# Islam: What the West Needs to Know (Docu)



## TH15 (Jan 10, 2012)

I just got done watching this thing, its sort of like the documentary in the sticky. It's very, very dry (mainly just interviews), but gave a very detailed history on Islam and the violence and domination that has come with it since its inception. I found  a few things in here quite disturbing, such as the prophet Muhammad personally executing up to 900 people.

I think it does a good job of taking today's Islam and comparing it with previous/ancient generations of Islam. Certainly a lot of similarities.

One of the interviewees is a former PLO operative who converted to Christianity.


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## HOLLiS (Jan 10, 2012)

People make any religion what it is.   There are a lot of variations to Islam, as there are with the other religions of the world.  Strong adherence to any faith is a minority.    There are a lot of people who are members of any religion out of convenience or in name only.   It is not a black and white subject,  anything with people in it is convoluted at best.


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## pardus (Jan 10, 2012)

That is a great doco.

Islam is inherently evil, we are just lucky that most Muslims don't follow the teachings of Islam to the letter.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 11, 2012)

All religions got those seeds of evil in em, and sadly man's wish to believe in the divine or those that say they speak for the divine clouds their minds far too often. I've met many a good Muslim, and many a bad one. Perrsonally it's the uber right wing Christian fundamentalists that scare me more these days lol! Should watch "Jesus Camp" and see if you don't disagree with me. You could put those kids and preachers in man dresses and replace their bible talk with Koran talk and you'd not be able to tell the difference, truly scary.


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## AWP (Jan 11, 2012)

JohnnyBoyUSMC said:


> All religions got those seeds of evil in em, and sadly man's wish to believe in the divine or those that say they speak for the divine clouds their minds far too often. I've met many a good Muslim, and many a bad one. Perrsonally it's the uber right wing Christian fundamentalists that scare me more these days lol! Should watch "Jesus Camp" and see if you don't disagree with me. You could put those kids and preachers in man dresses and replace their bible talk with Koran talk and you'd not be able to tell the difference, truly scary.


 
While I have no use for religion, I must have missed all of those right-wing Christians who are strapping explosives to themselves and killing women and children by the scores, cutting off heads, trying to kill me and those like me on a daily basis, placing rape victims in jail, having sex with boys and animals, etc.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 11, 2012)

We all missed it, happened a lot in the middle ages lol! No I agree freefalling, Christians aren't doing that here, and I have no use for religion either, just making the point that every religion has its nut jobs, though Islam deff has more of em who are willing to go boom in the name of Allah. Sad thing is a lot of it is from ignorance and the plying of easily manipulated minds by the shot callers that gets plenty of em on the band wagon.


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## AWP (Jan 11, 2012)

JohnnyBoyUSMC said:


> We all missed it, happened a lot in the middle ages lol!


 
Not picking on you, Johnny, just a minor rant along these lines:

I am sick and tired of comparing XXXXX to "back in Medieval times" or whatever. Shit, "back in the day" my family owned slaves, so if we're going to use the "They did it hundreds of years ago so that justifies YYYY doing it now" argument then I know how I can get out of doing yardwork...

"A thousands years ago...." Please, a thousand years ago people thought that the sun revolved around the earth and even motherfarking Galileo ran afoul of the Catholic Church over it. This centuries old bullshit justification for any group's actions is more fucked up than a football bat. I love history, I love my family's history, but I don't cling to it and citing events from hundreds or even thousands of years ago to justify one's actions today is just stupid.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 11, 2012)

In agreement with ya Freefalling, and know your not picking one me, just using history as a context to show that religious, especially the uneducated and fanatic, can be pushed to do all sorts of horrible shit, hence why i'm not a religious man anymore. Hell one can go back far enough and blame a germ on their problems. The video i've watched and is informative, and one can do almost the same thing to nearly any religious text. Guess my point is, religion makes people crazy, and kill all of em that fuck with me and mine.


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## HOLLiS (Jan 11, 2012)

Freefalling in some ways that area is like time stood still.     Maybe we need to teach them baseball like the Nigarittos in the Philippines.


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## pardus (Jan 11, 2012)

JohnnyBoyUSMC said:


> In agreement with ya Freefalling, and know your not picking one me, just using history as a context to show that religious, especially the uneducated and fanatic, can be pushed to do all sorts of horrible shit, .


 
What you're missing is that Christianity (I'm not Christian) teaches peace and love and obedience etc... When Christians have gone nuts in the past and used their religion to cause harm it is generally against what the bible teaches.
Islam however is guided by the Koran which orders Muslims to convert or kill every single person on the planet. It also advocates having sex with children. This is Islamic law that Muslims are obliged to do.

So there is a huge difference between the two religions in that regard. No comparison.


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## QC (Jan 11, 2012)

http://www.hudson.org/files/pdf_upload/saudi_textbooks_final.pdf

I'm currently reading this PDF. Interesting and I should add that one guy I know who has been on the Haj a couple of times hates Saudis with a passion.


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## Manolito (Jan 11, 2012)

If the four of you met in Berkely California and dressed in some odd way and stood on the corner of University avenue and preached about anything call it the revival of the carrot you would have followers within minutes and people preaching the carrot within a week. Some people need a entity to direct them down the path of life and if you tell them they are touched by the special carrot it would scare you what they would do for you. We apparently have been killing each other since the cave days. Come to think of it we have gotten pretty good at that one part of history. I think there is a very strong connection from what islamm does and what Hitler did. Hell today you can have the moral being of an animal and you are accepted. However if you smoke those evil ciggs they want to ban you from the park.
Free I hear your rant and respect it. In my thoughts there are a lot of examples today we don't need to go back more than 75 years.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 11, 2012)

JohnnyBoyUSMC said:


> We all missed it, happened a lot in the middle ages lol! No I agree freefalling, Christians aren't doing that here, and I have no use for religion either, just making the point that every religion has its nut jobs, though Islam deff has more of em who are willing to go boom in the name of Allah. Sad thing is a lot of it is from ignorance and the plying of easily manipulated minds by the shot callers that gets plenty of em on the band wagon.


 
Then why even bring it up?  If Islam is bad, then it's bad; it's not "less bad" because of the shortcomings of other religions.  That kind of apologist and moral-equivalizing behavior is very dangerous.


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## alibi (Jan 11, 2012)

pardus said:


> What you're missing is that Christianity (I'm not Christian) teaches peace and love and obedience etc... When Christians have gone nuts in the past and used their religion to cause harm it is generally against what the bible teaches.
> Islam however is guided by the Koran which orders Muslims to convert or kill every single person on the planet. It also advocates having sex with children. This is Islamic law that Muslims are obliged to do.
> 
> So there is a huge difference between the two religions in that regard. No comparison.


Unless you wanna throw out the Old Testament and parts of the New, there are multiple instances in the Bible where the use of genocide is explicitly endorsed. One of the most prominent stories in the entire work is about a guy killing his son because a voice in his head told him to, but stopping when another voice told him to stop. There are verses which argue that slaves be obedient to their masters. There are verses that tell women to submit themselves to their husbands.

Are there good theological explanations for the above? Yes, I believe so. Could the same be said for Islam? Probably.

I guess, speaking for myself, that I don't like to label ideologies "good" or "evil". Right and wrong, sure.


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## QC (Jan 11, 2012)

alibi said:


> Unless you wanna throw out the Old Testament and parts of the New, there are multiple instances in the Bible where the use of genocide is explicitly endorsed. One of the most prominent stories in the entire work is about a guy killing his son because a voice in his head told him to, but stopping when another voice told him to stop. There are verses which argue that slaves be obedient to their masters. There are verses that tell women to submit themselves to their husbands.
> 
> Are there good theological explanations for the above? Yes, I believe so. Could the same be said for Islam? Probably.
> 
> I guess, speaking for myself, that I don't like to label ideologies "good" or "evil". Right and wrong, sure.


I guess you're referring to Abraham here, a common denominator in both. To me, the differences are basic on two points. Firstly,as I've observed, you open yourself to accept Jesus into you life as compared to submission to God, two different paths. Second, the Koran teaches that Islam is superior and so are it's adherents. I can't recall Christian religions of any hue teaching that one.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 11, 2012)

this is EXACTLY why I prefer to not argue religion or politics with people lol! look everyone brings good points to the table, and there is no one argument to win em all (yes lord of the rings analogy give me crap for it if ya want), simple point is there are always those on both sides of every religion, good or bad. i'm not being an apoligist or morality equalizer about anything Marauder, again just using history as a context to show that evil has been done in the name of religion many times, thats all. there is no moral equalizing going on, I just simply don't condemn a entire race or religion as "evil" because of some dusty words in books or the actions of a minority of that sect or religion.


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## alibi (Jan 11, 2012)

QC said:


> I guess you're referring to Abraham here, a common denominator in both. To me, the differences are basic on two points. Firstly,as I've observed, you open yourself to accept Jesus into you life as compared to submission to God, two different paths. Second, the Koran teaches that Islam is superior and so are it's adherents. I can't recall Christian religions of any hue teaching that one.


I think it comes down more to semantics; I can recall going to various Christians services where the term "Submission to God" (Plus or minus some adjectives) has been used quite frequently. 
Secondly, I would argue that if one believes Christianity (Or Islam, or Hinduism, or Judaism) one believes that it is a superior belief system.  As to the adherents being better...I think it depends on who you talk to.


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## TH15 (Jan 11, 2012)

The only problems I have with religion come from the higher ups in that particular religion. I find that they overwhelmingly corrupt what is meant to be a very positive thing for a lot of people, including myself. 

I just wonder what the general consensus is in the Middle East in regards to your "average" Muslim. Based on the recent elections, it seems to me that the average Muslim in the M.E and North Africa adheres to the kind of Islam that we're all talking about here.

Documentaries like this really make me question Ron Paul's (Sorry Free) ideology that our foreign policy is the root cause of Islamic terrorism.


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## AWP (Jan 11, 2012)

TH15 said:


> The only problems I have with religion come from the higher ups in that particular religion. I find that they overwhelmingly corrupt what is meant to be a very positive thing for a lot of people, including myself.
> 
> I just wonder what the general consensus is in the Middle East in regards to your "average" Muslim. Based on the recent elections, it seems to me that the average Muslim in the M.E and North Africa adheres to the kind of Islam that we're all talking about here.
> 
> Documentaries like this really make me question Ron Paul's (Sorry Free) ideology that our foreign policy is the root cause of Islamic terrorism.


 
I'd like to touch upon a few things in this post so I'm glad you mentioned them.

Take any insurgency, poorly run company, or relationship where domestic violence is present...in short, just about any type of conflict you can think of. In all of them there is a certain amount of passivity by one or more of the "sides" or populace. You'll have those people who oppose the negative acts taking place, but they stick their heads in the sand and ignore them. Some may resist, but most will just act like nothign is wrong. That may be out of apathy or fear or a pragmatic view of the situation, but whatever the reasons or causes, there is a passive element involved.

That is how the strong prey upon the weak. That is how a minority can control a majority. When the masses fail to reject the extreme elements of their organization they've become as guilty as the extremists themselves. Morally, ethically, or legally, they are playing a role in perpetuating those negative behaviors. So whether or not the mass of Muslims agree with the extremists is irrelevant to me, they support them and that is aiding and abetting in our court system.

With regard to Ron Paul, he is right and he is wrong. I think he's oversimplified the root cause of Islamic terrorism. While he may be correct on some levels, he's way off base on others. Besides, even IF our FP caused islamic terrorism, in how many instances did we have other options? UBL and company continuously cited our presence in Saudi Arabia as their motivation; whether that is their true belief or just an excuse doesn't matter. They cite coups like Iran's in 53, but neglect to mention the UK's role and neglect to mention that essentially once the Shah was punted in 79 that we were equal in Iran. They overlook other equally disasterous moments in American foreign policy and the fact that the wronged in those cases didn't rise up and start sliting throats. Some people just need to hate and I think that's part of what we have here.

Humans tend to oversimplify anyway. In US history, the Revolutionary and Civil Wars were about "taxation without representation" and "slavery" respectively, right? Of course not, they were much more complex than that. Ron Paul is dumbing down his reasons, or maybe he believes them, and in either case I'm insulted or amazed that someone who claims to be smart is actually a window-licker.

Besides, the GWOT is about 1000 years overdue in my opinion, not because of our religion or politics, but because of the Islamic religion and/ or politics.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 11, 2012)

Yea, totally agree with Freefalling on all of it. I'm not one to be like "all muslims are evil" but that passive "not my problem" attitude most of em have drives me insane. The fact that Islam is both a religion AND a political system that cannot be separated makes it inherently dangerous, as we all know mixing politics and religion always has bad consequences for most everyone involved save for the "true believers". Islam is a religion based on militant dominance started by basically a warlord who "heard the voice of God". Again, history. Is that to say we'll see the rise of militant Christianity like in the dark days? Doubt it, but anything is possible I suppose.....I mean Rick Santorum and Mitt Romney wanna ban all porn if they get elected because of their sense of Christian duty, so we COULD be in trouble lol!

Are all Muslims evil people who wish death on us all? No a lot are simply living their lives. Does their religion tell em to do so? Yea, just about every religion has that context somewhere in it, just more prevalent at the time because it's Muslims that are doing so much in the sense of murder for God, which is itself a stupid concept. Does history teach us that Islam has mainly been spread through conquering of others, and that it is what is taught to them to do? Yep! Is the GWOT overdue? You bet your ass. It has been a long time coming, though with budget cuts, troop drawdowns, and a sense of risk aversion that the current political establishment is starting to show, it could be at our shores if we don't keep the pressure up. Hence why I buy ammo and plenty of it.


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## TH15 (Jan 11, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Whole post.


That was an awesome post, thank you. I never really thought of how UBL and his followers do single out the United States. However, the UK is experiencing a growing Islamist threat.

Islam is certainly (can be) very violent and I think Americans get caught up in the American brand of Islam, which is a completely different animal than Middle Eastern/N. African/Indonesion Islam. I think its mostly the media's fault and people like Harry Reid who go on the Senate floor and tell stories of American Muslims who are good people. That's not to say they aren't good people, but the fact is they are in America and not in a position to practice the religion the way it was intended to be practiced, perhaps. The more I get into reading about the Koran and the Hadith and the Surah, the more it seems, to me at least, that the people we call radical aren't really radical at all- they're doing exactly what these books tell them to do.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 11, 2012)

Their fundamentalists, the very defenition of by the book, so if anything their the most Puritan, true practicers of the faith. I've heard of the UK problems with Islam, especially their ability to basically strong arm the justice system to allow certain courts to let communities practice sharia law, The infamous finsbury park mosque, and so forth. It's a few years old now but read "londistan", good book.

The difference with muslims in America and with the rest of the world is that many choose to accept and adapt to American society instead of the other way around, though there are plenty who would wish they could do what's happening in the UK, CAIR anyone (hate those fuckers).

 Is there a Islamic boogie man hiding behind every corner? Nah, but AQ isn't defeated just yet, and the surge of wins for islamitists parties in many countries from the Arab spring should have us all worried. Here at home, until things start blowing up or the shores are being invaded by the hoardes, I'll worry about the Christian fundamentalists who wanna ban porn, protest military funerals, tell us all we're going to hell, and bang on ur door at 6am asking if you've found Jesus


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## TH15 (Jan 11, 2012)

CAIR can go fuck themselves. I know a lot of Muslims in America practice Sharia in their household. No problem with that. However, I live 30 minutes from Dearborn, MI- the city with the highest concentration of Muslims in the country. (Ironically, a Holocaust Museum is nearby ). Recently the state tried to pass a law banning Sharia law here and the fuckers went nuts. I have a problem with that. I mean, I can see why their upset because they probably view it as an attack on their religion. But they know damn well they live in America. You can't have your cake and eat it too.

In regards to the UK, I've read where there's places where Sharia is fully in place and law enforcement just stays out of the way out of fear of retaliation.
Here's a Brit's recent take on it:
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/2819217/posts

And here's what I was talking about in regards to Sharia in UK cities:
http://www.theblaze.com/stories/you...d-zone-uk-group-to-wage-islamic-law-campaign/


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## pardus (Jan 12, 2012)

alibi said:


> Unless you wanna throw out the Old Testament and parts of the New, there are multiple instances in the Bible where the use of genocide is explicitly endorsed. One of the most prominent stories in the entire work is about a guy killing his son because a voice in his head told him to, but stopping when another voice told him to stop. There are verses which argue that slaves be obedient to their masters. There are verses that tell women to submit themselves to their husbands.
> 
> Are there good theological explanations for the above? Yes, I believe so. Could the same be said for Islam? Probably.
> 
> I guess, speaking for myself, that I don't like to label ideologies "good" or "evil". Right and wrong, sure.


 
The New Testament supersedes the old in Christianity, and I specifically said Christianity. Show me where in the New Testament it advocates genocide.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 12, 2012)

Hate the sharia law crap, hell wish I could make up a religion and enforce my own moral and ethical code in my neighborhood then scream religious persecution when the cops shut me down


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## Marauder06 (Jan 12, 2012)

pardus said:


> The New Testament supersedes the old in Christianity, and I specifically said Christianity. Show me where in the New Testament it advocates genocide.


 
That's correct. There is no equivalent of the New Testament in Islam, even though some will try to say that the later hadith supercede the earlier passages of the Koran. It's simply not practiced. And since most serious studiers and practitioners of Islam will tell you that
the "gates" to further interpretation of Islam are closed, then its unlikely that a revisionist, truly peaceful version of Islam will come about anytime soon, and the entire world will continue to pay the price for it.

I would also like to add to what Pardus said that it's predictable that any discussion of Islam degenerates into finger-pointing towards other religions, particularly Christianity, because that's a typical device of the uneducated and the apologists. Can't argue the fundamental premise? Admit nothing, deny everything, and make counteraccusations. If attacking Christianity doesn't work (and when you're debating people like Freefalling, Pardus, and me, who are well-educated on both Islam and Christianity but who consider ourselves neither Christian nor Muslim, it never will work), then it's time to roll out the "-ists" (i.e. "racists") or the "-phobes" (e.g. "islamophobe"). That almost always works to shut down the debate. It's very hard to have a meaningful debate about Islam because most people aren't really educated on it or people are scared to talk about it because of the very real physical and/or career-related consequences of speaking out.

Look, I used to buy into the "religion of peace" argument too, until a couple of things happened: 1) I actually read the Koran (sorry, I mean "the meaning of the Koran" since I can't read Arabic) and its associated works; 2) I deployed seven times to Iraq and Afghanistan, and regularly got to review the material we captured on objectives and the interviews/interrogations of the locals; 3) I actually bothered to read, research, and come to my own conclusions instead of blindly believing what my college professors or some talking head on television told me to believe (this was the most important).

I think a lot of people believe the "religion of peace" argument because they desperately want it to be true, and can't fathom the possibility of something different. Admitting that Islam is not a religion of peace doesn't make you a bad person, and it doesn't make Islam a bad religion. It is simply a recognition of truth. I don't think anyone on this site is advocating for the destruction of Islam or its adherents, but at the same time, we can't go around blindly misinterpreting the obvious. Islam was created and spread by the sword, and that tradition continues. I'm quite happy to have peaceful co-existence with anyone and anything, but when that option is not reciprocated, it gives me pause. This is a war of inches, it won't happen overnight but I don't want my children or grandchildren to wake up one morning and find that their only options are conversion, dhimmitude, or death. And if you think that isnt' the overall goal of Islam as a whole, you're wrong.

Dead wrong.


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## pardus (Jan 12, 2012)

JohnnyBoyUSMC said:


> Hate the sharia law crap, hell wish I could make up a religion and enforce my own moral and ethical code in my neighborhood then scream religious persecution when the cops shut me down


 
Go for it. L Ron Hubbard did.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 12, 2012)

Best watch it pardus, you best have a strong legal team making fun of Scientology like that 

Totally agree with Marauder in the whole "its a religion of peace is BS" as I did the same he did and had similar experiences. Personally, and i'm not TRYING to bash on Christianity in any sense, but one can use the "new testament over-rules the old" argument and at times i'd agree, then again you have plenty who say that and then mean "oh, well except for the hate the gays, the commandments, and the psalms parts, those are still legit". You really can't pick and choose which parts of a religious text your gonna follow, its hypocritical and narrow minded. Same goes with Islam, you can't go "oh well we'll just follow the nice teachings of the prophet", again short sighted and hypocritical. Same goes for just about every religious book out there, though there are plenty who do just that!

One thing most people don't understand about Islam and what seems to back up the mis-informed perception that its a religion of peace is that The Koran isn't just the only religious text that guides muslims, there are the hadith's.

The islamic practice of abrogation (or Naskh): It is a term used in Islamic legal exegesis for seemingly contradictory material within or between the twin bases of Islamic holy law: the Qur'ān and the Prophetic Sunna. Since the writings of the Koran can be broken up into two different parts, meca (the writings for when the Muhammed lived there and started his religion, living in peace with the other religious groups and writing of peace and love and all that), and medinna (the writings that came later after him and his followers had been forced into the desert, expanded their army and became warlords, and when all the kill the infidels and such writings came from), then you have contradictory writings. Abrogation states that if you have two conflicting writings like that in the Koran, the ones that came later in Muhammed's life over-rule the earlier writings. So in basic terms, the kill infidels and spread the faith by the sword writings over-rule the lets live in peace with the Christians and Jews writings. 

Since most people don't bother to research shit and just take their professor's and the corporate controlled media's word on everything, then people don't get it.

Again, not all Muslims are evil and follow all the teachings of the Koran, in fact a lot don't even know what a lot of it literally says since it's written in ancient arabic and very little people can read it let alone write it, not to count illiteracy and thinking the Imam know's best. Then again not all Christians are good, wholesome, loving people. Westboro is proof of that enough, not to mention all the "you dance and listen to music, your going to hell!" types.

If people would actually LEARN shit and live their lives instead of following hypocritical writings in old all books, we'd all be a lot better off. Till then, we kill all those fuckers as best we can!


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## AWP (Jan 12, 2012)

Every time I read or hear the "not all Muslims are bad people" argument I want to throw up.


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## alibi (Jan 12, 2012)

pardus said:


> The New Testament supersedes the old in Christianity, and I specifically said Christianity. Show me where in the New Testament it advocates genocide.


I would say that the OT holds the same weight as the NT in Christianity;  I'm coming from a Catholic background, so any supposed changes from the OT to the NT are done in order to correct poor interpretations drawn from the OT.

My intent (And it was poor) was to say that the NT endorses the OT; as such, I view them linked, so what I probably should have said is that you would need to throw away verses in the New Testament that specifically refer to the Old Testament in order to square it away.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 12, 2012)

My first Iraq tour back in 04 we had a translator, Mo, was born Iraqi but fled the country after Saddam took power and lived in the US as a citizen until the invasion, then went back to be a translator because he wanted to help his people and his adopted country. He was a muslim (not uber devot but a religious man trying to live a good life) and a family man. IED killed him and severely wounded a fellow Marine four months into the tour. I had suffered a injury recently and was regulated to HQ duties while I recovered and it fell to me to pack his things up after his death. Found pictures of his wife and kids, damn near killed me to see that. THAT man is one of the reasons why I say not all Muslims are bad people. He died not only wanting to help his people, but help serve his adopted country in the capacity he did. I take that into consideration and urge others to remember and do the same in regards to others.


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## pardus (Jan 12, 2012)

alibi said:


> I would say that the OT holds the same weight as the NT in Christianity; I'm coming from a Catholic background, so any supposed changes from the OT to the NT are done in order to correct poor interpretations drawn from the OT.
> 
> My intent (And it was poor) was to say that the NT endorses the OT; as such, I view them linked, so what I probably should have said is that you would need to throw away verses in the New Testament that specifically refer to the Old Testament in order to square it away.


 
This is just going to get bogged down and I'm not interested in that so all I'll say is that I disagree with your view.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 12, 2012)

its already bogged down pardus, it always does with religion, no one ever wins. i'm pretty well done with this thread, said my part. was a good philosophical and moral debate to be sure, and I enjoy seeing other's points of view and having a good intellectual conversation with others. contrary to popular belief, the Corps does produce a few free thinking, intellectual,  out of the box types, and personally that's the type of warrior I aspire to be and would wanna have around me any day of the week......hmmmm, could THAT be part of the reason i'm committed to going SOF? plot thickens.....dun dun duuuuuuunnnnnn!!! :)


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## QC (Jan 12, 2012)

Im curious, how many here debate these points we've talked about with Muslims?


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## pardus (Jan 12, 2012)

QC said:


> Im curious, how many here debate these points we've talked about with Muslims?


 
I don't see a lot of point in it when you consider Taqiyya.


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## QC (Jan 12, 2012)

pardus said:


> I don't see a lot of point in it when you consider Taqiyya.



Good point and I take that into consideration. I've also pressed the guys I've debated with and learnt that the " we are all Muslim brothers" is a steaming pile. One in particular has been an absolute source of hilarity as we both give each other heaps of abuse. But I take them on not to be an arsehole but because I want get their point of view and understand it. My sig line hasn't altered.


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## Headshot (Jan 12, 2012)

We (Americans) live in a nation that was formed for the most part on the religious grounds that the tyrants trying to make people believe a certain way were dead wrong and were stood up against.  That was then and should still be the same now.  Read my sig line and it will explain this entire philosophy to wit.


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## Th3 Maelstr0m (Jan 12, 2012)

QC said:


> Im curious, how many here debate these points we've talked about with Muslims?


 
I wouldn't say I debate them as much as I am still currently unconvinced. 

I say that mainly because I am only 25 & it has only been within the past year that I have actively & regularly researched Islam. Most of my current knowledge comes from a few religion classes, & an Islamic Civ course (taught by a Vietnam SF vet). I've read the Quran, the Hadiths, some al-Ghazzali, & a few Middle East history books- which means I don't consider myself educated enough to have a definitive opinion.

I do enjoy reading threads on this topic however, as it gives me the opportunity to compare the opinions of those wiser than I.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 12, 2012)

QC said:


> Im curious, how many here debate these points we've talked about with Muslims?


 
I don't really think I need to debate something I've seen with my own eyes.  That said, I would certainly welcome the opportunity but I don't think I'd get any takers.  At least not ones who would be willing to have a meaningful discussion without it devolving into what I described above.


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## TH15 (Jan 12, 2012)

QC said:


> Im curious, how many here debate these points we've talked about with Muslims?


I'm not sure you could call it a debate, but I've discussed some of the things in here with my Arabic professor who is Tunisian and a Muslim. I get the sense (honestly) that he tries to come across as an "American Muslim" to Americans. What I mean by that is he comes across as very open to other religions, except Judaism. I've tried to get him to talk about the Jewish-Muslim rift multiple times and each time I have been shut down. So, it's very clear to me there is something very real there. He says he understands he is in a predominantly Christian nation. He consistently makes "jokes" about profiling Muslims. For example,
"Make sure you don't take your Arabic books to the airport."
"Ah the United States...freedom of religion...unless you appear to be Arab"(he will purposefully pronounce it Aayy-rab).
If a female raises her hand to answer a question, "I guess I will let the woman have a voice..."

In regards to people like AQ, he has pretty much condemned them for killing other Muslims, but seems to think (or implies that) its okay for them to attack foreigners because we are in their land.

So I find a lot of contradictions in what he says/does. It is my own personal opinion that he adheres to a very strict interpretation of Islam.


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## Th3 Maelstr0m (Jan 12, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> I don't really think I need to debate something I've seen with my own eyes. That said, I would certainly welcome the opportunity but I don't think I'd get any takers. At least not ones who would be willing to have a meaningful discussion without it devolving into what I described above.


 
I wouldn't mind engaging you on this. I don't think it would classify as a debate as much as me putting forth the little I have learned thus far & having you give a rebuttal. I am welcome to issues that challenge or refute whatever I currently believe. Another thread would probably be called for, if you are still interested, & I wouldn't be able to really start it until this weekend since I have an Arabic quiz tomorrow along w/ 100 pages of reading for my Historical Research & Theory class, & my study abroad essay I'm trying to finish up.

I think it would be a great opportunity for myself personally, & probably for other guys my age who have not had the time or experience to gather the info you have.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 12, 2012)

Th3 Maelstr0m said:


> I wouldn't mind engaging you on this. I don't think it would classify as a debate as much as me putting forth the little I have learned thus far & having you give a rebuttal. I am welcome to issues that challenge or refute whatever I currently believe. Another thread would probably be called for, & if you are still interested, & I wouldn't be able to really start it until this weekend since I have an Arabic quiz tomorrow along w/ 100 pages of reading for my Historical Research & Theory class, & my study abroad essay I'm trying to finish up.
> 
> I think it would be a great opportunity for myself personally, & probably for other guys my age who have not had the time or experience to gather the info you have.


 
Sure, we can have a discussion, I think that would be both entertaining and useful.  Start a thread whenever you're ready.


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## Th3 Maelstr0m (Jan 12, 2012)

I have my International Relations class in a few minutes, but I'll throw it up sometime tomorrow night when I get back from class. Thanks for the opportunity!


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## Marauder06 (Jan 12, 2012)

One more thing before you go- I'm trying to get an international relations-focused conference together, make your school pay for you to come here and we can argue about it in person, over a beer in one of the downtown New Haven pubs ;)


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## QC (Jan 12, 2012)

If you can, talk to ME people who aren't Muslims, they have an interesting take on it.
Did I mention Saudis are shits?
http://m.theaustralian.com.au/news/...ome-to-melbourne/story-e6frg6nf-1226243204214


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 12, 2012)

i'd be down for that Marauder, I always did enjoy a good debate!


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## Marauder06 (Jan 12, 2012)

JohnnyBoyUSMC said:


> i'd be down for that Marauder, I always did enjoy a good debate!


 
OK then, I'll go ahead and start a new thread on the subject to get everything going.  After that one gets going, I'll kill off all the related posts in this thread.


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## Th3 Maelstr0m (Jan 12, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> One more thing before you go- I'm trying to get an international relations-focused conference together, make your school pay for you to come here and we can argue about it in person, over a beer in one of the downtown New Haven pubs ;)


I am most certainly down with that- even if the school doesn't pay for it.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 12, 2012)

Th3 Maelstr0m said:


> I am most certainly down with that- even if the school doesn't pay for it.


 
OK I'll keep you posted.

The "debate" thread is up:   https://shadowspear.com/vb/threads/discuss-and-debate-islam-is-a-religion-of-peace.12898/  game on!


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