# MARSOC- MOS CREATION AND TOURS



## tigerstr (Sep 25, 2008)

Just read an article on MARSOC, in Marine Corps Gazette ( on line version). The author reasons that 5 year tours for enlisted and officers and then reassignment with possible return for another tour, is not enough and advocates the creation of a MARSOC –MOS enabling MARSOC personnel to rotate between operating force tours B- billets and joint-staff assignments in  A SOF field closed loop.

If I understood well, he  states that captains who are selected for MARSOC units will get a 5 year tour after the B-billet period and so will miss command of a regular company and Battalion XO position, which will severely hamper their chances for Battalion Command in  “line” Battalions, because of board members not fully  understanding  his MARSOC command positions at the MSOT, MSOC level.

Same for NCOs. He states that a MARSOC Staff Sgt will go after in a B Billet and will still be a SSGT when his peers have been promoted because he will still not have passed from a Platoon SGT position   

Is this accurate? 

I thought that Captains could volunteer for MARSOC after first operating forces tour ( junior Captain level) for a 2-3 year tour , INSTEAD of a B-Billet position, then get to EWS, get a Company Command, and then come back  at  O-4 level for MSOC command, without any handicaps for Battalion Command. 

Αny opinions on the subject?


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## AssadUSMC (Sep 25, 2008)

I'm not sure about the promotion requirements and how they're tied to tours, but if MARSOC wants a sustainable force, they need to keep their operators and leaders in-house.  B-Billet rotations, cross-training tours with other SOF units, etc. would all keep guys fresh.  Once you have that institutional knowledge and well-trained guys, you have to keep it and grow it.

I could never understand (short of personal/family reasons) why guys (esp. enlisted) would rotate out of Force, SF, Delta, etc. into "the regular units", and making them move makes less sense.


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## Trip_Wire (Sep 25, 2008)

AssadUSMC said:


> I'm not sure about the promotion requirements and how they're tied to tours, but if MARSOC wants a sustainable force, they need to keep their operators and leaders in-house.  B-Billet rotations, cross-training tours with other SOF units, etc. would all keep guys fresh.  Once you have that institutional knowledge and well-trained guys, you have to keep it and grow it.
> 
> I could never understand (short of personal/family reasons) why guys (esp. enlisted) would rotate out of Force, SF, Delta, etc. into "the regular units", and making them move makes less sense.




I didn't want to post here until a Marine spoke up. In reviewing your post and based on SF experience, I must agree with your summation 100%.;)


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## 0699 (Sep 25, 2008)

The funny part of this is that one of the ways MARSOC was "sold" to the Corps is that it would allow us to get people trained on SOCOMs dime, then return to the FMF with the new knowledge.  Everyone knew it was BS then (and still is today), but it worked.

Anyone that thinks we can perform at the same level as SFC with 3-5 year tours has their head up their @$$...


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## AssadUSMC (Sep 25, 2008)

If I was still in, I would have definitely indoc'ed for MARSOC.  And if I had gone through the pipeline, did a SOCOM tour, and then had to go back to FMF (even as a Force or Radio Recon guy), I'd be pissed.

A few of my friends left the recon community for less and went to TF (Insert color here).


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## tigerstr (Sep 26, 2008)

*AssadUSMC* "*If I was still in, I would have definitely indoc'ed for MARSOC.  And if I had gone through the pipeline, did a SOCOM tour, and then had to go back to FMF (even as a Force or Radio Recon guy), I'd be pissed.*
*A few of my friends left the recon community for less and went to TF (Insert color here)"*

What do you mean "for less" and can you explain what "TF (insert colour)" is?

Why would you be pissed to go back to FMF even as a FR or Radio Recon team member?  

They may be outside SOF ( by the way I read that 1st Force Recon will be re-instated in the regular forces  with members of  Delta Company/ 1st Recon Bat) but I always thought they ara in the same league if not better than most.

Forgive my ignorance in these "everyday life" issues. I am an outsider, so rotating say between MARSOC and FR or RR doesnt sound like such a bad deal. 

I understand budgeting and gear is much better in SOF units but is this enough to make somebody leave the Marines and join the Navy/Army/Airforce?


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## AWP (Sep 26, 2008)

We will not discuss numbered or colored task forces.

Carry on.


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## AssadUSMC (Sep 26, 2008)

tigerstr said:


> What do you mean "for less" and can you explain what "TF (insert colour)" is?
> 
> Why would you be pissed to go back to FMF even as a FR or Radio Recon team member?



As Freefalling said, I won't expound on the TF part - either you know or you don't.

As for my other comment, once you've grasped the golden ring (i.e. MARSOC), you don't want to take backward steps.  Force Recon was most certainly the golden ring (though I know some ANGLICO snipers that would argue), but now MARSOC is the pointiest end of the Marine spear.

Don't get me wrong, even as a lil ol' 0331 machine gunner, I thought I was the shit.  But as you progress on to bigger and better things, it's tough to step back (unless you've got family or personal reasons).  When I said "for less", I mean guys who were annoyed with their CO, etc. and found another way to get their kicks, rather than the MARSOC example of being forced to return to the regular FMF.


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## tigerstr (Sep 26, 2008)

Note: You got me temporarily mixed up with the TF (insert color) thing. Freefalling clarified to the extend needed. Regarding your view, I get what you mean. 

But, I suspect the Corps has done some thinking on the subject. 

Between FR ( as mentioned earlier there is info that it will make a come back in the active forces), the Recon Bats, the evolving concept of SC MAGTFs and the regular advisors (Marine Corps Training and Advisory Group) created, it seems that there will be positions for MSOB and MSOAG guys to help passing on extremely valuable skills.

What is best for the Institution is not always better for the individual. 

The thing is who comes first?

Also it seems that the Corps is pushing its Infantry in the SOF direction, (see Combat Hunter, Distributed Operations etc) as the Army gets more "expeditionary". 

So in this context it probably makes sense for the Institution to try and pass skills and experience of senior MARSOC NCOs and Os around.   

Same thing happened with FR Some people left to be PJs or SF, but some remain and as I understand go on to make very respected and "iconic" I would say, SNCOs in line Battalions.


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## AssadUSMC (Sep 26, 2008)

I totally see where you're coming from.  What I am suggesting is that the folks stay organic to MARSOC, but can do tours teaching at SOI, teaching at advanced schools, working in warfighter labs, etc.  It would be a good break from a crazy op tempo and pass on knowledge at the same time.

You are 100% correct that knowledge is useless unless it's shared.  (It's kind of how I look at this site...)


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## 0699 (Sep 26, 2008)

This thread has me more confused than Tipper Gore at a KISS concert... :confused:

BTW, no snipers at ANGLICO.


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## imdefaninja (Sep 27, 2008)

Not trying to look stupid but What is Anglico? Ive seen them around but I dont know what they are


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## Pete031 (Sep 27, 2008)

Not sure if I am 100 % correct, but I think they are Air Naval Gunfire Liason Company.
I interpret them to be something like a JTAC for the Marines. But more of a Unit, then an individual attached to something else.

Of course I may be wrong though.


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## AssadUSMC (Sep 27, 2008)

0699 said:


> This thread has me more confused than Tipper Gore at a KISS concert... :confused:
> 
> BTW, no snipers at ANGLICO.



That must be a recent change... My buddy was a STA platoon sgt in 1st ANGLICO in the '90s.  I know ANGLICO went away for a little while when I was in, but then it came back.  Did they pull the STA element from them?  To me, it makes more sense to keep them in.


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## 0699 (Sep 27, 2008)

Never been STA in ANGLICO to the best of my knowledge.  Mostly artillery officers & pilots and 0861s (Forward Observers) and 0621s (RTOs) on the enlisted side, along with all the needed support (MT, supply, armory) Marines.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ANGLICO
http://www.iimefpublic.usmc.mil/public/iimefpublic.nsf/unitsites/anglico

BTW, it's an abbreviation, so it's always capitalized.


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## AssadUSMC (Sep 28, 2008)

Well I've known 3 folks very well in ANGLICO. One was a STA sniper, one was a Navy FAC, and one was an arty FO.  Two of the three are good friends of mine...

I'll have to check with my buddy again (the sniper) - he was the one who told me about ANGLICO before I ever enlisted.  :uhh:

Regardless, ANGLICO is a good idea that needs to stick around.


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## 0699 (Sep 28, 2008)

AssadUSMC said:


> Well I've known 3 folks very well in ANGLICO.



I know a bunch too. 



AssadUSMC said:


> One was a STA sniper, one was a Navy FAC, and one was an arty FO.  Two of the three are good friends of mine...
> 
> I'll have to check with my buddy again (the sniper) - he was the one who told me about ANGLICO before I ever enlisted.  :uhh:



That's why I said "to the best of my knowledge".  I am FAR from expert, but I have done some research.



AssadUSMC said:


> Regardless, ANGLICO is a good idea that needs to stick around.



I agree!!


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## AssadUSMC (Sep 29, 2008)

I am deferring to the expert - 0699 knows of what he speaks.  I need to question my buddies!!


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## buffalo61 (Sep 29, 2008)

I have a couple of friends that are now senior enlisted that were part of ANGLICO back before they were disbanded.  It wasn't uncommon for them to send 0861's and RO's to Ranger school and sniper school.  But I don't believe that they ever had any 03's in a STA billet.  They could have lat-moved into the 0861 community, since that wasn't very uncommon back then, or even now.


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## tigerstr (Sep 29, 2008)

Seems that ANGLICO managed to hijack this MARSOC thread for good!!! 

How about getting back to MARSOC and officer/enlisted career paths? Is there some short of path and "volunteering window" for officers and/or enlisted, or is it rather random like whenever you volunteer, (and pass) you stay for 5, then get out? 

Hard to imagine this as OPSEC-sensitive so I am asking.

If someone knows and wants to share info/opinions, thanks in advance. After all it seems that this career path ( and the establishment of a MARSOC MOS of some sort, at least for enlisted) is a big debating point in the Corps right now.


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## Rabid Badger (Sep 29, 2008)

tigerstr,

If you're still in the Greek Air Force, you really should come over for an official visit. You would be able to obtain all the answers you want from official channels.

We'll answer some, but not all of your questions.

You know the deal. :uhh:


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## x SF med (Sep 29, 2008)

Everybody watch out what is being said and how it's being said.  You know why I'm saying this.


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## SCCO_Marine (Nov 4, 2008)

buffalo61 said:


> I have a couple of friends that are now senior enlisted that were part of ANGLICO back before they were disbanded.  It wasn't uncommon for them to send 0861's and RO's to Ranger school and sniper school.  But I don't believe that they ever had any 03's in a STA billet.  They could have lat-moved into the 0861 community, since that wasn't very uncommon back then, or even now.



I'm new to this site but wanted to jump in.  In SCCO we worked w/ANGLICO & the unit they were after they got disbanded MLE, the Marine Liason Element, then reformed in '02.

And like what was said in the quote they never had a STA Plt per se but had 1 sniper billet open per team which usually went to one of their 0861's FireSupportmen/JTAC or 0621 Radio Operators.

Their teams were called FirePower Control Teams, FCTs.  They were 2-6 Marines & sailors. 

One per team, usually enlisted, would get sent to SSBC.

It was 1 Marine/Navy FAC or Arty/Naval Gun Off, 1 0861 SNCO, 1-2 0861, 2-3 RTOs.  Usually they deployed as 4 or 6 & then broke down if necessary.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Mar 7, 2009)

honestly did not know these facts in relation to time with MARSOC and such, was under the apparently mistaken impression it was similar to Recon in that it was a new MOS and once you were in you stayed in unless otherwise decided. so MARSOC at the momment is basically a b-billet and once your time is up you go back to FMF? I'm speaking from personal experience but I dont know any grunts that would wanna go from Special Op's back to a line company.....i'd foresee a definite friction at working in a special op's environment and then shifting back to a line company.....resentment from higher up's and those jealous of one's accomplishments, a definite friction in training/operational styles.....granted these are just opinions, but ones I think are founded.  

~JohnnyBoy


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## TJT0321 (Mar 11, 2009)

As far as I can tell, MARSOC isn't getting an MOS until they sort out the ITC course. I've got a buddy over there who's part of the training team, and he tells me they're a few months from getting that course finalized. For now, if you're an 0321 then you can skip ITC and go straight to a team after passing Assessment & Selection. 

I was told by one of their recruiters that once your tour is up, then you go back to the fleet. I assume that means a Force Company once they stand back up, or a Recon Bn. At any rate, like someone said before, the Marine Corps is training its best marines on SOCOM's dime and then sucking them back in to spread the knowledge around.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Mar 11, 2009)

so what would that mean for those that are not from the Recon battalions or Force? I'm a 0311 getting ready for A&S. I'm aware that upon sucessful completion of A&S its off to 9 months at the MARSOC school at LeJune. So would that (and keep in mind i'm saying this all under the impression I make it past selection to begin with, but its all a mindset and i'm being positive mind you) mean that after a tour i'd go back to a line company, or be shifted to Recon or Force? I dont see how the latter could happen if your dont currently hold the 0321 MOS. Personally, i'd not wanna suddenly shift from a special operations community and work back to being another grunt in a line platoon...I mean isn't that why alot of people go for special operations? Cause they wanted more than a "normal" grunts life? Among other things that is....strictly speaking from a outsider's view on the matter, if i'm speaking out of my ass then by all means feel free to correct me. 

~JohnnyBoy


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## Scotth (Mar 11, 2009)

JohnnyBoyUSMC said:


> <<snip>>
> ...I mean isn't that why alot of people go for special operations? Cause they wanted more than a "normal" grunts life? Among other things that is....strictly speaking from a outsider's view on the matter, if i'm speaking out of my ass then by all means feel free to correct me.
> 
> ~JohnnyBoy


 
As an outsider looking in I would image that is the motivating factor for the individual Marine but the Marine Corp leadership is looking at it from the perspective of the Marine Corp as a whole.  Training with someone elses money and then using that training to improve the Corp as a whole.  Competing goals.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Mar 11, 2009)

Appreciate that Scotth, and your right and I can understand the improving the Corps as a whole, and I agree completely. I just dont see it happening in that aspect....for the most part, and this is speaking as a grunt and someone who knows how the grunts work, alot of infantry commanders might or might not take those individual skills, schools, and learned abilities of a special operator and have the integrated or contributed to their unit. In Ramadi, we had a company commander who I to this day admire and respect, but refused to have Scout/Snipers attached to the company because he did not see the benefit of having them around or appreciated their skills. I'm simply afraid of the same sort of thing happening, and would think that those that come from a special operations background would be better suited staying in that area as opposed to "spreading the wealth" to the Corps....otherwise we mine as well put the entire Marine infantry through special op's training and schools and see where it takes us. Again, simply putting out my humble opinion as a outsider looking in, but also giving my input and experiences as a infantryman into the mix. 

~JohnnyBoy


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## TJT0321 (Mar 11, 2009)

To answer your question JohnnyBoy, I talked to my buddy and he tells me that they're trying to get an MOS established for MSOB personnel who've completed the Individual Training Course, but it is unlikely to be a primary MOS. In other words it would be just another secondary MOS like being a Marksmanship instructor. Tours are 5 years long, and ITC is 9 months or so. After your tour, you go wherever the Marine Corps needs you. Probably to a B-Billet like recruiting, MSG, or drill instructor, which is generally required for everyone anyway. You'll probably pick up staff or gunny by then and will end up as a platoon sergeant somewhere or back in MARSOC as a senior leader in a team. 

Regardless, 5 years is a long time to be operating by anyone's standards so a b-billet might be a nice break before you get back into the action.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Mar 15, 2009)

appreciate the input TJT....out of general curiosity, anyone know the actual "pipeline" for MARSOC operators? I'm aware that MARSOC is in need of operators as fast as they can get them from the school house to a team in a MSOB....but what is the pipeline as far as schools and courses go once a Marine is done with his nine months at the school house in LeJune? 

~JohnnyBoy


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## TJT0321 (Mar 15, 2009)

Once a marine goes through A&S and passes, then they go to ITC if they're not already Recon Marines. After that, Jump, Dive, SERE, Language, shooting package, Breacher, Sniper, Freefall, and whatever else they can get you into. I think eventually they want to make ITC a pipeline school where you get all of that stuff in a row, but right now it's not set up that way. 

We'll see what happens in the future, but for right now it's random. They get whatever school seats are available and there's no particular order to it. You've just gotta make sure you're available to go at a moments notice. You may not even get any schools right away because they may throw you into a team that's in the middle of a deployment workup. Right now they're so short handed that it's anyone's guess.


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## Teufel (Mar 16, 2009)

There is no "pipeline".  From my understanding talking to my friends, the construct is similiar to how it was with Force.  Need a breacher in your team?  A sniper? On a freefall team?  Dive team?  You get some training during the work up like Dynamic Assault/ CQB, HAHO, but most schools are "as required" or for your professional development.  Schools take time and you can't go to all of them within one schools phase so you have to prioritize.


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## masonea (Jun 21, 2009)

Disclaimer: My mobile only lets me type 200 characters at a time. So I may have to post several replies for this.
I am consiering reentry back into the Corps. Beibg an 0411, I am thinking a lat move.


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## masonea (Jun 21, 2009)

If I do a lat move to 0321, do I go to ITB, then to BRC? If so is it better to just come back as an 0411, and try A&S? I'm not too keen on this rotate back to the fleet if my primary is still 0411.


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## Teufel (Jun 22, 2009)

masonea said:


> If I do a lat move to 0321, do I go to ITB, then to BRC? If so is it better to just come back as an 0411, and try A&S? I'm not too keen on this rotate back to the fleet if my primary is still 0411.



If you go to A&S as an 0411 you will go to MCSOAG.  As an 0321 you will go to MSOB.  You would have to go to ITB and BRC.  Now you will have to go to RIP and be a roper before ITB,


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## masonea (Jun 22, 2009)

Teufel - Thank you for the info. I was gettign confused by all the different acronyms being used in the MarAdmins I've been reading. One mentions ITC for lat movers going 0321. And ITC is also talked about for MARSOC. It seemed odd that one would have to go through 9 months of ITC, and then go to 3 months of BRC. Is there still RIP on the east coast? Right before I left batallion they were getting ready to move over to Geiger. But now there is no ARS. Also, I read that RIP may be going away, and they are using BRC to filter guys that are not ready. Any truth to that.

I understand some things are still up in the air. I'm just trying to make sure I have my mind on the right path before I turn a package in. Thanks again.


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## Teufel (Jun 22, 2009)

masonea said:


> Teufel - Thank you for the info. I was gettign confused by all the different acronyms being used in the MarAdmins I've been reading. One mentions ITC for lat movers going 0321. And ITC is also talked about for MARSOC. It seemed odd that one would have to go through 9 months of ITC, and then go to 3 months of BRC. Is there still RIP on the east coast? Right before I left batallion they were getting ready to move over to Geiger. But now there is no ARS. Also, I read that RIP may be going away, and they are using BRC to filter guys that are not ready. Any truth to that.
> 
> I understand some things are still up in the air. I'm just trying to make sure I have my mind on the right path before I turn a package in. Thanks again.



I don't think the Marine Corps will sign off on ITC graduates getting the 0321 MOS, the MOS field cannot support it.  Right now there are going to be 4 battalions in MARSOC with MSOB and MCSOAG, not including the support structure and school houses etc.  There are three recon battalions.  You do the math; that would add up to an overwhelming increase in 0321s which would have tremendous 2nd and 3rd order effects on the reconnaisance community.  

Why does it seem odd for ITC graduates to go to BRC?  They don't learn anything about reconnaissance at ITC.  The premier reconnaissance course in the Marine Corps is BRC.  RIP is coming back.   There is no ARS because all Recon Marines go to BRC at SOI west.  BRC isn't filtering crap.  When I went to BRC in Coronado, the course had a 40% pass rate.  Now it has a 90% pass rate.  This is one of the reasons RIP is coming back; we need to reset the baseline standard.


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## masonea (Jun 22, 2009)

Holy Shit! 90% Hopefully RIP is back in place by the time I get my shit in order. I'm not as fast as I used to be. So every little bit helps. Thanks for all of the info, Sir.


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## mikefivebravo (Jul 7, 2009)

Teufel said:


> RIP is coming back.   There is no ARS because all Recon Marines go to BRC at SOI west.  BRC isn't filtering crap.  When I went to BRC in Coronado, the course had a 40% pass rate.  Now it has a 90% pass rate.  This is one of the reasons RIP is coming back; we need to reset the baseline standard.



Where did you hear RIP is coming back?  From what I understand, BRC/MART was created at SOI to take that burden away from the Recon BNs so they could focus on training (instead of recruiting, screening, and entry-level preparation).


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## Teufel (Jul 7, 2009)

mikefivebravo said:


> Where did you hear RIP is coming back?  From what I understand, BRC/MART was created at SOI to take that burden away from the Recon BNs so they could focus on training (instead of recruiting, screening, and entry-level preparation).



From SOI.  BRC told us (1st Recon Bn) to stand RIP back up.  I'm sure that 2nd was told the same thing.  We already have the cadre in place and we will be receiving students shortly.  This will only apply for lat movers.  BRC will continue to train pipeliners.


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## Hitman2/3 (Jul 9, 2009)

Teufel said:


> From SOI.  BRC told us (1st Recon Bn) to stand RIP back up.  I'm sure that 2nd was told the same thing.  We already have the cadre in place and we will be receiving students shortly.  This will only apply for lat movers.  BRC will continue to train pipeliners.



OUR PRAYERS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED.


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## nograndpas (Aug 23, 2009)

in a quick response to tigerstr's comment, it absolutely, completely in all sense of the meaning is more than enough reason to leave the Corps if you know you're going to get kicked back out to the fleet after only five years in MARSOC. it's a feel good way of making sure someone who didn't make it through selection or never could for that matter, doesn't feel like there's an elitist group of marines out there. 
The reason navspecwarfare and army sf does so well is the environment the men who are involved in it maintain. they don't have to worry about making some fat ass who's never went to a&s feel like a lesser Marine. in about ten to 15 years when all of the grandfathered Marines are either booted to the fleet or assessed and selected and went through the no shit marsoc pipeline, Marsoc will be worth being in. until then, there's just too many grandpas and "msosg" with huge socom car window stickers who've never earned their right to be in marsoc hanging around. that's my beef and that's my peace.


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## Teufel (Oct 2, 2009)

Hitman2/3 said:


> OUR PRAYERS HAVE BEEN ANSWERED.



It's only for lat movers.  The boot campers don't have to go.... I was hoping it would be like it used to be.  We'll see if it picks up steam.


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## Hitman2/3 (Oct 3, 2009)

Teufel said:


> It's only for lat movers.  The boot campers don't have to go.... I was hoping it would be like it used to be.  We'll see if it picks up steam.



Too bad.


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## Teufel (Oct 4, 2009)

Hitman2/3 said:


> Too bad.



Yeah I am bummed too.


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## 25&5 (Oct 4, 2009)

I think 2nd Recon is doing something similar as well.  Have a few studs that were "talking shit" to one another about how one had to do amphib stuff and the other missed out on it.  Small changes are being made, and things are getting a little better all the time.


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## 25&5 (Oct 5, 2009)

Belay my last. It wasn't a RIP, but lat-movers did get a taste of some basic reconnaissance training over at 2nd.


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