# The Military Pistol Training (M9)



## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 20, 2008)

Give three reasons why it sucks, and three reasons why it’s a good pistol. Also give a brief description of your unit’s training with the M9 pistol (i.e. PMI length, what’s covered in the PMI, range time, and value added training)

Dislike: 
1.	The M9 has only a 15 round capacity, but is by far one of the largest 9mm pistols on the market.
2.	The decock safety is to far away from the grip of the pistol, people with smaller hands have a harder time disengaging the safety. Also when racking the slide, the safety can be engaged on accident.
3.	Locking block is horrible and needs to be replaced every 3000 rounds.

Like:
1.	The M9 (rack grade) will hold 3 to 4 inch groups at 25 meters.
2.	Disassembly and cleaning is easy.
3.	Trigger guard is larger and is easy to fire while wearing gloves.

Basic PMI taught at MOB sites by my old unit is 4 hours and includes the following.
•	Safety
•	Clearing
•	Loading/ Tac Load/ Unloading
•	Disassembly/ reassembly.
•	Correct stoppages.
•	Basic fundamentals.
•	LMTS/ EST 2000

Range time is about 8 hours, but shooters will only receive on average 45 min to 1 hour on the firing line. During this time they will fire 10 rounds for practice fire, and 40 rounds for qualification using the APQC.

Value added training is based on the instructor, but is often not covered due to time constraints.

IMO this training is far too little, and covers only enough to allow for a shooter to qualify. TM’s and FM’s are not used and, and the several qualification courses are not covered such as (CPQC, Night fire, NBC fire) also zero drawing from the holster training is covered. In my past experience this training is ineffective and should be changed. However, during past attempts to change the training doctrine. Commanders were reluctant due, to time (4 hours vs. 8 hours) and ammo use (50 rounds vs. 200 rounds).

So how do we fix this problem???


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## gunslinger (Mar 1, 2008)

Three reasons it sucks. 1.Too big. Soldiers with small hands have a tough time with it.      2.  9mm is not much of a stopper.   And worse than it has to be due to using ball ammo.     3.   Having a decock and external hammer and safty all make for more the shooter has to think about.  

Three to the good.   1.  Ive never had a real stoppage with a 92F.      2.   Easy sports and takedown.      3.  Heavy, points well for me.

Training in my unit with the M9 is a JOKE.  They have us holstering weapons empty with the slide locked to the rear so the range master can see its safe.     No shooting at all drawing from the holster.   No low light or night fire.  And nowhere near enough rounds to really train some of these young soldiers.     And Im in an MP Company.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Mar 1, 2008)

not to mention the safety's blow


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## demo18c (Mar 1, 2008)

gunslinger said:


> Three reasons it sucks. 1.Too big. Soldiers with small hands have a tough time with it.      2.  9mm is not much of a stopper.   And worse than it has to be due to using ball ammo.     *3.   Having a decock and external hammer and safty all make for more the shooter has to think about.  *
> Three to the good.   1.  Ive never had a real stoppage with a 92F.      2.   Easy sports and takedown.      3.  Heavy, points well for me.
> 
> Training in my unit with the M9 is a JOKE.  They have us holstering weapons empty with the slide locked to the rear so the range master can see its safe.     No shooting at all drawing from the holster.   No low light or night fire.  And nowhere near enough rounds to really train some of these young soldiers.     And Im in an MP Company.



We carry glocks and M9s, depends on the shooter but when the M9 is carried the safety is off with the weapon decocked.


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## Hitman2/3 (Mar 1, 2008)

Dislikes: 
1. 9mm to small/ can't use hydra shock
2. Only holds 15 +1 compared to glocks 17 +1
3. External saftey makes for more action when engaging target.

Likes:
1. Durable
2. Easy to strip
3. Fairly acurate

My units training with the pistol was pretty good, can't recall all the specifics. However, the Marine Corps pistol range sucked, to short, not enough rounds down range, no transitioning. Whats the good of showing somebody how to use their secondary weapon if you don't show them how and when to transition from their primary? Also up until fairly recently the holsters they issued sucked ass.


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## 8'Duece (Mar 1, 2008)

Bad:

1. Safety/Decocker is too small in my opinion and should be kept in the decocked and safety off condition. 

2. 9mm Luger ball ammo is a poor stopper.  If used with high end JHP's then it's a mute point and will do it's job nicely. 

3. Grip is a bit big and needs to have a more friendly 1911 style back strap and larger beavertail. 

Good:

1. Decent mag capacity 15+1

2. One of the most accurate 9mm Luger pistols on the market.  This id due to the delayed locking block action and not a Browning action with a high bore axis. 

3. Easty field strip. 


Some first line musts for the M9 Beretta:

1. Steel recoild guide rod. 

2. Factory mags from Beretta. Not Checkmate or knockoffs. 

3. Replace recoil spring every 3000 rounds. 

4. Change out the grip panels to Hogues or Pachmyers. If possible use the CTC laser grips. 

5. Get your CO to understand that decocking the weapon and leaving the safety off is just as advantagous as the SIG P226 used by NAVSPECWAR..................:)


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 1, 2008)

I will never understand why anyone would use a safety on a double action pistol where the initial trigger pull is 12 lbs.  Hell, I'm a Glock man.  Why use any external safety at all?  When a pistol is drawn, there are only two things that are going to happen; someone is going to get shot or the pistol will be re-holstered.


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## Rabid Badger (Mar 2, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> Bad:
> 
> Some first line musts for the M9 Beretta:
> 
> ...



*Agreed. Same as RS post below. De-cock, put it in the holster on safe. Another safety situation/issue that hasn't been discussed is that a lot of [old] and some new holsters are designed to put the M9 on fire when drawing. Problem is, it'll be that one time you have a bad guy drawing down on you and you have nanoseconds to squeeze 2 into him that you'll get a dry trigger pull because the pistol safety is still engaged.

'Fire' in the holster....de-cocked....RS made the point, too.......

10 rounds Familiarization? HS.......Let's see 8 hours X 10 rounds is 1 round every 48 minutes.....crazy.....(I know I know...the 'qual' is in there somewhere, too.....I'm a good instructor but I couldn't teach anyone pistol MMS in 10 rounds....That's a waste of range time...and then to qual after the 10??.......stupid ...)*

RS quote


> I will never understand why anyone would use a safety on a double action pistol where the initial trigger pull is 12 lbs. Hell, I'm a Glock man. Why use any external safety at all? When a pistol is drawn, there are only two things that are going to happen; someone is going to get shot or the pistol will be re-holstered.



We had a bad batch of locking blocks shipped to us in PR. They were breaking twice as fast as the good blocks. We traveled to/from the states a lot so had a whole new order picked up at FB and brought in....check the  blocks to see if the regularity of breaking are all from the same company/lot/order....

(My M9 pull is only about 8.....with no soft primer strikes....shhhhh.....but I replace the hammer spring a lot)


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## WillBrink (Mar 2, 2008)

RustyShackleford said:


> I will never understand why anyone would use a safety on a double action pistol where the initial trigger pull is 12 lbs.



LOL, funny. You know, it's human nature to try and make guns more complicated in an attempt to overcome lack of training to improve safety...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 2, 2008)

Very good point’s from everyone, and I really agree with a steel guide rod and or a +10 drive spring.

As for the decocking safety issue, I have actually quoted the TM/ FM to commanders before. The FM says that carrying the M9 in a hammer down (half cocked) Safety off is a safe way to carry the M9. However, most commanders dismiss it as the commander’s choice in how his soldier will carry their weapons. Also the new color code (weapon status) rules contradict the TM/ FM.

As for basic pistol training and qualification, as long as we allow STRAC to rule the amount of ammo used in training. The Army will maintain a lower level of skill set. Ideally I would like 8 hours for hands on, and 8 hours for range training. 250 rounds per soldier, 100 round for basic align the sights and move the trigger. 100 round used for slow fire practice and positions firing with (mag changes, ball and dummy, correct stoppages) and the 50 rounds for qualification.

I have proposed these types of changes to TSP/ TSB’s and was met with a strong “NO WAY”! I have also been told in the past, that any drifting from STRAC, or the TSP will result in my removal. It’s another case of the big army not wanting change…


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## AWP (Mar 2, 2008)

WillBrink said:


> ...in an attempt to overcome lack of training to improve safety...



You "laugh" but pre-9/11 in the FL Guard an O's career depended upon his/ her unit's safety record; it was a bullet on our OER's. Both VA and FL had a series of jumping injuires so the States of VA and FL (intertwined by a common HQ, 3/20 SFG(A)) shut down jumping for around a year (the exact duration is lost to me, maybe ke4gde remembers) while the FL State safety Officer, a rotary-winged aviator, made recommendations to the SF BN CDR on how to better conduct airborne operations. That SF O-5 was not promoted despite the availability of an O-6 slot.

The Army has a whole magazine devoted to safety.

We are becoming risk adverse....or we already are there.


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## Rabid Badger (Mar 2, 2008)

Freefalling said:


> The Army has a whole magazine devoted to safety.
> 
> We are becoming risk adverse....or we already are there.



Already there, and you'd think 9/11 would have changed that. Actually, it has, with the exception of some jack-ass 'O's that equate safety to OER's and promotions.

I can say that I was in a blue collar CIF....if you didn't work hard everyday, O's and warrants included, you were out.....rucksack in the hall shit....

M9's carried in de-cock mode, round in the pipe in the Rem shorty 870's, weapon on safe......charges primed ready for explosive entry...etc....with no accidents...

Training, training, training.....was the name of the game....'more sweat in training' mentality.

Transition was touched on in an earlier post. The M4/ to M9 transition can be trained in a dry fire environment, but of course it's not trigger time. M9 rapid mag change, holster draw Position 1-4 also, but again....

No rounds down range doesn't have to be a large detractor to training. Rounds on target are optimal, but muscle memory is integral to weapons handling also.......

:2c:


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## HeloMedic1171 (Mar 2, 2008)

We're already there.  what i never understood is how an rotor-wing aviator can input better ways to make Airborne ops safer.....  the bottom line is this:

Jumping is inherently dangerous.  people are going to get hurt in some form or fashion no matter what you do.

One weekend a month, 2 weeks a year, and 5 jumps a year is not enough time/jumps to keep the skills up, IMO.  BUT - I'm a leg, so correct me if I'm wrong.

I think M9 training sucks.  it doesn't cover anything about holsters or practical implementation of the weapon, i.e. transitioning form primary to sidearm.  I have 2 junior medics now....  one thinks like i do "gimme all the ammo I can carry, and when he gets to close I'll let him have it all" and the other one is the opposite.... for some reason, his instructors in AIT told him he shouldn't even take an M9 if offered......  I was dumbfounded :uhh: I told him that the M9 is very accurate at close range, and was much easier to bring to bear if he needed it while working on a patient....  wtf?  why am I having to convince someone to take another weapon?

3 goods:

I like the weight.  i know some don't, I do.
15+1 is better than 8.
easy to strip and maintain

3 bads:

9mm
9mm
9mm

those are my biggest complaints with the weapon -  it's 9mm.  it needs to be bigger.   I'm interested to hear the other illl comments and dislikes.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 2, 2008)

I like the fact that it's got 15 rounds per mag, if I ever need to pull my sidearm it's probably because I need to shoot a lot of bullets quickly.

I'm OK with the fact that it's 9mm because that's what a lot of our own weapons as well as our allies use.

I like the fact that it has an ambidextrous safety and that it disassembles easily.

/////

I don't like the fact that it's so big- give me something with a shorter barrel.

I don't dig the fact that it's not easy to mount things like a light or a laser.

I'd prefer our sidearms were made by a traditional American company- like Colt or Smith and Wesson.


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## rangerpsych (Mar 2, 2008)

hell even something german made would work well.

size weight durability my 3 complaints... for a pistol to be too large for mungo is silly... when a doublestack 14 round 40 isn't  too large.... fixit.

round could be better but you get what you get...

the biggest thing is that its considered a secondary weaons system and most soldiers have enough issues with being able to use their primary weapons system properly let alone train on a secondary..

couple that with limited ammo, dumb commanders that are scared of burning ammo.......and you get joe who can't shoot a pistol.

it takes time to train to use a pistol..and it takes rounds.

dry fire is a valid training tool but I personally prefer to shoot bullets... pretending gets boring.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 3, 2008)

rangerpsych said:


> dry fire is a valid training tool but I personally prefer to shoot bullets... pretending gets boring.



lmao, it does get old after about 50 time every other day:doh: I use beam hit, dryfire and put about 750-1000 rounds down range a month, and I am still not at the level I want to be


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## shortbrownguy (Mar 3, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> Already there, and you'd think 9/11 would have changed that. Actually, it has, with the exception of some jack-ass 'O's that equate safety to OER's and promotions.
> 
> I can say that I was in a blue collar CIF....if you didn't work hard everyday, O's and warrants included, you were out.....rucksack in the hall shit....
> 
> ...



Couldn't have said it better. Dry firing will take you 90% of the way.


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## rangerpsych (Mar 3, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> lmao, it does get old after about 50 time every other day:doh: I use beam hit, dryfire and put about 750-1000 rounds down range a month, and I am still not at the level I want to be



I miss being on ft. benning... that round count for your monthly was the average daily count between medicchick and I...

some people would ask why the top of my chamber on my expert was polished compared to a stock expert...  the bluing wore off from slide/barrel friction from repeated firing.....after it wore off  I took my dremel and some polishing compound and polished it to a mirror, as well as the feed ramp... didn't need it really but every little bit helps, right?  sorta like massaging your gas regulator for a mildly higher ROF ;)

good times and a dillon reloader...should make a song about that...


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## demo18c (Mar 3, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> Already there, and you'd think 9/11 would have changed that. Actually, it has, with the exception of some jack-ass 'O's that equate safety to OER's and promotions.
> 
> I can say that I was in a blue collar* CIF*....if you didn't work hard everyday, O's and warrants included, you were out.....rucksack in the hall shit....
> 
> ...



Well you know as well as I do that there is a different mentality in the Company because of the job and the specified mission.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 3, 2008)

demo18c said:


> Well you know as well as I do that there is a different mentality in the Company because of the job and the specified mission.



That is 100% of the problem!!! Line units, have about a half and half make up of  High Speed, and shitbag. Soldiers about to ETS, or just holding out for their GI bill. Not to mention the troops that already knows everything…


Dry training, either moving the trigger, drawing from the holster, transitions, reloading, and correcting a stoppage, is the best training you can do. However, the person who is doing the dry training has to want to get better. The army thinks it’s a lack of understanding with the younger generation, “the video game soldiers” so the army gets al these new cool computer training aids. But the marksmanship is still poor; it’s not the new equipment. It’s the lazy fucking soldiers who suck the life out of the rest of the unit. 

You can not train the unwilling, but you can make them meet a standard. Make the standard higher, and you will force the shitbags to improve…


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## Rabid Badger (Mar 3, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> Dry training, either moving the trigger, drawing from the holster, transitions, reloading, and correcting a stoppage, is the best training you can do. However, the person who is doing the dry training has to want to get better. The army thinks it’s a lack of understanding with the younger generation, “the video game soldiers” so the army gets al these new cool computer training aids. But the marksmanship is still poor; it’s not the new equipment. It’s the lazy fucking soldiers who suck the life out of the rest of the unit.



Borrowed this from another thread here on SS. It's relevant and pretty much makes J.A.B's point.....

*Gun Fighters: Are you the Predator or the Victim?* 

Only You can Decide! 

*D. Kellerman U.S. Special Forces ODA 2091 *SE Afghanistan 2003-2004, Gunfighters Proving Ground 

1.	A gunfighter has chosen to step into the arena, don’t tread lightly. This is a "no shit" situation. Training instructors will not be there to coach you. There won’t be a re-test or a warm-up. 

2.	20 minutes of quality dry or live fire training every week beats 4 hours of firing hundreds of rounds into paper once or twice a month. 

3.	Either you have it or you don’t. If you don’t, get a new job or stay in the office. 

4.	Confidence, dominance, and well placed shots will allow you to live. Never rely on having more ammo. Treat each magazine as if it were your only one. 

5.	A perfect range score only means that you take too much time to shoot. Vanity kills in real life shootouts! That perfect score will only get you a nice certificate. Speed and reasonably good accuracy are what allows you to live. 

6.	A good shooting stance will always seem right during a training course, but will never be perfect in real life. Get over it, fight through it, and get the shot off…now! 

7.	MINDSET wins the fight…and DOMINATION of the situation deals death! 

8.	Stand your ground, but take cover if needed. Moving away or backwards can make you a victim. 

9.	Advance on the threat to gain the psychological advantage. Victims run, predators engage! In case you haven’t figured it out yet, you should be a predator! 

10.	If you cannot choose what kind of gun to bring to a gunfight, but given the chance, bring one you can shoot well along with a lot of friends…or just say fuck it and don’t show up. 

11.	Shoot first, shoot fast, shoot well, then communicate and/or move. Unless your partner is an idiot, he or she will know what is going down. 

12.	Accuracy is relative. No person can outshoot a quality gun. Most "out of the box" quality guns will always be more accurate than you can possibly shoot. Train with and trust your gear! 

13.	When your gun runs dry, use everything available to your advantage. Do not give up, ever! 

14.	Use cover or concealment as the situation dictates, but remember when hiding behind cover, you are not DOMINATING the situation. 

15.	Keep both goddamn eyes open; forget the "academy" firearm instructors. You ain’t shooting for a perfect score…you are shooting to live! 

16.	If hit, ignore it until you can render self aid, you probably won’t even feel it if you are "into" the fight. 

17.	Decide to be AGGRESSIVE enough, QUICKLY enough. Indecisiveness and will cause you to die. 

18.	Remember, there is ALWAYS somebody faster….but age and treachery beat youth and vigor 9 out of 10 times! 

19.	Some will tell you that "winning" is the goal. Wrong! "Living" is the goal. Discretion is the better part of valor. 

20.	Be prepared to write a report justifying what and why you did.

*I especially like # 18.......I'm an old (46 ain't old) evil motherfucker when it comes to living or dying..... ;);)*


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 3, 2008)

RB who wrote this? The man needs to be on my contact list ;) I have got some brain picking I want to do...


These two sum it up pretty good!

3. Either you have it or you don’t. If you don’t, get a new job or stay in the office. 

4. Confidence, dominance, and well placed shots will allow you to live. Never rely on having more ammo. Treat each magazine as if it were your only one.


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## Rabid Badger (Mar 3, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> RB who wrote this? The man needs to be on my contact list ;) I have got some brain picking I want to do...
> 
> These two sum it up pretty good!
> 
> ...



*D. Kellerman U.S. Special Forces ODA 2091 SE Afghanistan 2003-2004, Gunfighters Proving Ground *

Which goes back to quantiified qualified *dry fire **ALONG WITH **range fire *make a good shooter....not max cap magazines and slay and spray privates with NO training....


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 3, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> *D. Kellerman U.S. Special Forces ODA 2091 SE Afghanistan 2003-2004, Gunfighters Proving Ground *
> 
> Which goes back to quantiified qualified *dry fire **ALONG WITH **range fire *make a good shooter....not max cap magazines and slay and spray privates with NO training....



Well it’s simple if you can’t be safe, load, reload, correct a stoppage, draw from the holster, or move the trigger with out disrupting the sights with out the use of ammo. Then you sure as hell won’t be able to with ammo.

Brings me back to my dad teaching me how to fire a .22 Cal bolt rifle. He made me dryfire 5 shot’s prior to firing 1 round; I would have to call the shot (using the clock method) for every shot dry or live. As a kid I hated having to dryfire 5 times to every one bullet down range, but I loved when that one bullet hit where I was aiming :)


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## Rabid Badger (Mar 3, 2008)

A good instructor can have a bad student keyholing in 3 mags.....but with a lot of dry fire...

Front site front site front site, draw from the holster, 1-4 drills, 3-4 de-cock drills, transition from the M4 to sidearm...all dry...and have a fairly proficient shooter on the firing line when he finally loads bullets in the gun.....

Putting it all together at the end of the day, mag in the M4, drop the magazine, pull one from the redi-mag, load mag, M4 malfunction/runz dry, transition to sidearm, pistol runs dry, drop mag, rapid mag change....

then do it again..and again...and again.....when the shit hits....it will all come back real quick....and all from muscle memory....

All that I just described could be accomplished with a decent instructor to student ratio (1-3) in 1 day...

I find the statement 'We can't train, we don't have any bullets' a weak excuse from a weak instructor/leader. 

Not saying this about anyone here, not my intent. My intent is to broaden the 'training thought process' for BRM/MMS.

Training can be done anywhere/anytime you have a weapon and a magazine...empty or loaded....

It doesn't have to go 'bang' to train..

:2c::2c:


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## AWP (Mar 3, 2008)

I know a Kellerman. I hope the author of the above isn't this guy:

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1719315/posts


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## Rabid Badger (Mar 3, 2008)

Damn those 'Lords of War'!!

He was knee deep into some bad shit, eh??

Small country invasion stuff there.....Wishn I had some 'o that stuff...legally, of course.....

Doesn't affect the comments 1-20, tho..those are dead on....

Sux to be him right now... :cool::cool:


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 3, 2008)

Freefalling said:


> I know a Kellerman. I hope the author of the above isn't this guy:
> 
> http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1719315/posts



Damn that can not be good:doh:


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## JBS (Mar 3, 2008)

Excellent thread, gents.

Thanks for all the knowledge shared here.

About the magazine issues:  I can 2nd Razor Baghdad's mention of using a dremel tool on the mags.

You have to do the same thing on the front leading upper edge of them as well, or else Luger ammo tends to catch just behind the ball when chambering.  The edge of the cartridge will catch on the magazine, as the slide moves forward, and it will cause a failure to feed.

For me:

Pros:
1. Accuracy
2. Reliability (rarely had any kind of failure-to-feed or failure-to-fire over thousands of rounds).
3. Easy field strip


Con's:
1. I could always stand more stopping power.  Higher-velocity ammo can compensate, but comes with a price- including a lot of extra carbon, or bits of plastic/synthetic material for those who use specialized ammo.  That debris can cause FFF or other malfunctions.

2. Could always use a better magazine release.  

3. More magazine capacity would be nice too.


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## 8'Duece (Mar 4, 2008)

Seems Kellerman just couldn't keep his hands out of the cookie jar. 

You go from SF Warrior to felon criminal all in one fail swoop.


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## WillBrink (Mar 4, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> Seems Kellerman just couldn't keep his hands out of the cookie jar.
> 
> You go from SF Warrior to felon criminal all in one fail swoop.



Well of course some have been known to be a bit of both I recall...:eek:


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## phantom1984 (Jan 15, 2009)

*I love my Beretta 9-Mil*

I relize i not being in the military havn't put my Beretta through the rough use as soldiers do but i have put it through some serious stuff. Dirt,mud, rain and a lot of constant firing. I have put thousands of rounds through it over an intire weekend with out cleaning and it performs better than any weapon i have ever fired. I have small hands (almost like a childs) I have Hogue style grips and for me the safty and  mag release are very comfortable. I have owned a colt 1911 , Glocks , Smith and Wessons and i wouldnt trade my Beretta for any othe them . I carry it conceiled everyday (I have my CCW)and it in the the right holster works real well. I carry with the safty off and with all  the Beretta's safty's and practice I have never had a problem.


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## 8'Duece (Jan 27, 2009)

I wanted to bump this thread. 

I like to dry fire every day with my carry gun (Sig P228 9mm) I dry fire in both the double action and single action mode.  I generally do the drills RB mentioned from the holster, slice the pie, and I concentrate on where my front sight is during the trigger pull. My forearm strength seems to be weak these day's but I'm using a vice exerciser to build up my wrist and forearm strength. 

Am I moving the sight ? If I am I go back to the basics with grip and body mechanics. If you where to look in my window you'd think I was crazy.


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