# Why We Should Pull Out of Iraq



## Kurt V (Jun 20, 2007)

I know this is not the popular view, but I believe we need to get the hell out of Iraq. Here is my reasoning. Hopefully this will generate some healthy debate.

The people of Iraq are not ready for a democracy. We can't force a democracy on them. Until they are ready to fight for their right to be free a democratic government will not form and last. Are we doing good things for the people of Iraq? Yes, but no matter how much good we do, the minute we leave the country the religious factions will conduct a civil war with winner takes all. This is not a bad thing. The best thing for the U.S. is a stable Iraq, regardless of who is running the country. 

Just because we pull out does not mean we have turned our backs on the good men and women that have fought and died in Iraq. Honor them. But there is no reason we need to keep feeding our military to the grist mill that is Iraq. 

I have more thoughts, but first I will see if anyone is even interested in this point of view.


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## AWP (Jun 20, 2007)

Good thread, please continue.

For those that want to participate, let's keep this civil.


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## Ravage (Jun 20, 2007)

I'm no militar, never been to Iraq, was never involved in combat.
But I think that the job ain't done yet. We will leave when the job get's done.
But my opinion means shit and lets leave it at that.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jun 20, 2007)

Kurt V said:


> I know this is not the popular view, but I believe we need to get the hell out of Iraq. Here is my reasoning. Hopefully this will generate some healthy debate.
> 
> The people of Iraq are not ready for a democracy. We can't force a democracy on them. Until they are ready to fight for their right to be free a democratic government will not form and last. Are we doing good things for the people of Iraq? Yes, but no matter how much good we do, the minute we leave the country the religious factions will conduct a civil war with winner takes all. This is not a bad thing. The best thing for the U.S. is a stable Iraq, regardless of who is running the country.
> 
> ...


 
I disagree. I see it more of a national security issue than anything. I don't think we need another Mogadishu in this world. I also don't want to see Iraq turn into another Palestine, where a terrorist organization pretty much runs the show. I don't believe Iraq is a lost cause, but I do think Americans have always had a weak stomach for war. We haven't had the long term spirit of nationalism since the war of 1812. Personally, I want the job to get done, and I have no doubt that it can.


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## Paddlefoot (Jun 20, 2007)

We're going to be involved in Iraq and the rest of the ME for the forseeable future, but I agree we should stop conducting the main thrust of operations. That country is going to come to terms with itself, in its on way, regardless of a "surge" or any other military strategy put forth.

Hindsight is 20-20, but we should have followed Garner's reccomendations and turned the country over to the next in line, regardless of their baathist affiliations. The original mission called for checking for WMD and ousting Saddam. Both missions were accomplished.

If I take my hindsight back even further, we should have committed in 1991 to what we eventually did in 2003. I hate to say it, but we gave away the store with an ill conceived and watered down cease fire agreement with Iraq. We should have stayed awhile longer, I'd have given up another 20-30 lbs I couldn't really afford, and perhaps something else althogether,  to achieve a more lasting victory and peace.


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## Kurt V (Jun 20, 2007)

Thanks for the civil and educated responses. But what is the "Job" we are trying to get done? I would think number one would be to prevent another terrorist attack in the U.S. 

There is no question the insurgents and other anti-American parties will take over the government once we leave. But that will happen no matter how long we stay. Any government capable of holding power in Iraq will be anti-American, because the Iraqi people are increasingly becoming anti-American. 
Imposing a liberal constitutional order in Iraq would be to accomplish something that has never been done before.  Of all the world's political cultures, an Arab-Muslim one may be the most resistant to such a change of any in the world. Even the Muslim society in Turkey (an anti-Arab society) stands out for being the only example of a constitutional order in an Islamic society, and even it backslides occasionally.

All we have really accomplished is making Iraq a training ground for terrorists. The CIA has pointed out to the administration and congress that Iraq is spawning so many terrorists that they are returning home to many other countries to further practice their skills there. The quicker a new dictator wins the political power in Iraq and imposes order, the sooner the country will stop producing well-experienced terrorists.


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## Paddlefoot (Jun 20, 2007)

Bear in mind, a substantial withdrawl of all or most of our personnel, plus equipment, is going to require a lot of planning and logistical expertise.

I sure don't want to see any mad scrambles leaving the country. Orderly, disciplined and covered by a lot of firepower every step of the way.


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## AWP (Jun 20, 2007)

I see us as between a rock and a hard place: pull out and we look weak, stay and we commit lives and money to a near hopeless cause.

I do not believe that the Iraqi gov't can stand on its own for long without our presence. However, thsat is precisely what is needed in order for us to leave: a stable gov't that can secure its own country. They appear to be a long way from that goal.

We can't pull out but we shouldn't stay, IMO. My take is that we are caught and the only way out is through a stable (or as close as we can get it) Iraq. At least we are killing them there and not here on our own soil. It has become a lightning rod for bad guys and that does make me happy.

In the end I'd vote to stay, but not by much. Iraq needs to pull it together soon though, we cannot continue on this road for much longer.


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## Crusader74 (Jun 20, 2007)

What I can see happening is the rest of the coalition partners pulling out and leaving you guys on yer lonesome..

Can you Guys stay there indefinite?

personally I think You can't change the will of the people(the US or any other Country for that matter) and history has shown us that.

So I think You should Pull out because I can't see the situation getting better any time soon.

The Lebanon is a perfect example.


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## Kurt V (Jun 20, 2007)

Freefalling said:


> I see us as between a rock and a hard place: pull out and we look weak



If we were Russia or some other insecure nation, we might have to worry about credibility. A hyperpower need not worry about credibility. That’s one of the great advantages of being a hyperpower: When we have made a big strategic mistake, we can reverse it. And it may even enhance our credibility. Staying there damages our credibility more than leaving.

The civil war we leave behind may well draw in Syria, Turkey and Iran.  But already today each of those states is deeply involved in support for or opposition to factions in the ongoing Iraqi civil war. The very act of invading Iraq almost insured that violence would involve the larger region. And so it has and will continue, with, or without, US forces in Iraq. The US presence is not preventing Shiite-Sunni conflict; it merely delays it. Iran is preventing it today, and it will probably encourage it once the Shiites dominate the new government, an outcome US policy virtually ensures.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jun 20, 2007)

I think b leaving we would just make more enemies.  I don't see anyone gettinginto office in 2008 that will just up and pull our military out of Iraq.  I do see bench marks in Iraqs future at some point though (which I doubt they will be able to meet). Iraq need a much stronger Army, many more troops, and the Iranian interference needs to be stopped by whatever measures necessary, IMO. We've let that shit go on for far too long.


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## Kurt V (Jun 20, 2007)

Boondocksaint375 said:


> I think b leaving we would just make more enemies.  I don't see anyone gettinginto office in 2008 that will just up and pull our military out of Iraq.  I do see bench marks in Iraqs future at some point though (which I doubt they will be able to meet). Iraq need a much stronger Army, many more troops, and the Iranian interference needs to be stopped by whatever measures necessary, IMO. We've let that shit go on for far too long.



Boon, the only friends we will ever have in the middle east is Israel and the Kurds.

As for the Iranians, Iranian leaders see US policy in Iraq as being so much in Teheran's interests that they have been advising Iraqi Shiite leaders to do exactly what the Americans ask them to do. Elections will allow the Shiites to take power legally. Once in charge, they can settle scores with the Baathists and Sunnis. If US policy in Iraq begins to undercut Iran's interests, then Teheran can use its growing influence among Iraqi Shiites to stir up trouble, possibly committing Shiite militias to an insurgency against US forces there. The US invasion has vastly increased Iran's influence in Iraq, not sealed it out.

The insurgents are fighting very effectively without US or European military advisors to train them. Why don't the soldiers and police in the present Iraqi regime's service do their duty as well?  Because they are uncertain about committing their lives to this regime. They are being asked to take a political stand, just as the insurgents are. Political consolidation, not military-technical consolidation, is the issue. The issue is not military training; it is institutional loyalty. We trained the Vietnamese military effectively. Its generals took power and proved to be lousy politicians and poor fighters in the final showdown.  In many battles over a decade or more, South Vietnamese military units fought very well, defeating VC and NVA units. But South Vietnam's political leaders lost the war.

Even if we were able to successfully train an Iraqi military and police force, the likely result, after all that, would be another military dictatorship. Experience around the world teaches us that military dictatorships arise when the military’s institutional modernization gets ahead of political consolidation.


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## Crusader74 (Jun 20, 2007)

Boondocksaint375 said:


> I think b leaving we would just make more enemies.  I don't see anyone getting into office in 2008 that will just up and pull our military out of Iraq.  I do see bench marks in Iraq's future at some point though (which I doubt they will be able to meet). Iraq need a much stronger Army, many more troops, and the Iranian interference needs to be stopped by whatever measures necessary, IMO. We've let that shit go on for far too long.



So how do you purpose changing it?


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jun 20, 2007)

We have many more friends in the ME than the Israelis and Kurds. You would be surprised how much of the Sunni and Shia population there actually like us. The media shows America only one side of things, the raging mobs with their fists raised.  Spend some time over there and you'll see.  Not everyone is out to get us.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jun 20, 2007)

Irish_Army01 said:


> So how do you purpose changing it?


 
IMO, time and patience.


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## Crusader74 (Jun 20, 2007)

Boondocksaint375 said:


> IMO, time and patience.



I hope your money doesn't run out before time and patience do..This must be costing the US tax payer a fortune...


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## Looon (Jun 20, 2007)

We should pull back to Kuwait and to the Kurdish part of the country. Then see what happens. I too, believe that it's time to go. It's time to let the Iraqies to step up and do for themselves.

We haven't lost anything........:2c:


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## Ex3 (Jun 20, 2007)

I thought this was a very interesting article.



> INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS:
> Why Gun-Barrel Democracy Doesn’t Work
> 
> By Bruce Bueno de Mesquita and George W. Downs
> ...


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jun 20, 2007)

Irish_Army01 said:


> I hope your money doesn't run out before time and patience do..This must be costing the US tax payer a fortune...


 

Well, money isnt everything.


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## Crusader74 (Jun 20, 2007)

Boondocksaint375 said:


> Well, money isnt everything.



You understand my point? I think without the finance from Congress you'll end up pulling out...IMO


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## AMRUSMCR (Jun 20, 2007)

The status quo is not working and there needs to be a radical change in how we're waging our campaign in Iraq. 

Time, patience, money and manpower might be the key to a long term "win" but we'd have to not only convince the American public of this but also find a sure fire solution to breaching the cultural divide of deathly hatred and intolerance that has dominated the region for thousands of years.  With those feelings brewing from a low to a fast boil in Iraq, there is no chance for a functioning democracy or even an oligarchy.

The one thing that will get the most response across most levels of a society is fear.  The insurgents who work within the Iraqi borders know this and wield it viciously.

As a nation that values our freedom, it is against our basic nature and humanity to use fear as a total and complete weapon.  To instill the kind of fear that is imposed under a dictator's regime, would be to turn our nation completely against the administration that uses it and the military that enforces it.

With all that being said, I think it is essential for our safety and security here to win in Iraq on some level... Once they quit fighting amongst themselves, their hatred will be looking for a new target.


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## Kurt V (Jun 20, 2007)

Boondocksaint375 said:


> We have many more friends in the ME than the Israelis and Kurds. You would be surprised how much of the Sunni and Shia population there actually like us. The media shows America only one side of things, the raging mobs with their fists raised.  Spend some time over there and you'll see.  Not everyone is out to get us.



Boon, I do not disagree that there are numerous Iraqis that like us on a personal one-to-one level. But you can say the same thing of the Iranians. Hell most Iranians really like individual Americans. Unfortunately, those same Iraqis will never be in a position of government. And make no mistake, the government that assumes power will most likely be anti-American. At least in the short run.

Our military objectives are already achieved. - Saddam is gone, Iraq has been de-Ba'athified, and is no threat to its neighbors or America. 
Though the country is awash in small arms, there are are no viable armor, air, or sea capabilities, and certainly no WMD in Iraq. While jihadist are operating in Iraq, the insurgency is a largely homegrown operation. The bombings and violence will likely continue for a time, but without American ordinance, and the face of American occupiers, the insurgency will loose it's primary ignition source. Our main military objective are already complete. We can support Iraq on rescue missions, special opeations, anti - or counter terrorist missions, and as consultants, - but Americans roaming the streets of Iraq is a foolish and fruitless strategy. 


I would suggest that secular Iraq has no intention of becoming  a jihadist theocracy, and will eventually reject, isolate, and defang the jihadist elements in Iraq now through uniquely Iraqi ways and means. We should allow this process to unravel according to Iraqi policies.


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## Typhoon (Jun 21, 2007)

> The civil war we leave behind may well draw in Syria, Turkey and Iran.


Iran is a huge problem right now. They are fomenting all kinds of turbulence with the idea of becoming the dominant power in the region. They are also working feverishly to develop deliverable nuclear weapons, and are not too far off from doing so. Iran has a long history of using agents and provocateurs in Iraq dating back to the days before Saddam came to power, and, if I remember correctly, in the time of the Shah and the Savak. We know for certain that the Iranians are sending in weapons and explosives that are being used against our guys. Why we are not confronting the Iranians on this I have no idea.

If we walk out of Iraq it cedes a big chunk of the region to Iran. This would be a very dangerous thing to the middle east and to our interests there.


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## Kurt V (Jun 21, 2007)

Iran is already the dominant force in the region. Time to concede that. The issue is what do we do about it? Staying in Iraq only insures that more Americans will die in Iraq. It will do little to stop the nuclear program in Iran. In fact Iran just uses the American presence as an excuse to continue to develope nuclear weapons.


To influence Iran, the United States needs instruments of persuasion and dissuasion. Most of the persuasion instruments proposed by Europe have been economic agreements which smell like disguised bribes. Since Iran is flush with oil income that has swelled its foreign exchange reserves to over $30 billion, Tehran has dismissed these offers. A better approach is to concentrate on security measures, to counter the argument that Iran needs nuclear weapons because it has real security needs. There are many confidence and security-building measures and arms control measures which would provide gains for both Iran and the West. Examples would be an exchange of observers for military exercises in and near Iran, or agreements to prevent unintended naval confrontations. The point of making such offers would be first and foremost to impress world opinion with how reasonable the United States is being. After all, if NATO and the Warsaw Pact could agree on these types of protections at the height of the Cold War, then Iran would look stubborn and uncompromising if it refuses such measures when offered by Washington. Whether Iran accepts these offers is not the main point; we are primarily in a battle for hearts and minds. Mostly the hearts and minds of Europeans, Russians, and Chinese not to mention the hearts and minds of Americans and Iranians as well. The more the great powers take a unified stance blaming Iran for causing a crisis, the more pressure Iran will feel to concede.


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## RackMaster (Jun 23, 2007)

Kurt V said:


> If we were Russia or some other insecure nation, we might have to worry about credibility. A hyperpower need not worry about credibility. That’s one of the great advantages of being a hyperpower: When we have made a big strategic mistake, we can reverse it. And it may even enhance our credibility. Staying there damages our credibility more than leaving.
> 
> *The civil war we leave behind may well draw in Syria, Turkey and Iran.  But already today each of those states is deeply involved in support for or opposition to factions in the ongoing Iraqi civil war. The very act of invading Iraq almost insured that violence would involve the larger region. And so it has and will continue, with, or without, US forces in Iraq. *The US presence is not preventing Shiite-Sunni conflict; it merely delays it. Iran is preventing it today, and it will probably encourage it once the Shiites dominate the new government, an outcome US policy virtually ensures.





Boondocksaint375 said:


> I think b leaving we would just make more enemies.  *I don't see anyone gettinginto office in 2008 that will just up and pull our military out of Iraq.*  I do see bench marks in Iraqs future at some point though (which I doubt they will be able to meet). Iraq need a much stronger Army, many more troops, and the Iranian interference needs to be stopped by whatever measures necessary, IMO. We've let that shit go on for far too long.





Ranger Luna said:


> *We should pull back to Kuwait and to the Kurdish part of the country. Then see what happens.* I too, believe that it's time to go. It's time to let the Iraqies to step up and do for themselves.
> 
> We haven't lost anything........:2c:



This is a very good discussion.  I agree that you need to pull out but I don't think that it should be a complete withdrawal.  I think the US people will follow history's footsteps and they are going to want you to leave.  

The area's instability is not due to the US presence, it's always been unstable.  And if you pull back and let the instability run it's course, it may in fact create possible solutions for some of the other critically watched nations in the area.    I don't think it will be just an Iraqi Civil War left in your wake, it will be an all out Middle Eastern war; with nations of Influence like Iran grabbing for land and power and bringing in their "pawns" like Syria.  Let the war start, and it break up borders and weaken those not directly in conflict now.  Then bomb the shit out of specific targets and in the aftermath, let the other Nations in the ME divide the mess up.  If that doesn't work, make a huge fucking mirror. ;)


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## jordan (Jun 24, 2007)

First off, I would like to say that this is a really good thread. I went through and read each page and each response, unbiased and with an open mind. It is true, the majority of Iraqi citizens actually like Americans. Some are still scared to come out and openly show it for fear of retalliation from some terrorist groups but I have been met with more smiles and friendly gestures than I have with 7.62 heading my way. Even when we bust into their homes and interrupt their family dinner, they still ask us to stay and eat with them or stay for tea. Unfortunatly, as much as I would like to sit down and find out their story, alot of times we are unable too. I only wish the American media would show all the absolutly amazing things that American soldiers do day in and day out. In a country with such ugliness and senseless acts of random violence, it always brings a smile to my face when I see a little kid get excited when you just give him a simple soccer ball.. But it just made his/her week. I, like many others in this forum, have spent a great deal of my life dedicated the Army and to operations overseas such as Operation Iraqi Freedom. I am currently in Baghdad right now, I have been here for the last 8 months and I have spent some time in other areas of Iraq before as well. Last April, after we found out we were extended, I wrote a blog and I think it might fit in here so.. I will admit, I was a little.. angry at the time. And some of it was just an 'emotional enema', but anyways, I'll just cut and paste it. 


I have worked alot with the Iraqi Army..alot. They are fully capable of taking control of their own shit and fighting for thier own country... but I have heard it from them too many times before "we are not going to do that without the Americans there..we want American help" They are too dependant on us. But we have fed them enough, we have supplied them, we have trained them and we have mentored them.. Its time to cut the impilical cord and let them grow as a security force for this country. While they might have some learning to do still, they need to do that through trial and error. No one ever came to the great United States of America long ass fucking time ago and helped us. And now look at us. The greatest military on the globe. We had to learn and we did it by muskets, pitchforks and hatchets. But if 'they' really want to help these people than do it.. help them.. sending American combat soldiers out on daily combat patrols through the city is not helping them. Send people here to teach these bitches about medicine, electricity, water purifying and fucking sewage control. HELP THEM. Since this 'surge' of troops in the capital, we have seen a huge lapse in violence. We have put a little plug in them killing each other. Sectarian violence is down. Its at a real low along with stupid fucking IEDs. And thats great. Really really good. I am personally very happy with that... but they still exist. Last week I was sitting somewhere in baghdad outside of a Iraqi Army post getting ready to eat luch when an IED went off 80meters behind me and down the street, the concussion shook my guts. I kind of stopped for a minute looked around as I heard metal flying down the street and clanging off the pavement behind me. Minutes later the IA patrol wanders into the gates and they were obviosly pissed off at each other.. yelling at one another.. i dont think any one was hurt and i dont have the slightest idea what the hell they were saying but i dont think it was good by the sound of it.. I can only imagine it was something along the lines of "holy shit Akmed, I told you to turn fucking left not right, now Mohamud has to clean the shit out of his pants, Abdulla pissed himself and Aladdin and his driver Abu couldnt finsh thier homosexual exploits in the backseat..." My point to this is this.. I am not complaining one bit, so I hope it doesnt come off like that. But for them to tell us we are going to be here for an extra 3 months, to me, doesnt make any damn sense whatsoever. We are not going to suddenly miracuously perform wonders and this country of 20 something million is not going to suddenly give a shit. It hard to help a society that doesnt want it, or people that stay divided and each sect wants ultimate power. I personally say, lets go.. The Shiites/Shias are probably going to fuck up the Sunni's and than the Kurds are going to come down and take control of this entire country. Fuck it, let the cards fall where they may. As long as we keep the Kurds on our side, everything should be alright.. Hopefully. 'They' rant and rave about how 'they' want to help these people secure this country and make thier lives better, we can find other ways of doing it than having guys like me exchanging rounds with the locals in the middle of a street somewhere. I dont really get into the whole political side of things when it comes to this, I rather not but..I know terrorism has been around a long damn time, and it will continue to be around for a long damn time, Iraq or no Iraq, and its not something that we can pick our battles. But keeping us in a place that we just keep breaking shit while we are trying to rebuild it is re-damn-diculous. While some of these personal thoughts and feelings may seem like a contradiction at times, so is this whole entire country. The thoughts, motives and purpose in the heads of the leadership boggles my mind and I fail to understand why most of the time. But.. I love the United States, that will never change. I pledge my alliegance to the red white and blue and I will still defeat my enemies on the battlefield for her, where ever that may be. I just question the principles and motives of the people that call the shots thats all...


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## Gypsy (Jun 24, 2007)

Thanks for sharing that jordan, I really appreciate the opportunity to read your words.


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## tova (Jun 24, 2007)

jordan said:


> They are too dependant on....



I think that sentence states the underlying problem (imho) perfectly.


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