# New .45 on it way but which one????



## 08steeda (Aug 17, 2009)

Hi gang,

Looking at getting a new 45.

Looking at the Kimber Tactical Custom II

http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/tactical/tactical_custom_II/

and the Springfield TRP

http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?version=26


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## 8'Duece (Aug 17, 2009)

08steeda said:


> Hi gang,
> 
> Looking at getting a new 45.
> 
> ...




I own both pistols.  Please save yourself the hassle and go with the SA TRP. :cool:


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 17, 2009)

Kimber Tactical Custom II, it's a pure tack driver....


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## Centermass (Aug 17, 2009)

If you're going to drop that kind of change for a Kimber, compare it to this:  

http://www.paraord.com/new/product_pistol_large.php?id=55

Just my opinion, but in 45 ACP world, I think Para Ordinance is extremely under rated. :2c:


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## HOLLiS (Aug 17, 2009)

I was going to say buy both until Centermass chimed in, now I would say buy all three............. More it preferred to less.


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## P. Beck (Aug 17, 2009)

I've had one of these since they were un-gettable.

http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/custom/warrior/

I've got no complaints.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 17, 2009)

Centermass said:


> If you're going to drop that kind of change for a Kimber, compare it to this:
> 
> http://www.paraord.com/new/product_pistol_large.php?id=55
> 
> Just my opinion, but in 45 ACP world, I think Para Ordinance is extremely under rated. :2c:



Para's are shit hot pistols, you will see all three at most IDPA match's... I like Kimber's over SA, but its all on what you want to spend and what your going to do with it.


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## HoosierAnnie (Aug 17, 2009)

One word, Springfield. I will be bringing my SA "Champion" to the KY shoot if ya wanna do a lil test drivin

FYI - Also, I'm bringing an AMT "Hardballer" long slide .45 to the shoot.  It could be looking for a new home.  Its just waaayyy too nose heavy for me to control


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## 08steeda (Aug 18, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> I own both pistols.  Please save yourself the hassle and go with the SA TRP. :cool:



What make the TRP your choice?

What about the Kimber do you NOT like?

Just trying to get some objective views/info!

Thanks


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## 08steeda (Aug 18, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> Kimber Tactical Custom II, it's a pure tack driver....



Yep, my brother shoot IDPA and has 3 Kimbers. His favorite is his Tactical Custom II. The only thing he did was put a heavier full length guide rod and I can shoot it better than he does! Which pisses him off!


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## 08steeda (Aug 18, 2009)

Centermass said:


> If you're going to drop that kind of change for a Kimber, compare it to this:
> 
> http://www.paraord.com/new/product_pistol_large.php?id=55
> 
> Just my opinion, but in 45 ACP world, I think Para Ordinance is extremely under rated. :2c:



Not that I will be carrying it that often but I want a single stack not the high capacity double stack of 45's. Looks sweet though!!!

I had heard that P.O. got their shit together and produces some great weapons now. Unfortunately they are still suffering from past years of sub-standard manufacturing!

Never shot one!

Thx


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## 08steeda (Aug 18, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> Para's are shit hot pistols, you will see all three at most IDPA match's... I like Kimber's over SA, but its all on what you want to spend and what your going to do with it.




Most likely Match and IPSC. Might try IDPA stuff locally!


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## 08steeda (Aug 18, 2009)

P. Beck said:


> I've had one of these since they were un-gettable.
> 
> http://www.kimberamerica.com/pistols/custom/warrior/
> 
> I've got no complaints.



Sweet shooter! My local shop has the Desert Warrior in their case now.


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## arizonaguide (Aug 18, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> Please save yourself the hassle and go with the SA TRP.


100% agree. :cool:


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## 08steeda (Aug 18, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> 100% agree. :cool:



Plus it will go nicely with my Springfield M1A Super-Match!!! I am partial to SA!

Just wish I could afford a WhiteFeather!!!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 18, 2009)

As I said it really boils down to what you’re going to use it for…

I do not dislike SA and I owned a TRP (Operator MC) for about 5 years, I thought it was the cat’s ass until I started shooting Kimber. In comparison the Kimber’s are more accurate then the SA’s I have fired and that has been the majority opinion of most of my buddies who shoot 1911’s. The big plus of SA is they bore their chambers slightly larger to reduce failure to feeds and so that they will feed hollow points. But when ever you do that, you are losing accuracy, and being more concerned about accuracy (vz using hollow points) I prefer a 1911 with tighter tolerances. Especially the chamber…

In a “tactical” since you want the friendly medium, you want the highest degree of accuracy with out diminishing reliability. I find that to be in the Kimber TC II, it maintains accuracy the equivalent of a ball-gun but feeds just about anything you put in it (with in reason). The TRP I owned never failed to feed except for a few faulty magazines, but as I said above the accuracy level was night and day (the difference between a 2-3.5 inch group (TRP) and a 1-1.5 inch group (TC II) at 25 yards) for a tactical gun that is huge…

The problem I find (not saying anyone here) is that a lot of people can’t shoot as good as the gun and due to this form opinions based on pure reliability issues (ie. Snuffy’s Kimber wont feed all JHP, but his TRP will so his TRP is better) and that is really not the case.  If I am going to carry it in all elements and run any type of ammo and the accuracy can lack b/c your shooting 15 yards and in, well go with the TRP. If you are going to keep it clean and properly lubricated, shoot for accuracy out to 50+ yards and want to be dead nuts on, go with the TC II.:2c:


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## 08steeda (Aug 18, 2009)

Thanks JAB! I made my choice and I am going with the Kimber Tactical Custom II. It is almost 800.00 less than the SA TRP. So I will have money to get leather and goodies (titanium guide rod, extra mags, ammo, etc).

The reviews and the recommendations I have found online bear your experience JAB. The Kimber is more accurate!

So Kimber it is! I am going to get it tomorrow. They have it on 24 hour hold for me!

I had a Colt Delta Elite 10mm but tired of getting raped with the cost of ammo - when I can find it!!!


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## WillBrink (Aug 18, 2009)

08steeda said:


> Hi gang,
> 
> Looking at getting a new 45.
> 
> ...



TRP would be my choice over _any_ Kimber product. :2c:


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## 08steeda (Aug 18, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> TRP would be my choice over _any_ Kimber product. :2c:


 

All right Doc, I am not letting you off with that bell ringer! I need objective reasoning and maybe some facts! Or is this just a personal Bias! Which is fine, everyone does it!

But if you have dirt on Kimber I want to know before I go get in tomorrow!

Thanks


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## Polar Bear (Aug 18, 2009)

Buy a damn Glock and use the rest of the money to buy ammo


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## 08steeda (Aug 18, 2009)

Polar Bear said:


> Buy a damn Glock and use the rest of the money to buy ammo


 

Sorry - I am a GLOCK Hater!!!! Can't stand the damn things! I hate that trigger/safety clunky thing!!! Plus they are damn ugly!!!


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## 7point62 (Aug 19, 2009)

All you will ever need in a 45.


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## The91Bravo (Aug 19, 2009)

I have the Kimber Pro Raptor II.  The only complaint I have is that is has major problems digesting hollow points with larger diameter mouths (the hollow part of the HP)  I will get 3-4 out of 100 that Fail to Feed.  They simply get jammed on the feed ramp.  When I changed to a smaller mouth, the malfunctions stopped.

Other than that, it goes bang when I pull the little curved part, and makes neat little holes in the paper/jug/silouette right where I am pointing at.  It has overtaken my HK USP as my primary off duty weapon.

just my .02

Whatever you get.... there better be some good gun porn on this thread when you do get it.


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## SAWMAN (Aug 19, 2009)

Polar Bear said:


> Buy a damn Glock and use the rest of the money to buy ammo



I was thinking that same exact thought, but I was didn't want to rain on anybody's parade. Guys like the various guns. They're nice, so I totally get it. 

However, for me, after all I've seen and done, I have to admit the ugly plastic gun runs amazingly well straight out of the box....and it always will. I've abused those things like you wouldn't believe. Simple, accurate, reliable, AND....(drum role, please................................................................................a fraction of the price of the other fancy guns. Which, just like you pointed out, leaves you a LOT more money for ammo. 

In the end, only the buyer knows what he's REALLY after. If you want an attractive gun with a lot of effort and quality workmanship done to it, there are many to choose from. However, in a fight, they're no better than the Glock. And in many cases, they're much less reliable than the Glock, due to their tight tolerances, etc. 

If anyone doubts me, take a typical fancy race gun, throw it down in the sand, bury it completely, take it out, rack the slide back and attempt to fire. Click......
Do that same thing with the Glock, and BOOM! There's the real beauty of the Glock. Cuz Lord knows it's nothing to look at... Black plastic. Still, to me it's beautiful, cuz I'm just worried about max reliability. 

My 2 cents.


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## The91Bravo (Aug 19, 2009)

EDIT TO ADD:

Also, IMHO you can never go wrong with a 1911.  Even if you decided to build one yourself.  If you get a quality slide and frame, you can trick it out as much as your budget allows.

And if you ever have something break 1911 parts are everywhere.  You wear out a spring.. go to Wolff, you need a sear, check Brownells.  They are the eternal epitome of the word 'semi auto handgun'.
after my Kimber, my HK is the next choice, and I rotate it through the queue regularly.  I have over 15k rounds through the tube and all parts are still original and within tolerances without loss of accuracy.  Their customer Service is not what I would like to see, but since I have only had to call them once, I will live with that happily.

After the Kimber and HK, my next gun in the rotation is my SA XDm.  I like it, but have not got the holster I want for it yet and the XD gear that came with it is shit.

Good luck


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## WillBrink (Aug 19, 2009)

08steeda said:


> All right Doc, I am not letting you off with that bell ringer! I need objective reasoning and maybe some facts! Or is this just a personal Bias! Which is fine, everyone does it!
> 
> But if you have dirt on Kimber I want to know before I go get in tomorrow!
> 
> Thanks




A few reasons, some specific some general. The good smiths I know, and the well known top level 1911 smiths, such as Hilton Yam, will tell you the fit and finish of Kimbers is often sub par. You will also see they consider the TRP one of the best out of the 1911s for the $$$. Kimber uses a Schwartz saftey. They are prone to problems, not part of the original design of the 1911, and the Kimber version has more problems then most. Again, I recommend reading articles by people such as Yam, Rogers, and others on that. A 1911 armorer in the L.E. profession recently said:

Follks me being a 1911 armorer in the L.E. profession, I've seen a lot of different 1911's coming across the bench, and keep in contact with other dept.'s that carry & use the 1911 variant.

"Within the last 2 weeks, I've seen 2 Kimber Series II's where the tip of the rod that protrudes from the frame which activates the firing pin safety, has broken off, leaving the gun unusable. What is more frightening, is that they were duty guns carried by uniformed officers.
Upon starting the first stage of the last qualification, the gun went click. After doing a tap-rack drill, it again went click. After the third time of going click, the gun was taken apart and the problem found.
The Officers were unaware of the broken part, and during this last qualification at their respective dept.'s, they found out that the gun was useless........except for a very expensive paper weight.
Both had been carrying these guns for weeks or longer in this condition. They have no idea when this may have occurred. Both said that they had fired their guns on their off time, but it had been sometime since doing it.........which means, they are unsure how long it had been..........at least a few weeks they figure. Folks, I recommend that you detail strip your Kimber series II's once in awhile and check the Schwartz parts. From what I understand, Kimber has been made aware of the problem."

Cont:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=156426

The TRP has no such firepin safety in it and uses a titanium firing pin and heavier spring to solve that "problem" with 1911s, which is actually no problem, but that's another issue..

As a general rule, those who know 1911s and carry them for potential life and death uses, will not carry one  with Schwartz saftey in it. If the gun is strictly a range, IDPA gun, then it's not a major issue.

QC problems. Kimber has improved, but as I read the 1911 forums all the time, I see plenty complaints there and smiths I know who work on them tell me they are all over the place with their QC.

Cust service. All machines can break. The SA customer service is first rate, Kimber, not so much...I read complaints regularly.

MIM parts. I don't have the numbers, but Kimber uses more MIM parts then other companies vs forged or barstock. Some don't have an issue with that some do. I do. Common MIM parts on Kimbers: Slide stop, hammer, sear, disconnecter, mag catch, plunger tube, firing pin stop, thumb safety, ejector, beaver tail, mainspring housing.

I recommend taking a read of the 10-8 forums where Yam and others can be found who know more about 1911s then I ever will:

www.10-8forums.com

That's a few thoughts that come to mind why I personally will never own a Kimber product. Two, the SA TRP has probably the best reputation on the market in that price range and I wouldn't hesitate to own one. Thus, if it comes down to a TRP vs a Kimber, the TRP is an easy choice for me personally :2c:

I know some happy Kimber owners too, but that's my personal reasons why it's not a brand that interests me.

BTW, S&W uses what's a Schwartz-like system that's something between a series 80 made by Colt and a Schwartz that's been very robust, so if you were in a state, or had a job, etc that required a firing pin safety, I would chose the S&W, which for the $$$, are well made and very reliable out of the box.


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## WillBrink (Aug 19, 2009)

PS, Kimber models that don't have the firepin safety is:

SIS Custom
SIS Custom/RL
Desert Warrior
Warrior 

By most accounts, the Warrior is probably their best out of the box 1911.


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## 08steeda (Aug 19, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> PS, Kimber models that don't have the firepin safety is:
> 
> SIS Custom
> SIS Custom/RL
> ...



Thanks Will!

I will do more research and then make a decision. This is a paper/steel puncher mainly...although if I can get the right rig I might carry it from time to time (CCW). But I am not a LE am not required to carry anything.

I do have my compact carry guns so this is just to add another toy to the toy box!

I appreciate your response. I will investigate further.

FYI - I am sure there are opponents to every make , model and caliber out there. I am also sure that there are faulty weapons from every manufacturer. So the saga will continue!

Thx


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 19, 2009)

SAWMAN said:


> I was thinking that same exact thought, but I was didn't want to rain on anybody's parade. Guys like the various guns. They're nice, so I totally get it.
> 
> However, for me, after all I've seen and done, I have to admit the ugly plastic gun runs amazingly well straight out of the box....and it always will. I've abused those things like you wouldn't believe. Simple, accurate, reliable, AND....(drum role, please................................................................................a fraction of the price of the other fancy guns. Which, just like you pointed out, leaves you a LOT more money for ammo.
> 
> ...



I agree 100% with you sawman, I trust Glock more then anything on the market today. They are far from the most accurate, but it goes bang every time you move the trigger. There is something to be said for simple and reliable. I have always said I can train a person in half the time and with half the ammo with a Glock.



WillBrink said:


> A few reasons, some specific some general.



Good information Will, but something that you failed to point out is that the faulty firing pin safety is not caused by firing the pistol but by incorrect disassembly and reassembly. The pin can (and in most cases) is sheered off by trying to push the slide onto the receiver while depressing the grip safety. 

I have heard of this from my local smith and the smith determined that the firing pin safety was broken due to the retard owner, jamming the slide on the receiver by banging it against the top of a desk. :doh: Needless to say once the owner explained that to the smith, the smith gave him a class on proper assembly. 

Now here is something to look at and be aware of, but why dismiss a well known and widely used brand of 1911 b/c a few retards broke their own guns? 

I now and old timer deputy sheriff (Comal County TX) who is a super 1911 fan, he got home late one night, went to clear his Colt 1911 (gold cup) the way he had for years. Well he racked the slide and the gun went band! He sat there looked at his bloody hand and wondered WTF? After he got fixed up at the hospital and returned to his gun, holding a baggy of brass shrapnel they took out of his hand. He examined what he did and what he was doing was holding his hand over the ejection port of the pistol, while racking the slide (in order to catch the round). His investigative conclusion was that this night he had pushed the round back in the gun and the round was set off by the ejector smashing the primer. He now is a stickler for clearing a pistol the correct way.

In the Army we refer to that as a self-correcting problem. ;)

The point is, this old man was smart enough to admit fault. Not many people will do that and want to blame the gun and or ammunition. They will even go as far as try to sue people and companies over “user error” problems. Just b/c someone says it’s this, doesn’t make it so.

Just some food for thought. Either way I think we beat this dead horse enough.:2c:


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## 08steeda (Aug 19, 2009)

Yep, I am going with the Kimber TC II.

I just got off the phone with a rep from Kimber and said the claims about parts made in India is not true and they CNC all their parts themselves and hand fit all the parts during assembly.

Also there are those who don't like the Firing Pin Safety. There are some advocates of it too! I like the idea that if you ever dropped the weapon and it hit the hammer it will not go BANG. I have never dropped a firearm nor do I plan to start. But this is not a life or death decision. This is as much about accuracy and aesthetics and wanting a 1911 in .45 as anything. My 2 Colt 10 mm's are awesome as well as my Colt Ace (1911 in .22).

I have other weapons that fit the zombie survival scenario, although I am not convinced that the Kimber is NOT up to that level of reliability as well. 

Personally the fault of those weapons and the malfunction was Operator Error. Is it a tricky design - maybe. Is it prone to malfunction if you assemble it incorrectly - absolutly!

My brother shoots IDPA as well as some shooting leagues and ONLY uses his Kimbers. He has never had any kind of failure other than a bad magazine. We are talking about 3 different Kimbers with thousands of rounds thru each of them. Plus one of which is a full-time carry gun.

As far a Glock's go - I am a hater who does have a measure of respect for them. They are reliable. Not horribly accurate but reliable. I like a sexy looking weapon (I know silly) and the trigger is just something I have not been able to get comfortable with. Plus the weapon just does not ride in my hand comfortably with the aim-point in the desired position. I am not a big fan of any of the weapons that have that kind of grip angle - but that is because they don't seem to fit me or my hands. I am not saying they are poor weapons or unreliable. 

I find the same issue with the SA XD's. Now a 1911 just comes up clean and point of aim is dead nuts - centered every time. I can literally close my eye's draw a 1911 and when I open my eye's the sights are aligned perfectly on the target.

I can't do that with a Glock. It is always slightly high.


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## SAWMAN (Aug 19, 2009)

08steeda said:


> I like a sexy looking weapon (I know silly)



That's not silly at all. I totally get that. I like some guns for that reason, too. Now, if it was going to be your ONLY weapon and you needed it to fight with, that would be a different circumstance. I think there are many reasons to like guns. Looking sexy is one I happen to be able to relate to, as well as so many others.

Let us know what you end up with.

Maybe you'll even need a high-quality leather belt to carry it on. My father-in-law makes about the best I've seen and they're cheaper than the big names. He makes each one custom on your order. 

www.popscustomleather.com

In fact, he's sending me a box of belts he just made for some of the operators here on the gig I'm currently working. 

Don't forget to post pics of the new gun!


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## 08steeda (Aug 19, 2009)

Sawman - I will take a look at the belts! I love custom stuff! I like being unique!!!

Thanks

And I will post pic's as soon as I bring her home!!!


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## Rabid Badger (Aug 19, 2009)

Being comfortable with a gun in your hand is all about muscle memory and building the callouses in the important spots....laymans terms...but effective.

My 92FS is a bit of a clunker and heavy and....well....heavy.... compared to Glock cheap plastic and Springfield steel....but.....I'm used to it and keyhole at 25.....and it ain't for just shooting paper.....lol....

No failures and if there were, I can break it down to steel and replace....fast...

Nothing can be compared to PRACTICE....

Shot Glock in Bdad for 3 years.....raised a nice size callous under the 2nd finger strong hand....but no misfires....

Kimber....can't say a word....best of luck...

Buy Beretta... I carry the 92 CCW everyday Va tuck and or OC when I feel like it....it ain't an ankle gun but feels mosdef comfo in the belt.... [checkin the SAWMAN 'Operator' belts out now - ~chuckles~]

You should see my newest toy....where'd that damn thread go??....


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## 08steeda (Aug 19, 2009)

RB said:


> Being comfortable with a gun in your hand is all about muscle memory and building the callouses in the important spots....laymans terms...but effective.
> 
> My 92FS is a bit of a clunker and heavy and....well....heavy.... compared to Glock cheap plastic and Springfield steel....but.....I'm used to it and keyhole at 25.....and it ain't for just shooting paper.....lol....
> 
> ...



I have 2 - 92 FS's, One is a plain Jane and the other has match barrel and 3rd Gen Block.

I also have a Cheetah in .380 from my Dad.

I love my 92's! 

Those are what I used to use as an IPSC Instructor and in Matches. I have NEVER had a failure other than a couple stove pipe's. That was after thousands of rounds on original springs. Once they got replaced I have never had any problems again!

My 92's are both tack drivers and very reliable. They are actually my Go-To hardware!!!

I agree about muscle memory and practice can make any pistol comfortable. But there is also a person's natural bio mechanics and physiology that makes a huge difference.


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## 08steeda (Aug 19, 2009)

I am a bit of a gun whore. So for those making suggestions here is my current inventory of side-arms:

2 Beretta 92FS's 9mm
1 Beretta Cheetah .380
1 FNH Compact DaC (High-Power) 9 mm
1 Colt Gold Cup (1911) 10mm 
1 Colt Delta Elite (1911) 10mm
1 Colt Ace (1911) .22
1 S&W Model 19 .357
1 S&W Model 686-6 .357
1 S&W Model 629 44 MAG
1 S&W Model 648 .22 Win Mag


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## arizonaguide (Aug 19, 2009)

I'm of course partial to Springfield weapons (see avatar), and this will be my next one. 
Just waiting for them (c'mon Springfield, WTF?) to make the damn thing in .45acp!!! 











> 1 FNH Compact DaC (High-Power) 9 mm


Pictures? :cool:


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## Rabid Badger (Aug 19, 2009)

08steeda said:


> I am a bit of a gun whore. So for those making suggestions here is my current inventory of side-arms:
> 
> 2 Beretta 92FS's 9mm
> 1 Beretta Cheetah .380
> ...



What'd I do with that 'jealous' smiley...:eek:;)


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 19, 2009)

RB said:


> My 92FS is a bit of a clunker and heavy and....well....heavy.... compared to Glock cheap plastic and Springfield steel....but.....I'm used to it and keyhole at 25.....and it ain't for just shooting paper.....lol....



Yeah RB was shooting smily faces in his target, while that Peice of "SHIT" MnP was making me look a fool...:doh: ;)

The M9 is a very accurate pistol, just heavy and big. I do have to agree with the training though, if you shoot 1911's and put rounds down range every few weeks. It would make no since to switch to another platform.


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## 08steeda (Aug 19, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> Yeah RB was shooting smily faces in his target, while that Peice of "SHIT" MnP was making me look a fool...:doh: ;)
> 
> The M9 is a very accurate pistol, just heavy and big. I do have to agree with the training though, if you shoot 1911's and put rounds down range every few weeks. It would make no since to switch to another platform.



I agree and can hit my target with just about anything out there, especially in the side-arm category. Even with a Glock. Not smiley face accurate right now. Too much travel and not enough shooting!!!

But it would not take long to get back to that level of proficiency at the range!

I should have some pic's to show tomorrow or Friday. Plus I owe AZ pic's of my FNH he keeps lusting after!


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## lockNload (Aug 19, 2009)

SAWMAN said:


> I was thinking that same exact thought, but I was didn't want to rain on anybody's parade. Guys like the various guns. They're nice, so I totally get it.
> 
> However, for me, after all I've seen and done, I have to admit the ugly plastic gun runs amazingly well straight out of the box....and it always will. I've abused those things like you wouldn't believe. Simple, accurate, reliable, AND....(drum role, please................................................................................a fraction of the price of the other fancy guns. Which, just like you pointed out, leaves you a LOT more money for ammo.
> 
> ...




I've been shooting my Glock for 4 years now and love it. I agree with you about reliability. As for looks, I actually really like the styling of a Glock. I also want my gun to be "sexy" to me. Everyone has different taste. Kind of ironic what you said about 1911's when you're avatar pic has a couple of them 

I had wanted a Kimber for a long time but after doing a lot of reading online about them and talking to various people I'm now skeptical. I looked at a Wilson Protector over the weekend and really liked it. Racking the slide was very smooth. However, spending $2,700 for a 1911 is a hard pill to swallow. I love my Glock and that will probably always be my primary handgun but I want some variety and like the 1911 for a change of pace. The accuracy is amazing with them. I'm pretty good with my Glock but I've shot a Kimber TLE/RL II at the range and I'm like WOW.


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## Trip_Wire (Aug 20, 2009)

Sawman/lockNload:

I agree with many of your comments on the Glock and other service type pistols. To many people pistols and other firearms are like cars and/or even women. They all do sort of the same things and we tend to pick them based on individual choices and opinions of what is important to ourselves.

The Government usually picks the low bidder, so many LE Agencies wind up with the Glock 22. It is IMO a VERY good choice for most LE agencies to issue. The SIG is also issued to many LE agencies as well. As I recall the UK's SAS turned to the SIG 226 to replace the Browning. So it goes!


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## P. Beck (Aug 20, 2009)

I don't remember who said this first:

"Glocks are for people who have to carry."
"1911's are for people who like to carry."

I like to.


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## AWP (Aug 20, 2009)

I've always viewed weapons like parachutes. You have certain items for certain tasks, some are more comfortable to the user than others. What I like and depend on may not be what you like and depend on. Bells, whistles, colors.....whatever, as long as it works when you need it to over and over and over until you no longer use it.


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## SAWMAN (Aug 20, 2009)

P. Beck said:


> I don't remember who said this first:
> 
> "Glocks are for people who have to carry."
> "1911's are for people who like to carry."
> ...



I like that. I agree for the most part. I think you'll see the majority of people who carry cuz they want to with the nicer guns.

With nothing being absolute in this world, I do have one side note. 

I've had some nice race guns over the years. I've since sold them all. Not because I'm against them, but because I don't have the faith in them I do in the ugly plastic Glock. (I know that sounds ironic) 

Maybe I'm too much a product of training and contingency concerns, but when I check a pistol and shove it into a holster, I'm counting on having to use it left handed in the dark, in an awkward fight, covered in one or more of the following; Blood, salt water, mud, sand, bile, spinal fluid, barf, fuel... I figure if it's not close, it's not really an emergency or self defense survival situation, so the accuracy of the Glock will do. Besides, many who claim to need more accuracy than that can't shoot well enough to back that up. Having also been in federal law enforcement, I know the legal questions will be asked about why you pursued, or engaged at long distances, etc. So the accuracy thing for me, with a pistol, doesn't ring with much resonance. I just haven't seen that issue to be significant. The Glocks are accurate enough. So there are a lot of different ways of looking at it. I like 'em all. I just like pointing out where my thinking comes from. 

Anyway, I do like "handsome" guns and I will start carrying more while stateside. But for me, it will still be the ugly plastic gun that runs like a champ in a life and death fight under adverse conditions.


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## HOLLiS (Aug 20, 2009)

Trip_Wire said:


> Sawman/lockNload:
> 
> I agree with many of your comments on the Glock and other service type pistols. To many people pistols and other firearms are like cars and/or even women. They all do sort of the same things and we tend to pick them based on individual choices and opinions of what is important to ourselves.



I agree, I think probably 99% of these discussion is as you say.  I found out I am extremely flexible, all these pistols sound good to me.  I would not have a problem carrying one of them if I had to have to carry a pistol.  

I have noticed over time, I may gravitate to a specific pistol, why?  I guess I would need a really cool reason, but it tends to be more on some innate personal preference.   

So back to my basic economic philosophy of life about firearms,  More is preferred to less.


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## arizonaguide (Aug 20, 2009)

I am a firm believer that a handgun should FIT your personal hand...ie: have a "natural point" from your specific hand. 
That may be much different for each person.

Sure, a certain amount of that can be "learned" by repeated use of a weapon...(muscle memory IS a good thing!)
But there is something to be said for a weapon that just "naturally" points accurately in your hand (from DAY ONE).
Sometimes you may only have enough time to "point" rather than "aim".



PS: GOD BLESS John Browning. :cool:


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## arizonaguide (Aug 20, 2009)

08steeda said:


> I should have some pic's to show tomorrow or Friday. Plus I owe AZ pic's of my FNH he keeps lusting after!


Word!

I'm interested in that FNH, because the Browning HiPower was the best naturally FITTING weapon I've ever had...didn't even have to aim...just POINT that MF and it was "on target". 
I'm anxious to see if the FNH looks to be similar, in a "compact" package. :2c: I can't find one (locally) to put in my hand. 
So, need to at least see a picture!
:cool:


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## 08steeda (Aug 21, 2009)

Okay I did not go with the Kimber. I was not thrilled to find out the frame was alloy!

So I went with a Springfield 1911 A1 - Loaded Match. Plus a Titanium Guide Rod, Novak sights, Wilson Combat Match Barrel and Bushings and Trigger job!  It's a start!


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## HOLLiS (Aug 21, 2009)

^^^ That is a very good start.    BTW Springfield Armory are nice people to work with.


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## 08steeda (Aug 21, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> ^^^ That is a very good start.    BTW Springfield Armory are nice people to work with.




Yeah I am a huge fan of SA! My M1A Super-Match is INCREDIBLE!!! Other than the ARMS mount that is broken with my scope stuck on the rifle!!! But that is not SA's issue! Although I may have to send it them to get the damn thing off!

http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=21437


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 21, 2009)

Nice pistola! Let us know how it shoots!!!


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## Viper1 (Aug 21, 2009)

Beautiful!


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## SAWMAN (Aug 22, 2009)

Good choice. You're gonna enjoy it. Nice gun.


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## arizonaguide (Aug 22, 2009)

08steeda said:


> Okay I did not go with the Kimber. I was not thrilled to find out the frame was alloy!
> 
> So I went with a Springfield 1911 A1 - Loaded Match. Plus a Titanium Guide Rod, Novak sights, Wilson Combat Match Barrel and Bushings and Trigger job! It's a start!


Springfield does JMB, Bro! You KNOW what I think. :cool:
[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8dE5IZbMd3Q&feature=related[/ame]


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## WillBrink (Aug 22, 2009)

08steeda said:


> Okay I did not go with the Kimber. I was not thrilled to find out the frame was alloy!
> 
> So I went with a Springfield 1911 A1 - Loaded Match. Plus a Titanium Guide Rod, Novak sights, Wilson Combat Match Barrel and Bushings and Trigger job!  It's a start![/IMG]



Per my prior comment(s), I think that was a much better choice going with the SA. :)


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 22, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> Per my prior comment(s)






I will still spank you both with my Kimber!:2c:


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## WillBrink (Aug 22, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> I will still spank you both with my Kimber!:2c:



Hopefully I will meet you on the range some day to see it... Anyone who can spank me on the range usually has something good to teach me! :confused:


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## HOLLiS (Aug 22, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> I will still spank you both with my Kimber!:2c:



This is starting to sound a tad bit kinky.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 22, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> Hopefully I will meet you on the range some day to see it... Anyone who can spank me on the range usually has something good to teach me! :confused:



Some day indeed, I think it would be cool to make it to a shoot out or a match in your area. ;)



HOLLiS said:


> This is starting to sound a tad bit kinky.



Do you feel left out?


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## arizonaguide (Aug 23, 2009)

You guys KNOW that Arizona is the "mecca" of the combat pistol world, right? ;)
Time for a "pilgrimage", MF's~!
:cool:


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## Centermass (Aug 23, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> You guys KNOW that Arizona is the "mecca" of the combat pistol world, right? ;)



Too bad that most of those who were south of the border are the reason why..........


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## WillBrink (Aug 23, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> Some day indeed, I think it would be cool to make it to a shoot out or a match in your area. ;)



You're always welcome to visit. IDPA is popular around here. I have not shot a match all summer sad to say as I have been busy with the team, but have gotten some rnds off each week at their range. Better then nothing.


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## HOLLiS (Aug 23, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> Do you feel left out?




Sure do, I have a couple of .45s that like to party.  2-Colts, 1 is a Wilson build,  a S&W Chief Special, Beretta, Taurus New Millennium, Jericho, and a Glock.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 23, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> You're always welcome to visit. IDPA is popular around here. I have not shot a match all summer sad to say as I have been busy with the team, but have gotten some rnds off each week at their range. Better then nothing.



I have not shot a match since 2007 (First Army Warrior Challange)  I have been to a few local IDPA "get to gethers" but hardly anyone has been showing up...:uhh:




HOLLiS said:


> Sure do, I have a couple of .45s that like to party.  2-Colts, 1 is a Wilson build,  a S&W Chief Special, Beretta, Taurus New Millennium, Jericho, and a Glock.



"Becuase I like to party" 

How in the fuck can you aford to shoot all that?


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## HOLLiS (Aug 23, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> How in the fuck can you aford to shoot all that?



I can only shoot one or two hand guns at a time.   So the ammo used is the same regardless of how many hand guns that I have.   

When I did some competition, I would only use certain pistols 90% of the time.  Then again, I shoot for fun, even in competition.  The other aspect is that I reload.   This last 9 months has been a bit of a challenge.   About 8 years ago a box of commercial .45 Colt reduced loads was $25.00,  using my brass a box cost $2.50 to reload.    So you can see one can lower the cost a bit.   If I need to be more frugal, I can cast my own bullets.  

Also I see guns as a investment that you can play with.   Stocks are just numbers on a piece of paper, last Dec, they took a 30 - 40% dive in value.  Firearms on the hand, you can play with and just went up in value.  One should have a diversified portfolio .

BTW I do have a UZI in .45, and a couple of .45 colts. wheel guns.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 23, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> I can only shoot one or two hand guns at a time.   So the ammo used is the same regardless of how many hand guns that I have.
> 
> When I did some competition, I would only use certain pistols 90% of the time.  Then again, I shoot for fun, even in competition.  The other aspect is that I reload.   This last 9 months has been a bit of a challenge.   About 8 years ago a box of commercial .45 Colt reduced loads was $25.00,  using my brass a box cost $2.50 to reload.    So you can see one can lower the cost a bit.   If I need to be more frugal, I can cast my own bullets.
> 
> ...



Well thank you for your very detailed explanation as to how you afford shooting only 1-2 pistols at a time… 

I agree guns are investments, I own six 1911’s not including the ones my dad bought for my NRA match’s. I have two Glock’s, one Sig and one S&W MnP (not for much longer) and if all goes well I will have a new XD m 9mm today after I get done at the gun show…

Only have one wheel gun S&W model 10 38spc, it gets cleaned once a year. ;)

I need to buy some reloading equipment though…


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## HOLLiS (Aug 23, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> Well thank you for your very detailed explanation as to how you afford shooting only 1-2 pistols at a time…
> 
> I agree guns are investments, I own six 1911’s not including the ones my dad bought for my NRA match’s. I have two Glock’s, one Sig and one S&W MnP (not for much longer) and if all goes well I will have a new XD m 9mm today after I get done at the gun show…
> 
> ...




Being a reloader affectinatto, I like to encourage people to reload.   It is not for everyone.  Cost wise, it would be hard to justify reloading equipment for the casual shooter.    In competition it allows shooter to have ammo made for their specific firearm.   Just as a pistol can be tuned to the needs of the specific shooter, the ammo can be tuned for that specific firearm.   

For me, reloading also gives a added dimension to shooting.  I like to know what I am doing and how it works.  I even build some of my own shooters or do my own mods.


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## arizonaguide (Aug 23, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> Also I see guns as a investment that you can play with. Stocks are just numbers on a piece of paper, last Dec, they took a 30 - 40% dive in value. Firearms on the hand, you can play with and just went up in value. One should have a diversified portfolio .


My sentiments EXACTLY! 
Guns, Ammo, Real Estate. :cool:


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## arizonaguide (Aug 23, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> I agree guns are investments, I own six 1911’s not including the ones my dad bought for my NRA match’s. I have two Glock’s, one Sig and one S&W MnP (not for much longer) and if all goes well I will have a new *XDm 9mm* today after I get done at the gun show…
> 
> I need to buy some reloading equipment though…


YES! Let me know how she (XDm) goes! (20rd magazine, match barrel)
:cool:
I grabbed a shotty reloader and a bunch of primers a couple monthes ago...and STILL need to get her setup and in production.
Hollis, any recomendations on brand/type of shotty Powder to start with...for mostly 12ga. defense loads and perhaps some coyote slugs?
And is one type of wadding better than another?


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## WillBrink (Aug 23, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> I have not shot a match since 2007 (First Army Warrior Challange)  I have been to a few local IDPA "get to gethers" but hardly anyone has been showing up...:uhh:



Here in ultra liberal anti gun MA, there is an IDPA match just about every weekend in the summer at anyone of 4-5 clubs within an hour drive of my house.


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## HOLLiS (Aug 23, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> YES! Let me know how she (XDm) goes! (20rd magazine, match barrel)
> :cool:
> I grabbed a shotty reloader and a bunch of primers a couple monthes ago...and STILL need to get her setup and in production.
> Hollis, any recomendations on brand/type of shotty Powder to start with...for mostly 12ga. defense loads and perhaps some coyote slugs?
> And is one type of wadding better than another?



I would just see what the reloading manual recommends.  Last 12 Gs that I loaded was black powder with fiber wads.  

Slugs for coyotes?    How about .22 LR HPs.   I don't load enough shotgun to be all the familiar with them.  Again best is to consult the manual.


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## 08steeda (Aug 23, 2009)

IF YOU CAN BEAT ME, it won't be by much!!! I still like the Kimber alot. I just did not realize they had a Alloy frame. For an IPSC gun and running 1000's of rounds thru it I was a bit concerned. Kimber is good kit!

I can still shoot a playing card in half with a single shot from 10 yds! At least with my 92FS. And that is being out of top form. I just joined a new shooting league and will be re-building my skills over the next few months. I plan to get back to top form and should have no trouble doing the playing card at 15 yds with the my new 45.

Just need to keep building up those fine motor skills and muscle memory!

I will let you know once I shoot my new SA how well it shoots. I will probably shoot it tomorrow when I pick it up from the Armorer/Gun Smith.

Gotta get it thru the break in period ASAP.



J.A.B. said:


> I will still spank you both with my Kimber!:2c:


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## arizonaguide (Aug 24, 2009)

Pictures MF! :)


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## HOLLiS (Aug 24, 2009)

08steeda said:


> I
> I can still shoot a playing card in half with a single shot from 10 yds! .



Humm  at 20 yards:


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 24, 2009)

So I picked up the XD (M) 9mm Sunday at the gunshow, shot 400rds today. It grouped well, but I had a few flyers here and there. Largest group was about 6 inch, smallest was about 3 inch. Not bad for a $550 out of the box pistola...

Pic sucks b/c it's off my cell phone...


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## 08steeda (Aug 25, 2009)

Nice HOLLiS and JAB!


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## XRecon205 (Aug 25, 2009)

I used the .45 standard issue first, followed by the 92F's when they first released them. We shot 1000 rounds through the original, x-rayed the frame and found hairline cracks. I believe Beretta made corrections.

I used the SIG 9mm on the weapons team, and really enjoyed it. Not a great concealed peice, but great response for a shooter.

I carried a Walther .380 for a while, and while comfortable to carry and accurate, I was always concerned about knock down power. 

I carried a Model 10 snubby for a while in .38, and it did pretty well. If you practice enough with a wheel gun you can get really good at it. Fine motor skills on a re-load combat situation becomes a real concern for amateurs.

The Smith 5906 was a decent peice, but I am not a 9mm fan. In addition the grip size after the .45 was just not comfortable. I carried it for several years, and ended up giving it my father. (I added a trigger shoe which helped with accuracy.)

I now carry a .45 Gold cup national match with the original grips and heavier spring. The Eliason sites are kinda sharp for loose concealed, but in a shoulder holster it's great. I changed the spring after some feed issues with reloads. I tried different grips but just wasn't as comfortable.

Bottom line is if I had my choice for one combat weapon, it would be an M-14. Remember, "Bring a long gun. Preferably, bring a friend with a long gun."

If it's a back up handgun, I like the .45 for stopping power. The Kimber has a great rep, but you can't go wrong with Colt, practice, and more practice.

My two cents.

DK

PS If you like great combat leather, try Erik Little at Rafter L gun leather. Tell him I said "hi."


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## 8'Duece (Aug 25, 2009)

I'm Rick James' Bitch !!


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## x SF med (Aug 25, 2009)

Waiting for the State to let me have my XD-9  (not the M) that I won recently.  I've already picked up 100 rds of target ammo (Magtech 9a FMC) because it was a good price at $320 for the 1000.

At least the input terminal didn't go all Video Arcade when my info got put in, that was a good sign.

Range time will be scheduled.
CPL will be applied for.

Please send money so I can afford to shoot and buy mnore guns.
Thank you for supporting The TROLL!


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## Trip_Wire (Aug 25, 2009)

x SF med said:


> Waiting for the State to let me have my XD-9  (not the M) that I won recently.  I've already picked up 100 rds of target ammo (Magtech 9a FMC) because it was a good price at $320 for the 1000.
> 
> At least the input terminal didn't go all Video Arcade when my info got put in, that was a good sign.
> 
> ...




Have you started the paperwork for your WA State CCP yet? If not you should take the time to do that.  :2c:


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## lockNload (Aug 26, 2009)

x SF med said:


> Waiting for the State to let me have my XD-9  (not the M) that I won recently.  I've already picked up 100 rds of target ammo (Magtech 9a FMC) because it was a good price at $320 for the 1000.




You think that's a good price :uhh: :eek:  That's expensive in my book. I haven't paid more than $0.25/round. Hope you interchanged the two and three when posting.


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## x SF med (Aug 26, 2009)

lockNload said:


> You think that's a good price :uhh: :eek: That's expensive in my book. I haven't paid more than $0.25/round. Hope you interchanged the two and three when posting.


 

You are not in my State, WA...  and near FT. Lewis... even finding ammo is tough.


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## HOLLiS (Aug 26, 2009)

x SF med said:


> You are not in my State, WA...  and near FT. Lewis... even finding ammo is tough.



No problem with ammo here.  :)

The local gunshop has been doing pretty good.


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## lockNload (Aug 26, 2009)

x SF med said:


> You are not in my State, WA...  and near FT. Lewis... even finding ammo is tough.



I've been buying most of my ammo from online vendors. I can't usually find    9mm ammo in stores around here either. I should start a thread posting links to vendors that sell ammo and mags online at an affordable price. If you're looking to buy you just need to check some of these sites every day and you will end up finding what you want in stock.


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## x SF med (Aug 29, 2009)

Haven't started the CPL paperwork yet, since it has to be processed downtown during the work week...:doh:

Picked up the pistola today and 100 rds of Win Super Unleaded 147 Gr subsonic FMJ flatfronts for home defense. I wish I had the extra cash to pick up some more...And the 1911's and other pistolas I was drooling over.

Hi, I'm the Troll and I'm a gun-a-holic...

Now I need range time with it... 

Yoo Hoo.... Jordan! Let's find time to go out and put lead downrange...


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## x SF med (Aug 29, 2009)

lockNload said:


> You think that's a good price :uhh: :eek: That's expensive in my book. I haven't paid more than $0.25/round. Hope you interchanged the two and three when posting.


 

Most of what's around here is running about .38/round for 9mm - Wal-Mart is about .30/rd but I would rather give my money to a local gun/ammo dealer, even if it is a little more expensive.  It's my way of giving the current administration the finger by helping allow local gunshops to stay in business.

Anybody looking for an Armalite AR-10 in 7.62 (.308)  there's a cherry one here that a retired soldier/gun dealer is looking to off load...  brand new.


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## HOLLiS (Aug 29, 2009)

x SF med said:


> Anybody looking for an Armalite AR-10 in 7.62 (.308)  there's a cherry one here that a retired soldier/gun dealer is looking to off load...  brand new.



Very tempting, if I didn't have a AR-10.  Really neat rifle. I have been looking at a S&W M&P15, good looking rifle.


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## lockNload (Aug 30, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> Very tempting, if I didn't have a AR-10.  Really neat rifle. I have been looking at a S&W M&P15, good looking rifle.



My dad has an M&P15T and it's been a great gun. The only real problem he has had was a shitty extractor but that was a simple fix. One issue he has had and I have had with my LWRC M6A2 that I got last summer was locking a magazine on a closed bolt. Yes it is a problem with less than 30 rounds in the mag. It requires a real hard push. Any ideas?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 30, 2009)

lockNload said:


> My dad has an M&P15T and it's been a great gun. The only real problem he has had was a shitty extractor but that was a simple fix. One issue he has had and I have had with my LWRC M6A2 that I got last summer was locking a magazine on a closed bolt. Yes it is a problem with less than 30 rounds in the mag. It requires a real hard push. Any ideas?



Lock the bolt to the rear while loading!:doh:

They all do that, just smack the mathafucka and sling-shot the charging handel... ;)


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## lockNload (Aug 30, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> Lock the bolt to the rear while loading!:doh:
> 
> They all do that, just smack the mathafucka and sling-shot the charging handel... ;)



Making me feel so smart   Obviously it's only a problem on the first mag. I was just under the impression that it wasn't supposed to do that. I'll just lock the bolt to the rear from now on ;)


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## 08steeda (Sep 2, 2009)

Hey AZ

Here is a pic for you!


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## arizonaguide (Sep 2, 2009)

Sweeeeeeet!!!
See, it does look like it has a similar "narrowing" at the top of the grip like the HiPower. Damn, I wish I could find one around here to try out.

Thanks BRO! Been wondering. Looks easy to conceal, too. Is it made in .40 or .45?

I still want an XDm though. Waaaaaa. Everybody's gettin em cep't ME!!! 
When will they make it in a .45 dammit?


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## 08steeda (Sep 2, 2009)

Far as I know it only came in 9mm. They are sweet. I heard about some who had issues with a rough trigger pull. This one travels a little more than I would like but it is CCW carry gun. I did some minor stone work on the action myself and it is smooth a warm butter!

It is a great shooting iron!!!

And damn small!


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