# Nurse arrested for refusing to draw blood from DWI suspect



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 2, 2017)

Okay so if I understand this correctly.

Cop wanted blood drawn - did not have a warrant and patient was unable to consent
Nurse refused to draw blood because she had no legal order to do so.
Cop arrested nurse for....?

I am VERY interested to hear from both the police perspective and the medical side.  Specifically, does anyone believe that the cop was justified in arresting the nurse?  

To add - the nurse is a bit dramatic and her screams would lead you to believe she is being viciously attacked.  I had to turn the volume down a bit.

To add once more - even if the officer felt like he needed to arrest the nurse on some legal basis, could he have been more of a dink about it.  The video that we are shown see the nurse attempting to explain her point to the officer in a calm and respectful way.  No reason he could not extend her the same professional courtesy. 

Video shows Utah nurse screaming, being handcuffed after refusing to take blood from unconscious victim


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## policemedic (Sep 2, 2017)

I was under the impression the detective wanted to draw it himself.  I may be wrong. 

Regardless, this is a shitshow.


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## medicchick (Sep 2, 2017)

Let me quote some federal regulations...



> *Implied Consent to Alcohol Testing*
> Any person who holds a CDL is considered to have consented to such testing as is required by any State or jurisdiction in the enforcement of being under the influence of a controlled substance or using alcohol, be under the influence of alcohol, or have any measured alcohol concentration or detected presence of alcohol, while on duty, or operating, or in physical control of a commercial motor vehicle. Consent is implied by driving a commercial motor vehicle.



States

Driver was in his semi delivering a load when he was hit.  They had every right to test him per federal regulation.  It was an accident that resulted in a death, even if he was not at fault at all testing is required to be done.  I am not saying either side did the right thing as I feel it was allowed to escalate WAY out of hand.


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## Florida173 (Sep 2, 2017)

medicchick said:


> Let me quote some federal regulations...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If that would have been the conversation, I think it might be different. The nurse was acting in the best interest of the hospital and the patient while also speaking with her supervisor on the phone. My understanding that the hospital had an agreement already with what would allow for blood draw and this situation didn't meet the criteria. There are a few other angles of the event that aren't edited that show a more context of the situation. 

The officer was put on leave and nurse has received an apology. Seems like admission of guilt. Officer Payne's supervisor is the one that advised him to make the arrest if she refused though. The entire event didn't seem like it should have played out that way in my opinion.


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## CDG (Sep 2, 2017)

That cop was a fucking dickhead, based on what the video shows. It was a policy dispute that should have been handled by supervisors, not by a detective and a nurse.


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## medicchick (Sep 2, 2017)

Florida173 said:


> If that would have been the conversation, I think it might be different. The nurse was acting in the best interest of the hospital and the patient while also speaking with her supervisor on the phone. My understanding that the hospital had an agreement already with what would allow for blood draw and this situation didn't meet the criteria. There are a few other angles of the event that aren't edited that show a more context of the situation.
> 
> The officer was put on leave and nurse has received an apology. Seems like admission of guilt. Officer Payne's supervisor is the one that advised him to make the arrest if she refused though. The entire event didn't seem like it should have played out that way in my opinion.


I think there needs to be some education on both sides.  Since a CDL holder has already consented when they applied for one it should have been easy to get a warrant.  The hospital should however be made aware of the federal regulations in place about it as well.  Shit show all the way around.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 2, 2017)

medicchick said:


> I think there needs to be some education on both sides.  Since a CDL holder has already consented when they applied for one it should have been easy to get a warrant.  The hospital should however be made aware of the federal regulations in place about it as well.  Shit show all the way around.




We all need to understand the policy put in place by hospitals for events like this. In this case and ones like it hospitals allow police to conduct the blood draws if they meet the criteria outlined, she read the policy the police department agreed to, to the detective. We have a similar policy at Shock Trauma, and University of Maryland. 

Like you said the warrant should have been easy. 

Implied consent wouldn't mean shit to me. Come at my patient without a warrant, a MD order, or the consent of the patient, talking about some federal law and I'm going to tell you very professionally to get fucked. HIPPA rules the world in medicine and her allowing her patient to have blood drawn when it isn't ok would result in her losing her job, license, and future earnings. 

This was total clown shoes by the cops who were there.


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 2, 2017)

[Q


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## Florida173 (Sep 2, 2017)

Is there irony in citing federal regulations; while also being a sudo sanctuary city?


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## Kraut783 (Sep 2, 2017)

Texas law allows the involuntary taking of blood from a suspect if a victim has died or will die, no warrant required. (Traffic accidents/watercraft accidents)

But what happened in that video was, as someone put it, a complete shitshow.


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## policemedic (Sep 2, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> Texas law allows the involuntary taking of blood from a suspect if a victim has died or will die, no warrant required. (Traffic accidents/watercraft accidents)
> 
> But what happened in that video was, as someone put it, a complete shitshow.



How is that affected by Birchfield v. North Dakota?


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## TLDR20 (Sep 2, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> Texas law allows the involuntary taking of blood from a suspect if a victim has died or will die, no warrant required. (Traffic accidents/watercraft accidents)
> 
> But what happened in that video was, as someone put it, a complete shitshow.



This was in Utah.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 2, 2017)

I'm also reading this took place five weeks ago. 

On a side note, I hear United Airlines is hiring should the detective need a new job.


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## Kraut783 (Sep 2, 2017)

policemedic said:


> How is that affected by Birchfield v. North Dakota?



It is not affected.  I believe the three cases consolidated in that decision were misdemeanor DWI and refusal cases, while the Texas law is for intoxication manslaughter, 2nd Degree Felony.

We do have no-refusal days, usually holidays, when Police will get SW's for blood on misdemeanor DWI cases.  Something I really don't agree with.....

And while I know this huge screwup happened in Utah, I was just showing how some states it's not uncommon to draw blood without a SW.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 2, 2017)

Second officer has just been put on administrative leave in connection to the criminal investigation that SLPD is conducting.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 2, 2017)

Singed consent or get a warrant. That detective is an asshole and needs his "contempt of cop" card pulled.


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## Muppet (Sep 3, 2017)

This entire debacle was uncalled for. I am pro cop, as much as any other emergency services person but this, IMHO, punched a stake between the entire nursing / hospital system and law enforcement. Hopefully, both sides will be able to see through this and still be able to work together in the future. I am not sure if this nurse will proceed with a civil suit / wrongful arrest, what ever it's called. I imagine it would be settled quickly. If this happened to me, I am not so sure I would sue. It reminds me of the rash of Cali Highway Patrol LEOs, arresting fire dept. engine / ladder drivers for maintaining a blocking position on a major highway. For those that don't know that, it is when a large fire truck blocks a lane or 2, sometimes, the entire highway, allowing EMS/fire providers a safer space to work an M.V.C. / pin in. Many drivers were told to move, they did not, arrested they were. Fucked up, again, that stake between cops / fire-EMS.

One other thing. Social media obviously played a huge role in this. 10 or 15 years ago, this would have not been so highly debated.

M.


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## amlove21 (Sep 3, 2017)

Someone is getting PAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAID.


I mean nurse Wubbel. She's going to profit monetarily from this altercation.


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 3, 2017)

.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 3, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Yup. This is the case where she sits down on one side of the table with her attorney.
> 
> On the other side of the table are the city and their attorney. The city opens up the wallet and asks, "How much do you want?" The Nurse wins. The facility has a suit as well for interfering with direct patient care, and the running of the unit the Nurse was in charge of.
> 
> ...



We have been talking about this for a few days on the unit I work on. There are a lot of male nurses, almost all veterans. No way we'd let one of our female colleagues get dragged off by some cop without a hell of a lot more shit going on than happened there. 

Where were her co-workers?


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## policemedic (Sep 3, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> We have been talking about this for a few days on the unit I work on. There are a lot of male nurses, almost all veterans. No way we'd let one of our female colleagues get dragged off by some cop without a hell of a lot more shit going on than happened there.
> 
> Where were her co-workers?



I'm not defending what took place in Utah. As I said, it was a shitshow with legal ramifications and subtleties that could support a dissertation. 

That said, interfering with an arrest--even one ultimately determined to have been made without legal grounds--will get you locked up in many states. It's a good way to lose a license. 

It's also interesting that the charge could result in a conviction even if the arrest that was interfered with didn't result in charges, as occurred in Utah.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 3, 2017)

policemedic said:


> I'm not defending what took place in Utah. As I said, it was a shitshow with legal ramifications and subtleties that could support a dissertation.
> 
> That said, interfering with an arrest--even one ultimately determined to have been made without legal grounds--will get you locked up in many states. It's a good way to lose a license.
> 
> It's also interesting that the charge could result in a conviction even if the arrest that was interfered with didn't result in charges, as occurred in Utah.



Oh I get that. At the same time stopping what appears to be an assault is still a thing I hope I would do. 

No one seemed to offer any kind of resistance. That is disturbing to me


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 3, 2017)

.


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## policemedic (Sep 3, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Oh I get that. At the same time stopping what appears to be an assault is still a thing I hope I would do.
> 
> No one seemed to offer any kind of resistance. That is disturbing to me



I would have expected the University of Utah police officer to step in with a cooler head. I think what happened is everyone was just shocked that he actually did it. I doubt anyone actually thought he'd go that far.


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## Grunt (Sep 3, 2017)

That detective committed multiple failures in a short amount of time. IMO, it started when his job became personal rather than professional and quickly went downhill from there at an unrecoverable speed.

From everything I saw in the video, he was out-of-control and simply reacted based on his emotions. Bad day for him!


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## CDG (Sep 4, 2017)

I agree with the theory that the cop was operating off of pure emotion. Things were definitely somewhat heated in the video, but the cop went off the deep end when he was told to not threaten a nurse. As soon as that statement was made, he went full retard.


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## Dame (Sep 4, 2017)

And the Salt Lake City PR department just face-palmed. Turns out the patient was an Idaho reserve police officer. :wall:



> “The Rigby Police Department would like to thank the nurse involved and hospital staff for standing firm, and protecting Officer Gray’s rights as a patient and victim. Protecting the rights of others is truly a heroic act,” the department said.



Idaho police reveal patient defended by ‘heroic’ nurse was an officer


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## Kraut783 (Sep 4, 2017)

You can't make this shit up.....


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## Devildoc (Sep 4, 2017)

Our policy is pretty explicit. No warrant, no blood.  In a dozen years in the emergency department, we've never had an issue in this area.  If the cops want to draw the blood, when I'm done taking care of the patient, if it's their policy, they are free to do so. But we can't do it without a warrant.


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 4, 2017)

Dame said:


> And the Salt Lake City PR department just face-palmed. Turns out the patient was an Idaho reserve police officer. :wall:
> 
> 
> 
> Idaho police reveal patient defended by ‘heroic’ nurse was an officer


No sarcasm intended.  

Why does this matter or relevant?


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 4, 2017)

As she embraces her new founded social media fame more and more, my sympathies for this nurse become less and less....

In my OP I said that I thought that the screams were a bit much, especially knowing this was being videoed and so many witnesses around.

Utah nurse arrested by a cop for doing her job speaks out | Daily Mail Online

- Wubbels said she released video as a 'trigger' to spur authorities to act
- She said cops need to police themselves if they're going to regain public trust
- And she claims a lawsuit could be on the cards after the 'traumatic experience

That, she said, is why she only released the footage this week.
_'It took me a while to understand that I was in a traumatic experience a <find the right lawyer >and I needed a moment to give my emotions a chance to rest,' <see how much I could get > she said.

To add -

Yep the cop was wrong.  
Yep the nurse should get paid. 

My problem is with the carefully crafted lawyer phrases. Just bugs me I guess.
_


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## BloodStripe (Sep 4, 2017)

Good, I hope she does get bank from this. It's not like she went out of her way to make this incident happen.

Further, she's the one who had to release this info. Clearly the PD would have preferred this not be released, or else they would have done so by now. The fact that this happened six weeks ago and the Mayor was informed the same time we were further proves this point.


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## Dame (Sep 4, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> No sarcasm intended.
> Why does this matter or relevant?



Because his Idaho police department issued a statement calling her heroic for defending their officer.   "Joe Schmoe" doesn't have a PD to issue statements on his behalf and in support of Nurse Wubbels.


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 4, 2017)

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## BloodStripe (Sep 4, 2017)

What is the average payday the average person receives for similar treatment that's not a nurse? Does or should it matter that the victim is a nurse? If not, this will hopefully set case law.


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 4, 2017)

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## TLDR20 (Sep 4, 2017)

I think this is also a huge deal because of how nurses are seen In the community. They are regularly among the most trusted profession in America.

Americans Rate Healthcare Providers High on Honesty, Ethics

Nurses are the ones who fight tooth am nail for patients. Who hold their hands when they suffer, and will literally get arrested to keep your rights from being violated. People know that, which is part of the reason this has gone as viral as it has.


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## Grunt (Sep 4, 2017)

The nursing and LE occupations are both honorable professions. When they clash -- for whatever reason -- it will certainly make the news! Unfortunately, this was a situation that should have never occurred but did. It needs to be corrected and the only way to do so is for the LEO to pay whatever penalties are applicable -- either civilly, criminally, or both. I am hoping that the two organizations will get together and make things right as adults should do and not fix it by utilizing the shotgun-effect to do so!


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 4, 2017)

Hospital administration drop the hammer. Is this too much? Unless they are having similar issues with that particular police department. 

University Hospital boss talks changes after nurse arrest, says ‘this will not happen again’


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## medicchick (Sep 4, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Hospital administration drop the hammer. Is this too much? Unless they are having similar issues with that particular police department.
> 
> University Hospital boss talks changes after nurse arrest, says ‘this will not happen again’





> The new policy, which was implemented in mid-August, will require police to interact with the hospital supervisor. *It also will prevent law enforcement officials from entering the emergency room, burn unit or other patient areas in the hospital.*




Sooo, they can get food or use the restroom and that's it?  I wonder how that will work when they bring someone in.  My first thought from watching the video was that a supervisor should have been there after she refused the blood, that is what they are paid for.  That part of the policy change is good imo.


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## policemedic (Sep 4, 2017)

medicchick said:


> Sooo, they can get food or use the restroom and that's it?  I wonder how that will work when they bring someone in.  My first thought from watching the video was that a supervisor should have been there after she refused the blood, that is what they are paid for.  That part of the policy change is good imo.



Yeah, talk about driving a wedge between two professions that normally work hand-in-glove.  I think this part of the policy is a knee jerk overreach that will have unintended consequences.  It would be very difficult to do certain aspects of my job if I couldn't walk into the ED, or interview someone on the floor.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 4, 2017)

I'd say that the detectives actions caused this policy changes. Not the administration, who is clearly protecting their staff and patient's from a overreacting LEA, that they are forced to interact with. 

With all the liability involved in medical care, I would not be surprised if more hospitals take this approach. 

I think they should fire that detective, hold him criminally and civilly liable for his actions. Make that asshole the example and have each officer of that LEA sign a policy letter, that they will get the same when they violate people's civil rights. 

Fucking blood evidence is not worth the bullshit problems it causes. Just my $.02


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 5, 2017)

[
.


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## DA SWO (Sep 5, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Yup!! The LEO who arrested the Nurse screwed up, massively. Unless this is an ongoing friction with the local PD, the new hospital policy just made things worse. I just don't see how this helps anything.


I wonder if this is an on-going problem?
I also wonder if they knew he was a Reserve Officer and were over reacting because of that?
Good thing the hospital has it's own PD and will never need help from the city.


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## Devildoc (Sep 5, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Yeah, talk about driving a wedge between two professions that normally work hand-in-glove.  I think this part of the policy is a knee jerk overreach that will have unintended consequences.  It would be very difficult to do certain aspects of my job if I couldn't walk into the ED, or interview someone on the floor.



Our ED has a very cordial relationship with LE.  They need access, we like the presence.  Symbiotic.  And has got me out of more than one ticket.  This policy will be bad ju ju for both.


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## Grunt (Sep 5, 2017)

After a crime or incident has been committed and the subject(s) are at the hospital, time is on the side of LE and things CAN slow down and be done RIGHT.  That investigator was over his head and possibly over his ability and reacted by panicking and losing control. He needs to reap what he has sown and hopefully everyone else will calm down as well and begin repairing the damage caused by the clown.


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 5, 2017)

.


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## policemedic (Sep 5, 2017)

Cop who arrested Utah nurse fired from medic job 

The hits keep coming for this detective, but he is only reaping what he has sown.  Patient dumping, which is essentially what he said he'd do, is not looked on favorably by anyone--including CMS.


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## Muppet (Sep 5, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Hospital administration drop the hammer. Is this too much? Unless they are having similar issues with that particular police department.
> 
> University Hospital boss talks changes after nurse arrest, says ‘this will not happen again’



Thinking the same thing. I was working all weekend, every time I was in the E.D., a cop was there for some reason. This will not be fun for the cops.

M.


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## policemedic (Sep 5, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Hospitals that size and even smaller ones of 100 beds or so, have their own security, usually armed. The security is contracted out and most issues that require authority, facilities already have.
> 
> There may be ongoing issues with the SLPD but the hospital statement did not reflect that. In my years of practice, the relationship between LEO and Hospitals have been mutually supportive. They will have county and State LEO's in their hospitals for any number of reasons. From time to time, incarcerated persons need inpatient care. These people will bring corrections officer inside the hospital as well. This has gone from worse to what seems to be mindless stupidity, but that's just me.
> 
> ...



Your experience may be different than mine.  Most hospitals that I have responded to or taken patients to or that I have worked with on active shooter issues do have security but rarely are they armed.  Even those that are have no law enforcement authority.  There are some obvious exceptions (the VA hospitals, large university teaching hospitals with university police departments, New York City Department of Health and Hospitals Police [unarmed]), but usually hospitals are protected by unarmed guards.  Oftentimes, these guards are contracted and are not hospital employees.  I am not encouraged with the state of hospital security, but that's me.

I completely agree that this debate should have occurred in someone's office and not where patients/families could hear and see it.


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## Muppet (Sep 5, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Cop who arrested Utah nurse fired from medic job
> 
> The hits keep coming for this detective, but he is only reaping what he has sown.  Patient dumping, which is essentially what he said he'd do, is not looked on favorably by anyone--including CMS.



Fuck him. Good...

M.


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## policemedic (Sep 5, 2017)

Muppet said:


> Thinking the same thing. I was working all weekend, every time I was in the E.D., a cop was there for some reason. This will not be fun for the cops.
> 
> M.



They were watching you...always watching....


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## Muppet (Sep 5, 2017)

Again, my take. You know, I am pro LEO, as a former SWAT medic and all. Cop was wrong, R.N. was right. She did portray the level-1 drama alert but god damn, she did her job. The new hospital policy is, IMHO, a bit over the top. Cops are in the E.D., all of the time. What if's all over the place. Pt. goes ballistic, call cops. Pt. is a 302, wanting to leave, call cops. Where this goes will be interesting.

M.


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## Muppet (Sep 5, 2017)

@policemedic .Your quote did not show up bro.

M.


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## policemedic (Sep 5, 2017)

Muppet said:


> Again, my take. You know, I am pro LEO, as a former SWAT medic and all. Cop was wrong, R.N. was right. She did portray the level-1 drama alert but god damn, she did her job. The new hospital policy is, IMHO, a bit over the top. Cops are in the E.D., all of the time. What if's all over the place. Pt. goes ballistic, call cops. Pt. is a 302, wanting to leave, call cops. Where this goes will be interesting.
> 
> M.



I brought pizza and snacks to our trauma nurses last night.  Cheap investment to let them know this isn't Utah.


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## policemedic (Sep 5, 2017)

Muppet said:


> @policemedic .Your quote did not show up bro.
> 
> M.



Look closely....


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## Muppet (Sep 5, 2017)

policemedic said:


> I brought pizza and snacks to our trauma nurses last night.  Cheap investment to let them know this isn't Utah.



Kenny and I did the same for our LBH peeps. The cops in this AO have a good relationship. But, it only takes one cunt, like this guy to shit all over that. Both jobs are very difficult. You know, I have 1 pt. for 20 mins, total jerk off, drop at E.D., they have it for 5 hours with a 4 pt. load, docs bitching and moaning, nursing super all over the place, no food or drinks at nursing station, no piss breaks. Fuck that. Cops, we all know the shit you take. Medics, same. Thats why I need to be in Sedona, AR, far away from people...

M.


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## Muppet (Sep 5, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Look closely....



Missing it.

M.


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## AWP (Sep 6, 2017)

I see something in her future, a lifestyle change perhaps, I envision....


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## TLDR20 (Sep 6, 2017)

AWP said:


> I see something in her future, a lifestyle change perhaps, I envision....



Yeah she is never going to work again.


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## Frank S. (Sep 6, 2017)

Tempus fugit. Here's why I love the film "Jiro dreams of sushi".

@Red Flag 1 pointed out _how acute the nursing shortage is nationwide_, and it's an observation that's true  also of professions like Law Enforcement and teaching among others.
Once you count yourself lucky enough as a recruiter to have found a "potential" candidate, who is not only willing but qualified, how many years does it take to train them and for them to become proficient in fields that are more and more technical?  _Some points made in another thread are pertinent._
@Marauder06 pointed out _we are all products of our environment and slaves to our experiences_, to which I'd add that there is precious little if any effort made to help people break free from the resulting calcification.
It's the scars I don't see which concern me.
In the time we allot ourselves to study, acquire, review, test and practice, practice and test our professional knowledge, the demands of our increasingly overlapping fields increase at an unmanageable rate. I see us, society, receding further behind the curve: automation and AI are the most readily available palliative. There is too much to learn, too much to do, for too many people by people who take too long.

Not to mention the innumerable opportunities to fail in the court of public opinion.


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## Devildoc (Sep 6, 2017)

To address the nursing shortage.  S*** like that certainly doesn't help. Nor do the spitting, beatings, assaults, and being puked on on a regular basis. Well, the puking we have to deal with, the rest has just been part of the job until very recently. Now there is legislation pending and laws that have been passed addressing assaulting nurses. The ED is a Minefield for so many reasons, and has a Perpetual shortage Nationwide.


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## Frank S. (Sep 6, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> laws that have been passed addressing assaulting nurses.



Has that  helped, or is it too early to tell?


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## Muppet (Sep 6, 2017)

Frank S. said:


> Has that  helped, or is it too early to tell?



Some states make assaulting a nurse or paramedic, a felony, just like an L.E.O. Problem is, in the pre-hospital or hospital setting, patients that spit, hit, kick need to be ruled out as not having a medical issue. This works in favor of their lawyer. If that lawyer can go down the road of "this pt. was medical ill / psych ill", the felony may be dropped to a misdemeanor or down right thrown out of court. In almost 18 years as a paramedic, I have been subject to assaults, more than a few times, the felony was dropped to simple assault or dropped all together, "pt. was a psych off meds" defense. That all make sense bro?

M.


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## Frank S. (Sep 6, 2017)

It does. I think it does nothing to reduce the amount of assaults medics/nurses get subjected to, personally...


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## Devildoc (Sep 6, 2017)

Frank S. said:


> Has that  helped, or is it too early to tell?



In my department and Hospital, yes. They have already prosecuted some offenders.


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## policemedic (Sep 6, 2017)

Laws don't prevent crimes, so the prevalence of assaults on ED nurses and paramedics has remained constant in my view.  However, at least in PA, our law allows me to make an arrest (by making the crime a felony) where I otherwise could not. Regardless of what happens in court the offender has been in jail and had to make bail, pay a lawyer or deal with the public defender, go to court...Even absent a conviction there are consequences.


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## Devildoc (Sep 6, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Laws don't prevent crimes, so the prevalence of assaults on ED nurses and paramedics has remained constant in my view.  However, at least in PA, our law allows me to make an arrest (by making the crime a felony) where I otherwise could not. Regardless of what happens in court the offender has been in jail and had to make bail, pay a lawyer or deal with the public defender, go to court...Even absent a conviction there are consequences.



I do not remember what the charge was before, but the general feeling was it was just part of the job. That is not the feeling anymore, leadership and law enforcement are very swift in dealing with it now. That is fairly new.


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## policemedic (Sep 6, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> I do not remember what the charge was before, but the general feeling was it was just part of the job. That is not the feeling anymore, leadership and law enforcement are very swift in dealing with it now. That is fairly new.



I've run into that before, coupled with the ever-popular, "I don't want them to get into trouble."

#nursesaren'tpunchingbags


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## Kraut783 (Sep 6, 2017)

Nurses and Police have historically gotten along.....but all professions have ass clowns, discipline them or fire them or arrest them...and move on.


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## pardus (Sep 6, 2017)

That cop acted disgracefully. He needs to be charged, and to a lessor extent, so does the supervisor who ordered him to act in this way. An abuse of authority that needs to be jumped on from a great height. Particularly at this point in time when (IMO) LEOs need to be using COIN mentality to bring their own citizens closer to them.

My .02c


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## Gunz (Sep 7, 2017)

Muppet said:


> it only takes one cunt.




There it is.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 11, 2017)

*<UPDATE>*

Utah officer fired after nurse's arrest caught on video

ALT LAKE CITY (AP) — A Utah police officer who was caught on video roughly handcuffing a nurse because she refused to allow a blood draw was fired Tuesday in a case that became a flashpoint in the ongoing national conversation about police use of force.

*To add* - he took his boss down with him.  I'll have to go back and read "why".
Payne's supervisor, Lt. James Tracy, was also demoted to officer. His lawyer, Ed Brass, couldn't immediately be reached for comment.


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## CDG (Oct 11, 2017)

Good riddance fuckstick.  IIRC, in the first articles to come out, the LT was the one who told Payne to make the arrest if he couldn't get the blood.


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## SaintKP (Oct 11, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> *<UPDATE>*
> 
> Utah officer fired after nurse's arrest caught on video
> 
> ...




Good, means there is some "right" left in the world after all.


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## Totentanz (Oct 11, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> *<UPDATE>*
> 
> Utah officer fired after nurse's arrest caught on video
> 
> ...



IIRC, the supervisor was on the phone with him throughout the incident, and directly instructed Payne to arrest her.  Might not have been the one who went hands-on, but in my eyes, just as responsible for what went down.


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 11, 2017)

I've read through the entire thread from page 01 and found comments from @TLDR20 @Muppet and @policemedic that struck me the most.



TLDR20 said:


> No way we'd let one of our female colleagues get dragged off by some cop without a hell of a lot more shit going on than happened there.


While I have zero-percent doubt in _your_ ability to gain tactical control of the situation, I hate this particular mentality implied - the worst thing you can do when a cop gets out of line is make an attempt to get physically involved. He's the guy with the gun, he's the guy with the "con" and if push came to shove there are a lot more guys that'll stack that doorway with his needs in mind first. Her colleagues appeared to be following along through the situation including during the arrest. One could have addressed her directly to calm down while the other continued to discuss the situation with the detective. Would it have helped? Doubt it, but had it worked it would have been worth it.

@Muppet & @policemedic
You both seem pretty set against the detective for his actions - from my layman's viewpoint, what am I missing? He didn't seem that rough in the video (yeah he grabbed her but he didn't slam her against a wall or yell like what I would believe to be rough) and appeared to be only interested in removing her from the situation. Sure, she was the nurse in charge which I assume means more than I understand currently - often police officers appear to use the handcuffs/arrest as a tool for navigating a particular situation. The Lieutenant's stance seemed to encourage his actions as well if that was indeed the guy on the phone.

*Dude has been honorably serving society since before I was born in the 1980s as both a LEO and Paramedic *- while I agree he could have likely navigated the situation better I wouldn't necessarily label him "a fucking cunt" who "needs to be fired" especially considering the amount he's sacrificed. The nurse was arrested, for what seemed to be 20 minutes, and she was in handcuffs/crying/etc... it was a dick move but not a move worthy of being kicked in the well for Sparta.

He seems to be getting fired over the publicity of the event, where, the effects seem _exaggerated at best_. I'm glad the nurse stood her ground and applaud her tenacity to stick to what she believed to be the best of patient care - I just wish the cop wasn't losing his entire livelihood over a stupid ass situation.


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## Muppet (Oct 11, 2017)

Saved for later...

M.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 11, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> I've read through the entire thread from page 01 and found comments from @TLDR20 @Muppet and @policemedic that struck me the most.
> <POST>.



Overall I agree with your whole post.  We saw this guy on his worst day; everybody has them.  Not to mention, unless I am missing something HUGE here, the officer was doing this with the blessing (and dare I say, encouragement) of his direct supervisor. 

Personally I am about tired of cell-phone videos taking a snapshot of someone's life, and depending on the way pitchfork-nation is trending, costing someone their job.  We are way WAY too quick take someone's livelihood away over a singular incident.

For everyone calling him a <pick a derogatory name> , have you never done something in your job that you think back on and say, "Damn...that was pretty fucking stupid. Very glad no one saw/heard what just happened".


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## trin (Oct 11, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Personally I am about tired of cell-phone videos taking a snapshot of someone's life, .



It was his own body-cam and those of the other officers, along with hospital security footage, that provided the evidence needed to fire him and demote his supervisor.



The Hate Ape said:


> Sure, she was the nurse in charge which I assume means more than I understand currently



It wasn't just the assault on the nurse, it was the fact that he interfered with patient care of all of the patients in the department at the time.  Every one of those patients could legitimately sue him, his supervisor, and the SLPD for that.


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 11, 2017)

trin said:


> It wasn't just the assault on the nurse, it was the fact that he interfered with patient care of all of the patients in the department at the time.  Every one of those patients could legitimately sue him, his supervisor, and the SLPD for that.



Got it - but a logical application of this statement assumes that the 20 minute ordeal resulted in patient-care coming to a halt. That would be an overstatement and imply that patient-care also could not sustain its intended quality without that specific nurse present. This point is an over-simplification at best and unless any tangible evidence is produced I doubt it will be held upheld by a judicial authority.

A safe assumption is that the nurse has probably taken a shit longer than she was held in custody.

I understand the principle of the situation in the hospital in regards to patient care, but question if anyone has observed the principle of this man's service while weighing the cause/effect and trade value of firing him AWA demoting the Lieutenant. The irony is our collective demand for a realistic and sympathetic approach from the detective yet refusing to apply that mentality in a decision that will impact his entire life.


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## trin (Oct 11, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> Got it - but a logical application of this statement assumes that the 20 minute ordeal resulted in patient-care coming to a halt.


It appears that that's exactly what happened.  At the very least, it was significantly degraded.  And there's also the concept of "transfer of care"--Officer Payne forced her to abandon her patients.  If she were to leave her patients of her own accord, without formally briefing another person of equal or higher licensing about each patient in her charge, she would be fired and lose her nursing license.



> A safe assumption is that the nurse has probably taken a shit longer than she was held in custody.


I would say that assumption is wrong.  Ask hospital nurses (especially in ED) about their restroom breaks.  Not only that, but she was restrained in a hot vehicle for most of that time.  If you or I did that to a child, we would be in jail.  And he may well be facing criminal charges on that count, also.



> question if anyone has observed the principle of this man's service while weighing the cause/effect and trade value of firing him AWA demoting the Lieutenant.


You make it sound as though this was their only career mistake.  That's evidently not the case.  Not only that, but their demonstrated attitude that their word is law, and their contempt for anyone who stands in their way, is cause for deep concern.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 11, 2017)

[Q


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 11, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Your Post





trin said:


> Your Post



Both posts were filled with absorbable information and were exactly what I was looking for as an answer to my "for my Layman's understanding" made previously -

My only addition and final statement on the matter is that a lot of supporting arguments in favor of the Detective's firing that deviate from the risks-to-patient situation (IE: hot car? really?) are too loosely interpreted and amplified for my liking. @trin your sanitation of the firing by stating an assumed pattern of behavior is moot unless you have access to this guy's service record supported by working experience with him.

*Anyone can (and should) argue in favor of the unit's operational integrity *- in-which, as a _paramedic,_ this detective should have understood. That is more than enough justification for a finding of wrong-doing. This is an objective stance and IMHO holds as the only gold-standard argument. The relative stance questions/observes the results of his actions/wrong-doing, influencing factors (the Lieutenant), and the overall value of the detective as an officer of the law in future endeavors.

We discuss the operational integrity of this unit but dismiss the operations this guy was likely involved in with his unit? He wasn't just hospital guy. You don't just throw away a guy who has served that long; emotional stake aside, consider the effects in the AO with a diminished experience track. 

The only thing this guy's firing indicates to me (considering how fast it occurred) is that it met a public demand.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 11, 2017)

Unlawful arrest.  Violated Memorandum of agreement between SLPD and the University Hospital, even after being told what the official policy was.  He's the reason why people hate cops.  Abuse of power, etc.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 11, 2017)

.

t.


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## Kraut783 (Oct 11, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Unlawful arrest.  Violated Memorandum of agreement between SLPD and the University Hospital, even after being told what the official policy was.  He's the reason why people hate cops.  Abuse of power, etc.


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## policemedic (Oct 11, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> I've read through the entire thread from page 01 and found comments from @TLDR20 @Muppet and @policemedic that struck me the most.
> 
> 
> While I have zero-percent doubt in _your_ ability to gain tactical control of the situation, I hate this particular mentality implied - the worst thing you can do when a cop gets out of line is make an attempt to get physically involved. He's the guy with the gun, he's the guy with the "con" and if push came to shove there are a lot more guys that'll stack that doorway with his needs in mind first. Her colleagues appeared to be following along through the situation including during the arrest. One could have addressed her directly to calm down while the other continued to discuss the situation with the detective. Would it have helped? Doubt it, but had it worked it would have been worth it.
> ...



Tagged for later.


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## Marine0311 (Oct 14, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Tagged for later.



As always I am looking forward to your detailed, well thought out replies.


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## policemedic (Oct 14, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> I've read through the entire thread from page 01 and found comments from @TLDR20 @Muppet and @policemedic that struck me the most.
> 
> 
> While I have zero-percent doubt in _your_ ability to gain tactical control of the situation, I hate this particular mentality implied - the worst thing you can do when a cop gets out of line is make an attempt to get physically involved. He's the guy with the gun, he's the guy with the "con" and if push came to shove there are a lot more guys that'll stack that doorway with his needs in mind first. Her colleagues appeared to be following along through the situation including during the arrest. One could have addressed her directly to calm down while the other continued to discuss the situation with the detective. Would it have helped? Doubt it, but had it worked it would have been worth it.
> ...



Let me try to address this in the order you’ve set things out.

From your perspective, the arrest wasn’t overly rough.  Looking at it through the lens of military training where interpersonal violence is a matter of day-to-day routine in training, it probably isn’t violent.  But constitutionally it is, and it was avoidable.  Assuming, _arguendo_, an arrest was warranted he could have made it in many other ways, including asking her to step outside of the unit so it wasn’t done in front of patients or colleagues.  Had he not been so argumentative in his dealings with her—no doubt the result of his certainty he was dealing with someone who was in contempt of cop—he could have easily deescalated the situation.  Honestly, you’d be amazed how often a simple (forceful but polite) order to “put your hands behind your back, you’re under arrest” results in compliance.  Given the situation and educational levels involved here, an approach that didn’t involve multiple threats followed by lunging, grabbing and dragging the nurse would likely have resulted in compliance with the (illegal) arrest.

As to the use of handcuffs generally, they can be used to temporarily detain someone who may be violent or likely to flee during a Terry stop (an investigative detention or what has come to be misleadingly called a ‘stop and frisk’).  I’ve done so many times, but they aren’t a negotiating tool to manage situations.  They are temporary restraints used to ensure everyone’s safety.

The detective is a paramedic.  That means he completely understands what a charge nurse is.  Importantly, she wasn’t just any charge nurse.  She was in charge of the burn unit.  Burn unit assignment requires specialty training, and assignment as charge requires even more faith in one’s professional ability.  While charge nurses generally don’t take patient assignments, they can tag in when a RN needs a break, etc.  Removing one from the unit would likely affect the care of many patients.  These are all things the detective can be assumed to have known; hospital operations should not be foreign to him.

This brings us back to the decision to arrest.  If she was truly breaking the law, he could have arrested her at a later date with a warrant.  We do it all the time.  However, at least in PA, her conduct had not even remotely approached the level of criminality.  Had the detective gone to the patient’s room and she physically blocked his access or directed someone else to do so, then we’ve got something.  But that didn’t happen.

Now, let’s look at decision making.  

Payne is a detective with 27 years on the job.  I’m in my 26th, so we’re similar in that respect.  Detectives and patrol officers have different job functions that result in slightly different bodies of knowledge and expertise.  Detectives are generally presumed to have a more in-depth knowledge of investigative techniques and the laws surrounding their use than patrol officers, though both may obtain warrants and other judicial process.  One way to look at it is detectives should be more strategic thinkers where patrol officers tend to be more tactical.  There is also the additional and very pertinent fact that Payne is a paramedic who should not be unfamiliar with what medical care will be provided to the truck driver whose blood he sought to draw.  I say all that to say that there were other simpler, completely unconfrontational avenues that could have been pursued to get the information he wanted.  As a detective, he can be assumed to have known this; using legal process to get information is conservatively 40% of a detective’s job function.

The fact that Payne believed it was legal, ethical, and moral to effect an arrest to obtain blood for an accident that didn’t occur in his jurisdiction when the patient couldn’t consent, was not going to be charged, and when he clearly knew there was no probable cause for the issuance of a warrant (he was heard saying as much on body camera footage) simply shocks my conscience as a professional police officer.  

There is the issue of the lieutenant’s order, of course.  Similar to the military, Payne had no obligation to follow an order he should have known to be illegal and unconstitutional.  To briefly address the LT’s order, you have to understand that in most police departments a LT is a highly ranked individual.  In my cop shop, rank goes P/O, DET, CPL, DET SGT, SGT, LT, CPT and then deputy chiefs and the chief herself.  For someone that senior to give an order like that, without even being on the scene, boggles the fucking mind.

Quite frankly, the only acceptable course of action for Payne would have been to contact the assigned investigator in the Logan Police Department (where the accident occurred) and suggest that they obtain a warrant for the truck driver’s medical records if they felt there was sufficient probable cause to move forward.  The hospital undoubtedly did blood testing that would served the same purpose as Payne drawing forensic labs, if there was cause to conduct a criminal investigation focused on the truck driver.  But there wasn’t, and Payne knew it.

I will go out on a limb and say this is not the first time Payne has let his ego get in the way of his good sense, and it isn’t the first time he has mistreated someone.  I’m not sorry he no longer has a badge.


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## trin (Oct 14, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Let me try to address this in the order you’ve set things out.



Very well laid out.  I appreciate your perspective on this situation.



> I will go out on a limb and say this is not the first time Payne has let his ego get in the way of his good sense, and it isn’t the first time he has mistreated someone.  I’m not sorry he no longer has a badge.



That would not surprise me in the least.  I'm not sorry, either.


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## Grunt (Oct 15, 2017)

@policemedic, well said my brother!

Well said, indeed....


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 15, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Let me try to address this in the order you’ve set things out.
> 
> From your perspective, the arrest wasn’t overly rough.  Looking at it through the lens of military training where interpersonal violence is a matter of day-to-day routine in training, it probably isn’t violent.  But constitutionally it is, and it was avoidable.  Assuming, _arguendo_, an arrest was warranted he could have made it in many other ways, including asking her to step outside of the unit so it wasn’t done in front of patients or colleagues.  Had he not been so argumentative in his dealings with her—no doubt the result of his certainty he was dealing with someone who was in contempt of cop—he could have easily deescalated the situation.  Honestly, you’d be amazed how often a simple (forceful but polite) order to “put your hands behind your back, you’re under arrest” results in compliance.  Given the situation and educational levels involved here, an approach that didn’t involve multiple threats followed by lunging, grabbing and dragging the nurse would likely have resulted in compliance with the (illegal) arrest.
> 
> ...



Your answer is an incredible wealth of knowledge and a golden example of why I choose to maintain an active membership.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 1, 2017)

*- UPDATE -*

"Ka-Ching."

Utah nurse settles for $500K over rough arrest caught on video
_
SALT LAKE CITY — A Utah nurse who was arrested for refusing to let a police officer draw blood from an unconscious patient settled Tuesday with Salt Lake City and the university that runs the hospital for $500,000._


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