# Measles are gateway to total control



## LibraryLady (Mar 26, 2019)

Measles outbreak leads New York county to ban unvaccinated children from public spaces

How do you enforce this? Random inspections of papers? The world went thru that phase, do we have to do it again? 

History isn't fiction, people. Learn from it, don't repeat it.

LL


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## DasBoot (Mar 26, 2019)

I mean... the parents of the unvaccinated kids are putting all the other children at risk... and at the end of the day every school I went to required a physical or some sort of medical record to insure that kids were up to date on vaccinations.... so I wouldn’t jump to equating this to “let me see de papers for de feuhr.” I’m more pissed at the anti-vax movement than I am at the school board/state for this.


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## LibraryLady (Mar 26, 2019)

Don't get me started on those idiot anti-vaxxers.

BUT, the proper way to deal with them is not to make an ill-advised step like this.

Sure, they're not going to ask for papers, it's supposed to be retroactive, but how do they track people's movements to apply it retroactively? It's an unenforceable piece of crap.

Both the mass media and social media will spin this way out of control.

LL


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## Blizzard (Mar 26, 2019)

A slight aside...if a person doesn't get an annual flu shot, are they considered part of the anti-vax crowd too? Asking for a friend.


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## Board and Seize (Mar 27, 2019)

DasBoot said:


> I mean... the parents of the unvaccinated kids are putting all the other children at risk...



So I hear this a lot, and I've got two questions that I haven't heard addressed from this point of view (I'm honestly curious, not trying to be a troll or anything):

Situation: 2 kids, one is vaccinated, one isn't.  
The unvaccinated kid is supposedly putting the other at risk.  But if the other kid is vaccinated, what are they at risk of?



Disclaimer: I'm reasoning by analogy to antibiotics, but this might not be valid, I don't know.
I imagine that the near ubiquity of vaccines is placing massive selection pressure on the virus/bacteria in question, which means that the more we use them, the less effective they will become as the organism adapts.  If this leads to superbugs that can't be inoculated against, then the individual-level choice to vaccinate, while this may be the correct risk-reduction action, would actually _increase_ risk at the collective level.  If this reasoning holds up, then isn't every single parent who vaccinates their child(ren) putting everyone, possibly the entire species, at risk?

More disclamation: Obviously this sounds wildly hyperbolic.  And obviously, even if true, the 'blame' assigned to these parents would be super minuscule (as that risk of future vaccine-proof disease is unknown and shared across all the vaccinating parents).

I'm looking forward to hearing some thoughts and opinions about this!


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## DasBoot (Mar 27, 2019)

Board and Seize said:


> So I hear this a lot, and I've got two questions that I haven't heard addressed from this point of view (I'm honestly curious, not trying to be a troll or anything):
> 
> Situation: 2 kids, one is vaccinated, one isn't.
> The unvaccinated kid is supposedly putting the other at risk.  But if the other kid is vaccinated, what are they at risk of?




Kids who can’t be vaccinated due to allergies or other health issues are the main problem. So the kids who can’t be vaccinated are out at risk by those who’s parents chose not to Follow all pertinent medical advice. That’s where these outbreaks come from.


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## SaintKP (Mar 27, 2019)

Blizzard said:


> A slight aside...if a person doesn't get an annual flu shot, are they considered part of the anti-vax crowd too? Asking for a friend.



As someone who doesn't participate in annual flu shots because I never get sick (which is ironic because I'm recovering from bronchitis right now) I don't consider myself a anti-vaxxer. I understand the value and benefits of them and I'm vaccinated for the usual and you bet your ass the mini me whenever that happens is getting shot up as well.


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## LibraryLady (Mar 27, 2019)

Blizzard said:


> A slight aside...if a person doesn't get an annual flu shot, are they considered part of the anti-vax crowd too? Asking for a friend.


Until we started having other health problems (the joys of getting old) we didn't get flu shots either.

LL


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## Devildoc (Mar 27, 2019)

You can't enforce (a ban) unless people come clean about their vax status.

Of the people who do not vax, 20% are because of medical or religious reasons.  No amount of education will move this group.  80% choose to not vax because of what they read on the interwebs, or what their sister-in-law's cousin told them, etc.  This group can be reached.

Of the percentage attached to 'non-compliant' are parents who choose to split vaccinations into "non-approved" schedules (i.e., kids don't get them all at once and maybe over a few different visits) as well as people who vaccinate later than recommended.

Vaccinations are broken down into 2 groups: the mandatory (MMR, polio, etc.), and the gee-you-really-need-to (Hep A, flu, mening, etc.).

RE: flu shot, I get it for 2 reasons: 1) my employer mandates it, and 2) I have kids at home.  I am not worried about me, but I am worried about what I take home.  FWIW there have been over 130 deaths from flu in NC.


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## LibraryLady (Mar 27, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> ...I'm not worried about me, but I am worried about what I take home...


Money shot, right there. If people would adopt this attitude a little more, care about possibly infecting other people, we might not be in this mess.

LL


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## Box (Mar 27, 2019)

How can you ban kids?  I thought there was no such thing as illegal people?

Let these children do what they want - they're gonna get sick and die soon anyway - live and let live.


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## “The Old Man” (Mar 27, 2019)

Having been part of a program to T&E vaccines and medical enhancements for the military. I clearly see the need to vaccinate. Precisely for the reasons @Devildoc stated. However, I get deathly ill every time I have taken a flu shot. So I don't take it anymore. I took a pneumonia vaccination, ended up with pneumonia. So there is clearly a percentage of us for whom some vaccines are not an option. I say let folks decide whether or not to vaccinate. It's a matter of free will, in a free country. Isn't that what this is about?


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## DasBoot (Mar 27, 2019)




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## CQB (Mar 27, 2019)

There are negative externalities with non-vaccination. 

The True Dollar Cost of the Anti-Vaccine Movement


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## Devildoc (Mar 27, 2019)

CQB said:


> There are negative externalities with non-vaccination.
> 
> The True Dollar Cost of the Anti-Vaccine Movement



Not to mention cost in lost productivity and wages.  But the article looks at the extreme edge of the problem.  The most reasonable and frequent is your kid does not get the chicken pox vaccine, he is out of school for 5 days.

Public health costs are way, way, WAY higher with other diseases like sexually transmitted infections, opioid epidemic, etc.


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## CQB (Mar 27, 2019)

Agreed there, the article did highlight an extreme.


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## Dame (Mar 29, 2019)

Board and Seize said:


> So I hear this a lot, and I've got two questions that I haven't heard addressed from this point of view (I'm honestly curious, not trying to be a troll or anything):
> 
> Situation: 2 kids, one is vaccinated, one isn't.
> The unvaccinated kid is supposedly putting the other at risk.  But if the other kid is vaccinated, what are they at risk of?



Funny thing is, it's the other way around. Those who have not been vaccinated for polio can get it from a baby who has just been vaccinated.
Staten Island dad gets $22.5M in polio case vs. Lederle Laboratories

For the record, I am not anti-vaccination. I had my youngest vaccinated and made sure those vaccinations did not contain the mercury preservatives. Guess what? Autism anyway cuz, heredity. Been running in my family for generations (and I am no exception to the rule).

ETA: As far as the OP, crazy runs rampant in NY and there ain't no cure.


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## Brill (Mar 30, 2019)

Dame said:


> ETA: As far as the OP, crazy runs rampant in NY and there ain't no cure.



Once Cuomo is able to calculate it, he plans on taxing crazy to generate revenue.


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## “The Old Man” (Apr 9, 2019)

Health commissioner in Williamsburg (Brooklyn) orders ALL residents to get vaccinated or pay a $1000.00 fine. 300+ cases reported as of 6 hours ago. I am in Newport RI in prep for a funeral at Exeter. Just saw the report on the channel 12 news. https:///twitter.com/NYCHealthCommr?ref_src=twsrc%5Egoogle%7Ctwcamp%5Eserp%7Ctwgr%5Eauthor


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## coolusername (Apr 14, 2019)

I am actually Autistic and its kinda insulting when someone says they won't vaccinate because they don't want their kids to become Autistic. They would rather their kids get measles or whatever than Autism.


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## Ooh-Rah (Apr 28, 2019)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1122301771148251136


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## Florida173 (Apr 28, 2019)

I couldn't go to college without producing a vaccination record of MMR. So why wouldn't this be a thing already?


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## CQB (Apr 28, 2019)

The link between Autism & the MMR jab has been disproved. But I won’t vaccinate my dog against distemper, he might get autism. 


coolusername said:


> I am actually Autistic and its kinda insulting when someone says they won't vaccinate because they don't want their kids to become Autistic. They would rather their kids get measles or whatever than Autism.


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## Devildoc (Apr 28, 2019)

Florida173 said:


> I couldn't go to college without producing a vaccination record of MMR. So why wouldn't this be a thing already?



a couple thoughts. Number one, you can still go if you didn't get vaccinations because of religious or medical exemption. Number two, this is where I really want to see the data, methinks the gross significance of this is from immigrants, and not the people who choose to not the unvaccinated. 

I could be wrong, but I think I'm right.


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## Cookie_ (Apr 28, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> a couple thoughts. Number one, you can still go if you didn't get vaccinations because of religious or medical exemption. Number two, this is where I really want to see the data, methinks the gross significance of this is from immigrants, and not the people who choose to not the unvaccinated.
> 
> I could be wrong, but I think I'm right.



I'll try and find it when I get home, but I remember seeing something attributing increases in NYC to a sect of the Orthodox Jewish communities.


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## Devildoc (Apr 28, 2019)

Cookie_ said:


> I'll try and find it when I get home, but I remember seeing something attributing increases in NYC to a sect of the Orthodox Jewish communities.



I would love to see the data. I find that very interesting. I tried to look at what has been different. Generally speaking the percentage of people choosing to not vaccinate because of religious or medical reasons has not significantly changed. So what's different?


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## Cookie_ (Apr 28, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> I would love to see the data. I find that very interesting. I tried to look at what has been different. Generally speaking the percentage of people choosing to not vaccinate because of religious or medical reasons has not significantly changed. So what's different?


 
This isn't the original article I remember seeing, but it does talk about the issue. This article discusses it.

The author implies it's less about religion, and more the insular communities.



> The story in New York is familiar: Other tight-knit communities — like the Somali-Americancommunity in Minnesota, the Amish in Ohio, and, more recently, Russian-language immigrants in Washington — have recently fallen victim to measles outbreaks as a result of vaccine refusal. This New York outbreak is a reminder of how vulnerable more insular groups can be to anti-vaxxers, and the unique challenges for public health advocates in countering their messages in these communities.


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## Box (Apr 28, 2019)

I believe the term used is "science deniers"


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## Ooh-Rah (May 2, 2019)




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## Ooh-Rah (May 8, 2019)




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