# Genes may tell who will develop PTSD



## BloodStripe (Aug 25, 2014)

http://www.defenseone.com/technology/2014/08/how-genes-could-predict-who-will-get-ptsd/91280/

Interesting concept that seems to be gaining sombre traction.


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## BloodStripe (Aug 25, 2014)

http://www.psychiatrist.com/_layout...article/Pages/2014/aheadofprint/13m08715.aspx


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## RackMaster (Aug 25, 2014)

That's a dangerous path to go down.   I could see it as a potential identifier of Mental Health problems down the road but to specifically say PTSD; that's like genes can predict future car accidents.


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## BloodStripe (Aug 25, 2014)

PTS is a mental disorder, not the same thing as a car wreck, bad analogy. I do think it's saying what you said as it being an identifier though.  If science is at the point to start modifying genetics, that would make future PTS cases preventable. That certinally opens up another can of worms though (modifying genes).


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## RackMaster (Aug 25, 2014)

Not a bad analogy, you don't need to be in combat to suffer from PTS; Post Traumatic Stress, not Post Combat...  Car wrecks are traumatic, rape is traumatic, spending time on here is traumatic...  

If they modified the genes to prevent future cases, then those individuals would be giving up their humanity.  Empathy and emotion are key factors in PTS.  They would be "drones"...

It's honorable to want to prevent it through genetic modification but I think research $ can be better spent on treatments of the current suffering and eliminating mental health stigma.  



> *What is post-traumatic stress disorder, or PTSD?*
> PTSD is an anxiety disorder that some people get* after seeing or living through a dangerous event.*
> 
> When in danger, it’s natural to feel afraid. This fear triggers many split-second changes in the body to prepare to defend against the danger or to avoid it. This “fight-or-flight” response is a healthy reaction meant to protect a person from harm. But in PTSD, this reaction is changed or damaged. People who have PTSD may feel stressed or frightened even when they’re no longer in danger.
> ...


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## BloodStripe (Aug 25, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> Not a bad analogy, you don't need to be in combat to suffer from PTS; Post Traumatic Stress, not Post Combat...  Car wrecks are traumatic, rape is traumatic, spending time on here is traumatic...
> 
> If they modified the genes to prevent future cases, then those individuals would be giving up their humanity.  Empathy and emotion are key factors in PTS.  They would be "drones"...
> 
> It's honorable to want to prevent it through genetic modification but I think research $ can be better spent on treatments of the current suffering and eliminating mental health stigma.



Perhaps I misunderstood your analogy then.  I took it as it can predict those who will be in a car wreck ,as opposed to those who will suffer a debilitating disorder as a result from it. Because you are correct that you don't need to be in direct combat to suffer from it.

And I mentioned opening a can of worms with genetic modification because it can lead to a whole spew of things, like you stated. I do not think what they are talking about with modifying genes to help reduce PTS would create a human robot though. But looking at that, without trying to sound like a troll here (I am simply trying to look at this from an objective standpoint), but could that not be conceived as a good thing? What is the definition of obedience? Would having a "drone" of a conventional soldier in a conventional war be beneficial? I can see many pros to a regular infantryman simply following orders. If they can (I do not think it is possible to yet modify genes as it could solve lots of different mental health disorders) modify genes, could they not reverse it back after an individuals enlistment is over? Epigenetics could be the next "thing" for the military to explore (perhaps they already are and we just don't know about it).

Epigenetics: the study of changes in organisms caused by modification of gene expression rather than alteration of the genetic code itself. http://science.howstuffworks.com/life/genetic/epigenetics.htm


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## Ranger Psych (Aug 25, 2014)

So I guess a natural reaction to an unnatural situation, and the subsequent unnatural reaction to natural situations isn't normal and is a genetic flaw.


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## reed11b (Aug 25, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> So I guess a natural reaction to an unnatural situation, and the subsequent unnatural reaction to natural situations isn't normal and is a genetic flaw.


 It's the inability to self regulate between the two with time; not the initial reactions themselves. Nor would I call it a flaw. 1/3 to 3/8ths of the population is too large a group to call a "flaw".
Reed


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## pardus (Aug 25, 2014)

I don't want to dismiss it out of hand, but I'm seriously suspicious about this being a gene problem.


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## Gunz (Aug 26, 2014)

There ain't no silver bullet. A lot of things can effect the severity of PTSD, like how supportive or unsupportive your environment is when you leave the battlefield. If it's unsupportive or downright hostile (like it was during Vietnam), you're going to bottle it up and it's going to fester. For years. If it's supportive, the symptoms might ebb sooner. But either way, once you've spent considerable time in the shit you're a different cat from what you were before...and you always will be. War is a part of your character.  

I don't give much credence to these studies. Everybody's trying to figure it the fuck out, lable it, pin it down. And there are different agendas at play behind each study. PTSD is a business for some; they make their living off it. The government would like to be able to inject you with a PTSD-antedote so you don't cost them any money.


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## pardus (Aug 26, 2014)

I'm currently reading a book about New Zealand Soldiers in Vietnam. They discuss PTSD from the perspective of the Soldiers themselves to various studies done. One factor was interesting to me, the guys that left the service soon after combat had a significantly higher rate of PTSD than the guys that continued to serve afterwards. Speculation seems to be on the better peer support group that comes from remaining in the service rather than those that left and had no one/few people of common experience to turn to/be surrounded by. 

I've always been of the belief that the slow troop ship returns of service personal post WWII was a much better way of returning home than a much faster flight that potentially has people in their living room mere hours after being in combat. 

Interestingly, my old unit back home in NZ would get us drunk the first night out of the bush in the confines of the bush or in a contained military area and let us blow off steam there,  before releasing us into the public the next day.


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## Gunz (Aug 27, 2014)

pardus said:


> ...One factor was interesting to me, the guys that left the service soon after combat had a significantly higher rate of PTSD than the guys that continued to serve afterwards. Speculation seems to be on the better peer support group that comes from remaining in the service rather than those that left and had no one/few people of common experience to turn to/be surrounded by....


 
I've always believed this to be true.  You're "sheltered" to a degree when you remain in the military environment. You get out with the sheeple with little or no decompression and you're gonna be putting your fist through a wall pretty soon.


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## reed11b (Aug 27, 2014)

pardus said:


> One factor was interesting to me, the guys that left the service soon after combat had a significantly higher rate of PTSD than the guys that continued to serve afterwards. Speculation seems to be on the better peer support group that comes from remaining in the service rather than those that left and had no one/few people of common experience to turn to/be surrounded by.


OR, those most affected were more likely to get out of the service. Pure speculation. Something to keep in mind is that EMS, Fire, S&R and Police have nearly identical rates of PTSD as Combat veterans if the recent studies are to be believed. (I'll look for the links) This supports the idea of predisposition.
Reed


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## RackMaster (Aug 27, 2014)

reed11b said:


> OR, those most affected were more likely to get out of the service. Pure speculation. Something to keep in mind is that EMS, Fire, S&R and Police have nearly identical rates of PTSD as Combat veterans if the recent studies are to be believed. (I'll look for the links) This supports the idea of predisposition.
> Reed



All those communities are exposed to very similar repetitive trauma, I think that's the key factor; not predisposition.  In most cases of PTS in which they leave service, outside factors (family life stress) play a big part of it and are major triggers.


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## Totentanz (Aug 27, 2014)

IMO, the more dangerous part of this is the gross oversimplification of a complex (and not-even-close-to-fully-understood) issue down to a binary variable.  "Boom, you've got the PTSD gene"... now it's all boiled down into one nice easy test, minimal thought required.


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## 8654Maine (Aug 27, 2014)

^^^That pretty much sums it up.

"


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## reed11b (Aug 27, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> All those communities are exposed to very similar repetitive trauma, I think that's the key factor; not predisposition.  In most cases of PTS in which they leave service, outside factors (family life stress) play a big part of it and are major triggers.


 Yes, perhaps even more trauma is some cases, but the rates are (more or less) 10% have the full diagnostic symptomology right now and 30-40% will meet it over there life time. Why not higher, they are constantly and REPEATEDLY exposed to trauma? When people make comments that everyone that see's combat gets PTS (PTSD) it 100% does not meet with my 6 years of working with combat vets for it.  That said, I endorse @Totentanz  statement fully.
Reed


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## Gunz (Aug 27, 2014)

With respect...EMS/Fire/S&R/Police have to deal with stress issues that differ somewhat from combat. With the _occasional _exception of a relatively small percentage of LEOs, these guys are not subjected to frequent enemy attack nor are they engaged in a sustained daily effort to kill people. They usually do not have to deal with hypervigilance, sleep deprivation and the physical challenges of combat operations, i.e., humping 60-70lbs of gear up and down hills while staying alert for ambushes and IEDs.


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## pardus (Aug 27, 2014)

reed11b said:


> OR, those most affected were more likely to get out of the service. Pure speculation. Something to keep in mind is that EMS, Fire, S&R and Police have nearly identical rates of PTSD as Combat veterans if the recent studies are to be believed. (I'll look for the links) *This supports the idea of predisposition.*
> Reed



No it doesn't, it supports that both jobs are stressful by nature and sometimes involve being exposed to trauma... which can lead to PTSD.



reed11b said:


> Yes, perhaps even more trauma is some cases, but the rates are (more or less) 10% have the full diagnostic symptomology right now and 30-40% will meet it over there life time. Why not higher*, they are constantly and REPEATEDLY exposed to trauma*? When people make comments that everyone that see's combat gets PTS (PTSD) it 100% does not meet with my 6 years of working with combat vets for it.  That said, I endorse @Totentanz  statement fully.
> Reed



No one is "constantly" exposed to trauma, repeatedly yes. 



Ocoka One said:


> With respect...EMS/Fire/S&R/Police have to deal with stress issues that differ somewhat from combat. With the _occasional _exception of a relatively small percentage of LEOs, these guys are not subjected to frequent enemy attack nor are they engaged in a sustained daily effort to kill people. *They usually do not have to deal with hypervigilance,* sleep deprivation and the physical challenges of combat operations, i.e., humping 60-70lbs of gear up and down hills while staying alert for ambushes and IEDs.



I agree with the exception of the bolded. I'd say cops are more vigillent than Military personal in general.


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## DA SWO (Aug 27, 2014)

Another issue I have is treating all forms of PTSD the same.
Most of us have it to some degree, some carry on with minimal impact.
Some drink, destroy their lives.
Genetic mutation isn't always the answer.


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## AWP (Aug 27, 2014)

If someone published a study linking a gene to a heart or other organ deficiency, I could get on board, but the brain? Seriously? Because the best in their field know exactly how the brain functions? Studies show that genetics can play a role in mental illness, but it isn't a given. Genetics increase your odds, but they aren't a slam dunk. Just because your odds are increased that doesn't mean you'll have PTSD or anything else for that matter. You're more at risk and even that isn't a given.

We're talking about the body, how it processes information, the events in question, and one's background....and we're supposed to cling to the theory that a gene will solve a gazillion-variable puzzle?


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## El Cid (Aug 27, 2014)

This has some research done by a SOF soldier about why SOF personnel have lower rates of PTSD than the rest of the military/society.

https://www.exbellum.com/blog/1-ptsd-in-sof-personnel

Agree that not all PTSD is the same, while all experience trauma, trauma itself can take MANY different forms.


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## DA SWO (Aug 27, 2014)

El Cid said:


> This has some research done by a SOF soldier about why SOF personnel have lower rates of PTSD than the rest of the military/society.
> 
> https://www.exbellum.com/blog/1-ptsd-in-sof-personnel
> 
> Agree that not all PTSD is the same, while all experience trauma, trauma itself can take MANY different forms.


I would be interested in seeing how Rangers compare to the rest of ARSOF.


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## El Cid (Aug 27, 2014)

You'd think after 12 years or so of constant conflict/war/whateverthef*cktheycallit, they would already have the data on this.   Makes a good argument though... SEAL's training pipeline is longer so maybe they do have more of a chance to mature and integrate with their teammates more tightly than other services are given a chance to do....I should say for full disclosure, I have no idea how long the other services schools are, just pointing out the argument the author makes seems reasonable to consider.


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## x SF med (Aug 28, 2014)

Here's a point - it has been noted that the use of amnesiacs (notably complex phenylamides - ketamine and the like) in addition to analgesics and anesthetics in the initial combat care of wounded has reduced the amount of PTSD in those wounded soldiers.  It is believed that removing the memory of the event while in many cases leaving the patient 'awake' to render some modicum of self care and responsiveness to the provider reduces the causative cognitive function that triggers PTSD - no immediate memory, less long term metal effects.   This study is still ongoing, and is being compiled at Ft Sam and Walter Reed as part of the ongoing care for grievously wounded service members.


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## DasBoot (Aug 28, 2014)

x SF med said:


> Here's a point - it has been noted that the use of amnesiacs (notably complex phenylamides - ketamine and the like) in addition to analgesics and anesthetics in the initial combat care of wounded has reduced the amount of PTSD in those wounded soldiers.  It is believed that removing the memory of the event while in many cases leaving the patient 'awake' to render some modicum of self care and responsiveness to the provider reduces the causative cognitive function that triggers PTSD - no immediate memory, less long term metal effects.   This study is still ongoing, and is being compiled at Ft Sam and Walter Reed as part of the ongoing care for grievously wounded service members.


There is a similar method being employed by psychologists. I read about it's a few years ago- essentially, they hypnotize the patient into re-remembering the situation. 


> Can post traumatic stress disorder, suffered by one in five service members coming home from Afghanistan and Iraq and a contributing factor in suicides, homicides and drug addiction, be treated with the wave of a few fingers?
> 
> Researchers from the University of South Florida's College of Nursing believe it can. And they are using part of a $2.1 million U.S. Army grant to prove it.
> 
> ...


The rest of the article- 
http://tbo.com/news/can-a-wave-of-the-hand-ward-off-wars-wounds-209381


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## Gunz (Aug 28, 2014)

DasBoot said:


> There is a similar method being employed by psychologists. I read about it's a few years ago- essentially, they hypnotize the patient into re-remembering the situation.


 
I'm one of those people who looks at psychiatrists/psychologists as one step up from faith healers and snake charmers...so I'll never be able to buy into hypnotism as a treatment for anything no matter how many fingers are being waved.  That doesn't mean the story in your link isn't worthwhile, it just means I'm a skeptic.

The only traumatic or life-threatening event I _can't_ recall involved loss of consciousness and  severe concussion. I'm guessing that the use of amnesiacs--described above by x SF Med--would be to duplicate the role your brain plays when it induces "natural amnesia" during head trauma...?


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## Ranger Psych (Aug 28, 2014)

Eye movement/tracking therapy actually is a valid technique. It's nothing like hynotism so don't even think about that shit in that manner. It's simply setting up a stage where it's distracting and arguably somewhat annoying/confusing while you're recounting your situations. I haven't gone through any sessions myself, however I've seen one and I can see how it would work... and also saw myself, with my untrained eye other than "I be fucked up and know it" that the guys going through it had an obviously increased quality of life.


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## Trinity (Oct 23, 2015)

Ranger Psych said:


> Eye movement/tracking therapy actually is a valid technique. It's nothing like hynotism so don't even think about that shit in that manner. It's simply setting up a stage where it's distracting and arguably somewhat annoying/confusing while you're recounting your situations. I haven't gone through any sessions myself, however I've seen one and I can see how it would work... and also saw myself, with my untrained eye other than "I be fucked up and know it" that the guys going through it had an obviously increased quality of life.



EMDR, I have not experienced it, but am going to obtain training to use it, it's good to hear that you perceived it as effective, I am interested in learning what you saw in the session that looked to be useful for creating a better quality of life,  (I'm a CA lic therapist, working to learn all I can to help ease the suffering of veterans with trauma disorders.)


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 23, 2015)

What I saw was results in terms of the forced multitasking of a neurologically stimulating event (having to track a moving object visually does require some concentration) and then while maintaining that focus on that, discussion/recollection/etc of events. It seemed to cause processing on a different level of the events that were key to that individual that resulted in a lesser overall mental impact. I'm not a psychologist or anything like that, but I did notice a positive change in those that went through. Less overall symptomatic displays after multiple treatments, and the people going though it also stated that they felt there was something going on and that they had less personally noticed issues.


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## policemedic (Oct 23, 2015)

I've seen the elephant a time or two; certainly much less than many SS menbers.  Aside from pulling the trigger several times I've more often had to make a decision whether or not to drop the hammer. I'm in my 24th year of service; I guess that makes me old. Not Troll old, of course; that's impossible. 

The reason I believe I don't have PTS is that I had good training geared specifically towards what I would go through in/after a shooting or other critical incident.  From the psychological and physiological phenomena associated with the events to the process of the aftermath nothing was a surprise.  Frankly the more often it happened the easier it was. 

I think it's important to understand what is likely to happen and to have the support of a group of warriors during and after. 

That's not to say PTS can't occur after something other than a shooting or combat experience. It can. But I think understanding the mental and emotional roller coaster is key to managing it.


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## Brill (Oct 23, 2015)

policemedic said:


> The reason I believe I don't have PTS is that I had *good training geared specifically towards what I would go through* in/after a shooting or other critical incident.  From the psychological and physiological phenomena associated with the events to the process of *the aftermath nothing was a surprise*.  Frankly the more often it happened the easier it was.



Key points why live fire is so valuable (as well as solidifying trust/confidence in team mates).


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## Gunz (Oct 23, 2015)

policemedic said:


> ...and to have the support of a group of warriors during and after...


 
This was the most beneficial experience/therapy for me, although the "after" came way after.

It wasn't until the late 90s and the internet that some of us we were finally reunited with our bros...and what an intense emotional experience. For some guys it was too much to take at one time after so many years of denial. For others, like me,  it didn't kill the demons but it was the start of the road back...


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## DA SWO (Oct 23, 2015)

My issues started after retirement.
I think the multiple TBI's probably reduced my coping abilities, even so it's just mild PTSD.


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## policemedic (Oct 23, 2015)

There's no question that TBI is a factor.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 23, 2015)

I don't know about the genetic possibility of being more likely to have X Y Z. I think any and all ideas should be explored, well except for drinking yourself numb, tried it for several years, it doesn't work.


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