# Marines to axe 8th Marines, all armor, some aviation



## Devildoc (Mar 23, 2020)

Knock me over with a feather...

Marines to Shut Down All Tank Units, Cut Infantry Battalions in Major Overhaul


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## Kaldak (Mar 23, 2020)

I saw an article yesterday in WSJ. It was behind a pay wall sadly. They are reducing rotary wing squadrons too.

It be getting crazy.


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## Marine0311 (Mar 24, 2020)

Dumb move. For combined arms you need a happy marriage of tanks and grunts.


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 24, 2020)

Kaldak said:


> I saw an article yesterday in WSJ. It was behind a pay wall sadly. They are reducing rotary wing squadrons too.
> 
> It be getting crazy.


I’ll see if I can find it and convert to PDF.

ETA:
Found it.


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## BloodStripe (Mar 24, 2020)

Marine0311 said:


> Dumb move. For combined arms you need a happy marriage of tanks and grunts.



Yea, not sure a MAGTF will actually be a MAGTF without. It reads like they want to start equipping grunts with tank killing rockets, but they killed off 0351's only about 2 years ago.


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## Board and Seize (Mar 24, 2020)

I highly recommend reading Gen Berger's CPG for all the context on what he's doing.  

This reshaping is not for Gulf War III with USMC as a supplemental US Army. His vision is somewhat radical, and taking the Marine Corps back to "soldiers of the sea"-style supporting force for the USN.


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## Devildoc (Mar 24, 2020)

Board and Seize said:


> I highly recommend reading Gen Berger's CPG for all the context on what he's doing.
> 
> This reshaping is not for Gulf War III with USMC as a supplemental US Army. His vision is somewhat radical, and taking the Marine Corps back to "soldiers of the sea"-style supporting force for the USN.



First, I doubt GEN Berger will contact me to ask my opinion, so there's that.  I don't necessarily disagree with where he wants to go, but damn, this is radical.

Second, I can conceptually get _some_ of the armor.  Maybe.  But all of it?  And the aviation?  But what really stymies me is axing 8th Marines.


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## TYW27 (Mar 24, 2020)

Has the Commandant actually put out his guidance yet or is this still speculation? I've been watching this since my buddy told me the plan, but I haven't seen anything coming directly from General Berger yet. I know he plans to restructure the force pretty radically, but I didn't think he dropped his plan yet.


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## Marine0311 (Mar 24, 2020)

Board and Seize said:


> I highly recommend reading Gen Berger's CPG for all the context on what he's doing.
> 
> This reshaping is not for Gulf War III with USMC as a supplemental US Army. His vision is somewhat radical, and taking the Marine Corps back to "soldiers of the sea"-style supporting force for the USN.



I will read it. I don't see it how doing this will change for the good. If the grunts are walking around an encounter armor beyond the firepower they carry (on their backs), unless they have AAV's or LAV's nearby you need to call air and drones (air?).


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## J. (Mar 24, 2020)

I’m busy at the moment but will make a more detailed post later today.


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## Teufel (Mar 24, 2020)

I wonder if the current crisis will make this all OBE. This is all based on current Marine Corps budget projections. That's all going to be out the window when this is all over with. CMC intended to shrink the Corps to buy capabilities. I worry that we may have to shrink just to survive when the budgetary knives come out next fall.


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## 0699 (Mar 25, 2020)

Devildoc said:


> But what really stymies me is axing 8th Marines.


I read the article that they're really only getting rid of the regimental CP and 3/8.  Sounds like the other two battalions are going to plus up 2nd & 6th Marines.


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## J. (Mar 25, 2020)

To say I am personally devastated is saying the least. Everyone’s specific situation is going to be different so I won’t comment on it but almost all of us are going to be forced out or early separated. My career as a Marine is over.

The loss of the combined arms breach ability will cost Marines lives. The loss of armor protected shock firepower will cost Marines lives. The loss of the best anti tank ground weapons system the Marine Corps has will cost Marines lives.

I have read the plan, the guidance and understand what the commandant wants. The Marine Corps is fighting for relevance and is willing to sacrifice generations worth of specific combat and tactical knowledge to get it. So be it, I won’t be there to see it, wasn’t even asked to.

All I know is I am heart broken, not only because I am getting told to go away by the organization that I served tirelessly, but because in my heart I know in our next conflict  that an 18yr old manning a TOW will be cut in half believing in that same organization and that he is the best weapon they have to fight a tank...

I cannot even believe I am one of the last Tank Commanders the Marine Corps will ever have. I have to fight the thought of wondering was this even all worth it? My body has been forever battered by my job, herniated discs, multiple contusions, nerve damage and TBIs. All for this to be the end state...

I don’t work in a shape at DC and quite frankly I am too emotionally involved to speak any more on it without extreme personal bias so I’m not going to comment any further.

To all who have ridden the steel chariots of war, it was an honor to serve along side you and carry your legacy to its end.
Semper Fidelis.


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 25, 2020)

J. said:


> To say I am personally devastated is saying the least. Everyone’s specific situation is going to be different so I won’t comment on it but almost all of us are going to be forced out or early separated. My career as a Marine is over.
> 
> The loss of the combined arms breach ability will cost Marines lives. The loss of armor protected shock firepower will cost Marines lives. The loss of the best anti tank ground weapons system the Marine Corps has will cost Marines lives.
> 
> ...


Thank you for writing that.


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## 0699 (Mar 25, 2020)

Are they getting rid of the reserve tank battalions too?


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## J. (Mar 25, 2020)

0699 said:


> Are they getting rid of the reserve tank battalions too?



All of them. Everyone will be gone by FY22.


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## 0699 (Mar 26, 2020)

Wow.


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 26, 2020)

Marine Corps Times spin on the topic.

The Marines want to get rid of their tanks. Here’s why.


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## BloodStripe (Apr 2, 2020)

J. said:


> All of them. Everyone will be gone by FY22.




On the slightly positive side...

Commandant Says He Won’t Force Out Marines as the Service Shrinks


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## J. (Apr 2, 2020)

BloodStripe said:


> On the slightly positive side...
> 
> Commandant Says He Won’t Force Out Marines as the Service Shrinks



As an active member and very much involved in my community I won’t speak for the official means of how we are “moving” our Marines but, there is a lot more going on at our level than what is in that article. 

There’s a ton of passive ways this is taking place, TIS, TIG, MOS, EAS, Boatspaces, Eligibility for lateral move, what the Army is offering (Rank reduction) etc. that all plays a role in this. 

Some people have more opportunities than others based on the above, some have very few.


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## ThunderHorse (Apr 2, 2020)

I've known a lot of Marine Tank Officers, they were some of the best workers and most tactically sound Officers I've ever met.  Marine Officers in AOBC/ABOLC raised the standard when it came to a lot of things.  

Chucking this capability out the window is dumb. But heck, it's not just the tanks they're throwing out they're gutting the fires component. 

I guess this means Army Tank Companies better get ready to go to sea.


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## Hacksaw0621 (Apr 3, 2020)

It worked in the gulf war when we needed to attach Army tanks with Marine formations,and it’ll help get more Army tankers deployed and we will get to use upgrades not the M1A1.


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## Gordus (Apr 3, 2020)

Sorry to chime in with my ignorance, but there is mention of "floating" regiments in that pdf Ooh-Rah posted. I presume it would make sense to retain some level of land mobility and mobile firepower for responding in non-Pacific theatres, such as the European, right ?

Otherwise, if the U.S. are serious about ditching all the mentioned USMC assets, there is a "certain" country that would really love to get its hands on some of those A-10s and Abrams.


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## BloodStripe (Apr 3, 2020)

J. said:


> As an active member and very much involved in my community I won’t speak for the official means of how we are “moving” our Marines but, there is a lot more going on at our level than what is in that article.
> 
> There’s a ton of passive ways this is taking place, TIS, TIG, MOS, EAS, Boatspaces, Eligibility for lateral move, what the Army is offering (Rank reduction) etc. that all plays a role in this.
> 
> Some people have more opportunities than others based on the above, some have very few.



Figured that to be the case, but its still better than nothing. Shitty nonetheless.


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## BloodStripe (Apr 3, 2020)

Hacksaw0621 said:


> It worked in the gulf war when we needed to attach Army tanks with Marine formations,and it’ll help get more Army tankers deployed and we will get to use upgrades not the M1A1.



I read an article on that not too long ago. Turns out that tank battalion was being chopped so it was actually logical to plug them in. I'll dig for the article in the morning.

ETA: Don’t Go Too Crazy, Marine Corps - War on the Rocks


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## Board and Seize (Apr 7, 2020)

An audio interview with Commandant Berger on restructuring the force (transcript available for those who prefer to read).  The question of armor briefly comes up.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 5, 2020)

Declawing the Tiger: A Rebuttal of the Decision to Phase Out Marine Tank Battalions

@J.


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## J. (Aug 5, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Declawing the Tiger: A Rebuttal of the Decision to Phase Out Marine Tank Battalions
> 
> @J.



Great article, even just for a historical perspective on the matter. Thanks for tagging me.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 26, 2020)

Am I reading this correctly?  No more MP’s?

Marine Corps Law Enforcement Battalion Preps for Deactivation in Force Reshaping


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## Devildoc (Oct 26, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Am I reading this correctly?  No more MP’s?
> 
> Marine Corps Law Enforcement Battalion Preps for Deactivation in Force Reshaping



That's correct. I thought I posted an article on here with all the units that were getting shit-canned, to include military police, but I might have posted it elsewhere.


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## Kraut783 (Oct 26, 2020)

so, only master at arms for law enforcement....that won't go well....


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## Teufel (Oct 27, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Am I reading this correctly?  No more MP’s?
> 
> Marine Corps Law Enforcement Battalion Preps for Deactivation in Force Reshaping


I think they are going back to a company.


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## AWP (Oct 27, 2020)

Marines and law enforcement go together like chocolate and battery acid.


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## Devildoc (Oct 27, 2020)

I was in the Lejeune area last weekend, and to see the development around 17/New River/210/Holly Ridge/Stone Bay you wouldn't think they are doing anything but growing....


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## AWP (Oct 27, 2020)

Devildoc said:


> I was in the Lejeune area last weekend, and to see the development around 17/New River/210/Holly Ridge/Stone Bay you wouldn't think they are doing anything but growing....



What does that mean in English for the rest of us?


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## Devildoc (Oct 27, 2020)

AWP said:


> What does that mean in English for the rest of us?



It's the area just south of Jacksonville, the south side of the New River which bisects Camp Lejeune and on which sits the best area for both military and civilian development.  It's exploding.  Parts of it used to be "in the country", now it's just one strip mall and housing development after another.  I know part of it is the expansion of MARSOC (bringing all the west coast units to Lejeune).


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 7, 2020)

This whole thing makes me a little sad.  The tankers I knew were some of the proudest and cockiest Marines I ever had the pleasure to interact with.

Corps to release Marine tankers from contracts a year early


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## Devildoc (Dec 7, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> This whole thing makes me a little sad.  The tankers I knew were some of the proudest and cockiest Marines I ever had the pleasure to interact with.
> 
> Corps to release Marine tankers from contracts a year early



I read that, too, wondering if they will elect to have some enlisted/NCOs and officers crossdeck to other jobs, or if it is a blanket "thanks for your service, see ya..."


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 7, 2020)

Devildoc said:


> I read that, too, wondering if they will elect to have some enlisted/NCOs and officers crossdeck to other jobs, or if it is a blanket "thanks for your service, see ya..."


I know some enlisted Marine Tankers have been transferring to the Army.  Not sure how many.


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## Kaldak (Dec 7, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> This whole thing makes me a little sad.  The tankers I knew were some of the proudest and cockiest Marines I ever had the pleasure to interact with.
> 
> Corps to release Marine tankers from contracts a year early



Where's @J. To tell us the details?


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## Gunz (Dec 7, 2020)

So what happens now when we need a tank? Call the Army? Maybe we should keep a couple around, just in case. I've ridden on top of a few and it beats walking. And they're good for morale.


The Horrible Hog, Cuba


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## J. (Dec 7, 2020)

Kaldak said:


> Where's @J. To tell us the details?


Currently on family time duty, but will explain some recent developments soon. Thanks for tagging me.


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## J. (Jan 10, 2021)

So the VEERP is in full swing and to be honest the command has been handling this well, better than I thought. Packages are being approved quickly (most of the time). The intent is that even after the BN closes that out barracks will still be a home to guys waiting on schools, instead of shoving them into a random unit then making them pack up again to leave. It’s going pretty well all things considered.


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## Gunz (Jan 10, 2021)

Here's a piece about the proposed light amphib assault ship that the OP article mentions as something else the Corps wants.

New Light Amphibious Warship Will be the U.S. Marine Corps' Workhorse.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 10, 2021)

Gunz said:


> Here's a piece about the proposed light amphib assault ship that the OP article mentions as something else the Corps wants.
> 
> New Light Amphibious Warship Will be the U.S. Marine Corps' Workhorse.



Thought we already had ships for that role?

Spearhead-class expeditionary fast transport - Wikipedia


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## Gunz (Jan 11, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> Thought we already had ships for that role?
> 
> Spearhead-class expeditionary fast transport - Wikipedia



I don't know, maybe an "expeditionary fast transport" isn't what the Corps considers a "light amphibious assault ship." They're shitcanning tanks, paring down rifle battalions and aviation units.

So we're transitioning from counter-insurgencies to near-peer conflict with the PRC and I'm betting we'll never fight China directly just like we never fought the USSR directly through 40 years of Cold War. Probably end up back in some asymmetric proxy war fighting guys with AKs and RPGs.


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