# Knife sharpening techniques for all



## x SF med (May 9, 2015)

Barbarian and I discussed starting this thread, and I'm holding him to helping me spread a little knowledge.

This is going to be a work in progress for a bit, there is a lot that goes into sharpening properly:

Before you even start to sharpen you need this information:

What material is the Blade?
What is the Grain size of the material?
What is the hardness of the material to be edged, and conversely, of the cutting medium?
What will the edge be used for?
What shape is the edge of the knife in? - this could be from raw shaped to overused and rounded off or anything in between.
What is the desired final edge geometry?


You have the information, now you need the tools:

Good  initial sharpening medium which may have to start with files.
Good secondary sharpening medium- usually natural or manufactured stones.
A good lifting medium - it keeps the slurry suspended and keeps the stones cutting - people use everything from spit to simple green to honing oil to food grade mineral oil - some even say dry sharpening is the way to go - I was taught with lifting media as the key.
Good tertiary sharpening (honing) medium. - we will definitely hit this later - it may be your secondary media.
Good final sharpening (stropping or polishing) media. (we'll discuss this later too)
A magnifying device of a minimum 8 power, a magnifying glass or jeweler's loupe works best, and I have 8x, 10x, 15x
Good lighting.
A solid, very solid, work surface with a cover/pad that will keep blades from getting 'dinged' or 'nicked'.
Lots of rags.
No fear of failure, you will fail, miserably, many times before you hit your stride.
Practice, practice, practice.

More to follow.

ETA:  Just a note to all - any input, questions, different technique, tools, or ideas are welcome.  Barbarian and I are facilitators in this, but it's for everybody.


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## pardus (May 10, 2015)

I've been waiting for this for a long time. 
I hope you/someone posts video's as well. 
The angle has always worried me.


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## Barbarian (May 10, 2015)

There are blades made from obsidian, titanium, ceramics, fossilized unicorn penis, and a handful of other exotic materials, but steel is usually the most practical blade material. It's also the most common material, so I'll start here.

Steel is composed of crystals called carbides that are bound together by a matrix of iron, sort of like bricks and mortar. It is the carbides that do the cutting, and it is the job of the sharpener to expose the carbides at the edge of a knife.

When steel is heat treated, these carbides arrange themselves into a grain structure. Under magnification, this structure resembles the grain in wood. The size of the grain structure determines how fine a cutting edge the steel can support. The smaller the grain, the less brittle the cutting edge will be. The size of the grain structure is determined by the chemical composition of the steel, the quality of its manufacture, and the quality of its heat treatment.

To be continued.......


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## x SF med (May 10, 2015)

The additions to steel are not only simple carbides like Carbon, but more exotic metals, niobium, vanadium, chromium, nickel, and other carbide forming items (those that bind better to carbon than the actual iron) have other properties when in conjunction with the steel matrix.  think of steel as the mortar and the carbides as the aggregate, they add strength, toughness, flexibility, harness and reduce the 'spalling' of the matrix.  The smaller the carbides, the finer the edge, but for every change you gain and lose something...  multiple carbides are best delivered in the powdered metals category of tool/knife steels - Elmax and the Crucible steels are the best known among non-metallurgists...  they blend most of the good properties of small carbide steels, and also retain the toughness and resiliency of the carbon only steels.

There are so many steels out there that this could be a long  post.... go look at the Knife Steels Material Science thread on Professional Soldiers, it covers more than most people want to know, to include martensiting, austenization, matrix reliability, how different tempering and hardening and heat treating methods effect different steels.  Bill Harsey et al did an amazing job of putting it all together.

All this is said to point out that no steel is 'better' than another, each steel has it's use, and any one steel can be treated to perform different tasks.   A 440C bladed knife is an amazing tool, it works, if heat treated and tempered properly it is hard and tough and sharpens well with a moderate grain size.  Conversely, Elmax can make a horrible blade if it is not treated properly.

Another caveat-  Particle metals are best suited for stock removal techniques of knife making, and the poured steels are better for forging where the knifemaker has the control of the matrix normalization during the hammering into shape.  (read the referenced thread on the other site)

more to follow....


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## x SF med (May 10, 2015)

Well, now we understand a little about the steel....  we need to start thinking about the multiple geometries of a knife blade.

Would somebody besides barbarian and me post a series of pics of what you think the are the important geometries of the knife blade.


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## CDG (May 10, 2015)

I would guess the angles in this image, specifically the grind line, termination radius, plunge, and cutting edge.  My assumption is that these angles all indicate the ideal angle for sharpening the knife.  I would guess the type of edge and the type of point you want also comes into play.






http://jayfisher.com/Knife_Anatomy_Parts_Names_Definitions.htm






http://www.survivalnewsonline.com/index.php/2013/01/essentials-of-knife-sharpening/












http://www.knife-depot.com/learn/pocket-knife-buying-guide/

ETA links to all pics posted.  I ran a Google search for "knife blade geometry" and these were the pics I decided on posting.  I visited Jay Fisher's site and read a little more in detail.  The second pic is also the original product of that site, but I had trouble finding it and posted the link Google gave through the "Visit Page" button.


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## 0699 (May 10, 2015)

Can I just mail you my knife?  Then you can send it back when it's sharpened.  :wall:


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## policemedic (May 10, 2015)

0699 said:


> Can I just mail you my knife?  Then you can send it back when it's sharpened.  :wall:


 
I second the motion.


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## x SF med (May 10, 2015)

0699 said:


> Can I just mail you my knife?  Then you can send it back when it's sharpened.  :wall:



I will sharpen your lovely HH6's kitchen knives for her, happily. and for free.  You, need to learn... so shut up and read Marine.


@ CDG.... Boo Hiss.... I meant pics of one of your knives with what you thought were the important geometries....  BUT.... I have that page bookmarked in my favorites.  You need to add the link to your post, and give full credit to the author, it is his intellectual property.


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## policemedic (May 10, 2015)

I've got a fair quality knife at home; I'll take a pic and mark it up when I get home.


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## HOLLiS (May 10, 2015)

0699 said:


> Can I just mail you my knife?  Then you can send it back when it's sharpened.  :wall:



My solution is simple,   1) invite XF SF over for copious amounts of beer and BBQ and tell him a story of WOE of how dull the knives are.   Trolls are suckers for copious amounts of beer and BBQ.


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## Barbarian (May 10, 2015)

While we’re waiting for someone to post a pic of their knife blade, let’s talk about edge types, and how they relate to sharpening, since @CDG went through all the trouble of finding and posting that stuff. Thanks, by the way.

Take a close look at the "V" ground edge, Hollow Ground Edge, the Compound Edge, and the Chisel Edge. These are the types that you're most likely to see on folding and fixed-blade knives, so let’s discuss them.

The “V” Ground edge is one of the oldest known edges, and is often referred to as a “Scandinavian” grind. It has been found on Norse, Roman, and Greek blades, and even outdates the use of iron. It consists of one set of flat bevels that taper from the full width of the blade, down to the sharpened edge, and allows the sharpener to lay one large, flat surface against the sharpening abrasive. While being easy to hold at the correct angle while sharpening, it also requires the removal of much more steel to bring the edge back to its original sharpness, thus taking longer to sharpen. Another difficulty associated with this type of edge, is that the abrupt taper from full width to cutting edge makes cutting more difficult in instances where the entire blade must pass through the object being cut.

The Compound Edge is comprised of two sets of bevels-the long and gradual “master” bevel, and the more obtuse micro-bevel which functions as the cutting edge. This edge configuration generates the least amount of friction when passing through an object and lends itself toward activities such as food preparation, carving and “batonning”.

The Hollow Ground Edge, like the Compound Edge, is made up of two pairs of bevels: one long and shallow, one short and somewhat steeper. The difference is that the master bevels of the Hollow grind are concave. This allows the blade to have a better reinforced spine, while keeping the same cutting edge geometry. It is sharpened (in most cases) just like the Compound Edge.

And now the Chisel Edge…. The chisel edge is rarely seen on factory knives, and is most often seen on high-end semi-custom or full custom blades. Occasionally it’s seen on kitchen knives.  The Chisel Edge excels at cutting even. Many prefer this type of edge due to its perceived ease of sharpening, as it is completely flat on one side. The other side usually resembles a Compound or Hollow ground edge. While the beveled side of the blade is sharpened like normal, many overlook that the flat side of the cutting edge needs attention too. Sharpening only one side leaves a wicked burr or “wire edge” on the flat side, and this must be remove for the knife to reach its full potential sharpness.

Ok, now lets see some blade photos….


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## Ranger Psych (May 10, 2015)

There's 3 different blades to start off with. I can go get more if needed, if a Pacific and a USAF Survival would be germaine... but they require retrieval from gear/vehicles they're assigned to stay with, where these are on the desk.


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## compforce (May 10, 2015)

Boning knives (kitchen) are often converted from V or convex to chisel edge.

x-sf, what do you think of this video series?  It's pretty close to the way that I do mine.

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLsSxXLQSZIe__A5THcrFGto9_PSkXWiN6


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## Ooh-Rah (May 10, 2015)

@x SF med and @Barbarian :

Okay, in the spirit of attempting to follow simple directions, here are five of my blades that get regular use.

- Benchmade Barrage - my EDC

-  ESSE 3 - something I bought to have for my SHTF bag

-  Wanderer - from our very own @Barbarian

-  Benchmade Mini Griptillian - my EDC when I have to wear dress pants (I like the serrated edge, can this be sharpened?)

-  Cold Steel Tanto - one of my favorites because I like the tanto look but have no idea how to sharpen the front

Regarding the geometries - I have not touched the ESSE or the Wanderer yet, but I think that I would want to stay at an angle of the silver part of the exposed blade.  If I get into the black or brown paint, my angles are all off.






-  The sharpener's I have been using.  Neither of which I really have any idea how to use properly

When sharpening I try to keep the same consistent angle and if I am be honest, use the thumb buttons as guides to hold an angle on the diamond sharpener.

The deal with the blue handle is supposed to be great, but I've never understood if I should keep the blade straight up and down, or at a slight angle.

I seem to have the most success sharpening the tanto, I believe because it is a straight edge (minus the tip).  The two Benchmades screw me up because of the angled tip.

When I sharpen I tend to push the blade forward 3 times, flip and repeat.  I do this about three times.  Then I finish it off on a leather strap.

That's all I'll post for not about my knife sharpening, because that is all I know.

If when I am told that I am fucking up more than I am helping, and that I'd be better off not doing anything at all vs. what I am attempting to do, I will not be butt hurt.  I just want to learn.


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## Ranger Psych (May 10, 2015)

Personally, I'm not a fan of the carbide sharpeners. They literally scrape material off the knife in order to reshape the edge. Part of what makes it cut is the fact that if you really look close, the edge is sorta serrated across the entire blade once you use one of them. It's a quick and easy way to screw things up, especially since you can't configure angles and use media to sharpen that is appropriate for the metal the blade's made of.


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## x SF med (May 11, 2015)

Ranger Psych said:


> the edge is sorta serrated across the entire blade once you use one of them



and.....  one point is already raised.... any microserration on the edge of a blade should only be from the carbides standing out from the matrix, not introduced/left by your sharpening media..

@compforce  - the series is great for kitchen knives.   I'm not a fan of the pull method of sharpening, I prefer the push method.  One reason being I find the burr raises too quickly on the pull method while also removing more material from the edge.  I have used a modified circular method too...  it is a push pull, but requires lots and lots of practice to balance both sides of the edge
The guy in the video raised an excellent point about feeling the edge on the stone - you must do that throughout the sharpening process, as well as listen and watch...the least reliable of the 3 is watching from my experience.

@Ooh-Rah  - step away from the carbide sharpener, step away slowly and keep your hands in the air until told to drop them. 
The only time to use one of them is if you quickly need to rough angle an edge that is basically flat....  it is an atom bomb sharpener.... have you noticed curls of steel or large amounts of powdered steel collecting when you use it?   It's because it literally planes off large amounts of steel on each pass.
The Cabela's branded e-zlap you have is great.... for reshaping blade tips when somebody uses your knife as a screwdriver....  ever noticed the edge of your knife looks like wood somebody has gone after with 100 grit sand paper when you use it?  It's because that's exactly what you've done...  keep reading.... we will get to recommended equipment in a little while.

@Ranger Psych ....  a Devil's Toothpick?  Now that is badass...

I guess I will have to post a pic of  sharpening project knives I have around here...  an old Effingham Blackjack Mamba....   multiple recurves and the previous owner(s?) look to have used the 'belt sander' or grinder method of sharpening....  it does not look like the temper is gone, which is good....  another is a hugely abused Gerber MkII with the original aluminum handle and a 4 digit serial number (six digit for the military contract, but leading zeroes are not counted for placing purposes) - this one may never be worth a lot ever again, but I will try...  somebody used too shallow an angle for years when sharpening, and somebody else used too steep an angle...  the belly of the knife is no longer truly discernible....


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## policemedic (May 11, 2015)

View attachment 13244  

As far as sharpening goes, I think the overall curve of the cutting edge, the angle and type of the edge, and the grind of the blade are important to the overall process.


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## x SF med (May 11, 2015)

policemedic said:


> As far as sharpening goes, I think the overall curve of the cutting edge, the angle and type of the edge, and the grind of the blade are important to the overall process.


Yes.  It looks like you may have sharpened that Spartan Hunter with a diamond system...  it doesn't look like the polished edge that Mark sends out after using the Wicked Edge system.  I may have seen a few of their knives in all stages of manufacture, from prototype to full production.


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## policemedic (May 11, 2015)

It's actually a Difensa (kind of perfect for me with its Canadian heritage and US manufacture), and I haven't taken a stone to it yet.  Haven't had to, and honestly I don't want to mess with it until I'm more confident.  The photo is just probably not showing the edge detail very well.

Is the Wicked Edge system usable by lay people, so to speak?


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## x SF med (May 11, 2015)

policemedic said:


> ...
> 
> Is the Wicked Edge system usable by lay people, so to speak?



Got $$$...  then yes...  I think they start at $250 for a base model.

(and I was using the original name for the design, my bad)


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## policemedic (May 11, 2015)

x SF med said:


> Got $$$...  then yes...  I think they start at $250 for a base model.



I guess the value is determined by how easy it is to use, how many knives you have and how frequently you sharpen them.


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## Ranger Psych (May 11, 2015)

Just eyeballed the wicked edge..... Not to take anything away from it, but it looks like a baseplate mounted variation on the Lansky-esque style of sharpening.  That thing is really tempting, given how stout the guide rods the stones ride on are, as well as how the anchoring system for maintaining angle is.

Angle controlled sharpening using a Lansky, or better Gatco, or finally the Wicked Edge system, is by far one of the easiest sharpening techniques there is.  I personally have only used the Gatco and Lansky systems, and prefer the Gatco due to a heavier guide rod (out of better metal, too) that doesn't deflect nor bend as much as the Lansky which is neigh potmetal. The stones on the Gatco are also wider than the Lansky, and the overall kit does allow rapid and relatively accurate sharpening, all things said and done.

I'll be honest, looking at the Wicked Edge reminded me of one of many accidents, and the feel of an edge parting flesh. Stupid sharp has it's disadvantages, but when you know that a knife will cut anything.... you treat it with the respect it deserves, instead of being used to a variable "one slice, one saw, or one hack?" with a modicum of knives both yours and property of others.  That might be next month's shiny, if I don't do other things. We'll see...


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## x SF med (May 11, 2015)

@Ranger Psych  and @policemedic - I have a lot of knives, but I like to sharpen knives, it's therapeutic for me. Especially when I've got a friend's knife that has been damaged, like a tip broken off where the entire tip has to be reshaped by hand, or somebody found a rock with the edge and it has a rather significant gouge in it.

I would think about a wicked Edge if I really started a knife sharpening business ...


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## Barbarian (May 11, 2015)

My Spartan/Harsey Hunter also came with a bit of a tooth on it.


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## Kettenhund (May 12, 2015)

Oh this segment is awesome!!  I so need to learn how to sharpen the knives I have.  I own a Lansky and I've swapped out many of the stones for diamond stones.  I just need how to use the damn thing properly.

I'll show my knives and you'll know instantly which ones I've attempted to sharpen.  Where is the "bang head" emoticon when you need it?? LOL.

They are all Strider blades.  The folder is my duty knife and I carry it everyday, pretty much.  The Tanto is a discontinued modle and I wear it attached to my vest while kayaking.  I've beet the crud out of that knife and it comes back looking for more.  The large fixed knife is in my BOB.  I've not touched that edge, thankfully.


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## Red Flag 1 (May 12, 2015)

Kettenhund said:


> Oh this segment is awesome!!  I so need to learn how to sharpen the knives I have.  I own a Lansky and I've swapped out many of the stones for diamond stones.  I just need how to use the damn thing properly.
> 
> I'll show my knives and you'll know instantly which ones I've attempted to sharpen.  Where is the "bang head" emoticon when you need it?? LOL.
> 
> ...



Here's the "bang head" for ya :wall:,....


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## x SF med (May 13, 2015)

We are going to start discussing blade shapes, and there are different techniques needed for sharpening some of them.

We will start with an easy to sharpen edge profile: the Wharncliffe or Sheepsfoot.  (essentially the same edge profile)
Question to the gallery: Why would this be an "easy" to sharpen design?


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## Ooh-Rah (May 13, 2015)

x SF med said:


> Question to the gallery: Why would this be an "easy" to sharpen design?



Full disclosure, I had to Google what a Wharncliffe looks like.

With that out of the way, I would think this type of blade would be considered 'easy' to sharpen because it is a straight flat edge with no noticeable curves. The pics that I looked at reminded me somewhat of a straight razor used for shaving.   You should be able to maneuver the blade in one direction without losing your angle.


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## Kettenhund (May 13, 2015)

I'm guessing that both have no radius and all the work is done perpendicular to the straight edge?  I know I've struggled with sharpening at the radius.  For me and the Lansky sharpener, the longer the blade the tougher it has been to get the radius to look consistent.


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## x SF med (May 13, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Full disclosure, I had to Google what a Wharncliffe looks like.
> 
> ...



FAIL.  there is a pic on page 1 of this thread.

As to the reasoning... pretty good, for both you and @Kettenhund - but the motion for sharpening is not in straight lines, anybody want to guess why?


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## pardus (May 14, 2015)

x SF med said:


> FAIL.  there is a pic on page 1 of this thread.
> 
> As to the reasoning... pretty good, for both you and @Kettenhund - but the motion for sharpening is not in straight lines, anybody want to guess why?



Hmm, my instinct was to say because the surface of the stone is not smooth and a straight line would/could cause lines/grooves/an uneven/serrated surface on the blade, but I'm not sure if that's right or not. :-/


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## Dienekes (May 14, 2015)

x SF med said:


> the motion for sharpening is not in straight lines, anybody want to guess why?


I would guess it has something to do with grain structures and carbides mentioned earlier as well as minimizing the burr.


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## x SF med (May 14, 2015)

pardus said:


> Hmm, my instinct was to say because the surface of the stone is not smooth and a straight line would/could cause lines/grooves/an uneven/serrated surface on the blade, but I'm not sure if that's right or not. :-/



The kiwi is the first winner! 

An almost circular motion reduces introducing 'sharpening lines' into the edge, partially by spreading the slurry evenly on the sharpening media - the slurry is the 'glop' of oil/water + cut steel + reduced sharpening media that ends up actually evening the medial to the 'rated' grit...  because sharpening media are 'gritted' by the median grain size...  this is mostly overcome in the artificial stones by sizing the grit much more closely- you still have the mastic which is a much smaller grit, and the steel shavings which should be pretty close to the grit size.

People think that the burr is a bad thing...  when you are finished - yes, but raising the burr (also known as the 'wire edge') is a very important part of the sharpening process.


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## x SF med (May 14, 2015)

Here are older pics of what I practice on, not including the kitchen knives:


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## x SF med (May 14, 2015)

Okay...  lifting agents....   I believe in them, I tend to use food grade mineral oil, but have been known under advisement by Wayne Goddard, Bill Harsey, Ken Onion, Ken Brock, Gary Melton (who admits he is not great at sharpening), Gene Lake, and others (Yeah, I've been to a few too many knife shows for most people):
Simple Green
WD40
Used Motor Oil
Olive Oil
Vegetable oil
melted Crisco
Specialty honing oils of various flavors/manufacturers

As you can see it's basically dealer's choice... something that will lift and suspend the cut steel is what is important.

NEVER use anything but water on a Japanese water stone, ever... except when cleaning...  a tiny amount of mild detergent, and possibly a nagura stone to even the face.  I do store my Japanese water stone in water with a little bit of tincture of green soap to inhibit any microbial growth so it is always ready for use.


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## pardus (May 14, 2015)

x SF med said:


> Okay...  lifting agents....   I believe in them, I tend to use food grade mineral oil, but have been known under advisement by Wayne Goddard, Bill Harsey, Ken Onion, Ken Brock, Gary Melton (who admits he is not great at sharpening), Gene Lake, and others (Yeah, I've been to a few too many knife shows for most people):
> Simple Green
> WD40
> Used Motor Oil
> ...



OK so now you opened the question, Jap water stone vs stone that requires oil etc... Which, why? Pros and cons.


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## x SF med (May 14, 2015)

pardus said:


> OK so now you opened the question, Jap water stone vs stone that requires oil etc... Which, why? Pros and cons.



We're getting there.... and the answer is yes.   I use Metal based diamond stones for certain applications, but maily stick to oil based stones for sharpening, then Japanese water stones for initial polish, then a bench strop with Aluminum oxide polishing compound for a final polish....  and don't forget the poplar or birch burr reducer.... 

here is a good site for sharpening stones....   Norton Industrial Abrasives  I use a medium/fine (grey 600/orange800) Norton stone in a stand I made.  Then take it to a 1000 Japanese water stone and then to a 4000 grit bench strop.

My sharpening gear (less the Japanese water stone and the 1 gal bottle of mineral oil) fits into an average sized daypack - this includes towels, and the Booker's box of assorted tools, ceramic sticks, files, loupe, torx/Phillips/flat drivers, a carbide cutter/sharpener for those fully trashed edges and my Norton stone.


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## CDG (May 14, 2015)

What, if any, type of field expedient sharpening kit did you carry in your ruck with you @x SF med?  Or did you carry the set-up you described above?


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## x SF med (May 14, 2015)

CDG said:


> What, if any, type of field expedient sharpening kit did you carry in your ruck with you @x SF med?  Or did you carry the set-up you described above?



A good 2 faced stone that would accept water or oil based lifting agents...  and yes, I have used military issue bug juice as a lifting agent in the field, or squeezed the oil out of C-Rat or MRE cheese or peanut butter, or used spit, or pond water (my purified water was for me)... the polishing aspect of sharpening is great, but having a knife that's sharp enough for defense or survival is more important.  In the field, a 3 sided ceramic stone is good for touch ups or a quick edge polish - but remember, the less stable the sharpening platform the more liable you are to round the edge.


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## Ranger Psych (May 14, 2015)

Personally, I packed my Gatco system and a leather belt in my D bag and just had a single 4" long medium grit stone circa what comes with the (still?) issued USAF Survival knife in my shave kit in the ruck. The one that comes with the survival knife is adequate for most purposes. I personally would venture that all the multi-angle stuff is more for "proper" maintenance, both preventative and remedial, on edges.

Especially with how we roll now, you'll see that D-bag before you outrun the edge on your knife if you're not a meathead that sticks knives in the ground etc.  Given the time, you can still do a good job with a medium grit stone plus a riggers belt as a strop, considering that while it's of variable grit your belt will collect dust and crap that functions as a cutting media on your impromptu strop.


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## Barbarian (May 14, 2015)

x SF med said:


> Okay...  lifting agents....   I believe in them, I tend to use food grade mineral oil, but have been known under advisement by Wayne Goddard, Bill Harsey, Ken Onion, Ken Brock, Gary Melton (who admits he is not great at sharpening), Gene Lake, and others (Yeah, I've been to a few too many knife shows for most people):
> Simple Green
> WD40
> Used Motor Oil
> ...



Just a note. If you search for mineral oil online, you'll get many more results if you search for "pharmacopeia grade" mineral oil instead of "food grade". I prefer mineral oil as well. It's cheap and works as well as anything. Though chemicals in it can cause your babys to be born nekkid.


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## Ranger Psych (May 14, 2015)

It also makes interesting computer builds if you want to get really funky with things.


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## compforce (May 14, 2015)

Barbarian said:


> Just a note. If you search for mineral oil online, you'll get many more results if you search for "pharmacopeia grade" mineral oil instead of "food grade". I prefer mineral oil as well. It's cheap and works as well as anything. Though chemicals in it can cause your babys to be born nekkid.



Disclaimer: I don't use a utility knife very often any more.  Usually it's just my leatherman to open boxes and such.  My main sharpening efforts are kitchen knives now.  I have some very high quality asian knives so I take really good care of them.  (Asymmetrical V and Semi-convex)

Let me make it easy for you on the mineral oil side...  This is what I use.  http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0017ID92K/  One bottle for my tristone.  Everything else is water based.  This oil can also be used on wooden cutting boards safely.

Here are my stones:

http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0001MSA72/  Tristone
http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H6JDFA/  Water stone (1000 grit)
http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H6FSGI/  Water stone (4000 grit)
http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B000H6JDFU/ Water stone (8000 grit)
http://smile.amazon.com/gp/product/B0000DD21Y/  Stone holder

I use the tristone for rough/chipped edges and restoring if a knife drops and breaks the point
1000 for a knife that hasn't been sharpened in a long time
4000 is normally where I start since I don't let my knives get too bad before I resharpen.  Once a month at the longest
8000 is the final polish on mine.  I don't strop them, just use the really fine stone.
The water stones come with a case that will work as a base, but I like having a firm anchor that won't slip

I also have some kitchen specific stuff that you don't really need for other types of knives.
Diamond sharpening rod (flat)
Diamond sharpening rod (round)
Honing rod


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## x SF med (May 14, 2015)

@compforce - we're going to wait on semi-convex techniques, they require lots of practice and a 'feel' for the shape that takes a very skilled hand to get right, especially on fine taper blades like a kitchen knife, or a sword/saber.

You do bring up a very good point about the tools for sharpening fitting the job for the blade - a field/utility/work blade does not usually require the polish that a kitchen knife does - the biggest exception being fine woodworking tools.

You also bring us to the next point of thought - edge angles.  the steeper the angle the more chance to chip, dull, or mar the edge.  convex or semi-convex grinds mitigate this by using the power of the arc/arch to add strength to the edge, but are MUCH harder to get right. Next in strength is a stepped or complex/multibevel where your actual edge has 2 or more angles per side (exclusive of the drop from the spine, or primary angle. the attachment is not great, but I'm not a paint expert, it'll give you an idea of a standard geometry:


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## compforce (May 14, 2015)

x SF med said:


> @compforce - we're going to wait on semi-convex techniques, they require lots of practice and a 'feel' for the shape that takes a very skilled hand to get right, especially on fine taper blades like a kitchen knife, or a sword/saber.
> 
> You do bring up a very good point about the tools for sharpening fitting the job for the blade - a field/utility/work blade does not usually require the polish that a kitchen knife does - the biggest exception being fine woodworking tools.
> 
> ...



yup, just wanted to get the links out there for folks.  Wasn't trying to jump into your lesson plan, just links to the equipment.  Heck, I didn't even mention that my knives are CroMoVa steel (which is too hard for most basic stones, thus the diamond sharpening/honing rods and high quality industrial water stones).  But that's a discussion for much later...


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## compforce (May 14, 2015)

OK, so here is a real picture of a double bevelled knife.  I put red lines so everyone can see where the two bevels are located.  Technically this one is double bevelled asymmetric semi-convex edge, which is why the bevels photograph so clearly.



Pop quiz.  this is an edge-on view of a knife held up to a flourescent light.  What is the shape of the edge on it?  (for those that are learning, not you Troll).  Please be specific.  The grey fuzzy thing at the top is the actual cutting edge, which is too fine for the camera's resolution.





























To keep the thread from devolving, here's the answer:  It's an asymmetric double bevelled V.  The first bevel is clear in the pic, the second bevel is only on the edge on the left of the pic where the cutting edge starts, right where it starts to fuzz out.  This is a right-handed asian style chef's knife.  The final bevel is 60 degrees on the picture's left and single bevelled 30 degrees on the right.


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## x SF med (May 15, 2015)

@Ooh-Rah  - you asked about sharpening a Tanto style blade.  Treat each cutting edge as a separate knife, start with the slicing edge, then sharpen the thrusting edge.   Be careful... you have to keep the angles right and not slice off digits as you work.

I just sharpened a buddy's Tanto bladed folder tonight, and then while I was a it, touched up the little Boker and the Sebenza.  Be careful lending knives once you get addicted to keeping them sharp, people are idiots and expect to be handed a butterknife, not a straight razor when they borrow your pocket knife. Hand them a 1.5" properly sharpened tool and they end up in the ER getting stitches, spouting about "I didn't think a little knife would be that sharp..."   to which I usually answer, "What the fuck do you think a scalpel is, idiot?  It's a very sharp little knife, right?"

Which leads us to.....   initial inspection of a blade prior to sharpening.

And....   where do we start with the inspection?   Anybody?  What tools do you think are needed?


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## Ooh-Rah (May 15, 2015)

x SF med said:


> And.... where do we start with the inspection? Anybody? What tools do you think are needed?



Sigh...I answer only to communicate the level of incompetence you are dealing with.  (but I'm reading and learning )

My current level of inspection is pulling my thumb across the blade for resistance, seeing if it will drag across my finger nail, and determining if I get resistance trying to slice thru a gas receipt.  Based on what I've read so far, I would imagine a magnifying glass would come into play somewhere.  For what?  Again, talking out of ignorance, but I would think you'd use the glass to inspect the blade for any dings/dents that may need special attention paid to it.


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## CDG (May 15, 2015)

I've also always used the shave a fingernail or slice a piece of paper test for sharpness.


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## Barbarian (May 15, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Sigh...I answer only to communicate the level of incompetence you are dealing with.  (but I'm reading and learning )
> 
> My current level of inspection is pulling my thumb across the blade for resistance, seeing if it will drag across my finger nail, and determining if I get resistance trying to slice thru a gas receipt.  Based on what I've read so far, I would imagine a magnifying glass would come into play somewhere.  For what?  Again, talking out of ignorance, but I would think you'd use the glass to inspect the blade for any dings/dents that may need special attention paid to it.



Glass is especially helpful for identifying any leftover  burrs , any deformities at the very tip of the edge, or any area that has been missed by the stones due to wobbly hands. Any of these will cause the edge not to cut as well as it can.


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## x SF med (May 15, 2015)

Actually the first piece of equipment you need is your eyeballs. 

Is there any rust, are there any huge dings in the blade, is the blade itself straight and true (every blade has a very slight bend to it, but if it's discernible to the naked eye there is something wrong).

Hold the handle of the knife (fixed or folder) just below and in front of your dominant eye, with the blade pointing away from you, at a light. line up the knife so you are looking right down the cutting edge. do you see any shiny spots along the actual hairline edge (should be blurry because it's sharp) of the cutting surface?  Those are flat spots, missed areas from sharpening or damage from use/normal wear. are the sides of the edge consistent with the type of grind.  follow the cutting edge by rolling the knife the same way the blade geometry is made and do this inspection from ricasso/base to tip. 

Now, get out your magnifying device and do the same thing, you will really see the micro-serrations of the matrix/aggregate structure of the steel if you use a 15x magnifier (I use a jeweler's loupe) and the flat spots/dings.   Pay special attention to the 'wall' geometry leading up to the cutting edge, are they even in depth, angle and smoothness?  These let you know if the knife is going to need special attention anywhere.  Can you see a wire edge, or does the edge look 'bent' to one side?  we can fix that later, but know it's there.

A fine grease pencil to mark areas that need attention, or just a pencil/fine sharpie, is really helpful.

NOW, is the handle loose - fixed or folder, this is important, are the scales handle wrap tight, is there a large amount of dust or grit in a folder's action, is there dirt in the sheath.  Generally, is the knife in good shape?

Take a break, have a drink of water....  and get the next knife out and start over.


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## Mac_NZ (May 15, 2015)

My blades, the Victorinon multi tool (not pictured) gets the most work.  The Buck/Strider is a breeze to sharpen, the GB I'm still not happy with the edge after owning it for 8 years, S30V is the devil and the only reason I own diamond stones now.


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## x SF med (May 16, 2015)

You need to use more pressure while sharpening with harder and smaller grain steels.

One of the biggest errors people make, is too light a touch while sharpening...  you are removing hardened steel, it takes force.


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## Barbarian (May 16, 2015)

Mac_NZ said:


> View attachment 13280 My blades, the Victorinon multi tool (not pictured) gets the most work.  The Buck/Strider is a breeze to sharpen, the GB I'm still not happy with the edge after owning it for 8 years, S30V is the devil and the only reason I own diamond stones now.





x SF med said:


> You need to use more pressure while sharpening with harder and smaller grain steels.
> 
> One of the biggest errors people make, is too light a touch while sharpening...  you are removing hardened steel, it takes force.



Excellent posts, Gents. This is an important point. It's important in practice, but also because you won't find it written anywhere, for whatever reason, so I want to emphasize this: 

*The amount of pressure required for sharpening varies, depending on the material of the blade, as well as the material of the stone.*


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## x SF med (May 16, 2015)

Always take a look at a new blade of the design you are sharpening, part of the cutting design is the primary bevel to the cutting bevel, after repeated sharpening (years of heavy use/sharpening) you may have to take down the primary bevel as your first step of sharpening.   Anybody want to guess why?


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## Barbarian (May 30, 2015)

x SF med said:


> Always take a look at a new blade of the design you are sharpening, part of the cutting design is the primary bevel to the cutting bevel, after repeated sharpening (years of heavy use/sharpening) you may have to take down the primary bevel as your first step of sharpening.   Anybody want to guess why?


 
Nobody gonna swing at this one? @Ooh-Rah?


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## Ooh-Rah (May 30, 2015)

@Barbarian  and @x SF med , again, I answer only to participate and demonstrate my lack of knowlege, but reenforce my desire to learn.  I would think the reason you need to take down a much used bevel is that it has been sharpened so many times, that the origional and designed angle is no longer obtainable.  My follow up question to that woud be, can you get to a point where you are actually shaving off noticeable blade in the desire to get the original bevel back?


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## x SF med (May 30, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> My follow up question to that woud be, can you get to a point where you are actually shaving off noticeable blade in the desire to get the original bevel back?



Yes.


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## Barbarian (May 31, 2015)

Attached is a group of diagrams which show three cross sections of a blade. Diagram A shows a blade in new condition.

Diagram B shows the cross section of a blade that has seen years of hard work and sharpening without addressing the blade's primary bevels. As you can see, the area where the primary, and secondary bevels meet is pretty thick.

The final diagram displays a blade which has endured years of use, just like the blade in diagram B, except that the primary bevel has been worked, as @x SF med suggested, until the blade has reached its original cutting geometry.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 2, 2015)

Question - what is the difference between a knife needing to be sharpened vs. just needing a touch-up w/a steel?  After this thread started I realized how much I don't know, and decided to run my ZT against a steel a few times. It was razor sharp again!  

Am I damaging the blade by doing this?


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## compforce (Jun 2, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Question - what is the difference between a knife needing to be sharpened vs. just needing a touch-up w/a steel?  After this thread started I realized how much I don't know, and decided to run my ZT against a steel a few times. It was razor sharp again!
> 
> Am I damaging the blade by doing this?



As you cut with the knife, the edge starts to roll.  If you do it long enough without touching it up, you actually end up with a wire edge.  (Science types like X-SF will also say that the molecules get out of alignment).  You use a steel to move the edge back to straight while removing any microscopic imperfections caused by use.  The steel weakens a slight bit each time you do this.  It's just like bending a paperclip back and forth, each time you do it, it gets weaker until it finally breaks.  Sharpening takes off the very edge off the knife, which is the weakest part both because it's the thinnest and the part that gets bent the most. So sharpening effectively makes your edge stronger than it was by removing the weak part.  You should sharpen the knife initially, then use a steel until the knife is losing it's edge quickly and then sharpen it again.  For my kitchen knives, I hone them every time I pick them up to use them and I sharpen them about every 2-3 months.

The other thing the honing steel is "supposed" to do is to realign the molecules and to remove any metal dust from the edge.  It does it through magnetism.  Your steel should stick magnetically to iron.  If it doesn't, you aren't using it enough and/or it's a cheaper one.  In either case you aren't getting the full benefit.  Make sure your steel has a magnetic charge!

Steel hones, which is a non-destructive process.  Sharpening removes metal.  If you only sharpen, you are shortening the life of the blade significantly.


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## Barbarian (Jun 2, 2015)

compforce said:


> As you cut with the knife, the edge starts to roll.  If you do it long enough without touching it up, you actually end up with a wire edge.  (Science types like X-SF will also say that the molecules get out of alignment).  You use a steel to move the edge back to straight while removing any microscopic imperfections caused by use.  The steel weakens a slight bit each time you do this.  It's just like bending a paperclip back and forth, each time you do it, it gets weaker until it finally breaks.  Sharpening takes off the very edge off the knife, which is the weakest part both because it's the thinnest and the part that gets bent the most. So sharpening effectively makes your edge stronger than it was by removing the weak part.  You should sharpen the knife initially, then use a steel until the knife is losing it's edge quickly and then sharpen it again.  For my kitchen knives, I hone them every time I pick them up to use them and I sharpen them about every 2-3 months.
> 
> The other thing the honing steel is "supposed" to do is to realign the molecules and to remove any metal dust from the edge.  It does it through magnetism.  Your steel should stick magnetically to iron.  If it doesn't, you aren't using it enough and/or it's a cheaper one.  In either case you aren't getting the full benefit.  Make sure your steel has a magnetic charge!
> 
> Steel hones, which is a non-destructive process.  Sharpening removes metal.  If you only sharpen, you are shortening the life of the blade significantly.



This is correct. Honing with a steel realigns the carbides at the edge, and will not damage your knives.


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## x SF med (Jun 21, 2015)

Any new questions before we head on in to more discussion on sharpening?   I'll try to post more pictures for our Marine Bretheren, we've got a lot of words here and we know they like pictures.:wall:


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## x SF med (Jun 23, 2015)

Here is a link to a pretty good terminology/knife anatomy discussion written by Jay Fisher, a well known custom knifemaker.  there is a lot of information here.  http://www.jayfisher.com/Knife_Anat...tomy_Knife_Parts_Knife_Names_Knife_Components


Here's a link to a discussion of cutting edge angles: http://www.sharpeningsupplies.com/Detailed-Discussion-on-Knife-Sharpening-Angles-W28.aspx


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## Barbarian (Jul 2, 2015)

Sharpening 1:

First, if you are learning to sharpen knives, practice using only knives (wife/GF's kitchen knives
:troll:) that you dont care to screw up; at least until you get the hang of sharpening. Set up your sharpening gear the same way, in the same place every time. Repetition is important to consistent results, as you guys already know. Also, it helps to color the cutting bevel of your knife with a sharpie. This will help you see what metal is and isn't being removed.

If your knife blade is all jacked up, you'll want to start on the course stone. Put sufficient lifting agent (oil) on your stone and spread it around. Place the portion of the blade closest to the handle against the far end of the stone, with the cutting edge facing you. (See photo.)

If your edge is simply dulled and dinged, then the cutting bevel should be flat on each side of the blade. This is good, and means less time/work. If you blade has been subjected to too many quick, field sharpenings without a proper bench sharpening, then the cutting bevels are probably going to be convex, like an axe's cutting edge (unless you've taken the utmost care when field sharpening) and that sucks.

If your bevels are not convex, then you may be able to press the blade against the stone and gently rock the blade back and forth until you feel out the correct angle at which to sharpen the knife. If the cutting bevels ARE convex, then you'll have to reassign the proper angle to each side. I'll come back to this later, but this is where the sharpie trick really comes in handy.

Now make your stroke, trying to run the entire length of the blade (bottom to point) against the stone, before you reach the end of the stone. The longer your sharpening stone is, the fewer strokes you'll have to make. If you watch closely, you will see a small wave in the lifting agent, in front of the part of the blade that is in contact with the stone. You want to keep the blade's point of contact perpendicular to the direction you are dragging it. While doing this, it's crucial to maintain the same angle for the entire length of the stroke.  This is the part of sharpening that takes repetition and practice to get the hang of.

As you draw the blade against the stone, you will be tempted to use a second hand to apply pressure to the knife/stone. Don't do it. If you use a second hand, use it only to help steady and mantain the proper sharpening angle and with a VERY light touch. Otherwise the slurry from sharpening will scratch the hell out of  your knife's finish.

Now, switch hands and do the exact same thing on the opposite side of the blade. After every 3-4 strokes on each side, wipe the oil off of the blade and examine it closely, making note of the areas that need more attention.

To be continued.
Questions, comments, and pictures of your girlfriend welcome.


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## Kettenhund (Jul 7, 2015)

OK prepare for a potentially stupid question.  I worry about being able to maintain a consistent, and correct angle throughout the sharpening process.  This is why I thought the Lansky guide type sharpener would be of help.  While I'm able to get a nice edge on the cutting edge parallel with where the guide is clamped, I feel it (or I) lack the ability to do the same justice from the radius to the tip. I think the same area may be problematic for me with no guide and a flat stone.  The prospect of f*cking up my knives is not sitting very well with me and is causing me a fair amount of angst.   Can video be posted here??  I'm one of those guys who learns by watchign and then doing.  I can work off an instruction sheet but seeing it done make it a bit easier for me to grasp.  Yes, I'm a P.I.T.A.  Sorry.


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## Scholar (Jul 8, 2015)

@Kettenhund I really would suggest moving away from a guided system and learning free hand. It takes practice, like everything else in life, but it's worth the time spent to learn how to do it the old fashioned way. My advice on getting the belly of your blade ( the curved portion to the tip) sharp is to start with a cheap easy to sharpen knife (think a Buck Bantam or something similar) and just practice until your body has memorized the mechanics involved with maintaining a similar angle throughout the motion of sharpening. Obviously this is all just my opinion so do what you want, but one day when you're in some third world hell hole and need to put an edge on your pig sticker after using it to open a can of meat, you may thank me


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## Kettenhund (Jul 8, 2015)

Scholar,  I get your point, pun intended.  Perhaps if I was happy with the edge I got from my Lansky, I would not be paying as much attention to this thread as I am.  I dislike the overall job the Lansky does so I really want to get the proper mechanics and tool understood before I screw up my first edge.  I'm sure I can find a cheap blade either from a co-worker that had retired one of pick up a Buck at Walmart.  I've stropped a blade before but I'm sure that is way more forgiving than a course or medium stone.  Once I think I have the technique down, I'kk give it go on my Strider Tanto.  I think that would be a pretty easy first test.

Thanks


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## x SF med (Jul 8, 2015)

Scholar said:


> but one day when you're in some third world hell hole and need to put an edge on your pig sticker after using it to open a can of meat, you may thank me



That's why you always have a p-38 on your dogtags along with your spoon/spork....:wall: ... what you just described is blade abuse. Get one of these, DJ (the designer/maker) had one engraved with an SF crest and my first ODA and sent it to me, it is the best chili devouring implement ever invented and you can have them customized with laser engraving...   Cool Groomsman's gifts for a military wedding?  I think so.


Now....  a few sharpening tools (generally for the more advanced edge monkey) that would seem very unlikely to have in your kit
1. A jeweler's loupe or magnifying glass (min 8x, I have a 10x - 15x)
2. A good flashlight or light source
3. An assortment of sharpies in red, green and black
4. q-tips
5. pipe cleaners
6. canned air or access to a compressor
7. a bench vise with wood sleeves
8. riffling files
9. bastard files in different sizes, widths, lengths, tooth counts - single cut flats, not double cut.
10. sandpaper/wetsand in varying grades
11. polishing coumpound
12. a torx head driver set
13. jewlers screwdrivers
14. #1, 2, 3 Phillips screwdrivers
15. lithium or dielectric grease
16. a micrometer or two

There are even more esoteric items that'll come into play, but these will allow you to sharpen, tune, clean and inspect fixed and folding knives. 

@Barbarian 
Have I left out anything major on the list?


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## Ranger Psych (Jul 9, 2015)

Kettenhund said:


> OK prepare for a potentially stupid question.  I worry about being able to maintain a consistent, and correct angle throughout the sharpening process.  This is why I thought the Lansky guide type sharpener would be of help.  While I'm able to get a nice edge on the cutting edge parallel with where the guide is clamped, I feel it (or I) lack the ability to do the same justice from the radius to the tip. I think the same area may be problematic for me with no guide and a flat stone.  The prospect of f*cking up my knives is not sitting very well with me and is causing me a fair amount of angst.   Can video be posted here??  I'm one of those guys who learns by watchign and then doing.  I can work off an instruction sheet but seeing it done make it a bit easier for me to grasp.  Yes, I'm a P.I.T.A.  Sorry.




If it's an edge with a radius, the best technique I found is to adjust the clamping location so that you've got the center point of that edge "up" in the clamp, and you've got as equal as possible edge to the left/right. Then you'll be fine.

Freehanding is great, but there's a reason that pro's use things like the Wicked Edge or other systems. It's guaranteed repeatable with the proper setup.


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## Barbarian (Jul 9, 2015)

x SF med said:


> @Barbarian
> Have I left out anything major on the list?



That's all the important stuff, I think. I might throw in some acetone. It's handy for cleaning stubborn goo.


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## Scholar (Jul 9, 2015)

@x SF med Well I'm not suggesting anyone use their knife for that purpose, but I've done it before in a pinch and I can see it being necessary in a shoddy situation. My point is that if you have the skills to hone an edge free hand, suddenly your options expand 10 fold. The bottom of a coffee mug is a hell of a touch up tool if you can maintain a consistent edge angle.

Also, I'm gonna have to get one of those sporks. They're  just badass


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## x SF med (Jul 10, 2015)

Scholar said:


> Also, I'm gonna have to get one of those sporks. They're just badass



I use mine all the time.... the wife just rolls her eyes, even though she's a vetran too.  Tell DJ I sent you, he'll only raise the price a little.



Barbarian said:


> That's all the important stuff, I think. I might throw in some acetone. It's handy for cleaning stubborn goo.



I debated throwing acetone, lacquer thinner and goo gone into the list, but decided against it...  mineral oil does a great job for most cleanups, especially if you melt a little green ALO2 8ooo grit polishing compound, always have some handy for the bench strop, and those nasty stains on blades it makes the blades so shiny.

Besides, what acetone can do to micarta, or bone or leather or rubberized handle material is not a pretty sight at all.  Which reminds me, 000 piano wire (high E, for the musically inclined; .0125mm for the engineering types) is great for getting under glued down/gunked down handle materials... make sure you tie wooden handles on the ends, and wear welding or ranching heavy leather gloves - you are basically creating a wire knife/garrotte to get under the material and cut the glue, it will slice right through flesh.

I know what I forgot!   a good supply of microfiber, cotton terry, and well washed diapers for rags...  well washed diapers are a godsend for the areas that require hand polishing, the others are to clean up messes and protect your working area.

If you buy a good stone - buy or make an equally good stand, with grippy feet, a solid sharpening surface is a must.  If you use a Japanese water stone, the rubber mat/netting you use to keep carpets from slipping is great, or a placemat made of similar material, they do not work so well for oil/detergent based lifting agents.

Bill Harsey sometimes uses Simple Green as a lifting agent on his Norton manufactured stones, I've tried it, it works great - but mineral oil is cheaper, so I use it most of the time.

I think the next topics - not tonight - should be prepping and care of sharpening stones, and the debates for and against manufactured and natural stones (remember the Japanese have been manufacturing stones for hundreds of years).  

Think about the pros and cons of both types of stones, and diamond, carbide or ceramic sharpeners.


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## compforce (Jul 10, 2015)

> If you buy a good stone - buy or make an equally good stand, with grippy feet, a solid sharpening surface is a must. If you use a Japanese water stone, the rubber mat/netting you use to keep carpets from slipping is great, or a placemat made of similar material, they do not work so well for oil/detergent based lifting agents.



Drawer liner is the bomb for this.  I have a stand, but Drawer Liner - Grip-it 5 Foot which is in your local grocery store is cheap and works regardless of lifting agent.  I also use it under my cutting boards.


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## x SF med (Aug 8, 2015)

Ok...  a board member needed to borrow some fixed blade sharp pointies for a deployment E&E kit...  a few minor requirements were one had to be stout enough for batoning/chopping/heavy cutting but not so big that it could not be concealed/in a small E&E bag, one had to be carryable without being obtrusive, one had to be for last ditch me or the other guy situations...   My discretion for the actual knives (this person would have gotten my Chris Reeve GB 7" if it fit the bill, or one of my irreplaceable daggers had they fit the bill)

My choices from my collection were:

Bussee Scrap Yard 5" for the batonable/heavy chopper (Not a fan of the maker, but the scrapyard is a solid little packable camp knife)
Concealable EDC - a Buck skeleton Skinner from RMEF - great on the belt fixed blade, has a shackle key, and a scalable hex/gas bottle wrench.  drawback is that it is a bear and 3/4 to sharpen because it is a double recurve edge shape
Me or him knife....  a first production run cold Steel- Kobun wakashabi tanto...(told you this person rated, I got this knife from the founder of BladeTech because he wanted beer money for the evening and his wife told him to downsize his collection)
I spent most of a day inspecting, and resharpening all 3 0f them, right down to polishing the edges on the bench strop.   I Also let this member know that he has to come visit for knife sharpening lessons, because he only uses diamond hones....   I own 3, I use them for re-cutting blade profiles when people do stupid human tricks with their knives and break the tips off, they're as bad as most electric knife sharpeners or the carbide pocket sharpeners (ever noticed the shavings coming off the blade?  they is chunks o' yo knife...)  But my diamond hones are a DMT blue/red, a CRKT pocket wedge, and an EZ-Lap 8"  - the CRKT and EZ-Lap are diamond impregnated D2 Tool steel with channels cut in them...  in some cases, they are faster than using a grinder to re-cut.... I don't know why people use diamond to sharpen for everyday use...  it leaves a very rough cutting edge.

So, I've been practicing myself.... and it hit me, the hardest part about writing this thread, is going back to the learning stage...  forgetting what I know, to make it easy for all of you...  I can't erase the muscle memory for freehanding angles, forget the sounds of an edge cutting properly, not see the way the lifting agent polls, follows the edges and covers the edges in the different stages of sharpening - but I can pay attention to them and figure out ways to explain them.  This is part of the slowdown in getting stuff up here...  and I need a filming/photo assistant who will focus on the knife/stone/angle without getting my ugly mug into it...

I'm working on getting more detailed info up...  please be patient...

Everybody go out and buy good sharpening gear and cheap knives to practice with.... poor quality stones = bad edges.


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## x SF med (Aug 8, 2015)

Kettenhund said:


> I've stropped a blade before but I'm sure that is way more forgiving than a course or medium stone.




Just caught this on my umpteenth time re-reading the thread, and it brings up some Do's and Dont's, suggestions and Admonitions...


Just because you have a coarse stone (grit #<400), or a medium (grit #<600) does not mean you have to use it every time you sharpen..  Coarse is for really evilly abused, bar stock level edges, it rips LOTS of steel off your knife.  Medium is for butterknife level edges, still takes off a lot of steel, but you don't end up with a pile of metal shavings in your lifting medium.
Inspect the edge before you even think about what stone to use, inspect means a light test (hold the knife edge up, point toward a light source and look down the cutting edge from the handle, any shiny spots are flat spots in your edge).  Use a magnifier to look at the edge profile(s) - minimum 8 power magnifying glass, I use 10x and 15x jeweler's loupes  -you can actually see the matrix shifts in the steel, temper changes if the blade has been heated/cooled excessively and stress areas as well as the edge itself.
Do not drink and sharpen, you get a shitty edge at best, end up in the hospital at worst.
Don't get discouraged - it took me a couple of years of consistent practice under the guidance of some stellar knife makers to even get passable at putting a consistent edge on a knife.  Yes, years....   sorry, it really does take time to get this down.
Don't skimp on your equipment, but don't over buy ...  collect the gear as you need/use it...  20, 25, 50, 75, 5 bucks occasionally does not hurt like doing it all at once and saying to yourself .... "Self, this shit is too expensive to use, I just dropped $600 on rocks and crap....  am I an idiot?"  instead of going back later and saying, "holy crap, self, I have a bunch of money tied up in this, I'm glad I enjoy it and my knives are the envy of my friends because they always cut and don't have scratches all over them from sharpening on a coarse stone."
Practice
Practice
relax
use a knife you think you sharpened well
be proud of your efforts and time spent


----------



## SpitfireV (Aug 20, 2015)

Thank you guys for all your efforts in this thread. 

I have a question though but it's a bit outside the remit of the thread. It's about using a strop to sharpen a razor. I'm looking at buying a straight razor soon and I'd like to be able to sharpen it properly before I use it.


----------



## x SF med (Aug 20, 2015)

SpitfireV said:


> Thank you guys for all your efforts in this thread.
> 
> I have a question though but it's a bit outside the remit of the thread. It's about using a strop to sharpen a razor. I'm looking at buying a straight razor soon and I'd like to be able to sharpen it properly before I use it.



Soften the strop, use the natural sag in the strop, lay the razor on the strop spine slightly tilted up away from the leather (~1cm ish), pull the spine towards you first then flip the razor and push the spine away from you.

If you have any doubts, find an old school barber and ask for help.


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## SpitfireV (Aug 20, 2015)

Great, thank you very much.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 27, 2015)

Any thoughts on the Apex 3 Edge Pro Sharpening System?  I've got an opportunity to purchase a lightly used set for $175.


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## x SF med (Aug 27, 2015)

I just looked at it....  it makes me wary that they have their own grit numbering system vs Chosera and Shapton which use gemological Assn grading for grit numbering.  Plus there are a LOT of caveats and 'tricks' on the website for using the system.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 27, 2015)

Thank you for the feedback. I'm working thru the lessons discussed in this thread and seem to be improving. I am more than comfortable passing up this deal based on your concerns.


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## x SF med (Aug 27, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Thank you for the feedback. I'm working thru the lessons discussed in this thread and seem to be improving. I am more than comfortable passing up this deal based on your concerns.



I was at the local gun store down the street (Bitterroot Trading Post, walking distance, bummer...) and found a nice stone... a Norton 2 sided (grey/orange, 6") for $22....  It may be a gift for somebody, or may go into my GFOD bag...  but $22, I couldn't pass it up.  the nice thing about the Norton manufactured stones, you ask?  You can use any lifting agent you desire...  water, oil or detergent based...


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## Red Flag 1 (Aug 28, 2015)

x SF med said:


> I was at the local gun store down the street (Bitterroot Trading Post, walking distance, bummer...) and found a nice stone... a Norton 2 sided (grey/orange, 6") for $22....  It may be a gift for somebody, or may go into my GFOD bag...  but $22, I couldn't pass it up.  the nice thing about the Norton manufactured stones, you ask?  You can use any lifting agent you desire...  water, oil or detergent based...



Just the name, Bitterroot Trading Post would be enough to get me in the door.


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## x SF med (Aug 28, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Just the name, Bitterroot Trading Post would be enough to get me in the door.


They handle the range access for the Local range...  isn't it horrible that the cost to join the 'Rifle Club' is $15/yr for access to the 600m rifle, shot gun and pistol range?  I need to get out there...  I was sick the day LL and the Ride to Valhalla guys went out and used up my targets and a chunk of my ammo for pistol practice.

I should work with the guys at Bitterroot to get a better knife selection though... but my choices may be a little pricey for the area.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Aug 28, 2015)

x SF med said:


> They handle the range access for the Local range...  isn't it horrible that the cost to join the 'Rifle Club' is $15/yr for access to the 600m rifle, shot gun and pistol range?  I need to get out there...  I was sick the day LL and the Ride to Valhalla guys went out and used up my targets and a chunk of my ammo for pistol practice.
> 
> I should work with the guys at Bitterroot to get a better knife selection though... but my choices may be a little pricey for the area.



I do think your knowing eye for the bladed steel will be something they are not used to. In particular with the outrageous membership fees they're askin'.


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## Loki (Oct 2, 2015)

Excellent thread and very informative!


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## Barbarian (Jun 10, 2016)

Apologies for the absence. Let's get back to it.

Stone Care

I prefer to use Norton stones because they are very high quality. I'm in no way affiliated with Norton/St. Gobain, btw. I use "Crystolon" (carborundum) coarse and medium stones, and India fine stones because they remove steel efficiently, but at a rate that is controllable and conducive to precision, however they require some maintenance.

Carborundum and India stones are friable. This means that as they're used, the crystals on the surface of the stones break away and expose the new, sharp ones underneath. This is a good thing, but it means that the surface of the stone will change shape with use, and THAT is not good, obviously. So, to remedy this, you have to grind the stone down flat.

Here is a vid of a gent flattening the stones he uses to sharpen woodworking tools.






I have and sometimes do use this method, and it works pretty well. Most folks already have the requisite items lying around.

Be sure to use coarse paper, like 100 or 120 grit when truing your stones this way, or you'll be old and grey by the time you're finished.

More to follow. Questions welcome.


----------



## Barbarian (Jul 5, 2016)

The fellow in the above video mentioned using a straight edge and a light to judge the flatness of your stone, but what he didn't mention was using a pencil. Before flattening your stone, draw a grid on the surface of your sharpening stone using a regular old pencil. As you grind away the higher areas of your stone's surface, the pencil lines will help you see which areas of your stone are making contact with the flattening abrasive. I'd like to note that I have used a paint marker for this instead of a pencil. It stays put better, but sometimes  requires you to take a bit more of your stone off. You may not mind. I went back to pencil, though.

Another tool for truing the surface of your stones is the flattening stone. It is (usually) a carborundum abrasive with a stronger binding agent than that used in sharpening stones. The surface is flat with deep grooves in it to allow excess slurry to escape. I use this more often than the sandpaper method. It takes roughly the same amount of time but saves you from going through a bunch of sandpaper.

Norton Flattening Stone for Waterstones, 3/4" x 3" x 9" in plastic case: Sharpening Stones: Amazon.com: Industrial & Scientific

The methodology is pretty well the same. Lube your stones up with your preferred lifting agent, and grind the stones together. (Norton suggests you grind the sharpening stone down against the flattening stone. I do the opposite because I have a "tri-stone" setup. It still works well. Try to use the entire surface of the flattening stone so it stays flat longer. Once the flattening stone loses its shape, after a few....... flattenings, you'll have to flatten IT.


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## x SF med (Jul 6, 2016)

As @Barbarian has noted, a flat stone is a good stone - except for multiple recurve blades - a puck or stick may be required to follow the original grind lines properly without dulling already sharp edges - but that's an issue for later.

I too am a fan of the Norton Crystallon stones - I use a grey/orange (Med/Fine, 600/800 grit - with food/pharmacopeia grade mineral oil for lifting) two faced stone for edging, then a Suehiro 1200 grit manufactured waterstone for initial polish, then finish on a bench strop impregnated with green (1800 or 2000 grit) polishing compound.  Keep some unfinished poplar, pine or other softwood around to de-burr the edge too.

Make or buy a good, stable, bullet proof stand for your initial cutting stones.  You use more pressure on them than in polishing, and it gets you enough stand off that you are able to keep a good angle on the stone.

Use the whole face of the stones for sharpening/polishing - better wear patterns and better accuracy for keeping to the angles.

Don't worry about the slurry, even if it's black, as it builds it ends up being the same grit as the friable material and makes your job easier. 

Clean and inspect your stones regularly - especially if you've sharpened a knife of suspicious quality (you'll know, it won't get a good edge, no matter how hard you work - mild steel or large grain 'cheap' steel are the main culprits.  Use different stones for super hard tool steels like milling blades, they will need much more maintenance.

Don't discount the use of diamond impregnated sharpeners - but buy very high quality ones - and only use them for recutting edges, tips and shaping - they take off a LOT of steel and leave a saw edge that can be a bear to sharpen out and polish, especially on large grain loose matrix steels.

Invest in a quality magnifier or two or three - a couple of magnifying glasses in various powers, and I like a jeweler's loupe in 10x and 15x.  Next purchase is a jeweler's/machinists lighted work magnifier.

Know your tools, do not lend them out unless you confident that the borrower knows what the deal is - or can pay to replace anything that gets damaged - a lot of people balk and scream "You want me to pay HOW much for a friggin rock?" ..at which point you are justified punching them in the face.  (example - $50-$100 is a good median range for quality carborundum stones, high quality Japanese water stones only go up from the high end). You can also remind that person what they paid for the adjustable locking torque wrench they just bought... and will use twice a year, maybe.

While on 'vacation' I was sharpening 3-5 knives a day for others...  various qualities, and got results from damn near perfect  to this crap won't hold an edge to my standard.  Remind people of this fact - 'presentation' knives are generally not working tools, they're pretty, but leave them on the walls, because they will not hold an edge ( unless the presenter and the recipient are knife geeks).  Let people know issues right after your initial inspection of the blade as discussed earlier in the thread, and temper their expectations then.

And back to the knifemaker....


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 20, 2016)

Thought this was kind of cool, thought I'd share.  Of what's listed, my two favorite (and most often carried) are the drop point and the Tanto)


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 22, 2016)

@Barbarian @x SF med (and anyone else who knows a thing or two about knives)

What is the story on Randall knives?  

I mentioned in another thread that I am beginning to declutter my life and replace multiple things with "one" of great quality.  A friend is selling his NIB Randall #28 Woodsman Knife and I am debating.  He is asking $500...(acknowledging the higher price since they sell new for $450 but there is a near 5 year wait)

Thoughts?

This is a Randall #28 Woodsman with a 4.5 inch blade and green Micarta scales.

*From Randall's description:*
"Drop point hunter blade. Full tang handle construction. 4 1/4″ handle length. Single brass hilt. Green micarta handle material (black micarta available). Border patrol shape. Top of blade notched for thumb placement. Wrist thong with brass ferrule. Sturdy overall construction. Excellent skinning and outdoors knife."

BLADE LENGTH: 4.5"
BLADE STOCK: 3/16” stainless steel
HANDLE SHAPE: Border Patrol
HANDLE MATERIAL: Micarta
HILT STYLE: Standard Single
WEIGHT: 8 oz.


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## x SF med (Jul 22, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @Barbarian @x SF med (and anyone else who knows a thing or two about knives)
> 
> What is the story on Randall knives?
> 
> ...



A Randall is an investment in a true high quality knife.  This one is a modified Scandinaian grind, so sharpening/honing will be easy with the right tools at home or in the field.  You will want one small modification on the knife... wrap the handle with leather or something like it...  polished micarta can get very very slick when wet or bloody.

Buy it.  If you don't like it, give it to me as a Christmas gift...  I'll take it, gladly and do a little happy dance, well, a big happy dance, for hours.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 22, 2016)

x SF med said:


> Buy it. If you don't like it, give it to me as a Christmas gift... I'll take it, gladly and do a little happy dance, well, a big happy dance, for hours.



I love LOVE when a post can actually make me laugh-out-loud!  Because he's a friend, I'm trying to talk him down from the $500 to something a bit more reasonable.


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## x SF med (Jul 22, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I love LOVE when a post can actually make me laugh-out-loud!  Because he's a friend, I'm trying to talk him down from the $500 to something a bit more reasonable.



I have the Spartan-Harsey Mod I, serial number very low of a small run (250) and signed by all 3 of the principals involved in the evolution of the knife....  it was not an inexpensive knife, it is now worth more _*used*_ than I paid for it... a LOT more...  Randalls are the same.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 22, 2016)

Mine.  $425  - Thanks for the info @x SF med - Time to sell a bunch of old stuff I just never use anymore!!!


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## x SF med (Jul 22, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Mine.  $425  - Thanks for the info @x SF med - Time to sell a bunch of old stuff I just never use anymore!!!



glad to be of service....   but.... don't rid yourself of anything unless you check the value and collectability of the knife, you could be shooting yourself in the foot financially.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 22, 2016)

x SF med said:


> I have the Spartan-Harsey Mod I, serial number very low of a small run (250) and signed by all 3 of the principals involved in the evolution of the knife....  it was not an inexpensive knife, it is now worth more _*used*_ than I paid for it... a LOT more...  Randalls are the same.



Than knife, could not have had a better gurdian.


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## Barbarian (Jul 26, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Than knife, could not have had a better gurdian.



Lol. Written in the night sky, I believe it was.


----------



## x SF med (Jul 26, 2016)

AND.....  back to our regularly scheduled programming....

@Ooh-Rah posted some pictures of blade styles.... 
Which ones are going to be the hardest to sharpen?  (there are 6 difficult ones and one may not be very obvious)
Why?  (think hard)
How do you overcome the obstacles presented? (think more harder)

let's get some answers before @Barbarian or I answer or amend responses....

Put on your thinking caps boys and girls...  this requires you sciencing a little....   bwahahahahaha!!!


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 27, 2016)

For reference, below is the pic that @x SF med is referencing above.  

My attempt at which blades would be most difficult to sharpen:

- I find my American Tanto can be a challenge, but seems to go better if I just treat it like two separate blades.

- The Sheepfoot and Wharncliffe also seem like they would be tough because the blades are so straight and have very precise points...I think it would be easy to mess those up.

- The Talon I would not even know where to start on a stone.  Just looking at it makes me think I'd cut myself with it somehow

- The Kurki and the Nessmuk also appear intimidating because similar to the Talon, the blade curves inward at the hilt.

- Really any of the blades with rounded edges are also potentially complicated as not only do you have to hold your angle, but as you get to the curve, you are forced to lift the butt of the blade so that the rounded edge stays at your desired angle.

To overcome the blades like the Talon or the Kurki,  I would learn to use a rod type sharpener so that I can keep my blade focused directly to the sharpener and not find myself in a situation where I have two parts of the knife on the store at the same time.

To overcome the fear of damaging the point of the sheepfoot or wharcliffe, I don't know.  Other than for this type of knife pay special attention to ensure that your angle remains consistent so that you do not accidently round the tip.

I will check back later for other responses, and/or correction from @x SF med or @Barbarian -


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## x SF med (Jul 27, 2016)

Well...  @Ooh-Rah, you're close.... but sheepsfoot and wharncliffe are easy to sharpen.
The talon (karambit) is a bitch to sharpen.
You are right about the tantos - treat the edges as 2 separate blades.
So there are 3 of the 6 I noted, you are kinda wrong about the 'curved' (convex or normal edge) profiles those are easy to sharpen once you've got your angles down and practice keeping the cutting edge at that angle.
Kukri and Dao are difficult also, any recurve is going to be a bitch to sharpen, because you can flatten an already sharpened area.
The hidden hard to sharpen knife is the dragon's tooth/needle point - because you can break off the tip while sharpening or have mismatched angles ...

Once we get into more of the mechanics you'll understand more - a lot of the issues will come into play one you understand the spine ridge issues on double edged knives.

Not a bad run, for a Marine.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 27, 2016)

x SF med said:


> Not a bad run, for a Marine.



Thank you. 

My Randall arrived today. I now know the definition of "sharp".  It is the first knife I have been nervous about handling-

It will be some time before I make an attempt to touch that blade up on my own.


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## Barbarian (Jul 28, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:
			
		

> - The Sheepfoot and Wharncliffe also seem like they would be tough because the blades are so straight and have very precise points...I think it would be easy to mess those up.



Those are the two easiest blade types to sharpen. I understand your anxiety about the tips though. Most folks overthink the tip when learning to sharpen. When you're sharpening a blade tip, you just focus on keeping the same edge angle as the rest of the blade. If you sharpen the edge correctly, then the tip will naturally become sharp as well. Of course, things are more complicated if you've broken the tip off, but that's a different matter all together.

Congrats on the Randall. If you decide you don't like it, you can send it to me. I'll dispose of it properly.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 28, 2016)

I'm to the point where I want to get some practice in, but realize that the tools I currently have will do more damage than good.  In addition, we can talk about technique all day, but unless I can see it demonstrated, it is difficult to practice.

A friend of mine is a chef and she sent me this video as something she practices for her kitchen knives.  Agree?  Disagree?  Recommend something different?

If nothing else, get to the end and watch the tomato demonstration - that is a very sharp knife!


----------



## Barbarian (Jul 29, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I'm to the point where I want to get some practice in, but realize that the tools I currently have will do more damage than good.  In addition, we can talk about technique all day, but unless I can see it demonstrated, it is difficult to practice.
> 
> A friend of mine is a chef and she sent me this video as something she practices for her kitchen knives.  Agree?  Disagree?  Recommend something different?
> 
> If nothing else, get to the end and watch the tomato demonstration - that is a very sharp knife!



@Ooh-Rah 
I use the western method demonstrated in the video, except that I move the blade in the direction of the cutting edge rather than the back and forth motion. I use my arms more and move my center mass less. In regards to secondary hand placement, I keep my fingertips up near the spine of the blade to avoid getting slurry on my hand and scratching the blade.


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## x SF med (Jul 29, 2016)

I use a modified Western technique - a hybrid from the teutelage of Bill Harsey, Wayne Goddard, Chris Reeve and other knife makers who do not send out dull knives, ever...

The issues I have with the video's techniques....
1. he's not using the whole stone, or turning the stone to make sure the slurry is evenly distributed.
2. he is focusing on kitchen knives - this the need for super fine grits to get super fine, long razor edges on the knives
3. A 20* combined angle is steep, too steep for most working edges, while great for kitchen work, it'll chip, dull and possibly fracture under heavy field use - for working knives I use a 28-30* polished edge to mitigate those issues.
4. For people new to sharpening - count your repetitions, exactly for each side of the edge - you can use the sectional technique (one portion of the edge at a time) but have your magnifier ready - you can leave ridges between sharpened sections.
5. He does not show any blade inspection prior to the start of actual steel removal - how does he know where the bad/worst sections of the edge are to plan the sharpening process for that blade?

He does hit on consistency of angle - that is the key item for a consistently sharp edge every time you sharpen - consistency of angle.

Those are the key items I noted, there are others - but remember, he is sharpening very well tended very high quality (Shun-Onion Pro Chef semi-custom hammer hardened Damascus differentially heat treated) kitchen knives, not working/field knives.  although these blades are very strong, they have a reduced toughness and hardness from field knives...  some terms we'll need to look at.  But CPMs30V, CPMs35Vn, D2, ViMax, and other tool/field knife steels sharpen differently and require less fine starting stones than in the video.  Most field edges are finished at 5k on a bench strop, not at 10k or higher - there is no need for that fine of an edge in the field in most cases.

@Barbarian - have I missed anything here?

Terms to research for the new sharpeners - as they relate to knife materials / steels
Toughness
Hardness
Strength

@Ooh-Rah - nice find for the video, not nit picking it, just clarifying the differences for different blade applications.


----------



## Barbarian (Jul 29, 2016)

He briefly touched on the subject of alternating sides to keep the edge even and symmetrical, towards the end of the video.  When sharpening field knives this becomes more important. As @x SF med noted, this gentleman is sharpening a chefs knife, and sharpening a field knife will often require the removal of more steel, so greater attention to edge uniformity is pretty helpful.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 29, 2016)

Gentlemen,

Now that I have a good idea of how to sharpen my Wusthof kitchen knives, can either of you recommend a video/technique to use on my numerous Benchmade and Zero Tolerance knives?

Do I understand correctly that you would not recommend that diamond stone sharpener that I presented in a pic a few pages ago?  One thing I noticed with this stone is that they recommend a dry sharpening vs. a wet stone.  Would you be willing to recommend a brand/grit level to start with?

Thank you for sharing your experiences and expertise - truth be told I have not really touched a sharpener since this thread has begun and reading through it again, I am glad.  Most of my blades are not cheap, I do not want to damage them.

@x SF med @Barbarian


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## x SF med (Jul 30, 2016)

@Ooh-Rah  -
I believe both Barbarian and I have recommended the Norton Crystolon stones, I think we both think starting with the 600/800 double sided version 3" wide by 8" (min) long x 1.25 inch deep version is a safe bet.  Lifting agent should be a quality honing oil or a food/pharmacopia grade mineral oil.  BUT, even at the 800 grit level you will need a polishing stone of at least 1000 grit (I use a 1200 grit Japanese water stone then an 800 grit medium on a bench strop) for a truly clean edge.

Buy a cheap knife for initial practice, you won't feel so bad when (not if, but when) you make mistakes.


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## x SF med (Jul 30, 2016)

You asked for it.....

Use this as your  search....  " field knife sharpening techniques video Murray Carter"  Murray is a beast at sharpening and making knives, swords, razors, and anything else that cuts....


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## Topkick (May 2, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @Barbarian @x SF med (and anyone else who knows a thing or two about knives)
> 
> What is the story on Randall knives?
> 
> ...



Beautiful Knife! Whatever happened with it?  I own a Randall model 15. They are truly a great knife with an incredible history. I recently read about Gus Grissom's Randall being found at the bottom of the ocean in the Liberty Bell 7 space capsule after like 40-50 years in excellent condition. There are plenty of cool stories about Randall Knives.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 6, 2017)

.


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## racing_kitty (Oct 6, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I just ran across this on youtube.
> 
> Any thoughts?



I had my doubts watching it. It looked to me like it would only make it worse. 

Once the video was over, the one that popped up next to play was this: 






Debunked.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 6, 2017)

.


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## Topkick (Oct 6, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> That's about what I figured. As our Troll points out, stone, oil and elbow grease.
> 
> I do use a sharpening steel from time to time.



My thoughts were that the slicing of that apple didn't show the knife to be very sharp! The video was cool though, I would not have even thought to try something like that....


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## x SF med (Oct 7, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I just ran across this on youtube.
> 
> Any thoughts?



No effin way would that Rube Goldberg come near any of my knives, ever.  I hope everyone noticed that the temper had already been taken off those blades with a blowtorch, because that friggin pos was going to do it anyway.  

you are more than welcome to ruin any of your own expensive sharp pointies however you like, just don't bring them to me for knife doctoring.



Red Flag 1 said:


> I do use a sharpening steel from time to time.



A steel is a fine piece of equipment, especially for kitchen and carving knives.  I own them, and use them regularly to hone edges and realign bevels between sharpening/honing sessions.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 8, 2017)

It is time to sharpen the custom blade I purchased from @Barbarian .

I've been practicing, but damn I do not want to fuck up this blade.


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## Barbarian (Oct 8, 2017)

Notice how the video is prefaced with the disclaimer "for entertainment only". That's the most informative part of the whole show.


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## x SF med (Oct 8, 2017)

Barbarian said:


> Notice how the video is prefaced with the disclaimer "for entertainment only". That's the most informative part of the whole show.



How do you think Ken Onion feels that this numbnutz used one of KO's Shun Chef's designs on the vid...


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## Barbarian (Oct 9, 2017)

Lol KO's cowboy hat probably did a flip when he saw it. Guess I'd be pissed off too.... guy made his edge look soft.


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## x SF med (Oct 10, 2017)

Barbarian said:


> Lol KO's cowboy hat probably did a flip when he saw it. Guess I'd be pissed off too.... guy made his edge look soft.



You need to make it to the OKCA show next time KO is showing up, it better be soon, Wayne Goddard may not be around much longer and he's a good one to meet too.


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## Barbarian (Oct 12, 2017)

If you hear that they'll be there this year, hit me up, if you think about it. I may get freed up this time around.


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## x SF med (Oct 13, 2017)

Barbarian said:


> If you hear that they'll be there this year, hit me up, if you think about it. I may get freed up this time around.



Goddard will definitely be there, it's his home turf, Harsey - same same, Spartan Boys always shows, KO may show up, Jeff Freeman always shows, Anne Reeve, Thad Buchanan, Bill Wilson, Crucible has a guy there...  lots of the stars show up...  you will not be disappointed, make sure you let somebody like Bill know you're showing up, you'll probably get an invite to a rather stellar exclusive BBQ.  Oh yeah, the Les the Marine may show too.


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## x SF med (Oct 13, 2017)

Ok, the side bars and asshattery and time away have been taken care of....  where the hell were we?


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## Barbarian (Oct 20, 2017)

x SF med said:
			
		

> Terms to research for the new sharpeners - as they relate to knife materials / steels
> Toughness
> Hardness
> Strength



Earlier in the thread, x SF med mentioned these three terms. One of them, "hardness" has a direct effect on the other two. They each have an effect on sharpening and general blade performance. Can anyone explain hardness and how it relates to toughness and/or strength. We're talkin blade steel, here.


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## x SF med (Oct 20, 2017)

C'mon guys and gals...  @Barbarian is going somewhere with this...and I don't want to have to answer this one...

A few hints...  brittle, flexible, matrix granularity, edge retention, batoning, shape, and Rockwell....


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## SaintKP (Oct 21, 2017)

I've been lurking the thread for quite sometime to get a better understanding of knives and how to better take care of them (nicest I've owned is a SOG Fielder used as EDC, to give an idea on how new I am to the knife game). But I'll take a shot in the dark and say that hardness in relation to the HRC scale directly affects the knifes ability to hold an edge and ability to withstand both macro and microchipping.

While generally its a good idea to have a higher "rated" blade, you reach a point where diminishing returns start to occur and the quality of the blade actually starts to go down (akin to how concrete is "hard" but brittle in the sense that it breaks under a decent amount of stress a knife will do the same). This also isn't a catch all because certain steels may perform better at a lower "hardness" point.

Sorry if I missed the mark, and while I have your guys attention would you guys have any reccomendations on a quality EDC that'll last a ling time?


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## Barbarian (Oct 23, 2017)

SaintKP said:


> I've been lurking the thread for quite sometime to get a better understanding of knives and how to better take care of them (nicest I've owned is a SOG Fielder used as EDC, to give an idea on how new I am to the knife game). But I'll take a shot in the dark and say that hardness in relation to the HRC scale directly affects the knifes ability to hold an edge and ability to withstand both macro and microchipping.
> 
> While generally its a good idea to have a higher "rated" blade, you reach a point where diminishing returns start to occur and the quality of the blade actually starts to go down (akin to how concrete is "hard" but brittle in the sense that it breaks under a decent amount of stress a knife will do the same). This also isn't a catch all because certain steels may perform better at a lower "hardness" point.
> 
> Sorry if I missed the mark, and while I have your guys attention would you guys have any reccomendations on a quality EDC that'll last a ling time?



That's right, harness relates to all of those things.

A blade's hardness is measured with the Rockwell test, which was invented by Stanley Rockwell in 1919. Tool steels are measured on the "C" scale, on which a spheroconical diamond is pressed into the item with a pre-set amount of force, and the depth of the impression is then measured. This is how a Rockwell hardness rating, or "HRC" is determined.

Toughness is a blade's ability resist impact shocks, as well as edge chipping. It is determined by the steel's chemical composition, its grain structure, and it's hardness.

Eutectic granulation occurs when the lattice-like grain of a tool steel is allowed to grow out of control, and there is not enough surrounding iron matrix to support it. It's caused mostly by too much time at high temps, and it robs a blade of its toughness, making it prone to fractures. This granulation can also cause inaccurate hardness readings. The addition of chemical elements, such as vanadium, to a steel slows the growth of the grain formation to a more manageable extent.

As @SaintKP mentioned, over-hardening a blade will reduce its toughness, also. The correct hardness for a blade is dependent on the design, intended purpose, and, of course, the steel formulation. Larger knives, for example, need to be a few points softer for increased toughness, whereas a small skinning blade benefits more from the additional edge retention of a higher hardness rating.

To be continued.......


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## x SF med (Oct 23, 2017)

Barbarian said:


> The correct hardness for a blade is dependent on the design, intended purpose, and, of course, the steel formulation. Larger knives, for example, need to be a few points softer for increased toughness, whereas a small skinning blade benefits more from the additional edge retention of a higher hardness rating.



Agreed with a caveat...  there are tempering methods that give outstanding edge hardness and retention while retaining the entire blade's toughness.

And, also there are forging/binding methods that will make a blade less responsive to abuse while maintaining edge integrity.

the tempering and forging techniques spoken of are not for the fainthearted knife smith nor the timid of wallet.


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## Topkick (Oct 31, 2017)

Anyone ever used the Benchmade _LifeSharp _service? I own some BM knives, but have never needed to use the service. Sounds like a good plan...

Lifesharp®:                               
Benchmade knives are all supported through a team of skilled technicians.  Their only function is to ensure your Benchmade is in optimal working condition for your entire life.  This service is called LifeSharp®.  A name that speaks for itself.  When you send your knife to the Benchmade LifeSharp team, the knife is completely disassembled and all worn parts are tuned or replaced.  The knife is then lubricated and reassembled, a sharpener applies a factory edge to the blade and the knife is shipped back to you.  All at no cost to you.


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## x SF med (Nov 1, 2017)

Topkick said:


> Anyone ever used the Benchmade _LifeSharp _service? I own some BM knives, but have never needed to use the service. Sounds like a good plan...
> 
> Lifesharp®:
> Benchmade knives are all supported through a team of skilled technicians.  Their only function is to ensure your Benchmade is in optimal working condition for your entire life.  This service is called LifeSharp®.  A name that speaks for itself.  When you send your knife to the Benchmade LifeSharp team, the knife is completely disassembled and all worn parts are tuned or replaced.  The knife is then lubricated and reassembled, a sharpener applies a factory edge to the blade and the knife is shipped back to you.  All at no cost to you.


The only time my Sebenza has been to the shop is the day Chris Reeve signed it at SHOT, he wasn't happy with the action (it was a year old) and tore it apart at the booth.  In his ever-so-gentle-and kind-softspoken-erudite South African gentlemanliness he spoke ill of the tech who had put the knife together, there were words about his parentage, and his parents parentage, some Afrikaans that escaped me, and a liberal use of the word fuck...  he kept the knife for a week and it came back in better than new condition...  about 6 months later, Anne Reeve got dinner and wine when we saw her at another show. 

Chris did show me how to work on the Sebenza and offered a tip - only use white lithium grease, sparingly, when lubricating the pivot/crossing/ wear/slide points of folders.  It does not react with most oils, water, or solvents, does not attract dust, and has an amazing dwell time on metal surfaces.

He also said that knowing how to sharpen and maintain your own knives will save your life someday...  not can, but will.

I've sharpened and maintained a lot of benchmades for friends...  not bad knives, but getting them free and having the ability to dx them makes them throwaways to military personnel...  until they hit the civvy streets...  then they cry about how expensive it is to replace them, due to lack of knowledge about maintenance on their equipment.

We'll get into some of these points later in this thread, I'm positive.

For now, lets get back on track with sharpening.


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## Ooh-Rah (May 21, 2018)

So I picked up my 2nd Randall.  Unlike the ‘collector’, I carry mine in the woods most weekends when I solo camp and use it for almost everything.  This one I might just hang on to, but I’ve never been a “safe queen” guy.  I’ve stil not sharpened the first one, havn’t really needed to....but it’s about that time.  Truth be told, while I use it for daily camping chores, I’m actually afraid to put a stone to the knife.


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## Topkick (May 21, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> never been a “safe queen” guy


I have one Randall. It's a model 15 from the 80s that has never been used and is a safe queen. My son has an obsessive goal of becoming a pilot, so if it works out he will get my Randall the day he gets his aviator wings.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 25, 2020)

Picked this up at a garage sale.  The blade is about 3” and it has “made in Finland” inscribed on the blade.


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## x SF med (Oct 25, 2020)

It's a pukka, probably designed for the tourist trade and mass produced, doesn't mean it's not a workhorse, but I'd slowly test it for reliability.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 25, 2020)

x SF med said:


> It's a pukka, probably designed for the tourist trade and mass produced, doesn't mean it's not a workhorse, but I'd slowly test it for reliability.


Thanks for that.  Talking to the woman who sold the knife, it is between 40 to 50 years old.


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## Kraut783 (Oct 25, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> So I picked up my 2nd Randall.  Unlike the ‘collector’, I carry mine in the woods most weekends when I solo camp and use it for almost everything.  This one I might just hang on to, but I’ve never been a “safe queen” guy.  I’ve stil not sharpened the first one, havn’t really needed to....but it’s about that time.  Truth be told, while I use it for daily camping chores, I’m actually afraid to put a stone to the knife.
> 
> View attachment 22602View attachment 22603View attachment 22604



That's a great size!


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 25, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> That's a great size!


I love this knife; might be the only guy in the world who actually ‘uses’ a Randall vs. storing or displaying it.


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## x SF med (Oct 28, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I love this knife; might be the only guy in the world who actually ‘uses’ a Randall vs. storing or displaying it.


there is no room in my knife box for safe queens...  all of mine (except one, a gift from Totentanz) have been used in the manner proscribed by their design.  the Yarborough is a great brisket and roast pig slicer, the Spartan-Harsey Model 1 cuts down trees like a mo-fo (yes, it is only one of 250 made, and it's used, it's a knife, and it's signed by the spartan boys and Bill Harsey)  

Good on ya @Ooh-Rah ...  use a Randall, that's what it was made for.


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