# SEAL Combatives Program Under Scrutiny



## Centermass (Apr 6, 2016)

A veteran in Congress is calling on the secretary of defense to examine the current Navy SEAL combat training program, saying it's less effective than a previous method and not conducive to SEAL operations.

Rep. Duncan Hunter, a Republican from California, former Marine officer and member of the House Armed Services Committee, sent an April 5 letter to Defense Secretary Ashton Carter requesting that Carter provide "clarity" on Naval Special Warfare's 2011 move to replace its Close Quarters Defense institutionalized training system with Mixed Martial Arts.

"I have concerns with the process for considering and awarding the contracts that have led to the removal of CQD from SEAL training," Hunter wrote. "NSW operators and leadership have consistently determined CQD to be the most operationally effective training to prepare SEALs for combat, evidenced by more than 11,000 positive critiques and numerous complimentary reports."

"There have been reports that Szymanski is a central player in the selection of MMA over CQD," Joe Kasper, Hunter's chief of staff, told Military.com. "And it's important before any promotion proceeds that there's clarity on that role and assurances that it was all above board."

The letter also notes that CQD costs just $345 per SEAL compared to $2,900 for MMA training. It also refers to a 2015 Defense Department Inspector General review of NSW contracts that found about 25 percent of contracts inspected were not awarded in accordance with Federal Acquisition Regulations. While the MMA contract in question was not considered, Hunter suggested it too could contain problems.




Hmmm, $345.00 vs $2900.00? Lot's of possibilities to either defend it or attack it. Is one system actually more effective than the other? What's the dollar cost vs the life of an operator? Any funny business of those involved
directly to each other? (Congress - Contractor) Was there a specific bid or contractor request for this? Or was it "Rogue - ish" in nature according to the article?

Guess we'll see. My take on it is if it whatever works best for the Tms is the ideal solution. Course, as we all know, choices like this, are almost always made by those who think they know more......



Full Story


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## TLDR20 (Apr 6, 2016)

Every SEAL I know has told me how stupid Duane Dieters(CQD) training is. They all hate it, every single dude I talked to. Maybe that is anecdotal but I have had maybe 100 students who were SEALs, in my time as a staff instructor and as a contractor, and it is weird that not a single one liked it.


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## Gunz (Apr 7, 2016)

If the call for change is coming from the teams, they should get what they ask for. But I have seen some senior officers fall in love with nutty ideas and force their implementation. Hopefully this isn't one of those cases.


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## amlove21 (Apr 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Every SEAL I know has told me how stupid Duane Dieters(CQD) training is. They all hate it, every single dude I talked to. Maybe that is anecdotal but I have had maybe 100 students who were SEALs, in my time as a staff instructor and as a contractor, and it is weird that not a single one liked it.


100% agree. Ive spent a good amount of time with the TRADET and West Coast guys at this point- and I have the same experience. Not saying everyone needs to do SOCP or MACP or MCMAP or whatever- but it seems like they have a program that doesn't work.


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## DA SWO (Apr 9, 2016)

Question I have is the $2900 for a train the trainer program, or is that a recurring per student cost?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 9, 2016)

In the grand scheme of things $2900 is nothing cost wise, for a skill set that will allow you to break/kill your adversaries with your bare hands.


Not to steal Master Ken's saying but "CQD is bullshit" and IMO only really works with people who are already submissive. You try using CQD on an MMA fighter who doesn't want to play along and see what happens.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 10, 2016)

Just to add another unwanted opinion, I really wish LE and other "I might have to kick someone's ass" types would evolve already. Martial arts has been changed, the bullshit has been separated from reality and it's not going back. 

Yeah 'some' self defense systems offer the average person a way to break free and move out. But if your job is to go get/kill/arrest/control the bad guys of the world, you probably should invest more time into being a badass with and without weapons. That is MMA, good boxing, MT kick boxing, BJJ, wrestling, judo, etc.

If your a cop, soldier, fighter, etc and are not confident you can deal with one of these guy's, you're doing it wrong.


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## Centermass (Apr 10, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Just to add another unwanted opinion, I really wish LE and other "I might have to kick someone's ass" types would evolve already. Martial arts has been changed, the bullshit has been separated from reality and it's not going back.
> 
> Yeah 'some' self defense systems offer the average person a way to break free and move out. But if your job is to go get/kill/arrest/control the bad guys of the world, you probably should invest more time into being a badass with and without weapons. That is MMA, good boxing, MT kick boxing, BJJ, wrestling, judo, etc.
> 
> If your a cop, soldier, fighter, etc and are not confident you can deal with one of these guy's, you're doing it wrong.



Agree 100%.

NC was one of the first to incorporate BJJ techniques into their academy POI with the help of Irwin Carmichael, and Rickson Gracie. And has been a part of NCDOJ's POI ever since. Irwin was my D/T instructor. My 1st 1 minute spar with him (What's known as the fight for your life) is and was enough to have you realize no matter what kind of shape you think you're in, it illustrated just how quickly you gassed out. With practice and repetition, it's another skillset that will save your ass.







Irwin's a good man, the real deal, humble and now Sheriff of the largest county in NC. Rickson took a personal interest of helping Irwin and LE, after an incident with another LEO (Who was killed in the LOD) spawned his dedication. 

Irwin Carmichael


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 10, 2016)

Good BJJ training for LEO's is absolutely paramount. Funny thing about gasing out and having solid ground techniques, is you can always cover up, control position and hold out for the cavalry. No matter how out of shape one may get, short bursts to achieve position and control can absolutely mean the difference between life and death. That said, I'm a firm believer that if you put on a uniform that requires you to take responsibility for the sheep, you had better be as good and honestly better than the wolf.

$.02


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## Teufel (Apr 11, 2016)

The best martial arts system starts and ends with 5.56mm.  Maybe .45 cal.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 11, 2016)

Part of the problem of letting people pick who/what they want instead of going through the procurement/contracting process is that it often leads to corruption.  The SEALs in particular have been getting hammered over this lately, especially the ST6 guys and specifically the "I shot Bin Laden" ones.


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## Devildoc (Apr 11, 2016)

Duncan Hunter seems to have a real hard-on for NSW.  I know some are claiming he is just doing his job to monitor and provide oversight; my issue with this argument is that his oversight seems to be significantly regarding Naval Special Warfare and that other units and branches are sharing in his zeal.  I have also heard that he claims that because he was in the service he knows better than everyone else.  I just get a tad suspicious when non-SMEs suddenly tell SMEs how to do their job.


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## AWP (Apr 11, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> Duncan Hunter seems to have a real hard-on for NSW.  I know some are claiming he is just doing his job to monitor and provide oversight; my issue with this argument is that his oversight seems to be significantly regarding Naval Special Warfare and that other units and branches are sharing in his zeal.  I have also heard that he claims that because he was in the service he knows better than everyone else.  I just get a tad suspicious when non-SMEs suddenly tell SMEs how to do their job.



Pure cynicism and speculation on my part, but I wonder how much is backlash over the other negative PR generated by the SEAL community, primarily the DEVGRU guys? The gaming "scandal", the UBL books, the "torture"* in Afghanistan, the movie from a few years back, the hostage killed by a grenade, and maybe (just maybe) some comments from others into Hunter's ear?

* - I'm not judging those guys, but that's the sort of press that can sway other minds.


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## Devildoc (Apr 11, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Pure cynicism and speculation on my part, but I wonder how much is backlash over the other negative PR generated by the SEAL community, primarily the DEVGRU guys? The gaming "scandal", the UBL books, the "torture"* in Afghanistan, the movie from a few years back, the hostage killed by a grenade, and maybe (just maybe) some comments from others into Hunter's ear?
> 
> * - I'm not judging those guys, but that's the sort of press that can sway other minds.



Yeah, no doubt.  A quiet whisper here and there can pique the interest in the wrong way.  I don't know Hunter, or his old man (the former Congressman), except by rep, so in all fairness I have neither a clue about his interest in NSW nor a dog in the fight.  It seems, though, that all the press regarding Hunter is focused entirely on NSW.


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## Teufel (Apr 11, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> Yeah, no doubt.  A quiet whisper here and there can pique the interest in the wrong way.  I don't know Hunter, or his old man (the former Congressman), except by rep, so in all fairness I have neither a clue about his interest in NSW nor a dog in the fight.  It seems, though, that all the press regarding Hunter is focused entirely on NSW.


I raised an eyebrow when he was claiming that NSW didn't have enough rifles.  Next he will be telling us that they don't have enough book deals.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 11, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> Duncan Hunter seems to have a real hard-on for NSW.  I know some are claiming he is just doing his job to monitor and provide oversight; my issue with this argument is that his oversight seems to be significantly regarding Naval Special Warfare and that other units and branches are sharing in his zeal.  I have also heard that he claims that because he was in the service he knows better than everyone else.  I just get a tad suspicious when non-SMEs suddenly tell SMEs how to do their job.



He's been slamming the Army pretty hard too, over the Palantir issue and the Martland thing.  I get the sense he's equal-opportunity when it comes to going after possible military malfeasance.


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## TLDR20 (Apr 11, 2016)

Teufel said:


> I raised an eyebrow when he was claiming that NSW didn't have enough rifles.  Next he will be telling us that they don't have enough book deals.



SEALs have so much gear it makes me sick.


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## Brill (Apr 12, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> SEALs have so much gear it makes me sick.



Or jelly?


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## Brill (Apr 12, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> He's been slamming the Army pretty hard too, over the Palantir issue...



He's anti-Palantir? Is there even such a side?


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## Marauder06 (Apr 12, 2016)

lindy said:


> He's anti-Palantir? Is there even such a side?


No brother he's a pro-Palantir crusader.  He was after the Army for making us stick with that broke-ass DCGS.


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