# Germany wins Strong Europe Tank Challenge.



## Deleted member 12579 (Jun 9, 2018)

Germany Takes the Prize in the Strong Europe Tank Challenge


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## Kraut783 (Jun 9, 2018)

Well done Tankers


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## Gunz (Jun 9, 2018)

Panzers. Jawohl.


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## AWP (Jun 9, 2018)

That's a bit surprising given the state of the German armed forces. They are in a bad state.


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## Deleted member 12579 (Jun 10, 2018)

AWP said:


> That's a bit surprising given the state of the German armed forces. They are in a bad state.


Even their SOF?


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## AWP (Jun 10, 2018)

Eagle 92-94 said:


> Even their SOF?



Can't speak to that, but their conventional forces are rough right now due to a lack of funding. No serviceable subs, new frigates coming online are busted, air force is in bad shape, etc.

What little I was around them in Afghanistan, good dudes, but their leadership is horrible. WWII wrecked their mentality. "Safe" doesn't describe them.


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## Kraut783 (Jun 10, 2018)

Ran into a few of their SOF in Afghanistan in 2002, they had a couple of tents in the CJSOTF compound.  Like AWP said, they were good dudes and from talking to them they wanted to do much more while there...but their leadership was very restrictive.  I did see a few more later in the year out in Asadabad....one thing I loved...they always deploy with cigars and beer, and always willing to sit down and talk, smoke and drink.


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## Deleted member 12579 (Jun 10, 2018)

AWP said:


> Can't speak to that, but their conventional forces are rough right now due to a lack of funding. No serviceable subs, new frigates coming online are busted, air force is in bad shape, etc.
> 
> What little I was around them in Afghanistan, good dudes, but their leadership is horrible. WWII wrecked their mentality. "Safe" doesn't describe them.



And we were supposed to rely on them during the Cold War. I guess the East Germans received a lot of praise and were considered formidable. Sad to read this about modern Germany. They need to invest in their defense.


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## Kraut783 (Jun 10, 2018)

Not really rely on them, we had a heavy military presence in Germany during that time. West Germany was still re-building and their military was in a bad state, understandably.


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## AWP (Jun 10, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> Ran into a few of their SOF in Afghanistan in 2002, they had a couple of tents in the CJSOTF compound.  Like AWP said, they were good dudes and from talking to them they wanted to do much more while there...but their leadership was very restrictive.  I did see a few more later in the year out in Asadabad....one thing I loved...they always deploy with cigars and beer, and always willing to sit down and talk, smoke and drink.



I worked around their airborne/SF brigade (they consolidated into one command at some point) and they were all good dudes. The national civilian/ star-level military leadership was failing them. I think that is a result of WWII and the DEEP injuries that caused to their psyche. Those paratroopers ached to mix it up but were restricted to patrols and avoiding contact.


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## KiloPapa (Jun 11, 2018)

AWP said:


> Can't speak to that, but their conventional forces are rough right now due to a lack of funding. No serviceable subs, new frigates coming online are busted, air force is in bad shape, etc.
> 
> What little I was around them in Afghanistan, good dudes, but their leadership is horrible. WWII wrecked their mentality. "Safe" doesn't describe them.


Pretty much what I heard from a guy I know who worked on the S-4 shop alongside Germans in a multinational battallion. «Safe» and «bureaucratic» don’t even begin to describe the approach to everything.


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## Deleted member 12579 (Jun 11, 2018)

KiloPapa said:


> Pretty much what I heard from a guy I know who worked on the S-4 shop alongside Germans in a multinational battallion. «Safe» and «bureaucratic» don’t even begin to describe the approach to everything.



Excuse us. Are you Taliban? If so is it ok if we shoot at you? Donke Schon. :)


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## Deleted member 12579 (Jun 11, 2018)

I always found these remarks from Operation Anaconda interesting. It made me realize how political things were for the Germans.

Operation Anaconda was also met with criticism. According to an interview[33] of some soldiers of the German Special Forces KSK, the post-operation briefing was broken down by an argument between the KSK soldiers and U.S. soldiers. The cause of the conflict is said to have been the complaint of some U.S. soldiers that the KSK soldiers had only changed their position when a shepherd stumbled into their hideout instead of killing him. "Use your silenced gun, then move on."[33]

_"The U.S. soldiers would in fact eliminate such 'threats,' says a former KSK officer. (...) The Germans are quoted to have witnessed U.S. Forces flattening entire villages during Operation Anaconda: 'Let's go, free to pillage' (...). A former KSK commander is quoted in the German magazine_ Stern _to have said: 'The pictures of Abu Ghraib, the torture in Iraqi prison camps, did absolutely not surprise me.'_[33]


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