# Marine Raiders



## Ravage (Aug 15, 2009)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JwWFUS5iZf8[/ame]

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Doq6bBwjzHc[/ame]


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## Smurf (Sep 29, 2009)

Great men.


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## 7point62 (Sep 29, 2009)

I was a Raider fanatic as a child. They were disbanded by then but once I saw _Gung Ho!_ with Randolf Scott, I was hooked. The Marines have owned me since then. My unit resurrected some Raider TTP with considerable success.


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## SR-25 (Oct 4, 2009)

Technically the Raiders are still around.


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## 7point62 (Oct 4, 2009)

SR-25 said:


> Technically the Raiders are still around.




That's true. With the MSOBs they've been resurrected...although the Raider Ethic has been a part of the Corps since WW2.  

I think the Marines should get more credit than they do in the development of certain UW TTP that's been considered the "property" of Army SF/SOF. We were conducting FID/COIN/UW ops in Haiti, Santo Domingo and Nicaragua in the 1920's and Evans Carlson and Red Mike Edson--who would become famous Raider commanders--and Chesty Puller, too, all cut their teeth in the Banana wars.

The lessons learned back then were put to good use by the Combined Action Groups in Vietnam.


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## SR-25 (Oct 6, 2009)

It didnt start with MSOB. MEU Boat Companies have carried on the Raider tradition for quite some time.


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## Teufel (Oct 7, 2009)

SR-25 said:


> Technically the Raiders are still around.



I wouldn't say Raiders are still around.  The Marine Corps has never liked having "elite" units and as a result the Raider Regiment became 4th Marines in WWII.  We still see signs of their legacy everywhere in the Marine Corps.  The closest thing we have to a raider battalion now are the 4 Reconnaissance Battalions.  The raider lineage is the reason that the Recon Battalions are the only units in the Marine Corps authorized to have a skull in their official logo.  A lot of the raider traditions are kept alive in the Reconnaissance community.  Many of these traditions have been carried over to MARSOC because of the heavy 0321 influence in that community.  Many infantry battalions used to maintain boat companies that modeled themselves in the raider tradition (the most famous I think is the Alpha 1/4 Raiders) but the OIF/OEF rotation has changed a lot of that.  The only MEU that currently has a boat company is the 31st MEU.  It's too bad really, I was a boat company guy as a Lieutenant and I loved it.  It may seem to be the most realistic insertion means now a days but I think there is validity to maintaining the capability.


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## 8'Duece (Oct 7, 2009)

Edited, nevermind.  I don't know shit about this.


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## SR-25 (Oct 10, 2009)

The boat companies on MEUs are still designated as "Raiders" and the Amphibious Raid school in Coronado still uses the original Raider logo.


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## SR-25 (Oct 10, 2009)

[YOUTUBE]<object width="425" height="344"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/v/5J1EBLfgfSM&hl=en&fs=1&"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/v/5J1EBLfgfSM&hl=en&fs=1&" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="425" height="344"></embed></object>[/YOUTUBE]


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## Teufel (Oct 10, 2009)

SR-25 said:


> The boat companies on MEUs are still designated as "Raiders" and the Amphibious Raid school in Coronado still uses the original Raider logo.



The MEU boat companies are not designated "Raiders" they call themselves raiders.  The Marine Corps has not officially designated anyone with the Marine Raiders name; the closest thing is when MSOB tried and big Marine Corps shot it down.  By the way, Fox 2/7 didn't go by raiders when they were in Nowzad last year.


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## 0699 (Oct 10, 2009)

Interesting question.

I know the Army maintains lineages of units, so that unit "B" carries on the traditions of unit "A" (For example, I think the SF Regiment carries the lineage of the FSSF) and has a verified relationship.  Does the Corps have anything like that?

I should know this, but...


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## SR-25 (Oct 10, 2009)

I know that Tuefel, I was just throwin it out there


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## SCCO_Marine (Oct 11, 2009)

Most of the Marines of Small Craft Co were fr/the Boat Co of the returning east coast MEU's BLT. We in turn provided the next MEU w/coxswains, then absorbed many of their Marines in the turn over.


Either way there's no tactical mission the WWII Raiders performed that isn't performed by the MEU(SOC)'s Boat Co.

The MEU(SOC)'s Boat Co. is trained & certified by the Special Operations Training Group to perform the mission of Clandestine Amphibious Raid.

Thats purposely by the design of the MEU's Special Operations Capable program creator CMC Gen Al Gray.  He wanted a program that gave him the capability to slip a Co. of Marines behind enemy lines to disrupt Movement & Comm, & thats wht SOTG designed for him.


The Raiders were pioneers in that area, but Det-1 & the MSOCs taking the Raider name would've been symbolic only.  The unit that most mirrors the capability set of the WWII Raiders is the MEU's Amphibous Raid Co.


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## Teufel (Oct 13, 2009)

0699 said:


> Interesting question.
> 
> I know the Army maintains lineages of units, so that unit "B" carries on the traditions of unit "A" (For example, I think the SF Regiment carries the lineage of the FSSF) and has a verified relationship.  Does the Corps have anything like that?
> 
> I should know this, but...



The only unit I know of that has done this is 4th Marines... when the four raider battalions were deactivated, they were re-designated as 4th Marines to carry out the lineage lost in the Philippines when the original regiment was destroyed.  Other than that I know some units have done some name swapping: 1/9 turned into 2/1 in the 90s, 2/4 turned into 2/6 and 2/9 turned into 2/4, 3/9 turned into 3/4....and 9th Marines stood up recently.  I am sure there are some more out there.



SCCO_Marine said:


> Either way there's no tactical mission the WWII Raiders performed that isn't performed by the MEU(SOC)'s Boat Co.
> 
> The MEU(SOC)'s Boat Co. is trained & certified by the Special Operations Training Group to perform the mission of Clandestine Amphibious Raid.
> 
> ...



I agree with you there.  The MEU boat companies perfectly mirror the capabilities of the WWII Raiders.  The reason MARSOC was going to adopt the Raider name is because they maintain the spirit of the raiders.  Marines had to try out for the raiders and pass a strenuous indoc to get in.  There was also additional training they needed to conduct.  This is the biggest difference between the raiders and the modern boat companies.  (I was a boat company guy back in the MEU(SOC) days). DET-1 was Task Unit Raider by the way.  The Raiders were created by direct order of the President to create an American equivalent to the British Commandos.  Originally, the Raiders were going to be called commandos but the Marine Corps at the time didn't want to create a perceived "elite within an elite" which is the same reason HQMC doesn't want MARSOC to have a badge or a special name.


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## SCCO_Marine (Oct 13, 2009)

Teufel said:


> Marines had to try out for the raiders and pass a strenuous indoc to get in.



Yeah thats pretty much the difference btwn the Raiders & the MEU's Boat Co. is an indoc.  But i think its balanced out b/c today's Inf. Marines go thru much more Small Unit Tactics training coming out of SOI.  

Its almost 6mths of training when u combine the 13wks of BC w/the 10wks of ITB to be a basic Rifleman. (I know its currently 59 ITB training days now just unsure of the breakdown by wk).  The WWII regular Infantry just went straight from BC to their Rifle Co. so they would have needed the extra training.

But like i said they were the pioneers of it, we're just all on their backs.


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## SR-25 (Oct 16, 2009)

Actually the Raider tradition is alive and well, every boat company that goes through the EWTGPAC and SOTG Raid Course are Raiders...


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## Teufel (Oct 16, 2009)

SCCO_Marine said:


> Yeah thats pretty much the difference btwn the Raiders & the MEU's Boat Co. is an indoc.  But i think its balanced out b/c today's Inf. Marines go thru much more Small Unit Tactics training coming out of SOI.
> 
> Its almost 6mths of training when u combine the 13wks of BC w/the 10wks of ITB to be a basic Rifleman. (I know its currently 59 ITB training days now just unsure of the breakdown by wk).  The WWII regular Infantry just went straight from BC to their Rifle Co. so they would have needed the extra training.
> 
> But like i said they were the pioneers of it, we're just all on their backs.



AIT for the Raiders was Makin Island.


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## Teufel (Oct 16, 2009)

SR-25 said:


> Actually the Raider tradition is alive and well, every boat company that goes through the EWTGPAC and SOTG Raid Course are Raiders...



The problem is that there is no continuity.  They even shut down the 1st Marines boat house back in 2007.  To use your company as an example, you guys will do the boat course this year and won't see a boat for another four years.  Right now the only guy who has any real boat experience in your company (to my knowledge) is SSgt G and he is TAD to the wounded warrior battalion/EWTGPAC.  Traditions can't survive if they start and stop like that.


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## SR-25 (Oct 17, 2009)

I actually just saw him yesterday. But no we have one more that has experience in a boat company, gunny P.


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## SR-25 (Oct 17, 2009)

And personally I think they should implement a unit that does only amphibious raids. And use them for every MEU, just alternating companies so you get a year or so in between MEUs instead of just tasking a new grunt unit everytime. I think it would make things run a lot smoother and it would be a lot more cost effective. They  wouldn't have to train new companies every few months, just the new guys to the unit and sustainment training. But hey, what do I know?


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## Teufel (Oct 17, 2009)

SR-25 said:


> And personally I think they should implement a unit that does only amphibious raids. And use them for every MEU, just alternating companies so you get a year or so in between MEUs instead of just tasking a new grunt unit everytime. I think it would make things run a lot smoother and it would be a lot more cost effective. They  wouldn't have to train new companies every few months, just the new guys to the unit and sustainment training. But hey, what do I know?



The Marine Corps had a small craft company that would source the east coast MEUs with coxswains and scout swimmers.  The west coast had a boat house that would support the west coast MEUs and both organizations were shut down.  There is a guy here from small craft company, he would know more about it.  

Bravo 1/1, Fox 2/1, India 3/1 and Alpha 1/4 used to be legitimate boat companies from 1st Marines that would rotate through the 11th, 13th and 15th MEUs, and C 1/2, G 2/2, a company from 3/2 (they may have rotated this company, I am not an east coast guy) would rotate through the 22nd, 24th and 26th.  5th Marines and 7th Marines would source the 31st MEU (and UDP cycle) but since the rotation for one MEU was split between two regiments it wasn't as consistent as it was with 1st Marines.  The most famous "raider" companies are Alpha 1/4 and Golf 2/2; they have kept the name and tradition throughout their MEU and OIF rotations.  Most of the other boat companies will adopt it when they go through EWTGPAC and drop it when they do an OIF pump.

The decision was made in 2006 to drop the small craft mission from the west coast and east coast MEUs because there really hasn't been a need for it.  We have used helos and tracks frequently but never boats.  I could see uses for them but I guess the Marine Corps decided that all that money and training would be better spent training Marines in something else like live fire and maneuver etc.  I can certainly see their point as many MEUs have ditched their ships and gone ashore to Iraq or Afghanistan.  I personally think the shared misery of cold water small boat operations forms a stronger unit but then again I don't have eagles or stars on my collar.  Alpha 1/4 was probably the strongest company out of 1/4 in Nasariyih and Najaf, and I think it has a lot to do with their raider pride and the cohesiveness that you normally see in a boat company.  The 31st MEU kept the CRRCs because of all the bilateral training they do with them and all the islands that they could use them on.


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## SCCO_Marine (Oct 17, 2009)

Teufel said:


> I personally think the shared misery of cold water small boat operations forms a stronger unit but then again I don't have eagles or stars on my collar.



Fuuuugh yeah... the NC intercoastal, Mile Hammocks, & just off Onslow Beach doing capsized CRRC drills in February can't beat it!!

Its blows but it pumps you up, something about shared misery.


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