# APFT - Men vs. Women



## Snowbird (Jun 17, 2008)

Ok, the Army's policy is that men are more physically capable than women.  This is not my policy, it is not my idea.  This is Army docrtine IAW AR 350-1 Chap 1 Section 24, and FM 21-20.  

Personally, I think it's bullshit.  Set one standard, and women would get much more respect.  I don't see how doing less should qualify someone to do the same job.  Physical Fitness is 20% of your grade on your NCOER.  This means 20% of your effectiveness as a Soldier (according to the Army here) is your PFT (not your total combat readiness, but just your PFT since that is the only official measure of Soldiers' level of physical readiness - again with the BS).:2c:

Discuss.


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## gryfen (Jun 17, 2008)

First step would be one minimum standard.  Period.  Let the dusty FOGs at DA get used to that, and figgure it out from there.


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## Kurt V (Jun 17, 2008)

Snowbird, what do you think about the different scoring based on age? I suppose you never had senior male NCO's that used the lower standard due to their age? Did you respect them less?


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## AWP (Jun 17, 2008)

One standard sounds great and I agree that should be the case, but....

We have to accept the fact that one standard will result in either soft me or hard women. I saw in my time, both Guard and Active soldiers, women that weren't the most athletic humans pass a women's APFT. If we suddenly hold women to a male standard (without changing the male standard) then we will see a lot of women out of the military.

If we lower the male standard to accommodate for our female members, then what have we done? Modern warfare has gotten more physical than I think it used to be based on the amount of crap Joe/ Jane has to carry alone.

And then there's a door that suddenly opens: women in direct combat roles. With one physical standard it will be easier for a woman to argue that she belongs in an infantry unit or should be able to attend Ranger school, etc.

All of that aside, we like to talk about how in America everyone has a chance to succeed, how everyone is equal. Really? Equal, huh? The APFT says otherwise.

The fight won't be over an equal test across the board, the fight will be over whcih way the male standard changes: does it stay the same or is it lowered to accommodate female soldiers? And if the Army does it, will the other services have to make their own one PT test standard?

There's more at stake here than push-ups and sit-ups (which is a really crappy PT test anyway).


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## moobob (Jun 17, 2008)

I think you can still tell women they are SOL because of the field sanitation issues involved.

I have maxed the APFT for years, but ever since I first learned about the Army's evaluation system, I've believed that the APFT should not be a factor for promotion.

My opinion is that there should be one minimum standard, based on the requirements of each job/MOS.

The minimum standard for non combat jobs is going to be lower, obviously. The minimum standard for say, infantry, would be passable by quite a few fit females out there. That's not really relevant though and if you don't like it, you can always work somewhere else or write your congressman...


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## Kurt V (Jun 17, 2008)

moobob said:


> My opinion is that there should be one minimum standard, based on the requirements of each job/MOS.




There already is a minimum standard for non-combat arms MOS's. You don't need a standard for combat-arms MOS's. The job itself will weed out the sick, lame and lazy.


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## gryfen (Jun 17, 2008)

> I think you can still tell women they are SOL because of the field sanitation issues involved.


I'm just going to go ahead and spit it out, because I've been in for 11 years and still haven't found a diplomatic response to this: 
Crock. Of. Shit.
Weak platitudes like that just get my blood pressure up.  I've been a woman all my goddamn life, I don't need some male speculating on my hygene needs.  And no, I'm not talking about living under a ruck in the mountains for 2 months.  I'm not combat arms, and I do not speculate on the living conditions.  My problem is that excuse has been offered to me like a shit sandwich, and I've seen princess type females use it to get over.


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## pardus (Jun 17, 2008)

gryfen said:


> I'm just going to go ahead and spit it out, because I've been in for 11 years and still haven't found a diplomatic response to this:
> Crock. Of. Shit.
> Weak platitudes like that just get my blood pressure up.  I've been a woman all my goddamn life, I don't need some male speculating on my hygene needs.  And no, I'm not talking about living under a ruck in the mountains for 2 months.  I'm not combat arms, and I do not speculate on the living conditions.  My problem is that excuse has been offered to me like a shit sandwich, and I've seen princess type females use it to get over.



Damn! You're sexy when you get like this!


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## moobob (Jun 17, 2008)

gryfen said:


> And no, I'm not talking about living under a ruck in the mountains for 2 months.



That's ALL I was talking about, as in, females arguing to be in combat jobs because of a set minimum PT standard. The females that use the personal hygiene card to get out of stuff usually aren't in a very austere environment anyway... Unless you're thinking of something else?


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## gryfen (Jun 18, 2008)

*my pet peeve....*

the hygiene argument is one of the most used and abused things out there. 

I honestly don't know we survived those couple hundred year chunks when we thought bathing would kill you. 

I've heard 'there's a male shower, but no female one' as an excuse to send one of my buddies out to bumbfuck Egypt for another stint. No patrols, no living under a rucksack....just a shitty hole to have to sit in for a couple of months. I'm back here on the VBC metropolis while he's on his second run out to a remote FOB. I was next in the chute, and 2 days before the fact when they pulled me and notified him that he was going back out.

We're of similar background & experience. Of course he's stronger than me, but the equipment is nowhere near either of our maximum capabilities. But he has to do another rotation out anyway.

I don't care which side of the chromosomes you're on. That shit just ain't right.


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## AWP (Jun 18, 2008)

When I went to basic at Ft. Jackson we had a sister company of female soldiers. They were a week ahead of us and we'd see them in passing here and there. One day we were at the Shopette getting ready for our FTX that basic trainees go to and these busses pull up. They unload a group of female soldiers, face smeared with camo, M-16's, rucks, blah, blah. Out Drill sergeants start making a production about how that would be us next week, yada, yada and all I can think is "We get to take busses back from this?"

Fast forward a month or so and I'm now at Ft. Gordon for AIT and we're given an outline of what AIT will consist of. Week 6 it says "FTX" so I think we get a week in the field. Whatever.

Later that week I'm talking to one of the females in my platoon who had arrived a week before me. We're doing the "Where'd you go to basic, what unit were you with?" game and I find out she was in our sister company. Later we get on the subject of the FTX and she announces that she won't do it. Huh? She won't do it, she'll get out of it like she did in Basic.

How the fuck do you not go the FTX and still graduate? Easy, she and HALF (by her estimation) of the company claimed they were having their period and were excused from the FTX. And then I thought back to that day we saw them step off the busses...there wasn't 150-180 joes like we had....they had a lot less than us get off the busses.

So I ask another female that was in the same company and she confirms the story. I'm floored.

I'm sure things are different now, I'm sure that crap doesn't fly...at least I hope it doesn't. But I never could shake the memory of 50% of the women in a unit faked having their menstrual cycle so they could avoid going to the woods.

As long as there are women pulling this stunt and as long as units allow it to happen, then our female soldiers will have an albatross around their necks. It should not be that way. I have no doubt that gryfen is one bad-assed NCO and soldier and brooks no bullshit when it comes to doing her job. I have no doubt that there are a multitude of women out there in the same boat as gryfen; there are two Silver Stars to women that I'm aware of in the GWOT. But female soldiers will have two fights: 1) to get their weak sisters to harden the fuck up, shut up, and do their jobs. 2) Fight preconceived notions from DA on down that they can pull their weight.

I think female soldiers are taking care of #1, it is #2 that needs to be addressed and one great way to do this would be a uniform APFT. The Army will have to get the PR machine in motion to deal with the number of women that won't be able to pass an APFT with higher standards. In today's PC world I don't see a GEN sitting before Congress to justify why x number of female soldiers are on the street because of a toughened APFT.

I think the problem needs to be addressed, I just don't see it ending with equality. My heart goes out to gryfen and others like her who don't ask for favoritism because of a chromosome. 

In the end we can say all soliders are equal and it is bullshit. We have to accept that and move forward.


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## Kurt V (Jun 18, 2008)

Freefalling, the only reason that happened with those female trainees is because:

1. The command structure let it happen.

2. You took basic at relaxin Jackson. That post has a rep for laziness.

I did a stint as a Drill Sergeant at Ft. Leonard Wood in the '90's. At least in my battalion that kind of crap did not happen. One rotation I even had a coed platoon. A couple of the female trainees tried to see if they could embarrass me by pulling the "it's my period Drill Sgt." crap. I used to get the little plastic boxes of Midol and I would toss them out to female and male trainees alike when the whining would start. Have high standards and let the trainees know what your standards are and most of them will strive to reach them.

Gryfen, as to the single shower point, again, that is a simple problem that a good commander would work around. You should never have been denied the right to pull your own weight.


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## AWP (Jun 18, 2008)

Kurt, I agree with you, but I've seen it (or a variation of it) everywhere I've gone. The percentages change but in the end the Army is afraid of women. We are so concerned with EEO complaints and whatnot that I don't think DA wants to do anything about it. I have no doubt that there are good units and commanders out there, but I believe that the institution as a whole is terrified of an EEO complaint being lodged against them.


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## LibraryLady (Jun 18, 2008)

Free, I did Basic at Jackson in '83.  Not a one of the women in my company got to use that excuse for our FTX.  The women DI's made sure of it.

Females using this as an excuse should be removed from the service. Period.  End of story.  They can't manage their own personal hygiene, they shouldn't be in the service.

APFT should not be a factor in promotion.  Promotion should depend upon your ability to perform your chosen speciality and leadership abilities.

The gender/age differences in the APFT are a joke.  I'm not sure I advocate one test for all, but I do think the disparity is outrageous.

LL


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## HoosierAnnie (Jun 18, 2008)

LibraryLady said:


> Females using this as an excuse should be removed from the service. Period.  End of story.  They can't manage their own personal hygiene, they shouldn't be in the service.LL



Not only yes but hell yes.  Agree 200%


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## car (Jun 18, 2008)

gryfen said:


> the hygiene argument is one of the most used and abused things out there.
> 
> I honestly don't know we survived those couple hundred year chunks when we thought bathing would kill you.
> 
> ...



I totally agree. That's some bullshit.

Story -- First day of my first 1SG job, in the 82nd. The commander introduces me to our two platoon leaders; a couple of cute, red-headed 2LTs. Their PSGs are a couple of cute brunettes. The C&J platoon (my old platoon) has several little hotties for team leaders. I'm thinking, "I'm a single 1SG. I'm fucked." My head suddenly filled up with EO nightmares. Never happened! They were cute/hot and hard as chicken lips. Best company I had as a 1SG.


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## Paddlefoot (Jun 18, 2008)

Kurt V said:


> 2. You took basic at relaxin Jackson. That post has a rep for laziness.



I went throught the last hard basic training iteration there.


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## Snowbird (Jun 19, 2008)

LibraryLady said:


> Females using this as an excuse should be removed from the service. Period.



Sorry to digress from the serious tone this thread has taken, but when I read this - given the context of the recent posts - I couldn't help but laugh

The age differences don't bother me as much as the rank differences.  As rank goes up, standards decrease.  The two are in an inverse relationship with each other.

If the base of your neck does not pass the base of your spine, it is not a sit-up.  
If your knees exceed a 90 degree angle, it is not a sit-up
 ^^For the guys with guts, this is a problem.  Most of the time they will have to drop their knees to the side to make room for their gut to get themselves to the "up" position.  I failed a 1SG because he couldn't do 1 situp or pushup right.  They got him another grader.  I don't give a shit who he is, a sit-up is a fucking sit-up, and you can do it or you can't.  Same with a push up.  I don't care how big your gut is, you must lower yourself so that your upper arm is at least parallel with the ground and must raise yourself until your arms are fully extended (it doesn't say locked, but your arm should be straight).  You must move your body as a unit: this 1SG was thrusting his hips downward as he was pushing upward to give himself leverage.  

The guy is a fucking joke and I will never take what he says seriously.  He may be super hot shit but in my mind he will always be the dirtbag leader that can't do one good sit-up or one good push-up.

I just demand the standard.  That's it, I don't want anything more or less, just give me the standard.  Basic Army shit. . .too much of the Army can't even do it.


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