# Piston gun myths or realities ??



## 8'Duece (Mar 27, 2011)

*Having owned a piston rifle for over a year now I've been very pleased with the results of the rifle. It works as advertised !!  The only breaking I've experience is the holes in paper and ping sound on steel down range. *

*However I see many a board that knocks the Piston gun and there seems alot of BS or myth in the reasons why. *

*1. Carrior tilt: This has to be the most overhyped, over talked issue with piston guns. LWRC practically eliminated all carrier tilt from the outset with it's carrier design, for just this purpose. LMT and POF have done the same. I've got about 700 rounds through my LWRC and there is absolutely no chewing on the buffer as a result of this hype about "carrior tilt" *

*2. Barrel degradation: Really ? Anymore barrel degradation than any other rifle that has thousands and thousands of rounds through the bore ?? LWRC uses their propietary NICOR treatment I cant find nor see on paper any degradation of the barrel after 700 rounds (not exactly enough to see but you get my meaning) All barrels whether Mil Spec or Cold forged hammer are going to degrade over time. It's the laws of physics. *

*3. Gas keys breaking : Uhhh, most carriers are now a one piece forged steel without a true gas key like a DI gun. This also helped in reducing the suppossed carrier tilts issue. *

*4. Broken Op rods:  I've yet to hear of this on a mass scale so it's certainly not some kind of apocolyptic pandemic of any sort.  I remember hearing of one op rod breaking a few years back on a POF rifle during a carbine class.  The op rod was replaced and the shooter whent back to putting holes in paper.  *

*Anymore reasons that others have had to pleasure to read from the piston rifle haters ?? *


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## policemedic (Mar 27, 2011)

I love the guys at LWRCi, and their rifles are shit hot.  In fact, I've been trying to get my boss to trade our Colts for LWRCi M6 systems (partially, but not totally, due to the piston design). And no, he's not going for it :-|

But then again, I've never had a problem with my DI rifle even when it's dirty.  Good lubrication (not dunking it in CLP :eek: ) helps.

My disclaimer is that my AR is well-cared for and is used in a non-sandy urban environment (although it does get jostled around in the car).


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 27, 2011)

8'Duece said:


> *Having owned a piston rifle for over a year now I've been very pleased with the results of the rifle. It works as advertised !! The only breaking I've experience is the holes in paper and ping sound on steel down range. *
> 
> *However I see many a board that knocks the Piston gun and there seems alot of BS or myth in the reasons why. *
> 
> ...



I don’t think I have ever said I hate piston AR’s, I do think they have their place. I would opt for a piston rifle if my mission was focused around CQB or if I need to run suppressed. However, if I was running full spectrum missions where I would have to make accurate long range shots, CQB, general purpose ect, I would opt with DI due to the accuracy testing I was involved with in the past. Our testing showed that DI maintains its accuracy longer than Pistons and are more accurate out of the box, granted we are talking the difference between 1.5 to 3 MOA but that is substantial at 500 yards. All in all I would say if “you” love your piston, then stick with it. However, I would also say that you should have some substantial testing and data to back up a claim that one is better than the other (each of them have benefits and down sides).;)


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## HOLLiS (Mar 28, 2011)

Gas pistons have been around for a long time.   Only probably I have seen with gas piston guns, is the pistons don't get  clean.   M16, M1 Garand, SVT 40, etc.

IMHO, it boils down to the shooter.............   Also it helps if she/he had a Gunny to insure they knew who to clean/maintain the rifle.


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## policemedic (Mar 28, 2011)

JAB said:


> Our testing showed that DI maintains its accuracy longer than Pistons and are more accurate out of the box, granted we are talking the difference between 1.5 to 3 MOA but that is substantial at 500 yards.



Which rifles did you test?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 28, 2011)

HK416 upper, M16A4 and M4.

The 416 performed excellent and outperformed both the M16 and M4 in malfunctions. M16/M4’s would go roughly 750 rounds without stoppages (mostly due to not cleaning) the 416 started to have some feeding issues around 2500 rounds without cleaning. Accuracy wise, the M16 performed the best maintaining 1-1.5 MOA throughout the entire tests. The M4’s varied from 1-2 MOA and both the M16 and M4 improved over increased round count (without cleaning). The 416 held steady at 1.5-3 MOA until roughly 2500-3000 rounds. Accuracy would diminish from there to as bad as 5 MOA. All testing was done with M855 and cross tested with production lot numbers. We also tested MK262 and few other hand loads. We also tested environmental condition (uncontrolled) where the 416 performed better.

Our conclusions were that the gas port in the barrel of the 416 was causing diminishing affects on the accuracy. The gas port of the 416 allowed more gases and carbon to build up into the barrel than the M16/M4’s. We believed this to be caused by the piston system. So we concluded at the end that the 416 and the M4 would not be a good replacement for the Squad Designated Marksman Rifle (SDMR) that was currently the M16A4.


Now outside of the testing I was involved with, I have a few friends who also have piston AR’s and they have also experienced the same problem of diminishing accuracy. It is pretty commonly talked about in the precision rifle community.


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## policemedic (Mar 28, 2011)

Thanks!


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## 8'Duece (Mar 28, 2011)

> The 416 held steady at 1.5-3 MOA until roughly 2500-3000 rounds. Accuracy would diminish from there to as bad as 5 MOA. All testing was done with M855 and cross tested with production lot numbers. We also tested MK262 and few other hand loads. We also tested environmental condition (uncontrolled) where the 416 performed better.



I'll let ya know if I see similar results out of my LWRC after 2500 rounds. I have yet clean the barrel of this particular rifle. Upon inspection, it just doesn't seem to need it. :-/;)

Actually the op rod system is what is filthy, not any of  the other operating components of the rifle. My BCG is still pretty clean. It's only been wiped down and relubed.

J.A.B. I was asking questions, although in a sarcastic manner. It just seems that  the whole "Carrier tilt" thing and barrel degradation seem to go unfounded unless I see actual results on paper from a reputable source claiming the issue/s


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## HOLLiS (Mar 28, 2011)

I would question the methodology.   A gas piston AR and a Gas impingement AR, where the only difference was the gas system would be valid.   Introducing a completely different firearm would introduce externalities.   All other things needs to be equal.


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## 8'Duece (Mar 28, 2011)

HOLLiS said:


> I would question the methodology. A gas piston AR and a Gas impingement AR, where the only difference was the gas system would be valid. Introducing a completely different firearm would introduce externalities. All other things needs to be equal.



Exactly my point. If the 416 sucks it does not equate to POF or LWRC sucking also. LWRC uses a unique bolt carrier and Advanced Combat bolt system that negates the carrier tilt issue in it's entirety. Look at their carrier design and their advanced bolt. There is no tilt nor lift from the front of the carrier so that issue is mute with LWRC.

Degradation of accuracy ? Jeff Gonzalez put an LWRC M6A2 through 12,000 rounds before the spring on the op rod broke. They replaced the spring and then proceeded to shoot up too 19,000 rounds. At that point they fired for precision. Sub MOA groups out of a barrel with 19,000 rounds ? It's his quote, not mine but I believe Jeff G. any day of the week.

As Hollis said, any piston system thrown into a standard AR platform probably sucks ass because piston rifles are not just another AR with an OP rod, at least from LWRCi.

Are your results anywhere in any Army findings with the 416 that we can see printed ??


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## pardus (Mar 28, 2011)

JAB, couple of questions, A, at what range was this testing done? And B, who was the retard that though an M4 with a 14.5" barrel could ever be a contender for a DM weapon? lol
Sounds like someone wanted an excuse to just use a lot of ammo (not that that is a bad thing!). :)

I really don't understand accuracy arguments when we are talking carbines that are desinged to shoot to 300m.

The M16 was a brilliant design, it is a design with some flaws that have needed addressing over the years (just like any weapons system).


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 28, 2011)

Your right S, I have no idea what the fuck I am talking about and I am simply making shit up to have something to post on ShadowSpear.com

I never said that the 416 or any other gas piston AR sucks, or that they are bad or anything of that sort. I only posted my opinions based on testing that I was privileged enough to take part in. My response to your original post is that you should have some sanctioned testing or data from such to imply that things are in fact myths.

As for printed reports of our tests, I am sure they are somewhere, I'll look around in my crap and see if I have it (that way you wont think I am a liar).


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 28, 2011)

pardus said:


> JAB, couple of questions, A, at what range was this testing done? And B, who was the retard that though an M4 with a 14.5" barrel could ever be a contender for a DM weapon? lol
> Sounds like someone wanted an excuse to just use a lot of ammo (not that that is a bad thing!). :)
> 
> I really don't understand accuracy arguments when we are talking carbines that are desinged to shoot to 300m.
> ...



Our unit was looking to establish data on current systems and the M4 was the great idea of some Maj/O4 who I won’t name. The 416’s were being tested by the Army at the time as a replacement for the current M16/M4’s, so we got a few to include into our tests (our tests were for the SDM Rifle). Testing was conducted at Camp Bullis, Camp Swift and Ft Hood during 2007 . ;)


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## HOLLiS (Mar 28, 2011)

JAB, was the test for a better rifle or a comparison of gas piston VS gas impingement?     If you ever need a round waster (shooter) I would be glad to volunteer.  That is about 99.9% of my shooting now anyways, killing dirt clods.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 28, 2011)

HOLLiS said:


> JAB, was the test for a better rifle or a comparison of gas piston VS gas impingement? If you ever need a round waster (shooter) I would be glad to volunteer. That is about 99.9% of my shooting now anyways, killing dirt clods.



No it was actually originally to gain data for an improved load for SDM to use in country. However it got twisted when the staffer’s got involved and they wanted to test anything they could get their hands on. We were only going to test the M16A4 and a few M16A4 Mod (match barrel and trigger), but we ended up with a few weapons systems to test as well. These evolved into what all can we test (reliability, accuracy, cleaning, ect) to give our instructors better data to present to soldiers they trained. We also tested optics, ELCAN, ACOG, AIMPoint, EOTech, and Mk4’s for durability, usability and trainability. Long story short it was a hell of a good time…

82nd, take a look at this video. Not that it means much, but again the info is out there.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v57gQ4-VEYw


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## HOLLiS (Mar 28, 2011)

Thanks for the information.    I am not sure if it is communication is part of the issue.  When I was in,  we took what they gave us.  Anything (with exceptions) that was not used in WWII was newer and greater than anything before.  Maybe there just was not all the choices back then.   Even in the civilian market.   We had Smith and Colts and the odd 1911.   I still think that with all the new stuff, it is the shooter that really matters.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 28, 2011)

I would agree that it is shooter choice as far as competition or civilian uses, but for the military I would say it is mission choice. You can still clear buildings with a M16, but if you had an option of using an M4 it would make things easier in tight hall ways and small rooms. However if you have an M4 and you are going to be working as a SDM where you will need to make a precision shot at say 500 meters, you would probably opt  for an M16 with better accuracy and ballistic results at that range. The same argument can be made for all weapon systems in the military, there is no need for a M2 or MK19 in a city you are not allowed to use heavy crew served weapons, if you’re fighting mountain to mountain you may wan’t a M107 or some 60mm Mortars, if you’re fighting in a jungle you might not want that M107…

Personally I think the HK416 ended up right where it needed to be, SOF. Conventional did not need the capability that HK416’s bring to the table (suppressers and high round counts before cleaning).


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## HOLLiS (Mar 28, 2011)

The neat thing for me  is, I am no longer in the loop.   Needs should dictate the choice and from my POV, give our people the best training possible.   That is where the shooters comment comes in.  Training, training and more training.  The more one sweats in training..... the more.........   Also as far as choice, keep the civies out of the loop.  A common thought among my peers was that in one day in the Bush they learned more than what they learned in the states.  I think we need the best soldiers trained and the best weapons choices available.  It is a combination of training and weapons systems.

If I was emperor, I would have a area glassed before I put boots on the ground.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 28, 2011)

I could not agree more with you on that, training should always be the primary focus and too many times it is pushed to the side for new cool kit.


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## swordsman (Mar 29, 2011)

my mr223 shoots after about 5000 rounds and 750 round uncleaned this group at 100meters ->



i cant agree the barrels getting bad or anything else after 5000 rounds, malfunctions are all operater based :-"!


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## pardus (Mar 29, 2011)

Umm, so after 5,000 rds why cant you dial in your rifle to be hitting bulls-eye then?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 29, 2011)

What ammo was that shot group shot with, and what barrel are you using? Are those 1 inch pasters on that target? I am very intrested in whatever info you can bring to the topic.


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## HOLLiS (Mar 29, 2011)

pardus said:


> Umm, so after 5,000 rds why cant you dial in your rifle to be hitting bulls-eye then?




Often. let say 1000 M shooters do not try to hit the bull, it is the group that is measured.   Hitting the bull will only degrade the sight picture.     Also some times, a person does not adjust for distance.  Let say I zero at 200M.   The I will shoot 300, 400, 500 and 600.  Using my mil dot scope.   It is close to the bull, within a kill zone but not necessary in the bull.

My guess, with that group, he did not sight it in for that range.   It is a good group, depending.  Range and target size pending.


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## Headshot (Mar 29, 2011)

Swordsman, get someone to photograph you behind the rifle in the same position that group was shot from.  Take a pic from each side, and the back.  Take a shot from the front with the rifle unloaded, bolt to the rear and safe so the cameraman doesn't take one by accident.  Post the pics on here when you get done.  Or even better, if you can get someone to video you would be great.  What ammo are you using?  At 100m, that group should all be on one pastie.


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## swordsman (Mar 29, 2011)

pardus said:


> Umm, so after 5,000 rds why cant you dial in your rifle to be hitting bulls-eye then?


ok, the poi is a little low because this group has been shot to test ab ebi-arms compensator, norm my bullets hit a bit higher i zero at 50meters.
the ebiarms brake is no good choice for ar15 to big and to heavy but quite nice for big bore guns like my short k98 in 8x57is or my tikka t3 in 30-06.
-> http://www.ebiarms.de/




JAB said:


> What ammo was that shot group shot with, and what barrel are you using? Are those 1 inch pasters on that target? I am very intrested in whatever info you can bring to the topic.


standart H&K mr223 barrel (twist 1-7), pmc bronze linie 55grn fmj-bt, the pasters ar Ø19mm, distance to terget 100m, bad light conditions.




Headshot said:


> Swordsman, get someone to photograph you behind the rifle in the same position that group was shot from.  Take a pic from each side, and the back.  Take a shot from the front with the rifle unloaded, bolt to the rear and safe so the cameraman doesn't take one by accident.  Post the pics on here when you get done.  Or even better, if you can get someone to video you would be great.  What ammo are you using?  At 100m, that group should all be on one pastie.



check out my youtube channel -> http://www.youtube.com/user/stubenwurm?feature=mhum
you can find some vids, taken at a ipsc rifle match in the netherlands last year.
i've shoot on 50meters with an aimpoint and prvi partizan 75grn ppu match hp-bt some month ago and all shoots are in the Ø19mm paster.
im using this rifle normal only with an aimpoint or the 1-4x22 meopta meostar k-dot so its hard to bild tight groups with cheap ammo and only the max magnification of 4 and the big center of the k-dot.
when i bought the rifle in 2008 i shoot remington premier 62grn hp with tight groups, now the ammo prices explodes and i prefer a cheaper round. ipsc rifle is no marksman contest, last year i used prvi partizan 55grn fmj-bt and was able to hit on a 300m stage only alphas an the 300m far targets and the performance of the prvi is shit compared to the pmc.


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## swordsman (Mar 29, 2011)

oh i forgot,
im waiting for 50grn brass solid rounds from impala for the deer (rehwild) hunting season starts on the first of may here in germany.
-> http://www.impalabullets.at/index_en.htm

im really exited how the bullets perform in my setup!


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## pardus (Mar 29, 2011)

swordsman said:


> ok, the poi is a little low because this group has been shot to test ab ebi-arms compensator, norm my bullets hit a bit higher i zero at 50meters.
> the ebiarms brake is no good choice for ar15 to big and to heavy but quite nice for big bore guns like my short k98 in 8x57is or my tikka t3 in 30-06.
> .



Roger.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 29, 2011)

swordsman said:


> standart H&K mr223 barrel (twist 1-7), pmc bronze linie 55grn fmj-bt, the pasters ar Ø19mm, distance to terget 100m, bad light conditions.



So let’s here you’re input on the thread, I would like to here your opinions on the AR 15 GP vs DI and more over what differences you have seen between the two systems.

I do find it somewhat odd that you’re shooting groups like that after 5k rounds down the tube and using PMC ammo. I am going to buy some PMC Bronze and run it through my DMR and compare it performance to M855, before I comment any further.

Nice rifle by the way.


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## swordsman (Mar 29, 2011)

JAB said:


> So let’s here you’re input on the thread, I would like to here your opinions on the AR 15 GP vs DI and more over what differences you have seen between the two systems.
> 
> I do find it somewhat odd that you’re shooting groups like that after 5k rounds down the tube and using PMC ammo. I am going to buy some PMC Bronze and run it through my DMR and compare it performance to M855, before I comment any further.
> 
> Nice rifle by the way.



thanks!

im happy that i have choosen the piston system, i've seen sometimes that di rifles have malfunction from the dirt in the system. two times ive seen a guy shooting an di rifle, first time (with an oberland arms) after finishing a stage the ro says "open action" but the guy couldnt open, the last round was stuck in chamber, after firing this round in the dirt with the ro's permission he could finish "show clear" command, now starts the cleaning process, open the gun, using chamber brush -> cleaning! this was in 2009.
last year a different shooter, the same problem with a sabre defence rifle in my squad.
this kind of malfunction i dont know from my piston rifle because it runs clean!
the only malfunction caused by the rifle was, after i added a ebrv2 extended bolt catch, the bolt carrier stays not back in the open looking position after the last round, the hole for the pin was 4/10 mm away from where the original h&k bolt catch was. i removed the ebrv2 and attached the magpul bad lever over the original h&k bolt catch and it works fine again.

do you think the groups are to bad or to good for more than 5000shots? im not good in shooting bondaged to a table, when im in a store in future i buy a box of good (62grn or more) ammo and try it.
i think the h&k 416 (not available here in germany!) has a chrome lined barrel, the civilian mr223 not. but the first series have a big space between chamber and first twist, some think that causes poor precision. the first pictures i've seen 2008 are made by the gun seller "waffen centrale" he gets 5 shoots in a Ø19mm paster using a g3 flash hider and a 3-12x scope at 100meters. you can find the pics in the german forum "waffen online" search for mr223, its the largest german gun forum.

here in germany is a gun smith who has build a new piston system. the piston is direct in front on the upper reciver and gets the gas from a normal gas tube. i've seen the rifles on the IWA this year, but the guy is crazy, they want to sell this rifles for 3000€ or more, the most expensive ar i ever heard of. and there has been no bullet through the barrel till now, some here think this piston system wont work propper.
heres the webside -> http://www.dar-germany.com/ you can join the "dar event" and shoot this new rifle, if it works till then.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 29, 2011)

swordsman said:


> thanks!
> 
> im happy that i have choosen the piston system, i've seen sometimes that di rifles have malfunction from the dirt in the system. two times ive seen a guy shooting an di rifle, first time (with an oberland arms) after finishing a stage the ro says "open action" but the guy couldnt open, the last round was stuck in chamber, after firing this round in the dirt with the ro's permission he could finish "show clear" command, now starts the cleaning process, open the gun, using chamber brush -> cleaning! this was in 2009.
> last year a different shooter, the same problem with a sabre defence rifle in my squad.
> ...



I would say that the gas piston accuracy issue that I saw could have been a reflection of the rifle/ammo match up we were using, but I also hear the same complaints of the accuracy degrading in other GP AR’s. So I tend to go with what I know, and like anything else my information could be very outdated at this point. I won’t proclaim to know it all, but I have had a good amount of experience with shooting, building and developing accuracy out of an AR platform.

I personally do not own a piston AR b/c I do not feel I have a need for one, my DI’s run just fine. That’s not to say I won’t ever own a piston AR, it would be very ideal in my mind if I was using a suppresser or if I ever ended up with a full auto lower.


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## HOLLiS (Mar 29, 2011)

For me as a civie, I doubt GP, GI or what ever would matter.   Just like forward assist,  as a civie if I have a failure to chamber,  I need to stop what I a doing and fix it.   Yet, for some one in the military/LE using a AR during a critical event where it fails to chamber, a forward assist is a necessity.

One aspect in the Corps,  a Marine will have a clean rifle.  When he is not doing anything else, a Marine will be cleaning his rifle.   Gunnys will insure that happens.  In that situation, having GP or GI won't matter.  (my understanding).

I know accuracy can very dependent on ammo.   Also how a rifle is fired has a effect.  I was sighting in a new scope and using hand loads.   The rifle clovered leaf each time (3) as I adjusted the scope to be on target.    A month later I went to the range with a friend.  This is why Murphy's Law kicks in when one brags.   I told how well the rifle group.   The difference, I did not bring hand loads, but some EU military surplus .308.    The rifle was all over the place, grouping in excess of 6 inches.    Also, I have been dealing with AR for some time (40+ years).   Rifle twist is important and it's relationship to bullet weight needs to be considered.

On suppressors, one thing many other piston type firearms have is a gas adjustment.   One can adjust the gas going to the piston.  I think this is a good idea for both GP and GI when using a suppressor.   It seem the US never really cared for that.   The Brits and Ruskies have used it (Bren gun and SVT40).    The M14 had a valve where one could turn of the gas to the piston (for rifle grenades).

Also it would be really great if suppressors were as available as they are in other countries and not a NFA item.

Barrel life,   Many barrels do not have a tremendous life, look at the .220 Swift.   Biggest effect on accuracy is not so much pitting/corrosion with in the barrel, it is the crown that is critical.  Cleaning from chamber is preferred, especially with a metallic cleaning rod.


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## swordsman (Mar 30, 2011)

_*I think those are excellent groups, but I have to admit I tend to  doubts. I have worked with the AR platform for roughly 15 years and have  yet to see that type of accuracy at that high of a round count without a  match grade barrel or the use of match grade ammo. Hints my questions  about the ammo and barrel. I do not doubt you or your word, just trying  to get all the data behind what you’re doing to achieve that grouping.  Personally I think you have one hell of a set up and if I were you I  would not change a thing until accuracy changes.*_

the groups from "waffen centrale" are much better then my ones, this time im banned from waffen online i'm back in there at april.06, then i try to pull pics and post them here.
 a friend of me was able to shoots 5 round in a Ø19mm paster with a standart sabre defence and sellier&bellot 69grn -> http://www.sellier-bellot.cz/rifle-ammunition-detail.php?ammunition=18&product=220  now his ammount is empty and he uses an knew charge and the groups are at 2,5 inch. a lot depends only on the ammo.
an other friend uses the mr308 with self loaded ammo, he shoots like a benchrester, i search for pics when im back from work.


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## swordsman (Apr 6, 2011)

ok, as promised here the fotos from a german gunsmith from the first series of h&ks mr223 .
all is shoot with factory ammo, no handloads / the rifle has been new, out of the box with different flash hiders and comps!

today my impala bullets arived, i think in the next 3-4 weeks i can post pics from the 50grn brass solids and in the mid of may pics from deer hit by the bullets.


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## swordsman (Apr 9, 2011)

here is the rifle mr308


and here the results.... (ammo is handloaded)


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## pardus (Apr 11, 2011)

Very nice.

Have you shot at longer ranges with these rifles? I'd like to see pics of longer range shots.

das war der stubenwurm = that was the office worm 

lol


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## Casimir (Apr 11, 2011)

I think I just popped a....nevermind


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## swordsman (May 23, 2011)

last friday shoot my first "bock" with my h&k MR223 and a 50grs impala brass solid bullet at ~70meters.
after the bullethit the deer walks 25meters and dies under some old oaks.


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## Pistol_Pete (May 23, 2011)

swordsman said:


> last friday shoot my first "bock" with my h&k MR223 and a 50grs impala brass solid bullet at ~70meters.
> after the bullethit the deer walks 25meters and dies under some old oaks.
> 
> View attachment 4258



Congratulations on your 1st buck.  The species tends to be smaller in Europe but I'm sure just as tasty.  I saw more wild boars in Germany than I ever did see deer.  Are wild boars still a big problem in some areas of Germany?

I'm curious - how much bureaucratic red tape do you have to go through to hunt in Germany nowadays, let alone own a firearm?


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## swordsman (May 23, 2011)

thanks!
the "rehwild" in germany weights 20-30kilo length 1m-1.4m. not really big!

the wildboars here are a big problem, but its selfmade (sometimes). the german agroculture rises corn in endless dimensons for producing energy thruogh biogas, the farmers are angry of the wildboars, but often they are the troublestarter, endless corn fields with missing space to shoot the boars for example.
the next problem is, night vision and silencers are not legal to own and use for hunting.
and a lot of german hunters think its not ethic to hunt with this usefull stuff.
in a semiautorifle the mag only is allowed to hold 2rounds while hunting(!).
you see, a lot problems are made from goverment and the traditionel hunters.
im an huntig outlaw with my tattos, long hair and a bad black (war)rifle!


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## Ranger Psych (May 23, 2011)

2 rounds in your magazine while hunting... sounds like you get some good magazine change training ;)

Especially if you're hunting boar.


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## swordsman (May 23, 2011)

Ranger Psych said:


> 2 rounds in your magazine while hunting... sounds like you get some good magazine change training ;)
> 
> Especially if you're hunting boar.



hunting wildboar starts with the .222 rem its only allowed for boars who are not larger then 15kg. if you want hunt larger wildboars you ned a E100 of more then 2000joule and a 6,5mm or larger bullet.

the german hunting laws splits between "nieder"wild (foxes, racoon, rehwild...) and "hoch"wild (wildboar, rotwild, damwild) its a definition of animals form medieval times.

niederwild (lower wild animals) could be hunted from normal persons.
hochwild (higher wild animals) could only be hunted by the king and his lords, earls, knights...

that makes the differences in choosing caliber and bullet
low-> E100 = min 1000joule
high-> E100 = min 2000joule and bulletØ min 6,5mm

my friend use his MR308 for hunting boars in the field with great succses. he uses an schmidt & bender 2,5-10x56 on top a aimpoitn micro t1 and an head mounted night vision (this is the only legal way to hunt with night vision, its forbidden to mount on your weapon, but allowed when you mount to your head! germany gun laws suck!!!)

oh i forgot, the 2 round ragulation is only for semiautorifles, bolt operated rifles can hold unlimited rounds in the mag!


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