# MoH to be awarded to SOCM Slabinski



## BloodStripe (May 7, 2018)

President Donald J. Trump to Award the Medal of Honor

On 24 May 2018 the POTUS will award SOCM Britt Slabinski for his actions during a firefight in 2002 in what is now known as the battle at Robert's Ridge. 

Semper Fi, SOCM!


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## Marauder06 (May 7, 2018)

I read about that earlier, and I have mixed feelings.  It seems to me that some might see this as the MOH being a consolation prize for ops gone wrong, or a political tool, rather than a legit award.  Anyone else have any thoughts on this?


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## BloodStripe (May 7, 2018)

My own thought is that you shouldn't punish a Soldier, Sailor, Airmen, or Marine on the ground for recovering from a shitty situation and making what they think is the best attempt to move forward (assumig they are fighting ethically). Yes, it's easy to arm chair General and critique afterwards, but bullets and RPGs require you to make a split second decision and you live with whatever decision you make. It may not always the best decision but unlike a video game, you can't pause what's going on around you and strategize. This is why you debrief afterwards and discuss.


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## Marauder06 (May 7, 2018)

I'm not judging him for what he did.  You make the decisions you make at the time and deal with it later.  But I don't think what he did warrants The Medal.

The Navy SEALs allegedly left a man behind in Afghanistan. Did they also try to block his Medal of Honor?


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## Ooh-Rah (May 7, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> I'm not judging him for what he did.  You make the decisions you make at the time and deal with it later.  But I don't think what he did warrants The Medal.
> 
> The Navy SEALs allegedly left a man behind in Afghanistan. Did they also try to block his Medal of Honor?



That link you posted I  now remember.  Need to go back and read later.


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## CDG (May 7, 2018)

What a shitshow.


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## amlove21 (May 7, 2018)

Chappy's family still makes cookies for deployed dudes. I've met Slab and heard his version of events first hand, out on the Island. 

That being said- what the fuck man.


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## Teufel (May 7, 2018)

NSW has a history of throwing medals at tragedies.

Meanwhile Rafael Peralta still hasn’t been awarded the Medal of Honor for pulling a grenade to his chest and giving his life to save his squad mates.


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## DA SWO (May 7, 2018)

Two MoH's from that mission.


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## Centermass (May 8, 2018)

There is no such animal as a "CMOH" 

It's one of the most misused titles and acronyms there is.


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## BloodStripe (May 8, 2018)

Centermass said:


> There is no such animal as a "CMOH"
> 
> It's one of the most misused titles and acronyms there is.



After doing some research I believe you are correct. I think the term more than likely derived from the Congressional Medal of Honor Society, which is the society that can be read about in Title 36 U.S.C. Chapter 33. 

Link: CMOHS.org - Official Website of the Congressional Medal of Honor Society


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## Devildoc (May 8, 2018)

I believe he currently holds a Navy Cross for the same action.  I kinda agree with @Marauder06 , impressive it might be, does it warrant The Medal?  It seems they are splitting hairs to give it to him and it seems to be politically motivated.  To speak to @Teufel 's comments, other studs do the deed and get less acclaim.


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## AWP (May 8, 2018)

Upgrading from a service cross has a number of precedents, so this isn't unusual. Seeing two such "upgrades" for the same battle in less than a week is unusual. 

Even last year's Intercept article which blasts ST6 and Slabinski stated that his Navy Cross wasn't high enough.

This wouldn't be a blip on the radar if it wasn't for ST6's drama and the massively negative hype cloud over SEALs in general right now. Eh, they made the bed, I hope the book and movie deals were worth it.


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## Devildoc (May 8, 2018)

AWP said:


> Upgrading from a service cross has a number of precedents, so this isn't unusual. Seeing two such "upgrades" for the same battle in less than a week is unusual.
> 
> Even last year's Intercept article which blasts ST6 and Slabinski stated that his Navy Cross wasn't high enough.
> 
> This wouldn't be a blip on the radar if it wasn't for ST6's drama and the massively negative hype cloud over SEALs in general right now. Eh, they made the bed, I hope the book and movie deals were worth it.



Upgrading I know.  I can see how it is another example in the slobbering love affair with NSW.  ST6 indeed made their bed, but now they ant to be all lippy about criticism.  Can't have it both ways.  But their is no love lost between ST6 and STS24 and this whole MOH thing is icing that cake.


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## Ooh-Rah (May 8, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Upgrading I know.  I can see how it is another example in the slobbering love affair with NSW.  ST6 indeed made their bed, but now they ant to be all lippy about criticism.  Can't have it both ways.  But their is no love lost between ST6 and STS24 and this whole MOH thing is icing that cake.



Followed this when it happened, remember the aftermath.  Went back and read the relevant links this morning; my Reader's Digest interpretation:

-  Chapman was behind the lines and calling for help.
-  ST6 (Slabinski) got to the injured Chapman and under fire, made the determination that Chapman was dead, and pulled back; leaving Chapman.
-  After being left, Chapman got back into the fight and was eventually killed.
-  SEAL's refuse to believe Chapman was not dead when they left him
-  Video is eventually released that supports AF's claims
-  SEAL's did not want Chapman do get MOH because it would (in their eyes) make them look bad
-  Air Force do not want Slabinski to get MOH because (in their eyes) he left their man behind.
-  Folks are pissed that under the muddy circumstances that the Navy would even consider writing their man up for the MOH
-  Perception by many is that Navy is only doing this to "save face" for the SEAL's and balance the score. (in their eyes).

Yes?
No?
Pretty close?


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## Devildoc (May 8, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Followed this when it happened, remember the aftermath.  Went back and read the relevant links this morning; my Reader's Digest interpretation:
> 
> -  Chapman was behind the lines and calling for help.
> -  ST6 (Slabinski) got to the injured Chapman and under fire, made the determination that Chapman was dead, and pulled back; leaving Chapman.
> ...



Golf claps for an excellent summation...


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## Ooh-Rah (May 8, 2018)

Daily Mail just picked up the story.  Does not paint the SEAL's in very good light:

Navy SEALs try to block Medal of Honor recommendation for airman | Daily Mail Online

A bitter dispute has erupted between two sections of the US Armed Forces over whether President Trump should agree to grant a Medal of Honor recommendation to an airman for his actions during a disastrous mission in Afghanistan.

The Air Force say Technical Sergeant John Chapman should receive the award for heroically fighting Al-Qaeda fighters for an hour after being left for dead by a team of Navy Seals in March 2002, citing a new analysis of drone footage as evidence.

But the SEALs have angrily insisted Chapman had already been killed by the time they retreated and have been lobbying against the Air Force’s application to grant him the posthumous award. Six other US died during the mission, named Anaconda. 

'The SEALs did not want to be told—officially—that they left a comrade on that mountain alive,' a former defense official told Newsweek.

The Air Force, meanwhile, insist Chapman deserved the honor for what they believe was a heroic last stand and say the SEALs are just trying to protect their reputation.

They are also furious that the SEAL commander accused of leaving him for dead, Chief Britt Slabinski, will himself receive the top award at the White House this week, it was announced on Monday.


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## amlove21 (May 8, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Followed this when it happened, remember the aftermath.  Went back and read the relevant links this morning; my Reader's Digest interpretation:
> 
> -  Chapman was behind the lines and calling for help.
> -  ST6 (Slabinski) got to the injured Chapman and under fire, made the determination that Chapman was dead, and pulled back; leaving Chapman.
> ...


Pretty damn close.


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## DA SWO (May 8, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Daily Mail just picked up the story.  Does not paint the SEAL's in very good light:
> 
> Navy SEALs try to block Medal of Honor recommendation for airman | Daily Mail Online
> 
> ...


There is an easy way to see who is correct and who isn't.
Release any Pred footage that may exist.


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## AWP (May 8, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> There is an easy way to see who is correct and who isn't.
> Release any Pred footage that may exist.



The footage supports Chapman’s nod and just about anyone who has seen it will agree he was still alive. I’ve seen the arguments that Al Q had a Blue on Blue moment instead of engaging Chapman, but I think it is crap.

I’ve seen the footage and firmly believe Chapman was alive.

The more I think about it, the more this seems like a tit for tat award process as a political compromise. This isn’t close to the first time where the MOH was politicized.


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## Gunz (May 8, 2018)

I've also seen the Predator footage.

So many things conspired to make this a clusterfuck...bad comm, bad intel, bad decisions, Greg Trebon, SEALs in love with their own hype and jonesing to get into the fight, _Nail 22_ says no enemy on Takur Ghar; Slabinski judges a man dead by a visual assessment of his lack of chest expansion? I know he was in contact, but that seems a pretty hasty way to count a guy out so you can unass the kill zone. 

Chapman is without blame. He fought desperately and alone and deserves every honor he gets.


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## Kraut783 (May 8, 2018)

I saw the predator footage at the CJSOTF TOC in 2002.  I also believe Chapman was still alive.


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## nitrohuck (May 8, 2018)

Is there any particular reason the footage has not been released? I've had discussions with some who have seen the footage and they too said the same thing you all are saying.


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## Teufel (May 8, 2018)

AWP said:


> The more I think about it, the more this seems like a tit for tat award process as a political compromise. This isn’t close to the first time where the MOH was politicized.



HQMC looked at one of my Marines for the MOH... until they found out he was a two time DUI recipient. He ended up with a Silver Star. Could be a coincidence.


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## 256 (May 8, 2018)

Teufel said:


> NSW has a history of throwing medals at tragedies.
> 
> Meanwhile Rafael Peralta still hasn’t been awarded the Medal of Honor for pulling a grenade to his chest and giving his life to save his squad mates.



Ed Darack mentioned the same about Red Wings, people didn't like him very much afterward. He talked about interviewing multiple people claiming to have watched UAV video of the event when he claimed there was zero UAV coverage. He also talked about the number of Taliban fighters actually involved, sounded like some numbers were fudged.


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## medicchick (May 8, 2018)

Teufel said:


> NSW has a history of throwing medals at tragedies.
> 
> Meanwhile Rafael Peralta still hasn’t been awarded the Medal of Honor for pulling a grenade to his chest and giving his life to save his squad mates.


I do think it's nice the tribute that is on the Arleigh Burke DDG that bears his name though.


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## DA SWO (May 8, 2018)

nitrohuck said:


> Is there any particular reason the footage has not been released? I've had discussions with some who have seen the footage and they too said the same thing you all are saying.


Couple of crappy YouTube videos are up.


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## DasBoot (May 9, 2018)

Teufel said:


> NSW has a history of throwing medals at tragedies.
> 
> Meanwhile Rafael Peralta still hasn’t been awarded the Medal of Honor for pulling a grenade to his chest and giving his life to save his squad mates.


And inflating awards... they hand out BSV’s like candy for stuff that should just be a BSM. Look at the UBL raid- everyone received a SS despite it being a pretty dull mission, all things considered. Chris Kyles SS citation is for his one deployment where he got all his kills. Pretty sure valor awards are supposed to be for individual acts and not a conglomeration of acts over a 6 month deployment. You would know better than I on that front sir so please correct me if I’m wrong.


amlove21 said:


> Chappy's family still makes cookies for deployed dudes. I've met Slab and heard his version of events first hand, out on the Island.
> 
> That being said- what the fuck man.


That’s a great family. I would be interested to hear your opinion on the Master Chief- I’m sure he’s a helluva gunfighter, but between the Intercept article (which states he is PNG from the unit, making this whole upgrade seem odd), he did some serious shady shit later in his career. I wouldn’t say this is warranted. Again, would like to hear the opinion of someone far more experienced than myself.


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## amlove21 (May 9, 2018)

DasBoot said:


> That’s a great family. I would be interested to hear your opinion on the Master Chief- I’m sure he’s a helluva gunfighter, but between the Intercept article (which states he is PNG from the unit, making this whole upgrade seem odd), he did some serious shady shit later in his career. I wouldn’t say this is warranted. Again, would like to hear the opinion of someone far more experienced than myself.


Well, just to make sure I am not sounding cooler than I am- he was a guest speaker at the Platoon Leaders Course and gave a 2 (ish) hour AAR of the Takur Ghar battle and some lessons learned. I spoke to him personally for about 10 minutes afterward, but it was your normal "guest speaker/audience goer" fare. 

I thought he was transparent, articulate, open and honest about the event and the events leading up to it. I thought he had some true remorse/regret for the way the entire thing went down and obviously there was a lot of emotion involved. I left his talk with a better understanding of the event in total from a different lens, and was happier to do so. I didn't know Chappy or Jason Cunningham personally, but I obviously know their stories (and their families) at this point in my career.

That being said, the strangest inputs happened after the speech. At lunch and later during the day, he was the topic of conversation and not in a good way. The younger dudes (guys on team with less than one "pump" or generally younger SEALs) had good things to say; to a man the older guys did not. I won't go into what was said, because it's not mine to say, but it ranged from the general "I dont like that guy" to some pretty ouotlandish and heinous accusations. I felt outright uncomfortable during one story because it was their dirty laundry and I probably shouldn't have been involved. But that's what 3 or 4 beers and the warm San Diego sunshine will do, I guess. 

As far as his status at the unit- no clue. That's Teams business, and I ain't a Team guy, ya dig?


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## DozerB (May 9, 2018)

medicchick said:


> I do think it's nice the tribute that is on the Arleigh Burke DDG that bears his name though.



The 31st MEU (ew, gross) also has a large memorial for Sgt Peralta on their HQ quarterdeck (in Peralta Hall).


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## Kraut783 (May 14, 2018)

This thread has me re-reading "Robert's Ridge"


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## Blizzard (May 19, 2018)

I've been sitting on this a bit to see if someone else here would bring it up but haven't seen it posted:
Operators Are Bitterly Infighting Over The Latest Medal Of Honor Announcement

In addition, Sean Naylor just published this:
The Navy SEALs Allegedly Left Behind a Man in Afghanistan. Did They Also Try to Block His Medal of Honor?

Finally followed by this:
Stop Infighting Around SEAL's Medal of Honor, Awards Expert Says

For those familiar with the Battle of Roberts Ridge, which is probably most here, there is likely to be strong opinions.   I'll just say this... I certainly don't have any particular insight to the incredible amount of politics that take place throughout the recommendation process but it's important that they remain separate from the men themselves.

I'll also add, the next actions to be addressed from that battle should be those of Cunningham, who is also worthy of an upgrade.  He was being reconsidered a few years ago but I don't know the current status of his case.


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## AWP (May 19, 2018)

I merged two threads and deleted a few posts.


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## SpitfireV (May 19, 2018)

Whaddaya want, some kind of medal?


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## Ooh-Rah (May 19, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> Whaddaya want, some kind of medal?



My, someone woke up pissy that they are not the one marrying the Prince this morning!


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## SpitfireV (May 19, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> My, someone woke up pissy that they are not the one marrying the Prince this morning!



I'd fuck him and I'm not even gay.


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## amlove21 (May 21, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> I'd fuck him and I'm not even gay.


I’m right here, man. I can read. Have a little respect.


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## SpitfireV (May 21, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> I’m right here, man. I can read. Have a little respect.



No gangbangs. You're on your own flyboy.


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## Ooh-Rah (May 22, 2018)

I’m not familiar with this website and almost didn’t post because of the article title, but I read the whole thing and they appear to have done their research.

With Medal of Honor, SEAL Team 6 Rewards a Culture of War Crimes


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## DasBoot (May 23, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I’m not familiar with this website and almost didn’t post because of the article title, but I read the whole thing and they appear to have done their research.
> 
> With Medal of Honor, SEAL Team 6 Rewards a Culture of War Crimes


The Intercept did the whole article on “canoeing” and their other questionable actions. They’re going HAM on Blue right now.


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## Kraut783 (May 24, 2018)

Trump awards Medal of Honor to former Navy SEAL for 'daring assault' in Afghanistan

Rest in Peace TSgt John A. Chapman, you are not forgotten.


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## BloodStripe (May 24, 2018)

Chappys time is coming in the near future.


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## Teufel (Jun 1, 2018)

And then there is this. Didn’t DOD say they couldn’t give Peralta the MOH because it could be controversial given the evidence?


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 1, 2018)

wow


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## Blizzard (Jun 1, 2018)

It's super awesome that we've now reached a point point where MoH receipents are openly attacked.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 1, 2018)

Blizzard said:


> It's super awesome that we've now reached a point point where MoH receipents are openly attacked.



Expand on that.

Who are you criticizing?

Him?  Newsweek?  The Navy?  The Forum?  Someone else?


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## Blizzard (Jun 1, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Expand on that.
> 
> Who are you criticizing?
> 
> Him?  Newsweek?  The Navy?  The Forum?  Someone else?


Newsweek et al


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## Teufel (Jun 1, 2018)

Blizzard said:


> It's super awesome that we've now reached a point point where MoH receipents are openly attacked.



I’m sure that’s how Chapman felt.


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## SpitfireV (Jun 1, 2018)

Blizzard said:


> It's super awesome that we've now reached a point point where MoH receipents are openly attacked.



Are they somehow off limits?


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## Gunz (Jun 1, 2018)

It's very unusual for an enlisted man or NCO to get the MOH without having been wounded. I would go so far as to say it's kind of unusual for an enlisted person or NCO to get a _Navy Cross_ without getting wounded. The recipient is usually also credited with saving some lives by his "courageous actions." He didn't save Chapman. He didn't even check his pulse

This was shoved through the system by NSW.


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## CDG (Jun 1, 2018)

Blizzard said:


> It's super awesome that we've now reached a point point where MoH receipents are openly attacked.



Lol.  Because it's so sacrosanct that they are automatically immune from criticism?  Come on man.  This is deserved, and I like that Newsweek did what they did.  NSW needs someone to hold them accountable, because they damn sure don't do it themselves.


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## BloodStripe (Jun 1, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> It's very unusual for an enlisted man or NCO to get the MOH without having been wounded. I would go so far as to say it's kind of unusual for an enlisted person or NCO to get a _Navy Cross_ without getting wounded. The recipient is usually also credited with saving some lives by his "courageous actions." He didn't save Chapman. He didn't even check his pulse
> 
> This was shoved through the system by NSW.



He crawled over what he thought was Chappy and checked him. He more than likely found Roberts but thought it was Chappy. Seeing he wasn't breathing they escaped off that mountain with severely wounded other command members.


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## 256 (Jun 1, 2018)

I think this is one sided evidence. Both services probably blocked each other’s MOH award. As I understand the story, one couldn’t get the MOH if both narratives were true..

Also, observations or opinions that come during stress can’t literally be taken for fact. People don’t interpret things correctly under stress. He probably thought he was dead. Do you think he was just like, “f that dude, I’m out.” I really doubt it. Ask someone to say the ABCs during a gun fight, ain’t going to happen.


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## CDG (Jun 1, 2018)

256 said:


> I think this is one sided evidence. Both services probably blocked each other’s MOH award. As I understand the story, one couldn’t get the MOH if both narratives were true..
> 
> Also, observations or opinions that come during stress can’t literally be taken for fact. People don’t interpret things correctly under stress. He probably thought he was dead. Do you think he was just like, “f that dude, I’m out.” I really doubt it. Ask someone to say the ABCs during a gun fight, ain’t going to happen.



How is it one sided evidence?  

As to the second paragraph, I think if it had been another SEAL he wouldn't have been so quick to make a judgment.  I don't see what your point is with the little ABCs anecdote.  I would like to think a senior NCO from a JSOC unit has some awareness in a gunfight.


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## 256 (Jun 1, 2018)

CDG said:


> How is it one sided evidence?
> 
> As to the second paragraph, I think if it had been another SEAL he wouldn't have been so quick to make a judgment.  I don't see what your point is with the little ABCs anecdote.  I would like to think a senior NCO from a JSOC unit has some awareness in a gunfight.



How many gun fights had he been in?


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## CDG (Jun 1, 2018)

256 said:


> How many gun fights had he been in?



I'm not really sure.  We stopped being besties awhile back.


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## Teufel (Jun 1, 2018)

256 said:


> I think this is one sided evidence. Both services probably blocked each other’s MOH award. As I understand the story, one couldn’t get the MOH if both narratives were true..
> 
> Also, observations or opinions that come during stress can’t literally be taken for fact. People don’t interpret things correctly under stress. He probably thought he was dead. Do you think he was just like, “f that dude, I’m out.” I really doubt it. Ask someone to say the ABCs during a gun fight, ain’t going to happen.


You mean like this? Dakota Meyer, a Marine who disregarded orders, is awarded Medal of Honor


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## 256 (Jun 1, 2018)

CDG said:


> I'm not really sure.  We stopped being besties awhile back.




I understand, I’m not for one side or the other. I said originally *BOTH* services blocked awards. I think we put members of JSOC on a very high level and forget sometimes that they are human. People make mistakes. Wasn’t @Teufel that said something about war being ugly and unpredictable. 

Say what you want about Robert O’Neill but in his book he talks about meeting Neil C. Roberts and thinking of what a monster he was and how much he looked up to him. But later talked about how all the SEALs were talked up but had never seen any combat, pre-9/11. 

I think both men are patriots that did what they thought was right, and both deserve the award.


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## Teufel (Jun 1, 2018)

People make mistakes. War is ugly and unpredictable. It doesn’t mean everyone deserves the highest medal in the land.


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## 256 (Jun 1, 2018)

Teufel said:


> People make mistakes. War is ugly and unpredictable. It doesn’t mean everyone deserves the highest medal in the land.



I agree, there’s probably a bunch of guys that deserve awards. But I don’t think that means both men don’t deserve it.


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## CDG (Jun 1, 2018)

256 said:


> I agree, there’s probably a bunch of guys that deserve awards. But I don’t think that means both men don’t deserve it.



What makes you think Slabinski deserves it?  If Chapman deserves it for being wounded, left behind, and fighting on, sometimes hand to hand, until he was ultimately killed, then how does Slabinski deserve it when he's the one that left him behind?  This is the MOH we're talking about.


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## 256 (Jun 1, 2018)

CDG said:


> What makes you think Slabinski deserves it?  If Chapman deserves it for being wounded, left behind, and fighting on, sometimes hand to hand, until he was ultimately killed, then how does Slabinski deserve it when he's the one that left him behind?  This is the MOH we're talking about.



I’m not going to say why I believe he deserved the award because my opinion was formulated by what I was informed by someone with close knowledge of the situation. But, there were a bunch of things wrong with that op.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 1, 2018)

256 said:


> I’m not going to say why I believe he deserved the award because my opinion was formulated by what I was informed by someone with close knowledge of the situation.



Then you probably should not have said anything at all. It’s wrong to put “I know more than the rest of you” out there and then say, “but it’s classified.”

Which is pretty much what you just did.


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## CDG (Jun 1, 2018)

256 said:


> I’m not going to say why I believe he deserved the award because my opinion was formulated by what I was informed by someone with close knowledge of the situation. But, there were a bunch of things wrong with that op.


LMAO. Ok man. Whatthefuckever.


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## 256 (Jun 1, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Then you probably should not have said anything at all. It’s wrong to put “I know more than the rest of you” out there and then say, “but it’s classified.”
> 
> Which is pretty much what you just did.



No, I’m just not going to air the information I was told because it’s not mine to share. It’s their opinion and they may look at these boards.


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## AWP (Jun 1, 2018)

256 said:


> No, I’m just not going to air the information I was told because it’s not mine to share. It’s their opinion and they may look at these boards.



Look, your info may be 100% correct, but we don't like to traffic in "I know, but can't say why, so trust me" information. 



CDG said:


> LMAO. Ok man. Whatthefuckever.



C'mon, man. You can be dismissive without this.

---

Break, break: I don't like locking threads, but we need to tighten our shot groups on this one.


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## 256 (Jun 1, 2018)

AWP said:


> Look, your info may be 100% correct, but we don't like to traffic in "I know, but can't say why, so trust me" information.
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Rgr, I get that as well. I explained some of my information to @CDG in a PM. I am hoping that dissolves this as an issue.


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## DA SWO (Jun 2, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> He crawled over what he thought was Chappy and checked him. He more than likely found Roberts but thought it was Chappy. Seeing he wasn't breathing they escaped off that mountain with severely wounded other command members.


This is what I think happened.^
How many wounded did the Master Chief slide down that mountain?
I think the Master Chief deserved his award, and I also think Chapman deserves his.
Some of my NCO's have seen the raw pred footage, and they think he was alive and killing until the end; and I have no reason not to believe them.
Anaconda was fucked up from the start, and this is just another small shit show in a large shit show.


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## AWP (Jun 2, 2018)

Honestly, I think Slab crawled over Roberts and thought he was Chappy.

The problem is the Pred footage supports one narrative over the other....and one narrative is based upon the latter not existing.

Shit show.


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## 256 (Jun 3, 2018)

AWP said:


> Shit show.



Agreed, shit show. The video part is tough because you’re seeing what happened. But seeing what happened vs understanding every detail is completely different. It’s similar to Police footage. I’ve had people complain about me, watch the video with my boss and point to the video and say, “that’s not what happened.” It’s all perspective and how we run the footage of what we’re seeing vs our own set of values and experiences. Another good example would be eye-witness accounts. So many times eye-witness accounts are total shit.


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## Kraut783 (Jun 3, 2018)

These points, brought up earlier, is what I have a problem with...after all this is the MOH

-  ST6 (Slabinski) got to the injured Chapman and under fire, made the determination that Chapman was dead, and pulled back; leaving Chapman.
-  After being left, Chapman got back into the fight and was eventually killed.
-  SEAL's refuse to believe Chapman was not dead when they left him


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## 256 (Jun 3, 2018)

An underestimation of the enemy and too much confidence in the people in play.


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## BloodStripe (Jun 3, 2018)

They had no idea that Chechens had such a well thought out of bunker system there. I don't think it was underestimation but more so a they walked into a kill zone with good fields of fire from the enemy.


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## Kraut783 (Jun 3, 2018)

Rushed the mission...and failed to get good eyes on the point they were going to occupy, the DShK wasn't hidden...just overlooked on the rushed evaluation of the position.

But, hindsight is always 20/20 and the mission/insertion is a separate issue....


----------



## Gunz (Jun 3, 2018)

256 said:


> ...Also, observations or opinions that come during stress can’t literally be taken for fact. _*People don’t interpret things correctly under stress. He probably thought he was dead. Do you think he was just like, “f that dude, I’m out.” I really doubt it. Ask someone to say the ABCs during a gun fight, ain’t going to happen*_.



No...we couldn't "say the ABCs"... but amazingly we were able to call up fire missions, medevacs, close air, perform first aid, conduct maneuver under fire and _never leave our dead or wounded_ to the enemy while executing a tactical withdrawal during heated contacts with superior forces. And we weren't Navy SEALs. Takur Ghar might've been a fucking shit show but it was't Custer's Last Stand. Superbly trained people were on that mountain, people who's business it is to be able to say their ABCs and much more during a gunfight.


----------



## 256 (Jun 3, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> No..._we_ couldn't "say the ABCs"... but amazingly _we_ were able to call up fire missions, medevacs, close air, perform first aid, conduct maneuver under fire and _never leave our dead or wounded_ to the enemy while executing a tactical withdrawal during heated contacts with superior forces. And we weren't Navy SEALs. Takur Ghar might've been a fucking shit show but it was't Custer's Last Stand. Superbly trained people were on that mountain, people who's business it is to be able to say their ABCs and much more during a gunfight.



Brother, I Understand completely. But people have also called *incorrect *fire missions, medevaces, close air support. It’s a mistake, they happen all the time. A soldier in my company was killed in a incorrect CAS mission, CPL Clouse (2-12 INF, 4th BDE). He was with SOF soldiers. It’s nothing against them, it was a mistake. It just is. Fog of war. Now that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be investigated and figured out, but it was a mistake.


----------



## Teufel (Jun 3, 2018)

256 said:


> Brother, I Understand completely. But people have also called *incorrect *fire missions, medevaces, close air support. It’s a mistake, they happen all the time. A soldier in my company was killed in a incorrect CAS mission, CPL Clouse (2-12 INF, 4th BDE). He was with SOF soldiers. It’s nothing against them, it was a mistake. It just is. Fog of war. Now that doesn’t mean that it shouldn’t be investigated and figured out, but it was a mistake.


Did they give him the MOH?


----------



## 256 (Jun 3, 2018)

No, he wasn’t. Seems some people believe Slab deserved it and some don’t. There’s an arguement for the bigger mistake the bigger the award, but I believe they both did exceptional things. I also believe NSW members have been their own worse enemy. Maybe Officers in NSW are afraid of the men they command. I don’t agree that because some people didn’t get awards others shouldn’t either. And it shouldn’t be a surprise that maybe the people that award the MOH have a hard on for NSW, just like everyone else. I think I added that it was my opinion.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 3, 2018)

256 said:


> An underestimation of the enemy and too much confidence in the people in play.



Just a note on your signature line:




> If one hopes to be considered a leader in deed more than in just a word, he or she had better learn to deliberately and consciously shun the spotlight and embrace the humility of selfless service.
> - Major Thomas Greer 1st SFOD



MAJ Greer was PNG'd from the SOF community, and rightly so, after seeking, embracing, and profiting from "the spotlight."  I therefore find this quote from him deeply ironic.


----------



## Teufel (Jun 4, 2018)

256 said:


> No, he wasn’t. Seems some people believe Slab deserved it and some don’t. There’s an arguement for the bigger mistake the bigger the award, but I believe they both did exceptional things. I also believe NSW members have been their own worse enemy. Maybe Officers in NSW are afraid of the men they command. I don’t agree that because some people didn’t get awards others shouldn’t either. And it shouldn’t be a surprise that maybe the people that award the MOH have a hard on for NSW, just like everyone else. I think I added that it was my opinion.



This is the problem. Medals for valor are supposed to be the same across the Department of Defense but each of the services have different criteria for awarding them. Special Operations Forces tend to have an easier time getting awards because they have greater advocacy, visibility, and don’t have to submit awards through a conventional forces awards chain. NSW hands out awards like the Boy Scouts hands out merit badges. Everyone is frustrated because the DOD declined to upgrade guys like SgtMaj Kasal, Brian Chontosh, Brady Gustafson, and several Marines who literally jumped on grenades to save their brothers, and instead decided to push for this controversial upgrade. That’s the problem. Rafael Peralta died clutching a grenade to his chest. Where is his Medal of Honor?


----------



## Gunz (Jun 4, 2018)

BITD, all along the corridor of 6th Marine Regimental Headquarters were framed MOH citations, one after another. You could spend an afternoon just drifting down the hall reading them all. I'd say at least 70% were posthumous. A good portion were enlisted men and junior NCOs who'd thrown themselves on grenades, or NCO's & O's who'd been wounded four or five times defending or assaulting a position or saving the lives of their brother Marines. This tells something of the criteria.


----------



## Devildoc (Jun 4, 2018)

@Teufel , I believe elsewhere there's been discussion about how the Marines in general are loathe to hand out awards like candy (my words), and many of us have seen deserving Marines and Sailors 'deserve' _much_ better than they got.  Double standards among the service?  Hell yeah.  "NSW hands out awards like the Boy Scouts hands out merit badges".  Definitely, and it can be deflating and morale-busting.


----------



## 256 (Jun 4, 2018)

Teufel said:


> This is the problem. Medals for valor are supposed to be the same across the Department of Defense but each of the services have different criteria for awarding them. Special Operations Forces tend to have an easier time getting awards because they have greater advocacy, visibility, and don’t have to submit awards through a conventional forces awards chain. NSW hands out awards like the Boy Scouts hands out merit badges. Everyone is frustrated because the DOD declined to upgrade guys like SgtMaj Kasal, Brian Chontosh, Brady Gustafson, and several Marines who literally jumped on grenades to save their brothers, and instead decided to push for this controversial upgrade. That’s the problem. Rafael Peralta died clutching a grenade to his chest. Where is his Medal of Honor?



Everyone is afraid of NSW or they want to be able to be part of a real Navy SEAL conversation so they can tell all their friends. I think because Marines are held in such high regard or to such a high standard when remarkable Marines make remarkable sacrifices the people involved say, “yep, that’s what Marines are suppose to do.” You might think it’s f-ed up, but feel it’s a HUGE testament to the men, leadership and tradition of the Marine Corps.

Personally I can’t stand what the Navy SEAL community has become. But I try to remind myself that there are great men in that community as well.


----------



## Devildoc (Jun 4, 2018)

256 said:


> Everyone is afraid of NSW or they want to be able to be part of a real Navy SEAL conversation so they can tell all their friends. I think because Marines are held in such high regard or to such a high standard when remarkable Marines make remarkable sacrifices the people involved say, “yep, that’s what Marines are suppose to do.” You might think it’s f-ed up, but feel it’s a HUGE testament to the men, leadership and tradition of the Marine Corps.
> 
> Personally I can’t stand what the Navy SEAL community has become. But I try to remind myself that there are great men in that community as well.



@256 , there have been discussions for decades about how the Marine leadership have been traditionally stingy awarding medals for valor, believing it's just Marines doing what Marines are supposed to do.  It is very (and often unfortunately) common to downgrade awards.

RE: the SEAL community, I agree.  I don't like to paint with a broad brush, the community of thousands of excellent Sailors has been sullied by the mouths and actions of a relative few.


----------



## DasBoot (Jun 4, 2018)

The NX seems appropriate for what he did, there wasn’t a need for the upgrade. Especially in light of the information that’s come up since.  They need to hurry up and give TSgt. Chapman his rightful due. Even if it’s 16 years too late.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 4, 2018)

I remember reading an article a few years ago about Tsgt Chapman's autopsy and recovered equipment. If I remember correctly he had expended all of his ammunition and had multiple gunshot and fragmentation wounds, and bruises consistant with hand to hand combat. 

Saving face or not, NSW is pretty chicken shit for not owning up to this.


----------



## Teufel (Jun 4, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> @256 , there have been discussions for decades about how the Marine leadership have been traditionally stingy awarding medals for valor, believing it's just Marines doing what Marines are supposed to do.  It is very (and often unfortunately) common to downgrade awards.
> 
> RE: the SEAL community, I agree.  I don't like to paint with a broad brush, the community of thousands of excellent Sailors has been sullied by the mouths and actions of a relative few.


The only award the Marine Corps gives out freely is the Purple Heart. Even that can be spotty thanks to bad admin. I’m still missing one or two that I rate.


----------



## Teufel (Jun 4, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> @Teufel , I believe elsewhere there's been discussion about how the Marines in general are loathe to hand out awards like candy (my words), and many of us have seen deserving Marines and Sailors 'deserve' _much_ better than they got.  Double standards among the service?  Hell yeah.  "NSW hands out awards like the Boy Scouts hands out merit badges".  Definitely, and it can be deflating and morale-busting.


Honestly I believe the Marine Corps was too stringent on valor awards, particularly for the junior enlisted Marines who deserved them most. My service was also not immune from handing out too many meritorious Bronze Stars to senior SNCOs and officers. It seems that every battalion commander and Sgt Maj out there have Bronze Stars. Very few of them have valor devices on them.


----------



## 256 (Jun 4, 2018)

Teufel said:


> Honestly I believe the Marine Corps was too stringent on valor awards, particularly for the junior enlisted Marines who deserved them most. My service was also not immune from handing out too many meritorious Bronze Stars to senior SNCOs and officers. It seems that every battalion commander and Sgt Maj out there have Bronze Stars. Very few of them have valor devices on them.




Battalion S1 NCOIC gets a bronze star for their deployment, JrNCOs in rifle companies, here’s your ARCOM. Not saying his job isn’t important but he went to sleep on time, went to chow on time and watched One Tree Hill on time every night. How does that compute?


----------



## Teufel (Jun 4, 2018)

256 said:


> Battalion S1 NCOIC gets a bronze star for their deployment, JrNCOs in rifle companies, here’s your ARCOM. Not saying his job isn’t important but he went to sleep on time, went to chow on time and watched One Tree Hill on time every night. How does that compute?



We were never that bad! More like battalion CO, XO, and SgtMaj. Occasionally company comanders and first sergeants. I received an achievement medal for one of my combat deployments as a platoon commander and received a commendation for my combat deployment as a company commander.


----------



## Devildoc (Jun 4, 2018)

Teufel said:


> The only award the Marine Corps gives out freely is the Purple Heart. Even that can be spotty thanks to bad admin. I’m still missing one or two that I rate.



My father, a retired Marine, was written up for a silver star in Vietnam, ended up with a Navy Commendation with a "V." I was written up for a Navy comm, downgraded to a NAM. Now those, I have a bunch of those. They are worth about the paper they're written on.

Honestly the only two things that I ever cared about was the FMF ribbon I earned, and the subsequent FMF Warfare device I earned. 

The award system has turned into a joke, and I think most everyone knows that.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jun 4, 2018)

Because of how NAM's are awaded to Marine grunts, I will say it's worth more than the weight of paper they are written on, especially when awarded to a NCO and non-rate.


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## DA SWO (Jun 4, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> My father, a retired Marine, was written up for a silver star in Vietnam, ended up with a Navy Commendation with a "V." I was written up for a Navy comm, downgraded to a NAM. Now those, I have a bunch of those. They are worth about the paper they're written on.
> 
> Honestly the only two things that I ever cared about was the FMF ribbon I earned, and the subsequent FMF Warfare device I earned.
> 
> The award system has turned into a joke, and I think most everyone knows that.


I have a friend who was attached to a MARSOC unit, his SS downgraded to an ARCOM.


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## Kraut783 (Jun 4, 2018)

Dang...not even an ARCOM with V? crazy....


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## Teufel (Jun 4, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> I have a friend who was attached to a MARSOC unit, his SS downgraded to an ARCOM.


He would probably get an MOH with a star on it if he was NSW.


----------



## Devildoc (Jun 4, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Because of how NAM's are awaded to Marine grunts, I will say it's worth more than the weight of paper they are written on, especially when awarded to a NCO and non-rate.



I was in when they changed the approval level to the local unit.  Beforehand, few people got them.  After the change, everyone got them.  My last reserve unit as a corpsman, I bet 25-30% of the unit had a NAM.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jun 4, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> I was in when they changed the approval level to the local unit.  Beforehand, few people got them.  After the change, everyone got them.  My last reserve unit as a corpsman, I bet 25-30% of the unit had a NAM.



Are we talking 03's or support? Support? Yes, everyone and their mom has one. Grunt? I don't think that they do.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 4, 2018)

I got very sick in Iraq (91’) and after getting out of the hospital (a tip
Of the cap to the docs at Incirlik Air Base) it was found that I could type. I was put in front of a typewriter (yes a type writer) and given a STACK of awards to type up; to include my own NAM (which I wrote by the way).  Yes, I wrote my own NAM.


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## Devildoc (Jun 5, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Are we talking 03's or support? Support? Yes, everyone and their mom has one. Grunt? I don't think that they do.



My last unit was FSSG, but the one before that was a grunt unit and it was the same way. I think it all came down to when the change was pushed to the local level.


----------



## 256 (Jun 5, 2018)

Teufel said:


> We were never that bad! More like battalion CO, XO, and SgtMaj. Occasionally company comanders and first sergeants. I received an achievement medal for one of my combat deployments as a platoon commander and received a commendation for my combat deployment as a company commander.



In my experience, every Army Infantry platoon leader got a bronze star for a combat deployment.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 5, 2018)

Every E7 and up got a "deployment" BSM. The only dudes I personally saw get a BSM that were E6 and below, were KIA or did some pretty extraordinary heroic stuff. Good buddy of mine pulled 7 dudes out of a burning bradley while under fire and received burns from it. He got a BSM with V. If he wouldn't have been a SPC,  I believe he would have got a much, much higher award...

But what ever, at the end of the day, anybody from our generation with any significant awards, always gets the follow on questions of who did you deploy with and what was your rank. Army's award system is totally fucked IMHO.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 5, 2018)

It seems that every couple of years, the site gets worked up about BSMs.  A BSM sans "V" is simply a wartime MSM.  In fact, if you're downrange I don't even think you can get an MSM (that might have been a unit-level policy, though).  An MSM is a high bar for an achievement award.  It seems unlikely to me that soldiers without significant levels of both responsibility and achievement would receive such an award.

As noted, the views on BSMs vary between the sevices.  My Marine XO on my last deployment told me to not even bother writing him up for a BSM because it wouldn't make it through the Marine side of the joint house.

http://snagfilms-a.akamaihd.net/a7/d3/aadc667d406180218895d103e505/milper-message-17-095.pdf


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## DA SWO (Jun 5, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> It seems that every couple of years, the site gets worked up about BSMs.  A BSM sans "V" is simply a wartime MSM.  In fact, if you're downrange I don't even think you can get an MSM (that might have been a unit-level policy, though).  An MSM is a high bar for an achievement award.  It seems unlikely to me that soldiers without significant levels of both responsibility and achievement would receive such an award.
> 
> As noted, the views on BSMs vary between the sevices.  My Marine XO on my last deployment told me to not even bother writing him up for a BSM because it wouldn't make it through the Marine side of the joint house.
> 
> http://snagfilms-a.akamaihd.net/a7/d3/aadc667d406180218895d103e505/milper-message-17-095.pdf


IIRC the policy changed so guys/gals outside the "danger Zone" but still in the combat zone (like an airbase in the UAE) can get MSM's and BSM's for those locations are an E-9/W-5/O-6+ award.


----------



## Teufel (Jun 5, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> It seems that every couple of years, the site gets worked up about BSMs.  A BSM sans "V" is simply a wartime MSM.  In fact, if you're downrange I don't even think you can get an MSM (that might have been a unit-level policy, though).  An MSM is a high bar for an achievement award.  It seems unlikely to me that soldiers without significant levels of both responsibility and achievement would receive such an award.
> 
> As noted, the views on BSMs vary between the sevices.  My Marine XO on my last deployment told me to not even bother writing him up for a BSM because it wouldn't make it through the Marine side of the joint house.
> 
> http://snagfilms-a.akamaihd.net/a7/d3/aadc667d406180218895d103e505/milper-message-17-095.pdf


The Marine Corps actually tightened the award policy on Bronze Stars several years ago. Nominees must ‘be exposed to the combat environment’ to qualify, i.e. leave the wire. Otherwise you get an MSM. The Marine Corps will also review all joint awards per this policy and often adjust the award level.


----------



## Cookie_ (Jun 11, 2018)

Teufel said:


> This is the problem. Medals for valor are supposed to be the same across the Department of Defense but each of the services have different criteria for awarding them. Special Operations Forces tend to have an easier time getting awards because they have greater advocacy, visibility, and don’t have to submit awards through a conventional forces awards chain. NSW hands out awards like the Boy Scouts hands out merit badges. Everyone is frustrated because the DOD declined to upgrade guys like SgtMaj Kasal, Brian Chontosh, Brady Gustafson, and several Marines who literally jumped on grenades to save their brothers, and instead decided to push for this controversial upgrade. That’s the problem. Rafael Peralta died clutching a grenade to his chest. Where is his Medal of Honor?



To add on with Peralta; maybe Alwyn Cashe, who was mortally wounded rescuing his troops from a burning Bradley, while he was on fire, will finally get his SS upgraded as well. Hopefully this review the Pentagon (is doing? has finished?) will create better guidelines for all services on the process.

- For anyone who wants the full story on SFC Cashe, It’s 2018 And SFC Alwyn Cashe Still Hasn’t Been Awarded The Medal Of Honor. Why?


----------



## Teufel (Jun 11, 2018)

Cookie_101st said:


> To add on with Peralta; maybe Alwyn Cashe, who was mortally wounded rescuing his troops from a burning Bradley, while he was on fire, will finally get his SS upgraded as well. Hopefully this review the Pentagon (is doing? has finished?) will create better guidelines for all services on the process.
> 
> - For anyone who wants the full story on SFC Cashe, It’s 2018 And SFC Alwyn Cashe Still Hasn’t Been Awarded The Medal Of Honor. Why?


I actually wanted to mention him but couldn’t remember his name.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jun 11, 2018)

My old unit is returning from Spartan Shield, the current S1 or seems to be jamming that thing full of pictures.  Mostly CoCs and promotions.  They handed out like 100 ARCOMs the other day I shit you not.


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 11, 2018)

Cookie_101st said:


> To add on with Peralta; maybe Alwyn Cashe, who was mortally wounded rescuing his troops from a burning Bradley, while he was on fire, will finally get his SS upgraded as well. Hopefully this review the Pentagon (is doing? has finished?) will create better guidelines for all services on the process.
> 
> - For anyone who wants the full story on SFC Cashe, It’s 2018 And SFC Alwyn Cashe Still Hasn’t Been Awarded The Medal Of Honor. Why?


BSM's have been watered down so much that Management can not recognize real valor.


----------



## NikNifSik (Jun 26, 2018)

Blizzard said:


> It's super awesome that we've now reached a point point where MoH receipents are openly attacked.


I personally respect the fact that Newsweek was willing to question the veracity of the SEALs "official" story.  From what I know of the events, it seems a great dishonor has been done to Chapman.  Any news outlet questioning the SEALs is at risk with an American populace that feels they are without sin. Newsweek was willing to do it, and in my opinion did it objectively. 

We have allowed and encouraged a culture that throws medals at failed missions.  A positive spin is being put on events that should be under the microscope for lesson learned.


----------



## AWP (Jun 26, 2018)

Blizzard said:


> It's super awesome that we've now reached a point point where MoH receipents are openly attacked.



MoH recipients eat their young. I've seen several interviews where guys openly called out others with the medal for their post-award antics... and a few make the statement "how did he 'earn' that." I've seen some where the culture is hammered by them as well. The award is politicized within the military and has been for years. Is some of this is either coming to light or maybe the occurrences have increased? I don't know.

We put these men on a pedestal for their deeds, but they are still men and subject to all of man's weaknesses.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 26, 2018)

AWP said:


> We put these men on a pedestal for their deeds, but they are still men and subject to all of man's weaknesses.


See also:  Ira Hayes


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 28, 2018)

I get why Chapman got The Medal.  I'm still not sure why the guy who left him behind got one.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jul 28, 2018)

Military Politics...


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 28, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> I get why Chapman got The Medal.  I'm still not sure why the guy who left him behind got one.



Have you seen the entirety of the drone footage?


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 28, 2018)

I think so.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 28, 2018)

Yes.


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## BloodStripe (Jul 28, 2018)

There is the offical drone footage. Im sure it speaks to one narrative over the other.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 28, 2018)

Centermass said:


> During this bold attack, he was struck and temporarily incapacitated by enemy fire.
> 
> Despite his wounds, Chapman regained his faculties and continued to fight relentlessly, sustaining a violent engagement with multiple enemy fighters before paying the ultimate sacrifice.



And that statement right there is why I will forever question the MOH for the SEAL.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 29, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> And that statement right there is why I will forever question the MOH for the SEAL.


Meaning- ‘fighting from enemy fortified position to enemy fortified position alone, always outnumbered and often out gunned, Chappy continued his fight to get back to his team sometimes hand to hand. Only at the very end of his ammunition was he wounded from a blind location and finally overwhelmed.’

Those are my words from what I’ve seen on the footage I have. 

Chappy is a fucking warrior. Glad he got the recognition he deserved, regardless of politics.


----------



## AWP (Aug 8, 2018)

And on that note, this thread is done with generic discipline problems in today's military. If anyone would like to discuss it further, start a new thread...if we don't already have one out there.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 8, 2018)

AWP said:


> And on that note, this thread is done with generic discipline problems in today's military. If anyone would like to discuss it further, start a new thread...if we don't already have one out there.



Sorry about that @AWP .  I picked up on that earlier and should have halted it then.  This is actually a pretty good thread with some interesting and professional debate so I set it right.

The dozen or so posts that got us off track have been moved to this thread:  
Low Recruit Discipline Prompts Army to Redesign Basic Training

The last few posts were debating lack of discipline in the Military.  Good as anywhere I spose.


----------



## AWP (Aug 9, 2018)

Referencing the video from this thread:
Tech. Sergeant John Chapman To Be Awarded The Medal Of Honor

Can someone help me understand why Chappie ran directly towards the bunkers but the SEALS didn't? He basically went straight at them from the get go while the SEALS ran in a different direction. 

Watching the RPG strike again and Brad Crose and the other Rangers dying as they came off the ramp...the last few moments are hard to watch.


----------



## Cookie_ (Aug 10, 2018)

AWP said:


> Watching the RPG strike again and Brad Crose and the other Rangers dying as they came off the ramp...the last few moments are hard to watch.



The video truly highlights just how heartbreaking the situation was. 
Chapman was killed less than 3 minutes before the QRF arrived, but if he hadn't exposed himself the entire QRF may have been wiped out. True heroism right there.


----------



## amlove21 (Aug 14, 2018)

AWP said:


> ...
> 
> Can someone help me understand why Chappie ran directly towards the bunkers but the SEALS didn't? He basically went straight at them from the get go while the SEALS ran in a different direction.
> 
> ...


Because warriors do warrior shit. I think he just oriented much faster, and he picked ‘near ambush- push through’ instead of ‘break contact’.

Unthinkable choices on that mountain. I just like to think that Chap embraced violence and made the choice to go down swinging before other people did.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 14, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Because warriors do warrior shit. I think he just oriented much faster, and he picked *‘near ambush- push through’ instead of ‘break contact’.*
> 
> Unthinkable choices on that mountain. I just like to think that Chap embraced violence and made the choice to go down swinging before other people did.



I wouldn't be surprised if this is what he intended. If they're close, the quickest way to get them to stop shooting at you is to kill them, assault directly through the near ambush. It may also be that the near bunker, if he could clear it, would afford him better cover and allow him to continue to fight. Whatever the case, he said fuck this and went at it full badass. He was some man, all right.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 14, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Whatever the case, he said fuck this and went at it full badass. He was some man, all right.



Regardless of what was going through his head--hell, he may have been operating on muscle memory and innate operant conditioning more than 'thinking'--he made a move that saved lives.  He lived up to his motto and core values, and was utterly full badass.


----------



## DasBoot (Aug 14, 2018)

AWP said:


> Referencing the video from this thread:
> Tech. Sergeant John Chapman To Be Awarded The Medal Of Honor
> 
> Can someone help me understand why Chappie ran directly towards the bunkers but the SEALS didn't? He basically went straight at them from the get go while the SEALS ran in a different direction.
> ...


A near ambush like that, there’s no other option other than “diddle diddle straight up the middle.” Numerous bunkers and no shoulder fired weapons to suppress them doesn’t leave you many options save for getting within grenade range, and that’s exactly what he did.


----------



## Poccington (Aug 22, 2018)

After 16 Years, Air Force Tech Sgt. John Chapman Finally Receives The Medal Of Honor

Today, Tech. Sgt John Chapman became a MOH recipient.


----------



## Kraut783 (Aug 22, 2018)

Didn't see this in the thread, pretty interesting video.

Air Force Tech. Sgt. John A. Chapman, Medal of Honor (Graphical Video)

And looks like his story is being made into a movie.

Medal of Honor Nominee John Chapman Is Getting a Film About His Life

Military Hero John Chapman’s Incredible Story To Come To Big Screen, Courtesy Of Thruline Entertainment


----------



## AWP (Aug 22, 2018)

@Kraut783 I merged your post with this thread.


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## BloodStripe (Nov 30, 2018)

And they saw he was dead. So they moved.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 1, 2018)

BloodStripe said:


> And they saw he was dead. So they moved.



Chapman continued to fight by himself, while the SEALs ran down the side of the mountain. Then they blocked his MOH for goddamn ever,  and awarded the team lead a MOH for straight botching a mission and leaving a dude in the fight,  alone,  on top of a mountain. I wonder if he was alive today,  what he would have to say about the US Navy SEAL community?


----------



## GrimSpyder (Dec 10, 2018)

Looking at things after the fact, lets you see things in a different light. 
Leaving him behind, Sucks major ass, and (I'm assuming) everyone one of those guys, is haunted by that day. Even though the decision they made, was probably made as being the right one at the time, with everything that was happening.
But' blocking or impeding Chapman's MOH. Is absolutely BS! to save face is even worse!!
Shit happens in when the shit hits the fan. Bad decisions are sometimes made, and they have to dealt with.
I can only base my opinion form the little info i came across.
But based on that. 
It is an injustice to deny Champman the MOH.
And the SEAL community isn't doing its self any favors trying to save face, rather than accepting they days events.


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## DA SWO (Dec 10, 2018)

GrimSpyder said:


> Looking at things after the fact, lets you see things in a different light.
> Leaving him behind, Sucks major ass, and (I'm assuming) everyone one of those guys, is haunted by that day. Even though the decision they made, was probably made as being the right one at the time, with everything that was happening.
> But' blocking or impeding Chapman's MOH. Is absolutely BS! to save face is even worse!!
> Shit happens in when the shit hits the fan. Bad decisions are sometimes made, and they have to dealt with.
> ...



FIFY


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## BloodStripe (Dec 10, 2018)

Is there actually any evidence other than an unmanned defense official in one article that supports the theory that they tried blocking it?


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## DA SWO (Dec 10, 2018)

BloodStripe said:


> Is there actually any evidence other than an unmanned defense official in one article that supports the theory that they tried blocking it?


Folks in FL think the Navy tried to block it, that works for me.


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## BloodStripe (Dec 10, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> Folks in FL think the Navy tried to block it, that works for me.



So you've seen specific emails or other evidence of this?


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## DA SWO (Dec 10, 2018)

BloodStripe said:


> So you've seen specific emails or other evidence of this?


Talked with a few folks last weekend.  Lots of hate towards the Navy (and not individuals).
Was eye opening to say the least.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 10, 2018)

BloodStripe said:


> So you've seen specific emails or other evidence of this?



The likelihood of an email chain saying "hey lets block Chapmans MOH" is slim to none (and I doubt that was ever discussed in that manner). NSW disagreeing with the official narrative of events and disputing specifics of the UAV feed video with the USAF is what supposedly held up Chapman's MOH (from what I've read).  This was done so NSW could save face,  as their official narrative was that Chapman was dead,  and the TL cut losses and got the rest of his team out.  The now well known reality, is that Chapman was left alive,  fighting while the rest of the team bailed. Only the Team,  Slabinski and Chapman, know what truly happened.  What is known,  is that the battle didn't go down as Slabinski reported it,  Chapman was left alone in the fight and continued to fight for an hour on his own,  including hand to hand,  while rest of the team bailed down the mountain. What is known is that AFSOF and NSW disagreed over the official narrative, this holding up Chapman's MOH for almost 16 years and that Slabinski received the MOH on a mission where one of his men fell out of a helicopter and was left,  an attempt to recover his man,  lead to Chapman being left on a mountain alive,  in a fight,  while the rest of the team bailed. 

Now you could argue that his attempt to reinsert his team to recover Roberts was heroic.  I'll go with that, I think it was, but the leaving of another man is a bit odd,  considering that community claims they never leave a man behind. That said, I get it,  it was a shit show,  he was under extreme stress,  team is getting chewed up and he claims he checked Chapman's body and assessed he was dead. But they left a man who was alive and in the fight behind, not a dead guy,  a live teammate... And he got the MOH for it. I don't know what was going on in Slabinski mind,  what he thought,  or why he made his decisions. I won't judge him on that. I think his community should have came clean after the fog of war had been lifted and they saw what actually happened. Simply put,  they fucked up,  they argued it with the USAF to save face,  they held up Chapamns MOH,  and than put Slabinski in for a MOH, knowing he left a man behind, alive, alone and in the fight. 

My$.02


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