# Put away those phones, Marines!



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 10, 2016)

Get some General!  So many moments in this article to highlight, a few:

General: Marines, put down those cell phones! - CNNPolitics.com

US Marines need to put away their cell phones, forget about their fancy coffees and get back to doing what Marines used to do -- dig a foxhole, cover up, stay quiet and be wary, the Corps' top officer says.

"I know that sounds silly, but it's not silly," Neller said at the conference. "So, okay, Marines: We're going to go to the field for 30 days; everybody leave your phone in the car and tell your significant other or your mom, your aunt, your uncle, that you're not going to get 75 texts each day and answer them."

Seaman Hicks decided she wanted to check her Facebook page, and so she walked out on the weather deck at night with her phone, and what's that phone got? It's got GPS. So anybody in the world is going to know there's some GPS somewhere out floating across the ocean, most probably on a ship," Neller said.

"When was the last time ... when you saw Marines or soldiers operating in Iraq or Afghanistan when they camouflaged their face or they broke up the outline of their helmet with camouflage so they couldn't be seen? When was the last time you saw that?" he asked.

"We have not lived off the land," Neller said. "We've been eating in chow halls and drinking green bean coffee. That's pretty nice."


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## DocIllinois (Aug 11, 2016)

_"The Navy has come up with plans to reduce its reliance on modern electronics to make its force harder to trace, going so far as to have sailors re-learn navigating by the stars instead of using the Global Positioning System, (Neller) said."_

'Going so far'?  We teach our local Boy Scout troop this technique but its fallen out of favor with the U.S. Navy?  :-/


_"And you've got to be careful to not make any noise, and you're going to try to have absolutely no signature. Because if you can be seen, you will be attacked. That's the difference, and that's where we've got to get."_

As part of Infantry OPFOR at a recent JRTC rotation, my detachment had huge success in attacking fixed positions and convoys at night because at least a couple of people would be using their fucking cell phones at any given time.

PSA for anyone fighting an enemy who may have night vision capability - the following exemplifies your level of visibility in the field when there's anything happening on your cell phone screen:


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 11, 2016)

@DocIllinois - that pics reminds me of a night training we had in Okinawa.  The instructor was demonstrating how the red tip of a cigarette could be seen at long distances and how easily noise traveled - we were _X_ yards away and he told us to "listen close"...then we heard the distant buzzing of a vibrator.  I remember we laughing very hard at that.    We had female Marines with us in that training, I recall their reaction was to also laugh, or groan in mock disgust.  Likely that would not be the reaction in today's Corps.  That bums me out a bit...there is no room for humor anymore.


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## Marine0311 (Aug 11, 2016)

I agree. Be brilliant at the basics.


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## Devildoc (Aug 11, 2016)

I have to laugh.  At my last unit as a corpsman, a FSSG unit, one time we went to the field, I think it was the last time I went to the field with that unit before I got commissioned.  After setting up we had 30 minutes or so before chow, everyone scattered to the winds looking for a signal.  Some guys climbed trees.  When we practiced land nav one patrol got lost.  A Marine whipped out his phone, downloaded some app, did a GPS fix, and led them out.


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## Gunz (Aug 11, 2016)

The general is spot on. A reflection of moonlight, a noise, an odor...the slightest thing can compromise your position. Why help your enemy?

When we bathed in rivers we didn't use soap. Soap bubbles or residue can float downstream. It's those little things that can come back and kill you.


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## Teufel (Aug 11, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> The general is spot on. A reflection of moonlight, a noise, an odor...the slightest thing can compromise your position. Why help your enemy?
> 
> When we bathed in rivers we didn't use soap. Soap bubbles or residue can float downstream. It's those little things that can come back and kill you.



I understand what he is saying but he is not describing patrol exercises.  Those are always done without any cell phones.  I think he is talking about the major exercises that last 14-30 days like Desert Scimitar and ITX.  The grunts won't have any cell phones while they are assaulting through the quackenbush training area in 29 Palms but it's normally ok if they get on there when they get back to Camp Wilson during ITX.


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## Gunz (Aug 11, 2016)

Yes sir I only meant that field exercises should require the same practices and procedures as the real thing.


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## SpitfireV (Aug 11, 2016)

I remember reading a thing about the French Foreign Legion and they would make many little fires and one or two big bonfires when doing stuff out in Africa. The reasoning I think was for one to keep animals away and two to let everyone in the area know they were there. I would hope this was just the bigger sized units!


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## pardus (Aug 11, 2016)




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## SpitfireV (Aug 11, 2016)

Point taken LOL.


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## Marine0311 (Aug 11, 2016)

Teufel said:


> I understand what he is saying but he is not describing patrol exercises.  Those are always done without any cell phones.  I think he is talking about the major exercises that last 14-30 days like Desert Scimitar and ITX.  The grunts won't have any cell phones while they are assaulting through the quackenbush training area in 29 Palms but it's normally ok if they get on there when they get back to Camp Wilson during ITX.



No cell phones at all IMO.  I didn't. It's poor form and p iss poor practice. Train how you will fight.


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## Teufel (Aug 11, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> No cell phones at all IMO.  I didn't. It's poor form and p iss poor practice. Train how you will fight.



Marines have always had cell phones at Camp Wilson.  Everyone has always considered Camp Wilson "the rear".  They have internet cafes, a PX, a cafeteria that serves chicken strips and burgers, a rice king, some mexican place... why not cell phones.


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## Brill (Aug 12, 2016)

Teufel said:


> I understand what he is saying but he is not describing patrol exercises.  Those are always done without any cell phones.  I think he is talking about the major exercises that last 14-30 days like Desert Scimitar and ITX.  The grunts won't have any cell phones while they are assaulting through the quackenbush training area in 29 Palms but it's normally ok if they get on there when they get back to Camp Wilson during ITX.



How do they update their FB status or stream via Periscope?


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## Marine0311 (Aug 12, 2016)

Teufel said:


> Marines have always had cell phones at Camp Wilson.  Everyone has always considered Camp Wilson "the rear".  They have internet cafes, a PX, a cafeteria that serves chicken strips and burgers, a rice king, some mexican place... why not cell phones.



I am familiar with Wilson and I disagree with it then as I do now.  I don't recall cell phones when I was there. To me at Wilson that was time to practice, prepare, clean weapons, etc.


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## Gunz (Aug 12, 2016)

There are cases where tactical comm has broken down and people who find themselves up shit alley have had to use the phone to call their TOC. Having been dependent for life support on a PRC25 , I can see where a backup comm loop could save lives. But other than that I'm very leery of personal electronics, social media etc for security reasons. And not just for the military, for everybody. The more you send out the more vulnerable you are. And moreso if we ever mix it up with a technically proficient enemy.

It doesn't hurt to get used to doing things the old fashioned way, just in case. (I think we broached a similar topic with regard to GPS vice compass and map skills.)


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## Teufel (Aug 12, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> I am familiar with Wilson and I disagree with it then as I do now.  I don't recall cell phones when I was there. To me at Wilson that was time to practice, prepare, clean weapons, etc.



The nice thing about Camp Wilson is that there is only one patch of cell phone reception (one bar) out there and it's the size of a elevator.  Go out at night there and look for the platoon of Marines on their phones in a football huddle.


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## AWP (Aug 12, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> To me at Wilson that was time to practice, prepare, clean weapons, etc.



Given that, if they are on their cell phones instead of doing their jobs, that's a failure of leadership. Poor discipline is as much on the leader as the led. Using cellphones in Fobbit Town is a nonevent, even downrange. If Snuffy is gaffing off his responsibilities then his NCO needs to handle NCO business. Team and Squad Leaders exist for a reason.


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## Gunz (Aug 12, 2016)

Teufel said:


> The nice thing about Camp Wilson is that there is only one patch of cell phone reception (one bar) out there and it's the size of a elevator.  Go out at night there and look for the platoon of Marines on their phones in a football huddle.



The New Corps. No windows. 



The Old Corps. Windows.


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## Marine0311 (Aug 12, 2016)

Teufel said:


> The nice thing about Camp Wilson is that there is only one patch of cell phone reception (one bar) out there and it's the size of a elevator.  Go out at night there and look for the platoon of Marines on their phones in a football huddle.





Freefalling said:


> Given that, if they are on their cell phones instead of doing their jobs, that's a failure of leadership. Poor discipline is as much on the leader as the led. Using cellphones in Fobbit Town is a nonevent, even downrange. If Snuffy is gaffing off his responsibilities then his NCO needs to handle NCO business. Team and Squad Leaders exist for a reason.



Freefaling said it better than me.


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## CDG (Aug 12, 2016)

It's always a balancing act. We need to know how to use the newest technology, but we also need to know the basics to a degree sufficient to employ them if needed. The biggest problem is lack of compromise. Older guys typically won't use anything new and say things like, "Well I never had that, so we don't need it." That attitude is bullshit and prohibits us from using technology to our advantage when applicable and tactically appropriate. Conversely, too many newer guys only want to learn the technology and scoff at the basics. That attitude is also bullshit and can lead to mission failure when the high tech piece of kit takes a bullet/shrapnel, overheats, batteries die, it gets forgotten back at the FOB, or it malfunctions. 

As with many things, balance is key. Mindsets have to evolve along with kit and TTPs.


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## AWP (Aug 12, 2016)

CDG said:


> It's always a balancing act.
> 
> As with many things, balance is key. Mindsets have to evolve along with kit and TTPs.



Your pragmatic attitude has no place in today's military. Next you'll want to ban reflective belts and Salsa Night.


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## Teufel (Aug 13, 2016)

Here is my position.  It's easy to say, "You Marines are weak!  We used to be harder back in the day when we went into the field for 60 days and didn't talk to our families!"  I was there.  Marines used to line up Disneyland style to talk to their loved ones on pay phones after getting out of the field.  Remember those days?  We had cell phones but they were the size of F150s.  That's not reality today.  It's easy to justify keeping cell phones off the live fire range, patrol and tactical exercise.  I honestly don't see why I should tell a Marine he isn't allowed to talk to his family when he is back in the rear, off duty and on his own time.  I don't think that's my business.  That's what I have the Sergeant Major, Company Commanders, Company 1st Sergeant, Company Gunny, Platoon Commanders, Platoon Sergeants, Squad Leaders, and Team Leaders for.  Guess what?  Let's say we outlaw all cell phones in the field.  Guess what you will see?  I'm not a fortune teller but I suspect you will see a lot of E8/E9s and field grade officers on their phones "taking care of business" while a lot of NCOs look on getting massively disgruntled.  There is a time and place for just about everything and that's what we have NCOs for.  Pass guidance and let the troops sort it out.


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## Marauder06 (Aug 14, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Your pragmatic attitude has no place in today's military. Next you'll want to ban reflective belts and Salsa Night.



The Bagram is strong in this one.


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## Marine0311 (Aug 14, 2016)

Teufel said:


> Here is my position.  It's easy to say, "You Marines are weak!  We used to be harder back in the day when we went into the field for 60 days and didn't talk to our families!"  I was there.  Marines used to line up Disneyland style to talk to their loved ones on pay phones after getting out of the field.  Remember those days?  We had cell phones but they were the size of F150s.  That's not reality today.  It's easy to justify keeping cell phones off the live fire range, patrol and tactical exercise.  I honestly don't see why I should tell a Marine he isn't allowed to talk to his family when he is back in the rear, off duty and on his own time.  I don't think that's my business.  That's what I have the Sergeant Major, Company Commanders, Company 1st Sergeant, Company Gunny, Platoon Commanders, Platoon Sergeants, Squad Leaders, and Team Leaders for.  Guess what?  Let's say we outlaw all cell phones in the field.  Guess what you will see?  I'm not a fortune teller but I suspect you will see a lot of E8/E9s and field grade officers on their phones "taking care of business" while a lot of NCOs look on getting massively disgruntled.  There is a time and place for just about everything and that's what we have NCOs for.  Pass guidance and let the troops sort it out.



I still disagree with phones at Camp Wilson or any Camp Wilson- like place.


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## 104TN (Aug 14, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> I still disagree with phones at Camp Wilson or any Camp Wilson- like place.



Folks spend enough time separated from their families. I get "train like you fight", but nobody is training combat life saving skills by shooting Joe/Gomer in the chest. I think removing the ability for families to communicate while stateside creates unnecessary stress that's probably more detrimental to readiness than allowing the occasional FaceTime to the Mr/Mrs/Kids when it doesn't matter.


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## WhiskeyMike (Aug 19, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> No cell phones at all IMO.  I didn't. It's poor form and p iss poor practice. Train how you will fight.


Some buddies of mine got back from Iraq a few months ago and they had their phones and got on Facebook and whatnot when they had down time. Not while on patrol or standing post, but I don't think it's a huge deal if Marines have their phones when they aren't bivouacking or pulling security in a fighting hole or on a patrol. In training or in country. That's just my personal opinion.


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## Marine0311 (Aug 19, 2016)

WhiskeyMike said:


> Some buddies of mine got back from Iraq a few months ago and they had their phones and got on Facebook and whatnot when they had down time. Not while on patrol or standing post, but I don't think it's a huge deal if Marines have their phones when they aren't bivouacking or pulling security in a fighting hole or on a patrol. In training or in country. That's just my personal opinion.



I disagree.


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## WhiskeyMike (Aug 19, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> I disagree.


I accept that.


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## Marine0311 (Aug 19, 2016)

WhiskeyMike said:


> I accept that.



I'll think of a longer answer later.


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## WhiskeyMike (Aug 19, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> I'll think of a longer answer later.


Yut


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## Marine0311 (Aug 20, 2016)

WhiskeyMike said:


> Yut



When I trained that's how it was and that's how I think it should be. When I was in the sand box I wrote letters. I wasn't at a FOB or anything so I don't know about being able to email or FaceTime. I could see Marines doing that only if it was available to all and organized. Otherwise I just don't agree with bringing your phones to Iraq on a FOB. I just can't see it. I am sure there are security reasons too (your phone being hacked, radio signal being used to set off a IED)


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## AWP (Aug 20, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> When I trained that's how it was and that's how I think it should be. When I was in the sand box I wrote letters. I wasn't at a FOB or anything so I don't know about being able to email or FaceTime. I could Marines doing that only if it was available to all and organized. Otherwise I just don't agree with bringing your phones to Iraq on a FOB. I just can't see it. I am sure there are security reasons too (your phone being hacked, radio signal being used to set off a IED)



We've also been at war for over a decade and Camp Wilson as described earlier is Bagram/J-bad/ Kandahar/ every other huge base in Afghanistan (and I'll guess Iraq was the same). Going out on patrol with a smartphone? That's on leadership and PCI's. I can't see them out at a COP or something, but Roshan cellphones (which were KNOWN to be monitored by the Taliban) were used every damn where by everyone, including General Officers.

Your argument is literally counter to every service's policies and actions since 2008 at the latest. I understand your points, but reality is the exact opposite for nearly a decade now, at all levels of all services.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Aug 20, 2016)

I put a cell phone in the PACE-H plan if the environment supports it....


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