# MarSOC battalion to take joint command



## peefyloo (Sep 9, 2009)

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/news/2009/09/marine_marsoc_090709w/



> *MarSOC battalion to take joint command*
> 
> CAMP LEJEUNE, N.C. — Marine Corps Forces Special Operations Command is about to mark another first.
> 
> ...


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## Teufel (Sep 10, 2009)

I am interested to see how this works out.  I don't think MARSOC can sustain a CJSOTF obligation.  MARSOC has always wanted to grow too big too fast and this looks to be another case of that.  As an aside, the Marine Corps is under the impression that a large chunk of the original players are going to rotate back to the fleet in a year or so, let's see if that's going to happen.  That would have big time ramifications for both the recon and MARSOC communities.


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## 0699 (Sep 10, 2009)

Teufel said:


> I am interested to see how this works out.  I don't think MARSOC can sustain a CJSOTF obligation.  MARSOC has always wanted to grow too big too fast and this looks to be another case of that.  As an aside, *the Marine Corps is under the impression that a large chunk of the original players are going to rotate back to the fleet in a year or so*, let's see if that's going to happen.  That would have big time ramifications for both the recon and MARSOC communities.



This is how I remember it being sold to the Corps.  "We can get all this great training using SOCOM dollars, then rotate those guys back to the FMF and get SOCOM to train another group".  Even back then, I thought it was redonkulous.  How are we going to maintain the same standards as other SOCOM units if we rotate Marines in & out every three years?!?

Does MARSOC now have the infrastructure & backbone (I'm thinking comms mostly; go figure) to run a CJSOTF?  From what I understand there's not enough 06XX people (or gear) in the HQs to run a full-fledged site.  Meaning they'd have to pull in support from SOCOM or MEF units.  Be interesting to see what happens.


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## DA SWO (Sep 10, 2009)

0699 said:


> This is how I remember it being sold to the Corps.  "We can get all this great training using SOCOM dollars, then rotate those guys back to the FMF and get SOCOM to train another group".  Even back then, I thought it was redonkulous.  How are we going to maintain the same standards as other SOCOM units if we rotate Marines in & out every three years?!?
> 
> Does MARSOC now have the infrastructure & backbone (I'm thinking comms mostly; go figure) to run a CJSOTF?  From what I understand there's not enough 06XX people (or gear) in the HQs to run a full-fledged site.  Meaning they'd have to pull in support from SOCOM or MEF units.  Be interesting to see what happens.



Guess that's where the jointness will come in.  I wonder if the Marines calculated a loss rate for the guys coming from MarSOC back to the conventional units with there bullshit?  I'd love to see that re-enlistment rate.


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## KBAR-04 (Sep 10, 2009)

Just because they are taking command of a JSOTF does not mean they are going to supply the bulk of the forces for it. I was part of a Navy led CJSOTF in Afghanistan in 2002 and even though we were headed by a USN O-6 and had a SEAL element, the bulk of our forces were provided by 3rd SFG and also our allies.


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## 7point62 (Sep 10, 2009)

Why would MARSOC Marines _want_ to rotate back to the fleet? Or are they required to do so after so many years like SAS? Does this include enlisted & Os? I can see officers leaving for other assignments and commands as they progress in rank...but if I were MARSOC enlisted there's no way I'd want to go back to the FMF.


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## Teufel (Sep 10, 2009)

7point62 said:


> Why would MARSOC Marines _want_ to rotate back to the fleet? Or are they required to do so after so many years like SAS? Does this include enlisted & Os? I can see officers leaving for other assignments and commands as they progress in rank...but if I were MARSOC enlisted there's no way I'd want to go back to the FMF.



HQMC made an arrangement with SOCOM for all MARSOC Marines to come back to the fleet after a five year rotation.  They see it as getting a return on their investment.  The Marine Corps tries to do that with guys at oddball billets at the joint level as well.  That's how it is supposed to work out in theory, we'll see how it plays out in real life.


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## SCCO_Marine (Sep 11, 2009)

Teufel said:


> HQMC made an arrangement with SOCOM for all MARSOC Marines to come back to the fleet after a five year rotation.  They see it as getting a return on their investment.  The Marine Corps tries to do that with guys at oddball billets at the joint level as well.  That's how it is supposed to work out in theory, we'll see how it plays out in real life.



In the original agreement it was established that some Marines would stay in MARSOC thru-out their Careers. It was also agreed that all MARSOC Marines would be eligible to return to MARSOC after rotating back to the fleet for 1 contract.  

Thats why they're setting up the 07XX MOS field, the plan is to track all MARSOC Marines in the FMF & keep them current in training & TTPs.  

K.I.M. unlike the other services, w/bases all over the place, Marines operate fr/3 Main Bases w/MSOS Training Dets on both coasts, no unit is going to object to a Marine going TAD fr/time to time for advanced training that he can then share when he gets back.

There is also talk of rotating the MARSOC Marines directly into the Force Recon Companies.


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## Teufel (Sep 12, 2009)

SCCO_Marine said:


> In the original agreement it was established that some Marines would stay in MARSOC thru-out their Careers. It was also agreed that all MARSOC Marines would be eligible to return to MARSOC after rotating back to the fleet for 1 contract.
> 
> Thats why they're setting up the 07XX MOS field, the plan is to track all MARSOC Marines in the FMF & keep them current in training & TTPs.
> 
> ...



The 07XX MOS has not been approved yet.  There was also talk about making all MARSOC Marines 0321s and that has been shot down.  It's hard enough to keep Marines current in TTPS when they are working full time to maintain their proficiency.  I don't think units will not let their Marines go TAD to maintain currency if they only have six months to a year to work through their PTP, especially if those Marines are in a leadership billet.  

MARSOC Marines will not go back into the Force Recon companies unless they are 0321s and even then they are being screened just like anyone else.  MARSOC and Force Recon do not have the same mission and are organized differently.  Marines who have joined MSOB without having a reconnaissance background are not necessarily being prepared to conduct reconnaissance missions in support of infantry units.


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## SCCO_Marine (Sep 12, 2009)

Teufel said:


> I don't think units will not let their Marines go TAD to maintain currency if they only have six months to a year to work through their PTP, especially if those Marines are in a leadership billet.



Its going to be a situation of a lesser of 2 evils.

Unless the Corps' hand is forced then the Marines are coming back to the Fleet.  Then in order to re-incorporate them back into the MARSOC after their Fleet obligation SOCOM's going to demand they stay current during that time.  

I don't think that Fleet unit cmdr is going to have that much say in the matter.  They TAD Marines all the time for BS, plus I don't see many Unit having more then a few of these Marines at a time anyway.

Of course they'll find a way to make it less inconvenient on the Fleet cmdrs, but both sides must be appeased at the top, & bar forcing HQMC's hand I don't see how u get around it.

Its going to be a Semper Gumbi situation for the cmdrs in the Fleet.


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## Teufel (Sep 13, 2009)

SCCO_Marine said:


> Its going to be a situation of a lesser of 2 evils.
> 
> Unless the Corps' hand is forced then the Marines are coming back to the Fleet.  Then in order to re-incorporate them back into the MARSOC after their Fleet obligation SOCOM's going to demand they stay current during that time.
> 
> ...



Go ask SoloKing what happened when SOCOM and big Marine Corps battled over grooming standards.  It is pretty much impossible to force HQMC to do anything that HQMC doesn't want to do.  For example, SOCOM recommended a Marine to command MARSOC based on his extensive background in special operations.  HQMC instead went with someone who would represent HQMC.  This is why guys like Col Coates and Col Bristol aren't running MARSOC right now.  The Marine Corps sees them as "too SOF" and wants someone in command who will toe the part line.  

The fleet unit commanders will do whatever they want.  It doesn't matter what SOCOM says, those Marine wont' remain current.  What do you define as remaining current?  It takes a lot of time and effort to remain current.  This is why most 0321s don't leave the fleet.  It's not as simple as doing a couple of jumps every couple of months.  If the unit commanders are forced to keep their MARSOC Marines "current" they will use their imagination to interpret what that means and their guys won't get much training.


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## DA SWO (Sep 13, 2009)

and MarSoc will suffer in the long run.


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## Teufel (Sep 13, 2009)

Isn't that what the SF suffered through before they got their own MOS/branch?  I know the Marine Reconnaissance community suffered from that before 0321 became a primary.


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## 7point62 (Sep 15, 2009)

Teufel said:


> ...when SOCOM and big Marine Corps battled over grooming standards...




Now _that_ would have been interesting.


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## JimMCpog (Oct 27, 2009)

SOWT said:


> and MarSoc will suffer in the long run.



They may head to the other branches and try to make it with their special operations forces. I remember reading a report crafted by Naval Special Warfare on diversity, and there was an anecdote about 12% of Special Forces being comprised of former Marines or Navy Corpsmen. I would bet many of them were formerly Force Recon Marines and SARCS. Seeing that this report was from the late 90's, that would be before HQMC made Recon Man a primary MOS.

I also remember reading a Marine Corps Times article about a Marine leaving MSOAG and taking all of his training with him to the Army. He said he was going to try for Special Forces.


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## LongTabSigO (Oct 27, 2009)

KBAR-04 said:


> Just because they are taking command of a JSOTF does not mean they are going to supply the bulk of the forces for it. I was part of a Navy led CJSOTF in Afghanistan in 2002 and even though we were headed by a USN O-6 and had a SEAL element, the bulk of our forces were provided by 3rd SFG and also our allies.



Too Right.

Bottom line is that only the SF Groups are even close to the structure to not only C2 a (C)JSOTF, but provide logistical, comms, and other enabler support.

Everyone wants to _command_ a JSOTF.  Very few type units can actually _run_ one.


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## LongTabSigO (Oct 27, 2009)

0699 said:


> This is how I remember it being sold to the Corps.  "We can get all this great training using SOCOM dollars, then rotate those guys back to the FMF and get SOCOM to train another group".  Even back then, I thought it was redonkulous.  How are we going to maintain the same standards as other SOCOM units if we rotate Marines in & out every three years?!?



MFP-11 was not established as training dollars for the Sea Services.  



> Does MARSOC now have the infrastructure & backbone (I'm thinking comms mostly; go figure) to run a CJSOTF?  From what I understand there's not enough 06XX people (or gear) in the HQs to run a full-fledged site.  Meaning they'd have to pull in support from SOCOM or MEF units.  Be interesting to see what happens.



Short answer? No.  They'd be hard pressed to run a SOTF, much less the full JSOTF package.

It's not just people.  It's the whole comms infrastructure.  They chose not to invest in that when forming  MARSOC.  :doh:


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## SCCO_Marine (Oct 28, 2009)

LongTabSigO said:


> MFP-11 was not established as training dollars for the Sea Services.
> 
> [QUOTE}Does MARSOC now have the infrastructure & backbone (I'm thinking comms mostly; go figure) to run a CJSOTF?  From what I understand there's not enough 06XX people (or gear) in the HQs to run a full-fledged site.  Meaning they'd have to pull in support from SOCOM or MEF units.  Be interesting to see what happens.





LongTabSigO said:


> Short answer? No.  They'd be hard pressed to run a SOTF, much less the full JSOTF package.
> 
> It's not just people.  It's the whole comms infrastructure.  They chose not to invest in that when forming  MARSOC.  :doh:



Its not that MarSOC can't run a JSOTF or that they chose not to invest in their comm infrastructure, THEY'RE NOT YET FULLY STAFFED, they're still building.

They're not even required to be Fully Staffed or at Full Mission Capability until 2012 inwhich they are well ahead of.

Since their 1st year in '06 they had to build an organization while being tasked by SOCom to contribute to Operations b/c SOCom was shorthanded.  Now their being tasked to run a JSOTF.

To accept this type of responsibility while still building shows the Marines' level of commitment to the success of SOCom's mission & SOCom's confidence in MarSOC.


I don't see how you make the leap fr/ borrowing some support guys b/c they're still building to being incapable of running a Staff or Ops.


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## tigerstr (Oct 29, 2009)

Actually there is no mention in the press about MARSOC getting a CJSOTF (O-6) command. They will get a SOTF, Battalion level (O-5) command which concerning Command Control and Commo, seems a relatively smaller and simpler HQ undertaking. And on the first rotation they will be “set up for success” along the way with equipment and experience.

Regarding rotation/retention of MARSOC enlisted personel, forgive me for possibly getting out of my lane but I think that the most feasible way of making things work a little better, is to make MARSOC a more mature organization, with MSGT  as Team SNCOs and Gunnery SGTs as smaller element leaders with SSGTs and some SGTs making up the bulk of the Team. This means that comparable positions in HQ elements MSOS etc, should also be raised.

Keep in mind, a 12 man SF Team nominally has a Warrant Officer XO, one MSGT, 5 SFC and 4 SSGTs. 

In other words, entry level for Marines should be from 5-6y TIS. This way a SGT entering MARSOC at say the 7th year of service would actually serve just one 3 year tour outside of MARSOC (as a SNCO) until 20 years of service, or 2 tours until 25 years. 

Regarding billets, maybe Recon, SOTGs, the new MC Training Advisor Group and possible Security Cooperation MAGTF billets (if the Corps establishes them) with some B-billets like Marine Security Guard Detachment SNCO (all of them have to do either with special skills or with language and cultural awareness) would probably be “acceptable” from operators for an out rotation and also associated with MARSOC skills and keeping current at least partialy.

Just an opinion from an outsider


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## LongTabSigO (Oct 30, 2009)

> Actually there is no mention in the press about MARSOC getting a CJSOTF (O-6) command. They will get a SOTF, Battalion level (O-5) command which concerning Command Control and Commo, seems a relatively smaller and simpler HQ undertaking. And on the first rotation they will be “set up for success” along the way with equipment and experience.



After I posted, I rechecked and my info is the same - a bn-level operation.  Doesn't change my thoughts on it; just focuses the lens a bit more.

Having said that, what I think many miss regarding these Task Forces is that SF units were built with this mission in mind.  With relatively little supplement, any SF Battalion HQ is able to take on the SOTF mission; same-same with a Group HQ  The other Services (and a lot of ARSOF) chose economy of force (to put it politely) and did not put forces against those missions.  

I was once told by an NCO from one of the Sea Services that all you need to run a SOTF was 2 TAC-Sat radios, claiming that "you Army guys way-overthink this whole C2 thing". :doh:  I was hoping he was just yanking my chain, but he was dead serious.


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## car (Oct 30, 2009)

Excellent thread, guys!


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## nograndpas (Oct 30, 2009)

maybe this sounds too simple and to the wind, but i say, let's wait and see how the next commandant steers this thing. to include tour length, MOS creation, and personnel numbers.


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## LongTabSigO (Oct 30, 2009)

SCCO_Marine said:


> > Its not that MarSOC can't run a JSOTF or that they chose not to invest in their comm infrastructure, THEY'RE NOT YET FULLY STAFFED, they're still building.
> >
> > They're not even required to be Fully Staffed or at Full Mission Capability until 2012 inwhich they are well ahead of.
> 
> ...


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## tigerstr (Oct 30, 2009)

LongTabSigO said:


> Having said that, what I think many miss regarding these Task Forces is that SF units were built with this mission in mind.  With relatively little supplement, any SF Battalion HQ is able to take on the SOTF mission; same-same with a Group HQ  The other Services (and a lot of ARSOF) chose economy of force (to put it politely) and did not put forces against those missions.




No doubt about what you say. Especially about SF Battalions being most capable in the SOTF role. As you say they were designed that way.

So, maybe MARSOCs first time in the SOTF business is going to be tough. I can’t argue with that. I do not know in detail their staffing and C3 arrangements and I am vaguely familiar with the way SF runs them (mainly from Special Warfare articles). 

But I got some points to make.

1) Marines have experience in complicated three dimensional expeditionary amphibious operations, obviously difficult to coordinate, and their MAGTF concept is considered very effective. It helps them a lot in Expeditionary C3.

2) Mostly their SOTF will control Marine Companies and I imagine they know how and have the means to do that. 

3) By now it’s pretty obvious (if you put together pieces of open information and official comments) that long-term MARSOC aims to be an “expeditionary” SF-like force concentrated in certain areas of the world, more or less near the littorals. 

So I bet you that this “first time” will aid them greatly in getting their version of an SF Battalion-SOTF (I am certain there is going to be a “Marine” version of it) together for next year. 

After all, that’s what they did after their first SOF Company tours in Afghanistan during 2007. They redesigned them into a form that in a way resembles a SF company “task organised” with CS and CSS supporting elements (enablers and support as they call them)

I cant be specific (don’t have the info for that) but it seems that after 2007 they got a bit out of their ‘high tooth to tail ratio” mentality and their SOTF will have –at least broadly- comparable  numbers regarding C3, CS  and CSS capability, with a SF Battalion-SOTF.

By now they know what they want to do and I am pretty positive that they will make an effort to pull through without serious problems this first time, and to sustain their success , even if strains some of their “high demand low density” assets.


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## SCCO_Marine (Nov 1, 2009)

LongTabSigO;336427][quote=SCCO_Marine said:


> Even at full staffing, they are not set up to do this in a sustained fashion.
> 
> 
> 
> It's not a leap. It's an informed assessment.




_Informed_... I like that.  

So you know the MarSOC MSOB's full staffing... really?  

What is it? What's their T/O??

How about an MSOC?

Your passing judgments on not just their present "building" structure but also their future structure when their Full Missions Capable.

Ok... What's their 2012 Full Missions Capable structure??


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## AWP (Nov 1, 2009)

SCCO_Marine;336903][quote=LongTabSigO said:


> _Informed_... I like that.
> 
> So you know the MarSOC MSOB's full staffing... really?
> 
> ...



How many JSOTF's have you been a part of? How much time do you have in a SOF environment? An MSOC? An MSOB?

I'm not being a dick, but your profile is thin in regard to the above questions. LongTabSigO is quite familiar with a JSOTF, I think we'd like to know more about your involvement with them.


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## Teufel (Nov 2, 2009)

Freefalling;336911][quote=SCCO_Marine said:


> How many JSOTF's have you been a part of? How much time do you have in a SOF environment? An MSOC? An MSOB?
> 
> I'm not being a dick, but your profile is thin in regard to the above questions. LongTabSigO is quite familiar with a JSOTF, I think we'd like to know more about your involvement with them.



Without getting into the T/O of 1st and 2nd MSOB, refer to this post:



Teufel said:


> ....  I don't think MARSOC can sustain a CJSOTF obligation.  MARSOC has always wanted to grow too big too fast and this looks to be another case of that.



Long tab Sig O is not off the mark.  This will probably end up working for a rotation but this is not sustainable.  Committing to a battalion sized OIF rotation killed the recon battalions; I hope it does not have the same affect on MARSOC.  To me this sounds like another 4th MEBism.


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## LongTabSigO (Nov 2, 2009)

tigerstr said:


> No doubt about what you say. Especially about SF Battalions being most capable in the SOTF role. As you say they were designed that way.
> 
> So, maybe MARSOCs first time in the SOTF business is going to be tough. I can’t argue with that. I do not know in detail their staffing and C3 arrangements and I am vaguely familiar with the way SF runs them (mainly from Special Warfare articles).



I fear that the theme of this thread has devolved to "we hope they fail" which is far from the truth.  Nothing would make me happier than to read about successful SOTFs run by other SOF units.

I just was pointing out that this SOTF mission is not just some hip-shot a unit does on a lark.


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## SCCO_Marine (Nov 2, 2009)

Freefalling said:


> How many JSOTF's have you been a part of? How much time do you have in a SOF environment? An MSOC? An MSOB?
> 
> I'm not being a dick, but your profile is thin in regard to the above questions. LongTabSigO is quite familiar with a JSOTF, I think we'd like to know more about your involvement with them.



But you are being a dick.  He made a statement that at full staffing (2012 staff) they would not be able to sustain a SOTF.  

At present state, while building, they're borrowing support fr/the SF, his statement was even the future fully staffed structure would be insufficient.

How does he know? They haven't released what a fully staffed MSOB will even eventually look like b/c its still shaping up, & THAT'S THE POINT.

But you became a dick & not an Administrator when you tried to shift the focus to my profile b/c I asked a Q?, how does he know about something that has not been officially solidified.  A valid Question?



LongTabSigO said:


> I fear that the theme of this thread has devolved to "we hope they fail" which is far from the truth.  Nothing would make me happier than to read about successful SOTFs run by other SOF units.
> 
> I just was pointing out that this SOTF mission is not just some hip-shot a unit does on a lark.



It has & maybe that wasn't your intention but thats water under a bridge.

If you have comments about XY&Z say it, I'd like to hear it, it makes for good discussion.  But if its conjecture say its conjecture & we can run w/it, if its fact same thing.  

But if you state something as fact I'm going to ask why & how do you know, its nothing personal.


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## AWP (Nov 2, 2009)

SCCO_Marine said:


> But you are being a dick.  He made a statement that at full staffing (2012 staff) they would not be able to sustain a SOTF.
> 
> At present state, while building, they're borrowing support fr/the SF, his statement was even the future fully staffed structure would be insufficient.
> 
> ...



Here's how it works: you don't get to jump on someone and a statement, especially about a topic like this, without having some knowledge of said topic. Your profile indicates that you about 0 days in a SOF environment or on staff on a SOTF/ JSOTF/ CJSOTF. That being the case you are talking out of your ass and I would ask anyone in a similar situation to explain what background they possess to make such statements.

Valid questions met with attitude won’t fly around here. This isn’t the first time you’ve extended yourself far outside of your lane, even your fellow Marines are commenting on your behavior. You are embarrassing them.

7 days on the beach unless another staff member wants to make it longer.


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## LongTabSigO (Nov 2, 2009)

SCCO_Marine said:


> ...snip....



I'll pass on commenting on your ill-tempered remarks to Free except to say this - rudeness and crass comments do not strengthen your position (however well informed).

I am going to see what, if anything can be shared here (consistent with good OPSEC) in the way of updates to either support or refute our positions.


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## AWP (Nov 2, 2009)

If anyone has an issue with SCCO's vacation, by all means, send myself or any other staff member a PM.

Back to the show.

Having done a number of JSOTF's in a training environment, and not knowing what the Corps does or does not have, I will say that you can't take a group of professionals and shoehorn them into a few buildings and call it good. You wouldn't think that a lot of "moving parts" exist, and indeed some sections are kind of on auto-pilot, but the comm requirements alone in a modern environment are pretty steep. Like it or not, we've evolved to a point where a number of support geeks are needed in such an enterprise to maximize the potential of the door kickers.


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## SoloKing (Nov 2, 2009)

Teufel said:


> I am interested to see how this works out.  I don't think MARSOC can sustain a CJSOTF obligation.  MARSOC has always wanted to grow too big too fast and this looks to be another case of that.  As an aside, the Marine Corps is under the impression that a large chunk of the original players are going to rotate back to the fleet in a year or so, let's see if that's going to happen.  That would have big time ramifications for both the recon and MARSOC communities.



I can't agree with you more man, way too fast, this is going to be ugly here really soon.


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## SoloKing (Nov 2, 2009)

7point62 said:


> Why would MARSOC Marines _want_ to rotate back to the fleet? Or are they required to do so after so many years like SAS? Does this include enlisted & Os? I can see officers leaving for other assignments and commands as they progress in rank...but if I were MARSOC enlisted there's no way I'd want to go back to the FMF.



Right now enlisted get 5 years and Os get 3 years, then we have to go back to the fleet or B billets, after wich we can come back. Its a recipe for complet failure, but the commandant and other senior leaders don't listen. It's a huge frustration to us all. I'm just now getting good at my job and now they want me to leave to go be a company gunny and hand out MREs for 4 years in a infantry BN so I can loose all the skill sets I'v busted my ass to aquire.


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## SoloKing (Nov 2, 2009)

SOWT said:


> Guess that's where the jointness will come in.  I wonder if the Marines calculated a loss rate for the guys coming from MarSOC back to the conventional units with there bullshit?  I'd love to see that re-enlistment rate.



Yep, guys in my team, really quality dudes, are getting out because of this shit. It's fucking sad. Guys are turning down $90,000 tax free and getting out, and the command can't understand "Why?".


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## JimMCpog (Nov 6, 2009)

SoloKing said:


> I can't agree with you more man, way too fast, this is going to be ugly here really soon.



Hi, just wondering if the area they're responsible for will impact it in a positive way? Like northwest Afghanistan might be less dangerous than the northeast or southeast? Or will it be ugly regardless of where they are in Afghanistan.


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## JimMCpog (Nov 6, 2009)

SoloKing said:


> Yep, guys in my team, really quality dudes, are getting out because of this shit. It's fucking sad. Guys are turning down $90,000 tax free and getting out, and the command can't understand "Why?".



http://neighborofchoice.org/article.php?aid=13381

http://www.marsoc.usmc.mil/news/Wrigley.htm
The second link does not include Sgt. Wrigley's career move.


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## vsquared (Nov 27, 2009)

Wow, looks like a conspiracy to me. I do not have resident knowledge because I am not in MARSOC but I know a few guys over there and I absolutely know what this current command regime is like. They are more worried about base beautification and Marines wearing uniforms properly than getting us the proper gear to execute our mission, whatever it may be. Here's an example, we just got a new sign in front of the Staff NCO club that cost $4,500. My unit asked for charging handle extenders for our M-4s/M16A4s. No money for it. Those things are $25 a piece at the most and we only wanted them for a little over one hundred Marines. WTF? I know the money for that sign comes from a different pot than the money needed for the charging handle extender but it all has to start somewhere before it is disseminated out. I personally thing today's military Army Navy Marine Corps, Air Force whatever you are in, is way too pampered. If you have ever been to a FOB in Iraq, you know what I am talking about. I was on a transition team over there and it used to make me sick to come on a FOB (the few times we did) and look at the crap made available to military members. Okay, I'll get off of my highhorse.


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## surgicalcric (Nov 28, 2009)

vsquared said:


> I personally thing today's military Army Navy Marine Corps, Air Force whatever you are in, is way too pampered...



AMEN...


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## vdat (Nov 29, 2009)

I found this second to last comment very comical as well - when I was in Al Asad, I used to refer to at MCRD Al Asad - an indoor pool...seriously?  Ramadi was the best time because it was all in the dirt, but as far as spending goes - I also know that one of our base operations areas spent $2k on a TV to display one PowerPoint slide.  Sadly enough, I do know how it works with finances and how they break it all up...use it or lose it.


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## 0699 (Nov 30, 2009)

vdat said:


> I found this second to last comment very comical as well - when I was in Al Asad, I used to refer to at *MCRD Al Asad - an indoor pool*...seriously?  Ramadi was the best time because it was all in the dirt, but as far as spending goes - I also know that one of our base operations areas spent $2k on a TV to display one PowerPoint slide.  Sadly enough, I do know how it works with finances and how they break it all up...use it or lose it.


 
It's not like it was heated pool...


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## vdat (Dec 2, 2009)

Actually - I believe it was - wasn't it?  So let me catch up a bit on the initial intent of this thread - I don't mind us taking a joint command; however, I do not believe in the least we need to give the impression we are a sustainment force - one of the good things that General Conway has moved us away from...but...we do need to show more presence because as we all know all the other services are gunning to get rid of us - if you haven't seen the latest moves by the Air Force...and even the Navy....we have to keep what we have. Once again..America doesn't need us, they want us.  Why don't they need us...because they can throw enough money at other programs to get the operations done - it may not be done right or efficiently like the Marines, but it will eventually get done. I'll step off the horse now.


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## 0699 (Dec 2, 2009)

vdat said:


> *Actually - I believe it was - wasn't it?*  So let me catch up a bit on the initial intent of this thread - I don't mind us taking a joint command; however, I do not believe in the least we need to give the impression we are a sustainment force - one of the good things that General Conway has moved us away from...but...we do need to show more presence because as we all know all the other services are gunning to get rid of us - if you haven't seen the latest moves by the Air Force...and even the Navy....we have to keep what we have. Once again..America doesn't need us, they want us.  Why don't they need us...because they can throw enough money at other programs to get the operations done - it may not be done right or efficiently like the Marines, but it will eventually get done. I'll step off the horse now.


 
Wasn't in 2007.  Or maybe they just turned the heat off to be "hard corps"...


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## Thumper (Dec 3, 2009)

tigerstr said:


> No doubt about what you say. Especially about SF Battalions being most capable in the SOTF role. As you say they were designed that way.
> 
> So, maybe MARSOCs first time in the SOTF business is going to be tough. I can’t argue with that. I do not know in detail their staffing and C3 arrangements and I am vaguely familiar with the way SF runs them (mainly from Special Warfare articles).
> 
> ...



Very good comments, and very close to the "truth".

There have been and currently are numerous things that we as MARSOF operators / staff do very well as a SOTF (currently conducting numerous successful missions with ANA, MSOTs and ODA's).  Two of our first MSOC's in Af actually had multiple ODAs under their control and were infact doing more than their original SOTF could provide for them due to long distant C&C relationships.  Not trying to say that the MSOCs were doing it better than the SOTFs by any means, just saying that those Major's & MSgt's were doing really good things.  Huge prop's go out to those ODAs who were extremely professional and were both accepting of our strengths / flaws.

Unfortunately, you are also right in your assumption that manning a SOTF for more than 12 to 18 months will be extremely tough on MARSOC.  We don't have a lot of trained staff guys and are filling the SOTF with actual CSOs.  This may make us stronger initially, but also could cripple us for years to come.  We shall see as we grow under our new Commanding General and as our original Force Recon members rotate and the newly grown CSOs fill their places in deployments.

Great site and lots of "interesting" info flowing though the pages.


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