# Active shooter - Navy Reserve Center in Chattanooga Tennessee



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 16, 2015)

Not many details yet...none really.  Hope all here are unaffected personally -

'Active shooter incident' reported at Tenn. naval center   - CNN.com

** UPDATE **
Chattanooga local live coverage

http://www.wrcbtv.com/category...93/live-video-stream

Photo from recruiting office - more reports on the news feed are saying 4 Marines shot, plus one officer.

Fuck


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## Florida173 (Jul 16, 2015)

Navy Reserve center, not yard.  The Navy yard is over in the NCR


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## DA SWO (Jul 16, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Not many details yet...none really.  Hope all here are unaffected personally -
> 
> 'Active shooter incident' reported at Tenn. naval center   - CNN.com
> 
> ...


Guess the no-guns inside the building sign worked.

Quick recoveries for the good guys,


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## Salt USMC (Jul 16, 2015)

Four Marines at the NOSC are reported dead.  Shooter is dead.  One officer wounded.

Son of a bitch.


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## Rapid (Jul 16, 2015)

_City police said they were investigating the two incidents as an "act of domestic terrorism"._

Shit.

RIP, Marines.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 16, 2015)

Rest In Peace Marines. 
Semper Fi


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 16, 2015)

Rapid said:


> _City police said they were investigating the two incidents as an "act of domestic terrorism"._
> 
> Shit.
> 
> RIP, Marines.



shooting suspect was identified as Muhammad Youssef Abdulazeez.

Chattanooga shooting: Five dead in attacks at Tennessee military facilities


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## Grunt (Jul 16, 2015)

Rest In Peace, my Brothers!


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## racing_kitty (Jul 16, 2015)

May the deceased Marines rest in peace.  

It fills my heart with unbridled joy to hear that the shooter has been rendered permanently metabolically deficient.


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## BloodStripe (Jul 16, 2015)

Blue skies, Devil Dogs.


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## Marine0311 (Jul 16, 2015)

RIP Marines.

I am so sad and angry.


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## CDG (Jul 16, 2015)

RIP Marines.


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## CQB (Jul 16, 2015)

From @th3j5t3r:  It looks like Daesh tweeted as the shooter started, before the media picked up the story.


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## Centermass (Jul 16, 2015)




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## DarthMando (Jul 16, 2015)

RIP Marines!

This Canadian has you in his thoughts!


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## RackMaster (Jul 16, 2015)

RIP.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 16, 2015)

Thank you @Centermass - I was searching for something exactly like that.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 16, 2015)

In case you want a quick down-and-dirty:
http://www.havokjournal.com/nation/...orist-attack-six-things-you-need-to-know-now/


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## Salt USMC (Jul 16, 2015)

CQB said:


> From @th3j5t3r:  It looks like Daesh tweeted as the shooter started, before the media picked up the story.


That was actually posted 2 hours after the incident.  The time stamp showing "10:34" showed up because the person looking at it was on Pacific Time.


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## TheSiatonist (Jul 16, 2015)

RIP, Marines.


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## Cabbage Head (Jul 16, 2015)

RIP.  Pissed beyond belief.  Happy that my Brothers in Blue ended it with no need for lengthy trials.


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## AKkeith (Jul 17, 2015)

Rest in Peace to our brothers.


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## policemedic (Jul 17, 2015)

It's absolutely criminal that those Marines were unarmed.  If the Commandant of the Marine Corps, GEN Odierno, and the other service chiefs don't stand up like men and change policy they should all resign in disgrace because they've failed in their duty to their Marines, Soldiers, Sailors, and Airmen.  

I can hear the warbling now.  Liability! Risk! Not competent! Jurisdiction! PT belts and tattoos!  

Fuck off.  Institute a sound policy authorizing concealed carry pursuant to state laws, authorize the arming under DoD authority of certain personnel on a continuous basis, and develop a solid pistol training program across all the services (it's about fucking time, isn't it?!).  

Next time--and there will be a next time, make no mistake--I want the headlines to read, TERRORIST ATTACKS RECRUITING STATION; INSTANTLY SHOT DEAD BY ARMED FORCES PERSONNEL.


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## x SF med (Jul 17, 2015)

Semper Fi, Marines, your tour is over, Rest Easy, we have the watch.


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## Totentanz (Jul 17, 2015)

RIP Marines.


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## Salt USMC (Jul 17, 2015)

Saepius Exertus
Semper Fidelis
Frater Infinitas


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## Viper1 (Jul 17, 2015)

Rest in Peace Marines


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## poison (Jul 17, 2015)

*Chattanooga shootings: FBI sees no terrorism link*

*Chattanooga shootings: FBI sees no terrorism link - BBC News*

*Well, in that case, it's all good...*


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 17, 2015)

Rest In God's Own Peace, Marines.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 17, 2015)

Personal stories on the 4 Marines, some tough reading.  Turns out my wife's co-worker was good friends with the young man from Wisconsin.

LINK


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## Dame (Jul 17, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Personal stories on the 4 Marines, some tough reading.  Turns out my wife's co-worker was good friends with the young man from Wisconsin.



OK, don't do that. Gut punch.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 17, 2015)

I understand the hate from Deathy and the comments to my inbox.

I'm not over what happened yesterday - today people are talking about Bruce Jenner already and this is a distant memory to those not personally affected.

I'm feeling fucking hate still. God please  bless these men.


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## x SF med (Jul 18, 2015)

poison said:


> *Chattanooga shootings: FBI sees no terrorism link*
> 
> *Chattanooga shootings: FBI sees no terrorism link - BBC News*
> 
> *Well, in that case, it's all good...*


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## Marauder06 (Jul 18, 2015)

We lost four Marine brothers in Chattanooga.  Although it hasn't been confirmed, it appears that the attack was terrorism inspired by ISIS.

Assume that it was.  Do the Marines who were killed/wounded in that attack rate the PH? Why or why not?


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## TLDR20 (Jul 18, 2015)

If we are in a war with terrorism(and that is a broad term) these guys died at the hands of the enemy. I would say yes.


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## Dame (Jul 18, 2015)

Petty Officer Randall Smith. Rest in peace.


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## DA SWO (Jul 18, 2015)

Yes, no different than 9-11, Ft Hood, AR Recruiting Center, etc.


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## Il Duce (Jul 18, 2015)

In the Army Regulation (600-8-22) in the section on the Purple Heart (2-8) it specifies circumstances for awarding the PH.  One of them is 'in action against an enemy of the US' and another is as a result of a terrorist attack as recognized by the SECARMY.  I would think the USMC is very similar and as long as the SECNAVY recognizes the attack as terrorist in nature and/or the attacker as an enemy of the US they should be eligible for the award.  My understanding is the hold-up in the Hassan attack at Ft. Hood was the failure to recognize it as terrorism, instead classifying it as an insider attack. 

So, I think the Marines killed in the attack and those wounded should receive a Purple Heart.


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## racing_kitty (Jul 18, 2015)

Yes, I believe they do rate the PH.  Whether you look at it as "just" terrorism, or from the viewpoint of the shooter acting as an individual combatant allied with a newly established (as compared to other nations) enemy state, it would appear that the requirements have been met to receive the medal.

Now, whether TPTB see it that way is another story.


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## Viper1 (Jul 18, 2015)

The purple heart case surrounding the Fort Hood shooting set a precedent for awarding the PH due to domestic terrorism, as did the September 11, 2001 attacks.  The Purple Heart was awarded to victims of the USS Cole attack, as well as to victims of the embassy bombings in Kenya and Tanzania.  There is a Slate article calling this a "rational act of war."  The same argument can be made for the Fort Hood attacks.  

Thus, given precedent and our state of war against known terrorist groups--whether we acknowledge the war or not--the Purple Heart is appropriate.


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## Brill (Jul 18, 2015)

Yes, they should get it however *there is no way in hell the USG will recognize what happened as an act of terror.*  Hell, FBI is still looking at this as a criminal matter! 

"*Some of the weapons were purchased legally and some may not have been.* We will examine that," FBI Special Agent in Charge Ed Reinhold said, speaking at a news conference in Chattanooga hours after McCaul gave his briefing."

Putting our collective head in the sand won't make the boogey man man go away (nor will limited air strikes).  Total war against the IS is the only thing they will understand.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 18, 2015)

It would seem to me, that the Ft. Hood casualties, and awards are now the standard, as @ Viper1  pointed out above; #6.  This will happen again to unarmed active duty members of our military. I would like to see active duty military members, with a armed combat MOS, cleared to CCW; hell make it open carry for that matter. LEO's have that ability in many states, our military should have the same recognition. I can not help but believe, that this will happen again.


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## policemedic (Jul 19, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> It would seem to me, that the Ft. Hood casualties, and awards are now the standard, as @ Viper1  pointed out above; #6.  This will happen again to unarmed active duty members of our military. I would like to see active duty military members, with a armed combat MOS, cleared to CCW; hell make it open carry for that matter. LEO's have that ability in many states, our military should have the same recognition. I can not help but believe, that this will happen again.



LE has that ability throughout the CONUS and in American possessions e.g. the U.S. Virgin Islands and Guam.  There is no reason qualified military personnel shouldn't have the same ability.


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## AWP (Jul 19, 2015)

I'll bet that CBT will be a bitch. The DoD assume liability for armed members in public? I don't like to say "never" but some half-measure which takes years to enact and after more fatal incidents? I can see that as the "solution." We've also touched upon the military's dreadful approach to pistol usage. I think arming servicemembers will take years and have some rather stupid, stupid rules in place that minimize the effectiveness of any changes.

There's the right thing and then there's what we do...


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## Brill (Jul 19, 2015)

Arming USMIL in CONUS would admit that guns are the correct answer to countering violence and this would overturn the anti-gun apple cart.

I agree with @Freefalling ; the new rules would be silly. Glow belts while armed?


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## Gypsy (Jul 19, 2015)

Freaking disgusting.  I'm glad to see some states allowing Military personnel to carry.

RIP.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 21, 2015)

So now it is being reported (Navy Times)  that a Navy Lt. Cmdr and one of the Marines was armed (with personal firearms) and did shoot back.  One of the Marines had a 9mm, it is not mentioned what the Naval officer was carrying. 

LINK

_A report was distributed among senior Navy leaders during the shooting's aftermath saying Lt. Cmdr. Timothy White, the support center's commanding officer, used his personal firearm to engage Abdulazeez, Navy Times has confirmed with four separate sources. A Navy official also confirmed Monday's Washington Post report indicating one of the slain Marines may have been carrying a 9mm Glock and possibly returned fire on the gunman._

The article mentions that Lt. Cmdr. White has not returned phone calls asking for interviews - shocking.

Question 1:  Assuming that it was his own personal weapon, is he fucked (career wise at least)?

Question 2:  If the Lt. Cmdr. and the Marine had been successful in stopping the shooter, (and the Marine had survived) - public opinion would be strongly 'pro', but I have to think that Uncle Sam would not be quite so pleased (at least internally)


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## AWP (Jul 21, 2015)

A personally owned firearm in uniform? Is that legal?


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## policemedic (Jul 21, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> A personally owned firearm in uniform? Is that legal?


 
Bigger issue: Gun inside a federal facility without legal authority (i.e. military orders).


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## Viper1 (Jul 21, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> A personally owned firearm in uniform? Is that legal?



Nope.


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## AWP (Jul 21, 2015)

What a hell of a position to be in. If those reports are true this will be an interesting litmus test for the idea of carrying concealed while in uniform.


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## BloodStripe (Jul 22, 2015)

Here comes the green weenie.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 22, 2015)

Plot twist:  two of the service members on the scene returned fire... with privately owned weapons.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 22, 2015)

First in line to contribute to the Lt. Cmdr's defense fund - 

Oh the backroom meetings that must be going on right now in regards to how to spin this ....


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## AWP (Jul 22, 2015)

Admin note: I merged two threads so if something seems out of place, you have half the battle.


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## DA SWO (Jul 22, 2015)

He won't get promoted, and will lose his command soon.
Alive and unemployed is better than dead and remembered.


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## Viper1 (Jul 22, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> What a hell of a position to be in. If those reports are true this will be an interesting litmus test for the idea of carrying concealed while in uniform.



Anyone who carries concealed when they are not supposed (e.g. the bank) is, or at least should be, aware they will will have to explain themselves on the 1% chance things turn violent.  It turns out this time it was for real.

I'm confident USG or law enforcement will not pursue legal punishment, however administrative retirement might be in the cards.  Unfortunate indeed.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 22, 2015)

I'm seeing new info coming out about the 4 Marines engaging the shoot and trying to get him away from larger crowds of people - chasing him to a fenced in area where the Lt. Cmdr and one of the Marines shot at him - and where the 4 Marines were killed.  Has anyone else heard this?  I'm hesitant to provide the link as it is tied to some ultra conservative blog type site that I've not heard of and don't want to link the forum to it. 

ETA - I found the same story on Boston Globe and feel better about posting link:

LINK TO BOSTON GLOBE STORY

Here is a quote from the article:

_Some of the five servicemen who were fatally wounded effectively sacrificed themselves during the assault on Thursday, diverting the gunman away from a larger group of potential victims, according to a law enforcement official briefed on the investigation into the killings…

Maj. Gen. Paul W. Brier of the Marines said: “Our Marines reacted the way you would expect, rapidly going room to room, getting people to safety. After they had gotten to safety, some willingly ran back into the fight. All of us can be extremely proud of what our Marines did that day.”

Mr. Abdulazeez went out through the back of the building, Mr. Reinhold said, and into the fenced-in motor pool area, where “two service members attempted to provide cover and assist the military personnel attempting to get over the fence.”

It was there, he said, that four of the five victims were killed and that the police caught up to the gunman. In the shootout that followed, an officer was wounded, and Mr. Abdulazeez was killed.

Two weapons belonging to servicemen were found at the scene, according to the FBI, and “at least” one of them had been discharged._


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## policemedic (Jul 22, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> Anyone who carries concealed when they are not supposed (e.g. the bank) is, or at least should be, aware they will will have to explain themselves on the 1% chance things turn violent.  It turns out this time it was for real.
> 
> I'm confident USG or law enforcement will not pursue legal punishment, however administrative retirement might be in the cards.  Unfortunate indeed.



You can't carry in a bank in your neck of the woods?  That blows.

The LCDR didn't break any state laws (at least, he wouldn't have in PA, and I believe TN is very similar), so no worries there.  Now, whether his chain-of-command and/or the USAO (at the direction of AG Lynch) choose to prosecute on the federal level is a different story.  But prosecutorial discretion exists, and this would be a very unpopular case with a low chance of a jury conviction.  

I hope they leave the man in peace.  I respect him (and the Marine who was armed) for getting into the fight.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 22, 2015)

We had a lot of LEO's carry while in the Reserves, helps when the Commander and 1SGT are also LEO.

State and Fed will leave him alone,  military side might not...administratively, but you never know.


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## Viper1 (Jul 22, 2015)

policemedic said:


> You can't carry in a bank in your neck of the woods?  That blows.



Every Bank in my neck of Pineland has prohibition #3 on all their entrances. 
Source: NC DOJ


> 7. Even with a permit, you may not carry a concealed handgun in the following areas:
> 
> Any law enforcement or correctional facility;
> Any space occupied by State or federal employees;
> ...


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## policemedic (Jul 23, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> Every Bank in my neck of Pineland has prohibition #3 on all their entrances.
> Source: NC DOJ



How about that.  The only Pineland establishments I remember displaying those types of warnings were ABC stores.  There probably were more, and I just didn't see them because I wasn't looking (or was out of fucks to give, one or the other).

For a very brief period, some banks in Philadelphia used a sally port entrance controlled by a magnetometer.  If you entered with a gun or something else that tripped the metal alarm, you actually got locked in the sally port until someone let you out.  _Highly_ illegal, that.  Didn't last long, as you can imagine.
/hijack over


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## TLDR20 (Jul 23, 2015)

I don't think concealed carry matters at all. I think that there are way fucking more important issues facing veterans and active duty Sm's than the lack of concealed carry. Just a few:

1. 22 SM's/veterans a day commit suicide. Unfuckingacceptable.

2. The way narcotics are given out like candy, creating dependency amongst our force.

3. The risk averse culture of our service in general.

4. How few veterans/SM's utilize their veteran educational benefits.


5. The clusterfuck that is the F-35.


I could go on and on with issue after issue that are more important.

This to me seems like another thing vets,SMs are getting their fucking panties in a bunch about. The fact that one of the SM's was blatantly violating the law, and made little difference should if anything serve as a reminder that there are a shitload of guys who do not need more room to fuck up in the service, and they certainly do not need to be carrying firearms amongst an anxious and potentially nervous public.

I know what you are saying, "well they could have to carry a weapon in combat" well allow me to call bullshit on that one. While some SM's do indeed carry weapons in combat, a huge portion doesn't, and that huge portion is just as likely to become a recruiter as is the infantryman(in reality though I doubt that, the non Combat arms guys prolly equal the combat arms soldiers). Some submariner at a station has no business carrying a pistol in uniform amongst our extremely low threat civilian populace.

Now I know I will get a ton of hates for this, but take out the emotion. Very little would really have helped these guys, but we now have people calling for random uniformed SM's to be armed and walking around our cities? A lot of these people are the same ones probably dreaming over Jade Helm. Why are we willing to accept soldiers walking around in uniform with weapons in our cities, towns and public places?  I am actually surprised I haven't seen some blogger talking about how his is a ploy to get armed troops amongst us.

But that is something that feels wrong to me. I'm no conspiracy theorist, I promise you that. But I think arming soldiers amongst our population may not be the most constitutionally acceptable thing.

I think when the "voices" we have as SM's and veterans are on every week or so running their mouths about issues they aren't experts on it degrades when we bitch about actual issues, like the ones above.


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## Brill (Jul 23, 2015)

@TLDR20 , you're missing the real message: there is lack of trust among the American people that SOMEONE gives a damn about them so each group is trying to lobby for their "survival". Black, Whites, Gays, Straights, Men, Women, Haves, Have-nots, etc.

This country needs a leader who gives hope.


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## BloodStripe (Jul 23, 2015)

But the poster said hope and change!


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## TLDR20 (Jul 23, 2015)

lindy said:


> @TLDR20 , you're missing the real message: there is lack of trust among the American people that SOMEONE gives a damn about them so each group is trying to lobby for their "survival". Black, Whites, Gays, Straights, Men, Women, Haves, Have-nots, etc.
> 
> This country needs a leader who gives hope.



I think the point is that people don't understand the real threats. Service members are way more likely to be killed driving high on prescription narcotics than they are to be shot by some jihadi. They are even more likely to just eat those pills till they kill themselves. Nobody gives two fucks about that, but in some strange twist, people think this is some kind of "moment" for gun rights or restrictions, when in reality, it is a moment when we as SM's and veterans have the empathy of the public and a voice to say things other than"these colors don't run" and "we should be ashamed to tell people not to waear uniforms off base,"while certain services and units already prohibit it. It is such a farce it cracks me up.


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## AWP (Jul 23, 2015)

Arming SM's at their place of work (a State or Federal facility) is a good idea until you realize the lack of pistol training, mindset, and tactics enjoyed by just about everyone in uniform. Now you have some serious liability issues. Defending oneself wouldn't fall under Posse Comitatus or anything, so armed troops on US soil shouldn't cause heartburn...but it will because people are ignorant.

I have seen these "patriots" arming themselves and staying outside of recruiting offices. Please, go home, you are making this mess even worse. Your point is made, Facebook approves, memes generated, now go home and let the adults talk.

The "issue" is that we have a lot of issues at stake right now. I agree with TLDR on that much but disagree with not arming them. They SHOULD be armed, but I'm a pragmatic pessimist and believe they won't be and if they are armed it will be some half-assed, feel good solution. Do it right or don't do it at all and too many, if not most, DoD program are half-assed, feel good measures. We'll jock up and send battalions into the Sangin or invade a country, but we won't tackle the VA, medical issues, or the acquisition process (I'm looking at the F-35, LCS, and Ford-class carriers)? We're failing ourselves and supporting some of the best warfighters on the planet with self-absorbed assclowns.

And risk adverse or toxic leadership? There's right and then what we'll do. That topic will never find a solution. The system is run by people and people will protect themselves. It will take something 10x more massive than 9/11 and the Iraq debacle before we learn and change.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 24, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I have seen these "patriots" arming themselves and staying outside of recruiting offices. Please, go home, you are making this mess even worse. Your point is made, Facebook approves, memes generated, now go home and let the adults talk.



...and...that should be the end of that.

_Christopher Reed told police he was standing in front of the military recruiting station with his AR-15 rifle to guard military personal, when a man asked to look at his gun.  *Reed said he attempted to clear the ammunition from the gun, and accidentally fired it into the pavement.*_

http://wate.com/2015/07/23/arm...y-recruiting-center/


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## AWP (Jul 24, 2015)

Fortunately, The Poor Fellow-Soldiers of Christ and of the Temple of Solomon are on the scene.







Veterans stand guard at recruiting office



> Dressed in full medieval knight regalia - including a 10-pound steel helmet - Frye, of Jeffersonville, stood Thursday in front of the Peach Tree building on Broadway where a Marines Recruiting Office is located.
> He came armed with a bow and arrow - both of which he made himself - *because he doesn't have a permit to carry a gun.*
> All three have military experience. *Frye is a Marine veteran*



So many jokes, so little time.


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## Mac_NZ (Jul 24, 2015)

The saddest thing I see is that the minute someone loses their life from a tragedy like this the pro gun and anti gun PR machine ramps up and it becomes all about their agenda.  Watching fox news and every other thing that comes up on my Farcebook news feed and the lip service paid to the dead Marines and then the vomit of how none of this would have happened if only (insert guns are banned or guns are carried) is sickitating.


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## Brill (Jul 24, 2015)

Why is the "knight" holding the Georgian flag?


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## Rapid (Jul 25, 2015)

Chattanooga shooting: Pentagon discourages civilian guards - BBC News

"Abdulazeez was shot and killed by police during the attack. *His motive was unclear.*"

Have you noticed this is the latest way these media morons try to downplay any connection with Islam? Oh no, better not offend the sacred cow unless we find a signed confession saying he was religiously motivated.

I think his motives were pretty fucking clear. Just because they haven't found any ties with terrorist organisations, doesn't mean that he wasn't inspired to act on their behalf. If anything, lone wolves are among some of the most troublesome terrorist threats. But they're not going to call it out for what it is?

What bothers me is that this isn't an isolated incident. I read a number of news sources from various countries, and I've noticed that in past year (or two), authorities and/or the media have systematically tried to distance the Islam connection whenever possible in the case of small scale attacks. Usually they try to play the 'mentally ill' card instead. Yes, well, we all know what the diagnosis is.

Meanwhile, the media has no issues INSTANTLY jumping the gun and reporting any harmful incident against a minority as a 'hate crime' (when it often turns out not to be) or tries to at least suggest it.


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## RackMaster (Jul 25, 2015)

@Rapid I completely agree.   The lefties here always point to mental illness.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 1, 2015)

I set a news alert up for the Lt. Cmdr's name - very interested to see how this plays out for him officially - 

http://www.breitbart.com/big-g...his-personal-weapon/

_Lieutenant Commander Tim White has now confirmed that he opened fire on gunman Mohammad Abdulazeez during the July 16 attack on Marines and Sailors in Chattanooga.

The Times Free Press lists White as the commanding officer at the Navy Operational Support Center. And they report that he opened fire on Abdulazeez while the attack was underway, but there is no confirmation on whether any of his rounds found their target.

Stripes reports that White’s wife, Franicia White, said she was proud of her husband for fighting back. Franicia said, “He values human life enough to protect his sailors and others. I am honored to be his wife and stand by him 100 percent.”

The Navy Times reports that FBI Special Agent in Charge Ed Reinhold held a press conference in which he did not call White by name, but said, “A service member inside the building saw Abdulazeez approaching and fired at him.”

An unnamed Marine allegedly opened fire on Abdulazeez with a “sidearm” as well, but there is no confirmation on whether he found his target either.

On July 29, a petition was launched asking President Obama to honor those who fought back during the Chattanooga attacks._


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## JBS (Aug 1, 2015)

I don't know.

I really don't see what the big deal is with arming service veterans- obviously with proper controls and training.

It's not like this is something new.   Military guards carry firearms all over the country every day- tens of thousands of armed service-members- for decades, almost completely without incident.  

That said, I do agree with everything that @TLDR20 had to say about the "real threats".   I just finished dealing with a servicemember with PTSD and other issues, who made an attempt to kill himself.   It's a real problem, and he's right about too little attention being given to it.


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## DA SWO (Aug 1, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I set a news alert up for the Lt. Cmdr's name - very interested to see how this plays out for him officially -
> 
> http://www.breitbart.com/big-g...his-personal-weapon/
> 
> ...


Wish they added the link to the petition, hopefully google can make it happen.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 1, 2015)

Allen West reporting that the Navy is charging the Lt. Commander.   He posted this today and I have yet to find any additional mainstream sources (CNN, Networks, Fox) although I'd expect Fox to jump on this pretty quick.

What’s happening to this heroic Navy officer from the Chattanooga shooting will make your blood BOIL - Allen B. West - AllenBWest.com


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## TLDR20 (Aug 1, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Allen West reporting that the Navy is charging the Lt. Commander.   He posted this today and I have yet to find any additional mainstream sources (CNN, Networks, Fox) although I'd expect Fox to jump on this pretty quick.
> 
> What’s happening to this heroic Navy officer from the Chattanooga shooting will make your blood BOIL - Allen B. West - AllenBWest.com



He broke the law! He should be punished. The fact that there was a shooting doesn't absolve him of being guilty of flat out ignoring regulations. You don't get to be on your OFP.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 1, 2015)

@TLDR20 - agreed, he did break the law.  And the military being the last bastion of "them be the rulez", I am not surprised he was charged.

BUT...do you think he would have been charged if the outcome had been different and the Lt. Cmdr was the one to take down the shooter?

And taking this scenario to the extreme, had Lt. Cmdr White killed the bad guy before the Marines and sailor were killed, would White still be facing charges?  The emotional side of me says "no way" the public pressure would have been too great, but the more logical Marine in me says "yep", and if the public does not like it, change the laws.  In the end I believe that he would have been pardoned or exonerated in some way though.


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## Brill (Aug 2, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> He broke the law! He should be punished.



policy = principles
regulations = rules


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## DA SWO (Aug 2, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> He broke the law! He should be punished. The fact that there was a shooting doesn't absolve him of being guilty of flat out ignoring regulations. You don't get to be on your OFP.


He violated policy.
Lots of service men and women violate policy, sometimes to take care of those they supervise.  
That's the moral dilemma of being a supervisor, and why (when it was hard) Officers and NCO's get more money than those they supervise.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 2, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> He violated policy.
> Lots of service men and women violate policy, sometimes to take care of those they supervise.
> That's the moral dilemma of being a supervisor, and why (when it was hard) Officers and NCO's get more money than those they supervise.



So disobeying a lawful order is breaking policy? Sweet. I guess we can all do whatever the fuck we want.


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## Viper1 (Aug 2, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> He violated policy.
> Lots of service men and women violate policy, sometimes to take care of those they supervise.
> That's the moral dilemma of being a supervisor, and why (when it was hard) Officers and NCO's get more money than those they supervise.



As I said earlier...a knowing decision we all know we have to explain in the chance we are caught overtly breaking the rule.  He took a chance carrying when it was against the rules.  He'll have his chance to explain in court.


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## AWP (Aug 2, 2015)

"Judged by twelve than carried by six" is not a catchy bumper sticker...


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## DA SWO (Aug 3, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> So disobeying a lawful order is breaking policy? Sweet. I guess we can all do whatever the fuck we want.


Happens every day, one of the reasons the UCMJ allows for a tiered trial/punishment system.  LOA/LOC/Art 15/ Captain's Mast are all lesser form of punishment that can be administered in lieu of a CM.

Formal chage sheet is over kill and (IMO) over reaching.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 3, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Happens every day, one of the reasons the UCMJ allows for a tiered trial/punishment system.  LOA/LOC/Art 15/ Captain's Mast are all lesser form of punishment that can be administered in lieu of a CM.
> 
> Formal chage sheet is over kill and (IMO) over reaching.



After the Fort Hood shooting MP's set out checkpoints and caught a ton of guys bringing concealed weapons onto Bragg. Those guys that had weapons caught the Green weenie the same as this guys should.


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## racing_kitty (Aug 3, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> After the Fort Hood shooting MP's set out checkpoints and caught a ton of guys bringing concealed weapons onto Bragg. Those guys that had weapons caught the Green weenie the same as this guys should.



Did the Green Weenie consist of a field grade Article 15 and all of the possibilities that come with same?  Or were they court martialed, and paraded around by the local media?  I think you're overlooking the point DaSWO was trying to make.  Prosecutorial overreach is a real issue these days.  Or are you perfectly accepting of maxing out everyone who steps out of line every single time, no matter the offense? 

The guy took his chances, and now he's going to have to pay the house since he's rolled snake eyes.  I'm not arguing that fact.  I'd have to see the overall big picture with regards to his disciplinary history, leadership skills, etc. before I get on board with what appears to me to be your desire to fuck him so hard that his grandchildren have rape flashbacks.


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## Grunt (Aug 3, 2015)

If he has to pay the piper for his violations...that is fine. I just don't want him to become the "issue" and we (not necessarily us here) forget why he was shooting. 

I don't want him to become the focus and the world forget the bad guy who caused this.


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## Salt USMC (Aug 5, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Allen West reporting that the Navy is charging the Lt. Commander.   He posted this today and I have yet to find any additional mainstream sources (CNN, Networks, Fox) although I'd expect Fox to jump on this pretty quick.
> 
> What’s happening to this heroic Navy officer from the Chattanooga shooting will make your blood BOIL - Allen B. West - AllenBWest.com


Surprise, surprise.  Allen West is full of shit once again!

*"(Prosecution) is not in the works. We have no plans to press charges,"*
Is a Navy officer who shot at the Chattanooga shooter facing charges?


> The story about what’s happening to a Navy officer "will make your blood boil," professes a Aug. 1 headline on the blog of former Rep. Allen West, R-Fla., a retired Army lieutenant colonel
> 
> It stems from the July 16, 2015, shooting in Chattanooga, in which a gunman, Muhammad Abdulazeez, began firing at two military facilities, killing four Marines and a Navy sailor. During the onslaught, the commanding officer at the Navy Operational Support Center in Chattanooga used his personal firearm to fire back at Abdulazeez, according to Navy leaders and the officer himself.
> While some supporters are circulating a petition to honor the actions of the officer, Lt. Cmdr. Timothy White, West said that the Navy is prosecuting him for using his gun.
> ...



Now, I know that this doesn't preclude the Navy from charging LtCmdr. White at a later date, but it directly flies in the face of West's assertion that "...the United States Navy is bringing charges against Lt. Cmdr Timothy White for illegally discharging a firearm on federal property".

At this point, Allen West has been wrong on SO MANY THINGS that he could tell me his name and I would still question it.


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## DA SWO (Aug 5, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Surprise, surprise.  Allen West is full of shit once again!
> 
> *"(Prosecution) is not in the works. We have no plans to press charges,"*
> Is a Navy officer who shot at the Chattanooga shooter facing charges?
> ...


Agreed with your post, but his story generated a lot of pushback and that influences the ball-less wonders running the show.


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