# 4th Force Hawaii



## ritterk (Mar 23, 2009)

I was wondering if anyone here is currently serving with 4th Force out of Hawaii.  I’m looking for some info on that unit because I would like to potentially join that outfit.

Semper Fi,
Ritter


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## Teufel (Mar 23, 2009)

Are you an 0321?  4th Force is based out of Alameida Californina with a Det in Hawaii.  I know the incoming I&I ops chief.  What do you want to know?


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## ritterk (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm not a 0321 I'm lat moving to 0351, I'm just waiting on my prior service recruiter to finish my paper work and submit it to Head Quarters Marine Corps so I can go to SOI. Then I want to switch to the detachment in Hawaii and go through BRC.  Right now, I'm just looking at how to make all of this possible.  I'm joining the reserve unit out of Anchorage, Alaska (to get my foot in the door) but my ultimate goal is to get into recon through the reserves.  Specifically I was curious if they allow block drills or if they would be any I&I spots opening up with the unit.  I need a break from grad school and I really want to get into recon, I should have just done the indoc while I was in.  

Thanks for your help sir,
Ritter


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## ComingBack (Mar 23, 2009)

Just something to be aware of...I don't know what rank you'll be coming back in as, but last I heard you have to be E-5 and below to go to BRC.  That came from I&I 1st Sgt at 3rd Force.  Unless of course you're a 0.


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## ritterk (Mar 23, 2009)

I'm still a Sergeant but I will probably be close to picking up staff once I do my lateral move.  I'm definitely worried about picking up Staff Sergeant because I want to get into recon.  If I pick up Staff Sergeant before making it to BRC I will probably transition to the O side.


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## ComingBack (Mar 23, 2009)

A little off the subject, but did they finally get you back in?


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## ritterk (Mar 23, 2009)

No not yet.  I'm waiting on my recruiters RI to approve my request which is proving to be a bitch before it gets sent off.  According to my recruiter my paper work should be getting submitted this week, but I'm not holding my breath since it has taken me over two years to get back in.


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## Teufel (Mar 24, 2009)

Have you already talked with your career jammer?  They usually won't let you lat move if you are too senior.  If you are selected there is no chance, especially if you are not an 03 yet.  I take it you are lat moving from a non infantry MOS?  BRC can be a tough school to go through as a NCO from a non infantry background.  We had two guys in my BRC class who passed all the physical stuff but were performance dropped from patrol week because they didn't perform to the level expected of an NCO.  Now before everyone gets on my case, some of the best Recon Marines I have worked with were former computer techs, admin Marines and Motor T operators etc but they moved over when they were relatively junior and are all around incredible individuals. 

You have to understand that there are no billets for SSgts at Recon Battalion other than platoon sergeants and sometimes gear NCOs.  You wouldn't have enough time to gain the MOS knowledge, credibility and insert schools necessary to become a team leader if you are almost a SSgt.  Nothing is worse than getting a inexperienced SSgt in your platoon and I have seen a lot of these guys get pushed over to the company HQ or the armory etc.  I don't want to discourage you but I want you to know how it is at the Recon Battalions or Force Companies.  Now I have always been active duty and I don't know what it is really like in the reserves besides what I have heard from my friends who came back from I&I.


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## ritterk (Mar 24, 2009)

I have not had a chance to speak with a career planner because I’m still trying to get back in on the reserve side.  I’m lat moving from 1171 to 0351 and according to my prior service recruiter I should be close to staff, but he is not sure because I have broken time so I hope he is wrong.  I really want to get into the reconnaissance field and I’m will to do whatever it takes.   I should have just done it when my WO was pushing me to take the indoc before I got out.  I wouldn’t have any problem listening to people who out rank me especially since they would be the resident experts. Maybe I will just have to ask to come back as a corporal or a boot sergeant, either one wouldn’t bother me the least bit.  If the damn prior service recruiters and their chain of command didn’t take so stinking long to get me back in I wouldn’t be having this problem.   I might just have to look into SF; however, I love the Corps so it would be hard to switch branches.  
Thanks for your response,
Ritter


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## Teufel (Mar 24, 2009)

If you have broken time you should come in as a buck Sgt or you may lose rank depending on how much broken time you have.  Here is the problem, you won't have to listen to people who you out rank, because that's not how the Marine Corps works.  As a Sgt you would be okay, but as a SSgt they are not going to make you a slack man in a team with a Sgt TL if you understand what I'm saying.  You would just get put somewhere else like HQ.  Things were different at Force where it wasn't uncommon to see GySgt Team Leaders.  If I were you I would try to go to Infantry Squad Leaders course before BRC to get an infantry foundation, otherwise you might find yourself struggling a little bit at BRC.  At the very least you would get a land nav refresher; you don't want to get dropped during nav phase.


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## ritterk (Mar 24, 2009)

My recruiter said I would be coming back in as a Sgt.  The unit I’m joining has school seats for Squad Leaders Course so I’m definitely going to go to that school.  I don’t want to get dropped from BRC at all.  I’m going to call my prior service recruiter tomorrow to see what the deal with my rank is going to be because I don’t want to come back as a senior Sgt.  I just can’t wait to get back in.
Ritter


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## Teufel (Mar 25, 2009)

I don't know about Hawaii but I talked to a friend of mine and Almeida does the 1 weekend a month and 2 weeks a year bit.  They do about 4 months predeployment if they get activated.


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## TJT0321 (Mar 26, 2009)

Hey man, don't worry too much about it. A buddy of mine lat moved straight into Recon from the Marine Corps band as a sergeant, and my unit sent him to SOI and Recon school without too much trouble. He's picked up SSgt since then, and he's operating as a TL in my platoon. He's not what I'd call experienced in recon, but he's a good staff NCO, so it balances out. 

As for your promotion, since you're broken service like me they won't have much of a history on you as a sergeant and therefore won't have much of a fitrep to report. Your chances of a fast promotion are slim. You've got plenty of time. 

On a side note, I don't understand why you'd waste the time going through a lat move to 0351 and then having to go to school back to become an 0321. Why not just lat move straight to 0321? It's gotta be easier to do on paper. Just get in touch with the Hawaii Det. or the guys in Alameda. They can get your package started. 

Just a side note though, I hear that they just got back from a really fucked up deployment and most everyone worth a damn has left the unit. That leaves a lot of openings for you to fill, but doesn't say much for the commanders out there.


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## ritterk (Mar 26, 2009)

Thanks for the good information!  I asked my prior service recruiter if I could just go straight into recon but since I have broken time he said it would be easiest if I just joined a unit and then switched once I got my foot in the door.  However, I will speak with him again about trying to go straight into recon, which is what I would prefer.   That is not good news about the unit, there is nothing worse than a unit full of jacked up commanders.  I was with the wing for my first four so I know what it is like to have a horrible chain of command.  The reason I wanted to lat move to 0351 was so I could get some grunt experience before I tried out for recon.   But I will most definitely get in touch with someone out there because I don’t really want to mess around with a unit that I don’t plan on drilling with for very long.


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## 0699 (Mar 26, 2009)

ritterk said:


> ... he said it would be easiest if I just joined a unit and then switched once I got my foot in the door.



I wonder if he means that it's easier for him...

Just saying...


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## ritterk (Mar 26, 2009)

0699 said:


> I wonder if he means that it's easier for him...
> 
> Just saying...



You are most likely correct.  I called my prior service recruiter today and he said he would call out to 4th force to see what they can do for me.


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## Teufel (Mar 27, 2009)

TJT0321 said:


> On a side note, I don't understand why you'd waste the time going through a lat move to 0351 and then having to go to school back to become an 0321. Why not just lat move straight to 0321? It's gotta be easier to do on paper. Just get in touch with the Hawaii Det. or the guys in Alameda. They can get your package started.



You can't lat move directly to 0321 anymore; all fleet moves have to be  to 03xx in case you fail out of BRC you have something to fall back on.   That being said, that just means you to SOI for 03xx and then to BRC


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## ritterk (Mar 27, 2009)

I just spoke with my recruiter and he conveyed to me that even if the unit in Hawaii wanted me, Head Quarters Marine Corps wouldn't approve my re-enlistment paper work for 4th Force.  The RI, who is a Master Sergeant, told my recruiter to not even call out there.  Can anyone shed some light on why this would be because my recruiter and I were both stumped.  I told my recruiter that makes no sense and doesn't help the Marine Corps fill its ranks in any way plus it isn’t what I want.  In my opinion, this whole process is nothing but a cluster fuck.  I almost need some O power to get the ball moving on this.   On a side note, thanks for the good info Teufel!


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## Teufel (Mar 27, 2009)

Maybe because you are too senior or because you are not already an 0321? Sometimes the reserves want you to join up with a unit near your home.


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## TJT0321 (Mar 31, 2009)

Alright Ritter, it sounds like you're in a bit of a fucked up situation but I have a plan. I actually did my 4 years active, 4 inactive and got my discharge in the mail before I decided to reenlist. The broken service caused them to change my pay entry base date to cover the gap. No big deal really. My prior service recruiter reenlisted me for one year of non-obligational service at my current unit to give me a chance to see if I liked it, and it worked out great. 

I recommend doing the shortest reenlistment possible just to get the school slots you need, then once you've got SOI and squad leader's course knocked out you can jump over to a recon unit. If you don't want to pick up Staff Sergeant, then don't put anything on your fitreps. Simple as that. I'm pretty sure that they have to pass you over 3 times before they kick you out of the corps, so you'll have some time. 

Other than that, there's always the officer route. There's almost no guarantee that you'll get to a recon unit that way, but there's a chance. Unfortunately you'll never operate in a team as an officer except in BRC, so it's kind of a waste. You'd have to go to MARSOC to get any real action as an Officer.


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## Teufel (Mar 31, 2009)

TJT0321 said:


> Other than that, there's always the officer route. There's almost no guarantee that you'll get to a recon unit that way, but there's a chance. Unfortunately you'll never operate in a team as an officer except in BRC, so it's kind of a waste. You'd have to go to MARSOC to get any real action as an Officer.



This is not entirely accurate.  While officers will never be in a team (other than HQ) they do get "real action" during platoon operations, which most direct action missions are.  If all teams are out on an R&S mission the platoon commander may run a forward ROC.  It is true that there is no guarantee of getting to a recon unit though, and there are much less opportunities for schools unless you are in a Force Recon company.


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## ritterk (Mar 31, 2009)

Teufel said:


> It is true that there is no guarantee of getting to a recon unit though, and there are much less opportunities for schools unless you are in a Force Recon company.



This why I don't want to go officer yet, there are a few schools I would like to attend that would be difficult to get to as an officer.


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## ritterk (Mar 31, 2009)

TJT0321, according to my recruiter I will most likely be coming back in with a new date of rank that would reflect the day I reenlist into the reserves.  Which is good news for me and supposedly I’m going to be picking my SOI school seat tomorrow.  I’m thinking about going sometime in May but I’m still not sure.  Once I figure that out I’m going to get a hold of my new unit and get slatted for squad leaders course and I guess my unit has lots of jump school seats, definitely going to try to obtain one of those.  Then I will heed your advice and try to make the switch into Recon.  On a side note, I think it will be weird but fun to be a Sgt. at SOI.


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## ComingBack (Mar 31, 2009)

I hate to be the bearer of potentially bad news, but wait to see if you get back in first.  I just got told I'm a no go.  That came from the Pentagon.  It was the answer from them to my congressman.  It sucks, cause I was already talking to MarSoc and they told me to come on down to A&S when I get back in.  Anyway, the reason was pretty much because quotas are already met.  I was also told Marine Times recently published a story that only critical MOS prior service will be allowed back in.  
  As far as 4th Force, I would call down there myself and talk to them.  Remember, you are not currently under a chain of command, so just call them.  You can probably google them and get a hit on their website.  I know 3rd Force shows up with a hit from google.


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## TJT0321 (Mar 31, 2009)

Teufel said:


> This is not entirely accurate.  While officers will never be in a team (other than HQ) they do get "real action" during platoon operations, which most direct action missions are.  If all teams are out on an R&S mission the platoon commander may run a forward ROC.  It is true that there is no guarantee of getting to a recon unit though, and there are much less opportunities for schools unless you are in a Force Recon company.



My bad Teufel, I meant to say that officers do not typically operate as part of the teams during training or for most missions. In my experience they've always been in the ROC (somewhere) dealing with the command and control aspects of the mission. I'm sure they see a fair amount of action, but probably not on purpose. I don't know how you guys do it over at Force though, so I could be mistaken.


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## ritterk (Mar 31, 2009)

I’m definitely not holding my breath on this; however, if it is how you say it is in regards to critical MOS’s being allowed back in then it might be Army SF or Navy, for a shot at BUDs.  Nonetheless, I will see if I get back in before I start making any plans.  ComingBack, what are your plans now that you can’t get back in?  My recruiter told me if I wasn’t accepted back then he would just resubmit my paperwork again and again until I’m allowed back in.


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## ComingBack (Apr 2, 2009)

I don't know for sure...I've been talking to the NG recruiter about intel. and SF.


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## ritterk (Apr 6, 2009)

ComingBack, keep me posted on what you decide to do.  I should know if I'm approved for reenlistment next Tuesday.  Hopefully I get the answer I'm looking for.


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## ComingBack (Apr 8, 2009)

Good luck bro, I'm afraid you're going to need it...:confused:


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## ritterk (Apr 8, 2009)

Thanks man!  Keep me up to date with the direction you decide to head in.


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## ritterk (Apr 23, 2009)

I got approved for re-enlistment today so I'm incredibly happy about that, it only took 2 years and 2 months to get approved.


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## car (Apr 23, 2009)

Congrats!!!!


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## AMRUSMCR (Apr 23, 2009)

That's great news.  :)


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## Gypsy (Apr 23, 2009)

Congrats to you!


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## Swiftreco (Oct 29, 2010)

To touch on a few points. 
- You can go to BRC as a SSgt, I lat moved after being in the IRR into recon and was selected 2 weeks prior to attending BRC.  I picked up at BRC.  Also,there was another Marine who picked up aswell.  Further more, we had two SSgt's start the course but didn't cut it.  All that said, SSgt's can go to BRC.
- The deployment that drove Marines away from 4th Force had nothing to do with the TM's or the command as a whole.  It boiled down to Staff and brass politics of 3rd and 4th working together.  Regardless a bad situation but it is not a reflection of how 4th Force command operates.
- I am a SSgt and am in the TM.  I am the ATL and my TL is a very seasoned Sgt.  I am absolutely fine with this.  I learn from him and he learns from me and my experience as an NCO and now it even works better for my TM having a Staff.  We get info faster and have more flexibility than most in daily routines.  
- I went through a PSR to oin the unit and was given my school seats by MARFORRES.  I consider myself a lucky one because the I&I 1stSgt at the time had to go to bat with MARFORRES regarding his T/O numbers and having a mismatch MOS on deck until I completed BRC.  
- Our current drill schedule changed from every month to the quarter system recently with the guidance of our new CO.  Longer drill periods allow for better training instead of trying to slam training into 2-3 days.  Plus, we have Marines coming from TX, AZ, and AK to name a few so it works better for those Marines having to shell out money for drill.  
- We have spent the last couple years rebuilding the Company, we are now at a good point moving forward.  Sadly we are still under T/O as we only have 2 plts of 21's and have a designation of needing a 3rd plt.  All this not including the Hawaii Det.  If people are interested in joining 4th Force I would recommend going throught the proper channels as out new CO is kicking and screaming for more Marines to come on board.  Infact every drill he mentions "talk to your buddies and get their asses over here".

I hope this answers some questions, even if they are out dated.


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## JimMCpog (Dec 22, 2010)

Seeing that Anchorage Alaska used to host Echo Company 4th Recon Battalion as late as 2006, you might be able to ask around your unit for anyone with connections to 4th Force Recon. When I was in Hawaii 4th Force Recon was aggressively recruiting active duty Navy corpsmen and radio operators. Some of the folks in their headquarters platoon were junior lance corporals that had tried out and were immediately accepted into the process. They worked for H&S for awhile and during that time learned through OJT before going off to the official schools to become qualified. So in the case of reserve Force Recon do you have to put in time in a recon battalion first? Perhaps not, but I don't have current or insider information.

Good luck:)


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## JimMCpog (Dec 22, 2010)

Swiftreco said:


> To touch on a few points.
> - You can go to BRC as a SSgt, I lat moved after being in the IRR into recon and was selected 2 weeks prior to attending BRC.  I picked up at BRC.  Also,there was another Marine who picked up aswell.  Further more, we had two SSgt's start the course but didn't cut it.  All that said, SSgt's can go to BRC.
> - The deployment that drove Marines away from 4th Force had nothing to do with the TM's or the command as a whole.  It boiled down to Staff and brass politics of 3rd and 4th working together.  Regardless a bad situation but it is not a reflection of how 4th Force command operates.
> - I am a SSgt and am in the TM.  I am the ATL and my TL is a very seasoned Sgt.  I am absolutely fine with this.  I learn from him and he learns from me and my experience as an NCO and now it even works better for my TM having a Staff.  We get info faster and have more flexibility than most in daily routines.
> ...



Hi Swiftreco, I was just wondering:

Do you feel that MARSOC or Anglico are competing with you for the same pool of reserve talent?

What do you think you would need to meet your T/O?


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## JimMCpog (Dec 22, 2010)

ComingBack said:


> I hate to be the bearer of potentially bad news, but wait to see if you get back in first.  I just got told I'm a no go.  That came from the Pentagon.  It was the answer from them to my congressman.  It sucks, cause I was already talking to MarSoc and they told me to come on down to A&S when I get back in.  Anyway, the reason was pretty much because quotas are already met.  I was also told Marine Times recently published a story that only critical MOS prior service will be allowed back in.
> As far as 4th Force, I would call down there myself and talk to them.  Remember, you are not currently under a chain of command, so just call them.  You can probably google them and get a hit on their website.  I know 3rd Force shows up with a hit from google.



Would you ever be interested in 0211? They may be more willing to give you a chance because I think they are hurting even more than 0321.


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## ComingBack (Jan 7, 2011)

JimMCpog said:


> Would you ever be interested in 0211? They may be more willing to give you a chance because I think they are hurting even more than 0321.



I think intel would be very cool but I've already talked to the prior service recruiter here in Michigan and it's the same story I keep getting.  There is no way to get in the reserves, AR, or active duty for me.


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## 18C4V (Jan 13, 2011)

For the guys in Alameda, Ca are you guys on jump status for static or free fall?


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## Teufel (Jan 14, 2011)

All the billets at 4th Force are MFF/Dive coded.  So the answer is both.  How many guys are actually MFF qualified is another story, I never served at 4th so I don't know.


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