# Surviving the Cut - USAF Combat Dive School



## Ravage (Aug 20, 2011)




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## amlove21 (Aug 20, 2011)

This show has a some PJ's out there a little miffed- lots of attention to the Controllers, not a lot of PJ's in there. I have my own opinion, but the show was well done.

I graduated the 3rd (I think) class out of the school, when the PJ's still did the rebreather portion. Not an easy school.


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## Johca (Aug 20, 2011)

Rumor has it from Lee Shaffer that closed circuit is being put back into the USAF dive school for all PJ's not just AFSOC assigned bubba's....

Just the FYI--the combat controllers go through the course with 3-level awarded and as an advanced skills course requirement (which is why they were in beret uniform).  PJs go through the course as a requirement for award of Parararescue 3-skill level (which is why they were not in beret uniform).  Thus being in a water environment is more likely for the PJ than the CCT.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 20, 2011)

I don't want to come across as a dick or anything, but isn't indoc kind of like a really difficult pre-scuba?(adding in lots of other horribleness obviously) In Rescue Warriors it seemed like they put a lot of emphasis on water tasks. I obviously don't know but have kinda been thinking about the Air Guard route into the PJ's(kinda).


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## amlove21 (Aug 20, 2011)

cback0220 said:


> I don't want to come across as a dick or anything, but isn't indoc kind of like a really difficult pre-scuba?(adding in lots of other horribleness obviously) In Rescue Warriors it seemed like they put a lot of emphasis on water tasks. I obviously don't know but have kinda been thinking about the Air Guard route into the PJ's(kinda).


I'd agree with that statement partially. While Indoc is extremely water focused (every day for 8-10 weeks), there is plenty of work on land also. The focus in Rescue Warriors (and practically everything else about Indoc) was the water because that's easily where the most people leave the course, be it for evaluation standards or simple quitting.

If you're thinking about doing it, use your resources here, I'll answer any questions you need and give whatever help I can.


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## Johca (Aug 20, 2011)

cback0220 said:


> I don't want to come across as a dick or anything, but isn't indoc kind of like a really difficult pre-scuba? In Rescue Warriors it seemed like they put a lot of emphasis on water tasks. I obviously don't know but have kinda been thinking about the Air Guard route into the PJ's(kinda).


It could be considered as such by those lacking confidence and those vulnerable to insecurity anxieties. 

Although military combat diver/swimmer qualifying courses have historically been the most physically demanding course to get through the Pararescue Indoctrination Course is more concerned with preparing individuals to perform duties and execute activities with survivability in the typical operation environments. 

The duress encountered in the typical operation environment increases the psychological demands on the individual’s successful performance related to skills performance and ability to keep up with physical demand of executing operations.

The screening and selecting methodologies of Pararescue Indoc although having primary purpose of preparing individual to get through all required subsequent courses and training required for award of Pararescue AFSC (MOS/NEC/RATE), it has secondary purpose of the required training for award of 3-skill level Pararescue AFSC is also the core essential mission training and qualification courses to accommodate giving survivability to perform pararescue duties in the typical operations environment.

Understanding survivability concerns is needing the understanding the Air Force considers it enlisted members having award of 3-skill level AFSC being a deployable human resource to send into combat and other dangerous operational environments to accomplish missions.

Consequently Pararescue Indoctrination Course, the mandatory required pipeline courses, and the USAF Combat Rescue Officer/Pararescue School is the personal protection qualification training giving survivability assurance that competing al the required training gives you the best readiness and reliability to perform pararescue duties that your instructors can give you. 

There are no guarantees of survivability on any given mission in operational environments and the Indoc course finds those individuals having the ability to perform such duties, gets them prepared to train, and then sends them into training. It is the operational environment encountered after training that drives the physical demands of all the training courses.


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## Johca (Aug 20, 2011)

cback0220 said:


> -- a lot of emphasis on water tasks. I obviously don't know but have kinda been thinking about the Air Guard route into the PJ's(kinda).


PJ/CRO utilization doesn’t change due to Regular AF (active duty) , AF Reserve, or Air Guard duty position. Utilization demarcation between Special Operations Forces capability and conventional forces utilization is insignificant for lack of better explanation in comparison to other capabilities constituted, sustained, and provided by the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marines.

The actual doing the duties of pararescue at any given unit has no distinct demarcation as the capability the USAF PJ is expected to give a mission commander whether conventional combat, special operations, or other as tasked by National Command authorities is the same. The capability purpose is be the surface effort to recover US military, DOD civilians and DOD contractor personnel, and other personnel directed by the President of the United States or Secretary of Defense. This commitment to recover any isolated personnel and sensitive materiel from hostile or uncertain environments, and denied areas includes being a National/International Search and Rescue capability. When the PJ asset is needed, it isn’t the flavor of the unit that is being asked for, it is the PJ capability. You will find AFSOC PJs doing civilian rescues and you will find conventional PJs doing what some might describe as special operations missions.




> U.S. National SAR Supplement:





> 2.12.3 DOD resources that may be available to assist include Air Force pararescue personnel, and specialized teams such as Army, Navy, and Air Force explosive ordnance disposal (EOD) teams, Navy sea-air-land (SEAL) teams.
> 
> 2.13.3 Air Force: resources include limited numbers of helicopters and fixed-wing aircraft capable of being used for civil SAR purposes. *In addition, limited numbers of pararescue personnel may be available to assist civil resources in specific situations.* The Air Force also operates radar sites either in conjunction with the FAA or as stand-alone systems that can be helpful when attempting to locate missing aircraft. These resources are listed below.
> 
> ...



Consequently all members of the USAF PJ speciality meet or exceed the exact same functional fitness and demonstrated ability to do standards and all PJs regardless of age, rank, and duty position sustain the same must be mission qualified to perform duties standards. The recruitment selection standard has always been quality-not quantity and the Air Force consistently since 1947 allowed manning shortfalls rather than to lower the quality-not quantity standards.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 20, 2011)

Johca said:


> PJ/CRO utilization doesn’t change due to Regular AF (active duty) , AF Reserve, or Air Guard duty position. Utilization demarcation between Special Operations Forces capability and conventional forces utilization is insignificant for lack of better explanation in comparison to other capabilities constituted, sustained, and provided by the Air Force, Army, Navy, Marines.
> 
> The actual doing the duties of pararescue at any given unit has no distinct demarcation as the capability the USAF PJ is expected to give a mission commander whether conventional combat, special operations, or other as tasked by National Command authorities is the same. The capability purpose is be the surface effort to recover US military, DOD civilians and DOD contractor personnel, and other personnel directed by the President of the United States or Secretary of Defense. This commitment to recover any isolated personnel and sensitive materiel from hostile or uncertain environments, and denied areas includes being a National/International Search and Rescue capability. When the PJ asset is needed, it isn’t the flavor of the unit that is being asked for, it is the PJ capability. You will find AFSOC PJs doing civilian rescues and you will find conventional PJs doing what some might describe as special operations missions.
> 
> Consequently all members of the USAF PJ speciality meet or exceed the exact same functional fitness and demonstrated ability to do standards and all PJs regardless of age, rank, and duty position sustain the same must be mission qualified to perform duties standards. The recruitment selection standard has always been quality-not quantity and the Air Force consistently since 1947 allowed manning shortfalls rather than to lower the quality-not quantity standards.



Johca, I understand that missions do not change guard vs. active. Nor do the reqs. I was just saying that it looked a lot like pre scuba on the documentary I watched. I also understand that the reason for that is because that is when guys bitch out the most. Like I said I wasnt trying to sharpshoot, I was just curious.


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## JustAnotherJ (Aug 20, 2011)

amlove21 said:


> I'd agree with that statement partially. While Indoc is extremely water focused (every day for 8-10 weeks), there is plenty of work on land also. The focus in Rescue Warriors (and practically everything else about Indoc) was the water because that's easily where the most people leave the course, be it for evaluation standards or simple quitting.
> 
> If you're thinking about doing it, use your resources here, I'll answer any questions you need and give whatever help I can.


The water is where all the drama is man.  Gotta have the drama, just like in that abortion of a "special" by National Geographic.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 20, 2011)

JustAnotherJ said:


> The water is where all the drama is man. Gotta have the drama, just like in that abortion of a "special" by National Geographic.



Yeah I got that brother. I will take my questions to the PM side.


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## Johca (Aug 21, 2011)

cback0220 said:


> Like I said I wasnt trying to sharpshoot, I was just curious.


I had no doubt you were curious, but  a suggestion of “but isn't indoc kind of like a really difficult pre-scuba” in an open has potential of confusing those having no military experience and background that the primary purpose of Indoc is a prescuba course when the preparatory training is for both immediate training and subsequent operations survivability.

Every training objective of the Indoc course has Human factors considerations having some purpose of minimizing or controlling operational risks typically chanced upon within a broad range of operating environments (psychological stress increases as one’s ability to cope with physical demands begins to get perceived as insufficient and as psychological stress increases task-focused coping and sound decision making begins to get impaired).


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## TLDR20 (Aug 21, 2011)

Johca said:


> I had no doubt you were curious, but a suggestion of “but isn't indoc kind of like a really difficult pre-scuba” in an open has potential of confusing those having no military experience and background that the primary purpose of Indoc is a prescuba course when the preparatory training is for both immediate training and subsequent operations survivability.
> 
> Every training objective of the Indoc course has Human factors considerations having some purpose of minimizing or controlling operational risks typically chanced upon within a broad range of operating environments (psychological stress increases as one’s ability to cope with physical demands begins to get perceived as insufficient and as psychological stress increases task-focused coping and sound decision making begins to get impaired).



I totally understand that brother. Wasn't downgrading it or anything like that just comparing it to something I would understand.


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## txpj007 (Aug 24, 2011)

wait for it.....

When is the last time CCT even employed subsurface ops operationally?  And yes the CFM is looking at putting closed circuit back in the pipeline.  Im not gonna go into TTP's here openly but there are more reasons for closed circuit than just being covert.


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## HCS1 (Nov 27, 2012)

amlove21 said:


> I'd agree with that statement partially. While Indoc is extremely water focused (every day for 8-10 weeks), there is plenty of work on land also. The focus in Rescue Warriors (and practically everything else about Indoc) was the water because that's easily where the most people leave the course, be it for evaluation standards or simple quitting.
> 
> If you're thinking about doing it, use your resources here, I'll answer any questions you need and give whatever help I can.


 

Hello,

You offered kindly your help for the guy who asked before me, and I grab the chance to ask a question, if I may...

Can you tell me where belongs  this USAF Combat Diver Course ? Under the JFK Special Warfare Cenre & School, or the Airforce Special Operations Command... or maybe somewhere else?
I've read a lot and watched the movie about this course, but I'm confused. It's called Air Force Combat Diver, so it would be logical if it belongs to the Air Force, but I've looked the chain of Special Operations Command and I didn't find it clear, where they are.

Thank you,

*Hotel Charlie>


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## amlove21 (Nov 27, 2012)

HCS1 said:


> Hello,
> 
> You offered kindly your help for the guy who asked before me, and I grab the chance to ask a question, if I may...
> 
> ...


I would be glad to help you with your question after you post your intro correctly as the site rules suggests.


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