# Trump & Mexico



## Red-Dot (Jun 25, 2015)

I don't think Trump is going to be invited to Tijuana for tacos and tequila anytime soon.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/06/18/us-usa-election-trump-mexico-idUSKBN0OX06920150618


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## Brill (Jun 25, 2015)

#2 in New Hampshire though.


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## Salt USMC (Jun 25, 2015)

The Republican party has some serious issues if a clown like Trump is polling well in ANY state


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## Red-Dot (Jun 25, 2015)

Hmmm.... Trump or Hillary......okay Trump wins that one.


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## racing_kitty (Jun 26, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> The Republican party has some serious issues if a clown like Trump is polling well in ANY state


The Republican Party, in relation to the Democrats, is starting to resemble Trotsky in the shadow of Lenin.


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

If Donald Trump ends up by some calamity becoming president. Well I would say that is a problem.


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## HOLLiS (Jul 6, 2015)

I guess on the bright side,  Trump is providing our comedians with years 
worth of great material.


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## DA SWO (Jul 6, 2015)

He's also saying things that respected politicians need to say (too bad the showmanship is overriding content).

He has zero chance of making it through the primaries, I don't care was the liberals in NH say or how they vote.

That said, calling Mexico and China out is long overdue, from either side of the aisle.


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> He's also saying things that respected politicians need to say (too bad the showmanship is overriding content).
> 
> He has zero chance of making it through the primaries, I don't care was the liberals in NH say or how they vote.
> 
> That said, calling Mexico and China out is long overdue, from either side of the aisle.


Ok on China  I am with you but Mexico ?


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## JBS (Jul 6, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> The Republican party has some serious issues if a clown like Trump is polling well in ANY state





Rodlfo99 said:


> If Donald Trump ends up by some calamity becoming president. Well I would say that is a problem.



Yeah, guys let's hope an actual businessman with actual accomplishments doesn't get elected.   What we need is another President like Obama, who- before being elected- never actually did anthing professionally except get elected and then vote "PRESENT" about 690 times while serving as a junior Senator.    

By the way, I agree with everything Trump said.    He's the only high profile public figure willing to say the truth.


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## DA SWO (Jul 6, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> Ok on China  I am with you but Mexico ?


Ya Mexico.
A fucking corrupt country that gleefully sticks it to American Citizens while we insist on playing nice.
Compare immigration laws.
Compare what happens to a US citizen who accidentally enters their territory with a firearm, to what happens when a Mexican brings an unregistered NFA weapon into the US.
Look at how Mexico secures it's southern border, and look at their statements regarding OUR southern border.
In short, fuck Mexico.


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## JBS (Jul 6, 2015)

Just to recap- the Left would rather hire Junior Senators who never ran a lemonade stand (like Obama) and career politicians (like Billary) with zero private sector experience, than _ actual billionaire genius businessmen like Trump and Romney to run the biggest economy in history._

THAT makes sense.


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

You know your talking to a mexican right . I love this country heck I was raised here all my life came here as an infant but still really ?I am more tan willing to have a civil discussion .


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

JBS said:


> Just to recap- the Left would rather hire Junior Senators who never ran a lemonade stand (like Obama) and career politicians (like Billary) with zero private sector experience, than _ actual billionaire genius businessmen like Trump and Romney to run the biggest economy in history._


Yes but there is more to it my friend than the economy it's what it is .


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## JBS (Jul 6, 2015)

@Rodlfo99, are you denying that the United States has an unchecked immigration problem on the border it shares with Mexico- as well as a huge influx of non-Mexican immigrants from all across Central and South America?

Tens of thousands are coming in, and some (small but unknown) percentage of them are criminals, murderers, drug dealers, rapists and terrorists.


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## JBS (Jul 6, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> You know your talking to a mexican right . I love this country heck I was raised here all my life came here as an infant but still really ?I am more tan willing to have a civil discussion .



Your ethnicity or nationality doesn't have anything to do with the broken border we share with Mexico.   It matters to me as much as it would if you were Chinese or German or French.  The border with Mexico is broken and porous and we arrest international fugitives from all across Central and S. America every day... and they will readily admit themselves that they came through Mexico.



Rodlfo99 said:


> Yes but there is more to it my friend than the economy it's what it is .



 That's true but America is trillions in debt.     Hiring a financial genius, an international business Guru would be a great place to start.


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

JBS said:


> @Rodlfo99, are you denying that the United States has an unchecked immigration problem on the border it shares with Mexico- as well as a huge influx of non-Mexican immigrants from all across Central and South America?
> 
> Tens of thousands are coming in, and some (small but unknown) percentage of them are criminals, murderers, drug dealers, rapists and terrorists.


Well here's the thing this country was founded on immigration so under that logic then we have always had that problem . If you are saying we need to fix the immigration systemI understand but I will get to the point which is  dialog not hate my friend those comments by Trump  were hate .


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

JBS said:


> Your ethnicity or nationality doesn't have anything to do with the broken border we share with Mexico.   It matters to me as much as it would if you were Chinese or German or French.  The border with Mexico is broken and porous and we arrest international fugitives from all across Central and S. America every day... and they will readily admit themselves that they came through Mexico.
> 
> 
> 
> The response yo are referring to  was meant as a response for Da SWO.


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

My mistake I put it all in a quote by accident but yes the response you are referring to was meant as a response for Da SWO.


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## pardus (Jul 6, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> Well here's the thing this country was founded on immigration so under that logic then we have always had that problem . If you are saying we need to fix the immigration systemI understand but I will get to the point which is  dialog not hate my friend those comments by Trump  were hate .



The central and south Americans that are crossing our southern border are not immigrants. They are illegal aliens. Criminals.
This country was populated in large numbers by legal immigrants. Don't confuse the two. 



Rodlfo99 said:


> You know your talking to a mexican right . I love this country heck I was raised here all my life came here as an infant but still really ?I am more tan willing to have a civil discussion .



Why did you say this?


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

Why did you say this?[/QUOTE]
With respect to the second response  I have unfortunately found that a necessary thing to say over the years so it is a habit of sorts .


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## pardus (Jul 6, 2015)




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## DA SWO (Jul 6, 2015)

Y


Rodlfo99 said:


> You know your talking to a mexican right . I love this country heck I was raised here all my life came here as an infant but still really ?I am more tan willing to have a civil discussion .


You know you are talking to an American, more red, white, and blue than anything right?

Show me where my statements are wrong?

FWIW- The majority of the illegals coming across right now are Chinese, Pakistani's and other Arabs of unknown origin.


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## JBS (Jul 6, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> Well here's the thing this country was founded on immigration so under that logic then we have always had that problem . If you are saying we need to fix the immigration systemI understand but I will get to the point which is  dialog not hate my friend those comments by Trump  were hate .



Would you mind showing me where Trump's words demonstrate hate?   It's entirely possible that he went off somewhere on television without my noticing.  I watch very little TV these days.

My understanding is he made a factual statement that (although factual) offended some people.

If it was rhetorical hate, and you are offended, then you have a right to be.   If it was actual facts and you were offended, then I would probably reconsider my position if I were you.


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

JBS said:


> Would you mind showing me where Trump's words demonstrate hate?   It's entirely possible that he went off somewhere on television without my noticing.  I watch very little TV these days.
> 
> My understanding is he made a factual statement that (although factual) offended some people.
> 
> If it was rhetorical hate, and you are offended, then you have a right to be.   If it was actual facts and you were offended, then I would probably reconsider my position if I were you.


Well let us see  he said that mexico sends people who bring drugs , crime and are rapist . The thing is for starters is mexico's government  is not sending anyone at all and second yes drug trafficking is a major problem also there is overlap with human smuggling   so yes some people are smugglers but it is not that straightforward. The next thing he said is that they bring crime but there have been studies that show no correlation between immigration and crime . Also as far as rapes he sights an article by Fusion which is part of univision which describes the struggle many migrant women go through in which some are raped in mexico by corrupt mexican officials and the smugglers themselves not by other migrants .  So yes I am offended but I am fended since it is BS so any questions ?


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

A quick correction to make things clear the portion ere I say some are smugglers I should also add in criminals and bastards which means nothing since they exist everywhere .


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Y
> 
> You know you are talking to an American, more red, white, and blue than anything right?
> 
> ...


Well yeah the whole fuck mexico part is what kind of for lack of a better  word got me so my comment was a bit too much since you did not mention the mexican people so my mistake  and yes the government and mexico is messed up  I agree with you there .


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## DA SWO (Jul 6, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> Well let us see  he said that mexico sends people who bring drugs , crime and are rapist . The thing is for starters is mexico's government  is not sending anyone at all and second yes drug trafficking is a major problem also there is overlap with human smuggling   so yes some people are smugglers but it is not that straightforward. The next thing he said is that they bring crime but there have been studies that show no correlation between immigration and crime . Also as far as rapes he sights an article by Fusion which is part of univision which describes the struggle many migrant women go through in which some are raped in mexico by corrupt mexican officials and the smugglers themselves not by other migrants .  So yes I am offended but I am fended since it is BS so any questions ?


Gov Mex facilitates the illegals by providing ID's.  Remember  that train with all the people on it last summer, you're saying no governmental authority could have ordered them off?
Rape sites are common along the TexMex border.
That lady killed in San Francisco over the weekend, do you want me to overlook the killers immigration status?
GovMex brought the drug problem on itself, so you get no sympathy from me.


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Gov Mex facilitates the illegals by providing ID's.  Remember  that train with all the people on it last summer, you're saying no governmental authority could have ordered them off?
> Rape sites are common along the TexMex border.
> That lady killed in San Francisco over the weekend, do you want me to overlook the killers immigration status?
> GovMex brought the drug problem on itself, so you get no sympathy from me.


Ok drug problem it is economics my friend supply and demand people here and in europe want the drugs so cartels supply them and yes deals were made that should never have been made but the american market is the cartels life blood it is what keeps them strong . Also that scandal u.s banks laundering cartel money which they knew it was also shed light on how the us banking system knowingly and or unknowingly helps keep them a float .  Also on the rae sites I will find out on that considering it could also be unrelated incidents since a rapist could also be wite and legal as much as a  mexican  immigrant . Also as far as  that poor women is concerned how man serial killers come out of this country and how many murders have been committed by people here my friend ? So that means what all that proves is a criminal could be from anywhere he could have been a recently paroled white guy for  Atlanta  although not in this case.


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

One last thing read up on human trafficking I think it would be enlightening.


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## Dienekes (Jul 6, 2015)

First, illegal immigrants break the laws of the nation they are going to, and basically spit in the face of everyone that went through the ridiculously long and arduous process to legally become citizens. What a great way to start off your journey into another country.

Second, there probably is no correlation between immigration and crime because the study probably uses legal immigration as its base. I'm assuming here, but I would love to be proven wrong so please post the study as I would like to see it. Illegal immigration is a huge security concern because you have no idea who you are letting into the country. I can say pretty confidently based on common sense that illegal immigrants are much more likely to be criminals than the people who go through the difficult process to immigrate legally. Not that all are criminals, obviously(other than the whole illegal immigrant thing).

Illegal immigration is bad for any country all the way around, but legal immigration is a great thing. It has been discussed very well on other threads in this forum.

https://shadowspear.com/vb/threads/immigration.19724/page-2


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

jroberts1187 said:


> First, illegal immigrants break the laws of the nation they are going to, and basically spit in the face of everyone that went through the ridiculously long and arduous process to legally become citizens. What a great way to start off your journey into another country.
> 
> Second, there probably is no correlation between immigration and crime because the study probably uses legal immigration as its base. I'm assuming here, but I would love to be proven wrong so please post the study as I would like to see it. Illegal immigration is a huge security concern because you have no idea who you are letting into the country. I can say pretty confidently based on common sense that illegal immigrants are much more likely to be criminals than the people who go through the difficult process to immigrate legally. Not that all are criminals, obviously(other than the whole illegal immigrant thing).
> 
> ...


Study is from Northwestern university and the point I tried to make in all of thi is that Trumps comments were very offensive , ignorant and founde in complete nonsense and frankly Trump getting to the white house even the thought scares me and he should not be president .


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 6, 2015)

It should be in all of this not in all of thi.


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## Salt USMC (Jul 6, 2015)

JBS said:


> Would you mind showing me where Trump's words demonstrate hate?   It's entirely possible that he went off somewhere on television without my noticing.  I watch very little TV these days.



Did you miss this?  





> “When Mexico sends its people, they’re not sending their best,” he said. “They’re sending people that have a lot of problems, and they’re bringing those problems with us. They’re bringing drugs. They’re bringing crime. They’re rapists. *And some, I assume, are good people*.”



How could that be construed as anything BUT hate?

It should also be noted that Donald Trump has declared bankruptcy four separate times.  "Brilliant businessman" might be a bit of a stretch.


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## racing_kitty (Jul 7, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Did you miss this?
> 
> How could that be construed as anything BUT hate?



Sounds like someone who didn't have a statistic in front of him making a lazy argument, if you ask me.  Is this hate? From the Boston Globe (hardly the voice of Storm Front), reporting on a failure to deport sex offenders:



> They are convicted rapists, child molesters, and kidnappers — among “the worst of the worst,” as one law enforcement agency put it. Yet the Globe found that immigration officials have released them without making sure they register with local authorities as sex offenders.
> 
> And once US Immigration and Customs Enforcement frees them, agency officials often lose track of the criminals, despite outstanding deportation orders against them. The Globe determined that Hernandez Carrera and several other offenders had failed to register as sex offenders, a crime. By law, police are supposed to investigate if such offenders fail to update their address within days of their release. But local officials said they did not learn that ICE had released the offenders until after the Globe inquired about their cases.



Not a large quantity if you actually read the whole article, so the generalization imparted by the use of the word "some" would also fit here.  

And let's not forget Francisco Sanchez, who was deported five times and still managed to kill someone in San Francisco, or Juan Francisco De Luna Vasquez, who was deported four times before he killed his wife in Laredo.  

As much as it leaves a taste in my mouth to say anything good about him, the Donald could have made a damned convincing argument about the number of violent criminals coming across the border simply with the statistics available from ICE and local law enforcement.  He'd still be accused of being a hatemonger.  This strikes me as more intellectual laziness than anything else.  Then again, he may realize that Americans are pretty fucking stupid nowadays.


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## x SF med (Jul 7, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> You know your talking to a mexican right . I love this country heck I was raised here all my life came here as an infant but still really ?I am more tan willing to have a civil discussion .



If you consider yourself a Mexican, and hold US citizenship, a passport, GTFO.   If you meant that you consider yourself an American of Mexican decent, that's another thing.

You do realize the 'undocumented' (read illegal) Mexican immigrants get more Government services per capita than Natural born American Citizens - citizens who keep the money here in the US instead of sending a large portion of Welfare and untaxed under the table wages to a foreign country, right?

Not one of the people on this board are against legal immigration, but illegal economic assault sanctioned by the government of a neighbor that decries we are racist and unfair, because we want to halt the flow of that neighbors unwanted into our workforce, and draining our economy by not paying taxes, getting government subsidies, stealing identities and sending the majority of those ill gotten gains to their country of birth; all the while making it difficult to cross the border into said country, unless you have a pile of money to spend on bribes and resorts - this does not sound like a reason for US citizens to take umbrage at the Mexi-fication of our country?

Read your Mao, Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Trotsky, Guevarra, Castro, Pinochet and Alinsky - overload of a government's capability is the first step in the takeover of that country.

Sorry kid, you are arguing with the wrong bunch of people if you think we're going to get overwhelmed by a sympathy call, especially when our southern 'neighbor' is asking us to do that which they are unwilling and economically incapable...


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## Ranger Psych (Jul 7, 2015)

Anyone who crosses the border ILLEGALLY *IS A CRIMINAL BY PURE DEFINITION.*

All the other terminology other than Illegal Immigrant (undocumented, bla bla bla) is literally lipsticking a pig and ignoring the factual issue of people daily breaking our nations federal laws by just bebopping across, nevermind the cottage industry IN mexico that assists facilitation therein.


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## DA SWO (Jul 7, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> Ok drug problem it is economics my friend supply and demand people here and in europe want the drugs so cartels supply them and yes deals were made that should never have been made but the american market is the cartels life blood it is what keeps them strong . Also that scandal u.s banks laundering cartel money which they knew it was also shed light on how the us banking system knowingly and or unknowingly helps keep them a float .  Also on the rae sites I will find out on that considering it could also be unrelated incidents since a rapist could also be wite and legal as much as a  mexican  immigrant . Also as far as  that poor women is concerned how man serial killers come out of this country and how many murders have been committed by people here my friend ? So that means what all that proves is a criminal could be from anywhere he could have been a recently paroled white guy for  Atlanta  although not in this case.


I love the Gov Mex stand that it's our fault for using drugs.
I'll agree with your point, but don't bitch cry and whine over firearms; because I will throw your supply and demand justification back at you.
Firearms wouldn't be flowing into Mexico if Mexicans didn't want them.
See how it works?
The Southern half of Texas deals with illegal immigration and the gang bangers (aka coyotes) on a daily basis.
Ranchers on the border can't have anything of value because the "good" people coming across the border steal everything in sight, to include kicking doors in if they feel like it.
Again, have you looked at Mexico's immigration policies?  You need to open your eyes a little bit.
Be proud of your heritage (understanding Mexican=1/2 European).


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 7, 2015)

I feel dumber having read this thread...


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## JBS (Jul 7, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> Well let us see  he said that mexico sends people who bring drugs , crime and are rapist . The thing is for starters is mexico's government  is not sending anyone at all and second yes drug trafficking is a major problem also there is overlap with human smuggling   so yes some people are smugglers but it is not that straightforward.



OK.  I'm listening.  How is it "not that straightforward"?    Seems to me like you agree drug and human smugglers and other criminals are coming in from Mexico.    Isn't this what Trump said?



> The next thing he said is that they bring crime but there have been studies that show no correlation between immigration and crime .



I think this is not true.  If I am wrong, please post a link to this study because it seems silly.  



> Also as far as rapes he sights an article by Fusion which is part of univision which describes the struggle many migrant women go through in which some are raped in mexico by corrupt mexican officials and the smugglers themselves not by other migrants .


   This might be true, but there are plenty of American women being raped by illegal immigrants across the Southwestern United States.   Should I ignore those things?


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 7, 2015)

JBS said:


> OK.  I'm listening.  How is it "not that straightforward"?    Seems to me like you agree drug and human smugglers and other criminals are coming in from Mexico.    Isn't this what Trump said?
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Here is the link http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/does_immigration_increase_crime


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 7, 2015)

Well on the final point yes and no I am not saying ignore anything it happens but read  about human trafficking in the u.s  in its entirety .


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## JBS (Jul 7, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Did you miss this?
> How could that be construed as anything BUT hate?



To be honest, yes I did miss that.   But after contemplating it, I draw a different conclusion than you do about it, and slightly different from @racing_kitty .   It looks to me like more of a smart-ass/snide remark, betraying his disgust with the whole topic.  He's begrudgingly acknowledging what we know- that plenty of "good" people are coming in, but that doesn't make the broken/porous border somehow "o.k.".



> It should also be noted that Donald Trump has declared bankruptcy four separate times.  "Brilliant businessman" might be a bit of a stretch.



Considering how many hundreds of different business lines he has, that's really nothing.   Right now he has more than $400 million cash in the bank personally, and owns over 30 million square feet of New York real estate.   He's figured out on his TV show (The Apprentice) how to get companies to pay him to have their products showcased.   In the same show, he also leverages B-grade TV stars to compete for charity events, and then he sold the show to NBC.  In other words, he gets charitable tax write offs, makes friends across the charity spectrum, has the opportunity to re-launch the careers of one or two TV/ movie stars every year, and makes money all at the same time, while building the Trump brand.   That's a fucking genius right there.


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 7, 2015)

Yes the point you are making beyond he knows how to kill his business deals ?



JBS said:


> To be honest, yes I did miss that.   But after contemplating it, I draw a different conclusion than you do about it, and slightly different from @racing_kitty .   It looks to me like more of a smart-ass/snide remark, betraying his disgust with the whole topic.  He's begrudgingly acknowledging what we know- that plenty of "good" people are coming in, but that doesn't make the broken/porous border somehow "o.k.".
> 
> 
> 
> Considering how many hundreds of different business lines he has, that's really nothing.   Right now he has more than $400 million cash in the bank personally, and owns over 30 million square feet of New York real estate.   He's figured out on his TV show (The Apprentice) how to get companies to pay him to have their products showcased.   In the same show, he also leverages B-grade TV stars to compete for charity events, and then he sold the show to NBC.  In other words, he gets charitable tax write offs, makes friends across the charity spectrum, has the opportunity to re-launch the careers of one or two TV/ movie stars every year, and makes money all at the same time, while building the Trump brand.   That's a fucking genius right there.



Yeah  so you want to put JTF 6 back on the border since it went so well last time .


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## HOLLiS (Jul 7, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> Here is the link http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/does_immigration_increase_crime




That is my understanding.  Undocumented/illegal aliens are also preyed upon once they are in the US by all sorts of people.   There was a large farming outfit that would pay their workers once a month.   About 4 days before payday, INS would get a phone call that there where illegals working there.   They would raid and haul them off back to Mexico,  then INS caught on.    Before hauling them off they would run them past payroll.    Funny thing those mysterious phone calls ended.   I live in agri/forest area.  From what I see and I am told most are very hard working, sending their money back to Mexico, living very frugally and avoiding trouble. 

I was on the board of directors of a Clinic in a large Hispanic area in Oregon.  Never a issue with anyone. 

Also   Trump stated, that there maybe and he wasn't sure some good people in the mix.     Implying that the preponderance where bad people. 

I worked LEO in Arizona long ago and my experience is so opposite of Trumps statement.   We did have a drug importation operates (air strips) but those people where not Mexicans.   We did catch white slavery operations too, again not Mexican.   According to the FBI the victims where to be sold in Las Vegas. 

Maybe the problem with Trump, he lives too high up in his castle to see the world at ground level. 

Gang bangers seems to be local born and bred.

Trump does has business skills.


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 7, 2015)

HOLLiS said:


> That is my understanding.  Undocumented/illegal aliens are also preyed upon once they are in the US by all sorts of people.   There was a large farming outfit that would pay their workers once a month.   About 4 days before payday, INS would get a phone call that there where illegals working there.   They would raid and haul them off back to Mexico,  then INS caught on.    Before hauling them off they would run them past payroll.    Funny thing those mysterious phone calls ended.   I live in agri/forest area.  From what I see and I am told most are very hard working, sending their money back to Mexico, living very frugally and avoiding trouble.
> 
> I was on the board of directors of a Clinic in a large Hispanic area in Oregon.  Never a issue with anyone.
> 
> ...


Yes you understand .


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## DA SWO (Jul 7, 2015)

Here is another viewpoint:

http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2015/07/06/mexican-elites-secretly-agree-with-trump.html


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## JWoody (Jul 7, 2015)

Anyways,  it's Tuesday.  Who's having tacos?


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## HOLLiS (Jul 7, 2015)

JWoody said:


> Anyways,  it's Tuesday.  Who's having tacos?




I made a burrito with salsa picante.   Yummy.    Me mas comidas Mexicano.

Maybe Turkey tacos this evening with a single malt.


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## JWoody (Jul 7, 2015)

I'd kill for a Chipotle bowl.  No hablo espanol.


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## JBS (Jul 7, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> Here is the link http://insight.kellogg.northwestern.edu/article/does_immigration_increase_crime


So I read the whole article which doesn't link to the study.

Right away I could see the article (if not the study) was biased, with the typical Left-leaning preoccupation with lancing whatever notion people might have that America is exceptional.



> "Immigration is central to the founding myth of the United States as the “land of opportunity.”


Can't even get past the first sentence without the writer slanting the notion that the United States is filled with opportunity as being false.  What's funnier is he's doing so in an article that discusses millions of people who flooded the United States for just such "mythical" opportunities at prosperity.


But the article gets deeper:


> "When you look at opinion surveys, three-quarters of Americans believe that immigration increases crime,” says Jörg Spenkuch, an assistant professor of managerial economics and decision sciences at Northwestern University’s Kellogg School of Management. In a recent paper, Spenkuch investigated the validity of this assumption. “It’s an empirical question,” Spenkuch says. “I wanted to know whether crime rates go up when immigrants come into the country—plain and simple.”



No, you pencil-pushing moron, we (Americans) believe * illegal* immigration increases crime.

HUGE difference.


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## JBS (Jul 7, 2015)

> The overall perspective of the criminal behavior of illegal aliens is grim. In a 2007 Government Accountability Office study of *55,322 illegal aliens, analysts discovered that they were arrested at least a total of 459,614 times, averaging about eight arrests per illegal alien: 70 percent had between two and 10 arrests,* and 26 percent (about 15,000) had 11 or more arrests. Drug or immigration offenses accounted for 45 percent of all offenses, and approximately 12 percent (over 6,600 illegal aliens) were arrested for violent offenses such as murder, robbery, assault, and sex-related crimes.[14] http://www.constitutionparty.com/illegal-alien-crime-and-violence-by-the-numbers-were-all-victims/



*An FBI crime study also shows heavy illegal alien involvement in criminal activity revealed these statistics:*


75 percent of those on the most wanted criminals list in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.
One quarter of all inmates in California detention centers are Mexican nationals, as are more than 40 percent of all inmates in Arizona and 48 percent in New Mexico jails.
Over 53 percent of all investigated burglaries reported in California, New Mexico, Nevada, Arizona, and Texas are perpetrated by illegal aliens.
63 percent of cited drivers in Arizona have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that number, 97 percent are illegal aliens. 66 percent of cited drivers in New Mexico have no license, no insurance and no registration for the vehicle. Of that 66 percent, 98 percent are illegal aliens.[15]


----------



## JBS (Jul 7, 2015)

"...illegal alien drunk drivers kill 13 Americans every day — that’s a death toll of 4,745 per year.[4]



> ... The 23 percent criminal traffic offenders figure is only part of the overall picture. According to the Center forImmigration Studies, another 23 percent, more than 43,000 illegal aliens, were convicted of drug offenses. The violent crime category of assault, robbery, sexual assault, and family offenses comes to 12 percent. The non-violent crime grouping of larceny, fraud, and burglary totaled seven percent, and on the list goes — equaling 100 percent of illegal aliens who have been through the criminal justice system and inflicted thousands to millions in cost per alien on the system, for issues having nothing to do with their illegal entry into the country.[5]




It's just silly to think that huge numbers of criminals of all kinds are not coming in along with those merely seeking honest work and a better future.    There are tens of thousands of criminals flooding in.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 7, 2015)

JWoody said:


> Anyways,  it's Tuesday.  Who's having tacos?


Me a short time ago.

Texas spends about 17 million a year on illegals, which is more than our budget deficit two years ago.


----------



## Rodlfo99 (Jul 7, 2015)

JBS said:


> *An FBI crime study also shows heavy illegal alien involvement in criminal activity revealed these statistics:*
> 
> 
> 75 percent of those on the most wanted criminals list in Los Angeles, Phoenix and Albuquerque are illegal aliens.
> ...


I could argue that the article  of this website http://www.constitutionparty.com/illegal-alien-crime-and-violence-by-the-numbers-were-all-victims/  is also biased and right leaning . Also send me the link to the study or at least give me the year released so could find it .


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## racing_kitty (Jul 7, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> I could argue that the article  of this website http://www.constitutionparty.com/illegal-alien-crime-and-violence-by-the-numbers-were-all-victims/  is also biased and right leaning . Also send me the link to the study or at least give me the year released so could find it .



"Oh yeah?  If my source is 'this,' then yours is just as bad because it's 'that,'" is a piss poor debate skill.  Also, while you are within your rights to request the link to the study itself, you hardly present yourself as "dignified opposition" when you simply demand it.  This is a contentious subject, as are several other topics here on the board, but please demonstrate some professionalism by showing some manners and not letting your temper get away from you.  This goes for everyone on this thread.


----------



## Centermass (Jul 7, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> Well let us see  he said that mexico sends people who bring drugs , crime and are rapist . The thing is for starters is mexico's government  is not sending anyone at all and second yes drug trafficking is a major problem also there is overlap with human smuggling   so yes some people are smugglers but it is not that straightforward. The next thing he said is that they bring crime but there have been studies *that show no correlation between immigration and crime .* Also as far as rapes he sights an article by Fusion which is part of univision which describes the struggle many migrant women go through in which some are raped in mexico by corrupt mexican officials and the smugglers themselves not by other migrants .  So yes I am offended but I am fended since it is BS so any questions ?



No correlation between ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and crime?

Well, let's see here.....

You've got the Mexican Mafia, which has a BIG stake at ILLEGAL cross border operations for one. Think drugs, weapons, currency and too much to list here. .

You've got coyotes, feeding off the dreams of those trying to enter the US the WRONG WAY and not only raping those their conveying, but using them as mules as well.

MS-13, Nortenos, Surenos, Nuestra Familia, La Eme, Sinaloa's, Los Zetas.......want me to keep going? First it was primarily CA, now it's nationwide. They are the largest network of gangs in the US. And yes, they shoot people, rob people, traffic people and peddle whatever kind of cash money drug, will line their pockets with benjamins. Use to be LA, Oakland and other places. Now, it could be smalltown, anywhere, America.   

And here's a news flash for you: If you think Trump was the first one to address this problem, you need to do some reading, other than the selective stuff that pads your opinions.

The main problem is when you have a leak, you have to shut the water supply off FIRST, before you can make a proper fix. Same thing with our borders. The Mexican Government could give a rats ass and 2 shits when someone heads north, but, they always get their panties in a wad, whenever a gringo goes south, for whatever reason, and the entire government goes ballistic and loses their minds. And here lately, they seem to get all uppity about us wanting to reinforce our dividing line.

As it was said earlier, crossing into the US, from any direction, without doing it properly, is A CRIME and makes you an ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT, no matter how well intentioned or upstanding their character may be.

And FWIW, I don't particularly like or dislike Trump, but I do like his swagger. At least the man isn't afraid to double down, stick to his beliefs, statements and willing it seems to be one of the few, to go straight for the jugular, and find that elephant in the room and dance with it. At least he doesn't say one thing out of one side of his mouth, and something else comes out of the other side.


----------



## Rodlfo99 (Jul 7, 2015)

Centermass said:


> No correlation between ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and crime?
> 
> Well, let's see here.....
> 
> ...


Well to your pint mexican mafia it is a prison gang that started and is still headquartered in california's jails  and also Ms-13 is not even mexican  it is a street gang started in L.A also La  eme is another name for the the mexican mafia. So here's another thing crime and assholes like the ones you mention are not unique to any country or group of people . The american mob or La cosa nostra as it is known   there still here , the irish gangs and the chinese triads also why only mexico no one said anything about illegal immigrants from elsewhere also if you want I would be than happy to give you examples  and also plenty of equally dangerous gangs here the hells angles ,the vagos , and who can forget the aryan brotherhood  among many others  . One last thing you are going to tell me that in the influx of immigration in the influx of immigration in the late 19th and early 20th century that everyone had documents really ?


----------



## racing_kitty (Jul 7, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> One last thing you are going to tell me that in the influx of immigration in the influx of immigration in the late 19th and early 20th century that everyone had documents really ?



They went through Ellis Island, Angel Island in California, or Galveston and processed through the immigration stations established at each of those locations.  That means they followed the laws as they were written at the time and immigrated legally.


----------



## Centermass (Jul 7, 2015)

Hey Rod........

You're the one who made the statement in your post there was no correlation between ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and crime. And yes, even though I'm not a rocket scientist, I've been around enough to know about the other gang problems. You really going to back track in your DeLorean at 88 mph to the 19th and early 20th century in defense of what's going on today in this country? Puhlease. RK made the point for me as I was writing. 

One other thing genius, don't even try to school me in gangs. I've dealt with all kinds, up close and personal for more years than you realize. And what I said sticks. Mexican Gangs are the largest in the US. And YES, THEY ARE A MAJOR PROBLEM and threat to the safety and security of every law abiding citizen in this country.


----------



## Rodlfo99 (Jul 7, 2015)

Centermass said:


> Hey Rod........
> 
> You're the one who made the statement in your post there was no correlation between ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and crime. And yes, even though I'm not a rocket scientist, I've been around enough to know about the other gang problems. You really going to back track in your DeLorean at 88 mph to the 19th and early 20th century in defense of what's going on today in this country? Puhlease. RK made the point for me as I was writing.
> 
> One other thing genius, don't even try to school me in gangs. I've dealt with all kinds, up close and personal for more years than you realize. And what I said sticks. Mexican Gangs are the largest in the US. And YES, THEY ARE A MAJOR PROBLEM and threat to the safety and security of every law abiding citizen in this country.


Yeah you've dealt with them guess what I grew up with a lot  of people who run in gangs so Ive dealt with them too so I'd know trust me . Also what's going on with the immigration debate not new so yes I back tracked to the 19th and early 20th century.


----------



## The Accountant (Jul 7, 2015)




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## pardus (Jul 7, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> One last thing you are going to tell me that in the influx of immigration in the influx of immigration in the late 19th and early 20th century that everyone had documents really ?



What has this got to do with anything? The 19th and 20th century immigrants were LEGAL. They went through due legal process to enter this country the right way.


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## Totentanz (Jul 7, 2015)

Centermass said:


> Hey Rod........
> 
> You're the one who made the statement in your post there was no correlation between ILLEGAL IMMIGRATION and crime. And yes, even though I'm not a rocket scientist, I've been around enough to know about the other gang problems. You really going to back track in your DeLorean at 88 mph to the 19th and early 20th century in defense of what's going on today in this country? Puhlease. RK made the point for me as I was writing.
> 
> One other thing genius, don't even try to school me in gangs. I've dealt with all kinds, up close and personal for more years than you realize. And what I said sticks. Mexican Gangs are the largest in the US. And YES, THEY ARE A MAJOR PROBLEM and threat to the safety and security of every law abiding citizen in this country.



Or you could just start with ILLEGAL immigration (axiomatically) being a crime, itself.  Autocorrelation = 1.


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## policemedic (Jul 8, 2015)

@Rodlfo99 

Perhaps you could explain why you feel it's OK for Mexicans (or anyone else, for that matter) to disregard the laws of a sovereign nation and cross its border illegally.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 8, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> Yeah you've dealt with them guess what I grew up with a lot  of people who run in gangs so Ive dealt with them too so I'd know trust me . Also what's going on with the immigration debate not new so yes I back tracked to the 19th and early 20th century.


You don't know what you're posting about.

Mexican Mafia is an international criminal organization, and their business of drug and sex trafficking is nation wide, but their major claim to fame is controlling the I35 and I10 corridor's that intersect in San Antonio TX. 

MS13, although rooted in El Salvador, is a Latin street gang that is prolific throughout major cities in the USA. 

But anyway, the idea that you can somewhat suggest that illegal immigrants who are breaking the law by being present inside the boarders of the USA. Well its simply dumb, its a crime period, hints the word criminal. As for some are okay and some are not, it doesn't matter as long as they are actively engaged in criminal behavior (being here illegally by breaking our current national immigration laws).


As for my opinion on Trump and his comments. I think he purposely used inflammatory language to drum up attention and successfully get everyone talking about him. I would say it worked quite well... You do not get to his level of wealth by making mistakes...


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 8, 2015)

Do Illegals make up 37% of our population.

http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...y-37-percent-of-federal-sentences-in-fy-2014/


----------



## Salt USMC (Jul 8, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Do Illegals make up 37% of our population.
> 
> http://www.breitbart.com/big-govern...y-37-percent-of-federal-sentences-in-fy-2014/


The numbers are shocking, yes, but there's a very important sentence in there:



> The data does include immigration violations, of which illegal immigrants represented by far the greatest number of cases: 91.6 percent, or (20,333 cases), out of a total 22,204 cases.



Here is the USSC report: http://www.ussc.gov/sites/default/f...ng-updates/USSC-2014-4th-Quarterly-Report.pdf
Look on page 47.

If we are talking about rates of violent crime in America, and illegal immigrant involvement in them, then I think it's important to reconsider those numbers.  As the quote says, the statistics list 20,333 instances of felony immigration violation (meaning getting caught at least twice) perpetrated by illegal immigrants.  Naturally, some of those offenses are going to be the ONLY offense for which the illegal immigrant was charged.  We should disregard those numbers.  Even though the table lists it as the "Primary offense category", we can probably assume that there are some with multiple felonies during that time period.  Regardless of that, the "37%" figure doesn't hold as much weight.

Don't get me wrong: *illegal immigration is a crime*.  I don't dispute that at all.  But since we are talking about illegal immigration and its effect on *violent* crime, which I argue does not cover simple immigration violations, it's not very relevant.


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## Rodlfo99 (Jul 8, 2015)

All right guys how about agree to disagree since this is jut gonna go back and forth from the looks of it .


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## policemedic (Jul 8, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> All right guys how about agree to disagree since this is jut gonna go back and forth from the looks of it .



In other words, you've realized your position is illogical and untenable and now wish to exit the debate.


----------



## Rodlfo99 (Jul 8, 2015)

policemedic said:


> In other words, you've realized your position is illogical and untenable and now wish to exit the debate.


No I have my opinions and you guys have yours so it is best to leave at that before I step on some toes if I haven't already also this argument  could go on along time  so it 's just best to end .


----------



## Etype (Jul 8, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> No I have my opinions and you guys have yours so it is best to leave at that before I step on some toes if I haven't already also this argument  could go on along time  so it 's just best to end .


What part of their argument is opinion based?

An illegal immigrant is a criminal, whether they commit any additional crimes or not.


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## AWP (Jul 8, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> All right guys how about agree to disagree since this is jut gonna go back and forth from the looks of it .



You can do that, but it won't change anything. The thread will exist and people will continue to make their points. The only question is will you continue to participate.

I'm not calling you out or taking a side, just stating things as a member of the staff.

Back to the thread.


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## AWP (Jul 8, 2015)

At the risk of being labeled an asshole by....well, everyone, the argument's moot. All of them. This boils down to one simple question.

Are we enforcing our existing laws, in the "high 9's" or even close? Until we do that our stats are worthless. Jobs, terrorism, human rights, Trump, a wall, aerostats, this JTF or that JTF, nerve gas....whatever you want to say, none of the stats or arguments matter until we're enforcing what exists. Once we do that we can move forward, but until then this is all mental and emotional masturbation.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 9, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> All right guys how about agree to disagree since this is jut gonna go back and forth from the looks of it .



Well shit you get called out for your bullshit...and all the sudden I have to agree to disagree.

How about, admit your wrong and have no idea of the current immigration problem (not only b/c your unaware of the full extent of the problem, but also b/c you're still a teenager) but most of all because your argument is full on weak.

Outside of that, reality is I have no problem with fixing the immigration problem and allow somewhat of a "get right by paying a fine or submitting paperwork, etc. But gosh darn call it what it is in its present state.


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## Centermass (Jul 9, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> Yeah you've dealt with them guess what I grew up with a lot  of people who run in gangs so Ive dealt with them too so I'd know trust me . Also what's going on with the immigration debate not new so yes I back tracked to the 19th and early 20th century.



Since this topic got you chiming in, what really gets my gander is the fact you have aspirations about getting into Law Enforcement at some point. 

And based on your posts, my guess is you will pick and choose WHICH laws you agree with and those that you don't. 

Do yourself a favor and the public as well. Maintain your stance, stick to your principles, and stay as far away from LE as possible.


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## policemedic (Jul 9, 2015)

He may actually have some firsthand expertise to contribute.

@Rodlfo99 would you like to elaborate on the nature and extent of your experience with gangs?  I'm assuming your expertise was developed through association with members of Latin/Hispanic/Mexican gangs from your posts.


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## Etype (Jul 9, 2015)

So, is anyone else surprised that a legit thread is now completely hijacked by "a recent high school graduate about to start college?"


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## JWoody (Jul 9, 2015)

Is taco Thursday a thing? Or no.


----------



## Red-Dot (Jul 9, 2015)

Rodlfo99 said:


> Well here's the thing this country was founded on immigration so under that logic then we have always had that problem . If you are saying we need to fix the immigration systemI understand but I will get to the point which is  dialog not hate my friend those comments by Trump  were hate .



Dude. This country, in a great number, was founded by "immigrants" who were actually indentured servants who PAID back their passage fare by actually working on farms, plantations etc.  In NO way can you compare those folks to what is coming across our borders now.


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## nobodythank you (Jul 9, 2015)

Etype said:


> So, is anyone else surprised that a legit thread is now completely hijacked by "a recent high school graduate about to start college?"


That apparently cannot use grammar and punctuation correctly. Reading his posts takes me back to horrible witness statements that read as the person spoke. "he wuz runin thru the hause and i axed him to staph cuz he had mah moneyz"


----------



## Grunt (Jul 9, 2015)

:troll:


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## racing_kitty (Jul 9, 2015)

The hijack has gone on long enough.  Bring it back around to the subject at hand.  Statistics, editorials, and commentary about same are fine.  First hand experience is fine.  If this keeps up, I'm locking this thread up tighter than a virgin on prom night.


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## Etype (Jul 9, 2015)

ke4gde said:


> "he wuz runin thru the hause and i axed him to staph cuz he had mah moneyz"


Fa realz!

That made me lol.


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## Salt USMC (Jul 9, 2015)

Politifact recently did a thorough fact-checking of some of the Donald's recent statements http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/jul/05/donald-trump-truth-o-meter/
The verdict?  He's almost always full of shit.







His recent comments on immigration have been rated "Pants on Fire"

Also, before you shout "Liberal bias!"  and "Soros!!", the Washington Post backs them up


----------



## racing_kitty (Jul 9, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Politifact recently did a thorough fact-checking of some of the Donald's recent statements http://www.politifact.com/truth-o-meter/article/2015/jul/05/donald-trump-truth-o-meter/
> The verdict?  He's almost always full of shit.
> 
> 
> ...



Just because they're right about Trump doesn't absolve them of their connections and blatant political leaning. Even a blind squirrel finds a nut, and Trump is being intellectually lazy in making his argument.


----------



## SpitfireV (Jul 9, 2015)

If he weren't he wouldn't be running...!


----------



## Brill (Jul 9, 2015)

C'mon @Deathy McDeath , IF the WaPo would actually fact check Hillary and her blatant (and criminal) lies, they would pale in comparison. Point being, he's trying to become a politician and therefore will say whatever and promise the same in order to make less than half a mil a year...
If Jesse James were alive, he's be a politician or a lobbyist.


----------



## Salt USMC (Jul 9, 2015)

lindy said:


> C'mon @Deathy McDeath , IF the WaPo would actually fact check Hillary and her blatant (and criminal) lies, they would pale in comparison. .


You're totally right!  But the Hillary email scandal is a few threads down


----------



## JBS (Jul 10, 2015)

Politifact should be called Dem-O-Fact.


----------



## Salt USMC (Jul 10, 2015)

Are they wrong?


----------



## JBS (Jul 11, 2015)

I think any source that's biased is inherently going to over-represent certain aspects of an issue to support their views.

As an example, if it were a Right-Leaning website, posing as though neutral, we'd see a long list of everything Trump said that was true, and then sprinkle in a couple of "shame on you's" here and there to lend credibility to the site.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 11, 2015)

Every once in a while I like to pretend that lets say Mexico was the greatest country in the world, with a thriving economy, and more opportunity than I could ever dream of. I then pretend that I live in an overcrowded dangerous shithole of a country that offers me no promise. I then pretend I don't have the resources or necessary know how to legally immigrate. The point of this fiction is to realize how fucking quick my ass would be up and walking to Mexico. Legal or not I would be where the opportunity was. I would crawl there if that presented the best chance for the survival of myself and my family. If I got caught and deported, I would be on the next truck back. 

The vast vast majority of immigrants(legal and illegal) fit much more into the situation described above than in any other type of situation. Comparing the difficulty of legally immigrating today vs the immigration of many of our previous generations is just not a fair comparison. Immigration in the 19tg and early 20th century consisted of getting on a boat, and processing when you arrived. It did not cost 15K and take years, you literally got off the boat and poof you were done. There is no one stop daily shop for immigrants today.


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## racing_kitty (Jul 11, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Comparing the difficulty of legally immigrating today vs the immigration of many of our previous generations is just not a fair comparison. Immigration in the 19tg and early 20th century consisted of getting on a boat, and processing when you arrived. It did not cost 15K and take years, you literally got off the boat and poof you were done.



But we don't have the quota system in place today that there was in the period of time you refer to.  

For those who may not know (not necessarily TLDR20, but those who simply haven't learned this or may have forgotten), there was a quota in place that was supposed to restrict the number of people that were allowed to immigrate to the US based on the population of the country that they were emigrating from.  You weren't exactly guaranteed the welcome mat when you came through Angel Island/Ellis Island.  There was the real chance that if your country of origin had exceeded its quota, you were sent back home.  

It can be argued that the quota system was put in place by Americans of Northern/Western European heritage to discriminate against those of Southern/Eastern European heritage, but Luxembourg and Lichtenstein serve as a fly in the ointment for that argument, especially considering how easy it would have been to carve out exceptions for same at that moment in history.  (Strangely, my leftist history professor wouldn't touch the quota for Asian countries, either).


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 20, 2015)

El Chapo puts a $100 million bounty on Trump. I think for that kind of money Trump would even turn himself over to them.


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## AWP (Jul 20, 2015)

I shouldn't agree with a narcoterrorist.
I shouldn't agree with a narcoterrorist.
I shouldn't agree wi....


----------



## Florida173 (Jul 21, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Every once in a while I like to pretend that lets say Mexico was the greatest country in the world, with a thriving economy, and more opportunity than I could ever dream of. I then pretend that I live in an overcrowded dangerous shithole of a country that offers me no promise. I then pretend I don't have the resources or necessary know how to legally immigrate. The point of this fiction is to realize how fucking quick my ass would be up and walking to Mexico. Legal or not I would be where the opportunity was. I would crawl there if that presented the best chance for the survival of myself and my family. If I got caught and deported, I would be on the next truck back.
> 
> The vast vast majority of immigrants(legal and illegal) fit much more into the situation described above than in any other type of situation. Comparing the difficulty of legally immigrating today vs the immigration of many of our previous generations is just not a fair comparison. Immigration in the 19tg and early 20th century consisted of getting on a boat, and processing when you arrived. It did not cost 15K and take years, you literally got off the boat and poof you were done. There is no one stop daily shop for immigrants today.



So is your issue with the current immigration process, or is it that our borders aren't open enough to circumvent the immigration process?


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## TLDR20 (Jul 21, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> So is your issue with the current immigration process, or is it that our borders aren't open enough to circumvent the immigration process?



I didn't comment on the current immigration process other than to say I think it takes too long, and is too expensive. As to an open border, I don't know where you got that.

I think that we should have both a better immigration policy, and a better controlled border. I am also saying that acting like everyone who attempts to better their lives through immigrating illegally into the U.S. Is some kind of criminal is fucking stupid. I think that illegal immigration is a problem, but I cannot fault those who do it.

 Their governments failed them. Our government is failing us, but those immigrants are in it for survival.


----------



## CDG (Jul 21, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> I am also saying that acting like everyone who attempts to better their lives through immigrating illegally into the U.S. Is some kind of criminal is fucking stupid. I think that illegal immigration is a problem, but I cannot fault those who do it.
> 
> Their governments failed them. Our government is failing us, but those immigrants are in it for survival.



Intentions be damned, breaking the law does make them criminal, so holding that idea isn't "fucking stupid".  I think acting like it's ok for people to stream across the border without regard to the law of the country they are entering, simply because the grass is greener, is fucking stupid.  The majority may come from countries where making it to the US means surviving, but that's not our problem.  It is not the United States's responsibility to save everyone else in the world who lives somewhere shitty.  We are very fortunate to live where we do, others are not.  That's life.  It sucks, and it's harsh, but it is what it is.  How would you respond to a US citizen who felt another country offered a better life, broke that country's immigration law to get in, and was caught and punished?


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## TLDR20 (Jul 21, 2015)

CDG said:


> .  How would you respond to a US citizen who felt another country offered a better life, broke that country's immigration law to get in, and was caught and punished?



I already said my piece on that. If I thought there was a place that offered me and my family a better life I would go. If it wasn't legal and the risk to reward ratio was right I would certainly try. If I could live better as an undocumented immigrant in one place than my home I would take illegal immigrant in a second.  Survival is the most important thing, and it may sound harsh, but those people are doing what they need to to survive. 

I think a person who is the byproduct of certain policy would more properly be termed refugees, they certainly are economically, and some are certainly fleeing from violence. But we call them illegal immigrants and the law is being broken, I think we should change the laws. To what, I don't know, I'm not an expert on border policy, or international relations.


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## AWP (Jul 21, 2015)

If they can somehow make it into this country and live productive lives, so be it. If they are caught at any point in the process, big boy rules apply and I don't think they have a leg to stand on when given a ticket back to their "HOR." They broke the law and we shouldn't give them a pass because life at home is bad. "Pay your money and take your chances."


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 21, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> If they can somehow make it into this country and live productive lives, so be it. If they are caught at any point in the process, big boy rules apply and I don't think they have a leg to stand on when given a ticket back to their "HOR." They broke the law and we shouldn't give them a pass because life at home is bad. "Pay your money and take your chances."



I agree here. I think once caught they can be deported no problem. I'm not calling for amnesty or anything. I am just pointing out generalizing these people for political gain is not something that should be done. Further attacking these immigrants as Trump did brings attention to the people, rather than the policy problem.


----------



## CDG (Jul 22, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> I already said my piece on that. If I thought there was a place that offered me and my family a better life I would go. If it wasn't legal and the risk to reward ratio was right I would certainly try. If I could live better as an undocumented immigrant in one place than my home I would take illegal immigrant in a second.  Survival is the most important thing, and it may sound harsh, but those people are doing what they need to to survive.
> 
> I think a person who is the byproduct of certain policy would more properly be termed refugees, they certainly are economically, and some are certainly fleeing from violence. But we call them illegal immigrants and the law is being broken, I think we should change the laws. To what, I don't know, I'm not an expert on border policy, or international relations.



I agree that they are doing what they need to do to survive.  However, this does not absolve them of the fact they knowingly commit a crime by not following the legal immigration process.  I further agree that we need to change the process.  It's prohibitively long, expensive, and bureaucratic.  But until we do change that process, or put in some sort of interim process for the refugee immigrant, those who are here illegally are still criminals.  IMHO, the fixing of the process starts with the swift and harsh crackdown on those who are here illegally and commit crimes, especially violent ones.  The message needs to be sent that if you are here for the wrong reasons, you will be dealt with harshly.  I think that for those who are here illegally and commit violent crimes, they should not be afforded access to the same level of legal process as citizens.  Start executing the rapists and murderers and a strong message is sent. The next step is to put some sort of "work for citizenship" program in place for those coming from countries where getting a work visa is a much less viable option than sneaking across the border and then trying to pick up jobs by hanging out in a Home Depot parking lot.


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## SpitfireV (Jul 22, 2015)

No legal process? Are you mad?


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## policemedic (Jul 22, 2015)

SpitfireV said:


> No legal process? Are you mad?



I understood his meaning as a lesser level of due process for people who aren't supposed to be in the country at all, not an absence of legal process. 

Given the way some states treat illegals e.g. California, it's an interesting point of discussion.


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## policemedic (Jul 22, 2015)

Speaking of California, they are part of the policy issue that @TLDR20 highlights.


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## Totentanz (Jul 22, 2015)

policemedic said:


> I understood his meaning as a lesser level of due process for people who aren't supposed to be in the country at all, not an absence of legal process.
> 
> Given the way some states treat illegals e.g. California, it's an interesting point of discussion.



Agreed.  My own viewpoints aside, I read his post to mean "reduced", not "nonexistent".


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## CDG (Jul 22, 2015)

SpitfireV said:


> No legal process? Are you mad?



Not what I said.  I said, specifically, "should not be afforded access to the *same level *of legal process". I believe this is perfectly reasonable for illegal immigrants who commit violent crimes.


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## Ranger Psych (Jul 22, 2015)

SpitfireV said:


> No legal process? Are you mad?




If you're already here illegally, and commit another crime? It should be a compounding effect applied towards setencing. Possibly involving trebuchets to fling you towards your country of origin from the borders.


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## AWP (Jul 22, 2015)

The legal process for those illegally in our country should look like a mass cal triage. I also question if caught, while their case is reviewed, should they be allowed to leave US custody? "They're on to me, time to move."


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## pardus (Sep 18, 2015)

There is already a reduced level of rights for immigrants. Pres Bush (W) removed the right of Habeas Corpus for immigrants. (full disclosure, I'm not sure if that was revoked later on).
The immigration system in this country is fucked, and the problem lies fairly and squarely at the feet of generations of politicians. An overhaul of the system is badly and urgently needed.
Just like a COIN situation, the political situation needs to be addressed after the security situation is stabilized. That means securing the border first. I have no problem with the concept of relaxed/modified process of legalizing the illegals, providing it was done correctly. What is correct? That is a question that could take years to answer, but I will bet cash money, it is decided in weeks/months when people with an agenda tackle it, and we "will have to vote it in to see what it says".
My immediate thoughts are registration, work permit, taxation.


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## AWP (Sep 19, 2015)

JWoody said:


> Is taco Thursday a thing? Or no.



No. Tuesday. You're thinking of Man Love which is the opposite of any taco.


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## Brill (Sep 19, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> No. Tuesday. You're thinking of Man Love which is the opposite of any taco.



Tell that to Cait.


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## JBS (Sep 20, 2015)

Best post of the thread!

Monty Pythonesque.


Ranger Psych said:


> If you're already here illegally, and commit another crime? It should be a compounding effect applied towards setencing. Possibly involving trebuchets to fling you towards your country of origin from the borders.


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