# Should The Purple Heart Be Awarded For The Orlando Attack?



## Marauder06 (Jun 17, 2016)

Headline says it all.  What do you think?

(click here for additional background and perspective)



> While controversies rage about the causes of the Orlando terrorist attack, a new one is brewing about its aftermath.  One of the 49 innocent Americans who were murdered by Omar Mateen, a US citizen of Afghan heritage who claimed affiliation with the Islamist terror group known as ISIS, was an Army Reservist named Antonio Brown.  Captain Brown was off duty and at the club in his capacity as a private citizen, far from declared combat zones, when the attack occurred.  Nonetheless, some people think he should be posthumously awarded the Purple Heart.


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## TLDR20 (Jun 17, 2016)

He wasn't activated, I don't think so.


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## Florida173 (Jun 17, 2016)

I agree with @TLDR20 on this one. The criteria has "while serving under competent authority in any capacity with one of the U.S. Armed Services," but I'm sure that could probably be interpreted both ways.


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## Gunz (Jun 17, 2016)

Offhand I'd say no...but it's a tricky question. Weren't the Ft Hood victims awarded the PH following a similar debate once it was ruled an act of terrorism?


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## Marauder06 (Jun 17, 2016)

Yes, the Fort Hood troops were (eventually) awarded the PH.


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## 104TN (Jun 17, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Yes, the Fort Hood troops were (eventually) awarded the PH.


Weren't they on duty/in uniform? Same applies to the Marines & Sailor that died in the Chattanooga shooting.


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## DasBoot (Jun 17, 2016)

Yes, the precedent has already been set.


> Last year, Congress changed the law governing the Purple Heart to broaden the definition of an attack by a "a foreign terrorist organization" to include what's become known as "lone-wolf attacks." The new law says troops are eligible if an attack is "inspired or motivated by the foreign terrorist organization."
> 
> That change is allowing the Air Force to award Stone a Purple Heart because the French law enforcement authorities are treating the train shooting as an act of terrorism.



More here-
Pentagon rethinks valor awards as troops now face 'worldwide threat'


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## Isshin2 (Jun 17, 2016)

I agree with DasBoot. I say yes, the precent has already been set and terrorism is a worldwide threat.

On the other hand, I would like to know what his actions where before his untimely death. I would like to believe that he did what a Soldier would do and was killed trying to attack the terrorist scumbag, then yes, I absolutely believe he deserves it. If he coward and tried to run like most of the other patrons, then I would say no to the award. If he was killed in the initial onslaught of the attack, then I'm leaning towards a "yes, maybe, I don't know."


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## SpitfireV (Jun 17, 2016)

I suppose a good test is "if he had done something heroic that night would he be entitled to a military bravery award?"
I would wager the answer would be no since he wasn't in a military capacity.


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## TLDR20 (Jun 17, 2016)

If he would have been on duty/activated I'd be ok with it.


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## AWP (Jun 17, 2016)

He deserves the Purple Heart if for no other reason than a strong precedent from the 80's.

I couldn't find much, but it looks like the victims of the 1988 USO bombing in Naples were awarded the Purple Heart. The soldiers wounded in the 1986 Berlin disco bombing also received Purple Hearts.

39 Soldiers Get Purple Hearts For Disco Bombing Wounds


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## DasBoot (Jun 17, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> He deserves the Purple Heart if for no other reason than a strong precedent from the 80's.
> 
> I couldn't find much, but it looks like the victims of the 1988 USO bombing in Naples were awarded the Purple Heart. The soldiers wounded in the 1986 Berlin disco bombing also received Purple Hearts.
> 
> 39 Soldiers Get Purple Hearts For Disco Bombing Wounds


The USN diver who was killed in that high jacking received a BSM and a PH


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## AWP (Jun 17, 2016)

DasBoot said:


> The USN diver who was killed in that high jacking received a BSM and a PH



Stethem did for TWA 847, but he was returning from an assignment. I guess one could make the argument he was on duty. The others clearly weren't.

Stethem deserved any recognition he received and more. Blue Skies.


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## Florida173 (Jun 17, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> He deserves the Purple Heart if for no other reason than a strong precedent from the 80's.
> 
> I couldn't find much, but it looks like the victims of the 1988 USO bombing in Naples were awarded the Purple Heart. The soldiers wounded in the 1986 Berlin disco bombing also received Purple Hearts.
> 
> 39 Soldiers Get Purple Hearts For Disco Bombing Wounds



Biggest issue is that it's not the same thing. They were "serving under competent authority in any capacity with one of the U.S. Armed Services."

The reservist would qualify if he was doing his reserve duties.


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## AWP (Jun 17, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Biggest issue is that it's not the same thing. They were "serving under competent authority in any capacity with one of the U.S. Armed Services."
> 
> The reservist would qualify if he was doing his reserve duties.



So going to the disco is different than the Orlando shooting? The Reservist doesn't rate because he wasn't spending personal time off while on orders?


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## Gunz (Jun 17, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> If he would have been on duty/activated I'd be ok with it.



You disagree with my question? Or you are saying the Ft Hood victims were not awarded PHs?


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## Florida173 (Jun 17, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> So going to the disco is different than the Orlando shooting? The Reservist doesn't rate because he wasn't spending personal time off while on orders?



What are you talking about? Was the Reservist on orders that weekend?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 17, 2016)

I don't care if they give him one or not. A nice gesture for his family, but at the end of the day, dude is dead, a PH ain't going change that.

Now if he did some heroic shit in there, I'd say appropriately award him the same award he would rate in a combat zone.

Good friend of mine Derrick charged Hussain at the Ft Hood shooting, with nothing more than a pocket knife. He also gave aid to several of the wounded. He was awarded the Soldiers medal, I think it should be changed to a DSC, especially after they awarded BSM and PH to others.


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## AWP (Jun 17, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> What are you talking about? Was the Reservist on orders that weekend?



What?



> Biggest issue is that it's not the same thing. They were "serving under competent authority in any capacity with one of the U.S. Armed Services."



How are Berlin and Orlando any different? Everyone was off duty.


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## Brill (Jun 17, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> What?
> 
> 
> 
> How are Berlin and Orlando any different? Everyone was off duty.



There is no off duty when you're on duty.


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## Brill (Jun 17, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Yes, the Fort Hood troops were (eventually) awarded the PH.



Ft Hood shooter was tied directly to AQAP but this guy was not (per FBI and CIA). I don't think Orlando even meets Federal definition of terrorism; hate crime yes.


Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and


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## policemedic (Jun 17, 2016)

I say yes.

The nature of terrorist attacks is such that previously used criteria for military awards are no longer relevant in all cases. 

I wonder if we'd be debating whether he discharged his official duty if he had killed the terrorist and was being considered for something higher than the PH.

His oath applies 24/7.  Give him the medal, just like we gave it to Spencer Stone for his actions in France.


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## policemedic (Jun 17, 2016)

lindy said:


> Ft Hood shooter was tied directly to AQAP but this guy was not (per FBI and CIA). I don't think Orlando even meets Federal definition of terrorism; hate crime yes.
> 
> 
> Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and



He claimed affiliation and pledged allegiance.  Given that ISIS is actively promoting singleton attacks in their name to further their cause--and this guy voiced opposition to USG actions--his statement is good enough. 

It's not like these cunts have membership cards.


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## Brill (Jun 17, 2016)

policemedic said:


> He claimed affiliation and pledged allegiance.  Given that ISIS is actively promoting singleton attacks in their name to further their cause--and this guy voiced opposition to USG actions--his statement is good enough.
> 
> It's not like these cunts have membership cards.



Pledging bayat apparently doesn't satisfy the USG (not my rules).

Regarding ID cards, they actually do have them.  How do you think they pass through the various checkpoints within the IS?


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## policemedic (Jun 17, 2016)

lindy said:


> Pledging bayat apparently doesn't satisfy the USG (not my rules).
> 
> Regarding ID cards, they actually do have them.  How do you think they pass through the various checkpoints within the IS?



I thought they had to prove membership by torturing a starving kitten or demonstrating the proper method of seducing a goat.  Kind of a secret frat handshake thing. 

I actually didn't know they had ID cards, but I think membership/allegiance should not be determined by whether you're officially on the rolls.


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## TLDR20 (Jun 17, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> You disagree with my question? Or you are saying the Ft Hood victims were not awarded PHs?



I disagree with your question, I think that the Fort Hood shooting and this are different scenarios.


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## TLDR20 (Jun 17, 2016)

lindy said:


> Ft Hood shooter was tied directly to AQAP but this guy was not (per FBI and CIA). I don't think Orlando even meets Federal definition of terrorism; hate crime yes.
> 
> 
> Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and





lindy said:


> He looks weak not saying what world leaders and everyone, including Muslims, are saying.



So... You think President Obama is weak for not saying this is Islamic Extremism, but then you say this is not terrorism? I am confused.


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## Florida173 (Jun 17, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> So... You think President Obama is weak for not saying this is Islamic Extremism, but then you say this is not terrorism? I am confused.


Interesting that you think they're one in the same..


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## TLDR20 (Jun 17, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Interesting that you think they're one in the same..



I think Islamic Extremism is terrorism. It is using religious ideals to perpetrate political ideas on a mass population using violence.


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## Florida173 (Jun 17, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I think Islamic Extremism is terrorism. It is using religious ideals to perpetrate political ideas on a mass population using violence.



I agree with you, but how many Islamic countries have homosexuality as a capital crime and have done way worse than Mateen did last weekend?


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## TLDR20 (Jun 17, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> I agree with you, but how many Islamic countries have homosexuality as a capital crime and have done way worse than Mateen did last weekend?



Yeah, that is true. But that isn't here, I think those places use violence on their people to keep them living in fear, which is terrorism. 

To be honest I think there are parts of America with minute Muslim populations where the same would be true if not for our more progressive politics in the US.


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## Brill (Jun 17, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> So... You think President Obama is weak for not saying this is Islamic Extremism, but then you say this is not terrorism? I am confused.



No, he looks weak for not saying and acknowledging that radical Islam exists and they are at war with us and the West. He appears to be denying this fact for political purposes.

I'm not sure Orlando meets the governments definition of terrorism because the government doesn't appear to be influenced in order to change its conduct unless his goal was to change gun laws.  I'm not trying to be a dick but...press seems to be conflicted regarding motive from repressed homosexual feelings to Islamic beliefs, which if true, absolutely supports the idea that radical Islam exists.

AQ wanted the US out of Saudi Arabia and repeatedly attacked US targets. The United States significantly changed the number of overt military in KSA.  The IRA conducted bombing to change British politics.

If a Muslim kills in the name of religion because he believes he is compelled to do so, how are they trying to influence anyone/anything? Even if he killed Americans on behalf of IS, he's just a soldier because they believe we either conver or die. Period.

IS has never expressed political demands from the West. You guys know more about UW and subversion but isn't terrorist tactics without political demands just asymmetric warfare?


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## Brill (Jun 17, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I think Islamic Extremism is terrorism. It is using religious ideals to perpetrate political ideas on a mass population using violence.



I'm 50/50 with you because of his IS connection. Had he pledged to AQ, totally agree.

IS wants death to kuffar.


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## Brill (Jun 17, 2016)

Interesting. I'm not sure I disagree with the county commissioner as long as the decision is based on legal interpretation vice outright bigotry.  Very interesting dilemma...and then I read subsection 10, which is pretty clear CINC can alter customs.

Let the voters of Baldwin County decide.

Alabama county officials refuse to lower flag to honor Orlando shooting victims - CNNPolitics.com


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## SpongeBob*24 (Jun 17, 2016)

Show me he ran toward the sound of gun fire....then maybe!

Not today!!!!!


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 18, 2016)

I don't get how any of you are trying to equate a PH with an act of bravery. That's what ARCOM (V) BS (V) and above are for. 

A Purple Heart is solely for being wounded or killed in the line of duty, precluding misconduct before the enemy. 

I voted yes, with the caveat that I don't know if he was active duty. This was an act of terrorism with an element that we are in active conflict with, and better yet was on American soil yet again. If he was anything other than IRR than the PH is warranted IMHO.  Survivor accounts will matter for if any further awards are warranted on top of the PH.


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## Gunz (Jun 19, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I disagree with your question, I think that the Fort Hood shooting and this are different scenarios.



I think they are much different scenarios, too. But I'm not real clear on who they award PHs to nowadays. My feeling is if the person meets the criteria...but the criteria seems to be open to some interpretation and maybe needs to be fleshed out a little better. As a PH recipient I'm against opening up the criteria too much, but by the same token, I'm trying to be open-minded with regard to the uniqueness of terrorist attacks.

@Ranger Psych is correct, it's not a bravery medal. As my Senior Drill Instructor used to say: "It ain't nuthin but a Viet Cong marksmanship badge."


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## Teufel (Jun 19, 2016)

I'm a purist. I think the Purple Heart should be awarded overseas in a contingency or declared combat area. I am also a PH recipient. The PH is not awarded for bravery but historically it has been awarded to personnel who willing risk their lives and deploy to a contingency or war zone and are wounded by enemy action. That being said, precedent has been set and precedent indicates that these service members rate the award.


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 19, 2016)

I get your position, but have to ask this:  Is this not a "Global War on Terror"?  Where's the battlefield, when we continue to have attacks on our home soil versus in a well defined combat area?


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## moobob (Jun 20, 2016)

I think it's pretty simple. Ft. Hood was targeted for military affiliation. The Orlando victim was an off duty reservist in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was terrorism, but he likely was not being targeted for being in the military. No Purple Heart.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 20, 2016)

moobob said:


> I think it's pretty simple. Ft. Hood was targeted for military affiliation. The Orlando victim was an off duty reservist in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was terrorism, but he likely was not being targeted for being in the military. No Purple Heart.


Then what about the Air Force guys on the train in Europe?  Not being targeted for being in the military, still got a Purple Heart.


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## moobob (Jun 20, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Then what about the Air Force guys on the train in Europe?  Not being targeted for being in the military, still got a Purple Heart.


Also simple, they engaged a terrorist in hand to hand combat.

They went from bystander to combatant.


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## Gunz (Jun 20, 2016)

moobob said:


> I think it's pretty simple. Ft. Hood was targeted for military affiliation. The Orlando victim was an off duty reservist in the wrong place at the wrong time. It was terrorism, *but he likely was not being targeted for being in the military.* No Purple Heart.



That makes sense to me.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 21, 2016)

moobob said:


> Also simple, they engaged a terrorist in hand to hand combat.
> 
> They went from bystander to combatant.



That's great and all, not a requirement for the PH.  "Bystanders" often get the Purple Heart.


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## Florida173 (Jun 21, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> That's great and all, not a requirement for the PH.  "Bystanders" often get the Purple Heart.



They were active duty


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## Marauder06 (Jun 21, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> They were active duty


Not a requirement for the PH.


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## Florida173 (Jun 21, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Not a requirement for the PH.





> while serving under competent authority in any capacity with one of the U.S. Armed Services


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## moobob (Jun 21, 2016)

I admit I hadn't read the prerequisites until now concerning the awarding of the PH in international terror attacks. It would make sense if someone was targeted for military affiliation, but as written, he does rate the award. It just seems weird that it is awarded it that manner.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 21, 2016)

When I saw them handed out for concussions, I kinda stopped really caring. I meet the prerequisites for both shrapnel and TBI, was asked at BAMC if I wanted one. I think it belongs to the dudes that bled and died in a combat zone, so I declined. If my command thought I warranted one they would have awarded me one. If the soldiers at Hood got them, why not this dude.


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## moobob (Jun 21, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> When I saw them handed out for concussions, I kinda stopped really caring. I meet the prerequisites for both shrapnel and TBI, was asked at BAMC if I wanted one. I think it belongs to the dudes that bled and died in a combat zone, so I declined. If my command thought I warranted one they would have awarded me one. If the soldiers at Hood got them, why not this dude.


That's how I felt about my unplanned runins with explosions. I am more or less ok. I realize some people got pretty screwed up through TBI, but the PH is one award I could do without.


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