# Gun stuff



## AssadUSMC (Mar 28, 2009)

I am pretty knowledgable, but I have immense respect for the opinions on this board.  With that said, what are your feelings on the following firearms (pieces I plan on picking up over the next few months - gotta love TDY money):

Kimber Desert Warrior

LWRC M6A2

LMT piston carbine

M1A SOCOM 16

(I'll get ONE of the rifles, but any of them sound good)

I plan on EO-Teching the rifle and not much else.  If I get the M1A, I might put that new Schmidt und Bender on it...


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## Polar Bear (Mar 28, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> I am pretty knowledgable, but I have immense respect for the opinions on this board. With that said, what are your feelings on the following firearms (pieces I plan on picking up over the next few months - gotta love TDY money):
> 
> Kimber Desert Warrior
> 
> ...


 
Is the M1A for show or shooting?


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## AssadUSMC (Mar 28, 2009)

All of them are for shooting... I don't buy guns for show.  I do enjoy a little gun porn, though...  I just want something handy, accurate, reliable.


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## Polar Bear (Mar 28, 2009)

I have *heard* (not shot) the SOCOM is neither handy or accurate (long range). Look at the Scout. I am trying to decide myself between the Scout and or Standard


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## AssadUSMC (Mar 28, 2009)

I've looked at the Scout and the SOCOM II as well.  The SOCOM II is too damn heavy... I might go for the Scout - good call.  I am also going to ask some guys who've figured out how to do a 200m zero with the EO-Tech.  RB knows the guys I'm referring to.  Any input on that is welcome, too.

Thanks, PB.


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## HOLLiS (Mar 28, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> I've looked at the Scout and the SOCOM II as well.  The SOCOM II is too damn heavy... I might go for the Scout - good call.  I am also going to ask some guys who've figured out how to do a 200m zero with the EO-Tech.  RB knows the guys I'm referring to.  Any input on that is welcome, too.
> 
> Thanks, PB.



Heavy is a factor in a M1A.........  Look at magazines loaded.  Compare to a M4 or variants, M1A is just gonna be heavy. I have a M1A1 and traded off my Socom 16,  I like the full meal deal version better, if for any reason I was potty trained on that one.  I also have a AR10 w/16 barrel. 

I would decide on what I want to use it for and let that be my reasons for buying one over the other.  

There are always issues,  Cost, recoil, weight, fun factor, etc.  No one firearm does it all.  Neat thing is, we can own more than one.


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## WillBrink (Mar 28, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> I am pretty knowledgable, but I have immense respect for the opinions on this board.  With that said, what are your feelings on the following firearms (pieces I plan on picking up over the next few months - gotta love TDY money):
> 
> Kimber Desert Warrior
> 
> ...



I can only comment one gun in the list. I would not ever trust my life to a Kimber, and there are far better 1911s out there in the price range. Among the truly knowledgeable out there about the fighting 1911 (Vickers, Yam, etc) none are fans of Kimber products. Yes, others will say otherwise, and that's fine, but you asked. :2c:


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## 8'Duece (Mar 28, 2009)

I personally never saw the utility in an 16" .308 Winchester.  That's just me.

ASSADUSMC:

If it where me I'd go with the LWRC or the LMT piston. 

You can purchase the LMT Defender lower with the two stage trigger or the single stage and with the SOPMOD stock then pin the LMT MRP piston driven right on top.  Probably the finest AR's on the market, unless your a total Colt fan. 

Just my humble opinion. 

I don't like anything Kimber, but if you do then by all means get the Desert Warrior or Warrior.  It's a series 70 pistol with the extras.  It's the only Kimber that seems to run without the need to have an armorer in your kit bag.


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## AssadUSMC (Mar 28, 2009)

Thanks for the input guys... I only mentioned the M1A since I have some experience with M14 types and the M1A is more likely to be available these days.

My #1 choice is the piston AR (LWRC and LMT are the two top-recommended versions).  I'll keep searching!  Thanks.


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## Polar Bear (Mar 28, 2009)

Listen asshole get the Scout so you can give me some feedback :)


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## HOLLiS (Mar 28, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> I personally never saw the utility in an 16" .308 Winchester.  That's just me.



You really need to attend my son's Zombie Eradication Course.  .308 has a great melon misting potential than smaller calibers.  Once you mist the Zombie's melon, they are no longer a threat. ;)


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## 08steeda (Mar 28, 2009)

I have a M1A - Super Match and do love it! But it is way heavy and I got it with the intent to learn how to shoot longer distances. 

If you don't have an M-4 or AR variant then I would always start there first! Primarily because it is easy to get pieces and parts for. 

I can tell you since the latest efforts in Iraq and Afghanistan there are NO M1A aftermarket gear around. Forget things like A.R.M.S. Scope mounts/Rings for the M1A etc! Some of it is becoming available again but it is rare.

Plus 5.56 and .223 ammo is more available than .308. 

The SOCOM II is fricking amazing weapon. I have shot both the Scout and the SOCOM II recently and compared them to my Super Match. I AM A HUGE FAN OF ANYTHING SPRINGFIELD!!!! Plus 7.62 is a great round!

I like what I have heard from other about the LWRC and LMT pistons. I am looking for one as both my AR's are GAS.

WILL - I know some real lovers of Kimber and I wonder why you would make a statement like that? Is this just pure gut thing or do you have any fact to back that statement up? Not trying to start a flame war just curious! :uhh:


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## 08steeda (Mar 28, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> I can only comment one gun in the list. I would not ever trust my life to a Kimber, and there are far better 1911s out there in the price range. Among the truly knowledgeable out there about the fighting 1911 (Vickers, Yam, etc) none are fans of Kimber products. Yes, others will say otherwise, and that's fine, but you asked. :2c:


 
My brother is a huge fan and has never had a single issue with the 4 or 5 he owns. And he is a heavey IDPA shooter.

Can you point me to your sources of information?

I am curious now!


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## HOLLiS (Mar 28, 2009)

I have been seeing M1A1 accessories.   Sportsmansguide, Cheaper than dirt, and some others.  Probably like about anything right now with panic, timing is everything.


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## koz (Mar 28, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> I personally never saw the utility in an 16" .308 Winchester.  That's just me.



With my numbers - Mk262 5.56 round at 500m has 428 ft-lbs of energy and traveling at approx 1582 fps - That was 3000fps out of an 18" barrel.  Even though BH says 2650fps out of the barrel.  

The 168 SMK 308 out of a 16" barrel;  at 500m has 888 ft-lbs of energy and 1543 fps.  At 800m it gets similar to the mk262 (at 500m) with 482 ft-lbs and 1137fps.  Out of the barrel at 2500fps.  

The guys at Larue have popped plates out to 1000yrs with their OSR and I've shot plates out to 600m with a 14.5" POF-308.  IMO the 16" 308 is a great recce gun.  

Assad- have you thought about the DPMS/SR/Larue/POF style 308?  With Magpul bringing their pmag to the table, it could be a good option.  

Like Steeda said - if you don't have a AR platform - start there first.  I'd also put the pistol low on the list.  IF a ban comes, the 1911 may have a chance of not getting listed since it is below the "mean 10 rd magazine" and it's not a "dirty assault weapon" that is being shipped to Mexico...

The LWRC lists for $2500 but is on Snipercountry PX for $2145 - of course they're out of stock.
On BravoCo's site - the cost for the LMT upper is $1500.  You can probably get a good complete lower and stock for $400 or so.  

LMT make quality stuff and I've not heard anything bad about the LWRC.  Honestly between the two it comes to personal preference and availability.  Personally I like the LMT over the LWRC but that just personal preference.


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## 8'Duece (Mar 28, 2009)

koz said:


> With my numbers - Mk262 5.56 round at 500m has 428 ft-lbs of energy and traveling at approx 1582 fps - That was 3000fps out of an 18" barrel.  Even though BH says 2650fps out of the barrel.
> 
> The 168 SMK 308 out of a 16" barrel;  at 500m has 888 ft-lbs of energy and 1543 fps.  At 800m it gets similar to the mk262 (at 500m) with 482 ft-lbs and 1137fps.  Out of the barrel at 2500fps.
> 
> ...



Well, I can't argue with those numbers, but then again I'm just thinking from the Old School of barrel length and old ammunition. 

I forget what kind of barrel is in the LaRue OSR but it's one of the best and I've heard great things about their new release of this particular rifle.  I wouldn't mind having one when they finally start shipping them. 

Everything else I can see we agree on.   Thanks for the head split on the numbers. :doh:  I like the Mk262 ammunition for my Les Baer AR but getting a supply of it is like waiting for a virgin to want to lay me at this old age. :cool:

Thanks for the clarification.  I'm not a high speed long range guy.


ETA:  Are those number at the muzzle or the target distances that you mentioned with the LaRue OSR  ???


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## 7point62 (Mar 28, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> You really need to attend my son's Zombie Eradication Course.  .308 has a great melon misting potential than smaller calibers.  Once you mist the Zombie's melon, they are no longer a threat. ;)



God dam ain't that the truth.


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## 8'Duece (Mar 28, 2009)

7point62 said:


> God dam ain't that the truth.




Damn, you guy's are choppin me up to bits.......................:doh:


Ok, maybe I need to rethink my choice of ammo and barrel length. :eek:


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## HOLLiS (Mar 28, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> Damn, you guy's are choppin me up to bits.......................:doh:
> 
> 
> Ok, maybe I need to rethink my choice of ammo and barrel length. :eek:



Or buy several to be safe.        Like golf clubs, a person needs more than one to play the PGA.


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## 8'Duece (Mar 28, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> Or buy several to be safe.        Like golf clubs, a person needs more than one to play the PGA.



You've got all the neat shit, will you sell it to me so I can have a "full bag of clubs?"   :cool:


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## HOLLiS (Mar 28, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> You've got all the neat shit, will you sell it to me so I can have a "full bag of clubs?"   :cool:




Hey, I went through the ZEC that my son teaches,   Sorry Bro.   This is also a big reason why we have not been attacked by Zombies.


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## doorkicker (Mar 28, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> I am pretty knowledgable, but I have immense respect for the opinions on this board.  With that said, what are your feelings on the following firearms (pieces I plan on picking up over the next few months - gotta love TDY money):
> 
> Kimber Desert Warrior
> 
> ...


Kimber is good to go, but I'd recommend just getting a Custom TLE II vs the Desert Warrior...paying a whole lot for a rail you have to ask yourself if you really need...and you can refinish a TLE in FDE if you wanted to.





Bottom SBR is a LWRC M6A2 and it runs like a champ and is pretty managable per cleaning when shooting suppressed.

For the most part all of the other M4s are LMT, but direct impingement not piston.  Only reason I'd recommend LWRC vs. LMTs piston....is because 12.5" is the shortest length that LMT makes their piston guns...I like 10.5's

Nothing wrong with the M1A SOCOM...but I'd pick up an AR10 instead.



AssadUSMC said:


> I plan on EO-Teching the rifle and not much else.


Better plan on getting some BUISs for whatever blaster you end up getting...all things battery operated do go tits up at the most inoportune times. :doh:


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## AssadUSMC (Mar 28, 2009)

doorkicker said:


> For the most part all of the other M4s are LMT, but direct impingement not piston.  Only reason I'd recommend LWRC vs. LMTs piston....is because 12.5" is the shortest length that LMT makes their piston guns...I like 10.5's



I don't want to register an SBR, so a 14.7 LWRC is as short as I'll go.  We get 10" 416s at work, but I don't get to bring those home.



> Nothing wrong with the M1A SOCOM...but I'd pick up an AR10 instead.



My partiality to the M14 platform is just because I like the way they handle and shoot.  I've fired SR-25s and I like them, too.  Obviously, the AR-type ergonomics are embedded in my muscle memory. Kill or drill, baby.



> Better plan on getting some BUISs for whatever blaster you end up getting...all things battery operated do go tits up at the most inoportune times. :doh:



For sure.  I always carry spare lithiums for my EO-Tech and Surefire (makes it convenient and they aren't fiddly like the CR223s).  BUIS is a must on any optics gun IMO.

The guns I'm looking at are for personal use, random plinking, etc.  I'm not a subscriber to the "govt is coming for you/zombies/SHTF" theories.  I want them for a mix of "have my own" and "like gun porn".

I appreciate the input!!


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## HOLLiS (Mar 28, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> I'm not a subscriber to the "zombies" theories.  I want them for a mix of "have my own" and "like gun porn".
> 
> I appreciate the input!!




I hate to break this to you, your the one the Zombies will get first.  

I like gun porn too.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Mar 28, 2009)

Own a desert warrior, good gun but a bit heavy for my taste (and several others Marines I work with also commented on this). Planning on switching over to either a glock 21 or sig p220. Own and love my M4 with a eotech and railing....would love to get a SA58OSW....anyone have any experience with this one? 

~JohnnyBoy


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 28, 2009)

DoorKicker is spot on with the TLE II and the AR10. As for AR uppers, it really depends on how much you are going to use it. If you are talking 200 rounds a weekend I would just go with direct impingement, if you are going to be shooting 500+ rounds a week then get a piston upper from who ever. LWRC also has the piston kits I believe?

SBR is anything under 16 inches, so why would you go 14.7?

I am a M14 guy, not big on the shorty's. I would go with the NM from Springfield, matched up with some 175gr Match  ammo you are killing shit at 1000 yards ;)


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## koz (Mar 29, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> Well, I can't argue with those numbers, but then again I'm just thinking from the Old School of barrel length and old ammunition.
> 
> I forget what kind of barrel is in the LaRue OSR but it's one of the best and I've heard great things about their new release of this particular rifle.  I wouldn't mind having one when they finally start shipping them.
> 
> ...




The 16" barrel at the muzzle is 2500fps with energy of 2331 ft-lbs. 

 I felt the same way about anything under 18" until I saw the numbers from the chrono and the ballistic calc...


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## doorkicker (Mar 29, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> As for AR uppers, it really depends on how much you are going to use it. If you are talking 200 rounds a weekend I would just go with direct impingement, if you are going to be shooting 500+ rounds a week then get a piston upper from who ever


I think it really depends on its intended use, if you are shooting suppressed it's a no brainer get a piston...otherwise you're probably fine with a DI gas-gun.  If you are concerned with major carbon build-up/etc. I highly recommend getting a chrome BCG...they are incredible when clean-up time rolls around 



J.A.B. said:


> . LWRC also has the piston kits I believe?


LWRC, PWS, ARIES and a few others offer kits.



J.A.B. said:


> SBR is anything under 16 inches, so why would you go 14.7?


Buy a 14.7" upper and perm. affix whatever FH and you skate just over 16" making it legal since the FH essentially becomes part of the barrel (according to BATF/NFA anyways).  All of the LMTs in my pic are 14.5" uppers with perm. attached SDS "birdcage FH'drs equaling 16.1":cool:


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 29, 2009)

doorkicker said:


> I think it really depends on its intended use, if you are shooting suppressed it's a no brainer get a piston...otherwise you're probably fine with a DI gas-gun.  If you are concerned with major carbon build-up/etc. I highly recommend getting a chrome BCG...they are incredible when clean-up time rolls around



Well you now how I feel about suppressers 

When I am looking for long hall, meaning round count before re barreling. I will go gas impingement b/c the less pitting and wear on the gas port. When I want high round count before functioning is diminished I want a piston upper b/c I gas is not be blown back into my bolt. 

Personally I prefer gas impingement over pistons for something such as an SDMR or mid range platform. However if it’s going to be a room broom that will get treated like the whore it is, I will want the gas piston over the gas impingement.


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## CBTech (Mar 29, 2009)

doorkicker said:


> Buy a 14.7" upper and perm. affix whatever FH and you skate just over 16" making it legal since the FH essentially becomes part of the barrel (according to BATF/NFA anyways).  All of the LMTs in my pic are 14.5" uppers with perm. attached SDS "birdcage FH'drs equaling 16.1":cool:



Make sure you have the gas block you want on there first. I would go with a gas block with a picatinny at least on top for BUIS over the A2 fs in case you ever wanted to use optics that didn't co-witness.

BTW, anyone know where I could start on getting an SBR? I don't mind registering it because they know you have it anyway if you got a background done. They don't throw your info away. The question is if they would have the balls to go to your house and try to take your shit. I plan on getting a Surefire supressor and SBR. Both warrant a registration. I need info on where you pay the $209 tax? I am assuming it is to the mfg of suppressor or SBR? 
Also, where do you get the fingerprint cards? Any LE office or agency?

Please PM me if you have a link to a form.


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## WillBrink (Mar 29, 2009)

doorkicker said:


> Kimber is good to go, but I'd recommend just getting a Custom TLE II vs the Desert Warrior...paying a whole lot for a rail you have to ask yourself if you really need...and you can refinish a TLE in FDE if you wanted to.



If interested, here's what Hilton Yam has to say on the TLE II:

"Given their designation suffix of "II", it would indicate that they have the Series II firing pin safety. Being very familiar with a batch of kimbers made especially for a large metropolitan SWAT team, I can say that no extra effort is made to "beef up" anything for duty use. These guns all had loose plunger tubes, loose sights, improperly cut feed ramps, and a host of other issues that made them more like "Kit, 1911 Parts - Some Assembly Required" and far from heavy duty. "

From the 10-8 forums:

http://www.10-8forums.com/ubbthread...661&Words=kimber&topic=&Search=true#Post80170


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## pardus (Mar 29, 2009)

JohnnyBoyUSMC said:


> ...would love to get a SA58OSW....anyone have any experience with this one?
> 
> ~JohnnyBoy



Ive used and own the original, full length rifles, they are second to none!

Excellent rifles!

From what I hear DSA makes a better rifle than FN did :2c:

http://www.dsarms.com/prodinfo.asp?number=SA58OSW



doorkicker said:


> Buy a 14.7" upper and perm. affix whatever FH and you skate just over 16" making it legal since the FH essentially becomes part of the barrel (according to BATF/NFA anyways).  All of the LMTs in my pic are 14.5" uppers with perm. attached SDS "birdcage FH'drs equaling 16.1":cool:



Can someone explain the math to me?
Makes zero sense at all to me!

Get a shorter, ballisticly inferior barrel and add some shit on the end to make it the same length as a superior barrel? :uhh: 
Why not just get the 16" in the first place? :confused:


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## HOLLiS (Mar 29, 2009)

pardus said:


> Can someone explain the math to me?
> Makes zero sense at all to me!
> 
> Get a shorter, ballisticly inferior barrel and add some shit on the end to make it the same length as a superior barrel? :uhh:
> Why not just get the 16" in the first place? :confused:



For a Non-NFA SBR length is 16 inch.   It can be a combination of lengths, so to speak.    Example a 14.5" barrel + 1.5"Flash hider = 16 inch.  The key, is that the FH has to be permanently attached.  If the FH is removable then the Barrel length is 14.5 and falls under NFA.   

Any barrel extender can be used, a false suppressor, false muzzle, etc, again the trick it, it has to be permanently attached, so that combine length is over 16 inches.


Side note for CQC, ballistics difference in 14.5 - 20 is really not a issue.   My Shorty is a 7.5 inch barrel.........


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## pardus (Mar 29, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> For a Non-NFA SBR length is 16 inch.   It can be a combination of lengths, so to speak.    Example a 14.5" barrel + 1.5"Flash hider = 16 inch.  The key, is that the FH has to be permanently attached.  If the FH is removable then the Barrel length is 14.5 and falls under NFA.
> 
> Any barrel extender can be used, a false suppressor, false muzzle, etc, again the trick it, it has to be permanently attached, so that combine length is over 16 inches.



I understand the laws just not the application.

If you have to have a 16" 'barrel' why not use the 16" as a barrel instead of a 14" (for arguments sake) barrel and 2" of window dressing?



HOLLiS said:


> Side note for CQC, ballistics difference in 14.5 - 20 is really not a issue.   My Shorty is a 7.5 inch barrel.........



Really? It was my understanding there is a huge difference in ballistics/velocity between a 14.5 and a 20" barrel (in an AR platform), resulting in significant reduction in terminal ballistics for the 5.56. :confused:


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## HOLLiS (Mar 29, 2009)

pardus said:


> I understand the laws just not the application.
> 
> If you have to have a 16" 'barrel' why not use the 16" as a barrel instead of a 14" (for arguments sake) barrel and 2" of window dressing?
> 
> ...



On ballistics, I think it is a range issue.  Longer range, longer barrel.  When looking at barrel lengths, look at retained muzzle energy.  As long as you don't exceed the range where retained muzzle energy is insufficient, then it is all moot.

Also some of the teams use sound suppressors, so your 16 in barrel now sticks out there to 22 inches.   Everything is a trade off of pros and cons.  Welding a long firearm in close quarters can add to the excitement. 

Also look at pistols and their barrel lengths.   

I never crony-ed my 7.5, I should do that.  I think of it as more a pistol than long range shooter. 

I think it gets back to what the firearm will be used for.  A SBR, as long as it is operated in the range that it is effective is GTG.  Also shorter rifles are used where space is cramp for storage, like personal weapons for a tanker.  Rifles, for most people are easier to use effectively than pistols. So a Collapsible stock SBR does have a use.  


For civilian consumption...........  IMHO, it is all for S&G.


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## doorkicker (Mar 29, 2009)

CBTech said:


> 1. BTW, anyone know where I could start on getting an SBR?
> 2. The question is if they would have the balls to go to your house and try to take your shit.
> 3. I plan on getting a Surefire supressor and SBR. Both warrant a registration.
> 4. I need info on where you pay the $209 tax? I am assuming it is to the mfg of suppressor or SBR?
> ...


1. First you need to check your State laws and make sure that SBRs are legal.
 - Then you need to find out if your CLEO (Chief Law Enforcement Officer) will even sign off on  Form 1 (a lot don't).
 - If the CLEO will not sign off, then you can form an LLC or a Trust.
2. Yes, see "Ruby Ridge" http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruby_Ridge
3. SBR paperwork is a Form 1...Suppressor paperwork is a Form 4.  You would do your own Form 1, your dealer should do your Form 4
 - Why a Surefire can...their are plenty of better cans out there that are cheaper.
4. No, the $200 tax stamp is payable to NFA (National Firearms Act) branch of the BATF...you can find the payment info for the stamp on the top right hand corner of the Form 1/4.  You are paying the Fed.Gov a $200 tax, not the Manufacturer.
5. Your local PD, if you live in a _modern_ city get digital prints done...their is less likelyhood of them being rejected as unreadable and they cost around $10 bucks.

*This site has all the forms you will need: http://titleii.com/TitleII.com/Forms.html

Form 1 is easy to complete and looks like this:


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## doorkicker (Mar 29, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> If interested, here's what Hilton Yam has to say on the TLE II:
> 
> "Given their designation suffix of "II", it would indicate that they have the Series II firing pin safety. Being very familiar with a batch of kimbers made especially for a large metropolitan SWAT team, I can say that no extra effort is made to "beef up" anything for duty use. These guns all had loose plunger tubes, loose sights, improperly cut feed ramps, and a host of other issues that made them more like "Kit, 1911 Parts - Some Assembly Required" and far from heavy duty. "
> 
> ...



Interesting read, yet doesn't LAPD continue to use the TLE II?  I've had 2 of them without ever experiencing a failure...maybe I'm lucky? 



pardus said:


> Can someone explain the math to me?
> Makes zero sense at all to me!
> 
> Get a shorter, ballisticly inferior barrel and add some shit on the end to make it the same length as a superior barrel? :uhh:
> Why not just get the 16" in the first place? :confused:


Some people like to keep their M4'geries as close to spec as possible.
My $0.02


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## pardus (Mar 29, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> On ballistics, I think it is a range issue.  Longer range, longer barrel.  When looking at barrel lengths, look at retained muzzle energy.  As long as you don't exceed the range where retained muzzle energy is insufficient, then it is all moot.


 
It's my understanding that with the 14.5" barrel the 5.56 doesn't achieve the high velocity that it was designed to achieve and therefore the bullet on impact doesn't perform as it was designed to perform thereby reducing it's effectiveness.



HOLLiS said:


> Also some of the teams use sound suppressors, so your 16 in barrel now sticks out there to 22 inches.   Everything is a trade off of pros and cons.  Welding a long firearm in close quarters can add to the excitement.
> 
> Also look at pistols and their barrel lengths.
> 
> ...



Absolutely agree r.e. the suppresor.

I Still think it's silly to falsely lengthen the barrel for zero gain but that just my opinion. I don't like short barrels anyway. :2c:

If it's a solely CQB weapon then short barrel is obviously the way to go.


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## doorkicker (Mar 29, 2009)

If you are really looking for accuracy (1moa and better) from an M16 family platform...I think you would be hard pressed to find a better solution than the 18" barreled MK12 MOD 0/1...even suppressed it's length is unobtrussive.


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## HOLLiS (Mar 29, 2009)

doorkicker said:


> If you are really looking for accuracy (1moa and better) from an M16 family platform...I think you would be hard pressed to find a better solution than the 18" barreled MK12 MOD 0/1...even suppressed it's length is unobtrussive.



That is a nice looking AR.


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## pardus (Mar 29, 2009)

doorkicker said:


> If you are really looking for accuracy (1moa and better) from an M16 family platform...I think you would be hard pressed to find a better solution than the 18" barreled MK12 MOD 0/1...even suppressed it's length is unobtrussive.



Very nice, what kind of effective range are we talking?


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## doorkicker (Mar 29, 2009)

I only feed it MK262 (77gr BH) and occassionally 80gr'ners.
I haven't taken it past 500m, but I am smashing clay pigeons at that range.

Here is a video of a buddy banging 12x18 piece of AR500 steel at 700 with his SPR (ignore the music) 

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3K6aw8Cf-tI"]YouTube - MK12 Mod 0 Suppressed[/ame]

Someone mentioned earlier the ballistics between the 168gr/.308 being similiar to 77gr/5.56 and they are spot on, my BDC on my M3 is 168/.308 and it tracks 77gr great.


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## HOLLiS (Mar 29, 2009)

doorkicker said:


> Someone mentioned earlier the ballistics between the 168gr/.308 being similiar to 77gr/5.56 and they are spot on, my BDC on my M3 is 168/.308 and it tracks 77gr great.



I would be curious if you have the Ballistic coefficients for each bullet and velocity.   I have a ballistic calculator some wheres.  Be fun to run it through it, if I can find the calculator.


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## CBTech (Mar 29, 2009)

pardus said:


> Ive used and own the original, full length rifles, they are second to none!
> 
> Excellent rifles!
> 
> ...



Your 16 inch guns out there are actually 17.5" with the flash hider. If you get a rifle with a barrel of 14.5" then when you put a flash hider on it it becomes a "16 inch" legal gun. However, you then have to permanantly affix a flash hider so that you never fall sub legal inch req.s for barrel length. 

I don't think the 14.5 barrel thing is worth it because you are locked in to whatever front sight you have on there because you can't slide it of with a permanatly attached flas hider. 

I think if you are interested in short barrels it is worth it to just buy a SBR and pay the extra few hundred and pay the $200 tax to get the real shorty, 10.5".


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## pardus (Mar 29, 2009)

CBTech said:


> Your 16 inch guns out there are actually 17.5" with the flash hider. If you get a rifle with a barrel of 14.5" then when you put a flash hider on it it becomes a "16 inch" legal gun. However, you then have to permanantly affix a flash hider so that you never fall sub legal inch req.s for barrel length.
> 
> I don't think the 14.5 barrel thing is worth it because you are locked in to whatever front sight you have on there because you can't slide it of with a permanatly attached flas hider.
> 
> I think if you are interested in short barrels it is worth it to just buy a SBR and pay the extra few hundred and pay the $200 tax to get the real shorty, 10.5".



Good points.



HOLLiS said:


> I would be curious if you have the Ballistic coefficients for each bullet and velocity.   I have a ballistic calculator some wheres.  Be fun to run it through it, if I can find the calculator.



I would be very interested in that info too.


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## CBTech (Mar 29, 2009)

Thanks for the info Doorkicker


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## doorkicker (Mar 29, 2009)

CBTech said:


> Your 16 inch guns out there are actually 17.5" with the flash hider. If you get a rifle with a barrel of 14.5" then when you put a flash hider on it it becomes a "16 inch" legal gun. However, you then have to permanantly affix a flash hider so that you never fall sub legal inch req.s for barrel length.
> 
> *I don't think the 14.5 barrel thing is worth it because you are locked in to whatever front sight you have on there because you can't slide it of with a permanatly attached flas hider.*
> 
> I think if you are interested in short barrels it is worth it to just buy a SBR and pay the extra few hundred and pay the $200 tax to get the real shorty, 10.5".


Do it right the first time and get an LMT MRP...barrel swaps take about 15 seconds...:eek:  You're welcome.




I'll see what data I can dig up Hollis


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## AssadUSMC (Mar 29, 2009)

Thanks again - let me clarify (again) ;)

These guns are STRICTLY for personal enjoyment and finger-f#$king.  I get issued good stuff at work for the real deal (416 or Colt M4, Glocks).  I am instructor for my organization, so I get lots of free plinking time when I'm at the range.

I am looking @ piston guns because of the maintenance/durability/functionality aspects.  I am not and will never be a 1000-yd shooter, so I don't kid myself.  Realistically, the only targets I'll be "engaging" with this piece will be the odd can or piece of fruit at 200m (hence the EO-Tech and not an ACOG or other magnified optic).

I have heard good and bad about Kimbers, but then I've heard the same thing about H&K, Glock, SIG, etc. - all guns I've had GREAT (i.e. PERFECT) experiences with.

Please keep up the banter, but don't get too serious on my behalf.


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## AssadUSMC (Mar 29, 2009)

doorkicker said:


> Do it right the first time and get an LMT MRP...barrel swaps take about 15 seconds...:eek:  You're welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That's a great rig right there - what's the breakdown, DK (lower, stock, etc.)?


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## doorkicker (Mar 29, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> That's a great rig right there - what's the breakdown, DK (lower, stock, etc.)?


POF 0-1-FA Lower
LMT MRP upper
Magpul UBR stock
Magpul front/rear BUIS
10.5" barrel with QD suppressor mount
14.5" barrel with Phantom FH
Chrome BCG
PRI M83 Gas Buster CH
Larue EOtech riser
EOtech 551
Tango Down grip

It's a DI gun, but LMT is selling the kit to convert to piston.


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## AssadUSMC (Mar 29, 2009)

Thanks for that.  I might have to emulate you if I can't dig up a piston gun.  I trust LMT's products 100% and an MRP will be easier to get.

Just a sample of what I get to "play with" at work :)


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## pardus (Mar 29, 2009)

doorkicker said:


> Do it right the first time and get an LMT MRP...barrel swaps take about 15 seconds...:eek:  You're welcome.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



That is very cool!


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## koz (Mar 29, 2009)

The BC's I got off of Sierra's page.  The first ballistic calculator I used was on my phone.  This one is from www.handloads.com/calc/  The FPS from the barrel are ones I've chrony'd using both handloads and factory loads.  

www.sierrabullets.com/index.cfm?section=bullets&page=bc&bullettype=0

MK262 / 77gr HPBT Matchking Cannelured   - 
Inputs - 77gr, velocity 3000fps, Ball coef - .362, Alt - 0, Zero - 100

Energy & FPS @ Dist - Drop 
1539, 3000, 0 , 0 
1055, 2484, 200yds, 9.23 
707, 2033, 400yds, 41.4
521, 1827, 500yds, 69.39


MK 262 
Inputs same except velocity 2500fps
Energy & FPS @ Dist    Drop
1069, 2500,       0,     0
713,    2042,   200yds , 13.31
462,  1644,   400yds, 60.63
370, 1471, 500yds, 102

Sierra Match King 168gr HPBT
Inputs= 168gr, Velocity 2400 fps from a 16" barrel, Ball Coef .447, 

Energy & FPS  @ Dist,  Drop
2149, 2400, 0 , 0 
1545, 2035, 200yds, 14.06, 
1091, 1710, 400yds, 62.17
911, 1563. 500yds, 103.17


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 29, 2009)

WillBrink said:


> If interested, here's what Hilton Yam has to say on the TLE II:
> 
> "Given their designation suffix of "II", it would indicate that they have the Series II firing pin safety. Being very familiar with a batch of kimbers made especially for a large metropolitan SWAT team, I can say that no extra effort is made to "beef up" anything for duty use. These guns all had loose plunger tubes, loose sights, improperly cut feed ramps, and a host of other issues that made them more like "Kit, 1911 Parts - Some Assembly Required" and far from heavy duty. "
> 
> ...




Wow, my buddies department carry the TLE custom II’s and they have nothing but great things to say about them. To be honest every Kimber I have picked up as been dead nuts on and a very well put together 1911. I was actually planning on picking up a TLE II next week and I am damn sure not spending that kind of money on crap.

I guess I will have to do some video’s on it’s performance at the range, so we can see if Kimber was just fucking with LAPD


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## pardus (Mar 29, 2009)

Thanks koz!

Ive used a Kimber a couple of times for whatever reason I didn't like it.
I prefered the Colt 1911A1's Ive used. :2c:

Particularly a National Match, Gold Cup, series 70... slobber, drool...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 29, 2009)

doorkicker said:


> If you are really looking for accuracy (1moa and better) from an M16 family platform...I think you would be hard pressed to find a better solution than the 18" barreled MK12 MOD 0/1...even suppressed it's length is unobtrussive.



I would not leave out a NM (SDMR) with 1/8 twist @ 20" barrel, You will get a little more out of it at 500 to 700 yards with 77's & 80's.


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## HOLLiS (Mar 30, 2009)

I chronied my 7.5 inch AR and 16 inch one.  Difference with the Military ss109 bullet was about 700 FPS,   2953 for the 16 inch barrel.  
   2286 for the 7.5 barrel.    About a 700 FPS difference.


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## pardus (Mar 30, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> I chronied my 7.5 inch AR and 16 inch one.  Difference with the Military ss109 bullet was about 700 FPS,   2953 for the 16 inch barrel.
> 2286 for the 7.5 barrel.    About a 700 FPS difference.



Big difference, but like you say, a barrel that long isn't going to be used for taking shots at 300m, I hope not anyway lol


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## Centermass (Mar 30, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> Thanks for that.  I might have to emulate you if I can't dig up a piston gun.  I trust LMT's products 100% and an MRP will be easier to get.
> 
> Just a sample of what I get to "play with" at work :)



Nice PDW. MP7?

Some guys have all the fun.......


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## WillBrink (Mar 30, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> Wow, my buddies department carry the TLE custom II’s and they have nothing but great things to say about them. To be honest every Kimber I have picked up as been dead nuts on and a very well put together 1911. I was actually planning on picking up a TLE II next week and I am damn sure not spending that kind of money on crap.
> 
> I guess I will have to do some video’s on it’s performance at the range, so we can see if Kimber was just fucking with LAPD



All I can say is, speak to the people who truly have the creds as to what makes a "going to war" quality 1911 (Yam, Vicker, etc), and Kimber will not be on that list. Were I going to spend around what the TLE costs, an SA TRP up to SA pro would be my choice hands down, and I don't own any SA guns as of yet. Had I not gotten the SnW Custom 1911 for the $$$ I did, would have gone the SA route. Gun manufacturers, as you know, make deals with various depts, etc to supply in return for some bragging rights in their ads, so costs, politics, etc, etc often plays a much larger roll as to what X group ends up with. I'm not claiming to creds to be an authority on this topic, but I have done the homework via those that are, and can only direct you in their direction. Yam is a friendly guy generally happy to converse with people, and is one of, if not the, most respected 1911 smith (and an FBI agent I recall) in the biz, bar none. 

BTW, due to the fire pin safety system in my S&Ws, it's a range/IDPA/course gun, not a CCW/combat gun. Kimber has the same system in it (see Yam's comments above) and by all accounts, S&Ws system has been better vetted out, as has their EE, which Kimber had to give up on finally due to so many problems with their EE.

It's the general opinion of those who are true authorities all all things 1911 for duty/CCW/going to war uses, that the Schwartz system represent a not acceptable risk to reliability and thus can't be recommended for those uses. That does not stop some depts. from using them however. I'm only passing that along, I have a first gen S&W 1911 with at least 30k-40k on it, and no issues with the Schwartz system, but I also will not CCW with it due to warnings from those who know more then I do on the topic. 

That's just my :2c: and passing the info I have developed on the topic.


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## AssadUSMC (Mar 30, 2009)

Centermass said:


> Nice PDW. MP7?
> 
> Some guys have all the fun.......



Yep MP7A1.  Nice piece of gear but the rounds are so hot the blast is like shooting a 10" M4...  Of course that's different with the suppressor.  

We tried it with the AP ball and it popped a pepper popper at 100m.  Works well on glass, too - in both directions (always wear eye pro!!!).


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