# Question regarding combat medical jobs in the Army



## Some Guy (May 18, 2017)

I realize I tend to ramble and type before I think, so I'll keep this consise. Couldn't find the information I was looking for through search function, I apologize if I missed it.

I'm currently enlisted to be a 68w (which is to say, I haven't gone through BCT yet, pretty obviously, I imagine). For experience in combat medicine, with emphasis on medicine, would I be better off staying with this, or transitioning into a special operations medical position? 

Or would that depend entirely on my unit and my personal ability?


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## TLDR20 (May 18, 2017)

I don't understand your question? If you want experience in medicine go to medical school, or nursing school and come in as one of those. If you want to be a combat medic join as a 68W. The best medics have a W1 identifier which means they have been to SOCM. 

Are you in good shape? Could you run 5 miles right this second? Could you do 10 dead hang pull ups? 75 push ups? If the answer to any of those questions is no, SOCM isn't right for you.


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## policemedic (May 18, 2017)

Some Guy said:


> I realize I tend to ramble and type before I think, so I'll keep this consise. Couldn't find the information I was looking for through search function, I apologize if I missed it.
> 
> I'm currently enlisted to be a 68w (which is to say, I haven't gone through BCT yet, pretty obviously, I imagine). For experience in combat medicine, with emphasis on medicine, would I be better off staying with this, or transitioning into a special operations medical position?
> 
> Or would that depend entirely on my unit and my personal ability?



Do you mean the same SOF position you have misgivings about attempting to earn because someone you trained may turn into Mr. Hyde?


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## Some Guy (May 18, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> I don't understand your question? If you want experience in medicine go to medical school, or nursing school and come in as one of those. If you want to be a combat medic join as a 68W. The best medics have a W1 identifier which means they have been to SOCM.
> 
> Are you in good shape? Could you run 5 miles right this second? Could you do 10 dead hang pull ups? 75 push ups? If the answer to any of those questions is no, SOCM isn't right for you.




I could run 5 miles, but the rest, I'm still working on.

As for my question, my interest is in combat medicine, so, being a combat medic, but I'm slightly more interested in the medical side of it. 

So, a job where I'm more involved with medevacs, and aid stations, would be preferable, but fieldwork also interests me. 

I guess my question is, do special operations medics work with those, or anything similar, or do they tend to focus more on the combat side of the job?


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## Some Guy (May 18, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Do you mean the same SOF position you have misgivings about attempting to earn because someone you trained may turn into Mr. Hyde?



Hey, my only sources of info are Hollywood, Google, the news, and a recruiter, all of which I trust about as far as I can throw, so unless one of those suddenly became honest, I'm pretty much clueless


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## Deleted member 10816 (May 18, 2017)

Hey man, from a quick Google search I found the Navy's description of the joint SOCM course. Special Operations Combat Medic Course

"The goal of the Special Operations Combat Medic (SOCM) course is to train and qualify selected enlisted members to manage trauma patients, manage patients prior to medical evacuation, and provide basic medical care to team members."

Think of SOCM trained medics as "mid-level" providers, similar to civilian PA. 

NOTE: information sourced from internet and books, not experience. Please understand I don't have experience in this subject.


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## Some Guy (May 18, 2017)

Kmart said:


> Hey man, from a quick Google search I found the Navy's description of the joint SOCM course. Special Operations Combat Medic Course
> 
> "The goal of the Special Operations Combat Medic (SOCM) course is to train and qualify selected enlisted members to manage trauma patients, manage patients prior to medical evacuation, and provide basic medical care to team members."
> 
> ...



Thanks, though, I'm asking more about if they tend to get more experience using that medical training, I do know that SOCOM medics are some of the best first responder personnel around, I just don't know how frequently they have to use it


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## Some Guy (May 18, 2017)

Correction, meant to say if they get more experience with the other parts of the combat medic job, such as medivacs, aid stations, etc


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## Muppet (May 18, 2017)

I was a lowly Paratrooper medic with no special operations experience but in my opinion, it depends on your unit and when you go in. Like TLDR said, some of the best line docs are SOCM's but if you go to a line unit, you will do some good medic shit also. Depends on what you want, like what has been said.

M.


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## Some Guy (May 18, 2017)

Muppet said:


> I was a lowly Paratrooper medic with no special operations experience but in my opinion, it depends on your unit and when you go in. Like TLDR said, some of the best line docs are SOCM's but if you go to a line unit, you will do some good medic shit also. Depends on what you want, like what has been said.
> 
> M.



Alright, got it, thanks for the info


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## TLDR20 (May 18, 2017)

Some Guy said:


> I could run 5 miles, but the rest, I'm still working on.
> 
> As for my question, my interest is in combat medicine, so, being a combat medic, but I'm slightly more interested in the medical side of it.
> 
> ...



I can only speak as an 18D, which you likely will never become, but as an 18D a minuscule amount of time is spent on training medically compared to training for the myriad of other shit you have to do. Shooting, demo, jumping, communications training, all kinds of miscellaneous stuff. All of that has a medical component. You will be lugging your aid bag around, you will be treating teammates for illnesses, seeing their kids for ear infections. Maybe once a year you do an official battalion level refresh, and every two you do a SOCM refresh. As for working in a clinic, stateside that is rare occurrence. Deployed you may run your own clinic.


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## TLDR20 (May 18, 2017)

Kmart said:


> Hey man, from a quick Google search I found the Navy's description of the joint SOCM course. Special Operations Combat Medic Course
> 
> "The goal of the Special Operations Combat Medic (SOCM) course is to train and qualify selected enlisted members to manage trauma patients, manage patients prior to medical evacuation, and provide basic medical care to team members."
> 
> ...



A SOCM medic is nothing like a PA. A SOCM medic is a really good trauma and critical care transport paramedic/nurse.


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## Gunz (May 18, 2017)

Muppet said:


> ...I was a lowly Paratrooper medic...



Ain't _nuthin_ lowly about that, Brother.


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## Deleted member 10816 (May 18, 2017)

@TLDR20 My mistake. 

An author from ArmyRanger.com (with his piece republished by the Havok Journal) describes his SOCM course experience, writing that "because of the often austere and remote environments in which you will operate your scope of practice is comparable to a Nurse Practitioner or a Physician’s Assistant." 
http://havokjournal.com/national-security/inside-the-special-operations-combat-medic-course/

Of course civilian PA's do not practice medicine while under fire or rope out of helos like a SOCM, but is this author's description (of a certain role) still accurate?

I'm not in any way attempting to argue or challenge anyone's experience, I would just like to clarify any confusion on my part.


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## Some Guy (May 18, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> I can only speak as an 18D, which you likely will never become, but as an 18D a minuscule amount of time is spent on training medically compared to training for the myriad of other shit you have to do. Shooting, demo, jumping, communications training, all kinds of miscellaneous stuff. All of that has a medical component. You will be lugging your aid bag around, you will be treating teammates for illnesses, seeing their kids for ear infections. Maybe once a year you do an official battalion level refresh, and every two you do a SOCM refresh. As for working in a clinic, stateside that is rare occurrence. Deployed you may run your own clinic.



I'll keep all that in mind, thanks


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## TLDR20 (May 18, 2017)

Kmart said:


> @TLDR20 My mistake.
> 
> An author from ArmyRanger.com (with his piece republished by the Havok Journal) describes his SOCM course experience, writing that "because of the often austere and remote environments in which you will operate your scope of practice is comparable to a Nurse Practitioner or a Physician’s Assistant."
> Inside the Special Operations Combat Medic Course
> ...



The author doesn't have a great grasp on the realities of the scope of an NP or a PA. I was under a similar impression before I became a nurse and have seen how NP's and PA's practice outside the Army. I would say a 18D or Navy SARC IDC is closer to a PA than a SOCM medic but still a long long way off.

A good example is based simply off of what you have in austere environment on which to base any potential diagnosis, while good for an austere environment, a SOF medic is at best treating a surface condition. A SOF independent practitioner like an 18D or SARC IDC simply doesn't have the ability to delve deeper than a cursory lab check. Much of what we do is formulaic, when stuff falls outside of that formula, there isn't the same level of ability. There is a reason we are trained to be able to call back and relay symptoms to a PA or MD, then treat off their recommendation.

ETA: for reference I was one of Kirby's instructors in CTM.


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## Deleted member 10816 (May 18, 2017)

Understood, thanks for taking the time to explain!


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## policemedic (May 18, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> I can only speak as an 18D, which you likely will never become, but as an 18D a minuscule amount of time is spent on training medically compared to training for the myriad of other shit you have to do. Shooting, demo, jumping, communications training, all kinds of miscellaneous stuff. All of that has a medical component. You will be lugging your aid bag around, you will be treating teammates for illnesses, seeing their kids for ear infections. Maybe once a year you do an official battalion level refresh, and every two you do a SOCM refresh. As for working in a clinic, stateside that is rare occurrence. Deployed you may run your own clinic.



That's the thing that many people never realize.  It was true for me in the Army and it's true in SWAT.  What may be a training evolution for everyone else is always a real-world mission for the medic because we must always be ready for things to go tits up.  It could be a training accident or something unexpected like new onset PSVT or biliary colic or renal calculi, but that's why we're there (in addition to doing all the training everyone else is).


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## AWP (May 18, 2017)

Kmart said:


> Think of SOCM trained medics as "mid-level" providers, similar to civilian PA.
> 
> NOTE: information sourced from internet and books, not experience. Please understand I don't have experience in this subject.



While your enthusiasm is understandable and you dropped the caveat regarding books, the others in this thread are supplying information based upon their experiences, one of whom is a former 18D instructor. I'd refrain from posting about things outside of your experience.


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## Deleted member 10816 (May 18, 2017)

AWP said:


> While your enthusiasm is understandable and you dropped the caveat regarding books, the others in this thread are supplying information based upon their experiences, one of whom is a former 18D instructor. I'd refrain from posting about things outside of your experience.



I understand and will stay in my lane.


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## TLDR20 (May 18, 2017)

I'm going to keep piling on because this is something I saw/heard a lot of when I was in the course, and while an instructor. Many guys assume because they are/were an 18D they are the same as a PA. Maybe it is because almost all the SFMS courses are taught by PA's and the refrain of, "this is the first year of PA school in 5 months" was common. But let me say this, an 18D is not a PA. They certainly aren't an acute care NP. A SOCM medic is nowhere close to either. 

A SOCM medic isn't the same mid level provider an 18D is. They may think they are, but they are not. And it isn't close. An 18D by the end of the course probably has experience managing a human through anesthesia, placing and monitoring central lines, prescribing antibiotic treatment, and many other things. SOCM's aren't doing ANY of that. 

That being said, the average 18D has a great deal of schooling initially, then goes to a team and forgets a lot of it. Yes he can still do sick call, do great trauma medicine, but the good 18D is consulting his PA for anything more than Motrin, or some STD shit. Why? Because that honestly isn't his primary job. The job of any SF guy is to wage unconventional warfare on our adversaries. Any SF guy is a shooter first. I don't need to go to schools to be a better sick call Doc, I need to go to schools to learn to drive better, shoot better, develop relationships better, and a myriad of other skills. Imagine trying to be the best shooter, foreign language speaking, explosives rearing, CIA agent, medical provider... there are priorities and medical stuff falls towards the lower end when two dudes on the team are already trauma gods...


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## Muppet (May 19, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Ain't _nuthin_ lowly about that, Brother.



Thanks bro, meant to kind of be tongue and cheek but thanks brother...

M.


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## Devildoc (May 19, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> I would say a 18D or Navy SARC IDC is closer to a PA than a SOCM medic but still a long long way off.



I would extend that to all IDCs, not just SOCM IDCs.  Used to be, an IDC could waive/test out/credit applied year one of a PA program, but they did away with that some years ago.  Some of the best mid-levels I have seen, anywhere, were ship IDCs.  In fact it is a critically undermanned NEC.

Regarding advanced skills, one of my frustrations as a regular ol' corpsman, is our scope was dictated by the battalion surgeon.  One of ours taught us central lines and chest tubes; when he left, the next did away with that for line corpsmen, but allowed the HMs assigned to BAS to do those (which was a good thing).  At least as a SOCM, even though not a Delta, has a fairly expansive skillset.


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## Gunz (May 20, 2017)

Muppet said:


> Thanks bro, meant to kind of be tongue and cheek but thanks brother...
> 
> M.



I know, bro...just a raised glass in your direction.


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## Muppet (May 20, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> I know, bro...just a raised glass in your direction.



Cheers bro. As I am for you...

M.


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