# The Facts and the Danger Behind the BLM Movement



## Gunz (May 11, 2016)

Well-researched documented statistics regarding the violent deaths of Black Americans, who is more likely to be an actual victim of police deadly force episodes, and the danger the BLM Movement presents to law enforcement efforts and individual patrol officers. Not a long article but given the outrageous distortions of truth by the proponents of the BLM Movement and the media, a necessary one and one long past due.


_*"The need is urgent, therefore, to examine the Black Lives Matter movement’s central thesis—that police pose the greatest threat to young black men. I propose two counter hypotheses: first, that there is no government agency more dedicated to the idea that black lives matter than the police; and second, that we have been talking obsessively about alleged police racism over the last 20 years in order to avoid talking about a far larger problem—black-on-black crime."*_


The Danger of the “Black Lives Matter” Movement


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 12, 2016)

I have alot of opinions regarding BLM, I think their message is narrowly placed and deceptive to be honest. Are there times where LE has unjustly killed black people? Absolutely, nobody can deny that, nor should anyone attempt to assert that it doesn't happen. However, most cases of LE killing black people is a result of criminal activity and a failure to comply with LEO's. There is far more evidence of this than LEO's being quick on the trigger because the individual was black.

I do believe there is an issue of profiling, that would be a more appropriate consideration for the black community. However, with the years of criminal activities that has become common place within many black communities, that's a long and hard road, that starts with changing the culture of acceptance of criminal activity and lack of personal responsibility. The same can be said for all races who live in impoverished communities, that have large amounts of criminal activity. 

I can post hundreds of videos from YouTube to support my opinion. However we have all seen them and my time is better spent elsewhere.


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## Gunz (May 12, 2016)

The statistics in the article dispute most of the claims of the BLM proponents.


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## TLDR20 (May 12, 2016)

The way I understand the point of the BLM movement, it isn't just to draw attention to police violence, but the reasons why black lives seem to not matter. @Ocoka One your article highlights the issues BLM should(is) be highlighting. Black men kill each other. Why? Do we honestly think it is because they are just shitbags, or do we look at systemic failures that create systems in which criminality is the only choice?

I don't think anyone believes that every police is a racist. I'm pretty liberal, and I seriously do not for q second believe that even .01 percent of cops go out every day with a racist thought in their brains. I do believe that the policies that put them in neighborhoods are flawed. BLM might have overstepped their initial ideology. That is a bummer. Hopefully they will get their shit together and utilize a cogent message to get themselves heard, and their goals realized.

Looking at their goals, I don't see anything calling for police killings, killing whitey, or really anything threatening:

http://blacklivesmatter.com/guiding-principles/


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 12, 2016)

What were you asleep last year while several BLM protests chanted what do we want, dead cops, when do we want it, now? Or the several officers who were ambushed and assassinated while in their patrol car's or getting gas at a gas station. I am by no means saying that all people who got involved in the BLM were calling for dead cops. But it's a bit of a stretch to say that large groups wearing BLM t-shits and holding BLM signs were not calling for dead cops, because they were.

I'm all for a social movement that changes the culture of "thug life" criminal behavior, and the ruthless murdering within the impoverished black communities across our country. But it's gotta start with personal accountability and responsibility, and not with blaming everyone else for the problem.

I do absolutely disagree with the ideology that any person of any race is forced to commit crimes. Those are absolutely personal choices, wanting to take vs earn, wanting to take what others have earned vs going out and making it for yourself. The real issue is the community accepting that it's okay to commit crimes, to steal other peoples belonging's, the spreading of an ideological view that the great white Satan is holding them down. It's not true, it may have been 60 years ago, but that ship has sailed. There are more programs available to inner city impoverished black youth than has ever been in our history. Charter schools, athletic programs, trade schools, scholarships to colleges, special internship's and special contracts to employers who hire black people. The only thing holding black people back from being successful, are themselves and their communities. It ain't the system, it ain't the great white Satan, its not the police, and its not society as a whole.


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## R.Caerbannog (May 13, 2016)

Has anyone looked at the revenue streams that the BLM movement has tapped into? This is may be just me, but the way they operate reminds me of how Iraqi political parties (Sadr affiliated) and Hamas organize and disseminate info. Don't mean to sound like a tinfoil bandit, but the things that they are protesting against and their campaign against so called police deviance seem like a red herring.

I agree with @Diamondback 2/2 on how Americans have a choice in life and should take personal accountability for their own actions. I fail to see why the citizens of one of the most technologically and socially advanced countries in the world always seem to be so troubled. Either by internal social issues or the myriad of movements in place to correct them.


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## TLDR20 (May 13, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> What were you asleep last year while several BLM protests chanted what do we want, dead cops, when do we want it, now? Or the several officers who were ambushed and assassinated while in their patrol car's or getting gas at a gas station. I am by no means saying that all people who got involved in the BLM were calling for dead cops. But it's a bit of a stretch to say that large groups wearing BLM t-shits and holding BLM signs were not calling for dead cops, because they were.
> 
> I'm all for a social movement that changes the culture of "thug life" criminal behavior, and the ruthless murdering within the impoverished black communities across our country. But it's gotta start with personal accountability and responsibility, and not with blaming everyone else for the problem.
> 
> I do absolutely disagree with the ideology that any person of any race is forced to commit crimes. Those are absolutely personal choices, wanting to take vs earn, wanting to take what others have earned vs going out and making it for yourself. The real issue is the community accepting that it's okay to commit crimes, to steal other peoples belonging's, the spreading of an ideological view that the great white Satan is holding them down. It's not true, it may have been 60 years ago, but that ship has sailed. There are more programs available to inner city impoverished black youth than has ever been in our history. Charter schools, athletic programs, trade schools, scholarships to colleges, special internship's and special contracts to employers who hire black people. The only thing holding black people back from being successful, are themselves and their communities. It ain't the system, it ain't the great white Satan, its not the police, and its not society as a whole.



You can take what individuals do as part of a whole as indicative of the greater cause. Just don't complain when people label all Christians as being ignorant retro grades, or label all conservatives as racist. 

We have had a conversation about all the other stuff already.


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## Muppet (May 13, 2016)

Ugh. In short, IMHO. Fuck them and their "messages". They should be labeled a domestic terrorist organization". Bunch of fucking animals doing dumb shit on the guise of "their lives matter". How about the dozens of young black males getting fucking murdered everyday in my A.O., Philly. I see none, none of these assholes protesting over the death of some kid from the corner. Just my opinion though.

M.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 13, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> You can take what individuals do as part of a whole as indicative of the greater cause. Just don't complain when people label all Christians as being ignorant retro grades, or label all conservatives as racist.
> 
> We have had a conversation about all the other stuff already.



Dude, that made no sense at all. People have been attacking Christianity since the Romans crucified Jesus. And get this, conservatives are historically the ones who fight for individual rights and freedoms. The ones who fought against slavery, against segregation, against Jim Crow laws, etc. 

But if your intentions were to call me ignorant or racist, my response is find a better argument because you're wrong.


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## DocIllinois (May 13, 2016)

I think @TLDR20 's point was that the actions of a minority co-opting an organizational name and engaging in jackassery shouldn't represent that organization as a whole.  Could be wrong about that.

This doesn't specifically mean those who engage in violent actions, either, IMHO.   For instance, I wouldn't listen to anything these individuals had to say (if they were willing or capable of saying anything genuinely meaningful on the subject of lives not mattering) if someone paid me to:


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 13, 2016)

So if the organization has organized a march, and the members representing that march call for dead cops. Are we not to take that as the message of that organization? Or do we say, never mind this crowd representing that organization, because not everyone supports that message?

I Know not everyone associated with BLM is calling for dead cops. That doesn't change the fact that many of their supporters did, and several officers were killed directly after, by black men, who followed that message.

My overall point is that organization developed itself a bad name (a bad brand if you will) directly from those riots, those calls for dead cops, those officers being killed. They were narrowly focused on police officers killing black people unjustly, when the larger problems are within the impoverished black community. I hope BLM can turn their organizational image around and become a driving force to change the cultures within that community. But I'm not going ignore what they did in their past, or be easy to agree with their message until they have changed that image.


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## Gunz (May 15, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> The way I understand the point of the BLM movement, it isn't just to draw attention to police violence, but the reasons why black lives seem to not matter. @Ocoka One your article highlights the issues BLM should(is) be highlighting. Black men kill each other. Why? Do we honestly think it is because they are just shitbags, or do we look at systemic failures that create systems in which criminality is the only choice?
> 
> I don't think anyone believes that every police is a racist. I'm pretty liberal, and I seriously do not for q second believe that even .01 percent of cops go out every day with a racist thought in their brains. I do believe that the policies that put them in neighborhoods are flawed. BLM might have overstepped their initial ideology. That is a bummer. Hopefully they will get their shit together and utilize a cogent message to get themselves heard, and their goals realized.
> 
> ...




I agree pretty much with your points here. The BLM Movement at its core _should indeed_ focus on why most black homicides are committed by other blacks, not by the police. I heard an interview with Charles Barkley who blames peer pressure and not systemic failure, the pressure on youngsters to emulate the "cool" guys in the 'hood, the guys who are making the drug money and brandishing weapons and cash...and that you're made fun of if you work hard and study in school because your'e acting too much like "whitey." I believe that has a lot to do with it at least in the inner-city neighborhoods.


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## 48over4000 (Jul 20, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> I agree pretty much with your points here. The BLM Movement at its core _should indeed_ focus on why most black homicides are committed by other blacks, not by the police. I heard an interview with Charles Barkley who blames peer pressure and not systemic failure, the pressure on youngsters to emulate the "cool" guys in the 'hood, the guys who are making the drug money and brandishing weapons and cash...and that you're made fun of if you work hard and study in school because your'e acting too much like "whitey." I believe that has a lot to do with it at least in the inner-city neighborhoods.


I agree with this. Most of these issues begin at a young age and unfortunately it's hard to hold a 12 year accountable for falling into the rut surrounding them.

@Diamondback 2/2 is correct concerning the various programs available but can we expect the majority of these 10-15 year-olds to see the bigger picture? They are making what seems like a lot of money doing the "cool kid" thing and have thugs to idolize.

These are lifestyles which can be corrected at home. Where are the parents? Why are they not doing their all to utilize these programs in an attempt to get their child off the streets or out of the location completely? I know there are plenty who do but I doubt its even close to the majority (correct me if I'm wrong here). I understand that is an assumption.

I believe if I was in such a situation I would be placing my energy into getting them away from the situation and doing my part to correct the issue. Starting with myself and my household.

I don't see associating myself with a group who has members calling for and taking the lives of others, let alone LEO, as a good step in the process.

If you feel like there are inadequate programs, why not get involved in the community or school board rather than blocking streets and pointing fingers at someone for causing your issues? Whether it is true or not.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 20, 2016)

Where are the parents? They are  in Prison for non-violent drug sentences that carry mandatory minimum sentences.


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## Gunz (Jul 20, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Where are the parents? They are  in Prison for non-violent drug sentences that carry mandatory minimum sentences.




The kids are raised by their grandmothers. While it's true that some parents are serving mandatory sentences for drugs, many are in prison for the _violent_ crimes that go hand-in-hand with the drug trade; revenge, robbery, territory. And many of the parents are dead, victims of drug and gang violence perpetrated by members of their own race.

Speaking of drugs, in the Tampa/St Petersburg community there are many examples of disadvantaged teens from the 'hood being picked up a dozen or so times on drug charges before they ever have to do any hard time.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 20, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Where are the parents? They are  in Prison for non-violent drug sentences that carry mandatory minimum sentences.



That is way too broad of a statement to even make, I understand your point...but that's like me saying the parents are in prison for committing murder, aggravated robbery, sexual assault and other felony offenses that don't have anything to do with drugs.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 20, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> That is way too broad of a statement to even make, I understand your point...but that's like me saying the parents are in prison for committing murder, aggravated robbery, sexual assault and other felony offenses that don't have anything to do with drugs.



Yeah like Ocoka one did right after me? This whole thread is full of generalizations. You are right though.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 20, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> That is way too broad of a statement to even make, I understand your point...but that's like me saying the parents are in prison for committing murder, aggravated robbery, sexual assault and other felony offenses that don't have anything to do with drugs.



It is starting as early as middle schools now. Peer pressure, wanting to "fit it" can come down to taking a few Vicoden, or Xanax, etc.,  that a friend took from home. Then a few more kids bring other stuff from home, and eventually you hook up with someone with plenty of stuff to sell. Once you reach that point, the big slide down begins. This can happen with both parents working but in the home. There is no social strata that is immune.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 20, 2016)

heh,  I didn't see Ocoka post, think I was writing my response at the same time.

Your right to a point....there are plenty of persons of all races in prison for n0n-violent drug crimes.

He's right to a point....there are plenty of persons of all races in prison for violent crimes.

But in a country as diverse as ours.....we can't generalize.  Hell, Wyoming had 4 Police shootings in 2015...4...just amazing to me.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 20, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> heh,  I didn't see Ocoka post, think I was writing my response at the same time.
> 
> Your right to a point....there are plenty of persons of all races in prison for n0n-violent drug crimes.
> 
> ...



You have to admit that our prison population would be much more representative of the overall population if non-violen drug offenses were prosecuted differently. Mandatory sentencing disproportionately affects minorities particularly blacks. That is one of my biggest gripes with our system today.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 20, 2016)

Totally agree....and depends on the State, of course.  States are getting better at drug laws that makes sense...but the "War on Drug" days of the 80's was insane and way too strict.  Granted.... the gang violence during the 80's and early 90's because of that new money making drug, crack cocaine, was a crazy time and fueled the strict drug laws of the time.  The violence, death and destroyed families during that time was mind numbing.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 20, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> You have to admit that our prison population would be much more representative of the overall population if non-violen drug offenses were prosecuted differently. Mandatory sentencing disproportionately affects minorities particularly blacks. That is one of my biggest gripes with our system today.



I don't know about other states, but in Va there is a "Drug Court". It is aimed not so much at the dealer as it is the user. Persons who are arrested for drug posession, without intent to distribute, are handled a little more leniently. If the defendant will agree to a professionally conducted detox, and treatment program, charges will be set aside. The aim is to rehabilitate the user, and not punish them. The programs include detox, professional counciling, and group therapy, random drug screens, and for those with a DUI in the mix, an ignition interlock is installed in their vehicle. 

The programs have a modest success rate, around 30% success for the first time offender. It keeps the user out of the prison system, and in some cases can lead to employment that otherwise would be difficult to find. I'm not sure how many bites of the apple people get. Since relapse is one of the hallmarks of addiction, the courts will sometimes allow a couple of times to get further treatment.


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## Ranger Psych (Jul 21, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> You have to admit that our prison population would be much more representative of the overall population if non-violen drug offenses were prosecuted differently. Mandatory sentencing disproportionately affects minorities particularly blacks. That is one of my biggest gripes with our system today.



Maybe your concern might be better placed with why you think mandatory sentences disproportionately affect minorities.  Since, you know, to get a mandatory sentence its sorta mandatory to commit a crime.............. just saying


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## Etype (Jul 21, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> You have to admit that our prison population would be much more representative of the overall population if non-violen drug offenses were prosecuted differently. Mandatory sentencing disproportionately affects minorities particularly blacks. That is one of my biggest gripes with our system today.


If there was a mandatory prison sentence for driving the wrong way down the highway, guess what... I WOULDN'T DO IT!!! 

But of course, I wouldn't do it anyway, because it's illegal to begin with.

Crimes with mandatory prison sentences disproportionately target IDIOTS who know the penalties exist, yet still commit those crimes.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 21, 2016)

Maybe it is because I look at drugs as a public health issue not a criminal one. Addiction is a terrible thing. But that is just my privilege speaking, I don't know WTF I'm talking about.

If you look at the crimes that carry mandatory sentencing, and who they affect it quickly becomes obvious what the point of the laws are. As I have posted before just the difference between crack cocaine, and powder cocaine demonstrates this difference.

http://famm.org/Repository/Files/Chart 841--Fed Drug MMs 8.6.12.pdf

The War on Drugs(or personal freedom) is terrible for many reasons. One it disproportionately targets low income blacks, two it creates a war on the citizens of our country, three drug addiction is a health problem, best treated by health professionals.


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## Gunz (Jul 21, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Maybe it is because I look at drugs as a public health issue not a criminal one. Addiction is a terrible thing. But that is just my privilege speaking, I don't know WTF I'm talking about.



Yeah, but you're talking about addiction, and I agree with your first two sentences. Pushing is another matter, IMV.

What happens to a lot of kids is they start dealing at a young age and the money roles in. They get busted and they're back on the street dealing in less than a day. You're 16, 17 or 18 and you're making $500 or more a week?? Who needs school? You get busted and released 2 or 3 times a year, maybe get a month in JDC, some probation...the money makes it worth the risk. You start packing for protection so now you risk gun and possession with intent charges. You keep doing the crime, you keep getting in trouble and after 8 or 9 court appearances the judges start to lose patience with your bullshit. So you get a a year in JDC and a warning from the Bench that if you fuck up one more time you're going to big-boy prison. And inevitably, that's where you end up doing a mandatory sentence.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 21, 2016)

Mandatory sentences have nothing to do with prints, intent to distribute or anything else. They are mandatory sentences, that could go to anyone caught with drugs. There are many examples of judges lamenting mandatory sentencing as it removes subjectiveness from criminal courts.

In the meth corridor of Iowa, a federal judge comes face to face with the reality of congressionally mandated sentencing.

This is part of an entire series that details the "Drug War"


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## AWP (Jul 21, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> The War on Drugs(or personal freedom) is terrible for many reasons. One it disproportionately targets low income blacks, two it creates a war on the citizens of our country, three drug addiction is a health problem, best treated by health professionals.



The War on Drugs is one of several significant low points during the Reagan presidency. It is a garbage idea that pandered to fear and paranoia. With that said, I support mandatory sentencing because it "removes subjectiveness from criminal courts." Look at the Brock Turner case, mandatory sentencing wouldn't allow the judge to let him off with a relatively light sentence. If certain demographics are affected more then that's too bad. Perhaps the mandatory lengths should be re-evaluated and adjusted, but crime is crime.

None of this addresses "prison for profit" which is related but a stand alone issue. I only mention it because it has some overlap in this topic's Venn diagram and I recognize it as a substantial problem.


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## CDG (Jul 21, 2016)

I agree with TLDR that drugs should not be a criminal issue.  I think it should all be legalized and taxed, and the chips will fall where they may. That being said, they're not currently legal, so I have zero sympathy for people who end up in prison multiple times, or for longer than they believe they should be, because of a drug charge.


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## RackMaster (Jul 21, 2016)

If BLM doesn't want to be labelled extremist in any way and lumped in with the "kill a cop" chanters; then THEY need to address it.  They created the monster and are doing nothing about it.  But I think that's what they want.  They are anti-establishment anarchists.  If they won't clean up theiron supporters, then they reap what the filth sows.  The founders look up to Assata Shakur, a convicted cop killer; that says a lot of theironic mentality.  

Now as for drug crime, addictions and mandatory minimum sentences.  Minor marijuana possession should be legal and treated exactly like alcohol.  BUT with that we should put more effort into reducing use/abuse.  It has legitimate medical benefits but that doesn't mean everyone should have access or use it.  The big problem now is RX abuse anyway.  Fentanyl and W18 OD is the most common one up here now.
Any other drug frankly should be treated more harshly, mandatory minimums and mandatory detox/rehab while in detention.  They aren'the going to comply with treatment while out and even if they do, they haven't had enough time to change the behaviours associated with the addiction.  Create drug jails, working on the rehabilitation model BUT if any other crime is involved; fuck them and lock them up with the other big boys and girls.  

Making shit legal doesn't make it go away.  Voluntary addiction recovery rates are very low and fall in line with @Red Flag 1's 30% success rate in drug court.  If you remove the mandatory minimums, you're just creating a revolving door and destroying communities.  We have a growing number of safe injection sites in Canada and all it's doing is making the junkies live longer and destroying neighboring communities.  It's not fun having to watch for needles every where, for you or your kids.  And knowing the health system gave them those needles.  There's even a push to allow doctors to prescribe "clean" heroin.  And drug abuse isn't isolated to a specific demographic.  I live in a rural, predominantly white area and we have the same problems with drugs, cycles of OD's and associated crime; as any major centre does.  Guess who's bringing it here?


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## TLDR20 (Jul 21, 2016)

Utilizing punishment as a means of drug treatment has pretty much shown that it doesn't work. Places where rehab is the primary factor, have better results. This is well researched and well known.


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## AWP (Jul 21, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Utilizing punishment as a means of drug treatment has pretty much shown that it doesn't work. Places where rehab is the primary factor, have better results. This is well researched and well known.



I totally agree, but do it in jail minus the really small possession cases. Maybe we're talking past each other, I don't know, but we have to absolutely break the cycle yet we can't give violators a pass. There has to be consequences for their poor choices.


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## Gunz (Jul 21, 2016)

I genuinely feel sorry for addicts. I truly do. But I have no sympathy for anybody who sells dangerous drugs. And I'm not talking about pot. I mean crack, meth, heroin, etc. They are in the business of fucking lives up and even if they get hooked on their own product, xin loi, baby, tough shit...maybe it's what you deserve.


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## RackMaster (Jul 21, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Utilizing punishment as a means of drug treatment has pretty much shown that it doesn't work. Places where rehab is the primary factor, have better results. This is well researched and well known.



Maybe you glossed over what I wrote.  That is exactly what has to be done but with no freedom.  You release a crackhead for treatment and they'll walk out of the facility or show up high; they then are non compliant and can't/won't start treatment.  What you're advocating for is essentially what @Red Flag 1 mentioned and at a 30% "success" rate (which is the same for self induced treatment) is not success.  That other 70% will then do anything to get the next fix, it's a vicious cycle and being soft is not going to fix it.  ANY mental health problem, including addictions is NO EXCUSE for criminal behaviour.  They need continuous monitoring and care, no access whatsoever to ANY substance with addictive properties and that includes R/X drugs.  You can't do it in the same community, their triggers, sources are available; most get shipped out to a different community; typically not the best either.  Give them time and they find new sources; fail a substance test and are out on the street the same day. 

 This is not my opinion, this is from living with someone that works in the field and seeing it firsthand with family (who are white ).  You want sources and I'll talk to my wife tonight, get back to you.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 21, 2016)

Have you read about Portugals program? It is pretty goddamn successful. They certainly don't do what you think is necessary.

https://www.drugpolicy.org/sites/default/files/DPA_Fact_Sheet_Portugal_Decriminalization_Feb2015.pdf

Best quote "
“We came to the conclusion that the criminal system was not best suited to deal with this situation... The best option should be referring them to treatment... We do not force or coerce anyone. If they are willing to go by themselves, it's because they actually want to, so the success rate is really high... We can surely say that decriminalization does not increase drug usage, and that decriminalization does not mean legalizing... It's still illegal to use drugs in Portugal — it's just not considered a crime. It's possible to deal with drug users outside the criminal system.”


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 21, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Yeah, but you're talking about addiction, and I agree with your first two sentences. Pushing is another matter, IMV.
> 
> What happens to a lot of kids is they start dealing at a young age and the money roles in. They get busted and they're back on the street dealing in less than a day. You're 16, 17 or 18 and you're making $500 or more a week?? Who needs school? You get busted and released 2 or 3 times a year, maybe get a month in JDC, some probation...the money makes it worth the risk. You start packing for protection so now you risk gun and possession with intent charges. You keep doing the crime, you keep getting in trouble and after 8 or 9 court appearances the judges start to lose patience with your bullshit. So you get a a year in JDC and a warning from the Bench that if you fuck up one more time you're going to big-boy prison. And inevitably, that's where you end up doing a mandatory sentence.



There is a huge difference in dealing with drug peddlers, and users. The tough call is when the dealer is using his own product and is an addict.

For the drug dealers that wind up in jail for selling, it is really just the price of doing business. Prison stretches of five to ten years, becomes post graduate training really. They network with other dealers, and hone their trade even more. Some hook up with, and get "hired" by guys in the big leagues. It can put some on the path to a better non-drug life, but more often the road chosen is right back into dealing again.

The drug problem is so huge, and few see the direct link between crime and drugs. The best you can hope for is two things: 1.) No one in your family gets involved with drugs, and; 2.) You or someone in your family does not get robbed, and/or killed by someone looking for a way to get their drugs for that day.

There are just no clear cut solutions out their. Once hooked, beating the addiction is very hard. Do everything you can to keep your kids away from the drugs. Otherwise what @Ocoka One has described can be a very real event. Know what your kids are doing. Know their friends and what they are doing. Establish a closeness that allows your kids to talk with you about anything, without fear. Help them with their school problems, go to their ball games, find out what kind of peer group your kids run in. If you think you are OK with your kids, and they would never get involved with drugs, you are already in trouble. With my kids, and now my grand kids, I worry every day.


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## RackMaster (Jul 21, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Have you read about Portugals program? It is pretty goddamn successful. They certainly don't do what you think is necessary.
> 
> https://www.drugpolicy.org/sites/default/files/DPA_Fact_Sheet_Portugal_Decriminalization_Feb2015.pdf
> 
> ...



I've read that before and I applaud them.  I agree that we shouldn't be punitive with first time offender simple possession.  I agree the war on drugs was a failure but we made our bed.  It's bigger than just addictions now.  Both our countries would need a complete overhaul of our health system, not just mental health.  Eliminate/reeducate whole generations of health care providers that don't understand addictions are mental health to begin with.  We would need to build and fund thousands of facilities along with the needed personnel.  Then what do we do with the non compliant?  Those that drugs is just part of their criminality.  You're talking home invasions, assault, armed robbery, etc. either to buy the next fix or pay a debt to a dealer.  We also have huge organized crime/gangs to deal with.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 21, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> I've read that before and I applaud them.  I agree that we shouldn't be punitive with first time offender simple possession.  I agree the war on drugs was a failure but we made our bed.  It's bigger than just addictions now.  Both our countries would need a complete overhaul of our health system, not just mental health.  Eliminate/reeducate whole generations of health care providers that don't understand addictions are mental health to begin with.  We would need to build and fund thousands of facilities along with the needed personnel.  Then what do we do with the non compliant?  Those that drugs is just part of their criminality.  You're talking home invasions, assault, armed robbery, etc. either to buy the next fix or pay a debt to a dealer.  We also have huge organized crime/gangs to deal with.



What is hard to understand with drug addiction, is that it is often a symptom of something else that is going on. The drugs, and alcohol are mediums that provide good feelings that the user has not been able to find elsewhere. It is that hole in their life that the substance fills for them, that brings them back for more. For recreational use, unfortunately, it is a poor choice for enjoying life. To beat that drum one more time, know your kids, better than you know anything else in your life. The answer to stopping the addiction crisis starts at home. Failing that, other addicts that have found a way out, are the only ones who understand the disease well enough to help other addicts.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 21, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> I've read that before and I applaud them.  I agree that we shouldn't be punitive with first time offender simple possession.  I agree the war on drugs was a failure but we made our bed.  It's bigger than just addictions now.  Both our countries would need a complete overhaul of our health system, not just mental health.  Eliminate/reeducate whole generations of health care providers that don't understand addictions are mental health to begin with.  We would need to build and fund thousands of facilities along with the needed personnel.  Then what do we do with the non compliant?  Those that drugs is just part of their criminality.  You're talking home invasions, assault, armed robbery, etc. either to buy the next fix or pay a debt to a dealer.  We also have huge organized crime/gangs to deal with.



Ok let's do that. We went to the moon, we can do this.


----------



## Dienekes (Jul 21, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> None of this addresses "prison for profit" which is related but a stand alone issue.



Now that giant slice of fail deserves its own major thread.


----------



## moobob (Jul 21, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> You have to admit that our prison population would be much more representative of the overall population if non-violen drug offenses were prosecuted differently. Mandatory sentencing disproportionately affects minorities particularly blacks. That is one of my biggest gripes with our system today.



Drugs should be legalized, but even if they were, there is too much of a culture of acceptance of crime in inner cities. Too much shit like this: Homeowner Shoots, Kills Teen Burglary Suspect

So, massive reforms in drug laws will probably reduce prison populations and crime, to an extent, but many people will move onto other illegal hustles...

As for becoming more representative of the overall population, I really doubt that.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 21, 2016)

moobob said:


> Drugs should be legalized, but even if they were, there is too much of a culture of acceptance of crime in inner cities. Too much shit like this: Homeowner Shoots, Kills Teen Burglary Suspect
> 
> So, massive reforms in drug laws will probably reduce prison populations and crime, to an extent, but many people will move onto other illegal hustles...
> 
> As for becoming more representative of the overall population, I really doubt that.



A quarter of all those in prison are there for drug offenses. That is a quarter of certain communities. Imagine all that is lost. Imagine if that creativity was being pumped into helping their communities.

Bureau of Justice Statistics, Drugs and Crime Facts: Drug Use and Crime

Or instead of trying and hoping, we can just keep writing them off and imprisoning them. Basically saying fuck it, they are just going to do some other criminal thing...


----------



## RackMaster (Jul 21, 2016)

I think what's being missed in all this, is not the drugs, not the punishment but the underlying root causes.  Poverty is probably the #1 cause of all this.  Until we figure that out, nothing else will work.


----------



## Marine0311 (Jul 21, 2016)

CDG said:


> I agree with TLDR that drugs should not be a criminal issue.  I think it should all be legalized and taxed, and the chips will fall where they may. That being said, they're not currently legal, so I have zero sympathy for people who end up in prison multiple times, or for longer than they believe they should be, because of a drug charge.



I disagree. Keep them all illegal but change the punishments and attack the root causes.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 21, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> I think what's being missed in all this, is not the drugs, not the punishment but the underlying root causes.  Poverty is probably the #1 cause of all this.  Until we figure that out, nothing else will work.



Causing more people to be able to work by not adding criminal records to them will help keep people from poverty. Then their kids will be better off, which will fight poverty even more.


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## RackMaster (Jul 21, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Causing more people to be able to work by not adding criminal records to them will help keep people from poverty. Then their kids will be better off, which will fight poverty even more.



Not if there's no meaningful full-time jobs for them.  Which won't exist if the area is full of crime.  A catch 22.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 21, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> Not if there's no meaningful full-time jobs for them.  Which won't exist if the area is full of crime.  A catch 22.



Man. It is only a catch 22 if you blow it off as if it is. Recently cities like Durham, Baltimore, and Burroughs in other large cities are making a huge resurgence because the cities incentivize investment in formerly bad areas. Parts of Durham are now completely unrecognizable from 10 years ago.


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## Brill (Jul 22, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> A quarter of all those in prison are there for drug offenses. That is a quarter of certain communities. Imagine all that is lost. Imagine if that creativity was being pumped into helping their communities.
> 
> Bureau of Justice Statistics, Drugs and Crime Facts: Drug Use and Crime
> 
> Or instead of trying and hoping, we can just keep writing them off and imprisoning them. Basically saying fuck it, they are just going to do some other criminal thing...



Why don't people in those communities just stop using illegal drugs and follow the law? Imagine what those communities could accomplish on their own if they were just decided to follow the drug laws just like the vast majority of US.


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## Etype (Jul 22, 2016)

CDG said:


> I agree with TLDR that drugs should not be a criminal issue.  I think it should all be legalized and taxed, and the chips will fall where they may. That being said, they're not currently legal, so I have zero sympathy for people who end up in prison multiple times, or for longer than they believe they should be, because of a drug charge.


You say that until someone murders your wife for $20.

$20 that they need to buy their LEGAL cocaine that they are addicted to.



RackMaster said:


> I think what's being missed in all this, is not the drugs, not the punishment but the underlying root causes.  Poverty is probably the #1 cause of all this.  Until we figure that out, nothing else will work.


Poverty makes people do drugs??? That's ridiculous.

A culture of habitual drug use may cause poverty, but poverty does not cause drug use.


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## Brill (Jul 22, 2016)

Etype said:


> Poverty makes people do drugs??? That's ridiculous.
> 
> A culture of habitual drug use may cause poverty, but poverty does not cause drug use.



Conversely, money makes people not do drugs! Why are so many wealthy "stars" such train wrecks?


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## TLDR20 (Jul 22, 2016)

lindy said:


> Why don't people in those communities just stop using illegal drugs and follow the law? Imagine what those communities could accomplish on their own if they were just decided to follow the drug laws just like the vast majority of US.



Why didn't people stop drinking during prohibition?


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## RackMaster (Jul 22, 2016)

Etype said:


> Poverty makes people do drugs??? That's ridiculous.
> 
> A culture of habitual drug use may cause poverty, but poverty does not cause drug use.



No poverty itself doesn't, it does create the "perfect storm" for increased access/use.  But this is more than habitual drug use, it's a mental health problem with many outlying aggrevating causes.  And we're talking all drugs, alcohol included.  Lower economic status reduces access to adequate health care, especially mental health care.  Here in Canada the land of "free" medical care, we still pay out of pocket for mental health; either directly or through third party insurance.  Cheaper to dull the pain with cheap drugs.  Alcohol and stolen prescription drugs probably the most common.



TLDR20 said:


> Man. It is only a catch 22 if you blow it off as if it is. Recently cities like Durham, Baltimore, and Burroughs in other large cities are making a huge resurgence because the cities incentivize investment in formerly bad areas. Parts of Durham are now completely unrecognizable from 10 years ago.



What other factors created the environment for investment?  Increased policing, forcing community standards on landowners, etc?


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 22, 2016)

Etype said:


> Poverty makes people do drugs??? That's ridiculous.
> 
> A culture of habitual drug use may cause poverty, but poverty does not cause drug use.



Yeah, there is no socioeconomic level that is immune. It will have an end point of poverty, as you have pointed out.

If at midnight tonight, all drug use would be allowed without consequent, what would it change? It would reduce detention and incarceration for having drugs, but other things will continue. With free and legal drug use, there would be a big hit in terms of employability. Addicts will continue to chase the high, and more folks would show up to work under the influence. It would take years to create a physician, not government, run programs to get addicts into a position where they could drive a car, and hold down a job. There would still be people who would resort to crime to purchase the now legal drugs. In the end, I think you would see addicts in jail/prison for drug related crimes. The big difference would be the elimination of the middle man, the drug dealers. I think with legalized drug use, there will probably be more users. We are not in a position to deal with the legalization of drugs like Heroin, and Cocaine. Most likely, the government would step in, and tax the hell out of the now legal drugs. There would have to be facilities in place and staffed to deal medically with woes that legal drug use would generate. My guess is that it would take a good five or more years to be in a position to deal with legalization of drugs. 

My $.02.


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## CDG (Jul 22, 2016)

Etype said:


> You say that until someone murders your wife for $20.
> 
> $20 that they need to buy their LEGAL cocaine that they are addicted to.



This doesn't even make sense. Addicts commit crimes now to get drugs. People get shot over shoes and gaming consoles. How many new addicts do you really think the legalization of drugs will create? Now, of those, how many are also going to be willing to commit murder for it? This is a ridiculous analogy.


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## Brill (Jul 22, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Why didn't people stop drinking during prohibition?



I don't understand the parallel...well, maybe drink destroyed the Irish community but overall, I'm picking up what you're putting down.

I don't think following the law presents an undue burden on society or even  just a specific group of people.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 22, 2016)

CDG said:


> This doesn't even make sense. Addicts commit crimes now to get drugs. People get shot over shoes and gaming consoles. How many new addicts do you really think the legalization of drugs will create? Now, of those, how many are also going to be willing to commit murder for it? This is a ridiculous analogy.



I'm willing to bet that the number of addicts will remain close to what it is today. Legal or not, the drugs will cost something, mostly in taxes would be my bet. Drug related crimes will continue. Pharmaceutical companies will make a killing in profits. One thing that will change, is treating chronic pain patients. There is a difference between drug dependent, and drug addicted; there may where things get a little fuzzy for some folks.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 22, 2016)

Etype said:


> You say that until someone murders your wife for $20.
> 
> $20 that they need to buy their LEGAL cocaine that they are addicted to.



What? 



lindy said:


> I don't understand the parallel...well, maybe drink destroyed the Irish community but overall, I'm picking up what you're putting down.
> 
> I don't think following the law presents an undue burden on society or even  just a specific group of people.



My point is that legislating morality doesn't work. Prohibition didn't stop people from drinking, but it made non-criminals into criminals. Making prostitution drugs, etc illegal doesn't stop it from happening, but it does transfer the control of those vices to people who shouldn't have it.


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## Etype (Jul 22, 2016)

CDG said:


> This doesn't even make sense. Addicts commit crimes now to get drugs. People get shot over shoes and gaming consoles. How many new addicts do you really think the legalization of drugs will create? Now, of those, how many are also going to be willing to commit murder for it? This is a ridiculous analogy.


Legalizing drugs would grossly increase the number addicted to them, which would increase the related crime.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 22, 2016)

I will be curious how Colorado and Washington State deal with legalization of marijuana. Crime stats, issues, problems, what worked, what didn't work....etc


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## Etype (Jul 22, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> What?
> 
> 
> 
> My point is that legislating morality doesn't work. Prohibition didn't stop people from drinking, but it made non-criminals into criminals. Making prostitution drugs, etc illegal doesn't stop it from happening, but it does transfer the control of those vices to people who shouldn't have it.


Practically every civilized nation on earth realizes that drugs are bad, and should be prohibited by law.

Only the American liberal and other fringe groups think they are privy to some sort of higher knowledge on how to counter their negatives post legalization.


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## CDG (Jul 22, 2016)

Etype said:


> Legalizing drugs would grossly increase the number addicted to them, which would increase the related crime.



I highly doubt that. Neither one of us will know if we're right unless it actually happens, but arguments about wives being murdered for $20 and a mass creation of new addicts are over the top IMHO.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 22, 2016)

Etype said:


> Practically every civilized nation on earth realizes that drugs are bad, and should be prohibited by law.
> 
> Only the American liberal and other fringe groups think they are privy to some sort of higher knowledge on how to counter their negatives post legalization.



Come on dude. Are Colorado, Washington and Oregon descending into chaos? Legalizing drugs is one step of multiple. Legalizing marijuana is a decent first step.



Etype said:


> Legalizing drugs would grossly increase the number addicted to them, which would increase the related crime.



That has been shown to be patently false. I posted a link to the study of Portugal's legalization, and it showed the opposite of what you are saying. That is over almost 15 years of data, versus your totally non researched personal opinion.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 22, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> I will be curious how Colorado and Washington State deal with legalization of marijuana. Crime stats, issues, problems, what worked, what didn't work....etc


I'm not one to preach morality, but here is something I've noticed. Ever since they legalized marijuana in Colorado, things have been going downhill for some of the poorer cities. There has been a rise in homeless people who have migrating into the state, along with the pot loving trash (yuppies). The less affluent newcomers end up taxing already depleted city resources, while bringing their problems from back home. While the yuppies create their own little enclaves. Those with money and good sense leave the deteriorating neighborhoods, and cluster together with the yuppies in the new communities.

From what I've seen, culture is what ultimately decides whether or not an individual is going to be successful or not. I don't really see a difference between the skin tone of the yuppies and addicts. The difference I've noticed, is within their cultural identities. Either born with or adopted. Culture can either help you float to the top or drown you. Depending on whether or not, it fits in with societal expectations and values.

At the end of the day though, people are the ones who make their own decisions. Not culture. While people may be shaped by culture, they are not slaves to it. BLM is a perfect example of what a toxic culture is.

This wasn't directed at you Kraut783, just thought I'd expand on something that came to mind.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 22, 2016)

No worries...I welcome any insight and thoughts, as I said, very curious how those states work it out.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 22, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Come on dude. Are Colorado, Washington and Oregon descending into chaos? Legalizing drugs is one step of multiple. Legalizing marijuana is a decent first step.


Chaos? For the affluent parts, no. The poorer parts of the city have had an influx of what some might consider undesirables. My old neighborhood now has an influx of homeless people. It's gotten to the point that they'll break into foreclosed homes to create drug dens. Mainly what I've seen, is that marijuana has noticeably stratified the haves and have nots. While leaving the locals in the middle to clean up the mess.


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## SpitfireV (Jul 22, 2016)

How is the uptake in homeless related? 

Genuine question, not facetious.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 22, 2016)

SpitfireV said:


> How is the uptake in homeless related?
> 
> Genuine question, not facetious.


Legalization brought an influx of people into Colorado. Not all of them moneyed. Those that came to the state with money, invested in land or property. While the poor and addicts drifted into the ghettos and blighted parts of town. Essentially making things worse.

Edit: I guess it kind of goes hand in hand with culture.  In how it differently affects segments of society that share a common theme.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 23, 2016)

I think you are mistaking yuppie and hippie. Yuppies are not the pot smoking types.


R.Caerbannog said:


> Legalization brought an influx of people into Colorado. Not all of them moneyed. Those that came to the state with money, invested in land or property. While the poor and addicts drifted into the ghettos and blighted parts of town. Essentially making things worse.
> 
> Edit: I guess it kind of goes hand in hand with culture.  In how it differently affects segments of society that share a common theme.



There are a bunch of homeless pot addicts roaming the streets now that pot is legal? legal weed is not cheap at all. The taxes are very high, and it is a cash only business. Do you think marijuana is so addicting that if homeless you would cross the country to go to a place where it is legal? That shows an awful lot of initiative to smoke super expensive weed, when it is available everywhere else for very cheap. That also seems to fail to account for the fact that many homeless have mental health issues, and addictions to way more serious drugs than pot.


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## RackMaster (Jul 23, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> No worries...I welcome any insight and thoughts, as I said, very curious how those states work it out.



This time next year we'll have an idea what will happen on a National level.  Our government is due to release their plans for legalization in time for 420.



TLDR20 said:


> I think you are mistaking yuppie and hippie. Yuppies are not the pot smoking types.
> 
> 
> There are a bunch of homeless pot addicts roaming the streets now that pot is legal? legal weed is not cheap at all. The taxes are very high, and it is a cash only business. Do you think marijuana is so addicting that if homeless you would cross the country to go to a place where it is legal? That shows an awful lot of initiative to smoke super expensive weed, when it is available everywhere else for very cheap. That also seems to fail to account for the fact that many homeless have mental health issues, and addictions to way more serious drugs than pot.



That's the naivety or ignorance of the whole push for legalization.   Possession is legal, so they migrate, can't afford the legal product and have a hate on for "The Man" to begin with.  So they still buy from the illegal drug trade.  The black market doesn't go away, if anything it expands due to high costs of legal products.

Same BS idea behind gun laws.  The criminal element will always be there and find a way to thrive.  Booze and cigarettes are legal; yet the black market is thriving.


----------



## H. Harper (Jul 23, 2016)

That article says it was based off a speech given at a college campus. Pretty surprising that they didn't get shouted of the stage by "protestors" in the student body.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 23, 2016)

“Of the new [homeless] kids we’re seeing, the majority are saying they’re here because of the weed."

Legal pot blamed for some of influx of homeless in Denver this summer

Legal marijuana drawing homeless to Colorado

Marijuana Legalization In Colorado: How Recreational Weed Is Attracting People, But Spiking The State’s Homeless Rate [PART ONE]


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## Etype (Jul 23, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Come on dude. Are Colorado, Washington and Oregon descending into chaos? Legalizing drugs is one step of multiple. Legalizing marijuana is a decent first step.


As far as cocaine and heroin- no good will come of that.

I'd think that the legalization of marijuana would largely result in swapping one problem set for another.


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## AWP (Jul 23, 2016)

Everyone makes choices. You have to own your decisions.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 23, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I think you are mistaking yuppie and hippie. Yuppies are not the pot smoking types.
> 
> 
> There are a bunch of homeless pot addicts roaming the streets now that pot is legal? legal weed is not cheap at all. The taxes are very high, and it is a cash only business. Do you think marijuana is so addicting that if homeless you would cross the country to go to a place where it is legal? That shows an awful lot of initiative to smoke super expensive weed, when it is available everywhere else for very cheap. That also seems to fail to account for the fact that many homeless have mental health issues, and addictions to way more serious drugs than pot.


From what I've seen, the yuppies are the moneyed professionals that come to Colorado. They either buy land or create their own little communes near the cities. The hippies I've seen can somehow afford land up in the mountains. For the most part, these well heeled out of staters, are coming in from the East and West Coast. 

As for the homeless procuring pot, theft and larceny have become pretty common. The neighborhood I grew up in has gotten to the point where kids no longer go out to play. Meanwhile the police force there is stretched out pretty thin. They've got to contend with increased gang and other criminal activities. Heck, my mother was telling me that the DEA task force in the city, are doing show and tell presentations at the local schools. Something about showing off their helicopter and gear to raise awareness, and doing Q&A for the kids.

It's gotten to the point that before I left, I bought my mother a handgun. One of my buddies ran her through a CCW class so she could get her permit. The working class neighborhoods have become a dumping ground. 


RackMaster said:


> That's the naivety or ignorance of the whole push for legalization.   Possession is legal, so they migrate, can't afford the legal product and have a hate on for "The Man" to begin with.  So they still buy from the illegal drug trade.  The black market doesn't go away, if anything it expands due to high costs of legal products.
> 
> Same BS idea behind gun laws.  The criminal element will always be there and find a way to thrive.  Booze and cigarettes are legal; yet the black market is thriving.


Dude!!! I've noticed that for the well to do, legalization isn't a bad deal. The problem is that they don't have to live in working class neighborhoods. Their streets don't get flooded with the the less affluent newcomers. Newcomers that bring all their baggage and social problems with them. For the most part they close themselves off in their own little hamlets. While the cities have to deal with an increase in population that strain thinly stretched public resources.


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## Brill (Jul 24, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> My point is that legislating morality doesn't work. Prohibition didn't stop people from drinking, but it made non-criminals into criminals. Making prostitution drugs, etc illegal doesn't stop it from happening, but it does transfer the control of those vices to people who shouldn't have it.



I agree but to a point since right and wrong become societal norms and deviance from those norms are made illegal. Perhaps as a way to correct behavior but also to penalize and segregate those who decide to ignore society in order to go their own way.

If the majority of (insert state) want X and the harm can be isolated to that group, fine. Colorado's weed legalization is affecting surrounding states and I think they have legitimate concern.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 24, 2016)

But shouldn't states have rights?


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## RackMaster (Jul 24, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> But shouldn't states have rights?



Yes but frankly it should be unscheduled Federally and regulate major production.  If we're going to permit simple possession, then personal production should be permitted.

The same thing happened here with medical marijuana.  Sure it's legal but only if purchased through specific licensed producers and at a premium.  No insurance company will cover the cost and those that really need it don't have insurance anyway.  So they rely on grey market compassion clubs and black market where clubs aren't available.  Then throw in the Federal legalization plans, it will still be highly regulated and taxed.  No one that currently buys on the black market wants to give the government anymore money, I doubt spending habits will change. And that just continues funding organized crime.


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## moobob (Jul 24, 2016)

Etype said:


> Legalizing drugs would grossly increase the number addicted to them, which would increase the related crime.


Empirical evidence would suggest otherwise.

My support for drug decriminalization/liberalization boils down to... does it cost more money to fight drugs with cops, or with doctors and social workers? Portugal is the only country that has ever shifted to that strategy. Drug usage went down. 

The war on drugs is EXPENSIVE and accomplishes very little.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 24, 2016)

moobob said:


> Empirical evidence would suggest otherwise.
> 
> My support for drug decriminalization/liberalization boils down to... does it cost more money to fight drugs with cops, or with doctors and social workers? Portugal is the only country that has ever shifted to that strategy. Drug usage went down.
> 
> The war on drugs is EXPENSIVE and accomplishes very little.



Two things will change for sure:
Drug Dealers will be out of a job.
Drug Companies will have happy stockholders.

There will still be drug related crimes, and the number of addicts will settle in at about what we currently are seeing.


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## CDG (Jul 25, 2016)

moobob said:


> The war on drugs is EXPENSIVE and accomplishes very little.



Hard agree.  Expensive not only in money, but in time, resources, and blood.


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## Brill (Jul 25, 2016)

moobob said:


> The war on drugs is EXPENSIVE and accomplishes very little.



Tell that to the DEA and Customs!  WOD is basically a jobs program!!!

How did a BLM thread get into a drugs discussion?:-"


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 25, 2016)

Could it be an example of how culture alters perception. How for some communities the same problems affect them differently. Drug use and the WOD being indicators of variations in culture?


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## Brill (Aug 10, 2016)

Looks like some crazy stuff (basically stop & frisk) has been happening in Baltimore and crime is still off the charts. I believe the frisking was to find concealed guns, which are insanely rampant in the city despite illegal as hell (avg Joe cannot get CCW).  Now I think crime will get worse due to the Furguson Effect.

'Lock Up All The Black Hoodies': DOJ Report Details Abuses By Baltimore Police


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## TLDR20 (Aug 10, 2016)

Way more than just stop and frisk is fucked up in that report @lindy....


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## Brill (Aug 11, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Way more than just stop and frisk is fucked up in that report @lindy....



Agree. I do wonder/assume policing has gone to extreme measures because traditional methods in high crime areas is not working so supervisors adapted other techniques in order to try to reduce crime?

Do police need extra powers in areas where crime is too high and residents cannot help police themselves?

I do not think that cops are on a power trip and are inherently cruel. I do think they see the worst in humanity and get pretty tired of seeing repeat offenders doing same shit.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 11, 2016)

lindy said:


> Agree. I do wonder/assume policing has gone to extreme measures because traditional methods in high crime areas is not working so supervisors adapted other techniques in order to try to reduce crime?
> 
> Do police need extra powers in areas where crime is too high and residents cannot help police themselves?
> 
> I do not think that cops are on a power trip and are inherently cruel. I do think they see the worst in humanity and get pretty tired of seeing repeat offenders doing same shit.


Yeah. I don't know man. I live in Baltimore now. In the city, but a world away from the bad parts of town in East and West Baltimore. I have only driven through the bad parts on accident, and I can say with confidence, there is not a lot going on in those pets of town. No places to buy food, very little in terms of work. 

There are some things that may not be racially motivated but certainly seem that way. As a simple example, there is a free public transit system in the wealthy(white) parts of town, called the circulator. Totally free. While if you want to take public transport in the shitty parts, you are paying for it. Why is that? I don't need a free bus to get to work, I'll take it though. Those people in W.Baltimore need the bus to get to jobs, yet it costs them every month. Seems pretty stupid to me. 

I don't think all cops are bad, as I have said before I think they have an impossible job, but creating a template in which the only choice is "black male"? That is pretty absurd.


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## Brill (Aug 11, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah. I don't know man. I live in Baltimore now. In the city, but a world away from the bad parts of town in East and West Baltimore. I have only driven through the bad parts on accident, and I can say with confidence, there is not a lot going on in those pets of town. No places to buy food, very little in terms of work.
> 
> There are some things that may not be racially motivated but certainly seem that way. As a simple example, there is a free public transit system in the wealthy(white) parts of town, called the circulator. Totally free. While if you want to take public transport in the shitty parts, you are paying for it. Why is that? I don't need a free bus to get to work, I'll take it though. Those people in W.Baltimore need the bus to get to jobs, yet it costs them every month. Seems pretty stupid to me.
> 
> I don't think all cops are bad, as I have said before I think they have an impossible job, but creating a template in which the only choice is "black male"? That is pretty absurd.




WHAT????

Let's grab some food & drinks!


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## TLDR20 (Aug 11, 2016)

lindy said:


> WHAT????
> 
> Let's grab some food & drinks!



You in Baltimore?


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## Brill (Aug 11, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> You in Baltimore?



Across the bridge on the Eastern Shore but work just south of there. We're in the city quite often. 

You're just in time for Ravens' football!


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## TLDR20 (Aug 11, 2016)

lindy said:


> Across the bridge on the Eastern Shore but work just south of there. We're in the city quite often.
> 
> You're just in time for Ravens' football!



I live in Federal Hill. Less than a mile from the stadium. I have been flying from Martin State over the Eastern Shore quite a bit.


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## Kraut783 (Aug 11, 2016)

*Dominique Alexander, the leader of the activist group behind the Dallas Black Lives Matter arrested by DPD*

Caused a disruption at a city council meeting.....had 9 arrest warrants outstanding.   

Dallas Black Lives Matter Organizer Arrested for Outstanding Warrants


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## RackMaster (Aug 12, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah. I don't know man. I live in Baltimore now. In the city, but a world away from the bad parts of town in East and West Baltimore. I have only driven through the bad parts on accident, and I can say with confidence, there is not a lot going on in those pets of town. No places to buy food, very little in terms of work.
> 
> There are some things that may not be racially motivated but certainly seem that way. As a simple example, there is a free public transit system in the wealthy(white) parts of town, called the circulator. Totally free. While if you want to take public transport in the shitty parts, you are paying for it. Why is that? I don't need a free bus to get to work, I'll take it though. Those people in W.Baltimore need the bus to get to jobs, yet it costs them every month. Seems pretty stupid to me.
> 
> I don't think all cops are bad, as I have said before I think they have an impossible job, but creating a template in which the only choice is "black male"? That is pretty absurd.



I agree with the public transport but what's the history behind it?  How many drivers are willing to drive that area?  How many vehicles have been damaged in the past?

Same goes for any business, including food suppliers.  What sort of incentives do they have to open in those areas and employ locals when they are 1 robbery, riot, act of vandalism away from losing money.  

To the people living in the areas it may seem like a race issue since it's probably predominantly a single race in the area.   But when they don't stand up for themselves against the thugs ruining things, how can they expect anyone else to help?


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## TLDR20 (Aug 12, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> I agree with the public transport but what's the history behind it?  How many drivers are willing to drive that area?  How many vehicles have been damaged in the past?
> 
> Same goes for any business, including food suppliers.  What sort of incentives do they have to open in those areas and employ locals when they are 1 robbery, riot, act of vandalism away from losing money.
> 
> To the people living in the areas it may seem like a race issue since it's probably predominantly a single race in the area.   But when they don't stand up for themselves against the thugs ruining things, how can they expect anyone else to help?



The buses run dude, they are a city service. They are just free where the need is the least. 
Stand up against thugs? Against guys who have no qualms killing you? There is a scene in the Wire, which obviously is fiction, but it points out a very realistic issue.






That security guard gets murdered later in the episode. 

Sure it isn't race only, it also has to do with poverty.


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## RackMaster (Aug 12, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> The buses run dude, they are a city service. They are just free where the need is the least.
> Stand up against thugs? Against guys who have no qualms killing you? There is a scene in the Wire, which obviously is fiction, but it points out a very realistic issue.
> 
> 
> ...



I know they run but the city is obviously not getting tax dollars from those areas to pay for the services or to pay for damage, service disruptions.  Someone has to pay for it.  I agree it shouldn't be at cost to the rider if the rest of the city is free but are you willing to pay a major increase in taxes or pay so others can ride free?  You may but I doubt the majority will.

Oh I understand the threat of standing up to them.  But what other options are there?  No one would stand for a mass roundup and incarceration.  That's what it's going to take.  You won't rehabilitate all of them and then they'll just want to go back and do the same shit.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 12, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> To the people living in the areas it may seem like a race issue since it's probably predominantly a single race in the area. But when they don't stand up for themselves against the thugs ruining things, how can they expect anyone else to help?



The scene from The Wire @TLDR20 posted plays out in North Minneapolis everyday. The people who live there know they are powerless to stand up to the gangs there, to the point where there are multiple recent unsolved murder cases because the people in the neighborhood are terrified to talk to the police.  If I took a few minutes to Google, I could find cases where witnesses, or potential witnesses, have been murdered.  

To top it off, police presence has dropped, as have arrests.  What is frustrating for those officers is that the same people who camp outside the precinct calling them murderers, Uncle Toms, etcs, are now the same people complaining that the police are not doing enough to keep their neighborhoods safe.  

Minneapolis police officers face accusations of 'slowdown'

There was a time I was very judgmental about such things, but as I get older I realize how fortunate I was to win the gene pool/family lottery.  Born into an average white suburban family and never really wanted for anything.  Cannot say I would be where I was today if I was born a crack-baby with no idea who my dad was, and had to watch my mom give blowjobs to strange dudes just to keep from getting evicted.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 12, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> I know they run but the city is obviously not getting tax dollars from those areas to pay for the services or to pay for damage, service disruptions.  Someone has to pay for it.  I agree it shouldn't be at cost to the rider if the rest of the city is free but are you willing to pay a major increase in taxes or pay so others can ride free?  You may but I doubt the majority will.
> 
> Oh I understand the threat of standing up to them.  But what other options are there?  No one would stand for a mass roundup and incarceration.  That's what it's going to take.  You won't rehabilitate all of them and then they'll just want to go back and do the same shit.



To the first part. We live in one city. Taxes from all parts help all parts. The county is a different story. Our taxes fund all the buses, the free one should go to those that it would most benefit, not the other way around. There would be no increase in tax money, we already are paying for both a free bus, and subsidizing the pay bus.


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## Red Flag 1 (Aug 12, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> To the first part. We live in one city. Taxes from all parts help all parts. The county is a different story. Our taxes fund all the buses, the free one should go to those that it would most benefit, not the other way around. There would be no increase in tax money, we already are paying for both a free bus, and subsidizing the pay bus.



Concur. It seems to be upside down. Perhaps they are just trying to get more revenue, and are using the busses for income, rather that a service to the community.


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## Brill (Aug 12, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> The buses run dude, they are a city service. They are just free where the need is the least.



The Circulator was intended to bring shoppers to the Inner Harbor and used to be privately sponsored by businesses but now is funded by taxes on the parking garages.

Charm City Circulator running $11.6M deficit

The criminal elements are getting their free rides on the dirt bikes and 4-wheelers that are stolen from the suburbs.

The inner city buses sound pretty f'd up so why don't locals try to self-police their community?

New to MTA bus commuting, shocked by the poor service | Baltimore Brew


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## TLDR20 (Aug 12, 2016)

lindy said:


> The Circulator was intended to bring shoppers to the Inner Harbor and used to be privately sponsored by businesses but now is funded by taxes on the parking garages.
> 
> Charm City Circulator running $11.6M deficit
> 
> The criminal elements are getting their free rides on the dirt bikes and 4-wheelers that are stolen from the suburbs.



I know how it is funded. I just think that it should be used better.


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## Brill (Aug 19, 2016)

Opinion piece by Alan Dershowitz regarding BLM's latest stance accusing Isreal of genocide and apartheid. 

Alan Dershowitz: Black Lives Matter must rescind anti-Israel declaration - The Boston Globe


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## Gunz (Aug 19, 2016)

lindy said:


> Opinion piece by Alan Dershowitz regarding BLM's latest stance accusing Isreal of genocide and apartheid.
> 
> Alan Dershowitz: Black Lives Matter must rescind anti-Israel declaration - The Boston Globe



An example of the ignorance and bigotry at the core of BLM.


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## DA SWO (Aug 19, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I know how it is funded. I just think that it should be used better.


Then why start off by saying they are free?
That was a little disingenuous.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 19, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Then why start off by saying they are free?
> That was a little disingenuous.



It is free. It is free for me, and all the other residents of "high income areas". It only runs to places with high tax bases. The only bad part of town it runs to is the hospital, and that is to take workers from places like where I live to the hospital. 

My point is that services like these are stupid. Provide a free bus to a bunch of rich white people who will never take it (despite its free cost, ease of use, and great schedule), while making poor(mostly black) people pay for a bus they need.


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## R.Caerbannog (Aug 20, 2016)

lindy said:


> Opinion piece by Alan Dershowitz regarding BLM's latest stance accusing Isreal of genocide and apartheid.
> 
> Alan Dershowitz: Black Lives Matter must rescind anti-Israel declaration - The Boston Globe


Wow, the BLM groups seems to be taking pages from the Hamas playbook.


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## Red Flag 1 (Aug 20, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> It is free. It is free for me, and all the other residents of "high income areas". It only runs to places with high tax bases. The only bad part of town it runs to is the hospital, and that is to take workers from places like where I live to the hospital.
> 
> My point is that services like these are stupid. Provide a free bus to a bunch of rich white people who will never take it (despite its free cost, ease of use, and great schedule), while making poor(mostly black) people pay for a bus they need.



Gee, the bus ride seeems tempting if the schedule times work out. How good is parking @ BST?

At the U of Virginia in Charlottesville, parking has been a huge problem for decades. The in town tow truck company is always busy. Some of the paid parking lots are so remote that the UVA provided bus is a must, unless you are in training for marathons. The parking garages near the Medical Center is free for patients and visitors. Employee parking is around $100/month. During football home games, the fans are treated to free parking in the hospital garage. The paid for employee slots are cut deeply in favor of game parking.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 20, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Gee, the bus ride seeems tempting if the schedule times work out. How good is parking @ BST?
> 
> At the U of Virginia in Charlottesville, parking has been a huge problem for decades. The in town tow truck company is always busy. Some of the paid parking lots are so remote that the UVA provided bus is a must, unless you are in training for marathons. The parking garages near the Medical Center is free for patients and visitors. Employee parking is around $100/month. During football home games, the fans are treated to free parking in the hospital garage. The paid for employee slots are cut deeply in favor of game parking.



U Maryland runs another free bus for employees that stops 4 blocks from me. I'll be taking that.


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## Red Flag 1 (Aug 20, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> U Maryland runs another free bus for employees that stops 4 blocks from me. I'll be taking that.



I'm glad to hear you have that available. It's the smart move.


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## Kraut783 (Aug 30, 2016)

Thought this meme was appropriate in the spirit and all......


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## H. Harper (Aug 31, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> Thought this meme was appropriate in the spirit and all......


Don't let BLM catch you saying that... don't want rioters outside your door.


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## Peacemaker01 (Oct 7, 2016)

I believe Ford forks up even more bread to this shit than B&J's does, but haven't seen statement fron them.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 7, 2016)

...and this is the "danger" that I have been afraid of:

Citing beating of officer, Chicago's top cop says police are 'second-guessing themselves'

C_hicago’s top cop said Thursday one of his officers was seriously beaten at an accident scene because the national focus on police shootings has caused officers to second-guess themselves.

Superintendent Eddie Johnson said the patrol officer told him she did not use her gun to defend herself for fear of a backlash.  "She didn’t want her family or the department to go through the scrutiny the next day on national news," he said.

The injured officer, a 17-year Chicago police veteran, got into a struggle with a man who allegedly was high on PCP after she stopped at a crash scene in the Austin community on the West Side on Wednesday morning.

The suspect smashed the officer's face into the pavement repeatedly until she was unconscious, police said.

“As I was at the hospital last night, visiting with her, she looked at me and said she thought she was gonna die, and she knew that she should shoot this guy, but she chose not to because she didn’t want her family or the department to go through the scrutiny the next day on national news,” Johnson said while attending a public ceremony honoring heroic officers and firefighters.
_


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## Kraut783 (Oct 7, 2016)

...and there's the rub.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 10, 2017)

An article written by a former Army officer and FBI special agent who spent some time downrange with the Task Force:
*Retired FBI Executive to Black Lives Matter: Let’s Meet in the Middle of Some “Hard Truths”*

link



> My _reach out_ is through the written words on this page. I trust you’ll read them and ingest them and though we may differ on a number of points contained therein, my earnest hope is that you sense where I am coming from and help me to understand the same about you.


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## RackMaster (Apr 10, 2017)

@Marauder06 linky no work.


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## CDG (Apr 10, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> @Marauder06 linky no work.



It's alright.  As a Non-Commissioned Officer in the United States Air Force TACP community, I'm used to fixing the mistakes of Army Officers.

Retired FBI Executive to Black Lives Matter: Let's Meet in the Middle of Some "Hard Truths"


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## Marauder06 (Apr 10, 2017)

Weird.  I went back in and looked at the first link again and I don't get why it doesn't work.  Added a second link.  Thanks for the heads up.


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## RackMaster (Apr 11, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> Weird.  I went back in and looked at the first link again and I don't get why it doesn't work.  Added a second link.  Thanks for the heads up.



Seems like you have been without NCO supervision for to long.  :-"

Oh and that's a great article.


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## TLDR20 (Apr 11, 2017)

Is BLM still doing stuff? Seems like it fizzled out for the most part... 

There seem to have been less police shootings recently, maybe with the rise of body cameras and increased attention to the issues there has been a decrease. Maybe that was the point of BLM. Maybe.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 11, 2017)

The point of BLM is political power for BLM.  That's the case with all of these types of organizations, across the political spectrum.  Now that the election is over their value has diminished greatly, but they're still out there, struggling for relevance.  Like with their "outrage" over the Pepsi commercial.


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## TLDR20 (Apr 11, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> The point of BLM is political power for BLM.  That's the case with all of these types of organizations, across the political spectrum.  Now that the election is over their value has diminished greatly, but they're still out there, struggling for relevance.  Like with their "outrage" over the Pepsi commercial.



I hadn't heard much about that. At least from BLM folks. I think they were pretty much irrelevant during the election.

IF their point was bringing attention to police shootings, particularly of unarmed blacks, I think they accomplished their point. There have been less high profile ones recently. While their national prominence was also associated with the increase in body camera use may not be causative, it probably had an effect.

If their point is political relevance I think that time has passed them by.


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## Kraut783 (Apr 11, 2017)

It's the ebb and flow of the police world....as far as shootings go.  The media is focused on other things right now.


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## TLDR20 (Apr 11, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> It's the ebb and flow of the police world....as far as shootings go.  The media is focused on other things right now.



You don't think body cameras play a role?


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## Ranger Psych (Apr 11, 2017)

No, because contrary to popular belief of the left, law enforcement is not this huge corrupt black beating brotherhood as depicted by everyone... yes, they get a disparate amount of attention....because as a community they conduct a disparate amount of crime.

This is not new news to most people.


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## TLDR20 (Apr 11, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> No, because contrary to popular belief of the left, law enforcement is not this huge corrupt black beating brotherhood as depicted by everyone... yes, they get a disparate amount of attention....because as a community they conduct a disparate amount of crime.
> 
> This is not new news to most people.



That wasn't at all my point. 

From what I have heard and read most LEO's support the use of body cameras.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 11, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> You don't think body cameras play a role?


I think body cameras play a role... in destroying the false narratives promoted by organizations like BLM.  That may be one reason why some social justice organizations are now seeking to ban them.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 11, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> I hadn't heard much about that. At least from BLM folks.


https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/business/kendall-jenner-pepsi-ad.html
DeRay Mckesson -- Pepsi, Kendall Jenner Exploited Black Lives Matter (VIDEO)
Kendall Jenner's Pepsi Ad a 'Personal Insult' to Black Lives Matter Leader Johnetta Elzie (VIDEO)


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## TLDR20 (Apr 11, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> I think body cameras play a role... in destroying the false narratives promoted by organizations like BLM.  That may be one reason why some social justice organizations are now seeking to ban them.



That is just asinine(their position not your post).

Body cameras should help clarify tense situations, particularly in the aftermath.


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## TLDR20 (Apr 11, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> https://www.nytimes.com/2017/04/05/business/kendall-jenner-pepsi-ad.html
> DeRay Mckesson -- Pepsi, Kendall Jenner Exploited Black Lives Matter (VIDEO)
> Kendall Jenner's Pepsi Ad a 'Personal Insult' to Black Lives Matter Leader Johnetta Elzie (VIDEO)



That ad was in poor taste. But just as much for the many protests worldwide as for the BLM movement. But just like I say "it isn't always about you" this goes for everyone.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 11, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> That is just asinine(their position not your post).
> 
> Body cameras should help clarify tense situations, particularly in the aftermath.



I think the cameras are a great idea.  I think they help all sides stay honest.  I was thinking about the body cam footage of the asshole cop who wanted to go all "End of Watch" during a domestic call.  I was also thinking about other situations where the civilians made stuff up to try to get a payday or get out of a crime, and still others where the cameras just helped understand what really happened.


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## Kraut783 (Apr 11, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> You don't think body cameras play a role?



I don't....we have had dashcams and audio recordings since 2001, actually before that, but mandated for all marked units in 2001 in Texas. Body cameras might help cut down on complaints in good shootings, but the media coverage and social media doesn't care if it is a good shooting or bad shooting...they still complain/demonstrate/protest......the problem with cameras and body cams is the public and media expect instant release of video to the public.....people don't care that it's evidence and a investigation is pending ... they want it now, and if they don't get it now...they say the Police are hiding something.

Cameras are good tools and have saved many an officer for frivolous complaints and are great for evidence......but in shootings, it doesn't matter in the public eye....it always bad for us and we lose in social media.....which is all that seems to matter now days.


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## Kraut783 (Apr 11, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> No, because contrary to popular belief of the left, law enforcement is not this huge corrupt black beating brotherhood as depicted by everyone... yes, they get a disparate amount of attention....because as a community they conduct a disparate amount of crime.
> 
> This is not new news to most people.



Agree.......even with the bad shootings that have been highlighted in the past.....we forget that officers respond to *tens of thousands of calls a day across the nation*, arrest thousands a day, confront violent situations thousands of times a day......of course there are going to be bad incidents, bad decisions...or plain old stupid and criminal actions by a few.  But we are judged as a whole for the actions of a few........which is the responsibility we bear, but damn....it's hard sometimes.


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## policemedic (Apr 12, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> You don't think body cameras play a role?



I think body cameras overwhelmingly exonerate police of wrongdoing, especially when the footage is scientifically  examined and dissected.


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## policemedic (Apr 12, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> I don't....we have had dashcams and audio recordings since 2001, actually before that, but mandated for all marked units in 2001 in Texas. Body cameras might help cut down on complaints in good shootings, but the media coverage and social media doesn't care if it is a good shooting or bad shooting...they still complain/demonstrate/protest......the problem with cameras and body cams is the public and media expect instant release of video to the public.....people don't care that it's evidence and a investigation is pending ... they want it now, and if they don't get it now...they say the Police are hiding something.
> 
> Cameras are good tools and have saved many an officer for frivolous complaints and are great for evidence......but in shootings, it doesn't matter in the public eye....it always bad for us and we lose in social media.....which is all that seems to matter now days.



That, plus what the video shows is not the whole truth. It has to be examined and explained in context.


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## policemedic (Apr 12, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> Agree.......even with the bad shootings that have been highlighted in the past.....we forget that officers respond to *tens of thousands of calls a day across the nation*, arrest thousands a day, confront violent situations thousands of times a day......of course there are going to be bad incidents, bad decisions...or plain old stupid and criminal actions by a few.  But we are judged as a whole for the actions of a few........which is the responsibility we bear, but damn....it's hard sometimes.



We had over 200k calls for service last year and we are relatively small (~116 sworn, the number goes up and down). We had only 5 complaints against police. I think all 5 turned out out to be unfounded. The last four police shootings we were involved in--we killed them all by the way--did not result in lawsuits or complaints.


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## Ooh-Rah (May 10, 2017)

So a few racist incidents that have really begun to cause problems in small town Minnesota.  Those of us who even suggested the 'anonymous' notes could possibly be a hoax or faked have been called racist ourselves.  Okay...well fuck-you-very-much cocksuckers. 

Yeah, I'm pissed,   Because I fucking KNEW this was fake.

St. Olaf: Student 'fabricated' reported racist note left on a black student's windshield

Now I'm waiting for the Delano, MN anonymous incident to be shown as faked.  As if there is not enough racist shit going on in this country....

Delano kicks off anti-racism campaign with candlelight vigil


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## Gunz (May 10, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> So a few racist incidents that have really begun to cause problems in small town Minnesota.  Those of us who even suggested the 'anonymous' notes could possibly be a hoax or faked have been called racist ourselves.  Okay...well fuck-you-very-much cocksuckers.
> 
> Yeah, I'm pissed,   Because I fucking KNEW this was fake.
> 
> ...




Rest assured there's always some asshole who wants to pour gas on any fire.


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