# Question on NCO Promotion Waivers



## EverSoLost (Jan 13, 2009)

Maybe I'm losing my mind on this.  But I'm scouring through AR600-8-9 looking for the area that defines the minimum Time in Service, and Time in Grade w/ waivers for E5-E9.  But it's difficult for me to provide any advice as to when to best use these waivers when inquiries are made.

I know that all NCO's are allowed two career waivers one for each of the aforementioned categories.  So I assume that they submit their own 4187 along with their 4100 etc for promotion.

So here's my question.

I know there are pretty standard times in which it is advised to use these waivers and some pretty standard areas wherein it's not advised for the Soldier to utilize these.

Did you ever waiver your NCO promotions (Above your 5's)?

If so what ranks did you use them?

I ask this because the people that ask me *trust me* and I dont want to make a best guess with someones career, or only poll those directly in my small world, outside perspective would be extremely helpful.

thanks in advance for your help.


----------



## car (Jan 14, 2009)

Soldiers/NCOs don't ask for waivers, their supervisors put them in for them. That would be like a Soldier writing himself up for an award.

For NCOs theres a primary zone and a secondary zone. In the secondary zone, the reqirements for TIS and/or TIG can be waived up to IIRC 90 days.

Every month the 1SG gets a stack of printouts from PAC (AAA-19something) with a list all Soldiers in the company and their "status" (non-eligible, eligible with waiver, Primary zone, etc.)

What I would do was call my PSGs in and run down the lists: "Smith?" "Hell, no!" "Jones?" "Yes." An on and on.

If a Soldier was in the secondary for either TIS or TIG, I made the PSG justify it - PT score, marksmanship score, job performance.......

Then I'd have to cicle "Yes" or "No" for each individual, take it to the commander - "Sign this, sir," and take it to PAC. Those individuals who got "Yes" circled by their names went to the board the next month. And God help a PSG who recommended a waiver and the kid fucked up on the board.


----------



## BLACKMags (Jan 14, 2009)

Hmm my unit just promotes my soldiers without any regard to me...don't know what that is all about.


----------



## AWP (Jan 14, 2009)

car said:


> That would be like a Soldier writing himself up for an award.



Next thing you'll tell us is that NCO's don't write their own NCOERs.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Jan 14, 2009)

car said:


> And God help a PSG who recommended a waiver and the kid fucked up on the board.



Gotta love when someone who's due up for promotion can't even remember how to do a right face or left face, let alone knocks like a fucking pussy, eh?


----------



## EverSoLost (Jan 14, 2009)

car said:


> Soldiers/NCOs don't ask for waivers, their supervisors put them in for them. That would be like a Soldier writing himself up for an award.


I think then perhaps I was given incorrect information.  I'm headed to BN today so I'll get to ask the PSNCO then. :)



> For NCOs theres a primary zone and a secondary zone. In the secondary zone, the reqirements for TIS and/or TIG can be waived up to IIRC 90 days.





> Every month the 1SG gets a stack of printouts from PAC (AAA-19something) with a list all Soldiers in the company and their "status" (non-eligible, eligible with waiver, Primary zone, etc.)


I know our BN gets this about every 3 months, but the only time I have ever seen it was while I was helping out in the S1.  I asked if BN sent us the list as well but my answer was "We're too busy".  I'll inquire again today.



> What I would do was call my PSGs in and run down the lists: "Smith?" "Hell, no!" "Jones?" "Yes." An on and on.
> 
> If a Soldier was in the secondary for either TIS or TIG, I made the PSG justify it - PT score, marksmanship score, job performance.......
> 
> Then I'd have to cicle "Yes" or "No" for each individual, take it to the commander - "Sign this, sir," and take it to PAC. Those individuals who got "Yes" circled by their names went to the board the next month. And God help a PSG who recommended a waiver and the kid fucked up on the board.


To my knowledge the Little Army is currently only practicing paper boards.  

thanks for your HELP!  I'll inquire today but I'm fairly sure I'll get the same answer from her I have in the past "This isn't Big Army, we do things differently".  But it never hurts to ask :)

thanks so much all!





Freefalling said:


> Next thing you'll tell us is that NCO's don't write their own NCOERs.



This actually seems to happens pretty frequently, this and the whole PT card shuffle.   As well I have a Soldier attempt to put themselves in for an award about every 3 months or so.  But I always send them to the Top.


----------



## rv808 (Jan 14, 2009)

One thing I never understood is when they frock an E7 into a 1SG job. You can't tell me the government can't afford to pay them for one of the toughest jobs in the military. If it is a TIS thing or something, then why dn't they make it waiverable or change the system to adjust to the time?  They do it for officers, (Army O's make CPT 36 months now from commissioning) so why not SNOCs?

They have the rank, the title and position of it....but not the pay.  They are already getting screwed, but the thing that really gets me is that their time being rated as a 1SG does not count until they actually pin on E8.  

If we can't pay the man for the job, let's at least take care of them by rating them while they are in the position.


----------



## AWP (Jan 14, 2009)

Oh hell no, rv, you can't think like that. You sound like the welfare of your men is important to you. No, no, no, no....Fail. Report to your Captain's Career Course for reprogramming. 

You have a long way to go to be a field grade. I'm kind of saddened by this.


----------



## rv808 (Jan 14, 2009)

Freefalling said:


> Oh hell no, rv, you can't think like that. You sound like the welfare of your men is important to you. No, no, no, no....Fail. Report to your Captain's Career Course for reprogramming.
> 
> You have a long way to go to be a field grade. I'm kind of saddened by this.




hahah.....That is exactly what happened to my 1SG, and I still don't understand it to this day.

The worst field grade I have ever met is the senior S6 where I am.  He didn't know the difference between a CD Rom drive and drivers needed to make it work.  True story!


----------



## AWP (Jan 14, 2009)

rv808 said:


> hahah.....That is exactly what happened to my 1SG, and I still don't understand it to this day.
> 
> The worst field grade I have ever met is the senior S6 where I am.  He didn't know the difference between a CD Rom drive and drivers needed to make it work.  True story!



I like my job so I won't comment directly except to say that I feel your pain.


----------



## Titus Pullo (Jan 14, 2009)

car said:


> Soldiers/NCOs don't ask for waivers, their supervisors put them in for them. That would be like a Soldier writing himself up for an award.
> 
> For NCOs theres a primary zone and a secondary zone. In the secondary zone, the reqirements for TIS and/or TIG can be waived up to IIRC 90 days.
> 
> ...



Sounds almost exactly how our 1SG did this 20 years ago. All the PSG's would be in the 1SG's office arguing for which Joe would be getting which waivers and when they would be getting them.


----------



## surgicalcric (Jan 14, 2009)

I would be so bold as to say, an E4 or junior NCO who has to ask for a waiver has probably not distinguished himself from his peers in a manner to be deserving of such... 

That is presuming said soldier's NCO leadership is doing what it should.

Crip


----------



## Polar Bear (Jan 14, 2009)

Freefalling said:


> Next thing you'll tell us is that NCO's don't write their own NCOERs.


 

Damn you beat me to it


----------



## EverSoLost (Jan 14, 2009)

surgicalcric said:


> I would be so bold as to say, an E4 or junior NCO who has to ask for a waiver has probably not distinguished himself from his peers in a manner to be deserving of such...
> 
> That is presuming said soldier's NCO leadership is doing what it should.
> 
> Crip


I believe that with all the Jr. Enlisted, it's very feasible to be fast tracked 1-5 by distinguishing yourself amongst your peers depending on the Unit and the Soldiers in the Unit would define what distinguishing is, so in essence I agree with you :).  

The soldier in question is a 6 looking for his 7's the individual had a break in service and lost his TIG when returning to the Guard though which makes it slightly more complicated (for me) which is why I was seeking direction here.  I'm the company clerk or Admin NCO (relatively new at the job too) so much of the time people address me with questions related to their careers, I probably should have clarified my line of questioning rather than being vague.  My apologies

But CAR did answer the question for the most part.  My current understanding is there are no limits to the waivers even for SNCO's and it's command discretion as to who is granted them.


----------



## digrar (Jan 15, 2009)

Freefalling said:


> Oh hell no, rv, you can't think like that. You sound like the welfare of your men is important to you. No, no, no, no....Fail..




But what about the rank on the beret thing? Surely that makes up for being screwed on everything else...


----------



## AWP (Jan 15, 2009)

digrar said:


> But what about the rank on the beret thing? Surely that makes up for being screwed on everything else...



I thought you were an Aussie NCO, not a 4-star US general.


----------



## digrar (Jan 16, 2009)

I didn't get to the lofty heights of Lance Corporal without knowing how to do the dirty on everyone and participating in the back stabbing and going jack on your mates workshops.


----------

