# Kevin Tillman states to Congress that Pat was murdered



## Looon (Apr 24, 2007)

PUUUUUUUUTHETIC

http://www.cnn.com/



I have no respect for Kevin Tillman. According to him, his plt knew who they were shooting up. Pat was killed on purpose. 

Give me a fucking break.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Apr 24, 2007)

I was attempting to be open minded when Kevin spoke but I was watching it in disgust.


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## Paddlefoot (Apr 24, 2007)

I understand his grief, but that's over the top. For him to say that his brother was intentionally shot, with malice, by his own guys is just garbage. He should know better.

Still, nothing the Army puts out at this point is going to mitigate the circumstances surrounding the action and its aftermath. I don't know if they had been upfront from the beginning if it would have changed his opinion.


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## Paddlefoot (Apr 24, 2007)

I'm watching his testimony right now, did he actually say that he thought Pat was murdered?

I haven't heard him actually use those words yet, or been able to put it into context if he actually did say that.


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## Looon (Apr 24, 2007)

Paddlefoot said:


> I'm watching his testimony right now, did he actually say that he thought Pat was murdered?
> 
> I haven't heard him actually use those words yet, or been able to put it into context if he actually did say that.


He said something along the line of : "They knew they were firing on friendly's, then moved closer and kept firing!"


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## Paddlefoot (Apr 24, 2007)

The same media that ate all this stuff up when the original stories first broke are eating it all up again.

They're like Duke & Duke in Trading Places, they gain an advantage, at least in their own eyes, no matter which way these stories go.

Bunch of vultures.


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## Looon (Apr 24, 2007)

Paddlefoot said:


> The same media that ate all this stuff up when the original stories first broke are eating it all up again.
> 
> They're like Duke & Duke in Trading Places, they gain an advantage, at least in their own eyes, no matter which way these stories go.
> 
> Bunch of vultures.


Yeah, but I give Kevin all of the credit for this one.:2c:


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## Typhoon (Apr 24, 2007)

> I don't know if they had been upfront from the beginning if it would have changed his opinion.


Unfortunately that is the problem. If the Army had been indeed up front about the incident, then it would have most likely ended the story right then and there. Maybe Kevin Tillman would have harbored the same ill feelings about the incident, but we wouldn't have had the media continuing to report adversarial stories about what happened. And of course every time a story gets filed it gives Kevin Tillman a platform. The Army needs to do a much better job of public relations. And the members of the media and public need to better understand the bad things happen in wartime, including friendly fire incidents that result in injuries or death. 

The whole thing is a damn shame.


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## Paddlefoot (Apr 24, 2007)

Eyes said:
			
		

> O' hell no, a Mortimer and Randolph reference....  :doh: :)



It's so true, though.

I didn't think to instruct my parents not to talk to the media when I deployed, but I never thought it would turn into the big deal that it did. 

Long story short, mom talks to a columnist for the local rag, which had grown in circulation, and because we knew this woman (a brother's classmate) from growing up in the same neighborhood, my mother let down her guard. In the end, what was supposed to be a "feel good" human interest story had my mom starting to get emotional, to the point that she is actually quoted as saying "I didn't think it would turn into such a fiasco". 

Bear in mind, the article was written and published in November 1990, well before we knew we would be going to cross the border. I still, to this day, can't believe this columnist submitted it for publication, much less that it got past her editor. Whenever I see that bitch around town, she knows to tread lightly around me. She knows how pissed I was that she interviewed my mother.

A real morale builder for me. I can only imagine what my mother might have said if something had happened to me. I didn't send one of those "To be opened in the event of..." letters. 

Everybody who deploys should have a little heart to heart with their loved ones to spell out exactly how you want them to comport themselves in the event something happens, and guidelines for dealing with the media regardless of that. You don't have to write any letters, I personally think they're a bad omen, but at least make sure they understand exactly how you want things handled, regardless of the how, why, or wheretofores of what happened.

Just my .02, from personal experience. The media can be a life sucking force, making a bad situation worse, regardless of the circumstances surrounding the situation. Like I said, they'll turn on a dime, and make a profit either way.


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## tova (Apr 24, 2007)

While I definitely feel for his brother and his grief, everyone involved in this tragedy is dealing with the loss and the cirumstances involved - instead of pointing fingers, they should be trying to heal, learn and move on.


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## MADMIKE175 (Apr 24, 2007)

I haven't heard or seen the whole Kevin Tillman thing...but based on what I've heard I would say he's forgotten a few things...

Like:



> Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high esprit de corps of my Ranger Regiment.



and



> Energetically will I meet the enemies of my country. I shall defeat them on the field of battle for I am better trained and will fight with all my might. Surrender is not a Ranger word. I will never leave a fallen comrade to fall into the hands of the enemy and* under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country.*


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## pardus (Apr 24, 2007)

A tragedy compounded by lies.
The Army has a lot to answer for in this case.


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## Centermass (Apr 25, 2007)

The Army in part that covered this up has to account and answer for it.

Kevin Tillman, while a grieving brother, was nonetheless a Ranger. 

And Mike hit the nail on the head. Really, nothing more be said. 

What about the rest of his Brothers who are continuously bruised by his repeated remarks? 

Sure, I could understand his frustration and anguish initially. But to take it from that point into one of what appears to clearly be an "agenda" makes me wonder. 

I wonder how Pat would view all of this. 

Probably the same as Sheehan's son.


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## RustyShackleford (Apr 25, 2007)

"*under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country*"

Maybe Tillman's chain of command should have remembered this as well.

I remember the day Col. Bailey took command of 2/75.


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## pardus (Apr 25, 2007)

The really sad thing about this is that it will forever be a stain on the 75th and the Army in general, as well as being much more painful for Pat's family.

I guess Kevin has just run with this, I wonder if he's actually sat down and thought about this as a Ranger, or is he so caught up in it he has tunnel vision?

Does anyone here know, Is he in contact with Rangers/part of Ranger associations etc...? or has he cut all ties with the military? Just be interested to know.  

Judging by his use of words and the way he used certain words it certainly does seem he is on an agenda now, one that doesn't really gel with a brother solely trying to find the truth about his brothers death, he has expanded that somewhat into an anti war/administration crusade.

Sad.


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## Kurt V (Apr 25, 2007)

RustyShackleford said:


> "*under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country*"
> 
> Maybe Tillman's chain of command should have remembered this as well.
> 
> I remember the day Col. Bailey took command of 2/75.



Excellent point!


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## MADMIKE175 (Apr 25, 2007)

RustyShackleford said:


> "*under no circumstances will I ever embarrass my country*"
> 
> Maybe Tillman's chain of command should have remembered this as well.
> 
> I remember the day Col. Bailey took command of 2/75.



I was thinking the same, they have definitely fucked up.

That being said, in war people die sometimes by their own buds doing. The military owes it to the troops to be upfront, I can almost not believe some of the lies they've told...and for what?

Still :



> Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high esprit de corps of my Ranger Regiment.


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## Typhoon (Apr 25, 2007)

> Everybody who deploys should have a little heart to heart with their loved ones to spell out exactly how you want them to comport themselves in the event something happens, and guidelines for dealing with the media regardless of that.


You make an excellent point, Paddlefoot. If I were in charge of the Army, this is one of the things that I would do with the parents. As a coach, even in high school, we have to be concerned with how to deal with the media for both ourselves as coaches and for any of our players that get interviewed post game. We always have a preseason meeting with parents to set up expectations of what their roles are with regards to their children participating in our program, and to make them aware of any procedures that they need to follow.

The same principles apply to the Army, although of course the stakes are much higher for the participants. I would make sure that parents understand what their roles are with their children, how to deal with any media coverage, OPSEC/PERSEC issues, and "what happens if your son/daughter..." Now I have no idea whether any of this is a current procedure, but that is how I believe it should be handled nonetheless... :2c:


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## pardus (Apr 25, 2007)

MADMIKE175 said:


> Still :   Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chosen profession, I will always endeavor to uphold the prestige, honor, and high esprit de corps of my Ranger Regiment.



Do you think maybe he feels he was let down and so therefore he is clear to do what he is doing?
Has he stated something along these lines to explain his actions/words?

I dont know, I'm asking, just thought about that when I read mikes post.


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## Looon (Apr 25, 2007)

pardus762 said:


> Do you think maybe he feels he was let down and so therefore he is clear to do what he is doing?
> Has he stated something along these lines to explain his actions/words?
> 
> I dont know, I'm asking, just thought about that when I read mikes post.


My plt was involved in something similar during OJC. Regardless of what I think about that situation, or how I think it was handled, it doesn't make a fuck. I still don't talk about it to this day.

As far as feeling betrayed, I know what that's like to, but I will never go to the fucking news and whine about how fucked up I think it was. I made a committment to the Regt and the Army not to disclose a fucking thing unless given permission by them. Whether I agree with it or not. I signed on the line to do the secret cool guy shit.

It's part of the package. IMO


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## Looon (Apr 25, 2007)

Ranger Luna said:


> My plt was involved in something similar during OJC. Regardless of what I think about that situation, or how I think it was handled, it doesn't make a fuck. I still don't talk about it to this day.
> 
> As far as feeling betrayed, I know what that's like to, but I will never go to the fucking news and whine about how fucked up I think it was. I made a committment to the Regt and the Army not to disclose a fucking thing unless given permission by them. Whether I agree with it or not. I signed on the line to do the secret cool guy shit.
> 
> It's part of the package. IMO


And that's where the part of this comes in:

*Recognizing that I volunteered as a Ranger, fully knowing the hazards of my chose profession..............*


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## Paddlefoot (Apr 25, 2007)

Centermass said:


> I wonder how Pat would view all of this.



My guess is he would be pretty upset. One of the things that most impressed me after Tillman signed on the line was that he played it so close to the vest. I wonder if his brother Kevin, knowing full well that this was against Pat's wishes, is going ahead anyway. We'll never know.



Typhoon said:


> You make an excellent point, Paddlefoot. If I were in charge of the Army, this is one of the things that I would do with the parents. As a coach, even in high school, we have to be concerned with how to deal with the media for both ourselves as coaches and for any of our players that get interviewed post game. We always have a preseason meeting with parents to set up expectations of what their roles are with regards to their children participating in our program, and to make them aware of any procedures that they need to follow.
> 
> The same principles apply to the Army, although of course the stakes are much higher for the participants. *I would make sure that parents understand what their roles are with their children, how to deal with any media coverage, OPSEC/PERSEC issues*, and "what happens if your son/daughter..." Now I have no idea whether any of this is a current procedure, but that is how I believe it should be handled nonetheless... :2c:



If only it were so easy, Typhoon. Unfortunately, in the Army as in life, everybody at some point sets their own agenda as to how they are going to approach things. Casey Sheehan's mother being the most egregious example of dishonoring her son's sacrifice. There are a lot of ways she could have coped and maybe helped other parents, she instead decided to become a political pawn.

I highlighted part of your post to illustrate the thing that bothered me most concerning that article that was written about me. I was upfront with my family and most friends about what I would be doing in the Army, including that I would be attending language school and learning Arabic. I didn't tell that it was "TS" or anything like that, but I thought they would consider it sensitive and not to be divulged in a public forum. That information was talked about in the article. I also knew that Iraq had very active intelligence operations worldwide, to include operatives here in the US. I would not be surprised at all if that article somehow reached an office in Baghdad while I was deployed. Keeping my language ability a secret had I been taken prisoner, at that juncture, would have been next to impossible.

The Mukhabarat was still attempting to infiltrate agents into the US after the Gulf War. One of them was just convicted in Chicago in a federal trial. He wasn't convicted of espionage, but you can bet any agent is going to feed whatever info his handlers want to know, to include information that might include military ops or personnel.

http://www.iht.com/articles/ap/2007/04/04/america/NA-GEN-US-Iraqi-Trial.php

http://www.suntimes.com/news/metro/343467,latchin041607.article


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## Typhoon (Apr 25, 2007)

> Unfortunately, in the Army as in life, everybody at some point sets their own agenda as to how they are going to approach things.


Oh you are right about that, Paddlefoot. But I believe that if the Army went to parents and said, in effect, "You're an important part of our team: Here's how you can be a partner in our success...", it might cut down on this type of problem occurring. Training in "How to deal with the media" is SOP for players, coaches, and administrators in the NFL. As we live in a media driven society it stands to reason that the military should operate along the same lines...



> The Mukhabarat was still attempting to infiltrate agents into the US after the Gulf War. One of them was just convicted in Chicago in a federal trial. He wasn't convicted of espionage, but you can bet any agent is going to feed whatever info his handlers want to know, to include information that might include military ops or personnel.


This is very interesting on multiple levels. First, the Iraqi foreign intelligence under Saddam wasn't very successful in planting agents abroad, and had, if memory serves me correctly, pretty much given up on the practice for some time. So this was a different turn of events. Second, it is indicative of Saddam's enmity towards the US; and perhaps offers some small bit of justification for our recent military actions against him. Finally, this case also shows that perhaps we ought to think twice before allowing large numbers of Iraqi refugees into this country as has been proposed...


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## pardus (Apr 26, 2007)

Typhoon said:


> Finally, this case also shows that perhaps we ought to think twice before allowing large numbers of Iraqi refugees into this country as has been proposed...



I beleive the USA has a moral obligation to accept large numbers of Iraqi refugees.
The way the USA abandoned the Montanards (for example) in the 70's was/is a disgrace IMO.
I don't think it should be an open door, but every person who works for the USA in Iraq should be giving preferential treatment with regards to coming here as a refugee. :2c: 

(obviously, I beleive the pullout of US forces will be the signing of the death warrant for the Iraqi govt)


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## Typhoon (Apr 26, 2007)

> I beleive the USA has a moral obligation to accept large numbers of Iraqi refugees...The way the USA abandoned the Montanards (for example) in the 70's was/is a disgrace IMO.


Absolutely, Pardus, but we need to be very careful this time around because the stakes are much higher; higher than even when we accepted all of the Cubans from the Mariel boat lift...And we need to not abandon the Iraqi people by not leaving before our work is done there in the first place...

Pardus, I can't remember :eek: Did I show you the picture of my grandfather with the Montagnard tribesmen from 1928? As soon as things quiet down here I will scan it to show the rest of the gang here...


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## pardus (Apr 26, 2007)

Agreed!

I don't think I've seen that photo, I would very much like to though.


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## Paddlefoot (Apr 26, 2007)

Typhoon said:


> First, the Iraqi foreign intelligence under Saddam wasn't very successful in planting agents abroad, and had, if memory serves me correctly, pretty much given up on the practice for some time.



Actually, they had pretty good success at placing people abroad, to include the US, throughout the 80s and beyond. That is one of the reasons I was upset, because I didn't have any control what was being put out publicly from 7000 miles away, and aside from not knowing initially what was put out, I also couldn't be sure who was reading it. 

Early on in OIF, our local rag started going even a bit further, printing pictures of people deployed and biographical info, which I thought was foolish. I didn't hold it against my mother for talking back in '90, I'm pretty sure somebody she worked with at the school district contacted the newspaper (the "feel good" part of the story was about a huge care package of about 6 boxes they sent me and my company). The article went way beyond that, and started getting political and also giving up too much information. 

If anybody from the media ever contacted me to talk about a third party, the very first thing I would do is consider the person in question. Aside from keeping my mouth shut, I would get in touch with that individual to let him/her know that the media was asking questions. Even if that person gave the thumbs up to talk to them, I'm fairly certain I wouldn't. I know how things get taken out of context, in both the print and the broadcast mediums. They are always looking for some quote or pithy comment that stands out, and in my mom's case they got one.

The Tillman situation is troubling on several levels, not the least of which is the Army brass making an effort to not only withhold information from the family, but to concoct a completely different version of events to portray what occured in a different light. This situation had already occured early on with Jessica Lynch, and here they were doing the same thing a few years later. At this point, no matter what the Army says on the matter, the Tillmans are never going to buy whatever story they are selling. And seeing people held accountable at this point, in their eyes, is just further manipulation of a tragic situation.  While I don't agree with what Kevin Tillman said, and I have a feeling Pat would be upset with his testimony, I can see why they appeared in public. That family has, like Pat, avoided the media since he joined the Army and after he was killed. I guess a family can only take so much before they get their side of the story out.


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## Robk (Apr 27, 2007)

long time ago I was in the S1 shop at my first assignment and was tinkering around on the computer there waiting on a friend to get done for the day.  I found a file there with a form letter stating that "Your Son, _______ was killed in the line of duty while on a reconnasaince mission."  I asked what that was all about and was informed that if someone should die that was the standard letter that would be forwarded to the family with the BC's signature.  Seemed messed up all those years ago but I'm wondering if something along these same lines didn't happen in this case.


R


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## CAL (Apr 27, 2007)

Robk said:


> long time ago I was in the S1 shop at my first assignment and was tinkering around on the computer there waiting on a friend to get done for the day.  I found a file there with a form letter stating that "Your Son, _______ was killed in the line of duty while on a reconnasaince mission."  I asked what that was all about and was informed that if someone should die that was the standard letter that would be forwarded to the family with the BC's signature.  Seemed messed up all those years ago but I'm wondering if something along these same lines didn't happen in this case.
> 
> 
> R


Maybe, but the fuckups by the unit/govt go WAY beyond that even if it did take place.


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## Paddlefoot (Apr 28, 2007)

Robk said:


> long time ago I was in the S1 shop at my first assignment and was tinkering around on the computer there waiting on a friend to get done for the day.  I found a file there with a form letter stating that "Your Son, _______ was killed in the line of duty while on a reconnasaince mission."  I asked what that was all about and was informed that if someone should die that was the standard letter that would be forwarded to the family with the BC's signature.  Seemed messed up all those years ago but I'm wondering if something along these same lines didn't happen in this case.
> 
> 
> R



It used to be the norm that a parent, at some point, would receive a personal handwritten letter from the commander of a service member KIA. I don't know if the Army has since codified and regulated how a commander contacts somebody's family member, but at some level the personal touch has been lost. It's all about CYA these days, I'm afraid.


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## AWP (Apr 28, 2007)

When I went through OCS we had to write just such a letter, some of which were read to the class. I can imagine that some of my weaker brothers and sisters crafted a form letter in their units.


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## Paddlefoot (Apr 28, 2007)

Brings to mind the accounts detailed in_ We were Soldiers once_..., where the families were being notified by telegrams being delivered by taxi cab drivers, and the wives would dread the appearance of a taxi showing up in the neighborhoods over those few days.


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