# West Point Accuses 70+ Cadets of Cheating



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 23, 2020)

West Point accuses more than 70 cadets of cheating in worst academic scandal in nearly 45 years

I was going to pass on posting this story, but this paragraph stopped me cold...

Army Col. Mark Weathers, West Point's chief of staff, said in an interview Monday that he was "disappointed" in the cadets for cheating, *but he did not consider the incident a serious breach of the code*. *It would not have occurred if the cadets had taken the exam on campus, he said. *

Huh?

Isn’t that the exact opposite of what the Military teaches about integrity?

You know, that whole “what you do when no one is watching” thing?


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## RackMaster (Dec 23, 2020)

Standards everywhere are dropping.  Hopefully the system weeds out the offenders down the line.


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## Gunz (Dec 23, 2020)

Bring back flogging.


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## x SF med (Dec 23, 2020)

WTF ever happened to "A cadet shall not lie, cheat or steal; nor tolerate those that do."?


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## Marauder06 (Dec 23, 2020)

I’m guessing the Chief of Staff was egregiously misquoted.  No West Point senior leader would say something like that. This is a VERY big deal.  Navy is having a similar, but larger, issue right now as well.

One of the (many) interesting things to me about this story is the timing.  This event happened back in May, but is suddenly news now. Why? 

In the past we’ve often seen “scandal” type stories drop right around the big Army/Navy game, both (IMO) to capitalize on the attention on the Academies that happens due to the game, and to influence the game itself.

There is no way something like this was “covered up” by West Point, it is WAY too big and the Corps (and the faculty) are WAY too talkative.  

So why did this story break now?


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## R.Caerbannog (Dec 23, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> One of the (many) interesting things to me about this story is the timing.  This event happened back in May, but is suddenly news now. Why?
> 
> In the past we’ve often seen “scandal” type stories drop up right around the big Army/Navy game, both (IMO) to capitalize on the attention on the Academies that happens due to the game, and to influence the game itself.
> 
> ...


As a pessimist, I'm guessing the useful idiots in the mainstream media are digging up old dirt to smear the Academy. As for their intentions... I got a few guesses, but they ain't very nice.


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 23, 2020)

I don't know if @Marauder06 and I have had this discussion before, but my brain thinks I have. 

I think the three-strike, mentorship, and selective retention policies of the Service Academies is a crock of shit.  I guess I understand why DoD implemented them, but I still think they fail. 

I remember a story being related to me by a friend who was at the Naval Academy.  His roommate had been arrested by their honor court, convicted, and his sentence was "mentorship".  Which for many mostly amounts to late graduation. 

I went to VMI, VMI for now maintains the only Public College/University single sanction honor system.  Although there is some pressure to move to the current policy in place at Service Academies. 

You cannot re-train Honor, you either have it at this stage in life or you don't.  Many of the people I went through ABOLC with were in the same class as Trent Steelman, it was common knowledge of everyone that he cheated. 

At VMI, when a cadet is arrested for an honor violation, the Honor Court does their best to be wholly discreet.  Very rarely does the Corps know who's been arrested.  Jury members are woken up at 330 in the morning and they and the Honor Court are usually the only people that know who's standing for trial.  Jury members are sworn to secrecy.


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## Marauder06 (Dec 23, 2020)

Naval Academy reviewing final physics exam after ‘inconsistencies’



ThunderHorse said:


> I don't know if @Marauder06 and I have had this discussion before, but my brain thinks I have.
> 
> I think the three-strike, mentorship, and selective retention policies of the Service Academies is a crock of shit.  I guess I understand why DoD implemented them, but I still think they fail.
> 
> ...



I totally understand where you’re coming from brother.  A lot of people, including many at West Point, feel the same.  I’ll have some more thoughts in a couple of days when I can get to a computer.


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## Gunz (Dec 23, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> You cannot re-train Honor, you either have it at this stage in life or you don't.



If you get to one of the service academies and you're cheating on tests, you've got a character flaw that your parents either missed or ignored.


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## Marauder06 (Dec 23, 2020)

Anyone ever read “Lying to Ourselves?”  I think we discussed it here on the site a couple of years back.


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 30, 2020)

Army football players among 73 cadets who cheated on calculus final exam in May

The last time this many football players were caught violating the honor code it was a single sanction system. The 1951 West Point Football team is famously known as the Code Breakers. Coach Red Blaik's son was one of them and he was dismissed.

Army football players among 73 cadets who cheated on calculus final exam in May


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## Marauder06 (Dec 30, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> Army football players among 73 cadets who cheated on calculus final exam in May
> 
> The last time this many football players were caught violating the honor code it was a single sanction system. The 1951 West Point Football team is famously known as the Code Breakers. Coach Red Blaik's son was one of them and he was dismissed.
> 
> Army football players among 73 cadets who cheated on calculus final exam in May



Wow. That's going to hurt.

The Superintendent is (or maybe has, at this point) going to make a public announcement about this. When that happens, I'll post it here unless someone else beats me to it.

Also, I'm pretty sure I'm in the photo that accompanied that article:


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## Grunt (Dec 30, 2020)

In the academic world...I despise cheaters!

In the military academies...I abhor them even more strongly....


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## Marauder06 (Dec 30, 2020)

This is the Superintendent's letter that went out to both faculty and alumni and is intended for public release.  I'm posting it without comment because it's an ongoing investigation.

As to the overall process, generally speaking I think that the "developmental" model is superior to the "attritional" model. Most people coming to the Academies didn't come up in a military system and can't, IMO, be expected to to inculcate everything necessary to become a leader of character specifically, and an Army officer more generally, right away. 

Let's be honest: there are degrees of dishonesty that are acceptable in the active force, even among officers. We all know that everything isn't as black-and-white in "the real Army" as it is in the Academies' honor codes. I think integrity is super-important, but I think that character is a process, and it can be improved with training and time. I've served as a developmental coach in the past, and it's not easy. In short, I think the "willful admission" process (which was in place before the current Supe) is overall a good thing, and I'm OK with discretion in honor cases.


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 30, 2020)

I don't even respectfully disagree. I disagree and I think that letter just doesn't cut it.  When you have this many who willfully cheat, they need to go. 

For me, you know my background. You know the system I was held to. I held to that Code willingly. 

Things like Plagiarism or Academic cheating are a clear cut thing for me versus say lying about how much time you had between PT and Formation and were sweating at Supper Roll Call. 

I know a few early 70s Alumni and they're like WTFF!


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## SpongeBob*24 (Dec 30, 2020)

I also disagree!

If they cheat or break the code now, what will they do when things actually get stressful.  They are in a classroom environment.  The Commandant nailed it when he said they chose "the easy wrong over the hard right".  They should be held accountable for this.  If those come forward and "own it", then I'm all for them doing a year or two away and coming back.  But a slap on the wrist just doesn't seem fair.

Just My 2 rubles!!!


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## Marauder06 (Dec 30, 2020)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> I also disagree!
> 
> If they cheat or break the code now, what will they do when things actually get stressful.  They are in a classroom environment.  The Commandant nailed it when he said they chose "the easy wrong over the hard right".  They should be held accountable for this.  If those come forward and "own it", then I'm all for them doing a year or two away and coming back.  But a slap on the wrist just doesn't seem fair.
> 
> Just My 2 rubles!!!


There are ways of holding people accountable that are short of expulsion.  If a cadet does the Willful Admission Program, or if they are found guilty by the Honor Board and are allowed to stay, they are basically on probation for the rest of their time at the Academy, and as previously discussed, the mentorship program is pretty intense.  It's definitely not the same as getting kicked out, but IMO it's not a mere slap on the wrist either.


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## Kaldak (Dec 30, 2020)

I'm sorry. That statement bullshit, and an excuse, if you ask me.

At OCS, one honor code violation and bye-bye. You're going back to the enlisted ranks. Not expelled, but as a non-prior, enjoy 4 years enlisted at needs of the Army.

I saw it happen to five different candidates in five different instances. You're telling me that "ring knockers" can't meet those same standards?

Come on, man.


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## Intel Nerd (Dec 31, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> *Let's be honest: there are degrees of dishonesty that are acceptable in the active force, even among officers. We all know that everything isn't as black-and-white in "the real Army" as it is in the Academies' honor codes.*



Just preparing the Cadets to make sure their slides are all Green when they take Company Command.

We all know it's true.

In my second unit before my second deployment to Afghanistan, my Troop managed 100% training on three weeks of CLS, range qualifications, roll over training, all miraculously in one four day week of half days.


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## DA SWO (Dec 31, 2020)

Football players need to be kicked off the team, sucks to be them.

Not hammering them sends a message that certain athletes are untouchable. Remember the big sex scandal at the AF Academy? Football players were at the heart, the Coach retired when he and the team were held to a standard.
They can stay, they just can't play football and I would drop them to the bottom of their class ranking regardless of GPA or other factors.


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## Teufel (Dec 31, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> There are ways of holding people accountable that are short of expulsion.  If a cadet does the Willful Admission Program, or if they are found guilty by the Honor Board and are allowed to stay, they are basically on probation for the rest of their time at the Academy, and as previously discussed, the mentorship program is pretty intense.  It's definitely not the same as getting kicked out, but IMO it's not a mere slap on the wrist either.


+1. West Point is ultimately a leadership training academy. We should trust the school to judge these students and determine if they are redeemable.


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## Grunt (Dec 31, 2020)

Their penalty for having no honor needs to be somewhat painful so that it leaves a scar for them to remember and learn by. I won't pretend to know what their punishment should be, but it needs to teach them a painful lesson so that it is never forgotten and will hopefully make them better and more productive leaders for the future. Our country may need them in the future and we need to know that we can trust them to lead our Warriors if called upon.


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## Kraut783 (Dec 31, 2020)

It's time for some good old fashion hazing of cadets again...get some drill sergeants in there and f*ck em up!


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## Marauder06 (Dec 31, 2020)

This is a response that an Old Grad (West Point) alum is sending to the Superintendent.  I don't know the author (we're in some of the same FB groups), although we commissioned the same year, served in a couple of the same places, and both taught at West Point, although he left the year before I arrived.

-----
Office of the Superintendent
ATTN: LTG Darryl A. Williams
The United States Military Academy
West Point, NY 10996

LTG Williams,

Sir,
“A CADET WILL NOT LIE, CHEAT, STEAL, OR TOLERATE THOSE WHO DO.”

I am a 1995 graduate of The United States Military Academy at West Point, New York. After two tours in Afghanistan (2003-04, and 2006), I returned to West Point to teach in the Department of English & Philosophy from 2008-12.

In the eight years I have spent at West Point, I have never seen the level of unprofessionalism nor the lack of integrity exhibited by the 73 cadets who cheated, nor your level of passivity, timidity, and cowardice.

The tragedy here is: the permanent black eye you have given to West Point—as well as to the Long Grey Line (past, present, and future).
The United States Military Academy at West Point, New York may never recover from your failure to hold fast the standards to which we have sworn regarding honesty, integrity, and personal courage.

USA Today (at https://www.usatoday.com/.../west-point.../4085075001/) noted that:

“In all, 55 of the 73 cadets accused of cheating on a calculus final exam in May are athletes, including 17 who remain on the football team, according to figures released to USA TODAY by West Point.

“A few have played in football games this season after having been accused of cheating. Some of those players could dress and play in the Liberty Bowl on Thursday, according to Army Lt. Col. Christopher Ophardt, a West Point spokesman.

“They're allowed to play because West Point's superintendent in October suspended a policy that limited or prevented cadets found in violation of the academy's honor code from representing the academy in public, including athletes at sports events.”

You failed West Point by allowing cadets to remain in good standing after violating the long-standing, admirable Cadet Honor Code.

That Cadet Honor Code is but one of the key pillars that makes West Point valid and unique.

You failed, Sir, by allowing cadets (cadet athletes) to continue to play--representing West Point, the US Army, and our Constitutional Republic.
I will not live under the illusion that you are clothed, here. In fact, in this case, the emperor (superintendent) wears no clothes.

Shame on you, Sir.

Hold the line.

Hold the standard.

Do the right thing. By West Point.

Do the right thing. By West Point’s Long Grey Line.

I call upon you to strengthen, reimburse, and raise up the Cadet Honor Code, if you can.

If you still have time.

The Long Grey Line is watching you. And we are trying to not weep.

I await your reply,


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 31, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Army Col. Mark Weathers, West Point's chief of staff, said in an interview Monday that he was "disappointed" in the cadets for cheating, *but he did not consider the incident a serious breach of the code*. *It would not have occurred if the cadets had taken the exam on campus, he said. *


The above is quoted from my OP.

@Marauder06 , I gotta ask...based on statements and actions inactions by West Point, do you still believe it to be a misquote or unrealistic that he said this? 

ETA - my question above could be read like I’m trying to come across as a dick, that is 100% not my intent; I’ve got no right to take a shot at any Service Academy, nor anyone who has attended one.  But based on the letter that Mara posted, it now seems like a fair question to ask.


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## Marauder06 (Dec 31, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> The above is quoted from my OP.
> 
> @Marauder06 , I gotta ask...based on statements and actions inactions by West Point, do you still believe it to be a misquote or unrealistic that he said this?
> 
> ETA - my question above could be read like I’m trying to come across as a dick, that is 100% not my intent; I’ve got no right to take a shot at any Service Academy, nor anyone who has attended one.  But based on the letter that Mara posted, it now seems like a fair question to ask.



Yes, I still think it likely that it was either a misquote or an incomplete quote.  However, that is my opinion only.  AFAIK I've never even met the Chief of Staff and no one else (again, AFAIK) is making this claim.


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## Gunz (Dec 31, 2020)

.


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 31, 2020)

I can generally understand the idea of the Willful admissions process when a cadet acts alone in something and is caught.  However, this was a straight up cheating ring.  Boot them, make the example, move forward.


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## Gunz (Dec 31, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> I can generally understand the idea of the Willful admissions process when a cadet acts alone in something and is caught.  However, this was a straight up cheating ring.  Boot them, make the example, move forward.


Makes me wonder what the punishment would’ve been if none of them had been on the football team.


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## The Hate Ape (Jan 1, 2021)

Lets not forget these are still a bunch of college kids with emotions, impulses, desires, etc - the school is perfectly capable of making the right call.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 1, 2021)

More on this issue:
West Point & Critical Race Theory

Lots to unpack in that article, and the ones it links to.​


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 1, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> More on this issue:
> West Point & Critical Race Theory​​Lots to unpack in that article, and the ones it links to.​



Ok, I got beef with the Supe.  I did not know that he had suspended the policy that stopped cadet-athletes from representing the school while in Honor Code proceedings.   The rest of it I'm starting to read.


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## Gunz (Jan 1, 2021)

The Hate Ape said:


> Lets not forget these are still a bunch of college kids with emotions, impulses, desires, etc - the school is perfectly capable of making the right call.



You're right, they're college kids...but kids who know damn well they're getting a free education in one of the most prestigious institutions in the country, with a long established, legendary honor code that they are fully aware of.

To me it's a character issue and possibly a parental issue as well.

Honor used to mean a lot more than it does now.


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## DA SWO (Jan 1, 2021)

The Hate Ape said:


> Lets not forget these are still a bunch of college kids with emotions, impulses, desires, etc - the school is perfectly capable of making the right call.


If he was a LCpl lying to you would you think it was a no-harm no foul event?


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## GOTWA (Jan 1, 2021)

I haven't read all there is to read about this, but a honest question; is this a cadet problem or an overall institutional failure? This isn't a couple of people messing up, or even several, its 73.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 1, 2021)

GOTWA said:


> I haven't read all there is to read about this, but a honest question; is this a cadet problem or an overall institutional failure? This isn't a couple of people messing up, or even several, its 73.



Cheating happens all the way down in Middle School. To give you an idea of what occurred while I was at VMI when it came to honor code violations and trials on a yearly basis. 

Around 20 cadets were dismissed per year for Honor violations. Not all of them were for cheating. In less than a Calendar year I served on three juries while at VMI, Spring 2010 and Fall 2010. Many cadets who are accused of cheating often withdraw from school, these cases take the longest to adjudicate once in the trial process. Lying and Stealing are pretty swift trials once they hit the trial process, however usually take the longest to investigate, lying usually requires multiple instances of lying, unless it is to a professor.

Of the three cases that I sat the jury on, if I recall this correctly, all three cadets were accused of lying. One of the cadets had withdrawn from school in the fall when he was arrested by the Honor Court with the intention to fight his case, he would be declared not guilty by a jury of his peers and returned to the Institute in the Fall of 2010. I would say about 40% of Honor Violations cases at VMI are either declared not guilty or the verdict doesn't get certified by the Superintendent and that Cadet has the opportunity to return to the Corps. 

VMI's Corps of Cadets is roughly 1/3 the size of a Federal Service Academy.


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## The Hate Ape (Jan 2, 2021)

Gunz said:


> You're right, they're college kids...but kids who know damn well they're getting a free education in one of the most prestigious institutions in the country, with a long established, legendary honor code that they are fully aware of.
> 
> To me it's a character issue and possibly a parental issue as well.
> 
> Honor used to mean a lot more than it does now.


Believe me I dig it and have the utmost respect for tradition & lineage but honor is handed down in a forge not a delivery room.


DA SWO said:


> If he was a LCpl lying to you would you think it was a no-harm no foul event?


Of course not. I dont think this situation at west point is a no harm/foul either Im just saying some of these reactions coming out of the woods come off a little theatrical.


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## AWP (Jan 2, 2021)

If West Point were actually in the US military, it would punish the entire school instead of those responsible. The gas chamber, expulsion, 5,000+ plus hours on the tour, nothing is unreasonable.

This is the way.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 2, 2021)

Another perspective on this issue, this time featured in Salon:

Another scandal at West Point: Where secrecy comes before honor



> I went to West Point, and I can assure you of one thing: The visible scandal is just the tip of the iceberg​


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 2, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> Another perspective on this issue, this time featured in Salon:
> 
> Another scandal at West Point: Where secrecy comes before honor



Not to make this a comparison. But what is the size of the "Honor Committee" at West Point. VMI has an Honor Court. There are 12 members. 

President, two vice presidents, and three prosecutors whom are all first classmen. Then there are six assistant prosecutors whom are all second classmen. Then cadets from the top three classes are all in the computer to be selected via lottery for the jury pool. The Jury Pool is then whittled down to 7 in the same way a standard jury is by the Prosecution and Defense. 

The accused have the right to choose their own defense counsel, I never saw a Faculty member actually act as defense counsel, but there faculty advisors for both defense and prosecution. The Prosecution of course are cadets. In my experience as a jury member I always saw private counsel retained. In fact there are boutique law firms that specialize in Honor Trial defense in the state of Virginia. 

I know at the Citadel, their court is run differently. They have about 40 cadets on the court, they have a president and prosecutors and then of the 40 cadets on the court, 30 are basically professional jurors for lack of a better term.

I would say that 12 members of VMI's court, the school is basically at the max right now, if the school somehow ended up admitting another 2-300 rats which would be impossible without building another barracks block, the size of the court would need to be increased to handle the case load. 

So if anything, West Point may need an Honor Court per regiment to effectively deal with this if it remains a cadet run program.


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## Teufel (Jan 3, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> Another perspective on this issue, this time featured in Salon:
> 
> Another scandal at West Point: Where secrecy comes before honor


Truscott resigned his commission to avoid going to Vietnam 13 months after graduating from West Point so I'll take his points with a grain of salt. He graduated in 69 so it's not like Vietnam was an unknown commodity while he was a student.


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## Kraut783 (Jan 3, 2021)

Thanks Teufel, I was wondering the back story on him....especially when his bio in the story has him graduating West Point, but no military service listed.


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## BloodStripe (Jan 3, 2021)

The Hate Ape said:


> Believe me I dig it and have the utmost respect for tradition & lineage but honor is handed down in a forge not a delivery room.
> 
> Of course not. I dont think this situation at west point is a no harm/foul either Im just saying some of these reactions coming out of the woods come off a little theatrical.



I think they should be held to a higher standard than a typical college student, not to mention they took a slot from someone whom probably has a higher moral compass. Any other college student in that same scenario gets kicked out of school. Integrity is doing the right thing even when nobody is looking.


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## The Hate Ape (Jan 4, 2021)

BloodStripe said:


> I think they should be held to a higher standard than a typical college student, not to mention they took a slot from someone whom probably has a higher moral compass. Any other college student in that same scenario gets kicked out of school. Integrity is doing the right thing even when nobody is looking.


Yes, exactly - the 70+ students who confessed to cheating were selected for the slots they currently hold. Either theres a serious problem with the processes of the institution or this is an isolated incident.

If you have faith in West Point’s ability to select & produce top level officers, have faith in their ability to manage a trivial situation such as this. 

They know what they’re doing is all Im saying.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 4, 2021)

For comparison purposes, here's an article on cheating at another elite school:
Cheating at Yale: Students get honest about academic dishonesty


> The most recent full academic year for which ExComm data is available is 2016–17. That year, 45 students were charged with academic dishonesty. Of those, no students had their degree withheld, two were suspended, three were put on probation, 21 were reprimanded, eight had charges withdrawn and four were found not guilty. One student was expelled.



"Yale isn't West Point" yeah, I know that.


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## Devildoc (Jan 4, 2021)

It's merely a symptom of a much bigger problem in most academic institutions, which is arbitrary and capricious justice with a sliding scale of rules.  It's like 'Who's Line Is It Anyway?': the rules are made up and the points don't matter.  College honor courts overlook sexual assaults but want to toss out someone who cheats on an exam.  Athletes held to a different standard.  Don't get me started on the greek system.

I know service academies are supposed to be held to a higher standard--and they should--but why are people surprised when college teenagers gonna teenage?


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## BloodStripe (Jan 4, 2021)

As a current Navy employee, at some point if those midshipmen stick around long enough they'll be my boss. The excuse of they are just teenagers is a copout. 

Every day midshipmen are challenged to follow the Navy's core values of honor, courage, and commitment. Those guilty have shown they lack all those, specifically honor and courage. How many more students knew of the cheating but failed to say anything? Part of being an officer is doing the right thing even when it's hard. Some of them will have to face much more difficult choices in a few short months when they are leading sailors/Marines. 

We ask this daily of young enlistees and have seen many fry and lose their careers because teenagers gonna teenage. Ones actions are their own responsibility and nobody else's. Don't blame it on them just being teenagers or college students.


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## Devildoc (Jan 4, 2021)

My 'N' of 1:  A friend of mine went to Annapolis (class of 90).  Went SWO, served on all sorts of boats big and small, retired in 2014 a captain.  I guess he was a good officer, but I don't know much about how his FITREPS were; but to this day he brags to me about how drunk he'd get, the girls he'd screw, how he'd sneak out of the barracks and generally be a college kid.  Sometimes he got caught, sometimes he didn't.  He walks the fence with this, trying to be both 'boys-will-be-boys' and 'these-are-future-leaders-and-this-is-unacceptable'.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 4, 2021)

Devildoc said:


> My 'N' of 1:  A friend of mine went to Annapolis (class of 90).  Went SWO, served on all sorts of boats big and small, retired in 2014 a captain.  I guess he was a good officer, but I don't know much about how his FITREPS were; but to this day he brags to me about how drunk he'd get, the girls he'd screw, how he'd sneak out of the barracks and generally be a college kid.  Sometimes he got caught, sometimes he didn't.  He walks the fence with this, trying to be both 'boys-will-be-boys' and 'these-are-future-leaders-and-this-is-unacceptable'.



My BiL is a Naval Academy grad.  The Naval Academy experience is significantly different from every other service Academy because it's in a Capitol city that is fairly large.  You walk through the gates and you're literally in Annapolis.  I would say they only comparable experience is "The Citadel" for an SMC.  I've heard a bunch of stories about how they'd rent hotel rooms in Annapolis and party, take off their uniforms and blend into the crowd.  

West Point? There are bars in a few of the towns outside of Post, but the size of those places are tiny.  Most of the cadets go to NYC to do their partying.  

At VMI, even first classmen we could not be in public out of uniform.  If we went to houses of host families or cadets whose folks leased places out in the county we'd often taken off our uniforms and put our gym clothes to be comfortable.  But no one had civilian clothes unless it was a party that got a permit approved.  Lexington, VA, had four bars at the time, a few more now, but it's still a tiny place.  And the Commandants staff would patrol up town all weekend looking for drunken cadets.


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## Devildoc (Jan 4, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> My BiL is a Naval Academy grad.  The Naval Academy experience is significantly different from every other service Academy because it's in a Capitol city that is fairly large.  You walk through the gates and you're literally in Annapolis.  I would say they only comparable experience is "The Citadel" for an SMC.  I've heard a bunch of stories about how they'd rent hotel rooms in Annapolis and party, take off their uniforms and blend into the crowd.
> 
> West Point? There are bars in a few of the towns outside of Post, but the size of those places are tiny.  Most of the cadets go to NYC to do their partying.
> 
> At VMI, even first classmen we could not be in public out of uniform.  If we went to houses of host families or cadets whose folks leased places out in the county we'd often taken off our uniforms and put our gym clothes to be comfortable.  But no one had civilian clothes unless it was a party that got a permit approved.  Lexington, VA, had four bars at the time, a few more now, but it's still a tiny place.  And the Commandants staff would patrol up town all weekend looking for drunken cadets.



Yeah, I have been to both places (West Point and Annapolis).  Beautiful settings both, and I can absolutely see how the city setting is enticing if you are on the other side of the wall.  West point is a bit too much in-the-sticks for me.


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## The Hate Ape (Jan 4, 2021)

BloodStripe said:


> As a current Navy employee, at some point if those midshipmen stick around long enough they'll be my boss. The excuse of they are just teenagers is a copout.
> 
> Every day midshipmen are challenged to follow the Navy's core values of honor, courage, and commitment. Those guilty have shown they lack all those, specifically honor and courage. How many more students knew of the cheating but failed to say anything? Part of being an officer is doing the right thing even when it's hard. Some of them will have to face much more difficult choices in a few short months when they are leading sailors/Marines.
> 
> We ask this daily of young enlistees and have seen many fry and lose their careers because teenagers gonna teenage. Ones actions are their own responsibility and nobody else's. Don't blame it on them just being teenagers or college students.



Dude, youre gonna have plenty of officers (many more actually) hailing from places like Penn State, UCLA, Auburn University, Michigan, West Virginia or some random ass college that gave 10x the level of leeway these kids in mil style colleges are getting.

They will all be officers.

Meanwhile we’re all pulling these 70+ honor & courage cards and making assessments of how good they’ll perform in the military over their mistake for which they will obviously be punished for? They will already have endured a tenure at a military school instead of insert-name university so if anything theyre more prepared than your standard entry-level.


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## BloodStripe (Jan 4, 2021)

The Hate Ape said:


> Dude, youre gonna have plenty of officers (many more actually) hailing from places like Penn State, UCLA, Auburn University, Michigan, West Virginia or some random ass college that gave 10x the level of leeway these kids in mil style colleges are getting.
> 
> They will all be officers.
> 
> Meanwhile we’re all pulling these 70+ honor & courage cards and making assessments of how good they’ll perform in the military over their mistake for which they will obviously be punished for? They will already have endured a tenure at a military school instead of insert-name university so if anything theyre more prepared than your standard entry-level.



Tracking, and if those students did the same thing my opinion of them would be equal.


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## Kraut783 (Jan 4, 2021)

Just out of curiosity, I don't know, but...while they are students, they are considered in the military (?), hell, there is a West Point CID office there.  I assume they are subject to UCMJ, right?


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 4, 2021)

Kraut783 said:


> Just out of curiosity, I don't know, but...while they are students, they are considered in the military (?), hell, there is a West Point CID office there.  I assume they are subject to UCMJ, right?



Kind of.  Operation of West Point has it's own AR. AR 150-1 https://armypubs.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/ARN5862_AR150-1_FINAL.pdf

Here's a 2015 Copy Standards of Cadet Conduct: https://www.unibw.de/internationale...rds of Cadet Conduct and Appearance_SEP15.pdf


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## Marauder06 (Jan 7, 2021)

This one is from the West Point grad who wrote the book "Platoon Leader."  Some of you may have seen the movie or read the book.

If West Point Tolerates Cheating, It Violates Its Own Honor Code


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 29, 2021)

Not really West Point, but about Honor Systems.  Currently VMI is under tremendous pressures from the legislature to change a lot of things.  

The Previous Superintendent General (Ret) JH Binford Peay resigned in the fall. An inflection point since the Charlottesville protest was Jackson's statue which had stood in front of Barracks for over 100 years. It was also sculpted and gifted to the Instituted by VMI's first Jewish Graduate. So there is a lot of emotion tied to this.

However, one of the things that is straight up under attack by the press and misinformed legislators is how our honor code even works. The only people they've talked to have been former cadets who were found guilty by a jury of their peers.

The interim Superintendent is Major General (Ret) Cedric T Wins. He sat down with a writer from the Washington Post for an interview regarding the Honor Code at VMI. The writer has been pretty much a scumbag, in my opinion, from the beginning of this over the past 18 months in his attacks of the Institute and the systems that are in place.

Here is the transcript of MG Wins Interview: Interview Transcripts - Governance - Virginia Military Institute


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 29, 2021)

Well the Air Force Academy Corps of Cadets said: HOLD MY BEER.

Cheating scandal during COVID lockdown ensnares 249 Air Force Academy cadets


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## AWP (Jan 29, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> Well the Air Force Academy Corps of Cadets said: HOLD MY BEER.
> 
> Cheating scandal during COVID lockdown ensnares 249 Air Force Academy cadets



Imagine losing a pilot slot to a cheater.


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