# West Point's annual pillow fight...wait what?  West Point has an annual pillow fight?



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 5, 2015)

I think we can lay off of the Marine jokes for a bit now -

My god, really?

Up to 30 West Point cadets injured as annual pillow fight turns nasty


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## Brill (Sep 5, 2015)

Fuck yes! Finally some future leaders understand basic warfare!


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## AWP (Sep 5, 2015)

There's a joke or twenty about Ranger School just waiting to happen...


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## Marine0311 (Sep 5, 2015)

First it starts with pillow fights and then before you know it you're invading countries!. 

Someone has to put a stop to this reckless wanton abandonment for law and order in the military!


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## Il Duce (Sep 5, 2015)

USMA is having a bad week in the press - first the law professor who was at minimum a terrible hire, now this that smacks of hazing and poor judgment.  I'm sure the truth of both incidents is much more nuanced but USMA has got to be careful - it's alumni support network in Congress and the Executive is nowhere near what it once was.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 5, 2015)

Both of these incidents are bad.  But do you know what is REALLY going to affect alumni support?  The things that they REALLY care about?  The football team... which lost to f'ing Fordham last night.  THAT is what the Supe is going to have to answer for.


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## Ranger Psych (Sep 5, 2015)

And this is why I preferred officers who had worn the ascots and helmets at Ft. Benning.....


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## Il Duce (Sep 5, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> Both of these incidents are bad.  But do you know what is REALLY going to affect alumni support?  The things that they REALLY care about?  The football team... which lost to f'ing Fordham last night.  THAT is what the Supe is going to have to answer for.



That's part of what I mean.  The university system is rife with some tough-to-justify appropriations (sports, fund-raising, alumni programs) but have a mix of public and private financing as well as a charter with a number of objectives.  USMA on the other hand exists to produce Army officers.  Considering the expense and investment in USMA - when ROTC and OCS produce a functionally similar result - it seems more vulnerable to public scrutiny.  I think the millions of dollars paid into athletic programs and staffs at most universities is a tragic misappropriation of resources but it's up to their board of directors to decide that sort of thing.  When it's the USMA and the taxpayer is funding it I think the calculus should be a little different.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 5, 2015)

I agree with what you said up to the "taxpayer is funding" part.  As far as I know, all of the coaches salaries their (massive, on-post) housing, and the majority (if not all) of their funding is self-generated, at least for the major sports programs.


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## Il Duce (Sep 5, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> I agree with what you said up to the "taxpayer is funding" part.  As far as I know, all of the coaches salaries their (massive, on-post) housing, and the majority (if not all) of their funding is self-generated, at least for the major sports programs.



I didn't realize that for USMA.  I thought they were paid out of the school budget appropriated by Congress.  That definitely changes things, if they're paid by alumni or money the school generates then people like me have nothing to complain about...I'll still do some complaining though :).


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## AWP (Sep 5, 2015)

What cracks me up is with all of the focus on hazing and the billion or so "people matter" classes everyone's subjected to, some chuckleheads thought it a good idea to include HELMETS in this yearly tradition? I'm all about traditions and this sounds like a good one right up to the point where these guys are going out to intentionally hurt their fellow cadets. If this thing is discontinued or done with massive oversight in the future the cadets have no one to blame but themselves for being overrun with the herp a derp. Helmets and body armor? Seriously? That's the thought process for the Army's future leaders? Almost anywhere else this becomes assault and battery, but this is accepted at West Point?

Unreal. I have zero sympathy if the thought police show up and kill this event for life. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Sep 5, 2015)

I'm I the only one that saw pillow fight and thought of chicks in white t-shirts.....?

:-":blkeye:


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## Grunt (Sep 5, 2015)

Oh...the needless violence......


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## Kraut783 (Sep 6, 2015)

"Recruits allegedly put helmets into their pillow cases to cause damage"

What dicks....

...and so much for the safety power of safety belts  :-"


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 6, 2015)

I read this thread and think of: 



, just not as personal.


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## pardus (Sep 6, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Up to 30 West Point cadets injured as annual pillow fight turns nasty



What a bunch of fucking dickheads.


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## ThunderHorse (Sep 6, 2015)

Another reason to hate West Point...when I was at VMI we had sweat parties, rifle runs, and forced marches by select cadre.  At West Point...they have pillow parties.


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## SpitfireV (Sep 6, 2015)

Yeah I'm sure it's All Pillow Parties All The Time there.


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## policemedic (Sep 6, 2015)

ThunderHorse said:


> Another reason to hate West Point...when I was at VMI we had sweat parties, rifle runs, and forced marches by select cadre.  At West Point...they have pillow parties.



Well, given that West Point is the superior school vis a vis VMI, maybe there's a reason they give tacit approval to this activity.


N.B. edited for clarity.


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 6, 2015)

policemedic said:


> Well, given that West Point is a superior school, maybe there's a reason they give tacit approval to this activity.



Not sure if you meant this to be genuine or sarcastic, but I agree.  Stupid fun, let off some stress and aggression, and most important, participate in tradition.  I'm 45 years old, I've never heard of the West Point pillow fight, know why?  Cause there was no reason for me to.  For the sake of tradition, I hope it continues, but I also hope that there is genuine question of leadership for those who participated in the stupidity of adding their helmets and going out of their way to hurt folks - there is no point to that, and quite honestly those are the same people (in my opinion) who would be inclined to participate in an atrocity - just because everyone else is doing it.  This was a example of followers; not future Academy leaders- that is my core anger over this story, and I'm not even Army -


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## Etype (Sep 6, 2015)

ThunderHorse said:


> Another reason to hate West Point...when I was at VMI we had sweat parties, rifle runs, and forced marches by select cadre.  At West Point...they have pillow parties.


Sounds like someone really, really, really wanted to go to West Point...


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## policemedic (Sep 6, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Not sure if you meant this to be genuine or sarcastic, but I agree.  Stupid fun, let off some stress and aggression, and most important, participate in tradition.  I'm 45 years old, I've never heard of the West Point pillow fight, know why?  Cause there was no reason for me to.  For the sake of tradition, I hope it continues, but I also hope that there is genuine question of leadership for those who participated in the stupidity of adding their helmets and going out of their way to hurt folks - there is no point to that, and quite honestly those are the same people (in my opinion) who would be inclined to participate in an atrocity - just because everyone else is doing it.  This was a example of followers; not future Academy leaders- that is my core anger over this story, and I'm not even Army -



Oh, it was definitely genuine.  I'm sorry I wasn't clear, but if there was a dig or sarcasm implied in my post, well...it wasn't directed at the USMA.


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## Teufel (Sep 7, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> Both of these incidents are bad.  But do you know what is REALLY going to affect alumni support?  The things that they REALLY care about?  The football team... which lost to f'ing Fordham last night.  THAT is what the Supe is going to have to answer for.



Fordham has a football team?


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## DA SWO (Sep 7, 2015)

Teufel said:


> Fordham has a football team?


Yes they do, Women's NCAA Div III football.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 7, 2015)

Teufel said:


> Fordham has a football team?


Exactly.  Fordham is the football team's "safe school," the same way Annapolis is for West Point when it comes to admissions.  Yet we couldn't even beat Fordham this year.  Does not bode well for the rest of the season.


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## Teufel (Sep 7, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> Exactly.  Fordham is the football team's "safe school," the same way Annapolis is for West Point when it comes to admissions.  Yet we couldn't even beat Fordham this year.  Does not bode well for the rest of the season.


http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/lowest-acceptance-rate

According to the US News, USNA admits 7.4% of applicants and USMA admits 9%. 

USMA could always try playing high school teams next season. All jokes aside, it is really sad.   Army has only had one winning season in the past 18 years.  Looks like they won't be bowl eligible this year and won't come to San Diego for the Poinsettia Bowl.  Again.


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 7, 2015)

Teufel said:


> http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/lowest-acceptance-rate
> 
> According to the US News, USNA admits 7.4% of applicants and USMA admits 9%.
> 
> USMA could always try playing high school teams next season. All jokes aside, it is really sad.   Army has only had one winning season in the past 18 years.  Looks like they won't be bowl eligible this year and won't come to San Diego for the Poinsettia Bowl.  Again.



FWIW, I played against the USMA 150# football team when I was in highschool. We lived due west of West Point on what was then NY Rte 17, perhaps a 90 minute drive. We did not beat them, but did manage a TD, extra point and a field goal. They had three TD's, and they were pretty good guys to talk with after the game.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 7, 2015)

Teufel said:


> http://colleges.usnews.rankingsandreviews.com/best-colleges/rankings/lowest-acceptance-rate
> 
> According to the US News, USNA admits 7.4% of applicants and USMA admits 9%.
> 
> USMA could always try playing high school teams next season. All jokes aside, it is really sad.   Army has only had one winning season in the past 18 years.  Looks like they won't be bowl eligible this year and won't come to San Diego for the Poinsettia Bowl.  Again.



Yeah, like I said, safe school.

I never really cared about football... I do care what we're sacrificing to try to make a winning team


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## reed11b (Sep 7, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I think we can lay off of the Marine jokes for a bit now -
> 
> My god, really?


I know right? At the Marine Service Academy... Oh wait, nevermind. :-"
Reed


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## AWP (Sep 7, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> I do care what we're sacrificing to try to make a winning team



Have you tried children using an elaborate ceremony?


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## Teufel (Sep 8, 2015)

reed11b said:


> I know right? At the Marine Service Academy... Oh wait, nevermind. :-"
> Reed



The Marine Corps' service academy is the Naval Academy.  

@Marauder06 what are you guys sacrificing to make a winning team?  I know Navy's football program is paid for by alumni and ticket revenue.  Actually I think the football and basketball programs pay for the rest of the sports at the academy.  A good coach makes all the difference. Ken Niumatalolo turned Navy's program around in 2007.

In other news, did you guys hear that Westpoint football is dropping the "Black knights" and is going by "cadets" now?  Supposedly it has something to do with a rebrand deal going on with Nike.  Army has been the Black Knights at least since I was a midshipman in 99.  I don't think they should change it.


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## AWP (Sep 8, 2015)

Teufel said:


> In other news, did you guys hear that Westpoint football is dropping the "Black knights" and is going by "cadets" now?  Supposedly it has something to do with a rebrand deal going on with Nike.  Army has been the Black Knights at least since I was a midshipman in 99.  I don't think they should change it.



I don't know if it is related or not, but UCF is known as the Knights with a black knight for their logo and they have a deal with Nike for clothing. Maybe that's a coincidence, I don't know.


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 8, 2015)

West Point's football team was known as the Black Knights as far back as the early to mid '60s. Our highschool team had the same name during press coverage. Our fron four defensive linemen waere knowh as the Hungarian Headhunters.


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## Brill (Sep 8, 2015)

Teufel said:


> The Marine Corps' service academy is the Naval Academy.
> 
> @Marauder06 what are you guys sacrificing to make a winning team?  I know Navy's football program is paid for by alumni and ticket revenue.  Actually I think the football and basketball programs pay for the rest of the sports at the academy.  A good coach makes all the difference. Ken Niumatalolo turned Navy's program around in 2007.
> 
> In other news, did you guys hear that Westpoint football is dropping the "Black knights" and is going by "cadets" now?  Supposedly it has something to do with a rebrand deal going on with Nike.  Army has been the Black Knights at least since I was a midshipman in 99.  I don't think they should change it.



#blackknightsmatter


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## Marauder06 (Sep 8, 2015)

Teufel said:


> The Marine Corps' service academy is the Naval Academy.
> 
> @Marauder06 what are you guys sacrificing to make a winning team?  I know Navy's football program is paid for by alumni and ticket revenue.  Actually I think the football and basketball programs pay for the rest of the sports at the academy.  A good coach makes all the difference. Ken Niumatalolo turned Navy's program around in 2007.
> 
> In other news, did you guys hear that Westpoint football is dropping the "Black knights" and is going by "cadets" now?  Supposedly it has something to do with a rebrand deal going on with Nike.  Army has been the Black Knights at least since I was a midshipman in 99.  I don't think they should change it.



Some people, especially grads (which I'm not) will tell you that admission standards, retention, and morale are all taking a hit in order to boost the football team's chances.  USMA stresses "a culture of winning," but the element annointed to represent that ethos, the football team, has a 13+ year losing streak.

I've heard that USMA was going to "cadets," but the rebranding already occurred and as far as I know the mule and black knight are still in place.  The only change so far has been the emblem and "Army West Point."  While it wouldn't surprise me that there is some deal in the works to make further changes, I don't know of one.


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## racing_kitty (Sep 8, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> USMA stresses "a culture of winning," but the element annointed to represent that ethos, the football team, has a 13+ year losing streak.



Considering the way Army senior leaders have taken to fighting wars and leading their troops as of late, I can't say that it isn't a good fit.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 8, 2015)

This is what the Superintendent had to say:


Ladies and Gentlemen:

You may have heard about an incident reported in the media Saturday involving a pillow fight 
by the members of the Class of 2019.  Here is an update and some clarifying facts.

On August 20, 2015, many members of the plebe class participated in a pillow fight in order to 
build espirit de corps among their class, especially following their tough first summer. Previous 
plebe classes have done similar events over the years.

Unfortunately cadets were injured, with 30 cadets evaluated by medical personnel.  Specifically, 
24 cadets were diagnosed with concussions, none of them severe.  Other injuries sustained 
included a broken nose, a dislocated shoulder, and a hairline fracture of a cheekbone for one of 
the concussed cadets.  Medical personnel evaluated and released four other cadets with no 
injuries.   No cadets left the Academy because of their injuries.  All cadets have been returned 
to duty.

While these spirit events do occur, we never condone any activity that results in intentional 
harm to a teammate.  Although the vast majority of the class appears to have maintained the 
spirit of the event; it is apparent that a few did not. A military police investigation that began 
the night of the incident is ongoing. I assure you that the chain of command will take 
appropriate action when the investigation is complete.

We have accountability of every cadet identified with injuries.  Medical personnel have 
conducted comprehensive follow-up with the injured cadets, including following established 
evidence-based concussion care protocols.   In addition, the chain of command and medical 
professionals will continue follow-up with these cadets to address any negative impact on their 
performance or experience as a cadet.

As Superintendent, I take full responsibility for all actions that occur here at West Point to 
include the event on August 20, 2015.  We remain committed to the development of leaders of 
character.  We will continue our investigation, ensure accountability, and reinforce with the 
Corps that we must all take care of our teammates.

Robert L. Caslen, Jr.
LTG, US Army
Superintendent


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## Blizzard (Sep 8, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I read this thread and think of:
> 
> 
> 
> , just not as personal.


This came to mind for me:


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## Marauder06 (Sep 9, 2015)

Here's "what REALLY happened at the pillow fight."  Kind of.  Not really a lot of detail here.


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## Teufel (Sep 9, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> Some people, especially grads (which I'm not) will tell you that admission standards, retention, and morale are all taking a hit in order to boost the football team's chances.  USMA stresses "a culture of winning," but the element annointed to represent that ethos, the football team, has a 13+ year losing streak.
> 
> I've heard that USMA was going to "cadets," but the rebranding already occurred and as far as I know the mule and black knight are still in place.  The only change so far has been the emblem and "Army West Point."  While it wouldn't surprise me that there is some deal in the works to make further changes, I don't know of one.



Wasn't there a recruiting "scandal" last year?  All the service academies compete for the same pool of talent i.e. football players who are willing to join the military after school.  Air Force has built a nice little niche for themselves in the Mountain West Conference since 1999 and does pretty well considering the players have to juggle sports and academics and maintain some semblance of height and weight standards.  The same could be said for Navy since around 2001 when Paul Johnson took over and especially since Ken Niumatalolo picked up the head coaching job in 2007.  I couldn't imagine how Army's coach entices recruits to play for Army over Navy or Air Force unless they have a family connection to the service.  No one wants to play for a losing team.

Honestly Army should stop playing in the NCAA Div I FBS and bump down to the FCS and play on the patriot league.   Fordham is an FCS school and they just beat Army.  Why dump tons of money into the Army football program to try to turn it around?  It would take a miracle.  You need a phenomenal coach to do that but a service school can't afford to pay Nick Saban sized salaries.  Alumni want a winning team, you can give them one in the FCS.  

All that being said, Army won't move because Navy and Air Force are staying in the FBS and service rivalries won't permit them to go into a "lesser" football subdivision.


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 9, 2015)

I've spent a few nights at Naval facilities, and USMA is not the only place were pillow fights erupt. It happened a floor below us, but there was plenty going on for few minutes. The section got slammed pretty good by the watch officers. The guy that took most of the heat was the unlucky sailor on fire watch. He got nailed for not stopping it, as if he had a prayer of doing so, and for not reporting it at the time. My guess, is that nothing would have ever been said if we, a USAF IG Team there to RON, had not been there.


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## ThunderHorse (Sep 9, 2015)

Etype said:


> Sounds like someone really, really, really wanted to go to West Point...


Um, no.  If anything I wish I went to SDSU so I could have partied, surfed and banged chicks...couldn't really do those things at either place.  And the only thing West Point has over VMI is the stupid amount of resources they waste.

The we accept only ten percent of our applicant pop is innacurate, selective still, but more like 20% of serious applications.  VMI admits close to 40% now, but it is also in a smaller niche than an academy.  I have many great West Point mentors, but not many good peers.  And uh, letting off steam is not what you do at this point, but if you want to do that, ok, do what thou will.

But seriously, a pillow fight to build esprit de corps...didn't you guys used to do it the old way like via wholesale breakdown?


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## policemedic (Sep 10, 2015)

ThunderHorse said:


> Um, no.  If anything I wish I went to SDSU so I could have partied, surfed and banged chicks...couldn't really do those things at either place.  And the only thing West Point has over VMI is the stupid amount of resources they waste.
> 
> The we accept only ten percent of our applicant pop is innacurate, selective still, but more like 20% of serious applications.  VMI admits close to 40% now, but it is also in a smaller niche than an academy.  I have many great West Point mentors, but not many good peers.  And uh, letting off steam is not what you do at this point, but if you want to do that, ok, do what thou will.
> 
> But seriously, a pillow fight to build esprit de corps...didn't you guys used to do it the old way like via wholesale breakdown?



Well, you're a graduate of a school ranked 82nd in the nation for liberal arts colleges, so you're a bit biased.  You're also wrong.  For the record, I'll state the obvious.  My undergraduate degrees came from neither VMI nor USMA, so I have no skin in this game other than being a proponent of accurate statements.

With that said...

West Point is superior to VMI in virtually every quantifiable measure save one.  According to US News VMI has about a $100 million more in its endowment fund than USMA does.  But then, USMA's funding stream is a bit different so the practical effect of that endowment imbalance is probably nil.  However, in the areas that matter--things like graduation rate, class size, national ranking--USMA is head and shoulders above VMI from an objective point of view.  

Your statement that the 10% acceptance rate at USMA is inaccurate is wrong, at least according to virtually every credible source that tracks these numbers.  Assuming _arguendo_ that your 20% number is right then that still means USMA is more than twice as selective as VMI. That very likely contributes to the fact that USMA's graduation rate is some 30% higher than VMI.

West Point does have that pesky football problem though....


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## Teufel (Sep 10, 2015)

VMI, the Citadel, Norwich, West Point and the other service academies are all good schools.  You can't measure intangibles and I don't really care where US News ranks military schools.  Good officers have come from all the aforementioned universities and that should suffice.  I'm a Naval Academy graduate but I can recognize the strong culture, pride and quality inherent in all the military schools.


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 10, 2015)

Teufel said:


> VMI, the Citadel, Norwich, West Point and the other service academies are all good schools.  You can't measure intangibles and I don't really care where US News ranks military schools.  Good officers have come from all the aforementioned universities and that should suffice.  I'm a Naval Academy graduate but I can recognize the strong culture, pride and quality inherent in all the military schools.



Concur. Lets call a halt to Academy bashing.


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## The Accountant (Sep 10, 2015)

This makes me recall a story I was told while I was on a student-athlete recruiting trip at West Point (about a decade ago now). Supposedly a handful of years prior to my trip there was a professor that after a flight somehwere, subsequently lost all of the written papers he was to grade for his class. His solution was to make up grades for each student to receive for the paper since he couldn't actually read them. I believe he was removed from the faculty. 

With all these stories aside. I still wish I could go back in time to convince 15 year old me to have made the decision to attend West Point or any other of the aforementioned schools.


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