# Back to the Shadows NSW??



## Gunz (Nov 16, 2017)

I hear the line, you can't blame the unit for the actions of a few bad apples, and as true as that may be...when bad apples and other controversies keep cropping up, year after year, maybe the whole damn apple tree has some inherent issues that need to be addressed.

Of all the SO forces in the US and Western militaries, we know way too much about the operations of NSW thanks to NDA violations and the apparent need to fuel the media hype about SEAL activities etc.

It seems to me any supposedly clandestine military unit that gets this much publicity, both good and bad, risks corruption and compromise. Maybe that has already happened.


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## Devildoc (Nov 16, 2017)

I had a friend whose brother was a SEAL in the 80s and early 90s.  In fact, was an extra on Navy SEALs with Charlie Sheen.  When I first met him in the mid-80s, I heard about SEALs, but didn't know much about them.  I understand that with the proliferation of 24/7 electronic media, the GWOT, etc., the public is going to clamor for information, and I understand that we aren't in the veiled 'dark ages' and books and info are bound to get out there.

That said...it does seem of all the SOF units we now know more about NSW than ever; including the doesn't-really-exist DEVGRU.  Some if it has been good:  you have to have bodies to go into the pipeline, and the books, TV shows/documentaries, and websites are good for recruiting; however, most of it, not so good.  You don't see a commensurate volume of media about Delta, nor do you hear about corruption, legal troubles, NDA issues, and security violations when you do.

I am not going to reach for any kind of conclusion or speculation, but my opinion is that there is an undeniable correlation between the volume of attention/media and the magnification of the 'bad stuff.'  My mother would say when I acted up, "don't draw attention to yourself...all you will do is make people see how bad you can be."


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## Frank S. (Nov 16, 2017)

I think society expects machine-like levels of performance from its military. Its medical professionals. Its law enforcement personnel.
The professionals in those fields know all about what it takes, what can go wrong and what is needed, but when it comes to meeting increasingly complex goals in constantly shrinking time frames, everything and everyone familiar becomes an unknown liability.
There are no second chances and we're out of time.

Now some will clamor for a scalpel and a band aid.


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## Topkick (Nov 16, 2017)

When I enlisted in the mid 80s, the Green Berets were truly _Quiet Professionals_ and I have a few friends from that era that are now retired Green Berets. When I hang out with them now, I am always the one to tell people they were Special Forces soldiers because I am proud to call them my buddies. You would never know it and they would never mention it. I adopted the Quiet Professional motto for my own military career, because of them, and always tried to impart this on my soldiers. Today, I even use the motto to inspire my 15 year old son. There can be no doubt that SEALs, Rangers, and other SOF units know their shit and I am glad they exist. I just wish they would all be Quiet Professionals. My .02


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## DC (Nov 16, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> I had a friend whose brother was a SEAL in the 80s and early 90s.  In fact, was an extra on Navy SEALs with Charlie Sheen.  When I first met him in the mid-80s, I heard about SEALs, but didn't know much about them.  I understand that with the proliferation of 24/7 electronic media, the GWOT, etc., the public is going to clamor for information, and I understand that we aren't in the veiled 'dark ages' and books and info are bound to get out there.
> 
> That said...it does seem of all the SOF units we now know more about NSW than ever; including the doesn't-really-exist DEVGRU.  Some if it has been good:  you have to have bodies to go into the pipeline, and the books, TV shows/documentaries, and websites are good for recruiting; however, most of it, not so good.  You don't see a commensurate volume of media about Delta, nor do you hear about corruption, legal troubles, NDA issues, and security violations when you do.
> 
> I am not going to reach for any kind of conclusion or speculation, but my opinion is that there is an undeniable correlation between the volume of attention/media and the magnification of the 'bad stuff.'  My mother would say when I acted up, "don't draw attention to yourself...all you will do is make people see how bad you can be."



Those frogs( intel O, EOD guy and helo pilot) in that movie I served with.


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## CDG (Nov 16, 2017)

I think the Teams have created and cultivated a culture that was inevitably going to end up in some major events.  They have opened themselves up to criticism by the rest of the military, and the civilian populace, with their need for everyone to see how cool they are.  There have been way too many stories about SEALs in the last few years to act as though they are simply a victim of the 10% rule.  They did this to themselves, and hopefully there will be some consequences.  I think NSW needs a leadership overhaul, and that a message has got to start being sent that there are behaviors that will not be tolerated just because you wear/wore a Trident. Unauthorized media consulting, books, television shows, articles, drugs, alleged war crimes, and now the potential murder of a USSF soldier.  Add to that that there is almost no one I have talked to who has worked with the Teams, and has a positive viewpoint.  Myself included.


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## Teufel (Nov 17, 2017)

Marcinko started it all with his book “rogue warrior” and promoted a culture of the elite cowboy who battled the rules and the close minded system to get the job done. He also introduced the idea of self promotion plus exaggerated exploits equals dollar signs. He was the first SEAL to discover that you can squeeze money out of a trident.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 17, 2017)

Teufel said:


> Marcinko started it all with his book “rogue warrior” and promoted a culture of the elite cowboy who battled the rules and the close minded system to get the job done. He also introduced the idea of self promotion plus exaggerated exploits equals dollar signs. He was the first SEAL to discover that you can squeeze money out of a trident.



Could not agree more with this post.  I was still in the Corps when Rogue Warrior came out...everyone, and I mean EVERYONE had a paperback copy in their cargo-pants pocket.  As a young impressionable Marine I remember feeling both awe and shock at his antics.  There are some lessons from a leadership point that I still follow today, but his literal celebration of circumventing the 'rules' never sat well with me.  

One story in particular always sticks with me, and for some reason I think of it often.  It's been a few years since I've picked up the book; so I am paraphrasing a bit. Marcinko was in Vietnam and did not like the missions he was being sent on and was required to file a plan by "X" time for the following day.  He'd file it at the last minute and begin it with, "UOD" (Unless Otherwise Directed) and write out the mission he wanted to go on, not the one his command wanted him to go on.  His absolute disdain for nearly everyone whom he reported to was fascinating to read...and from his perspective he was "right".  Those weenie officers above him had been out of the game too long and forgot what it took to fight a war...only Demo Dick and his merry band of SEAL's had what it took to get the real jobs done.  Or something like that.

I've always believed that book in particular was a literal blueprint for the future perceived disfunction within the SEAL teams.


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## Devildoc (Nov 17, 2017)

More than just the book itself, Marcinko's devil-may-care command attitude at ST6 set the stage for dysfunction when by his direction/lack of direction they got into legal trouble.  When you are openly permissive about breaking rules, this, now, is what you get.  But his whole we're-better-than-thou command philosophy at ST6 was magnified from that same attitude that's always been pervasive with much of NSW.

To what @CDG said, it's the 10% rule, and it sucks and it may be unfair, but they brought it on themselves.  And to echo @CDG , as a group of guys with whom to work, they are terrible.  That said, there are some true studs (as there are in any unit) that are at the opposite end of the spectrum of those we are discussing, a few I am proud to call friends.


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## DA SWO (Nov 17, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Could not agree more with this post.  I was still in the Corps when Rogue Warrior came out...everyone, and I mean EVERYONE had a paperback copy in their cargo-pants pocket.  As a young impressionable Marine I remember feeling both awe and shock at his antics.  There are some lessons from a leadership point that I still follow today, but his literal celebration of circumventing the 'rules' never sat well with me.
> 
> One story in particular always sticks with me, and for some reason I think of it often.  It's been a few years since I've picked up the book; so I am paraphrasing a bit. Marcinko was in Vietnam and did not like the missions he was being sent on and was required to file a plan by "X" time for the following day.  *He'd file it at the last minute and begin it with, "UOD" (Unless Otherwise Directed) and write out the mission he wanted to go on, not the one his command wanted him to go on*.  His absolute disdain for nearly everyone whom he reported to was fascinating to read...and from his perspective he was "right".  Those weenie officers above him had been out of the game too long and forgot what it took to fight a war...only Demo Dick and his merry band of SEAL's had what it took to get the real jobs done.  Or something like that.
> 
> I've always believed that book in particular was a literal blueprint for the future perceived disfunction within the SEAL teams.



I always thought the UOD was genius, and used it in my last SOF assignment, but you are correct in the overall assessment.

IIRC one of the lessons learned from Grenada was ST6 not running full mission profiles, they'd go jump, or shoot or swim but didn't didn't parachute in and assault a target, that led to the four SEALs being grossly overweight when they parachuted into the water that day.


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## 8482farm (Nov 17, 2017)

Teufel said:


> He was the first SEAL to discover that you can squeeze money out of a trident.



This couldn't be any more true. You see plenty of former SEALs and other SOF personnel on social media and mainstream media now using their experiences and status as a gateway into promoting their personal businesses like books, motivational speaking, entertainment consultants, clothing brands, food brands, and PT programs. Although the invaluable leadership skills and positive characteristics that you gain from service can be more than applicable in the business world, it's probably important that their communities draw a obvious line between what is and what is not acceptable in their endeavors after service.


Side note: 

Business Insider has produced many videos which take premises that apply to everyday life and have them "explained by a Navy SEAL" which I think is pretty funny. "A Navy SEAL explains how to shop for car insurance" that's not a real video title but you get the idea.


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## DasBoot (Nov 17, 2017)

8482farm said:


> This couldn't be any more true. You see plenty of former SEALs and other SOF personnel on social media and mainstream media now using their experiences and status as a gateway into promoting their personal businesses like books, motivational speaking, entertainment consultants, clothing brands, food brands, and PT programs. Although the invaluable leadership skills and positive characteristics that you gain from service can be more than applicable in the business world, it's probably important that their communities draw a obvious line between what is and what is not acceptable in their endeavors after service.
> 
> 
> Side note:
> ...


“Are you a brain surgeon?” 
“No but I did graduate BUD/S... and stayed in a Holiday Inn last night..”


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 17, 2017)

DasBoot said:


> “No but I did graduate BUD/S... and stayed in a Holiday Inn last night..”



And my Tempur-Pedic mattress makes me stronger!


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## Devildoc (Nov 17, 2017)

I have mixed feeling about trading the trident for dollars.  I mean, who doesn't like taking classes with Larry Vickers because he was Delta?  Jeff Gonzalez is a legit instructor.  It's a natural business seque from the field to teacher.  Where to draw the line?  It's like defining art to me....I do not know, but I'll know it when I see it.  Aside from penalties for violating NDAs and such, not sure how much teeth NSW has in enforcing any code of behavior once the sailor is out.

I will tell you, though, having SEAL behind your name as a credential (or SF, Recon, whatever) will allow you to build a cult-like following.  A lot of my workout buddies do GoRuck, and are enamored with the cadre.  For veterans day I led a veterans day workout in boots-and-utes, and for shits and giggles had a full ALICE load out.  They were stunned...."how could you do that, you weren't a SEAL!"  They had zero idea that non-SOF still had to hump a lot of heavy shit a long ways fast.

The moral of the story is, it sells.


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## Gunz (Nov 17, 2017)

I don't have a problem with retired or former Special Operations people exploiting their bona fides to make a buck selling mattresses or can openers...or whatever.

Kyle Lamb can make all the money he wants teaching big shots with money how to dress and shoot like a Delta operator and that's just fine with me...because he's teaching skills not discussing classified operations. When our member SAWMAN took the TV gig on that marksmanship series, I never considered it inappropriate.

But I _do_ have a problem when they try to make a buck violating their NDAs and publishing information that the public (and our enemies) don't need to know.


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## Blizzard (Nov 17, 2017)

Is there an issue with NSW or is there perhaps a broader leadership issue within the Navy or maybe even DoD?   If we're objective, are their issues really that disproportionate from those of their peers (we can all do hasty Google searches for examples)?  NSW doesn't have a monopoly on this.  

Virtually nothing in our society is secret these days; just look at the stuff we hear about in the news on a regular basis as an example (all the leaks in Washington, regardless of Administration).  If you really want to know something, how much can you find on the internet?  The information available to us is unprecedented.  Look at all the behind the scenes documentaries, etc. DoD approved, ex. all the "Making the Cut" series or whatever they were called; seems like every unit had at least one.  Add to this the fact that every minutia of action can be, and is, dissected down to the gnats ass.  Who decides where to focus the microscope?  This drives the info we see.  With such a constant level of focus, there can be never be a misstep without greatest dissemination available, especially from those just waiting for the misstep to occur.


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## Teufel (Nov 17, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> I have mixed feeling about trading the trident for dollars.  I mean, who doesn't like taking classes with Larry Vickers because he was Delta?  Jeff Gonzalez is a legit instructor.  It's a natural business seque from the field to teacher.  Where to draw the line?  It's like defining art to me....I do not know, but I'll know it when I see it.  Aside from penalties for violating NDAs and such, not sure how much teeth NSW has in enforcing any code of behavior once the sailor is out.
> 
> I will tell you, though, having SEAL behind your name as a credential (or SF, Recon, whatever) will allow you to build a cult-like following.  A lot of my workout buddies do GoRuck, and are enamored with the cadre.  For veterans day I led a veterans day workout in boots-and-utes, and for shits and giggles had a full ALICE load out.  They were stunned...."how could you do that, you weren't a SEAL!"  They had zero idea that non-SOF still had to hump a lot of heavy shit a long ways fast.
> 
> The moral of the story is, it sells.


Here is one difference. You go to Larry Vickers, who happens to be a highly trained SOF professional, for training. The other day I saw the, “Navy SEAL guide for dog training”. No kidding. That’s what I take umbrage at. No one SEAL or other SOF individual can speak for the entire community, unless I suppose they are the Commanding General. SEALs love that shit. Now you have Navy SEAL pull up bars, rotating push up pads, SEAL nutrition books, countless official SEAL knives, SEAL watches, more SEAL exercise books than you can count, an entire section of SO THERE I WAS books, SEAL movies, SEAL video games, SEAL leadership books (which I assume include chapters on “looking cool” and “let your guys do whatever they want to include drugs, mutilating the dead, fraud, theft, and murder”), and even a SEAL book on gender transition.


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## Gunz (Nov 17, 2017)

Teufel said:


> ...even a SEAL book on gender transition.



...........with or without flippers?


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## Teufel (Nov 17, 2017)




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## AWP (Nov 17, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Marcinko was in Vietnam and did not like the missions he was being sent on and was required to file a plan by "X" time for the following day.  He'd file it at the last minute and begin it with, "UOD" (Unless Otherwise Directed) and write out the mission he wanted to go on, not the one his command wanted him to go on.



I've this at times and it is actually kind of genius. Level Zero Heroes has a passage that details how they had to file Level Zero CONOPS or else a risk adverse command would deny them. I know an SF team that did the same thing, understating the perceived risk so that higher would approve the mission. "Gangsta' shit" is necessary at times, but when it becomes your day in and day out MO you have a problem.


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## Teufel (Nov 17, 2017)

AWP said:


> I've this at times and it is actually kind of genius. Level Zero Heroes has a passage that details how they had to file Level Zero CONOPS or else a risk adverse command would deny them. I know an SF team that did the same thing, understating the perceived risk so that higher would approve the mission. "Gangsta' shit" is necessary at times, but when it becomes your day in and day out MO you have a problem.


This is the problem. It’s easy to say it’s all good until your tactical problem becomes a strategic issue.


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## Gunz (Nov 18, 2017)




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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 18, 2017)

Even the Army is not immune from manpower shortages for it's most elite-of-the-elite....

New Army Program Allows Recruits To Join Delta Force

FORT BRAGG, N.C. — Critical manpower shortages have resulted in Delta Force allowing brand new soldiers to attend their selection and training pipeline right out of basic training, according to US Army Public Affairs.

“With the wars drawing down, the pool of seasoned candidates for CAG has grown too small,” reported Public Affairs spokesman Capt. Oliver Jones.

“Initial-entry enlistment has worked for years for Navy SEALs, Rangers, and Special Forces,” remarked Jones.


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## Devildoc (Nov 18, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Even the Army is not immune from manpower shortages for it's most elite-of-the-elite....
> 
> New Army Program Allows Recruits To Join Delta Force
> 
> ...



I was having a stroke thinking "this can't be right," then I saw the source 😉


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 18, 2017)

...sigh...


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## Devildoc (Nov 18, 2017)

Teufel said:


> Here is one difference. You go to Larry Vickers, who happens to be a highly trained SOF professional, for training. The other day I saw the, “Navy SEAL guide for dog training”. No kidding. *That’s what I take umbrage at.* No one SEAL or other SOF individual can speak for the entire community, unless I suppose they are the Commanding General. SEALs love that shit. Now you have Navy SEAL pull up bars, rotating push up pads, SEAL nutrition books, countless official SEAL knives, SEAL watches, more SEAL exercise books than you can count, an entire section of SO THERE I WAS books, SEAL movies, SEAL video games, SEAL leadership books (which I assume include chapters on “looking cool” and “let your guys do whatever they want to include drugs, mutilating the dead, fraud, theft, and murder”), and even a SEAL book on gender transition.



Agreed, and there is "too far" and "too much" and "too stupid."  That's why I made the comment that I did about not always knowing where to draw the line but I'll know it when I see it.  'I was there' books.  Um, OK, sure.  "A SEALs Guide to Dog Handling?"  Not so much.  SEAL pull-up bars?  WTF.

I hate seeing all of this stuff.  Hate it.  It denudes the community and cheapens it.


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## Teufel (Nov 18, 2017)




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## Blizzard (Nov 18, 2017)

It seems everyone takes their turn at some point.  Some of it is perception and may really be outside the control of their respective communities.

Seemingly anyone can attach a label to a product.  Deservedly or not, Navy SEALs are apparently a "hot" sell right now (or at least the people pimping the merch think so) in much the same way as merchandise like zombie apocalypse movies/gear or any product targeted toward pets and young kids.  Plenty of mystique has been placed on the Marine Corps by popular culture over the years as well.  Seems the only one left out of the mix is the Air Force.

When I was a little kid, I remember seeing an old movie on tv called "The Green Berets" starring some guy named John Wayne.   It was the predecessor to "Navy SEALs" with Charlie Sheen.  Green Berets were seemingly all the rage in the immediate post Vietnam era.

There was a whole series of Green Beret comic books:






Have we forgotten an entire movie franchise in the 80's built around Rambo?

As with the SEALs, there are plenty of Green Beret workouts and books to go around.

Barry Sadler had a Billboard No. 1 song about the Green Berets in the 60's.  His was a life in the spotlight at the time that didn't always reflect great credit upon himself or the U.S. Army.

And Jeffrey MacDonald's story made every major headline at the time with follow on movies about the murder as well.

All this predated a society that has the unprecedented access to information that we do these days.  What would that look in today's society?


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## Teufel (Nov 18, 2017)

Blizzard said:


> It seems everyone takes their turn at some point.  Some of it is perception and may really be outside the control of their respective communities.
> 
> Seemingly anyone can attach a label to a product.  Deservedly or not, Navy SEALs are apparently a "hot" sell right now (or at least the people pimping the merch think so) in much the same way as merchandise like zombie apocalypse movies/gear or any product targeted toward pets and young kids.  Plenty of mystique has been placed on the Marine Corps by popular culture over the years as well.  Seems the only one left out of the mix is the Air Force.
> 
> ...


There is a big difference between a civilian writing a story with a SEAL or Green Beret character in it and a legion of SEALs writing books about the SEAL guides to shooting, nutrition, yoga, whatever. The same idea applies to products.


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## Teufel (Nov 18, 2017)




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## CDG (Nov 18, 2017)

@Teufel, I'm down with the flu right now.  Can you post a link to the Navy SEAL's Guide To Getting Over the Flu, please?  Those guys know all the best things.


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## Blizzard (Nov 18, 2017)

Teufel said:


> There is a big difference between a civilian writing a story with a SEAL or Green Beret character in it and a legion of SEALs writing books about the SEAL guides to shooting, nutrition, yoga, whatever. The same idea applies to products.


Concur...and that was part of the point I was trying to make.  

How much of this is real and how much is perceived as a result of Hollywood/pop culture/etc.?  Is what we see from NSW really that disproportionate from their peers or have a few from NSW just had more "success" with their endeavors?

They may not all be Stew Smith but there's plenty of SF/Green Beret reading materials out there.  Dale Comstock is doing his thing.  Nicholas Irving has a sniper book.  There's Hawke's Green Beret Survival Manual.  Tim Kennedy did his thing with UFC and workout programs.  Tony Schwalm has a workout/training book.

My point is, there's really not a shortage of this stuff, is there?


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## BloodStripe (Nov 18, 2017)

Sir, you have some explaining to do.


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## Teufel (Nov 18, 2017)

Blizzard said:


> Concur...and that was part of the point I was trying to make.
> 
> How much of this is real and how much is perceived as a result of Hollywood/pop culture/etc.?  Is what we see from NSW really that disproportionate from their peers or have a few from NSW just had more "success" with their endeavors?
> 
> ...


A friend of mine worked in one of the SOCOM departments of the Pentagon and he told me that a couple NSW guys there were specifically tasked to report on new SEAL books, verify if they had been through pre-publication with SOCOM (spoiler alert: most aren’t), and read them to check for OPSEC violations. So you tell me.

I’ll say this again. If you sign an NDA, and write a book without going through pre-publication, you are a self serving dirt bag

This is a photo of the 4th phase of BUD/s where candidates bob for book deals.


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## Teufel (Nov 18, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> Sir, you have some explaining to do. View attachment 20312


Damn i was on the wrong deployment


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## Frank S. (Nov 18, 2017)

"- A happy life is a concealed life"
              Some French MF who made it through the Revolution.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 19, 2017)

Teufel said:


> where candidates bob for book deals.



I absolutely love when posts on this board cause me to laugh loud enough for those around me to stare in bemusement.


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## Teufel (Nov 19, 2017)

In their own words: "Selling the Trident": Navy SEALs describe a culture in crisis, in their own words - CBS News

“The Death of our quiet professionalism continues to erode at our ethos, and endangers our Teammates overseas, not to mention our families at home.”


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## AWP (Nov 19, 2017)

From the link above:



> If you take, for example the media coverage of operations Redwings and Extortion, you would believe that two different Chinook helicopters were shot down with RPGs. RPGs are not capable of taking out a helicopter as large as a Chinook—or only under very rare circumstances. For it to happen twice should raise questions.



LOLWUT


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## amlove21 (Nov 19, 2017)

AWP said:


> From the link above:
> 
> 
> 
> LOLWUT


What. The literal. Shit.


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## SpitfireV (Nov 19, 2017)

In the context of the narrative though, he does say that because he thinks they were taken down with SAMs. So it's not some random out of context comment but one- which I personally don't agree with since an Iraqi farmer can take down an Apache so RPGs shouldn't be discounted against Chinooks- he believes based on...I dunno, stuff he's seen or heard.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 20, 2017)

Get your Navy SEAL Coffee: Trident Coffee


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## Teufel (Nov 20, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Get your Navy SEAL Coffee: Trident Coffee


The trident in this case is Naval not NSW. It doesn’t mention NSW anywhere. The owners attended the Naval Academy. One was a civil engineer and the other was a logistics officer in the Marines. 

Victory Coffees - Our-Story 
Victory coffee is founded by a Navy SEAL but the focus appears to be on the coffee and not the SEAL. That’s the way it should be. This is why I don’t have a problem with Jocko Wilink’s books. He has a great story from his time in Iraq, he doesn’t use a ghost writer, and his books focus on his leadership philosophy. You don’t read his books because he is a Navy SEAL; you read Jocko’s book because you are interested in what a respected combat leader, who happens to be a SEAL, has to say. He doesn’t reveal TTPs or exaggerate exploits to sell paperbacks. Not that he needs to, TF Bruiser did some amazing things in Ramadi.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 20, 2017)

Interesting that none of the three founders of Trident Coffee were SEALs or NSW types.  Sort of regular guys in the Navy.  A Seabee Officer, Navy Logistics, and a local civilian.  However, the implication is the same.  I immediately drew the connection from Ryan Williams instagram, former co-founder of Forged.


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## Devildoc (Nov 20, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Interesting that none of the three founders of Trident Coffee were SEALs or NSW types.  Sort of regular guys in the Navy.  A Seabee Officer, Navy Logistics, and a local civilian.  However, the implication is the same.  I immediately drew the connection from Ryan Williams instagram, former co-founder of Forged.



The 'trident' is an old-school Navy thing that was co-opted by NSW as the catchy name of their breast insignia.  Over the past couple decades is indistinguishable, one-and-the-same, so yeah, the implication is there, even if the intent is not.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 20, 2017)

I extremely disagree, with the way branding of SEALs chasing the monetization of tridents, this is a piggy back.


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## AWP (Nov 20, 2017)

[QUOTE="SpitfireV, post: 492018, member: 51"... so RPGs shouldn't be discounted against Chinooks- he believes based on...I dunno, stuff he's seen or heard.[/QUOTE]

Except that a MANPAD and RPG have different flight characteristics. I don't recall eyewitnesses claiming either TURBINE 33 or EXTORTION 17 were hit by anything other than an RPG. To say that an RPG can't shoot down a Chinook without dipping into a large bucket of luck is utter madness.

I thought the article was solid until the Chinook portion. That doesn't mean the other info is wrong, but it detracts from the message.


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## Devildoc (Nov 20, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> I extremely disagree, with the way branding of SEALs chasing the monetization of tridents, this is a piggy back.



Sure, may be, probably is, my point is the Trident has been around the Navy a helluva lot longer than NSW, and it's no more NSW's thing than any other sailor.  I agree re: piggy-backing on the intent.  But I don't fault them any more than a SEAL doing the same thing.


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## Teufel (Nov 20, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> Sure, may be, probably is, my point is the Trident has been around the Navy a helluva lot longer than NSW, and it's no more NSW's thing than any other sailor.  I agree re: piggy-backing on the intent.  But I don't fault them any more than a SEAL doing the same thing.


The founders are all Naval Academy graduates and the trident has long been associated with sea power. It features prominently in a great number of naval logos and insignia. The logo for ESG 3, for example, is basically just a giant trident.


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## Devildoc (Nov 20, 2017)

Teufel said:


> The founders are all Naval Academy graduates and the trident has long been associated with sea power. It features prominently in a great number of naval logos and insignia.... basically just a giant trident.



Sure, which is why I had made the comment that it's been around a lot longer than NSWs co-opting the term.  While you know that, and I know that, and anyone else associated with the Navy knows that, the populace will just believe it has something to do with NSW.  The whole guilt by association thing.  Which is very unfortunate; my Navy is defined by "Damn the torpedoes...." and "I have not yet begun to fight," but the population sees "Rogue Warrior" and "SEAL Team" on CBS.


----------



## CQB (Nov 20, 2017)

The Brits stopped all this some time ago due to the Bravo Two Zero memoir. Maybe it’s due in the US.


----------



## Devildoc (Nov 20, 2017)

CQB said:


> The Brits stopped all this some time ago due to the Bravo Two Zero memoir. Maybe it’s due in the US.



How?  What did they do to stem the tide?


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Nov 20, 2017)

Could


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 20, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Could this be when things started going badly for the SEALs?



Agreed.  But it was this scene, with the sniper named God that gave me douche-chills.


----------



## CQB (Nov 20, 2017)

An NDA would work.


----------



## Teufel (Nov 20, 2017)

CQB said:


> An NDA would work.


Hasn’t worked so far!!


----------



## Devildoc (Nov 20, 2017)

CQB said:


> An NDA would work.



Yeah....no....

I don't profess to know enough about the law providing teeth to enforcement of NDAs, so maybe that's where it needs to be addressed.  But NDAs in and of themselves haven't worked.


----------



## CQB (Nov 20, 2017)

It’s worked for the Brits. I haven’t heard much regarding SAS over the past 10 years in personal accounts & I’d say they’ve been pretty busy.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 20, 2017)

CQB said:


> It’s worked for the Brits.



Probably helps when the person who signs the document, believes that violating it will be more hassle than it’s worth.


----------



## Teufel (Nov 20, 2017)

CQB said:


> It’s worked for the Brits. I haven’t heard much regarding SAS over the past 10 years in personal accounts & I’d say they’ve been pretty busy.


Most communities don’t need an NDA to keep their traps shut. It’s worked for most...


----------



## CQB (Nov 20, 2017)

Yes it has. The date of this article is 1996 and the RTU option looks to have had a real effect. 

SAS men are ordered never to write books


----------



## Grunt (Nov 20, 2017)

NDA's are only as good as the men who sign them or the men who prosecute the violators.

They are violated fairly frequently.

At the end of the day...it's really based on honor. You have it or you don't....


----------



## Florida173 (Nov 20, 2017)

Relentless Strike is a pretty good indicator that NDAs don't work.. Especially when people feel they've been slighted


----------



## Teufel (Nov 20, 2017)

CQB said:


> Yes it has. The date of this article is 1996 and the RTU option looks to have had a real effect.
> 
> SAS men are ordered never to write books


I get that it works for you guys. It hasn’t worked for us unfortunately.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 20, 2017)

When people violate their NDAs, you hold them accountable.  We haven't done that last part often.


----------



## CQB (Nov 20, 2017)

Teufel said:


> I get that it works for you guys. It hasn’t worked for us unfortunately.


It does have an effect, but an RTU wouldn't work on someone who has got out but would be a pretty effective measure whilst in. Perhaps stipulating a mandatory time period post employment as part of an NDA. (Please excuse the scant knowledge of any U.S. NDA).


----------



## TLDR20 (Nov 20, 2017)

Do vanilla SEALs sign NDA’s? 

I don’t think they do... 

They made a major motion picture with active SEALs in starting roles?

That isn’t an NDA issue, that is a ducking overexposure issue.


----------



## Teufel (Nov 20, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Do vanilla SEALs sign NDA’s?
> 
> I don’t think they do...
> 
> ...


I’m not sure. I know the Bin Laden sell out did because the DOD went after him. I think he is the only one they went after. Anyway. It’s clearly a cultural problem.


----------



## Il Duce (Nov 20, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Do vanilla SEALs sign NDA’s?
> 
> I don’t think they do...
> 
> ...



NDAs only cover classified information - at least in the US.


----------



## SpitfireV (Nov 21, 2017)

AWP said:


> [QUOTE="SpitfireV, post: 492018, member: 51"... so RPGs shouldn't be discounted against Chinooks- he believes based on...I dunno, stuff he's seen or heard.



Except that a MANPAD and RPG have different flight characteristics. I don't recall eyewitnesses claiming either TURBINE 33 or EXTORTION 17 were hit by anything other than an RPG. To say that an RPG can't shoot down a Chinook without dipping into a large bucket of luck is utter madness.

I thought the article was solid until the Chinook portion. That doesn't mean the other info is wrong, but it detracts from the message.[/QUOTE]

I don't disagree but what I meant was that he seems sincere in his opinion- whether that is because he can't accept it or whatever, he does seem sincere.


----------



## BloodStripe (Nov 21, 2017)

CQB said:


> It’s worked for the Brits. I haven’t heard much regarding SAS over the past 10 years in personal accounts & I’d say they’ve been pretty busy.



Secrets of the SAS: In Their Own Words | Netflix

While one Netflix show is far less than a whole book series on training your dog the Navy SEAL way, it could be a launching point for more.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 21, 2017)

Anyone who was ever granted a clearance is required to sign an NDA.  AFAIK anyone in uniform assigned to a SOF unit must have a clearance.NDAs cover classified information, which often covers SOF TTPs.  Anyone read onto special access programs has an additional NDA.  Units may have unit-specific NDAs.

Standard Form 312 - Wikipedia


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 21, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Do vanilla SEALs sign NDA’s?
> 
> I don’t think they do...
> 
> ...


You mean a DoN sponsored recruiting piece?  Big difference here.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 21, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> You mean a DoN sponsored recruiting piece?  Big difference here.



I agree.  There is nothing wrong with DoD-approved work on movies, TV shows, books, or going on the talk show circuit.  It's not even that hard; I co-authored a book that is full of literal war stories from the Ranger Regiment and we did it with the full approval of the Regiment.  The problem is, most people don't even try to get permission.  They sell out their units and personal integrity for the almighty dollar, because they know they will most likely never get called to account for it.  Before the recoupment effort on the "Bin Laden Shooter," about the only thing that would happen to you is that you don't get invited to the unit picnic and your former team mates say mean things about you on Twitter.  "Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of ALL THIS MONEY!!!" 

Until/unless people start going to jail over this stuff, it's going to continue to get worse.


----------



## Il Duce (Nov 21, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> I agree.  There is nothing wrong with DoD-approved work on movies, TV shows, books, or going on the talk show circuit.  It's not even that hard; I co-authored a book that is full of literal war stories from the Ranger Regiment and we did it with the full approval of the Regiment.  The problem is, most people don't even try to get permission.  They sell out their units and personal integrity for the almighty dollar, because they know they will most likely never get called to account for it.  Before the recoupment effort on the "Bin Laden Shooter," about the only thing that would happen to you is that you don't get invited to the unit picnic and your former team mates say mean things about you on Twitter.  "Sorry, I can't hear you over the sound of ALL THIS MONEY!!!"
> 
> Until/unless people start going to jail over this stuff, it's going to continue to get worse.



I also think there's a collective reputational issue as well - across the board.  Even if members of a unit or organization go 'by-the-book' with permissions and classifications the accumulation of material and actions affect the overall reputation of the organization.  I think the USMC deals with this better than the other services.  My perception - from the outside - is they are very leary of individual units or organizations building an individual brand.  They recognize it's going to come back on the USMC as a whole - thus are very cognizant of the reputation of the Corps.  I think it's something the other services could learn from as we talk about 'you ain't shit if you're not - Cav, Ranger, SF, CA, airborne, armor, Rembass' (I wish the last one were more of a joke :).

Maybe it gets to the wider discussion of 'war porn' and 'veteran style' where a bunch of dudes with sleeve tattoos and beards cash in on that branding - whether they served or not.  I think Havok Journal has written about this phenomenon...


----------



## SaintKP (Nov 21, 2017)

I have a question from a business/civilian point of view since and it has more to do with the branding of things and less of the ethics and morality of violating your NDA and unit secrecy.

There are a plethora of military aimed clothing, coffee, and lifestyle websites (Black Rifle, ZF, Mountain Tactical, OAF Nation, etc.). Why don't the people in question go that route with more of a general "military" theme (instead of for example "The SEAL way of making your bed"). 

I understand that you need to create appeal for your product and really from a general civilian standpoint the top "cool guy" unit are SEALS right now (just like Special Forces were and Rangers were at a later point). But what happens when they're no longer flavor of the month for Special Operations are they still going to hold onto the weight that their unit name has even if it may not be as relevant in the public eye? 

**I feel I need to clarify a little because this can be misconstrued, I don't mean to discredit the work that SEALS have done past and present. But speaking from the view of a civilian we hear so much more about SEALS than we do literally any other unit out their. What I'm failing to say is that if a Green Beret and a SEAL both published a book right now, I have no doubt in my mind that the latter would get much more attention simply for the fact that they have more "popularity" in the public eye right now. 

So that brings up my question of instead of trying to make everything SEAL related or throw it in as a tagline to draw in views. Why don't they adopt a more warrior ethos approach, sort of like what Jocko does or even ZF. Both have massive followings and yet neither pimp out their unit or branch for it.


Apologies if this is confusing to read, I'm more than willing to try and clarify if need be.


----------



## BloodStripe (Nov 21, 2017)

Because people idolize the "cool guy" on the street. The only reason you enter into a business is to maximize economic profits. If I own a t-shirt business I want to know what's selling so I can make the most amount of money.


----------



## Topkick (Nov 21, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> Because people idolize the "cool guy" on the street. The only reason you enter into a business is to maximize economic profits. If I own a t-shirt business I want to know what's selling so I can make the most amount of money.



And the cool guys on the street are SEALs. Everyone else is just not as cool right now. As for a "General military theme", Conventional Army guys like myself are not allowed to have cool beards and have to play by the rules, use military issue gear, and wear issued uniforms. That just doesn't sell products like Navy SEAL beard oil and operator hats and doesn't look as cool in the movies.


----------



## SaintKP (Nov 21, 2017)

I get that and I touched on that point, but they don't even have to tap into the cool guy factor just more of that "dude bro veteran" with beards,  full sleeves,etc. (Il Duce tocuhed on this and I believe OAF has an article delving into this persona). Or even going the route Jocko does and doing a leader/warrior ethos approach, it's harder to maintain that clean image but personally I believe you get more respect for it.


Then again, you can argue that a lot of the ZeroFoxtrot clothing is to give that "coolguy" feel and also add to the fact that why try and work hard when you can make the quick buck (i.e. throw a SEAL tag into everything). Damn...talk about a shit sandwich all the way around.


----------



## Teufel (Nov 21, 2017)

CDG said:


> @Teufel, I'm down with the flu right now.  Can you post a link to the Navy SEAL's Guide To Getting Over the Flu, please?  Those guys know all the best things.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 21, 2017)

Florida173 said:


> Relentless Strike is a pretty good indicator that NDAs don't work.. Especially when people feel they've been slighted



See also:  "Not a Good Day to Die."

I'm actually having lunch with Sean Naylor on Tuesday.


----------



## Teufel (Nov 21, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> See also:  "Not a Good Day to Die."
> 
> I'm actually having lunch with Sean Naylor on Tuesday.


No kidding. I enjoyed that book.


----------



## Florida173 (Nov 21, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> See also:  "Not a Good Day to Die."
> 
> I'm actually having lunch with Sean Naylor on Tuesday.



Outside of the typical guidance from SOCOM when it came out, it's not too bad so far. 

How is the Canadian? He's not well liked


----------



## Isiah6:8 (Nov 22, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> The problem is, most people don't even try to get permission.  They sell out their units and personal integrity for the almighty dollar, because they know they will most likely never get called to account for it...you don't get invited to the unit picnic and your former team mates say mean things about you



This.  I wish I could like this more times.

I will put some personal thoughts on this a little later when I get them sorted out and put together in something more coherent.


----------



## Serenity (Nov 23, 2017)

This is so not relevant but it's almost midnight and I'm pissed off with the system I'm working on, the emails just won't send...but THIS forum is turning me off all NAVY SEAL romances for life! 

I'll just never be able to read another Seal romance again...never.  Thanks, guys!


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 23, 2017)

Teufel said:


> No kidding. I enjoyed his book.



He's a great writer.  I wish he wouldn't write the things he's writing, but he's got talent.  Anything you want me to ask him?


----------



## Teufel (Nov 23, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> He's a great writer.  I wish he wouldn't write the things he's writing, but he's got talent.  Anything you want me to ask him?


He couldn’t write about sensitive subjects if people with access to sensitive information didn’t run their mouths. I can’t think of anything to ask him. I actually have a signed copy of Not a Good Day to Die. I collect autographed books.


----------



## Devildoc (Nov 23, 2017)

Teufel said:


> He couldn’t write about sensitive subjects if people with access to sensitive information didn’t run their mouths. I can’t think of anything to ask him. I actually have a signed copy of Not a Good Day to Die. I collect autographed books.



On this topic, I have an autographed "One Perfect Op" by Dennis Chalker if you're interested. I got it probably 15 years ago and read it twice and it is sitting on my bookshelf collecting dust.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 23, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> See also:  "Not a Good Day to Die."
> 
> I'm actually having lunch with Sean Naylor on Tuesday.




Wow. Have it on my shelf, terrific read and great reporting. I contributed to Naylor's fund a couple of times.

I think it was @busdriver who posted a recent aerial photo where you could still see the rotor blades of Razor 01 on Takur Ghar.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 23, 2017)

Yeah, here it is from his post. He took his formation past the battle site. Look just down the hill from the saddle. Click on the photo a couple of times and you can zoom in. Those have got to be rotors.


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 23, 2017)

It's been awhile since I've read them but Malcolm Macpherson's account was also a good read as were Nate Self's personal reflections.

Razor 01 and 03, further evidence that a RPG can't bring down Chinook.

An AK retrieved from the battle is on display in the heritage museum at PJ schoolhouse at Kirtland:


----------



## 256 (Feb 26, 2018)

I always wondered why that particular unit got the hit for UBL over a certain other particular unit. Is it crazy to think it was because the US government knew they would talk about it and they could keep the other unit out of the news?


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 26, 2018)

256 said:


> Is it crazy to think it was because the US government knew they would talk about it and they could keep the other unit out of the news?



Yes.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 27, 2018)

256 said:


> I always wondered why that particular unit got the hit for UBL over a certain other particular unit. Is it crazy to think it was because the US government knew they would talk about it and they could keep the other unit out of the news?



Well, among other reasons, the overall commander of both of those units came from one of those communities and not the other.  There were many other, more-legitimate reasons too, I'm assuming.


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 27, 2018)

It is my understanding that it was just down to the AO:  one unit had Afghanistan, the other, Iraq.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 27, 2018)

Do you mean Pakistan?


----------



## DasBoot (Feb 27, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> It is my understanding that it was just down to the AO:  one unit had Afghanistan, the other, Iraq.


That’s partly true. It’s still fucked the unit that started off the fight and were failed by their leadership didn’t get to finish the job.


----------



## Gunz (Mar 10, 2018)

One of the greatest blunders in recent warfare: the Franks/Rumsfeld failure to send a Ranger blocking force east of Tora Bora.


----------



## 256 (May 25, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Could not agree more with this post.  I was still in the Corps when Rogue Warrior came out...everyone, and I mean EVERYONE had a paperback copy in their cargo-pants pocket.  As a young impressionable Marine I remember feeling both awe and shock at his antics.  There are some lessons from a leadership point that I still follow today, but his literal celebration of circumventing the 'rules' never sat well with me.
> 
> One story in particular always sticks with me, and for some reason I think of it often.  It's been a few years since I've picked up the book; so I am paraphrasing a bit. Marcinko was in Vietnam and did not like the missions he was being sent on and was required to file a plan by "X" time for the following day.  He'd file it at the last minute and begin it with, "UOD" (Unless Otherwise Directed) and write out the mission he wanted to go on, not the one his command wanted him to go on.  His absolute disdain for nearly everyone whom he reported to was fascinating to read...and from his perspective he was "right".  Those weenie officers above him had been out of the game too long and forgot what it took to fight a war...only Demo Dick and his merry band of SEAL's had what it took to get the real jobs done.  Or something like that.
> 
> I've always believed that book in particular was a literal blueprint for the future perceived disfunction within the SEAL teams.


 
Good post man.


----------



## 256 (May 25, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> One of the greatest blunders in recent warfare: the Franks/Rumsfeld failure to send a Ranger blocking force east of Tora Bora.



Imagine how different lives would be today.


----------



## Gunz (May 25, 2018)

256 said:


> Imagine how different lives would be today.




Remember the "cease fire" the Afghans pulled off with AQ/Taliban? That was another bad idea our people got sucked into. The ruse that covered the retreat into the North West Frontier. That's when Tommy and Donny should've called bullshit and sent the Rangers in.

I wonder.....if we had iced UBL and his top dogs_ then_, would we have put so much expense in time, money and lives, into nation-building?


----------



## 256 (May 25, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Remember the "cease fire" the Afghans pulled off with AQ/Taliban? That was another bad idea our people got sucked into. The ruse that covered the retreat into the North West Frontier. That's when Tommy and Donny should've called bullshit and sent the Rangers in.
> 
> I wonder.....if we had iced UBL and his top dogs_ then_, would we have put so much expense in time, money and lives, into nation-building?



I offen wonder the same thing. The United States needs to cease trying to talk with the Taliban. They’ve proved over and over they aren’t interested in helping to make a stabilized Afghanistan (like that’s possible anyways). The Taliban and its affiliates are the enemy of the US, less time talking, more time destroying them. I’ll give President Obama credit for his never ending Predator missile program and the nuts to go into Pakistan to get UBL with that backing of American military might to protect them (at least from what I’ve read).


----------



## AWP (May 25, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> I wonder.....if we had iced UBL and his top dogs_ then_, would we have put so much expense in time, money and lives, into nation-building?



Yes, there's not a doubt in my mind.


----------



## DA SWO (May 25, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> One of the greatest blunders in recent warfare: the Franks/Rumsfeld failure to send a Ranger blocking force east of Tora Bora.


I blame Rummy more then I blame Franks.


----------



## DozerB (May 25, 2018)

Teufel said:


> Marcinko started it all with his book “rogue warrior” and promoted a culture of the elite cowboy who battled the rules and the close minded system to get the job done.



Much like the autobiography where the E-5 takes on 3-Star generals and “sets them straight” and “tells it how it is” and, amazingly, is always right, in 100% of the scenarios, it is just a totally stale and played out narrative.
But I’d have to imagine that after decades of telling yourself and your teammates that orders and directives and ROEs are really just “head-shed political correctness BS,” and that the man on the ground is always right, regardless of his actions, there are inevitably going to be some ethical failures.

Side note, and lesson for the young guys: being a Rogue Warrior is only cool if you don’t actually end up in prison.


----------



## Marauder06 (May 25, 2018)

DozerB said:


> Much like the autobiography where the E-5 takes on 3-Star generals and “sets them straight” and “tells it how it is” and, amazingly, is always right, in 100% of the scenarios, it is just a totally stale and played out narrative.
> But I’d have to imagine that after decades of telling yourself and your teammates that orders and directives and ROEs are really just “head-shed political correctness BS,” and that the man on the ground is always right, regardless of his actions, there are inevitably going to be some ethical failures.
> 
> Side note, and lesson for the young guys: being a Rogue Warrior is only cool if you don’t actually end up in prison.




PREACH


----------



## Teufel (May 25, 2018)

DozerB said:


> Much like the autobiography where the E-5 takes on 3-Star generals and “sets them straight” and “tells it how it is” and, amazingly, is always right, in 100% of the scenarios, it is just a totally stale and played out narrative.
> But I’d have to imagine that after decades of telling yourself and your teammates that orders and directives and ROEs are really just “head-shed political correctness BS,” and that the man on the ground is always right, regardless of his actions, there are inevitably going to be some ethical failures.
> 
> Side note, and lesson for the young guys: being a Rogue Warrior is only cool if you don’t actually end up in prison.


You are very correct in your analysis. I will add that the man on the ground is not always right. Often, he or she is actually wrong. Commanders have to trust and empower the man on the ground, however, because you can’t lead a battle through the lens of a predator feed. That’s the not the same thing as saying that the man on the ground is always right and infallible. You aren’t right, for example, if you can’t comprehend why the mission, commander’s intent, and ROE are necessary to achieve the commanders desired endstate. Otherwise you’re just left with a bunch of tactical victories, and a slew of operational and strategic failures. I suppose that kind of sums up the reality TV show drama that NSW is living right now.


----------



## Teufel (May 26, 2018)

DozerB said:


> Much like the autobiography where the E-5 takes on 3-Star generals and “sets them straight” and “tells it how it is” and, amazingly, is always right, in 100% of the scenarios, it is just a totally stale and played out narrative.
> But I’d have to imagine that after decades of telling yourself and your teammates that orders and directives and ROEs are really just “head-shed political correctness BS,” and that the man on the ground is always right, regardless of his actions, there are inevitably going to be some ethical failures.
> 
> Side note, and lesson for the young guys: being a Rogue Warrior is only cool if you don’t actually end up in prison.



I saw this on Facebook today. Teufel cannot confirm or deny ever saying this piece of FAKE NEWS.


----------



## CQB (May 27, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> How?  What did they do to stem the tide?


Off the top of my head they legislated.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (May 27, 2018)

...This is AWESOME....

Remember when this used to be true?  Me either.


----------



## CDG (May 27, 2018)

LMAO.  

"If I'm in a bar with a bunch of SEALs, will I know it?"  Fucking Helen Keller and Stevie Wonder's lovechild would know it.


----------



## 256 (May 27, 2018)

Teufel said:


> You are very correct in your analysis. I will add that the man on the ground is not always right. Often, he or she is actually wrong. Commanders have to trust and empower the man on the ground, however, because you can’t lead a battle through the lens of a predator feed. That’s the not the same thing as saying that the man on the ground is always right and infallible. You aren’t right, for example, if you can’t comprehend why the mission, commander’s intent, and ROE are necessary to achieve the commanders desired endstate. Otherwise you’re just left with a bunch of tactical victories, and a slew of operational and strategic failures. I suppose that kind of sums up the reality TV show drama that NSW is living right now.



Seems to follow the direction of our youth these days, no?


----------



## Teufel (May 27, 2018)

Not the young Marines I work with. Especially the ones under my command. They get it.


----------



## 256 (May 27, 2018)

Teufel said:


> Not the young Marines I work with. Especially the ones under my command. They get it.



I truly believe it’s because the strength of the Leadership in the Corps. I saw it in US Army world, conventional Army Infantry units are a world a part from the support ranks. The Corps seems to have that throughout their ranks.


----------



## Devildoc (May 28, 2018)

@Ooh-Rah , that was awesome.  

It reminds me of that old joke: a crossfitter, a vegan, and a Navy SEAL walk into a bar. How do you know? Because they all tell you.


----------



## CDG (May 28, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> @Ooh-Rah , that was awesome.
> 
> It reminds me of that old joke: a crossfitter, a vegan, and a Navy SEAL walk into a bar. How do you know? Because they all tell you.



False.  They don't have to tell you because it's emblazoned on their hats, shirts, and board shorts. Plus the SEAL and CFer have prominent tattoos lest you remain unconvinced.


----------



## Gunz (May 28, 2018)

The East Coast SEALs used to be at Little Creek in Virginia and I'd guess they are still there. I know that because the quonset hut I lived in was right next to the SEAL/UDT quonset huts, and we used to try and out-PT them. We were there running fam-fire exercises and squad organic weapons demos for bussed in midshipmen from USNA. This was in the days before the Frogmen had Oakleys, hair gel and book deals.


----------



## DozerB (May 29, 2018)

Teufel said:


> Not the young Marines I work with. Especially the ones under my command. They get it.



I woke up yesterday thinking, “how should I spend my Memorial Day?”

Thankfully, just as I said it, almost like a divine gift, “The Operator” appeared on Fox News to lecture America about the proper way to honor his friends (the ones he has made millions of dollars off of).

Because (kinda, maybe) shooting UBL (possibly) gives you moral authority to lecture and annoy the entire American population until the day you die.


----------



## Devildoc (May 29, 2018)

DozerB said:


> I woke up yesterday thinking, “how should I spend my Memorial Day?”
> 
> Thankfully, just as I said it, almost like a divine gift, “The Operator” appeared on Fox News to lecture America about the proper way to honor his friends (the ones he has made millions of dollars off of).
> 
> Because (kinda, maybe) shooting UBL (possibly) gives you moral authority to lecture and annoy the entire American population until the day you die.



"Don't let slip an opportunity; it may never come again" (Chinese proverb).  The man is gonna lecture, and he's gonna find a way to make money on it.

Speaking of Memorial Day....everyone and their brother doing the Murph.  I guess all the Private Joes out there who died over the past 200+ years don't get a fancy workout named for them, because their deaths are not as important as his was....


----------



## Ooh-Rah (May 29, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> everyone and their brother doing the Murph. I guess all the Private Joes out there who died over the past 200+ years don't get a fancy workout named for them, because their deaths are not as important as his was....



While it is currently en vogue to mock all things SEAL, I disagree with your statement regarding Murphy. 

If guys want to honor a specific fallen  Warrior by emulating a workout he did, how is that a bad thing and why does that have to diminish the deaths of those who fell before and after him?


----------



## Devildoc (May 29, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> While it is currently en vogue to mock all things SEAL, I disagree with your statement regarding Murphy.
> 
> If guys want to honor a specific fallen  Warrior by emulating a workout he did, how is that a bad thing and why does that have to diminish the deaths of those who fell before and after him?



Some of the people who did it, didn't know who he was (for one).  One person told me "It's the cool thing to do" (because, you know, crossfit and all).  One of my coworkers (she does CF) asked this morning if I did The Murph; when I asked her who he was, she didn't know.  All she knew was it is something you do on memorial Day.

It doesn't sit well with me.  If you are going to do it, you should at least know the who and why.  And yes, there is a general thread within _some_ of the CF-GR-SEAL fit workouts that if you are not/were not SO, you are lesser than.


----------



## CDG (May 29, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> While it is currently en vogue to mock all things SEAL, I disagree with your statement regarding Murphy.
> 
> If guys want to honor a specific fallen  Warrior by emulating a workout he did, how is that a bad thing and why does that have to diminish the deaths of those who fell before and after him?



It's not guys doing it because they want to honor anything. It's a marketed event that has turned into nothing more than a CF talking point. People don't do the workouts for "regular" dudes that died. Some people do it with the understanding of what it's for, but most don't.


----------



## DozerB (May 29, 2018)

CrossFit Athletes Prepare to Honor Lt. Michael Murphy with Hundreds of Quarter Squats, Half Push-ups

It's just too perfect.


----------



## AWP (May 29, 2018)

Murph had this workout, parts of it, whatever, and CF "honored" him with the name. "Honored" is in quotes because CF has shown itself to be a marketing juggernaut and cult. How many deceased, uniformed or civilian, have workouts in their honor?

My money (yes, a pun) is on a cash grab.


----------



## SpitfireV (May 29, 2018)

I went to a crossfit thing here and they had all those ones up on the wall. They said they were all American heroes. Cool but this is NZ, ya know? We've got our own impressive soldiers they could have been named after, if that's what you want to name them after. The place was owned by an American woman her ex-NZ mil husband so I can sort of see both sides but we don't usually go for that kind of thing down here. 

Calling them "A Bit of A Bastard" or "A Wanker of a Workout" would probably fit in better here.


----------



## CDG (May 29, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> I went to a crossfit thing here and they had all those ones up on the wall. They said they were all American heroes. Cool but this is NZ, ya know? We've got our own impressive soldiers they could have been named after, if that's what you want to name them after. The place was owned by an American woman her ex-NZ mil husband so I can sort of see both sides but we don't usually go for that kind of thing down here.
> 
> Calling them "A Bit of A Bastard" or "A Wanker of a Workout" would probably fit in better here.



CrossFit HQ is the one that establishes all the "official" Hero workouts.  Affiliates tend to fall in line based on that.  The only time I have seen differences is gyms naming a workout after someone that either used to train there, or knew someone who did.


----------



## SpitfireV (May 29, 2018)

CDG said:


> CrossFit HQ is the one that establishes all the "official" Hero workouts.  Affiliates tend to fall in line based on that.  The only time I have seen differences is gyms naming a workout after someone that either used to train there, or knew someone who did.



Yeah but honestly, who would know if they'd changed it.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (May 29, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Some of the people who did it, didn't know who he was (for one).  One person told me "It's the cool thing to do" (because, you know, crossfit and all).  One of my coworkers (she does CF) asked this morning if I did The Murph; when I asked her who he was, she didn't know.  All she knew was it is something you do on memorial Day.
> 
> It doesn't sit well with me.  If you are going to do it, you should at least know the who and why.  And yes, there is a general thread within _some_ of the CF-GR-SEAL fit workouts that if you are not/were not SO, you are lesser than.



Thanks for the response on this, my question was asked out of genuine curiosity.  I was not aware of the Cross Fit connection, in context your frustration makes a lot more sense to me.  I've removed my "disagree" from your post.


----------



## CDG (May 29, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> Yeah but honestly, who would know if they'd changed it.


A lot of people probably would, honestly.  They list all of the Hero workouts on their website, and CFers are pretty religious about looking at that site and knowing as many of the named workouts as possible.


----------



## AWP (May 29, 2018)

CDG said:


> A lot of people probably would, honestly.  They list all of the Hero workouts on their website, and CFers are pretty religious about looking at that site and knowing as many of the named workouts as possible.



You can't sniff asses and establish a pecking order without knowing someone's Fran time.


----------



## SpitfireV (May 29, 2018)

CDG said:


> A lot of people probably would, honestly.  They list all of the Hero workouts on their website, and CFers are pretty religious about looking at that site and knowing as many of the named workouts as possible.



Fair enough. I didn't hang around long enough to know the ins and outs- as a student it was far too expensive in the end.


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## SigmaWolf77 (Apr 28, 2019)

Teufel said:


> View attachment 20300View attachment 20303View attachment 20304View attachment 20301View attachment 20306View attachment 20307View attachment 20305View attachment 20302


Hahahaha just make an Adam sandler movie with him fast roping as a delta ninja into american history and you'll have a boat load of recruits.
Side note: david Rutherford has some good freaking energy, Rut is motivating


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## SigmaWolf77 (Apr 28, 2019)

Teufel said:


> In their own words: "Selling the Trident": Navy SEALs describe a culture in crisis, in their own words - CBS News
> 
> “The Death of our quiet professionalism continues to erode at our ethos, and endangers our Teammates overseas, not to mention our families at home.”


That's why I always loved how recon marines and SF guys never were braggarts.


----------



## Grunt (Apr 28, 2019)

SigmaWolf77 said:


> That's why I always loved how recon marines and SF guys never were braggarts.



Believe me, both of those groups have their share of braggarts. Ego and Pride aren't respecters of persons or groups.


----------



## Mac_NZ (Apr 28, 2019)

SpitfireV said:


> I went to a crossfit thing here and they had all those ones up on the wall. They said they were all American heroes. Cool but this is NZ, ya know? We've got our own impressive soldiers they could have been named after, if that's what you want to name them after. The place was owned by an American woman her ex-NZ mil husband so I can sort of see both sides but we don't usually go for that kind of thing down here.
> 
> Calling them "A Bit of A Bastard" or "A Wanker of a Workout" would probably fit in better here.



This one is Crossfit HQ official.  RX Fitness, Mount Crossfit, SASSfit and Sabre Fit all have their own unofficial workouts named after lads.  Go hit up Mark at Crossfit Takaknini, he'll run you through Tama if you really want   He's been running WODs named after famous battles NZ fought in all through the Anzac day week.
---------------------------------
Cpl. Luke Tamatea
Workout of the Day

Tama
For time:
800-meter single-arm barbell farmers carry, 45/35 lb.
31 toes-to-bars
31 push-ups
31 front squats, 95/65 lb.
400-meter single-arm barbell farmers carry, 95/65 lb.
31 toes-to-bars
31 push-ups
31 hang power cleans, 135/95 lb.
200-meter single-arm barbell farmers carry, 135/95 lb.


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## SigmaWolf77 (Apr 29, 2019)

Grunt said:


> Believe me, both of those groups have their share of braggarts. Ego and Pride aren't respecters of persons or groups.



Definitely true, I guess by braggart I meant , as far as broad spectrum, it hasn't been apparent in the media that those guys were flaunting or cashing in on their service compared to seals. I mean those book covers Teufel posted speak for themselves, no disrespect to any men/women that serve anywhere in any branch.


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## Blizzard (Apr 29, 2019)

"The media" decides which stories they want to push.


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## SpitfireV (Apr 30, 2019)

Mac_NZ said:


> This one is Crossfit HQ official.  RX Fitness, Mount Crossfit, SASSfit and Sabre Fit all have their own unofficial workouts named after lads.  Go hit up Mark at Crossfit Takaknini, he'll run you through Tama if you really want   He's been running WODs named after famous battles NZ fought in all through the Anzac day week.
> ---------------------------------
> Cpl. Luke Tamatea
> Workout of the Day
> ...



I think I'd need to do "basic treadmill" first


----------



## Doofus (Jun 1, 2019)

A couple of the SEALs I meet where cool and told my dont be on that Hollywood shit and work hard and you good.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 1, 2019)

Doofus said:


> A couple of the SEALs I meet where cool and told my dont be on that Hollywood shit and work hard and you good.


Dude. Cease and f’ing desist.  You are not funny, your grammar is a disaster and your posts contribute nothing of substance. 

Take a voluntary timeout for a few days and just read the board and get a feel for it. At this point you are becoming an unnecessary distraction.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2019)

On. Fucking. Twitter. What the fuck is happening.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2019)

Navy SEALs Kicked Out of Iraq Over 'Deterioration of Good Order and Discipline'


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## Kraut783 (Jul 24, 2019)

Holy crap!


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## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2019)

I am gonna hold judgement and take facts as they come. Not saying either way...

But what do you have to do to have the SOCOM Twitter release a statement and end it with ‘...all allegations will be investigated thoroughly.’

That’s uh, not good.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 24, 2019)

That's insane to publish via twitter.


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## Blizzard (Jul 24, 2019)

@amlove21's to the point in your initial post...  Why the fuck is this on Twitter?! Are there no more silent professionals in special operations?


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## Blizzard (Jul 24, 2019)

This is supposedly over "alcohol abuse" within SEAL Team 7?!

This is same Team, but not necessarily the same platoon, Gallagher belonged to...coincidence? legit? retribution?  Regardless, still not sure why the dirty laundry is being aired publicly.


----------



## Grunt (Jul 24, 2019)

Airing our dirty laundry like that really does wonders for our image with our enemies.

Nice....


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## AWP (Jul 24, 2019)

Grunt said:


> Airing our dirty laundry like that really does wonders for our image with our enemies.
> 
> Nice....



It may give them some propaganda material, but Ithey also know that getting face fucked by five five six is a potential outcome.

---

RE: the SOCOM tweets. was the Team's behavior that bad or is SOCOM putting NSW on notice that it is tired of their shit? If the latter, that probably means the appropriate (and quiet) channels were tried and ignored. Regardless, a few more officers just saw their careers sent to the head.


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## EqualReaction (Jul 24, 2019)

SOCOM has a Twitter? Jesus Lord Almighty.


----------



## Blizzard (Jul 24, 2019)

EqualReaction said:


> SOCOM has a Twitter? Jesus Lord Almighty.


Yes, and apparently they're taking lessons from the CINC on how to use it.


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## Viper1 (Jul 25, 2019)

Own the message or the message owns you. 

Given the rash of incidents even during the command focus on ethics, this shows that action is being taken. I’m sure the full story will come out later, it always does.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 25, 2019)

Oh man, I'm shocked...


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 25, 2019)

Big Navy -


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## Box (Jul 25, 2019)

Being busted out on Twitter by USSOCOM for your chicanery cannot possibly be a career enhancing event.


*POTUS*: I love posting wild and crazy shit on Twitter.
*USSOCOM: * Hold my beer................


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 25, 2019)

SEAL story is ‘everywhere’, even the dopey morning shows I listen to.


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## Devildoc (Jul 25, 2019)

Used to be units and organizations took care of their shit in-house and on the down-low, but I think NSW in particular is still feeling the sting of the last couple years' worth of window-licking personnel that they are compelled to be above board on everything now.

But whatever the reason, it's a bad time to be in Naval special warfare, unless you toe the line. If that's the case now looks like there's some remarkable advancement opportunity and career growth.


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## DA SWO (Jul 25, 2019)

A GO 1 violation got these guys sent home.
I'm throwing the bullshit flag on that.
NavSpecWarCom needs to know it's officers and will not command Joint units until this shit gets cleaned up.  Then watch how fast it happens


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## DasBoot (Jul 25, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> Used to be units and organizations took care of their shit in-house and on the down-low, but I think NSW in particular is still feeling the sting of the last couple years' worth of window-licking personnel that they are compelled to be above board on everything now.
> 
> But whatever the reason, it's a bad time to be in Naval special warfare, unless you toe the line. If that's the case now looks like there's some remarkable advancement opportunity and career growth.


Sucks for them (great for us) because even the good dudes are going to feel the sting of not deploying. They already aren’t going out like they used to (and TBH everything I’ve gathered from old timers and my own knowledge of SOF history is that they never had the presence in theater that the PR machine presented). This will only make them less appealing as an assist for any SOTF on the “white side” or joint task force on the JSOC side.


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## Devildoc (Jul 25, 2019)

DasBoot said:


> Sucks for them (great for us) because even the good dudes are going to feel the sting of not deploying. They already aren’t going out like they used to (and TBH everything I’ve gathered from old timers and my own knowledge of SOF history is that they never had the presence in theater that the PR machine presented). This will only make them less appealing as an assist for any SOTF on the “white side” or joint task force on the JSOC side.



Yes, the good dudes ARE going to feel the sting.  Hopefully those young studs stick around to become old studs and leaders and lead their teams right.


----------



## Brill (Jul 25, 2019)

Let’s be honest: that’s fucked up leadership at McDill to decertify the ENTIRE SEAL platoon. Sure some platoon leaders/members are jacked but the ENTIRE unit cannot execute its combat mission?  When has a unit suffered because of individuals’ actions?

My crystal ball shows a sudden influx of 19th and 20th Groupers with tridents within the next few years!


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 25, 2019)

lindy said:


> Let’s be honest: that’s fucked up leadership at McDill to decertify the ENTIRE SEAL platoon. Sure some platoon leaders/members are jacked but the ENTIRE unit cannot execute its combat mission?  When has a unit suffered because of individuals’ actions?
> 
> My crystal ball shows a sudden influx of 19th and 20th Groupers with tridents within the next few years!


No different then decertifying an ODA.


----------



## ShamgarTheJudge (Jul 25, 2019)

I suppose they tried this and failed...


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## Marauder06 (Jul 26, 2019)

A GO #1 violation for drinking got them sent home early?  My money is on there being a LOT more to this story than a little casual alcohol consumption.   I’m calling shenanigans.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 26, 2019)

They need to start decertifying entire Teams.  The SEAL culture has gotten completely out of control.


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## Teufel (Jul 26, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> A GO #1 violation for drinking got them sent home early?  My money is on there being a LOT more to this story than a little casual alcohol consumption.   I’m calling shenanigans.


One of the articles said there was also sexual misconduct with service members. Wouldn’t surprise me if that started this whole chain of events.


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## Brill (Jul 26, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> No different then decertifying an ODA.



I thought a SEAL platoon was equal to a SF Company; 6 12-man teams and an ODB.

Nope: just 19.



> Foxtrot Platoon — including 19 SEALs and four support troops — was in Kuwait on Thursday, en route to Seal Team 7’s base at Naval Base Coronado near San Diego. The unit was not immediately replaced in Iraq, increasing the burdens on other American troops there, but the Navy said in a statement that “the loss of confidence in this case outweighed potential operational risk” from their absence.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 26, 2019)

_The statement did not say what led to the decision, but a defense official with knowledge of the situation said that a female servicemember working with their platoon reported being sexually assaulted by one of the SEALs during the Fourth of July holiday weekend. The official, who spoke on the condition of anonymity due to the sensitivity of the situation, said the report triggered scrutiny of the platoon, including drinking while deployed. _

Alcohol consumption as a contributing cause to a sexual assault... who knew?

_The SEALs declined to cooperate with investigators, prompting Hill to send them home for both that and the alcohol use, the official said._

That's a bold move, Cotton.  Let's see if it pays off for them.

Sexual assault report led to investigation of Navy SEAL team kicked out of Iraq for drinking alcohol, officials say


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 26, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> The SEAL culture has gotten completely out of control.


----------



## EqualReaction (Jul 26, 2019)

I am curious on how many potential candidates have decided to go elsewhere because of all of these recent incidents.  You have to know when SOCOM blasts this stuff on Twitter then someone up high is sick of recurrent unprofessional behavior of some of the guys in NSW.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 26, 2019)

It just keeps stacking up and who knows where it'll go. Time to snort some more blow in Little Creek and wait for the coke-dust to clear.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 26, 2019)

A portion of General Clarke's testimony to the House Armed Services Committee:



_"...In the recent past, members of our SOF units have been accused of violating that trust and failing to meet our high standards of ethical conduct this command demands. The overwhelming majority of our teammates continue to serve with honor and distinction as our ethos demands, and anything less than 100% is unacceptable. We understand that criminal misconduct erodes the very trust that enables our success. We continue our efforts to inculcate and reinforce our core values. Toward this end, USSOCOM provided input to a report the Assistant Secretary of Defense, Special Operations/Low Intensity Conflict (ASD/SOLIC) submitted to Congress on a comprehensive review of our ethics and professionalism programs, as directed by the Fiscal Year 2019 National Defense Authorization Act (NDAA). We also just completed a USSOCOM-wide directed 90-day review of our core values and their role in the SOF culture. The results are currently being analyzed for review and consideration for any follow-on actions. You have my commitment that we will hold members of our SOF enterprise accountable to our ethical, moral, and discipline standards, and preserving the trust America has in its SOF...."_


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## Marauder06 (Jul 26, 2019)

I can't think of many direct-action ground SOF units that haven't had some kind of scandal over the years.  There was the SF guy who got busted *bringing a shitload of cocaine into the U*S a few years back, and who can forget the time many years ago when a handful of *Rangers robbed a freakin' bank*.

But damn if it doesn't seem like the SEALs have disproportionately more catastrophic public fuckups than any other SOF unit.


----------



## CryptoLingUSMC (Jul 26, 2019)

.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 26, 2019)

I understand where you're coming from on the fake allegations, it happens far too often.  But one of the best defenses against allegations of wrongdoing, is... to not do anything wrong.  That won't shield you from people who just make stuff up (see also Brett Kavanaugh) but it will keep you from getting hemmed up over stuff you DID do..

The sexual assault allegation involves a "senior NCO" on the team.  You can't simply ignore something like that.  Then when the investigation started, the drinking thing (and probably a whole lot of other stuff we'll hear about later) came to light.  Then, apparently, EVERY MEMBER OF THE TEAM decided to take the 5th rather than cooperate with the investigation.  That's sketchy as hell, and indicates some major problems going on in that unit. 

What would you do, as the commander, in that situation?  I would have brought them all home too, before someone gets, you  know, murdered.


----------



## CryptoLingUSMC (Jul 26, 2019)

.


----------



## Box (Jul 26, 2019)

...maybe they will have another "I am Spartacus" surprise like the end of the Eddie Gallagher trial.

_Sir, it was ME that drank booze and assaulted that woman
No sir, it was ME
No, I raped that woman after violating general order #1
Sir, I saw that the girl was in danger, so I sexually assaulted her by myself to keep the whole platoon out of her drawers
Master Chief, I cannot tell a lie - it was me that drank all that booze and grabbed that female in an inappropriate matter_

In a social environment where people KNOW that the ethics police are hiding under every rock waiting to report you - why do people continue to jump up and down on their dick with flaming golf shoes.
Did the command go "full retard" by posting this on Twitter? 
Some would say yes.
Did the command commit the alleged behavior or did the platoon mates misbehave?

Now, because a few jackasses decided to play fuck-fuck games, the rest of us are going to be kept busy preparing slides for all of these fucking "Ethics Panels"  and "professionalism Working Groups" that we keep having to do.

Taking the 5th is another way of saying "fuck you I did it - but fuck you anyway"
You cant get pissed off about the commander losing his mind when you show up for formation wearing a pair of clown shoes.


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 26, 2019)

I understand why the command went public with Twitter, above-the-fold stories in the Navy Times, put out in email, and via interoffice memo.  Anything less would cast a shadow of trying to sweep it under the rug even if that's not true.  I understand it, but I don't necessarily agree with it.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jul 26, 2019)

_"The message is clear. There will be no due process. The "victim" is always to be believed. The accused is forever fucked, while the accuser is forever protected from anything that might be contorted to be argued as retaliation."_

This is so true, flash back to Iraq 2007....we (CID) investigated a sexual assault, investigation cleared the suspect and we had proof of the victim lying about the offense, we opened a case on the victim in the system late one night....CID BN called us first thing in the morning and advised the case would not be opened and to drop it. Half our detachment were reservist and full time LEO's in the civilian world...we went off on our AD SAC and caused a pretty big stink...CID BN Commander flew down to us and had a talk....command was a little concerned.

Basically the unwritten rule was, there will be no criminal action on any victim that falsely claims being sexually assaulted (OCONUS), just quietly send them home.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 26, 2019)

CryptoLingUSMC said:


> Meanwhile, China/Russia/Iran/North Korea laugh with glee as we defeat ourselves.


Out of everything 'wrong' with the military, what you write is the somber thought that often keeps me up at night.


----------



## DasBoot (Jul 26, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> I can't think of many direct-action ground SOF units that haven't had some kind of scandal over the years.  There was the SF guy who got busted *bringing a shitload of cocaine into the U*S a few years back, and who can forget the time many years ago when a handful of *Rangers robbed a freakin' bank*.
> 
> But damn if it doesn't seem like the SEALs have disproportionately more catastrophic public fuckups than any other SOF unit.


I mean a couple tabs and private’s just getting state side CQB and SSE training isn’t nearly as bad as a rape... And yes I am just sticking up for my <$> Batt.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 26, 2019)

DasBoot said:


> I mean a couple tabs and private’s just getting state side CQB and SSE training isn’t nearly as bad as a rape... And yes I am just sticking up for my <$> Batt.



They need a LOT of retraining.  Did you read the write up of that case? Clown shoes start to finish, complete with “I did it as a political statement because my bn was murdering people downrange.”


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 26, 2019)

Not really isolated incidents. 

Dishonorable discharge stands for lance corporal sentenced for bludgeoning, nearly killing another Marine at the barracks smoke pit

Marine lance corporal getting booted for ‘advocating supremacist ideology’

Okinawa-based Marine sentenced to six years for sexual assault, harassment

Former Marine accused of sex trafficking dishonorably discharged

Investigation reveals creepy details behind Marine colonel’s firing

Investigation reveals creepy details behind Marine colonel’s firing

I'm sure I could easily find plenty more if I put in any type of effort. Now yes, before anyone says it, I recognize that the Corps is a lot larger in size than NSW, but I'm willing to bet that every unit has about equal number of incidents, it's only that NSW right now has had 3 very public incidents in the past 12 months and Hollywood has a hard-on for SEALs (some of which is the SEALs own fault).


----------



## DasBoot (Jul 26, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> They need a LOT of retraining.  Did you read the write up of that case? Clown shoes start to finish, complete with “I did it as a political statement because my bn was murdering people downrange.”


Lol holy shit didn’t know that. I meant to pick up “Ranger Games” and get more info on it. I meant that post as a tongue in cheek joke sir. 

With that said- I still think raping women and murdering fellow Americans is far worse than isolated incidents of bad behavior. Granted 7th Group has a lot of shit that’s gone on the last two years. They seem to be dealing with it though.


----------



## CryptoLingUSMC (Jul 26, 2019)

.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 27, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> Not really isolated incidents.
> 
> Dishonorable discharge stands for lance corporal sentenced for bludgeoning, nearly killing another Marine at the barracks smoke pit
> 
> ...




The Corps is not only a much larger sample pool but the levels of training/maturity/professionalism between the average Marine and NSW team guys can't compare.

There are too many variables. Combat vets with multiple deployments or guys who've spent their enlistment in garrison. There's going to be different issues, different environments that effect behavior.

Post-war you've got all these salts with deployments under their belts back in garrison, and all these rookie trigger-pullers who joined up too late to get into the fight...and they're all sitting around with bottled-up energy itching for action.

That energy has to be channeled somewhere...If it's channeled in the wrong direction, i.e. drugs, alcohol, partying, discipline and morale erodes.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 27, 2019)

I'm tracking NSW and USMC are different. I just think you have bad apples everywhere. Sometimes, unfortunately, people still manage to slip through the cracks even after you think your pipeline will catch the bad characters. And worse, you have people who normally wouldn't do it but see others getting away with it so they lower their moral compass.


----------



## Teufel (Jul 27, 2019)

Bad cultures nurture bad behavior and produce a higher number of bad apples.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 27, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> I understand where you're coming from on the fake allegations, it happens far too often.  But one of the best defenses against allegations of wrongdoing, is... to not do anything wrong.  That won't shield you from people who just make stuff up (see also Brett Kavanaugh) but it will keep you from getting hemmed up over stuff you DID do..
> 
> The sexual assault allegation involves a "senior NCO" on the team.  You can't simply ignore something like that.  Then when the investigation started, the drinking thing (and probably a whole lot of other stuff we'll hear about later) came to light.  Then, apparently, EVERY MEMBER OF THE TEAM decided to take the 5th rather than cooperate with the investigation.  That's sketchy as hell, and indicates some major problems going on in that unit.
> 
> What would you do, as the commander, in that situation?  I would have brought them all home too, before someone gets, you  know, murdered.


If the investigators asked everyone about personal alcohol use then the 5th is the way to go.
If they came in and said they didn't care about booze and GO1, but were just looking at the assault issue then taking the 5th is a dick move.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 27, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> _"The message is clear. There will be no due process. The "victim" is always to be believed. The accused is forever fucked, while the accuser is forever protected from anything that might be contorted to be argued as retaliation."_
> 
> This is so true, flash back to Iraq 2007....we (CID) investigated a sexual assault, investigation cleared the suspect and we had proof of the victim lying about the offense, we opened a case on the victim in the system late one night....CID BN called us first thing in the morning and advised the case would not be opened and to drop it. Half our detachment were reservist and full time LEO's in the civilian world...we went off on our AD SAC and caused a pretty big stink...CID BN Commander flew down to us and had a talk....command was a little concerned.
> 
> Basically the unwritten rule was, there will be no criminal action on any victim that falsely claims being sexually assaulted (OCONUS), just quietly send them home.


IIRC it's a written rule.

Ignore bad behavior by the accuser because some women said their violations of the rules prevented them from reporting assaults (AF Academy scandal).


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 28, 2019)




----------



## DasBoot (Jul 29, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> View attachment 28684


Sineparisandaperrys is the best instagram page ever.


----------

