# Optics & Iron Sights



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 12, 2018)

I'm being cheap and looking for affirmation to do so. If you are using an optic on your AR (scope, rmr, dot, etc) are you using backup iron sights? For me it's always been a no brainer to have them, no batteries, no fluff and I qualified on irons so that makes my dick that much bigger. It seem like a logical insurance plan should the zombies attack and batteries are in short supply.

Just looking for opinions.


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## Kraut783 (Feb 12, 2018)

Yep, my LWRC came with quality flip up sights...a bit expensive if you buy them seperately.

But if your looking for economical but quality back up sights...look at Magpul @ $75

https://www.amazon.com/Magpul-Industries-Front-Backup-Sight/dp/B077XTJ94J


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## policemedic (Feb 12, 2018)

If this rifle is intended for serious social purposes then absolutely buy the irons to supplement the optic.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 13, 2018)

I figured you guys would be in favor of BUIS. Well there goes another 400$$.


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## Devildoc (Feb 13, 2018)

All mine are traditional M4 carbine-profile with A2 sights and a fixed rear sight.  Half the time I don't even turn the Aimpoint on.  The only exception is a recce with folding BUIS.  But EVERY rifle has iron sights.


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## 256 (Feb 13, 2018)

My county rifle has an EOtech and magnifier. Doesn’t leave a whole lot of room for back ups. Certain I could squeeze them in there, I probably should. The Surefire batteries do great in cold weather, so I’m not overly worried about it. Depends, if you are getting ready the zombies backups would be a good idea. OCONUS it would probably be a good idea too. I don’t see any situation where they’d be bad to have. Just buy an ELCAN, they are nice AND affordable!


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 13, 2018)

I run the EOtech on one of mine and the Troy fit under the magnifer nicely.
Troy BUIS

Whats your opinions on the 45 degree offset BUIS?
45 Degree BUIS


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## 256 (Feb 13, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> I run the EOtech on one of mine and the Troy fit under the magnifer nicely.
> Troy BUIS
> 
> Whats your opinions on the 45 degree offset BUIS?
> 45 Degree BUIS



I honestly don’t have any experience with them, sorry. I don’t see why they wouldn’t work, key being rotating the weapon. Sounds like common sense, I know...haha


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## 256 (Feb 13, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> I run the EOtech on one of mine and the Troy fit under the magnifer nicely.
> Troy BUIS
> 
> Whats your opinions on the 45 degree offset BUIS?
> 45 Degree BUISView attachment 21448


 

Yep, fits perfect under there. I better throw some on.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 13, 2018)

@256 your photo both amuses & confuses me...


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## 256 (Feb 13, 2018)

I’ll explain my humor. I’ve seen some SWAT dudes do some things that just blow my mind. Specifically with those 45 offsets. I watched one of our dudes put them on his AR, not rotate the weapon and attempt to use them. Amoung other goofy stuff I watch them do. I’m not a tactical genius by any means. The meme came from an 18E buddy of mine when I told him I was on the SWAT team. Lol


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## Devildoc (Feb 13, 2018)

Sorry, every time I think about those 45 degree/offset sights, I think of this:


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## 256 (Feb 13, 2018)

I’ve never seen that before! Haha


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 13, 2018)

Those would be AWESOME!!!


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## Muppet (Feb 13, 2018)

My Daniel Defense, M4V11, I use an Aimpoint PRO with back up Troy, flip rears, fixed front.

M.


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## x SF med (Feb 14, 2018)

On my FN I use the iron sights...  and hit at 300m.  I'm looking for a bolt cover rail mount for glass on it.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 14, 2018)

x SF med said:


> On my FN I use the iron sights...  and hit at 300m.  I'm looking for a bolt cover rail mount for glass on it.



Is it an FAL?


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## x SF med (Feb 14, 2018)

Yup, 





Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> Is it an FAL?



mid 1970's issue, inch model, Para in semi ...  cherry, all matching serial numbers.  The bolt cover assembly is available, I just need to purchase it.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 14, 2018)

Bolt Cover


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 14, 2018)

I asked this question because I am putting together an AR with a Trijicon AccuPoint TR25-C-200095 scope. I had a set of the Magpul Pro BUIS in the parts bin and mounted them under the scope to see how they would fit. While the BUIS fit perfect the scope (mounted in a GG&G mount with a quick release) it would have to be removed in order to engage with the irons should the scope shit the bed. Of course I knew this would be the case.

With the addational information do you still feel BUIS would be an asset on this rig? This is my first scope on this type of rifle.


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## policemedic (Feb 14, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> I asked this question because I am putting together an AR with a Trijicon AccuPoint TR25-C-200095 scope. I had a set of the Magpul Pro BUIS in the parts bin and mounted them under the scope to see how they would fit. While the BUIS fit perfect the scope (mounted in a GG&G mount with a quick release) it would have to be removed in order to engage with the irons should the scope shit the bed. Of course I knew this would be the case.
> 
> With the addational information do you still feel BUIS would be an asset on this rig? This is my first scope on this type of rifle.



What are you going to be using this rifle for? You never said.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 14, 2018)

Just target shooting/defense. Guns, reloading, and prepping are my hobbies. I am in no way a Pew Pew Professional.


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## 256 (Feb 14, 2018)

I think the only application where you’d use your irons is if your Trijicon fails; dropped, takes rounds, whatever. If that happens you’d take the optic off anyways and you could shift to your irons. With that optic you’re not necessarily worried about battery failures. Unless I’m not understanding. I’d run the irons like you have them, they aren’t hurting anything. Weight is a nominal issue, to me.


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## policemedic (Feb 14, 2018)

My opinion is that it’s a fine scope for target use and certain more kinetic uses.  However, it has drawbacks if used in a CQB setting (I’m showing my age with that term, methinks).

There are options for mounting irons at an offset or a second optic like an RMR as a backup/close range sight. 

Honestly, you should determine what the rifle will be used for most of the time.  If it’s going to be primarily a target gun, set it up for that. Mission drives the gear train.


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## policemedic (Feb 14, 2018)

256 said:


> I think the only application where you’d use your irons is if your Trijicon fails; dropped, takes rounds, whatever. If that happens you’d take the optic off anyways and you could shift to your irons. With that optic you’re not necessarily worried about battery failures. Unless I’m not understanding. I’d run the irons like you have them, they aren’t hurting anything. Weight is a nominal issue, to me.



What I understood him to mean was that he couldn’t extend the BUIS with the scope mounted.  Essentially, that leaves him with no BUIS.


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## 256 (Feb 15, 2018)

policemedic said:


> What I understood him to mean was that he couldn’t extend the BUIS with the scope mounted.  Essentially, that leaves him with no BUIS.



My way of thinking is back-ups are just that. Just the way I look at it, if his optic is operational no need to be able to flip them up? Maybe get a Geissele QD for the Trijicon so removal is easy. I like your idea of the 45 RMR the best. Not a big fan of getting RMRs mounted high off the bore, like on top of the Trijicon. I also like the regular mounted BUIS because maybe obtaining batteries is a concern (preping was mentioned). Then again, I have an fiber optic RMR, no batteries needed. Using a 1-6 for CQB chould be problematic, maybe adding one of those handy magnification levers would help? Just to bring up the ELCAN again, that simple throw lever is awesome. I know @Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆  posted something about orders being cut, he could probably buy all three of us an ELCAN!


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 15, 2018)

Agreed. Here I am dimpling barrels, pinning gas blocks and checking head space and I am being a bitch about 200 bucks.

Thanks for the input.

@256 my orders are TDY to Tech School for retraining. I ain't gettin that deployment money...


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## Gunz (Feb 15, 2018)

policemedic said:


> ...has drawbacks if used in a *CQB setting (I’m showing my age with that term, methinks).*



Now it's called SGS: _Some Gansta Shit_.


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## 256 (Feb 15, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Now it's called SDS: _Some Gansta Shit_.



This got coffee on my shirt!



policemedic said:


> However, it has drawbacks if used in a CQB setting (I’m showing my age with that term, methinks)



I got so wrapped up in responding I forgot to mention this. I'm so behind the curve I didn't know CQB was an old term (is it?)


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 15, 2018)

policemedic said:


> What I understood him to mean was that he couldn’t extend the BUIS with the scope mounted.  Essentially, that leaves him with no BUIS.



You are correct, that was my thought. They just seem pointless on this rig but if the scope goes down then the scope comes off and irons come up. Thisis the mount I purchased.

The more I researched the more I disliked the offset BUIS. I do however, like the offset RMR @policemedic. My question is mounting all of this. From what I have read you want to keep the scope mount on the upper receiver and not have any portion on the forend. With the rear BUIS mounted as far back as possible the only place for the RMR would be on the forend. Is that how you have it set up?


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## 256 (Feb 15, 2018)

policemedic said:


> There are options for mounting irons at an offset or a second optic like an RMR as a backup/close range sight.



All the credit is to @policemedic for that.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 15, 2018)

If it’s going to be primarily a target gun, set it up for that. Mission drives the gear train.[/QUOTE]

I don't want to come off like some wack-a-doodle but the primary use for my weapons is defense and I try to set them up that way. I try to take a minimalist approach to what I attach to my rifle. Quality optic, BUIS, light and fore grip as my picture in this thread shows.

This scope on an AR is new to me so I appreicate all the advice from people that know the business.

Not trying to do this...


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## 256 (Feb 15, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> You are correct, that was my thought. They just seem pointless on this rig but if the scope goes down then the scope comes off and irons come up. Thisis the mount I purchased.
> 
> The more I researched the more I disliked the offset BUIS. I do however, like the offset RMR @256. My question is mounting all of this. From what I have read you want to keep the scope mount on the upper receiver and not have any portion on the forend. With the rear BUIS mounted as far back as possible the only place for the RMR would be on the forend. Is that how you have it set up?



We haven't done so yet (mounted the RMRs). Us snipers are getting 4 HK MR762 and we anticipate putting offset RMRs on those. The rifles will have S&B Ultra Short optics, which makes mounting the 45 RMR easier because the primary optic doesn't take up much room. You want to mount the 45 RMR and the backup sights? I'd do one or the other.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 15, 2018)

I was thinking about both. Having the BUIS mounted as normal and the RMR at the45 degree. Bad idea?


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## Devildoc (Feb 15, 2018)

256 said:


> We haven't done so yet (mounted the RMRs). Us snipers are getting 4 HK MR762 and we anticipate putting offset RMRs on those. The rifles will have S&B Ultra Short optics, which makes mounting the 45 RMR easier because the primary optic doesn't take up much room. You want to mount the 45 RMR and the backup sights? I'd do one or the other.



RMR on a HK762?


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## Devildoc (Feb 15, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> I was thinking about both. Having the BUIS mounted as normal and the RMR at the45 degree. Bad idea?



BUIS, optic, and a RMR?  or RMR in lieu of optic?


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 15, 2018)

The optic on this build is a 1-6X magnification. As policemedic pointed out it has drawbacks at close range. The RMR would be used for that and the BUIS in case both failed.

Is this getting dumb?


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## 256 (Feb 15, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> RMR on a HK762?



Yeah, on a 45 offset. When I deploy with it on scene I don’t want to carry an AR and the MR762. One of our snipers ran into a suspect they were looking for in a back yard that was “secured.” The Police on scene told him that the suspect was inside his house. He ended up having to kill the guy. Basically the offset RMR allows me to use it if we have to while getting into position.

Police confirm identify of SWAT officer who shot Alexander

I edited this and changed “we” to “they” because I wasn’t on the team yet.


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## 256 (Feb 15, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> The optic on this build is a 1-6X magnification. As policemedic pointed out it has drawbacks at close range. The RMR would be used for that and the BUIS in case both failed.
> 
> Is this getting dumb?



No, you’re just asking questions. It’s your weapon, do whatever you’d like. I would run one or the other, and I use the dual illuminated RMR.


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## Devildoc (Feb 15, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> The optic on this build is a 1-6X magnification. As policemedic pointed out it has drawbacks at close range. The RMR would be used for that and the BUIS in case both failed.
> 
> Is this getting dumb?



It is not dumb.  I do think you are overthinking it.  I think the RMR and BUIS are the same; each just uses a different way to 'paint' the target.  If irons are good to hit targets at 500 yards, they will be good enough at 25 feet, provided you know your zero.  The chances of BUIS failing is...very small.


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## Devildoc (Feb 15, 2018)

256 said:


> Yeah, on a 45 offset. When I deploy with it on scene I don’t want to carry an AR and the MR762. One of our snipers ran into a suspect we were looking for in a back yard that was “secured.” The Police on scene told him that the suspect was inside his house. He ended up having to kill the guy. Basically the offset RMR allows me to use it if we have to while getting into position.
> 
> Police confirm identify of SWAT officer who shot Alexander



Hmmm.  I had never thought about the role of the long gun inside those distances.  When I was a medic on the tac team, our snipers deployed with long gun as well as an AR/HK MP5.


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## 256 (Feb 15, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Hmmm.  I had never thought about the role of the long gun inside those distances.  When I was a medic on the tac team, our snipers deployed with long gun as well as an AR/HK MP5.




That’s really why I like the option of the semi-auto DMR, I guess would be the correct term. A very generous LE supporter donated the 4 MRs and 20 HK416s to the team. I asked for an MP7, my request was denied...haha


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## Devildoc (Feb 15, 2018)

256 said:


> That’s really why I like the option of the semi-auto DMR, I guess would be the correct term. A very generous LE supporter donated the 4 MRs and 20 HK416s to the team. I asked for an MP7, my request was denied...haha



LOL....yeah, I'd take the MP7, too....

THAT is one very generous supporter.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 15, 2018)

@Devildoc the BUIS are for use if the scope and/or RMR go down. I think I would have a whole new level of issues if my BUIS shit the bed. The chances of both optics going down are slim I'm sure.


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## Devildoc (Feb 15, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> @Devildoc the BUIS are for use if the scope and/or RMR go down. I think I would have a whole new level of issues if my BUIS shit the bed. The chances of both optics going down are slim I'm sure.



You are going into a realm of "if optic and BUIS go down then it is God's fate that I should die."  BUIS won't go down.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 15, 2018)

Thanks for taking the time to share your experience and opinions on this topic. I'll post a picture of the finished product.


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## 256 (Feb 15, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> Thanks for taking the time to share your experience and opinions on this topic. I'll post a picture of the finished product.



Looking forward to it.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 15, 2018)

@256 & @policemedic  what MOA dot would you suggest for the RMR?


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## Devildoc (Feb 15, 2018)

Looking forward to it....


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## 256 (Feb 15, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> @256 & @policemedic  what MOA dot would you suggest for the RMR?



I haven’t used it in that capacity yet, so I can’t give you an experienced opinion. Sorry man.


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## policemedic (Feb 15, 2018)

My RMR is mounted on a handgun not a rifle. I think MOA of the dot is personal preference but I wouldn’t go above 3.25.


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## policemedic (Feb 16, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> You are correct, that was my thought. They just seem pointless on this rig but if the scope goes down then the scope comes off and irons come up. Thisis the mount I purchased.
> 
> The more I researched the more I disliked the offset BUIS. I do however, like the offset RMR @policemedic. My question is mounting all of this. From what I have read you want to keep the scope mount on the upper receiver and not have any portion on the forend. With the rear BUIS mounted as far back as possible the only place for the RMR would be on the forend. Is that how you have it set up?



For clairty, I don't have two optics on my rifle.  Eotech, flip-away 3x magnifier, flip-up front and rear BUIS, and (until I had to turn it back into the quartermaster) a Surefire X400.  It's good for inside a room out to 600m.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 16, 2018)

Much like the rig I have pictured?


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## policemedic (Feb 16, 2018)

Pretty much, other than it's a suppressed SBR.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 16, 2018)

This is the upper at the moment as it is a work in progress. The RMR would go forward of the scope mount.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 16, 2018)

@Muppet  let's go zero this bang stick!


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## Muppet (Feb 16, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> @Muppet  let's go zero this bang stick!



I'm in.

M.


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## CQB (Feb 17, 2018)

Not to derail; at the range today I saw this old guy shuffle on a walking stick up to the mound  to do some bench rest shooting. 
I said to my buddy, “ There goes Yoda.” 
He says, “He shoots iron sights. He’s 98, but he’s not old enough to graduate to glass.”  
...and he’s an awesome shot.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 17, 2018)

CQB said:


> Not to derail; at the range today I saw this old guy shuffle on a walking stick up to the mound  to do some bench rest shooting.
> I said to my buddy, “ There goes Yoda.”
> He says, “He shoots iron sights. He’s 98, but he’s not old enough to graduate to glass.”
> ...and he’s an awesome shot.



The ability to shoot with irons is becoming a lost art.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 17, 2018)

Apparently the Air Force simply lost their irons


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## 256 (Feb 17, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> This is the upper at the moment as it is a work in progress. The RMR would go forward of the scope mount.
> View attachment 21526


I have the same work bench..approved.


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## SuperchargedSVTCobra (Mar 21, 2018)

On my M4 I have a BUIS. However, I primarily utilize an EOTech 516.a65 HWS.  “Holographic Weapon Sight” plus a EOTech G33 STS “Switch to Side” On the top picatinny rail. I absolutely love how you can engage targets at close quarters with the HWS & Then switch the G33 over to magnify targets out to 250+ yards. Although, I would like to upgrade to the EOTech EXPS3, XPS2-2. I don’t know if it’s necessarily worth the money to upgrade from the 516.A65.


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## SPAK (Mar 31, 2018)

MBUS® Pro Offset Sight – Front

Someone mentioned it earlier but you can also offset mount your buis as well.


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