# FBI 9MM Justification, FBI Training Division



## pardus (Oct 19, 2014)

First of all I don't even know if this is really the FBI saying this, it might be a case of "The FBI says most police sniper engagements are under 70yards" type of deal for all I know.
I'm not a pistol guy, I've never been professionally trained, I rarely shoot one due to where I live and I can't hit a barn door at 25yrds. Give me a .40 S&W and the barn door could be 10 yrds away and be safe, I'm hopeless with that round, but better with a .45 and a 9mm... :-/

That all said, if given the choice of pistol caliber I'd go with a 9mm.
It's an easier round to shoot and therefore inherently more accurate as a result, particularly for non expert types. Bottom line, shot placement is more important than caliber. It's an effective round too.
e.g. I have a good friend who was NYPD 50's - 70's, he laughs when people talk about the .38 being under powered. He incapacitated several cars during his career with a single round of .38 special.


What are your thoughts on this article and subject?

http://soldiersystems.net/2014/09/25/fbi-9mm-justification-fbi-training-division/






ETA: shot placement.


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## policemedic (Oct 20, 2014)

Two words: shot placement.


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## fox1371 (Oct 20, 2014)

Shot placement and shot succession.  Outside of that, it's a crap shoot.  

Here's the best article that I've read to date on the subject.

http://www.policemag.com/channel/we...opping-power-myths-legends-and-realities.aspx


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## x SF med (Oct 20, 2014)

9mm...  not a bad round, easy to shoot, low recoil, and you put a 147 Speer Gold Dot in it, and your target is going to have bad day.

I want a light pistol, since I like a .30 cal (.308) for my long gun...


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## Etype (Oct 21, 2014)

9mm is the round of choice in USPSA open, and they load them to meet major power factor, my point?  The whole .357 sig/10mm/.40 boondoggle that the FBI went through was an epic of money wasted when existing guns could've shot +P+ ammo and done the same thing.  Sure, they may stress some chambers and eventually damage some slides, buts its Budapest than going through 4 different guns searching for a silver bullet.

Spend that money federal govt, spend that money.


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## 0699 (Oct 21, 2014)

I love 9mm.  Back when I owned guns, I had several 9mms.  I like the controlability, the lack of felt recoil, and the capacity on even a small pistol.


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## AWP (Oct 21, 2014)

I have a G23, but f I had it to do over again I'd buy a 19 instead. With that said, I'm also not losing sleep over the decision.


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## Kraut783 (Oct 21, 2014)

Talking to some of the guys at work, they don't see fielding the 9mm that quick overall...probably with the new SA's, but slow getting them to the field offices.  A few on my squad are looking forward to having the Glock 19.

I still do the .45, but in a Glock 30S now instead of 1911.


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## Viper1 (Oct 24, 2014)

policemedic said:


> Two words: shot placement.



Agree.  Unfortunately, Senator Bobby Kennedy and Archduke Franz Ferdinand were killed with .22 caliber bullets.  Just saying...


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## Gunz (Oct 30, 2014)

38's a great caliber, I load my 357 with it. I like having the option but 357 jumps around too much. Many years ago I achieved a Oneness with the 1911, so it remains my best bud to this day. I've fired 9mm and enjoyed it but I've never owned one. Whatever, you hit the motherfucker, he dies, you live. If I ever need home defense I'm going for the rifles.

Last time I got drunk with a Marine bro, his son--an FBI SA out of the Orlando field office--was our designated driver.   He had the Glock 40 at the time. I'll ask him what he prefers...


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## DA SWO (Oct 30, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> 38's a great caliber, I load my 357 with it. I like having the option but 357 jumps around too much. Many years ago I achieved a Oneness with the 1911, so it remains my best bud to this day. I've fired 9mm and enjoyed it but I've never owned one. Whatever, you hit the motherfucker, he dies, you live. If I ever need home defense I'm going for the rifles.
> 
> Last time I got drunk with a Marine bro, his son--an FBI SA out of the Orlando field office--was our designated driver.   He had the Glock 40 at the time. I'll ask him what he prefers...


Hopefully he said women....


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## pardus (Oct 30, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> He had the Glock 40 at the time. I'll ask him what he prefers...



Also ask him what he has trained on. To say "I love *X* because it's all I've used" is a bit... limited.


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## Kraut783 (Oct 30, 2014)

One thing I can say, they don't use range ammo....always use duty ammo.


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## pardus (Oct 30, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> One thing I can say, they don't use range ammo....always use duty ammo.



Why? What's the difference?


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## 0699 (Oct 31, 2014)

pardus said:


> Also ask him what he has trained on. To say "I love *X* because it's all I've used" is a bit... limited.


 
A lot of candidates show up at new agent training having never fired a gun.


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## Gunz (Oct 31, 2014)

http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...How-the-FBI-reignited-the-pistol-caliber-war/

..."Issues of caliber and weapon selection pale in comparison to mindset, tactics, and training. We need to dedicate our extremely limited resources (time, money) to the things that matter the most, and equipment selection is at the very bottom of that list..."


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## DA SWO (Oct 31, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...How-the-FBI-reignited-the-pistol-caliber-war/
> 
> ..."Issues of caliber and weapon selection pale in comparison to mindset, tactics, and training. We need to dedicate our extremely limited resources (time, money) to the things that matter the most, and equipment selection is at the very bottom of that list..."


Money, time (to train/retrain), tactics (which can be a subset of training), equipment.


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## Gunz (Oct 31, 2014)

pardus said:


> Also ask him what he has trained on. To say "I love *X* because it's all I've used" is a bit... limited.


 
He says Glock Model 28 FG&R (finger groove & rail).


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## Kraut783 (Oct 31, 2014)

pardus said:


> Why? What's the difference?



Many departments, mine included, can't afford to buy and train with nothing but duty ammo.  So in training you might use cheaper ball CCI Blazer ammo and your duty ammo would be a higher grain, higher performance round, and more expensive.  It would be nice to just use duty ammo all the time, but that takes deep pockets.


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## policemedic (Oct 31, 2014)

The other thing is that it ensures your duty weapon functions with the duty ammo.  We were forced to use 165gr .40 S&W one year for training because of the ammo shortage, but we issue the troops 180gr.  Guess what...M&Ps were designed to function with a 180gr round, and there were several hiccups with the lighter rounds. 

Even when you're using good quality training ammo, like American Eagle, there are some measurable differences between say, AE training ammo and the issued Federal JHPs, even with the same bullet weights.

All that said, I'd rather see departments spend their money on lots of training ammo rather then spending big bucks to shoot JHPs at paper.  Shoot a lot of FMJ, but have them qualify with the duty round.  Best of both worlds and the troops get to shoot more.


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## Gunz (Nov 1, 2014)

I know almost nothing about law enforcement training, but technical issues aside, does it make all that much difference whether you use training or duty ammo on the range? Any day at the range is a good day, anytime your putting rounds on paper is a + proficiency day.


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## Kraut783 (Nov 1, 2014)

Not really, more time on the range is always better.  But, range ammo compared to duty ammo...it's kinda like shooting a shotgun with bird shot compared to double 00 buck


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## pardus (Nov 1, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> Not really, more time on the range is always better.  *But, range ammo compared to duty ammo...it's kinda like shooting a shotgun with bird shot compared to double 00 buck *



Is it really? How? Recoil? Weight of rounds in the weapon? What happens down range is meaningless because you're shooting paper vs flesh. 
I'm not getting the argument fully.


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## policemedic (Nov 1, 2014)

Kraut783 said:


> Not really, more time on the range is always better.  But, range ammo compared to duty ammo...it's kinda like shooting a shotgun with bird shot compared to double 00 buck



I guess it depends on what kind of training ammo and what kind of duty ammo you use.  Blazer is known to be somewhat low-quality, so I feel your pain and understand your argument. 

My duty round is a .45 ACP 230gr JHP from Black Hills. For training I normally use either American Eagle or Speer Lawman 230gr FMJ.  Those are accurate, good quality rounds and they go bang all the time.  On the other hand, I've shot some imported ammo that was so inaccurate it made me wonder if I knew how to shoot.   The plus side was that I got lots of practice clearing stoppages...

I think where departments get into trouble--both from a practical and legal perspective--is when they do things like using cheap standard pressure ammo but carry +P or +P+ duty rounds.  For example, training with 9mm 115gr FMJ but using 147gr +P JHPs on the road.


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## CQB (Nov 1, 2014)

As per the articles comment section, missing 70-80% of the time is a worry. Do they shoot both eyes open? It makes a difference as most incidents IMO would be at close range & therefore not mush time to aim. 
Apart from that, the Braille I'm reading says it's an ad for Luger with some very interesting points along the way.


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## Gunz (Nov 2, 2014)

CQB said:


> ...missing 70-80% of the time is a worry...


 
Yes, and they list higher mag capacity as one reason to justify 9mm Luger. That, to me, is not a solution for 70-80% misses in high-adrenal moments.

One thing I've noticed in some videos of LEO vrs BG handgun shootouts. Trying to duck and weave and shoot at the same time, rounds flying all over the place.  That shows me, not a need for a caliber debate, but a need for more training that will increase self-confidence in one's own skill and proficiency, that in turn allows a person to risk exposure long enough to make effective hits. The steadier hand, the cooler head prevails. Or, in the words of a Corpsman I know, "suspend your fear long enough to do your job efficiently."


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## pardus (Nov 2, 2014)

I've seen a video of two NYPD cops, were following a gunman who had just murdered a co-worker, the cops approached, the gunman spun around with a pistol in his hand and the cops opened fire (one firing 7 times, the other 9 times), killing the gunman, in a crowed tourist area, the cops also shot 9 bystanders...



> "it appears that all nine of the victims were struck either by fragments or by bullets fired by police," Police Commissioner Raymond Kelly told reporters on--
> --He reiterated that the officers appeared to have no choice but to shoot Johnson, whose body had 10 bullet wounds in the chest, arms and legs.--
> "I believe it was handled well," Kelly said.



Now I'm not trying to slam cops with this at all. It's just that guns and cops are a scary mix to me (I'm also not saying they shouldn't carry them, that's preposterous IMO), I'm saying a lot of cops are nervous about guns and situations where guns are involved. That scares me.

http://www.newsday.com/news/nation/nypd-cops-bullets-wounded-9-at-empire-state-1.3926801


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## racing_kitty (Nov 2, 2014)

pardus said:


> I've seen a video of two NYPD cops, were following a gunman who had just murdered a co-worker, the cops approached, the gunman spun around with a pistol in his hand and the cops opened fire (one firing 7 times, the other 9 times), killing the gunman, in a crowed tourist area, the cops also shot 9 bystanders...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This came up in a conversation that I had with @policemedic several months ago.  Something that he mentioned as a factor in this particular shootout, something that I wasn't aware of, is that NYPD is required to have a ridiculously high amount of trigger pull on their service weapons.  I don't remember the exact poundage, but it's enough that it could very well negatively affect your ability to hit whomever it is you're aiming at.  That's not even taking into account range time (or lack thereof) spent with that weapon to attain/maintain proficiency.


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## Kraut783 (Nov 2, 2014)

pardus said:


> Is it really? How? Recoil? Weight of rounds in the weapon? What happens down range is meaningless because you're shooting paper vs flesh.
> I'm not getting the argument fully.



Our training ammo (Blazer) is fine for shooting at the range and for training.  But our duty ammo, in my case Remington Golden Saber .45 Auto, 230 Grain BJHP, is a higher grain round so there is more recoil per shot. 

As policemedic stated earlier "I think where departments get into trouble--both from a practical and legal perspective--is when they do things like using cheap standard pressure ammo but carry +P or +P+ duty rounds. For example, training with 9mm 115gr FMJ but using 147gr +P JHPs on the road."  A lot of departments have to do this to same cost of buying thousands of rounds a year....it would be nice to have deep pockets like the feds.

It would be great to always use the duty ammo all the time....your training shooting would be consistent with shooting on duty.


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## pardus (Nov 2, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> This came up in a conversation that I had with @policemedic several months ago.  Something that he mentioned as a factor in this particular shootout, something that I wasn't aware of, is that NYPD is required to have a ridiculously high amount of trigger pull on their service weapons.  I don't remember the exact poundage, but it's enough that it could very well negatively affect your ability to hit whomever it is you're aiming at.  That's not even taking into account range time (or lack thereof) spent with that weapon to attain/maintain proficiency.



Interesting, and not surprising. 
I spoke with an ex NYPD cop, he worked at the NYPD qual range for years, he told of one cop who showed up to qual with a pistol so rusty it wouldn't operate and another who turned up with an unloaded weapon, when questioned about it, it turned out the weapon hadn't been reloaded since the last time the cop had been at the qual range... 
NYC is particularly bad as there is no gun culture there at all, the cops are generally un familiar with them. 




Kraut783 said:


> Our training ammo (Blazer) is fine for shooting at the range and for training.  But our duty ammo, in my case Remington Golden Saber .45 Auto, 230 Grain BJHP, is a higher grain round so there is more recoil per shot.
> 
> As policemedic stated earlier "I think where departments get into trouble--both from a practical and legal perspective--is when they do things like using cheap standard pressure ammo but carry +P or +P+ duty rounds. For example, training with 9mm 115gr FMJ but using 147gr +P JHPs on the road."  A lot of departments have to do this to same cost of buying thousands of rounds a year....it would be nice to have deep pockets like the feds.
> 
> It would be great to always use the duty ammo all the time....your training shooting would be consistent with shooting on duty.



Gotcha, thanks.


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## racing_kitty (Nov 2, 2014)

pardus said:


> I spoke with an ex NYPD cop, he worked at the NYPD qual range for years, he told of one cop who showed up to qual with a pistol so rusty it wouldn't operate and another who turned up with an unloaded weapon, when questioned about it, it turned out *the weapon hadn't been reloaded since the last time the cop had been at the qual range... *
> NYC is particularly bad as there is no gun culture there at all, the cops are generally un familiar with them.



The highlighted text above makes my stomach turn.  He needs to have his service weapon applied forcefully to the side of his head until the lesson has been learned through forced osmosis.  With each crushing blow to his temple, reiterate that the beating would never have happened if there were any bullets in the fucking gun with which to shoot the man who was beating him.

I wish I could say that I'm surprised about the condition of the first cop's weapon, but I'm not.  That reminds me of when I was assigned an M249 in November 2004 that still had carbon and Iraqi sand in it from sometime in OIF 1.  It took me three days to get that thing cleaned back to my standard (which apparently was higher than the unit standard), and that was with the help of three other sets of hands and a Dremel I borrowed from an NCO in my platoon.  That was my first taste of just how lax people are with simple cleanliness of their service weapons.  I had always thought that slovenly guns were the exception to the rule; sadly, it looks more like impeccable maintenance is the outlier these days.


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## Brill (Nov 2, 2014)

pardus said:


> Interesting, and not surprising.
> I spoke with an ex NYPD cop, he worked at the NYPD qual range for years, he told of one cop who showed up to qual with a pistol so rusty it wouldn't operate and another who turned up with an unloaded weapon, when questioned about it, it turned out the weapon hadn't been reloaded since the last time the cop had been at the qual range...



But I bet his M4 and his tactical MRAP were clean as a whistle with 210 rounds...ready for that no knock warrant to nab those hostile unpaid parking ticket repeat offenders.  ISIL inspired homegrown lone wolfs are out there and they're targeting doughnut shops...er, cops...who have police related photos on their facebook!!!:-/

It's only a matter of time before police get JTAC training.


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## AWP (Nov 2, 2014)

Years ago I shot a handful of IPSC matches and hung around for a few more. In that brief time I saw 4 LEO's who were new to IPSC. Only one returned for a follow-on match, 1 left in the middle of a match, and two finished the day and never returned. One of the regulars was an LEO and worked with those 4. He said the reason he stayed with it is because he realized how much he didn't know. The 4 who showed up were chest-thumping, high scores on their annual qualifications, guys who other cops would ask for advice. Makes sense, right? Scoring high on your dept.'s annual qual means you're good, right? Yes, I'm aware that IPSC/ USPSA/ IDPA uses "soft" rounds and the LEO's were shooting "full flavored" rounds, but that doesn't change the results. They weren't hitting anything. The only upside was it made the targets easier to paste after a run...

Fast forward to the present and soldiers/ airmen in Afghanistan. I've seen weapons "frozen" closed because of the accumulated dirt, weapons shipped over with missing firing pins or cracked bolt carriers, and many, many more which were utterly filthy. Many/ most of these folks are fobbits, I get that, but quite a few others were part of an RCT trolling for mines. They left the wire daily and their weapons BEFORE a patrol looked like ass. I've also seen other units with the same fobbit MOS' and their weapons were almost silver from the constant cleaning; gear which was worn, but not dirty.

Leadership...for two groups of people who rely on guns to save their asses, the mentality is the same in many places: guns are dangerous, safety violations will hurt a career, shooting costs money, etc., etc., etc., This fear or ignorance about guns isn't limited to LEO's, the NYPD, the military...it is across the board. The M16/ M4 family takes hits for not being reliable in bad conditions, but honestly how many units are religiously maintaining their weapons? A thorough cleaning, keeping the bolt lubed, cleaning when 5 minutes are available...those kinds of things. The Air Force will only allow a weapon to be cleaned in a specific location at a specific time every week. Some rotations don't even bother to inspect the weapons, only to check that Airman Snuffy signed in; some, not all.

The mentality, the fear, the worry, the inflated sense of one's capabilities....they exist across the board. Leadership may not have the money for training rounds, but they should have the moral fiber to close the gaps in other areas. The fact is, they don't and I question if they even try. To put it in another light, think about if you simply carried a weapon as much as you spent in the motor pool performing PMCS' or sweeping the concrete.

This comes down to leadership and a "corporate culture" which is also defined by? Bueller?

Leadership.


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## 0699 (Nov 2, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> Fast forward to the present and soldiers/ airmen in Afghanistan. I've seen weapons "frozen" closed because of the accumulated dirt, weapons shipped over with missing firing pins or cracked bolt carriers, and many, many more which were utterly filthy. Many/ most of these folks are fobbits, I get that, but quite a few others were part of an RCT trolling for mines. They left the wire daily and their weapons BEFORE a patrol looked like ass. I've also seen other units with the same fobbit MOS' and their weapons were almost silver from the constant cleaning; gear which was worn, but not dirty.


 
My first combat deployment, as a corporal, I had a "policy" that the first thing we  (my team) did every morning, even before breakfast, was clean our weapons, polish our boots, wash & shave.  I then inspected the team to make sure these things were all done correctly.  Every day.  I was continually amazed by the number of my peers and leaders that told me I was being "too hard".  They would all admit I was right, but they wouldn't demand the same from their teams.  I honestly believe that America has a MAJOR leadership problem.  It's better in the military than on the outside world, but even a lot of military supervisors are (afraid/lazy?) to establish a standard, inspect to a standard, maintain the standard.  The worst thing is I don't know how to fix it. :wall:



> The mentality, the fear, the worry, *the inflated sense of one's capabilities*....they exist across the board. Leadership may not have the money for training rounds, but they should have the moral fiber to close the gaps in other areas. The fact is, they don't and I question if they even try. To put it in another light, think about if you simply carried a weapon as much as you spent in the motor pool performing PMCS' or sweeping the concrete.
> 
> This comes down to leadership and a "corporate culture" which is also defined by? Bueller?
> 
> Leadership.


 
Another thing that drives me crazy.  Just because you went to a course three years ago doesn't mean you're proficient.


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## Gunz (Nov 2, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> ...Fast forward to the present and soldiers/ airmen in Afghanistan. I've seen weapons "frozen" closed because of the accumulated dirt, weapons shipped over with missing firing pins or cracked bolt carriers, and many, many more which were utterly filthy. Many/ most of these folks are fobbits, I get that, but quite a few others were part of an RCT trolling for mines. They left the wire daily and their weapons BEFORE a patrol looked like ass...


 

I'm shocked...I guess I shouldn't be but I am.

But _not_ of the mentality that guns are dangerous and we wouldn't want any safety violations so make sure the Marines at the Beirut Barracks gate keep their weapons unloaded.


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## DA SWO (Nov 2, 2014)

NYPD has 10? 12? lb pulls on their triggers.
I wonder if the same rules apply to the Mayor's PSD?


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## 0699 (Nov 2, 2014)

^^^

12 pounds.


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## AWP (Nov 2, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> I'm shocked...I guess I shouldn't be but I am.
> 
> But _not_ of the mentality that guns are dangerous and we wouldn't want any safety violations so make sure the Marines at the Beirut Barracks gate keep their weapons unloaded.


 
Something that bothered me more: The Air Force camp on Bagram until about...2006 or 2007, was a closed camp with Security Forces manning ECP's. You had to present your ID  and show your business with the Wing to even be admitted to Camp Cunningham. Periodically, the airmen at the ECP's would check every weapon entering or exiting the camp. I asked one of the NCO's about this once and his response was...frightening. Roughly 10% of the weapons checked had a round in the chamber with the safety off. Roughly 30% of all weapons had some safety violation. Back then, shoulder hoslters were horizontal, so we were constantly flagged by almost anyone with a pistol. At that ttime, the number of people who lived/ worked in Camp Cunningham was around 500-600 and the AFSF airmen ran these checks every few weeks or so. Now think about it, every time they checked weapons roughly 10% were loaded with the safety off. That tells me people were constantly playing with their weapons because you'd expct those numbers to decline over time if these were one-off incidents.

I've witnessed airmen conducting "quick draw" competitions indoors with other airmen judging the winner, listened to airmen play with their weapon while taking a dump...bad, bad practices.

I know the other branches have their own problems, so I'm not attempting to pick on the AF, just provide some numbers. I can bet if the AF has this problem, other services do as well. It goes back to leadership and a culture which carries a weapon for a living but is afraid of or "disrespectful to" that weapon. Hell, how many times do we hear about someone ND'ing into their leg while holstering a pistol? And those stories are instructors or LEO's? We have a society were everyone who serves is a "warrior" but we don't allow them to train with their weapons and many are either afraid of them or totally ignorant of what they possess. Mature, safe handling of firearms is almost a dying or dead skill.


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## Grunt (Nov 2, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> ...We have a society were everyone who serves is a "warrior" but we don't allow them to train with their weapons and many are either afraid of them or totally ignorant of what they possess. Mature, safe handling of firearms is almost a dying or dead skill.



There is much truth in your entire post, but this part stuck out to me the most. You are absolutely correct. There are many out there who tote a weapon that are either totally afraid of it or treat it like a toy and they are in combat or LE related fields. It's sad to acknowledge.

I  hate to even have to write this, but I have witnessed people in both positions -- military and law enforcement -- that I have actually witnessed looking down the barrel of a loaded weapon in order to see if it was loaded.

I was embarrassed for them. Truly saddening...and, maddening at the same time.


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## Gunz (Nov 3, 2014)

Agoge said:


> There is much truth in your entire post, but this part stuck out to me the most. You are absolutely correct. There are many out there who tote a weapon that are either totally afraid of it or treat it like a toy and they are in combat or LE related fields. It's sad to acknowledge.
> 
> I  hate to even have to write this, but I have witnessed people in both positions -- military and law enforcement -- that I have actually witnessed looking down the barrel of a loaded weapon in order to see if it was loaded.
> 
> I was embarrassed for them. Truly saddening...and, maddening at the same time.


 

Most of the flagrant dumbass gun moments I've seen have been on civilian ranges.  Proper weapons handling was so paramount in the Marine units I served with, I can't recall seeing anything that unsafe...but maybe things have changed.  I was TDY as a range NCO at the Naval Amphib Base, Little Creek, and they were bussing in midshipmen from USNA for M16 fam-fire and organic weapons demos. We saw not a few violations amongst the middies but were quick and unmerciful in our chastisement


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## 0699 (Nov 3, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> I know the other branches have their own problems, so I'm not attempting to pick on the AF, just provide some numbers. I can bet if the AF has this problem, other services do as well. It goes back to leadership and a culture which carries a weapon for a living but is afraid of or "disrespectful to" that weapon. Hell, how many times do we hear about someone ND'ing into their leg while holstering a pistol? And those stories are instructors or LEO's? *We have a society were everyone who serves is a "warrior" but we don't allow them to train with their weapons and many are either afraid of them or totally ignorant of what they possess*. Mature, safe handling of firearms is almost a dying or dead skill.


 
IIRC, in Col Hackworth's book _About Face_, when he was a recruit battalion commander at Ft Lewis during the Vietnam War, his recruits had a blank round chambered at all times.  Made it very easy to find out who was violating the weapons handling principles and served as an instant reinforcer of training.


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## busdriver (Nov 3, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> Roughly 10% of the weapons checked had a round in the chamber with the safety off.


This is actually how the AF trains people to carry the M9, I know it's in conflict with the Army's policy.  That said, there are more than one DAO pistol with no external safety.  I realize there is a difference with hammer spur vs no hammer spur.  I think the M9 is a terrible design wrt to the manual safety.


> Back then, shoulder holsters were horizontal, so we were constantly flagged by almost anyone with a pistol.


This is something that drives me nuts, why is a horizontal holster flagging people?  It's in a holster, the trigger is blocked.  Unless you think guns go bang on their own, there is no danger.  That said, I think shoulder holsters shouldn't be allowed unless they are worn correctly, that is to say tied to a belt otherwise they're just flapping weights begging to send a pistol flying across the room.


> Hell, how many times do we hear about someone ND'ing into their leg while holstering a pistol?
> 
> Mature, safe handling of firearms is almost a dying or dead skill.


I left the last two snippets together because you could not be more right.  I took a class and the instructor basically said he could judge a person's weapons skill by handing them a pistol and seeing what they would do with it.  4 seconds, that's all it took to judge their skill level.


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## DA SWO (Nov 3, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> Something that bothered me more: The Air Force camp on Bagram until about...2006 or 2007, was a closed camp with Security Forces manning ECP's. You had to present your ID  and show your business with the Wing to even be admitted to Camp Cunningham. Periodically, the airmen at the ECP's would check every weapon entering or exiting the camp. I asked one of the NCO's about this once and his response was...frightening. Roughly 10% of the weapons checked had a round in the chamber with the safety off. Roughly 30% of all weapons had some safety violation. Back then, shoulder hoslters were horizontal, so we were constantly flagged by almost anyone with a pistol. At that ttime, the number of people who lived/ worked in Camp Cunningham was around 500-600 and the AFSF airmen ran these checks every few weeks or so. Now think about it, every time they checked weapons roughly 10% were loaded with the safety off. That tells me people were constantly playing with their weapons because you'd expct those numbers to decline over time if these were one-off incidents.
> 
> I've witnessed airmen conducting "quick draw" competitions indoors with other airmen judging the winner, listened to airmen play with their weapon while taking a dump...bad, bad practices.
> 
> I know the other branches have their own problems, so I'm not attempting to pick on the AF, just provide some numbers. I can bet if the AF has this problem, other services do as well. It goes back to leadership and a culture which carries a weapon for a living but is afraid of or "disrespectful to" that weapon. Hell, how many times do we hear about someone ND'ing into their leg while holstering a pistol? And those stories are instructors or LEO's? We have a society were everyone who serves is a "warrior" but we don't allow them to train with their weapons and many are either afraid of them or totally ignorant of what they possess. Mature, safe handling of firearms is almost a dying or dead skill.


How many ND's were there?
AFSF carries with a round in the chamber, safety off in most locals.
Ironic that a cop would bitch about guys/gals doing what they do.
My other question, why issue weapons if you don't want me to have ammo in it?


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## AWP (Nov 3, 2014)

busdriver said:


> This is actually how the AF trains people to carry the M9, I know it's in conflict with the Army's policy.  That said, there are more than one DAO pistol with no external safety.  I realize there is a difference with hammer spur vs no hammer spur.  I think the M9 is a terrible design wrt to the manual safety.
> 
> This is something that drives me nuts, why is a horizontal holster flagging people?  It's in a holster, the trigger is blocked.  Unless you think guns go bang on their own, there is no danger.  That said, I think shoulder holsters shouldn't be allowed unless they are worn correctly, that is to say tied to a belt otherwise they're just flapping weights begging to send a pistol flying across the room.


 


SOWT said:


> How many ND's were there?
> AFSF carries with a round in the chamber, safety off in most locals.
> Ironic that a cop would bitch about guys/gals doing what they do.
> My other question, why issue weapons if you don't want me to have ammo in it?


 
I'm tracking with what you Gents are saying, but I'm surprised the AF teaches that and then goes to great lengths here to "unlearn" their own training. Sure, this is a Joint environment and the Army sets the rules, but a loaded chamber and the safety is off? We're seeing the odd airman here with a weapons qual waiver. Back when they brought weapons from their home station some deployed with weapons which could not fire. The military in general does a horrible job in teaching the use of a pistol and in many units a mediocre job with a rifle/ carbine. We're also taught not to point a weapon at something we don't want to shoot, but I understand the point about a holster. I've also seen soldiers and airmen dorking around with weapons, holstered or not. When we have a poor to nonexistent "system" for training I think we should be nervous. People can be real dumbasses and no service has cornered the market on intelligence. I understand where you're both coming from, but I think if you stood next to a clearing barrel over here you'd understand mine. We are sending gobs and gobs of fobbits over here and arming them, but only providing the barest of training.

ND's? I only know of a few, but those are hushed up. I happened to find out about one a few weeks ago, but in general those aren't discussed. To put it into perspective, the command used to brief us on the number of sexual assaults and drug busts, but any official word on an ND is like a unicorn or Bigfoot sighting. That goes for all of the branches out here. Once in a blue moon the Army would send out a safety gram with a few incidents, but even that practice has stopped.

I've seen too many utterly ridiculous weapons-related events to believe the DoD is properly educating our servicemembers. I'm not afraid of a firearm, but I am afraid of a firearm in the hands of most people, servicemembers included.


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## x SF med (Nov 3, 2014)

Even though I am fairly proficient in the use of firearms, they still scare me enough to treat them with respect. 
I have a dao pistol with no external safeties that is always in condition 0 (loaded, locked, one in the chamber, all it takes is a trigger pull and BOOM), in a holster generally where I can get at it or on my person.  Yes, I worry about AD/ND, but (knock wood) I haven't had one.  I refuse to get innured, complacent or lazy about my fear of what these tools can and will do.   I think that's the key, healthy respect of the capabilities of that tool sitting on your hip or on a sling over your shoulder...  and yes, fear of what it can wreak.


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## Gunz (Nov 4, 2014)

Anyone in the military issued a firearm would benefit greatly from having a couple of rabid, frothing, screaming DIs or PMIs ripping their ears off and stomping their goofy shit at the slightest most infinitesimal safety violation...at the mere _suggestion _of a safety violation. It's a lesson that lasts a lifetime. From what I'm reading here, some services need to ramp up and de-pussify their  firearms instruction before they start passing out free guns to every snuffy that comes along. 

If I were king there'd be one, tough-assed uncompromising standardized firearms training program for all military members...and LEOs too. And if you failed you'd never get within 10 feet of a loaded weapon.


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## pardus (Nov 4, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> Anyone in the military issued a firearm would benefit greatly from having a couple of rabid, frothing, screaming DIs or PMIs ripping their ears off and stomping their goofy shit at the slightest most infinitesimal safety violation...at the mere _suggestion _of a safety violation. It's a lesson that lasts a lifetime. From what I'm reading here, some services need to ramp up and de-pussify their  firearms instruction before they start passing out free guns to every snuffy that comes along.
> 
> If I were king there'd be one, tough-assed uncompromising standardized firearms training program for all military members...and LEOs too. And if you failed you'd never get within 10 feet of a loaded weapon.



I regularly tell people if I see their finger inside the trigger guard when they are not about to fire their weapon that I'll break it. Most know that I won't actually do that, but it's a kind of shocking/amusing statement that re-focuses people that maybe complacent/lazy.


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## Gunz (Nov 4, 2014)

pardus said:


> I regularly tell people if I see their finger inside the trigger guard when they are not about to fire their weapon that I'll break it. Most know that I won't actually do that, but it's a kind of shocking/amusing statement that re-focuses people that maybe complacent/lazy.


 
I think people need to be shocked. At the rifle range at Parris Island when you walked anywhere the barrel of that rifle had to be pointed downrange. Deviate from that direction by a degree and you literally get tackled by two or three PMIs. And then you get their spittle in both ears. When I was teaching my boys firearms safety, they saw a side of me they never want to see again. Their ears are still ringing. But I'd trust any of them with a hot weapon. And they're all great shots.


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## Grunt (Nov 4, 2014)

Ocoka One said:


> ...Their ears are still ringing...



Consistency with that goes a long way. My son grew up with a very healthy appreciation for firearms. Even though he is now 20 years old, he still acts like good ole dad is near him when he has a weapon out. One of his friends that he shoots with has often told me about the way my son handles weapons and makes him (the friend) handle his when they are together.

It's always nice to know that they retain the things you have taught them.


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## x SF med (Nov 4, 2014)

I have alienated a couple of people when running an impromptu range....   a firing line was set, there was a Range Officer (rotating, if you were RO, you did not fire)...   and trust me....  the people around us were scary enough that we left...  we should have had a clue, when they asked us why we had red bandana's tied to the bumpers and antennae of our trucks and why when we were only 20 feet from each other we had radios ...  they had never heard of hot range flags... or downrange communication.   Then they saw my aidbag....:wall::wall:


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## Brill (Nov 4, 2014)

x SF med said:


> I have alienated a couple of people when running an impromptu range....   a firing line was set, there was a Range Officer (rotating, if you were RO, you did not fire)...   and trust me....  the people around us were scary enough that we left...  we should have had a clue, when they asked us why we had red bandana's tied to the bumpers and antennae of our trucks and why when we were only 20 feet from each other we had radios ...  they had never heard of hot range flags... or downrange communication.   Then they saw my aidbag....:wall::wall:



Those were my same thoughts first time I shot with my attached ODA: lane one changing targets while lane two firing away.
Second thought: I'm actually going to make it out fine cuz these MFers are going to kill ALL the bad guys...and they did!


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## pardus (Nov 4, 2014)

lindy said:


> Those were my same thoughts first time I shot with my attached ODA: lane one changing targets while lane two firing away.
> Second thought: I'm actually going to make it out fine cuz these MFers are going to kill ALL the bad guys...and they did!



That is the shit I like and want! Danger close shooting and not giving a shit, because the guys doing it are good to go, so no worries!


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## Brill (Nov 4, 2014)

pardus said:


> That is the shit I like and want! Danger close shooting and not giving a shit, because the guys doing it are good to go, so no worries!



The only thing I ever worried about was not cutting the mustard with those guys.  Not everyone likes when a guy older than the TS shows up in the team room and announces "I'm your attachment."  My kids were older than some of the SF guys.

I carried a 9mm (no hijack!) and trained with service ammo.


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## pardus (Nov 4, 2014)

lindy said:


> The only thing I ever worried about was not cutting the mustard with those guys.  Not everyone likes when a guy older than the TS shows up in the team room and announces "I'm your attachment."  My kids were older than some of the SF guys.
> 
> I carried a 9mm (no hijack!) and trained with service ammo.



Interesting. I grew up in a time when (generally) the older the guy, the better/more experienced he was, and therefor the more trusted he was (because he would be gone/kicked out, if he was not).


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 3, 2014)

http://www.policeone.com/patrol-iss...ne-cop-carries-145-rounds-of-ammo-on-the-job/

Good read and interesting twist that the officer went to a 9mm from a 45acp.

Excluding a few jumbo magnum pistol loads, pistol rds suck for gunfights. 

I agree with the officers lessons learned. Extra ammo, head shots, and train your arse off...


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## Kettenhund (Apr 22, 2015)

I read the FBI artical on their reversal and new acceptance of the 9mm.  I remember nearly 2 decades ago when they abandoned the 9mm and were pushing the 10mm!

I've always been a fan of the 9mm.  Easy to shoot, a slew of bullet weights, great capacity, and a huge assortment of quality manufacturers to choose from!

A few years ago our department considered retiring our Sig Sauer 228's.  They were 12+ years old and the tritium sights were dying.  I got a great trade in price from Sig toward the purchase of new P229's.  Really wanted to go 357 Sig but our Chief said, "9mm, good enough for the Kaiser, good enough for us"!  I swear, he really said that!  I agree that the 9mm is a great round but there have been many new improvements in defense rounds since 1909!  Long story short, I did not get the department the 357Sig, we carry 9mm 229's and I'm not sulking.  Qualifying a few members with the ultra hot 357 Sig would have been problematic and rounds would have been more expensive.  I preach shot placement during training.

As for qualifications, we carry 124gr. Federal Hydra- shock but for trading we use Eagle 124gr. Round nose.  A bit cheaper but more difficult to find than the hollow point.


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## Etype (Apr 23, 2015)

Kettenhund said:


> Really wanted to go 357 ... I did not get the department the 357Sig...


9mm overpressure rounds can do everything a .357 Sig can do.  You can get 1,400 FPS 125 gr 9mm.  All you'd need is a new recoil spring, which is cheap.


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## HOLLiS (Apr 23, 2015)

Everybody can shoot a 9mm.    As the caliber increase the % of people who can shoot becomes smaller.   

.357 is a signature round.   .38 Super has been around for a long time.  

I really like 10mm,  even my daughter is good with it.


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## x SF med (Apr 23, 2015)

I carried my issue .45 in the service, and I like .45.  I also shot the TT33 in 7.62P Soviet, used a .38 Special, used the Makarov 9mm short, went without a pistol for a long time, then won an Xd9 and have kept the 9mm as the pistol round  (I now have 3 different 9mm pistols) because I like having a single round choice for pistol in a break in situatin, I don't have to mess with making sure mags are the right ones caliber wise, all 3 pistols use much differently shaped mags so they don't get missed up.  A friend once showed up to the house who had loaded the wrong rounds into his 9mm, he had a .40 round mixed in.


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## HOLLiS (Apr 23, 2015)

x SF med said:


> I carried my issue .45 in the service, and I like .45.  I also shot the TT33 in 7.62P Soviet, used a .38 Special, used the Makarov 9mm short, went without a pistol for a long time, then won an Xd9 and have kept the 9mm as the pistol round  (I now have 3 different 9mm pistols) because I like having a single round choice for pistol in a break in situatin, I don't have to mess with making sure mags are the right ones caliber wise, all 3 pistols use much differently shaped mags so they don't get missed up.  A friend once showed up to the house who had loaded the wrong rounds into his 9mm, he had a .40 round mixed in.




I think that is the issue for any agency,  who will be carrying it.   The lowest common denomination comes to mind.


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## Kettenhund (Apr 23, 2015)

Etype said:


> 9mm overpressure rounds can do everything a .357 Sig can do.  You can get 1,400 FPS 125 gr 9mm.  All you'd need is a new recoil spring, which is cheap.


Etype, yes, +P and +P+ really get a 124gr projectile moving nicely.  Unfortunately "the boss" truly believes todays semi autos were not made to handle the increased wear of the hotter round.  Two or three years ago we were having a hell of a time getting out Federal Hydra-shock so we switched out to the Winchester +p Ranger T series (non coated Talon).  The "boss" was on a forced sabbatical at the time so the head firearms instructor and I made a judgement call.  When he returned he had a cow!!  Yeah, seriously!!!  Don't get me started on why we can't have M4's in 556.  We are stuck with 11.5 inch barreled Colt 9mm carbines.


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## Ranger Psych (Apr 23, 2015)

Well, I could see it if they were Hydra's using glock magazines. Easier overall supply chain then, but that'd be about it. I still like my .45 but that boils down to personal preference more than anything.


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## HOLLiS (Apr 23, 2015)

Ketten,  Chamber pressure are important or should not be ignore.   Depending on how the pistol is built is a factor on what it can take in terms of chamber pressures.   I would think rather than taking a old round and beefing it up,  use a more powerful round.

Recoil is s simple function,   for every action there is a opposite and equal reaction.    Bullet weight X Speed is the recoil (approximate terms).  

Issue with over loaded 9mm rounds, is that those rounds may find themselves in older pistols that will not take the pressure.  

Best example that I can think of right now, is the 45-70.   There are three different loads depending on the rifle that will shoot them.  Commercial loads are all group I, the weakest load.    Group II will disassemble a trapdoor springfield.   Group III will disassemble a lever action Marlin.  (close to 460 Win Mag Loads)

LEO in the US are more roving secretaries than pistolarrios.   Most will never fire their side arm in their careers.  So agencies needs something that everyone can shoot.



Ranger Psych said:


> Well, I could see it if they were Hydra's using glock magazines. Easier overall supply chain then, but that'd be about it. I still like my .45 but that boils down to personal preference more than anything.



I would think it is not personal preference,  In your case you have training and skills.   Most LEO do not have anything close to that.    .45 is a great round but a lot of people just can not shoot it.


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## Ranger Psych (Apr 23, 2015)

To an extent. I can pick up just about anything and do reasonably well with it... but I've been shooting my USP's for... hell, since about 1999 thereabouts. First was a .40, then .45 from there on. I actually should do some parts replacement on my Expert since while it's not worn out, it'd be preventative maintenance. Slide spring's got well around if not over 200k on it at this point since I bought it in 2001, but it still cooks with no issues performing... it's hard to not abide "ain't broke don't fix" but I'd rather swap them out then have something break, ya know?

The only thing I don't like is Glocks personally. The grip angle is just not what I'm used to nor is it an angle I ever liked plus the overall controls manufacture/location. They're fine weapons that do the job intended, but at the same time I sorta laugh when I see Salient 4k cost glocks... it's like lipstick on a pig, to me... whole nice thing about a glock is that it's cheap, it functions well, it's reliable... then you go swap everything out and add a zero to the price tag before the decimal point.. doesn't make sense given the net performance result (that I have seen, anyway) versus stock.

I also realize that .45 is a big round with a relatively long recoil impulse. A larger, heavier weapon with a solid grip by the individual manipulating it is going to negate that and let you keep repeated rounds on target. 9mm is arguably much more forgiving due to a lighter everything, and also arguably "makes up" for "needing to be accurate" with a significantly higher round count per magazine. I've got 13 rounds out the gate and 12 on the reload, putting shit where it counts is paramount.


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## HOLLiS (Apr 23, 2015)

That is the other issue ergonomics.   We all do not wear the same shoe size.    Manufactures have finally figured that out,  notice the fit kit that comes with some.  Unfortunately. my understanding that for liability reasons agencies need to stick with one flavor of side arm.  Lawyers can make a ice cream social into a miserable experience.


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## DA SWO (Apr 23, 2015)

HOLLiS said:


> That is the other issue ergonomics.   We all do not wear the same shoe size.    Manufactures have finally figured that out,  notice the fit kit that comes with some.  Unfortunately. my understanding that for liability reasons agencies need to stick with one flavor of side arm.  Lawyers can make a ice cream social into a miserable experience.


Which is why I don't shoot Glock.  The grip just doesn't work for me.
Ended up with M&P .45, but I am thinking about going back to 9MM.


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## Etype (Apr 24, 2015)

@HOLLiS, @Kettenhund,

When you switch to a higher pressure round, the only thing you need to change on most guns is the recoil spring- which will mitigate the slamming to the rear.

I'm not aware of any differences between the metal or thickness of Glock 9mm or .357 barrel.  I also haven't heard much of Glock 9mm chambers failing in USPSA where they are reloaded to meet major PF, that problem is seen more often in 9mm 1911s.


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## Kettenhund (Apr 24, 2015)

Etype, I'd gladly change out recoil springs yearly, just to be on the safe side  if we authorized +P rounds.  Recoil springs are cheap in comparison to what a bit more velocity gives you in the 9mm.  Unfortunately, that is just not going to happen for us so we use what we use to the best of our ability.

Every round we fire has a potential lawsuit attached to it so we damn well better be able to put them where they need to go. 

Hollis, I will agree that a +P or a +P+ round can do damage to an older weapon.  The approximate service life of a duty pistol is 10 years or so.  If someone wants to shoot a +P+ round out of there WW2 Hi-Power or Luger, personally I'd think that would be sheer stupidity and would attempt to prevent them form doing so.

In closing, I take offense to your insinuation of most LEO's as being "roving secretaries".  I tried to let it slide but I just can't.  I go t0 work everyday and  having the burden of bringing a weapon into every situation I'm involved in.  By your own analogy the same could be said about most military members, although I'd never have the gall to say it, let alone think it.  As a verified military member here, I'd think you'd have a bit more appreciation for what we do while you are off at war.  We keep you family safe and have no hesitation put our life on the line for strangers on a daily basis.  For the most part the average military member at war knows who the enemy is.  For LEO, we don;t have that luxury or the luxury of engaging the enemy at a distance .  Most of our enemies we can see the whites of their eyes and smell their breath while we're engaged.  I'd bet dollars to doughnuts, pun intended, that the vast majority of military members here do not share your opinion.  If I'm wrong then this is not the forum for me.


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## HOLLiS (Apr 24, 2015)

Ketten,   The roving secretary comment was made by a person who was a Deputy for the LA Sheriffs.    BTW I was in LEO.    Also later in life I had oversight of a PD.   I have known many LEOs,  COP and Sheriffs.  I have a lot of respect for the men and women who serve their community.  

When I was getting my degree in LEO and going through the academy, the stats at the time, was (probably applies to most military people too) A officer during their career will never fire their side arm.    The PF that I had oversight on,  When a officer was starting their shift they already had over 8 hours of paper work that needed to be done.   They are also over worked.   That has not changed since I was working in that field.  

One of MOSs in the Marines was 0311,  A person asked me what that was, I said Mull......   Humor never leave home without it.


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## Kettenhund (Apr 24, 2015)

Hollis,

I called you out in public so I'll apologize the same way.  I'm sorry for jumping on you but if you are going to quote someone, you need to cite the quote or it will certainly look like it originated from you. 

My sense of humor is very important to me.  While it's not on par with my credibility, it's not ranked far from it.   Without being able to laugh daily, I could not effectively do what I do.

OK, back to the FBI and their return to the 9mm.  I say Yea!!  That's not a knock on any of the other available calibers.


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## 0699 (Apr 24, 2015)

Kettenhund said:


> In closing, I take offense to your insinuation of most LEO's as being "roving secretaries".  I tried to let it slide but I just can't.  I go t0 work everyday and  *having the burden of bringing a weapon into every situation I'm involved in*.  By your own analogy the same could be said about most military members, although I'd never have the gall to say it, let alone think it.  As a verified military member here, I'd think you'd have a bit more appreciation for what we do while you are off at war.  *We keep you family safe* and *have no hesitation put our life on the line for strangers on a daily basis*.  For the most part the average military member at war knows who the enemy is.  For LEO, *we don;t have that luxury* or *the luxury of engaging the enemy at a distance* .  *Most of our enemies we can see the whites of their eyes* and *smell their breath while we're engaged*.  I'd bet dollars to doughnuts, pun intended, that the vast majority of military members here do not share your opinion.  If I'm wrong then this is not the forum for me.


 
Dude, take a deep breath and limit your Grossman reading to once a week and you'll be okay.


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## policemedic (Apr 24, 2015)

I actually agree with the roving secretary analogy.  

I'll go further than the accurate statement that the vast majority of cops never fire a shot in anger and say many never even hear one.  Truth is, especially in small towns but even in big cities many officers won't even draw their pistol in the line of duty.

None of which, by the way, impugns the honor of someone who pins on a badge.


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## HOLLiS (Apr 24, 2015)

policemedic said:


> I actually agree with the roving secretary analogy.
> 
> I'll go further than the accurate statement that the vast majority of cops never fire a shot in anger and say many never even hear one.  Truth is, especially in small towns but even in big cities many officers won't even draw their pistol in the line of duty.
> 
> None of which, by the way, impugns the honor of someone who pins on a badge.



I think this is important because the media is trying to paint cops as blood thirsty killers.   They are NOT!


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## x SF med (Apr 24, 2015)

HOLLiS said:


> I think this is important because the media is trying to paint cops as blood thirsty killers.   They are NOT!



Well, you and PM are the exceptions that prove the rule....  you are both blood thirsty killers....  Hell you even use Napalm in your BBQ.


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## HOLLiS (Apr 24, 2015)

x SF med said:


> Well, you and PM are the exceptions that prove the rule....  you are both blood thirsty killers....  Hell you even use Napalm in your BBQ.


Heck yeah,  When I want something dead, it is dead.    Nape is the ultimate BBQ...........

BTW, I hate biting into something that bites back.   My lip is still sore.


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## Kraut783 (Apr 25, 2015)

hahahaha...."Roving secretaries" I like it 



(26 year LEO here....so far)


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## Cabbage Head (Apr 30, 2015)

Started my 25th.  In patrol pointed my pistol towards many.  In swat, looked through glass at a couple.  LEO's dont put on the badge with the intent to shoot or harm anyone.   However, with their actions comes the response necessary to stop them.

Back in topic, 9mm is being looked at in an agency I know due to them consolidating into a round that all can shoot.  Currently, they allow anything 9mm to 45acp.  Plus, supply duty and training rounds.....


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## Bypass (Oct 11, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> NYPD has 10? 12? lb pulls on their triggers.
> I wonder if the same rules apply to the Mayor's PSD?


12 lb and I doubt it. Politicians always seem to think what applies to everyone else doesn't apply to them. Just my 2 cents YMMV.


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