# Case Study #3:  Rules of Engagement



## Marauder06 (Jan 5, 2009)

OK, time for another case study.

Here's how this works- I post a situation, anyone who wants to can make responses in this thread, the thread evolves over time based on your responses, and at the end I put it all together into a little story for your entertainment.  Example:  http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5689

Please note the disclaimer that this is pure fiction and except where specifically indicated otherwise, NONE OF THE STUFF IN THESE CASE STUDIES REALLY HAPPENED.

Here we go:

You and two of your buddies are having drinks at the bar of an upscale restaurant in downtown New York City.  Having just returned from a deployment to Iraq, you're noisy but not disruptive.  When you go to settle your tab, the bartender tells you that one of the other patrons who overheard part of your conversations left $100 with the bartender to cover your tab, along with the note "Thank you for your service." Since your tab only came to $30, you do what any Joe would- you sit down to drink $70 more.  After all, you want your anonymous benefactor to get his money's worth, don't you?

As you are finally getting ready to leave, one of the few remaining patrons approaches you.  You think he's another well-wisher, but it soon becomes apparent he is anything but.  He asks if you are soldiers; you say yes.  He asks if you have been in Iraq; you reply in the affirmative.  His English isn't perfect, but it's clear he's a fan of Osama bin Laden and is not a fan of yours.  He curses the three of you loudly in Arabic, spits on the floor, and identifies himself as a member of al Qaeda.  He says something about his great leader, al Zarqawi (who at the time of this case study is still alive), and before any of you can respond he walks outside, where you can see him standing at the curb, waiting for a taxi.

Your two mates want to follow this self-identified al Qaeda individual outside; one of them wants to "kill that al Qaeda son of a bitch."  One points out that Iraq your commander told you that you were allowed to engage and destroy individuals you positively identified as members of al Qaeda, regardless of the situation.  Your other friend adds that as Soldiers, you have the obligation to "support and defend the Constitution of the United States, foreign and domestic," so you have the obligation to at least apprehend this guy. 

so

1) can you do anything to the self-identified al Qaeda guy out front on the curb?

2)  what do you do?


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## moobob (Jan 5, 2009)

I detain him and begin interrogating immediately.

If he is the real deal, we drop him off outside the nearest FBI office hog tied with a typed list of "areas of interest" to pursue. 

If he is not, punch him in the face a few times and dump him off somewhere, preferably the psyche ward of the local hospital.

Treat the incident as if it is classified and never speak of it again. If it ever comes back to us, deny all knowledge of the incident. Since I do not live in New York, the odds of them ever figuring out who me and my buddy are = extremely low.


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## moobob (Jan 5, 2009)

Other than that, get a good physical description, ask around and see if anyone at the bar knows the guy, starting with the bartenders. Report him to my unit CI rep, and the FBI.

Either or works for me. Situation depending. We all gotta do our part to fight the GWOT :) Damn posse commitatus.


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## JJ sloan (Jan 5, 2009)

Contact law enforcement, get the number of the cab that he gets into.  No need to get involved... legally, this would not work out in the favor of the soldiers due to the presence of alcohol and the probable assault that would take place.  Highly doubt that an al Qaeda operative would openly reveal his status, which would make me doubt his story and not want to incur assault charges... big deal breaker for a security clearance.

But I would... first, make fun of his foolish smelly ass by discussing all of the booger eating, man loving turds that have been stacked up like chord wood during my deployment.  Then I would question his committment to his leadership by asking him why the hell he is in the United States and not fighting for his cause.


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## pardus (Jan 5, 2009)

Call the terrorist hotline/911 and report him. Between the three of you you have a description, follow if need be but under no circumstances engage him.


Mara, if this takes 6 mths like the first one, i'm going to hunt you down lol


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## The91Bravo (Jan 5, 2009)

pardus762 said:


> Call the terrorist hotline/911 and report him. Between the three of you you have a description, follow if need be but under no circumstances engage him.






Exactly what I would recommend.

As a LEO, I would be armed (but if that is the case, than $100 in a bar would be alot of Coka-Cola) I would follow him, call 911, tell them that an off duty officer is following a _possible_ terrorist, and need an officer.  Once they arrived I would tell them the exact nature of the contact with him, and let them do their job.

If the dude decided that it was his time to meet Allah, I would do everything within my power to help him along.  But would not putting myself in jail over a piece of shit.



pardus762 said:


> Mara, if this takes 6 mths like the first one, i'm going to hunt you down lol



Can I help?


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## Ex3 (Jan 6, 2009)

$100 at a downtown bar might buy each guy 3 drinks, but 2 is more likely.  :doh:


I'm with Pardus, note the cab number and call the FBI.


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## Hush (Jan 6, 2009)

Drag him in the alley and start water-boarding him with the $100 of booze you just drank.  

Very interesting hypothetical.  Being drunk is a real kicker.  Kinda makes your actions viewed in a different light by a passer-by or first responder.  Seeing how you're in the US, and an actual AQ operative probably wouldnt expose himself like that, a sober rational person would most likely see him for what he is...an unbalanced Arab probably with mental problems (or a typical fundamentalist muslim) but being a half in the bag soldier, I would have that sumbitch is getting tackled and shackled.  In the light of day, he would be released, unless he had subway plans on him, and you would probably be charged with assault.  Hopefully somebody with a brain would pass his name on to the feebs, and they could at least look into him.  Interesting......

Wait!  I think I just found the fatal flaw in this hypothetical!  If this purported crazy Arabic Al-Qaeda member really existed.....why would he be waiting at the curb for a cab?  Wouldnt he be driving his own cab instead?


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## Olive Drab (Jan 6, 2009)

pardus762 said:


> Call the terrorist hotline


do they charge by the minute?


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## arizonaguide (Jan 6, 2009)

I would attempt to follow and report, but:


> Seeing how you're in the US, and an actual AQ operative probably wouldnt expose himself like that, a sober rational person would most likely see him for what he is...an unbalanced Arab probably with mental problems (or a typical fundamentalist muslim).



Follow and report.


moobob said:


> Other than that, get a good physical description, ask around and see if anyone at the bar knows the guy, starting with the bartenders. Report him to my unit CI rep, and the FBI.



Two buddies return to bar to ask around, while YOU Get the Cab number, attempt to follow, attempt to get any tangible evidence:
Drink glass, Bottle, Follow and detain taxi, any kind of identification (fingerprints, etc). that you can pass along to FBI.


Perhaps you may be able to get prints off the Shoe he threw... (or am I getting my stories confused?)


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## pardus (Jan 6, 2009)

Olive Drab said:


> do they charge by the minute?



Yes, but less than the gay hotline you call nightly!


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## Mac_NZ (Jan 6, 2009)

You weren't one of those types that gave the Malays Kiwi rats and told them it was pork after they ate it were you?


As to the hypothetical scenario:
My first thought was stab him with a broken bottle and throw him in a dumpster but there would have been a large number of witnesses in the bar so that gives that plan the Kibosh.  I'll go with everyone else and notify the authorities but first I would photograph him as best I could with my cell phone and hopefully my mates would the same. 

Even if he is just mouthing off its better to be safe than sorry, I think a couple of people tried being safe when some Arabic sorts asked for flying lessons.


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## car (Jan 6, 2009)

Don't confront the fucker any further, don't bring the war back to the streets of NYC, don't try to be super-spook and track the guy (Grab another taxi - "Follow that cab!")

Calm your buddies down, make sure that you have a description between the three of you, get the cab number, and call the cops.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 6, 2009)

So, what about a print/address somehow?
If he paid all cash, he could be completely "in the wind".


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## Chopstick (Jan 6, 2009)

Hush said:


> Wait!  I think I just found the fatal flaw in this hypothetical!  If this purported crazy Arabic Al-Qaeda member really existed.....why would he be waiting at the curb for a cab?  Wouldnt he be driving his own cab instead?



Ditto that as well as..why the fuck is he in a bar surrounded by the demon rum?  I thought they didnt drink alcohol?:uhh::2c:


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## JJ sloan (Jan 6, 2009)

Chopstick said:


> Ditto that as well as..why the fuck is he in a bar surrounded by the demon rum?  I thought they didnt drink alcohol?:uhh::2c:



Good point.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 6, 2009)

They do make exceptions on that rule in the interest of killing infidels.
There is an "official" waiver on that rule...but I can't remember the Islamic "name" of it.

I also wonder if during his "tirade" and yelling about alQuida, if I wouldn't first be looking for any strange packages around the bar?

Hey Marauder, do you still have a link to Case study #1?


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## pardus (Jan 6, 2009)

Funnily enough something very similar happened in real life to myself and xSF med in NYC, except there were two terrorists/supporters and they were with/associated with one of the IRA groups.  :2c:


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## Hush (Jan 6, 2009)

About as plausable as a CIA operative breaking his cover in Beirut confront somebody from AQ, make a scene, and spit on the floor.  Only over there, he'd be killed pretty quick.  

Also, I dont know if you've ever dealt with the police before, especially in NYC, but if you call in a description of an Arab male you suspect of being a terrorist at 2 am......the desk sergeant is going to roll his eyes, and give you a "Ok sir, we'll be sure to follow up on it."  Never to be heard from again.  Like they're gonna track down some arab in NYC off a phone tip, with nothing more to go on than a DESCRIPTION.  Tan, ugly, beard.  This hypothetical calls for a shit or get off the pot answer.  Detain him, or let it pass.  Anything inbetween in the real world, probably aint gonna get any results.


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## Hush (Jan 6, 2009)

car said:


> super-spook



Interestingly enough, I just heard Clint Eastwood use that term in Gran Torino, but I dont remember the movie being about spies.........


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## AssadUSMC (Jan 6, 2009)

moobob said:


> I detain him and begin interrogating immediately.
> 
> If he is the real deal, we drop him off outside the nearest FBI office hog tied with a typed list of "areas of interest" to pursue.
> 
> ...



I'm with you 100% on this.  Same same...


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## Totentanz (Jan 6, 2009)

I don't have the experience that y'all do, but somehow engaging someone like that on the streets of a major city in the US doesn't strike me as the brightest idea I've ever had (esp if I'm not 100% sober).  And it seems that this could backfire quickly if local authorities don't know what you're doing.

I'd try to ID, call the FBI and try to go that route, but even if that route doesn't work, I'd still err on the side of caution.  If he's willing/stupid enough to do it once, he'll probably do it again, and he's probably not the sneakiest SOB out there... :2c:


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## JJ sloan (Jan 6, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> I'm with you 100% on this.  Same same...



That's what is wrong with our military today... everyone wants to get the low hanging fruit.  Why not turn him in to someone who knows what the hell they are doing in an attempt to catch some bigger fish?


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## pardus (Jan 6, 2009)

My guess would be that there is about a 98% chance this guy is a poser anyway.


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## AssadUSMC (Jan 6, 2009)

JJ sloan said:


> That's what is wrong with our military today... everyone wants to get the low hanging fruit.  Why not turn him in to someone who knows what the hell they are doing in an attempt to catch some bigger fish?



I'm pretty sure that's what I was agreeing with (i.e. hand him over to the FBI after a little "chit chat").  I'm all for the "big picture".


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## JJ sloan (Jan 6, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> I'm pretty sure that's what I was agreeing with (i.e. hand him over to the FBI after a little "chit chat").  I'm all for the "big picture".



My bad... misread your post.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 6, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Hey Marauder, do you still have a link to Case study #1?



http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5493

/////

OK, let's take a break from the storyline for a minute and take a look at the underlaying hypothetical.  You're a Soldier, who has sworn an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.  This guy self PID's as al Qaeda.  He shows you his membership card, a tatoo, a pic of himself and bin Laden... whatever passes for positive ID with them.  He's AQ.  Your country is engaged in a Global War on Terror.  Here's an AQ member right here in front of you.  Can you engage this individual like you could if you were back in Baghdad?  Why or why not?


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## arizonaguide (Jan 6, 2009)

Legally I think you COULD detain him for a short while for the police (concerned citizens).
Positive ID?  Hmmmmm.  In my case I think me and the boys are still doing some recon.
Not sure I'd detain him off the street, or at all.  If he really has been PosID, be cautious that it could be a trap for over-eager soldiers.  And counterintel may want to play him, without him knowing he's under investigation.

I think for me it's (still) "eyes on", and same time call in the big boys (FBI).  
Get as much further ID data as possible. Swab/save the spit for DNA sample? Fingerprints on empty glass? Follow that Cab.  Of course THAT "next cab" could be a trap for over-eager soldiers, too.

Good challenging scenario Marauder.


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## car (Jan 6, 2009)

No. 

The rules are different here than there, although the lines seem to be blurring lately (see: "Blackwater Five"). But, no, unless you're legit LE, you can't detain the bastard. Report it, try to keep eyes on, continue to report. But as we'd all like to "take him into alley and waterboard him," I really don't think you can apprehend the dude - within the law - without an assload of problems afterwards. The ACLU would have a field day with you - right or wrong.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 6, 2009)

I think Car is correct.
I think the closest you could do is a "citizen's arrest" and it would not only slow/blow further undercover investigation, but could tie up 3 soldiers (and your superiors) in bullshit court/ACLU grief for months!

Eyes on(watch for trap), call FBI. Save evidence.


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## Gypsy (Jan 6, 2009)

Marauder06 said:


> Can you engage this individual *like you could if you were back in Baghdad*?  Why or why not?



Well here's my stab at an answer.

The above is the key question in this scenario for me.  Regardless of what you _want_ to do...no, you cannot.  The simple fact is there is a different ROE in a war zone vice back home on the streets of the USA.  

Best plan might be to call homeland security whilst figuring out a way to detain him.  Just in case.


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## JJ sloan (Jan 6, 2009)

I personally would not want to interfere whether legal or not.  The best thing is to get those involved who have the authority and the assets available to role up the entire cell if in fact the dude is legit.  No low hanging fruit!  Therefore, I would agree with Car and Arizona.  We need to focus on the bigger picture.

:2c:


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## arizonaguide (Jan 6, 2009)

I'd still wanna kick his ass for blowing my $100 Buzz though!!!
So, for sure I'd go out of my way to get the info!!!
Beware of the ol' Shanghai, or worse.


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## moobob (Jan 6, 2009)

If I had the time, I would get involved if I knew I could get away with it. Chances are, the proper authorities are pretty overloaded and will write off the incident as not worth looking into. Even if he is legit AQ, he will probably be defended by the ACLU for having his rights violated no matter how legitimate the arrest was, and justice will cost the taxpayers thousands.

I will risk his life and career to keep the streets of New York safe for partying, at the same time saving you guys tax dollars money. Just kidding! I'd never do all that. Really. 

To be serious, best I could do is jot down descriptive data, and question people in the area to find out as much as I could about the guy. Report to the FBI. And hope I am successful in convincing my buddy that the guy is probably some dipshit college student that spends his free time cheering for Jihadist videos on Liveleak even though he is too much of a p**** to go anywhere near deployed U.S. soldiers himself, and hope my buddy still doesn't want to go gut the guy.

Whether or not Mr. Al Qaeda is legit isn't really important. Either way, someone as Mara described doesn't have a long life expectancy anyway.


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## AugieSpook (Jan 6, 2009)

Time to take our new "friends" to a private location for a little interogation, once we help them up from their unfortunate fall.  After that, a quick call to a "special" friend and he can take it from there.  The end of the story unfortunatetly is classified, no one ever hears or sees these ingrates again.  On to the next bar!


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## pardus (Jan 6, 2009)

In light of the new info I would calls the cops immediatley and tell them I have a terrorist acting in a manner I feel is a danger to the public and they need to be here NOW!

Then I would shadow the guy until the cops got him or if he was going to get away i.e. in a taxi I would try to physically stop him.

I wouldn't attack him, but I feel physically detaining him is legit under the circumstances :2c:

Once the cops FBI get him they can be smart and use him for bait etc... my job is to see they get onto him.


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## tova (Jan 7, 2009)

Beyond a lot of good ideas already posted, I'd be wondering if there wasn't someone else associated with him in or near the vicinity - why create such a vocal/visual distraction....


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## JJ sloan (Jan 7, 2009)

tova said:


> Beyond a lot of good ideas already posted, I'd be wondering if there wasn't someone else associated with him in or near the vicinity - why create such a vocal/visual distraction....



Your post and your signature say alot about the way that you think.


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## QC (Jan 7, 2009)

As I had been drinking...a lot...I'd just laugh at him. Fuckin' camel jockey. ;)


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## Hush (Jan 7, 2009)

Guys, seriously:reality check.  This guy is standing on a curb, waiting for a cab.  On the basis of a phone call, even to 911, the NYPD does not have the resources to respond in time to apprehend this guy, let alone conduct a hasty surveillance to later "ensnare" him.  Thats if they take you seriously.  And what do you think the response time for the FBI or Homeland inSecurity is, especially after office hours close at 5pm?  To think that you are gonna track down an Arab guy in NYC (pop. 8.2 MILLION PEOPLE) off the basis of a description, or a cab number is pure fantasy.  Its closing time, his glass has been picked up off the bar and put in the dishwasher (as if a print would do anything either) and Im pretty sure that even IF he used a credit card, which is unlikely, it probably wouldnt have his real name on it.  Soooooooooooo  I may be mistaken here, but I believe that the question isnt calling for a "call the police immediately" answer, but something more along the lines of a direct action response.


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## Rabid Badger (Jan 7, 2009)

Detain. Citizens arrest.

The rules changed guys....he has AQ propaganda on his person and PID'ed.....

Here:



> USA PATRIOT Act
> Government is legitimately charged with defending life, liberty, and
> property against both domestic and foreign predators.



These soldiers have a *'responsibility'* to detain this guy.

:2c:


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## QC (Jan 7, 2009)

A citizens arrest? I'm not sure about the US law but here you cannot arrest on suspicion. Bad ju ju if you do.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 7, 2009)

Excellent, Razor! Thanks.
Positive ID as alQuaida...DETAIN.  Not as a citizens arrest, but under authority of detaining an enemy combatant on American Soil under the Patriot Act.
Hand over to FBI, or perhaps better to call your CO, hand over to your own Military Intelligence, and let _them_ be involved with the FBI.



> ‘‘Enemy combatants,’’ said the Court, are either lawful—
> for example, the regular army of a belligerent country—or unlawful—
> for example, terrorists. When lawful combatants are captured, they are
> POWs. As POWs, they cannot be tried (except for war crimes); they must
> ...



My question is this:  What are the MOS of myself and my buddies.  Am I trained in Counter Intelligence such that it would be appropriate to follow, investigate, and report?  Even so, if I had been drinking it would probably be more appropriate to go ahead and detain, and let the "big boys" decide how they want to play/flip him, if at all.
My job is to NOT let a confirmed PID alQuaida terrorist get away completely.


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## pardus (Jan 7, 2009)

Read my last post for a serious reality check.



Hush said:


> Guys, seriously:reality check.  This guy is standing on a curb, waiting for a cab.  On the basis of a phone call, even to 911, the NYPD does not have the resources to respond in time to apprehend this guy, let alone conduct a hasty surveillance to later "ensnare" him.  Thats if they take you seriously.  And what do you think the response time for the FBI or Homeland inSecurity is, especially after office hours close at 5pm?  To think that you are gonna track down an Arab guy in NYC (pop. 8.2 MILLION PEOPLE) off the basis of a description, or a cab number is pure fantasy.  Its closing time, his glass has been picked up off the bar and put in the dishwasher (as if a print would do anything either) and Im pretty sure that even IF he used a credit card, which is unlikely, it probably wouldnt have his real name on it.  Soooooooooooo  I may be mistaken here, but I believe that the question isnt calling for a "call the police immediately" answer, but something more along the lines of a direct action response.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 7, 2009)

pardus762 said:


> In light of the new info I would calls the cops immediatley and tell them I have a terrorist acting in a manner I feel is a danger to the public and they need to be here NOW!
> 
> Then I would shadow the guy until the cops got him or if he was going to get away i.e. in a taxi I would try to physically stop him.
> 
> ...



Agreed!  I just wonder if it might be better to call your CO and try to get your own Intel folks involved, and let THEM detain him further, and THEY deal with the FBI (or local cops).   Maybe call the CO (or 1st SGT?) and let HIM make the further decision?  If I do detain him, where do I do this? Am I going to bring him back in the bar?  Take him to the base? Police station?  

I think I want _my_ Intel guys ASAP! Then let them make the decisions regarding him as an "enemy combatant", especially since I "detained" him under "military authority" on a "Positive ID"("enemy combatant" as per RB's post).  I want my "chain of command" to back me up ASAP!  I think I'm taking him to the base in the first non-arab driven cab my buddy can flag down, and calling the 1st SGT to meet me with some intel guys at the gate. They can decide how to proceed from there.  Positive ID, and all.


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## pardus (Jan 7, 2009)

I'm pretty sure you would have no 'military authourity' unless there is a state of emergency, etc...

It would have to be done as a civilian, the military has nothing to do with this, no calls to CO etc... prob tell you to fuck off anyway. 
This is a police matter not military.

:2c:



arizonaguide said:


> Agreed!  I just wonder if it might be better to call your CO and try to get your own Intel folks involved, and let THEM detain him further, and THEY deal with the FBI (or local cops).   Maybe call the CO (or 1st SGT?) and let HIM make the further decision?  If I do detain him, where do I do this? Am I going to bring him back in the bar?  Take him to the base? Police station?
> 
> I think I want _my_ Intel guys ASAP! Then let them make the decisions regarding him as an "enemy combatant", especially since I "detained" him under "military authority" on a "Positive ID"("enemy combatant" as per RB's post).  I want my "chain of command" to back me up ASAP!  I think I'm taking him to the base in the first non-arab driven cab my buddy can flag down, and calling the 1st SGT to meet me with some intel guys at the gate. They can decide how to proceed from there.  Positive ID, and all.


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## pardus (Jan 7, 2009)

If I could get away with it, I'd like to tie the fucker to a post and kick him in the balls really fucking hard, then hide in the shadows watching to ensure he doesn't escape, then when the police get there, melt away into the night.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 7, 2009)

pardus762 said:


> If I could get away with it, I'd like to tie the fucker to a post and kick him in the balls really fucking hard, then hide in the shadows watching to ensure he doesn't escape, then when the police get there, melt away into the night.



LOL

/////


The fundamental flaw in this storyline is of course the PID angle; AQ doesn't wear uniforms and as far as I know doesn't have any formal ID, so PIDing them is usually somewhat difficult.  To me though, if you claim to be AQ then you are AQ, this isn't like wearing a shirt that says "we will not be silent" in Arabic or wondering aloud where the safest place on a place to sit is.  As far as I'm concerned, if you say you're AQ, you're AQ, and you have to live with the consequences of that affiliation.

Now, I wonder what those consequences will be...


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## Olive Drab (Jan 7, 2009)

You'll be running into all sorts of illegal detention laws if you restrain this guy.  I do not see our military authority on this soil without some higherup approval to act accordingly.  Short of landing yourself in jail, its best to call the police, keep a safe distance while maintaining SA on this guy.


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## car (Jan 7, 2009)

Olive Drab said:


> You'll be running into all sorts of illegal detention laws if you restrain this guy.  I do not see our military authority on this soil without some higherup approval to act accordingly.



Yeah, it's called the Posse Comitatus Act. That's exactly how the ACLU would drive the wedge while defending the guy, if any Service Member "apprehended" him on U.S. soil. Don't know if they'd win (prolly so, since it's old, pretty much inviolable federal law), but the litigation would be long, painful and expensive - for some loud talking asshole at closing time?


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## JJ sloan (Jan 7, 2009)

car said:


> Yeah, it's called the Posse Comitatus Act. That's exactly how the ACLU would drive the wedge while defending the guy, if any Service Member "apprehended" him on U.S. soil. Don't know if they'd win (prolly so, since it's old, pretty much inviolable federal law), but the litigation would be long, painful and expensive - for some loud talking asshole at closing time?




Exactly!  I would also add that the soldiers have been drinking... making the situation much more susceptable to scrutiny.


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## 0699 (Jan 7, 2009)

I'd laugh at him and try to find somewhere else to continue drinking.

He's probably (99.9999%) a poser; to a certain element of society being "AQ" is cool, just like being a "SEAL", "SF", or "Recon" is cool in other communities.

I've been drinking.
My friends have been drinking.
Nothing good will come out of trying to detain him.
As a member of the military I have no authority on US soil unless specifically directed otherwise by my COC.

Plus, laughing at him will piss him off.  If he gets pissed enough to swing, THEN I call the cops & swear out a warrant for assault against him. :)


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## moobob (Jan 7, 2009)

I take my original statements back. I would call the CIA instead of the FBI. That should do the trick.


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## car (Jan 7, 2009)

moobob said:


> I take my original statements back. I would call the CIA instead of the FBI. That should do the trick.



Are you trying for cross=thread points?;)


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## moobob (Jan 7, 2009)

car said:


> Are you trying for cross=thread points?;)



hahaha. If we can expedite his departure out of the country before Jan 20th that terrorist should be good to go.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 8, 2009)

*Do we automatically consider alQuieda as "enemy combatants" ?*

So, is he a Positively Identified "enemy combatant" or not?

Check out Razor Bagdad's link, (which appears to base the situation similar to the Nazi Saboteurs)...and it would seem to me that I can detain him (even as a citizen), and turn him over to Military Intelligence or FBI, who will then work with the the Attorney General to eventually get him (back to _Military Jurisdiction?_) to a Military Tribunal, correct?

But, right now he's standing on the curb, so immediate action is needed.

One way or the other I'm NOT (even as a citizen) letting a confirmed PID alQuaida terrorist get away completely.  
Detain, or Follow?  I'm doing ONE of them.

I'm POSITIVE that I have the obligation to at least apprehend this guy.

Following him is more risky than just detaining him, because you risk losing him completely.
You have to detain him somehow.








Here's the interesting related Nazi Saboteur history link:
http://www.fbi.gov/libref/historic/famcases/nazi/nazi.htm


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## pardus (Jan 8, 2009)

0699 said:


> Plus, laughing at him will piss him off.  If he gets pissed enough to swing, THEN I call the cops & swear out a warrant for assault against him. :)



Just gave me a great idea, get one of my mates to punch me in the eye, then beat the shit of of AQ guy, call the cops and say he attacked me!  Perfect!    :cool:

Not that i'd ever do that of course, that's illegal ;)



arizonaguide said:


> I'm POSITIVE that I have the obligation to at least apprehend this guy.



Why?


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## arizonaguide (Jan 8, 2009)

> I'm POSITIVE that I have the obligation to at least apprehend this guy.





pardus762 said:


> Why?



Original post states that as part of the scenario.   "so you have the obligation to at least apprehend this guy."


Marauder06 said:


> OK, time for another case study.
> 
> Here's how this works- I post a situation, anyone who wants to can make responses in this thread, the thread evolves over time based on your responses, and at the end I put it all together into a little story for your entertainment.  Example:  http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=5689
> 
> ...



*The only sure way to NOT lose him is to take him from the curb.* 
Even following him you have the chance to lose him.  If he pays cash(of course with a cab), the FBI will have a "drop location" and a "description"...so he could be gone unless you stay in physical contact.  Rather than get in his cab, or try to follow and risk losing him, I think we take him. We have to.  Detain him in the bar kitchen, call the First Sgt! 

The minute he asks if you are soldiers, and because he is a PID enemy combatant, he made this a military matter.  Hope the First Sgt isn't to pissed when he shows up with the intel guys.   What's the RIGHT answer Marauder?


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## Totentanz (Jan 8, 2009)

Unless I'm reading it wrong, that's the friend's opinion, not a stiplated fact.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 8, 2009)

*I have to grab him (now) or risk losing him. Obligation to at least apprehend!*

Good point, unclear to me (not in quotes, but seperated from the statement only by a comma).
Marauder, is that Obligation from you as a scenario "given", or just the words of the drunken friend?

Actually, it doesn't really matter.   I _DO_ have "moral" obligation to grab him. (enemy combatant, assaulting soldiers, etc.)

I have to grab him (now) or risk losing him.
Freakin got the "moral" obligation to grab him, even if the "legal" part screws me.
That's why I'm calling First Sgt, and my intel guys, they'll call FBI (JAG?), or advise.
He's going in the system.

Save every bit of evidence including the spit.


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## pardus (Jan 8, 2009)

Totentanz said:


> Unless I'm reading it wrong, that's the friend's opinion, not a stiplated fact.



Exactly!



arizonaguide said:


> Doesn't really matter.
> Still have to grab him (now) or risk losing him.
> Freakin got the "moral" obligation to grab him, even if the "legal" part screws me.
> That's why I'm calling First Sgt, and my intel guys, they'll call FBI.



It matters hugely.
The second you touch him, you break the law, you have no authority here at all.
Your 1st Sgt etc... have no say in this matter at all except to tell you to STFU.

What are they going to tell the FBI, "I have a half drunk Soldier in NYC who says he found an AQ member at a bar"?

Think about that...

You have NO legal right to detain him.

It's a Police matter.

You as a Soldier are a civilian in this scenario.

Touch him and expect to be arrested and dishonorably discharged from the Military, for someone who is prob a poser anyway.

Like I said in a previous post this scenario happen to me in real life, actually twice!

Both supposed IRA terrorists.

What am I going to do call a terrorist supporting Police force? i.e. NYPD because trust me they openly support terrorists!!! I have proof!


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## arizonaguide (Jan 9, 2009)

It may.  Yup, I may get screwed to the wall by any number of folks, (although I doubt my First Sgt leaves me twisting in the wind) but guess what:

*I'm grabbing the MF*, rather than let a PID terrorist (NOT a "poser" per Marauder) escape into the wind.  Call it a "military-citizen's" arrest.  MY oath doesn't stop when I'm outta uniform. (just ask me!)
Plus the MF assaulted me when he spit on me.  Tell that TO THE aclu! My First Sgt can call the locals after he gets there, unless he directs otherwise. I'm asking him to call Intel with the first call.
I'm using MY resourses first. Probably the intel guys will know, or call Jag, or tell me to call the locals.  I want this JAG contact before calling the local police, if possible.

I'm sitting in the kitchen with my "detainee" and my cell phone. (F***, what have I DONE!!!)


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## pardus (Jan 9, 2009)

Spitting is not assault in NY.
You are up for a potential kidnapping charge, tell that to the ACLU... ;)
Where is your 1st Sgt? You're in NYC, if you're AD he could anywhere. 
Like I keep saying in this thread, this has NOTHING to do with the Military!
It's a civil matter, the Military has no authority here, you are a no body who is going to do nothing except drag the Military through the mud by detaining him, you have to be smarter about this, conviction doesn't mean shit, being correct does.
Seems to me you aren't using your biggest reasource, your brain, beingall hooah is stupid in this case.
This can and should be handled in other ways. :2c:



arizonaguide said:


> It may.  Yup, I may get screwed to the wall by any number of folks, (although I doubt my First Sgt leaves me twisting in the wind) but guess what:
> 
> *I'm grabbing the MF*, rather than let a PID terrorist escape into the wind.  Call it a "military-citizen's" arrest.  MY oath doesn't stop when I'm outta uniform. (just ask me!)
> Plus the MF assaulted me when he spit on me.  Tell that TO THE aclu! My First Sgt can call the locals after he gets there, unless he directs otherwise. I'm asking him to call Intel with the first call.
> I'm using MY resourses first.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 9, 2009)

Probably so, Bro!  But I did it (had to, might lose him otherwise)...something about that being an Positive Identified "enemy combatant", forces my hand.
And here's the FirstSgt on the phone right now(yeah, long distance)...say's don't do nuthin till he talks to Intel and maybe JAG.
In the meantime he says "stay of the *** phone *****, ****, you ***,stupid@#$$%^^&&**!!~!"


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## arizonaguide (Jan 9, 2009)

*Brain tells me grab him or lose him...*

I do want to be the first to call the police, but I want to talk to my "experts" first.
We (3) detained him without hurting him.  He's secured(in the kitchen).  The public thinks he was "drunk".
At this point all anyone has is our descriptions...we paid cash too. (mostly someone elses).
Bartender has my first name, and knows the story, we "borrowed" the bar kitchen from him.
We could walk away right now, and let the bartender unsecure him, but I'm waiting on the phone call.
:)


> What is a Citizens Arrest?
> 
> By: Collin McKibben, Attorney at Law & Ariella Rosenberg
> 
> ...


Is it a witnessed felony to be PID as a alQuiada on US soil?  It HAS to be.
Shit, in my case here comes the cops, the waitress called them.


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## 0699 (Jan 9, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Probably so, Bro!  But I did it (had to, might lose him otherwise)...something about that being an Positive Identified "enemy combatant", forces my hand.
> And *here's the FirstSgt on the phone *right now(yeah, long distance)...say's don't do nuthin till he talks to Intel and maybe JAG.
> In the meantime he says "stay of the *** phone *****, ****, you ***,stupid@#$$%^^&&**!!~!"



I'm trying to picture the look on our SgtMaj's face (we don't have a 1stSgt in my unit) when I call him long-distance at 0500 in the AM to tell him I've apprehended a terrorist in NYC.  The ultimate drunk-dial!! :)

BTW, I stand by my original statement.


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## Ex3 (Jan 9, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> *The only sure way to NOT lose him is to take him from the curb.*
> Even following him you have the chance to lose him.  If he pays cash(of course with a cab), the FBI will have a "drop location" and a "description"...so he could be gone unless you stay in physical contact.



fwiw, all cabs accept credit cards as payment now.  Additionally, if you get the cab number (on top of the car) and you note the time of day, the cab driver keeps records of his pickup and drop off locations, so you *could* locate the guy that way. :2c:


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## HOLLiS (Jan 9, 2009)

Blind enthusiasm regardless of how noble it may seem,  will just get you in a world of hurt.  Pardus has some of the best suggestions. 

If your not a cop, don't play cop.  There are other alternatives.  Gather information and pass that information on.  

Information=  description, any license numbers, any associates,  time, date, where, other witness'  etc.  Avoid contract, is a wise choice.  

If he is a poser, wannabe AQ, you go to jail as Padus stated.

If he is the real deal, you just might find yourself in a world of hurt and expand that world of hurt to others.  Let the professionals handle it.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 9, 2009)

Agree all. But look at the situation.

I've got a known terrorist (with *proof*, as per marauder) standing on the curb ready to dissappear into the wind.
I've got 5sec to make this decision.
If I let him step into that cab, it's a crap shoot if we ever get control of him again.
Description and Record of Drop location buys me a big "maybe".

I agree I'd rather keep eyes on, and report, but situation is that there's only one "sure" way to not lose contact.
To my understanding there's proof he's a known PID'd Enemy Combatant. It's NOT just suspician anymore.
I agree Let the professionals handle it. Gotta hand him over.

Check it out: If I grab (*proven terrorist*) now (quietly), and secure  him in the kitchen, and post a man watching the outside, aren't I in a better spot then following (proven terrorist) in another cab (maybe his buddy) and possibly losing him in traffic?
Plus following him in another cab COULD be a setup, and I could find myself in a trap in the "next" cab.  It could all have been a setup to GET me to follow him (especially the spitting, etc.).

The only completely SURE way to get him is grab him now.
But, maybe there's a method to do this that I'm not thinking of.


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## QC (Jan 9, 2009)

Ari, you have an _alleged_ known terrorist. 

*is witnessed by the citizen carrying out the arrest*

This is crucial too. Correct me if I'm wrong here but you have to witness the crime being committed for a citizens arrest to be effective, not think he's going to do it or have seen him after the fact in the area of a crime. 
Pass the info up the food chain.


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## Hush (Jan 9, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Plus following him in another cab COULD be a setup, and I could find myself in a trap in the "next" cab.  It could all have been a setup to GET me to follow him (especially the spitting, etc.).



Excellent point.  What better way to set up a kidnap scenario, then to have you voluntarily enter a cab.  Cabs have been used to set up kidnappings/hits in the past...just ask Curtis Silwa (even though he is still a jackass)


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## HOLLiS (Jan 9, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Agree all. But look at the situation.
> 
> I've got a known terrorist (with *proof*, as per marauder) standing on the curb ready to dissappear into the wind.
> I've got 5sec to make this decision.
> ...




Knowing that what ever you do you are screwed.  

You change jackets, but on a wig, put a suppressor on your pistol, then calmly and quietly walk by him, capping him in the back of the head and then disappear into the shadows.   Maybe leaving behind some gang graffiti, so it looks like a gang hit. 

Well the worse case scenario is, you spend your time at a state of federal facility,  three hots and cot.  You spend your days writing a novel on hit, sell it to the movie industry.  When you get out, your rich. 


I would probably just order another beer, and ignore the whole process.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 9, 2009)

Exactly.  Marauder, what's the answer?

Here's given facts and the question again:


> This guy self PID's as al Qaeda.(and) He shows you his membership card, a tatoo, a pic of himself and bin Laden... whatever passes for positive ID with them. *He's AQ*. Your country is engaged in a Global War on Terror. Here's an AQ member right here in front of you. Can you engage this individual like you could if you were back in Baghdad? Why or why not?





> The fundamental flaw in this storyline is of course the PID angle; AQ doesn't wear uniforms and as far as I know doesn't have any formal ID, so PIDing them is usually somewhat difficult. To me though, if you claim to be AQ then you are AQ, this isn't like wearing a shirt that says "we will not be silent" in Arabic or wondering aloud where the safest place on a place to sit is. As far as I'm concerned, if you say you're AQ, you're AQ, and you have to live with the consequences of that affiliation.



He's AQ. Your country is engaged in a Global War on Terror!


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## HOLLiS (Jan 9, 2009)

Another possiblity is, you have a friend of ME descent, or looks like it.  The AQ tries to recruit them to help,  supply,  participate in a attack or ??


Your friend tells you, the AQ will be at.......... at some time.  This may give you sufficient PC.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 9, 2009)

According to Marauder we have *100% confirmation AQ*.
Isn't that a crime? (PC in and of itself?) and legal cause enough to detain him as a citizen?
I've got a known terrorist (with proof, as per marauder) standing on the curb ready to dissappear into the wind.
I've got 5 sec to make this decision.
If I let him step into that cab, it's a crap shoot if we ever get control of him again.


..5,4,3,2,.....(?)

Crap, don't common people detain "suspects" on aircraft if one stands up and yells AQ, spits, and makes threats?
Isn't there a reasonable timeframe to "detain" or release...similar to what people have done on aircraft?
Also, a certain amount of "assault" HAS taken place, but perhaps not enough to Detain on just that.
But, He's 100% confirmed AQ. Your country is engaged in a Global War on Terror!


----------



## HOLLiS (Jan 9, 2009)

Ok, the guy is known AQ and you rouse him as a citizen.

Thing you may not know.   FBI and family knows who he is and has him under surveillance to know more.  So you pull a CA, and blow 6 mos of hard work.  FBI and family is not happy with you.  Also blowing the hard work, may allow AQ and friends to make sufficient changes to plan A, that plan B succeeds.  Now you have massive guilt. 

Local jurisdiction issue.  

Local DA is a liberal putz, and burns you.

Local DA is a good guy and tries to keep you from being hung.

AQ has friends, they visit your family.


If your poor, your ACLU or CAIR is not going to get much from you in tort claim.

If you have $$,  they do. 

You follow AQ and stop him form carrying our Plan A, he has the stuff.  Your a hero.  Unless he is wanted or in the process of committing a crime, just being is not sufficient to arrest him.


Airplanes are another Issue......  I don't remember for sure, but there are some special laws in regards to airplanes.


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## 0699 (Jan 9, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Crap, don't common people detain "suspects" on aircraft if one stands up and yells AQ, spits, and makes threats...without ACLU bullshit?



IMO there's a lot of difference between a person on a plane making AQ statements, threats, etc, and a drunk bar patron spitting and claiming to be AQ.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 9, 2009)

Agreed, but "Proved to be AQ". So 3,2,1, _we let him go_?  Attempt to follow? Possibly lose forever. Requires getting in the next cab, if there is one. Quick. 

What if there isn't another cab? Marauder didn't say there were two cabs. He's maybe lost forever.
He's going to be getting in the cab, what do we do?
Gotta do it now...whatever it is.


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## Ex3 (Jan 9, 2009)

Jump in with him. :)  That should be fun.  Then the drive would call 911 - problem solved!


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## arizonaguide (Jan 9, 2009)

When I hear the words AQ, I think bomb.   
Where was he sitting exactly? Backpack?
Hollis, 0699, Ex3, I'm buying across the street!:)


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## Totentanz (Jan 9, 2009)

0699 said:


> IMO there's a lot of difference between a person on a plane making AQ statements, threats, etc, and a drunk bar patron spitting and claiming to be AQ.



an emphatic +1


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## Marauder06 (Jan 10, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Exactly.  Marauder, what's the answer?
> ...



OK, in the interests of not letting this one drag on like the last one did, here's the short answer:  legally, no, you can't cap the guy just because he's AQ.

The last time I was in Iraq, I had a random thought in a meeting I was in, "I wonder if I saw one of these clowns CONUS if I could just kill him on the spot." (important note:  "these clowns" refer to AQ, not the other people in the meeting with me ;) ).  So after the meeting I went up to our JAG, great guy and friend of mine, and asked him:  "Hey man, let's say I saw one of these guys on the streets back CONUS and I took him out, is that legal?"  He looked at me very seriously and said, "please tell me this hasn't already happened."  Clearly he confused me with someone who isn't a desk jockey.  At any rate, after I convinced him that I hadn't actually murdered anyone CONUS and was just curious about the law, he launched into a detailed explanation about the rule of law, rules of engagement, something about a UN mandate, etc.  What I took from it: "blah blah blah, no you can't, blah blah blah."  

So, legally, no you cannot "take out" a guy just because he's AQ.  I didn't ask about the legality of detaining a guy, but that's probably not legal either.  Of course, just because you "can't" doesn't mean you "shouldn't," if the situation warrants.  Our country is at war, and our enemies are seeking to maximize civilian casualties.  If you see something suspicious, do something about it.  Report it, confront the individual, get into a physical confrontation with a guy if you have to.  Don't let your self doubt or fear of "getting in trouble" outweigh your instinct. 

At the same time however, we live in  a country governed by the rule of law.  It's one of the things that makes our country great.  If you violate those laws- especially if it becomes physical- you have to be prepared to live with the consequences of your actions.  Are you? 

This case study ties in somewhat with a true story I have about the time I confronted a woman I thought was a Russian hooker, but turned out to be a servicemember's American-born spouse :doh: I'll tell that story a little later in this thread.

As for how this story plays out, while you and your buddies are talking about what to do, AQ boy gets into a taxi and leaves, never to be seen again.  I wonder how this is going to turn out... 

More to follow.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 10, 2009)

Remember, 100% PID.


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## x SF med (Jan 10, 2009)

Marauder06 said:


> OK, let's take a break from the storyline for a minute and take a look at the underlaying hypothetical. You're a Soldier, who has sworn an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic. This guy self PID's as al Qaeda. He shows you his membership card, a tatoo, a pic of himself and bin Laden... whatever passes for positive ID with them. He's AQ. Your country is engaged in a Global War on Terror. Here's an AQ member right here in front of you. *Can you engage this individual like you could if you were back in Baghdad?* Why or why not?


 
IIRC, no you cannot engage as if you were in Baghdad.  You are on US soil, you are on leave, and you are not in uniform.  The biggest point is that you are on US soil, and you are not an activated member of a State or Federal Militia (AR/NG) tasked with crowd control or attached to a police department for an emergency situation.  The US Military in most cases cannot operate in it's 'normal' functions (exceptions being MP's and investigative units like CID/NCIS, AFIS) without an emergency or declared conventional war, special orders, or an immediate threat.  since this individual cannot be fully vetted - one as a citizen of the US may detain, with reason and deliver to the Police/Military Authorities/FBI the suspect.

The Military, without orders cannot operate inside the US Borders for other than training exercises - the noted major exceptions in the recent past are Border Security Operations, or the Activation for Civil Emergencies (Airport Security by the AR/NG).  Again these functions are generally performed by State or Federal Militias, in times of duress short of actual warfare on the sovereign soil of the US outside of designated training areas or specified military posts...

In this case, you are a citizen of the US and as such (although better trained) must obey and abide by the laws of the US and the State where this is occurring.

It's NY, he's got more rights than you, even as a terrorist.

That is, IIRC...


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## HOLLiS (Jan 10, 2009)

x SF med said:


> It's NY, he's got more rights than you, even as a terrorist.
> 
> .



Maybe even listed as a protected species.  His legal defense fund is already in the billions of dollars.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 10, 2009)

> one as a citizen of the US may detain, with reason and deliver to the Police/Military Authorities/FBI the suspect.


Self Identified and PID AQ not "reason" enough to detain? 
So, the smart play really _is_ to let him go?
Choke.


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## Totentanz (Jan 10, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> Maybe even listed as a protected species.  His legal defense fund is already in the billions of dollars.



Good point.  If this backfires, the other side is armed for bear.

Personally, I don't know enough about the legalities of a citizen's arrest to detain someone w/o knowing exactly what I'm doing (which I don't).  And if that backfires, you're staring down the barrel of a kidnapping charge.  Further, you may be trampling over any case that law enforcement may have.

I disagree with the friend that detention and intervening in a direct manner is the best course of action to defend the US domestically.  There are resources dedicated to this sort of thing, who are far better at it than I, and the entire situation would be better served by providing them with more eyes and more (complete) intel.  :2c:


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## x SF med (Jan 10, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Self Identified and PID AQ not "reason" enough to detain?
> So, the smart play really _is_ to let him go?
> Choke.


 
Not at all - but you cannot use 'unreasonable' force to detain or hold the suspect until the authorities arrive or you can deliver him - again it goes back to who has more rights - the friggin AQ guy could sue the living crap out of you for 'kidnapping' or 'unlawful detention' or even get you prosecuted for a hate crime.  I don't have to like it - I just have to know how the game is played, and if any of the rules work against me.

Hell, if it were just up to me - if his bona fides say AQ, shoot him in the face like any other bad guy.  Our society doesn't like this, and one must bow to the liberal majority, and the (IMNSHO) unreasonable constraints put upon the law abiding citizens in most jurisdictions.

Also - to sharpen the point - as a soldier, one is held to a higher ethical, moral, and honorable duty than even members (take that one as you might, I believe the scatalogical reference in the light of the current news items to be very telling) of Congress/Senators, or elected politicians.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 10, 2009)

Totentanz said:


> There are resources dedicated to this sort of thing, who are far better at it than I, and the entire situation would be better served by providing them with more eyes and more (complete) intel.  :2c:


Best answer yet, but how do we follow? Taxi is a crap shoot maybe. You'd probably have to be _getting in one at the same time_ to follow in NY traffic. And, could be a setup. It's all redundant, anyway,  because like Marauder says:


> ...while we are talking about what to do, AQ boy gets into a taxi and leaves, never to be seen again.


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## SpitfireV (Jan 10, 2009)

I was under the impression the "positive ID" was more the train of thought of the people involved in the scenario rather than an actual positive ID supported by actual evidence. 

As has been said, it's an LE issue, not a Mil issue. Likely there will be cameras around so hopefully he has been captured on CCTV. I understand many cabs have cameras now too, though I'm not sure on that. 

The best bet is to WRITE DOWN as many details as you can ASAP after the event, including times and actions. So basically a report. Call whatever hotline you guys have over there and tell them. As an aside, to make sure the info got sent through, I would also send it through the Army CID (? Not sure if that's the right unit) since then it's more likely to be taken more seriously if you send it through official channels. Sad but true. 

As also mentioned, there's the possibility that he is part of a larger investigation, which you don't want to blow. That's where a detailed and timely report helps, too. 

At the end of the day he might be a poser, he might not be. It's not for you as Joe Bloggs on the street to decide; it's for the police/FLE to decide.


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## HOLLiS (Jan 10, 2009)

One could catch a troll,  and sick/attach him on the AQ subject.    Death by Troll is ignored by most modern societies.  The coroner would probably list it as suicide.  You would go free, the troll could go back to imbibing on beverages that he forgot to share with poor misfortune Oregonians.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 10, 2009)

Here's some stuff from the FBI website:


> Please use this website to report suspected terrorism or criminal activity.  Your information will be reviewed promptly by an FBI special agent or a professional staff member. Due to the high volume of information that we receive, we are unable to reply to every submission; however, we appreciate the information that you have provided.


Choke (again)!
Sort of a FU, Have a nice day.

Okay, I had to see it for myself, point taken.
No emergency number anywhere (that I could find).  Just drop an email, and maybe we'll get to it.
No human "hotline" number for tips, nothing.
:doh:

They do say to contact your local field office, get ahold of the Joint Terrorism Task Force, or ask to speak with the Counterintelligence Domain Coordinator.

But this may also may influence your decision:


> The Attorney General has recently authorized a reward of up to $500,000 for information that leads to the arrest and conviction of a person who commits or conspires to commit an act of espionage or that leads to the prevention of an act of espionage.
> 
> To report suspected or suspicious activities, contact the FBI field office nearest you and ask to speak with our Counterintelligence Domain Coordinator. Or submit an anonymous tip online.




https://tips.fbi.gov/
http://www.fbi.gov/terrorinfo/counterrorism/waronterrorhome.htm


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## Hush (Jan 11, 2009)

No surprise there.  But guarenteed the FBI will take credit for the capture, if and when this clown is caught.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 11, 2009)

That's what's nice about Shadowspear!  I always learn something good, and it always makes me think...'specialy when Marauder's writing.  
I am nieve to this stuff, to think the system would actually be something other than FUBAR. (can I still use that word?).
Too many John Wayne/Jimmy Stewart movies, I guess.


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## AWP (Jan 11, 2009)

I just tried reading this thread and all I can say is that if this goes down the way some of you envison you'll make the lead story on the news at best, a top 3 for that year's Darwin awards at worst.


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## AWP (Jan 11, 2009)

Here's Case Study #3a for y'all under the "no good deed goes unpunished" subcategory. Just start grabbing links and you'll see where I'm going with this and how it ties into this thread.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=active&q="troy+anderson"+afghanistan


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## 7point62 (Jan 12, 2009)

Freefalling said:


> Here's Case Study #3a for y'all under the "no good deed goes unpunished" subcategory. Just start grabbing links and you'll see where I'm going with this and how it ties into this thread.
> 
> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&safe=active&q="troy+anderson"+afghanistan




The US Army JAG issued a "Memorandum of Law" in 1989 to try to provide some guidance with regard to Executive Order 12333--the prohibition of assassination as a matter of national policy--because EO 12333 does not define what constitutes "assassination."

The memorandum concludes that the use of military force _*against legitimate targets that threaten US citizens or national security as determined by the President does not constitute assassination and would therefore not be prohibited by EO 12333.*_

The SF sergeant accused in this case was killing an enemy.


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## moobob (Jan 12, 2009)

Freefalling said:


> I just tried reading this thread and all I can say is that if this goes down the way some of you envison you'll make the lead story on the news at best, a top 3 for that year's Darwin awards at worst.



The point is to get away with it


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## JJ sloan (Jan 12, 2009)

7point62 said:


> That's the great paradox about war. It can be murder to shoot one enemy soldier *but not murder to incinerate a city*.
> 
> When I witnessed my first napalm strike at the ripe age of 18, it dawned on me that war _is_ pure annihilation. And trying to put rules on it, trying to govern it like a sporting event is like trying to tie a rope around a tornado.



Huh?

"The attack or bombardment of towns, villages, habitations or buildings which are not defended, is prohibited."
                       -_The Hague Convention, Laws and Customs of War on Land, Article 25_.


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## AWP (Jan 12, 2009)

JJ sloan said:


> Huh?
> 
> "The attack or bombardment of towns, villages, habitations or buildings which are not defended, is prohibited."
> -_The Hague Convention, Laws and Customs of War on Land, Article 25_.



I'm guessing he meant WWII when everyone went hell for leather to destroy cities....unless that was written after the war OR in being the victors the Allies pardoned themselves.


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## 7point62 (Jan 13, 2009)

JJ sloan said:


> Huh?
> 
> "The attack or bombardment of towns, villages, habitations or buildings which are not defended, is prohibited."
> -_The Hague Convention, Laws and Customs of War on Land, Article 25_.




I apologize, my post wasn't clear. My point is, what's murder and what's not murder is subjective in war. It depends on who's doing the murdering, where they stand on the pyramid and the prejudicial POV of the person or persons doing the judging. When our enemies decapitate a hostage or fly a plane into a building, they don't consult the Hague first. And to them it's not murder. Yasser Arafat believed terrorism to be morally justifiable. _Terrorism is the atomic bomb of the poor._

When you have an enemy in your rifle sight and his back is to you and he is dressed in civilian clothes and he doesn't appear to be carrying a weapon, do you shoot him or not? And if you do, is it murder? The Hague isn't there to make the judgement call. It's up to you, your ROE and whatever moral standards of conduct you've managed to retain in a lethal environment. IMO, if you have reason to suspect he's the enemy, you take the shot. When a head-of-state orders a multiple cruise missile launch against "suspected" terrorist training bases and some of the cruise missiles wipe out civilian villages, is it murder, negligent homocide, a regrettable error? To the families of the dead children it's murder.

Who is the murderer? The soldier who takes the shot with the reasonable belief that his target is the enemy? Or the president who orders the cruise missile launch with the knowledge that some of the targets are just "suspected" and not necessarily confirmed?  

The Special Forces sergeant in the above link took the shot. Then he was charged with murder. WTF? What was the line in _Apocalypse Now_? "Charging a man with murder over here is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500."


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## Marauder06 (Jan 15, 2009)

7point62 said:


> When you have an enemy in your rifle sight and his back is to you and he is dressed in civilian clothes and he doesn't appear to be carrying a weapon, do you shoot him or not? And if you do, is it murder?
> 
> The Special Forces sergeant in the above link took the shot. Then he was charged with murder. WTF? What was the line in _Apocalypse Now_? "Charging a man with murder over here is like handing out speeding tickets at the Indy 500."



Hm, not sure how you'd know the dude was an enemy soldier if he weren't wearing a uniform and wasn't carrying a weapon.  But let's assume for a minute that you know the guy's on a declared hostile list of some type.  If he's running away, yes, you can still engage.  The only time you should stop is if it's clear he's incapable of resisting or if he's attempting to surrender.  It's the same kind of reasoning why it's legal to engage paratroopers on their way down, but in most cases not legal to engage down pilots on their way down.

I think it was BS the way those SF guys were charged with murder.  Weren't they aquitted or the charges tossed out or something?  Memory fails me...


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## HOLLiS (Jan 15, 2009)

7point62 said:


> I apologize, my post wasn't clear. My point is, what's murder and what's not murder is subjective in war. It depends on who's doing the murdering, where they stand on the pyramid and the prejudicial POV of the person or persons doing the judging. When our enemies decapitate a hostage or fly a plane into a building, they don't consult the Hague first. And to them it's not murder. Yasser Arafat believed terrorism to be morally justifiable. _Terrorism is the atomic bomb of the poor._
> 
> When you have an enemy in your rifle sight and his back is to you and he is dressed in civilian clothes and he doesn't appear to be carrying a weapon, do you shoot him or not? And if you do, is it murder? The Hague isn't there to make the judgement call. It's up to you, your ROE and whatever moral standards of conduct you've managed to retain in a lethal environment. IMO, if you have reason to suspect he's the enemy, you take the shot. When a head-of-state orders a multiple cruise missile launch against "suspected" terrorist training bases and some of the cruise missiles wipe out civilian villages, is it murder, negligent homocide, a regrettable error? To the families of the dead children it's murder.
> 
> ...



On reading your post,  It seems you are too quick to use the term murder. 

Killing is not the same as murder.   When in view of the facts murder is and killing is not based or personal subjection but by actual definition.   Moral relativism does not apply except in a philosophical debate. 


Also in this case scenario, there are several factors we all have seen before.   How a event is perceived going into it and then the investigation/fact or fault finding that follows.   The defender has choices, if they act above board, their action later will be review.   That review could mean they will be held  labile or criminally for any mistake of judgment on their part.  

If they choose to act as a unknown then they might be able to reduce any liability on their part or make it worse.   This would probably be done in a movie not in real life.  It could change a justifiable homicide charge into a murder charge.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 16, 2009)

So, is there a similar organization to the ACLU in Israel?
How would the original terrorist in a bar scenario have played out there, I wonder?

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob81.html


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## Marauder06 (Jan 16, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> So, is there a similar organization to the ACLU in Israel?
> How would the original terrorist in a bar scenario have played out there, I wonder?
> 
> http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob81.html



Interesting article, thanks for posting it.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 16, 2009)

*Crazy talk? Darwin candidate? ACLU? What about "next attack"?*

I guess we're not Israel, of course. I'm sorry to say it'll probably take another 9-11 for that kind of change.
As has been pointed out, there is SO MUCH fear from ACLU, Politics, Lawyers, retribution, etc...it's like a "parallisis".

I don't know what the long term solution is.
But, like the Boy Scouts used to preach: Be Prepared!
I think these "scenarios" really help with that Mara, thanks!


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## arizonaguide (Jan 19, 2009)

I found this guy, in researching further.

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZjPq2V1y80"]YouTube - Juval Aviv Your Turn[/ame]

If you click on the YouTube link (or Google) there are several good video cuts.


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## arizonaguide (Jan 19, 2009)

I remembered this interesting info about IDENTIFICATION techniques also:
http://www.cfr.org/publication/13438/washpost.html?breadcrumb=/issue/publication_list?id=420

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Facial_Action_Coding_System

I can't find anything specific (USA)to "civilian responses", except the general stuff that Razor and 7point62 mentioned. Lots of Israeli civilian responses/situations. Seems like there's much to learn there.


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## 7point62 (Jan 27, 2009)

Our enemy wore civilian clothes and did not always show any outward sign of being enemy, other than age (there were no young men in the villes and hamlets, they were all either in the ARVN or the Vietcong), so young men in their 20s & 30's were always suspect. Sometimes--if we were spotting possible enemy from cover--initiation of contact boiled down to the advice of our counterparts. If _they_ said the targets were enemy, then we engaged.


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## JBS (Jan 28, 2009)

Regarding the subject, here is- in real life- what I'd do:

I'd go back to drinking.

The guy is a poser, and I just drank a hundred bucks worth of free booze.

There is no conceivable way to confirm this guy one way or the other, and I've got 5 seconds to make the decision.  If I'm even slightly persuaded that he is who he says he is, I'll pull out he cell phone camera, and say "If you're Al Qaeda, then you won't mind if I take your pic".  I'd get another gratuitous ass shot of the taxi, and then go back inside and finish my drinks.

I would then decide what to do the next morning after I - and my buddies- sobered up.


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## 0699 (Jan 29, 2009)

JBS said:


> Regarding the subject, here is- in real life- what I'd do:
> 
> *I'd go back to drinking.*



Same thing I said 58 posts ago...


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