# JTAC/TACP vs. Gunfighter



## CDG (Aug 13, 2013)

I'm currently going through the Project 275 course. It's a TACP skills course designed to get those of us new to the careerfield a jumpstart on our upgrade training.  This week is almost all on the range and it has brought up some good discussions.  We have a former 11B who is now a shooting instructor with Tiger Swan.  He has talked at length about getting JTACs that are more of a liability as a gunfighter than anything.  I am curious about the experiences of the members of this board that have worked with JTACs downrange. Particularly the SF soldiers.  This guy has relayed several stories from former SF/SMU guys he knows/works with that have told him they take a new JTAC out to the range ASAP to find out if he can perform.  If not, that JTAC will very likely spend more time in the TOC than out with the team.  Now, obviously CAS is our primary skillset.  But, what level of skill with a gun do you expect/want out of a JTAC?  In your experiences, is this something the community needs to work on more, or do you not even care as long as he is proficient with CAS?   I realize I am new to the careerfield, but I want to know what the prevalent opinion is now so I can work on what I need to work on from the get-go instead of playing catch-up later on. Thanks in advance.


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## Tyrant (Aug 13, 2013)

I've been a current JTAC now for almost 7 years. My personal requirements are a bit different than what I would require out of an attachment to my team. As long as you are proficient at Terminal Control, you can keep up (physically and mentally), you can help out with mission planning and CAS requests, able to employ multiple assets (fixed/rotary/ISR/indirect) and you are a self starter then you will be ok.
Remember, if you are the one shooting your rifle for other than marking a target with tracer, then we are seriously fucked.

P.S Dont be a "too cool for school" Air Force guy either, I fucking hate those asshats and fire them as soon as they get to our FOB/COP.


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## CDG (Aug 13, 2013)

Roger.   Thank you for the insight.


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## Tyrant (Aug 13, 2013)

Dont take what I said as shit talking or me beating my chest. As far as the "too cool for school" comment, I say the same thing to our 18 series guys too. Be humble, be proficient and be fit.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 14, 2013)

We hardly took our Airman out, when we did they stayed with the HQ section. The Infantry is a bit different,  we roll with a lot more joe's and firepower than most SOF teams (excluding Rangers). I agree if your working with Infantry and are having to use your rifle (not be confused with wanting to use your rifle), than its a really bad fucking day.

That all said, you should be able to shoot-move-communicate just as good as everyone else in the unit you are supporting. If that bad day happens and you're not on par it could cost you your life or someone else theirs.

Besides that it will be a lot easier for you to be accepted in whatever unit you are attached, if you can perform (out perform) the joe's you are supporting. You should remember that just b/c you become a TACP/JTAC, doesn't mean you are going to be accepted.  You will have to prove yourself, every time and all the time.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 14, 2013)

Just to add: not everyone in the Infantry is a awesome gunfighter. We work in Squad and up size units for a reason. Some people get ideas that each individual is some badass gunfighter and that is not the case at all. The unit of individuals trained to a standard, is what makes Infantry affective and not the individual shooters.

$.02


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## DA SWO (Aug 14, 2013)

Be a better communicator then anyone else, that's one of your major skill sets.
Be physically fit. Be professional, something some SGM's make difficult.


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## CDG (Aug 14, 2013)

Thanks to everyone for the advice so far. I'm definitely taking mental notes on all of it.


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## RackMaster (Aug 14, 2013)

While I was in know way a JTAC, I know my way around the TACP world a bit and was around while our JTAC pipeline started to emerge.  

I completely agree with all statements previously put out there.  You're job is to control the airspace and get those weapons systems on target; that is where you proficiency should be.  Not saying that you shouldn't be able to throw your own lead down range but any one that puts the uniform on, should have that basic ability.  Any one can talk on the radio but it's takes a lot of skill to do it properly while the shit is flying.


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## CDG (Aug 14, 2013)

I want to make it clear that I am in no way considering sacrificing ability with CAS and on the radios for gun skills.  Rather, I am considering taking on doing extra shooting and weapons handling (GreyGroup, TigerSwan, VTAC courses, etc.) when possible in order to make sure that should the situation come up where I need to employ my rifle/sidearm in an offensive role, I am able to be an asset and not a detriment.


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## DA SWO (Aug 14, 2013)

CDG said:


> I want to make it clear that I am in no way considering sacrificing ability with CAS and on the radios for gun skills.  Rather, I am considering taking on doing extra shooting and weapons handling (GreyGroup, TigerSwan, VTAC courses, etc.) when possible in order to make sure that should the situation come up where I need to employ my rifle/sidearm in an offensive role, I am able to be an asset and not a detriment.


Go for it, weapons training is always good, and part of your professional development.


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## Ranger Psych (Aug 14, 2013)

Do the courses, then make sure that you push for time to actually roll with the guys you'll be supporting.

We'd do ranges and our TACP's would be right there alongside us... and the whole time it was a pissing match for shot groups, which specifically meant that while he was a radio and bomb dropping god... he could handle his own if we needed to have him cover a sector for some ungodly reason.

Basically the same as doing RIP/RASP for assignment and basically proving to the guys that yes, you CAN hang.. even if your job isn't doing the same shit that the majority of the guys do.


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## RackMaster (Aug 15, 2013)

I think range time and extra training should always be a given, no matter the job.  We are all soldiers and should have a basic proficiency in soldiering skills.  You want a 'special' job, then you should be expected to be a bit more 'special' in the trigger department.


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## Lycurgus (Aug 16, 2013)

I am a JTAC and upon first contact I would dump my whole mag because after that I knew that I was more useful with the radio!  You have the capability to effect the tactical battlespace more than anyone else.  A good JTAC is priceless.  Agree with the above statements...stay in stellar shape, be able to hold you own, and also teach some of your basic JTAC skills to the guys you work with.  It might save their ass one day...and yours!


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## Chris16 (Aug 17, 2013)

Is there a difference from a Combat Controller to a TACP that's assigned to a SOF element when it comes to weapons training ? Since all Combat Controllers are SOF but not all TACPs are.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 17, 2013)

Chris16 said:


> Is there a difference from a Combat Controller to a TACP that's assigned to a SOF element when it comes to weapons training ? Since all Combat Controllers are SOF but not all TACPs are.



I've always had the same question,  as it seems kind of redundant.


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## DA SWO (Aug 17, 2013)

JAB said:


> I've always had the same question,  as it seems kind of redundant.





Chris16 said:


> Is there a difference from a Combat Controller to a TACP that's assigned to a SOF element when it comes to weapons training ? Since all Combat Controllers are SOF but not all TACPs are.



CCT has a larger mission set then just JTAC.  They are Air Traffic Controllers who can set up Assault Zones, be a JTAC, and a few other missions. JTAC is the current high demand mission.

Not all TACP's are JTAC's (I am told this will change in the future).


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## CDG (Aug 18, 2013)

SOWT said:


> CCT has a larger mission set then just JTAC.  They are Air Traffic Controllers who can set up Assault Zones, be a JTAC, and a few other missions. JTAC is the current high demand mission.
> 
> Not all TACP's are JTAC's (I am told this will change in the future).



Correct.  CCTs primary mission set is not being a JTAC, but with the prevalence of CAS in the current conflicts, they grabbed as much of the JTAC role as they could.  What hurts the TACP community is we don't have the Officer power that CCTs do.  We just started growing our own officers, but it will take awhile for 13Ls to make their way into positions where they can really have an impact on a broad scale.  CCTs and TACPs have a bit of a rivalry when it comes to the JTAC mission set.  They think we're not as capable as they are when it comes to working with SOF because our training pipeline is shorter and we are not under AFSOC.  TACPs think that CCTs aren't in the same league when it comes to performing JTAC duties, and around it goes.  

As far as TACP becoming 100% JTAC, that is in the works.  JTACQC will become a part of the pipeline, but who knows when that will happen.  The Schoolhouse is supposed to be moving to Lackland too.  But the budget being what it is, no one really seems to know how long it will take for all this stuff to actually happen.


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