# Canuckistan trade wars...



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 14, 2018)

https://nypost.com/2018/06/14/canadians-boycott-us-products-cancel-vacations-to-america/

Is this real? Or is this just the political media machine playing its hand.

Just curious about the word on the ground level.


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## Gunz (Jun 14, 2018)

There's a saying here in the Sunshine State: Happiness is 100,000 New Yorkers headed north with a Canadian under each arm. 

@RackMaster Canadians are welcome here. Trudeau Canadians can fuck off.


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## DA SWO (Jun 14, 2018)

No biggie, not like Americans are working in those stores, etc, in Canada.

Feel free to stay in Canada, especially this winter.  Florida will survive.

NY Post just trying to gin up some outrage.


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## RackMaster (Jun 14, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> No biggie, not like Americans are working in those stores, etc, in Canada.
> 
> Feel free to stay in Canada, especially this winter.  Florida will survive.
> 
> NY Post just trying to gin up some outrage.



No it's completely legit and they're talking online and cross border shopping.  I honestly can't believe how many Canadian's don't realize how connected our economies are and how fucked we're going to be once the cold hits.  

This is all because Trudeau is up for re-election next year and he's already doing shitty.  The sticking point is our dairy and poultry "cartels", supply management, which only accounts for 6% of all our agriculture.  It goes back to post war and has no real benefit now, the only dairy farms that support it are all corporations now and the idiots that support them can afford our expensive food to begin with.


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## DA SWO (Jun 14, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> No it's completely legit and they're talking online and cross border shopping.  I honestly can't believe how many Canadian's don't realize how connected our economies are and how fucked we're going to be once the cold hits.
> 
> This is all because Trudeau is up for re-election next year and he's already doing shitty.  The sticking point is our dairy and poultry "cartels", supply management, which only accounts for 6% of all our agriculture.  It goes back to post war and has no real benefit now, the only dairy farms that support it are all corporations now and the idiots that support them can afford our expensive food to begin with.


Trudeau could cut the tariffs by 50% and both sides could declare a win.
Let's see how long this goes on.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 14, 2018)

Idk how it's working up in the northern states, but 90% of the carbon steel we're using down here comes from Mexico. Stainless and Aluminum tend to be USA made products. But I imagine that's more to do with geographic location. I honestly don't know what the major issues are with the trade situation,  but obviously hate to see us putting relationships with both Candada and Mexico in binds. That said, in my current trade (welder/fabricator) these tariffs are affecting my customer base more than me, but I can see a long term affect with my residential clients not being able to afford some of the more common projects due to cost hikes.

I just hope it gets worked out soon, it may  be good for the production side of the American worker, but it will have a ripple effect on the trades and mainly the consumers in the long run.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Jun 14, 2018)

The true reason for the meeting......


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## RackMaster (Jun 15, 2018)

Here's a good article from the Canadian perspective.

Kevin Libin: Trudeau stumbled into a trade war. That isn’t all Trump’s fault

@Diamondback 2/2 considering 95% of all our steel exports go to the US, this is only going to hurt the end user.

Worried about U.S. tariffs on steel and aluminum?

Best piece I've read yet. 

Lawrence Solomon: Trudeau starts a trade war for political points. We’re the casualties


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## Devildoc (Jun 15, 2018)




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## RackMaster (Jun 15, 2018)




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## Blizzard (Jun 15, 2018)

90+% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the U.S. border.  Coincidence? I think not.


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## Gunz (Jun 15, 2018)




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## RackMaster (Jun 15, 2018)

Blizzard said:


> 90+% of Canadians live within 100 miles of the U.S. border.  Coincidence? I think not.



Cause it's a fucking inhospitable country.  How many American's live near the Northern border?


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## AWP (Jun 15, 2018)

Look, the best way to end this trade war is the only sensible course of action....

Invasion. Canadians are too polite to form an insurgency, we have free, shitty gov't run healthcare, and we can allow them to keep their land as a territory or whatever crap Puerto Rico does...and no pesky hurricanes! They have oil, inhospitable terrain, a crappy leader...they're Iraq light.


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## policemedic (Jun 15, 2018)

...and poutine.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 15, 2018)

Huh.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 16, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Huh.



Yeah....what the fuck Canada?

Like for real though, those are some pretty staggering numbers. And then they want to get all fuck Trump and boycotting American products, when they have been hitting us with tariffs like that...


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## Marauder06 (Jun 16, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Huh.



The rate on dairy is crazy:
Checking Trump on Canada's 270% tariff on milk


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## R.Caerbannog (Jun 16, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> The rate on dairy is crazy:
> Checking Trump on Canada's 270% tariff on milk


Found a neat video on Canada's dairy industry. From what I understand, the Canadian consumer gets hosed at the register due to the lobbying power of the dairy industry in Canada.






Some of my friends from Northern Idaho have also mentioned Canadians buying groceries, especially multiple 10lb blocks of cheese, across the border due to the lower cost.

On the bright side, I've heard that beef tends to fall within the same price as chicken over in Canukistan. @RackMaster is the beef pricing thing true?


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## RackMaster (Jun 17, 2018)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Found a neat video on Canada's dairy industry. From what I understand, the Canadian consumer gets hosed at the register due to the lobbying power of the dairy industry in Canada.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Beef pricing varies, the only "standardized beef prices you'll find is if it's Alberta beef but they have a brand to protect and its quality meat.  It's similar to American poultry pricing but poultry here is "fixed" just like dairy.  The same model is used for dairy, chicken, turkey and eggs.


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## CQB (Jun 17, 2018)

No-one benefits from a trade war & this goes for those in the US as well. I do see the US point raised on how tariffs are a NATSEC issue, as steel & aluminium will not be beholden to foreign suppliers in the event of a war or other catastrophe, which can compromise their supply. But IMO that's a long bow to draw particularly as the said steel & aluminium comes from an ally.


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## Dienekes (Jun 17, 2018)

CQB said:


> No-one benefits from a trade war



That depends. If your goal is purely economic welfare, then sure, but if your goal is to gain influence or achieve other objectives, it’s not so clear cut.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jun 18, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> Beef pricing varies, the only "standardized beef prices you'll find is if it's Alberta beef but they have a brand to protect and its quality meat.  It's similar to American poultry pricing but poultry here is "fixed" just like dairy.  The same model is used for dairy, chicken, turkey and eggs.


Does having a Supply Management system on those items help at all with the cost of groceries in Canada? I know dairy is way more expensive, does the same apply to the other goods like chicken, turkey, and eggs?


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## digrar (Jun 18, 2018)

CQB said:


> . But IMO that's a long bow to draw particularly as the said steel & aluminium comes from an ally.



An ally or an alloy...?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 18, 2018)

Hmmm, I've been reading and thinking on this quite a bit over the weekend. I don't have a problem with tariffs being added to any Canadian product until they stop charging us tarrifs on ours. Fair is fair, and the fact that Canadians of all people would get all bent up about some tariffs on steel and aluminum when they have been tarrifing the fuck out of us on a shitload of products. Then cry out for boycotts of American made product's or state the won't visit the United States?

Yeah, NO, that's a bunch of bullshit. I love my Canadian friends, but that is some straight bullshit. My understanding NAFTA was free and open trade. Obviously that is not the case... I hate to say it but I'm totally behind Trump on this one, and honestly think he should bring Canada to the table humbled by  doubling any tariff rate that Canada has used on our products. The American consumer may suffer a slight price hike in the meantime, it will be very different for Canada and Mexico. We in the United States are consumers well over our producing capabilities, and we can make trade deals with anyone in the world. We can make or break your industries and we should be treated fairly in our trade... Canada from what I have seen, has been taking advantage of the situation. Controlling their markets, selling to us, but taxing the fuck out of what we sell to them... yeah not cool.


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## RackMaster (Jun 18, 2018)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Does having a Supply Management system on those items help at all with the cost of groceries in Canada? I know dairy is way more expensive, does the same apply to the other goods like chicken, turkey, and eggs?



It used to help Canadian's but now it just fucks us.  Any poultry product isn't exactly affordable and it shows when the only time I see a lot of people buying is when they are selling off a glut of products at deep discounts after major holidays.   Eggs can be relatively "cheap" but it's still $3+ a dozen. 

It's been the standard for so long that most people don't have a clue.  I live along the border, even with our shitty dollar/exchange rates, duties, taxes; a lot of people still shop across the border.  Cause it's cheaper.  Everyone else believes the propaganda demonizing growth hormones and claiming all US dairy is "tainted".  I don't see much talk about poultry, so I don't think they realize it's affected by price fixing as well.


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## SpitfireV (Jun 18, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Hmmm, I've been reading and thinking on this quite a bit over the weekend. I don't have a problem with tariffs being added to any Canadian product until they stop charging us tarrifs on ours. Fair is fair, and the fact that Canadians of all people would get all bent up about some tariffs on steel and aluminum when they have been tarrifing the fuck out of us on a shitload of products. Then cry out for boycotts of American made product's or state the won't visit the United States?
> 
> Yeah, NO, that's a bunch of bullshit. I love my Canadian friends, but that is some straight bullshit. My understanding NAFTA was free and open trade. Obviously that is not the case... I hate to say it but I'm totally behind Trump on this one, and honestly think he should bring Canada to the table humbled by  doubling any tariff rate that Canada has used on our products. The American consumer may suffer a slight price hike in the meantime, it will be very different for Canada and Mexico. We in the United States are consumers well over our producing capabilities, and we can make trade deals with anyone in the world. We can make or break your industries and we should be treated fairly in our trade... Canada from what I have seen, has been taking advantage of the situation. Controlling their markets, selling to us, but taxing the fuck out of what we sell to them... yeah not cool.



LOL. You guys were doing that for years to us. Shit happens in war and trade. Don't pretend you guys are some kind of saints.


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## Gunz (Jun 18, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> LOL. You guys were doing that for years to us. Shit happens in war and trade. Don't pretend you guys are some kind of saints.



Who's pretending?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 18, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> LOL. You guys were doing that for years to us. Shit happens in war and trade. Don't pretend you guys are some kind of saints.



Where did I pretend that we are saints. 

And go on, show me what evidence you have to support your claim that we did it to New Zealand in the last 24 years.  Or even better show me what the trade agreements were between our two countries and the tarrifs imposed by your country vs my country.

Otherwise you are just making attention getting comments (like usual) without adding substance to the discussion which also has nothing to do with you, because you are from neither of the countries being discussed.


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## SpitfireV (Jun 18, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Where did I pretend that we are saints.
> 
> And go on, show me what evidence you have to support your claim that we did it to New Zealand in the last 24 years.  Or even better show me what the trade agreements were between our two countries and the tarrifs imposed by your country vs my country.
> 
> Otherwise you are just making attention getting comments (like usual) without adding substance to the discussion which also has nothing to do with you, because you are from neither of the countries being discussed.



Stop being so patronising and leave out the personal attacks. If you have issues with the way I post, report them. 

Here's one. This was the status quo for decades. You can google more, I'm sure.
US tariffs on lamb tipped at minimum 20pc

BTW, you're not from Africa or North Korea or anywhere else other than the US so maybe you'd like to stop posting on anything to do with those countries? This is a discussion forum. How dare you tell me what I can't comment on.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 18, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> Stop being so patronising and leave out the personal attacks. If you have issues with the way I post, report them.
> 
> Here's one. This was the status quo for decades. You can google more, I'm sure.
> US tariffs on lamb tipped at minimum 20pc
> ...



You are the one who entered the conversation talking shit. I just called you on it. You post whatever you want,  but if your going to quote me and say I'm "pretending we are saints" because I call bullshit on Canada's bullshit. Then I'm going to call you on your bullshit. 

Now back to your "claims" that the United States has tarrifed you for years. That article is from 2000 and only talks about sheep being tarrifed at 20%. Not really why, or what trade agreements are or were in place. Nor does it say what tarrifs NZ had in places against USA goods. Yes I know how to Google,  but yet again, you made the claims, this thread is about Canada and the United States and the current "trade war" and not about New Zealand sheep tarrifs of 2000. 

If you want to offer a supported opinion, I'll be happy to read your supporting info. Otherwise you can take your "let me make some BS comments and act like victim when I get called out it" bullshit and move right the fuck along.😘


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## amlove21 (Jun 18, 2018)

@Diamondback 2/2 @SpitfireV , enough. Points to both. 

Of all things to get caught up in your feelings about, Canadian trade is an odd choice.


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## SpitfireV (Jun 18, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> @Diamondback 2/2 @SpitfireV , enough. Points to both.
> 
> Of all things to get caught up in your feelings about, Canadian trade is an odd choice.



Roger.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jun 18, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> It used to help Canadian's but now it just fucks us.  Any poultry product isn't exactly affordable and it shows when the only time I see a lot of people buying is when they are selling off a glut of products at deep discounts after major holidays.   Eggs can be relatively "cheap" but it's still $3+ a dozen.
> 
> It's been the standard for so long that most people don't have a clue.  I live along the border, even with our shitty dollar/exchange rates, duties, taxes; a lot of people still shop across the border.  Cause it's cheaper.  Everyone else believes the propaganda demonizing growth hormones and claiming all US dairy is "tainted".  I don't see much talk about poultry, so I don't think they realize it's affected by price fixing as well.


Holy crap, that sucks. Here's hoping that the average Canadian gets access to the American agricultural industry and cheaper consumer prices. I thought a dozen eggs at < 1.30 were reasonable, over three bucks is robbery.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 19, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> Here's one. This was the status quo for decades. You can google more, I'm sure.
> US tariffs on lamb tipped at minimum 20pc



I’m pretty sure that Clinton-era policy was repealed more than a decade ago.  And I think it was only in place for a few years, not decades.


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## SpitfireV (Jun 19, 2018)

We had trouble for a long long time getting access. I'm sure it went back to the 80s. But that's beside the point- which is that you guys have done what people in the thread have complained about Canada doing. 

It's the whole point of a tariff after all. Protecting your industry.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 19, 2018)

Negative. The point is, your post was factually inaccurate.  I want you to admit that.  I’m tired of people putting out bad info and trying to obfuscate or misdirect when someone takes the time to fact check them. 

As far as tariffs go, I think they are almost always a bad thing both economically and politically.  However, they can be useful as part of issue linkage to get other countries to act in ways that ultimately benefit us.  The US tariff on NZ lamb was a stupid and useless love on our part.  It was pure political patronage.  The courts correctly found against us on that one and I’m glad that tariff is gone.


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## SpitfireV (Jun 19, 2018)

It's not intentional inaccuracy but I will stand and withdraw.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 20, 2018)

I guess I'm dumb... but a free trade agreement means a FREE trade agreement. I don't know the ends and outs as much as I should...but what I have read and researched... I'm calling bullshit!


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## SpitfireV (Jun 20, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I guess I'm dumb... but a free trade agreement means a FREE trade agreement. I don't know the ends and outs as much as I should...but what I have read and researched... I'm calling bullshit!



Sorry mate, are you referring to my posts?


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## Dienekes (Jun 20, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I guess I'm dumb... but a free trade agreement means a FREE trade agreement. I don't know the ends and outs as much as I should...but what I have read and researched... I'm calling bullshit!



I had a professor in an intro econ class that said: "If a free trade agreement was actually about free trade, it would be 1 page, have some political fluff about cooperation, and 1 sentence saying that the two or more parties agree to free and unencumbered trade. Instead NAFTA is X hundred pages long." The problem in recent history was almost never geo-politically focused unlike the more recent trade events. Most usually trade agreements are dictated by lobbies and political associations (Farmers, Manufacturers, etc.) because they know that, contrary to popular opinion, there are ALWAYS losers in any trade deal, and those losers can be very detrimental to the careers of policymakers in Washington.

Most people are taught that free trade in every shape, form, and fashion is good. In layman's term that is true. The economic welfare of the country engaging in trade is increased, but the gains are distributed unevenly and are considered in the aggregate. Typically, these gains are the sum of wins and losses in every industry as the economy adjusts to new prices and competition. Think of it this way: a rising tide lifts all boats, but they don't tell you that the tide is preceded by a storm or even a hurricane that destroys or severely injures the older, less-maintained boats. The truth is free trade forces the less competitive firm out of business. People may complain about the supposed death of American manufacturing, but no one stops buying shit made in China. Then, businesses try to find ways to cut cost, and the highest cost of nearly any business is labor so they start layoffs. Then, they realize that production is down, and bring in cheaper labor often younger and less experienced, or in some industries immigrants willing to work for less, hence the "THEY'RE TAKING ER JERBS" mantra. People need someone to blame for their misfortune and inability to change with the times, and that blame often falls on foreigners, greedy companies, or welfare recipients, and sometimes technology (which is always seen as a necessary evil and people relent), but never free trade.

In fact, there is a fascinating article that I read in college, incredibly dense and lengthy but worth the read, concerning unchecked, accelerated globalized trade as the major cause of tension from late 1800s to 1990's that can be used to draw parallels to the high levels of nationalism and polarization in society experienced over the last decade aka Brexit, 2016 election, etc.

BLUF: The reason for tariffs is typically lobbies because no one wants to compete with foreign competition and risk sending your economic welfare to some other industry. And seriously this book is eye-opening and illuminates the economic machinations of our competitors along with the naivete in Washington:  War by Other Means: Geoeconomics and Statecraft


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 20, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> Sorry mate, are you referring to my posts?


Nope.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 1, 2018)

Canada and US reach deal to replace NAFTA

So it looks like NAFTA has become USMCA...

Nothing real specific on what the full deal is yet, but I'm interested in reading it.

I know some crazy shit has been talked about, like at one point requiring 85% point of origin in North America and 50% point of origin in the USA for all automobiles. That would have crippled the Canadian auto industry, and driven car prices up stupid high. Or the other point of contention, Canada's 400% tarrifs on Dairy...WTF Canaderps?

Anyway, glad to see some of this bullshit finely getting worked out. Now if we can just add a couple oil & gas pipelines, my ass will be set...


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