# New D book



## RetPara (Feb 1, 2008)

Former Delta officer’s book to shed light on Tora Bora

By Sean D. Naylor - Staff writer
Posted : Friday Feb 1, 2008 5:34:38 EST

The Delta Force officer who commanded U.S. ground forces hunting Osama bin Laden at Tora Bora in late 2001 will publish a book in October that he promises will explain how the al-Qaida leader managed to slip through the grasp of the United States.

But the author’s plans have put him on a collision course with U.S. Special Operations Command, which he says is threatening to take him to court for revealing classified information.

The author, who spoke on the condition his identity not be revealed, wrote the book under the pseudonym Dalton Fury. At the time of the hunt for bin Laden in the mountainous region of Tora Bora in eastern Afghanistan, Fury was a major commanding a Delta Force troop, and was placed in charge of an additional Delta troop (for a total of about 40 Delta operators) plus assorted other special operations elements at Tora Bora.

It is now generally accepted that bin Laden was present at Tora Bora after fleeing Jalalabad ahead of the allied advance that toppled the Taliban government, but escaped the assault on his mountain stronghold, despite a massive bombing campaign and attacks from allied Afghan militias and U.S. and British special operators. The failure to capture or kill bin Laden at Tora Bora later became a focus for critics of the Bush administration’s handling of the war against al-Qaida.

Fury, who had prior enlisted service as an infantryman, retired in 2005 as a major and decided to write a book about Tora Bora, motivated by a desire to honor the troops who served with him there “and to tell the truth.”

“There have been so many Democratic jabs about it being done with proxy forces, with just maybe U.S. forces advising,” Fury said. “No one has ever really talked about [how] it was the U.S. Delta Force and the SBS [the British Special Boat Service] that were actually in the mountains when the Afghans were leaving every night … So you left Americans behind the lines by themselves.”

Fury said he told his troops when they left Tora Bora, “this is going to become a big deal in the future.”

“Of course everybody looked at me like, ‘No it’s not,’” he recalled. “We all assumed at the time that bin Laden would be caught in a week, a month, a year, and [Tora Bora] would be a minor footnote. But it’s become [so symbolic] of major strategic failure… that I thought the operational positives and the tactical success that we had needed to be told … to the public.”

Fury said the book will also explain how bin Laden managed to escape.

“From my perspective as the ground force commander and what I’ve learned since then, I think we have a pretty good handle on the steps, the missteps, the decisions made and the actual actions that were taken that led him to get out of there,” he said.

The book, which Fury has already written, is tentatively titled Kill bin Laden and will be published by St. Martin’s Press.

But Fury’s plans to publish the book have drawn the ire of Delta’s two higher headquarters – Joint Special Operations Command, which runs the United States’ most secret special operations missions, and U.S. Special Operations Command.

Fury said that, as required by the agreement he signed when he left the unit and retired, he sent Delta a copy of his manuscript for security review.

“They came up with a list of redactions of items they thought ought to be taken out,” he said. “I told them I would honor every one of those. However, they were never ever given to me.”

Delta’s higher headquarters apparently intervened, according to Fury. “It’s not Delta’s fault,” he said. “It’s their higher command – JSOC and SOCOM have the say. And they … collectively decided not to provide me with any detailed redactions after a year of trying through my attorney.”

“All I got back was responses [reminding me of] my commitment to the classified information agreement that I signed … [and] basically threatening to possibly take me to court over this.”

Fury said that after SOCOM “stifled it,” he sent the manuscript to the Defense Department’s Office of Security Review.

“OSR failed to respond in any timely manner at all, after numerous requests from my attorney.

“The comment that SOCOM made was that the sensitive information was so thoroughly woven into the manuscript that any attempt at detailed redaction would be literally impossible. They chose not to do it.”

“We did receive a manuscript from [the author] for security review,” said SOCOM spokesman Army Col. Hans Bush. “The manuscript did not pass security review because it was found to contain classified information. We notified [the author] through his lawyer last fall. To date this remains unresolved. “We are still willing to work with the author in the even he resubmits a manuscript that does not contain classified information.”

Fury chose to write under a pseudonym in part to guard his family’s security, and in part to pre-empt any criticism from within the special operations community that he was engaged in self-promotion.

“In that environment, any self-promotion from unit time is frowned on by everybody,” he said. “And I’m not writing this for my personal glory. The vehicle is kind of about my personal experience, but to fill the book I had to have some of that in there because there wasn’t enough about just the battle. But it was important to me that my buddies don’t see this as ‘the [Dalton Fury] show.’”

Fury is also keen to demonstrate that he’s not cashing in on his time at the unit. His small advance from the publisher barely covers his legal fees, he said.

After getting no response from Delta to his offer to donate his proceeds from the book to the unit’s fund for survivors of fallen unit members, Fury arranged to give the bulk of any further money he makes from the book to the Special Operations Warrior Foundation, which provides scholarship grants to the children of special operators who were killed in the line of duty.

He said his efforts have not gone unnoticed by the rank and file in Delta (the full name of which is 1st Special Forces Operational Detachment – Delta). While there are some in the unit who have expressed disagreement with decision to publish the book, many others have come out in favor, according to Fury.

“There are numerous people that are completely against it, whether they were my best friend or not, they’re against it, and I respect that, but there’s an awful lot of folks that I hear from all the time, whether it’s through a buddy, a covert e-mail, or whatever about them being 100 percent supportive behind it.” he said.

“Now, the guys that are out who were at Tora Bora, to a man, have been 100 percent supportive.”

The author, who now works as a security consultant, has also established a Web site to promote the book: www.daltonfury.com. The home page features a photograph of a Delta operator at Tora Bora.


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## pardus (Feb 1, 2008)

I want to hear about the story (how true that is or whether its indeed true or not) that the SBS were right up Bin Ladens ass and were told to stop and allow US forces to take over and get him therefore allowing him to get away.


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## 8'Duece (Feb 1, 2008)

Another Eric Haney ?? When are rites to the movie being sold ?? 

The fact that he's willing to give the money to the SOWF may save him from the embarrassment that Eric Haney has recieved. 

I'll probably read it non the less.


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## Crusader74 (Feb 1, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> I want to hear about the story (how true that is or whether its indeed true or not) that the SBS were right up Bin Ladens ass and were told to stop and allow US forces to take over and get him therefore allowing him to get away.




Pretty Sad if in fact that is True.. I don't think the Guys would have minded if The US SOF guys got Credit even if he was caught by the SBS.


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## AWP (Feb 1, 2008)

Interesting. I'll get a copy if it ever sees the light of day.


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## Titus Pullo (Feb 1, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> Another Eric Haney ?? When are rites to the movie being sold ??
> 
> The fact that he's willing to give the money to the SOWF may save him from the embarrassment that Eric Haney has recieved.
> 
> I'll probably read it non the less.



I read Haney's piece of crap but this one sounds more self effacing, instead of being about his experiences it sounds more like it is about the units experiences as he tells the story. Since has volunteered to donate the proceeds it certainly does not sound like he is in it for the personal glory or the money but rather to make sure that all the warriors who were there, especially the D-Boys, are not left holding the short end of the stick for failing to capture Osama.


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## The91Bravo (Feb 1, 2008)

I will also pick up a copy ASAP(ublished)


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2008)

Count me in  :) Some of the profits are going to the Special Operations Warrior Foundation - one more reason to buy it !


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## RackMaster (Feb 5, 2008)

It will be interesting to read, if it gets published and after it's cut to pieces.


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## Ravage (Feb 5, 2008)

Pix PIX PIX !


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## Swill (Feb 5, 2008)

I'm confused about why he's writing this book. I haven't walked in the man's shoes, but I can't see how this is ok. He's writing the book because he is...



> motivated by a desire to honor the troops who served with him there “and to tell the truth.



This implies that they were dishonored publicly... which they weren't. I don't know what happened on the ground, but neither does anyone else whose opinion of those events doesn't matter. So why go public? I'm just not getting it. I can certainly empathize with a man going to great lengths to protect his brothers. But what's to protect as far as the public is concerned? There ain't exactly a public confidence problem with his old unit. As a crusty old SOB said to me once, "This don't jive."

Besides, isn't part of being a member of a unit that doesn't officially exist mean that you forego setting the public record straight?



> No one has ever really talked about [how] it was the U.S. Delta Force and the SBS [the British Special Boat Service] that were actually in the mountains...



Isn't that the point?

Getting a pen name, making a point of telling everyone about your terribly expensive legal fees, and donating the bulk of future money (whatever that means) to SOWF screams one thing: "I know what I'm doing is wrong, but I don't want you guys to think bad of me."

I'm not going to buy the book.


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## x SF med (Feb 6, 2008)

The guy sounds like an asshat, kinda like Haney...   Look what I did, but I'm classified...

Bullshit.  I won't buy it, and I didn't buy Haney's crap book either.


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## 0699 (Feb 6, 2008)

I can't speak for the author, but I've found the easiest way to deal with classified stuff is to not talk about it.

If you don't talk about it, you can't inadvertantly reveal it.  It's called OPSEC...


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## SpitfireV (Feb 6, 2008)

If it's strictly about the battle, what's OPSEC? Take out any references to specialised equipment or specific intelligence and you've got your typical book about a battle in a war.

He does say he had to fill in space, but just make the book shorter if that's the case. 

If the book is about a fuck up that let OBL get away, then the story needs to be told if not only for history's sake. Just because it could cause embarrassement to the higher ups especially doesn't mean it should be censored.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Feb 6, 2008)

SpitfireV said:


> If it's strictly about the battle, what's OPSEC?



Methods, techniques, tactics for starters.  Of course, I have no clue what he wrote about so I can't say much.


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## SpitfireV (Feb 6, 2008)

You can write about a battle without going too indepth into those things. 

IMO, the story needs to be told. Not really the tactical "the second man of squad four took cover behind rock number 567 on the map provided" type narrative but really the overall "squad four moved around the hill" type narrative.


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## Crusader74 (Feb 6, 2008)

Shadowspear Members are Banned from Reading it!! lol


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## Ravage (Feb 6, 2008)

Bann me 



























I kid, I kid !


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## Swill (Feb 6, 2008)

SpitfireV said:


> You can write about a battle without going too indepth into those things.
> 
> IMO, the story needs to be told. Not really the tactical "the second man of squad four took cover behind rock number 567 on the map provided" type narrative but really the overall "squad four moved around the hill" type narrative.



First, I want Hajj knowing nothing 'bout how we fight. NOTHING. A lot can be inferred from a "clean" narrative. Kinda hard to prevent that, especially with the amount of media coverage there is today, but why serve it to them on a platter? Particularly when it comes to those guys.

Second, why does the tactical narrative "need to be told" to the public? Is there a lessons-learned value in it that can be useful to future military leaders? Sure. But why introduce it into pop culture? No one is alleging that anything illegal or immoral was done. There's no great injustice or evil deed that needs to be righted. So, again, why the need for Joe Q public to get a taste? The answer is obvious. 

Lastly, wanna take a guess at how many military operations take place the details of which will NEVER see the light of day? There's no need for that info to be public, just as there's no need for this one to be. Remember, we aren't talking about the 82nd or the 101st.


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## car (Feb 6, 2008)

Irish_Army01 said:


> Shadowspear Members are Banned from Reading it!! lol



LOL!  Back when I was a PFC a book came out called "The Puzzle Place." It was hyped as the inside book about NSA - No Such Agency. Well, the agency immediatey sent a classified message to all associated commands/units/activities stating that the book had been published, what it was about, and that anyone in the SIGINT community was to, if asked, *neither confirm nor deny* any knowledge of the National Security Agency. No shit! This was in '82, I think.

Of course we all went and bought the book. It was shit. Mostly about the physical layout of the building, a roster of past directors and deputies, mudane shit. The only interesting part was about how the agency was stood up under authorities of the National Security Act of 1947, and some the "crazy ideas/stupid" shit the agency did in the early days. Like building a *huge* dish antenna in West Virginia, in a natural basin, that could collect RF signals from Earth that were reflected off the moon. :doh:

The actual goodness that came out of _that_ silliness was the establishment of the National Radio Astronomy Observatory in Green Bank, WV. http://www.gb.nrao.edu/ 

It's actually about a 1/2 hr drive from my place at Snowshoe. ;)


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## Swill (Feb 6, 2008)

car said:


> Like building a *huge* dish antenna in West Virginia, in a natural basin, that could collect RF signals from Earth that were reflected off the moon. :doh:




Next you'll tell me that there are no UFOs at Area 51 and that George W. Bush didn't personlly ride a missile into the Pentagon on 9/11.

Hijack over.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 6, 2008)

It's clear that this guy is doing what he's doing for one reason- self-aggrandizement.  Look who he went to for this story.  Anyone recognize the name Sean Naylor?

If he does publish ANYTHING that compromises ANYTHING classified, my sincere hope is that not only is he PNG'd from the community, he's prosecuted and tossed under the jail.

So he's donating the proceedes to the Special Operations Warrior Foundation?  Big fucking deal.  If was really going to do the community a favor, he wouldn't be generating this type of negative attention for us or threatening to divulge a bunch of stuff he knows is still classified.  I guess it's good he's planning to donate to a charity that supports the families of fallen special operators... it's not outside the realm of possibility that what he divulges could add to their rolls.


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## DD37 (Feb 6, 2008)

Sean Naylor is a fairly well known freelance military writer, writes for Army Times. He has written pretty extensively about various SOF topics. My unit got to pick him up at some Shura in Afghanistan and drive him around a bit. Seemed like a decent guy for a journalist. 
 I don't know the authors deal but I can say that sometimes things can get done that otherwise wouldn't due to divulging otherwise "classified" info. How many "unnamed sources" do we read about putting out info for IO purposes?  It is no secret that being a risk taker is not commonplace in the upper echelons of the DOD. I am guessing that this guy wants to clear the air and assign the blame on mission failure to the men who direct these operations as opposed to the men who are actually carrying out their wishes on the tactical level. He is writing the book under a psyeudonym so self promotion seems to not be the motivating factor. I guess time will tell........


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## Rabid Badger (Feb 6, 2008)

car said:


> LOL!  Back when I was a PFC a book came out called "The Puzzle Place." It was hyped as the inside book about NSA - No Such Agency. Well, the agency immediatey sent a classified message to all associated commands/units/activities stating that the book had been published, what it was about, and that anyone in the SIGINT community was to, if asked, *neither confirm nor deny* any knowledge of the National Security Agency. No shit! This was in '82, I think.
> 
> Of course we all went and bought the book. It was shit. Mostly about the physical layout of the building, a roster of past directors and deputies, mudane shit. The only interesting part was about how the agency was stood up under authorities of the National Security Act of 1947, and some the "crazy ideas/stupid" shit the agency did in the early days. Like building a *huge* dish antenna in West Virginia, in a natural basin, that could collect RF signals from Earth that were reflected off the moon. :doh:
> 
> ...



I'm gonna write a book about my adventures that I may or may not have done, under a pseudonym (but everyone will really know it's me). I'm gonna lie, expound and throw a whole lotta 3 letter acronyms out there, AND THEN I'M GONNA TELL EVERYONE NOT TO BUY IT....because it has a lot of secret shit in it no-ones supposed to know. 

Car will buy one, what about the rest of you-uns?  ;);)


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## car (Feb 6, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> I'm gonna write a book about my adventures that I may or may not have done, under a pseudonym (but everyone will really know it's me). I'm gonna lie, expound and throw a whole lotta 3 letter acronyms out there, AND THEN I'M GONNA TELL EVERYONE NOT TO BUY IT....because it has a lot of secret shit in it no-ones supposed to know.
> 
> Car will buy one, what about the rest of you-uns?  ;);)



I'll even write the "super-secret" Foreword, if you want. ;)


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## Rabid Badger (Feb 6, 2008)

*LMAO!!;);)*


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## RackMaster (Feb 6, 2008)

You want an International Allied edge to it?  I'll throw in something if you want. lol ;)  I'll make up some fucked up stamp and you can use it to stamp all your pages.  What are we going to call the classification?


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## Rabid Badger (Feb 6, 2008)

We can throw some cross-border ops in there, maybe a trip to SA/CA.....hmm

How about *'CTONFYE'* (Counter Threat Operations-Not For Your Eyes)

HAHAHAHAA....my pockets are feeling full already.... ;);)


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## car (Feb 6, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> We can throw some cross-border ops in there, maybe a trip to SA/CA.....hmm
> 
> How about *'CTONFYE'* (Counter Threat Operations-Not For Your Eyes)
> 
> HAHAHAHAA....my pockets are feeling full already.... ;);)



Or one of my favorites - *NONT *- NCO Only, No Troop.


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## Rabid Badger (Feb 6, 2008)

*SSS-NOMK *(Secret Squirrel Stuff-No One Must Know)


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## car (Feb 6, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> *SSS-NOMK *(Secret Squirrel Stuff-No One Must Know)



I actually have a coin from a CI/HUMINT unit, in theater right now, that has Secret Squirrel as their logo. :)


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## RackMaster (Feb 6, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> We can throw some cross-border ops in there, maybe a trip to SA/CA.....hmm
> 
> How about *'CTONFYE'* (Counter Threat Operations-Not For Your Eyes)
> 
> HAHAHAHAA....my pockets are feeling full already.... ;);)





car said:


> Or one of my favorites - *NONT *- NCO Only, No Troop.





razor_baghdad said:


> *SSS-NOMK *(Secret Squirrel Stuff-No One Must Know)



LMAO!  They are all golden.  You should use all of them.  Switch it up now and then mid paragraph.


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## SpitfireV (Feb 7, 2008)

"Hajj" could find out all those things from your Field Manuals that are freely available to download. In fact, IIRC, some of the Al Qaeda manuals are based on those very things. 

There is an allegation of an injustice. If they really did make the SBS hold off purely so an American unit can go in first, that really does need to be told. The American people (nay, everyone), has a right to know why the number one fugitive in the world got away. If it's for a silly little thing like that, I want to know why. You can leave out all the tactical stuff, but finding out why a particular unit moved, say, left instead of right could be integral to the overall narrative. 





Swill said:


> First, I want Hajj knowing nothing 'bout how we fight. NOTHING. A lot can be inferred from a "clean" narrative. Kinda hard to prevent that, especially with the amount of media coverage there is today, but why serve it to them on a platter? Particularly when it comes to those guys.
> 
> Second, why does the tactical narrative "need to be told" to the public? Is there a lessons-learned value in it that can be useful to future military leaders? Sure. But why introduce it into pop culture? No one is alleging that anything illegal or immoral was done. There's no great injustice or evil deed that needs to be righted. So, again, why the need for Joe Q public to get a taste? The answer is obvious.
> 
> Lastly, wanna take a guess at how many military operations take place the details of which will NEVER see the light of day? There's no need for that info to be public, just as there's no need for this one to be. Remember, we aren't talking about the 82nd or the 101st.


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## Paddlefoot (Feb 7, 2008)

car said:


> I actually have a coin from a CI/HUMINT unit, in theater right now, that has Secret Squirrel as their logo. :)



Morocco Mole is the real brains behind that operation. ;)

Coins seem to have taken off in the years since I've been in. As I recall, very few units/branches had them, with the exception of SF and Rangers. 

Then again, maybe my clearance wasn't high enough to be aware of those other coins. lol


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## Rabid Badger (Feb 7, 2008)

Paddlefoot said:


> Morocco Mole is the real brains behind that operation. ;)
> 
> Coins seem to have taken off in the years since I've been in. As I recall, very few units/branches had them, with the exception of SF and Rangers.
> 
> Then again, maybe my clearance wasn't high enough to be aware of those other coins. lol



Conventional finally realized that *ALL THAT BRASS *from the range can be used for 'other' things.....like *COINS*.....

But first ya gotta make friends with the *LOCALS*......so you can find someone who melts and molds.....

Hearts and minds.....It's been around for awhile now....... lolol :doh::doh:

(Conventional) saying ':doh::doh::doh:'


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## x SF med (Feb 7, 2008)

thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock

Gee, isn't that the sound of the black helicopters right overhead coming to get you guys?:confused::eek::uhh:


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## Rabid Badger (Feb 7, 2008)

x SF med said:


> thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock
> 
> Gee, isn't that the sound of the black helicopters right overhead coming to get you guys?:confused::eek::uhh:



Loved the sound effects....actually made me look up!!!...ahahahahaa

thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock thwock


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## Paddlefoot (Feb 7, 2008)

I didn't know that's where most of the metal for unit coins came from. 

They've definitely gotten more elaborate and colorful over the years, the SF coins I saw were fairly simple, no inlaid ceramics or anything like that.


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## Rabid Badger (Feb 7, 2008)

Paddlefoot said:


> I didn't know that's where most of the metal for unit coins came from.
> 
> They've definitely gotten more elaborate and colorful over the years, the SF coins I saw were fairly simple, no inlaid ceramics or anything like that.




We used the brass for coins, Iron Mikes.....LBG's in SA/CA can make anything you want.....and fairly cheap, too.....IF you speak the language and understand/abide by the customs.....which conventional has now realized it needs to do..... 'bout time.....:uhh::uhh:


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## car (Feb 7, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> We used the brass for coins, Iron Mikes.....LBG's in SA/CA can make anything you want.....and fairly cheap, too.....IF you speak the language and understand/abide by the customs.....which conventional has now realized it needs to do..... 'bout time.....:uhh::uhh:



My first coin is still my favorite - brass, beret and unit motto on one side, unit crest on the other.

You guys wouldnot believe some of the shit floating around out there now! Company commanders and First Sergeants have unit coins! :doh:

It's gotten so bad that there is actual regulatory Army policy telling who can give out coins, where the money comes from, and what can be said on them....but I've got a hell of a collection


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## pardus (Feb 8, 2008)

Paddlefoot said:


> They've definitely gotten more elaborate and colorful over the years, the SF coins I saw were fairly simple, no inlaid ceramics or anything like that.



Not that ive ever been awarded a coin but IMO the simple ones with out all the ceramics look best and are obviously harder wearing.  :2c:


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## 275ANGER! (Feb 8, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> are obviously harder wearing.  :2c:



????:confused:
They where talking about challenge coins.



Coin Check Bitches! ;)


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## pardus (Feb 8, 2008)

275ANGER! said:


> ????:confused:
> They where talking about challenge coins.



Well done, good to see you are keeping up with the rest of the class.  >:{

Ceramic chips, metal doesn't.

My point is lets see how well a coin in a pocket / wallet with ceramic lasts after 30 years...

I'll take metal.


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## 275ANGER! (Feb 8, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> obviously harder wearing.  :2c:



I was confused with your wearing them part, but gotcha!


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## pardus (Feb 8, 2008)

LOL, yeah wear and tear.


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## car (Feb 8, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> LOL, yeah wear and tear.



Hahahahahaha! Who said we all speak the same language?!


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## Crusader74 (Feb 8, 2008)

car said:


> My first coin is still my favorite - brass, beret and unit motto on one side, unit crest on the other.
> 
> You guys wouldnot believe some of the shit floating around out there now! Company commanders and First Sergeants have unit coins! :doh:
> 
> It's gotten so bad that there is actual regulatory Army policy telling who can give out coins, where the money comes from, and what can be said on them....but I've got a hell of a collection




We don't do the Coin thing, But I do have One:cool:. We each received one from ASP when we completed the ASP Instructors course, which was run by ASP instructors.

Its a nice coin:)


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## Crusader74 (Feb 8, 2008)

275ANGER! said:


> ????:confused:
> They where talking about challenge coins.
> 
> 
> ...



Since I'm not a Ranger, you won't be catching me for your regulatory pint coz i can't produce mine


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## Marauder06 (Feb 8, 2008)

275ANGER! said:


> ????:confused:
> They where talking about challenge coins.
> 
> 
> ...



Nice coin.  Here's one of mine:


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## Marauder06 (Feb 8, 2008)

car said:


> My first coin is still my favorite - brass, beret and unit motto on one side, unit crest on the other.
> 
> You guys wouldnot believe some of the shit floating around out there now! Company commanders and First Sergeants have unit coins! :doh:
> 
> It's gotten so bad that there is actual regulatory Army policy telling who can give out coins, where the money comes from, and what can be said on them....but I've got a hell of a collection



lol

I've had coins made up for three of the four units I've commanded, paid for them out of my own pocket because either a) I wasn't allowed to use unit funds for them, or b) if I were to use unit funds, I was severely restricted to who I could give them out to.


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## Paddlefoot (Feb 8, 2008)

Nobody ever gave me one. I've heard that the SecDef, President, Joint Chiefs and the like have coins that they give out when they go visit troops in the field or in hospitals.

Maybe I'll mint one of my own, based on the Army's old theme:

A Coin of One.


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## Ravage (Mar 27, 2008)

> Hello all, you are receiving this email because you are one of several thousand that submitted your address to be notified of any updates with the publishing of Kill Bin Laden (St. Martin's Press, 2008). Amazon.com just posted the book for pre-orders today with a release date of 30 Sep 08. You can reserve a copy by visiting  http://www.amazon.com/Kill-Bin-Laden-Commanders-Account/dp/0312384394/ref=gfix-ews-form
> 
> Please keep in mind a portion of the book's proceeds will go directly to the Special Operations Warrior Foundation that supports the surviving children of fallen special operators.
> 
> ...



For those interested :)


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jun 20, 2008)

Dalton asked that I add the following to the article on the main site, and I know that not everyone follows the info on there (and I don't typically report) so here you go:

Have something to ask the author of Kill Bin Laden? Email me your question at daltonfury@yahoo.com and I'll compile the top 10 at the end of each month and post them to the book's website with my answers. I'll place your name inside one of the boots I wore in Tora Bora and once a month, from June through September, I'll randomly draw a name. The four winners will receive a signed copy of Kill Bin Laden addressed to whoever you'd like. As always, please watch your OPSEC.
Have a good one!
DF


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## Marauder06 (Jun 20, 2008)

Boondocksaint375 said:


> ...The four winners will receive a signed copy of Kill Bin Laden addressed to whoever you'd like. As always, please watch your OPSEC.[/COLOR]
> Have a good one!
> DF




How ironic is that statement?


----------



## Viper1 (Jun 26, 2008)

Can someone read me in on the whole Eric Haney controversy? I knew he wrote a book about Delta but I've never read it and I want to know what all the hubub is about.

Don't these guys sign a statement of non-disclosure or something??


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## AWP (Jun 26, 2008)

I'm going from memory here and I'm sure there are others that can fill in the holes or correct me as needed.

Disputes have arisen over Haney's claim to be a founding member of Delta, I believe he was in the third class/ group to form. Some of the incidents in the book that he claims to have happened are different in the memories of other who were there. I recall reading on another board that the Keke Saenz story was a sheer fabrication or at best Haney got the person wrong. Either he or the publisher made claims of him being SF, but he never was; never had the tab or the old pre-tab "S" identifier. I know he's been PNG'ed from unit functions.

I'm sure there's more or I am wrong on some accounts as I am going off of memories from other boards and news articles. The book is well written and entertaining, I have no doubt that some of it is true. The problem is given the allegations concerning parts of the book what is or isn't true? I have no idea.


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## pardus (Jun 26, 2008)

It's a shame, considering the man has impeccable credentials anyway. :2c:


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## AWP (Jun 26, 2008)

Books like Haney's and Fury's are "mixed" in my mind. I signed a non-disclosure agreement and operate under one now. So part of me is outraged that these men chose to ignore that and publish their books.

As a citizen however, I wish more men would do the same. You look at the Enigma machine that the Nazi's used during WWII. Full details weren't disclosed until the 1990's (though SOME details were made public in the 70's)....this for a machine that was widely known in the world at that time, used by a nation that no longer existed and whose cyphers were amateurish by the standards of even the 1950's.

When you consider cover-ups, acts of incompetence, or outright crimes keeping security classifications isn't for the good of the country, but for the men and women who would otherwise be tarnished or even punished for their actions. I've seen the declassification dates on certain rather trivial documents in my years. If I'm lucky and my family's history of heart disease, stroke, and liver diease doesn't claim me then I just MIGHT live long enough to see some Cold War documents become public and MAYBE some from Vietnam. Hell, the Chinese disclosed a few weeks ago that they had a US POW in their custody, something that POW activists have claimed for years based upon reports and other documents. And they only admitted to ONE, not the hundreds that are alleged. I would be astonished if the Korean War POW issue was ever fully made public and I have zero hope of us ever learning the truth about Vietnam's POWs.

So, men like Fury violate their oath and make a buck off of it. We call people like this names. In the private sector if someone does it they are a "whistleblower" or even a cult hero for their bravery and willingness to buck the establishment.

I don't have enough secrets in my head to be a threat, but I'm sure there are men and women who do. At some point we need to be more objective about what secrets are revealed, how they are revealed, and who profits from them.

I love my country, but the people in power are some crooked sons of bitches. Loyalty or truth/ profit/ power (whatever the reason). Tough call in this day and age.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jun 26, 2008)

Haney's book was great, and it was one of those that I never wanted to put down. His memory is impeccable to remember all of those details.  I don't understand the SF controversy thing, as the unit has "Special Forces" in its name (ie. Special Forces Operations Detachment Delta).


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## Centermass (Jun 26, 2008)

Viper1 said:


> Can someone read me in on the whole Eric Haney controversy? I knew he wrote a book about Delta but I've never read it and I want to know what all the hubub is about.



Haney is a sellout. 

Seems like $$$$ these days will take what was once a loyal individual and turn them into one who's said one thing out of their mouth, and now something else is coming out of the other. 

Around here, they're known by another name.

2 faced sons a bitches. 

And it's neither just because of his book (although, there are known inaccuracies and embellishments in it) or his advising in Hollywood either. It has more to do with timing and statements that coincide with each.


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## surgicalcric (Jun 28, 2008)

Centermass said:


> Haney is a sellout...



And Dalton Fury (AKA Maj Thomas Greer) is no different IMNSHO.

Major Greer signed a non-disclosure agreement and now has decided to disclose what he sees fit to.  I could give two shits where he says the proceeds will be going or why he is writing the book...  Men who are doing what he once did arent doing it for the name recognition, or atleast the honorable ones; they do it because it needs to be done.  If he wanted to honor their memory he could have done it best by keeping his mouth shut.

Money has turned what would have appeared to be an honorable man into something different, but thats my opinion on the situation.  

YOMV!

This is far from over though.

Crip


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## Viper1 (Jun 28, 2008)

can the military prevent the published due to non-disclosure agreements?


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## pardus (Jun 28, 2008)

Freefalling said:


> Disputes have arisen over Haney's claim to be a founding member of Delta, I believe he was in the third class/ group to form.
> 
> Either he or the publisher made claims of him being SF, but he never was; never had the tab or the old pre-tab "S" identifier. .



IIRC...

Hanely was in the unit when it was initially stood up, so I guess technically he was in at the start.

He went from the Ranger Regt into Delta not via SF.


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## 8'Duece (Jun 28, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> IIRC...
> 
> Hanely was in the unit when it was initially stood up, so I guess technically he was in at the start.
> 
> He went from the Ranger Regt into Delta not via SF.



Haney was with Charlie Company, 1st/75th Ranger Batt. Then was selected to attend the Delta selection program. 

His first day was 14th of September, 1978.  

3 or 4th selection class ? Probably so.


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## Ravage (Jun 28, 2008)

So is it wrong for a person to buy maj. Greer's book ? despite the fact that he is depicted the same way sgt.maj. Haney is ?
Because even despite all the comments, small people like me are interested what really went down during op. Anaconda.
And the fact that some of the profits will go to the Special Operations Warrior Fundation.


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## pardus (Jun 28, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> Haney was with Charlie Company, 1st/75th Ranger Batt. Then was selected to attend the Delta selection program.
> 
> His first day was 14th of September, 1978.
> 
> 3 or 4th selection class ? Probably so.



Right that's what I thought, see alcohol is good for the brain 



Ravage said:


> So is it wrong for a person to buy maj. Greer's book ? despite the fact that he is depicted the same way sgt.maj. Haney is ?
> Because even despite all the comments, small people like me are interested what really went down during op. Anaconda.
> And the fact that some of the profits will go to the Special Operations Warrior Fundation.



The book's already out there.

My advice is to get the book for free/internet/library/borrow it.
Then write to the author, tell him he's a douche, then donate some money directly to the foundation.

:2c:


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## Polar Bear (Jun 28, 2008)

I will buy it, get the Author to sign it, and sell it for millions on EBay


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 28, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> The book's already out there



Can you post a link of where it can be found???:confused:


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## pardus (Jun 28, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> Can you post a link of where it can be found???:confused:



Sorry, meant that figuratively.

It's going to be out there if it already isnt very soon.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jun 28, 2008)

It comes out in October


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## Swill (Jun 28, 2008)

Dude signed a NGA therefore he is wrong. Are there extenuating circumstances that earn him the title whislteblower instead of, oh I don't know, criminal? Sure. Like ordering rape or execution of children. But what we have here is a disagreement over tactics/strategy. Boo-hoo.

No way I'm gonna reward this guy by buying his book. This is like buying OJ's book "If I Did It" knowing that he was going to profit from it (before the rights were awarded to the Goldman family).

P.S. When did his real name get outed?


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## Rabid Badger (Jun 28, 2008)

Swill said:


> Dude signed a NGA therefore he is wrong. Are there extenuating circumstances that earn him the title whislteblower instead of, oh I don't know, criminal? Sure. Like ordering rape or execution of children. But what we have here is a disagreement over tactics/strategy. Boo-hoo.
> 
> No way I'm gonna reward this guy by buying his book. This is like buying OJ's book "If I Did It" knowing that he was going to profit from it (before the rights were awarded to the Goldman family).
> 
> P.S. When did his real name get outed?



It's been out for awhile now...at least a year...

Keep in mind this is a very very generic NDA, but you get the picture.

Here's the deal for all non military who may be asking what an NDA is:



> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Non-disclosure_agreement
> 
> *Non-Disclosure Agreement*
> 
> ...



We all sign them and in rare, very rare cases, they are not adhered to.

Mr. Haney is one of those cases.

Rav, donate to the WWF.....it's a better cause. You already know as much as you're gonna find out in his book.

:2c:


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## Swill (Jun 28, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> It's been out for awhile now...at least a year...



That's what I get for getting all my news from shadowspear and theonion.com.  :doh:


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## car (Jun 28, 2008)

I'm reading "Killer Elite," which is the outing of yet another org that does or doesn't exist. Hainey is quoted extensively. Him and some other folks whose names I'm suprised to see. :doh:


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## Ravage (Jun 29, 2008)

Killer Elite on google books if anyone is interested.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 29, 2008)

car said:


> I'm reading "Killer Elite," which is the outing of yet another org that does or doesn't exist. Hainey is quoted extensively. Him and some other folks whose names I'm suprised to see. :doh:



SGM, I would like to know your thoughts on the book after you finish it... I am looking for a new book and being that I have to order and have them mailed, I am being picky!


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## car (Jun 29, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> SGM, I would like to know your thoughts on the book after you finish it... I am looking for a new book and being that I have to order and have them mailed, I am being picky!



K. WILCO. I'll tell ya right now that I've not read anything that I know to be false.

It's just that I'm amazed at how many folks "came out" and allowed themselves to be ID'd.

*A secret can only be kept by one person.* -- _some intel guy _


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 29, 2008)

car said:


> K. WILCO. I'll tell ya right now that I've not read anything that I know to be false.
> 
> It's just that I'm amazed at how many folks "came out" and allowed themselves to be ID'd.
> 
> *A secret can only be kept by one person.* -- _some intel guy _



Thanks, I look forward to reading your input… ;)


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## Rabid Badger (Jun 29, 2008)

Shitstorm has been brewing for awhile with Ranger Greer:



> http://communities.canada.com/ottaw...-about-bin-laden-s-escape-from-tora-bora.aspx
> 
> *The one glitch could be legal action from SOCOM *which is not too happy about all this. A command spokesperson said it is interested in continuing to work with Fury if he takes out the material SOCOM is concerned about. The main problem appears to be that the classified information is so embedded in the book it would be extremely difficult to remove.
> 
> According to Sean Naylor, Fury is also keen to demonstrate that he’s not cashing in on his time with Delta Force. His small advance from the publisher barely covers his legal fees, he said. He has also arranged to give the bulk of any further money he makes from the book to the Special Operations Warrior Foundation, which provides scholarship grants to the children of special operators who were killed in the line of duty.



:2c: :uhh:


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## soldiersystems (Jun 29, 2008)

I am not too surprised SOCOM is upset.  However, a book was recently published on the CIA's Office of Technical Service and in the forward they discuss very similar circumstances.  Initially the CIA's publication review board felt that almost the entire book was classified but after some negotiations it was determined that very little had to be omitted.  It will be interesting to see how this plays out although I have a hunch that it will be published with virtually no changes.  For SOCOM to really fight it, they will have to discuss the offending content in court and defend why it should remain privileged.


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## 8'Duece (Jun 29, 2008)

Since this thread started I am rereading Haney's book. "Inside Delta Force" 

He was the second selection class and spent 8 years with the unit. I don't know where he went from there. 

Eric Haney was also one of the OTC instructors.  In his book he has a picture of his Enlistment Evaluation Report (EER Form 2166-6) All his marks are "5's" which maxis out his overall score for the EER at that time. From 85-04-85-11


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## formerBrat (Jun 29, 2008)

I would agree, that it seems that if NDA's are signed, why violate them, is there something in the UCMJ that directly covers these documents?

I am asking as an outsider who has not served in the military. BTW, NDA's are common in a lot of civilian workplaces as well, whether it is civil service or business/technology. Granted, most of those are about proprietary business issues and not National secrets or possibly giving away tactical/strategic information.

To comment on the books mentioned in this thread so far. I have read Haney's book and as an outsider who wouldnt' know any better, it is a good read, but I also have since read all the backlash about his book and the issues with it. 

That being said, I have also read Delta Force by the late Col. Beckwith, and found it a great read as well. Did anyone have issues with him writing a book about his time with CAG/1st SOFD-D. I am asking because I have never heard anything like that about his book. I will say that he sounded like quite the character and a heck of an interesting guy. 

Killer Elite is another one I have read and found also interesting, but also wondered about it's accuracy since it's about another unit who's existence isn't really acknowledged. (please correct me if i'm wrong about this)


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 29, 2008)

In Side Delta Force by CSM Eric Haney (US Army Retired) was one of the books I read in 2004 in between missions. It took me all of a week while conducting mission to read, so yeah it’s a damn good book. IMO it was more of a biography then a book on Delta.

Things in the book that made me raise an eyebrow:

1.	His accounts of possible POW in Viet Nam.
2.	Accounts of operations in South America.
3.	Accusation of CIA and Military wrong doing in operations conducted in south America (his selection buddy being killed)
4.	His private contracting after leaving the military.

I also did not like how he advised the TV show the “UNIT” in regards to daily life and operation that may or may not happen. I also did not like the “mercenary” recruitment/ job after retirement add on…

In regards to the contracting, it is not that I disagree with contracting. I simply disagree with how it was portrayed in his book and in the TV show he advised…:2c:


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## Ravage (Oct 5, 2008)

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/02/60minutes/main4494937.shtml

(CBS) The man who led the Pentagon's mission to kill Osama bin Laden says the Afghan allies he was forced to use may have undermined his operation. He also tells correspondent Scott Pelley his superiors scuttled the most effective plan of attack against the al Qaeda leader. 

The former Delta Force officer, who uses the pseudonym "Dalton Fury," tells his story for the first time on 60 Minutes, this Sunday, Oct. 5, at 7 p.m. ET/PT. 

Ten weeks after 9/11, Fury and a team of U.S. Army Delta Force soldiers joined CIA operatives and Afghan fighters known as mujahideen under the command of a warlord named General Hazrat Ali, to whom the CIA paid millions in cash. The Americans and Afghans pursued bin Laden and an estimated 1,000 al Qaeda fighters into the Tora Bora Mountains, near the border with Pakistan. The U.S. strategy, says Fury, was to let Afghan allies do most of the fighting, while U.S. Special Operations Forces directed air strikes and provided support. 

The problem, according to Fury, was that Ali's mujahideen would attack up the mountain by day and retreat at night, giving up territory they'd won. Today, Fury wonders whether some of the supposedly friendly Afghans were really conspiring with al Qaeda. "The mujahideen would go up and get into a skirmish…lose a guy or two, maybe kill an al-Qaeda guy or two and then they leave…almost like it was an agreement…Put on a good show and then leave," recalls Fury, a retired Army major. 

As the U.S. and Afghan forces listened to bin Laden's radio communications, Fury noticed the Afghan's demeanor. "These guys in my opinion were more in awe of Osama bin Laden than they were willing to kill him," he tells Pelley. "…They could almost see him and feel his presence and they just stood there with wide eyes and somewhat in awe that here is the leader of the jihad…and they’re actually hearing his voice over the radio." 

Fury's soldiers continued their frontal assault on the Tora Bora mountainside battlefield by day, when Ali's mujahideen would rejoin them. But that's not the plan Fury thought would work best. "We wanted to come in on the back door." The initial plan to climb the mountain from the Pakistan side and surprise the enemy was denied. "Whether that was central command [or] all the way up to the president of the United States, I'm not sure," he says. 

Such a denial was unheard of, according to Fury. "In my experience, in my five years at Delta, never before." His superiors also rejected a plan to drop landmines from the air on bin Laden's likely escape route to Pakistan. 

At one point, Fury led a team deep into Tora Bora to rescue Americans who had come under fire. That rescue mission may have brought Fury as close as he ever came to bin Laden. But, it was night and Afghan allies had gone home. Fury was under orders to have Afghan fighters take the lead, and intelligence said bin Laden was protected by more than a thousand hardened fighters. Fury decided to postpone the attack until morning. 

"Had we gone up that ridgeline towards that location, Osama bin Laden may have been 500 meters away. We might have run right into him," Fury tells Pelley. In the book Fury wrote about the mission, Kill Bin Laden, he writes that his decision to abort that effort left him with the feeling he had let down the nation. In his interview with Pelley, he says, "It wasn't worth the risk at that particular moment to go up there and play cowboy." 

The next time Delta had a lead on bin Laden, they thought he entered a cave with about 50 men. The Americans called in every available bomb and bombarded the cave for hours. Fury believed they'd killed the al Qaeda leader at that time. When bin Laden released a video in 2004, Fury was disappointed. Now he believes, based on intelligence, that bin Laden was injured in the shoulder by shrapnel and then treated and hidden by local sympathizers. He escaped to Pakistan days later, perhaps by car. "He moved as far as he could and then got out and either walked across or was carried across into Pakistan, free and clear," Fury tells Pelley.


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## surgicalcric (Oct 5, 2008)

Blah, blah, blah...


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## Trip_Wire (Oct 5, 2008)

*Elite Officer Recalls Hunt For Bin Laden*

As seen on 60 Minutes tonight!

Elite Officer Recalls Hunt For Bin Laden

Delta Force Commander Says The Best Plan To Kill The Al Qaeda Leader In 2001 Was Nixed

The Hunt For Bin Laden
The officer who led the army's Delta Force mission to kill Osama bin Laden after 9/11 reveals what really happened in Tora Bora, Afghanistan, when the al-Qaeda leader narrowly escaped. Scott Pelley reports.

(CBS)*Shortly after 9/11, the Pentagon ordered a top secret team of American commandos into Afghanistan with a single, simple order: kill Osama bin Laden. It was America's best chance to eliminate the leader of al Qaeda. The inside story of exactly what happened in that mission, and how close it came to its objective has never been told until now. 

The man you are about to meet was the officer in command, leading a team from the U.S. Army's mysterious Delta Force - a unit so secret, it's often said Delta doesn't exist. But you are about to see Delta's operators in action. 

Why would the mission commander break his silence after seven years? He told 60 Minutes correspondent Scott Pelley that most everything he has read in the media about his mission is wrong and now he wants to set the record straight. 

Link

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2008/10/02/60minutes/main4494937.shtml


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## x SF med (Oct 6, 2008)

Dalton Fury is under censure from DoD, SOCOM, and the SOF community.  He has been declared PNG and is facing legal action for violating NDAs and revealing information of a sensitive nature in his book.  He has violated the trust of various units, and the SOF community as a whole.

I have done some in depth research and cannot condone his actions, nor the publication of his book (because it exposes others to possible capture or death at the hands of the enemy - which IMHO is treason).

Any unit with which this man has been associated in the past has turned their back on him for a violation of trust and honor - all in the name of personal gain.

Operations fail. Battles get lost. Good men die.  This is the way of war.  Secrets are kept. Feelings are quashed. And at some point we are allowed to bring them to light. This is the way of honor.

This is the end of my rant on this - you may do with it what you will.:2c:


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## Trip_Wire (Oct 6, 2008)

x SF med said:


> Dalton Fury is under censure from DoD, SOCOM, and the SOF community.  He has been declared PNG and is facing legal action for violating NDAs and revealing information of a sensitive nature in his book.  He has violated the trust of various units, and the SOF community as a whole.
> 
> I have done some in depth research and cannot condone his actions, nor the publication of his book (because it exposes others to possible capture or death at the hands of the enemy - which IMHO is treason).
> 
> ...



I would agree with all that you have said here. I have also read the threads on the PS website on this man and the issue. In the end, most there have come to the same conclusions on the man and his book, etc.

IMO, the really bad thing about these types of books, movies and TV specials, is there will be more and more of them, unless the proper authorities start taking punitive actions, against those that violate the written agreements they have signed, while serving in these SOF units.

My understanding is that this individual, never served as a Special Forces soldier and has a Ranger background, like CSM Haney, for what that is worth.


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## DoctorDoom (Oct 6, 2008)

car said:


> *A secret can only be kept by one person.* -- _some intel guy _



Old family saying:
How do three keep a secret?
One of the three kills the other two.  And then silences the heaven and the earth.

Didn't COL Beckwith write a book about SFOD-D?  What about all those book CMDR Couch writes about SEALs and everyone else?  They don't ssem to earn the derision that Haney does.

I'm asking because I don't understand.


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## x SF med (Oct 6, 2008)

DoctorDoom said:


> Old family saying:
> How do three keep a secret?
> One of the three kills the other two. And then silences the heaven and the earth.
> 
> ...


Both of those books were condoned and passed evaluation by DoD, and SOCOM - did not reveal any truly sensitive information, and were written long after the operations and the conflicts were reduced in classification.  No names of current members were ever revealed.


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## DoctorDoom (Oct 6, 2008)

I can see that; Couch's books largely are about training and selection, so that makes sense also.

I read Haney's book, it was ok, a bit self-aggrandizing.  But I was also under the impression that he was writing about events in the distant past, although I see how writing about actual operations understandably has no statute of limitations, as it were.

Seems like also there's the catch 22; people don't want the truth revealed, then call these authors to task for "embellishments" or "half-truths."  Then again, telling tales about one's own role while simultaneously revealing accurate operational details, I can see how the QP's would be displeased, to say the least.


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## AssadUSMC (Oct 6, 2008)

Lots of us here know lots of cool stuff not for public dissem.  It's kind of what makes our jobs interesting...  When guys start spilling the beans, wannabes all come out of the woodwork.

As for "running your suck", I think it's only good when it's a policy message other than a documentary.  For example, if Maj "Fury" wanted to effect changes in how ops are prosecuted, then establish bona fides as a unit guy, then proceed to say what/how he'd change it.


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## x SF med (Oct 6, 2008)

DoctorDoom said:


> I can see that; Couch's books largely are about training and selection, so that makes sense also.
> 
> I read Haney's book, it was ok, a bit self-aggrandizing. But I was also under the impression that he was writing about events in the distant past, although I see how writing about actual operations understandably has no statute of limitations, as it were.
> 
> Seems like also there's the catch 22; people don't want the truth revealed, then call these authors to task for "embellishments" or "half-truths." Then again, telling tales about one's own role while simultaneously revealing accurate operational details, I can see how the QP's would be displeased, to say the least.


 
Haney is also PNG in the SOF community.

Both Haney and Greer sold their honor for hollywood cash.  And using a lowercase "h" in Honor for them was intentional.

May the black helicopters hunt them both down and make them disappear.


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## 08steeda (Oct 7, 2008)

As someone who was always really interested in the Spec Ops areas and got to hang with a few of them, I find it interesting that there isn't some way that these traitors to the honor and integrity of those units don't get a free pass to Leavenworth. 

I forget what form it was, but the Air Force has one that everyone signs that is connected to a specific operation. In it, it states very clearly that if you violate that agreement that you are subject to immediate imprisonment. It has been a number of years now so I am a little foggy on it. Everyone referred to a 99 year waiver or something like it.

Wouldn't these author's have signed one too? It was a lot more than an NDA although the similarities certainly are present in both.

FYI - Here are a few of the coins I have collected:


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## Mooch (Oct 17, 2008)

Has anyone actually read the book?


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## lockNload (Oct 17, 2008)

I'm 135 pages into it and think it's a great book.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Oct 17, 2008)

I'm on page 10 (there is a long forward that includes the process it took to write it, why he wrote it, getting SOCOM to clear it, those who support it, are against it,  etc). I have school shit to read, so I pick it when I'm able.   So far it is really good.


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## Florida173 (Oct 17, 2008)

Imagine what it would be like if are military was more like the British as to not allowing pretty much anything into print


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## lockNload (Oct 17, 2008)

Florida173 said:


> Imagine what it would be like if are military was more like the British as to not allowing pretty much anything into print



You know how many books are out there on SAS? You have former SAS guys like Chris Ryan and Andy McNab that write books just the same....


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## pardus (Oct 17, 2008)

lockNload said:


> You know how many books are out there on SAS? You have former SAS guys like Chris Ryan and Andy McNab that write books just the same....



Have a look at when those books came out.

They are why the Brits clamped down so hard.


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## Ravage (Oct 17, 2008)

My coppy ships in next week, along with the new Navy SEALs book. Dang, not much time to read anything


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## car (Oct 17, 2008)

08steeda said:


> As someone who was always really interested in the Spec Ops areas and got to hang with a few of them, I find it interesting that there isn't some way that these traitors to the honor and integrity of those units don't get a free pass to Leavenworth.



It's called a Non-Disclosure Agreement - NDA. The Troll mentioned it in an earlier post in this thread.

I've noticed over the years, that DoD is selective about prosecuting violations of the agreement. Don't know why.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Oct 17, 2008)

car said:


> It's called a Non-Disclosure Agreement - NDA. The Troll mentioned it in an earlier post in this thread.
> 
> I've noticed over the years, that DoD is selective about prosecuting violations of the agreement. Don't know why.


 

Out of curiosity, who was the last to be prosecuted under it?  Any idea, anyone?


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## jordan (Oct 17, 2008)

Hanssen? Ames? Nicholson?


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## Boondocksaint375 (Oct 17, 2008)

jordan said:


> Hanssen? Ames? Nicholson?


 

I think they fall more under espionage laws.


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## car (Oct 17, 2008)

Boondocksaint375 said:


> I think they fall more under espionage laws.



Yep!


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## jordan (Oct 17, 2008)

Yea I know. I figured I would take a shot.

....they still violated the agreement.:)


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## car (Oct 17, 2008)

jordan said:


> Yea I know. I figured I would take a shot.



Trouble is, it's all tied together.

If someone "breaks the rules" of an NDA, there are grounds to go after them with federal charges for espionage shit. Not a bad idea, 'cause the penalties are stiffer.

But, somehow, the word doesn't get out that "that guy" violated his NDA - so it's (the NDA) not taken as seriously as it should be.


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## jordan (Oct 17, 2008)

car said:


> If someone "breaks the rules" of an NDA, there are grounds to go after them with *federal charges for espionage shit. Not a bad idea, 'cause the penalties are stiffer*.



It should be the death penalty. :2c:


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## car (Oct 17, 2008)

jordan said:


> It should be the death penalty. :2c:



“Whoever knowingly and willfully communicates, furnishes, transmits ... or publishes ... any classified information … concerning the communications intelligence activities of the United States … shall be fined not more than $10,000 or imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both.”  - Section 798 to the Espionage Act of 1917 (enacted by Congress in 1950)


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## lionheart (Oct 17, 2008)

seems like such a slim punishment for the potential damage espionage could cause to America.   :2c:


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## soldiersystems (Oct 17, 2008)

I think they don't bother because once he is retired they have two courses of action and both attract lots of attention.  They can call him back to AD and hammer him but if he is already a media person of interest it will be followed in the press, OR hand the whole thing over to a federal prosecutor and do it in federal court which will be a media circus.  Either way, they essentially conform that anything he disclosed is true.  And to be honest, the average federal prosecutor wouldn't even bother with it.

Unfortunately, they diminish the effectiveness of the NDA when the system fails to take action.


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## formerBrat (Oct 18, 2008)

You know, I stopped in the bookstore today at lunch and flipped through it, still haven't made up my mind yet whether or not to buy it. I saw the interview on '60 Minutes' and was aware of the book before hand. Part of me feels irritated, because of the NDA violation. Then a thought occurred to me, didn't this have to be vetted by SOCOM, not that it makes the NDA violation any less, but why would SOCOM give a thumbs up to books like these, or for that matter, various intel agencies if it plainly violates the NDA. I ask as a total outsider, and have to confess I have read other books such as Haney's, Col. Beckwith's, Michael Smith's, and I enjoyed all of them. As an outsider, it is an interesting peek, albeit knowingly looking through a glazed window (which is totally fine with me, I wouldn't want the wrong information being printed and violating OPSEC/PERSEC or compromising tactics, future missions. etc.).  Any thoughts pertaining to this?


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## SpitfireV (Oct 18, 2008)

x SF med said:


> Both of those books were condoned and passed evaluation by DoD, and SOCOM - did not reveal any truly sensitive information, and were written long after the operations and the conflicts were reduced in classification.  No names of current members were ever revealed.



How could Beckwith's book be vetted though, when it was a still unacknowledged unit? 

That's part of what I've considered the farce surrounding the old "Delta does not exist" parroting, but that's another thread.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Oct 18, 2008)

In the beginning of KBL, he says it has gone through the approval process with SOCOM, legal, and the SOCOM historians.....:uhh:


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## lockNload (Oct 19, 2008)

60 min has a 13 min video clip on KBL and interview a disguised Dalton Fury. It's from Oct 6th. It's interesting to see some video footage which complements the books and it's pictures.


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## x SF med (Oct 20, 2008)

08steeda said:


> FYI - Here are a few of the coins I have collected:


 
The "Special Forces Group" coin you have pictured is a bullshit coin.  It was bought here:
http://www.priorservice.com/spfochco.html  It is bullshit because it does not signify the group, and would get you laughed out of any SF gathering as a poser.  No self respecting SF Soldier would ever present that to anybody (unless he himself were a poser).


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## surgicalcric (Oct 20, 2008)

x SF med said:


> The "Special Forces Group" coin you have pictured is a bullshit coin.  ...No self respecting SF Soldier would ever present that to anybody (unless he himself were a poser).



Well said.

Crip


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## Marauder06 (Oct 21, 2008)

With the exception of the Night Stalkers coin (which I don't think I've seen before and is actually pretty cool), they all look like the coins you can buy in the checkout line at Clothing Sales.


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## 0699 (Oct 21, 2008)

Marauder06 said:


> With the exception of the Night Stalkers coin (which I don't think I've seen before and is actually pretty cool), they all look like the coins *you can buy* in the checkout line at Clothing Sales.



IMO, coins aren't that big a deal unless they're issued or given as a gift.  I only have a couple of coins I've bought and they were bought for very specific reasons.

Like, say, buying a SS coin...


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## Marauder06 (Oct 21, 2008)

LOL

I collect coins as a hobby.  I have several hundred, maybe even a thousand.  Most of them were given to me in the traditional fashion, but I've also bought or traded for several if they were particularly interesting or eye-catching.  

Out of all the ones I've "earned" over the years though, the one that mattered most to me is the one I got from GEN Petraeus this last rotation in Iraq.


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## x SF med (Oct 21, 2008)

0699 said:


> IMO, coins aren't that big a deal unless they're issued or given as a gift. I only have a couple of coins I've bought and they were bought for very specific reasons.
> 
> Like, say, buying a SS coin...


 
Agreed.  Mine were mostly from a unit I was in, attached to, or working with - or a specific organization -or in one case, a MoH recipient who decided to give me one, and then there is the ShadowSpear coin, a harbinger of evilness to ward off the likes of pyromaniacal Marines ...

Where's your match?  Huh?:confused:


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## 0699 (Oct 22, 2008)

x SF med said:


> Agreed.  Mine were mostly from a unit I was in, attached to, or working with - or a specific organization -or in one case, a MoH recipient who decided to give me one, and then there is the ShadowSpear coin, a harbinger of evilness to ward off the likes of pyromaniacal Marines ...
> 
> Where's your match?  Huh?:confused:



Next to my coin...

The urge to use it has been strong lately, but everytime I get ready to fire it up I just close my eyes, rub my temples and say "six months to retirement, three months to terminal."  It's become my mantra...


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