# The Kill Team



## NatureNinja22 (Jun 21, 2018)

Has anyone seen the 2013 documentary _The Kill Team? _If not I'll summarize. Basically a few men in an Army infantry platoon murderred 3 Afhgani civilians in cold blood back in 2010. In the end, the men in the platoon were caught and brought to justice, but one thing stuck out to me about the movie in particular. 

At the end of the movie, a private that was involved with the murders said that murders committed on civilian Afghanis were commonplace and took place all throughout combat positions in the military. Is this true? To me it seems like there is something seriously wrong if so.


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## NatureNinja22 (Jun 21, 2018)

Can someone explain to me why my post was disliked? I have a complete civilian perspective here so maybe there is something offensive in my post?


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 21, 2018)

@Kaldak -


To the OP:

My initial reaction was to “dislike” your post as well. Think about the audience of whom you are asking the question to.

You are brand new here and have never served in the military. How forthcoming do you expect folks to be with you around such an unpleasant topic?


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## NatureNinja22 (Jun 21, 2018)

I have no idea how forthcoming a topic like this will be. I don't know anything about the general view of this topic nor if it is a touchy subject. I have no problem deleting the post. I'm not trying to stir controversy or bother anyone.


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## NatureNinja22 (Jun 21, 2018)

@Ooh-Rah 

I enjoy being a member of this forum so I'd like to keep the privilege of being a member. How can I delete this post so that I may refrain from offending more people. Apologies to all whom I have offended.


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## Grunt (Jun 21, 2018)

You have not offended me. You have to understand that we are all a little skeptical of any "documentary" that shows that our guys are willy-nilly killing *anyone* without reason -- especially to where we are described as being a *Kill Team.*

We are generally the first to cry out and condemn murdering clowns - especially if they are in a uniform.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 21, 2018)

NatureNinja22 said:


> @Ooh-Rah
> 
> I enjoy being a member of this forum so I'd like to keep the privilege of being a member. How can I delete this post so that I may refrain from offending more people. Apologies to all whom I have offended.



No need to delete, and you did not do anything wrong.  As is said here often, sometimes it is best to ‘read more and post less.”

The search function on this site is one of the best on any forum, pick a topic and and read the threads....it can be a fun rabbit hole to go down.  Doing so will give you a better idea of who’s who, and which topics are better left alone until you are more established.

Glad to have you here!


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## NatureNinja22 (Jun 21, 2018)

Agoge said:


> You have not offended me. You have to understand that we are all a little skeptical of any "documentary" that shows that our guys are willy-nilly killing *anyone* without reason -- especially to where we are described as being a *Kill Team.*
> 
> We are generally the first to cry out and condemn murdering clowns - especially if they are in a uniform.


That's really good to know. I assume 99% of people who have been in combat are decent people that take no pleasure in these acts. I appreciate your input.


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## NatureNinja22 (Jun 21, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> No need to delete, and you did not do anything wrong.  As is said here often, sometimes it is best to ‘read more and post less.”
> 
> The search function on this site is one of the best on any forum, pick a topic and and read the threads....it can be a fun rabbit hole to go down.  Doing so will give you a better idea of who’s who, and which topics are better left alone until you are more established.
> 
> Glad to have you here!


I will remember that. Thank you.


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## Kaldak (Jun 21, 2018)

What @Ooh-Rah said and @Agoge said.

Sadly there will always be a bad apple or two in the whole of any orchard. The question and thread title rub me wrong. Nothing towards you personally.


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## NatureNinja22 (Jun 21, 2018)

Kaldak said:


> What @Ooh-Rah said and @Agoge said.
> 
> Sadly there will always be a bad apple or two in the whole of any orchard. The question and thread title rub me wrong. Nothing towards you personally.


Understood. Thank you.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 21, 2018)

Yes, I saw the video.  In fact, I moderated a screening of the movie and panel discussiOn with Adam Winfield and the “Kill Team” producer when they came to West Point a couple of years back.  If I remember correctly there were about 500 cadets and faculty in the audience. They asked some really tough and thoughtful questions and the panel members were extremely forthcoming. 

In answer to your question, the assertion that murders are, or were, widespread is absolutely ridiculous.  The modern US military is perhaps the most disciplined, and certainly the most heavily monitored, fighting force that has ever existed.  I deployed to Iraq and Afghanistan seven times and never committed or observed any war crimes.  They are rare.  Unless you believe “anything more than one” is “commonplace,” then it’s not.

I personally found the events laid out in the book “Black Hearts” to be far more disturbing than “Kill Team.”


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## Gunz (Jun 21, 2018)

We had actual "Kill Teams" in my unit--and that's the only reason I looked at this thread. But our KTs (Kilo Tangos) were comprised of two or three Marines with a radio, rifles, kabars and frags who left the main ambush site to prowl the trails in search of the enemy--NOT civilian targets.

To add: I've been called a "Baby Killer" by some hippy bitch just for serving my country honorably in an unpopular war. I don't take kindly to any suggestions that American Warfighters are murderers.


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## AWP (Jun 21, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> In answer to your question, the assertion that murders are, or were, widespread is absolutely ridiculous.  The modern US military is perhaps the most disciplined, and certainly the most heavily monitored, fighting force that has ever existed.



This.

---

Widespread, organized killing of civilians and we have a documentary, and only a blurb in a documentary as "evidence?" Yeah, I'm good. Next up, Afghan Clue. It was AWP in the tunnel with a hammer.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 21, 2018)

^yep. And I think people tend to forget that Kill Team was pretty much Adam Winfield’s defense team’s project. It didn’t even try to be objective.

Kil Team and Black Hearts are extreme examples, but they are useful to show what can happen if  NCOs and junior officers aren’t in everyone’s business on a consistent basis.  Bad things can happen when young men are scared, bored, angry, and armed.


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## SpitfireV (Jun 21, 2018)

I think the basic thing to look at is: If this is true and was widespread, where are the independant sources? There'd be multiple.

If a secretive unit like the SASR can't keep alleged war crimes secret, what hope would multiple regular force units have?


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## Gunz (Jun 22, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> ...Kil Team and Black Hearts are extreme examples, but they are useful to show what can happen if *NCOs and junior officers aren’t in everyone’s business on a consistent basis.  Bad things can happen when young men are scared, bored, angry, and armed.*




True. If those young men lack solid training, if they don't have a clear understanding of the mission, if they start to resent the locals for their own predicament, for the losses they've suffered, if they're exhausted and sleep deprived, if morale and attitudes are at an all-time low...bad things can happen in seconds. Calley is an extreme and rare example, a bad officer leading demoralized draftees...but in every war, in every army, we can find flash-point atrocities against civilians.

But, as you wrote, sir:

_"The modern US military is perhaps the most disciplined, and certainly the most heavily monitored, fighting force that has ever existed."_

 I also believe it would be very hard these days for a William Calley to make it through the pipeline.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 22, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> I also believe it would be very hard these days for a William Calley to make it through the pipeline.



Having taught at West Point for the last five years, I’m not so sure brother. ;)


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## Gunz (Jun 22, 2018)

Yes sir, I forgot about Spencer Rapone and some of the other asshats who've tarnished the Academy over the years. Thankfully they are in the minority.


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## Muppet (Jun 22, 2018)

I've seen it pop up on NETFLIX. I've made the decision, not to watch it, based on the aforementioned comments made by my brethern here.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 22, 2018)

Don't listen to anything a Pvt says. They don't know anything, that's why they are Pvt's.



Marauder06 said:


> I personally found the events laid out in the book “Black Hearts” to be far more disturbing than “Kill Team.”



Couldn't agree more on Black Heart's, that book is testament of what happens when leadership breaks down on all levels. Things about that book bother me to this day. And it's been 4 or 5 years since I read that book.


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jun 28, 2018)

NatureNinja22 said:


> Has anyone seen the 2013 documentary _The Kill Team?..._ Basically a few men in an Army infantry platoon murderred 3 Afhgani civilians in cold blood back in 2010. *In the end, the men in the platoon were caught and brought to justice*...


 

Probably always in the GWOT.



> At the end of the movie, a private that was involved with the murders said that murders committed on civilian Afghanis were commonplace and took place all throughout combat positions in the military. Is this true? ...



No.


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## Topkick (Jun 28, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Don't listen to anything a Pvt says. They don't know anything, that's why they are Pvt's.
> 
> 
> 
> Couldn't agree more on Black Heart's, that book is testament of what happens when leadership breaks down on all levels. Things about that book bother me to this day. And it's been 4 or 5 years since I read that book.


Blackhearts should be required reading for all NCOs and Officers.


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## BloodStripe (Jun 28, 2018)

Topkick said:


> Blackhearts should be required reading for all NCOs and Officers.



Agreed.


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## Marine0311 (Jun 28, 2018)

Topkick said:


> Blackhearts should be required reading for all NCOs and Officers.



Why?


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## Topkick (Jun 28, 2018)

I really feel that with reading Blackhearts, you will have no choice but to increase your situational awareness as a leader. You'll be reminded that you have stay in touch with your troops and always know what's going on at the lowest level.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 28, 2018)

Marine0311 said:


> Why?



It really dives into all aspects of a breakdown,  from continued supervision of discipline to health and welfare to moral management, to aspects of understanding the limitations of unit personnel vs mission requirements, etc, etc. 

I absolutely agree it should be mandatory reading from TL's up to Brigade Cdr's. The book basically breaks down how the leadership from the ground up to Brigade level failed, resulting in unnecessary casualties, to war crimes and the rape and murder of a young girl and her family, and just about everything in between. 

Can't recommend it enough brother. It will change the way you think as a leader.


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## BloodStripe (Jun 28, 2018)

One of my favorite college professors, who is about as far left as one can get, introduced me to that book in my Intro to Biography course.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 28, 2018)

Topkick said:


> Blackhearts should be required reading for all NCOs and Officers.



It’s required in the Officership capstone at West Point.  Every cadets is required to read it.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 28, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> One of my favorite college professors, who is about as far left as one can get, introduced me to that book in my Intro to Biography course.


That doesn’t surprise me.  In addition to being well written, it portrays the US Army in a very unfavorable (albeit true) light.


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## Topkick (Jun 28, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> That doesn’t surprise me.  In addition to being well written, it portrays the US Army in a very unfavorable (albeit true) light.


 Agree. My first thought about @NavyBuyer post was that professor may have had an ulterior motive.


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## BloodStripe (Jun 28, 2018)

Absolutely, and I wouldn't be shocked if that were the case. Either way, its a phenomenal book and one that everyone should read. I think it's been discussed on this site multiple times.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 28, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Absolutely, and I wouldn't be shocked if that were the case. Either way, its a phenomenal book and one that everyone should read. I think it's been discussed on this site multiple times.



Do you see anything in this book they would transfer to the business world?


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## BloodStripe (Jun 28, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Do you see anything in this book they would transfer to the business world?



Yes, but know your audience. Not everyone will grasp the lessons in a business world.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 28, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Do you see anything in this book they would transfer to the business world?



Sure, I think there are many.  Here are the first four that popped into my head, in no particular order:

1)  INSPECT WHAT YOU EXPECT.  Subordinates do well the things that the boss inspects.  In just about any work environment, "shenanigans" is the default setting.  If you don't want shenanigans to ensue in your team, get out there and check on them.  Not only will this help them avoid doing the wrong thing, you will often catch them doing the right thing, which is also good.  Example:  Joe drinking, doing drugs, and generally screwing off at the traffic control points, because they knew there was literally zero chance of someone in authority rolling up on them.

2)  LITTLE THINGS, WHEN LEFT UNCHECKED, BECOME BIG THINGS OVER TIME.  Allowing subordinates to take shortcuts and ignore rules, even silly-seeming ones, is dangerous from a leadership perspective.  If a deviation from a standard is required, then YOU make the call.  When you allow your subordinates to pick and choose which rules they follow, they'll eventually abuse it to the point that they'll devolve to the point of doing whatever the hell they want.  See also:  shenanigans.  Example:  letting military courtesy and uniform standards slide eventually made the Soldiers in Black Hearts decide that they were the masters of their own disciplinary destiny, to the point where they decided to rape a 14-year-old girl and murder her and her entire family.  This does NOT mean that there is a zero-defects standard when it comes to initiative or bona fide operational necessity, but it does mean that if there is a deviation, there better be a damn good reason other than "I felt like it."

3)  THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR BEING PHYSICALLY PRESENT.  Leadership is a contact sport.  You have to be within arm's reach, at least periodically, of your subordinates.  And it has to be in their natural habitat, not yours.  Get out there and see what they are doing and how they are living.  It's hard to manage effectively over email or through VTC, although sometimes that's the only way.  This is different from inspections.  Be there to lead, especially if a job is dirty, dangerous, or distasteful.  Example:  SFC Fenlason and CPT Goodwin were considered cowards by their men because they generally "led" from the FOB.  This greatly limited their situational awareness, and more importantly, diminished their credibility with their troops.

And that leads us to the last lesson:

4)  NEVER GIVE ANYONE A REASON TO THINK YOU"RE A COWARD.  EVER.  This is physically and morally.  This applies up, laterally, and down.  Have the guts to hold your own people responsible when it's required, and do what it takes to make sure the behavior is punished or corrected appropriately.  Examples:  PFC Green (the puported ringleader) was a dirtbag, and everyone knew it.  But he was "our" dirtbag, so they kept making excuses for him and covering up for him until... well, if you don't know the details, read the book.


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## Poccington (Jun 29, 2018)

Topkick said:


> Blackhearts should be required reading for all NCOs and Officers.



Most definitely.

I keep my copy on the top shelf of my locker in work.


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## AWP (Oct 26, 2018)

I finally watched the Kill Team yesterday courtesy of Amazon Prime. 

- As I posted earlier in this thread, I don't buy the widespread killing allegation.
- As @Marauder06 said, it is basically Winfield's defense/ explanation.
- Where in the hell was the PL and PSG? You have the same squad killing civilians using the same story and you don't even care? Or did they and the movie decided to leave that out?
- I seriously can't understand Winfield's decision to report this while on deployment. He knows he's going back to the same group of guys who are murdering people? His leadership didn't hear the allegations and reassign him? The same with the other guy in the platoon? WTH was going on there?
- Posing with the people they murdered bothered me more than the actual murders. Disgusting.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 26, 2018)

AWP said:


> I finally watched the Kill Team yesterday courtesy of Amazon Prime.
> 
> - As I posted earlier in this thread, I don't buy the widespread killing allegation.
> - As @Marauder06 said, it is basically Winfield's defense/ explanation.
> ...



I asked Winfield that exact question.  I believe his response was that the LT was "on the cot beside me."  From what I remember, Winfield said words to the effect that the LT didn't participate in the drugs, murders, etc., but also didn't ask any questions when the privates were out late doing private things and coming back smelling like hash, and wasn't physically out there supervising / being present.

A bunch of the men featured in Black Hearts came back to West Point this year, including a few who had no love for each other.  Justin Watt, the whistle blower, explained that after he reported Green's crimes, the battalion commander ordered him out on a checkpoint where he was more or less left out there alone an unafraid.  The way Watt explained it, he believes the BC wanted him to get killed.  I never talked to the BC so I don't have the other side of the story, but I share because it kind of relates to your observations of Winfield.


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## AWP (Oct 26, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> I asked Winfield that exact question.  I believe his response was that the LT was "on the cot beside me."  From what I remember, Winfield said words to the effect that the LT didn't participate in the drugs, murders, etc., but also didn't ask any questions when the privates were out late doing private things and coming back smelling like hash, and wasn't physically out there supervising / being present.



The LT should be charged with accessory to murder, cowardice, jaywalking, anything. No Honorable discharge, nothing. 

"Responsible for all the platoon does or fails to do" is a phrase I heard often while in uniform.


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 30, 2018)

NatureNinja22 said:


> At the end of the movie, a private that was involved with the murders said that murders committed on civilian Afghanis were commonplace and took place all throughout combat positions in the military. Is this true? To me it seems like there is something seriously wrong if so.



Not saying that I concur with the private or his silly ass observations but it always amuses me when people are so disturbed or shocked by actions in a wartime environment being less-than-civil or "cruel." You learn very quickly that what you find mentally bearable/acceptable needs to change drastically in order for you to come home with an ounce of sanity left let alone your own life.

Its also funny that nobody was ever an admin or logistics guy in Afghanistan - everyone was a gunfighter who saw all the evil the world had to offer...


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## AWP (Feb 6, 2019)

I read _Blackhearts _between Abu Dhabi and Newfoundland. Holy shit. You talk about a dumpster fire from BDE Commander down to the PFC's and EVERYONE in between... They did the exact opposite of everything you learn in a leadership course AT ANY LEVEL. That story is utterly insane. It should be required reading for everyone in uniform, the unit's failures in the book are THAT universal.


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