# An "underground" to hide kids from Family Court -



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 3, 2015)

I guess I am fortunate that I was not even aware this type of system existed, is this something anyone here has heard of or even had experience with?

The sheriff in the linked article goes so far to say he is sure the girls are being hidden - but not in danger of being harmed. 

Police: Network of family court critics is hiding Rucki sisters 

http://www.startribune.com/local/south/339609212.html


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## Jackflerp (Nov 3, 2015)

A family member of mine passed away and the county he lived in bought his house to turn in into one of those shelters. They are pretty much safehouses on the inside, but look like completely normal homes on the outside.


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## LibraryLady (Nov 3, 2015)

Jackflerp said:


> A family member of mine passed away and the county he lived in bought his house to turn in into one of those shelters. They are pretty much safehouses on the inside, but look like completely normal homes on the outside.




Umm... Nope.  Not even close.  I have no doubt of what you say, however, what you are referring to is a government sanctioned safehouse/shelter.  The OP is posting about something that is most definitely NOT government sanctioned.  

Slow down, read and don't be in a hurry to post.

LL


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## Jackflerp (Nov 3, 2015)

LibraryLady said:


> Umm... Nope.  Not even close.  I have no doubt of what you say, however, what you are referring to is a government sanctioned safehouse/shelter.  The OP is posting about something that is most definitely NOT government sanctioned.
> 
> Slow down, read and don't be in a hurry to post.
> 
> LL


They are similar. I get that government vs. independently owned things have their differences, but they have a lot of similarities too. Just offered my limited experience with shelters.


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## DA SWO (Nov 3, 2015)

Jackflerp said:


> They are similar. I get that government vs. independently owned things have their differences, but they have a lot of similarities too. Just offered my limited experience with shelters.


Government run shelters do not hide people from the Police.


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## policemedic (Nov 3, 2015)

Jackflerp said:


> They are similar. I get that government vs. independently owned things have their differences, but they have a lot of similarities too. Just offered my limited experience with shelters.



To paraphrase  the resident librarian, no. Just...no.


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## Dame (Nov 3, 2015)

The first I learned of things like this was back in the 1980s. Dr. Elizabeth Morgan stayed in jail for two years for contempt of court for refusing to produce her daughter for visitation with her ex-husband. She told the court he was abusing the girl and she wouldn't have it. Eventually a law was passed limiting prison time for civil contempt to 12 months and she was freed. In that case, I believe the daughter was taken out of the country and hidden in New Zealand.


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## Totentanz (Nov 3, 2015)

@Jackflerp: Just stop talking.  I've lost count of the number of useful threads that have devolved into members needing to correct your lack of understanding, compounded by your incessant need to keep speaking when you have nothing useful to contribute.


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## lre2020 (Nov 3, 2015)

Having a little experience with this topic myself, I think it is terrible when a parent is put into the situation of either placing their child in an abusive situation or going against court orders. Abusers come in all shapes and sizes and some can be very skilled at using the legal system to their advantage. The most dangerous abusers don't fit the typical "checklist" for an abuser. They appear to be the perfect parent in front of a judge and can oftentimes have the money to pay an attorney to say what ever they tell them to say.

Yes, there's a huge difference between independent and government run agencies. A government run agency is actually suppose to help you reach out to the authorities and seek legal ways of getting protection.


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## DA SWO (Nov 3, 2015)

lre2020 said:


> Having a little experience with this topic myself, I think it is terrible when a parent is put into the situation of either placing their child in an abusive situation or going against court orders. Abusers come in all shapes and sizes and some can be very skilled at using the legal system to their advantage. The most dangerous abusers don't fit the typical "checklist" for an abuser. They appear to be the perfect parent in front of a judge and can oftentimes have the money to pay an attorney to say what ever they tell them to say.
> 
> Yes, there's a huge difference between independent and government run agencies. A government run agency is actually suppose to help you reach out to the authorities and seek legal ways of getting protection.


Too often a father/mother is wrongfully accused of abuse, and the system knee jerks him/her into the cellar.  
Years later we find out the mother/father was being vindictive.
Seen it (and still seeing it) with a family friend and an in-law.


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## lre2020 (Nov 3, 2015)

So if someone commits a crime against you does that mean you should hesitate pressing charges because you are just being vindictive?

Anyone who has been abused will struggle with feelings of vindictiveness. That does not automatically mean their accusations are wrong. I do however believe, depending on how bad the abuse was, the abused person will be afraid to be vindictive because they know it will bring retaliation. And they realize if the courts do not believe them and the abuser goes free that retaliation will be swiftly coming. 

I know that I am somewhat outnumbered by the opposite gender here so please know that I am not male bashing and I hope it doesn't come across that way.


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## medicchick (Nov 3, 2015)

lre2020 said:


> So if someone commits a crime against you does that mean you should hesitate pressing charges because you are just being vindictive?
> 
> Anyone who has been abused will struggle with feelings of vindictiveness. That does not automatically mean their accusations are wrong. I do however believe, depending on how bad the abuse was, the abused person will be afraid to be vindictive because they know it will bring retaliation. And they realize if the courts do not believe them and the abuser goes free that retaliation will be swiftly coming.
> 
> I know that I am somewhat outnumbered by the opposite gender here so please know that I am not male bashing and I hope it doesn't come across that way.


No you should by all means press charges if someone hurts you.  That is what the law is for.  However  I think what DA SWO was talking about (and he'll correct me if I'm wrong) is the bitter other party in a divorce and custody battle being vindictive and claiming abuse when there isn't any.


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## nobodythank you (Nov 4, 2015)

This one hits close to home. As a recent loser in the farce that is the family court system, I can say that I don't blame some of these parents and what they are doing to keep their children safe. I would never outright condone breaking the law, but there are times where the law fails the people. Fortunately my son is not in any danger, but I can say with certainty that in this state, "the best interests of the child" is ignored if you do not have the prerequisite reproductive setup. The bias against fathers in the court system is unreal. What is sad is when I worked the road I honestly believed we were past the idea that only a mother can raise a child, and told countless men that fathers will get a fair hearing in court. Not so. Whatever the case with these underground systems, as long as the children are safe and prospering, I can't get my feathers too ruffled over this. In addition, I would hate to be the Deputy that had to work this missing persons case. Talk about a conflict of conscience.


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## RetPara (Nov 4, 2015)

Dame and ke4gde nailed it.  Morgan was a poster child for the network while I was in DC.  The main issue with the informal system; I don't believe there is a real vetting system for whether the children are really in danger or it's a vindictive spouse.

For y'all s edification....

Children of the Underground | Dart Center for Journalism & Trauma


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## LibraryLady (Nov 4, 2015)

Jackflerp said:


> They are similar. I get that government vs. independently owned things have their differences, but they have a lot of similarities too. Just offered *my limited experience* with shelters.



NO they are not similar. You have NO EXPERIENCE WITH SHELTERS.  There are ABSOLUTELY NO SIMILARITIES.  

 Just shut your piehole. 

LL


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## CQB (Nov 6, 2015)

A couple of cases here were similar. Guys were getting their guns impounded as the partner had claimed assault is a common one & an infamous example was when the woman took her three daughters to Italy, painting the husband as a workmate of Satan. 

As there is no evidence in the above to indicate the abuse, with custody awarded to the father...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 6, 2015)

It's always been heavy on my heart, how children are used in divorces and separation. People pumping their kids for this and that, or people using then as bargaining chips. It's sad, and one of those situations where its extremely hard to intervene.

Kids just don't deserve to deal with their irresponsible parents bullshit... My $.02


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## lre2020 (Nov 6, 2015)

RetPara said:


> Dame and ke4gde nailed it.  Morgan was a poster child for the network while I was in DC.  The main issue with the informal system; I don't believe there is a real vetting system for whether the children are really in danger or it's a vindictive spouse.
> 
> For y'all s edification....
> 
> Children of the Underground | Dart Center for Journalism & Trauma



Thanks for sharing these articles. I have read most of them and going to try to finish the rest.

My opinion, we could use a few more Faye's.....women get a bad wrap over this and they don't always deserve it. It would be nice to have a better solution to that problem.


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## lre2020 (Nov 6, 2015)

KPD issues warrant for father charged with murder of mother, Amber Alert toddler still missing

It is stories like this that make me wish more people would believe these women. This is a little girl that will grow up without her mother.


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## medicchick (Nov 6, 2015)

lre2020 said:


> KPD issues warrant for father charged with murder of mother, Amber Alert toddler still missing
> 
> It is stories like this that make me wish more people would believe these women. This is a little girl that will grow up without her mother.


Actually 3 kids will, not just the missing one.  He'd been in jail for abuse and the article doesn't mention any restraining order but pretty sure people believed her.  That doesn't stop someone from flipping and acting out.  The article you linked really has nothing to do with the thread subject though.  It wasn't a custody battle, she wasn't making false charges of abuse and they were following the court orders.  A fellow ex-wife even said she was surprised that it happened.


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## lre2020 (Nov 6, 2015)

medicchick said:


> Actually 3 kids will, not just the missing one.  He'd been in jail for abuse and the article doesn't mention any restraining order but pretty sure people believed her.  That doesn't stop someone from flipping and acting out.  The article you linked really has nothing to do with the thread subject though.  It wasn't a custody battle, she wasn't making false charges of abuse and they were following the court orders.  A fellow ex-wife even said she was surprised that it happened.




I am very passionate about DV issues so I apologize if I was getting off subject.

My point with the article was that the underground systems, the shelters, etc. They are there to save lives it is not some sort of hang out for bitter divorced women seeking revenge on the men who have done them wrong. Unfortunately, there will always be those out there ready to take advantage of anything and everything. But for the women and children who want to get out and want to save their lives that's what they are there for. By looking at the history of the ex husband in that article I don't know why she ever got involved with him to begin with or have a child with him! But again that is beside the point. Maybe at some time she did try to get help and nobody would pay any attention to her because she was just another "abuse victim". I don't know all the details of their relationship. Or maybe in the divorce hearings she did try to prove that he was psycho? But they all thought she was just being vindictive. For whatever reason he was allowed to have joint custody and was allowed the opportunity to take this woman's life. Maybe if she had reached out to a shelter or even an underground network...she would be alive today. Or maybe she thought it wasn't that serious and I will just be the brave ex wife and stand up to him like everybody wants me too. We see where that got her.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 6, 2015)

*Update on the girls in OP. 
*
Mom is arrested and $1M bail...she denies knowing where they are.

Bail set at $1 million for Lakeville woman accused of hiding daughters http://www.startribune.com/local/south/341991201.html


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 22, 2015)

Girls have been found - who the F knows who to believe - lot's of therapy needed all around - hope this works out for all involved.

Father relieved after daughters found safe after missing for two years


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