# US to sell arms to Vietnam??



## Devildoc (Feb 25, 2016)

I didn't know if I should put this in military history or here.  Let's see: we train Ho Chi Minh and Vo Nguyen Giap to fight a guerrilla war and insurgency, then they use those skills against the French and the US....and now we want to sell them arms??  What a crazy, fucked up world.....

U.S. mulls selling weapons to Vietnam to stave off China military buildup in region


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## AWP (Feb 25, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> I didn't know if I should put this in military history or here.  Let's see: we train Ho Chi Minh and Vo Nguyen Giap to fight a guerrilla war and insurgency, then they use those skills against the French and the US....and now we want to sell them arms??  What a crazy, fucked up world.....
> 
> U.S. mulls selling weapons to Vietnam to stave off China military buildup in region



The Chinese and Vietnamese do not like each other, I think they even fought a war in 79 or 80. The Russians used Cam Rahn Bay as a port afterwards. I know this must gall some Vietnam Vets, perhaps some on this board, but we need help in checking China's growth. Like it or not, the world has changed immeasurably in the last 40 years.


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## TLDR20 (Feb 25, 2016)

We also fought the Germans(Twice, in 40 years), Japanese, and Italians,we are allied with all of them and provide either weapons or military aid to them.... Just saying.


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## Grunt (Feb 25, 2016)

We have been providing/trading weapons and training with our friends who later became enemies or vice versa since time began. I suspect it will always be that way. That's how we roll!


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## Devildoc (Feb 25, 2016)

I know, I know....

The Chinese 'owned' Vietnam at one time (better put, Vietnam was a part of China), and China and Vietnam scrapped a bit in 1979 when China invade due to Vietnam invading Cambodia and installing a government.  I do get the whole Chinese-hegemony-in-Asia threat, I really do.

I would argue the differences between VN and the countries in WWII are a) those countries lost, b) the US was instrumental in rebuilding those countries and all of them have a pro-democracy form of government, and c) much of the acrimony has subsided because of the 70+ years since the war ended.  I think that there is more contention with having relations with Vietnam than with the other countries.

I think part of my original point, about how fucked up this world is, is the ongoing notion of "what have you done for me lately?" foreign policy, and the enemy of my enemy is my friend, a la Vietnam (1945), Iraq, Iran, and a whole host of others.....

I _know _how the world works.  Just doesn't always makes sense is all....


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## Grunt (Feb 25, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> I know, I know....
> 
> The Chinese 'owned' Vietnam at one time (better put, Vietnam was a part of China), and China and Vietnam scrapped a bit in 1979 when China invade due to Vietnam invading Cambodia and installing a government.  I do get the whole Chinese-hegemony-in-Asia threat, I really do.
> 
> ...




Brother, I agree with you that the situation is jacked up. It just doesn't surprise me since our history shows that we do it all the time -- messed up or not.


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## Devildoc (Feb 25, 2016)

Agoge said:


> Brother, I agree with you that the situation is jacked up. It just doesn't surprise me since our history shows that we do it all the time -- messed up or not.



I guess what bothers me is so many people just shrug and say "eh," ignoring lessons of what happens to us when we do stuff like this.


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## AWP (Feb 25, 2016)

Helping out a nation isn't unusual because nations have done that since the dawn of time.  They have something you want? Of course you'll invest in their country. As for arming future enemies, it happens and I don't know why it is brought forward except in some circumstances. Case in point: "We armed the Taliban." We didn't, but that story persists. Where we failed was allowing my boys in Pakistan almost unlimited access to the weapons and their disposition. The Muj beat the Soviets, a civil war broke out, and the Taliban came to power. Moreover, we couldn't predict the Taliban anymore than we could predict Iran in the 70's. Libya, Pakistan, Iraq, and Venezuela also come to mind as nations which became enemies or "frenemies" in the case of Pakistan (to whom we still sell arms) after we sold arms to them. This isn't to say some recent developments aren't "duh" moments, but if we look at the whole picture across history's spectrum we'll find only one real difference between Vietnam and other nations.

They beat us, but at some point we have to move on and China's providing that impetus.


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## Red Flag 1 (Feb 25, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> I didn't know if I should put this in military history or here.  Let's see: we train Ho Chi Minh and Vo Nguyen Giap to fight a guerrilla war and insurgency, then they use those skills against the French and the US....and now we want to sell them arms??  What a crazy, fucked up world.....
> 
> U.S. mulls selling weapons to Vietnam to stave off China military buildup in region



In the book, "OSS to Green Beret", there is more than one mention of Col Aaron Bank spending time with our then ally Ho Chi Minh, in planning operations against the Japanese in WW II. To find ourselves again allied with a united Viet Nam, speaks to,"The enemy of my enemy, is my friend". It's not a crazy fucked up world, so much as it is a reflection of what the world is like today-v-what the world was like in 1965. With all that is lighting up in SEA today, to ally with Viet Nam makes perfect sense.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 25, 2016)

I think the important thing to note is that the Vietnamese people have always protected their borders and sovereignty. Japanese, French, US, China. I think they will continue to do so as ferociously as they can, regardless if we supply the weapons to do so. 

In efforts to maintain modes of maritime shipping and free trade, I support the idea of our nation getting involved. However, and they are somewhat linked, I don't support us getting involved in territorial disputes and or attempting to have proxy wars with China as they try to expand. 

I'd much rather see the Philippines, Japanese, Vietnamese, etc, defend their own territory and trade routes, and if we must get involved in some manner, let sell weapon's. We as a nation need to be real careful forseeing the shit and being aware of how deep we want to step in the shit over there.

$.02


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## SpitfireV (Feb 25, 2016)

At the end of the day you guys just love selling guns to anyone on the slightest pretense ;) (tongue in cheek before anyone starts waving a flag and getting their blood up). 

China needs a bit of a counter in the region. They're not a threat at the moment but they are a risk and they need second thoughts (not that they will do anything unless it's absolutely pragmatic and in their best interests).


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## Devildoc (Feb 25, 2016)

I didn't post it to be so much a "Oh my God, how horrible and what hypocrites we are" as much as "I'm shaking my head because whoulda thunk it?"

I echo the idea that the SEA nations should police their own sea lanes and perhaps form an alliance, I also am aware of the hegemony China is bullying about.  

I guess if this comes back to bite us as these things often do we shouldn't be surprised.


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## Red Flag 1 (Feb 25, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> I didn't post it to be so much a "Oh my God, how horrible and what hypocrites we are" as much as "I'm shaking my head because whoulda thunk it?"
> 
> I echo the idea that the SEA nations should police their own sea lanes and perhaps form an alliance, I also am aware of the hegemony China is bullying about.
> 
> I guess if this comes back to bite us as these things often do we shouldn't be surprised.



I knew where you were coming from, and added my $.02.


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## Gunz (Feb 25, 2016)

In the past years since OIF U.S. strategy in the Pacific Rim has focused on containment of the PRC by building alliances with surrounding and neighboring countries, including Vietnam. The idea being in event of an actual hot war with China, we and our allies could conduct swarm attacks from these surrounding locations as opposed to an invasion of the Chinese mainland, which would arguably be a hopeless task.

Any bitterness I may have over the Vietnam War stems from the circumstances from that particular point in history and has nothing to do with current events or even with the Vietnamese people. Jane Fonda can suck my dick but I'd fight any day alongside Vietnamese. Better to have them as friends than as enemies...man for man I think they're better soldiers than your average PLA trooper.

I disagree with many of my fellow Vietnam vets who developed a chauvinistic contempt for the Vietnamese, partly because of brief encounters with undertrained ARVN units and partly because young Americans didn't have the patience or desire to understand the country they were fighting in.

China needs watching. I've made it a point over the past decade to study any and all open source intel regarding Chinese activities in the Americas. PLA intelligence teams have been active in Africa, Central and South America, even in Mexico, and always accompany PRC business delegations around the world. The Chinese Triads are active in Mexico and Panama, in human and arms trafficking. Whether they are legal, illegal, overt or covert, the PRC is exerting economic, political and military influence around the globe and in our hemisphere...even, apparently, conducting FID with various Central and South American rebel factions. IMV now is not the time to get ourselves in a huff over shit that happened 40 years ago.

But Hanoi Jane is still a traitorous cunt bitch and always will be.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 25, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> But Hanoi Jane is still a traitorous cunt bitch and always will be.



And a favorable urinal target in most VFW posts.


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## Gunz (Feb 26, 2016)

SpitfireV said:


> At the end of the day you guys just love selling guns to anyone on the slightest pretense ;) (tongue in cheek before anyone starts waving a flag and getting their blood up



We're gonna invade you and smash all your crumpets.


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## Totentanz (Feb 26, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> We're gonna invade you and smash all your crumpets.



And then set up shop in Middle Earth.

The asshole side of me has absolutely no problem with enabling our enemies' desire to slaughter each other en masse when the opportunity arises.  Might not be the right solution morally, but if the Vietnamese are willing to reduce the population of China then have at it.


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## AWP (Feb 26, 2016)

Totentanz said:


> The asshole side of me has absolutely no problem with enabling our enemies' desire to slaughter each other en masse when the opportunity arises.  Might not be the right solution morally, but if the Vietnamese are willing to reduce the population of China then have at it.



Governments should act in the best interests of their citizens and if that means some morally ambiguous or outright "morally-free" choices, so be it. People can't eat virtue nor does it shoot down aircraft.


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## Devildoc (Feb 26, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Any bitterness I may have over the Vietnam War stems from the circumstances from that particular point in history and has nothing to do with current events or even with the Vietnamese people. Jane Fonda can suck my dick but I'd fight any day alongside Vietnamese. Better to have them as friends than as enemies...man for man I think they're better soldiers than your average PLA trooper.
> 
> I disagree with many of my fellow Vietnam vets who developed a chauvinistic contempt for the Vietnamese, partly because of brief encounters with undertrained ARVN units and partly because young Americans didn't have the patience or desire to understand the country they were fighting in.



In full disclosure and due fairness, VN has made some enormous gains.  It has a top-10 economy in growth, the poverty level has dropped like a rock, tourism has exploded, and they are really trying hard to be a more upstanding nation in the world.

My exposure to Vietnamese people and Montagnards has been limited (the largest concentration of Montagnards in the US is fairly close by), but extraordinarily positive.


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## Devildoc (Feb 26, 2016)

Totentanz said:


> Might not be the right solution morally, but if the Vietnamese are willing to reduce the population of China then have at it.



Not disagreeing but nothing short of an all-out war will create any dent in the population of China......


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## Totentanz (Feb 26, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> Not disagreeing but nothing short of an all-out war will create any dent in the population of China......



A euphemism, not meant to be taken literally...


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## Devildoc (Feb 26, 2016)

Totentanz said:


> A euphemism, not meant to be taken literally...



Oh, I know.  It's the same thought a handful of countries have had over a couple thousand years and didn't realize the enormity of the task until too late.


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## AWP (Feb 26, 2016)

President Trump will fix China.


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## Frank S. (Feb 26, 2016)

"I bought my kidney in Tel-Aviv"

The country album spans the world and has been out since 1999.


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## Gunz (Feb 26, 2016)

Frank S. said:


> "I bought my kidney in Tel-Aviv"
> 
> The country album spans the world and has been out since 1999.



The guy who played the organ on that album was fantastic.


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