# RSTA CAV UNIT's?



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 8, 2008)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSTA

I have been reading up on the RSTA unit’s, the concepts and mission statement. Seems to be a pretty Hi Speed type unit by the way it reads. I was just wondering if anyone has had any experience with these new RSTA units? Are they actually committing an Infantry troop to a scout/ sniper mission? Are they really fulfilling the roles of preparations for Air assault and water borne ops? Are they receiving any special training in targeting operations? Are they using TACP’s to fill their targeting roles?

I was just wondering how the concept was playing out, or if it was another ploy to suck more money into a BCT?


Is there any other better links with info in regards to RSTA units?


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## Zeus187 (Jun 10, 2008)

Rsta units are a bunch of bull

My battalion was converted into a RSTA, when they first started. Its intent is to combine a bunch of resources and support into 1 battalion. There is really only 1 company of real 11b scouts out of the whole unit. The rest of it is full of POGs and more POGs that think their also scouts. And no this unit is not used properly for scout purposes or any type of recon mission. The RSTA units have aslo caused Division LRRSD to be disbanded, because now every brigade can do their own recon to get intell.


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## AWP (Jun 10, 2008)

I think that Wikipedia article is a little biased and oversells the RSTA concept. Just the way it reads sounds a little fishy.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 11, 2008)

Zeus187 said:
			
		

> My battalion was converted into a RSTA, when they first started. Its intent is to combine a bunch of resources and support into 1 battalion. There is really only 1 company of real 11b scouts out of the whole unit. The rest of it is full of POGs and more POGs that think their also scouts. And no this unit is not used properly for scout purposes or any type of recon mission. The RSTA units have aslo caused Division LRRSD to be disbanded, because now every brigade can do their own recon to get intell.



I heard about alot of LRS units being disbanded, but in talks with a few people in LRS units. They have all said they were not disbanded.... Just moved over to BfSB's... I figured the RSTA thing was a little off the wall, but I have no intel on them other then wha I have read....


Thanks for the respons guys...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 31, 2008)

https://www.benning.army.mil/rtb/new_lrsc/article2.htm

April 03, 2006

Recon ramp-up
Army aims to triple force skilled in ‘finding’ the enemy

By Gina Cavallaro
Army Times staff writer

FORT BENNING, Ga. — The Army school that trains soldiers to sneak around and locate the enemy now must push through enough troops to support the biggest expansion in its 20-year history.

The long-range surveillance community is racing to produce enough soldiers to man one-third of all ground maneuver battalions with reconnaissance soldiers.

To meet the projected need, recon instructors will have to nearly triple their current output of 400 troops a year.

Driving the growth is Army Transformation from division-centric operations to a lighter, more mobile force built around brigade combat teams. The Army has planned for 42 active BCTs to be stood up by 2007, each including a Reconnaissance, Surveillance and Target Acquisition squadron.

The RSTA teams are seen as vital in the fight against terrorists, guerrillas and other unconventional enemy forces.

“Reconnaissance, surveillance and target acquisition is a highly important task in any type of military operation, but that is particularly true when you’re conducting a counterintelligence campaign such as in Iraq or Afghanistan,” said Lt. Gen. David Petraeus, commanding general of the Combined Arms Center at Fort Leavenworth, Kan.

In its first 16 years here, roughly 180 soldiers a year went through the 33-day Long Range Surveillance course. Last year, the training cadre pushed through 275 soldiers; this year, the cadre will churn out 400 recon soldiers in eight classes of 50 students each.

By 2007, that number will double to 800, and it still won’t be enough to meet the Army’s projected need of 1,100 recon soldiers a year to man the new RSTA squadrons.

The soldiers are being trained here at the overhauled Reconnaissance and Surveillance Leaders Course. They are being schooled in much more than how to find the enemy. They now must master some of the Army’s most technologically advanced field surveillance equipment.

And, to meet a critical new role for the recon mission, they will operate with the capability and authority to directly engage and kill the enemy.

“These units are needed to conduct targeted operations, as opposed to sweep operations, which are more efficient in capturing and killing the enemy and less disruptive in neighborhoods,” Petraeus said. “The goal is great soldiers enabled by great technology. Downrange, commanders will use them in different ways.”

Col. K.K. Chinn, commander of the Ranger Training Brigade, whose Delta Company, 4th Ranger Battalion, is tasked with the training mission, echoed the need for recon troops who can locate and destroy enemy forces.

“If we can find the guy who’s making the [improvised explosive device] or recruiting suicide bombers, with the finishing force, we can kill that guy,” he said.

Keeping pace with combat

The traditional corps- and division-level long-range surveillance units are being redesigned and redistributed under the Army’s modular organization, and the maneuver brigades are seeing a substantial increase in their own reconnaissance assets.

Last year, the Army stood up eight RSTA squadrons and will stand up seven more this year.

The newly trained soldiers will operate sophisticated equipment usually reserved for special operations forces and be capable of working in small teams to find the enemy.

“This course bridges the gap between SOF and the regular Army,” said Maj. Eric Flesch, Delta Company commander.

“For the conventional Army, this is brand-new,” said Lt. Col. Jim Mingus, commander of 4th Ranger Battalion. “If it’s a valid military target, then you have the authority to strike or capture that target.”

Flesch said that when he took command of Delta Company, he realized the course had not kept up with real-life combat and recon scenarios.

“The course [used] radios that weren’t being used [in theater]. Because of the Rapid Fielding Initiative, the troops in combat had better radios and the course hadn’t caught up,” he said. “The classes were half-full because people were deployed, and equipment and techniques at the school were not matching real-world operations.”

Flesch, who worked in the Joint Special Operations Task Force in Afghanistan and Iraq before coming to Benning in June 2004, brought his real-world experience and restructured the RSLC program’s instruction. He switched out about half of the curriculum, adding some of the technological advances and tactics, techniques and procedures emerging from the battlefield.

Quick turnaround

One of the most significant new areas of training is in the use of digital surveillance systems to collect images and data that can be transmitted almost simultaneously for analysis hundreds or thousands of miles away.

Until now, LRS soldiers were observers who reported back to military intelligence battalions without engaging the enemy. Now, the capability and authority of RSTA soldiers to strike is similar to what the original Long Range Reconnaissance Patrol units had in Vietnam. What’s different is the quick turnaround time of the digital systems versus analog technology. The time to analyze field data significantly accelerated, shortening the time needed to process information and decide what action to take.

With the surveillance equipment, soldiers can digitally send detailed information down to a 10-degree grid coordinate. They also can send pictures of entry points, people, buildings and descriptions of the security environment or a neighborhood.

Learning flexibility

a former enlisted combat engineer, 1st Lt. Will Parker, 32, is an infantry officer who went through the course here in January.

He is slated to go to Iraq in August for the first time, with the 121st Infantry Regiment Airborne (LRS) of the Georgia National Guard. He feels the RSLC has given him a huge advantage.

“We may be tasked with watching a house for five days and then we’d get an order to clear that house,” he said. “The phrase ‘be flexible’ goes to a whole new level.”

RSLC is the only Army school that trains with imagery collection and transmission.

“The training focuses on imagery, mobility and target interdiction,” said Flesch, who is writing new doctrine for recon units. That doctrine will include new assets on the six-man teams — the traditional recon unit — including snipers and marksmen who can strike targets on the spot.

Recon students also are learning to call for fire in a joint environment, insertion and extraction techniques, post-combat assessment and other tasks that reflect real-time operations.

Students learn to identify 140 different types of vehicles, weapons and equipment. They are trained to operate the latest high-frequency communications equipment, including multiband systems compatible with Air Force gear.

It is an intensely brain-draining and physically demanding course that incorporates the sorts of tasks a recon soldier can expect to follow, such as creating a good hide site, the art of camouflage and how to identify the enemy by sight, smell and language.

The students also get used to humping a 100-pound ruck, and practice land navigation in the woods — and even sometimes outside the post’s gates in downtown Columbus.

“The course applies to anywhere the Army goes,” Flesch said, indicating that although Iraq and Afghanistan are in the operational spotlight, RSLC students learn skills they can take to any environment.

“We’ve kept the focus broad so you spend days in the woods, but you also spend days in an urban environment,” he said.

The cadre is a rich mix of former LRS and special operations soldiers, many with deep experience in several countries.

One of those is Sgt. 1st Class Earl Owens, a veteran recon guy who went through the LRS course in 1993 and has operated in South America, Southeast Asia, the Philippines and Singapore.

“The changes between then and now are outstanding. I used to sit in a hole and I had a hand-crank generator,” he said. “We’re sitting out there now lasing with digital. If we had had this communications technology, there would have been more people in the hurt locker.”

By 2007, Flesch said, the cadre will double in size to more than 60 instructors, and the schoolhouse will add 14 new buildings, all at a cost of $9 million.

Although most students are infantry troops with Ranger tabs or SF backgrounds, those requirements can be waived for the right candidate.

“It doesn’t matter what your [military occupational specialty] is,” said Command Sgt. Maj. Matt Walker, the Ranger Training Brigade command sergeant major.

“Recon is recon and a commander is going to use the recon guy he’s got.”


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## hidesite (Aug 24, 2008)

Zeus187 said:


> Rsta units are a bunch of bull
> 
> The RSTA units have aslo caused Division LRRSD to be disbanded, because now every brigade can do their own recon to get intell.





Well, that's why all the LRS are coming back in the BfSBs... Any Infantry or Scout unit can perform area recon but long range surveillance operations are entire different world. There are no units under a RSTAs trained for it...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 26, 2008)

hidesite said:


> Well, that's why all the LRS are coming back in the BfSBs... Any Infantry or Scout unit can perform area recon but long range surveillance operations are entire different world. There are no units under a RSTAs trained for it...



Hey is it true, that they are going back to full company strength LRS? Vz. the Detachments?

I have been looking at the G-143 LRS in TX alot, thinking about giving them a call when I get back off this deployment!


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## Texas Own (Aug 27, 2008)

My son is 11C in a RSTA unit in Afghanistan. No word on how effective their ops are yet.
He's been there 3 weeks and has 12 confirmed. Busy work....


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## AWP (Aug 27, 2008)

Texas Own said:


> My son is 11C in a RSTA unit in Afghanistan. No word on how effective their ops are yet.
> He's been there 3 weeks and has 12 confirmed. Busy work....



He's personally killed 12 men in 3 weeks? What about the rest of the unit?


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## pardus (Aug 27, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> Hey is it true, that they are going back to full company strength LRS? Vz. the Detachments?
> 
> I have been looking at the G-143 LRS in TX alot, thinking about giving them a call when I get back off this deployment!



My understanding is exactly that, company sized.

I don't think they takes homos though so you might be out of luck 



Texas Own said:


> My son is 11C in a RSTA unit in Afghanistan. No word on how effective their ops are yet.
> He's been there 3 weeks and has 12 confirmed. Busy work....





Freefalling said:


> He's personally killed 12 men in 3 weeks? What about the rest of the unit?



They're there to carry his ammo...


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## 0699 (Aug 28, 2008)

Freefalling said:


> He's personally killed 12 men in 3 weeks? What about the rest of the unit?



Seven with one blow? 

Yes, a Disney reference...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 28, 2008)

Texas Own said:


> My son is 11C in a RSTA unit in Afghanistan. No word on how effective their ops are yet.
> He's been there 3 weeks and has 12 confirmed. Busy work....



WOW!?! What RSTA unit is he in???:confused:




pardus762 said:


> My understanding is exactly that, company sized.
> 
> I don't think they takes homos though so you might be out of luck



It was my understanding that the Army was now okay with homo's!:uhh:  Dude will that mean I will have to put off my long time wanted sex change???:eek:


To be honest though, my goal is SFAS if I get approved for a clearance. If not I will try LRS until my ETS and then make the choice to hang it up or stay in...


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## jordan (Aug 30, 2008)

Texas Own said:


> My son is 11C in a RSTA unit in Afghanistan. No word on how effective their ops are yet.
> He's been there 3 weeks and has 12 confirmed. Busy work....



They could be hanging alot of 120 rounds.:uhh:


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## Rabidpanda216 (Oct 16, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> I heard about alot of LRS units being disbanded, but in talks with a few people in LRS units. They have all said they were not disbanded.... Just moved over to BfSB's... I figured the RSTA thing was a little off the wall, but I have no intel on them other then wha I have read....



My unit was the first BfSB to be created and the first to deploy. We were the guinea pigs. It's from us that every other BfSB was modeled around. 

But when we redeploy, we are transferring to the RSTA from the LRS company. So I'm not sure if your intel is correct on BfSB's getting LRS companies. And from what I hear, all the other BfSB's will continue to be modeled after ours. But I guess we'll see if that's correct or not...


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## Yard Sale (Nov 8, 2008)

I recently transferred to a RSTA from a LRSC due to many personal problems at home.  I sure do miss LRS.  I don't have anything good to say about my new home, so I guess I shouldn't say anything about it at all.  

But, I hope the issues at this RSTA are specific to this RSTA and not Army-wide.


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## LRS Guy (Nov 9, 2008)

For what its worth, G/143rd is comming back in Co. strength. I have talked to their commander several times.


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## GSXRanger (Nov 9, 2008)

Texas Own said:


> My son is 11C in a RSTA unit in Afghanistan. No word on how effective their ops are yet.
> He's been there 3 weeks and has 12 confirmed. Busy work....



:doh:

I got nothin'.


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## redneck (Nov 9, 2008)

Originally Posted by Texas Own  
My son is 11C in a RSTA unit in Afghanistan. No word on how effective their ops are yet.
He's been there 3 weeks and has 12 confirmed. Busy work....                                                                                                I'm with GSX;what can I say. I could say "unbelievable",but that goes without saying. Does he wear his Medal Of Honor much,or is he too humble?


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## Mac_NZ (Nov 9, 2008)

I'm a bit overawed by that wiki article.


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## digrar (Nov 10, 2008)

Mac_NZ said:


> I'm a bit overawed by that wiki article.



The buggers are bigger than the RAR and RNZIR put together.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 12, 2008)

LRS Guy said:


> For what its worth, G/143rd is comming back in Co. strength. I have talked to their commander several times.



Have you heard if they are keeping the G 143rd, or changing to a something else?


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## LRS Guy (Nov 12, 2008)

They are expanding from a LRSD (ie Detachment strength) to Company strength

If interested, pm me.


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## JAFO (Feb 5, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/RSTA
> 
> I was just wondering if anyone has had any experience with these new RSTA units? Are they actually committing an Infantry troop to a scout/ sniper mission? Are they really fulfilling the roles of preparations for Air assault and water borne ops? Are they receiving any special training in targeting operations? Are they using TACP’s to fill their targeting roles?



6-9 Cav in the 1CD 3BCT has the RSTA mission, and from what I saw while in A Trp both Iraq and garrison, I can add some insight.

The actual field units, who do patrols will be a platoon of Cav Scouts, squad of Mortars and a couple Fisters. We have three troop elements who have two combat platoons which go out the wire. Route clearance included EOD, we did a lot of that and maintained a patrol base when not on the FOB. 

Each troop rotated out of the patrol base every month, one was dedicated QRF which icluded DART missions if needed. We were ready for air assault, but never had to. While in Diyala at Normandy, we mostly focussed on SKTs due to the constant threat of IEDs. Humanitarian relief and presence patrols in the populated areas was another common mission.

As for all the high speed hooah jazz they are made out to be, we never really did the RSTA mission, we acted as grunts and just occupied the area. There were a couple of large missions clearing villages but nothing special. 

Feel free to ask about any thing further. I'm just a little sleepy and saw this before calling it a night.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 7, 2009)

JAFO said:


> 6-9 Cav in the 1CD 3BCT has the RSTA mission, and from what I saw while in A Trp both Iraq and garrison, I can add some insight.
> 
> The actual field units, who do patrols will be a platoon of Cav Scouts, squad of Mortars and a couple Fisters. We have three troop elements who have two combat platoons which go out the wire. Route clearance included EOD, we did a lot of that and maintained a patrol base when not on the FOB.
> 
> ...





No worries...

So I am guessing 6/9 has the same crest as 1/9?  Being the 9th Cav Reg:confused: Just wondering, I spent some time with 1/9 out of FOB head hunter working the Hifa A/O in 2004-2005


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## JAFO (Feb 14, 2009)

From what I've seen the 9th has the same crest, I can only attest for what I've seen within the Division though.


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## GSXRanger (Feb 15, 2009)

Ok all of you knuckle draggers... I just got assigned to a RSTA unit... on Camp Taji. 

If any of you are on Taji... shoot me a PM and I will let you know where my office is. Let's do a link up.

This is my first deployment with a conventional unit, so I will save my opinions on RSTA until I get some "Saddle" time... Cav. Meh.

Gary Owens?

LOL

SUA SPONTE!!!


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## car (Feb 15, 2009)

GSXRanger said:


> Ok all of you knuckle draggers... I just got assigned to a RSTA unit... on Camp Taji.
> 
> If any of you are on Taji... shoot me a PM and I will let you know where my office is. Let's do a link up.
> 
> ...



I think it's "Gary Owen" without the "s" but I'll defer to your "local knowledge." ;)

Taji isn't a bad place, depending upon which side of the base you find yourself......


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## GSXRanger (Feb 15, 2009)

Gary Owen / Gary Owens... meh.

Not to take anything away from their history... meant no disrespect. I mean to blend in as much as I can, but am NOT wearing one of those blue cowboy hats. No sirree... 

:)

I'm on the GI side of Taji... hell, they have a Green Beans here... I'm good!


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## car (Feb 15, 2009)

Yeah, if you put on those spurs and that hat......I'll shoot you, myself.

One of my former Drill Sergearnts sent me a pic of him taking repsponsbilty of a company wearing that hat......I told him that I loved his wife and children, but I would hate to make xxx a widow if I ever saw him wearing.......

On the other hand, I think it would would be cool to earn spurs and a Stetson.

I've got a story.........


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## GSXRanger (Feb 15, 2009)

car said:


> Yeah, if you put on those spurs and that hat......I'll shoot you, myself.
> 
> One of my former Drill Sergearnts sent me a pic of him taking repsponsbilty of a company wearing that hat......I told him that I loved his wife and children, but I would hate to make xxx a widow if I ever saw him wearing.......
> 
> ...



Well Sarn't Major... I am gonna bust my ARSE for these guys, and mentor my troops as much as I can. If the Cav decides to award me some combat spurs, I would be honored. However... I don't see any horses. Just some HUGE fucking Strykers!!

I get to take my cherry ride in one tomorrow... Yippie Kay-YAY!!!


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## car (Feb 15, 2009)

Well, then, ride, slowly, ride..... .......Good on ya! And Congrats! :)

Gary Owen!


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## figmo (Sep 6, 2010)

RSTA is a joke, ISR, and sensors taking the place of the real Cavalry or LRSU team, replacing eyes on target with some ISR platforms is one of the worst ideas in the long sad history of bad ideas. lets not forget it was the "HUMAN" recon teams that busted the mystery of the heatless Muj, not visable on termals, and not a UAV. ISR platforms have there place on the battle field but not in a hide site were the recon men sould always be. Sorry im a little bitter about this, why they want to get read of us and call RSTA "Cavalry" is beyond me.


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## FNULNU (Sep 6, 2010)

What I saw of this effort was a bunch of conventional Army kids using VERY expensive gear to play bootleg movies and porn on and spy on their buddies.  They had a ton of great kit and absolutely no idea how to use it.  Every time they sent some kid to get trained on it they'd move him to some other job shortly after he started figuring out what he was doing.  This led to most of the gear sitting around unused in boxes, or going missing, and several compromised ISR missions due to lack of training and experience.  That was a while back though, so hopefully they're improving.


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## pardus (Sep 6, 2010)

That is fucked up to a criminal degree IMO.


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## AWP (Sep 6, 2010)

Sensors are the way of the future. Soon we won't even need a man to gather intelligence.

Warm Regards,

ADM S. Turner


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## scout7 (Jan 15, 2011)

I was in 1-61 CAV the RSTA Squadron for 506 RCT at Campbell and my experience there was awesome. They converted all of the 3rd BN's on Campbell to RSTA's. Deployed with them to East Baghdad in 2005 to 2006. I couldn't ask the Army for better leadership. We were employed as a landowner though from New Baghdad all the way down to Salman Pak. Since then they have deployed to OEF twice. There are two mounted CAV Troops and one Dismounted CAV Troop. I speak for other members on this, but 1-61 is regarded as the best unit we have been in (both Scouts and Infantry). Much to the leadership of COL Winski who is the CDR of 4-1 CAV now. Easy on the POG calling Zues! You can tell that to the families of the dead! Take Care!


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## tdgunslinger (Sep 4, 2011)

I came from a RSTA unit, I was in a Dismounted Recon (Infantry) Troop, my old Squadron had 2 Cav Scout (Mounted Recon) Troops, 1 Infantry (Dismounted Recon) Troop and a Support Troop.

I came from a Sniper Section, my old troom had 2 11B platoons, a commo section, and a 11C (M224 60mm) platoon, of course the HQ section and Supply. All in all it was a lot of fun, PM me for details if you want.


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## tdgunslinger (Sep 4, 2011)

Oh yeah, we had Zodiacs, and the only time we used them is when we did Zodiac Carry PT. When I left, my Troop was about to get training in Amphibious operations with the Zodiacs, I don't know if they went through with it.


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## Kaz (Sep 6, 2011)

I'm currently in a RSTA Cav unit.


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## Spider6 (Feb 3, 2012)

Alcon, I have been in CAV and LRS. In fact that's me they quote in the article posted by JAO. There are 2 types of RSTAs. One is the conventional RSTA you find in the BDE. And the other is the R&S Squadron you see in the BFSBs. The BFSBs were formed a couple of years back out of the MI BDEs which are a Corps asset. For some reason the component for the BFSBs is the Armor Branch. Don't ask me why I don't know. I had the opportunity to attend several conferences at Fort Knox to discuss the doctrine and task/org for the R&S Squadron. Needless to say me and the other LRS personnel who attended asked why LRS was placed under a CAV Squadron.

Gentlemen if you don't know LRS has a nonconventional mission. Cavalry has a conventional mission. Long story short we were not given an answer. LRS bridges the gap between conventional forces and SOF. What is even more frustrating is they asked us and I quote "Does LRS need to be an independant company in the BFSB?" We all said yes for 3 reasons.

1) Its a modular BDE. The Corps Commander is going to treat you like a menu and order what he wants. Its very unlikely your squadron will stay together during a deployment. Indeed some LRS companies have been split up by platoons and even teams.
2) Training: Just performing a static line airborne operation takes a lot of time. Forget HALO and Scuba. So while I'm trying to keep my company current in all that we obviously can't support what the rest of the Squadron is doing. If the Squadron commander overrides training, which happens often, those insertion/extraction and recon skills start to rot.
3) OPSEC: Needs no explanation. I was the Operations Officer for the last deployment. Even I didn't know everything my guys were doing. PM me if you want to know what happened when the CAV made us do a CONOP when we had been passed some intel by ODA.

They are currently developing yet another MTOE for the R&S Squadron and the BFSB. We'll see what happens. The current proposal is that the CAV Troops will be increased in size and receive mortar sections. (Thank God) Right now the Troops are half the size of a LRS Platoon. Additionally the BFSB may have its name changed to Recon and Surveillance BDE.

Finally I'll make the same recommendation I made 4 years ago at Fort Know. Make the R&S Squadron a regular RSTA and LRS an independant company under the BFSB.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 3, 2012)

Spider6 said:


> ...
> 
> Gentlemen if you don't know LRS is an unconventional unit. ...
> 
> ...


 
Do you mean "unconventional" in a military doctrinal context, or in the context of the dictionary definition?


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## Spider6 (Feb 3, 2012)

Doctrinal:  I stand corrected however.  The old FM 7-93 described it like this "Essentially, the LRSU mission
is nonconventional while working in a conventional environment.."  Appendix A pg A-1

The new FM 3-55.93 describes them this way:  "LRSU are not SOF, although they share many of the same tactics, techniques, procedures, terms, equipment, and organizational structure."  pg 1-4


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## Marauder06 (Feb 3, 2012)

Spider6 said:


> Doctrinal: I stand corrected however. The old FM 7-93 described it like this "Essentially, the LRSU mission
> is nonconventional while working in a conventional environment.." Appendix A pg A-1
> 
> The new FM 3-55.93 describes them this way: "LRSU are not SOF, although they share many of the same tactics, techniques, procedures, terms, equipment, and organizational structure." pg 1-4


 
 Roger. According to joint doctrine, there are two types of units: conventional, and SOF:

Source: JP 1-02, *Dictionary of Military and Associated Terms*, JAN12 edition.




> conventional forces — 1. Those forces capable of conducting operations using nonnuclear
> weapons. 2. Those forces other than designated special operations forces. Also called
> CF. (JP 3-05)


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## Spider6 (Feb 3, 2012)

Corrections made to the original (rant) post.


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## dsumner (Feb 11, 2012)

As it stands now, big Army can't figure out what it wants RSTA squadrons to be. Becuase of the amout of firepower we pack, BDE commanders want to use them as a third maneuver element, even though we're not organized, or equipped for that (namely becuase we're to damned small), as some sort of mobile reserve, convoy security, pressense patrols, etc., instead of what they were supposedly designed for, a reconnaissance asset. Over the course of two sepearate tours in Iraq, I performed exactly two route recon missions. Both were to check out to possible new convoy routes, and that was it.

Then you have guys trying to treat the HMMWV mounted units, as though they were actual armored forces. I had one PL tell me I needed to reorganize my section, and turn my vehilces facing out, so that the "Front armor was facing out, as it was the heaviest" I had to point out to him that we we're in UNARMORED HMMWVs and we back into a hide site so that if we have to un ass the area quickly we could just drop our  camo nets, and drive straight out. He looked confused by the whole conversation. Then we have our Dismounted Recon Troop, that gets used for everything but actual ground recon work (PSD, security element for a SF or EOD, route security, route clearance, etc.).

The one good thing that's come out of the last few years, is that it looks like the Army has finally figured out we don't have enough bodies to do all of the tasks we're supposed to perfom, and has decided to add an dismount to each truck (as it is now a fully manned platoon only has 18 people, which includes and attached RTO and Medic).


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## Spider6 (Feb 11, 2012)

They are also discussing adding mortars to the CAV Troops in the R&S Squadrons. I have spoken with several Cavalry officers and they're less than thrilled with the RSTA concept. I asked one of my SGI's while at MCCC as to why if its not broke is the Army making all these changes. Its the same old answer money!

The lack of bodies has been brought up with the powers that be and as you pointed out looks like their starting to listen.


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## dsumner (Feb 11, 2012)

Another problem is with everyone being tasked to perform security missions, people aren't keeping up with basic skills, much less more specialized training. We sent guys off to sniper school, hired a contractor to train up our DRT guys in the use of their zodiacs, sent guys to rappel master, RSLC, etc. That's not counting all of the new sensors, radios, NODs, etc. they've given us, and (and it takes a while to learn how to use all of this stuff), only to spend the last four years doing everything but reconnaissance missions.


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## AWP (Feb 11, 2012)

I'm not being a dick (intentionally), but how much of the RSTA concept is taught at MCCC or OBC (or whatever OBC is called these days)? If leadership doesn't know how to use you, or have missions for you, then you'll suffer as you guys are pointing out. Today's ignorant Captain or Major is tomorrow's ignorant BN or BDE commander.

I'll go out on a limb and say you guys have tried like hell to make the CoC understand what you do and what you can do for them and they aren't terribly responsive?

I see it in Comm almost every day: guys doing a mission or working on equipment that is briefly mentioned in an officer's educational pipeline. Said pipeline may be network and IT heavy, said officer's background is IT and networks, and then suddenly the poor bastard has to deal with radio and radar...uh oh, Spaghetti-ohs.

I'd love to give you some hope, I really would, but for me it is a losing battle. Unless Big Army teaches commanders about RSTA and unless RSTA is used in places like JRTC or NTC, with almost career-killing implications for the commander who doesn't want to learn...not much will change because that's human nature. Historically, the Army is slow to grasp, if at all, the potential for a new tool. In some ways, I think commanders long for the days of dress-right-dress, fix bayonets, at the double quick, march.


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## Spider6 (Feb 12, 2012)

Freefalling you are correct.  I have walked into a TOC and introduced myself as the OPSO for the LRS company and was immediately asked what's LRS.  Of course if a commande sin't sure about something due to a complete lack of training, knowledge and experience 9 times out of 10 they'll say no.  However if you get an old school, former Ranger Regiment commander you will have no lack of missions.  And as dsummer and I stated before there's a lot of emphasis on the high speed stuff and as a result the basic skill set starts to degrade.  Some LRS companies are now nothing more than a jump club for the rest of the BFSB.  I once had the BDE Commander show up on my UH-60s, who were late beause they had to  pick him up, then later he was upset with me becuase I missed my TOT!


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## dsumner (Feb 21, 2012)

There are also a lot of commanders who can't seem to figure out that while we have a shit load of firepower, are greatest asset is not being seen. We can do him far more good remaining hidden, than we can by trying to go toe to toe with someone in a fire fight.  They look at the number of weapons and vehicles we have, especially in what used to be light units, think we're more valuable to him as some sort mobile reserve. When we'd be far more useful in our primary role of providing him information, and marketing targets for naval gunfire, CAS, artillery, etc.


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## Spider6 (Feb 21, 2012)

Concur,  what's frustrating about all this is that these tactics and techniques you're describing were developed in Vietnam.  Read Recon Command by LTC Alex Lee (ret).  I read it twice prior to my last deployment!  The Army is still  struggling with CRS.  Can't remember shit.


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## Texas_Medic (Sep 29, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Today's ignorant Captain or Major is tomorrow's ignorant BN or BDE commander.
> 
> I'll go out on a limb and say you guys have tried like hell to make the CoC understand what you do and what you can do for them and they aren't terribly responsive?


+ one to that. I had to brief my Squadron Commander on what the hell the DRT (infantry guys stuck in a Cav unit) was all about. He still wanted to use us for security checkpoints and taking objectives. Short story, I left and went to the Q.


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## RocStarr (Oct 9, 2013)

I am Going into an (IBCT) (RSTA) unit and am getting the impression from this forum that it will not be fulfilling whatsoever..


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## TLDR20 (Oct 9, 2013)

RocStarr said:


> I am Going into an (IBCT) (RSTA) unit and am getting the impression from this forum that it will not be fulfilling whatsoever..


With that attitude it won't be.


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## RocStarr (Oct 9, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> With that attitude it won't be.


I am extremely excited about seeing combat is the reason i speak on it.. no combat.. no smiles


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## pardus (Oct 9, 2013)

RocStarr said:


> I am extremely excited about seeing combat is the reason i speak on it.. no combat.. no smiles



You need to post and intro before you post again. Thanks.


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## RocStarr (Oct 9, 2013)

Done and thank you!


pardus said:


> You need to post and intro before you post again. Thanks.


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## pardus (Oct 9, 2013)

RocStarr said:


> Done and thank you!



Good man.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 13, 2013)

The RSTA designation, along with a few others is going away.  All Squadrons will be designated Cavalry Squadrons and all Company level organizations are to be labeled Cavalry Troops. 

This guy that wants to see combat...I hope he knows that we're not going to war for awhile...at least that's what's on the horizon.


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## reed11b (Oct 13, 2013)

ThunderHorse said:


> The RSTA designation, along with a few others is going away.  All Squadrons will be designated Cavalry Squadrons and all Company level organizations are to be labeled Cavalry Troops.
> 
> This guy that wants to see combat...I hope he knows that we're not going to war for awhile...at least that's what's on the horizon.


Does that mean the infantry scout platoon will be going away w/i the Stryker Brigades?
Reed


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 13, 2013)

Haven't dug too much into the weeds on that.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 13, 2013)

reed11b said:


> Does that mean the infantry scout platoon will be going away w/i the Stryker Brigades?
> Reed



Historically mech Inf used 19D's in the scout platoons.  I would imagine it would be the same for Strykers. Sniper Sections will stay 11B.

I've always thought the RSTA concept was redundant, I would have rather seen dedicated LRS company at the BCT level, and keep the mounted scouts in the armored/mech units.

It makes very little sense to have a Cav Scout in a light/airborne unit.


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## reed11b (Oct 13, 2013)

JAB said:


> Historically mech Inf used 19D's in the scout platoons.  I would imagine it would be the same for Strykers. Sniper Sections will stay 11B.
> 
> I've always thought the RSTA concept was redundant, I would have rather seen dedicated LRS company at the BCT level, and keep the mounted scouts in the armored/mech units.
> 
> It makes very little sense to have a Cav Scout in a light/airborne unit.


Slight nitpic, a BCT could only really only support a LRS-D. And yes, I agree all BCT's, I,S and H should have a LRS-D considering the size of the battlespace they have controlled in recent conflicts.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 13, 2013)

I disagree that a BCT cannot support a comapny strength LRSU, but will say that LRSD would be a great start.

LRS brings a lot more than ground ISR capability, they can bring a SOF like capability to the BCT cdr, as well as being a force multiplier, especially due to the insertion and advanced skillset capabilities.

Imagine a BCT that can deploy LRS teams ahead of ground operations, giving ground ISR as well as CAS/Fires support, coupled with a abilities to perform surgical DA with follow on SSE. Just the PR capabilities at the BCT level would be a major improvement.

Now imagine if you could tie in a SIGINT capability and UAV IAR's at the BCT level, holy shit.

That would change what and how a BCT could affect the battle space on so many levels it would be unreal. Of course you would have to have competent commanders at the BCT level and you would inevitably piss off a bunch of other command levels laying claim to all those capabilities, etc.

Pipe dream, I know, but it could work and it would make the overall BCT capable of truly independent operations.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 14, 2013)

You have an entire Battalion size organization in a BCT whose job in Recce.  Employ them correctly instead of as a mounted infantry battalion.


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## reed11b (Oct 14, 2013)

ThunderHorse said:


> You have an entire Battalion size organization in a BCT whose job in Recce.  Employ them correctly instead of as a mounted infantry battalion.


Are you really stating that 19D's in Humvees have the same capabilities as a LRS team?? Different mission, different skill sets. THIS is why armor needs to keep there mitts off of the RSLC school and away from LRS.
Reed


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 14, 2013)

RSLC School has been moved from RTB to the Armor School.  It is supposed to remain on Camp Rogers however.  I'm just pointing at the fact that at least this Cav Unit has not practiced Recce in a long time and has been used as a motorized infantry battalion.  If you don't sharpen the blade, over time it dulls and rusts.


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## AWP (Oct 14, 2013)

ThunderHorse said:


> RSLC School has been moved from RTB to the Armor School.


 
Wow. I actually looked this up because it sounds so damn stupid (the concept, not you ThunderHorse).

http://www.benning.army.mil/armor/316thCav/content/rslc/



> The Reconnaissance and Surveillance Leaders Course is a 29-day course conducted by Delta Company, 4th Ranger Training Battalion at Fort Benning, GA.


 
Look at the URL and then look at the text. 

Then I saw this at the bottom:



> RSLC is not the Long Range Surveillance Leaders Course (LRSLC) of yesteryear. Although RSLC is a course within the Ranger Training Brigade, this is not the fourth phase of Ranger School nor is it mandatory to be airborne or Ranger qualified to attend.


 
Go home, Army, you're drunk.


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