# Let Marines be Marines:  retaining servicemen



## Devildoc (Jan 4, 2018)

Although the article speaks specifically to the Marine Corps and its' problem retaining talent, many of the issues are well-known to all of us.  Probably the biggest reason I got out when I did was because of the increased mandatory social engineering training and decrease of training specific to my job.  While more money is always good, the pay was like 4th on my list of reasons for leaving.

Let Marines Be Marines | U.S. Naval Institute


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 4, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> the pay was like 4th on my list of reasons for leaving.



Agreed.  I absolutely loved the Corps, and being a Marine.  I traveled, deployed to Iraq, and spent nearly my whole enlistment in Okinawa.  (this was during the early 90's and I agree with whomever it was on the forum that described Okinawa as Animal House, every day).

Then Clinton took office.  I watched Staff-NCO's who had planned to make a career out of the Corps be told their services were no longer needed.  The Corps was their life, and with the swipe of a pen, it was over.  Some of them openly cried.  That turned me into a VERY bitter Corporal and I was gone.

Man do I wish a site like that had existed back then, I was living in a bubble and had no other perspective to see.


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## Gunz (Jan 4, 2018)

I got out when I did because of a number of factors. 

1. Lingering injuries that prevented me from maintaining peak infantry performance levels without undue pain.
2. Post-Vietnam racial unrest and drug abuse in the ranks.
3. And too much downtime in garrison.

Reason 3 was the worst...because of boredom. Even when I had pain, I was never happier than when we were out on FXs or deployed or running through training cycles, doing amphib assaults, vertical envelopment exercises or just getting range time. And as a squad leader it was hard for me to keep my guys in line when a good part of their time was spent raking pine needles in the company area or field-daying the squad bay and head for inspections.

Fuck dat. You want stone-cold killers you need to keep them busy with tasks that hone their infantry skills...and if they're not deployed, get them out humping the boonies and plenty of live-fire range time.


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## Devildoc (Jan 4, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> I got out when I did because of a number of factors.
> 
> 1. Lingering injuries that prevented me from maintaining peak infantry performance levels without undue pain.
> 2. Post-Vietnam racial unrest and drug abuse in the ranks.
> ...



Reason 3, that's what the article said:  Marines want to be Marines, and they (presumably the same in every service) want to train for what they do.


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## Grunt (Jan 4, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Reason 3, that's what the article said:  Marines want to be Marines, and they (presumably the same in every service) want to train for what they do.



Yep...there is a reason that we sign a contract stating what it is that we want to do while serving our country.

I enjoy some downtime to play hard after we worked hard. But, we were never so disgruntled as we were when we were left to ourselves to waste time.

A group of grunts WILL find things to do when things get that slow....


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## Gunz (Jan 4, 2018)

They'll find things to do: alcohol, drugs, rat-racing, bar & barracks fights, anything to satisfy the need for the rush.

Bottom line is, the military has to learn to cut down on the petty bullshit, particularly among combat arms units. Use em or lose em.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 5, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Bottom line is, the military has to learn to cut down on the *petty bullshit*, particularly among combat arms units. Use em or lose em.


Sadly, petty bullshit seems to be increasing.  Ugh.


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## Gunz (Jan 5, 2018)

Agoge said:


> A group of grunts WILL find things to do when things get that slow....


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 5, 2018)

Agoge said:


> A group of grunts WILL find things to do when things get that slow....



I may or may not be the guy in the middle!  LOL


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## Devildoc (Jan 5, 2018)

Agoge said:


> A group of grunts WILL find things to do when things get that slow....



...and invariably they find their way to ol' Doc


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## Grunt (Jan 5, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> ...and invariably they find their way to ol' Doc



Isn't that the truth!


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## BloodStripe (Jan 5, 2018)

And yet the Corps wants to do away with the 0351 MOS for more cyber jobs. Here's an idea, and one that many people dont agree with but, make the Marines strictly an infantry force and delegate or task everything else back to the Navy.


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## Devildoc (Jan 5, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> And yet the Corps wants to do away with the 0351 MOS for more cyber jobs. Here's an idea, and one that many people dont agree with but, make the Marines strictly an infantry force and delegate or task everything else back to the Navy.



All the ones I know usually don't get a chance to do their job and get co-opted into other jobs anyway. But I think you have a good point in that a lot of non marine jobs can be deferred elsewhere.


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## Gunz (Jan 5, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I may or may not be the guy in the middle!  LOL
> 
> View attachment 20815




At least you're not in your pirate costume.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 5, 2018)

Sort of fits the theme of this thread: The war on military culture


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## Teufel (Jan 5, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> And yet the Corps wants to do away with the 0351 MOS for more cyber jobs. Here's an idea, and one that many people dont agree with but, make the Marines strictly an infantry force and delegate or task everything else back to the Navy.


This flies solidly in the face of the MAGTF concept. Marines support Marines aside from Navy Corpsman, who are indoctrinated into our cult shortly after receiving orders, and Chaplains. We complain about insufficient support as it is, can you imagine how a non organic unit would treat us? 

An infantry platoon is better served with light anti tank weapons and engineers than 0351s. It’s a good move. 

Cyber is the future and we will see it at the tactical level eventually. We need to build it today though, if we want it tomorrow.


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## BloodStripe (Jan 6, 2018)

And that is why many people dont like the idea of an infantry only force.


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## Teufel (Jan 6, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> And that is why many people dont like the idea of an infantry only force.



Additionally, an all infantry Marine Corps would almost certainly be absorbed into the Army.


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## CDG (Jan 6, 2018)

A rebuttal piece has been posted by Task and Purpose.  I could not disagree more with the authors ridiculous assertions. He essentially tries to paint the entire USMC as sex offenders and out of control maniacs.

The Problem With ‘Let Marines Be Marines’


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 6, 2018)

CDG said:


> A rebuttal piece has been posted by Task and Purpose.  I could not disagree more with the authors ridiculous assertions. He essentially tries to paint the entire USMC as sex offenders and out of control maniacs.
> 
> The Problem With ‘Let Marines Be Marines’


Agree. 

I saw that article earlier and it pissed  me off.


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## Andoni (Jan 6, 2018)

The Problem With ‘Let Marines Be Marines’[/QUOTE]

I am fully supportive of righteous anger about the MU nonsense. That's a sentiment echoed by every single Marine I know. I was at a Marine Transition Course when the MU scandal broke and the reaction was 100% pissed off. 

This author is interpreting the data on sexual assaults wrong and could learn a thing or two about what he's running his mouth about .  

I believe it is irresponsible journalism to draw the false conclusion that the Marine Corps has more repeat sexual assaults then the other branches.  It is widely known at DOD-SAPRO (DOD-Sexual Assault Prevention & Response Office) that the other branches are not reporting the actual number of sexual assaults. 

If there are ten rapes in the Army and ten rapes in the Marines, just because the Army reports 0 rapes doesn't make the Marines super-rapey because they report 7 and step on it for 3. 

So, really, if the author is not supporting eliminating rape in the Marines, what is he really saying? I think he's saying he's doesn't give two shits about sexual assault prevention and response.

 The Marine Corps is doing what it is supposed to do and is being spotlighted as the problem. 

It is dillutes the conversation and shifts the focus from the actual problem and just does not support successfully prosecuting bonafide sexual assault in any of the branches.

Besides that, anadotal as it may be, every Marine I know is vocally against rape in action and word.

Personally, I think the author should focus his enthusiasm for military sexual assault policy  on the equitable delivery of regulations and policies for Male Sexual Assault Response in every branch.


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## BloodStripe (Jan 6, 2018)

Teufel said:


> Additionally, an all infantry Marine Corps would almost certainly be absorbed into the Army.



Perhaps, but if you make the force smaller and specialize in SOC exclusively, to include beach landings, that is the discriminating factor to keep it out.


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## Devildoc (Jan 6, 2018)

CDG said:


> A rebuttal piece has been posted by Task and Purpose.  I could not disagree more with the authors ridiculous assertions. He essentially tries to paint the entire USMC as sex offenders and out of control maniacs.
> 
> The Problem With ‘Let Marines Be Marines’



That was utterly ridiculous, illogical, and I was made dummer for having read it.


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## Teufel (Jan 6, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Perhaps, but if you make the force smaller and specialize in SOC exclusively, to include beach landings, that is the discriminating factor to keep it out.


Who is going to pony up all the support? The Navy isn’t going to create combat logistics battalions for us. Neither will the Army...unless they own the Marine Corps. The Army is also not unfamiliar with amphibious assaults and is creating 6 “SOF lite” Brigades. That’s almost the size of the Marine Corps infantry.


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## AWP (Jan 6, 2018)

Andoni said:


> I believe it is irresponsible journalism to draw the false conclusion that the Marine Corps has more repeat sexual assaults then the other branches.  It is widely known at DOD-SAPRO (DOD-Sexual Assault Prevention & Response Office) that the other branches are not reporting the actual number of sexual assaults.
> 
> If there are ten rapes in the Army and ten rapes in the Marines, just because the Army reports 0 rapes doesn't make the Marines super-rapey because they report 7 and step on it for 3.



ABout 09 or so my shop came to know an USAF SARC/ SAPR whatever they're called. She'd go to weekly meeting/ briefings on Bagram about i and what she'd tell us was ridiculous. Rapes that were reported but covered up, consensual sex in some really strange places, the odd instance of consesual sex that was "rape" when caught, double standards for adultery charges, etc. She could not wait to end her "voluntold" tour and go back to her regular job. "It looks good on my OPR, but is a horrible job."

The culture of dealing with sex crimes in the military can run hot or cold based upon leadership. Everyone who is surprised, take a step forward.


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## Andoni (Jan 6, 2018)

AWP said:


> The culture of dealing with sex crimes in the military can run hot or cold based upon leadership. Everyone who is surprised, take a step forward.



This is totally accurate. What happens after a sexual assault is completely dictated by every eschelon of leadership in the servicemember's chain of command. It is career-ending any way you slice it. 

I have a very subject-specific scope of experience related to the investigation and prosecution in all jurisdictions (civilian/military/installation) of military sexual trauma MST, but specifically sexual assault secondary to abduction and chain of command sexual assault of a subordinate Servicemembers, as well as Drug-Facilitated Sexual Assault. 

I can't stomach the rest of the shit. I couldn't then. I ate the ridiculous cases for breakfast. I had no room for any person, in any circumstance that begins with, "I was fucking in a dumpster" I just can't. 🤣😂


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 6, 2018)

Andoni said:


> This is totally accurate. What happens after a sexual assault is completely dictated by every eschelon of leadership in the servicemember's chain of command.



Reason 58 I did not reenlist, my "leadership" was an absolute joke.  It was 1990, I came back to Okinawa from 2 weeks of leave back in the states and found that one of my best friends (female Marine) had been raped.  She begged all of us (her guys friends) not to do anything (officially or unofficially) because she wanted to make the Corps a career and was terrified that it would not happen if she reported it.

I'd like to tell you that this story ends with a proper ending and "he got his".  That would be a lie.  We did nothing, nothing.  The reasons at the time seemed valid, but it is something I regret to this day.  If there is any upside, she did stay in the Corps and retired a few years ago as a Master Sgt.


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## Andoni (Jan 6, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> The reasons at the time seemed valid, but it is something I regret to this day.  If there is any upside, she did stay in the Corps and retired a few years ago as a Master Sgt.



Yeah. I appreciate and understand that regret about exercising self-control on someone who does not deserve it. Hopefully he lives his life looking over his shoulder, and if he doesn't he probably should. I mean, rapists often forget that nobody else ever forgets. That shit is dismantling to a team, morale and squad and platoon mission-readiness.

For what it's worth- that resolution for your Friend- staying in and retiring as a Master Sgt- that is the best, most outstanding outcome that exists. I never saw it occur and genuinely wished I had. It's good to hear that it did. The likelihood that she would have been able to continue her career AND have the assailant show up deceased with a broken beer bottle shoved up his ass is unlikely.  It is great to hear she retired.


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## Gunz (Jan 7, 2018)

CDG said:


> A rebuttal piece has been posted by Task and Purpose.  I could not disagree more with the authors ridiculous assertions. He essentially tries to paint the entire USMC as sex offenders and out of control maniacs.
> 
> The Problem With ‘Let Marines Be Marines’



Hate for the article and the author, not you Bro. The first comment beneath the article is spot on. I don't know Jared Keller's military experience, if any, but he sounds like a wanker.


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## Andoni (Jan 7, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> I don't know Jared Keller's military experience, if any, but he sounds like a wanker.



He sounds like a total wanker.


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## BloodStripe (Jan 7, 2018)

Jared Keller, fired for plagiarism, still writing

I don't know, but he's been fired before due to plagerism.


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## Andoni (Jan 7, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Jared Keller, fired for plagiarism, still writing
> 
> I don't know, but he's been fired before due to plagerism.


What a douchebag. Fuck him.


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## Gunz (Jan 7, 2018)

A wanker.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 7, 2018)

You know who else has loads of training on stupid shit, online and otherwise?

Every fucking large corporation in America. 

Grow up dudes, everyone hates that shit but the only place you can go and not have that is back in the block or starting your own business. You want to get out and make bank? Welcome to EO training, and inherent bias training, sexual harassment shit, and all the IT stuff.


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## Devildoc (Jan 7, 2018)

TLDR20 said:


> You know who else has loads of training on stupid shit, online and otherwise?
> 
> Every fucking large corporation in America.
> 
> Grow up dudes, everyone hates that shit but the only place you can go and not have that is back in the block or starting your own business. You want to get out and make bank? Welcome to EO training, and inherent bias training, sexual harassment shit, and all the IT stuff.



True enough, but I don't know how your hospital does it, my hospital, we do it once a year. We don't have some sort of weird mandatory Safety Stand Down once a month for some of this bullshit training.  But the military has become risk-averse over the past few years, and to leadership these things are as important if not more important than actual job skills training or being in the field.

Although the article is about retaining Marines, it's true for all the branches. Why do people leave? It's not all about the money, because if it was people would stay for all the bonuses. People are leaving, they can't backfill fast enough, they can't recruit fast enough. Why are they leaving? Because the military has turned into corporatetown USA.  

It's not about being grown up, it's about addressing the issues with article, which is retention and why people leave. This is why people leave. But you're absolutely right it is no better and often worse in the corporate world.


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## AWP (Jan 7, 2018)

When I left Merrill Lynch for Lockheed, we had the exact same CBTs minus a few words here and there. Same actors/ actresses, dialogue, etc. Just accept that CBT's and the like are your lot in life unless you have a job outside of corporate America.


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## CDG (Jan 7, 2018)

TLDR20 said:


> You know who else has loads of training on stupid shit, online and otherwise?
> 
> Every fucking large corporation in America.
> 
> Grow up dudes, everyone hates that shit but the only place you can go and not have that is back in the block or starting your own business. You want to get out and make bank? Welcome to EO training, and inherent bias training, sexual harassment shit, and all the IT stuff.



Corporate America's job isn't to close with and destroy the nations enemies either. Every fucking large corporation in America has a fairly different charter than the USMC.


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## DocIllinois (Jan 7, 2018)

The job of my business has a specific purpose but I still run sexual harrassment training and the like. 

 It mitigates potential liability within the business, which may be a consideration for commands within the military as well.  I could be wrong about that.


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## SpitfireV (Jan 7, 2018)

CDG said:


> Corporate America's job isn't to close with and destroy the nations enemies either.



Wellllllllllllll....


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## TLDR20 (Jan 7, 2018)

CDG said:


> Corporate America's job isn't to close with and destroy the nations enemies either. Every fucking large corporation in America has a fairly different charter than the USMC.



And they do that 24/7 365? 

Gimme a fucking break bro. More Marines have jobs aligned with corporate life than they do with slitting Ahkbars throat.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jan 7, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> Wellllllllllllll....





TLDR20 said:


> And they do that 24/7 365?
> 
> Gimme a fucking break bro. More Marines have jobs aligned with corporate life than they do with slitting Ahkbars throat.


I dunno. Corporate America is routinely raped by Chinese hackers in the intellectual property rights area, they ain't economically closing with or destroying anything at the moment. Maybe 'Corporate America' should focus on not getting their trade secrets stolen instead of all the safety brief shenanigans.

I'm not a Marine, but these excerpts from 'Let Marines Be Marines' made the most sense in terms of cutting back on powerpoint ranger presentations and mandatory online training. The problem mentioned below is systemic across all branches and I'm glad someone is bringing attention to the toxic culture that has been allowed to permeate the services, in this case the Marine Corps.



> "The military must cut waste, eliminate unnecessary paperwork and training that do not improve lethality, and provide additional funding for training (such as flight hours) to hone the warfighters’ combat edge. Marine leaders currently are focused on the wrong things. They need to cut back on Marine Net courses, transgender awareness training, mandatory safety stand downs, sexual assault prevention training, and other unnecessary activities that detract from operations. The Marine Corps must focus more on recruiting individuals who have the moral character to do the right thing—rather than accepting people who have broken moral compasses who require constant supervision and morality training...
> 
> The retention deficit is a major problem for the future security of the country and for filling the ranks of the Marine Corps. It is a result of low job satisfaction created by false perceptions of service, cumulative operational fatigue, and too much time spent on tasks not related to combat skills. The flight of talent directly impacts operational readiness, safety, and combat effectiveness..."


edit: meant that powerpoint reliance is toxic


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## CDG (Jan 7, 2018)

TLDR20 said:


> And they do that 24/7 365?
> 
> Gimme a fucking break bro. More Marines have jobs aligned with corporate life than they do with slitting Ahkbars throat.



No, they of course do not actively engage in combat 24/7/365.  The point is that the fucking overall mission is much, much different, bro.  Aligned with and samesies are two different things.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 7, 2018)

CDG said:


> No, they of course do not actively engage in combat 24/7/365.  The point is that the fucking overall mission is much, much different, bro.  Aligned with and samesies are two different things.



I get that. I also get that doing these trainings is lame as fuck. I did them the same as the next guy. But, they have to be done, or else when some private fucks up someone will blame his leadership, and to be honest, if he hadn’t been trained it would be a fair assessment of blame in the military system. We say here regularly that a leader is responsible for everything that goes on under their watch. So what military leader wouldn’t want their folks getting this mandatory training ?

Killing people is the mission. That mission is best completed by putting the right people in the right place at the right time. If people are having complaints filed, getting DUI’s, beating their wives, or having their computers hacked they aren’t in the right situation to kill badguys...


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## Grunt (Jan 7, 2018)

Power Points and their respective courses are the apex of embracing the suck! It's as bad as what we deal with on a mission, minus getting shot at, but it's the suck nonetheless. 

In reality, there are people that slip through the cracks in every branch and MOS. No one likes them, but they are there and no service in particular is worse than the other. The problem is...they aren't dealt with consistently across the board. Until then, this will go on....


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## TLDR20 (Jan 7, 2018)

@CDG you posted this in another thread but think about it from a SM perspective.



CDG said:


> Lol.  If drugs, DUIs, domestice abuse, child abuse, weapons charges, and whatever else I am forgetting don't keep players out, then a coach certainly isn't going to be banned for coaching questionable tactics.



All the things you applied to NFL players sure as fuck are done in large members by SM’s. That is with the classes, that is with the threat of UCMJ. Now you want to take a bunch of killers and not constantly remind them how to behave the 99% of the time they aren’t in combat?

My last gripe on this subject is this: if you got out because of PowerPoints and bullshit classes, you were gettting out anyways. The guys that are going to stay are going to stay. Shit I know in certain units apart from a few mandatory sit in class things, the junior guy is given everyone’s CaC and told to do their training for everyone else. Right or wrong, that is reality. Guys get out for the same reasons they have been getting out since GEorge Washington was a team leader. It’s always better in the other side...


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 7, 2018)

TLDR20 said:


> Shit I know in certain units apart from a few mandatory sit in class things, the junior guy is given everyone’s CaC and told to do their training for everyone else



A close reenactment?


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## Frank S. (Jan 7, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I may or may not be the guy in the middle!  LOL
> 
> View attachment 20815


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## Gunz (Jan 7, 2018)

TLDR20 said:


> You know who else has loads of training on stupid shit, online and otherwise?
> 
> Every fucking large corporation in America.
> 
> Grow up dudes, everyone hates that shit but the only place you can go and not have that is back in the block or starting your own business. You want to get out and make bank? Welcome to EO training, and inherent bias training, sexual harassment shit, and all the IT stuff.




I haven't had much sensitivity training. I remember one sexual
harassment seminar in 13 years at my last corporate gig. And the only ones in the service BITD were DoD-produced movies about the dangers of VD. Which nobody paid much attention to.

The biggest problem then was the amount of downtime, mindless busy-work, or too many white-glove barracks inspections for Marine rifle companies, most of which had fair proportions of combat veterans who were trying to adjust to garrison life. I am convinced if we had been kept far more active training and maintaining skills germane to our MOSs, more of us would have chosen to stay in, morale and discipline would've improved, there would've been fewer issues related to alcohol and drug abuse.

Too many combat-veteran infantry NCOs, Corporals and Sgts were leaving the Corps because they lacked a sense of purpose, they were dulled by the monotony of barracks life. I don't know what it's like in the post-GWOT Army and Marine infantry, but according to the original article, boredom is still a contributing factor of Marine attrition.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 7, 2018)

I've been called a cunt by Pardus and now this by @Frank S. 
Good times!


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## Grunt (Jan 7, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I've been called a cunt by Pardus and now this by @Frank S.
> Good times!



Embrace it, Brother! It's good training....


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## Gunz (Jan 7, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I've been called a cunt by Pardus and now this by @Frank S.
> Good times!



That's baby stuff. I was "bukkakied with hate."


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 7, 2018)

Another haven't served agenda idiot writing for T&P, what's new?


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 7, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Another haven't served agenda idiot writing for T&P, what's new?



1:  I don't know anything about Keller or if he's an idiot.  First hand knowledge, or just an opinion?

2:  I disagree with your assertion that because he has not served, he cannot have an opinion about the military.  See also the NFL thread, unless I missed someone, none of us have played pro-football, but we sure talk in that thread like we know what's going on much more than the men playing and coaching.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 7, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> 1:  I don't know anything about Keller or if he's an idiot.  First hand knowledge, or just an opinion?
> 
> 2:  I disagree with your assertion that because he has not served, he cannot have an opinion about the military.  See also the NFL thread, unless I missed someone, none of us have played pro-football, but we sure talk in that thread like we know what's going on much more than the men playing and coaching.



I remember when T&P came out it was sort of cool, everyone I knew from School in the Army and Leading troops was reposting their articles on Facebook.  And then the liberal slant came out into the forefront when it massively grew and wasn't employing a mainly veteran editorial staff.  I think for this sort of publication, it should be so.  Here's Keller's CV https://www.linkedin.com/in/jaredbkeller/

T&P was the For Servicemen By Servicemen of Journalism when it came out.  And it wasn't really journalism now that I recall but a lot of lists.

As far as Keller being an idiot:


NavyBuyer said:


> Jared Keller, fired for plagiarism, still writing
> 
> I don't know, but he's been fired before due to plagerism.


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## Devildoc (Jan 8, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> 1:  I don't know anything about Keller or if he's an idiot.  First hand knowledge, or just an opinion?
> 
> 2:  I disagree with your assertion that because he has not served, he cannot have an opinion about the military.  See also the NFL thread, unless I missed someone, none of us have played pro-football, but we sure talk in that thread like we know what's going on much more than the men playing and coaching.



Since 99% of the population have not served, 99% of writers writing about the military never served.  I am OK with that; I am not OK with opinion pieces that don't articulate the basis for an opinion.  Have an opinion?  Fine.  Tell me why.  Don't rehash every bad article and use that as a source.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 8, 2018)

It became more overt during the presidential campaign, but T&P has always had a very liberal focus.  It's owner, Zach Ischol, is a former MARSOC Marine and a bigtime Hillary Clinton supporter.  He's also a really good dude and a savvy businessman who does a lot of good work for the community.  I met him in person once and we're friends on Facebook.  I disagree strongly with T&P's  political leanings and think some of their opinion pieces are utter garbage, but I think that of most media outlets.  IMO, T&P is a net good for the Veteran Community.

I personally would not have hired Keller given his background, which I didn't know about until I read the above link.  That said, I usually don't care if people from outside the military have an opinion about the military or some of the things we do.  I have an opinion on feminism and I'm not a woman.  I have an opinion about race relations in the US and I'm not a minority.  I have an opinion on Israel/Palestine, and I'm neither Israeli nor Palestinian, nor Jewish nor Muslim.  No one's ever going to tell me my opinion is invalid simply because I'm "not" something.  That doesn't keep me from responding strongly when people attack the military or when they say dumb things about it, but I don't care that people from outside my profession have an opinion about my profession.

Outside critiques can often be better than internal ones, because outsiders may be less biased in favor of the organization.   If people want to write things about us, fine.  We have plenty of voices who can counter their unwarranted criticism.  I'll also add that criticism from the inside, particularly when it's incomplete, ill-informed, or in pursuit of a personal agenda, can be far more damaging than that of an outsider, because people impart it with more credibility because it comes from someone who wears, or who wore, the uniform.  I get far more annoyed when I read poorly written, ill-informed, politically-driven drivel from a member of our community that I do from an outsider.  For one thing, people tend to believe them, no matter what is being said.  For another, I have a higher expectation of my fellow vets.

I know I've posted it here several times before, but given the last few pages of this thread it bears repeating:  Lying to Ourselves Lying to Ourselves: Dishonesty in the Army Profession


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## AWP (Jan 8, 2018)

We can hate CBT's, but they serve a number of legal and CYA functions. If you get out and go to Corporate America, become a gov't employee elsewhere, contract with the military, etc, then you'll see CBT's and worthless PP briefings again and again. Anyone who thinks the volume of briefings and CBT's will decrease once they are out is delusional.

Guys get out because (among other things) reality does not meet expectations. If a CBT is his/ her reason, I wouldn't want them around. A CBT shouldn't mentally break a person.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 8, 2018)

AWP said:


> We can hate CBT's, but they serve a number of legal and CYA functions. If you get out and go to Corporate America, become a gov't employee elsewhere, contract with the military, etc, then you'll see CBT's and worthless PP briefings again and again. Anyone who thinks the volume of briefings and CBT's will decrease once they are out is delusional.
> 
> Guys get out because (among other things) reality does not meet expectations. If a CBT is his/ her reason, I wouldn't want them around. A CBT shouldn't mentally break a person.



Yeah. Totally agree.


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## Devildoc (Jan 8, 2018)

AWP said:


> We can hate CBT's, but they serve a number of legal and CYA functions. If you get out and go to Corporate America, become a gov't employee elsewhere, contract with the military, etc, then you'll see CBT's and worthless PP briefings again and again. Anyone who thinks the volume of briefings and CBT's will decrease once they are out is delusional.
> 
> Guys get out because (among other things) reality does not meet expectations. If a CBT is his/ her reason, I wouldn't want them around. A CBT shouldn't mentally break a person.



First, I would say I don't think it's about mentally breaking a person.  I think you're right though about being disillusioned/reality not meeting expectations. People join the military, all branches, for a variety of reasons. I am sure doing computer-based training and sexual harassment training is on nobody's top 10 list.  It is what it is. People leave other jobs for a lesser reasons. I don't care if they want to leave the military because they hate doing those.

But that article is about so much more than just that. Piss poor leadership, not having the tools to do your job, taking away training hours you should spend doing your job to do something else, the list goes on.  

So the article is also about what does it take to retain people? Clearly it's not money because Uncle Sugar offers more money and bonuses than any corporate entity I'm aware of, especially for the age of its employees.


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## Raksasa Kotor (Jan 8, 2018)

I wonder if the people that produce CBT's have to do CBT's...


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## CDG (Jan 8, 2018)

Raksasa Kotor said:


> I wonder if the people that produce CBT's have to do CBT's...


How else do you learn how to produce them?


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## AWP (Jan 9, 2018)

If you're producing CBT's the Kool Aid is sweeter than ever. I'll bet IA cops have more friends than CBT producers.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 10, 2018)

Teufel said:


> An infantry platoon is better served with light anti tank weapons and engineers than 0351s. It’s a good move.



Max says goodbye to his former MOS:
Terminal Lance "Assault Up"
_"They say it’s because they don’t need an entire MOS to shoot rockets… But I suspect they just don’t want some other pissed off 0351 Lance Corporal starting the next Terminal Lance."_


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## Gunz (Jan 10, 2018)

I don't remember 0351s being that essential back in my war. In fact most ended up acting as 11s.


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## TacoTraplord (Jan 15, 2018)

I wanted to stay in but sadly the Marine Corps doesn't look kindly on injuries that take more than a couple days to heal.


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