# Running at Altitude



## Florida173 (Mar 24, 2015)

Any suggestions on quickly acclimating?  Coming from sea level to 5,000 feet is royally kicking my ass.  Needing to do the two miler in at least 17:42, and coming off about a year in a half of not doing much running because of back issues.. I should have anticipated that running comfortably again in the 16s would not cut it when jumping 5,000 feet.

Spoke with the Master Fitness Trainer here today and he suggested doing sprint intervals.  Sprinting the long stretch and jog the curves for two miles every day till about two days before.. then just some light jogging.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 24, 2015)

Sounds about right. Sprints is what got me "back to normal" when I did PT on leave, probably helped as well since I had christmas exodus to NV from GA back in ubermilnoob days.


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 25, 2015)

Fartlek (running straights, jogging curves) is good. 1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, 1 mile repeats are also good too. I try to keep my run/rest ratio under 1:1. If I sprint an 80 second 1/4 mile, I rest for 50-60 seconds, and so on...


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## pardus (Mar 25, 2015)

I don't have my notes on hand, but off the top of my head, hydrate lots, exercise lots, with a brief (couple of days, (2-3) acclimatization period beforehand). Basically, no mercy, suck it up. 

This is for fit (Military) people.


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## Brill (Mar 25, 2015)

pardus said:


> I don't have my notes on hand, but off the top of my head, hydrate lots, exercise lots, with a brief (couple of days, (2-3) acclimatization period beforehand). Basically, no mercy,* suck it up*.
> 
> This is for fit (Military) people.



X2.  Drink tea vice caffeine.  Go run "The Incline".


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## LibraryLady (Mar 25, 2015)

Hydrate, hydrate, hydrate.  If you're not accustomed to elevation changes, this is the one thing that is ignored and yet easily combatted.



lindy said:


> X2.  Drink tea vice caffeine.  Go run "The Incline".



Uh... an 11 year old test with 13 test subjects at 5345 meters?  Uh... 5000 feet only equals about 1500 meters.  And to boot if you look around, you'll see that studies show if your body is used to caffeine, changing your consumption will give you caffeine withdrawal symptoms which are extremely similiar to mild altitude sickness.  

LL


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## Brill (Mar 26, 2015)

LibraryLady said:


> Uh... an 11 year old test with 13 test subjects at 5345 meters?  Uh... 5000 feet only equals about 1500 meters.



So he can expect 3.5 times better results!


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## amorris127289 (Mar 26, 2015)

Colorado is full of out door trails, but there is an extremely short version of the incline close to the PREP school if you know where that is. It is about 200 yards of stairs rather than a million. You could use that for sprint repeats. We just went to all the park trails and ran them on our weekends. From a non-military perspective, but my major is Exercise Science with one of my minors being in Wellness, I second the previous comments and say do Fartleks. And stay off of a track and treadmill as much as possible.


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## amorris127289 (Mar 26, 2015)




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## amorris127289 (Mar 26, 2015)

Gradually increase the duration of your sprints as you become acclimated, it will allow you to maintain a faster pace (closer to your VO2 Max) for a longer duration.


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## Florida173 (Mar 27, 2015)

Been doing sprints... but holy fuck my calves are giving me trouble..

I've been pretty much trying to sprint the straights and jog the curves, but honestly can only get through a couple of laps before I end up having to walk the curves..  

I knew I was a little out of shape, but didn't think that the altitude here in Utah would give me this much issue just passing a 2mile run.  ugh I'm getting old.


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## Viper1 (Mar 27, 2015)

Hydrate and run daily. Sprints, long runs, short runs, hills. Hills is what will break you through. Nothing but water though, especially the first couple weeks.


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## pardus (Mar 27, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> Nothing but water though, especially the first couple weeks.



Important point here that Viper reminded me of. 
Gatorade (etc...) Yes it can be beneficial in certain circumstances, particularly in high sweat scenarios. However, in it's bottled form it's too strong for the body to effectively utilize.
*It should always be diluted to 50% of it's strength with water.*

This information comes from Dr Mike Stroud.


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## Florida173 (Mar 27, 2015)

Mostly been doing either just water or water with a little chia seed in it.

Doesn't really seem like hydration is my issue though, but rather that there is a fucking elephant on my chest


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## pardus (Mar 27, 2015)

Try some coca leaves


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## amorris127289 (Mar 27, 2015)

I am assuming the pain in your calves is caused by a build up of lactic acid, which commonly occured through out the body when it is not used to a typw of physical exertion. Try foam rolling or massaging of them and add some kind of bicarbonate to your diet (baking soda). The bicarbonate will help filter out the extra hydrogen molecule that is produced during exercise...which is what causes the pain.


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## Florida173 (Mar 28, 2015)

Spoke to my unit doc. He said to also get Combivent, 40mg Prednisone, and followed up by asmanex.

I've done a Pulmonary Functions Test before and have reduced lung capacity and various other asthmatic issues. Seems like I may actually have some issues from my trips to the sandbox. I'm guessing I should start the VA process... ugh.

Meanwhile.. gotta keep up with these sprints.


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## 8654Maine (Mar 28, 2015)

amorris127289 said:


> I am assuming the pain in your calves is caused by a build up of lactic acid, which commonly occured through out the body when it is not used to a typw of physical exertion. Try foam rolling or massaging of them and add some kind of bicarbonate to your diet (baking soda). The bicarbonate will help filter out the extra hydrogen molecule that is produced during exercise...which is what causes the pain.



Where did you get this idea that drinking baking soda "filters" out extra hydrogen molecule that is produced during exercise?

Lactate buildup is only one part of a complex interaction between circulation, oxygenation, cellular respiration (aerobic and anaerobic), and metabolic clearance that goes into the process of muscle cramps.

There's a big difference between oral consumption of baking soda and IV infusion of sodium bicarbonate.

@Florida173, it sounds like your doc thinks you may have obstructive or restrictive lung dz or a component of bronchospasm.  That sucks.


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## amorris127289 (Mar 28, 2015)

8654Maine said:


> Where did you get this idea that drinking baking soda "filters" out extra hydrogen molecule that is produced during exercise?
> 
> Lactate buildup is only one part of a complex interaction between circulation, oxygenation, cellular respiration (aerobic and anaerobic), and metabolic clearance that goes into the process of muscle cramps.
> 
> ...



My Advanced Exercise Physiology teacher, who is also a world class marathoner. Their are negatives to taking baking soda orally, specifically bloating.

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...e---if-it-doesnt-make-you-sick/article623582/

I just picked a random web article, a common expression on this forum is applicable here, "a simple Google search would provide the answers you seek."  But if that is not enough this next link will lead you to a very well renowned Journal for sport related studies.  http://www.jissn.com/content/7/1/7


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## amorris127289 (Mar 28, 2015)

*There


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## Florida173 (Mar 28, 2015)

8654Maine said:


> @Florida173, it sounds like your doc thinks you may have obstructive or restrictive lung dz or a component of bronchospasm. That sucks.



I definitely do.. and at sea level I've been managing with out meds. Definitely see the difference with them... just ran 2 miles at 16 on the treadmill.. do just gonna work the sprints more. Only need to pass in near term and going to work on gaining major improvement while I'm here.


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## 0699 (Mar 28, 2015)

amorris127289 said:


> My Advanced Exercise Physiology teacher, who is also a world class marathoner. Their are negatives to taking baking soda orally, specifically bloating.
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...e---if-it-doesnt-make-you-sick/article623582/
> 
> I just picked a random web article, a common expression on this forum is applicable here, "*a simple Google search would provide the answers you seek*."  But if that is not enough this next link will lead you to a very well renowned Journal for sport related studies.  http://www.jissn.com/content/7/1/7


 
How about you drop the smart ass attitude.

Fucking college kids.


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## amorris127289 (Mar 28, 2015)

0699 said:


> How about you drop the smart ass attitude.
> 
> Fucking college kids.


Yes sir.


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## amorris127289 (Mar 28, 2015)

0069 I was trying to build credibility behind my statement. 
Then returned sarcasm to where it was dealt.


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## 8654Maine (Mar 28, 2015)

amorris127289 said:


> My Advanced Exercise Physiology teacher, who is also a world class marathoner. Their are negatives to taking baking soda orally, specifically bloating.
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...e---if-it-doesnt-make-you-sick/article623582/
> 
> ...



Cool, lets debate and look at this a little closer.

It is important in any debate to look at the questions very closely.

You wrote:


amorris127289 said:


> I am assuming the pain in your calves is caused by a build up of lactic acid, which commonly occured through out the body when it is not used to a typw of physical exertion. Try foam rolling or massaging of them and add some kind of bicarbonate to your diet (baking soda). The bicarbonate will help filter out the extra hydrogen molecule that is produced during exercise...which is what causes the pain.



#1) I asked where you got this info.

Because, I really don't know what causes the pain or cramping.

In fact, this is what a review article in 2010 said as well:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/23015948.
*Exercise-associated muscle cramps: causes, treatment, and prevention.*
They reviewed articles from 1955-2008.  Their conclusion was that cramps were "due to several factors" and there is "uncertainty in their cause."  That is the latest PubMed review article for the search term "exercise muscle cramps".  It's on page 5 of 19.

So you seem to be suggesting that drinking sodium bicarbonate "filter out" extra hydrogen molecule.

Then you gave me some articles to read.

I looked at that Journal and that particular paragraph you included.  I'm glad it showed the footnotes.  At first glance, it seems pretty positive.  Then I read the footnotes.

#2)  Footnote #405: 
*Effects of chronic bicarbonate ingestion on the performance of high-intensity work*
This study did not address bicarb ingestion for pain.  It measured peak power, pH, and bicarb levels for the various study groups.  This was about drinking bicarb 5 days pre-workout.  Not acutely for muscle cramps.

#3)  Footnote #406 was not even a study.  Worthless

#4)  Footnote #407 was an article about nutritional approaches on dogs and horses.

#5)  Footnote #408 was a study:
*Effects of multibuffer supplementation on acid-base balance and 2,3-diphosphoglycerate following repetitive anaerobic exercise*
According to the abstract, it studied a supplement (with many things, including bicarb) on performance and level of serum 2,3 DPG.
Here's a direct quote from their study: "_The data indicate that this supplement does not affect acid-base status with following intense anaerobic exercise and does not improve repetitive WT performance_."

#6)  Footnote #409 was a review published in 1993 (please see #1):
*Effects of sodium bicarbonate ingestion on anaerobic performance: a meta-analytic review.*
The authors conclude that "results have been inconsistent and often contradictory."  Their abstract shows that there is alkalosis but "the treatment effect, however, was only weakly related to the degree of induced alkalosis."

Finally, #7)  Footnote #410 was a study published in 2008:
*Sodium bicarbonate improves swimming performance.*
Finally, this appears to be an interesting study.  3 things jumped out at me.
a)  Performance improved.
b)  "blood lactate concentrations were significantly higher following the SB trial compared with P and C".  That's NAHCO3 (SB), placebo and control.
c)  They used SB in gel capsules, not straight water dilutional.

Funny thing.

If one critically reads the footnotes, it really doesn't seem to support what this Journal is saying.  Granted I only looked at the abstracts.

Also, none of these address drinking sodium bicarb in water as antidotes to muscle cramping, to "filter" lactate, by which I think you mean, buffer.

This, after all, is the original question that I posed to you.

I did some original research years ago as part of my Bachelor's honor's thesis on muscle contraction, electrolytes and caffeine use and I currently dabble in health related issues somewhat, so I have some interest and experience in this.

Lastly, and the real reason that I posted here:

Many folks who aspire to greatness and to be SOF use this site for critical information.

You really should peruse your data prior to posting on here.  Giving erroneous advise or one not backed by research is just so not right.

Oh, BTW, I did use Google.


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## 8654Maine (Mar 28, 2015)

amorris127289 said:


> 0069 I was trying to build credibility behind my statement.
> Then returned sarcasm to where it was dealt.



You need to work on both.

I've been sarcassed by the best on 5/7 continents.

I had this dude tell me once that he would kill me if I didn't give him Oxy's.

Said he was some secret squirrel ex-Marine type.

Said he was gonna do some push ups prior to kicking my ass.

I then got on the floor and pushed it out with him and did 2 more, one for the Corps and one for Chesty as he lay on the floor.

I stood up and told him that my death awaited his resurrection.

You, young sir, do not know sarcasm.


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## amorris127289 (Mar 28, 2015)

He stated he was having calve problems, does that mean cramps or lactic acid build up? Are they the same? 8654Maine


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## 8654Maine (Mar 28, 2015)

I don't know the answer to that.


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## amorris127289 (Mar 28, 2015)

For all of our information. I just looked into it a little, the cramps are caused by neurological systems where as the pain MAY be caused by the lactic acid. Some articles say muscle delayed soreness is caused by lactic acid while others say it is not. If it's cramps, potassium supplements could help. If it is not cramping try baking soda, look up a drink recipe. Be aware it may upset your stomach so do not continue if this occurs.


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## pardus (Mar 28, 2015)

amorris127289 said:


> My Advanced Exercise Physiology teacher, who is also a world class marathoner. Their are negatives to taking baking soda orally, specifically bloating.
> 
> http://www.theglobeandmail.com/life...e---if-it-doesnt-make-you-sick/article623582/
> 
> ...





amorris127289 said:


> 0069 I was trying to build credibility behind my statement.
> Then returned sarcasm to where it was dealt.



Drop your smartass fucking attitude, if it returns you will be dealt with appropriately.


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 28, 2015)

You can drink all the baking soda you want. I hated running when I first started. I got bad shin splints and I was fucking slow. You know how I got over it and got faster? I ran more. I stretched and foam rolled appropriately. Then, I ran more. I hate to make it sound so simple, but there it is...


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## pardus (Mar 28, 2015)

SkrewzLoose said:


> You can drink all the baking soda you want. I hated running when I first started. I got bad shin splints and I was fucking slow. You know how I got over it and got faster? I ran more. I stretched and foam rolled appropriately. Then, I ran more. I hate to make it sound so simple, but there it is...



That can work, but not in all cases. That can make things significantly worse, depending on the condition of the shins. 
Shin splints sometimes require a rest then build up period of many weeks, along with drugs etc...
Ask me how I know :wall:


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 28, 2015)

amorris127289 said:


> For all of our information. I just looked into it a little, the cramps are caused by neurological systems where as the pain MAY be caused by the lactic acid. Some articles say muscle delayed soreness is caused by lactic acid while others say it is not. If it's cramps, potassium supplements could help. If it is not cramping try baking soda, look up a drink recipe. Be aware it may upset your stomach so do not continue if this occurs.




Here's the deal, amorris: Before you come back on this forum, or any other forum, with medical advice, spend a few more years in undergrad studies, pre-med to be specific. Take another four years for medical school, to be followed up by a residency. Pass some board exams, and get credentialed to practice medicine somewhere. Once you have done that, your will still be way behind in any professional experience in the field of medicine, to even begin to suggest 865Marine look at, read or consider anything you might suggest in the field of medicine.  You are well out of your lane.


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 28, 2015)

pardus So, run...fully recover (ice, motrin, mobilizing)...run...fully recover...etcetera until your recovery time is a day or two vice weeks or a month?


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## pardus (Mar 28, 2015)

SkrewzLoose said:


> pardus So, run...fully recover (ice, motrin, mobilizing)...run...fully recover...etcetera until your recovery time is a day or two vice weeks or a month?



My specific case was dealt with by a former Navy doc (assigned to the USMC).
When I went to see him I was so bad I couldn't lift my toes to even walk. I was sliding my feet forward like a moron. The plan I was given, and that was successful was 6 weeks no running while taking a very high Motrin dose, then a slow build up that included ice/compression packs, elevation, stretching, while continuing the high dose Motrin.
To this day I am anal about stretching my calves before I run. Haven't had it back since.


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 28, 2015)

Interesting. Sounds similar to the achilles tendinitis I developed while in my pipeline... It hurt to walk, let alone run, in soft sand, in the ocean, on the road, you get the point. Anyhow, I was told there were no stress fractures and the only way for it to heal was to "stay off of it for 2 weeks". Here's some vitamin-M, you're fit for full duty. FUCK. That's when I dropped and, no shit, 2 weeks later it was like it never happened. Now, as you said, I'm very anal about stretching my achilles and calves before I run. Ounce of prevention and all that...


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## 0699 (Mar 28, 2015)

amorris127289 said:


> 0069 I was trying to build credibility behind my statement.
> Then returned sarcasm to where it was dealt.


 
@8654Maine has done the things you aspire to do.  Until you've done them, you don't rate to be sarcastic with him.  All you rate is to be respectful.  You don't have to kiss his (or anyone else's) ass, but learn your place.  This isn't "everyone is equal Sesame Street.com"...


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## Florida173 (Mar 28, 2015)

Lots of words not worth reading in here!

Really appreciate the suggestions from everyone though


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 28, 2015)

We've had a course correction, and we're all back on track, right?


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## Brill (Mar 29, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> Lots of words not worth reading in here!
> 
> Really appreciate the suggestions from everyone though



One thing that did help me when I moved just outside Colorado Springs was "climb high, sleep low".  Each chance you get, go hiking/walking the local trails.

I lived at 7K for a few months, barely hitting that 8 min/mile for 5, before taking a APFT in Jackson, MS and did *very* well (100 pts for me is 14:06 ).


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## Short Round (Apr 26, 2015)

I'm glad I saw this thread because I actually logged on this evening to ask a similar question to the one originally posted.  I've been training on deployment at about 6k for the past six months.  I've tried to work in cardio but it is just to tempting to lift for size while I'm here and the food is free (albeit terrible).  I'm putting in a MECEP package later this year and I need to up my PFT from about a 174 to a 185, which is 100% dependent on my 3 mile time.  I've started incorporating sprints and some agility drills into my routines but I'm wondering if it will show at all when I get back to sea level to run.  Will any of this strength training at altitude have any crossover into my run time?


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## 0699 (Apr 26, 2015)

Short Round said:


> I'm glad I saw this thread because I actually logged on this evening to ask a similar question to the one originally posted.  I've been training on deployment at about 6k for the past six months.  I've tried to work in cardio but it is just to tempting to lift for size while I'm here and the food is free (albeit terrible).  I'm putting in a MECEP package later this year and *I need to up my PFT from about a 174 to a 185*, which is 100% dependent on my 3 mile time.  I've started incorporating sprints and some agility drills into my routines but I'm wondering if it will show at all when I get back to sea level to run.  Will any of this strength training at altitude have any crossover into my run time?


 
185?  Did they change the PFT?


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## Short Round (Apr 26, 2015)

Whoops!  285* Sorry its late here.


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## 0699 (Apr 26, 2015)

Short Round said:


> Whoops!  285* Sorry its late here.


 
That makes more sense.  Thank you for the clarification.


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## pardus (Apr 26, 2015)

Short Round said:


> I'm glad I saw this thread because I actually logged on this evening to ask a similar question to the one originally posted.  I've been training on deployment at about 6k for the past six months.  I've tried to work in cardio but it is just to tempting to lift for size while I'm here and the food is free (albeit terrible).  I'm putting in a MECEP package later this year and I need to up my PFT from about a 174 to a 185, which is 100% dependent on my 3 mile time.  I've started incorporating sprints and some agility drills into my routines but I'm wondering if it will show at all when I get back to sea level to run.  Will any of this strength training at altitude have any crossover into my run time?



The altitude will help with the run/cardio, honestly I'm not sure about the strength training.
I would add some Fartlek runs to your run training.


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## Short Round (Apr 26, 2015)

pardus said:


> The altitude will help with the run/cardio, honestly I'm not sure about the strength training.
> I would add some Fartlek runs to your run training.



Good to go sir.  We have a small track around one of our LZs, I may start doing Fartlek runs on that.


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## Etype (Apr 26, 2015)

Fuck running.  I would just tell those instructors or whatever that I focus on my fight mechanism, and that flight is for birds and pussies.

I would also tell them that if they want me to run, they need to call it chasing, because I don't run from anything.


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## amlove21 (Apr 26, 2015)

Etype said:


> Fuck running.  I would just tell those instructors or whatever that I focus on my fight mechanism, and that flight is for birds and pussies.
> 
> I would also tell them that if they want me to run, they need to call it chasing, because I don't run from anything.


DID WE JUST BECOME BSET FRIENDS?! YEP.

Running breeds cowardice. As far as I can tell, we aren't involved in foot races with the enemy for freedom. 

Fuck runnin times two. PS, I lol'd at "flight is for birds and pussies". Fucking instant classic.


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