# SAR Pack



## Frisco (Jan 25, 2011)

Good Afternoon guys (and ladies),

As you may, (or may not know) I'm a civilian SAR tech.  Historically I've been mostly into water rescue/recovery, mostly diving, but I'm moving up in the land based SAR world, and it's time to upgrade the pack.

Basically getting down to it.  I don't have alot of experience with pack's, aside from backpacking packs which subscribe to the "dump bag" philosophy which doesn't work well in SAR, and I was wondering if anyone could make any recommendations as most, if not all of you have experience with assault style packs/medic bags.

My Thoughts:
The pack must be able to hold enough gear to sustain me, and the victim for 24 hours.  I need quick access to what I need when I need it, without having to dump stuff out and re-pack.  I'm not a team medic, but I do have First Responder training, so a basic BLS kit/personal medic kit is all I'll pack as far as that goes at this point.  Don't worry about technical gear, that's taken care of.

I was looking at the Eberlestock X1E because it has the main compartment seperated in half with a "shelf" and each resulting compartment has a "barn door" opening for easy access inside.   (Plus I get a discount on eberlestock)  http://eberlestock.com/X1E Euro.htm  Sorry, I tried to link pictures, but it didn't work..   My only concern is that this may be a little small when "call out" packed..

I'm open to any, and all suggestions, or advice on what I should or should not be looking for.

Thanks


----------



## x SF med (Jan 26, 2011)

How about Maxpedition Vulture


----------



## SpitfireV (Jan 26, 2011)

I was going to suggest the Eagle 3 Day Assault Pack or whatever it's called now but it's basically the same as what X posted up thar. I have a Chinese knockoff of it (real one is too expensive for me) and I really like it.


----------



## buffalo61 (Jan 26, 2011)

https://shadowspear.com/vb/threads/rucksacks.1336/

A ton of excellent information about rucksacks in this thread.


----------



## AWP (Jan 26, 2011)

Frisco said:


> The pack must be able to hold enough gear to sustain me, and the victim for 24 hours.



Bam! First consideration right there: how much are you taking? What is the weight and packed mass of said items? Do you need a fudge factor for different terrain or seasons?

You might as well ask us to recommend a car because you need to "carry people places."


----------



## Frisco (Jan 26, 2011)

Basically like your standard survival/day pack, plus decent rain gear, clothing layers, a bigger first aid kit, and a tarp shelter, water, and food for two. .  We do get sent all over TN, in any conditions, so adaptability is pretty important..

 The big issue I'm having is that pack needs to handle a little bulk, (layers of clothing, rain gear, tarp shelter) but still be organized and carry the weight well, because the majority of my actual weight will be the water/gear.    Maybe somewhere around  3000 Cubic Inches bulk wise, and maybe  20-25 lbs, roughly.   I could pack all the non bulk gear in a good sized day pack, but it wouldn't handle the bulk, or the weight comfortably.


----------



## txpj007 (Jan 26, 2011)

Mystery ranch has the best packs on the market IMO.  They are a little pricey sometimes but well worth it.  Another thing to consider for organization is stuff sacks inside your pack. That solves your problem for "dump bag" stlye packs.  Alice Packs would fall into that catergory and PJ's have used them for SAR for years.


----------



## AWP (Jan 26, 2011)

Frisco, are you considering civilian packs as well?


----------



## Frisco (Jan 26, 2011)

I actually hadn't even thought about stuff sacks.. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





  Yes.  I'll consider any pack..


----------



## AWP (Jan 27, 2011)

Frisco said:


> I actually hadn't even thought about stuff sacks.. :eek:
> 
> Yes. I'll consider any pack..



In addition to the Ruck thread posted earlier....

For civvie packs I'd look at North Face, Osprey, Gregory, and Kelty.

Military: I find Kifaru to be horribly overpriced, same as Mystery Ranch, but both are well built. CSM Gear and High Speed Gear both make nice rucks which aren't nearly as expensive as Kifaru and MR. I like my Tactical Tailor Malice 3, but the hardware on it leaves something to be desired. TT has an Extended Range Operator (everything is for an Operator, but I digress.....) Pack which is pretty close to what you're describing.

A final option is to buy a used but in good shape old school large ALICE pack and send it off to have pouches added as needed to suit your requirements. I'm sure there are places near Ft. Campbell which do that, plus a number of solid companies will allow you to send them your ruck and they'll do the mods. Buy a new set of good, aftermarket kidney and shoulder straps with a frame (MR makes the NICE frame which is awesome but expensive) and you are in business.

You have options.


----------



## Frisco (Jan 27, 2011)

Thanks for all the help guys..  Lots of good leads.


----------



## AWP (Jan 27, 2011)

One mod I've often wondered about is a reversable top flap on your ruck. A VS-17 piece on one side and the outer color of the ruck on the other side, maybe even incorporate some reflective and IR tape on the VS-17 side? Maybe an entire cover like that for a civilian application?

Just a random thought I've had, I have no idea if it could be used practically.


----------



## SpitfireV (Jan 27, 2011)

Here's a thought (to use the dreaded A word): on some of the airsoft gear sites you can buy cheap Chinese knockoffs of many military pack designs. They're often around 1/3rd the price. You could always buy one of those, see if you like the thing, the size inside (MOLLE straps are usually sown wonky though), the features, how they feel etc.Then if you like it you can buy the real thing. Some of the quality control can be quite good too, from some makers.

This is the pack design I have...not from that maker though I hear Flyye stuff is supposed to be quite good quality.
http://shop.ehobbyasia.com/combat-gears/bags-cases/backpack/flyye-molle-aiii-3-day-backpack.html


Just an idea.


----------



## Frisco (Jan 27, 2011)

Freefalling said:


> One mod I've often wondered about  is a reversable top flap on your ruck. A VS-17 piece on one side and the  outer color of the ruck on the other side, maybe even incorporate some  reflective and IR tape on the VS-17 side? Maybe an entire cover like  that for a civilian application?
> 
> Just a random thought I've had, I have no idea if it could be used practically.



Interesting idea..

           I was on a call not too long ago where we had to call in THP to fly over in a helo to help us find an Autistic boy who had wondered off from home.  Obviously we're clearly marked with vests, but the issue was all the volunteers that showed up were not.   Apparently his church got the call before we did.

          We don't really like to use volunteers because of the liability, they aren't trained, and if we say an area's clear it better be clear, plus they have a tendency to get hurt, or mess up the trail.  Due to the situation we basically had to use them; (The boy didn't have a shirt or shoes on{it was still fall}, it was getting dark, he was in a pretty rough area{sink holes and dried up ravines filled with rusty landfill},  his father was deployed, and he  refused to talk to any male's except his father, and would only answer  women he knew.  Plus it's hard to explain liability in a situation like that.)

          It would have simplified things a lot if we all had clearly marked packs.  We could have given our vests up to the volunteers and let them search while the helo was overhead. (obviously the helo doesn't do much good if there are unmarked people wondering around the area)  We ended up working around it by putting one of our guys as leader of each volunteer team, (which would be SOG for the situation) but if I remember correctly the THP requested we maintain position while they were in our area so there wouldn't be confusion with the unmarked people.. Thankfully we found the boy pretty quickly so that never became an issue, but in that situation holding up the ground search could have turned out bad..


----------



## Mac_NZ (Jan 27, 2011)

Freefalling said:


> One mod I've often wondered about is a reversable top flap on your ruck. A VS-17 piece on one side and the outer color of the ruck on the other side, maybe even incorporate some reflective and IR tape on the VS-17 side? Maybe an entire cover like that for a civilian application?
> 
> Just a random thought I've had, I have no idea if it could be used practically.



On selection we got given hi viz pack lid covers that fitted on our Alice packs so the DS could see us walking in places we were meant from a distance.  Any sew shop would be able to make one.

The other option is a pack cover which has a marker panel on the reverse.  Like this: http://www.rvops.co.uk/bergen-cover-uk-dpm-1014.html

Oddly enough a TC bloke has me making 5 of a similar design but CB one side and signal orange the other.


----------



## x SF med (Jan 27, 2011)

Or.... use the old SF trick... One VS-17 can be cut down to a series of highly visible strips that can be carried in your cargo pocket, with both sides (orange and whateverthehell they call the reverse color) available for use as needed.... sew 2 foot pieces of 550 cord onto the corners and they're great for long marking trails or signaling aircraft... or tying to the top flap of your ruck....  One VS-17 will make 6 2'x1' panels  ( the whole panel is 2' wide by  6' long...)

much more functional to have it in your cargo pocket than the flap of your ruck.


----------



## txpj007 (Jan 27, 2011)

x SF med said:


> Or.... use the old SF trick... One VS-17 can be cut down to a series of highly visible strips that can be carried in your cargo pocket, with both sides (orange and whateverthehell they call the reverse color) available for use as needed.... sew 2 foot pieces of 550 cord onto the corners and they're great for long marking trails or signaling aircraft... or tying to the top flap of your ruck.... One VS-17 will make 6 2'x1' panels ( the whole panel is 2' wide by 6' long...)
> 
> much more functional to have it in your cargo pocket than the flap of your ruck.



Cerise! The pink side is cerise! Finally i get to use that "useless" knowledge one of my old team leaders taught me.


----------



## policemedic (Jan 27, 2011)

txpj007 said:


> Cerise! The pink side is cerise! Finally i get to use that "useless" knowledge one of my old team leaders taught me.



Finally got to pop that cherry, huh.  Proud of ya


----------



## txpj007 (Jan 27, 2011)

policemedic said:


> Finally got to pop that cherry, huh.  Proud of ya


I just always thought it was funny how he pointed it out...."Its not Fucking pink! Its Cerise knucklehead!" Me: "Bro....pink is pink."


----------



## Muppet (Jan 27, 2011)

LMAO!

F.M.


----------



## Manolito (Jan 27, 2011)

I laugh at the expression untrained volunteers. Getting in the way and not knowing what they are doing. I went on one for a deaf boy and the four I was with all instructors had taught most of the Professionals their craft and we were told no place for untrained amatuers. I love Humility. The professionals missed him but we found him in a cleared area all us untrained professionals.
Let me see paul as our medic, Pardus as our tracker, hollis as our weapons man, Several on communications. Sorry I got carried away this is a sore spot for me.
Bill

PS I took two professionals to a DAN facility for pain only recompression sickness. amatuers Fuck


----------



## Muppet (Jan 28, 2011)

Manolito said:


> I laugh at the expression untrained volunteers. Getting in the way and not knowing what they are doing. I went on one for a deaf boy and the four I was with all instructors had taught most of the Professionals their craft and we were told no place for untrained amatuers. I love Humility. The professionals missed him but we found him in a cleared area all us untrained professionals.
> Let me see paul as our medic, Pardus as our tracker, hollis as our weapons man, Several on communications. Sorry I got carried away this is a sore spot for me.
> Bill
> 
> PS I took two professionals to a DAN facility for pain only recompression sickness. amatuers Fuck



Um, you ok brother? Sore subject?

F.M.


----------



## Mac_NZ (Jan 28, 2011)

x SF med said:


> Or.... use the old SF trick... One VS-17 can be cut down to a series of highly visible strips that can be carried in your cargo pocket, with both sides (orange and whateverthehell they call the reverse color) available for use as needed.... sew 2 foot pieces of 550 cord onto the corners and they're great for long marking trails or signaling aircraft... or tying to the top flap of your ruck....  One VS-17 will make 6 2'x1' panels  ( the whole panel is 2' wide by  6' long...)
> 
> much more functional to have it in your cargo pocket than the flap of your ruck.



I can picture that working well, pilots like flapping visible things.

I can also picture you dancing around the bush with it like this


----------



## AWP (Jan 28, 2011)

Some days I'm glad I can't see the videos.


----------



## buffalo61 (Jan 28, 2011)

Freefalling said:


> Some days I'm glad I can't see the videos.



Must have the same network restrictions.

I'm still working on acquiring a couple of Mystery Ranch packs for "testing" purposes, but ran into a snag with the supply chain.  From what I've read and people that I have talked to, the Mystery Ranch setups are the way to go, but can get a little pricey.  The setup I was going for was around $800, but that included the NICE frame and some add-on accessories.

I'm also looking into the Tactical Tailor set-ups.  I've heard nothing but good things about their set-ups.


----------



## Frisco (Jan 28, 2011)

Manolito said:


> ...




Don't get me wrong.. There's a place for everybody; During a land search manpower is one of the most powerful resources that you can have.  When I say untrained volunteers I mean literally untrained volunteers, not a slight toward anybody, not referring to amateurs (I think the flooding in Nashville showed we have some of the most professional amateurs around  and I feel honored to work with any of them), just people who show up that you don't know from Adam.

 I've met MANY untrained volunteers I would rather have with me than professionals.. But when your talking about people you've never met before, at least you have a base line of knowledge with people who have been through some type of training.  I've seen people show up who could  track a flee, but I've also seen a lot more untrained people do a lot of stupid, dangerous, stuff, especially when people close to the victim start getting emotional.

Like I said there is a place for everybody, it's just that considerations must be made, especially in today's sue happy society.  The days were people were just grateful for all the help they could get are long gone..  If we send out untrained people and they get hurt, that's on us.  If we send out untrained people and we find the victim 3 days later in an area they cleared, we open ourselves up to lawsuit (not just that, but we failed, the victim, the family, the community, and that's unacceptable.)..  If you take the comment as a quip toward anyone take it toward society, not the people who wish to volunteer their time to help.


----------



## HOLLiS (Jan 28, 2011)

What I would recommend, is to take your time, watch what other people (experience ones) are using, read and then make a decision.    What I would carry is based on me.   Obviously a unit may require certain things, but I tend to fine tune it to my needs and thoughts.   Having been in Mountain Rescue, SAR and CERT, experience is the best teacher.


Volunteers are a mix bag, some very professional  and some, well let say we would be better off if they stayed at home and watched TV.    My best and most professional unit that I was a member of was Corvallis Mountain Rescue.   Core leadership was very very good  and many of he members have strong medical backgrounds.   The other aspect is training.   The more the better.


----------

