# Hard Times



## mike_cos (Jan 4, 2012)

Tomorrow, the Minister of Defense, Leon Panetta, after an eight-month strategic review, will announce the program of the Pentagon* budget cuts.*
According to press reports the cuts will lead to a further easing of the U.S. presence in Europe ("The review is expected to the proposed removal of another brigade of Army combat troops from Europe, still leaving two brigades on the continent, one administration official said. A brigade Consists of some 3.000 to 4.000 troops DEPENDING ON ITS configuration ") and* renunciation of the so-called "two-warposture" or the ability to fight and win two wars simultaneously.*
Needless to say, decisions that have global relevance of this kind by the U.S. government.
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/01/03/u...-of-reduced-military.html?_r=2&pagewanted=all
http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/01/04/us-usa-defense-strategy-idUSTRE8021P620120104


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## Marauder06 (Jan 4, 2012)

Yep; it's going to start getting tough again. Budget shrinkages almost always include massive personnel cuts, so watch for a big drawdown coming.


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## AWP (Jan 4, 2012)

Iraq and Afghanistan proved we couldn't fight two wars simultaneously and those were in the same theater. Imagine if we had to fight them on opposite ends of the globe.


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## Ranger Psych (Jan 4, 2012)

You have to caveat that though, Free.  The US didn't spin up the war machine anywhere near what it truly could if the legislators got spooled up and stayed spooled up enough to implement all the measures available and that have been used in the past.


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## Manolito (Jan 4, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> Yep; it's going to start getting tough again. Budget shrinkages almost always include massive personnel cuts, so watch for a big drawdown coming.


 Mara will they do like the 70's and end their enlistment early? or will they keep them for the duration with no re-enlistment? A friends Grandson was just let go in the middle of a Navy enlistment along with 2500 other sailors.
Bill


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## Marauder06 (Jan 4, 2012)

Bill, the Navy and Air Force will probably just can a bunch of folks outright, the Army will slow down promotions, make enlisting and re-enlisting harder, and will move towards a "zero defects" mentality, meaning one screwup and you're gone.


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## mike_cos (Jan 4, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Iraq and Afghanistan proved we couldn't fight two wars simultaneously and those were in the same theater. Imagine if we had to fight them on opposite ends of the globe.


Agree... The new Astan Exit Strategy : Go to Hormuz!


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## AWP (Jan 4, 2012)

Ranger Psych said:


> You have to caveat that though, Free. The US didn't spin up the war machine anywhere near what it truly could if the legislators got spooled up and stayed spooled up enough to implement all the measures available and that have been used in the past.


 
I totally agree, however we didn't do that.  Even in the darkest days of both wars (2007-2009) when it was obvious that more troops were needed...more of everything was needed, we didn't do that. We didn't tell anyone we were "in it to win it," we stayed with 12-15 month deployments or 6 month for the AF and whatever the Navy and Marines do. The only way we could fight two wars would be to mibilize the whole of our military and we lacked the will to do so and as you know, capability without will means the capability is useless. Our leadership, suit and uniform, failed us.


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## AWP (Jan 4, 2012)

mike_cos said:


> Agree... The new Astan Exit Strategy : Go to Hormuz!


 
Or Karachi.


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## mike_cos (Jan 4, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Or Karachi.


Do not already have teams operating there?....


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 4, 2012)

If we go to war with Iran while cutting the budget 25+% I will go the fuck off, some people in leadership positions just need to be kicked in the ass every once in a while. Putting our soldiers on the ground with less equipment and funding after 10 years of super gear and subways, is asking for major epic fail. We need to recondition the force before we jump into another war... $0.02


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## DA SWO (Jan 4, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> I totally agree, however we didn't do that. Even in the darkest days of both wars (2007-2009) when it was obvious that more troops were needed...more of everything was needed, we didn't do that. We didn't tell anyone we were "in it to win it," we stayed with 12-15 month deployments or 6 month for the AF and whatever the Navy and Marines do. The only way we could fight two wars would be to mibilize the whole of our military and we lacked the will to do so and as you know, capability without will means the capability is useless. Our leadership, suit and uniform, failed us.


Because two SecDef's refused to ask for additional bodies.  History will record SecDef Rumsfield as a mediocre, or barely good SecDef.  Gates was better, barely.


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## QC (Jan 4, 2012)

It will affect our mil a little with new jets on hold, but IMO the US will focus more on Asia.


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## Poccington (Jan 5, 2012)

Now just watch as European leaders get into a big flap at the thought of the US deciding not to take as big a role in the defence of Europe. God forbid, European leaders will now have to take Defence seriously rather than relying on the big brother that is the US. Seems like karma coming around to bite them on the ass, after the lack of stomach for a fight when it came to choosing whether to make a serious attempt at supporting the US militarily in A'Stan.

As for cuts, well the fiscal reality is that they have to come. However, they need to be very careful where those cuts are made or it'll have serious reprecussions for the military.


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## DA SWO (Jan 5, 2012)

Poccington said:


> Now just watch as European leaders get into a big flap at the thought of the US deciding not to take as big a role in the defence of Europe. God forbid, European leaders will now have to take Defence seriously rather than relying on the big brother that is the US. Seems like karma coming around to bite them on the ass, after the lack of stomach for a fight when it came to choosing whether to make a serious attempt at supporting the US militarily in A'Stan.
> 
> As for cuts, well the fiscal reality is that they have to come. However, they need to be very careful where those cuts are made or it'll have serious reprecussions for the military.


Ironically, for years some of our leaders told us we spent too much (for their internal consumption) and we should cut defense and increase social spending.  We did, and look what happens.

Korea will be our biggest issue. China could whack Taiwan while we are tied up in Korea and Afghanistan; the public wouldn't give a rat's ass (and the RP camp would tell us that not intervening was good.


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## Boon (Jan 5, 2012)

Funny that Panetta said that they plan on retaining their investment in SOF. However, if the focus is due to a shift to Asia, a strong conventional military is pretty necessary (if a war ever broke out with China/Korea).


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## Red Flag 1 (Jan 5, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> Yep; it's going to start getting tough again. Budget shrinkages almost always include massive personnel cuts, so watch for a big drawdown coming.


 
The USAF looks to be well into the throws of downsizing. 0-3's , 0-4's, and even 0-5's are getting the boot after two pass over's for promotion. The 0-4's in particular have been slammed pretty hard lately. Making 0-4, and all the right boxes checked is no insurance policy to retire with twenty. For now, if you are an 0-4 with 18 or more years, your retirement is safe. The 0-5's with two passover's have all been able to retire with twenty or more years.

I remember this same thing going on after Viet Nam. There were riff boards for 0-3's, and competition for 0-4 slots was pretty stiff. I recall an 0-3 Phantom driver who was a POW getting passed over for 0-4; that just blew me away. The other trick played was, "controlled" ORE's. The number of "exceptional" officers was stiffly controlled at around 10-15%. No matter how strong the OER was, the instillation commander could only endorse that 10-15%; that was it. There were quite a few officers in Headquarters positions that got endorsements over those at the operational end of things, the Generals saw them more and knew them better. This happened @ Andrews AFB to the squadron that flew AF One, and all it's little children. The 0-3's were not getting the needed endorsements; including the Operations officer, the pilot for AF Two, and a couple others. They all resigned and went to commercial airlines. There are a whole lotta ways to hurt folks that have stood in harms way for this nation.

I pray this all comes out well; we are still fighting a war. Obama removing troops from Iraq is whistling in the graveyard and counting votes, that's all. We are shaving funds from the wrong programs. If Obama can raise one billion dollars for his re-election "war chest", why not earn an equal amount for the defense of our nation; a real war chest? .

Probably best I stop for now, my teeth are starting to itch, and my hair hurts.

RF 1


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## mike_cos (Jan 5, 2012)

Poccington said:


> Now just watch as European leaders get into a big flap at the thought of the US deciding not to take as big a role in the defence of Europe. God forbid, European leaders will now have to take Defence seriously rather than relying on the big brother that is the US. Seems like karma coming around to bite them on the ass, after the lack of stomach for a fight when it came to choosing whether to make a serious attempt at supporting the US militarily in A'Stan.
> 
> As for cuts, well the fiscal reality is that they have to come. However, they need to be very careful where those cuts are made or it'll have serious reprecussions for the military.


Europe does not need to be defended by you ... rather it was you who ask to Europe for help for Iraq and A'stan after 9 / 11....


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## CDG (Jan 5, 2012)

mike_cos said:


> Europe does not need to be defended by you ... rather it was you who ask to Europe for help for Iraq and A'stan after 9 / 11....


 
Is that so? We asked for help because our leaders didn't have the balls to tell the world community to go fuck themselves while we laid waste to Iraq and Afghanistan.  Europe would not fare well on its own.  I seem to remember two instances in the 20th century where Europe was thanking their lucky stars we decided to send our troops their way.


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## mike_cos (Jan 5, 2012)

CDG said:


> Is that so? We asked for help because our leaders didn't have the balls to tell the world community to go fuck themselves while we laid waste to Iraq and Afghanistan. Europe would not fare well on its own. I seem to remember two instances in the 20th century where Europe was thanking their lucky stars we decided to send our troops their way.


 
2000 years ago Rome was Great.... And US didnt exist....    Hey CDG... We are in 21th century... wake up


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## CDG (Jan 5, 2012)

mike_cos said:


> Hey CDG... We are in 21th century... wake up


 
Indeed we are. A place that Europe as we know it would not have found itself were it not for the US.


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## AWP (Jan 5, 2012)

mike_cos said:


> Europe does not need to be defended by you ... rather it was you who ask to Europe for help for Iraq and A'stan after 9 / 11....


 
I don't know that Ireland is capable of defending Europe.


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## mike_cos (Jan 5, 2012)

CDG said:


> Indeed we are. A place that Europe as we know it not have found itself were it not for the US.


 
If the Communist Europe, rabbits and hypocritical is that we know ... Well, I preferred the first


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## mike_cos (Jan 5, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> I don't know that Ireland is capable of defending Europe.


To defend from what?


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## alibi (Jan 5, 2012)

I know I am asking for a crystal ball answer, but does the same type of effects that will happen to the AD forces apply to NG?  I know a lot of our members were apart of the NG during the 90's, what was it like then?


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## AWP (Jan 5, 2012)

mike_cos said:


> To defend from what?


 
You quoted Poccington, he's from Ireland, hence my reply.


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## mike_cos (Jan 5, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> You quoted Poccington, he's from Ireland, hence my reply.


I knew it... but you did not answer me... to defend from what? Terrorism? Communism? AQ? What?


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## AWP (Jan 5, 2012)

alibi said:


> I know I am asking for a crystal ball answer, but does the same type of effects that will happen to the AD forces apply to NG? I know a lot of our members were apart of the NG during the 90's, what was it like then?


 
It sucked monkey balls. I've posted about it before, but our equipment was 2 generations behind the AD guys, money for training didn't exist, by the late 90's we couldn't even send our reclass soldiers to the AD schools, so we lost them for 18-24 months to a weekend and AT period MOS producing "course." I could go on, but you should get the drift. Our readiness was poor when 9/11 hit.


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## DA SWO (Jan 5, 2012)

mike_cos said:


> Europe does not need to be defended by you ... rather it was you who ask to Europe for help for Iraq and A'stan after 9 / 11....


It was Europe who asked for help in Libya, don't forget that my friend.


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## alibi (Jan 5, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> It sucked monkey balls. I've posted about it before, but our equipment was 2 generations behind the AD guys, money for training didn't exist, by the late 90's we couldn't even send our reclass soldiers to the AD schools, so we lost them for 18-24 months to a weekend and AT period MOS producing "course." I could go on, but you should get the drift. Our readiness was poor when 9/11 hit.


Wow...do you think it will be that bad this time around?

Thank you for the quick reply, btw.


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## mike_cos (Jan 5, 2012)

SOWT said:


> It was Europe who asked for help in Libya, don't forget that my friend.


 
Hey SOWT.... do you wanna make me laugh?... Libya?? LMAO.... Libya is not Europe... it's only Oil.... 70 years ago was Europe cause was Italian.... Gaddaffy duck was your enemy.... not ours...


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## AWP (Jan 5, 2012)

alibi said:


> Wow...do you think it will be that bad this time around?
> 
> Thank you for the quick reply, btw.


 
I can easily see a slow decline. Guys currently in will have some better insight than I on that point.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 5, 2012)

This is what happens when you combine corporate America controlling the govt basically mixed with political ass covering and politicians who can't look past their next election and not see the long term picture in things. Thank God though high tech weapon systems aren't gonna get cut only troops! God knows those F22's have seen plenty of action the last few years.


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## Poccington (Jan 6, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> I don't know that Ireland is capable of defending Europe.


 
Lord knows we'll try though!

Now, just to figure out a way to move our troops onto mainland Europe....


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## Poccington (Jan 6, 2012)

mike_cos said:


> Europe does not need to be defended by you ... rather it was you who ask to Europe for help for Iraq and A'stan after 9 / 11....


 
If another large scale conflict was to happen in Europe, which affected the whole continent, you can bet your bottom bollocks that Europe would be screaming for the US.

How many European countries benefit from a strong military relationship with the US? How many have benefitted from recieving equipment from the US? At recieving training from US personnel?

Europe may not be entirely dependant on the US for it's defence, however, the US and it's military is a major factor in Europe's defence.

As for A'Stan, it's my belief that regardless of support, the US was going in there to clean house and even on it's own, would've done the job. It just so happened that they had a mandate fully approved by European countries... Usually, if you support a major military attack politically, it's just plain good manners to support it militarily too.


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## Manolito (Jan 6, 2012)

mike_cos said:


> I knew it... but you did not answer me... to defend from what? Terrorism? Communism? AQ? What?


 I often thought to protect you from yourselves. If you want to demonize America that is OK with me because you have done more to hurt Europe by taking on the Euro than the US could do in a millenium. After the cold war was over it was interesting to find that target codes for Russian missiles were not just US locations. Take a minute and look at a 30 mega ton contamination radius for a dirty in ground explosion in Europe lets say America may have kept the communists from using that bomb. Just a thought. I for one welcome us coming home from Europe take a look at the money infused in the European economy  military pay checks and the purchase of products and food.

http://www.mapsofworld.com/thematic-maps/world-oil-production-map.html Arrow down on the page and look at the production of oil in barrels. The US exported refined Gasoline and Diesel last year 2011.
Our government officials have not learned technology does not replace warriors.
Bill


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## TH15 (Jan 6, 2012)

mike_cos said:


> Europe does not need to be defended by you ... rather it was you who ask to Europe for help for Iraq and A'stan after 9 / 11....


All I'm going to say is that it wasn't just Americans who were killed in those towers, that Pennsylvania field, and the Pentagon.


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## DA SWO (Jan 6, 2012)

mike_cos said:


> Hey SOWT.... do you wanna make me laugh?... Libya?? LMAO.... Libya is not Europe... it's only Oil.... 70 years ago was Europe cause was Italian.... Gaddaffy duck was your enemy.... not ours...


Iraq and Afghanistan are not Europe or America either.
We went to Libya because YOUR politicians asked, it's been a two-way street for a long time.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jan 6, 2012)

You can go back and forth with all that politics and history forever, hell you go back far enough and you can blame a germ for your woes and troubles. It all goes out the window when the bullets fly, sadly it falls to the warrior class to take the brunt while politicians sit back. Then again at least we happy few can hold our heads high with our honor intact.


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## policemedic (Jan 6, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> I don't know that Ireland is capable of defending Europe.


 
Outdrinking...definitely!


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## mike_cos (Jan 6, 2012)

Poccington said:


> If another large scale conflict was to happen in Europe, which affected the whole continent, you can bet your bottom bollocks that Europe would be screaming for the US.


What do you mean with "large scale conflict"? And What's Europe? EU? NATO? Both? Russia Included? *B*ut above all what is the threat? Maghreb? Meddle-Est? Sarkozy? Merkel? The Queen?



Poccington said:


> How many European countries benefit from a strong military relationship with the US? How many have benefitted from recieving equipment from the US? At recieving training from US personnel?


 
How many benefits has US on european territories in exchange of this training and equipments? how much sovereignty must give the europe?



Poccington said:


> As for A'Stan, it's my belief that regardless of support, the US was going in there to clean house and even on it's own, would've done the job. It just so happened that they had a mandate fully approved by European countries... Usually, if you support a major military attack politically, it's just plain good manners to support it militarily too.


 
Indeed *we are proud to support America* politically and militarily and will continue too.




Manolito said:


> I often thought to protect you from yourselves.
> Bill


 

Oh thanks Daddy... (Bill I'm very sorry for this reply my friend) the last time you defended the city of my father the bombings have claimed more than 20,000 civilian deaths (collateral damages they said)



Manolito said:


> If you want to demonize America that is OK with me because you have done more to hurt Europe by taking on the Euro than the US could do in a millenium.
> Bill


 
I do not want to demonize America ... but I do not recognize the America of a time..... Euro?..LOL that's the Europe I wanna fight.... Bill you know I love America for me is the best Country to live... (After Italy of course)



Manolito said:


> Our government officials have not learned technology does not replace warriors.
> Bill


 
Holy words Bill... that's the problem.... Too many people think that wars are won only with EoTech, NVG, Satellites, Computers, Drones.. and so on...



TH15 said:


> All I'm going to say is that it wasn't just Americans who were killed in those towers, that Pennsylvania field, and the Pentagon.


 
Indeed.. thank goodness that you want to defend us...



SOWT said:


> We went to Libya because YOUR politicians asked, it's been a two-way street for a long time.


 
I know very well the reasons why you were in Libya... and I told you... for any claims call DGSE and Sarko....


Anyway volks* I want to clarify that I am one of your supporters* ... you do not know those in Europe who want to fight you...

God bless you all


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## TH15 (Jan 6, 2012)

mike_cos said:


> Indeed.. thank goodness that you want to defend us...


Is that sarcasm? I don't quite follow.


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## mike_cos (Jan 6, 2012)

TH15 said:


> Is that sarcasm? I don't quite follow.


 
The sarcasm is the resource of a weak mind .. The truth hurts. really  (Anonymus)

I look weak?


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## TH15 (Jan 6, 2012)

mike_cos said:


> The sarcasm is the resource of a weak mind .. The truth hurts. really (Anonymus)
> 
> I look weak?


Plainly put: I don't follow your post and would like a more in depth explanation so I can address it properly.

Thank you,
TH15


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## mike_cos (Jan 6, 2012)

TH15 said:


> Plainly put: I don't follow your post and would like a more in depth explanation so I can address it properly.
> 
> Thank you,
> TH15


 
Anytime... you are welcome.
Mike


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## Manolito (Jan 6, 2012)

The End
Bill


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## mike_cos (Jan 6, 2012)

Focus on thread please.. LOL.... (Hard times.... )


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## tigerstr (Jan 29, 2012)

Since I am Greek, I think I should put a few thoughts in this thread.

It is a fact that for decades Europe has been allowed to "hide" behind American military capabilities, be they nuclear or conventional. A look at the percentage of military budgets compared to GDP in the two sides of the Atlantic, for the last 4-5 decades, icluding most of the Cold War, tells this story quite objectively.

Mike_cos asked a good question when he said "which" Europe, because even today *there is no such thing as a politicaly or economicaly unified "Europe",* and maybe no "present danger" for mainland European nations, in the clear way Americans perceive it after 9/11.

I for one, am already thinking more in terms of... "The West", including most parts of the former Warsaw Pact.

Check the situation of the world right now and maybe *we will all discover* that there are other powers evolving very rapidly, powers that are much more distant to the ideals of what we would call "Western Civilization" and "Western Democracy", powers that have enormous populations and an ever growing global economic and political significance.

I think it would be a good idea for both sides of the Atlantic to stick together in the coming times, but I am not so sure that its going to happen.

If it doesnt,  it may prove regretable for all of us.


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