# Jamal Khashoggi thread (murdered journalist)



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 12, 2018)

Kinda surprised this topic has not been discussed yet.  Terrible story, Trump has been making ‘nice’ with the Saudis because he sees them as the key to peace between Israel and Palestine; will be interesting to see how “we” handle this.  

Audio 'proves Saudi Arabia critic WAS killed at consulate in Istanbul by 15-man assassination squad' | Daily Mail Online

The government in Turkey claims to have evidence that US-based journalist Jamal Khashoggi was murdered at the Saudi Arabia embassy after the critic of the country went to get a visa for his upcoming wedding.

He was captured on CCTV footage entering the building in Istanbul October 2 and a source has told The Washington Post he was killed and then dismembered by members of security.

'The voice recording from inside the embassy lays out what happened to Jamal after he entered,' the insider told the newspaper that Khashoggi, 59, worked for.

'You can hear his voice and the voices of men speaking Arabic … You can hear how he was interrogated, tortured and then murdered.'


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## Gunz (Oct 12, 2018)

Not surprising considering he's been pissing off the Saudis for years...and more recently the defense minister, bin Salman. Not a man to fuck with, apparently.


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## Kraut783 (Oct 12, 2018)

I know congress is all up in arms....but, not sure where we have standing...Consulate in Turkey is Saudi soil, offense occurred there. Turkey government can't really do anything....

We can try to use our associating with Saudi....but when push comes to shove, not much we can do.


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## SpitfireV (Oct 12, 2018)

I think they were trying to lift him and get him back to Saudi. Otherwise why lure him to the consulate and why use so many people for a killing on controlled grounds.


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## Kraut783 (Oct 12, 2018)

Possibly, knowing that he would never travel to Saudi.....closest thing would be an embassy or consulate....inviolate treaties involved. If you kill him in the open...that host country can investigate the offense with the weight of the government on their side. Right now the Turks can't even enter the consulate.


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## Gunz (Oct 12, 2018)

If you kill him in the open and get caught it's like Mossad's Lillehammer fiasco in '73, after the Munich Olympic massacre. Six of them went to prison IIRC.



SpitfireV said:


> I think they were trying to lift him and get him back to Saudi. Otherwise why lure him to the consulate and why use so many people for a killing on controlled grounds.



Either something went wrong or they had a contingency plan to kill or kidnap him in the event he didn't show up at the Embassy. In that case, they would've needed the extra manpower...diversions, lookouts, wheelmen, muscle, all that.

Whatever the bait, it must've been pretty compelling to get him to walk in on his own.


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## MikeDelta (Oct 12, 2018)

Well, if the Saudis did tourture and kill him, perhaps the 15 man ‘team’ (and I say team loosely) were people who had a personal interest in seeing him suffer and die? The article did mention that it was suspected that Khashoggi was “lured” in. The Saudis could have hit him anywhere, if they just wanted him dead; so to lure him in for a secret unbridled torture session sounds plausible. This is just speculation on my part of course;  I haven’t even been in that country for over 20 years. However, it is speculation based on deductive reasoning derived from cultural and behavioral observations.

But again, this is a cursory speculation. I’m interested in hearing more opinions of some of the members who have dealt with situations similar to this and how these actions precipitate.


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## AWP (Oct 12, 2018)

You can torture a guy for various personal reasons, but I'll bet he had sources and info the Saudis wanted.

With that said, this is a heinous murder, but not unexpected. The Saudis are becoming less radical, but the mentality remains. I'm not shocked, but I'm also not excusing their behavior. A Middle Eastern country without human rights violations is...France? Germany?


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## MikeDelta (Oct 12, 2018)

AWP said:


> I'll bet he had sources and info the Saudis wanted. The Saudis are becoming less radical, but the mentality remains.



Agreed, sources and info. that could be incriminating for certain persons. Certain persons which may have been in the same room when Khashoogi was executed. And the way this went down, as described, is a reflection of this mentality you mention. Not shocked either, but it's an ugly brazen move that raises my brow even more.


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Oct 12, 2018)

Could of got hold of members of his family and got him to come in on his own accord. Maybe he would've squeeled if not for a veiled threat of someone he loves getting an acid bath or dragged out to the dessert.

Saudis doing Arab things, in Turkey of all places. Who would've thought?


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## Marauder06 (Oct 13, 2018)

I don't know what's more interesting to me... the fact that Saudis are whacking their own people in an overseas embassy, or the Turks just flat admitted that they tapped the shit out of the Saudi embassy and straight dropped a dime about it to the world.


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## Rapid (Oct 13, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> I don't know what's more interesting to me... the fact that Saudis are whacking their own people in an overseas embassy, or the Turks just flat admitted that they tapped the shit out of the Saudi embassy and straight dropped a dime about it to the world.



Needless to say, Turkey has an angle on this and isn't doing it out of the kindness of its non-existent heart.


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## Totentanz (Oct 13, 2018)

After two years of utilizing a coup attempt as an excuse to repress the press for more than two years after the fact, Turkey wants to play the role of the savior of free speech (replete with the maximal indignation Turkey is so well-known for)?  Eat a flaming bag of dicks...

Turkey vs. Saudi flinging shit at each other regarding population repression is a topic on which I cannot roll my eyes hard enough.

Between this and the release of Brunson I wonder about their motives. Turkey never misses an opportunity to shit in the punch bowl. 



Rapid said:


> Needless to say, Turkey has an angle on this and isn't doing it out of the kindness of its non-existent heart.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 13, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> <snip> ....the Turks just flat admitted that they tapped the shit out of the Saudi embassy and straight dropped a dime about it to the world.



And here is where they try to put a cap on that....
Missing Saudi journalist 'recorded his own death on his Apple Watch' | Daily Mail Online

_Missing Saudi journalist Jamal Khashoggi may have recorded his own death on his Apple Watch, it has been claimed.

He turned on the recording function on the device before walking into the Saudi Arabia embassy in Istanbul on October 2, according to Turkish newspaper Sabah.

Then his 'interrogation, torture and killing were audio recorded and sent to both his phone and to iCloud', the newspaper report._

*Here is where it’s gets a bit hinky:* _His assailants tried to hack into the watch with multiple failed password attempts before using his fingerprint to unlock it and delete some files, the report claims._

But.... 

1). The Apple Watch uses a 4 digit passcode to open the watch not fingerprint 
2). I wear an Apple Watch, to set it up to record a conversation and then auto-send to the cloud?  Ummm...

If anything he may have turned on the recording app on his iPhone and then uploaded - but, I’m not burning any of this.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 13, 2018)

So...Turkish Intel had him eh?


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## AWP (Oct 13, 2018)

Totentanz said:


> Eat a flaming bag of dicks...



You need extra points for this phrase. I call upon the members to provides likes for an underutilized bit of word savagery.

Also: Where dafuq have you been?


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## Gunz (Oct 13, 2018)

And the Saudis. Now if that ain't a bunch of duplicitous motherfuckers. Let's give women the right to drive a fucking car while we torture the shit out of these human rights activists. How long have the Saudis been playing six different versions of The Game to preserve their precious monarchy? They bang their heads on the mat for Allah then hit the nightclubs and fleshpots in Soho. Their foreign and domestic policies are just as contradictory.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 13, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> And here is where they try to put a cap on that....
> Missing Saudi journalist 'recorded his own death on his Apple Watch' | Daily Mail Online
> ...



This is very interesting.  And it makes this whole situation make more sense.




ThunderHorse said:


> So...Turkish Intel had him eh?




That's kind of what I'm thinking.  It would explain a lot, like how they knew when he was going into the embassy, and how they got a recording of his purported death, and why they're so willing to come out with it.


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## racing_kitty (Oct 13, 2018)

An interesting, if rather lengthy read from The Spectator, if one has the time. I had a hunch that certain things didn’t add up (because fuck American media), but not enough knowledge to figure out where that hunch came from. While there is still quite a bit that I don’t know, I at least understand that my hunch was right.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 13, 2018)

racing_kitty said:


> An interesting, if rather lengthy read from The Spectator, if one has the time. I had a hunch that certain things didn’t add up (because fuck American media), but not enough knowledge to figure out where that hunch came from. While there is still quite a bit that I don’t know, I at least understand that my hunch was right.



WOW.  What an interesting article.


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## Totentanz (Oct 13, 2018)

AWP said:


> Also: Where dafuq have you been?



I decided to reduce my online interactions about a year ago, and took a break.  Doing so reduced a fair bit of stress in my life.  I'll be around - not as active as I once was, but more so than the last year has been.

@racing_kitty thanks for finding and posting that.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 14, 2018)

Interesting article, for sure. Paints a much broader picture about the guy.


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## 757 (Oct 15, 2018)

racing_kitty said:


> An interesting, if rather lengthy read from The Spectator, if one has the time. I had a hunch that certain things didn’t add up (because fuck American media), but not enough knowledge to figure out where that hunch came from. While there is still quite a bit that I don’t know, I at least understand that my hunch was right.



Great article. I honestly had no idea who that guy was, by name at least, prior to his death and was surprised to learn about his ties to the Muslim Brotherhood.


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## DC (Oct 15, 2018)

Answered all my questions. 🤙🏽 @racing_kitty


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## Kraut783 (Oct 15, 2018)

Surprise surprise surprise

*Saudis preparing to admit Jamal Khashoggi died during interrogation, sources say*

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/15/middleeast/saudi-khashoggi-death-turkey/index.html


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## racing_kitty (Oct 15, 2018)

Can’t say that I’m surprised, nor heartbroken. 

Somewhat related, I wonder if Kamal Ataturk were to do today what he did a century ago, would he get the same media treatment as the Saudi crown prince today? On the surface, their overall situations seem similar. I’d have to do some digging before making more comparisons.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 19, 2018)

Yep, this is the look of a dude who started a fist fight....

Puh-leeze


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## Box (Oct 20, 2018)

Maybe it was a fistfight with Edward Scissorhands...

We need a few more good Tweets before the truth comes out


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## MikeDelta (Oct 20, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Yep, this is the look of a dude who started a fist fight....
> 
> Puh-leeze
> 
> View attachment 24559



Brawler he was...Ugh...more political cover up bullshit. Can’t wait till Bretton Woods era politics are behind us


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## MikeDelta (Oct 20, 2018)

Maybe he was a sacrificial lamb, gave up for Intel? Gah, who knows


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## Gunz (Oct 20, 2018)

Saudi dissident and Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.


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## MikeDelta (Oct 20, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Saudi dissident and Black Belt in Brazilian Jiu Jitsu.



What year did he buy his black belt? And he doesn’t look like he had been to class in a while


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## Florida173 (Oct 20, 2018)

Does Khashoggi's ties to MB and OBL matter? In any other common sense reality, would we care? "Journalist" seems like just an easy excuse to hate on Saudi Arabia.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 20, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> How I would customize it:  throw out the beer, the champagne, and OJ, triple the bourbon.  NO ice.



No ice, fuckin savage...


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## amlove21 (Oct 20, 2018)

Makes sense. I routinely dismember and then liquify people that lose to me in fist fights.

Seriously though, when is the administration going to do something about this? It’s all fun and games, I get it- the US resident nerd fake black belt journalist with a weird history died and ha ha, Turkey told us everything. The king said they didn’t do it, and just like Judge Kavanaugh, one should be innocent until proven guilty (that’s not rhetoric, that’s a paraphrase of a quote from the president comparing the two, which I am sure Judge Kavanaugh had to be pumped about).

How much further are we gonna set this bar? For f*#^s sake...


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## Florida173 (Oct 20, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Makes sense. I routinely dismember and then liquify people that lose to me in fist fights.
> 
> Seriously though, when is the administration going to do something about this? It’s all fun and games, I get it- the US resident nerd fake black belt journalist with a weird history died and ha ha, Turkey told us everything. The king said they didn’t do it, and just like Judge Kavanaugh, one should be innocent until proven guilty (that’s not rhetoric, that’s a paraphrase of a quote from the president comparing the two, which I am sure Judge Kavanaugh had to be pumped about).
> 
> How much further are we gonna set this bar? For f*#^s sake...



Outside a strongly worded letter, I think we should ignore this. Way worse things are going on in Saudi Arabia. Is this the thing that should make people care. They're still a strategic ally against other states.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 20, 2018)

Not sure why we or our Media give a fuck about some member of the Muslim Brotherhood who'd been a loyalist getting Mercd.  Not our problem.


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## DasBoot (Oct 20, 2018)

The Saudis have to be about the worst people on the planet. All the reasons we went into Iraq could have all been applied to the Saudis. They are the reason for Islam getting as fucked up as it is- Wahhabism has done more damage to the world than any other ideology, and they are the pitch men for that shit. I also think it’s funny how we have always turned a blind eye to their own pursuit of nuclear weapons...


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## Cookie_ (Oct 20, 2018)

Florida173 said:


> Does Khashoggi's ties to MB and OBL matter? In any other common sense reality, would we care? "Journalist" seems like just an easy excuse to hate on Saudi Arabia.



I don't think his ties to OBL really matter; he was connected to him up until the mid-90s, basically the same amount of time we were.

The MB thing gets tricky. Religion is pretty intrinsically connected to everything in the Arab world; we pretty much have to accept the fact that, if that part of the world wants a Democratic process, it's going to involve groups like MB. I don't like it, but I don't see other options.



Florida173 said:


> Outside a strongly worded letter, I think we should ignore this. Way worse things are going on in Saudi Arabia. Is this the thing that should make people care. They're still a strategic ally against other states.



That's the rub. The Saudi's are slightly better allies than Paki, so we pretty much gotta let this slide with a slap on the wrist.


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## Devildoc (Oct 20, 2018)

Cookie_101st said:


> I don't think his ties to OBL really matter; he was connected to him up until the mid-90s, basically the same amount of time we were.
> 
> The MB thing gets tricky. Religion is pretty intrinsically connected to everything in the Arab world; we pretty much have to accept the fact that, if that part of the world wants a Democratic process, it's going to involve groups like MB. I don't like it, but I don't see other options.
> 
> ...



Well, there's religion, and there's the Muslim Brotherhood. Several countries, including Saudi Arabia, consider the Muslim Brotherhood to be a terrorist organization. So they might be the loudest in the most violent, but who knows how much influence they actually have with Saudi Arabia?

I think the only reason that any American media is giving this a second thought is to try to use it in context of what Trump is or is not doing. Otherwise, I really don't think they care.

Like them or lump them, Saudi Arabia is a stable force in the region, and they can keep some of the more belligerent neighbors at bay.  Not to mention their mutually beneficial economic ties to the US.  

I don't know much about that guy that got turned into a human jigsaw puzzle, but it sounded like if anyone was deserving of a dirt nap, he was. Honestly I'm really not getting worked up about that.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 20, 2018)

Muslim Brotherhood, Wahhabists...two sides of the same coin.

Also...I find it real easy that Biden is taking shots at Trump over this when the Obama administration turned man a blind eye to Saudi shit during their time.


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## SpitfireV (Oct 20, 2018)

Florida173 said:


> Does Khashoggi's ties to MB and OBL matter? In any other common sense reality, would we care? "Journalist" seems like just an easy excuse to hate on Saudi Arabia.



What are the OBL links? I've read about his MB ones but not OBL.


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## Devildoc (Oct 20, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> What are the OBL links? I've read about his MB ones but not OBL.



It depends on which source you want to go to. At the very minimum he interviewed Bin Laden in Afghanistan in the 80s, some sources say that he was sympathetic to Bin Laden and supported his campaign against the West, specifically the US.


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## SpitfireV (Oct 20, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> It depends on which source you want to go to. At the very minimum he interviewed Bin Laden in Afghanistan in the 80s, some sources say that he was sympathetic to Bin Laden and supported his campaign against the West, specifically the US.



Hmm roger. Cheers.


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## Cookie_ (Oct 20, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Well, there's religion, and there's the Muslim Brotherhood. Several countries, including Saudi Arabia, consider the Muslim Brotherhood to be a terrorist organization. So they might be the loudest in the most violent, but who knows how much influence they actually have with Saudi Arabia?
> 
> I think the only reason that any American media is giving this a second thought is to try to use it in context of what Trump is or is not doing. Otherwise, I really don't think they care.
> 
> ...



The Muslim Brotherhood was banned in Syria, Russia, Bahrain, UAE, and Saudi Arabia, as best I can tell.  As the Muslim Brotherhood seemed had a decent sized hand in the Arab Spring, it only makes sense that a number of Kingdoms in the area would designate them as a terrorist organization.  Granted, that group could be a whole thread unto itself.

The Saudi's are important allies, true; that doesn't mean they are good allies.  They use us just has much as we use them, mostly to keep Iran at bay.

I think it's big because he was probably the single largest dissident of the Saudi regime and Wahhabism at large.  It's not big because they took him out, hell we should expect it, but it's big because of the "no fucks given" way in which the Saudi's did it.


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## Cookie_ (Oct 20, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> What are the OBL links? I've read about his MB ones but not OBL.



He did a lot of interviews and travelling with OBL and the Mujahideen  in the 80's; he felt that fighting the Communist invaders was a just cause.

He distanced himself after OBL became anti-western, at least according to his own writings.  Hell, he was one of the first Saudi's to ask why some many of the 9/11 hijackers were Saudi Arabia.



> A journalist visiting the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia recently asked me why five out of six students he interviewed at King Saud University still believe that Al Qaida was not responsible for the attacks on the World Trade Center and the Pentagon in America last year? Dealing with this question is increasingly frustrating for me, because I have run out of plausible explanations.
> 
> I used to believe that denial of Saudi complicity in the attacks reflected our distress with what happened on that dark day. I hoped that we would have the courage to overcome our perceived humiliation and start looking deep into our national psyche, asking the big question, "Why did 15 of our young men attack America in so brutal a way?"
> 
> ...


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## amlove21 (Oct 20, 2018)

Soooooo.... no one thinks this is a great chance to put some sanctions/publicly shame one of the worst human rights violators in the modern world? AND give the opportunity for the president to do a little tough talking and look strong on the world stage? Gain some geopolitical leverage? Do almost nothing (in reality) but use that leverage to get the Saudi’s to stop beheading people in public and actually fund  2 or 3 of the proxy wars we are fighting for them behind closed doors without screwing up whatever balance (read: little to none) that region has?

Just me? Ok, welp, big gulps huh?


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 20, 2018)

Florida173 said:


> "Journalist" seems like just an easy excuse to hate on Saudi Arabia.



I rarely need an excuse to hate on Saudi Arabia.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 20, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Soooooo.... no one thinks this is a great chance to put some sanctions/publicly shame one of the worst human rights violators in the modern world? AND give the opportunity for the president to do a little tough talking and look strong on the world stage? Gain some geopolitical leverage? Do almost nothing (in reality) but use that leverage to get the Saudi’s to stop beheading people in public and actually fund  2 or 3 of the proxy wars we are fighting for them behind closed doors without screwing up whatever balance (read: little to none) that region has?
> 
> Just me? Ok, welp, big gulps huh?



I'd prefer a full withdrawal from the region except to buttress Israel and Jordan.


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## amlove21 (Oct 20, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> I'd prefer a full withdrawal from the region except to buttress Israel and Jordan.


Fair, but that’s a pipe dream for a lnogher day. 

Today, though, we have this opportunity, and we are missing it. We are leaving valuable political leverage on the table, IMO.


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## AWP (Oct 20, 2018)

The GCC is an interesting coalition with Saudi Arabia and the UAE jockeying for control. Saudi is the traditional leader, but the UAE has made its own moves. There's the possibility of a Saudi/ UAE split over the deseried end state in Yemen even though both sides are playing down that possibility. Qatar is a trash country, but we've invested heavily in Al Udeid. Kuwait is a group of snobbish, ungrateful people with proximity to Iraq and a lot of American military bases.

We could leverage the journalist's murder into some concessions, but would have to tead carefully and not overly antagonize the Saudi's. They are applying pressure to the Qatari dumpster fire and active in Yemen to offset Iran. We need Saudi, but we need them to be better partners.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 20, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Fair, but that’s a pipe dream for a lnogher day.
> 
> Today, though, we have this opportunity, and we are missing it. We are leaving valuable political leverage on the table, IMO.


Not sure what leverage we have in this and don't think we should give a fuck.  Dude did it himself.  

Geopolitically, are you ready to send the emissaries to Iran tomorrow to align with them? Why are we still in Syria?  Turkey and Saudi flexing nuts? No thanks I want nothing to do with that.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 21, 2018)

Jamal felt the only person capable of standing up to Saudia Arabia was Bernie Sanders. 

In Secret Final Interview, Jamal Khashoggi Says Only Bernie Sanders Was Willing To Stand Up To Saudi Arabia

More reason to suspect that Jamal was off his rockers.


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## MikeDelta (Oct 21, 2018)

BloodStripe said:


> Jamal felt the only person capable of standing up to Saudia Arabia was Bernie Sanders.
> 
> In Secret Final Interview, Jamal Khashoggi Says Only Bernie Sanders Was Willing To Stand Up To Saudi Arabia
> 
> More reason to suspect that Jamal was off his rockers.



Geez, what a loon..maybe he really did try to start a fist fight


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## Marauder06 (Oct 21, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Fair, but that’s a pipe dream for a lnogher day.
> 
> Today, though, we have this opportunity, and we are missing it. We are leaving valuable political leverage on the table, IMO.



I like the way you frame this, which is the same way I would:  what's the best way for us to maximize our benefit.

I personally find it really hard to care about what happened to Khashoggi.  A country killing a citizen of their country in someone else's country isn't a major problem for my country, IMO.  This is especially true if the stories about Khashoggi's involvement with Bin Laden and Al Qaeda, Saudi intelligence, and the Muslim Brotherhood are true.  The man was no friend of America's, or of the West's.  And it appears he might have been spying for the Turks.

The only reason I think the US should do anything at all is because it damages our credibility as the moral standard bearer for the world to let this kind of thing go unaddressed, and it involves a very public spat between two of our allies.  Additionally, if the US doesn't make something of a big deal out of this whenever it happens and whoever does it (looking at you Russia), it will encourage more of it and eventually someone will kills someone we actually *do* care about.

There are a couple of problems, though., with making this a really-super-big deal.  First of all, we kill our own citizens too, we just call it "warfare" and don't try to cover it up so much:  ACLU & CCR Lawsuit: American Boy Killed By U.S. Drone Strike 

Secondly, for all of our "the Saudis need us more than we need them" talk, we need the Saudis, folks.  They are useful regional allies, who are deathly enemies of our Iranian foes, who are taking the lead in dealing with the mess in Yemen, who want ISIS destroyed as much as we do (and are willing to do something about it), and who even help out behind the scenes with our Israel/Palestine problem.  

Of course, the Saudis also promote and export Wahabbism, which is a problem for us (and the rest of the world).  But I think that gets changed by a Westernized strongman, and it happens over time.

As a person, I think what happened is messed up.  The Saudis straight up murdered that dude, cut his body up, and took it God-knows-where and did God-knows-what with it.  From a realpolitik point of view though, I don't think it matters that much and I don't think we should jeopardize too much on his behalf.  I think we should loudly publicly admonish the Saudi regime, make a show of some temporary sanctions (perhaps postponing this big arms deal everyone is talking about), allow the Saudis their show trial and allow their patsies to take the fall.  Then we move on, after getting whatever we can out of the Saudis along the way.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 21, 2018)

I read this headline:

Murdered Saudi journalist was 'killed in a chokehold' | Daily Mail Online

And all I can think of is this:


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 21, 2018)

Using this as a holding place....seems to be enough of a story to deserve it's own thread....I'm going to move the posts in the Trump thread here.


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## amlove21 (Oct 21, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Using this as a holding place....seems to be enough of a story to deserve it's own thread....I'm going to move the posts in the Trump thread here.


Good call and thank you!

Agree with Mara... there is a situation to be exploited here. I am not smart enough to estimate ‘how much’, but I am smart enough to know that it’s more than ‘none’.

As for those that are taking the line of ‘he deserved it/what do you expect’- I’ll agree on the condition that we also agree that the people who did it ALSO agree a pee-pee whacking on some level because they’re pieces of shit, too.

And the opportunity for the president to look strong by tough talking a bit- it boggles my mind he hasn’t taken a hard line here even if it’s only talk. The dude talks constantly about fist fighting political opponents and we can’t get a little ‘fire and fury’ on this one?


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## GOTWA (Oct 21, 2018)

I've withheld from posting in this discussion because I couldn't remember WTF I was trying to search for.  Yay College...

From my understanding of this, and it's been a while since I've discussed this with anyone, but the actions of SA pose a huge issue for the US and our allies if we acknowledge that SA committed a human rights violation.  IMO, it's bigger than looking for a political advantage.  If we count on SA in that region to execute (lol...pun) their security obligations in the fight against terrorism, we would royally fuck up that partnership by admitting they done made a boo boo.  See below.



> The *Leahy Laws* or *Leahy amendments* are U.S. human rights laws that prohibit the U.S. Department of State and Department of Defense from providing military assistance to foreign security force units that violate human rights with impunity.[1] It is named after its principal sponsor, Senator Patrick Leahy (D-Vermont).[2]
> 
> The law covering State Department funded aid is found in Section 620M of the Foreign Assistance Act of 1961 (as amended most recently in January 2014).[7] It states:
> 
> ...


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 21, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> And the opportunity for the president to look strong by tough talking a bit- it boggles my mind he hasn’t taken a hard line here even if it’s only talk. The dude talks constantly about fist fighting political opponents and we can’t get a little ‘fire and fury’ on this one?



That one is easy...just like the Saudis did what they wanted under previous administrations.  Oil market impact.


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## MikeDelta (Oct 21, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Good call and thank you!
> 
> Agree with Mara... there is a situation to be exploited here. I am not smart enough to estimate ‘how much’, but I am smart enough to know that it’s more than ‘none’.
> 
> ...



My guess is that he’s simply not ready to rock the boat with the Saudis. And by vocally diminishing the value of a ‘journalists’ life in relation to a bigger geopolitical picture, is his backhanded way of sharing his sentiment towards journalists in general.


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## CQB (Oct 21, 2018)

A flaming bag of _qadban..._a lesser known ME delicacy. To partially answer the Apple watch question, there was an initil report of the sound going to his finacee outside on the street, but is this really possible due the distance?  I thought to transmit data the iPhone had to be quite close.


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## amlove21 (Oct 21, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> That one is easy...just like the Saudis did what they wanted under previous administrations.  Oil market impact.


But that’s what I’m saying- previous admins fucked up too (by valuing the business relationship too greatly) and led to the problem. 

This is the administration that puts America and its conservative ideals first, right? Seems like a slam dunk.


----------



## amlove21 (Oct 21, 2018)

MikeDelta said:


> My guess is that he’s simply not ready to rock the boat with the Saudis. And by vocally diminishing the value of a ‘journalists’ life in relation to a bigger geopolitical picture, is his backhanded way of sharing his sentiment towards journalists in general.


And that, rhetoric aside, is a scary prospect. ‘Agree with me or have your life valued differently’ is a very bad road.

I’ll disagree with you and say that angle absolutely doesn’t play a part here. Cause I’m an idealist.


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 21, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> And that, rhetoric aside, is a scary prospect. ‘Agree with me or have your life valued differently’ is a very bad road.
> 
> I’ll disagree with you and say that angle absolutely doesn’t play a part here. Cause I’m an idealist.



Yes, a scary prospect indeed; but then again, it is just a guess and not my fully formed opinion, or a fact.


----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 21, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> But that’s what I’m saying- previous admins fucked up too (by valuing the business relationship too greatly) and led to the problem.
> 
> This is the administration that puts America and its conservative ideals first, right? Seems like a slam dunk.



America first, yes.  But not conservatism.  In fact, one of the major critiques of Candidate Trump was that he's "isn't a conservative."  Top Republicans say Donald Trump’s real problem is that he’s too moderate


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 22, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> And that, rhetoric aside, is a scary prospect. ‘Agree with me or have your life valued differently’ is a very bad road.
> 
> I’ll disagree with you and say that angle absolutely doesn’t play a part here. Cause I’m an idealist.



That's really not what went down.  Think of this as street justice...dude was a former loyalist and advisor and then went over to their enemy (Erdogan) and used his platform as a "journalist" to admonish them.  He's just lucky he had so long.



CQB said:


> A flaming bag of _qadban..._a lesser known ME delicacy. To partially answer the Apple watch question, there was an initil report of the sound going to his finacee outside on the street, but is this really possible due the distance?  I thought to transmit data the iPhone had to be quite close.



If he had the latest version of the watch they have their own LTE chip...but where's the recording and htf would that not have been taken off him.  I'm sure gold plated apple watches are all the rage amongst the Saudi elite so there's no way they didn't know what it was.  So, again, no recording my guess.


----------



## Cookie_ (Oct 22, 2018)

In regards to the whole apple watch thing:

Occam's razor would suggest that either 
A) He had a more sophisticated recording device on him. (Likely spying for Turkey) 

Or B) Turkey just has the embassy bugged and doesn't want to admit that directly. 

Option B is probably the most likely.


----------



## Box (Oct 22, 2018)

For decades - republicans have pretended that they wanted champion the cause of energy independence - no more being held captive to saudi oil - blah blah blah

Now - the Saudis have handed the USA an excuse to halt cash deposits into the Sauid oil banks.
...call it an energy emergency - use the "emergency" to open a few spots in the USA that have been treated as sacred ground for drilling.  Just imagine the irony of a liberal love affair with radical journalists being the caytapult to a huge boon in the US oil industry that makes the ozone hole bigger.
But no - our leaders dont have the talent - "Drill baby drill - its an emergency and we "cant" buy oil from those US journalist killing Saudis.   Get that well dug - NOW - and then, once the media starts focusing on the next shiny object scandal or the next sophomoric Tweet - the oil industry can expand US operations and really stick it to the Saudis for good.
Sounds neat, 
but lets just tweet.

We will lose the oppurtunity - because our leaders are schmucks that only want to fund-raise and muckrake - foreign policy is what the NEXT administration can deal with when they take office.  American leaders from both side of the aisle past and present are experts at snatching defeat from the jaws of victory - this event will be no different.


----------



## amlove21 (Oct 22, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> America first, yes.  But not conservatism.  In fact, one of the major critiques of Candidate Trump was that he's "isn't a conservative."  Top Republicans say Donald Trump’s real problem is that he’s too moderate


And given his spending and a lot of other policies I would agree. I think I meant ‘conservative’ in the sense of values/alignment with the GOP in that realm. I’ll wholeheartedly agree he’s not there on stuff like spending. But this seems, again, like a big win on both sides of the aisle. American strength projected abroad to a theocrstocally run country that produced 19 hijackers responsible for 9/11 AND a symbolic gesture for human rights and equality for women and any number of leftist talking points. 

@ThunderHorse , that’s why I disagree with the notion that the president is dismissive because it’s a journalist- I am not willing to accept that the president is just flossing over a US resident and the father of citizens getting slaughtered because of the job he held. I’d like to think that’s absurd, but I’ve been wrong before.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 22, 2018)

We tend to give residency to all sorts of undesirables.  But you know, Dems shot down the State Department quotas because RACIST.


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 22, 2018)

*Surveillance footage shows Saudi 'body double' in Khashoggi's clothes after he was killed, Turkish source says*

https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/22/middleeast/saudi-operative-jamal-khashoggi-clothes/index.html

Interesting release by Turkey.

I know everyone wants something done and right now....but sometimes you got to let the investigation work through it.


----------



## amlove21 (Oct 22, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> We tend to give residency to all sorts of undesirables.  But you know, Dems shot down the State Department quotas because RACIST.


Man, I get it. I know what the situation is- but I am talking about using the situation for America's advantage. Not a partisan issue, at all. Has nothing to do with backhandedly maligning the press corps, or Dems and R's, or anything of the like.  

I dislike the way the admin is handling the issue because I think it's bad politics; no other reason.


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 22, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> *Surveillance footage shows Saudi 'body double' in Khashoggi's clothes after he was killed, Turkish source says*
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2018/10/22/middleeast/saudi-operative-jamal-khashoggi-clothes/index.html
> 
> ...



Yes, very interesting


----------



## Poccington (Oct 22, 2018)

Turkey are handling this masterfully.

Everytime the Saudi's have come up with their next bullshit version of events, the Turks just leak another bit of the information they obviously have to blow a hole in it.

It's a helluva way to damage one of the big players in the region.


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 22, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Man, I get it. I know what the situation is- but I am talking about using the situation for America's advantage. Not a partisan issue, at all. Has nothing to do with backhandedly maligning the press corps, or Dems and R's, or anything of the like.
> 
> I dislike the way the admin is handling the issue because I think it's bad politics; no other reason.



@amlove21 I hear you and I’m with you. My guess, and I do stress the word guess, likely just boils down the Saudis just doing what they wanted to do and the below excerpt from the media...

Saudi Arabia “has been a very important ally,” Mr. Trump said. He noted again, as he has repeatedly since Mr. Khashoggi’s disappearance, that the kingdom was spending billions of dollars on American weapons.

Now, why Turkey decided to stir the pot and alert the U.S.A. is the not so obvious unknown factor to me. Maybe they did this to absolve themselves from what happened to Khashoggi? Not sure. What IS obvious is that the Saudis had a big beef with this guy and were going to confront Kashshoogi either to terminate him or  strike fear into him come hell or high water.


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 22, 2018)

Poccington said:


> Turkey are handling this masterfully.
> 
> Everytime the Saudi's have come up with their next bullshit version of events, the Turks just leak another bit of the information they obviously have to blow a hole in it.
> 
> It's a helluva way to damage one of the big players in the region.



Agreed. Besides absolving themselves from participation I wonder what they’re angle is?


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 22, 2018)

Anyone have an opinion as to why Turkey blew the whistle, besides  trying to keep their hands clean?


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 22, 2018)

Poccington said:


> Turkey are handling this masterfully.
> 
> Everytime the Saudi's have come up with their next bullshit version of events, the Turks just leak another bit of the information they obviously have to blow a hole in it.
> 
> It's a helluva way to damage one of the big players in the region.



@Poccington Whats your opinion as to why the Turks would do this, besides trying to absolve themselves from being involved?


----------



## Poccington (Oct 22, 2018)

MikeDelta said:


> @Poccington Whats your opinion as to why the Turks would do this, besides trying to absolve themselves from being involved?



Hoping to somewhat diminish the Saudis/MBS' standing as a big player in the Middle East would be my guess as to their main effort, especially with Turkey going to be looking to assert itself in the post Syria landscape.

Also, it's worth remembering that Erdogan is in the dog house with the West for generally being an absurdly corrupt autocrat so once they got their hands on the information, it's a chance for a big PR win for him and his regime.


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 22, 2018)

Poccington said:


> Hoping to somewhat diminish the Saudis/MBS' standing as a big player in the Middle East would be my guess as to their main effort, especially with Turkey going to be looking to assert itself in the post Syria landscape.
> 
> Also, it's worth remembering that Erdogan is in the dog house with the West for generally being an absurdly corrupt autocrat so once they got their hands on the information, it's a chance for a big PR win for him and his regime.



Makes sense...an olive branch (apropos for Turkey)...


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 22, 2018)

Poccington said:


> Hoping to somewhat diminish the Saudis/MBS' standing as a big player in the Middle East would be my guess as to their main effort, especially with Turkey going to be looking to assert itself in the post Syria landscape.
> 
> Also, it's worth remembering that Erdogan is in the dog house with the West for generally being an absurdly corrupt autocrat so once they got their hands on the information, it's a chance for a big PR win for him and his regime.



I disagree.  Erdogan is all about the Muslim Brotherhood crap through his policies. Theocracy through election.  Kashoggi became one of his.  Let them launch missiles at each other, they can both slag off.


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 22, 2018)

Overall a pretty sloppy state sponsored assassination...at least they didn't use a weapons grade biological weapon in a public place...like others have done recently.


----------



## Devildoc (Oct 23, 2018)




----------



## 757 (Oct 23, 2018)

I'd imagine the conversation between the Erdogan and M.B.S. went something like this: "Hello pot, my name is kettle, you're black."

I agree with @Poccington. Erdogan is all about resurrecting the Turks to their "rightful place" in the M.E. However, after he shot himself in the foot, Erdogan is, most likely, trying to earn himself back into Trump's good grace while also taking a fairly heavy swipe at a geopolitical foe. #2forthepriceof1

To be fair, the Turks and Arabs couldn't care less about each other. Also, as @ThunderHorse pointed out, Erdogan has been a fairly fervent supporter of the M.B. since he 1970's.

The Leahy Laws are interesting. Technically, they probably should apply. That said, considering we trained "Cambodia's armed forces - including units with records of serious rights violations such as Brigade 31, Battalion 70, and Airborne Brigade 911..." I am skeptical that we will apply these laws for this event, especially if the Saudi's make the smart play and go forward with their public sham trial.


----------



## GOTWA (Oct 23, 2018)

757 said:


> The Leahy Laws are interesting. Technically, they probably should apply. That said, considering we trained "Cambodia's armed forces - including units with records of serious rights violations such as Brigade 31, Battalion 70, and Airborne Brigade 911..." I am skeptical that we will apply these laws for this event, especially if the Saudi's make the smart play and go forward with their public sham trial.



The key is acknowledging it, which the US haven't done in a formal manner.  At least IMO.


----------



## 757 (Oct 23, 2018)

GOTWA said:


> The key is acknowledging it, which the US haven't done in a formal manner.  At least IMO.



Agreed. That said, Trump seems publicly willing to "believe" the Saudi version of the events, at least for now. I am personally interested to see if Turkey has a video/audio recording of the execution. If Trump sees/hears that, all bets may be off. Seeing those kids die in Syria struck a chord somewhere inside of him, maybe a recording of this would have a similar affect, something the Saudi's can ill afford.


----------



## MikeDelta (Oct 23, 2018)

757 said:


> Agreed. That said, Trump seems publicly willing to "believe" the Saudi version of the events, at least for now. I am personally interested to see if Turkey has a video/audio recording of the execution. If Trump sees/hears that, all bets may be off. Seeing those kids die in Syria struck a chord somewhere inside of him, maybe a recording of this would have a similar affect, something the Saudi's can ill afford.



Maybe we have that recording and we’ll play that card against Saudi when it would be most advantageous to us.


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 23, 2018)

Spin control in Saudi....

*Staged photos show Khashoggi's son shaking hands with the Saudi crown prince, who many believe ordered his father's killing*

Staged photos show Khashoggi's son shaking hands with the Saudi crown prince, who many believe ordered his father's killing


----------



## policemedic (Oct 23, 2018)

After following this event for awhile, I've come to a couple of conclusions.

The first is that it is an interesting way for a nation to solve a (perceived) problem.  Not a good one, mind.  But interesting nonetheless.

The second is that a foreign national was killed by a foreign government in yet another foreign country.  I honestly don't have a fuck to give.


----------



## Box (Oct 24, 2018)

policemedic said:


> ...a foreign national was killed by a foreign government in yet another foreign country. I honestly don't have a fuck to give.




Agreed - If you were to gaze out upon the garden where I grow all of the fucks that I give - you would find that my garden is bare


----------



## GOTWA (Oct 24, 2018)

Box said:


> Agreed - If you were to gaze out upon the garden where I grow all of the fucks that I give - you would find that my garden is bare



You need to water more.


----------



## CQB (Oct 30, 2018)

Looks like MI6 were ahead of the curve. It was also reported by our national daily here but its' pay walled. 

British Intelligence Reportedly Knew Saudi Arabia Planned To Murder Jamal Khashoggi And Begged Them To Abort


----------



## Gunz (Oct 30, 2018)

CQB said:


> Looks like MI6 were ahead of the curve. It was also reported by our national daily here but its' pay walled.
> 
> British Intelligence Reportedly Knew Saudi Arabia Planned To Murder Jamal Khashoggi And Begged Them To Abort



Two years ago the Saudis were using Willie Pete, allegedly against civilian targets. And there've been numerous reports since that they've stepped it up to chem weapons supplied by the US/Britain. I think Khashoggi had more on them than this.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 30, 2018)

CQB said:


> Looks like MI6 were ahead of the curve. It was also reported by our national daily here but its' pay walled.
> 
> British Intelligence Reportedly Knew Saudi Arabia Planned To Murder Jamal Khashoggi And Begged Them To Abort


Hmmm, can't seem to find another source on this.


----------



## CQB (Oct 31, 2018)

Here’s the original pay walled one I mentioned
Nocookies

Plus

Khashoggi BOMBSHELL: Britain 'KNEW of kidnap plot and BEGGED Saudi Arabia to abort plans'

Evidence suggests crown prince ordered Khashoggi killing, says ex-MI6 chief

There’s a few more, these are random samples.


----------



## Box (Oct 31, 2018)

Brits withheld information = the USA must be at fault here


----------



## CQB (Oct 31, 2018)

Oh indeed.  🍟


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 31, 2018)

CQB said:


> Here’s the original pay walled one I mentioned
> Nocookies
> 
> Plus
> ...


The reason I asked is the first one was from The Intercept.  Obviously the Guardian is a bit more up and up, when I first read the Intercept report I couldn't verify with my googlefu.  Thanks for the additional articles.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 31, 2018)

I have no doubt bin Salman had the guy killed. He might be a reformer but he's not afraid of whacking people...and Khashoggi was a burr under the saddle.

I find the outrage over the murder a bit feeble. The Saudi's have long practiced lethal justice. It's not like they're some socialist/progressive Western democracy. You can take the Bedouin out of the desert, give them Mercedes Benz's and falcons and trillions of dollars...but you can't take the desert out of the Bedouin. In their minds, they're still riding and raiding.


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 31, 2018)

Is MBS whacking a guy different than Israel whacking someone?

I am still waiting for the audiotape to get released.

Turkey is playing the sauds like a fiddle, they need to stop reacting and demand the release of the tape.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 31, 2018)

What tape?  If there was a tape it would be out already IMO.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 31, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> Is MBS whacking a guy different than Israel whacking someone?
> 
> .



No difference. The Israelis do it. The Russians do it. The NKs do it. Half the countries in Africa, Central and South America do it. We do it, sometimes with drones. The PRC does it, the Myanmars, etc...

Assassination has gained a lot of respectability over the years. If it's done right, it solves annoying problems on the cheap.


----------



## Florida173 (Nov 16, 2018)

One guy looks like Patrick Bateman.. WTF

BREAKING: Turkey leaks photos of Jamal Khashoggi’s dismemberment by Saudi authorities | Al Sura English


----------



## 757 (Nov 16, 2018)

Florida173 said:


> One guy looks like Patrick Bateman.. WTF
> 
> BREAKING: Turkey leaks photos of Jamal Khashoggi’s dismemberment by Saudi authorities | Al Sura English



Those appear to be pics from the famous French thriller Braquo.


----------



## J. (Nov 16, 2018)

I’ll take_ “Things that are not shocking” _for 200, Alex.

Jamal Khashoggi Was Killed on Saudi Crown Prince’s Orders, C.I.A. Concludes


----------



## SpitfireV (Nov 16, 2018)

Saudi Arabia has a green flag, CIA also reports.


----------



## MikeDelta (Nov 17, 2018)

Florida173 said:


> One guy looks like Patrick Bateman.. WTF


----------



## amlove21 (Nov 20, 2018)

The president won't listen to the tape (which exists) because he doesn't posses the constitution. It's ok to call that what it is.

He also refuses to say that the crown prince had anything to do with it. I've said it before, there might be a better way to go about this, but this is what we got.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 20, 2018)

Still waiting on this tape to be released btw.


----------



## GOTWA (Nov 20, 2018)

I'm not surprised by anything anymore. Business as normal.


----------



## policemedic (Nov 20, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Still waiting on this tape to be released btw.



Why?  What earthly business does any of us have with that tape? What benefit comes from hearing it?


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 20, 2018)

policemedic said:


> Why?  What earthly business does any of us have with that tape? What benefit comes from hearing it?


Hard agree.


----------



## SpitfireV (Nov 20, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Still waiting on this tape to be released btw.



That would be massively disrespectful to his family, regardless of who he was. 

Also, you don't want to listen to that if you don't have to. This kind of shit isn't nice and people shouldn't go looking for it if they're not being paid to.


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 20, 2018)

Because everyone thinks they have the right to hear and see everything.......


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 20, 2018)

policemedic said:


> Why?  What earthly business does any of us have with that tape? What benefit comes from hearing it?


I guess I'm the only one who's skeptical here?  Just like those leaked "photos" were from a French movie.

Now, I ain't saying he wasn't killed.  But when it comes to acknowledging things, I like evidence.  It's just that simple for me.


----------



## SpitfireV (Nov 20, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> I guess I'm the only one who's skeptical here?  Just like those leaked "photos" were from a French movie.
> 
> Now, I ain't saying he wasn't killed.  But when it comes to acknowledging things, I like evidence.



Sorry, what position are you in to determine if it's real or not?


----------



## policemedic (Nov 20, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> I guess I'm the only one who's skeptical here?  Just like those leaked "photos" were from a French movie.
> 
> Now, I ain't saying he wasn't killed.  But when it comes to acknowledging things, I like evidence.



So, here’s the thing. You’re not entitled to any evidence.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 20, 2018)

policemedic said:


> So, here’s the thing. You’re not entitled to any evidence.



Well, we'll just have different opinions about this.


----------



## SpitfireV (Nov 20, 2018)

Could I please have a reply too.


----------



## policemedic (Nov 20, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Well, we'll just have different opinions about this.



No, please enlighten me. A Saudi citizen was killed on Saudi soil in Turkey, and you think you’re entitled to hear his last moments because it’s “evidence” (a word that clearly means different things to you and I). I’d love to hear why you think you have a right to anything in this matter.


----------



## Gordus (Nov 20, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> Overall a pretty sloppy





> *FISTFIGHT*



I feel that is an incredibly generous understatement.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 20, 2018)

policemedic said:


> No, please enlighten me. A Saudi citizen was killed on Saudi soil in Turkey, and you think you’re you’re entitled to hear his last moments because it’s “evidence” (a word that clearly means different things to you and I). I’d love to hear why you think you have a right to anything in this matter.



My opinion, throughout this whole affair, has been trying to figure out why our government cares at all about this and why Americans are seemingly so WOKE about this.  Kashoggi, a former Saudi Royal insider crossed the wrong dude...previous post, article posted by Dame or Racing Kitty (I forget) gives us the background on him.  He became a member/advocate for the Muslim Brotherhood (a terrorist organization), and then became an advisor/confidant of Erdogan (Who ain't no saint).  So, why do we give a shit at the real politik level?  Here is another article by the Brookings Institute highlighting his connections to the Muslim Brotherhood.  Haaretz on links to Palestinian Terrorism.  Another interesting article from Spectator: Why Trump is right to stand by Saudi Arabia | Spectator USA

Do I think he was murdered, that fact I'm pretty sure of.  When it comes to evidence supposedly recorded by an apple watch that was then somehow sent to Turkish intelligence?  That would be pretty impressive and the Turks through the Media are like "WE HAVE EVIDENCE, WE SENT IT ALL OVER THE WORLD".  Ok, post it.  That's my opinion.


----------



## SpitfireV (Nov 20, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> My opinion, throughout this whole affair, has been trying to figure out why our government cares at all about this and why Americans are seemingly so WOKE about this.  Kashoggi, a former Saudi Royal insider crossed the wrong dude...previous post, article posted by Dame or Racing Kitty (I forget) gives us the background on him.  He became a member/advocate for the Muslim Brotherhood (a terrorist organization), and then became an advisor/confidant of Erdogan (Who ain't no saint).  So, why do we give a shit at the real politik level?  Here is another article by the Brookings Institute highlighting his connections to the Muslim Brotherhood.  Haaretz on links to Palestinian Terrorism.  Another interesting article from Spectator: Why Trump is right to stand by Saudi Arabia | Spectator USA
> 
> Do I think he was murdered, that fact I'm pretty sure of.  When it comes to evidence supposedly recorded by an apple watch that was then somehow sent to Turkish intelligence?  That would be pretty impressive and the Turks through the Media are like "WE HAVE EVIDENCE, WE SENT IT ALL OVER THE WORLD".  Ok, post it.  That's my opinion.



So your argument is basically "America shouldn't care but I'm curious"?


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 20, 2018)

I've revisited this thread a bunch of times.  I don't know if it's a result of reading @racing_kitty 's article early on (which was a great post) or something else but, try as I might, I just struggle to give a shit about this guy or the story.


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 20, 2018)

I am interested in this case, but more from a rule of law standpoint.  Does Turkey have any jurisdiction in this murder? A consulate or Embassy property is sovereign soil of that nation, so the murder happened in Saudi......no Turkey jurisdiction...very interesting to me overall. Unless Turkey can prove he was taken by force outside the consulate.  But do I, have any right to hear the tape or know the details of the investigation....no.

Do I, as a Police Detective in one jurisdiction, have the *right *to see or hear any evidence of a investigation in another jurisdiction...no. I can wait like everyone else to see what comes out at the trial, a pubic forum.


----------



## SpitfireV (Nov 20, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> I am interested in this case, but more from a rule of law standpoint.  Does Turkey have any jurisdiction in this murder? A consulate or Embassy property is sovereign soil of that nation, so the murder happened in Saudi......no Turkey jurisdiction...very interesting to me overall. Unless Turkey can prove he was taken by force outside the consulate.  But do I, have any right to hear the tape or know the details of the investigation....no.
> 
> Do I, as a Police Detective in one jurisdiction, have the *right *to see or hear any evidence of a investigation in another jurisdiction...no. I can wait like everyone else to see what comes out at the trial, a pubic forum.



I was interested myself. Years ago I asked a cop here who worked with dips and he said it was a "grey area and noone is quite sure." He'd been given the go-ahead to arrest on the ground of this embassy by the embassy staff. 

Found this though. Applies to the UK but I'm sure principals are similar worldwide. 



> While diplomatic premises in the UK are part of UK territory, they are inviolable and may not be entered without the consent of the Ambassador or Head of Mission. (See DPA 1964 section 2(1) and Schedule 3). Any offences committed in diplomatic premises in the UK are triable under the ordinary principles of English law, subject to the principles of diplomatic immunity for those who have it. Those who do not have this status (whatever their nationality) can be prosecuted as normal, as for example happened in the case of the terrorists who seized the Iranian embassy in London in 1980.



Diplomatic Immunity and Diplomatic Premises | The Crown Prosecution Service


----------



## medicchick (Nov 20, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> Sorry, what position are you in to determine if it's real or not?


I am in no way trying to defend Thunderhorse but if you mean the pictures being fake the paper printed a retraction about them. I just wanted you to get an answer.


----------



## SpitfireV (Nov 20, 2018)

medicchick said:


> I am in no way trying to defend Thunderhorse but if you mean the pictures being fake the paper printed a retraction about them. I just wanted you to get an answer.



Thanks! But I was meaning the recordings.


----------



## medicchick (Nov 20, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> Thanks! But I was meaning the recordings.


Gotcha. I was having a "discussion" earlier with someone about the photos, they refused to read the retraction.

I've heard and seen enough people die I for one have no desire to hear/see any recordings that may exist.


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 20, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> I was interested myself. Years ago I asked a cop here who worked with dips and he said it was a "grey area and noone is quite sure." He'd been given the go-ahead to arrest on the ground of this embassy by the embassy staff.
> 
> Found this though. Applies to the UK but I'm sure principals are similar worldwide.
> 
> ...



difference is, the embassy in London was overtaken by outside forces.....so the host country would certainly have jurisdiction. Not so in this case.

also "He'd been given the go-ahead to arrest on the ground of this embassy by the embassy staff" key thing there is the embassy staff allowed the arrest.


----------



## SpitfireV (Nov 20, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> difference is, the embassy in London was overtaken by outside forces.....so the host country would certainly have jurisdiction. Not so in this case.



That's only a high profile example of an offence to get the point across, though.


----------



## SaintKP (Nov 20, 2018)

I think diplomatic immunity applies due to the sovereignty of embassies, and besides what are the Jordanians going to do if they feel strongly enough about it or us for that matter? Aside from diplomatic rah-rah and condemnations.


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## Kraut783 (Nov 20, 2018)

Understood SpitfireV,  but...if the country of the embassy or consulate does not consent to the host country...the treaties are pretty inviolate. If it wasn't...the cold war would have been a lot different.


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## amlove21 (Nov 20, 2018)

The fact that the president admits to not listening to the tape verifies undoubtedly that there IS a tape. All intelligence reporting and verified sourcing confirms these events did in fact happen. Not a lot to be discussed, really. Anyone arguing that this event is a fake?

Spin this however it needs to be so it aligns with your value set, but this journalist was apprehended and brutally murdered at the order of Saudi Arabia. If the CIA is to be believed, that order came from the crown prince, who our administration won’t condemn cause... reasons.


How you square the ordered killing and dismemberment of another human is on you. 

Moral relativism on full display in some arguments here.


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## Box (Nov 21, 2018)

Maybe these guys were conducting a kill/capture CONOP that had been approved through proper channels and they just failed to consult the USA first.

Maybe those damn Arabians are just being the same murderous thugs that they have been for a thousand years. 

Maybe we should just go apologize to them for our constant interference in world affairs.

The current POTUS has no road to victory here - the last guy went on a world wide apology tour because America is constantly doing the very thing that we are now DEMANDING that the new guy runs out to do.  Americans did a whole lot of "no blood for oil" protesting the FIRST time we put troops on Saudi soil (even though it was Iraqi oil we were protesting).  I'm just not sure where I should focus my outrage.  
The Saudis killed a Saudi in Turkey - but he worked with the US media so that means I need to be outraged that free-speech is under assault - I just want to display the appropriate levels of moral outrage so I can maintain a low hypocrisy level during the Thanksgiving Holiday. 
I dont want to feel guilty about the murder of one innocent cultural icon while I am eating my turkey and cranberries to celebrate my nations triumph over a different innocent cultural group. 

Otherwise, we should immediately assume our role as _Team America: World Police_ and bring Saudi Arabia to justice. 
Lets fuck them up bad and then take their oil as punishment - then the POTUS cant hide behind his excuse that the Saudis will raise global oil prices if _Team America: World Police_ start meddling in their business.

Please someone tell me how to be a good citizen with regard to this bloody scandal !!!


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## AWP (Nov 21, 2018)

Who do I have to kill in order to place @Box in charge for 30 days?


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## Muppet (Nov 21, 2018)

Box said:


> Maybe these guys where conducting a kill/capture CONOP that had been approved through proper channels and they just failed to consult the USA first.
> 
> Maybe those damn Arabians are just being the same murderous thugs that they have been for a thousand years.
> 
> ...



This completes me. Why should we give a fuck.


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## SaintKP (Nov 21, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Moral relativism on full display in some arguments here



Not to potentially derail the thread but I think everyone here can agree what happened is wrong, but the question lies in why should we be up in arms? More heinous stuff happens on a day to day and night to night basis in *pick your 3rd world country* but we go on with our lives drinking Starbucks and face timing whoever. But now that it's a journalist that wasn't even American we need to grab the pitchforks and demand retribution? Why?


I apologize if I misinterpreted your statement, please correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Kraut783 (Nov 21, 2018)

Heinous thing happen in US cities across America, murders, rape, dismemberments...etc.  Been working them for 30 years....so yeah, this murder is just another one that has my law of order interests peaked...but that's about it.


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## amlove21 (Nov 21, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> Not to potentially derail the thread but I think everyone here can agree what happened is wrong, but the question lies in why should we be up in arms? More heinous stuff happens on a day to day and night to night basis in *pick your 3rd world country* but we go on with our lives drinking Starbucks and face timing whoever. But now that it's a journalist that wasn't even American we need to grab the pitchforks and demand retribution? Why?
> 
> 
> I apologize if I misinterpreted your statement, please correct me if I'm wrong.


No, you didn't misinterpret me. Your comment (and to a degree @Kraut783 's) is what I meant by my comment. 

Yes, terrible things happen every day, all the time, everywhere. However, we 100% know about _this _terrible thing AND we would be completely justified to engage diplomatically and strengthen America's position as a moral leader. We are supposed to have these western values, right?  I know it could possibly endanger the arms deal we are working (how big is it, again?) with the Saudi's, and some would make the argument that in order to continue pressure on Iran in that area; but as i have stated before it's the easiest kill and best soundbite for a president that needs one. 

Here's the point- if you were in a room with someone committing a heinous act, would you say, "Stuff like this happens everywhere. Has since the beginning of time; plus, the person getting murdered may or may not have some associations I don't approve of."? Probably not, right? I don't really care how much "they deserved it", I don't think a ton of people on this board would just continue on with their day if they could stop another human from getting killed that was previously just going about their day. Maybe I am wrong?

It's the internet, I think, but my comment was an observation after re-reading these pages and seeing, "Fuck that guy why do I care if our ally ordered his death and recorded it? Furthermore, why should I want my administration to care about it?" in a couple of iterations.


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## Blizzard (Nov 21, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Here's the point- if you were in a room with someone committing a heinous act, would you say, "Stuff like this happens everywhere. Has since the beginning of time; plus, the person getting murdered may or may not have some associations I don't approve of."? Probably not, right? I don't really care how much "they deserved it", I don't think a ton of people on this board would just continue on with their day if they could stop another human from getting killed that was previously just going about their day. Maybe I am wrong?


Man, I don't know about trying to draw that parallel.  It's more than pretty thin.  Essentially, that statement implies we were there and complicit in the crime.  That's a very, very different scenario than what took place.


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## SaintKP (Nov 21, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> No, you didn't misinterpret me. Your comment (and to a degree @Kraut783 's) is what I meant by my comment.
> 
> Yes, terrible things happen every day, all the time, everywhere. However, we 100% know about _this _terrible thing AND we would be completely justified to engage diplomatically and strengthen America's position as a moral leader. We are supposed to have these western values, right?  I know it could possibly endanger the arms deal we are working (how big is it, again?) with the Saudi's, and some would make the argument that in order to continue pressure on Iran in that area; but as i have stated before it's the easiest kill and best soundbite for a president that needs one.
> 
> ...




I'm in agreeance with you, I think I just hold a more cynical stance. Obviously you never know what you will do if put into a situation, but I'd like to think I'd do something to stop it or make sure follow up actions are done.

But in a society of outrage, where does this lie? Should this be at the top of my priorities for the thing the president to tackle? More in the middle? The bottom? 

Maybe I'm just tired of the dog and pony show that is our modern politics, where when something happens that is undeniably immoral (based upon our own western interpretations) all that really happens is a metaphorical slap on the wrist and a 30 second soundbite to earn brownie points. 

Would I love for everyone to stop being dicks to each other for 5 seconds and realize that we as a species have more in common than what makes us different? Yeah definitely, sign me up. I don't know, but I'm with you on the fact that a simple statement condemning the act only takes a moment. Whether or not how I feel on the meaning beyond the statement is irrelevant.


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## amlove21 (Nov 21, 2018)

Blizzard said:


> Man, I don't know about trying to draw that parallel.  It's more than pretty thin.  Essentially, that statement implies we were there and complicit in the crime.  That's a very, very different scenario than what took place.


Oh I absolutely agree with you 100%. That parallel is bullshit and I don't think that. 

I don't mean we (the US) were in a position to stop what happened. What I _did _mean is everyone talking a tough game (here and in general) about who "deserves" to die for any number of reasons is either being disingenuous for the likes or a shitty human in general. I wasn't making a parallel about what our administration's actions were or are; I am, however, voicing my displeasure with people saying, "fuck that guy, he got what he deserved because he was a terrorist/not an American anyway/shit like this happens everywhere it's just another human dead I don't care." 

I think you took what I said (and you quoted) as a critique on the Admin; I meant it for the people commenting on whether or not they care about Jamal Kashaggi, the person, being slaughtered. If that's someone's actual position- that you can straight up merk civilians in a consulate-I understand it, I personally just feel like that person is a fucking idiot. 


It's not about party; it's about how there has to be a line somewhere. Where is the bar? We are ok with straight up murder of civilians now, as long as we can justify it by moving the goalposts? I think that's horseshit, that's all. And that's not outrage of any sort, @SaintKP , so I'm not sure where it falls on your scale. But, if we look at this as a chance to win an ideological battle with one of the most brutal regimes in recent history that just so happens to be our ally, maybe it should rank higher?

Murder is bad. We, as a country, should encourage our elected officials to not stand for the state sponsored  murder of civilians that live in Virginia in exile. I think that's as boiled down as far as I can get my position.


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## SaintKP (Nov 21, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> It's not about party; it's about how there has to be a line somewhere. Where is the bar? We are ok with straight up murder of civilians now, as long as we can justify it by moving the goalposts? I think that's horseshit, that's all. And that's not outrage of any sort, @SaintKP , so I'm not sure where it falls on your scale. But, if we look at this as a chance to win an ideological battle with one of the most brutal regimes in recent history that just so happens to be our ally, maybe it should rank higher?
> 
> Murder is bad. We, as a country, should encourage our elected officials to not stand for the state sponsored murder of civilians that live in Virginia in exile. I think that's as boiled down as far as I can get my position.




I read you loud and clear, I'm all for trying to win ideological battles and change the world for the better. But the question I was trying to raise in my original post, is what? At most, will be done? Realistically that is.

While I don't agree with the stances of "I don't give a fuck", I can see where they're coming from. It's a foreign citizen, in a foreign country, killed by another foreign state. We have our own problems right here in America, why should this be on our collective radars? And if it is, then this goes back to my original question. What, realistically, will be done to stop it, or prevent it from happening. Outside of said 30 second soundbite.

Outrage may have been a bad term to use, but as the saying goes "pick your battles" is this a battle worth picking when there are other issues at hand?


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## amlove21 (Nov 21, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> I read you loud and clear, I'm all for trying to win ideological battles and change the world for the better. But the question I was trying to raise in my original post, is what? At most, will be done? Realistically that is.
> 
> While I don't agree with the stances of "I don't give a fuck", I can see where they're coming from. It's a foreign citizen, in a foreign country, killed by another foreign state. We have our own problems right here in America, why should this be on our collective radars? And if it is, then this goes back to my original question. What, realistically, will be done to stop it, or prevent it from happening. Outside of said 30 second soundbite.
> 
> Outrage may have been a bad term to use, but as the saying goes "pick your battles" is this a battle worth picking when there are other issues at hand?


I think I laid out those reasons why earlier in the thread, mainly for the geopolitical credit I think we are passing up.

If you go back and read and still have questions, I would be happy to expound. I'm an expounder.


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## SaintKP (Nov 21, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> I think I laid out those reasons why earlier in the thread, mainly for the geopolitical credit I think we are passing up.
> 
> If you go back and read and still have questions, I would be happy to expound. I'm an expounder.



I know you did, but my question for you is what geo-political gain is there in a 30 second soundbite condemning the actions, what realistic sanctions if any, will be imposed on one of our own allies who we regularly complete arms deals (even if that record deal is no where even near the target amount, which is hilarious in it's own right) and is one of our top oil partners.

Yeah it's an easy W for the President to make, literally underhand slowpitch softball levels. But it isn't one he will make, whether it be from exaggerated fear of secondary responses from SA or some other unknown reason.


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## Poccington (Nov 21, 2018)

Soft Power is still a thing in the world. 

It's probably worth remembering when the question of "Who fucking cares?" is asked.


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## SpitfireV (Nov 21, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> Understood SpitfireV,  but...if the country of the embassy or consulate does not consent to the host country...the treaties are pretty inviolate. If it wasn't...the cold war would have been a lot different.



I think we're on the same page, it's an issue of treaties vs laws. A treaty isn't law but it's an understanding that certain things will and will not happen so while in law something might be technically true in actuality that thing is essentially ignored by treaty (because you want the same treatment for your own people).


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## 757 (Nov 21, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> I think we're on the same page, it's an issue of treaties vs laws. A treaty isn't law but it's an understanding that certain things will and will not happen so while in law something might be technically true in actuality that thing is essentially ignored by treaty (because you want the same treatment for your own people).




A treaty isn't law??? Please elaborate.


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## 757 (Nov 21, 2018)

Also, if an Islamic State Jihadist beheaded an Al-Qaeda fighter and we had an audio recording of everything that entailed, would we feel different/should we feel different than we do about this man??? Why/why not???


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## SpitfireV (Nov 21, 2018)

757 said:


> A treaty isn't law??? Please elaborate.



Well not necessarily, no. Remember we're talking about the Vienna _Convention_ here, a series of basically gentlemen's agreements. Some countries have codified elements in law but some haven't. Most didn't until long after the agreements if they did.


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## Kraut783 (Nov 21, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> I think we're on the same page, it's an issue of treaties vs laws. A treaty isn't law but it's an understanding that certain things will and will not happen so while in law something might be technically true in actuality that thing is essentially ignored by treaty (because you want the same treatment for your own people).



Agreed; Treaties....and most countries have laws to help enforce the treaty agreements in their country.

"Vienna Convention on Diplomatic Relations 

The treaty is an extensive document, containing 53 articles. The following is a basic overview of its key provisions.

Article 9. The host nation at any time and for any reason can declare a particular member of the diplomatic staff to bepersona non grata. The sending state must recall this person within a reasonable period of time, or otherwise this person may lose their diplomatic immunity.
Article 22. The premises of a diplomatic mission, such as an embassy, are inviolable and must not be entered by the host country except by permission of the head of the mission. Furthermore, the host country must protect the mission from intrusion or damage. The host country must never search the premises, nor seize its documents or property. Article 30 extends this provision to the private residence of the diplomats.
Article 24 establishes that the archives and documents of a diplomatic mission are inviolable. The receiving country shall not seize or open such documents."


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## Kraut783 (Nov 21, 2018)

757 said:


> Also, if an Islamic State Jihadist beheaded an Al-Qaeda fighter and we had an audio recording of everything that entailed, would we feel different/should we feel different than we do about this man??? Why/why not???



Neither the Islamic State or AQ is a sovereign country....we weren't talking about the morality of the act (State sanctioned murder)  but the treaties/laws that were used/abused to allow it to happen.


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## MikeDelta (Nov 21, 2018)

Box said:


> Maybe these guys were conducting a kill/capture CONOP that had been approved through proper channels and they just failed to consult the USA first.
> 
> Maybe those damn Arabians are just being the same murderous thugs that they have been for a thousand years.
> 
> ...



Enjoy your turkey and cranberries...I know I will...the end


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## amlove21 (Nov 22, 2018)

@SaintKP Sorry for the delay, I wanted to re-read my previous posts and think about a solid answer. I'll try and be concise as possible; I have a bad habit of over talking.

It's just another example of having a narcissist that's politically inept in the Oval Office. President Trump is good at some things, he's terrible at others. This whole kerfuffle is a great example of the things he's bad at. Vision? Terrible. Leadership? Not great. Speaking off the cuff? Shit show.  

America First Political Gain-
 1- President Trump needs to be focusing on 2020. Every engagement, every soundbite. Tell me which soundbite is better- _"I won't threaten the world economy over an issue that really isn't any of our business" _or _"America is a human rights champion and we will not partner with entities that violate human rights the way Saudi Arabia did. Although my 5 predecessors were weak on SA and blatantly ignored this regime, I won't." _The first he actually said to a reporter, which the left jumped on saying, "GASP CAN WE LIVE IN A WORLD WHERE THE PRESIDENT VALUES MONEY OVER HUMAN RIGHTS". The second is me, an idiot, coming up with something better that fits a narrative that's actually useful. The "official statement" put out by the WH (now with 100% more exclamation marks than needed for official communication) was a shit show. "Listen, I know a guy got killed and dismembered on tape. But SA keeps oil prices low. So, so important for the world. Here is the why it's important for us to ignore human rights violations because here is what else SA does and how much money we stand to make."

2- President Trump needs to hold a theme for about 18 months, and that theme is, "The left is crazy, they're going to hate me no matter what, but I am not as bad as they say and I am making more and more moderate calls." He can use that sort of stance to pivot to literally everything- the border wall? "Human Rights Protector". Immigration? Bam, lemme throw on this cape of me protecting humans BUT wanting strong immigration laws. It's a 30 second soundbite that has massive political gain.But, left to his own devices, the dude trolls and prefers getting press.

3- Every. Single. President since 1970 has been a fucking liar about SA. "They're our ally so we will turn a blind eye to them being shitty." has been the official narrative since forever. Obama was worse with Iran. Bush (both) were worse with Iran and SA. Literally every president has turned a blind eye to the shithole that is SA because it's valuable to us for other reasons. President Trump just said the inside part on the outside because that's what he does. He's ignoring the opportunity to be the first president that actually breaks the fourth wall and do _anything. _Wanna talk about how America is the most civilized country ever seen thanks to our Judaeo-Christian values? Solidify those suburban whites that are a little sick of all the whining? Nail evangelicals down? Endear yourself to the wavering right? This is a perfect time to do it _and _threaten SA to get their shit together if they want to keep getting propped up by us. More on that relationship in the international section. 

4- The president once again took a shit on his intelligence agencies. Read the statement linked above. "Maybe he did! Maybe he didn't! We may never know!" (NARRATOR VOICE): But he DOES know. 

The CIA told him the fact of the matter. There's a tape he won't listen to because he doesn't have the stones. For a guy that "really loves the IC", he takes every shot he can to say, "I don't trust you"  and undermine them in the most public way possible. It's almost like he _doesn't _trust the IC because he refuses to speak out against anyone that treats him well (like the country that he visited first as president) regardless of truth. 

He could have fixed that problem here, too. Or at least established that he was trying to fix that perception. Instead, he went 180 out and basically said, "Fuck the CIA. They weren't there, so who knows?" I am sure that MBS denied any involvement strongly, which really seals the deal for the president, at least as far as international adversaries are concerned.


International Gains-
1- We are the stronger partner in the relationship with SA. We can diplomatically affect a human rights violator of the highest regard just by talking tough which seems right in this administration's wheelhouse. "Stop doing all this shit, or we stop doing business with you. Everyone else, take notice." We essentially just used a shit ton of tarriffs on China for moral reasons (reciprocity and treating each other fairly is a moral argument that led to economic outcomes), but we want to ignore SA because it would "ruin the economy"? Economy is just fine. Use this to our advantage  and get a BIGGER arms deal. Get MORE out of SA in the region. This isn't your friend we are making a business deal with, they're an international theocracy we tolerate because they're useful, which means, every negotiation we should be going at their necks. 

I don't know why everyone forgets this is the country that aided the 9/11 hijackers. They're a shitty country with better PR and hit the geographical lottery cause oil that we need. Why we treat them with kid gloves I will never understand. Why we don't absolutely destroy them in every trade and arms deal is another head scratcher.


Bottom lines-

1- If you only care about American citizen human rights; if you don't want to be the world police anymore; if the good behavior of allies isn't necessary to you for international economic dealings; if you don't want other countries to emulate our values and be better themselves; if you want to put America First in it's most literal senses; if you feel like we can't action on these issues because "we do the same things"; that's totally fine. I think you're wrong, but that doesn't really matter. We should use our position as the world leader in damn near everything to make others be better, because we are the greatest country in the history of mankind. We should not circle the wagons and shut the borders and pretend like other countries' actions won't eventually affect us here if we don't intervene in some ways.

2- The president needs to handle international politics, issues on race, issues on women and issues with the press better. He needs to win those middle ground votes and this isn't the way you do that. I understand this "might just be a soundbite", but it could be so much more and even naive ass regular joes (me) can see that. I want the administration to be better or they're not going to get re-elected.


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## SaintKP (Nov 22, 2018)

@amlove21 you're fine because I'm completely unable to respond in an effective and or coherent manner at this time, this will be a placeholder for now until tomorrow.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 22, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> @amlove21 you're fine because I'm completely unable to respond in an effective and or coherent manner at this time, this will be a placeholder for now until tomorrow.


Bonus points for knowing one's limitations and not 'posting while drunk'!


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## amlove21 (Nov 22, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Bonus points for knowing one's limitations and not 'posting while drunk'!


Right?! 

Hear ye hear ye, only
Funny memes and weirdly.               Spaced

Replies when drunk! No serious talk. 

Kidding. Thanks for being a good dude. We might all be ok when the sun rises tomorrow, after all.


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## SaintKP (Nov 22, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Bonus points for knowing one's limitations and not 'posting while drunk'!



Momma raised no fool, except when past a certain abc%.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 23, 2018)

So in response to @amlove21 when it comes to morality.

Jamal isn't an American.  He is a Saudi citizen, whom was also a member of the Muslim Brotherhood.  Murder, is wrong.  So whilst I can be mad, not outraged, because outrage needs to be saved...although in our peak outrage culture we have to be outraged about everything.

We have arms deals with the Saudis, we are dependent upon them to keep the spice flow so that the commodity price is within a certain price point.  And our oil companies would love it if they stopped flooding the market because they make the most money when the average price per bbl is between 90-110.  When it gets over 110 the price at the pump gets kind of insane.  So there's my political reasons for why we should have completely ignored the situation.

Now, my personal opinion has already been displayed.  This dude had blood on his hands.  The best way I can describe this is the folks at home don't really get annoyed at gang violence until it touches their woodchip box (since you know sand is dangerous these days).  And I've also clearly stated that this is just Turkey and Saudi Arabia going at it and we shouldn't put our dick in between them.  Erdogan, whom he became cozy with is a clear enemy of his former employer. [Erdogan has continuously rounded up journalists and non-loyalists since the failed coup attempt]  This is legit like being a Blood and then joining the Crips, he's been a marked man for a very long time.  Now, my question goes to: what did the Saudis have on him that he willingly went to a place where he'd never leave freely from again (smarter to have taken him in chains and tried for treason in KSA).

It goes to my prevailing opinion that we should have never been involved in Syria.  

Now let's address the way the POTUS has handled this: like with many things, a complete flub up on the old twatter.  So in effect we have wasted political capital here.  

And why I've said publish the evidence?  Don't go to the media and open channel this crap: "We have the evidence".  Either send it to your allies and take their response, or publish it.  I know @policemedic has stated I don't have the right to it.  Of course I don't.  That's not my point.  I'm also not a freak and I really don't want to and won't listen to it.  But for the most part this has all been kabuki theater.  Kind of like red lines and stuff.


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## AWP (Nov 23, 2018)

No one would care about Turkey and Saudi if it wasn't for their strategic location and resources. Venezuela is heading towards a famine and where is that outrage? How many thousands have already died and how many will die because of that government? We're expected to lose our minds over one dead journalist?

I've read the entire thread, read both sides, and I still don't understand why this is even a discussion.


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## Kraut783 (Nov 24, 2018)

I like the discussion as it pertains to the legal challenges/issues, from an analytical standpoint. 

I was more outraged when two countries used weapons grade WMD's to kill targets in public places in foreign countries.....one having collateral damage of innocents, but those two incidents were not in the media lime light that long and North Korea and Russia have just ignored the accusations.


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## amlove21 (Nov 25, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> I like the discussion as it pertains to the legal challenges/issues, from an analytical standpoint.
> 
> I was more outraged when two countries used weapons grade WMD's to kill targets in public places in foreign countries.....one having collateral damage of innocents, but those two incidents were not in the media lime light that long and North Korea and Russia have just ignored the accusations.


That's interesting. Can I ask why? Isn't that essentially the same thing- one state killing members of that state? 

We know Russia and NK have WMD; if we aren't the world police, and (I am not saying this is your stance) we don't care about humans getting killed as long as they aren't American humans. shouldn't we ignore those two as well?


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## amlove21 (Nov 25, 2018)

AWP said:


> No one would care about Turkey and Saudi if it wasn't for their strategic location and resources. Venezuela is heading towards a famine and where is that outrage? How many thousands have already died and how many will die because of that government? We're expected to lose our minds over one dead journalist?
> 
> I've read the entire thread, read both sides, and I still don't understand why this is even a discussion.


I think at this point it's 2 things- a moral/ethical question that doesn't need to be explored any more (if you don't care about the person getting murdered for whatever reason, then there you go), and a misstep by the administration to capitalize on political gain. 

If you don't care about 1 human, I can understand why you don't care about any number of humans in any other space- Venezuela, Yemen, Africa, Chicago, etc. 

So with that out of the way, the only real issue worth talking about is how poorly the admin handled it domestically. But if that horse isn't dead, it's fucking close.


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## Kraut783 (Nov 25, 2018)

I have never said lives don't matter if they aren't Americans, I have put my life on the line for non-Americans...I have never said Saudi Arabia was not wrong for killing Jamal Khashoggi. I just don't wish to get into a political debate on how we should be reacting or not reacting, I don't think my thoughts, or the worlds thoughts, are going to change how the Saudi Royal family thinks or does business.


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## amlove21 (Nov 26, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> I have never said lives don't matter if they aren't Americans, I have put my life on the line for non-Americans...I have never said Saudi Arabia was not wrong for killing Jamal Khashoggi. I just don't wish to get into a political debate on how we should be reacting or not reacting, I don't think my thoughts, or the worlds thoughts, are going to change how the Saudi Royal family thinks or does business.


Ok- I didn't mean you specifically, I was referring to the overall bend of the thread in regards to state sponsored murder. 

Thanks for taking the time to respond.


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## 757 (Nov 26, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> Neither the Islamic State or AQ is a sovereign country....we weren't talking about the morality of the act (State sanctioned murder)  but the treaties/laws that were used/abused to allow it to happen.



Check.

As for my previous question about treaties and laws being different, when I asked the question I was thinking about it within the American context with regard to treaties becoming federal law according to our Constitution, not the world at large. Sorry for being unclear.

As for your question about what treaties this may violate, the only one that immediately jumps out to me as a viable option is the Vienna Convention on Consular Relations, of which both Turkey and SA are, currently, signatories.

Realistically, I doubt that Turkey wants to rock the boat with the Saudi's, especially with the current state of their economy.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 23, 2019)

🤔 

Trusting Saudi Arabia as I do, I’m confident they are executing the people directly responsible for the decision of his death. Saudis sentence 5 to death for Jamal Khashoggi's killing


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## Box (Dec 23, 2019)

I'd wager that one of the crimes these 5 cats are guilty of is having additional details of the incident.  In their situation they are probably part guilty and part loose-end
Gotta tie up all the loose ends in a case like this.

They should sentence all five of them to a 24/7 suicide watch at the Metropolitan Correctional Center


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 23, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> 🤔
> 
> Trusting Saudi Arabia as I do, I’m confident they are executing the people directly responsible for the decision of his death. Saudis sentence 5 to death for Jamal Khashoggi's killing



I think they got the guys, because they knew who the guys were.  They put them on trial, declared them guilty.  But they will execute 15 petty criminals that are being held instead.  Those responsible if they didn't have titles got a title, a new name, and a raise.


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## Gunz (Dec 23, 2019)




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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 24, 2019)

The whole thing is so orchestrated; it makes me feel dirty just reading about it. 

White House praises Saudis for death sentences in Khashoggi's murder
This is an important step in holding those responsible for this terrible crime accountable, and we encourage Saudi Arabia to continue with a fair and transparent judicial process,' a senior administration official told DailyMail.com.

But the two most senior Saudi officials implicated in Khashoggi's death, including a former top adviser to Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, who's the de facto ruler of the country, were cleared of wrongdoing.

Additionally, the court ruled Khashoggi's murder was not premeditated, which is the argument pushed by Prince Mohammed's government.


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## GOTWA (Dec 24, 2019)

This is where SA WITSEC takes pictures of the bodies with ketchup all over the place, gives them a new home, and a ton of money to never return.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 24, 2019)

Solid editorial from my local paper.

A 'mockery' in the Khashoggi case. EDITORIAL  |  A 'mockery' in the Khashoggi case


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Dec 26, 2019)

From the Dec. 23 article: "Khashoggi, who was a resident of the U.S., had walked into his country's consulate on Oct. 2, 2018, for an appointment to pick up documents that would allow him to marry. He never walked out, and his body has not been found.

*A team of 15 Saudi agents had flown to Turkey to meet Khashoggi* inside the consulate. They included *a forensic doctor, intelligence and security officers and individuals who worked for the crown prince's office, according to Callamard's independent investigation*....The 101-page report released this year by Callamard, the U.N. special rapporteur for extrajudicial, summary and arbitrary executions, included details from the audio Turkish authorities shared with her. She reported hearing Saudi agents waiting for Khashoggi to arrive and one of them asking how they would carry out the body."

That's some crazy shit...

And now: "Saudi Arabia initially offered shifting accounts about Khashoggi's disappearance. *As international pressure mounted because of the Turkish leaks, the kingdom eventually settled on the explanation that he was killed by rogue officials in a brawl*."

Well....there we have it...

Really fucked up that our gov't would look the other way. Can't wait to buy an electric car.


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## DA SWO (Dec 26, 2019)

BlackSmokeRisinG said:


> From the Dec. 23 article: "Khashoggi, who was a resident of the U.S., had walked into his country's consulate on Oct. 2, 2018, for an appointment to pick up documents that would allow him to marry. He never walked out, and his body has not been found.
> 
> *A team of 15 Saudi agents had flown to Turkey to meet Khashoggi* inside the consulate. They included *a forensic doctor, intelligence and security officers and individuals who worked for the crown prince's office, according to Callamard's independent investigation*....The 101-page report released this year by Callamard, the U.N. special rapporteur for extrajudicial, summary and arbitrary executions, included details from the audio Turkish authorities shared with her. She reported hearing Saudi agents waiting for Khashoggi to arrive and one of them asking how they would carry out the body."
> 
> ...


What should Trump do?
It happened on Saudi Territory, to a Saudi citizen, by the Saudi government.


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## Gunz (Dec 26, 2019)

They can do whatever the fuck they want and we can't/won't do shit about it because 10.05-million bbl/day.


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## DA SWO (Dec 26, 2019)

Gunz said:


> They can do whatever the fuck they want and we can't/won't do shit about it because 10.05-million bbl/day.


We don't need their oil anymore.
Which is another reason to bring folks home.


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## Kraut783 (Dec 26, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> We don't need their oil anymore.
> Which is another reason to bring folks home.



Agreed...."America *produced* 18% of the world's *oil* last year, compared with *Saudi Arabia's* 12%, Russia's 11% and Canada's 5%. As a result, the United States *produced* more *oil* than it imported in 2018. ... During that 10-year period, *U.S.* crude *oil* exports have increased 69-fold to 2 million barrels per day." Why the U.S. is less dependent than ever on Saudi oil

While it's not all about oil, we need to stop saying that it is.


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## Kraut783 (Dec 26, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> What should Trump do?
> It happened on Saudi Territory, to a Saudi citizen, by the Saudi government.



It's not like the US ever murdered a US citizen, living in a non-combatant theater, denying the person due-process....right?


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## GOTWA (Dec 27, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> It's not like the US ever murdered a US citizen, living in a non-combatant theater, denying the person due-process....right?



Anwar al-Awlaki filed for citizenship divorce and it was granted with prejudice.


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 27, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> We don't need their oil anymore.
> Which is another reason to bring folks home.


Au Contraire.  We do, not for consumption, but for market stability.


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## CQB (Dec 30, 2019)

Amarco have floated on the stock exchange, that’s telling. (Sorry...a little off topic). As for the death sentence: a first class trial of the usual suspects follows by a first class execution. BTW, I thought the bugging of the embassy/consulate was pretty cool, otherwise ...


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 16, 2022)

Our current president is beyond an idiot. This ME tour was meant to bolster support and gain some blue chips with our "allies" in the ME. But he has said so much shit that will degrade every relationship we have in the region. How are we not talking about invoking the 25th or impeachment?


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1548047203800780806


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## AWP (Jul 16, 2022)

And just like that Saudi and the UAE pivoted towards China. Don't get me wrong, the UAE in particular was already moving in that direction, but damn...

Iran is rubbing one out right now.

I'd call this trip an abortion, but those are illegal-ish now. Stillborn? Expectations rose faster than inflation, but clearly had information that could lead to the arrest and conviction of Hillary Clinton? What a liquid shitshow of foreign diplomacy.
---
A good friend of mine is an Obama acolyte. BHO did so much good for this country that was ruined by Trump, BHO is one of the best presidents our country has ever had, blah, WTF.

Of the 4 Dem. presidents in our lifetime, he considers Biden to be worse than Jimmy Carter. He stutters when I ask him what he thinks of Kamala.

Sometimes I think the only thing holding the Democratic party together is a hatred of Republicans. Hell, Trump gave them another decade, maybe 2, of unity.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 16, 2022)

AWP said:


> Sometimes I think the only thing holding the Democratic party together is a hatred of Republicans. Hell, Trump gave them another decade, maybe 2, of unity.


I was going to jokingly say that Trump was the Dems’ 9/11…but I bet if I go Google later, I’m not the first say that.


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## amlove21 (Nov 18, 2022)

Oh, word?

Biden Breaks Promise To Hold MBS Accountable For Killing Journalist, Shields Him From Lawsuit | The Daily Wire


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 18, 2022)

Real Politik


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 18, 2022)

Difficult for me to understand why anyone with even a modicum of intelligence, is skeptical of pretty much anything their government tells them. 🙄


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## DA SWO (Nov 18, 2022)

amlove21 said:


> Oh, word?
> 
> Biden Breaks Promise To Hold MBS Accountable For Killing Journalist, Shields Him From Lawsuit | The Daily Wire


He's the King of Saudi Arabia, who doesn't give a shit what a US based Judge says or does.  This would be no different the Biden being sued over misdeeds done by us.

It was a stupid promise, and if his supporters believed it; then, that's on them.

Biden's entire political career has been one off the cuff remark after another.  He was rarely held accountable, and now his gaffs have consequences.


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## Gunz (Nov 18, 2022)

Not to mention decades of kissing Saudi ass as standard policy even when it's politically uncomfortable and even embarrassing.


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