# Your 2022 Relieved Naval Commander Thread



## Steve1839 (Jun 12, 2022)

Not a good week to be an O5 in the Navy....

Three Navy commanders relieved of duty in the past week


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 12, 2022)

I used to relish these annual threads, laugh at the whole stupidity that would get these guys fired.

Nowadays though, there’s just not as much humor. When I see career officers being fired for “inappropriate behavior“ I often think to myself, inappropriate to whom?

Did they really do some thing that egregious, or did they just do or say something In 2022 that would have gone unnoticed in 2012.

The Navy and Marine Corps like to kick around the phrase “lack of confidence in his/her abllity to lead “ , well I have a lack of confidence in Navy and Marine Corps ability to lead.  (Channeling Al Pacino’s “out of order” speech).

- Edited for grammar


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## AWP (Jun 12, 2022)

#FAFO

Commanding a squadron or ship must be the highest of highs coupled with the knowledge than the wrong word can lead to a relief of command.

Imagine the Navy saying you've earned the right to command a strike fighter squadron, but knowing you're on the razor's edge if something goes wrong. That is terrifying and...how do you shrink away from the challenge?

Amidst all of that you're taking that squadron to war?

O-5's across the services have faced that for the last 20 years. Whatever my complaints, gripes, and outright criticism of the military...strong work. Props to those who brought their people home.


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## Teufel (Jun 14, 2022)

AWP said:


> #FAFO
> 
> Commanding a squadron or ship must be the highest of highs coupled with the knowledge than the wrong word can lead to a relief of command.
> 
> ...


The number of command programs has exploded as well. All of them inspected annually.   There is way more bureaucracy across all command functions than there used to be.


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## Gunz (Jun 14, 2022)

The Navy hasn’t had a good naval war to fight since 1945. Yeah, carrier ops, cruise missile strikes, SEALs conducting ops on land and stealing glory from the blue water crowd…but no real damn-the-torpedos-shit on the bounding main since the days of Bull Halsey. 

If they had to worry about people sinking their aircraft carriers, maybe there wouldn’t be so much time to focus on bureaucratic bullshit and woke culture politics.


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## Steve1839 (Jun 14, 2022)

And the hits keep on coming...

Navy fires five officers in less than a week


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## AWP (Jun 14, 2022)

“We know what it is like to be hired, fired, and replaced without warning.”
- Every Taliban Deputy Commander from 2001 to 2020


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## Teufel (Jun 17, 2022)

Officials: Destroyer Preble CO relieved following DUI arrest

Well this explains why Pete got fired.


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## Cookie_ (Jun 17, 2022)

The prevalence of firings on "loss of trust and confidence" reminds me of this article from The Warhorse.

It details a specific instance of the Marines using the phrase with a Lt. Col fired for being charged with DV.



> ... the release had been stripped of any explanation for the relief of command and offered only “lost trust and confidence”—a term all too common to reporters who cover the military. It’s often used as a catchall when a top commander has been removed from a post as a way to avoid details, even if those details are publicly reportable, as is the case with domestic violence.



They also do a quick run down of a bunch of the (semi) recent firings across the force that were for "loss of trust and confidence" and highlight some of the actual reasons people were removed.



> The War Horse found that since 2013, at least 13 senior Army officers have been relieved for “loss of trust and confidence” following myriad unauthorized or illegal behaviors. A lieutenant general plagiarised essays at a military school. Two major generals were relieved for failing to properly handle reports of sexual assault. At least three brigadier generals were also removed: one for unknown reasons, one for poor performance, and one for disrespecting subordinates. In another case, a colonel provided free medical care to unauthorized civilians. The details were withheld for at least three other colonels relieved of their commands. Many of the officers appear to still be serving on active duty.
> 
> The War Horse identified at least 29 relieved Air Force commanders during this investigation. Two lieutenant colonels were fired for hazing. Two major generals were fired, one for an unprofessional relationship and the other for unspecified allegations of misconduct. A third major general, the service’s highest-ranking female fighter pilot, was fired for fostering a “toxic” unit climate. One of them, a brigadier general who was relieved for allegedly abusing her position of authority at the Air Force Academy, now serves as the chief of staff for the Space Force.
> 
> ...


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## Gunz (Jun 18, 2022)

“A senior officer lied repeatedly about the location of his vessel.”


“Be advised, we are conducting combat drills 2 miles off Virginia Beach.” Sound of Mardi Gras in background, girls giggling, screams, loud rock music. “I say again, and I’m serious…we are not anywhere having fun…”


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## Teufel (Jun 19, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> The prevalence of firings on "loss of trust and confidence" reminds me of this article from The Warhorse.
> 
> It details a specific instance of the Marines using the phrase with a Lt. Col fired for being charged with DV.
> 
> ...


The Zavala case is interesting because as I understand it the allegations were never proven and there was no evidence such as photographs or police reports to back up his ex wife’s allegations. I don’t think it went to trial and Zavala was never charged with any crimes for it. It seems that in these cases though you are presumed guilty before being found innocent unfortunately. I think that’s part of why the military obfuscates the reason for relief sometimes. These are very public events and the threshold for evidence is very low. That said he could also be guilty of those crimes. We will never know for sure but either way he received a form of sentencing.


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## Kaldak (Jun 19, 2022)

Teufel said:


> The Zavala case is interesting because as I understand it the allegations were never proven and there was no evidence such as photographs or police reports to back up his ex wife’s allegations. I don’t think it went to trial and Zavala was never charged with any crimes for it. It seems that in these cases though *you are presumed guilty before being found innocent* unfortunately. I think that’s part of why the military obfuscates the reason for relief sometimes. These are very public events and the threshold for evidence is very low.



Sad, but true, and wrong in my opinion. But, .mil do .mil as always.

ETA: See bold.


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## Gunz (Jun 20, 2022)

Kaldak said:


> Sad, but true, and wrong in my opinion. But, .mil do .mil as always.
> 
> ETA: See bold.



The list of indiscretions and offenses that can get you shitcanned gets longer every day. And if they run out, they’ll invent new ones.


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## Dame (Sep 8, 2022)

Not quite sure where to put this. Remember this guy? The real question is, how long has he been gone?
‘Fat Leonard,’ Former Contractor in Navy Bribery Scandal, Escapes House Arrest


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## AWP (Sep 8, 2022)

How have we gone this long without the Navy relieving someone?


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## Marauder06 (Sep 8, 2022)

AWP said:


> How have we gone this long without the Navy relieving someone?


We probably just missed it in the news.  I'm sure it has been happening.


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 8, 2022)

My kingdom for the ability to Thread Merge.  

"Fat Leonard" Scandal


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## Teufel (Sep 9, 2022)

A sailor, harassed by her XO, alleges her superiors didn’t intervene

On May 10, the Navy quietly fired the second-in-command of a Florida-based training unit after an investigation found he sexually harassed female subordinates.

Witnesses recalled how Cmdr. Richard Martinez, then-executive officer of the Center for Naval Aviation Technical Training Unit Jacksonville, told a female petty officer to remove her mask during a November evaluation debrief so that he could see her “pretty face,” or words to that effect, part of a “pattern of making unprofessional and inappropriate comments during the performance evaluation debriefs.”

Happened in May but hit the news recently.


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## Teufel (Sep 9, 2022)

Coast Guard Sidelines Cutter Commander After Mishap on Board

The Coast Guard has relieved the commander of the National Security Cutter James while the service investigates an undisclosed incident that occurred on board.

Capt. Marc Brandt was relieved Aug. 26 and temporarily reassigned to Coast Guard Atlantic Area in Portsmouth following a mishap in which "no personnel were injured," according to a press release published Friday. The service did not provide further details.


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## Teufel (Sep 9, 2022)

Navy Fires Commander Over ‘Loss of Confidence in His Ability to Command’

The Navy announced in a Monday release that it has fired Rear Adm. Trent DeMoss, commander of Fleet Readiness Centers (FRCs), “due to a loss of confidence in his ability to command.” Capt. Christopher Couch, COMFRC vice commander, has taken over his duties until the Navy finds a replacement. According to his bio on the Navy’s website,


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## Teufel (Sep 9, 2022)

Navy Orders High-Level Outside Investigation of SEAL Course

It looks like CAPT Geary was quietly replaced in May

"
Navy Orders High-Level Outside Investigation of SEAL Course

The punishing selection course for the Navy’s most elite force has come under new scrutiny after a sailor’s death exposed illicit drug use and other problems.
Sept. 9, 2022, 6:39 p.m. ET

The Navy has started an independent investigation of the brutal selection course for its elite SEALs after a sailor’s death this year revealed a tangle of physical abuse, poor medical oversight and use of performance-enhancing drugs in the course.
The order for the new investigation came from the highest levels of the Navy — the outgoing vice chief of naval operations, Adm. William K. Lescher. It was given to a rear admiral from outside the SEALs, signaling that the Navy had given it high priority and wanted it to be independent.
Admiral Lescher issued the order in a letter obtained by The New York Times. The letter is dated the day after The New York Times reported that the sailor’s death had exposed a number of problems at the harrowing selection course, known as Basic Underwater Demolition/SEALs, or BUD/S for short.

Among the problems were a damaging ethos of forced suffering that often dismissed serious injuries and illnesses as weakness and a growing subculture of students who saw illicit performance-enhancing drugs as the only way to get through the course.

Admiral Lescher’s letter ordered investigators to focus on a broad swath of issues in the course, including its safety measures, the qualifications of instructors and medical personnel and its drug testing policies for students. It also asked what, if anything, had changed at the course since February, when a 24-year-old former elite college athlete, Kyle Mullen, died hours after completing its most punishing phase. The vice chief gave investigators 30 days to report their findings.

The Naval Special Warfare Command, which includes the SEALs, had been looking into Seaman Mullen’s death and the surrounding issues on its own, and its findings were supposed to have been released in August. But they were held back after top Navy leaders indicated that they thought the report placed too much blame on the sailor and not enough on failures in the SEALs, according to a Navy official who is familiar with discussions about the report. The official asked not to be identified by name because he was not authorized to comment on an unreleased report.

The vice chief’s letter now directs the Special Warfare Command to stick to a very narrow inquiry into whether Seaman Mullen’s death occurred in the line of duty and to leave the larger questions to the outside investigators.

Asked about the admiral’s decision to start the new investigation, a Navy spokesman issued a statement saying that “the Navy remains committed to transparency and ensuring the final reports are thorough, accurate, impartial, and that confidence and credibility are maintained throughout the entire process.”

The BUD/S course takes place on the gritty beach sand and in the cold ocean waters of Naval Amphibious Base Coronado near San Diego. It has a reputation as the most physically grueling selection course in the military. Candidates endure weeks of carrying heavy logs and inflatable boats, lengthy sessions of situps and pull-ups in frigid surf, “drown-proofing” exercises underwater with bound hands, and days and nights spent cold, wet, sandy and exhausted.

The SEALs say they need that kind of unforgiving rite of passage to select the rare individuals who can perform some of the military’s most challenging missions. Few sailors who attempt the course complete it — over the past 20 years, an average of just one in four — and the proportion has been shrinking.

According to Navy data, the average passing rate plunged suddenly in February 2021 to about half of what it typically had been in prior years. Since then, in some classes, only 7 percent of sailors have made it through. Several SEALs and BUD/S candidates said that the course had recently become even harder and that warnings to commanders about dangerous changes had largely gone unheeded.

The drop roughly coincided with the arrival of a new command team led by Capt. Bradley Geary, a decorated officer who served for a time in the SEALs’ most elite and secretive counterterrorism unit, known to the public as SEAL Team Six but referred to by SEALs as DevGru.
In December, the Navy gave Captain Geary an award for outstanding leadership in a previous command assignment. His acceptance speech included a quotation from Francis Bacon: “Prosperity doth best discover vice, but adversity doth best discover virtue.”
While Captain Geary was in charge, several changes were made at BUD/S, according to four current and former Navy personnel with knowledge of operations there. They asked not to be named because they feared retaliation from the tight-knit SEAL community.

A key change, they said, was removing a number of senior civilian advisers — all of them retired SEALs — whose job had been to watch over training, guide young instructors and step in if they saw unnecessary abuse or alarming medical problems. The instructor staff was packed with men recently moved from DevGru, and instructors were given greater leeway to run classes as they saw fit, three of the Navy personnel said. With few civilian advisers around, they said, the leash was effectively off. Captain Geary, who SEALs say is respected in their community, was transferred from command of BUD/S shortly after Seaman Mullen died. He did not respond to several requests for comment.

Five sailors who were BUD/S students in 2021 or 2022 described a savage intensity that few SEALs before them had seen. The sailors asked not to be identified because they feared retaliation. They said instructors had hit, kicked and otherwise abused students and had often devised ways to try to drive them to quit. Each BUD/S class is assigned a proctor — a SEAL instructor whose job is to be an ally and mentor for the students. But several of the sailors said their proctor would use his nightly mentoring sessions to inflict more punishment, having students run for miles in the dark and plunge repeatedly into the ocean.

Injured BUD/S students were called weaklings and quitters, and at times they were punished for seeking help. Medical personnel often stood by silently, or in some cases participated in the abuse, the sailors said. Students were often allowed only two or three hours of sleep a night in the first weeks of the course, they said, even though their days were jammed with extreme physical toil. Exhausted immune systems broke down. Diarrhea, vomiting and pneumonia became common, but the sailors said students had tried to hide symptoms from instructors who seemed to target the injured.

One man who entered BUD/S in 2021 said he had gone to instructors at 5 a.m. one day with a painfully swollen leg, telling them that he believed it was broken and that he needed to see the medical staff. He said instructors had responded that the medical clinic did not open until 7 a.m. and had then ordered him to wait the two hours in the cold Pacific surf while the rest of the class was ordered to chant his name and tell him to quit. Medical personnel stood watching for an hour before pulling him from the water with hypothermia, he said. Medical documents show that he ended up in the hospital, where he had to have surgery to remove a flesh-eating infection.

SEALs who went through BUD/S years ago said they had never experienced that kind of abuse. A retired SEAL whose son recently tried to complete BUD/S said in an interview that when he had seen his son two weeks into the course, the young sailor was so swollen and covered with abrasions that he looked as if he had been in a motorcycle wreck. The father secretly got his son to a civilian doctor to get help without attracting the ire of instructors, he said. The son dropped out in the third week from exhaustion and injuries. The retired SEAL said when he had qualified in the 1990s, BUD/S was hard, but the focus had been largely about learning teamwork and mental toughness. What his son experienced, he said, was more like “Lord of the Flies.” The parent asked to be anonymous to protect his son, who is still in the Navy.

Four of the recent BUD/S candidates said that sailors had been using drugs to get through the course and that when instructors had briefed their classes on drug use, the emphasis was on not getting caught. Parents, former SEALs and other Navy employees said in interviews that they had reached out to the SEAL chain of command, warning about dangerous conditions. The Navy official with knowledge of the investigative report said some changes had been made at BUD/S in response to those warnings, allowing students more sleep and dialing back the hardest parts of the course.

It was not enough to prevent a death. The pace at BUD/S did not relent even after Seaman Mullen died in February. The next class passed even fewer students, and a number of sailors dropped out because of infections or broken bones.
The Navy official said that a number of instructors had been moved out of BUD/S training since February but that none had received any official punishment. Many are still instructors in later stages of SEAL training, he said."


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## pardus (Sep 10, 2022)

If those allegations are true, it's an absolute fucking disgrace that the SEAL community should be ashamed of. Personally I think that mentality is pathetic, "It needs to be this tough/abusive etc... because of our mission set" Really? Does any other non third world country SOF unit act like that in training? The results of the investigation will be interesting.


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 10, 2022)

pardus said:


> If those allegations are true, it's an absolute fucking disgrace that the SEAL community should be ashamed of. Personally I think that mentality is pathetic, "It needs to be this tough/abusive etc... because of our mission set" Really? Does any other non third world country SOF unit act like that in training? The results of the investigation will be interesting.


Thank you for so perfectly articulating what I have been trying to write over and over for about the last 20 minutes.


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## DasBoot (Sep 10, 2022)

You know it’s bad when veterans from your community are turning on you…


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## Cookie_ (Sep 10, 2022)

pardus said:


> If those allegations are true, it's an absolute fucking disgrace that the SEAL community should be ashamed of. Personally I think that mentality is pathetic, "It needs to be this tough/abusive etc... because of our mission set" Really? Does any other non third world country SOF unit act like that in training? The results of the investigation will be interesting.


Even third world countries aren't that bad. Fuck, the Chinese don't treat their dudes that bad.

Most comparable I can think of are thai/filipino(not sure which) troops being kicked, but even then that pales in comparison.


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## DasBoot (Sep 10, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> Even third world countries aren't that bad. Fuck, the Chinese don't treat their dudes that bad.
> 
> Most comparable I can think of are thai/filipino(not sure which) troops being kicked, but even then that pales in comparison.


There is a point of suffering where people who won’t quit, just won’t quit. Now there is a level where people start getting hurt and have to factor in long term, permanent damage. It seems the BUD/S cadre found a way to make the no quitters finally quit… which is disgraceful.


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## AWP (Sep 11, 2022)

I keep typing a response, over several days, so I'll just trim it to this:

Matthew Cole's book, and allegations against DEVGRU, are allegedly false according to some. Fine, I understand. We've covered that elsewhere.

Here we are, SEAL on SEAL (trainee) violence with a strong DEVGRU connection, but Cole's book is bullshit? I guess once you kill a Green Beret and try to cover that up, a SEAL trainee is nothing. Shit on an American who gave his life to save others in order to protect your command's reputation and deny that hero his due for the nation's highest award? Some lowly trainee doesn't stand a chance.

If this were a biker gang or something, the Feds would prefer RICO charges on the organization...


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## JedisonsDad (Sep 13, 2022)

What surprises me is that it’s supposedly the lack of contractor oversight that led to this. In my experience, it was the contractors acting as the gate keepers, going on and on about “back in my day”.


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## Devildoc (Sep 13, 2022)

AWP said:


> I keep typing a response, over several days, so I'll just trim it to this:
> 
> _*Matthew Cole's book, and allegations against DEVGRU, are allegedly false according to some. Fine, I understand. We've covered that elsewhere.
> *_
> ...



Maybe it needs to be the 35th thing (or whatever) for them to finally notice, "hey, there's a pattern here...."


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## DA SWO (Sep 21, 2022)

The War Horse identified at least 29 relieved Air Force commanders during this investigation. Two lieutenant colonels were fired for hazing. Two major generals were fired, one for an unprofessional relationship and the other for unspecified allegations of misconduct. *A third major general, the service’s highest-ranking female fighter pilot, was fired for fostering a “toxic” unit climate. *_One of them, a brigadier general who was relieved for allegedly abusing her position of authority at the Air Force Academy, now serves as the chief of staff for the Space Force._

I know the female MG who was fired, she was being prepped for her third star.  She commanded the NATO AWACS wing, and some misconduct emerged once the Pentagon based investigation started.  Essentially having subordinates do personal chores while she attended meetings.  She ran the SAP Program Office and apparently turned into a screaming banshee, SES level individual asked SecAF to remove her.  (This is all public and easy to find, MG Dawn Dunlap).

The BG at the Academy is a real piece of work, TDY funds forr personal travel, blamed her staff.  But hey, if your a lesbian it's all good, we'll give you another job so you can keep your star (this came out and is fairly easy to find).


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## ThunderHorse (Sep 27, 2022)

JedisonsDad said:


> What surprises me is that it’s supposedly the lack of contractor oversight that led to this. In my experience, it was the contractors acting as the gate keepers, going on and on about “back in my day”.



This is interesting, I knew a guy who helped start a big vetbro clothingcompany. He obviously sold his piece and started other businesses. Those businesses were just a side hustle until pre-pandemic. He was a contract BUD/S instructor. I had no idea that Navy used contractors as instructors until he "retired" from being a contractor.


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## Teufel (Nov 9, 2022)

Navy fires warship CO in the middle of a deployment

The commanding officer of the guided-missile cruiser Normandy was relieved of command Tuesday in the middle of the warship’s deployment, and less than eight months after he took command.

The Navy announced the firing in a brief press release stating that Capt. Simon McKeon was relieved “due to a loss of confidence in his ability to command.” It offered few other comments regarding the reasons behind the relief.


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## Teufel (Nov 9, 2022)

And…
Navy fires CO of Ohio recruiting unit

The commanding officer of an Ohio-based Navy recruiting unit was relieved of command Wednesday for reasons that remain unclear.

Cmdr. John Mullen was fired as head of Navy Talent Acquisition Group Ohio River Valley due to what a Navy press release called a “loss of confidence in his ability to command.”


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## Gunz (Nov 14, 2022)

I have a loss of confidence in the Navy’s ability.


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## AWP (Nov 14, 2022)




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## Gunz (Nov 20, 2022)

Navy fires CO of Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 31


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## Devildoc (Nov 20, 2022)

Gunz said:


> Navy fires CO of Air Test and Evaluation Squadron 31



Oof, DWI is the kiss of death.


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## DA SWO (Nov 20, 2022)

Devildoc said:


> Oof, DWI is the kiss of death.


She has 22 years (if the time as a midshipman counts for retirement), she should just drop her papers and move on if possible.


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## Devildoc (Nov 20, 2022)

DA SWO said:


> She has 22 years (if the time as a midshipman counts for retirement), she should just drop her papers and move on if possible.



Yes.  Her Navy career is over.


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## Teufel (Nov 21, 2022)

DA SWO said:


> She has 22 years (if the time as a midshipman counts for retirement), she should just drop her papers and move on if possible.


It does not count towards retirement unfortunately.


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## AWP (Nov 21, 2022)

But will they kick her out or bury her in a trash  job until she hits 20?


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## Devildoc (Nov 21, 2022)

AWP said:


> But will they kick her out or bury her in a trash  job until she hits 20?



Depends on if she has a Sea Daddy and if the Annapolis Alumni Protective Association supports her staying...


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## Teufel (Nov 21, 2022)

AWP said:


> But will they kick her out or bury her in a trash  job until she hits 20?


I assume she will ride it out until 20. DWI is cause for relief but probably not cause for ADSEP.


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## AWP (Nov 21, 2022)

Shout out to the officer corps for treating O’s and E’s the same regardless of rank.


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## Devildoc (Nov 21, 2022)

AWP said:


> Shout out to the officer corps for treating O’s and E’s the same regardless of rank.



'Hate' not on you, brother.  We all know what would happen if an 'E' caught a DWI.


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## pardus (Nov 21, 2022)

AWP said:


> Shout out to the officer corps for treating O’s and E’s the same regardless of rank.


It’s really quite disgusting when you think about it. Just shows the true worth of “our greatest asset”.


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## DA SWO (Nov 21, 2022)

Teufel said:


> It does not count towards retirement unfortunately.


Sucks to be her then.  She'll ride it out until 20 some years, but she won't be getting awesome assignments.

18+ on the books makes it harder to toss her, and on the E vs O treatment, I'll bet if she was E-9 they'd find a way to keep her too.


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## Steve1839 (Nov 21, 2022)

DA SWO said:


> 18+ on the books makes it harder to toss her, and on the E vs O treatment, I'll bet if she was E-9 they'd find a way to keep her too.


Agree. When I was the SDO as a 2LT, I had to pick up the Ops SGM from the MPs for DUI...three years later, he was a company SGM in a Special Forces battalion...he retired with 30 years, serving another 5-10 years after the DUI.


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## Teufel (Nov 21, 2022)

AWP said:


> Shout out to the officer corps for treating O’s and E’s the same regardless of rank.


I’ve never seen anyone ADSEPed for a DUI. You may not get reenlisted or promoted but not ADSEPed.


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## Teufel (Nov 21, 2022)

Devildoc said:


> 'Hate' not on you, brother.  We all know what would happen if an 'E' caught a DWI.


NJP and loss of one rank if E5 and below, complete contract. E6 and above likely a page 11 entry or 6105.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 21, 2022)

AWP said:


> Shout out to the officer corps for treating O’s and E’s the same regardless of rank.



Hey now, we had a Sergeant First Class in  2-1 ABCT that got three DUIs...inside a year. Mind, his license was suspended. And they still didn't separate his ass. DCSM must have liked him.


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