# The First Step...



## ReubenB (Jan 23, 2014)

First off I would like to thank Shadow Spear for accepting me into this community and looking forward to all the knowledge I will attain here.

Today I made the first step in a long arduous process of leaving the Army as an Officer (1LT) in OCT 13 and now returning as an enlisted member (E5) through the 18X Program. I have wanted this for a long time even before I graduated high school. I will be looking to this community for support, guidance and mentorship throughout the process. I appreciate any suggestions, comments and recommendations. 

Thank you all!


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## swimr235 (Jan 23, 2014)

I am unfamiliar with Army structure when it comes to SF so my first question would be why leave as an O to go E? Are you not able to go into SFAS as an O?


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## Karoshi (Jan 23, 2014)

Reuben, are you able to get commissioned again in the future if you decide to pursue 18A later in life?


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 23, 2014)

I will be very interested to see the responses to this one.  (not a "shot" just very curious to hear what those in the know have to say about your plan of going from an officer to enlisted)


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## TLDR20 (Jan 23, 2014)

Ooh-Rah1069 said:


> I will be very interested to see the responses to this one.  (not a "shot" just very curious to hear what those in the know have to say about your plan of going from an officer to enlisted)



While I was a Q course instructor we had two prior SF officers going through becoming 18D's. We also had former Marine infantry O's. I have no issues with it.


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## AWP (Jan 23, 2014)

1. You can resign your commission or go into the IRR/ ING. I know guys who have done both with their bars. Some do it to go active as an enlisted, some to do it in the Guard/ Reserve as enlisted, some even change branches altogether. It is not that unusual.
2. As many here will testify, O time on an ODA is very, very finite. NCO time is almost forever.
3. O to NCO and then back to O? Possible, but unlikely. Maybe in the Guard, but on AD? I'd be surprised. Unless something's changed the AD side only opens SFAS to Officers in certain year groups (the year in which you commission). One possible reason to go enlisted is because you missed your YG window. Therefore you are unlikely to go back as an O, but maybe the Guard has a magical waiver.
4. Some folks realize that being an O "ain't what it's cracked up to be." Personally, I was happier as an NCO and looking at how the Support side changed post-9/11, I'd have gone Warrant, but that's water under the bridge. Bottom line, being an O can royally suck for some people in some environments. Those people still want to serve and the last time I checked, we'll always need good NCO's.


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## Brill (Jan 23, 2014)

Not SF however, there are three former O-3s in our MI section that resigned and put on SGT stripes. All are amazing managers and can navigate through the Guard admin nightmare with ease.  I can only assume similar things could be said of the AD side.

Having seen what MI and SF branched officers do in war zones and garrison, you're making the right choice.  In a TIC, the TL was always on the radio while we were maneuvering...or falling down in an open sewer. 

Wait, you have 4 years of service and still an O-2??????


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## ReubenB (Jan 23, 2014)

> I am unfamiliar with Army structure when it comes to SF so my first question would be why leave as an O to go E? Are you not able to go into SFAS as an O?



I tried numerous times as an officer. No luck. I was not combat arms branch and despite many request was unable to attend Ranger school to better my selection for SFAS. To specifically answer your question, yes you are able to attend. Getting there is another story.



> Reuben, are you able to get commissioned again in the future if you decide to pursue 18A later in life?



Good question! I actually have no clue and currently I plan to move to Warrant after some team time. Lord willing. 



> I will be very interested to see the responses to this one. (not a "shot" just very curious to hear what those in the know have to say about your plan of going from an officer to enlisted)



My father, a LTC, is driving 3 hours to speak with me in person about it. Should be an interesting conservation. 



> I have no issues with it.



I will take that as a blessing to move forward. Thank you. 



> You can resign your commission or go into the IRR/ ING. I know guys who have done both with their bars. Some do it to go active as an enlisted, some to do it in the Guard/ Reserve as enlisted, some even change branches altogether. It is not that unusual.



That's the plan. Hopefully it works. 



> Some folks realize that being an O "ain't what it's cracked up to be."



This. 



> Having seen what MI and SF branched officers do in war zones and garrison, you're making the right choice



Thank you. My deployment to Iraq was a lesson in, "How to Make as Many PPTs as Possible". 



> Wait, you have 4 years of service and still an O-2??????



Midway through my short lived "career" HRC decided there were too many CPTs in the Army so they stretched the time in grade before promotion for 1lT. Additionally they sent out MILPERS stating they were going to only promote 95% of 1LTs to CPT. When all the dust settled they only promoted 90% of 1LTs even axing some prior service E6s that had made the switch. I didin't get promoted my wife thankfully was promoted to CPT (she's headed to 10th GSB).


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## Totentanz (Jan 23, 2014)

Which year group were you in?


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## ReubenB (Jan 23, 2014)

> Which year group were you in?



2009


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 23, 2014)

@ReubenB , what I would not give to be a fly on the wall when the good Colonel sits you down to discuss 'options'.  

For what it worth, I respect the hell out of your decision.  I want to be careful not to overstep my non SOF bounds here, but if going through the process of decommissioning (?) yourself so that you have an opportunity to chase your dreams does not reflect your commitment, I don't know what does.


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## ReubenB (Jan 23, 2014)

@Ooh-Rah1069 

It was recommended that I record this conversation for evidence of my untimely demise. Also thank you for your support in this endeavour.


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## DA SWO (Jan 23, 2014)

ReubenB said:


> I tried numerous times as an officer. No luck. I was not combat arms branch and despite many request was unable to attend Ranger school to better my selection for SFAS. To specifically answer your question, yes you are able to attend. Getting there is another story.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I assume you are punching out before the second pass over?
Did the powers to be know you were resigning to go 18X?


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## ReubenB (Jan 24, 2014)

@SOWT 



> I assume you are punching out before the second pass over?



Yup. Got going when the going was good.



> Did the powers to be know you were resigning to go 18X?



If you mean Big Army, no. I made no disclosures to the Army that I was getting out to come back in as a 18x. Now if you mean LTC Dad, no also. He thought I was planning on taking a corporate job and start the process of climbing it's ladder. He also wasn't too hard on me for wanting to re-joining as enlisted. He just said, "You're a grown ass man do whatever you want but I think you're taking a step backwards".


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## ReubenB (Jan 30, 2014)

SITREP:

Thankfully I had a copy of TS/SCI SF-86 so the recruiter told me to disregard the watered down one they give newcomers
Had to dig up my ASVAB scores from OCT 2002. I was a HS JR. Surprised I did so well. Also learned if you join your scores are locked in. That is of course you decide to retake the ASVAB to get the ole GT Score up to snuff.
Requested copies of my official college transcripts be sent to the recruiter. Because me being an officer wasn't proof enough and considering I have to provide a letter indicating completion of  ROTC. 
Requested a copy of my Eagle Scout credentials. Trying to put the best foot forward to MEPS. 
Started working on an applicant statement for MEPS. I was told by the recruiter it couldn't hurt to beg/persuade them to give me an 18X contract so fingers to the keyboard. 
Had to dig up my OG birth certificate. The one the Army had all these years _now_ isn't good enough. Funny how that works.
Writing my resignation letter to HRC time now. 
Also if anyone can confirm or deny this possibility I would appreciate it: Is it possible to enlist as an E-5 18X? I am mentally and financially preparing to enter the Army again as an E-4 but if I can come back as SGT I wouldn't turn it down.

Although sharing with the E4 Mafia I'm married to CPT may have it's perks. 

Thank you all for being a part of this journey with me and your support. If there's any suggestions, comments, ideas, recommendations, whatever. I'd love to read them.


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## pardus (Jan 31, 2014)

ReubenB said:


> Also if anyone can confirm or deny this possibility I would appreciate it: Is it possible to enlist as an E-5 18X? I am mentally and financially preparing to enter the Army again as an E-4 but if I can come back as SGT I wouldn't turn it down.
> 
> Although sharing with the E4 Mafia I'm married to CPT may have it's perks.
> 
> Thank you all for being a part of this journey with me and your support. If there's any suggestions, comments, ideas, recommendations, whatever. I'd love to read them.



Can you go Enlisted with an O wife?

I'm curious about what you are prepared to accept. Are you mentally and financially prepared to enter the SF program as an E1?


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## ReubenB (Jan 31, 2014)

> Can you go Enlisted with an O wife?



I have seen no regulation that states I can not. The recruiters said I only needed to provide proof of marriage (a marriage certificate) so it could be verified in DEERs



> I'm curious about what you are prepared to accept. Are you mentally and financially prepared to enter the SF program as an E1?



Without hesitation


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## Totentanz (Jan 31, 2014)

pardus said:


> Can you go Enlisted with an O wife?



Unless the reg has changed recently, yes.  The relationship has to have existed prior to that situation occurring.  E.g. if two enlisted personnel are married and one earns a commission, an officer's spouse enlists, the spouse of an enlisted member earns a commission, etc.  I saw several cases of the first example when I went through OCS.

Starting a new relationship that crosses that line is a no-go.


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## DA SWO (Jan 31, 2014)

ReubenB said:


> SITREP:
> 
> Thankfully I had a copy of TS/SCI SF-86 so the recruiter told me to disregard the watered down one they give newcomers
> Had to dig up my ASVAB scores from OCT 2002. I was a HS JR. Surprised I did so well. Also learned if you join your scores are locked in. That is of course you decide to retake the ASVAB to get the ole GT Score up to snuff.
> ...



I wouldn't let a soul know what rank my wife was until I was finished with all my training.


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## pardus (Jan 31, 2014)

ReubenB said:


> Without hesitation



Good


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## Brill (Jan 31, 2014)

ReubenB said:


> SITREP:
> 
> Thankfully I had a copy of TS/SCI SF-86 so the recruiter told me to disregard the watered down one they give newcomers
> Had to dig up my ASVAB scores from OCT 2002. I was a HS JR. Surprised I did so well. Also learned if you join your scores are locked in. That is of course you decide to retake the ASVAB to get the ole GT Score up to snuff.
> ...



Dude, I'm so confused.

I went USN to ARNG and all of my stuff was already on file. I had to give the recruiter paperwork for deers and that's it. Clearance and all my military schools transferred over.

Eagle Scout? ROTC paperwork? Man, I'd tell that guy to piss off and find another recruiter at a different station.


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## ReubenB (Jan 31, 2014)

> I wouldn't let a soul know what rank my wife was until I was finished with all my training.



I fully intend not to say a word. Also part of the reason the reason I had my spouse maintain her maiden name & name tapes.



> Dude, I'm so confused.



You and me both. I can't blame the recruiter though. He wasn't my S1 or the civilian doing my paperwork when I was transitioning out of the Army. All he does is access whatever the system has my information in it. Thankfully I kept a copy or was able to get a hold of everything for myself.


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## Ranger Psych (Feb 1, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> 1. You can resign your commission or go into the IRR/ ING. I know guys who have done both with their bars. Some do it to go active as an enlisted, some to do it in the Guard/ Reserve as enlisted, some even change branches altogether. It is not that unusual.
> 2. As many here will testify, O time on an ODA is very, very finite. NCO time is almost forever.
> 3. O to NCO and then back to O? Possible, but unlikely. Maybe in the Guard, but on AD? I'd be surprised. Unless something's changed the AD side only opens SFAS to Officers in certain year groups (the year in which you commission). One possible reason to go enlisted is because you missed your YG window. Therefore you are unlikely to go back as an O, but maybe the Guard has a magical waiver.
> 4. Some folks realize that being an O "ain't what it's cracked up to be." Personally, I was happier as an NCO and looking at how the Support side changed post-9/11, I'd have gone Warrant, but that's water under the bridge. Bottom line, being an O can royally suck for some people in some environments. Those people still want to serve and the last time I checked, we'll always need good NCO's.



I know one specific buddy of mine who...

was a 1LT in the guard, resigned comm
came to Batt, progressed to Sergeant
SFAS, AD Team time 
recomissioned
Reg army O time, now an ODA CDR as an ossifer.

So, it can be done, just takes interesting circumstances and specific personal desires to flip-flop in that manner to do so.

of course, I also had a squad leader in Batt who was AD and resigned his comission before pinning Major to come to Batt as an NCO.


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## ReubenB (Feb 3, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> I know one specific buddy of mine who...
> 
> was a 1LT in the guard, resigned comm
> came to Batt, progressed to Sergeant
> ...


 
Now that is truly impressive all jokes aside.


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## Ranger Psych (Feb 3, 2014)

Don't know many jokes to be made about it, the individual in question is one of the most tactically brilliant individuals I've ever met and if he didn't like what he was doing, he went to do something else. Part of why he popped smoke on his first commission. I might actually have it wrong and that he bounced from/to officer ranks 3 times... System won't work for you, work the system. Can't blame him either, given the HRC goat rodeo he was having to deal with.


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## ReubenB (Feb 3, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> System won't work for you, work the system.


 
Sound advice, thank you.


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## Brill (Feb 4, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> If he didn't like what he was doing, he went to do something else.



Lif is too short for anything else!


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## ReubenB (Feb 19, 2014)

Today I finished turning in all paperwork to the local recruiting station. I'm convinced I didn't have to submit this much paperwork for my ROTC scholarship but I can't complain it is done. The E7 at the recruiting station mentioned to me his commander could not understand why I would want to do something like this. A few moments ago that same CO called me to ask some questions regarding my military history. He didn't ask me why but said he was going to support me getting what I want, 18x. He did mention that my packet will probably go before the next commander in the chain. Hopefully he has some positive history with SOF. 

Now I wait to hear back from USAREC in regards to my rank determination. This is probably the #1 show stopper. If USAREC decides E5 over E4 my journey to 18x at least will come to a stop. I should know the outcome in the week.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 19, 2014)

ReubenB said:


> <SNIP>
> Now I wait to hear back from USAREC in regards to my rank determination. This is probably the #1 show stopper. If USAREC decides E5 over E4 my journey to 18x at least will come to a stop. I should know the outcome in the week.



May I ask about this?  on page-1 of this thread you told @pardus you would drop to E1 if it meant getting a chance for 18x, ("without hesitation" was your response)  Why the change?  Trust me, if I didn't ask, someone else would have.


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## ReubenB (Feb 19, 2014)

I would. But unfortunately the choice is not up to me. Due to the new Business Rules of the Army prior service members can not change rank for the purpose of re-enlistment. Which is basically what I am asking them to do for me.

Determine my grade from O to E to be that of E4. I most cases of O to E, the O becomes an E5 or E6. I am asking E4 specifically to enlist as an 18x.

Link to USAREC MESSAGE  14-022


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## ReubenB (Feb 26, 2014)

Quick SITREP to those following my long walk:


The recruiter I'm working with sent in my last SF physical. Apparently recruiting command was thinking I needed to take another physical at MEPs. Recruiter disagreed and scanned in my last SF physical. 
Because of the delay on the physica (a waiver was submitted as well justifying that I did not need another physical) l I haven't received my grade determination. Yet.
I'm anticipating E5 as is the recruiter. But according to the recruiter despite an E5 grade determination I can still go to MEPS and try for 18x.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 26, 2014)

-going from O to E is unusual but not unheard-of.  Going way-way back my grandfather got hit by the RIF after WWII and went from captain to master sergeant... in the same unit.  More recently, I was in a collector school with a guy who had been an officer in Viet Nam, got hit by the RIF and went enlisted SF, and eventually became a warrant.  One of the MI captains with me in 5th Group back in the day resigned his commission so he could go fly helicopters as a warrant.

-the "married to an officer" thing is a complete non-issue from a regulation standpoint. It is going to raise a lot of eyebrows, though.  Haters gonna hate...


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## ReubenB (Feb 26, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> resigned his commission so he could go fly helicopters as a warrant.



I actually discussed this option with the recruiter if the 18x path doesn't work out. 



Marauder06 said:


> Haters gonna hate...



Ain't it the truth.


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## tweeder (Feb 27, 2014)

When I was in OSUT, we had a prior USMC O-3 who was a SPC/ 18X so it can be done.

Regarding equivalency, typically OCS is placed in par with WLC. A student in my CLT class had also attended USMC OCS (chose not to commission)  and that's what HRC told him. 

Best of luck to you.


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## yarles87 (Feb 28, 2014)

ReubenB, I'll be taking a similar route as you, albeit from USMC Infantry O to NG SF enlisted. I've contacted  two state NG SF units who have essentially said it's a fairly easy process (the admin side of it at least) to resign the commission, enlist, and then SFAS. 

To be honest, I do it with a heavy heart because I love Marines. I got the opportunity to lead those guys in combat and go through the ups and downs of it. My chain of command recommended me for MARSOC, but like previously stated the officer time with a team is very limited, and the career path just isn't appealing to me. Being a company XO makes me realize I never want to be in a staff position again. I haven't dropped this one on to higher yet, but I'm sure I'll receive a heavy amount of raised eyebrows and skepticism.

Best of luck to you Reuben, hope you get what you're working towards!


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## 1345 (Mar 15, 2014)

What an interesting read. Been off the forum for a while. Good luck with everything. I had a prior service O come in as an E5 in my sopc class. Was selected as a delta at sfas, haven't seen or heard from him since.


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## Etype (Mar 23, 2014)

pardus said:


> Can you go Enlisted with an O wife?



I know a couple dudes with o wives- in fact, they are married to pilots.


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