# Jump School Question



## Gunz (Feb 20, 2016)

What happens if a guy gets to the door on that first training jump and refuses to go? Does the Jump Master give him a push? Does he unhook, sit back down and await landing when he gets booted out of jump school? Does he get a second chance ? (I'm doubting this one).  Have any of you ever seen a guy fold?


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 20, 2016)

Wonderful question!

Now I will sit here impatiently, awaiting what will hopefully be some great stories.


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## AWP (Feb 20, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> What happens if a guy gets to the door on that first training jump and refuses to go? Does the Jump Master give him a push? Does he unhook, sit back down and await landing when he gets booted out of jump school? Does he get a second chance ? (I'm doubting this one).  Have any of you ever seen a guy fold?



In '93, a boot to their pack tray. Freezing in the door becomes/ is a safety issue so I had no problem with the practice. I don't recall any who froze, took a boot, and continued training.


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## Viper1 (Feb 20, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> What happens if a guy gets to the door on that first training jump and refuses to go? Does the Jump Master give him a push? Does he unhook, sit back down and await landing when he gets booted out of jump school? Does he get a second chance ? (I'm doubting this one).  Have any of you ever seen a guy fold?



As a JM, I would tell the Jumper "Go" three times.  After the third time, we hold the rest of the stick, safely grab Jumper by the back of the back tray, move jumper back, unhook, and sit him in the back and give jumper an order not to touch his equipment.  Plane lands, jumper comes off, and gets JMPI'd by DACO, ABN Commander, and the rigger malfunctions NCO.  If a deficiency or malfunction is found, Jumper made the right choice, no harm no foul.  If the chute passes inspection, Jumper gets UCMJ. 

Thankfully, I had no refusals as a JM, but a Q-course classmate did refuse on an earlier chalk when I started training.  He was removed from the course.

During ABN school, a jumper ten in front of me hesitated and got a punch in the helmet to "assist" the exit. lol


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 20, 2016)

Viper1 said:


> If the chute passes inspection, Jumper gets UCMJ.



I had no idea it was something that could get NJP'd For . "Failure to follow an order?"


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## DA SWO (Feb 20, 2016)

I put both hands on a parachute and assisted a JAG Officer out of a Blackhawk.


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## AWP (Feb 20, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> I put both hands on a parachute and assisted a JAG Officer out of a Blackhawk.



Duh. Protecting your reserve while kicking them....


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## Gunz (Feb 20, 2016)

Talk is cheap but I'd like to try it someday. They do a lot of skydiving in Zephyrhills, FL, not far from here and people older than me are doing it.


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## Gunz (Feb 20, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> I put both hands on a parachute and assisted a JAG Officer out of a Blackhawk.


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## Muppet (Feb 20, 2016)

KIWI injection in jump school if I recall (95) for me. In Division now, you get 3 "GO's". GO GO GO! If not, they will grab your pack tray, unhook you, escort you to front of aircraft, instruct you not to touch you equipment. Once on ground, you will be re-JMPI'd and if no issues are found, you are taken off jump status and with in the week are transferred out of Division. They consider you a scourge that can cause further hesitations with other jumpers....

M.


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## Muppet (Feb 20, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Talk is cheap but I'd like to try it someday. They do a lot of skydiving in Zephyrhills, FL, not far from here and people older than me are doing it.



I have a bunch of brothers I served with that want to do a link up and jump there. I would love to do it but my reconstructed left ankle, right knee and bad back prevents me fro doing so. If I make it, I will provide jump medical coverage with cases of beer on D.Z.

M.


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## AWP (Feb 20, 2016)

Muppet said:


> They consider you a scourge that can cause further hesitations with other jumpers.....



No doubt. There's something about the inside of an airplane that turns it into a walled city with the Plague. Fear, doubt, aggressiveness, apathy... Emotions and behaviors ripple through jumpers and everything's contagious.


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## Gunz (Feb 20, 2016)

Muppet said:


> KIWI Once on ground, you will be re-JMPI'd and if no issues are found, you are taken off jump status and with in the week are transferred out of Division. They consider you a scourge that can cause further hesitations with other jumpers....
> 
> M.




As it should be. With any demanding and dangerous course.

Incidentally, we had a Sgt at F 2/6 who, legend had it, had fallen 500 feet when his chute malfunctioned and _lived. _Every time I saw him I wanted to rub his head for good luck...


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## Muppet (Feb 20, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> As it should be. With any demanding and dangerous course.
> 
> Incidentally, we had a Sgt at F 2/6 who, legend had it, had fallen 500 feet when his chute malfunctioned and _lived. _Every time I saw him I wanted to rub his head for good luck...



I had a few guys fall, 1 did not survive. Me, our other medics and our P.A. (former 18D and CAG guy) all worked him on the DZ, flew him out but he was dead. Did it for the brothers....

M.


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## Gunz (Feb 20, 2016)

Muppet said:


> I had a few guys fall, 1 did not survive. Me, our other medics and our P.A. (former 18D and CAG guy) all worked him on the DZ, flew him out but he was dead. Did it for the brothers....
> 
> M.



Didn't mean to sound insensitive, or trigger up sad visions from the past. RIP to your Airborne mate. In training or war, we lose friends. I still have trouble reconciling myself to our losses. Lifting a Killian's to your bro right now.


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## Muppet (Feb 20, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Didn't mean to sound insensitive, or trigger up sad visions from the past. RIP to your Airborne mate. In training or war, we lose friends. I still have trouble reconciling myself to our losses. Lifting a Killian's to your bro right now.



Thanks brother..

M.


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## RUBSUMLOTION (Feb 20, 2016)

I recently graduated Airborne school, 3 weeks ago, and we had someone freeze on the 4th jump, I don't know how. It was hilarious. 

The guy was probably the 4 man in the chalk/stick. He shuffles to the door but would not let go of his static line. Death grip. The JM safety and JM couldnt get him to let go. So they hit him in his side, he collapsed to the floor, the JM safety secured the static line and the JM picked him up and pushed him out of the aircraft.


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## RUBSUMLOTION (Feb 20, 2016)

JM wasn't dealing with any bullshit on the 4th jump.


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## Muppet (Feb 20, 2016)

While You may think it is funny, some may disagree with me and that's ok but maybe that cat woke up that morning and had a bad feeling. It can happen to any of us. I remember my first jump after destroying my left ankle (surgical repair) and getting a concussion on Sicily DZ. I was terrified. Fucking freaked out but I jumped. With that said. I never saw a jump refusal but every pre jump, every JMPI and every briefing, we got the "talk" on jump refusals. Jump refusals are a true scourge in an Airborne unit. They need to be delt with but I hold no ill will towards them. Sometimes, the fear of jumping gets to you. If you are not scared, you need to re-eval the position you're in.....

M.


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## Gunz (Feb 20, 2016)

RUBSUMLOTION said:


> JM wasn't dealing with any bullshit on the 4th jump.



I guess not. 

Congrats on jump school. Well done.


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## Muppet (Feb 20, 2016)

Oh. You do this long enough, you will see cigarette rolls, complete malfunctions / burn in's and towed jumpers. Gets  to some people.....

M.


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## AWP (Feb 20, 2016)

Muppet said:


> Oh. You do this long enough, you will see cigarette rolls, complete malfunctions / burn in's and towed jumpers. Gets  to some people.....
> 
> M.



I saw what I thought was a double fatality, but only one died that day (the other's reserve was at line stretch when he went behind the trees; his canopy snagged a branch and he lived). Half of the people I met in the sport who have died to date were jumping at the time and the other half was "life" (drunk driver, heart attack, suicide, etc.). Half a dozen cutaways, some guys who did everything wrong and managed to live, some who did everything right and still died, some who could have avoided death/ serious injury if they had just listened, plane crashes.....and the list goes on.
The military side was relatively benign: broken femurs, legs, back, a dislocated shoulder...

The longer you're around it the more you'll see. The same goes for you medical types, firefighters, cops, and a bunch of other hobbies and professions.

Nobody rides for free.


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## Muppet (Feb 20, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I saw what I thought was a double fatality, but only one died that day (the other's reserve was at line stretch when he went behind the trees; his canopy snagged a branch and he lived). Half of the people I met in the sport who have died to date were jumping at the time and the other half was "life" (drunk driver, heart attack, suicide, etc.). Half a dozen cutaways, some guys who did everything wrong and managed to live, some who did everything right and still died, some who could have avoided death/ serious injury if they had just listened, plane crashes.....and the list goes on.
> The military side was relatively benign: broken femurs, legs, back, a dislocated shoulder...
> 
> The longer you're around it the more you'll see. The same goes for you medical types, firefighters, cops, and a bunch of other hobbies and professions.
> ...



Should be a pinned post....

M.


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## Ranger Psych (Feb 20, 2016)

You have the rest of your life to perform immediate and remedial action on your equipment.  It is in your best interest to ensure that you can rapidly effect said actions.

I wouldn't know how jump refusals are handled, as I was in the door for all 5 at Airborne school, and as I... well, watched the birds fly by and then got a buttslap and GO... and went... I have no clue what occurred within the aircraft after my subsequent departure.  Never was even a point of discussion that I can remember within Regiment, although at one point I did have to hang my arm over the cable as a jumper in front of me had a soup sandwich of a pack tray after the trip to where we were headed. If the safety hadn't seen the arm, I wouldn't have let him exit the aircraft as it was just that fucked up looking to my non-JM eyes. Blown bands, static line on the floor and wrapped around his boot (to boot, hurr hurr), and a significant amount of exposed canopy outside of the pack tray to boot. Chicken noodle hoagie doesn't even begin to describe it.

Then again, I was also the prick with about a square yards worth of frayed canopy I'd keep in my cargo pocket and would get positioned by JM's with JM/Safety knowledge, behind cherry-to-batt jumpers. 
CHECK EQUIPMENT
"Hey man, I found this where you were sitting, it's smaller than a full panel you'll be fine"

I wish gopros had been a thing back then, the looks were priceless...


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## Gunz (Feb 20, 2016)

Muppet said:


> Oh. You do this long enough, you will see cigarette rolls, complete malfunctions / burn in's and towed jumpers. Gets  to some people.....
> 
> M.



I can only relate it to firefights. The more of them you live through the odds get a little less in your favor each time.


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## Centermass (Feb 21, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I had no idea it was something that could get NJP'd For . "Failure to follow an order?"



That or more often than not - Terminated his status while in flight. Jump Pay withdrawn, Termination Orders cut. Hazardous Duty Pay withdrawn and reassignment orders cut top a NAP unit. Terminating while "In Flight" was considered the Ultimate Sin. 

During my 15 yrs. as a JM, only had it happen 1 time. Lo and behold, it was my #1 Jumper, in my door. He got the door position as a re-enlistment bonus (Perk) and had over 30 jumps behind him. He was a good kid, but evidently got stage fright never being that close to the door when it was open and in flight. When he froze, my AJM held his stick up, waiting on me. I grabbed him by the helmet, looked him square in the eyes, and yelled at him he had exactly 3 seconds to get this right - tell me right here right now, you going or not? He just turned and went right out the door. We lost about 10-15 seconds of DZ time, but other than that, everyone got out with one more race track. 

I caught up with the kid later and asked WTF? He said he thought we were too low to jump.......

I told him I was glad to see him exit, but never ask for a door position ever again. Other JM's were made aware of this guy as well.  

As for combat jumps, doesn't matter. Your ass is going out the door, like it or not.


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## x SF med (Feb 21, 2016)

Never saw an issue in flight after Jump School. one refusal on a bird, 3rd jump...  All I wanted to do was get the hell out of that noisy assed bird ...  I was anxious  about a jump every time (186), but getting out of that aircraft was my main goal. 
All of the jump injuries I saw were on the DZ or in the ER...  the worst ones were when I was DZMNCO...  and working Womack ER after a Full Division Friday payday jump by the 82nd...

And I only had to pull my reserve once in all those jumps... still have the reserve handle.


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## Gunz (Feb 21, 2016)

I can't imagine--wouldn't want to imagine--a night jump into a hot DZ like some units saw in Normandy.


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## TLDR20 (Feb 21, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> No doubt. There's something about the inside of an airplane that turns it into a walled city with the Plague. Fear, doubt, aggressiveness, apathy... Emotions and behaviors ripple through jumpers and everything's contagious.



I am personally not a fan of jumping, when there are two or three other guys that also hate it, shit gets really scary really quick. You can feel the tension. On the flip side, if everyone jumping with you is gtg, it makes the whole atmosphere way better. 

I jumped with Colombians during their airborne school in Tolemaida, I am pretty sure for some of those guys that was the first time they had been in an Airplane, let alone jumping from one. There was a palpable fear there, we jumped our own stick though, and once they were all off it was a lot more peaceful. Got some foreign wings out of it, so that was cool.


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## TLDR20 (Feb 21, 2016)

I have been lucky to not see too many injuries on DZ's. I saw a dude hit the chute truck trying to get as close as possible to the RV, and one of my buddies dislocated his thumb somehow.


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## DA SWO (Feb 22, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Duh. Protecting your reserve while kicking them....


DUH, Blackhawk= Static JM=Monkey Harness.


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## Gunz (Feb 22, 2016)

For what it's worth I think it takes some balls to jump out of a perfectly functional aircraft--repeatedly--and I admire you guys for it.

You're all fuckin crazy, of course.


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## 8654Maine (Feb 23, 2016)

I only jump out of planes because of the company I keep.  I wouldn't want to lose their respect.  

Deep, dark water is something else.  Love that shit.


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## Gunz (Feb 23, 2016)

8654Maine said:


> I only jump out of planes because of the company I keep.  I wouldn't want to lose their respect. ..


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