# PJ's duty within a mixed unit?



## sinvin (Oct 18, 2013)

_-_ In the event that a PJ gets attached to SF/SEAL/MARSOC team which already has its' own SOCM trained 18d, SACR, and/or corpsman, what becomes that PJ's field of responsibility?   _[In response to my interest in AF Pararescue, an older SF retiree told me in jest, "you're 6'2 and 220 pounds! You're gonna be a glorified mule if you ever get attached to an SFG cause that 18d is gonna wanna shoot." -- is there truth to this?] 

- In real life application and in light of current events/conflicts, which SOF component would have the most opportunity to perform rescue type operations (not counting casevac/medevac)?_
_

PS: I'd rather not bore you with my reasons for asking, but if you're really curious, my into post: http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/threads/russian-man-sof-wannabe-intro.19192/_


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## amlove21 (Oct 18, 2013)

sinvin said:


> _-_ In the event that a PJ gets attached to SF/SEAL/MARSOC team which already has its' own SOCM trained 18d, SACR, and/or corpsman, what becomes that PJ's field of responsibility?   _[In response to my interest in AF Pararescue, an older SF retiree told me in jest, "you're 6'2 and 220 pounds! You're gonna be a glorified mule if you ever get attached to an SFG cause that 18d is gonna wanna shoot." -- is there truth to this?]_


So, this question is because you (and your SF retiree) don't understand a Pararescueman's primary capability. We are not medics. In your scenario of 'attachment' (formally called 'direct support'), the team I am going to would already have a medic. Teams that request PJ's to be their medic get turned down if I am the one handling the request. We are not medics, we are tactical rescue specialists. We are great at trauma medicine, and the good PJ's are great at field medicine as well, but that's just one tool in our toolbox. I will refrain from geeking out further on this topic. We aren't medics, so our responsibility doesn't change in the presence of another medic- that responsibility is Technical Rescue Specialty, a ground combat professional steeped in air warfare expertise and an air/ground liaison. That's our lane.
In ref: "_glorified mule because the 18D wants to shoot..." _I say this not as posturing, but as an example of an actual scenario I was personally in- if the D wants to throw me his med bag, and get in the stack- fine. But he has to out shoot me in front of his team, and if I win- then he gets the med bag AND my extrication gear, and I go on the stack. As far as you being a glorified mule- I urge you to come to my Troop. I could use you, and I refuse to let you carry other team's gear. That's not our job. And any ODA (not SFG) that would try to use you as such would find their further request for PJ's denied. For the record, I don't have experience with this in the 'real world', except working with EURSOF. I usually just say something like, "Hey, if you are too weak to carry your assigned gear, and you need the American to put it in his ruck cause I am stronger than you- no problem! Gimme your heavy stuff, little guy." That usually solves the issue right there.


sinvin said:


> _In real life application and in light of current events/conflicts, which SOF component would have the most opportunity to perform rescue type operations (not counting casevac/medevac)?_


Every service is tasked with the rescue and recovery of their own assests/personnel. Pararescue is the only force specifically trained/equipped in the DoD for PR. CASEVAC/MEDEVAC is not PR. It's CASEVAC/MEDEVAC. Also, CASEVAC/MEDEVAC are not the same thing nor are they interchangeable. Another topic that would take too many electrons to get into here. The short answer? Whoever is closest. Barring a 'close' unit, then the people with the best possible asset effects recovery. Who that is depends on the AO, available assets, mission set, tasking authority, etc.


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## sinvin (Oct 18, 2013)

Mr. Amlove21, your words of wisdom are priceless. Thank You.


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## amlove21 (Oct 18, 2013)

sinvin said:


> Mr. Amlove21, your words of wisdom are priceless. Thank You.


Not wisdom, just observations and perspective. And no problem. 

If you have questions about getting into Pararescue, check out the SOF Mentor Sub Forum. Good info. PM me after you've done the research and hit a wall with a question.


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## goon175 (Oct 23, 2013)

I learned a shit-ton in that post, awesome!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 23, 2013)

amlove21 said:


> Pararescue is the only force specifically trained/equipped in the DoD for PR.



Edit: no need to dive into the weeds, opsec, etc.

Did you mean that Pararescue is the only career field in DoD with that specific PR mission statement?


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## amlove21 (Oct 23, 2013)

JAB said:


> Edit: no need to dive into the weeds, opsec, etc.
> 
> Did you mean that Pararescue is the only career field in DoD with that specific PR mission statement?


Well, yes- meaning I meant exactly what I said, and also how you paraphrased it. 

JP 3-50 is extensive and verbose in it's definition of PR. Pararescue is the only career field in the DoD that is specifically trained, equipped, and employed to provide PR across the joint environment. Every service is tasked with the recovery of their own forces (Navy SAR swimmers, Marine TRAP teams, Army Pathfinders to an extent are all examples of units capable to do PR- but so is a leg infantry unit, by doctrine), but Pararescue is the only force specifically trained/equipped to provide inter/intra service PR as it's primary mission set.


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## AWP (Oct 23, 2013)

amlove21 said:


> So, this question is because you (and your SF retiree) don't understand a Pararescueman's primary capability.


 
First, you know I'm not arguing with you.

Your problem is that of perception (I'm sure everyone is tired of me saying that perception is reality, but...it is). A Marine TRAP rescues Scott O'Grady and your own service publishes stuff like this:

http://www.afcent.af.mil/news/story.asp?id=123247413



> As a medical evacuation team, the squadron collects injured personnel from the battlefield, provides stabilizing treatment in transit, and then delivers them to a hospital as soon as possible.


 
or

http://www.airforcetimes.com/article/20130212/NEWS/302120314/Last-rescue-squadrons-leaving-Kandahar



> During the squadron's time in Afghanistan, one of its jobs was to help the Army evacuate wounded troops under fire, Barnard said. But as the Afghans have taken more of a lead role, the number of such missions has declined.


 
I understand some of the backstories and decisions involved, but I'd say a lot of folks do not.

Conversely, you're hosed if you sat around BAF or KAF all day waiting for a plane crash. "What do those PJ's do anyway? All they do is sit around and play video games. Why do we need them?"

To an outsider it is an ugly scene, I can only imagine the insider's view and frustrations.


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## x SF med (Oct 23, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> ...
> 
> To an outsider it is an ugly scene, I can only imagine the insider's view and frustrations.


 
But Amlove can sit around and research fiberbased hair products and better methods of being a flight medic and links to new Punisher T-shirts....  that's all PJ's can do, right?   (note sarcasm...  kids, do not try this at home with a real live PJ in your living room, you might get dead...)

It is sad that even the mother Service doesn't know how to market the capabilities of their premier interservice SOF teams...  really sad.


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## amlove21 (Oct 23, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> First, you know I'm not arguing with you....


It's totally Ok if you are. 

The stories do highlight the stark lack of understanding as to what a PJ is actually capable of providing, and what a unit of Pararescuemen can do. What's even worse? The team room of PJs will sit there and complain that the term "Guardian Angels" is used- and PJ isn't- but no one will stomp on someone's desk and refuse to be called a "Guardian Angel". The highest levels of leadership won't do as much as a point paper to admonish the AF for calling us that, when we have a proud tradition as PJ's. We don't respect ourselves enough as a career field to protect our distinctive name and capability, and I can rail on about it all I want- the confusion is driven by the chain of command, sometimes our career field itself.


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## DA SWO (Oct 23, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> First, you know I'm not arguing with you.
> 
> Your problem is that of perception (I'm sure everyone is tired of me saying that perception is reality, but...it is). A Marine TRAP rescues Scott O'Grady and your own service publishes stuff like this:
> 
> ...


TRAP got the mission because it was a daylight rescue.

JSOTF Cdr and the MEU had a gentleman's agreement that TRAP would cover daylight missions and the JSOTF would cover nighttime missions.

FWIW- A-10s and MC-130P's were orbiting over the sea in case TRAP had problems, funny how that never gets mentioned.


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## reed11b (Oct 23, 2013)

Perhaps if SOCOM actually added PR to the SOF mission set and dumped enabling missions used by SOF and NON-SOF alike, such as Civil Affairs and Psy-ops, I mean MISO.
Reed


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## TLDR20 (Oct 23, 2013)

reed11b said:


> Perhaps if SOCOM actually added PR to the SOF mission set and dumped enabling missions used by SOF and NON-SOF alike, such as Civil Affairs and Psy-ops, I mean MISO.
> Reed



I am pretty sure that most SOF units can go get a downed pilot, I don't think they could cut them out of the cockpit without special tools.


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## x SF med (Oct 23, 2013)

amlove21 said:


> It's totally Ok if you are.
> 
> The stories do highlight the stark lack of understanding as to what a PJ is actually capable of providing, ...


 
Well, moms always tell kids to go get into their PJ's, right?  so PJ's are more than just sleeping duds... they provide comfort, warmth and grooming tips too...  and occasionally work a CASEVAC mission with supervision from nurses, or go out with SF teams to learn from the 18Ds...  and occasionally will grill steaks and chicken for visiting dignitaries...  with ice cream for dessert!:-"


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## amlove21 (Oct 23, 2013)

reed11b said:


> Perhaps if SOCOM actually added PR to the SOF mission set and dumped enabling missions used by SOF and NON-SOF alike, such as Civil Affairs and Psy-ops, I mean MISO.
> Reed


So PR is 100% a collateral mission set of SOF. It falls under Direct Action as one of the 9 tenets of SO. Here is a quote, which PJ's are always quick to point out and add "...except for Pararescue" at the end.

_SOF frequently
conduct the following seven collateral activities:
coalition support, *combat search and rescue*, counterdrug
activities, countermine activities, foreign humanitarian
assistance, security assistance, and special activities. SOF
are not manned, trained, and equipped for collateral
activities.
_
Also, check Chapter II, page II-12. In the "Recovery Operations" paragraph. Specifically, PR can (and will) be handled by any SOF team; but Pararescue is a highly specialized team able to perform this collateral function without degrading another team not specifically tasked with PR.

Any SOF element (or NON-SOF for that matter) can effect recovery. Pararescue has made Personnel Recovery it's primary mission set, and we market ourselves as specialists in the arena, that do not degrade from the other SOF units' primary mission sets. And those enabling missions? They are going nowhere. Especially with the impending tactical withdrawl from OEF, those teams are going to get much more play, because of the shift to FID/UW that is, IMO, coming in a big way.

Sorry to geek out there- if you REALLY want to get into the weeds, look up JP 3-50.s, it specifically addresses CSAR/PR.


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## amlove21 (Oct 23, 2013)

x SF med said:


> Well, moms always tell kids to go get into their PJ's, right?  so PJ's are more than just sleeping duds... they provide comfort, warmth and grooming tips too...  and occasionally work a CASEVAC mission with supervision from nurses, or go out with SF teams to learn from the 18Ds...  and occasionally will grill steaks and chicken for visiting dignitaries...  with ice cream for dessert!:-"


I wanna hate you- but I just can't.


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## goon175 (Oct 23, 2013)

I suppose it's not much different than how certain units are specifically trained and equipped to do hostage rescue, even though many other units can and have done it in the past.


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## x SF med (Oct 23, 2013)

amlove21 said:


> I wanna hate you- but I just can't.


 
the truth can be hated, but truth will always win.   (plus, if read with the right amlove sarcastically bitter tone, it is actually funny)


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## 0699 (Oct 24, 2013)

SOWT said:


> *TRAP got the mission because it was a daylight rescue.*
> 
> JSOTF Cdr and the MEU had a gentleman's agreement that TRAP would cover daylight missions and the JSOTF would cover nighttime missions.
> 
> FWIW- A-10s and MC-130P's were orbiting over the sea in case TRAP had problems, funny how that never gets mentioned.


 
Fortunately for the TRAP platoon, the MEU CO and MEU SgtMaj went along to provide leadership on target. 

Yes, I'm still a little pissed off about it. :-/


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## AWP (Oct 24, 2013)

0699 said:


> Fortunately for the TRAP platoon, the MEU CO and MEU SgtMaj went along to provide leadership on target.
> 
> Yes, I'm still a little pissed off about it. :-/


 
Perchance, were CAR's involved after the fact?


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## 0699 (Oct 24, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> Perchance, were CAR's involved after the fact?


 
Ya think? :-"


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