# Higher Education:  Your Experiences, Your Questions



## Echo (Apr 2, 2011)

I believe this is the correct place to post this so here it goes. I assume that being SOF means little free time for college so I'm sure those of you with degrees have some reputable references. I'm looking to further my knowledge and experience in my occupational specialty (HUMINT) while also furthering my civilian education. I am stuck on taking "civilian courses" such as Psychology and Criminal Justice or "intel courses" provided by AMU and Cochise. Which would be more beneficial in this field? Does anyone here have a degree from one of these colleges? Plan B for my career is definitely staying in my field either GSP or OGA so I'm wondering if government agencies recognize these degrees and if not, what would you recommend?


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## Marauder06 (Apr 2, 2011)

I earned an online master's degree in Management and Leadership from Webster University.  It took a couple of years but I got it knocked out.  I took courses while assigned to major SOF units, while deployed, and even while I was at ASOC (definitely not recommended).

The thing about online programs is that they're not very highly regarded outside the military- certain caveats apply but I found that to be the general rule.  When I was applying for a certain assignment it was "yes you have a master's degree, but it was online"  Yeah, sorry, I've been fighting the war for the last seven years this was the best I could do 

At any rate, having a degree still shows that you are motivated, focused, and committed to learning and self-improvement. Those are all good traits.  Moreover, when it comes to education, "something" is better than "nothing" and having a degree could be the discriminator between you and another similarly-qualified guy.  I know that was the case early in my career when I interviewed for a job as a general's aide; one lieutenant had a master's (not me) and the other didn't... guess who got the job (not me)?  Finally, if nothing else might be able to transfer some credits or show improvement in your grades from high school or undergrad.

If online is the way to go for you, try to go with a program that's not (in)famous as a degree mill, like University of Phoenix, etc.  Make sure the program is accredited, and keep in mind that online programs are usually more expensive than traditional brick-and-mortar classrooms.


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## Echo (Apr 2, 2011)

Thanks for the advice Marauder. I'm not looking to be spoon fed names of universities or degrees, but I am a little bewildered as to what's more reputable to government agencies. I know there's no catch all answer which is why I'm looking for anyone familiar with this situation.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 2, 2011)

Are you CONUS?  If so, go to the education office and make an appointment to talk to a counselor.  He or she can probably give you better advice than I can.  A lot of schools give constructive credit for military education; Webster credited me for something like four classes for completing the intel officers advanced course.


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## L0gan4 (Apr 2, 2011)

Im currently enrolled with AMU. I have about 14 classes until I graduate. I love the way the classes are set up how understanding the teachers are.  The classes run eight weeks as opposed to a regular 16 week schedule. I would highly recommend it. I take two classes at a time and it is a pretty big workload. I would recommend taking just one class for the first couple semesters until you get the hang of it.
Be advised that there is a lot of writing. The general education is a cake walk, but the upper level course get super heavy and very analytical.
One of my best friends just finished his Intel degree with AMU. He said the upper level Intel classes required him to write 15-20 papers. This is normal in any core classes, but the Intel program is known for this.
Good luck with your choices.
BTW, AMU took all of my military courses and used them towards my bachelors. I think it was a total of 36 units. Knocking about a year off of school.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 2, 2011)

Here's a review of AMU, I thought it was having some accreditation issues but it looks like I was wrong.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20100519035805AA6O0d7


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## 104TN (Apr 2, 2011)

Personal observation: It's hard to get a degree in anything practical (read relevant to the job market) online.


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## 0699 (Apr 2, 2011)

L0gan4 said:


> Im currently enrolled with AMU. I have about 14 classes until I graduate. I love the way the classes are set up how understanding the teachers are. The classes run eight weeks as opposed to a regular 16 week schedule. I would highly recommend it. I take two classes at a time and it is a pretty big workload. I would recommend taking just one class for the first couple semesters until you get the hang of it.
> Be advised that there is a lot of writing. The general education is a cake walk, but the upper level course get super heavy and very analytical.
> One of my best friends just finished his Intel degree with AMU. He said the upper level Intel classes required him to write 15-20 papers. This is normal in any core classes, but the Intel program is known for this.
> Good luck with your choices.
> BTW, AMU took all of my military courses and used them towards my bachelors. I think it was a total of 36 units. Knocking about a year off of school.



_Note: My opinion (FWIW; if you don't care, neither do I...) is based on completeing a BA degree at a B&M school while on AD.  About 50% of my classes were in class and the other half were DE.  I had my tuition fully paid for by military TA; I paid about $1,000 out of pocket for books & fees._

You should complete a bachelor's degree while on AD.  Too much money available through the different routes (TA, GIB, ACF, scholarships, loans, etc) to not do it.  I don't buy the "I've deployed too much to go to school" BS either, as I completed 18 credit hours while deployed.

I would not judge a school based on the input of a student; the important question is what do employers think about it.  IME, schools such as AMU and UoP have a poor reputation in the business/government world.  Do they meet the minimum requirement?  Yes.  Are they the best you can do?  If you were the recruiter for XXX program, who would you rate better qualified to work for your company, the candidate with a degree from AMU or the candidate with a degree from SDSU?

Here's my two cents...
1) Get a degree in a standard undergraduate program such as history, mathmatics, accounting, chemistry, etc.  Stay away from the specialized degrees like intelligence studies or basket distribution, as those can be saved for a master's program.
2) Attend a B&M school.  Almost all of them have DE programs now, most of them very well run.  Hell, Harvard has a DE program.  Stay away from any school that runs ads on TV or radio.  UoP likes to tout the "we're on-line" stuff, but doesn't tell you that tons of schools have DE degrees/classes.
3)Learn all you can.  Don't consider the general education courses as "BS I have to get through to get my degree".  A bachelor's degree shuld imply that you're generally well rounded educationally, not that you are an expert in one field.
4) Enjoy school.  Some of the best times I had in class were screwing with 19 YOs who's knowledge of the world was HS.  Calling them out was awesome. :)

Good luck.


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## policemedic (Apr 2, 2011)

I know for a fact that the University of Pennsylvania will accept AMU graduates into their graduate programs.  Penn is selective about everything, so this is a pretty strong recommendation.

With that said, I think online schools will continue to suffer from the perception that they are somehow less than traditional schools.  This is not the case (in fact, I think distance education is harder and requires more discipline) with schools that are properly accredited. But then again, employers will always exercise a certain amount of bias when judging which school you went to.  People of otherwise equal qualifications are often selected for assignment or employment based on the recruiter's opinion of the school they went to.  This can be good or bad, but it is reality and applies to traditional schooling as well as online degrees.

I do think that a degree from someplace like AMU beats the hell out of no degree.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 2, 2011)

I got an online master's and am in a B&M master's program right now.  This one is waaaay harder.

I think everyone's experience is going to differ, so just do what's best for you.  Having that master's (and a good GPA- finally) opened up a lot of doors for me.

I didn't know UPENN offered DL, what kinds of programs do they have?


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## Echo (Apr 2, 2011)

Marauder06 said:


> I think everyone's experience is going to differ, so just do what's best for you.



Yea I figured. Just trying to get as much info. Thanks all.


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## 0699 (Apr 2, 2011)

policemedic said:


> I know for a fact that the University of Pennsylvania will accept AMU graduates into their graduate programs. Penn is selective about everything, so this is a pretty strong recommendation.
> 
> With that said, I think online schools will continue to suffer from the perception that they are somehow less than traditional schools. This is not the case (in fact, I think distance education is harder and requires more discipline) with schools that are properly accredited. But then again, employers will always exercise a certain amount of bias when judging which school you went to. People of otherwise equal qualifications are often selected for assignment or employment based on the recruiter's opinion of the school they went to. This can be good or bad, but it is reality and applies to traditional schooling as well as online degrees.
> 
> I do think that a degree from someplace like AMU beats the hell out of no degree.


 
And I'm not saying the education you get from schools like AMU or UoP is bad, just that it is not as generally accepted in the outside world as more traditional schools. When you say "the University of Pennsylvania will accept AMU graduates into their graduate programs", you kind of prove my point, otherwise you would have said "The University of Phoenix will accept AMU graduates into their graduate programs".  I have never said to someone "your school sucks", hell, the only thing my school is known for is beating UVA in 1982. But when someone walks in with a degree from a "TV school" it carries a certain name bias.

And I agree with you about the difficulty of on-line classes over in-class. Hell, a lot of in-class sessions become BS time.


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## policemedic (Apr 2, 2011)

Marauder06 said:


> I got an online master's and am in a B&M master's program right now.  This one is waaaay harder.



In which way?  Is it a greater workload?  To me, online is more difficult simply because it requires the student to motivate themselves more and (perhaps) manage their time a bit better.  I think it's easier when you have face-to-face interaction with your professor and set times when your ass has to be in a chair.  I didn't mean to imply the work itself was harder.




Marauder06 said:


> I didn't know UPENN offered DL, what kinds of programs do they have?



They offer a number of online classes and learning opportunities.  I don't believe they have developed a fully online degree, however.

https://pennlpscommons.org/

http://www.sas.upenn.edu/summer/locations/online


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## Marauder06 (Apr 2, 2011)

Let me back up a minute- what level of education are you looking for here?  That's kind of glaring piece of information I should have asked about at the outset.  If you're looking AA or BA, to be honest I don't think it matters as long as you get good grades and it comes from an accredited institution.  For my AS and BS I went to schools that probably 90% of the site never heard of.  Unless you can get into a "major" school for undergrad, I really don't think it matters.  Good on you for continuing your education, no matter what route you take.


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## policemedic (Apr 2, 2011)

0699 said:


> When you say "the University of Pennsylvania will accept AMU graduates into their graduate programs", you kind of prove my point, otherwise you would have said "The University of Phoenix will accept AMU graduates into their graduate programs".



You lost me here.  I thought that a stamp of approval from the Ivy League was a higher validation of the quality of AMU's education than anything University of Phoenix (TV school- I like that  ) might say.

Or maybe you're saying the same thing and I'm experiencing vapor lock?  It's been known to happen.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 2, 2011)

policemedic said:


> In which way?  Is it a greater workload?  To me, online is more difficult simply because it requires the student to motivate themselves more and (perhaps) manage their time a bit better.  I think it's easier when you have face-to-face interaction with your professor and set times when your ass has to be in a chair.  I didn't mean to imply the work itself was harder.


I see.

I found online easier because it required a lot of reading- which I enjoy- and writing- which I'm really good at- and the people who were in my courses were, for the most part, not very adept at either.  In short, I felt like a rock star in my online courses.  The program I'm in now, most of my classmates are at least as good at the above as I am- some noticeably better- and I have to work a lot harder to get good grades.  In short, I feel like the standards and expectations in the B&M program are higher.




policemedic said:


> They offer a number of online classes and learning opportunities.  I don't believe they have developed a fully online degree, however.
> 
> https://pennlpscommons.org/
> 
> http://www.sas.upenn.edu/summer/locations/online



Nice, thanks.


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## Echo (Apr 2, 2011)

My main question remains:

1) Which would be more beneficial in HUMINT career field? "Civilian courses" such as Psychology and Criminal Justice or "intel specific courses" such as ones provided by AMU?


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## AWP (Apr 2, 2011)

Echo said:


> My main question remains:
> 
> 1) Which would be more beneficial in HUMINT career field? "Civilian courses" such as Psychology and Criminal Justice or "intel specific courses" such as ones provided by AMU?



Looking at some gov't jobs, they may say "A Bachelor's in XXXXX" but often any BA or BS will work, especially if you have experience in that field.


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## policemedic (Apr 3, 2011)

Echo said:


> My main question remains:
> 
> 1) Which would be more beneficial in HUMINT career field? "Civilian courses" such as Psychology and Criminal Justice or "intel specific courses" such as ones provided by AMU?



Well, we can discuss the merits of a particular school or its chosen delivery method(s), but at the end of the day you're the HUMINT guy.  There are other intel gurus here, but this is your career field.  You tell us; which path do you think is more beneficial?

If you were asking about police work, I'd be able to advise you.  However, the reason I'd be able to do that is because I know my field well-just as you're expected to know yours.


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## SpitfireV (Apr 3, 2011)

Honestly, from the tiny bit of informant recruiting I've done, the ability to get along with many different walks of life and a bit of animal cunning and a sense for weakness is better for HUMINT than any undergrad degree. I do know what you're asking, however.


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## Echo (Apr 3, 2011)

policemedic said:


> Well, we can discuss the merits of a particular school or its chosen delivery method(s), but at the end of the day you're the HUMINT guy. There are other intel gurus here, but this is your career field. You tell us; which path do you think is more beneficial?
> 
> If you were asking about police work, I'd be able to advise you. However, the reason I'd be able to do that is because I know my field well-just as you're expected to know yours.



Right. I'm looking for someone that has gone down this path. But I get the picture.


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## Echo (Apr 3, 2011)

Marauder06 said:


> I took courses while assigned to major SOF units, while deployed, and even while I was at ASOC



:eek: WTF???? Even at ASOC? Jesus.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 3, 2011)

Echo said:


> :eek: WTF???? Even at ASOC? Jesus.



Yes.  It was an extraordinarily bad idea and I definitely do not recommend it.

I was in one of the very first ASOC classes, and I grossly underestimated the difficulty of the course ;)


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## 0699 (Apr 3, 2011)

policemedic said:


> You lost me here. I thought that a stamp of approval from the Ivy League was a higher validation of the quality of AMU's education than anything University of Phoenix (TV school- I like that  ) might say.
> 
> Or maybe you're saying the same thing and I'm experiencing vapor lock? It's been known to happen.


 
And maybe I said it poorly.  This would be SO much easier in-person. I'm trying to say that you didn't use another online school to validate its quality, you used your respected local university.

If you're going to use UPenn to validate a degree from AMU, that obviously says you think highly of UPenn. It looks to me like you're saying "a quality school like the University of Pennsylvania will accept a degree from AMU for their graduate program" implying the UPenn is higher on the spectrum of quality. If that's the case, why not get an undergrad from a more reputable, higher regarded school in the first place? I am willing to guess that if you Google "XXX state university distance education" for your favorite college or university, they will have an on-line program of some sort.

Penn State has an on-line degree program. http://www.worldcampus.psu.edu/index.shtml?cid=0206_GOOLR89_0606&gclid=CL744Za2gKgCFYXc4AodsClPrw
Louisiana State University has on-line classes, but unfortunately no degree www.is.lsu.edu
Indiana University has a well-developed on-line program with a Bachelor's degree in General Studies http://scs.indiana.edu/undergraddegrees/undergraddegrees.html

_The above is my 0930 Sunday morning list; I'm sure there're more but I'm not awake enough to think of them right now._

There are hundreds (thousands?) of good traditional schools out there that offer distance education, and IME name-recognition is important. In both ways; IMO it's better to go to a small local school that the employer has to do some research about (but when he finds it he sees that it has a campus, football team, library, etc) than to a place that he instantly recognizes because it's that "TV school". 

IME, degrees from schools like UoP are a joke in the real world, and many people think AMU is a internal military school. Not like West Point or Annapolis, but like CCAF or MCI. Again, I'm not speaking to the quality of the education received there, but to their perception in the outside world.


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## 0699 (Apr 3, 2011)

Echo said:


> My main question remains:
> 
> 1) Which would be more beneficial in HUMINT career field? "Civilian courses" such as Psychology and Criminal Justice or "intel specific courses" such as ones provided by AMU?



I'm going to pull out here.  Really looks like you just want people to validate your attendance at AMU.  Good luck.


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## Echo (Apr 3, 2011)

0699 said:


> I'm going to pull out here. Really looks like you just want people to validate your attendance at AMU. Good luck.



Ok maybe I'm wording this question wrong and need to retake English. I haven't enrolled in anywhere, hell I still need to go to the Ed Center. What I'm asking is what classes would benefit me more in my career, "traditional" Psychology and Criminal Justice courses and degress or "tailored" ones specifically focused on intelligence subjects? Maybe I just answered my own question lol. I'll just try a little bit of everything. I guess a Bachelor's is a Bachelor's regardless if it's in "Intelligence Collection" or "Psychology".


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## 0699 (Apr 3, 2011)

And I let myself get dragged right back in...



Echo said:


> Ok maybe I'm wording this question wrong and need to retake English. I haven't enrolled in anywhere, hell I still need to go to the Ed Center. What I'm asking is what classes would benefit me more in my career, "traditional" Psychology and Criminal Justice courses and degress or "tailored" ones specifically focused on intelligence subjects? Maybe I just answered my own question lol. I'll just try a little bit of everything. *I guess a Bachelor's is a Bachelor's regardless if it's in "Intelligence Collection" or "Psychology*".



False.  Did you read my first post?


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## TLDR20 (Apr 3, 2011)

rick said:


> Personal observation: It's hard to get a degree in anything practical (read relevant to the job market) online.



If you want to go into the medical field, and are an 18D Western Carolina has a pretty good online program..


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## x SF med (Apr 3, 2011)

Echo said:


> Ok maybe I'm wording this question wrong and need to retake English. I haven't enrolled in anywhere, hell I still need to go to the Ed Center. What I'm asking is what classes would benefit me more in my career, "traditional" Psychology and Criminal Justice courses and degress or "tailored" ones specifically focused on intelligence subjects? Maybe I just answered my own question lol. I'll just try a little bit of everything. I guess a Bachelor's is a Bachelor's regardless if it's in "Intelligence Collection" or "Psychology".



Echo-
The goal of a degree is to allow you to think - in a logical and cogent manner - All degrees require basic courses that are the same...  English, History, Math, etc...  take the Core requirements first.  Even if they are at a local Community College.  Figure out what interests you - University really shouldn't be a vo-tech scenario - learn, get educated.  Then get your Master's (which really is a vo-tech degree) in your career field.

My thoughts on what you should study to really be good at your job in HUMINT - Behavioral/Social Sciences (Psychology, Anthropology and Sociology) and Humanities (specifically Literature and History).  As they teach you to think - not just like yourself, but like others.

Do the Intel degree later - you still have lots of Military courses to teach you your job the way the Army wants it done.

I'm disappointed in you - a HUMINT guy that can't figure out something this simple?


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## 104TN (Apr 3, 2011)

Echo said:


> I guess a Bachelor's is a Bachelor's regardless if it's in "Intelligence Collection" or "Psychology".


False - simply having a bachelors will do absolutely nothing to distinguish you from the competition if the degree itself holds no value.
Take a look at some of the intel reqs on USAJOBS.gov. The two things they're looking for are experience doing the job (this is your TIS) and expertise in a subject (this is your higher ed.).


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## Marine0311 (Apr 3, 2011)

Echo said:


> I believe this is the correct place to post this so here it goes. I assume that being SOF means little free time for college so I'm sure those of you with degrees have some reputable references. I'm looking to further my knowledge and experience in my occupational specialty (HUMINT) while also furthering my civilian education. I am stuck on taking "civilian courses" such as Psychology and Criminal Justice or "intel courses" provided by AMU and Cochise. Which would be more beneficial in this field? Does anyone here have a degree from one of these colleges? Plan B for my career is definitely staying in my field either GSP or OGA so I'm wondering if government agencies recognize these degrees and if not, what would you recommend?



Online education is what you put into it. I recently got an A.A from an online school. There was alot of writing, needed to log in to the student portal daily to submit work and for "attendance". I didn't like the lack of feedback, the rigid grading system or the copy and pasted comments I received for my weekly assignments. However if you're deployed, shift work or simply don't have the time to attend school because of life demands I would find the best one rated out there and go for it.

I believe they do but I don't know how much weight they give. A degree is a degree on paper at least. It's something you should as anyone you know who are in HR, personnel or recruiters. I have an average opinion based upon what I went through. I will be doing my B.A at a brick and motar school. The major you choose does matter as does your grades. Don't pick basket weaving because you're bored.


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## Scotth (Apr 3, 2011)

I think there was a lot of good advice and especially like 0699 and xSF's points.  I think looking for traditional schools with DL programs will best serve you long term.  The two issues I would focus on in choosing any program is accreditation and credit transfers to other institutions.

Accreditation is tricky and needs to be researched.  Almost every "school" will claim some type of accreditation.  You need to look at the specific program and what the program has for accreditation.  If your looking at an accounting program is that particular program accredited by a national accounting accreditation program.  That's what give the education substance beyond just name recognition of the school.

Credit and degree transfer is something to be aware of as well.  A lot of for-profit schools that give a specific degree won't be recognized by institutions when you want to get another undergrad or masters degree later in life.  I had a good friends wife who got a two year paralegal degree from a for-profit school.  She got a paralegal job and was well rewarded.  After more then 10 years she decided to go back to school to become a lawyer.  That two year degree didn't transfer nor did any of her credits.  She had to basically restart her undergrad degree so she could eventually get to law school.

Think long term because you don't want to waste money and time on an education that can't take you to the places you want to be in 10 years from now.

I also believe that a particular undergrad degrees is important in getting your first job after college.  After you have actual work experience that will be the biggest factor in future jobs.  Having the undergrad degree will be more of a check mark or a means for whittling down the pile of resumes.  Getting the masters degree in your chosen profession will be the door opener for higher achievement.


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## JimMCpog (Apr 6, 2011)

SpitfireV said:


> Honestly, from the tiny bit of informant recruiting I've done, the ability to get along with many different walks of life and a bit of animal cunning and a* sense for weakness* is better for HUMINT than any undergrad degree. I do know what you're asking, however.



How do you exploit that sense for weakness once you've sensed it?


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## SpitfireV (Apr 6, 2011)

I suppose that depends on what your organisation does and their SOPs. It also depended on the person involved. I was only ever a dedicated amateur at it- our SOP was to push them over to the investigators and they'd make the pitch. We just did the groundwork and a brief. Well, those of us who took such things seriously. Could you shed some more light on it by chance?


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## Boon (Apr 7, 2011)

Stay on topic or start a new thread please.


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## dknob (Apr 12, 2011)

I'm with 0699 on this one. I graduated with a BA in PoliSci from a brick and mortar (UCF) and enrolled at AMU for my Masters in Intel Studies.
I was accepted instantly and they immediately wanted a form of payment. I immediately went off to read reviews to get second opinions. For one.. although an online school can be just as if not more educationally demanding then going to a B&M. There is another factor that employers look for - the social factor. Like it or not, the college experience builds a person socially, not just intellectually. And an online school like AMU does not do that.

I also work as a headhunter for pharmaceutical companies - anything from clinical to financial/sales/marketing. And the hiring managers always express that they do not want somebody from a non B&M college.

The thing that really made me decide to drop AMU was the fact that I instantly could start. College should be competitive, ESPECIALLY a Masters program. AMU is an automatic acceptance school (no-go). It's an assembly line for degrees.

Although a Masters in intelligence collection/studies sounded great - ultimately it would have been a waste of my money.

I don't want to offend anybody, so if I did, take it up on PM.


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## Marauder06 (Aug 24, 2011)

A friend of mine is attending Yale through their "Eli Whitney" program.  The way he described it, the program takes "non-traditional" students, who are usually a good bit older and have some unique life experience, and admits them as undergrads.  I would guess that a good number of our members would fit their interpretation of "non-traditional."  If you're out of the service and looking to get into one of the top universities in the world, consider giving Yale and the Eli Whitney program a shot.  I don't have anything to do with the program, I just thought it could be a great opportunity for some of our members, so I'm posting it.

http://admissions.yale.edu/eli-whitney


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## moobob (Aug 24, 2011)

Echo said:


> My main question remains:
> 
> 1) Which would be more beneficial in HUMINT career field? "Civilian courses" such as Psychology and Criminal Justice or "intel specific courses" such as ones provided by AMU?



A degree in a relevant, low density foreign language. A degree in poly sci/international relations, or area studies tailored to the middle east, Russia, or asia. A degree in a hard science... Some others.

Depends on who you want to work for... and what you want to do for work.


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## Brill (Aug 26, 2011)

Echo said:


> Which would be more beneficial in this field? Does anyone here have a degree from one of these colleges? Plan B for my career is definitely staying in my field either GSP or OGA so I'm wondering if government agencies recognize these degrees and if not, what would you recommend?



The OGA hiring managers do not care what your BA or BS is in.  Heck, I left AD in 2001 to take a USG job and didn't actually graduate with my degree until 2003.  I've worked with people who had JD, MBA, and one of the sharpest analysts I ever worked with had a BA in Philosophy.  They all could WRITE VERY WELL, were very organized, and conducted amazing research.  Regarding languages, it is very common for OGAs to hire someone only to retrain them into a needed language.   I know guys to were 2/2 in French, Spanish, and even Russian and all 3 were retrained into GWOT languages immediately after hiring.

Here is a dose of reality: all that cool shit you think you'll be doing working as an OGA civilian...it's only in the movies man.  If you want to do really cool stuff that you cannot do because of military restrictions, become a contractor that supports OGAs.  High risk, high pay, and very rewarding.  Just remember...they are expendable: not as in their life is expendable but as it "thanks, the project is over and this contract is terminated.  Have a nice day."


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## Marauder06 (Jun 27, 2012)

"GIBill.com" has been steering unsuspecting vets to for-profit colleges.  Colleges who happen to be clients/sponsors of the site.  Nice.

http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...tion-turns-gibillcom-over-to-veterans-affairs

The U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs will receive a website, GIBill.com, from a marketing company accused of deceiving veterans by steering them to for-profit colleges while it masqueraded as an unbiased source of information.

The states involved in the settlement alleged that the company duped users by implying that military education benefits could only be used at schools listed on its website, when in fact it the list of schools was incomplete.
GIBill.com also allegedly said its information was unbiased and comprehensive when in fact only clients of the company were listed on the site.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jun 29, 2012)

lindy said:


> *The OGA hiring managers do not care what your BA or BS is in.* Heck, I left AD in 2001 to take a USG job and didn't actually graduate with my degree until 2003. I've worked with people who had JD, MBA, and one of the sharpest analysts I ever worked with had a BA in Philosophy. They all could WRITE VERY WELL, were very organized, and conducted amazing research. Regarding languages, it is very common for OGAs to hire someone only to retrain them into a needed language. I know guys to were 2/2 in French, Spanish, and even Russian and all 3 were retrained into GWOT languages immediately after hiring.
> 
> Here is a dose of reality: all that cool shit you think you'll be doing working as an OGA civilian...it's only in the movies man. *If you want to do really cool stuff that you cannot do because of military restrictions, become a contractor that supports OGAs. High risk, high pay, and very rewarding.* Just remember...they are expendable: not as in their life is expendable but as it "thanks, the project is over and this contract is terminated. Have a nice day."


 
Quite accurate really. We had some OGA recruiters come out to Texas Tech earlier this year, and one of em put it best when he said "whatever degree you can think of that is offered here, there are at least several people back at the agency that have it".

To your second point, from what I've heard that's yes and no. Buddy of mine who was Marine infantry for four years before getting out worked for blackwater for the longest time (or whatever they call themselves now) until recently and did a few interesting protection gig's and such, but when wanting to move into something like kidnap victim recovery and other really high speed shit, he basically got told "unless you have a SOF background your not gonna be able to do those kinds of contracts". Sadly he's leaving the company due to the corporate mindset they board there is running things under now.


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## Powder (Jul 11, 2012)

So the general idea that I am getting from this is that getting an associates or bachelors from an online school such as AMU while AD is not a bad idea but for something like a masters you are going to want to go to a B&M school. Example, general studies or a history degree from AMU and later get a masters from somewhere that has actual classrooms.


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## CDG (Aug 15, 2012)

I just spent $600 on textbooks.  $600 fucking dollars for books, all of which were either used, rentals, or e-textbooks.  It would have been close to, or over, $1,000 had I had to buy all new books.  Ridiculous.  Thank god for the GI Bill or I would be stuck choosing between a marginal chance at a higher paying job while being saddled with thousands of dollars in student loans, or a lower paying job and fewer prospects, but no student loans.  The "higher education" system in this country needs a serious evaluation.


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## LimaOscarSierraTango (Aug 15, 2012)

CDG said:


> I just spent $600 on textbooks. $600 fucking dollars for books, all of which were either used, rentals, or e-textbooks. It would have been close to, or over, $1,000 had I had to buy all new books. Ridiculous. Thank god for the GI Bill or I would be stuck choosing between a marginal chance at a higher paying job while being saddled with thousands of dollars in student loans, or a lower paying job and fewer prospects, but no student loans. The "higher education" system in this country needs a serious evaluation.


 
My boss was tripping out because he bought books for three of his kids that just started college and he paid $600 total. I told him to quit complaining because when I went to school $600 was average for one student's set up books for a semester. He blew me off, but at least he STFU about it.

Good luck brother!  You'll be lucky to get $90 selling them back to the bookstore at the end of the semester.  More money selling them to other students.


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## AWP (Aug 15, 2012)

CDG said:


> I just spent $600 on textbooks. $600 fucking dollars for books, all of which were either used, rentals, or e-textbooks. It would have been close to, or over, $1,000 had I had to buy all new books. Ridiculous. Thank god for the GI Bill or I would be stuck choosing between a marginal chance at a higher paying job while being saddled with thousands of dollars in student loans, or a lower paying job and fewer prospects, but no student loans. The "higher education" system in this country needs a serious evaluation.


 
$350 for two books this semester for me.


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## CDG (Aug 15, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> $350 for two books this semester for me.


 
Fuck.  That's exactly what I'm talking about.  $350 for two goddamn books?  How is that legal?  The thing is, it's not like a normal store where if shit's overpriced you just go to another one with better prices.  Your options are pay the money or don't get an education.


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## AWP (Aug 15, 2012)

CDG said:


> Fuck. That's exactly what I'm talking about. $350 for two goddamn books? How is that legal? The thing is, it's not like a normal store where if shit's overpriced you just go to another one with better prices. Your options are pay the money or don't get an education.


 
And mine are IT classes...you can go to any physical or virtual bookstore and find books on Database Administration or Networking for a shit-ton less than 350 combined.

One thing to look for in your books: go through the "Thank you" or "These people helped proof read the book" pages and you stand a decent chance of finding your instructor or one from your school; your required texts weren't chosen at random.


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## CDG (Aug 15, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> One thing to look for in your books: go through the "Thank you" or "These people helped proof read the book" pages and you stand a decent chance of finding your instructor or one from your school; your required texts weren't chosen at random.


 
Yep. I am aware of this little arrangement. I understand colleges need money to operate. We have gone FAR past that though, into them being nothing more than a business that is only concerned about the profit line. The "education" I have received in my few semesters at school has been nowhere near worth the money "I" paid for it.


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## AWP (Aug 15, 2012)

There's aren't enough Agree buttons on this board for your last post.


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## x SF med (Aug 15, 2012)

If you pay me I can give you insight into the college textbook industry. and I hate to give this up without payment, but the used textbook market forces the price of new textbooks higher, creating a higheer pricepoint for their own parasitic product... the economic formula for what's happening is a bit complex, but all of the costs borne by the publisher need to be recovered sooner, where the life of the product is extended due to perceived obsoesence by the end user, the middle man, reuses the same product over and over, relying on the needs of the end user, and reaping the benefits of R&D/production/initial storage/revisions on the publisher... the hold period for the used book seller is short (max 2 months) the cost of product is cheap (less than 20% of the cost of the used selling price) and the retail is high (80% of the cost of a new book). Then throw in the commodity made of commodities (ink, labor, paper, intellectual property), Royalties (used book sellers do not compensate the authors in any way), and R&D... and you can see that the used textbook sellers are callously taking advantage of students and screwing authors. (BTW, the preceding scenarios added 40% to the cost of producing a textbook at the time I left that industry... increased costs of labor and materials only added 9.5%).

ok.... rant off... Yes, I was a Senior Financial Analyst for a Major College Texbook Publishers - for all phases of the publishing /production/sales life, and I started while I was still in College... I may have gotten friends and family textbooks for no cost while employed in that inustry, but then again I may not... I would hazard a guess that althoughg the companies i worked for have changed names/imprints and ownership, that 99% of the college students/grads on this board used at least 3 books I personally worked on at some point - not the editions I worked on, but the titles.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 15, 2012)

I always hated classes that had an "updated" version every semester, forcing you to purchase new vice picking up a used book.


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## x SF med (Aug 15, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> I always hated classes that had an "updated" version every semester, forcing you to purchase new vice picking up a used book.


 
thank the used book sellers...


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## Brill (Aug 15, 2012)

I wonder why they don't "e-reader" texts?



x SF med said:


> thank the used book sellers...


 
As well as the access to financial aid, both loans and VA benefits, which are driving education prices through the roof.


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## AWP (Aug 15, 2012)

lindy said:


> I wonder why they don't "e-reader" texts?


 
Some books do and I'd use them if I could.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 15, 2012)

I was chatting with CDG about this on FB and recommended Amazondotcom.  He said he was able to get his initial order cancelled and then save about $200 by renting through Amazon.  Something others may want to look into as well.


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## CDG (Aug 15, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> I was chatting with CDG about this on FB and recommended Amazondotcom. He said he was able to get his initial order cancelled and then save about $200 by renting through Amazon. Something others may want to look into as well.


 
Yep.  I created a booklist through the school's bookstore website so that I had all the correct ISBN numbers, then just searched the Amazon textbooks section for them.  I was able to save so much by Amazon having rentals available.  One particular book was only available as new from B&N (the school's bookstore) for over $100, and I found it for rent on Amazon for just over $30.  I had never even thought to look into Amazon before, and I was pleasantly surprised by how much I was able to save.

 For the record, I still think the textbook industry is a rip-off though.  My initial rant stands!


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 15, 2012)

If I was an Officer and my wife was an NCO, I'd take full credit for the Amazon idea.


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## x SF med (Aug 15, 2012)

lindy said:


> I wonder why they don't "e-reader" texts?
> 
> 
> 
> As well as the access to financial aid, both loans and VA benefits, which are driving education prices through the roof.


 

we tried to get the e-book thing going on textbooks...  in the late 90's... students hated it because books couldn't be shared easily, used book sellers hated it - no $$ for them.


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## 104TN (Aug 15, 2012)

half.com is your friend for textbooks.


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## SpitfireV (Aug 15, 2012)

My CN textbooks were set to be about 95 for the set (textbook/workbook) but a mate was going over and got them for 15 bucks...for both. Your textbook market sounds out of control, I won't complain about mine anymore!


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## littleninja71 (Feb 1, 2013)

moobob said:


> A degree in a relevant, low density foreign language. A degree in poly sci/international relations, or area studies tailored to the middle east, Russia, or asia. A degree in a hard science... Some others.
> 
> Depends on who you want to work for... and what you want to do for work.


 

^^Says it well. So did the post following from SOF support.  If you like your current work, analyze your superiors, those who you respect and know are the finest in the trade. What do they do better than anyone else? Follow their lead but be sure you're following what you want and what will hold your interest long term.

Languages as a study delve into culture which is extremely useful. Can't say enough for forensic psychology in the realm of manipulating for information extraction. Logic and philosophy classes as non-major requirements give great depth to human thought process and rationalization concepts.  Statistics, mathematics - patterns are everywhere. Recognize them first and you hold the key to behavior control and manipulation.

My 2 cents on B&M school vs. online.  Always go for the B&M as a first option. Online as a last option.  No degree is NOT an option.  I did my undergrad and several professional cert. and related courses at B&M institutions, no substitute for the experience.  I got my Master's through an online program only because constant travel with little notice - frequently - made it impossible to attend regular B&M courses.  Ironically I had no problem leaving good impression during interviews with federal agencies regarding the Notorious UoP. Yes, they let anyone in who isn't a felon (sad...so sad). But - instructors with real world, current experience on topic is invaluable. Life teaches us all that reality>theory, seven ways to Sunday. UoP is nationally accredited just the same as any B&M so there's no issue in that regard.  You get out of the degree what you're willing to put in. I pulled a 3.9 but I did everything 110%, extra homework, research, followed up with instructors after courses. One of the more useful take-away opportunities from the online format is learning team-work and personality management. My goal was to get a 4.0 but I had to work with some schleps who just wanted a piece of paper. I learned more about motivating others, cooperation, coordination, mutual respect, communication (many students were deployed to scattered zones and some students did not speak English as a first language) and flexibility than any academia setting could provide. Those are highly regarded attributes in the business world.  If you plan to stay closer to military type work or security/intel at the federal level and want to grow into leadership roles - the NIU is a great place to further your education. I missed my opportunity to go that route so I can't give input on that topic - other than to say I regret not being able to take advantage of NIU.

Best of luck whatever you decide.


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## demo18c (Feb 3, 2013)

The trend of rating online courses has changed to being highly looked at. Your have to have motivation to study on your own and complete assignments when there are soooo many distractions. Most schools now have online programs that are no different than in class classes to include all state universities...UMASS. The diploma says the same whether online or in class.


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## Salt USMC (Feb 4, 2013)

I just started my first year of college and thought that 260$ for books was expensive!  I'd hate to be taking whatever classes you guys are taking.


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## 8654Maine (Feb 4, 2013)

Interesting thread.  In my career, an online degree would be laughed at.

But I can see how that might be different for other career fields.

But, in the end, one's performance will determine career longevity, regardless of who conferred the degree.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 4, 2013)

8654Maine said:


> Interesting thread. In my career, an online degree would be laughed at.
> 
> But I can see how that might be different for other career fields.
> 
> But, in the end, one's performance will determine career longevity, regardless of who conferred the degree.


 
My online degree WAS laughed at when I applied for (and was rejected from) a specific job I really, really wanted.  That was my first clue that "not all degrees are created equal."


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## 8654Maine (Feb 4, 2013)

Mara, you'll get a kick out of this:
My current job had one opening when I applied. Pretty competitive. Came down to me and an applicant from Baystate in Mass. I thought for sure he had it: Former Marine Captain and he was chief resident. Me, I was just a former Marine E-5 and a scruffy resident. But, it came down to where we got our degrees that made the difference and I got it. He and I really hit it off and became good friends and they decided to hire both of us.

I also applied to another place and met a Eli alum interviewer. I told her about my elective time in Yale-New Haven hospital. When she asked me about it and expected me to gush, I told her what I truthfully thought and that interview closed pretty damn quick. My big mouth really shut a lot of doors but it also opened some as well.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 4, 2013)

New Haven is a dump.  The unions, criminals, and politicians have driven most of the light industry out of the area.  there are few jobs and the crime rate here is unreal.  If it wasn't for the university, this place would be North Camden.


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## Marine0311 (Feb 4, 2013)

I am only online school for the rest of this year as a means to an end.  Overall online schools suck dick in many ways.


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## demo18c (Feb 5, 2013)

My online degree from UNC will say MBA just like in class work. Most government agencies will not use how the degree was achieved as a deciding factor if it is regionally accredited. I'm not talking kalplan or university of Phoenix, I'm talking about penn state, unc, Harvard extension....


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## policemedic (Feb 5, 2013)

A bachelor's from American Military University is sufficient to gain acceptance to Master's programs at an Ivy I'm familiar with, provided the other requirements are met. The key, as demo18c notes, is regional accreditation.


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## Muppet (Feb 5, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> New Haven is a dump. The unions, criminals, and politicians have driven most of the light industry out of the area. there are few jobs and the crime rate here is unreal. If it wasn't for the university, this place would be North Camden.


 
Fuck Camden...

F.M.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 5, 2013)

Exactly.


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## Salt USMC (Feb 7, 2013)

Ooooh....my COMM class gave their 4-minute autobiographical speeches yesterday, and it turns out that one guy is (or claims to be) a former SWCC!  I think I may have found a unicorn


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## Marine0311 (Feb 11, 2013)

Update:

Due to a wacky work schedule since returning from contracting years ago I went to one semester at a B/M school in B.A program. Then I began to work two jobs (the goal of which is getting hired by one, a civil service position). I then returned to an online school in a B.S program because I had the most credits toward the major I am in. In short it sucks. However my dear dear hope is that it looks good on paper to the eye.

When I get one job I will go to a B/M school. Even if I have to take 1 or 2 courses I would rather sit in a classroom and get a B.A degree from a real, B/M, name known school.


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 13, 2013)

Marauder06 , I've heard you talk about the EWSP at Yale.  I fired up the Google and did a bit of looking around.  I have a few questions that have gone unanswered, perhaps you could help me out, Sir.
-What benefits does this program have to us, as Veterans?  
-My GPA upon leaving NC State University (with 48 credit hours) was not good...yeah, we'll go with not good.  It's obviously not indicative of my study habits/work ethic now 10 years later, but they're going to see that if I apply.  Thoughts?
-I have a negative amount of desire to move to the NW.  
-The site says: 





> As many as eighteen course credits earned at another college or university may be transferred toward the requirements for the bachelor's degree.



"Course credits" means an actual class and not credit hours?  So, most classes/courses are 3 credit hours.  3 x 18 = 54 as the max number of _credit hours _that can/will transfer?
-Same type of question for tuition.  $4,700/course credit.  Going by: course credit = 1 class.  If you take a full load of 5 classes, that's $23,500 per semester.  MGIB rate for FY 2013 is $1,564/month.  Are you paying out of pocket for the rest?  Maybe this relates back to my 1st question.  

That's all I can think of for now.  Thanks in advance for your help, Sir.


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## NBC-Guy (Mar 14, 2013)

Not sure if anyone has heard about it but I use chegg.com for my books.  If its just a course that is taken to check a box it will save you a ton of money by just renting the book opposed to buying it.  Also you don't have to worry about getting hosed on the trade in at the school when your course is completed.

I too am doing online classes and should have my Associates after a lot of procrastination on my part.  Before I got on with the BOP, I had actually looked into attending Seattle University. Not sure how many PacNW people we have on here, but they have a program where Leadership and Real World experiences will get you into a MBA program (without possessing a Bachelor's Degree).  It will require an interview with the Program Recruiter, GMAT test, any transcripts from ungraduate classes attended, and a formal interview after the application is submitted.  If anyone in the PacNW wants additional information, I still have the packets, GMAT study guides, and POC's for the program.  They do have the Yellow Ribbon program but it is highly competitive according to the Interviewer I talked to.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 14, 2013)

I want to put in another plug for the *Eli Whitney Program* and the *Warrior Scholar Project* that are both run out of Yale.  A lot of people might look at a place like Yale and say, "I could never get in there, because <insert weak-ass excuse here>."  I'm here to tell you, you CAN get it, if you work hard in advance of applying, and IF you apply!  There are at least two former-enlisted veterans in the Eli Whitney program right now, and probably more I don't know about.  So if you're a young enlisted person who is willing to work hard both in the service and academically, you have a legit shot at a school like Yale. 

To help you make the transition from the military to academia, there is the Warrior Scholar Project.  Although this is held at Yale, and it is designed to help veterans get into and be prepared for college, it is NOT designed to help get you into Yale.  You'll have to do that on your own.  But there is definitely something to be said for physically interacting with professors, students, and staff of an institution you're interested in.


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## Scotth (Mar 14, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> My GPA upon leaving NC State University (with 48 credit hours) was not good...yeah, we'll go with not good. It's obviously not indicative of my study habits/work ethic now 10 years later, but they're going to see that if I apply. Thoughts?


 
I remember at the school I went to that they had an option after 7 or 8 years you had a one time chance to go back and get a "do over" on your transcript. The intent was to give the people that weren't ready for school the first go around to erase their mistakes and start over. I don't know all the details and don't even know if it is still available because your talking about the early 90's when I was in school.? But it might be worth looking at your old schools policy to see if they have a similar program.

They put the long delay for cleaning your transcript so you couldn't just scrub your transcript and transfer to another school. It seems like you would fit that category but like I said I don't know if that is still an option or even if your school offers that.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 14, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Marauder06 , I've heard you talk about the EWSP at Yale. I fired up the Google and did a bit of looking around. I have a few questions that have gone unanswered, perhaps you could help me out, Sir.
> -What benefits does this program have to us, as Veterans?
> -My GPA upon leaving NC State University (with 48 credit hours) was not good...yeah, we'll go with not good. It's obviously not indicative of my study habits/work ethic now 10 years later, but they're going to see that if I apply. Thoughts?
> -I have a negative amount of desire to move to the NW.
> ...


 
Not sure if I answered this in PM or not, if not:

-The biggest benefit is getting into Yale.  The fact that you're a veteran sets you apart from your peers, and it gives you... I hate to use the word "gimmick" because of the negative connotations... anyway it gives you something that makes you different from the thousands of other young men and women who are vying for a spot.
-You know Yale is in the NE, not the NW, right?  
-I'm not in the program so I'm not sure how to answer the next two questions.  I do know that between the GIB, the Yellow Ribbon Project, and financial aid from Yale, vets in the program aren't shelling out anything near $23k.
-as far as your earlier GPA... it matters, but I'm guessing it's not terminal.  Have you taken any classes since leaving school?  If you haven't, start thinking about it.  The time you spent academically in the military matters too, esp. if you can get it onto some type of transcript.   You need to put up good numbers GPA-wise but your life experiences matter too.  Do you have any overseas time yet?

I'm not affiliated with the Eli Whitney Program or the Warrior Scholar Project, I just think they're great opportunities for veterans, and I do love Yale.  Best thing to do is pick up the phone and call the program administrators and see what they have to say.  Good luck!


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 14, 2013)

Just like I said, the NE...


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## Salt USMC (Mar 15, 2013)

Skrewz, I have heard from sources with placement and access that EWSP is pretty tough to get into.  If you really want an Ivy education, I'd look into Columbia's School of General Studies.  They seem to be more forgiving of past grades if you've had good life experience and good recent academic performance (A Marine friend of mine got in with a 3.0 and one deployment) and the curriculum is the exact same as a regular Columbia attendee.  You attend the same classes as regular Columbia kids, you can choose all the same majors, and you can take classes from adjacent colleges (Like Barnard if that's your thing) just like a regular student.  The dean of admissions came and talked to us this past week and the only difference, he said, was that the GS degree was in English, while the degree for the regular kids was in Latin.  He said it's because it's been their tradition (As with most schools) to issue degrees in Latin, while it's the tradition of the GS school (Founded in the 40's) to do theirs in English.  Thing is, both say COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY in big fucking letters, so is there really any difference?  I don't think so.

It's something that you should look into.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 15, 2013)

Columbia??? Hah!  I scoff at Columbia!*









*not because it isn't a good school, because it is, I just don't go there right now


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## Salt USMC (Mar 15, 2013)

It'll be my alternate for the fall.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 15, 2013)

Deathy McDeath said:


> It'll be my alternate for the fall.


... your primary, of course, being Yale?


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## SpitfireV (Mar 15, 2013)

I heard at Yale that all they do is spank people with titanium paddles (paddle technology has come far).


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## Salt USMC (Mar 15, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> ... your primary, of course, being Yale?


Of course!


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## Marauder06 (Mar 17, 2013)

This article doesn't directly tie in to this discussion, but it adds to the "yes you can!" discussion when it comes to higher education at elite schools:

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/03/17/e...-often-overlook-better-colleges.html?hp&_r=1&


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## Salt USMC (Mar 29, 2013)

So I haven't mentioned this previously, but I got the notice today that I was selected for the 2013 iteration of the Warrior Scholar Project, a two-week intensive seminar put on by the Operation Opportunity Foundation.
From the website:



> The Warrior-Scholar Project is an intensive donor-funded two-week workshop hosted at America's top universities to help facilitate veterans' transition from the military to college.
> Veterans enrolling in the Warrior-Scholar Project attend courses and discussions led by prominent professors, administrators, and current student-veterans on topics including:
> 
> Academic reading and writing
> ...


 
It is only in it's second year, so they only took 25 this yer, but it is fully donor-funded.  It takes place on Yale's campus, utilizing a few Yale professors to teach the above-mentioned skills.  It is really a great opportunity and I would encourage everyone who can to apply next time.  They have mentioned previously that they'd like to do more than one session per year, so keep an eye on the website.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 29, 2013)

Congrats, Deathy!  This program is pretty selective, you must be doing something right to get picked up for it.

This is a great program.  I know one of the founders personally, and the professors that pitch in voluntarily are some of the elite of not just Yale but academia in general.  

Every single enlisted man or woman who is thinking about going to school after they get out should apply to this program.  It's free; it teaches skills that help you make the jump from .mil to .edu; and it's run at Yale, by people who really know what they're doing.  

You don't have to want to go to Yale to do the Warrior Scholar Project.  While it's run here, it's not a training program for future Yalies, nor will the people who work in the Program help you get into Yale, at least not directly.  But there is something to be said for being face-to-face with people who have been where you want to go, and who can help you through the process.

Good luck Deathy, I hope after you complete the program you'll post a follow-up here.  And I hope many, many more ShadowSpear vets will take advantage of this program in the future.  I think the WSP is especially looking for female vets.


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## SpitfireV (Mar 30, 2013)

That's good work, Deathy.


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## SpitfireV (May 6, 2013)

In the other thread, Irish made a mention about my tongue in cheek comment about IR. Marauder06 has also done it there and I think there Deathy McDeath is lined up, too. I thought we could have a mini discussion about the benefits of it. I've finished that side of my (undergraduate) degree and Mara has done his Masters in it so I think we have good depth on the matter.

I'll start the discussion by saying that, like any degree, it is reasonably worthless without some work experience behind you. That's not an issue for all the people here and so my examples in the other thread were probably a bit redundant in that regard. I feel that an undergrad degree in it should be coupled with something more "practical" though. A MA in it is good if you want to make career movement either within your department or make a switch to another and can give you good research and essay writing skills- though hopefully your pols/IR depts will have a standard way of writing essays rather than the "I don't like it like that" hodgepoge that I had.

I found the IR theories to be a bit hit and miss. I personally don't put too much faith in them and mostly regard a lot of them as ways for lecturers to get published rather than as anything practical and applicable to the real world. Very few of them actually in totality fit to a situation except in sometimes very general ways. That said, I think IR is taught badly at my university.

Don't expect a lot of defence/mil/intel stuff since that's mostly the domain of Security Studies. I think I did one paper on security alliances and the rest were all trade and rubbish like that that I'm personally not interested in. I would recommend SecStudies if that's what flicks your switch and I wish I had done that, though it would have meant another university (though mine offers it at PostGradCit and MA level). 

Some things to think about. Mara, your thoughts?


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## Crusader74 (May 6, 2013)

I have yet to apply for the course .. I am leaning towards the IR & security studies but I do not have much information on what the course entails so I hope this leads to a knowledgeable discussion..


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## Marauder06 (May 6, 2013)

SpitfireV said:


> In the other thread, Irish made a mention about my tongue in cheek comment about IR. Marauder06 has also done it there and I think there Deathy McDeath is lined up, too. I thought we could have a mini discussion about the benefits of it. I've finished that side of my (undergraduate) degree and Mara has done his Masters in it so I think we have good depth on the matter.
> 
> I'll start the discussion by saying that, like any degree, it is reasonably worthless without some work experience behind you. That's not an issue for all the people here and so my examples in the other thread were probably a bit redundant in that regard. I feel that an undergrad degree in it should be coupled with something more "practical" though. A MA in it is good if you want to make career movement either within your department or make a switch to another and can give you good research and essay writing skills- though hopefully your pols/IR depts will have a standard way of writing essays rather than the "I don't like it like that" hodgepoge that I had.
> 
> ...


 
I agree with a lot of what you said, especially the experience part.

Like a lot of things, the answer to "is it worth it" is, "it depends."  The IR domain is kind of wide open, and depending on one's course of study, there is a lot of room for some interesting topics.  Security is one of the major subfields of IR, and many programs will allow one to specialize in that.  I found that a study of IR gave me a good understanding of things like development, economics, and history in addition to shoring up my understanding of security studies.  Most policymakers make use of one or more IR theories when they make decisions, whether they realize it or not.  Understanding those theories can help understand why people make the decisions they do, which will help you anticipate future decisions be they from blue, red, or green.  And that's a good thing.

You're probably not ever going to get rich through an IR degree, no more than you would from any of the social sciences.  But an IR degree would be pretty helpful to most military practicioners, IMO; after all, what is war except a continuation of international discourse by other means?  

Another attractive aspect of IR, especially at the graduate level, is the bewildering array of people who are attracted to the field.  This diversity of experience and thought helps both enrich the classroom experience and help network for future employment.


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## SpitfireV (May 6, 2013)

My personal feeling is that the theories for the most part are naff and that the people involved are much more important. Of course, this in itself is a theory and that makes me mad! 

Your last sentence is quite true and important I think. It speaks to how it's an important post-grad subject. You're in a good spot because I gather that a lot of your lecturers are real-world IR experienced, which obviously means they know what's practical and what's not. That now leads nicely into another point: for you guys looking at it, look at the faculty as well as the uni's overall rep. As an example, our SecStudies boss is well well well connected and IIRC has a lot of government work behind him. The IR dept, most are not. As an example, a girl I know who works for MFAT went to a public lecture on something she was working on and came out of it saying "these guys have no idea." So that's the benefit of a good, experienced, faculty. 

I'm sure I'll think of other things as they come up.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 10, 2013)

I know many of our members are contemplating going to (or going back to) college.  I would encourage all of you to swing for the fences when considering schools.  If there is a school you want to go to, apply there.  If there is someone that you really admire teaching at a certain school, apply there.  And keep applying.  You have several good things working for you- 1) your own experience, drive, and motivation; 2) funding from the GI Bill; 3) the goodwill of institutions across America who are bending over backwards to admit vets.  Capitalize on that!  And if you get turned down... try again next year, and the year after that.  Perseverance is a key attribute both in the military and in academia.  So show some during the application process.  Undergrad or grad school, it doesn't matter.  

Consider the following:
Yale's Eli Whitney program
Columbia's School of General Studies 

If you never thought about going to college, or getting a grad degree, I urge you to consider it.  I guarantee you, if you do it right it will make you and your country better.  It will make you better by exposing you to thoughts and people you might otherwise not encounter, and will likely make you more employable.  It will make your country better by exposing young, up-and-coming Americans to veterans and the role we play in society and the price we pay in the accomplishment of that role.

While he's too modest to talk much about it himself, our very own @Deathy McDeath recently got accepted to Columbia University, an Ivy League school.  in the words of our vice president, "this is a big f-ing deal."  I'm hoping that he will share the story of his journey to Columbia and offer advice to those who are seeking to follow a similar path.


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## Salt USMC (Jul 11, 2013)

Well Mara, since you asked so nicely I'd be happy to oblige.

I first learned of Columbia's opportunities for non-traditional students after receiving a notice from the Honors club (Which I had joined on a lark earlier in the semester) that the dean of admissions was going to be holding an information session at the school.  Recognizing the Columbia brand name, I thought that it'd be neat to check out, but to not get my hopes up because NOBODY gets into those schools!  Right?  Myself and another member of the school's student veteran organization attended the session.  The presenter started with an overview of the Columbia GS program, explained why it exists and how it is different from Columbia College (Which handles the right-out-of-high-school applicants), benefits and opportunities available for GS students, and cleared up some misconceptions that some people have about the school.  One of the interesting things he brought up was that, out of all four colleges within Columbia University (GS, CC, Barnard, and Fu) GS has the highest average GPA and highest graduation rate. I was very impressed!  He then opened up the floor for questions.  Most were about what it took to gain admission (The school looks for a 3.5 GPA, good essays and would like to see at least 24 credits before applying).  I stayed after, gave the dean my stats and asked what my chances would be.  He said it would be tough, but to give it a shot.  He gave out a few vouchers to waive the application fee (Which is 80$, I believe).

It was about this time that I started talking with @Marauder06 about Yale's Eli Whitney program.  He told me what he knew about the program, and put me in touch with a Navy veteran who had successfully applied and had been accepted.  This guy proved to be a wealth of information and really helped me along in the process.  Now, at this time I was perhaps midway through my very first semester of post-high school work, and I was deathly afraid of getting bad grades, and because of this I was working very hard at my studies.  I was very interested in applying to these schools, but at this stage I didn't consider my chances at either to be very realistic.  In hindsight, my chances at Yale were not realistic, but my chances at Columbia were very realistic (I've since met accepted veterans with worse stats than mine, so that take as you will).  But I figured it was worth a shot, and I had many, many people who wanted to see me succeed and could give me advice and pointers along the way.  All that I had to do was put in the effort, both at school and on the applications. 

A word on the apps: Yale's application for Eli Whitney is considerably more difficult than Columbia's.  Though they both use the "common app" format, Yale's essay prompt has a limit of 600 words and has three distinct sections for you to write about.  Columbia's app gives you an upper level of 2,000 words and is focused on your life, employment history, and what makes you a "non-traditional student".  It was basically an auto-biography so it was much easier to write that particular essay.  Imagine that; a longer essay being easier to write!  Yale's prompt consisted of:

-*What are your reasons for applying to the Eli Whitney Students Program at Yale?*
-*Tell us what personal, professional, or educational experiences influenced your decision to apply.*
-*What personal and academic goals do you think Yale can help you to reach?*

Ouch.  That turned out to be a tough one to write.  I looked to a friend of mine who was a professional editor and asked how I should approach this topic.  His basic advice was "talk to the prompt".  Great.  How do you talk about yourself while addressing three very specific, very distinct prompts?  Long story short, I ended up writing was I thought was a fairly good essay that answered the prompts thoroughly, sent it out to various people for a second, third, and fourth look, and after much revision finally submitted it.  I did roughly the same thing with the Columbia essay, but instead of looking to others for ideas first, I just spent an afternoon writing about myself and my experiences as a Marine.  Like I said before, it was easier to write because it's always easy to write about yourself!  But after review by a few folks, it was clear that my autobiography was very dry, and suffered from "military writing syndrome".  That is to say, it was long on generalities and short on details.  It seemed impersonal and detached.  There was a lot of "And then I did this and this.  From that I learned X.  After that I did X."  As my editor friend put it, it lacked the "show me, don't tell me" factor.  This was rather frustrating.  I set the essay aside and didn't touch it for about a month.

It wasn't until I talked to a friend of mine, and former Marine, who had been admitted to Columbia the previous year via a program designed to help Marines get into colleges (The Leadership Scholar Program, if you were wondering).  I had been talking his ear off about my essay troubles for a while now, but had been avoiding asking for help.  Eventually, he said "Hey, want to take a look at my essay?".  It was something some simple and obvious that I was shocked I hadn't thought of it before!  So that's precisely what I did, and WOW!  His GPA wasn't that great, but as a former citizen of Pakistan who had deployed with a MEU to the region after a series of floods devastated the country in 2010, his story was incredibly compelling.  As one of only two servicemen in the entire task force that spoke Urdu, he was called up numerous times for translation work.  It was one passage in particular, in which he had to coordinate the guard force of a military post to allow emergency vehicles to enter the city in a timely, that gave me the inspiration for the overall "theme" of my essay.  In particular, it caused me to recall a  funny moment in Afghanistan, which became the introductory paragraph to my essay:



> My first lesson in foreign relations came on a hot July day on Camp Shorabak, Afghanistan. I was part of a five-man adviser team whose mission was to train and mentor Afghan National Army (ANA) intelligence units. Part of our duties involved the escort of deceased ANA soldiers via transport plane to Kabul, so they could be transferred to their families. I was to be the escort that day, and was directed to head to the morgue to meet with the ANA drivers. Unfortunately, nobody told me where the morgue was. However, I thought my language skills might be able to assist me in this case. The basic way of asking where something is in Dari (The Afghan dialect of Persian Farsi) is to say “Kojaa --- ast?”. But as I thumbed through my Dari dictionary, I could not find the word for “Morgue”. I was perplexed. As I sat there parked by the side of the road, along walked two Afghan soldiers. I remembered that most Afghans speak a fair amount of English due to America's ten-year presence in the country, so I thought that I might be able to substitute the English word for 'morgue' and come out fine. I approached the soldiers, gave the customary greeting with my right hand over my heart, and said “Kojaa morgue ast?”. Immediately they burst out laughing and walked away. What had I done wrong? Afghans typically appreciate it when Americans attempt to speak their language and are very polite in trying to understand, but to be laughed at was something completely new. Eventually I found the morgue and completed the escort process. But the incident bothered me the entire time. When I arrived back at base I asked an interpreter, “Hey man, today I said “Kojaa morgue ast?” to some ANA and they laughed at me. What's the deal?”. A slight smile grew on his face. “Dude, 'morgue' means 'chicken' in Dari! You just asked them 'Where is the chicken?'"



I thought to myself, "This is it.  I need to talk about my experiences with foreign cultures and how they've shaped me as a person!".  I had worked with the Iraqi police, Japanese self-defense force, Malaysian air force, and extensively with the Afghan National Army.  If I could open it up with a funny culture joke and tie all my experience working with foreign militaries into a neat package, it could make for a dynamite essay.  And so, that's exactly what I did.  I removed or shortened many of the original sections that talked about my early life, and how I was a poor student, and added bits about working with foreign cultures and how I came to appreciate those around me.  Originally, I had a particularly long passage about how I had to lose a bunch of weight in order to ship to boot camp (Which was, personally, very significant to me), but I shortened it and the follow-on section about basic in order to stay around the 2,000 word limit.  While it wasn't a hard limit per se, I'd been advised that going too far over 2,000 words could cause the admissions board to lose interest.  Because of this, I cut out enough so that I ended up at a little over 2,100 words.  I finalized my thoughts, sent the essay out again for editing (This time I included my English professor since he is harsh on grammar), and waited.  I forgot to mention this, but both schools also require a supplemental essay, which can be used for a variety of things, including: clarifying app discrepancies, explaining a poor grade, or anything else you might want the board to know.  In my case, I wrote about learning the cello as an adult student (Something which I thought would show the board that I was very well-rounded).  The people I showed the essay to thought it was great, so I kept it mostly intact, minus some editing for word choice.  Both Yale and Columbia had the same requirements for the supplemental essay, so I used the same essay for both schools.  After making the final changes to my Columbia essay, I sent it off and began the great wait.

Yale got back to me first: rejected.  I had anticipated this, but it still stung.  At the time, I had not completed a full semester of college work (I submitted my interim grades to the board), and I figured that was the primary reason for rejection.  Later on when I was at Yale as part of the Warrior Scholar Project (www.operationopportunity.org for more info) I learned from the admissions director that that was, in fact, the reason.  Which was a bit of a relief, actually.  If having only 15 credits almost-finished with a 4.0 average was the one thing keeping me from Yale, then I had nothing to worry about next year!  After this slightly bad news, I waited on Columbia.  And waited.  And waited.  I confirmed with my school that my final transcript had been sent to Columbia, so they were good on their end.  Columbia, however, had not received it.  The deadline for application had already passed so I had to scramble to find a solution.  Would they accept an unofficial transcript, courtesy of a screenshot from my school's website?  Yes they would.  FINALLY!  They had the last piece of material they needed to send my package to the board!  The admissions lady let me know that I was finally up for consideration.  Oh, and on that very same day, a seperate representative from Columbia let me know that they had found my transcript, which had been accidentally sent to undergrad admissions at Columbia college.  There it had been lost in the veritable swamp of 35,000 other applicants.  Well, cool!  I ought to add that my final GPA was 15 credits with a 4.0 average, with one honors class.

Two days later, I got the call: You have been accepted to Columbia University.  Expect an admissions package in the next few days.

And so, that's my experience.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 20, 2013)

Deathy, I saw this on Facebook today and thought of you, something to keep in mind when you start school in New York :)

39 Unexpected Effects of your Ivy Education

http://www.buzzfeed.com/regajha/unexpected-effects-of-your-ivy-league-education


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## Salt USMC (Jul 23, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> Deathy, I saw this on Facebook today and thought of you, something to keep in mind when you start school in New York :)
> 
> 39 Unexpected Effects of your Ivy Education
> 
> http://www.buzzfeed.com/regajha/unexpected-effects-of-your-ivy-league-education



I love this!  Though I'm pretty sure that I've violated the first entry a few times.

It usually goes like:
Random student: So where are you planning on transferring anywhere?
Me: Well....uh....*ahem*....I've kinda been accepted to...er......columbia
RS: Whaaaaaaaaaaaaat?!  Bro how'd you do that?!  That's awesome!
Me: I..uh.....got good grades....and had a good essay, I guess
RS: Dude tell me how to get in!
Me: Well, how's your GPA?
RS: Like....2.8
Me: *facepalm*


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## TLDR20 (Jul 23, 2013)

I just got  4.0's in my first two semesters of college. Best grades I have ever gotten. Anybody who has been through a difficult school in the military will run circles around the average student.


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## theBarbarian1532 (Jul 23, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> I just got  4.0's in my first two semesters of college. Best grades I have ever gotten. Anybody who has been through a difficult school in the military will run circles around the average student.



I have to agree 100%. Granted, I attend a small college that is not the most academically challenging, the study habits I picked up from the military are leaps and bounds ahead of my college peers. Also, when in the classroom, most of these kids are still dealing with confidence issues and how to speak up and demonstarte they can communicate in front of a group of people.  Once I started attending classes on site, I was shocked at how everything was so easy.


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## theBarbarian1532 (Jul 23, 2013)

Also, I kind of scanned over the pages previous to this and I saw some post about cost of books. 1st, in my opinion, this is why the Post 9/11 is better to use because you get a $1,000 book stipend in addition the VA takes care of everything so you rarely need to worry about anything financial related.

2nd, if you choose to go another route with paying for school and books, save those reciepts because during tax season you can get a return on whatever you paid for books. Mileage also. So if your are driving 20 miles to school daily,  you can get a percentage of that gas milege returned.

I rarely buy books from my school because Amazon has worked better for me, and I usually resale them back to Amazon for a gift card or credit.

Don't forget about the Pell Grant if you need additional funds.

Another thing, when comes to Professors, I can not go into words how ratemyprofessor.com has helped me stay away from the crappy ones.


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## x SF med (Jul 24, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> I just got  4.0's in my first two semesters of college. Best grades I have ever gotten. Anybody who has been through a difficult school in the military will run circles around the average student.


 

You should have had 4.2's .... lazy bastige... What? you didn't put in the effort for the extra credit assignments?  Too busy drinking beer?   Friggin 18D's...  skating and taking it easy...  bet you didn't even have to carry a ruck or anything.

:wall::-"


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## TLDR20 (Jul 24, 2013)

x SF med said:


> You should have had 4.2's .... lazy bastige... What? you didn't put in the effort for the extra credit assignments?  Too busy drinking beer?   Friggin 18D's...  skating and taking it easy...  bet you didn't even have to carry a ruck or anything.
> 
> :wall::-"



Best I can get is a 4.0, I had over 100% in two classes.


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## x SF med (Jul 24, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> Best I can get is a 4.0, I had over 100% in two classes.


 

I bet you forgot a patient assessment or two...  that's the problem...     Nice job...  for a skeezy low life 18D with a beard and a dog... you hippy.  I expected you to have finished your degree in 2 semesters, that's about the speed of the SF Medical course.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 24, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> Best I can get is a 4.0, I had over 100% in two classes.



Yale material.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 24, 2013)

http://www.militarytimes.com/articl...Gen-James-Mattis-joins-Ivy-League-institution



> The warrior monk is climbing into an ivory tower.
> 
> Retired Gen. James Mattis, who recently stepped down as commander of U.S. Central Command, is slated to join Dartmouth College in Hanover, N.H., this fall as a distinguished visitor, college officials announced Tuesday. Mattis will serve as a senior foreign affairs fellow at the school’s John Sloan Dickey Center for International Understanding.
> 
> “I am delighted that Gen. Mattis is joining us this fall,” said Daniel Benjamin, director of the center. “I worked closely with Jim Mattis while I was in government and I know him to be one of the deepest military thinkers and strongest leaders of his generation.”



Dartmouth?  Seriously?  I had to read it twice to make sure it wasn't a Duffleblog article.


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## 8654Maine (Jul 26, 2013)

Now that is news.  Looks like he will also spend some time @ Stanford as well.


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## Viper1 (Aug 12, 2013)

I've decided to quite mucking about and use my tuition assistance for a Master's Degree.  I'm still striving to obtain a graduate degree through an ILE program but that is at least two years away.  Here are some programs I am looking at:

http://www.uncp.edu/pa/mpa/ (Public Administration)
http://www.uncp.edu/mba/ (Business Administration)
http://online.norwich.edu/degree-programs/masters/master-science-leadership
http://online.norwich.edu/degree-programs/masters/master-arts-diplomacy


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## ZmanTX (Aug 12, 2013)

Viper1 said:


> I've decided to quite mucking about and use my tuition assistance for a Master's Degree.  I'm still striving to obtain a graduate degree through an ILE program but that is at least two years awayy



If you don't mind me asking what does the ILE stand for? Sorry if it is a stupid question just wondering what that is in comparison to your links that you provided.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 12, 2013)

Zach M said:


> If you don't mind me asking what does the ILE stand for? Sorry if it is a stupid question just wondering what that is in comparison to your links that you provided.


Use the fucking Google.  If you were sorry about it being a stupid question, you would have taken 18 seconds to look it up yourself vice asking the question.


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## ZmanTX (Aug 12, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Use the fucking Google.  If you were sorry about it being a stupid question, you would have taken 18 seconds to look it up yourself vice asking the question.


_Integrated Language Environment..._

Right after I posted that that was the first placed I looked, thank you for the advice though. Just wanted to make sure it was the same.


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## Marauder06 (Aug 12, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Use the fucking Google.  If you were sorry about it being a stupid question, you would have taken 18 seconds to look it up yourself vice asking the question.



ILE is a common acronym in the Army, but Googling it casts a pretty wide net unless you really neck down the search parameters.  If you search for ILE here on the site, you get a "too common" error.



Zach M said:


> If you don't mind me asking what does the ILE stand for? Sorry if it is a stupid question just wondering what that is in comparison to your links that you provided.



ILE in this context means intermediate level education, which is the standard, mid-career course all Army officers are expected to attend.  Many if not most consider it a waste of time.


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## AWP (Aug 12, 2013)

You aren't going to find ILE on Google without combining it with "Army," "military," or "education." ILE by it's lonesome, "school" and "program" point you in the wrong direction.

I'm all for using Google and hammering people who don't search first, but certain acronyms require a bit of sleuthing or persistence. The less info you have to work with the harder the search.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 12, 2013)

I googled "ILE college" and came up with Intermediate Level Education.
I'm finished with my de-railing.  Apologies all.


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## 8654Maine (Aug 13, 2013)

Good for manning up, Skrewz.


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## Marine0311 (Aug 13, 2013)

I will finish my online degree in Nov.

My experince: It sucks. It will be a degree and look cool on paper. If you can go to a B/M school do so and sit in a classroom, join clubs and get the whole "college experience". I did learn one or two things along the way.

With getting a degree I am looking to move states and/or switch career fields in addition to getting a level up on my competition when applying to jobs.


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 14, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> You aren't going to find ILE on Google without combining it with "Army," "military," or "education." ILE by it's lonesome, "school" and "program" point you in the wrong direction.
> 
> I'm all for using Google and hammering people who don't search first, but certain acronyms require a bit of sleuthing or persistence. The less info you have to work with the harder the search.


 
That's why you search with Bing!

I finished my degree last year and still have enough left in the fund for a Master's degree.  That coupled with othere forms of continued training and certifications make me fairly valuable in my field.  Too many folks in the mil and civie world stagnate and wonder why they can't promote, can't get a certain job, or why their lives suck in general in regards to work.  If you don't train and educate yourself, you really limit what and where you can go.


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## Salt USMC (Aug 14, 2013)

@Marine0311 any grad school plans?


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## Crusader74 (Aug 14, 2013)

I am in the process of applying.. nearly there. Have to submit a tax clearance cert  with a letter from my Unit stating I've been in full time employment for the past three years... 

Then its a waiting game.


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## Marine0311 (Aug 14, 2013)

Deathy McDeath said:


> @Marine0311 any grad school plans?



Yes

I either will attend a real B/M school to get a B.A that I am proud of or attend a B/M to get a Masters. I also need to return to a community college level to brush up on my reading, writing and math skills.


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## Marauder06 (Aug 14, 2013)

Marine0311 said:


> Yes
> 
> I either will attend a real B/M school to get a B.A that I am proud of or attend a B/M to get a Masters. I also need to return to a community college level to* brush up on my reading, writing and math skills*.



You should consider Yale's Warrior Scholar project, that's pretty much exactly what it's for.  

I think.

You should ask @Deathy McDeath he actually went through the course.


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## Salt USMC (Aug 15, 2013)

@Marine0311 I talked with the guy who runs the WSP, and he said that as long as you explain in your app what your plans are in a clear manner, they will consider you.  Whether that be the Bachelor or Masters program.  They will, however, consider you an "unusual candidate" since you already have your degree.  I think it's definitely something you ought to check out next year.  They've expanded the program beyond just Yale.  The plan is to open up a "branch", if you will, at UMich and Harvard next year, which will greatly expand the number of veterans who can attend.

I will say that it can be a bit intimidating going from the military to whatever-college to Yale (even if it is for just two weeks), but I think you'll find that you adjust after a little while.  I think everyone has the proper academic chops for it, they just need to be pushed a little bit.


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## Marine0311 (Aug 15, 2013)

Deathy McDeath said:


> @Marine0311 I talked with the guy who runs the WSP, and he said that as long as you explain in your app what your plans are in a clear manner, they will consider you.  Whether that be the Bachelor or Masters program.  They will, however, consider you an "unusual candidate" since you already have your degree.  I think it's definitely something you ought to check out next year.  They've expanded the program beyond just Yale.  The plan is to open up a "branch", if you will, at UMich and Harvard next year, which will greatly expand the number of veterans who can attend.
> 
> I will say that it can be a bit intimidating going from the military to whatever-college to Yale (even if it is for just two weeks), but I think you'll find that you adjust after a little while.  I think everyone has the proper academic chops for it, they just need to be pushed a little bit.



Thank you very much for the intel!


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## Marauder06 (Aug 15, 2013)

If you decide it's something you want to do, I'll put a word in with the guy who runs the program.

Maybe that will be helpful, maybe it won't.


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## Marine0311 (Aug 15, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> If you decide it's something you want to do, I'll put a word in with the guy who runs the program.
> 
> Maybe that will be helpful, maybe it won't.



I think it will given your Dark Power


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## Marauder06 (Aug 15, 2013)

Well, 100% of the people I've recommended for the program got in, and all of them he successfully completed the course, so that's a pretty good success rate in my book.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 19, 2013)

These links offer insight into transfer stuff for Veterans, some are MOS dependent.
Assosciates:
http://www.soc.aascu.org/dnstools/SOCAD2Coll.html

Bachelors:

http://www.soc.aascu.org/dnstools/SOCAD4Coll.html


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## Marauder06 (Oct 22, 2013)

For those of you interested in business, Norwich University (famous for being the nation's first ROTC program) now has an online MBA program.

http://mba.norwich.edu/lp-mba-milit...Facebook&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Military


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## AWP (Oct 22, 2013)

Looking through the thread at some older posts, I'm 5 classes/ 2 semesters shy of my B.S. in Applied Computer Science.

Textbooks: Take the ISBN of the book and plug it into a search engine. You may be surprised at how many vendors carry that book. You can also find e-books for many subjects now. So far, Textbooks.com, Half.com, and even Amazon have been good sources. Shop around.

Not all e-books are created equal. Some will suck and the beauty is that you won't know it until you've purchased said book. What do I mean by "suck?" Improperly indexed so the e-book's Search feature doesn't work. That can make looking for a specific term rather painful. Overall, I'm happy with e-books, particularly here in Afghanistan.

As to online vs. brick-and-mortar classes: Just about everything in this thread is still valid. Is the school accredited? What field are you working towards? Your age and experience? Lots of factors are involved and there is no one right or wrong answer.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 22, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> Looking through the thread at some older posts, I'm 5 classes/ 2 semesters shy of my B.S. in Applied Computer Science.
> 
> Textbooks: Take the ISBN of the book and plug it into a search engine. You may be surprised at how many vendors carry that book. You can also find e-books for many subjects now. So far, Textbooks.com, Half.com, and even Amazon have been good sources. Shop around.
> 
> ...



Congratulations brother.  With all your time in Afghanistan, you can probably get constructive credit for a PhD ;)


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## AWP (Oct 22, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> Congratulations brother.  With all your time in Afghanistan, you can probably get constructive credit for a PhD ;)


 
Ha! I'm done once my degree is finished. I'm looking at some IT certs, probably testing for my CCNA in Dec., but going to the "next level" in education isn't for me.


----------



## x SF med (Oct 22, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> Ha! I'm done once my degree is finished. I'm looking at some IT certs, probably testing for my CCNA in Dec., but going to the "next level" in education isn't for me.


 
Bleh...  I have to get certs for my job... MCSA for SQL Server- 3 tests... and using the eval version of SQL Server2012 I have 180 days to get up to speed for tests 70-471,-472,-473...


----------



## AWP (Oct 23, 2013)

x SF med said:


> Bleh...  I have to get certs for my job... MCSA for SQL Server- 3 tests... and using the eval version of SQL Server2012 I have 180 days to get up to speed for tests 70-471,-472,-473...


 
I hate the cert racket and have fought it forever, but I have to do what's best, not what I agree with.


----------



## comrade-z (Oct 23, 2013)

What other certs do you guys have/looking to get?  I've been taking classes/self-studying, but foolishly haven't been taking the tests as I go along - woops.  Currently looking at the basic set of CompTIA X+ tests, as well as CCNA and CEH so far.


----------



## AWP (Oct 23, 2013)

comrade-z said:


> What other certs do you guys have/looking to get?  I've been taking classes/self-studying, but foolishly haven't been taking the tests as I go along - woops.  Currently looking at the basic set of CompTIA X+ tests, as well as CCNA and CEH so far.


 
Just my Security+ and that was a DoD requirement. I'll make a run at my CCNA and then some MS certs later. I'm only doing it to make myself more marketable.


----------



## comrade-z (Oct 24, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> Just my Security+ and that was a DoD requirement. I'll make a run at my CCNA and then some MS certs later. I'm only doing it to make myself more marketable.



Gotcha.  Yeah, certs do seem pretty well geared for that.  I usually hate standardized tests, but everything I've looked at so far looks to do a pretty decent job in terms of showing "if you have this cert, you can do x".


----------



## dirtmover (Nov 1, 2013)

Has anyone had any gone for their Law degree.  That's what I am leaning towards.  Also has anyone heard of anyone getting into a decent law school with a degree from an online institution?


----------



## TLDR20 (Nov 1, 2013)

dirtmover said:


> Has anyone had any gone for their Law degree.  That's what I am leaning towards.  Also has anyone heard of anyone getting into a decent law school with a degree from an online institution?



A for profit school? I doubt it, what do you mean decent?


----------



## dirtmover (Nov 1, 2013)

Schools like University of Maryland online.  I know getting a good law school i.e. top 15 depends on your GPA and LSAT scores.  Just wanted o know if anyone had heard of someone breaking in to  top 15 with comparable GPA and LSAT score but an online undergraduate degree.


----------



## 8654Maine (Nov 1, 2013)

I asked my brother about the online undergraduate degree and law school.  The dummy decided to get a JD/MBA after drinking his way thru undergrad.

He couldn't think of any concrete examples.

Fuck it.  Ace the LSAT and apply.


----------



## LogDog0402 (Nov 4, 2013)

dirtmover said:


> Has anyone had any gone for their Law degree.  That's what I am leaning towards.  Also has anyone heard of anyone getting into a decent law school with a degree from an online institution?




Online Law degrees are not approved or accreddited by the American Bar Association.  California is the only state that allows for unaccreddited law school graduates to sit for the Bar Exam.  It's better to take the LSAT and go to a real law school than online if you want to practice law somewhere other than California.


----------



## dirtmover (Nov 6, 2013)

I did not mean go to law school online.  I wanted to know if law schools frowned upon online under graduate degrees or they just care about your GPA and LSAT score.


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## LogDog0402 (Nov 6, 2013)

dirtmover said:


> I did not mean go to law school online.  I wanted to know if law schools frowned upon online under graduate degrees or they just care about your GPA and LSAT score.



Got it.  From the research I did it's all about GPA and LSAT.  Tier 1 law schools may frown at online education but if you have a high GPA and a 170+ on the LSAT you should be ok.  Georgetown seemed to be more accepting of non-traditional students and it is a top 10 law school.  Good luck in your search.  I chose not to pursue a law degree after months of research by the way, but thats just me.  I want the education, not the debt.


----------



## dirtmover (Nov 6, 2013)

Thanks for the insight.  I agree with you about the debt.  I figure if I can get a scholarship and with the GI BILL I should graduate with little to no debt.  It will be a while though I still have somethings that I want to accomplish in the Army to include finishing my BA.


----------



## policemedic (Nov 6, 2013)

Penn's applicant review process is free form and very holistic. The entire file is examined by a room full of decision makers and a yea/nay is decided upon. 

GPA and other factors--such as the LSAT--are considered along with what might be determined intangibles. 

A degree from a properly accredited online school such as AMU will not prevent admission to Penn.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 27, 2013)

http://www.slate.com/articles/life/...eague_schools_ranking_veteran_enrollment.html



> If you can believe it, the number of undergraduate veterans at the nation’s self-proclaimed most highly selective colleges is significantly fewer than we reported in 2011. The total this year: 168*. The * is because, again, too many of these colleges, the 31 invitation-only members of the Consortium on Financing Higher Education (COFHE), don’t know. The number may bounce again.
> 
> “Disgraceful and absurd” is what I called the 232 total veterans in 2011. By comparison, the total number of veterans and dependents of veterans using the Post-9/11 GI Bill rose from 555,329 students in 2011 to 646,302 in 2012. From 232 to 174 to 168—with the nation at war and 118,784 total undergraduate seats at the 31 COFHE colleges.



This article's message is good, but the numbers are way off.  For example, the article cites only two veterans at Yale; there were and are dozens of veterans at Yale.

However, all of these schools could benefit from the collective wisdom of more veterans.  So all of you out there looking for schools, don't rule out the Ivy League.  "I can't get admitted" yes you can.  "There's nothing but a bunch of anti-military hippies at these schools" yeah I thought that too, until I went to one.  "I can't afford it" two words:  financial aid.  "I wouldn't fit it" lol, dude have you SEEN these campuses?  There's no one that "can't fit it" if they have a minimum level of social skills.  "It's too hard" no really, if you work your ass off, which you should be doing in any school you attend.

All out of excuses now?  Good, then check out the Warrior Scholar Project and Yale's Eli Whitney Program, and get thee to the Ivy League!


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## CDG (Nov 27, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> http://www.slate.com/articles/life/...eague_schools_ranking_veteran_enrollment.html
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would be very interested in the challenge.  I just don't see it working with my projected schedule.


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## policemedic (Nov 27, 2013)

Speaking of the Ivy League, I'll throw out an offer good for a guided tour of the University of Pennsylvania (and the watering holes that surround it) to any vetted member.  Penn has many veterans in its classes.


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## 8654Maine (Nov 28, 2013)

If one is serious about Cornell, Brown, or Dartmouth, let me know.  They like diversity, including vets.


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## Viper1 (Feb 9, 2014)

Well I made the plunge, inspired by this thread in part, to better myself before the Army required ILE.  I've applied for the Norwich University Online Master of Arts in Diplomacy.  The application process was quite easy and trouble-free.  Post 9/11 GI Bill is picking up the entire tab.  I should know if I've been accepted by the end of the next week.  Start date: 03 March.  Graduation date: September 2015.

http://online.norwich.edu/degree-programs/masters/master-arts-diplomacy/overview


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 9, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> Well I made the plunge, inspired by this thread in part, to better myself before the Army required ILE.  I've applied for the Norwich University Online Master of Arts in Diplomacy.  The application process was quite easy and trouble-free.  Post 9/11 GI Bill is picking up the entire tab.  I should know if I've been accepted by the end of the next week.  Start date: 03 March.  Graduation date: o/a July 2015.
> 
> http://online.norwich.edu/degree-programs/masters/master-arts-diplomacy/overview



My best friend did that program and he loved it.


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## policemedic (Feb 9, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> Well I made the plunge, inspired by this thread in part, to better myself before the Army required ILE.  I've applied for the Norwich University Online Master of Arts in Diplomacy.  The application process was quite easy and trouble-free.  Post 9/11 GI Bill is picking up the entire tab.  I should know if I've been accepted by the end of the next week.  Start date: 03 March.  Graduation date: o/a July 2015.
> 
> http://online.norwich.edu/degree-programs/masters/master-arts-diplomacy/overview


 
That's awesome!  It's great that you're starting so soon.  I've applied to an MPA program at Penn, but they won't even look at any application until the application deadline passes and that's in June. 

#Waitingsucks.


----------



## ZmanTX (Feb 9, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> Well I made the plunge, inspired by this thread in part, to better myself before the Army required ILE.  I've applied for the Norwich University Online Master of Arts in Diplomacy.  The application process was quite easy and trouble-free.  Post 9/11 GI Bill is picking up the entire tab.  I should know if I've been accepted by the end of the next week.  Start date: 03 March.  Graduation date: o/a July 2015.
> 
> http://online.norwich.edu/degree-programs/masters/master-arts-diplomacy/overview



Congrats! And good luck!


----------



## Chris16 (Feb 14, 2014)

Given that I am just a sophomore in high-school, I still want to further my education and have a plan to do so. I'm not sure if any members are familiar with the Running Start program for high-schoolers (it might have a different name depending on the state), it's where I would go to one of the community colleges, and take college classes instead of high-school classes for my Junior and Senior year. Thus it would put me on track for my High school diploma and an AA degree once I graduate high-school. Also those credits earned would transfer to any of the in-state 4-year colleges (depends on which out of state colleges). Of course I still have to test to get in (in upcoming March), so that's what I'm focused on. I was just curious if anyone on here did something similar, or what your thoughts on it are ?


----------



## 0699 (Feb 14, 2014)

Chris16 said:


> Given that I am just a sophomore in high-school, I still want to further my education and have a plan to do so. I'm not sure if any members are familiar with the Running Start program for high-schoolers (it might have a different name depending on the state), it's where I would go to one of the community colleges, and take college classes instead of high-school classes for my Junior and Senior year. Thus it would put me on track for my High school diploma and an AA degree once I graduate high-school. Also those credits earned would transfer to any of the in-state 4-year colleges (depends on which out of state colleges). Of course I still have to test to get in (in upcoming March), so that's what I'm focused on. I was just curious if anyone on here did something similar, or what your thoughts on it are ?


 
I have not done anything similar; I'm just a dumb jarhead.  But I do have some advice...

Focus on being a "kid".  Enjoy high school.  Adulthood will come soon enough.  Sure, take honors courses and such, but don't wory about all the college stuff.  Here's what you need to do to succeed in high school and prepare yourself for life.

1) Do well in school.  Get the best grades you can.
2) Stay physically fit.  Play sports.
3) Stay away from drugs and alcohol.
4) Don't let anyone talk you into anything.
5) Don't do stuff you KNOW is wrong.

This will put you ahead of 97% of your peers.

Lastly, get off the internet.  Quit talking to a bunch of old people and go chase some girls.  Play football with your friends.  Hell, get in some GTA time.  Go out in the woods and do stupid stuff.


----------



## Kheenbish (Feb 14, 2014)

Chris16 said:


> Given that I am just a sophomore in high-school, I still want to further my education and have a plan to do so. I'm not sure if any members are familiar with the Running Start program for high-schoolers (it might have a different name depending on the state), it's where I would go to one of the community colleges, and take college classes instead of high-school classes for my Junior and Senior year. Thus it would put me on track for my High school diploma and an AA degree once I graduate high-school. Also those credits earned would transfer to any of the in-state 4-year colleges (depends on which out of state colleges). Of course I still have to test to get in (in upcoming March), so that's what I'm focused on. I was just curious if anyone on here did something similar, or what your thoughts on it are ?


 
I did this for my Senior year when I was in high school. It's a good way to get started on your pre-req's for college and get them out of the way. I also went to a technical college during HS for a journyman in electrician, don't do anything an electrician does now, but hey it's a good tool to have.


----------



## SkrewzLoose (Feb 14, 2014)

Why are people in such a hurry to get through, what should be, some of the best times of their lives?


----------



## 0699 (Feb 14, 2014)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Why are people in such a hurry to get through, what should be, some of the best times of their lives?


 
Because they don't know any better.  They'll learn, like we all do, then it'll be too late, like it always is.


----------



## Crusader74 (Feb 20, 2014)

International Relations Theory & International Law modules complete for my Masters .. A 2.2 grade on each.. 

I'm happy with that but I intend to hopefully push it up.  Next two modules are Terrorism and politics of the ME and North Africa..


----------



## Poetic_Mind (Feb 27, 2014)

It didn't take very long, but less than a year of commissioning, I began my MA in International Relations. I was really shocked when I learned that the Army could offer college degrees on-post that were in a real classroom setting with real professors. It was too tempting to not at least try a course or two while working.

Funny, but I wouldn't have ever made such a move without my Battery Commander suggesting I should get my MA in the Army as soon as possible. In about a month I'll really know how tough this will be with regular classes taking up my weekends...only pre-class assignments until then. 

V/R,
PM


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 27, 2014)

Poetic_Mind said:


> It didn't take very long, but less than a year of commissioning, I began my MA in International Relations. I was really shocked when I learned that the Army could offer college degrees on-post that were in a real classroom setting with real professors. It was too tempting to not at least try a course or two while working.
> 
> Funny, but I wouldn't have ever made such a move without my Battery Commander suggesting I should get my MA in the Army as soon as possible. In about a month I'll really know how tough this will be with regular classes taking up my weekends...only pre-class assignments until then.
> 
> ...



Stick with it, it's worthwhile.

And there are probably a couple of people here on the site that can help you with IR theory ;)


----------



## mac21 (Feb 27, 2014)

I'm looking to transfer for Fall 2015 and should take the ACT/SAT to get into some higher level schools. What kinds of things have you guys done to prep for them?


----------



## CDG (Feb 28, 2014)

After months of back and forth with the VA and AMU, I finally got all the admin shit taken care of and was able to register for classes.  Working on a Bachelor's in International Relations with a focus on Globalization and Human Security.  Some of my credits from my previous college transferred over, so I "only" need 70 to graduate.


----------



## TLDR20 (Feb 28, 2014)

mac21 said:


> I'm looking to transfer for Fall 2015 and should take the ACT/SAT to get into some higher level schools. What kinds of things have you guys done to prep for them?



Go to a community college, and then transfer, then you don't need to take either test and you knock out credits.


----------



## Poetic_Mind (Feb 28, 2014)

CDG said:


> After months of back and forth with the VA and AMU, I finally got all the admin shit taken care of and was able to register for classes.  Working on a Bachelor's in International Relations with a focus on Globalization and Human Security.  Some of my credits from my previous college transferred over, so I "only" need 70 to graduate.



Globalization/Security was actually my focus on my BA in IR.


----------



## 0699 (Feb 28, 2014)

Poetic_Mind said:


> It didn't take very long, but less than a year of commissioning, I began my MA in International Relations. I was really shocked when I learned that the Army could offer college degrees on-post that were in a real classroom setting with real professors. It was too tempting to not at least try a course or two while working.
> 
> Funny, but I wouldn't have ever made such a move without my Battery Commander suggesting I should get my MA in the Army as soon as possible. In about a month I'll really know how tough this will be with regular classes taking up my weekends...only pre-class assignments until then.
> 
> ...


 
Webster?


----------



## RustyShackleford (Feb 28, 2014)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Why are people in such a hurry to get through, what should be, some of the best times of their lives?


 
Because it is what is jammed down kids throats these days.  Hell, when I was taking English 101 after ETSing there were HS kids in my class.  Gots to cram in all the core classes early so you can knock out that BS in three years, rack up a ton of debt, and start into the workforce! Yay!


----------



## Viper1 (Feb 28, 2014)

Poetic_Mind said:


> It didn't take very long, but less than a year of commissioning, I began my MA in International Relations. I was really shocked when I learned that the Army could offer college degrees on-post that were in a real classroom setting with real professors. It was too tempting to not at least try a course or two while working.
> 
> Funny, but I wouldn't have ever made such a move without my Battery Commander suggesting I should get my MA in the Army as soon as possible. In about a month I'll really know how tough this will be with regular classes taking up my weekends...only pre-class assignments until then.
> 
> ...


Stick with it. Education is going to become an increasingly valuable tool by which we are measured in service. Let me know how it goes! 
Being a lifelong learner is a good way to live, especially outside of the classroom. I set up my hi-fi system last year through self-study and asking around and I loved learning about how good sound works. Well done PM!


----------



## Poetic_Mind (Feb 28, 2014)

0699 said:


> Webster?



Negative, I thought about Webster, but I took the University of Oklahoma's program instead, if only because people aren't confused about OU being legit. I was afraid I made my decision on name alone; however, the program looks really good. Webster has a lot more flexibility though and is probably more balanced. My classes total over 15 hours of class time over each weekend for two weekends per class. That is a lot of time taken away from my weekends! I know Webster is a little more forgiving in terms of their class structure.


----------



## RustyShackleford (Feb 28, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> Stick with it. Education is going to become an increasingly valuable tool by which we are measured in service. Let me know how it goes!
> Being a lifelong learner is a good way to live, especially outside of the classroom. I set up my hi-fi system last year through self-study and asking around and I loved learning about how good sound works. Well done PM!


It's really surprising as to how many people don't feel this way.  I finished a BA at 35 years old just because I could and occasionally kick around the idea of knocking out either a masters certificate or graduate degree as I have about a year of the post 9/11 GI bill left.


----------



## 0699 (Feb 28, 2014)

Poetic_Mind said:


> Negative, I thought about Webster, but I took the University of Oklahoma's program instead, if only because people aren't confused about OU being legit. I was afraid I made my decision on name alone; however, the program looks really good. Webster has a lot more flexibility though and is probably more balanced. My classes total over 15 hours of class time over each weekend for two weekends per class. That is a lot of time taken away from my weekends! I know Webster is a little more forgiving in terms of their class structure.


 
Ah.  Webster had the only on-base MA in IR at Camp Lejeune, so that's what sprang to mind.  OU's a good choice.  The reality is, name does make a difference; why else would people go to Harvard?


----------



## 0699 (Feb 28, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> Stick with it. Education is going to become an increasingly valuable tool by which we are measured in service. Let me know how it goes!
> Being a lifelong learner is a good way to live, especially outside of the classroom. *I set up my hi-fi system last year through self-study* and asking around and I loved learning about how good sound works. Well done PM!


1974 called. They want their "hi-fi" system back... 


RustyShackleford said:


> It's really surprising as to how many people don't feel this way. I finished a BA at 35 years old just because I could and occasionally kick around the idea of knocking out either a masters certificate or graduate degree as I have about a year of the post 9/11 GI bill left.


I finished my BA in History at 41 using just TA and I just got my 100% eligibile, 36-month letter from the VA. I am about ready to follow Viper 1's lead, only history instead of diplomacy. Nice that I've got someone to cheat off. :-"

RANT: I WOULD PASS MY VA ON TO MY CHILDREN, BUT I RETIRED 6 MONTHS TOO EARLY!!!!!! :wall: :wall:


----------



## RustyShackleford (Feb 28, 2014)

0699 said:


> RANT: I WOULD PASS MY VA ON TO MY CHILDREN, BUT I RETIRED 6 MONTHS TOO EARLY!!!!!! :wall: :wall:



Yeah, I can't transfer mine either since I'm not a retiree!  Since that last years worth of education is gonna go to wastes, well...


----------



## 0699 (Feb 28, 2014)

RustyShackleford said:


> Yeah, I can't transfer mine either since I'm not a retiree!  Since that last years worth of education is gonna go to wastes, well...


 
Pilot's license?  Karate instructor?


----------



## RustyShackleford (Feb 28, 2014)

0699 said:


> Pilot's license?  Karate instructor?



You never know what I'll come up with!


----------



## Chopstick (Feb 28, 2014)

RustyShackleford said:


> You never know what I'll come up with!


http://www.pittsburghbartendingschool.com/


----------



## Chopstick (Feb 28, 2014)

@RustyShackleford I think Pittsburgh Bartending School needs to rephrase their job placement statement. 



> Our Elite Bartending School in Pittsburgh also has a local job placement assistance program that has placed alumni *behind bars* throughout Pittsburgh and the western Pennsylvania region.


----------



## RustyShackleford (Feb 28, 2014)

Well, that would give me something to do in my free time!


----------



## Chopstick (Feb 28, 2014)

RustyShackleford said:


> Well, that would give me something to do in my free time!


Well if you find yourself at the ACJ, Im told they have an excellent law library for the inmates to utilize!


----------



## RustyShackleford (Feb 28, 2014)

Chopstick said:


> Well if you find yourself at the ACJ, Im told they have an excellent law library for the inmates to utilize!


Not surprised.  I bet they house ICE prisoners too.


----------



## Chopstick (Feb 28, 2014)

RustyShackleford said:


> Not surprised.  I bet they house ICE prisoners too.


Yes, actually they do.  You could study languages!


----------



## RustyShackleford (Feb 28, 2014)

Chopstick said:


> Yes, actually they do.  You could study languages!


Hence the reason for the extensive law library!


----------



## Viper1 (Mar 1, 2014)

0699 said:


> 1974 called. They want their "hi-fi" system back...
> 
> I finished my BA in History at 41 using just TA and I just got my 100% eligibile, 36-month letter from the VA. I am about ready to follow Viper 1's lead, only history instead of diplomacy. Nice that I've got someone to cheat off. :-"
> 
> RANT: I WOULD PASS MY VA ON TO MY CHILDREN, BUT I RETIRED 6 MONTHS TOO EARLY!!!!!! :wall: :wall:



Congrats and good luck!  What university are you going through?


----------



## Salt USMC (Mar 2, 2014)

mac21 said:


> I'm looking to transfer for Fall 2015 and should take the ACT/SAT to get into some higher level schools. What kinds of things have you guys done to prep for them?


I purchased the ACT red book from the ACT site after I registered for the test.  It's supposed to be the best prep for the actual test.  If you're in school right now, you can see if the library has old versions of the Princeton Review or Kaplan books.  I ended up getting a score of 30, which is decent.  I took the SAT about two months after taking the SAT, and didn't bother to study for it, and ended up getting a score of 2010 (which is pretty much equivalent to my ACT score).



TLDR20 said:


> Go to a community college, and then transfer, then you don't need to take either test and you knock out credits.


You can do this, but it's really only applicable to state schools.  If @mac21 wants to get into some "higher level schools", as he put it, then either the SAT or ACT will be required.


----------



## mac21 (Mar 2, 2014)

Deathy McDeath said:


> You can do this, but it's really only applicable to state schools.  If @mac21 wants to get into some "higher level schools", as he put it, then either the SAT or ACT will be required.



I'm shooting for some of the private schools in my area. If they don't work out, I'm not ashamed of going to a state school.

In high school, I got a ~3.2 GPA and a 23 on the ACT, so I certainly don't have anything going for my right now that can't be changed with some hard work.


----------



## Salt USMC (Mar 3, 2014)

mac21 said:


> I'm shooting for some of the private schools in my area. If they don't work out, I'm not ashamed of going to a state school.
> 
> In high school, I got a ~3.2 GPA and a 23 on the ACT, so I certainly don't have anything going for my right now that can't be changed with some hard work.


Hey man, you're already ahead of where I was.  I graduated with a 2.14 GPA and 25 or 26 on the ACT, and a 1280 SAT (old scale).  If you start out at a CC you'll likely find your coursework to be really, really easy.


----------



## 0699 (Mar 3, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> Congrats and good luck!  What university are you going through?


 
Norwich, if I can get into the Yellow Ribbon Program.  I can't justify spending any money on a graduate degree I don't need, when I have two kids in college.


----------



## mac21 (Mar 3, 2014)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Hey man, you're already ahead of where I was.  I graduated with a 2.14 GPA and 25 or 26 on the ACT, and a 1280 SAT (old scale).  If you start out at a CC you'll likely find your coursework to be really, really easy.



That's what I'm doing right now. I'm in my 3rd semester with a pretty good GPA. And yes, the coursework is fairly easy.


----------



## Pajco (Apr 3, 2014)

Hi all, I don't post much on here but this is definitely a thread I can contribute to. As a word of advice to all those pursuing a military career but aren't sure if college is for them, here's my advice-Give college one year. Im at Allegheny College which is a rigorous college, and I was by no means a scholar but I managed to get in Allegheny because of football. The first semester I absolutely hated it, the people were rude, the academics were tough but this next semester, I can't thank my parents enough for persuading me to go to college first. Between football and the academics, I manage to get a mental and physical workout in every day. It has helped me mature so much and for those looking to go spec ops, look at it as a way to mature yourself and physically prepare yourself while you're here. It is worth it to have a degree and from what I've read from other guys on here, it isn't the most convenient to pursue a degree once you get a job and get out in the real world to find out you have a million other things to worry about as well. So just give it a year guys, if for some reason you decide you really don't want to pursue a degree at the moment that's fine. Coming from someone pursuing a career in NSW or MARSOC, its understandable you want to get out and do all the cool guy stuff, trust me I was in your shoes. College though, will open so many doors for you and having prior military if you decide to leave will give you so many opportunities. Just my .02 cents, and whatever you decide, work your ass off and reach your dreams. Pajco


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## KillerManofLeisure (Mar 17, 2015)

I have a fair amount of brick & mortar educational experience with a BS (History / Political Science) from Northwestern and a MBA from Fairfield. I'm currently working on my MA in National Security Studies at AMU, which is my first experience at distance learning. Although I was accepted at Johns Hopkins and also looked at several other schools, I chose AMU because nearly every professor I researched had "hands-on" experience in their field. For example, my professor for Special Operations was a retired MG who'd formerly headed the Army's JFK School of Irregular Warfare, and been a Deputy Comander at SOCOM. I'm five course from completion and I'm well-satisfied. The academic level is better than expected. My only disappointment is the interpersonal dynamic is much more forced than if your in a classroom, since you have to make comments on every week's assignment. Often, I feel people are regurgitating other comments just to say something.


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## AWP (Mar 17, 2015)

James George said:


> Often, I feel people are regurgitating other comments just to say something.


 
That is a HUGE problem in online courses. I can think of 3 or 4 members, myself included, who've experienced this time and time again. I wrapped up my BS in Computer Science last March and the weekly discussions were the single most painful portion of the degree.


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## KillerManofLeisure (Mar 17, 2015)

mac21 said:


> I'm shooting for some of the private schools in my area. If they don't work out, I'm not ashamed of going to a state school.
> 
> In high school, I got a ~3.2 GPA and a 23 on the ACT, so I certainly don't have anything going for my right now that can't be changed with some hard work.



Mac21: The college selection process is a tricky thing. However, it's easier if you know what you want to study. Personally, I wouldn't base it on private/state school basis. For example, many people have a bias against state "directional" schools. Still, Southern Illinois University had a great communications school, putting loads of people into national broadcasting and journalism positions.  Illinois Institute of Technology would be a great alternative if you can't afford Northwestern's McCormick School of Engineering (both have NROTC programs). Or a Jesuit college might be your choice if you want to study philosophy.


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## 0699 (Mar 17, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> That is a HUGE problem in online courses. I can think of 3 or 4 members, myself included, who've experienced this time and time again. I wrapped up my BS in Computer Science last March and the weekly discussions were the single most painful portion of the degree.


 
I agree with your point.


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## Viper1 (Jul 2, 2015)

Viper1 said:


> Well I made the plunge, inspired by this thread in part, to better myself before the Army required ILE.  I've applied for the Norwich University Online Master of Arts in Diplomacy.  The application process was quite easy and trouble-free.  Post 9/11 GI Bill is picking up the entire tab.  I should know if I've been accepted by the end of the next week.  Start date: 03 March.  Graduation date: September 2015.
> 
> http://online.norwich.edu/degree-programs/masters/master-arts-diplomacy/overview



Well folks, six more weeks of class and I'm officially done.  I completed the Residency week and walked during graduation, but they'll mail me the diploma.  Attached is the AAR for my Norwich University online Master's experience, with a couple redactions of course.  Contact me via PM if you have questions.  We've got another site member going through the MA in History program.

Bottom line: I was thoroughly impressed with the rigor, standards, and education of the Norwich program.  Anyone considering an online Master's degree should look at this institution.  You will get what you (or your service/employer) pay for.  If you're a service member with an undergraduate degree, get advanced education sooner rather than later.  Don't wait on military opportunities (Intermediate Level Education, Sergeant Majors Academy) to get your degree because, to paraphrase Robert Burns: "the best laid plans of mice and men often go awry" (or in millennial social speak, #lifehappens).  As Nike says..."Just do it"

Thanks to all the board members here for your support and encouragement.


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## BloodStripe (Jul 4, 2015)

Anyone here ever been through Naval Post Graduate School? More specifically I am looking to attend via long distance learning. I'm contemplating trying to get in the January start date, but I have some reservations with getting a graduate degree via distance learning.


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## policemedic (Jul 4, 2015)

NavyBuyer said:


> Anyone here ever been through Naval Post Graduate School? More specifically I am looking to attend via long distance learning. I'm contemplating trying to get in the January start date, but I have some reservations with getting a graduate degree via distance learning.



I'm pursuing a graduate degree from Penn State.  Pick the right school and you'll have no issues. NPS is very reputable; I'm considering them for a second master's degree if I don't choose a doctorate.


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## BloodStripe (Jul 12, 2015)

Montgomery GI Bill Refunds

Found out today that if you paid into the Montgomery GI Bill and used the Post 9/11 Bill, a refund is available. Maybe I was just totally out of the loop on this and everyone else knew a about it, but I thought I would share this.


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## BloodStripe (Jul 27, 2016)

I received my letter of acceptance today for my MBA program. I'm pumped. It's an intense one year program with several weeks on campus, however it is specialized towards my career field and should hopefully pay off massive dividends in the very near future.


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## Devildoc (Jul 27, 2016)

Congrats!

I start grad school (part 2*) next month.  Here's to all of us old farts too stupid to know when to hang it up 

*I was in grad school at Duke in the mid-90s; ran out of $, did not finish.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 27, 2016)

That is really good news. I wish you luck, an MBA in one year means your spouse will be an academic widow. It will pay off for you in the long run, handsomely. Best of luck!!


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## BloodStripe (Jul 27, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> That is really good news. I wish you luck, an MBA in one year means your spouse will be an academic widow. It will pay off for you in the long run, handsomely. Best of luck!!



Thank you.  Yes,  we had many discussions about that,  especially since we have a newborn as well.  We survived me taking 18 credit hour semesters amd working full time,  I should think we are pros at this by now.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 27, 2016)

. .


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## Salt USMC (Jul 27, 2016)

Congratulations you two


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## BloodStripe (Oct 31, 2016)

Just received some news I didn't want to hear.  The MBA program I have been accepted to is a yearlong (3 semesters) program and offers the ability to bill all up front for the entire program ($70k) or by semester. I questioned the VA when I was first applying and was told that since it's a public institution there is no cap on what amount they would pay out and even though it is a yearlong,  the VA will cover it if billed up front. The school though has decided that it will not request payment from the VA this way and instead will bill the VA by semester (roughly  $23k per semester). So now I'm left scrambling to find about $40k before January.  I'm not willing to go that far into debt for an MBA that is not required in my career field to make it up to as high as a GS 14. I have found that the William and Mary can be covered 100% by AWTAP ($10k per but I would owe the Navy 3 years starting the last year from which I would use the money), but I'm not necessarily ready to make that commitment , yet. Time to hit the ground running in applications for scholarships.


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## Devildoc (Oct 31, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> Just received some news I didn't want to hear.  The MBA program I have been accepted to is a yearlong (3 semesters) program and offers the ability to bill all up front for the entire program ($70k) or by semester. I questioned the VA when I was first applying and was told that since it's a public institution there is no cap on what amount they would pay out and even though it is a yearlong,  the VA will cover it if billed up front. The school though has decided that it will not request payment from the VA this way and instead will bill the VA by semester (roughly  $23k per semester). So now I'm left scrambling to find about $40k before January.  I'm not willing to go that far into debt for an MBA that is not required in my career field to make it up to as high as a GS 14. I have found that the William and Mary can be covered 100% by AWTAP ($10k per but I would owe the Navy 3 years starting the last year from which I would use the money), but I'm not necessarily ready to make that commitment , yet. Time to hit the ground running in applications for scholarships.



Sorry to hear about that; that's very tough.  Few of us can pony up that kinda scratch.  That's why I was in grad school at Duke for only a year.  I am very fortunate in that the grad school in I attend now is about a grand for a three hour course.

Best of luck to you.


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## TLDR20 (Oct 31, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> Just received some news I didn't want to hear.  The MBA program I have been accepted to is a yearlong (3 semesters) program and offers the ability to bill all up front for the entire program ($70k) or by semester. I questioned the VA when I was first applying and was told that since it's a public institution there is no cap on what amount they would pay out and even though it is a yearlong,  the VA will cover it if billed up front. The school though has decided that it will not request payment from the VA this way and instead will bill the VA by semester (roughly  $23k per semester). So now I'm left scrambling to find about $40k before January.  I'm not willing to go that far into debt for an MBA that is not required in my career field to make it up to as high as a GS 14. I have found that the William and Mary can be covered 100% by AWTAP ($10k per but I would owe the Navy 3 years starting the last year from which I would use the money), but I'm not necessarily ready to make that commitment , yet. Time to hit the ground running in applications for scholarships.



I would call the VA back. They should cover a very large portion per semester. If they would cover it up front they should cover it on a per semester basis.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 31, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I would call the VA back. They should cover a very large portion per semester. If they would cover it up front they should cover it on a per semester basis.



Agreed, my one remaining semester would cover $23k, plus the $1k enrollment fee (down payment). If I take on the $10k AWTAP funding and then a few thousand from NAVSUP, I'm left around $40k. I'm going to see if thr VA can provide something for me in writing about covering the full amount if UT will bill all at once. 

NAVSUP and UNC used to have some kind of agreement offering discounted semester rates but I haven't been able to find anything other than the LoG MBA, but that's $90k. :blkeye:


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## TLDR20 (Oct 31, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> Agreed, my one remaining semester would cover $23k, plus the $1k enrollment fee (down payment). If I take on the $10k AWTAP funding and then a few thousand from NAVSUP, I'm left around $40k. I'm going to see if thr VA can provide something for me in writing about covering the full amount if UT will bill all at once.
> 
> NAVSUP and UNC used to have some kind of agreement offering discounted semester rates but I haven't been able to find anything other than the LoG MBA, but that's $90k. :blkeye:



Ok. So you only have one semesters worth of remaining VA benefits? I am surprised they said they would pay the balance up front, particularly considering that the balance would be more than an entire GI bills worth of benefits.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 31, 2016)

There is no cap on masters or higher under Chapter 33 as long as it's a public institution.


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## TLDR20 (Oct 31, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> There is no cap on masters or higher under Chapter 33 as long as it's a public institution.



Oh... interesting.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 31, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Oh... interesting.



Post-9/11 GI Bill (Chapter 33) Payment Rates for 2016 Academic Year (August 1, 2016 - July 31, 2017) - Education and Training

It's not limited to just masters , so long as you are classified as an in-state resident.


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## Salt USMC (Nov 1, 2016)

Veterans in the Ivy League: Students seek to up their ranks

Pete Kiernan is a friend of mine and former Raider.


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## Lefty375 (Nov 1, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Veterans in the Ivy League: Students seek to up their ranks
> 
> Pete Kiernan is a friend of mine and former Raider.



It's surprising how many officers are in high-level graduate schools compared to undergraduate veterans. I have been trying to recruit people for admissions into top-level schools. There seems to be a lot of "I don't care about liberal arts, I just want a job" in the veteran community.


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## policemedic (Nov 1, 2016)

Lefty375 said:


> It's surprising how many officers are in high-level graduate schools compared to undergraduate veterans. I have been trying to recruit people for admissions into top-level schools. There seems to be a lot of "I don't care about liberal arts, I just want a job" in the veteran community.



I'd love my doctorate to come from an Ivy but as I near the end of my master's I really haven't been able to find an Ivy that either offers what I want or is convenient. 

Very annoying.


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## Salt USMC (Nov 1, 2016)

policemedic said:


> I'd love my doctorate to come from an Ivy but as I near the end of my master's I really haven't been able to find an Ivy that either offers what I want or is convenient.
> 
> Very annoying.


At least at the graduate level, the Ivies aren't necessarily the best choices.  When it comes to undergraduate education you can generally assume that they are generally very good, but that maxim doesn't hold as you start getting into more and more specific subjects.  If you're looking to become a quantum physics researcher, you'd be better off going to a Berkeley or MIT as opposed to Yale.  And as you said, they may not even offer your particular subject.

I mean, I guess there's some appeal to saying "Oh yes, I did go to an Ivy League school" as you gently swirl your brandy snifter, adjust your ascot, and dust off your monocle, but it's not really worth the cost and frustration just for that.  Besides, the Ivy mystique wears off after about three weeks when you realize just how much work you have to do


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## Devildoc (Nov 1, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> At least at the graduate level, the Ivies aren't necessarily the best choices.  When it comes to undergraduate education you can generally assume that they are generally very good, but that maxim doesn't hold as you start getting into more and more specific subjects.  If you're looking to become a quantum physics researcher, you'd be better off going to a Berkeley or MIT as opposed to Yale.  And as you said, they may not even offer your particular subject.
> 
> I mean, I guess there's some appeal to saying "Oh yes, I did go to an Ivy League school" as you gently swirl your brandy snifter, adjust your ascot, and dust off your monocle, but it's not really worth the cost and frustration just for that. * Besides, the Ivy mystique wears off after about three weeks when you realize just how much work you have to do*



...and how much it costs....


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## TLDR20 (Nov 2, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> ...and how much it costs....



At the Ph.D level most people are funded either by the school or by grants. You don't really use loans to get a Ph.D.

But for undergrad, or a Masters? Hell yeah expensive as fuck.


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## Lefty375 (Nov 2, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> At the Ph.D level most people are funded either by the school or by grants. You don't really use loans to get a Ph.D.
> 
> But for undergrad, or a Masters? Hell yeah expensive as fuck.



For sure. It really helps if you are poor.


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## BloodStripe (May 17, 2017)

Just completed my first semester towards my MBA. Sadly I am going to have to take a break at this time due to my command not approving my leave for one of the on campus residency periods for third semester. I am happy to report a 3.87 GPA and look forward to getting at it again next year, where I'll hopefully be at a new command.

Has anyone ever switched schools while perusing a graduate degree? I have considered switching to a school closer to home and it is also considerably cheaper, from almost $1,900 a credit hour to just over $800. I know switching will very from school to school, but I'm curious how it went for anyone else.


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## Red Flag 1 (May 17, 2017)

.


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## Marauder06 (May 18, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> Just completed my first semester towards my MBA. Sadly I am going to have to take a break at this time due to my command not approving my leave for one of the on campus residency periods for third semester. I am happy to report a 3.87 GPA and look forward to getting at it again next year, where I'll hopefully be at a new command.
> 
> Has anyone ever switched schools while perusing a graduate degree? I have considered switching to a school closer to home and it is also considerably cheaper, from almost $1,900 a credit hour to just over $800. I know switching will very from school to school, but I'm curious how it went for anyone else.




I did.  I switched from University of Phoenix to Webster University when UofP changed my program and didn't grandfather me into the old rules.  I'm actually glad that happened, because UofP's reputation starting sliding a few years after that.


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## Devildoc (May 18, 2017)

@NavyBuyer , great GPA and work!  Good luck with figuring out how it'll pan out.

I just finished my first year of grad school.  Nursing is theory-heavy and the curricula still has a lot of hoops that are 100% totally and completely useless information in the 'real world'.  I had a health policy class which was good, and the assessment for advanced practice providers was excellent.  The other classes, meh.  I am in summer session now taking a research class.  It's the proverbial elephant, trying to eat it one bite at a time.


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## Gunz (May 18, 2017)

My wife just got her masters from University of Florida. (International Strategic Communications.) I'm proud of her but that's a lot of student loan money that we'll have to pay back. And the youngest still has two more years to go at FSU.

Guess I won't be getting that new tractor anytime soon.


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## Devildoc (May 18, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> My wife just got her masters from University of Florida. (International Strategic Communications.) $40-grand. :wall::wall: I'm proud of her but goddam that's almost five bills a month payback out of the cookie jar. And the youngest still has two more years to go at FSU.
> 
> Guess I won't be getting that new tractor anytime soon.



I am very (VERY) fortunate in that my employer reimburses, so my degree will essentially be no cost to me.  Even so, my university is about $1,200 for a 3-hour class, so my entire Masters will be around $13K.

I will say all colleges in the UNC system are quite reasonable.  I had been in grad school at Duke, that degree was gonna set me back $50K.


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## BloodStripe (May 18, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> I did.  I switched from University of Phoenix to Webster University when UofP changed my program and didn't grandfather me into the old rules.  I'm actually glad that happened, because UofP's reputation starting sliding a few years after that.



Thanks, I'll look into WU. I have 15 credit hours complete so the more I can carry over, the better. I looked into William and Mary and they will take up to nine, which is better than zero.


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## Marauder06 (May 18, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> Thanks, I'll look into WU. I have 15 credit hours complete so the more I can carry over, the better. I looked into William and Mary and they will take up to home, which is better than zero.



Depending on what you want the degree for, W&M is a much more prestigious school than WU.  It might be worth a little additional time/cost.


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## BloodStripe (May 18, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> Depending on what you want the degree for, W&M is a much more prestigious school than WU.  It might be worth a little additional time/cost.



 While I agree that W&M is better on paper,  I plan on staying a GS employee, so who the degree is from doesn't matter as much as it does having a check in the box.  With that being said, I don't want just a check in the box.  I want to learn and earn the degree. I was going through a program with GS 14 and 15's in the acquisition community and defense industry managers (mostly Lockheed's Skunk Works and Boeing), which made for a really great classroom dynamic.


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## R.Caerbannog (Oct 9, 2017)

Just outta curiosity, is a Bachelors of Science in Anthropology worth much when trying to get into the intelligence sector? The reason I ask, is  I'm about to finish my Bachelors this fall and the postings I qualify for via USA Jobs are mainly Park Ranger gigs. Originally I was looking at getting a gig in archaeology, but after being around my peers and going to the some of the Anthropology/Archaeology conferences I'm not so sure. Long story short, I'm curious to know if I have any routes open getting into the intelligence field.

At the moment, I'm deciding if I should bite the bullet and attend grad school (non-thesis option) where I am or seek a degree that will get me a gig in the DOD or the intel world. Currently, I have three semesters and change (almost 4) of GI bill left. Adding to that, I should be able to transfer between 6-9 credits towards my masters from my undergrad as I've taken some dual credit grad/undergrad courses; if I go the anthropology route. Guess I'm not sure if I should just suck it up and go the archaeology route or see what else is out there. Anyone have any ideas?


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## Florida173 (Oct 9, 2017)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Just outta curiosity, is a Bachelors of Science in Anthropology worth much when trying to get into the intelligence sector? The reason I ask, is  I'm about to finish my Bachelors this fall and the postings I qualify for via USA Jobs are mainly Park Ranger gigs. Originally I was looking at getting a gig in archaeology, but after being around my peers and going to the some of the Anthropology/Archaeology conferences I'm not so sure. Long story short, I'm curious to know if I have any routes open getting into the intelligence field.
> 
> At the moment, I'm deciding if I should bite the bullet and attend grad school (non-thesis option) where I am or seek a degree that will get me a gig in the DOD or the intel world. Currently, I have three semesters and change (almost 4) of GI bill left. Adding to that, I should be able to transfer between 6-9 credits towards my masters from my undergrad as I've taken some dual credit grad/undergrad courses; if I go the anthropology route. Guess I'm not sure if I should just suck it up and go the archaeology route or see what else is out there. Anyone have any ideas?



It's on you to find an application for your degree in the intelligence community. Generally a bachelor's degree is pretty useless and since everyone has one and I haven't seen a good correlation between the type of degree and how good an analyst is. I've worked with a guy that had a culinary degree and was amazing.. I've also seen a ton of guys without degrees that are amazing too. Since DIA has put so much weight on just having a degree, it's put an emphases in feeding _their_ ideal educated analysts. The ivory tower of academia is a lie.

My BS degree in Arabic and Middle Eastern Cultural Studies helps pretty often because of my language skills, but honestly we need analysts learning data analytics nowadays. The community needs to stop hiring data scientists that have zero intelligence community analytical experience. Theirs a couple of master's programs out there that cater to us.

Once my better half finishes her PHD program, in going to pursue one of those. In the meantime there's a shitload of certificates people can get like CEH, security+, GISP, ETC...


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## BloodStripe (Oct 9, 2017)

By getting into the DoD, are you wanting to do strictly Intel work, or, are you willing to enter civil service in any capacity? I am an 1102, which is a Contract Specialist, and it only requires a bachelor's degree; however, you must have earned at least 24 credit hours in business. It's a great career field that also has a lot of promotion potential and is in high demand all over the world. Inside of the career field exist multiple facets that can lead you to a desk job in D.C or contingency contracting in a third world country that lacks every necessity possible, and it's your job to get those for everyone there. The easiest way in is via an internship program. You'll hire in as a GS 07 (assuming you have at least a 3.0 GPA) and you will be promoted every year for the next three years to a GS 12. If you want to know more feel free to send me a PM.


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## 8482farm (Oct 9, 2017)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Just outta curiosity, is a Bachelors of Science in Anthropology worth much when trying to get into the intelligence sector? The reason I ask, is  I'm about to finish my Bachelors this fall and the postings I qualify for via USA Jobs are mainly Park Ranger gigs. Originally I was looking at getting a gig in archaeology, but after being around my peers and going to the some of the Anthropology/Archaeology conferences I'm not so sure. Long story short, I'm curious to know if I have any routes open getting into the intelligence field.
> 
> At the moment, I'm deciding if I should bite the bullet and attend grad school (non-thesis option) where I am or seek a degree that will get me a gig in the DOD or the intel world. Currently, I have three semesters and change (almost 4) of GI bill left. Adding to that, I should be able to transfer between 6-9 credits towards my masters from my undergrad as I've taken some dual credit grad/undergrad courses; if I go the anthropology route. Guess I'm not sure if I should just suck it up and go the archaeology route or see what else is out there. Anyone have any ideas?



It depends, what is the concentration of your Anthropology studies? Have you been involved in any kind of internship or undergrad research?


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## Il Duce (Oct 9, 2017)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Just outta curiosity, is a Bachelors of Science in Anthropology worth much when trying to get into the intelligence sector? The reason I ask, is  I'm about to finish my Bachelors this fall and the postings I qualify for via USA Jobs are mainly Park Ranger gigs. Originally I was looking at getting a gig in archaeology, but after being around my peers and going to the some of the Anthropology/Archaeology conferences I'm not so sure. Long story short, I'm curious to know if I have any routes open getting into the intelligence field.
> 
> At the moment, I'm deciding if I should bite the bullet and attend grad school (non-thesis option) where I am or seek a degree that will get me a gig in the DOD or the intel world. Currently, I have three semesters and change (almost 4) of GI bill left. Adding to that, I should be able to transfer between 6-9 credits towards my masters from my undergrad as I've taken some dual credit grad/undergrad courses; if I go the anthropology route. Guess I'm not sure if I should just suck it up and go the archaeology route or see what else is out there. Anyone have any ideas?



I'd recommend you apply for the types of jobs you're interested in now.  You'll find out much more where you'll fall short (if you do) through the interview process.

The best IC analysts have significant IC experience and have advanced degrees.  There are a number of ways to get those things simultaneously - the educational opportunities in the IC are world-class.  I recommend people start young in the IC and let their career shape their educational pursuits rather than trying to fit in all the education up front.


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## R.Caerbannog (Oct 9, 2017)

Golly, thanks for the heads up guys. I didn't realize that there were so many options out there apart from internships, specializing in linguistics, and/or cultural anthropology. This is going to sound dumb, but I always figured intel people sat behind desks and trawled through mountains of data in order to find out the meaning behind the chess moves of state-level actors and supply the data to counter them.

From what I've been exposed to in arch/anthro classes, the end goal is to determine behaviors based on artifacts deposits (garbage piles) from people long gone. Hence me thinking that intel and archeology fell into a similar vein of sifting through data to understand human behavior.

@Florida173 Didn't think about certificates, will do research and see if my school offers any of those. This semester I started the coursework for a GIS certificate, so I'll have to reconsider if that GIS cert is gonna be worth the time and energy.

@NavyBuyer I'll definitely take a look at the requirements for being a contract specialist and figure out how quickly I can take and finish the classes required for that field. Thank you, I never would have known about OPM jobs.

@8482farm Most of my classes have been focused on the basics of historic and prehistoric archaeology of the North West. As for undergraduate lab work, I've helped in the identification and cataloguing of historic artifacts associated with an old army dump site from the late 1800's. At best I can make assumptions about past behaviors based on artifact types and how they are deposited in layers of soil. I.e. officers having access to higher quality booze based on the types of glass alcohol vessels found near their quarters. Not sure if that helps.

@Il Duce That's awesome to know, I'll make a trip to the career center and update my resume. Might as well get prepped for rejection, lol.

Seriously, thanks guys. Always felt intimidated looking into the IC field, have been under the impression that it was full of people like Summer from Firefly. You know, the type that can kill you with their brain. Now I'm not as worried.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 21, 2022)

If you're thinking "I could never go to 'X' school. don't.  Most schools LOVE to have vets.  Even "those" schools.


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## Devildoc (Jul 21, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> If you're thinking "I could never go to 'X' school. don't.  Most schools LOVE to have vets.  Even "those" schools.



Duke is vet-friendly, has an active military veterans association with a healthy mixture of students and staff/faculty.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 21, 2022)

Devildoc said:


> Duke is vet-friendly, has an active military veterans association with a healthy mixture of students and staff/faculty.


My most-recent former boss at West Point was a Duke PhD.  He had similar things to say about the school.


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