# Special Forces BAT WING: Revisited



## JBS (Apr 7, 2008)

Some of you remember the new "BATWING" that allows a parachutist to actually glide to their destination.  The carbon-fiber wing is rumored to be under extensive testing by U.S. Special Operations forces and could allow them to silently glide at very high speed into their target zone, in some cases over 120 miles- even while fully loaded with their gear.  The wing has already been used by professional adventurers to glide over the English Channel, and appears to be stable enough to be used in other capacities.

News of the Batwing's testing, and potential use among Special Operations forces spread rapidly in the middle of 2006, before eventually fading out of discussion circles.  Skydivers and professional adventurers, however, have been experimenting with variations on the Batwing theme, by using flaps of material on their arms and legs, to generate a similar "glide" effect.  The wing-suits are so effective, and stable, that even BASE (Building Antenna Span and Earth) Jumpers have been using them to clear obstacles.  BASE Jumpers leap off of bridges, sheer cliffs and other fixed objects, and must exercise caution to avoid collisions with the structures they leap from- unlike skydivers, who leap from aircraft or balloons.  Although the carbon fiber wing is far more menacing in appearance, some aerial risk-takers are getting amazing results using mere silk and polyester!




This video shows a modified "Bat-suit" which allows the user to literally glide, before deploying his conventional parachute.  It is amazing how far someone can use this suit to go.  The actual carbon fiber wing must be even more impressive to see in action.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1rtxuIKnfo[/ame]


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## AWP (Apr 7, 2008)

The Batsuit will not be used by MFF jumpers. The carbon-fiber wing? I don't know.


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## 8'Duece (Apr 8, 2008)

I dont get it. 

With a HAHO jump can't our freefallers roll up to 20 miles outside of a designated DZ ?

How much further and higher do the freefallers really want to go ??


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## Hitman2/3 (Apr 8, 2008)

I don't know, I mean it would be great to be able to glide 120mi as the enemy would have not even a hint as to you being there, unless your unlucky or screw up. However, once they got on the ground what the hell would they do with the wing. They can't carry them with them, trying to successfully cache 12 of them seems pretty difficult depending on the terrain , and they don't look cheap so I don't think ditching them would be an option. Who knows.


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## JBS (Apr 8, 2008)

For a critical pre-invasion insert that is going to require eyes-on intel, the cost of the carbon fiber wing is irrelevant.  What's a half-dozen or dozen $25K carbon fiber wings, in comparison to a successful mission?   It's probably very economical when put it in perspective with the types of missions it would be supporting.  Other assetts -much more expensive- have their limitations.  What does a satellite or Predator cost?  For all their expense, sophistication and usefulness, they can't actually put a man with his rifle on the ground.


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## HoosierAnnie (Apr 8, 2008)

I was just looking at the thumbnail.  Per the listed features: Fuel tank holding 1/2 gal in wing  times two wings = 1 gal  Yet they also list being able to carry the soldier at 140 mph for 125 miles.  Does anyone else see a problem??


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## AWP (Apr 8, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> I dont get it.
> 
> With a HAHO jump can't our freefallers roll up to 20 miles outside of a designated DZ ?
> 
> How much further and higher do the freefallers really want to go ??



Further than that distance-wise.

As for the altitude question there are certain physiological issues to contend with the higher one goes. At some point, it just isn't worth it unless you are looking to set a record, not infil a team.


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## surgicalcric (Apr 8, 2008)

MFF slots are hard enough to come by...wonder how long the wait will be for that course... 

Crip


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## x SF med (Apr 8, 2008)

I could not help myself...  sorry to all you youngsters out ther ewho never got to enjoy this campy 60's TV show.


[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IQBobrCBTNI[/ame]


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## 8'Duece (Apr 8, 2008)

Freefalling said:


> Further than that distance-wise.
> 
> As for the altitude question there are certain physiological issues to contend with the higher one goes. At some point, it just isn't worth it unless you are looking to set a record, not infil a team.




Guess that what I was thinking. 

Isn't 20 miles or say 40 enough ? Unless you wann drop guy's 125 miles outside of downtown Kiev, then I still can't get my arms wrapped around the concept, really. :doh:

I'm not an avid skydiver, but I do hold my USPA "A" card. Not the same thing, I know. I've only opened high once, 8,000 AGL and it was a bitch to not be temped to just float to a whole nother state and pick out a corn field somewhere.


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## 8'Duece (Apr 8, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> Guess that what I was thinking.
> 
> Isn't 20 miles or say 40 enough ? Unless you wann drop guy's 125 miles outside of downtown Kiev, then I still can't get my arms wrapped around the concept, really. :doh:
> 
> I'm not an avid skydiver, but I do hold my USPA "A" card. Not the same thing, I know. I've only opened high once, 8,000 AGL and it was a bitch to not be temped to just float to a whole nother state and pick out a corn field somewhere.



I've never dived high enough to be oxygen assisted.  I understand the physio limits, especially without a pressure suit. It's cold enough at 12,000 AGL I can't imagine -45-95 degrees with oxygen.


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## AWP (Apr 8, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> Guess that what I was thinking.
> 
> Isn't 20 miles or say 40 enough ? Unless you wann drop guy's 125 miles outside of downtown Kiev, then I still can't get my arms wrapped around the concept, really. :doh:
> 
> I'm not an avid skydiver, but I do hold my USPA "A" card. Not the same thing, I know. I've only opened high once, 8,000 AGL and it was a bitch to not be temped to just float to a whole nother state and pick out a corn field somewhere.



As to what is enough and what isn't? I'm not an MFF guy so I couldn't answer that. I have some thoughts, but that isn't my lane so I'll stay out of it.

I did get out of a Cessna once at 9k and did a hop n pop about 5 miles from the airport. We had a good tail wind that day and paralleled State Road 100 here in FL for the jump run. My canopy was a Raider 220 loaded about .9 or so. I was still able to pass the occasional car and arrived over the airport with plenty of altitude to spare. The guys under the loaded Stilletos were really working their rear risers, but my nice fluffy F-111 let me ride without any control inputs. It was a good jump.

Later "Oh shit, where's the airport" spots led to some high openings under my Jedei 120 loaded at 1.7. That took some rear riser action to make it back to the airport and not land in a trailer park somewhere.

What methods the MFF guys use (rear risers, toggles, nothing) is unknown to me. For distance I've had the best luck with my rear risers.


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## JBS (Apr 8, 2008)

Hmm... apparently there are several generations of this thing.  The first generation was much larger- the one from 2003 was pretty huge.  Since then, they've made some improvements in the design which make it much smaller.  Much smaller than I thought it was, anyway.  *Here's a video of the guys walking around with a newer version of the things.*  If they are made of carbon fiber, then the glider versions could theoretically weigh less than 20 lbs / 8 kilos, although I'll have to research that to confirm the actual weight.  Not much to carbon fiber, after all.

http://www.freesky.de/Other/VICHY.mov


The one with the RED BULL LOGO is the first generation, I believe.


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## AWP (Apr 8, 2008)

Despite the drawings and assurances of the manufacturer I don't see where a 100 lb. ruck will go or how you cache something like that on the DZ. The other issue no one touches on is one of currency on the device. You don't strap that on after a jump or two and take it to combat.

From my outsider looking in perspective I don't see it as practical.


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## The Bodizepha (Apr 8, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> Guess that what I was thinking.
> 
> Isn't 20 miles or say 40 enough ? Unless you wann drop guy's 125 miles outside of downtown Kiev, then I still can't get my arms wrapped around the concept, really. :doh:
> 
> I'm not an avid skydiver, but I do hold my USPA "A" card. Not the same thing, I know. I've only opened high once, 8,000 AGL and it was a bitch to not be temped to just float to a whole nother state and pick out a corn field somewhere.



Stop talking, your annoying me. :cool:


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## Marauder06 (Apr 8, 2008)

"The Batwing..." makes me think of the movie, "Waiting.";)


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## Paddlefoot (Apr 8, 2008)

x SF med said:


> I could not help myself...  sorry to all you youngsters out ther ewho never got to enjoy this campy 60's TV show.




LMAO

The Bat-Tusi, now you just don't see quality TV like that these days. I think Batman was the inspiration for John Travolta in the _Pulp Fiction _ dance sequence.


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## HoosierAnnie (Apr 9, 2008)

Paddlefoot said:


> I think Batman was the inspiration for John Travolta in the _Pulp Fiction _ dance sequence.



Oh yeah it was.  There was an episode on Batman that included the exact same dance moves.  (OOK  so I was a batman fan as a kid)


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## Hitman2/3 (Apr 9, 2008)

JoeBlackSpade said:


> For a critical pre-invasion insert that is going to require eyes-on intel, the cost of the carbon fiber wing is irrelevant.  What's a half-dozen or dozen $25K carbon fiber wings, in comparison to a successful mission?   It's probably very economical when put it in perspective with the types of missions it would be supporting.  Other assetts -much more expensive- have their limitations.  What does a satellite or Predator cost?  For all their expense, sophistication and usefulness, they can't actually put a man with his rifle on the ground.



I agree with the price, for that type of mission we could afford it. However, like freefalling stated again trying to cache 12 or even 4 of those things on a DZ is going to be pretty impractical unless they've got a way of breaking them down into a nice compact package. If they can do that then hell yeah, but I'm thinking the version with the mini jets and fuel tanks that can get you that 140 mi will not have that option. Now that I think about it a jet engine, even a small one, has a distictive smell. If your haj or whoever marching along in the desert or jungle and all of a sudden you get a wif of JP-8 after smelling nothing but your buddies ass for the past few days or weeks, some warning bells might start going off. I dont know I think its a good concept, but when put into tactical terms for a snoop and poop mission I think it raises more problems than solutions.


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## JBS (Apr 9, 2008)

Yeah, those jet engine models will probably not allow much gear along for the ride.  


Here's a realistic scenario where this technology could be good, however:

a.) We've made contact with supportive locals, who have weapons and gear.  We have a cultivated, established relationship with those locals, and plan on giving them assistance.

b.) The border to this scenario nation is closed

c.) The military power that has closed the border also has short range, low grade *SAM*'s or other air defense; certainly not an impossible situation, but dangerous inside of 20 miles.

d.) We want a clean, clandestine insert of a 12-man team, plus 4 other observers/technical/language people

e.) The window of opportunity to insert is between midnight and 5 a.m., (cover of darkness, lowest level of alertness, etc.)  This could be important, when you take into consideration HAHO and the TOT that comes into play.



Every one of these conditions is real-world, and every one of those conditions could be completely satisfied with these flying batman wings.

A potential drawback is that your team would be dropped in with only a very light ruck, LBV's, and minimal weapons until after they hit their DZ, since the use of the wing limits what can be carried.  In the event of a catastrophic failure enroute to the DZ (for example GPS systems all failed, or some crazy thing to that effect) the team would find themselves on the ground in hostile territory without immediate access to their liaison / local force, and only lightly armed, since the bulk of their gear was to be provided by the liaison.

My thinking is that HALO and HAHO will not soon be replaced, and will probably remain one of the primary means of insert for a long time.  This batman wing is more likely going to be one of those things that gets put in the "grab bag" for elite units where TIME is of the essence, and where getting a helo or fixed wing very close to the target could compromise the team before they touch the ground.


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## Hitman2/3 (Apr 9, 2008)

Good call i could see it being a tool on the shelf. Maybe not used all the time or at all but there if the situation arises.


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## JBS (Apr 9, 2008)

Of course all this talk of carbon fiber, and concerns about weight... pffff...


back in MY day, we didn't worry about carbon fiber- didn't even HAVE it.  We used to pull the jackets off of the dead, and stitch our OWN bat-suits.

Then, just because we were hard, we'd strap on a 85lb brick onto our chests.


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## Hitman2/3 (Apr 10, 2008)

LOL, I bet.


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## JBS (Apr 10, 2008)

We didn't even jump from anything.  We just wore the suits.  With a brick.  In the chowhall.

People would ask, "What's that on your chest?"

I'd say "That's a goddamn brick!"


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## JBS (Apr 25, 2008)

I managed to find a couple of pics of the stowing capacity.

This answers the question of stowage of gear to be used on mission, but doesn't answer how the wings will be stowed after insertion.


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## AWP (Apr 25, 2008)

Storage in the wings? Oh,I bet that sucks.


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## Hitman2/3 (Apr 26, 2008)

Looks interesting. I got to wonder though about balancing the weight. If your a big guy like myself it probably wouldn't be a prob. However, if your a smaller guy say 150 or so and you got all of your gear (weapons, ammo, comm gear, ruck, 782 gear,chow, water etc) in the ass end how will that effect your flight? Or for that matter if you have heavier gear in your right wing as opposed to your left? Maybe they have a counter weight or something.


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## JBS (Apr 26, 2008)

The big question, at least in my mind, (that I have yet to see explained) is where in tarnation the wings get stowed once the team arrives at their destination.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Apr 26, 2008)

on your ruck


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## 8'Duece (Apr 26, 2008)

This doesn't seem nearly as bad as having a Stabilized equipment container (SEC) to follow in and then have to cache somewhere.


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## The91Bravo (Apr 26, 2008)

If there were a way to have the wings be articulated, and really really fold them into a much smaller configuration, then they could be cached easier.  Then you add to the 'murphy's law' popping in with a more complex platform....

more R&D before this becomes more mainstream... much more...


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## MFFJM091 (Apr 26, 2008)

I find the idea of this platform as a method of infiltration quiet amusing.  Having been on HALO teams and also being a member of the Golden Knights, this will never be used for an actual mission (apart from maybe an Army unit that is not located in Ft. Bragg).  It is hard enough keeping guys halfway proficient and at a level 1 status.  If the goal is to get a small fighting element, mostly undetected (as with sensitive radar jumpers can be seen in freefall, just ask the range control a Bragg), into a denied country then HALO/HAHO is a decent option.  If it doesn't give you the range then drive or walk.  If you need to get one or two individuals into a country then you use a passport, a commercial airline and a little tradecraft to get what you need.

I could spend hours shooting holes in this method of infiltration but I won't.  Of course I am just an 18B, GUN GO BANG!!!!! YEAAHHHHHHH!!!!!


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## Chopstick (Apr 26, 2008)

*Attack Wing: Glider Makes Waves With Stealth and Speed.*

http://www.foxnews.com/video2/video...8b2-cc7d-4c94-9b94-0cda51193130&sMPlaylistID=

http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,352477,00.html

It weighs only 30 pounds and can be fully weaponized for assault and rescue. It has a 6-foot jet-wing that is steered with handheld rotary controls connected to its rudder. And it can hide more than 100 pounds of combat gear in a built-in compartment.

The Gryphon attack glider, designed to penetrate combat zones at 135 miles per hour, could revolutionize the art of parachuting. It has got to be at the top of James Bond’s Christmas list this year.

A vision straight out of "Batman," the carbon-fiber stealth glider quadruples the speed of similar craft — and there are quite a few special forces soldiers who would like to jump out of a plane at 30,000 feet and give it a whirl.

Its helmet has a heads-up display and provides on-board oxygen for the jump. To land, a soldier separates the wing from his pack and releases his parachute to slow his descent. The wing remains attached to the soldier by a cord and lands before him.

You might wonder who would volunteer to test-pilot a glider traveling at such high speeds. At ISNR London, a security conference, I had the opportunity to meet Erich Jelitko, who not only conceived the ultimate boy toy but also enthusiastically test-pilots the glider.

A former special forces operator and German army paratrooper instructor, Jelitko has made more than 50 jumps with the glider.

He took me through a test flight of a simulation of Paris. He demonstrated the glider’s agility by flying through the legs of the Eiffel Tower — not an easy feat at high speed. Soldiers also can opt to train on other city simulations from New York to London.

Currently, planes and pilots are put at risk because soldiers need to jump close to combat areas. Typical high altitude, high-opening, or HAHO, jumps from around 27,000 feet allow soldiers to travel only about 30 miles after exiting the aircraft.

The Gryphon could increase that range fourfold, creating an attack corridor of nearly 125 miles. Unaffected by headwinds or crosswinds because of its favorable lift-to-drag ratio, the glider would allow elite units to reach targets with increased speed, precision and stealth.

The Gryphon’s built-in oxygen supply system allows soldiers to jump from up to 30,000 feet. And with temperatures at that altitude sometimes reaching minus 64 degrees Fahrenheit, every second counts. Even in upwind conditions, the Gryphon could reduce HAHO jump duration to a third, from an average of 45 minutes to just 15, vastly reducing the risk of exposure to extreme cold.

The Gryphon’s designers, SPELCO GbR, are even planning to affix a relatively cheap and small turbo jet, which is used for unmanned military drones. Harnessing that jet, the glider would allow soldiers to jump lower, maintain altitude and travel farther than is currently possible.

With its stealth technology and high speed, the Gryphon will provide maximum surprise and safer entry into target areas. And with the Gryphon virtually invisible to ground and airborne radar, enemy forces would struggle even to detect it.

The stealth and speed capabilities also could be handy for agile hostage rescue operations and rapid reaction to moving targets. SPELCO is developing an electronic system to automate some of the steering to make it easier to fly, more like an airplane. If it succeeds, the average bungee jumper — and not just elite forces with specialized training — can have a go, too.

And those commercially available Gryphons could mean that friendly neighborhood Batmen might be just around the corner.


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## JBS (Apr 28, 2008)

> If it doesn't give you the range then drive or walk.


MFFJM091, you don't seem too impressed with this wing concept, but I think the wing would increase range.

In any case, it may end up being a toy for bungee jumpers and recreational jumpers.



> "...and also being a member of the Golden Knights"


One of the coolest jobs in the military ever, gotta say.




> ...SPELCO is developing an electronic system to automate some of the steering to make it easier to fly, more like an airplane. If it succeeds, the average bungee jumper — and not just elite forces with specialized training — can have a go, too.


 Maybe, since they are going to automate the controls with a computer, perhaps maintaining proficiency won't be as big of  a challenge as it is with HALO and HAHO.



I did another search on it yesterday, and I still haven't found where the SF Soldier is supposed to put this wing whenever they land at their destination.  They're going to have to solve that one sooner or later, unless they plan on treating these like Kleppers or something.


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## Crusader74 (May 14, 2008)

*I think you'll find this interesting JBS!! (from MP.net)*

]
	

	
	
		
		

		
			




























> Yves Rossy, known as the 'Fusion Man,' poses with his jet-powered single wing after flying over the Alps in Bex, Switzerland, Wednesday, May 14, 2008.


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## JBS (May 14, 2008)

Un fuckin bleevable.


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## Hitman2/3 (May 14, 2008)

Looks bad ass. I would love to give it a whirl. Still got to wonder if they happen to have radar and they see a cluster of these thing flying across the sky at a couple hundred miles an hour, what the hell do you do when the send some Migs your way?


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## Crusader74 (May 14, 2008)

*Its in French but...............AWESOME!!*

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ip2NL4nPOLg"]YouTube - Yves Rossy - Fusion Man Part 1 of 2[/ame]


[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XfovZqR7qGo&feature=related"]YouTube - Yves Rossy - Fusion Man Part 2 of 2[/ame]

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dpr2w73QZyM&feature=related"]YouTube - Jet Man[/ame]


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## AWP (May 14, 2008)

Hitman2/3 said:


> what the hell do you do when the send some Migs your way?



I would defecate on myself. Powerfully and repeatedly until the danger passed.


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## Crusader74 (May 14, 2008)

Freefalling said:


> I would defecate on myself. Powerfully and repeatedly until the danger passed.




Until you hope the danger had passed!!1


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