# PJ washouts being discharged???



## Hamijc5 (Jan 25, 2010)

My buddy just failed his second week eval because he could not float for buddy breathing(super Lean). The cadre said everything else exceeded graduation standards. So, there is a possibility he gets reclassed for TACP; But word on the street is others are being DISCHARGED from the AF. Is the discharge rumor true or is it a scare tactic??? The contract def says you can be discharged, but it hasn't really been done before.It would be a huge waste of money to send someone through BMT, they fail in week 5 and get totally discharged. :doh::confused:


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## 8'Duece (Jan 25, 2010)

Those damn AF's, their so snippity. 

Had a guy in the Airborne school who couldn't fall (too lean) so they kicked him to leg land.


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## Florida173 (Jan 26, 2010)

You'd think that any PJ washout would a valuable asset to any other job in the AF.  Pity if they really are discharging.


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## DA SWO (Jan 26, 2010)

Florida173 said:


> You'd think that any PJ washout would a valuable asset to any other job in the AF.  Pity if they really are discharging.



Depends on his attitude, they could always make him a cop.


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## Hamijc5 (Jan 26, 2010)

SOWT said:


> Depends on his attitude, they could always make him a cop.


 
This seems to be the trend. It just blows my mind that there are poeple that can't even pass their tech school and stay in, but you have these guys that are more in shape (most of the time) and more confident in themselves and they are" BYE BYE"


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## FNULNU (Jan 26, 2010)

It would be stupid for them to discharge guys for that, but wouldn't surprise me in the least.  The AF does stuff like that.  I've seen them do dumber things personnel wise...


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## 0699 (Jan 26, 2010)

I call bullshit.  The services aren't throwing people out for failing a school, they'll reclass them.

You heard it here first.  Bullshit.


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## Copenhagen (Jan 26, 2010)

A buddy of mine enlisted with a GTEP PJ contract less than a year ago. I remember him saying something about a clause in his contract that stated if he was dropped during the pipeline (for any reason other than quitting), that he would be separated from the Air Force. 

I'm not positive, so this could be inaccurate.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 26, 2010)

I think it would be case-by-case bases. Something to think about is a recruit (or whatever the AF calls them) has signed a contract for a particular field, if he fails to meet the requirements in training then it is in fact a breach of contract on his/her end. The Army way to deal with this is offer then a chance to try again, offer them a different MOS or discharge them. I would think it is the same for the USAF.

If some snot nose failed and then was told you can be a cop (security forces) then that snot nose may say fuck that I want to be a PJ that’s what I signed up to be. At that point the USAF would really have no choice then to discharge them…

Buddies will tell you tall tails about how they were rifted or cheated in some way or form, but in most cases they quit or simply did not like the options on the table and decided to go home.

One of the funny thing I see in the Military is people attempting to join and saying “I will only join if I can be XXXX” well news flash IT’s NOT ABOUT YOU! There can only be so many “Special kids” so many “combat kids” and the rest are support. Just b/c you want it or think you should get it doesn’t mean you should have it. And serving your country, as a member of the Unites States Military is not a right, it’s a fucking privilege. 

Personally I think they should make 10 enlisted grades, bump every grade up one and make E1 the official “Bitch” rank where you serve as a go-for this bitch for a good 6 to 9 months before* “you are told” *what MOS school you are going too… But hey that’s just me…


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## txpj007 (Jan 26, 2010)

no its legit.  dont agree with it but the AF see's it as the easiest way to cut manning.  they are over by 4000 airman the last i heard.  yes there are some good airmen that wash out of indoc that would be great airmen in a different AFSC.  the ones that wash out due to standards will be looked at but only 10% of those guys will get a chance at reclass.  if you quit or are not deemed an asset then chances are VERY high you will be discharged...about as high as the washout rate at indoc.

btw hamijc5 no offense to you but....no one fails buddy breathing for not being able to float.  they failed second week eval because they came up for a breath on buddy breathing.  

i do agree that there are better tech schools to pull guys from...the AF may be doing this and i just havent heard about it.


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## AssadUSMC (Jan 26, 2010)

I'd say bye-bye and go out for 18D in the Army.


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## Reaper (Jan 26, 2010)

I'm leaving for BMT on 23 March with Hamijc5 and we are both on a PJ contract.

I spoke with my recruiter today and she said that it is true and the majority of the cuts are coming from the high wash out rate AFSC's. I think it's wrong, but it is what they are doing. I'm not quite sure what I will do if by chance they do fail me and I am discharged. I asked her if that did happen if I could go back to the AF, or another branch and I didn't get a straight answer. Any one know this? I mean it's obvious it'd be extremely hard to go AF, what about other branches(just keeping options open, just in case)?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 26, 2010)

Reaper said:


> I'm leaving for BMT on 23 March with Hamijc5 and we are both on a PJ contract.
> 
> I spoke with my recruiter today and she said that it is true and the majority of the cuts are coming from the high wash out rate AFSC's. I think it's wrong, but it is what they are doing. I'm not quite sure what I will do if by chance they do fail me and I am discharged. I asked her if that did happen if I could go back to the AF, or another branch and I didn't get a straight answer. Any one know this? I mean it's obvious it'd be extremely hard to go AF, what about other branches(just keeping options open, just in case)?


 
It depends on the reenlistment code they give you, they can bar you from enlistment for 2 years to the rest of your life and anything between. I would think if you were discharged for failure in training you would be untouchable for a while, might need a waiver to join another branch. The Army will normally pick people up with bad reenlistment codes. I was bared from enlistment by the USMC at the age of 18, but was able to join the National Guard a year later( no other branch would touch me at the time).


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## Reaper (Jan 26, 2010)

J.A.B. said:


> It depends on the reenlistment code they give you, they can bar you from enlistment for 2 years to the rest of your life and anything between. I would think if you were discharged for failure in training you would be untouchable for a while, might need a waiver to join another branch. The Army will normally pick people up with bad reenlistment codes. I was bared from enlistment by the USMC at the age of 18, but was able to join the National Guard a year later( no other branch would touch me at the time).




If thats the case, I'll go back to school and shoot for something as an officer down the road if possible. I've had several current and retired military tell me that I could make it but I'll be screwing myself if something happens, and that I should change my contract. But, I 1). don't want to change my contract, and 2.) can't change it even if I wanted to.

Not much I can really do at this point but make the best of it and bust my ass.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 26, 2010)

Reaper, I am not a PJ so I won’t tell you anything about that, but what I will say is that you have to fight for what you want. You have to earn your right to be a part of what you want, regardless of what it is. Be it a street gang or an elite military unit, you earn your right become a member of it.

If you are not fully devoted to your goal of becoming a PJ, then maybe you should wait. But if you are in shape and are 110% focused and devoted to becoming a PJ, you should fight tooth and nail to do so… Knowing that if you fail you may be screwed military wise is a good thing IMO. It would tell me that I cannot fail and that they will have to kill me to make me quit or fail in the training.

Only you can decide how important becoming a PJ is to you, but simply quitting b/c of a fear of failure will leave you with a “what if” for the rest of your life. I would make a choice how important it is to you and if it is that important I would give everything you possibly have to make it happen…


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## Reaper (Jan 26, 2010)

J.A.B. said:


> Reaper, I am not a PJ so I won’t tell you anything about that, but what I will say is that you have to fight for what you want. You have to earn your right to be a part of what you want, regardless of what it is. Be it a street gang or an elite military unit, you earn your right become a member of it.
> 
> If you are not fully devoted to your goal of becoming a PJ, then maybe you should wait. But if you are in shape and are 110% focused and devoted to becoming a PJ, you should fight tooth and nail to do so… Knowing that if you fail you may be screwed military wise is a good thing IMO. It would tell me that I cannot fail and that they will have to kill me to make me quit or fail in the training.
> 
> Only you can decide how important becoming a PJ is to you, but simply quitting b/c of a fear of failure will leave you with a “what if” for the rest of your life. I would make a choice how important it is to you and if it is that important I would give everything you possibly have to make it happen…



I'm using it as motivation, I can almost complete all of the INDOC graduation standards, and I bust my ass 6days/week training. I have enough "what if's" in life, this has been something I have been preparing for, for over 1 year, I have just been plagued with injuries. I'm in this, I'm not backing down, no way, no how. It's a stressful thought that is in the back of my head, but instead of letting it worry me, I'm using it to push me in training. Tomorrow was just going to be a 4 mile run, 3000m fin swim and some pt...instead, It'll be RUN,SWIM,RUN,SWIM,RUN-3miles in the runs and 3000m in the swims/PT in between. If I fail its not because I won't be in shape.

Thanks for your input, I appreciate it, and I appreciate you for your service. 

Godbless


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## DA SWO (Jan 27, 2010)

Hamijc5:

Good luck, do your best at BMT and obviously never quit.
Rhe RE Code for those ho fail (for what ever reason) is the key to a continued Military Career.  Tell your friend to ensure he gets a code that allows him to re-enlist, I'd also tell him to contact an Air Guard unit with TACP once he is finished seperating from AD.


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## 08steeda (Jan 27, 2010)

Hamijc5 said:


> My buddy just failed his second week eval because he could not float for buddy breathing(super Lean). The cadre said everything else exceeded graduation standards. So, there is a possibility he gets reclassed for TACP; But word on the street is others are being DISCHARGED from the AF. Is the discharge rumor true or is it a scare tactic??? The contract def says you can be discharged, but it hasn't really been done before.It would be a huge waste of money to send someone through BMT, they fail in week 5 and get totally discharged. :doh::confused:



That was what happened to me (many moons ago!) I would sink like a rock! So they reclassified me for SERE Instructor. It was a cool gig!!! It would be a real waste to discharge them because if they make it that far then they are in pretty good shape, highly motivated and can succeed elsewhere in the AF.


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## JustAnotherJ (Jan 27, 2010)

Not to rain on the parade here guys, but you two (Hamjic and Reaper) need take this washout shit and throw it right out of your mind.  You need to focus on success and not the various options you'll have if you fail, because deep down, what are you telling yourself..."I'm gonna fail."  So knock this shit off, get your heads in the game and go pass that course.  We need solid quality dudes in Pararescue.


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## 08steeda (Jan 27, 2010)

JustAnotherJ said:


> Not to rain on the parade here guys, but you two (Hamjic and Reaper) need take this washout shit and throw it right out of your mind.  You need to focus on success and not the various options you'll have if you fail, because deep down, what are you telling yourself..."I'm gonna fail."  So knock this shit off, get your heads in the game and go pass that course.  We need solid quality dudes in Pararescue.



On Point!!!! Great advice!!!


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## 0699 (Jan 27, 2010)

txpj007 said:


> no its legit.  dont agree with it but the AF see's it as the easiest way to cut manning.  they are over by 4000 airman the last i heard.  yes there are some good airmen that wash out of indoc that would be great airmen in a different AFSC.  the ones that wash out due to standards will be looked at but only 10% of those guys will get a chance at reclass.  if you quit or are not deemed an asset then chances are VERY high you will be discharged...about as high as the washout rate at indoc.
> 
> btw hamijc5 no offense to you but....no one fails buddy breathing for not being able to float.  they failed second week eval because they came up for a breath on buddy breathing.
> 
> i do agree that there are better tech schools to pull guys from...the AF may be doing this and i just havent heard about it.



Note the day people; I have now been officially wrong once. :)

Seems crazy to me.  The Corps would never do that; there's always a need for more cooks or field wiremen...


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## txpj007 (Jan 28, 2010)

as crazy as it sounds you have to look at it this way.  indoc usually starts with around 100-120 guys each class.  only 10-15% of these guys graduate...sometimes less.  with around 7 classes a year thats around 650-750 guys that have to be reclassified...and that number is for pararescue only.  now add the washouts at CCT, EOD and SERE and thats a lot of guys.  like i said the last number i heard was around 4000 airman to many in the air force.  i dont whole heartedly agree with it but to the higher ups its a numbers game and i guess that was the easiest number that popped out to them on paper i suppose.


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## formerBrat (Jan 28, 2010)

Correct me if I am wrong txpj007, but this also started a couple years ago on the O side of Special Tactics, when it was indicated that they were needing to reduce force size. If an individual tried to go from one AFSC into CRO or STO, and failed they were shown the door to the civilian world. I only read about it and thought to myself, well that's incentive to make sure that's what you REALLY wanted to do before trying out for a slot and also I guess it kept Big Blue from offering incentives for early outs.


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## amlove21 (Jan 28, 2010)

Things could have changed in 2 years- but an Airman with a guaranteed contract is given what equals a review board upon failing out of Indoc- at which time a recommendation is given for crosstraining or reclass. If you dont get the nod- then yea, you are "out". Very seldom -  I.E. my indoc team had 60 quitters on it, the one before mine had 70-ish and NONE of them were discharged- do you get "shown the door" for simply failing. I smell some other part of the story, somewhere.

Bottom line- quitting = bad and you should NOT do it.


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## txpj007 (Jan 28, 2010)

amlove21 said:


> Things could have changed in 2 years- but an Airman with a guaranteed contract is given what equals a review board upon failing out of Indoc- at which time a recommendation is given for crosstraining or reclass. If you dont get the nod- then yea, you are "out". Very seldom -  I.E. my indoc team had 60 quitters on it, the one before mine had 70-ish and NONE of them were discharged- do you get "shown the door" for simply failing. I smell some other part of the story, somewhere.
> 
> Bottom line- quitting = bad and you should NOT do it.



its still the same "review board" type setting for airmen that are eliminated for standards.  the only difference is before you were reclassed no questions asked.  the new air force policy is now discharge...how long this will last is yet to be determined.  this new directive just came down like 3 weeks ago.


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## Hamijc5 (Jan 28, 2010)

Well Reguardless of policy, Pararescue is something I have wanted to do for a LONG time and Ive been training for over a year to be successful and I will do whatever it takes to pass. They will have to kill me to get me out and that will be my mentality. Ive got 7 weeks to go; Ive sold everything I own,dropped a job and now have nothing,but eat,sleep and workout and thats all I care about for the next 7 weeks. I know its not a walk in the park, I know I will have to pull everything out of myself at times to get a task achieved, and with that said I want to be a PJ,so someone can go home and give there wife and kids kiss at the end of the day at whatever price it cost me. So whatever the Air force wants to do with me when I PASS indoc from pure heart and determination, then we'll talk! Thank for the input guys and sorry for rambeling, but I just dont understand people that enter with the mindset it will be tough and oh I can handle it, Ive ran a mile or two for a few weeks. My  buddy in indoc now said they went to the pool the first week and while standing in line the kid behind him said "OMG we have to swim??" These are the people that are being discharged and have no right even starting INDOC. If anyone has any constructive criticizim,Im am a man and will accept it please be open minded. Feel free to email me any advise and I will take it with me everywhere I go.


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## Reaper (Jan 28, 2010)

Just another J-I'm using it as motivation, it was just a shocker to me hearing that if something happened we would be out, no questions asked. Your damn right, that we have to have a no quit attitude and to get this shit out of our heads, because it is do or die for me, literally. As far as I'm concerned, If I quit, someone dies, and I don't want that kind of blood on my hands. That is how I get through my own training and that is how I will get through my future training. 


Thanks for all the advice and comments guys


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## smalls (May 9, 2010)

*Discharging after Indoc*

:)I was in BALLZ 004 - 10 that is still continuing right now. I couldnt keep up with the intensity of the training as they ramped it up.  They ramp it up very quickly. No crawl, walk, run phase, its more like jog, sprint, and then balls out. 

I made it to the 4th week, failed some evals on buddy breathing and 25m mask and snorkle recc, but the Cadre dont wash you out just for that.  So from my experience it really depends on the Cadre, if they see that you got room for improvement they will work with you, no more like work you until you satisfy those requirements.  

If they see that on a regular training day you can pass the buddy breathing and snorkle reccs etc but not on the test day, they do take that into consideration. I did fine on the same exercises on regular days.  In my case I put out like hell every day I was there and they didnt wash me out because I failed a few evals.  The stress of a test day is high and they understand that.

But they also know that in one way or another if you dont have the stamina to keep up with the training or desire to keep going, they know you will wash yourself out.  I think when passing evals really counts is in the final eval.  If you dont pass an eval, yes you will wash out and most likely get set back to the next pre-team.  At that point you do have the choice to reclass and move on to another afsc Spec Ops or regular, or you can get on the next BALLZ team.

One of my buddies from my bmt flight is still in there.  He does fine on every eval except treading water.  Cant keep his head above water and hasnt passed a treading eval since week 2, but he gives everything he's got every single day and never scurves.  Cadre notice that and take that into consideration.

I finished off one of the toughest days of my life, and it was a standard training day. We finished an entire day of interval training at the track, G&Gs, finning, more G&Gs, weights, cals and more cals, a smoke session at the school house then a smoke session at the pool and came down to water con.  Man I was passing out on underwaters with charged masks and booties on with all of our gear at the bottom of the pool and all around us with the sirens goin off and all that stuff.  It sucked.  But that was just an easy day.  My problem is I was smoked.  I made the decision that night that my body wouldnt allow me to push on through the training any further, waking up at 0330 everyday I was just fricking smoked while the other guys on team were fine.  So I met my limit and showed up in my blues the next day.  At least I can say I made it past the 80% attrition rate though. We started off with 114 cones. There are 23 cones left on team. I was # 27 or 28 when I SIEd.They are going into week 5, HELL WEEK along with ETD.

Im a reservist so I was sent to a guard/reserve liaison and she did offer me the option to seperate from the AF.  She said alot of PJ washouts to choose to do this since the AF is downsizing now.  However Ive yet to hear of a cone gettng discharged just from falling out of Indoc. I think he would have to do some incredibly stupid things to get a discharge straight from Indoc.  Most men who get out choose another SpecOps afsc mainly TACP or SERE since there is little or no water con.  However if they do fail out of another afsc it is true that you will get discharged. I think that goes for any career field.

Im just waiting for my reclass now, discharging myself out of the AF wouldnt look too good in the civ world.


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## 08steeda (May 9, 2010)

SOWT said:


> Depends on his attitude, they could always make him a cop.



I had the same issue with treading water. I would sink like a stone. So they sent me to AF S.E.R.E. Indoc to become an Instructor. But that was in the mid 80's. It would be a waste to send them back to being a civi because of one evolution.


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## Rabid Badger (May 10, 2010)

JustAnotherJ said:


> Not to rain on the parade here guys, but you two (Hamjic and Reaper) need take this washout shit and throw it right out of your mind.  You need to focus on success and not the various options you'll have if you fail, because deep down, what are you telling yourself..."I'm gonna fail."  So knock this shit off, get your heads in the game and go pass that course.  We need solid quality dudes in Pararescue.



THIS..........



smalls said:


> :)* I was in BALLZ 004 - 10 that is still continuing right now...*............  *At least I can say I made it past the 80% attrition rate though.* We started off with 114 cones. There are 23 cones left on team. I was # 27 or 28 when I SIEd.They are going into week 5, HELL WEEK along with ETD.
> 
> Im just waiting for my reclass now, discharging myself out of the AF wouldnt look too good in the civ world.



oh, you know you have to go back.....this will eat at you for the rest of your life if you don't.....That 'I was thiiiiis close' thingie??

I applaud you for your effort but would rather congratulate you for your accomplishment. *THAT* is the difference. *

You were 'attritted', punto.* 

Guess what quitters that justify quitting are at the end of the day? :cool:

This is the exact reason SMU's have selection processes. No percentage should justify the fact that you didn't make the grade. I'm not calling you out,_ I'm saying a soldier who goes back and tries again more often than not makes it through the training because the cadre realize the heart of the 'returnee'._

*Go back and do it again.*


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## txpj007 (May 25, 2010)

---update---
so the air forces intent to remove washouts still stands.  it took a while to get all the parts in place but as it stands all quitters will be administratively discharged.  the reason for this is that all students entering into the PJ careerfield are VOLUNTEERS.  if a student quits beyond a certain point in training he can be recommended to go to another careerfield however if it doesnt meet the needs of the air force he will be administratively discharged. however if they show signs of malingering they will not be afforded that opportunity.  the air force as a whole is overmanned and some students have used the route of coming into pararescue as a means to get there foot in the door with the intent of quitting solely to get reclassed into another job.  

this policy applies for CCT, TACP and EOD as well...


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## x SF med (May 25, 2010)

If you quit, you are a quitter.
If you get injured, and can heal then continue, but you don't  - you are a quitter.
If you can't hack it - you are a nonselect.

If you get recycled - take it - it's a gift from the committee and a vote of confidence that you just need to dig a little deeper.

To all of the candidates for a ll SOF units...  if you quit, you are at the mercy of whichever service you joined.


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## 0699 (May 25, 2010)

If they're discharged during training, do they rate VA benefits?

Just curious...


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## txpj007 (May 25, 2010)

dont know...honestly not a concern of mine


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## car (May 25, 2010)

This isn't entirely new. A neighbor of mine in Monterey about five years ago, an AF E2, was dropped from Japanese for academic reasons. Instead of putting him into an "easier" language or re-classing him to another MOS, the AF discharged him. He was a squared away kid from what I saw, and you don't get to go to DLI if you're a dummy. Didn't make sense to me, but that's prolly why I wasn't in the Air Force.


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## DA SWO (May 25, 2010)

0699 said:


> If they're discharged during training, do they rate VA benefits?
> 
> Just curious...


 
No VA bennies until after 181 consecutive days of Title 10 (Active Duty) time.  That's why I am semi-happy they lefy my son with his BMT Flight.


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## 0699 (May 25, 2010)

txpj007 said:


> dont know...honestly *not a concern of mine*


 
Mine either, just curious...


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## JimMCpog (May 25, 2010)

car said:


> This isn't entirely new. A neighbor of mine in Monterey about five years ago, an AF E2, was dropped from Japanese for academic reasons. Instead of putting him into an "easier" language or re-classing him to another MOS, the AF discharged him. He was a squared away kid from what I saw, and you don't get to go to DLI if you're a dummy. Didn't make sense to me, but that's prolly why I wasn't in the Air Force.


 
That's an interesting situation, maybe he had undiagnosed ADD?


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## rockclimber (May 26, 2010)

Would someone who had been discharged from the Air Force subsequently have a harder time joining another service?


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## Ranger Psych (May 26, 2010)

SOWT said:


> No VA bennies until after 181 consecutive days of Title 10 (Active Duty) time.  That's why I am semi-happy they lefy my son with his BMT Flight.


 

Unless you're medically discharged.. but that's a whole different story.


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## car (May 26, 2010)

JimMCpog said:


> That's an interesting situation, maybe he had undiagnosed ADD?


 
Or maybe the AF considered his academic failure a breach of contract. Maybe there was a clause in in contract that he missed or just didn't read. Who knows?

I know that on the Army side, we tried to get them some kind of language if we had open seats in in languages that the Army wanted. Barring that, we would look at reclassing them into non-language MI MOSs. My PSGs got very creative and proficient when it came to keeping folks in the Army.


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## madness unseen (Jul 22, 2010)

smalls said:


> :)I was in BALLZ 004 - *...
> 
> One of my buddies from my bmt flight is still in there. *He does fine on every eval except treading water. *Cant keep his head above water and hasnt passed a treading eval since week 2, but he gives everything he's got every single day and never scurves. *Cadre notice that and take that into consideration.
> 
> ...


*

*1st: haha you said scurve. I haven't heard that word since I left the 42nd last October.
2nd: since when did they go back to calling pj wannabes cones? when I was there it was just cct. and do you know what cone stands for? (probably, you were there long enough)
3rd: I was on ballz 6 last year, and this was when they began to be pretty serious about threatening, if not actually doing, discharges for failures. especially if you didn't make it on team to begin with. I got injured pretty quick, so I won't pretend I was on team long, and I never really got to see how much I could take because my body gave out on me. we had 85 out of 95 make it on team, which is pretty outstanding compared to normal. (5 failed the initial past, 5 were injured or quit before trying.) *by day five, I think 40 were left if I remember right. either 6 or 7 graduated indoc, I was gone at that point so besides our Lt's I'm not even positive who. as for a review board, unless it's changed significantly, the commandant was your review board. if your paperwork gets marked "do not reclass" then there is a good chance you can kiss the air force good bye. from what happened while I was there, and what ice heard since, getting discharged isn't most likely, but it has happened.*

on another note, one of my buddies who was in bmt, on team, and subsequently reclassed into the same thing as me, was recently afforded the news that he will most likely be discharged after being in more than a year, thanks to a car accident he was in a couple weeks ago. he was planning on going back to try for CCT, just as I am. that's a discharge that's tough to swallow, because I know the guy well enough to know he is capable of overcoming the setbacks that his current injuries will give him, but he may never get another chance to try now. I was fortunate and my injuries didn't permanently bar me from a return run at the 342. just that I wouldn't be able to be on any team soon.*

I spent 3 months at the 342 on my first go round. I can't wait til it comes time for me to get my shot again.*

I heard the east wing is still closed down, but is there still triple bunking in all the rooms? that started when I was there.*


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