# .Fix Recon



## TheWookie (Jun 22, 2009)

Hearing things like this makes me want to re-enlist.  Semper Fi Marines - just though I'd share.


http://marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/06/marine_recon_062209w/

Recon-improvement plan pays off for Corps

By Gidget Fuentes - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Jun 22, 2009 7:00:46 EDT

CAMP PENDLETON, Calif. — They endured countless hours of swimming and finning in the combat pool and then in the open, cold ocean.

They covered miles with heavy combat packs over steep hills and sandy beaches. They fought strong ocean currents and big swells to drive and navigate their rubber boats.

In this class of newly trained and longtime infantrymen, all dreaming of becoming reconnaissance Marines, many questioned whether they had the grit to complete the grueling course.

So they were especially proud to step onto the School of Infantry-West parade deck June 12 for graduation ceremonies from the Marine Corps’ Basic Reconnaissance Course, after nine weeks of training by Reconnaissance Training Company. The Marines survived the course and earned the coveted title and 0321 military occupational specialty of a recon Marine.

The high tempo at the course reflects some of the successes in the Corps’ effort to rebuild and reshape its reconnaissance community, positioning it for ongoing wars and future combat operations. Known simply as “Fix Recon,” the effort to grow and evolve the Corps’ capability has been ongoing for a decade, but it may be finally drawing to a close.

The men of Class 05-09 are the Corps’ newest group of trained reconnaissance Marines and soon will report to an active-duty or reserve recon unit. About 600 Marines, and a few dozen Navy corpsmen, will graduate from the course this year — roughly 120 Marines won’t make it — entering a community that has grown exponentially since the war in Afghanistan began.

Fixing recon
In 2001, the Corps had roughly 550 billets for reconnaissance Marines. Today, that number has tripled and keeps growing, with the fiscal 2009 requirement for active-duty units at about 2,038, said Maj. Brian Gilman, the 0321 occupational field manager at Plans, Policies and Operations branch in Washington.

He said that figure is expected to increase slightly by 2012 as part of an initiative aimed at the Corps’ force reconnaissance capabilities and units.

“Fix Recon” began with a 1999 directive by then-Commandant Gen. James L. Jones to look at equipment, manning, training and other issues. After Sept. 11, deployments to Afghanistan and Iraq followed, along with the birth of Marine Corps Special Operations Command and the Corps’ growth to 202,000.

“There has been a lot of changes since ‘Fix Recon’ happened,” Gilman said. “We’ve had to adjust to that.”

Continual deployments meant more demands on recon and concerns about capacity issues, he said. Standing up MarSOC, for instance, shifted 26 percent of those assets away from the Marine expeditionary forces.

High retention has helped keep the Corps rolling. New recruiting initiatives — such as an upcoming program beginning in October that gives new recon Marines five-year orders so they can spend more operational time with their unit — should buy even more time.

The recon community is shaping up. The “Fix Recon” initiative is in the third and final implementation phase, as officials work on an assessment of ground recon capabilities for the Marine air-ground task force, a study that looks at capabilities the Corps will need 10 years from now.

The Marine Requirements Oversight Council is expected to get the initial capabilities document in September, he added.

Consolidated training
The health of the recon community hinges greatly on pulling enough well-trained men into the recon pipeline. One big change began two years ago, when the Corps decided to merge the East Coast-based Amphibious Reconnaissance School and the West Coast-based BRC into a single course at Camp Pendleton, housed at SOI-West under its Advanced Infantry Training Battalion.

Centralizing training at one location meant operational recon battalions no longer had to recruit and screen future recon Marines, enabling them to focus on training, preparing and deploying platoons overseas.

“We took that burden off of them,” Gilman said.

The Corps now has a single training syllabus and, officials note, a more consistent training pipeline for all recon Marines — whether active duty or reserve, or filling a billet at division recon, Force reconnaissance companies or MarSOC’s special operations companies.

“Standardization of training was definitely one of those concerns,” Gilman said.

At Camp Pendleton, the recon growth is perhaps felt most at SOI-West, where its Recon Training Company will train and graduate eight classes this fiscal year and where instructors are preparing to ramp up with a ninth class in 2010. In mid-June, the company was “triple stacked,” with three classes on deck as Class 05-09 headed into its final week.

It’s usually busy, as new students wait to begin their class while others spend weeks or months with one of the platoons, preparing themselves to meet the tough physical fitness standards to successfully screen for the course.

Newly graduated Marines assigned the 0321 MOS report to their recon unit ready for follow-on individual and unit-level training ahead of deploying, a benefit their operational units appreciate, said Col. Brennan Byrne, who commands SOI-West.

“The guy gets to the unit a vetted recon Marine,” Byrne said. “We’ve increased the operational deployability numbers. He will be a full-up round.”

The recon training pipeline will likely be expanded to include a Recon Team Leaders Course, which SOI officials hope to begin this fall with four classes each fiscal year, and eventually other courses for unit leaders.

“We now have the opportunity to train the force as you wish to see the force,” Byrne said.

Standards remain tough
While the syllabus has been tweaked, Byrne said, the standards have not been reduced.

“We’ve actually increased standards in a number of areas,” he said. “We’re taking the approach that we are building the basic recon Marine, we are building the team leader, and we are building the unit leader.”

Students must score at least 225 on the Physical Fitness Test by training day 21, get at least a first-class water safety qualification to graduate, and meet the standard for a 1-kilometer ocean swim and 8-mile hikes with 50-pound packs, among other requirements.

About three-quarters of BRC students are entry level Marines — recent infantry school graduates — and about one-quarter are junior Marines, including corporals and sergeants from noninfantry MOSs. Handfuls of Navy corpsmen hoping to become amphibious reconnaissance corpsmen also attend.

BRC graduation rates now average about 80 percent, a big improvement from the roughly 50 percent who graduated from the courses years ago. Instructors and leaders give much credit to their local initiative — Marines Awaiting Recon Training, or MART — created to prepare and mentor Marines and sailors readying to join a new BRC class or those students recovering from an injury or illness.

Despite the name, “It’s not a basic skills set. It is an advanced skill set,” said Capt. James Richardson, Reconnaissance Training Company commander. “You expect more from a reconnaissance Marine.”

So the Marines — many are privates first class, instructors noted — soon find out that more is expected of them from the get-go.

“They are calling in live-fire mortars in this course,” Richardson said. “That’s unheard of. Most men in the infantry, they’re probably corporals or sergeants before they get this opportunity.”

The training isn’t for the faint of heart. Even the third phase, which includes operating boats in the surf zone, can be taxing, sending at least one student in each class to the corpsman or the hospital.

Recon Marines, Richardson notes, will have greater responsibilities. One day, that recon Marine will be a team leader briefing a Marine expeditionary unit commander.

“He is absolutely responsible for that mission,” said Capt. Bart Lambert, BRC officer-in-charge. “Preparing him for that, that’s the goal.”

So the company established MART Platoon so students can improve their fitness levels before beginning the course. It works — about 90 percent in MART graduate from the course.

The platoon can tailor the training to help students with anything, even tying knots, said Richardson, who calls its four instructors the “unsung heroes.”

Many students, said chief instructor Sgt. Lynn Westover, don’t have enough strength and endurance for the long runs with heavy packs and often struggle to swim with combat gear and fins longer than two kilometers. The water piece is a tough nut to crack, instructors say.

Several Marines said the extra MART training and mentoring are huge.

“The instructors got us into shape. ... They encourage you,” said Lance Cpl. Gary Manders, 19, who improved his swim during three months at MART and saw his PFT score jump from 220 to 276.

Lambert said that BRC classes have averaged 260 by the training day 21, and recent classes hit 275. Three students tallied course records in the run (17:05), crunches (160) and pull-ups (45), he added.

“I didn’t know what I was getting into,” Manders said. “I was weak in all areas, especially the water.”

THINK YOU’VE GOT WHAT IT TAKES?
Considering a move to reconnaissance? Here’s what you need to know:

Getting in the door
To obtain the coveted 0321 military occupational specialty, Marines must graduate from the Basic Recon Course, taught at the School of Infantry-West’s Recon Training Company, Camp Pendleton, Calif. To get there, you must be a U.S. citizen fluent in English and meet a handful of other requirements, including:

• Score 105 or higher on your General Technical test.

• Have completed Infantry Training Battalion course, for enlisted Marines.

• Have a 3rd Class swim qualification. (You will have to reach 1st Class by the end of Phase 1.)

• Score at least 200 on your physical fitness test. (You will need a first-class score of at least 225 during Phase 1.)

• Have normal color vision and good eyesight — at least 20/200.

Once you’re there
The nine-week BRC has three phases:

• Phase 1. Four weeks. Focuses on a wealth of individual skills, including swimming, finning, rucksack hiking, land navigation, helicopter rope suspension training, communications and supporting arms.

• Phase 2. Three weeks. Focuses on combat patrolling with a mix of classroom and field training, including a nine-day exercise in full mission profiles.

• Phase 3. Two weeks. Held in Coronado, Calif. Focuses on amphibious reconnaissance, boat operations and nautical navigation.


Where you’ll go
Recon billets at Marine operational units include:

• 1st Recon Battalion, 1st Marine Division, Camp Pendleton.

• Force Recon Company, 1st Recon Battalion.

• 2nd Recon Battalion, 2nd Marine Division, Camp Lejeune, N.C.

• Force Company, 2nd Recon Battalion.

• 3rd Recon Battalion, 3rd Marine Division, Okinawa, Japan.

• 4th Recon Battalion (reserve), San Antonio, Texas.

• 3rd Force Recon Company (reserve), Mobile, Ala.

• 4th Force Recon Company (reserve), Alameda, Calif.

• Marine Corps Special Operations Command.


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## Jerick (Jun 24, 2009)

sick post


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## ritterk (Jun 24, 2009)

I read that article on the Marine Corps Times website today, now if only I could get into 4th Recon I would be more than happy to deal with the raised bar.  Right now, I can't even get a 0351 MOS school seat until FY10 because the unit I joined took such a long time to run me in the system and all of the available school seats filled up.


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## 7point62 (Jun 24, 2009)

MART was a great idea. Good article. This stood out for me, though:





TheWookie said:


> “They [PFCs & L/Cpls] are calling in live-fire mortars in this course,” Richardson said. “That’s unheard of. Most men in the infantry, they’re probably corporals or sergeants before they get this opportunity.”





All PFC and L/Cpl 03's need to learn this shit in SOI. It needs to be part of the AIT curriculum. Arty, gunship support, medevacs--this should be required learning for _all_ infantry MOS Marines, and not reserved for Recon trainee E2s and E3s. It's essential for small-unit combat in isolated AOs. I had to learn OJT and I did call up dust-offs and 155 as a L/Cpl. Anybody in your squad is a potential Last Man Standing. The guy next to you may have to call in your medevac. Better to learn it in a controlled environment.


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## TheWookie (Jun 24, 2009)

7point62 said:


> MART was a great idea. Good article. This stood out for me, though:
> 
> All PFC and L/Cpl 03's need to learn this shit in SOI. It needs to be part of the AIT curriculum. Arty, gunship support, medevacs--this should be required learning for _all_ infantry MOS Marines, and not reserved for Recon trainee E2s and E3s. It's essential for small-unit combat in isolated AOs. I had to learn OJT and I did call up dust-offs and 155 as a L/Cpl. Anybody in your squad is a potential Last Man Standing. The guy next to you may have to call in your medevac. Better to learn it in a controlled environment.



Good points and I agree, I read somewhere that the Corps is placing new emphasis on training young Marines on how to call for fire.  And instead of wasting time at NCO school teaching hours of close order drill they are changing some of the curriculum to put more of an emphasis on CAS.  Which is good because obviously 03's need to know this stuff, but I also think non-03s should be required to know at least the basics.


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## ritterk (Jun 24, 2009)

In MCT we spent about 10 minutes going over CAS and that was the only time it was ever covered throughout my four years active.  I think CAS is something every Marine should be taught to a proficient level; you never know when you might need it.  It would be horrible to be caught in a situation where you needed CAS but were unable to call it in.


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## Hitman2/3 (Jun 24, 2009)

Somethings in this article I agree with but a lot I don't.


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## 7point62 (Jun 25, 2009)

ritterk said:


> In MCT we spent about 10 minutes going over CAS and that was the only time it was ever covered throughout my four years active.  I think CAS is something every Marine should be taught to a proficient level; you never know when you might need it.  It would be horrible to be caught in a situation where you needed CAS but were unable to call it in.




Word. 

(Sorry if I've hijacked this thread with an infantry discussion.)

We came out of AIT with about 45 min of rudimentary tactical comm...the kind of instruction an 18-year old 03 has already forgotten after his first night in Tiajuana. 

All 03's need a good work-up in tactical comm/CAS and basic combat medical skills. They need to know how to pull the chain and find the vein.


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## masonea (Jun 26, 2009)

I don't remember going over any of that at MCT. Not to say that it didn't happen. I just don't remember. The only time I ever was taught that was a hip-pocket class on ship en route to the dust bowl in '03. Nothing like trying to learn something at the last minute.

Hitman 2/3- What points in the article do you not agree with? And what points do you agree with? 

I got out after 8 years in '07. But I am thinking about coming back in. Recon was something I had thought about often, but just never jumped. The time I did spend at Battalion was probably the most exciting and challenging time in my career. So I have been thinking about lat moving to 0321. But I know how in the guys looked at the non Crucible guys when they hit the fleet. Not sure if that may be the case with the standards for getting into BRC have changed. Any insight? Thanks.

(On a side note: Do you remember a guy named Kocher?)


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## ritterk (Jun 26, 2009)

I went through MCT in 01 right after 9/11 and now that I read your post it was actually call for fire, not CAS.   I am assuming that calling for fire is much different than calling for CAS, I definitely don’t' want people on here to think that I've done stuff that I really haven't; shit I'm just a pog, I had to beg and plead to get out of the wire while in Iraq.  For the radio class we were mainly just calling one another on the prc-119 while some Sgt. watched us.


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## masonea (Jun 26, 2009)

I understand. Like I was saying in my last post, I only remember practicing 9-lines, and Call for Fire.


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## Hitman2/3 (Jun 26, 2009)

masonea said:


> I don't remember going over any of that at MCT. Not to say that it didn't happen. I just don't remember. The only time I ever was taught that was a hip-pocket class on ship en route to the dust bowl in '03. Nothing like trying to learn something at the last minute.
> 
> Hitman 2/3- What points in the article do you not agree with? And what points do you agree with?
> 
> ...



The main problem I have with the article is the same problem I always have when it comes to "FIXING RECON" the people who are trying to "fix" it have no idea what they're doing. I don't know where the hell they're getting their advice from, but their decisions are not reflective of the suggestions or request of the operators. The only thing we (the operator) asked for before they started making all these changes is more unit funding, better gear, more school seats, and become a part of SOCOM or at the very least be allowed to operate at our full capacity. 

One thing that stands out to me is that the SOI CO being interviewed has either never served with a Recon unit, or is completely out of touch. The statement of “The guy gets to the unit a vetted recon Marine” shows how off the mark we've gone. There is nothing vetted about an 18 year old boot who's had 9 weeks of training. He's basically trained but it will take several months to a year in the fleet training and deploying to get a "vetted" Recon Marine, and years to get a well rounded Recon Marine.   

Another thing that stands out as just crap is the statement that SOI took the burden off of the Units by implementing MART and all and all made things better. The whole purpose behind the unit running an indoc and a RIP was so the UNIT not the Marine Corps could say yes "this guy will be an asset" or no "this guy is a liability". The Marine Corps is not the one who will have to operate with them, the operator in the unit is. When the units were running the selection process the odds of a shit bird squeezing through were pretty slim. For the most part Rip had small numbers and the instructors could closely watch them to see who was cheesedicking, who was putting out, who had an attitude etc. There was a dedicated section of guys who were getting out, and there for unable to train with a team, that handled the training and selection of potential candidates. You had vetted Recon Marines, most of whom were TL or ATL's saying "this guy will complete the mission", or "this guy can't or won’t." If the MART instructors were allowed to get rid of dead weight it would be fine but since they can't its not.

It seems like now all they care about is numbers. They see it as a good thing that the graduation rate has went from 50% to 80%. I would agree if the new 30% I've been seeing was as good as the prior 50%, but they're not, and the powers that be seem to care less. Like we always say quality not quantity. They've more or less turned BRC into a Recon factory where they have to meet a quota at the end of the day regardless of the quality, and that is unacceptable.

Bottom line is that if the Marine Corps want's quality Recon Marines who are physically, mentally, and emotionally capable of completing the missions it requires they need to understand and stick to the basic truths. You can't mass produce quality, quality is better than quantity, and you can't wait to build a quality product after the shit has hit the fan. 

I'd much rather have one Ferrari before the race than to have 10 station wagons afterward.:2c:


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## Hitman2/3 (Jun 26, 2009)

masonea said:


> I don't remember going over any of that at MCT. Not to say that it didn't happen. I just don't remember. The only time I ever was taught that was a hip-pocket class on ship en route to the dust bowl in '03. Nothing like trying to learn something at the last minute.
> 
> Hitman 2/3- What points in the article do you not agree with? And what points do you agree with?
> 
> ...




To answer your other questions. Yeah I knew Kocher back at 1st. And regardless of which course you go through or went through you've got to prove yourself on a daily basis. There are guys who have been around for years and labled shit bags, and there are guys who have just gotten here that are labbled as good to go. So other than the occasional conversation over beers of my class was harder than your class, nobody cares.


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## Cayenne6 (Jun 27, 2009)

7point62 said:


> All PFC and L/Cpl 03's need to learn this shit in SOI. It needs to be part of the AIT curriculum. Arty, gunship support, medevacs--this should be required learning for _all_ infantry MOS Marines, and not reserved for Recon trainee E2s and E3s. It's essential for small-unit combat in isolated AOs. I had to learn OJT and I did call up dust-offs and 155 as a L/Cpl. Anybody in your squad is a potential Last Man Standing. The guy next to you may have to call in your medevac. Better to learn it in a controlled environment.



     Very little of the radio procedure was taught in training. Mostly just learning how to operate it. The Recon school I went to was far different than what is now. It was a cut down, fast moving class to get us to Nam. Very little of what is taught today was taught then. It was mostly a glorified BITS which I think is what you call SOI. Nothing was covered in great detail. Swimming included only a few classes at the Horno pool. One was drown proofing where we bailed off the diving board with M-14 and full gear. We had to tread water for 45 minutes with the 14 held over our heads with one hand for 45 minutes. We could swap hands but it had to be a continuous motion. If an instructor thought we hesitated too long it was out of the pool and head for the grunts. That and PT sent a lot of guys to the grunts.
     The school didn't even guarantee us a Recon slot when we hit Nam. 22 of us went to Nam on a C-130 and all went to the grunts. 3 months later I was the last to transfer to 1st Recon. I didn't even know what Recon did until I hit the Bn.
     One month into the grunts I was handed a PRC-25 and told to operate it. I was a PFC responsible for calling in medivacs, fire missions, and anything else needed. The coordinates was figured out by the Squad leader or Plt. commander. Once I got to Recon I didn't have any formal radio training. Shit, everything was OJT. We had to learn everything on the run, literally. Didn't use the radio until I became a team leader. As a L/Cpl I was expected to do everything an officer did as a team leader. I learned how to talk directly to arty batteries, OV-10s, Cobras, 46s, and grunts. Just barely squeezed by in map & compass in the school so you might as well say I had to re-learn that. My radioman was an honest to God trained radioman. As a PFC he could do everything. He hadn't gone to the Recon school. Only two out of the 6 man team had gone to the school, myself and my Corpsman.
     One main thing I brought out of Nam was most of us weren't trained for what we did. Came a hair's breath of joining 4th Recon in San Antonio when I got out. I wanted to be an instructor so I could make sure guys were taught what was needed and what life was like in a real combat zone. Turned out what I knew wouldn't have helped very much because my kind of war hasn't been fought since. From what I understand, the Bn. was almost as unprepared for what it did in Iraq as I was. Also turns out that the way my team operated and fought wasn't really Recon either.
     Don't have any idea what Hitman 2/3 didn't agree with but if that's the way training is it's a good thing.

6


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## masonea (Jun 27, 2009)

Hitman 2/3- Thanks for the insight. I hadn't heard anyone's take on things from the inside yet. All I have are these articles, that someone told someone to write in a certain way to make themselves look good. I was with Kocher at 2nd in 2006, reason I asked. Good guy. Thanks again.


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## 7point62 (Jun 27, 2009)

I was under the obviously wrong impression that Recon _was_ running MART and therefore could drop candidates who didn't pack the gear.


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## Hitman2/3 (Jun 27, 2009)

7point62 said:


> I was under the obviously wrong impression that Recon _was_ running MART and therefore could drop candidates who didn't pack the gear.



Nope, 0321's are the instructors but SOI more or less makes the rules. For the instructors its SOI's way or the highway.


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## Hitman2/3 (Jun 27, 2009)

Cayenne6 said:


> Don't have any idea what Hitman 2/3 didn't agree with but if that's the way training is it's a good thing.
> 
> 6



With the article itself it’s all in my previous post. Talking to my buddies who are instructing down there and seeing the 10% go to 30% the reality of the school is far from the picture that the article paints. The school was fine under EWTGPAC and EWTGLANT. There could have been a few modifications but compared to the SOI model it was a lot better. 

If anything I would say they've hurt the community more than they've helped it. Its the equivilant of the Q course being under the Army Infantry School, obviously not to the same level but the same concept. Different mindset, and different goals. SOI produces numbers, BRC and ARS produced quality regardless of the numbers.


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## Pete S (Jun 28, 2009)

Hitman2/3 said:


> Nope, 0321's are the instructors but SOI more or less makes the rules. For the instructors its SOI's way or the highway.



I have an old buddy who is an instructor at ITB.

I guess the ropers (or whatever they're called now) don't have to run everywhere they go now. 
It starts with the small things.


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## fox1371 (Jun 28, 2009)

I won't claim to know to much about the topic...but a lot of friends of mine who are operators had a huge problem with Recon getting rid of the initial review board.  I've also been told that students going through BRC etc are no longer able to be kicked out...they have to either fail, or quit.  Of course there are always ways for that to happen.  From the impression that I've gotten, is that the Marine Corps may be moving towards quantity over quality.  Not that the new Recon Marines aren't making the cut or anything...but I think a lot of the older guys are having issues with the changes that were made.


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## Cayenne6 (Jun 28, 2009)

Hitman


      Way back when we weren't operators, vetted, or go on missions. We were team members, some Recon trained and some not, who went on patrols. Not trying to piss you off or make fun of the now-a-day terminology. I have the greatest respect for your generation. Just an example of change.
     Have no idea how I missed your explanation post. Guess I have to chalk it up to posting while on my first cup of "get me started". Having absolutely no knowledge of the school I have to take a back seat to those who know. At best I'm a product of my environment which is so far in the past it feels like the stone age of Recon. I can see both sides of the coin. The need to keep the qualifications strict to weed out the inferior stacked up against inexperience coming into a Recon unit because numbers have to be met. I see what it takes today to be Recon and wonder if I could toe the mark.
     When the Bn. hit Nam in 66 it was filled with nothing but highly trained Reconners. By Sept. 70 it was down to mostly warm bodies and ability to fire a 16. C, D, E, & 1st Force pulled out leaving us drastically undermanned. As guys who were left rotated out of country there were very few Reconners transferring in. Replacements mostly came from volunteers from the grunts. When we couldn't get them a rep from the Bn. would go to Freedom Hill and set in the movie theater until after the movie started. He'd get the movie stopped, introduce himself, then wait for the mass exodus. He would talk to the few who were left and end up with a couple volunteers. Getting non-Reconners would seem like a recipe for disaster or at the very least the performance of the Bn. would take a big hit but neither happened. What we did just naturally weeded out those who couldn't take the pressure. Surprisingly there were very few who got shitcanned or left of their own choosing. Out of that crowd came some damn good men who ended up great team leaders. Reconners and guys like me who were made Recon by the experience that took jungle fighting to a new level.
     It's not the one who runs the fastest, masters all the physical aspects, or possesses the best Recon knowledge. It's the dude with the mental aspect who can not be stopped who carries the day. I can only fall back on my experience. Circumstances not want to put me in Recon. Only reason I volunteered for Recon was I was stupidly hoping the war would be over before the school was out and I wouldn't have to go to Nam. Not bootcamp, training, or 3 months with the grunts changed me from being Jody back on the block. I didn't even willingly transfer to 1st Recon. I was given the choice between the DaNang brig and 1st Recon. I didn't get the want to until the last few days of that faunky 2 week RIP school at the Bn. Had something happen one hot afternoon that changed me so much that the piece of shit I was died completely and who I became was born. Even at that I fought the system. I had been pushed off the porch into a pack of big dogs then in just a few months pushed to the front. Once there I have never looked back. I became something that to me is more important than anything I will ever do in my life, a Recon team leader. I was privileged to lead better men than myself into combat while managing to have been undoubtedly the worst team leader in the Bn. by Recon standards.
     Guess this is my long winded way of saying that even though that school isn't what a combat hardened Reconner thinks it should be the guys who attend that school at least have the want to that will get them started. The school will teach them the basics and when they go through the next phases the weak will be weeded out. If not the Bn. will take care of most of them. There are always a few who slip through. 
     I am not disagreeing with you in any way. Just presenting the other side of the coin. Only time will tell how Recon will be affected. Just as the bootcamp you went through wasn't the bootcamp I went through and the bootcamp I went through wasn't the bootcamp of the 30's and 40's it's the finished product that matters. I have been privileged and honored to walk among men who stormed the beaches in the Pacific, have had lengthy visits with those who fought the bitter cold of Korea, walked and fought in the rice paddies of Nam with the grunts, booked and fought on high speed trails with Nam Reconners, and mingled with your generation. I see no difference in any of the groups despite the difference in training.

The 6
A one time 10 pecenter


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## Cayenne6 (Jun 28, 2009)

Pete S said:


> I guess the ropers (or whatever they're called now) don't have to run everywhere they go now.
> It starts with the small things.



   For years I heard how soft the Corps was getting. Bootcamp had become a cake walk. No more getting hit upside the head with either end of a rifle, being stuffed in a footlocker while a DI beats on the locker with a rifle butt, or having a DI jump up and down on your chest while you are flat on your back. Guess it started with the small things like those being removed from the training.
      In being a smart ass I'm just trying to show an attitude that has been around since the Corps began. Each generation is judged by the previous as not being as good. Reality is each generation grabs the baton of the previous generation and runs just as fast and sure despite the inferior training.
    All I'm trying to say is hold off judgment until you see what your next generation does. Bet a buck it will be just as badass as you guys.

6


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## Cayenne6 (Jun 28, 2009)

masonea said:


> I was with Kocher at 2nd in 2006, reason I asked. Good guy. QUOTE]
> 
> Masonea
> 
> ...


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## masonea (Jun 28, 2009)

Cayenne6

Yep, that's the guy. That's an awesome pic. Although, that must be from 05. He was a SSgt in 06 while deployed. I'm not even sure if I remember him being at the ball in 06. After we got back in Oct 06 he got out, and started doing that GK stuff. I remember when he stopped by battalion one day, full beard and all, asking if we had any expended AT-4's he could use for the set of GK. He's a pretty awesome dude, if you ask me. I remember when his truck got hit by an IED, and he had a cast on, and they wouldn't let him go on any missions till he was cleared by BAS. So he broke off the part of the cast around his hand, showed a Doc he could still shoot, and was cleared.


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## Cayenne6 (Jun 28, 2009)

masonea

      Time sure does book. I couldn't remember if it was 05 or 06. As usual, faced with a 50/50 choice I screw up. I stay corn-fused most of the time anyway. Enjoyed the time with 2nd and got a huge kick out of the ball. The C.O. was the speaker. It was the best speech I've had at any of the Balls I've been to. It really wasn't one. He just talked like we were all behind the barracks. He didn't mince words to spare the women folk either.

     Kocher's wife at the time emailed me when he got hit. She sent flicks of the truck. Amazes me he didn't get his health record closed out. The dude is riding a lucky streak.

     First time I met him was at the DC reunion in 04. Him and Eddie Wright were guests at the luncheon. It was my privilege to meet them outside and escort them into the luncheon hall. Both were recouping from the Bravo ambush when Morel was KIA. Didn't talk to him much that day but during the next year we started emailing and talking to each other via phone.

     After he got involved with GK he called me a couple of times from Africa and sent flicks. When he got back he called to ask me if I was interested in going to the screening in Burbank. Told him to give me the date and I'd get the plane ticket and room. He told me not to because he was going to talk HBO into footing the bill. He's called a couple of times since joining the private force.

     Eddie tain't no slouch either. From what I can tell he has a great attitude. I was concerned about greeting him at the reunion. Didn't know if I was supposed to offer my hand to him. Didn't know if both arms were still bandaged or what. He walked around the back of the car, stuck out his right new hand, and hollered, shake the stump. He was grinning like a chessy (sp) cat eatin shit. I own land north of Houston not far from where he lives. I meet with him for supper when he's in town. There are a couple of other Iraqi 1st Reconners I meet while there.

SF


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## Hitman2/3 (Jun 29, 2009)

Cayenne6 said:


> Hitman
> 
> 
> Way back when we weren't operators, vetted, or go on missions. We were team members, some Recon trained and some not, who went on patrols. Not trying to piss you off or make fun of the now-a-day terminology. I have the greatest respect for your generation. Just an example of change.
> ...




No offence taken. Someone with your experiences will always have my full attention. I don't think anyone really has a problem with the "your school is easier than my school" at least not seriously. I think it’s been more of a question of are the standards that are now in place sufficient to say a Marine is good to go. 

In recent classes there have been people who never asked to be 0321's tried to quit and were still pushed through. Some of those same individuals have made it to a unit and showed as much enthusiasm and proficiency there as they did at BRC. I'm sure I don't have to tell you how much of a danger someone can be on a mission when they never asked to be there. 

Granted the Battalion usually catches those individuals, but it’s just a shame that they ever made it that far. 

Supposedly they are going to be correcting a lot of the problems, and hopefully that will work. Like you said though time will tell. Hopefully the standard is maintained.


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## Cayenne6 (Jun 29, 2009)

Appreciate you not taking offence. If you look at 1st Recon's history you'll see that no matter how good the Bn. trained when it was time to hit a combat zone it had to rethink things and gear up in a hurry to fight a different way. The Corps starts a war the way it finished the last one. Up until Iraq no one knew how to use the Bn. Then over time changed things several times. I fought a completely different war than Reconners from late 69 back. Result is the Bn. was constantly learning by OJT. Worst years were early 67 - middle 69. It wasn't unqualified lower enlisted but officers and higher enlisted who come to the Bn. looking to get their CAR with a Recon unit or idiots trying to run things like a grunt Bn. Lot of guys ended up KIA because of it. 

     Your generation is a prime example. What you guys did was completely out of Recon's bag of tricks. It bore a slight resemblance to what a lot of us did in 70/71. We still ran in teams but were allowed to get out of the snoop & poop mode to walk amongst the Philistines smiting them hip, thigh, and between the eyes. In that case being highly Recon trained worked against the Bn. at first. In early Jan. 70 when Drumright activated the change the team leaders with the Recon mentality wouldn't go along with the program. They preferred to sit back and call in support rather than go down and mix it up. Not until after the pull out in Sept. 70 did things really start to change. As new team leaders took over they adopted the kick ass mentality. As a point/APL I hit my first basecamp Oct. 25, 70. Next patrol out I was the PL and from then on we worked primarily in basecamps. We did everything Recon was not supposed to do. We ran high speed trails because we knew there would be a basecamp in either direction. Even if the basecamp was out of our haven we could usually mix it up with gooks going to or from them. What we did was akin to an LA street gang doing drive-bys. It took no Recon training to do what we did. Not much tactical knowledge either. Just sneak up, unload on them, then call in all the support we had to get us out of what we got into.

      Constantly changing calls for men who have the ability to do it mentally in a hurry. To me, this is where the schools come in. Yea, Recon needs men who can do it physically but all the physical endurance in the world won't help if the mentality isn't there. I'd rather have a team mate who is like a station wagon that keeps running, plowing through road blocks, and turning on an instants notice than a sports car hauling ass too fast and overshooting everything. I only had one Sports car on my team, My second Doc. He had been in several different Recon units. He was what you guys would call a high speed operator. He knew more than the rest of us combined. He came to us when 1st Force pulled out. Five minutes into his first patrol he was ready to jump ship. Years later he would tell me that he wanted to have me call the birds back so he could get out. Four more days would show him that maybe he would stick around for a while. Took me a couple of patrols to break him of all the nasty habits all the other Recon units taught him but once done he fit in nicely. That's why in the long run we weren't really Recon. We just operated under the Recon banner.

     Yea, I had a lot of great experiences with Recon in Nam. I had a ball doing what we did but there are times that I'd almost swap them for the opportunity to have all the training you guys had. I had no jump, scuba, demolition, or anything else. Engaging in a root hog or die firefight is one hell of a rush but I've never felt the rush of bailing out of an aircraft at high altitudes. That's got to be great.

     Thanks for the opportunity to swap thoughts.

SF


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## Teufel (Aug 29, 2009)

7point62 said:


> MART was a great idea. Good article. This stood out for me, though:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Marines come out of SOI barely knowing how to do a rush range.  You could cover CAS and other supporting arms at SOI but it would be overload.  There are a lot of things young Marines need to learn but there is only so much time at SOI.  This is why the Marine Corps relies on units to cover these topics during block 1 through block 4 training.  The OIF and OEF PTP specifically covers several of the training METLs you are talking about.  



ritterk said:


> In MCT we spent about 10 minutes going over CAS and that was the only time it was ever covered throughout my four years active.  I think CAS is something every Marine should be taught to a proficient level; you never know when you might need it.  It would be horrible to be caught in a situation where you needed CAS but were unable to call it in.



I agree it would be nice if everyone could call in CAS but it takes a lot of training and more importantly a lot of controls to train someone to be proficient in CAS.  Right now the Marine Corps is having a hard time getting a JTAC/FAC per infantry battalion and sourcing ANGLICO the air to get their certifications.  Also, keep in mind that a lot can go wrong with a untrained air controller.  Right now in Afghanistan you won't get drops unless you are a certified and current Joint Tactical Air Controller.  If you are in an extremis situation you may get drops, but only if you sound really confident and competent over the radio.  

This doesn't mean that Marines can't learn how to do a nine line or talk a bird on to target but that is all unit level training.  I had my FAC give my Marines CAS classes when I was in the grunts and everyone knew how to give a nine line.  I am confident that my platoon sergeant and all my squad leaders could call for air safely.


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## PunchDrunkCasper (Oct 10, 2009)

ritterk said:


> In MCT we spent about 10 minutes going over CAS and that was the only time it was ever covered throughout my four years active.  I think CAS is something every Marine should be taught to a proficient level; you never know when you might need it.  It would be horrible to be caught in a situation where you needed CAS but were unable to call it in.



Im currently in SOI, gotta love the names given to each company. 

From what i've heard around these companies, not sure about MCT, but there are some motivated instructors who will teach you the required ammount and more.
They'll go over the things you will need to know, or whatd be necessary to know when entering the fleet, such as CAS and IDF, and how to call to shift onto target.

Im new to all of this, and not sure if the post was covered, but I dont have much time on libo left and was fiending for some SS forums, haha.
But from what i've heard and seen around here, those types of things would all depend on the company and instructors at hand, and how motivated the students are to learn and go beyond that schedule they have for learning.

But I agree, they should teach you all the basics and the stuff you will need to know, especially since I hear people are just graduating and leaving to units that are set to deploy a few weeks after. Sorry, went off on a little tangent, but like he stated, its something that should be taught, or should be known, because they speak of so many times that NCO's dont even know some of the basics that they should, and rely too heavily on certain things that could fail them in the future.

Just my :2c:
Libo ending soon, hope to hear from you all after I graduate and go to my unit. Said to be 1/8. Take care all...And to all, good luck and stay safe.


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## XRecon205 (Oct 10, 2009)

Great thread.

I had great experiences in a team environment. In the 80's it was ARS, or 
Amphibious Reconnaissance School. I managed to get pneumonia, and they "offered" me the option of dropping out. (Maybe I got sick because of the 4:30 am frozen swims out of Little Creek. Go swim team 2!) Some of you may remember that you had to improve your PFT every time. 

There was no way I was dropping out, because quitting is not an option. I always thought it was either a test of my integrity or a requirement for them to ask in the event I died trying.

I managed to get through, of course. Quite a bit of puking and what not.

ARS covered Land Nav, Tides and currents, Call for Fire, lots of PT, and boat and water ops. Jump came later, as did Scuba. Not everyone was afforded the oportunity for both. At one time they have a platoon for water insertions, and one for jump. Quite often the billets went to Officers who were there for a short time to get shiny stuff and move on. Needless to say, anyone who got a billet and failed was soon on their way out.

Cold Weather training and Jungle training were added to CAX live fire. All in all, pretty decent overall operators. Boom Boom rooms and stuff came later. Sub Ops were out there, and working with DEA was an eye opener.

I believe the reasons Recon has been kept quiet involves the argument of the "elite within the elite" concerns. SF had the same sort of struggles initially. The other factor is the type of men attracted to Recon. (Quiet.) As stated earlier, you are essentially asked to perform all tasks normally done by officers. I remember a 2 star looking at me across a map table and asking me what I thought. I didn't even hesitate to state my opinion. He merely asked me if my team could really do what I suggested, and what I needed to get it done. Great memory now. 

When I got out I remember thinking, "Great, all I'm qualified to do is blow stuff up and shoot really well." I was way off. After the cops thing and the Weapons team, I moved on and discovered the greatest thing I had learned. Leadership. Physical abilities may fade, but the ability to get people to do things never goes away.

Priceless.

Of the two current fronts, Afghanistan is actually suited for Spec Ops. Small teams with good support and comm will prove to be more effective. Proof that mobility is key comes from trying to hold outer areas with fewer personnel. Slightly Reminiscent of SF and Vietnam. While I can observe, it's really not my place to critique the current decisions to increase Recon number in the way they have chosen. Mission dictates. I did what needed to be done in my time, the way it needed to be done. The new generation is a different breed, but will prove to be one cut from the same cloth, with the same blood in their veins. 

I have had the chance to go down to Bn and spend time with the "new breed", and they are brothers. Younger, different brothers. Smart, squared away, and motivated. They will prove themselves as we all did. Each generation is different, but in the end we share a common bond.

"The Title of Recon Marine is My honor."


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## NOMAD (Oct 11, 2009)

Wookie those were the good old days!!!  God how the time has come and gone but the memories remain!!


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## leonrazurado (Aug 29, 2016)

Hate to revive an old thread but has the Fix Recon initiative and the work done by Master Guns Yarolem been seen as a success within the community?


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## Teufel (Aug 29, 2016)

leonrazurado said:


> Hate to revive an old thread but has the Fix Recon initiative and the work done by Master Guns Yarolem been seen as a success within the community?



To be honest the Marine Corps has been "fixing" recon since it was created. This last initiative originated from Recon Training Company and the recon office at Plans, Policies and Operations and was largely a recruiting effort to get more lateral transfers from the FMF.  Most of our Recon Marines come straight to BRC out of SOI now.  The community didn't change its mission essential task list or command relationships because of the Fix Recon initiative.  Neither organization mentioned above have tasking authority over the operational recon units.  Each MEF and Division will determine what and how their Recon Battalion and Force Recon Company is doing.


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## Teufel (Aug 29, 2016)

@Freefalling in hindsight I should have started a separate memorial page for Bob.


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## AWP (Aug 29, 2016)

Teufel said:


> @Freefalling in hindsight I should have started a separate memorial page for Bob.



No worries. I started a thread for him.

Sgt Robert Glenn "Bob" Morris, Marine Recon

I also changed his Tag to White. You and your fellow Marines have my condolences.

Blue Skies.


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## leonrazurado (Aug 29, 2016)

Teufel said:


> To be honest the Marine Corps has been "fixing" recon since it was created. This last initiative originated from Recon Training Company and the recon office at Plans, Policies and Operations and was largely a recruiting effort to get more lateral transfers from the FMF.  Most of our Recon Marines come straight to BRC out of SOI now.  The community didn't change its mission essential task list or command relationships because of the Fix Recon initiative.  Neither organization mentioned above have tasking authority over the operational recon units.  Each MEF and Division will determine what and how their Recon Battalion and Force Recon Company is doing.



I appreciate the response. From an outside perspective, I always admired Recon and wondered how these past ten years would change the structure and mission of the battalions.


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