# Sua Sponte by dick couch



## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 16, 2012)

Did and search and didn't find anything on here about this forthcoming book, and thought I'd make it know to the community. Given the title, mr. Couch's previous work, and his established way of writing about the training/A&S of SOF unit's, I'm willing to wager this one is similar to all those regards except about the 75th. Not much info I could find except title and release date, link posted below:

http://www.amazon.com/Sua-Sponte-Fo...7589/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1326772702&sr=8-1


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## Tropicana98 (Jan 17, 2012)

I heard about this book, it comes out the day after I ship so no reading it on the plane/bus to Sand Hill but looks like a it will be a good read.


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## goon175 (Jan 17, 2012)

Interesting, no one has ever really written about RIP/RASP before, most people just jump straight to Ranger School (probably why so many people think you have to go to Ranger School to get into the 75th). One thing about the current RASP program, every class is different. People who G2 the course either through reading books, talking to recycles coming into their class, or talking to recent grads, will be in for a rude awakening. My younger brother who is in RASP right now found that out first hand. Some classes have as high as a 5o% grad rate, some as low as 10% (not including pre-rasp attrition). I'm sure the book will give an insightful look into the program, but may already be outdated before the first book hits the shelves. Of course there are constants that never change (Ranger standards, going to cole range, etc)


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 17, 2012)

Yea, well the same can be said about dick couch's "chosen soldier". While a outstanding read and insightful, it's changed since the writing, including the length of A&S.


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## goon175 (Jan 17, 2012)

Yup. But like I said, it will be a great insight into a program that there is little known about other than by those who have BTDT since the new RASP program has started.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 17, 2012)

Agreed. Tried finding a bit more info on it out of curiosity but aside from personal experiences (which are still informative and interesting to read), not a lot of info on RASP. For good reason I'm sure and I don't blame the regiment in any way wanting to keep info about the course hush hush to not let anyone have a advantage when going through it, but like you said goon it's changed up often.


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## dknob (Jan 17, 2012)

I wish he would just write a book about being a Case Officer and The Farm already

that would be an interesting read.


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## goon175 (Jan 17, 2012)

I think this is about as comprehensive as it gets, I'm sure the Couch book will expound on this:



> *Ranger Assessment and Selection Program Overview*
> 
> The 75th Ranger Regiment is a direct-action special operations raid force that conducts forcible entry operations and special operations raids across the entire spectrum of combat. The Regiment is capable of planning and executing complex worldwide operations in high-risk, uncertain, and politically sensitive areas. It is constantly transforming to meet future operational requirements without sacrificing mission success.
> The Regiment’s four battalions geographically located throughout the U.S., can deploy anywhere in the world for no-notice missions. Their capabilities include direct action raids in limited visibility, adverse weather, varied terrain and complex operating environments to capture or kill designated targets and/or seize terrain and strategic installations. Capable of infiltrating by land, sea or air, the 75th Ranger Regiment is trained on a wide variety of mobility platforms and operates fully integrated with supporting agencies and other Special Operations Forces as required.
> ...


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## Tropicana98 (Jan 17, 2012)

goon175 said:


> I think this is about as comprehensive as it gets, I'm sure the Couch book will expound on this: *RASP 1 is an 8 week selection course that is broken down into Phase 1, which is three weeks long; and Phase 2, which is five weeks long.*


 
Is this part of the continuous evolution of RASP you were speaking of? As it was my understanding the split between phases was 4 weeks each. I have no interest in G2'ing the course I'm just interested in the rationale because it seems like their will be more time spent on the core skills of Regiment making for even more competent graduates.


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## dknob (Jan 17, 2012)

I mean.. even before RASP, when a Ranger graduated RIP, his first month in Regiment is nothing but in-house training of all of the following listed above. Now they just consolidate it into a class structure.


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## Boon (Jan 17, 2012)

It's actually good, because a lot of people used to get to Batt, unable to learn some of the necessary skills.  This weeds them out earlier, rather than dealing with the headache of dealing with them until they get RFS'd down the line.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 17, 2012)

Appreciate the post goon, very insightful.


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## goon175 (Jan 17, 2012)

Yes, it was changed from 4x4 to 3x5. Pre RASP is supposed to be 3-4 weeks as well, but can be curtailed to fill a RASP class starting that has slots open.

Again, the above is a general outline, and is not all inclusive.

One of the best things about this is because of the fact that all MOS's attend RASP, Regiment will probably have some of the most squared away support guys in the Military. Imagine being a 42A straight out of AIT getting explosive breacher, SOCP, RFR/TCCC, advanced marskmanship, FRIES, etc. Pretty damn cool.

Of the guys going out on target, 11-series have the shortest pipeline, 13F and 25C/U's have additional training they have to do after graduation of RASP (2-4 weeks long) before they go to batt., and 68W's have the longest pipeline, having to go on to 4 months of pre-socm and 9 months of socm. Many of those guys knock out EFMB in the process as well. And of course some guys go straight to SURT and RS, based on rank, performance, and displayed leadership potential.

Changes are still on going, but really who cares, just show up in the best shape of your life, give 110% on all events, and don't quit. Thats probably 70% of it right there.


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## Tropicana98 (Jan 17, 2012)

That's my mindset sorry if seems like I'm focusing on small details I just like reading all things SOF,Regiment especially, call it a hobby/possibly bordering on obsession haha.


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## Copenhagen (Jan 19, 2012)

Nice... I'm in this book...


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## goon175 (Jan 20, 2012)

Did you make it?


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## dknob (Jan 20, 2012)

What's Pre-RASP all about?


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## goon175 (Jan 20, 2012)

PT preperation for RASP, admin (getting real CAC cards, etc.), participating in RASP 2 training events, training for RASP (land nav classes, knots classes, etc), getting packing list squared away, things like that. Not a formal course, but more structured than what RIP Hold was (doing details all day)


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 20, 2012)

It deff sounds like a excellent prep! I'm sure the land nav classes and knot classes before hand are helpful before actually going into RASP.


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## goon175 (Jan 20, 2012)

I think it would be good if they had a formalized prep course like SOPC, who knows though, they are making improvements all the time.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 20, 2012)

prep course to the prep course? sounds a bit redundant but hey if it works, it works!


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## goon175 (Jan 20, 2012)

I meant turning pre-rasp into a more formalized course, like SOPC, not having both of them.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 20, 2012)

goon175 said:


> I meant turning pre-rasp into a more formalized course, like SOPC, not having both of them.


 
ah, my mistake. does sound like a good idea. any chance putting it into the regiment "suggestion box" would do any good?


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## dknob (Jan 21, 2012)

We don't need a prep course for RASP, ffs its 8 weeks long. Cmon now.


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## ManBearPig (Jan 21, 2012)

Adding the book to my reading list.  Should be a good read.


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## CDG (Jan 21, 2012)

dknob said:


> We don't need a prep course for RASP, ffs its 8 weeks long. Cmon now.


 
SFAS has SOPC for 18x and REP-63 contract holders.

Actually, what do you think about SF and Ranger candidates going to SOPC together and then continuing on to their respective Selections?


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 21, 2012)

CDG said:


> SFAS has SOPC for 18x and REP-63 contract holders.
> 
> Actually, what do you think about SF and Ranger candidates going to SOPC together and then continuing on to their respective Selections?


 
Sounds like a generally good idea to me, though for PT, land nav and other such classes. Might wanna break the two groups (ones going SFAS and ones going RASP) into two diff groups at some point for some things such as unit history classes and such. Then again this is coming from someone who has not gone through either, just a vet who's looking at it in a common sense context. Would like to hear what others who have been through either or both prep courses think though.


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## Brian1/75 (Jan 21, 2012)

SOPC is at Bragg from what I understand. It'd be an expensive and pointless TDY with nothing really to gain by making it joint. I suppose you could move SOPC to Benning, but once again it's pointless to do so.


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## CDG (Jan 21, 2012)

Brian1/75 said:


> SOPC is at Bragg from what I understand. It'd be an expensive and pointless TDY with nothing really to gain by making it joint. I suppose you could move SOPC to Benning, but once again it's pointless to do so.


 
I didn't even think about that. :sick:

The Navy has all the NSW guys go into a prep program at Great Lakes, where Navy Boot Camp is held.  Maybe moving it to Benning wouldn't be a bad idea.  All 18x, 11x, Opt. 40, or REP-63s would go through OSUT, BAC, and SOPC at one place before the SF candidates break off to go to NC for their Selection.  It might cost to move it, but the long-term benefits may be worth it.  The cadre could be a shared burden between SF and Ranger Instructors which would somewhat ease the load on cadre requirements for each branch, and maybe the candidates would benefit from the differing styles.


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## goon175 (Jan 21, 2012)

Well, since all 18x's are already at benning for airborne, all the 18x and opt. 40's could go off to a SOPC or whatever, and then the 18x's ship up to bragg and the opt 40's go on to RASP. And that way the 18x's that don't make it through the prep course, the army doesn't have to waste the money on sending them to bragg, they can just go into the same world wide pool the opt. 40's go into. SFAS and RASP are obviously two very different courses looking for two different types of people, but a prep course can easily be designed to benefit both the SF and Ranger candidate.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 21, 2012)

goon175 said:


> Well, since all 18x's are already at benning for airborne, all the 18x and opt. 40's could go off to a SOPC or whatever, and then the 18x's ship up to bragg and the opt 40's go on to RASP. And that way the 18x's that don't make it through the prep course, the army doesn't have to waste the money on sending them to bragg, they can just go into the same world wide pool the opt. 40's go into. SFAS and RASP are obviously two very different courses looking for two different types of people, but a prep course can easily be designed to benefit both the SF and Ranger candidate.



You sure RASP and SF candidates could sit along together and play nice for a few weeks? Like you said, two diff courses looking for two diff types of people


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## goon175 (Jan 22, 2012)

I'm sure they would handle it just fine


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 22, 2012)

goon175 said:


> I'm sure they would handle it just fine



I'm sure they would, I can just always recall in the Corps the usual personality clashes between those in/going for a job and those on the other side, made for some entertaining times needless to say.


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## dknob (Jan 22, 2012)

If I went through SFAS I could have a more valid answer for you. But SFAS and RASP test a candidate for different traits so I don't know how beneficial a joint course will be.


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## goon175 (Jan 22, 2012)

They obviously should have different selection courses, but as far as a prep course that mainly focus's on PT, Land Nav, etc., I don't think that will be bad. Of course, I don't have any idea if SOPC has more to it than just PT and Land Nav, just going off of "what I heard"...


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 22, 2012)

If the prep courses were to be combined the PT/land nav and such could be run with everyone together and then perhaps later in the day or even later in the course the group broken up into it's two respective groups for focus on history, required knowledge, peer guidance/advising, and whatever else is needed in regards to which selection that group is preparing for. That way you have a combined group of candidates receiving the necessary PT thrasing's and such to whip them into shape, the base knowledge that both selection course have/are needed for either group, and the more focused knowledge and skill teachings that are deemed necessary or desired for that groups selection course.

This could also help build a stronger relationship within the communities of both as those that pass their respective selections would have contacts and friends they had made while in the prep course who are in the other unit, which in itself (despite the unit's having different jobs and training) could establish a more focused and productive channel between respective unit's for a sharing of idea's, comradeship, joint-training and such.


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## Tropicana98 (Jan 22, 2012)

After reading this discussion on the joint prep course do you goon175 or dknob, or any other Ranger, ever see Regiment getting to the point where most guys stay there career like SF? I remember you roughly breaking down what guys decide to do after their 1st or 2nd term is up the number one option being most guys get out. Taking into account the establishment and extension of RASP, Pre-RASP, experimenting with sending more guys to RS first, more "selective" recruiting, do you see staying in Regiment for the full 20 ever becoming the most common occurrence? Or does the optempo,any number of factors really, prevent that from happening?


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## goon175 (Jan 22, 2012)

I don't know that the numbers are much different on the SF side. I seem to remember reading somewhere that alot of guys get out after one or two enlistments on the SF side as well. As you saw by the example I gave in the other thread, quite a few guys do stay in Regiment.

Anyone with a long tab care to weigh in on this?


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## Brill (Jan 22, 2012)

Word is that SOPC grads have good reps for being able to build solid apparatuses able to carry heavy items long distances.


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## dknob (Jan 22, 2012)

Tropicana98 said:


> After reading this discussion on the joint prep course do you goon175 or dknob, or any other Ranger, ever see Regiment getting to the point where most guys stay there career like SF? I remember you roughly breaking down what guys decide to do after their 1st or 2nd term is up the number one option being most guys get out. Taking into account the establishment and extension of RASP, Pre-RASP, experimenting with sending more guys to RS first, more "selective" recruiting, do you see staying in Regiment for the full 20 ever becoming the most common occurrence? Or does the optempo,any number of factors really, prevent that from happening?


I don't think any special selection process will change the 75th retention numbers. They will always be shit. Its the nature of this business.

OPTEMPO has little to do with it, if anything it keeps people in longer. If you go to www.armyranger.com, a lot of those member signatures will say :  "1/75 92-94", "3/75 88 - 89".

Rangers pre 9/11 and post Panama trained and trained for combat that never came. Unless you were those small select few who went to Somalia. Or the ones who went to the Gulf. Why train for combat in an elite light infantry unit if you never get to go kill motherfuckers.

It's just the nature of the beast (lifestyle), that wears people out. Those select few who tough it out in the community in an operational capacity will either A: make it a 20 year career, or B: move up the ladder.

The truth is being in the Regiment is great, and the missions CAN be cool sometimes. But they get redundant. VERY redundant. Hell I'm sure guys in SF get tired of doing FID and JCETs. So both sides tend to get out because frankly they get bored. The problem with the US Special Operations Community.. is the HUGEEEEE gap between SF/75th and the SMU world. In terms of making the "transition".  I mean it is freaking huge. It is not a "just the next step" by any means. Other units around the world.. and I don't mean to stir the hornet's nest here or cause strife - but they don't have that huge gap between them that ours do. The gap between SASR and the Commando Regiments, is not (in my opinion) as big as the gap between SF/75th and CAG. To put it in a numbers perspective - SASR has 3 line squadrons which I assume have a minimum of 50 guys each. So 150 total. The 2nd Commando Regiment, is a battalion sized unit with 4 line companies. Probably another 650 guys. The Australian Army has like 30,000 active dudes. That means that 2.1 percent of those guys are in 2nd CDO, and .5 percent are in the SASR. So anywhere from 2.5 to 3 % of the Australian Army are special ops door kickers. Not a bad statistic. And I also read that 15-20% of candidates are accepted into the SASR, that is roughly the same percentage as the guys who end up in the UK SAS.

CAG selection.. is like 5%-7%. And the majority of candidates who try out are some squared away hooahs from the 75th and SF. It is ridiculously stupid hard to get into that unit. And even then, guys get dropped from the follow on OTC like its nobody's business. So it's not in anyway just "the next step" in an Army soldier's SOF career. Not at all. BASICALLY, what I am trying to say is that 75th and SF who want to continue doing cool shit and are tired of their own careers... they have NO PLACE to go! Most guys in the Rangers and SF look at CAG as one of those almost unattainable goals. So because they don't have anywhere else to go, they get out. If we had some kind of Army unit in between the world of CAG and SF/75th. Then more people would go there and the US Army would retain awesome soldiers. But we don't, and we never will.

*** to give a comparison in the numbers between Australian Army SOF and American Army SOF:
The US Army has 560,000 Active Duty guys. .9 percent are Long tabbers, and .4 percent are 75th.
.02 percent are in CAG. Do you see the discrepancy here in ratio? The actual quantity of troops in the Army doesn't matter. It's about the ratio.


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## goon175 (Jan 22, 2012)

> OPTEMPO has little to do with it, if anything it keeps people in longer. If you go to www.armyranger.com, a lot of those member signatures will say : "1/75 92-94", "3/75 88 - 89".


 
Also, back in those days, the Regiment strictly adhered to Abrams Charter...so guys had to leave, they didn't have a choice in the matter. Where as, today you can stay until you fuck up bad enough to get kicked out, or elect to leave.




> It's just the nature of the beast (lifestyle), that wears people out.


 
I agree completely, it's the reason I am where I am right now, and I'm sure many others as well.

One advantage SF has over the 75th, is that when guys get tired, they have waaaay more instructor and LNO billets available. In the 75th, you either have to leave the Regiment, or compete for one of the highly competitive instructor slots at the ROC. Those are some interesting stats on how other countries conduct business.


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## Brian1/75 (Jan 23, 2012)

I don't know. All the SF guys seem to talk about SWCS tours as if they are a burden. Speaking of the Australian Army, their SOF guys get paid a hell of a lot better. I've also notice all the military forces such as the Brits don't seem to care nearly as much about haircuts, if some dude wants to cuff his sleeves and stupid tedious safety classes nearly as much as ours. To me that's the biggest driving force in guys wanting to get out...tedium in stuff that doesn't matter. It was never the deployments or 12 mile runs or whatever that drove me nuts, it was the stupid crap in between. Having to get in uniform so we could stare at each other in uniform and do nothing, but wait to get off and get out of uniform and many of the other things CSMs and 1SGs seem to value will just never really make sense to me. That and many guys join to just 'been there, done that.' Nothing wrong with that, but once you've done the deed there's not much reason to keep doing it. Doing an airfield seizure for the 5th time can start to become old hat. Some of our guys pop smoke over to SF or even more drastic moves like AFSOC lacking experience or ability to make the jump to a SMU in hopes the grass will be greener, but I think they mostly find it's the same. Even the SMUs aren't golden palaces. They have their own complaints about stupid shit.


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## dknob (Jan 23, 2012)

When Regiment was incredibly awesome - When CSM Birch ran shit.


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## Tropicana98 (Jan 23, 2012)

dknob said:


> OPTEMPO has little to do with it, if anything it keeps people in longer. If you go to www.armyranger.com, a lot of those member signatures will say : "1/75 92-94", "3/75 88 - 89".


 
Yeah I'm a member over there too and indeed it is rare to see anything above 4-6 years in the sig lines. As far as the rest since I have zero ability to speak on it I'll just say thanks for the post a lot of good shit in there and bow out for now and let you guys get back to discussing.


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## goon175 (Jan 23, 2012)

> When CSM Birch ran shit.


 
I have heard nothing but good things about him, wish I could have served under him.


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## CDG (Jan 23, 2012)

dknob said:


> CAG selection.. is like 5%-7%. And the majority of candidates who try out are some squared away hooahs from the 75th and SF. It is ridiculously stupid hard to get into that unit. And even then, guys get dropped from the follow on OTC like its nobody's business. So it's not in anyway just "the next step" in an Army soldier's SOF career. Not at all. BASICALLY, what I am trying to say is that 75th and SF who want to continue doing cool shit and are tired of their own careers... they have NO PLACE to go! Most guys in the Rangers and SF look at CAG as one of those almost unattainable goals. So because they don't have anywhere else to go, they get out. If we had some kind of Army unit in between the world of CAG and SF/75th. Then more people would go there and the US Army would retain awesome soldiers. But we don't, and we never will.
> .


 
Really enoyed your post, thanks for taking the time to explain all that.  As far as CAG Selection goes, what seems to be the difficulty for guys getting in?  Is it physical standards, technical standards (marksmanship etc.), or they just don't 'fit in'? 

What would be your ideal of a go-between unit?


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## dknob (Jan 23, 2012)

CDG said:


> Really enoyed your post, thanks for taking the time to explain all that. As far as CAG Selection goes, what seems to be the difficulty for guys getting in? Is it physical standards, technical standards (marksmanship etc.), or they just don't 'fit in'?
> 
> What would be your ideal of a go-between unit?


 
I can't go to in depth on selection. But it's the physical standards - they are ridiculous. I consider myself a good rucker - but I can't fathom ever coming close to the standards required to pass.

It's not like other courses where it's simply: "DON't QUIT!" and you may make it in. There, if you don't complete the standard then you aren't going anywhere.

As for technical standards, those are tested after selection.


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## dknob (Jan 23, 2012)

CDG said:


> What would be your ideal of a go-between unit?


 
No clue!


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## CDG (Jan 23, 2012)

dknob said:


> I can't go to in depth on selection. But it's the physical standards - they are ridiculous. I consider myself a good rucker - but I can't fathom ever coming close to the standards required to pass.
> 
> It's not like other courses where it's simply: "DON't QUIT!" and you may make it in. There, if you don't complete the standard then you aren't going anywhere.
> 
> As for technical standards, those are tested after selection.


 
Got it.  Definitely was not trying to get details, just an overall idea of why it was so difficult to get in.  I threw in the technical comment because you mentioned that large number of guys got dropped from OTC afterwards.


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## Brian1/75 (Jan 23, 2012)

I'm actually curious why more of our guys don't figure out a way to get those CS jobs. The requirements weren't nearly as hard and they still went through OTC and freefall.


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## dknob (Jan 23, 2012)

Brian1/75 said:


> I'm actually curious why more of our guys don't figure out a way to get those CS jobs. The requirements weren't nearly as hard and they still went through OTC and freefall.


If you mean combat support - there's not many who would be qualified. I think just commo and medics.


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## AWP (Jan 23, 2012)

Brian1/75 said:


> I'm actually curious why more of our guys don't figure out a way to get those CS jobs. The requirements weren't nearly as hard and they still went through OTC and freefall.


 
If you're talking about combat support for a SMU, I don't know how much of that specific element should be in the open, though I do agree with your premise.


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## tigerstr (Jan 23, 2012)

dknob said:


> The truth is being in the Regiment is great, and the missions CAN be cool sometimes. But they get redundant. VERY redundant. Hell I'm sure guys in SF get tired of doing FID and JCETs. *So* *both sides tend to get out because frankly they get bored*. The problem with the US Special Operations Community.. is the HUGEEEEE gap between SF/75th and the SMU world. In terms of making the "transition". I mean it is freaking huge. It is not a "just the next step" by any means. Other units around the world.. and I don't mean to stir the hornet's nest here or cause strife - but they don't have that huge gap between them that ours do. The gap between SASR and the Commando Regiments, is not (in my opinion) as big as the gap between SF/75th and CAG. To put it in a numbers perspective - SASR has 3 line squadrons which I assume have a minimum of 50 guys each. So 150 total. The 2nd Commando Regiment, is a battalion sized unit with 4 line companies. Probably another 650 guys. The Australian Army has like 30,000 active dudes. That means that 2.1 percent of those guys are in 2nd CDO, and .5 percent are in the SASR. So anywhere from 2.5 to 3 % of the Australian Army are special ops door kickers. Not a bad statistic. And I also read that 15-20% of candidates are accepted into the SASR, that is roughly the same percentage as the guys who end up in the UK SAS.
> 
> *CAG selection.. is like 5%-7%*. And the majority of candidates who try out are some squared away hooahs from the 75th and SF. It is ridiculously stupid hard to get into that unit. And even then, guys get dropped from the follow on OTC like its nobody's business. So it's not in anyway just "the next step" in an Army soldier's SOF career. Not at all. BASICALLY, what I am trying to say is that 75th and SF who want to continue doing cool shit and are tired of their own careers... they have NO PLACE to go! Most guys in the Rangers and SF look at CAG as one of those almost unattainable goals. So because they don't have anywhere else to go, they get out. If we had some kind of Army unit in between the world of CAG and SF/75th. Then more people would go there and the US Army would retain awesome soldiers. But we don't, and we never will.
> 
> ...


 
Very interesting post and I understand where you are coming from, but your ratios seem a bit flawed. 

If just 5-7% of people make selection for CAG, (1 in 14 or 20) and you have 0,9% of the big Army in SF plus 0.4% in RGR Regiment (1,3% total), then I don’t see how 0,2% of the Army is in CAG , as this is a 1/6.5 ratio of CAG population to SF/RGR population. 

Anyway, IF it was so, it would be higher than the SASR/ Commando ratio in the Australian Army, (about 1/4), but not that much higher. 

On the other hand, don’t you think that some sub units of SF and RGR Regiment (as an example I would mention CIFs in SF), are in a way somewhere in between the two worlds? (I imagine CIFs are still around). 

I am not trying to refute your point, just discussing it, so that I get your perspective. 

For an outsider looking in, particularly SF seems to have a wealth of diversified training courses/ specialty areas that can be attained during a career, for someone that got tired of doing same-same.


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## Brian1/75 (Jan 23, 2012)

CIF is still around, but I wouldn't call it in between worlds. There's 18x's fresh out of the Q that find their way over there. We also have assignments in HHC that allow for some diversification. A lot of times it seemed a refuge for guys with personality clashes with their platoon though. Once again, not an in between world.


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## dknob (Jan 23, 2012)

tigerstr said:


> Very interesting post and I understand where you are coming from, but your ratios seem a bit flawed.
> 
> If just 5-7% of people make selection for CAG, (1 in 14 or 20) and you have 0,9% of the big Army in SF plus 0.4% in RGR Regiment (1,3% total), then I don’t see how 0,2% of the Army is in CAG , as this is a 1/6.5 ratio of CAG population to SF/RGR population.
> 
> ...


 

I wrote .02% , not 0.2 ;)


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## dknob (Jan 23, 2012)

And to answer your question, I refer you to Brian. His answer is what I would have given. There are different careers WITHIN the 75th/SF world. But they are not the "in-between" that I'm trying to characterize.


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## goon175 (Jan 23, 2012)

> I think just commo and medics.


 
Others as well, even for 11B's, but I digress to Freefalling...no need to talk about it out here.



> We also have assignments in HHC that allow for some diversification.


 
Great for getting a different skill set, but you eventually have to return to take a squad or platoon if you want to keep moving up. So, like Dknob said, not an in-between


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## tigerstr (Jan 23, 2012)

All this math I did... for nothing  Thats what you get when you are trying to read, post and work at the same time...

Thanks Brian and dknob, for your answers. I see what you mean.

Difficult to figure out what this "in between" could be though.

On the other hand its actually good to know that even in the era of expansion and sometimes dropping standards ( as discussed in another thread) some units kept having exremely hard ones.


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## dknob (Jan 23, 2012)

tigerstr said:


> All this math I did... for nothing Thats what you get when you are trying to read, post and work at the same time...
> 
> Thanks Brian and dknob, for your answers. I see what you mean.
> 
> ...


It really just applies to USASOC.

NSWs gap between the SEAL teams and their SMU isn't as big as ours is.


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## Tropicana98 (Jan 23, 2012)

dknob said:


> It really just applies to USASOC.
> 
> NSWs gap between the SEAL teams and their SMU isn't as big as ours is.


 
Any way to expand on this without compromising anything? What would cause their gap to be smaller than 75th/SF and the Army SMU?...Probably the most borderline question ever but hopefully it can be answered.


----------



## goon175 (Jan 23, 2012)

You'll know why when you get to where you wanna go. Don't worry about it for now.


----------



## dknob (Jan 23, 2012)

LOL I plead the fifth.


----------



## Tropicana98 (Jan 23, 2012)

goon175 said:


> You'll know why when you get to where you wanna go. Don't worry about it for now.


 
Roger, reeling it back in.


----------



## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 23, 2012)

Lol, it's interesting to see where this thread which started as a "here's a new book" has progressed :)


----------



## TB1077 (Jan 23, 2012)

I hope Mr. Couch is keeping up with this thread.  He might have some material for future books.


----------



## SeanKM (Jan 24, 2012)

> I don't know. All the SF guys seem to talk about SWCS tours as if they are a burden. Speaking of the Australian Army, their SOF guys get paid a hell of a lot better. I've also notice all the military forces such as the Brits don't seem to care nearly as much about haircuts, if some dude wants to cuff his sleeves and stupid tedious safety classes nearly as much as ours. To me that's the biggest driving force in guys wanting to get out...tedium in stuff that doesn't matter. It was never the deployments or 12 mile runs or whatever that drove me nuts, it was the stupid crap in between. Having to get in uniform so we could stare at each other in uniform and do nothing, but wait to get off and get out of uniform and many of the other things CSMs and 1SGs seem to value will just never really make sense to me. That and many guys join to just 'been there, done that.' Nothing wrong with that, but once you've done the deed there's not much reason to keep doing it. Doing an airfield seizure for the 5th time can start to become old hat. Some of our guys pop smoke over to SF or even more drastic moves like AFSOC lacking experience or *ability to make the jump to a SMU in hopes the grass will be greener, but I think they mostly find it's the same. Even the SMUs aren't golden palaces.* They have their own complaints about stupid shit.


 
I want to thank everyone for sharing their experiences and knowledge so guys like me can watch and learn to be aware and be successful in whatever paths we may take.

With that said... I am really curious to know if...

Rangers make transitions over to intelligence community such as CIA? With combat experiences and specialized training, wouldn't Rangers be great candidates for paramilitary operations?

I apologize if this question is stupid... I'll just shut up.


----------



## CDG (Jan 24, 2012)

Do we still have an intro thread?


----------



## SeanKM (Jan 24, 2012)

Intro is posted sir!

Mistake. Identified and fixed! :nerd:


----------



## SeanKM (Jan 24, 2012)

Understood. Thank you for your reply sir.


----------



## Ravage (Jan 24, 2012)

dknob said:


> NSWs gap between the SEAL teams and their SMU isn't as big as ours is.



Can you elaborate?
Read that there is a number of guy who go from door-kicker to SOF rotor-head, as in the 160th.
That must be soooo cool.


----------



## dknob (Jan 24, 2012)

Ravage said:


> Can you elaborate?
> Read that there is a number of guy who go from door-kicker to SOF rotor-head, as in the 160th.
> That must be soooo cool.


No I can't elaborate.

And I don't know any door kickers who went into the 160th. I'm sure maybe one day some might want to be pilots. But that percentage has to be under 1%. As for an enlisted door kicker going through Green platoon to get a spot as a door gunner for the 160th?? I don't ever see that happening.


----------



## Brian1/75 (Jan 24, 2012)

dknob said:


> No I can't elaborate.
> 
> And I don't know any door kickers who went into the 160th. I'm sure maybe one day some might want to be pilots. But that percentage has to be under 1%. As for an enlisted door kicker going through Green platoon to get a spot as a door gunner for the 160th?? I don't ever see that happening.


I've known a few guys to hop over to flight school via the warrant path. I don't think any are far enough along their career to go to 160th, but I'm sure it's something they are interested in.


----------



## dknob (Jan 24, 2012)

I've known some as well. A buddy from 3/75, his dad was a blackhawk crew member in the 160th killed in training in the 80s. After he got out he decided to go the warrant path.
My buddy should be done with flight school by now. Gotta get an update. And I know his goal is 160th ultimately.
But like I said.. miniscule numbers of guys will actually dedicate the long process involved to get to that point.Especially since the number of pilots in the 160th is astronomically small.
I thought Ravage was referring to enlisted SOF moving to 160th.


----------



## Ravage (Jan 24, 2012)

I know that one guy that used to write on this board was a Team guy, now he drives Ninja Chinooks.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 24, 2012)

I moved the posts related to "SOF to intel agencies" *into a new thread*. Let's keep this thread on the subject of Dick Couch's book, and move any other discussion into the appropriate forum.


----------



## dknob (Jan 24, 2012)

I think I touched that earlier.. that PMOs need Bachelors. If not then you are contracted - such as Chief Carlson and Chris Mueller (RIP).


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## Red Ryder (Jan 30, 2012)

dknob said:


> I don't think any special selection process will change the 75th retention numbers. They will always be shit. Its the nature of this business.
> 
> OPTEMPO has little to do with it, if anything it keeps people in longer. If you go to www.armyranger.com, a lot of those member signatures will say : "1/75 92-94", "3/75 88 - 89".
> 
> ...


 
Not trying to kick a dead horse or get into any classified info but here go's. CAG Selection was originally based off of SAS Selection right? If that's still true then why the low number of candidates passing? Are times for rucksack marches and runs just lower for CAG?


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## goon175 (Jan 30, 2012)

> Not trying to kick a dead horse or get into any classified info


 
you are.


----------



## AWP (Jan 30, 2012)

Ravage said:


> I know that one guy that used to write on this board was a Team guy, now he drives Ninja Chinooks.


 
If it is the same guy we're talking about, we used to be in the same unit. Good dude.



La Roux said:


> Not trying to ...get into any classified info but here go's.


 
You're already wrong. Continuing that post sent you further into the rabbit hole.


----------



## Red Ryder (Jan 30, 2012)

goon175 said:


> you are.


 


Freefalling said:


> You're already wrong. Continuing that post sent you further into the rabbit hole.


 
Roger that. Hindsight's 20/20, it read's like some post on MP.net. Won't happen again.


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## DA SWO (Jan 30, 2012)

There was a little bird pilot who did time in 7th SFG.
His brother was one of the Blackwater Pilots killed in Iraq.


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## Ravage (Jan 31, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> If it is the same guy we're talking about, we used to be in the same unit. Good dude.



We really should get him back here 



SOWT said:


> There was a little bird pilot who did time in 7th SFG.
> His brother was one of the Blackwater Pilots killed in Iraq.



I he's the one I think he is, he actually wrote a book about his exploits with the Night Stalkers and his time in Blackwater.


----------



## CDG (Jan 31, 2012)

Ravage said:


> I he's the one I think he is, he actually wrote a book about his exploits with the Night Stalkers and his time in Blackwater.


 
Sounds like it might be a good read. Do you by chance remember the title?


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 31, 2012)

CDG said:


> Sounds like it might be a good read. Do you by chance remember the title?


 
Found it this morning:

http://www.amazon.com/You-Have-Live...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328020117&sr=1-1


----------



## CDG (Jan 31, 2012)

SOWT said:


> Found it this morning:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/You-Have-Live...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328020117&sr=1-1


 
Thank you. Will put it on my list.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 31, 2012)

SOWT said:


> Found it this morning:
> 
> http://www.amazon.com/You-Have-Live...=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1328020117&sr=1-1



Had seen this one before, had considered to put it on my list, but between college reading, Taliban by Ahmed rashid and the mission, the men, and me by Pete blaber my reading list is pretty full right now. Almost done with Blaber's book though, fantastic read! At least I've got some time before Sua Sponte is available to read.


----------



## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Feb 8, 2012)

Just a update for all, seems the book now has cover art for those interested:

http://www.amazon.com/Sua-Sponte-Fo...TF8&coliid=I3N9NNJMT581XK&colid=22WV5SUBKXJLQ


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## Brian1/75 (Feb 8, 2012)

Ah I see they picked the best Battalion for the cover.


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## Red Ryder (Apr 15, 2012)

Book description has been released. Can't wait to read it.

"Sua Sponte
Latin for “Of Their Own Accord”
The MOTTO OF THE 75TH RANGER REGIMENT

The 75th Ranger Regiment is a unique and distinct culture among the American military establishment. They stand alone, even among our other Special Operations forces, as the most active brigade-sized force in the current Global War on Terrorism. Since 9/11, The Regiment is the only continuously-engaged unit in the Army, and has had forty percent of its number deployed in harm’s way for the last decade. Their mission is unique. Rangers do not patrol, they don’t train allied forces, nor do they engage in routine counterinsurgency duties. They have a single-mission focus; they seek out the enemy and they capture or kill them. It sets Rangers apart as pure, direct-action warriors.

Army Rangers are not born. They are made. The modern 75th Ranger Regiment represents the culmination of 250 years of American soldiering. As the nation’s oldest standing military unit, The Regiment traces its origins to Richard Rogers’ Rangers during the pre-revolutionary French and Indian War, through the likes of Francis Marion and John Mosby, to the five active Ranger battalions of the Second World War, and finally, to the four battalions of the current Ranger regiment engaged in modern combat. Over that period, a standard of professional excellence and the forging of that excellence is distilled in the selection, assessment, and training of today’s Rangers.

Granted unprecedented access to the training of this highly-restricted component of America’s Special Operations Forces in a time of war, retired Navy Captain Dick Couch tells the personal story of the young men who begin this difficult and dangerous journey to become a Ranger. Many will try but only a select few will survive to serve in the 75th ranger regiment. _Sua Sponte_ follows a group of these aspiring young warriors through the crucible that is ranger training and their preparation for direct-action missions in Afghanistan against the Taliban."


----------



## goon175 (Apr 15, 2012)

> They have a single-mission focus; they seek out the enemy and they capture or kill them.


 
I love that quote.


----------



## dknob (Apr 16, 2012)

Brian1/75 said:


> Ah I see they picked the best Battalion for the cover.


 Author didn't want to jeapordize the identities of the rough men of "America's Battalion". So he opted for a 1/75 cover shot.


----------



## JackMurphyRGR (Apr 29, 2012)

Hey Dknob, I was told by a 160th pilot about a Delta guy who went over to fly for them.  He said the dude has burnt in two or three birds in his career, and that was in training!


----------



## goon175 (Jun 22, 2012)

just pre-ordered my copy, amazon says it will be delivered on the 3rd.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jun 22, 2012)

Will get the ebook version when it's released, should be a good read!


----------



## JackMurphyRGR (Jun 23, 2012)

Please let me know if the book is worth reading!


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jun 23, 2012)

Will do!


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## goon175 (Jul 5, 2012)

I just finished Sua Sponte: The Forging of a Moderan American Ranger. It started off slow for me as Mr. Couch covered the history of Rangers in an abbreviated yet thorough review, which for me was all very familiar material. For anyone who is a non-Ranger, it is a good primer on Ranger history and some really great American figures such as Dan Morgan and Francis Marion.
  He covered RASP 1 in a very thorough manner, and was vague where he needed to be. I think the non-Ranger reader will get an unprecedented look at what RASP 1 is like, and the Ranger reader will chuckle to himself while thinking "I know what REALLY happened here...". Mr. Couch was obviously a keen observer and shed an interesting light on the backgrounds of both the candidates and the cadre. For anyone who is an aspiring Ranger...this is a must read. I would have killed for an opportunity to read a book like this before I went through.  I noticed he was particularly vague in his description of Cole Range, which I guess one could say is the 75th's version of "Hell Week" or "Team Week". For you prospective Rangers out there, just know that whatever you read in this book about Cole Range, it sucks about 10 times more than what is described. Also, every RASP class is different, it is an ever-evolving course, so don't take the training events described as gospel, but rather focus on the principles taught and the personality type the Regiment is looking for, as that won't change. The only dry part of this section of the book for me was the in depth descriptions of things I have done a hundred times before, but these descriptions will probably very interesting for the non-SOF types.
  The RASP 2 section was very interesting for me, as I have never really known outside of generalities what goes on in this version of RASP. He had to be vague in some areas to protect the course, especially in reference to the board process and their version of Cole Range. I have a pretty good idea of how the course is run now, which I hadn't prior to reading the book.
  He also covers SURT and Ranger School, and that section was brief and not really the focus of the book. Again, for the non-Ranger I am sure it will be very interesting.
  He did a great job of capturing "the essence" of a Ranger training cycle. I say "the essence" because he had to leave a lot of details out, but that won't be immediately apparent to the reader unless you come from a SOF background. He mainly focused on the major training that takes place, and does a good job of describing it as well as explaining the purpose of the training.
  Overall it was a great read, whether you are a Ranger or not. I would say it is a "must read" for any aspiring Ranger. I have to say it feels good to read something like this, it seems "our story" has finally been told. So many misconceptions fly around about the 75th, and this clears a lot of them up. He does a good job of explaining what we do: Killing or capturing the enemy. It is my opinion that the typical Ranger strike force package is the most professional, lethal, and effective direct action raid force in the SOF arsenal, with only one exception that resides up at ft. bragg (and consists of a majority of rangers anyway) and Mr. Couch does a good job of showing that. He also does a good sales pitch for us at the end, haha! I will personally be reccomending this book to my family so that they can better understand the great things that my younger brother is doing.


----------



## Ravage (Jul 5, 2012)

A lot of our guys are now going through Ranger cadre directed trainig, as we are forging our own Light Infantry/Direct Action unit.
This is a fantastic review indeed. I will recomend this book to a few guy that I know. They'll definitely need it. Thank you :)


----------



## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jul 5, 2012)

goon175 said:


> I just finished Sua Sponte: The Forging of a Moderan American Ranger. It started off slow for me as Mr. Couch covered the history of Rangers in an abbreviated yet thorough review, which for me was all very familiar material. For anyone who is a non-Ranger, it is a good primer on Ranger history and some really great American figures such as Dan Morgan and Francis Marion.
> He covered RASP 1 in a very thorough manner, and was vague where he needed to be. I think the non-Ranger reader will get an unprecedented look at what RASP 1 is like, and the Ranger reader will chuckle to himself while thinking "I know what REALLY happened here...". Mr. Couch was obviously a keen observer and shed an interesting light on the backgrounds of both the candidates and the cadre. For anyone who is an aspiring Ranger...this is a must read. I would have killed for an opportunity to read a book like this before I went through. I noticed he was particularly vague in his description of Cole Range, which I guess one could say is the 75th's version of "Hell Week" or "Team Week". For you prospective Rangers out there, just know that whatever you read in this book about Cole Range, it sucks about 10 times more than what is described. Also, every RASP class is different, it is an ever-evolving course, so don't take the training events described as gospel, but rather focus on the principles taught and the personality type the Regiment is looking for, as that won't change. The only dry part of this section of the book for me was the in depth descriptions of things I have done a hundred times before, but these descriptions will probably very interesting for the non-SOF types.
> The RASP 2 section was very interesting for me, as I have never really known outside of generalities what goes on in this version of RASP. He had to be vague in some areas to protect the course, especially in reference to the board process and their version of Cole Range. I have a pretty good idea of how the course is run now, which I hadn't prior to reading the book.
> He also covers SURT and Ranger School, and that section was brief and not really the focus of the book. Again, for the non-Ranger I am sure it will be very interesting.
> ...


 

Just getting into it myself, agree it's a bit slow going at first but starting to pick up more steam! Interesting read regardless so far!


----------



## Brill (Jul 5, 2012)

goon175 said:


> I just finished Sua Sponte: The Forging of a Moderan American Ranger.


 
If you STRAPP it, I'm in.


----------



## goon175 (Jul 5, 2012)

I've already told my dad I would send it to him next, I'll try to get it to you after he is done!


----------



## goon175 (Jul 5, 2012)

So one thing I thought that was really interesting was his break down of the demographic of the RASP class he followed. Below is the beginning demographic, and the demographic of those that graduated:

Beginning:

159 soldiers at start of class
4 already have a Ranger Tab, 1 of which was previously in the 75th.
105 infantryman
14 combat medics
6 forward observers
5 radio operators
4 communications specialists
3 cooks
2 intel analysts
1 truck driver
1 human resources spc.
1 cbrn spc.
1 chaplains assistant
17 are recycles from a previous class
Height ranged from 5'1" to 6'6"
youngest was 18 and oldest was 40
the lightest was 128, the heaviest was 235
14 are married
16 have a college degree, and 3x that have some college under their belt
4 naturalized citizens
12 African Americans
108 are initial entry soldiers
This is the demographic of those who graduated:

39 total graduated, to include three phase 2 inserts
4 college graduates
5 are married
1 naturalized citizen
1  African American
32 infantryman
4 medics
2 commo guys
1 forward observer
one 18 y/o
2 E-5 Sergeants
Top PT score on the final PT test: 18 pull ups, 98 sit ups, 87 push ups, 11:20 2 mile. 8 scored over 300.


----------



## dknob (Jul 6, 2012)

1 out of 12 African Americans?? 

interesting breakdown though. Im going during lunch to pick it up from Borders.

Now important question - are there cool pictures?


----------



## Ravage (Jul 6, 2012)

dknob said:


> Now important question - are there cool pictures?


 
Pfft important? Cool pix are ESSENTIAL!


----------



## goon175 (Jul 6, 2012)

Pics...ehh...not really...not in my opinion anyway.


----------



## DasBoot (Jul 6, 2012)

dknob said:


> 1 out of 12 African Americans??
> 
> interesting breakdown though. Im going during lunch to pick it up from Borders.
> 
> Now important question - are there cool pictures?


Even more important question- there's still a Borders open?


----------



## dknob (Jul 6, 2012)

DasBoot said:


> Even more important question- there's still a Borders open?


 well shit there should be one down the street..been a while since ive been


----------



## Brill (Jul 6, 2012)

goon175 said:


> So one thing I thought that was really interesting was his break down of the demographic of the RASP class he followed. Below is the beginning demographic, and the demographic of those that graduated:
> 
> Beginning:
> 
> ...


 
40 yr old E-5?  Damn smokey!


----------



## goon175 (Jul 6, 2012)

The 40 y/0 wasn't an E-5


----------



## reed11b (Jul 9, 2012)

Did say what the oldest that passed was?
Reed


----------



## goon175 (Jul 9, 2012)

I don't believe he specifically said, but I could be mistaken.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jul 9, 2012)

I keep getting busy/distracted with other things that keep me from sitting down and reading this book damn it! Summer college courses are rough


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## HoosierAnnie (Jul 9, 2012)

Damn, according to the online tracking tool, my copy was delivered at mi casa Sat about noon-thirty. Ummmm no can find. So tomorrow its gonna be Hello UPS, we have a problem


----------



## OppressorsBeware (Jul 18, 2012)

You can also download the book from amazon as well for pretty cheap and read it on your smartphone/tablet/ereader/computer.


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## Flagg (Jul 19, 2012)

OppressorsBeware said:


> You can also download the book from amazon as well for pretty cheap and read it on your smartphone/tablet/ereader/computer.


 
Is Sua Sponte available on Kindle?

It looks like it's listed, but without a price or ability to download?

http://www.amazon.com/kindle/dp/B0072O02XW/ref=rdr_kindle_ext_eos_detail

I'll have to pick up a hard copy when I'm back in the US next month.


----------



## AWP (Jul 19, 2012)

Flagg said:


> Is Sua Sponte available on Kindle?
> 
> It looks like it's listed, but without a price or ability to download?
> 
> ...


 
Flagg,
Please provide an Intro in the correct subforum before posting again.
Thank you.


----------



## Flagg (Jul 19, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Flagg,
> Please provide an Intro in the correct subforum before posting again.
> Thank you.


 
Done.

My apologies, thanks for the feedback.


----------



## dmcgill (Nov 17, 2012)

Finished reading this book on the trip up to the MWTC in Bridgeport this year. Did anyone else find that it painted a rather unbecoming picture of Ranger Regiment training?


----------



## Worldweaver (Nov 17, 2012)

dmcgill said:


> Finished reading this book on the trip up to the MWTC in Bridgeport this year. Did anyone else find that it painted a rather unbecoming picture of Ranger Regiment training?


 
Interesting.  Any particular reason?


----------



## goon175 (Nov 17, 2012)

There was a lot of stuff left out, but I wouldn't say it was painted "unbecoming". I'm also interested in how you came to this conclusion?


----------



## dmcgill (Nov 18, 2012)

Perhaps you're right that wasn't the correct word. Maybe unflattering?

I remember there were more than a few excerpts in it that seemed ludicrous...like the initial ruck march, 6 miles, in PT gear, and with a preposterously light (I think it was 35 pounds) ruck along flat roads, with a plastic weapon. As I recall more than one of these ruch marches in training were in PT gear as well? As far as that goes I was just surprised to say the least. Fresh recruits in Marine Corps boot camp are expected to do, on their first hike, 5 miles in full cammies w/flak and kevlar, 40 pound ruck, and M16. The final hike recruits do is 10 miles with 60 pounds (everything they've been issued is in the ruck) and M16. And there is also steep hills, sand, and knee-high ocean tides to deal with...if you're a west-coast Marine. Of course in Infantry school it gets worse, I don't know what they do in recon...I'm sure it's retarded.  Anyway, just thought it was an interesting comparison. Also, I expected the candidates to have better PT scores when they tested out before going to their battalion. Do you think their rather weak performance was from just being wore out from the course?

I want to put out there that I'm in no way trying to slam the Regiment or anything like that, I know exactly what you guys do and the shape you're in...which is why I just thought to ask.


----------



## Worldweaver (Nov 18, 2012)

haha, seriously dude...that's what you got out of the book?


----------



## dmcgill (Nov 18, 2012)

Worldweaver said:


> haha, seriously dude...that's what you got out of the book?


 
Nope, I learned more than I knew and what has been published about RASP. It was informative.


----------



## goon175 (Nov 18, 2012)

> initial ruck march, 6 miles, in PT gear, and with a preposterously light (I think it was 35 pounds) ruck along flat roads, with a plastic weapon.


 
35lbs plus food and water, they usually come out to 45-50 lbs. I don't know if you have ever been to Ft. Benning, but most of the terrain is not flat, but rolling. Also, it's basically a run. I wouldn't compare it to a normal ruck march. You have to keep in mind that Mr. Couch had to tell the story with out giving away every single little detail about the training. It is a challenging course, and the selection process isn't over just because you graduate. They aren't looking for the same guy the USMC is, and they aren't looking for the same guy Recon is. They select the guys that they feel have the potential to be succesful in the 75th. Based on the success of the 75th thus far, I would say they are doing a pretty good job (but, as anyone who has been in batt. knows, there is always room for improvement).


----------



## Ranger Psych (Nov 18, 2012)

Plastic weapon also equals rubber duck, which outweighs your issued M-4 by a couple pounds and has the added inherent feature of not needing an arms room to sign out whenever some douche pissed off the night TAC and you end up doing rifle PT till first call or 5 people quit, whichever comes first.

But that never happens, so it's not an issue.


----------



## Worldweaver (Nov 18, 2012)

My entire OSUT class did a 12+ miler with all our gear also, many guys that went from that class to RIP and failed.  Putting a ruck on your back and walking isn't the most difficult thing in the world, and a rucksack with legs isn't necessarily a desirable trait.  I just find it humorous that's what you picked out of the book.


----------



## dmcgill (Nov 18, 2012)

goon175 said:


> 35lbs plus food and water, they usually come out to 45-50 lbs. I don't know if you have ever been to Ft. Benning, but most of the terrain is not flat, but rolling. Also, it's basically a run. I wouldn't compare it to a normal ruck march. You have to keep in mind that Mr. Couch had to tell the story with out giving away every single little detail about the training. It is a challenging course, and the selection process isn't over just because you graduate. They aren't looking for the same guy the USMC is, and they aren't looking for the same guy Recon is. They select the guys that they feel have the potential to be succesful in the 75th. Based on the success of the 75th thus far, I would say they are doing a pretty good job (but, as anyone who has been in batt. knows, there is always room for improvement).


 
Very good post, thanks.


----------



## California.Kid (Nov 19, 2012)

When I went through RASP our 6 miler was done in acu top and bottom, FLC with two 1 quart canteens full, the 2 quart canteen slung over your shoulder, also full, and your rubber duck. The rucks weighed around 45-50 dry before food and water. We didnt really pack for a target weight it was whatever was on the packing list we had to have in our ruck and the cadre chose candidates at random to dump their rucks afterword. The pace was also not a standard ruck pace. The majority of us were 11Bs that had been no strangers to rucking in Infantry OSUT and the 6 miler was a smoker. The majority of the time all of us were jogging/running/shuffling to keep up the pace.


----------



## Brian1/75 (Nov 20, 2012)

Yeah the 6 miler is a run. At times it felt like a balls out sprint. Mine was personally around Lawson, so it was indeed flat and not the rolling hills we did for the 8 miler and 12 miler. The 6 miler is conceived as a warm-up. Many of us hadn't rucked in some time. Personally, I had a harder time keeping up with the 6 miler at times when old Pulliot or Mullinax was trying to break guys off than the 12 mile forced march(which I think should be standard rather than a release) we did later. That was no joke either though. It hurt. We actually had a guy get a heat stroke(Aug-Sept) on our 6-miler if that means anything to you. From what I understood he was going to get chaptered.


----------



## California.Kid (Nov 22, 2012)

Yeah, August and September on Ft Benning is no joke.  We had two guys go down on the 6 miler. Both ended up being dropped...one of them supposedly had a 106 temp and his kidneys started failing or something crazy like that. The 8 miler was crazier as far as the heat was concerned...for some god awful reason we stepped off at noon for that death march.


----------



## Tropicana98 (Nov 22, 2012)

California.Kid said:


> When I went through RASP our 6 miler was done in acu top and bottom, FLC with two 1 quart canteens full, the 2 quart canteen slung over your shoulder, also full, and your rubber duck. The rucks weighed around 45-50 dry before food and water. We didnt really pack for a target weight it was whatever was on the packing list we had to have in our ruck and the cadre chose candidates at random to dump their rucks afterword. The pace was also not a standard ruck pace. The majority of us were 11Bs that had been no strangers to rucking in Infantry OSUT and the 6 miler was a smoker. The majority of the time all of us were jogging/running/shuffling to keep up the pace.


 
This^^^^^^^^. The only difference is the 2 quart is in our ruck now instead of on.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Nov 24, 2012)

California.Kid said:


> Yeah, August and September on Ft Benning is no joke. We had two guys go down on the 6 miler. Both ended up being dropped...one of them supposedly had a 106 temp and his kidneys started failing or something crazy like that. The 8 miler was crazier as far as the heat was concerned...for some god awful reason we stepped off at noon for that death march.


 
Always rough to see that happen. Had a unseasonably warm day out at Pendleton when I was Regimental duty officer for 1st Mar Reg, and doing rounds came up to the BAS to find a mass casualty scene. A company commander with 2/1 decided to ruck his Marines back from the field. Had at least one bad sprained ankle, three heat exhaustion's, and one guy who had heat stroke and all sorts of internal damage. Don't care how well you hydrate or how bad ass you are, that shit can hit anyone hard and send em down even harder on a hot day.


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## abn_rngr (Dec 23, 2012)

dmcgill said:


> Perhaps you're right that wasn't the correct word. Maybe unflattering?
> 
> I remember there were more than a few excerpts in it that seemed ludicrous...like the initial ruck march, 6 miles, in PT gear, and with a preposterously light (I think it was 35 pounds) ruck along flat roads, with a plastic weapon. As I recall more than one of these ruch marches in training were in PT gear as well? As far as that goes I was just surprised to say the least. Fresh recruits in Marine Corps boot camp are expected to do, on their first hike, 5 miles in full cammies w/flak and kevlar, 40 pound ruck, and M16. The final hike recruits do is 10 miles with 60 pounds (everything they've been issued is in the ruck) and M16. And there is also steep hills, sand, and knee-high ocean tides to deal with...if you're a west-coast Marine. Of course in Infantry school it gets worse, I don't know what they do in recon...I'm sure it's retarded. Anyway, just thought it was an interesting comparison. Also, I expected the candidates to have better PT scores when they tested out before going to their battalion. Do you think their rather weak performance was from just being wore out from the course?
> 
> I want to put out there that I'm in no way trying to slam the Regiment or anything like that, I know exactly what you guys do and the shape you're in...which is why I just thought to ask.


 
The Marine standard for initial entry troops is exactly the same as the Army's with a 2.5 mile/hour pace.  Yes, it is.  Standards come out of the same manual.  The rucks at RIP, save for the final 12 miler, are speed marches at 5+ mile/hour pace.  The final 12 miler is 4 miles/hour.


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## OppressorsBeware (Dec 23, 2012)

I remember the road march being no joke. They held it only a few days into the course with no warm up marches and we carried the dry packing list (which came to about 40 pounds or so to ensure the 35 pound standard was met) plus an exorbitant amount of water and some MREs. We woke up extremely early and moved out to the mini O course, got smoked during the layout for various infractions, then they bused us out to a dark road and got us in formation and on the go with little delay. If you fell more than an arm's reach from the guy in front of you or talked or basically did anything aside from look forward and walk you got pulled from the formation to try your luck at the end of the line where the accordion effect was the most pronounced. We finished well before the standard time requirement of 3 hours and 84 candidates didn't make it. Only 14 retried the march and all of them passed. Maybe I was just younger then, or maybe I'm just romanticizing, but I remember it was made to be a challenge worth respecting.


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## NatecGregory (Mar 14, 2013)

i may be a little late on this but im reading that book right now. it is amazing. as for the information it seems as if its accurate, but i cant say for sure due to lack of experience.


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## kenny (Jun 14, 2016)

In Sua Sponte Couch states that “Until the beginning of 2010, those entering the Army on Ranger contracts constituted a significant number of each RASP class.  Since then, the number of these offered new recruits has been drastically reduced.  In a review of its recruiting and training methodology, the Regiment decided that it would reduce those guarantees of Ranger training for new enlistees and *focus on looking for promising candidates in OSUT and other BCT/AIT venues.* This places the responsibility and burden of finding good men for the Regiment on Ranger recruiters, rather than leaving it to the Army recruiting stations across the country.” This is probably old news to the Rangers on this forum.  I am aware of some graduation rate controversy from 2012, and have seen some argue that it's because Pre-RASP is better while others disagree.  Could this "focus on looking for promising candidates in OSUT and other BCT/AIT venues" be a legitimate explanation for higher graduation rates?  I think it would, but was curious if anyone has any take on this.


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## RUBSUMLOTION (Jun 15, 2016)

Of the few people I know that picked up a slot for RASP in Airborne, only 1 failed. He actually would have made it through easily but he was dropped for eating a protein bar that Cadre did not give us. Most guys I know that picked up contracts, ended up making through.

Pre RASP really isn't much a of a program. It's just a hold till a new RASP class starts. There isn't really any training, definitely no PT improvement. Pre RASP is just more time given to someone to mess up and be dropped/quit. Before my class started we had a health and welfare check. In PRE RASP/RASP no food/supplements can be in the barracks. So they did this check about a week before the class started and they dropped about 25 people. So I guess Pre RASP works by getting more motivated candidates to RASP.

We graduated 94 by the way.


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## Marine0311 (Jun 15, 2016)

RUBSUMLOTION said:


> Of the few people I know that picked up a slot for RASP in Airborne, only 1 failed. He actually would have made it through easily but he was dropped for eating a protein bar that Cadre did not give us. Most guys I know that picked up contracts, ended up making through.
> 
> Pre RASP really isn't much a of a program. It's just a hold till a new RASP class starts. There isn't really any training, definitely no PT improvement. Pre RASP is just more time given to someone to mess up and be dropped/quit. Before my class started we had a health and welfare check. In PRE RASP/RASP no food/supplements can be in the barracks. So they did this check about a week before the class started and they dropped about 25 people. So I guess Pre RASP works by getting more motivated candidates to RASP.
> 
> We graduated 94 by the way.



I always thought that was a prep for RASP?


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## kenny (Jun 15, 2016)

RUBSUMLOTION said:


> Of the few people I know that picked up a slot for RASP in Airborne, only 1 failed. He actually would have made it through easily but he was dropped for eating a protein bar that Cadre did not give us. Most guys I know that picked up contracts, ended up making through.
> 
> Pre RASP really isn't much a of a program. It's just a hold till a new RASP class starts. There isn't really any training, definitely no PT improvement. Pre RASP is just more time given to someone to mess up and be dropped/quit. Before my class started we had a health and welfare check. In PRE RASP/RASP no food/supplements can be in the barracks. So they did this check about a week before the class started and they dropped about 25 people. So I guess Pre RASP works by getting more motivated candidates to RASP.
> 
> We graduated 94 by the way.



This information is much much appreciated.


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## RUBSUMLOTION (Jun 15, 2016)

No. It's just hold. The guys literally sit around all day and might be tasked for details every now and then. Prepping for RASP is on the individual.


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## kenny (Jun 15, 2016)

Just out of curiosity, how many started the class after those 25 got kicked out in Pre-RASP?


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## RUBSUMLOTION (Jun 15, 2016)

165. Theyll just pull the next 25 guys from pre rasp. First come, first serve.


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