# Multiple shootings + explosions in Paris



## Rapid (Nov 13, 2015)

Paris shootings and explosions near Stade de France kill 18 - BBC News

Getting real tired of this shit now. If most of the French still have a fucking brain, they'll start getting pretty tired of it too.

Mod... I've updated the title to reflect the current casualties


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## Rapid (Nov 13, 2015)

26 dead now (likely to climb higher) and a hostage situation. I'm just fucking furious at these cunts.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 13, 2015)

It is sad to hear of the violence. Rest In Peace.

It seems like war is coming to Europe, one way or another. The number of immigrants is staggering, and they are coming from places where daily violence is a mind numbing reality. It is the one thing that gives me pause in travel to, and around Europe;  and I can't CCW there.


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## CQB (Nov 13, 2015)

Police are going into Bataclan now. #Bataclan


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## Kraut783 (Nov 13, 2015)

Damn...35 confirmed dead so far.  Sad times.....RIP to the fallen.

Death and eternal damnation to the actors


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## JBS (Nov 13, 2015)

Reposez en paix

When will enough be enough?  This has got to end.


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## DA SWO (Nov 13, 2015)

Maybe the french will finally admit they have a problem and ship these animals back to North Africa.


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## Crusader74 (Nov 13, 2015)

Unconfirmed reports 60+ dead..  RIP


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## Trev (Nov 13, 2015)

Unconfirmed report of attack at the Effiel Tower.


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## Marine0311 (Nov 13, 2015)

RIP to the victims.

Hunt the rest down and take them out.


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## Sendero (Nov 13, 2015)

LA Times is reporting that the hostages at the Bataclan, were there to see a California rock band Eagles of Death Metal.  

Rest in peace.  Safety to all the emergency responders.


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## Grunt (Nov 13, 2015)

Rest In Peace to those that were simply living their day-to-day lives in peace, until the predators decided they should no longer be able to.

May the predators become the prey!


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## Rapid (Nov 13, 2015)

100+ hostages in a theater... fuck.


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## AWP (Nov 13, 2015)

It will be interesting to see what France knew, if anything, leading up to the attacks. The attackers' backgrounds will be interesting, particularly as they relate to the recent wave of immigrants.

ETA: Fuck the media with a pizza cutter. Watching their "coverage" is infuriating.

Blue Skies.


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## racing_kitty (Nov 13, 2015)

To the deceased, requiescat in pace. 

May the gloves come off, and the enemy decimated in ways that their descendants will weep in fear of.


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## Crusader74 (Nov 13, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> It will be interesting to see what France knew, if anything, leading up to the attacks. The attackers' backgrounds will be interesting, particularly as they relate to the recent wave of immigrants.
> 
> ETA: Fuck the media with a pizza cutter. Watching their "coverage" is infuriating.
> 
> Blue Skies.



This is getting out of control.. This has been planned for weeks if not months... purely coincidence that scumbag got vapourised today...

Watch Sky News Live


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## CQB (Nov 13, 2015)

France had closes it's borders.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 13, 2015)

I shutter to think what will be found in the concert hall.  Radio reports stating concert goers were begging for authorities to storm the hall - terrorists randomly killing people, more of a slow massacre than a hostage situation.


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## AWP (Nov 13, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Radio reports stating concert goers were begging for authorities to storm the hall - terrorists randomly killing people, more of a slow massacre than a hostage situation.



Sending a message, enhancing the terror. The survivors will be forever traumatized, the details will become public, and it helps sow panic in the country at large.


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## Trev (Nov 13, 2015)

Unconfirmed French counter terrorism teams have begun assault on the conceret hal.


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## Robal2pl (Nov 13, 2015)

It seems, that French police units mangaged to kill two terrorists. Looks like there has been in-extremis assault - terrorists were killing hostages.


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## Dame (Nov 13, 2015)

Reports that Bataclan hostages were liberated by French SF. Well done.


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## Trev (Nov 13, 2015)

French counter terrorism teams rescue hostages in concert hall. Concert hall secured.


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## Crusader74 (Nov 13, 2015)

French media citing 100+ killed... RIP


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## AWP (Nov 13, 2015)

As the casualties will probably climb I've changed the thread's title. I imagine this will be a topic for months to come.


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## Trev (Nov 13, 2015)

118 hostages KIA in concert hall.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 13, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> It will be interesting to see what France knew, if anything, leading up to the attacks. The attackers' backgrounds will be interesting, particularly as they relate to the recent wave of immigrants.
> 
> ETA: Fuck the media with a pizza cutter. Watching their "coverage" is infuriating.
> 
> Blue Skies.



The numbers on this are just getting worse by the hour. I agree with the thoughts about French Intel on this. I wonder what the US Intel knew about this too? I hope they can get a handle on the scope of this, because it is probably far from over yet. The influx of immigrants is staggering, and will be hard to stop. I agree with the observations about the media. I simply do not trust the US media to just report. It all has to be washed and pass the administrations, "sniff test". No matter what the news is, the important thing is shaping and spin. I hate them.


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## Ranger Psych (Nov 13, 2015)

Time for an glowing area denial munition over their favorite rock.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 13, 2015)

Friend who just took these photos tonight.  Armed?


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## Muppet (Nov 13, 2015)

Rest easy. Hopefully, the scalpel comes out to take the head of these savages...

M.


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## Trev (Nov 13, 2015)

Lets go General Patton on their assess.


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## ZmanTX (Nov 13, 2015)

Dammit. Toll keeps rising...
RIP to those who lost their lives today. Prayers out to the families and friends.

ZM


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## Kheenbish (Nov 13, 2015)

RIP. I'm more worried about how many state players are getting fully involved now. For some reason I don't think everyone will just come together to fight evil...or agree on what to do after the snakes head is gone. 

EDIT: peer speculation, as gunmen have not been identified.


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## CDG (Nov 13, 2015)

Latest death toll I heard was 140.  One shooter in custody who told investigators this was done in the name of ISIS. France has essentially declared martial law.  Government has authority to control media and enter any private residence, at any time, without a warrant.

ETA:  No links as I heard all this on a live report on AM radio while driving.


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## amorris127289 (Nov 13, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Friend who just took these photos tonight.  Armed?
> 
> View attachment 14433
> View attachment 14434


My dad said those are training missles, no rear fins. (Retired maintenance CMSgt)


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## AWP (Nov 13, 2015)

amorris127289 said:


> My dad said those are training missles, no rear fins. (Retired maintenance CMSgt)



They have rear fins, but I'd think the blue bands mark those as training missiles. Besides, those are the aggressor a/c.

@Ooh-Rah Great photos, but what's the tie-in between these aircraft and the thread?


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## Trev (Nov 13, 2015)

Death toll of 153.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 13, 2015)

Thanks for the response on the jets...he mentioned that it is very rare to see them flying like that in the evening.


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## CDG (Nov 13, 2015)

Paris attacks: At least 153 die in shootings, explosions - CNN.com

Link to somewhat of a blow by blow account.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 13, 2015)

Some early reactions to the latest terrorist attacks in France.  For reference, the author is former JSOC intel.


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## CQB (Nov 13, 2015)

A couple of LEO reported killed it seems. From Le Monde:

Ann Hidalgo (PS). "I know that the Parisians, who will suffer with those who fell tonight, will also stand up to be first on the side of victims, and to show that this freedom, this freedom there is in our city, the joy of living there in our city, they will not reach, "said Ms. Hidalgo, after visiting the night near the Bataclan concert hall, in the 11th district.


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## DA SWO (Nov 13, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> They have rear fins, but I'd think the blue bands mark those as training missiles. Besides, those are the aggressor a/c.
> 
> @Ooh-Rah Great photos, but what's the tie-in between these aircraft and the thread?


Correct on both counts.

RIP for the deceased, and condolences to the families.

I hope the French take a kill first, capture later approach.

Hopefully this serves as a wakeup call.


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## amlove21 (Nov 13, 2015)

153. 153 people.  (reported, CNN)

I don't have the words. Rest easy to those we lost, condolences to those left behind.


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## J.S. (Nov 13, 2015)

I don't understand why more news agencies aren't identifying it as an Islamic terror attack yet, from some sources it seems pretty clear that ISIS and/or affiliated groups are behind this.

http://www.newsweek.com/islamic-state-supporters-celebrate-paris-attacks-social-media-394199
Obama leaves ‘Islam’ out of Paris terror statement

Neither the most reputable, but it makes you think.


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## Ranger Psych (Nov 13, 2015)

can't call shit for what it really is, you might offend someone


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## J.S. (Nov 13, 2015)

@Ranger Psych Ain't that the truth.


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## amlove21 (Nov 13, 2015)

J.S. said:


> I don't understand why more news agencies aren't identifying it as an Islamic terror attack yet, from some sources it seems pretty clear that ISIS and/or affiliated groups are behind this.
> 
> http://www.newsweek.com/islamic-state-supporters-celebrate-paris-attacks-social-media-394199
> Obama leaves ‘Islam’ out of Paris terror statement
> ...


...it makes you think that maybe, just maybe, we don't need to advertise for ISIS right away. Let's get some credible news out there, maybe address the dead and dying, and _then _we can start doing exactly what ISIS wishes- promoting their latest terror attack. 

We can call it what it is without invoking the holy war bullshit rhetoric. At least for 24 hours or so.


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## J.S. (Nov 13, 2015)

@amlove21 That's a really good point, I didn't think about it like that.


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## Rapid (Nov 13, 2015)

J.S. said:


> I don't understand why more news agencies aren't identifying it as an Islamic terror attack yet, from some sources it seems pretty clear that ISIS and/or affiliated groups are behind this.
> 
> http://www.newsweek.com/islamic-state-supporters-celebrate-paris-attacks-social-media-394199
> Obama leaves ‘Islam’ out of Paris terror statement
> ...




I've noticed this a while ago and have posted about it here a few times here. There's a clear, concerted effort on a global scale to avoid mentioning Islam in these scenarios, if at all possible.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 13, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> <snip>  @Ooh-Rah Great photos, but what's the tie-in between these aircraft and the thread?



Tie-in only that my buddy who took them rarely, if ever, sees them in the evening - especially in formation.  He's a pretty good photog, and remembers 9/11 when jets were patrolling - sent them to me wondering if armed and if the U.S. was doing "something" with them based on current events.


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## Blizzard (Nov 13, 2015)

Today, the President Obama said:
President Obama Offers a Statement on the Attacks in Paris. Watch Here:


> We stand prepared and ready to provide whatever assistance that the government and the people of France need to respond. France is our oldest ally. The French people have stood shoulder to shoulder with the United States time and again. And we want to be very clear that we stand together with them in the fight against terrorism and extremism.


 
Back in January, in response to the Charlie Hedbo attack, President Obama said:
Paris terror attacks: Barack Obama says US is behind France as 'oldest ally'


> "I want the people of France to know that the United States stands with you today, stands with you tomorrow," Obama said at a speaking engagement in Tennessee, describing France as America's "oldest ally."


 
Hmmm....

How about we quit with the "standing" and the half-hearted speeches and, instead, actually start moving and get fucking serious about dealing with this issue.  Just a thought.

Prayers out to the Parisians.


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## Dame (Nov 14, 2015)

Eight assailants dead, seven of them suicide bombers. Must be those radical vegans.


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## Grinning Fortress (Nov 14, 2015)

For anyone who hasn't seen this yet. Here's a link to a mini article, if you will, by Jack Murphy from over at SOFREP.

Breaking: French and German Police Knew Paris Attack Was Coming a Month Prior | SOFREP


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 14, 2015)

About time to go hunting.

RIP to the dead...


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## Raptor (Nov 14, 2015)

RIP.

Hopefully when the mourning is over, the group responsible gets lots of explosions hitting them in return.


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## AWP (Nov 14, 2015)

At some point we need to accept we can't kill our way out of this, we can't disengage, and we can't throw money or "hugs" at the problem. I liken it to a patch of weeds. Even if you Roundup it to oblivion the weeds will grow back. Pull the weeds and they grow back. Throw grass seed down and that will go nowhere. We have to pull the weeds, sow the grass seed, water that seed, keep pulling weeds, and wait for the grass to grow and choke out the weeds.

In other words, done properly this will be a long and bloody affair. If we haven't figured that out after 14 years of an active war and 30+ years of this shit on the fringes then we deserve another Paris or 9/11. Yes, deserve because we aren't "getting it" and history will repeat itself.

Go back through the last 1400 or whatever years and you'll see this is cyclical. You'll see that it was eventually stopped militarily, that the expansion of "radical" Islam was a military solution. Times have changed though, this is as political as military. Armies aren't fighting armies, and the Lepantos and Tours' are behind us. We're in a new cycle but with different rules and we need to feed, house, and clothe orphans even as we create them.

This will be a long and bloody fight, militarily, politically, and even socially. We have to kill the ones taking up arms against us and their supporters while stopping the generational recruitment of their replacements. Our grandchildren...let that sink in, our grandchildren might see the end of this fight.

If we're up to it.


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## Totentanz (Nov 14, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> At some point we need to accept we can't kill our way out of this, we can't disengage, and we can't throw money or "hugs" at the problem. I liken it to a patch of weeds. Even if you Roundup it to oblivion the weeds will grow back. Pull the weeds and they grow back. Throw grass seed down and that will go nowhere. We have to pull the weeds, sow the grass seed, water that seed, keep pulling weeds, and wait for the grass to grow and choke out the weeds.
> 
> In other words, done properly this will be a long and bloody affair. If we haven't figured that out after 14 years of an active war and 30+ years of this shit on the fringes then we deserve another Paris or 9/11. Yes, deserve because we aren't "getting it" and history will repeat itself.
> 
> ...



It's an ideological war, and a disturbingly low percentage of the West is willing to acknowledge that such a war exists.


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## JBS (Nov 14, 2015)

That's because our people (The Western populations) are saturated with this obsession to be politically correct.   How are we going to fight an ideology we're afraid to openly talk about as the cancer that it is?  It's "workplace violence", or a "crime", rather than an act of war (thank God the French President called it what it is- an act of war;  American politicians could learn from him).   Every successful campaign ever waged had a clear "us" and a clear "them", not politically correct intellectualizing.   Since our political leaders lack the balls to say who "them" are, we can't focus on the ideological fight.

The ideology and the recruiting need to be specifically targeted at the root, and the next generation of youth needs to be reached with messages that can counter the recruitment.  Until those two efforts are undertaken on the same level as Kennedy's moon landing vision, the cycle will continue.

Ideology.
Recruitment.

Anything else is guaranteeing a hundred years of this.


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## Brill (Nov 14, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> At some point we need to accept we can't kill our way out of this, we can't disengage, and we can't throw money or "hugs" at the problem. I liken it to a patch of weeds. Even if you Roundup it to oblivion the weeds will grow back. Pull the weeds and they grow back. Throw grass seed down and that will go nowhere. We have to pull the weeds, sow the grass seed, water that seed, keep pulling weeds, and wait for the grass to grow and choke out the weeds.
> 
> In other words, done properly this will be a long and bloody affair. If we haven't figured that out after 14 years of an active war and 30+ years of this shit on the fringes then we deserve another Paris or 9/11. Yes, deserve because we aren't "getting it" and history will repeat itself.
> 
> ...



I like the grass vs weeds analogy! I strongly disagree with anyone deserving another attack.

The type of grass we're dealing with is a hearty variety however, it doesn't grow well in high temperatures and has very little tolerance for drought.  The grass is VERY sensitive to any changes: soil PH, temp, water, etc.  This grass wants to grow but can and tries to live with the weeds.

The weed, on the on the other hand, thrives in heat, cold, drought, floods, etc and even welcomes death for THAT is when it releases it seed to spread throughout the grass.  The weed doesn't care: it just wants to kill the grass so it can spread.

I had a weed and fire ant problem in my lawn.  I had enough so I went to Lowes and researched to find the BEST specialized weed killer that would not harm the grass but directly attack the specific weed growing.  I put the weed killer on the ENTIRE lawn, not just a few spots were the weeds were, but where the weeds COULD grow.  I didn't put limits on the weed killer, didn't dilute it, and damn sure didn't exam each and every granule of killer.  I selected the appropriate killer for the job and let it go...because the GRASS is more important than the weeds.

My lawn looks great HOWEVER I do monitor it and at the first signs of weed, I crush it with the weed killer.

The US has very powerful weed killer.  We should unleash it without "micromanagement" and let it do what it do.  Interesting note: I have never seen lawns in other countries like we have in the US.


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## AWP (Nov 14, 2015)

lindy said:


> I like the grass vs weeds analogy! I strongly disagree with anyone deserving another attack.



We deserve it because we've earned it through our inaction or half-assed response(s). We lack the stomach, the West lacks the stomach, for the cost of this fight. At this rate the outcome is inevitable and if we're to have any trace of peace we have to change our methods. We're not going to kill our way out of this.


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## CDG (Nov 14, 2015)

Society, on the whole, is too soft, and coddled so often, that it is almost physically impossible for them to recognize what this fight will take, much less acknowledge and commit to it.


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## CDG (Nov 14, 2015)

ISIS claims responsibility and calls the Paris attacks "the first of the storm".

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/w...paris-attacks-calling-them-miracles.html?_r=0


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## Brill (Nov 14, 2015)

Interesting map.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/...t&contentID=WhatsNext&src=recg&pgtype=article

A former SS agent suggested the restaurants and concert were distractions from the main effort: targeting Holland and/or political leaders at the soccer game with svests.


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## poison (Nov 14, 2015)

It makes sense.


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## amlove21 (Nov 14, 2015)

CDG said:


> Society, on the whole, is too soft, and coddled so often, that it is almost physically impossible for them to recognize what this fight will take, much less acknowledge and commit to it.





Freefalling said:


> ...In other words, done properly this will be a long and bloody affair. If we haven't figured that out after 14 years of an active war and 30+ years of this shit on the fringes then we deserve another Paris or 9/11. Yes, deserve because we aren't "getting it" and history will repeat itself....
> 
> This will be a long and bloody fight, militarily, politically, and even socially. We have to kill the ones taking up arms against us and their supporters while stopping the generational recruitment of their replacements. Our grandchildren...let that sink in, our grandchildren might see the end of this fight.
> 
> If we're up to it.





JBS said:


> The Whole Damn Post


@CDG and I were talking about this very thing last night. 

I agree with all of you guys. It's all good to see these bullshit cartoons of the Statue of Liberty in kit and all this "we're coming" nonsense- I wonder if the general public actually understands what that means.


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## AWP (Nov 14, 2015)

amlove21 said:


> I agree with all of you guys. It's all good to see these bullshit cartoons of the Statue of Liberty in kit and all this "we're coming" nonsense- I wonder if the general public actually understands what that means.



Somewhat off-topic: I have a particular contempt for two groups within the US: the "Fly 10,00 miles to smoke a camel"/ eagle sharpening its talons crowd and those who suppose disengagement, talks, or agreements are the solution. The former usually didn't wear a uniform or if they did had a job with no chance in hell of discomfort much less danger, certainly have never even seen a low-threat place like Bagram, or will even see their children wear a uniform. The latter are so out of touch with the world I expect them to spend their weekends looking to pet unicorns.

The children need to take their pudding cups back to the living room and let the adults talk.


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## Trev (Nov 14, 2015)

Yet after all this shit you can guarentee no western government will abmit we are at war with these motherfuckers. Despite this countries will still be letting in "refugees" and will still act suprised when this shit happense again. I don't want to sound like an alarmist but this shit ain't over. They're probably going to act this out again and again through all of Europe.


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## pardus (Nov 14, 2015)

Trev said:


> Yet after all this shit you can guarentee no western government will abmit we are at war with these motherfuckers. Despite this countries will still be letting in "refugees" and will still act suprised when this shit happense again. I don't want to sound like an alarmist but this shit ain't over. They're probably going to act this out again and again through all of Europe.



I believe ISIS when they say this is just the beginning.
Europe is fucked. It needs to do something serious to combat this as do all free countries in the world.
Islam is a plague on the Earth IMO.


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## Trev (Nov 14, 2015)

pardus said:


> I believe ISIS when they say this is just the beginning.
> Europe is fucked. It needs to do something serious to combat this as do all free countries in the world.
> Islam is a plague on the Earth IMO.


 Shit loads of White Phosphorus dropped on their so called "caliphate" might help us out. But apparently it's too "mean" and "in-humane" to kill sub-human Ted  Bundy clones according to the pussies who are the ruling politicians in the western world.


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## AWP (Nov 14, 2015)

Today at West Point:


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## CDG (Nov 14, 2015)

Victory belongs to the most persevering.
*– Napoleon Bonaparte*

We, at some point, have to make the conscious decision to do what it takes against ISIS.  It will not be easy, cheap, or short.  But, IMHO, it must be done.

ETA a link to an article I just read from Center For Strategic and International Studies (CSIS).

Paris, ISIS, and the Long War Against Extremism | Center for Strategic and International Studies


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## pardus (Nov 14, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> At some point we need to accept we can't kill our way out of this, we can't disengage, and we can't throw money or "hugs" at the problem. I liken it to a patch of weeds. Even if you Roundup it to oblivion the weeds will grow back. Pull the weeds and they grow back. Throw grass seed down and that will go nowhere. We have to pull the weeds, sow the grass seed, water that seed, keep pulling weeds, and wait for the grass to grow and choke out the weeds.
> 
> In other words, done properly this will be a long and bloody affair. If we haven't figured that out after 14 years of an active war and 30+ years of this shit on the fringes then we deserve another Paris or 9/11. Yes, deserve because we aren't "getting it" and history will repeat itself.
> 
> ...



This is in essence a global COIN war and we must fight it as such.


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## TH15 (Nov 14, 2015)

A Syrian passport was allegedly found next to one of terrorist swine. According to Bloomberg, the individual claimed "refugee" status when entering Greece. It was only a matter of time..

Syrian Passport Found Next to Paris Attacker Came Through Greece


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## CDG (Nov 14, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Somewhat off-topic: I have a particular contempt for two groups within the US: the "Fly 10,00 miles to smoke a camel"/ eagle sharpening its talons crowd and those who suppose disengagement, talks, or agreements are the solution. The former usually didn't wear a uniform or if they did had a job with no chance in hell of discomfort much less danger, certainly have never even seen a low-threat place like Bagram, or will even see their children wear a uniform. The latter are so out of touch with the world I expect them to spend their weekends looking to pet unicorns.
> 
> The children need to take their pudding cups back to the living room and let the adults talk.



Been reading a lot of articles and analysis on Paris today.  Just reading a NYT article and saw this, bold emphasis is mine: _Pausing from her morning run near the Musée d’Orsay, Marie-Caroline de Richemont, 32, said she was still trying to process the events, but without succumbing to fear. “This is not Iraq or Afghanistan,” she said. *“We are not at war here. We need to stay confident and hopeful.”
*_
Link to the full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/w...c=edit_na_20151114&nlid=29624742&ref=cta&_r=0

This is the exact mindset that will destroy countries like France if too many people buy into it.  We are absolutely at war.  Confidence and hope will accomplish nothing but more death.


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## Rapid (Nov 14, 2015)

The war is going to be lost. In the short term anyway. Only when we'll have really screwed up will we start to fight back.

Even with all this shit going on, the top trending theme on social media is stuff along the lines of 'terrorism has no religion' and other bullshit. People will gleefully lap up any bullshit like that because they're still too addicted to being "progressive", even in the face of catastrophes. In fact, the greater the catastrophe, the more progressive they can appear. For young people who have no career, no morals, nothing to strive for, their self-worth comes from crap like this. It's all they've got.


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## J.S. (Nov 14, 2015)

CDG said:


> This is the exact mindset that will destroy countries like France if too many people buy into it.  We are absolutely at war.  Confidence and hope will accomplish nothing but more death.



I couldn't agree more.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 14, 2015)

ZmanTX said:


> Dammit. Toll keeps rising...
> RIP to those who lost their lives today. Prayers out to the families and friends.
> 
> ZM





amlove21 said:


> @CDG and I were talking about this very thing last night.
> 
> I agree with all of you guys. It's all good to see these bullshit cartoons of the Statue of Liberty in kit and all this "we're coming" nonsense- I wonder if the general public actually understands what that means.



I doubt many have any idea as to where this could go. It depends on what the media says about it, because that is the information source., & my rants on our media still apply.


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## DA SWO (Nov 14, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Today at West Point:



And that is the extent of the western response, feel good measures and nothing else.


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## BuckysBadger24 (Nov 14, 2015)

These motherfuckers.  May those that perished rest eternally in blissful peace, and may the wounded survivors heal and find the strength to flip these assholes' plan on its head by living long, full, and complete lives.

As usual, President Obama's initial cookie cutter, rehashed statement last night was very disparaging.  Even Xi Jinping (whether he is, or is not, completely full of shit aside) offered a better message of solidarity than this administration did.  There certainly was nothing said by our so called "leader of the free world" to give any impression that ISIS will now pay in full for its actions, that ENOUGH is ENOUGH.  I certainly hope that I'm wrong, but I'm not fully convinced that had this attack occurred on American soil, that Obama would have had a response that would have been any more forceful nor provide any sense of direction that this country could get behind.  Sadly, I also believe that a very large amount of American civilians (while posting all their stock condolences and peace symbols on social media) have any true outrage, concern, or foresight as to what the ramifications of this attack will mean in the long run for our safety here at home, if the populace and government doesn't become truly serious about eradicating these dipshits from our planet.  It wouldn't surprise me in the least if there are many people in this country sitting on their fat asses secretly saying to themselves "well, that is terrible, but at least they didn't attack US."  What chance does any plan for destroying these fuckers have if the citizens of Allied countries, and the citizens of the U.S. in particular, aren't even willing to put their focus and full support behind it?  Sadly it seems that not even something as simple as that is within the grasp of many these jackasses.  

The more and more I come on this forum, the more stories and opinions I read, from those that provide this country with the possibility of the ultimate blank check for our freedom, about the American populace in general, and the more concerned I become about how far the disconnect is between our military members/first responders and civilians.  We who haven't worn the uniform have been asked to sacrifice precisely dick over the past 14 years, and collectively we couldn't even continue to give our armed forces something as simple as the support that they needed to finish the job that WE initially overwhelming pledged needed to be done and was worth it.  This newest heaping pile of shit has cropped up as a result of that political and public pussyfooting, and now the most recent price paid are 129 deceased (hopefully that number is final now, not to mention, of course, the 350+ wounded) Parisians' and citizens of multiple nationalities.  Men, women and children who were guilty of nothing more than being where they were at that time.  What more do these fuckers need to do to the citizens of the U.S., France, England, and the rest of our combined allies for people to pop their heads out of their asses and back a combined solution as well as the men and women who will carry it out for as long as necessary to get the job done?  We're to the point in America where I've talked to people who have said with almost indifference that these types of attacks are simply becoming a new common and normal aspect of life!  They catch the blip about these "incidents" while waiting for sports scores and the weather, and then don't give it a second thought after it passes on the ticker. The very thought that anyone would even consider that acceptable makes me sick to my stomach, and I can't fathom having belief that groups like ISIS are something that will always exist in this capacity.  

I hope those members here that are vetted (which I understand is naturally the vast majority, and regular Joe American me is the vast minority, which is somewhat sad in its own right to me at least, as I learn something fascinating and hear the opinions on issues that actually affect our Nations as a whole, and not just my own personal bubble, every time I log on without the political bullshit) have had experiences with civilians that don't just see the suffering France is dealing with right now, and nearly every major Western European and North American power has gone through at multiple points throughout the past 30+ years at the hands of Radical Islamic terrorists, as some interesting sensational story for a while, and as the real threat to our ways of life that they are.  Those voices just aren't nearly loud enough yet.


----------



## Frank S. (Nov 14, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> At some point we need to accept we can't kill our way out of this, we can't disengage, and we can't throw money or "hugs" at the problem. I liken it to a patch of weeds. Even if you Roundup it to oblivion the weeds will grow back. Pull the weeds and they grow back. Throw grass seed down and that will go nowhere. We have to pull the weeds, sow the grass seed, water that seed, keep pulling weeds, and wait for the grass to grow and choke out the weeds.
> 
> In other words, done properly this will be a long and bloody affair. If we haven't figured that out after 14 years of an active war and 30+ years of this shit on the fringes then we deserve another Paris or 9/11. Yes, deserve because we aren't "getting it" and history will repeat itself.
> 
> ...



Oui.


----------



## ZmanTX (Nov 14, 2015)

CDG said:


> Been reading a lot of articles and analysis on Paris today.  Just reading a NYT article and saw this, bold emphasis is mine: _Pausing from her morning run near the Musée d’Orsay, Marie-Caroline de Richemont, 32, said she was still trying to process the events, but without succumbing to fear. “This is not Iraq or Afghanistan,” she said. *“We are not at war here. We need to stay confident and hopeful.”
> *_
> Link to the full article: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/15/w...c=edit_na_20151114&nlid=29624742&ref=cta&_r=0
> 
> This is the exact mindset that will destroy countries like France if too many people buy into it.  We are absolutely at war.  Confidence and hope will accomplish nothing but more death.


 
Couldn't agree with you more. I guess she never heard of Edmund Burke much less his quote of evil triumphing.

@Red Flag 1 
The media is garbage.


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 14, 2015)

If  I was a member of a country leaders personal security service....I would be really worried about the G20 summit in TURKEY next week.

No matter the security......such a ripe target for ISIL and so close.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 14, 2015)

CDG said:


> Society, on the whole, is too soft, and coddled so often, that it is almost physically impossible for them to recognize what this fight will take, much less acknowledge and commit to it.



Need to learn to embrace violence.


----------



## Trev (Nov 14, 2015)

Rapid said:


> The war is going to be lost. In the short term anyway. Only when we'll have really screwed up will we start to fight back.
> 
> Even with all this shit going on, the top trending theme on social media is stuff along the lines of 'terrorism has no religion' and other bullshit. People will gleefully lap up any bullshit like that because they're still too addicted to being "progressive", even in the face of catastrophes. In fact, the greater the catastrophe, the more progressive they can appear. For young people who have no career, no morals, nothing to strive for, their self-worth comes from crap like this. It's all they've got.


 Damn straight. These Lib Tards believe if you appease them the threat will go away. They can't wrap their single digit I.Q's around the fact the problem these shit eating fuck heads have with us is the fact that we exist.


----------



## SkrewzLoose (Nov 14, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> Need to learn to embrace violence.


Excellent article, Sir. Just as relevant now as it was over a year ago.


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## Dienekes (Nov 15, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> learn to embrace violence



That piece is incredibly well written.


----------



## CQB (Nov 15, 2015)

If you tend towards the Huntington view, there's a minimum of 10 years of this to go and he is mute on the outcome except to say that all revolutions die away eventually.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 15, 2015)

I think western society through it's false blanket of security has lost the ability to fight a true war with these fucks. It will take a brutality that is equal, if not beyond what ISIS has shown. I hear/read comments all over, that we can't be like them, if we drop to their level that we are no better. Bullshit! 

We should be rounding up every single Muslim and locking them in camps. We should go on the offensive and attack without mercy, killing and destroying everything associated with ISIS and any other "extremists Islam fucks" (read all Muslims). Our society can no longer abide a ruthless group of murders who fail to conform to our ways and who want nothing but our destruction. We can no longer afford to say "these guys are okay" while they plan, attack and kill our people.

Bottom line, we have to take these fuckers out before they grow to a point where everyone is tapping their head on the floor five times a day, or being shot in the back of the head b/c you failed to conform to their beliefs. It's great to think we're are a modern civil society and we have been, but its time to put that aside and let slip the dogs of war.

Regardless if you disagree, it worked on the native American people, it worked with the Japanese and German people, its worked countless times throughout our history. No more games, no more rhetoric of being better, no more false security, lets just get this shit over with, so our kids don't have to be tortured with this bullshit in the future.

My $.02


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## Salt USMC (Nov 15, 2015)

Those ISIS douchebags want to return the world to pre-enlightenment barbarism, and you're just going to go ahead and do that for them.  Can we go one week without advocating genocide?  Can we do that?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 15, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Those ISIS douchebags want to return the world to pre-enlightenment barbarism, and you're just going to go ahead and do that for them.  Can we go one week without advocating genocide?  Can we do that?



No, and I think its time we stop pretending that we can...

ETA: and they don't want to take us back to some barbaric pre enlightenment state. They want to kill us or convert us, that is their mission. They started this, not us, and the idea of crushing everything about them is not genocide, its human progress.


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## Salt USMC (Nov 15, 2015)

I get what you're saying.

It seems like you're trying to address the "Islamic question", i.e. "How do we deal with militant Islam?"
Now, this solution that you've proposed, it sounds like there's a good deal of finality to it.  Would it be accurate to say that it's your final solution?  Or, to put it more succinctly, the final solution to the Islamic question?


----------



## policemedic (Nov 15, 2015)

I see where you're going with that; Godwin much?

How do you propose the issue of Islamic terror be addressed in order to achieve a desired end state that guarantees the safety of those who choose to neither convert nor pay taxes to a ruling Islamic class?


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 15, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> I get what you're saying.
> 
> It seems like you're trying to address the "Islamic question", i.e. "How do we deal with militant Islam?"
> Now, this solution that you've proposed, it sounds like there's a good deal of finality to it.  Would it be accurate to say that it's your final solution?  Or, to put it more succinctly, the final solution to the Islamic question?



What question? You have a Islamic faith based war being raged on anyone who doesn't belief or conform to their specific brand of Islam. There is no question, you cannot reason with the unreasonable. 

Here something to think about. We have tried to pacify the "militant Muslim" for hundreds of years, specifically Islamic terrorism for the last 15 years straight. It doesn't work, it has never worked, and it won't ever work. It's time to try something different, my vote is in the kill every last one of then, lock the rest up until they can play nice. If that day never comes, oh fucking well, at least the rest of the humanity can move forward.

And no I'm not a Nazi, no I don't think it is comparable. Big difference between attempting to wipe out a race b/c you just don't like them vs wiping out a multi racial Islamic based people, who are currently attacking your own people, and who are standing good on a promise to wipe out all none believers/conformers.


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## DasBoot (Nov 15, 2015)

I am for going into Syria and Iraq to wipe out ISIS. I'm for an aggressive campaign across multiple theaters to combat ISIS and anyone who associates with them. I will never be for interning millions of mostly decent people, especially American citizens and the citizens of our allies. It didn't work for the Germans or the Japanese- and it was downright genocide in the case of our own Native people. Those are some of the worst things we have done as a country and I never want to see it done again. I don't want ROEs when dealing with the bad guys, but for everyone else just doing their thing, getting lumped in with the bad eggs, i want to see people being treated with the decency we expect to be treated with. 

With all that said, we do need to stop the soft talk and kill this delusion that we can contain ISIS through a few bombs being dropped... I do not have a lot of faith in our administration to do that.


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## Ranger Psych (Nov 15, 2015)

We can contain ISIS with bombs being dropped. We just need to use bigger bombs.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 15, 2015)

I get the "I'm for this but not for that" but really, how are you going to decide who is good and who is bad? When the guy shooting at you yesterday, is now not armed, not engaged in combat against you, and is claiming to be a refugee.

In a perfect world, bad guys would raise their hands and we could shoot them all in the face and give each other high fives. Reality, is we don't know how many ISIS fighters are even in our own country, how many supporter's and or sympathizers are here. 

How can you be for civil rights for a people, who you cannot tell if they want to kill you or not? How can you tell the families of innocent murdered people "sorry but we have to treat these people with special privileges b/c a few of them may possibly be good ones"?

I know what I am calling for sounds awful, I know it's unacceptable in today's modern society, but so is one of my kids, family members or friends being killed b/c we want to pussyfoot around a religion of murders, rapist and enslavers'.

Fuck'em


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## Brill (Nov 15, 2015)

I don't understand why the MSM has ID'd one of the attackers as "a mass murderer".  Doesn't that imply that this is now a legal matter?

Mostefai was a terrorist who belonged to a terrorist organization and used violence to incite fear among the civilian population for political gain.  <--- That is terrorism!


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## Kraut783 (Nov 15, 2015)

Unfortunately.....unless it's on the battlefield, it's all a legal matter.


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## Brill (Nov 15, 2015)

Kraut783 said:


> Unfortunately.....unless it's on the battlefield, it's all a legal matter.



ISIL recognizes the WORLD as its battlefield...but they're contained.


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## Dame (Nov 15, 2015)

Meanwhile, back in Europe...

International arrest warrant issued for this piece of filth.


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## AWP (Nov 15, 2015)

JAB said:


> We should be rounding up every single Muslim and locking them in camps.



You advocate placing American citizens in camps because of their religion?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 15, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> You advocate placing American citizens in camps because of their religion?



No, I was more specifically thinking about refugees, illegal immigrants, and individuals citizens who are calling for the death of American's/non-Muslims.

However, if it took locking every Muslim up in a camp for a few years, to gain some kind of control on this extremism bullshit. I think it would be justified, given the history of the past 15 years. Pretty shitty thing to think, but damn, sitting around hoping we catch these fuckers slipping just hasn't been working out the best.


----------



## Tbone (Nov 15, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> You advocate placing American citizens in camps because of their religion?


I don't want to advocate that line of thinking, but I think people who say things such as, "Put all Muslims in prison!!!" or whatever; is because Islam is now beginning to be seen as a detriment to society by the general public. We lock people away for being crazy in psych wards don't we? I guess if you could make the case that Islam is an ideology that threatens society, It wouldn't seem so weird to govern that group of people. I myself don't care how bad it gets, I want to be able to freely think what I think and only get in trouble if I physically break the law.


----------



## Brill (Nov 15, 2015)

JAB said:


> No, I was more specifically thinking about refugees, illegal immigrants, and individuals citizens who are calling for the death of American's/non-Muslims.
> 
> However, if it took locking every Muslim up in a camp for a few years, to gain some kind of control on this extremism bullshit. I think it would be justified, given the history of the past 15 years. Pretty shitty thing to think, but damn, sitting around hoping we catch these fuckers slipping just hasn't been working out the best.



May want to research the Palestinian refugee camps.  That plan didn't work out so well.


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## Kraut783 (Nov 15, 2015)

And there you go.....an arrest warrant.

This is where we (western countries) are weak in this fight.....

EDIT:  I don't mean to give up any rights of due process, but maybe Terrorism Acts on behalf of a DTO on U.S. soil should have a different status.


----------



## Brill (Nov 15, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Those ISIS douchebags want to return the world to pre-enlightenment barbarism, and you're just going to go ahead and do that for them.  Can we go one week without advocating genocide?  Can we do that?



Well, they SAY that but when did Muhammad drive a nice BMW and live in nice digs?  Make no mistake: the Islamic State wants its enemies to live in crap conditions but they want the best money can buy for themselves.  Regarding genocide, IS fighters WANT to go to jannah!  They covet that more than life itself.

search youtube for jannah and watch the vid by Isla mic guida nce.  That's EXACTLY what those fuckers want.  Let's help him on their path.


----------



## AWP (Nov 15, 2015)

JAB said:


> No, I was more specifically thinking about refugees, illegal immigrants, and individuals citizens who are calling for the death of American's/non-Muslims.
> 
> However, if it took locking every Muslim up in a camp for a few years, to gain some kind of control on this extremism bullshit. I think it would be justified, given the history of the past 15 years. Pretty shitty thing to think, but damn, sitting around hoping we catch these fuckers slipping just hasn't been working out the best.





Tbone said:


> I don't want to advocate that line of thinking, but I think people who say things such as, "Put all Muslims in prison!!!" or whatever; is because Islam is now beginning to be seen as a detriment to society by the general public. We lock people away for being crazy in psych wards don't we? I guess if you could make the case that Islam is an ideology that threatens society, It wouldn't seem so weird to govern that group of people. I myself don't care how bad it gets, I want to be able to freely think what I think and only get in trouble if I physically break the law.



When gun owners are declared to be a threat to society and locked up, that's okay? All of the gun-related deaths in America, just lock up anyone who possesses a gun. Problem solved.

Tbone, you talk about a threatening ideology and then say "I want to be able to freely think what I think"....your position doesn't make any sense.

Break, break:

Look, if I woke up tomorrow and realized that all 1.whatever billion Muslims were dead my only concern would be "I'm out of a job. Can I collect unemployment in the States." I genuinely don't care if every single one vaporized, but my "focused dislike" doesn't mean we should discard the Constitution which is exactly what you're advocating. We've surrendered enough with the Patriot Act and associated data collections, so now we'll decree Group A to be a threat and lock them up without a trial? That's the America you want to live in?


----------



## Brill (Nov 15, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> We've surrendered enough with the Patriot Act and associated data collections, so now we'll decree Group A to be a threat and lock them up without a trial? That's the America you want to live in?



What EXACTLY did you give up?


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 15, 2015)

Freefalling, I understand and it is not lost upon me how hypocritical I am being with regards to the position I am taking and my own constitutional belief's.

However, would you agree that in special circumstances (I.e. A state of war, emergency, etc) that the constitution can (as in legally) be and in some cases should be suspended? 

I don't want to see any good American's mistreated or having their rights restricted/removed. However, we have a serious problem that needs to be addressed, and waiting for terrorists to make their move, isn't a strategy im happy with or one I specifically think is working.

That all said, I fully agree with you, it's bullshit to want to strip people of their rights and lock them away, specifically based on their religious beliefs. It's also equally bullshit that people have used a religion as a justification to kill innocent people.


----------



## Brill (Nov 15, 2015)

JAB said:


> However, would you agree that in special circumstances (I.e. A state of war, emergency, etc) that *the constitution can (as in legally) be and in some cases should be suspended*?



Nope!  The document, in Art1 Section 9, (in part) "The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."

The rest of the document would have full force of those who have sworn to support and defend it.


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## AWP (Nov 15, 2015)

lindy said:


> What EXACTLY did you give up?



That's a fair point and one I'll take a hit for because I can't give a specific, not without doing some digging. I can say that thanks to the likes of Snowden and others I don't trust our gov't where its reassurances are concerned. I guess I should trust the gov't on this, it isn't like it has lied to us before....


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 15, 2015)

lindy said:


> Nope!  The document, in Art1 Section 9, (in part) "The privilege of the writ of habeas corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in cases of rebellion or invasion the public safety may require it."
> 
> The rest of the document would have full force of those who have sworn to support and defend it.



So ISIS fighters using a false refugee status to invade our country, or Americans who are Islamic extremists and attacking innocent Americans (such as the Navy/USMC recruiting station and Naval center), couldn't be considered to meet your above post for suspension of rights?


----------



## AWP (Nov 15, 2015)

JAB said:


> Freefalling, I understand and it is not lost upon me how hypocritical I am being with regards to the position I am taking and my own constitutional belief's.
> 
> However, would you agree that in special circumstances (I.e. A state of war, emergency, etc) that the constitution can (as in legally) be and in some cases should be suspended?
> 
> ...



I disagree with Clause 2, but it is the law. When our nation begins to pick and choose which portions of the Constitution to uphold or which to suspend we might as well form a new government because the old is null and void. Oh, here's a "threat." Here's a "rebellion" so let's strip away xxxxxxx. Your guns, your religion, the press, search and seizure....where does it end?

When we turn inward and begin devouring ourselves, the very idea of what it means to be an American, what did we accomplish? We saved the nation but destroyed her principles?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 15, 2015)

I think in very specific situations it has its place. Specifically the current threat we're under. But anyway, I get what you are saying and agree to a point. I also think we need to actually do something about this war we as a nation are pretending doesn't exist. When we have murderess bastards trying to kill innocent American's, using every law against us and all while we politically tie our own hands behind our backs. It just seems like we need to take another approach. At this point, my vote is for all out war, take every advantage away from them, and keep the sole focus on destroying all Islamic extremists, locking those up who are questionable and denying any advantage to our enemies.

YMMV


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## Brill (Nov 15, 2015)

JAB said:


> So ISIS fighters using a false refugee status to invade our country, or Americans who are Islamic extremists and attacking innocent Americans (such as the Navy/USMC recruiting station and Naval center), couldn't be considered to meet your above post for suspension of rights?



Well, SCOTUS didn't agree with Bush when he tried to suspend it for GITMO detainees.  I personally don't think America would stand for a suspension of the writ like when Lincoln and Grant did back in the mid-1800's.


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## Brill (Nov 15, 2015)

Oh Jesus...

*White House: ISIS has ambition for U.S. attack, but likely lacks capability*

White House: ISIS has ambition for U.S. attack, but likely lacks capability - CNNPolitics.com


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## Kraut783 (Nov 15, 2015)

nothing like challenging them.......idiots


----------



## Florida173 (Nov 15, 2015)

> French warplanes struck Islamic State militants in Syria on Sunday, a French government official said, two days after attackers linked to the terrorist group carried out a coordinated assault on Paris that killed 129 people.



http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/16/world/europe/france-islamic-state-syria.html?_r=0


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 15, 2015)

lindy said:


> Oh Jesus...
> 
> *White House: ISIS has ambition for U.S. attack, but likely lacks capability*
> 
> White House: ISIS has ambition for U.S. attack, but likely lacks capability - CNNPolitics.com


We are fucked.

The Paris attack happened less than (?) 24 hours after the last pronouncement, he's importing terrorists just in time for Christmas.

I wonder if the Democrats have a clue what happens when these imported jihadi start killing?


----------



## J.S. (Nov 15, 2015)

I'd have to agree with @Freefalling on the whole "lock-up the Muslims" deal. Although I believe that the very tenets of Islam are incompatible with Western civilization and the world would be better off without it, we simply can't imprison people because of their religion. Just my completely unqualified opinion.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Nov 15, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> We are fucked.
> 
> The Paris attack happened less than (?) 24 hours after the last pronouncement, he's importing terrorists just in time for Christmas.
> 
> I wonder if the Democrats have a clue what happens when these imported jihadi start killing?



I have come to believe that reality is not present @ 1600 Penn Ave. There is just the one, and he is a cool dude. He believes that nothing bad will happen to him or those within his sphere. I firmly believe that he has that part correct. Anything outside the sphere does not concern him. Everyone else are the ones that have problems. Pefhaps in time, he will become more aware of things, but that will not translate into any usable solution. If it worked for the past 7 years, it will work for the next nine. They only worry about what they can't control, and those around them, you know; like a feudal system of thinking.


----------



## Tbone (Nov 15, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> When gun owners are declared to be a threat to society and locked up, that's okay? All of the gun-related deaths in America, just lock up anyone who possesses a gun. Problem solved.
> 
> Tbone, you talk about a threatening ideology and then say "I want to be able to freely think what I think"....your position doesn't make any sense.
> 
> ...


I should of made it more visible that I was trying to make sense of why people say things like that. I wasn't agreeing with it like it may have sounded(and that is my fault). I totally agree with your point of view and realise it would probably be in vein to argue another point with such a wise chap as yourself. 

*have


----------



## AWP (Nov 15, 2015)

Tbone said:


> I should of made it more visible that I was trying to make sense of why people say things like that. I wasn't agreeing with it like it may have sounded(and that is my fault). I totally agree with your point of view and realise it would probably be in vein to argue another point with such a wise chap as yourself.
> 
> *have



We're not going to hijack the thread so if you want to continue this via PM that's fine, but I'll close with an "LOL" at your post above.


----------



## Rapid (Nov 15, 2015)

Here's another thing that fucking pisses me off. All these idiots on social media criticising the gestures people are making towards Paris -- going on about how lots of other people died in other parts of the world on the same day, and that they don't get the same gestures. So what, motherfuckers? We already know that people die in conflict-ridden countries every day. We're used to that. The point is that Europe is not a warzone (or at least it didn't use to be). This is pretty fucking significant, as opposed to car bomb #157623 in Iraq. Sorry, but it's true.

On another note, France is bombing Raqqa. Hopefully even the spineless socialists will push for some hefty payback for this.


----------



## Trev (Nov 15, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Here's another thing that fucking pisses me off. All these idiots on social media criticising the gestures people are making towards Paris -- going on about how lots of other people died in other parts of the world on the same day, and that they don't get the same gestures. So what, motherfuckers? We already know that people die in conflict-ridden countries every day. We're used to that. The point is that Europe is not a warzone (or at least it didn't use to be). This is pretty fucking significant, as opposed to car bomb #157623 in Iraq. Sorry, but it's true.
> 
> On another note, France is bombing Raqqa. Hopefully even the spineless socialists will push for some hefty payback for this.


 All these people are saying 'where is the hashtag for Kenya or Iraq?' Well fuck head those places are at war. Paris is major city. Which is this far west. That's the reason Paris is a big deal. ISIS is trying to show they can hit us this far away from countries that have been at war since 10,000,000 B.C.


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## TLDR20 (Nov 15, 2015)

Trev said:


> All these people are saying 'where is the hashtag for Kenya or Iraq?' Well fuck head those places are at war. Paris is major city. Which is this far west. That's the reason Paris is a big deal. ISIS is trying to show they can hit us this far away from countries that have been at war since 10,000,000 B.C.



Kenya is at war?


----------



## AWP (Nov 15, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Kenya is at war?



I think they are referring to a terrorist attack back in April.
147 killed in Kenya school attack, officials say  - CNN.com


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## Marauder06 (Nov 15, 2015)

Kenya is at war?[/QUOTE said:
			
		

> According to their president, as recently as April, yes.


----------



## x SF med (Nov 16, 2015)

JAB said:


> if it took locking every Muslim up in a camp for a few years, to gain some kind of control on this extremism bullshit


 So, you are advocating another Manzanar?
More from Densho.org.

I have to disagree with you based on the above... but do not have an answer for the extremist immigrant issue.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 16, 2015)

There are a few events throughout our history where we have dealt with ideological terrorism within our nations borders. A few examples:

Apache & Comanche raids on settlers in the Midwest. (although it was their territory first)

Private Militia raids leading up to and during the Civil war.

The KKK, during reconstruction and up to current times.

Communists movement in the early 1900's, never really got off the ground (or maybe they're just democrat's). lol

Black Panther and similar groups during the civil rights movement, lead to the militarization of Law Enforcement.

Obviously radical Islam from the 1970's to current.

These are just a few of the obvious situations where we have dealt with a form of terrorism that was used against American people. Some of our approaches in dealing with it have worked, some have not. As tragic and horrific as it was, the native American solution worked. Nobody wants to admit this, understandably, however, bands of Apache and Comanche no longer raid our cities, kill our people, rape our women and enslave us. I view what we did to the native Americans as atrocious and irreparable, however, it was in fact necessary to secure this current nation and the security of our citizens.

Now in dealing with smaller groups of people who use terrorism, we have tried the approach of intelligence and law enforcement, and it mostly works, and I'm for continuing to use these tools. But on a grander scale, how effective is it? How many of our people do we allow to die or be grievously wronged, before we say "we need to nip this in the butt once and for all"? How would we do that? What can we look to historically, that has worked on a grand scale, with long lasting effects?

As stated before, I am fully aware of the hypocrisy of taking the position I am, and my stance on the constitution and civil liberties. But unfortunately, I don't see us moving forward until we finally deal with this problem. I don't want my son spending his early adulthood in a fucking sandbox like I did, dealing with the same problem. I don't want my daughters feeling like they need to strap body armor and a gun on, to go watch a concert or sporting event. I don't want to kick this "terrorism" can down the road, for my kids and future grand kids to deal with. The future of my family and friends cannot in my opinion abide political correctness and emotional grandstanding.

And I am open to other idea's that are actual feasible, as in they would actually work. But I really haven't heard/read any, and the sabor rattling talking heads all repeat the same old crap " we need to hit them hard, go on the attack, tighten up our strategy". How about give us, the American people an actual strategic solution to this problem. How about we stop thinking in the present and think 50-75years down the road. Hell I would settle for the next decade.

I'm obviously frustrated and voicing some thoughts/opinion's. My goal isn't to hijack this thread or bombard it with crazy off the wall posts, and I do apologize for the lengthy posts. ;)


----------



## Sendero (Nov 16, 2015)

I come here daily, mainly to read the thoughts of men and women who have seen it first hand.  I wanted to share this video which I thought was insightful.  She makes some solid points from an Arab worldview and I believe we need more people like her to speak up. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.






*if the video doesn't fit here delete my post.  I realize I am a guest here.


----------



## Rapid (Nov 16, 2015)

Hollande has said France will "*destroy IS*". That the attacks were an act of war.

What does it say when even a French socialist sounds tougher than Obama? Time will tell if these words will be backed up, but I know that a lot of people are unbelievably pissed off and eager to see this through.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 16, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Hollande has said France will "*destroy IS*". That the attacks were an act of war.
> 
> What does it say when even a French socialist sounds tougher than Obama? Time will tell if these words will be backed up, but I know that a lot of people are unbelievably pissed off and eager to see this through.



Just out of curiosity, what is the French military capabilities? Specifically, putting boots on the ground and ability to route ISIS on the ground. I don't know much about the French military and its capabilities, outside of some of the smaller operations they've conducted in recent years.

I hope you're right and France kicks the shit out of ISIS, someone needs to.


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 16, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Hollande has said France will "*destroy IS*". That the attacks were an act of war.
> 
> What does it say when even a French socialist sounds tougher than Obama? Time will tell if these words will be backed up, but I know that a lot of people are unbelievably pissed off and eager to see this through.


We'll see.  Will they ask to invoke Article 5?  It was done after 9.11.

For Obama's part, he says, "We have the right strategy and we're going to see it through".  Clearly.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 16, 2015)




----------



## CDG (Nov 16, 2015)

It's not about religion though.  Just ask NATO chief Jens Stoltenberg.  NATO Chief: Paris Attacks Are Not a Fight Between West and Islam


----------



## poison (Nov 16, 2015)

Brown Pundits: Unreal Islam

This is highly relevant, written by a Muslim.


----------



## Tbone (Nov 16, 2015)

JAB said:


>


I'm surprised 'ol Ibrahim is still alive....


----------



## AWP (Nov 16, 2015)

JAB said:


> Just out of curiosity, what is the French military capabilities? Specifically, putting boots on the ground and ability to route ISIS on the ground. I don't know much about the French military and its capabilities, outside of some of the smaller operations they've conducted in recent years.



In 2013 their Army had about 115k personnel, 7,100 armored vehicles, and 300 helos. The Navy has around 30 Rafele's and a few E-2C's. The Air Force has 220-ish combat aircraft plus cargo, tankers, etc.

DEFENCE KEY FIGURES

Something to consider though: when they went into Africa a few years ago they did so with US cargo and ISR support. Basing in a friendly country with access to sea lanes can greatly offset the former, but the latter would still need help.

My layman's view is if they gutted their AF and Navy they could put a sufficient number of a/c in theater to place them on par with our commitment. They would still need our ISR and tanker support. Troops...they would need a nation that allowed them to pass tens of thousands of troops across its borders.

I feel for France and her people but "destroy" is rhetoric. They can't do it without the rest of us being on board in a major way.


----------



## Rapid (Nov 16, 2015)

Yes, it's probably not going to be what many of us would like it to be. But the pressure is going to be stepped up, and I think that more than a few countries will be willing to help.

At the very least, they will not survive in their existing form.

Russia to JOIN West to beat ISIS - Putin tells Cameron it's time 'we worked TOGETHER'

And at least the rhetoric is better than anything coming out of the Obama administration. It's just shockingly bad.


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 16, 2015)

Putin is another part of the equation and he can't be ignored in all this.  If we don't step up and he does, who holds greater influence after the dust settles?  Right now, Putin is making all the right moves because he's looking around the corner.


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 16, 2015)

Sendero said:


> I come here daily, mainly to read the thoughts of men and women who have seen it first hand.  I wanted to share this video which I thought was insightful.  She makes some solid points from an Arab worldview and I believe we need more people like her to speak up. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


She makes some good points ( and she has nice tits)


----------



## Sendero (Nov 16, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> She makes some good points ( and she has nice tits)



Just an added bonus to the advancement of Western cultures and values.


----------



## Rapid (Nov 16, 2015)

A shield used by police entering the Bataclan.


----------



## x SF med (Nov 16, 2015)

Rapid said:


> A shield used by police entering the Bataclan.



But, But, But...... France is one of the weapons free EU nations ....  so those can't be bullet holes:wall:...   Oh, wait, law abiding French can't own guns other than hunting style, non-mil calibers and shotguns...

I counted 22 holes in the shield...  the perpetrators (how PC) must have been armed for bear, moose and squirrel....


----------



## Rapid (Nov 16, 2015)

Bataclan: un commissaire et son chauffeur, premiers sur les lieux, ont abattu un jihadiste

Quick translation:

"A *police commissioner *of the anti-crime brigade (BAC 75) and his driver were the first to enter the Bataclan during the hostage crisis. The commissioner managed to shoot and kill one of the jihadists, stopping him from firing on more civilians. Unfortunately, they arrived armed only with their standard handguns and standard body armor. After the initial exchange, they had to pull back in the face of multiple AK-wielding jihadists."

Attentat à Paris: Comment les policiers de la BRI ont sauvé des otages au Bataclan

Another quick translation: 



> They entered the building at 22:15 and didn't see any terrorists. Total silence, and they thought that they had actually fled. It took them a long time to clear the main hall area and secure the survivors.
> 
> At 23:15 they finally found the terrorists in another corridor, separated by just a door. They tried negotiating, and this lasted 50 minutes. The terrorists were hiding behind 20 hostages.
> 
> Then the assault team saw an opportunity to attack, which they did. The final assault lasted 3 minutes. All 20 hostages were saved, which is absolutely crazy.



he photo of the shield above is from when they converged on the terrorists and saved the final 20 hostages.


----------



## Rapid (Nov 16, 2015)

x SF med said:


> But, But, But...... France is one of the weapons free EU nations ....  so those can't be bullet holes:wall:...   Oh, wait, law abiding French can't own guns other than hunting style, non-mil calibers and shotguns...



Nope. You're definitely wrong on that. They just don't let every Tom, Dick and Harry have access to assault rifles, etc. There are a lot of stringent checks, but anyone with a clean record and who puts in the time and effort (from 1 month to 6 months) to complete the training, can own what McChrystal thinks shouldn't be in the hands of anyone but the military.

Hell, you can even buy an AR15 online.

Pack Carabine SCHMEISSER AR 15 M4 14.5 + 500 cartouches + 2 chargeurs Cal 223Rem Arme d'épaule

SIG Fusil 716 PATROL 308 WIN Arme d'épaule Cat B2

In that respect, France is not the UK.


----------



## Dame (Nov 16, 2015)

The answer to the burning question, "Who's doing the refugee vetting?"



> _According to Molenbeek's former mayor, until a few days ago Mohamed Abdeslam, one of the suspects in the Paris attacks, worked in the municipal immigration department.
> The mother of a Paris suicide bomber says her son 'did not mean to kill anyone' - and claims he may have blown himself up because of stress...
> Ibrahim's mother suggested his suicide jacket may have gone off by accident and said he could have carried out the attack because he was 'stressed'._


The "Leader of the Free World" and his "Universal Values"


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 16, 2015)

I like how several state Governors have said "No" to accepting any refugees.....losing battle, but still nice


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 16, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> She makes some good points ( and she has nice tits)



I agree.....she does have some good points....and ya, nice tits


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 16, 2015)

Kraut783 said:


> I like how several state Governors have said "No" to accepting any refugees.....losing battle, but still nice



Although I hope Texas sticks to their guns on the issue, technically it's against the Texas constitution. Might be time for a special session and amendment.


----------



## Trev (Nov 16, 2015)

JAB said:


> Although I hope Texas sticks to their guns on the issue, technically it's against the Texas constitution. Might be time for a special session and amendment.


 Texas always stick to their guns. Literally.


----------



## x SF med (Nov 16, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Nope. You're definitely wrong on that. They just don't let every Tom, Dick and Harry have access to assault rifles, etc. There are a lot of stringent checks, but anyone with a clean record and who puts in the time and effort (from 1 month to 6 months) to complete the training, can own what McChrystal thinks shouldn't be in the hands of anyone but the military.
> 
> Hell, you can even buy an AR15 online.
> 
> ...



Well....... in that case, what I own would make McChrystal very unnerved...


----------



## AWP (Nov 17, 2015)

Watching the BBC right now. They covered Charlie Sheen before doing a piece on the victims. Give it a week and this will be buried.


----------



## The Accountant (Nov 17, 2015)

Putin has Russian Navy assisting France against ISIS now apparently. Curious to see how this will change U.S./French/Russian relations, mostly due to the relation between U.S. and Russia. Hollande is seeking more cooperation/relations between the three nations apparently.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Nov 17, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Watching the BBC right now. They covered Charlie Sheen before doing a piece on the victims. Give it a week and this will be buried.



I  just don't see the reason his HIV is a world wide "news" event.


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 17, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Watching the BBC right now. They covered Charlie Sheen before doing a piece on the victims. Give it a week and this will be buried.


Who are the named victims?


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 17, 2015)

K9Quest said:


> Putin has Russian Navy assisting France against ISIS now apparently. Curious to see how this will change U.S./French/Russian relations, mostly due to the relation between U.S. and Russia. Hollande is seeking more cooperation/relations between the three nations apparently.


And in other news, John Kerry is France to extend our condolences and discuss how we can expand our cooperation. 

Russia, France pound ISIS targets in Syria

It's difficult to articulate my frustration with the inability/incompetence of our current administration.  Whether it be the release of GITMO detainees a day after the attacks in France, announcing the acceptance of refugees in the days following, or announcing status quo on our approach to ISIS.  The messages are incredibly poor (to say the least) and the timing of delivery is even worse (hard to believe that's possible).  It's truly mindboggling.   Hell, even Anonymous has this one figured out and thrown down.  The administration's actions are tantamount to the house being on fire and they're out in the front yard arranging flowers.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 17, 2015)

It will take a nuclear bombing here in the states, before our dead head population wakes the fuck up. I think its pretty clear Obama is coming full circle in being the worst president in our history.


----------



## Totentanz (Nov 17, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Watching the BBC right now. They covered Charlie Sheen before doing a piece on the victims. Give it a week and this will be buried.



:wall:


----------



## poison (Nov 17, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Bataclan: un commissaire et son chauffeur, premiers sur les lieux, ont abattu un jihadiste
> 
> Quick translation:
> 
> ...



So Badass. I would like to buy the commissioner and his driver a beer.


----------



## poison (Nov 17, 2015)

I was torn on the refugee issue, but after reading wha the process is for refugees (it's long and arduous), I have to say 'bring them'. Why? Because our border is ope, and tthat's a far more likely point of entrance for jihadis. Why go through screening, interviews, vetting, and bullshit, when they can simply fly here, or pay some coyote $5k and come in armed and completely undocumented? 

The focus is on the wrong thing here.


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 17, 2015)

poison said:


> I was torn on the refugee issue, but after reading wha the process is for refugees (it's long and arduous), I have to say 'bring them'. Why? Because our border is ope, and tthat's a far more likely point of entrance for jihadis. Why go through screening, interviews, vetting, and bullshit, when they can simply fly here, or pay some coyote $5k and come in armed and completely undocumented.


I've looked at it as well.  Overview:
How do Syrian refugees get into the U.S.?  - CNNPolitics.com

There is nothing I've read that ensures they're vetted in any meaningful way (is this kind of like, "you can keep your doctor?").  They're interviewed (usually 2 or 3 rounds) but many are undocumented and we have little more to rely on than thier statements.   Sure, the process is lengthy and complex, but that doesn't equate to quality or thoroughness in any way.   I'm not sure many can be vetted; even the Director of the FBI stated as much just last month:
FBI Director Admits US Can’t Vet All Syrian Refugees For Terror Ties [VIDEO]

Even more to the point, why should they have preference over those that actually earned the opportunity and have been waiting for years:
Forget the Syrian refugees. America needs to bring its Afghan and Iraqi interpreters here first.

The entire timing is piss poor.


----------



## poison (Nov 17, 2015)

But why go through that hassle, when the border is open? When they can just fly here on a visa? 

If we want to minimize threats, close the border, it'll have more effect.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 17, 2015)

poison said:


> But why go through that hassle, when the border is open? When they can just fly here on a visa?
> 
> If we want to minimize threats, close the border, it'll have more effect.



I don't think anyone will disagree with securing our borders. However, she issue of just open arms come on in to refugees of Syria and Iraq, is a bit different and IMHO, insanity.


----------



## Rapid (Nov 17, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> Hell, even Anonymous has this one figured out and thrown down.



This is probably the closest ISIS will ever get to 72 virgins.


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 17, 2015)

poison said:


> But why go through that hassle, when the border is open? When they can just fly here on a visa?
> 
> If we want to minimize threats, close the border, it'll have more effect.


Perhaps you and I have different definitions but our border is not "open".


----------



## poison (Nov 17, 2015)

There's about 11 million people who would disagree.


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 17, 2015)

I understand your point but being here illegally does not equal open borders.


----------



## TLDR20 (Nov 17, 2015)

Don't you think the vast vast majority of refugees are fleeing the same things we are trying to avoid?


----------



## Ranger Psych (Nov 17, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> I understand your point but being here illegally does not equal open borders.



When you can just stroll across the border unnoticed, then yes, we have an open border. Regardless of laws implying otherwise.


----------



## policemedic (Nov 17, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I  just don't see the reason his HIV is a world wide "news" event.



I had a headache this morning. Call Amanpour!


----------



## amorris127289 (Nov 17, 2015)

Report: German stadium evacuated after ambulance filled with explosives found

Not sure about the credibility of the site. I saw one headline on CNN and searched for a second and found this one.

An ambulance was found outside of a German soccer stadium full of explosives.


----------



## Dienekes (Nov 17, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Don't you think the vast vast majority of refugees are fleeing the same things we are trying to avoid?



I would agree on the vast majority. I cant remember where I saw it, but it was something like this: If you had a large bowl full of grapes and you knew that only one of them was poisonous, but you didn't know which one, would you still eat them?


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 17, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Don't you think the vast vast majority of refugees are fleeing the same things we are trying to avoid?



Probably, but would you agree that some are probably ISIS fighter's attempting to infiltrate western countries for future attacks?


----------



## AWP (Nov 17, 2015)

amorris127289 said:


> An ambulance was found outside of a German soccer stadium full of explosives.



/Comic Intermission.

Neil McCauley approves.






/Comic Intermission.


----------



## policemedic (Nov 17, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> Perhaps you and I have different definitions but our border is not "open".



Functionally they are.


----------



## The Accountant (Nov 17, 2015)

I see both sides of the argument, I mainly sway in favor of not allowing them within our borders.. However, I thought of a scenario that falls somewhat in the middle of the two general thoughts of the refugees. It would involve taking in the mothers and children only, sending the men back to fight against the very reason they are fleeing to begin with. Obviously its a general thought that doesn't determine who is deemed a child versus a man (at which age can a boy be considered to fight) also where elderly folk fit in. Merely a general thought that entered my mind, whether or not its a viable solution is unknown to me. 

If they succeed, the women and children obviously able to return to their homeland or have the option of the men joining them in the U.S. through a extensive process and check ups of the family here in the States during the conflict. Citizenship to anyone not granted until the situation reaches a resolution.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Nov 17, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> /Comic Intermission.
> 
> Neil McCauley approves.
> 
> ...




Bringing some "Heat" to the day.


----------



## TLDR20 (Nov 17, 2015)

JAB said:


> Probably, but would you agree that some are probably ISIS fighter's attempting to infiltrate western countries for future attacks?



Sure. Trying, but they could also be flying in, trekking across from Mexico or Canada, getting into a boat and sailing across the ocean. At least this way(refugee) we know they are here, and can be easier to track.


----------



## AWP (Nov 17, 2015)

I thought we could use a chuckle to break up the doom and gloom. Even my pessimist self needs to laugh now and then.

Back on topic: I would close our borders, if such a thing is possible, to refugees if for no other reason than we had problems before. Christ, we keep kicking the can down the road on our border/ illegal immigrant debate and now we find ourselves with a no-shit security issue. Seriously, Americans will talk about human rights and everything, but let another major attack occur on US soil. The masses will lose their minds.

We had a problem before and we blew it off, how much more do we need before we'll do something about it? The director of the CIA is already calling for more domestic surveillance options, another debate that has airtime and is then quietly pushed aside. Terrorism should force us into action and finding solutions for questions about security, but instead we're talking about fantasy football scandals, Sheen's infected tiger blood, and whatever else.

But, yeah, I'd halt the flow of refugees until we can sort out a lasting solution. That could take forever and a day, but we've dumped on Iraqis and Afghans who sacrificed everything for us and we'll take in people even other Arab/ Muslim nations won't have?

C'mon man...


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 17, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Sure. Trying, but they could also be flying in, trekking across from Mexico or Canada, getting into a boat and sailing across the ocean. At least this way(refugee) we know they are here, and can be easier to track.



About the only way I would agree with bringing these refugees into our country. Is if they went into camps, until they were 100% vetted, gainful employment had been procured and there was a strict probationary period with periodic check up, etc. 

I'm not apposed to good people coming here and making a new life for themselves, that's the American dream at its finest. I am however, against half cocked emotionally and politically fueled ideas, that put our citizens at risk.

On another note, with regards to border security and or "sealing" the S/W border. It's not possible, the terrain is inhospitable for any sustained operations. Strategic fencing, high traffic area patrolling and 100% ISR coverage is about as good as its going to get.

Anyone who disagrees, I'm more than willing to take you on an outing in S/W Texas and show you exactly what I mean...


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 17, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Sure. Trying, but they could also be flying in, trekking across from Mexico or Canada, getting into a boat and sailing across the ocean. At least this way(refugee) we know they are here, and can be easier to track.


No one is attempting to track them once they enter.  That fact has been made perfectly clear by resettlement groups.

As to the comment(s) about borders being functionally "open", perhaps.  Without drifting too far off topic, again, I understand the argument and, while such a comment may be a bit of an overstatement, the point is a fair one.  However, they're still here illegally and, if caught, subject to detainment and deportation.  As weak as it's been the last several years, we still do deport people.  However, border enforcement really is a separate issue.

All that said, would you give Syrian refugees preference over the thousnds of interpreters/translators that have directly helped our troops in Iraq/Afghanistan, many of whom have been waiting for special Visas for years?  If so, why?

Count me as "not on board"!


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 17, 2015)

I'll post the article later tonight, but the one point the author made is these are migrants, and not refugees.


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 17, 2015)

It's worth it for the refugees to do through the process.....you see, when they can, they start the process to bring the rest of their family over.


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 17, 2015)

Mmmm....the definition of a Refugee is "a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster."


----------



## Red-Dot (Nov 17, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> And in other news, John Kerry is France to extend our condolences and discuss how we can expand our cooperation.
> 
> Russia, France pound ISIS targets in Syria
> 
> It's difficult to articulate my frustration with the inability/incompetence of our current administration.  Whether it be the release of GITMO detainees a day after the attacks in France, announcing the acceptance of refugees in the days following, or announcing status quo on our approach to ISIS.  The messages are incredibly poor (to say the least) and the timing of delivery is even worse (hard to believe that's possible).  It's truly mindboggling.   Hell, even Anonymous has this one figured out and thrown down.  The administration's actions are tantamount to the house being on fire and they're out in the front yard arranging flowers.


Did James Taylor accompany him?


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 17, 2015)

Red-Dot said:


> Did James Taylor accompany him?


Not this time.  Evidently, this time it was just a one buffoon job.


----------



## Brill (Nov 17, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> At least this way(refugee) we know they are here, and can be easier to track.



We can't track student and work visa holders!


----------



## Rapid (Nov 17, 2015)

It must be incredibly frustrating as an Islamic terrorist to not have your views and motives taken seriously by the societies you terrorize, even after you've explicitly and repeatedly stated them. Even worse, those on the regressive left, in their endless capacity for masochism and self-loathing, have attempted to shift blame inwardly on themselves, denying the terrorists even the satisfaction of claiming responsibility. It's like a bad Monty Python sketch.

"We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it."

"No you didn't."

"Wait, what? Yes we did..."

"No, this has nothing to do with religion. You guys are just using religion as a front for social and geopolitical reasons."

"WHAT!? Did you even read our official statement? We give explicit Quranic justification. This is jihad, a holy crusade against pagans, blasphemers, and disbelievers."

"No, this is definitely not a Muslim thing. You guys are not true Muslims, and you defame a great religion by saying so."

"Huh!? Who are you to tell us we're not true Muslims!? Islam is literally at the core of everything we do, and we have implemented the truest most literal and honest interpretation of its founding texts. It is our very reason for being."

"Nope. We created you. We installed a social and economic system that alienates and disenfranchises you, and that's why you did this. We're sorry."

"What? Why are you apologizing? We just slaughtered you mercilessly in the streets. We targeted unwitting civilians - disenfranchisement doesn't even enter into it!"

"Listen, it's our fault. We don't blame you for feeling unwelcome and lashing out."

"Seriously, stop taking credit for this! We worked really hard to pull this off, and we're not going to let you take it away from us."

"No, we nourished your extremism. We accept full blame."

"OMG, how many people do we have to kill around here to finally get our message across?"


----------



## JBS (Nov 17, 2015)

*Definitely NO to refugees.*

We all agree that there is almost a 100% certainty that some small but significant percentage of the refugees are going to be* trained fighters, with the intent to destroy American targets.*

We also all agree that there is *no *way to reliably screen for the fighters that are infiltrating amongst the refugees.

We need to treat America like we'd treat our home.  You wouldn't let "mostly" good crowds of thousands of people in and out of your home at all hours of the night, especially with the (almost certain) knowledge that, say, .5% of that crowd wants (and knows how) to kill you, your wife, your son, your daughter.  That same 0.5% has literally been practicing to kill you and your family by strangling and torturing dogs, cats, rats, goats for years as they harden themselves against their victims' plea for mercy.

Still on board?  If so, let's make sure the refugees settlement camp is in your neighborhood where you can greet them with "free hugs".



EDITED TO ADD:  It was mentioned that if they come in through the "vetting" process, (which anyone who knows anything about it knows it's a joke) they will be easier to track.    So, now we're going to "track" 20,000 to 30,000 people?   Because that's kind of the problem.  When you can't reliably vet, you can't single out that sample that requires the tracking.  So you have to "track" them all.


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 17, 2015)

Kraut783 said:


> Mmmm....the definition of a Refugee is "a person who has been forced to leave their country in order to escape war, persecution, or natural disaster."


Historically families went as refugees, not just a single person.
That's the point the author was making (I'll post the article in a couple of hours)


----------



## Trev (Nov 17, 2015)

129 People dead in a major city this far west-ward. ISIS openly says they plan on mixing terrorists in with the refugees. A Canadian Soldier and an RCAF Firefighter killed on Canadian soil. The Canadian Parliment attacked. ISIS plans cyber attack on the UK. And the only thing people want to talk about now is Charlie Sheen's HIV. (I'm honestly not supprised he has it.) We need world leaders like this  again.


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 17, 2015)

Here is the link to the article

16 Of The Worst Ways To Respond To ISIS' Paris Attack

and the specific paragraph (there is a link in the 1st paragraph that will take you to another article)

Millions of people have left Syria in search of better economic prospects or relief from the ongoing civil war. As discussed in “When Is A Refugee Really A Migrant?” there are differences between different groups of people. For refugees, you frequently see entire families leaving and both men and women leaving. For migrants seeking work, different patterns emerge. In the case of the current migrant/refugee crisis, more than 70 percent are adult males, and only about 15 percent are children. It’s unclear why the demographics are so overwhelmingly adult and male, but it’s something journalists and policy makers should be interested in answering, particularly as they position the crisis as one affecting refugees.

Related to this discussion, one of the terrorists in Paris had a Syrian passport with him that he used to come in — with refugees — to France and passed through five countries on his way there.

Obama has promised to take in 10,000 Syrian refugees this fiscal year. Some Americans question whether the country’s security bureaucracy would protect against threats from eager ISIS terrorists. Americans are concerned about border security in general, even before wondering if the government can handle something as delicate as a resettlement program. As mentioned above, more than half of the country’s governors are expressing concern about the plan. In fact, only 14 percent of the states are still accepting Syrian refugees. Other Americans say that it’s the country’s humanitarian duty to welcome Syrians. To my mind, both concern for security of the country and for Syrians in need are understandable.

But people pretty much lost their minds when discussing the situation. Some GOP presidential candidates, such as Mike Huckabee and Chris Christie, went way overboard in expressing concerns about security. Others caricatured security concerns with a notable lack of charity


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 17, 2015)

Good article, but still say refugee.....as they are using the status of refugee to be able to gain a status in a country offering refugee status for people.


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 17, 2015)

Kraut783 said:


> Good article, but still say refugee.....as they are using the status of refugee to be able to gain a status in a country offering refugee status for people.


That's why we need to change it to migrants.
The next wave from CentAm will claim refugee status and we are fucked.


----------



## dsumner (Nov 17, 2015)

Dienekes said:


> I would agree on the vast majority. I cant remember where I saw it, but it was something like this: If you had a large bowl full of grapes and you knew that only one of them was poisonous, but you didn't know which one, would you still eat them?



My question is this, using that same logic, the next time someone tries to pass legislation to ban firearms, based on the fact that someone, somewhere might use one of those firearms to commit a crime, are you going to support it with the same vigor as some of the suggestions being floated about allowing Muslims into the country. Especially when I can actually show you many Americans have been killed using firearms vs. how man have been killed in terrorist attacks committed by Muslim refugees.


----------



## policemedic (Nov 17, 2015)

So you're trying to equate something that is intrinsically dangerous regardless of the possessor's intent (a poisonous grape) with a neutral mechanical object whose danger is completely dependent on its user?

You may want to revisit that exercise in logic.


----------



## Dame (Nov 17, 2015)

What do you want to bet they aren't done counting these up yet?



> The full scale of the trade in false passports that allows terrorists to slip into Europe was exposed last night.
> 
> It lets Islamic State fanatics who are bent on murder pose as refugees fleeing war and persecution.
> 
> Eight migrants have reached Europe using documents almost identical to those carried by one of the Paris suicide bombers.


EIGHT migrants have same papers as those found on suicide bomber


----------



## Dienekes (Nov 18, 2015)

@dsumner I believe you missed the point of the metaphor


----------



## Centermass (Nov 18, 2015)

Current: French authorities were able to track down and locate suspects of Fridays massacre, in the Saint Denis area of northern Paris. 1 suspect and a female suicide bomber have been killed.

Skynews states the female was wearing a PBIED and was able to detonate it. 1 passerby was killed as well.

The situation is still in flux and the operation ongoing.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 18, 2015)

From what I can find, it appears that the French stopped something that was about to go down...the dead woman is the wife of one of the bad guys...

One Paris jihadi shot dead and female suicide bomber blows herself up


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 18, 2015)

But...but...she was a woman.  They're not a threat, right?


----------



## TLDR20 (Nov 18, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> But...but...she was a woman.  They're not a threat, right?



Who the fuck said that?


----------



## Kheenbish (Nov 18, 2015)

It seems to me why try to risk entering a country illegally possibly encounter border patrol or the FBI, when you have a legal way to enter a country through the "refugee" process. I don't believe ISIS or terrorist organizations have a set timeline to get these things done. On a another, but similar note, they won't be trying to send in 20 or so trained fighters to go bomb one building or shoot up another, they only need one mastermind, leader, whatever they call themselves to take the already radicalized Islam population within a country and tell them "Hey you really want jihad, take this SVEST and walk into that building and I'll blow your ass up, you'll have virgins in no time". I don't have a perfect solution for this, because we helped fucked up the Middle East, but American leadership has to stop leading from behind.


----------



## x SF med (Nov 18, 2015)

Rapid said:


> It must be incredibly frustrating as an Islamic terrorist to not have your views and motives taken seriously by the societies you terrorize, even after you've explicitly and repeatedly stated them. Even worse, those on the regressive left, in their endless capacity for masochism and self-loathing, have attempted to shift blame inwardly on themselves, denying the terrorists even the satisfaction of claiming responsibility. It's like a bad Monty Python sketch.
> 
> "We did this because our holy texts exhort us to to do it."
> 
> ...



Well written, insightful, inciteful, humorous, and full of truth....  John Cleese, Terry Gilliam, Eric Idle, Graham Chapman, Terry jones and Michael Palin should be proud that you are following in their footsteps.


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 18, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Who the fuck said that?


No one has overtly said it that I'm aware of, however, it's been clearly implied numerous times by a variety of groups/people, including the State Department and the President, in reference to Syrian refugees:

State Dept: 2% Of Syrian Refugees In U.S. Are Military-Aged, With No...
“Our emphasis is on admitting the most vulnerable Syrians – particularly survivors of violence and torture, those with severe medical conditions, and women and children – in a manner that is consistent with U.S. national security,” a State Department spokesperson told BuzzFeed News. “*Military-aged males unattached to families comprise only approximately two percent of Syrian refugee admissions to date.*”

Today:
Obama Mocks Republicans on Refugee Stance
"*Apparently, they are scared of widows and orphans coming into the United States of America*," the president said. "At first they were too scared of the press being too tough on them in the debates. Now they are scared of 3-year-old orphans. That doesn't seem so tough to me."

Those are just a couple examples of statements from today's news - there are many more.   It's as if to say, "Not military aged males? Well, nothing to see here...move along."

Military age males are not the only ones that pose a threat and it's not just little old ladies and infants that are resettling.  Seems this fact is lost on some of our "leaders".  Ex.
ISIS child soldiers: What happens when they grow up? - CNN.com

@Kheenbish's post above highlights a very plausible scenario.


----------



## JBS (Nov 18, 2015)

*Stadium Full of MODERATE Muslims "Boo" Paris Victims At Soccer Match*

Loud boos heard in Turkish stadium during 'moment of silence' for Paris victims



> A planned "moment of silence" for victims of the Paris massacre was suddenly interrupted by loud boos and apparent cries of "Allahu Akbar" ("God is great") from soccer fans at a stadium in Turkey Tuesday.
> "Our fans should have behaved," Turkish manager Fatih Terim said after the friendly match against Greece. Organizers of other soccer matches across Europe held their own moments of silence with more cooperation.
> It was unclear whether any of the Turkish fans were intentionally supporting ISIS or the attackers. The moment of silence was supposed to last for one minute.


 
Awesome.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 18, 2015)

JBS said:


> *Stadium Full of MODERATE Muslims "Boo" Paris Victims At Soccer Match*
> 
> Loud boos heard in Turkish stadium during 'moment of silence' for Paris victims
> 
> ...



Just turns my blood. There just comes a point where you have to admit what this really is. An intolerant ideology rooted in barbarism, that is stuck in thousand year old thinking, attempting to take over the world. They have nothing to offer the modern world, they are not conforming to modern society and have no place amongst our citizens.


----------



## poison (Nov 18, 2015)

Hey Kerry, go fuck yourself. 

“There’s something different about what happened from Charlie Hebdo, and I think everybody would feel that,” Kerry said. “There was a sort of particularized focus and perhaps even a legitimacy in terms of — not a legitimacy, but a rationale that you could attach yourself to somehow and say, ‘Okay, they’re really angry because of this and that"


Right, because the cartoonists were asking for it, and the rest were evil jewz. 

Fucking dipshit.


----------



## poison (Nov 18, 2015)

Where does this liberal desire to <3 Muslims come from? Islam (yes, Islam, not just militant Islam) is the polar opposite of everything liberalism stands for, which should be inclusion, culture, education, equality, etc. Islam hates gays, women, pretty much everyone, including the liberals fawning over them, and (radical Islam)  would eat them alive if it could (and it's trying). So why the innate desire to pander to a misogynistic, racist religion/movement. 

Oh, right, 'you just have to understand...'.


----------



## poison (Nov 18, 2015)

Beloved French Police Dog Killed, Five Officers Injured During Paris Anti-Terror Raid

Five thousand. 

Five000.

5k.

Lolwow.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 18, 2015)

5k rds? What did they deploy a rifle platoon on that ass? That's a lot of bang, for an urban LE type raid.


----------



## medicchick (Nov 18, 2015)

poison said:


> Beloved French Police Dog Killed, Five Officers Injured During Paris Anti-Terror Raid
> 
> Five thousand.
> 
> ...



I like this part...



> ...and the apartment building is so badly damaged that it could totally collapse.


----------



## Grunt (Nov 18, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> 5k rds? What did they deploy a rifle platoon on that ass? That's a lot of bang, for an urban LE type raid.



Phalanx


----------



## Rapid (Nov 18, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> 5k rds? What did they deploy a rifle platoon on that ass? That's a lot of bang, for an urban LE type raid.



One of the bodies was so riddled with impacts that they couldn't identify it at first. Still not near enough -- make it 10,000 rounds next time.

Though honestly, that piece of info was probably a miscommunication and it's more likely that 5000 rounds is the total amount the assault team went in with. I doubt it was the total expended -- I don't think it adds up with the number of gunshots heard in amateur videos captured in the area --, though it's not impossible either.

Fake edit: another source says 5000 was the total expended including the terrorists' firing back. Would make sense, as they arrested a number of people in the apartment... which might've been hard if they really did pump the whole place with that many rounds.


----------



## poison (Nov 18, 2015)

Look, at that point, just take a page from West Bank Operations 101 and drive a D9 through the middle of the building.


----------



## Rapid (Nov 18, 2015)

> *In Washington conservative lawmakers have advanced a bill that would increase screening for Syrian and Iraqi refugees arriving in the US,* as Republicans continue to fight back against resettlement programs that have so far only brought about 2,000 refugees to the country.
> 
> *Barack Obama promptly promised to veto the bill *should it reach his desk, with the White House saying its terms “would unacceptably hamper our efforts to assist some of the most vulnerable people in the world.”



What in the fucking fuck? "Hmm, well this is a sensible measure, but I guess I'll veto it just to rub it into the face of the opposition."

It's not even about stopping them from coming. Just making the right checks. Obama seems more and more like a fucking liability to his country, playing political football with national security.



poison said:


> Look, at that point, just take a page from West Bank Operations 101 and drive a D9 through the middle of the building.



Sure, but they actually wanted them alive (and did take most of them alive -- apart from the suicide bomber who blew herself up, and one guy taken out by a sniper). It wouldn't take 5000 rounds (minus whatever the terrorists fired) if they just wanted to kill them.


----------



## JBS (Nov 18, 2015)

Rapid said:


> *[snip] In Washington conservative lawmakers have advanced a bill that would increase screening for Syrian and Iraqi refugees arriving in the US,* [snip]
> 
> *[snip]Barack Obama promptly promised to veto the bill *should it reach his desk, [snip].”



What THEE fuck?


----------



## Brill (Nov 18, 2015)

poison said:


> “There’s something different about what happened from Charlie Hebdo, and I think everybody would feel that,” Kerry said. “There was a sort of particularized focus and perhaps even a legitimacy in terms of — not a legitimacy, but a rationale that you could attach yourself to somehow and say, ‘Okay, they’re really angry because of this and that"



Just another example how this administration does NOT understand the fight we are in.  Brush up on your Levantine my friends...it's not "if" but "when" we'll be back over there.


----------



## Rapid (Nov 18, 2015)

Honduras arrests five US-bound Syrians with stolen passports - BBC News



> Police in Honduras have arrested * five Syrians* who were travelling on stolen Greek passports and *intended to enter the United States by land. *
> 
> The five men were detained on Tuesday night after arriving on a flight from neighbouring El Salvador, police said.



How many others haven't been caught? How many others made it through in the past? When it comes to these attacks, it's always a question of when, not if.


----------



## Rapid (Nov 18, 2015)

Paris attacks: Bataclan police describe 'hellish' siege - BBC News







*Police who stormed concert hall during the Paris attacks "really saw hell"*

Officers who entered the Bataclan are not allowed to speak on camera about what they saw, but police union spokesman Nicolas Comte has recounted their story to the BBC. He said: "Inside the Bataclan, there was someone who was talking to the police by phone. He was hiding in a technical area. He told us he could hear more shooting, he could hear they were still executing people." Mr Comte said specially trained police then began their assault on the building.

"At first they thought they were walking in water, then they realised it was blood," he told the BBC's Damian Grammaticas. "They had to make their way in the dark, stepping over bodies. "The wounded lying there saw the police. They were calling out to the officers, moaning, begging them. They tried to catch hold of my colleague as [he] went past but the officers couldn't help them." Speaking in French, Mr Comte said the police had to "neutralise the terrorists before they could save everyone". He said the attackers fired at the advancing police, and 27 rounds hit a metal shield officers were using to protect themselves.

"There were around 20 hostages between them and the attackers," he said. "The officers realised they had to finish things quickly. They managed to shoot one and soon, as he saw that, the second one blew himself up." Officers took in the full horror of the scene after the attackers were dead, Mr Comte said. "*They saw there were tens and tens of bodies lying on top of each other, some with terrible injuries,*" he said. "*Many of them were very very young.* My colleagues told me: 'We really saw hell tonight'."






There's an "afterwards" photo which I won't post here but which you can easily find. Personally, I think more people need to see that kind of stuff. See the reality of what these animals are capable of.


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 18, 2015)

Rest In Peace Diesel.....open fields brother


----------



## The Accountant (Nov 18, 2015)

So another debate that gets fuel from the attack in Paris is that of the "The Militarization of Police"


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 18, 2015)

Bah.  You guys are overreacting.  These guys were just looking for hugs when they "found" these:

Terrorists Once Used Refugee Program to Settle in US


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 18, 2015)

I can say I've picked up enough body parts and seen enough carnage to last me a life time. The guys who stormed that concerts hall, will be dealing with some stuff that is long lasting.

The amount of bullshit everyone deals with due to the incidents, is reason enough to say fuck these people. Kill'em off...period.


----------



## poison (Nov 18, 2015)

I used to own this watch:

St. Dupont "Service Without Fail" RAID Watch | aBlogtoWatch

I kinda regret flipping it now.


----------



## Frank S. (Nov 19, 2015)

Kraut783 said:


> Rest In Peace Diesel.....open fields brother



Sister.
She was first in and the woman wearing the vest detonated. I'm really thinking back to Marignanes 1994, another shit show.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Nov 19, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I can say I've picked up enough body parts and seen enough carnage to last me a life time. The guys who stormed that concerts hall, will be dealing with some stuff that is long lasting.
> 
> The amount of bullshit everyone deals with due to the incidents, is reason enough to say fuck these people. Kill'em off...period.



PTSD is not a "military only", or "combat only" event. There are plenty of people who live with PTSD thanks to some selfserving bastards who make cruelity to others, their goal in life. To "Kill'em of" is a good first step.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 19, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> PTSD is not a "military only", or "combat only" event. There are plenty of people who live with PTSD thanks to some selfserving bastards who make cruelity to others, their goal in life. To "Kill'em of" is a good first step.



I can't agree more. My brother is a firefighter with San Antonio Fire Department. I've seen some pretty drastic changes in him, and he didn't grow up sheltered by any means. Everyone deals with things differently, but one thing that tends to be common, is trying to rationalize good people being brutally killed for senseless acts.


----------



## poison (Nov 19, 2015)

Paris Massacre Mastermind Bragged About Infiltrating Europe in February Interview

Allah didn't blind the French sniper. Lesson: French sniper > allah.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 19, 2015)

An interview with the French commando who led the assault - tough to read, he makes a point of saying he is having a difficult time sleeping after what he witnessed in the theater.

French commando leader describes 'Hell on earth' inside the Bataclan


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 20, 2015)

For all the "religion of peace" defenders.


----------



## AWP (Nov 20, 2015)

An interesting interview with the rector of the Paris Grand Mosque.

Paris Grand Mosque chairman backs fight against ISIS - CNN.com



> "America doesn't want to, can't send men after Iraq, after Afghanistan — no longer wants to send men to Syria," Dalil Boubakeur said in French. "And yet it is necessary, only soldiers taking back territory is the way to push them back."
> 
> "You're saying," Amanpour responded, "that you have to send armies to occupy the land that they hold?"
> 
> "It is necessary, it is necessary. It is absolutely necessary.



All right, I'm onboard.



> "Where are the massive marches," Amanpour asked, "by the Muslim community around the world? Just get out there and tell these Muslims, these radicals, these extremists, the people you're talking about, 'No!'"
> 
> "It is the true question," he said in English.



For all of her liberal bent, she poses a question I've asked repeatedly. Where's the community, where are the masses of Muslims crying out against the extreme minority?



> "But each time I talk here in the Grand Mosque of Paris they say to me, 'Sir you do not represent the Muslims, the young who think differently.' And I say yes, because I don't think like them. The people who think like me are discreet, people don't listen to us, and apart from you," he told Amanpour, "the media don't pay us any attention."
> 
> The media, he added, only put their microphones in front of frothing radicals.



On one hand, I get it. The vermin need something to sell, I understand. The problem is after 14 years of this mess we only see little one off interviews like this. This issue is vitally important to the 1.whatever billion Muslims on the planet and yet they are stymied at every turn by the press? Seriously?

It is a good article, but stops short of offering any real insight or to show leadership.


----------



## Rapid (Nov 20, 2015)

Andrew Neil's message to those who attacked Paris - BBC News

*Andrew Neil's message to those who attacked Paris*

*Edit: YouTube*

*



*


----------



## Brill (Nov 20, 2015)

Agree with @Freefalling , why don't the Muslim men of Iraq fight back? Is it because they WANT the IS to succeed?

Has Obama & the West backed the wrong horse? Should we team with Iran & the Soviets on this one?


----------



## policemedic (Nov 20, 2015)

lindy said:


> Agree with @Freefalling , why don't the Muslim men of Iraq fight back? Is it because they WANT the IS to succeed?
> 
> Has Obama & the West backed the wrong horse? Should we team with Iran & the Soviets on this one?



If the behavior of the IA troops is any indication they're either cowards, lack conviction, or both.


----------



## Brill (Nov 20, 2015)

LMAO,

Jesse Watters Leaves Juan Williams Speechless After Takedown of President Obama


----------



## Brill (Nov 21, 2015)

Never let a good crisis go to waste. Stay classy Sen Reid!

Democrats renew call to bar terror-list suspects from buying guns amid Paris attack worries


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 21, 2015)

lindy said:


> Never let a good crisis go to waste. Stay classy Sen Reid!
> 
> Democrats renew call to bar terror-list suspects from buying guns amid Paris attack worries


Which means the government can put anyone on a secret terror list, and stop you from owning weapons.

You can't get off the list because it's a secret (who put you on it) and the Government would be harmed by telling you why you are on the list.

Where are all the Liberals, Libertarians, and other "freedom fighters"


----------



## amlove21 (Nov 21, 2015)

I went through and multi-quoted everyone that this applies to here, but it was interminably long and convoluted.

ISIS (or ISIL or Daesh or whatever the buzzword you prefer) wants an ideological war pitting east against west, Islam (or whatever version they are pumping) vs. all.

Is it worth our collective time and effort to muddy ourselves on their playing field? Why make comments like, "Oh, here's Islam again, that religion of peace!!!" and validate their ideology by resorting to the the equivalent of systemic ad hominem ad nauseam?

Sun Tzu said, "_When strong, avoid them. If of high morale, depress them. Seem humble to fill them with conceit. If at ease, exhaust them. If united, separate them. Attack their weaknesses. Emerge to their surprise." _Quick update here- we are getting smoked on this one, and no one has an actual end state that's plausible. Aren't the people screaming about how terrible Islam is and how all Muslims are inherently bad playing in to this and actually helping ISIS? Aren't they creating a false dichotomy and only helping further ISIS' rhetoric while simultaneously weakening their own position?

It seems to me that our time would be better spent on actually attacking the ISIS networks, infrastructure, and leadership as opposed to the Sisyphian task of discrediting the ideology. Does the ideology actually matter to finding, fixing, and finishing an adversary?

Here is a video talking about this topic. I don't necessarily agree with the "more love" angle.

Example- I would argue that recruitment is issue #1 in order to actually affect insurgent groups (with finance a very close #2). So, if we stopped with all this horseshit about "we need to eradicate their religion cause they're savages and our religion is great" and start packaging it as, "the coalition of the civilized world will not tolerate killing, and we will respond in kind. Not for ideology, but because _killing people is wrong"_, wouldn't that severely damage ISIS' ability to recruit? Isn't our posture of "our morals against yours, our way of life against yours" actually _helping them _drum up support?

In order to not derail this thread to some sort of theological debate, I am not saying the world would be better with no religion. I am not saying anyone is wrong or right. I am saying that general public opinion, guided by our politicians and echoed by some people here, is not the best way to approach this problem.


----------



## x SF med (Nov 21, 2015)

short answer.... the same people have been waging the same war for 1400 years...  they conquered Spain, Turkey, Iraq(Persia) Mediterranean Africa, and North Africa, Sicily, Sardinia, Southern Italy, and Southern France...   The West retaliated by waging a small series of Crusades...  that were but a pinprick to the Islamic massacre and enslavement.

Hundreds of battles waged by Islam, millions enslaved, and killed....  the Crusades were what, 15ish sorties in a very targeted area...

Why are the Crusades so bad and the Islamic wars of conquest never mentioned?  why is retaliation in a 1400 year war such a scandal, why is the millennia and a half Islamic expansion forgotten?


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 21, 2015)

I think we should actually address this for exactly what it is, Islam (submit) being forced upon everyone, regardless of beliefs or lack thereof. These people claim to be waging a holy war in the name of Islam and their prophet Muhammad. I can only assume by their collective action, that is exactly what they are doing and what they mean. 

I personally don't care to pretend anymore that this is not a religious war being waged against us by a barbaric people. More to the point, I think everyone needs to wake up to that fact and have the discussion on how we are actually going to deal with these people.


----------



## Blizzard (Nov 21, 2015)

Kraut783 said:


> Rest In Peace Diesel.....open fields brother


 
In response:
Russia gives France puppy to replace killed police dog

Really, Russia goes with a puppy?!  It was said by someone here earlier, either in this thread or another, that Russia is kicking our ass in the PR department.  This is yet another example.  A puppy.  Who doesn't love a puppy?!


----------



## amlove21 (Nov 21, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I think we should actually address this for exactly what it is, Islam (submit) being forced upon everyone, regardless of beliefs or lack thereof. These people claim to be waging a holy war in the name of Islam and their prophet Muhammad. I can only assume by their collective action, that is exactly what they are doing and what they mean.
> 
> I personally don't care to pretend anymore that this is not a religious war being waged against us by a barbaric people. More to the point, I think everyone needs to wake up to that fact and have the discussion on how we are actually going to deal with these people.


No issue with you saying it, cause that's the deal- but I disagree and think you're part of the problem. And with your experience, it's a little surprising you have this level of answer to such a complex problem. 

So how would you deal with "these people"? Also, could you clarify who you mean when you say "these people"? Muslims? Islamists? Terrorists? Extremists? It'll be helpful.


----------



## JBS (Nov 21, 2015)

I liked what you had to say, but I don't agree with you on one set of points: the issue of basically calling so-called mainstream Muslims on the carpet for staying on the fence.  In other words, when thousands of Turks decided to "boo" the vicitms of the Paris attacks, that's a  great place for the civilized world to apply pressure on the mainstream Muslims and demand an explanation for that.  If you are "with" the civilized world and against the barbarity, time to start coming out en masse and let it be known.  Police your own.  Distance yourself from the so-called radicals, don't provide moral support at worst, or abiguity about your collective position at best.





amlove21 said:


> I went through and multi-quoted everyone that this applies to here, but it was interminably long and convoluted.
> 
> ISIS (or ISIL or Daesh or whatever the buzzword you prefer) wants an ideological war pitting east against west, Islam (or whatever version they are pumping) vs. all.
> 
> ...


----------



## amlove21 (Nov 21, 2015)

x SF med said:


> short answer.... the same people have been waging the same war for 1400 years...  they conquered Spain, Turkey, Iraq(Persia) Mediterranean Africa, and North Africa, Sicily, Sardinia, Southern Italy, and Southern France...   The West retaliated by waging a small series of Crusades...  that were but a pinprick to the Islamic massacre and enslavement.
> 
> Hundreds of battles waged by Islam, millions enslaved, and killed....  the Crusades were what, 15ish sorties in a very targeted area...
> 
> Why are the Crusades so bad and the Islamic wars of conquest never mentioned?  why is retaliation in a 1400 year war such a scandal, why is the millennia and a half Islamic expansion forgotten?


I guess it's more escaping moral relativism than anything else. The Crusades death toll was 1 million- 3 million depending on who you quote. IMO, radicalism/extremism is not a great thing if it kills a single person in self-justified violence. 

Also, I don't think the crusades are a valid example here. I am not a Crusader. I won't fight in retaliation for closely held ideological beliefs- remember, the first crusade was a purely ideologically driven Papally mandated conquest of Jerusalem. 

That sort of thing is what I am 100% against. Stop making it about religion, you solve a lot of your problems right off the bat.


----------



## AWP (Nov 21, 2015)

If the mainstream or moderates want their religion viewed in a better light they need to step up. If they don't rise en masse and help themselves then how does that look to us "outsiders?" They have to be a part of the solution unless we're willing to eternal war.



amlove21 said:


> I guess it's more escaping moral relativism than anything else. The Crusades death toll was 1 million- 3 million depending on who you quote. IMO, radicalism/extremism is not a great thing if it kills a single person in self-justified violence



History is great for perspective but lousy for justification.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 21, 2015)

@amlove21, "these people" would be radical Muslims who associate with known terror groups, such as ISIS, Al-Qaida, and the like. How I would deal with them, is I would take all restrictions off the ROE, and I would hunt them down and kill them. I'm not saying do what we did in Iraq & Afghanistan, I'm talking literally go on the hunt and kill them, wherever they may be, here CONUS, or OCONUS. Find, fix, destroy.

The PC bullshit hasn't worked, the nation building hasn't worked, the COIN stuff hasn't worked, the low level CT stuff hasn't worked, the leave them alone and not get involved stuff isn't working.

My comments are truly based in the reasoning of everything we have done hasn't worked, and this is the first time since 9/11, that I am truly in fear for my family and friends. As in, large venues are off the list of things to do. I unfortunately see large scale attacks the likes of Paris happening all over our country, in the next year. I think as a nation we really need to have a no bullshit talk about this, without the PC crap and figure out if we want to allow our people to die b/c we want to not hurt feelings, or do we want to protect this country.

Finally, the sole purpose of a national centralized government, is to ensure the common defense of our nation. Above all, this is supposed to be #1 and our current government is playing games with that. I am not okay with it, I'm angry about it, and if that makes me "part of the problem" then I'm at a total loss of words, b/c every American with a half ass mind, should be pissed off right now.


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## Frank S. (Nov 21, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> Russia gives France puppy to replace killed police dog A puppy.  Who doesn't love a puppy?!



Me.

I want that dog to go through the proper vetting process.


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## amlove21 (Nov 21, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> @amlove21, *How I would deal with them, is I would take all restrictions off the ROE, and I would hunt them down and kill them. I'm not saying do what we did in Iraq & Afghanistan, I'm talking literally go on the hunt and kill them, wherever they may be, here CONUS, or OCONUS. Find, fix, destroy.*
> 
> *My comments are truly based in the reasoning of everything we have done hasn't worked, and this is the first time since 9/11, that I am truly in fear for my family and friends. As in, large venues are off the list of things to do. I unfortunately see large scale attacks the likes of Paris happening all over our country, in the next year.*
> 
> *Finally, the sole purpose of a national centralized government, is to ensure the common defense of our nation. Above all, this is supposed to be #1 and our current government is playing games with that. I am not okay with it, I'm angry about it, and if that makes me "part of the problem" then I'm at a total loss of words, b/c every American with a half ass mind, should be pissed off right now.*


To the bolded, snipped for content-

So what you're saying we need is an international force (comprised of whom?), that has zero restrictions in locating and killing whoever it is they say (with oversight from whom?) regardless of known international law, sovereign territory, or diplomatic clearance? This does not sound in any way logical or feasible. Is what I described what you meant?

I would ask what qualifies you to predict not just one but "large scale attacks all over the country". Is this just a guess? Do you really alter your daily life so much every time international incidents occur? 

Which examples do you have of the current gov't "playing games" with your national security? Do you have any examples of the current gov't allowing an attack that would warrant your above behavior? I am not pissed off- there is work to be done, and I think getting emotional over personal beliefs while taking on serious work is a mistake. Does that make me only of a half ass mind?

I don't like the common perception of PC either- but the sad truth is that the people who stomp on about "THINGS ARE TOO PC EVERYONE GETS TOO OFFENDED111ONE1!!" don't actually want the reality they cry about. They want special privilege. And they ruin it for everyone.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 21, 2015)

amlove21 said:


> To the bolded, snipped for content-
> 
> So what you're saying we need is an international force (comprised of whom?), that has zero restrictions in locating and killing whoever it is they say (with oversight from whom?) regardless of known international law, sovereign territory, or diplomatic clearance? This does not sound in any way logical or feasible. Is what I described what you meant?
> 
> ...



I'll respond in the morning. In short, I was not calling you half minded and I fully understand your position/questions. I will clarify in the morning.


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## Brill (Nov 22, 2015)

amlove21 said:


> Quick update here- we are getting smoked on this one, and *no one has an actual end state that's plausible*.
> It seems to me that our time would be better spent on actually attacking the ISIS networks, infrastructure, and leadership as opposed to the Sisyphian task of discrediting the ideology. *Does the ideology actually matter to finding, fixing, and finishing an adversary?*



The stated objective is "Disrupt, degrade, and ULTIMATELY destroy the Islamic State." <-- what does that even mean?  How does a subordinate commander fit that into an OPORD?  Go out and do X.  Ultimately you will receive support.  Abu?

To the people executing the objective, no, ideology DOES NOT matter but the higher ups, it most DEFINITELY does matter.  I think this is why "leaks" (a misnomer because this implies that it is NOT sponsored...I'm confident that they are absolutely supported by the White House) are so prevalent in this administration.

Over 8300 airstrikes against IS and what has been the result?  They're able to still draw recruits, able to still fight ANF, Assad, and Gov of Iraq, and able to export their salifasism (IS is expanding all over the world so perhaps POTUS meant they were contained within the Middle East, Africa, and Southwest Asia).

It's tough to say that this isn't a war about religion when salifasts make targeting decisions based on ones ability to recite the Qur'an (happened in Mali and Levant).  Embrace the jihad/crusade...and understand how to operate effectively in its battlespace.

@amlove21, why do you fight, if you're not fighting for ideological beliefs about freedom, liberty, etc?

Edit: UK even calls out the US-led coalition's "strategy". 
House of Commons - The extension of offensive British military operations to Syria - Foreign Affairs Committee


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 22, 2015)

amlove21 said:


> To the bolded, snipped for content-
> 
> So what you're saying we need is an international force (comprised of whom?), that has zero restrictions in locating and killing whoever it is they say (with oversight from whom?) regardless of known international law, sovereign territory, or diplomatic clearance? This does not sound in any way logical or feasible. Is what I described what you meant?
> 
> ...



Yes, a multinational force, that is 100% cleared hot. Develop the intelligence, and give the host nation an option, either you do it or we will. If a host nation is allowing terrorist group a safe haven, take out the HN government. In a basic understanding, doing exactly what we did during the Bush years, but take the gloves off.

Besides being specifically trained in the response to exactly what happens in Paris, I also hold instructor level certification to teach LEO's on how to respond to what happen in Paris. The intelligence community was telling the LE community that these attacks will happen in CONUS as early as 03-04. Specifically, lone wolf, small cell's, using small arms to just kill at random, as many as possible. This was not just focused on large cities, this was specifically outlined to hit anywhere and everywhere. I'm not sure if you remember some of the old training camp videos of Al-Qaida in Afghanistan? They specifically showed high level training for specifically doing what happens in Paris. Back then the analysts was these camps were not training jihadist, but more specifically conducting"train the trainer" style training.  Outside of knowing that stuff, ISIS has stated that is exactly what they are going to do here. I believe that they intend to do so. Furthermore, with our own department heads stating that they cannot vett refugees who are coming here from ISIS held areas, with ISIS stating they plan to exploit this, and with the Obama administration pushing for it. It's not hard to put two and two together.

Yes I absolutely change habits and adjust common practices, when I fear for my family. I don't know where you live, but the city I live in currently, is on a supposed "Hit list". Not only that, my state has the largest border with Mexico, and guess what, we've been catching Syrian "refugees" on the border. So yes, I'm very nervous, and yes that makes me upset.

Plenty of examples of this administration playing political games with our security. The big one being this refugee issue.

The political correctness is every where dude, and its freaking horrible. It's on this forum, it's engrained into a lot of peoples thinking. For example; if i state we should kill these people off, the response is what people, do you mean all Muslims, do you want genocide, you are part of the problem. In realty, I don't think anyone would disagree that we need to kill off ISIS and the like. But the PC thinking turns it into some kind of side show debate instead of actual debate of how we deal with the current problem.

But anyway, to clarify my original post, I was not trying to have a tit-for-tat on any of it. I personally believe you are wrong that by understanding that this is a religious war on their side, is in some way helping them. I think what is helping them, is people denying that it is religious based, reading their history, and finding out exactly where this ideology comes from. Why we have been dealing with for 1400 years, what the end game is. I think the sheep being blind to what's actually going on, and being lead by talking heads in the media, who don't even fact check their information and our government straight up bold face lying to everyone, is what helps group like ISIS. I think they are able to recruit b/c the beacon of hope and promise of a better life in the USA and other western nation's is dying and in many cases turning out to be completely false.

So no, I don't think people are hacking more heads off because I state they are religious based barbaric people who should be wiped of the earth. I think they hack more heads off because they are in fact religious based barbaric people who did not assimilate to the modern world.

Hope this offers some clarity on my position.


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## RackMaster (Nov 22, 2015)

Frank S. said:


> Me.
> 
> I want that dog to go through the proper vetting process.



They better X-ray the poor dog for listening devices.


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## AWP (Nov 22, 2015)

We cannot defeat an ideology. Communism, an economic ideology, has been around for less than 200 years. It has failed at every level by every nation and yet people still defend it, explain it away, and implement it! People actually believe this economic nonsense is a reality "if only"...if only a frog had wings he wouldn't bump his ass when hopping. The ideology we're up against is 1400 years old, a religion (religion is arguably the strongest ideology EVER), and practiced by over a billion people. This ideology underpins our opponents and supporters alike so generically waging a war against the ideology isn't going to work and will ultimately backfire.

We need a lot of things to have peace. We aren't going to kill off ISIS and then see peace break out like smallpox. Another group of crazies using the same ideology as their foundation will rise up. We could well play whack-a-mole for generations and that's guaranteed without support from more moderate Muslim countries and organizations.

I would honestly love something as simple as "kill Group X for the win." That would be so easy and refreshing, but is unrealistic in this case. Make no mistake we ARE fighting a religious war. The other side can talk about religion and we can view it as a political goal or land grab cloaked in religion, but it is still a religious war.  Our opponents will use religion to justify their ways, recruit new followers, and build some distance between themselves and their opponents. Using religion allows them to "sell" their madness to other countries even if they despise ISIS because ISIS can count on one thing: Muslims will not want to sell out fellow Muslims to the non-believers. Religion absolutely is a cause here but if we make it about religion we'll lose because we're outsiders. The rest of the Muslim world need to be overt and vocal in supporting us against the crazies or else we can forget about peace.

ISIS is operating from a position of relative strength. Think of the mob at home or inner city areas where drugs and crime are rampant. Unless the locals buy in to a solution and fight their neighbors (snitch) how effective is local law enforcement? It isn't be a quick fight or campaign to clear up a neighborhood but we think we can run through a country or region? ISIS is in a great place. If we make it about religion we lose the support of that community but if we ignore the religious angle then we aren't addressing the core problem. This isn't being PC, this is political and strategic pragmatism. If you have an invasive species in a river you can't dry up the river and kill that fish or prawn or whatever. If you introduce another predator that brings consequences. Your fight goes from what you want to do, the easy solution (kill everything) to what's practical. We need to be practical, we need to understand the basis for the conflict, but we need to work with those within that religion for a solution. The West cannot do this without local/ religious support.

I believe we're talking about a fight for our survival albeit one which will take generations to play out. We won't implode in a decade over this, but it can be an issue which wears us down. We must address this threat but we need a long game, not a short term ADD-esque foreign policy. Our real threat or weakness here is time, not political correctness. No politician wants to admit this is a generational fight so we'll use a Band-Aid. The PC stuff is very secondary to the public's desire for a solution RIGHT NOW, but harping on PC is low-hanging fruit and emotionally comfortable instead of admitting a greater problem:

We lack the stomach or national will for this fight and we almost NEED attacks on US soil to keep us in focus. That frightens me more than anything, our unwillingness to see this through without incurring more, and necessary, casualties. We lack a spine and no one will pay attention unless more of us are dying.


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## CDG (Nov 22, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> We lack the stomach or national will for this fight and we almost NEED attacks on US soil to keep us in focus. That frightens me more than anything, our unwillingness to see this through without incurring more, and necessary, casualties. We lack a spine and no one will pay attention unless more of us are dying.



This is terrifyingly true.  What percentage of the population do you think still gives any conscious thought to the Paris attacks?  "Come on bro, it's football season, basketball just started, and Starbucks has eggnog lattes again!!!  Paris?  Yeah, tragic. Anyways, you guys hear about Charlie Sheen?  What's Kanye up to these days?"


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## AWP (Nov 22, 2015)

CDG said:


> This is terrifyingly true.  What percentage of the population do you think still gives any conscious thought to the Paris attacks?



My pessimistic opinion is "a very low percentage. "If you keep it in the press everyday, front page "in your face"s tuff we'll see diminishing returns on awareness and knowledge. My dad's retired and even when working 50+ hours a week stayed on top of domestic and to a lesser extent foreign affairs. Now that he's retired he can spend all day (and almost does) watching the news. He's flat admitted the last two presidential races saw him turn off the TV or place it on a sports channel...and he hates baseball and basketball. He would put his TV on anything but news and avoided online sites like the plague unless it was do a crossword puzzle or something. I cannot think he's alone.

The solution? I don't have one. Human nature is to tune this out after a certain point which means those folks will not re-engage without another reason. I think Vietnam changed society in a number of ways, but one is that we can't stomach a long fight. We want wars measured in days if not hours and I'd bet if WWII happened today AND we made it to 1944, we'd negotiate away portions of China, the whole of Korea, Taiwan, and a number of Pacific islands minus the Philippines. We would not have the stomach to use nukes OR invade. We'd give the Japanese (and Germans) territorial concessions to end the war.


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## amlove21 (Nov 22, 2015)

lindy said:


> *Over 8300 airstrikes against IS and what has been the result?  They're able to still draw recruits, able to still fight ANF, Assad, and Gov of Iraq, and able to export their salifasism (IS is expanding all over the world so perhaps POTUS meant they were contained within the Middle East, Africa, and Southwest Asia).*
> 
> It's tough to say that this isn't a war about religion when salifasts make targeting decisions based on ones ability to recite the Qur'an (happened in Mali and Levant).  Embrace the jihad/crusade...and understand how to operate effectively in its battlespace.
> 
> @amlove21, why do you fight, if you're not fighting for ideological beliefs about freedom, liberty, etc?


To the bolded- exactly. What we are doing is _not working. _So maybe stop doing that? We have to hit them where they actually feel it- recruiting, finance, public support.

I think you're missing my point- in no way am I calling this anything other than what it is. ISIS, an international terror group is using Islam to support their reasoning for international terrorism. ISIS is a threat to the world as a whole, and needs to be stopped. 

I think we start to lose this game when we "rally all the christians for support in this holy war" or "I know we are a 'civilized' society now, but these savages have to be bombed into antiquity!". We have enough reasons to be pissed off and go get our drone strike on. We don't need to pile on the religious rhetoric. It only plays agains our strategy, not for it. 

I understand why you'd ask "well what do you fight for if not ideological beliefs about freedom etc.", in order to not derail the thread I'll PM


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## Brill (Nov 22, 2015)

amlove21 said:


> To the bolded- exactly. What we are doing is _not working. _So maybe stop doing that? We have to hit them where they actually feel it- recruiting, finance, public support.
> 
> I think you're missing my point- in no way am I calling this anything other than what it is. ISIS, an international terror group is using Islam to support their reasoning for international terrorism. ISIS is a threat to the world as a whole, and needs to be stopped.
> 
> I think we start to lose this game when we "rally all the christians for support in this holy war" or "I know we are a 'civilized' society now, but these savages have to be bombed into antiquity!". We have enough reasons to be pissed off and go get our drone strike on. *We don't need to pile on the religious rhetoric. It only plays against our strategy, not for it. *



Fully agree with you until the religious part.  When we OPENLY back a Shia-Iraq government and support Iran and Azerbaijan, we're siding with Shia.  Add that we OPENLY support Sunni governments that are anti-IS, we get lumped into the heretics and apostates that the IS wants to overthrow/destroy.

What is not understood in Western press is that we can dodge the religious overtones of this war but THAT plays directly into the hands of leaders and financial backers of IS.  To our enemy, is absolutely is 100% a Sunni vs the kufar and munafiqun.  It is no wonder that right after IS volunteers finish with the admin crap that every country's inductees/volunteers go through, they go right to sharia training.

The only thing that will stop this is overextending supply lines, attrition of fighters, and Muslim civil war...basically a rehash of the 750AD expansion.  Unfortunately air travel has negated the natural barrier of the Atlantic Ocean.


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## Gunz (Nov 22, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> ...I think Vietnam changed society in a number of ways, but one is that we can't stomach a long fight. We want wars measured in days if not hours and I'd bet if WWII happened today AND we made it to 1944, we'd negotiate away portions of China, the whole of Korea, Taiwan, and a number of Pacific islands minus the Philippines. We would not have the stomach to use nukes OR invade. We'd give the Japanese (and Germans) territorial concessions to end the war...


 

Yes, we've lost our tolerance for high casualties. 5000 Marines died in the course of 29 days on Iwo Jima. Imagine if we'd lost that many in that span of time in Iraq or Afghanistan. During my war, 200 Americans, on average, were dying every week. Even those "moderate" losses (compared to WW2) would be considered horrific now.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 22, 2015)

I agree with most that the general population doesn't have the stomach for war (a real war) but having it or not, when people start dying at their Starbucks while drinking their eggnog, the attitude and direction can be changed. I'm hoping some sound minded individuals step out and use their leadership to push that direction on eradicating these Islamic extremists assholes. World would be a much better place without them.


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## nobodythank you (Nov 22, 2015)

On the Topic of ISIS, I came across this article that many of you may find interesting. It is worth a read and focuses on their propaganda machine known as Dabiq magazine. Some may not care for the source, but the article was well written. Enjoy.

*7 Things I Learned Reading Every Issue Of ISIS's Magazine*



> A lot of it's what you'd expect, like scripture-dense articles quoting the angriest verses of various holy books to make an insane point....
> 
> 
> But it also features fawning People Magazine-like spreads of "celebrities," a word which, for the Islamic State, means dead suicide bombers and insurgents.


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## amlove21 (Nov 22, 2015)

lindy said:


> Fully agree with you until the religious part.  When we OPENLY back a Shia-Iraq government and support Iran and Azerbaijan, we're siding with Shia.  Add that we OPENLY support Sunni governments that are anti-IS, we get lumped into the heretics and apostates that the IS wants to overthrow/destroy.
> 
> What is not understood in Western press is that we can dodge the religious overtones of this war but THAT plays directly into the hands of leaders and financial backers of IS.  To our enemy, is absolutely is 100% a Sunni vs the kufar and munafiqun.  *It is no wonder that right after IS volunteers finish with the admin crap that every country's inductees/volunteers go through, they go right to sharia training.*
> 
> The only thing that will stop this is overextending supply lines, attrition of fighters, and Muslim civil war...basically a rehash of the 750AD expansion.  Unfortunately air travel has negated the natural barrier of the Atlantic Ocean.


No, we get lumped into heretics and apostate status because we don't follow the religion. No matter who we backed, we would still be viewed as heretics and apostates. We could put al Baghdadi out there and back him- wouldn't matter to the rank and file. Do you see this differently? 

As for the rest of your comment, I am not following. I have said it 4 times or so now- I don't want to dodge the religious overtones of this conflict, because that's what it is, at least as ISIS views it. I want that directly addressed and then dismissed in order to gain public favor and hurt their recruiting and ability to use rhetoric to gain support, both financially and with personnel.  

How would the coalition "play directly into the hands of the leaders and financial backers of IS" if our posture was, "Yes, they are religiously motivated. We aren't. This is not a case of East vs West, Islam vs the World. We understand their tactics and ideology, and how they use those things in concert to carry out their operations, but we don't act that way. We are here to stop their spread." 

As for the bolded- while it may be true- I don't see how that matters at all. They're indoctrinated after they inprocess... ok? I tend to do the same thing with my new guys. I think we all do.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 22, 2015)

amlove21 said:


> No, we get lumped into heretics and apostate status because we don't follow the religion. No matter who we backed, we would still be viewed as heretics and apostates. We could put al Baghdadi out there and back him- wouldn't matter to the rank and file. Do you see this differently?
> 
> As for the rest of your comment, I am not following. I have said it 4 times or so now- I don't want to dodge the religious overtones of this conflict, because that's what it is, at least as ISIS views it. I want that directly addressed and then dismissed in order to gain public favor and hurt their recruiting and ability to use rhetoric to gain support, both financially and with personnel.
> 
> ...



I might have misunderstood your previous post, and do agree with what you said here.


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## amlove21 (Nov 22, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I might have misunderstood your previous post, and do agree with what you said here.


I probably did a bad job of explaining it clearly, I'd wager. No worries.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 22, 2015)

amlove21 said:


> I probably did a bad job of explaining it clearly, I'd wager. No worries.



lol, my reading comprehension has always been a bit off.


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## Kraut783 (Nov 22, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> In response:
> Russia gives France puppy to replace killed police dog
> 
> Really, Russia goes with a puppy?!  It was said by someone here earlier, either in this thread or another, that Russia is kicking our ass in the PR department.  This is yet another example.  A puppy.  Who doesn't love a puppy?!



That's a really nice gesture....K9 handlers will understand, /salute Russia


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## Salt USMC (Nov 23, 2015)

Hoax: ISIS Buys Stolen UPS Uniforms on Ebay - Fiction!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 23, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Hoax: ISIS Buys Stolen UPS Uniforms on Ebay - Fiction!


From your link: "Talladega Sheriff Jimmy Kilgore apologized for sharing the false warning"

What a fucking asshole...


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## SpitfireV (Nov 23, 2015)

Just reading the language you can tell it's a hoax anyway.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 23, 2015)

Umm...I think ABC News may want to consider a different photo when trying to show how armed and ready we are for the bad guys!


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## Trev (Nov 23, 2015)

Once again it would seem IS's best ally is not Boko Haram, AQIM, Hezbollah, Hamas, or any other Jihadi terror group. It is our own politicians. http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/troops-clearing-space-at-cfb-kingston-for-syrian-refugees-1.2670111 They are putting these people on military bases knowing full well there are terrorists in with the refugees. Great plan Mr.Trudeau do you plan on giving them the keys to the parliment buildings as well? Perhaps we could put up some tents for them in the CSIS HQ. Fuck it might as well hand the whole country over to ISIS since we are allowing them to live on military bases.


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## AWP (Nov 24, 2015)

JBS said:


> If it's not discussed here in this thread, *it would be great in its own thread*.



I've wondered the same thing eve as I helped with the "takeover." As soon as I can figure out what to move I'll do just that.


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## Rapid (Dec 15, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Bataclan: un commissaire et son chauffeur, premiers sur les lieux, ont abattu un jihadiste
> 
> Quick translation:
> 
> ...



Update on this. Interview with the officer in question.

Paris attacks: First policeman into Bataclan speaks of horror - BBC News

The first police officer to arrive at the Bataclan has described the "indescribable moment of fear" he felt on entering the scene of the massacre. The policeman, a department head at the Paris anti-crime brigade (BAC), told FranceInfo radio (in French) that he and his colleague had been responding to reports of an explosion at the Stade de France when they were redirected. They were ordered to go to the 10th and 11th arrondissements of Paris following news of shootings. On the way, they found panicked concert-goers fleeing the Bataclan and quickly decided to go inside.

"What surprised us immediately was the extremely bright light that blinded us," said the officer, whose identity has been protected for security reasons.

"The bewildering silence... and then hundreds of bodies one on top of the other."

Soon after entering the music venue, the police duo saw a gunmen walk on stage and point a Kalashnikov at an audience member.

"He was very calm," the officer said.

"Given the carnage, there was no doubt about what we had to do. We opened fire straight away. We kept shooting until he fell to the floor."

The gunman was later identified as Foued Mohamed-Aggad, a 23-year-old French national from Strasbourg.

*'I phoned my girlfriend'*

The two officers, who reportedly only had service weapons and light bulletproof vests, then heard an explosion from elsewhere in the building and realised there were likely to be more attackers. Faced with extreme danger, the men phoned their loved-ones.

"We decided we could not leave the scene - we could not leave these people," the officer said.

"I was ready to die with my team that night. I phoned my girlfriend to say goodbye."

Elite police units soon arrived at the scene. Two other attackers who took people hostage in the concert hall eventually died in a final police assault hours later.

They were later identified as Frenchmen Omar Ismail Mostefai, 29, and Samy Amimour, 28


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## pardus (Dec 17, 2015)

Bad ass.


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