# Police Designated Marksman Program



## Nikolai308 (Dec 20, 2015)

I am looking to gather information to set up a designated marksman program (DMP) at my police department.  Are there any good books I should read?  If anybody has information on courses of fire, weapons set up and optics and want to send it my let me know and I will contact you with my police department email. 

Thanks,

Nikolai308
Sanford PD - Maine


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## x SF med (Dec 21, 2015)

Um, a quick Google search set up a 20 page return, for training, Industry Journal discussions, and blogs...  Here
That's a good start on getting things together, and subscriptions (online or paper) to the various industry journals would be a good start, maybe attending a few of the LEO trade shows too.

That's my .o2, I'll let the LEOs on the board take over.  @Cabbage Head , @policemedic, @Centermass???


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## Centermass (Dec 21, 2015)

snipercraft 

Being a member of the NTOA has advantages as well if you're not yet a member.


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## policemedic (Dec 21, 2015)

What precisely do you mean by designated marksman?  In the Army, that term has a very specific meaning and I don't think that duty position is relevant to LE work.  Snipers are absolutely relevant, necessary, and very much appreciated but that's a completely different conversation.


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## Grunt (Dec 21, 2015)

I'm with @policemedic...everyone in my unit has a rifle and we are all trained with it at various distances. What is a DM as it relates to LE? 

I've been in the game for a good while now and never heard of it...sounds like a unit trying to make something that isn't necessarily needed. 

Do you have limited amounts of rifles and only issue them to certain people (units)?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 21, 2015)

There was some PC crap floating around a few years back about LE using the word "Sniper" as a official position or on a training cert (I think it was more patrol car lawyer than anything). Police Marksman and Designated Marksman are used as substitutes of the word Sniper, kinda like how DoS WPS uses Defensive Designated Marksman to classify their Snipers.

nikolai308, what you should really look at is using an association or contract school for initial training of any of your agency people, and than develop a sustainment program internally. Several reasons for this, but a big factor is resources and liability. You can do alot in sustainment and or 'advanced' training, but its always better to have people go through a basic course that is well documented and accepted in the community. I agree with Centermass on NTOA, also plenty of State and Regional association's that will offer the credibility and resources. Some will even assist you in development of an in house course.

Also, check with the ARNG, ANG and federal agencies, as many times they have free training available to local LEA's where you can attend training at no cost outside of travel/lodging expenses. Some also have sustainment programs that are free as well. 

It might save you some heartache with the brass in your agency, if you focus on saving them money vs building them a killer program that the agency can't afford to run. Trust me, I've built a few of them, there is no need to reinvent the wheel.

That said, give me specifics of what you're looking for and I'll do my best to get it to you or point you in the right direction.

My$.02


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## Loki (Dec 21, 2015)

PM your way


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## Nikolai308 (Dec 22, 2015)

Thank you all for the responses and ideas.  I am not looking to re-create the wheel just looking to give some of the patrolman an enhanced capability to accurately engage targets out to 150 yards.  The chief is not looking to get rid of his sniper (me) but in this changing world a SRT cannot be on standby 24 hours a day.  Looking to fill that void between an urban rifle and sniper.

Just looking for course of fire, weapons set up/optics, eventually I will have to present some thoughts/ideas to the Chief.  I want to be able to present a couple of different options.   My work email is nsnichols@sanfordmaine.org


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 22, 2015)

Bolt gun or semi auto?

308 or 223, or oddball?


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## Nikolai308 (Dec 22, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Bolt gun or semi auto?
> 
> 308 or 223, or oddball?



semi - 223


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## policemedic (Dec 23, 2015)

Nikolai308 said:


> Thank you all for the responses and ideas.  I am not looking to re-create the wheel just looking to give some of the patrolman an enhanced capability to accurately engage targets out to 150 yards.  The chief is not looking to get rid of his sniper (me) but in this changing world a SRT cannot be on standby 24 hours a day.  Looking to fill that void between an urban rifle and sniper.
> 
> Just looking for course of fire, weapons set up/optics, eventually I will have to present some thoughts/ideas to the Chief.  I want to be able to present a couple of different options.   My work email is nsnichols@sanfordmaine.org



Now I understand what you're trying to do. It's bad juju, and here's why. 

First, there is no reason a SWAT team cannot be on call. You may not have enough guys working to constitute a full team on any given shift because your agency is small but that is what cell phones, recall rosters, and mutual aid agreements are for. 

There is no reason a well-trained rifleman on an AR cannot make a good shot at 150yards.   If your patrol guys can't make hits at 150 they should not have a rifle.  This also brings up the issue of where do you think they'd have to engage at that distance?  I've done the math in my AO, which is urban. I know where my long shots may be, because we've pre-planned high-risk locations. 

BUT there are two primary issues and a host of secondary, tertiary and quarternary ones. 

LE sniper shots are usually within 100 yards.  Same-same for sniper/observer OP locations.   

This is important because even at that short distance sniper teams have excellent optics to fulfill their intel gathering function. The problem with making a a shot at 100yds or more in LE is not so much the marksmanship piece but the decision-making piece. That is to say, your optics have to be good enough for you to determine your target needs to be shot. You must be able to articulate how and why your target, who is more than a football field away, was about to cause death or serious bodily injury when you pulled the trigger. And your equipment will be a huge factor here, because the naked eye can't make out sufficient detail at those distances to make that decision unless the bad guy is shooting at you.  Doing it with iron sights or an Aimpoint is not an option. 

Therefore, your patrol cops would need better optics than a 3x flip away magnifier. And unless you want them constantly pointing a rifle at something, they need either a spotting scope or (preferably) a spotter.  In my city, we coined a saying. "Don't scope the pope."  You can imagine where that came from and why. 

Depending on the optic you choose, you are likely to degrade their ability to use that rifle at CQB and short distance. And truth be told that's where they'll earn their money. 

How often are you going to let these guys train?  It  would have to be an enhanced training schedule relative to the non-DM patrol cops. 

If you do this, you'll end up with a few specially equipped cops who will be trained better than their fellows but not to the level of a fully qualified sniper. Problem is, you'll be deploying them as baby snipers until a real sniper can arrive.   

In a civil lawsuit you will be spending an exorbitant amount of time, money, research, expert witness fees, and testimony trying to make the jury understand the difference between your designated marksman (which as has already been pointed out is a term used in some agencies to denote snipers) and a real sniper.  At the end of the day,  the jury may understand the difference but decide that if a real, schoolhouse trained sniper was on the gun things would have been different. Verdict for the plaintiff. 

I could go on and on. 

For my money, train another sniper/observer team or arrange for proper mutual aid coverage. Taking half-measures is not going to solve your (perceived) problem and will guarantee headaches down the road.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 23, 2015)

I fully agree with policemedic on the patrol rifle vs trained sniper/observer team, specifically in the areas of liabilities and justification. However, I also think dependent on your location, having a "enhanced patrol riflemen" capability may have some merit.

I've got a full on response, filled with opinions and reference information I will try to finish and post between tomorrow and the end of the week.


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## policemedic (Dec 23, 2015)

I'll add this thought to what I posted above. 

I'm completely unfamiliar with your AO, but if it's sufficiently rural that 150yd shots are likely, then every officer with a rifle must be trained and qualified to make that shot (with documentation backing it up). That shouldn't be a problem but if they haven't demonstrated the ability to do something that can be reasonably expected of them, that's pretty much the definition of deliberate indifference. 

I also wonder where the 150yd distance came from. 

@Cabbage Head ... Any thoughts?


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## Cabbage Head (Jan 2, 2016)

Late to the party.  My bad.

My questions would be: are you just looking for optics for rifles to make more accurate shots over distance, looking to have an immediate response to hostage takers or the best of both?

I know guys that have a 3X flip up optic behind their red dots on their patrol rifles to make better shots over distance.  All that gives them is an even larger 2 - 4 MOA dot over distance. 

The ROE's for LEO"s are way to strict to allow for anything other then precision shots.  If your department is just wanting its Officers to be able to hit more accurately on center mass, then go with a magnifier to help the red dot. Me, I had an Aimpoint and used the flip up magnifier on a competition. Hated it, sold it as soon as I got home. All I saw at 200y was an even larger dot covering the target (even when I turned down the brightness of the red dot). Personally, I felt better using my iron sights.

I know guys that use fixed power Trijicon sights on their patrol rifles. Some have a red dot on top of the Trijicon to use for CQB. This poses another issue. As now you switch from a cheek weld on your stock to a chin weld due to the raised red dot on top. For CQB they run with a chin weld and when a precision shot is needed they switch to a cheek weld. All good with training and practice.

There are some good optics that are magnified 1 – 4X that gives a LEO a good option for the distances that most departments would have to engage a suspect. We have had engagements on armed offenders on my current team that are only around 50 – 60 yards. In one case I was told by one of the shooters that with his optic on his sniper rifle at 4X that he couldn't see the gun on the suspects hand as he exited a building (engagement distance was only from across the street). An entry guy shot him with a M4.

Was at a debrief of a shooting that occurred (don't remember where) where the snipers needed something other then the typical rifle scope to handle a closer in shot.  They then built up a short barrel semi-auto .308 with a 1 – 4X scope.

Departments are starting to do more with less lately. Patrol is constantly being called upon to handle situations where the option to wait for SWAT is no longer there (can you say Columbine?).  Some departments are giving their Officers access to shields, rams and other entry gear without any training in how to use them.  Crazy!!!

Shoot me a PM with your contact info and I will be happy to talk to you.

Lets be careful out there!!!!


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## Cabbage Head (Jan 2, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> There was some PC crap floating around a few years back about LE using the word "Sniper" as a official position or on a training cert (I think it was more patrol car lawyer than anything). Police Marksman and Designated Marksman are used as substitutes of the word Sniper, kinda like how DoS WPS uses Defensive Designated Marksman to classify their Snipers.



Ya, my team uses Marksman/Observers as our official title.  Changed whenever I can when use sniper.......


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## MicShawnBon (May 12, 2016)

policemedic said:


> I'll add this thought to what I posted above.
> 
> I'm completely unfamiliar with your AO, but if it's sufficiently rural that 150yd shots are likely, then every officer with a rifle must be trained and qualified to make that shot (with documentation backing it up). That shouldn't be a problem but if they haven't demonstrated the ability to do something that can be reasonably expected of them, that's pretty much the definition of deliberate indifference.
> 
> ...


Hey brother, check out CenterMass Inc's Designated POI (as opposed to their Basic Police Sniper Course). They have their outlines uploaded in PDF form so you can compare the differences. That could then be used as your subject areas of study. Just a thought.  Stay safe.


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