# The Israel / Palestine Thread



## 757 (Feb 12, 2018)

Serenity said:


> In my opinion this is a blinkered statement; a one sided view that ignores any wrongdoing by the Israelis.  How the Israel government is treating the Palestinians is unethical and illegal.  I assume you know this and I’m just stating the obvious.  Or maybe you deny this, in which case, there’s no arguing with you.  I respect that you would have your reasons and that you come from a place of great experience, but I’ll continue to disagree nonetheless.
> 
> If the Israelis were offering to build a desalination plant for free, and to a schedule that would make a difference, then I could see an argument for the lack of pragmatism.  But really, the South African leadership involved just sound hopelessly unprepared, so it matters not who offers to sell them the technology they need.  They probably would have ended in the same place.  There’s nothing to be gained in adding hypocrisy to weaken their BDS position.  I feel the argument of Israeli tech is a pro-Israeli narrative that is unhelpful and the wrong focal point.
> 
> ...



*- Mod Edit -*

*Please read post #2 from Mara below.  He started this thread and lays out the ground rules.  I moved @757 's post from the other discussion to this thread because his observations are very solid and should be part of any conversation on the topic.*

*- Rah -
________________________________________*

  I don’t typically say anything in these forums, preferring to observe and learn what I can. However, having been to Israel five times in my life and considering my current profession deals almost exclusively with international law (law clerk), I must object to your statement concerning Israel doing anything “illegal.” Eugene Kontorovich is a professor at Northwestern who deals extensively about this issue from a legal standpoint. The link below is a brief lecture regarding the subject.






  That being said, seeing human beings suffer should never be easy and I hope the first part of my comment didn't suggest that I was callous toward their plight. I’ve traveled to the West Bank and talked with Palestinians, people who have hopes and dreams just like us. My dad remembers being able to walk through Gaza years before the Israeli’s forcibly removed their own citizens in an effort to create two states for two people. Sadly, the Palestinians democratically elected Hamas and have suffered extensively as a result.

  Full disclosure: I am pro two-state solution.

  Just my .02


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## Marauder06 (Feb 12, 2018)

Israel/Palestine is one of a handful of topics that regularly causes people to lose their minds when they're discussing, but we're going to give it a shot based on the level of interest displayed in the "South Africa" thread.

Ground rules:  this thread is for purposes of discussing issues directly related to the conflict in Israel and the Palestinian Territories.  If you can't have rational, logical discussions related to this topic, stay out of this thread.  Avoid sweeping generalizations.  Focus on the arguments and don't make things personal.  

...and if you're not well-informed about this subject, then you should probably be asking questions instead of making statements.  Making statements about things you don't know a lot about is a sure way to end up getting embarrassed on this site.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 12, 2018)

Here's a primer to start of the discussion.  It's literally only Wikipedia-deep but contains some interesting background.

Additionally, I know there are members who have spent time on the ground in Israel, Palestine, or one of the surrounding nations who might have some useful things to add.


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## CDG (Feb 12, 2018)

Israel has certainly utilized tactics that some/many may consider brutal and/or unnecessary.  However, when you are a country of that size, surrounded on all sides by enemies, what other tact should you adopt?  Would the "Neville Chamberlain" bring about results?  Sure, it would bring a semblance of peace.  That is, if you consider Israel being completely wiped out to be a viable path to a tenuous peace amongst Arab ethnicities who likely would be engaged in constant war with each other were it not for the common unity of effort provided by the existence of a Jewish state.  Israel does what it needs to in order to survive, and it doesn't get bogged down in how people feel about it.  Particularly people who have never lived under the pressure the Israelis live under.  I think it's laughably ignorant to argue that Israel has any other choice but to conduct itself in the way it has since 1948.  The Palestinians are among the world's best at playing the victim card and pretending they are innocent in this, but they have brought it all on themselves. I personally do not believe a two-state solution is viable in the long term.  So we are left with the option of continuing to support Israel, or taking the Michael Scheuer advocated approach of leaving them to fend for themselves.  The religious right in the USA has always made strong arguments for supporting Israel based on biblical history.  I don't agree with using religion as a justification for anything, but in this case I believe the ends help justify the means.  I think continuing to insure the existence of Israel is in our national security interests, and I could care less what happens to the Palestinians. Some may view that as cold, or lacking empathy, and you would be correct.  I just don't have enough fucks to give to waste them on the Palestinians, particularly when they bring nothing to the table.


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## Gunz (Feb 12, 2018)

I've never been to Israel, but I've been a lifelong student of Israel and its wars and have spoken twice to Netanyahu on the phone...including a conversation in 1991 which was rudely interrupted by a scud missile attack. The ironic thing was that the shortwave radio in our office in Tampa was tuned to Radio Tel Aviv and he heard the incoming missile warning from our radio through my phone...before the sirens went off in T.A.! He had to excuse himself to go don a gas mask.

Anecdotes aside, I agree with what @CDG has written. Israel, in years past, surrounded, vastly outnumbered by hostile states massively supported with arms from the USSR (Syria & Egypt, specifically); Countries when not in actual war with Israel, aided, abetted and gave safe haven to Palestinian terrorists who made it standard practice to kill and maim innocents, soft targets. Under those circumstances, with that kind of power arrayed against you, swift and punishing retaliation is called for.


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## AWP (Feb 12, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> I've never been to Israel, but I've been a lifelong student of Israel and its wars and have spoken twice to Netanyahu on the phone...including an interview in 1991 which was rudely interrupted by a scud missile attack. The ironic thing was that the shortwave radio in our office in Tampa was tuned to Radio Tel Aviv and he heard the incoming missile warning from our radio through my phone...before the sirens went off in T.A.! He had to excuse himself to go don a gas mask.



Of all your anecdotes, this is a Top Three contender. 
---
I fully support Israel, but the one thing that will never sit right with me is the USS Liberty attack. That whole thing stinks.


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## CDG (Feb 12, 2018)

AWP said:


> Of all your anecdotes, this is a Top Three contender.
> ---
> I fully support Israel, but the one thing that will never sit right with me is the USS Liberty attack. That whole thing stinks.



The Liberty attack is one of those incidents that we will likely never know the truth about.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 12, 2018)

CDG said:


> The Liberty attack is one of those incidents that we will likely never know the truth about.



I will admit to being ignorant of this event.  Not anymore...sheesh.
'But sir, its an American ship.' 'Never mind, hit her!' When Israel attacked USS Liberty


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## CQB (Feb 13, 2018)

Israel must be the most realist of states in an international context. If you didn’t catch @757s post in the other thread, do yourself a favour.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 13, 2018)

CQB said:


> If you didn’t catch @757s post in the other thread, do yourself a favour.



Good call, I moved it over here.  Top of the page.


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## Gunz (Feb 13, 2018)

Not defending by any means the Liberty affair. Israel's engaged in a number of activities most Western nations would consider illegal, aggressive and in violation of nation/state sovereignty...and I would point specifically to Mossad _Kidon_ operations in Europe, the ME and elsewhere. I don't think anybody would ever consider Israel as an "innocent" player. But there's dirt under everybody's carpet. _Especially_ in the ME.


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## Serenity (Feb 13, 2018)

Okay, previous thread locked. So I’ll continue here.  I’ve been busy at work, so haven’t gotten back to this.  I probably won’t sufficiently respond to standard here anyway.  I simply don’t have the energy to.  You mods can berate, ban or give me that Marine Chop thingy, but it makes no difference.  And for the record, I didn’t feel destroyed (unless you were talking about my work week so far) or embarrassed.  

So on the matter of sweeping statements, that was my problem with the statement Palestinians being their own number#1 oppressors.  It was sweepingly unfair to me.  I was wrong to use the term blinkered and it’s just generally the wrong way to express my sentiments.  But to me, it represented exactly what CDG stated above.  We all know this view.  He doesn’t care as indicated by himself. So why even discuss?  But it’s not for me to assume what @Marauder06 thinks.

I was interested in learning of BDS in the SA thread.  I did not know about this, so call me ignorant as much as you like.  I don’t care, although, I did ask others I know who actually keep up with news and they weren’t aware of it either.  Even with the Cape Town water crisis, I actually noted how news.com.au articles did not mention it. Interesting how the Australian articles didn’t make a fuss about BDS at all as far as I saw.

I don’t follow the Palestinian situation obsessively.  To be honest, I hate going back in history and reading about the grievances on either side.  In the past, when the Palestinians do get onto the news, I would watch multiple channels and note the differences in coverage, I remember watching a documentary on the appalling conditions in Gaza, and I would also speak to my friend to see how he’s feeling.  I’ve known him for over a decade and we do not make this our topic of choice.  But when we do talk, I can appreciate how he feels about the Palestinians’ lack of a State, and how poorly the media covers a Palestinian-Israeli conflict from their point of view.  When you have it pointed out to you, you start to notice the bias in the captions, the way a situation is presented, and it comes down to the idea that in a lot of mainstream news, the value of a Palestinian life felt less that that of an Israeli.  That’s just my assessment.  During the 2014 Gaza War that was covered in the news, the number killed according to wiki was:

2,205 Palestinians (including at least 1,483 civilians) 
71 Israelis (including 66 soldiers)
1 foreign national in Israel
I remember watching the coverage then, and thinking how the world didn’t really care.   How I wished more people protested loudly.  And then one day I walked passed this little sign hanging limply off a barrier in protest.  That was it.  How very sad.  

I do feel this might be a result of how Palestinians might fear  protesting too loudly and too publicly and drawing unwanted attention.  Since then, it has stuck with me how little sympathy the Palestinian’s get.  I hope we start seeing more change as other countries take a lead and replace the US.  So I do like reading these articles Abbas tells India PM he seeks multi-country peace mediation

@757s vid I’ve not watched,  but I will.  It’s just too long for now. 

It is nice to see SS has started this thread.  I’m really not so much about arguing and rehashing about the events leading to the current situation, I feel all those discussions are about finding reasons for not getting along.  These topics don’t interest me, if I’m honest.  The current events definitely so and anything that might remind people that the Palestinians need help too.


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## Serenity (Feb 13, 2018)

Oh crap...that’s a tl;dr post.  I was rambling.  But honestly, I don’t really care if it fits whatever criteria was set.  I was just finishing from my previous thought process.  I assume I will now get some lecture on Thread lock etiquette.  It’s now 3.27 am, I need to get to sleep after I finish one more email! 

I’ll go back to lurking.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 13, 2018)

Serenity said:


> Okay, previous thread locked. So I’ll continue here. I’ve been busy at work, so haven’t gotten back to this. I probably won’t sufficiently respond to standard here anyway. I simply don’t have the energy to. You mods can berate, ban or give me that Marine Chop thingy, but it makes no difference. And for the record, I didn’t feel destroyed (unless you were talking about my work week so far) or embarrassed.



You have already been asked (multiple times) not to respond in these threads with "poor me, nobody loves me" passive aggressive comments; so you begin your response with a paragraph of them?

Comments like this are so disrespectful to the staff and the board overall.  


Serenity said:


> Oh crap...that’s a tl;dr post. I was rambling. But honestly, I don’t really care if it fits whatever criteria was set. I was just finishing from my previous thought process. I assume I will now get some lecture on Thread lock etiquette. It’s now 3.27 am, I need to get to sleep after I finish one more email!
> 
> I’ll go back to lurking.



*You are restricted from posting in this thread for 48 hours.*


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## 757 (Feb 13, 2018)

I am glad I could add something useful to this discussion. I will attempt to continue to do so while respecting the complexity of the situation.

  The last time I was in Israel, I was there to attend a counter-terrorism conference at the Interdisciplinary Center (IDC) in Herzliya. That conference was eye-opening, and I strongly encourage anyone who has even a cursory interest in the subject to look into the school. The conference reinforced some things I already knew, introduced some concepts that I was unfamiliar with, and asked some questions I was unprepared to answer.

  “Peace will come when the Palestinians love their children more than they hate the Israelis.” –A good Israeli friend of mine.

  That same friend was a tank commander in the IDF. One night he was stationed along the Gaza border. He got a call that three individuals were heading toward the Israeli fence (the border between Gaza and Israel proper). Through his night vision he could make out that two had weapons and all three were carrying bags, most likely full of something destructive. Finally they entered the Israeli side of the fence and began to dig along the dirt road used by IDF patrol vehicles. A short time later, the machine guns of two tanks opened fire killing all three. The following day the bodies were recovered with materials to create at least one IED, maybe more. The oldest was most likely no older than 18 and the youngest possibly as young as 12.
  Why did those teenagers cross the border hoping to kill/maim Israelis? Maybe they were taught to hate the Israelis and simply wanted to. Sadly, most likely their parents or loved ones were threatened by Hamas. Hamas intentionally places civilians around military targets. The article below contains videos from non-Israeli sources during the most recent conflict within Gaza relating to the topic of human shields. Foreign journalists reveal Hamas false front

  I have written a lot and out of respect for those reading this I will conclude this segment by saying two things. 1) The rank and file Palestinian citizen are the true losers in this conflict. Israel takes great strides to defend its citizens whereas Hamas threatens or puts its citizens directly in harm’s way. 2) I do not fully agree with my friends comment. There is an Arabic village east of Jerusalem called Abu Gosh (it contains some of the best food you will ever find). You will find no borders there, no hatred, no fighting between Jews and Arabs. I believe this can be replicated if both sides act in good faith.


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## CQB (Feb 13, 2018)

Abu Gosh was the way it was for centuries.


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## Gunz (Feb 13, 2018)

Serenity said:


> _*... To be honest, I hate going back in history and reading about the grievances on either side...*_"



Then how can you possibly understand what you're talking about? The _only way_ to understand the issue is to learn how it came about. I'm astonished by this statement.



> _*"...and how poorly the media covers a Palestinian-Israeli conflict from their point of view.  When you have it pointed out to you, you start to notice the bias in the captions, the way a situation is presented, and it comes down to the idea that in a lot of mainstream news, the value of a Palestinian life felt less that that of an Israeli..."*_



Again, many here would argue with justification that the bias is exactly opposite of what you have stated.


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## J.S. (Feb 13, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Again, many here would argue with justification that the bias is exactly opposite of what you have stated. For decades Israel has been condemned unfairly in the media while it's enemies are given sympathetic portrayals.



A prime example of anti-Israel bias in the media is the infamous BBC headline, "Three Palestinians killed after deadly stabbing in Jerusalem." Those three Palestinians were shot by police after they stabbed an Israeli civilian. At best it's careless reporting with clear bias, at worst it's deliberate misinformation.

I personally believe in the two-state solution, but there is a pro-Palestine slant in many mainstream media outlets.


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## Fl_Ag (Feb 13, 2018)

First, I want to say thanks to@757 was starting this thread. This is a subject I'm passionate about and always seeking more information on. I was following closely in the SA thread and doing my own fact-checking on the side. Although my stance is almost a close mirror of @CDG's, one of the books I have sitting on my desk, waiting to begin, is a pro-Palestinian analysis on the conflict – trying to better understand the “other side.” I’m starting that one up after assessment in a few weeks. Second, @Ocoka, you're opening post on this thread is legendary - holy shit. 

Now into some actual content. @Serenity, I appreciate your willingness to present the opposing side. Yes, those numbers from 2014 suck, they really do. However, as @757 beat me to it, Hamas is notorious for placing civilians around military targets and military personnel/structures/resources in civilian population centers and that quote from his IDF friend is actually a bull's eye analogy for just that. And yes, there are still a lot more Palestinian military casualties over Israeli military casualties – the Israelis are damn good fighters. If you review the metrics from the Yom Kippur War, Israeli military casualties were a small, small fraction compared to its enemies. If we’re going to discuss asymmetry or abuse of one side by the other, I don’t believe we should be citing military casualties and the way you presented your numbers skews your own point. I hope that is neutral because I mean it as such. I’ll present the numbers from that war if anybody cares for them. 

Someone correct me if I’m wrong, but this is what I’m tracking: the pattern over the last two decades has consisted of mainstream uproar over Israeli settlements, Israel disengaging those settlement efforts, and an extremist group stepping into the vacuum almost instantaneously to harbor fellow extremists and function as a staging point for violent attacks in Israel and the surrounding areas. The most notable example is, you guessed it, Hamas. Israel disengaged from Gaza in 2005 and by2007 the Fatah state was overrun by Hamas who has since controlled the area and we are all-too-familiar with what those nut cases are capable of. A second example is Hezbollah’s shit show. Israel occupied a portion of Southern Lebanon in response to the group’s attacks on Northern Israel resulting in mass civilian casualties. Following the UN’s outrage, Israel withdraws in 2000 and has since had to deal with terror and murder on its northern border stemming exclusively from Hezbollah. 

Nowadays it seems that the hot topic is Israeli settlements in the West Bank. If Israel officially disengaged its settlements there, I’d be willing to bet a whole lot of money that a terror organization, or possibly one disguised as a political party, would appropriate the fresh territory. 

So, back to @CDG’s point, Israel does what is necessary to keep its people safe. It’s not pretty and from what I hear from folks who have been there, it is quite sad (I have not yet, but am planning a Greece/Israel dive trip this Summer with some extra time to absorb the culture in Israel), but at the end of the day it’s effective and for Israel and if it's legal, then that's all that matters. Everyone feel free to fact-check me and correct any misinformation.


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## Serenity (Feb 15, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Then how can you possibly understand what you're talking about? The _only way_ to understand the issue is to learn how it came about. I'm astonished by this statement.
> 
> 
> 
> Again, many here would argue with justification that the bias is exactly opposite of what you have stated. For decades Israel has been condemned unfairly in the media while it's enemies are given sympathetic portrayals.


Yes, I get this.  I am actually deliberately not getting into details on my feelings about the past events.  I don’t think it’s helpful, I suspect it will make some people here angrier.  If you were to put yourself in the shoes of a Palestinian and walk through history yourself, how would you feel and what would you do?  It’s not that I don’t care, because I see the arguments on both sides.  I want the current situation to improve, I want the two state solution.  At this stage, I do place greater blame on the Israelis with the continued entrapment and settlement business, every time I read the news, it’s comes across to me that the Israelis are unrepentant.  But there’s always this underlying message that Palestinians have caused this situation on themselves.  I find this really unfair.   

I’m supposed to be working but sneaking on here, I’ve not read @Fl_Ag ’s post, I feel I need to be properly focused.  I’ll read it later when this awful work week ends.


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## Serenity (Feb 15, 2018)

Well, ‘angrier’ is not the correct word, ‘unimpressed’ is more appropriate. I’m going to get some chocolates and get back to work!


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## Gunz (Feb 15, 2018)

The primary source of your knowledge of this topic is a Palestinian friend.

The topic is historically-driven, extremely complicated. It not only involves Jews and Palestinians, but inter-Arab relations, Egypt-Soviet and Soviet-Syrian alliances, monarchies, despots, Egypt's war in Yemen, the UN, al-Fatah, al-Ba'th, the PLO, Jordan, Iraq, Iran and the Saudis, Hamas, Hezbollah, Zionism, the Bible, the Koran, the Cold War, the Six Day War, the Yom Kipper War, the United States and its support of Israel, oil, diverting the Jordan River, terrorism, the Suez Canal, the Straits of Tiran, France, the Dimona Nuclear Reactor, blockades, arms embargos, battles, thousands of deaths and a myriad of other things that have shaped and twisted that region to its current state. Nothing is simple.


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## Serenity (Feb 16, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> The primary source of your knowledge of this topic is a Palestinian friend.


No.  The primary source of my knowlege is the same pool as everyone elses. I brought up my friend because I wanted to highlight why I even take an interest.  He’s a positive reinforcement for me of the worthiness of the Palestinian people, because it’s so easy not to care.  I originally expressed my dislike because I felt a member I highly respect pushed a one sided narrative that I consider propaganda BS.  Just my opinion, not being passive-aggressive or just plain aggressive. It didn’t address the actual SA issues - I read the article and found myself annoyed.  I then got fed up when there was a single ‘sweeping’ statement that Palestinians are the #1 oppressors of themselves.  I don’t know about you, but I find looking back overwhelmingly exhausting.   I deeply regret I pressed the ‘dislike’ button in a moment of rage.  I’d like to see a better future for the Palestinian people, but at this stage I can’t see a path every time I read the news.  I only hope more international pressure does something-anything.  I can do without the hate-filled commentary and biased reporting. 


Ocoka said:


> The topic is historically-driven, extremely complicated. It not only involves Jews and Palestinians, but inter-Arab relations, Egypt-Soviet and Soviet-Syrian alliances, monarchies, despots, Egypt's war in Yemen, the UN, al-Fatah, al-Ba'th, the PLO, Jordan, Iraq, Iran and the Saudis, Hamas, Hezbollah, Zionism, the Bible, the Koran, the Cold War, the Six Day War, the Yom Kipper War, the United States and its support of Israel, oil, diverting the Jordan River, terrorism, the Suez Canal, the Straits of Tiran, France, the Dimona Nuclear Reactor, blockades, arms embargos, battles, thousands of deaths and a myriad of other things that have shaped and twisted that region to its current state. Nothing is simple.


Yes.  It’s complicated and that is all I expect people to acknowledge before they make their statements.  As stated above, and I strongly agree, the Palestinians civilians are the real victims here.  

Every time I read about the past events, my head wants to explode.  People throw the label of Terrorism on the Palestinian’s side, but from my limited understanding, Israel would be equally guilty.  The whole matter of Hamas and assymetric warfare comes across as complicated to me.  I sincerely give up.  But I appreciate the more balanced view points expressed here.


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## Gunz (Feb 17, 2018)

Peace might have been achieved many years ago if the Palestinians and their Arab sponsers had not been so adamant and determined to annihilate Israel and drive the Jews into the sea. They never once waivered from this hardline intractable position and they demonstrated their resolve with terrorist attacks against Israeli soft targets and continuous rhetorical and military provocations _that were designed to antagonize and force Israel to retaliate._

And that's all the time I have for this futile debate.


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## CQB (Feb 18, 2018)

The Deir Yassin massacre has become a symbol of Jewish bastardry from the Arab side. In hindsight though, it's more interesting. The first is a short film with first hand accounts and the second is a description of what occurred. 






The Capture of Deir Yassin 

Sometimes the reaction you get, isn't the one you plan for. 

"Abu Mahmud, a Deir Yassin resident in 1948 told Khalidi "there was no rape," but Khalidi replied, "We have to say this, so the Arab armies will come to liberate Palestine from the Jews." Nusseibeh told the BBC 50 years later, "This was our biggest mistake. We did not realize how our people would react. As soon as they heard that women had been raped at Deir Yassin, Palestinians fled in terror."


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## Marauder06 (Mar 19, 2018)

In Israel now, on the tail end of our annual 12-day academic trip with a group of military cadets and college students.  In just the short time we've been here, there was a fatal car ramming attack, a stabbing in the Old CIty, and the discovery of two Hamas terror-tunnels.  We stood on the Golan Heights and watched / heard the war going on in Syria.  The prime minister of the Palestinian Authority was supposed to meet with us, but cancelled in favor of a short-notice meeting with Hamas in Gaza, and narrowly avoided getting murdered by an IED on his way to the meet.  My hotel room in Tel Aviv overlooks the Dolphinarium, the site of a horrific terrorist attack during the Second Intifadah.  We were not allowed to go into Bethlehem because of the violence (this is a DoD rule, not something imposed locally) and I was not allowed up on the Temple Mount again this year.  We can't go into Gaza or to Ramallah because of the potential threat.  We visited the town of Sderot and saw the remnants of the rockets launched randomly at civilian targets in southern Israel (reaction time based on rocket time of flight:  maybe 15 seconds).

The people of this region--not just Israelis--are living with a level of potential and actual violence that is completely unfathomable to most Americans.


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## Muppet (Mar 19, 2018)

As a Jew, I hope one day, I can visit Israel. I was binge watching NETFLIX and Amazon prime on a slow day at the station the other day, watched a documentary on the I.D.F. In particular and I had no idea this was a thing but within the I.D.F. stands a brigade, if I can recall, of non Jews, all Israeli's of Muslim decent. They serve with honor and distinction, both preforming raids, patrols and on the borders, despite being considered outcasts in their communitiesm many threatened with death. I have a couple medic friends from my A.O. that volunteered in country, preforming E.M.S. / in hospital duties under an organization, I cannot recall, that will pay for round trip, a 2 week stay, room / board and security. I have been saying this for years and I will continue to say it. We, as a country, can take a page out of their play book, on how to deal with security and terrorism  in general.

M.


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## cappuccino (Mar 19, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> I've never been to Israel, but I've been a lifelong student of Israel and its wars and have spoken twice to Netanyahu on the phone...including a conversation in 1991 which was rudely interrupted by a scud missile attack. The ironic thing was that the shortwave radio in our office in Tampa was tuned to Radio Tel Aviv and he heard the incoming missile warning from our radio through my phone...before the sirens went off in T.A.! He had to excuse himself to go don a gas mask.
> 
> 
> That is amazing Sir! I would love to one day speak with Netanyahu, he seems like a very smart, and serious man.
> ...


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## cappuccino (Mar 19, 2018)

I seem to have accidentally included response within the quote box sorry for that confusion guys!


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## Gunz (Mar 19, 2018)

Not a problem.

Netanyahu spoke to a joint session of Congress in the months following 9/11, and everything he said regarding terrorism was spot on.

He has been adamant in his conviction that Iran, of all countries in the ME presents the clearest danger, a message that's been ignored by a large segment of America.

He was a badass in the IDF. Took a bullet in the shoulder in the War of Attrition in '72.


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## Poccington (Mar 19, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> In Israel now, on the tail end of our annual 12-day academic trip with a group of military cadets and college students.  In just the short time we've been here, there was a fatal car ramming attack, a stabbing in the Old CIty, and the discovery of two Hamas terror-tunnels.  We stood on the Golan Heights and watched / heard the war going on in Syria.  The prime minister of the Palestinian Authority was supposed to meet with us, but cancelled in favor of a short-notice meeting with Hamas in Gaza, and narrowly avoided getting murdered by an IED on his way to the meet.  My hotel room in Tel Aviv overlooks the Dolphinarium, the site of a horrific terrorist attack during the Second Intifadah.  We were not allowed to go into Bethlehem because of the violence (this is a DoD rule, not something imposed locally) and I was not allowed up on the Temple Mount again this year.  We can't go into Gaza or to Ramallah because of the potential threat.  We visited the town of Sderot and saw the remnants of the rockets launched randomly at civilian targets in southern Israel (reaction time based on rocket time of flight:  maybe 15 seconds).
> 
> The people of this region--not just Israelis--are living with a level of potential and actual violence that is completely unfathomable to most Americans.



Great post.


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## cappuccino (Mar 19, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Not a problem.
> 
> Netanyahu spoke to a joint session of Congress in the months following 9/11, and everything he said regarding terrorism was spot on.
> 
> ...



Wow, today I definitely learned. I had no idea that fought in the War of Attrition, let alone that he took a bullet. He definitely has had an impressive career serving the country of Israel. 

That is what bothers me about a lot of people, especially politicians, here in the west. No one seems to listen to what Israel and her representatives have been saying. Israel is _right there_ surrounded by these nations, receiving direct threats from them. Yet, many people here in America act like they know better than Israel, and try to claim Israel is wrong in what they are doing. I think people need to really start listening to what Israel has to say, especially if we truly want to prevent further conflict. They, more than anyone, knows what Iran is truly capable of. Lets not forget it was Israel that supposedly helped the US put Stuxnet into the Iranian nuclear program systems to slow it down.

As for the Palestinians, I don't want to lump all of them in with their corrupt "government" but it is hard not to. There seems to be such a strong anti-Israel theme among the Palestinian people that it blinds them. Maybe the world would be more open to listening if the Palestinian Authority would stop paying the families of people who kill Americans/Israelis. If they really want to be taken seriously then they should stop supporting terrorism, stop advocating for the death of Israelis, and stop burning flags/rioting in the Gaza Strip.

That's just my $0.02 for whatever it's worth.


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## 757 (Aug 13, 2020)

UAE, Israel reach historic peace deal - Middle East

*UAE, Israel reach historic peace deal*
Israel to freeze sovereignty plan, after Trump admin. brokers peace deal between Israel and United Arab Emirates, normalizing relations

I am cautiously optimistic, but this seems like a step in the right direction  Arabic countries, don't typically do this in the open.


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## Marauder06 (Aug 13, 2020)

I agree, this is a big deal.


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## AWP (Aug 13, 2020)

The UAE is more Westernized than people think.


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## Bypass (Aug 13, 2020)

I heard it said Iran hates this deal. That in itself makes me very happy.


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## AWP (Sep 7, 2020)

The UK is onboard with the Abraham Accord. (nice phrasing)

Britain adds its support for Abraham Accord to boost reconciliation efforts



> Britain has welcomed the Abraham Accord between the UAE, Israel and US as a step toward regional stability.
> 
> Talks between Anwar Gargash, UAE Minister of State for Foreign Affairs, and his London counterpart James Cleverly, the Middle East minister at the Foreign, Commonwealth and Development Office focused on the impact of the agreement.
> 
> Mr Cleverly said the government viewed the accord as an historic step.


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## Blizzard (Sep 8, 2020)

AWP said:


> The UAE is more Westernized than people think.


Agreed.  

As evidence to that, I recall when I first heard about this women and the combat sorties she flew against ISIS; very progressive for an Arab country:


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## RackMaster (Sep 9, 2020)

@amlove21 it's like you can tell the future. 

Trump nominated for Nobel Peace Prize by Norwegian official, citing Israel-UAE peace deal


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## amlove21 (Sep 9, 2020)

RackMaster said:


> @amlove21 it's like you can tell the future.
> 
> Trump nominated for Nobel Peace Prize by Norwegian official, citing Israel-UAE peace deal


For my next trick, watch me pull the election results out of a hat!


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## Blizzard (Sep 11, 2020)

And now, just like that, Bahrain will recognize Israel.

Bahrain becomes latest Arab nation to recognize Israel


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## Marauder06 (Sep 11, 2020)

Blizzard said:


> And now, just like that, Bahrain will recognize Israel.
> 
> Bahrain becomes latest Arab nation to recognize Israel




Another huge foreign policy win for the President.


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## Board and Seize (Sep 11, 2020)

Annnnnd another nomination.

And a very fun article from the Atlantic on why Trump's nom means we should end the entire institution of the Nobel Peace Prize! (and that came _before_ the second nod).


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## amlove21 (Sep 12, 2020)

Board and Seize said:


> Annnnnd another nomination.
> 
> And a very fun article from the Atlantic on why Trump's nom means we should end the entire institution of the Nobel Peace Prize! (and that came _before_ the second nod).


Jesus Christ man. Cmon.

This might be the most meaningful peace deal in what- decades????


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## AWP (Sep 12, 2020)

amlove21 said:


> Jesus Christ man. Cmon.
> 
> This might be the most meaningful peace deal in what- decades????



Like I posted elsewhere, Oman and Sudan are in talks with Israel to normalize relations. There is a real possibility you could have 4 Islamic nations recognize Israel this year. That's not even counting the Kosovo-Serbia trade issue, a peace deal with the Taliban, and dropping to under 5k troops in AF and less than 3k in Iraq.

I think Trump should be a very real, legit contender for the Nobel Peace Prize.


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## CQB (Sep 12, 2020)

Also an executive order to defund all UN agencies that recognize the PA & PLO plus the executive order also calls for withdrawing funding from any organization that “is controlled or substantially influenced by any state that sponsors terrorism.”
To add, the previous incumbent received one for what? Winning an election?


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## Blizzard (Sep 12, 2020)

This statement from an article posted earlier is on point:
Netanyahu thanked Trump. "It took us 26 years between the second peace agreement with an Arab country and the third, but only 29 days between the third and the fourth, and there will be more," he said.


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## Blizzard (Sep 12, 2020)

I was meaning to add this little rant to my previous post:

Not to keep railing on the media but this is a real problem...

I'm not the biggest fan of the President, primarily as an result of his demeanor, but he still deserves credit where due. I don't know what the media coverage on this has been like in your respective areas but, locally here, there's been virtually none.  These agreements are significant and should be near the top of every newscast. 

The President even had a scheduled appearance at a university in the northern part of our state yesterday; I assume it took place but don't know for certain because I didn't see any coverage. On the otherhand, Biden's wife stopped by a secondary school a couple days earlier and every outlet had coverage.  That's just messed up and lacks any journalistic integrity.  

As mentioned, these agreements are significant and noteworthy. You can't ignore it just because you don't like the guy.


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## amlove21 (Sep 12, 2020)

@Blizzard , spot on.

Last night, CNN, MSNBC and some others spent all of 2-3 minutes talking about the most historic peace deal in the Middle East since the 70’s, and Don Lemon only gave that time to say the only reason the president wanted the peace prize was because Obama had one.

Absolute fucking clownery.


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## CQB (Sep 12, 2020)

I'm not sure if you can ask for one, but that sounds plain silly.


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## amlove21 (Sep 12, 2020)

CQB said:


> I'm not sure if you can ask for one, but that sounds plain silly.


It’s ridiculous. Don Lemon is trash.


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## AWP (Oct 8, 2020)

Nothing to see here, just the UAE's Sec State visiting a Holocaust memorial.

UAE minister vows 'never again' in Berlin Holocaust memorial visit together with Israeli counterpart



> Writing in the visitors’ book in Arabic, he called the site “a witness to the fall of a group of human beings who were victims of advocates of extremism and hatred,” and he advocated “the noble human values of co-existence, tolerance, acceptance of others and respect of all religions and beliefs”.
> 
> “Never Again,” Sheikh Abdullah added in English - a slogan often taken up by survivors of Nazi Germany’s World War Two genocide to justify actions to protect Israel and the Jewish people.





> ..some in Israel worry the deal could herald sales of advanced U.S. weaponry to Abu Dhabi that were previously withheld.



Yeah, the UAE wants them some F-35's in a bad way.


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## AWP (Oct 8, 2020)

So, thinking about the F-35 angle...

The UAE has asked for -35's for several years now. The roadblock has always been Israel. Israel does not want an Arab nation to have comparable technology, Israel always wants a certain level of dominance.

Here's the thing: Arab nations don't give a shit about Israel, especially the GCC. The GCC is Sunni, Iran (their largest threat) is Shia, and the GCC pays lip service to the Palestinian question. The GCC is no more of a threat to Israel than Japan or Canada.

My shallow understanding of foreign aircraft sales: A request is made by the acquiring nation to purchase...we'll use F-16's. Once ITAR and blah, blah are signed off, Lockheed ensures part of the sale includes Lockheed employees are part of the T&C's. 1. Liability and 2. Future sales. "LOL, what?" See, LM doesn't want the locals installing locally-made widgets. LM wants LM-spec parts because crashes cost money in lawsuits and LM doesn't want a program to look bad (and lose future sales) because Pardustan lawn darted a few Vipers. Additionally, F-16's, F-15's, F-35's, etc. are all tailor made to local requirements and ITAR restrictions...all of this is part of the State Department, DoD, and contract negotiations. We want Pardustan to have -16's, but we don't want them capable of carrying SDB's or being quite as good as our CJ models at SEAD/ DEAD or whatever. That's all understood before the first plane is built. Those LM reps inspect all maintenance done on the a/c.

Take the F-35 now. It is networked to hell and back, so the cybersecurity requirements are insane. The internal network requirements and support are insane, and this is all before we talk about maintenance. You are kidding yourself if you think LM techs aren't passing back observations and intel to LM and by default the USG. Oversight of the -35 will make F-16 programs look like nap time at a daycare.

One last thing to consider: The Saudis can't necessarily normalize relations w/ Israel thanks to the Wahibbis. What they can do is wait to see how the UAE negotiations and operations go and then slide into LM's DMs in 10-ish years. The F-35 isn't just a capability, it is a status symbol and the UAE will be a pretty solid litmus test.

The UAE gets -35's if Trump's re-elected. Under Biden? I have no idea.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 9, 2020)

Israel and Jordan have been at peace for some time, well now they've just signed an airspace use agreement. 

Israel and Jordan sign historic airspace agreement


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## AWP (Oct 9, 2020)

Right now, the greatest impediment to peace in the Middle East is... (drum roll) Iran.

This also sets the stage for normalization of relations between Jordan and Israel and all of these deals are essentially peace treaties. I stand by my earlier observation that there's no way any of this happens without talking to the Saudis.

Hot take: as long as Iran backs Hamas et. al., the Arab world will not give a tinker's damn about the Palestinians.

Hotter take: time to eject the Houthis from Yemen and remove Iranian influence there. Get the Saudis, UAE, Blackwater in the game, support them with ISR, logistics, tankers, whatever they need.


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## Kraut783 (Oct 9, 2020)

Agree, Iran, and their proxies...Iraq and Lebanon.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 9, 2020)

AWP said:


> Right now, the greatest impediment to peace in the Middle East is... (drum roll) Iran.
> 
> This also sets the stage for normalization of relations between Jordan and Israel and all of these deals are essentially peace treaties. I stand by my earlier observation that there's no way any of this happens without talking to the Saudis.
> 
> ...


Things be swift.  

Signs Saudis are edging towards historic Israel peace

This should be another W for the POTUS and if he doesn't get the Nobel Peace Prize then it's bullshit.


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## AWP (Oct 9, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> Things be swift.
> 
> Signs Saudis are edging towards historic Israel peace
> 
> This should be another W for the POTUS and if he doesn't get the Nobel Peace Prize then it's bullshit.



Too late:

The Nobel Peace Prize 2020



> The Nobel Peace Prize 2020 was awarded to World Food Programme (WFP) "for its efforts to combat hunger, for its contribution to bettering conditions for peace in conflict-affected areas and for acting as a driving force in efforts to prevent the use of hunger as a weapon of war and conflict."



The WFP is a United Nations organization...


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 10, 2020)

AWP said:


> Too late:
> 
> The Nobel Peace Prize 2020
> 
> ...


What a fucking joke. 

I still can't believe we had a president get a Nobel prize for his "potential" (err why do I think it had nothing to do with his "potential") and a president that is actually getting peace deals done just gets shat on?  

Fuck.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 18, 2020)

Now Sudan as well?  

Sudan to normalize ties with Israel after US ultimatum - report


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## AWP (Oct 18, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Now Sudan as well?
> 
> Sudan to normalize ties with Israel after US ultimatum - report



Oman follows this before the end of the year. If I'm wrong, you choose my avatar for a week.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 19, 2020)

AWP said:


> If I'm wrong, you choose my avatar for a week.


Mara: “Hey Siri, show me gayest Nickleback images” 

Siri: “your question is redundant”


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## AWP (Oct 19, 2020)

The first flight from the UAE to Israel flew this week. Etihad is one of two state-owned airlines in the UAE, so this normalization thing is proceeding at a rapid pace.

UAE officials talk ties with Israel and US in Abu Dhabi meeting



> Senior Emirati, American and Israeli officials met on Monday evening to discuss ways to develop further co-operation between the UAE and Israel, and signed new deals.
> 
> Dr Sultan Al Jaber, Minister of Industry and Advanced Technology, and Minister of State for Financial Affairs Obaid Al Tayer met at Emirates Palace with Israeli executives, US Treasury Secretary Steven Mnuchin and US ambassador to the UAE, John Rakolta.



And then there's this, also from Etihad:



> Etihad has also launched a Hebrew-language page to cater to Israeli tourists and visitors.



The UAE isn't messing around.


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## AWP (Oct 23, 2020)

Some links with more info on the UAE/ Israel/ everyone else normalization of relations w/ Israel topic:

- 90 days without a visa for residents travelling to Israel from the UAE and vice versa. 90 freaking days...that's kind of big.
UAE and Israel agree on 90-day visa-free travel for Emiratis

- More talks between the US and UAE this week. I think that's a polite way of saying, "Fuck you, Iran" and working towards what I believe to be one end state: Emirati F-35's.
UAE and US to work together to combat extremism and boost regional stability after forging strategic partnership


> The UAE and the US have vowed closely to bolster regional security, counter extremism and promote tolerance.
> 
> The two nations agreed to a strategic dialogue this week aiming to enhance ties across key areas.
> 
> They are politics, defence, law enforcement and border security, intelligence and counter-terrorism, human rights, economics, culture and academics, and space.



- Apparently, Israel has been at this for awhile now, so a lot of what is coming together has been years in the making, albeit under the radar. Israel's role in the US NOT designating Qatar as a state supporter of terrorism is kind of surprising, but also makes sense given factors cited in the article.
With or without normalization, expert on Gulf sees Israel as regional peacemaker

- A pretty good roll-up of where countries stand right now, with several waiting to see who wins in November. Curiously (or not depending upon your views), a Biden win could prevent other nations from recognizing Israel w/ the Palestinians supporting a Biden win.*
Countries waiting to see if Trump wins before moving on Israel normalization

* - Rant here, going out of news mode, when Islamic nations are turning their backs on Palestinians, but a US presidential candidate does NOT? I don't have the words, I really don't.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 23, 2020)

The fact that Omar didn't get censured by her party when she went to the West Bank and did her level best to avoid any interaction with the Israeli government I'll never know.  

There could have been peace in the Middle East long ago if Palestinians wanted it.  But it's good to see the shift of powers away from supporting the "forever refugee".


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## AWP (Oct 24, 2020)

This just came a LOT sooner than I ever expected...A LOT sooner. This is huge. Or Yuge if you prefer.

Israel won't block UAE buying F-35 stealth fighters



> After hashing out a deal to secure new high-tech hardware from the US to upgrade the Israeli military, Defence Minister Benny Gantz said on Friday that they would not oppose the sale of “*specific weapons systems*” to the UAE.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 24, 2020)

Our allies in the Middle East become more secure, Iran is further threatened, and our military-industrial economy is further enriched.  What could be better?


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## AWP (Nov 2, 2020)

5 days after my last post, this story breaks.

Trump Administration Wants To Sell UAE A Fleet Of 50 F-35s



> President Donald Trump’s administration has informed Congress that it plans to sell the United Arab Emirates 50 F-35 stealth fighters. Backed by the U.S. State Department, the proposed deal still faces significant hurdles, largely stemming from concerns about how it might affect Israel’s so-called “qualitative military edge” in the Middle East. There has already been some pushback from legislators to this latest announcement and representatives of Democratic presidential candidate Joe Biden’s campaign have also voiced hesitation over how they might handle the deal.



To put this into perspective, Israel's deal for F-35's is...50.

If Biden's elected, forget the UAE getting -35's. It won't happen. If the Senate goes Dem, it probably won't happen.


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## R.Caerbannog (Nov 2, 2020)

AWP said:


> 5 days after my last post, this story breaks.
> 
> Trump Administration Wants To Sell UAE A Fleet Of 50 F-35s
> 
> ...


Just outta curiosity, is there any possibility that the UAE can distribute that tech to our adversaries or renege on peace in the middle east? This is me spitballing, but I wonder how they'll behave when they have stealth aircraft in their inventory. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I'm thinking the Arab world is playing nice to get their hands on F-35 tech. 

Some of the Middle Easts biggest energy market customers are in Asia. What's to stop them from taking that tech and using it to push us and our allies out of the region, while strengthening ties with China?


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## AWP (Nov 2, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Just outta curiosity, is there any possibility that the UAE can distribute that tech to our adversaries or renege on peace in the middle east? This is me spitballing, but I wonder how they'll behave when they have stealth aircraft in their inventory. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I'm thinking the Arab world is playing nice to get their hands on F-35 tech.
> 
> Some of the Middle Easts biggest energy market customers are in Asia. What's to stop them from taking that tech and using it to push us and our allies out of the region, while strengthening ties with China?



That's kind of complicated, I think, but a solid concern.

So, the UAE is strengthening economic ties w/ many nations including China and Russia. Both have stealth programs and frankly, China's stolen a lot of data on the -35. How much is left for them to steal? No idea.

Like I posted earlier, Lockheed will have reps on the ground who will control the physical components, so your secret stealing/ sharing would be limited to...RAM paint samples and plans, the latter of which China already has.

The -35's will also be tailored to the UAE, so some of our sensitive avionics will not be in the jet. I would imagine that the Lockheed ALIS or USAF developed replacement software will have some NSA-approved and monitored backdoors.

The UAE getting -35's over making a run at China's stealth a/c would make me believe that the UAE will not do anything to jeopardize the deal. Plus, the deal will take several years to finalize and then several more for the airframes to arrive. The US is already working on a 6th gen a/c. The -35's will be far from obsolete, but we'll be on the path to fielding better tech by the time they arrive at Dhafra or Liwa in operational squadrons.

There's risk in anything, but I'd think it is pretty low.


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## Florida173 (Nov 2, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Just outta curiosity, is there any possibility that the UAE can distribute that tech to our adversaries or renege on peace in the middle east? This is me spitballing, but I wonder how they'll behave when they have stealth aircraft in their inventory. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I'm thinking the Arab world is playing nice to get their hands on F-35 tech.
> 
> Some of the Middle Easts biggest energy market customers are in Asia. What's to stop them from taking that tech and using it to push us and our allies out of the region, while strengthening ties with China?



I highly doubt anything of the sort. UAE is a pretty solid ally. Any collapse of KSA dominance in the region would be a good opportunity for UAE. They are already doing better than most on force projection in some of conflict areas and I would always take a UAE SOF guy over a KSA SOF guy.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 2, 2020)

Florida173 said:


> UAE is a pretty solid ally.


Of us?

I must have missed a memo.


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## AWP (Nov 2, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Of us?
> 
> I must have missed a memo.



They are. They've made overtures to strengthen military ties between our nations. We've been at Al Dhafra for over a decade now and the Navy has ports it can put into for maintenance. We've felt secure enough here to operate F-22's, F-35's, AWACS, U-2's and other airframes. Our Military Attaché to the UAE is a 2-star former 5th Group guy.

The above is the tip of the iceberg.


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## GOTWA (Nov 2, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Just outta curiosity, is there any possibility that the UAE can distribute that tech to our adversaries or renege on peace in the middle east? This is me spitballing, but I wonder how they'll behave when they have stealth aircraft in their inventory. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I'm thinking the Arab world is playing nice to get their hands on F-35 tech.
> 
> Some of the Middle Easts biggest energy market customers are in Asia. What's to stop them from taking that tech and using it to push us and our allies out of the region, while strengthening ties with China?


There's nothing to stop them per se, but ITAR items cannot be resold after purchase without concurrent approval from the US.


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## R.Caerbannog (Nov 3, 2020)

AWP said:


> That's kind of complicated, I think, but a solid concern.
> 
> So, the UAE is strengthening economic ties w/ many nations including China and Russia. Both have stealth programs and frankly, China's stolen a lot of data on the -35. How much is left for them to steal? No idea.
> 
> ...


Gotcha. Reason I was asking was back in 2013 I was finding out that China had plans for the F-35 and had made it's own chinesium version the 'snowy owl'. Few years later when our F-35's got to Turkey(?) there was a leaked audio tape of some Russians engineers/scientists who somehow got access to them. Russian eggheads said something akin to being over a decade behind us based on their cursory examinations.

While the cat's been outta the bag for a while, for some reason a Middle Eastern nation having F-35 tech gives me pause. Maybe I'm being obtuse, but I worry a technologically advanced Middle East may be bad in the long term. With all the dogma and hatred down there I wonder if our tech will start going head to head as our allies gain strength and decide to go it on their own.

Other thing that gives me pause is asset rich nations, like Saudi Arabia, will use the pretext of the UAE getting planes to get that tech for their own. Not to mention that many Gulf States and other 'allied' nations support our ideological enemies. Good example would be the Saudi's and their involvement in Cuba or the Turks and their BS with Isis.

I dunno man, maybe I'm being paranoid, but I worry that a Middle East nation with the right technological might could be disastrous to the western world. That coupled with a declining western birthrate and the various social issues we're having... I see our tech proliferating as something that will negatively affect us down the line.

If the sales go through I hope we have that 6th gen tech a/c online.


Florida173 said:


> I highly doubt anything of the sort. UAE is a pretty solid ally. Any collapse of KSA dominance in the region would be a good opportunity for UAE. They are already doing better than most on force projection in some of conflict areas and I would always take a UAE SOF guy over a KSA SOF guy.


Gotcha dude, that makes a lot of sense. Though at the moment we're fighting a common enemy. I'm thinking more what's going to happen after things have settled down and they start getting restless over resources like water, trade, and farmland. The allies of today may not always be the allies of tomorrow.



GOTWA said:


> There's nothing to stop them per se, but ITAR items cannot be resold after purchase without concurrent approval from the US.


I get that, I really do. But we can't always trust the rule of law or current strength to protect our technology. Heck... imagine we get another administration that gave concessions to a nation like Iran, except the concession wouldn't be money, but military tech.


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## AWP (Nov 3, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Gotcha. Reason I was asking was back in 2013 I was finding out that China had plans for the F-35 and had made it's own chinesium version the 'snowy owl'. Few years later when our F-35's got to Turkey(?) there was a leaked audio tape of some Russians engineers/scientists who somehow got access to them. Russian eggheads said something akin to being over a decade behind us based on their cursory examinations.



Turkey never had -35's. They were a part of the program and had a cockpit mockup, but were dumped before a single airframe went to the country. China probably stole more info from hacked servers than Turkey could have given them.


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## R.Caerbannog (Nov 3, 2020)

AWP said:


> Turkey never had -35's. They were a part of the program and had a cockpit mockup, but were dumped before a single airframe went to the country. China probably stole more info from hacked servers than Turkey could have given them.


I thought Turkey got two airframes in before they went full derp and had them taken away. There was an airshow with them displaying two F-35 air frames with a screen flying a Turkish flag in the back. Unless those were both mockups.

This was at the time before the Turks finalized the S-400 deal with the Russian's.


----------



## AWP (Nov 3, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> I thought Turkey got two airframes in before they went full derp and had them taken away. There was an airshow with them displaying two F-35 air frames with a screen flying a Turkish flag in the back. Unless those were both mockups.
> 
> This was at the time before the Turks finalized the S-400 deal with the Russian's.



If they did I don't see it in a quick Google search. You have a link?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 3, 2020)

As far as I can tell, when Turkey was kicked out the planes were still being built but needed a buyer.  Took Congress to pass an appropriation to buy them.  

It’s official: US Air Force to buy Turkish F-35s


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Nov 3, 2020)

AWP said:


> If they did I don't see it in a quick Google search. You have a link?


I don't. I checked as well, but I couldn't find that specific show on google or duckduck go. 

I remember there being some sort of trade show with a plane in the forefront and an giant LCD/LED screen flying the Turkish flash and flashing promotional material for the F-35. Now that I think of it, it could have been some sort of youtube video attached to an article. Lemme see if I can find it.

This is the closest thing I remember seeing. The ceremony was at Fort Worth around 21 June 2018, but the Turks weren't kicked outta the program until 19 July 2019. Did those two planes get to Turkey?




Turkey officially kicked out of F-35 program, costing US half a billion dollars

Also, there was something about F-35 parts being made in Turkey. Maybe that's where the Russians got their sneak peek.


----------



## AWP (Nov 3, 2020)

Turks making parts were a portion of the deal, but they didn't make anything to my knowledge. A nation making portions of their aircraft isn't unusal.

I can't find a source that says the Turks had an airframe. Maybe there were mockups or airframes with Turk markings, but they never took delivery of an operational aircraft and if they did, they are in US hands now. Turkey possess ZERO F-35's as of this writing.


----------



## Intel Nerd (Nov 3, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Of us?
> 
> I must have missed a memo.



They're our largest export market in the ME (nearly $12b), they aren't very tight with Iran, but maintain relations, and we've had a permanent military presence there for nearly 30 decades. Also, they're more of the pro-KSA side of the regional geopolitics.

When I worked at a COCOM JIOC, I saw value in our friendship. I'll leave it at that.

They're pragmatic. And I'm comfortable with them having F-35s. Especially since this peace deal Iran said they're an easy, legitimate target. It would be a shame if those Iranian F-14s ran into the UAE's F-35s..


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## AWP (Nov 3, 2020)

Intel Nerd said:


> we've had a permanent military presence there for nearly 30 decades.



Great post minus...


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 3, 2020)

AWP said:


> Great post minus...


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 3, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Just outta curiosity, is there any possibility that the UAE can distribute that tech to our adversaries or renege on peace in the middle east? This is me spitballing, but I wonder how they'll behave when they have stealth aircraft in their inventory. Maybe I'm being paranoid, but I'm thinking the Arab world is playing nice to get their hands on F-35 tech.
> 
> Some of the Middle Easts biggest energy market customers are in Asia. What's to stop them from taking that tech and using it to push us and our allies out of the region, while strengthening ties with China?



Reneging is always a possibility. but it seems unlikely as long as 1) Iran keeps being Iran, 2) the US keeps being the US, and 3) there's money to be made with Israel. At the end of the day, no nation can fully trust any other nation, but we can generally trust that nations will act in their own self interests. It is very much in UAE's--and many other countries'--interests to make peace with Israel. If that took F-35s, then I think we as a nation will be OK with that, especially since we're probably already working on fielding the next generation of stealth fighters and bombers.

What allies do you foresee tiny UAE "push(ing) out of the region," F-35s or not?


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## Intel Nerd (Nov 3, 2020)

3 decades*

I need more coffee.


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## R.Caerbannog (Nov 3, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Reneging is always a possibility. but it seems unlikely as long as 1) Iran keeps being Iran, 2) the US keeps being the US, and 3) there's money to be made with Israel. At the end of the day, no nation can fully trust any other nation, but we can generally trust that nations will act in their own self interests. It is very much in UAE's--and many other countries'--interests to make peace with Israel. If that took F-35s, then I think we as a nation will be OK with that, especially since we're probably already working on fielding the next generation of stealth fighters and bombers.
> 
> What allies do you foresee tiny UAE "push(ing) out of the region," F-35s or not?


By itself I don't think the UAE would be a future threat. When boogeymen like Iran and Pakistan are quelled though, I think that a Gulf Nation with the right technological edge could essentially unite a fractured Middle East. Hence my concern.

We've essentially been building up the Middle East, not just militarily, but with knowledge and personnel. I just wonder how long will it be before they can become self sufficient and use the technology and lessons learned to become their own regional powerhouse. With or without us.


----------



## AWP (Nov 3, 2020)

R.Caerbannog said:


> When boogeymen like Iran and Pakistan are quelled though,



If this is the linchpin of your argument or concern, then you have none. We will no more do anything about PK than Canada will do about its moose problem. Iran...that will take extraordinary circumstaces to fully address.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Nov 5, 2020)

AWP said:


> If this is the linchpin of your argument or concern, then you have none. We will no more do anything about PK than Canada will do about its moose problem. Iran...that will take extraordinary circumstances to fully address.


Took me a bit to think about this. I don't know about Iran and Pakistan being as monolithic as they're made out to be. If their adversaries are armed with cutting edge US tech, who aren't constrained by neutered US policy makers, I can see things in the ME taking a very different turn.


----------



## AWP (Nov 6, 2020)

RE: 6th gen fighters.

The US Air Force has built and flown a mysterious full-scale prototype of its future fighter jet



> WASHINGTON — The U.S. Air Force has secretly designed, built and flown at least one prototype of its enigmatic next-generation fighter jet, the service’s top acquisition official confirmed to Defense News on Sept. 14.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Nov 6, 2020)

AWP said:


> RE: 6th gen fighters.
> 
> The US Air Force has built and flown a mysterious full-scale prototype of its future fighter jet


Noice!!!


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 6, 2020)

I hear that in the voice of Borat!


----------



## Jaknight (Nov 6, 2020)

AWP said:


> RE: 6th gen fighters.
> 
> The US Air Force has built and flown a mysterious full-scale prototype of its future fighter jet


The real question is does it have Warp Drive?


----------



## AWP (Nov 14, 2020)

F-35's? Nah, son, the UAE's reaching for the stars and if it makes it past Congress (a big IF), these boys are going to be loaded for bear.

Here's Exactly What's In America's Massive Advanced Weapons Deal With The UAE



> After weeks of reports that the U.S. government has been planning to sign off on the possible sale of various aircraft, including F-35 Joint Strike Fighters and MQ-9B drones, as well as other weapons and military equipment, to the United Arab Emirates (UAE), it has now formally approved three major proposed arms deals. These packages include up to 50 F-35As, 18 MQ-9Bs, and *a multitude of air-delivered munitions*, such as stealthy AGM-154E Joint Stand-Off Weapon-Extended Range cruise missiles, as well as other ancillary items, all valued at nearly $23.4 billion in total.



If you read the article, the UAE wants something like 4,000 "dumb" bombs in various sizes plus JDAM conversion kits. 

Now we just need our dumbass Congress to get on board.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 14, 2020)

So apparently Mossad took out Al-Masri in August.

Israeli agents killed al-Qaeda’s No. 2 in Iran in August: Report

Israeli agents killed al-Qaeda’s No. 2 on Iran street, at behest of US: NY Times

Al Qaeda loses one of its most experienced leaders in mysterious murder in Tehran :: WRAL.com

But three weeks we said he was killed in Afghanistan?

Senior al-Qaeda leader Abu Muhsin al-Masri killed in Afghanistan


----------



## Florida173 (Nov 14, 2020)

Edit


----------



## Florida173 (Nov 14, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> So apparently Mossad took out Al-Masri in August.
> 
> Israeli agents killed al-Qaeda’s No. 2 in Iran in August: Report
> 
> ...



Two different people that happen to both be from Egypt?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 14, 2020)

Florida173 said:


> Two different people that happen to both be from Egypt?


Ah, it was confusing to me...didn't know we had multiple Al-Masri's on the kill sheet.


----------



## Locksteady (Nov 14, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> Ah, it was confusing to me...didn't know we had multiple Al-Masri's on the kill sheet.


Easy to see why, too, considering the last link also (incorrectly) referred to Abu Muhsin as the 'second-in-command'.


----------



## Intel Nerd (Nov 15, 2020)

Good score for "Israeli Mossad."

I do recall reading his file in the West Point CTC Sentinel last year. AQ has taken a lot of hits over the last four years.


----------



## BloodStripe (Nov 15, 2020)

Some good work. Even better it took place in Iran and they are staying mum about it.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 23, 2020)

Israel PM Netanyahu secretly met with Saudi crown prince: reports​Israel PM Netanyahu secretly met with Saudi crown prince: reports


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 23, 2020)

This is really huge.  Peace agreements with Israel in the ME?! But no Nobel for Trump because he sometimes says mean things.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 23, 2020)

Blizzard said:


> This is really huge.  Peace agreements with Israel in the ME?! But no Nobel for Trump because he sometimes says mean things.


Middle East peace = good, but Orange Man = bad


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 23, 2020)

I was on another forum, there's a section that is sport specific and then another that is like our general discussion, but it's rampant with leftists, they are nuts.  This is how "libtard" (sorry, the best way to explain it) they are:



> It's likely Pompeo will be indicted before 2024. Even if he isn't, he has very little chance of taking over for Trump.



Like seriously, if Hilary didn't go to jail, nothing Pompeo has done is remotely near her.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 23, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> I was on another forum, there's a section that is sport specific and then another that is like our general discussion, but it's rampant with leftists, they are nuts.  This is how "libtard" (sorry, the best way to explain it) they are:
> 
> 
> 
> Like seriously, if Hilary didn't go to jail, nothing Pompeo has done is remotely near her.


Why would they think Pompeo is "taking over for Trump?"


----------



## Cookie_ (Nov 23, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> I was on another forum, there's a section that is sport specific and then another that is like our general discussion, but it's rampant with leftists, they are nuts.  This is how "libtard" (sorry, the best way to explain it) they are:
> 
> 
> 
> Like seriously, if Hilary didn't go to jail, nothing Pompeo has done is remotely near her.



I look forward to Biden trying to lead "lock him up" chants


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 23, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Why would they think Pompeo is "taking over for Trump?"



The preface was a comment of someone else saying that Pompeo is doing a good job and would be a decent candidate in 2024.


----------



## Brill (Nov 23, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Middle East peace = good, but Orange Man = bad


----------



## AWP (Nov 23, 2020)

Spicy hot take:

Israel: We want the ability to use your airspace and/ or bases if we have to strike Iran's nukes. What will that take?
UAE: We want F-35's.
Israel: Done.


----------



## AWP (Nov 23, 2020)

Not a big deal at all...

In threat to Iran, US sends heavy bombers to Middle East via Israel



> The United States this week rapidly deployed several heavy bombers to the Middle East this week in an apparent threat to Iran, amid swirling speculation that US President Donald Trump plans to take military action against Tehran before President-elect Joe Biden enters office.
> 
> US Central Command said the planes were sent into the region “to deter aggression and reassure US partners and allies.”
> 
> *In a highly irregular move, the B-52H Stratofortress planes were seen flying toward Israeli airspace* on Saturday en route to the base where they will be stationed, likely in Qatar. The aircraft were spotted on civilian tracking software approaching Israel before they apparently turned off their transponders, rendering them invisible on those applications.


----------



## AWP (Nov 23, 2020)

None of this matters though under the Harris-Biden administration.

Biden aide on UAE F-35 sale: Only Israel was meant to have those jets in region



> “The Obama-Biden administration made those planes available to Israel and only Israel in the region,” said Blinken, who served as Biden’s national security adviser, deputy NSA to the president and deputy secretary of state during the Obama administration.
> 
> He said that in order to preserve Israel’s qualitative military edge as current US law requires, a Biden administration would have to “take a hard look” at the F-35 sale, which the White House notified Congress of last week.



If you'll recall an earlier post of mine, Israel does not object to the sale of F-35's to the UAE.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 24, 2020)

AWP said:


> None of this matters though under the Harris-Biden administration.
> 
> Biden aide on UAE F-35 sale: Only Israel was meant to have those jets in region
> 
> ...


Have I mentioned I don't want a third Obama administration?  Yeah it's literally not good, and Blinken needs to shut up since he's been named Biden's nominee for SecState.


----------



## Brill (Nov 24, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> Have I mentioned I don't want a third Obama administration?  Yeah it's literally not good, and Blinken needs to shut up since he's been named Biden's nominee for SecState.



LOGAN ACT!!!!

Damn it, we’re not outraged at that either anymore? I’m detecting a trend here.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 24, 2020)

Fortunately, I think some of the work already done will not be undone.  For example, I don't see a new administration moving the US Embassy out of Jerusalem.  But it's likely that some things, like Palestinian funding, might be re-visited.  And I'm interested to see what new concessions will be made to the Palestinians, and what those impacts will be.


----------



## Brill (Nov 24, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> And I'm interested to see what new concessions will be made to the Palestinians, and what those impacts will be.



Loss of more blood and treasure for someone.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 24, 2020)

lindy said:


> Loss of more blood and treasure for someone.


Always.  Power is zero-sum; for someone to gain, someone else has to lose.  Politics is just about who the winners are.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 24, 2020)

Same Forum as yesterday...apparently people don't understand that arms deals get approved by Congress.



> Pompeo did a questionable 8 billion dollar arms deal with the Saudis. When the state department IG started investigating Pompeo fired him. Congress issued subpoenas to investigate, Pompeo ordered people at State not to comply. I'm looking forward to what the new Sec. and IG find. Don't think it is going to turn out well for Pompeo. This is just one example. So yea I think there are quite a few people in Trumps administration that are going to feel the weight of Justice.



Some people are really naive, the Trump administration giving Palestinians nothing is what has really pushed this forward.


> Seriously? The normalization of relations with Israel is the result of decades of work by multiple administrations. It is also naïve to call them peace deals as they were not at war and some of what is pushing them together is their mutual hatred, and desire to strike, Iran.


----------



## AWP (Nov 24, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> Same Forum as yesterday...apparently people don't understand that arms deals get approved by Congress.
> 
> 
> 
> Some people are really naive, the Trump administration giving Palestinians nothing is what has really pushed this forward.



People are stupid, but you know this already. Sadly, those morons vote. I can get behind an educated person with a difference of opinion, but not someone who blindly charges into an emotional abyss.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 24, 2020)

AWP said:


> People are stupid, but you know this already. Sadly, those morons vote. I can get behind an educated person with a difference of opinion, but not someone who blindly charges into an emotional abyss.



IMO, as a whole people are greedy, violent, stupid, and easily (mis)led.  What I've seen in the election and COVID crisis reinforces this opinion.


----------



## Brill (Nov 24, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> What I've seen in... COVID crisis reinforces this opinion.



Just wait until my FOIA is approved.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 24, 2020)

lindy said:


> Just wait until my FOIA is approved.


I'm in the middle of my first FOIA request right now...


----------



## AWP (Nov 27, 2020)

I'm starting to become an expert on the Arabian Gulf region.   

But seriously, if Saudi does this, that will be absolutely huge and even if Biden's in office, that is a Trump win.

KT special: Israeli minister optimistic about Saudi Arabia signing peace deal next



> Israel’s foreign minister Gabi Ashkenazi is optimistic about Saudi Arabia signing the Abraham Accords next, after the UAE and Bahrain.
> 
> “*Saudi Arabia is a major player in the region.* It is a very important country in the region and we are the first to recognise it, and I think it will be significant if they join,” Ashkenazi, Israel’s Minister of Foreign Affairs, told Khaleej Times in an exclusive interview on Thursday.
> 
> “I am very optimistic about it because they are already very supportive, t*hey support the UAE decision, they support the Bahraini decision.*"



As I've said from the beginning, the UAE and Bahrain didn't sign the Abraham Accords without Saudi buy-in.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 7, 2020)

So apparently there is opposition to the UAE arms deal in the Senate: Opinion | The U.A.E. Needs U.S. Arms to Ward Off Iran



> Senate opposition to the proposed U.S. arms sales to the United Arab Emirates reflects a dangerous reversion to the Obama-era understanding of the Middle East. While opponents of the deal claim that the Emirates have misused other U.S. weapons in Yemen, the real issue is much broader.
> 
> A Senate vote on legislation to halt the $23 billion arms deal is expected in days. While opposition will likely fail—even if the bill passes, supermajorities would be needed to override the expected presidential veto—the thinking behind it foreshadows an ill-advised Biden administration policy toward Iran.
> 
> ...


----------



## AWP (Dec 8, 2020)

At some point tomorrow I'll.... "rest up" and offer my thoughts on the post above...for whatever those are worth.

Short version: Senate opposition to progress made in the ME in the last few years is...

fucking stupid.

<3's!


----------



## Steve1839 (Dec 8, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> I'm in the middle of my first FOIA request right now...


Requesting or answering...?


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 8, 2020)

Steve1839 said:


> Requesting or answering...?


Requesting.  I had to deal with the answering plenty in the past.  ;)


----------



## AWP (Dec 9, 2020)

My thoughts, worth what you paid for them.

Any opposition, and I do mean any, to UAE and even the Gulf arms sales amounts to tacit support of Iran. Iran is a major player in the region and anything, ANYTHING, to weaken countries not named Iran is shortsighted or borderline criminal. Iran is a supporter/ facilitator/ enabler of terrorism throughout the region. The Harris-Biden presidency taking a soft line w/ Iran will embolden Iran and give them an ally far in excess of Qatar. Even suggesting a loosening of sanctions empowers the mullahs IMO.

One could argue the UAE has eclipsed the Saudis as our strongest ally in the Gulf. Human rights violations or not...and how many of our partners have questionable histories...The UAE is stable, pro-West, and most importantly? Location, location, location.

Selling F-35's to the UAE isn't just a message, it is a strategic imperative. Israel allowing (it can't support it and there's a difference) is so "yuge" that I doubt 99.9999% of Americans understand the implications. I know the Harris-Biden administration will fuck this up based upon some of the prospective cabinet appointment's comments.

Set side the nuke question. Iran is a major player in the Gulf and will soon, if not already, have the ability to strike Israel via TBM's. If China is Cold War 2.0, then Iran is a DLC to Cold War 2.0. An update and a patch to the Game of International Relations.

The US, and other nations, cannot and should not allow anything to improve Iran's position in the world. Iran needs internal regime change free from direct outside influence. Until then, it is just another terrorist organization.


----------



## AWP (Dec 10, 2020)

I has the psychics or something...

US Congress allows F-35 sale granting UAE major military upgrade



> A bill that would have blocked a $23 billion arms sale to the UAE failed in the US Senate on Wednesday, thereby granting the country 50 F-35 Lightning II aircraft.
> 
> The vote on the *bill proposed by Bob Menendez, a Democratic senator,* flopped by 47 to 49.



Democrats who have had a mad-on for fucking over Israel now want to block the sale because it...could harm Israel.

The Orange Man is so bad we'd suck Iran's dick to rebuke his policies.


----------



## Brill (Dec 10, 2020)

AWP said:


> Democrats who have had a mad-on for fucking over Israel now want to block the sale because it...could harm Israel.
> 
> The Orange Man is so bad we'd suck Iran's dick to rebuke his policies.


Domestic policy same same: inflict pain on ALL voters until they, both living and dead, vote the way they’re “supposed to”.


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 10, 2020)

Well, that's interesting:

_*Jordan is scrambling to affirm its custodianship of the al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem after a meeting between Israeli and Saudi leaders raised fears in Amman that the fate of one of Islam’s holiest sites could be up for grabs in a normalisation deal between the two countries.*_

Jordan scrambles to affirm its custodianship of al-Aqsa mosque


----------



## AWP (Dec 10, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Well, that's interesting:
> 
> _*Jordan is scrambling to affirm its custodianship of the al-Aqsa mosque in Jerusalem after a meeting between Israeli and Saudi leaders raised fears in Amman that the fate of one of Islam’s holiest sites could be up for grabs in a normalisation deal between the two countries.*_
> 
> Jordan scrambles to affirm its custodianship of al-Aqsa mosque



Odd story and angle, even if it is true. BUT...

The "para-dig-em" (an old Office Max commercial) has shifted in the ME and I think countries like Jordan are slow to accept the "new normal" to borrow a COVID term. Countries are starting to wake up to the fact that the Saudi-UAE relationship is the one that matters and older, traditional country's patronage is on the way out. Practically overnight Jordan went from being a player to played. The Abraham Accords are kind of a Berlin Wall moment in '89 because once those dropped, the world (in the ME) changed dramatically and almost overnight.

The Biden administration could find itself as an odd man out though. If Saudi gets on board and formally recognizes Israel while the Harris-Biden White House tries to placate Iran....yikes. The UAE will go along to get along for F-35's and when that deal is done, whoever is in the WH could find themselves with some frigid "allies" in the Gullf region.

I hate to say this, but it really looks like the UAE and Saudi have a long game, chess style, while we're playing checkers in the Gulf.

Oh, maybe I posted earlier, I forget, but Abu Dhabi announced the discovery of 22 billion barrels of land-accessible oil. That's 40 trillion-ish in oil in today's dollars. A country few have heard of is/ will be a regional player to respect.


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 10, 2020)

Saw this tweet a few minutes ago, haven't fact-checked it yet.


----------



## AWP (Dec 10, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Saw this tweet a few minutes ago, haven't fact-checked it yet.
> 
> View attachment 37375



Reuters is reporting this has happened.


----------



## Steve1839 (Dec 10, 2020)

AWP said:


> Oh, maybe I posted earlier, I forget, but Abu Dhabi announced the discovery of 22 billion barrels of land-accessible oil. That's 40 trillion-ish in oil in today's dollars. A country few have heard of is/ will be a regional player to respect.


Oil is going for around $50 a barrel these days...I don't think 22 billion barrels will get you to $40 trillion...


----------



## GOTWA (Dec 10, 2020)

AWP said:


> I hate to say this, but it really looks like the UAE and Saudi have a long game, chess style, while we're playing checkers in the Gulf.


We've always played checkers. We're about results right now rather than consequences in the future. Look how OEF is/was fought. One year at a time for most conventional forces. Six months at a time for SOCOM elements. The only continuity is the big dog at the top who eventually rotates out only to turn over to someone that has a different plan, following the direction of new administration with their own ideas. 

Shit, you could say we don't even play checkers, it's more like Jenga. 

Grandiose ideas are just that when you can't pave the architectural path to get there.


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 10, 2020)

AWP said:


> Odd story and angle, even if it is true. BUT...
> 
> The "para-dig-em" (an old Office Max commercial) has shifted in the ME and I think countries like Jordan are slow to accept the "new normal" to borrow a COVID term. Countries are starting to wake up to the fact that the Saudi-UAE relationship is the one that matters and older, traditional country's patronage is on the way out. Practically overnight Jordan went from being a player to played. The Abraham Accords are kind of a Berlin Wall moment in '89 because once those dropped, the world (in the ME) changed dramatically and almost overnight.
> 
> ...


It's always been interesting to me how tolerant Israel is of other people running the Temple Mount complex and management of certain parts of the Old City.  The Temple Mount is the home of the holiest site in Judaism.  Jews literally pray towards the Temple Mount, the same way that Muslims pray towards Mecca (Muslims used to pray towards the Temple Mount too, but that's a different story...). The Western Wall that is so familiar to people who know about Jerusalem and is so important to Judaism is part of that site. Yet they allow a non-Israeli NGO, that is funded and directed by a foreign government, to run the place administratively.

The Israelis not only left the mosque and shrine on the Temple Mount intact when they took the city, they ultimately allowed the status quo administrative control.  That allowed the Saudis to control the #1 and #2 sites in Saudi Arabia, and the Hashemites/Jordanians control of the Islamic holy sites in the #3 most-significant Islamic site, and to control most of what is the holiest site in Judaism.

I get why they do it, and that Israel ultimately has security control over the site, but they choose to give up administrative control to the waqf. Like I said, interesting to me.

(deliberately not addressing the Christian aspects of Jerusalem in this post)


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 10, 2020)

Honestly, the POTUS has done more shit to secure this country from Islamic Terrorism than many before.  Getting relations normalized with Israel and most of the Arab world will lead to a significant reduction in radicalized Muslims becoming terrorists as they will lose their whole reason to exist.

For as much as he tweeted, he gets shit done.  And I'm very fearful that the Democrats will fuck this country into oblivion when Biden takes over.


----------



## AWP (Dec 10, 2020)

Steve1839 said:


> Oil is going for around $50 a barrel these days...I don't think 22 billion barrels will get you to $40 trillion...



I guess I math as well as I admin this forum then. 

Thank you for the correction.


----------



## Steve1839 (Dec 11, 2020)

AWP said:


> I guess I math as well as I admin this forum then.


P=plenty until you have to put it in your rucksack...then P blows dead bears...


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 19, 2020)

This is some amazing progress...and again I can't wait for it to be killed in a flame ball by the Biden administration.

UAE, Bahrain delegations take part in Western Wall Hanukkah lighting ceremony


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Dec 19, 2020)

I think alot of people are making the assumption that Biden is going to take over and wreck peace in the ME. Again, there was massive blatant fraud, Trump isn't conceding and neither are 80+ million Americans. Peace in the ME is not lost, not yet. Cheer up guys and drive on.

(Mods feel free to move this post. Just figured it belonged here.)


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 19, 2020)

I expect more progress to halt the moment he's inaugurated.  The Democratic Party panders to the forrever refugee for no reason and then you have "The Squad".


----------



## AWP (Dec 21, 2020)

I'm cynical enough to think anything done by the Bad Orange Guy will be rolled back by Harris-Biden based on...Orange Man Bad. Democrats would eat metal shavings if Trump said sawdust is nutritional.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 21, 2020)

It's historically fashionable for liberals to bestow their sympathy on Palestinian causes and to be openly critical of the Israelis. The Obama-Netanyahu relationship was strained, to say the least, especially with regard to border issues and Iran. I figure Biden will pick up where Obama left off. His pick for Sec of State was part architect of our involvement in that idiotic deal.


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 30, 2020)

Israeli model to do photo spread in UAE:
Israeli Model Yael Shelbia Hopes to ‘Extend Peace in the Middle East’ After Her UAE Magazine Cover Shoot




> “As a Jewish religious, IDF soldier and a model, I’m so very honored to be the first one to participate in such a historical cover,” Shelbia, 19, told _The Algemeiner_ on Wednesday. “I hope that in the near future, we will be privileged to extend the peace in the Middle East.”


----------



## Gunz (Dec 30, 2020)

Even her eyebrows are beautiful.


----------



## GOTWA (Dec 30, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Israeli model to do photo spread in UAE:
> Israeli Model Yael Shelbia Hopes to ‘Extend Peace in the Middle East’ After Her UAE Magazine Cover Shoot
> 
> 
> ...


No, no, please, take all the secrets.


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 30, 2020)

GOTWA said:


> No, no, please, take all the secrets.


lol


----------



## Kraut783 (Dec 30, 2020)

GOTWA said:


> No, no, please, take all the secrets.



Yes Ma'am....here is my SIPR and JWICS user name and password....you need another drink?


----------



## Kaldak (Dec 30, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Israeli model to do photo spread in UAE:
> Israeli Model Yael Shelbia Hopes to ‘Extend Peace in the Middle East’ After Her UAE Magazine Cover Shoot
> 
> 
> ...





Spoiler: Weak sauce Mara..


----------



## GOTWA (Dec 30, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> Yes Ma'am....here is my SIPR and JWICS user name and password....you need another drink?


Quickest 15-6 ever.

"Did you do this?"
"Yes."
"Why?"
/shows photo
"Oh my. Cleared."


----------



## AWP (Dec 30, 2020)

GOTWA said:


> No, no, please, take all the secrets.



Fact.


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 30, 2020)

@AWP 



> There are expectations among some of Israel’s highest echelons that there will be normalization between Israel and Saudi Arabia by the end of 2021, The Jerusalem Post has learned.





Saudi Arabia-Israel normalization deal estimated within one year


----------



## Intel Nerd (Dec 31, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> @AWP
> 
> 
> 
> ...



If this keeps up I will need to find a new line of work.


----------



## Locksteady (Dec 31, 2020)

Intel Nerd said:


> If this keeps up I will need to find a new line of work.


How about cover photography for L'Officiel Arabia?


----------



## Intel Nerd (Dec 31, 2020)

Locksteady said:


> How about cover photography for L'Officiel Arabia?


Only the Thursday editions.


----------



## GOTWA (Dec 31, 2020)

Intel Nerd said:


> If this keeps up I will need to find a new line of work.


To Africa!


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 31, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> @AWP
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Two things could happen here.  The incoming POTUS fucks that up to high hell, or takes credit for it and gets the Nobel Peace prize.


----------



## Kaldak (Dec 31, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> gets the Nobel Peace prize.



He get's this for his VP pick.


----------



## Intel Nerd (Dec 31, 2020)

GOTWA said:


> To Africa!


I'd love to go back and frankly the G5 Sahel and French are losing badly to JNIM. That's for another topic though.

It'll be interesting to watch the traditional alliances shift in favor of an Arab-Israeli coalition against Iran and other actors..


----------



## Locksteady (Dec 31, 2020)

Intel Nerd said:


> It'll be interesting to watch the traditional alliances shift in favor of an Arab-Israeli coalition against Iran and other actors..


Yes, and I think it will also be interesting to see the extent to which other NENA countries ignore UAE's pivot and drift further away from normalizing relations with Israel - especially those sharing a common enemy with Israel in Iran.


----------



## AWP (Dec 31, 2020)

@Marauder06 I know this is a little gauche but....told ya' so!

I can't wait for Harris-Biden to fuck this up. I am dead serious. The only way they don't is if they can spin it to their advantage and yes, I am next level cynical.



Locksteady said:


> Yes, and I think it will also be interesting to see the extent to which other NENA countries ignore UAE's pivot and drift further away from normalizing relations with Israel - especially those sharing a common enemy with Israel in Iran.


I had to look up MENA countries. The Bold have already normalized relations w/ Israel.

Algeria, *Bahrain*, *Egypt*, Iraq, *Jordan*, Kuwait, Lebanon, Libya, Yemen, Mauritania, *Morocco*, Oman, Qatar, Saudi Arabia, *Sudan*, Syria, Tunisia and the *United Arab Emirates*.

There aren't many MENA nations left to ignore the UAE pivot. Iraq, Yemen, Qatar, and Syria (probably add Libya and Kuwait) won't follow the UAE and others, but the rest will fall in line or are non-events. Some of the players above could come into the fold in upcoming years (Algeria and Libya).

More importantly, this is as much about real estate as it is anything else: location, location, location. Once Saudi and Oman join up (inevitable in my opinion), you'll have most of the Arabian Gulf nations onboard. You'll also have substantially-sized militaries in Egypt and Jordan who even if they don't take up arms against Iran, they won't join a fight either.

Funny how we've discussed an anti-China NATO-esque organization...the anti-Iran coalition seems to be forming up quite well.

---

Cynical world view/ conspiracy theory time: I've long said Saudi approved all of this...what if it instigated the pro-Israel pivot? Have smaller Islamic nations sign the Abraham Accords so Saudi can judge the reactions of its citizens and the world's?  Now you have it "leak" that you could sign by the end of 2021...let it marinate and see what happens. A litmus test. You have Trump take point on "negotiating the deal" so as to hide your role in aligning with the hated Jews.


----------



## AWP (Dec 31, 2020)

I'm glad I'm on vacation. It is always fun to be at work when we do stuff like this:

U.S. flies B-52 bombers over Persian Gulf as show of force against Iran


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 31, 2020)

Locksteady said:


> Yes, and I think it will also be interesting to see the extent to which other NENA countries ignore UAE's pivot and *drift further away* from normalizing relations with Israel - especially those sharing a common enemy with Israel in Iran.


Anything can happen, especially with a new administration on the way in.  But I'm guessing... none of them?

To add to AWP's post, Mauritania had formal relations with Israel until about ten years ago. They broke relations after Israel's 2009 Gaza op (and also after a coup in the country). Now that the bloom is off the Palestinian rose, and other Arab countries are making the change, I expect Mauritania would also be willing to come back around, especially if they want to continue to get that sweet, sweet US foreign aid. I can see Tunisia and Oman getting on board as well.

Libya, Qatar (maybe?), Syria, Lebanon, Yemen and Iraq will be tougher due to their relationships with Iran. The good news is, their relationships with Israel can't get much worse so it's hard to see how most of them would get "further away" simply because other Arab nations are getting closer.

At the end of the day, most of the most-influential Arab nations are getting behind the normalization efforts.  The tide has shifted.  It has been a long time coming, but one of the major reasons we are where we are in this moment is because of President Trump's bold decision to move the US Embassy to Jerusalem combined with his strong action against Iran.  That gave other nations the last pieces of they needed to assemble their own policy to move in this direction.


----------



## AWP (Dec 31, 2020)

Oh, for those of you old enough to remember the Cold War...

BET YOU MISS THAT MOTHERFUCKER NOW, HUH?

Kinda' wish we could send Trump back in time with some of that border wall money to help Gorby keep his maintained. Hell, if we're going to give PK money for "gender studies" then giving the East Germans the same to scrub the graffiti off of their wall is a bargain. Get Doc Brown and the DeLorean, I have solutions.


----------



## Locksteady (Dec 31, 2020)

AWP said:


> Kinda' wish we could send Trump back in time with some of that border wall money to help Gorby keep his maintained. Hell, if we're going to give PK money for "gender studies" then giving the East Germans the same to scrub the graffiti off of their wall is a bargain. Get Doc Brown and the DeLorean, I have solutions.


So in this movie we send Biff's character inspiration back in time to alter the present Make America Great Again this time instead of Biff himself?

I'd watch that sequel.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Dec 31, 2020)

Locksteady said:


> So in this movie we send Biff's character inspiration back in time to alter the present Make America Great Again this time instead of Biff himself?
> 
> I'd watch that sequel.



If Biff was the billionaire rather than the windshield wax guy. Sure.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 31, 2020)

.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jan 5, 2021)

I seriously can't read the liberal media takes on this, they're trashy as hell.  So I'm just gonna go with Lindsey Graham's tweets.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1346549100314046467


----------



## AWP (Jan 5, 2021)

Our efforts in the Gulf are totally not worthy of the Nobel Peace Prize...


----------



## Brill (Jan 5, 2021)

AWP said:


> Our efforts in the Gulf are totally not worthy of the Nobel Peace Prize...


Biden was nominated. Shoe in.


----------



## AWP (Jan 5, 2021)

lindy said:


> Biden was nominated. Shoe in.



What difference does it make?


----------



## ODgreen (Jan 18, 2021)

A word on the Abraham Accords:

Something I have observed from my experiences, travels, and many relationships with Palestinians/Muslims/Arabs is the disconnect between what their governments accomplish versus what the "people" think and say. Angst and fury against Israel has only been growing, not dissipating. Sheiks and Imams are gearing up their flocks for _yajuj w'majuj, _"Gog and Magog". For those who skipped Sunday school, that is the giant shit sandwich that humanity will all take a bite of when _apokálypsis _occurs- lit. "uncovering".

Palestinian dogma is especially unique in this regard. Many imam's tell them that there are 72 groups of Muslims in the world and that 71 of these groups are _kuffar- "_infidels"_- _and that the Palestinians are the singular group that will attain salvation. Shi'a dogma has its own headspace for its end-of-the-world scenario and its just another freight train self-fulfilling its own train tracks towards prophesy. The common denominator of all these Islamic dogmas is that Jews will be the big bad wolf that needs to be slaughtered to bring peace to the world.

*Historical tangent- its related, I swear! *

Historically speaking, Islam was a religion that disdained government yet at the same time had and still has no concept of separation of Mosque and State. From its inception it placed an unrealistic ideal before society that precludes an "Islamic Government", yet instead of deal with the discrepancy Islam shattered itself to pieces in the disagreements that followed Mohammed's death. This wasn't just a Shi'a-Sunni split; myriads of religions and sects sprang up only to be crushed. When you add this paradigm to the social fabric of the Middle East- namely developed city-states enriched by trade routes- you get a situation where Muslim strongmen place themselves over pre-existing power structures and leech their resources from a suspicious and recalcitrant population.

These emirs did not recruit their power bases from this recalcitrant population. They purchased slaves, converted them to Islam, trained and educated them and employed them as heavy cavalry. This meant that an emir was almost wholly disconnected from his fiefdom. Because government and politics literally took place inside of the mosque, the fellahin and urbanite population only knew who was ruling them based on who the Imam blessed during the _jumah, _"Friday Prayers". This could change blindingly quickly.

*Tangent over.*

What all of this means is that these Abraham Accords, at least according to what I know and see, are the machinations of bribery and manipulation. I'm not saying it's a bad thing- fake allies are better than no allies. What I am suggesting is that these accords are actually super fucking dangerous because we are slipping more shooty guns and advanced machinery into the hands of governments that will most likely fall if true democracy actually happens in the Middle East. Egyptians voted in the Muslim Brotherhood, after all, when they had the chance given to them.


----------



## Locksteady (Jan 18, 2021)

ODgreen said:


> A word on the Abraham Accords:
> 
> Something I have observed from my experiences, travels, and many relationships with Palestinians/Muslims/Arabs is the disconnect between what their governments accomplish versus what the "people" think and say. Angst and fury against Israel has only been growing, not dissipating. Sheiks and Imams are gearing up their flocks for _yajuj w'majuj, _"Gog and Magog". For those who skipped Sunday school, that is the giant shit sandwich that humanity will all take a bite of when _apokálypsis _occurs- lit. "uncovering".
> 
> ...


Do you think that Israel's interest in engaging potential trading opportunities superseded its concern about the dangers you mention in the last paragraph - perhaps something borne of its own projection of that potential danger to the nation - and if so, do you think it (the decision and/or the projection about the danger) reflects a critical oversight?

If it reflects a critical oversight, what do you think caused Israel to make it, and why?


----------



## ODgreen (Jan 18, 2021)

Answered in a PM.


----------



## ODgreen (Jan 18, 2021)

Locksteady said:


> If it reflects a critical oversight, what do you think caused Israel to make it, and why?



To keep the thread moving and address at least part of this question, I will say that Israel is not a country that makes oversights easily.

The interesting thing about Israel is that they know _everything._ Mossad is one of the most voracious intelligence organizations in the world. Because of the international nature of Jewry, loyal agents are a dime a dozen. This has given Mossad an unparalleled edge in intelligence operations, and their signature is found in many of the strangest places.

What Israel does, at least geo-politically speaking, is a well-thought out path that considers intelligence that none of us will probably ever know.

That being said, the appearance of a thing doesn't truly entail its nature.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 18, 2021)

Locksteady said:


> Do you think that Israel's interest in engaging potential trading opportunities superseded its concern about the dangers you mention in the last paragraph - perhaps something borne of its own projection of that potential danger to the nation - and if so, do you think it (the decision and/or the projection about the danger) reflects a critical oversight?
> 
> If it reflects a critical oversight, what do you think caused Israel to make it, and why?


I'm not going to address Israel specifically, because I think ODGreen is much better-suited to address that than I.  As far as trade vs. security, I'm reminded of Economic Interdependence and the Trade Expectations Theory of International Relations.  Basically, if countries think they're going to make a lot of money through each other in the future, the potential for conflict is lessened.

In more recent literature, there are insights such as this:



> a new network model analysis of international alliances suggests that trade may be at least part of the answer. The model, developed by Stanford economist Matthew O. Jackson and economics Ph.D. candidate Stephen Nei, suggests that military alliances alone aren't enough to stop nations from attacking one other, and also that the addition of multilateral economic trade creates a more stable, peaceful world.
> Matthew O. Jackson: Can Trade Prevent War?



So, by taking an up-front security risk by promoting better trade, a country might make significant long-term security gains.


----------



## ODgreen (Jan 18, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> So, by taking an up-front security risk by promoting better trade, a country might make significant long-term security gains.


That's a solid take, no doubt about it. Since the mercantile class pulls so many strings, it is logical to assume they would at least attempt to pump the brakes on international conflict between their business partners.

Something that I learned, however, is that this isn't always the case.

Standard Oil: Axis Ally

Standard Oil was caught doing business with IG Farben before and during WWII. It was also common practice in Europe during the 17th and 18th centuries that bankers would finance both sides of a conflict. I will search for links to illuminate the latter claim.

edit: The Rothschild Gang: Shadow Conspiracy Or Rumor? edit: this is a Business Insider article, not alienabductionsandbigfoot.net. lol, ignore the title.

I think both paradigms are happening: tried and true mercantile ties throwing water on a conflict because of $$$, and nefarious mercantile ties that sell to the enemy because of $$$.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 18, 2021)

ODgreen said:


> ...Because of the international nature of Jewry, loyal agents are a dime a dozen. This has given Mossad an unparalleled edge in intelligence operations, and their signature is found in many of the strangest places....



Yes. _Sayanim_. Everywhere.

BTW PM inbound.


----------



## ODgreen (Jan 18, 2021)

Gunz said:


> Yes. _Sayanim_. Everywhere.


Bingo.

Also the _katza, _the fixers, are unparalleled. Have you read Gideon's Spies? I heartily recommend that all of you read this book if you haven't already.

Jews are a tightknit group and are inculcated with a hard-wired survival instinct that makes us come together tighter than any other people on Earth. Having Jews in almost literally every corner of the world means that a loyal, unwavering pool of agents exists at Mossad's fingertips. They have so many to chose from that they really do get to cream the crop of 16+ million people (Jewish population of Earth, roughly, not counting the Space Jews controlling the universe with their Zionist guiles).

edit: "fixer" might not be the right translation of _katza_. "case officer" is what wikipedia says. not sure if there is a difference.


----------



## Locksteady (Jan 18, 2021)

ODgreen said:


> Bingo.
> 
> Also the _katza, _the fixers, are unparalleled. Have you read Gideon's Spies? I heartily recommend that all of you read this book if you haven't already.
> 
> ...


If you're referring to them as the Mossad equivalent to a CIA ops officer that recruits agents, then case officer would ostensibly be the ideal translation.

In English, fixer is a colloquial term used to refer to someone (often in organized crime or grey-area relationships with legal entities) who 'cleans up' or 'fixes' problems related to the hiring group/person.  Most often the person hired is an unaffiliated (at least on the surface) cut-out used to avoid association with the sponsoring group/person.  Some pop culture examples would include "The Wolf" from Pulp Fiction (cleans up a murder scene) and "Olivia Pope" from Scandal (cleans up political reputations and fixes potential scandals before they get to that level).

This broad definition of 'fixing/cleaning' can obviously include other, more overtly criminal activities, too ('Leon' from 'The Professional' is a hitman who is a 'cleaner' for the Mafia), so your mileage may vary on whether or not the definition can extend to katsa based on the activities they are licensed to do by Mossad, and also the extent to which the government does not want such activities to be associated with its professional intelligence officers.


----------



## ODgreen (Jan 18, 2021)

Locksteady said:


> Most often the person hired is an unaffiliated (at least on the surface)



"...little did the befuddled agents know that the suited man standing before them holding a briefcase, known only as Jeff to the world around him,  was actually Shmuel Rabinovitz of Lakewood New Jersey. The "Oy" had arrived, and he wasted no time in taking their orders for breakfast at the Bagel Shack."


----------



## RackMaster (Jan 18, 2021)

Locksteady said:


> If you're referring to them as the Mossad equivalent to a CIA ops officer that recruits agents, then case officer would ostensibly be the ideal translation.
> 
> In English, fixer is a colloquial term used to refer to someone (often in organized crime or grey-area relationships with legal entities) who 'cleans up' or 'fixes' problems related to the hiring group/person.  Most often the person hired is an unaffiliated (at least on the surface) cut-out used to avoid association with the sponsoring group/person.  Some pop culture examples would include "The Wolf" from Pulp Fiction (cleans up a murder scene) and "Olivia Pope" from Scandal (cleans up political reputations and fixes potential scandals before they get to that level).
> 
> This broad definition of 'fixing/cleaning' can obviously include other, more overtly criminal activities, too ('Leon' from 'The Professional' is a hitman who is a 'cleaner' for the Mafia), so your mileage may vary on whether or not the definition can extend to katsa based on the activities they are licensed to do by Mossad, and also the extent to which the government does not want such activities to be associated with its professional intelligence officers.



Not that it's relevant but "fixer" is also used in the travel and entertainment industries.  Usually a local with extensive knowledge and connections to make arrangements before and during the stay.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 18, 2021)

I use "fixer" often when I'm describing someone who knows how to make things happen for me as a guide or helper, especially overseas.


----------



## Locksteady (Jan 18, 2021)

RackMaster said:


> Not that it's relevant but "fixer" is also used in the travel and entertainment industries.  Usually a local with extensive knowledge and connections to make arrangements before and during the stay.


I debated saying "in this context" in anticipation of a post like this, but yes the colloquialism isn't limited to @ODgreen's context, and can have more benign connotations.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 18, 2021)

We definitely had a "fixer" when we'd go into Bethlehem and Ramallah.  Well, I didn't get to go to Ramallah because of DoD restrictions, but most of the rest of the students got to go.


----------



## ODgreen (Jan 18, 2021)

My realization of what a "fixer" is: 





Never fixed for a government- at least I don't think I did- but I can definitely fix you up with the best grilled chicken in Beit Jalla, a Christian suburb of Bethlehem. You get a half chicken, a bunch of salads like hoomos and eggplant, and enough pita to choke a horse. That fat fuck Ariel Sharon used to send his driver to this joint and buy them out of grilled chickens.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 18, 2021)

> “Instead of nurturing young Palestinians with the knowledge that they will need to lead satisfying and productive lives as citizens in a future Palestinian state, UNRWA is feeding their hearts and minds with the poison of racism and violent extremism,” said Peter Wertheim, CEO of the Executive Council of Australian Jewry, to the Australian daily on Monday. “It is time for Australia to look for new, more constructive partners through which to channel its assistance.”



Good on Australia.

Australian Government Probes UNRWA After Watchdog Report Reveals Antisemitic Educational Materials


----------



## ODgreen (Jan 18, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> Australian Government Probes UNRWA After Watchdog Report Reveals Antisemitic Educational Materials



It's about damn time. 

Something interesting a Palestinian-turned-Jewish friend told me was that he and his father before him were counted in a census by the UN. Apparently the UN extended refugee status to all male descendants, which is unprecedented as far as I know. What this did was ensure the problem would never go away. An initial wave of approx. 800,000 thousand refugees is now 5,000,000. 

We in Israel see the United Nations as a joke. I myself view them as much worse than a joke. I don't think this shit is accidental. It just reeks of fish.


----------



## AWP (Jan 23, 2021)

What about those F-35's to the UAE...

UAE confirms $23b F-35 deal



> The UAE confirmed that it signed agreements with the United States on former President Donald Trump’s last full day in office to purchase up to 50 F-35 jets, 18 armed drones and other defence equipment in a deal worth $23 billion.



If there was ever a deal worth a middle finger to an incoming administration, this is it. With that said, doesn't Congress have to sign off on this?


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 23, 2021)

AWP said:


> What about those F-35's to the UAE...
> 
> UAE confirms $23b F-35 deal
> 
> ...



I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think these kinds of deals with foreign powers are squarely within the purview of the Executive Branch. I think if we were buying from them it might be different, but in this case I think it was the President's decision to make.

Now, I also think it might be within the current President's power to un-make...


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 23, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> I'm not 100% sure on this, but I think these kinds of deals with foreign powers are squarely within the purview of the Executive Branch. I think if we were buying from them it might be different, but in this case I think it was the President's decision to make.
> 
> Now, I also think it might be within the current President's power to un-make...


This might be the answer:

Powers of the president of the United States - Wikipedia.

Through the Department of State and the Department of Defense, the president is responsible for the protection of Americans abroad and of foreign nationals in the United States. The president decides whether to recognize new nations and new governments,[47] and negotiate treaties with other nations, which become binding on the United States when approved by two-thirds of the Senate. T*he president may also negotiate executive agreements with foreign powers that are not subject to Senate confirmation.*[48]


----------



## ODgreen (Jan 23, 2021)

Do you guys remember the shit-show with Qatar back in 2017? Qatar diplomatic crisis - Wikipedia

There were reasons given for why this occurred, but I heavily salt all Middle Eastern dishes that come to my table, if you know what I mean. Before I could even request that someone pass me the salt, this happened: Trump sells Qatar $12 billion of U.S. weapons days after accusing it of funding terrorism

It buggers all reasoning. Qatar is roughly 10% Shi'a whereas neighboring Bahrain is 75% Shi'a ruled by a Sunni minority, yet Bahrain was included in the coalition against Qatar. Qatar was/is the biggest contributor to Hamas, so it is possible that the pressure was because of American and Israeli intrigues, however the intrigues happening right now are laughably Byzantine: Mossad said to ask Qatar to keep funneling cash to Gaza in deescalation effort. I'm certainly not denigrating the strategy of hurling sacks of gold (dollars) and virgin princesses (shooty guns) at the Turks and the Arabs so they get the fuck off of our walls- it kept Constantinople alive for a while- but we are not some beleaguered entity fighting for survi- wait... hm. Not gonna lie, that sounds a bit like Israel. 

I don't think this is the case. Israel gets manipulated just as much as the Arabs do, it's just manipulation of a different caliber. I'm definitely not the type of person who would deny proof if someone showed me indisputable evidence that the Yids are pulling the strings; all I'm saying is that I don't get a check in the mail, so if Space Jews are actually what's up can someone please inform the Elders of Zion that my annuity is late.

Its reasonable to assume that Qatar addressed the demands of the coalition and made a sharp turn to facilitate the arms deal, but I still wonder: what were the real agreements being made? As Marauder showed us, these deals occur without much citizen oversight and so they get pushed through based on prerogatives that may or may not be openly discussed. 

The weapons the USA is funneling into the region have been appearing in the hands of terrorists since the 80's, yet most recently popping up in Libya, Yemen, and Syria:

American Weapons in the Wrong Hands
C.I.A. Arms for Syrian Rebels Supplied Black Market, Officials Say (Published 2016)


These arms deals not only threaten the lives of American soldiers, they threaten the lives of Israeli soldiers and Kurdish soldiers as well. It is true that the explosives set off on me and my guys were purpose-built Iranian shaped-charge devices, but up in Rojava they lost a lot of people to weapons originating from our side of the manufacturing process. 

From what I can see, the whole reason for all of this is "Balance of Power" and "gearing up one side to smash the other". One term is diplomatic, the other is inflammatory yet they are one and the same. Iran might cozy up with Russia and China to where the true force disposition of the enemy turns from "Iran" to "Iran-Russia-China". On the surface that is what this all looks like, but I've heard some things that suggest other reasons.


----------



## AWP (Jan 23, 2021)

Random thoughts thought can be tied inito a larger narrative...

Either '06 or '08, I was in a taxi in Doha. The driver and I had a conversation that resulted in him saying something like "The older guys here like the US, but the younger guys are more radical. In a few years the old guys will be gone and the young guys will be in charge." Huh...here we are a decade-ish removed and the taxi driver was right.

Qatar and Bahrain have the smallest GDP's of the Gulf nations and the smallest oil reserves (along with Oman). Qatar has gone its own way, but finds itself increasingly isolated on many fronts. Money talks, bullshit walks. What the GCC nations did was essentially ask Qatar how much bullshit do they want. When sheikhs wake up and find their bank accounts are missing a comma, they reconsider their positions in life...

"Money talks, bullshit walks." Part of the Abraham Accords is simply money and I'm fine with that. If money keeps nations from killing each other, keeping that sweet, sweet crude flowing to the West, show them the money.

With that said, F-35's can do things money cannot. Money doesn't permanently turn off Improved Hawks and SA-5's. F-35's however...

I'd probably have to dig and think on the different levels and angles and "stuff and things" that brought an end to the GCC v. Qatar standoff to an end. I could be wrong, but I think the easiest explanation may be right: money and isolation. One is a fix now, the other is devastating later. Qatar probably wants some of that Big Western Defense Energy in -35's or 4+-gen fighters, we may not see that "ask" for another year or two, but it is coming. The US won't give Qatar F-35's, but I also don't see Qatar's shopping list to be insignificant.

"With us or against us." Qatar may well have seen the light and realized that even sitting at Iran's lunch table was a way to incur the wrath of the mean girls. Chop a nation's trade, drop a comma from a sheikh's bank account, suddenly you have their attention.

Qatar may have decided that backing or being even friends with Iran was too much to bear. I wouldn't be surprised if the Saudis and Emiratis explained to Qatar the results of even passive support of Iran during a conflict.

I could come up with more if I thought about this longer. I may well be wrong on some points, but you don't see see winning chess moves without seeing the losing moves. Maybe this post provides some of each.

Daily reset in Destiny 2. Time to go fuck some kids.


----------



## ODgreen (Jan 23, 2021)

AWP said:


> Time to go fuck some kids.





edit: couldn't fucking help myself.


----------



## RackMaster (Jan 23, 2021)

AWP said:


> Daily reset in Destiny 2. Time to go fuck some kids.




I thought kid fucking was Thursday in that part of the world.


----------



## ODgreen (Jan 23, 2021)

AWP said:


> Either '06 or '08, I was in a taxi in Doha. The driver and I had a conversation that resulted in him saying something like "The older guys here like the US, but the younger guys are more radical. In a few years the old guys will be gone and the young guys will be in charge." Huh...here we are a decade-ish removed and the taxi driver was right.


 The older guys could be bought with luxury, also. I guess when you reach a certain age, scruples in your heart are superseded by the Rolex on the wrist. Many of the die-hards in the PLO did just that- died hard and at a young age, leaving more "diplomatic people" to carry on the leadership.


*Anecdote to elucidate socio-economic reality in a Middle Eastern polity:*
The wealth is accumulated in the hands of a small percentage of Palestinians and their children, meaning that most are heavily disenfranchised. I worked a checkpoint north of Ramallah and one of the villages near us was predominantly ex-pats. Argentinian, Brazilian, American passports... I had an expensive car with a family from Alabama in it roll up to the checkpoint once.  The patriarch in the backseat was from the village but everyone under the age of 50 was born outside of the Holy Land. Not gonna lie, being shown all those passports lubricated their way out of questions and searches. Also, fact of the matter is that when a van pulls up absolutely stuffed with WIFI routers in boxes, you know that something is being smuggled and it could even by a receiver or a full gun. Here's the thing: every family owns a weapon. It's the culture. We would roll through villages on patrol regularly just to hear the village erupt in gunfire later that evening during a wedding. There is a tremendous amount of restraint on everyone's part. We wave the van through without searching it because traffic is backed up two miles into Ramallah but we also don't search it because they need a steam release to keep them from becoming so desperate that those weapons are turned on us while we waltz through their village. It's an unspoken agreement. 

Much of the weapons flowing into the hands of third-parties happens due to authorities bribing tribal polities to help them fight against whomever. Ahmed in Yemen receiving a dushka on a Toyota truck to blast Mahmud of the neighboring clan into pieces doesn't necessarily threaten Israel, but all this talk of F-35's has got my Jewy sense tingling. Those toys better have an "off" switch and I would even guess that Israel is working on it already.


----------



## ODgreen (Jan 23, 2021)

RackMaster said:


> I thought kid fucking was Thursday in that part of the world.


Funny enough, Nablus is infamous for being a hotbed of homosexuality. There is an Ottoman/Roman bath in Nablus and I went with a buddy to visit it. We both pretended to be from Alaska and whenever kids ran up to us we just kept repeating the word "Alaska" at each other until people walked away: "Alask'kaska kaslakasa Alaskas" so on and so forth. We were both Jews and I was from Texas- people immediately cried "Bush!" when I mentioned I was from Texas, but who the fuck knew where Alaska was? We were basically Finnish. Finland doesn't exist in most people's minds. 

Anyways the steam rooms had lots of young boys hanging around. It flew completely over my 19 year old head but one of the young boys kept putting his arm and leg on my friend, who understood then that it was a den of pederasty. Later on a Palestinian friend of mine informed me that to call someone "Nablusi" ("From Nablus") is to call that person a homo.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 27, 2021)

Acting US ambassador to UN: PLO mission to be reopened



> Washington’s Mideast policy “will be to support a mutually agreed, two-state solution, in which Israel lives in peace and security, alongside a viable Palestinian state,” said Mills, adding that *a peace deal must be agreed to by both Israelis and Palestinians*.



I'm pretty sure the last two words mean there will never be a deal.


----------



## Kaldak (Jan 27, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> Acting US ambassador to UN: PLO mission to be reopened
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure the last *two* words mean there will never be a deal.



You mean three.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jan 27, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> Acting US ambassador to UN: PLO mission to be reopened
> 
> 
> 
> I'm pretty sure the last two words mean there will never be a deal.



So I was right, the Biden administration would literally light all progress made in the middle east in the last four years on fire.  

The thing I don't understand with this.  Jews as a block vote en masse Democratic.  And the Democrats in the last 20 years have definitely not Championed policy that works well for this voting block.


----------



## Kaldak (Jan 27, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> The thing I don't understand with this.  Jews as a block vote en masse Democratic.  And the Democrats in the last 20 years have definitely not Championed policy that works well for this voting block.



Source?


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 27, 2021)

Kaldak said:


> Source?



FYI:  Jewish Voting Record in U.S. Presidential Elections


----------



## Cookie_ (Jan 27, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> So I was right, the Biden administration would literally light all progress made in the middle east in the last four years on fire.



It's probably the dumbest "orange man bad" take this new admin has had so far, and that's saying something.



ThunderHorse said:


> The thing I don't understand with this. Jews as a block vote en masse Democratic. And the Democrats in the last 20 years have definitely not Championed policy that works well for this voting block.



Do you think all American Jews are Zionists?
Have to remember "Jew" is both a race and religion; it might be true that most Southern Baptists vote the same, but you wouldn't argue all black people do.

Because there are definitely a good amount of secular/ethnic Jews who are pro two state solution in this country.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jan 27, 2021)

Cookie_ said:


> It's probably the dumbest "orange man bad" take this new admin has had so far, and that's saying something.
> 
> Do you think all American Jews are Zionists?
> 
> ...


 
Yes I know that being a Jew is both race and religion.  The secular/limited synagogue attendance types I know are definitely not pro-palestine for the simple fact of terrorism.  I'm sure a Secular Jew that is pro two state solution may exist, but they are a minority.

ETA: Based on the record setting EO pace that Biden is on, his entire policy for this term is just "opposite Trump" even if it doesn't make sense.


----------



## Brill (Jan 27, 2021)

Cookie_ said:


> Have to remember "Jew" is both a race and religion; *it might be true that most Southern Baptists vote the same*, but you wouldn't argue all black people do.


What exactly does that mean?

Do you think We’re too stupid to learn about issues and just vote “cuz da pastor say to”?


----------



## Cookie_ (Jan 27, 2021)

Brill said:


> What exactly does that mean?
> 
> *Do you think We’re too stupid to learn about issues and just vote “cuz da pastor say to”?*



Not at all. 

I'm saying that members of religious group tend to hold more similar ideals than members of a racial group alone do.

I could have used any specific denomination and still made the same point; I just happened to have a conversation about denominations at work today with three Southern Baptists is all.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 27, 2021)

I don't think it's accurate to call Judaism a "race."  IMO it's more of an ethnicity.


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## AWP (Jan 27, 2021)

Dafuq is wrong with y'all? 

Most Israelis are Jewish.

Not all Jews are Israeli.

Do some of you just want to argue? This isn't Facebook...


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## Locksteady (Jan 27, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> I'm sure a Secular Jew that is pro two state solution may exist, but they are a minority.


This has not been the case in America for a while now.

American Jews Overwhelmingly Back Two-State Solution
AJC 2019 Survey of American Jewish Opinion
AJC Surveys of American Jewish Opinion

Are you wanting us to take what you're saying as anecdotal, or do you have something more to support what you are saying?


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## Polar Bear (Jan 27, 2021)

AWP said:


> Do some of you just want to argue?


yes, now go back to your hole, I hate you


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 27, 2021)

Locksteady said:


> This has not been the case in America for a while now.
> 
> American Jews Overwhelmingly Back Two-State Solution
> AJC 2019 Survey of American Jewish Opinion
> ...



Survey design is awesome, you can ask the question five different ways in order to get five different answers.  But the data you posted, some of the answers were direct opposites of what you posit.  While some did support your possible POV that Jews favor a two state solution.  Generally, it's a significantly more nuanced conversation that doesn't really work well in surveys.

ETA: @AWP  didn't see your post.  Roger that.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 27, 2021)

Locksteady said:


> This has not been the case in America for a while now.
> 
> American Jews Overwhelmingly Back Two-State Solution
> AJC 2019 Survey of American Jewish Opinion
> ...


Ya know man, and I hope everyone understands, but this conversation is already giving me the "Danger Danger Will Robinson" vibe and I can close my eyes and see the inevitable car wreck happening in slow motion.

Let's not do that tonight?  Take it to PM or think about whether or not this is a path worth going down?

- Locked for 24 hours -


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 28, 2021)

Open for business. 

Please read post #1 and post #2 in this thread before participating in this conversation. 

The Israel / PalestineThread - Read post#1 and post#2.


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## ODgreen (Jan 28, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> I'm pretty sure the last two words mean there will never be a deal.


"...and Palestinians" can be replaced with "...and AIDS" and the sentence is still basically sound. Nothing good comes of either.



ThunderHorse said:


> The thing I don't understand with this. Jews as a block vote en masse Democratic. And the Democrats in the last 20 years have definitely not Championed policy that works well for this voting block.


Its true. Most American Jews vote Democrat and hold generally leftist views of Israel. Most American Jews are also "Jew-ish" and don't really represent the mainstream impetus of Jewish momentum; intermarriage rates are well above 50 percent in the United States. Integrated Jews make good statistics, though! Lots of cannon fodder for genocides and an almost repeat-scene of whole Jewish ethnic groups literally falling on their swords when their neighbors descend upon them like wolves. Read a book called "The Pity of it All" by Amos Elon describing the meteoric rise of secular Jewish life in Germany- reform Judaism was even founded in Germany. This just demonstrates the disconnect Jews often have with their host governments.



Cookie_ said:


> Do you think all American Jews are Zionists?


The Jewish Agency has funded shit tons of Birthright trips, which introduce/indoctrinate Jewish youth to life in Israel, and I think this has staved off a near total collapse of young American Jewry's support of Israel; however, university campuses are getting more radical and its taboo to support Israel, so these are closeted Zionists and are few in number. Other than this, Jews are often the most "radical compassionates" I can think of. Jews are overwhelming represented in the fields of medicine; Israel is the most vegan country in the world, per capita. Jews have an extremely strong sense of justice- not surprising, considering Jewish obsession with law. This explains why Jews heavily supported the civil rights movement when not many "white people" would touch it, and also explains why Jews heavily support Palestinians except in this case they don't fully grasp the situation and are just fooled into taking up a cause they know almost nothing about.



Cookie_ said:


> Have to remember "Jew" is both a race and religion


Yes and no. Genetics have illuminated a lot of interesting stuff about this- I can't find links right now but I implore everyone to look into it if you are interested in the subject. Basically, Jews were very isolated from their neighbors for a long time, making them genetically isolated as well. Our paternal DNA originates from the Near East; I myself am Ashkenazic, and this population came from Near Eastern merchants who traveled up the Rhine River during the early medieval period and married local women who converted to Judaism. Some populations of Jews are racially distinct and even suffer from diseases brought on by centuries of narrow gene pools. Of course, invasions brought rape so Jews were "injected" with foreign DNA periodically.


Why do you guys think "Jew" is both our name and also an ironic pejorative? As an old rabbi once told me: "A Jew gave the world the 10 Commandments and a Jew is the one pulling them down." (Referring to the Jewish lawyer who fought for the stone carvings of the 10 commandments to be removed from a courthouse). Jews are responsible for some of the most energetic leaps humanity has ever taken- Karl Marx gave us communism, Einstein gave us nuclear energy, Sarah Silverman gave us tits and comedy in a perfect package. From Moses to Mel Brooks to Sigmund Freud, someone needs to clearly put a bunch of ancient books in front of a Jews face otherwise they start making communism and nukes. Sorry about that.


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 16, 2022)

A bit connected to my post on Biden in Saudi Arabia.  Biden was supposed to go to Israel and bolster that partnership after it had degraded rapidly in the first 20 months of his presidency.  To the point where Israel was working with Russia at the beginning of the bloody Ukrainian War. The beginning of the trip apparently was pretty solid, he helped present medals at the Maccabiah Games and such. 

Well, then the dipshit goes something along the lines of, I'm Irish, so I identify with the Palestinian people.  And then we just committed $316 Million to the PLO...wtf. U.S. announces $316M for Palestinians as Biden visits West Bank

Link to actual remarks...but helping the Palestinians with Cash money has only just extended their terrorism and promoted stupidity in our own politics, see _the squad._


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## pardus (Oct 31, 2022)

Great job!


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586618625758314497


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## pardus (Nov 5, 2022)

Things are going to get very interesting in this region…


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588605749546082304


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 5, 2022)

pardus said:


> Things are going to get very interesting in this region…
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1588605749546082304


A great way to de-escalate Blinken is to stop giving aid to the Palestinians!


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## DA SWO (Nov 5, 2022)

pardus said:


> Great job!
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1586618625758314497


Love or laugh.
I love he took the piece of shit out, I LOL'd at him backing up and hitting him a second time.
If at first you don't succeed, back up and run him over a second time.


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## pardus (Nov 13, 2022)

Things are going to get interesting in this already interesting area. 

Tapped to head new hard-right government, Netanyahu pledges Israeli unity


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## pardus (Nov 17, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1593242557370114048


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## pardus (Nov 23, 2022)

__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595307973596696578


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