# Gardenplot



## RetPara (Aug 18, 2014)

The historical name for civil disturbance operations.   So the Missouri National Guard gets to write a new chapter in Ferguson.   I would post a link, but all the stories devolve into accounts of the autopsy results.  

This is a topic I have taken a LOT of personal interest in since my Battalion deployed to Fort Indiantown Gap in August of '80 to fine tune some Cuban 'tudes.  There were still some good people being detained....

Going back into history, all the way to the Boston Massacere, C/D Ops have seldom gone well.   There are just too many ways to provoke, tired, uncertain, and armed groups (LE) to over-reacting.  Last nights molotov cocktail throwing I believe was a planned event to ensure the State Police did use gas.  It would be a classic tactic for the throwers to be on the fringes, move quickly to center front, throw, and run like hell before the gas went off.  Numerous reports also have firearm/sniping attacks on LE earlier in the evening.   To me this is starting to sound more like Watts or Detroit.

What is the current state of the NG when it comes to being equipped and trained for CD ops.  IME, it's a hard conversion that can wear quickly.


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## AWP (Aug 18, 2014)

RetPara said:


> What is the current state of the NG when it comes to being equipped and trained for CD ops.  IME, it's a hard conversion that can wear quickly.


 
I can't speak for all units, but even in the 90's the Guard didn't train for this. Sure, it was a task, but I can only think of one or two battalions in FL that did anything for CD and those were one-off events. Maybe others train for it more, but even when it was State METL no one touched it. No one even talked about it.

Pure unadulterated speculation: They'll activate a unit, bring in those who answered the phone (a composite company/ unit wouldn't surprise me), Snuffy will see the equipment for the first (if he's lucky the second) time, and after a few drills/ scenarios they'll get on the trucks.

I hope I'm wrong, but even FL had a very haphazard approach to dealing with hurricanes. Fortunately, good soldiers are flexible, but riots....that's a bit different than dealing with post-hurricane ops.


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## RetPara (Aug 18, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> Pure unadulterated speculation: They'll activate a unit, bring in those who answered the phone (a composite company/ unit wouldn't surprise me), Snuffy will see the equipment for the first (if he's lucky the second) time, and after a few drills/ scenarios they'll get on the trucks.



It's worse than that.   The Ohio NG unit at Kent State had just come off two weeks of strike duty.  A composite unit is the worse of all options.  It's a formula for disaster.  

Give it 5 days and if the situation doesn't lighten up... look for Federal troops.


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## reed11b (Aug 18, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> I can't speak for all units, but even in the 90's the Guard didn't train for this. Sure, it was a task, but I can only think of one or two battalions in FL that did anything for CD and those were one-off events. Maybe others train for it more, but even when it was State METL no one touched it. No one even talked about it.
> 
> Pure unadulterated speculation: They'll activate a unit, bring in those who answered the phone (a composite company/ unit wouldn't surprise me), Snuffy will see the equipment for the first (if he's lucky the second) time, and after a few drills/ scenarios they'll get on the trucks.
> 
> I hope I'm wrong, but even FL had a very haphazard approach to dealing with hurricanes. Fortunately, good soldiers are flexible, but riots....that's a bit different than dealing with post-hurricane ops.


Composite units are unlikely, but limited to no training is spot on. We recieved some riot control training for Iraq, so some of the guys may have some training but not most. 
Reed


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## AWP (Aug 18, 2014)

reed11b said:


> Composite units are unlikely, but limited to no training is spot on. We recieved some riot control training for Iraq, so some of the guys may have some training but not most.
> Reed


 
I know FL did it for State missions. It would create Task Forces or Teams or Regions or whatever suited the situation and then parcel out soldiers/ skills as needed. At times it would activate a whole company and even then many wouldn't show or would but with some qualification. "I have to leave on Sunday because I have class on Monday morning" or whatever.

3/20 was generally chopped out as attachments because of certain skills or equipment. Even when ODA's were involved they were usually a part of an organization, either as the main element or as an attachment. It worked, but it was awkward and generated some animosity between units.

Is that mode the norm in the Guard? I don't know. Was it the norm in FL? Yes. Did Guard Bureau know about this? Yes.


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## reed11b (Aug 18, 2014)

I have three states experience (OR,AK,and WA), and in thoses states composite units were avoided, though volunteers to fill up holes in the roster were always accepted. I have also only activated for natural disasters not riots. But new gear with no training is on the money for my Guard experience across the board.
Reed


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## reed11b (Aug 18, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> At times it would activate a whole company and even then many wouldn't show or would but with some qualification. "I have to leave on Sunday because I have class on Monday morning"


 
I'm 99.99% sure that is across the board for Guard as well. 
Reed


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## DA SWO (Aug 18, 2014)

reed11b said:


> I'm 99.99% sure that is across the board for Guard as well.
> Reed


.... and the Reserves.

Though the economy makes getting volunteers easier.


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## Brill (Aug 18, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> I can't speak for all units, but even in the 90's the Guard didn't train for this.



Wrong.  First Blood was filmed in '82 so it's all good. 

Why call out the Guard?  Looks like the police are WAY better equipped than any Guard unit...plus I'm confident the police supply guy isn't "oh hell no, you're not taking that: it's brand new so you don't need that."

I cannot imagine the ROE.


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## compforce (Aug 18, 2014)

lindy said:


> I cannot imagine the ROE.



I can....    "Die in place, do not respond even in self defense."


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## Brill (Aug 20, 2014)

Is this really the only thread on Ferguson, MO? Are we not going to talk about the issues?


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## AWP (Aug 20, 2014)

lindy said:


> Is this really the only thread on Ferguson, MO? Are we not going to talk about the issues?


 
I don't think we have one discussing them, but you're welcome to start a thread.


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## Gunz (Aug 22, 2014)

RetPara said:


> This is a topic I have taken a LOT of personal interest in since my Battalion deployed to Fort Indiantown Gap in August of '80 to fine tune some Cuban 'tudes.  There were still some good people being detained....


 
Nixon deployed my battalion (2/6) and a battalion from the 82nd Airborne to Homestead AFB during the GOP and Dem conventions in Miami in '72.  We flew down on 141s and lived in a tent city between runways. He didn't even want to screw with the NG, he went straight to Marines/Airborne for riot duty. We got plastic face shields for our helmets and practiced riot control everyday on the tarmac. Marines and Airborne would alternate playing the "hippies." A healthy portion of both Battalions were combat vets and the "riot training" was at bayonet point. No telling what it would have been like if we'd been unleashed on rioters.


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## Ranger Psych (Aug 22, 2014)

lindy said:


> Is this really the only thread on Ferguson, MO? Are we not going to talk about the issues?



What's the issue?

Theoretically, LE initiated contact with an individual. Individual became aggressive and attacked officer, officer shot individual.
Everyone jumped to conclusions, race baiting opportunists jumped on it like a fat kid on cake and the miscreant opportunists used it as a chance to gain unearned goods or otherwise damage private or public property.


Local and State LE totally dropped the ball, overreacted with federal grant gear (once again reinforcing the WE GOT THIS WE HAVE TO USE IT SO WE JUSTIFY HAVING IT ON THE BOOKS mentality of LE) and basically went full jackboot on that ass, yet not jackboot enough since places still got torched and/or looted.

Some locations took security into their own hands due to the literal fact that the cops can't protect you being blatantly enforced, and the 2nd amendment held strong for those people. They retained their hard earned and bought equipment/workplaces/livelyhoods because they had evil black rifles that do evil things to evil people when good people are behind the trigger.


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## pardus (Oct 22, 2014)

lindy said:


> Is this really the only thread on Ferguson, MO? Are we not going to talk about the issues?





Freefalling said:


> I don't think we have one discussing them, but you're welcome to start a thread.



http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/threads/ferguson-mo-thread.21465/


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## Brill (Oct 22, 2014)

pardus said:


> http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/threads/ferguson-mo-thread.21465/



Shadow spear QRF material right there!

60 days later....


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