# What would you take ??



## 8'Duece (Nov 9, 2010)

Ok fuck it !  

If any of us here where to be called out, right now, today, tonight at this very moment and we had to take a 9mm Luger or .40 Smith or .45 ACP handgun into harms way what pistol would you take ?? 

Remember, you are going to fight, your going to use that pistol, you need 100% reliability, and it's non negotiable.  

What do you have in your possesssion and what would you choose ?  Is it going to handle the challenges of our Brothers in harms way ? 

Mine is:

Glock 21SF  .45 ACP 
Mag Cap: 13 + 1 


HANDS DOWN THE MOST RELIABLE PISTOL I OWN !!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 9, 2010)

Glock 22 in .40S&W
Mag Cap: 15 + 1


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## Ranger Psych (Nov 9, 2010)

my HK .45 tactical, there is no other choice.


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## Headshot (Nov 9, 2010)

I have to suggest that you pair the weapon selection with proper ammo; brand, type, cal. etc.

I like my XD40 for the beating it will take, but as you know I ran some obviously bad ammo through it that was touted by many as the bomb.  What did I get you might ask, a squib which put a mild split the barrel.  That said, the weapon held up superb with the squib and only needs barrel replacement.  

I'm a long barrel warrior and am a bit limited compared to most on here as to the handguns.  I would also have a bolo machete or hatchet in reach for those up close encounters that require a little less complex motor skills in a life or death fight.

2 minimum on backup HC mags.  After that, I've done closed the distance and my opponent better still have more than a few rounds left, or a chopping we will go.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 9, 2010)

Headshot said:


> I ran some obviously bad ammo through it that was touted by many as the bomb. What did I get you might ask, a squib which put a mild split the barrel.



What ammo was that?


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## Headshot (Nov 9, 2010)

Speer LE Gold Dot NIB


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## 8'Duece (Nov 9, 2010)

Let's just pretend that ammunition would be issued accordingly. 

Ball ammo, standard Mil Spec pressures/SAAMI 

Mine:

Glock 21SF .45 ACP

13+1 Cap.


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## Muppet (Nov 9, 2010)

Duece. I am turned on!

F.M.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 9, 2010)

Headshot said:


> Speer LE Gold Dot NIB


 
Interesting, did you contact Speer? I would like to find out more about it, most of the LEA's around here run Gold Dot. If you find something out (defect or whatever) pass it on, I would like to have that info to pass out in classes. 

I stopped using Gold Dot when I saw that power point on the shooting where some dirt bag took a shit load of .40S&W Gold Dot 180gr and they only penetrated 1 inch into the bad guy’s body. It took several .223 rounds to slow him down and they still fought to get hooks on him, and the only drug they found in him was a small amount of THC.

I am running Federal Hydro Shock now, but FMJ is better for punching through barricades (wind shields/car doors ect). 

As for running mil-spec ammo I would say Glock 17-22, if I was going to be making long movements (long term carry) or having to engage multiple bad guys I would opt with the G17 for mag capacity and recoil management for follow up shots/multiple threats. I have gotten away from 45 ACP due to recoil control and cost, I find that I am more accurate with multiple targets & movers with 9mm. I also put shot placement over caliber size, so I tend to lean towards the lighter recoil rounds.


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## 8'Duece (Nov 9, 2010)

Firemedic said:


> Duece. I am turned on!
> 
> F.M.



Squirt it the other way, I'm not your type 

I don't wanna hve to clean, wipe, swipe or baby this gun.  I wanna load to full cap and be able to reload without having to be a former DELTA operator. You get my drift ? 

Glock 17 would be a great choice, but I only own the Glock 21 and 22 right now.  So my choice is....................................G21


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## policemedic (Nov 10, 2010)

Funny you should ask. I've got two guns on the bench for maintenance now- a HK45 and a Wilson CQB/rail 1911. I'd be comfortable with either, but the 1911 wins since I'm wearing a holster for it now. It's been reliable through 1000+ round days in all kinds of conditions, and I'd grab the small squeeze bottle of freshly made bug juice to ensure it ran smoothly.


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## Burr (Nov 10, 2010)

I always have a little 22 with me, that's all I need and you'll never know I was there.


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## Manolito (Nov 10, 2010)

Deuce do you have access to a morbitiy chart on calibers?
I live in Kommifornia so no large capacity mags. I would take my Sig P239 in .40. 
Bill


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## 0699 (Nov 10, 2010)

My Glock 17.  Because that's the gun I shoot the best.  IMO the most important factor is shot placement...


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## x SF med (Nov 10, 2010)

The one I have, is the one I'd use... Xd9 3 mags of 16


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## sfmike (Nov 10, 2010)

I would carry a 1911A1 .45 Colt semi-automatic.  It has almost a hundred years of "prooven" stopping power.  The 9mm doesn't have reliable knock down power and the .40 ciliber was a compromise between the .45 and the 9mm.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 10, 2010)

I have one of each in the house right now, if it was "Zombie Apocalypse" or something I'd probably take the 9mm because it will probably be easier to find ammo... that said, the "nicest" gun I have is my Kimber .45 ... but everything else being equal (and short of Zombification :) ) I'd probably take my Glock .40, I have lots of mags and bullets for it, it fits my hand the best and it holds 13+ rounds.


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## 8'Duece (Nov 10, 2010)

Manolito said:


> Deuce do you have access to a morbitiy chart on calibers?
> I live in Kommifornia so no large capacity mags. I would take my Sig P239 in .40.
> Bill



Bill, 

I used to have several articles on that subject matter.  Some where from docs in the ER's and others where ballistic tests. 

I'll have to find them online again.


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## Headshot (Nov 10, 2010)

sfmike said:


> I would carry a 1911A1 .45 Colt semi-automatic.



Just keep it away from Deuce.


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## 0699 (Nov 10, 2010)

Headshot said:


> Just keep it away from Deuce.


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## parallel (Nov 10, 2010)

I have had my West German Sig Sauer P226 (9mm) for so long (summer 1992) that I just know how it's supposed to feel when it's on target. Add to that it's impeccable record of ZERO failures in all of this time and about 10,000 rounds and that is the one I'd bet my life upon.


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## 8'Duece (Nov 10, 2010)

Headshot said:


> Just keep it away from Deuce.



As long as Midway USA is still around your still good to go.


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## 8'Duece (Nov 11, 2010)

Ok, let's add in a 5.56 rifle platform to this scenario.  Or, if you prefer, a 7.62 platform. 

What do you have ?  How many mags ? What type of chest rig or Plate Carrier kit ?

You need a minimum of at least a reliable AR15 platform, or Mini 14, AR10, M1A/M14 etc.   

5 mags, preferably 10 that are reliable.  sling, pistol holster, eye pro, ear pro etc. 

Chest kit to include mag pouches, radio pouch, pistol mag pouches etc.  Let's just pretend that I have enough radios and LASH systems (bone mics) for a platoon. 

What do you have if I called upon you to fight with me tonight ???


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 11, 2010)

I have several AR platforms (mostly NM comp rifles), for Zombies I have a Rock river SDMR topped with a M223 Nikon that I built for mid range, Remy PSS (stock) topped with Nikon Tactical for long range and my M-forgery room-broom.

Room-broom is a DEL-TON lower, with a mil-spec trigger I worked into a smooth 4lbs pull with no creep. Basic controls with MIAD pistol grip and EMOD stock on a mil-spec buffer tube, mil-spec buffer spring with H2 buffer. Upper is a CMT mil-spec & BCG-charging handle, Wilson combat 1:7 twist 16 inch barrel with mil-spec bird cage compensator. KAC-RAS (M4), mil-spec front sight assembly and gas tube, MAGPUL angle grip and M3 tac light and EoTech 511 and MAGPUL BUIS. 

I run 10 MAGPUL 30rd magazines half loaded with XM193 and the other half loaded with M855, I also have 2x30rd mags loaded with AP and 4x20rd mags loaded with MK262 (they sit in a bug out bag).

I run a Eagle Plate Carrier with DB Tactical AR15 3x2 mag pouches, Army issue IFAK, Admin/light pouch, 2 smoke/FB pouches on the side and 3 on the back. I also run a BH Tactical MOLLE belt with Safariland 6004 (hip mounted) holster, Tactical Tailor 3 pistol mag pouch with mag retention devices, 5.11 2 mag single pouch with bungee retention, BH Tactical large dump pouch & handcuff case, gerber tool and K-BAR in kydex sheath.

Water is water bottles tossed into a cargo pocket (fuckin hate camelbacks).

I use a android smart phone for comms, GPS, laser range finder, picture/video and data book.


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## SandFrog (Nov 11, 2010)

SIG 226


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## Seajack (Nov 14, 2010)

As for the pistol, a USP LEM in .40 would be what I want.  And I'd prefer a G3/HK91 platform for a rifle.


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## CBTech (Nov 14, 2010)

226 or 228.


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## AWP (Nov 14, 2010)

If I had to chose one I'd say some type of Glock (I'm not terribly picky), HOWEVER at the risk of taking the "easy" way out I'd say whatever fits your hand the best and you are comfortable with. That said, I'd have no issues betting my life on others manufacturers like SIG, H&K, S&W's M&P series, certain 1911's, and probably one or two others I can't think of at the moment.


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## ÉIREGOBRÁCH1922 (Nov 16, 2010)

SiG 226 or Glock 19.


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## 8'Duece (Nov 16, 2010)

Seajack said:


> As for the pistol, a USP LEM in .40 would be what I want. And I'd prefer a G3/HK91 platform for a rifle.



Have you shot the "LEM" trigger on an H&K pistol ? They are complete crap in my opinion. Way to much creep before your ever close to hitting the set point/reset point.

I traded my P2000 LEM .40 Smith towards another pistol it was so bad.

YMMV


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## Ranger Psych (Nov 16, 2010)

I like my LEM on my tactical.


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## HOLLiS (Nov 16, 2010)

Choices,   future availability of ammo could be a factor if the engagement was not of a short duration.
Like 8 duece,  A .45 Glock would be good,  or a 10 MM glock, or H&K tactical in .45.  Even a Sig in .45.

Or I would stand in front of my safe trying to make a choice, by the time that I did make a choice the conflict would be over.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 16, 2010)

8'Duece said:


> Have you shot the "LEM" trigger on an H&K pistol ? They are complete crap in my opinion. Way to much creep before your ever close to hitting the set point/reset point.
> 
> I traded my P2000 LEM .40 Smith towards another pistol it was so bad.
> 
> YMMV



I hate HK triggers in the USP and Tactical, not sure if that's the same trigger your talking about. I also hate the hight of the bore axis of the HK's, causes too much flip in the recoil for me. I do however like the mag release on HK's, I would say that's about all I like on HK's...

SIG is about the same on bore axis and I hate the grip and trigger reset on Sig.

I am picky I guess.


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## Brooklynben (Nov 16, 2010)

I'm old school; absolutely 45. HK, Sig, Glock or Colt in that order.


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## 8'Duece (Nov 16, 2010)

Ranger Psych said:


> I like my LEM on my tactical.



Wasn't even aware they had a LEM option on their Tactical models. Hmmmm.


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## Seajack (Nov 16, 2010)

8'Duece said:


> Have you shot the "LEM" trigger on an H&K pistol ? They are complete crap in my opinion. Way to much creep before your ever close to hitting the set point/reset point.
> 
> I traded my P2000 LEM .40 Smith towards another pistol it was so bad.
> 
> YMMV




Yes, it was the first pistol I shot, and I haven't shot many others, so I'm a little biased. Since I don't have much experience with other pistols, I probably don't know what I'm missing. I've hated the Glock's that I have shot. All of which were owned by law enforcement officers, but I don't know if they had a particular "LEM" trigger.

The 1911's I've shot had hairpin triggers that I didn't like. They were Colt's and Kimbers.



I need to shoot pistols more.


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## Ranger Psych (Nov 17, 2010)

Everrrbody hatin on the HK. Das ok. I will simply refer to the fact that with HK, it doesn't matter which way you load the magazines. You simply slay bodies, all the time.

Anyways.

Personally I have owned: USP .40 SA/DA, USP .45 Tactical w/ SA/DA, USP .45 Expert SA/DA+SAO, USP .45 Tactical w/LEM.

There are 2 LEM trigger types, the only real difference is pull weight.  The Tactical and Expert will have lower pull weights than normal USP's because they're intended for a more... precision approach to application than a normal duty weapon. Still just as tough as a normal HK.

The only failure I have ever seen with a HK was a douchebag on a forum who had the audacity to tell HK that his compressed, overcharged handload, shouldn't have blown his pistol up.  Nevermind the method that the pistol failed, although you could consider it catastrophic because the pistol did break... he was not injured and the only thing that happened is the frame broke into 2 pieces. The slide and barrel contained the majority of the round being fired and did not turn into a pipe bomb... which is saying something.

For long guns in-line with the whole concept, the wife would grab the shotty and I'd grab the AR.  Depending, we might switch off since I've done more training with the shotgun on reloading as well as slug select, and the AR is pretty much kids play...  i'd end up strapping my 7 mag to my back with complete confidence in the 700 sendero action... it fires only when it is instructed to via a hard wish of bad things to what my reticle is currently residing upon.


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## Ranger Psych (Nov 17, 2010)

Seajack said:


> Yes, it was the first pistol I shot, and I haven't shot many others, so I'm a little biased. Since I don't have much experience with other pistols, I probably don't know what I'm missing. I've hated the Glock's that I have shot. All of which were owned by law enforcement officers, but I don't know if they had a particular "LEM" trigger.



The "Law Enforcement Module" is a replacement firing mechanism for the HK pistol that changes it from a standard Single/double or double/single action (depending on your choice of carry) to a modified single action. The hammer's cocked when you chamber a round, but there is a disconnect between the hammer and the hammer spring. There is no external safety, the safety is the trigger just like on a glock. If the trigger is not manipulated, the connecting bar from the trigger to the firing mechanism will not actuate the firing pin block. That firing pin block is spring loaded and always in position on all the USP pistols unless the trigger is manipulated.  The advantage of the LEM is that like with a Glock "safe trigger" or whatever they call it, you have a repeatable, consistant trigger every time you pull the trigger. There is very little if any discernible difference between your initial trigger pull from the draw, and the trigger pull from firing... ie, you fire, release to trigger reset, and fire again... and you aren't going to have much if any difference.  However, unlike a glock, a LEM trigger module is capable of double-action firing if necessary due to whatever reason.  Having the double action is nice if you're doing reloading with new primers that you haven't tested before... if it takes double hammer strikes for say 2-3 out of a pack of primers, you know you should just shoot what you loaded, and either A: mark the rounds you load with that batch of primers as training ammo only, or B: just toss those primers and shoot what you have left from that reloading batch.

Basically, you give up an external safety and decock capability for having less to have to manipulate. It is something you can buy for any USP model, but I don't know if they do the same for the new P2000 or whatever the hell HK is selling these days.  USP's are a big pistol, larger than comfortable for most people.. but like it says under my name, I'm not nicknamed sasquatch by some on here just because of my looks, I'm one big mofugger and the doublestack .45 fits my hands just fine.  Never mind that I can conceal it with day to day clothing without any issues, and even in the lighter clothing required to survive summer in the south I still had no issues with concealment.

Of course, there's the anomaly of my wife who is 5'5" and who actually prefer's my expert to her compact due to the expert's trigger vs her compact's trigger.  She has no issues with manipulating anything on either of those pistols, nor any issues with firing accuracy or speed of follow up shots.

I haven't bothered with an actual round count for my Expert, but just going off of how much we'd reload and shoot 4 days a week back at Ft. Benning between myself and the wife, I have put at least 60,000 rounds through it and it is still going completely strong. I would call up the wife during lunch at work, and have her crank out a thousand or so rounds and we'd shoot them all between the two of us when I was released for the day. Daytime, Nighttime, Summertime, Wintertime. Four days a week. Every week. Usually I would end up burning more of the rounds since the missus would get bored or would start coming up with new scenarios for me to shoot.

Now, I'm restricted due to finances to doing dryfire only for any sort of training. My concession to that is every time I get up and put my pistol on I do 50 draws and dry-fire engagements with whatever I'm wearing to go out and about just because... so I do what I can. I'm not willing to dip into my oh-shit reserve to continue to train with live fire.

The most major reason I prefer the LEM is pretty simple. Glocks are not comfortable with their grip angle, and in general I just don't like them. The LEM brings the "Glock Safe action" effectively to a weapons platform I prefer, have trained on, am comfortable with, and above all (as mentioned above), have a slight bit of proficiency with.

The USP .40 pistol I first bought was a nice pistol and at that point I had no specific brand orientation... if I had the money, I would buy some FN P.45 Tactical's because they fit even better than the USP, and have a higher round capacity capability in the .45 caliber.  Price with HK's is a huge deal, considering that a new Tactical or Expert is going to buy you 2 or 3 other pistols.


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## AWP (Nov 17, 2010)

Great post, RP.


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## Seajack (Nov 17, 2010)

_USP's a_r_e a big pistol, larger than comfortable for most people.. but  like it says under my name, I'm not nicknamed sasquatch by some on here  just because of my looks, I'm one big mofugger and the doublestack .45  fits my hands just fine._

I should of noted that I like it in a compact. The USP is definitely a larger pistol, that compact fits well in my hands though. I'm 16, so while the compact is still larger than most other compact handguns, the grip is comfortable for me. _
_


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## Etype (Nov 24, 2010)

I hate to say it, but the pistol caliber argument boils down to sub vs supersonic. .45 isn't doing much more than a 9mm except creating a .07" larger hole. I'd argue a .45 is also a big drawback because of capacity. The arm-chair scientist in me argues that 9mm 115 gr +P+ is one of the best man killer rounds available. Of course, 10mm 150 gr would be a more devastating single round, but your follow up shots will slow down and you'll be sacrificing capacity- when it comes down to your pistol, the numbers game may be important. If you want to get wild with calibers, .357 Sig in 115 gr is a pretty nasty setup- as you can see, i prefer velocity.

Hydrostatic shock is the name of the game, if you ask me. Faster is almost always better, look at the performance people are getting out of the .243 Win. Devastating termal effects.

But anyway, for my pick. Glock 34 with 115 gr +P+.


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## coastieaet (Apr 10, 2011)

S&W MP .40.  15+1=a lot of lead.  Low maintenance and always shoots a nice group for me...


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