# Argentine navy loses contact with submarine



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 17, 2017)

No bueno.

Argentine navy loses contact with sub

The Argentine navy is searching the South Atlantic for a submarine that has not made contact for 48 hours.
The vessel with its 44 crew was last located more than 400km (250 miles) off the coast of Patagonia, the navy said.
There is no sign yet that the problem is anything worse than a communications failure, a spokesman said.

It is believed that the ARA San Juan, a German-built TR-1700 type submarine, suffered an electric malfunction, Argentina's La Nacion reports.
Navy spokesman Enrique Balbi told the newspaper the submarine had been on its way from the Ushuaia naval base to the Mar del Plata base, its usual station, when "at some moment communication stopped".


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## Devildoc (Nov 17, 2017)

Man, that stinks.


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## Gunz (Nov 17, 2017)

48 hours is not a good sign.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 17, 2017)

[QUO


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## DA SWO (Nov 17, 2017)

Electrical failure on a Diesel-Electric sub is bad, worse when you are under water.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 18, 2017)

Search has been stepped up. 

Search stepped up for missing submarine

The Argentine navy is stepping up its search in the South Atlantic for a 44-crew submarine that has been out of radio contact for three days.
President Mauricio Macri said all national and international resources were being deployed to help find the San Juan as quickly as possible.

A NASA research plane has joined the search for the vessel.
Britain and countries in the region have offered help after it disappeared 430km (267 miles) off the coast.
"We have not been able to find, or have visual or radar communication with the submarine," navy spokesman Enrique Balbi told a news conference.


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## Kraut783 (Nov 18, 2017)

Hoping for the best, but....right now I hope they just locate it.


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## AWP (Nov 18, 2017)

SOSUS would pick it up if it imploded. Wherever it is, the hull must be intact.


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## AWP (Nov 19, 2017)

If they were still around on Sat. morning then there's a chance at least.

_(CNN)_The crew of a missing Argentine military submarine tried contacting naval bases seven times, Argentina's Defense Ministry said. 
The calls were made on Saturday to different bases between 10:52 a.m. and 3:42 p.m. and ranged from four to 36 seconds long, the ministry said in a statement to CNN en Español. No communication connection was made.

Argentina missing navy sub tried contacting base - CNN


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 19, 2017)

I


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## RackMaster (Nov 19, 2017)

Read earlier that the underwater rescue ROV's are on the way.


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## CQB (Nov 20, 2017)

Seven days of emergency oxygen, now at day five. The Collins Class sub has emergency compartments so there’s a chance. The six metre swell will prove challenging to say the least.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 20, 2017)

[QU


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## AWP (Nov 22, 2017)

I saw an article where the SPAG was called in. What's a SPAG? Exactly, never heard of the guys. It sounds like a great capability though.

Elite Navy rescue team always on call to help submariners



> The Royal Navy’s Submarine Parachute Assistance Group (SPAG) is a specialist emergency rescue team on constant standby to travel to stricken submarines.
> The highly-trained group was formed in the 1960s when Naval commanders decided they needed to be able to get experts to the site of a submarine emergency as quickly as possible.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 23, 2017)

Still searching....

I've seen a few of the tabloid sites claim they found 'something', but none of the more legit sites that I follow have gone that far.

New clue found in the hunt for Argentine submarine running out of oxygen

Search and rescue teams hunting for a missing Argentinian submarine will return to a previously searched area after officials said a noise made in the South Atlantic a week ago could offer a clue to the vessel's location.

Dozens of planes and ships were searching for the ARA San Juan, with the search entering a "critical phase" as the 44 crew on board could be running low on oxygen, an Argentine navy spokesman said.

Captain Enrique Balbi later said an unusual noise was detected near where the submarine reported its last position, but he declined to say if the sound indicated an explosion or emergency on the vessel.

The "hydro-acoustic anomaly" originated around 30 miles north of the submarine's last registered position, he said, adding: "It's a noise. We don't want to speculate" what caused it.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 23, 2017)

Roh roh.

US Navy plane 'spots object' where submarine went missing | Daily Mail Online

Desperate family members of sailors aboard a missing Argentine submarine have attacked the navy after it confirmed today there was an explosion near the vessel hours after it vanished a week ago.

One relative is reported to have left a navy news conference after screaming: 'They killed my brother, you sons of b*****s'. 

Argentina's navy announced at the conference that a sound detected during the search for the ARA San Juan apparently came from an explosion - an ominous development that prompted family of the 44 crew members to burst into tears.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 23, 2017)

Rest In God's Own Peace, Submariners. Prayers out.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 24, 2017)

What a tragedy.  On so many fronts. 

Lost souls of the San Juan: Pictures emerge of sub crew | Daily Mail Online


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## AWP (Nov 24, 2017)

Knowing that WWII subs could be lost via saltwater flooding the battery compartment, I decided to do some digging:

Possible Argentina submarine explosion: 7 questions about the ARA San Juan tragedy



> A former submarine commander told AFP a problem with batteries could cause an explosion.
> 
> "A severe problem with batteries might generate hydrogen. Hydrogen above a certain percentage is explosive," said the commander, who requested anonymity.
> 
> "It explodes by itself. Should they have had an explosion, then what? Everything was lost."



An electrical issue could lead to anything, but batteries have always stood out to me...right or wrong.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 28, 2017)

Navy releases new timeline of hours before Argentine sub went missing

The Argentine military Tuesday released its most detailed timeline yet in this month's disappearance of a naval submarine, saying that the vessel first reported a battery short-circuit roughly 10 hours before an explosion-like sound was detected near the sub's last known location.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 28, 2017)

They


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## Marauder06 (Nov 28, 2017)

That's very unfortunate.  I'll confess to not knowing the Argentinians had a submarine force prior to this incident.  I guess it makes sense given the "got to fight the British" thing.


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## DA SWO (Nov 28, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> The take water in via the snorkel. The battery shorts. The travel home submerged. Then Boom.
> 
> Why did they not surface and run on diesel power back to base? It just seems screwy to me to stay submerged and still run on the batteries. Seems smarter to surface, ventilate the boat and motor to shore without relying on the compromised electrical propulsion system.


What was the sea state?
Modern subs do not handle well on the surface.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 29, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> What was the sea state?


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 4, 2017)

Article from WSJ:
The San Juan’s Final Hours: The Loss of an Argentine Submarine

Oof.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 4, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Article from WSJ:
> The San Juan’s Final Hours: The Loss of an Argentine Submarine
> 
> Oof.



Not everyone has a subscription to WSJ.  Always nice to share a paragraph or two:



MAR DEL PLATA, Argentina— Susana Miguens last spoke with her son in early November, when he called from the world’s southernmost city, Ushuaia, to say the submarine he served on would soon set out to chase down illegal fishing vessels in the frigid waters off southern Argentina.

Argentine Navy Seaman Leandro Cisneros told her the vessel was in good shape, its 44-member crew well trained and prepared for any surprises. “We have everything we need to live underwater,” he reassured her.

But just over a week later, the ARA San Juan dropped off the map, stunning Argentina’s navy and prompting the U.S. and 16 other nations to join it in what Argentine officials describe as an unprecedented international effort to find the sub and figure out what went so drastically wrong.

*Calamity on the San Juan*

216 FEET

1 Water enters the snorkel while sub is running its diesel engine on surface.

2 The water causes a short circuit and fire in batteries, which the crew manages to isolate.

3 Backup batteries kick in, but three hours after fire was out, vessel experiences what officials believe was a major explosion.

On Thursday, Argentina’s Navy said it was officially giving up hope of finding the sailors alive and was looking only for wreckage.

In recent days, Argentine authorities have gathered crucial evidence to piece together a theory of what happened after the San Juan left Ushuaia on Nov. 8, bound for its home base of Mar del Plata about 260 miles south of Buenos Aires. They believe the sub took on water that caused a short circuit and a subsequent fire in a key battery compartment. The crew got the fire under control, but hours later there was a loud noise consistent with an explosion near the sub’s last reported location.

Top Argentine officials now believe a blast instantly killed the sailors and sent the vessel to the seafloor. While no one knows for sure what caused the explosion, the batteries are the likeliest culprit, Argentine naval officials and outside experts say.

“It looks like a very possible cause,” said Mike Fabey, a naval expert at Jane’s by IHS Markit, a defense consulting firm. “Battery issues of all types with submersibles are something people have been trying to deal with since submarines first went into the water. Water plus electricity equals fire.”

A federal judge in Argentina has opened an investigation into the submarine’s disappearance. Maintenance is one area likely to come under scrutiny. La Nación newspaper reported that an internal Defense Ministry review in 2015 and 2016 determined that Navy personnel servicing the submarine’s batteries “tried to direct the purchase to benefit certain providers and, in the process, they likely acquired materials with expired warranties and committed crimes,” the newspaper reported.

A Defense Ministry official declined to comment on internal investigations.

The battery-and-diesel-powered submarine, delivered by its German manufacturer, Thyssenkrupp, in 1985, was being used by the Argentine Navy to track illegal fishing in the South Atlantic Ocean, an area rich in seafood sought by trawlers from China and other countries. Last year, Argentina’s coast guard sank a Chinese fishing ship in those waters after it tried to elude authorities.

On the San Juan’s last mission, nothing seems to have gone wrong until the captain ordered the vessel to surface sometime on Nov. 14, a week after it first set out.

That would normally have been a routine decision. Diesel-electric subs rely on a giant bank of batteries to glide silently underwater, making them hard to detect, said William Craig Reed, a former U.S. Navy diver and submariner. Nuclear subs, which have long made up the entire U.S. submarine fleet, can go for months at a time underwater.

A diesel-electric sub’s batteries only hold a charge for about a week while submerged, so it must surface and “snorkel,” running its engines to recharge the batteries and ventilate stale air.

In this case, the sub surfaced amid rough seas, with 23-foot-high waves that may have caused the sub to take on too much water through its snorkel, Argentine Navy spokesman Capt. Enrique Balbi said. The snorkel is equipped with a flap to keep water out, but water can sometimes get in anyway, navy officials said.

The Argentine military submarine San Juan and crew leaving Buenos Aires on June 2, 2014. PHOTO: ARMADA ARGENTINA/REUTERS

At 30 minutes after midnight on Nov. 15, sometime after resurfacing, the ship sent a report saying seawater came through the ventilation system and into contact with the batteries, “causing a short-circuit and the beginning of a fire in the batteries tray,” according to a transcript of the crew’s message.

Hours later, at 7:30 a.m., the sub sent another report through a satellite phone that the crew had got the fire under control but lost use of the batteries in the ship’s bow.

That was the San Juan’s last communication.

Back in Argentina’s naval headquarters in Buenos Aires, there wasn’t yet cause for major alarm, since there were backup batteries to charge the sub.

“They had to electrically isolate the [damaged] batteries and continue navigating to Mar del Plata with another battery circuit and stern,” said Capt. Balbi, a submarine specialist who has repeatedly stressed that the vessels often require attention for minor problems.

Jorge Villareal, a retired navy veteran, said his son, crew member Fernando Villareal, spoke proudly of his ability to fix daily problems as they arose on the ship.

“He never told me of any serious technical faults,” Mr. Villareal said. “For him, it was easy to fix the submarine’s problems because he was an electronics technician. He said it was like changing a lightbulb at home.”

When the crew reported the problem, a submarine commander on shore ordered the sub to continue sailing north to Mar del Plata instead of heading west on the shortest possible course to land. That decision may have kept the submarine in deeper waters, making it harder for search-and-rescue teams to find, some family members and Argentine media have said.

Capt. Balbi disputes that criticism.

“At no time did the commander of the ship, or his superior, see this as an emergency or an event of great magnitude because they were able to resolve the problem by using backup power systems,” he said. Other ports located due west of the submarine, he added, would have also been too shallow for it to dock.

At 10:51 a.m. on Nov. 15—some three hours after the ship reported it had solved the fire problem—a “violent, nonnuclear event” occurred some 35 miles north of the sub’s last known location, according to reports from acoustic experts in the U.S. and at the Comprehensive Nuclear Test Ban Treaty Organization in Vienna.

Most outside experts say the calamity likely arose from the batteries. Submarines like the San Juan use lead batteries that produce highly flammable hydrogen, which must be kept at low levels and closely monitored, said Ney Zanella dos Santos, CEO of Amazônia Azul Tecnologias de Defesa SA, a state company linked to Brazil’s navy and created to help the country build submarines.

Precisely how the battery problems may have led to an explosion isn’t clear, however. “It’s like in airplane disasters—normally it is because of a series of things that went wrong,” said Nestor Antunes de Magalhães, a Brazilian military researcher.

Naval personnels’ concerns grew when they heard no more from the San Juan the next day. By the night of Nov. 16, the navy alerted Argentine President Mauricio Macri. On Nov. 19, when the sub was due at Mar del Plata, there was no sign of the vessel.

Luis Tagliapietra’s 27-year-old son Alejandro was on his last training mission on the sub to become a weapons specialist. Mr. Tagliapietra, a 55-year-old criminal-defense lawyer, says he rarely visited his son during his two years on the base. “It’s something that now I’ll never forgive myself for,” he said. “I regret not spending more time with him and less with my work.”


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## AWP (Dec 4, 2017)

Flap failures on snorkel-equipped boats goes back to WWII. Another problem is when water washes over the snorkel and triggers it sensor, the flap works but the crew pays a price. The sudden loss of air forces an overpressure in the boat until the flap opens again; Side effects run from discomfort to ruptured eardrums.

Water in a battery compartment has doomed a number of subs. When I was on a U-boat history kick a few years ago, I read how water-induced battery issues either killed a number of subs outright or caused the evacuation of a perfectly good sub. Even in cases where a crew could work through battle damage, battery issues usually resulted in a loss or evacuation. 

The crew and equipment could be top-notch, but some activites have little margin for error. You simply die if you don't break the chain.

Blue Skies.


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## Frank S. (Dec 4, 2017)

*- Mod edit -*

@Frank S. 

Sorry man.  That video just does not belong in this particular thread.  
Ooh-Rah


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 5, 2017)

0o


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## Kraut783 (Dec 5, 2017)

It takes a certain type of man to be a submariner.....nice tour of the U-boat!


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## AWP (Dec 5, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I was on the same kick a few years ago. I just could not find enough to read about the German U-Boats. Here is a tour of one of the final batch of U-Boats that were made, a 900 series,



I'm sorry old friend, but that's not accurate. 

U-Boat classes:
U-boat Types - German U-boats of WWII - Kriegsmarine - uboat.net

U-995:
The Type VIIC/41 U-boat U-995 - German U-boats of WWII - uboat.net

U-Boat types were essentially "1" - "23" with boat numbering done randomly to confuse the Allies as to their exact numbers. -995 was laid down in 1942 and the IX series was first laid down in 1936.


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## Gunz (Dec 6, 2017)

Very interesting U-Boat tour @Red Flag 1 ...thanks for posting. And love the uboat.net links. I'll be spending a few idle hours browsing that site.

RIP Sailors.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 6, 2017)

AWP said:


> I'm sorry old friend, but that's not accurate.


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## AWP (Dec 6, 2017)

I know I've mentioned him before, but look up Clay Blair's excellent series on U-boats. The second can be dry and flat at times, but both are excellent


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 6, 2017)

.


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## digrar (Dec 6, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> That's very unfortunate.  I'll confess to not knowing the Argentinians had a submarine force prior to this incident.  I guess it makes sense given the "got to fight the British" thing.



They had a sub force during the war, 2 boats at least, the Brits took one of them out.


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## Centermass (Dec 6, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> The battery-and-diesel-powered submarine, delivered by its German manufacturer, *Thyssenkrupp*, in 1985, was being used by the Argentine Navy to track illegal fishing in the South Atlantic Ocean, an area rich in seafood sought by trawlers from China and other countries. Last year, Argentina’s coast guard sank a Chinese fishing ship in those waters after it tried to elude authorities.



Learn something new everyday. Had no idea Thyssenkrupp manufactured subs. I thought their main deal was elevators. 

Makes sense. Both go up and down.......


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## CQB (Dec 7, 2017)

digrar said:


> They had a sub force during the war, 2 boats at least, the Brits took one of them out.


 During the Falklands War the Argie subs were the only thing that kept the Brits up at night. BTW @Centremass check out what Westinghouse pump out apart from fridges.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 16, 2017)

Maybe if the military didn't blatantly lie about what they knew, he could have saved his job?

Argentina fires head of navy after submarine tragedy | Daily Mail Online

Argentina has sacked the head of its navy a month after a submarine vanished along with all 44 crew members. 
Admiral Marcelo Eduardo Hipólito Srur was let go by defense minister Oscar Aguad on Saturday, according to local media.


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## BloodStripe (Dec 16, 2017)




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## CQB (Dec 16, 2017)

Agreed.


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## BloodStripe (Dec 24, 2017)

Argentina submarine chased by British helicopter before vanishing, sailor's sister claims

This came out a few days ago. Argentina is of course denying this and no word from Her Majesty or the Chileans. 

On another note, there has been a new hit from sonar in the area thought to be near the doomed vessel.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 24, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> On another note, there has been a new hit from sonar in the area thought to be near the doomed vessel.



Just saw that.

Argentine submarine sonar search makes new contact | Daily Mail Online


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## Ooh-Rah (Apr 10, 2018)

@PDL 

Any thoughts on this story?


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## PDL (Apr 11, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @PDL
> 
> Any thoughts on this story?


A lot of current and former submariners donated to the families.  There were a few theories flying around my Facebook group but I won't post them because they are not confirmed.

As far as I know, the submarine has not been located.

In the Royal Navy, submariners are trained to escape from a sunk submarine by wearing a bouyant suit and exiting via an escape hatch.  This has its depth limits though due to deep sea pressure.  More here: Submarine escape training facility - Wikipedia

The Royal Navy maintains a DSRV which is small submarine designed to latch onto a sunk submarine and Evac personnel through a hatch.  This requires a location though.  I believe the US also has this capability, but I don't think anyone else does.

This service was offered during the sinking of the Kursk in 2000 but the Russians refused all assistance.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 23, 2018)

Years of tense US-Argentina ties began to ease with a desperate search for a lost sub

Burried a few months ago was the signing of a contract by a US company to resume searching for the missing sub. The company will not be paid unless they find the sub.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 23, 2018)

Wow, they must be pretty sure they're going to find that sub.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 17, 2018)

*- update -*

Argentina: Submarine found sunk year after disappearing

Argentina's navy announced early Saturday that searchers had found the missing submarine ARA San Juan deep in the Atlantic a year after it disappeared with 44 crewmen aboard.

The vessel was detected more than 2,600 feet deep in waters off the Valdes Peninsula in Argentine Patagonia, the statement said.

The navy said a "positive identification" had been made by a remote-operated submersible from the American ship Ocean Infinity, which was hired for the latest search for the missing vessel.


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## BloodStripe (Nov 17, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> Wow, they must be pretty sure they're going to find that sub.



Didnt take too long either. 


Glad those families can have their closure.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 18, 2018)

Argentina minister says country without means to rescue sub. Argentina minister says country without means to rescue sub

BUENOS AIRES, Argentina — Hours after announcing the discovery of an Argentine submarine lost deep in the Atlantic a year ago with 44 crew members aboard, the government said Saturday that it is unable to recover the vessel, drawing anger from missing sailors' relatives who demanded that it be raised.

Defense Minister Oscar Aguad said at a press conference that the country lacks "modern technology" capable of "verifying the seabed" to extract the ARA San Juan, which was found 907 meters (2,975 feet) deep in waters off the Valdes Peninsula in Argentine Patagonia, roughly 600 kilometers (373 miles) from the port city of Comodoro Rivadavia.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 18, 2018)

Who does? Raising that sub requires perfect weather and specialized equipment that probably only we have.


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## SpitfireV (Nov 18, 2018)

I think you guys are more expert at salvaging surface ships these days.


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## Gunz (Nov 18, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> I think you guys are more expert at salvaging surface ships these days.




ouch


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 18, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> I think you guys are more expert at salvaging surface ships these days.


Cool...but that would require us actually sinking them...so far we've avoided that.


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## Kraut783 (Nov 18, 2018)

If the US would offer to bring it up, no strings attached.....it would really help our relationship with Argentina. It's a good opportunity.


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## SpitfireV (Nov 18, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Cool...but that would require us actually sinking them...so far we've avoided that.



You must be a very fun and interesting person to hang out with.


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## DA SWO (Nov 18, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> If the US would offer to bring it up, no strings attached.....it would really help our relationship with Argentina. It's a good opportunity.


Do we still have that capability?
Better photos might help with closure too.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 18, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> Do we still have that capability?


I think that is a good question.  If I recall, Titanic is down around 12k feet and there was discussion of raising her but it was decided the ship was too fragile.  It give me the impression that raising from 2k' is certainly doable.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 18, 2018)

We currently still maintain two Salvage ships with Sealift Command.  Thankfully we haven't had to practice on ourselves too often since the 60s.  Kursk operation was led by a Norwegian Company.


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## PDL (Dec 14, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I think that is a good question.  If I recall, Titanic is down around 12k feet and there was discussion of raising her but it was decided the ship was too fragile.  It give me the impression that raising from 2k' is certainly doable.


I was just reading up on the Kursk recovery and it sounds like it was from 364ft and it cost the Russians 65million dollars.  They contracted a Dutch maritime salvage company for part of it.

I imagine 2000ft makes the operation even more difficult.  Probably just a question of dollars at the end of the day, though.  I doubt Argentina has the funds.


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## PDL (Dec 14, 2018)

This was probably a horrifying way to die.  Most submarines won't go deeper than 200m on operations, maybe 300-400m on a deep dive test.  The deep dive test depth is 50-70% of the theoretical max depth. The max depth isn't tested physically, of course.

If the Submarine lost control/power due to system failure, the crew could have been watching them selves gradually sink on the various depth guages around the boat.  Once they went past 300m, they would have known that it was only matter of time until they reached crush depth, when the sea pressure would crush the submarine and everything inside it.  Essentially, you would be watching your life tick away on a plummeting depth gauge.


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