# Top SEAL gives deadline



## coolusername (Aug 3, 2019)

"SEAL commanders have until Aug. 7 to report issues and give recommendations on how to fix them". What do you guys think will happen following this? Is this just saving face or legitimate concern? Will this actually solve the problem that NSW has?
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...FjAJegQIAxAB&usg=AOvVaw1O3HY5z6LMvs3eMc2Nuzo4


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 3, 2019)

The only way they are going to right themselves is a full on smack down. Pull their operational certs, put them back on the boats for a couple of years doing what they are supposed to be doing anyway. Let the deployment junkies get bored and move along, and slowly bring them back into the fold.

They are not going to do that. So my guess is they are going to keep having major problems until JSOC/SOCOM give them the boot.


----------



## Kraut783 (Aug 3, 2019)

Yep, take them out of JSOC, break up the teams, start from scratch, build up your reputation, and try and get back in the game.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 3, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> Yep, take them out of JSOC, break up the teams, start from scratch, build up your reputation, and try and get back in the game.



Honestly, you know they're not going to do that. Expensive, and impractical. Is it the right thing to do? Yeah, probably. But it ain't going to happen.

I imagine the top boss is having his feet held to the fire by people with a whole bunch more stars than he has. I imagine they're going to see results quickly or there's going to be a lot of vacancies.

I absolutely do think they need to have an operational stand down to get their shit in order.

I also think that as public as this has been, you will see change swiftly, or there will be change swiftly.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 3, 2019)

It's a shame someone leaked the memo. They can't even keep business in house. They need to find that person and either charge them under the UCMJ or fire them.


----------



## DasBoot (Aug 3, 2019)

They need to disband the Teams. Either rebrand them, go back to being UDTs or something  along those lines. Or roll the capability into MARSOC and remove the redundancy of two Maritime SOF components. As it stands these guys will not be getting deployed to any real combat zones, as they already are essentially out of the fight.

When no one, and I mean no one, in SOF wants to work with or for you then you need to go away. Their behavior is affecting the entire Command. They like to parade around like they’ve been winning the GWOT when all along they’ve been hanger-ons. The amount of “trauma” they’ve under gone that “forgives” their behavior is paled in comparison to what SF and Regiment have endured.

 I’m tired of hearing about these guys, I’m tired of them stealing credit (see Rob O’neill Talking about the Red Wings rescue), and I’m tired of them killing fucking Army dudes. Which has gone on for years (that. Delta dude with the fake leg? Yeah he got shot by fucking SEALs).


----------



## AWP (Aug 3, 2019)

"Has anyone seen my horse? Well, better close the barn door anyway."


----------



## DasBoot (Aug 3, 2019)




----------



## GOTWA (Aug 3, 2019)

DasBoot said:


> They need to disband the Teams. Either rebrand them, go back to being UDTs or something  along those lines. Or roll the capability into MARSOC and remove the redundancy of two Maritime SOF components. As it stands these guys will not be getting deployed to any real combat zones, as they already are essentially out of the fight.
> 
> When no one, and I mean no one, in SOF wants to work with or for you then you need to go away. Their behavior is affecting the entire Command. They like to parade around like they’ve been winning the GWOT when all along they’ve been hanger-ons. The amount of “trauma” they’ve under gone that “forgives” their behavior is paled in comparison to what SF and Regiment have endured.
> 
> I’m tired of hearing about these guys, I’m tired of them stealing credit (see Rob O’neill Talking about the Red Wings rescue), and I’m tired of them killing fucking Army dudes. Which has gone on for years (that. Delta dude with the fake leg? Yeah he got shot by fucking SEALs).



Last time I deployed I had the "opportunity" to work with some guys from ST10.  I was just a conventional dude working in a small region where we all managed to get along because we had different priorities/requirements.  I managed to tag along on some bi-lateral meetings with them and a team from 10th SFG.  I was less than impressed from the ASOT guys from ST10 because of their attitudes and _way of doing business_.  10th SFG, now those guys were consummate professionals.  They didn't treat me any different because I was from a conventional element.  I would love to work with 75th as I hear nothing but great things about you guys.  Definitely a group of people I respect, trust, and look up to.


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 4, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> It's a shame someone leaked the memo. They can't even keep business in house. They need to find that person and either charge them under the UCMJ or fire them.


ComNavSpecWarCom Memo was released, no leaking.
The lack of leadership rant (crappy blog FWIW) fails to mention each platoon has an E-8 for a "team daddy", maybe stronger enlisted leadership is needed.
I have to wonder how many trouble makers are coming from that one east coast team?  Maybe that's where the re-engineering should start?
Close friend says he hated working with the SEALs, no planning.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Aug 4, 2019)

DasBoot said:


> boooooom shots fired



something something standards something something upholding something fifth stanza

not like they bugged the fuck out on one of their "boys" to basically be left to be shwacked or nothin, nevermind embarassing the team, organization, and country to boot.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 4, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> ComNavSpecWarCom Memo was released, no leaking.
> The lack of leadership rant (crappy blog FWIW) fails to mention each platoon has an E-8 for a "team daddy", maybe stronger enlisted leadership is needed.
> I have to wonder how many trouble makers are coming from that one east coast team?  Maybe that's where the re-engineering should start?
> Close friend says he hated working with the SEALs, no planning.


Source that it was released?


----------



## Gunz (Aug 4, 2019)

DasBoot said:


> They need to disband the Teams. Either rebrand them, go back to being UDTs or something  along those lines. Or roll the capability into MARSOC and remove the redundancy of two Maritime SOF components. As it stands these guys will not be getting deployed to any real combat zones, as they already are essentially out of the fight.
> 
> When no one, and I mean no one, in SOF wants to work with or for you then you need to go away. Their behavior is affecting the entire Command. They like to parade around like they’ve been winning the GWOT when all along they’ve been hanger-ons. The amount of “trauma” they’ve under gone that “forgives” their behavior is paled in comparison to what SF and Regiment have endured.
> 
> I’m tired of hearing about these guys, I’m tired of them stealing credit (see Rob O’neill Talking about the Red Wings rescue), and I’m tired of them killing fucking Army dudes. Which has gone on for years (that. Delta dude with the fake leg? Yeah he got shot by fucking SEALs).



Yeah. And I've been saying all along tear down the whole shitshow and rebuild because it's infected beyond any of the kind of "adjustments" that are likely to come down the chain.

Thanks to shameless self-promotion, NDA violations and Hollywood, all these gutless empty suits in D.C. are SEAL fanboys...so it's not going to happen.

They kill one little unarmed teenage jihadist and they gotta do an endzone dance like a bunch of showboating rookies.


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 4, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> Source that it was released?


naval Institute, Proceedings, published it.


----------



## AWP (Aug 4, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> Source that it was released?



'We Have a Problem': Letter from Naval Special Warfare Command CO to Force - USNI News


----------



## Brill (Aug 4, 2019)

AWP said:


> 'We Have a Problem': Letter from Naval Special Warfare Command CO to Force - USNI News






> As professional development, I direct reading the first 2 chapters of “*A Tactical Ethic* ” by Dick Couch. *This book* describes how we have had these problems in the past. and thus *provides a case study* that we can use to recalibrate our culture and regain our credibility.



Sorry @Marauder06


----------



## Kraut783 (Aug 4, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> Honestly, you know they're not going to do that. Expensive, and impractical. Is it the right thing to do? Yeah, probably. But it ain't going to happen.
> 
> I imagine the top boss is having his feet held to the fire by people with a whole bunch more stars than he has. I imagine they're going to see results quickly or there's going to be a lot of vacancies.
> 
> ...



Then at least take the two well known teams and disband them making them the example......this a good time to do that, at least.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 4, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> Then at least take the two well known teams and disband them making them the example......this a good time to do that, at least.



Disbanding and rebuilding Six/DevGru is an excellent start.  I think when the other mortals see their heroes being benched, it will have a trickle-down effect.  And it's not like six hasn't had their pee-pee smacked in the past.


----------



## Brill (Aug 4, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> Disbanding and rebuilding Six/DevGru is an excellent start.  I think when the other mortals see their heroes being benched, it will have a trickle-down effect.  And it's not like six hasn't had their pee-pee smacked in the past.



The replacement forces needed to take over their Ops at the current proficiency levels simply do not exist.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 4, 2019)

lindy said:


> The replacement forces needed to take over their Ops at the current proficiency levels simply do not exist.



Understood.  Perhaps it's time to lean on our colleagues in other branches or even other countries (i.e., SBS, GROM, etc.) if we had to do that.

But it seems like many of these problems stem from that particular unit and how they are perceived by the rest of Navy special warfare. Cut off the cancer to heal the body.

But, just my opinion. And academic anyway. It's been a hot minute since the CNO called me for my advice.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 4, 2019)

AWP said:


> 'We Have a Problem': Letter from Naval Special Warfare Command CO to Force - USNI News



I find it indicative of the root problems within the culture that we (the public) even have access to this directive. It's like we've shit all over ourselves in public, so we might as well wash our dirty laundry in public.




lindy said:


> The replacement forces needed to take over their Ops at the current proficiency levels simply do not exist.



What about MARSOC? There must be some redundancy of capabilities between two maritime SOF units...as @DasBoot has touched upon.


----------



## policemedic (Aug 4, 2019)

MARSOC, as good as it is, can’t step into DEVGRU’s mission set and expect to be successful.


----------



## policemedic (Aug 4, 2019)

lindy said:


> The replacement forces needed to take over their Ops at the current proficiency levels simply do not exist.



You may be right. It takes a huge investment in time and national treasure to assess, select, train and equip a Tier One dude and it is unreasonable to assume another SEAL team or MARSOC or Charlie Sheen could just take over for them. 

Can we afford not to disband them at this stage in the game?  That’s the bigger question. Yeah, it’ll take time to rebuild the ranks. It might just be that we should take the hard road instead of the easy one.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 4, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> naval Institute, Proceedings, published it.



Still doesn't mean it wasn't leaked. Naval Institute is a private organization, is it not?


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 4, 2019)

policemedic said:


> Can we afford not to disband them at this stage in the game? That’s the bigger question. Yeah, it’ll take time to rebuild the ranks. It might just be that we should take the hard road instead of the easy one.


The question I ask, is anyone outside is the pretty well thought out confines of our little board here, even considering such a thing?


----------



## DasBoot (Aug 4, 2019)

policemedic said:


> MARSOC, as good as it is, can’t step into DEVGRU’s mission set and expect to be successful.


There are already a handful of Marines working in the Army SMUs. Using those guys to stand up a Marine SMU would be doable, if not likely. Also I would venture to say that the Raiders have as much experience doing ship take downs and maritime interdictions.


----------



## policemedic (Aug 4, 2019)

DasBoot said:


> There are already a handful of Marines working in the Army SMUs. Using those guys to stand up a Marine SMU would be doable, if not likely. Also I would venture to say that the Raiders have as much experience doing ship take downs and maritime interdictions.



No argument about the Marines in SMUs or the capability of Raiders in any way. 

I’m just saying you can’t hand them a new patch and say, “Congrats! Here’s your key to the Tier One latrine.”  They would have to train up for that, which would create some downtime with missions that would have gone to Six going to the other Tier One asset. 

I’d be interested to hear what a current Raider thinks out their unit’s capability relative to a SEAL team.


----------



## Hillclimb (Aug 4, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> What about MARSOC? There must be some redundancy of capabilities between two maritime SOF units...as @DasBoot has touched upon.





policemedic said:


> No argument about the Marines in SMUs or the capability of Raiders in any way.
> 
> I’m just saying you can’t hand them a new patch and say, “Congrats! Here’s your key to the Tier One latrine.”  They would have to train up for that, which would create some downtime with missions that would have gone to Six going to the other Tier One asset.
> 
> I’d be interested to hear what a current Raider thinks out their unit’s capability relative to a SEAL team.



To a SEAL team or DEVGRU? I've seen both names thrown out around here, and they're gonna be two very different answers.


----------



## USNSCC_Guru (Aug 4, 2019)

A Recon Marine I know once said, "The problem with SEALs is BUD/S. Just because they've survived being uselessly beaten for useless shit they have this mentality of 'I'm the best' that is supercharged by the media." He then said something to the effect of going back to a training that refines the skill, physical ability, and professionalism of the trainees, not just beating them. I wonder if he had something there.


----------



## policemedic (Aug 4, 2019)

Hillclimb said:


> To a SEAL team or DEVGRU? I've seen both names thrown out around here, and they're gonna be two very different answers.



SEAL team.  I don’t believe there’s a fair comparison to be made to DEVGRU.


----------



## DasBoot (Aug 4, 2019)

policemedic said:


> SEAL team.  I don’t believe there’s a fair comparison to be made to DEVGRU.


Those guys are so inactive right now and there are so few maritime missions that then being stood down would be fine. Regiment would be able to fill the void in their theater along with group. In the mean time Raider batts could cover the maritime gig before a Tier One unit could replace it


----------



## Hillclimb (Aug 4, 2019)

I don't think it would be wise to make Raiders a dedicated maritime SOF asset. We all know the politics of controlling real estate and influence. I don't think it'd be as simple as being a fill in for the time being: "Wow you guys are killing it. Why don't you stay here for the next 20 years!"

Realistically we don't really have the mobility to just shift missions like that due to our size(3 Battalions/4 companies/4 MSOTs per company/AO). Each Battalion maintains 4 teams forward deployed and they're already tied up between Iraq/Afg, also I think we'd be wasting our enablers capabilities if we shifted them in that direction as well. One of our strengths is that we deploy fully enabled MSOTs, and all of our capabilities are organic to us(12 Raiders + handful of enablers). I imagine the SEALs have a better working relationship with the platforms/support needed to conduct those types of operations anyways(SWCC, and Navy in general). For the most part I'd say the appetite to take on that as a full time mission set is... not very high in the community, since we've been investing and gained most of our experience in the FID/UW world the past x years.

I think putting a fully enabled MSOT in anything other than the realm FID/IW/UW is a waste. But thats just my .02.


----------



## Hacksaw0621 (Aug 4, 2019)

The maritime missions would be a good gig for Recon but that would never happen


----------



## Gunz (Aug 4, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> The question I ask, is anyone outside is the pretty well thought out confines of our little board here, even considering such a thing?




It'll never happen. We are a justifiably critical and highly opinionated military audience. Outside of the "biz" the SEALs sit next to God, Old Glory and mom's apple pie.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 4, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> It'll never happen. We are a justifiably critical and highly opinionated military audience. Outside of the "biz" the SEALs sit next to God, Old Glory and mom's apple pie.



That is historically the case sine the onset of the GWOT--afterall, they walked both ways, up hill, in snow, at night, to give OBL a dirt nap--but I think it's changing.  It's too public now, and it not just one individual fuck up, it's multiple institutional failures.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 4, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> That is historically the case sine the onset of the GWOT--afterall, they walked both ways, up hill, in snow, at night, to give OBL a dirt nap--but I think it's changing.  It's too public now, and it not just one individual fuck up, it's multiple institutional failures.



I think you're giving the general public too much credit. Most have very little interest in or knowledge of military affairs...and I'd extend that level of ignorance to much of the main stream media.

I think it's very unlikely that DEVGRU or the SEAL teams get disbanded.


----------



## Teufel (Aug 4, 2019)

Hacksaw0621 said:


> The maritime missions would be a good gig for Recon but that would never happen


You never know!


----------



## Kraut783 (Aug 4, 2019)

This thread is fantastic....learning a lot from everyone's input.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 4, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> I think you're giving the general public too much credit. Most have very little interest in or knowledge of military affairs...and I'd extend that level of ignorance to much of the main stream media.
> 
> I think it's very unlikely that DEVGRU or the SEAL teams get disbanded.



So, I kinda thought so, too.  I do think the public is removed from the military.  But this mess has been in the national media so much people are talking about it.  A couple folks asked me about it, knowing I was in.  People don't have an informed opinion but some personal are talking.  But you are right in that most people couldn't give two shits.

I don't think the SEAL teams are going anywhere but wouldn't be surprised if six gets changed.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 4, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> But you are right in that most people couldn't give two shits.



Agree 100%.  The folks who are already anti-military will only become more so.  But most of the people who run in my circles?  As far as they are concerned...SEAL's gonna SEAL and it's all good!   Get those terrorists, boys!


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 4, 2019)

Let's be real. NSW isn't going anywhere. Look at what the Army and Marines did in Vietnam. They are still here today.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 5, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> Let's be real. NSW isn't going anywhere. Look at what the Army and _*Marines did in Vietnam*_. They are still here today.



Hello, Mr. Parlatore? How much do you cost?


----------



## x SF med (Aug 5, 2019)

What ever happened to the old edict that SOF guys had to be held to higher standards in everything - training, professionalism, ethics, morals and integrity?  Just my old school thoughts.


----------



## Box (Aug 5, 2019)

I'm still waiting for an invoice - there is no way this shit show can be free of charge !!!


----------



## EqualReaction (Aug 5, 2019)

What would happen to the guys who are solid dudes and have millions of dollars invested in them if they disbanded the Teams?


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 5, 2019)

EqualReaction said:


> What would happen to the guys who are solid dudes and have millions of dollars invested in them if they disbanded the Teams?



They aren't going to disband the teams. They might disband a particular team, or reorganize it. They certainly might reorganize some platoons.  But all of the SEAL teams?  Nah.  But in the "old" days the SEALs could have gone to their previous rates.  Not now since all are SOs.

But I do note with a great deal of sardonic irony their medics couldn't even revert to corpsman since none of them are corpsman anymore.


----------



## Box (Aug 5, 2019)

The "threat" of disbanding makes you wonder how hollow or realistic the "Abrams Charter" would be if applied across the entire Special Operations enterprise....

"_The Ranger Battalion is to be an elite, light and most proficient infantry battalion in the world. A Battalion that can do things with its hands and weapons better than anyone. *The Battalion will contain no "hoodlums or brigands" and if the battalion is formed from such persons, it will be disbanded*. Wherever the Battalion goes, it must be apparent that it is the best._"

NOTHING should ever be treated like it is "too big to fail"


The "SO" rating for SEALs and the 18-Series MOS were two of the biggest mistakes ever made.
It may have gave folks a route to stay in SOF longer, but it also provided an "anchor" for dirt bags that managed to squeeze through the selection process.
Fuck up and you go back to the fleet
Fuck up, and you go back to the "big Army"

To any self respecting SF guy such a fate was the worst form of punishment.
Now guys just get out and go to work contracting for 10,000 a year more than they make in uniform.
Or they write a fucking book.
...some punishment


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 5, 2019)

Box said:


> Now guys just get out and go to work contracting for 10,000 a year more than they make in uniform.
> Or they write a fucking book.
> ...some punishment


It's too bad the government does not have them sign some type of document that all but prevents them from writing an "I was there" book.  At least with any accuracy that is....if only such a document existed....


----------



## Box (Aug 5, 2019)

HAHAHAHAHA

what a silly idea - who ever heard of such a thing?
Besides, why would anyone be so dumb as to sign some arbitrary statement that promises non-disclosure of the operations and training that you conducted while serving the nation.

How does such a statement encourage the entrepreneurial ideals of American capitalism?


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 5, 2019)

A little bit of meaningful enforcement would go s long way towards curbing this type of behavior.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 5, 2019)

Edit: nevermind pointless ramblings of why I don't like SEALs. Carry on all...


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 5, 2019)

@Diamondback 2/2 , I think many of us share similar stories.  I have a few buddies who were SEALs (all of us are out now), and they are as solid as they come.  They are also in a minority, and they are also rightly pissed at what's gone down over the past few years.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 5, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> @Diamondback 2/2 , I think many of us share similar stories.  I have a few buddies who were SEALs (all of us are out now), and they are as solid as they come.  They are also in a minority, and they are also rightly pissed at what's gone down over the past few years.



Yeah I edited it, pretty pointless rant on my part. No need to air any dirt, they do that shit pretty well on their own.


----------



## EqualReaction (Aug 5, 2019)

The scary thing is that this could happen in any high performance community, military or civilian. When you can get away with almost anything then anything becomes possible. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 5, 2019)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Yeah I edited it, pretty pointless rant on my part. No need to air any dirt, they do that shit pretty well on their own.



Don't get me wrong, I had no issue with what you posted. I was just pointing out that your anecdotes were but a small example, to illustrate how big the problem is.


----------



## Teufel (Aug 5, 2019)

EqualReaction said:


> The scary thing is that this could happen in any high performance community, military or civilian. When you can get away with almost anything then anything becomes possible. Absolute power corrupts absolutely.


We should encourage leaders to curb absolute power with rules, regulations, and general discipline. That might work if ‘we’ tried it.


----------



## AWP (Aug 5, 2019)

You could take your most problematic team (which appears to be 7) and break it up. Shotgun members to other teams, especially the west coast. Break up any homesteading that's occurred without punishing the entirety of NSW. Take a hard look at your Senior NCO's in the broken Team and force some retirements. Kill the careers of your worst 2-3 officers in said Team. Take the targeted Team out of any deployments until it can rebuild some cohesion after all of the moves.

Letters, stand downs...bah. Sometimes you have to drop some bodies for the survivors to learn.


----------



## SaintKP (Aug 5, 2019)

AWP said:


> Letters, stand downs...bah. Sometimes you have to drop some bodies for the survivors to learn.




We had to do this when I took over at my current job, place was filled with shitbirds and the culture was a toxic cesspit of abject indifference that was at best complacency to the current environment and at worst actively promoting it. 

You seperate the wheat from the chaff immediately and without hesitation. Either people get the message or they won't, to change an environment and culture that is such an antithesis to your own goals requires zero compromise and being absolute in your plan. 

Its rough, but sometimes the forest needs to burn for it to thrive in the long run.


----------



## DasBoot (Aug 5, 2019)

So to shed light on “Fight club”- the “Charters” are not enforced like you would be led to believe. Since 9/11, most guys stay in Batt. Often in the same Batt, sometimes the same company, and occasionally the same PLT. When “charter time” came back about the time I showed up, it was a burden and a blessing. 

If a guy wants to make E8 in Batt, he has to do something outside of Batt. RASP/RASPII/SURT cadre all count. RI fine counts- though most dudes Regiment wants to keep stay in house as either A)RSTC (prior mentioned courses) or B) gets a Cush job near their old Batt as a BLC instructor. The bad ones who need real time away or are not wanted back go be RI’s at Ranger school or go to the Big Army (not including the E9 level). 

This all goes back to what @Box brought up- guys keep their MOS in Regiment. A tabbed infantryman is still an 11BV4. A commo dude is still a 25 series with the V4 identifier. It makes it easier for Regiment and the Army to keep tactically competent dudes around or send them somewhere else to be a stud, even if they are shitbags. 

SEALs having a rating that essentially keeps them out of Big Navy prevents them from going there and being used as an asset. For instance- a Regiment medic who gets RFS’d can go to the 82nd and know what is up, honestly with SOCM be a better asset than most PAs, and continue serving. Albeit unhappily. But they can go take a job in the Army. SEAL medics can’t say the same.


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 5, 2019)

AWP said:


> You could take your most problematic team (which appears to be 7) and break it up. Shotgun members to other teams, especially the west coast. Break up any homesteading that's occurred without punishing the entirety of NSW. Take a hard look at your Senior NCO's in the broken Team and force some retirements. Kill the careers of your worst 2-3 officers in said Team. Take the targeted Team out of any deployments until it can rebuild some cohesion after all of the moves.
> 
> Letters, stand downs...bah. Sometimes you have to drop some bodies for the survivors to learn.


Disband that team and add a Plt to the other teams.
You's whack a shit ton of Field Grade positions, and a bunch of E8/9 slots.
Leadership notices stuff like that.


----------



## DocCallahan (Aug 6, 2019)

DasBoot said:


> So to shed light on “Fight club”- the “Charters” are not enforced like you would be led to believe. Since 9/11, most guys stay in Batt. Often in the same Batt, sometimes the same company, and occasionally the same PLT. When “charter time” came back about the time I showed up, it was a burden and a blessing.
> 
> If a guy wants to make E8 in Batt, he has to do something outside of Batt. RASP/RASPII/SURT cadre all count. RI fine counts- though most dudes Regiment wants to keep stay in house as either A)RSTC (prior mentioned courses) or B) gets a Cush job near their old Batt as a BLC instructor. The bad ones who need real time away or are not wanted back go be RI’s at Ranger school or go to the Big Army (not including the E9 level).
> 
> ...



I will say it’s not hard to get re-rated in the Navy or lose your rating. It’s just not common practice anymore. Though I’ve seen a Corpsman become undesignated Seamen, which I promise you. Is not a job anybody would want. 
It’s just quite uncommon.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 6, 2019)

DocCallahan said:


> I will say it’s not hard to get re-rated in the Navy or lose your rating. It’s just not common practice anymore. Though I’ve seen a Corpsman become undesignated Seamen, which I promise you. Is not a job anybody would want.
> It’s just quite uncommon.



Cross rating definitely happens, but could you imagine a SEAL "medic" being forced to cross rate as a HM, and the assignment he would get if he was a shit-head with a bad rep?  Sure, a solid warrior with good skills who happened to be collateral damage would end up probably in a pretty good billet, but the others?  Not so much.

The other SOs would be SOL and be turned over to the needs of the navy, truly be victim of (paraphrasing) "get your rate, get your fate".


----------



## Box (Aug 6, 2019)

The downfall of special Operations is eventually going to be the phrase, "_but he's a helluva good guy_"
...the next worst line is, "_He's the kind of guy you want in a gunfight_"

I know he is facing charges for choking someone to death as part of a sexual assault "prank",  "_but he's a helluva good guy_"
I know that guy helped embezzle 90,000 dollars in operational funds,  "_but he's a helluva good guy_"
I know that guy got busted smuggling cocaine into the US by trying to hide it in a punching bag,  "_but he's a helluva good guy_"
I know he got caught in a quarter of a million dollar fuel scandal,  "_but he's a helluva good guy_"

"_He's the kind of guy you want in a gunfight_" - but getting him to stop stabbing prisoners in the neck is a little tricky
"_He's the kind of guy you want in a gunfight_" just stay clear when he starts burning and burying the dead bodies or you'll go down with him
_"He's the kind of guy you want in a gunfight"_ you just need to keep a short leash on him so he doesn't start shooting unarmed civilians


It isn't just the SEALs - its EVERYONE that thinks SOF is some sort of passport to no holds barred fun and excitement.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 6, 2019)

@Box, those are opposite, inextricably so: one cannot be a shit-head, and be a good guy, and that is the very perception we (royal we) need to combat.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 6, 2019)

Here's the thing with SEALS, if you get rid of the SO rating, they are now competing with very dissimilar people. You can't compare a SEAL to a Ranger because Rangers do Infantry shit. A SEAL does not do pipefitting or damage control. So do you expert them to maintain proficiency in both fields? If people steering ships suck at that, how do you expect them to be able to do that plus maintain all their other equals? I'd rather see them maintain SO skills over all that other crap.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 6, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> Here's the thing with SEALS, if you get rid of the SO rating, they are now competing with very dissimilar people. You can't compare a SEAL to a Ranger because Rangers do Infantry shit. A SEAL does not do pipefitting or damage control. So do you expert them to maintain proficiency in both fields? If people steering ships suck at that, how do you expect them to be able to do that plus maintain all their other equals? I'd rather see them maintain SO skills over all that other crap.


 
Well, UDT and SEALs only did it that way for 50 years, so it can be done.  But, it's certainly not optimal, which is why they created the SO rating.  The main issue was at promotion time since they were testing on source rating material (i.e., damage control, etc.) and competing against peers in original source rating.


----------



## EqualReaction (Aug 6, 2019)

A lot of SEAL candidates are drawn to the outlaw cowboy culture. 19 year old me thought becoming that “Rogue Warrior” was the ultimate achievement.  A lot of guys advertise the Teams as if you aren’t even in the military, but you get to do the cool stuff  that the military gets to do. So we all kinda went in thinking we were special from the get go.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 6, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> Well, UDT and SEALs only did it that way for 50 years, so it can be done.  But, it's certainly not optimal, which is why they created the SO rating.  The main issue was at promotion time since they were testing on source rating material (i.e., damage control, etc.) and competing against peers in original source rating.



Exactly. Why test them on something for proficiency they don't use? We dump millions on training them to do other jobs. I get why it would be easier to have another rate, but it just isn't practical.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 6, 2019)

It's too easy to make them revert back to a previous rate and or assign them a new rate.

18X have to be 11B before SOPC. Prior service hold a different MOS prior to SFAS. Why not with other branches such as Navy SEALs?

But whatever, silly argument as it doesn't in anyway address the problems in NSW. Personally I think the boot from JSOC/SOCOM for a few years with basic boat deployment as a maritime SOF capable unit would probably do them some good at righting their people and rep at this point. Anything else is pretty much a bandaid to very problematic culture in NSW.

Put them on anti-piracy for awhile, let the shitheads move along, let them learn to be quite and humble, then reintroduce them.

As it sounds they ain't getting much play right now anyway...


----------



## EqualReaction (Aug 7, 2019)

Eric Deming - Retired Navy SEAL "It used to be just a few bad apples, but they've been able to rot a lot of the apple cart."  Later on saying "I got two boys that are old enough, and I wouldn't even let them be apart of it."


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 23, 2019)

For SEALs, it’s back to regulation haircuts and uniform inspections

Released to senior leaders and then obtained by Navy Times, Green’s guidance returns the SEAL and boat teams to standards expected of service members across the fleet, with a mandate for leaders to conduct “routine inspections of your units and strictly enforce all Navy grooming and uniform standards, including adherence to all Navy traditions, customs and ceremonies.”

Commanders will inspect their officers and sailors during uniform shifts, establish “weekly battle rhythm events” to include quarters, unit physical training and zone inspections, with Green personally holding leaders “accountable for all substandard issues related to your personnel on and off duty.”

“We are U.S. Naval Officers and Sailors first and foremost and we will realign ourselves to these standards immediately,” the WARCOM boss wrote.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 23, 2019)

Bwahahaha!  You mean they have to be held to a standard like a real unit and real sailors??  No more SEAL team 6 combat beards?  No more woodland cammies on bottom, desert on top strolling around the base?


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 23, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> Bwahahaha!  You mean they have to be held to a standard like a real unit and real sailors??  No more SEAL team 6 combat beards?  No more woodland cammies on bottom, desert on top strolling around the base?


Big boy rules, act stupid and you get garrison life.  The SEALs aren't the only ones who need a taste of garrison life; they are just the worst kid in the house for now.

Going 100% BDU's after 9/11 was a stupid move by management.


----------



## EqualReaction (Aug 23, 2019)

I am not eloquent or handy enough to put a trident on this picture.


----------



## benroliver (Sep 5, 2019)

Another thing that bothers me about all of this has been the public's reaction to it. Just read social media comments about the Gallagher case. People are defending his behavior shouting down anyone who criticize it as "snowflakes" or anti- American. The infatuation with SOF has just gone too far. They are no longer quiet professionals. What happened to holding these men to a higher standard? I believe this whole mindset is a cancer that the Navy needs to radiate quickly.


----------



## Box (Sep 6, 2019)

EqualReaction said:


> I am not eloquent or handy enough to put a trident on this picture. View attachment 29111



Interesting that you use this as an example of military behavior gone bad since the real guy is in prison.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 6, 2019)

Box said:


> Interesting that you use this as an example of military behavior gone bad since the real guy is in prison.


And for some not very nice things either.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 6, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> View attachment 29107
> 
> For SEALs, it’s back to regulation haircuts and uniform inspections
> 
> ...


Admiral Green is not fucking around....

First on CNN: Navy SEAL leaders fired after allegations of sexual assault and drinking among team

"Commander, Navy Special Warfare Command Read Adm. Collin Green relieved the three senior leaders of SEAL Team Seven from their positions Sept. 6.," US Navy Capt. Tamara Lawrence, a spokesperson for Naval Special Warfare Command, told CNN in a statement explaining the rare move. 

Green relieved the unit's commanding officer, Cdr. Edward Mason; executive officer, Lt. Cdr. Luke Im; and the team's top enlisted leader, Command Master Chief Hugh Spangler due to a loss of confidence that resulted from leadership failures that caused a breakdown of good order and discipline within two subordinate units while deployed to combat zones," Lawrence added.


----------



## policemedic (Sep 6, 2019)

I’m not sure Navy personnel decisions that are the result of discipline or perceived poor performance need to the subject of public press releases.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 6, 2019)

policemedic said:


> I’m not sure Navy personnel decisions that are the result of discipline or perceived poor performance need to the subject of public press releases.


I would usually agree, but in this case I believe that the Navy is doing a very public retooling of the SEAL’s.

My guess is that these announcements are also being made to show not just the other services, but possibly other nations, that something more than just lip service is actually being done about the SEAL’s and their ass-hattery.


----------



## Teufel (Sep 6, 2019)

Navy Relocates BUD/S To Fort Leavenworth


----------



## AWP (Sep 7, 2019)

policemedic said:


> I’m not sure Navy personnel decisions that are the result of discipline or perceived poor performance need to the subject of public press releases.





Ooh-Rah said:


> I would usually agree, but in this case I believe that the Navy is doing a very public retooling of the SEAL’s.
> 
> My guess is that these announcements are also being made to show not just the other services, but possibly other nations, that something more than just lip service is actually being done about the SEAL’s and their ass-hattery.



Services do it all of the time with other units and I've seen previous instances where a relieved ST commander had an article written about him. There's nothing unusual about this case.


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 7, 2019)

AWP said:


> Services do it all of the time with other units and *I've seen previous instances where a relieved ST commander had an article written about him*. There's nothing unusual about this case.


*Lackland AFB? *


----------



## policemedic (Sep 7, 2019)

AWP said:


> Services do it all of the time with other units and I've seen previous instances where a relieved ST commander had an article written about him. There's nothing unusual about this case.



I know it's kind of a standard practice; I just disagree with it.  But that's me.


----------



## Box (Sep 7, 2019)

A wise old guy once said that sunlight was the best disinfectant - publishing relief-for-cause is chicken soup for the soul - not much different than putting an Article-15 on the company bulletin board.

If folks don't want to be humiliated in the public square - they shouldn't betray the public trust behind closed doors.


Just my two cents - I could be wrong.


----------



## policemedic (Sep 7, 2019)

I can appreciate the logic.  

I suppose I'm of two minds on the subject.  There's a significant public interest when we're talking about the commander of a major military unit.  It's different than the guy managing the local Burger Thing.  That said, absent criminal or near-criminal conduct (NJP), I don't know that a change of leadership requires the notification of literally everyone with internet access.  I think there's a degree of personal privacy that should be considered, regardless of public employment.

I also think it's a matter of scale.  I get that the Admiral wants to send a rocket into the NSW community (it's certainly warranted).  However, might he achieve the same result within NSW by moving these dudes to a non-SOF assignment and distributing a memo internally that explains why the move was made?

I do agree with the idea of sunlight as a disinfectant.  Who knows, maybe I'm just overthinking this because I'm used to working in organizations that don't publicly discuss disciplinary actions.


----------



## AWP (Sep 8, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> *Lackland AFB? *



No. SEAL Team, not Special Tactics.


----------



## Gunz (Sep 8, 2019)

policemedic said:


> I can appreciate the logic.
> 
> I suppose I'm of two minds on the subject.  There's a significant public interest when we're talking about the commander of a major military unit.  It's different than the guy managing the local Burger Thing.  That said, absent criminal or near-criminal conduct (NJP), I don't know that a change of leadership requires the notification of literally everyone with internet access.  I think there's a degree of personal privacy that should be considered, regardless of public employment.
> 
> ...



All this asshattery has been widely publicized consequently resulting in very public (social media etc) demands for corrective action. The cat's already out of the bag. I think the Navy was obligated, for the sake of NSW's reputation (not to mention congressional purse strings) to issue a very public pronouncement of intent.

Now they just need to follow through, kick some ass, and get back into the shadows where they belong.


----------



## MikeDelta (Sep 8, 2019)

It has become a cultural problem, full on cancer in the system

It’s a damn shame, but they’re going to have to clean house and quickly, one way or another; just as if this was any other type of business.

My guess is that they will be substantially downsized, quietly, while trying to avoid any further public humiliation. 

Others mentioned a focus on UDT, or eliminating redundancy by merging with MARSOC; I agree that this could be a practical, realistic solution.


----------



## Devildoc (Sep 8, 2019)

Public flogging (I use that word intentionally because it is the Navy) is not new in the Navy. Everytime they sack a ship's captain, XO, or CMC, it is very public. I would agree that with regard to special warfare it is that much more so given all the weirdness of the past couple years and how much it has been thrust into the public and political landscape.


----------



## AWP (Sep 8, 2019)

You want the book and movie deals, your leadership gets the same visibility when they suck. Live by the word processor, die by the word processor.


----------



## NikNifSik (Sep 13, 2019)

DasBoot said:


> I’m tired of hearing about these guys, I’m tired of them stealing credit (see Rob O’neill Talking about the Red Wings rescue), and I’m tired of them killing fucking Army dudes. Which has gone on for years (that. Delta dude with the fake leg? Yeah he got shot by fucking SEALs).



Das,
I'd like to hear more about the fake leg operator story. I seem to hear ALL the dirt on SEALs but that's a new one for me.


----------



## DasBoot (Sep 13, 2019)

NikNifSik said:


> Das,
> I'd like to hear more about the fake leg operator story. I seem to hear ALL the dirt on SEALs but that's a new one for me.


SGM Yerry was shot by 6 when they came as QRF to a building Green had locked down and needed helping SSEing. They never deconflicted and entered the back and started clearing. They shot him in the leg.


----------



## lr1400 (Sep 16, 2019)

I heard this from someone in the same unit as Yerry.


----------



## AWP (Sep 17, 2019)

DasBoot said:


> SGM Yerry was shot by 6 when they came as QRF to a building Green had locked down and needed helping SSEing. They never deconflicted and entered the back and started clearing. They shot him in the leg.



They cleared a house but shot a guy in the leg, not center mass? Were they filming an episode of Person of Interest?


----------



## NikNifSik (Sep 17, 2019)

DasBoot said:


> SGM Yerry was shot by 6 when they came as QRF to a building Green had locked down and needed helping SSEing. They never deconflicted and entered the back and started clearing. They shot him in the leg.



Appreciate the info. That's definitely a bummer and sounds like it could have been even worse. Luckily they didn't use their "frag the hostage" technique on this one.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 17, 2019)

What is their frag the hostage technique? Have a specific example?


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 17, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> What is their frag the hostage technique? Have a specific example?


British hostage was killed during a rescue attempt( IIRC) by a SEAL delivered fragmentation grenade.


----------



## DasBoot (Sep 17, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> What is their frag the hostage technique? Have a specific example?


Linda Norgrove In ‘09. Silver Squadron dude thought she was a terrorist. Threw a frag at her. Killed her. Initial word passed to the JOC was a dude clacked himself off with an S vest and killed her. Guy tells his TL, TL sits on it for a day or two and finally reports it up that “hey, my dude threw the frag...”

End result- they are no longer issued frags when deployed for hostage rescues...


----------



## Gunz (Sep 18, 2019)

Just so happens the guy that kidnapped Norgrove got a pardon two days ago in an Afghan gov amnesty deal.

I remember the story. In light of some things that transpired since Anaconda, it wasn't all that surprising that a SEAL might've chucked a frag in a buck-fever moment during a hostage rescue; and, sad to say, even less surprising that they tied to cover it up.


----------



## NikNifSik (Sep 18, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> What is their frag the hostage technique? Have a specific example?


Linda Norgrove: US navy Seal faces disciplinary action over grenade death

Here is an article detailing the grenade incident. Not their finest moment.


----------

