# Civil-Military Divide



## Marauder06 (Mar 14, 2013)

I don't post many links to my Facebook page, but I linked this one:

http://vets.syr.edu/the-bachelor-versus-the-war/

It's an op-ed by a student veteran concerning the growing civil-military divide in our country.  Most of us who have served have seen it, but it is really obvious to me as for the first time in my entire life I'm in a community that is not made up of military families.  Many of my classmates, who are highly educated and very well-traveled, have told me that I am the first active-duty combat veteran t hat they have ever talked to.  That was astonishing to me after 12+ years of a nation at war until I realized that there are more people employed by Wal-Mart inside the US than are on active duty CONUS.  Moreover, the nation is not at war, the military is.  Because so few of us have served, because those who serve are ensconced in military bases and in insular communities, and because the wars barely affect the lives of average Americans, the wars and their consequences aren't "real" to most of the US.

I used to be OK with this.  The nation needs to focus on things other than warfare.  Our economy, for one thing.  But with so few people in government, industry, and the rest of US society making the choice to serve, and with military service becoming more and more of a "family affair" (as just one example, my father was in the Army, as was his father, as was my maternal grandfather, several uncles, and oh yeah my wife).  This runs the risk of creating a military caste, which bears the burden for implementing the decisions of the American people, who are becoming more and more disassociated from the military all the time.  This is bad for a number of reasons.

Many of you know we are planning a big conference on this topic for next November.  In the meantime, I'm interested to hear your thoughts on the civil-military divide.  Does it even exist?  If so, what is it?  How have you seen it manifested?  What do you think should be done about it?


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## Dame (Mar 14, 2013)

There is somewhat of a divide based on the factors you've stated. However, I must disagree with the statement "with so few people in government, industry, and the rest of US society making the choice to serve..." Due to the economy being a complete shambles many more people are attempting to enlist for the steady employment and benefits. Unfortunately, I can tell you of three 20-somethings, in just my personal circle, who were rejected at MEPS due to medications they may no longer even take. We as parents try to make sure any illness is treated while our children are young and may possibly grow out of whatever condition it is that requires treatment (childhood asthma or allergies for example). But if you are honest about that, you are rejected outright from serving in any branch, in any capacity. So guess where they end up? In the Coast Guard Auxiliary. They truly want to do their part.


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## reed11b (Mar 14, 2013)

Stop PCSing everyone randomly every few years. Allow the military to become part of the communities they serve in. After so many BRAC actions does the HR commands way of doing things even make sense anymore?
I would also argue the increased use of the NG has counter-balanced the lack of draft as far reducing the civilian-military divide. While I think that combat arms should be in the reserves and the NG should be structured based on the needs of the state they serve, as long as combat units remain in the NG, deploying NG on a regular basis will help.
Lots of other thoughts, I'll try and get them coherent. 
Reed


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## Scotth (Mar 15, 2013)

From my grand parents brothers and sisters thru 7 aunts and uncles, on my Mom's side of the family, through all of my cousins I was the only one to ever serve in any branch of the military until my niece joined.  So basically one person in three generations who served.  Of coarse my niece had to go and fuck up the three generation rule.  

On my niece's Dad side of the family which was equally large, she had one uncle that married into the family and she had one cousin who joined but was quickly booted over multiple bad urine test results.  On that side they had two people who really served in 3 generations.

You can look at other families that will have multiple people serving per generation but that is becoming the abnormal unfortunately.  The desire to serve isn't there because people never see it growing up.  The DNA of military service is almost being bread out of most families these days.


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## Dame (Mar 15, 2013)

Scotth said:


> You can look at other families that will have multiple people serving per generation but that is becoming the abnormal unfortunately. The desire to serve isn't there because people never see it growing up. The DNA of military service is almost being bread out of most families these days.


 
Scotth, Again I have to say it has more to do with who they will accept based on very old standards at MEPS. Both my father and Mike's father served. I tried to go AF but was too short for the academy standards at the time. My oldest was rejected for meds he hadn't been on in over a year. I would love to see some updating of those standards but they have more folks enlisting now so loosening them isn't really necessary.


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## goon175 (Mar 15, 2013)

80% of the people I run into treat the military like second class citizens who are more than deserving of their pity. "Thank you for your service in Iraq, it's too bad you couldn't get into college". It is not seen as a noble profession that one aspires to be a part of, it is seen as a last resort for those that couldn't make it anywhere else.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 15, 2013)

goon175 said:


> 80% of the people I run into treat the military like second class citizens who are more than deserving of their pity. "Thank you for your service in Iraq, it's too bad you couldn't get into college". It is not seen as a noble profession that one aspires to be a part of, it is seen as a last resort for those that couldn't make it anywhere else.


 
"You're in the Army... and you got into Yale?"  :-/


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## chaarsadobeest (Mar 15, 2013)

Pardon my negativity, but an enormous chunk of the Soldiers (dare I say majority) who I have encountered joined because they did not have anywhere else to go. The concepts of duty, service, patriotism, etc. were not considered in their decision, often to their own admission.


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## goon175 (Mar 15, 2013)

Maybe I just attract a more quality applicant, I don't know, but in my experience very few join out of desperation. The ones who are looking to join out of desperation are usually the ones that are not eligible for service.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 15, 2013)

I have been in 18 years and I don't think I can can recall more than an handful that joined because they were out of other options.


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 15, 2013)

Dame said:


> Scotth, Again I have to say it has more to do with who they will accept based on very old standards at MEPS. Both my father and Mike's father served. I tried to go AF but was too short for the academy standards at the time. My oldest was rejected for meds he hadn't been on in over a year. I would love to see some updating of those standards but they have more folks enlisting now so loosening them isn't really necessary.


That's 2 (personal) examples out of how many that try to join every year? I'd say that's far more the exception than it is the rule. And the standards might need to be updated, but they do NOT need to be loosened at MEPS or in the military Navy, since I'll speak just from what I see. Every day I see at least a dozen people in uniform and think to myself, "how the fuck did they get in/are they still in"? Who knows, maybe they think the same thing about me. 

As for the divide, I'll offer my speculation. It seems that a majority of the teen-30something crowd is apathetic about things that don't directly impact them somehow. They just don't care. They're not volunteering, they're not going to basic training, they're not standing watch, they're not going out on patrol, they're not chipping paint, they're not flying planes or helos, they're not shooting bad guys in the face, etc... Ask someone in that age group if any of the following names ring a bell: Chesty Puller, Hap Arnold, Gen. McChrystal, Adm. McRaven, Gen. Schwarzkopf, Michael Murphy, Dakota Meyer, Sal Guinta, etc. Probably a bunch of blank stares. Add on top of that the desire to be spoon fed everything. Look at the recent batch of new members here. They come here (and I would suspect other sites as well) and expect information to be handed out while putting forth no effort to find it on their own. One of the new guys even titled his thread somewhere "Teach Me".
That's all I have for now and again, the second part is purely speculation.


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 15, 2013)

goon175 said:


> *Maybe I just attract a more quality applicant*, I don't know, but in my experience very few join out of desperation. The ones who are looking to join out of desperation are usually the ones that are not eligible for service.


That's because you go around to high schools telling kids you don't fucking want them if the Army is their last option.


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## goon175 (Mar 15, 2013)

Might be some truth to that...haha


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## Worldweaver (Mar 15, 2013)

Here's an insightful look into the opinions of a growing number of general public. 
"For more than a decade, Congress and the Pentagon have spent money on the nation's 1.3 million active-duty troops and their families. Salaries and benefits soared far above civilian compensation, military bases and housing were refurbished, support services like day care, family counseling and on-base college courses were expanded.
Now comes the reckoning. These personnel costs, necessary and warranted for those bearing the burden of war, are threatening to wreck the military, squeezing the accounts meant to fix or replace gear worn from a decade of war, for research and development, and for new missions in, say, Africa.
But the data is clear. Since 2001, total military compensation, including pay and benefits, grew by 20.5 percent, while comparable private-sector civilian pay did not increase at all, according to a broad Pentagon review of pay and compensation released last year. The cost of military compensation rose steeply even though the size of the active-duty force grew by only 3 percent during that period.
Part of the reason was that Congress mandated that military personnel should get an annual pay raise 1 to 1.5 percent higher than the Employment Cost Index, which measures civilian earnings."
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2013/01/30/defense-budget-cuts_n_2584099.html
I enjoyed reading this rebuttal on Rangerup.  Pay special attention to the original title of Mr. Woods article.  http://rhinoden.rangerup.com/the-luxury-of-being-wrong/
"This lamentable array of words, a cheap literary hook designed to ensnare fiscally paranoid readers by construing military members as trough-feeding elites defensively crouched over burgeoning piles of cash, was inexplicably changed Tuesday. But not before Mr. Wood managed to rack up nearly 40,000 votes of approval on Facebook. And not before he managed to cultivate an ugly and undeserved myth that can only harm the soul of a nation: the myth that America’s fighting men and women are some sort of high-on-the-hog mercenary force"


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## DA SWO (Mar 16, 2013)

Worldweaver said:


> Here's an insightful look into the opinions of a growing number of general public.
> "For more than a decade, Congress and the Pentagon have spent money on the nation's 1.3 million active-duty troops and their families. Salaries and benefits soared far above civilian compensation, military bases and housing were refurbished, support services like day care, family counseling and on-base college courses were expanded.
> Now comes the reckoning. These personnel costs, necessary and warranted for those bearing the burden of war, are threatening to wreck the military, squeezing the accounts meant to fix or replace gear worn from a decade of war, for research and development, and for new missions in, say, Africa.
> But the data is clear. Since 2001, total military compensation, including pay and benefits, grew by 20.5 percent, while comparable private-sector civilian pay did not increase at all, according to a broad Pentagon review of pay and compensation released last year. The cost of military compensation rose steeply even though the size of the active-duty force grew by only 3 percent during that period.
> ...


Those pay raises were required because we were at war with a volunteer Army.
Those pay raises would not have been required had more American's volunteered when times were good.

Some of those pay raises go away real soon; Combat Pay (this needs overhaul).  TSGLI (I may have an incorrect acronym). and a few others.

Some of these have gone away: Tax free pay has been reduced to days actually in the war zone.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 16, 2013)

SOWT said:


> Those pay raises were required because we were at war with a volunteer Army.
> Those pay raises would not have been required had more American's volunteered when times were good.
> 
> Some of those pay raises go away real soon; Combat Pay (this needs overhaul). TSGLI (I may have an incorrect acronym). and a few others.
> ...


 
I agree.  And the last bit should have happened a loooong time ago.  All the old policy did was to encourage rampant abuse of the system.


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## DA SWO (Mar 16, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> I agree. And the last bit should have happened a loooong time ago. All the old policy did was to encourage rampant abuse of the system.


Yes.  Funny thing, when I was flying in/out of El Salvador we got $0.00 combat pay because we did not spend 7 consecutive days on the ground.

When did the 1 day=pay start?  Bosnia?

I think the 7 days for pay (not necessarily consecutive) would have eliminated the abuse we saw from the AF and Army (Navy) in Bosnia, Kosovo, and CentCom AOR's.

We also need a 3 tiered combat pay system.  Guys/gals in Afghanistan with a real threat get top level.

Folks in Kuwait (3rd Army types for the most part) get the next level, and missions in Bosnia/Kosovo get a minimum level of pay.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 16, 2013)

I thought there was already that with Hazard pay and combat tax exclusion. Figure out what pays more and have that be the "in the shit" bit


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## Tropicana98 (Mar 17, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> "You're in the Army... and you got into Yale?" :-/


 
Honestly, it doesn't even go that far "You're in the Army and you have a degree?!?!?!" is sufficient enough to raise eyebrows.


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## james skeans (Apr 25, 2013)

I think the problem may be some civilians may see people in the Armed Forces as a threat--something like if Marshall Law was declared the soldiers may be the ones that lock them up. I think they see an arm of the U.S. government that may one day be used against them.But i know in my heart that soldiers are Americans just like civilians,with families here in the States, and are no different than civilians other than being trained and most have seen the horrors of war.I think in my heart that if a time comes, most Armed Forces personnel would remember their oath to the Constitution and not to the president--and would be against any kind of war with the American civilian people.Thank you for your service as well


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## Marauder06 (Apr 25, 2013)

What's Marshall Law?


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## Confederate Son (Apr 25, 2013)

I don't give most civilians enough credit to have a intellectual enough of a conversation with themselves to arrive at the thought that the possibility exits they may one day be under Marshall Law. Your average American these days cares more about what's happening on American Idol than what's actually happening on America. To me it's not so much a divide as in a rift..as it is a disconnect.. as in they don't have a freakn clue. Unless you have a close family member serving, you're oblivious to what being a professional soldier really means. Especially after 9/11.

I will admit I could be dead balls wrong, but it seems to me support for the Professional Soldier is as high as it's ever been when you look at the number of Associations and Foundations geared towards supporting the Fallen or helping Warriors transition. I spend allllot of time watching the Military Channel,  browsing forums such as this one or reading books written by your peers or those fortunate enough to be allowed "inside". My judgement may be impaired.

The GP however does not have a clue.. but they don't have a clue about much so it's not just a Military thing. I hope that each and every one of you know however that regardless of the GP's ignorance there's a segment out there who not only supports you to the fullest, but would lay down our lives to support YOU as well.


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## RackMaster (Apr 25, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> What's Marshall Law?


 
Apparently a comic book hero from the 80's.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshal_Law_(comics)







Or a character from the game Tekken.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marshall_Law_(Tekken)


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## Coyote (Apr 25, 2013)

The divide is huge up here, at least in my general area. A good chunk of people up here have the idea that the USMC is an SAS type unit and all we are is strictly peace keepers. Doesn't help when our country was run by passive pussies in the not too distant past that degraded our Armed Forces. We also should be doing a ton more to get involved in local communities.


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## Short Round (May 1, 2013)

I had the immense pleasure of being seated with a self proclaimed "intellectual" on a flight from San Diego to DC while traveling to FWIC in Quantico. In the spirit of polite conversation I intially entertained his thinly veiled bragging over his cultural post graduate work with Kent State.

This lasted roughly twenty minutes at which point he finally thought to ask what my name was/ what I did. Attempting to avoid further explanation I simply said that I was active duty Marine Corps and was en route to a formal school in Virginia. This was my first mistake. What followed was a one way conversation peppered with statements resembling "no offense" and "it's just my opinion but...". He commenced to share how he thought it ridiculous that we needed so many different branches of a military, why the GI Bill/ TA programs were the "anchor dragging the country to the bottom", and how we needed to trim the fat ( in refrence to "jet carriers", large "war fighter planes", and other techonolgies I assume he saw on Modern Marvels).

At this juncture it became very clear to me that to further discuss the military would certainly only invite more excellent monolouges so I attempted to redirect our ship to the safe port of college. In an effort to find common ground I shared that I was taking a class on cultural anthropolgy through a local community college aboard Camp Pendleton. This was mistake number two. I was immediately given a hip pocket class on "how real college works". After learning my lesson my new professor once again returned to sharing his exploits and educating me on the "real tolls" of the "Bush Wars". Eventually I politely excused myself to my ipod for the remainder of the flight so as to reflect on all that I had learned.

I truly believe that the divide between the civillain world and our military community is a rift that is only getting bigger because of people like him. I respect everyone I meet until proven otherwise because this is what the military has taught me. I work hard towards my goals and I never take opportunities for granted because I appreciate what the military has given me. This man immediatly assumed that I was an inferior individual, someone to pity and look down on and yet he knew nothing about myself or my community. Our values were simply too far apart to have any effective communication. While this was an isolated incident in my life it has only served to strenghten my opinion that the values of our military make us different people and that this is why the rift with our own society exists.


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## Confederate Son (May 1, 2013)

I applaud your discipline Short Round... Wish I had a little more at times. I think  you can chalk that up to most of you who wear the uniform know and "get it" and  do not require that anyone else does. Due respect would be good though, but I guess if some are that ignorant to begin with it would be a little much to ask that they should know when it's required or deserved.


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## Atlas (May 1, 2013)

I fear my generation is only going to expand the divide.  I don't think its ignorance.  Ignorance is not knowing.  People now don't care, they don't care to know, they don't care to learn the facts.  They'll listen to what they end up hearing in passing but they wont take the time to sit down and do some real leg work to find the truth or form an opinion of their own.

The thing that's stuck with me was 9/11.  Immediately after everyone was pro country and saluting our service member because 'HOLY SHIT! We really need them'.  Then as the years passed and that all faded and we are right back to where we were in the 90s.  Comfortable.


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## Seajack (May 1, 2013)

It might be just regional, a fad, bright eyed "pre-college opinions" or something else, but I've noticed a lot more interest in the military, in males of my age group. Not necessarily aspiring to join, but I've counted more than a few people reading military related books, talking about it in a non-political/critical manner, and actually seeing it as a respectful vocation. I'd say adults are probably the worst. A lack of interest almost indefinitely results in a lack of understanding, which I would say is the driving "force" behind the divide.


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## asewland (May 2, 2013)

Seajack said:


> It might be just regional, a fad, bright eyed "pre-college opinions" or something else, but I've noticed a lot more interest in the military, in males of my age group. Not necessarily aspiring to join, but I've counted more than a few people reading military related books, talking about it in a non-political/critical manner, and actually seeing it as a respectful vocation. I'd say adults are probably the worst. A lack of interest almost indefinitely results in a lack of understanding, which I would say is the driving "force" behind the divide.


I agree w/ you on the fact that my generation (late Ys/early Zs) takes a lot more interest in the military than its predecessors. I personally think that a lot of renewed interest comes from recent movies and documentaries that have made post 9/11 about the military and especially first-person shooters like Call of Duty, Medal of Honor, etc. (I know, I know, they're completely unrealistic but you have to admit they do spark interest in today's generation)

Just my .02 on the matter


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## Spider6 (May 7, 2013)

reed11b said:


> Stop PCSing everyone randomly every few years. Allow the military to become part of the communities they serve in. After so many BRAC actions does the HR commands way of doing things even make sense anymore?
> I would also argue the increased use of the NG has counter-balanced the lack of draft as far reducing the civilian-military divide. While I think that combat arms should be in the reserves and the NG should be structured based on the needs of the state they serve, as long as combat units remain in the NG, deploying NG on a regular basis will help.
> Lots of other thoughts, I'll try and get them coherent.
> Reed


 
Concur:  And additionally the National Guard is increased its focus on DSCA operations.  The Homeland Response Force was passed over by Title 10 and given to NGB about 5 years ago.  There are 10, one for each FEMA Region.  I was fortunate to get hired on ADOS based on my LEO experience.  We conduct a lot of inter agency training.  Truth be told I'm sitting in a Continuity Operations Class at the Georgia Public Safety Training Center right now along with local fire chiefs, police and the like.  Bridging the gap in other words!


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## RetPara (May 13, 2013)

reed11b said:


> Stop PCSing everyone randomly every few years. Allow the military to become part of the communities they serve in. After so many BRAC actions does the HR commands way of doing things even make sense anymore?
> I would also argue the increased use of the NG has counter-balanced the lack of draft as far reducing the civilian-military divide. While I think that combat arms should be in the reserves and the NG should be structured based on the needs of the state they serve, as long as combat units remain in the NG, deploying NG on a regular basis will help.
> Lots of other thoughts, I'll try and get them coherent.
> Reed


 
Actually with the reduced level of overseas long tours available in the future, that may be possible. 

I highly recommend reading H. R. McMasters "Dereliction of Duty" which was a study of the Joint Chiefs of Staff's failure to stop the Vietnam War and allow LBJ to run it directly.   The major pertinent point to your comment is that the National Guard and Reserve force structure was changed after Vietnam.   Deliberately the primary logistical and support chain was relegated to the NG with fewer combat arms units.   This was done to ensure that the United States could not go to war, as it had in Vietnam, without the support of the general populace.  This was evident in both DS/DS and since 9/11.  I have a vivid memory of sitting in Daharan from August on watching the Army Times list all the NG and Reserve units being activated.  While there plenty of logistical, maintenance, and other support units being called up from the hinter lands...  what struck me was that usually half the list was Independent Truck Company, XXNG, Podunk, XX.  

I strongly disagree with you on forming NG units to fit the need of the states.  If the state wishes to, it can fund it's own state level militia with surplus equipment (trucks, medical, and engineer vehicles mainly) manned by volunteers.  The federal dollars being expended is a less expensive way of funding an expanded Reserve capability, hence the federal hook.  A intermediate solution might be to shift force structure from the NG to the Reserve.  Leaving the NG a much smaller force.  The disadvantage I see to the NG vs the Reserve is the state level politics that play directly into the chain of command.


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## Marine0311 (May 13, 2013)

"You were in Iraq....where is that?"
"You were in a war?" "When"

"Let me tell you how I would have run the war/combat/killed bad guys/if I was a General"

:wall:


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## Worldweaver (Apr 16, 2014)

http://www.nytimes.com/2014/04/16/opinion/veterans-and-white-supremacy.html?_r=0

I don't expect much from the nytimes/huffpo crowd, but here's a peak behind the curtain.  While the article is poorly supported and highly bias (it is an opinion piece) the most alarming is the comment section, and what some of the "highly rated" posts entail. 

Comment Section:
_
"Receiving military training and then serving in an actual conflict inherently teaches a person to solve problems with violence. We shouldn't be surprised that a portion of such people internalize and get stuck on that lesson. The article lists factors that bring this out, factors we should minimize. But the real cure is not to create such people in the first place. War has many costs, some of them are long delayed and indirect."

"Although a generalization, the military is a magnet for troubled kids. They go into the military less capable and often poor, and they emerge under-equipped for the real world. Their friends back on the home front have meanwhile gone to college or gained useful work experience. No wonder vets are susceptible."_
_
_


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## Centermass (Apr 16, 2014)

Gotta love the NY Times. Solidifying their place as idiots in journalistic history one article at a time......


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 16, 2014)

Its funny, I had a $75k a year job as a lic plumber before joining the NG. I ended up going full in on the GWOT and had to let that job go, along with my licence. Now its a royal pain in the ass to get back into plumbing and with the injuries I acquired from my service its pretty much a no-go. Besides that, before joining I was what some would call a "hell raiser" getting into bar fights was usual. What I took away from my service was not violence as a problem solving technique, although it can be appropriate at times. But more so, leadership, discipline, and ability to see and solve a problem without direction or supervision as the problem developed, not waiting for the after effects, etc. I mean those three things alone are mostly void in modern civilian sector. But I could list a few.pages of shit I learned and skills I developed that are unseen in the civilian sector.

I think its quite ignorant of people not to understand and exploit the benefits that returning veterans offer the civilian sector. I would take a 4 year service veteran over a 4 year undergraduate any day of the week...


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## AWP (Apr 16, 2014)

Wait, I'm a vet and from the south...why am I not illiterate and at home beating my slaves?


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## racing_kitty (Apr 16, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> Wait, I'm a vet and from the south...why am I not illiterate and at home beating my slaves?



Because the shame of not being able to keep your wife in front of the stove while barefoot and perpetually pregnant was just too much for your pretty li'l head to bear?


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## Marine0311 (Apr 16, 2014)

Short Round said:


> I had the immense pleasure of being seated with a self proclaimed "intellectual" on a flight from San Diego to DC while traveling to FWIC in Quantico. In the spirit of polite conversation I intially entertained his thinly veiled bragging over his cultural post graduate work with Kent State.
> 
> This lasted roughly twenty minutes at which point he finally thought to ask what my name was/ what I did. Attempting to avoid further explanation I simply said that I was active duty Marine Corps and was en route to a formal school in Virginia. This was my first mistake. What followed was a one way conversation peppered with statements resembling "no offense" and "it's just my opinion but...". He commenced to share how he thought it ridiculous that we needed so many different branches of a military, why the GI Bill/ TA programs were the "anchor dragging the country to the bottom", and how we needed to trim the fat ( in refrence to "jet carriers", large "war fighter planes", and other technologies I assume he saw on Modern Marvels).
> 
> ...





Confederate Son said:


> I don't give most civilians enough credit to have a intellectual enough of a conversation with themselves to arrive at the thought that the possibility exits they may one day be under Marshall Law. Your average American these days cares more about what's happening on American Idol than what's actually happening on America. To me it's not so much a divide as in a rift..as it is a disconnect.. as in they don't have a freakn clue. Unless you have a close family member serving, you're oblivious to what being a professional soldier really means. Especially after 9/11.
> 
> I will admit I could be dead balls wrong, but it seems to me support for the Professional Soldier is as high as it's ever been when you look at the number of Associations and Foundations geared towards supporting the Fallen or helping Warriors transition. I spend allllot of time watching the Military Channel,  browsing forums such as this one or reading books written by your peers or those fortunate enough to be allowed "inside". My judgement may be impaired.
> 
> The GP however does not have a clue.. but they don't have a clue about much so it's not just a Military thing. I hope that each and every one of you know however that regardless of the GP's ignorance there's a segment out there who not only supports you to the fullest, but would lay down our lives to support YOU as well.



I wish I could agree more. 

Sometimes I don't care enough to debate with people. I don't know I think something is wrong with me.


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## AWP (Apr 16, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> Because the shame of not being able to keep your wife in front of the stove while barefoot and perpetually pregnant was just too much for your pretty li'l head to bear?


 
You want to talk about "shame?" She's from Pennsylvania, the WRONG side of the Mason-Dixon.

So, I can read, I don't own slaves, and I married a Yankee?
Worst.
Native Floridian.
EVAR.


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## x SF med (Apr 16, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> You want to talk about "shame?" She's from Pennsylvania, the WRONG side of the Mason-Dixon.
> 
> So, I can read, I don't own slaves, and I married a Yankee?
> Worst.
> ...



You forgot the fact you're an AWP too...  shouldn't you be watching NASCAR and wrasslin gators?


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## AWP (Apr 17, 2014)

NASCAR is the Nickelback of auto racing.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 17, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> NASCAR is the Nickelback of auto racing.


You will die a lonely hillbilly death.... traitor!


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## RustyShackleford (Apr 17, 2014)

Worldweaver said:


> _
> "Although a generalization, the military is a magnet for troubled kids. They go into the military less capable and often poor, and they emerge under-equipped for the real world. Their friends back on the home front have meanwhile gone to college or gained useful work experience. No wonder vets are susceptible."_


 
I love this quote.  Over the years I can't recall how many times I have heard guys say something along the lines of "I would have joined the Army, but I had to go to college" or "It's too bad you had to join the Army..."

After wearing a plate carrier around my neighborhood loaded with beer last year for halloween I was reminded how out of touch people in and around my age group really are.


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## AWP (Apr 17, 2014)

JAB said:


> You will die a lonely hillbilly death.... traitor!


 
Ha!

It isn't what it used to be, not even close. The France family turned its back on the sport to create the soccer mom-based product you have today. I grew up on it, but haven't watched a race in 20 years. It is no more exiting to watch than golf.


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## TLDR20 (Apr 17, 2014)

I think that the culture of " I am a wolf /lion / sheepdog....insert gay animal analogy here," and then referring to EVERYONE else as "sheep" has something to do with how veterans are perceived. Veterans can be their own worst enemy. I witness it at school. Guys in operator hats talking shit about this and that, those "sheep" are sitting there listening to the veteran cuss and talk disrespectfully, or they are listening to the poor grammar with which they(veterans) talk, and the stereotype is reinforced.  Not to mention those "sheep" are some day going to be bosses and decision makers. We as veterans need to do a better job representing ourselves.

Also every experience doesn't relate to an experience you had in the military, you would think otherwise from listening to some people talk.


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## RustyShackleford (Apr 17, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> I think that the culture of " I am a wolf /lion / sheepdog....insert gay animal analogy here," and then referring to EVERYONE else as sheep has something to do with how veterans are perceived. Veterans can be there own worst enemy. I witness it at school. Guys in operator hats talking shit about this and that, those "sheep" are sitting there listening to the veteran cuss and talk disrespectfully, or they are listening to the poor grammar with which they talk, and the stereotype is reinforced.  Not too mention those sheep are some day going to be bosses and decision makers. We as veterans need to do a better job representing ourselves.
> 
> Also every experience doesn't relate to an experience you had in the military, you would think otherwise from listening to some people talk.


 
The sheepdog shit is just lame.  Always has been and it always will be.

Regarding veterans and perception, I witnessed it when I worked in DC.  Guys (veterans) constantly ragging on non-vets, particularly the college kids.  Rather than taking them to the side and teaching them a thing or two, they would constantly ride their asses.  The funny thing is that very few of those "warriors" had or bothered to get their degree which translates into promotion points and now a lot of them are sitting there being supervised by those same kids they used to rag.


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