# Looking for new rifles.



## Ranger Psych (Nov 6, 2008)

Rifle #1 Requirements:

1 MOA or better accuracy
Semi-automatic
Mag fed
7.62x51

Rifle #2

1 MOA or better
.50 BMG


What's out there, and better yet, what's currently in HHC 3/75 (PM if necessary and you know what section I'm talking about.)


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 7, 2008)

#1: Start with a Remington 700 (.308) and build from there.


----------



## HOLLiS (Nov 7, 2008)

SOWT said:


> #1: Start with a Remington 700 (.308) and build from there.



Problem is the semi auto request.  SR25, AR10, M1A1.


----------



## GSXRanger (Nov 7, 2008)

My next one is a .308 auto loader too... just haven't decided on which one yet. So, I'm interested in the comments on this thread... Anyone have any experience with the DPMS Panther series?

This is similar to what I am looking at building...







http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=1999


----------



## pardus (Nov 7, 2008)

http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=20

http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=17


----------



## HOLLiS (Nov 7, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=20
> 
> http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=17



I am a very big fan of the M1A1.  

We did a 1000M shoot a number of years ago with a M1A1 using iron sights.  The target was 2 ft by 3 ft.   I managed to hit the target 4 out of 5 times in about 10 - 15 seconds.  We were shooting off the bag.  


I would not recommend the rifle for CQC, because of the obvious better choices out there.  But for 100 to 600M a very fine addition.   It is not a bolt gun.  The gas system can be turned off.


----------



## pardus (Nov 7, 2008)

HOLLiS said:


> The gas system can be turned off.



Really? 

Interesting, is that for sniping?


----------



## HOLLiS (Nov 7, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> Really?
> 
> Interesting, is that for sniping?



I have to rattle some old brain cells.  I think it was originally intended for a rifle grenade,  really not sure about that, never saw one. 

Turning off the gas does increase felt recoil.  We tried that at the range once.  I never done it since, did not a reason too.  The valve is on the right side of the rifle on the between the barrel and gas cylinder located at the end of the fore piece. 


I read once it was reported to have reduce the size of the group slightly.  

I just don't see the M14 as a sniper rifle,  DSM is about as good as it gets.  We had a person we called a company sniper, actually more like a DSM that would get a M14.   They were just a expert shooter.   The real deal snipers where MOSed and where given the real deal bold guns.  Rem 700 (or Winchesters 70s).


----------



## pardus (Nov 7, 2008)

Roger that.


----------



## arizonaguide (Nov 7, 2008)

Hey RS, didn't know if you'd seen my earlier thread:
"_best 7.62 NATO for civilian (home) purchase?" _here:
https://shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=15428

One of the conclusions I came up with was also the Panther, and had heard good things: ($989) http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=5355&cat=1737
But also WISH I could afford the SOCOM.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Nov 7, 2008)

I'm probably going with an AR-10 variant either from Armalite or DPMS. The SR-25's are too wishy washy as far as accuracy etc according to my sources. 

Probably will end up buying 2, the wife's good at long range as well.


----------



## HOLLiS (Nov 7, 2008)

Ranger Psych said:


> I'm probably going with an AR-10 variant either from Armalite or DPMS. The SR-25's are too wishy washy as far as accuracy etc according to my sources.
> 
> Probably will end up buying 2, the wife's good at long range as well.



No kidding, besides you can buy two AR10 for the price of a SR 25.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Nov 7, 2008)

well a SR runs 2500 or so depending on what you get, I saw a couple different variants (cut down barrel, standard length, blah blah) on gunbroker... prices varied depending on attached and included toys.

A DPMS Panther in 308 with the setup I want looks like 2,300-2,500 bucks. Folding VFG, harris bipod, couple other nicnacks.

A RRA in 7.62 is 1,125.00
Magpul PRS stock is 255
Daniel Defense freefloat quad rail is 400.

so 1800 for a RRA without flipup sights, cool pistol grip, VFG, Bipod, Bipod adapter, scope ring system, and some other gidgets.

Basically the same price, but I like RRA weapons anyway. They seem to always do very nice and are good and tight on tolerances which is what I would be looking for given the purpose of accuracy.

I need to buy a 6 axis milling machine so I can fabricate uppers and lowers up here, and/or win the lotto so I can be the de-facto state tactical weapons depot.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Nov 7, 2008)

Panther™ LRT-SASS

Congratulations, you've completed building your custom product.
Product Description 	Price
Panther™ LRT-SASS
Model: RFLRT-SASS
	$2,109.00
Barrel Upgrade: Cryo-Accurizing
Model: UG-36
	$85.00
Standard Charging Handle to: Tactical Latch Charging Handle Assembly
Model: UG-73
	$43.95
Current A2 Pistol Grip to: Panther™ Tactical Grip
Model: UG-78
	$48.95

19 Round Steel Magazine for .308, .260, & .243
Model: MA-3082
	$44.95
Yankee Hill Aluminum Bipod Adapter
Model: BI-YHM-638
	$29.95
Harris Ultralight Bipod Series S Model L
Model: BI-LS
	$99.95
10 Round Steel Magazine for .308, .260, .243
Model: MA-3081
	$44.95
A-15 Flat Top
Model: MT15-15150
	$74.95
DPMS "Receiver Rug" (Molded)
Model: LR-RRM
	$8.95
Yankee Hill Quick Action Folding Grip
Model: VG-YHM-9640
	$74.50
Accessories Product Total 	$2,665.10


Just for a price comparison.


----------



## CAL (Nov 7, 2008)

Where did you order from? (I'm jealous, btw)


----------



## Ranger Psych (Nov 7, 2008)

That isn't an order, but simply data directly off the DPMS site. But, it's somewhat along the lines of what I will probably end up with.


----------



## CAL (Nov 7, 2008)

Ranger Psych said:


> That isn't an order, but simply data directly off the DPMS site. But, it's somewhat along the lines of what I will probably end up with.


Then I'm no longer jealous.


----------



## 8'Duece (Nov 7, 2008)

*LaRue Tactical Optimized Sniper Rifle*

LaRue Tactical is alway's on the cutting edge of inovation. 

Heres' the 762 Optimized Sniper Rifle. 

HERE: http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=268

Here also with some upgrades: http://stores.homestead.com/Laruetactical/Detail.bok?no=268


----------



## HOLLiS (Nov 8, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> LaRue Tactical is alway's on the cutting edge of inovation.
> 
> Heres' the 762 Optimized Sniper Rifle.
> 
> ...



Let me chime in a word of support for LaRue.   1st class company,  also Most important part,  Check out his 'Dillos (No troll not dildo)  Great gifts of high quality beer bottle openers.


----------



## peefyloo (Nov 9, 2008)

I have a Noveske in 7.62 with a 18" barrel on it.

It's pretty similar to this:
http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bi...r-18-762&cat=55&page=1&search=&since=&status=

I tweaked it a little bit though.


----------



## Rabid Badger (Nov 9, 2008)

I'm not an SR-25 or AR-10 FAN....once you've taken 800 yd head shots - hold left eye with the M24 floating barrel - Rem 700...IMHO..there's nothin better..

Yes, semi-auto is fast, not that much faster nor accurate...

By the time I had to wait for the recoil on a 24, I could have racked another round and been on the left eye just as fast, with more accuracy, with the M24/700....

For me, shooting the 25 was the same as shooting a long-range M-4...on which I had to wait for recoil for a double-tap.

You have to shoot the gun with some consistency to feel the difference. 

That goes for pistol, rifle, shotgun...any nomenclature of arms..

:2c:


----------



## arizonaguide (Nov 9, 2008)

RB's got a point.
I've heard of guys getting 2 rounds in the air at the same time (on their way to actually HITTING the target) with the 700 on longer ranges.  Course they could have been blowing smoke up a nieve civillian's ass, too.


----------



## pardus (Nov 10, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> I'm not an SR-25 or AR-10 FAN....once you've taken 800 yd head shots - hold left eye with the M24 floating barrel - Rem 700...IMHO..there's nothin better..
> 
> Yes, semi-auto is fast, not that much faster nor accurate...
> 
> ...





arizonaguide said:


> RB's got a point.
> I've heard of guys getting 2 rounds in the air at the same time (on their way to actually HITTING the target) with the 700 on longer ranges.  Course they could have been blowing smoke up a nieve civillian's ass, too.



Watch this from 2:45 ;)

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ck66O0osLhQ&feature=related"]YouTube - TOP 10:Combat Rifles - Lee Enfield No4(No.3)[/ame]

And...



> This is how it was done. They're all aimed shots and a good grouping. This chap was the winner of the LERA (Lee Enfireld Rifle Association)competition especially for 100 years of the SMLE taken on a military range in England.



[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6m1yN-3n0FU"]YouTube - LERA - Mad Minute - SMLE 100 Year Anniversary[/ame]


----------



## Ranger Psych (Nov 10, 2008)

Razor:  i understand it's not going to be as accurate, however 1) I already have a 700 sendero heavy barrel freefloated in 7 mag, probably rebarreling to 338 lapua.

2) this is a zombie invasion oh-shit the jackboots are coming for my guns a nuke went off in anchorage bug-out and keep people the fuck away from me gun.

Entering and clearing with a bolt action is not high on my list of recommended things to do. I have that option with an ar-10.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Nov 10, 2008)

the tubes are clogging and doubleposting my commentary.


----------



## 08steeda (Nov 11, 2008)

I agree with RB that a bolt has always been more accurate for true sniper work. 

However the semi-auto is pretty darn accurate for a battle rifle and is also capable of dealing with more targets in a shorter amount of time without having to perfect the triangle (Form/Welds/Technique), (physic's=Ballistics/Env Calc's) and (ability).

A good marksman should be effective out in excess of 500 Meters with an AR or M1A type of semi-auto in 7.62(.308).

Granting the fact that truly remarkable shooters called snipers can do magic with a bolt gun and especially at longer distances (800 - 1000 and beyond).

But the fit needs to match the function. Me, I like the idea of having the ability to reach out and touch a target at extreme distances hence my SAKO in 7mm Mag with a top of the line scope or my Remington VSF in 22-250. But then I am only a paper puncher. With Camp Parry the only long range within reason my shooting is typically held to a 200 - 300 YD range about 30 minutes from home. So much for real long distance stuff.

But I think the OP is looking for a long distance battle rifle and not a 1000 Meter Widow Maker.

Personally I would be looking at the new .416 in the AR style rifle for a long shooter that is still Semi-Auto.

Personally I like the Stoner XM-110 for 7.62 NATO. This is strictly on NET research and articles. I have not seen one in person yet!


----------



## Ranger Psych (Nov 11, 2008)

I'm not buying an oh-shit rifle in some frigging oddball caliber that I can't proquire from 98% of retail stores that carry firearms.

Walk down to walmart and tell me they have 416. What do they have? A crap pile of 308, 30-06, 300WM, 338 Winchester, .223 etc. Plan for resupply with ammunition that is common.  

Exactly how much 7.62x39 is carried there vs "nato" ammunition or its civilian counterparts? Just something to think about.

Basically what I'm looking for is something that has the capacity to be able to hold a group on a standard silouette out to 600-700 meters. I can ping things at 500 with my AR all day, I want longer reach in a weapon system that is still capable of being used as a close quarters weapon, albeit not as easily as a CQM built 5.56 rifle with a min legal length barrel, etc.

Not to mention the fact that cover to 5.56 turns to concealment with 7.62 at specific ranges.

If i want/need to take the "long shot" then yes I'll transition to the bolt gun, I have one, it works, it's clean, it's upstairs in the pelican.  

I don't NEED, or particularily want, another bolt gun. 

I have an AR in 5.56.  That's the wife's rifle once I purchase whatever this rifle ends up being and pimp it out appropriately.  

the specifications are stated for a reason, there is a specific role that I am looking to fit with this weapon system in my personal tactical plan.

I appreciate the discussion, however.


----------



## HOLLiS (Nov 11, 2008)

Let's not get to excited.  Every rifle and caliber has trade offs with pros and cons.  No one thing does it all.  I guess it is a guy thing, make a pickup in to a lowered sports car and a sports car into a raised 4 X 4.   

What generally makes a long range shooter, takes the CQC out of the firearm and visa versa.  

There are two parts the design of the rifle, what it takes to do what you want it do most.   Then you have calibers to fulfill the needs of what you want.  

If your capable of building what ever you want, then you can build that dream firearm.  If not, then your limited to what is on the market.  

For a 600 - 700 M rifle.  accuracy?  retained muzzle energy?  are factors that need to be considered.   There are reason CQC rifles are about the same, and long range shooters are similar.  

A good read, is "Accurate Rifle".   


In CQC a 6 inch group is still very very lethal when firing under 100M, at 50M it is within a 3 in circle.    

Things that just cost more. 

More accuracy,
less weight
less recoil with more retained muzzle energy
range, reach out an touch someone.

Most people will use a firearm for a range of different types of shooting, so that fire represents a compromise of needs.   Few people actually have a firearm for a specific purpose.   They can tune that firearm for the specific needs of one style of shooting.  A person can not, have both in one rifle. 

Over the years there have always been firearms that offered two barrels for different calibers, interchangeable barrels and accessories to adjust the firearm for a different need.  They have never been very popular.  Success has been varied.   I think, people like simplicity over complexity.   KISS is a well proven acronym.   

My approach, seemed to work for me, own more not less (in firearms).  If you have one firearm, know how to use it and know it limitations.    If you need a room sweeper, buy the best room sweeper you can find.  Don't expect it to compete with 1000M highly accurate rifles.   (Visa versa too).

I am a strong believer that the most importance part of all of this, is the shooter.



Edited to add, one of the things I have noticed that is also a guy thing, is they some guys will buy all the gizzmos that they think it will make them a better shooter, rather than train themselves to be a better shooter.   A person can buy the latest and coolest of all rifles ever made, that does not mean they will be a better shooter because they now own that rifle.


----------



## 08steeda (Nov 11, 2008)

HOLLiS

"A person can buy the latest and coolest of all rifles ever made, that does not mean they will be a better shooter because they now own that rifle."

So very, very true!!! That was my Dad in a nut shell. He had firearms in his safe when he died that he never fired! But he had them!!! I guess that was his thing. I like to be able to shoot well and keep improving on that!!!

Now I just need to find someone who can teach me the 800 or 1000 Meter Shot here in Michigan!


----------



## arizonaguide (Nov 11, 2008)

Ranger Psych said:


> I'm not buying an oh-shit rifle in some frigging oddball caliber that I can't proquire from 98% of retail stores that carry firearms.
> 
> Walk down to walmart and tell me they have 416. What do they have? A crap pile of 308, 30-06, 300WM, 338 Winchester, .223 etc. Plan for resupply with ammunition that is common.
> 
> ...



The real question is HOW MUCH ($$$) are you willing to spend, and what is ACTUALLY still available between now and the upcoming ban (perhaps as soon as January?).
It's hard to advise with these unknowns.

I think you hit the nail on the head with that Panther that you had speced out, but it's a crap shoot to know if you'll get one before they're banned.  For example, I'm already starting to look at Lever Action and Pump alternatives if I can't get the $$$/availability to line up properly in the remaining timeframe.  Perhaps getting a 7.62 lower receiver/mags in the meantime. (if $$$/Availability).


----------



## Ranger Psych (Nov 11, 2008)

about 3500$ on weapon and optics/accessories is my budget for this weapon system.

Then another 1500 on ammunition stores.


----------



## HOLLiS (Nov 11, 2008)

Ranger Psych said:


> about 3500$ on weapon and optics/accessories is my budget for this weapon system.
> 
> Then another 1500 on ammunition stores.



Better get hoppin,   A friend, who went to a recent gun show, said the ammo dudes where sold in the first 2 hours.


----------



## 08steeda (Nov 12, 2008)

Yeah, 2 local gun shops had about 15 or 20 AR's between them and they are ALL gone! Plus the local gun show must have had another 75 - 100 AR's and the only thing left where a couple Wild-Cat variants.

They also went thru 30 or 40 recievers. Ammo was gone by the time I got there Friday night.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Nov 12, 2008)

I'll be doing the ammo online, lake city penetrator for the AR and match grade stuff for the 308... there's battlepack 7.62 locally available. The weapon I'll end up getting off gunbroker and purchasing accessories locally.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 12, 2008)

Ranger Psych said:


> I'm not buying an oh-shit rifle in some frigging oddball caliber that I can't proquire from 98% of retail stores that carry firearms.
> 
> 223 and 308 got it, so why a .50 cal?
> 
> ...




I prefer the NM M14 for a semi 308!


----------



## arizonaguide (Nov 12, 2008)

He's in Alaska...the personal tactical plan may involve Bears!:cool:
I'm going with 45-70 for my personal tactical bear plan...(or 12ga at CQB ranges).


I think GSX hit it at the beginning:
http://www.dpmsinc.com/store/products/?prod=1999
Or, go with a SOCOM/M1/M14.  For $3500 you could get a tricked out M1A!!!
http://www.springfield-armory.com/armory.php?model=18


----------



## MontereyJack (Nov 14, 2008)

Patriot Ordnance Factory has a gas piston .308 semi automatic rifle based on AR-15 parts if you are interested.

http://www.pof-usa.com/p308/P-308-20-MRR-CF-308-SPR-C.R.O.S..htm
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZx3lJbtnBI


----------



## MontereyJack (Nov 14, 2008)

Another .308 rifle to consider is the Robinson Arms XCR-M .308. Gas operated, piston driven, made in the USA.

http://www.robarm.com/index.htm
They currently offer the XCR in 5.56mm, 6.5mm, 6.8mm and 7.62X39mm. They are in the process of completing a .308 version and should have it ready soon.


----------

