# TReMoR 2  Reticle



## redmedic86 (Dec 21, 2011)

What does everybody think about the new TReMoR 2 Reticle and the future of it's use with miltary snipers?  I used this reticle for a four day course in the last 2 months and I had an awesome experience with it.


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## redmedic86 (Dec 21, 2011)

Sorry. Here's an example of the reticle.


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## x SF med (Dec 22, 2011)

It's essentially a modified Horus...  the Schoolhouse has a few, and the Army is training on mildot and horus now across the board for long range shooting (DM and above).


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## redmedic86 (Dec 23, 2011)

That's exactly what it is(a modified Horus).  But it takes all the thought out of your wind calls.  If you can just teach team guys to read winds then they don't even need to know that wind calculations.  In conjunction with the kestrel then you don't even need to teach guys on the team how to use a BDC to change their elevation and their good with hold overs out to about 860.  I love this reticle for your DM's on the team.


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## x SF med (Dec 23, 2011)

Everybody should be good enough with Iron sights that out to 300 you can hit a man-sized target 9/10... used to be a requirement for the Light Weapons Course at the Q,  but that is now a pipe dream since ACOGs came into play...  over the barrel under 75m...

Over 300, hell yeah, but know how to DOPE your target too.

Not everybody in the Army needs to be a DM/Sniper, a good shot, yes, but most people should not engage past 200m anyway, let your DM/sniper force the main body into a channel at 200m.  And forget about my views on burst/auto for most weapons...


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## pardus (Dec 23, 2011)

x SF med said:


> And forget about my views on burst/auto for most weapons...


 
Back in the day I used to have my weapon on auto, but then again I was a lead scout in a close country environment, and I was using a two stage trigger. It has it's uses.


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## x SF med (Dec 23, 2011)

> for* most* weapons...


 
note the bold...


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## pardus (Dec 23, 2011)

x SF med said:


> note the bold...


 
Expand if you would old boy.


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## x SF med (Dec 23, 2011)

Well aimed, well placed, controlled fire is the most effective way to neutralize a target.  Even automatic fire, except in cases of point man in close terrain, should be aimed, placed bursts or traversed while from a mounted (bi-pod/tri-pod) position through targets of opportunity or on an FPL/FPF taking into account the heat buildup in the barrel/receiver (a runaway gun sucks, and yes, the AR platform if hot enough will run away).  It has been shown in battlefield situations that indiscriminate use of automatic fire does not cause more damage to the enemy, but only expends valuable ammunition at a much higher rate.  Thus, my statement that most uses of full auto are not warranted...

...fun as hell, yeah, useful or accurate, notsomuch.


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## pardus (Dec 23, 2011)

x SF med said:


> Well aimed, well placed, controlled fire is the most effective way to neutralize a target. Even automatic fire, except in cases of point man in close terrain, should be aimed, placed bursts or traversed while from a mounted (bi-pod/tri-pod) position through targets of opportunity or on an FPL/FPF taking into account the heat buildup in the barrel/receiver (a runaway gun sucks, and yes, the AR platform if hot enough will run away). It has been shown in battlefield situations that indiscriminate use of automatic fire does not cause more damage to the enemy, but only expends valuable ammunition at a much higher rate. Thus, my statement that most uses of full auto are not warranted...
> 
> ...fun as hell, yeah, useful or accurate, notsomuch.


 
Agree 100%

We (4 man recon) were trained that only the first mag upon being ambushed was to be fired on auto and then only by the lead scout, after that semi only, with the possible exception of closing into the last 5-10m of the enemy or being overrun.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 24, 2011)

x SF med said:


> Well aimed, well placed, controlled fire is the most effective way to neutralize a target. Even automatic fire, except in cases of point man in close terrain, should be aimed, placed bursts or traversed while from a mounted (bi-pod/tri-pod) position through targets of opportunity or on an FPL/FPF taking into account the heat buildup in the barrel/receiver (a runaway gun sucks, and yes, the AR platform if hot enough will run away). It has been shown in battlefield situations that indiscriminate use of automatic fire does not cause more damage to the enemy, but only expends valuable ammunition at a much higher rate. Thus, my statement that most uses of full auto are not warranted...
> 
> ...fun as hell, yeah, useful or accurate, notsomuch.


 
Also sucks balls when your gas tube melts and your weapon wont cycle at all....thus turning an M16/M4 into a WW1 bolt action rifle.

Good post Troll!


As for the reticle, it's a bit busy for me...I prefer mil dots and or mil 1/2 mil hash marks. The ACOG TA31F is shit hot SDM optic IMO.


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## pardus (Dec 24, 2011)

JAB said:


> Also sucks balls when your gas tube melts and your weapon wont cycle at all....thus turning an M16/M4 into a WW1 bolt action rifle.


 
Stoner's biggest mistake was going for a gas tube and not a piston.


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## x SF med (Dec 24, 2011)

pardus said:


> Stoner's biggest mistake was going for a gas tube and not a piston.


 
Big reason to own an FN...  that and 7.62....


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 24, 2011)

pardus said:


> Stoner's biggest mistake was going for a gas tube and not a piston.


 
You know I disagree with that, but thats neither here nor there. The AR platform is one of the best used in history and they are a very effective combat rifle, just not a good machine gun.


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## pardus (Dec 24, 2011)

JAB said:


> You know I disagree with that, but thats neither here nor there. The AR platform is one of the best used in history and they are a very effective combat rifle, just not a good machine gun.


 
True. I think most major spec ops units in the world use it, that by itself speaks volumes. The fact that it has been in service for well over 40 years is testament enough that it is a great design.


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## pardus (Dec 24, 2011)

x SF med said:


> Big reason to own an FN... that and 7.62....


 
Yes indeed!


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## surgicalcric (Dec 24, 2011)

redmedic86 said:


> ...If you can just teach team guys to read winds then they don't even need to know that wind calculations. In conjunction with the kestrel then you don't even need to teach guys on the team how to use a BDC to change their elevation and their good with hold overs out to about 860...


 
If it were only that simple.

No matter the precision of the wind formula it can only be as precise as the shooter/spotter's ability to judge the wind to begin with. A kestrel is fine for atmospherics but unless you can place it 2/3rds the distance to the tgt it honestly does little good.

Fact is, how many _snipers*_ can accurately call wind when they havent done so for some time yet we want DMs to do it with their little training and time behind a long gun or spotting scope.


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## policemedic (Dec 26, 2011)

pardus said:


> Stoner's biggest mistake was going for a gas tube and not a piston.


 
Precisely why I love LWRC.


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## redmedic86 (Jan 2, 2012)

policemedic said:


> Precisely why I love LWRC.


Got to love the REPR.


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## Etype (Jan 2, 2012)

Piston guns (SCAR), especially when suppressed, get so hot in the hand guard that you have to wear gloves to shoot them. My hand is never over the bolt so it doesn't matter when I shoot gas direct guns- it's all a tradeoff. Piston guns also have "push-pull" recoil because of the greater reciprocating mass- slower to shoot.

As for the Tremor, the H-58 is awesome, and it's basically an H-58 ver 2.0- awesomer. It would be great if we started getting Nightforce optics with H-58 or Tremors on the SPRs.


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## pardus (Jan 2, 2012)

Etype said:


> Piston guns (SCAR), especially when suppressed, get so hot in the hand guard that you have to wear gloves to shoot them.


 
Don't you mean NON piston guns?

The hot gas stops at the distal end of the piston therefore keeping the forearm and bolt cool unlike direct impingement guns.


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## Etype (Jan 2, 2012)

No, I mean piston guns.  The heat stops in the piston, which is right under your support hand.  SCARs in particular get very hot near the front sight when you shoot them suppressed.


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## pardus (Jan 2, 2012)

Etype said:


> No, I mean piston guns. The heat stops in the piston, which is right under your support hand. SCARs in particular get very hot near the front sight when you shoot them suppressed.


 
Interesting, I've never noticed that in a piston gun. Ive also never used a SCAR, let alone suppressed.


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## policemedic (Jan 3, 2012)

Etype said:


> No, I mean piston guns. The heat stops in the piston, which is right under your support hand. SCARs in particular get very hot near the front sight when you shoot them suppressed.


 
That's very interesting to me as well.  In your experience, does that happen only when suppressed and is it unique to the SCAR?  I've got a lot of rounds through LWRCi rifles, and never noticed a heat buildup.  But then again, I don't shoot suppressed and that changes the dynamics of the gas discharge considerably.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 3, 2012)

A suppresser being used at high rates of fire is going to make any gun run hotter due to the gases being trapped in the bore/suppresser longer. Pistons disperse gas and heat at the gas port, which is normally under the hand guards for most piston shoulder fired rifles. This leads to the hand guards feeling hotter as Etype pointed out. It just as common with the M249 and the M240, the front ends start glowing hot and the heat is much more intense around the gas tube/gas port.


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## redmedic86 (Jan 3, 2012)

Etype said:


> Piston guns (SCAR), especially when suppressed, get so hot in the hand guard that you have to wear gloves to shoot them. My hand is never over the bolt so it doesn't matter when I shoot gas direct guns- it's all a tradeoff. Piston guns also have "push-pull" recoil because of the greater reciprocating mass- slower to shoot.
> 
> As for the Tremor, the H-58 is awesome, and it's basically an H-58 ver 2.0- awesomer. It would be great if we started getting Nightforce optics with H-58 or Tremors on the SPRs.


 
That's why the SCAR sucks when it comes to follow on shot's because the damn thing is so unpredictable.  But I love the way the REPR holds are group.  The Tremor on the SAS is a bad ass combo though.  I shot it for a few days and fell in love with it.  Were supposed to be getting Schmidt-Bender scopes with the Tremor 2 in it but we'll see.


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## redmedic86 (Jan 3, 2012)

excuse me SASS


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## surgicalcric (Jan 3, 2012)

We received (4) SCAR-Hs prior to this last trip, other than one day on the range they stayed in their cases.  Despise the weapon from the folding stock to the reciprocating charging handle to its inaccuracy.  

I am not a fan of the SASS/M110 as it comes either.  DMR rifle possibly, a Sniper rifle not in the least.


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## Etype (Jan 3, 2012)

I can't justify a 7.62 gun over a 5.56 in any capacity.  150m of extra supersonic range isn't enough to warrant a 3x weight in ammo and 25-50% in the weapon itself.

I do however, love the Mk13 with the Nightforce w/Horus reticle (H37 I think it is).  It's one of the more basic Horus reticles, but its still outstanding and a huge step up from the mildot.  That's why I'd love to use the tremor, it seems like a better mousetrap.  Some dudes are intimidated by the Horus reticle and the equations that go with it, but don't be- they are all simplified to mental math and easy muscle memory.  

Another word on Horus reticles- If you use them in a lower powered scope (Blackbird or especially Talon), they don't seem so hot since it is hard to see the definition of the reticle.  Once you get into the 15+ power range, they really start to shine and you reap a lot of benefit from them.  They take a lot of the targeting errors out of the equation and it comes down to your fundamentals.  It's also very beneficial to have a Horus reticle in your spotting scope, it's almost like cheating when you are shooting a school house style range or competition.

Another thing- on a 20"x40" target at 800m, a .1 mil ranging error or 1 MPH wind read error equals a miss- it's a mathematical fact.  With a reticle that has .2 mil graduations, a miss high or low is inexcusable.


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## Headshot (Jan 3, 2012)

In regard to the optics, I'm still of the school of thought that Bic lighters can be a lifesaver if you have one and it has fuel and the right conditions to start a fire; however, I still know how to start a fire without one. A Sniper should be able to get iron sights doped in and use them effectively at distances beyond the DM for any enemy. I like the simplicity and accuracy of the mil dot reticle with it's clear field of view compared to other scopes with too much garbage in my FOV. Windage and hold off are talents acquired by hours on the range and in the field by the shooter/spotter, not something that can IMO be truly effectively built into any scope that requires use in various terrains, especially for those not afforded proper range time.


In regard to the dislike for the SCAR, this might shed some light on a solution for some on here. The team is not mentioned for OPSEC of course.



> "My unit (USN SEAL element) was deployed to a very active combat area where we encountered frequent contacts with the enemy. When we were engaged, we returned fire using our assigned FN SCAR "heavy" rifles (Mk-17). During these engagements, we encountered a too common malfunction which prevented semi-auto firing and we would have to manually cycle the bolt in between successful shots. We tried cleaning with our petroleum CLP, but this did not eliminate the malfunctions. An operator in our unit recommended we try FrogLube. We started by applying some lube to the rails of the SCARs. Immediately after we began using the FrogLube, the malfunctions disappeared & the guns just ran without a problem. I strongly recommend switching to FrogLube as the only weapons care product for combat units."
> 
> _ "Huck"_
> _USN SEAL_


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## Etype (Jan 3, 2012)

I'd have to disagree, on the ranging specifically.  You can take a lot of the art out of it and make it science.  However, the lowest common denominator on any shot is still going to be fundamentals, which brings us back to the range.


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## Headshot (Jan 3, 2012)

I guess I need to clarify with I don't see taking someone who isn't a full time shooter and putting a scope on a rifle that will make a 1000m shot for them.  You can take a lot of the "guess work" out in some areas, but by and large it is ultimately the shooter using the gear that has to calculate range based on many variables that a scope can't figure out for you on distance shots.  Again, my opinion but I'm stubborn that way.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 4, 2012)

My opinion on the Horus reticle would probably be a little different if I had more time behind one, but my limited experience (and it was only used out to 600yds) is that the reticle was too busy for my liking. I absolutely agree with Head Shot on having proficiency in the basics before getting introduced to the equipment that simplify the tasks, much like being able to navigate by a compass, map or terrain prior to being given a GPS.

That said I am not against new kit that makes the job easier, but I am kind of picky on what that kit is. I like an open field of view in my reticle as well, mainly because that is what I have used for 10 years and what I am comfortable using. The Horus seemed like a neat concept until I got behind it and I quickly become uncomfortable with the grid blocking out the field of view. Probably just need more time to become comfortable with it, but I may need to get with the program and get spun up before I fall behind the curve at this point. As it seems most everyone is going to the Horus now.


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## redmedic86 (Jan 10, 2012)

Etype said:


> I'd have to disagree, on the ranging specifically. You can take a lot of the art out of it and make it science. However, the lowest common denominator on any shot is still going to be fundamentals, which brings us back to the range.


I have to disagree with you on the ranging.  If you look at the reticle it's got lines in the shape of a chevron (left, right, and top legs of reticle).  These chevron's allow accurate milling withing .1 mils.  I have seen multiple brand new team guys begin  milling and engaging accurately within 2 days.  These are guys that I never would have believed would have been able to pass SFSC but because it simplified it so much, it was cake.


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## Etype (Jan 10, 2012)

Why would it take 2 days?  You should be able to mil and range in 10 minutes with a Horus.  I'm not familiar with the Tremor, just the H58 and the H37 (which is in the new Mk13)- these both have .2 mil graduations, which make .1 mil measurements possible (it's either on the line or between them).


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## redmedic86 (Jan 11, 2012)

Etype said:


> Why would it take 2 days? You should be able to mil and range in 10 minutes with a Horus. I'm not familiar with the Tremor, just the H58 and the H37 (which is in the new Mk13)- these both have .2 mil graduations, which make .1 mil measurements possible (it's either on the line or between them).


The Tremor 2 is an upgrade to the Horus reticle.  In fact below 10 mils it is a horus reticle.  If you want to see it for yourself just go on www.horusvision.com and you can see it.


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## Etype (Jan 11, 2012)

The Tremor 2 is _a _Horus reticle, it's the newest one.


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## Loki (Jan 24, 2012)

I spoke to Todd at length yesterday. This came up in conversation and he highly recommend the Tremor 2. But after all he was heavily involved in designing it. I currently a run a H37 on my AI gun and have been exceptional happy with it.  I absolutely love Horus!  My new goal (dream gun) is to secure a OBR and mount this newest design Tremor on it. Of course after I get my 6.5 x 47 Lapua running correctly.


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## redmedic86 (Jan 26, 2012)

IMTT said:


> I spoke to Todd at length yesterday. This came up in conversation and he highly recommend the Tremor 2. But after all he was heavily involved in designing it. I currently a run a H37 on my AI gun and have been exceptional happy with it. I absolutely love Horus! My new goal (dream gun) is to secure a OBR and mount this newest design Tremor on it. Of course after I get my 6.5 x 47 Lapua running correctly.


The OBR with a Bushnell HDMR w/tremor reticle would be pretty awesome.  I'm looking into the same setup.


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## Loki (Jan 26, 2012)

redmedic86 said:


> The OBR with a Bushnell HDMR w/tremor reticle would be pretty awesome. I'm looking into the same setup.


 
Good call! I saw the new Bushnell line last year at the 2011 SHOTSHOW on the range day. SOCCOM has been testing them as well and the feed back has been exceptional from what I'm told. Their quality control and product line is fantastic. I was shocked at the clarity, durability and and overall quality.

Next week I'm taking delivery on a OBR for T&E in 308 with a 16 inch barrel. Can't wait, I spoke to Freddie today on shipping from LaRue.   I'll give you heads up after the testing.


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## Loki (Jan 26, 2012)

Headshot said:


> In regard to the optics, I'm still of the school of thought that Bic lighters can be a lifesaver if you have one and it has fuel and the right conditions to start a fire; however, I still know how to start a fire without one. A Sniper should be able to get iron sights doped in and use them effectively at distances beyond the DM for any enemy. I like the simplicity and accuracy of the mil dot reticle with it's clear field of view compared to other scopes with too much garbage in my FOV. Windage and hold off are talents acquired by hours on the range and in the field by the shooter/spotter, not something that can IMO be truly effectively built into any scope that requires use in various terrains, especially for those not afforded proper range time.
> 
> 
> In regard to the dislike for the SCAR, this might shed some light on a solution for some on here. The team is not mentioned for OPSEC of course.


 
X2
Dan O gave me a bunch of free samples of that FROG LUBE stuff last year, we're now out.  I have no idea what is in it but it works great. It also smells good and you can eat it! O and the company is owned by Larry who's a Frog.  Support a Vet!  

Respectfully


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## Headshot (Jan 26, 2012)

IMTT said:


> X2
> Dan O gave me a bunch of free samples of that FROG LUBE stuff last year, we're now out. I have no idea what is in it but it works great. It also smells good and you can eat it! O and the company is owned by Larry who's a Frog. Support a Vet!
> 
> Respectfully


PM inbound


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## Loki (Jan 26, 2012)

My long time rifle coach, instructor and friend Mr. Doyle Gracey (RIP) was an old Marine (Old Corps) shooter that was absolutely amazing at calling wind. He would call it and when he said "send it" that means now. Never missed any calls he made.  He never, ever used a Kestrel or any other gizmo.  In my opinion those devices are a reference and supplement to a solid skill foundation based on field experience. I use a Kestrel 3500 and also have Serpa. In addition to  1/2, 2/3 & target eye ball call.  Depending on distance of course.  O and don't forget to shoot allot, read the wind mirage and bring dice...


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## Etype (Jan 26, 2012)

The Kestrel is a must for programming the PDA, not much use for wind calls though.


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## Loki (Apr 2, 2012)

Almost forgot; I have the results of the testing with the OBR. All I can say is WOW! I tested it with a group of experienced shooters with our standard contract ammo. I also did some side testing later with some TAP ammo 155 grn. The test was head to head against the new prototype Colt Modular rifle. Guns fired from Supported prone. Of course we used FROGLUBE as we do on all our weapons now. The stuff works great! 

*Total group size average for the Colt* *Total group size average for the LaRue*
 3.62cm Approx. 1.42 of an inch  2.00cm Approx. .78 of an inch
Range; 100m
Ammo used; 308 168grn IBTHP Federal Premium Match Gold Medal Lot # LOI NO V21X573 
Both guns equipted with same scope and same stock Scope; Leupold 
Date; Feb 5 2012 
Location; Range # 11 Camp Roberts California
Time from; 1035hrs-1700hrs Temp at start of testng 80f Temp at end of testing 63f
Baro 29.47 start  Baro 29.21 end 
Wind during Colt test 0-.5 at 3 to 9 Oclock FULL VALUE
Wind during LaRue Test, Gusty 2.5-6.0MPH from 3 to 9 Oclock FULL VALUE 
Weapons cleaning intervals; 12 rounds
Elevation; 437 feet 
Clear direct sun light during Colt test,  Overcast dim light semi cloudy during LaRue Testing
Slope angle; 0
Humidty; 27%

The Colt rifle testing took place from 1040-1336hrs 
The LaRue rifle testing took place from 1340-1700hrs / guns cooled for 3 minutes between groups


Targets below were engaged at 100m prone as well supported.

 View attachment 5935 

Take care guys be safe.
Respectfully


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## gits (Apr 3, 2012)

OBRs will tighten up after 500-800 rounds maybe another .25 MOA. My gun was shooting around consistent .75 MOA after 500-600 rounds it finally broke in and it will shoot .5 MOA pretty consistently. Just wait till it gets broken in!


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## Loki (Apr 3, 2012)

We are very close to that now and that was a factory gun. LaRue customer service was excellent and the guns are amazing!

BTW; the Colt couldn't hold a candle to the LaRue. The Colt performed more as a main battle rifle not a precision rifle or a competitor to the LaRue. I will also be testing the "Lewis Machine" rifle soon.


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## Loki (Nov 3, 2012)

Just spent some time training with the "Tremor 2" (2 days) and the newest version "Horus Vision" software. All I can say is WOW! The reticle  is great and makes rapid engagement at varying distances much faster in different environmental conditions. I typically run a H37 on my L96 AI gun. I found this reticle faster on target, more precise in reduced time frames on threat and easier to use than the H37 for me. We were  engaging "iron maidens" & 10 inch steel plates out to 850m. I was very impressed and I think this reticle is state of the art in my opinion for engaging threats in areas of conflict.


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