# Now is the Time for Warrior Scholars?



## Marauder06 (Nov 12, 2013)

http://yaledailynews.com/blog/2013/11/11/howell-its-time-for-warrior-scholars/



> On this Veteran’s Day, bear in mind one thing: The post-9/11 G.I. Bill is insufficient. It provides the means but not the knowledge nor the ability to effectively apply those means. After invaluable service to our nation, thousands of veterans face the challenge of transitioning from combat to college.
> 
> While the number is contested, one thing is clear — most veterans do not graduate. Many of those who fought in defense of freedom do not even make it through their freshman year. We throw money at our veterans through a generous G.I. Bill, then fail to train them how not to fail.



Thoughts on this?  Full disclosure:  the author is a friend of mine, non-military background but active in veterans' issues.  Others on this site know him as well.


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## SkrewzLoose (Nov 12, 2013)

Does this cover the full spectrum?  I would imagine there is some truth to this in a majority of the 4-year-and-done-crowd.  Most of the folks I interact with on a daily basis would probably not fare too well in a college setting.  Immaturity, lack of motivation, no grasp of proper grammar, speech, articulation, reading comprehension, etc exist too prevalently based on what I see day to day.  
It also seems that the ones who would do so poorly as to drop/fail out of their first couple of semesters would be the type to not sign up for or use the MGIB/Post 9-11 in the first place.  
I agree with his overall stance of improving the transition so that our Warriors have an easier go of it when they decide to put the money to use.


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## CDG (Nov 12, 2013)

I didn't go to a big name school, and I still don't have a degree so my opinion may be somewhat irrelevant, but I'll offer it anyways.  I dropped out without a degree because of my re-enlistment.  Now that things are a little more stable and I'm not in a selection pipeline, I am going back to school through AMU.  I disagree with the author saying it is the fault of the schools.  AFAIK, schools all have placement testing that should put people in the right level of classes from the start.  The brick and mortar school that I was going to had plenty of opportunities for people if they were struggling.  There were study groups, veteran study groups, tutors, etc.  So I don't buy that paying for school isn't enough.  I think it is.  It's on the student to make the most of it.  We talk all the time about how much better we are, on average, at dealing with life than non-veterans, how our work ethic is better, our discipline is better, etc.  So act like it.  Don't blame the fact that you haven't been to school in 10 or 20 years.  Get a tutor, ask the professor, attend extra study sessions, something.


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## racing_kitty (Nov 12, 2013)

A couple of weeks ago, there was an informal evening meeting of the USA Student Veterans' Association.  A few of us (to include another EOD tech) were in agreement that life was a whole lot easier when all we had to worry about was people trying to kill us.  We also agreed that it's a different dynamic of learning than what people who have six, eight, ten, or more years of service are used to.  The eighteen- and nineteen-year-olds are still in the school mindset, since they are just coming off of 12 years or so of K-12 education.  The four-and-out soldiers usually aren't too terribly far removed from the mindset; it's a little rusty sitting back in the corner of the mind, but it's there and it comes back out before too long. 

That's not always the case with the troops who have years of service under their belts when they first enroll.  We're used to a mix of lecture and hands on training.  In EOD school, the ratio of classroom days to practical days was roughly 1:3, not including study hall in the mornings or evenings.  We learned the basics of everything from EEE (Explosives and Explosive Effects) to nukes in just under a year, with our units fine tuning our knowledge once we graduated.  Even in the 25Q course, instructors would alternate a couple of hours of lecture with hands on using MSE/DGE patch panels and shelters.  In my case specifically, I'm excelling in class discussions or lab days, while I'm ready to shotgun a fifth of Woodford and throw the deuces before thirty minutes has passed in a lecture (and I excelled in biology and chemistry in HS). 

It's all about having to get into the right mindset.  I am not the only one who feels like "{I} could learn this shit in half the time if {I} could just cut through all the bullshit."  But how much of it is bullshit, vs. having to readjust to a setting where the consequences of your decisions do not manifest in a fraction of the time that civilians are used to (as is the case with life and death decisions).  Hell, I get foul tempered when my test grades aren't uploaded to the website within 48 hours after the Scantron test is administered, while my classmates have a more laisséz faire attitude about it.

Being stuck in a room with 70-80 children not yet old enough to drink doesn't exactly help prior service maintain their motivation, either.  That comes down to working on interpersonal skills, though.  A former finance clerk would have an easier time adjusting to that than a salty dog 0300/CMF 11 series would (or a brash, brazen bomb jockey, for that matter).  Entering college was, to me, a bigger culture shock than my first time out in Ramadi as a specialist in 2003, and I am not the only former troop that feels that way.  

The problem is when do you fit in the time to help readjust the mindset?  ACAP for many separating troops is a check-the-block event that gets you out of work call formation for a couple of days.  If someone is getting ready to ETS right after a combat deployment, especially after a high OPTEMPO tour, the reintegration briefs will blend with everything else, and it becomes a bowl of mental gruel that the troop isn't really going to process until freshman orientation at State U, and then he's not going to recall it all.  PTSD/TBI doesn't help the situation, either.  Involvement with a student veterans' group will probably help with the reintegration, but that would require the support of faculty and administrators at State U.  At USA, I was surprised to find out that there are quite a few faculty members who are veterans, but that may not always be the case at other institutions of higher learning.

On the flip side, why push every swinging dick with an honorable discharge and a DD214 into a four year college?  Why not take the Mike Rowe approach?  I know I can't be the only one that misses having a hands on job on a regular basis while listening to some doddering old man drone on about *insert subject here*.  In my case, my aptitude tests leaned more towards jobs that do require a 4-year degree or higher (nuclear engineer, anesthesiologist, chemist), but not everyone is geared that way.  The GI Bill covers training for skilled trades, too.  It's not something that you hear people emphasize too often during the ACAP briefs.


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## goon175 (Nov 12, 2013)

The author is making the assumption that dropping out of college is synonymous with failure. I disagree, but will admit that sometimes it does. What about the statistic about veterans being twice as successful compared to their non-military peers in entrepreneurship? I only say that to bring up that there is more than one metric to measure success.


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## AWP (Nov 12, 2013)

I realize my thoughts may collide with the allowable length of the article, but not mentioning the GI Bill's effect on post-WWII America is a huge mistake. I disagree that it is on the college to help former servicemembers while conceding that the transition from TTP's to PPT's (paperwork, processes, and time...or 'tards if you prefer) can be a bit of a challenge for someone without an admin background.

I think a paragraph citing the GI Bill's influence on post-WWII America would have "completed the circuit" for a lot of readers. That takes an emotional appeal and applies a real-world, no-kidding example of the program's positive effects. Instead of "we owe them one" it becomes "We owe them one and this is how it betters us all."


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## goon175 (Nov 12, 2013)

I'm also curios to know how the statistics he is looking at were done, as most of us know, the Post 9/11 GI Bill can be used for certifications as well as degrees. I personally know more than a few guys who used it for this reason, two of which who are pilots now because of it. So, I'm wondering if it takes that into account, or is it just strictly going off of how many use the money and how many get a bachelors degree.


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## goon175 (Nov 12, 2013)

I also agree with @racing_kitty on the fact that many probably quit school not because they don't have the intellectual capacity to do the work, but rather they just get fed up with professors who talk down to them, fellow students who are clueless, and a general idea of "I feel like I am back in kindergarten".


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## 8654Maine (Nov 12, 2013)

"Warrior Scholars".  Like these are 2 mutually exclusive items.

As FF points out,  returning WWII vets would have some serious issues with this article.  My F-I-L went to college with these guys.  It was one of the best times of his life.  His contemporaries became captains of industry, business, politics, science and law.

RK and goon175 hit some good points.

You want to know the most telling part of this article?  Scroll down to the comments:

"Wasn't there an article about how we should ensure that underprivileged students acclimate to Yale? How is that different from what the author is suggesting?"


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## goon175 (Nov 12, 2013)

8654Maine said:


> "Wasn't there an article about how we should ensure that underprivileged students acclimate to Yale? How is that different from what the author is suggesting?"



I about threw my fucking computer across the room when I read that.


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## 8654Maine (Nov 13, 2013)

Goon, I don't think that comment was disparaging the vets, just this article.

Actually, you could look at it as trying to create a "special interest group" in college.  It somehow connotes that vets are disadvantaged.  HANDICAPPED.

I could not disagree more.  I, and my contemporaries, are bad-ass MOFO's.  We adapt, improvise and overcome.  SMEAC needs to be tweaked, but the goal is still to accomplish the mission and take care of the troops.  Simplify complexity.  Simple as that.

Sure, there are nuances and need to develop proper study habits.  Everyone could use that help.  And it helps to have role models.  Who wouldn't benefit from that?


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## racing_kitty (Nov 13, 2013)

goon175 said:


> The author is making the assumption that dropping out of college is synonymous with failure.



Well, considering that a bachelor's degree in anything other than STEM has become severely bloated in terms of perceived importance that college has unofficially become high school 2.0, the author's attitude is hardly surprising.  

Take a look to see how many entry level jobs are out there with a job description that would be better served with on-the-job training yet require a bachelor's in something to even be considered.  The days of OJT are gone, except for flipping burgers.


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## medicchick (Nov 13, 2013)

goon175 said:


> I'm also curios to know how the statistics he is looking at were done, as most of us know, the Post 9/11 GI Bill can be used for certifications as well as degrees. I personally know more than a few guys who used it for this reason, two of which who are pilots now because of it. So, I'm wondering if it takes that into account, or is it just strictly going off of how many use the money and how many get a bachelors degree.



I know the Paramedic school I went to (owned/run my a Navy Reservist Corpsman) is certified so he could take the GI Bill (whatever that all entailed) and partnered with a local CC so we'd be 5ish credits shy for an Associated Degree.  He specifically wanted a learning environment that vets would be comfortable in (and this was pre 9/11).  I was in his 2nd class to graduate and we stated Paramedic training with 5 military people (3 got called/went to AD), two had served in the first Gulf War and wanted some extra skills (police or FF, we were night classes 2 times a week).  I think this learning environment was good for us all, I know I wouldn't have been able to sit in regular classes with having left high school 4 years earlier.


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## racing_kitty (Nov 13, 2013)

Except for a few classes I took at CTC while I was pregnant in 2004 (the only time I couldn't get sent to the field), it has been a solid twenty years since I've sat in a conventional class setting.


Edited for punctuation errors.


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## RustyShackleford (Nov 13, 2013)

A lot of what has been mentioned here, especially by RK, is why I chose to knock out the back half of my degree at AMU.  The first half was done mostly in a classroom, and while I was able to tolerate it, the pace absolutely sucked.  Granted, I didn't have to go back to school, but with the GI Bill/Post 9/11 GI Bill just sitting there, it was one of those blocks that I felt needed to be checked.  I cannot see how the author thinks the post 9/11 GI bill is lacking.  Going to college for veterans is more of an option than ever with most if not all tuition covered plus the stipend on top. 

Is it just me or is there this growing wave of media influence stressing how veterans need help more than ever?  On the radio, on TV, in print, I have heard/seen/read things about how veterans shouldn't be counted out or abandoned or how we're killing ourselves, blah, blah.  It's like a big pity party for a supposed warrior class that can't handle themselves upon ETS, even though the media makes it sound like everyone who has served since 9/11/01 spent their entire time in the military in a combat zone, killing.


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## racing_kitty (Nov 13, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> Is it just me or is there this growing wave of media influence stressing how veterans need help more than ever?  On the radio, on TV, in print, I have heard/seen/read things about how veterans shouldn't be counted out or abandoned or how we're killing ourselves, blah, blah.  It's like a big pity party for a supposed warrior class that can't handle themselves upon ETS, even though the media makes it sound like everyone who has served since 9/11/01 spent their entire time in the military in a combat zone, killing.



The warrior class is perceived as a threat to the entitlement mentality.  If the warrior class can be mentally cowed into becoming another victim class, then the threat to the entitlement mentality is minimized, if not eliminated outright.


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## RustyShackleford (Nov 13, 2013)

racing_kitty said:


> The warrior class is perceived as a threat to the entitlement mentality.  If the warrior class can be mentally cowed into becoming another victim class, then the threat to the entitlement mentality is minimized, if not eliminated outright.


 
I used to love, when asked, letting people know that I was hired into my job without college.  That seemed to amaze many that experience can actually get you hired.  Anyway, the VA is one of the loudest voices with "not counting vets out."  Perhaps they are trying to protect their future.


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## AWP (Nov 13, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> Is it just me or is there this growing wave of media influence stressing how veterans need help more than ever?  On the radio, on TV, in print, I have heard/seen/read things about how veterans shouldn't be counted out or abandoned or how we're killing ourselves, blah, blah.  It's like a big pity party for a supposed warrior class that can't handle themselves upon ETS, even though the media makes it sound like everyone who has served since 9/11/01 spent their entire time in the military in a combat zone, killing.


 
Guilt from Vietnam. The pendulum has swung the other way now and not for the better IMO.


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## LimaOscarSierraTango (Nov 13, 2013)

First off, college is not for everybody.  While everybody has the potential to succeed, it may be too hard to put that much effort into it for many.

Second, how many Veterans are trying to go to college now as opposed to the past?  Don't we have a record low amount of people serving these days compared to the major conflicts of the past?  Did those in the past fight through the same issues we have now, or is there a generational change?  I am legitimately curious.

Third, look at the mentality of the people here as opposed to those in the "real world".  I say this because if you ask the green tabbers, red tabbers, brown tabbers, and long time black tabbers here about preparing for the APFT, most would mention something about what they needed to max each event.  Out in the real world, there is a different mentality, and people look at minimum numbers needed to just pass what ever test they have in front of them.

In many colleges, Vets are already a "special group", much like some minorities or handicapped.  They get priority registration, ceremonies on certain holidays, and even different financial benefits (GI Bill, certain scholarships and grants, etc).  There are programs out there to educate professors about how different it is to teach a combat veteran as opposed to some 18 year old that idolizes Miley Cyrus, or even how to deal with different responses they may get from Vets.  At least the University I went to had most of these things in place and worked with other Universities to try and improve each other's programs.

It is NOT the job of the school to help a Vet succeed in some areas, BUT colleges should have tools/programs to help Vets help themselves to succeed.  A VA rep, academic counselors, psychological counselors, support groups, tutoring centers, faculty mentors, an MWR room, just for Vets, partnerships with local VA and Red Cross centers, etc.

While I have seen a few instances of "I'm a Vet, you should bend over and help me", most of what I am seeing is, "You've sacrificed enough for us, we can sacrifice some for you."  This can be the right answer in many instances, but easily turned into the wrong answer if implemented in the wrong way.


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## 0699 (Nov 13, 2013)

goon175 said:


> I also agree with @racing_kitty on the fact that many probably quit school not because they don't have the intellectual capacity to do the work, but rather they just get fed up with *professors who talk down to them*, *fellow students who are clueless*, and a general idea of "I feel like I am back in kindergarten".


 
1) I had to tell one professor instructor "I'm a GySgt in the Marines, not an 18 YO student; don't treat me like one".

2) I took a World Religions class.  Basically, every week was exposure to a  different religion, followed by a test the following week.  One student would spend half the class using the Bible to explain why religion XXX was wrong.  The instructor wouldn't stop him.  I finally had to announce in class "I'm not here to learn your thoughts on the Bible; I'm here to learn what I need to know to pass this class.  Shut up."


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## reed11b (Nov 13, 2013)

goon175 said:


> I also agree with @racing_kitty on the fact that many probably quit school not because they don't have the intellectual capacity to do the work, but rather they just get fed up with professors who talk down to them, fellow students who are clueless, and a general idea of "I feel like I am back in kindergarten".


 Yup. 100% on the money in my case at least.
Reed


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## LogDog0402 (Nov 13, 2013)

Some schools that have Vets on staff assign them to work with Vet students to help them succeed and point them in the right direction for helpful resources.  This has been my experience when I was getting my MBA and also as I am now working on a second undergrad degree in Computer Animation.  In the masters program there were several other Vets and retirees so we could all relate.  In my second undergrad that has not been the case, I have come across very few fellow Vets.  I should note that I am taking online classes now because there is no way I could deal with the 18yo's that haven't done shit but smoke weed.


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## DA SWO (Nov 13, 2013)

goon175 said:


> The author is making the assumption that dropping out of college is synonymous with failure. I disagree, but will admit that sometimes it does. What about the statistic about veterans being twice as successful compared to their non-military peers in entrepreneurship? I only say that to bring up that there is more than one metric to measure success.


Have to agree, dropping out may just be a door opening into another career.


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## CDG (Nov 13, 2013)

LogDog0402 said:


> I should note that I am taking online classes now because there is no way I could deal with the 18yo's that haven't done shit but smoke weed.


 
Not picking on you here, LogDog, but this comment reminded me of a point I had for this thread.  We don't do ourselves any favors as a group by acting like every single person who has never served is a dope smoking, pacifist, whiney piece of shit.  I am guilty of it as well, but we do the exact thing we blast others for at times.   I took several semesters at a CC in Virginia, and there were definitely students that fit the stereotype we typically apply to non-vets.  However, the majority of them did not fit this stereotype.  Most were ignorant, but a lot of them were genuinely interested in learning more about the military and how being a veteran shaped a differet worldview.  Going into college with the attitude that everyone you meet is going to fit a certain stereotype is not setting yourself up for success.


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## LogDog0402 (Nov 13, 2013)

CDG said:


> Not picking on you here, LogDog, but this comment reminded me of a point I had for this thread.  We don't do ourselves any favors as a group by acting like every single person who has never served is a dope smoking, pacifist, whiney piece of shit.  I am guilty of it as well, but we do the exact thing we blast others for at times.   I took several semesters at a CC in Virginia, and there were definitely students that fit the stereotype we typically apply to non-vets.  However, the majority of them did not fit this stereotype.  Most were ignorant, but a lot of them were genuinely interested in learning more about the military and how being a veteran shaped a differet worldview.  Going into college with the attitude that everyone you meet is going to fit a certain stereotype is not setting yourself up for success.



Don't get me wrong, I looked for classroom settings first, it wasn't until I took the online classes that I realized for me it was a better choice.  The were other factors for me in this decision as well.  I'm 39 and have small kids and so those responsibilities along with being a Vet made it obvious to me that online for undergrad was a better way to go.  Had I been going for a second master's degree then it would have been different since I have more in common with that age group.  I prefer the classroom setting and the interaction with fellow students.


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