# IR Illuminators and PEQ/PAQ devices



## The91Bravo (Jan 12, 2008)

Ok folks,

What is your pleasure?

I used the PAQ4 back in the day, and it is the only device I have experience with.  I thought it was an awesome tool for identifying what you were gonna shoot at, and so assist all other members of the squad from killing the same target. (training that is)

What have you all used?  What do you prefer?

Are there any civilian products that you would recommend?

I have access to a set of PVS 7B, and would like to someday acquire a PAQ type device or a good illuminator.

Thanks for your input folks.

Steve


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## phridum (Jan 13, 2008)

If you're looking for top of the line gear, you could look for the TALON or ATTILA device which show's next-gen promise. Pg 283 of the Diamondback Tactical .pdf catalog has them (and PEQ2's on pg 282) but no price listed for either, and the nice ones are apparently for acronym's only. You'd likely have to finagle a cross deal if you have a buddy that's in such an agency.

I think most people around this community have little experience with items in that department that are un-issued. There isn't little use for such a thing, outside official use and militias. My personal experience with the PEQ family has left me desiring more. Due to their design and unbending nature of a laser beam, they only intersect the line of departure at one specific point. This is a gimmee and will be the case with any laser, however because they are offset to a corner of the bore rather than directly above or next to, calculating hits any distance is tricky, at for me, and especially so under pressure. We mostly used them for talking pilots or somesuch onto targets. Bad guys can get NVD's too so we illuminated and announced our position as little as possible.

There is this little deal that might be worth it, as long as you aren't putting your life on the line with this gear. That's when buying the outrageously priced is worth it...
http://www.kalinkaoptics.com/detail.aspx?ID=234

Here is an interesting option. I am unclear on whether the pointer is an infrared beam or if it's just visible to the NVD because it's a light...my porch light is visible to NVD's too...
http://cgi.benl.ebay.be/NEW-Yukon-N...0970QQcmdZViewItemQQisPrinterFriendlyZ1QQpvZ1


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## The91Bravo (Jan 13, 2008)

For civilian use, this is actually an affordable item. (both of them)

Thanks for the links and input.

Now I just have to acquire the NODs from my brother, without him knowing.... 

Thanks again,
Steve


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## phridum (Jan 13, 2008)

Since you were interested, and it IS relatively affordable (as far as NVD's are concerned), I dug a little deeper and found those ebay items at opticsplanet.com and/or nightvisionsales.com

http://www.opticsplanet.net/yukn-ac-nvmt-rifle-convkit.html
and
http://www.opticsplanet.net/yukon-4x50-nvmt.html

Seems like not too bad a set up. Since you just want the laser though, you don't need the whole kit.

This is just a infrared flashlight
http://www.opticsplanet.net/yukn-ac-ir-flashlight.html

Except for the aforementioned rifle kit, I can't find the laser pointer sold separately. If I was putting that on my M4...I'd have to pay attention to whether that silly laser is going to point right at the back of my fixed front sight...


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## 8'Duece (Jan 13, 2008)

I have a PVS/14 mounted on a LaRue PVS mount behind my Aimpoint. It's Gen 4 but I want a PEQ IR pointer to advance my tech. What say you ???


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## phridum (Jan 13, 2008)

Is this on an M4? That's a pretty sweet deal you got there. Not unlike what I'd like to eventually have. But I'm going to have a wedding to pay for soon (and then a wife to convince, so I'll just probably be content with what I have).

Like I stated above, the problem with the PEQ styles are the weird trajectory correlations. But, if your front sight is fixed and not flip-up, that might be the best way to go. If you're buying AN/PVS-14's, I'm assuming you got the scratch for the pricey military grade lasers. Take a look at that Diamondback Tactical. They got good gear, but you'll have to call for the price.

Specific advice #1. Get the Aimpoint 3x with QD. That'll enhance the all around usability for that optic 5 fold.

Specific advice #2. It's a good piece of kit, but the 14's are still only Gen III(+?)


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## 8'Duece (Jan 13, 2008)

phridum said:


> Is this on an M4? That's a pretty sweet deal you got there. Not unlike what I'd like to eventually have. But I'm going to have a wedding to pay for soon (and then a wife to convince, so I'll just probably be content with what I have).
> 
> Like I stated above, the problem with the PEQ styles are the weird trajectory correlations. But, if your front sight is fixed and not flip-up, that might be the best way to go. If you're buying AN/PVS-14's, I'm assuming you got the scratch for the pricey military grade lasers. Take a look at that Diamondback Tactical. They got good gear, but you'll have to call for the price.
> 
> ...



Yeah, the PVS/14 is GenIII. I do have the Aimpoint 3x multiplier running behind both the Aimpoint CompM3 and somtimes the EOtech 553. My 512 is not NV compatible. Both are running on LaRue mounts. One "Pivot" and one LT162 "LOW" on the back of the LaRue ECOS-C mount. The PVS/14 is also running on the LaRue PVS/14 mount. 

I don't think I can purchase an IR legally without an LE/MIL purchase so I'm looking for either the Insight visible or another cheaper IR that is available to civillians.


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## phridum (Jan 13, 2008)

Hey, it's worth looking into. That catalog just said to call for prices, which it does with pretty much everything over a grand. Some stuff is designated LE/MIL only but the PEQ2's weren't.


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## 8'Duece (Jan 14, 2008)

phridum said:


> Hey, it's worth looking into. That catalog just said to call for prices, which it does with pretty much everything over a grand. Some stuff is designated LE/MIL only but the PEQ2's weren't.



I used a buddy's PEQ/2A IR on the front of one of my LMT's with the ATN/PVS/14.  Since I've never been to combat with such equipment it was kinda strange to see both the red dot and the IR laser pointer designator floating out front down range. I couldn't decide which one to pick up and use for target engagment. Kinda like a video game.


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## phridum (Jan 14, 2008)

Ideally, we only use one beam at a time...


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## 8'Duece (Jan 14, 2008)

phridum said:


> Ideally, we only use one beam at a time...



What I was referring to was the IR beam and the Aimpoint red dot on NV setting both at the same time. I was kinda weird. Unless you turn off the Aimpoint. I guess. ;)


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## rangerpsych (Jan 14, 2008)

you leave the aimpoint on the nvg setting, and use the laser to engage. You confirm that your laser is aimed where it should be by co-witnessing through the aimpoint at range if you don't boresight and fine-tune on a range. Ideally you should KD confirm the zero after you co-witness them.

As for target aquisition with the weapon with laser mounted and using NVG's, you don't mount the 14 on your rifle because you just shitcanned your SA if you don't have helmet/head mounted NVG's. Keep the NVG's head mounted and use muscle memory for general target aquisition and weapon alignment, turn on laser and place beam where you want a bullet.

The only time you need to be looking through your scope is when your laser goes down, or if everything's out of wack and you are trying to troubleshoot the laser....

Zero your irons first.... then looking through them, align your aimpoint (if it cowitnesses) to your bullet strike point on your front sight post. Then flip down the irons, and confirm zero on the aimpoint.. Now that you have your Aimpoint zeroed, you can use that with NVG's and a known distance target to be able to field zero your laser if it's new.

Saves so much time and rounds compared to having to fight with a boresight all the damn time, but then again, your mileage may vary.


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## 8'Duece (Jan 15, 2008)

rangerpsych said:


> you leave the aimpoint on the nvg setting, and use the laser to engage. You confirm that your laser is aimed where it should be by co-witnessing through the aimpoint at range if you don't boresight and fine-tune on a range. Ideally you should KD confirm the zero after you co-witness them.
> 
> As for target aquisition with the weapon with laser mounted and using NVG's, you don't mount the 14 on your rifle because you just shitcanned your SA if you don't have helmet/head mounted NVG's. Keep the NVG's head mounted and use muscle memory for general target aquisition and weapon alignment, turn on laser and place beam where you want a bullet.
> 
> ...



Yeah, it's kinda different with the PVS mounted to the weapon. I've got the whole head set up thing but since it seems mounts are being produced for the PVS/14 someone has to be running it on the weapon. So much for trying to keep up with the real soldiers that use them. 

At the moment it's ok if you don't have to have total SA from my back porch/deck to peak through it with the Aimpoint set on NV #3 I actually see the cats out about 50 meters at night hunting mice. 

It's a funky piece of gear, especially for non combatant types like me. But I can see where keeping on the helmet makes a hell of lot more sense than finding an expensive mount and running on the rear of the weapon in back of the Aimpoint.


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## phridum (Jan 15, 2008)

I'm not familiar with what "SA" is in this context...unless you mean Single Action, and in that case, I'm completely lost...

I used to mount my 14's to my M4 while we were in our hide. My main problem was, seriously, does anyone know of a headmount that doesn't suck balls? My head must be malformed because I couldn't get a kevlar or headmount that didn't cause a headache within 10 minutes of wearing it.


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## 8'Duece (Jan 15, 2008)

phridum said:


> I'm not familiar with what "SA" is in this context...unless you mean Single Action, and in that case, I'm completely lost...
> 
> I used to mount my 14's to my M4 while we were in our hide. My main problem was, seriously, does anyone know of a headmount that doesn't suck balls? My head must be malformed because I couldn't get a kevlar or headmount that didn't cause a headache within 10 minutes of wearing it.



Naww, I was using "SA" in the context of "Situational Awarness"  I haven't tried running the PVS on my head with an laser designator. Aside from a headache I could see where the SA is more clear to your left and right than if the PVS where mounted to the weapon and you have sweep right and left to identify targets of threat. Not sure if there's any difference really. 

I'm just a gear queer guy with too much play money at the moment. But that won't last too much longer.


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## rangerpsych (Jan 15, 2008)

Situational Awareness... If you have nods AND a laser, weapon mounting your night vision is akin to dropping the soap in a prison shower, because you're fucking yourself.

The whole point of the laser is to be able to just shoulder the weapon and know where you're going to be putting a bullet, using muscle memory from those thousands of reps you do at the range. The laser is just the icing on the cake.

I never had issues with my MICH causing my head to hurt, and I have a knob on the back of my head that forces me to have to modify my chosen headgear.


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## 18C4V (Jan 15, 2008)

I like the PEQ-5 (ATPIAL) with the visible aim laser.


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## DA SWO (Jan 16, 2008)

Guys rolling through my ao right now have a PEQ-15(?) mounted on their rifles.  It's a Dual Beam (vis/IR)  aiming laser (or so that's what they are telling me).


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## The91Bravo (Jan 16, 2008)

SOWT said:


> Guys rolling through my ao right now have a PEQ-15(?) mounted on their rifles.  It's a Dual Beam (vis/IR)  aiming laser (or so that's what they are telling me).



That looks sweet.
http://www.ordnancemarine.com/tams/e1798b.html


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