# Gen Neller says Get Out Your Maps



## Gunz (Feb 13, 2016)

This surprised me only because I wasn't aware the Corps had completely shelved map and compass for GPS, Blue Force Tracker etc 


Commandant to Marines: 'Get out your map and your compass'


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 13, 2016)

Now if they'd take those fucking optics off the rifles during qual I'd really be impressed.  

Every Marine is a Rifleman - unless of course they have to use Iron Sights - :wall:


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## Teufel (Feb 13, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> This surprised me only because I wasn't aware the Corps had completely shelved map and compass for GPS, Blue Force Tracker etc
> 
> 
> Commandant to Marines: 'Get out your map and your compass'



All my guys use maps and terrain models. They only use GPS for confirmation.


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## AWP (Feb 13, 2016)

I would be shocked if I hadn't witnessed this first hand in Afghanistan. We had a few people who considered Google Maps to be too difficult so I'd hate to see them with a 1:50k map.


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## Gunz (Feb 13, 2016)

Teufel said:


> All my guys use maps and terrain models. They only use GPS for confirmation.



I just assumed map & compass would be taught along with the tech gear. At least for 03 MOSs.

When you say all your guys use maps, is that at your discretion as the CO, or originating higher up?


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## Gunz (Feb 13, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I would be shocked if I hadn't witnessed this first hand in Afghanistan. We had a few people who considered Google Maps to be too difficult so I'd hate to see them with a 1:50k map.



Unfuckingbelieveable


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## Teufel (Feb 13, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> I just assumed map & compass would be taught along with the tech gear. At least for 03 MOSs.
> 
> When you say all your guys use maps, is that at your discretion as the CO, or originating higher up?



It's pretty standard in the reconnaissance community.  I would imagine the Rangers and SF are the same.


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## Ranger Psych (Feb 13, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Now if they'd take those fucking optics off the rifles during qual I'd really be impressed.
> 
> Every Marine is a Rifleman - unless of course they have to use Iron Sights - :wall:



So you don't want them using what they actually will use in combat to train with?


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 13, 2016)

Ranger Psych said:


> So you don't want them using what they actually will use in combat to train with?



Come on, you know better than that. There will always be time to train with optics, (MCT). But at bootcamp?  No - just no. Not for final qualifying anyway.

Those young Marines should leave MCRD believing that they can hit anything, at 500 yards, regardless of the wind, with iron sights. They should believe they are invincible with that weapon - stripped down to its barest form.

Technology breaks, fundamentals  do not.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 13, 2016)

Just because they are using Blue Force or GPS for navigation, doesn't mean they don't have maps and compasses or the ability to use them.

I've always kept a map and compass on me when deployed, but primarily used GPS. I mean why wouldn't you, its accurate and fast, and you don't see people getting lost from it. And yes "if it fails" I can take out my map terrain orientate, triangulate my position, set azimuth and keep a walking or running pace count on flat, rolling and steep terrains....but damn that GPS makes shit a lot easier.


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## AWP (Feb 13, 2016)

I think it is a matter of knowledge vs. dependency. You should know how to run your weapon with iron sights or use a map, but if your job has you using optics and GPS, then train with that. JTACs have Rovers or whatever now, but can still run CAS without them. Guys should know how to use "old school" methods as a backup, paratroopers practice emergency procedures and dumping a reserve, but you train with your primary tools. My takeaway from the article is there are guys, perhaps a large group, who can't even do the Mk. 1, Mod. 0, Skill Level 1 stuff. Much like the Army's heavy units forgot how to "tank" because of years in Iraq they need to go back and work on plugging the Fulda Gap or whatever it is tankers do (besides your mom...everyone does your mom).


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## Ranger Psych (Feb 13, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Come on, you know better than that. There will always be time to train with optics, (MCT). But at bootcamp?  No - just no. Not for final qualifying anyway.
> 
> Those young Marines should leave MCRD believing that they can hit anything, at 500 yards, regardless of the wind, with iron sights. They should believe they are invincible with that weapon - stripped down to its barest form.
> 
> Technology breaks, fundamentals  do not.



You're right, technology breaks, fundamentals do not. Do you not think it's just as much of a challenge to hit a 500m target with a red dot as it is with irons? Hint: I've done both as well, and it's no easier, if not harder as the dot's size is actually larger than the front sight post depending on what optic is being used. It can also be harder with a magnified optic, as the more recent reticle variations of the ACOG actually are combination rifle/MG reticles, and don't have a closed crosshair once you get beyond what, 300m? I'd have to go through pictures of the ACOG-ECOS I had to see, but without a closed cross for the crosshair, you start to have to hope and pray with regards to that you're actually lined up on a target/enemy.

When I first got to Regiment, we'd strip off our optics to do our qualification, having to rezero everything and the whole 9. Then the powers that be got smart, and realized that HEY we're actually, you know, going to go to war with an optic on our rifle. Perhaps we should ensure at all levels that while you can hit shit with the backups and it's sighted in, that you actually can perform with the kit that you're going to go to war with.

As far as I can recall, the only optics we ever had fail was ACOG TA-01NSN's that were mounted to 240's, and one Aimpoint after it frapped in from a M1950 case failure. The ACOG's couldn't handle the vibration amount from the MG's given how much we used them, at which point the Elcan MGO's came to fruition. 

The optics in use now are arguably (Other than Eotechs, which I never liked in the first place) sturdier than iron sights anyway. They mount over more surface area on the weapon, have protected adjustment systems so they don't get knocked off zero as easily as irons, and at least with red dots still even allow you to fire accurately if the sight is occluded with mud or has the front lens damaged. What happens when an iron sight gets damaged? You're straight up fucked, you can't accurately fire if it's occluded.

Iron sights are emergency redundant sight systems on today's weapons and battlefield. It's reality. Pretty much every Iraqi, Insurgent, Taliban, Alqueda, and even UBL himself were all shot in the face or other body parts, repeatedly, with optics. 

To bring things back on topic, modern GPS systems and equipment still leave much to be desired in terms of versatility and simple quick understanding at a glance when compared to map and compass. Confirmation with GPS of location is the whole reason that the mini-garmin wrist units came about, and part of why at one point I was looking into a GPS-enabled watch. I just decided to stick with my Suunto Vector because at that time, all the watch GPS'es accuracy left something to be desired, and used my shit-ass Etrex for grid confirmation if there wasn't enough visibility or terrain features to reliably terrain associated off of.

Hell, even the FBCB2 on the stryker had a topo map inherent into it. Yeah, it showed our position, but you could still look at the terrain lines in the area and be able to tell what you were going to be dealing with in the area. It made it easier in some regards when the PL did his job and input all the appropriate information, especially with a shit supply train and logistical backbone to the unit that couldn't even shit us all enough maps for TL+ to be guaranteed a map of the area we were in. I know we didn't get maps when we were in JRTC, and I had to barter with brohams in the 501st so that I had a fucking map of Ft. Richardson.  We did many squad OPORD dissiminations straight off the FBCB2, making up for the lack of physical maps to be able to do things as well as time with FRAGO's to be able to terrain model and such. Initial OPORD, if we had the assets, we would run off of the usual terrain model and paper maps and such, but in the field with that crap logtrain, we made do with what we had. Adapt and overcome and all that jazz.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 13, 2016)

@Ranger Psych -

I'm not even going to begin to try and go toe-to-toe with you regarding the effectiveness of Red Dot vs. Iron sights in the field - let the record show I concede that argument.  But...I've longed believed that we rely too much on technology, and this is just another example.  Maybe it is as simple as old Corps vs. new Corps  (every generation has their bitch about one change or another), and I appreciate your comments above.


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## Ranger Psych (Feb 13, 2016)

Not in concession, but in a agreement with tertiary focus diversion, I do, have, and will always wholeheartedly believe that competency WITH the redundant/backup systems is of paramount importance. Then again, I had some wack mofuckin TL/SL's as a cherry that most definitely increased my combat effectiveness with regards to the utilization of all of my equipment. 

You need to know how to use everything you have to the utmost of it's ability. If that means busting it out on the 500m berm with your TL going "SHIT BROKE WHATCHA GONNA DO" halfway through your string, then that's what needs to happen. Not every time, obviously, but enough to still have the wherewithal to flip up those irons and keep dropping bodies like it ain't no thing to the far limit of your point and area effective ranges.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 13, 2016)

I know one haji was killed with iron sights in Baghdad-zone 14 on January 5th 2005 at around 1900hrs...


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## Gunz (Feb 13, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @Ranger Psych -
> 
> I'm not even going to begin to try and go toe-to-toe with you regarding the effectiveness of Red Dot vs. Iron sights in the field - let the record show I concede that argument.  But...I've longed believed that we rely too much on technology, and this is just another example.  Maybe it is as simple as old Corps vs. new Corps  (every generation has their bitch about one change or another), and I appreciate your comments above.



I know what you're sayin bro. There's a part of me that thinks we oughta break all those old M14s out of cosmoline and make the prives qual with them at 200, 300 and 500...then give them the new shit when they get to SOI where they're gonna learn combat shooting anyway...but I think @Ranger Psych has a pretty good handle on it.

Btw, I still have the tactical map of my AO that was in my right thigh pocket when I got medevaced. I'm gonna have to dig it out and see if I can still read it.


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## Grunt (Feb 13, 2016)

Nothing like mastering the basics in land navigation and shooting due to the fact that you never know when the good old batteries are going to be dead. 

I was recently shooting at the range and one of the guys immediately to my right found out that his battery was dead on his scope. It looked like the blood rushed from his head when he noticed it...we were shooting at 50 yards......I was actually embarrassed for him. Yep...50 yards...wow!


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## Gunz (Feb 14, 2016)

Map and compass land navigation and "old fashioned" iron sight marksmanship should be among the skills of an infantryman.

The A10 has a backup hydraulic system, and if the backup fails, the pilot can go manual. That's three levels of  failsafe. That's part of what makes it such a durable and dangerous weapon.

Why shouldn't a Soldier or Marine have a few backups?

It's always good to master some of the old ways. Look at Robert Roger's Rules of Ranging. Written 250 years ago and most of them still hold up.


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## AKkeith (Feb 14, 2016)

Honestly. What we needed was GPS training. All we ever did was land nav with compass and maps and told all about how we'd need it if our GPS ever failed. We were great at it. 
I was always issued out my Foretrex at the armory. Told I was required to take it. Never knew how to use a single function on it. It was another piece of useless gear I had lug around and insure I didn't lose or Id have hell come down on my head.


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## DA SWO (Feb 14, 2016)

AKkeith said:


> Honestly. What we needed was GPS training. All we ever did was land nav with compass and maps and told all about how we'd need it if our GPS ever failed. We were great at it.
> I was always issued out my Foretrex at the armory. Told I was required to take it. Never knew how to use a single function on it. It was another piece of useless gear I had lug around and insure I didn't lose or Id have hell come down on my head.



To like, agree, hate, or disagree?
Hmm.

Foretrex semi-useless users manual is online .

At least you'd have a small clue.  Find a tech savy guy (like yourself) and just play with the fucking thing in your backyard, neighborhood, etc.
See what it can do.  That's what I'll be doing this week with mine.


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## AKkeith (Feb 14, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> To like, agree, hate, or disagree?
> Hmm.
> 
> Foretrex semi-useless users manual is online .
> ...


I'm sure I could have gotten some of it figured out, if I had time with it. 

Of course brilliance in the basics is the foundation, but if we actually trained our units in the newer technology we could refine our tactics even more and catch up with the 21st century. 

*This is most likely only directed at the Marine Corps, as we are notoriously behind the times with gear, and stubbornly stuck in the old ways.


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## Gunz (Feb 14, 2016)

Interesting. Strange they'd give you a GPS and not instruct you in its proper use. Actually not so strange when I think about some essential skills I had to learn OJT in the field, most notably comm.


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## DA SWO (Feb 14, 2016)

AKkeith said:


> I'm sure I could have gotten some of it figured out, if I had time with it.
> 
> Of course brilliance in the basics is the foundation, but if we actually trained our units in the newer technology we could refine our tactics even more and catch up with the 21st century.
> 
> *This is most likely only directed at the Marine Corps, as we are notoriously behind the times with gear, and stubbornly stuck in the old ways.


No, even some of the SOF units had issues with new stuff.
One problem was staffers ( such as I ) shipping new gear to units already deployed and expecting them to get trained on it while conducting ops.  Doable, but only if you have a good idea of what their environment is, and develop a good plan.
I actually had a new radio slapped into a rucksack as we were headed to Green Ramp, too bad the battery case and batteries were left in the supply room.


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## x SF med (Feb 15, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I would be shocked if I hadn't witnessed this first hand in Afghanistan. We had a few people who considered Google Maps to be too difficult so I'd hate to see them with a 1:50k map.



Um, what about a 1 over the world? :dead:


(1 over the world is 1:250,000 for the non map reading types)


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## Devildoc (Feb 16, 2016)

Land nav is a skill.  Clearly, if any 13 year-old in the Boy Scouts can learn it, anyone can.  I am 'old school' as well in that GPS and electronic optics didn't get to us until WELL after we had been using map/compass (and iron sights).  As much as I appreciate GPS, and I do, I am a believer in "two is one, one is none," and although I have never seen a GPS go down I like the comfy feeling of knowing I can go full 'old school' if I had to.

I have zero prob with having new technology and even qualifying on it as long as one can qualify on the Mark 1 Mod 0 stuff as well.


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## Gunz (Feb 16, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> Land nav is a skill.  Clearly, if any 13 year-old in the Boy Scouts can learn it, anyone can.  I am 'old school' as well in that GPS and electronic optics didn't get to us until WELL after we had been using map/compass (and iron sights).  As much as I appreciate GPS, and I do, I am a believer in "two is one, one is none," and although I have never seen a GPS go down I like the comfy feeling of knowing I can go full 'old school' if I had to.
> 
> I have zero prob with having new technology and even qualifying on it as long as one can qualify on the Mark 1 Mod 0 stuff as well.



My Corpsman at 2nd CAG could plan and encode night acts, call in CAS, Arty, Medevacs, even lead a patrol if need be. And likewise he made sure we all knew how to give IVs and stabilize wounds. There were only 12 of us so we all needed to know how to do everybody else's job, at least the basics, if we ran into trouble.

We also rotated weapons and gear. We were all 03xx, but everybody got time carrying and using our two M79s or the PRC25s, everybody knew their maps and call signs, everybody knew how to rig C4 and detcord and I made sure everybody knew the M60. Theory was the last man standing had to be able to pick up anything and use it effectively. This was not a Corps-wide policy. I believe cross-training was unique at the time for Recon and Combined Action units and not generally done in the rifle companies.


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## DA SWO (Feb 16, 2016)

You have to be able to use maps, anyone thinking GPS is secure and jam proof is a fool.

I would not be surprised to find out that the Russians gave Iran GPS jammers, and that cost us a drone and riverine boat/crew.


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## AWP (Feb 16, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> I would not be surprised to find out that the Russians gave Iran GPS jammers, and that cost us a drone and riverine boat/crew.



Slow down, killer, are you saying Russia would engage in a virtual proxy war against the US? I am disappointed in your lack of trust in Russian and Iranian leadership. Next you're going to say Russian's deployed spy planes to Syria or they've intercepted our aircraft.

In Russia, GPS jams you.


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## Devildoc (Feb 16, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> My Corpsman at 2nd CAG could plan and encode night acts, call in CAS, Arty, Medevacs, even lead a patrol if need be. And likewise he made sure we all knew how to give IVs and stabilize wounds. There were only 12 of us so we all needed to know how to do everybody else's job, at least the basics, if we ran into trouble.
> 
> We also rotated weapons and gear. We were all 03xx, but everybody got time carrying and using our two M79s or the PRC25, everybody knew their maps and call signs, everybody knew how to rig C4 and detcord and I made sure everybody knew the M60. Theory was the last man standing had to be able to pick up anything and use it effectively. This was not a Corps-wide policy. I believe cross-training was unique at the time for Recon and Combined Action units and not generally done in the rifle companies.
> 
> ...



My favorite PC was a Mustang who dearly believed the same.  All of the platoon would cross-train and "next man up" was his favorite phrase.  And that's how I got as proficient as I did with land nav, because on admin patrols he would make me the navigator.


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## AWP (Mar 1, 2016)

I mean, who among us hasn't used a civilian GPS to accidentally get into a fight?

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/03/02/world/middleeast/waze-israel-soldiers-west-bank.html?_r=0

Traffic app Waze denies misdirecting Israeli troops - BBC News



> Waze, the Google-owned traffic app, says it is not to blame after two Israeli soldiers drove into a Palestinian refugee camp.
> 
> Their arrival sparked fierce fighting, with Israeli reinforcements also then deployed to the Qalandia camp site.


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## Gunz (Mar 1, 2016)

Those Israelis, what pranksters. It wasn't all just fun and games, they got to take out a BG.


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