# No muzzle rise on full-auto...



## TheSiatonist (Nov 22, 2011)

Anyone here have any personal experience with any of FERFRANS' SOAR variants?





 




 
Very surprising to see no muzzle rise even with a larger round. What do you guys think of it?


*Disclaimer:* I have very limited experience with firearms on full-auto.


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## RackMaster (Nov 22, 2011)

Very interesting, I'd like to try them out.

Here's the company site.
http://www.ferfrans.net/


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## ÉIREGOBRÁCH1922 (Nov 22, 2011)

Very interesting. Cool stuff! 

You would never have guessed he worked for the Falcon Security Group Inc.! :-"


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## HOLLiS (Nov 22, 2011)

and?  What larger round?  I must have missed something.   Rifle design, AR platform is designed that way for that reason.   What do you think causes muzzle lift?    Stock drop.


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## CDG (Nov 22, 2011)

Re the second video:
Is that the new way to hold a rifle when firing? His off-arm looked to be in a very odd position..... Almost like he was trying to get his hand on top of the rifle to hold the muzzle down. The guy in the first video had his elbow flared out too, although his hand wasn't in the same position as the guy in the sercond video.  Seems a rather awkward position for shooting, a good way to get an elbow blown off, and completely unfeasible for room clearing/moving in a congested area.


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## Ranger Psych (Nov 22, 2011)

Elbow wasn't flared much if at all in the first video, and that's called thumb over bore and is a pretty common thing. Try it sometime.


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## CDG (Nov 22, 2011)

Ranger Psych said:


> Elbow wasn't flared much if at all in the first video, and that's called thumb over bore and is a pretty common thing. Try it sometime.


 Never seen it before. Thanks for the info.


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## Brill (Nov 22, 2011)

Ranger Psych said:


> Elbow wasn't flared much if at all in the first video, and that's called thumb over bore and is a pretty common thing. Try it sometime.



I'll second that! Changed my life!!!

Unless you're doing "the peel", why go full auto?


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## policemedic (Nov 23, 2011)

lindy said:


> I'll second that! Changed my life!!!
> 
> Unless you're doing "the peel", why go full auto?



Because you saw Charlie Sheen do it in "Navy SEALs". Or you just like to waste ammo. I can see circumstances where it's beneficial, but for the most part I say semi is the way to go.


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## AWP (Nov 23, 2011)

lindy said:


> Unless you're doing "the peel", why go full auto?


 
You clearly don't know anything about Call of Duty. :)


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## pardus (Nov 23, 2011)

I was originally trained to shoot full auto in certain situations so I do see a use for it. It does need a  Soldier to be well trained though as it is something to be used very sparingly.


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## txpj007 (Nov 23, 2011)

HOLLiS said:


> and? What larger round? I must have missed something. Rifle design, AR platform is designed that way for that reason. What do you think causes muzzle lift? Stock drop.


.308 in the second video


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## TLDR20 (Nov 23, 2011)

CDG said:


> Re the second video:
> Is that the new way to hold a rifle when firing? His off-arm looked to be in a very odd position..... Almost like he was trying to get his hand on top of the rifle to hold the muzzle down. The guy in the first video had his elbow flared out too, although his hand wasn't in the same position as the guy in the sercond video.  Seems a rather awkward position for shooting, a good way to get an elbow blown off, and completely unfeasible for room clearing/moving in a congested area.



I started shooting very similar to that in SFAUCC. Holding the rifle out farther like that gives you much better control of the rifle.


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## pardus (Nov 23, 2011)

cback0220 said:


> I started shooting very similar to that in SFAUCC. Holding the rifle out farther like that gives you much better control of the rifle.


 
I can see how it would control muzzle rise, is it as stable as the conventional grip?


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## TLDR20 (Nov 23, 2011)

pardus said:


> I can see how it would control muzzle rise, is it as stable as the conventional grip?



I think it gives you more control. It also allows you to drive your weapon better from target to target.


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## pardus (Nov 23, 2011)

Roger, thanks. I'll try it out.


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## Brill (Nov 23, 2011)

cback0220 said:


> I think it gives you more control. It also allows you to drive your weapon better from target to target.


 
Here is SGM Lamb with the same grip.


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## shortbrownguy (Nov 23, 2011)

CDG said:


> Re the second video:
> Is that the new way to hold a rifle when firing? His off-arm looked to be in a very odd position..... Almost like he was trying to get his hand on top of the rifle to hold the muzzle down. The guy in the first video had his elbow flared out too, although his hand wasn't in the same position as the guy in the sercond video. Seems a rather awkward position for shooting, a good way to get an elbow blown off, and completely unfeasible for room clearing/moving in a congested area.


Not new, and you may be outrunning your headlights with your comments.
YMMV
SBG sends.


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## TLDR20 (Nov 23, 2011)

Yeah that is really the standard now as far as I know... Some old retired SF guy saw me shoot like that and gave mr shut, I told him that is the way it is taught, and it is much more effective.


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## Brill (Nov 23, 2011)

Nothing like shooting and Nickleback blaring in the background!


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## CDG (Nov 23, 2011)

Thanks to all for setting me straight.


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## TheSiatonist (Nov 24, 2011)

CDG said:


> Re the second video:
> Is that the new way to hold a rifle when firing? His off-arm looked to be in a very odd position..... Almost like he was trying to get his hand on top of the rifle to hold the muzzle down.


I guess you didn't see the MagPul videos when they came out then.  



HOLLiS said:


> and? What larger round? I must have missed something. Rifle design, AR platform is designed that way for that reason. What do you think causes muzzle lift? Stock drop.


What txpj007 said, H. 

Here's another video of it with Chen using one hand:


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## AWP (Nov 24, 2011)

TheSiatonist said:


> Whole Post


 
FAIL

Posting the video is one thing, correcting Hollis and CDG is another, ESPECIALLY after other, more qualified members have answered them.


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## TheSiatonist (Nov 24, 2011)

My apologies if it came out that way, Free.

Was intended to be a good-natured joke hence the smileys.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 24, 2011)

CDG said:


> Re the second video:
> Is that the new way to hold a rifle when firing? His off-arm looked to be in a very odd position..... Almost like he was trying to get his hand on top of the rifle to hold the muzzle down. The guy in the first video had his elbow flared out too, although his hand wasn't in the same position as the guy in the sercond video. Seems a rather awkward position for shooting, a good way to get an elbow blown off, and completely unfeasible for room clearing/moving in a congested area.


 
I don’t teach or use the high elbow/low bore axis technique with a rifle (I think it’s kind of dumb to be honest) but I do teach the thumb over the top or pointing the index finger down the side of the RAS. I teach people to extend their hand out on the RAS as far as they physically feel comfortable for CQM/SRM type shooting. The arm/hand extended does nothing for recoil (regardless what some may tell you) but makes all the difference in the world for driving the gun/sights back to the target or to the next target. Recoil is controlled through some body positioning, but mainly flexing at the waist, bending the knees and having an aggressive fighter/athletic stance. Of course having huge muzzle breaks and heavy buffers help reduce/eliminate recoil.


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## HOLLiS (Nov 24, 2011)

I missed the second video.  Recently, on posting a link from You Tube, it seems to double post.  Sorry for that and thanks for the answer.    My comment was on design.   Older style rifles, such as the M14, there was a bit of stock drop.  The recoil will push straight back on the axis of the barrel.  If the point that contact the should is below that line/axis it will cause barrel lift.  The AR design is to mitigate lift.   Interesting to see how the off arm is used.  I still think stock placement important, especially with higher power cartridges.  

^^^ as far as recoil control,   JAB says it. 

High elbow was for the older style rifles,  M1 Garand, M14.   So pulling the rifle back into the shoulder  reduced felt recoil.   Other wise the stock would club the shoulder.


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## policemedic (Nov 24, 2011)

Thumb over bore is very efficient for a number of reasons, but I don't personally feel recoil control is among them. I believe Hollis is right regarding stock design and placement in this regard.

The recoil impulse on the AR platform is designed to translate directly rearwards to the buffer tube. This is pretty much a straight path, and therefore muzzle rise should be minimal if proper fundamentals are applied-as Hollis and JAB have stated. Where I spend my time correcting shooters is in stock placement, since a lot of them like to mount the stock in such a way that the buffer tube is unsupported by the shoulder or chest. This provides a fulcrum for recoil to act on, and muzzle flip is consequently dramatically increased with a concurrent increase in split times.


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