# Federal Premium HST .45 ACP +P



## Johnboy (Jun 12, 2016)

Good afternoon;
                              A friend who works in _Indiana_ told me when discussing ammunition, that a group uses the COTS Federal Premium HST 230 gr. +P .45 ACP and has found it to be the singularly most effective pistol ammunition used to date. We were discussing, the effectiveness of the more modern ammunition Mil/LE ammunition offerings out there and the recent trend to return to 9mm. The consensus was YES 9mm is more effective then ever before, however the same advances in propellant's and bullet design have been applied to all of the common pistol calibers. ( .357 Sig, .40 .45 ACP ect. ) After 30 years as a range officer, firearms instructor and range master I believe whole heartedly in allowing Officers to carry what they are proficient with and comfortable carrying. Then allow the very best ammunition ( by street credentials ) to be carried.
I'm old enough to have stared my LE career carrying a revolver. I carried the Federal 125 gr. .357. I struggled to maintain proficiency with that some what intense load. As I have grown older, I have become more recoil and muzzle blast sensitive. I own many popular LE pistols, but DO NOT like the .40 due to MB and recoil. 
For me the 9mm makes sense, with careful ammunition selection. But this is my choice and my agency allows. 
Any thoughts out there?
Respectfully
j


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## AWP (Jun 12, 2016)

Johnboy said:


> A friend who works in _Indiana_ told me when discussing ammunition, that a group uses the COTS Federal Premium HST 230 gr. +P .45 ACP and has found it to be the singularly most effective pistol ammunition used to date.



Based on what? "Best" is subjective so what are they basing their opinions on? Expansion, accuracy, penetration... I'm always curious to see how a person or group arrives at the "best" label.

Regarding the .40, no more than I shoot I've never noticed a difference, or at least a significant difference, between it and 9mm. My 10mm, yes, but I've never noticed a difference between my 9 and 40.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 12, 2016)

As someone who competed off and on with both 9mm and .40 S&W, for about 15 years. I can tell a significant difference in recoil and muzzle flip. I mean I have never met someone who fired my G22 & G17 side by side and not state the significant differences of recoil and snap of the muzzle flip.

That said, I carry a G19 currently filled with 115g Critical Defense by Hornday. I have read/watched many ballistics tests on the ammo/weapon combo, understand for some they want a heavier bonded bullet. But I've killed too many deer with it off my back porch and simply feel comfortable with it. Besides the 500 rd case I got for free helped make the decision a bit easier. 

I don't expect to need to shoot through medium barriers (auto glass or sheet metal), I'm not LE having to meet a specific policy, and only carry for self defense. 15+1 and I can wear it with gym shorts, with a comfortable amount of bang to take on any threat I feel I'll run into. 

As long as you are comfortable with the weapon/ammo combo and they meet agency policy, than run with it. There is very little to any significant differences between 45acp, 40s&w and 9mm as far as ballistic performance, especially with current technology. So if recoil and muzzle flip are issues for you, 9mm would be the common sense move. 

I will say that I actually like the recoil of a tuned 1911 in .45acp, with about 13.5-14lbs recoil spring. However, won't carry one due to weight and limited capacity.

$.02


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## Etype (Jun 12, 2016)

All a subsonic bullet does is make a whole, it doesn't cause cavitation and it doesn't fragment very well if at all.

That being said, in .45 ACP, only 185 and 165 gr .+P usually that fit the supersonic bill.

eta-
You shoot someone in the heart or spine with any of the above calibers, they are dead. You gut shoot them or only drop one lung, they have a chance at killing you.

We're not talking Dodge Viper vs. Honda Civic, we're arguing Ferrari vs. Lamborghini.


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## busdriver (Jun 12, 2016)

230g HST +P is pretty heavy on recoil.  Not full bore 10mm nasty, but it is not easy to shoot quickly.


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## policemedic (Jun 13, 2016)

Here's my position on caliber/ammo choice.

Shoot the biggest caliber you can shoot well and fast.  Caliber is moot if you can't make good hits, so accuracy with your chosen platform under stress is king.  A 9mm will work as well as a .45 with the right hit(s).

For 9mm, I like a 147 grain JHP.  My 1911s eat 230gr JHP.  The .40 S&W doesn't bring enough to the table for me; I just don't like it.

The pistol I just took off my belt was a Glock 19 with an RMR.  Make of that what you will.


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## Johnboy (Jun 13, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Based on what? "Best" is subjective so what are they basing their opinions on? Expansion, accuracy, penetration... I'm always curious to see how a person or group arrives at the "best" label.
> 
> Regarding the .40, no more than I shoot I've never noticed a difference, or at least a significant difference, between it and 9mm. My 10mm, yes, but I've never noticed a difference between my 9 and 40.


True Best, is a subjective title. Perhaps what is best for the operator/person carrying the pistol. 
j


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## Johnboy (Jun 13, 2016)

policemedic said:


> Here's my position on caliber/ammo choice.
> 
> Shoot the biggest caliber you can shoot well and fast.  Caliber is moot if you can't make good hits, so accuracy with your chosen platform under stress is king.  A 9mm will work as well as a .45 with the right hit(s).
> 
> ...


I agree! There used to be a school of thought,  that we hope that a .35 caliber bullet will expand, but .45 caliber bullets will never shrink. But there is some much more to the equation then simple projectile performance. I also just took off a Gen 3 Glock 19, loaded with 147 gr. HST +P. ( and two additional +2 mags, handcuffs, knife flash light ect ) Yesterday, it was a Sig P226. I also have been known to carry a G21SF or a Colt's. Heck, even a Sig in .357. I just don't like the .40 either. Have a couple. Even teach with them if the class is carrying .40
Very respectfully
j


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## Johnboy (Jun 13, 2016)

busdriver said:


> 230g HST +P is pretty heavy on recoil.  Not full bore 10mm nasty, but it is not easy to shoot quickly.


True, as is the Ranger T +P. Currently,  I find both less objectionable then most .40 platforms.
It is probably just me, but a really find the recoil impulse of .40 to be uncomfortable.
Very respectfully
j


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## Johnboy (Jun 13, 2016)

Etype said:


> All a subsonic bullet does is make a whole, it doesn't cause cavitation and it doesn't fragment very well if at all.
> 
> That being said, in .45 ACP, only 185 and 165 gr .+P usually that fit the supersonic bill.
> 
> ...


Yes True all! There are some anomalous loads out there that work very well in BG, that shouldn't according to the "math" . The Federal 9BPLE  9mm 115 gr. JHP +P+, works really well. Despite being what the experts now call, an under penetrator. They also fragment quite a bit and shed 20-30 grains.
But, seem to take the fight out of determined anti-socials. The Winchester Ranger "T" 147 gr. JHP performs horribly in laboratory settings, but West coast LE agency's swear by it.
The Ranger "T" 125 gr. .357 Sig works really well in LE shootings,  but almost never works in ballistic simulant. I try to recommend loads that have been proven outside of the lab/range within caliber choice. Often in LE, that choice is made for you.
There are some loads out there I want to embrace, but there isn't enough credible data as of yet.
Such as the the Hornady Critical Duty. Not much there not to like, but not quite enough representations.
The bottom line is shot placement, shot placement, shot placement.

Respectfully
j


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## Johnboy (Jun 13, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> As someone who competed off and on with both 9mm and .40 S&W, for about 15 years. I can tell a significant difference in recoil and muzzle flip. I mean I have never met someone who fired my G22 & G17 side by side and not state the significant differences of recoil and snap of the muzzle flip.
> 
> That said, I carry a G19 currently filled with 115g Critical Defense by Hornday. I have read/watched many ballistics tests on the ammo/weapon combo, understand for some they want a heavier bonded bullet. But I've killed too many deer with it off my back porch and simply feel comfortable with it. Besides the 500 rd case I got for free helped make the decision a bit easier.
> 
> ...


I remember very clearly reading the debrief of the Utah Officer that engaged a mall murderer, saying he was acutely aware of his round count as engaged the bad guy. ( I believe he was carrying a small Kimber 1911 ) I do also love a well tuned 1911,  but have been blessed with the hands of a 12 year old girl, for being 6'3" 215. John Moses's creation feels like a natural fit. When carrying my 1911, I feel most comfortable carrying 4 additional magazines. After a bit,  this felt silly. I moved on to a Glock 21SF. 
I have had my sixteen year old daughter shoot my Glock 22 and 21 side by side round for round. She also believes the .45 is less objectionable in muzzle blast and total recoil impulse.
Most often I will carry the pistol I spent the most recent quality amount of time with. Typically what ever I taught with last. I am currently loaded with the Federal Premium HST 147 gr. +P. It isn't a bonded bullet but acts like one. It does about 1050-70 from my Gen 3 G19, a bit more from a 17 or a Sig P226.
Respectfully
j


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 13, 2016)

Johnboy said:


> I remember very clearly reading the debrief of the Utah Officer that engaged a mall murderer, saying he was acutely aware of his round count as engaged the bad guy. ( I believe he was carrying a small Kimber 1911 ) I do also love a well tuned 1911,  but have been blessed with the hands of a 12 year old girl, for being 6'3" 215. John Moses's creation feels like a natural fit. When carrying my 1911, I feel most comfortable carrying 4 additional magazines. After a bit,  this felt silly. I moved on to a Glock 21SF.
> I have had my sixteen year old daughter shoot my Glock 22 and 21 side by side round for round. She also believes the .45 is less objectionable in muzzle blast and total recoil impulse.
> Most often I will carry the pistol I spent the most recent quality amount of time with. Typically what ever I taught with last. I am currently loaded with the Federal Premium HST 147 gr. +P. It isn't a bonded bullet but acts like one. It does about 1050-70 from my Gen 3 G19, a bit more from a 17 or a Sig P226.
> Respectfully
> j



I agree with what you wrote, with few opinions.

1911 & reloads: I personally found myself more and more weighted down and having to change my attire to fit what I was carrying. For a duty weapon, I see nothing wrong with the added weight. But for concealed carry, it become a trade off and I find myself more and more wanting to wear what I wear that day. The higher the capacity and lighter the gun, the better. Although I have to admit since Texas went to open carry, I find myself open carrying my late fathers BBQ pistol (Colt M1911 with stag grips) when attire fits. But honestly carry my G19 AIWB, daily.

Hand size and grip: I can't tell you the amount of time's I've heard the argument. If my midget 5'2" Hispanic wife can shoot my Glocks, anyone can do it (excluding young children). But honestly I've trained thousands, small hands, big hands, disabled hands, etc. You just figure it out, and make it work. But I'll admit that the 1911 and Beretta 92 are the most natural feeling pistols in my hands, more so the 1911.

Carry what you train on: As someone who used to spend days upon days on the range, I get it. teaching cops today, need to practice up on the G22, teaching soldiers next week, better practice with the M9, etc. Been there done that, probably not on your level. But I can tell you honestly, the greatest feeling was when I stopped and only had to practice with one. Dry fire time, live fire, etc. Now it's a treat when I bust out a 1911, S&W 686, 92FS, Black Hawk, etc. Hell now I even enjoy plinking with my daughters single shot .22, but there for a long time it was all undying focus, checking splits and judging groups. Actually glad that stuff is behind me now.

Well I'm just rambling now.


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## policemedic (Jun 13, 2016)

Johnboy said:


> I remember very clearly reading the debrief of the Utah Officer that engaged a mall murderer, saying he was acutely aware of his round count as engaged the bad guy. ( I believe he was carrying a small Kimber 1911 ) I do also love a well tuned 1911,  but have been blessed with the hands of a 12 year old girl, for being 6'3" 215. John Moses's creation feels like a natural fit. When carrying my 1911, I feel most comfortable carrying 4 additional magazines. After a bit,  this felt silly. I moved on to a Glock 21SF.
> I have had my sixteen year old daughter shoot my Glock 22 and 21 side by side round for round. She also believes the .45 is less objectionable in muzzle blast and total recoil impulse.
> Most often I will carry the pistol I spent the most recent quality amount of time with. Typically what ever I taught with last. I am currently loaded with the Federal Premium HST 147 gr. +P. It isn't a bonded bullet but acts like one. It does about 1050-70 from my Gen 3 G19, a bit more from a 17 or a Sig P226.
> Respectfully
> j



If you recall, he had the pistol but no additional magazines.  He carries extras now .


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## Johnboy (Jun 13, 2016)

Ah a good feeling for sure! I am 3.5 yrs from completing this gig, and if my daughter elects for college will start another. More often then not the Glock 19 is becoming a favorite! Some times, just to be silly I will show up with a 3" Model 624 .44 Special. Especially if my audience are 20 somethings...
j


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## Johnboy (Jun 13, 2016)

policemedic said:


> If you recall, he had the pistol but no additional magazines.  He carries extras now .


Yes! I do.... I bought a Glock 21 shortly after...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 13, 2016)

Johnboy said:


> Ah a good feeling for sure! I am 3.5 yrs from completing this gig, and if my daughter elects for college will start another. More often then not the Glock 19 is becoming a favorite! Some times, just to be silly I will show up with a 3" Model 624 .44 Special. Especially if my audience are 20 somethings...
> j



I used to teach a CCW class, I had been shooting IDPA recently with a model 10 Smith, decided to show up to that class with it and freaked a few out with splits and reloads, about half day I put on my normal gear and really made them feel bad.


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## Johnboy (Jun 13, 2016)

That's awesome! I lived in Irving for a bit and remember vividly the BBQ guns. Nickel 1911's in .45 ACP or .38 Super. Ivory or Stag stocks. I have no doubt that those fella's knew how to use those pistols. I absolutely love the display of 1911's in the Texas Ranger Museum. Not only are the pistols beautiful, but they were carried and used. My 624 is probably the closest I'll get to a BBQ gun. The youngsters call it a cowboy gun. It's a Lew Hortons 3" RB. I have a Don Hume holster for it and a couple of speed loaders. 
With the 200 gr. Speer Gold Dot, it's really not a bad choice. When I started this,  I carried a model 64 in 
an AE Nelson Break Front holster, with four Safariland Speedloaders 2X2. Then came, Smith's 659, 5906, G17 ( my son now owns it ) G22 ect. I'm no DK or JM, but if I knock the rust off... I'll bet I can reload the revolver faster then the kids can change magazines.....
Well sir I'm starting to nod off! Almost 0100 here. 
Please take good care!
Respectfully
j


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