# Las Vegas Shooting



## CDG (Oct 2, 2017)

50 or more dead, 200 wounded.  Shooter was a 64 year old male. Happened at a Jason Aldean concert near the Mandalay Bay.

Las Vegas Shooting Near Mandalay Bay Casino Kills More Than 50


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## Scarecrow (Oct 2, 2017)

Fuck, that is a lot of people. 

RIP to the dead, and wishing full recoveries to the injured.


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## Muppet (Oct 2, 2017)

Fucking sick to my stomach.

M.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 2, 2017)

Muppet said:


> Fucking sick to my stomach.
> 
> M.



Muppet - I just cannot wrap my head around discussing the event itself; so allow me to talk around it?  In your role as an EMT (if I have your title wrong please forgive and correct!), what happens when something like this begins?

Is it "all hands on deck" and every available ambulance and police tears off to the area, or is it much more coordinated than that?

Same goes for ER's....do they stop taking patients, or just become significantly more choosy until the casualties begin to roll in?


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## SOSTCRNA (Oct 2, 2017)

I have a friend who is a CRNA in Vegas.. Have not heard from her yet but I imagine she is hard at work at her hospital during this mass cal event. Praying for her and all the others.


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## Grunt (Oct 2, 2017)

Rest In Peace to the fallen and prayers out for the recovery of the wounded!

That is a truly sad incident!


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## CDG (Oct 2, 2017)

Reports keep rolling in. Dude was firing from the 32nd floor of the hotel. SWAT teams smoked him, and found multiple weapons inside his room. The shooter was from Nevada.


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## Florida173 (Oct 2, 2017)

Sebastian Gorka was suggesting it was a bit odd for a 64 year old like this Stephen Paddock. It will be interesting to see what kind of motivations were involved.


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## SpitfireV (Oct 2, 2017)

They're looking for his missus still too I think.


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## Florida173 (Oct 2, 2017)

They breached door with explosives to gain entry to his room


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## jackmick (Oct 2, 2017)

Multiple sources are reporting that several off-duty officers were among those killed and at least one responding to the shooting was critically injured. In some of the videos from concert goers it sounded like police were shooting back at him with rifles from the ground. Terrible tragedy.


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## Devildoc (Oct 2, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Muppet - I just cannot wrap my head around discussing the event itself; so allow me to talk around it?  In your role as an EMT (if I have your title wrong please forgive and correct!), what happens when something like this begins?
> 
> Is it "all hands on deck" and every available ambulance and police tears off to the area, or is it much more coordinated than that?
> 
> Same goes for ER's....do they stop taking patients, or just become significantly more choosy until the casualties begin to roll in?



I am not going to speak for @Muppet , but that is a MCI of epic proportions.  On the scene...do-gooders will take injured to several places, there isn't going to be one triage area.  For every one bus rider, there will be 10 walking wounded.  After you do some semblance of triage, you transport.  But to where?  There is one level 1 trauma center in Vegas, you think maybe 5 trauma bays at most.  Maybe able to clear a dozen, 18 ICU beds.  Of course the less wounded would go elsewhere, but how do you shit beds in 4 or 5 hospitals for 400 victims??  You can't.  So you put beds in hallways, you board in the ED, you evac by ground and air to other cities.

It isn't a "all hands on deck" at first because you still need busses to respond to regular 911 calls.  And hospitals will take whatever comes through the door until a point when the facility declares what we call a Code Triage, which is an external disaster.  At that point the level 1 trauma center will divert ambulances to other facilities with non-emergent issues, empty as many ICU beds as possible, discharge people who are with a day or two of being discharged, call in extra staff.

No matter how prepared we like to say we are, we never are.  This is a shit sandwich for everyone.


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## SaintKP (Oct 2, 2017)

Christ


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 2, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> I am not going to speak for @Muppet , but that is a MCI of epic proportions.  On the scene...do-gooders will take injured to several places, there isn't going to be one triage area.  For every one bus rider, there will be 10 walking wounded.  After you do some semblance of triage, you transport.  But to where?  There is one level 1 trauma center in Vegas, you think maybe 5 trauma bays at most.  Maybe able to clear a dozen, 18 ICU beds.  Of course the less wounded would go elsewhere, but how do you shit beds in 4 or 5 hospitals for 400 victims??  You can't.  So you put beds in hallways, you board in the ED, you evac by ground and air to other cities.
> 
> It isn't a "all hands on deck" at first because you still need busses to respond to regular 911 calls.  And hospitals will take whatever comes through the door until a point when the facility declares what we call a Code Triage, which is an external disaster.  At that point the level 1 trauma center will divert ambulances to other facilities with non-emergent issues, empty as many ICU beds as possible, discharge people who are with a day or two of being discharged, call in extra staff.
> 
> No matter how prepared we like to say we are, we never are.  This is a shit sandwich for everyone.



From my layman's perspective, this is the moment when the "leadership" "interpersonal skills" and "intelligence" factors on your job application really come into effect. There were direct-interview reports of ambulatory and non-wounded transporting individuals to other locations while the triage identified critically injured and got them over to the nearest facility.

Despite the chaos, the overall impression I gathered was that the victims and medical first responders reacted as best they could - even from an armchair quarterback's white board.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 2, 2017)

What a horrid event. It.s really hard to wrap my head around this. What a complete coward. The shooter placed himself where even those who CCW could not reach him. 

Thoughts and prayers out to all touched by the evil event.


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## amlove21 (Oct 2, 2017)

I know a lot of the LE in Vegas. Close friends are all safe, but this is truly a tragedy. 

Fair winds to those lost.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 2, 2017)

SOSTCRNA said:


> I have a friend who is a CRNA in Vegas.. Have not heard from her yet but I imagine she is hard at work at her hospital during this mass cal event. Praying for her and all the others.



You are spot on. With the number injured, there will be a lot of air and ground transports out to nearby facilities. This number of injured will overwhelm the medical facilities of Las Vegas.


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## RackMaster (Oct 2, 2017)

Well then, this was not totally unexpected.  

ISIS claim responsibility for Las Vegas shooting | Daily Mail Online


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## Devildoc (Oct 2, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> From my layman's perspective, this is the moment when the "leadership" "interpersonal skills" and "intelligence" factors on your job application really come into effect. There were direct-interview reports of ambulatory and non-wounded transporting individuals to other locations while the triage identified critically injured and got them over to the nearest facility.
> 
> Despite the chaos, the overall impression I gathered was that the victims and medical first responders reacted as best they could - even from an armchair quarterback's white board.



I have no doubt in my mind that the people who were there, ambulatory victims and people in the crowd, accounted for lives being saved, and the emergency services system did everything it could under unimaginable circumstances. 

I will say a large MCI is the closest thing to combat I have seen where your mind is juggling 10 things, 8 of which are already outdated by new information by the time they pop into your head.


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## Blizzard (Oct 2, 2017)

I'm not very familiar with Vegas but guessing evac out of Vegas is not a trivial challenge.  I heard it reported that they have only one Level 1 trauma center to serve the region, to include parts of Arizona, California and Utah.  With the number of casualties, I imagine they're even moving some life flights out to LA, Phoenix, Flagstaff, etc.?  Pretty overwhelming.

Godspeed to all impacted.


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## Dame (Oct 2, 2017)

The concert was the Route 91 Harvest Festival. There were many country singers there to perform. Jason Aldean may have been onstage at the time but it wasn't his concert. This festival lasts for several days every year.
The shooter lived in a 55+ community in Mesquite. Sun City Mesquite is the most likely.
The Mesquite police have no record of any contact with him, ever. Not so much as a traffic stop or parking ticket.
The mood here is bad. Airport was shut down. No flights in or out. I'm sure they'll open it asap.


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## Poccington (Oct 2, 2017)

Absolutely tragic. Those poor people never stood a chance.


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## 757 (Oct 2, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> Well then, this was not totally unexpected.
> 
> ISIS claim responsibility for Las Vegas shooting | Daily Mail Online




ISIS claims Las Vegas mass shooting; FBI: No link between shooter, terrorist group

Updated.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 2, 2017)

?


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 2, 2017)

757 said:


> ISIS claims Las Vegas mass shooting; FBI: No link between shooter, terrorist group
> Updated.



At this point in the game, unless the FBI comes out and says so, I think it is premature to speculate about formal terrorist ties.

That said, I also think it is normal to look for those ties, and maybe even 'hope' that those connections turn out to be true.  I believe as humans, we try hard to rationalize terrible things.  What happened was horrific, but is it more or less horrible if it turns out the guy was trained and put into place by some Islamic terrorist group?


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## RackMaster (Oct 2, 2017)

And then there's this. I dont think he was alone.

Witness Describes Being Warned Before Attack: 'You're All Going to Die'


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## Dame (Oct 2, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I am glad to hear from you girl, and that you are all right!
> 
> Are they using the airport for evacuation of injured?


There is precious little moving at McCarran right now. I work across the street.
Seems like everyone is checking on each other right now. Friends of friends shot. That sort of thing. Cabbagehead is in town but did not get tickets so he and his HH6 are OK.
There were over 200,000 at the festival. Over 500 injured. 58 dead as of this time. No one is even cracking a smile here.

Just saw one flight land. Thats a good thing.


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## x SF med (Oct 2, 2017)

WOW.  Prayers out for those lost and injured.  I don't know what else to say.


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## TheSiatonist (Oct 2, 2017)

Someone recorded police conversation during the whole thing.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1818921621455743
			




Sorry but it's a facebook link.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 2, 2017)

Absolutely tragic.


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## RackMaster (Oct 2, 2017)

This whole thing gets odder by the moment.

http://nypost.com/2017/10/02/vegas-gunmans-psychopath-dad-landed-on-fbis-most-wanted-list/


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## DocIllinois (Oct 2, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> This whole thing gets odder by the moment.
> 
> http://nypost.com/2017/10/02/vegas-gunmans-psychopath-dad-landed-on-fbis-most-wanted-list/



When it comes to someone committing such an act, nothing done is ever really out of character, IMO. 

Something like supernatural possession or ISIS making him do it doesn't look good, so it will be interesting what motivations come to light from here on.   Investigation will be swift and aggressive.


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## E.M.D.7/19 (Oct 2, 2017)

If anyone wants a status check for potential injured family pm me as I'm a e.m. doc at UMC


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## Florida173 (Oct 2, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> And then there's this. I dont think he was alone.
> 
> Witness Describes Being Warned Before Attack: 'You're All Going to Die'



I was in Vegas in July. Walking the strip I had the same experience. Could be unrelated


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 2, 2017)

.


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## Florida173 (Oct 2, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> This really is a shattering event, no matter the cause. The last FBI input at a recent news conference said there was no link to any terrorist group.



I don't trust the FBI's ability to determine that hours from the event. They'd still have to subpoena phone and online presence.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 2, 2017)

[?


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 2, 2017)

Why are the Media people reminding us that Country Music Fans probably voted for Trump. CNN Reporter Asks Public To 'Keep In Mind' That Vegas Victims Were Likely Trump Supporters

CBS Attorney: No Sympathy for Vegas Victims 'Because Country Music Fans Are Republican Gun Toters'

Also, Hillary and the Left on their tweetathon about gun control.

IRT the FBI drawing conclusions less than 24 hours after the event, why?


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## TheSiatonist (Oct 2, 2017)

There's this guy who worked for the show who posted this...


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 2, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> The worst part about this all of these Media people reminding us that Country Music Fans probably voted for Trump.



Is that really the worst part about this?  I doubt that is true. 



ThunderHorse said:


> Also, Hillary and the Left on their tweetathon about gun control.



To add - the event is not even 24 hours old yet, and inserting comments about political motives and gun control take away from the comfort or discussion some might get from reading this thread.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 2, 2017)

Based on the on the distance away from the hotel the guy recording his clip was from the hotel, that sounds a bit larger than 5.56.

Video shows first moment of Las Vegas shooting


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## Muppet (Oct 2, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Muppet - I just cannot wrap my head around discussing the event itself; so allow me to talk around it?  In your role as an EMT (if I have your title wrong please forgive and correct!), what happens when something like this begins?
> 
> Is it "all hands on deck" and every available ambulance and police tears off to the area, or is it much more coordinated than that?
> 
> Same goes for ER's....do they stop taking patients, or just become significantly more choosy until the casualties begin to roll in?



All has been stated. There are different levels of MCIs (mascals). Dispatch knows the levels per protocol and sends MICUs, fire dept, placed medevacs on stand by, places county in code red status, pulls from different end of county or from out of area. In hospital have disaster protocols also. The term ICS or incident command system is the structure we would operate from, utilizing typical civ EMS, fire protocols, in cases like this, due to the injuries, obvious combat medicine protocols would be used. This though, this is beyond many of us have ever seen except for Veterans that were in the shit, ambush from height into crowd. This is a once in lifetime event for most if not all providers. The last MCI I was involved in, started off as EMS ops part of ICS was a Valentines day crash on the P.A. Turnpike, 15 miles long, 70 green tages, 10 red tages, 25 yellow. This even is sickening, like all others. I read that one fire medic from Clarke County pronounced 20, yeah, 20 vics dead himself. There are MCI protocols to allow for this. Circulation, airway / breathing and mental status. If none, BLACK tag, move on to those you can salvage, like in combat. I have been involved in making these judgements and not a day goes by that I wonder of I made the right choice on walking over a dead teenager on I95 to salvage another one.....

M.


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## TheSiatonist (Oct 2, 2017)

Some people are saying the sound they heard was consistent with an AK firing at full-auto while some have noticed the inconsistent rate of fire and suggests the shooter was using a trigger crank.

Las Vegas shooter may have used trigger crank, expert says


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## Dame (Oct 2, 2017)

The good:

Help has been coming in faster than actual news. Blood donors are being asked to make appointments now. Some places had a 5 hour wait to give. The latest information is that they are booked out to Thursday.

Water, blankets, food, and other essentials were swamping the cops. Metro PD is now asking people to take donations to one of the convention centers here.

The County Commissioners have started a Go Fund Me page for the victims.
Click here to support LAS VEGAS VICTIMS' FUND organized by Steve Sisolak


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## Devildoc (Oct 2, 2017)

Muppet said:


> This though, this is beyond many of us have ever seen except for Veterans that were in the shit, ambush from height into crowd. This is a once in lifetime event for most if not all providers. The last MCI I was involved in, started off as EMS ops part of ICS was a Valentines day crash on the P.A. Turnpike, 15 miles long, 70 green tages, 10 red tages, 25 yellow. This even is sickening, like all others.



This far (*FAR*) exceeds anything like what I have seen, downrange included.  I think my biggest civilian MCI was maybe 20ish from a MVC with about 10 red tags.  A shooting....a dozen shot, maybe 7 red tag.  These were big events that taxed an EMS system and two local level 1 trauma centers.  The numbers in Vegas are staggering beyond the pale.  They are monumental natural disaster or WMD numbers.


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## Muppet (Oct 2, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> This far (*FAR*) exceeds anything like what I have seen, downrange included.  I think my biggest civilian MCI was maybe 20ish from a MVC with about 10 red tags.  A shooting....a dozen shot, maybe 7 red tag.  These were big events that taxed an EMS system and two local level 1 trauma centers.  The numbers in Vegas are staggering beyond the pale.  They are monumental natural disaster or WMD numbers.



Agreed bro. 

M.


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## Gunz (Oct 2, 2017)

Unfuckingbelievable. Shooter had full-auto weapons & it took police 72 minutes to identify his position. That's a lot of time to be under fire.

Security forces were not prepared for a shooter firing from such a height, and you can't blame them since most mass shootings have been from ground level. That will now change.

But this takes us back to Charles Whitman in the Texas Tower.


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## Devildoc (Oct 2, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Unfuckingbelievable. Shooter had full-auto weapons & it took police 72 minutes to identify his position. That's a lot of time to be under fire.
> 
> Security forces were not prepared for a shooter firing from such a height, and you can't blame them since most mass shootings have been from ground level. That will now change.
> 
> But this takes us back to Charles Whitman in the Texas Tower.



I am not sure how you defend against it. And the whole cost / risk analysis scheme of things, it would be extraordinarily expensive to try to engineer against that, without an ability to measure the efficacy.  At some point the risk has to be measured against the cost of what it is to live in a free Society.

I don't have all the answers. I don't have any answers. If I did I certainly wouldn't be doing what I am doing now.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 2, 2017)

[QU


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## DA SWO (Oct 2, 2017)

The only thing close to 500 casualties for me is a plane crash, think we had a couple hundred when the F-16 plowed through Green Ramp.
Prayers for all the victims and their families, and for the people of Vegas too.


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## Il Duce (Oct 2, 2017)

NPR was reporting the gunman had 19 rifles in his room, hundreds of rounds of ammunition, and at least 2 rifles mounted on tripods.  The shooter was a 64 year old male with substantial gambling debts - some incurred recently - and killed himself before/as police arrived.

All reports are suspect - especially the first ones - so I think all news/data has to be taken with a grain of salt but it seems like the picture emerging is not aligned to a politically motivated or terrorist motivated attack and the response taking down the shooter was more in line with the Austin tower shooter as @Ocoka mentioned.


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## Dame (Oct 2, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> We ran a lot of Mass Casualty exercises from the USAF IG Team. Sometimes the local communities would join in to add to their exercise requirements. We never ran an event that had these many casualties. We often talked about it, but in a peacetime setting the numbers were just not supported. The world has changed, and has become a more dangerous place to live. Today the number of worldwide casualties have gone to the next level. We are nearly at a limited wartime footing now. The number of Mass Cas events has spiked and has stayed there. The number of events has spiked and continues to climb. We are living through a time that is much more dangerous. It makes one begin to think that events with large numbers of people need much tighter security, or need to stop altogether. Time will tell. My thought is that large outdoor events will begin to fall away because of the risk that is becoming more common now. Large indoor events are easier to secure, as are events in outdoor stadiums with limited access points. Times have changed and this event is going to be the game changer.


For those not familiar with Las Vegas and to reiterate Red Flag's assessment of the outdoor situation, this is where the festival was held; on the Strip, outside, three days with fantastic weather guaranteeing high attendance. No cover and no hides from someone on the 32nd floor.


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## Gunz (Oct 2, 2017)

As most of us here know, the stakes are higher when the shooter has a commanding position from a height...more so in urban terrain with high buildings where there are so many potential hides for snipers. It takes too long a time to identify the source and maneuver into a position to counter fire.

Whitman, the Texas Tower Sniper, was on the 28th floor and kept up fire for 96 minutes before cops could get to him and kill him. An eternity.


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## AWP (Oct 2, 2017)

This thing is horrible all around. Most of my thoughts are kind of moot right now, especially with the off-the-cuff information flow foud so often after a monumental tragedy. Sadly, opinions are already being formed the world over based upon cherry picked "facts";I'll rfrain from such reindeer games.

I'm glad our members are okay. The KC-130 crash, this, the war...too many events hitting "home" here on SS.

Blue Skies.


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## SaintKP (Oct 2, 2017)

AWP said:


> This thing is horrible all around. Most of my thoughts are kind of moot right now, especially with the off-the-cuff information flow foud so often after a monumental tragedy. Sadly, opinions are already being formed the world over based upon cherry picked "facts";I'll rfrain from such reindeer games.
> 
> I'm glad our members are okay. The KC-130 crash, this, the war...too many events hitting "home" here on SS.
> 
> Blue Skies.




Hard agree, I've heard everything from white nationalist gun nut to false flag CIA leftist operation to incite more hate for Trump. All we can do right now as the chaos settles and we get a clearer picture of the motives behind this is to make sure our loved ones and neighbors are safe.

God speed to everyone affected.


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## Florida173 (Oct 2, 2017)




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## Blizzard (Oct 2, 2017)

Seems part of the issue is venue design which, ironically, is a result of security concerns but in an emergency has the unintended consequence of creating a bottleneck due to limited entry/exit points.

This is an issue with many large venues whether inside or out; the Bataclan theater shooting in Paris (shooters were also in an elevated position firing from the balcony down to the floor area) or the club shooting in Orlando as examples.   Even without an active shooter situation, this type of setup has issues (ex. The Station nightclub fire).  

In this case it was further exploited by the high rate of fire and elevated position - it was akin to shooting fish in a barrel; concert goers were tightly amassed with no where to retreat or find cover.  Until concert-goers were able to break through barriers, etc. they unfortunately were trapped in the open with bullets raining down on them.

That's simply horrific.

There are some amazing stories emerging of concert-goers turned first responders.  True force multipliers given the scale of this tragedy.


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## Frank S. (Oct 2, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> The first person I thought of when this broke was you, my girl. I was very relieved to see your first post. Good to hear Cabbagehead and HH6 are GTG.



Same here.


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## Dame (Oct 2, 2017)

Frank S. said:


> Same here.


PMs inbound.


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## AWP (Oct 3, 2017)

We're up to 59 dead. 

What surprises me is that over 24 hours later we still don't have a motive. This was heavily planned, bu there's no obvious note or video explaining "why?"


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 3, 2017)

AWP said:


> We're up to 59 dead.
> 
> What surprises me is that over 24 hours later we still don't have a motive. This was heavily planned, bu there's no obvious note or video explaining "why?"



Because you can't just "explain" crazy, that's why. People do shit all the time without warning or any history to leave behind - guy killed himself. What we know is he had a pretty big stockpile built up, he was a high rolling gambler, and he had some level of wealth. I'm confident the only prevention mishaps that occurred as the events transpired resonate with the security lead of the venue and those who noticed this guy in the past few-weeks-to-minutes leading up to the event.

Almost always - we find people who had a "gut" feeling or whatever.

I tickles me that the gun advocates & gun haters are at the podium about this - never do we remind citizens longer than the honeymoon phase that vigilance, awareness, and reassessment at all times prevents this shit. I don't give a shit about guns or the second amendment - go whichever way you want with that - but I know that simply removing guns or 32nd floors of hotel rooms doesn't prevent evil-doers from preying on soft targets. It might even inspire them to go about it another method, perhaps chemical/poison or a reemergence of explosives.. or whatever else they can be creative with.

Truly saddens me.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 3, 2017)

I'm a believer in many of the things Dr. Albert Schweitzer wrote about the value of life.  We're no longer teaching that at the basic level.  

Some people will connect that to a lack of godliness in our society but I'm not sure you have to purely connect his teachings to God and Christ although he was a Christian.  His writings based on his experience as a doctor in Africa are more prevalent as we move forward.  

But if I had a choice, give me more Liberty.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 3, 2017)

W


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 3, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> I'm a believer in many of the things Dr. Albert Schweitzer wrote about the value of life.  We're no longer teaching that at the basic level.
> 
> Some people will connect that to a lack of godliness in our society but I'm not sure you have to purely connect his teachings to God and Christ although he was a Christian.  His writings based on his experience as a doctor in Africa are more prevalent as we move forward.
> 
> But if I had a choice, give me more Liberty.



Without pushing the thread away from the topic:
I subscribe to the notion of moral objectivity and believe the more one interacts with their environment, the increased likelihood said morality will be on par with an acceptable standard determined by the environment not restricted by religion. Many western-style civilizations endured periods of reflective-equilibrium which produced much of the "isms" we know historically (Racism, Feminism, etc..) as well as movements.


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## Blizzard (Oct 3, 2017)

I'm sure his girlfriend, partner, or whatever she was has many of the answers as to his motive.  I'd also hazard a guess that authorities either have or are in the process of obtaining those answers from her, even if they haven't shared this publicly.  The reported transfer of $100k to the Philippines is interesting.


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## Gunz (Oct 3, 2017)

They blew up the Oklahoma Federal building with a fucking fertilizer bomb. People bent on killing will always find a way. 

Motive sometimes is in the guy's head. Hates the world, wants to take as many with him as he can. Let's his bullets be his manifesto and kills himself painlessly to cheat the cops out of gunning him down.

 Very few ways to anticipate or defend against the silent grey man who commits nothing to paper or social media and who is guided by nothing but his malevolent will.


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## DocIllinois (Oct 3, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> Without pushing the thread away from the topic:
> I subscribe to the notion of moral objectivity and believe the more one interacts with their environment, the increased likelihood said morality will be on par with an acceptable standard determined by the environment not restricted by religion. Many western-style civilizations endured periods of reflective-equilibrium which produced much of the "isms" we know historically (Racism, Feminism, etc..) as well as movements.



So, what's your "push" here?  That the alleged shooter should have interacted with his environment more, therefore soaking up it's morality and making it less likely he would have unloaded into that crowd?


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 3, 2017)

DocIllinois said:


> So, what's your "push" here?  That the alleged shooter should have interacted with his environment more, therefore soaking up it's morality and making it less likely he would have unloaded into that crowd?


No, it was a side note - assholes don't necessarily need a reason to act like assholes, that's why they're assholes.


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## CQB (Oct 3, 2017)

Blizzard said:


> I'm sure his girlfriend, partner, or whatever she was has many of the answers as to his motive.  I'd also hazard a guess that authorities either have or are in the process of obtaining those answers from her, even if they haven't shared this publicly.  The reported transfer of $100k to the Philippines is interesting.


I didn't know of the funds transfer, but the info here is she is Australian & was OS at the time. There is a suspicion that he used her ID to book the room.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 3, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Seriously?



Seriously?

Why are you insisting (for the second time now) on inserting a gun control conversation into this thread?

I’ve already asked once, and now once again.  
There is a whole thread dedicated to gun control.  Have at it, but please keep this thread specific to the topic; not the politics of it. 

United States & Gun Control discussion.


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## Kraut783 (Oct 3, 2017)

CBS VP (legal) fired for social media comments...people are pretty stupid on social media, you would think a educated professional would stop and think before posting.....especially a lawyer for the company.

"CBS has parted ways with one of the company’s top lawyers after she said she was “not even sympathetic” to victims of the Las Vegas shooting because “country music fans often are Republican,” when discussing the mass shooting that unfolded in Las Vegas late Sunday night."

CBS fires vice president who said Vegas victims didn't deserve sympathy because country music fans 'often are Republican'

CBS fires VP for writing ‘Republican gun toters’ killed in Las Vegas don’t deserve sympathy


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 3, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Seriously?
> 
> Why are you insisting (for the second time now) on inserting a gun control conversation into this thread?
> 
> ...



To clarify, it's not about insisting, it was that at the time it was in a Vegas related article.  And therefor the update because it was Vegas related.  However, I'll reset the reticle, no problem.

I can't seem to find the original article on LAT's website: Police Still Have Not Discovered A Motive For Las Vegas Shooting

Because T&P changes titles of what they repost.


----------



## DC (Oct 3, 2017)

Obvious inaccuracies but good info. Most logical information for me anyways until all the investigation is complete.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 3, 2017)

Vegas shooter wired $100,000 to girlfriend's home country last week

Key Points are:



> Las Vegas shooter Stephen Paddock wired $100,000 to an account in his live-in girlfriend’s home country, the Philippines, in the week before he unleashed the worst mass shooting in modern U.S. history, according to multiple senior law enforcement officials.



And he's a Whale:


> Paddock had "the highest status" at Caesars Entertainment properties in Las Vegas, a source close to the investigation told NBC News.


----------



## Dame (Oct 3, 2017)

Another little bit of good that gets missed in all the bad:
John Rich of the country music duo Big and Rich handed his weapon to an off duty officer from Minneapolis. The officer then held point at the front door to the Redneck Riviera for two hours placing himself between the guests and whatever would come through the door.
The Redneck Riviera is owned by Rich and is a popular local country hangout.


> John Rich, of Big & Rich, performed at the Route 91 Harvest Festival shortly before shots rang out at the show.
> The country star was hanging out at the Redneck Riveria (sic) bar, which he owns, after his performance when the crowd at the festival was barraged with bullets.
> The gun owner gave his weapon to an off-duty police officer.
> Rich told Fox News on Monday, "I had a Minneapolis police officer off-duty hanging out. He came up to me and he showed me his badge and he says, 'I'm officer... and I am not armed for the first time ever I can't believe it. Are you armed? I said, 'Yes sir, I am armed.' I have my concealed weapons permit and I said, 'Yes, I am armed.' He said, 'Can I have your firearm so I can hold point on this front door?'


Country music's John Rich gave his gun to a police officer during Las Vegas shooting


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 3, 2017)

That bank transfer isn't neccessarily important. If he's been making donations for a long time it might not be. If it's a one-off then yeah, time to look into it.


----------



## policemedic (Oct 3, 2017)

I think the media is (deliberately) conflating ‘injured’ with ‘injured by gunfire’.  Of the 500 or so injured, I’m sure many were injured by other means. That doesn’t displace blame, but it does put things in perspective.


----------



## CDG (Oct 3, 2017)

policemedic said:


> I think the media is (deliberately) conflating ‘injured’ with ‘injured by gunfire’.  Of the 500 or so injured, I’m sure many were injured by other means. That doesn’t displace blame, but it does put things in perspective.



Articles were mentioning that a lot of people were injured in the stampede after the gunshots started.  Still attributable to the shooter; but I understand what you're saying, and agree.


----------



## Florida173 (Oct 3, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> That bank transfer isn't neccessarily important. If he's been making donations for a long time it might not be. If it's a one-off then yeah, time to look into it.



Maybe donations to IS-P?


----------



## E.M.D.7/19 (Oct 3, 2017)

Muppet said:


> All has been stated. There are different levels of MCIs (mascals). Dispatch knows the levels per protocol and sends MICUs, fire dept, placed medevacs on stand by, places county in code red status, pulls from different end of county or from out of area. In hospital have disaster protocols also. The term ICS or incident command system is the structure we would operate from, utilizing typical civ EMS, fire protocols, in cases like this, due to the injuries, obvious combat medicine protocols would be used. This though, this is beyond many of us have ever seen except for Veterans that were in the shit, ambush from height into crowd. This is a once in lifetime event for most if not all providers. The last MCI I was involved in, started off as EMS ops part of ICS was a Valentines day crash on the P.A. Turnpike, 15 miles long, 70 green tages, 10 red tages, 25 yellow. This even is sickening, like all others. I read that one fire medic from Clarke County pronounced 20, yeah, 20 vics dead himself. There are MCI protocols to allow for this. Circulation, airway / breathing and mental status. If none, BLACK tag, move on to those you can salvage, like in combat. I have been involved in making these judgements and not a day goes by that I wonder of I made the right choice on walking over a dead teenager on I95 to salvage another one.....
> 
> M.


Fire department cannot declare someone dead only a physician can in nevada


----------



## Dame (Oct 3, 2017)

E.M.D.7/19 said:


> Fire department cannot declare someone dead only a physician can in nevada


Really? I did not know that. When I called someone to pronounce at a residence they sent a nurse.


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 3, 2017)

Florida173 said:


> Maybe donations to IS-P?



Occam's Razor would say pretty unlikely.


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 3, 2017)

Dame said:


> Really? I did not know that. When I called someone to pronounce at a residence they sent a nurse.



Depends on the State.


----------



## RetPara (Oct 3, 2017)

Dame; glad your safe stay that way.

Thoughts.  

There may be more similarities/dissimilarities to Charlie Whitman/UT shooting than may immediately come to mind............ 

If you went through Marine Boot at Dago in the 70's you heard a LOT about that fracas.  Whitman had a rifle and knew how to use.  This guy did not. I'm pretty certain was a spray and pray attack.  If the shooter had been trained on a level as Whitman...  it would of been a LOT worse.  

I had never heard of bump stock before Monday, but after listening to a variety of Vegas videos and and listening to bump stock video's on YT, it makes sense now.  The cyclic was just not right.  My son and I went to a MG shoot in May.  Everything from .22 up to a Mountain Howitzer and AAA.  

It would appear the shooter died from eating a Colt sandwich.  Which will make the autopsy harder.  Since there has been so little connecting him to actions in the past and a family history of violence (Dad)...  there may be something there.  I believe the autopsy may show something neurologically wrong (tumor) similar to what Whitman had.  

Departing from the Whitman scenario...   The whole thing of the girlfriend baling out OCONUS is a little odd.... Then you throw in the wire transfers the shooter made.....   I don't believe in coincidence.  

The whole Phillipines angle also perks up spidy senses.  PI has had a long term problem with radical Islam.  Going back to the 70's.  Now... fast forward to the 90's...  a guy by name of Terry Nichols marries a PI mail order bride.  Her family then turns out to have connections with Abu Sayyaf...  Of course all of this is dismissed after McVeighs arrest and conviction.  Nichols wife returned to PI after his arrest.  So the shooter wires $100K to PI?


----------



## E.M.D.7/19 (Oct 3, 2017)

A nurse can call a physician who will then give that nurse a list of tasks to complete, after which if patient does not respond the physician calls time of death.


----------



## _JR_ (Oct 4, 2017)

policemedic said:


> I think the media is (deliberately) conflating ‘injured’ with ‘injured by gunfire’.  Of the 500 or so injured, I’m sure many were injured by other means. That doesn’t displace blame, but it does put things in perspective.




Totally agree. One of the doctors interviewed said the ingureies ranged from bullet wounds to sprained ankles.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 4, 2017)

I'm not buying the one shooter story. Been in a few gun rights, inside the city, understand echoes and the bouncing of sounds, etc. It's pretty clear in a few videos I've matched and then just listened to, that there was semi-auto fire and full auto fire happening at the same time. The rate of fire seems a bit much, possibly drum mags and the multiple rifles aspects, but, hmmmm, something just don't seem right with the story line.

Anyway, really tragic situation, and this will have a very negative impact on many cities for years to come. I also see some gun control coming, I think its pretty inevitable after this and the nightclub incident in FL.

RIP to the dead, and a speedy recovery to all wounded.


----------



## _JR_ (Oct 4, 2017)

His girlfriend just arrived in the states. Lets see if they can get a motive after questioning her.


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 4, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I'm not buying the one shooter story. Been in a few gun rights, inside the city, understand echoes and the bouncing of sounds, etc. It's pretty clear in a few videos I've matched and then just listened to, that there was semi-auto fire and full auto fire happening at the same time. The rate of fire seems a bit much, possibly drum mags and the multiple rifles aspects, but, hmmmm, something just don't seem right with the story line.
> 
> Anyway, really tragic situation, and this will have a very negative impact on many cities for years to come. I also see some gun control coming, I think its pretty inevitable after this and the nightclub incident in FL.
> 
> RIP to the dead, and a speedy recovery to all wounded.



It sounds like the cops returned fire, which could explain any extra sounds. I'd posit you'd need more evidence than that to say, with confidence, that there was another shooter.


----------



## Muppet (Oct 4, 2017)

E.M.D.7/19 said:


> Fire department cannot declare someone dead only a physician can in nevada



What about an MCI? In P.A. we required medcomm to sign off also but I wonder, how would an MCI of this scale affect the commands lines. A medic cannot stop to contact medcomm for every black tag. How does that work for you guys doc?

M.


----------



## medicchick (Oct 4, 2017)

Muppet said:


> What about an MCI? In P.A. we required medcomm to sign off also but I wonder, how would an MCI of this scale affect the commands lines. A medic cannot stop to contact medcomm for every black tag. How does that work for you guys doc?
> 
> M.


I think is varied by county.  Here is the Washoe County (Reno) MCI plan.  I can see if RP can ask a Range buddie who is a supervisor for REMSA.

https://www.washoecounty.us/health/files/emergency-medical-services/mcip-revised-12-13-13.pdf


----------



## CQB (Oct 4, 2017)

RetPara said:


> Dame; glad your safe stay that way.
> 
> Thoughts.
> 
> ...



He was a whale on a loosing streak & I doubt the IS connection in the PI. Its'media shit. But Kudos, as this is the first mention of that problem there. This is a discussion for another discussion thread as the Islamist revolutionary context has been going on for some time, particularly in Indonesia & has cultural undertones .


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 4, 2017)

Be cautious of buying into the "conspiracy theory" stuff circulating the internet.  Sometimes a nut is just a nut.

The one I am currently seeing 'everywhere' is the alleged muzzle flashes coming from the 4th floor.  That has already been debunked as a known light source and is seen on multiple cameras flashing hours prior to the concert.  None the less....people who should know better are dedicating their Facebook pages to this garbage.


----------



## The Hate Ape (Oct 4, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I'm not buying the one shooter story. Been in a few gun rights, inside the city, understand echoes and the bouncing of sounds, etc. It's pretty clear in a few videos I've matched and then just listened to, that there was semi-auto fire and full auto fire happening at the same time. The rate of fire seems a bit much, possibly drum mags and the multiple rifles aspects, but, hmmmm, something just don't seem right with the story line.
> 
> Anyway, really tragic situation, and this will have a very negative impact on many cities for years to come. I also see some gun control coming, I think its pretty inevitable after this and the nightclub incident in FL.
> 
> RIP to the dead, and a speedy recovery to all wounded.



Can you link these videos? The ones I heard sounded just fine. I assumed extra-large capacity magazines and incorrectly guessed that they were semi-autos illegally-modified (didn't think the bump-stock option really caught on in the market) but definitely was good with the notion of a single shooter.


----------



## Devildoc (Oct 4, 2017)

Muppet said:


> What about an MCI? In P.A. we required medcomm to sign off also but I wonder, how would an MCI of this scale affect the commands lines. A medic cannot stop to contact medcomm for every black tag. How does that work for you guys doc?
> 
> M.



All of the MCI protocols I have worked under have any qualified medical responder (defined as EMS, FF (because they are CPR certified and in most cases FR or EMT certified), and LE (likewise with certs) can declare dead people dead via black tag status without input from a medical authority. 

In the systems in which I worked, all in NC, in standard situations, medics could "call" codes and declare death given a listed set of criteria.

And this state-by-state disparity is why there will be no monumental growth of EMS as a profession, but that's a thread for another day.....


----------



## E.M.D.7/19 (Oct 4, 2017)

I stand corrected MCI allows for some changes in policy, so it's plausible.


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 4, 2017)

Here's an item I'd like to see some official clarification on:  the timeline from when shooting began/reported until police breached the shooters room.  Yesterday and Monday, numerous places reported that it took 72 minutes before LVPD SWAT entered his room.  I don't believe that can be accurate.  Does anyone have better info on that timeline?


----------



## Gunz (Oct 4, 2017)

RetPara said:


> Dame; glad your safe stay that way.
> 
> Thoughts.
> 
> ...



Agree on your assessment of skill re Whitman. He didn't have the target rich environment the LV shooter had, and there was more cover available to the Texas victims. Nor did Whitman have full auto IIRC.


----------



## Crimson (Oct 4, 2017)

Blizzard said:


> Here's an item I'd like to see some official clarification on:  the timeline from when shooting began/reported until police breached the shooters room.  Yesterday and Monday, numerous places reported that it took 72 minutes before LVPD SWAT entered his room.  I don't believe that can be accurate.  Does anyone have better info on that timeline?



As of this morning, major media (Fox, CNN, etc.) is saying that it took 7-15 minutes. 

For the record, I don't choose to find my info via mainstream media, but it is everywhere around me at work.


----------



## trin (Oct 4, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> CBS VP (legal) fired for social media comments.


Good!  Now for the CNN guy who said essentially the same thing.


----------



## The Hate Ape (Oct 4, 2017)

What I'd like clarification on is how the HNIC of security for the venue came to any conclusions that didn't involve having stand-by personnel for both EOD and Active Shooter scenarios for a crowd of over 30k people.

That's some serious gross-negligence shit especially considering the existence of increased hostility on public attractions this year.


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 4, 2017)

LouCar22 said:


> As of this morning, major media (Fox, CNN, etc.) is saying that it took 7-15 minutes.
> 
> For the record, I don't choose to find my info via mainstream media, but it is everywhere around me at work.


Yeah, I saw reports saying firing lasted 9 - 11 minutes.  Then I saw reports SWAT entered room 72 minutes after first 911 calls.  Just trying to reconcile the discrepancy.  

Did he just kill himself after about 10 min or so of firing?  If so, why?  Was he just out of ammo?  Police closing in?  Just had enough?  The disparity in timelines is interesting.


----------



## The Hate Ape (Oct 4, 2017)

Blizzard said:


> Yeah, I saw reports saying firing lasted 9 - 11 minutes.  Then I saw reports SWAT entered room 72 minutes after first 911 calls.  Just trying to reconcile the discrepancy.
> 
> Did he just kill himself after about 10 min or so of firing?  If so, why?  Was he just out of ammo?  Police closing in?  Just had enough?  The disparity in timelines is interesting.



There was reporting that he had emplaced cams on a cart in the hallway to provide early warning detection of first response teams. My understanding is that he took his life during their approach.


----------



## policemedic (Oct 4, 2017)

Muppet said:


> What about an MCI? In P.A. we required medcomm to sign off also but I wonder, how would an MCI of this scale affect the commands lines. A medic cannot stop to contact medcomm for every black tag. How does that work for you guys doc?
> 
> M.



I always thought that was a bit disingenuous. The doc is miles away and relies on the paramedic’s declaration.  That said, in practical terms paramedics pronounce death; we just don’t sign death certificates. 

In a MASCAL no way am I calling for every pronouncement or expectant patient.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 4, 2017)

So what I'm seeing is that firing lasted about 11 minutes.

Reports of shooting start at 10:08 and ended about 10:19.  Between that period of time a security guard attempted entry and was shot in the leg.

It is believed that Paddock shot himself shortly after shooting the guard.

Because the shooting had stopped, they believed he was barricaded and waiting for them.  Based on their internal triggers they breached at 11:30 and found him dead.


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 4, 2017)

That makes more sense.  Another report I heard stated the fire alarms/suppression system on 32nd floor were activated as a result of the smoke generated from the rifles.  This supposedly clued police/security in on his location.  Not sure how accurate that report is but, again, it makes some sense.


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 4, 2017)

Random thoughts.
Would like to know if the Security Guard was responding to gunfire or the smoke detector signal?

Those idiots happy that a bunch of Trump supporters were shot are missing the corollary to that, i.e. Hillary supporter goes on killing spree.  Neither statement really reflects the country's mood.

The "Star Trek" syndrome is really evident, let's wait and see if the suicide note gives clues, and maybe the GF can shed light on this losers motives.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 4, 2017)

Blizzard said:


> That makes more sense.  Another report I heard stated the fire alarms/suppression system on 32nd floor were activated as a result of the smoke generated from the rifles.  This supposedly clued police/security in on his location.  Not sure how accurate that report is but, again, it makes some sense.


Well, I used to believe that hotels had alarms for their windows since almost no hotel has windows that open unless there's a balcony.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 4, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> CBS VP (legal) fired for social media comments...people are pretty stupid on social media, you would think a educated professional would stop and think before posting.....especially a lawyer for the company.
> 
> "CBS has parted ways with one of the company’s top lawyers after she said she was “not even sympathetic” to victims of the Las Vegas shooting because “country music fans often are Republican,” when discussing the mass shooting that unfolded in Las Vegas late Sunday night."
> 
> ...



What bothers me about this is it's probably indicative of an unspoken yet not uncommon mindset within much of the media. The country is divided enough to produce these kind of cruel and senseless thoughts. This stupid motherfucker just blurted it out.


----------



## The Hate Ape (Oct 4, 2017)

A lot of the crime photos were leaked, I'm not going to spend time uploading anything except this one where he seems to have left a note on the table. I would think this will be important to the investigation (or maybe not).


----------



## policemedic (Oct 4, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> Random thoughts.
> Would like to know if the Security Guard was responding to gunfire or the smoke detector signal?
> 
> Those idiots happy that a bunch of Trump supporters were shot are missing the corollary to that, i.e. Hillary supporter goes on killing spree.  Neither statement really reflects the country's mood.
> ...



Star Trek syndrome? New one on me.


----------



## E.M.D.7/19 (Oct 4, 2017)

policemedic said:


> I always thought that was a bit disingenuous. The doc is miles away and relies on the paramedic’s declaration.  That said, in practical terms paramedics pronounce death; we just don’t sign death certificates.
> 
> In a MASCAL no way am I calling for every pronouncement or expectant patient.


 In Nevada under normal circumstances a paramedic cannot declare a person dead


----------



## Frank S. (Oct 4, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> A lot of the crime photos were leaked, I'm not going to spend time uploading anything except this one where he seems to have left a note on the table. I would think this will be important to the investigation (or maybe not).



Atrocious. Those curtains look straight out of the late '70s. Just horrible.


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 4, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> A lot of the crime photos were leaked, I'm not going to spend time uploading anything except this one where he seems to have left a note on the table. I would think this will be important to the investigation (or maybe not).


I saw that as well and thought it could've just as likely been the directions for how to use the tv remote.  We'll see.


----------



## The Hate Ape (Oct 4, 2017)

Blizzard said:


> I saw that as well and thought it could've just as likely been the directions for how to use the tv remote.  We'll see.


Maybe it was a quck-reference guide for that vibrator he has on the table


----------



## policemedic (Oct 4, 2017)

E.M.D.7/19 said:


> In Nevada under normal circumstances a paramedic cannot declare a person dead



Are paramedics in Nevada required to code every patient until they are pronounced by a physician at the hospital?


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 4, 2017)

With the pen being where it is and the note being under the ashtray (presumably to stop it flying away when the windows were broken) my guess is that is in most likelihood a note from him. But what is anybody's guess at this stage.


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 4, 2017)

More info on the security guard:
www.thedailybeast.com/unarmed-security-guard-jesus-campos-took-on-las-vegas-killer-stephen-paddock

Bravo Zulu! 

I wonder if SWAT knew about the cameras before gaining entry and, knowing the guy barricaded the door, if they considered coming through the wall of an adjoining room?


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Oct 4, 2017)

Blizzard said:


> More info on the security guard:
> www.thedailybeast.com/unarmed-security-guard-jesus-campos-took-on-las-vegas-killer-stephen-paddock
> 
> Bravo Zulu!
> ...




One of the heroes that night. 

What a coward the killer was.


----------



## Dame (Oct 4, 2017)

The leaked photos are now the subject of a new investigation. Someone's head is going to roll.
The security guard was most likely sent up in response to calls from the rooms nearest the shooter. He was in a suite and I believe one of the adjoining suites had one of the performer's nanny and 6 month old baby inside.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 4, 2017)

Here's the Timeline of Events put together by Fox:
Las Vegas shooting: Timeline of events


----------



## E.M.D.7/19 (Oct 4, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Are paramedics in Nevada required to code every patient until they are pronounced by a physician at the hospital?


Yes for the most part, they can also call and get a physician to declare t.o.d. on the phone.


----------



## Frank S. (Oct 4, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> Maybe it was a quck-reference guide for that vibrator he has on the table



Or a tip for Housekeepeen...

Imagine her surprise.







Too soon?


----------



## DA SWO (Oct 4, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Star Trek syndrome? New one on me.


No problem exists that can't be solved in a few hours, days, etc.


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 5, 2017)

Based on the timeline shared by the Clark County Sheriff yesterday, it seems clear the actions of the hotel security guard directly lead to the conclusion of the assault/caused the shooter to take his own life.  The security guard approached the door and, although he was shot through the door, my guess is the shooter didn't distinguish him from an actual police officer on his camera.  He felt law enforcement was now closing in and decided to end it.


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 5, 2017)

I am not buying the "he acted alone" story and it seems like the concert may have been a target of opportunity.   With bullet impacts found on her fuel tanks, 610 metres away with clear line of sight.


Las Vegas killer had ‘deadlier target’


----------



## TLDR20 (Oct 5, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> I am not buying the "he acted alone" story and it seems like the concert may have been a target of opportunity.   With bullet impacts found on her fuel tanks, 610 metres away with clear line of sight.
> 
> 
> Las Vegas killer had ‘deadlier target’



I think that it shows that he had very little training or understanding of what he was doing other than shooting into a large crowd. Shooting a tank full of jet fuel from 600+ meters away is extremely unlikely to cause an explosion. Jet Fuel isn't particularly flammable. And the fuel air mixture required for combustion is very high. 

“A machine gun is not going to blow up a tank of fuel,” Boyd said. “Jet fuel itself sitting there in a big wet pile is very hard to ignite. You have to be a very amateur terrorist to think anything like that.”

Las Vegas Strip shooter targeted aviation fuel tanks, source says


----------



## Dame (Oct 5, 2017)

He'd have needed something stronger to penetrate those tanks from that distance. They are double walled. This looked pretty well planned so I'd have to guess those were stray shots.


----------



## TLDR20 (Oct 5, 2017)

Dame said:


> He'd have needed something stronger to penetrate those tanks from that distance. They are double walled. This looked pretty well planned so I'd have to guess those were stray shots.



Agreed. The rounds did penetrate, but a piece of hot metal isn't going to ignite standing jet fuel.


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 5, 2017)

I think it's totally plausible that he did this by himself.  It would seem he was a fairly smart guy.  He was an accountant, so, using the stereotype, he was probably fairly anal/meticulous.  He clearly put some thought and planning into things but, as @TLDR20 stated, I don't see anything he did requiring a terrific amount of skill.  When it came to implementing the plan, he simply fired full auto into a large, relatively captive target; not a particularly difficult skill to acquire.  And, it would appear, he didn't plan to get out alive (if he had done so, that would've been more impressive).  In a nutshell, his plan simply appeared to be this:  keep firing on the crowd until law enforcement knocks on the door.


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 5, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Agreed. The rounds did penetrate, but a piece of hot metal isn't going to ignite standing jet fuel.


Agreed.  Too many movies propagate that fallacy.


----------



## The Hate Ape (Oct 5, 2017)

Blizzard said:


> I think it's totally plausible that he did this by himself.  It would seem he was a fairly smart guy.  He was an accountant, so, using the stereotype, he was probably fairly anal/meticulous.  He clearly put some thought and planning into things but, as @TLDR20 stated, I don't see anything he did requiring a terrific amount of skill.  When it came to implementing the plan, he simply fired full auto into a large, relatively captive target; not a particularly difficult skill to acquire.  And, it would appear, he didn't plan to get out alive (if he had done so, that would've been more impressive).  In a nutshell, his plan simply appeared to be this:  keep firing on the crowd until law enforcement knocks on the door.



Slightly disagree, but with reservation. He scoped multiple venues, even purchased rooms for a similar event in Chicago for which he never ended up attending (previous to Vegas). I believe he planned on escaping and naturally, lost his tactical mindset on time - early warning (security guard mishap) - and target engagement.

I'm really confused by the extent of the arsenal he had up there, for such an intelligent guy, he had a seemingly insane amount of ammunition and weapons scattered about without logic in odd parts of the room. Possible simple/natural tactical oversight? He was shooting on platforms though I assume rather than just holding the rifle - I heard discussion on the glass being a certain rating and up to 800lbs? Can anyone confirm this?

My buddy who is downstairs reminded me of long-barrel SOP in urban hides where if necessary/able - the glass must be breached remotely by the spotter prior to the shot being taken. Same buddy pointed out the hammer and we both agreed that this stubby piece of shit was in no way, shattering out the glass windows like that if this rating were true.

Dude is a 64 year old accountant - not some hard dick who's been on deployment rotation since I was a sperm cell. I'm skeptical of any statement that he hadn't had any assistance whatsoever but never lose faith in the ability to be totally unsurprised.


----------



## TLDR20 (Oct 5, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> Slightly disagree, but with reservation. He scoped multiple venues, even purchased rooms for a similar event in Chicago for which he never ended up attending (previous to Vegas). I believe he planned on escaping and naturally, lost his tactical mindset on time - early warning (security guard mishap) - and target engagement.
> 
> I'm really confused by the extent of the arsenal he had up there, for such an intelligent guy, he had a seemingly insane amount of ammunition and weapons scattered about without logic in odd parts of the room. Possible simple/natural tactical oversight? He was shooting on platforms though I assume rather than just holding the rifle - I heard discussion on the glass being a certain rating and up to 800lbs? Can anyone confirm this?
> 
> ...



I agree with you in every point.


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 5, 2017)

I haven't had more than  cursory look at some of the crime scene photos so forgive the question. Any way he could have unscrewed or unbolted the window? There must be a way to remove them from the pane for maintenance.


----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 5, 2017)

I haven't done the math on it but a small, hard, heavy hammer can generate some pretty intense force.  I don't think it's unreasonable that a couple of whacks might have damaged the window enough to get some shots off.  And failing that, just blasting through with one of his 32 guns would probably work pretty well.9


----------



## Dame (Oct 5, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> I haven't had more than  cursory look at some of the crime scene photos so forgive the question. Any way he could have unscrewed or unbolted the window? There must be a way to remove them from the pane for maintenance.


I have to give a "No" to this one. The last thing any hotel in Vegas wants is a jumper. You cannot open the windows. You cannot remove the windows. If the Sheriff says a device was used then they know best, but I don't see why he wouldn't have just shot it out. They are not bullet proof.
ETA: This would be what they are talking about.


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 5, 2017)

Dame said:


> I have to give a "No" to this one. The last thing any hotel in Vegas wants is a jumper. You cannot open the windows. You cannot remove the windows. If the Sheriff says a device was used then they know best, but I don't see why he wouldn't have just shot it out. They are not bullet proof.



Roger. I haven't been following this one closely the last few days so out of the loop. Thanks.


----------



## Frank S. (Oct 5, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> I haven't done the math on it but a small, hard, heavy hammer can generate some pretty intense force.  I don't think it's unreasonable that a couple of whacks might have damaged the window enough to get some shots off.  And failing that, just blasting through with one of his 32 guns would probably work pretty well.9



About 20 years ago, we had a situation involving an office building's 10th floor window in downtown San Francisco, which was shattered and at risk of completely collapsing. Roped off the sidewalk, FD crew responded to finish it off before a commercial crew boarded it up.
This was a window pane weighing between 6 to 700 pounds. What caused the hole and spider cracks around it, was a golf ball. One guy in his office was practicing his swing and (almost) hit it out of the park (wrong sport analogy, I know).


----------



## AWP (Oct 5, 2017)

This BASE jumper had an off-heading opening and went through the windows of a hotel. I obviously can't speak to the window specifications in both situations, but an off-heading opening wouldn't give a jumper much forward momentum when he hit the glass. I would think even a small hammer with the right window breaking point could shatter the hotel's glass in a heartbeat.


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 5, 2017)

In re: windows, I recall back in early 2001, some dude went to the 51st floor of a Minneapolis office building, walked through the lobby, grabbed a chair, broke out the window and jumped to his death.  There are similar stories out there.  So, while there may certainly be different types of glass, it appears it doesn't take Hercules to bust out some of these windows.

And @AWP ...no bueno!


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 6, 2017)

Not sure if this means much, Paddock took 20 cruises and made some stops in ME countries: Las Vegas shooter took at least 20 cruises - CNN


----------



## CQB (Oct 6, 2017)

I don't think so, his GF is co-operating & would have given details of those trips one way or another.


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 8, 2017)

The "note" on the table was simply his dope charts/notes:
Note in Las Vegas gunman's hotel room included details of bullet trajectory

He put more effort into his shooting that I previously gave him credit for.  Again, pretty meticulous planner.

Maybe sometimes evil is just evil.


----------



## Topkick (Oct 8, 2017)

So far, its appears that the shooter was just detached and didn't care much for other people. He told a neighbor that he put up a privacy fence at his home because he just didn't want to look at people and didn't want people looking at him. In the search for a motive, this may be all you get.


----------



## Florida173 (Oct 8, 2017)

Topkick said:


> So far, its appears that the shooter was just detached and didn't care much for other people. He told a neighbor that he put up a privacy fence at his home because he just didn't want to look at people and didn't want people looking at him. In the search for a motive, this may be all you get.



You think that mentality comes after his cruises?


----------



## TLDR20 (Oct 8, 2017)

I think we should keep looking for connections to ISIS. George Soros also probably played a role. Although in the end I think the most likely thing is this was all part of Jade Helm 2017. 🙄

Sometimes bad people do bad things to good people. It is so easy to project those bad things on entities we find evil, as the thought of one scary guy in the tribe committing some heinous act is too much...

Sometimes though it is just some terrible person with the two things every criminal needs, access and opportunity.


----------



## amlove21 (Oct 8, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> I think we should keep looking for connections to ISIS. George Soros also probably played a role. Although in the end I think the most likely thing is this was all part of Jade Helm 2017. 🙄
> 
> Sometimes bad people do bad things to good people. It is so easy to project those bad things on entities we find evil, as the thought of one scary guy in the tribe committing some heinous act is too much...
> 
> Sometimes though it is just some terrible person with the two things every criminal needs, access and opportunity.


A headline on all the major news outlets the last couple days has been some variation of, "The Reason Why" or whatever.

People are just unwilling to accept the answer of "There wasn't a motive that we can discern; he wasn't connected to any specific group. He just did it."

Reminds me of the scene in the Dark Knight when the Joker talks about people freaking out when there's no plan. 

At this point, it seems like John Q. Public would be much more at ease if we just found out that the shooter was a radicalized muslim, or a disenfranchised anti-government loner, or angry an Antifa nut bent on making a point.


----------



## Salt USMC (Oct 8, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> A headline on all the major news outlets the last couple days has been some variation of, "The Reason Why" or whatever.
> 
> People are just unwilling to accept the answer of "There wasn't a motive that we can discern; he wasn't connected to any specific group. He just did it."
> 
> ...


This hits on one explanation for why conspiracy theories are so popular, and may be more prevalent among certain groups: in a world that is chaotic and completely disordered, it's mentally comforting to believe that there's a malignant force acting behind the scenes that can be beaten
Here's Why People Believe In Conspiracy Theories


----------



## Gunz (Oct 8, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> I think that it shows that he had very little training or understanding of what he was doing other than shooting into a large crowd. Shooting a tank full of jet fuel from 600+ meters away is extremely unlikely to cause an explosion. Jet Fuel isn't particularly flammable. And the fuel air mixture required for combustion is very high.
> 
> “A machine gun is not going to blow up a tank of fuel,” Boyd said. “Jet fuel itself sitting there in a big wet pile is very hard to ignite. You have to be a very amateur terrorist to think anything like that.”
> 
> Las Vegas Strip shooter targeted aviation fuel tanks, source says



Agree.

If I was going to do that, I'd want .50 cal API.


----------



## CDG (Oct 8, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> This hits on one explanation for why conspiracy theories are so popular, and may be more prevalent among certain groups: in a world that is chaotic and completely disordered, it's mentally comforting to believe that there's a malignant force acting behind the scenes that can be beaten
> Here's Why People Believe In Conspiracy Theories



Hence why religion is so popular.  People want to believe there are things that are just out of their control because some great battle for good and evil is constantly being waged, and that's what causes everything. It's a mental security blanket.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 8, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> A headline on all the major news outlets the last couple days has been some variation of, "The Reason Why" or whatever.
> 
> People are just unwilling to accept the answer of "There wasn't a motive that we can discern; he wasn't connected to any specific group. He just did it."
> 
> ...



Some people just want to watch the world burn.

I strongly suspect the motive will never be revealed. I think this guy wanted to create as much chaos as possible before offing himself, take as many people with him as he could. 

If we assume he was meticulous, then the kicker to his plan may have been to purposely leave no clues as to motive...a posthumous riddle to confound the living and deny them any closure.


----------



## racing_kitty (Oct 8, 2017)

Florida173 said:


> You think that mentality comes after his cruises?



Doubtful. When you’re on a cruise ship, you’re essentially cooped up in a floating city for at least a week, stopping for mere hours at whatever port-of-call you put into. Someone with privacy issues isn’t going to pay $6-15k to sit in a 190sq.ft. cabin and dine on room service the whole time, and especially not multiple times. 

Most people get off their cruises feeling better about having seen more of the world. If you come out hating anyone, it’s the stereotypical ugly tourist that seems to pop up every trip.


----------



## Topkick (Oct 8, 2017)

racing_kitty said:


> Doubtful. When you’re on a cruise ship, you’re essentially cooped up in a floating city for at least a week, stopping for mere hours at whatever port-of-call you put into. Someone with privacy issues isn’t going to pay $6-15k to sit in a 190sq.ft. cabin and dine on room service the whole time, and especially not multiple times.
> 
> Most people get off their cruises feeling better about having seen more of the world. If you come out hating anyone, it’s the stereotypical ugly tourist that seems to pop up every trip.



With what's out there so far I personally doubt any terrorist connection, but he took a cruise to the Middle East. At this point I guess it's still a possibility. Gambling is another reason one takes a cruise, right?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 8, 2017)

He took more than one cruise to the ME.  But still not enough data to draw a conclusion.  It hasn't even been 7 days.


----------



## Florida173 (Oct 8, 2017)

And it's not all that uncommon. I'm taking one at the end of the year around the Emirates, Oman, and India.


----------



## AWP (Oct 8, 2017)

Ugh. Cruises to the ME seen as a vector for radicalization? If people want to run that down and buy into it, go right ahead. Problem: you know how many thousands of contractors and tens of thousands of expats are here in the ME? But if people want to chase that truck, they will catch a rear tire.

Pages ago I posted about a motive and @The Hate Ape quite rightly reminded that people can be crazy. Batshit, under the radar crazy and we won't know it until something like this happens. We  keep seeing quotes about the Dark Knight's Joker and I think those are more appropriate than anything concrete like religion or politics right now.


----------



## Topkick (Oct 8, 2017)

AWP said:


> Ugh. Cruises to the ME seen as a vector for radicalization? If people want to run that down and buy into it, go right ahead. Problem: you know how many thousands of contractors and tens of thousands of expats are here in the ME? But if people want to chase that truck, they will catch a rear tire.
> 
> Pages ago I posted about a motive and @The Hate Ape quite rightly reminded that people can be crazy. Batshit, under the radar crazy and we won't know it until something like this happens. We keep seeing quotes about the Dark Knight's Joker and I think those are more appropriate than anything concrete like religion or politics right now.



But just being batshit crazy is boring media.


----------



## Dame (Oct 8, 2017)

AWP said:


> Pages ago I posted about a motive and @The Hate Ape quite rightly reminded that people can be crazy. Batshit, under the radar crazy and we won't know it until something like this happens. We  keep seeing quotes about the Dark Knight's Joker and I think those are more appropriate than anything concrete like religion or politics right now.



The note that everyone thought was a suicide/reason-I-did-it note was actually a bunch of calculations for 32nd floor height/bulletdrop/trajectory calculations. Fucker.


----------



## Andoni (Oct 8, 2017)

Dame said:


> The note that everyone thought was a suicide/reason-I-did-it note was actually a bunch of calculations for 32nd floor height/bulletdrop/trajectory calculations.



It sounds like he threw himself his own death/slaying party and paid for it with the blood of innocents. Fuck him and anyone he cared about.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 10, 2017)

Red Herring:  See also, discussions about cruises and a connection to ISIS.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 10, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> He took more than one cruise to the ME.  But still not enough data to draw a conclusion.  It hasn't even been 7 days.



Thunder, when you are right you are right.  If there is anything we've learned from these events?  

Wait.  

I'm not surprised misinformation spills out, you've got reporters asking questions moments after something happens, average citizens studying available cam-footage, conspiracy tools literally making shit up, and the real authorities trying to makes heads of tails of the scene before the fucking blood is dry.

Las Vegas shooter timeline in chaos after new revelations | Daily Mail Online

- Stephen Paddock fired on a security guard before, not after, he committed mass murder, police said - a revision to the official police timeline that raises huge questions about the Las Vegas killings.

- Previously, police said hero guard Jesus Campos had distracted Paddock from his rampage - being hit in the process - just a minute before police arrived.

- Now it's been confirmed that Campos was shot six minutes before Paddock began firing on crowds.

- That raises questions about what the killer had been planning before Campos disturbed him, and why police did not arrive sooner.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 11, 2017)

More details from Mandalay Bay:
New disclosure shows a casino guard alerted hotel to gunman before Vegas massacre began. So why did it take so long to stop him?


----------



## Florida173 (Oct 14, 2017)

Interesting opinion. I know a few here will dismiss automatically.

Stephen Paddock, the Las Vegas murderer, may have been radicalized


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 14, 2017)

Florida173 said:


> Interesting opinion. I know a few here will dismiss automatically.
> 
> Stephen Paddock, the Las Vegas murderer, may have been radicalized


I took the time to read the whole article. Some interesting points are made and some interesting questions asked.  

Overall I am not one to walk down conspiracy-alley, but I am willing to believe that there is much we are not being told.  

One question I have continued to ask  - why are we not seeing what has to be dozens, if not hundreds of videos showing him hauling his gear into the hotel. What is it that “they” do not want us to see.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 14, 2017)

The footage of the cameras is being withheld because this is an active investigation.  Just like those leaked photos cost someone their job.


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 14, 2017)

Florida173 said:


> Interesting opinion. I know a few here will dismiss automatically.
> 
> Stephen Paddock, the Las Vegas murderer, may have been radicalized



Pretty bad analysis based on one point that has not been corroborated one way or the other but with the assumption it has been. For the record, ISIS claim things all the time that had nothing to do with them. They've been doing that for year.


----------



## Salt USMC (Oct 14, 2017)

This notion that some septuagenarian millionaire with a gambling addiction joined ISIS for no reason at all is pretty hilarious


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Oct 14, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> This notion that some septuagenarian millionaire with a gambling addiction joined ISIS for no reason at all is pretty hilarious



Almost as silly as a really fat dude and his pregnant wife going backpacking in Afghanistan.....


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 14, 2017)

Or that man has been to the moon!


----------



## Grunt (Oct 15, 2017)

ABSOLUTELY NOTHING SURPRISES ME ANYMORE! Nothing.....


----------



## policemedic (Oct 15, 2017)

Clearly none of you poor sods understand the subtleties of what happened in Vegas. I was hoping not to have to dip into this thread too deeply, as it is an active investigation and I don’t want my comments to influence its conduct in any way. But I can see I need to set some of you straight.

I have reached out to reputable, well-known and published sources to get past the RUMINT to the truth.

In separate conversations, both Art Bell and George Noory have expressed to me their rock solid evidence and belief that the Vegas shooting was a collaborative effort between aliens 👽 from Alpha Centauri and the Shadow People.

I hope we can put the conspiracy theories to rest now.


😂


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 15, 2017)




----------



## Frank S. (Oct 15, 2017)

Paging Alex Jones.


----------



## Grunt (Oct 15, 2017)

Those that shan't be satisfied, simply shan't....


----------



## RackMaster (Oct 15, 2017)

Lizard People...


----------



## Dame (Oct 20, 2017)

Just saw the incredible funeral procession for Officer Hartfield. My youngest and I were caught in it due to the freeway system shutdown. We were both able to salute him as his coffin passed us, headed to Boulder City. I'm sure there will be pictures posted later.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Oct 20, 2017)

Dame said:


> Just saw the incredible funeral procession for Officer Hartfield. My youngest and I were caught in it due to the freeway system shutdown. We were both able to salute him as his coffin passed us, headed to Boulder City. I'm sure there will be pictures posted later.



Well done, my girl! Your entire city has been hit so hard by this tragic event.


----------



## Dame (Oct 20, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Well done, my girl! Your entire city has been hit so hard by this tragic event.


We were on our way to his (my son's) radiation treatment (hard enough). We discussed heading down to Boulder City afterward to attend but decided it would be too hard on both of us. We felt blessed to have wished him Godspeed. 

This was the procession along the Strip before it got to us down in Henderson. The Army and Metro worked together on this as he was a veteran of the 82nd Airborne.

Note: Turn down your speakers. It was extremely windy here today.


----------



## Polar Bear (Oct 20, 2017)

Two words “Ancient Aliens”


----------



## TLDR20 (Oct 21, 2017)

Blizzard said:


> I'm not very familiar with Vegas but guessing evac out of Vegas is not a trivial challenge.  I heard it reported that they have only one Level 1 trauma center to serve the region, to include parts of Arizona, California and Utah.  With the number of casualties, I imagine they're even moving some life flights out to LA, Phoenix, Flagstaff, etc.?  Pretty overwhelming.
> 
> Godspeed to all impacted.



They moved one of the casualties all the way back to Baltimore, she was all up in the news here. I think they took her to hopkins, shot in the head, expected to make a full recovery... shit is wild.


----------



## AWP (Oct 21, 2017)

The medical folks involved in caring for the wounded should write books and tell their stories.


----------



## BloodStripe (Oct 21, 2017)

I can't recall any other mass shooting or terrorist attacks that took so long for a motive to come out. 

Interestingly enough as well, I don't think any terrorist group has claimed the Mogadishu blast either.


----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 21, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> I can't recall any other mass shooting or terrorist attacks that took so long for a motive to come out.
> 
> Interestingly enough as well, I don't think any terrorist group has claimed the Mogadishu blast either.



That is very interesting.  All fingers are pointing at Al Shabab, but I wonder if they're like "oh crap that wasn't what we wanted to happen" right now.


----------



## Kaldak (Oct 21, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> That is very interesting.  All fingers are pointing at Al Shabab, but I wonder if they're like "oh crap that wasn't what we wanted to happen" right now.



I was thinking along those same lines. AQ and ISIS have been the main populace's enemy and Al Shabab have been able to fly under the radar. I think they may have hoped ISIS claimed responsibility like they do for every other attack.

Desired results, none of the blame.


----------



## Gunz (Oct 21, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> Lizard People...




Illuminati


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Oct 21, 2017)

.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 25, 2017)

Some updates for the Thread

Of course he wasn't missing, his employer told him to lay low and then they booked Ellen:
Las Vegas guard Jesus Campos resurfaces on Ellen DeGeneres' show

This story just got weird, his brother was arrested on Child Pornography Charges this morning:
Las Vegas mass shooter Stephen Paddock's brother arrested for child porn

Oh, and the shooter's Hard Drive is missing:
Las Vegas shooter's laptop missing its hard drive


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 25, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Some updates for the Thread
> 
> Of course he wasn't missing, his employer told him to lay low and then they booked Ellen:
> Las Vegas guard Jesus Campos resurfaces on Ellen DeGeneres' show
> ...



@ThunderHorse -

I saw every one of those stories today and just shook my head.  Each one weirder than the other.
If this was a movie or TV show, we'd all say "of course he had kiddie porn.  The corrupt federal agents set him up to get rid of him...."
Fortunately this is real-life and that kind of stuff does not happen....<eyeroll....LOL....head banging into wall>   <I miss the old emojis>


----------



## Gunz (Oct 25, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Oh, and the shooter's Hard Drive is missing:
> Las Vegas shooter's laptop missing its hard drive



Well, that fits with my theory, that just killing a shitload of people wasn't enough...that he wanted to mind-fuck everybody after offing himself.


----------



## SpitfireV (Oct 25, 2017)

The child abuse material isn't that surprising. The FBI would have taken his electronics to find out what comms he'd had with his brother and likely have found it that way. Unfortunately that shit is right through society.


----------



## Muppet (Oct 25, 2017)

AWP said:


> The medical folks involved in caring for the wounded should write books and tell their stories.



Agreed. This was a disaster scale MASCAL that required knowledge of "battlefield medicine", both from civ and uniformed personnel there. I am sure there are AAR's/table top discussions going on to review. To add, I get the concept of that but you can practice for MCI's until you are blue in the face, obviously, you will fall back on training, but sometimes, that jerk off, Murphy, fucks you dry and all plans and procedures takes a massive shit and you are planning on the fly, I recall doing that one night on a 3 alarm HAZMAT fire as medical ops sector.

Also, it takes events like this to reinforce further training, especially for civ, use of TQ's. and the such. I'm the weirdo, taking Maria and her 2 neices to the mall. They shop at Justice, Maria loves the rings of course, I am looking for exits, places to bound or hide, I see the A.E.D./trauma kits complete with 25 TQ's, battle dressings and chest seals the mall was given from the local EMS agency. Thank lord, Maria actually has educated the girls on evasion procedures in case of bad shit. Thank God Maria does not live with her head up her ass.....

M.


----------



## Dame (Oct 26, 2017)

Muppet said:


> Agreed. This was a disaster scale MASCAL that required knowledge of "battlefield medicine", both from civ and uniformed personnel there. I am sure there are AAR's/table top discussions going on to review. To add, I get the concept of that but you can practice for MCI's until you are blue in the face, obviously, you will fall back on training, but sometimes, that jerk off, Murphy, fucks you dry and all plans and procedures takes a massive shit and you are planning on the fly, I recall doing that one night on a 3 alarm HAZMAT fire as medical ops sector.
> 
> Also, it takes events like this to reinforce further training, especially for civ, use of TQ's. and the such. I'm the weirdo, taking Maria and her 2 neices to the mall. They shop at Justice, Maria loves the rings of course, I am looking for exits, places to bound or hide, I see the A.E.D./trauma kits complete with 25 TQ's, battle dressings and chest seals the mall was given from the local EMS agency. Thank lord, Maria actually has educated the girls on evasion procedures in case of bad shit. Thank God Maria does not live with her head up her ass.....
> 
> M.



Dammit Man, marry her already!


----------



## Dame (Nov 2, 2017)

Aftermath:
She searched desperately for a man she helped after the Las Vegas shooting. Then she found him 


> She searched desperately for a man she helped after the Las Vegas shooting. Then she found him.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Nov 26, 2017)

[QUO


----------



## Dame (Jul 19, 2018)

Metro PD has been glacially slow to release information on this event. Every month or two they release video footage that is not helpful. People have been screaming for answers with no response. The LV Review Journal released this recently and it is a legitimate piece of the puzzle.

State Radio Network not Utilized in Mass Casualty



> Approximately 1 minute into the shooting I observed a figure in a hotel room on the north side standing in a shooting platform and appeared to be 4-6 feet from the window. The figure was firing the rifle out of his hotel room. I attempted to get on the radio to update the channel and was unsuccessful.
> 
> Metro Detective Stephen Balonek


----------



## Kraut783 (Jul 19, 2018)

People want answers that they might never get. Everyone wants to know why, but that might not be ever known in this case.


----------



## Grunt (Jul 19, 2018)

The most unanswered question of the six in an investigation is the "why." Many cases are solved and adjudicated without ever knowing the "why" of the matter. This may very well be another of them.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 20, 2018)

Nothing is as it seems...


----------



## SpitfireV (Jul 20, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Nothing is as it seems...



You think there was another gunman?


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 20, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> You think there was another gunman?



I mean I'm not an expert in automatic gunfire in an urban environment, but kinda think echo and "pop" are different decimals...

That said, if it was a "one" shooter situation, he is a bad motherfucker, with his "bump stock" guns and casualty list...

And the keep it hush-hush investigation...

In other words, no evidence to bring, but it ain't passing the sniff test.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 20, 2018)

What is there to gain by not saying there were two or more shooters? Security in that only one was caught/ killed?


----------



## Topkick (Jul 20, 2018)

If there were 24 weapons in his room, many of which were different Brands of ARs, I'd think some kind of forensic science and basic math would identify a second shooter. If there is a cover up, we'll probably never know.


----------



## Grunt (Jul 20, 2018)

There are many happenings in our nation that I would consider to be a "cover up."

This incident was not one of them.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 20, 2018)

Not buying two shooters.

Any reasonably skilled marksman with plenty of ammo, semi-auto rifles, large cap mags (with or without bump stocks), rapid firing from an elevated position into a dense mass of thousands of unsuspecting people is going to hit many in a short amount of time...at least until total dispersal.

Plus, there'd be some kind of evidence of collusion between the conspirators during the planning stages. The other guy would've had to buy into the whole program. Sure, there's Columbine...but that was a teen death-pact that involved a prior conspiracy.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 20, 2018)

Just to be clear, I'm not saying there is a "cover up" or that it was multiple shooters. All I'm saying is that the rate of gunfire and the varying distances per gunshot report, don't add up to one shooter in one location. Now that could mean cops were returning fire, could be some local person shooting back, or another shooter. But there are videos of more then one automatic weapon being fired at the same time, videos of automatic gunfire from varying distances, and I'm not talking about echoes,  as again, you can distinguish between the two.

Nevermind the countless reports from both civilians and law enforcement of multiple shooters in multiple locations. Or of that Sheriff bumblefucking the time line, dates and official discription of events about three times before he finally went closed lip.

Again, I'm not saying it's a cover up, I'm not saying there was more then one shooter. I'm just saying the offical story sucks, and doesn't match a lot of the video footage, and there is a lot of other stuff that is simply not explained. That doesn't pass the sniff test for me, especially this being the largest mass shooting in our history. 

Take away from that what you will...


----------



## RackMaster (Aug 5, 2018)

And that's all folks... They seem eager to make this go away.


Las Vegas Shooting Investigation Closed. No Motive Found


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 5, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> And that's all folks... They seem eager to make this go away.
> 
> 
> Las Vegas Shooting Investigation Closed. No Motive Found


----------



## amlove21 (Aug 5, 2018)

We covered it earlier- there might not be a motive. That’s hard to accept. Agree with @Ocoka about the toll and single shooter as well. 

I have some close friends involved in this one, a couple of the SWAT guys that were on the clearance teams- it sucks, but ‘we don’t know why’ might be the answer and not a convoluted conspiracy theory.


----------



## SpitfireV (Aug 5, 2018)

My own personal feeling is that it seemed like he liked control and if so that's a good way to keep it after death.


----------



## Dame (Aug 5, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> We covered it earlier- there might not be a motive. That’s hard to accept. Agree with @Ocoka about the toll and single shooter as well.
> I have some close friends involved in this one, a couple of the SWAT guys that were on the clearance teams- it sucks, but ‘we don’t know why’ might be the answer and not a convoluted conspiracy theory.


The "We don't know why," I believe. But no motive at all? No.
He had a motive. We just don't know what it was.


----------



## Kraut783 (Aug 5, 2018)

Dame said:


> He had a motive. We just don't know what it was.



This happens more than people realize, this one just happens to be high profile and has a lot of peoples attention.


----------



## amlove21 (Aug 5, 2018)

Dame said:


> The "We don't know why," I believe. But no motive at all? No.
> He had a motive. We just don't know what it was.


That’s the thing- he might have had zero motive at all, which is why we might not have a motive. 

It’s a really hard possibility to accept.


----------



## Kraut783 (Aug 5, 2018)

Oh, he had a motive.....probably one that does not make sense "evil leprechauns are uniting in Vegas....I must prepare and stop them...no one must know, only I know the truth"


----------



## Gunz (Aug 5, 2018)

Dame said:


> The "We don't know why," I believe. But no motive at all? No.
> He had a motive. We just don't know what it was.




I suspect he just hated the world, hated people, had decided to off himself and take as many with him as he could.

Aztec kings, Egyptian pharos liked to be buried with their retainers, servants, various human sacrifices. Some people are so scared of death they want a lot of company along for the ride.

This guy just happened to want a infamous legacy.


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## policemedic (Aug 5, 2018)

Crazy doesn’t always need a motive, and whatever compelled him to do this is likely something the sane won’t comprehend.


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Aug 5, 2018)

I agree with all of the above. I think we did society a huge disservice by ever making his name public. Fuck him.


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## digrar (Aug 5, 2018)

Could you imagine the conspiracy theories if his name wasn't released?
 I get the not wanting to give these mass murderers any notoriety angle, but the tinfoil hat brigade are already frothing at the bung hole over most of these shootings. Hiding their identity would tip them over the edge.


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## SpitfireV (Aug 5, 2018)

Not to mention the whole transparency in government thing.


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## Grunt (Aug 6, 2018)

I still can't understand why people can't simply accept "crazy" as a legitimate motive....


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## Gunz (Aug 6, 2018)

Sometimes "crazy" is twisted logic or rationalization.

Imagine a person who is godless, who has no conscience, no spirituality, who believes we are just parasitic life-forms feeding off a minuscule speck of matter in the farthest reaches of a stark, mechanical universe...where arbitrary laws and rules invented by these parasitic creatures have no consequence, where there is no after-life, only an austere numb dark nothingness for everybody. These are the thoughts of emotionless people who've given up on the reality and sanctity of everyday life and to the adherence of any and all civilized conduct.


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Aug 6, 2018)

His name doesn't have to stay secret to keep it out of the media. Just like when a crime goes down and they no logner bring up the race of the perp.

I'm not talking about making the police report and associated investigation any different than it normaly is. If someone wants to do a local record search have at it. I'm speaking about the guys name, background and family being all over TV and the internet. 

"Suspect in Las Vegas Shooting Sent $$ to Philipines Beforehand" No pictures, recognition, none of that.


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## Blizzard (Aug 6, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> This guy just happened to want a infamous legacy.


Agree with your post but it's kind of interesting to me...I don't recall the guy's name at all.  I'd have to look it up.  I suspect I'm not alone.

Despite the horrific numbers killed, he's no more infamous/notorious than any other mass shooter.  I may remember some of the events but, aside from the two Columbine kids, I don't recall the names of any of these shooters.   Maybe because it's so common place or maybe because there is nothing particularly outstanding about them.

In general, people tend to only remember firsts (which is probably why I remember the Columbine kids).  Some remember second.  Almost no one remembers anything after that.  So, while I may remember the event, I'll probably never remember the guy who did it.  That's all fine by me but it's still interesting they probably won't achieve the notoriety they desire.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 27, 2020)

Iadnerit said:


> I still remember this event and it’s very scary. I was in Vegas then, but I was in a casino there. And I understand that there are a lot of people in Vegas and this event could have become much bigger. That's why I decided to give up the casino in Vegas and move to an online casino😅. And it turned out to be very cool. Thanks to the reviews at<link redacted> I found a wonderful casino Maneki. This is one of the best casinos in Switzerland, which offers very cool conditions. Now I can safely and safely play in the casino and I like it. I recommend it to other casino fans if you think about your safety.


Yep.  Something about your profile stunk from get.  Thanks for the link and your posts-to-date calling yourself out as either a troll or a bot!  

With that....


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