# Looking for Special Topo Maps



## Poetic_Mind (Sep 6, 2014)

Alright,

So, I've taken the job as my Battalion's S2 for the last month now. I've settled in pretty well and have been able to do a search and discover the answers to any question or problem I may have had, but I ran into one issue I just can't adequately solve.

How do I find topo maps without transportation measures printed on them? I.E Road names, building names, railroad names, et cetera? I asked my higher Bde S2 and there seems to be no knowledge of how to do that. I asked their "topo experts", who are privates and specialists that directed me to nga.mil. From there, I found different branching paths. The first one was to establish an account through the defense logistics agency-aviation, which is currently pending. Another was to GEOINT-Online on the same site, but I couldn't get access to it as of yet either. So, in the mean time, I decided to look at the open source material on the web, but found little.

The closest thing I found was topo maps from usgs.gov, which actually have nice maps that can filter out certain things like road names, but all of the maps are 1:24,000. USGS would be perfect if they had different scales, the one that I'm really looking for is :50,000. My BN Commander is certain I can find adequate maps without transportation on them, but I'm stuck. USGS is good but to cover the training area we usually cover, I'd have to get multiple maps to cover the right amount of space, which 1:24,000 just can't do.

Perhaps the Defense Logistics Agency-Aviation will have what I'm looking for, but until I get approved for an account and can find what I need, I wanted to get advice from others who may have been in my situation and establish a decent capability in my shop to acquire maps, which it never has done before.

I'm attempting the find these particular topo maps to meet my Commander's guidance to create maps that require our subordinate units to utilize terrain and operational measures like MSRs rather than local road names that we typically find on the maps we use.

Thanks

V/R,
PM


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## x SF med (Sep 6, 2014)

Poetic_Mind said:


> ...
> 
> I'm attempting the find these particular topo maps to meet my Commander's guidance to create maps that require our subordinate units to utilize terrain and operational measures like MSRs rather than local road names that we typically find on the maps we use.
> 
> ...



A commander's directive is not enough to bring subordinate units in line with using normal military operating procedures?  We always used the USGS maps, and used the MSRs and LOCs ....  WTF?


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## Poetic_Mind (Sep 6, 2014)

I asked myself the same question...I guess it's just that much of a bother to ignore names for roads and exchange them with our military operational measures for field training. If I can't find it, I'll have to just try to do something to customize the USGS maps. Like I said, they work, but for some reason they only come in one scale.


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## x SF med (Sep 7, 2014)

Poetic_Mind said:


> I asked myself the same question...I guess it's just that much of a bother to ignore names for roads and exchange them with our military operational measures for field training. If I can't find it, I'll have to just try to do something to customize the USGS maps. Like I said, they work, but for some reason they only come in one scale.



Yeah...  protrtactors don't work worth a shit on 1:24K... although on  1:25K, 1:50K, 1:world... they work fine.


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## AWP (Sep 7, 2014)

Can't engineering units at least reproduce maps, potentially at a difference scale? I'm spitballing, but my maps for Afghanistan, admittedly not the 1:50k you describe, were all produced by whatever units were in country at the time.


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## Florida173 (Sep 7, 2014)

If I was in the situation I would just load up ArcGIS and make my own map...


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## Il Duce (Sep 7, 2014)

At Division there is a combined GEOINT/IMINT section that has the capability to build a map at whatever scale you would like with/without whatever graphics you'd like on the map.  If you're in a unit that doesn't have a Division HQs the mapping application in DCGS-A (ARCMap) can do the same thing.  The hard part will be producing the volume you need.  You'll need to track down elements with a plotter (GEOINT/IMINT has them but a lot of plans shops do as well).

Being able to produce maps at need is definitely an important skill for an S2 shop at any level so it might be worth your time to take this as an opportunity to invest in that training for your troopers on their organic equipment (DCGS-A).


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## Dame (Sep 7, 2014)

This site will take the USGS maps and let you customize the scale. You can also view the customized map before ordering. Looks like most of the custom scale 24" x 36" sizes will run you about $15. You can order up to a 5 ft x 8 ft at 1:50K scale.

http://www.mytopo.com/search.cfm

ETA: They also have software. Hope this helps.


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## Dame (Sep 7, 2014)

Found a few options. This is a sample of their satellite hybrid.


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## Brill (Sep 7, 2014)

1. Relieve your MICO 1SG immediately and tell your 35Gs those fuckfaces that they're next if this BS continues.  A PVT "directing" anyone anywhere...

2. NGA is where it's at. If the maps aren't there (dunno about unclassified side though)....you don't need them (or they'll make them for you).  Like @Florida173 mention, I too go their JWICS site to import over to ArcGIS to manipulate.


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## Il Duce (Sep 7, 2014)

The Army Geospatial Center is a pretty good resource for finding what's available on the unclassified side: https://cac.agc.army.mil/ as well as ArcGIS online: http://www.arcgis.com/home and NGA's site Geoint online: https://geoint-online.nga.mil

If you're really serious about improving your Geospatial knowledge, not just securing maps, I'd recommend joining milbook and some of the sites they have there.  There are a host of great tools in many of the sites.  Here's an example of a list of great GEOINT resources from one posting from the Tactical Intelligence group: https://www.milsuite.mil/book/docs/DOC-1846

Milbook does require a CAC but is a very good site all in all.


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## Poetic_Mind (Sep 7, 2014)

Dame said:


> This site will take the USGS maps and let you customize the scale. You can also view the customized map before ordering. Looks like most of the custom scale 24" x 36" sizes will run you about $15. You can order up to a 5 ft x 8 ft at 1:50K scale.
> 
> http://www.mytopo.com/search.cfm
> 
> ETA: They also have software. Hope this helps.



That was one of the open source things I found. It looked okay, but I couldn't see if it would let me just customize a digital copy on Adobe or something. Since I have a plotter, I was hoping I could pull a customized PDF like USGS has and print it on the plotter we got. :/


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## Poetic_Mind (Sep 7, 2014)

lindy said:


> 1. Relieve your MICO 1SG immediately and tell your 35Gs those fuckfaces that they're next if this BS continues.  A PVT "directing" anyone anywhere...
> 
> 2. NGA is where it's at. If the maps aren't there (dunno about unclassified side though)....you don't need them (or they'll make them for you).  Like @Florida173 mention, I too go their JWICS site to import over to ArcGIS to manipulate.



Haha there is no real MICO on Ft. Sill except one, but they're a post MICO that is completely detached from any of the forscom units. I don't even know what they do here to be honest. The SNCO in Bde is a 13F that probably doesn't know anything about intel like a 35-series except for Targeting, which is all FA cares about. What's sad is the leadership in our Bde doesn't know anything and any answer I get is usually bad, so I've just been learning what they do on my own and how to do it better. It's all good though. I already have capabilities they themselves haven't had yet. :)
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And that's awesome Sir, I appreciate the guidance. I just got a look at Geoint-online and it looks like the TLMs there can be made the way I want them, but I need to wait for my approvals to go through at the start of the work week.

I'll definitely look at improving my knowledge on Geospatial intel. I'm taking a bare bones S2 shop that used to be the BN's personal PAO/Physical Security office and not an intel office and building a lot of systems that I think need to be in the shop. I'll look into those resources and see what else there is. I have a lot on my plate because our Bde 2 is pulling my only 35F to deploy within a month, so I'm learning all of my shop's functions--all I have is a Targeting Warrant, so we're pretty thin as it is. But all I can do is research and learn.

And regarding your earlier post, we're the force field artillery for a Division that is located in a different Post, so accessing those resources is incredibly difficult. I'm trying to get myself into a class to learn DCGS-A because of the loss to my only intel analyst until I can get another one, which I have made a case to my leadership to get one in, so right now I can't use that system. We have our own plotter surprisingly and someone just got it up after it was collecting dust forever so I definitely want to get that thing involved because I am not too far off from being able to produce my own maps independently.

Much Appreciated

V/R,
PM


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## Il Duce (Sep 8, 2014)

@Poetic_Mind

So you’re an MI Officer branch detailed to FA serving as an FA BN S-2 in an FA BDE on a non-Divisional post?

I thought given those circumstances you might have a dearth of MI resources and mentorship in your chain and duty station so wanted to offer you some advice.  As this is unsolicited advice, please feel free to take it or leave it as you see fit.

S2 shops in non-maneuver units can be very challenging.  The resources and MTOE are much smaller and the command and staff generally don’t care as much about intelligence – so don’t spend the time developing their S2 shops.  If the S1 messes up awards or the S4 fails to get supplies delivered you can bet the command team is all over it.  If the S2 gives bad intelligence it’s generally shrugged off as ‘what can you do.’  Bad intelligence folks take advantage of this to skate by, good ones accept the reality and are twice as hard on themselves and their shop.

There are a host of things you’ll want to do but I’d recommend the following as priorities:

#1 Build your team.  Your S2 shop needs to function as a unit with a high level of technical skill at the individual and collective level.  Many an S2 shop will be used to PT with the company and office work hours focused on personnel security.  Reorganizations have left most S2 shops with a 35F E6 as the NCOIC.  It means frequently they will not have a great deal of leadership experience.  It is important to set out immediate team-building and training for your S2 shop.  Your S2 needs to get used to working together and your NCOs need to learn to be NCOs.  Start with the basics – PT, land navigation, map reading, enemy capabilities, and briefing skills.  As you build a rhythm and capability to train you’ll want to increase the difficulty and the topics.  Counsel your leaders on this in writing.  If you need help with counseling send me a PM and I’ll send you the counseling templates I use to train junior leaders.

#2 Develop, Train, and Refine your production cycle.  Intelligence enables leaders to make quicker, more effective decisions.  Everything you produce should be focused on that decision-making ability.  INTSUMS, GRINTSUMs, Reports, Maps, etc. don’t mean anything if they don’t allow leaders to make decisions. The leader in question could be your BN CDR – but it could also be a team leader on patrol.  When I was an S-2 in IZ and later AF I found most of the CDR’s decisions could be worked days/weeks in advance – squad leaders on patrol needed updates by the minute.  Think hard and talk to leaders in your organization about the decisions they have to make, how they consume information, and how they can receive information before deciding what you will produce and how you will disseminate it.  The greatest product in the world does no good to people who can’t access it.  Production that can’t be disseminated is worthless.  Production that takes time, energy, and effort away from leaders while they decipher it is worse than worthless – it is robbing them of time and mental energies they could be using in the fight.  There’s no way to figure any of those things out about production and dissemination from your office.  Get out with the leaders of your unit, find out how they operate, think ahead to how intelligence can help them, then try some things out.  Some of it is not going to work.  Have a thick skin and be brutal in your AARs.  ‘S2 this is worthless’ is a great thing to hear from a leader.  Let’s you know what didn’t work so you can move on to something that does.

#3 Increase and Refine your knowledge of the Profession.  You’re never going to know enough or have enough information to predict the future with 100% accuracy – but that’s what you have to strive to do.  Most intelligence personnel will deliver what they are asked for.  The best intelligence personnel deliver what they’re asked for – and what they SHOULD have been asked for.  Leaders in your unit are not experts in intelligence collection capabilities, reporting, and data analysis.  They don’t have to know that shit – YOU and your team need to know it for them.  The intelligence community is HUGE, with a great deal of capability at echelons above reality that, thanks to the internets, is available to your unit.  You have to constantly study to become knowledgeable about capabilities and employment of enablers to help your analysis while simultaneously understanding your unit’s operations down to the team level to predict what they’re going to need to know, how to get it, how to put it into a usable format, and get it to them without disrupting the thousand other things they’ve got to do to kill mother-fuckers.  No MI trooper I’ve ever met is smart enough to do it all – but the best ones never stop trying to be.  And, the best shops, the best teams, are that smart – as a team.

Recommend the following resources to continue your personal, and team education process:

1.  Intelligence Knowledge Network (IKN): https://ikn.army.mil/portal/ - It’s the USAICS portal and has links to great resources.  One of the best for you will be the Intel Cyclopedia, which has a huge trove of training and resource explanations and links.  It’s a great introduction to the wider intel community.

2.  Virtual Footlocker: https://ikn.army.mil/apps/virtualfootlocker/ - Also on IKN it has the resource information for most of the courses taught at USAICS.  Great for training and familiarity with MOS’ and skills in MI.

3.  INTELINK and Intellipedia: https://www.intelink.gov/my.policy - not as much on the NIPR side as there is on SIPR and JWICS but still a great place to start when researching any MI topic

4.  MilSuite: https://www.milsuite.mil/book/get-started - I mentioned this to you before but it’s a great resource.  It’s a more updated AKO and there are a number of great professional sites.  I recommend you at a minimum join: Army Intelligence – Officer Professional Development; Military Intelligence Space; S2 Tactical Intelligence; Intelligence Tools of the Trade; and COIST (Company Intelligence Support Team)

5.  Correspondence Courses.  As a LT I took the MI Officer Basic and Advanced Course correspondence courses and found them very helpful in refreshing knowledge on a variety of topics.  Correspondence Courses are structured differently now but still good information.  On ATRRS (https://www.atrrs.army.mil/selfdevctr/catalog/course.aspx) recommend taking 301 D15 (basic analyst course) and several from the University of MI: https://umi.ikn.army.mil/moodle/

I’ll add a couple of other things on the branch detail program to end this novella.  Branch detail has some positive and negative aspects but I recommend two things you’ll want to do to get the most out of it for your career.

Number 1: Attend and graduate Ranger School.  Rightly or wrongly the Ranger tab is looked at by most maneuver commanders as the mark of successful leadership ability as a branch detail.  The MI Corps in a Division of 3 BCTs has exactly 3 company commands available for MI officers – with an MTOE strength of somewhere around 45 MI CPTs.  That means command in the MI Corps is extremely competitive.  In the Division I’m in there is not a single MI CPT with a Ranger tab that has not commanded or been offered a command.

Number 2: Being an S2 is great but the reason you’re branch detailed is to build leadership skills and combat arms knowledge you straight-MI peers do not have.  Push to be a platoon leader and an XO.  The vast majority of your non-MI peers will not have that opportunity and it makes a huge difference in leadership development.  We have huge problems with basic leadership at every level in the MI Corps for a variety of reasons but one of them is the lack of leadership training and experience – something being a PL and XO in a line company is going to force you to be moderately competent at if nothing else.  When I look at MI officers I’ll take a good leader who knows how to train and develop an element and is willing to learn the technical stuff over someone with phenomenal technical skills but limited leadership ability.


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