# On Leadership



## goon175 (Dec 1, 2012)

We had company training the other day and the CO wanted to do a round table discussion as a Professional Development exercise. The topic is one that I am passionate about, and is one that has been surfacing a lot lately:

*Has the modern generation of soldier lost the art of garrison leadership due to being at war for 11+ years?*

Below are some of the points I made during the discussion, and I think this will make for a good topic here as well.


There is no such thing as garrison or combat leadership, there is just Leadership, period.
There is not much difference in the type of leadership employed, soldiers overseas still receive counseling statements, still attend boards, still have pay problems, still get there uniforms, etc. inspected, still go to sick call, still have marital problems, etc. that need to be solved by leaders. 
"The Art of Garrison Leadership" that is usually referenced by senior leaders bringing this up is referencing the 80's/90's era of the Army. I do not think that painting rocks, raking rocks, and performing other menial exercises is an example of good leadership of any kind. Spit shined boots and starched uniforms do not equal discipline either.
Discipline has not suffered, but standards are higher today. Example: Was a DUI a big deal in the 90's? Nope. Today: Pack your bags you'll be out of the Army within the month in recent cases.
I believe there are many senior leaders who are just wanting to get back to the "good ol' days" and saying we need "better garrison leadership" is just their way of doing it.
We have leaders who are experienced in both garrison and combat leadership today. Pre 9/11 we only had leaders who knew garrison (with exceptions of course).
 
I'm curious to see how many of you have heard this topic raised, and see what you think?


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## ProPatria (Dec 1, 2012)

I've done discussion/excersises like that before. I agree with all the points you brought up. Especially point #1.


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## pardus (Dec 2, 2012)

I despise the garrison mentality as a general rule, it breeds asshole leaders who focus more on their career than doing their job.


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## Marine0311 (Dec 2, 2012)

goon175 said:


> We had company training the other day and the CO wanted to do a round table discussion as a Professional Development exercise. The topic is one that I am passionate about, and is one that has been surfacing a lot lately:
> 
> *Has the modern generation of soldier lost the art of garrison leadership due to being at war for 11+ years?*
> 
> ...


 
I only disagreed with you on this point. Discipline can be instilled and maintained by performing these simple tasks. As a (former) NCO I would note if my Marines could be trusted to show up to formation on time, ensure that the uniform was squared away and so on because in my view if you could not handle that how could I trust you to handle bigger tasks? Then I would note your attitude about it. I would also use such tasks as raking rocks a means to punish because nobody really likes labor, it's a negative and if you were doing it my belief was you knew why you were raking rocks. Same with cleaning your room on a Saturday ("field day").


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## goon175 (Dec 2, 2012)

> show up to formation on time, ensure that the uniform was squared away and so on


 
And we still expect soldiers to show up on time, and we still expect their uniform to be squared away and look good. But a lot of folks are saying that we specifically need to go back to spits 'n starches to instill discipline. I don't agree with that because we still have uniform standards that must be maintained, just different ones then they used to be. I certainly am not suggesting that we quit enforcing standards by any means.

I still disagree with raking rocks. It's not an effective form of corrective action as it accomplishes nothing. Even if you are smoking them they are at least becoming stronger both physically and mentally. Or make them clean every weapon in the squad/section. Or, you wanna know what Joe really hates? Writing a 5-7 page paper in MLA format on a topic that would benefit him/her professionally. I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one, as I just don't see the benefit for either party in performing menial tasks as a form of corrective action. And the worst part, a lot of times guys would be raking rocks, etc. not because they got in trouble, but because the unit had no training planned and so their NCO's decided they were going to "earn their pay check". Absolutely sub-standard. Instead of taking their guys out to work on mag changes, do tape drills, practice battle drills, etc., they have them doing something that, again, benefits no one.


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## Marine0311 (Dec 2, 2012)

goon175 said:


> And we still expect soldiers to show up on time, and we still expect their uniform to be squared away and look good. But a lot of folks are saying that we specifically need to go back to spits 'n starches to instill discipline. I don't agree with that because we still have uniform standards that must be maintained, just different ones then they used to be. I certainly am not suggesting that we quit enforcing standards by any means.
> 
> I still disagree with raking rocks. It's not an effective form of corrective action as it accomplishes nothing. Even if you are smoking them they are at least becoming stronger both physically and mentally. Or make them clean every weapon in the squad/section. Or, you wanna know what Joe really hates? Writing a 5-7 page paper in MLA format on a topic that would benefit him/her professionally. I think we may have to agree to disagree on this one, as I just don't see the benefit for either party in performing menial tasks as a form of corrective action. *And the worst part, a lot of times guys would be raking rocks, etc. not because they got in trouble, but because the unit had no training planned and so their NCO's decided they were going to "earn their pay check".* Absolutely sub-standard. Instead of taking their guys out to work on mag changes, do tape drills, practice battle drills, etc., they have them doing something that, again, benefits no one.


 
We agree to disagree on my first point however I do agree with you on the highlighted of your post. If I counted the number of hours I had to do shit like that due to a lack of planned or poor leadership (or bored leadership) I wasted some of my 4 years active duty. I dislike "busy work" for the sake of shitty planning


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 2, 2012)

I think the problem is defining what garrison is in today’s Army. I also think that the “leadership” problem is a top down issue. When you have General Officers who are way out of Reg in the Height & Weight department, and field grade officers running around talking on cell phones and not returning salutes. Its becomes exponentially harder to enforce the standards on your joe’s with a straight face.

I spent my last 3 years at Fort Sam Houston/San Antonio Military Medical Center. The standards there was nothing more than a few (very few) senior NCO’s pointing out minor infractions and wanting to hear themselves “bark” at juniors, while the majority of the officers looked/acted like a bag of shit.

That said, the idea of fixing a whole unit of joe’s, or trying to fix the masses is lost upon itself. NCO’s fix what they can fix (i.e. their own soldiers) if they want to run around yelling at privates and specialist to get their hands out of their pockets/fix their head gear, well more power to them. I personally preferred to keep my joe’s out of sight and out of mind, focusing my “leadership” style on making sure they were good Infantryman and looked pretty when they needed too.

If I was forced to be a “garrison leader” full time, I would do what I had to do until my enlistment was up and I would seek life elsewhere.

.02


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## Mac_NZ (Dec 2, 2012)

I remember reading in the Book Grey Ghosts and it talked about how guys had just got back from Vietnam and had learned a lot of things the hard way.  They were basically told to forget what they knew, were going back to training for open country warfare like we did in WWII because that's where its at.

From my own experience a segment of the hierarchy don't like to be outside their comfort zone, a proper war is well outside their comfort zone.  They are more impressed with their own knowledge of the regulation length of sideburns and proper employment of the drill cane than they are in the ability to consistently call a 2nd round hit adjusting an 81mm.  They like things where all their doctrinal learning can't be refuted or put to the test. 

They hark back to their spit and polish days as something to strive to simply because its what they know, its an environment in which they can excel.  This past decade has been a scary place for them.  Discipline is staying alert at O'dark hundred on sentry because your mates are relying on you.  Its not ensuring your nose hairs are all trimmed in a disciplined military fashion.


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## Snaquebite (Dec 2, 2012)

..


> .a leader should strive to be an individual of flawless character, technical competence, and moral courage….You start with a cornerstone—honesty—and from there you build character. If you have character, that means the guy you are dealing with can trust you….Character provides a leader with a moral compass that focuses his efforts on the values we cherish: courage, honesty, selflessness, and respect for our fellow man…The bottom line is that leaders have entrusted to them the most precious commodity this country possesses; the lives of America’s sons and daughters.
> 
> 
> SAMUEL W. FLOCA JR.
> Colonel, USA, Retired


 
IMHO this holds true in garrison or war.....the standards remain the same. 
​


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## digrar (Dec 2, 2012)

Mac_NZ said:


> I remember reading in the Book Grey Ghosts and it talked about how guys had just got back from Vietnam and had learned a lot of things the hard way. They were basically told to forget what they knew, were going back to training for open country warfare like we did in WWII because that's where its at.


 
Haven't seen any Kiwi books on Viet Nam, I just zipped that over to my kindle. 

I've heard the same sort of thing coming from our side of the Tasman recently. I think we really got on board with the Jungle thing after Viet Nam and proceeded to make that our default training environment, I spent time in close country on my Infantry employment course, recon course, a couple of tracking courses, multiple times in Company and Platoon training exercises, on overseas exchange, battle schools and pre deployment training. I've heard from boys coming back from the desert and being sent straight back to Tully or Canungra to get back to Viet Nam era SOPs.


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## 18C4V (Dec 2, 2012)

It's going to get alot worse especially with the drawdown.  Look at the current SMA whose trying to implement different policies which bring back the pre-911 memories. I'm glad that I ETSed and went guard. I only have to put up with this on a part time basis vs the AD guys who have to put up with this full time.


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## policemedic (Dec 3, 2012)

goon175 , has your CO been to the two-way range?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 3, 2012)

I am going to rewind a bit and give a personal opinion on the “no difference between garrison and combat, leadership is leadership” mentality. I fully disagree, and my personal experience as a TL, SL in Infantry units, and my Instructor experiences in the garrison and field training environment, tell me that they are nothing of the same. Yes standing in a formation is the same wherever you go. But simply standing in front of that formation, doing regulation checks/corrections is not leadership. It is however one of the duties, but probably the most simple and easy one to do.

Leadership in garrison is all about looking pretty (meeting the regs), keeping your soldiers out of trouble (don’t make the unit look bad), keeping them ready in their specialties (technical training) and supervising them in garrison tasks (making sure those stupid tasks nobody wants to do, get done).

Leadership in field training is making sure soldiers are ready for the training, properly equipped, and gaining the specific knowledge, while attempting to learn your soldier’s capabilities and limitations. Then taking those, and further evaluating your soldier’s effectiveness. Then defining further training to make your soldiers more effective (i.e. preparing them for their mission in combat).

Leadership in combat is trusting your soldiers and their training (i.e. your field training leadership) and effectively leading them in their mission tasks. A combat leader must have the confidence of his soldiers, their loyalty, and the ability to trust his soldiers to accomplish tasks within the mission objectives. A good combat leader knows how to read his soldiers, knows how to advise his superiors of capabilities and limitations and knows when to jump out front and rally his soldiers to “FOLLOW” him through that door, up that hill and through that hail of bullets to get the mission objective done.

If Garrison and Combat leadership were the same, why would we have combat leadership schools such as Ranger school, when we already have MOS specific leadership schools like NCOES’s? Anyone who has stepped onto an actual battle field knows there is a difference, regardless if they will admit it or not.

The number one difference between garrison, training and combat leadership in my opinion. Is in garrison and somewhat in training you as a leader and your soldier’s failures are correctable, but in combat they normally result in a soldier’s death or serious injury, and become virtually uncorrectable until after the mission is completed.

Outside of that, I think the big problem is the context of the type of garrison discipline the Army wants and how it was lost in the first place. It was not lost on Sep 11, 2001. It was lost in mid 2005 through 2006, when the Army ditched the BDU’s and went to ACU’s without a clear regulation. It was Joe’s wearing fluff-puff uniforms and fucked up berets without clear regulations for NCO’s to enforce. Some NCO’s made shit up, some used the old shit, and some simply waited until the new reg came out. Then if we also look at the standards, height & weight, NCOES’s, promotions, etc. We can see that the Army granted the total force waivers in not meeting the standards due to ongoing deployments, etc. Hell the Army would grant entire unit’s waivers for important standards like “weapons qualification” as long as 70% could meet the standard. How can an NCO enforce a standard, if the Army won’t even enforce them?

I mean could you imagine Ranger Regiment (TL’s, SL’s and PL’s with limited experience, leadership schooling, etc), or Special Forces Regiment (no assessments, no Q course, no follow-on schools, etc) throwing their standards out the window, allowing leaders to not meet standards and still expecting them to perform to the same level? Well that is pretty much what the Conventional Army hierarchy did, while trying to learn and fight in a doctrine where they were completely unfamiliar.

The main point, the Army needs to re-define the standards, re-write the regulations to meet the garrison and combat force they want to maintain. Then they need to retrain the leadership as a whole in those new standards/regs and then have them retrain the force as a whole. I believe that is what the new SMA is trying to do, and I think it will take a long time to get it right again. Sometimes you just have to see outside of your A/O and get a good view of the bigger picture.


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## goon175 (Dec 3, 2012)

Policemedic - He was deployed to Kuwait, he is a SigO, and for the record he agrees with me on most of my points.

Jab - Maybe I should clarify, combat and garrison are not the same types of leadership, but the good Leader can and will do both - not just one or the other. My main gripe here is that they (some senior leaders) are saying the current generation soldier is incapable of garrison leadership. I whole-heartedly disagree, mostly for the reasons you bring up. It's a top-down issue, almost all of the problems we are seeing right now are because of failed leadership at the highest levels.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 3, 2012)

I'll go along with that to a point, the other big issue is leaders wanting to stay when the Army goes super garrison. Simply because someone makes the choice that they don't want to play that game, and decides to hang the hat up, doesn’t make them a bad leader. However, failing to meet ones duties, regardless of environment, is simply unacceptable.


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## policemedic (Dec 3, 2012)

goon175 said:


> Policemedic - He was deployed to Kuwait, he is a SigO, and for the record he agrees with me on most of my points.


 
Fair enough; for some reason I had the impression he disagreed.  

I'm of the opinion that leadership is practiced in the same fashion regardless of the setting.  Garrison, combat, office environment...it's all the same.  The means by which leadership is demonstrated may vary i.e. charging up a hill isn't the only way to show leadership, but leadership is leadership no matter what.


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## goon175 (Dec 3, 2012)

Nah, He has been taking the same heat that the NCO's have been, not being old school enough. He posed the question since our company has a mix of soldiers who served Pre-9/11 and Post.

Ex.-
"Sir, where is your little green leaders book with all of your soldiers' information? How are you supposed to keep track of your guys and lead them?"
CO: "Well, I have all of that on an Excel spreadsheet on my laptop, which I am required to carry with me everywhere anyway. Also, I have all of my soldiers' birthdays, spouses names, and kids' names memorized."


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## policemedic (Dec 3, 2012)

goon175 said:


> Nah, He has been taking the same heat that the NCO's have been, not being old school enough. He posed the question since our company has a mix of soldiers who served Pre-9/11 and Post.
> 
> Ex.-
> "Sir, where is your little green leaders book with all of your soldiers' information? How are you supposed to keep track of your guys and lead them?"
> CO: "Well, I have all of that on an Excel spreadsheet on my laptop, which I am required to carry with me everywhere anyway. Also, I have all of my soldiers' birthdays, spouses names, and kids' names memorized."


 
The age-old problem of being process-driven instead of goal-focused.  Those that concentrate on process often can't achieve the goal by anything resembling innovative means, nor can they appreciate the ability of others to do precisely that.


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## Brill (Dec 4, 2012)

Yeah, lack of standards will create a bunch of wild soldiers like those SF guys.  I mean who in hell wears multicams to award ceremonies?

Oh, wait...I know!

Spit shining does have its place (Old Guard) but it's pointless to work on tasks with no real impact when there is a finite amount of time available.  Spit & polish or quality training?

France's army looks sharp.  Need I really say more?:-/


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## 0699 (Dec 4, 2012)

goon175 said:


> Nah, He has been taking the same heat that the NCO's have been, not being old school enough. He posed the question since our company has a mix of soldiers who served Pre-9/11 and Post.
> 
> Ex.-
> "Sir, where is your little green leaders book with all of your soldiers' information? How are you supposed to keep track of your guys and lead them?"
> CO: "Well, I have all of that on an Excel spreadsheet on my laptop, which I am required to carry with me everywhere anyway. Also, I have all of my soldiers' birthdays, spouses names, and kids' names memorized."


 
2003.  We got a new LT (She was a cunt.  Seriously.  No offense.).  I was going down to do a pre-deployment inspection on a team going out and she followed me down and tagged along as I walked through inspecting their gear.  It was (as usual) more a "are you ready mentally" than a "do you have six t-shirts" inspection; shit wasn't even folded, just laid out on their poncho liners.  As I go along I'm asking the guys about the usual shit, "how's your wife fixed financially", "where are you leaving your new car", and "how are you going to pay your bills"?  The usual stuff...

Walking back to the office, she asks me, "how do you know so much about the Marine's personal lives?"  I give her my professional blank stare for a few seconds and reply with "I sit down and talk to them whenever I get the chance" (The "dumbass" thought went unsaid...).  She's quiet a for a few minutes, then says...

"I don't have time for that.  Can you make me a spread sheet or something?"


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## 0699 (Dec 4, 2012)

This was the same one that didn't run PT with the platoon because "90% of them are faster then me anyway", so she went to the gym and did aerobics instead.

Also the one that when the battalion XO would call, even when she answered the phone, would ask to speak to me.  She came in my office one day and asked "Why does the XO always want to talk to you instead of me?"

Yeah, I still have issues about the whole situation...


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## goon175 (Dec 4, 2012)

Wow.... way to go "Ma'am"....

Luckily, my current CO actually does know the guys, and takes an interest in them. I remember one time I made an off hand comment about how I couldn't find any bratwurst in the grocery stores in my area, and it was a bummer b/c I really enjoy grilling out with them. A week or two later I drop by his office and lo and behold he has two packages of brat's sitting in his mini fridge for me. That's the kind of stuff that shows you actually care about your soldiers and are listening when they talk. If all you are doing is giving lip service to your soldiers, your doing both them and yourself a great dis-service.


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