# Holocaust



## Muppet (Apr 26, 2017)

Talked to my pop when I took him dinner earlier. It was my great grandfather, I am named after him, sort of. Jews are forbidden to have the same name of an ancestor. So, my name, Layne, is named after my great grandfather on grandmother side, Louis and my middle name, Kevin is named after my great grandfather Koleman.

My great was a Russian Jew, not sure what he was doing in Poland. He was first sent to Berkin-Belkin but later sent to to Auschwitz. Not sure if that was because he was die but the nazi's found out he was a tailor and spared him to make uniforms for the nazi's.

My pop remembers Grandfather Koleman but he did not speak English and would just walk around his rose garden in North Philly.

As I am older now, I become more interested in the Holocaust, knowing that I had blood there, how there are tin foil nuts that believe that millions of Jews, gypsy's and others were murdered and that others believe that this could never happen again....





M.


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## policemedic (Apr 26, 2017)

Yeah, that's the Ashkenazic way; you can't be named after a living relative.

Might be time for another trip to the Holocaust Museum in D.C.


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## SpitfireV (Apr 27, 2017)

I went to Auschwitz last year. I think the thing that struck me that you couldn't get from the books or movies was the sheer scale of it. Seeing the chimneys from the old barracks blocks go to the horizon was certainly not what I was expecting.  The industrialisation of the murder (seeing the size of the gas chambers, for instance) was staggering. 

A shame the place is more circus than museum in some ways now.


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## AWP (Apr 27, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> I went to Auschwitz last year. I think the thing that struck me that you couldn't get from the books or movies was the sheer scale of it. Seeing the chimneys from the old barracks blocks go to the horizon was certainly not what I was expecting.  The industrialisation of the murder (seeing the size of the gas chambers, for instance) was staggering.



And that's one camp. When you go beyond those and see the einsatzgruppen, the logistics of moving that many people, the construction.... It is almost incomprehensible.


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## SpitfireV (Apr 27, 2017)

Exactly right. I did a lot of reading afterward and just, fuck.


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## Gunz (Apr 27, 2017)

It's not just murder and pillage, or a rampaging army putting everyone to the sword--an occurrence with so much historical precedence. It has to stand as the absolute depth of human depravity. Teutonic engineering, organization and vast industrial resources all focused on one task.

No one believed the first reports. You can hardly blame them. Who would? It took the liberation of the first camps to unveil the staggering truth.

And the most incredulous thing of all, that this project of Hitler's twisted mind was carried out so willingly by so many thousands of people.


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## Red Flag 1 (Apr 27, 2017)

[Q


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## Muppet (Apr 27, 2017)

I would like to visit this place, why, I don't know. Maybe because my blood was there and if he did not survive, I would not be here? Or respect to the victims. I did however hear it has become sort of a circus and that pisses me off.

In regards to the video. the violins playing were beautiful but you can hear the sadness. My pop told me that when victims arrived, Jews already there that played violins were at the front gate playing music and then they saw the wrought iron gate that says "work sets you free". 

I also read that a pond on the property has black water. The person, a journalist visiting says that despite being 50 or 60 years later, the ashes from victims were placed in the pond and today, the pond remains black. And, it seems as if the sun never shines there. Not true how that is. 

M.


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## Muppet (Apr 27, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Yeah, that's the Ashkenazic way; you can't be named after a living relative.
> 
> Might be time for another trip to the Holocaust Museum in D.C.



Or even here in town bro. Pop and I have stuff, as in a Nazi flag Zeady brought home. I also know that Zeady was involved with a liberation of a camp, found pics, his bronze star and some other stuff and this goes against what history says that only the Russians liberated camps. There were U.S. personnel also. Pop and I are torn on taking this stuff to Philly's museum or keeping it. I would want to keep some pics, maybe take a few pics and the flag to the museum.

M.


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## AWP (Apr 27, 2017)

Muppet said:


> what history says that only the Russians liberated camps. There were U.S. personnel also.



Anyone or any source repeating that bit about the Russians is a damn liar. Plenty of camps were liberated by the Allies.


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## Isiah6:8 (Apr 27, 2017)

AWP said:


> Anyone or any source repeating that bit about the Russians is a damn liar. Plenty of camps were liberated by the Allies.



There is a documentary called Night will Fall on Netflix and there is some footage of Allied liberation of camps in that.  

The film itself is interesting and I think that it is worth checking out as it touches on many of the points in posts above.


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## Red Flag 1 (Apr 27, 2017)

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## RackMaster (Apr 27, 2017)

Just following to read all your comments.  I don't know enough on the subject and I feel compelled to visit the camps just to pay my respects to so many that suffered in ways I could never comprehend.


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## Gunz (Apr 27, 2017)

AWP said:


> Anyone or any source repeating that bit about the Russians is a damn liar. Plenty of camps were liberated by the Allies.



Just recently I saw film of Eisenhower at a death camp that had just been liberated by US forces. They rounded up the local townfolk and made them take the Grand Tour.


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## Muppet (Apr 27, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> The Dachau Death Camp was liberated by the US 45th ID two days from today in 1945.
> 
> Dachau liberated - Apr 29, 1945 - HISTORY.com.
> 
> ...



When I get into the box of stuff downstairs in basement, I will take some pics to put on here. Apparently, my grandfather and others were picked along with many others for a mission, later known to be a liberation of a camp. My pop seems to think it was Auschwitz but he also admits he forgets alot. I know for a fact Zeady was part of a liberation though...

M.


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## Isiah6:8 (Apr 27, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Just recently I saw film of Eisenhower at a death camp that had just been liberated by US forces. They rounded up the local townfolk and made them take the Grand Tour.



I believe that was Ohdruf which was a labor camp.  The British had done extensive video documentation on Allied liberation of camps and that clip was most likely from their joint teams of US and British troops.  The final British survey went unfinished for 70 years although many of the video evidence and video interviews were used as crucial evidence at Nuremberg.  Some of the most damning were videos showing townspeople and mayors around the camps and mass graves because there was a great fear from the allies nobody would believe the videos.  So they used the wide sweeping shots to show that they weren't faked.


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## SpitfireV (Apr 27, 2017)

As a point of fact, IIRC all the extermination camps were liberated by Soviet forces (because they were all to the east of Germany) whereas the concentration camps were liberated by both (again, as I recall). Dachau was the first one liberated because it was near Munich.

One thing I always found interesting and I still can't develop it to the point that I would like, is the dismantlement and destruction of evidence. The SS knew that what they were doing was right as far as their beliefs but knew the world would not see it like that.


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## AWP (Apr 28, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> As a point of fact, IIRC all the extermination camps were liberated by Soviet forces (because they were all to the east of Germany) whereas the concentration camps were liberated by both (again, as I recall).
> 
> One thing I always found interesting and I still can't develop it to the point that I would like, is the dismantlement and destruction of evidence. The SS knew that what they were doing was right as far as their beliefs but knew the world would not see it like that.



I had to look it up, but you're right about that. Some of the concentration and labor camps had higher death tolls, but weren't built as a pure extermination camp. I'd never made the distinction because you rarely hear/ read of the differences. They are usually referred to as concentration camps without any distinction.

Where Nazi records survived, their info is meticulous, but so much of it was destroyed. The surviving documents though...they are horrific enough.

I am actually glad the camps weren't leveled after the war. They need to remain, the world needs to see the scope of those atrocities. The sheer size of the camps, the organization, the administrative size, the "tactical" elements that traveled with the armies and their methods....Like Cambodia's killing fields or the Soviet gulags and purges, we should be reminded of our capacity for horror even in these modern and "civilized" times.


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## Red Flag 1 (Apr 28, 2017)

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## policemedic (Apr 28, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> It's not just murder and pillage, or a rampaging army putting everyone to the sword--an occurrence with so much historical precedence. It has to stand as the absolute depth of human depravity. Teutonic engineering, organization and vast industrial resources all focused on one task.
> 
> No one believed the first reports. You can hardly blame them. Who would? It took the liberation of the first camps to unveil the staggering truth.
> 
> And the most incredulous thing of all, that this project of Hitler's twisted mind was carried out so willingly by so many thousands of people.



The Holocaust  Museum in DC offers a program to LE that explains how this actually happened, in an effort to ensure American law enforcement would never stand for it.  It's mandatory training for the FBI, my agency, and some others. 

It's a pretty good program, actually.


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## Gunz (Apr 28, 2017)

policemedic said:


> The Holocaust  Museum in DC offers a program to LE that explains how this actually happened, in an effort to ensure American law enforcement would never stand for it.  It's mandatory training for the FBI, my agency, and some others.
> 
> It's a pretty good program, actually.



That's interesting and kind of surprising. It would have to assume some extraordinary events...to get the US to that extreme.


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## policemedic (Apr 28, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> That's interesting and kind of surprising. It would have to assume some extraordinary events...to get the US to that extreme.



There was a lot of frog-in-the-pot social engineering in play. I don't believe it would happen here but learning how it did happen there was well worth the trip.


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## Red Flag 1 (Apr 28, 2017)

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## Kraut783 (Apr 28, 2017)

Great museum....very humbling. The museum is very LEO friendly and allows carry inside.


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## policemedic (Apr 28, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> This^^^^^^has to be one of the best ideas in law enforcement that I have ever heard of. I hope it is well attended by all state and local LEOs across the country.



I'm unsure how many agencies attend. I know every FBI recruit attends while at Quantico, and we send all our new hires--including support personnel--to the program.  When we started going, all of our people went. It took some time but everyone attended.


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## Muppet (Apr 29, 2017)

policemedic said:


> The Holocaust  Museum in DC offers a program to LE that explains how this actually happened, in an effort to ensure American law enforcement would never stand for it.  It's mandatory training for the FBI, my agency, and some others.
> 
> It's a pretty good program, actually.



Wish I would be able to take this, not part of L.E. as a medic anymore...

M.


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## policemedic (Apr 29, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> Great museum....very humbling. The museum is very LEO friendly and allows carry inside.



Good to see them being consistent with the other museums in the area.  If we can carry in Air & Space we should be able to at a museum that actually has had an attack made against it...


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