# Why Modern Soldiers are More Susceptible to Suicide



## Marauder06 (Mar 21, 2013)

http://usnews.nbcnews.com/_news/201...soldiers-are-more-susceptible-to-suicide?lite



> “This group is the self-esteem generation. My worry is they have not dealt with enough challenges, enough disappointments in life for many of them to build the kind of resilience that is foundational when you go to war,” added Rudd. “This has led to many of us to having thin skin. That doesn’t bode well when you go to war.”


 
Thoughts?


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## LibraryLady (Mar 21, 2013)

Your article states a rate of 9 in 100k active-duty soldiers committed suicide in 2001 increasing to 23 in 100k in 2011. By comparison, the overall national average in 2001 was 10.7 in 100k and in 2010 it only rose to 12.4 in 100k. Though if you were to drill it down even further to looking at age groups, the stats would be skewed even further since the general population already includes the military suicides and the vast majority of gen pop suicides occur in the 45+ age range.

The American Foundation for Suicide Prevention, AFSP has an interesting brief on military suicide with a rather illuminating stat:


> Three of five veterans enrolled in VA care who died by suicide were patients with a known mental health condition.


 
That means 40% of veterans under VA care who committed suicide did NOT have a *known* mental health condition. And yet I find this on their page about the general public:


> 90% of people who die by suicide have a diagnosable and treatable psychiatric disorder at the time of their death.


 
In reference to the quote you highlighted, I don't give a damn about this group being a "self-esteem" generation. They are what they are, a different generation than the previous ones, with a different war than WWII, Korea or Vietnam; a different civilian society; and a different attitude on what put them in the war, ie mostly draft versus ALL volunteer.

The Pentagon needs to get their ass in gear and start treating these people, period. The brief I linked above does show there is movement in the rates towards the positive, but it is slow and it is not across the board consistent with different groups.

LL


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## fox1371 (Mar 21, 2013)

While I agree with LL that the Government needs to get off their ass and do something about this, I think that it's necessary that we identify the reasons that we're encountering such an increased amount of suicides. 

I have to say that I agree with the article though.  I don't know if I'd label is as low self-esteem or not, but I think there are some good points that have been made.  I've just come to call it the "degradation of the modern man."  I see it mainly with civilian men under the age of 30.  It seems that men no longer have that drive to work for something.  Many don't feel the need to take care of their girlfriend/wife/family.  They're perfectly fine working some dead end job without pushing themselves further in life.  They all need somebody to push them towards the next step.  I think people are still dealing with the same emotional challenges throughout life, I just don't think that they've been taught to deal with those issues in a proper manner.  Too many people have been coddled growing up.  I think the answer is somewhere in there. 

Another addition is that I think religion may have something to do with it.  Nowadays Christian/Jewish etc morals aren't as prominent as they have been in the past.  I'm not particularly a religious individual, so I'm not trying to be a Bible thumper here.  I'm sure we all know where suicide stands with religion, so I won't go into a large rant on that.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 21, 2013)

Suicide is a personal choice, the last one someone makes. Is it an epidemic? No, do we need to attend mandatory 3 hour briefs about it? No, most of the time those briefs just let guys know what not to do/ how to act before pulling the trigger so to say. I also think that this isn't on the VA or the military, there are just too many assets available to put it on them. The Army bends over backwards to find and help soldiers who are having issues.


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## Worldweaver (Mar 21, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> most of the time those briefs just let guys know what not to do/ how to act before pulling the trigger so to say. I also think that this isn't on the VA or the military, there are just too many assets available to put it on them. The Army bends over backwards to find and help soldiers who are having issues.


 
I don't agree, I think the briefs are to allow those around to recognize the certain symptoms that are exhibited by most "suicidal" individuals, definitely worth the effort.  Is it "on the military"?  Possibly not, but a difference of 12.4/100K in the general pop to 23/100K in soldiers is a pretty large discrepancy.  Hearing some of the guys around here talk about their PDA's, no one is being honest about listing their behavioral problems because it flags them as being "weak" or "pussies", they would rather bottle it up and treat it with a bottle and exacerbate the issue.


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## pardus (Mar 22, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> I also think that this isn't on the VA or the military, there are just too many assets available to put it on them. The Army bends over backwards to find and help soldiers who are having issues.


 
I disagree.
The Army fucks people, consciously and unconsciously the entire time they are in the service, over and over again. They set up a house of cards so that when real stress hits people they snap and end it.
Ive been tempted for a while now to write to the SMA and tell him to save the money on the bullshit ACE cards and instead train his NCOs properly and stop his enlisted guys getting fucked through the inefficient/corrupt and uncaring system, that gets all touchy feely after it has repeatedly raped you.
It's a soundbite and it's too late then.


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## AWP (Mar 22, 2013)

This problem is so complex that I don't know if there is a right answer.

Mental health care for civilians is sketchy at times, and from what I've heard from friends the .mil side is much worse.

I can write more tomorrow, but to be brutally honest....the military will never take mental health care seriously. To do so would require a massive change in education and a shift in mentality from leadership at all levels.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 22, 2013)

I'm not saying being in the service is not an excacerbating part of the issue. I think the way we punish young immature soldiers has a lot to do with it. 

Let me give a random example that if anything will go along with some points here. Imagine a young married soldier with a baby. That young soldier gets in trouble of some kind. Half pay, restriction, things like this. Now in addition to his work problems he has monetary problems, then the wife leaves. This kid is now fucked everywhere, he is a pariah at work, has no family support system and he kills himself. Is that the Army's fault? I don't know, we can't smoke soldiers now for fuck ups, so they get paperwork. I personally don't know what the solution is. I just don't think it is a 3 hour terrible PowerPoint on the issue.


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## Crusader74 (Mar 22, 2013)

I think it's prevalent in every Army, not just the US.. Last year we lost about 15 which for a small size Defence force was considered vast. However, all of them were enlisted, from Privates to Sgt's.. I've yet to hear of Officers deciding to end their lives in such a way..

Would that be considered a demographic considering its only prevalent in Enlisted soldiers as opposed to the higher paid Civil Servants of the Officers?

Not sure about the US but Officers are considered Civil Servants and Enlisted are Public Servants ..


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## RackMaster (Mar 22, 2013)

I don't think the numbers are any different, it's just relative to the increase in population; I'm sure plenty more in the past happened and weren't identified as a suicide to either "protect" the family or the image of said Unit, ect.  

There was a major investment in Mental Health here in Canada for the gen pop and serving CF members and Veterans.  But now that there's a recession and we're "no longer at war" , they don't give a shit and said areas are the first to see cuts/hiring freezes.  I don't think it's any different any where else, it's part of the culture change that needs to be fixed.  In general, any mental health injury is not accepted as a "legit" injury and doesn't get the same support as the rest of the medical system.  It's all a bunch of BS, a troop with VD would get more help...


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## Viper1 (Mar 23, 2013)

Puts Soldiers back in communal barracks living in garrison and while deployed and it might lesson the rates somewhat.   It's easier to get depressed and downtrodden when you're alone in your room.  It's harder when you got buddies either helping you through tough times.  Of course the inverse may be true where a guy gets ostracized but it takes a lot for that to happen.

The best section from the last unit here was the sniper section.  Why?  Because they lived together in one room, shared space and became brothers.  Their morale was through the roof.  Everyone else was living separately and I believe some platoons and squads suffered because of that.


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## RackMaster (Mar 23, 2013)

Viper1 said:


> Puts Soldiers back in communal barracks living in garrison and while deployed and it might lesson the rates somewhat. It's easier to get depressed and downtrodden when you're alone in your room. It's harder when you got buddies either helping you through tough times. Of course the inverse may be true where a guy gets ostracized but it takes a lot for that to happen.
> 
> The best section from the last unit here was the sniper section. Why? Because they lived together in one room, shared space and became brothers. Their morale was through the roof. Everyone else was living separately and I believe some platoons and squads suffered because of that.


 
Completely agree. I think I was able to keep things in "check" while I lived in the barracks, even though it was a private room; we had communal living areas and kept an eye on each other regularly. It was once I was living alone that I think things really went down hill.

But I don't think that's a solution for every one and "older" soldiers have earned their independence.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 23, 2013)

Well, in this particular case, what's going to be better for the Soldiers, or more importantly, the service?  What good is smoking a guy going to do here?   Get the paperwork going, get him referred for counseling (all kinds of counseling, apparently) and get the guy some help.  Extreme physical "corrective action" is unlikely to be particularly useful in this situation.

I'm all about putting things in writing.  Moreover, something as complex and potentially volatile as what cback described SHOULD be put in writing.  It doesn't necessarily need to be part of his permanent record, but it bears directly on that Soldier's ability to do his job.  If it's serious enough to warrant it, make whatever he did or failed to do part of his permanent record so when he moves on to his next assignment, he's not starting over with a clean slate, because the issues this hypothetical Soldier has aren't going to end when he signs out of his current unit.  If they're not serious, you can put his whole packet in the shredder the day he leaves the unit, no harm no foul.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 23, 2013)

I wasn't saying he was suicidal before, this is a normal soldier who just screws up then starts down this road to being suicidal.


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## AWP (Mar 23, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> I'm all about putting things in writing. Moreover, something as complex and potentially volatile as what cback described SHOULD be put in writing. It doesn't necessarily need to be part of his permanent record, but it bears directly on that Soldier's ability to do his job. If it's serious enough to warrant it, make whatever he did or failed to do part of his permanent record so when he moves on to his next assignment, he's not starting over with a clean slate, because the issues this hypothetical Soldier has aren't going to end when he signs out of his current unit. If they're not serious, you can put his whole packet in the shredder the day he leaves the unit, no harm no foul.


 
But there's the rub: we want our servicemembers to receive treatment, but if they know something could be a part of their record, even temporarily, then they are less likely to self-identify as having issues. You can say that such paperwork is temporary or shouldn't influence his next NCOER/ OER, but the reality is some bias will exist. Couple that with the "suck it up" mentality found everywhere and you're creating a powder keg; soldiers won't seek help because of the stigma of being "crazy." Add to it the horror stories coming out about how the military treats members (throwing medication at the problem for starters), and it shouldn't surprise any of us if the percentages of patients who self-identify are low.

To further compound the problem, something like PTSD is classified as an anxiety disorder, but other illnesses like bipolar disorder can present as anxiety, at the very least many of the symptoms overlap. Medically and politically the conditions for a PTSD diagnosis are ripe and no one wants to be classified as being bipolar because that's the kiss of death (discharge). While BP is only found in 2.6% of adult Americans, A) how many docs are blanket-diagnosing PTSD and B) how many vets will hide their symptoms or downplay them to remain in uniform?

As a whole, this is an ugly, ugly problem and I'll be surprised if the military ever comes to grips with it. Ultimately, if commanders are willing to accept x% of casualties in wartime, they will accept some percentage of mental health casualties at any time.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 23, 2013)

PTSD diagnosis is a kiss of death as well.

I went for help, wanting to keep my team/career/marriage.

The *only* thing I kept was my marriage.

Military mental medicine is a double D solution and I'm not talking a nice rack.
You pipe up, you're getting drugs and a discharge.


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## Viper1 (Mar 23, 2013)

Ranger Psych said:


> PTSD diagnosis is a kiss of death as well.
> 
> I went for help, wanting to keep my team/career/marriage.
> 
> ...


 
I'm sorry about this brother.  I really am.  I got help in the Q course after trying to deal with a divorce and emotions from my first trip on my own.  I purposefully went outside of the military to a civilian LMFT in town and paid out of pocket.

What is more telling is that LV and I were friends with a lady who did alcohol/drug abuse counseling at Fort Bragg.  She was licensed, credentialed, the whole nine yards.  SHE recommended that I seek help outside of the Army system.  Talk about an eye-opener.


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## Viper1 (Mar 23, 2013)

Ranger Psych said:


> PTSD diagnosis is a kiss of death as well.
> 
> I went for help, wanting to keep my team/career/marriage.
> 
> ...


 
Is this part of the suicide problem as well?  Soldiers find that the service has broken their faith and trust?


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## pardus (Mar 23, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> we can't smoke soldiers now for fuck ups, so they get paperwork.


 
When did this happen?

Anyone know anything about this?


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 23, 2013)

Viper1 said:


> Is this part of the suicide problem as well? Soldiers find that the service has broken their faith and trust?


 
I'd say so.   There was a significant part of me that was pissed off to no end when I recieved my SABO lawsuit paperwork.  Breaking the SABO bit down barney style,  there was around 10,000 guys and gals somewhat like me, across the services, who went for help, got the DD solution by the PEB/MEBs... except that US Code and Regs state that we were supposed to be medically retired.

So not only did I get fucked because I went for help, but I got fucked by a bunch of fucking field grade officers who didn't even bother to follow the regs that I personally followed and enforced for the better part of a decade.

A big part of suicide prevention is having a TL that's up in your shit.  I took care of my team, squad and platoon in multiple ways. at least every other weekend and every friday I was up, poking my head around and seeing what peoples game plans were, DD checking if they're going partying etc. I did a bunch of shit with my squad and team, dragging along the barracks rats as well so they would get out of the barracks and actually get to see some of Alaska while they were there.  Noone was really "left to their own devices". Everyone also had my cellphone written down and if they had any issues everyone knew I was "the QRF" and we'd figure out how to fix what was going on, then figure out later what the piper's toll for the roll was.   Broken down rigs, middle of winter commisary/PX runs since it was quite some distance in -30 for people with no cars,  lost accountability on a bar crawl, etc.  Fixed the problem then, with following training/retraining to make sure whatever happened didn't happen again if it could be helped...if there was even a reason for doing training/retraining.

Just shit I remembered from my various TL's I had, and what I found to be effective and kept me and my guys engrossed in camaraderie and esprit de corps... which makes it harder to hide when you're having issues.


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## Crusader74 (Mar 23, 2013)

Viper1 said:


> I'm sorry about this brother. I really am. I got help in the Q course after trying to deal with a divorce and emotions from my first trip on my own. I purposefully went outside of the military to a civilian LMFT in town and paid out of pocket.
> 
> What is more telling is that LV and I were friends with a lady who did alcohol/drug abuse counseling at Fort Bragg. She was licensed, credentialed, the whole nine yards. SHE recommended that I seek help outside of the Army system. Talk about an eye-opener.


 

It's bad that that you had to go outside the brotherhood of the Army to seek help when you needed it..If I may say, they let you down I'm also horrified Ranger Psych that the Army didn't help you back to fitness and back to what you loved, the Ranger Regt.

We have the PSS manned by Army personal.. What ever the issue its 1000% confidential and even if you admit to being suicidal, you are referred to an outside agency and you still keep your job. 

10 or so years ago an NCO who went gaga out in the field while deployed was repatriated home, given medical help and has since been promoted and now working in an Inf Bn as part of the NCO Cadre and no doubt, he will get promoted again and his problems will not affect his career ..


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## TLDR20 (Mar 23, 2013)

pardus said:


> When did this happen?
> 
> Anyone know anything about this?



You can still, I was exaggerating. A lot of things can be considered hazing, so it is often looked down upon.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 23, 2013)

Irish, I'm not totally sure how things would have gone down differently if I had still been in Regiment. I do know I was "normal" there... but then again, level of sanity is variable considering I volunteered to jump out of every aircraft they wanted me to, move further, faster, and fight harder than the other guy through worse shit and all that.

I think one thing that would really, really help with the actual understanding and mindset of mental health troops with wtf goes on in the "real world of the military"... would be a required branch detail to combat or combat support troops. I get wanting to get medical people in with a direct commission and keeping them in their field, but when they never experience what the rest of the fucking army even does... there's a huge disconnect. It's like trying to explain shit to civilians at that point. They just don't get it.

Cross-service medical support also doesn't really help especially with the combat experience comprehension level. During the weak-sauce year of monthly meetings being the only military "care" given (plus having to swap through pills) I saw an Air Force full bird psychiatrist, and an Army major psychologist. Neither could really be talked to about what was going on in my head because I'd spend 3/4 of an hour explaining what I was trying to say, since common military jargon like "rucksack" or "objective" or "casevac" eludes their apparent "welcome to the military" classes they get when they get their shiny collar bits out of a fucking crackerjack box that was next to the DSM-IV they bought at a used gift shop.

In the cross-service defense.... initially, I received good care. Unfortunately, the former command shrink for AFSOC who I was seeing, ended up being only TDY to Alaska from Hawaii... and then I got handed off to COL Derptard Extremis IV who couldn't be bothered to keep full track of what the fuck was even going on with me.

Example, and this is from his didactics submitted for review by the MEB/PEB:

I'm married
I'm single
I'm divorced
I'm an only child
I'm the middle
I'm the oldest
I have 8 kids
I have 0 kids
I have 1 kid on the way
I'm a Private
I'm a Sergeant First Class
I'm a Sergeant
I'm on my initial enlistment
I've been in 8 years
I have 1 combat deployment
I have 3 combat deployments
I have no combat deployments

They really paid attention to me and what I had going on. No lip service there.


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## goon175 (Mar 23, 2013)

I think the problem starts with weak parenting, but it doesn't end there though. 

I personally cannot wrap my head around how someone comes to the point of taking their own life, it just doesn't make sense in my head. I had a soldier commit suicide, and he was the last person in the world I would have ever thought to do it, I just don't know how he got to that point, don't understand it.


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## AWP (Mar 24, 2013)

goon175 said:


> I think the problem starts with weak parenting, but it doesn't end there though.
> 
> I personally cannot wrap my head around how someone comes to the point of taking their own life, it just doesn't make sense in my head. I had a soldier commit suicide, and he was the last person in the world I would have ever thought to do it, I just don't know how he got to that point, don't understand it.


 
I disagree with your premise of weak parenting. It may play a role in some cases, but not all.

It is easy to say that, and I understand where you're coming from, if you don't suffer from depression. Once someone has it in their head that there is no hope, no way out, no possible fix action for their problems, then suicide becomes an easy answer for them. You reach a self-perpetuating cycle or endless emotional loop which almost always returns that train to Suicideville, Population: You. You are truly in an emotional hole at that point. While the decision to take your own life may be irrational, to a person caught in that loop it is the only logical conclusion.

I'm not condoning it or justifying it, but people need to understand just how bad you have to hurt and how hopeless you have to feel to take your own life.

As to how to pull someone from that hole, there is no silver bullet. You can help, prod, push them in certain directions, but there is no one-size-fits-all solution to the problem.

I think those last two issues, understanding how someone arrives in that hole, and that there isn't an easy or universal fix are more reasons why we'll never have a handle on suicide prevention ANYWHERE on the planet.


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## RackMaster (Mar 24, 2013)

goon175 said:


> I think the problem starts with weak parenting, but it doesn't end there though.
> 
> I personally cannot wrap my head around how someone comes to the point of taking their own life, it just doesn't make sense in my head. I had a soldier commit suicide, and he was the last person in the world I would have ever thought to do it, I just don't know how he got to that point, don't understand it.


 
From personal experience of helping a few Brothers off "the ledge", it is usually the ones that you least expect and it's usually because they are doing their best to keep from passing on the pain to their friends/family. They think that this is the only option to remove the "burden" on their loved ones.  And all the ones I've known that attempted or succeeded came from solid families.


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## Crusader74 (Mar 24, 2013)

RackMaster said:


> From personal experience of helping a few Brothers off "the ledge", it is usually the ones that you least expect and it's usually because they are doing their best to keep from passing on the pain to their friends/family. They think that this is the only option to remove the "burden" on their loved ones. And all the ones I've known that attempted or succeeded came from solid families.


 

I'm sure you remember me losing a comrade and again came from a solid family.. No idea and the shear devastation it leaves behind...


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## RackMaster (Mar 24, 2013)

Irish said:


> I'm sure you remember me losing a comrade and again came from a solid family.. No idea and the shear devastation it leaves behind...


 
I do Brother, I do.


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## goon175 (Mar 24, 2013)

My point on the weak parenting, is that I think if you don't build up resilience in your kids as they are developing, than it is only logical that that person would less resilient later in life when put under extreme pressure from outside stressors. I don't think that is the case in all scenarios, and I don't think that would be the only reason  either. But I definitely see what you guys are saying, and again I can't wrap my head around it in the first place which already puts me at a disadvantage to understanding it.


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## RackMaster (Mar 24, 2013)

goon175 I completely understand what you are saying.  I don't understand it fully either and I don't think any one ever will.  I think it's just part of human nature, it's always been there and always will be.


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## pardus (Mar 24, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> You can still, I was exaggerating. A lot of things can be considered hazing, so it is often looked down upon.


 
Roger.


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## RetPara (Mar 25, 2013)

Goon, I hear what your saying, and believe I understand better than most here.  I've been treated for severe clinical depression since 1993.  I'll be on meds the rest of my life.  The former CIA Station Chief in Moag in '93 later described the why of his having issues before his retirement "When you work in a high speed/high stress environment long enough, something eventually will break...."  That is somewhat paraphrased, but close.  I know what 'the edge' or should say that dark tunnel when you looking down the muzzle of Smith & Wesson looks like.  Take the worse hangover, having the shit beat out of you, having your wife divorce you, your dog dying, and your mother telling you that your adopted and she didn't pick you - compress that into the time and space to where ALL of that feels like its coming down on you for days at a time.  You fall into isolation not because you feel sorry for yourself, you just don't want to talk to anyone.  I was lucky; Womack had a Psychiatrist, long retired from AD, but basically told me that if I killed myself; no matter what I said in a note or whatever, my kids would blame themselves for the rest of their lives.  I pull that conversation out and reply it mentally a couple of times a year as a reality check.  I hate to think about what my kids would of had to experience growing up if I had decided not to be here.  They've turned out pretty damn good despite the fact that my daughter has gone Liberal on me.   I just chalk it up to her degree in Social Work.  My son was medically disqualed from the military, but is on his second full time job in InfoSec while hopefully graduating with a BS this year.  Going from JROTC Bn Cdr to getting his hair cut annually (usually) has taken getting used to though.

Making that final decision (and it is a final one) to take that last step is not a hard one.  When you get to that point it really, really feels like the permanent solution to a problem that is not temporary, but one that is just going to get worse every day.  The crushing weight of the darkness under which you are under weighs down without letup.  We see the issues that these people face as temporary.  To them they are not; you've hit bottom and the pickaxe doesn't work.  Asking for help is no longer an option; that specific option went by the wayside some time ago.  The exercise of that option can be so subtle though, it goes right by and is not noticed.  That's because the last bit of will and stamina has been used in 'maintaining an appearance'.  The asking for help probably did occur, but NOT in a concrete and recognizable way.

*“Death is as light as a feather, duty heavier than a mountain”​*
​ 
Pardon me....  I have to figure out which personality took which meds and when.  I just wish we could all get along.....


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## goon175 (Mar 25, 2013)

That is an excellent articulation of that frame of mind, thank you for sharing your personal story RetPara, you have honestly helped me understand it a bit better than before.


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## Spider6 (May 7, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> I'm not saying being in the service is not an excacerbating part of the issue. I think the way we punish young immature soldiers has a lot to do with it.
> 
> Let me give a random example that if anything will go along with some points here. Imagine a young married soldier with a baby. That young soldier gets in trouble of some kind. Half pay, restriction, things like this. Now in addition to his work problems he has monetary problems, then the wife leaves. This kid is now fucked everywhere, he is a pariah at work, has no family support system and he kills himself. Is that the Army's fault? I don't know, we can't smoke soldiers now for fuck ups, so they get paperwork. I personally don't know what the solution is. I just don't think it is a 3 hour terrible PowerPoint on the issue.


 
I saw that a few times as well.  I had at least 3 Soldiers who had gotten married right out of high school and then enlisted.  I got the impression that these young men thought that once they joined the service all their problems were therefore solved.  In all 3 cases they couldn't provide, his young wife left and then he feels like a failure.

I will also say that it amazed me how these young men would make such a turn around once you sat down with them and gave them some personal guidance.  You almost actually see the light bulb light up.  I know that's not the answer for all the young men and women, but that was my experience.


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## Spider6 (May 7, 2013)

pardus said:


> When did this happen?
> 
> Anyone know anything about this?


 
Boss I got a few buddies down at Pre-Ranger at Benning who are starting to be told they "shouldn't" smoke Soldiers but rather counsel them in writing.


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## Spider6 (May 7, 2013)

Ranger Psych said:


> Irish, I'm not totally sure how things would have gone down differently if I had still been in Regiment. I do know I was "normal" there... but then again, level of sanity is variable considering I volunteered to jump out of every aircraft they wanted me to, move further, faster, and fight harder than the other guy through worse shit and all that.
> 
> I think one thing that would really, really help with the actual understanding and mindset of mental health troops with wtf goes on in the "real world of the military"... would be a required branch detail to combat or combat support troops. I get wanting to get medical people in with a direct commission and keeping them in their field, but when they never experience what the rest of the fucking army even does... there's a huge disconnect. It's like trying to explain shit to civilians at that point. They just don't get it.
> 
> ...


 
Likewise:  Only the VA had me sit down with a retired CAPT from the Navy who barely paid attention the whole time I was talking.  Funny thing too when I went back to work for the police dept the Dept Shrink asked me quote "Did you see any dead bodies?"  To which I replied "Well yes sir but you know I was a cop before I deployed right?" He simply wrote fit for duty on a scrap piece of paper and told me to give it to my Zone Commander.  That whole interview was all of 10 minutes.


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## digrar (May 7, 2013)

I've just finished a book called Hell's Bells and Mademoiselles by Lt Joe Maxwell VC, MC (and Bar), DCM. He left Australia with his Battalion, serving in Gallipoli and France and was one of a handful of originals to return with it. He was awarded the DCM on the 17 Sept 1917, the MC on the 3rd of March 1918, the bar to his MC on the 9th of August 1918 and the VC on the 3rd of October 1918. He was the second most decorated Australian soldier in WW1.

Joe knew of 19 suicides from his mob. 8 he knew definitely to be suicides, the others he was certain of, but felt had been covered up by the families due to the stigma attached.

I don't think the high rate of suicide is anything new. It's always gone on and was most probably under reported in years gone by.


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## AWP (May 9, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> Once someone has it in their head that there is no hope, no way out, no possible fix action for their problems, then suicide becomes an easy answer for them. You reach a self-perpetuating cycle or endless emotional loop which almost always returns that train to Suicideville, Population: You. You are truly in an emotional hole at that point. While the decision to take your own life may be irrational, to a person caught in that loop it is the only logical conclusion.
> 
> I'm not condoning it or justifying it, but people need to understand just how bad you have to hurt and how hopeless you have to feel to take your own life.
> 
> ...


 
A friend sent me this link. While a long read it also has drawings if your eyes glaze over.

If you want to know what it is like to suffer from depression and to consider suicide, you really, REALLY need to read this. Break it into chunks if you have to, but this does a very good job.

http://hyperboleandahalf.blogspot.com/2013/05/depression-part-two.html



> It's weird for people who still have feelings to be around depressed people. They try to help you have feelings again so things can go back to normal, and it's frustrating for them when that doesn't happen. From their perspective, it seems like there has _got_ to be some untapped source of happiness within you that you've simply lost track of, and if you could just see how beautiful things are...


 


> When I say that deciding to not kill myself was the worst part, I should clarify that I don't mean it in a retrospective sense. From where I am now, it seems like a solid enough decision. But at the time, it felt like I had been dragging myself through the most miserable, endless wasteland, and — far in the distance — I had seen the promising glimmer of a slightly less miserable wasteland. And for just a moment, I thought maybe I'd be able to stop and rest. But as soon as I arrived at the border of the less miserable wasteland, I found out that I'd have to turn around and walk back the other way.


 
I almost made this a separate thread in Gen. Discussion but didn't. Hopefully a few of you are still reading this thread.


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## digrar (May 9, 2013)

Allie Brosh is a very funny young lady. I'm glad she found floor corn.


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## RetPara (May 13, 2013)

digrar said:


> I don't think the high rate of suicide is anything new. It's always gone on and was most probably under reported in years gone by.


 
In past generations alcohol poisoning, OD, accidental death while intoxicated, auto accidents, or simply going on the road into the homeless underground were all options.  While suicide was considered an exception, instead of near norm, while there may be doubts or unspoken concern, it was easier to attribute the death to an accident of some nature. 

Then there are the living dead...  The father of a good friend came home from WWII physically healthy despite a couple of Purple Hearts the family knew of.  As he aged he grew more and more remote from his family.  He would come home from work, sit with a TV tray in front of the television and eat dinner with a few beers.  Then he would go to bed.  The next day he got up and did it all over again... through the 60's, 70's, and 80's till his death.  He was like a Spinx in the living room.  It was not until he had died and at the bottom of a drawer they found his Distinguished Service Cross from an action in the Hurtgen Forest.

Sometimes I think that those of us that do come home, need to remember that we also live for those who never will.


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## Spider6 (Jun 17, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> I'm not saying being in the service is not an excacerbating part of the issue. I think the way we punish young immature soldiers has a lot to do with it.
> 
> Let me give a random example that if anything will go along with some points here. Imagine a young married soldier with a baby. That young soldier gets in trouble of some kind. Half pay, restriction, things like this. Now in addition to his work problems he has monetary problems, then the wife leaves. This kid is now fucked everywhere, he is a pariah at work, has no family support system and he kills himself. Is that the Army's fault? I don't know, we can't smoke soldiers now for fuck ups, so they get paperwork. I personally don't know what the solution is. I just don't think it is a 3 hour terrible PowerPoint on the issue.


 
Majority of Military Suicides Never Saw Combat

http://www.military.com/daily-news/...ver-saw-combat.html?comp=7000023317843&rank=1

"About 20 percent of military suicide victims in 2011 had been diagnosed with a mood disorder such as depression, the Pentagon said, and about half had suffered a failed marriage, often within months of their deaths."

It's been a little while but the above article supports what cback0220 stated earlier and a few cases I saw while in command.


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## Florida173 (Jun 20, 2013)

The current pussifying culture of the military means that we don't get rid of the soldiers we'd suspect of being like this sooner.


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## amlove21 (Jun 20, 2013)

Florida173 said:


> The current pussifying culture of the military means that we don't get rid of the soldiers we'd suspect of being like this sooner.



I lol'd.

Are you suggesting we are now doing a bad job of selecting and eliminating those people that may/may not be predisposed to suicide later in their military careers by making the beginning stages of their careers too easy (e.g "pussifying"?)

Because that is not only ridiculous, but I would like to see that evidenced anywhere.


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## Florida173 (Jun 20, 2013)

amlove21 said:


> I lol'd.
> 
> Are you suggesting we are now doing a bad job of selecting and eliminating those people that may/may not be predisposed to suicide later in their military careers by making the beginning stages of their careers too easy (e.g "pussifying"?)
> 
> Because that is not only ridiculous, but I would like to see that evidenced anywhere.



I'm guessing we've had entirely different experiences in the military..


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## amlove21 (Jun 20, 2013)

Florida173 said:


> I'm guessing we've had entirely different experiences in the military..



Well, that's not really an answer, is it? Sort of a non-related factoid. But I'd agree that we have had very different military careers.

On what basis are you making this claim? The entire psychological community can not and has not ever been able "select out" individuals that are thinking about committing suicide years in the future. It seems as if you're stating your answer as fact. On what grounds are you implying that if we "get harder" as a military and not "pussify" the younger troops, suicide rates will drop as a result?


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## SpongeBob*24 (Jun 20, 2013)

RetPara said:


> Sometimes I think that those of us that do come home, need to remember that we also live for those who never will.



Well put RP.......


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## Florida173 (Jun 20, 2013)

amlove21 said:


> Well, that's not really an answer, is it? Sort of a non-related factoid. But I'd agree that we have had very different military careers.
> 
> On what basis are you making this claim? The entire psychological community can not and has not ever been able "select out" individuals that are thinking about committing suicide years in the future. It seems as if you're stating your answer as fact. On what grounds are you implying that if we "get harder" as a military and not "pussify" the younger troops, suicide rates will drop as a result?



The word "experiences" is a good indicator


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## TLDR20 (Jun 20, 2013)

A guy I know, one of the hardest charging muldoons I have ever known killed himself in a motel room Tuesday. He should have been weeded out? Give me a fucking break. You could not have designed a selection to keep him out.


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## amlove21 (Jun 20, 2013)

Florida173 said:


> The word "experiences" is a good indicator



Hey man- it's a bullshit statement. I'd be running from it too. Thing is, that dog won't hunt. 

You can imply, wink wink, "knowing smile" all you want. 

At this point, you can either A- back up your ridiculous claim with evidenced proof for what you say (and feel free to reference all that experience you have on the matter) or you can B- admit that was a dumb thing to say and press on.


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## Florida173 (Jun 20, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> A guy I know, one of the hardest charging muldoons I have ever known killed himself in a motel room Tuesday. He should have been weeded out? Give me a fucking break. You could not have designed a selection to keep him out.



And you have rebutted an anecdotal answer with an anecdotal answer..


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## Florida173 (Jun 20, 2013)

amlove21 said:


> Hey man- it's a bullshit statement. I'd be running from it too. Thing is, that dog won't hunt.
> 
> You can imply, wink wink, "knowing smile" all you want.
> 
> At this point, you can either A- back up your ridiculous claim with evidenced proof for what you say (and feel free to reference all that experience you have on the matter) or you can B- admit that was a dumb thing to say and press on.



so are those my only two options?


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 20, 2013)

Third option is just stopping posting about something you aren't understanding anyway.


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## Florida173 (Jun 20, 2013)

Amazing I am getting so much push back on this... I'm just suggesting that some people of weak mental fortitude that previously would have been weeded out through the typical soldiering process have slipped through with a more PC atmosphere that we've had.  It's not a one answer fits all obviously...


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## amlove21 (Jun 20, 2013)

Florida173 said:


> Amazing I am getting so much push back on this.



How is it amazing that you're receiving pushback? You made an asinine statement about a process you clearly don't understand, in a public forum full of people that have actual experience. The only amazing thing is that the pushback surprises you. 



Florida173 said:


> I'm just suggesting that some people of weak mental fortitude that previously would have been weeded out through the typical soldiering process have slipped through with a more PC atmosphere that we've had.



We know what you're suggesting, and your suggestion is fundamentally flawed- you can't "weed out" people that may be subject to suicidal tendencies/ideations later in life _or the military and countless other agencies would already employ the tactic._ It is impossible, and proven through years of psychological/psychosocial experimentation to be so. For the record, you characterising people that commit suicide as those of "weak mental fortitude" only highlights your ignorance, and I take issue with it.  


Florida173 said:


> so are those my only two options?



Especially at this point, yes. @Ranger Psych 's third option of of stop posting would work well as an alternative.


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## AWP (Jun 21, 2013)

Florida173 said:


> Amazing I am getting so much push back on this... *I'm just suggesting that some people of weak mental fortitude*


 
That's one of the more insulting and ignorant statements I've seen on this board in years.

You're part of the problem because you don't understand it. People in leadership roles who have that mentality contribute to the problem. You don't need to be touchy-feely with someone who has mental health issues, but you need to be receptive to their problems. By summarily discrediting them as "weak" you've guaranteed that no one who knows your views will seek out your help.  With your attitude, I really hope you are never in a leadership position.

ETA: underlined text


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## RustyShackleford (Jun 21, 2013)

Many of us have been hearing about the "pussification" of the military for years.  It's a work in progress.  Ever changing.  The problem is that people actually think that smoking the living fuck out of a guy makes him (or her) hard, and to an extent, I guess it does.  Hell, I used to smoke the fuck out of guys, but I also brought some creative punishment to the table.  Neither would have given me an indicator of someone who would go off and kill themselves 1, 2, 5, or 10 years down the road.  Even those who are mentally tough have weak moments or go through rough times and can potentially lose hope.

Cback's analogy of the married soldier getting an article 15, losing money, etc. resulting in divorce/suicide is the flipside of the leader who only uses physical punishment as a corrective action.  Both can lead to big problems and are indicative of leaders who should not be leading and is exactly why a leader should know the people working for him, and not just at the team or squad level.  As an aside (and kind of off-topic), I could never figure out the CoCs that used UCMJ including loss of pay on soldiers who fucked up financially.  Talk about adding fuel to the fire.


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## Florida173 (Jun 21, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> Many of us have been hearing about the "pussification" of the military for years.  It's a work in progress.  Ever changing.  The problem is that people actually think that smoking the living fuck out of a guy makes him (or her) hard, and to an extent, I guess it does.  Hell, I used to smoke the fuck out of guys, but I also brought some creative punishment to the table.  Neither would have given me an indicator of someone who would go off and kill themselves 1, 2, 5, or 10 years down the road.  Even those who are mentally tough have weak moments or go through rough times and can potentially lose hope.
> 
> Cback's analogy of the married soldier getting an article 15, losing money, etc. resulting in divorce/suicide is the flipside of the leader who only uses physical punishment as a corrective action.  Both can lead to big problems and are indicative of leaders who should not be leading and is exactly why a leader should know the people working for him, and not just at the team or squad level.  As an aside (and kind of off-topic), I could never figure out the CoCs that used UCMJ including loss of pay on soldiers who fucked up financially.  Talk about adding fuel to the fire.



That's a good point and appreciate putting that in perspective.  Relating to what Spider posted on more "never deployed" soldiers committing suicide is odd from the typical narrative on the push to correlate TBI with suicide, as with football players.  Although it will be interesting to see what happens with all the cuts and the lack of employment for a lot of people that have found financial stability with Overseas Contingency funds that are now going away.



Freefalling said:


> That's one of the more insulting and ignorant statements I've seen on this board in years.
> 
> You're part of the problem because you don't understand it. People in leadership roles who have that mentality contribute to the problem. You don't need to be touchy-feely with someone who has mental health issues, but you need to be receptive to their problems. By summarily discrediting them as "weak" you've guaranteed that no one who knows your views will seek out your help.  With your attitude, I really hope you are never in a leadership position.
> 
> ETA: underlined text



I've obviously been away from this board too long to get this much criticism..  I'm apart of the problem in that I don't typically care to empathize with other people's drama.  I suppose I can blame that on too many deployments or some crap.  I apologize to anyone that has taken anything I say personally, I was already in a foul mood with some of the BS going on in the industry right now directly effecting me.  We've all lost enough good friends to have been effected by this and amlove21's response is just as insulting and ignorant.  Rebut and take the higher ground, no need to escalate.. The common theme of pussification as RustyShackeford has suggested has been around for a few years.

Maybe it's about time to do another rotation down range or something when my contract changes soon.


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## AWP (Jun 21, 2013)

Florida173 said:


> I've obviously been away from this board too long to get this much criticism..


 
Did you read the entire thread or just dive in midway through or what? Going back to page 2/ bottom of page 1 I think several of us provided a perspective on the issue. Did you read all of that including the link in one of my posts?


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## Florida173 (Jun 21, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> Did you read the entire thread or just dive in midway through or what? Going back to page 2/ bottom of page 1 I think several of us provided a perspective on the issue. Did you read all of that including the link in one of my posts?



I must have missed you guys also giving perspective of what I had suggested, and I didn't get a chance to read all of that on that link you gave.


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## RetPara (Jun 21, 2013)

Of all the consolidated Cranial Rectal Inversion I have seen in the MI Corps....  some of these comments are amazing.  Since about 2005 the military collectively has been in uncharted territory when it comes to mental health.  It was documented in WWII and confirmed in conflicts since 9/11 that once a soldier breaks the 250 days in combat has a high propensity to mental issues.


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## Florida173 (Jun 22, 2013)

RetPara said:


> Of all the consolidated Cranial Rectal Inversion I have seen in the MI Corps....  some of these comments are amazing.  Since about 2005 the military collectively has been in uncharted territory when it comes to mental health.  It was documented in WWII and confirmed in conflicts since 9/11 that once a soldier breaks the 250 days in combat has a high propensity to mental issues.



By that logic I suppose I must have retardedly high propensity to mental issues.
I don't think I could ever compare my deployments with that of vets from before 9/11 personally though..


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## pardus (Jun 22, 2013)

Florida173 said:


> By that logic I suppose I must have retardedly high propensity to mental issues.
> I don't think I could ever compare my deployments with that of vets from before 9/11 personally though..



Well I think that would depend on your definition of "combat". 
Ive seen more combat in bars than some people walking around with CIB/CMB/CAB's...


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## Florida173 (Jun 22, 2013)

pardus said:


> Well I think that would depend on your definition of "combat".
> Ive seen more combat in bars than some people walking around with CIB/CMB/CAB's...



Is that sans sheep?


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## RackMaster (Jun 22, 2013)

Florida173 said:


> *By that logic I suppose I must have retardedly high propensity to mental issues.*
> I don't think I could ever compare my deployments with that of vets from before 9/11 personally though..



You do.  But just because it hasn't happened yet, doesn't mean the potential isn't there; it's different for everyone and we all don't respond to trauma the same way.  Now that doesn't mean that the death of a family member, divorce, job loss, homelessness, etc.; won't affect you years down the road.  Those events can be the final "straw" and things start spiralling.


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## Polar Bear (Jun 22, 2013)

Everyone has a breaking point.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 22, 2013)

I think a good amount has to do with what types of stress soldiers dealt with in the past prior to their combat experiences. I also believe that it depends on the levels of stress the soldier faces, in combat, from the unit he/she is assigned too and from the home front while deployed. I would also go as far as that a lot of it has to do with what the soldier takes on as added stress (a leader? Lose of a soldier? Failure in tasks or mission objectives?). There are so many factors at play and humans are so unique, it really hard to “A is caused by B”. Personally I do believe the Army went the wrong way with the suicide prevention/intervention. But that is no longer my place to judge and or cast opinions on.  

I think any time that you have 11+ years of significant war; it will take its toll on any group of people and or organization. I also think that the effects of this past decade will not be fully realized for several more years.

The best I can come up with is that the Army should stop trying to place band-aids on the suicide issue and look at what needs to be done to prevent soldiers from stumbling into that breaking point in life. Either it is from better screening during enlistments, or prior to combat deployment, or even having adequate care post deployment. Some people may argue that it is being done, but I personally did not see it done (much less done well). 

That said, I doubt that the problem can be eradicated or reduced to the levels of civilian society. I think military suicide “during a time of war” will always be higher than that of a civilian population unaffected by said war. It’s just the nature of the beast. 

I also do not put much weight into the studies of past conflicts vs current conflicts when it comes to human behavior. The amount of restrictions placed on soldiers in today’s conflict far exceed those of past conflicts. Soldiers do not have proper decompress methods like many other conflicts allowed. Spending 15-18 months without a woman, a drink, a walk by yourself, etc, etc. All while engaging in highly complex warfare, with a non-uniformed enemy and dealing with a highly restrictive ROE. 

I can go on and on, but I personally think there is a lot more to it then simply saying “this generation is touchy feely”.


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## DAVE101 (Jun 22, 2013)

There's so much I'd like to comment on in this thread, but I'll start from the beginning. I find the statistics on this topic_ very_ interesting and largely misinterpreted.



LibraryLady said:


> Your article states a rate of 9 in 100k active-duty soldiers committed suicide in 2001 increasing to 23 in 100k in 2011. By comparison, the overall national average in 2001 was 10.7 in 100k and in 2010 it only rose to 12.4 in 100k. Though if you were to drill it down even further to looking at age groups, the stats would be skewed even further since the general population already includes the military suicides and the vast majority of gen pop suicides occur in the 45+ age range.


That really isn't an appropriate comparison. The "general pop" also includes the 14 and under age bracket, which is larger than any other, and has a non-existent suicide rate. *The "general pop" also includes females.* This is the biggest point because the rate for men is 5 times higher than for women (average rate of 20/100K vs 4/100K). So after considering that the Military is male dominant, we are (or were) faring quite well relative to the general US pop.

http://www.afsp.org/understanding-suicide/facts-and-figures


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## DAVE101 (Jun 23, 2013)

Spider6 said:


> Majority of Military Suicides Never Saw Combat
> http://www.military.com/daily-news/...ver-saw-combat.html?comp=7000023317843&rank=1





			
				The above link said:
			
		

> A lot of the risk for suicide in the military is the stuff they bring with them... If these servicemembers are coming in with pre-existing vulnerabilities, it's more likely these vulnerabilities will be activated.





Spider6 said:


> I saw that a few times as well.  I had at least 3 Soldiers who had gotten married right out of high school and then enlisted.  I got the impression that these young men thought that once they joined the service all their problems were therefore solved.  In all 3 cases they couldn't provide, his young wife left and then he feels like a failure.



Yes! I think generally we get too caught up in combat = emotional disturbance. There is something to be said about predispositions. What are the demographics of a typical enlistee? Lower SES and lower level of education are common, and both put the soldier at higher risk (ref 1). That might explain the officer vs enlisted rates. A lot of young people put the military as a Plan B (to college or whatever). While there is nothing wrong with that (except that it should have been Plan A ), a sizable chunk of the military must consist of the types of people that have to rely on a back up plan. These individuals are more likely to face adversity down the road. Spider6's comment about young couples is interesting as well. Divorce rates are inversely related to age at marriage (ref 2), and nowhere else  can you find so many people married/engaged before the age of 20. Couldn't that also be grounds for impulsive behavior, another risk factor?

It's fair to speculate that the military _doesn't_ actually create emotional disturbance (any more than a civilian job). As the 2nd quote above sums up: the vulnerability is pre-existing, what happens in the service is just one way that allows it to manifest. I hope I don't catch too much flak for this.

Reference 1: http://www.guardian.co.uk/news/datablog/2013/feb/01/us-military-suicides-trend-charts
Reference 2: http://www.divorcerate.org/


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## AWP (Jun 23, 2013)

DAVE101 said:


> It's fair to speculate that the military _doesn't_ actually create emotional disturbance (any more than a civilian job).


 
There are a lot of civilian jobs which routinely send the employees out to be maimed or killed? How many civilian jobs are there where a failure to perform by one individual leads to another's death?


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## DAVE101 (Jun 23, 2013)

None. One could possibly make an argument for certain law enforcement jobs, but no civilian job will come close to the amount of stress placed on a deployed combat service member. What I _meant_ to say is that it certainly isn't required to create the emotional problems necessary for suicidal ideation as evidenced by the "52% of suicides had never seen combat" in the link above. While it certainly can be the main cause for some, I think the predisposition plays a bigger role for the majority (again this is just speculation on my part). Otherwise wouldn't military suicide rates be muuuuuch higher than civilian's (after accounting for age/sex)?


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## pardus (Jun 23, 2013)

I think predisposition can certainly play a role but I believe the nature of the job, i.e. stress, finances, lack of time to have a real life outside the uniform, the constant getting fucked around by the system and higher ups and deployments and all that entails, accounts for the greater proportion of suicide factors.
@DAVE101 I disagree with your theory about the nature of people enlisting. True there are people who enlist that do so because it's their only chance of a half decent life, but in my experience they are the minority.
Most people who enlist are smart, educated with a sound head on their shoulders, a lot are idealistic/patriotic (this alone can lead to problems*). Yes there is a lot of risk taking but that is to be expected in people who have volunteered to fight and die for their country.





*People that are told they are the best, who then discover at times of great hardship that it's not necessarily true, have a greater chance of cracking than someone more realistic/cynical. my .02c


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## RetPara (Jun 24, 2013)

DAVE101 said:


> None. One could possibly make an argument for certain law enforcement jobs, but no civilian job will come close to the amount of stress placed on a deployed combat service member.


  Consider the suicide rate of EMS, Fire, and LE.  Every day at work every one of these occupations provide ample opportunity not only to get yourself killed, but to directly or indirectly cause the death of others.  Find a state trooper or county sheriff to do a ride along with.


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 24, 2013)

DAVE101 said:


> One could possibly make an argument for certain law enforcement jobs, but no civilian job will come close to the amount of stress placed on a deployed combat service member.



2011-2012, *293* Firefighters took their own lives. 

As a former Ranger and former Firefighter, just with my experience in a low call density area (>1000 runs a year for my station).

Try fighting a fire where the family members are having to be physically held back because their child is in the structure you cannot enter because it's on the verge of collapse from fire. 
Try responding to a call of  "Station 61 62 63 Central ALL CALL, house explosion with entrapment, *Street you live on* numbers unknown".
Try having to do a defensive attack on a structure because there are massive explosions inside the house due to the occupant being an Emphysema patient so you can't enter without killing yourself... and you hear her inside still.

Then come tell me that there aren't civilian jobs that come close to the mental and emotional stress of being in the military.

You're talking out of your ass, son.


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## digrar (Jun 24, 2013)

Underground mine rescue, anyone who's worked on an oil rig when it's gone pear shaped, fishermen caught in a once in a lifetime storm, anyone who's worked in a petrochemical plant when it's gone pear shaped, anyone who's responded to a train smash, or earth quake, flash flooding, a farmer caught in an auger and been scalped or had an arm ripped off, I know a bloke who was bowled over by a bull and played with for 2 hours before anyone found him, he's still alive, I'd say he endured a pretty stressful time, I was at a game of local football when the 2 umpires had just finished a day of work officiating at the grand final, one of them turned on the water for the shower, water entering the improvised hot water system flashed to steam, the water vessel exploded, killed two kids, injured my sister and 3 close friends were put into the ICU for several weeks, the blast destroyed two buildings, the umpire in the shower was sliced up by the tiles, he survived but it was pretty messy. My dad has been trapped in a bush fire, I worked with a bloke who cradled his mate as he died after watching him get crushed by a large mine truck tyre, another woman killed her husband as she drove off in her mine truck, not realising he was still working on it, another bloke watched his mate sitting in a vehicle get run over by a bull dozer, a mate of mine knows of suburban train drivers who have run over multiple people who have selfishly used his train as an exit strategy. The list is endless.


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## DAVE101 (Jun 24, 2013)

:wall:

It is clear that I've stepped out of my lane. Please recognize that my comment was in direct response to Freefalling, who I interpreted as being agitated by my previous remark. I acknowledge (but apparently failed to in my previous post) that LE, Fire and Rescue as being just as mentally demanding, and sometimes even more-so.



Florida173 said:


> The current pussifying culture of the military means that we don't get rid of the soldiers we'd suspect of being like this sooner.


So I don't care for much of the conversation that followed this, but it's interesting to *speculate the reasons why the rate increased*. Personally, I don't think we can make any accurate assumptions, there are just too many confounds. You know what happened in that 10 year span? A war. That alone is enough to create enough confounding variables to throw away any theory as to why this is happening. For example, recruiters _must_ find more people to enlist. So naturally there are less stringent requirements to get in. When I went to MEPS in 2007, a good portion of my peers were HS dropouts with GEDs. So now we are working with a totally different population. Does having a GED increase one's risk for struggles down the line? Maybe. Does that make them a Pussy? Certainly not. The recent decrease in op tempo definitely gives service members an opportunity to run into trouble. I really believe there are too many variables to accurately find the reason.

Someone else commented that you can't really screen for the possibility of psychological illness years in the future. With the "strict filter" hypothesis, would we maybe see a pattern across strict/soft branches? I don't see any trends in the 2011 data:

US Army - 23/100K
US Air Force - 13/100K
US Navy - 15/100K
US Marines - 15/100K


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## AWP (Jun 24, 2013)

DAVE101 said:


> It is clear that I've stepped out of my lane. Please recognize that my comment was in direct response to Freefalling, who I interpreted as being agitated by my previous remark. I acknowledge (but apparently failed to in my previous post) that LE, Fire and Rescue as being just as mentally demanding, and sometimes even more-so. always exist.


 
Agitated? No, You made it sound like Mil and civ occupations are one and the same for stressors. The overwhelming majority of civilian jobs aren't life and limb stressful like many in the military (particularly in wartime while trolling for IEDs). I wasn't attempting to discount police/ fire/ oil and gas/ etc. jobs.

I think this also underscores the nature of the problem: there is no magic bullet or "A ha!" moment where one can find a common thread from one suicide to the next. There are so many variables and combinations that you can't "profile" someone who is about to commit suicide.

I'm reminded of the Rashomon where the characters have a different interpretation or memory of past events. The same can be said for 5 people, regardless of their job, who witness a traumatic event. The event will have a different impact on each person despite their shared careerfield/ MOS.


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## reed11b (Jun 24, 2013)

I still believe the increased susceptability is mostly myth. The suicide rates for young men, i.e. military aged males, is still very high on the civilian side. Yes it is a big deal that this is the first time since we started tracking such things that the military rate has gone above the civilian rate, but hardly an empidemic when compared to the civilian side. Trauma exposure has a low correlation to suicide rate BTW.
Reed


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## Buildanddestroy (Jun 27, 2013)

I'd say a big part of it is a vicious cycle of playing the blame game.  There isn't as much going on meant to help those in need as much as there is to cover the chain of command when something does go wrong.  A world of growing redundancy.  "Did we do everything we could have done to prevent this?  Yes?  Ok, no one gets relieved today."  GAT, Suicide Prevention, miriads of briefings, and saying that it is ok to get help, when we all know once you become visible in the system, its game over.  God forbid you tell anyone that you had trouble sleeping last night.


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