, just ain't gonna fly.

Going forward, those area's as Freefalling alluded to, will have to become tired of ISIS and seek outside help in overthrowing and removing ISIS (Your classic SF mission).

The kill them all, or at least kill them there instead of here strategy, is a counterterrorism strategy. No, we cannot kill every single ISIS fighter, but we can kill as much of them as possible, and make it undesirable to join and or continue fighting for ISIS. Keep them busy there vs giving them time and space to plan and attack here. 

Another option is a scorched earth, where we just destroy everything and everyone (this will probably be the Russian strategy) and although it will work in many aspects, the residuals effect's will be a follow on generation that will have a deep burning hate for the west/russia and the cycle will continue down the road.

The last option is genocide, kill their children's, children's, children. Remove that particular sect of Islam from humanity permanently. I imagine at some point the world as a whole will have to come to terms with this and accept it, if we want to move forward and out of the Islamic Terrorism age.

So no there really are no good options or golden bb options in dealing with this problem. If there was, we would've done it long ago.


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## Centermass (Nov 18, 2015)

Looks like good ol Willy P is back and raining on someone's parade........


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## R.Caerbannog (Nov 18, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Another option is a scorched earth, where we just destroy everything and everyone (this will probably be the Russian strategy) and although it will work in many aspects, the residuals effect's will be a follow on generation that will have a deep burning hate for the west/russia and the cycle will continue down the road.
> 
> The last option is genocide, kill their children's, children's, children. Remove that particular sect of Islam from humanity permanently. I imagine at some point the world as a whole will have to come to terms with this and accept it, if we want to move forward and out of the Islamic Terrorism age.



How about targeting the families of their officers? Both low and high level, that and any of their people involved in administrative niches that provide support to IS should also be prime targets. One could essentially torch the weed and its seeds before they spread. 

The families of these shitheads always think that they are immune, they act as if they are untouchable. I wonder how much of their smugness will dissipate when they realize that they are fair game. What kills me is how everyone is looking at the militant arm of IS and ignoring the support element. Their families are the main support element, I don't understand why they are not treated as such. 

At worst it could be a disincentive for lower level jihadis vying for leadership positions. At best it could cause a breakdown in and among low/high level managers. Also by killing off their admin/support personnel I'm willing to bet it will make running their territory more difficult. Doubt that they have an excess of admin/support people that can easily be replaced.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 19, 2015)

R.Caerbannog said:


> How about targeting the families of their officers? Both low and high level, that and any of their people involved in administrative niches that provide support to IS should also be prime targets. One could essentially torch the weed and its seeds before they spread.
> 
> The families of these shitheads always think that they are immune, they act as if they are untouchable. I wonder how much of their smugness will dissipate when they realize that they are fair game. What kills me is how everyone is looking at the militant arm of IS and ignoring the support element. Their families are the main support element, I don't understand why they are not treated as such.
> 
> At worst it could be a disincentive for lower level jihadis vying for leadership positions. At best it could cause a breakdown in and among low/high level managers. Also by killing off their admin/support personnel I'm willing to bet it will make running their territory more difficult. Doubt that they have an excess of admin/support people that can easily be replaced.



Sounds good in theory, but what would you do if your wife, kids or family was targeted and killed? Or say it happened to you best friend, or maybe someone you really cared for? Me, that would send me over the top, make my mission in life destroying whoever was involved.

And just b/c you don't hear it on the news, doesn't necessarily mean it hasn't been done.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 19, 2015)

R.Caerbannog said:


> How about targeting the families of their officers? Both low and high level, that and any of their people involved in administrative niches that provide support to IS should also be prime targets. One could essentially torch the weed and its seeds before they spread.



"Target the families" Really?  REALLY?  <<closing my eyes tight>>  Aside from that fact that "THAT'S NOT WHAT WE DO", what do you think the long term repercussions would be in regards to cooperation from area villages, not to mention the rest of the world?  Have you seen how the peace-niks react when a frustrated Marine pisses on a dead body?   Read up on how well "wiping out the families and villages"  went over in Vietnam...really, read up on it.


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## Centermass (Nov 19, 2015)

Confirmed:

*Suspected mastermind of Paris attacks Abaaoud died in police raid. *

Bagged his cousin as well. Well, she bagged herself. 

Link


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## CDG (Nov 19, 2015)

Targeting families is a horrible idea on every level.  How many moderate Muslims do you think all of a sudden decide to take up arms against us if we start doing that?  This isn't a fucking movie where we get the leadership on the phone and tell them we have their wives and kids, and they decide to order the whole team to surrender, and everyone goes home.  What the fuck dude?

Total war, as Diamondback 2/2 mentioned, is one thing.  That is a recognized strategy and I've even seen several discussions on it generated in college International Relations courses.  The deliberate and specific targeting of families is a completely different ball of wax.  As someone who drops bombs for a living, I would absolutely refuse a commander who attempted to get me to target a family.


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## Grunt (Nov 19, 2015)

I live by my signature line. I don't attack families just because. Kids can't pick their parents, if they choose later in life to come after us, then they become a target. We don't become "third world" to beat a foe, we beat them because we are better than they are.

Like @CDG said, total war is one thing, acting like the clowns is another.


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## Totentanz (Nov 19, 2015)

CDG said:


> Targeting families is a horrible idea on every level.  How many moderate Muslims do you think all of a sudden decide to take up arms against us if we start doing that?  This isn't a fucking movie where we get the leadership on the phone and tell them we have their wives and kids, and they decide to order the whole team to surrender, and everyone goes home.  What the fuck dude?



Forget the Muslims (just for a moment, to make the point) - what happens if the strategy works but you lose every last bit of support you enjoy from the entire western world?  Or even domestically?

I'm not one to make decisions driven by some Utopian idealistic view of our role in the world, but genocide isn't in my playbook.


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## R.Caerbannog (Nov 19, 2015)

The way I see things is that the families are a viable target. They cloth, feed, and take care of the needs of the fighters and their officers. From what I've seen online there is quite a bit of IS propaganda that outlines the importance/duties of families to their fighters. I doubt that these guys can govern/rule as easily without their wives/kids acting in a support role. By taking territory and occupying it they are out in the open, why not hammer them and everything they love? 

I know it sounds crass but I'm not talking about holding anyone hostage. Just saying to add their compounds to the approved target list and flatten them. No warning and no negotiation. Heck the pilot doesn't even have to know. We firebombed Dresden and dropped nukes on Japan, why are these people any different? They are actively trying to drag humanity back to the darkness of faith based ignorance.  

As for the social outcry why worry, in their eyes we are all guilty just for existing. Where was the public outcry when IS started to slaughter civilians and dump their bodies in mass graves? At some point we as a country have to come to terms that we can't always take the moral high ground.


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## AWP (Nov 19, 2015)

I watched some pred pr0n one day of a strike on your typical Afghan compound. The first bit of ordnance or two goes in and then you see squirters run out of a building, through the new hole in the wall, and 100 or so meters into a field where they pulled a 360. We brought in a Hellfire or two and broke up that party.

The next we're being briefed on the strike and everyone's cheering the squirter obliteration until we're told that was a group of women and children. We have young servicemembers crying. I shit you not. None of the O's or NCO's said a word. Being the asshole AWP I reminded everyone about the no-notice on the Twin Towers and that we don't order strikes on a whim. Some ISR platform (more likely multiple platforms) and possibly some SOF guys sat on top of this guy for days until we hit him. His family was unfortunate enough to be there. Given that a JAG approves probably approves every strike do we really think we'd drop/ shoot on that compound with non-combatants present?

JSOC has obliterated cells and organizations in various countries. While their efforts were undermined by the big picture, the fact remains we can "cha-cha-cha-cha kill-kill-kill-kill" if we want to and without going after their families.



R.Caerbannog said:


> We firebombed Dresden and dropped nukes on Japan, why are these people any different? They are actively trying to drag humanity back to the darkness of faith based ignorance.



Regarding that. From the US Strategic Bombing Survey:



> 4. The mental reaction of the German people to air attack is significant. Under ruthless Nazi control they showed surprising resistance to the terror and hardships of repeated air attack, to the destruction of their homes and belongings, and to the conditions under which they were reduced to live. Their morale, their belief in ultimate victory or satisfactory compromise, and their confidence in their leaders declined, but they continued to work efficiently as long as the physical means of production remained. *The power of a police state over its people cannot be underestimated*.



United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Summary  Report (European War)

ETA: Regarding the Japanese, it is a bit more nuanced. The USSBS considers bombing but ignores the role of submarines in reducing the caloric intake and subsequent effects on morale.

United States Strategic Bombing Survey: Summary Report (Pacific War)



> Progressively lowered morale was characterized by loss of faith in both military and civilian leaders, loss of confidence in Japan's military might and increasing distrust of government news releases and propaganda. People became short-tempered and more outspoken in their criticism of the government, the war and affairs in general*. Until the end, however, national traditions of obedience and conformity, reinforced by the police organization, remained effective in controlling the behavior of the population.* *The Emperor largely escaped the criticism which was directed at other leaders, and retained the people's faith in him. *It is probable that most Japanese would have passively faced death in a continuation of the hopeless struggle, had the Emperor so ordered. When the Emperor announced the unconditional surrender the first reaction of the people was one of regret and surprise, followed shortly by relief.



If we think an attack on civilians will do us any great good then we are sadly mistaken.


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## Grunt (Nov 19, 2015)

The outcry is tremendous when we have "accidental collateral damage." Imagine what it would be if we started carpet bombing families because they are families. 

I hear what you are saying in regards to the families being targets, but it isn't how we do business. Even in a support role, they aren't seen as combatants by the majority of the world -- except those that "practice terrorism."


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## AWP (Nov 19, 2015)

An excellent book on strategic bombing during WWII:

Richard Overy - The Bombers and the Bombed

He looked at a number of factors including the German bombing of English cities. The effects on morale and production in England mirrored those of Germany.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 19, 2015)

So how much blood, money and time do we spend fighting these people? 

We know what we have done in the past hasn't worked. We know that no matter how much we try to pacify and or bring that region into the modern era, they fall back to their barbaric ways. So how long does the rest if the modern world put up with these assholes. How long do we allow them to dictate the pace of how we evolve and or progress on a global scale.

I'm by no means a globalist or progressive for that matter. But damn, even my dumb redneck ass, can see that barbaric people don't belong on this planet at this time and age.


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 19, 2015)

1.  Let the Russians target families (they have in the past, and I have no doubt Putin will do it again).

2. D 2/2: We are in a holding, retrograde at the moment.  That's the best we can do until we get a President who doesn't think importing 100,000 jihadis annually is a good idea.
Hate to say it, but Cruz may be the only candidate that actually understands the immigration issue.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 19, 2015)

Took this off of SAWMAN's facebook, paints the picture pretty clear for the naysayers on stopping these refugees from coming in.


----------



## The Accountant (Nov 19, 2015)

Didn't read this specific article, browsed a couple from social media. The guy wants to buy an island, create an independent entity and keep the refugees busy building their own new nation. Not sure on the actual possibility of it occurring. 


Egyptian Billionaire Naguib Sawiris Offers To Buy Mediterranean Island For Refugees


----------



## AWP (Nov 19, 2015)

We're letting our humanity and thirst for the high road get in the way of dispassionate decision making. These guys can come in but the Iraq and Afghan interpreters who gave us so much, at great risk to they and their families, are turned away?

To paraphrase Doc Holliday from Tombstone, "Our hypocrisy knows no bounds."


----------



## pardus (Nov 21, 2015)

R.Caerbannog said:


> The way I see things is that the families are a viable target. They cloth, feed, and take care of the needs of the fighters and their officers. From what I've seen online there is quite a bit of IS propaganda that outlines the importance/duties of families to their fighters. I doubt that these guys can govern/rule as easily without their wives/kids acting in a support role. By taking territory and occupying it they are out in the open, why not hammer them and everything they love?
> 
> I know it sounds crass but I'm not talking about holding anyone hostage. Just saying to add their compounds to the approved target list and flatten them. No warning and no negotiation. Heck the pilot doesn't even have to know. We firebombed Dresden and dropped nukes on Japan, why are these people any different? They are actively trying to drag humanity back to the darkness of faith based ignorance.
> 
> As for the social outcry why worry, in their eyes we are all guilty just for existing. Where was the public outcry when IS started to slaughter civilians and dump their bodies in mass graves? At some point we as a country have to come to terms that we can't always take the moral high ground.



So you're also cool with the families of service members becoming legitimate targets? Like _your_ family?
I think even Al Qaeda has a ruling banning that now...

It's just a bad idea.


----------



## Frank S. (Nov 22, 2015)

Centermass said:


> Looks like good ol Willy P is back and raining on someone's parade........



 They say "Allah Akhbar" (sp? Oh who cares?) as often as I say "fuck".

I'm beginning to wonder if it means what I think it means....


----------



## Frank S. (Nov 22, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> View attachment 14471
> 
> Took this off of SAWMAN's facebook, paints the picture pretty clear for the naysayers on stopping these refugees from coming in.



And I don't mean to sound catty, but that's a hell of a thigh gap on the motherfucker...


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 22, 2015)

Frank S. said:


> And I don't mean to sound catty, but that's a hell of a thigh gap on the motherfucker...



Nevermind the head the dude is holding, what's up with those thighs...you're a strange bird Frank.


----------



## Tbone (Nov 22, 2015)

This is clearly the work of Allah granting him such a gap....women take note!!!


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Nov 22, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Nevermind the head the dude is holding, what's up with those thighs...you're a strange bird Frank.



Frank misses nothing!!


----------



## Red-Dot (Nov 22, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> ISIS, doesn't control the dam, the Iraqi forces have already secured it. ISIS does however, control a few oil wells, and those should be secured IMO. Geographically its a bit difficult without deploying large amounts of forces on the ground, with follow on support and opening up lines of communication (I.e. secure traveling routes for resupply and transport of oil). It would take a lot of troops and would cost alot of lives and equipment.
> 
> ISIS, is not necessarily providing an infrastructure to local populations, they are bringing a government structure that is inline with that areas tribal and religious belief's.
> 
> ...



Total war with ISIS will never happen. The triad of support (political, society and economy) will never happen. The Fickle American public would never support such a move let alone our impotent POTUS.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 22, 2015)

Red-Dot said:


> Total war with ISIS will never happen. The triad of support (political, society and economy) will never happen. The Fickle American public would never support such a move let alone our impotent POTUS.



I agree its not feasible currently, but after a few serious attacks here in the states, I think the attitude may possibly change. Maybe wishful thinking on my part, but I'm not looking forward to life style were a terror attack is common...


----------



## Gunz (Nov 23, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I agree its not feasible currently, but after a few serious attacks here in the states, I think the attitude may possibly change...


 
National anger is a powerful but fickle motivation. It tends to wane fairly quickly once American casualties start mounting; and once the media starts exploiting the personal stories of the wounded and maimed or the plight of our collateral casualties.  The American public can be swayed by the media and the media tends to be swayed by the propaganda of our enemies.

Any large force or coalition of forces that go in on the ground will inherit either the spoils or the curse of what comes after. They get to call the shots in the AO once ISIL is broken up and removed from it's position of authority; but they may inherit a long-term guerrilla campaign by ISIL's remnants. Personally, I think it's a risk worth taking to go in and ice these sadistic fucks face to face...but none of the Western leaders seem to feel that way. Even the French reaction to the Paris attacks--a promise to ramp-up air strikes--seems weak.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 23, 2015)

Apparently the Chinese missed the memo that Flame Throwers are a no-no -

While I certainly appreciate their creative initiative to killing weeds, being that it is China I am left with the nagging question of, were they really burning up ISIS terrorists, or just a group that China is not liking these days, and saying it's ISIS is an easy way to keep them out of trouble.

Chinese special forces use FLAMETHROWER to kill 'Islamist terrorists'


----------



## AWP (Nov 23, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> Even the French reaction to the Paris attacks--a promise to ramp-up air strikes--seems weak.



Our air war's a sham. The French launching strikes is great because prior to that they weren't doing much anyway. It plays well, is good PR, and they only need to sustain it for a week or so until the public furor dies out.

See also: Jordan, Turkey, and the UAE (though the latter is operating in Yemen, so that's something).


----------



## Frank S. (Nov 23, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> were they really burning up ISIS terrorists, or just a group that China is not liking these days, and saying it's ISIS is an easy way to keep them out of trouble.
> 
> Chinese special forces use FLAMETHROWER to kill 'Islamist terrorists'
> 
> View attachment 14485



Medics and members with forensics experience may chime in, but I'm pretty sure you could determine the bodies were those of terrorists by measuring the thigh gap.
It is apparently apparently developed following years of abhorrent sexual practices involving large mammals, Tonka (TM) trucks and boom boxes.


----------



## Frank S. (Nov 23, 2015)

Not to mention that dreadful business they do with stinky-slinkies in RV parks.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 24, 2015)

Frank S. said:


> Medics and members with forensics experience may chime in, but I'm pretty sure you could determine the bodies were those of terrorists by measuring the thigh gap.
> It is apparently apparently developed following years of abhorrent sexual practices involving large mammals, Tonka (TM) trucks and boom boxes.



The thigh gap, may be from a result of the donkey getting tired of taking it and in return giving it.

MOD DELETE OF VIDEO


----------



## Devildoc (Nov 24, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> The Russians have been violating Turkish Airspace since they arrived, essentially giving Turkey the middle finger.
> The Turks got lucky and had planes available, in the right spot to do something this time.
> 
> I want shoot down details though, Sidewinder missiles would be my first bet.


 
I am Finnish, and there are few countries that hate everyone as much as the Finns, and one of them is Turkey.  I agree....I think the Turks were just waiting for this to happen....they don't like Russia and all of that activity pisses Turkey off.

I also saw that pro-US rebels, using US-supplied weapons, shot down a Russian helo.  I am starting to get real curious as to how this is going going to play out.


----------



## x SF med (Nov 24, 2015)

Devildoc said:


> I am Finnish, and there are few countries that hate everyone as much as the Finns, and one of them is Turkey.  I agree....I think the Turks were just waiting for this to happen....they don't like Russia and all of that activity pisses Turkey off.
> 
> I also saw that pro-US rebels, using US-supplied weapons, shot down a Russian helo.  I am starting to get real curious as to how this is going going to play out.



Yeah, but Finland has produced guys like Lauri Torni (Larry Thorne)...  they're allowed to be pissed at the world.  Sorry the link is to Wikipedia, but it's the only reference with his German Valor medals.


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 24, 2015)

Devildoc said:


> I am Finnish, and there are few countries that hate everyone as much as the Finns, and one of them is Turkey.  I agree....I think the Turks were just waiting for this to happen....they don't like Russia and all of that activity pisses Turkey off.
> 
> *I also saw that pro-US rebels, using US-supplied weapons, shot down a Russian helo.  I am starting to get real curious as to how this is going going to play out*.



Bold face part:  You must have seen a different video than I, as the video I saw showed a helicopter on the ground, rotors stopped getting destroyed.


----------



## Devildoc (Nov 24, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Bold face part:  You must have seen a different video than I, as the video I saw showed a helicopter on the ground, rotors stopped getting destroyed.


 
Read it, did not see it.  So not surprised that different media reporting different things.


----------



## Devildoc (Nov 24, 2015)

x SF med said:


> Yeah, but Finland has produced guys like Lauri Torni (Larry Thorne)...  they're allowed to be pissed at the world.  Sorry the link is to Wikipedia, but it's the only reference with his German Valor medals.


 
Yeah, no doubt.  He is well-known and well-respected.  Finland also produced Simo Haya, another with a hard-on against the Russians.


----------



## Brill (Nov 24, 2015)

Regarding whether this is a religious war, how much do you know about the khawarij?  Sound like anyone we know?


----------



## x SF med (Nov 24, 2015)

lindy said:


> Regarding whether this is a religious war, how much do you know about the khawarij?  Sound like anyone we know?



The internecine wars among the Isalmic sects is only overshadowed by the inter and intratribal wars in the Middle East...  It makes the warfare among the intercity gangs in the US look tame and amateurish.


----------



## Brill (Nov 24, 2015)

x SF med said:


> The internecine wars among the Isalmic sects is only overshadowed by the inter and intratribal wars in the Middle East...  It makes the warfare among the intercity gangs in the US look tame and amateurish.



Exactly my point!!!!!

MISO should exploit these divisions and CREATE another fitna! If we cannot convince the "elected" leaders of Muslim countries to counter the IS, then maybe the clerics will issue fatwas and declare jihad on IS.

*The Decline Of The Khawarij*
This group came into existence towards the end of the fourth decade of the first century of the Hijrah as *the result of a dangerous piece of misrepresentation, and before one and half centuries were over, as the result of hysterical temerity and recklessness, they became the object of pursuance by the caliphs, which ended up with their own, and their sect's, annihilation and extermination*, and at the beginning of the `Abbasid rule they had become totally non-existent.

*It was their relentless and spiritless logic, the severity and harshness of their behavior, the incompatibility of their ways with real life, and, ultimately, their impetuosity (which even did away taqiyah [dissimulation]1 in its true and reasonable sense) which caused their ruin and destruction.* The Khawarij sect was not one which could in any real sense survive, but its after-effect has remained; the thinking and beliefs of Khawarij have had an effect on the rest of the sects of Islam. *Even today, "Nahrawanis" are to be found in abundance*, and, just as in the age and time of 'Ali, *these are the most dangerous of Islam's internal enemies*. Just as there always have been and always will be Mu'awiyahs and `Amr ibn al-`As's, who will use the existence of the "Nahrawanis" when the time is opportune, even if they are counted as their enemies.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 25, 2015)

lindy said:


> Exactly my point!!!!!
> 
> MISO should exploit these divisions and CREATE another fitna! If we cannot convince the "elected" leaders of Muslim countries to counter the IS, then maybe the clerics will issue fatwas and declare jihad on IS.
> 
> ...


 

I have little hope that after 8 centuries of killing each other because of different interpretations of the Koran that Muslims will suddenly become united in the fight against a sect that clearly scares the shit out of them. The millions of so-called "moderate" Muslims are too busy bitching about discrimination to do what they _really _need to do...and that is raise their voices in an earth-shattering global condemnation against the atrocities of their uncontrolled elements.


----------



## Frank S. (Nov 25, 2015)




----------



## Salt USMC (Nov 26, 2015)

ISIS really, really wants a fight

WATCH: ISIS Releases New ‘No Respite’ Propaganda Video in English


----------



## Brill (Nov 26, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> ISIS really, really wants a fight
> 
> WATCH: ISIS Releases New ‘No Respite’ Propaganda Video in English



Their thinking is very David Koresh-like.

The Islamic State Seeks the Battle of the Apocalypse  | Clarion Project


----------



## Salt USMC (Nov 26, 2015)

This article from der Spiegel has a very interesting take on who might actually be running ISIS

The Terror Strategist: Secret Files Reveal the Structure of Islamic State - SPIEGEL ONLINE - News - International

Summary: Former Baathists have co-opted Islamists and are really the ones running the show.


----------



## RackMaster (Nov 26, 2015)

@Deathy McDeath I have thought that since the beginning.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 26, 2015)

lindy said:


> Their thinking is very David Koresh-like.
> 
> The Islamic State Seeks the Battle of the Apocalypse  | Clarion Project


 

Good analogy that ISIL has super-sized. These motherfuckers would welcome self-annihilation as long as they got to take everybody else along for the ride.


----------



## Brill (Nov 27, 2015)

So much for Obama's leadership in the coalition to fight IS.  It's a sad day when France follows the mantra "in the absence of leadership, I will provide that leadership."

France Laurent Fabius says beating ISIS could require help from Bashar Assad forces


----------



## Rapid (Nov 30, 2015)

This gon' get interesting.

*Iraqi army warns of imminent assault on IS-held Ramadi*

Iraqi army warns of imminent assault on IS-held Ramadi - BBC News

A security source told the BBC leaflets had been dropped by planes, warning residents the army planned to storm the city within the next 24 hours.

However, a spokesperson for Ramadi residents called on the government to postpone the offensive. The spokesperson said thousands of families were being held by IS militants, who had set up checkpoints and threatened to kill anyone who attempted to leave. The US military believes there are between 600 and 1,000 IS militants in Ramadi. It says they have developed a strong defensive system in and around the city, including using improvised explosive devices (IEDs) to create minefields.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 30, 2015)

Hey guys, we're going to attack you tomorrow at 1530 hours. Be there or be square...

WTF?


----------



## TLDR20 (Nov 30, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Hey guys, we're going to attack you tomorrow at 1530 hours. Be there or be square...
> 
> WTF?



Everyone in the city isn't a combatant.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 30, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Everyone in the city isn't a combatant.



So what, you're going to have to PID threats as you assault anyway. There are always non-combatants, but telling the enemy when you're going to assault is just retarded. "Surprise, Speed, Violence of action" kinda tossing the whole "surprise" bit out and making the speed and violence of action bit incredibly more difficult. $.02


----------



## TLDR20 (Nov 30, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> So what, you're going to have to PID threats as you assault anyway. There are always non-combatants, but telling the enemy when you're going to assault is just retarded. "Surprise, Speed, Violence of action" kinda tossing the whole "surprise" bit out and making the speed and violence of action bit incredibly more difficult. $.02



I feel like if I was trying to take back a city in my own country, I would want to kill as few of my own citizens as possible.


----------



## AWP (Nov 30, 2015)

The city's probably a fortress by now and civilians are all over the place, including hostages. Still, I wouldn't broadcast my intentions. You gain nothing, or very little, while giving your adversary another 24 hours to "make a list and check it twice."

Better for him to wake up and look across the Channel at hundreds of ships than shout "Ready or not, here I come."


----------



## racing_kitty (Nov 30, 2015)

We've already established that Daesh's idea of diplomatic negotiations is "Convert or die," so it's not unreasonable to rule out a diplomatic response to the possibility of families being held hostage in Ramadi.  That being said, do you simply let them have it, and pick them off as they leave town, let them keep that godforsaken city, or go in for the fight and do your best to not kill the hostages?  Besides, there's just as much of a chance that any Daesh fighter will kill his hostages before any opponent actually engages him, anyway.  

On another note, it looks like the Kurds are torturing their Daesh prisoners.  It's my understanding that neither the Peshmerga nor Daesh are recognized as states, and aren't subject to the Geneva Convention (especially considering they aren't signatories).  Personally, I say let the Peshmerga have it it.  They led the raid that resulted in the capture, we never turned anyone over to anybody.  Don't let our inherent imperialism interfere with their understanding of justice.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 1, 2015)

Rapid said:


> However, a spokesperson for Ramadi residents called on the government to postpone the offensive. The spokesperson said thousands of families were being held by IS militants, who had set up checkpoints and threatened to kill anyone who attempted to leave. The US military believes there are between 600 and 1,000 IS militants in Ramadi. It says they have developed a strong defensive system in and around the city, including using improvised explosive devices (IEDs) to create minefields.


 

It doesn't matter whether or not they give advance warning, it's gonna be a bloodbath either way. If it's true that they hold "thousands of families" and intend to begin executing them when the shooting starts, whether they've had a week's notice or five minutes won't make much difference to the people getting shot. If this is the case the "friendlies" won't have to worry about collateral casualties because Daesh will see to it that there are scores of them. And they can always blame those deaths on the assault force.

I'm assuming the "spokesperson" isn't saying a god damn thing without the approval of Daesh. Obviously postponement benefits the defenders and gives them time to improve their positions...but it sounds like they've already rigged things up pretty tight.


----------



## Blizzard (Dec 1, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Out of curiosity I compared this flight with Air France Flight 447. This one is an Airbus 321 and 447 was an A330. Wikipedia has a solid* write-up of 447's demise and if you're bored you can look it up.
> Air France Flight 447 - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
> 
> Using the CNN article and its referenced Flightradar24 you'll see some similarities:
> ...


This is off topic from this thread (mods please move/remove as needed) but, in reference to the post above, this may be of interest to some here:
NTSC

Komite Nasional Keselamatan Transportasi (KNKT), Indonesia's version of the NTSB, released their final accident report today for Indonesia AirAsia Flight 8501.  This flight crashed into the Java Sea last year, killing all 155 passengers and seven crew on board.  Similar to Air France Flight 447, KNKT found this flight, an A320, ultimately entered a stall at 38,500 ft and the aircrew was unable to recover.



			
				KNKT Final Accident Report said:
			
		

> At 2317:41 UTC the aircraft reached the highest ISIS altitude of 38,500 feet and the largest roll angle of 104° to the left. The aircraft then lost altitude with a descent rate of up to 20,000 feet per minute.
> 
> 
> At approximately 29,000 feet the aircraft attitude was wings level with pitch and roll angles of approximately zero with the airspeed varied between 100 and 160 knots. The Angle of Attack (AOA)5 was almost constant at approximately 40° up and the stall warning continued until the end of recording. The aircraft then lost altitude with an average rate of 12,000 feet per minute until the end of the recording.


----------



## AWP (Dec 1, 2015)

CJCS General Dunford: We have not contained ISIL currently.

But, but...the President said they were contained!  

Top military officer contradicts Obama, says ISIS not 'contained' | Fox News

It is a good thing we aren't putting boots on the ground or expanding our role, other things we were promised. Or that red line which couldn't be crossed. Or...man, when is someone from the administration going to tell the truth?



> At the Tuesday hearing, Defense Secretary Ash Carter also announced that the U.S. will send special ops forces to Syria while expanding its special ops presence in Iraq, to bolster the fight against ISIS.
> 
> Carter described the expansion in Iraq as a “specialized expeditionary targeting force.”
> 
> He said these special operators will be able to conduct raids, free hostages, gather intelligence and capture ISIS leaders. He did not offer troop numbers, but said it was being done in cooperation with the Iraqi government.



To quote Winnie the Pooh, "Oh, bother."


----------



## Brill (Dec 1, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Or...man, when is someone from the administration going to tell the truth?



When Hillary and Bill are back home.


----------



## jjgli (Dec 1, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> ...when is someone from the administration going to tell the truth?


 Since when does anyone from any administration tell the truth?


----------



## Dame (Dec 1, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> CJCS General Dunford: We have not contained ISIL currently.
> 
> But, but...the President said they were contained!



Yeah, to this planet.

ETA: 


> *U.S. Ally Accused of Abusing ISIS Prisoners*



OMG. Cannot stop laughing at this.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 1, 2015)

jjgli said:


> Since when does anyone from any administration tell the truth?


----------



## Blizzard (Dec 2, 2015)

Iraqis think the U.S. is in cahoots with the Islamic State, and it is hurting the war


> BAIJI, Iraq — On the front lines of the battle against the Islamic State, suspicion of the United States runs deep. Iraqi fighters say they have all seen the videos purportedly showing U.S. helicopters airdropping weapons to the militants, and many claim they have friends and relatives who have witnessed similar instances of collusion.
> 
> Ordinary people also have seen the videos, heard the stories and reached the same conclusion — one that might seem absurd to Americans but is widely believed among Iraqis — that the United States is supporting the Islamic State for a variety of pernicious reasons that have to do with asserting U.S. control over Iraq, the wider Middle East and, perhaps, its oil.
> 
> ...


Uh huh.  Sigh.

I try to take reports like this with a grain of salt but for crying out loud already...  What's our strategy here again?


----------



## jjgli (Dec 2, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


>



That's like planting a bomb, setting a timer, then bein like: if a bomb were to happen to go off, the result would be disastrous.


----------



## AWP (Dec 2, 2015)

I was once very supportive of the Iraq war, then not, but now with the clarity of hindsight I think it was the right war, at the wrong time, and with the wrong strategy. It hurt us in Afghanistan and negated any leverage we had with North Korea or Iran over their nuke programs We found WMD's but not THE WMD's or circumstances we used to go in. It massively hurt our credibility, but was also inevitable and necessary, just not then and not how we waged the war.

At this point it is futile to argue over it, let the historians do that, but our job should be to recover. We can assign blame and gnash our teeth in peacetime. You don't point fingers when men are dying; that's for peacetime.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 2, 2015)

I think our biggest failure in Iraq was dismantling the government infrastructure and trying to rebuild it. Dabbling with a tribal political system we didn't clearly understand and attempting to pick and choose the leaders.

As for why we went in and if it was right or wrong, I think it was right, just poorly planned. I think the exit strategy used was foolish, and I believe that strategy is the direct result of IS.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 2, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I think our biggest failure in Iraq was dismantling the government infrastructure and trying to rebuild it. Dabbling with a tribal political system we didn't clearly understand and attempting to pick and choose the leaders.
> 
> As for why we went in and if it was right or wrong, I think it was right, just poorly planned. I think the exit strategy used was foolish, and I believe that strategy is the direct result of IS.


 
You guys killed a lot of people who needed to die. You rid the world of a sadistic piece of shit and his cohorts. Nothing wrong with that. And nothing wrong with planting the seeds of democracy in a region (with the exception of Israel) that's never known it. You couldn't have fucked up the Middle East any more than it already was...and is. And the sacrifice may yet reap benefits in the future.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 2, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I was once very supportive of the Iraq war, then not, but now with the clarity of hindsight I think it was the right war, at the wrong time, and with the wrong strategy. It hurt us in Afghanistan and negated any leverage we had with North Korea or Iran over their nuke programs We found WMD's but not THE WMD's or circumstances we used to go in. It massively hurt our credibility, but was also inevitable and necessary, just not then and not how we waged the war.
> 
> At this point it is futile to argue over it, let the historians do that, but our job should be to recover. We can assign blame and gnash our teeth in peacetime. You don't point fingers when men are dying; that's for peacetime.



Agree, a large segment (majority) of the Afghan population was happy to see us, and had high hopes.
Rumsfeld limiting assets to fight Iraq cost us the Strategic and Tactical advantage.
We compounded the problem by not taking the opium fields out, not attempting to limit the corruption (stealing of tax dollars).
We should have gone in, blasted the shit out of everything and left; I don't say this to be cute; but we adopted a strategy of not winning a winnable war.
Rumsfeld obsession with reform turned this into a decades long quagmire.



Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I think our biggest failure in Iraq was dismantling the government infrastructure and trying to rebuild it. Dabbling with a tribal political system we didn't clearly understand and attempting to pick and choose the leaders.
> 
> As for why we went in and if it was right or wrong, I think it was right, just poorly planned. I think the exit strategy used was foolish, and I believe that strategy is the direct result of IS.



Agree, we did not have a post-hostilities plan and it showed.



Ocoka One said:


> You guys killed a lot of people who needed to die. You rid the world of a sadistic piece of shit and his cohorts. Nothing wrong with that. And nothing wrong with planting the seeds of democracy in a region (with the exception of Israel) that's never known it. You couldn't have fucked up the Middle East any more than it already was...and is. And the sacrifice may yet reap benefits in the future.



We could have waited 2-4 years and still had the same (or better) outcome.


----------



## AWP (Dec 5, 2015)

This is an awesome nugget of commentary:

UK jets hit ISIS oilfield as Typhoons fly first missions - CNN.com



> In a statement on the Iraqi Prime Minister's *Facebook page -- apparently the new method governments use to communicate with each other *-- Iraq called on Turkey to withdraw immediately from the Iraqi territory. The statement said the Turkish troops, accompanied by tanks and weaponry, had entered the country without authorization from Iraqi authorities.



Hilarious. Who'd think I would agree with CNN's editorializing? As to the second part, the coalition and the Iraqi gov't gave the Turks permission to enter Iraqi airspace and bomb the Kurds...notionally people who are Iraqi citizens. We even carved out "Turkey only" airspace over Iraq. Now Iraq's "surprised" Turkish troops are "illegally" on Iraqi soil? C'mon man...


----------



## Brill (Dec 5, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I was once very supportive of the Iraq war, then not, but now with the clarity of hindsight I think it was the right war, at the wrong time, and with the wrong strategy. It hurt us in Afghanistan and negated any leverage we had with North Korea or Iran over their nuke programs We found WMD's but not THE WMD's or circumstances we used to go in. It massively hurt our credibility, but was also inevitable and necessary, just not then and not how we waged the war.
> 
> At this point it is futile to argue over it, let the historians do that, but our job should be to recover. We can assign blame and gnash our teeth in peacetime. You don't point fingers when men are dying; that's for peacetime.



Sadly we haven't learned the lessons of regime change, which worked in Japan and Germany but has failed in Iraq, Libya, etc and apparently we're going down the same path in Syria.

Honestly what the fuck did we think would happen when we dissolved the Iraqi security apparatus? We had a commission look into 9/11 for "lessons learned...why not post-invasion too?


----------



## Brill (Dec 6, 2015)

> New Jersey Gov. Chris *Christie rejected the idea that Muslims would be offended by the use of specific terminology* to describe the threat.
> 
> "Now *when you say radical Islamic jihadist, they understand, the rest of the Muslim community understands*," Christie said on "Face the Nation."
> 
> ...



The arrogance of this President and his staff are unimaginable.

Mr. Baghdadi is said to have a doctorate in Islamic studies from a university in Baghdad, and was a mosque preacher in his hometown, Samarra.


----------



## Brill (Dec 6, 2015)

^^^^
This tells me there is actually some (probably a metric fuck-ton) of truth to the analyst VS CENTCOM leadership censoring of reporting.


----------



## Brill (Dec 6, 2015)

lindy said:


> The arrogance of this President and his staff are unimaginable.
> 
> Mr. Baghdadi is said to have a doctorate in Islamic studies from a university in Baghdad, and was a mosque preacher in his hometown, Samarra.



I know it's heresy to quote one's post but I was wrong.  Hillary's dumbassary has Obama beat by a mile.  To think that all we need to do to stop the jihad against the West is to stop using terms like "radical Islam" is kindergarten logic at best: if we don't make them mad at us, they won't fight us.

Clinton explains why she won't say 'radical Islam' - CNNPolitics.com

Then again, is she wrong?  I bet IS wouldn't attack Americans if we implemented Sharia law...and I'm sure they will OK with a female President.  Whabbi women drive, vote, go out in public alone, so why not become POTUS too???

Jesus, I wish she would just be honest and admit how much $$$ Islamic charities have "donated" to her campaign.


----------



## Etype (Dec 8, 2015)

I think a good application of a lesson learned from Iraq would be to deal with IS, but leave Assad in power. 

If he brings some semblance of control over the country, it's better than the alternative.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 9, 2015)

Etype said:


> I think a good application of a lesson learned from Iraq would be to deal with IS, but leave Assad in power.
> 
> If he brings some semblance of control over the country, it's better than the alternative.


 
Terrific idea because whoever eventually tackles IS on the ground--and I believe that will have to happen--will kill half and scatter the rest like cockroaches who'll reemerge somewhere else and/or go guerilla. "Defeat" IS and you inherit a clusterfuck that could tie you up for years. But...wouldn't it have to be the Russians who could make this happen? I can't see the US or NATO buying into the plan.


----------



## Rapid (Dec 9, 2015)

Short of something like a chemical attack in Europe or the US, I don't see any NATO countries going in on the ground (outside of special operations) in the near future...


----------



## Brill (Dec 9, 2015)

Congress has a field day with how the war is being fought.

http://www.usnews.com/news/articles...an-opposition-scuttles-no-fly-zone?int=a14709

We have not recommended it because the political situation on the ground and the potential for miscalculation and loss of American life in the air in an attempt to defend the no-fly zone don't warrant the no-fly zone." 

The response by Selva, the second-highest military officer in the country and chief adviser to President Barack Obama, visibly angered some members of the committee, particularly its chairman, Sen. John McCain.

"General, I must say, that's one of the most embarrassing statements I've heard from a uniformed military officer," said the Arizona Republican, who has been one of the most vocal proponents of a no-fly zone since the beginning of the Syrian civil war. "That we are worried about Syria's and Russia's reaction to saving the lives of thousands and thousands of Syrians who are being barrel bombed and massacred. So far, 240,000 of them."

"Remarkable performance," McCain said sarcastically.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 9, 2015)

McCain is an idiot.
We had UN resolution to allow previous no-fly zones.
Declaring Syria a no-fly zone directly challenges Putin, and effectively declares war on Syria.
McCain, of all Congressional Critters, should know better.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Dec 10, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> McCain is an idiot.
> We had UN resolution to allow previous no-fly zones.
> Declaring Syria a no-fly zone directly challenges Putin, and effectively declares war on Syria.
> McCain, of all Congressional Critters, should know better.



We learned who McCain is when he gave the White House to obama.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 10, 2015)

Etype said:


> I think a good application of a lesson learned from Iraq would be to deal with IS, but leave Assad in power.
> 
> If he brings some semblance of control over the country, it's better than the alternative.



I agree for the most part, Assad is a POS and should be replaced. However, now is definitely not the time for that. Syria is so badly war-torn at this point, it will need some formation of what used to be normal to get things somewhat back on track at the conclusion of the civil war. 

Personally, I think the Syrian government and the rebel forces should attempt a political agreement, to deal with IS, and after which, give a time line for a free election, that Assad is not on the ballet. If Assad would agree to terms like that, the rebel force would most likely agree as well at this point. If that agreement could happen, a joint coalition could seriously attack IS on the ground and route them out.

Syria is still going to be a mess for many years to come, but if they could stop the infighting under a political agreement long enough to squash IS, I think it would set them on a path to reforms.


----------



## Brill (Dec 10, 2015)

wow.

http://soufangroup.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/12/TSG_ForeignFightersUpdate1.pdf


----------



## Etype (Dec 11, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> ... Assad is a POS and should be replaced.


According to your western perspective. When it comes to countries in that region with multiple religious and ethnic groups, a "good" or "ethical" leader will NEVER be able to exercise any semblance of control.


----------



## AWP (Dec 11, 2015)

Some people/ cultures need a dictator. We value freedom so much that we can't comprehend a world without it, but look how long it took in the West for a democracy/ republic to work again. Some folks just aren't ready to rule themselves....and may never be ready.


----------



## AWP (Dec 11, 2015)

I thought @lindy made this point earlier but couldn't find it.

U.S. report warns of ISIS creating fake passports - CNNPolitics.com



> Washington (CNN)—A new intelligence report shared with law enforcement warns of ISIS' ability to create passports utilizing seized Syrian government assets, according to a law enforcement official with direct knowledge of the intelligence report's contents.
> 
> The report warned that, based on U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement's intelligence sources, ISIS has access to passport printing machines and blank passport books, raising the possibility the documents could be faked, according to the source.



Good luck vetting those refugees.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 11, 2015)

Etype said:


> According to your western perspective. When it comes to countries in that region with multiple religious and ethnic groups, a "good" or "ethical" leader will NEVER be able to exercise any semblance of control.



Very good point, and I do agree.

However, the end game has always been to bring the whole middle east into the modern world, to include western style democracy. I could be wrong about Assad, maybe they need to keep him for a few more years, however, the whole problem did start with his country protesting his being in office and his way of dealing with said protesters.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 11, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Some people/ cultures need a dictator. We value freedom so much that we can't comprehend a world without it, but look how long it took in the West for a democracy/ republic to work again. Some folks just aren't ready to rule themselves....and may never be ready.




I agree and disagree, the end game since we went into Afghanistan and Iraq was to bring western style democracy to the middle east, to change or allow the culture to change.

Our government had all kinds of growing pains, many called for a dictatorship or a king, etc. Hell we had a huge civil war, to include many small scale insurrection. We still have our own problems.

So I think its premature to judge a true and free democracies in the middle east, when they are relatively new, historically speaking. I mean to be real honest, its probably going to be 50-75 years before we know if that strategy works.


----------



## Brill (Dec 11, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I thought @lindy made this point earlier but couldn't find it.
> 
> U.S. report warns of ISIS creating fake passports - CNNPolitics.com
> 
> ...



Wait a sec...I have no knowledge of what ISIL is or isn't doing with regards to travel documentation. My assertion was based on common sense and videos of ISIL soldiers raiding ISF weapons depots. If they can raid storage buildings and banks, one could deduce that travel docs, ID cards, etc would be available too.

(Check this mo fo trying to get me to share a cell & shack up with Bergdhal in the Federal "poke" house.)


----------



## Brill (Dec 11, 2015)

Etype said:


> According to your western perspective. When it comes to countries in that region with multiple religious and ethnic groups, a "good" or "ethical" leader will NEVER be able to exercise any semblance of control.



We should have learned that from Yugoslavia. Tito kept things under control until he died...the country died not long after.


----------



## AWP (Dec 11, 2015)

lindy said:


> Wait a sec...I have no knowledge of what ISIL is or isn't doing with regards to travel documentation. My assertion was based on common sense and videos of ISIL soldiers raiding ISF weapons depots. If they can raid storage buildings and banks, one could deduce that travel docs, ID cards, etc would be available too.
> 
> (Check this mo fo trying to get me to share a cell & shack up with Bergdhal in the Federal "poke" house.)



Maybe Bowe could be your "bae" and Chelsea M. could watch? 

I just threw up a little. My bad.


----------



## Brill (Dec 11, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Maybe Bowe could be your "bae" and Chelsea M. could watch?
> 
> I just threw up a little. My bad.



Bae Watch???


----------



## AWP (Dec 11, 2015)

lindy said:


> Bae Watch???


----------



## Etype (Dec 12, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Very good point, and I do agree.
> 
> However, the end game has always been to bring the whole middle east into the modern world, to include western style democracy. I could be wrong about Assad, maybe they need to keep him for a few more years, however, the whole problem did start with his country protesting his being in office and his way of dealing with said protesters.


I think the result of a true democracy in Syria and/or Iraq would result in a repeat of exactly what we have- a civil war.  Shias came to power in both Syria and Iraq, the Sunnis saw it as a big threat- enter ISIS. 

If a Sunni gov't was elected, you'd see the same thing with an Iran backed force.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 12, 2015)

lindy said:


> We should have learned that from Yugoslavia. Tito kept things under control until he died...


 

Yep. Syria seems to me to be the kind of chaotic environment that only concentrated, centralized power could bring under control. And before you can introduce anything remotely resembling a representative-type government you need to get things under control. Whatever it takes. Patton got intense flak for employing Nazis to run the infrastructure but they were the best people for the job because they knew how to run things.


----------



## JBS (Dec 12, 2015)

The architect of the Arab Spring, and domestically the 'Solidarity' movement would disagree with you.

Somehow either her plan failed and the Twitter generation across the Peninsuala/N.Africa and the Middle East didn't rise up to take control of the voids left in all these nations as expected (being instead filled by Jihadists),or else the current chaos was her plan.

Neither is acceptable.  (Despite this, she's still being considered for potus).


Etype said:


> I think a good application of a lesson learned from Iraq would be to deal with IS, but leave Assad in power.
> 
> If he brings some semblance of control over the country, it's better than the alternative.


----------



## Brill (Dec 13, 2015)

Bring back the OSS?

America’s Not Ready for Today’s Gray Wars


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 13, 2015)

lindy said:


> Bring back the OSS?
> 
> America’s Not Ready for Today’s Gray Wars


Yes, the CIA has become bloated and career oriented.
I think you have to re-invent the wheel (STS) every now and then to keep innovation alive.


----------



## Etype (Dec 14, 2015)

lindy said:


> Bring back the OSS?
> 
> America’s Not Ready for Today’s Gray Wars


I think it's kind of cheap that a former SOCOM CDR would write an article about a community that exists almost solely in the TS realm. My personal opinion is that he should abstain from commenting negatively on something he knows he can't even really talk about.

Without playing the, "my clearance has me privy to things you'll never understand," game- I think most folks would agree that the US IC, both on the military side and otherwise, is more robust than ever, is the most capable in the world by a long shot, and continues to evolve.


----------



## Etype (Dec 14, 2015)

lindy said:


> Bring back the OSS?


https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...vUfpV1GtJb-CveGUg&sig2=Y5uCve6GDBsWi1aV4YTvsA

Page 13.


----------



## Florida173 (Dec 14, 2015)

Etype said:


> I think it's kind of cheap that a former SOCOM CDR would write an article about a community that exists almost solely in the TS realm. My personal opinion is that he should abstain from commenting negatively on something he knows he can't even really talk about.
> 
> Without playing the, "my clearance has me privy to things you'll never understand," game- I think most folks would agree that the US IC, both on the military side and otherwise, is more robust than ever, is the most capable in the world by a long shot, and continues to evolve.



That guy was never a fan of the intel community, so it makes sense that he doesn't know much about it


----------



## Gunz (Dec 15, 2015)

Dudes...Hillary is about to reveal her master plan for the destruction of ISIS. :whatever:


----------



## TH15 (Dec 15, 2015)

I think her plan for ISIS involves Bill Clinton making a speech in Raqqa to enlighten the jihadists about the dangers of climate change and then Abu Bakr al Baghdadi subsequently donating money to the Clinton Foundation.. If he already hasn't already.


----------



## AWP (Dec 17, 2015)

The Russian presence is dictating our participation in the  air war...the air war we started and are the driving force behind. Lots of dumb and WTF in the article below, most of it infuriating. We just look weak.

New Russian Air Defenses in Syria Keep U.S. Grounded



> There is a new crisis for the international effort to destroy the Islamic State, created by the Kremlin. The *U.S. has stopped flying manned air-support missions* for rebels in a key part of *northern Syria* due to Russia’s expansion of air defense systems there, and *the Barack Obama administration is scrambling to figure out what to do about it*.


----------



## Brill (Dec 17, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> The Russian presence is dictating our participation in the  air war...the air war we started and are the driving force behind. Lots of dumb and WTF in the article below, most of it infuriating. We just look weak.
> 
> New Russian Air Defenses in Syria Keep U.S. Grounded



Wow.



> These heightened tensions between the U.S. and Russia on the ground run counter to the public outreach Kerry has been pursuing as part of his effort to kick-start a peace process between the Syrian regime and the opposition. In remarks at the Kremlin Tuesday, Kerry said he was “grateful for President Putin” and looked forward to cooperating with Russia on the fight against the Islamic State. Kerry will meet with Russian leaders again Friday in New York.
> 
> Kerry also said the U.S. is not pursuing “regime change” in Syria,comments that were seen by many as another step away from the long-held U.S. call for Assad to step down. The latest U.S.-Russia talks didn’t focus on Assad’s status, Kerry said, adding that he was working to establish a political process that would allow Syrians to choose their own leadership.


----------



## Rapid (Dec 18, 2015)

Not Iraq or IS, but here's more news that the MSM loves to eat up. I mean, just look at the title the chose to go with...

*Libya militia chases away US troops*

US forces flown to Libya to support government troops had to leave after landing because of demands from a local militia group, US officials say. It follows reports that 20 US special forces troops, equipped with advanced weaponry, landed on Monday at an airbase in western Libya. 

Libya militia chases away US troops - BBC News


----------



## Trev (Dec 18, 2015)

Canadian SOF and Kurds involved in firefight with IS. Apparently the largest firefight Canadians in Iraq have been involved in. Funny how when the Conservatives were in power the Liberals said it was a combat mission if CANSOF even saw a rounf fired in anger. But now that the Liberals are in power they say this firefight dosen't mean it's a combat mission. They still want to remove Canadian CAS from the area. Politicians still can't seem to understand that when the military is deployed to a war zone they should be prepared for contact. Canadian special forces help fight off 'significant' ISIL attack in Iraq


----------



## CDG (Dec 18, 2015)

This just happened in my neighborhood a couple weeks ago. 

Harrisburg, Pa. man, 19, accused of trying to aid ISIS


----------



## Brill (Dec 21, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> Dudes...Hillary is about to reveal her master plan for the destruction of ISIS. :whatever:



I like how she claims that Trump is being used to recruit ISIL fighters.  She has no idea or will not admit how Islam *REQUIRES* followers to move to the caliphate per the caliph's instructions.  It has nothing to do with old school Al-Qaida recruitment.



> Pray to God and study the true Khalifa of Islam. Only then was I, and will you, be able to come to the realization of our greater humanity and overcome any notion of happiness being achieved through terrorism, cruelty, or warfare within Islam.
> 
> Do not join ISIS. Do not join such barbarians where you wake up with hatred of humanity and go to sleep wishing death on others. Instead, *pray to God, study Prophet Muhammad’s wisdom and the core of Islam, and join the Caliphate of Islam Ahmadiyya.* While once angry and frustrated, I now wake up with “love for all” and go to sleep with “hatred for none.” This is the true Islamic Caliphate to unite the Ummah.



http://www.faithstreet.com/onfaith/...uslim-should-join-the-islamic-caliphate/36368



> Muslim reported that Ibn Umar said the Prophet ordered every Muslim to obey their leader unless commanded to do something bad, in which case they must neither obey nor listen. Muslim also reported that Ibn Malik said the best leader is the one where mutual love exists between him and the people, and the worst leader generates mutual hate. However, even in the latter case, fighting the Khalifa is prohibited unless he enters kufr by stopping prayers or zakat for example. Ibn As-Samit reported that the Prophet said to obey him in all things and situations, and not to remove the leaders unless they openly practice kufr. Abu Daud reports from Ibn Ujrah that the Prophet entered a masjid, and said there will come leaders after him who disobey the Qur'an and Allah. Those who help them are not of the Muslims, but if someone opposes them, he or she is of the Prophet's people. Courtesy of www.usc.edu



Islamic-World.net:Khalifah site for Muslims who love Allah and Jihad.


----------



## CQB (Dec 29, 2015)

Combined raid

Kurdish, US Commandos Raid Daesh Base Behind Enemy Lines in Iraq – Media / Sputnik International


----------



## Brill (Jan 2, 2016)

Very different narrative about the Ramadi "victory".

http://www.newsweek.com/after-ramadi-more-us-help-needed-410653


----------



## Gunz (Jan 2, 2016)

Bottom line in Iraq seems to be that nobody's able to get all their shit in one ditty bag.


----------



## Brill (Jan 9, 2016)

'Kill-Em-All With Airstrikes' Is Not Working

Here’s a summary of the anti-ISIS bombing campaign: 30,000 fighters - 20,000 killed = 30,000 fighters


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 9, 2016)

lindy said:


> 'Kill-Em-All With Airstrikes' Is Not Working
> 
> Here’s a summary of the anti-ISIS bombing campaign: 30,000 fighters - 20,000 killed = 30,000 fighters


Part of the problem is we go all emo every time a bomb kills civilians, we need to learn how to shrug shoulders and press fwd (that and tell Turkey to stop training ISIL)


----------



## Gunz (Jan 11, 2016)

Air power alone is never enough. And yet the proponants of stand-alone air campaigns never seem to learn from the past. How many bombs did we drop on Japanese-held islands in the Pacific and yet we still had to engage with rifles and grenades. Goring thought he could bring England to its knees through bombing alone. LBJ believed he could bring Ho Chi Minh to the negotiating table by bombing the shit out of North Vietnam. In WW2 we fire-bombed Japanese cities and dropped two atomic bombs and they still would've fought to the death if the Emperor hadn't commanded them to surrender.

ISIL isn't standing in one big clusterfuck waiting on a JDAM. They're all over the fucking place and you can't tell an ISIL dude from anybody else from the air unless they've got an RPG on their shoulder. WTF are we bombing? Buildings? Objects? Grid locations where nobody is?


----------



## Grunt (Jan 11, 2016)

The air strikes are gap fillers to give the appearance that we are taking large leaps and bounds to aid the plight against ISIS without really doing much.

But, I figure I am preaching to the choir.


----------



## Brill (Jan 11, 2016)

I think Obama is whining to his Generals that air war defeated Miloshevich and Qaddafi so why not Baghdadi?


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jan 12, 2016)

lindy said:


> I think Obama is whining to his Generals that air war defeated Miloshevich and Qaddafi so why not Baghdadi?



I have no idea what ever regarding what Obama is doing. More frightening yet, is that neither does he.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 12, 2016)

lindy said:


> I think Obama is whining to his Generals that air war defeated Miloshevich and Qaddafi so why not Baghdadi?


 
Probably. And without any thought that in the Bosnian War NATO air assets actually had real targets and positions to engage instead of an enemy that disperses itself among the population. But hey, Clinton's a military genius so if he can be one, why not Obama?


----------



## Blizzard (Jan 12, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Probably. And without any thought that in the Bosnian War NATO air assets actually had real targets and positions to engage instead of an enemy that disperses itself among the population. But hey, Clinton's a military genius so if he can be one, why not Obama?


Yeah, but you forget Mrs. Clinton has actual combat experience, what with taking sniper fire and all, so that gives them a leg up.


----------



## Rapid (Jan 14, 2016)

TH15 said:


> I think her plan for ISIS involves Bill Clinton making a speech in Raqqa to enlighten the jihadists about the dangers of climate change and then Abu Bakr al Baghdadi subsequently donating money to the Clinton Foundation.. If he already hasn't already.



*American folk singer hopes peace concert for ISIS will win over terror group*

American folk singer hopes peace concert for ISIS will win over terror group | Fox News


----------



## Gunz (Jan 14, 2016)

Rapid said:


> *American folk singer hopes peace concert for ISIS will win over terror group*
> 
> American folk singer hopes peace concert for ISIS will win over terror group | Fox News


 

Trying to imagine what this idiot will look like when they saw his head off.


----------



## Grunt (Jan 14, 2016)

When I initially read the article and saw where he really thinks his idea could work...it was one of those rare moments where I had to fight back the urge to spew Diet. Dr. Pepper through my nose!!!

There are a lot of people out there that simply don't get it!

He's a top contender for membership in the top 100 of those people!


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 14, 2016)

If they whack his head off others may take note.


----------



## DocIllinois (Jan 14, 2016)

Agoge said:


> He's a top contender for membership in the top 100 of those people!



I would suggest Mr. Twyman make advance contact with the folks who keep track of unbridled witlessness, for posterity:

The Darwin Awards


----------



## Salt USMC (Jan 16, 2016)

Man, his heart's in the right place, but his brain sure isn't.


----------



## Totentanz (Jan 16, 2016)

Rapid said:


> *American folk singer hopes peace concert for ISIS will win over terror group*
> 
> American folk singer hopes peace concert for ISIS will win over terror group | Fox News


----------



## AWP (Jan 16, 2016)

Totentanz said:


> post


----------



## Totentanz (Jan 16, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> post


----------



## Kraut783 (Jan 16, 2016)

Nice


----------



## AWP (Jan 22, 2016)

No boots on the ground? Weren't we told that months ago?

Ash Carter says boots on the ground needed to defeat ISIS | Fox News



> “We’re looking for opportunities to do more and *there will be boots on the ground* and I want to be clear about that,” Carter told CNBC from the World Economic Forum in Davos, Switzerland.



Nicely done, Secretary Carter.


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 22, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> No boots on the ground? Weren't we told that months ago?
> 
> Ash Carter says boots on the ground needed to defeat ISIS | Fox News
> 
> ...


Sounds like they are prepping the media for an announcement.
Fuck Iraq.


----------



## DocIllinois (Jan 22, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> No boots on the ground? Weren't we told that months ago?
> 
> Ash Carter says boots on the ground needed to defeat ISIS | Fox News
> 
> Nicely done, Secretary Carter.



Nothing new to see here.  Minor policy adjustment.


----------



## Viper1 (Jan 23, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> No boots on the ground? Weren't we told that months ago?
> 
> Ash Carter says boots on the ground needed to defeat ISIS | Fox News
> 
> ...



How about a declaration of war first. That would help a lot of things.


----------



## AWP (Jan 23, 2016)

Viper1 said:


> How about a declaration of war first. That would help a lot of things.



Crazy talk!


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 23, 2016)

Viper1 said:


> How about a declaration of war first. That would help a lot of things.


I thought Congress gave him AUMF?


----------



## CDG (Jan 23, 2016)

Thought this was a good read on what the amount of boots on the ground would actually need to be and the political obsession with number caps.

10,000 Won't Do It: The Mathematics of an American Deployment to Fight ISIL


----------



## AWP (Jan 23, 2016)

CDG said:


> Thought this was a good read on what the amount of boots on the ground would actually need to be and the political obsession with number caps.
> 
> 10,000 Won't Do It: The Mathematics of an American Deployment to Fight ISIL



The invasion of Iraq was calculated to take 300,000+ troops and we used significantly less. We saw how the initial occupation worked out. Thanks, Rummy....


----------



## CDG (Jan 23, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> The invasion of Iraq was calculated to take 300,000+ troops and we used significantly less. We saw how the initial occupation worked out. Thanks, Rummy....



It's clearly our problem as we are not taking into account the thousands of troops we can replace with technology, thereby negating the need to worry about combat troops vs. enablers, or whatever rabble the peasants are rousing about this week. We're not smart enough to know what we need.


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 23, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> The invasion of Iraq was calculated to take 300,000+ troops and we used significantly less. We saw how the initial occupation worked out. Thanks, Rummy....


The same guy robbed Afghanistan to keep from activating Guard units, and we see how that turned out also.


----------



## Viper1 (Jan 23, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> I thought Congress gave him AUMF?



Nowhere near the same thing. AUMF doesn't solve problems with sequestration, the legal issues surrounding detainees, or ROE.  A declaration of war does.


----------



## Brill (Jan 23, 2016)




----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 24, 2016)

Bottom line that whole area needs to redraw their borders, we need to wackamole on ISIS when and where we can, and we really need to sell weapons to the Region...let them sort that shit out, and make some of our money back selling them our old stock pile.


----------



## Brill (Jan 24, 2016)

I found this while reading info elsewhere but believe it to be germane.

"If the Public Knew the Truth, Obama Would be Impeached"


----------



## Gunz (Jan 24, 2016)

Recipe For Quagmire:

1. Add a few advisors and air assets.
2. Add additional advisors and more air assets.
3. Add Special Forces.
4. Add more air assets.
5. Add a battalion of infantry to provide security for air assets.
6. Add a regiment of infantry to hunt down the people who are rocketing and mortaring your air assets on the ground.
7. Build an FOB for the infantry regiment.
8. Put in a Burger King.
9. Send in a division to protect the Burger King.


----------



## Brill (Jan 28, 2016)

Wow.  I thought the destruction in Bosnia was the worst but this is unbelievable.


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 28, 2016)

lindy said:


> Wow.  I thought the destruction in Bosnia was the worst but this is unbelievable.


Russians or ISIL?


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 31, 2016)

Who's the mystery man sniping ISIS top commanders?  Love to think it is one of ours, but would not be surprised if we learn later that the Russians are behind this...they've been awful quiet lately. 

Of course if it is the Russians we'll likely never know...otherwise, I'll read the book when it comes out.  

Mystery gunman 'assassinates three ISIS leaders in 10 days' in Libya


----------



## bcrimz47 (Jan 31, 2016)

Airs tonight at 10, looks interesting.


----------



## AWP (Jan 31, 2016)

Oh those crazy Russians taking line-steppin' to new levels.

Turkey says Russia violated airspace, summons ambassador - CNN.com



> _(CNN)_Turkey's Foreign Ministry summoned the Russian ambassador in Ankara to protest and condemn what it called a violation of airspace by a Russian warplane.
> 
> The Foreign Ministry said the Russian SU-34 fighter was warned by Turkish air radar units, in both English and Russian, before it crossed into Turkish airspace from Syria on Friday.


----------



## Brill (Feb 14, 2016)

Holy hell. Where is the leader of the free world (in Cali fundraising actually)?

Turkey and Saudi Arabia threaten to launch ground troops in Syria


----------



## AWP (Feb 14, 2016)

lindy said:


> Holy hell. Where is the leader of the free world (in Cali fundraising actually)?
> 
> Turkey and Saudi Arabia threaten to launch ground troops in Syria



If that happens Slim Pickens needs to go preflight his B-52.

--------

US urges Turkey to stop attacks on Kurdish allies | Fox News



> The U.S. government called Saturday on Turkey to stop shelling American-backed Kurdish fighters in northern Syria as the militants sought to seize new ground before a possible cease-fire, creating dangerous fissures between tenuous allies in the war against Islamic State extremists.



Here's our level of hypocrisy. Like I posted earlier, months ago we gave Turkey airspace and carte blanche to go bomb the Kurds. Curiously that coincided with the announcement we could base more aircraft at Incirlik and launch strikes from that base. Now we're saying Turkey needs to stop attacking the Kurds? WTF are we thinking....or are we thinking? Madness. "10 million" a day, our aircrews and "advisors" on the ground are legit risking their lives, and here's an example of our strategy or what passes for strategy these days?

Unreal.


----------



## Brill (Feb 14, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> "10 million" a day, our aircrews and "advisors" on the ground are legit risking their lives, and here's an example of our strategy or what passes for strategy these days?



Our dear leader has this under control.  You just don't understand how complex these international issues are.

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/02/14/world/europe/john-kerry-syria-cease-fire-warns-russia.html

Personally, this shit (ISIL ruling the "world") never would have started had Obama shitcanned Maliki back in 2010.  Yes, the Bush admin made a huge mistake disbanding the Iraqi security forces in 2003 but Obama's A-team dismissed the warnings about growing sectarian violence in Iraq (perhaps they thought it was due justice for Sunnis ruling Shiites) but either way, the "blame Bush" era is long over.

This is Obama's Iraq now.


----------



## AWP (Feb 14, 2016)

lindy said:


> Personally, this shit (ISIL ruling the "world") never would have started had Obama shitcanned Maliki back in 2010.  Yes, the Bush admin made a huge mistake disbanding the Iraqi security forces in 2003 but Obama's A-team dismissed the warnings about growing sectarian violence in Iraq (perhaps they thought it was due justice for Sunnis ruling Shiites) but either way, the "blame Bush" era is long over.
> 
> This is Obama's Iraq now.



This is worth about a thousand Likes/ Agrees.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 14, 2016)

Just one big gigantic clusterfuck and Kerry's in way over his head. There is no stopping this train. 

Something's got to give.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Feb 14, 2016)

lindy said:


> Holy hell. Where is the leader of the free world (in Cali fundraising actually)?
> 
> Turkey and Saudi Arabia threaten to launch ground troops in Syria



Excellent question! The answer is that we will not know until the Presidential elections, and the Electoral College results are in. Even then, the answer could still be on hold.


----------



## Jay (Feb 15, 2016)

CIA Director John Brennan on 60 Minutes

Gives me that warm and fuzzy(sarcasm)...


----------



## Florida173 (Feb 15, 2016)

> Scott Pelley: Is ISIS coming here?
> 
> John Brennan: I think ISIL does want to eventually find it's, it's mark here.



Really CBS?


----------



## AWP (Feb 15, 2016)

Merged


----------



## Brill (Feb 15, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Really CBS?



No shit. The "its" vs "it's" drives me nuts.

@x SF med , can I get a woot woot?


----------



## AWP (Feb 15, 2016)

lindy said:


> No shit. The "its" vs "it's" drives me nuts.



What difference does it make?


----------



## x SF med (Feb 15, 2016)

lindy said:


> No shit. The "its" vs "it's" drives me nuts.
> 
> @x SF med , can I get a woot woot?



Wut?  Wut?  I didn't do it , really Officer, It was that damn Aussie named CQB.



Freefalling said:


> What difference does it make?



3rd person neutral possessive case versus transitive verb contraction....   nothing to worry about, keep moving along.....


----------



## Etype (Feb 17, 2016)

I think the real ISIL/ISIS debate needs to be over this  nonsensical Da'esh word.

For the record, Iraqis pronounce is 'dash,' like '... -ing through the snow.' It's an acronym that means ISIL in Arabic.

It really bothers me because it reminds me of Obama's POK-e-ston. Yeah, because our president is British now.


----------



## Florida173 (Feb 17, 2016)

Etype said:


> I think the real ISIL/ISIS debate needs to be over this  nonsensical Da'esh word.
> 
> For the record, Iraqis pronounce is 'dash,' like '... -ing through the snow.' It's an acronym that means ISIL in Arabic.
> 
> It really bothers me because it reminds me of Obama's POK-e-ston. Yeah, because our president is British now.



Pretty much the entire community calls it ISIL. The only people being forced to refer to it as da'esh is SOCCENT, and that's only really because of the by, with, and through policy. Because poorly pronounced it sounds like an insult of crap under your shoe.

I've always had issues with the acronym too. Arabs don't typically use acronyms and as the IS operates in regions in North Africa, Indonesia, Afghanistan, etc... The ISIL, or even Da'esh, becomes a misnomer.


----------



## AWP (Feb 17, 2016)

Russians cluster bombing Aleppo.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 17, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Russians cluster bombing Aleppo.



Cluster, schmuster, these are merely Russia's state-of-the-art precision-guided munitions.

And they can't help it if a few Kurds or suicidally-prone Western-backed
militias get in the way...


----------



## TLDR20 (Feb 17, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Russians cluster bombing Aleppo.



Holy shit. That took it up to 11.


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 17, 2016)

Mmmmmmm. That warms my cold, black heart.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 17, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Russians cluster bombing Aleppo.


Meh, stay indoors on the upper floors.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 17, 2016)

Restrictive ROE ain't a part of that picture. The Russians have never grasped the concept of a "light footprint." In a kind of skewed way, their lack of concern for consequences is almost enviable...Judge advocate, what the hell is that?


----------



## Ranger Psych (Feb 17, 2016)

Wars would be over a hell of a lot quicker, and more cleanly, if we actually could go whole fucking hog.


----------



## AWP (Feb 17, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Restrictive ROE ain't a part of that picture. The Russians have never grasped the concept of a "light footprint." In a kind of skewed way, their lack of concern for consequences is almost enviable...Judge advocate, what the hell is that?



I had an officer who once worked in the AFCENT Strike Cell explain their process to me. Either the first second stop on the email chain went to the JAG and there were times where they didn't work in parallel with the other offices to generate the strike. The JAG and another office were the bottlenecks. He was pretty proud of their times, which I won't post here, but I was still "gobsmacked."


----------



## Ranger Psych (Feb 17, 2016)

I really have to ask: WHY.

The people on the ground need to know what is/isn't a "legal" target.
The people in the air, should be able to see otherwise, even if the people on the ground can't.

If you can't tell by either of those two people that it's a valid target, then don't drop, it's that easy. By the way, if something that otherwise wouldn't be a valid target (Hospital, Mosque, etc) is BEING USED AS A FIGHTING POSITION AND YOU ARE TAKING FIRE..... level the motherfucker, legally.

I would LOVE to have someone articulate why JAG is even in a kill chain at all, and then turn around and go "ok, so if they're in the kill chain, then the entire force doesn't need law of land warfare/geneva training, as you've got a check and balance higher than the individual soldier enforcing it. YAY LESS MANDITORY TRAINING"


----------



## Brill (Feb 18, 2016)

They should require JAGs filling that position to have a CAB/CAR and have been involved in direct close quarters combat.

I'm confident the bottleneck would be less "neck-like".


----------



## Gunz (Feb 18, 2016)

Ranger Psych said:


> ... By the way, if something that otherwise wouldn't be a valid target (Hospital, Mosque, etc) is BEING USED AS A FIGHTING POSITION AND YOU ARE TAKING FIRE..... level the motherfucker, legally...



There it is


----------



## Grunt (Feb 18, 2016)

lindy said:


> They should require JAGs filling that position to have a CAB/CAR and have been involved in direct close quarters combat.
> 
> I'm confident the bottleneck would be less "neck-like".



Yep...put a rifle in their hands. Make them ruck from city to city and let them get shot at. Then, as they are being put in the sites of someone's rifle, let them make split-second decisions that will be second-guessed by a fellow JAG officer the following day. Feed them some of their own medicine for a while.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 20, 2016)

Just gonna leave this here: America Is Now Fighting A Proxy War With Itself In Syria


----------



## Thearrowguy (Feb 23, 2016)

Etype said:


> I think the real ISIL/ISIS debate needs to be over this  nonsensical Da'esh word.
> 
> For the record, Iraqis pronounce is 'dash,' like '... -ing through the snow.' It's an acronym that means ISIL in Arabic.
> 
> It really bothers me because it reminds me of Obama's POK-e-ston. Yeah, because our president is British now.



I agree the way we pronounce Arabic words is kinda funny haboob. "Da'esh" is the MSA pronunciation because of the two vowels in the middle دإعش. while "Dash" is Iraqi because they emit the glottal stop on the letter.


----------



## Florida173 (Feb 23, 2016)

Thearrowguy said:


> I agree the way we pronounce Arabic words is kinda funny haboob. "Da'esh" is the MSA pronunciation because of the two vowels in the middle دإعش. while "Dash" is Iraqi because they emit the glottal stop on the letter.



You are thinking about it wrong.. there wouldn't be any acronyms in MSA. so you can pronounce how ever you want. DAESH.. so dumb american comes in and pronounces like dash and the iraqis think it sounds like the stuff under your shoe or whatever.. The only people pushing the name is SOCCENT because of "by, with, and through." I've literally heard one guy pronounce it three or four different ways during one VTC. I'll stick with the community standard and refer to them appropriately.


----------



## Etype (Feb 24, 2016)

Thearrowguy said:


> I agree the way we pronounce Arabic words is kinda funny haboob. "Da'esh" is the MSA pronunciation because of the two vowels in the middle دإعش. while "Dash" is Iraqi because they emit the glottal stop on the letter.


An 'ain' doesn't make a stop sound or an e sound, it's just a throaty sound. An 'alif' w/hamza below or a 'yea' does, but they don't matter here.

Worrying about an MSA pronunciation is about as valid as arguing an Oxford English pronunciation.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 24, 2016)

I pronounce it "shitheads."


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 24, 2016)

I'm still trying to figure out doodeckie and allateasik, as told to those goat fuckers.


----------



## Grunt (Feb 24, 2016)

I refer to them as the "enemy" or "targets."


----------



## Thearrowguy (Feb 24, 2016)

Etype said:


> An 'ain' doesn't make a stop sound or an e sound, it's just a throaty sound. An 'alif' w/hamza below or a 'yea' does, but they don't matter here.
> 
> Worrying about an MSA pronunciation is about as valid as arguing an Oxford English pronunciation.



Its just similar to pronouncing إعدام (execution). Usually when an aliph is followed by an ain it makes a subtle stop. Just an observation


----------



## Florida173 (Feb 24, 2016)

Thearrowguy said:


> Its just similar to pronouncing إعدام (execution). Usually when an aliph is followed by an ain it makes a subtle stop. Just an observation


 
Possibly, but only valid for Arabic words.. which we've explained Da'esh isn't.


----------



## Thearrowguy (Feb 24, 2016)

Its definitely not normal for use of acronyms in Arabic and it has some western influence.  Daesh seems to be used interchangeably with the Arabic translation for Islamic State "دولة الإسلامية" in media in the Middle East and ISIS/ISIL leaders are proficient in MSA use


----------



## Florida173 (Feb 24, 2016)

But then when you start referring to then in North Africa, Yemen, Afghanistan, Indonesia.... Do you create the appropriate acronym in Arabic and then anglacize it? Nope. Because acronyms don't work and the next one might not man something derogatory when mispronounced by us.


----------



## AWP (Feb 24, 2016)




----------



## Etype (Feb 24, 2016)

New pseudo-acronym, Islamic State, becomes IS, put it in Arabic, pronounce it in English like it's a word...

They are now known as Daaa.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Feb 25, 2016)

Etype said:


> New pseudo-acronym, Islamic State, becomes IS, put it in Arabic, pronounce it in English like it's a word...
> 
> They are now known as Daaa.


What about Baaa?


----------



## Brill (Feb 25, 2016)

R.Caerbannog said:


> What about Baaa?



Naaaaah.


----------



## AWP (Mar 14, 2016)

Fox and CNN are covering the same story: Putin orders a partial pull-out from Syria. I guess he's playing "just the tip" now?

Putin orders Russian troops to begin pulling out of Syria | Fox News


----------



## DA SWO (Mar 14, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Fox and CNN are covering the same story: Putin orders a partial pull-out from Syria. I guess he's playing "just the tip" now?
> 
> Putin orders Russian troops to begin pulling out of Syria | Fox News


Maybe he's gonna nuke 'em, or just carpet bomb the place.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 14, 2016)

Thought we had a Syria thread bit couldn't find it....anyway Putin orders withdraw of Russian forces from Syria.






Didn't see that happening so soon.


----------



## DA SWO (Mar 14, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Thought we had a Syria thread bit couldn't find it....anyway Putin orders withdraw of Russian forces from Syria.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Carpet bombing starts in 10 days, or having ops tested all his system he goes full-speed into the Ukraine.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 14, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Carpet bombing starts in 10 days, or having ops tested all his system he goes full-speed into the Ukraine.



Pretty good possibility, I really hope he takes a chill pill before we find ourselves smack dab in the middle of WW3....name that movie.lol


----------



## AWP (Mar 19, 2016)

Putin's gonna' be Putin and we're just along for the ride.

Russia begins withdrawal of forces from Syria



> Putin made it clear that Russia will maintain its airbase and a naval facility in Syria and keep some troops there.
> 
> Syria's state news agency also quoted Assad as saying that the Russian military will draw down its air force contingent but won't leave the country altogether.
> 
> "We have to remember this is not an end to the military presence. The fact the S-400 defence system is still on the ground means Russia is still the main external player in Syria," she said.



Has Putin pulled a bait’n’switch?



> Syrian observers have noticed a new, deadly shape appearing on the runways of Russia’s Syrian bases: Mi28 Havoc and KA-52 Alligator attack helicopters.
> 
> These potent and modern weapons are in many ways more threatening to Syria’s rebel forces than the fixed-wing attack aircraft they replace.


----------



## DA SWO (Mar 19, 2016)

He isn't letting assad down, which is more than our allies can say.


----------



## Brill (Mar 24, 2016)

Marines using arty for forcepro.

Marines expanding combat role in Iraq, US official says | Fox News


----------



## DA SWO (Mar 24, 2016)

lindy said:


> Marines using arty for forcepro.
> 
> Marines expanding combat role in Iraq, US official says | Fox News


Hopefully BeeHive.


----------



## Etype (Mar 25, 2016)

lindy said:


> Marines using arty for forcepro.
> 
> Marines expanding combat role in Iraq, US official says | Fox News


Seems to me like it was in support of Iraqi offensive operations...


----------



## Brill (Mar 25, 2016)

Etype said:


> Seems to me like it was in support of Iraqi offensive operations...



Oh definitely yet Pentagon maintains that we're not involved in combat ops there.


----------



## AWP (Mar 25, 2016)

No boots on the ground....like your doctor, keep your doctor....that red line not be crossed in Syria...

Brilliant sound bites.


----------



## Gunz (Mar 25, 2016)

lindy said:


> Oh definitely yet Pentagon maintains that we're not involved in combat ops there.



And this unit from 26th MEU has already suffered combat casualties from ISIL rockets. 

Take the gloves off. Send in the 2nd MarDiv. Kill them all.


----------



## Brill (Mar 25, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Take the gloves off. Send in the 2nd MarDiv. Kill them all.



I believe that was the warplan but higher ups decided against it after they received their sensitivity training.


----------



## Etype (Mar 25, 2016)

lindy said:


> Oh definitely yet Pentagon maintains that we're not involved in combat ops there.


The Air Force would strongly disagree with the Pentagon's stance.


----------



## AWP (Mar 25, 2016)

Speaking of no boots on the ground....

Top U.S. general: More American troops headed to Iraq - CNNPolitics.com



> Appearing at a briefing with Secretary of Defense Ash Carter, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs Gen. Joseph Dunford said, "The secretary and I both believe that there will be an increase to the U.S. forces in Iraq in the coming weeks."
> 
> A U.S. defense official told CNN earlier this week that the U.S. currently has between 4,500 and 5,000 troops in Iraq on a regular basis, about 1,000 over the stated limit of 3,800. This includes 200 Special Operations Forces whose presence is not publicly acknowledged, the official said.


----------



## Grunt (Mar 25, 2016)

I sure am glad that we are getting out of Iraq and Afstinkistan!

I guess a bunch of us didn't get the memo....


----------



## DA SWO (Mar 25, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Speaking of no boots on the ground....
> 
> Top U.S. general: More American troops headed to Iraq - CNNPolitics.com


They exceed the cap by claiming SOF and Aircrew are TDY and not stationed in Iraq, we did that in El Salvador during the 80's/90's.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 25, 2016)

Damn - if true as written, damn.

Russian soldier calls airstrikes on himself to wipe out ISIS fighters

_A Russian soldier has died a 'hero' after wiping out a band of ISIS fighters by calling in airstrikes on himself.

The special forces officer was on a one-man mission to track down ISIS militants in the area around Palmyra, when he found himself surrounded by enemy fighters.

Caught in a hopeless situation, he directed Russian aircraft to bomb his location, killing himself and the ISIS fighters that surrounded him. _


----------



## Gunz (Mar 25, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Damn - if true as written, damn.
> 
> Russian soldier calls airstrikes on himself to wipe out ISIS fighters
> 
> ...



A one man mission?


----------



## Mac_NZ (Mar 25, 2016)

Did you guys sell all your surplus 3 colour deserts to the Syrian Army or is Propper the new Ford?


----------



## Brill (Mar 26, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Damn - if true as written, damn.



Take it with a big block of salt.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 26, 2016)

ISIS has their own immigration issues. This is a pretty interesting read. Here's a quick snippet-

_In a scene that has become commonplace, a foreign Islamic State fighter angrily denounced an elderly Iraqi man for wearing his beard too short for a properly devout Muslim.

Instead of quietly enduring another routine indignity, the old man cursed his detractor, to the surprise of onlookers. But what followed was even more surprising: Six local Iraqi fighters for Islamic State intervened to take the old man’s side. The Iraqis beat their foreign comrade, handcuffed him and threw him into a car, then sped away._

Rift Grows in Islamic State Between Foreign, Local Fighters

ETA - 
You may not be able to open link if you do not have online subscription to WSJ.  I've copy/pasted and attached the article into a PDF for easier reading.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Mar 26, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> _ The Iraqis beat their foreign comrade, handcuffed him and threw him into a car, then sped away._..



For some reason...this just came to mind:






:-":blkeye:


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 26, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> ISIS has their own immigration issues. This is a pretty interesting read. Here's a quick snippet-
> 
> _In a scene that has become commonplace, a foreign Islamic State fighter angrily denounced an elderly Iraqi man for wearing his beard too short for a properly devout Muslim.
> 
> ...



Here, if you don't want to read the article...just watch this 2 minute documentary.  It pretty much sums everything up !


----------



## Brill (Mar 26, 2016)

Etype said:


> The Air Force would strongly disagree with the Pentagon's stance.



"Bomb doors, negative function...The teleflex drive cable must be sheared away."


----------



## Etype (Mar 26, 2016)

lindy said:


> "Bomb doors, negative function...The teleflex drive cable must be sheared away."


Didn't Darth Vader say that?


----------



## DocIllinois (Mar 26, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Here, if you don't want to read the article...just watch this 2 minute documentary.  It pretty much sums everything up !



Is this you telling us to always look on the bright side of life?  :-"


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 27, 2016)

ISIS has gone too far!!  

@Freefalling 



> ISIS’ Public Retaliations Officer and the organization’s Chief Torturer Abu-Hassan bin-harem announced that we may be facing a new tactic. “We have recently obtained a new type of weapon. Our “Long-Acoustic Range Device” (LARD) is capable of damage beyond anyone’s wildest imagination.” It has been confirmed that the head removing-militant group is referring to _Nickelback’s_ first single from their last album titled _Edge of a Revolution; _a song so awful that it is crippling, and at times even lethal.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 30, 2016)




----------



## Brill (Mar 31, 2016)

Yep, sounds legit!

Exclusive: 21 Generals Lead ISIS War the U.S. Denies Fighting


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 31, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Damn - if true as written, damn.
> 
> Russian soldier calls airstrikes on himself to wipe out ISIS fighters
> 
> ...




Update on this story...what a shitty situation.  But after seeing what ISIS does to those they capture, and in this case a Russian SF?  Those fucks would cum all over themselves as they tortured him. 

Soldier wiped out ISIS fighters by calling airstrikes on HIMSELF


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Mar 31, 2016)

Damn it! Rest In Gods Own Peace, Hero.

I pray the ISIS body count was very high.


----------



## DocIllinois (Mar 31, 2016)

The old North Vietnamese Army tactic of Grab Their Belts to Fight Them.

There are genuinely dangerous and courageous men who are fighting you, ISIS.   Keep underestimating.  


RIP, Soldier.  Thank you for your service.


----------



## Dame (Mar 31, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> ISIS has gone too far!!
> 
> @Freefalling



Luckily, I'm immune to such weapons.


----------



## Dame (Mar 31, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Update on this story...what a shitty situation.  But after seeing what ISIS does to those they capture, and in this case a Russian SF?  Those fucks would cum all over themselves as they tortured him.
> 
> Soldier wiped out ISIS fighters by calling airstrikes on HIMSELF



True warrior and hero.


----------



## Kraut783 (Mar 31, 2016)

Rest in Peace brother


----------



## Brill (Mar 31, 2016)

Unintentional fratricide folks.


----------



## DA SWO (Mar 31, 2016)

lindy said:


> Yep, sounds legit!
> 
> Exclusive: 21 Generals Lead ISIS War the U.S. Denies Fighting


Double counting a lot of the GO's.


----------



## AWP (Apr 1, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Double counting a lot of the GO's.



Including CENTCOM and the subordinate *CENT's is a bit disingenuous.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 3, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Update on this story...what a shitty situation.  But after seeing what ISIS does to those they capture, and in this case a Russian SF?  Those fucks would cum all over themselves as they tortured him.
> 
> Soldier wiped out ISIS fighters by calling airstrikes on HIMSELF


His entire body is made of diamonds.  Respe!  I wonder about us, and if we are truly committed to deal a true end to these people we say we are fighting, but it often appears that we are arming.  I understand the Russians don't care about civilian casualties, but that is war. War is the worst task, but the most primal task we have.  We need to be hardened, we need to sharpen our souls and our bodies like this man did.


----------



## Totentanz (Apr 3, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> We need to be hardened, we need to sharpen our souls and our bodies like this man did.


Might start with 9 year old girls who are willing to put in more work than most men...


----------



## Grunt (Apr 3, 2016)

This I will say about him...he was willing to walk the talk and not simply talk it!

There are still a few people walking this globe that are willing to do so.


----------



## Etype (Apr 4, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> I wonder about us, and if we are truly committed to deal a true end to these people we say we are fighting...


Do you have any scope of understand, whatsoever, as to who the Americans are who are over there fighting?

Doesn't seem like it from that comment.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 4, 2016)

Update on the Russian SF Soldier above - final transcript - 

Fuck.

Translated from Russian. Source: Alexander Prokhorenko. Russian Special Forces Commando hero. Last Words Transcript | The Offensive on #Palmyra - World in War

*The transcript:*

*Prokhorenko *: command I am compromised, I repeat I am compromised.

Command: Please say again and confirm.

*Prokhorenko *: They have spotted me, there are shooting everywhere, I am pinned, requesting immediate extraction.

Command: Extraction request acknowledged.

*Prokhorenko *: Please hurry I am low on ammo, they seem to [be]everywhere, I can’t hold them for too long please hurry.

Command: Confirmed, hold them off, continue returning fire, retreat to a safe position, air support is monitoring, state your coordinates

*Prokhorenko *: [gives coordinates which are blurred in the transcript] Command: [command repeats coordinates which are blurred.]Confirm

*Prokhorenko *: Confirmed, please hurry I am low on ammo, they are surrounding me, bastards!

Command: ETA on evacuation 12 minutes, return to the green line, I repeat return to the green line.

*Prokhorenko *: They are close, I am surrounded, this may be the end, tell my family I love them dearly.

Command: Return to the green line, continue returning fire, help is on the way, followed by air support.

*Prokhorenko *: Negative, I am surrounded, they are so many of these bastards!

Command: Extract ETA 10 minutes, return to the green line. *Prokhorenko *: I can’t they have surrounded me and are closing in, please hurry.

Command: return to the green line, I repeat return to the green line.

*Prokhorenko *: They are outside, conduct the airstrike now please hurry, this is the end, tell my family I love them and i died fighting for my motherland.

Command: Negative, return to the green line.

*Prokhorenko *: Unable command, I am surrounded, they are outside, I don’t want them to take me and parade me, conduct the airstrike, they will make a mockery of me and this uniform. I want to die with dignity and take all these bastards with me. please my last wish, conduct the airstrike, they will kill me either way.

Command: Please confirm your request.

*Prokhorenko *: They [are] outside, this is the end commander, thank you, tell my family and my country I love them. Tell them I was brave and I fought until I could no longer. Please take care of my family, avenge my death, good bye commander, tell my family I love them!

Command: [No response, orders the airstrike]


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Apr 4, 2016)

That is hard to read. They are the words of a soldier, and a hero. So much dust in here.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 4, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> That is hard to read. They are the words of a soldier, and a hero. So much dust in here.


Was just sitting here reading this again with my son, (who is 13 and wants to be a Marine). "It's more than a video game, Mike." He read it a couple of times and just said in a somewhat sad voice..."I gotta go to school dad". 

I think it shook him up a bit.


----------



## AWP (Apr 4, 2016)

I'll remain skeptical of anything released by the Russian gov't.


----------



## Florida173 (Apr 4, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I'll remain skeptical of anything released by the Russian gov't.



They are a propaganda machine and way fucking better at it than us. Especially when it comes to military heroism.

Just check out this video about the "Russian Invader"


----------



## Gunz (Apr 4, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I'll remain skeptical of anything released by the Russian gov't.



I am too, generally, although his purported last transmission reads like something you'd expect from a guy with his back at the wall...Which admittedly could be easily contrived by the crisis management hacks at the GRU or whatever...

...if it were, say, a Pat Tilman-type blue on blue...which, given the Russian's propensity for blowing the crap out of designated targets and their surrounding neighborhoods, is always a distinct possibility...


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Apr 4, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I'll remain skeptical of anything released by the Russian gov't.




Well....There is that point. I find it odd that a lone officer had the mission as described. How ever it worked out, there were some ISIS taken down too, and Russia has a modern day Hero of the Motherland.


----------



## CQB (Apr 5, 2016)

One paragraph I picked up in this weeks issue of Time in The Brief section (our flavour). You may have it where you are I'm sure. All the refugees heading to Europe has "flummoxed" Da'esh. Their response was to release a VDO saying for everyone to emigrate to the Islamic Disneyland, the happiest kingdom of them all. If this is correct it is revealing. The article goes on to say that they're quite vindicated by the rising electoral prospects of anti-Islamic parties in the EU as it will marginalize Muslims, their raison d'etre. These two bits of information don't add up, but I'm going with the first, as to dismiss the anti-immigration movement in the EU as Nazis does them a disservice, their argument is more fine grained than that. It may take a bit more time but Da'esh are getting towards their use by date. 

But then the question remains, 'what does peace look like?' Does Libya become the next crucible?


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 18, 2016)

200 troops and AH-64's, guess Korea will have to wait.

The U.S. has agreed to deploy more than 200 additional troops to Iraq and to send eight Apache helicopters for the first time into the fight against the Islamic State group in Iraq, the first major increase in U.S. forces in nearly a year, U.S. defense officials said Monday.
You can click the link for the rest.

US to send 200 more troops, Apache helicopters, to Iraq


----------



## AWP (Apr 25, 2016)

More of those boots on the ground that aren't boots on the ground.

Obama announces extra 250 spec ops troops to Syria - CNNPolitics.com



> _(CNN)_President Barack Obama announced Monday an additional 250 special operations forces will be sent to Syria in the coming weeks in a speech in Hannover, Germany, in an effort to stem the influence and spread of ISIS.



Clownshoes, yet people buy into the lies. I guess it doesn't make any difference.


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 25, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> More of those boots on the ground that aren't boots on the ground.
> 
> Obama announces extra 250 spec ops troops to Syria - CNNPolitics.com
> 
> ...


Local radio this morning specifically said we now have boots on the ground.
Piecemealing the deployments keeps it off the national RADAR, but is shitty strategy (see Vietnam).


----------



## Brill (Apr 25, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> More of those boots on the ground that aren't boots on the ground.
> 
> Obama announces extra 250 spec ops troops to Syria - CNNPolitics.com
> 
> ...



Why would they advertise deployment of SOF to a hostile country?  Were they invited by HN?

Syria is not a friendly ally and this ain't no JCET.


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 25, 2016)

lindy said:


> Why would they advertise deployment of SOF to a hostile country?  Were they invited by HN?
> 
> Syria is not a friendly ally and this ain't no JCET.


Why did Clinton rush the news that the Rangers/JSOC were going to Somalia?
Domestic consumption (aka politics), and BTW-POTUS gave a speech today chastising NATO for meager defense spending with this deployment thrown out for consumption (FWIW- I agree with POTUS on much of his speech today).
Politics


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 25, 2016)

LOL

Why did...

I'll add, Why did Obama specifically identify SEAL Team 6 as the group who took down Osama?


----------



## Grunt (Apr 25, 2016)

Never let *good press* go to waste!


----------



## Brill (Apr 25, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Why did Clinton rush the news that the Rangers/JSOC were going to Somalia?
> Domestic consumption (aka politics), and BTW-POTUS gave a speech today chastising NATO for meager defense spending with this deployment thrown out for consumption (FWIW- I agree with POTUS on much of his speech today).
> Politics



They were actually invited by the UN.  This is a sovereign nation that does not want US forces on their territory.


----------



## AWP (Apr 25, 2016)

This is seriously starting to sound like the background story for a new Call of Duty game.


----------



## Etype (Apr 27, 2016)

We are really going to enjoy the books 30 years from now.


----------



## CQB (Apr 27, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> This is seriously starting to sound like the background story for a new Call of Duty game.



Responsibility to Protect IV. Ghost Warriors of Dirka Dirka.


----------



## Salt USMC (Apr 27, 2016)

A short video of ISIS fighters fucking up badly.  Keep an eye out for the sweet weapons handling from Abu Hajaar.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 27, 2016)

"The bullet casings are hitting us!"
"God is great!"

LMFAO


----------



## Etype (Apr 27, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> A short video of ISIS fighters fucking up badly.  Keep an eye out for the sweet weapons handling from Abu Hajaar.


I'm sure this was captured by the Kurds and released by them. I see that the narrative is to pass them off as bumbling idiots- but that's simply not the case. The fact is, they are holding two countries at bay with no sign of relenting.

As an aside, I've seen similar weapon handling atrocities from young infantrymen under the pressure of combat- I wouldn't read into it too much.


----------



## Brill (Apr 27, 2016)

Etype said:


> As an aside, I've seen similar weapon handling atrocities from young infantrymen under the pressure of combat- I wouldn't read into it too much.



Micro aggression detected.

InfantryPERSON.


----------



## Brill (Apr 27, 2016)

There is ALWAYS an Abu Hajar in the truck.


----------



## Viper1 (Apr 27, 2016)

lindy said:


> There is ALWAYS an Abu Hajar in the truck.



I jut realized he's the ISIS version of Carl.  Someone needs to make a meme out of the "You roasted us too" comment.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 27, 2016)

Etype said:


> I'm sure this was captured by the Kurds and released by them. I see that the narrative is to pass them off as bumbling idiots- but that's simply not the case. The fact is, they are holding two countries at bay with no sign of relenting.
> 
> As an aside, I've seen similar weapon handling atrocities from young infantrymen under the pressure of combat- I wouldn't read into it too much.



I agree especially the first couple of times in a sustained fight. Funny how the atheist start to scream oh god please, and the tough guys won't get out from behind cover and return fire.


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 27, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> A short video of ISIS fighters fucking up badly.  Keep an eye out for the sweet weapons handling from Abu Hajaar.



You roasted us too was funny, but I had to notice the Kevlar helmets and the "armored vehicle" looked like a hummer.


----------



## poison (Apr 28, 2016)

What are you doing Abu Hajaar is my new go to statement.


----------



## RackMaster (Apr 29, 2016)

Our guys on the ground and the Boss assessing the ground.


----------



## Gunz (May 1, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> A short video of ISIS fighters fucking up badly.  Keep an eye out for the sweet weapons handling from Abu Hajaar.



Was that Daffy Duck putting his beak back on after the RPG backblast?


----------



## Etype (May 2, 2016)

Dumb reported says-





> ... when you hear them say that, people of YOUR rank...



Because a Kurdish General = a Canadian General.

I bet she says Pok-e-ston (Pakistan).


----------



## Marauder06 (May 2, 2016)

Etype said:


> ...
> 
> I bet she says Pok-e-ston (Pakistan).



That irks the crap out of me.  That, "ear-ok" for Iraq, "ear-on" for "Iran," and "GIROA" instead of just saying "Afghanistan."


----------



## AWP (May 2, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> "GIROA" instead of just saying "Afghanistan."



You misspelled "ISI."


----------



## Marauder06 (May 2, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> You misspelled "ISI."



I thought that was covered with "pok-e-ston."


----------



## Florida173 (May 2, 2016)

petty nonsense. I was told off once for pronouncing Damascus with both "a"s in agreement. Once you start learning other languages, and especially arabic and spanish, you start to completely unknowingly pronouncing words properly


----------



## racing_kitty (May 2, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> petty nonsense. I was told off once for pronouncing Damascus with both "a"s in agreement. Once you start learning other languages, and especially arabic and spanish, you start to completely unknowingly pronouncing words properly



And what fat, boorish, loudmouth American would want to do that?  C'mon...


----------



## Marauder06 (May 2, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> petty nonsense. I was told off once for pronouncing Damascus with both "a"s in agreement. Once you start learning other languages, and especially arabic and spanish, you start to completely unknowingly pronouncing words properly



Know your audience.  It comes across as pretentious to affect accents.


----------



## Florida173 (May 2, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Know your audience.  It comes across as pretentious to affect accents.



Sure.. still petty nonsense. Irk away


----------



## AWP (May 3, 2016)

1 SEAL killed in northern Iraq.

Blue skies.

US Navy SEAL killed by ISIS militants in northern Iraq | Fox News

An U.S. Navy SEAL was shot and killed Tuesday by "direct fire" from Islamic State militants who stormed through defenses set up by Kurdish Peshmerga troops in northern Iraq, the U.S.-led coalition and officials said.

The unnamed service member was advising Peshmerga forces in the region but was less than 2 miles behind the front lines, Pentagon Press Secretary Peter Cook said in a statement. A defense official told Fox News the service member was killed by small arms fire, likely from an AK-47 rifle.


----------



## Marine0311 (May 3, 2016)

Rest In Peace.


----------



## poison (May 3, 2016)

How long before isis takes advantage of the mayhem in the green zone?


----------



## Etype (May 3, 2016)

poison said:


> How long before isis takes advantage of the mayhem in the green zone?


There's mayhem in the green zone?


----------



## poison (May 3, 2016)

Baghdad Teetering on Edge as Iraq Plunges Into Political Chaos


----------



## Etype (May 3, 2016)

poison said:


> Baghdad Teetering on Edge as Iraq Plunges Into Political Chaos


Damn.

Hopefully they do start to really test the waters around Baghdad, that would force the militias into taking action.

I think the Iran backed militias are waiting for the gov't to buckle, you know, the whole power vacuum game.

------- ETA -------

Chew on this-
IS holds Tikrt and Mosul, Baghdad descends into chaos. The militias offer up a semblance of control, yet without Tikrit and Mosul there isn't enough oil wealth to support what remains of the country. The area from Baghdad East to Amariah and South to Basra now MUST become part of Iran, lest the inhabitants starve.


----------



## poison (May 3, 2016)

Saudi Arabia would lose their shit.


----------



## DA SWO (May 3, 2016)

Etype said:


> Damn.
> 
> Hopefully they do start to really test the waters around Baghdad, that would force the militias into taking action.
> 
> ...


Interesting, wonder if al-Malaki understands that he sold Iraq down the river?



poison said:


> Saudi Arabia would lose their shit.



LOL, yes they would.  Karma.


----------



## Etype (May 3, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Interesting, wonder if al-Malaki understands that he sold Iraq down the river?


I wonder if al Malaki gets a seat right next to al Sadr at the Ayatollah's dinner table.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 3, 2016)

I think @Etype is right on the money with his post. And as said at the beginning of this thread, I'm still shocked its taken this long. Been expecting this since they completely dismantled the old Iraqi government and captured Saddam in 2003. Al Sadar and his Militia said from the very beginning this was a civil war. Why we didn't kill him in Najaf in 2004 when we had him cornered is still mind boggling to me.


----------



## Etype (May 3, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Why we didn't kill him in Najaf in 2004 when we had him cornered is still mind boggling to me.


It could probably be traced back to the The New Deal, the League of Nations, or George Soros- like every problem.


----------



## DA SWO (May 3, 2016)

Etype said:


> I wonder if al Malaki gets a seat right next to al Sadr at the Ayatollah's dinner table.



Doubtful, he may think that's the deal, but I'd expect the Iranians to renege as quickly as they consolidate power.



Etype said:


> It could probably be traced back to the The New Deal, the League of Nations, or George Soros- like every problem.



Or the fact that neither Bush was good at Post-Conflict Operations.


----------



## Etype (May 3, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Or the fact that neither Bush was good at Post-Conflict Operations.


I often wonder how a post-war insurgency from Germany or Japan would have been handled by Truman.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 3, 2016)

Etype said:


> It could probably be traced back to the The New Deal, the League of Nations, or George Soros- like every problem.



I honestly believe the CoC thought if they brought him into the government they could manipulate him and the fighting between his group, the sunnis, and AQI, as we were a pin cushion for all sides. I think the only thing we've been doing is kicking that can down the road, kinda of like now. I would absolutely say lets fully arm the Kurds (giving Turkey a well deserved middle finger) and let the people finally have it out. Let Iran, Syria, Russia, Turkey, and the Kurds all bang it out and reestablish borders. We should supply the Kurds because we honestly owe them that, and honestly are the best group out of the bunch. But fuck it, let them burn that bitch down already. Its only been 90 years in the making.


----------



## Etype (May 3, 2016)

It really is too bad that the Kurds haven't reached an Israeli-like military competence.


----------



## poison (May 3, 2016)

If they had American support, they could.


----------



## Florida173 (May 3, 2016)

There's no love from the Iranians towards Sadr


----------



## Marauder06 (May 3, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> There's no love from the Iranians towards Sadr


That's interesting.  Everything I'd read before now indicated otherwise.  Iran sheltered him when he beat feet out of Iraq back in 2007, and some reports have his organization listed as one of Iran's "closest allies."  <--see p. ix.  Maybe they don't like him, but they're supporting the shit out of him.

...or are they?  This report cites "strains" in the relationship between Iran and Sadr, and a deliberate "splintering of his support base." 

As I said, very interesting.  Guess I'm going to go read some more now.


----------



## Gunz (May 3, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> There's no love from the Iranians towards Sadr



He's become a divider not a unifier. It's upsetting their plan for uniting Iraqi Shiites. On top of that, he's now a nationalist and a political reformer...:whatever:


----------



## Brill (May 3, 2016)

Somebody "got sent for".

Iraqi Shiite Cleric Moqtada al-Sadr Makes Unannounced Visit to Iran


----------



## Etype (May 3, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> There's no love from the Iranians towards Sadr


A lot must have changed very recently.


----------



## Florida173 (May 3, 2016)

Etype said:


> A lot must have changed very recently.



Not all that recently. Iran has way more control of Iraq without him. Him going to Iran will likely be an attempt to control him


----------



## Ooh-Rah (May 3, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> Our guys on the ground and the Boss assessing the ground.



"


Freefalling said:


> 1 SEAL killed in northern Iraq.
> 
> Blue skies.
> 
> ...




Hmmm...lucky?  Or perhaps the US isn't the only team in town "advising?"

PICTURED: Navy SEAL from Colorado killed in Iraq

_The Navy SEAL who was killed in a coordinated attack by 100 ISIS fighters in Iraq has been identified.

Charles Keating was advising Kurdish Peshmerga troops in the town of Telskof, 18 miles north of Mosul, when a group of Islamic State militants stormed enemy lines with vehicles, suicide car bombs and bulldozers on Tuesday

He was hit by 'direct fire' during an attack by the jihadis *Pentagon officials have described as 'coordinated and complex*_


----------



## poison (May 4, 2016)

PressTV-Iraq’s Sadr has made no visit to Iran

Lol.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 4, 2016)

Etype said:


> It really is too bad that the Kurds haven't reached an Israeli-like military competence.



Israel only reached that competence because we (along with a few others) supported them, equipped them and insured the weapons and munitions would flow. The Kurds could do it, it will take them several years to become professionalized, but I grantee if we gave them the weapons, munitions and training, they kick just about everyone's ass on the ground in the region. Just think if they had an Air force, with a professional ground force, in 10 years Kurdistan could be the stability that region truly needs. Of course they are going to kick the shit out of a few people along the way, but honestly feel with the way they have been treated, they should absolutely be allowed to.


----------



## poison (May 4, 2016)

Well now, not ONLY because of US support, which only really started 30 years after Israel was created. It's primarily due to need and desire, and then the help of others. The Kurds have the need and desire, too, but lack the help, because even those who like them are too busy kissing Turkish ass (among other fuckery). Hell, even Israel, which has been helping the kurds for years, won't step up in a bigger manner because of Turkey.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 4, 2016)

We've given Israel weapons and munitions from the very beginning, but our help was very limited in the 40's-50's. In the later 50's we significantly built up their military capabilities.

Turkey is the key, along with Baghdad, Iran and Syria. They've all dumped on the Kurds, and everyone knows what will happen as soon as the Kurds have the capability. That whole region is literally a minefield of stupid, and the only common factor is that the Kurds are pro western society and not a bunch of loons.


----------



## Single Malt (May 4, 2016)

@Diamondback 2/2 and @poison , I couldn't agree more. The Kurds do deserve our help, and they do need it if they are to one day declare independence of Kurdistan. Once they do declare independence, they will need years of sustained support to get going and become self-sufficient. They have shed a lot blood in that region for years, but they are hesitant to do anything without the full support of US because they don't want a repeat of Republic of Mahabad, even though that was some Soviet Union fuckery that we didn't have anything to do with, but a wound is wound.


----------



## Etype (May 4, 2016)

The problem with the Iraqi Army and the Peshmerga, is they were never taught how to wage war and they fail to learn on their own.

All we ever taught either to do was to police neighborhoods, how to be SWAT cops, and how to hide in their castles (FOBs, COPs).

Castles fell out of favor with the invention of the cannon, and since all humans are born with legs (which we also use to drive cars), trenches and other obstacles only slow us down.

In a maneuver war, the static defender almost always loses. Napoleon knew this, and the Nazis really capitalized on this with blitzkrieg tactics. In fact, it wasn't until the Nazis started to defend oil fields in southern Russia that they started to suffer defeats and the hands of the Russians, and we all know how Fortress Europe turned out.

Speaking of blitzkrieg tactics- there are a lot of ADA pieces sitting around places like BIAP, which thanks to their lack of proper training and inability to learn, are not being used by the Iraqi Army.  IS smartly demonstrates the proper use of ADA and artillery as "assault guns" just like the Nazis did.


----------



## Etype (May 4, 2016)

Single Malt said:


> ... if they are to one day declare independence of Kurdistan.


I don't work for the State Department so I'm not completely up to date, but i dont think this in line with US foreign policy.

Even if it were, I don't see it working.  They are landlocked, even if they had Mosul or Kirkuk, who would export their oil at a reasonable rate if at all?


----------



## Single Malt (May 4, 2016)

Etype said:


> I don't work for the State Department so I'm not completely up to date, but i don't think this in line with US foreign policy


My limited understanding agrees with your statement, I think this has been the DoS policy since we entered back in 2003. I remember Secretary Rice being very stern about Kurdistan staying under the Iraqi flag post Saddam. 



Etype said:


> Even if it were, I don't see it working. They are landlocked, even if they had Mosul or Kirkuk, who would export their oil at a reasonable rate if at all?


Kurds believe that Kirkuk is theirs, which helps them with its oil supplies for sure. But yes, I don't think relying on their limited oil supply in the northern part of Iraq is going to give them enough of a budget to run a country. As far as exporting goes, they will have major issues with the bordering states (Turkey being the only one that would buy any oil, but oil and water don't mix), then again, the Kurds want parts of Iran, Turkey, and Syria as well. They certainly need access to open waters for exporting and that is no easy task, Syria and Turkey won't easily give up any piece of the Mediterranean Sea shoreline.


----------



## Florida173 (May 4, 2016)

Etype said:


> It really is too bad that the Kurds haven't reached an Israeli-like military competence.



Too many competing interests within the Kurds. They'll accomplish nothing without western support.


----------



## Etype (May 4, 2016)

Single Malt said:


> Kurds believe that Kirkuk is theirs... Kurds want parts of Iran, Turkey, and Syria as well.


Kurds believe most of the middle East is theirs, I think their claims are irrelevant as various groups have controlled the area at different times. There were times were the Turks (Ottomans) held control, and times when the Persians controlled it.

Salah al-Din is said to have been a Kurd, since he was ruler of Abbasid Caliphate, those borders would also give the Kurds Israel and North Africa.


----------



## Etype (May 4, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Too many competing interests within the Kurds. They'll accomplish nothing without western support.


I wouldn't really want the Kurds to win, just to be powerful enough to give IS, Turkey, and Iran the run-around.


----------



## Florida173 (May 4, 2016)

Etype said:


> The problem with the Iraqi Army and the Peshmerga, is they were never taught how to wage war and they fail to learn on their own.



True that they fail to learn on their own, but completely untrue that we haven't taught them how to wage war. We are even currently doing it with various programs. The problem is culture.


----------



## Florida173 (May 4, 2016)

Etype said:


> I wouldn't really want the Kurds to win, just to be powerful enough to give IS, Turkey, and Iran the run-around.



They are and mostly have always been an Iranian proxy, so I see them giving problems to Iran. There's only a small portion of them that have ever been against the Iranians, and I think they are all but mitigated at this point.


----------



## Single Malt (May 4, 2016)

Etype said:


> Kurds believe most of the middle East is theirs, I think their claims are irrelevant as various groups have controlled the area at different times. There were times were the Turks (Ottomans) held control, and times when the Persians controlled it.
> 
> Salah al-Din is said to have been a Kurd, since he was ruler of Abbasid Caliphate, those borders would also give the Kurds Israel and North Africa.


Yes, but their claim to those parts is based on the population that's living there at the moment. The majority of West Azerbaijan providence and Kurdistan providence in Iran are Kurdish. Same is true for southern Turkey and norther Syria; they have had northern Iraq since the 1980 war. It would be fair (used loosely) to support their claim to those parts as none of Syria, Turkey, and Iran are friends of ours. Turkey is a wolf in sheep's clothing. At least we can count on Kurdistan as a true ally with a great strategic position then.


----------



## Single Malt (May 4, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> There's only a small portion of them that have ever been against the Iranians, and I think they are all but mitigated at this point.


What makes you say this? Given that both Talabani and Barzani are state enemies of Iran and both their families were forced out of Iran, this comes as a bit of news to me.


----------



## Florida173 (May 4, 2016)

Single Malt said:


> Yes, but their claim to those parts is based on the population that's living there at the moment. The majority of West Azerbaijan providence and Kurdistan providence in Iran are Kurdish. Same is true for southern Turkey and norther Syria; they have had northern Iraq since the 1980 war. It would be fair (used loosely) to support their claim to those parts as none of Syria, Turkey, and Iran are friends of ours. Turkey is a wolf in sheep's clothing. At least we can count on Kurdistan as a true ally with a great strategic position then.



The 1980 war where we were supporting Iraq against the Iranians and Kurds?


----------



## Single Malt (May 4, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> The problem is culture.


could you elaborate a bit? There are multiple political groups active within the Iraqi Kurdistan that are struggling for some sort of control, is this what you are referring to?


----------



## Single Malt (May 4, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> The 1980 war where we were supporting Iraq against the Iranians and Kurds?


Yes, that is the war. There were some Kurds who were helping Iraq too, but many of the pro-Iran Kurds escaped and turned against Iran at the end of the war and settled in the northern part of Iraq.


----------



## Florida173 (May 4, 2016)

Single Malt said:


> What makes you say this? Given that both Talabani and Barzani are state enemies of Iran and both their families were forced out of Iran, this comes as a bit of news to me.



What? the KDP and PUK were both Iranian proxies during the first Gulf war


----------



## Single Malt (May 4, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> What? the KDP and PUK were both Iranian proxies during the first Gulf war


Yes, but times have changed just as we were allies with Saddam during that war. The Ahmadinejad regime changed that relationship, which was weakening in the 1990's. PAK is one of Kurdish groups that has been against the Iranian regime for years, they are active in Iran even though a lot of their forces are fighting ISIS right now. To Dismiss all Kurds as Iranian proxies is not wise, at times of war, people do befriend enemies.


----------



## Florida173 (May 4, 2016)

Single Malt said:


> Yes, but times have changed just as we were allies with Saddam during that war. The Ahmadinejad regime changed that relationship, which was weakening in the 1990's. PAK is one of Kurdish groups that has been against the Iranian regime for years, they are active in Iran even though a lot of their forces are fighting ISIS right now. To Dismiss all Kurds as Iranian proxies is not wise, at times of war, people do befriend enemies.



Absolutely and I did mistakenly give the impression that that was my intent. I dismiss the Kurds as a whole because it has never accomplished anything. I will submit that it is a proud and capable people when propped up by western interests, but take away our support and they are nothing more than another Assyrian like population.

And the 12 people running around Iran right now under a PAK banner are insignificant. Any real Kurd has already left to fight in Iraq and Syria.


----------



## Etype (May 4, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> True that they fail to learn on their own, but completely untrue that we haven't taught them how to wage war. We are even currently doing it with various programs. The problem is culture.


Completely true, sorry.

The programs are a known entity, they are on the news everyday- and they aren't really working. I was there in '14 and again in '15 doing them.


----------



## Single Malt (May 4, 2016)

Iran is pretty good at shutting down any Kurdish resistance within its borders so there really isn't many Kurds fighting there, but there is good trail of blood going years back, most are Sorani Kurds. But yes I do agree that without western or Soviet Union's support, they haven't accomplished anything. PAK does have a very real front against ISIS at the moment, they have been in the news multiple times recently. I think there is some hope in PAK, corruption runs deep with Barzanis.


----------



## Brill (May 4, 2016)

Etype said:


> Completely true, sorry.
> 
> I was there in '14 and again in '15 doing them.



The Qurds?:-"


----------



## Etype (May 4, 2016)

Qurd? Like monkey in Arabic?


----------



## Brill (May 4, 2016)

Etype said:


> Qurd? Like monkey in Arabic?



Also means "wolf" in Azeri!

Just goofing on ya for your ref to being there and "doing them".


----------



## CQB (May 4, 2016)

Al Sadrs' message is reform or die, (sounds familiar?) but in this case he may have a point as the article doesn't mention the government corruption strangling service delivery etc., which is the basis of the protests.


----------



## poison (May 6, 2016)

Reuters: Security forces shut down Baghdad to prevent Green Zone protests. Security forces shut down Baghdad to prevent Green Zone protests


----------



## AWP (May 7, 2016)

"Kurdistan".....I have a better chance of a foursome with "the Kate's" (Beckinisale, Blanchett, and Winslet) than the Kurds do seeing their own country. No nation will stand for that and as pointed out, they have no port and will become some country's trade bitch as a result. "Kurdistan" falls into the same category as alternate history and "what if" scenarios. Pride? Yawn. History with "Saladin?" Yawn. (He wasn't all that anyway). Whatever else? Yawn. Kurdistan's a myth.


----------



## Salt USMC (May 10, 2016)

Glad to see that Abu Hajaar's legacy lives on!


----------



## Etype (May 10, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Glad to see that Abu Hajaar's legacy lives on!


The IS solidarity movement.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 11, 2016)

Found this video f'ing around Youtube today.  It was just posted a few days ago and certainly goes a long way towards offering a different perception of the Iraqi Army and their battle with ISIS.

The fucked up part is though...a few neighbors don't like you?  Label you a collaborator?  You my friend, are dog food.

Major Salam appears to be one locked on soldier...would have to imagine there are many folks who would like to get their paws on him -

*Fighting the Islamic State with Iraq’s Golden Division: The Road to Fallujah*


----------



## Etype (Jun 12, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Found this video f'ing around Youtube today.  It was just posted a few days ago and certainly goes a long way towards offering a different perception of the Iraqi Army and their battle with ISIS.
> 
> The fucked up part is though...a few neighbors don't like you?  Label you a collaborator?  You my friend, are dog food.
> 
> ...


I'd say he's closer to the rule than the exception. 

As for your neighbors throwing you under the bus- tribal solutions for tribal problems.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jun 17, 2016)

These guys need to be let go...wtf is going on in Foggy Bottom: U.S. State Department Officials Call for Strikes Against Syria’s Assad


----------



## Brill (Jun 17, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> These guys need to be let go...wtf is going on in Foggy Bottom: U.S. State Department Officials Call for Strikes Against Syria’s Assad



Who doesn't want a good old fashioned war with Russia?


----------



## Etype (Jun 17, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> These guys need to be let go...wtf is going on in Foggy Bottom: U.S. State Department Officials Call for Strikes Against Syria’s Assad


When your enemies are fighting each other, you should probably just step back and watch.


----------



## Brill (Jun 17, 2016)

Etype said:


> When your enemies are fighting each other, you should probably just step back and watch.



Fuck that! Sell them bullets and band-aids.

That Team party isn't going to pay for itself!


----------



## Etype (Jun 17, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> These guys need to be let go...wtf is going on in Foggy Bottom: U.S. State Department Officials Call for Strikes Against Syria’s Assad


Fox News just cited Syria's use of, "devastating barrel bombs against his own people," as one of the main reasons for the turmoil.

Of course, because some improvised POS Molotov cocktail in an oil drum is the most dangerous thing on the battlefield now.


----------



## AWP (Jun 17, 2016)

Etype said:


> Fox News just cited Syria's use of, "devastating barrel bombs against his own people," as one of the main reasons for the turmoil.
> 
> Of course, because some improvised POS Molotov cocktail in an oil drum is the most dangerous thing on the battlefield now.



Solid reporting to ignore the Russians' use of them and other weapons on civilians.


----------



## Etype (Jun 17, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Solid reporting to ignore the Russians' use of them and other weapons on civilians.


They're not worried about Russia's use of REAL munitions.

I'd much rather have someone try to drop a fuel drum on me than a real bomb.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 19, 2016)

Etype said:


> They're not worried about Russia's use of REAL munitions.
> 
> I'd much rather have someone try to drop a fuel drum on me than a real bomb.



Yeah especially some of that 2000 pound hate dropped from a fighter...


----------



## Il Duce (Jun 20, 2016)

Thought this was a really fascinating article: Syria’s War on Doctors

A few things that stuck out to me:

1. Has the emergence of transnational actors essentially given cover to nation-states to pursue an explicitly anti-Geneva convention ROE?  I mean, it looks like the Syrian government is not just violating the Laws of War but actively pursuing the violations towards strategic ends.  ISIS, the Taliban, AQIS, et. al have pursued the same strategy piecemeal but the Syrian government seems to be scaling it much higher.  The benefits of the strategy massively reduce independent media, NGOs, and plummet civilian quality of life to the stone age.  Puts an interesting spin on 'hearts and minds' - instead of winning them you make people so miserable they'll accept any step up.

2. Could we be seeing a huge leap forward in virtual medical technology due to the necessity here?  A lot of restrictions on testing this methodology in the developed world are being tossed aside - and rightly so in the circumstances.  I hope the knowledge is being captured somehow.  The leaps forward in trauma medicine from war zones is one of the few positives of combat - would hate to see it lost here.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 21, 2016)

Making the population lose the will to fight is the only way to win an insurgency.  Or any war for that matter.

There are hundreds of thousands of people getting killed or wounded in Syria.  I wonder if there is deliberate targeting of medical personnel, or if the Assad regime just doesn't care as much about ROE and collateral damage.

Also, with Islamic militants' willingness to use "protected places" like hospitals and other medical facilities to plan, store munitions, and launch attacks from, I wonder if that TTP is putting medical professionals at risk as well.


----------



## Florida173 (Jun 21, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> I wonder if there is deliberate targeting of medical personnel, or if the Assad regime just doesn't care as much about ROE and collateral damage.



If he's anything like his father than probably not, but I think there is too much media to wipe out entire populations. Even if it was more or less considered for the best. I believe in the previous case it was a MB stronghold.


----------



## Il Duce (Jun 21, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Making the population lose the will to fight is the only way to win an insurgency.  Or any war for that matter.
> 
> There are hundreds of thousands of people getting killed or wounded in Syria.  I wonder if there is deliberate targeting of medical personnel, or if the Assad regime just doesn't care as much about ROE and collateral damage.
> 
> Also, with Islamic militants' willingness to use "protected places" like hospitals and other medical facilities to plan, store munitions, and launch attacks from, I wonder if that TTP is putting medical professionals at risk as well.



From this article and what I've read/heard elsewhere (Fresh Air had a great interview with a couple of journalists out of Lebanon on the topic a couple weeks ago) the Assad regime is intentionally and systematically targeting medical professionals, first responders, hospitals, and utilities for this purpose.  I think it's something other countries will be watching closely as a way to suppress insurgencies.  The brutality and targeting of non-combatants is well-publicized by ISIS and others but it seems to me a state actor has the ability to scale these kinds of atrocities to the routine in a way non-state actors don't.  Interesting and disturbing.


----------



## Gunz (Jun 25, 2016)

Targeting the medical personnel and facilities of your enemy may be effective terror tactics in the short-term; but in the long run it will only give your enemy more incentive to hate and resist you.

We've learned through the bombings of civilian population centers like Berlin, Tokyo, London, Hanoi, that despite material destruction it cements unity and national will and increases defiance.


----------



## Etype (Jun 25, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> We've learned through the bombings of civilian population centers like Berlin, Tokyo...


But we won those, decisively.


----------



## RTBro (Jun 25, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> The fucked up part is though...a few neighbors don't like you?  Label you a collaborator?  You my friend, are dog food.



If you owe somebody money, you're debt free as soon as you can call him a collaborator.


----------



## Etype (Jun 26, 2016)

RTBro said:


> If you owe somebody money, you're debt free as soon as you can call him a collaborator.


I'd like to label some neighbors' dogs as collaborators.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jun 30, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Targeting the medical personnel and facilities of your enemy may be effective terror tactics in the short-term; but in the long run it will only give your enemy more incentive to hate and resist you.
> 
> We've learned through the bombings of civilian population centers like Berlin, Tokyo, London, Hanoi, that despite material destruction it cements unity and national will and increases defiance.


I don't know...Japan and Germany effectively were pretty dang peaceful in comparison to Iraq post-hostilities.  And then Afghanistan the war basically has not ended.  I don't truly know what it will take, but based on those conflicts, for a country to actually be rebuilt it takes a significant portion of the population dying during the war and then a significant occupation force.  

It was an acceptable strategy then.  It did work then, not sure where that puts us today though.


----------



## Phoenix15 (Jul 1, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> I don't know...Japan and Germany effectively were pretty dang peaceful in comparison to Iraq post-hostilities.  And then Afghanistan the war basically has not ended.  I don't truly know what it will take, but based on those conflicts, for a country to actually be rebuilt it takes a significant portion of the population dying during the war and then a significant occupation force.
> 
> It was an acceptable strategy then.  It did work then, not sure where that puts us today though.



WWII and Afghan/Iraq are difficult to compare. The everyday Japanese and German citizen was affected by their countries war effort long before the occupying force came to overrun them. They knew what their country was putting out. 

The sheer difference in scale of war effort doesn't lead Afghans and Iraqi's to feel remorse for their country/countrymen's efforts. They may not even be aware of what the village down the road is up to. The large percentage of the population that isn't involved in war efforts then feels confusion and frustration towards the occupying force, thus driving them towards insurgent attitudes.


----------



## AWP (Jul 1, 2016)

Are we actually trying to compare a total war with unconditional surrender and the the losing countries' utter destruction to Iraq and Afghanistan?


----------



## Etype (Jul 3, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> I don't know...Japan and Germany effectively were pretty dang peaceful in comparison to Iraq post-hostilities.  And then Afghanistan the war basically has not ended.  I don't truly know what it will take, but based on those conflicts, for a country to actually be rebuilt it takes a significant portion of the population dying during the war and then a significant occupation force.
> 
> It was an acceptable strategy then.  It did work then, not sure where that puts us today though.


Japan and Germany were countries with a sense of identity and unity. Afghanistan and Iraq are just areas on the map with lines drawn around them.

There's both a German and Japanese language and ethnicity, that doesn't exist in Iraq or Afghanistan.


----------



## Florida173 (Jul 3, 2016)

Etype said:


> Japan and Germany were countries with a sense of identity and unity. Afghanistan and Iraq are just areas on the map with lines drawn around them.
> 
> There's both a German and Japanese language and ethnicity, that doesn't exist in Iraq or Afghanistan.



I'd agree with Afghanistan, but I think it might be a bit more complicated with Iraq. There had been a push against Pan Arabism and Iraqi national identity for most of the 20th century. You would have to suggest the same for Egypt and the like. All of which have a unique language and differences in culture.


----------



## Salt USMC (Jul 5, 2016)

ISIS hit three different sites in the kingdom of Saud today.  As far as I can recall, this is the first time that ISIS has done anything significant in SA.  Interestingly, one of the attacks was near the Prophet's Mosque (Al Masjid an-Nabwi)

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/05/world/middleeast/saudi-arabia-us-consulate-kuwait.html


----------



## Etype (Jul 5, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Interestingly, one of the attacks was near the Prophet's Mosque (Al Masjid an-Nabwi)


A quick Google search indicates that this is an Orthodox Sunni mosque, very interesting.

I had originally wondered if it were a Shia mosque, but that's not the case.

ETA- I'm really interested to hear their IO spin on this one. If Saudi Arabia started to really hunt down financiers in their country and maybe even do some bombing in Western Iraq, that could be a pretty heavy blow to IS.


----------



## AWP (Jul 5, 2016)

Etype said:


> If Saudi Arabia started to really hunt down financiers in their country



They'll do that the same week Iraq and Turkey agree to form an independent Kurdistan.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 5, 2016)

The Kingdom has always seen what it wishes to see when it comes to Jihadists. They have to protect their Royal butts.


----------



## AWP (Jul 12, 2016)

Another 560 of those boots not on the ground are taking plane trips soon.

Ash Carter: U.S. sending more troops to Iraq - CNNPolitics.com



> (CNN) — Secretary of Defense Ash Carter, who arrived in Baghdad Monday, announced the U.S. is sending 560 additional troops to Iraq as part of the stepped-up fight against the "cancer" of ISIS.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 12, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Another 560 of those boots not on the ground are taking plane trips soon.
> 
> Ash Carter: U.S. sending more troops to Iraq - CNNPolitics.com


Airfield ops?
AF? Avn Bn?

Funny how we have no breakdown on force disposition, which services are on the ground etc.
Obama's 2nd stealth war and the media doesn't care?


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 12, 2016)

Every time I see an article referencing John Cantlie I pause for a moment - what they must be doing to that poor bastard to get him to do these "news reports".

ISIS hostage John Cantlie appears in chilling new propaganda video


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 12, 2016)

Damn that dude is still alive?  :-/


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 12, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Damn that dude is still alive?  :-/



Watching the last tape, I'd say "barely"


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 13, 2016)

.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 13, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> .



Stop stealing my material!


----------



## Etype (Jul 16, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Airfield ops?
> AF? Avn Bn?
> 
> Funny how we have no breakdown on force disposition, which services are on the ground etc.
> Obama's 2nd stealth war and the media doesn't care?


Which one are we counting as the first stealth war?


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Jul 16, 2016)

I just noticed this....:wall:







F you iss-elll, we were in the middle of Corn Hole....:-"


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 16, 2016)

Etype said:


> Which one are we counting as the first stealth war?


Libya.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 19, 2016)

https://m.facebook.com/Peshmerganor/

Anyone seen this guy's Facebook page?


----------



## RackMaster (Jul 19, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> https://m.facebook.com/Peshmerganor/
> 
> Anyone seen this guy's Facebook page?



Yes it's one of the few good sources coming out of there.


----------



## Florida173 (Jul 21, 2016)

مقاتل أمريكي في صفوف ‹YPG› يفقد حياته بمعارك منبج - آرانيوز
Article says a US fighter died in Manbij working with the YPG.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 21, 2016)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> I just noticed this....:wall:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Either that or mumbly peg between fire missions.


----------



## Il Duce (Aug 3, 2016)

Thought this was fascinating from an intelligence perspective.  Also, some interesting insights into the propaganda, force protection, OPSEC, and light infantry/reconnaissance training in the Islamic State.

How a Secretive Branch of ISIS Built a Global Network of Killers


----------



## Salt USMC (Aug 3, 2016)

Il Duce said:


> Thought this was fascinating from an intelligence perspective.  Also, some interesting insights into the propaganda, force protection, OPSEC, and light infantry/reconnaissance training in the Islamic State.
> 
> How a Secretive Branch of ISIS Built a Global Network of Killers


Have you read the piece of ISIS' intelligence apparatus that Der Spiegel put out last year?  It's long, but absolutely fascinating: The Terror Strategist: Secret Files Reveal the Structure of Islamic State - SPIEGEL ONLINE


----------



## Il Duce (Aug 3, 2016)

Yes, I thought it was really fascinating as well.  To me, the Bakr manifesto is like the Islamist version of Mao's Guerilla handbook.  Very interesting to see the confluence of global, tech-savvy, Jihadism meet the practical internal security/repression skills of the Saddam dictatorship.  Match that with the hard-won experience of fighting a technically advanced enemy in the US, along with an inept partner in the Iraq security forces, and you've got the mix for a very powerful insurgent force with more significant staying power than we normally see out of revolutionary regimes.


----------



## The Hate Ape (Aug 3, 2016)

They're really not that fascinating, more like a bunch of sissy ass early twenties dipshits that tweet a lot...


----------



## Il Duce (Aug 3, 2016)

The Hate Ape said:


> They're really not that fascinating, more like a bunch of sissy ass early twenties dipshits that tweet a lot...



There's a method to their dipshitery and it's pretty effective within the confines of their goals.  One of the most significant mistakes I see time and time again is when we dismiss and/or fail to understand our adversaries.


----------



## The Hate Ape (Aug 3, 2016)

Intel always makes a big deal out of these guys, or any VEO really (especially Islamic).

I'm not afraid of the boogeyman. If he exists, he's an idiot for waiting under the bed - not sophisticated.


----------



## Brill (Aug 3, 2016)

The Hate Ape said:


> Intel always makes a big deal out of these guys, or any VEO really (especially Islamic).
> 
> I'm not afraid of the boogeyman. If he exists, he's an idiot for waiting under the bed - not sophisticated.



I'd say Operations does (make a big deal) because, other than "close with and destroy", we don't have a doctrine to defeat hajji with an AK and belief that death brings paradise.

We (2) report, they (3) decide.


----------



## Dienekes (Aug 4, 2016)

The Hate Ape said:


> They're really not that fascinating, more like a bunch of sissy ass early twenties dipshits that tweet a lot...



Kinda like Trump minus the 20's part, and we see how effective his propaganda machine is even in a country as "intellectual and informed" as the US. I would assume that a lot of the young people they reach with their message are similar to Trump's typical crowd of younger voters that are 1. Tired of what they deem the bullshit going on in their region and 2. Fairly nationalistic with respect to Islam and the region.


----------



## The Hate Ape (Aug 4, 2016)

Just because an entity has the ability to recruit, does not make them sophisticated or any more fascinating. The pool is a bunch of half retarded, western-phobic, dipshits who have an identity crises and seek a sense of belonging to something less shitty than their lives currently are.

ISIS is not a formidable foe. They are neither impressive, intelligent, or fascinating. They are only performing at the rate one could expect maybe a small-town community to live up to following an apocalypse or collapse of government. They are easily stated as an oppressive group without fear of reprisal from authority, acting solely against a defenseless population.

The only formidable foe involved is our policy and the morals which we are socially required to abide by. Without those catalysts the words ISIS, Daesh, or ISIL wouldn't even come up on a Google word search let alone a region of Iraq. I agree we need our morals but at no point will I find fascination in them. To a small child, a great big room is quite fascinating - to the child's parents it is just the living room.


----------



## Florida173 (Aug 4, 2016)

The Hate Ape said:


> ISIS is not a formidable foe. They are neither impressive, intelligent, or fascinating. They are only performing at the rate one could expect maybe a small-town community to live up to following an apocalypse or collapse of government. They are easily stated as an oppressive group without fear of reprisal from authority, acting solely against a defenseless population.



Self-governing and coordinating across four AORs. Don't discount the additional JRTN foundation that helped facilitate control. Formidable or not, they are resilient enough to our current efforts.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 4, 2016)

And they've shown organizational skill, multi-media savvy and a criminal aptitude for funding their operations. They may be attracting half-retarded, western-phobic dipshits but there is some competence at their core.


----------



## Il Duce (Aug 4, 2016)

The Hate Ape said:


> Just because an entity has the ability to recruit, does not make them sophisticated or any more fascinating. The pool is a bunch of half retarded, western-phobic, dipshits who have an identity crises and seek a sense of belonging to something less shitty than their lives currently are.
> 
> ISIS is not a formidable foe. They are neither impressive, intelligent, or fascinating. They are only performing at the rate one could expect maybe a small-town community to live up to following an apocalypse or collapse of government. They are easily stated as an oppressive group without fear of reprisal from authority, acting solely against a defenseless population.
> 
> The only formidable foe involved is our policy and the morals which we are socially required to abide by. Without those catalysts the words ISIS, Daesh, or ISIL wouldn't even come up on a Google word search let alone a region of Iraq. I agree we need our morals but at no point will I find fascination in them. To a small child, a great big room is quite fascinating - to the child's parents it is just the living room.



ISIS has secured and governed more territory than the US ever did in Iraq, have inspired and facilitated more attacks in the west than Al Queda ever did, and have managed to do it without a single public nation-state ally with hostile powers on all borders.  Be fascinated or not by whatever interests you but dismissing their effectiveness and danger is foolish in anyone involved in national security or intelligence.


----------



## Etype (Aug 5, 2016)

The Hate Ape said:


> ISIS is not a formidable foe. They are neither impressive, intelligent, or fascinating.


If we are classifying them as a state, then no, they are not.

As a terrorist group, they are the most formidable the world has ever seen, hands down, with a doubt.


----------



## The Hate Ape (Aug 5, 2016)

Il Duce said:


> ISIS has secured and governed more territory than the US ever did in Iraq, have inspired and facilitated more attacks in the west than Al Queda ever did, and have managed to do it without a single public nation-state ally with hostile powers on all borders.  Be fascinated or not by whatever interests you but dismissing their effectiveness and danger is foolish in anyone involved in national security or intelligence.



Pump the brakes - I didn't say they should be dismissed. I denounced any respect for them or any tone of interest in them as an organization because in my eyes - they're a fraud.

Yeah they hold territory, but it's because the Kurds don't have the logistics to occupy that much expanded territory and the Iraqi government is in shambles. Are we REALLY going to doubt how much territory the United States could take and govern in Iraq though? The Pesh (Kurdish Peshmerga) have kicked the shit out of them more than a few times. The only thing fucking the Pesh up is their lack of supplies/basic logistics.

FACT: Pesh aren’t as tough as people think they are. They’re actually not far off from ANA skills wise but at least they’re interested in fighting. I’m confident I could do more damage after schooling up a bunch of Marine Supply Admins and throwing THEM in a squad.

Al-Qaeda was aimed at driving western influence out of middle eastern countries, whereas ISIS is (despite popular belief) relatively aimless and just seeks attention in any way it can get. Sure their org has always come with a mission statement but their actions exceed far beyond just establishing a caliphate in the heart of the middle east.

Taliban… those are some resilient little bitches. We threw everything we had at them and they kept coming back like Joe Peschi in a Scorsese film. When it comes to ISIS though – they barely even get “just the tip” of the spear and I only wish you could have seen what I saw.

ISIS is better compared to a fraudulent company, doesn’t matter how you look at it; those in charge are enjoying profit and getting an ego rush as an absolute authority. Those not in charge are probably down for the cause but another interesting FACT: They are dying.


A lot.


It really is that simple. ISIS is bullshit pump-and-dump, Ponzi-scheme terrorist organization. Not fascinating, intimidating, or worth half-the-hype they have regardless of how many idiots they attract from around the world with Twitter or whatever.

I cannot wait for the US to fully drop the hammer on these clowns, after about a six month campaign you’d probably see stacks of Daesh bodies burning at the borders on the horizon.

I’d smoke a cigarette to that view.


H/A


----------



## Il Duce (Aug 5, 2016)

We're two years into a campaign against ISIS. 

You might not be interested, but any insurgent group in the world looking to control territory and resist western intervention is paying a great deal of attention.  Interest and respect are tools to better understand - not admiration.


----------



## The Hate Ape (Aug 5, 2016)

This two year campaign has been an advise, partially-train and babysit mission.

You are right - our enemies and our future enemies are paying attention. One thing I would like for us to learn about our enemies for once is their simplicity. By rounding down our problem to its lowest possible value (for you math geeks) we are able to propose an effective solution in the most simple form available.

To be clear: I feel like we (society and government) have been rounding up...


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 5, 2016)

Two years in, not a lot to show for it.  It could have been over if we just let the Russians and Assad go about their business.


----------



## Brill (Aug 17, 2016)

Pretty good article about IS.

Present at the Creation


----------



## Gunz (Aug 17, 2016)

Il Duce said:


> Yes, I thought it was really fascinating as well.  To me, the Bakr manifesto is like the Islamist version of Mao's Guerilla handbook.  Very interesting to see the confluence of global, tech-savvy, Jihadism meet the practical internal security/repression skills of the Saddam dictatorship.  Match that with the hard-won experience of fighting a technically advanced enemy in the US, along with an inept partner in the Iraq security forces, and you've got the mix for a very powerful insurgent force with more significant staying power than we normally see out of revolutionary regimes.




Bakr has is taken a page out of Muslim history and recreated it, the flight from Mecca by the followers of the Prophet. They settled in Medina, overthrew the existing political order and established _dawat al Islam, _the Islamic state. This is intensely appealing to fundamentalist Muslim sects because it has historical and religious precedence. Arab nations traditionally--as we've seen--have been unable to unify for any length of time, a weakness that Israel has always taken full advantage of. But Bakr has managed to attract adherents from many different sects and nationalities and keep them together because he knows his history. When the Sunni and Shiia split up in the 7th century and various other factions evolved the mission of Jihad was so powerful that it was able to overcome many of the differences and squabbles between the minorities.

I agree with your assessment. He's shown remarkable success reigniting and adapting ancient passions to the modern world.


----------



## Etype (Aug 17, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Bakr has is taken a page out of Muslim history and recreated it, the flight from Mecca by the followers of the Prophet. They settled in Medina, overthrew the existing political order and established _dawat al Islam, _the Islamic state. This is intensely appealing to fundamentalist Muslim sects because it has historical and religious precedence. Arab nations traditionally--as we've seen--have been unable to unify for any length of time, a weakness that Israel has always taken full advantage of. But Bakr has managed to attract adherents from many different sects and nationalities and keep them together because he knows his history. When the Sunni and Shiia split up in the 7th century and various other factions evolved the mission of Jihad was so powerful that it was able to overcome many of the differences and squabbles between the minorities.
> 
> I agree with your assessment. He's shown remarkable success reigniting and adapting ancient passions to the modern world.


The journey is called hijrah, and it's what extremists call their journey from whatever homeland they start from to where they do their terror stuff.

Dabiq One has an article called "Hijrah to Khilafah," which outlines their global campaign plan.


----------



## Etype (Aug 17, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Two years in, not a lot to show for it.  It could have been over if we just let the Russians and Assad go about their business.


Really? Is that why Chechens are still a problem for Russia?


----------



## Single Malt (Aug 18, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Bakr has is taken a page out of Muslim history and recreated it, the flight from Mecca by the followers of the Prophet. They settled in Medina, overthrew the existing political order and established _dawat al Islam, _the Islamic state. This is intensely appealing to fundamentalist Muslim sects because it has historical and religious precedence. Arab nations traditionally--as we've seen--have been unable to unify for any length of time, a weakness that Israel has always taken full advantage of. But Bakr has managed to attract adherents from many different sects and nationalities and keep them together because he knows his history. When the Sunni and Shiia split up in the 7th century and various other factions evolved the mission of Jihad was so powerful that it was able to overcome many of the differences and squabbles between the minorities.
> 
> I agree with your assessment. He's shown remarkable success reigniting and adapting ancient passions to the modern world.



It's not Bakr, but Abu Bakr, which is his adopted name, showing more proof to your point that he is adopting as much as possible from the early history of Islam, specifically Sunni Islam. Abu Bakr was the first Muslim Caliph after Mohammed's death. His daughter Aisha was Mohammed's wife, and he was respected by most of Muslim, just not by the follower's of Mohammed's son-in-law Ali.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 19, 2016)

Etype said:


> Really? Is that why Chechens are still a problem for Russia?


Our material support of rebel groups and to some extent ISIS, since many of the dudes we've trained have either surrendered or died extremely fast  is one of the major reasons this is still going on.


----------



## Salt USMC (Aug 20, 2016)

A helpful video from our friends in Syria demonstrating why dispersion and getting off the X is important


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 20, 2016)

Wonder where he got that TOW...


----------



## Etype (Aug 20, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Wonder where he got that TOW...


That's not a TOW. I think it's a Kornet.

It may be tube launched, optically tracked, wire guided, but not a US TOW.

ETA-


ThunderHorse said:


> Our material support of rebel groups and to some extent ISIS, since many of the dudes we've trained have either surrendered or died extremely fast  is one of the major reasons this is still going on.


What is your speculation based on?


----------



## Brill (Aug 20, 2016)

Etype said:


> That's not a TOW. I think it's a Kornet.



Actually it's a 9K113 known as Konkurs (AKA AT-5 Spandrel).

9K113 Konkurs | Weaponsystems.net

Kornet's sight is not on top.

9K133 Kornet | Weaponsystems.net


----------



## Etype (Aug 20, 2016)

lindy said:


> Actually it's a 9K113 known as Konkurs (AKA AT-5 Spandrel).
> 
> 9K113 Konkurs | Weaponsystems.net
> 
> ...


Thanks, that's a cool website.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 20, 2016)

It's not speculation, it's even in this thread.  But here's just a sample for you:
http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/10/world/middleeast/pentagon-program-islamic-state-syria.html

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/26/w...it-trained-surrendered-materiel-in-syria.html


----------



## Etype (Aug 20, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> It's not speculation, it's even in this thread.  But here's just a sample for you:
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/10/10/world/middleeast/pentagon-program-islamic-state-syria.html
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/2015/09/26/w...it-trained-surrendered-materiel-in-syria.html


From the first article-





> In a letter to the State Department, the Pentagon and the C.I.A. last week, four senators — three Democrats and a Republican — criticized the program. “The Syria Train and Equip Program goes beyond simply being an inefficient use of taxpayer dollars,” the senators wrote. “As many of us initially warned, it is now aiding the very forces we aim to defeat.”
> 
> The letter referred to a recent incident in which some of the American-trained Syrian fighters gave at least a quarter of their United States-provided equipment, including six pickup trucks and a portion of their ammunition, to the Qaeda affiliate in Syria, the Nusra Front.


"The letter referred to a recent incident," seems like conjecture, as these things usually are. The one Republican was John McCain, who I would deem about as credible in military matters as President Obama, but a polar opposite.

I wouldn't speculate as to the effectiveness of something that exists solely in a compartmentalized realm.

I do, however, agree with your assessment, but not necessarily based on what a senator or the NY Times might say.

ETA-
I think the point I meant to convey was this- if spending money over there results in dead extremists or so called "moderates," then we should spend it. But yes, billions is too much.


----------



## AWP (Aug 20, 2016)

@Florida173 you need to back up that Disagree.


----------



## AWP (Aug 21, 2016)

F-22's made the news and the Syrians came pretty close to bombing some of our SOF. I know it would result in a shit storm, but a part of me wanted to watch those -22's smoke someone.

Aerial close encounter between US, Syrian jets - CNNPolitics.com



> _(CNN)_Two American F-22s on patrol over Hasakah, Syria, flew within a mile of two Syrian Su-24 fighter jets and "encouraged" them to leave Friday, a US defense official told CNN.
> The close encounter comes only a day after two Syrian warplanes attacked the Kurds, a key US ally, forcing US special operations forces to be withdrawn from their position in northern Syria.


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## DA SWO (Aug 21, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> F-22's made the news and the Syrians came pretty close to bombing some of our SOF. I know it would result in a shit storm, but a part of me wanted to watch those -22's smoke someone.
> 
> Aerial close encounter between US, Syrian jets - CNNPolitics.com


At least snug up close and let the Syrians shit their pants.
Do we have shoulder launched stuff that can hit the Syrians at altitude (Stingers?)


----------



## compforce (Aug 21, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> At least snug up close and let the Syrians shit their pants.



Something like this...


----------



## Florida173 (Aug 21, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Our material support of rebel groups and to some extent ISIS, since many of the dudes we've trained have either surrendered or died extremely fast  is one of the major reasons this is still going on.



Was commuting and didn't get a chance to answer for my disagree. Stuck at DFW because of weather yesterday. Sorry to forum overlords.

If you completely ignore the globalization of ISIL through their affiliates. North Africa is failing, more so than normal with the vacuum of power, because of the preponderance of ISIL groups in Tunisia and Libya. ISIL Sinai, Indonesia, and Afghanistan are mostly successful without our materiel support. 

This is still going on because it's just the next iteration of the Sunni vs. Shia conflict that we have been part-time consumers of. It's a hard disagree that our materiel support has played a major role. It's more to our lack of commitment to engage our enemy since '79, and maybe involving ourselves unnecessarily in a continuous proxy war.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Aug 22, 2016)

Bunny......:-"


----------



## Florida173 (Aug 22, 2016)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Bunny......:-"
> 
> View attachment 16372



And then you have Hooker parties. Fun times


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 23, 2016)

So the Kurds are who our F-22s were protecting...

U.S.-Backed Kurds to Assad Forces: ‘Surrender or Die’

I would call this confrontation on both the Kurds and the SAA a waste of combat power, and if we're the ones pushing the YPG to gain contact with the SAA, we're being idiots.


----------



## Single Malt (Aug 23, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> So the Kurds are who our F-22s were protecting...
> 
> U.S.-Backed Kurds to Assad Forces: ‘Surrender or Die’
> 
> I would call this confrontation on both the Kurds and the SAA a waste of combat power, and if we're the ones pushing the YPG to gain contact with the SAA, we're being idiots.


Why?


----------



## Etype (Aug 23, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> So the Kurds are who our F-22s were protecting...
> 
> U.S.-Backed Kurds to Assad Forces: ‘Surrender or Die’
> 
> I would call this confrontation on both the Kurds and the SAA a waste of combat power, and if we're the ones pushing the YPG to gain contact with the SAA, we're being idiots.


If only the theater and strategic level decision makers had access to The Daily Beast, they could make informed decision like you!


----------



## AWP (Aug 23, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> So the Kurds are who our F-22s were protecting...
> 
> U.S.-Backed Kurds to Assad Forces: ‘Surrender or Die’



No. We have guys on the ground there, they were nearly (or more) bombed the day before. We set up some -22's in response (and you don't need to be an air strategist to know -22's don't fly alone) and the Syrians tried us. They were unarmed and we saw that, but they were testing us. I work in one of the theater C2 nodes and watched this play out live.

The Russians and Syrians have been rather active in the last few weeks. If you want to believe that the Raptors were there to protect the Kurds, I don't know what to say. Our guys were nearly killed so we dropped a flight of -22's on top of them to see what the Syrians did next. When word came back that the Su-24''s were "slick" you could feel the tension ratchet down a notch.

Our air campaign...it would blow people's minds if they could see the shit we have to put up with from our "allies" to say nothing of the Syrians or our Russian frenemies.


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## ThunderHorse (Aug 23, 2016)

Cool. @Freefalling, that's all well and good but I have not liked nor been cool with the grand strategic effects of having troops or aid of any kind in Syria.  A stable and secular Syria is in our interests even if we hate Assad.  Hell, just stability in that region is better for us.


----------



## AWP (Aug 23, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Cool. @Freefalling, that's all well and good but I have not liked nor been cool with the grand strategic effects of having troops or aid of any kind in Syria.  A stable and secular Syria is in our interests even if we hate Assad.  Hell, just stability in that region is better for us.



I understand your point, but to say our fighters were there to protect the Kurds is an extreme oversimplification and ignores a number of other factors in the air and on the ground that afternoon, assuming someone knew of all the moving pieces.


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## Etype (Aug 23, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> A stable and secular Syria is in our interests even if we hate Assad.  Hell, just stability in that region is better for us.


That ship has long since sailed. ISIS, Al Nusra, Jaysh Al Islam, et al. are all going to make sure Syria is neither free nor secular.

Here's what we are looking at-
1.a. Russia backs Assad, crushes the rebellion and Syria is left as a strong ally.
1.b. Russia gives just enough aid to leave all parties broken and impotent, leaving Syria as a puppet state, dependant on Russia for rebuilding.
2. Russia gives up and ISIS gains total control of Syria.
3. The US protects their imperfect partnership with The Kurds while allowing the undesirables in Syria to continue killing each other.

The goal of UW isn't always to overthrow, it's also conducted to degrade.


----------



## Brill (Aug 23, 2016)

Etype said:


> The goal of UW isn't always to overthrow, it's also conducted to degrade.



That is EXACTLY why the other guys should reduce the footprint, transfer assets to "you", and leave you to it.

No DOD briefings, nothing on CNN, etc. Let Iraqi press and Rudaw cover it.


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 29, 2016)

I agree with the Germans here, and they shouldn't wait until December to withdraw.
Turkey is a little bitch that needs to go away.

Germany Mulls Pulling Out of Incirlik
—BRIAN EVERSTINE
Germany is looking at different locations for its Tornado aircraft and service members as a dispute between the country and Turkey has prevented lawmakers from being able to visit Incirlik Air Base. Germany early this year deployed Tornado ECR reconnaissance and electronic warfare aircraft and an A310 tanker to Incirlik to contribute to the coalition's fight against ISIS. However, Ankara has blocked German lawmakers from visiting the base after the German parliament passed a resolution stating that a 1915 massacre of Armenians by Ottoman forces is a genocide, according to _Reuters_. Some German lawmakers are threatening to pull the aircraft and end the mission unless they can visit the base, and the German Defense Ministry said this week it is studying other base options for the aircraft. The current authority for the deployment ends in December, _Der Spiegel_ reported.


----------



## CQB (Aug 31, 2016)

From ABC radio here, a discussion on terrorism. Listen on line or get the podcast. 

ABC Radio


----------



## benroliver (Sep 1, 2016)

I found this discussion extremely interesting.

Noam Chomsky on Syria Conflict: Cut Off the Flow of Arms & Stop Bombing to Stem the Atrocities | Democracy Now!


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## Florida173 (Sep 1, 2016)

Fuck Noam Chomsky


----------



## Etype (Sep 1, 2016)

benroliver said:


> Cut Off the Flow of Arms...


Brilliant and simple!!! Let's do it!






What a dope. Chomsky's comments were nothing but vague, semi-truths. He didn't offer any type of deeper understanding than the average adult human with cable or internet would have.


----------



## benroliver (Sep 1, 2016)

Etype said:


> Brilliant and simple!!! Let's do it!
> What a dope. Chomsky's comments were nothing but vague, semi-truths. He didn't offer any type of deeper understanding than the average adult human with cable or internet would have.



To be fair, the average American adult probably couldn't identify a single part of the middle east on a map   He does have some more detailed discussions it, I found his work on Iran/Israel to be the most interesting.


----------



## AWP (Sep 1, 2016)

Chomsky's a broken clock and that article's no exception.


----------



## Etype (Sep 1, 2016)

benroliver said:


> To be fair, the average American adult probably couldn't identify a single part of the middle east on a map   He does have some more detailed discussions it, I found his work on Iran/Israel to be the most interesting.


His comments were one degree seperated from, "if everyone stopped fighting, no one would be fighting anymore."


----------



## Etype (Sep 1, 2016)

The Hate Ape said:


> When it comes to ISIS though – they barely even get “just the tip” of the spear and I only wish you could have seen what I saw.


Hmmmm, about that.



... And the Taliban, remember how they crumbled after a few weeks back in 2001? Russia, Syria, Iran, and Iraq have thrown much more at ISIS than the US did at the Taliban back in '01 and early '02, and they've been doing it for years.


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## Totentanz (Sep 1, 2016)

Etype said:


> His comments were one degree seperated from, "if everyone stopped fighting, no one would be fighting anymore."



"Last year I went to Iraq. Before Team America showed up, it was a happy place. They had flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles"


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## Brill (Sep 1, 2016)

Totentanz said:


> "Last year I went to Iraq. Before Team America showed up, it was a happy place. They had flowery meadows and rainbow skies, and rivers made of chocolate, where the children danced and laughed and played with gumdrop smiles"



I always did enjoy Kurdistan.


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## The Hate Ape (Sep 1, 2016)

Etype said:


> Hmmmm, about that.
> 
> 
> 
> ... And the Taliban, remember how they crumbled after a few weeks back in 2001? Russia, Syria, Iran, and Iraq have thrown much more at ISIS than the US did at the Taliban back in '01 and early '02, and they've been doing it for years.



Bravado and 'Merica lines aside, they're (Taliban and ISIS) not the same when it comes to fortitude. The differences are astounding. No doubt that the latter half is much more educated, technically savvy, and are a cunning propaganda machine but that really is the bulk of their punch. Their resourcefulness is all that sustains them.

Everything changes in the scope of battlefield geomatry and whatnot constantly, the enemy I remember in both countries are entirely different with regard to sheer grit and stamina.


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## The Hate Ape (Sep 1, 2016)

Etype said:


> That ship has long since sailed. ISIS, Al Nusra, Jaysh Al Islam, et al. are all going to make sure Syria is neither free nor secular.
> 
> Here's what we are looking at-
> 1.a. Russia backs Assad, crushes the rebellion and Syria is left as a strong ally.
> ...



1B. Was a really intuitive point and totally plausible.
3. Is probably going to happen regardless of all other outcomes.


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## ThunderHorse (Sep 2, 2016)

The Hate Ape said:


> Bravado and 'Merica lines aside, they're (Taliban and ISIS) not the same when it comes to fortitude. The differences are astounding. No doubt that the latter half is much more educated, technically savvy, and are a cunning propaganda machine but that really is the bulk of their punch. Their resourcefulness is all that sustains them.
> 
> Everything changes in the scope of battlefield geomatry and whatnot constantly, the enemy I remember in both countries are entirely different with regard to sheer grit and stamina.


Taliban seem to still be around. . .


----------



## TLDR20 (Sep 2, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Taliban seem to still be around. . .



I think you missed the point entirely.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 2, 2016)

Uh no.


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## Etype (Sep 2, 2016)

The Hate Ape said:


> Bravado and 'Merica lines aside, they're (Taliban and ISIS) not the same when it comes to fortitude. The differences are astounding. No doubt that the latter half is much more educated, technically savvy, and are a cunning propaganda machine but that really is the bulk of their punch. Their resourcefulness is all that sustains them.
> 
> Everything changes in the scope of battlefield geomatry and whatnot constantly, the enemy I remember in both countries are entirely different with regard to sheer grit and stamina.





ThunderHorse said:


> Uh no.


The Taliban rose up, in a power vacuum (aside from other warbands/militias/whatever), to become a legitimate government. They quickly crumbled into an insurgency at the slightest application of pressure.

ISIS rose up in the face of two regional powers and took ground from them, carving out its own territory. It continues to stand defiant against two nation-states, despite external assistance to both.


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## AWP (Sep 2, 2016)

Etype said:


> The Taliban rose up, in a power vacuum (aside from other warbands/militias/whatever), to become a legitimate government. They quickly crumbled into an insurgency at the slightest application of pressure.



They've also enjoyed major support from the Pakistani gov't. Were it not for that I don't think they could take the country in '96. If they succeeded they would lack staying power post-2001. PK's propped them up every step of the way.


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## Brill (Sep 3, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> They've also enjoyed major support from the Pakistani gov't. Were it not for that I don't think they could take the country in '96. If they succeeded they would lack staying power post-2001. PK's propped them up every step of the way.



And...who propped up the PK gov???


----------



## Teufel (Sep 3, 2016)

Etype said:


> The Taliban rose up, in a power vacuum (aside from other warbands/militias/whatever), to become a legitimate government. They quickly crumbled into an insurgency at the slightest application of pressure.
> 
> ISIS rose up in the face of two regional powers and took ground from them, carving out its own territory. It continues to stand defiant against two nation-states, despite external assistance to both.



Excellent assessments in this thread.  I would also add that the Taliban were very unified and very ideologically motivated when they rose to power.  This was not the case when they were deposed.  Many narco-terrorists, local militias, and other criminal opportunists were happy to fly the Taliban banner for an increase in funding and notoriety but I would argue that the vast majority of them did not espouse the Taliban ideology or forego their own personal agendas to support Taliban regional or national objectives.  I believe that these dissociated groups were lashed together with funding lines and unified in name only.  To put it another way, the Taliban were created to stem warlord abuses and establish an Islamic theocracy in Afghanistan.  The current Taliban leadership may continue to pursue these goals but I believe that most "Taliban" militia groups are more concerned with protecting their narcotics trafficking and regional power bases than they are with returning the country to religious rule and Sharia law.  This is one of the many reasons why the Taliban are so fractured and tend to fall apart when put under pressure.


----------



## Teufel (Sep 4, 2016)

Take a look at the FARC and the ELN in Colombia.  The FARC and the ELN started as a marxist/socialist guerrilla movements that aimed to overthrow the Colombian government.  Both used drugs to finance their insurgencies but allowed their ideologies to fade as narcotics trafficking took center stage in their organizations.  The means eventually became the ends.  This is something the Taliban have to struggle with at both the regional and national level.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 7, 2016)

The original statement made by Hillary caused me to laugh-out-loud.

The 3rd Twitter comment made by Luis caused me to laugh even harder.


----------



## AWP (Sep 7, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> The original statement made by Hillary caused me to laugh-out-loud.



We also had a red line in the sand and no boots on the ground, both of which are "myth busted." As for no more troops or no troops..."the lie detector test has determined...that is a lie."

Sent from my Blackberry via my bathroom


----------



## CQB (Sep 8, 2016)

Meanwhile, ISIS have banned the burkha.
ISIS Bans Burqas: Islamic State Deems Hijab A Security Problem In Iraq


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 9, 2016)

Cease Fire for whom? US And Russia Announce Syria Peace Plan


----------



## Kraut783 (Sep 9, 2016)

well, John Kerry on the job...I'm sure it will go smooth  :whatever:


----------



## AWP (Sep 9, 2016)

Kerry announces US-Russia deal on Syrian ceasefire - CNNPolitics.com



> Kerry said this cooperation would entail "some sharing of information," with Russia pertaining to the delineation of the various groups on the battlefield.



I see Russia got what it wanted. At least they have have a "W" out of all this....


----------



## Gunz (Sep 9, 2016)

The Iranians, the Russians...they must love Kerry. To them he's Play Dough Gumby.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 10, 2016)

So based on this ceasefire...nothing will change: RAH


----------



## RackMaster (Sep 10, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> So based on this ceasefire...nothing will change: RAH



Nah, Russia now has the info to target groups on the ground.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 10, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> Nah, Russia now has the info to target groups on the ground.



Exactly. Thanks, Komrad Kerry, now we'll spend a relaxing few days delineating groups on the battlefield that we'll bomb the shit out of when this so-called cease fire is broken by any number of participants as it will inevitably be.


----------



## Brill (Sep 10, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Kerry announces US-Russia deal on Syrian ceasefire - CNNPolitics.com
> 
> 
> 
> I see Russia got what it wanted. At least they have have a "W" out of all this....



I don't understand what our position is regarding the ceasefire.  Syria and Russia should stop targeting the "moderate" Islamic forces?


----------



## AWP (Sep 10, 2016)

The ceasefire's crap in my opinion. It isn't a true "ceasefire" in that we have to hope other parties will do as they are asked/ told by their state sponsor...where a sponsor exists. It does nothing for the larger war against ISIS, only the gaggle that is Syria. Good for Syria if it works. Maybe.

Russia's been after us to share intel, particularly after the shootdown of their Su-24 in and around Turkey. They know we've blanketed the sky with our ISR platforms (because they intercept them and herd them out of areas they don't want us viewing) and they'd like some of that sweet, sweet intel goodness. This is a good PR move for us because it has minimal impact on our whatever-it-is policy in Syria. For us the war is ISIS and if we do something to topple Assad (sorry, that's not our end state. My bad...) so much the better. The Russians used ISIS as an excuse to dive in and prop up Assad and Putin's too smart to give up a strategic position for a PR stunt. I think the Russians are the real winners here, not just the intel aspect, and everyone else loses. Hey, it gave us a great sound bite or two and probably doesn't involve filling a plane with foreign currency to give to a terrorist country. Win, win....


----------



## Brill (Sep 11, 2016)

@Freefalling , Hillary has already been way ahead of the intel "sharing" with the Russians.


----------



## AWP (Sep 11, 2016)

lindy said:


> @Freefalling , Hillary has already been way ahead of the intel "sharing" with the Russians.



Clapping .gifs are overused this week so I'll give you Borat. May Patch Tuesday and Firewall Exemption Requests shine upon you.


----------



## Brill (Sep 11, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Clapping .gifs are overused this week so I'll give you Borat. May Patch Tuesday and Firewall Exemption Requests shine upon you.



Don't make me probe your ports.


----------



## AWP (Sep 11, 2016)

lindy said:


> Don't make me probe your ports.



"Explicit deny."


----------



## Brill (Sep 11, 2016)

Huh? Did the Democrat nominee just accuse the opponent of providing aide and support to a terrorist organization?

Trump's rhetoric, Clinton said, has only fueled the motivations driving ISIS.
"*What unfortunately Donald Trump has done is made our job harder, and given a lot of aid and comfort to ISIS operatives* *and even ISIS officials* who want to make this some sort of clash of civilization -- a religious war," Clinton said. "It's not, and it can't become that."

Hillary Clinton on 9/11: The closest thing to 'hell' I've ever seen - CNNPolitics.com


----------



## Brill (Sep 13, 2016)

What the hell s going on in DC? Carter vs Kerry in the Octagon!

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/09/14/world/middleeast/syria-john-kerry.html?_r=0


----------



## TLDR20 (Sep 13, 2016)

lindy said:


> Huh? Did the Democrat nominee just accuse the opponent of providing aide and support to a terrorist organization?
> 
> Trump's rhetoric, Clinton said, has only fueled the motivations driving ISIS.
> "*What unfortunately Donald Trump has done is made our job harder, and given a lot of aid and comfort to ISIS operatives* *and even ISIS officials* who want to make this some sort of clash of civilization -- a religious war," Clinton said. "It's not, and it can't become that."
> ...



No.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 15, 2016)

Anyone able to read the whole thing?

US Special Forces sabotage White House policy gone disastrously wrong with covert ops in Syria | SOFREP


----------



## CQB (Sep 19, 2016)

Life after Da'esh. 

http://www.economist.com/node/21707208/print


----------



## Brill (Sep 24, 2016)

Anytime Russia can make the US look feckless, the Soviets are projecting power.

A ferocious assault on Aleppo suggests the U.S. may be wrong on Syria


----------



## AWP (Sep 24, 2016)

@lindy I moved your post in case you're wondering.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 24, 2016)

...Syrian and Russian warplanes launched a ferocious assault against rebel-held Aleppo on Friday, burying any hopes that a U.S.-backed cease-fire could be salvaged and calling into question whether the deal would ever have worked...."


Oops, looks like the Bear just deliniated some targets with typical restraint. And made Kerry look like their schoolyard bitch. Again.


----------



## AWP (Sep 24, 2016)

Wait, the Russians and their proxies negotiating a cease fire only to break it within days? I never saw that one coming...


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 25, 2016)

No, it was held to by the Russians and Syrians, it was seven day monday to monday event.  As soon as it was over the SAA and Russians went back after it.  The Turkish front (Al Rai) is now in disarray after our guys with that Turkish Tank detachment withdrew because of a beef with the FSA...well the FSA then got their ass whooped by some ISIS blokes.


----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 1, 2016)

If we keep piecemealing our war in Iraq we're going to lose.  Again.



> US manpower, airpower, and political power have been enough to contain ISIS and prevent the loss of more key terrain, but it hasn’t been enough to reverse strategic losses.  The message to troops in Iraq appears to be, “_don’t lose… but we don’t really want you to win, either_.”  That’s no way to fight a war.


----------



## Brill (Oct 14, 2016)

Shit's getting real up in Ninawa.

http://www.reuters.com/article/us-mideast-crisis-iraq-mosul-exclusive-idUSKBN12E0Z0


----------



## Brill (Oct 14, 2016)

Frontline does it again!

Eloqua - Error Information


----------



## Florida173 (Oct 14, 2016)

lindy said:


> Frontline does it again!
> 
> Eloqua - Error Information



Gotta load up my VPN.. Restricted in my region... Which is kind of funny


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 16, 2016)

Saw a tweet from CNBC...apparently we're considering sanctions against Russia and Syria because of Aleppo...we need to quit wasting treasure on that conflict before we start wasting blood.


----------



## Etype (Oct 16, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> ... before we start wasting blood.


Too late, but I agree.


----------



## Florida173 (Oct 17, 2016)

@Peshmergaswe says "The battle to retake IS stronghold Mosul has officially begun. Wish is a good luck and may God protect is all."

Was posted at about 0300

Swedish Kurd fighting in Iraq.

Militaires Sans Frontières (@peshmergaswe) • Instagram photos and videos

Peshmergaswe | Facebook


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 17, 2016)

Here's an ok live feed of the battle and associated political crap.  Apparently Turkey feels left out.


Battle for Mosul: Isis stronghold under attack from Iraqi and Kurdish forces – latest news


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Get after it, we have a significant presence of conventional and SOF supporting this offensive.  Remember when Hillary said no troops on the ground...ha.  Although I find it a tad unintelligent for the CJFFLC to undergoing a RIPTOA during the offensive. 

Army announces Iraq deployment for 500 soldiers


----------



## AWP (Oct 17, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> Apparently Turkey feels left out.



Turkey can fuck off and stay out of our ROZ's. It can fuck off period.


----------



## TLDR20 (Oct 17, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Get after it, we have a significant presence of conventional and SOF supporting this offensive.  Remember when Hillary said no troops on the ground...ha.  Although I find it a tad unintelligent for the CJFFLC to undergoing a RIPTOA during the offensive.
> 
> Army announces Iraq deployment for 500 soldiers



Hillary made that decision as the democratic  candidate for president?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 17, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Hillary made that decision as the democratic  candidate for president?


Not my point.  The point is we already have SMs on the ground.


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 17, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Get after it, we have a significant presence of conventional and SOF supporting this offensive.  Remember when Hillary said no troops on the ground...ha.  Although I find it a tad unintelligent for the CJFFLC to undergoing a RIPTOA during the offensive.
> 
> Army announces Iraq deployment for 500 soldiers


So we should pause the war every time we have a TOA?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 17, 2016)

Depends on how you look at the coin.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 18, 2016)

Where is Vice News?






The French Reporters though.


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## Marine0311 (Oct 18, 2016)

Get some!


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## Phoenix15 (Oct 21, 2016)

Got a few questions about daesh militants in/around Mosul. Most news outlets quote the Pentagon and intelligence agencies claiming there are 5,000-15,000 militants in Mosul. Just wondering what this community estimates. I find it hard to believe that they can only field a max of 15,000 militants from a city of 1 million people living underneath their rule. Also, is it likely that ISIS moves combatants in from Tal Afar or commits to a large counter offensive out of Hawija?  (civilian with intro completed a couple years ago).


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 21, 2016)

It seems that these cats still had the wherewithal and initiative to conduct a raid, hmmmm....

http://www.npr.org/sections/thetwo-...acks-city-of-kirkuk-as-battle-for-mosul-rages


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## Brill (Oct 24, 2016)

This is what happens without a cohesive national strategy and only "hope &change".

Plans to send heavier weapons to CIA-backed rebels in Syria stall amid White House skepticism



> The proposal, which involved weapons that might help those forces defend themselves against Russian aircraft and artillery, made its way onto the agenda of a recent meeting President Obama held with his national security team.
> 
> And that’s as far as it got. Neither approved nor rejected, the plan was left in a state of ambiguity that U.S. officials said reflects growing administration skepticism about escalating a covert CIA program that has trained and armed thousands of Syrian fighters over the past three years.
> 
> The operation has served as the centerpiece of the U.S. strategy to press Syrian President Bashar al-Assad to step aside. But U.S. officials said there are growing doubts that even an expanded version could achieve that outcome because of Moscow’s intervention. Obama, officials said, *now seems inclined to leave the fate of the CIA program up to the next occupant of the White House*.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 24, 2016)

Phoenix15 said:


> Got a few questions about daesh militants in/around Mosul. Most news outlets quote the Pentagon and intelligence agencies claiming there are 5,000-15,000 militants in Mosul. Just wondering what this community estimates. I find it hard to believe that they can only field a max of 15,000 militants from a city of 1 million people living underneath their rule. Also, is it likely that ISIS moves combatants in from Tal Afar or commits to a large counter offensive out of Hawija?  (civilian with intro completed a couple years ago).



That's one of the frustrating things about this whole situation, the fact that such relatively low numbers of fighters can take over such a strategically important city.

I don't know what the numbers are, if the public reports are 5-15k then that's fine with me.  We often saw masses of fighters drift away when they figured out that the Americans... er, I mean the Iraqis were "serious this time."  They're probably leaving enough fighters behind to make things really, really difficult for everyone, but I don't think they're interested in "fight and die" en masse.


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## Il Duce (Oct 24, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> That's one of the frustrating things about this whole situation, the fact that such relatively low numbers of fighters can take over such a strategically important city.
> 
> I don't know what the numbers are, if the public reports are 5-15k then that's fine with me.  We often saw masses of fighters drift away when they figured out that the Americans... er, I mean the Iraqis were "serious this time."  They're probably leaving enough fighters behind to make things really, really difficult for everyone, but I don't think they're interested in "fight and die" en masse.



I think it's a really interesting aspect of these failed or low-functioning state insurgencies - the ability for insurgents to control large swathes of territory and population with a limited force, especially when conventional expeditionary forces (like the US) cannot do so even with much larger formations.  I read that in the American Revolution only about 1/3 of the white male citizenry had a strong position on independence on each side - with the remaining 1/3 having no position.  Then, from that ideological base still less than 10% of the people actually participated in any form in the revolution (troops, resources).

The idea that a small portion of the population with organization, motivation, and supply (arms, ammunition, communication) can dominate a much larger area/population is one we really ought to explore more thoroughly in examining COIN or just political science in general.  Islamists have dominated the counter-revolution, if not the revolution itself throughout the middle east and increasingly Africa.  It seems to me the scholarship and understanding of the practical aspects of those accomplishments is very thin.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 24, 2016)

lindy said:


> This is what happens without a cohesive national strategy and only "hope &change".
> Plans to send heavier weapons to CIA-backed rebels in Syria stall amid White House skepticism


How about shutting it down!


----------



## Brill (Oct 26, 2016)

Worth a close read.

After the Battle for Mosul, Get Ready for the Islamic State to Go Underground


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## CQB (Oct 27, 2016)

Falais Pocket anyone?


----------



## Brill (Oct 30, 2016)

Shi'a Militia in blocking positions west of Mosul. Only in 2016. 

Mosul Iraq battle: Shia militias aim to take Tal Afar
Mosul Iraq battle: Shia militias aim to take Tal Afar - BBC News


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## Gunz (Oct 30, 2016)

Il Duce said:


> I think it's a really interesting aspect of these failed or low-functioning state insurgencies - the ability for insurgents to control large swathes of territory and population with a limited force, especially when conventional expeditionary forces (like the US) cannot do so even with much larger formations.  I read that in the American Revolution only about 1/3 of the white male citizenry had a strong position on independence on each side - with the remaining 1/3 having no position.  Then, from that ideological base still less than 10% of the people actually participated in any form in the revolution (troops, resources).
> 
> The idea that a small portion of the population with organization, motivation, and supply (arms, ammunition, communication) can dominate a much larger area/population is one we really ought to explore more thoroughly in examining COIN or just political science in general.  Islamists have dominated the counter-revolution, if not the revolution itself throughout the middle east and increasingly Africa.  It seems to me the scholarship and understanding of the practical aspects of those accomplishments is very thin.




One very salient reason, I believe, why limited forces like IS can dominate large portions of a population much more effectively than conventional forces is because they can use methods and tactics unavailable to most "civilized" Western-style militarys...like extortion, kidnapping and various forms of intimidation up to and including mass public executions. Nothing like naked fear to motivate the herd. This gives the insurgents enormous leverage, far beyond proportion. It's an economy of power that we can't hope to match with good intentions, free weapons and foreign internal defense. Our way takes way too long, requires enormous logistics and resources, building up rapport, winning hearts and minds, civic action initiatives, nation building etc etc...

All they have to do to get instant results is shoot some people... and the rest will fall all over themselves trying to cooperate.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Oct 30, 2016)

Simply put:  ISIL doesn't follow a weak sauce ROE!!!!


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## Il Duce (Oct 30, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> One very salient reason, I believe, why limited forces like IS can dominate large portions of a population much more effectively than conventional forces is because they can use methods and tactics unavailable to most "civilized" Western-style militarys...like extortion, kidnapping and various forms of intimidation up to and including mass public executions. Nothing like naked fear to motivate the herd. This gives the insurgents enormous leverage, far beyond proportion. It's an economy of power that we can't hope to match with good intentions, free weapons and foreign internal defense. Our way takes way too long, requires enormous logistics and resources, building up rapport, winning hearts and minds, civic action initiatives, nation building etc etc...
> 
> All they have to do to get instant results is shoot some people... and the rest will fall all over themselves trying to cooperate.



I agree, to a point.  I think it's much more analogous to the police and criminals.  A street gang can implement a variety of brutal tactics within a population but still enjoy enough support to operate freely if not dominate.  A police force on the other hand cannot utilize even a portion of the same tactics without being rejected by the population as a whole.  I would think it is a topic for further sociological and political science study but I would wager it rests on a couple of factors.

The criminal element lives within the population and is a part of the cultural make-up - positive and negative - of the population.  Their power is also limited - they can gain fear/respect, limited participation of the populace, and adherence to some normative principles (no snitching, avoiding certain areas, tolerance of non-property crime - but they will never be able to totally control a population, initiate significant changes, or integrate the population into a wider community.  The Police or other elements of the state can achieve that level of power - but they are also separated from the population so will always be judged on a scale of bringing external change and being a part of the 'other' in repressing the local population.  in that way I think it dovetails entirely with the in-group/out-group psychological factors Lawrence Eagleman talks about as being a part of our social and psychological make-up.

To me it really gets after those principles of COIN that deal with enabling local government and making allies.  I think our (US) superficial parables about 'winning hearts and minds' falls woefully short in this area.  The bottom line is you have to get the local populace, and more importantly local government/power structure (which may be entirely informal) to invest in your objectives.  But, they're going to find their own reasons (or not) not necessarily those you offer them.


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## Gunz (Oct 30, 2016)

Il Duce said:


> I agree, to a point.  I think it's much more analogous to the police and criminals.  A street gang can implement a variety of brutal tactics within a population but still enjoy enough support to operate freely if not dominate.  A police force on the other hand cannot utilize even a portion of the same tactics without being rejected by the population as a whole.  I would think it is a topic for further sociological and political science study but I would wager it rests on a couple of factors.
> 
> The criminal element lives within the population and is a part of the cultural make-up - positive and negative - of the population.  Their power is also limited - they can gain fear/respect, limited participation of the populace, and adherence to some normative principles (no snitching, avoiding certain areas, tolerance of non-property crime - but they will never be able to totally control a population, initiate significant changes, or integrate the population into a wider community.  The Police or other elements of the state can achieve that level of power - but they are also separated from the population so will always be judged on a scale of bringing external change and being a part of the 'other' in repressing the local population.  in that way I think it dovetails entirely with the in-group/out-group psychological factors Lawrence Eagleman talks about as being a part of our social and psychological make-up.
> 
> To me it really gets after those principles of COIN that deal with enabling local government and making allies.  I think our (US) superficial parables about 'winning hearts and minds' falls woefully short in this area.  The bottom line is you have to get the local populace, and more importantly local government/power structure (which may be entirely informal) to invest in your objectives.  But, they're going to find their own reasons (or not) not necessarily those you offer them.




I understand what you're saying about the level of power able to be harnessed and utilized by elements of the state, from an organizational standpoint. I also agree with you that these limited forces exerting criminal influence over a certain population are also limited in what they can achieve beyond a certain point. I defer to your knowledge and experience in Iraq with the larger issue here. But I just wonder if its valid to compare ISIS and it's activities to those of a criminal gang operating in a predominantly lawful society. There doesn't seem to be any element of the state, or police force, or opposition to counter the influence of ISIS in places like Mosul. At least not at the moment. And before you can get the local government/power structure to invest in your objectives, there has to_ be_ a local government and power structure.

In remote areas, like in Vietnam and Afghanistan, the people who have the power are the people who have the guns and who just happen to be, at that moment, standing in front of your house.

To me, the most important elements of COIN are killing enough of the enemy to make him fear trespassing into your area, and to _maintain a presence _for however long it takes to make the population feel secure and safe from enemy intimidation. If you can't do at least that, your other initiatives don't have a chance. And we don't seem to be able to invest the time.

I'm hoping I followed you here.


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## Il Duce (Oct 30, 2016)

Yeah, I think you're right on the differences.  Imperfect analogy on my part.

Not sure if I've mentioned it on SS before or not but Francis Fukuyama wrote two books in the last couple years on the rise of political systems from pre-history to the modern era.  The first 'The Origins of Political Order' I think is really applicable to this discussion - and his work was what I was thinking of when trying to craft my response.

He lays out how social structure is an evolutionary advantage and how political organization arises from primitive tribal groups to complex civil societies.  I think there is a lot of applicability to his work when talking about the rise of political organizations like ISIS which are coercive but still more than tribal (leveraging kinship ties).

I think that's where we get into the salience of the term 'Islamic Terror.'  Islam - or the association with it - is the ideological bond ISIS uses to gain and maintain legitimacy.  The Obama administration has expressed pretty clearly their unwillingness to say 'Islam' in any reference to ISIS in an effort to hamper (or at least not to help) that legitimacy.  I think there's a strong argument to say what the administration calls it isn't going to build or fail to build legitimacy but that's what the administration believes - and it's a logical position.  It's one of the reasons I find these 'Obama hates America and loves ISIS because he doesn't say Islamic Terrorism' arguments to be facile and disingenuous.  I'd be much more sympathetic to 'this is why the administration's belief is wrong and the benefit we'll get from calling a spade a spade.'  I've yet to hear that argument anywhere on the right.


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## Gunz (Oct 30, 2016)

Good points, sir. I'll have to look into the Fukuyama books.


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## Etype (Nov 1, 2016)

Il Duce said:


> I think that's where we get into the salience of the term 'Islamic Terror.'  Islam - or the association with it - is the ideological bond ISIS uses to gain and maintain legitimacy.  The Obama administration has expressed pretty clearly their unwillingness to say 'Islam' in any reference to ISIS in an effort to hamper (or at least not to help) that legitimacy.  I think there's a strong argument to say what the administration calls it isn't going to build or fail to build legitimacy but that's what the administration believes - and it's a logical position.  It's one of the reasons I find these 'Obama hates America and loves ISIS because he doesn't say Islamic Terrorism' arguments to be facile and disingenuous.  I'd be much more sympathetic to 'this is why the administration's belief is wrong and the benefit we'll get from calling a spade a spade.'  I've yet to hear that argument anywhere on the right.


The term the Arabic speaking media uses to describe IS translates roughly to "Gang State." I don't see why we haven't adopted something like that.

Then again, if you look at examples like "jihadi" and Hilary's reset button, we are habitually terrible with languages here in the US (and the rest of the world knows it).


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## RackMaster (Nov 1, 2016)

Fuck those Daesh bitches!


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## Brill (Nov 1, 2016)

Etype said:


> The term the Arabic speaking media uses to describe IS translates roughly to "Gang State." I don't see why we haven't adopted something like that.
> 
> Then again, if you look at examples like "jihadi" and Hilary's reset button, we are habitually terrible with languages here in the US (and the rest of the world knows it).



Exactly! It's totally political decision to use ISIL.


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## benroliver (Nov 3, 2016)

I was wondering if you guys could help me understand a few things regarding the tactics used to retake a city like Mosul.  I have spent the last few months reading as much as I can in preparation for my own enlistment and I find found the more I read, the less I know :) . So far I am having a hard time grasping how the Islamic State can consistently dig and control the populations of large regions yet manage to flee fairly easily when overwhelmed.  Is it just logistics that these cities cannot be surrounded and controlled? How is it that they can just abandon the area simply return again to retake it as soon as the occupying force leaves? It seems like unless its a huge air strike they normally take small numbers of casualties and just tuck and run.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 3, 2016)

Il Duce said:


> Yeah, I think you're right on the differences.  Imperfect analogy on my part.
> 
> Not sure if I've mentioned it on SS before or not but Francis Fukuyama wrote two books in the last couple years on the rise of political systems from pre-history to the modern era.  The first 'The Origins of Political Order' I think is really applicable to this discussion - and his work was what I was thinking of when trying to craft my response.
> 
> ...



Fukuyama is a good writer and a deep thinker, but he lost a lot of credibility after "The End of History."


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## Il Duce (Nov 3, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Fukuyama is a good writer and a deep thinker, but he lost a lot of credibility after "The End of History."



I don't know, I think a lot of people take the headline/title of 'The End of History' and don't look at what the book actually said.  It certainly turned out to be a wrong thesis - the triumph of liberal democracy as a form of government - but it was a valuable position and contribution to political science.  I feel like people give all this shit to Fukuyama for that kind of stance but heap non on Samuel Huntington for the same thing.  Nobody says 'Clash of Civilizations' or 'The Soldier and the State' got the state of the world or future exactly right - but they do value them for making huge contributions to political science scholarship.

I felt the same way about Fukuyama after the end of history and his flirtation with neo-conservatism but these two books really brought me back.  Highly recommended.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 3, 2016)

benroliver said:


> I was wondering if you guys could help me understand a few things regarding the tactics used to retake a city like Mosul.  I have spent the last few months reading as much as I can in preparation for my own enlistment and I find found the more I read, the less I know :) . So far I am having a hard time grasping how the Islamic State can consistently dig and control the populations of large regions yet manage to flee fairly easily when overwhelmed.  Is it just logistics that these cities cannot be surrounded and controlled? How is it that they can just abandon the area simply return again to retake it as soon as the occupying force leaves? It seems like unless its a huge air strike they normally take small numbers of casualties and just tuck and run.



One of the hallmarks of asymmetric warfare is the ability of the insurgents to blend in with the civilian population. Essentially they are often able to disperse and "disappear" when pressured and reform and regroup when the situation becomes more advantageous.


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## benroliver (Nov 3, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> One of the hallmarks of asymmetric warfare is the ability of the insurgents to blend in with the civilian population. Essentially they are often able to disperse and "disappear" when pressured and reform and regroup when the situation becomes more advantageous.



Ah i see, so they really just never leave. It would seem to me then that the importance would then need to be placed on gaining the trust of the civilian population. Seems like nearly an impossible task when they are used as human shields


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## Etype (Nov 3, 2016)

benroliver said:


> Ah i see, so they really just never leave.


Iraq and Syria don't have roads like we are used to. Most cities only have one or two main highways running through them. The terrain between the highways is usually impassable by any type of wheeled vehicle due to deep creek beds.

Here's a rough example- the enemy controls city X, and on the north side of city X is enemy terrain; to the south side of city X is friendly-held territory. City X has a main north-south highway, and another east-west highway. The east-west road would be irrelevant, and it would be impossible for the north highway to be cutoff unless the friendly forces committed to a long distance dismounted movement, at night, with a lot of heavy equipment.

That last sentence is what most forces, Kurds, Iraqis, Syrians, and IS are not willing to do.


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## benroliver (Nov 3, 2016)

Etype said:


> That last sentence is what most forces, Kurds, Iraqis, Syrians, and IS are not willing to do.



Makes sense.
I watched a few video with some embedded journalists who were with the Peshmerga and they were very lightly armed.  It was to the point where they just held some high ground and fired warning shots to anything that approached but they couldn't even really engage them at all. Then snipers kept them pinned too, they didnt having anything more than  a few mortars to respond to that.


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## Gunz (Nov 4, 2016)

benroliver said:


> Ah i see, so they really just never leave...



Not necessarily. In Vietnam and Afghanistan, for instance, the insurgent forces can disperse and withdraw from contested areas and regroup later in mountains or jungle, where their supplies are cached in hidden positions. There they can refit and wait for another opportunity to infiltrate and strike.

I differ to @Etype and our other Iraqi veterans here with regard to IS...their options for withdrawal may be more limited because of terrain.


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## Etype (Nov 4, 2016)

benroliver said:


> Ah i see, so they really just never leave. It would seem to me then that the importance would then need to be placed on gaining the trust of the civilian population. Seems like nearly an impossible task when they are used as human shields


Regardless of where it occurs, insurgencies and UW consist of relatively the same elements.  UW has the aim to coherce, disrupt, or overthrow a government- which is the same goal of an insurgency.

The UW model as defined by the US military consists of an auxiliary, an underground, and the guerillas.  I'd argue that every insurgency in the world that's seen marginal success has similar elements.

The guerillas (the professional fighters), don't enter an area until the auxiliary has-
- a mechanism to get them into the area.
- a network of safe houses to support them.
- a mechanism to quickly move them out if the area.

We used this in WWII in France and SE Asia, @Ocoka One can probably attest to the VC using similar practices in and around Vietnam, and it is what IS is doing in Iraq.

ETA- the auxiliary is usually comprised of locals who have knowledge of the area and are able to move the fighters around quickly and effectively.  To think that at least some portion of the population doesn't support the cause is flawed logic.


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## Gunz (Nov 4, 2016)

Etype said:


> Regardless of where it occurs, insurgencies and UW consist of relatively the same elements.  UW has the aim to coherce, disrupt, or overthrow a government- which is the same goal of an insurgency.
> 
> The UW model as defined by the US military consists of an auxiliary, an underground, and the guerillas.  I'd argue that every insurgency in the world that's seen marginal success has similar elements.
> 
> ...



Absolutely. As Mao said, the people are the ocean in which the guerrilla fighter swims. Lack of support from the civilian population is one of the main reasons Che Guevara failed to incite revolution in the Congo and Bolivia. (Not to mention the CIA, Special Forces and US Army Rangers in La Esperanza helping the Bolivians to track him down and kill him.)


----------



## Brill (Nov 4, 2016)

Etype said:


> Regardless of where it occurs, insurgencies and UW consist of relatively the same elements.  UW has the aim to coherce, disrupt, or overthrow a government- which is the same goal of an insurgency.
> 
> The UW model as defined by the US military consists of an auxiliary, an underground, and the guerillas.  I'd argue that every insurgency in the world that's seen marginal success has similar elements.
> 
> ...



Exactly how IS took Mosul.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 5, 2016)

Il Duce said:


> I don't know, I think a lot of people take the headline/title of 'The End of History' and don't look at what the book actually said.  It certainly turned out to be a wrong thesis - the triumph of liberal democracy as a form of government - but it was a valuable position and contribution to political science.  I feel like people give all this shit to Fukuyama for that kind of stance but heap non on Samuel Huntington for the same thing.  Nobody says 'Clash of Civilizations' or 'The Soldier and the State' got the state of the world or future exactly right - but they do value them for making huge contributions to political science scholarship.
> 
> I felt the same way about Fukuyama after the end of history and his flirtation with neo-conservatism but these two books really brought me back.  Highly recommended.



The reason people beat up on Fukuyama and not Huntington is that Fukuyama got it wrong and Huntington didn't.  In fact, Huntington wrote his essay-then-book in response to Fukuyama's work.

Huntington said the differences between cultures are real, and visceral, and conflictual.  I think the evidence in support of this thesis is compelling and conspicuous and doesn't need further explanation.

Fukuyama's thesis was "the triumph of the Western idea," that basically we (the West) won.  His concept of Western democracy as "the final form of government," arguable on its face when it was first published in the early 1990s, was completely discredited since.  One only has to look at the Middle East to see that there is still a long road to travel before we reach "the end of history."  His influence and those who share his perspective help promote the ill-founded "democratic peace theory" that led directly to the idea that we should (or even could) engage in nation building in places that were not only not ready for it, but we (IAW Huntington) fundamentally at odds with those ideas and willing to resist them violently.


----------



## Brill (Nov 5, 2016)

^^^

I initially read that as Fuk Yo Mamma.  Back to the coffee pot!


----------



## Il Duce (Nov 5, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> The reason people beat up on Fukuyama and not Huntington is that Fukuyama got it wrong and Huntington didn't.  In fact, Huntington wrote his essay-then-book in response to Fukuyama's work.
> 
> Huntington said the differences between cultures are real, and visceral, and conflictual.  I think the evidence in support of this thesis is compelling and conspicuous and doesn't need further explanation.
> 
> Fukuyama's thesis was "the triumph of the Western idea," that basically we (the West) won.  His concept of Western democracy as "the final form of government," arguable on its face when it was first published in the early 1990s, was completely discredited since.  One only has to look at the Middle East to see that there is still a long road to travel before we reach "the end of history."  His influence and those who share his perspective help promote the ill-founded "democratic peace theory" that led directly to the idea that we should (or even could) engage in nation building in places that were not only not ready for it, but we (IAW Huntington) fundamentally at odds with those ideas and willing to resist them violently.



I think I disagree on how strong Huntington's arguments have proven but I see your point on Fukuyama.  I guess I think of both as academics adding to academic literature - not as folks offering a blueprint for how the world works and how we should live like Marx or Engels.  I feel like in that context Fukuyama offered some valuable things in the end of history - just like Mearsheimer, Walt, Keone and others have - without having to have been right in every case.

Still, good to know how the academic community sees him.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 5, 2016)

Il Duce said:


> I think I disagree on how strong Huntington's arguments have proven but I see your point on Fukuyama.  I guess I think of both as academics adding to academic literature - not as folks offering a blueprint for how the world works and how we should live like Marx or Engels.  I feel like in that context Fukuyama offered some valuable things in the end of history - just like Mearsheimer, Walt, Keone and others have - without having to have been right in every case.
> 
> Still, good to know how the academic community sees him.



There are plenty of people in the community who completely agree with what you said about both Fukuyama and Huntington (why do these people have such long names?).  I taught both in my "intro to IR" class and it's fascinating to hear the discussions.


----------



## Dienekes (Nov 5, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> His influence and those who share his perspective help promote the ill-founded "democratic peace theory" that led directly to the idea that we should (or even could) engage in nation building in places that were not only not ready for it



I don't necessarily believe in the democratic peace theory outright, but I have trouble seeing it as ill-founded. It was definitely misused and operationalized into "let's make the world democratic so there are no wars", but the basic premise that democratic countries do not fight each other seems to have been true. I mainly believe it has to do with incentive structures and the "us vs the other" mentality where we see westernized/westernizing societies in the "us" block. I think that will change in the next 50-100 years as each country's incentive structures change, but for the times we live in, it is certainly much less likely for any westernized democracy to go to war with each other any time soon.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 5, 2016)

Dienekes said:


> I don't necessarily believe in the democratic peace theory outright, but I have trouble seeing it as ill-founded. It was definitely misused and operationalized into "let's make the world democratic so there are no wars", but the basic premise that democratic countries do not fight each other seems to have been true. I mainly believe it has to do with incentive structures and the "us vs the other" mentality where we see westernized/westernizing societies in the "us" block. I think that will change in the next 50-100 years as each country's incentive structures change, but for the times we live in, it is certainly much less likely for any westernized democracy to go to war with each other any time soon.



That's the problem, it's not the "Westernized democratic peace theory," it's the "democratic peace theory."  The fundamental premise is that democracies don't fight each other.  Except they do. 

Democracies, especially new ones, are the most pugnacious types of government out there.  They can, and do, fight each other. So to fit the model, they had to change it to "mature democracies don't fight each other," and then "mature Western democracies don't fight each other."  People who believe in DPT ascribe causation when there is only correlation.  There are other things at play besides democratization that explain why Western democracies don't fight each other, but they make people uncomfortable to talk about.


----------



## Dienekes (Nov 5, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> That's the problem, it's not the "Westernized democratic peace theory," it's the "democratic peace theory."  The fundamental premise is that democracies don't fight each other.  Except they do.
> 
> Democracies, especially new ones, are the most pugnacious types of government out there.  They can, and do, fight each other. So to fit the model, they had to change it to "mature democracies don't fight each other," and then "mature Western democracies don't fight each other."  People who believe in DPT ascribe causation when there is only correlation.  There are other things at play besides democratization that explain why Western democracies don't fight each other, but they make people uncomfortable to talk about.



I agree with that, but is there another type of democracy that doesn't fall under the category of westernized? What constitutes westernized? I meant it to fall in line with a "free" economy, more liberal values, and democracy such as Most of Europe, India, South Korea, Japan and such, but now, that I think about it, I don't know of a democracy that doesn't fall under those parameters. 

The main causal argument that I've heard is the will of the people in going to war where the will is simply not there because it is difficult to come up with a really solid argument for war when the opponent does not fall into the "other" category. Why go to war with them if they aren't "evil" or some other short-sighted reason that the public doesn't care about. That causal argument obviously doesn't cover any of the realist explanations for casus belli, but surely, you might concede that it certainly carries at least a little bit of weight, sir. Public opinion is of the main reasons for our ill-advised pullout in Vietnam.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 6, 2016)

Dienekes said:


> I agree with that, but is there another type of democracy that doesn't fall under the category of westernized? What constitutes westernized? I meant it to fall in line with a "free" economy, more liberal values, and democracy such as Most of Europe, India, South Korea, Japan and such, but now, that I think about it, I don't know of a democracy that doesn't fall under those parameters.
> 
> The main causal argument that I've heard is the will of the people in going to war where the will is simply not there because it is difficult to come up with a really solid argument for war when the opponent does not fall into the "other" category. Why go to war with them if they aren't "evil" or some other short-sighted reason that the public doesn't care about. That causal argument obviously doesn't cover any of the realist explanations for casus belli, but surely, you might concede that it certainly carries at least a little bit of weight, sir. Public opinion is of the main reasons for our ill-advised pullout in Vietnam.



Yes, of course, there are many non-Western democracies.  And some them regularly fight each other.

India/Pakistan

Russia/Ukraine

Israel/Palestine

Numerous African states

No I don't believe DPT holds much weight, unless you caveat it into uselessness, or start considering author causes of stability such as a regional hegemon, nuclear weapons, or "they haven't started fighting each other... yet."


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## Dienekes (Nov 8, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Yes, of course, there are many non-Western democracies.  And some them regularly fight each other.
> 
> India/Pakistan
> 
> ...



I do see your point about over defining the DPT into uselessness. To my fault, I didn't consider Russia, Ukraine, or any of the African countries. I suppose the realist perspective continues to dominate unrelentingly. Thank you for the discussion, sir.


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## Brill (Nov 8, 2016)

@Marauder06 , would you really consider Russia a democracy?


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 8, 2016)

They are a democracy as much as Turkey is.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 14, 2016)

So what's the current scoop on ISIS, I'm catching small stories of IA having some success here and there. But not anything screaming out that this shit show is in the bag yet. Any insight would be cool to read.


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## AWP (Nov 14, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> So what's the current scoop on ISIS, I'm catching small stories of IA having some success here and there. But not anything screaming out that this shit show is in the bag yet. Any insight would be cool to read.



Gains are slowly being made as far as territory controlled, this will stretch on for some time and it remains to be seen if the Iraqi gov't can hold onto what it "controls." The whole situation is a giant turd.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 15, 2016)

Two news reports from FR 24


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## RackMaster (Nov 15, 2016)

Canadian "trainers" shoot first and hospital is up and running.

Canada's special forces shoot first when required in Iraq conflict


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 27, 2016)

Huh.

Target practice for the Israelis.

ISIS fighters target Israel for the first time and are obliterated by warplanes after firing rockets are soldiers  | Daily Mail Online


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## Grunt (Nov 27, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Huh.
> 
> Target practice for the Israelis.
> 
> ISIS fighters target Israel for the first time and are obliterated by warplanes after firing rockets are soldiers  | Daily Mail Online



I must say, Brother, that if true, it always brightens my day to hear when someone brings the pain to ISIS. 

Really, I truly enjoy it!


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## Marauder06 (Nov 29, 2016)

Should the President (or the PE when he takes over) tell the US mil to stop "taking a knee" and get after ISIS?



> Politicians cringe at the idea of putting boots on the ground and flail about for some new, innovative way for America to fight wars without, you know, really fighting wars. We are reminded that there is “no military solution” to Daesh. We shake our heads at the barbarism of Daesh and then warn ourselves of hazily-defined “overreactions.” We try to degrade the attacks down to the level of a glorified gang shooting. And Madonna wants us all to just love each other, which, by far, seems the most palatable solution. I mean, who doesn’t love love? And so the country quivers, Hamlet-like, in a tepid, neurotic martiality.  It’s enough to make you wonder, why do we even have a military?


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 29, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Should the President (or the PE when he takes over) tell the US mil to stop "taking a knee" and get after ISIS?



This could start a ten-page rant.


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## RackMaster (Nov 29, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Should the President (or the PE when he takes over) tell the US mil to stop "taking a knee" and get after ISIS?



Not just the US but the whole Western World needs to man the fuck up and destroy every last one of those savages.


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## Marine0311 (Nov 29, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> This could start a ten-page rant.



20


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## Gunz (Nov 29, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> Not just the US but the whole Western World needs to man the fuck up and destroy every last one of those savages.



I could see two divisions, reinforced, from the US--maybe one Army and one Marine--with regimental contributions from NATO, putting an end to these sadistic fucks pretty quickly. We've gone to war for lesser reasons, without any direct provocation, to stop the spread of communism, to depose Saddam, to depose Noriega, to protect US interests in Grenada, etc. 

What does it take? How atrocious, how outrageous do the acts of ISIS have to be before "the whole Western World" mans the fuck up and mobilizes a force with crushing power? Another 9/11 apparently.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 29, 2016)

I'm glad we're not more involved on the ground in Syria or Iraq.  

I'll be honest and say the only reason I care at all about Iraqis and Syrians getting killed in Iraq and Syria is because of the potential spillage over into US interests.  We're not willing to do the kinds of things it would take to end the fighting in either location, which would include massive civilian casualties, a tremendous expenditure of money (that we do't have), and an occupation of large swathes of foreign land by US troops (which the whole world would give us shit over).  At the end of the day it's not a question of capability, it's a question of will.  We can't want it more than they do.  Millions of military-aged men fled Syria and Iraq and went to Europe, Turkey, and other locations across the globe.  We've offered to train them and send them back.  How many did we get, at last count?  Something like literally six?  They don't want to fight for their country, why should I go fight for it, especially when the alternative (radical Sunnis in charge in Syria) is worse than the status quo?

I'm tired of my countrymen fighting, and dying in, other peoples' civil wars... and the whole world giving us crap about it.  Don't weep for SOMEONE (i.e. America) to DO SOMETHING (i.e. send in troops) and then get all pissy when it's not all sunshine and roses.

Intervening now, before one side falters, just ensures a protracted conflict.  Let them fight it out, provide support and containment, and take it slow.


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## AWP (Nov 29, 2016)

I just wish we'd go in one direction or the other. This half-in, half-out nonsense has to stop. Finish it or leave.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 29, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I just wish we'd go in one direction or the other. This half-in, half-out nonsense has to stop. Finish it or leave.



That's what your mom... oh we're being serious.

Yeah brother I agree.  I think you have more time on the ground in "those kind" of conflict areas than any of the rest of us.  We're not going "all in," and we're losing big because of it.


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## Marine0311 (Nov 29, 2016)

My view is that of the one where we bomb them all.:-"


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## Etype (Nov 29, 2016)

We don't have a desired endstate for the Middle East, period.

The State Dept needs to outline some sort of country strategy for Syria that doesn't look like the failures of Iraq and Afghanistan, then maybe we should talk about committing to the ISIS fight.

eta- Or the epic failures in Egypt or Libya.


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## CQB (Nov 30, 2016)

...but not Tunisia & the Ennahda Party which the entire world seems to have missed, due to its success. (It doesn't fit the general narrative).
The trend, nay strategy of allowing the locals to do it themselves is prudent, backed by western training and it looks to be working.
After the shooting war is over what then? Nation building takes a lot longer and is a slower process. After a nation has been engaged in some fracas or other as an occupying or humanitarian force, it's not enough for the assisting force or nation to throw a new administration the keys & say, "All yours, have a nice day!" It may well be the lasting lesson learnt as a hegemon for if there's no structure to build on, democratic or similar flavour, it isn't really going to work, there's the distinct possibility of a repeat performance.
Syria to me is interesting as Assad is really for me the only one who put up a fight, most leaders in the Arab Spring cut & ran. If there was an insurrection in your own country wouldn't you be obliged to suppress it? Rebels opposing the regime...they're Islamists for the most part not the outnumbered Star Wars good guys. Assad has played a deft hand (or is it his brother, the general), not going after ISIS, leaving that one to others as it makes him look like the answer.


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## Etype (Nov 30, 2016)

CQB said:


> Syria to me is interesting as Assad is really for me the only one who put up a fight, most leaders in the Arab Spring cut & ran. If there was an insurrection in your own country wouldn't you be obliged to suppress it? Rebels opposing the regime...


We do seem to blinded support the revolutionaries, in every country EXCEPT IRAN- which is where we should've supported them before they were suppressed.

We have the beatnik/Aulinsky/radicals in office who seem to think revolution=good, government=bad.  Hope and change I guess.

Eta- Additionally, we rally behind thug governments like in South Sudan and paint them to be the noble little people who have been picked on by the big bullies (Shia govt in Iraq!).


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## CQB (Nov 30, 2016)

Agreed on the rebel issue. On reflection an NGO reporting on deaths & injury by whatever means muddies the waters, as it's a body count which was an issue in Vietnam & gave an incorrect picture of what was occurring.
If it's reported that there's deaths in east Alleppo, the rebel area, it's emotive, that isn't to say it isn't accurate or valuable information but it can muddy the waters, and the finger pointing commences in the public sphere. 
Similar reporting occurs regarding failing or failed states & a mea culpa here, I was corrected some time ago by brother Mara on an East African issue which I then looked into a little more thoroughly.


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## Etype (Nov 30, 2016)

@CQB
Agreed.
We can't hold Syria, Libya, or whoever to a Five Eye standard of warfare- they simply don't have the means to do so.

That being said, this shouldn't mean they aren't allowed to defend themselves or suppress rebellions.


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## Dienekes (Dec 1, 2016)

CQB said:


> Nation building takes a lot longer and is a slower process. After a nation has been engaged in some fracas or other as an occupying or humanitarian force, it's not enough for the assisting force or nation to throw a new administration the keys & say, "All yours, have a nice day!" It may well be the lasting lesson learnt as a hegemon for if there's no structure to build on, democratic or similar flavour, it isn't really going to work, there's the distinct possibility of a repeat performance.



^This. Establishing a new system capable of governing itself is incredibly messy in the best of circumstances. Imagine if today's technology were available just after the Revolutionary War. We were weak as hell, and our first system failed in less than 6 years. Luckily transportation across the Atlantic in that time was a logistical nightmare, or we would have been easy pickings. Then, we were steadily in conflict for the next century until we eventually had our own Civil War, and then we fought in even more conflicts while dealing with strikes, depressions, hippies etc. Today, quite a few militaries are capable of traveling across the world to deliver a shitload of firepower in a matter of hours rendering that fortuitous sort of isolation impossible and exploiting even the smallest conflict that much more possible.

Domestically, we've had a laundry list of problems that could have been exploited throughout the years like many large protests and internal movements or even turn in the Civil War. Hell, we had Congressman beat a Senator within an inch of his life on the Senate floor. Just search parliamentary fights on youtube and you get enough to make you wonder if we're the exception or we just have pussy representatives. This from supposedly established states recognized in the international system for decades or even centuries. To think that establishing a new system, which has proven to be a titanic feat, in a region that has a culture so fundamentally different from ours and is unbelievably wrought with conflict won't take a lifetime is the very epitome of hubris and ignorance.


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## AWP (Dec 1, 2016)

Dienekes said:


> ^This. Establishing a new system capable of governing itself is incredibly messy in the best of circumstances. Imagine if today's technology were available just after the Revolutionary War. We were weak as hell, and our first system failed in less than 6 years. Luckily transportation across the Atlantic in that time was a logistical nightmare, or we would have been easy pickings. Then, we were steadily in conflict for the next century until we eventually had our own Civil War, and then we fought in even more conflicts while dealing with strikes, depressions, hippies etc. Today, quite a few militaries are capable of traveling across the world to deliver a shitload of firepower in a matter of hours rendering that fortuitous sort of isolation impossible and exploiting even the smallest conflict that much more possible.
> 
> Domestically, we've had a laundry list of problems that could have been exploited throughout the years like many large protests and internal movements or even turn in the Civil War. Hell, we had Congressman beat a Senator within an inch of his life on the Senate floor. Just search parliamentary fights on youtube and you get enough to make you wonder if we're the exception or we just have pussy representatives. This from supposedly established states recognized in the international system for decades or even centuries. To think that establishing a new system, which has proven to be a titanic feat, in a region that has a culture so fundamentally different from ours and is unbelievably wrought with conflict won't take a lifetime is the very epitome of hubris and ignorance.



I am drunk and this is an amazing post. Nicely done. People have no idea of how fragile we were for decades and decades.


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## CQB (Dec 1, 2016)

Dienekes said:


> ^This. Establishing a new system capable of governing itself is incredibly messy in the best of circumstances. Imagine if today's technology were available just after the Revolutionary War. We were weak as hell, and our first system failed in less than 6 years. Luckily transportation across the Atlantic in that time was a logistical nightmare, or we would have been easy pickings. Then, we were steadily in conflict for the next century until we eventually had our own Civil War, and then we fought in even more conflicts while dealing with strikes, depressions, hippies etc. Today, quite a few militaries are capable of traveling across the world to deliver a shitload of firepower in a matter of hours rendering that fortuitous sort of isolation impossible and exploiting even the smallest conflict that much more possible.
> 
> Domestically, we've had a laundry list of problems that could have been exploited throughout the years like many large protests and internal movements or even turn in the Civil War. Hell, we had Congressman beat a Senator within an inch of his life on the Senate floor. Just search parliamentary fights on youtube and you get enough to make you wonder if we're the exception or we just have pussy representatives. This from supposedly established states recognized in the international system for decades or even centuries. To think that establishing a new system, which has proven to be a titanic feat, in a region that has a culture so fundamentally different from ours and is unbelievably wrought with conflict won't take a lifetime is the very epitome of hubris and ignorance.



I'd have to agree, one of my lecturers, an ex-officer was given the job of explaining and teaching democratic principles to a mob of ME folks. They all were a little incredulous as how it worked. 
The US system of electoral colleges is different to ours, which is a first past the post system but both a democratic: welcome to the big league, there's no one definite solution or finite model to government.


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## benroliver (Dec 14, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> "The bullet casings are hitting us!"
> "God is great!"
> 
> LMFAO



LMFAO I am reading through this thread while eating breakfast and read your post as soon as I hit that part of the video spit my coffee out all over my screen


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## benroliver (Dec 14, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> I'm glad we're not more involved on the ground in Syria or Iraq.
> 
> I'll be honest and say the only reason I care at all about Iraqis and Syrians getting killed in Iraq and Syria is because of the potential spillage over into US interests.  We're not willing to do the kinds of things it would take to end the fighting in either location, which would include massive civilian casualties, a tremendous expenditure of money (that we do't have), and an occupation of large swathes of foreign land by US troops (which the whole world would give us shit over).  At the end of the day it's not a question of capability, it's a question of will.  We can't want it more than they do.  Millions of military-aged men fled Syria and Iraq and went to Europe, Turkey, and other locations across the globe.  We've offered to train them and send them back.  How many did we get, at last count?  Something like literally six?  They don't want to fight for their country, why should I go fight for it, especially when the alternative (radical Sunnis in charge in Syria) is worse than the status quo?
> 
> ...



I wish I could like this post a thousand times.  My opinion doesn't matter  but this is exactly how I feel right now after reading through this thread.


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## Etype (Dec 14, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Don't weep for SOMEONE (i.e. America) to DO SOMETHING (i.e. send in troops) and then get all pissy when it's not all sunshine and roses.


To roughly quote Rush Limbaugh-
The US military is the best in the world at killing people and breaking things, you can't ask for its help then be upset when it kills people and breaks things.


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## Marauder06 (Dec 14, 2016)

I should have added to that statement, "...especially if you're not willing to go "do something" yourself." 

Many of my friends are up in arms about Aleppo, wondering why "we" aren't doing something.  Well, I'm not eager to go out and start "doing something" because I've already seen how that movie ends.  If you feel so strongly about it, I'm happy to refer you to a good Army recruiter or a mercenary outfit, or if pewpewpew isn't your thing, there are dozens of NGOs on the ground doing good work in the region.  And in the meantime, maybe you find a way to motivate all those MAM refugees living fat and happy in Europe to go back and fight for their country.  Because I'm no longer in that business.


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## benroliver (Dec 14, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> I should have added to that statement, "...especially if you're not willing to go "do something" yourself."
> 
> Many of my friends are up in arms about Aleppo, wondering why "we" aren't doing something.  Well, I'm not eager to go out and start "doing something" because I've already seen how that movie ends.  If you feel so strongly about it, I'm happy to refer you to a good Army recruiter or a mercenary outfit, or if pewpewpew isn't your thing, there are dozens of NGOs on the ground doing good work in the region.  And in the meantime, maybe you find a way to motivate all those MAM refugees living fat and happy in Europe to go back and fight for their country.  Because I'm no longer in that business.



Seems like damned if you do, damned if you don't.


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## Etype (Dec 14, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> ...find a way to motivate all those MAM refugees living fat and happy in Europe to go back and fight for their country...


Marauder06 2020- vote early, vote often.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 15, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> I should have added to that statement, "...especially if you're not willing to go "do something" yourself."
> 
> Many of my friends are up in arms about Aleppo, wondering why "we" aren't doing something.  Well, I'm not eager to go out and start "doing something" because I've already seen how that movie ends.  If you feel so strongly about it, I'm happy to refer you to a good Army recruiter or a mercenary outfit, or if pewpewpew isn't your thing, there are dozens of NGOs on the ground doing good work in the region.  And in the meantime, maybe you find a way to motivate all those MAM refugees living fat and happy in Europe to go back and fight for their country.  Because I'm no longer in that business.



I've posted a few times in the past that I think our strategy should be, PID terrorism networks, hit them hard where they may be found and get the fuck out (Counterterrorism, etc). Although I know that is not always practical throughout the world, where possible I prefer the concept over committing ground forces for occupation style world police operations. Obviously this would exclude much of the SOF missions with regards to FID and UW. 

I firmly believe conventional forces (with regards to Army ground forces) should be reserved for conventional warfare the like of Desert Shield/Storm and quick operations the likes of Urgent Fury and Just Cause. Let the Marines do their thing with regards to expeditionary missions, let SOF do their mission's and leave the large scale forces for the "we are going to come smash your shit" mission.

In other words, use the right tool for the right job, and with agreement to both your statements, stay out of other nations problems, whenever and wherever possible.  Especially the likes of Syria and Iraq.


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 15, 2016)

Punitive style expeditions have their purpose, we seem to have forgotten that.



Marauder06 said:


> I should have added to that statement, "...especially if you're not willing to go "do something" yourself."
> 
> Many of my friends are up in arms about Aleppo, wondering why "we" aren't doing something.  Well, I'm not eager to go out and start "doing something" because I've already seen how that movie ends.  If you feel so strongly about it, I'm happy to refer you to a good Army recruiter or a mercenary outfit, or if pewpewpew isn't your thing, there are dozens of NGOs on the ground doing good work in the region.  And in the meantime, maybe you find a way to motivate all those MAM refugees living fat and happy in Europe to go back and fight for their country.  Because I'm no longer in that business.



Because we shouldn't have been mucking around there in the first place.  War is hell, fighting in Syria just to fight is the dumbest of things I've heard.  Syria may not be a friend, but Assad ain't trying to hit us anywhere.


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## CDG (Dec 15, 2016)

I don't disagree with an isolationist strategy when it comes to foreign affairs.  I don't believe we have a responsibility to fight other countries' battles for them, or to be a world police force.  That being said, there is always a pull from seeing atrocities committed that makes you want to "do something".  I am still working out exactly what my opinion is on this article, but I found it to be a good read,

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...immelman-images-of-aleppo.html?ref=world&_r=0


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 15, 2016)

CDG said:


> I don't disagree with an isolationist strategy when it comes to foreign affairs.  I don't believe we have a responsibility to fight other countries' battles for them, or to be a world police force.  That being said, there is always a pull from seeing atrocities committed that makes you want to "do something".  I am still working out exactly what my opinion is on this article, but I found it to be a good read,
> 
> http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...immelman-images-of-aleppo.html?ref=world&_r=0



It's a pretty good read.  I don't think we should be isolationists, but I also do not think we need to execute "police-actions" all across the globe either.  We cannot continue to waste blood and treasure that goes against our grand-strategy in a multi-polar war.  Our Foreign Policy needs to be a concerted effort, and to an extent needs continuity from President to President.

What should our foreign policy be?  Jocko Willink says it pretty simply: Strength.  What does that require though?  It requires a ready force, prepared to execute punitive expeditions, an active duty force-structure that allows for rapid expansion with the call-up of professional reserve forces.  But that is for another topic.

Back to the article, I would caution American journalists from attempting to bait the public to continuously call their Representative or Senator to force action upon a President.  As a country we are not good at mobilizing "national thought", that is probably a good thing.  But someone needs to explain to me coherently how replacing Assad with a Democratically-Elected government makes sense.  It seems our appetite for sending troops down range always gets real high, but our stomach for conflict keeps shrinking.  I can tell you that what we did in Afghanistan and Iraq was an utter failure when compared to the two models of Germany and Japan and then a third with South Korea.  If we do not execute our long duration Wars as "Wars of Survival" we are doomed to fail.  What did those conflicts take?  Political Will that "tolerated" the firebombing of Dresden and Tokyo...were the targets of military importance?  Probably.  The models of Germany, Japan, and Korea required massive "constablury" forces and 50 years of Post-War forward positioned forces  The Japanese Parliament was pretty much controlled by the CIA for 20 years once they returned to home-rule.  Replacing Assad just because he's a bad guy is not in the interests of us.  Reducing the influence of Islamists and eradicating groups like ISIS are in our interests.  Just like Rome was rebuilt, just like Washington was rebuilt, just like Atlanta and Petersburg (VA) were rebuilt, just like Tokyo and Berlin were rebuilt, so will Aleppo when this thing is over.

Berlin Reichstag 1945-
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-uMOQMMz2b.../4Ys0FVIIGxA/s1600/Reichstag+Berlin,+1945.jpg

Bundestag Nowish-
http://c8.alamy.com/comp/DGX33H/aer...atz-der-republik-square-government-DGX33H.jpg

So as I've stated before, I don't think we should be doing a damn thing in Syria except for sending food and medical supplies via NGO routes.  Rant over.


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## Etype (Dec 16, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Replacing Assad just because he's a bad guy is not in the interests of us.  Reducing the influence of Islamists and eradicating groups like ISIS are in our interests.


Unfortunately, once we become involved (and sometimes before) we try to impose our moral/legal/ethical standards on all parties involved.

It's a great opportunity for a moral absolutism discussion.


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## Yosemite (Dec 17, 2016)

Unfortunately, I believe we are still involved in the middle east because of our obligation to protect OPEC nations. That's why we ignore the atrocities that occur in Saudi Arabia but not the ones in Iraq/Syria. We are a world police force to protect our oil, not to protect innocent people from Islamic terrorists.


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## Etype (Dec 17, 2016)

Fliehr13 said:


> Unfortunately, I believe we are still involved in the middle east because of our obligation to protect OPEC nations. That's why we ignore the atrocities that occur in Saudi Arabia but not the ones in Iraq/Syria. We are a world police force to protect our oil, not to protect innocent people from Islamic terrorists.


What would we do to Saudi Arabia? Should we go to war with them? Do you have an appetite for that? While we're at it, we might as well go to war with China, North Korea, and Iran for their human rights atrocities as well.


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## Marauder06 (Dec 17, 2016)

Fliehr13 said:


> Unfortunately, I believe we are still involved in the middle east because of our obligation to protect OPEC nations. That's why we ignore the atrocities that occur in Saudi Arabia but not the ones in Iraq/Syria. We are a world police force to protect our oil, not to protect innocent people from Islamic terrorists.



We have no real obligation to protect OPEC nations just because they're in OPEC.  Iran is an OPEC nation.  So is Venezuela.  So is Libya, Ecuador, and Gabon.  Focusing on OPEC is myopic.  I agree we are involved in the area because the Middle East is strategically and economically significant to our national interests.  Protecting "innocent people" who aren't Americans is way, way down the list of national priorities, as it should be.


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 17, 2016)

Fliehr13 said:


> Unfortunately, I believe we are still involved in the middle east because of our obligation to protect OPEC nations. That's why we ignore the atrocities that occur in Saudi Arabia but not the ones in Iraq/Syria. We are a world police force to protect our oil, not to protect innocent people from Islamic terrorists.


The idea that we need Saudi for her oil needs to be smashed into oblivion.  This isn't 1975.  We need Saudi and some of those other ME countries for one reason...controlling the market price of oil  Hell, once fracking costs go way down...it's not going to matter if oil goes back to $30/barrel, because although our prices won't be their $10/barrel to produce, we'll be about $20/barrel.


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## Yosemite (Dec 17, 2016)

Etype said:


> What would we do to Saudi Arabia? Should we go to war with them? Do you have an appetite for that? While we're at it, we might as well go to war with China, North Korea, and Iran for their human rights atrocities as well.


I guess I didn't really articulate my thoughts very well. I do not think we should go to war or get involved with any conflict with Saudi Arabia. I was not trying to give a just reason to do so. I am saying that we can't because we are obligated to give them military protection and weapons because of our deal with OPEC. That is why we look the other way when they atrocious acts.



Marauder06 said:


> We have no real obligation to protect OPEC nations just because they're in OPEC.  Iran is an OPEC nation.  So is Venezuela.  So is Libya, Ecuador, and Gabon.  Focusing on OPEC is myopic.  I agree we are involved in the area because the Middle East is strategically and economically significant to our national interests.  Protecting "innocent people" who aren't Americans is way, way down the list of national priorities, as it should be.


Agreed. But OPEC must make all of their oil transactions with USD. If an OPEC nations tries to sell their oil in other currencies like Saddam or Gaddafi tried to do, it would have a huge negative impact on our economy and the USD. So we have to give those OPEC nations an incentive to continue selling in USD; one incentive is offering protection and arms. IMHO of course.



ThunderHorse said:


> The idea that we need Saudi for her oil needs to be smashed into oblivion.  This isn't 1975.  We need Saudi and some of those other ME countries for one reason...controlling the market price of oil  Hell, once fracking costs go way down...it's not going to matter if oil goes back to $30/barrel, because although our prices won't be their $10/barrel to produce, we'll be about $20/barrel.


I believe we do sir. We don't need the actual oil per se, but we need the benefits of the petro dollar to keep our economy stable. We have dug ourselves into such a large hole with the petro dollar system that once it either collapses or we try to reverse it, we will have a significant financial crisis on our hands.

Preparing for the Collapse of the Petrodollar System 
Long read, but worth it if you are interested.


----------



## Etype (Dec 17, 2016)

Fliehr13 said:


> Agreed. But OPEC must make all of their oil transactions with USD. If an OPEC nations tries to sell their oil in other currencies like Saddam or Gaddafi tried to do, it would have a huge negative impact on our economy and the USD. So we have to give those OPEC nations an incentive to continue selling in USD; one incentive is offering protection and arms. IMHO of course.


GEN Haftar now controls most Libyan oil, have you researched him?

Hint- we chose NOT to endorse him as the next legitimate leader of Libya.

I find this to be particularly convincing evidence AGAINST OPEC international policy conspiracies.

Additionally, we were in no hurry to return Mosul and Bayji to Iraqi hands, they were the #1 and 2 producers of Iraqi oil.



Fliehr13 said:


> I believe we do sir. We don't need the actual oil per se, but we need the benefits of the petro dollar to keep our economy stable. We have dug ourselves into such a large hole with the petro dollar system that once it either collapses or we try to reverse it, we will have a significant financial crisis on our hands.
> 
> Preparing for the Collapse of the Petrodollar System
> Long read, but worth it if you are interested.


Did you base this whole argument on this article?


----------



## Yosemite (Dec 17, 2016)

Etype said:


> GEN Haftar now controls most Libyan oil, have you researched him?
> 
> Hint- we chose NOT to endorse him as the next legitimate leader of Libya.
> 
> ...



I have not researched him but will definitely look into it. Thank you for the insight.  

I did not. A month or two ago I did a few weeks of researching on the topic and read countless articles and watched countless videos for both sides of the argument. I decided I was worrying too much about something not in my control and decided to drop it. I just found that article was the easiest to understand and laid out the most important points on the matter.

Once again, these are mostly opinion based because I know a lot of people that know about the issue are have split opinions.


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 24, 2016)

Jihadi grinches trying to steal Christmas?  From the State Dept:

“Credible information indicates the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL or Da’esh), al-Qa’ida, and their affiliates continue to plan terrorist attacks in Europe, with a focus on the upcoming holiday season and associated events."


----------



## Etype (Dec 24, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Jihadi grinches trying to steal Christmas?  From the State Dept:
> 
> “Credible information indicates the Islamic State of Iraq and the Levant (ISIL or Da’esh), al-Qa’ida, and their affiliates continue to plan terrorist attacks in Europe, with a focus on the upcoming holiday season and associated events."
> 
> View attachment 17525


Trying to shake up Christmas? Religious safe spacers???

I always knew Abu Baker was a SJW.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 24, 2016)

Fliehr13 said:


> I believe we do sir. We don't need the actual oil per se, but we need the benefits of the petro dollar to keep our economy stable. We have dug ourselves into such a large hole with the petro dollar system that once it either collapses or we try to reverse it, we will have a significant financial crisis on our hands.
> 
> Preparing for the Collapse of the Petrodollar System
> Long read, but worth it if you are interested.


Although the theory of the Petrodollar system has been around for a long time, I don't believe in it.  It's not what currency it's traded in.  It's the flow of it.  How much oil do we have in storage, how much gasoline do we have in storage.  The Oil market's factors are Oil Inventories, Rig Counts, Gasoline Inventories, Refinery Capacity, Pipelines on/offline, fires etc.  

The value of our currency is all based on trade deficits and not oil.  But that's just my opinion.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 25, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Although the theory of the Petrodollar system has been around for a long time, I don't believe in it.  It's not what currency it's traded in.  It's the flow of it.  How much oil do we have in storage, how much gasoline do we have in storage.  The Oil market's factors are Oil Inventories, Rig Counts, Gasoline Inventories, Refinery Capacity, Pipelines on/offline, fires etc.
> 
> There are two standing agreements between the United States and OPEC, 1971 and 1973, that oil will be priced and traded in the USD. Petrodollar is a very real thing, and was the only way to secure our currency after Nixon took us off the gold standard in 1971.
> 
> The value of our currency is all based on trade deficits and not oil.  But that's just my opinion.



It's not so much the trade deficit as it is supply and demand. The demand of the USD, and the supply availability of the USD, sets the worth of the USD. When OPEC set a price in USD and than requires the transaction to be traded in USD, it not only requires our dollars to go out for those purchases, it requires other country's to maintain a supply of USD for their own needs. When everyone requires our USD, it allows us to run a high trading deficit. However, when country's start to dump our dollars to revalue or manipulate their own countries currency the USD go's down in worth, while the host countries currency will go up in worth.


----------



## Etype (Dec 25, 2016)

Does the transaction itself have to occur using USD? Or is the current USD equivalent in whatever currency?


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 25, 2016)

Etype said:


> Does the transaction itself have to occur using USD? Or is the current USD equivalent in whatever currency?



I don't believe it is mandatory for all oil to be traded in USD, there are other currencies that are used, such as the euros. Most countries do have to trade in USD, to include all types of other imported goods. I'll have to research on it, but if my memory is right, most of our "axis of evil" list are all countries who attempted to trade oil in currencies other than the USD.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 25, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> It's not so much the trade deficit as it is supply and demand. The demand of the USD, and the supply availability of the USD, sets the worth of the USD. When OPEC set a price in USD and than requires the transaction to be traded in USD, it not only requires our dollars to go out for those purchases, it requires other country's to maintain a supply of USD for their own needs. When everyone requires our USD, it allows us to run a high trading deficit. However, when country's start to dump our dollars to revalue or manipulate their own countries currency the USD go's down in worth, while the host countries currency will go up in worth.



There is only a finite amount of money, foreign countries aren't buying oil in dollars.  The amount of our currency that is in foreign cash reserve banks that would be required is astronomical.

Our trade deficits are a huge problem which is why, to be honest, if the European Economic Community breaks up, we will get to have a ton of cheap fun in Europe.


----------



## Dienekes (Dec 25, 2016)

Trade relations mean nothing without context. What about a country with a trade surplus that has done so artificially simply to collect enough tax dollars in order to prevent defaulting on a loan. Trade deficits are good political talking points, but they arent necessarily good or bad. It requires a great deal of context to classify it as either one.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 25, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> There is only a finite amount of money, foreign countries aren't buying oil in dollars.  The amount of our currency that is in foreign cash reserve banks that would be required is astronomical.
> 
> Our trade deficits are a huge problem which is why, to be honest, if the European Economic Community breaks up, we will get to have a ton of cheap fun in Europe.




This article explains a bit of it.

Non-Dollar Trading Is Killing the Petrodollar -- And the Foundation of U.S.-Saudi Policy in the Middle East | The Huffington Post

This is from the federal reserve and explains how much of out currency is outside of our country. I'd hardly call it finite, especially on the context of if those dollars were dumped in the currency exchange market. Keep in mind this was from 20 years ago.

https://www.federalreserve.gov/pubs/bulletin/1996/1096lead.pdf

As for trade deficits, it's been a great thing for the consumer economy of inexpensive products to the American middle class. It is also the down fall of the middle class with regards to manufacturing jobs. We think things are expensive now, vehicles, appliances house hold goods. Wait until you have to pay that worker $20+ an hour and another $10 an hour in benifits. It will be great to see Americans working again, but it's also  going to drive the price of consumer products through the roof. Basically it's a trade off. We can have a lazy society on tons of government handouts because we can print money at will (currently) and people can pretty much buy what they want. Trade deficits allowed us to grow our middle class and improve our low income quality of life at a speed unseen in history. It's also killing the middle class and forcing dependency at a speed unimaginable. Our poor are far better off than most middle class around the world. Yet almost half our population is on some form of government assistance.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 25, 2016)

I would prefer people working and not being lazy as shit.  But that's a discussion for another day.  RIP Alenxandrov Ensemble, a video to commemorate them:


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 26, 2016)

Syrians in Aleppo celebrated Christmas for the first time in five years:

http://nypost.com/2016/12/26/syrians-celebrate-christmas-amid-aleppo-cathedral-ruins/

Iraqi Christians celebrated Christmas in Bartella:


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jan 5, 2017)

Kerry's Tell all book is going to be awesome: John Kerry blames Britain for derailing Obama's plan for intervention in Syria


----------



## Grunt (Jan 5, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Kerry's Tell all book is going to be awesome: John Kerry blames Britain for derailing Obama's plan for intervention in Syria



Personally, I get tired of hearing what is supposed to be the greatest nation on Earth blaming others for their actions or inactions.

We need to start acting like the greatest nation on Earth and own our actions!

Now...back to my ever increasing isolationist world....


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jan 6, 2017)

Ash Carter, I've expected a lot better of him and he has just been a disappoint: Ash Carter Says Putin Is Making It Harder for U.S. to Work With Russia


----------



## Etype (Jan 6, 2017)

It seems to me we are entering into an unnecessary second cold war. What is the end game with Russia in all this recent bickering? Is this all an extension of election scapegoating?

If Russia is working to prop up Assad, then they are fighting ISIS. Russian bombs falling on ISIS are a bad thing? This world peace police act has gone too far.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 1, 2017)

I feel like we have already had some discussion about this guy:

Body of Briton Ryan Lock 'recovered' after fighting Islamic State - BBC News

But I could not find it. Anyway, here is the follow up on his death.  Brutal decision- but likely beats being captured by ISIS.

Briton Ryan Lock 'killed himself' to avoid IS capture - BBC News


----------



## pardus (Feb 2, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I feel like we have already had some discussion about this guy:
> 
> Body of Briton Ryan Lock 'recovered' after fighting Islamic State - BBC News
> 
> ...



Good for him. Smart choice IMO.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 2, 2017)

pardus said:


> Good for him. Smart choice IMO.



Agreed


----------



## Mac_NZ (Feb 3, 2017)

A certain poem by Kipling still rings trues, just change Afghanistan's plains for Aleppo.


----------



## Etype (Feb 3, 2017)

pardus said:


> Good for him. Smart choice IMO.





Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Agreed


Or maybe he could've died fighting, the reason he was there to begin with.

Things must be drastically different in Great Britain if suicide when faced by the enemy is described as bravery- but I don't think that's the case in their military.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 3, 2017)

I'd much rather punch my own ticket, than be, A)  torchered to death on YouTube, or B) allow my family to see me get my head cut off on YouTube. 

Totally disagree on this one. They apparently put up a hell of a fight, but lost. That happens in gunfights, but knowing the fight is lost and knowing the end game, Is smarter than sufferings or allowing your family to see it.


FYI: back in the day we had an agreement in my platoon,  nobody went home crispy alive, and nobody was allowed to be caught slipping.


----------



## Etype (Feb 3, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I'd much rather punch my own ticket, than...
> 
> --------------------------------
> 
> FYI: back in the day we had an agreement in my platoon,  nobody went home crispy alive, and nobody was allowed to be caught slipping.


I'd rather fire my last bullet at the enemy than at myself, under any circumstances.

As for the second part, I have no idea what that means. 

If a US Service Member killed himself in the face of the enemy, I'd argue that to be treason.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 3, 2017)

In the spirit of clarification, Lock was not a British Soldier:

_"Ryan Lock, who was a chef, had no military experience before travelling to join the Kurdish armed fighting forces known as the YPG in August."

_


----------



## Etype (Feb 3, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> In the spirit of clarification, Lock was not a British Soldier


I threw in the piece about their military to make that distinction, I was definitely unclear.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 3, 2017)

> Mr Lock's body had been in the hands of IS militants.



In the hands of militants... gunshot wound under the chin... sounds more to me like surrendered/got captured and then got murdered than it does that he killed himself.  Seems more like Pesh myth-making to me.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Feb 3, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> In the hands of militants... gunshot wound under the chin... sounds more to me like surrendered/got captured and then got murdered than it does that he killed himself.  Seems more like Pesh myth-making to me.



Some people dont have solid plans for final solutions if everything literally goes wrong in the face of an uncontrolled but horrific death.  Chin shot is one of them, but still a somewhat quick way out if you do it right.  I would have had a demolitions option, personally.  Take some with me in an instant.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 15, 2017)

Unexpectedly received a Francis Fukuyama book in the mail today.

I don't like Francis Fukuyama. (page 89 or so of this thread if you don't get the reference)

There is only one person who would have sent me a Francis Fukuyama book I have't already read.

;)  Thank you @IlDuce, this was really cool and I look forward to reading it.


----------



## Il Duce (Feb 15, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> Unexpectedly received a Francis Fukuyama book in the mail today.
> 
> I don't like Francis Fukuyama. (page 89 or so of this thread if you don't get the reference)
> 
> ...



The message was supposed to be 'I know where you live' - you can read it if you want I guess...


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 15, 2017)

Il Duce said:


> The message was supposed to be 'I know where you live' - you can read it if you want I guess...



Aka. Close your blinds...


----------



## Gunz (Feb 15, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> Aka. Close your blinds...



And pull up your pants...


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 15, 2017)

Il Duce said:


> The message was supposed to be 'I know where you live' - you can read it if you want I guess...


hahahahaha.  Noted.



Ocoka One said:


> And pull up your pants...


Wait, what?  How did you know?  :-/


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Feb 15, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> Unexpectedly received a Francis Fukuyama book in the mail today.
> 
> I don't like Francis Fukuyama. (page 89 or so of this thread if you don't get the reference)
> 
> ...



Is it a pop-up book....?:-"


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 15, 2017)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Is it a pop-up book....?:-"


More like a "prop up" book; like I'm going to "prop" it up in my office where people can see it and think I'm smart like Il Duce, and just not ever read it.

That's what I did with most of the books SF Med and Pardus sent me.


----------



## Salt USMC (Feb 22, 2017)

I dunno.  Fukuyama was definitely en vogue in the early 2000's, but he along with Samuel Huntington have fallen out of favor.  Don't get me wrong - it was a smart-sounding thesis for the 90's.  Democracy was the apex of humanity and global capitalism would solve everything.  We solved history, hooray!

As you can see, that's clearly not the case today.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 22, 2017)

Huntington falling out of favor is news to me.  I can't think of much (anything?) of his that has been fundamentally disproven, unlike Fukuyama.


----------



## CQB (Feb 23, 2017)

Huntingtons analysis of the population bubble in Muslim countries, the better education of the same young population & their lack of opportunity certainly hit the mark with me. The two factors above also coincided with the rise of the Internet. I think we all know where that went. 
Initially I was a Fukuyama sceptic, but he's pretty good on most topics &  shouldn't be discounted.


----------



## Vansickle (Mar 5, 2017)

Here's the link.

US deploys armored forces in northern Syrian town - The Boston Globe

Looks like some Motorized Infantry Battalion probably. The article is not specific.

Maybe some M1126 Strykers there, can't tell with the picture in the article.

Thoughts?


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 5, 2017)

Vansickle said:


> Thoughts?



What are yours?


----------



## Vansickle (Mar 5, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> What are yours?



I'm intrigued as I haven't heard that much about operators in Syria.


----------



## AWP (Mar 5, 2017)

Vansickle said:


> I'm intrigued as I haven't heard that much about operators in Syria.



There's a reason for that.

With that said, did a new unit just show up or were vehicles sent for the existing guys on the ground? My guess is the latter so this is much ado about nothing. Even if it were the former this is long overdue.

ETA: merged threads


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 5, 2017)

It's long overdue we left.  Mission creep.  Also, apparently those photos came with grid coordinates from the source I saw.  OPSEC as hell.


----------



## AWP (Mar 7, 2017)

They are for SOF and they were deployed to send several messages, so the deployment was never meant to be a secret or a major escalation of US policy. Much ado about nothing.

US Stryker Deployment To Manbij, Syria Appears To Have Been A Blocking Move


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 7, 2017)

I would say it is an escalation of policy that we have to run around in Strykers and diplomatic cables no longer work.


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 7, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> I would say it is an escalation of policy that we have to run around in Strykers and diplomatic cables no longer work.



With the IED threat both ground and aerial (daesh is using cheap drones with explosives); I wouldn't want to roam around in anything not up armoured with heavy weapons.


----------



## Salt USMC (Mar 8, 2017)

At least one source is saying that it's Rangers.


----------



## AWP (Mar 8, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> At least one source is saying that it's Rangers.



Like the article I linked to in my post? You must have been Comm in a previous life.

:wall:


----------



## Salt USMC (Mar 8, 2017)

AWP said:


> Like the article I linked to in my post? You must have been Comm in a previous life.
> 
> :wall:


C'mon.  That was buried in a correction at the bottom of the article.


----------



## Centermass (Mar 8, 2017)

Funker360 - Nice going........idiots.

Murphy? And SOFREP? Same. His cavalier attitude in response to publishing and posting this article just sent me over the edge.

I guess between the 2 of them, they can decide what's ok to put out there and what isn't. 

He even went back and sanitized quite a few of the comments criticizing him for the same since I first read it. What a guy. 

Jack Murphy | Facebook


----------



## DA SWO (Mar 8, 2017)

Centermass said:


> Funker360 - Nice going........idiots.
> 
> Murphy? And SOFREP? Same. His cavalier attitude in response to publishing and posting this article just sent me over the edge.
> 
> ...


Agreed, but like too.
Metadata can be a bitch.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 8, 2017)

Foreign Policy shift, Trump turned on Backstreet Boys and told the Marines to quit playing games with his heart.

Marines say: Hell yes.

11th MEU's artillery is on the ground in Syria for the Raqqa offensive-Marines have arrived in Syria to fire artillery in the fight for Raqqa

ETA: You know you made it big when you're on FR24


----------



## Gunz (Mar 10, 2017)

Get some 1/4, The China Marines. If I'm correct they're in the last month of their MEU deployment.


----------



## AWP (Mar 23, 2017)

A pretty big move to isolate Raqqa.

US Backed Forces Take Strategic Syrian Dam To Block ISIS From Escaping Raqqa

IS conflict: US airlift backs new assault near Raqqa stronghold - BBC News



> The surprise deployment to the dam was said to have been largely made possible via US airlift capabilities and fire support. Although the number of troops involved in the operation remains unconfirmed, multiple reports put it around 500.


----------



## RackMaster (Apr 1, 2017)

Canadian mission extended until June 30 and teams have now entered Mosul with the Iraqi's.

Canadian special forces taking more active role in Iraq as Liberals extend ISIS mission


----------



## Gunz (Apr 1, 2017)

AWP said:


> A pretty big move to isolate Raqqa.
> 
> US Backed Forces Take Strategic Syrian Dam To Block ISIS From Escaping Raqqa
> 
> IS conflict: US airlift backs new assault near Raqqa stronghold - BBC News



Good. Kill the fuckers.  



RackMaster said:


> Canadian mission extended until June 30 and teams have now entered Mosul with the Iraqi's.
> 
> Canadian special forces taking more active role in Iraq as Liberals extend ISIS mission



Good. Kill the fuckers.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 5, 2017)

A somewhat different perspective on the recent gas attack (?) in Syria:



> What are the facts?
> 
> The fact is, no one knows right now.  Yet that’s not stopping the cries for “someone” (i.e. the US) to “do something!!!” (i.e. intervene militarily).   Our last president was smart enough to not over-commit us in Syria. I hope the current president follows suit.  Here’s why:


----------



## AWP (Apr 5, 2017)

Our last president also said chemical agents were a line in the sand....and then he proceeded to do nothing when the line was repeatedly crossed. No matter our leadership they can't go around and make statements without backing them up because it makes us look weak.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 5, 2017)

Not a chemical strike...but whatever.  Was there an intent to destroy a chemical weapons storage facility, damn right.


----------



## Teufel (Apr 5, 2017)

The problem is that our last president did over commit us. He drew a red line and then didn't do anything when Syria called his bluff. Our nation can't bluff. Our entire deterrence strategy rests on our resolve to employ nuclear weapons. South Korea and Japan are both counting on us to shield them with our nuclear umbrella against the DPRK. Our Eastern European allies rely on us to do the same against Russia. 

President Obama should not have drawn a red line if he wasn't willing to enforce it. It makes us look weak.

I do not think this commitment extends to the past president. The red line is still there but there is a new hand hovering over the red button. There is room to address this using other elements of national power without potentially kicking off WWIII.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 6, 2017)

Teufel said:


> The problem is that our last president did over commit us. He drew a red line and then didn't do anything when Syria called his bluff. ....



It appears our current president might be doubling-down on that mistake.   Trump:  Gas attack "crossed many lines"


----------



## AWP (Apr 6, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> It appears our current president might be doubling-down on that mistake.   Trump:  Gas attack "crossed many lines"



I think Syria's about to take a thumping.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 6, 2017)

We're stupid.

iad tawil on Twitter


----------



## Gunz (Apr 6, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> It appears our current president might be doubling-down on that mistake.   Trump:  Gas attack "crossed many lines"



From the article:

_Trump described the attack as "horrible" and "unspeakable." He faulted Obama for failing to carry through on his "red line" threat and when asked if he had responsibility to respond to the attack, said: "I now have responsibility"._

Every little thing a POTUS says is interpreted by our enemies and allies alike, every little nuance of meaning is dissected. Reagan was an expert in alluding to the hell that might befall anybody who fucks with America, even if he never really said anything specific. Even an off-mike jest, some of which were intentional, could spread fear in foreign capitals. Maybe Trump is starting to learn. One thing is for certain, he's facing a put-up or shut-up moment over the gas attack.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 6, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> From the article:
> 
> _Trump described the attack as "horrible" and "unspeakable." He faulted Obama for failing to carry through on his "red line" threat and when asked if he had responsibility to respond to the attack, said: "I now have responsibility"._
> 
> Every little thing a POTUS says is interpreted by our enemies and allies alike, every little nuance of meaning is dissected. Reagan was an expert in alluding to the hell that might befall anybody who fucks with America, even if he never really said anything specific. Even an off-mike jest, some of which were intentional, could spread fear in foreign capitals. Maybe Trump is starting to learn. One thing is for certain, he's facing a put-up or shut-up moment over the attack on the chemical weapons *depot.*


----------



## Teufel (Apr 6, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> It appears our current president might be doubling-down on that mistake.   Trump:  Gas attack "crossed many lines"


Yikes


----------



## Gunz (Apr 6, 2017)

@ThunderHorse 

Ok, so you're taking the Moscow spin.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 6, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> @ThunderHorse
> 
> Ok, so you're taking the Moscow spin.


Al Qaeda has been in control of Idlib for almost two years.

Supposedly this guy is the source of the report: NHS doctor accused of being part of British jihadi group in Syria

I would claim that he isn't viable.  Add to the fact that the Western media has no sources on the ground.

ETA:  Every time I read this crap in the news, my reaction is: No shit, and why is this being talked about. U.S. Military Drawing Up Options for Syria Response

I'll give the WSJ credit though, they called it a suspected attack.  Again, we need to get out of there.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 6, 2017)

NBC News claiming 24 cruise missiles launched into Syria.  Looking for link....


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 6, 2017)

U.S. Launches Missile Strike on Syria in Response to Gas Attack

We're dumb.


----------



## TLDR20 (Apr 6, 2017)

Should be interesting...

 Speaking Thursday to reporters aboard Air Force One, Trump said of Assad: “He’s there, and I guess he’s running things, so I guess something should happen.”

Our President said that...


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 6, 2017)

So I suppose Trump's Red lines start targeting cycles.

Kind of weird, but we declared war on Imperial Germany 100 years ago today.

ETA: Interesting stuff in here Mattis briefs President Trump on military options against Syrian leader Assad's regime


----------



## 81FO (Apr 6, 2017)

Syrian Airbase where chemical weapons were launched from was targeted.

US launches missiles into Syria in response to chemical weapons attack


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 6, 2017)

Delete


----------



## 81FO (Apr 6, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Iraq and ISIS Discussion



Thanks @Ooh-Rah


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 6, 2017)

I was wondering about this part, found my answer:

_Before the strikes, U.S. military officials said they informed their Russian counterparts of the impending attack. The goal was to avoid any accident involving Russian forces.

Nevertheless, Russia's Deputy U.N. ambassador Vladimir Safronkov warned that any negative consequences from the strikes would be on the "shoulders of those who initiated such a doubtful and tragic enterprise."

The U.S. also notified its partner countries in the region prior to launching the strikes.

U.S. missiles blast Syria base where chem planes took off_


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 6, 2017)

Trump's Statement: http://online.wsj.com/public/resources/documents/trumpsyriastatement.pdf?mod=e2tw


----------



## Salt USMC (Apr 7, 2017)

Honestly, this is probably the best way to respond.  Degrade their CBRN capability, send a strong message, and make sure to let the Russians know to get the hell out of dodge.  Now, if this is the pre-amble for 'Operation Syrian Freedom', that's another story entirely.  Trump campaigned on not getting embroiled in any more MENA conflicts and he's going to piss off a ton of people if he begins a big troop buildup in Syria.


----------



## AWP (Apr 7, 2017)

I tried to explain Syria to my wife. We eventually settled on "Islamic Florida."


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 7, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> Honestly, this is probably the best way to respond.  Degrade their CBRN capability, send a strong message, and make sure to let the Russians know to get the hell out of dodge.  Now, if this is the pre-amble for 'Operation Syrian Freedom', that's another story entirely.  Trump campaigned on not getting embroiled in any more MENA conflicts and he's going to piss off a ton of people if he begins a big troop buildup in Syria.


Well the Army is offering two-year enlistments and huge bonuses for a lot of MOSs...


----------



## Mac_NZ (Apr 7, 2017)

If President Trump is going to get emotional about pictures of children suffering then you guys are going to need a hell of a lot more Tomahawks.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 7, 2017)

Disappointing to say the least, but message sent. Must have been some pretty solid intel to narrow it down to the airbase the chemical weapons came from... with no Russkies killed and very few Syrian soldiers wounded/killed.

We'll see what the world says about it over the next week or two.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 7, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> We'll see what the world says about it over the next week or two.



Posturing, party of Two!

Putin calls US airstrikes on Syria an 'illegal act of aggression'

Putin calls US airstrikes on Syria an 'act of aggression' | Daily Mail Online

To add -

The US used a special military-to-military hotline to warn Russia it was launching an airstrike on a Syrian air base about 30 minutes in advance - but the Trump administration did not ask Moscow for permission. 
*
It is likely Russia alerted the Syrians about the incoming strikes but this has not been confirmed.





*


----------



## AWP (Apr 7, 2017)

I am just totally surprised, shocked even, that the peace-loving leader of Russia would use our actions to justify an escalation of the war.

Syria airstrikes: Russia to suspend airspace deal with US



> Russia announced Friday that it will suspend a deal it made with the United States in 2015 to prevent a mid-air collision over Syria just hours after President Trump announced he authorized a missile attack on an airbase.
> 
> Under the memorandum, signed after Russia launched an air campaign in Syria, Moscow and the U.S. had exchanged information about their flights to avoid incidents in the crowded skies over Syria.
> 
> Russia said it will help Syria strengthen its air defenses after U.S. strike.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Apr 7, 2017)

W


----------



## SpitfireV (Apr 7, 2017)

So what has this actually achieved?


----------



## Gunz (Apr 7, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> So what has this actually achieved?



It has established firmly that President Obama's so-called Red Line in the sand is no longer just empty rhetoric under the Trump administration; it has increased his international credibility and it has made him, at least figuratively, a perceived "defender of the innocent and a punisher of bad guys"... an image that plays well in the notoriously liberal media, which, I notice this morning, seems to be fairly supportive of Trump's decisive response.

*I may be in the minority here, but this is the kind of message that needs to be sent when evil cunts resort to WMDs.*

And @ThunderHorse, I had to disagree with you for these same reasons ^^


----------



## racing_kitty (Apr 7, 2017)

The strike reminds me of Reagan's strike against Libya. Qaddafi fucked around a little, Ronnie dropped a couple dozen missiles on his houses, killed a son, and we didn't hear a peep for years afterwards. 

A show of might may be what's required. Let them see that we are moving towards being the strong horse once again, and perhaps we'll gain some leverage. This isn't a call for invasion, by any means; rather, it's a flexing of muscle to establish credibility of force.


----------



## Centermass (Apr 7, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> So what has this actually achieved?



In my circles, it's known as an "Attention Getter"


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 7, 2017)

So uh...the Russians dispatched a squadron to the Eastern Med. 

BDA is at 20 Syrian planes: Russian warship steams toward US destroyers that launched Syria strikes

@Ocoka at least red lines matter with some people...the massive facepalms I had during the last administration can't be counted on the digits I have.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 7, 2017)

If Russia plans to send their old ass war ships towards a modern USN destroyer, they have lost their fucking minds. I mean like really, a Arleigh Burke class destroyer is a bad motherfucker.


----------



## Grunt (Apr 7, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> If Russia plans to send their old ass war ships towards a modern USN destroyer, they have lost their fucking minds. I mean like really, a Arleigh Burke class destroyer is a bad motherfucker.



Vlad has to posture in some way...let's give him a break. I don't want to see any more pictures of him without a shirt....


----------



## Il Duce (Apr 7, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> It has established firmly that President Obama's so-called Red Line in the sand is no longer just empty rhetoric under the Trump administration; it has increased his international credibility and it has made him, at least figuratively, a perceived "defender of the innocent and a punisher of bad guys"... an image that plays well in the notoriously liberal media, which, I notice this morning, seems to be fairly supportive of Trump's decisive response.
> 
> *I may be in the minority here, but this is the kind of message that needs to be sent when evil cunts resort to WMDs.*
> 
> And @ThunderHorse, I had to disagree with you for these same reasons ^^



In fairness I think President Obama started to go to congress for approval to initiate a bombing campaign (not just cruise missiles) in 2013 but, when the whip started counting votes they weren't there - with something like only 12 Republicans supporting the measure (and Democrats not being universal in support).  So, ultimately I don't think the vote happened and the whole plan was called off - rather than bombing without congressional approval.  I even think President Obama took criticism - if not at the time at least around that time from citizen Trump via twitter for his plans to bomb Syria.

Granted, opinions change over 4 years and definitely over the support/credibility you give to who is in the whitehouse.  I think both parties are always guilty of supporting/opposing things based on who is in the whitehouse but I think some of the 'President Trump is a decisive leader because of this while President Obama was a huge pussy' is brining in a lot more factors/biases than just these actions in Syria.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 7, 2017)

Il Duce said:


> In fairness I think President Obama started to go to congress for approval to initiate a bombing campaign (not just cruise missiles) in 2013 but, when the whip started counting votes they weren't there - with something like only 12 Republicans supporting the measure (and Democrats not being universal in support).  So, ultimately I don't think the vote happened and the whole plan was called off - rather than bombing without congressional approval.  I even think President Obama took criticism - if not at the time at least around that time from citizen Trump via twitter for his plans to bomb Syria.
> 
> Granted, opinions change over 4 years and definitely over the support/credibility you give to who is in the whitehouse.  I think both parties are always guilty of supporting/opposing things based on who is in the whitehouse but I think some of the 'President Trump is a decisive leader because of this while President Obama was a huge pussy' is brining in a lot more factors/biases than just these actions in Syria.



Come on, Obama warned Bashar not to use chemical weapons and Bashar went ahead and did it anyway. Obama did nothing in retaliation. Trump just destroyed 20 plane's of  the Syrian Airforce and shot 59 cruise missiles in retaliation of another Bashar chemical weapons attack.

It's pretty cut and dry sir.

Now to debate if these chemical attacks are false flags to remove Bashar from power, is another debate in it of itself.

The innocent babies! THE BABIES!


----------



## Il Duce (Apr 7, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Come on, Obama warned Bashar not to use chemical weapons and Bashar went ahead and did it anyway. Obama did nothing in retaliation. Trump just destroyed 20 plane's of Syrian Airforce and shot 59 cruise missiles in retaliation of another Bashar chemical weapons attack.
> 
> It's pretty cut and dry sir.
> 
> ...



President Obama went to congress for permission to launch a bombing campaign, didn't have the votes, so cancelled the whole thing.  President Trump fired cruise missiles without asking anybody's permission.  It's definitely cut and dry - I just don't think it's as simple a comparison on toughness/intent.  Probably no clearer dichotomy in styles - especially when non-President Trump was criticizing President Obama pretty intensely over the idea of bombing.  I think it really shows the difference in how President Obama was extremely deliberative and thought a lot about authority/legacy and that kind of thing.  President Trump does not give a fuck about that kind of stuff - or in being consistent.  I think there's an argument to be made for the superiority of one type of executive action (or to my mind somewhere in between) but the difference is definitely stark.

I think President Obama did end up 'doing something' in that he cut a Russia-brokered deal to destroy/dismantle the Syrian chemical weapons program as it stood at the time.  I think it's pretty interesting to look at what the administration thought they were getting/showing with that deal with where we are vis-a-vis Russia now.  I think some Obama administration folks with hindsight may not be as excited about that move in terms of legacy and precedent.


----------



## Centermass (Apr 7, 2017)

This just in:

*RAYTHEON STOCK PRICES ARE UP  *


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 7, 2017)

This is pretty cut and dry.  SAAF bombs a target, we suspect with chemical munitions (haven't seen it), but I did see the video of tomahawks getting launched, nice touch.  Why am I a more apt to believe it was a bombing of an Al Nusra Chemical weapons depot?  Because as I've said, we have no sources on the ground, and haven't had any sources on the ground.  All the information that the Western media publishes about casualty figures comes from SOHR or IS themselves.  Do you want to believe this crap?  I won't.  Give me the damn proof.  We went well past the trust the government threshold awhile ago.

Now back to Trump doing a hopeful one off...that's a fast targeting cycle.  Considering the last guy drew a red line and basically just kept funding and arming jihadis.  It is sort of funny how folks were like: YOU MUST DO SOMETHING...he did something...WHY DID YOU DO IT?

Red Dawn is a documentary...but uh, that's what we're dealing with here, two Nuclear powers on the opposite side in a proxy war over ideals...what we're supporting I don't even know.  Them, secularism and deep water port access.

Can someone break it down for me what supporting any of these rebels actually did for us?  Yeah, the Saudis are Sunnis and hate Alawites, well those Wahhabists are worse.  America First, right?  So how does this put America first and make us safer.


----------



## Blizzard (Apr 7, 2017)

I see it a bit like the new teacher classroom...  the kids will test the teacher to see what they can get away with.   Assad, with Russia's blessing, essentially said let's see how the new guy (Trump) responds to this (we know the old guy blew a lot of smoke).  This new guy has been talking a lot like the old guy with words flying in every direction (to NK, to China, to us, etc.).  I'll test him to see if he's got the cajones to step up and if he just sits on his hands like all the other guys (previous President and other world leaders), maybe we can just fast track an end to this uprising.   BTW, NK and China...watch this.

Well, they got their answer.  The new guy is not the old guy.

The only "issue" (for lack of a better word) that I have is best described in this article posted by @Marauder06 the other day:  #NotOurProblem: Three Reasons Why We're Getting A Little Ahead Of Ourselves On This Latest "Syrian Gassing" Thing

We better be 100% confident that what went down is what we say went down.  Facts matter.  This is where Trump's credibility gets called to the table and why some of the crazy ass accusations over the past couple months become important.  I'm giving him the benefit of doubt right now.  But he better have his shit squared away on this thing.  Pronto.


----------



## Salt USMC (Apr 7, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> This is pretty cut and dry.  SAAF bombs a target, we suspect with chemical munitions (haven't seen it), but I did see the video of tomahawks getting launched, nice touch.  Why am I a more apt to believe it was a bombing of an Al Nusra Chemical weapons depot?  Because as I've said, we have no sources on the ground, and haven't had any sources on the ground.  All the information that the Western media publishes about casualty figures comes from SOHR or IS themselves.  Do you want to believe this crap?  I won't.  Give me the damn proof.  We went well past the trust the government threshold awhile ago.


Nice to see that you're buying the RT line.  The casualty figures, as well as assessment of sarin exposure, are coming from Doctors Without Borders and WHO.  Both of those organizations are notably distinct from IS.

Also, actual chemical weapons experts are saying that the notion of a chemical weapons depot is patently absurd What we know about Syria's chemical weapons - CNN.com


> But Dan Kaszeta, a chemical weapons specialist and managing director of Strongpoint Security, told CNN that the Russian version of events was "highly implausible."
> All the nerve agents used in the Syrian conflict so far have been binary nerve agents, he said, which are mixed from different components within a few days of use. This is done because of the difficulties of handling agents such as Sarin, which has a very short shelf life, he said.
> "Nerve agents are the result of a very expensive, exotic, industrial chemical process -- these are not something you just whip up," he said.
> The idea that the Syrian opposition would be able to build the covert supply chain to make a nerve agent and then would move it around and store it in a warehouse, rather than a bunker, makes no sense, Kaszeta said.
> ...


----------



## AWP (Apr 7, 2017)

AFN's news channel has Chris Matthews on right now and the "Wag the Dog" topic is on. This Syria thing is hilariously sad. I'm laughing through tears.


----------



## Blizzard (Apr 7, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> So uh...the Russians dispatched a squadron to the Eastern Med.
> 
> BDA is at 20 Syrian planes: Russian warship steams toward US destroyers that launched Syria strikes


Let's just pull a page out of the Russian's own playbook with "Rapid Raptor - Phase 2" (my own creation); have a 2 ship flight of F-22's pay a visit over the Admiral Grigorovich tonight.  The Russians don't see or hear them coming but we leave them with a low altitude sonic boom as a present for their efforts as they pass over... Go and show your crazy.

^ Not really but the thought still kind of warms me.  

Reports and BDA photos indicate the runway at Shaayrat was untouched and supposedly two Syrian aircraft departed from it earlier today.


----------



## AWP (Apr 7, 2017)

Blizzard said:


> Reports and BDA photos indicate the runway at Shaayrat was untouched and supposedly two Syrian aircraft departed from it earlier today.



We might be the only country in the world capable of shutting down an airport because of a lost bag, but incapable of shutting one down with 59 cruise missiles.


----------



## Gunz (Apr 8, 2017)

^^^That's funny...and sad at the same time...

But I believe the intention here was more of a shot across the bow as opposed to a rain of death and destruction. A very sensible and shrewd man named Mattis was charged with coming up with the option list, and I could see him recommending this particular course of action. Minimal damage, very few casualties, a tip-off to the Russians (and hence to the Syrians), and no danger to American lives and assets.

The message being:  "Right now you're getting a fireworks show...the next time we put one right up your ass."


----------



## Hillclimb (Apr 8, 2017)

Centermass said:


> In my circles, it's known as an "Attention Getter"



lol. "Good morning. We're here."


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 8, 2017)

"point" Hilary...
aka: "well played Ms. Clinton, well played...."



To add....

There is NOTHING this woman will ever say that I will not be immediately suspect of.  Amazing that I am able to find someone's words who I trust less that Hilary's.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 8, 2017)

So let's take this moment to call the president a four year old rather than understanding that a horrendous amount of briefings are delivered in hard to read powerpoint...Ashley Parker on Twitter

Give me a word document any day over powerpoint slideology.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 8, 2017)

AWP said:


> We might be the only country in the world capable of shutting down an airport because of a lost bag, but incapable of shutting one down with 59 cruise missiles.



We probably spent more blowing that airfield up than the Syrians spent to build it.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 8, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> "point" Hilary...
> aka: "well played Ms. Clinton, well played...."



On  political level, I'm not sure we should be caring about Syrians or their babies.  It's not our job to protect them, to avenge them, or to offer them sanctuary.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 8, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> On political level, I'm not sure we should be caring about Syrians or their babies. It's not our job to protect them, to avenge them, or to offer them sanctuary.



Agreed.  What I meant is that it was a beautifully written way for for her to support the action, but still jab him on immigration and keep her base happy.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 8, 2017)

Let's Get Mad...yeah:





I don't know who Evan McMullin is, he's an idiot.


----------



## kb2012 (Apr 8, 2017)

Evan McMullin is a prior CIA guy who decided to run for President as an independent. He's Mormon and ended up splitting Utah (I believe) pretty heavily but had pretty much 0 support elsewhere.


----------



## CDG (Apr 9, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> We probably spent more blowing that airfield up than the Syrians spent to build it.


Yep.  Tomahawks run close to $1.5 million apiece.  Carry the 1........ $88.5 million, roughly, just for the missiles.


----------



## Viper1 (Apr 9, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Let's Get Mad...yeah:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Why do you think so? Do you disagree with his Presidential campaign platform or just his statements during Maher's show? 

McMullin was an intriguing 3rd party candidate. I disagree with certain things in his platform (deference to states rights on many issues) but by and large supported many of his policies, including his foreign policy views. I'd like to see his campaign and party gain traction.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 9, 2017)

I have no idea who he is besides what is on his wiki page.  He was not an intriguing candidate because he wasn't on the ballot in most places.  Again, I only found out about him because of the show.  I completely disagree with his remarks.


----------



## Kraut783 (Apr 9, 2017)

CDG said:


> Yep.  Tomahawks run close to $1.5 million apiece.  Carry the 1........ $88.5 million, roughly, just for the missiles.



But, already paid for munitions.


----------



## CDG (Apr 9, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> But, already paid for munitions.



True.  But expended missiles have to be replaced.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 9, 2017)

Was probably time to rotate the stock anyway.


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 9, 2017)

AWP said:


> We might be the only country in the world capable of shutting down an airport because of a lost bag, but incapable of shutting one down with 59 cruise missiles.


I don't think the desire was to shut down the airport, just hit facilities.  I haven't seen (and probably won't) any good bDA data.  Hitting the fuel tanks and weapons storage areas shuts and airfield down longer than hitting runways and taxiways.



Ocoka said:


> ^^^That's funny...and sad at the same time...
> 
> But I believe the intention here was more of a shot across the bow as opposed to a rain of death and destruction. A very sensible and shrewd man named Mattis was charged with coming up with the option list, and I could see him recommending this particular course of action. Minimal damage, very few casualties, a tip-off to the Russians (and hence to the Syrians), and no danger to American lives and assets.
> 
> The message being:  "Right now you're getting a fireworks show...the next time we put one right up your ass."



30 min warning and Russia's S-400 system hit how many missiles?
Either the system sucks, or Putin said stand down.


----------



## RackMaster (Apr 9, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> I don't think the desire was to shut down the airport, just hit facilities.  I haven't seen (and probably won't) any good bDA data.  Hitting the fuel tanks and weapons storage areas shuts and airfield down longer than hitting runways and taxiways.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Can't find it now but some RT hit piece today said only 23 missiles hit targets.  pretty good odds if you ask me.


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 9, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> Can't find it now but some RT hit piece today said only 23 missiles hit targets.  pretty good odds if you ask me.


How did they determine 29?  
Back in ancient times (Gulf War) we use to put two warheads into the same spot, so you could have a hard time counting divots if we still do that.


----------



## RackMaster (Apr 9, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> How did they determine 29?
> Back in ancient times (Gulf War) we use to put two warheads into the same spot, so you could have a hard time counting divots if we still do that.



Magic?   It was a Russia propaganda piece.


----------



## Gunz (Apr 10, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> ...30 min warning and Russia's S-400 system hit how many missiles?
> Either the system sucks, or Putin said stand down.



I think the latter.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 10, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> I think the latter.



Agree, agree, a thousand times agree.

This was hardly a "sneak attack" as Russian and Syria claim.


----------



## Gunz (Apr 10, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Agree, agree, a thousand times agree.
> 
> This was hardly a "sneak attack" as Russian and Syria claim.



That's just post-event spin to save face. Putin was contacted on the Hotline. He has 30 minutes. What's he gonna do? Declare war? If Putin was our POTUS he would've cluster-bombed the shit out of the airbase and killed half the fucking town along with it.


----------



## AWP (Apr 10, 2017)

I understand the seriousness of killing a Russian, but considering the actions of the RFAF over Syria and Iraq, I wouldn't shed a tear if we smoked a few.


----------



## Il Duce (Apr 10, 2017)

AWP said:


> I understand the seriousness of killing a Russian, but considering the actions of the RFAF over Syria and Iraq, I wouldn't shed a tear if we smoked a few.



I think the main concern is the Russian sponsored IADS network in Syria.  It's not something we want to be dodging while conducting bombing runs on ISIS.  Still, I think the most vulnerable aviation is aerial ISR.  I've been reading over the source material for the INSCOM 2025 planning - as the command tries to figure out the IWfF structure for the 2025-2040 'mid-term' threats in the Army strategy documents.  They say 'near-peer' threat - but of course they mean Russia and China.  Anyways, in it the IWfF is still talking about aerial ISR - especially FMV - as though that's going to be all over the place because the 'demand signal' is so high now.  I think it's ridiculous because most aerial ISR - but especially FMV - is incredibly vulnerable to modern anti-aircraft technology.  The 116th MI BDE and the USAF ought to be shitting their pants over the threat to aerial ISR the IADS in Syria - or even turning loose mobile systems - pose to that fleet.  Hopefully if we wake up to the threat now we'll take a different look at how we plan aerial ISR against anyone who is not insurgents with small-arms.


----------



## Gunz (Apr 11, 2017)

Il Duce said:


> I think the main concern is the Russian sponsored IADS network in Syria.  It's not something we want to be dodging while conducting bombing runs on ISIS.  Still, I think the most vulnerable aviation is aerial ISR.  I've been reading over the source material for the INSCOM 2025 planning - as the command tries to figure out the IWfF structure for the 2025-2040 'mid-term' threats in the Army strategy documents.  They say 'near-peer' threat - but of course they mean Russia and China.  Anyways, in it the IWfF is still talking about aerial ISR - especially FMV - as though that's going to be all over the place because the 'demand signal' is so high now.  I think it's ridiculous because most aerial ISR - but especially FMV - is incredibly vulnerable to modern anti-aircraft technology.  The 116th MI BDE and the USAF ought to be shitting their pants over the threat to aerial ISR the IADS in Syria - or even turning loose mobile systems - pose to that fleet.  Hopefully if we wake up to the threat now we'll take a different look at how we plan aerial ISR against anyone who is not insurgents with small-arms.




Last time I paid attention to this, only our B2s and F22s had the penetration capabilities to adequately counter the Russian or Chinese IADS. (I don't know about the F-35). And MC-12s conducting aerial ISR wouldn't stand a chance. SEAD/DEAD is going to be a significant challenge with these highly mobile platforms.

And the _only_ reason for the Russians to have installed a sophisticated IADS network in Syria is as a counter to US/Coalition aircraft, a figurative "I gotcha" just in case you guys are planning anything we don't agree with. They face no threat of aerial attack from ISIS.


----------



## CDG (Apr 11, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Last time I paid attention to this, only our B2s and F22s had the penetration capabilities to adequately counter the Russian or Chinese IADS. (I don't know about the F-35). And MC-12s conducting aerial ISR wouldn't stand a chance. SEAD/DEAD is going to be a significant challenge with these highly mobile platforms.
> 
> And the _only_ reason for the Russians to have installed a sophisticated IADS network in Syria is as a counter to US/Coalition aircraft, a figurative "I gotcha" just in case you guys are planning anything we don't agree with. They face no threat of aerial attack from ISIS.



The F-35 will be just fine against an advanced IADS system.  We may argue about its usefulness for CAS, but that plane is insanely capable in a denied/contested environment.


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 11, 2017)

Il Duce said:


> I think the main concern is the Russian sponsored IADS network in Syria.  It's not something we want to be dodging while conducting bombing runs on ISIS.  Still, I think the most vulnerable aviation is aerial ISR.  I've been reading over the source material for the INSCOM 2025 planning - as the command tries to figure out the IWfF structure for the 2025-2040 'mid-term' threats in the Army strategy documents.  They say 'near-peer' threat - but of course they mean Russia and China.  Anyways, in it the IWfF is still talking about aerial ISR - especially FMV - as though that's going to be all over the place because the 'demand signal' is so high now.  I think it's ridiculous because most aerial ISR - but especially FMV - is incredibly vulnerable to modern anti-aircraft technology.  The 116th MI BDE and the USAF ought to be shitting their pants over the threat to aerial ISR the IADS in Syria - or even turning loose mobile systems - pose to that fleet.  Hopefully if we wake up to the threat now we'll take a different look at how we plan aerial ISR against anyone who is not insurgents with small-arms.





Ocoka said:


> Last time I paid attention to this, only our B2s and F22s had the penetration capabilities to adequately counter the Russian or Chinese IADS. (I don't know about the F-35). And MC-12s conducting aerial ISR wouldn't stand a chance. SEAD/DEAD is going to be a significant challenge with these highly mobile platforms.
> 
> And the _only_ reason for the Russians to have installed a sophisticated IADS network in Syria is as a counter to US/Coalition aircraft, a figurative "I gotcha" just in case you guys are planning anything we don't agree with. They face no threat of aerial attack from ISIS.



And the Air Force got creamed by most people for trying to develop these systems while OEF/OIF were running, how many times did you read an internet comment about buying fewer aircraft to allow the Army the option of buying more stuff?

SecDef Gates had a personal vendetta against the AF and the folks flying (and on the ground) will be the ones who pay the price.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 11, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> And the Air Force got creamed by most people for trying to develop these systems while OEF/OIF were running, how many times did you read an internet comment about buying fewer aircraft to allow the Army the option of buying more stuff?
> 
> SecDef Gates had a personal vendetta against the AF and the folks flying (and on the ground) will be the ones who pay the price.


Quantity has a quality all of it's own...one of those is driving unit prices down.


----------



## Il Duce (Apr 11, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Last time I paid attention to this, only our B2s and F22s had the penetration capabilities to adequately counter the Russian or Chinese IADS. (I don't know about the F-35). And MC-12s conducting aerial ISR wouldn't stand a chance. SEAD/DEAD is going to be a significant challenge with these highly mobile platforms.
> 
> And the _only_ reason for the Russians to have installed a sophisticated IADS network in Syria is as a counter to US/Coalition aircraft, a figurative "I gotcha" just in case you guys are planning anything we don't agree with. They face no threat of aerial attack from ISIS.



I think that's one of the ironies/unintended consequences of American intervention from the air only.  It tells unfriendly - or potentially unfriendly - countries they need to invest in a Russian-made IADS to deter the chances of the US fucking with their repression.


----------



## Gunz (Apr 11, 2017)

Il Duce said:


> I think that's one of the ironies/unintended consequences of American intervention from the air only.  It tells unfriendly - or potentially unfriendly - countries they need to invest in a Russian-made IADS to deter the chances of the US fucking with their repression.



Russia and China have been outfitting their other allies with these S-400, S-300, S-200 systems including Iran and Venezuela. 

North Korea was showing off an upgraded SA-3 system a few years back and apparently have something close to the Russian S-300 now.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 11, 2017)

So the USS Ross held a CoC...great way to go out as a skipper I suppose...kind says bad juju USS Ross Holds Change of Command Ceremony


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Apr 11, 2017)

[Q


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 11, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> The article says this was a previously "regularly scheduled Change of Command Ceremony."
> 
> So what is the issue here? You seem to be passively suggesting that is a bad thing. Where is the "bad juju" that you are suggesting here?



What am I suggesting...that this could be in the 2017 fired commanders thread.  Seems truly a bit random and foreign to me.  I've seen some weird BN level CoCs in my life, but that's a good one.

Mod edit for spelling correction in quote used above.


----------



## Gunz (Apr 11, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> What am I suggesting...that this could be in the 2017 fired commanders thread.  Seems truly a bit random and foreign to me.  I've seen some weird BN level CoCs in my life, but that's a good one.



Disagree because

Regularly scheduled CoC...Routine port visit...Nothing to see here, folks...move along.

USS Ross Holds Change of Command Ceremony

There's nothing "weird" about this. Nobody's been fired.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Apr 11, 2017)

[Q


----------



## CDG (Apr 11, 2017)

The USS Ross was the ship I was stationed when I was in the Navy. Small world.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 11, 2017)

@Redflag1 what dirt am I trying to throw on.  I'm not a Navy man, but from my fox hole in Army land, it seems a bit weird to me.  And it was relevant to this thread because the ship had taken part in said successful mission.  

The Navy guys can talk about how often they have CoCs mid cruise.  Just seems weird and ominous.


----------



## pardus (Apr 11, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> What am I suggesting...that this could be in the 2017 fired commanders thread.  Seems truly a bit random and foreign to me.  I've seen some weird BN level CoCs in my life, but that's a good one.





ThunderHorse said:


> @Redflag1 what dirt am I trying to throw on.  I'm not a Navy man, but from my fox hole in Army land, it seems a bit weird to me.  And it was relevant to this thread because the ship had taken part in said successful mission.
> 
> The Navy guys can talk about how often they have CoCs mid cruise.  Just seems weird and ominous.



So because you are unfamiliar with the whole thing, you jump to the conclusion that the CPT is a shitbag?


----------



## AWP (Apr 11, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> What am I suggesting...that this could be in the 2017 fired commanders thread.  Seems truly a bit random and foreign to me.  I've seen some weird BN level CoCs in my life, but that's a good one.
> 
> Mod edit for spelling correction in quote used above.



Please tell us about your experience with the Navy's personnel system.


----------



## CDG (Apr 11, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> The Navy guys can talk about how often they have CoCs mid cruise.  Just seems weird and ominous.



Weird and ominous?  Lol.  Ok.  It happens regularly.  Ships will swap out entire crews while deployed.


----------



## pardus (Apr 11, 2017)

CDG said:


> Weird and ominous?  Lol.  Ok.  It happens regularly.  Ships will swap out entire crews while deployed.


----------



## Teufel (Apr 11, 2017)

The incoming commanding officer was probably already on the ship as her XO. The Navy does that a lot to get guys up to speed before taking command. The CDR probably changed command in April to hit the summer PCS season and maybe head to Top Level School.


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## Gunz (Apr 12, 2017)

Bridge-cam video. What really happened aboard the USS Ross...


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## DA SWO (Apr 12, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> What am I suggesting...that this could be in the 2017 fired commanders thread.  Seems truly a bit random and foreign to me.  I've seen some weird BN level CoCs in my life, but that's a good one.
> 
> Mod edit for spelling correction in quote used above.



It was a 17 month command tour with a Change of Command,  I doubt they would relieve the skipper and put a glowing press release out.



Teufel said:


> The incoming commanding officer was probably already on the ship as her XO. The Navy does that a lot to get guys up to speed before taking command. The CDR probably changed command in April to hit the summer PCS season and maybe head to Top Level School.



The XO took over after serving as XO for 18 months (I read the release).


----------



## Il Duce (Apr 12, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> It was a 17 month command tour with a Change of Command,  I doubt they would relieve the skipper and put a glowing press release out.
> 
> 
> 
> The XO took over after serving as XO for 18 months (I read the release).


 
We have to read shit before commenting on it now, dammit! :wall:


----------



## racing_kitty (Apr 12, 2017)

Il Duce said:


> We have to read shit before commenting on it now, dammit! :wall:



Hate because reading is hard.


----------



## Gunz (Apr 12, 2017)

racing_kitty said:


> Hate because reading is hard.



knot fer Mureenz


----------



## RackMaster (Apr 21, 2017)

Looks like Daesh has another group pledge allegiance and this time it's in an old conflict area; Sinai.  I have a feeling this is going to get real messy for the MFO.

Insurgents using ISIS 'brand' to attract recruits in Sinai: Canadian observer


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 25, 2017)

Because just killing IS and then worrying about the other problems is too much for Turkey...so they try to peck a fight with Iraq, wtf: Turkey hits Kurdish areas in Iraq's Sinjar, northeast Syria

ETA: The BOARS WILL DEFEAT ISIS-https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/world/2017/04/25/wild-boars-overrun-islamic-state-position-kill-3-militants/100876844/


----------



## AWP (Apr 29, 2017)

Something that didn't get a lot of press that I recall. I only knew of it because I saw it on the cover of Stripes. I have to wonder how far this will go, numbers wise.

Trump gives Pentagon authority to set troop levels  - CNNPolitics.com



> Washington (CNN) — President Donald Trump has delegated the authority to set official troop levels in the fight against ISIS in Iraq and Syria to Secretary of Defense James Mattis, the Pentagon said Wednesday.
> 
> "At the request of Secretary of Defense Mattis, the president has delegated force management authority to the secretary," Pentagon spokesman Maj. Adrian Rankine-Galloway told CNN Wednesday.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 29, 2017)

AWP said:


> Something that didn't get a lot of press that I recall. I only knew of it because I saw it on the cover of Stripes. I have to wonder how far this will go, numbers wise.
> 
> Trump gives Pentagon authority to set troop levels  - CNNPolitics.com


Wow...back in Vietnam.


----------



## Viper1 (Apr 29, 2017)

AWP said:


> Something that didn't get a lot of press that I recall. I only knew of it because I saw it on the cover of Stripes. I have to wonder how far this will go, numbers wise.
> 
> Trump gives Pentagon authority to set troop levels  - CNNPolitics.com



All without a declaration of war so we're stuck with yearly funding cycles and no long-term strategy. 

...And yet, I still want to go back in amongst all of this. I miss my Green Berets.

Helluva time to be alive.


----------



## Topkick (Apr 29, 2017)

Viper1 said:


> And yet, I still want to go back in amongst all of this



I never wanted to get out but this thing called age caught up with me.:wall:


----------



## Gunz (Apr 29, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Wow...back in Vietnam.



Not so. Troop levels during Vietnam had to be approved by the President. In this case Trump has given Mattis that authority.

I'd like to think Mattis has a much greater appreciation of the tactical requirements necessary in the theater than Westmoreland and the Vietnam-era Pentagon ever did. The former is a combatant commander directly familiar with the region; the latter, senior officers who'd cut their teeth on the battlefields of Europe vrs a conventional enemy.


----------



## Topkick (Apr 29, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Not so. Troop levels during Vietnam had to be approved by the President. In this case Trump has given Mattis that authority.



Indeed...and in fact, Commanders in Vietnam were constantly fighting with Washington DC to get more troops.

Also, this news is significant because Rumsfeld insisted on a bare minimum of troops in Iraq, which complicated the fight against the insurgency. Hopefully now commanders in uniform, those who have served, can call the shots.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 29, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> Looks like Daesh has another group pledge allegiance and this time it's in an old conflict area; Sinai.  I have a feeling this is going to get real messy for the MFO.
> 
> Insurgents using ISIS 'brand' to attract recruits in Sinai: Canadian observer



Glad I did the Sinai mission before the ISIS craziness started.


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 29, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Wow...back in Vietnam.


Moving the decision making authority from the WH to SecDef (especially this SecDef) is a good thing.


----------



## Il Duce (Apr 29, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> Moving the decision making authority from the WH to SecDef (especially this SecDef) is a good thing.



I think how much we want to commit to a theater in terms of national security - troops, money, reputation, alliances, diplomacy - are inherently strategic decisions that belong to the President.  Most President's execute those decisions/factors through a national security apparatus centered on the national security council.  Delegating decisions to the DoD does not shift those non-defense responsibilities, authority, or vision to the SECDEF.  The President will still be on the responsibility line for all those things when they don't go his way - when he signals an escalation of effort in Afghanistan to Russia, Pakistan, and Iran (who then increase their own support to the Taliban) through the employment of new weaponry like the MOAB.  The military commander may have made the decision without the President, the NSC, or even the DoD in the decision process - but the consequences and implications to policy will still rest with the President - as a recent example.

The silver lining is that if it turns out to go terribly wrong, we have deteriorating security situations, international commitments, and the collapse of diplomatic and military alliances I'm sure the President will assure the American public 'no one could have foreseen it was a mistake - no one knew how hard this stuff was.'  I'm pretty sure the 93% of his voters who still think he's doing everything right will continue to think that so what does he really have to lose?


----------



## Topkick (Apr 30, 2017)

Il Duce said:


> The military commander may have made the decision without the President, the NSC, or even the DoD in the decision process - but the consequences and implications to policy will still rest with the President - as a recent example.



This is why I still can not see any major decisions being made without the approval of the President. This is probably just an effort to portray that he will listen to military leaders more than previous administrations.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 30, 2017)

Ref. the "pigs kill ISIS fighters" story, I'm calling bullshit.  

I know it was in a credible source, but the story is utter garbage.  Look, I spent a lot of time in backwoods Georgia and I know wild boars are aggressive, territorial, and can in rare cases kill people.  Just usually not groups of people.  And definitely not groups of people armed with AK-47s.

We're to believe that a group of ISIS fighters numbering at least 8 (and probably considerably more) were setting up for an attack (which, by definition, means they were armed), and not only didn't hear a group of wild pigs coming, but the pigs were so ninja-like that they got the drop on a large group of armed men and KILLED THREE OF THEM AND WOUNDED FIVE OTHERS?  It reminds me of the Pesh propaganda:  "Our female fighters have killed dozens--no HUNDREDS--of ISIS fighters!!!! OMG!!!"  Wow, if that's the case then maybe you should just let your women do all the fighting, and the war would be over in weeks.

Same thing with the pigs.  How did this (anti-ISIS) sheikh even know the thing with the pigs happened?  Did the pigs come back to the village like "Bro, you're never going to guess what we did to a group of ISIS fucks that was setting up to take down your village!"

I'd find it more realistic if the sheikh said "We killed three ISIS fighters and fed them to the wild pigs."  Or "We captured a bunch of wounded ISIS dudes and we let the pigs finish them off."    That would at least have been credible.  This story isn't.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 30, 2017)

It's getting to the point a guy can't even enjoy a cup of coffee while eating his Merica-Freedom bacon without being accused of believing fake news.  :wall:


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 30, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Not so. Troop levels during Vietnam had to be approved by the President. In this case Trump has given Mattis that authority.
> 
> I'd like to think Mattis has a much greater appreciation of the tactical requirements necessary in the theater than Westmoreland and the Vietnam-era Pentagon ever did. The former is a combatant commander directly familiar with the region; the latter, senior officers who'd cut their teeth on the battlefields of Europe vrs a conventional enemy.



Westmoreland and his peers were still thinking WW2/Korea vs adapting to the evolution of the current war in Vietnam. We had the same problem in OIF1/2 during the invasion/ first two years. Applying Desert Storm/Bosnia thinking and tactics to a different war. 

I think Mattis is absolutely the right man for the job here. He is a legitimate scholar warrior, who understands where we have been, where we are and where we want to go. I think that global foresight has not changed much, then it was communism and regional control, now Islamic extremism and global trade control.

But anyway, I agree Mattis has a much better foresight for what needs to happen.


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 30, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Westmoreland and his peers were still thinking WW2/Korea vs adapting to the evolution of the current war in Vietnam. We had the same problem in OIF1/2 during the invasion/ first two years. Applying Desert Storm/Bosnia thinking and tactics to a different war.
> 
> I think Mattis is absolutely the right man for the job here. He is a legitimate scholar warrior, who understands where we have been, where we are and where we want to go. I think that global foresight has not changed much, then it was communism and regional control, now Islamic extremism and global trade control.
> 
> But anyway, I agree Mattis has a much better foresight for what needs to happen.


Disagree
I think Shinseki knew what he was talking about when he gave post hostilities troop requirements, and no one wanted to hear those figures/costs.


----------



## Topkick (Apr 30, 2017)

I agree. As I stated before, Rumsfeld absolutely did not want to hear about additional troops needed for anything other than the invasion itself.


----------



## AWP (Apr 30, 2017)

Rumsfeld's a moron. He could endorse oxygen and I wouldn't buy any.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 30, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> Disagree
> I think Shinseki knew what he was talking about when he gave post hostilities troop requirements, and no one wanted to hear those figures/costs.



Shineki was run out and didn't plan or execute OIF. But I agree he would have probably done a better job than Rumsfeld and Franks. I think the evasion allthrough an impressive operation. Completely failed to understand the culture and tribalism of Iraq. We bypassed alot of Iraqi units and equipment to take Baghdad.  Alot of weapons found there way into tribal militias. This coupled with a period of open borders and lack of civil rule, allowed these tribes to develop ruler influence and gave incentive to fight the "American Puppet" Iraqi government that we tried to emplace. As we tried to back our chosen civil governments, we spit in the eyes of the Iraqi tribes and pushed ourselves into the middle of  a civil war between the tribes and a insurgency influenced by Iran.

But I digress.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 30, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> Disagree
> I think Shinseki knew what he was talking about when he gave post hostilities troop requirements, and no one wanted to hear those figures/costs.



It could even be said that his post-war occupation estimates were even conservative.  With the amount of infrastructure we removed from operation; De-Baathification and the full disbanding of the Iraqi Security Force apparatus regardless of ethnic group, and political affiliation, made the task impossible without the political will to be stuck there for 50 years.  14 years in, 36 more to go.


----------



## Topkick (Apr 30, 2017)

I am not sure Shinseki knew anything except that 10,ooo troops wasn't enough. The guy that took the black beret from the rangers only knew that we needed more than 10,000 troops. I am not convinced that only a General could make that recommendation???


----------



## AWP (May 1, 2017)

Topkick said:


> I am not sure Shinseki knew anything except that 10,ooo troops wasn't enough. The guy that took the black beret from the rangers only knew that we needed more than 10,000 troops. I am not convinced that only a General could make that recommendation???



I think you're off a bit here. The US sent 130k, Shinseki stated we'd need "several hundred thousand" troops which was in line with many CENTCOM estimates. Rummy steamrolled Franks and Co. at CENTCOM for that 130k; Rumsfeld wanted fewer troops.

Maybe it is a case of a broken clock/ twice a day and all, but Shinseki was right on that one point. I vaguely recall the book Cobra II stating CENTCOM war gamed estimates were in the neighborhood of 300k+ troops required for after the invasion.

https://www.amazon.com/Cobra-II-Inside-Invasion-Occupation/dp/1400075394


----------



## Marauder06 (May 1, 2017)

Topkick said:


> I am not sure Shinseki knew anything except that 10,ooo troops wasn't enough. ...




He sure "knew" the Army needed those damn black berets.  And we haven't forgiven him for it since.


----------



## Topkick (May 1, 2017)

And I hated wearing a beret instead of a PC while in garrison.


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## Topkick (May 1, 2017)

I am reading the book Fiasco right now. It talks about Shinseki predicting there would be an influx of fighters from surrounding countries and that the next phase would be the toughest fight. He requested 260k but was ignored. AWP was right. We kicked it off with about 150k total. Apparently Shinseki was using his nugget on this one.


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 1, 2017)

Topkick said:


> I am reading the book Fiasco right now. It talks about Shinseki predicting there would be an influx of fighters from surrounding countries and that the next phase would be the toughest fight. He requested 260k but was ignored. AWP was right. We kicked it off with about 150k total. Apparently Shinseki was using his nugget on this one.


Crazy amount of stuff going down in that book.


----------



## Gunz (May 1, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> Ref. the "pigs kill ISIS fighters" story, I'm calling bullshit.
> 
> I know it was in a credible source, but the story is utter garbage.  Look, I spent a lot of time in backwoods Georgia and I know wild boars are aggressive, territorial, and can in rare cases kill people.  Just usually not groups of people.  And definitely not groups of people armed with AK-47s.
> 
> ...




You're right, sir, it's fantasy. I've been hunting wild hogs for 20 years. I'd believe--maybe--that a big boar could maul one guy before mags were emptied on him. And once the shooting starts, any hog that isn't dead is running for the next county.


----------



## Gunz (May 1, 2017)

AWP said:


> I think you're off a bit here. The US sent 130k, Shinseki stated we'd need "several hundred thousand" troops which was in line with many CENTCOM estimates. Rummy steamrolled Franks and Co. at CENTCOM for that 130k; Rumsfeld wanted fewer troops.
> 
> Maybe it is a case of a broken clock/ twice a day and all, but Shinseki was right on that one point. I vaguely recall the book Cobra II stating CENTCOM war gamed estimates were in the neighborhood of 300k+ troops required for after the invasion.
> 
> Cobra II: The Inside Story of the Invasion and Occupation of Iraq: Michael R. Gordon, Bernard E. Trainor: 9781400075393: Amazon.com: Books




Absolutely. Rummy was so infatuated with the exploits of the Special Forces/Northern Alliance/Terminal Guidance/horse-soldier stuff in Afghanistan in '02 that he thought less rather than more would work in Iraq, too...failing to consider the enormous differences in cultures, infrastructure, population, terrain, politics, weapons. It illustrates Rumsfeld's ignorance and it cost lives.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 1, 2017)

260k troops, 500 troops even wouldn't have stopped the mess that took place.

Our fuck ups:

1) disbanding Iraqi government, to include public services, military and civil athourity.

2) not securing the borders. You had every freaking jihadi from the region poring into Iraq to fight the Americans in late 03 to about 06. Hell my platoon snatched an Afghan at a local bazaar trying to buy semtex and det cord. Local reported him. We should have had the Syrian and Iranian border locked down asap. We didn't.

3) centralized ruling government vs regional governments (Kurdish region did okay, but different government, and if not for their control of oil, they would have been fucked). Again the tribal bullshit.

4) promising the Iraqi people rainbows and unicorns. Yeah we'll get the power and water back on, yes we will stop the kiddnapings, blood right killing, robbing and looting.

5) not taking out the Iranian government. If we had kept the Iraqi government in place with a contengent of coalition forces and immediately pushed east into Iran, it would be a different world today.

6) allowing shit head psycho's to guard prisoners with cameras. Yes abu grabe didn't help the whole "were the Americans here to liberate you from the your oppressors" image.

7) bouncing out before the Iraqi forces had been properly established and regional governments had been emplamented. We had a short period in time with the sons of Iraq to turn the tide and make that mission a true success. We fucked up big on that one.

Anyway I can go on and on. What we did was manuever warfared our asses to Baghdad and applied a Bosnia/KFOR style police action and that shit blew the fuck up in our faces. Then we were behind the 8 ball trying new shit, some worked and some didn't.

$.02


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 1, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> 5) not taking out the Iranian government. If we had kept the Iraqi government in place with a contengent of coalition forces and immediately pushed east into Iran, it would be a different world today.



That's a whole lot of hell no.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 1, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> That's a whole lot of hell no.



How do you figure? You think the countless Joe's who were mutilated and killed by Iranian made EFP's was something to be over looked? Or the Iranian infultrater Muqtada al-Sadr and his Mahdi Army (militia) or the political and psychological controls they placed on Iraqis and disruption of our own strategy was something to be over looked? You think Iran having political and economical influence over a war torn Iraq is a good thing? You believe Iran's threat to our partnerships in the middle east and there vowing promise to destroy Israel, is a good thing for the region? Won't even get into the terrorism sponsoring they have been doing for the last 35 years.

Nah dude, we should smoked that government while we had the momentum and the semi backing of the world/coalition governments. It ain't going to happen now, until they directly attack the United States or one of our allies. Something we should have never waited for IMHO.


----------



## Totentanz (May 1, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> taking out the Iranian government.



I agree with most of what you wrote but this has some severe negative consequences the last time we actually did it and would be a bad idea today.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 1, 2017)

Totentanz said:


> I agree with most of what you wrote but this has some severe negative consequences the last time we actually did it and would be a bad idea today.



Obviously it isn't going to happen today, but in 2003, it would have been the perfect time. We would have faced some backlash from Russia, but at the time Putin didn't have the political pull or military reforms to really do anything about it. And they were still dealing with Chechen jihadi's themselves. 

But yeah it's not happening now. I was mainly pointing out what we should have done back in 03 vs what we did.


----------



## Topkick (May 1, 2017)

Yes, Iran aided/ aids greatly to the insurgency And as much as I agree that the Iranian government needed to be taken down, that could've made things much worse. Another country in turmoil and without a government could have created even more insurgents. They would have access to more sophisticated weapons and even WMDs. Who knows, it was and still is a mess.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 1, 2017)

Topkick said:


> Yes, Iran aided/ aids greatly to the insurgency And as much as I agree that the Iranian government needed to be taken down, that could've made things much worse. Another country in turmoil and without a government could have created even more insurgents. They would have access to more sophisticated weapons and even WMDs. Who knows, it was and still is a mess.



Possibly so, there is a large undergrowth of Iranians who do not care for their government rule. How large respectively to those who are for it I have no idea. But the Arab spring 2011-12 was a pretty good indication. Another chance our government had a chance to really influence change, instead we bombed Libya.


----------



## Topkick (May 1, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Possibly so, there is a large undergrowth of Iranians who do not care for their government rule. How large respectively to those who are for it I have no idea. But the Arab spring 2011-12 was a pretty good indication. Another chance our government had to really influence change, instead we bombed Libia.



You make good points here, but we thought that we would be welcomed as liberators in Iraq after we took out that POS Saddam and we were wrong. Yes, you would think these people would want to be free but as we both know, those dudes don't think like we do!


----------



## Totentanz (May 1, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Possibly so, there is a large undergrowth of Iranians who do not care for their government rule. How large respectively to those who are for it I have no idea. But the Arab spring 2011-12 was a pretty good indication. Another chance our government had to really influence change, instead we bombed Libia.



The biggest thing that would undermine disaffection toward their government and galvanize them against the west is any perception (real or imagined) that they're being externally influenced.  They don't like their own government making up their minds for them (see also the 2009 election of Ahmedinejad), and they REALLY don't like outsiders doing it.

Change would be great, but it's a place to tread extremely lightly.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 1, 2017)

14 years later, not much has changed. I'm not saying Bush had it right, obviously some of his department heads were fucked up, Rummy being a good example. But shit didn't get better under Obama and honestly got alot worse...


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 1, 2017)

Totentanz said:


> The biggest thing that would undermine disaffection toward their government and galvanize them against the west is any perception (real or imagined) that they're being externally influenced.  They don't like their own government making up their minds for them (see also the 2009 election of Ahmedinejad), and they REALLY don't like outsiders doing it.
> 
> Change would be great, but it's a place to tread extremely lightly.



I don't disagree, but the other side of the coin is their dedication to supporting terrorist groups who attack us and our allies. Allowing these proxi conflicts and political influences to go unchecked has put where we are today. Our sailors getting snatched up, buzzing our ships, Iranian government throwing us the finger as they attack us covertly and we do nothing about it.

I'm all for stabilizing the middle east, and definitely don't want my son chewing they same sand I did 10 years from now. But damn, some times you have to cut out that cancer so the body can begin to heal. We had that opportunity in 2003, we had a similar opportunity in 2011. Who knows when we will get another one.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 1, 2017)

Topkick said:


> You make good points here, but we thought that we would be welcomed as liberators in Iraq after we took out that POS Saddam and we were wrong. Yes, you would think these people would want to be free but as we both know, those dudes don't think like we do!



Initially we were welcomed as liberators, a year with looting, murder, kiddnapings, no work, no utilities, midnight raids and prisoner abuse being front page to the world, tends to change that welcome to a big fuck you. Than clerics pushing their anti American bullshit start to get a lot more support and uneducated masses, don't question or think for themselves. Than you have supporters of al-Sadr, or AQ-I and waring tribes locked into a civil war. I had the front row seat for 31 months of my life, hell half the people we rolled up didn't even know why they were fighting us "dick head leader over here said to" type shit. Hell most couldn't even read much less research their own religion. I think we got played by a few smart guys controlling a shit load of dumb ones.

I'm not saying I'm right on all counts, but my experience, research and thoughts have lead me to my opinions. It ain't some shit I'm just throwing out as "what if's". But hell, I've been wrong 'once' before.:-"


----------



## Topkick (May 1, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Initially we were welcomed as liberators, a year with looting, murder, kiddnapings, no work, no utilities, midnight raids and prisoner abuse being front page to the world, tends to change that welcome to a big fuck you. Than clerics pushing their anti American bullshit start to get a lot more support and uneducated masses, don't question or think for themselves. Than you have supporters of al-Sadr, or AQ-I and waring tribes locked into a civil war. I had the front row seat for 31 months of my life, hell half the people we rolled up didn't even know why they were fighting us "dick head leader over here said to" type shit. Hell most couldn't even read much less research their own religion. I think we got played by a few smart guys controlling a shit load of dumb ones.
> 
> I'm not saying I'm right on all counts, but my experience, research and thoughts have lead me to my opinions. It ain't some shit I'm just throwing out as "what if's". But hell, I've been wrong 'once' before.:-"



I got to embrace the suck too my friend. The insurgency  started almost immediately and part of this was because we are infidels occupying their holy land, which stems from the first gulf war. You are not wrong at all, its just a really big can of worms.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 1, 2017)

I think there is alot of things that have lead us to where we are with regards to modern day Iraq. The mongols sacking Baghdad and killing off all the educated people, the crusades, the British Empire rule and subsequent dividing border lines, forcing tribes to attempt to unite under one banner called "Iraq". Or the division of those tribes by borders that have existed for less than a century, while the tribes have beliefs they are the decedent's of the cradle of life itself.  The western influences in attempting to exploit their oil. The backing and arming of a brutal dictator, who ruled these tribes with an iron fist. Who we later turned against, than placing crippling economic sanctions for over a decade. Only to invade and overthrow that dictator while leaving there infrastructure in shambles, etc. Not even diving into the fuck ups along the way during OIF, we're just talking a brief overview of Iraq. Iran is another ball of wax in of itself, much less the region. 

Yeah it's a can of worms...


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 2, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> How do you figure? You think the countless Joe's who were mutilated and killed by Iranian made EFP's was something to be over looked? Or the Iranian infultrater Muqtada al-Sadr and his Mahdi Army (militia) or the political and psychological controls they placed on Iraqis and disruption of our own strategy was something to be over looked? You think Iran having political and economical influence over a war torn Iraq is a good thing? You believe Iran's threat to our partnerships in the middle east and there vowing promise to destroy Israel, is a good thing for the region? Won't even get into the terrorism sponsoring they have been doing for the last 35 years.
> 
> Nah dude, we should smoked that government while we had the momentum and the semi backing of the world/coalition governments. It ain't going to happen now, until they directly attack the United States or one of our allies. Something we should have never waited for IMHO.



An invasion of Iran would have been a blood bath.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 2, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> An invasion of Iran would have been a blood bath.



Dude sometimes I have a serious time deciphering if you are trolling or trying to make a legitimate statement.?

Iran's military capabilities is a joke in comparison to ours. The only "blood bath" would be their own military forces. In a head to head conventional war, we would monkey stomp the shit out of them. I mean just going off of manpower, equipment, munitions and budgets, they literally stand no chance. Not even getting into the technical advances we have over them. We would rule their skies and coastal waters in a matter of hours, and their land forces in a matter of days.

I don't like to make light of any war, but come on man, Iran? The Army that rolled out the fake fiberglass "stealth fighter" and who does military demonstrations of dudes in pajamas repelling from power poles, or their great Navy commandos acting like kids at a pool with Kbar, or their great demonstrations of the "martial arts" of the Iranian forces. I mean I'm not saying they're not shit for the region, they just ain't shit for us.






The big bad Iranian boogie man. LOL


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 2, 2017)

Difference between and Iranian Moderate politician and a far right politician when put on our scale is negligible.  It's just the amount of times over they would desire to destroy Israel.  Yeah, there are some groups that they have to deal with from time to time.

Immediately turning to the right flank to do some thunder run on Iran when they had roughly 300,000 regulars between volunteers and conscripts, another 700k in reserves, then add IRGC regulars and irregulars.  Do you really think going in another mountain country would be remotely a good idea.  Yeah, we'd probably kick some serious ass during the invasion, but this would become a defensive and irregular fight very fast.  And then you add to the fact that there's  82,000,000 people that would definitely want to shoot every US Soldier in the back.  No thank you.

We also have that awesome benefit of hindsight that shows invading Iraq didn't necessarily get us much.


----------



## racing_kitty (May 2, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Difference between and Iranian Moderate politician and a far right politician when put on our scale is negligible.  It's just the amount of times over they would desire to destroy Israel.  Yeah, there are some groups that they have to deal with from time to time.
> 
> *Immediately turning to the right flank to do some thunder run on Iran when they had roughly 300,000 regulars between volunteers and conscripts, another 700k in reserves, then add IRGC regulars and irregulars.  Do you really think going in another mountain country would be remotely a good idea.  Yeah, we'd probably kick some serious ass during the invasion, but this would become a defensive and irregular fight very fast.  And then you add to the fact that there's  82,000,000 people that would definitely want to shoot every US Soldier in the back.  No thank you.*
> 
> We also have that awesome benefit of hindsight that shows invading Iraq didn't necessarily get us much.



I agree with the part in bold.  Turning our sights on Iran in conventional combat during our foray into Iraq would've been an absolutely ghastly idea.  We were barely able to fight a two-front war as it was, with help, and look how Afghanistan turned out as a result.  Even our special operations assets were working overtime with what we already had on our plate.  Entering combat with Iran during that misguided decade would only sound like a good idea in a Tom Clancy novel.  

As far as why we didn't topple the theocracy when the opportunity presented itself, I don't have a ready, in-depth answer for that.  To really effect change from the inside, we would've needed contacts on the inside that could provide the "nudge here, push there" needed for that pile of Jenga blocks to fall over.  Those assets would've taken time to establish. time that we did not invest in for the longest.  Even if we dropped in a small group of trigger pullers and door kickers, and pulled them right back out before the smoke had cleared, we'd still be in the wrong in the eyes of the Arab world; whoever came to power afterwards would bear the taint of being an American puppet just because they benefited from our presence.


----------



## Gunz (May 2, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Dude sometimes I have a serious time deciphering if you are trolling or trying to make a legitimate statement.?
> 
> Iran's military capabilities is a joke in comparison to ours. The only "blood bath" would be their own military forces. In a head to head conventional war, we would monkey stomp the shit out of them. I mean just going off of manpower, equipment, munitions and budgets, they literally stand no chance. Not even getting into the technical advances we have over them. We would rule their skies and coastal waters in a matter of hours, and their land forces in a matter of days.
> 
> ...



I like a lot of what you write, J... emotionally I'm all about turning Iran into a big sandy hole. But to try and take it on with everything else on our plate at the time would've been a disaster for many of the reasons already stated. From a resource standpoint alone, it would've drained the barrel dry.

If you look at the bright side, Iran may give us any number of reasons to make it a big sandy hole in the future. There are a few other places just asking for it, too.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 2, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Difference between and Iranian Moderate politician and a far right politician when put on our scale is negligible.  It's just the amount of times over they would desire to destroy Israel.  Yeah, there are some groups that they have to deal with from time to time.
> 
> Immediately turning to the right flank to do some thunder run on Iran when they had roughly 300,000 regulars between volunteers and conscripts, another 700k in reserves, then add IRGC regulars and irregulars.  Do you really think going in another mountain country would be remotely a good idea.  Yeah, we'd probably kick some serious ass during the invasion, but this would become a defensive and irregular fight very fast.  And then you add to the fact that there's  82,000,000 people that would definitely want to shoot every US Soldier in the back.  No thank you.
> 
> We also have that awesome benefit of hindsight that shows invading Iraq didn't necessarily get us much.



That was a good well thought out post.

So are you stating that we wouldn't have accomplished anything by thumping on the Iranian military? Or are you stating that if we did, the civilian population would turn against us and or kill us all?

Do you think leaving Iran unchecked has accomplished anything? They have literally been directly responsible for the death and wounding of thousands of our services members. They have sponsored terrorism around the globe, they al-Sadr and his Mahdi army, and manipulated Iraq political gov. And now gone as far as to start snatching our sailors and our allies sailors.

Now they are trying to build a nuclear weapons program.

Do you really, truly, honestly believe that facing Iran 5-10 years from now when they have nuclear weapon capabilities is going to be better than it would have been in 2003?


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 2, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> That was a good well thought out post.
> 
> So are you stating that we wouldn't have accomplished anything by thumping on the Iranian military? Or are you stating that if we did, the civilian population would turn against us and or kill us all?
> 
> ...



So in that same breadth, why have we not exacted regime change in SA, UAE, Qatar? 

I don't really know where you're going with this, but I'm just doing the math and going towards Tehran would have done nothing for us.  Policing the world makes you a lot of dangerous enemies.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 2, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> So in that same breadth, why have we not exacted regime change in SA, UAE, Qatar?
> 
> *Oil, they play ball by our rules and Iran will not. Russia's backing of Iran and Syria has nothing to do with being buddy-buddy andeverything to do with Oil, an oil pipe line to a deep port and removing our economic influence through oil.*
> 
> I don't really know where you're going with this, but I'm just doing the math and going towards Tehran would have done nothing for us.  Policing the world makes you a lot of dangerous enemies.



When you run the world, you have to police it. Heavy is the crown and whatnot. Limiting Iranian influence in the middle east, specifically keeping an arms race from happening and maintaining our middle eastern allies, who are adamantly opposed to Iran and their influence in the region is a major reason why. Never mind the fact that they want to destroy the only true democracy in the middle east, Israel.


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## ThunderHorse (May 2, 2017)

Yeah I'm not starting a World War on a whim.  If you want to turn the place into green glass, I'm up for that!

I'm trying to see how you figure we could have done it as well.  It becomes a logistical nightmare let alone the cost in blood.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 2, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Yeah I'm not starting a World War on a whim.  If you want to turn the place into green glass, I'm up for that!
> 
> I'm trying to see how you figure we could have done it as well.  It becomes a logistical nightmare let alone the cost in blood.



 I'll reply later tonight.


----------



## TLDR20 (May 2, 2017)

Saw Eagles of Death Metal tonight. They were playing during the shootings in Paris, just another daily reminder: FUCK ISIS.


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## DocIllinois (May 2, 2017)

Love that Eagles of Death Metal are included in a modern conflict section.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 3, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Yeah I'm not starting a World War on a whim.  If you want to turn the place into green glass, I'm up for that!
> 
> *A bit of a contradiction in that statement.  But, nobody is saying start WW3 on a whim. *
> 
> I'm trying to see how you figure we could have done it as well.  It becomes a logistical nightmare let alone the cost in blood.



How is Iran any different from a logistical stand point than Iraq?

As for how I figure the US Military could have done it, really? 1)an Arab coalition to step in immediately post conflict. 2) Air and Sea Campaign to hit all their airfields, weapons sights, major communication and command centers. You know the whole "shock and awe" thing. 3) amphibious assualt from the south, overland assualt from the west, and some good old mischief from the east. I'd send the Army heavy from Iraq, I'd send the Marines from the south and I'd use Army light units back with alot of anti armor and arty on the east. Link SF with the Kurds on the northwest, maybe drop an Airplane gang some where's in there. Let SOF hunt down key leaders.

Oh wait, where does that sound familiar from...

I think you and I have very different views on Iran's capabilities. I don't see a blood bath, I don't see a long term conflict, and I think an Iran in shambles vs a regional power is a good thing. Take out their military, take out their leaders, destroy their nuclear programs, and leave them in shambles. Let the Arab world deal with it. Eventually that region is going to evolve, either on their own, or through the barrel of a gun. But it's going to happen, the world can't keep being held up up by goat herding donkey fuckers. We got better shit to do.


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 3, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> How is Iran any different from a logistical stand point than Iraq?
> 
> As for how I figure the US Military could have done it, really? 1)an Arab coalition to step in immediately post conflict. 2) Air and Sea Campaign to hit all their airfields, weapons sights, major communication and command centers. You know the whole "shock and awe" thing. 3) amphibious assualt from the south, overland assualt from the west, and some good old mischief from the east. I'd send the Army heavy from Iraq, I'd send the Marines from the south and I'd use Army light units back with alot of anti armor and arty on the east. Link SF with the Kurds on the northwest, maybe drop an Airplane gang some where's in there. Let SOF hunt down key leaders.
> 
> ...



1) There was no Arab coalition prepared or willing to occupy Iraq or Afghanistan (yes Afghans are not Arab, but they are Muslim).  Saudis getting their ass kicked in Yemen still.  Turks would definitely tell us to piss off, again.
2) Air Campaign, we'll lose a some planes but I see air supremacy eventually happening. 
3)  Amphibious Assault quickly becomes a fight through mountains.  Coming from the West is a fight through mountains.
4) Our coalition of the willing quickly beats feet out of Iraq and Afghanistan.

When it comes to capabilities, I'm not worried about Air Land Battle on an open plain, it's getting to that open plain where you can somehow achieve your decisive victory that you think is going to happen.  Logistically it's a nightmare, the people in the surrounding countries already hate us and their governments tolerate us because our backing is in their interest against Iran.  But this isn't some punitive expedition, if you didn't notice we're back in Iraq.  We'd be exposed on both of our flanks and I'm not willing to bet that any of those Arab countries would provide a logistical hub.  You're talking about owning a battle space with over 100 million muldoons that would drop a grenade in your rucksack and shoot you in the back.

No thank you.


----------



## Topkick (May 3, 2017)

Whether or not we can take down the Iranian Army and its government is not in question. We could. Its what happens after that I would be concerned with. These countries do not want to evolve. Research the Iran hostage crisis of 1979. If we ever do take Iran, we better have a fool- proof post invasion plan or I am afraid we have not seen the depths of terrorism we could see.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 3, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> 1) There was no Arab coalition prepared or willing to occupy Iraq or Afghanistan (yes Afghans are not Arab, but they are Muslim).  Saudis getting their ass kicked in Yemen still.  Turks would definitely tell us to piss off, again.
> 2) Air Campaign, we'll lose a some planes but I see air supremacy eventually happening.
> 3)  Amphibious Assault quickly becomes a fight through mountains.  Coming from the West is a fight through mountains.
> 4) Our coalition of the willing quickly beats feet out of Iraq and Afghanistan.
> ...



I've changed my mind, you are absolutely right. There is no way we can move logistics through two sea ports (I mean not like we did it in a landlocked country or anything). We would never be able to protect our flanks against the amazing military forces of Iraq and Afghanistan (which we had already owned at that point) and we would totally be stopped cold by 100 million Iranian booger eaters (that didn't exist in 2003, yeah it was more like 60 mil than and 90 mil now, but thats beside the point not every civil is going pick up a gun). I guess while you tremble at the prospect of taking out our enemies in Iran, we can wait and see what they end up doing with that nuclear program.

At least if we had done it in 03, I wouldn't have to worry about my kids having the finish the job, or if these fuck end up sneaking a nuke into our country.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 3, 2017)

Topkick said:


> Whether or not we can take down the Iranian Army and its government is not in question. We could. Its what happens after that I would be concerned with. These countries do not want to evolve. Research the Iran hostage crisis of 1979. If we ever do take Iran, we better have a fool- proof post invasion plan or I am afraid we have not seen the depths of terrorism we could see.



I agree we haven't seen the full depths of terrorism from the likes of Iran. My concerns is a dirty nuke in our backyard. 

But anyway, I've stated my point of view enough for awhile.

FUCK ISIS!


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## ThunderHorse (May 3, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I've changed my mind, you are absolutely right. There is no way we can move logistics through two sea ports (I mean not like we did it in a landlocked country or anything). We would never be able to protect our flanks against the amazing military forces of Iraq and Afghanistan (which we had already owned at that point) and we would totally be stopped cold by 100 million Iranian booger eaters (that didn't exist in 2003, yeah it was more like 60 mil than and 90 mil now, but thats beside the point not every civil is going pick up a gun). I guess while you tremble at the prospect of taking out our enemies in Iran, we can wait and see what they end up doing with that nuclear program.
> 
> At least if we had done it in 03, I wouldn't have to worry about my kids having the finish the job, or if these fuck end up sneaking a nuke into our country.



Are you trolling right now...cuz I can't tell.  I wasn't talking specifically about the Iranian population, but the combined population of Afghanistan, Iran, and Iraq with addition of the real estate with the size of our force at that point.  Occupation Models post 9/11 do not shake out.  The occupation model of Post WWII shakes out.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (May 9, 2017)

Ummm....yeah.  

ISIS video shows beheading of alleged Russian spy

Waiting for this headline: Trump announces all US troops out of Syria.  Tells Putin, "get some."


----------



## RackMaster (May 9, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Ummm....yeah.
> 
> ISIS video shows beheading of alleged Russian spy
> 
> Waiting for this headline: Trump announces all US troops out of Syria.  Tells Putin, "get some."



I want to see ISIS play catch with a bunch of Russian Father of All Bombs.


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## ThunderHorse (May 10, 2017)

Yay for courting a confrontation with an actual ally: Syria war: US to arm Kurds in battle for Raqqa - BBC News


----------



## RackMaster (May 10, 2017)

Fuck Turkey!  It's way past time to carve that region up again and give the Kurds their own nation.


----------



## Totentanz (May 10, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> Fuck Turkey!  It's way past time to carve that region up again and give the Kurds their own nation.



Turkey is the Eurasian Pakistan; if not for their geography we'd have no reason to tolerate their shit.


----------



## AWP (May 10, 2017)

Totentanz said:


> Turkey is the Eurasian Pakistan; if not for their geography we'd have no reason to tolerate their shit.



Pakistan is a valuable and critical component of the GWOT. Without Pakistan's heavy and effective involvement we wouldn't be where we are today.


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## Topkick (May 11, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> Fuck Turkey!  It's way past time to carve that region up again and give the Kurds their own nation.



Part of me agrees, but it would be difficult to carve up anything in the region without using Turkey as a staging area. However, as with all middle eastern countries and US relations, things change.


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## Gunz (May 11, 2017)

I love Pakistan. What's not to love about 180-million terrorist sympathizers and one toilet.


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## RackMaster (May 11, 2017)

Topkick said:


> Part of me agrees, but it would be difficult to carve up anything in the region without using Turkey as a staging area. However, as with all middle eastern countries and US relations, things change.



Oh I understand.  Not saying it'll be easy or if it will ever happen.


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 12, 2017)

U.S. and Its Syrian Allies At Odds Over Deal That Let Islamic State Flee

Only good IS Fighter is Dead IS Fighter.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (May 12, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Only good IS Fighter is Dead IS Fighter.



*Confucius say....


*


----------



## AWP (May 18, 2017)

US: Hey, stay out of our exclusion zone.
Russia: Nah, we're good.
US: Seriously.
Russia: How about some of our proxies?
Us: Pew, pew, pew.

US-led coalition airstrikes targeted pro-Syrian regime forces - CNNPolitics.com



> Washington (CNN)US-led coalition aircraft bombed pro-Syrian regime forces Thursday that "were advancing well inside an established de-confliction zone," according to a statement issued by Operation Inherent Resolve, the official name for the coalition fighting ISIS.
> 
> The statement said the pro-regime militias "posed a threat to US and partner forces at At Tanf," a remote base in southern Syria near the Syria-Jordan-Iraq border that coalition advisers have used to train "Vetted Syrian Opposition" to aid the fight against ISIS.


----------



## Marauder06 (May 19, 2017)

AWP said:


> Pakistan is a valuable and critical component of the GWOT. Without Pakistan's heavy and effective involvement we wouldn't be where we are today.



I know you meant that sarcastically/ironically.  Still couldn't stop the "hate."  ;)


----------



## AWP (May 19, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> I know you meant that sarcastically/ironically.  Still couldn't stop the "hate."  ;)



Kind of a geopolitical double entendre. You can hate the statement but can't deny the truth...


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## ThunderHorse (May 30, 2017)

This just does not sound like it will end well: U.S. Sees a Vital Iraqi Toll Road, but Iran Sees a Threat


----------



## R.Caerbannog (May 30, 2017)

I seriously despise Iran. Wish that there was a way to fuck with them. Either by cutting off luxury goods to their leaders or whatever. But dear god I hate those fuckers in power.


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## Topkick (May 30, 2017)

Service stations and cafes, huh? Unless things have changed recently, that country doesn't care about evolution or what the west calls "progress."


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 30, 2017)

Topkick said:


> Service stations and cafes, huh? Unless things have changed recently, that country doesn't care about evolution or what the west calls " progress"



They are too busy, sitting on the ground eating goat and rice with their hands sucking down that shit tea, and plotting their next way to beat women and kill gays, to think of luxury. Praise be to God and God willing, they will kill all the infadels and return Persia to its glory days, of tribal raids and slaves.


----------



## CQB (Jun 3, 2017)

With our 'supposed' terrorist event in Sydney a little while ago, I had a brief chance conversation with an Iranian woman. She was amazed that it went on for so long observing that in Iran the perp wouldn't have lasted half an hour. Can't be all bad.


----------



## Gunz (Jun 3, 2017)

CQB said:


> With our 'supposed' terrorist event in Sydney a little while ago, I had a brief chance conversation with an Iranian woman. She was amazed that it went on for so long observing that in Iran the perp wouldn't have lasted half an hour. Can't be all bad.



There are some aspects of Islamic justice that I admire.


----------



## pardus (Jun 4, 2017)

Until we as a species realise that religion is fake and inherently evil, this shit will never, ever end.


----------



## Topkick (Jun 4, 2017)

Or we just respect each other and fuckin quit worrying about what religion the other dude subscribes to and let the afterlife be a personal dilemma.


----------



## pardus (Jun 4, 2017)

Topkick said:


> Or we just respect each other and fuckin quit worrying about what religion the other dude subscribes to and let the afterlife be a personal dilemma.



How's that working out so far?


----------



## Topkick (Jun 4, 2017)

Agree..But how is your plan working out?


----------



## pardus (Jun 4, 2017)

Topkick said:


> Agree..But how is your plan working out?



Poorly because seemingly sane people continue to grasp onto archaic lies. Enjoy the Jihad!


----------



## Topkick (Jun 4, 2017)

Its a great way to keep the employment levels up.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jun 4, 2017)

pardus said:


> Poorly because seemingly sane people continue to grasp onto archaic lies. Enjoy the Jihad!


Are they sane though?  When Jesus said turn the other cheek he wasn't preaching about someone coming to kill you and your kin. He was talking about being offended.

Now, Islam, the entire history of the faith is centered around an attempt at conquering the world and subjugating non-Muslims.


----------



## pardus (Jun 4, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Are they sane though?  When Jesus said turn the other cheek he wasn't preaching about someone coming to kill you and your kin. He was talking about being offended.
> 
> Now, Islam, the entire history of the faith is centered around an attempt at conquering the world and subjugating non-Muslims.



It's the SAME "god". The god (old testament) that committed genocide, slaughtered people for sexual preferences, tortured and killed for his enjoyment and satisfaction, then started saying out of the blue (new testament)  that love and peace was the new thing, then decided fuck it (koran) that you will obey or be killed.


----------



## Topkick (Jun 4, 2017)

pardus said:


> It's the SAME "god". The god (old testament) that committed genocide, slaughtered people for sexual preferences, tortured and killed for his enjoyment and satisfaction, then started saying out of the blue (new testament)  that love and peace was the new thing, then decided fuck it (koran) that you will obey or be killed.




Still?


----------



## pardus (Jun 4, 2017)

Topkick said:


> Still?



What do you mean, Still?


----------



## Topkick (Jun 4, 2017)

Catholics did try to conquer...but are they still trying to conquer?


----------



## pardus (Jun 4, 2017)

Topkick said:


> Catholics did try to conquer...but are they still trying to conquer?



Nazis tried to exterminate the Jews, are they still trying to?
Catholicism has been a blight on civilization, holding science back to retain its power over the people. How many people did they murder? Millions, same organization. Heresy is still a crime right?


----------



## Topkick (Jun 4, 2017)

I don't disagree. I just don't see all religions as a threat to mankind...but Islam is.


----------



## pardus (Jun 4, 2017)

Topkick said:


> I don't disagree. I just don't see all religions as a threat to mankind...but Islam is.



How can you separate the 3 Moses inspired religions? Its the same god. Telling people what he wants and directing their actions (if you're willing to follow that).


----------



## Topkick (Jun 4, 2017)

You cant. But you can't tell people what to believe either


----------



## Topkick (Jun 4, 2017)

Islam says you will believe or you will pay...bullshit


----------



## pardus (Jun 4, 2017)

Topkick said:


> You cant. But you can't tell people what to believe either



Really? Isn't that the exact problem right there with religion!?
Christians are no better, probably murdered more people too.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 5, 2017)

pardus said:


> How can you separate the 3 Moses inspired religions? Its the same god. Telling people what he wants and directing their actions (if you're willing to follow that).



The three Abrahamic faiths might have the same god, but they have very different interpretations of how their god wants them to live their lives.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 5, 2017)

In one area that I have the biggest problem with religion, is politics.  As @pardus stated, getting in the way of science.  There are amazing breakthroughs in stem cell research, genetic mapping, and genetic alterations. That could in fact cure or fix much of the illnesses within not only the human species but many animal species. They are being blocked by laws and regulations brought on by bible clutching politicians.  I think that is fucking stupid.

I also think Islam is fucking stupid, as it's a barbaric and archaic belief system that is built on a lie that it's a religion of peace. I don't blame the ignorant people of the muslim world for their blind following. It's what they know and what their fucked up tribal culture demands them to follow.  However, these religious leaders, who know they are using the smoke and mirrors of religion to control the masses is what sends me into a "kill them all rage".

I'm not against religion, quite the contrary.  However, I am firmly against extreme interpretation and practice.  Especially when it used to restrict others freedom's and lifestyle.


----------



## Gunz (Jun 5, 2017)

pardus said:


> Until we as a species realise that religion is fake and inherently evil, this shit will never, ever end.



When I wrote that there were some aspects of Islamic justice that I admire, I was thinking more of Saudi punishments for serious criminals...not stoning women for adultry or beheading infidels. I should've made that clear although it was an off-the-cuff response to @CQB s post.


----------



## CQB (Jun 5, 2017)

I have to agree with Brother @pardus. The Old Testament is pretty much a collection of stories with a rubbery historical context & not that reliable, but the western tradition has been smart enough to the worth of the best of it and reserved decisions on the more extreme verses. The Christian tradition has slavery and the whole horror show in the Old Testament, but we figured out that certain practices were redundant. Funnily enough, Islam is based on the Old Testament stories, for as desert Arabs had no tradition of their own Mohammed looked to the Jews to provide parables to illustrate his message. The Koran is littered with Old Testament Prophets. The word of God...roit...bunch of fairy tales. It is however, a peaceful and supportive religion at its' core as reading some interpretations of the Q Society lead me to believe. As for the extremist minority...there's no hell fire hot enough.


----------



## Topkick (Jun 5, 2017)

pardus said:


> Christians are no better, probably murdered more people too.



Yep! Any religious group which uses their ideology as an excuse to kill or oppress... is the problem, which leads right back to my OP. We agree that religion is and always has been a  problem, and as I stated, the only solution is that each man be responsible for ONLY his own version of the afterlife. That will never happen because religion is used as an excuse to wreak havoc on others.


----------



## Topkick (Jun 5, 2017)

CQB said:


> It is however, a peaceful and supportive religion



Peaceful at its core? I cant agree.

I shall cast terror into the hearts of the infidels. Strike off their heads, strike off the very tips of their fingers.

Quran 8:12


----------



## DocIllinois (Jun 5, 2017)

CQB said:


> I have to agree with Brother @pardus. The Old Testament is pretty much a collection of stories with a rubbery historical context & not that reliable, but the western tradition has been smart enough to the worth of the best of it and reserved decisions on the more extreme verses. The Christian tradition has slavery and the whole horror show in the Old Testament, but we figured out that certain practices were redundant. Funnily enough, Islam is based on the Old Testament stories, for as desert Arabs had no tradition of their own Mohammed looked to the Jews to provide parables to illustrate his message. The Koran is littered with Old Testament Prophets. The word of God...roit...bunch of fairy tales.* It is however, a peaceful and supportive religion at its' core as reading some interpretations of the Q Society lead me to believe.* As for the extremist minority...there's no hell fire hot enough.



I'm with @Topkick on this one.   Have you read the Koran?  Its _ad nauseam_ full of entries which lay the groundwork for waging holy war.

Islam is a religion of militant conquest, with world being divided between the "House of Islam" and the "House of War."  This should indicate how Muslims ultimately view the means by which non believers will be dealt with.  I have yet to see so-called moderate Muslims opposing this doctrine in anything close to a meaningful way.

(FWIW, I'm no great fan of any other religion, either.)


----------



## CQB (Jun 5, 2017)

Yes, the Sword verses & others, agree totally & I've read it reluctantly, to get a sense of what motivates them & agree again it's a religion that seeks to convert actively. The Quilliam Society publish a different slant on Islam, are progressive & challenge the extremist interpretation. There are moderates out there but they don't sell newspapers or get airtime like Anjem Choudary & others do.


----------



## Topkick (Jun 5, 2017)

There are several verses in the Koran which authorize lies and deception to outsiders if to further the cause. So how can you know without a doubt that there are peaceful people within this community?


----------



## CQB (Jun 5, 2017)

That's a good point and one I understand. My view is you can be friendly, but they'll never be your friends for that reason. It's them that have that view  not us and forewarned is forearmed.


----------



## DocIllinois (Jun 5, 2017)

CQB said:


> Yes, the Sword verses & others, agree totally. The Quilliam Society publish a different slant on Islam and are progressive. There are moderates out there but they don't sell newspapers or get airtime like Anjem Choudary & others do.



You've hit the crux of the problem with holy books altogether, certainly the books of the three Abrahamic religions. 

There are Muslims out there who take a different, more violence justifying slant to the Koran - more than enough to be a genuine scourge upon civilization at this point, obviously. 

By what measure does one decide that another's interpretation (view) of a verse isn't the "right" one?  Because it just doesn't make sense in the modern day?  How much sense do we really expect a book(s) written by desert people living in abysmal ignorance in the 14th Century to make?


----------



## Topkick (Jun 5, 2017)

It still makes sense to them. They fight against evolution.


----------



## Topkick (Jun 5, 2017)

Some "experts" even believe that the peaceful Islamic posture is part of the jihad strategy. Without pretending to be peaceful there could be no infiltration.


----------



## CQB (Jun 5, 2017)

DocIllinois said:


> You've hit the crux of the problem with holy books altogether, certainly the books of the three Abrahamic religions.
> 
> There are Muslims out there who take a different, more violence justifying slant to the Koran - more than enough to be a genuine scourge upon civilization at this point, obviously.
> 
> By what measure does one decide that another's interpretation (view) of a verse isn't the "right" one?  Because it just doesn't make sense in the modern day?  How much sense do we really expect a book(s) written by desert people living in abysmal ignorance in the 14th Century to make?



It makes as much sense as following the beliefs of a 30 year old carpenter who arrived in town on a donkey, allegedly immaculately conceived and once dead, came back to life. You can put that together with Mohammed ascending to heaven on winged horse. But I digress. It doesn't make sense to me to regress to another time in any way, shape or form. the one thing that _really _makes me angry is the moral high ground that they claim to inhabit. 

@Topkick, it's a religion that seeks converts, as does Christianity. One question that needs to be asked: why do they have to kill to be considered pius?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jun 5, 2017)

Islam doesn't seem to want to have a reformation, which it severely needs.  Every single power base likes preaching Jihad.  From the Wahhabis, to the Salafis, even to the Shias.  Not one of them wants coexistence.  And we're perfectly happy supporting the worst of them.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 5, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Islam doesn't seem to want to have a reformation, which it severely needs.  Every single power base likes preaching Jihad.  From the Wahhabis, to the Salafis, even to the Shias.  Not one of them wants coexistence.  And we're perfectly happy supporting the worst of them.



It took Christianity 1400 some years... I think they will figure it out. You should go to the Middle East and let them know your thoughts IMO...


----------



## CQB (Jun 5, 2017)

As discussed, the Quilliam Society is an interesting outfit. The Enhaddha Party in Tunisia is another who have made some changes as well. I do agree though that the process will be a long one.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jun 5, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> It took Christianity 1400 some years... I think they will figure it out. You should go to the Middle East and let them know your thoughts IMO...


That's not an excuse in the information age.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 5, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> That's not an excuse in the information age.



To bring about seismic shifts in religion and culture instantly and because others say it should be done? Or you going to Saudi to preach reformation?


----------



## Salt USMC (Jun 5, 2017)

Topkick said:


> There are several verses in the Koran which authorize lies and deception to outsiders if to further the cause. So how can you know without a doubt that there are peaceful people within this community?


This bears some explanation because I see it so often.  The practice you're referring to, _taqqiya_, requires some context.  It's a controversial topic and there is a distinct split between the Sunni and Shiite interpretations of the practice.  The verses you're referring to were written at a time when Islam was still expanding and Muslims often came into conflict with local religious authorities.  The practice was permitted when followers faced extreme persecution - they were allowed to deny their faith in the face of death or dismemberment.  Now that Islam is a large religion, Sunni theologians generally say that _taqqiya_ is not permissible except in the most extreme circumstances.

The Shiite view comes from a similar context.  Under the Abbasid Caliphs, the followers of 'Ali were essentially rooted out and forced to renounce their beliefs or be put to the sword.  The Shiites essentially lived as a minority sect until about the 16th century when the Safavids came to prominence.  Because they lived for so long as a persecuted minority, their view on _taqqiya_ came to encompass more situations where the practice was permitted, which included _jihad_.  

Now you also have to consider that only about 10% of the world's Muslim population are Shiite.  And even then, how many of them are devout enough to care about the practice of concealing their faith in the conduct of _jihad_?  You're talking about a minority within a minority.  

Really, _taqqiya_ is not something that anyone needs to worry about.


----------



## Topkick (Jun 5, 2017)

Disagree that nobody should be concerned. Some verses speak specifically about deceiving non believers. The use of deception is the only way to infiltrate and conquer. If we know that is the motive we don't allow it to happen. I am not referring to lies about saving your ass from another sect but more about a long term strategy.


----------



## Il Duce (Jun 5, 2017)

Anne Lamont once said 'You know you've created God in your own image when he hates all the same people you do' - I think that's a fair assessment of many folks' religious beliefs more than the textual interpretation of faith.


----------



## DocIllinois (Jun 6, 2017)

Il Duce said:


> Anne Lamont once said 'You know you've created God in your own image when he hates all the same people you do' - I think that's a fair assessment of many folks' religious beliefs more than the textual interpretation of faith.



All notions and images of gods are imaginary.

There is no evidence to demonstrate that any one image is better, or more true, than any other, or even to demonstrate that supernatural beings which inform our existence are real at all.

Despite the above, the inability of the religious fundamentalist to bear the thought that anyone would worship a god notion before their own, though, is used to justify behavior toward others ranging from annoying to truly evil.


----------



## CQB (Jun 6, 2017)

It's an irony that some of us have had to become amateur Islamic scholars and with my own journey of discovery, I wish I didn't have to undertake it but it does come in handy, even if it's been done with gritted teeth. 

The 'wrong interpretation' theory when you discuss it with Muslims. There's only three that matter, quote one of those and that argument goes away. 
The 'out of context' argument. Similarly, know the context and it disappears too. 
No, I'm not going to study the Hadiths, there's too many and some are just too bizarre. 
I've had some good chats with some of those guys and it's worth the challenge.


----------



## Topkick (Jun 6, 2017)

CQB said:


> One question that needs to be asked: why do they have to kill to be considered pius?



The radicals use verses like this to justify it;

*Surah 3:85, “If anyone desires a religion other than Islam, never will it be accepted of him.”   Here the definition of Islam must be taken in its global context of surrendering and submission to One and Only One God. *


----------



## Gunz (Jun 6, 2017)

DocIllinois said:


> ...How much sense do we really expect a book(s) written by desert people living in abysmal ignorance in the 14th Century to make?...





CQB said:


> ...It doesn't make sense to me to regress to another time in any way, shape or form...




It don't make much sense to look to the future, either.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 6, 2017)

CQB said:


> The Quilliam Society...



Isn't Quilliam the group that is named after a Brit who converted to Islam, swearing allegiance to the Ottomans and urging a worldwide caliphate?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jun 6, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> Isn't Quilliam the group that is named after a Brit who converted to Islam, swearing allegiance to the Ottomans and urging a worldwide caliphate?


That is correct.  Considering they lobby Western Governments rather than lobbying ME governments I don't find them interesting at all.


----------



## CQB (Jun 6, 2017)

True, that's the origin of the name. The current founders are all ex-members of Hizb -ut Tahrir who have taken a different view and broke away. They do some good CVE work.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 6, 2017)

I'll take your word for it because I've never heard of them before.  It's interesting that the accomplishments on their Wikipedia page feature things like  condemnation of Israel, confronting Geert Wilders, and defending the burqa.  Doesn't sound very CVE-y to me.


----------



## CQB (Jun 6, 2017)

Two out of three isn't a bad score, to be clear there are white extremists as well & the burqa issue is for them is a laissez faire approach. If their dialogue has the effect of lowering threat, I'm for it, instead of the alternative, mass murder.


----------



## Topkick (Jun 6, 2017)

CQB said:


> Two out of three isn't a bad score, to be clear there are white extremists as well & the burqa issue is for them is a laissez faire approach. If their dialogue has the effect of lowering threat, I'm for it, instead of the alternative, mass murder.



Or are we being deceived? Communicating that something is tolerable can facilitate infiltration. If you don't convince the people that you are peaceful, they won't let you in.


----------



## CQB (Jun 6, 2017)

...as discussed & understood, as in my discussions with certain gentlemen the conversation leads to them whipping out photos of dead Palestinian children and asking do I think this is fair? I'm not convinced, never will be & they can try, but their Jedi mind tricks don't really have much effect. As I've said previously, there are white extremists as well, there are good examples in the US stretching back to the Weathermen. Anders Breivic is another, it's not exclusively defined to one culture & history is also instructive, starting with the Zealots.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jun 13, 2017)

I just don't get folks like this, especially taking their kids into this hell hole: Thousands of Iraqis have fled Mosul, but this American family moved in


----------



## CQB (Jun 14, 2017)

I appreciate the sentiment, but putting their kids at risk? :-/


----------



## Gunz (Jun 14, 2017)

Brave fools.

Grudging respect for putting _yourself_ in peril to help those in need...but you're a dick for dragging the whole family into your little corner of Hell. ISIS would like those tender young necks...

And by the way, you look like you're enjoying the publicity a little too much...


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jun 19, 2017)

Russia says it will treat US-led coalition planes in Syria, west of the Euphrates, as targets after US downed Syrian jet

Well, no wonder they aren't approving UQRs.  Warfooting it is.


----------



## AWP (Jun 19, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Russia says it will treat US-led coalition planes in Syria, west of the Euphrates, as targets after US downed Syrian jet
> 
> Well, no wonder they aren't approving UQRs.  Warfooting it is.



I've watched our C2 capabilities increase by about 60% or so over the last two years and I've seen a noticeable increase in our defensive posture in the last 6 months. The Russians are linesteppers and provocateurs, so this doesn't surprise me. We've literally said, and when I first heard this I thought it was a joke, "I wonder if I'll be on shift when WWIII breaks out." There are so many dynamics at play, but the US/ Russia angle typically receives all of the press' attention (for good reason but it is shortsighted), while other equally important areas are ignored.

Despite all of that we are making progress against ISIS, but years in Afghanistan have biased me towards a loss we won't call a loss. I hope I'm wrong this time around.


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 19, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Russia says it will treat US-led coalition planes in Syria, west of the Euphrates, as targets after US downed Syrian jet
> 
> Well, no wonder they aren't approving UQRs.  Warfooting it is.


UQR?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jun 20, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> UQR?


I got out in March so that statement isn't about me specifically.  But When Officers choose to leave the service they must submit and Un-Qualified Resignation (Refrad).  I know of five guys in various MOSs who were denied their resignation by HRC in the last two months.  All O-3s.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 20, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> UQR?


^what Thunderhorse said.  UQR is the standard way officers leave the service short of retirement.


----------



## AWP (Jul 7, 2017)

A ceasefire in southwestern Syria? Oh, this will be fun to watch. Color me cynical as usual.

Partial ceasefire deal reached in Syria, in Trump's first peace effort



> The United States, Russia and Jordan reached a ceasefire and "de-escalation agreement" for southwestern Syria on Friday, as the U.S. government under President Donald Trump made its first attempt at peacemaking in the country's six-year-old civil war.
> 
> The ceasefire, due to start at noon Damascus time (0900 GMT) on Sunday, was announced after a meeting between Trump and Russian President Vladimir Putin at the G20 summit of major economies in the German city of Hamburg.
> 
> U.S. Secretary of State Rex Tillerson said the area covered by the ceasefire affects Jordan’s security and is a “very complicated part of the Syrian battlefield.”


----------



## pardus (Jul 8, 2017)

Wait... So the three parties all fighting against another party, said that they will stop fighting? When I was in school, the side that stopped fighting was generally called the loser of the war... :-/


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 13, 2017)

Some good footage and an interview with a Syrian MP.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jul 13, 2017)

Good reporting.....looks like cities in Germany after WWII


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 19, 2017)

Finally: Trump ends covert CIA program to arm anti-Assad rebels in Syria, a move sought by Moscow


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 19, 2017)

Oh, we decided to end a program which, at one point, was costing us $500 million for 60 recruits?  Sounds OK to me.


----------



## RackMaster (Jul 19, 2017)

Canadians are working on arming the Kurds they are training.

Special forces take over ‘urgent’ weapons purchase for Kurds, but there’s no timeline


----------



## AWP (Jul 19, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> Oh, we decided to end a program which, at one point, was costing us $500 million for 60 recruits?  Sounds OK to me.



If they decided to actually fight it could be a better ROI than Afghanistan.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 22, 2017)

As I've said from time-to-time, sometimes Daily Mail is like visiting a toy store...fun things to look at:

ISIS fighters dress as women with make-up to flee Mosul | Daily Mail Online


----------



## AWP (Jul 22, 2017)

I ought to ban @Ooh-Rah for posting that mess.


----------



## RackMaster (Jul 23, 2017)

AWP said:


> I ought to ban @Ooh-Rah for posting that mess.



It's not his fault you're attracted to the bearded "lady".


----------



## Grunt (Jul 23, 2017)

That picture serves as proof that they are clowns!


----------



## RackMaster (Sep 16, 2017)

Next phase in the destruction of Daesh.

Canadian special forces leave Mosul, preparing for new battle against ISIL stronghold


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 16, 2017)

So I suppose we're entering Phase II of the Iraqi Civil War: Pentagon says Iraqi train-and-equip mission could end if attacks on Kurds continue


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 16, 2017)

I can't see the Kurds just giving up all the land they took over.....I'm sure Turkey is not happy it.  And on the Shia side...the militia's under the PMF won't be disbanded, even when ISIS is defeated. 

Looks like it will be back to the plain jane Sunni vs Shia struggle.  We really need to sidestep this next phase after ISIS


----------



## Gunz (Dec 22, 2017)

ISIS loss of controlled territory, Jan 2015 to Dec 2017. The maps show the most progress since January of this year. 

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQnPAlTWkAAnFqj.jpg:large


----------



## Gunz (Dec 23, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> I can't see the Kurds just giving up all the land they took over.....I'm sure Turkey is not happy it.  And on the Shia side...the militia's under the PMF won't be disbanded, even when ISIS is defeated.
> 
> Looks like it will be back to the plain jane Sunni vs Shia struggle.  *We really need to sidestep this next phase after ISIS*




Next phase is a free-for-all regional clusterfuck as all the various factions turn their weapons on each other. Yes, absolutely, we need to GTFO and let them all kill each other. Otherwise we get caught up in multiple conflicts with no unifying objective.


----------



## Grunt (Dec 23, 2017)

The thing I liked about our military - and one of the main reasons I joined - is that it is mission oriented. We long ago achieved whatever mission we had there (ME). We are know like a rudderless ship going along with the ebb and flow of the tides. We need to have our Warriors come home, be with their families, rest, continue training, and be prepared for the next threat that actually threatens us (the US) and not continue sending our Warriors over there for anything at this point. Let those people learn to defend themselves or forever be victims. It's their choice...not ours. 

ISIS has become so infiltrated by every thug that wants to impose their will on victims that in order to destroy them, our military would have to be allowed to go full bore over there and start destroy things with impunity. That won't happen...thus, ISIS shall remain. It's their problem and not ours. Let them clean their houses and let our guys clean ours.


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 23, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> ISIS loss of controlled territory, Jan 2015 to Dec 2017. The maps show the most progress since January of this year.
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQnPAlTWkAAnFqj.jpg:large



Looks like ISIS pretty much got an ass kicking.  Not seeing a lot about this in my feeds.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Dec 23, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> ISIS loss of controlled territory, Jan 2015 to Dec 2017. *The maps show the most progress since January of this year.*
> 
> https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DQnPAlTWkAAnFqj.jpg:large




Im getting so old my memory sucks...remind me when Gen Mattis and President Trump took over!?!?!!???!?!


----------



## TLDR20 (Dec 23, 2017)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Im getting so old my memory sucks...remind me when Gen Mattis and President Trump took over!?!?!!???!?!



Half way through that..


----------



## Frank S. (Dec 23, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> As I've said from time-to-time, sometimes Daily Mail is like visiting a toy store...fun things to look at:
> 
> ISIS fighters dress as women with make-up to flee Mosul | Daily Mail Online
> 
> View attachment 19224


----------



## AWP (Dec 23, 2017)

Agoge said:


> Post



I agree and I don't. Entities like ISIS...we can kill men but we can't kill ideas. We are going to have a global commitment for perhaps ever fighting these guys and the next generation+ of terrorists. With that said, some fights we should stay out off, especially anything devolving into a pure Sunni-Shiite war with minimal impact to the West. 

Our problem though is the state of our military. We have battle-tested ground forces, perhaps the best in the world, but our heavy armor's readiness is on the low end. Our aviation assets are hosed, be it spares, flight time, or manning; the AF alone is down by 2000 pilots/ aircrew. Dig up the readiness numbers for Marine and Naval aviation...they are horrible. The recent 3 carrier surge off Korea had to pull in a/c from training squadrons to fully staff the fighting squadrons. The Army's stuck in uniform and small arms procurement hell. The F-35 and Ford-class carrier programs are among the most mismanaged and wasteful in history. In short, we are both bad and badass. We need to address these issues if we're to remain a true global powerhouse militarily. 

We also lack a long term foreign policy across multiple administrations. If we can't fix this then our military's problems won't matter in the long run.

---

ISIS: Haters will hate, but Obama put the right pieces into play, they just weren't properly utilized. I've watched this from the air perspective and how amazingly well we've done despite blatant Russian interference and Iraqi incompetence. Our artillery, especially HIMARS, have done ridiculous things you rarely hear about in the press. We've dropped bodies like cholera, almost reminiscent of Afghanistan 2001, and reduced ISIS from a pseudo-state to a soon to be underground terrorist organization. We and the locals need to keep our foots on their throats or we can repeat this in a few years.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 24, 2017)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Im getting so old my memory sucks...remind me when Gen Mattis and President Trump took over!?!?!!???!?!



I didn't want to make that political interpretation...as tempting as it may be. As @AWP says, the pieces were in place. But it wouldn't surprise me if those pieces were shuffled into a more lethal efficiency by The Warrior Monk.


----------



## AWP (Jan 4, 2018)

While not entirely confirmed, a Russian media outlet says that 7 Russian planes were destroyed in Syria via indirect fire.

Report Says Multiple Aircraft At Russia's Air Base In Syria Destroyed In Attack

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/at-le...-at-syrian-air-base-kommersant-20180103-01061

Putin's said Russia will begin pulling out now that ISIS is defeated, but I don't see that happening after this attack. Pride won't allow him to cut and run just yet,


----------



## CQB (Jan 4, 2018)

More low level attacks from the Bashi Bazouks was anticipated & it won’t be the last.


----------



## RackMaster (Jan 4, 2018)

Canada's reevaluation of our mission.  Sadly with the current government, I doubt they'll authorize our guy's to go on the offensive.

What Canada's Iraqi military mission makeover could look like


----------



## Florida173 (Jan 4, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> Canada's reevaluation of our mission.  Sadly with the current government, I doubt they'll authorize our guy's to go on the offensive.
> 
> What Canada's Iraqi military mission makeover could look like



You say that, but don't forget that he was elected on the idea of reducing their footprint..  I remember our LNO saying that he doesn't know if he'll be here in the morning... Then he ended up increasing the footprint.

It'll be interesting to see what happens


----------



## Gunz (Jan 4, 2018)

AWP said:


> While not entirely confirmed, a Russian media outlet says that 7 Russian planes were destroyed in Syria via indirect fire.
> 
> Report Says Multiple Aircraft At Russia's Air Base In Syria Destroyed In Attack
> 
> ...



Maybe Putin lobs a few Parthian shots with RKB-500 cluster munitions on somebody or something...


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 4, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Maybe a few Parthian shots with RKB-500 cluster bomb munitions on somebody or something...


Not sure Russia was pulling out of that airfield, as they have a lease of it (perpetuity?)
Russian Generals screwed the pooch on this one.  No revetments, aircraft parked wing tip to wing tip (a-la Pearl Harbor circa 1941).
One lucky shot could have done all the damage.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 4, 2018)

Yeah, pretty sloppy defensive set up.


----------



## AWP (Feb 21, 2018)

The other day airstrikes and artillery blasticated a convoy heading for our guys. 100 dead, some believed to be Russian contractors, an all around good day, but the Russians denied they were involved until today.

Russia admits heavy casualties in Syria



> Russia's foreign ministry has confirmed that "several dozen" Russian citizens - not regular soldiers - were killed or wounded in a recent battle in Syria.
> 
> The statement did not give a date. Previously the Russian government said "probably five" Russians had died in a clash in Deir al-Zour province.
> 
> Some reports have said more than 100 Russian mercenaries were killed in US air strikes on 7 February.



I wonder how many of those guys were "sheep dipped" Spetsnaz...


----------



## Gunz (Feb 21, 2018)

Here's more:

Russia Warns US Not To 'Play With Fire' In Syria After Receiving Epic Beatdown


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 21, 2018)

Deir Ez Zour being the last stronghold of ISIS in Syria, why are we bombing Russians?


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 21, 2018)

AWP said:


> The other day airstrikes and artillery blasticated a convoy heading for our guys. 100 dead, some believed to be Russian contractors, an all around good day, but the Russians denied they were involved until today.
> 
> Russia admits heavy casualties in Syria
> 
> ...


Hopefully all of them.


----------



## 256 (Feb 23, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Deir Ez Zour being the last stronghold of ISIS in Syria, why are we bombing Russians?



My understanding was that the Euphrates River was being used as a “line in the sand.” The opposition forces (Russian mercenaries) started their movement/attack on an oil field probably not knowing that American units were there and they were dealt with. I also read that US personnel have a direct line to the Russians for deconflicting the battle-space but Russian denied its forces were involved.


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 23, 2018)

256 said:


> My understanding was that the Euphrates River was being used as a “line in the sand.” The opposition forces (Russian mercenaries) started their movement/attack on an oil field probably not knowing that American units were there and they were dealt with. I also read that US personnel have a direct line to the Russians for deconflicting the battle-space but Russian denied its forces were involved.



The Russian mercs knew the American's were there.


----------



## 256 (Feb 23, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> The Russian mercs knew the American's were there.



Bold move Russia, that’s a dangerous situation. Hoping our Canadian friends are ready to help..


----------



## AWP (Feb 23, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> The Russian mercs knew the American's were there.



That is an ABSOLUTE fact. There's no debating that at all.

This isn't the first time our guys were challenged, not even close to the first time. This is one of the few times where they didn't pull back and took a bloody nose for their efforts. Those men were sacrificed by their leadership; no more, no less.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 23, 2018)

256 said:


> Bold move Russia, that’s a dangerous situation. Hoping our Canadian friends are ready to help..


From the moment this thing started with funding of rebel groups our country's policy has been shit.  We didn't need to be in Syria, then add all of the redlines and the pussy footing around.  We've been at War in a place that doesn't have pizza or bikinis on the beach for a very long time.  It wasn't our fight, staying there does nothing for us except continue to waste blood and treasure.


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 23, 2018)

256 said:


> Bold move Russia, that’s a dangerous situation. Hoping our Canadian friends are ready to help..



Sadly with our current leadership, we won't do shit.


----------



## 256 (Feb 23, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> From the moment this thing started with funding of rebel groups our country's policy has been shit.  We didn't need to be in Syria, then add all of the redlines and the pussy footing around.  We've been at War in a place that doesn't have pizza or bikinis on the beach for a very long time.  It wasn't our fight, staying there does nothing for us except continue to waste blood and treasure.



Just a question and not necessarily exactly what I think but, as Americans do you don’t think it’s our duty to get involved? I agree that when one of our citizens/war fighters are killed fighting it pisses me off, and I question why they are there same as you. It seems our roots are deep in attempting to help others. My understanding is (at least in Syria) we’re there to kill ISIS? Doesn’t that help the world stabilize or am I being too naïve? Without our help wouldn’t ISIS still be doing public beheadings in Raqqa?

I see it too, and again this is where it makes the topic very complex for me but isn’t fighting dirt bags in other countries better than fighting them here (easy for a dude that is sitting on his couch watching a movie with his boy)? Especially with hard men that want to do nothing more than kill the enemies of our country. The flip side of that being, they may be more fighting for one another not so much the “mission/objective.” Insert a Hoot line from Blackhawk Down about politics, bullets, and a window. Maybe I have a difficult time on coming up with a stance because I’m not educated enough on the issues.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 23, 2018)

256 said:


> Just a question and not necessarily exactly what I think but, as Americans do you don’t think it’s our duty to get involved? I agree that when one of our citizens/war fighters are killed fighting it pisses me off, and I question why they are there same as you. It seems our roots are deep in attempting to help others. My understanding is (at least in Syria) we’re there to kill ISIS? Doesn’t that help the world stabilize or am I being too naïve? Without our help wouldn’t ISIS still be doing public beheadings in Raqqa?
> 
> I see it too, and again this is where it makes the topic very complex for me but isn’t fighting dirt bags in other countries better than fighting them here (easy for a dude that is sitting on his couch watching a movie with his boy)? Especially with hard men that want to do nothing more than kill the enemies of our country. The flip side of that being, they may be more fighting for one another not so much the “mission/objective.” Insert a Hoot line from Blackhawk Down about politics, bullets, and a window. Maybe I have a difficult time on coming up with a stance because I’m not educated enough on the issues.



I don't.  We should be calculated where we do get involved.  We armed rebel groups that either defected or were murdered by ISIS and pretty much armed ISIS for awhile based on that.  For the most part, none of those rebel groups fit our ideology of values.  But fuck it, it's not Assad so we're ok with it?  Even though women didn't have to cover their faces and could attend University before the country broke out in Civil War. Yet we're also partners with some of the worst regimes in the world when it comes to Womens and Human rights.  Stupid.

The longer we're at War, where people have no idea why, the less the American People have the stomach for it.  17 years in Afghanistan man, there are people enlisting that don't know what it was like right after 9/11.


----------



## 256 (Feb 23, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> I don't.  We should be calculated where we do get involved.  We armed rebel groups that either defected or were murdered by ISIS and pretty much armed ISIS for awhile based on that.  For the most part, none of those rebel groups fit our ideology of values.  But fuck it, it's not Assad so we're ok with it?  Even though women didn't have to cover their faces and could attend University before the country broke out in Civil War. Yet we're also partners with some of the worst regimes in the world when it comes to Womens and Human rights.  Stupid.
> 
> The longer we're at War, where people have no idea why, the less the American People have the stomach for it.  17 years in Afghanistan man, there are people enlisting that don't know what it was like right after 9/11.



Yeah, man. I certainly understand that. Seems Afghanistan will be Germany but with green on blue attacks mixed in with a helicopter crash every once in a while that claims too many. Robert O’Niell said in his book he had to get out because he wasn’t taking the danger of the job seriously anymore because he was numb to it. Say what you will about the man but that is a profound statement about how hard an “all volunteer” force has worked. Even more frustrating that the typical American citizen hasn’t been ask to sacrifice anything (great credit to our Vietnam brothers in that aspect). I give great credit to those enlisting now. I think we at least thought we could win something. Second time I’ve used this quote but..

”before we let them kill him (Saddam) we should ask him how to run the country (Iraq)...”


----------



## Gunz (Feb 23, 2018)

256 said:


> Just a question and not necessarily exactly what I think but, as Americans do you don’t think it’s our duty to get involved? I agree that when one of our citizens/war fighters are killed fighting it pisses me off, and I question why they are there same as you. It seems our roots are deep in attempting to help others. My understanding is (at least in Syria) we’re there to kill ISIS? Doesn’t that help the world stabilize or am I being too naïve? Without our help wouldn’t ISIS still be doing public beheadings in Raqqa?
> 
> I see it too, and again this is where it makes the topic very complex for me but isn’t fighting dirt bags in other countries better than fighting them here (easy for a dude that is sitting on his couch watching a movie with his boy)? Especially with hard men that want to do nothing more than kill the enemies of our country. The flip side of that being, they may be more fighting for one another not so much the “mission/objective.” Insert a Hoot line from Blackhawk Down about politics, bullets, and a window. Maybe I have a difficult time on coming up with a stance because I’m not educated enough on the issues.




Of course we have a duty to get involved. We helped create the situation in Iraq and ISIS took advantage of the power vacuum when we unassed the AO. Russia helped create the situation by backing the asshat regimes in Syria since the 1950s.

Look, when 9/11 happened, we vowed to fight terrorism globally. If burning people alive and cutting off their heads on video by radical Islamic jihadists isn't terrorism, WTF is? We've lost a lot of people fighting Fedayeen, AQ, TB and various and sundry Islamic terrorist bastards in OEF/OIF. Did all our folks die in vain, just to see some sadistic fucks come in and massacre everybody?

The bottom line is, ISIS is as much an enemy of America as AQ was and needs to be fucking hunted down and eradicated like the human cockroaches they are. It churns my guts to read about brave young Americans getting killed. But ISIS needs to die.


----------



## DA SWO (Feb 23, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Of course we have a duty to get involved. We helped create the situation in Iraq and ISIS took advantage of the power vacuum when we unassed the AO. Russia helped create the situation by backing the asshat regimes in Syria since the 1950s.
> 
> Look, when 9/11 happened, we vowed to fight terrorism globally. If burning people alive and cutting off their heads on video by radical Islamic jihadists isn't terrorism, WTF is? We've lost a lot of people fighting Fedayeen, AQ, TB and various and sundry Islamic terrorist bastards in OEF/OIF. Did all our folks die in vain, just to see some sadistic fucks come in and massacre everybody?
> 
> The bottom line is, ISIS is as much an enemy of America as AQ was and needs to be fucking hunted down and eradicated like the human cockroaches they are. It churns my guts to read about brave young Americans getting killed. But ISIS needs to die.


Disagree, the Iraqi government gutted the military leadership and put people in based on tribal allegiances, they had the equipment to fight ISIS and chose the wrong path.

No reason for us to be in Syria, I believe a President Clinton in the WH now would have led to a war with Russia over Syria, at least the current regime has delayed what might be the inevitable result of us going into Syria.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 23, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> Disagree, the Iraqi government gutted the military leadership and put people in based on tribal allegiances, they had the equipment to fight ISIS and chose the wrong path.
> 
> No reason for us to be in Syria, I believe a President Clinton in the WH now would have led to a war with Russia over Syria, at least the current regime has delayed what might be the inevitable result of us going into Syria.



But didn't we early on disband the entire Iraqi military and Ba'athist infrastructure? 

All I know is that ISIS is just another in the long line of jihadists who consider America the enemy, and therefore, we should reciprocate.


----------



## AWP (Feb 23, 2018)

ISIS would still be a thing without US involvement.
---

The MERV (Middle Euphrates River Valley) is the demarcation between our guys and the Russians/ Syrians. We have a direct line to the Russians and they're getting better about using it. With that said, they are habitual linesteppers. Our use of airpower is TIGHTLY controlled. This isn't "back in the day" where a GFC could declare a TIC and have "auto-CAS" at their disposal.

The Russians knew what they were doing..and so did we.

Now they've committed two of their Su-57 stealth fighters to the region. Let;s see how that escalation goes.


----------



## 256 (Feb 24, 2018)

AWP said:


> Now they've committed two of their Su-57 stealth fighters to the region. Let;s see how that escalation goes.




Scary/tense situation there...The typical American has no idea, add the fact Syria has used chemical weapons. I hope our dudes have their MOPP gear...


----------



## Gunz (Feb 24, 2018)

Let me clarify my post. I believe it was our duty as part of the GWOT to help fight the cancer that ISIS became. I don't think it's our duty to stay involved once ISIS has been driven back into the shadows. I don't think it's our duty to linger and become involved in the Syrian clusterfuck beyond the material support of certain factions we've already made commitments to. Small footprint once ISIS dissolves as a cohesive entity and GTFO.

Or is that not possible anymore? @AWP ? Are we entrenched with no exit strategy here? ISIS is beoming less of a factor every day.


----------



## SaintKP (Feb 24, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Let me clarify my post. I believe it was our duty as part of the GWOT to help fight the cancer that ISIS became. I don't think it's our duty to stay involved once ISIS has been driven back into the shadows. I don't think it's our duty to linger and become involved in the Syrian clusterfuck beyond the material support of certain factions we've already made commitments to. Small footprint once ISIS dissolves as a cohesive entity and GTFO.
> 
> Or is that not possible anymore? @AWP ? Are we entrenched with no exit strategy here? ISIS is beoming less of a factor every day.




I can't speak for the soup sandwich that is the ME, however ISIS has already made inroads to SE Asia not to mention the various other Islamic terror organizations that have cropped up in the region as well as the long standing issue of Africa. 

The GWOT is something that can in my opinion never be won, atleast with the current measures in place every terror group we push back into the shadows a new one will take it's place. It's easy to destroy the physical (ISIS infrastructure, etc.) however it's almost impossible to destroy an ideology.


----------



## AWP (Feb 24, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Or is that not possible anymore? @AWP ? Are we entrenched with no exit strategy here? ISIS is beoming less of a factor every day.



I honestly don't know that.



SaintKP said:


> it's almost impossible to destroy an ideology.



You can kill a man, you can't kill an idea. The best you can do is make that idea cost prohibitive to its followers so that fewer and fewer people follow the idea.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 24, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> I can't speak for the soup sandwich that is the ME, however ISIS has already made inroads to SE Asia not to mention the various other Islamic terror organizations that have cropped up in the region as well as the long standing issue of Africa.
> 
> The GWOT is something that can in my opinion never be won, atleast with the current measures in place every terror group we push back into the shadows a new one will take it's place. It's easy to destroy the physical (ISIS infrastructure, etc.) however it's almost impossible to destroy an ideology.




I agree that it can never be won militarily. Only time will devolve Islamic jihadist fanaticism and for all we know the time-frame could be another 200 years or more, given its roots and resiliency. We will never see the end of terrorism, Islamic or not, because it is a cheap and dirty empowerment of the angry, discontented weak.


----------



## AWP (Apr 7, 2018)

Another attack with chemical agents? If true, let's see if Trump does anything.

If Reports Of Deadly Gas Attack In Syria Are True Will U.S. Strike As Promised?


----------



## Chopstick (Apr 9, 2018)

"Massive Explosions" Heard Above Syria Amid Reports Of Fighter Jets Airstrikes; Pentagon Denies

AP tweets: "U.S. Officials : The United States is not carrying out airstrikes in Syria."


----------



## Devildoc (Apr 9, 2018)

@Chopstick , I wonder if this is what happened:

Israel blamed for missile strike in Syria; 14 reported dead :: WRAL.com


----------



## Blizzard (Apr 9, 2018)

One time, I'd like us to just say, "Damned right it was us and if you keep using that shit we're bringing it right downtown, you skanky bitches."


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 9, 2018)

Blizzard said:


> One time, I'd like us to just say, "Damned right it was us and if you keep using that shit we're bringing it right downtown, you skanky bitches."


Watch your Twitter feed....


----------



## Gunz (Apr 9, 2018)

Good for Israel. And I doubt very much the claims that Syria shot down 5 IAF F15s during the attack.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 10, 2018)

Are we really gonna do this?  If so I'd like to see the amount of recall orders are being generated right now.


----------



## AWP (Apr 11, 2018)

I know we've touched upon GPS-jamming in the past, so this isn't a surprise.

The Russians Are Jamming US Drones in Syria Because They Have Every Reason To Be



> On April 10, 2018, NBC News, citing anonymous U.S. government sources, reported that Russia had been launching electronic warfare attacks against unspecified American unmanned planes for weeks.


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 9, 2018)

I'm guessing this is a smoke em if you got em type a night.  Well, gonna be shitty. Israeli army attacks Iranian targets in Syria in retaliation for strike on Golan Heights


----------



## 757 (May 10, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> I'm guessing this is a smoke em if you got em type a night.  Well, gonna be shitty. Israeli army attacks Iranian targets in Syria in retaliation for strike on Golan Heights



I'm just glad Hezbollah didn't start firing since I have family in country at the moment


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 19, 2018)

Just great.



> BAGHDAD—Shiite cleric Moqtada al-Sadr’s political coalition has won the most seats in Iraq’s parliamentary elections, according to complete results released by the electoral commission.
> The announcement came nearly a week after Iraqis cast their votes on May 12 and put Iraqi Prime Minister Haider al-Abadi in third place, according to seat allocations. An alliance of candidates with close ties to mostly Iranian-backed paramilitary forces came in second.
> “Your vote is an honor for us,” Mr. Sadr said in a statement released on Twitter just moments after the official announcement early Saturday.
> 
> ...


Populist Cleric Sadr’s Coalition Wins Iraqi Election


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 8, 2018)

So, Iraqi civilians stormed and set fire to the Iranian consulate in Basra: Iraqi protesters set fire to Iran consulate


----------



## runninrunninrunnin (Sep 8, 2018)

That’s one hell of a bonfire.


----------



## CQB (Sep 9, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> So, Iraqi civilians stormed and set fire to the Iranian consulate in Basra: Iraqi protesters set fire to Iran consulate



The Iran/Iraq border in the south has not been agreed on for some time. Even here we have this problem now & then. Got caught in a rolling brawl at an Iranian national day celebration between some Iranians and a group of Iraqis who cruised in for the rumble. They lost.


----------



## Kraut783 (Sep 9, 2018)

Sunni vs Shia.....the struggle continues to go on...nothing to see here, business as usual.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 11, 2018)

Fox News: US Navy fighter pilot receives valor award for shooting down Syrian jet in 2017.
US Navy fighter pilot receives valor award for shooting down Syrian jet in 2017

Congrats, you did your job. Now because this is something someone hasn't done in a while, here's a medal. Typical officer cronyism


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 11, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Fox News: US Navy fighter pilot receives valor award for shooting down Syrian jet in 2017.
> US Navy fighter pilot receives valor award for shooting down Syrian jet in 2017
> 
> Congrats, you did your job. Now because this is something someone hasn't done in a while, here's a medal. Typical officer cronyism


Diude is uuuge!


----------



## AWP (Sep 11, 2018)

He kept pulling the trigger until he found a missile that worked.

We have a bunch of pilots who should have medals just for keeping a cool head. Fucking Russians...


----------



## Gunz (Sep 11, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Fox News: US Navy fighter pilot receives valor award for shooting down Syrian jet in 2017.
> US Navy fighter pilot receives valor award for shooting down Syrian jet in 2017
> 
> Congrats, you did your job. Now because this is something someone hasn't done in a while, here's a medal. Typical officer cronyism




...and Syrian pilots aren't exactly known for winning dogfights...just ask Israel. 

Hey, not to take away from Lt Cmdr Tremel's day in the sun, he done did good...but, yeah, you're kinda supposed to shoot at your enemies...


----------



## The Hate Ape (Nov 15, 2018)

The Hate Ape said:


> It really is that simple. ISIS is bullshit pump-and-dump, Ponzi-scheme terrorist organization. Not fascinating, intimidating, or worth half-the-hype they have regardless of how many idiots they attract from around the world with Twitter or whatever.
> 
> I cannot wait for the US to fully drop the hammer on these clowns, after about a six month campaign you’d probably see stacks of Daesh bodies burning at the borders on the horizon.



Couldn't help but recall posting this almost exactly two years ago. I feel like Nostradamus.


----------



## 4859 (Nov 16, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Diude is uuuge!
> 
> View attachment 24057



Well, if the missile misfired he could have just popped the cockpit, done a fly by,  and punched the bastard down.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 19, 2018)

https://www.cnn.com/2018/12/19/politics/us-syria-withdrawal/index.html

As I've stated in this thread I never thought we should have been there and felt we only further destabilized the country when the majority of the "moderates" that we supported were not moderate on an American scale.  Now...to just leave Afghanistan and Iraq...


----------



## PDL (Dec 20, 2018)

This was a ballsy move by Trump.  Yes, the Pentagon doesn't like it but that is why there is a civilian leader of the military.  The Pentagon is not unbiased.


----------



## CQB (Dec 20, 2018)

A draw down of 2,000. I seem to remember there where _a lot _more there over time.


----------



## Brill (Jun 19, 2019)

Apparently they still have support inside the US.

Pittsburgh resident, Syrian man arrested on terrorism charges after planning attack on Christian church


----------



## BloodStripe (Jun 19, 2019)

They are also growing in Afghanistan. I wouldn't be shocked to see us start funding the Taliban again.


----------



## Centermass (Oct 27, 2019)

Still awaiting DNA confirmation, but it looks like this time, it's for real. 



> The United States military has conducted a special operations raid targeting one of its most high-value targets, Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi, the leader of the Islamic State militant group (ISIS), _Newsweek_ has learned. President Donald Trump approved the mission nearly a week before it took place. Amid reports Saturday of U.S. military helicopters over the Syria's northwestern Idlib province, a senior Pentagon official familiar with the operation and Army official briefed on the matter told _Newsweek_ that Baghdadi was the target of the top-secret operation in the last bastion of the country's Islamist-dominated opposition, a faction that has clashed with ISIS in recent years.
> 
> A U.S. Army official briefed on the results of the operation told _Newsweek_ that Baghdadi was killed in the raid, and the Defense Department told the White House they have "high confidence" that the high-value target killed was Baghdadi, but further verification is pending DNA and biometric testing. The senior Pentagon official said there was a brief firefight when U.S. forces entered the compound in Idlib's Barisha village and that Baghdadi then killed himself by detonating a suicide vest. Family members were present. According to Pentagon sources, no children were harmed in the raid but two Baghdadi wives were killed after detonating their own explosive vests.
> 
> Members of the Joint Special Operations Command's Delta Team carried out Saturday's high-level operation after receiving actionable intelligence, according to sources familiar with the operation. The location raided by special operations troops had been under surveillance for some time.



Trump approves Special Ops raid targeting ISIS leader Baghdadi and military says he's dead

Wack a mole or not, hopefully he's toast.


----------



## AWP (Oct 27, 2019)

Centermass said:


> Still awaiting DNA confirmation, but it looks like this time, it's for real.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Had to have been Green, I don't see any new movie deals announced on IMDB...


----------



## Brill (Oct 27, 2019)

My first thought this morning: is @Teufel TDY again????


----------



## Gunz (Oct 27, 2019)

CIA apparently.

And you guys made fun of that job listing.


----------



## Chopstick (Oct 27, 2019)

Watching the POTUS live right now.  Thanking not only our troops but Syria, Turkey, Russia, Iraq and the Kurds among others.


----------



## Brill (Oct 27, 2019)

It’s unfortunate that this will not be a unifying event for our country.


----------



## Chopstick (Oct 27, 2019)

Totally agree with you, @lindy


----------



## DasBoot (Oct 27, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> CIA apparently.
> 
> And you guys made fun of that job listing.


Highly doubt the CIA had a bunch of dudes in crye roping out of 60s... anyone who knows how the battle fields are broken up knows who did this (and who was likely there helping out).


----------



## Brill (Oct 27, 2019)

Zawahiri be like “shhh, you guys hear something?”


----------



## DasBoot (Oct 27, 2019)

This seems to confirm the Unit executing the raid... 


> *Delta Force's A-Squadron kills ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi*
> by Tom Rogan
> | October 27, 2019 08:24 AM
> 
> The _Washington Examiner_ is reliably informed that ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi is confirmed to be killed by an operation of the A-Squadron of the Army's Delta Force.



Delta Force's A-Squadron kills ISIS leader Abu Bakr al-Baghdadi


----------



## Brill (Oct 27, 2019)

CNN seems pissed off.


----------



## Teufel (Oct 27, 2019)

lindy said:


> My first thought this morning: is @Teufel TDY again????


----------



## Salt USMC (Oct 27, 2019)

Centermass said:


> Still awaiting DNA confirmation, but it looks like this time, it's for real.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Rot in hell, motherfucker


----------



## AWP (Oct 27, 2019)

And people think @Salt USMC and @lindy can't see eye-to-eye on things...


----------



## Grunt (Oct 27, 2019)

After reading the article, my first thought was simply that I am glad for the good news and that it is the start of a great day! 

As to who did it, I can truly care less...I'm just glad he has been eradicated from the Earth....


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 27, 2019)

DasBoot said:


> Highly doubt the CIA had a bunch of dudes in crye roping out of 60s... anyone who knows how the battle fields are broken up knows who did this (and who was likely there helping out).



Oh we know...


----------



## Hillclimb (Oct 27, 2019)

This is the 4th time we've killed him right? The first 3 in an airstrike?


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 27, 2019)

yeah, hoping this wasn't another look alike who blew himself up.


----------



## Salt USMC (Oct 27, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> yeah, hoping this wasn't another look alike who blew himself up.


If they were able to get a positive DNA match at the scene then it’s almost certainly the guy.
Lets not forget that unlike UBL, Baghdadi was in US custody for a time so they probably had his biometrics on file.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 27, 2019)

DasBoot said:


> Highly doubt the CIA had a bunch of dudes in crye roping out of 60s... anyone who knows how the battle fields are broken up knows who did this (and who was likely there helping out).



I posted that based on what my wife told me when I woke up: "Hey, the CIA got Bagdadi in a drone strike." I went right to the computer to get in a cross-thread ref. 

Brother (not faulting you for the correction) but it was my job for the better part of two decades, from the start of the Gulf War, through OIF and OEF, to hang around SOCOM and CENTCOM, writing about doctrinal missions and responsibilities of componants, sub-comands, compartmented elements, TTP, gear, weapons, history, aircraft, technology, comm, the larger integrated battle space, all that good shit...so I might look dumb and post dumb, I have at least a faint idea of what you hard chargers are doing out there...and sort of where you're doing it.


----------



## DasBoot (Oct 27, 2019)

RackMaster said:


> Oh we know...


Don’t you have maple syrup to chug and closet racist beta cuck Prime Minsters to elect?


----------



## Brill (Oct 27, 2019)

Damn, sounds he just died from natural causes. I guess coroners will now consider .300 blk as regularly occurring in nature.


----------



## DasBoot (Oct 27, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> I posted that based on what my wife told me when I woke up: "Hey, the CIA got Bagdadi in a drone strike." I went right to the computer to get in a cross-thread ref.
> 
> Brother (not faulting you for the correction) but it was my job for the better part of two decades, from the start of the Gulf War, through OIF and OEF, to hang around SOCOM and CENTCOM, writing about doctrinal missions and responsibilities of componants, sub-comands, compartmented elements, TTP, gear, weapons, history, aircraft, technology, comm, the larger integrated battle space, all that good shit...so I might look dumb and post dumb, I have at least a faint idea of what you hard chargers are doing out there...and sort of where you're doing it.


I know your history, I respect your experience more than you know, and enjoy your strangely-hip posts for being a crusty old vet... and because of these things I will continue to bust your balls for the remainder of our time on SS. Raise hell praise Dale heil Florida.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 27, 2019)

.


----------



## DasBoot (Oct 27, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> I live vicariously and learn through the lives and posts of young kick ass motherfuckers, like you...my three 20-something knuckleheads...and @AWP...without whom I would never have known what this is:
> 
> View attachment 30106
> 
> Thank you young Brother. RLTW.


I can’t unsee that shit...


----------



## Brill (Oct 27, 2019)

The sickness is spreading.


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 27, 2019)

WTH?  Does our media respect him?


----------



## Grunt (Oct 27, 2019)

lindy said:


> The sickness is spreading.



Yep...before long his image will be replacing the "Che" shirts. People can be pathetic creatures when they want to be....


----------



## Brill (Oct 27, 2019)

Vagabond said:


> Yep...before long his image will be replacing the "Che" shirts. People can be pathetic creatures when they want to be....



Think it’s too late.  Check out the comments. @Box clearly has competition as the sarcastic in Chief.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188473643321516032


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 27, 2019)

That Obit is like 2000 words, holy fuck.


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 27, 2019)

Good work onto the next.


----------



## Brill (Oct 28, 2019)

Good jousting match between our National Security Advisor and Chuck Todd.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 28, 2019)

Airspace de-confliction 101?  You'd think their producers would do some research here...


----------



## Devildoc (Oct 28, 2019)

Best thing that has happened since the unit-which-does-not-exist kicked out Jeff (long story).  I do wish they did not release it at all.  I also know, though, they will keep their pie-holes closed about the whole thing.


----------



## Brill (Oct 28, 2019)

Good piece that dissects the gnashing of teeth in the media over the latest story non-story.

*1) Positive News Coverage Hurts Media Efforts To Destroy Trump
2) ISIS Founder’s Death Complicates Media’s Syria Narrative
3) Trump Foreign Policy Successes Undermine Media Impeachment Drive*

Here Are The Real Reasons Media Lost Their Minds When Baghdadi Died


----------



## KM6371 (Oct 28, 2019)

Vagabond said:


> Yep...before long his image will be replacing the "Che" shirts. People can be pathetic creatures when they want to be....


What even is the big deal over the Che Guevara shirts, I thought I remembered hearing he wasn't the greatest person around to be idolizing


----------



## Grunt (Oct 28, 2019)

Kai Murray said:


> What even is the big deal over the Che Guevara shirts, I thought I remembered hearing he wasn't the greatest person around to be idolizing



Do some reading up on him. See if you can figure out why a lot of people your age are wearing his shirts. In my opinion, most don't know why they are wearing them except for the fact they think it's cool to do so. Let this be a learning experience for you and then you will be able to know why we don't really care for good ole' Che.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Oct 28, 2019)

Look at that smile, that's one happy pup!



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188909031403900928


----------



## KM6371 (Oct 28, 2019)

R.Caerbannog said:


> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188909031403900928
> Look at that smile, that's one happy pup!
> View attachment 30130


Bork Bork, Nom Nom


----------



## Brill (Oct 28, 2019)

WTF @R.Caerbannog , no black bar over his eyes? 

separately, this is a thing:


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Oct 28, 2019)

lindy said:


> WTF @R.Caerbannog , no black bar over his eyes?
> 
> separately, this is a thing:
> 
> View attachment 30132


Lol, Washington Post shitbag's are gonna shitbag. Also, doggo is too awesome for the black bar! It's like doggo's awesomeness is greater than that of Chuck Norris.


----------



## GOTWA (Oct 29, 2019)

I saw a news article this morning from an MSNBC segment; said Trump was the recruiting sergeant for ISIS because he was disrespectful during the news of Abu Buttfuck's death.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 29, 2019)

Special Ops Joint Task Force-OIR (Iraq/Syria) (@SOJTFOIR) | Twitter


----------



## Gunz (Oct 29, 2019)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Look at that smile, that's one happy pup!
> 
> View attachment 30131
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188909031403900928




TR is jealous.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Oct 29, 2019)

Gunz said:


> TR is jealous.


Awww, TR is such a good boy though. Maybe TR and Benny want treats or an unguarded plate of bacon, everyone loves bacon.


----------



## Devildoc (Oct 29, 2019)

Vagabond said:


> Do some reading up on him. See if you can figure out why a lot of people your age are wearing his shirts. In my opinion, most don't know why they are wearing them except for the fact they think it's cool to do so. Let this be a learning experience for you and then you will be able to know why we don't really care for good ole' Che.



But...but...Che' was a champion of the oppressed, a victor for the downtrodden   

Che' would be shitting his tighty-whities if he knew he was the face of The Gap....


----------



## Grunt (Oct 29, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> But...but...Che' was a champion of the oppressed, a victor for the downtrodden
> 
> Che' would be shitting his tighty-whities if he knew he was the face of The Gap....



Isn't that the truth...poor ole' Che.

I would have loved to have had the opportunity to punch him in his throat until it was mushy....


----------



## Brill (Oct 29, 2019)

GOTWA said:


> I saw a news article this morning from an MSNBC segment; said Trump was the recruiting sergeant for ISIS because he was disrespectful during the news of Abu Buttfuck's death.



He has some tough recruiting numbers to beat though. According to the media’s logic, Obama was the Emir of recruits for the hijrah.



> As of December 2015, approximately 30,000 fighters from at least 85 countries had joined the Islamic State of Iraq and Syria (ISIS).



https://www.nber.org/digest/jun16/w22190.html


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 29, 2019)

GOTWA said:


> I saw a news article this morning from an MSNBC segment; said Trump was the recruiting sergeant for ISIS because he was disrespectful during the news of Abu Buttfuck's death.


Morons, and if he escaped they say Trump was helping ISIS by his inability to kill the goat fucker.


----------



## Brill (Oct 29, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1188911807450288129


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Oct 29, 2019)

Ho lee fuk, glad that's not our problem. Although, if that camp isn't brought to heel it's going to create a shitload of problems for the region. For some reason though, I think a destabilized Syria might be good for the Turks.

Inside the ISIS prison camp 'little caliphate' breeding the next generation of jihadis


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 29, 2019)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Ho lee fuk, glad that's not our problem. Although, if that camp isn't brought to heel it's going to create a shitload of problems for the region. For some reason though, I think a destabilized Syria might be good for the Turks.
> 
> Inside the ISIS prison camp 'little caliphate' breeding the next generation of jihadis



Only solution is to execute them all.


----------



## Brill (Oct 29, 2019)

RackMaster said:


> Only solution is to execute them all.



No way; turn them loose on Russia.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 29, 2019)

The one in the purple burka is hawt.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Oct 29, 2019)

RackMaster said:


> Only solution is to execute them all.


Honestly, I'm just glad that isn't our problem. Might have been more humane to have firebombed ISIL's cities and strongholds, especially after what happened to their captives. Forensic archaeologists are going to be busy for decades when the area finally calms down.

I just hope to god our idiot liberal politicians, religious kooks, and well meaning idiots don't try to import these those people into the Americas.



lindy said:


> No way; turn them loose on Russia.


I get the feeling that Turkey might just do that to stir the pot and destabilize the RUS. Edrogan is a retard, but the people running Turkey's intel branches know what they're doing.


----------



## Jaknight (Oct 29, 2019)

I find it a bit crazy how most average Americans don’t seem to realize just how evil ISIS was and all it’s foul acts it committed. Thing is like a damn Movie,


----------



## Grunt (Oct 29, 2019)

Jaknight said:


> I find it a bit crazy how most average Americans don’t seem to realize just how evil ISIS was and all it’s foul acts it committed. Thing is like a damn Movie,



People tend to think selfishly. If ISIS hasn't *touched* them personally, they don't exist in their world. Many of us here have been touched by their actions in one way or another, or, we are aware of world events enough to know the danger they can eventually pose to the entire world. I guess that's why we refer to them as "average." They simply don't care about much other than themselves....


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 29, 2019)




----------



## Gunz (Oct 30, 2019)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Ho lee fuk, glad that's not our problem. Although, if that camp isn't brought to heel it's going to create a shitload of problems for the region. For some reason though, I think a destabilized Syria might be good for the Turks.
> 
> Inside the ISIS prison camp 'little caliphate' breeding the next generation of jihadis




These people are living in the 8th Century. The world is too small for people living in the 8th Century, especially when the sole purpose of their existence is mass murder. Luckily, we have enough bullets for all of them.


----------



## 757 (Oct 30, 2019)




----------



## R.Caerbannog (Oct 30, 2019)

Gunz said:


> These people are living in the 8th Century. The world is too small for people living in the 8th Century, especially when the sole purpose of their existence is mass murder. Luckily, we have enough bullets for all of them.


As much as I agree with you, I don't think a portion of the country shares the same sentiment. Even if we had done something, the Europeans and the cunt's at the UN would have screamed bloody murder.  It's worrisome how anti-American our media apparatus has become and how much influence outsiders have had in shaping our public's psyche. 

I dunno. At this stage, I'm unsure if the American public will stomach the unpleasantness of an increasingly interconnected world.


----------



## Kaldak (Oct 30, 2019)

The coasts will, for the majority of the populous, gladly embrace the interconnected world. At least for now. Most of the rest of the country won't. Unfortunately, the unpleasantness takes awhile to be fully felt. When it is felt, it is too late to easily change course.


----------



## Brill (Oct 30, 2019)

Twitter is melting down over the photoshop of Trump giving a medal to the nom nom.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1189653088036110341


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 31, 2019)




----------



## GOTWA (Nov 1, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> View attachment 30164


Not to be outdone...

Navy SEAL who killed Usama bin Laden: What you missed in video of al-Baghdadi raid | Fox News


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 1, 2019)

GOTWA said:


> Not to be outdone...
> 
> Navy SEAL who killed Usama bin Laden: What you missed in video of al-Baghdadi raid | Fox News


That fucker just cannot stand not being on TV.  Meanwhile....


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 1, 2019)




----------



## Devildoc (Nov 1, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> View attachment 30189



I want.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 1, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> I want.


Zero Bark Thirty T-Shirt


----------



## Gunz (Nov 1, 2019)

"I don't want to give away too many tactics," said O'Neill. "Anybody want a hotdog?"


----------



## AWP (Nov 1, 2019)

I've sat on the fence about this post, but here it goes. RE: airspace deconfliction and speaking to the Russians and Turks.

So, we have this thing called an ADLT, Air Defense Liaison Team. This article can explain it better than I can.
Allies in the Gulf

The Russians, Syrians, and Turks have some insane air defenses. Obviously, we know when their search radars are active within seconds of turning those on. These defenses range from fixed, long-range sites to very mobile sites and this is before we get into MANPADS and helicopter shredders like the ZSU-23. You absolutely, 100% want that ADLT to coordinate your strike package. If the Russians et. al. see you coming at them with a mass of fixed and rotary-winged aircraft, they aren't allowing that to happen. Our 5th gen aircraft don't fly in stealth mode and we've done this for so long everyone knows what they look like on radar PLUS they are squawking Mode 3 IFF which means other nations know what is heading their way.

Would you let a strike package into your country, especially one with helos which means you're bringing in troops?

The coordination that took place to make this happen bordered on stupid. A necessary stupid. The president making a courtesy call is a bit of overkill, but sound on a diplomatic level. Obama didn't need to do that, but Trump did. PK's air defenses and posture don't resemble, not for a second, what exists over Syria. Think what you will, but Russian and Turkish aircraft in the region aren't scoff worthy and coupled with the ADA presence means their defense in depth is formidable. It isn't just about "we're coming in to do a job" it is also "don't fly within this bubble" and "please vector civilian traffic  a certain distance away from point x." A bunch of officers including GO's watched the raid and were ready to let F-22's and F-35's do some wet work.

I handled Comms for the C2 side of airspace deconfliction. The coordination required for this raid was massive and the pressure on us maintainers to keep the network running (computers, radios, infrastructure, etc.) was..."sporty." I can only imagine what the operators (the Air Force refers to their C2 guys as such and "controllers" is reserved for ATC guys. These are two different worlds.) shouldered.

95% of you "got it" before this post, maybe this helps a few lurkers.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 2, 2019)

I'm glad you got off the fence. With all the different players in that region it amazes me--even with all the electronic safeguards--that there haven't been more incidents.


----------



## Brill (Nov 2, 2019)

You, @AWP , are “magic”.  

Separately,..but what about Trump’s failed Syria policies leading to the indisputable resurgence of ISIS and the Kurdish genocide?


----------



## AWP (Nov 2, 2019)

Gunz said:


> I'm glad you got off the fence. With all the different players in that region it amazes me--even with all the electronic safeguards--that there haven't been more incidents.



It speaks to the professionalism of our coalition partners (Our Ops floor has US, Brits, Aussies, Canadians, Puerto Ricans, Marines, and Danes), modern communications, and flat out hard work. A little luck has helped too. Once the Syrians had a Su-24 tracking toward some of our ground forces. We had a pair of Raptors slide in behind the guy and VID that his wings were slick. Still, can't have that near our folks so the -22's buzzed the guy and he promptly pulled a 180 and headed west. Back when clearing Mosul was a thing, the Russians fired crusie missiles or flew Tu-160's through our "stack" over the city. We're good neighbors, so we gave them escorts to show them around the neighborhood. Suddenly, the Soviets learned how to use a telephone...

We've had moments, but you set up a good DCA (Defensive Counter Air) orbit and send some -22's or -15E's their way. Eventually they grew tired of that game and found other things to do.

I can't get into numbers, but the amount of radar feeds and radios we connect to is pretty neat. It's a corny statement, but very true that "no comm, no bomb" and our limitations are other nations and our own staff process at CENTCOM and below. All of these years at war and the AF and Army still bicker over space at a FOB to support some radios or radar...Our TACPs are wonderful, but also worthless if we can't find gas for a CAS platform due to a lack of comms. Going to procedural control because of no radar coverage drives an operator's workload through the roof and injects risk into an already rough environment.

At the end of the day, one thing all air forces have in common, or should IMO, is that they exist to shoot down planes and drop bombs. As I've said over and over here at work: "We don't make cornflakes, we make widows and orphans." That's what a modern air force does and our coalition is very good at not making cornflakes.


----------



## GOTWA (Nov 2, 2019)

@AWP appreciate your knowledge and experience on a topic like this. Really puts things into perspective even though all we hear on the news is uncontrollable chaos. 

I'm new to the SOF world (Afghanistan), but I think I'm picking things up rather quickly. Its interesting how this place operates compared to the conventional side. It's not without its hiccups, but things sure do move a lot more smoothly, and with a lot more commonsense.


----------



## TheSiatonist (Nov 3, 2019)

Can't believe only 12 people appreciated AWP's post. 

Awesome insights, E.


----------



## KiloPapa (Nov 3, 2019)

@AWP Thanks for the insight, much appreciated.


----------



## Brill (Nov 3, 2019)

TheSiatonist said:


> Can't believe only 12 people appreciated AWP's post.
> 
> Awesome insights, E.



The sign out front clearly says:

No T, no A, no service.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 31, 2019)

So, there's was a nice little protest outside the US Embassy in Baghdad yesterday.  Protesters attack US embassy in Baghdad after airstrikes


----------



## KM6371 (Dec 31, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> So, there's was a nice little protest outside the US Embassy in Baghdad yesterday.  Protesters attack US embassy in Baghdad after airstrikes


I was watching the live feed from Washington Post this morning till about 950 when multiple "protesters" crowded the camera and it shut off. Last time I checked they have set fire to a corner of the building and were throwing cinder blocks at the windows to try breaking them.


----------



## KM6371 (Dec 31, 2019)




----------



## Salt USMC (Dec 31, 2019)

I guess it's good that we spent a bajillion dollars fortifying that place


----------



## KM6371 (Dec 31, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> I guess it's good that we spent a bajillion dollars fortifying that place


I don't know exactly what part of building they are at or exactly how big the building itself is, but from what I've heard, the security forces have retreated inside. The news reports keep saying gun shots were heard but I'm pretty sure they are some sort of non lethal weapon. Flash bangs and tear gas probably


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 31, 2019)

I wonder how many times the word “Benghazi” has been spoken by those directly affected by this over the past 24 hours.


----------



## RackMaster (Dec 31, 2019)

Reinforcements on the way. 

100 U.S. Marines, 2 Apache helicopters reinforcing embassy in Baghdad, Iraq, after attack


----------



## KM6371 (Dec 31, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I wonder how many times the word “Benghazi” has been spoken by those directly affected by this over the past 24 hours.


As soon as the notification woke me up at 4 AM this morning, I immediately thought of Benghazi


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 31, 2019)

KM6371 said:


> I don't know exactly what part of building they are at or exactly how big the building itself is, but from what I've heard, the security forces have retreated inside. The news reports keep saying gun shots were heard but I'm pretty sure they are some sort of non lethal weapon. Flash bangs and tear gas probably


The compound is 104 acre complex with a multi-layer defense plan.  Hard to get to the actual embassy building without being shot.


----------



## Blizzard (Dec 31, 2019)

Next steps will be interesting.

Militiamen breach US Embassy in Baghdad; Trump blames Iran


			
				From the article - my emphasis added said:
			
		

> Iraq has long struggled to balance its ties with the U.S. and Iran, both allies of the Iraqi government. But the government’s angry reaction to the U.S. airstrikes and its apparent decision not to prevent the protesters from reaching the embassy signaled a sharp deterioration of U.S.-Iraq relations.
> 
> *Iraqi security forces made no effort to stop the protesters* as they marched to the heavily fortified Green Zone after a funeral for those killed in the airstrikes. The demonstrators were allowed to pass through a security checkpoint leading to the area...
> 
> ...


Fuck both Iraq and Iran.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 31, 2019)

If only "Benghazi" would start to happen...let the Marines go hot, unleash the 64s.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Dec 31, 2019)

Looks like Iran and Al-Sadr are up to their bullshit again. Thanks again Obama.


----------



## BloodStripe (Dec 31, 2019)

100 Marines, 2 Apaches being sent to secure US Embassy in Iraq from Iran-backed group

Ive been a part of a State Department embassy reinforcement request. If the Corps doesn't want to use FAST for these missions anymore then it's time to disband.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 31, 2019)

Whoever runs the vote vets twitter handle is a special kind of asshole.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1211996437787140096


----------



## Devildoc (Dec 31, 2019)

Marines doing Marine things...


----------



## Salt USMC (Dec 31, 2019)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Looks like Iran and Al-Sadr are up to their bullshit again. Thanks again Obama.


Sadr’s group has been vyying for political legitimacy since the early summer.  Don’t get me wrong, the Sadrists still gets a lot of support from Iran, but the general consensus is that they’re more concerned with gaining seats in parliament than exporting the revolution. KH is almost certainly the main belligerent in this case, especially since we just blew up a bunch of their guys over the weekend.


----------



## KM6371 (Dec 31, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> Whoever runs the vote vets twitter handle is a special kind of asshole.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1211996437787140096


Yikes is right


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Dec 31, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> Sadr’s group has been vyying for political legitimacy since the early summer.  Don’t get me wrong, the Sadrists still gets a lot of support from Iran, but the general consensus is that they’re more concerned with gaining seats in parliament than exporting the revolution. KH is almost certainly the main belligerent in this case, especially since we just blew up a bunch of their guys over the weekend.


Sadr has always been a stooge for Iran. We should have razed his city and turned his Mosques into scorched rubble. Fuck that guy. I'll never forgive him and his cronies for as long as I live. 

Phosphorus would be too good a death for Sadr and his retards.


----------



## Devildoc (Dec 31, 2019)

I don't do Twitter much any more, but God damn that vote vets site mightily pissed me off...


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Dec 31, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> I don't do Twitter much any more, but God damn that vote vets site mightily pissed me off...


Yep. They're just a bunch of useful idiots that use the 'veteran moniker' to push their commie BS. Progressive liberal misinformation at it's finest. Considering they're siding with Al Sadr, it's nice seeing where their loyalties are.


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 31, 2019)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Sadr has always been a stooge for Iran. We should have razed his city and turned his Mosques into scorched rubble. Fuck that guy. I'll never forgive him and his cronies for as long as I live.
> 
> Phosphorus would be too good a death for Sadr and his retards.



I remember when he got put on the no-strike list.  Sad day.


----------



## racing_kitty (Dec 31, 2019)

Iran is just ass hurt that the Iraqi children that grew up during our occupation are adults now, and protesting against the Iranian stooge that sits atop the Iraqi government. They want their own government, and they don’t want fundamentalist Islam. That is anathema to everything that Iran has in mind for the region.

Ol’ Mookie should have been jailed or hung. He’s a coward with a big mouth. He’s a little yappy dog the size of a Turkish coffee cup that barks and growls like he’s the biggest dog in the kennel, until a much larger, meaner dog puts him in in place. Then he goes running to the safety of Iran, where he suckles hate from the warm teat of the mullahs, has a nap, and comes back to Baghdad when the heat’s died down.

Fuck him. Fuck any American that sides with him. It costs roughly $1400 to renounce citizenship. If Iran is the tits, and the mullahs are really so awesome that young Iraqis should reconsider their position, then I can gladly book them on a one-way flight to Istanbul, with follow-on to Tehran.


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 31, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> Whoever runs the vote vets twitter handle is a special kind of asshole.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1211996437787140096



I keep getting "page does not exist" when I click that link.


----------



## Florida173 (Dec 31, 2019)

Was watching the feed earlier.. Bit crazier than I had expected


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 31, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> I keep getting "page does not exist" when I click that link.


Here's the regular feed: VoteVets (@votevets) | Twitter

Looks like they deleted the tweet.  It was something like: "Hey POTUS, remember all your Angry Tweets about Benghazi, well now you have one on your hands"


----------



## Blizzard (Dec 31, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> I keep getting "page does not exist" when I click that link.


Me too.


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 31, 2019)

"The US Embassy in Iraq, a sprawling, $750 million facility housing 5,500 Americans in downtown Baghdad, is under attack.  Parts of the compound are in flames, armed and angry locals are roaming the grounds at will, and US personnel have retreated to internally-secure locations.  The situation has many Americans wondering: will this turn into "Benghazi 2.0?""

*link*


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 31, 2019)

WTF is Roger Westmoreland?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 31, 2019)

Well, that's certainly a different kind of new years.  82nd DRB has been activated.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1212167794160263169


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 31, 2019)

Multiple sources are saying 500 paratroopers from Ft Bragg are enroute to Kuwait.

DRF-1 and 2 just got interesting.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 31, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> Multiple sources are saying 500 paratroopers from Ft Bragg are enroute to Kuwait.


Anybody seen @Muppet ?  Someone told me he had something to take care of and he’d back back in a couple weeks....


----------



## Kraut783 (Dec 31, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> Well, that's certainly a different kind of new years.  82nd DRB has been activated.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1212167794160263169



Well, shit....


----------



## BloodStripe (Dec 31, 2019)

May our boys all get some. Happy fucking new years.


----------



## Dame (Dec 31, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> May our boys all get some. Happy fucking new years.


Can't like this enough. So tired of having our Marines (and other forces) muzzled. Let them loose then bring them home.


----------



## Muppet (Dec 31, 2019)

Get it boys. I wonder what brigade is on DRB...


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 31, 2019)

Now saying 750. That's the DRB.
Get some brothers and sisters.


----------



## Devildoc (Dec 31, 2019)

Local news (we're 90 minutes from Bragg) on post, saying 750, everyone still at Bragg, all to be deployed "within 18 hours".

So glad to is president who takes this seriously.  It's good to feel... supported.


----------



## Muppet (Dec 31, 2019)

I'm hearing from brothers still there, 1/504th are the 750 on the way.....


----------



## Jaknight (Jan 1, 2020)

Man here I am as a regular joe  enjoying the new years drunk and y’all men and women are  about to put in work Godspeed to each and everyone of you men and women going over there


----------



## Gunz (Jan 1, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> Well, that's certainly a different kind of new years.  82nd DRB has been activated.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1212167794160263169



Fuck. Yeah.


----------



## Brill (Jan 2, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I wonder how many times the word “Benghazi” has been spoken by those directly affected by this over the past 24 hours.



At least they are finally talking about it, even if misdirected.


----------



## Brill (Jan 3, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1213135092266127361


----------



## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jan 4, 2020)

I haven't been in Iraq since IR started so I wouldn't know for sure. Last time I was there in '12, all drones and military air was approved by the Iraqis so I imagine there is some form of approval from their gov't.

We haven't heard much out of Madi or Sistani, or even Al-Sadr in the media. It looks like they want us out and are ready to do it legally, but nothing big. Them saying they are willing to use force to get the U.S. out of Iraq is old news....

Shi'ites Want U.S. Out of Iraq


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 4, 2020)

@BloodStripe just necroposted posted in an Iran thread from 2017.  Since this topic has all to do with Iran, and less to do with Iraq/ISIS, I’m going to move these Iran related posts to that thread.  

It’s here in the Modern Conflict area now.  Just letting folks know if they see 2 thread running for a few minutes.

Here is where the future Iran posts should go:

What’s happening in Iran?


----------



## RackMaster (Jan 4, 2020)

BlackSmokeRisinG said:


> I haven't been in Iraq since IR started so I wouldn't know for sure. Last time I was there in '12, all drones and military air was approved by the Iraqis so I imagine there is some form of approval from their gov't.
> 
> We haven't heard much out of Madi or Sistani, or even Al-Sadr in the media. It looks like they want us out and are ready to do it legally, but nothing big. Them saying they are willing to use force to get the U.S. out of Iraq is old news....
> 
> Shi'ites Want U.S. Out of Iraq



Al-Sadr reactivated the Mahdi Army. 

Muqtada al Sadr reactivates Mahdi Army, Promised Day Brigade | FDD's Long War Journal


----------



## RackMaster (Jan 4, 2020)

Dancing on the streets of Baghdad after killing of top Iranian general


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Jan 4, 2020)

RackMaster said:


> Al-Sadr reactivated the Mahdi Army.
> 
> Muqtada al Sadr reactivates Mahdi Army, Promised Day Brigade | FDD's Long War Journal


I feel like if we ever took the gloves off Sadr and pals would be smouldering piles of flesh. His strongholds are only strongholds because of arbitrary religious classifications and his use of human shields. Incidentally, Sadr's cushy treatment is also why I grew to dislike the Obama administration and his progressive eggheads.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 4, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> I feel like if we ever took the gloves off Sadr and pals would be smouldering piles of flesh. His strongholds are only strongholds because of arbitrary religious classifications and his use of human shields. Incidentally, Sadr's cushy treatment is also why I grew to dislike the Obama administration and his progressive eggheads.



Not just President Obama though.  IIRC, Sadr moved to the no-strike list during President Bush’s tenure.  And also AFAIK he’s still on the list under President Trump.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 4, 2020)

President Trump making Iran great again through *expansion of his job creation program*:

------

After creating job openings in Iran’s infamous Quds Force by “droning” Iranian terrorist mastermind Qasem Soleimani and several other associated baddies, the Trump Administration announced that it would be creating job openings for many, many other Iranian proxies in the region “in the very near future.”

Dubbed the “F–k Around and Find Out” program, or FAFO for short, the program involves using US organizations such as JSOC and the CIA to create vacancies in Iran’s Quds Force, Iraq’s various Shiite militias, and Syria-based ISIS. Individuals currently holding leadership positions in those organizations were marked for “mass, early non-mandatory retirement,” thereby freeing up jobs for others to move into.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Jan 4, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Not just President Obama though.  IIRC, Sadr moved to the no-strike list during President Bush’s tenure.  And also AFAIK he’s still on the list under President Trump.


Honestly that sucks. I can't believe how much leeway Sadr has been given. Part of me still loathes the changes I saw under the Obama transition, I firmly believe Obama and his administration gave Iraq up to Iran. It almost felt like going from predator to prey, it was infuriating.


----------



## RackMaster (Jan 4, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Honestly that sucks. I can't believe how much leeway Sadr has been given. Part of me still loathes the changes I saw under the Obama transition, I firmly believe Obama and his administration gave Iraq up to Iran. It almost felt like going from predator to prey, it was infuriating.



I might have posted it somewhere but I read about Biden being instrumental in negotiating with Soleimani for Iran's further involvement in Iraq.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Jan 4, 2020)

RackMaster said:


> I might have posted it somewhere but I read about Biden being instrumental in negotiating with Soleimani for Iran's further involvement in Iraq.


Yep, I remember reading that post. Thank you dude, it helped tie up some loose ends. Yesterday, I actually bought a six-pack to celebrate Soleimani's death. This from a guy who last drank beer in July.


----------



## AWP (Jan 4, 2020)

Bush didn't do much with Iran, so we need to consider this a failure by America, not a specific president.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Jan 4, 2020)

AWP said:


> Bush didn't do much with Iran, so we need to consider this a failure by America, not a specific president.


Hard disagree. Iraq was being stabilized and the Mahdi militias were on the ropes as Obama and his progressive eggheads stepped in. Obama and his cronies gave up our gains to Iran in exchange for 'peace' and a 'political win'. Considering how Iraq ended up, I blame him and his lackeys for the darkness that's ensued.


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## pardus (Jan 5, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Hard disagree. Iraq was being stabilized and the Mahdi militias were on the ropes as Obama and his progressive eggheads stepped in. Obama and his cronies gave up our gains to Iran in exchange for 'peace' and a 'political win'. Considering how Iraq ended up, I blame him and his lackeys for the darkness that's ensued.



Define "stabilized"


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## Cookie_ (Jan 5, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Hard disagree. Iraq was being stabilized and the Mahdi militias were on the ropes as Obama and his progressive eggheads stepped in. Obama and his cronies gave up our gains to Iran in exchange for 'peace' and a 'political win'. Considering how Iraq ended up, I blame him and his lackeys for the darkness that's ensued.



I mean, basically everyone can point to the sectarian violence and long-term governmental collapse of Iraq being due to Rumsfeld's(IIRC) insistence that anyone affiliated with the Ba'ath party being denied involvement in the new Iraqi government, thereby almost guaranteeing that it wouldn't work out, but sure, its the one Dem president's fault.

We've been "losing" Iraq since 2004, because our military is not designed to help prop up foreign governments that are capable of standing without us


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## R.Caerbannog (Jan 5, 2020)

pardus said:


> Define "stabilized"


Businesses going up and areas who had been without utilities having services (albeit sporadically) restored. Don't get me wrong, sectarian violence and corruption were rife, but it genuinely seemed the insurgency was on the back foot. People were out and about buying goods, the poorest bazaars were always packed, and there was a wave of construction going on. 

It wasn't perfect, but there was a sense of hope.



Cookie_ said:


> I mean, basically everyone can point to the sectarian violence and long-term governmental collapse of Iraq being due to Rumsfeld's(IIRC) insistence that anyone affiliated with the Ba'ath party being denied involvement in the new Iraqi government, thereby almost guaranteeing that it wouldn't work out, but sure, its the one Dem president's fault.
> 
> We've been "losing" Iraq since 2004, because our military is not designed to help prop up foreign governments that are capable of standing without us


Rumsfeld wasn't the guy who cut our missions and sent down directives to 'shoot to wound' insurgents. I saw gains that had been made dissolve bit by bit under Obama and it still burns me today. It's a travesty that those progressive idiots handed Iraq over to Iran on a silver platter, then had us stand by as civilians were brutalized.

So yeah, there's plenty of blame to go around. The way I see it though, Obama and his progressive eggheads sold us out for a political victory.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 5, 2020)

The first move by Iraq's pro-Iran government was made.  The parliament voted for expulsion of US Forces.  The process for this as I understand is actually a long and deliberate one.  Iraqi Parliament Convenes, to Take Decision on US Presence

In order for this to actually occur, a second vote is required.  The Sunni and Kurdish Blocks did not participate in the vote.


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## Brill (Jan 5, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> The first move by Iraq's pro-Iran government was made.  The parliament voted for expulsion of US Forces.



If we lose our bases in Iraq, where will all the new draftees be assigned?



> “World War III” started trending on social media. Young men suddenly recalled registering after their 18th birthdays, many having done so while applying for college financial aid. One Twitter user posted that he had blocked the account of the United States Army, with the (faulty) reasoning that: “They can’t draft you if they can’t see you.”



Will There Be a Draft? Young People Worry After Military Strike

The House should open investigations whether the Trump children AND Kushner previously registered as per Federal law!


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## Box (Jan 5, 2020)

AWP said:


> Bush didn't do much with Iran, so we need to consider this a failure by America, not a specific president.



True - this isn't a failure of any "single" POTUS - it is a collective failure of American will.

Every POTUS since Carter has had a chance to tell Iran to shut up and color - every POTUS since Carter has elected to kick the can a little further down the road.  The United States at large has been content to look the other way for over 40 years.  Iran spent a year torturing William Buckley, they car bombed the US Embassy in Beirut - THRICE, they hijacked TWA flight 847 and then left the murdered body of a US Service Member on the airstrip.  They have shot down drones and captured US troops with a "_go fuck yourself America_" mantra the entire time - politicians around the world have chosen instead to focus on hashtag-save-our-girls, random Twitter outrage, and other nonsense. 

The sad part is that the politicians aren't wholly to blame - the American public has provided tactic approval of this bizarre policy towards Iran by repeatedly putting the same dipshits in elected positions YEAR after YEAR...
...after year
...after year
...after year

The closest thing we ever get to a solution is when any given seated POTUS is lambasted by the opposition party.


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## DA SWO (Jan 5, 2020)

Box said:


> True - this isn't a failure of any "single" POTUS - it is a collective failure of American will.
> 
> Every POTUS since Carter has had a chance to tell Iran to shut up and color - every POTUS since Carter has elected to kick the can a little further down the road.  The United States at large has been content to look the other way for over 40 years.  Iran spent a year torturing William Buckley, they car bombed the US Embassy in Beirut - THRICE, they hijacked TWA flight 847 and then left the murdered body of a US Service Member on the airstrip.  They have shot down drones and captured US troops with a "_go fuck yourself America_" mantra the entire time - politicians around the world have chosen instead to focus on hashtag-save-our-girls, random Twitter outrage, and other nonsense.
> 
> ...


Read Tanker war ( book about our conflict with Iran during the Reagan admin)


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## Kheenbish (Jan 6, 2020)

U.S Military tells Iraq it will withdraw

Trump works in mysterious ways. The article is a bit misleading as the letter states the U.S will be "repositioning forces over the course of the coming days and weeks to prepare for onward movement" doesn't explicitly say withdraw all U.S forces from the AOR.

Then the letter goes on to say “We respect your sovereign decision to order our departure”.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 6, 2020)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1214278172872544256
This letter looks a bit strange.  But having written a lot of memos in my time, I'm pretty sure there are some incorrect things in there.  Of course I could be wrong.

ETA: Apparently it's real, but it's a draft and was not supposed to be sent.  Someone is losing their job over that.


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## Kheenbish (Jan 6, 2020)

@ThunderHorse  looks like you are correct. I was thinking the same thing when reading it that it seemed very bizarre. 

UPDATE: U.S Military not leaving Iraq

“There’s been no decision whatsoever to leave Iraq,” Esper told Pentagon reporters when asked about the letter, adding there were no plans issued to prepare to leave.

“I don’t know what that letter is... We’re trying to find out where that’s coming from, what that is. But there’s been no decision made to leave Iraq. Period.”


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## Dame (Jan 6, 2020)

Kheenbish said:


> @ThunderHorse  looks like you are correct. I was thinking the same thing when reading it that it seemed very bizarre.
> 
> UPDATE: U.S Military not leaving Iraq
> 
> ...


Russia.

Wag the dog.


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## DA SWO (Jan 6, 2020)

Kheenbish said:


> U.S Military tells Iraq it will withdraw
> 
> Trump works in mysterious ways. The article is a bit misleading as the letter states the U.S will be "repositioning forces over the course of the coming days and weeks to prepare for onward movement" doesn't explicitly say withdraw all U.S forces from the AOR.
> 
> Then the letter goes on to say “We respect your sovereign decision to order our departure”.


Draft letter, unsigned.

Good Psyop though.  I imagine a lot of Iraqi Politicians who voted to kick us out shit their pants when this leaked.


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## AWP (Jan 6, 2020)

Pakistan: AWP hates us more than any other nation.
Iraq: Might wanna' free up a hand.
Nickleback: Ha ha!


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## amlove21 (Jan 7, 2020)

The gaslighting of America, continued. Nicklebacks next album name.


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## BloodStripe (Jan 8, 2020)

Interesting development if true.

Kuwait receives letter saying all U.S. forces to leave in three days: KUNA


Update: A hacked Twitter account sparked a false rumor that the US military is pulling out of Kuwait


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 8, 2020)

BloodStripe said:


> Interesting development if true.
> 
> Kuwait receives letter saying all U.S. forces to leave in three days: KUNA
> 
> ...


No one told the softball team.  Exfilling Arifjan would take more than three days anyways.


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## GOTWA (Jan 8, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> No one told the softball team.  Exfilling Arifjan would take more than three days anyways.



I mean, they sell Plan B at the PX. Nobody is leaving that joint.


----------



## 757 (Jan 9, 2020)




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## racing_kitty (Jan 9, 2020)

757 said:


> View attachment 31428


That would be me if I joined the Space Force.


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## BloodStripe (Jan 9, 2020)

racing_kitty said:


> That would be me if I joined the Space Force.


The empire did nothing wrong.


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## Gunz (Jan 9, 2020)

757 said:


> View attachment 31428




Looks like an FN FAL with corrugated conduit tubing and a leaf-blower. 

They used a Grass Valley K-Frame Broadcast Input/Output Module to activate the Death Star.


----------



## Box (Jan 10, 2020)

Grass Valley K-Frame Broadcast Input/Output Module ???   Seriously ???

CLEARLY the guidance and tracking system is a second or third generation generation_ Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator_ - the original models were developed a long time ago in a galaxy far, far away by an alien species hoping to destroy planet earth because it was obstructing their view of Venus...
...the Empire later adapted them for use with Death Star technology when they realized that Kyber Crystal were more powerful and efficient than the older Illudium-Q36 fuel rods.  The Iranians have yet to demonstrate the capability or capacity to deploy such weapons and I doubt that current US policy would allow Iran to devop the technology needed to weaponize Kyber or Illudium.   

The Iranians are having a hard time NOT shooting down civilian airliners full of their own citizens - can you imagine the problems we'd have with a Planet-Killer laser beam being fired with the current capability of Iranian targeting and guidance systems ???
If they didnt kill us all testing it here on earth, they'd certainly end up shooting down a shit-ton of Jupiter's moons before they finally work out all the bugs.

Then of course there is that whole "12th Imam" thing - if the POTUS and the rest of the evil American invaders in the middle east are able to find, capture, and murder that Imam al-Mahdi fellow before the Iranian death star is fully operational, none of this will even matter..
...amiRight  ??


----------



## Gunz (Jan 12, 2020)

Box said:


> ...Grass Valley K-Frame Broadcast Input/Output Module ???   Seriously ???...



Yeah. Every TV station control room had one or two of those back in the 70s. Who knew it had such destructive power??


----------



## RackMaster (Jan 14, 2020)

An update on Canada's training mission in Iraq, Jordan and Lebanon, based out of Kuwait now.

‘A significant shift’: Canadian commander explains how troops are responding to Iraq escalation


----------



## Arf (Feb 6, 2020)

Statement from the President | The White House


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## policemedic (Feb 6, 2020)

Fuck yeah.


----------



## Salt USMC (May 8, 2020)

Haven’t heard of this news outlet before, but they’re reporting that the US is pulling Patriot batteries out of KSA.  Why?  I have no idea.  Maybe the check bounced.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258430363392569344
I guess all that buildup at PSAB is going away


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## Marauder06 (May 8, 2020)

Salt USMC said:


> Haven’t heard of this news outlet before, but they’re reporting that the US is pulling Patriot batteries out of KSA.  Why?  I have no idea.  Maybe the check bounced.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258430363392569344
> I guess all that buildup at PSAB is going away



Maybe we need them in Korea... or Iraq


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## Salt USMC (May 8, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Maybe we need them in Korea... or Iraq


Entirely possible, but the thinking last year was that the battery garrisons were going to be built up into more-permanent stations.


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## AWP (May 8, 2020)

Salt USMC said:


> Haven’t heard of this news outlet before, but they’re reporting that the US is pulling Patriot batteries out of KSA.  Why?  I have no idea.  Maybe the check bounced.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258430363392569344
> I guess all that buildup at PSAB is going away



I can't see Twitter at work so I don't know is being released, but our Patriot bubbas told us why and it makes sense FWIW. I don't like the "I have a secret game" which is what I'm doing, but what he said made sense and I'm not reading anything sinister or negative into the reasoning.


----------



## Intel Nerd (May 10, 2020)

I've noticed they've remained critically short on warrants and a few friends of mine in the ADA world mention they have a really high deployment tempo (from their perspective).

I wouldn't be surprised if that is causing it. I also saw some more official items, but that's for another email system (if interested).


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 28, 2020)

Former US service member charged with supporting Syrian terrorist organization

A New Jersey woman who served in the Army has been charged with providing material support to a Syrian terrorist group.


----------



## pardus (Dec 2, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Former US service member charged with supporting Syrian terrorist organization
> 
> A New Jersey woman who served in the Army has been charged with providing material support to a Syrian terrorist group.


"In communicating with al-Nusra Front members, Bell cited her *professional experience in specialized weapons training* while on active duty in the U.S. Army and Army National Guard, prosecutors said. She also offered to provide guidance concerning operational security issues, weapons purchases, and general military knowledge. However, her official record shows just *eight months* of Army service back in the 1980s, according to a report by NBC News." 

Let me tell you all about my experience with the M16A1, 1911 and M60 during basic training!


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## AWP (Dec 2, 2020)

Stolen valor!!!!

At least we aren't the only ones with poser problems.


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## GOTWA (Dec 2, 2020)

AWP said:


> Stolen valor!!!!
> 
> At least we aren't the only ones with poser problems.


Eighties? Wonder if @lindy ever ran into her at the chow hall.


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## Brill (Dec 3, 2020)

GOTWA said:


> Eighties? Wonder if @lindy ever ran into her at the chow hall.



No, just Richard Engel and a BRCC dude in the “news”.


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## RackMaster (Dec 19, 2020)

Canadian commander of NATO forces in Iraq.

https://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/carignan-iraq-nato-1.5848191


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## RackMaster (Jan 7, 2021)

Well who didn't see this coming...  Iraq is an Iranian proxy now. 

Iraqi court issues arrest warrant for Trump over killing of top military commander


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 7, 2021)

RackMaster said:


> Well who didn't see this coming...  Iraq is an Iranian proxy now.
> 
> Iraqi court issues arrest warrant for Trump over killing of top military commander


100% chance powerful people on both sides of the aisle are making jokes to each other of “should we deport him to Iraq?”

LOL


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## Devildoc (Jan 7, 2021)

Ooh-Rah said:


> 100% chance powerful people on both sides of the aisle are making jokes to each other of “should we deport him to Iraq?”
> 
> LOL



100% chance after having him for 30 days they'd send him back...


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 21, 2021)

Back to Iraq we go I guess?

Baghdad bombing could be the Biden administration's first challenge


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 21, 2021)

Fuck that shit...


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## Brill (Jan 22, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> Back to Iraq we go I guess?
> 
> Baghdad bombing could be the Biden administration's first challenge



Press reporting convoy returning to NE SY.


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## pardus (Jan 22, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> Back to Iraq we go I guess?
> 
> Baghdad bombing could be the Biden administration's first challenge


Why? That has nothing to do with us. Also who told you that we left? lol


----------



## Gunz (Jan 22, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> Back to Iraq we go I guess?
> 
> Baghdad bombing could be the Biden administration's first challenge



If the target had been our embassy or our personnel, then there'd be a challenge.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 22, 2021)

pardus said:


> Why? That has nothing to do with us. Also who told you that we left? lol


You're German now?


----------



## pardus (Jan 22, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> You're German now?


Nein! :)


----------



## RackMaster (Jan 22, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> You're German now?



He let's a girl shit on his chest once and all of a sudden he's German.


----------



## AWP (Jan 22, 2021)

RackMaster said:


> He let's a girl shit on his chest once and all of a sudden he's German.



Then he's been German for years...


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## Marauder06 (Feb 28, 2022)

Ericsson "may have" "accidentally" paid ISIS a whole bunch of money in Iraq.


> Ericsson started doing business in Iraq after the United Nations lifted an embargo on the country in 2010. The company discovered suspect payments made to circumvent Iraqi customs laws, which were paid in areas that were controlled by ISIS at the time.


Bitch, please.  You were bribing the shit out of the terrorists for them to allow you to make money in their territory.  Just like you were illegally doing in China and Vietnam.


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## pardus (Mar 12, 2022)

Missiles target US consulate in Erbil, Iraq -


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 12, 2022)

So, we bombing Iran or what?


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## Marauder06 (Mar 12, 2022)

pardus said:


> Missiles target US consulate in Erbil, Iraq -


from the article:



> Shiite cleric and Iraqi politician Muqtada al-Sadr responded with outrage to the missile attack, tweeting shortly after the attack "In the name of God, Irbil is under the fire of loss and betrayal, and under pain of starvation, as if the Kurds were not Iraqis. Rather, they are the lung of Iraq and its indivisible part."
> 
> 
> "Erbil will not kneel except for moderation, independence and sovereignty.  Peace and love for you, Erbil, and you Kurds, and patience until the achievement of: #National_Majority_Government," tweeted al-Sadr.





^that's... a different side of Mookie than I'm used to seeing.


----------



## Kaldak (Mar 12, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> So, we bombing Iran or what?



Nah, just buying their oil.


----------



## pardus (Mar 12, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> from the article:
> 
> 
> 
> ...


That is indeed very interesting. Something about biting the hand that feeds you springs to mind.


----------



## CPL B USMC (Mar 13, 2022)

pardus said:


> Missiles target US consulate in Erbil, Iraq -


Same story different source.

Ballistic missiles fired at US consulate in Iraq


----------



## AWP (Mar 13, 2022)

Considering Iran has ballistic missiles with a CEP of 100m, and they carry 1000lb warheads, they fired 12 and didn’t level their target? I’d love to know what they used and what they were really aiming for.


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 13, 2022)

Does this mean they don't want to sell oil to us?

Ballistic missiles hit Iraqi city, Iran’s Revolutionary Guard claim responsibility


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 31, 2022)

Our boy Sadr still raising hell.

NPR Cookie Consent and Choices

But Al Maliki can take a dirt nap too.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 31, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> Our boy Sadr still raising hell.
> 
> NPR Cookie Consent and Choices
> 
> But Al Maliki can take a dirt nap too.


damn we should have got that guy years ago

I cleaned out one of my old footlockers (actually one of my grandfathers') to give to my daughter to take to college.  It was where I kept all of my overseas souvenirs from Korea, Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Philippines.  One of the things in there was a MAS propaganda poster.  If I think about it when I get home I'll take a pic and post it.  We should have taken that ugly bastard out back in '04.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 5, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> damn we should have got that guy years ago
> 
> I cleaned out one of my old footlockers (actually one of my grandfathers') to give to my daughter to take to college.  It was where I kept all of my overseas souvenirs from Korea, Egypt, Iraq, Afghanistan, and the Philippines.  One of the things in there was a MAS propaganda poster.  If I think about it when I get home I'll take a pic and post it.  We should have taken that ugly bastard out back in '04.



Yep had him dead to rights in the summer of 04, one of the biggest fuck ups of that whole era was the lack of intelligence and background on who was playing these fucks. We basically created AQI and had no problem killing Zarqāwī, hell I remember setting massive ambush sight for that dude...  no joy, until a TF got his ass in 06.

But al-Sadr, we had that dude dead nuts in Najaf in 04. Should of killed him and all his little asshole militia buddies. I fucking remember watching the fucking busses of those assholes go right past my fighting position, on their way back up north, free as birds with Iraqi Police escorts...🤦‍♂️


----------

