# White Privilege?



## Beagle (Jul 16, 2016)

This kid that seriously been brainwashed.   This kid is doing a serious disservice to the poorest people in America such as the Appalachia area.  Now this kid gonna put down all the poor whites since they have white privilege.  Anyways I call this a hate speech against whites.

I grew up in a poor neighborhood in the middle of the city with all types of immigrants that speak 200+ languages.  Compared to the Appalachia area, my family was doing a lot better.  I thought my family was poor until I met some really poor people that also joined the Army.

Say what you may but this is just my experience

Royce Mann, Age 14, "White Boy Privilege", Slam Poem


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## TLDR20 (Jul 16, 2016)

Do you understand what privilege is in the sense he is talking about it?


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## Beagle (Jul 16, 2016)

Well that privilege isn't specific to white people.  There are privilege Asian, Hispanics and Black kids as well.  

I just think as a whole the bottom 99% have similar opportunities.  This video is just fuel for minorities to say they are handicap starting out in life.

Then again I could be totally be misunderstanding the point of video.


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## pardus (Jul 16, 2016)

He's 14.
STFU you ignorant little asshole!
WTF does he know about anything in life?
I couldn't care less if people are racist, that's your thoughts and your right. I care if you act upon that racism though, that is wrong.
My white family was persecuted for 150 years. Whites where, are and have been slaves for thousands of years.
It's time to stop the bullshit, victim mindset, and "we owe them". How about we just treat everybody like a human being, if you're cunt, we'll treat you like a cunt. If you're a decent person, you'll be treated accordingly.


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## Ranger Psych (Jul 17, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Do you understand what privilege is in the sense he is talking about it?


I actually am interested in hearing you explain this shit, because this here jumped by mexicans, racially slurred daily, denied classes in high school due to racial bias and quotas, poor white kid growing up, "privileged whitey" still does not understand how I had it better just because I sunburn easy.



Please, share this concept of "privilege".


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## racing_kitty (Jul 17, 2016)

What I think that the vast majority of upper middle class, raised by academics/bankers/politicians, privileged white Americans are unable to realize is that there comes a point where the perceived privileges of race are no longer sufficient to offset the detriments of extreme poverty.  It's the intersection that they refuse to acknowledge, because genuinely impoverished Caucasians ruin their rants on privilege, unless they're wearing white robes.  Poor whites aren't supposed to exist, except as anecdotes over a bottle of Rex Goliath (because they couldn't afford a bottle of Stag's Leap).

I stayed out of this argument the last time it came up, and I've already dipped in further than I intended to this time, because while I have a lot of words to say, they're my words, and my experiences, which aren't supposed to exist by the standards of the upper middle class left.


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## AKkeith (Jul 17, 2016)

I think people mistake being "priviledged" because of ones family's status (financially and socially), as being solely "white priviledge." When in fact a family of any race has this precieved priviledge.

I can understand the argument then is that some races find it harder to reach the middle/upper classes. To which there are plenty of cases of people breaking through this barrier though hard work and dedication. It's not easy to do, but I don't think ones race has anything to do with it. Coming from a lower income area with schools that are lacking and extracurricular activities that swing to the side of illegal, is hard to break, but no one gets out on the lone fact that they are white.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 17, 2016)

I don't think it's racially based, if you think rich black, hispanics, Asians, etc, do not stick out their pinky, turn up their noses and act privileged.  Well you simply haven't got out much. I've grew up middle class, but not enough to be in with the rich people and just enough to seem rich to poor people. Had to learn how to fit in everywhere,  no privilege, just learn to fit in.

I think white privilege is bullshit, it ain't a white thing, it's an economic and cultural thing. But mostly it's a lack of exposure to all sides and a lack of understanding that the asshole being a shit head really is just an asshole shit head, and ain't the one you want to know anyway. Hell you can even see it in the Army, the way combat arms looks at support, or the way it was and sometimes still is with officers and enlisted. Those few dumbass people that go around without humility,  run their mouths and make everyone else look like a fuck nugget.

The other side are these over appoligenic "your right white people suck" motherfuckers who buy into the simple minded bullshit that some how by being born a skin color you are either privileged or not. Or that your life is more at risk, or that you are more likely to do X Y Z. It's bullshit, anyone can choose their path in life. Anyone can become the POTUS, anyone can also choose to be a criminal or shit bag, it's human choices.  Nobody is being forced to do shit in the United States,  and if you really, truly,  believe that someone is. You're a damned fool.

If we really want to discuss things rationally,  how about we stop blaming everyone else, take responsibility, and see things for what they actually are (you know actually be rational) instead of trying to twist things to fit our narrow little views on life. Think Christian's are stupid, great you have an opinion. But don't label everyone who is as stupid or Ill informed, don't twist history to fit your own narrow argument. However, if you are a racist, if you hate anyone because of the color of their skin (black, white, brown or yellow) you can kiss my ass, I've got no time for you.

$.02


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## TLDR20 (Jul 17, 2016)

A Guide to White Privilege for White People Who Think They've Never Had Any

Explaining White Privilege to a Broke White Person...

These people say it better than I can.


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## racing_kitty (Jul 17, 2016)

I've read the second one several months ago, and they're the only hope you ever had with identifying with the proles. So my "thanks" for sharing is definitely tempered in sarcasm. Unless you've lived it, don't talk about it like you know it.

Being white didn't get me out of trouble when the person I was riding with was pulled for driving while black (that's how I learned to get comfortable when proned out), and my friends were sure as hell punk rock back when it was called "Hey, faggot!!!!" Quite a few black folks in that community, too; Long before you got all tangled up in privilege.

There's a huge difference between acknowledging the existence of white privilege and existing in that realm where it really doesn't apply to you. Getting pulled over in a beater and proned out because your missing teeth and totaled-yet-still-rolling beater makes you look like you're a mule to the cops despite your skin color is an experience your middle class self will never know. Growing up poor transcends race to a degree; when you've suffered the same struggle you become an honorary nigga (but don't use that word yourself). "White privilege" says I don't get to use that word, but it can damn sure get bestowed.

What you upper middle class, straight people don't perceive is that the lines that intersect at "poor" and "white" don't terminate there. Until you quit patronizing the poor whites, you're not going to get the first lick of support from them, even if they ascend the class ladder.

*edited to correct grammar


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## Ranger Psych (Jul 17, 2016)

Ok, so... um, no. In fact, not just no, Fuck No.

The simple fact that you can't/won't even verbalize what the fuck it means, yet invoke and target it like it's a weapon already makes it smell of bullshit.

There are zero situations where I have been privileged above someone else due to my race.  Due to my gender? Maybe, I was a Ranger after all in the time of swinging dicks versus a mixed gender military occupation.  Due to my physical ability? Most def. Hell, just in my firefighter class we had a student get broke off for the 2nd time with a shoulder injury. Sucked to be her, she was intelligent as hell and knew what to do, but her physique didn't support her intent.

My work history and job hirings due to my military experience are because of just that: APPLICABLE EXPERIENCE. Sorta like, you know, you with your medical background and med school crap. That experience stems from PERSONAL CHOICES, not some ingrained racial magic. 

Physical ability is simple nature in effect. There are some people who physically cannot complete a task. Accomodation for tasks they can do like ADA, addresses that whole issue.

I have had to fight legal discrimination as a prospective employee. Yay, Native Corporations.

Television? Yeah, that's horse shit. Turn on any news, turn on BET, turn on whatever. Everything's multicultural, and if you say it's not, you're full of shit.

National Heritage? Guess what, the windows with the history, regardless of how ugly it is, are being broken instead of simply seen and "never again" uttered. Changing history doesn't make it real, and ignoring it or feeling bad because of history is more stupid than racial bias.

Cop Bias? Umm..... actually, I've only actually been pulled over by a white cop once. Every other time it's been black, asian, or Native's in Alaska.  So there is that. Racial disparity comes with racial bias in a neighborhood. Guess who's going to get pulled over more in the hoods of Atlanta.... it's a simple percentages game, which can also be statistically backed up in the majority of cases. Never mind everything else related to policing such as ongoing investigations and BOLO's etc.

I have no clue how "being able to be in the company of my own race"  applies as a privilege. Everyone I have ever known, regardless of race, has been able to come together as desired.  This in and of itself speaks of racism anyway, as other than a family gathering, what's the fucking point of a racially segregated group gathering? 

Educationally, the schools I went to initially were due to economic virtue from hard fucking work by my family. My grandparents on both sides helped fund my attendance to a multicultural private K thru 3rd grade. The only bias in those schools was performance oriented, and I performed therefore I earned the rewards and events. Anyone of any race that had issues, had personal help plus classmate help to do better. I only experienced bias once I started going to public schools. I was excluded from numerous programs due to my race, flat out, and those that were "multicultural" had a bias engrained anyway.

Sorry I don't fit your narrative, but you should open your eyes a bit more outside what people want you to believe, and look at reality. I am by no means the only one with the same sort of experience in "today's society".


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## TLDR20 (Jul 17, 2016)

So we can come to an agreement that privilege certainly exists. You just say it has nothing at all to do with race? At all? No one has said there is not a class element to it. Class plays an important role in creating and continuing wealth. part of the reason class and race are often equated is because the overwhelming majority of blacks do not find themselves within the middle class. I can also say with absolute certainty that being a white man, helps me in unseen ways. There is nothing to be gained from denying that. Acknowledging it doesn't make me some elitist. It just means I understand that I benefit more from the system than others. 

Obviously the super poor have it bad. Obviously because I grew up with all my teeth I can't begin to understand your struggle:-"


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## Ranger Psych (Jul 17, 2016)

What it all boils down to, is you, and sjw's in general, are helping develop the divides in this nation.

That chick with the bum shoulder? Awesome 2ic for fireground operations and accountability. The head secretary? In a wheelchair. 

Focusing on how everyone, or someone, is better than you is inane. Focusing on strengths, or building them where there aren't many, is a positive means of operating.

Nobody owes anyone jack shit, and everything on this planet will use you to further its own existence.


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## CDG (Jul 17, 2016)

I am so tired of the white privilege bullshit. Being white got me exactly nothing in life. Invisible knapsack? Come the fuck on. Go out and put in the work instead of sitting back and crying about "white privilege".


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## TLDR20 (Jul 17, 2016)

In March my friends went to a casino night at a local museum. My Asian friend and his pregnant white wife were walking in, a group of white men pulled up next to them and yelled white power at them. Peeled out and drove away hollering racial slurs. Shitty right? He has been called a Chink to to his face in the hospital, and had patients try and refuse him. Black female nursing students catch the type of shit that would never happen to me. Ever. 

Do you know how many funny looks my wife and I get? None. We are white, when we walk down the street no one screams racist shit at us. Patients don't request other providers because of my race. I can walk down the street without fear of a stop and frisk, or any other type of police action. Is that a product of my class, sure, but my friend in the above examples grew up wealthier than I did. 

Maybe I notice it because I have friends that point it out to me. They point out the different way I get treated in public. Waiters, bar tenders, even professors treat me differently than some minority students. We don't live in some fucking jungle hierarchy. We live in a time where we can, and I think should try and be able to treat people with equality and fairness. 

None of what I am saying is calling for reparations, I don't think anyone is owed anything apart from an equal chance at success. 

Nothing I am saying seeks at all to divide anyone. Saying it is possible I had it better isn't dividing. I'm not going to quit living to the best of my means and ability because someone else has it bad it better than me. That isn't what this is about. Or at least it shouldn't be.


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## AKkeith (Jul 17, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> In March my friends went to a casino night at a local museum. My Asian friend and his pregnant white wife were walking in, a group of white men pulled up next to them and yelled white power at them. Peeled out and drove away hollering racial slurs. Shitty right?



Guarantee I could go places, walk down the street there as a smaller white dude and hear more than a racial slur thrown at me. More likely bullets. Does that mean they have black priviledge? Am I the opposed now?

There are assholes everywhere. Of every race, creed, color, social status, religion, of every type.


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## AWP (Jul 17, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Explaining White Privilege to a Broke White Person...
> 
> These people say it better than I can.



I could only open this link at work, so that's the basis for this post.

"Bullshit" should be the article's title. I forced myself to read the whole thing even though midway through the woman lost me. Her points about being born into a certain category are partially correct from my perspective, but some of her conclusions are crap. Some of her earlier "I can..." sections are crap. If her article is even an 80% encapsulation of the white privilege argument, you can count me the group who generally calls bullshit.

There ARE racial issues in America, but as she points out and quickly glosses over, there are other categories that can place you at a disadvantage. The system, in some cases for the better and in some for the worse, has the means to "level up" a person's life. I'd bet a dollar more people don't benefit from those opportunities because they don't try or don't apply themselves, but that is a gut feeling; I don't think any studies or hard numbers exist.

Again, there are racial issues in America and I can't reject the argument out of hand. The problem I have is "white privilege" and Black Lives Matter focuses on one group...ONE FREAKING GROUP instead of attempting to correct any wrongs across the board. To me, that speaks to a certain level of racism in the black community.

I'll end this now without expounding upon my views towards race and racism in general. I think the article is junk and indicative of a certain bias within America today and there's no way we can fix our country when people create an additional bias. You can't scream "equality" or "diversity" and then place yourself in a group. Break the chain, break the cycle. Her article and those like it only perpetuate the cycle.

ETA, looking at the article I see she has a hyphen. I hate hyphenated last names.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 17, 2016)

AKkeith said:


> Guarantee I could go places, walk down the street there as a smaller white dude and hear more than a racial slur thrown at me. More likely bullets. Does that mean they have black priviledge? Am I the opposed now?
> 
> There are assholes everywhere. Of every race, creed, color, social status, religion, of every type.



This isn't walking through Compton, or West Baltimore, this is walking through downtown Raleigh on a Saturday night going into a museum.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 17, 2016)

1 - The kid in that video irritates the fuck out of me -  parents who put their kids on show like this, with scripted words, are douchbags. To me no different that the 14 year old girl screaming racist words at a rally.

2 - White Privilege?  I'd like to dismiss it, but I know better. There were times when I was in the Marine Corps where I got better duty, (and a deployment for that matter) over some of the black dudes. It was a bad time on Kinser (1990) for blacks, and I will never forget the formation that was called "for blacks only" so that a white female Marine could try to identify the black Marine she claimed raped her.  That really happened, and all I really recall from it was the formation  being dismissed before the lineup because so many non-black showed up too - "somebody" at some rank must have finally asked , "what the fuck are we doing?"

At the gym I have my own locker in an area tucked way in the back. Often other members will get their shower gear and  leave their lockers unsecure. (So they do not have to take the key to the shower). Occasionally a black dude who has a locker back by me is there when I am. The same guys who ALWAYS leave their shit open when it is just me, ALWAYS lock their lockers and pin their key to their towels when they shower.

I'm sure that there are other examples - but those are the ones that immediately come to mind. It has taken me years to get to the point where I am able to acknowledge this.

To me that's what "White Privilege" means - nothing overtly discriminatory, but something we do without even realizing it. 

This board is turning me into a fucking liberal. :wall:


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## Muppet (Jul 17, 2016)

I was born in Jersey, pop was from Philly. We moved back to Philly in 78. Pop wanted to work for Philly Fire Rescue. No dice. Guess why. We got a place in the projects in the northeast section of Philly. Then, 1980, drugs and shootings got worse. We were able to find an apartment across the street from projects. Raised there. Pop was primary bread winner, driving a bus for local transit company in city, until he was almost killed on the job. We were poor. Pop in hospital for much of my younger years, ma had to work and raise us.

Went to a highschool known for crime since many were bussed from other areas of city. I quickly learned about race relations, learning to "co exist" with other races. I was taught, earn respect, give respect but take no shit from anyone. Still had friends in projects. Grandparents lived in what Philly peeps know as "the badlands", North Philly / Kensignton, where much of the drug trade and homicides occur.

Quickly learned to live with Hispanic population that resided in that area. I went into Army. You all know what I did. Got out and wanted to get hired onto Philly Fire Rescue. Again, no dice. Affirmative action. Been a paramedic in the county just north since 2000. We have the same issues as Philly. We deal with race everyday. Been called a white motherfucker because I have ink and am bald. Again, in this job, I treat people as humans, until issue dictate different.

My Peurto Rican girlfriend (some of you know her) loves me for who I am. A big, bald, loud prejudice man. Prejudice against fucking cunts and these black lives matter cunts and I will not apologize for my race or skin tone, as others should not also. I think "white privilege" is a media made cunt term.

Signed, a white The Irish Jew in Philly. I owe no one nothing and I am owed nothing!

M.


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## policemedic (Jul 17, 2016)

Apropos of nothing whatsoever, my first day in the academy I was told by another recruit from my agency that I would never make it in the agency or understand (the majority of) the population we were going to serve because I was white.  She was black and had grown up in the neighborhoods we'd be working in.  Looking back at the ethnic makeup of my academy class and the agency generally, I'm amazed I got hired.

Philly politics.


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## BloodStripe (Jul 17, 2016)




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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 17, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> View attachment 16111



Damn I forgot how ugly that future criminal is. I  wounder if her husband insist on her face down in a pillow or cowboy (facing away). Than again, he may just have a big paper sack with the "have a nice day" smile face on it. Makes you wonder...


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## TLDR20 (Jul 17, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> View attachment 16111



Great example


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 17, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Great example



And you truly think that the Obama girls won't receive the same treatment? 

Come on dude, you're smarter than this shit. That is the daughter of a politically elite family, that is quickly becoming a political dynasty.  Obama's daughter's will get an elite education, and crazy high paying job right out of the gate, and it won't be because they earned it, it won't be based on the color of their skin. It's because they are the daughters of a former president.


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## Ranger Psych (Jul 17, 2016)

Thats purely positional capability. Race has nothing to do with it, just like your med school, flight lessons, etc etc etc have nothing to do with you being a cracker like me.

If you havent experienced racial bias, you have just been sheltered.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 17, 2016)

Before I say anything, I want to convey how awesome these boards are. The discussions being put forth here are always educational for me. It's been great to learn from the board members experiences and differing views on life.

To be honest, I don't really understand academia's and the media's obsession with race in this country. My understanding was that we are Americans, a trait that transcends race and gender. The way I see it, social media has been efficiently harnessed as a mechanism to pass off bullshit as fact. Like other people here have said, there are some disparities regarding in race in this country, but for the most part it's not systemic. I don't see why people here bitch so much, when there are other parts of the world where systemic racism is an everyday thing practiced by the masses. Here in the USA it racism might practiced by small groups of cunts, but they in no way represent the whole of our culture.

From my perspective as a first generation mutt, I see that social scientists and activists have essentially monetized their cooky ideas. The #activists and social scientists that peddle these studies have their own agendas. As for Peggy McIntosh and her quintessential work regarding privilege, maybe it was something back in the 80's but times have changed. The problem is that social scientists try to pass this dated study off as scripture. If a student calls them out on their bullshit, they'll either bully or cajole them into changing their views or fuck with their grades.

A the end of the day, many of their arguments lack a widespread basis. But somehow they have been able to generate and move large amount of money. Which either goes toward shady individuals spreading hatred disguised as religious speech, like Al Sharpton. Or to organizations that fund biased social science projects. To use an allegory, this movement could be compared to a self stocking ATM that spews radioactive waste. This movement is about money and power. If we are going to stop this from spreading we have to get better at managing this misinformation, or scream louder than the idiots dividing our nation.


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## Etype (Jul 17, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> A Guide to White Privilege for White People Who Think They've Never Had Any
> 
> Explaining White Privilege to a Broke White Person...
> 
> These people say it better than I can.


I only read the second one, the first was way too long.

In summary, the point is that there are more important white people than black, so all white people are privileged?

Utter bullshit.

If this is true, should we execute a certain number of whites, or control their breeding until the populations even out?

Black people oppress themselves by perpetuating myths like white privilege.



TLDR20 said:


> This isn't walking through Compton, or West Baltimore, this is walking through downtown Raleigh on a Saturday night going into a museum.


Walk past the bus station enough times, just a few blocks away from the museum, and I guarantee you'll hear some black folks saying negative things to white people.

You know it, you just have to admit it as the reality it is.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 17, 2016)

Well hell has frozen over and the Vikings are going to win the Superbowl this year because I am in a thread defending the so called "liberal agenda" or "social justice warriors". 

Not even 3 days ago I got into an argument with my wife when she even tried to discuss the concept with me - but this weekend something finally clicked with me and I figured out that white privilege has nothing to do with whites being more overtly racist than blacks, or claiming that blacks cannot be racist.  Because they can, and with some of my black friends, they will freely admit it long before the average white person will.  White privilege has more to do with the advantages we have by not being born black...or hispanic, or whatever.  Go back and read my post at the bottom of the first page of this thread, those are prime examples.  I have been thinking about this thread all day today, and the whole idea of White Privilege. 

Thinking more about it, I can site so many more examples than what I wrote originally on the prior page, to include being pulled over exactly 3 times in my life.  All for legitimate speeding tickets.  The black female manager I hired for one of my 'nicer neighborhood' stores averages once a month or so.  Pick an infraction, any infraction.


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## Etype (Jul 17, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> The black female manager I hired for one of my 'nicer neighborhood' stores averages once a month or so.  Pick an infraction, any infraction.


That may be the weakest argument based on the smallest sample I have ever heard. Ever.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 17, 2016)

Etype said:


> That may be the weakest argument based on the smallest sample I have ever heard. Ever.



I disagree - we travel nearly the same route on a daily basis and she is consistently pulled over. I am not. And it was not a main argument, it is simply a personal example.


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## Theirb123 (Jul 18, 2016)

I don't give a shit what class you are born into. Every single person has an opportunity in this country. Personally, I think "white privilege" is a term the black community uses as an excuse for laziness. I work in the ghetto and see it every single day. If you are born into poverty, break the cycle and get your family out of it. But most of the parents in these poor communities would rather complain how they never had a chance, neglect their roles as leaders of their households and don't spend time with their kids and teach them, since they were too fucking lazy, to bust their ass and do well for themselves and get out of it. They'd rather just teach them to act like thugs and blame whitey for keeping them down.

I love working in this community and being able to try and reach some, but it doesn't work when they're too young because they don't understand and when they're older and can understand, I know the second I walk away the first thing their friends will tell them is "fuck that shit, don't listen to that bitch." Because that makes them feel cool, it feeds that bullshit excuse their shitty parents have taught them their whole life. It's not everyone, but it is the overwhelming majority, and it's far more damaging than any "white privelege" could ever do, real or not.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 18, 2016)

Theirb123 said:


> I don't give a shit what class you are born into. Every single person has an opportunity in this country. Personally, I think "white privilege" is a term the black community uses as an excuse for laziness. I work in the ghetto and see it every single day. If you are born into poverty, break the cycle and get your family out of it. But most of the parents in these poor communities would rather complain how they never had a chance, neglect their roles as leaders of their households and don't spend time with their kids and teach them, since they were too fucking lazy, to bust their ass and do well for themselves and get out of it. They'd rather just teach them to act like thugs and blame whitey for keeping them down.
> 
> I love working in this community and being able to try and reach some, but it doesn't work when they're too young because they don't understand and when they're older and can understand, I know the second I walk away the first thing their friends will tell them is "fuck that shit, don't listen to that bitch." Because that makes them feel cool, it feeds that bullshit excuse their shitty parents have taught them their whole life. It's not everyone, but it is the overwhelming majority, and it's far more damaging than any "white privelege" could ever do, real or not.


Believe it or not, the kids with whom you make a difference will always remember you. I still remember my elementary school DARE representative, Officer Gribbel. He was a jolly guy who would help out at the school fundraisers (we sold pickles) and afterwards collect the pickle juice to take back home. Overheard him talking to the principal, apparently he would pickle eggs in the leftover brine. To this day I never throw pickle juice out, it gets saved for eggs.

In short, even though you may not seem to be getting through. Some of those kids are still going to remember you years down the line. As long as we keep the fire of human decency burning, we'll still have a bright future to look forward to.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 18, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I disagree - we travel nearly the same route on a daily basis and she is consistently pulled over. I am not. And it was not a main argument, it is simply a personal example.



You are talking about profiling and not white privilege  (which again is BS IMHO). Profiling is very real, and sucks, but also is almost impossible to do away with. Due to statistics and the experience of officers who deal with the same issues day in and day out.

Drive into a meth invested trailer park, where you are not normally seen, and see if you get profiled. Do it every day  for a week after work, and see what happens,  from both the people who live there and the LEO's who patrol there. See if you have any "white privilege". I can give example after example,  but my suggestion for deep thought on the issue is apply K.I.S.S. and don't try find smoke where there is no fire.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 18, 2016)

Ranger Psych said:


> Thats purely positional capability. Race has nothing to do with it, just like your med school, flight lessons, etc etc etc have nothing to do with you being a cracker like me.
> 
> If you havent experienced racial bias, you have just been sheltered.



I am nursing school. My flight lessons are paid for by the money we got from a lawsuit from a drug that killed my mom. I'm not rich, or even upper middle class, until February I lived paycheck to paycheck on the Gi bill. Racial Bias? Against me? I haven't. Ever.


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## Sendero (Jul 18, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Racial Bias? Against me? I haven't. Ever.



I'm in the process of moving 2 miles so my kids can attend a good school at great financial sacrifice. Glad to do it. However, I cannot transfer my kids to a school within walking distance but minorities can transfer into any school they want. 

Because my kids are white and "privileged" they cannot. While minority kids in the neighborhood we live in did without issue.


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## 104TN (Jul 18, 2016)

Sendero said:


> I'm in the process of moving 2 miles so my kids can attend a good school at great financial sacrifice. Glad to do it. However, I cannot transfer my kids to a school within walking distance but minorities can transfer into any school they want.
> 
> Because my kids are white and "privileged" they cannot. While minority kids in the neighborhood we live in did without issue.



Your "Privilege" is having to deal with that BS, but being an @sshole if you complain about it.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 18, 2016)

Edit: Nevermind, better ways for me to debate vs venting on the forum.


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## Ronnoc (Jul 18, 2016)

I think it would be fair to acknowledge that white privilege exists, once you accept the fact that it isn't going to apply to every single white person nor to every facet of a white person's life. The idea here is that the advantages of being white out weigh the disadvantages, on average, compared to the advantages arguably not out weighing the disadvantages for minority populations; individuals smarter than I would argue this is due to institutionalized racism.

The main issue I have with a lot of the more out spoken White Privilege advocates, are their proposed remedies to the situation, or overly pushing the "check your privilege" hallmark on to white people. :whatever:


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 18, 2016)

Ronnoc said:


> The main issue I have with a lot of the more out spoken White Privilege advocates, are their proposed remedies to the situation, or overly pushing the "check your privilege" hallmark on to white people. :whatever:



Agree with this 100%


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 18, 2016)

"White privilege"(WP).....OK it's there, and is being spin so fast by the folks who decide what is PC, and the media is all over this. I don't see where this does anyone any good. How about we focus on poverty, black and white. There are things that can be done by everyone to reduce the poverty level in this country. Blathering about WP does what, exactly? What does it fix? What is the criteria for WP? If you are WP, what exactly is expected of the WP? There are Black privilege (BP) too, but that is not mentioned. The timing of Black Lives Matter, and WP are coming up at an interesting time, and the media is eating this up.

My $.002.


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## Ranger Psych (Jul 18, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I am nursing school. My flight lessons are paid for by the money we got from a lawsuit from a drug that killed my mom. I'm not rich, or even upper middle class, until February I lived paycheck to paycheck on the Gi bill. Racial Bias? Against me? I haven't. Ever.


 
Well, you just shot your entire argument in the dick, because we are polar opposites then. You obviously have a blinders style existance if you refuse to admit that there isva large segment of the national population that doesnt match your idea of how things are according to you.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 18, 2016)

Ranger Psych said:


> Well, you just shot your entire argument in the dick, because we are polar opposites then. You obviously have a blinders style existance if you refuse to admit that there isva large segment of the national population that doesnt match your idea of how things are according to you.



I shot my argument? I believe man that you led a life full of discrimination against you.  That you have been held down by the system, that you have thrown off the yoke of the oppressors to get where you were despite the black menace, the white man, and the government. You did it man, congrats. You obviously have zero privilege. So check it out, whenever you hear someone talk about white privilege, or any other kind, smile and know they aren't talking about you. You know it, so who fucking cares. 

I know I do have privilege, that privilege is part being raised in a white middle income house, part being tall straight and relatively good looking, with no disabilities and enough brains to do whatever I put my mind to. There are literally no barriers to my being successful. Not shitty schools, not criminal elements in my neighborhood, not lack of resources. Recognizing that doesn't do anything other than say I recognize it. I put effort into helping other people not born into those situations raise themselves into better ones(via volunteering).  Pretending everyone can pull themselves up by their bootstraps is a fantasy. Some can, as you did. Others need a hand. If admitting I didn't need that hand because I got it from being born lucky, with a system set up to cater to me, then so be it.


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## Rapid (Jul 18, 2016)

So, really, it's about "middle class privilege" and has nothing to do with being white. Sure, it just happens that most middle class people in Western countries are white. But since when is it acceptable, especially by leftist standards, to use that as a justification for labeling something based on an unchangeable human trait, thereby potentially vilifying anyone who belongs to that group? Would it be acceptable to start calling certain crimes "black", just because black people commit most of said crimes?

Yet it's ok to call middle class privilege 'white', just because most of said privilege is held by whites? That there is the hypocrisy of 'progressive' leftist dogma. That's where the self-loathing and 'white guilt' shines right through. And in the case of minorities who rail on about 'white privilege', it's obviously not about self-loathing, but rather just some thinly veiled racism towards white people. The best bit is when you tell them that, they reply that you 'can't be racist against white people' because they define racism as "prejudice + power", so since they say they have no power, clearly they can't be racist! And that is why you very rarely hear them attacking the non-white section of the middle class. It's always an attack on the white, heterosexual male. That's all "white privilege" refers to 99% of the time.


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## DocIllinois (Jul 18, 2016)

According to the Federal Reserve, Asian Americans are about to surpass whites as the wealthiest Americans.

They also do better than whites in school, IQ test, and credit scores.

I bristle with umbrage at the scourge of Asian Privilege.


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## amlove21 (Jul 18, 2016)

CDG said:


> I am so tired of the white privilege bullshit. Being white got me exactly nothing in life. Invisible knapsack? Come the fuck on. Go out and put in the work instead of sitting back and crying about "white privilege".


This thread is quickly spiralling into "these are my personal experiences and at this point I am just going to yell louder than everyone else so that I can be righter more" territory, but---

Since we are friends and I'll be able to yell at you in person later, I'll choose your comment to quote.

"White Privilege", as discussed, is embodied by your statement.

Those claiming that white privilege exist would say, "No of course being white didn't 'get' you anything. You started at zero. Simply because I was a minority I was operating at a social negative balance, and you discounting that out of hand by saying 'white privilege never benefitted me at all' is precisely what the definition of white privilege is. You have no frame of reference for systemic oppression, racism, or any number of real problems minorities have to deal with in our society; regardless of perpetuation of stereotypes, your utter dismissal of our plight by saying 'work harder, be smarter' demonstrates our claim. You are privileged to the point of ignoring our real struggle; it's the modern equivalent of 'let them eat cake'."

There are a lot of examples in the thread- @Etype , I love you man, but people saying negative things about you at a bus stop is a bunch of dickehads being dickheads. The police lining those people up and searching them stop/frisk style solely because of their race is systemic oppression, and you saying "Well, if you're not doing anything illegal, then that shouldn't be an issue" is an example of white privilege. No, I am not saying you would say that, in any way. I am simply using an example and keeping congruity in the example by fabricating your response. 

@racing_kitty , your examples of being involved in the event where your friends were called faggot, or stopped felony style and put in the prone (neither of which are ok, by the way) are yours and they carry weight. I just want to make sure you understand your statement for how I percieve it- _you described incidences which are commonplace in minority reality as remarkable in your reality as a way to discount the idea of white privilege. _Slurs, unnecessary and sometimes unconstitutional stops with rough treatment. See; Los Angeles, 1975-1995. 

White privilege isn't about money or initial station. The poorest white trash looking n'er do well gets an even shot. President Obama's children, in America, are just n****s to someone until proven otherwise. And sometimes, they're just some uppity n****s and they'll never be anything else. 

Personally, I feel some type of way about white privilege as a whole, and to address the original video- fuck that 14 year old kid. He knows exactly shit about the world and shouldn't talk about things he doesn't know about.


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## AKkeith (Jul 18, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> . So check it out, whenever you hear someone talk about white privilege, or any other kind, smile and know they aren't talking about you. You know it, so who fucking cares.



So then calling it white priviledge is racist. It doesn't apply to all white people yet the title stands calling all whites privileged. 

That being the case, could it be something else rather than race then?
Most likely socio-economic status.



amlove21 said:


> White privilege isn't about money or initial station. The poorest white trash looking n'er do well gets an even shot. President Obama's children, in America, are just n****s to someone until proven otherwise. And sometimes, they're just some uppity n****s and they'll never be anything else.



Who says the poorest white person gets a fair shot? I could flip the script on this. 

I'm just a dumb little poor boy cracker wannabe to someone and I didn't get a fair shot until I proved myself. And to some, I always will be one. 


People everywhere of every race, color, creed, religion, whatever hold biases. There's assholes everywhere, race doesn't play a factor in that.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 19, 2016)




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## macNcheese (Jul 19, 2016)

AKkeith said:


> Who says the poorest white person gets a fair shot? I could flip the script on this.
> 
> I'm just a dumb little poor boy cracker wannabe to someone and I didn't get a fair shot until I proved myself. And to some, I always will be one.
> 
> ...


I agree with you. I mean we don't get free college based on our race. Diversifying companies sure as hell don't need more white people. Just my opinion.


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## AKkeith (Jul 19, 2016)

macNcheese said:


> I agree with you. I mean we don't get free college based on our race. Diversifying companies sure as hell don't need more white people. Just my opinion.


One could definitely argue that affirmative action has turned into reverse racism.


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## CDG (Jul 19, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> Your post.



Arguments like the one you make come across as essentially saying that being white means your opinion holds no weight on the matter.  That probably was not your intent, but that's how it reads to me.  I'm white, so I don't have anything to say and the fact that I disagree with the notion that my life would be negatively impacted by not being white means I am walking proof of "white privilege".  The rampant black on black killings and assaults go unaddressed year after year, yet here we sit pointing fingers at "white privilege" as though it's the elephant in the room.


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## Gunz (Jul 19, 2016)

My head hurts.

White Privilege is an anachronism. It _did_ exist. The pendulum in the last half century has swung the other way, with a myriad of social programs, affirmative action, educational and hiring incentives for minorities, childcare options, school lunch programs, welfare, food stamps, K-12, grants for minorities, scholarships, minority fellowships, SMART, school breakfast, SNAP, Section 8 Housing, subsidized low-income phone service, migrant education, Healthy Marriage and Responsible Fatherhood grants, HEADSTART, Child Nutrition (CHIP), Low-income home energy assistance, state supplemental health insurance (SCHIP), Title One grants, Special Programs for the Disadvantaged (TRIO), EvenStart, YouthBuild, etc etc etc about a fucking hundred more not to mention Medicare, Welfare, Social Security Disability... to the tune of 2.3-_trillion_ dollars.

It's all there if you care to take advantage of it.

But maybe it's just easier to sit on your fat ass and claim you've been oppressed by White Privilege. Fuck. That.


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## amlove21 (Jul 19, 2016)

CDG said:


> Arguments like the one you make come across as essentially saying that being white means your opinion holds no weight on the matter.  That probably was not your intent, but that's how it reads to me.  I'm white, so I don't have anything to say and the fact that I disagree with the notion that my life would be negatively impacted by not being white means I am walking proof of "white privilege".  The rampant black on black killings and assaults go unaddressed year after year, yet here we sit pointing fingers at "white privilege" as though it's the elephant in the room.


Of course you have a say. And an opinion, and the right to voice that opinion. You can say any number of things about any number of things, that's all good and that's protected. Just like an opponent saying, "You only think that way because of white privilege" is maybe not a fair thing to say, but it's protected and their opinion. I think you feel like t takes away your power because you're allowing it to. 

The remarkable thing, really, is the droves and droves of white people most of whom pretend or espouse to be super hard cases- military members, whites from the 'other side of the tracks', etc etc- that are getting butthurt about it. All the fucking poo poo faces.

I think there is a systemic and systematic problem with race in America. I've said it before. Literally anyone can say that even though I hold that belief I have benefited from white privilege- my response is the same. And? Labeling me that doesn't silence my opinion, nor does it discount valid points I make. It's the SJW equivalent of being called 'a hater'.

But when your response to such a claim is (essentially) "That doesn't exist you're just not a hard worker or a complainer, I have struggled mightily! My plight is equal to yours!", then you flip the argument from the actual subject at hand to debating semantics and feelings solely based on racial prejudice and historical instances of racist behavior.


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## AWP (Jul 19, 2016)

For discussion, regardless of your stance on WP, would y'all rather be an able-bodied black woman/ man or a paraplegic white male?


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## amlove21 (Jul 19, 2016)

AKkeith said:


> Who says the poorest white person gets a fair shot? I could flip the script on this.
> 
> I'm just a dumb little poor boy cracker wannabe to someone and I didn't get a fair shot until I proved myself. And to some, I always will be one.
> 
> ...


First of all, being called a cracker in any sort of real sense is laughable. The etymology of the word aside, if someone actually called me a cracker, or told me I didn't get a job because I was a cracker, I would literally laugh. Hard. Know why? Because that is an absolutely ludicrous scenario.  

Juxtapose that with a cop telling a black man, "I pulled you over because you're a n****r." I am a betting man. I will bet that somewhere in history, a black dude has been pulled over because he's black and he was not breaking the law at the time. Chris Rock posted 3 stops earlier this year. No tickets, no written warnings. How about this- have you, personally, ever been pulled over or detained by police because you are white? How about more than once? Have you received a sentence much harsher than a black (or Hispanic or Asian or other) person simply because you're white? I assume your knee jerk reaction here- _I don't do any of those things, I know they're illegal. _And that's precisely the point. The argument from the other side of your argument is that black, law abiding citizens are detained, stopped, and punished at a categorically higher rate than whites, per capita. The reason why you, and others here (notably @Ocoka One ) so flippantly answer "Welp, shouldn't break the law and sit around smoking dope all day and cry about oppression, it's not white privilege" is because you've never had to deal with the same situation, even if you insist you surely have.

You can flip the script all you want, but as you do it, you exhibit the behavior of what the SJW/BLM crowd would characterize as "white privilege".

Again- the entire concept is laughable. I dismiss the term 'white privilege' as fast as someone saying 'y u mad bro?' and 'you're just a hater'. For someone to tell me my opinions are based on my 'white privilege' I immediately assume that person has no more valid arguments to make about our discussion.

As soon as you fall into this nonsense about proving how *not* privileged you are, and how truly good that minority has it, you've lost. You're screaming at the ocean at that point.



Freefalling said:


> For discussion, regardless of your stance on WP, would y'all rather be an able-bodied black woman/ man or a paraplegic white male?


And that, really, is a great question. For the gusto, let's hear who would want to be a black woman.



AKkeith said:


> One could definitely argue that* affirmative action has turned into reverse racism*.


PS, there is no such thing as 'reverse racism'. Prejudicial treatment of one race in over another is racist. There is no reverse of that definition.

Seems like semantics, but the implication when you say 'reverse racism' is that whites are the preponderance of force for racist behavior; so when minorities are favored, that's not 'reverse racism', it's racism with a different primary actor. Calling affirmative action 'racist' is ok (if that's your opinion or supported). Calling affirmative action 'reverse racism' implies that the normal action (whites favoring other whites for jobs in this case) is reversed (whites are forced to hire minorities as opposed to whites fulfilling a quota).

That sort of works against your arguments for WP not existing. Whites hiring other whites was such an issue we had to have a government mandated program to hire more minorities. I suppose you could argue the bolded; but it pretty clearly demonstrates how privileged you truly are. JOKE THAT WAS A JOKE LOOK----->


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 19, 2016)

@amlove21 the disagree was for a few things you posted. But if you wouldn't mind explaining this:

"I think there is a systemic and systematic problem with race in America"

I would like to understand how and why you have come to such a conclusion? If you don't mind and when you have the time.


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## AWP (Jul 19, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> And that, really, is a great question. For the gusto, let's hear who would want to be a black woman.



I'd take able-bodied over a wheelchair 90-ish times out of a hundred.


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## BloodStripe (Jul 19, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> @amlove21 the disagree was for a few things you posted. But if you wouldn't mind explaining this:
> 
> "I think there is a systemic and systematic problem with race in America"
> 
> I would like to understand how and why you have come to such a conclusion? If you don't mind and when you have the time.



Look around you.  It's not difficult to see. While I'm not a proponent of the BLM movement, to say that a young African American, specifically a male wearing baggy pants, is never racially profiled is absurd. Or, to say that a white person flying a confederate flag has never been profiled either is also an indication that there is a race issue in this country.


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## Gunz (Jul 19, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> ...The argument from the other side of your argument is that black, law abiding citizens are detained, stopped, and punished at a categorically higher rate than whites, per capita. The reason why you, and others here (notably @Ocoka One ) so flippantly answer "Welp, shouldn't break the law and sit around smoking dope all day and cry about oppression, it's not white privilege" is because you've never had to deal with the same situation...



But you're not talking about WP, you're talking about racism and racial profiling. _Hatred_. That's everywhere, in every culture. They are not the same IMV. My "flippancy" is based on the fact that White Privilege has been offset by social programs, hiring incentives and other benefits--yes, forcibly enacted to counter centuries of WP--and readily available to those who wish to take advantage of them. Some people do. Some people, of _all _races, "work" the system. Of minorities from low-income neighborhoods, _*many *_study hard, don't disrupt the classroom trying to be cool, don't idolize the local crack dealer, don't get involved with gangbangers, work hard and become successful and prosperous.

When I was at the VA trauma rehab facility I struck up a friendship with an African American guy in his late 20's who was doing janitor work. He grew up in the 'hood. He was married, raising a family and studying to be a nurse at a local college. Terrific person. There are millions of black people like him who grew up in urban shitholes who are making something of themselves, not copping an attitude that "Whitey Owes Me," not blaming racism or White Privilege for failing to take responsibility.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 19, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> Look around you.  It's not difficult to see. While I'm not a proponent of the BLM movement, to say that a young African American, specifically a male wearing baggy pants, is never racially profiled is absurd. Or, to say that a white person flying a confederate flag has never been profiled either is also an indication that there is a race issue in this country.



I can agree with that, but I don't view profiling the same as racism.  Profiling is a natural occurrence of nature. We do it with everything to include people. You see a snake on the ground the natural reaction is to view it as a threat. Not all snakes are threats, and the more you under how to ID them the less you see them as such. But that first reaction is the same "threat".

I see racism as more of hating someone, because of that person's ethnic roots, regardless who they are, what they wear etc. But just because my reaction is to be careful and stay highly alert around someone dressed like a thug, doesn't mean I'm racist. I can't tell the amount of times where I've actually had that situation happen, only to talk and find out that the person is good people. But I don't think my reaction is racist,  it's human instinct. The same way a black person would perceive a bunch of rednecks flying the stars and bars.


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## BloodStripe (Jul 19, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I can agree with that, but I don't view profiling the same as racism.  Profiling is a natural occurrence of nature. We do it with everything to include people. You see a snake on the ground the natural reaction is to view it as a threat. Not all snakes are threats, and the more you under how to ID them the less you see them as such. But that first reaction is the same "threat".
> 
> I see racism as more of hating someone, because of that person's ethnic roots, regardless who they are, what they wear etc. But just because my reaction is to be careful and stay highly alert around someone dressed like a thug, doesn't mean I'm racist. I can't tell the amount of times where I've actually had that situation happen, only to talk and find out that the person is good people. But I don't think my reaction is racist,  it's human instinct. The same way a black person would perceive a bunch of rednecks flying the stars and bars.



Profiling someone because of the color of their skin is 1,000% racism. There is no natural reaction to hate someone because they have different color skin pigmentation. That is a taught trait. We profile because we hate or are afraid of someone.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 19, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> Profiling someone because of the color of their skin is 1,000% racism. There is no natural reaction to hate someone because they have different color skin pigmentation. That is a taught trait. We profile because we hate or are afraid of someone.



I totally disagree, and for clarification, I'm not talking skin color, I'm talking the way the person is dressed,  body language,  verbal communication, etc.

We don't profile because of hate, we profile due to past experience,  reading and understanding our environment.


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## BloodStripe (Jul 19, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I totally disagree, and for clarification, I'm not talking skin color, I'm talking the way the person is dressed,  body language,  verbal communication, etc.
> 
> We don't profile because of hate, we profile due to past experience,  reading and understanding our environment.



It's discriminatory.


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## BuckysBadger24 (Jul 19, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> Profiling someone because of the color of their skin is 1,000% racism. There is no natural reaction to hate someone because they have different color skin pigmentation. That is a taught trait. We profile because we hate or are afraid of someone.



So you've never profiled someone?  Never saw black teens in baggy clothes hanging out in front of a gas station or some such, and wondered if they were causing trouble?  Saw a truck driven by a white guy with a Confederate flag and thought he had to be a redneck racist?  For that matter saw any homeless person, and thought they should stop being lazy and try to look for a job rather than begging for change?  

And if you have, you then consider yourself a racist?  Stereotypes exist for many reasons, but _sometimes_ they can end up true.  All it takes is one time of seeing it on the news or elsewhere to make you wonder when you see individuals that fit them.  I'd hardly consider that racism.

To me racism starts when people start acting on those stereotypes.  Whether through violence or shouting pre-assumed slurs, ect.  Not by wondering about it when you drive by.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 19, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> It's discriminatory.



No it's called not being a total dumbass. Everyone profile's, everyone... 

I am married to Mexican American woman, you bet your ass if some loked out hommie looking dudes are walking around my vehicle,  I am profiling them, and so is my wife. Discrimination? Really dude? 

I'm starting to wonder what reality some of you guys are living in.  Here in the real world, if you ain't assessing, taking in and processing information and "profiling" the situation. You're all kinds of wrong and honestly wonder how you lived so long, much less a deployment in the bad lands...unless of course you just aren't being honest with yourself. 

And yes I've sat through enough EO classes, and bullshit profiling awareness courses to make my head spin. That shit ain't reality,  it's clown shoes made up bullshit, by dumbass people with zero real world life experiences,  trying to make a name for themselves in an academic setting. Just like "white privilege" and just like them telling people that blacks can't be racist, or that cops killing black is an epedemic, when more whites are killed by cops, and most blacks are killed by other blacks, etc, etc, etc. 

But anyway, if you're done emplying I am a discriminating racist, I will agree to disagree with you and step away until this afternoon.


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## Salt USMC (Jul 19, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> Look around you.  It's not difficult to see. While I'm not a proponent of the BLM movement, to say that a young African American, specifically a male wearing baggy pants, is never racially profiled is absurd. Or, to say that a white person flying a confederate flag has never been profiled either is also an indication that there is a race issue in this country.


That's the problem though; it's not just poor black men being profiled.  Senator Tim Scott, one of only two black senators, gave a nearly 20 minute speech about this last week: 
WATCH: Black GOP Senator Says He's Been Stopped By Police 7 Times In A Year


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 19, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> ... That shit ain't reality, it's clown shoes made up bullshit, by dumbass people with zero real world life experiences, trying to make a name for themselves in an academic setting. Just like "white privilege"...


To be honest, I think you're dead on. From what I'm seeing, many of the arguments being made about privilege and bias are being written by people that live within the walls of academia. Most of them come from backgrounds that are afforded them relative safety while growing up. It's good that people can have such a nice upbringing, but I just think that they lack credibility. Especially when they start publishing reports on topics that they're out of touch with.

What's surreal, is that these reports gain widespread acceptance and are touted as fact. Whats worse is that they become fodder for good-idea fairies, and people who want to push an agenda that will suit their needs. The academics that hammer sensationalism, are essentially turning the Social Sciences into new age shenanigans.

We might as well get used to it. Shamanism is back, baby! Now where did I put that eye 0f newt...



Deathy McDeath said:


> That's the problem though; it's not just poor black men being profiled.  Senator Tim Scott, one of only two black senators, gave a nearly 20 minute speech about this last week:
> WATCH: Black GOP Senator Says He's Been Stopped By Police 7 Times In A Year


Really?:wall: 





> "Was I speeding sometimes? Sure. But the vast majority of the time I was pulled over for driving a new car in the wrong neighborhood or something else just as trivial."


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## Loki (Jul 19, 2016)

Profiling is a legitimate mechanism / tool of security and crime prevention. Also used widely for counter-terrorism. It is used the world over for probable cause coupled with clearly identified indicators to stop and question.  "Predictive profiling" assists in the interception of those meeting certain objective criteria, that possess high risk behavior matching specific indicators. Racial profiling and the legitimate use of Predictive profiling are entirely different.  This is used widely in airline, maritime and general security applications.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 19, 2016)

@R.Caerbannog i disagreed because you just said a bunch of stuff that is not only probably not true, but totally lacking in verifiability. Those academics do things called research. Research very often puts people very much in the real world. Many people who choose to study things like sociology in depth have a wide range of experience. Let's take a random college, say University of South Florida, and look at the staff of the Sociology department. 
USF :: Department of Sociology

These people are fucking experts. They study this day and night. They have forgotten more about the shit we are talking about than we know. That is one school. Lumping in academics as out of touch, or not understanding the real world reeks of anti-intellectualism.


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## Loki (Jul 19, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> Profiling someone because of the color of their skin is 1,000% racism. There is no natural reaction to hate someone because they have different color skin pigmentation. That is a taught trait. We profile because we hate or are afraid of someone.



Hate and fear are completely different.  Not hating on anyone...  After working in South LA for six years there are some trends to be aware of and take in consideration for your personal safety. If I see a group of people gathered on a corner in the middle of the night, they begin to approach my vehicle at a stop light, I'm getting concerned, will have a gun in my lap and will probably blow the light. BTDT outside of Nickerson Gardens more than once, as well as Jordan Downs. I see a sidewalk filled with a group of young men hanging out on the street corner in the hood, I'm not walking through them or even on the same side of the road, if I can help it. And my black friends feel exactly the same...sorry, fact! If I'm in Burbank or West Hollywood and have the same experiences I will react differently.  Work a stake out in Oakland or Richmond, see how you respond.  If I'm in a white neighborhood and a bunch of scooter trash is hangin out or meth heads I'm feeling exactly the same. Yea, I profile all the time, I see some tatted up peckerwood white trash skulking around, looking like he's capering he's got my attention. Skin color is a side bar issue, behavior profiling coupled with the location and the situation as well as patterns of attack and encounter are the determining factors. Crimes statics and violent behavioral patterns are facts...avoiding the people who meet the profile of a given perpetrator in a specific area are probably a smart thing.  If you disagree fine, but I guarantee you aren't walking down the sidewalk thinking everyone is cool and just wants a big hug.


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## amlove21 (Jul 19, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> @amlove21 the disagree was for a few things you posted. But if you wouldn't mind explaining this:
> 
> "I think there is a systemic and systematic problem with race in America"
> 
> I would like to understand how and why you have come to such a conclusion? If you don't mind and when you have the time.


Yeah no issues. It's a stance I've laid out a couple times before- I wanna say on one of the police brutality threads. 

In my opinion, America has a serious problem with race. Institutional, pronounced racism. We made great leaps for the black community in the 60's, but blacks are discriminated against in real and frequent ways today. There are a million examples out there, but AIRBNB's latest kerfluffle is a pretty good snapshot- racism is alive and well in this country, and will be for some time to come, I think.

It takes but a quick look/search to find that black and latino men are sentenced much more harshly than what this article calls "similarly situated white men". It's not in a county, province, or city. It's nationwide. 

We are talking about WP because the BLM movement finally found a (albeit ham handed) way to describe that thing when whites say things like, "Don't do bad things you wont get arrested; don't get caught doing bad things and you won't be sentenced so harshly; go to school and get a job and stop whining about being oppressed." The real issue is that I believe that our society and judicial system systemically (the entire system) treats minorities unfairly when compared to 'similarly situated white people'. 

The two examples I listed here are good examples of why I think the way I do. 

We have a part (I won't use words like 'large' or significant) of our society that are profoundly racist, and we have a system that time and time again dishes out much harsher penalties to minority groups even when compared to their non-minority counterparts. 

I think that sums it up enough to answer your question, I don't wanna over-explain.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 19, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> @R.Caerbannog i disagreed because you just said a bunch of stuff that is not only probably not true, but totally lacking in verifiability. Those academics do things called research. Research very often puts people very much in the real world. Many people who choose to study things like sociology in depth have a wide range of experience. Let's take a random college, say University of South Florida, and look at the staff of the Sociology department.
> USF :: Department of Sociology
> 
> These people are fucking experts. They study this day and night. They have forgotten more about the shit we are talking about than we know. That is one school. Lumping in academics as out of touch, or not understanding the real world reeks of anti-intellectualism.



It's been my personal experience through conversation and countless social interactions. That many of the specialized academics live in a bubble of what they study. That's not to say all, but many of them. I  am not anti academic research, but my issue is the political and social engineering views that start certain studies, that influence studies. 

Example: I can make a study on X, poll targeted area's,with specific questioning that will give me the desired results.  Is it research? Sure, now I get my results published in a media outlet and people are qouting it until it is rather debunked (normally quietly) or until it becomes so popular it taken as factual data.

There are more than a few cases of this, one that comes to mind was a few years back when it was stated that 3 out of 4 women in college are sexually assaulted. It was literally a tainted bogus study, that became the rave for several years, but quietly died when proven false.

Now there are plenty of legitimate studies conducted throughout the academic world,  that do give a glimpse into social issues,  but they don't generally fit the liberal naritive and don't get the media coverage they should. Like the recent study by Harvard that showed no racial biased towards blacks in police involved shooting, however,  did observe racial biased in use of force and less lethal force.



amlove21 said:


> Yeah no issues. It's a stance I've laid out a couple times before- I wanna say on one of the police brutality threads.
> 
> In my opinion, America has a serious problem with race. Institutional, pronounced racism. We made great leaps for the black community in the 60's, but blacks are discriminated against in real and frequent ways today. There are a million examples out there, but AIRBNB's latest kerfluffle is a pretty good snapshot- racism is alive and well in this country, and will be for some time to come, I think.
> 
> ...


I agree with regards to the justice system.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 19, 2016)

R.Caerbannog said:


> To be honest, I think you're dead on. From what I'm seeing, many of the arguments being made about privilege and bias are being written by people that live within the walls of academia. Most of them come from backgrounds that are afforded them relative safety while growing up. It's good that people can have such a nice upbringing, but I just think that they lack credibility. Especially when they start publishing reports on topics that they're out of touch with.
> 
> What's surreal, is that these reports gain widespread acceptance and are touted as fact. Whats worse is that they become fodder for good-idea fairies, and people who want to push an agenda that will suit their needs. The academics that hammer sensationalism, are essentially turning the Social Sciences into new age shenanigans.
> 
> We might as well get used to it. Shamanism is back, baby! Now where did I put that eye 0f newt...



Do not confuse academic research, and what they have to say, with what the media is shaping, spinning, and presenting. They are not the same.

To add to what @TLDR20 has said:

It is unfair to think of those in academia as having come from the "upper crust" of our society; or being the upper crust. It is true that some have come from pedigreed families, and are carrying on the family tradition. Others have come from the working middle class. Some have come from a family of six or seven kids growing up in a one bedroom apartment in NYC, Philly, San Antonio, South Boston and.....well just pick you favorite big city. That is the beauty of the academic world, they really do not prejudge, but look at the body of work each one brings forth for consideration. They all work to contribute to the knowledge base that undergrad, and graduate students learn from.  The academic world may appear sheltered and removed from society, but they look at each others work with a critical eye. They do not look at a body of work that is presented by the media. What the media presents is another story all together; isn't that true?

Know that you can pick and choose what you research, to prove a point. It is a narrow study that brings out the answer you are looking for. Often times media reports come from the "Narrow Research" to drive home a point the editorial staff wants. That is then presented to the viewing/ reading public for their consumption. What we are feeling is not a failing of the academic world, but more a failing of the profession of Journalism. Nobody runs to the academic world to check if what is being reported is accurate. Instead, you channel surf over to CNN, or Fox to see the other side of the story. It is not the academic world that is failing us, just the lack of pure journalism.


My $.02, and back in to my wee cave in The Valley.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 19, 2016)

Yeah. Real research is not quoted in the media then debunked. It is peer reviewed, edited, and then published. After that the medi may publish their view of it.


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## Salt USMC (Jul 19, 2016)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Really?:wall:


Did you listen to his speech?  It wasn't just in his car



> The South Carolina senator spoke of multiple instances in which he felt he had been unfairly targeted by police because of the color of his skin, including one encounter with the U.S. Capitol Police. Scott, who is black, said that as recently as last year he was stopped by a Capitol Police officer who did not recognize him as a senator even though he was wearing his member’s pin.
> 
> “The pin, I know. You, I don’t,” Scott recalled the officer saying with “a little attitude.” Scott said the tone of the encounter suggested that the officer believed he was impersonating a senator.
> 
> The South Carolina Republican said he received a call later that evening from a Capitol Police supervisor apologizing for the officer’s behavior. *It was the third such call he has received from either the chief of the Capitol Police or a supervisor since joining the Senate in 2013*, he said.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 19, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah. Real research is not quoted in the media then debunked. It is peer reviewed, edited, and then published. After that the medi may publish their view of it.



Dude there are countless studies being debunked after publishing. In medical,  science, social studies, etc.  It literally happens a lot.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 19, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Dude there are countless studies being debunked after publishing. In medical,  science, social studies, etc.  It literally happens a lot.



Yeah by better or newer research. Saying the media debunks it is not at all true. Saying a poll debunks something is also BS. Other research rarely says the exact opposite of research. When something is debunked it is a huge deal. Like Andrew Wakefield, who originally published a link on autism and vaccines. That was an enormous deal. Not just some footnote in a magazine.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 19, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah by better or newer research. Saying the media debunks it is not at all true. Saying a poll debunks something is also BS. Other research rarely says the exact opposite of research. When something is debunked it is a huge deal. Like Andrew Wakefield, who originally published a link on autism and vaccines. That was an enormous deal. Not just some footnote in a magazine.



I never said the media debunks anything.  Also when conducting studies of social issues, it is primarily done through polling. I will agree in the medical and science world's, it's a big deal. In the social realm, "things" like white privilege,  when proven to be false are not made to be as big of a deal. And often are cited in political arenas by politicians and political talking heads,  even after they have been clearly proven false.

Let's take the a false narrative like concealed carry would raise the amount of homicides in America. That was the talking points in the mid 90's for the liberal agenda.  20 years later, there has been countless studies showing that homicides decreased after concealed carry became law. Some that were not well researched that tried to push the old agenda but due to CDC and the FBI Keeping close study, the naritive was debunked through unbiased research over a long period of time. However, when ever the issue is brought up,  these findings are never discussed,  but others are used, like homicides in the UK vs the US per capita, etc.

My overall point, many of the socially based studies on a wide range of issues,  are very narrow and do not reflect actually social norms. What might be so in the area surrounding the a study at Harvard,  is probably not so in the area surrounding Texas A&M. There is no one mold, hints the difference in cultural and social norms across our country...but I digress.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 19, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> @R.Caerbannog i disagreed because you just said a bunch of stuff that is not only probably not true, but totally lacking in verifiability. Those academics do things called research. Research very often puts people very much in the real world. Many people who choose to study things like sociology in depth have a wide range of experience. Let's take a random college, say University of South Florida, and look at the staff of the Sociology department.
> USF :: Department of Sociology
> 
> These people are fucking experts. They study this day and night. They have forgotten more about the shit we are talking about than we know. That is one school. Lumping in academics as out of touch, or not understanding the real world reeks of anti-intellectualism.


I'm probably wrong, but I disagree.  Just because one goes out to do research, doesn't give one an all encompassing view of the picture/people you are studying. Not to be disingenuous, but the majority of people doing research aren't actually living with their subjects and experiencing everyday life with them.

In other words, they may pound the pavements. But at the end of the day, they'll go back to their communities or to the halls of academia. That's not to say that there aren't a handful of researchers that still practice participant observation. I just find it hard to believe that there isn't a disconnect, between the researchers and their subjects.

As for certain people being experts, you are right and I cannot refute that. I just can't discount the human factor that plays into the research/presentation of the data. Earlier this year, there was a big stink about how scientists were messing with their data. It came up on the John Oliver show. Where scientists would use p-hacking to change the parameters of their data, until something significant came up.  Not only that. Of the data published, how many replication studies are done to make sure that the study is indeed valid?
P-hacking | Sociological Science
Robert Kurzban: P-Hacking and the Replication Crisis (HeadCon '13 Part IV) | Edge.org

Just because someone is an expert, it does not make them infallible. Or make their work above reproach.

Sorry if I ruffled any feathers.





John Olivers take on p-hacking and replication

I know it's long, but he explains some of the topics and scientists motivations better than I.


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## macNcheese (Jul 20, 2016)

The data collected for this subject is kind of tricky though. It's based on convictions when it comes to race vs race data. So if you say that white people are more privileged then obviously they can afford a good lawyer and have a better chance of getting away with it and that removes them from the data.  

You're innocent until proven guilty so you can't just say that if they were arrested for a crime that they are guilty. So you can't use that as data. It has to be definite. I would say the data that they study is more of a factor than their personal views. 



R.Caerbannog said:


> I'm probably wrong, but I disagree.  Just because one goes out to do research, doesn't give one an all encompassing view of the picture/people you are studying. Not to be disingenuous, but the majority of people doing research aren't actually living with their subjects and experiencing everyday life with them.
> 
> In other words, they may pound the pavements. But at the end of the day, they'll go back to their communities or to the halls of academia. That's not to say that there aren't a handful of researchers that still practice participant observation. I just find it hard to believe that there isn't a disconnect, between the researchers and their subjects.
> 
> ...


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## TLDR20 (Jul 20, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I never said the media debunks anything.  Also when conducting studies of social issues, it is primarily done through polling. I will agree in the medical and science world's, it's a big deal. In the social realm, "things" like white privilege,  when proven to be false are not made to be as big of a deal. And often are cited in political arenas by politicians and political talking heads,  even after they have been clearly proven false.
> 
> Let's take the a false narrative like concealed carry would raise the amount of homicides in America. That was the talking points in the mid 90's for the liberal agenda.  20 years later, there has been countless studies showing that homicides decreased after concealed carry became law. Some that were not well researched that tried to push the old agenda but due to CDC and the FBI Keeping close study, the naritive was debunked through unbiased research over a long period of time. However, when ever the issue is brought up,  these findings are never discussed,  but others are used, like homicides in the UK vs the US per capita, etc.
> 
> My overall point, many of the socially based studies on a wide range of issues,  are very narrow and do not reflect actually social norms. What might be so in the area surrounding the a study at Harvard,  is probably not so in the area surrounding Texas A&M. There is no one mold, hints the difference in cultural and social norms across our country...but I digress.



So the CDC didn't study gun crime from 1996-2012. They are still barred by Congress from doing so. They have released a single paper about a single city in the last 20+ years.


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## BloodStripe (Jul 20, 2016)

Loki said:


> Profiling is a legitimate mechanism / tool of security and crime prevention. Also used widely for counter-terrorism. It is used the world over for probable cause coupled with clearly identified indicators to stop and question.  "Predictive profiling" assists in the interception of those meeting certain objective criteria, that possess high risk behavior matching specific indicators. Racial profiling and the legitimate use of Predictive profiling are entirely different.  This is used widely in airline, maritime and general security applications.



I was talking about racial profiling where I was just saying profiling.  I thought that was a given,  but I guess not. 

Fact: 13% of African Americans were pulled over in 2011, compared to 10% of white Americans.  Further, a lower percentage of white drivers stopped by police in 2011 were searched (2%) than black (6%) or Hispanic (7%) drivers. 

Of these, over 50% of white drivers were stopped for speeding.  Care to guess without looking it what percentage of blacks were stopped for speeding?  I'll give you a hint, it's a double digit difference.  Where I'm going with this is, the police are using other reasons to pull over more blacks than whites (percentage wise) and then searching them at a higher rate. Why is that do you think?


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## Florida173 (Jul 20, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> Fact: 13% of African Americans were pulled over in 2011, compared to 10% of white Americans. Further, a lower percentage of white drivers stopped by police in 2011 were searched (2%) than black (6%) or Hispanic (7%) drivers.



What do you think that tells you? Because it hasn't been adjusted for population. I deal with this all the time in my job to make the numbers say what ever they need to say.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 20, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> So the CDC didn't study gun crime from 1996-2012. They are still barred by Congress from doing so. They have released a single paper about a single city in the last 20+ years.



Hmmm I've read several reports from the CDC that tracked homicides by city and cause (i.e. X number of homicides caused by X Y Z reason's). It wasn't gun specific,  but believe they did list cause of homicide (i.e. blunt force, stab wound, gun fire, etc) could be wrong,  I'll have to check that.

Funny,out of everything I wrote that, that was what you chose to respond to vs what we were actually discussing. 



Florida173 said:


> What do you think that tells you? Because it hasn't been adjusted for population. I deal with this all the time in my job to make the numbers say what ever they need to say.



I'm sure it will be spun by some one, but blacks make up 13% of the population,  however acount for 52% of the "NATIONAL" crimes being committed. That's not talking traffic stops, we're talking robberies, rapes, assaults, homicides, etc.

There is a reason why blacks are being profiled, and it's because they are committing over half the national crimes and make up barley overy a tenth of our national population. It's completely lopsided and that is what the American police officer see every single day.  That's not racism,  that is just the cold hard facts.


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## Gunz (Jul 20, 2016)

Leftist Liberal Commie Democrats (see? I'm profiling ), will tell you that the number of minorities in our prisons far outnumber whites, not because they are guilty of anything, but because the police and the courts are racist. If you ask the prisoners themselves (and I've been to a few prisons, _not_ as a resident), they have all been framed.  If you ask LEOs who work in cities where most of their 9-1-1 calls originate from between sundown and sunup, they will probably tell you the 'hood. They are not arbitrarily going into the 'hood to harass and arrest black people, they are being_ called _there by residents and responding to situations.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 20, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Hmmm I've read several reports from the CDC that tracked homicides by city and cause (i.e. X number of homicides caused by X Y Z reason's). It wasn't gun specific,  but believe they did list cause of homicide (i.e. blunt force, stab wound, gun fire, etc) could be wrong,  I'll have to check that.
> 
> Funny,out of everything I wrote that, that was what you chose to respond to vs what we were actually discussing.



That was 1/3 of your post.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 20, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> That was 1/3 of your post.



Set as an example, and not necessarily specific to the topic. Just an example. 

So do you believe that white people or at least the majority of white people are racist?  Do you believe that white people, regardless of economic class,  are treated better than blacks? Do you believe that only white people have social privileges and that black or hispanics, or whoever can not be privileged over a white person, in their particular community? 

If I went to a McDonald's store in a black community to apply for a job. Would I be hired over a black person because I am white? If the situation was flipped, would the black person get the job over the white?

I get that this is a touchy subject for many. But I'm am pretty tired of being told I'm privileged or that I'm a racist or any other stupid bullshit that isn't true. I don't particularly align my self with any politics,  I prefer to stay independent so that I can call bullshit where I see it. The political correctness is keeping a lot of people from speaking up and calling bullshit. On things like black people can't be racist,  that white people are privileged,  etc.

The black community knows thats bullshit. And so you know there is a major difference between the gangsta thugs who rob, rape, murder, and the rest of the black community.  The black community doesn't like those thugs either. But they are afraid of reprisal. It's been that way for decades.

Blaming white people, the police, the fairy fucking godmother, won't change the truth, it won't fix the problem,  and it's nothing more than bread and circus, while our country gets more and more divided,  more and more in debt, and more and more corrupt.


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## Etype (Jul 20, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> ...


Blacks commit crimes at a proportionately higher rate than whites- that's not white privilege, that's self-imposed black disadvantage.


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## Loki (Jul 20, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> I was talking about racial profiling where I was just saying profiling.  I thought that was a given,  but I guess not. Fact: 13% of African Americans were pulled over in 2011, compared to 10% of white Americans.  Further, a lower percentage of white drivers stopped by police in 2011 were searched (2%) than black (6%) or Hispanic (7%) drivers. Of these, over 50% of white drivers were stopped for speeding.  Care to guess without looking it what percentage of blacks were stopped for speeding?  I'll give you a hint, it's a double digit difference.  Where I'm going with this is, the police are using other reasons to pull over more blacks than whites (percentage wise) and then searching them at a higher rate. Why is that do you think?



There's merit to your statements, and on it's face there's a problem, there seems to be a disparity in treatment, with regard to routine contacts with Police. Without looking further in depth and doing an exhaustive analysis or cross referencing the factors. The DOJ validates most of your numbers.   
Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Traffic Stops

"The color of crime" the stats in this report / anylsis editorial were take directly from the DOJ.
The Color of Crime 

"Fact check do black Americans commit more crime"
FactCheck: do black Americans commit more crime?

"Race and crime in the United States"
Race and crime in the United States - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

"Who kills police"
Are black or white offenders more likely to kill police?

"US crime in black and white"
Us Crime in Black & White - Infogram, charts & infographics

Depending on the source but generally: Blacks make up approx 12% of the population and account for over 50% of the criminal homicide and over 78% of their victims are other blacks. Whites are the most preferred victim pool by all offenders across the spectrum. There are many graphs and such available,  open source.  

My assertion is the black community has a violence problem, Police are more likely to target black community members in specific districts / areas based on the likelihood of  criminal conduct in those areas.  As well as a proliferation of violence and criminal conduct. I would like to see maps indicating the areas / regions of this heavy traffic enforcement and see how they overlap with known high crime areas.

In one unnamed city in California, over the last 6 years there has been an influx of people from the South LA area. This city was primarily white with a small black and hispanic representation, middle class and rural.  The recent implants are being moved out of the ghettos to this community, offered free housing to "improve their lives".  In this period of time over 7000 people have been moved into the city limits.  Crime, drugs, violence and homicide have skyrocketed. The previous white, black and hispanic population is moving out, property value has plunged people are basically giving their homes away to get out.  In this small city we know of over 1250 outstanding active warrants for arrest. Occasionally the worst offenders, known violent offenders are targeted and added to a bi-monthly / monthly hit list. This is coordinated with the CA-DOJ and multiple agencies for sweeps. If you drive in this city you will be stopped, you speed, have a tail light out and make any traffic violation you will be stopped. I have a badge and have been stopped three times. I was written a traffic ticket for speeding once by the CHP (Triple A with a gun) ;).  You hang out on the corner in day time with a bag in your hand, or at night or involved in suspicious activity you will be stopped and questioned. The overwhelming population in this area is now black and a large criminal element is residing therein.

Do you think this is racial profiling?


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## amlove21 (Jul 20, 2016)

Etype said:


> Blacks commit crimes at a proportionately higher rate than whites- that's not white privilege, that's self-imposed black disadvantage.


They are more likely to be involved in violent crimes, and black males were involved in 52% of murders while only making up 13% of the population from 2008-2013 (multiple studies, easily google-able). 

Your statement is bothersome though, for this reason- so, let's say blacks _do _actually 'commit crimes at a higher rate than whites'. 
Is it fair for our judicial system to discriminate against, target, and ultimately punish blacks with prison sentences 20% longer than their white counterparts?

For the sake of discussion- 2 carbon copy humans. Same history. Same crime. Same backstory. Same judge and jury. One human is black, the other is white. The black human gets punished much more harshly than the white human _simply because that human is black_. Isn't that the definition of systematic racism?

Question 1- What would your advice be to that black guy that just got 12.5 years when his white twin got 10 years for the same crime? "Shouldn't have been black?" 

Question 2- Would you like to be a black man in America? Do you feel that, regardless of the fact that LOTS and lots of white people feel the same way that you do, you would be able to live an unmolested, fair and just life in America with no fear of racism impacting you?


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## Etype (Jul 20, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> They are more likely to be involved in violent crimes, and black males were involved in 52% of murders while only making up 13% of the population from 2008-2013 (multiple studies, easily google-able).
> 
> Your statement is bothersome though, for this reason- so, let's say blacks _do _actually 'commit crimes at a higher rate than whites'.
> Is it fair for our judicial system to discriminate against, target, and ultimately punish blacks with prison sentences 20% longer than their white counterparts?
> ...


That seems like a narrow scope of information to form an opinion off of.  Since they commit crimes at a higher rate, there's a greater chance they have prior convictions.

No, I wouldn't want to be a black person, just like you wouldn't; just like most blacks wouldn't want to be white. That's a ridiculous question.


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## AKkeith (Jul 21, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> They are more likely to be involved in violent crimes, and black males were involved in 52% of murders while only making up 13% of the population from 2008-2013 (multiple studies, easily google-able).
> 
> Your statement is bothersome though, for this reason- so, let's say blacks _do _actually 'commit crimes at a higher rate than whites'.
> Is it fair for our judicial system to discriminate against, target, and ultimately punish blacks with prison sentences 20% longer than their white counterparts?
> ...



I agree with @Etype.

Finding a carbon copy person with identical history but with a different skin color is next to impossible.
I think this is what skews the "black person gets worse punishment for same crime" data. They aren't the same people. They don't have the same history. There's too many factors to throw that blanket statement over an entire court case.


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## Florida173 (Jul 21, 2016)

Etype said:


> That seems like a narrow scope of information to form an opinion off of.  Since they commit crimes at a higher rate, there's a greater chance they have prior convictions.
> 
> No, I wouldn't want to be a black person, just like you wouldn't; just like most blacks wouldn't want to be white. That's a ridiculous question.





> Five years after release from prison, black offenders had the highest recidivism rate (81 percent), compared to Hispanic (75 percent) and white (73 percent) offenders.


Recidivism of Prisoners Released in 30 States in 2005: Patterns from 2005 to 2010


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## busyworks (Jul 22, 2016)

I'm really sick of everything being the governments fault. EVERYONE plays the victim card now. It's honestly disgusting.

There's no boogieman out there making life hard for whatever racial/gender/social group is currently feeling like they're being conspired against.


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## amlove21 (Jul 23, 2016)

Etype said:


> That seems like a narrow scope of information to form an opinion off of.  Since they commit crimes at a higher rate, there's a greater chance they have prior convictions.
> 
> No, I wouldn't want to be a black person, just like you wouldn't; just like most blacks wouldn't want to be white. That's a ridiculous question.





AKkeith said:


> I agree with @Etype.
> 
> Finding a carbon copy person with identical history but with a different skin color is next to impossible.
> I think this is what skews the "black person gets worse punishment for same crime" data. They aren't the same people. They don't have the same history. There's too many factors to throw that blanket statement over an entire court case.



Keith, no, it's not that impossible at all. All you have to do is look at court cases for crimes- like, aggravated assault for example. Find a white guy with no priors, and a black guy with no priors. Compare those sentences, and see who gets a longer sentence. The studies posted here show that those black guys get sentences 20% longer across the board.

I wanted to use the facts of the study and take away all those other things that whites usually say ("they're probably criminals anyway/history of convictions/etc") by way of a thought experiment where we had two identical humans in order to actually talk about the issue, not preconceived notions about black culture. Unfortunately, looks like it didn't work. So, whether you agree with the data or not, whether you believe it or not, it's a true statement.

E, same response. It's ok if you think that it's a narrow scope but blacks are punished at a higher rate compared to white people with similar histories and prior criminal conduct. So, regardless of what the rest of the black community does, how often they commit crimes, or any other metric we can look at, the fact remains. Our judicial system unfairly punishes black people even when they do the same things as whites.

To close out- no, it's not a ridiculous question at all. When BLM or whoever wields the WP argument, they're looking for whites with answers like yours.

You'll readily admit you wouldn't trade your race in this country. I can't honestly say I would either, because I think we both agree that choice would a change our lives a great deal. Then you and I would have to deal with racism, violence at a much higher rate, a judicial system that punishes us unfairly, harassment from law enforcement at a higher rate, and whites that hear us talking about our very real social issues and dismiss us as "whiners" and "complainers" and "players of the race card".

I can't speak for 'most blacks' like you did, but I will tell you this- I would be willing to bet a majority of blacks would 100% want to be _treated as if they were white_. And that's what WP is about- no, you wouldn't be black because you'd have to deal with those issues but you'll sit here and say "Well, they commit more crimes and they should just shut up I am sick and tired about hearing them complain about how bad they have it."


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## Beagle (Jul 23, 2016)

My professional experience with the legal/justice system in the military and the civilian side is it's crazy, unfair and doesn't make sense.  In addition I was a jury member for a civil trial that last over a month and it's the craziest thing I have ever seen.  

I have seen minorities get screwed since they didn't have money for a good attorney.


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## compforce (Jul 24, 2016)

I've been staying out of this one up until now.  Here are some thoughts:

1 - I agree that the standards for court imposed sentencing should be the same regardless of race, color, creed or any other factor other than the actions and results of those actions.  I am also firmly opposed to ANY law based on race, whether it defines different punishments or different favorable actions. 



> I have seen minorities get screwed since they didn't have money for a good attorney.



Is that a result of them being a minority or is that the result of them not having money?  The two are not necessarily related.  The folks arguing WP would say that they don't have money because they are a minority.  I would suggest that in today's world that is not a direct causality.  There are plenty of caucasian, male, qualified applicants for jobs that are passed over because of required percentages of minority hires.  This isn't imposed by laws forcing the hiring, but rather through tax credits for maintaining a higher percentage of minority employees.  The credit is big enough that a company that didn't maintain those percentages would be giving up a sizable advantage to competitors.  The end result is that companies are incentivized to hire less qualified people that happen to be a member of a minority.  There are plenty of caucasians that cannot afford a good attorney.  There are also plenty of minorities that can afford a better attorney.

2 - WP is used as the explanation for quite a few things, from career and financial all the way to treatment by the criminal justice system.  I think that much of it has nothing to do with race.  Are there racists, emphatically yes, but they live on all sides of the population.  For every group, minority or not, it's "OK" to make fun of the others and everyone laughs until it's their own group that is targeted. (it's not OK, but the prevailing belief is that it is as long as it is only discussed within their own group).  Ultimately, in my eyes, the whole WP argument boils down to the person's own sense of victimhood.  If a person believes that they are treated unfairly, they will believe they are a victim and that the rest of society owes them something.

3 - Education...  Did you know that a white male now personally pays more than triple on average to go to college than a minority or female?  This is because the system is heavily weighted towards minorities (with the exception of Asian-Americans, who actually average the highest cost) having their education wholly subsidized.  While it is true that minorities that pay for their college pay the same amount on average as non-minorities, the number that have to pay anything is so incredibly low that the end result is much higher average tuition for caucasians.

Investment in higher education by race and ethnicity : Monthly Labor Review: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics

I firmly reject the idea of White Privilege.  I know that the response would be "you're white so you're just ignorant of your own privilege".  Bullshit.  I promise that if you knew my personal history you would be shocked at just how little my race has had to do with where I've been and where I've gone with my life.  If you can think of a disadvantage (other than race or handicap) that a person has had to overcome, I've lived it. 

I think that quite a few people on all sides of the aisle have forgotten the meaning of the statement "content of character, not the color of skin".  I believe very firmly in the idea that we are individuals and that each of us should live our lives and feel the consequences, both positive and negative, based on our own actions.  Not those of others in a group that we happen to belong to; Not those of people who are no longer alive; Not those of anyone other than ourselves. 

The rallying cry should be "judge me for myself" not "check your privilege"  Anything else just continues to create racial divides, tension and racially motivated violence.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 24, 2016)

compforce said:


> Investment in higher education by race and ethnicity : Monthly Labor Review: U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics



I don't know where or how you came to the conclusion you did, but that paper doesn't support your claim.

Key quote: "Controlling for these important factors we find that whereas the decision whether to invest may be different for Asians ,African Americans, and Hispanics, the amount of investment for the most part is not significantly different from whites. "


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## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2016)

compforce said:


> 2 - WP is used as the explanation for quite a few things, from career and financial all the way to treatment by the criminal justice system.  I think that much of it has nothing to do with race.  Are there racists, emphatically yes, but they live on all sides of the population.  For every group, minority or not, it's "OK" to make fun of the others and everyone laughs until it's their own group that is targeted. (it's not OK, but the prevailing belief is that it is as long as it is only discussed within their own group).  Ultimately, in my eyes, the whole WP argument boils down to the person's own sense of victimhood.  If a person believes that they are treated unfairly, they will believe they are a victim and that the rest of society owes them something.


Agree with some, disagree with most. I want to talk about your point 2 though, because I feel like you're either focusing on the wrong thing or you don't fully understand the topic. 

Remember that the base claim for the whole WP argument basically boils down to, "There is a problem with racism in America, blacks are discriminated against, and white people dismiss this fact out of hand and have never had to deal with our issues and therefore don't understand them." If you replace the specific groups and verbiage, you can get to any 'privilege' sort of argument. Feminism, LGBTQ, whatever. "_Just because you haven't had to deal with being a woman in America it doesn't mean these things aren't happening. To believe differently is male privilege."_

It's not that blacks "feel" as if they're treated unfairly and are crying foul, it's that blacks (and other minorities in this country) are actually treated unfairly and they're crying foul. Thicker skin doesn't fix the problem. Being able to take a joke isn't going to fix the problem. In this case, society actually does owe them something.


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## compforce (Jul 24, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I don't know where or how you came to the conclusion you did, but that paper doesn't support your claim.
> 
> Key quote: "Controlling for these important factors we find that whereas the decision whether to invest may be different for Asians ,African Americans, and Hispanics, the amount of investment for the most part is not significantly different from whites. "



The important factor they controlled out was the people that were fully subsidized.  I acknowledged that in my post.  The details are in the raw data which is linked in the article.  You can also look at table C-2 which shows the disparity pretty clearly.  This is very likely a study that was gone into with a predetermined conclusion.  It is intellectually dishonest of them to claim a control on a portion of the population that significantly affects the metrics that they are studying.  They explicitly mention this in one portion of their individualized findings.



> African American young adults tend to have lower rates of college attendance and, among those who decide to attend college,* a lower probability of having any tuition expenditure, even when family permanent income and education level are considered*. However, of those who have any tuition expenses, the levels of expenditures are not significantly different from those of White families. The primary contributing factors to lower levels of household tuition expenditure by African Americans are socioeconomic differences, a lower likelihood to attend college, and the higher likelihood of having no expenditures even when one decides to attend college.



It's not a decision to invest if there is no cost to the investment.  Therefore they just remove all of the people that didn't pay anything and are skewing the final result away from where they want it to be.

Slightly different question, but similar results (this is spreading all tuition across all households regardless of college attendance):


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## Florida173 (Jul 24, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> It's not that blacks "feel" as if they're treated unfairly and are crying foul, it's that blacks (and other minorities in this country) are actually treated unfairly and they're crying foul. Thicker skin doesn't fix the problem. Being able to take a joke isn't going to fix the problem. In this case, society actually does owe them something.



What fixes it and what does "society" owe?


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## compforce (Jul 24, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> Agree with some, disagree with most. I want to talk about your point 2 though, because I feel like you're either focusing on the wrong thing or you don't fully understand the topic.
> 
> Remember that the base claim for the whole WP argument basically boils down to, "There is a problem with racism in America, blacks are discriminated against, and white people dismiss this fact out of hand and have never had to deal with our issues and therefore don't understand them." If you replace the specific groups and verbiage, you can get to any 'privilege' sort of argument. Feminism, LGBTQ, whatever. "_Just because you haven't had to deal with being a woman in America it doesn't mean these things aren't happening. To believe differently is male privilege."_
> 
> It's not that blacks "feel" as if they're treated unfairly and are crying foul, it's that blacks (and other minorities in this country) are actually treated unfairly and they're crying foul. Thicker skin doesn't fix the problem. Being able to take a joke isn't going to fix the problem. In this case, society actually does owe them something.



I disagree with your interpretation.  White privilege as I understand it means that there is some set of advantages granted to the white population that is not given to the minority population.   I do not disagree with you that black people are discriminated against in some ways, maybe even many ways.  I do not disagree that it needs to be fixed where it exists.  I do disagree with trying to deal with it on a class basis.  Doing so drives a wedge between people of different ethnicities.  If we'd just treat people the same across the board, we'd do a whole lot better, even understanding that there will always be a subset of the population that holds racist views.  If the individuals that are using WP as an excuse for their crappy lives would spend the same effort trying to make their lives better, they'd be a whole lot better off.  The people using the WP argument for why...insert something bad... happened would be 100% better off if they threw the victim card in the trash and just took responsibility for their own life.


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## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> What fixes it and what does "society" owe?


Well, I think it's probably way out of my depth to come up with that answer, honestly. In an extremely basic sense, what fixes it is justice. When we can't find a single example of racism- in financial lending, inclusion in higher learning, social programs, the judicial system- I would consider that "fixed". 

As far as society- I don't think society just owes minorities, I think society owes society. Our culture owes it to itself in order to actually continue to survive. We need to get to a place where as an entire society we say, "This isn't just. We have a valid claim where a group/people/section of society have been treated unjustly, and I personally will not stand for it." When that response is "ok" to have and we have legislation and representation that supports that response (to actually enable change), then I think we raise the floor on what our country can be.


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## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2016)

compforce said:


> *If we'd just treat people the same across the board, we'd do a whole lot better, even understanding that there will always be a subset of the population that holds racist views.  If the individuals that are using WP as an excuse for their crappy lives would spend the same effort trying to make their lives better, they'd be a whole lot better off.*


Disagree away, I welcome it.

I think the heart of our disagreement is in the above. I don't want fairness. I don't want to pretend like we don't have different races with different stories, because we do. Most importantly, saying "We are all equal, stop making excuses for your crappy life" is the prototypical WP argument. It's the difference between justice and fairness.

Fairness is saying, "Everyone is equal, no matter what happened before now." Justice is saying, "In order to get an equal starting position, some groups need accessions".

Think of it like MMA. Fairness is, "That bell is going to ring, and you're going to fight. These are fair rules", but no weight classes. Heavyweights, you get to fight flyweights. The rules are fair, fight.

Justice is weight classes. The rules are still fair, but we respect that there are inherent disparities between the combatants and we adjust the system for those differences to prevent anyone from starting with an unfair advantage. In each case, I would argue that the system is fair, but in the second case that system is just.

To continue the MMA example, WP would be the heavyweight champ saying, "Why are these flyweights complaining? Yeah they have to fight me, a 275 lb heavyweight, what's the big deal? I have to fight too! The rules are the rules. Stop complaining about your shitty record."

It bears saying that this is obviously just my opinion.

ETA- typing errors cause I am not smart


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## compforce (Jul 24, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> Fairness is saying, "Everyone is equal, no matter what happened before now." Justice is saying, "In order to get an equal starting position, some groups need accessions".
> 
> Think of it like MMA. Fairness is, "That bell is going to ring, and you're going to fight. These are fair rules", but no weight classes. Heavyweights, you get to fight flyweights. The rules are fair, fight.



Yes, but using your MMA example, how much is too much?  At what point do accessions become abdication?  If the heavyweights have to have their hands and feet tied to the ring posts for the first 10 minutes of the fight, is that fair?  I would submit that many people would think so, based on the current laws and regulations.

My point is that there WILL always be different classes, but from a regulatory point of view I don't think there should be ANY laws that are tied to race.  Do those groups really benefit from concessions or are they actually being hurt by them?  I would highly recommend the book "Freakonomics" which looks into the second and third order effects of many policies of this type.  Almost universally the population that is the subject of a well-meaning regulation or law ends up being inadvertantly harmed by it to a much greater degree.  Society will self-correct unless government sticks its fingers in and screws everything up.


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## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2016)

compforce said:


> Yes, but using your MMA example, how much is too much?  At what point do accessions become abdication?  If the heavyweights have to have their hands and feet tied to the ring posts for the first 10 minutes of the fight, is that fair?  I would submit that many people would think so, based on the current laws and regulations.


Freakonomics was a great book (the second one wasn't bad either, but not as good). The examination of the Roe vs. Wade decision and it's impact on the crime rate is a great example. 

I don't want laws that are tied to race. I want the laws we have to be applied equally across the board regardless of race. I would like a culture- from the legislative and judicial branches on down- that is intolerant of injustice for any reason.  

It's interesting, the part of your quote I left. I say 'it's interesting' because every time I have had this discussion, a quote almost exactly like yours pops up. I'll say, "We agree that not everyone is equal and I want justice, which means everyone is given an equal starting position but that doesn't mean equal outcome. We are just going to remove any unfair advantage." And the response I get is remarkably like yours- "So you mean that we are going to 'tie the heavyweight's hands and feet now? Is that fair'?" 

No, that's not fair, and I never suggested so. I know you were using imagery to illustrate your point, but it also illustrates how different people see this issue differently. I am more concerned with providing disadvantaged players the accessions they need to compete fairly, and you seem to be concerned with the possibility of advantages you enjoy being taken away. 

Even in your choice for wording- "when do accessions become _abdication"._ Abdication is the "the renouncement of power, position, authority or responsibility" (unless you meant it in the royal sense as in to abdicate the throne, which I am sure you didn't). 

I am not assuming any position or authority or power simply because that's the social position I have occupied. I am not worried about abdication, because I personally don't think I have anything to abdicate. I am concerned with affording others with social and judicial accessions to make the system just.


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## AWP (Jul 24, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> Well, I think it's probably way out of my depth to come up with that answer, honestly.









 .


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## compforce (Jul 24, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> Freakonomics was a great book (the second one wasn't bad either, but not as good). The examination of the Roe vs. Wade decision and it's impact on the crime rate is a great example.
> 
> I don't want laws that are tied to race. I want the laws we have to be applied equally across the board regardless of race. I would like a culture- from the legislative and judicial branches on down- that is intolerant of injustice for any reason.



Up to this point, I think we are in agreement (including the review of the second one).



amlove21 said:


> It's interesting, the part of your quote I left. I say 'it's interesting' because every time I have had this discussion, a quote almost exactly like yours pops up. I'll say, "We agree that not everyone is equal and I want justice, which means everyone is given an equal starting position but that doesn't mean equal outcome. We are just going to remove any unfair advantage." And the response I get is remarkably like yours- "So you mean that we are going to 'tie the heavyweight's hands and feet now? Is that fair'?"
> 
> No, that's not fair, and I never suggested so. I know you were using imagery to illustrate your point, but it also illustrates how different people see this issue differently. I am more concerned with providing disadvantaged players the accessions they need to compete fairly, and you seem to be concerned with the possibility of advantages you enjoy being taken away.



This is where I think you are reading me wrong.  I don't want advantages taken away.  I also don't want the starting line for other people (of any race including white) to be placed at what is the half-way mark for me.  The starting line should be in the same place for everyone.  I also think that the evaluation of where we are should be based on today, not some historical precedent that most of us on either side of the aisle never lived through.  The problem with the whole public discussion is that it _is_ based on equal outcome, not equal opportunity.  When affirmative action means "hire anyone but the white male", equal opportunity is gone and now it's something entirely different.

I do believe there is equal opportunity in the US...  or there was until the Government started messing with the economy.  Once the Government stuck their fingers in the pie, a lot of the stepping stones went away.  These were the jobs that were stepping stones to real careers.  Enter the Government on immigration.  When's the last time you went through one of the lower wage, starter job, companies?  In theory the employment should be 13% African American and 60+% white.  That's what it was when I was a teenager working at McDonald's.  Now it is almost entirely hispanic.  How about trades?  Electrician, plumber, etc.  Same thing.  It used to be that those jobs were taken in proportion with the country's demographics.  Now it's exceedingly rare to see a non-immigrant in any of those jobs.  Why?  Because the government stopped controlling immigration and opened the floodgates to everyone else.  Before pointing the finger at WP as the reason that there aren't enough jobs, perhaps a look at who is actually filling the ones that used to be available is worth a moment.  Information technology...  try to get a job as a white male.  You can't.  Why?  Because of the H1-B visa (which Obama and Clinton both want to expand).  You see, it's simple economics.  Let a bunch of people into the country to do the same job for less than a person from the US can do it.  Guess how many US citizens end up not getting those jobs...or having to help train their own replacements.

It's funny how these systems work.  Have higher crime statistics and then complain when the group is profiled by the police.  Can't find a job, it must be the fault of the system preferring white men (never mind that there are simply more of them in the work force).  Statistics can be juggled to show nearly anything.  I know quite a few successful African-Americans.  Know what they all have in common?  They didn't ask for anything, they all just busted their asses to get where they are.  The problem with giving someone that leg up is that they almost inevitably want more.  There's a reason for the adage "give him an inch and he'll take a mile".  I don't mind an equal starting line.  What I mind is when the starting line is moved all the way up to the finish line for some people and the runner is allowed to drive the race while everyone else runs it.



amlove21 said:


> Even in your choice for wording- "when do accessions become _abdication"._ Abdication is the "the renouncement of power, position, authority or responsibility" (unless you meant it in the royal sense as in to abdicate the throne, which I am sure you didn't).
> 
> I am not assuming any position or authority or power simply because that's the social position I have occupied. I am not worried about abdication, because I personally don't think I have anything to abdicate. I am concerned with affording others with social and judicial accessions to make the system just.



I meant the abdication of rights, not power.

All people should be equal under the law.  For example, hate crime laws.  I submit this as an example:





Why can't white people be victims of hate crimes?  Everyone equal under the law, that's what I'm advocating.


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## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2016)

compforce said:


> snip



I disagree with a lot of what you're saying out of principle, but I understand the point you're making. I understood what you said about abdication and your intent, I thought it was worth mentioning maybe not to you, but to someone else reading. 

I'll just restate my points (I think you did a good job of laying yours out): 

The starting line would be even for all involved in my "perfect world" scenario. Things like affirmative action level the field- not move the minority's line ahead of yours. Affirmative action forces a system to hire a quota of minorities where they hadn't done it before. That's not an unfair advantage for minorities, it's admitting a systemic problem and mandating a fix. Yes, your characterization of affirmative action being "Hire anyone but the white man" is pretty dead on. Know why? Because before then, those were the only people we were hiring _even when the better candidate was a minority. _Government had to step in on behalf of it's citizens to mandate a change because we couldn't figure that out on our own.
Of course there are individual examples of black Americans succeeding. Those examples are few and far between enough that they deserve mention- but they are not the rule, they are the exception. I'd be interested to hear about their stories- mainly, if they feel that they would have been more successful if they didn't have to overcome the issues associated with being black in America. They "worked hard and no one ever gave them anything." Well, I can point to hundreds (maybe thousands?) of young white kids that didn't work for shit and were given everything. And got away with everything. 
I am not going to touch the illegal immigrant argument (it's a digression at best and a hijack at worst). 
This conversation isn't about the laziness or perceived lack of motivation about an entire race as it applies to their willingness to get jobs. You can't "work really hard" to get away from racism. If anyone wants to make the argument that illegals are taking jobs from whites, and blacks don't do enough to get a job and instead they blame the system? That's ok, it's their right to do so. When they voice that opinion in public I get to tell them they're a fucking moron, as is my right (or is it a privilege? ). In short, I disagree, but in some cases sure, that has to be true. I accept that. To say that is true for 37 million (ish) Americans? Or a large portion of that number? I feel that is irresponsible. 
I don't mind profiling- because profiling works. That's how we catch serial killers and rapists and prevent terrorism. Systemic harassment and disproportionate punishment of a race is racism. Profiling and racism are inexorably linked, but for that reason we must be the most exact when examining them. 

Bottom line- there are examples of inequality with whites as the oppressed group. I won't deny that. Those isolated facts, though, do not discount the overwhelming number and severity of incidences involving minorities in this country. 

I feel like that's what the WP discussion is about- white people going tit for tat with their minority counterparts and making the argument about something it's not.


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## compforce (Jul 24, 2016)

I don't want to end up restating things as it's counterproductive.  I do want to add some clarification where I feel like my perspective may be misunderstood from your points.



amlove21 said:


> The starting line would be even for all involved in my "perfect world" scenario. Things like affirmative action level the field- not move the minority's line ahead of yours. Affirmative action forces a system to hire a quota of minorities where they hadn't done it before. That's not an unfair advantage for minorities, it's admitting a systemic problem and mandating a fix. Yes, your characterization of affirmative action being "Hire anyone but the white man" is pretty dead on. Know why? Because before then, those were the only people we were hiring _even when the better candidate was a minority. _Government had to step in on behalf of it's citizens to mandate a change because we couldn't figure that out on our own.



if it actually worked like that in the real world, I would agree with it.  The reality though is that it means that companies are forced to hire to meet those quotas whether the candidate is actually the best, or in some cases even qualified.  In the event that the hire is a bad hire, which happens regularly, the company is forced to KEEP the bad employee.  It is practically impossible to release someone that falls under affirmative action without risking a very expensive lawsuit.  I have literally watched someone sleep all day at their desk every day.  The VP of HR was walking with his direct manager and the manager pointed it out.  She walked over and poked him and said "wake up".  10 minutes later they were walking back to the manager's office and the employee was asleep again.  A year later he was released as part of a large layoff.  The reason it took a year?  They would have fallen below the quota.  This was not a manual laborer, this was an IT professional with a 6 figure salary.  It cost the company more than $100k because they had to keep him.


> I am not going to touch the illegal immigrant argument (it's a digression at best and a hijack at worst).


It's neither of those when a part of the WP claim is that minorities are discriminated against in the job market and the jobs that they traditionally fell into are filled by immigrants.


> This conversation isn't about the laziness or perceived lack of motivation about an entire race as it applies to their willingness to get jobs. You can't "work really hard" to get away from racism.


At no point did I say anything about laziness or lack of motivation.  I agree completely that the conversation has nothing to do with that.


> I feel like that's what the WP discussion is about- white people going tit for tat with their minority counterparts and making the argument about something it's not.



I think we are talking about two entirely different discussions that have several points of intersection.  I've been focused very narrowly on the perception that there are inherent advantages to being a member of the caucasian majority.  Advantages that definitely existed for quite a while, but which have been steadily diminishing over the last 20 years.  You seem to be more generally focused on the overall issue of racism, and are making points with which I mostly agree in that context, although there are some where we are ideological opposites.  Where we differ is almost down the line between liberal and conservative points of view.  We agree on the problem, but we disagree on the solutions and ways to make progress.  I don't think we will ever come together on it because our ideas are diametrically opposed.


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## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2016)

compforce said:


> I think we are talking about two entirely different discussions that have several points of intersection.  I've been focused very narrowly on the perception that there are inherent advantages to being a member of the caucasian majority.  Advantages that definitely existed for quite a while, but which have been steadily diminishing over the last 20 years.


I agree with this. I guess I would say that those advantages are more pronounced and less diminished today. Probably because...


compforce said:


> Where we differ is almost down the line between liberal and conservative points of view.  We agree on the problem, but we disagree on the solutions and ways to make progress.  I don't think we will ever come together on it because our ideas are diametrically opposed.


But you know what? That's ok. The two halves of this conversation make the whole. 

Wait, isn't this where I am supposed to call you Hitler, challenge you to a fight, and stomp off?


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## compforce (Jul 24, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> Wait, isn't this where I am supposed to call you Hitler, challenge you to a fight, and stomp off?



Probably, but then it means that I am supposed to respond that you're an Alinsky-ite or compare you to Stalin, accept the fight and stomp off in the other direction.


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## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2016)

compforce said:


> Probably, but then it means that I am supposed to respond that you're an Alinsky-ite or compare you to Stalin, accept the fight and stomp off in the other direction.


lol. Let's not do that then.


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## compforce (Jul 24, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> lol. Let's not do that then.


Hey, we agree on something!


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## AWP (Jul 24, 2016)

For a somewhat lighthearted moment, I just want to say when I see the title I think "white power" and expect to see a thread about the Klan.


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## Salt USMC (Jul 26, 2016)

I want everyone to stop what they're doing and read this interview.  Right now.  Ignore the headline because it's going to color your view regardless of which side of the argument you're on.

http://www.theamericanconservative.com/dreher/trump-us-politics-poor-whites/

J.D. Vance, a Yale Law graduate and self-proclaimed "hillbilly" recently wrote a memoir about his time growing up in the Appalachia region, and the subsequent experiences he had both as a Marine and graduate of an elite Law school.  In this interview, which I found fascinating, he sheds some light on the meme of impoverished whites in America. 

Probably the most interesting part is the advice on race relations that he doles out, both to liberals as well as conservatives.  It's a fresh, nuanced look at the issue that actually caused me to stand up and say "Holy shit."  He also does a shoutout to a favorite author of mine, Ta-Nehisi Coates.  Mr. Coates is another author that I think everyone should read.

@Ranger Psych you'll probably want to read this twice.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 26, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> I want everyone to stop what they're doing and read this interview. Right now. Ignore the headline because it's going to color your view regardless of which side of the argument you're on.



Ummm...where are you taking us!?!?


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## compforce (Jul 26, 2016)

it's OK.  Cloudflare is a service that allows small sites with limited equipment to survive a sudden influx of traffic.  No concerns there, a lot of sites you go to use them, but pay extra not to have that page actually shown.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 26, 2016)

@Deathy McDeath - a good read.  There is much I agree with, some I don't.  And while I am on record stating I could be for "whomever" before I support Hillary Clinton, deep down in the darkest corners of my soul, there is a hidden part of me that hopes Hillary beats Trump.  This paragraph from the article you posted would best describe my relationship with Mr. Trump:

_"Well, I think the speech itself was a perfect microcosm of why I love and am terrified of Donald Trump.  On the one hand, he criticized the elites and actually acknowledge the hurt of so many working class voters. After so many years of Republican politicians refusing to even talk about factory closures, Trump’s message is an oasis in the desert.  But of course he spent way too much time appealing to people’s fears, and he offered zero substance for how to improve their lives.  It was Trump at his best and worst."_


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## Salt USMC (Jul 26, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> _"Well, I think the speech itself was a perfect microcosm of why I love and am terrified of Donald Trump.  On the one hand, he criticized the elites and actually acknowledge the hurt of so many working class voters. After so many years of Republican politicians refusing to even talk about factory closures, Trump’s message is an oasis in the desert.  But of course he spent way too much time appealing to people’s fears, and he offered zero substance for how to improve their lives.  It was Trump at his best and worst."_


Completely agree.  Both parties have pretty much abandoned the plight of poor white Americans, but after reading this article I think that it's a more shameful act by Democrats since we bill ourselves as the party looking out for the poor and downtrodden.  Hell, West Virginia used to be a solidly-blue state up until 2000 or so, but somewhere along the line the Democrats seemingly forgot about them.  I can understand why: the specter of Jim Crow and the fight for civil rights is ever-present on the minds of a lot of liberals, so it would only be natural that they focus primarily on poor minority communities.  And with respect to West Virginia specifically, coal mining is on the decline (for good reason, in my opinion).  With no industry to replace it, you're really messing with the livelihoods of a lot of miners.  Still, it's a shame that poor whites got dumped along the way.


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## Brill (Jul 26, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Completely agree.  Both parties have pretty much abandoned the plight of poor white Americans, but after reading this article I think that it's a more shameful act by Democrats since we bill ourselves as the party looking out for the poor and downtrodden.



I really don't think anyone is buying that anymore especially with the financial issues of the CGI that are raising eyebrows.

I wonder how the Gates foundation manages to avoid things like that.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 26, 2016)

lindy said:


> I really don't think anyone is buying that anymore especially with the financial issues of the CGI that are raising eyebrows.
> 
> I wonder how the Gates foundation manages to avoid things like that.



This was a dead issue the minute it came out of the gate. What can be done about it, it's part of our society.  It address only whites which does nothing more than foster more dividing of our population. Are they expecting anything  different from affluent white people? Hilary is," Going to talk with those WP People" She does every day, and takes their money for her run for office, or the Clinton Foundation. Diners with the Clintons go for $200,000 a plate, and she will be talking with WP then too. This is pure BS, divisive politics, and should have never come up. In my head, this thread should be locked down, but that is just my $.02. I know others have their thoughts on this too. The idea behind this has not been well thought out at all, IMHO.


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## Ranger Psych (Jul 26, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> @Ranger Psych you'll probably want to read this twice.



Erm, You're the Marine bud... _My_ OPORD's didn't have pictures other than who specifically to kill/capture.

Among many things which are very apt in that article, this stands out to me:

*There’s never going to be an economy rich enough or a government program strong enough to compensate for the lack of a stable family and the absence of self-discipline.*

It's the best statement out of everything in that article, in my opinion... and destroys the primary focus of the democratic party (everything can and should be addressed with a government solution).


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 26, 2016)

Ranger Psych said:


> Erm, You're the Marine bud... _My_ OPORD's didn't have pictures other than who specifically to kill/capture.



Shit we didn't even get that, just a bullshit deck of card's "everyone look at the 6 of spades" or whatever the hell, normally a picture that was 20 years old. "Oh, that guy, if you see that guy, grab that guy, some geek at batalion wants to talk to that guy".


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## Florida173 (Jul 26, 2016)

Still looking for that damn King of Clubs


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## Muppet (Jul 29, 2016)

Found on facebook.

M.


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## Florida173 (Aug 2, 2016)

> More than 60 organizations associated with the Black Lives Matter movement have released a series of demands on Monday, including for reparations.



Reparations?

1.2% of the population owned slaves at the height.

I believe in 2009 the Senate formally apologized for slavery. 

Text of H.Res. 194 (110th): Apologizing for the enslavement and racial segregation of African-Americans



> As part of the effort, the groups are demanding, among other things, reparations for what they say are past and continuing harms to African-Americans, an end to the death penalty, legislation to acknowledge the effects of slavery, as well as investments in education initiatives, mental health services and jobs programs.


http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/08/02/us/politics/black-lives-matter-campaign.html


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 2, 2016)

Reading this story makes me want to take all the acknowledgment I have attempted to give the concept of "white privileges", and tell tell em' all to "stick it".

White people can come to your rallies and you encourage whites to get themselves in a position be arrested before blacks, fine.

You start singling out whites and asking them not to talk to the media or tell them to go the  figurative "back of the bus" during rallies - then you are simply practicing reverse discrimination-

The tactics of the Minneapolis BLM chapter continues to confound me; their blocking of roadways and overt disdain for the police gains them no support from me.

For black leaders, white allies can require a balancing act

“_The majority of white allies seem comfortable with black leadership in the movement, and they are reminded to check their privilege when they become involved with the demonstrations,” said Nekima Levy-Pounds, president of the Minneapolis chapter of the NAACP. “It means we know that white privilege is a real phenomenon; it means they would be willing to take a secondary role and defer to black leadership.”_


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## Red Flag 1 (Aug 2, 2016)

The racial divide has taken a huge leap into the past. What ever ground that had been gained in the last 50 years, has been all washed away. We are more racily divided now, and the blame goes to the leadership of our nation over the past eight years. While the sign on Pres Truman's desk, that said, "The Buck Stops Here" has long been hidden away, it is still where the buck stops. I'm afraid the "Buck" has been dropped into a boiling vat that just gets stirred every now and then.

My $.02.


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## AWP (Aug 2, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> “_The majority of white allies seem comfortable with black leadership in the movement, and they are reminded to check their privilege when they become involved with the demonstrations,” said Nekima Levy-Pounds, president of the Minneapolis chapter of the NAACP. “It means we know that white privilege is a real phenomenon; it means they would be willing to take a secondary role and defer to black leadership.”_



I'm not racist, I have white friends.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 2, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I'm not racist, I have white friends.



Check your privilege man, there are people who don't have white friends.


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## 104TN (Aug 2, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> "I'm not racist, I have white friends."
> -Abraham Lincoln


FIFY


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## macNcheese (Aug 2, 2016)

rick said:


> FIFY


I'm pretty sure that's a Melania Trump quote


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## amlove21 (Aug 2, 2016)

macNcheese said:


> I'm pretty sure that's a Melania Trump quote


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## Muppet (Aug 2, 2016)

Fucking @amlove21 is on fire tonight! GET SOME BRO!

M.


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## AWP (Aug 3, 2016)

Muppet said:


> Fucking @amlove21 is on fire tonight! GET SOME BRO!
> 
> M.



He's like a reliever in baseball. Sure, he shows up and throws some wicked pitches...for an inning.


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## Muppet (Aug 3, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> He's like a reliever in baseball. Sure, he shows up and throws some wicked pitches...for an inning.



Reminds me of Mitch Williams of the Phillies in the 90's. Crazy as fuck, gets the job done but gives you heart burn for an inning and a half....

M.


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## Brill (Aug 3, 2016)

He has some valid points.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 3, 2016)

lindy said:


> He has some valid points.



He makes a lot of assumptions and is giving opinions without any factual evidence.  Rednecks don't hate cops, a lot of cops are rednecks.  Criminals hate cops, and criminals come in all colors, shapes and sizes. Criminal rednecks are killed by cops all the time. It's just not paraded on the news, like it is when the black thug criminal is.

This is the type of stuff I cannot stand, someone making statements that sound rational, until you pick apart what they are actually saying. Than you compare it with facts and evidence and see its just more bullshit. Example: the NRA was started to help secure firearm rights for blacks who were being denied possession, by the southern demacrats after the recunstruction era. He implies that the NRA is some how racist, or would care more if white folks were being killed. However, after all those young white kids were killed at Sands Hook, they did like they always do, worktops protect gun rights for all Americans. Or how about the young black man they have as an official NRA endorsed TV host. Yeah, about that shit...

How about that more white people are killed by cops than blacks?

Police kill more whites than blacks, but minority deaths generate more outrage: analysis

Or the emplying that rednecks are all racist because we're not up in arms in support of BLM. Generally I've seen more white people at BLM protests than I have seen blacks. And for us (people like me) who are redneck, who think BLM is bullshit, and could fucking careless when any shit bag criminal is killed for fighting with the police and failing to comply, I can tell you it has zip to do with race, and everything to do with not caring about shit bags who are a drain on society. I don't weep for shit bag people, regardless of their skin color.


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## Brill (Aug 3, 2016)

@Diamondback 2/2 , you know he started out as a comedian in TN?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 3, 2016)

lindy said:


> @Diamondback 2/2 , you know he started out as a comedian in TN?



No I didn't,  just watched it and commented.


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## RackMaster (Aug 12, 2016)

Just an observation that pertains to this conversation. I just got back from a vacation in Niagara Falls with the family.  I have to say there wasn't a lot of "white privilege" going on there.  Majority of the tourists I saw were of Indian (not native) or Asian decent.  And while waiting forever in line for attractions, I witnessed several different groups of black tourists use their new found "privilege" push their way through the lines to get to the front; including pushing young families with strollers, people in wheelchairs and more, out of the way and giving dirty looks at anyone that opposed them.  This was not an isolated incident or at just one attraction or one day.  I'm not saying all were like that but I put the blame firmly on the BLM movement.

Now the other group of assholes I saw were white but from Quebec.


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## aequus (Aug 17, 2016)

Before you read this, attempt to disassociate the following terms and buzzwords used beneath from their connotations and their association with public media.  

White privilege exists.  Just because you in your personal scope of view believe that you have experiences that denote otherwise doesn't amount to any more than anecdotal evidence.  A simple analysis of readily available statistics will show that white Americans are given preferential treatment.  This isn't a white person telling another white person directly that they're receiving said treatment.  From beauty standards and ideals to a plethora of other areas, white people are highlighted.  It's not necessarily a matter of what you've received, but what you haven't.

The media has a heavy hand in this for many reasons and its influence permeates through the very core of society.  Many people would have you believe that crime is at an all time high and that further restrictions should be placed on guns.  If you ask said people why, they will point out the recent Orlando shootings or any of the others highlighted by sensational news agenda that is pushed by the media.  In fact, if anyone were to bother looking at the statistics, they would notice that crime has as a general trend been steadily decreasing over the past decades.  It's here that another interesting thing should be pointed out, why are crime rates falling?  Why is that important?  Well I've noticed several members cite that African-Americans are more likely to commit a violent crime, and that's true.  However, before making a hasty conclusion, one should take a moment to analyze why that might be?  Is it perhaps because their in general the blacks happen to have a low socioeconomic status?  Maybe it's another reason, but if the aforementioned statement is why they are more prone to commit crime then why won't they just life themselves up by their bootstraps and find a job and do what they can to become a hardworking American.  It's not that simple, systemic poverty exists (if you are to subscribe to that theory).  

In essence, statistics are valuable and they can be manipulated to support statements.  It's only once you take to fully process the information that you are given that you can truly give an informed opinion.  

And I've seen several people discussing the current election.  In an ideal world people running for office would embody different traits than they currently do; however, it's not an ideal world and we as the people are uneducated.  The average american is sadly not very educated when it comes to our political system.  Worse than that fact is how low our voter turnout is.  And when you combine the two you can only have a recipe for disaster.


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## Brill (Aug 24, 2016)

The comments on this student paper are troubling.

“#StopWhitePeople2K16” is an Official Part of Residential Assistant Training


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## Red Flag 1 (Aug 24, 2016)

lindy said:


> The comments on this student paper are troubling.
> 
> “#StopWhitePeople2K16” is an Official Part of Residential Assistant Training



I know "Binghamton University" well. I grew up there, and the entire county, Broome County" is 100% liberal, with a full tilt to the hard left. Over the years, they have taken a thriving, vibrant triple city area from booming to dead. The policies and guidance of the political leaders has driven IBM (two huge plants), Strohmans Bread, Endicott Johnson Shoes, Link Aviation out of the area with growing tax rates. The downtown city area is no longer lined with stores, shops, cafes , three movie theaters, and  specialty shops; it is a ghost town with drugs being the prime business when the sun goes down. The bulk of the students at BU, are from NYC. The tuition rates are too high for the local students who have to go to Broome Community College, and then transfer to another school out of the area. All of the BU students get their degrees and go back to NYC, or the other North Eastern States.  BU is noted for a strong Per-Med program. There were four local hospitals ready to support a Medical School @ BU. The locals did not approve the plan because of the cost. Truth be known, the local medical community shut the idea down for fear of loosing patients (Read that as money and smarter docs) to the medical school. The local Democratic Mayor supported the local docs, they were voters. Better to get the votes now, than to make the move that would have brought billions into the area. So now it sits, spinning it's wheels, and BU runs the town, and the town is dead.


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