# Linda Norgrove rescue botched, SF/SEALs blamed



## phridum (Oct 12, 2010)

http://kitup.military.com/2010/10/it-wasnt-sf-that-botched-the-norgrove-rescue.html
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...ecial-forces-helmet-camera.html#ixzz129VlR3VK

Curious why we haven't had any discussion about this operation, aside from the obvious OpSec issues. At first it was a blanket "special forces" label that made it seem like the Army screwed it up, but as information is revealed, it seems that SEALs performed the operation.

Of course, we can never expect the media to be as accurate as they should be. They simply aren't educated enough about the topic of tactics and equipment. Consider the photo in the British article of the soldier wearing  a "helmet mounted camera" in which I only see a strobe and NVG mount.

I never carried frags and bangers at the same time, so I can't speak on the possibility of accidentally grabbing the wrong one, but they aren't exactly so similar this would be easy. Do we dare speculate what possible things could have happened?


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## TheSiatonist (Oct 12, 2010)

RIP, Linda Norgrove.



> Yet members of the SAS, who were on standby for the operation, were understood to have had deep reservations about the rescue plan, fearing that the use of helicopters would simply have alerted the insurgents.



Based on the narrative on the graphic, I had similar thoughts also regarding the helo. But then, I am not military nor SOF.

My hat's off to the guys who went in and tried to rescue her.


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## dknob (Oct 12, 2010)

It sucks this happened, I'm sure the bad guys were hunkered down and firing from inside the building they naded. The unit choice has me confused, this is a British citizen, the SAS is in the area, but they went with Six over them and our other guys? Idk. Shit this sucks...


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## Gypsy (Oct 12, 2010)

RIP, Ma'am.  I'm sure these men did their best to rescue you.


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## Laxmom723 (Oct 12, 2010)

I'm just a Navy Mom, but whoever did the rescue attempt, I'm sure did their best.

If anyone screwed up and threw the wrong item, wouldn't we say in general, Murphy was along for the ride? Or the best plans don't survive the fog of war? 

We never hear of all the successes, nor do we need to... but I'm sure this will be dissected in minute detail by those who need to do so, for future successes. 

Prayers out for the men involved, that they know we appreciate, that they have our backs, 24/7/365.

And rest in peace Ms Norgrove.


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## Chopstick (Oct 12, 2010)

One day you're sniping off Somali pirates, the next day you're in the dog house.  Im sure they put forth their best efforts.


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## The91Bravo (Oct 12, 2010)

It is very unfortunate that Ms Norgrove was killed, but I hope it can be determined that the frag was from the bad guys and not our guys.  Prayers out to the families and warriors involved.  With great responsibility comes great risk, and I also am sure they did their absolute best.


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## Scotth (Oct 12, 2010)

Nothing really to discuss in my eyes. It was a hostage rescue that had an unfortunate ending. It doesn't matter to me who threw the grenade when the mission was reported, the hostage is dead and who threw it doesn't change the final outcome.

I have all the confidence in the world those guys gave there best effort to get that women out alive. They put there asses on the line to help her. I wasn't there and the news reports are never going to fully recount what was happening in real time so how do I judge what was right or wrong. I'm sure they will have a very detailed AAR in the mission debrief and the pros can decide what the lessons learned from this rescue attempt should be and how they can be applied in future operations.


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## Mac_NZ (Oct 12, 2010)

What the fuck was she doing in the Korengal!  The wake up call to leave should have been her friend getting waxed not long before hand.  Dumb ass aid workers that think you can rock into a war zone with good intentions and a smile and no one will get it in their head to fuck your shit up.


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## AWP (Oct 12, 2010)

I can think of a few plausible reasons why this woman accidentally took a grenade and lost her life, to include the fact that she was, I don't know....surrounded by bad guys. 

"We" (the Western population) have this Hollywood-esque view of black clad, pseudo-ninjas creeping into a room in the dead of night only to blow in the doors with enough pyro strong enough to destroy a tank yet made for a woman (her skin to withstand at least) and that view has raised our collective expectations to almost unreasonable levels. Numerous helos, 160+ guys on our side alone, a 30 minute firefight, compounds with no rhyme or reason to their shape or layout and no blueprints to consult....

You hate to brush aside the death of an innocent with a "shit happens" and a shrug, but sometimes the painful truth is that the good guys, no matter how well trained, equipped, and prepared, will sometimes simply lose a battle and fail to slay the dragon in time.

Blue Skies. My condolences to Ms. Norgrove's family and to those who tried to rescue her.


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## The91Bravo (Oct 12, 2010)

Freefalling said:


> Your post....



Very well said...


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## Trip_Wire (Oct 12, 2010)

I agree! Very well said Freefalling.


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## pardus (Oct 12, 2010)

Mac_NZ said:


> What the fuck was she doing in the Korengal!  The wake up call to leave should have been her friend getting waxed not long before hand.  Dumb ass aid workers that think you can rock into a war zone with good intentions and a smile and no one will get it in their head to fuck your shit up.


 
Indeed!  She had no right being there. Big boys rules.

This I am very interested in...



> Yet members of the SAS, who were on standby for the operation, were understood to have had deep reservations about the rescue plan, fearing that the use of helicopters would simply have alerted the insurgents.



Jobs get fucked up just because they do sometimes but people also fuck up, I will be very interested to see what comes out of this.


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## HOLLiS (Oct 12, 2010)

pardus said:


> Jobs get fucked up just because they do sometimes but people also fuck up, I will be very interested to see what comes out of this.


 


Also the other side is doing their damnedest to fuck up your plans.   A general once said the first casualty of any operation is the battle plans.  I think some folks think that real life is choreographed just like it is in the movies and all  we need better script writers.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 12, 2010)

Anyone know what SEAL team did the HR attempt? Were they set up for HR as a primary mission or have HR in their mission statement?

As for the raid, shit happens and nothing in HR is a 100%. I fully agree with FF statement of sometimes we win and sometimes they win, thats just part of the bad-guy/good-guy game.


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## dknob (Oct 12, 2010)

JAB, It's safe to assume the big boy SEALs rolled out. The thought that the SEALs were tasked with HR is almost as scary as the thought of giving A Ranger platoon the same task.


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## Dame (Oct 12, 2010)

Freefalling said:


> (Entire Post)



Exactly, Free.



pardus said:


> Indeed!  She had no right being there. Big boys rules...


 
IMHO, I would certainly believe that she felt the same as you, Pardus; big boy rules.  As for her "right" to be there?  Not for me to say.  I pray that she makes it her business to watch over those who came to her aid.

Rest in peace ma'am.


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## SpitfireV (Oct 12, 2010)

The chief of the UK Security Service had this to say a month or so ago...should provide a good discussion point if nothing else. Seems relevant to this. 



> 10. It is interesting to note in this context that in the last ten years what might be called a "zero tolerance" attitude to terrorist risk in Great Britain has become more widespread. While it has always been the case that the authorities have made every effort to prevent terrorist attacks, it used to be accepted as part of everyday life that sometimes the terrorists would get lucky and there would be an attack. In recent years we appear increasingly to have imported from the American media the assumption that terrorism is 100% preventable and any incident that is not prevented is seen as a culpable government failure. This is a nonsensical way to consider terrorist risk and only plays into the hands of the terrorists themselves. Risk can be managed and reduced but it cannot realistically be abolished and if we delude ourselves that it can we are setting ourselves up for a nasty disappointment.


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## 8'Duece (Oct 12, 2010)

*Recovery Operations/Hostage Rescue*. These are operations conducted to search for, locate, identify, rescue, and return personnel, sensitive equipment, or items critical to national security. SO recovery missions are characterized by detailed planning, rehearsal, and thorough intelligence analysis. These operations employ unconventional tactics and techniques, clandestine search, possible indigenous assistance, and the frequent use of ground combat elements.

Think about it.


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## JimMCpog (Oct 12, 2010)

J.A.B. said:


> Anyone now what SEAL team did the HR attempt? Were they set up for HR as a primary mission or have HR in their mission statement?
> 
> As for the raid, shit happens and nothing in HR is a 100%. I fully agree with FF statement of sometimes we win and sometimes they win, thats just part of the bad-guy/good-guy game.


 
http://www.nytimes.com/2010/10/12/world/europe/12hostage.html

If this NYT article is correct in identifying who was involved, it could have been the Navy's folks who normally deal in hostage rescue.

Alia Afshar-Ghandi, the American woman responsible for DAI's mission in eastern Afghanistan gave a short interview to NPR this afternoon and she said that DAI's mission in eastern Afghanistan will continue.


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## TheWookie (Oct 12, 2010)

*She died because the taliban took her hostage. If they had not done that then no harm*

Raise a glass to those who dared to try - This time it didn't end exactly as we would have wanted....but it also didn't end at all like those who abducted her wanted either. As they lay dead or captured.

Tough, tough situation. But again prayers and thanks for those shooters who put their lives on the line in trying to bring her back.....

The notion that Afghan elders were going to be able to talk her to freedom is BS. Not in this area.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 12, 2010)

US forces are not the only ones to employ US hand grenades.  Just sayin'.

Additionally, if the choice were between getting fragged or getting my head sawn off by insurgents and the video posted on Al Jazeera, I'd take the former.  Again, just sayin'.


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## pardus (Oct 12, 2010)

lantram said:


> IMHO, I would certainly believe that she felt the same as you, Pardus; big boy rules.  As for her "right" to be there?  Not for me to say.  I pray that she makes it her business to watch over those who came to her aid.
> 
> Rest in peace ma'am.



She had no 'right' because she forces Military personal to rescue her and protect her, who is she to put their lives on the line?


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## pardus (Oct 12, 2010)

Marauder06 said:


> US forces are not the only ones to employ US hand grenades.  Just sayin'.
> 
> Additionally, if the choice were between getting fragged or getting my head sawn off by insurgents and the video posted on Al Jazeera, I'd take the former.  Again, just sayin'.


 
True but if the reports are to be believed it was our camera footage that showed it was an own goal.

I hope this wasn't a fuck up, the reports thus far say it was.


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## dknob (Oct 12, 2010)

Whats the SOP if there are bad guys hunkered down deep with heavy fire power unloading out of windows/doors at friendly forces if a Hostage is right inside with them?? I somehow don't see bang and enter as an option.


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## pardus (Oct 12, 2010)

dknob said:


> Whats the SOP if there are bad guys hunkered down deep with heavy fire power unloading out of windows/doors at friendly forces if a Hostage is right inside with them?? I somehow don't see bang and enter as an option.


 
Agreed absolutely.
My question would be why were the "bad guys hunkered down deep with heavy fire power unloading out of windows/doors "?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 12, 2010)

Reason for my question, Hostage Rescue or Personal Recovery is not a mission that any unit can perform. I would wonder why they would have conducted a full blown raid and not waited for her captives to move her or drop their protective posture. Not saying that’s what happened b/c I don’t have a clue of what took place. However it seems a little odd that they had an advanced team in the compound, sent an assault team in by helo and had 150 supporting forces brought in as well… That’s a hell of a lot of noise for HR/PR mission, where the hostage takers have the ability to Alamo up. Not that I have any clue of what I am talking about, b/c I really don’t. Just seems a little odd to me.

Anyhow, shit happens chica should have not played with fire and she would not have gotten burned.


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## TheSiatonist (Oct 12, 2010)

Freefalling said:


> ...Numerous helos, 160+ guys on our side alone, a 30 minute firefight, compounds with no rhyme or reason to their shape or layout and no blueprints to consult....
> 
> You hate to brush aside the death of an innocent with a "shit happens" and a shrug, but sometimes the painful truth is that the good guys, no matter how well trained, equipped, and prepared, will sometimes simply lose a battle and fail to slay the dragon in time.


 
Freakin' A, Free!

I'd like to think that since we the general public do not hear these kinds of mess often means that you guys are winning most of the time. Unavoidably, there will be ops that fail, and there will be a lot of scrutiny on the videos/AARs to figure out what went wrong in the hope in won't happen again in the future. IMO, if it really was DevGrp who handled this then I guess there was very little that could have been done to prevent this considering these guys are the best at what they do. Unlike that tragic HR attempt that happened here in the Philippines recently -- but that's another story.

My only wish is that if the powers-that-be do decide to investigate, that they do so behind closed doors so as not to compromise the identities of the operators.


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## phridum (Oct 13, 2010)

As some other posters mentioned the publics misconceptions about HR abilities, it seems to me that this mission closely follows a Hollywood-esque plot. I've read in various paperback memoirs about officers attempting to task high level operators with BS like this. Perhaps this mission was pushed through the cracks? We all know that the more high profile the task, the more fingers want in the pie. Even down to the power play of having US forces do the deed.

I totally agree with FF and the other shit-happens-ers, sometimes, that's just they way it breaks down. Things like a poor plan forced into action, compounded with bad intel and the fog of war, make for a rough AAR. I'm only hoping the boots on the ground don't get hung out to dry. I'm tired of seeing loyal hard working brothers take the fall when they did they best they could in a situation they knew was fucked from the get-go.

Honestly, seems like a poor plan alerted the bad guys (or air arrived early before the ninjas finished), bad guys hunkered down for the fight and they couldn't keep track of which mud shack had the girl. I still find it hard to believe that even SF or SEALs not trained for HR could accidentally toss a frag. Those things are pretty distinct, but who knows, if your buddies are going down around you all bets are off.


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## SpitfireV (Oct 13, 2010)

Prime Minister David Cameron came out and said that the reason the Yanks did it was because it was in a US administered area. The rest of what he said was waffle, like that Petraeus was "treating her like she was a US citizen" whatever the fuck that means. 

With regard to your first post, the reason you probably thought of the army was because in the UK/NZ/AUS "special forces" means the units overall in the same way you guys use "SOF." So in the UK you've got SAS/SBS/SRR and they're all "special forces"  unlike the one unit you guys have, the Special Forces :)


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## JBS (Oct 13, 2010)

Here's my take being non-SOF, and with the understanding that we're speculating until the facts come out:

We know a SEAL element recently carried out a kick-ass rescue mission above 7500 feet deep in bad guy territory with suppressed weapons, eliminating several sentries, snatching the hostage, and successfully exfiltrating with the payload in hand.  In that mission, they were in and out with no noise and no detection.  So this time around, if they used helos there had to be many other factors we simply don't know about; for instance, was there a small convoy of cargo vans _(i.e., hostage vehicle plus decoys)_ parked out front with the motors running, waiting to disappear with the hostage into the countryside?   In some towns a tiny white minivan or taxi can disappear into the background with little hope of being able to find it.  There is always the possibility that the observers suspected imminent movement of the hostage and with that movement the closure of a window of opportunity.

I have no comment on the grenade, if there was one, since its employment was an on the ground decision in the middle of a 30 minute gunfight, and the facts aren't out yet.


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## Ex3 (Oct 13, 2010)

I read the first few pages of the reader comments after the Daily Mail article.  I was struck by how the vast majority (95% I'd say) are saying exactly what we are - prayers for the woman and her family; she put herself at risk; the Yanks put their lives on the line to save her.  I don't think the reactions here had this been a US casualty would've been as reasonable.


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## DA SWO (Oct 13, 2010)

SpitfireV said:


> Prime Minister David Cameron came out and said that the reason the Yanks did it was because it was in a US administered area. The rest of what he said was waffle, like that Petraeus was "*treating her like she was a US citizen" whatever the fuck that means*.
> 
> With regard to your first post, the reason you probably thought of the army was because in the UK/NZ/AUS "special forces" means the units overall in the same way you guys use "SOF." So in the UK you've got SAS/SBS/SRR and they're all "special forces"  unlike the one unit you guys have, the Special Forces :)



I am just responding to the stuff I highlited; treating her like a US citizen means we can pull out the stops and use the best to find/rescue her.   Had she been a random Afghani or 3rd Country Citizen then you have to consider using non-US forces.  IIRC she was working for USAID (or another US agency) which is why we could take a more pro-active posture.

I am saddened that she died, but glad we still have people willing to take the risk.  I would pray that someone would try to rescue me or a family member in a similar situation.  

I will also wait until the final report to see if it was a grenade that killed her or a sympathetic explosion caused by a flash bang.


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## Manolito (Oct 13, 2010)

OK you all know I am no door kicker. 
I place this lady in the same category of a thrill seeker who fails and then brave men and women have to go rescue their shit. This woman knew the situation and took the risk anyway. 
I am so proud of the people that made the effort and I can't help but wonder who were the bad guys? Were we after one of them and the hostage got in the way? 
years gone by we had a hard time getting 150 people plus air support on a full blown search and destroy mission. Just sounds like a very big move for one person. 
It has been said well here I would want my loved one to go out in a battle instead of being tied up and a dull knife used to hack their head off. 
If what I carried years ago is still the ammo issue a 30 minute non stop firefight would have left me with a lot of empty pouches and the need to possibly use a frag. My experience has been five minutes is a long time to sustain fire at any one given time.  
Just an old guys thoughts on the world


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## judomedic (Oct 13, 2010)

Manolito said:


> OK you all know I am no door kicker.
> I place this lady in the same category of a thrill seeker who fails and then brave men and women have to go rescue their shit. This woman knew the situation and took the risk anyway.
> I am so proud of the people that made the effort and I can't help but wonder who were the bad guys? Were we after one of them and the hostage got in the way?
> years gone by we had a hard time getting 150 people plus air support on a full blown search and destroy mission. Just sounds like a very big move for one person.
> ...


 
First off, I'd like to extend my sympathies to US spec ops community, because the UK and Europe are laying the blame for this woman's death at the feet of the entire community. I've read several UK and European articles criticizing the US Special Forces (who I understand were not involved) and criticizing Seal Team Six. All the while questioning why the SAS were not used. Of course, at least one reporter failed to note that the Seal Teams had been in that province for months and new the area and ignored the fact that the nearest SAS team was too far to make a timely rescue. 

That said, I have this to say to Manolito. I agree with your above statement. I cannot count the number of times my colleagues and I have risked our lives on technical rescues (high angle, swift water, and cave) to save some half wit that decided to go 'a cavin' ' with a flashlight and multitool. 

Again, you guys, you real operators, have my sympathies, cause 'poop snowballs down the slope'.


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## Polar Bear (Oct 13, 2010)

Helos are a bad thing in rural areas....walk bitches. Unless it was silent or sounds like a goat it is going to attract attention. I will not comment on who should have carried out the mission because you already started off with a helo


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## JimMCpog (Oct 13, 2010)

Polar Bear said:


> Helos are a bad thing in rural areas....walk bitches. Unless it was silent or sounds like a goat it is going to attract attention. I will not comment on who should have carried out the mission because you already started off with a helo


 
Maybe they thought they would need to land right on or next to the compound in order to keep from being detected and finding an empty mud structure when they finally got there.


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## Polar Bear (Oct 13, 2010)

JimMCpog said:


> Maybe they thought they would need to land right on or next to the compound in order to keep from being detected and finding an empty mud structure when they finally got there.




Sorry but a helo takes away from the element to surprise. I work in the city now and can hear a helicopter 1 min out. When do you think you can hear it in the country side....gives them time to prep. Think about it like this does someone robbing your house knock on your door to come in or throw a rock threw a window if you are home? No they try and be quiet


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## dknob (Oct 13, 2010)

This seems to be the most BELIEVABLE accurate depiction of what happened on the ground:  http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/13/linda-norgrove-us-commando-disciplinary


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 13, 2010)

dknob said:


> This seems to be the most BELIEVABLE accurate depiction of what happened on the ground: http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/oct/13/linda-norgrove-us-commando-disciplinary



Damn, I would not want to be that SEAL (one that tossed the frag) right now.  Thats why all this HSLD video feeds and over head shit should not be..... Motherfuckers getting to hit a rewind button and say WTF. That SEAL did not get a chance to hit a rewind button, so why should his boss get that option.....


On the other hand, thats a major fuck up tossing a frag in a building with out positive control on the hostage or at least knowing where she was.


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## pardus (Oct 13, 2010)

The grenade thrower's career is over, that is certain IMO. :2c:


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## RetPara (Oct 13, 2010)

Shit.  Throwing the grenade, not good.  Not owing up to it; till its seen in the instant replay..... worse by orders of magnitudes.


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## JBS (Oct 13, 2010)

I don't want to go too far out of my lane with this, but we're still talking a 5-man unit assaulting through an objective in hostile terrain, in a 30 minute firefight, with a high concentration of bad guys inside firing on them.  I might be skewered for saying this, and if so that's fine with me since I like a good scrap on the boards every once in a while, but the first priority for those men had to be neutralize the threat, and stay alive first, and get the hostage second.   For the comments I've read on the UK Guardian, some of these armchair generals seem to forget this was an active gun battle with 7.62 zinging around in a compound that nobody had floorplans for.

And since I'm already out here on a ledge, shit I might as well jump around a bit.  I also read comments about how the SAS should have been the ones to go in.  I'll put it like this: the SAS are respected around the world, no doubt, but it is pure fantasy to say that it would have gone one way or another at any point in time.  In their most recent (successful) rescue mission, they secured a hostage, but a little kid and an Afghan mother were both killed.  In another rescue, their hostage was saved, but the Afghan terp was smoked in the process.  My point is not degrade or detract from the SAS, as everybody knows their reputation.  My point is there were bullets flying in a war zone and people die in war zones when bullets are flying. Holding up the SAS (or any other group) as if they would have done the job flawlessly is (a.)impossible to know and (b.) not at all supported by recent history, where there have been friendlies KIA _(they just didn't "matter" because of their nationality and citizenship). _ So I agree with the earlier post that this woman would never have been in this position if she didn't decide to go play "let me help the 3rd world" in a place where Westerners get beheaded just for being there.:2c:


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## The91Bravo (Oct 13, 2010)

Damn... no way around the facts...


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## SpitfireV (Oct 14, 2010)

SOWT said:


> I am just responding to the stuff I highlited; treating her like a US citizen means we can pull out the stops and use the best to find/rescue her.   Had she been a random Afghani or 3rd Country Citizen then you have to consider using non-US forces.  IIRC she was working for USAID (or another US agency) which is why we could take a more pro-active posture.



When you take into account that the PM said that US forces did it because it was in a US held area (which makes sense) then treating her as anyone other than someone who needs to be rescued immediately makes sense and the US citizen remark smacks of political arsekissing. The fact she's not a US citizen shouldn't come into it considering that: 

A. She's British and remembering the Special Relationship. 
B. The US said they'd sort it out and so regardless of who's citizen she is, it's US responsibility. 


As for the talk around her not being there- there is a place for aid workers, whether we like it or not. Some of them know the risks, some of them are deluded, that'll always happen. Regardless most of them do good work. She's probably done a solid in that this particular team is now eliminated.


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## TheSiatonist (Oct 14, 2010)

Manolito said:


> ... I place this lady in the same category of a thrill seeker who fails...


 


JBS said:


> ...So I agree with the earlier post that this woman would never have been in this position if she didn't decide to go play "let me help the 3rd world" in a place where Westerners get beheaded just for being there.:2c:



Not trying to disagree with you both nor defend Ms. Norgrove but there are certain types of people whom I would describe as "selfless" and "filled with compassion", and they are quite different from your common, everyday thrill-seekers.

IMO, thrill-seekers, you can tell them "No, you can't go to A-stan coz they'll chop your head off" and they'd say "OK", and then do something else like lie down with a 50-foot crocodile or jump off a cliff with a big-ass umbrella. All on camera.

But people like Ms. Norgrove, you tell them to stay off A-stan and they'll ask you back "Who will look after all those poor people torn by the war?". They are persistent and they want to help those people because they believe if they won't do something, nobody else will. They have made it their life's mission to help others even if it means getting killed in the process. And they WILL find a way to get in there no matter what.

Just saying...


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## Rapid (Oct 14, 2010)

JBS said:


> the first priority for those men had to be neutralize the threat, and stay alive first, and get the hostage second.


 
Gonna have to respectfully disagree there. The mission, which in this case was hostage rescue, should come first, especially if the unit tasked with it is specifically trained to handle it.

They all knew that though, that's not the issue... they're professionals after all; I don't believe anyone was trying to put himself before the mission. It was simply a mistake, on one individual's part, to deploy a frag into an unknown room of an unknown compound before locating and securing the hostage first. A mistake in a Tier-1 unit is pretty much game over for you career. It's not unfortunate, it's just the way things are (and have to be) in that kind of place to uphold excellence.

RIP and condolences to the family.


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## Ranger_Smoothie (Oct 14, 2010)

Rapid said:


> Gonna have to respectfully disagree there. The mission, which in this case was hostage rescue, should come first, especially if the unit tasked with it is specifically trained to handle it.
> 
> They all knew that though, that's not the issue... they're professionals after all; I don't believe anyone was trying to put himself before the mission. It was simply a mistake, on one individual's part, to deploy a frag into an unknown room of an unknown compound before locating and securing the hostage first. A mistake in a Tier-1 unit is pretty much game over for you career. It's not unfortunate, it's just the way things are (and have to be) in that kind of place to uphold excellence.
> 
> RIP and condolences to the family.


 
Exactly, but I think everyone is jumping the gun on this one and arm-chairing the mission. We must wait till the investigation is over and the reports come out before we thrown the operator or operators to the wolves. This discussion now and here of all places is wrong and timing is really wrong. We are quiet, remember this.


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## dknob (Oct 14, 2010)

the problem is the operator not coming forward with it off the bat. he could have held on to his career if he owned up to it. the death was a misfortune, but nobody is perfect.


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## Sicilian Lass (Oct 14, 2010)

TheSiatonist said:


> Not trying to disagree with you both nor defend Ms. Norgrove but there are certain types of people whom I would describe as "selfless" and "filled with compassion", and they are quite different from your common, everyday thrill-seekers.
> 
> IMO, thrill-seekers, you can tell them "No, you can't go to A-stan coz they'll chop your head off" and they'd say "OK", and then do something else like lie down with a 50-foot crocodile or jump off a cliff with a big-ass umbrella. All on camera.
> 
> ...



Your point is well taken and I'm sure Ms. Norgrove was genuine in her compassion. That said, the time to help people torn by war is after it is over and the place is certainly not in the middle of a hostile zone.

I have to agree with Pardus and others. Warriors have enough to deal with keeping themselves and each other safe while engaging the enemy without having to rescue someone who shouldn't be there in the first place.

As to the results of the rescue, the only thing I can speak to with any degree of certainty is this: the outcome, while tragic does nothing to diminish the selflessness of these brave men in their attempt to save her and I thank them for all they do.

My heart goes out to the family if Ms. Norgrove and to her rescue team.


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## Brooklynben (Oct 14, 2010)

TheSiatonist said:


> ....But people like Ms. Norgrove, you tell them to stay off A-stan and they'll ask you back "Who will look after all those poor people torn by the war?". They are persistent and they want to help those people because they believe if they won't do something, nobody else will. They have made it their life's mission to help others even if it means getting killed in the process. And they WILL find a way to get in there no matter what.
> 
> Just saying...


  OK, lets take YOUR ad hoc profile of Ms. Norgrove here and a little deductive reasoning.  Just because someone is an ardent 'Do-Gooder', doesn't give them a magical pass from the realities on the ground any more then it would for an ardent vacuum salesman.  

In the end, and however noble Miss Norgrove's intentions may have been, she helped (though not totally responsible for) get a lot of people shot up, herself killed and end the career of a good warrior.  Whether Miss Norgrove was a "good", "bad", or "deluded" aid worker has absolutely nothing to do with what happened.  The hard fact is that her decision to put herself in that situation in the first place bears every bit of responsibility for the eventual outcome as the SEAL who put the grenade through the door.

I have no idea what the current statistics are, but a decade or so ago; the success rates for armed rescue missions extracting hostage(s) alive were less than 20%.   I can only assume that these statistics haven't radically changed much over the years.  As such, I would say that the decisions of those who allowed Miss Norgrove to put herself initially in such a high risk situation, also bear a good deal of responsibility for this tragedy.  

And while I'm on my rant here; I'd like to know why so many damned people are so quick and ready to jump down the throat of a volunteer Warrior when something goes wrong?  A lot of good men risked their lives to try and save Miss Norgove that night.  When it comes to 'Do Gooders'; they're the real ones.  

Ultimately, all the finger pointing should be at the Islamics who teach the hate and fund the hate that motivated those Muslims who took Miss Norgove hostage.  :doh:


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## Brooklynben (Oct 14, 2010)

*Regarding the SEAL*

There was a story once taught to me about wisdom.  It's supposedly a true story.  As most of us know, the Gallow Winery in California make a lot of wine and sells it relatively inexpensively.  They're able to do this by making the wine in huge volumes.  They have huge stainless steel wine vats that hold thousands of gallons of wine at a time.  

A production manager one day turned the wrong valve in preparing one of these huge vats to cleaned.  He unintentionally dumped thousands of gallons of finished wine down the drain costing the Winery a small fortune in lost revenue.

When the owner was asked if he fired the worker, he replied; "Heavens no!  If I hired someone new, I'd have to train him and then hope he wouldn't make the very same mistake.  The worker who's already made the mistake is now one of our most experienced and I know he'll never make that mistake again."  

I know the Navy doesn't alway work by wisdom and is heavily influenced by public perception, but with regard to the SEAL who supposedly placed the grenade inside a room where Miss Norgrove happened to be; he may be more valuable to the community today than he's ever been before.


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## Isiah6:8 (Oct 14, 2010)

Ranger_Smoothie said:


> Exactly, but I think everyone is jumping the gun on this one and arm-chairing the mission. We must wait till the investigation is over and the reports come out before we thrown the operator or operators to the wolves. This discussion now and here of all places is wrong and timing is really wrong. We are quiet, remember this.


 
Just wanted to x2 this.


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## dknob (Oct 14, 2010)

if anything he will find a good home in SAD if they do transfer him out of the unit or the SEALs entirely.


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## AWP (Oct 14, 2010)

Meh, I don't have the entire story or details so I'll set aside the nails or use them to crucify someone more deserving. Now, his stepping forward later and fessing up is more of an issue to me than anything, but I'm not exactly in his CoC or boat crew, so I shan't worry about that.

Besides, I'm pretty sure that particular career field has a way of determining if the guy stays, goes to a new Team, is sent to BUD/S to be an instructor, or finds a new home outside of the Navy. 

As for the deceased, running around Kunar is a really bad idea if your name tape says "U.S. XXXXXX", running around as an unarmed aid worker is patently stupid. You'd like to think she thought this all the way through, but I doubt it. I guess other parts of the world don't need aid workers, parts which AREN'T in one of the most dangerous areas on the planet?

You pays your money and you takes your chances......


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## Ravage (Oct 14, 2010)

Terrible terrible news. My thoughts are with her family and the man/men involved in the rescue operation.

"Sometimes you eat the bear, sometimes the bear its you".


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## pardus (Oct 14, 2010)

A'stan is a war zone, that is no place for any fucking aid worker, they can turn up when things settle down.

Regarding the fessing up about the grenade, was there an AAR that he failed to mention the grenade or had he just not mentioned it because it hadn't come up?

Huge difference there, if he did hide it then he should go, no question, otherwise...


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## JimMCpog (Oct 15, 2010)

Polar Bear said:


> Sorry but a helo takes away from the element to surprise. I work in the city now and can hear a helicopter 1 min out. When do you think you can hear it in the country side....gives them time to prep. Think about it like this does someone robbing your house knock on your door to come in or throw a rock threw a window if you are home? No they try and be quiet


 
Yeah but if they get detected on the approach the captors could load her up and drive her out of there or get into a shoot out well outside the compound. You could end up taking a bunch of casualties well before you're anywhere close to picking up 1 hostage.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 15, 2010)

Sometimes there's a greater risk to the force by trying to do a ground infiltration than going in via black helo.


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## Polar Bear (Oct 15, 2010)

JimMCpog said:


> Yeah but if they get detected on the approach the captors could load her up and drive her out of there or get into a shoot out well outside the compound. You could end up taking a bunch of casualties well before you're anywhere close to picking up 1 hostage.


 
and the helicopter could crash or someone could slip and break a leg, comms could be lost etc....I WOULD HAVE NEVER USED A HELICOPTER, TO ME IT IS A GREATER RISK. This is my opinion and you will not change it. Since Vietnam the US Military has believed in gee-wiz gadgets


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## Swill (Oct 15, 2010)

There's some big talk in this thread. Open Source says there's an investigation. So, why don't we wait until that is done before we start slicing and dicing?


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## skeeter (Oct 17, 2010)

RIP Ms. Norgrove

I'm sure the SEAL's did their best in the rescue attempt.
I know this sounds harsh considering the ending of the raid, but on the plus side the SEAL's killed some bad guys.


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## DoctorDoom (Nov 15, 2010)

Brooklynben said:


> OK, lets take YOUR ad hoc profile of Ms. Norgrove here and a little deductive reasoning. Just because someone is an ardent 'Do-Gooder', doesn't give them a magical pass from the realities on the ground any more then it would for an ardent vacuum salesman.
> 
> In the end, and however noble Miss Norgrove's intentions may have been, she helped (though not totally responsible for) get a lot of people shot up, herself killed and end the career of a good warrior. Whether Miss Norgrove was a "good", "bad", or "deluded" aid worker has absolutely nothing to do with what happened. The hard fact is that her decision to put herself in that situation in the first place bears every bit of responsibility for the eventual outcome as the SEAL who put the grenade through the door.



Who is claiming that she gets a magical pass?  Where does the assumption that she did not accept responsibility for her choices?

Her parents are distraught, but let's not confuse their emotions with her intentions.  She wore a burqa and from all appearances certainly had a better idea of her realities on the ground than you give her any credit for; she was their as part of a hearts and minds campaign, part of the winning anti-insurgent strategy.  To castigate her without cause seems premature.


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## DoctorDoom (Nov 15, 2010)

Sicilian Lass said:


> Your point is well taken and I'm sure Ms. Norgrove was genuine in her compassion. That said, the time to help people torn by war is after it is over and the place is certainly not in the middle of a hostile zone.
> 
> I have to agree with Pardus and others. Warriors have enough to deal with keeping themselves and each other safe while engaging the enemy without having to rescue someone who shouldn't be there in the first place.



By your logic the Red Cross should not exist, volunteer ambulances would not exist in WWI, no NGO's should ever go anywhere where there is conflict and by extension civilian suffering, and no attempt to aid civilians should ever occur until hostilities are concluded.  A nightmare scenario.

Pardus has stated an opinion that she forced our forces into rescue; you and he are wrong.  There is no "requirement," and certainly she's not forcing anyone to rescue her.  It is in out interest to have people like her their and to help them.  If she has the power to "force" that kind of operation I would like her on my side in an anti-insurgency campaign.

I'm glad people like her exist and go where others won't.  But to blame her for her volunteerism and her willingness to go to the places most would avoid is mean-spirited and small-minded.  Big boy rules apply, and I'm sure she knew it, and she still went.  That's admirable to me.


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## DoctorDoom (Nov 15, 2010)

pardus said:


> A'stan is a war zone, that is no place for any fucking aid worker, they can turn up when things settle down.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


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## pardus (Nov 15, 2010)

DoctorDoom said:


> By your logic the Red Cross should not exist, volunteer ambulances would not exist in WWI, no NGO's should ever go anywhere where there is conflict and by extension civilian suffering, and no attempt to aid civilians should ever occur until hostilities are concluded.  A nightmare scenario.
> 
> Pardus has stated an opinion that she forced our forces into rescue; you and he are wrong.  There is no "requirement," and certainly she's not forcing anyone to rescue her.  It is in out interest to have people like her their and to help them.  If she has the power to "force" that kind of operation I would like her on my side in an anti-insurgency campaign.
> 
> I'm glad people like her exist and go where others won't.  But to blame  her for her volunteerism and her willingness to go to the places most  would avoid is mean-spirited and small-minded.  Big boy rules apply, and  I'm sure she knew it, and she still went.  That's admirable to me.



How could we not go looking for her? You really think that would fly? Rubbish.
It was the right thing to do and it is what is expected of us. I doubt there would be many British politician's willing to tell the public that they stopped the Military from looking for her and attempting a rescue.
Same would happen in the US if it was an American who ended up in the same scenario.



DoctorDoom said:


> By then it will be too late.  Civilian humanitarian aid is also crucial  in an anti-insurgency campaign where all foreign military forces are  viewed with distrust.



I did not say they shouldnt be there at all, I said until things settle down.
You think it would be the right thing to do to have the Salvation Army having a concert for the troops on Omaha Beach on D DAY? That would be the humanitarian thing to do right?

"All together now! Kumbaya my Lord, Kumbaya!"  

You do not send an unarmed woman into an area that is so dangerous its an AO that SEALs operate in, that should tell you something, there are many places in A'stan she could have been at a lot lower risk.
Yeah she maybe brave but that does not mean she's not stupid or ignorant either.


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## Brooklynben (Nov 16, 2010)

DoctorDoom said:


> Who is claiming that she gets a magical pass? Where does the assumption that she did not accept responsibility for her choices?
> 
> Her parents are distraught, but let's not confuse their emotions with her intentions. She wore a burqa and from all appearances certainly had a better idea of her realities on the ground than you give her any credit for; she was their as part of a hearts and minds campaign, part of the winning anti-insurgent strategy. To castigate her without cause seems premature.


Ideologies are marvelous, but the simple reality is that any non-Muslim who walks into the middle of either Afghanistan or Pakistan right now on some humanitarian quest, is only going to end up putting more good people at risk. There's no shortage of other people around the world that need help.

I wrote this before I saw Pardus's reply. It seems we agree once again.


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## Rapid (Nov 16, 2010)

No, no, no... THIS is real stupidity:



> Surrounded by family and friends, Mr Dewani, 31, said it was his new  wife who had made the decision to go to one of the city's poorest areas.
> Mr Dewani said on Saturday night, after dinner in a suburb  and a walk on the beach, they got in a taxi to head back to Cape Town.





> He said that, on the way, Mrs Dewani said she would like to  see some of the *"real South Africa"* and the taxi driver left the  motorway and headed towards Gugulethu township. The plan was simply to drive through but, two miles outside, their vehicle was carjacked by armed men.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-11769913


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## pardus (Nov 17, 2010)

Rapid said:


> No, no, no... THIS is real stupidity:
> http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-bristol-11769913



Both of them are fucking idiots.
First thing to pop into my mind before I read or looked for any info was, she was raped, probably gang raped...

1 in 3 woman are raped in South Africa.




> She was found dead in the vehicle 15 miles further on. A shot to the neck had  severed an artery. Anni is also believed to have been sexually assaulted.


​

Read more: http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/3229738/Hubby-tells-of-bride-Anni-Dewanis-murder.html#ixzz15Vus2HyH​​Educate yourself before you do something/go anywhere you fucking dumbasses.​​Again, cops had to go into very dangerous areas to look for her, idiocy putting others lives at risk.​​In New Zealand, if you go into the wilderness and get fucked up and have to be rescued, they investigate the circumstance of you getting fucked up, if it is determined that you were a retard, you pay the bill for the rescue.​
​Personal responsibility.
​​Two examples of retards being killed in one thread, makes one want to cry....​​Nah.
​
​


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## AssadUSMC (Nov 17, 2010)

So much I want to say here...  As mentioned before, a lot of (incorrect) conclusions have been drawn.  The woman was most definitely naive in this case - no question there.


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## AWP (Nov 17, 2010)

You have to admit, Harold and Kumar go to the Korengal could be a sleeper hit next summer.


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## Scotth (Nov 17, 2010)

Freefalling said:


> You have to admit, Harold and Kumar go to the Korengal could be a sleeper hit next summer.



Does that mean Kal Penn has to quit the Obama Administration again?  They just hired him back after he finished making the last sequel.


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## dknob (Aug 23, 2011)

so where is the official report?


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## Tropicana98 (Aug 23, 2011)

> In October, 2010, a DEVGRU team attempted to rescue Linda Norgrove, a Scottish aid worker who had been kidnapped in eastern Afghanistan by the Taliban. During a raid of a Taliban hideout, a SEAL tossed a grenade at an insurgent, not realizing that Norgrove was nearby. She died from the blast. The mistake haunted the SEALs who had been involved; three of them were subsequently expelled from DEVGRU.
> 
> Read more http://www.newyorker.com/reporting/2011/08/08/110808fa_fact_schmidle#ixzz1Vu25WYC8​



Not the official report but I thought this might shed some light on the situation.


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## LibraryLady (Aug 23, 2011)

Tropicana98 said:


> Not the official report but I thought this might shed some light on the situation.



Uh... linky goes to report on the bin Laden raid.

LL


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## pardus (Aug 23, 2011)

Tropicana98 said:


> Not the official report but I thought this might shed some light on the situation.



A, I think we all know by now what went down, right?

B, as LL said...

So... do push ups.


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## Zach07 (Aug 24, 2011)

If people are still following and want to know the outcome...

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2010/12/02/AR2010120201654.html



> Members of the rescue team have been disciplined for failing to provide a complete and full account of their actions in accordance with U.S. military procedure.


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## moobob (Aug 24, 2011)

Polar Bear said:


> and the helicopter could crash or someone could slip and break a leg, comms could be lost etc....I WOULD HAVE NEVER USED A HELICOPTER, TO ME IT IS A GREATER RISK. This is my opinion and you will not change it. Since Vietnam the US Military has believed in gee-wiz gadgets



FYI: There are places in Afghanistan (i.e. most of it) where if you do not air assault, you lose ALL element of surprise. Villages with one way in, one way out. You cannot drive in without early warning networks picking you up from many miles away.


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## Tropicana98 (Aug 24, 2011)

LibraryLady said:


> Uh... linky goes to report on the bin Laden raid.
> 
> LL





pardus said:


> A, I think we all know by now what went down, right?
> 
> B, as LL said...
> 
> So... do push ups.



Roger I was aware that it was on the Bin Laden raid it was just that specific excerpt...knocking em out. Apologies.


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## AWP (Aug 24, 2011)

Ever play the $25,000 Pyramid?

"Your front door....a safe....a chastity belt...this thread...."

"Things that are locked!"


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