# Navy SEALs seek minority candidates



## Ravage (Nov 9, 2010)

http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2010/11/navy-seal-diversity-110610w/

SAN DIEGO — The Naval Special Warfare Center is embarking on new marketing and awareness campaigns to reach more minority candidates who have the best odds of becoming Navy SEALs in the hope that those efforts will diversity the commando force.

The campaign is the latest move by Naval Special Warfare Command to boost its recruitment of minorities, particularly African-Americans, to attend the Basic Underwater Demolition/SEAL course and follow-on SEAL Qualification Training and join the all-male community of special operators — one that historically has been largely white.

The campaign started Oct. 1, but much of the work is just beginning, said Rosemary Heiss, an NSW Recruiting Directorate spokeswoman in Coronado, Calif.

Naval Special Warfare Command hired three contractors for the diversity initiative, which will renew naval special warfare’s outreach to historically black colleges and universities; develop new marketing strategies that focus awareness, screening and recruiting efforts on minority communities; and develop research that identifies the traits of successful BUD/S candidates to hone recruiting.

“Each initiative has a different approach to get a candidate that we want. When you have a multifaceted approach, you start to mesh the different initiatives together to get more successful candidates,” Cmdr. Brodes Hartley, naval special warfare’s force diversity officer, said in a Navy Compass article.

Navy SEAL training is considered among the toughest in the military, with attrition rates from BUD/S average roughly 75 percent. But efforts in recent years, including an expanded recruitment effort and retooled preparatory course at the Naval Training Center in Great Lakes, Ill., are showing signs of easing attrition of potential SEAL and special warfare combatant-craft crewman candidates.

However, overall minority numbers still remain short of existing goals, and minority representation within NSW’s officer and enlisted communities remains much lower than what is reflected in the U.S. population.

Roughly 12.5 percent of the U.S. population is black, a number expected to rise to 13 percent by 2040, according to U.S. Census predictions. But only 10 percent of SEAL officers are minorities — with blacks representing 2 percent of officers — and minorities make up less than 20 percent of enlisted special warfare operators, according to a May contract solicitation for the pilot marketing and outreach program.

The latest plan comes as top military leaders — including Chief of Naval Operations Adm. Gary Roughead and Adm. Mike Mullen, chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and a former CNO — have spoken publicly about the importance of diversifying the military for the next generation, with diversity targets set for 2037.

To reach those goals within its senior officer ranks, naval special warfare must boost the number graduating and completing all BUD/S and SEAL Qualification Training by 15 or 16 minority officers and 40 to 50 sailors, the command wrote in the solicitation.

The latest campaign also aims to tackle a long-running and vexing problem: Why aren’t minorities attracted to spec ops as much as white men?

A 1999 Rand study that examined diversity among the military’s spec ops forces found several key “barriers” cited as reasons fewer minority men opt to go into special operations. These included: the lack of minorities as role models within spec ops forces; little support within their own minority communities for choosing spec ops; and poor skills, little access or less experience with swimming, which is critical to spec ops diving missions and a must in meeting physical fitness requirements and completing demanding training.







> Navy SEALs simulate the evacuation of an injured teammate during immediate action drills at the John C. Stennis Space Center.


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## Teufel (Nov 9, 2010)

Yes we can?


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## DA SWO (Nov 9, 2010)

They do this every two-three years.
Hard to get minorities into a program like this when your target audience generally doesn't swim.
SF and the Air Force have the same problem.  Most inner-city pools don't exist anymore so blacks (as a population) don't have the required swimming skills.
Waste of money, just extend the wannabees contract by a year and put them in a prep program.


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## TLDR20 (Nov 9, 2010)

Who the fuck cares if minorities are under-represented. If they can do the job I don't give a shut whether they are black orange white latin or Chinese. The reason they are not in SOF is because they can't swim and many don't have the drive to do it. It's not racist it is fact. Otoh, I am willing to bet Latinos are over-represented in SOF compared to the population


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## 0699 (Nov 9, 2010)

cback0220 said:


> Who the fuck cares if minorities are under-represented. *If they can do the job I don't give a shut whether they are black orange white latin or Chinese*. The reason they are not in SOF is because they can't swim and many don't have the drive to do it. It's not racist it is fact. Otoh, I am willing to bet Latinos are over-represented in SOF compared to the population


 
Bam.


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## 8'Duece (Nov 9, 2010)

Shit, there's plenty of white guy's can't handle that training.  Who's fooling who here ?


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## Ranger Psych (Nov 9, 2010)

I remember a specific Ranger NCO who was black... who was cracking jokes about "the token black guys in Regiment"... and HE said it was because of 2 things. Most "brothas" are lazy and don't want to work, and most brothas can't swim because there ain't no water you want to swim in, in the ghetto.

It was funny at the time, but it's also pretty true. We had mexicans and blacks and some chinese and puerto ricans and so on...  those that had the desire, volunteered. Those who actually had the drive, got a beret.  There is no purpose in a diversity program in a volunteer element because all you're going to do is get more volunteers that suck up slots and QUIT, regardless of what color they are.


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## TLDR20 (Nov 9, 2010)

8'Duece said:


> Shit, there's plenty of white guy's can't handle that training.  Who's fooling who here ?



I don't get what you're saying. Yes lots of white guys quit, that is true across the board. But the point of this is that black guys don't try. The reason's quoted in that Rand study go to show why I guess I don't want "minorities" here. 

"the lack of minorities as role models within spec ops forces; little support within their own minority communities for choosing spec ops; and poor *skills*, little access or less experience with swimming, which is critical to spec ops diving missions and a must in meeting physical fitness requirements and completing demanding training."

How am I supposed to trust a guy with no skills. If he can't use a bow staff, and isn't a level 1100 on WoW I don't want him and neither do the ladys. Girls want guys with skills.

Sorry just trying to lighten the mood a bit


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 9, 2010)

From a non-SOF point of view, there are only a very few black Infantrymen that I met who pulled their own weight and had the “team player” attitude, drive and discipline (those few have remained close friends). The best Infantry soldiers I have seen in consistency has been Latin soldiers hands down, hard workers and team players.


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## Purple (Nov 9, 2010)

Race has nothing to do with it - *either you cut it or you don't*.

Purple's $.02


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## txpj007 (Nov 9, 2010)

Good God! WTF is up with this diversity shit all over the damn place.  No one is stopping anyone from getting the job they want if they have the drive and desire.  Besides...might it be fair to say that a large pool of african americans that would have the athletic ability, drive and discipline to make it in SOF usually go the gridiron route?  Why must the military always be used as a test cell for social issues in the United States? You dont see some agenda to get more white guys in the NBA.  Everyone knows most of the greats in basketball are black but you still have your whites, latinos and asians sprinkled throughout.   

The bottom line is the military is open to ALL men in the United States and so are all aspects of the military if you meet the standard.  Last time i checked skin color was not one of the standards.


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## RackMaster (Nov 9, 2010)

I'm a minority... disabled. ;)  So does that mean they want me?


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## 8'Duece (Nov 9, 2010)

RackMaster said:


> I'm a minority... disabled. ;)  So does that mean they want me?



Your only good on Pizza !!  ...................................................Canadian bacon, couph,  couph !! 



Seriously, 

Most Marines, Soldiers, Sailors and Airmen can't make this grade.   I don't care who you are or what you've been, you probably don't have what it takes to cut all 3 phases of BUD/S   Add in SEAL TT, Freefall, BAC etc. 

Like the man said, if you can cut the mustard your in and your an SO with NSW, if not, your on the fleet. 

*Here's my Bold statement*

Diversity or not, there are people on this board that hold the *Green Title* of SOF under their screen name.  They cannot or will not ever make it through BUD/S.   It's a fact, live with it. 

We have minorities that are SOF on this board.  They all made their grades. Hold their heads up high and deliver high performance to their Teams.  

You can't recruit based on color alone.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 9, 2010)

After rereading my post I think it’s a little out there on the racist side and I am not racist what so ever, so to anyone who might feel I was being racist with my comments I apologize it was not my intent. I was just pointing out my observations of the performance of non-SOF Infantry soldiers based on ethnicity. Personally I think anyone (regardless of race) can be trained to perform, it just takes some longer then others.


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## 0699 (Nov 10, 2010)

cback0220 said:


> How am I supposed to trust a guy with no skills. If he can't use a bow staff, and isn't a level 1100 on WoW I don't want him and neither do the ladys. *Girls want guys with skills*.
> 
> Sorry just trying to lighten the mood a bit


 
That's why I worked so hard on my nunchuck and computer hacking skills...


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## TheSiatonist (Nov 10, 2010)

Ranger Psych said:


> I remember a specific Ranger NCO who was black... who was cracking jokes about "the token black guys in Regiment"... and HE said it was because of 2 things. Most "brothas" are lazy and don't want to work, and most brothas can't swim because there ain't no water you want to swim in, in the ghetto.


 
I remember that Marine Recon episode of Discovery's Surviving the cut -- there were a lot of black dudes in that batch of trainees.


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## Viper1 (Nov 10, 2010)

Being a member of the "I'm not all black but I'm not all white so I'll say I'm Mocha Latte" faction, I'll chime in.

Recruiting based on race makes about as much sense as the National Hockey League trying to recruit specifically for more black skaters.  Aside from guys like P.K. Subban, it just isn't going to happen because the target audience just isn't there.  The services shouldn't taken a hit for not being as "diverse in color" as the rest of the country might want to see it.  It's a volunteer organization and people either volunteer and make it or they don't.  Plain and simple in my view.


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## DoctorDoom (Jan 3, 2011)

I think you guys are missing the point.

The effort is not to recruit minorities ONLY because they are minorities, the effort is to address those reasons why minorities who might make it through the various pipelines don't even bother to apply.  ("...  the lack of minorities as role models within spec ops forces; little support within their own minority communities for choosing spec ops...")  There's a high manpower demand and being able to attract ALL potential candidates is behind these initiatives.

I'm sure white guys who don't swim much suck up the technical work in Indoc like a sponge and make it; just like there are professional triatheletes who don't.  With large untapped manpower pools already in uniform NSW seems to be trying to get, as stated in the article, those minorities who may be able to make it to simply be aware of the opportunities and to apply.  I don't think anyone is saying put minorities in only because they are minorities and lower standards.  "Lack of skills" will be weeded out during the pipeline.



SOWT said:


> Waste of money, just extend the wannabees contract by a year and put them in a prep program.



Like a Pre-indoc Indoc? or maybe like a performance rollback for selected candidates?

Regardless, the need appears to be increasing the total number of wannabes, which is what this "new" initiative attempts to address.


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## AWP (Jan 3, 2011)

Just reading the article this is a marketing and recruiting tool, not a lowering or changing of standards.


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## policemedic (Jan 3, 2011)

Generally, the word diversity goes right up my ass.  You're qualified, or you're not.  And if you are, it's probably because you worked your ass off to earn it.

I believe that it doesn't matter what your ethnic/racial makeup is as long as you meet whatever standard is set.  I've served with all types of people, and respected everyone who had enough drive and self-respect to do the job well, regardless of what they looked like.  I'll drink with anyone that falls into the 'meets the standard' category.

But I've found that a lowering of standards often follows an intensified effort to recruit more minorities.  And that is unacceptable.  Whenever a command is tasked with increasing X by Y percent, commanders who are concerned with their report cards can become tempted to loosen the standards.  In corporate America, this is bad business.  In tactical units where lives most truly are on the line even in training, this is stellar idiocy and malfeasance.

I find the 'can't swim' argument a little specious.  You're in the fucking Navy! Even assuming the only water you grew up near was a sidewalk puddle, once you're in the service you have access to rec facilities with pools and people who will teach you to swim, if you only ask and put in the effort.  If a person is in the Navy and is unwilling to learn to swim well, to me that is an indication they don't have what (I assume) it takes to be a SEAL.  Along the same lines, they're recruiting at colleges- colleges have athletic programs, rec programs, and great big fucking pools!  There's no excuse not to learn to swim, particularly if a Naval career is even 1/100th of a possibility.

I'm willing to bet every male in the Navy is aware there are sailors in Oakleys who jump, dive, swim, and kill fuckers.  If they aspire to be one of them, the qualifications are no secret.  They could put in the time and effort to become viable candidates if they wanted to.

I do agree that figuring out what character traits or prior experiences/skill sets make a person likely to succeed at BUD/S is a worthwhile effort, especially given the historical fail rate.


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## Mac_NZ (Jan 3, 2011)

I would have thought that people who could pass in the first place where the minority.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 4, 2011)

Mac_NZ said:


> I would have thought that people who could pass in the first place where the minority.



Good point


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## x SF med (Jan 4, 2011)

With the huge number of FPS games out there that extoll the virtues of being a SEAL, SF, Recon, PJ, CCT, yada yada...  The marketing issue has been taken on by the games amnufacturers, the issue is the reality of what it takes to actually get out there and allow the chance of failure in selection.  IMHO, if you got the stuff, you'll try, if you want the glory only, you'll fail.  In my pre-Phase Class (what became prep and selection), we had one guy that was a rock, but we worked with him until he could pass the swim test, IIRC, he ended up on a dive Team a couple of years later and became a real fish.

Race is irrelevant, it's desire and ability.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 4, 2011)

Diversity can be an asset as long as standards are not lowered.  There is only a problem when it becomes "diversity for the sake of diversity."  Diverse backgrounds, skillsets, opinions, etc. can be useful if they can contribute to the overall mission.  I don't have a problem with the military targeting a specific group for recruitment for a specific field, as long as standards of the profession are maintained and other qualified applicants aren't excluded as a result.


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## Scotth (Jan 4, 2011)

To echo Mara a little, if the standards remains the same what is the problem with targeted recruitment efforts?  When standards are changed to accommodate diverse canidates thats when the problems start.


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## KBar666 (Jan 4, 2011)

8'Duece said:


> Your only good on Pizza !!  ...................................................Canadian bacon, couph, couph !!
> 
> 
> 
> ...




First off, not on topic but whats BAC?  I ask cause I'm leaving in  a few months with an contract.
Also not sure how serious this is in way of how "diverse" you must be cause when I was meeting with my recruiter he was basiclly like" ok race, what you got?"  I was like---"ahhh white" and he goes " you sure thats all anything at all anything?"  I said well my grandfather was like half indian and he goes" great, white and Native American it is"     So aside from that being incrediblly dumb story I think its more or less so they can say yeah we're "diverse"  cause trust me I don't look any bit Indian.


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## Centermass (Jan 4, 2011)

KBar666 said:


> First off, not on topic but whats BAC?



Basic Airborne Course, or Blood Alcohol Content. For most here, both usages apply accordingly.......lol


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## surgicalcric (Jan 4, 2011)

DoctorDoom said:


> ...NSW seems to be trying to get,  as stated in the article, those minorities who may be able to *make it  to simply be aware of the opportunities and to apply*...



As if minorities didnt already know the SEALs (or other SOF units) existed...  I call BULLSHIT.

The issue here is a lack of drive/motivation.

Those who have what it takes apply; those who dont make excuses.


And while we are speaking of being under represented in a field/specialty, I want to know why there arent more caucasians in the S1 shop... ;)


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## Etype (Jan 4, 2011)

This is nothing new in the SOF community, Rangers have already begun recruiting minorities.
Their latest pitch is at 1:26 in this vid.


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## DoctorDoom (Jan 5, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> As if minorities didnt already know the SEALs (or other SOF units) existed... I call BULLSHIT.
> 
> The issue here is a lack of drive/motivation.
> 
> ...



You're calling bullshit on a claim not being made. The problem as stated by the article is not lack of awareness of SOF, but lack of role models and lack of support from their own communities to apply. Knowing the SEALs exist and what they do aren't the noted issues.

The caucasians lack the administrative/personnel *skillz*... I don't trust them with my records. ;)


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## mike_cos (Jan 5, 2011)

Oh no.. no no no... I hope for SEALS no... most operations are conducted in foreign states, covert, black, or clandestine operations... terrorists or foreign intelligence operators could infiltrate in teams. Absolutely NO WE CAN'T!



YOU KNOW WHAT I MEAN....


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## 8'Duece (Jan 5, 2011)

Etype said:


> This is nothing new in the SOF community, Rangers have already begun recruiting minorities.
> Their latest pitch is at 1:26 in this vid.



Did he say "Soul brother Ranger?"  :confused:


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## DoctorDoom (Jan 5, 2011)

Uh... mike_cos... these are Americans.  They're not opening recruitment to the ANA or some shit like that... Have you read Jawbreaker?
Thinking that some "foreign agent" is going to slip through the pipeline is fantasy at best, racebaiting at worst.
So I do know what you mean, but you're off-base.


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## surgicalcric (Jan 5, 2011)

DoctorDoom said:


> ... The problem as stated by the article is not lack of awareness of SOF, but lack of role models and lack of support from their own communities to apply. Knowing the SEALs exist and what they do aren't the noted issues...



Again, it comes back to a lack of personal drive DD.  Those who have it seek out the opportunity...

Furthermore, why do they need race-related role models?  Those who have worn the Trident before them (those looking to find a reason) should be enough regardless of race; I know it was for me when I came to SF.

If a guy needs more motivation (outside sources) than that I wouldnt want him in my team room...

Crip


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## Etype (Jan 5, 2011)

I wish I would've know that there were SF guys who lived in trailers as kids.  Man, if I would've know that there were people in SF who had so much in common with me, it would've given me the motivation to make it through the Q Course...

Wait, I didn't need any external motivators.


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## mike_cos (Jan 5, 2011)

DoctorDoom said:


> Uh... mike_cos... these are Americans.  They're not opening recruitment to the ANA or some shit like that... Have you read Jawbreaker?
> Thinking that some "foreign agent" is going to slip through the pipeline is fantasy at best, racebaiting at worst.
> So I do know what you mean, but you're off-base.



After Assange's gate i aspect all... or 9/11.... or brits terrorists (english of course) I think the matter is more complicated and deserve more attention. To serve in Navy Seal for me is not a job, but a privilege, that cannot be subjected to ridiculous odds of political correct. But maybe i'm wrong....


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## policemedic (Jan 6, 2011)

DoctorDoom said:


> You're calling bullshit on a claim not being made. The problem as stated by the article is not lack of awareness of SOF, but lack of role models and lack of support from their own communities to apply. Knowing the SEALs exist and what they do aren't the noted issues.
> 
> The caucasians lack the administrative/personnel *skillz*... I don't trust them with my records. ;)



I disagree.

I would posit that there are a tremendous number of role models in the SEALs.  That is to say that every SEAL, past and present, is a role model for those interested in entering the NSW community (and for those outside the SOF community as well).  Many of these warriors are minorities, and I would bet their contributions to NSW and our national security are disproportionate to the percentage of SEALs they comprise.  When the government implies that a role model must look like the person they are to inspire, it is simply perpetuating  fallacious thinking.  I think this theory also fails to empower people (and isn't that what we're trying to do?) while at the same time injecting bias into the equation.

I also think it's slightly pejorative- _we know you could have been a SEAL if only you had someone to look up to, someone who looked like you and that could have lit the fire in your belly..._  Not only is it demeaning to the potential sailor/SEAL candidate, but it's downright insulting to the number of minority SEALs.  They aren't good enough to serve as role models because there aren't enough of them?

As far as lack of support from their own communities is concerned, exactly what communities are we referring to?  When I joined the Army, that became my community.  When I swore into the police service, the same thing occurred.  I'd imagine the same applies to the Navy, and I'm equally certain that most commands support a good sailor's attempt to join the SEALs.  I think the notion that a minority sailor requires support from a social group composed of others of his ethnicity is somewhat disingenuous.

Bottom line- we must treat (all) people as persons worthy of respect, and offer the same opportunities to all.  Those with the right attributes- the elite- will find their way to SOF (even if they can't swim very well initially).


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## DoctorDoom (Jan 6, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> Again, it comes back to a lack of personal drive DD. Those who have it seek out the opportunity...
> 
> Furthermore, why do they need race-related role models? Those who have worn the Trident before them (those looking to find a reason) should be enough regardless of race; I know it was for me when I came to SF.
> 
> ...





Etype said:


> I wish I would've know that there were SF guys who lived in trailers as kids. Man, if I would've know that there were people in SF who had so much in common with me, it would've given me the motivation to make it through the Q Course...
> 
> Wait, I didn't need any external motivators.



I see your point, it's a good one; and you guys would know much better than me.

Don't take this the wrong way, I am curious if you guys have an opinion about why SOF is overwhelmingly white and rural.  I think it has to do with rural communities often training skills from an early age that are heavily utilized in SOF.  But why don't more minorities apply?  Not trying to use a rhetorical device, I really am interested in your opinions.


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## DoctorDoom (Jan 6, 2011)

policemedic said:


> I disagree.
> 
> I would posit that there are a tremendous number of role models in the SEALs. That is to say that every SEAL, past and present, is a role model for those interested in entering the NSW community (and for those outside the SOF community as well). Many of these warriors are minorities, and I would bet their contributions to NSW and our national security are disproportionate to the percentage of SEALs they comprise. When the government implies that a role model must look like the person they are to inspire, it is simply perpetuating fallacious thinking. I think this theory also fails to empower people (and isn't that what we're trying to do?) while at the same time injecting bias into the equation.
> 
> ...



It's not a question of numbers, but awareness of minority predecessors.  If you are AD and you know that 'every SEAL I've ever seen is white,' you may assume that you aren't welcome.  Hidden messages do exist, which is the damndest thing about perception of prejudice.  Note I said perception.  The perjorative on prior minority SEALs is a nice philosophical rejoinder but doesn't address the reality, IMO.

You can use the Army community/Navy community as an argument, but remember that again fails to address the reality that people bring their non-military communities with them into the service.  You don't shed your entire being and hiostory the moment you put on the uniform.  While I am certain that SOF members couldn't give a rat's ass what color you are as long as you measure up, the problem is getting those who aren't aware of that ethos to apply.  You have to see the situation from the putative "outsider's" perspective.  Your argument, while it sounds nice, doesn't address the reality.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 6, 2011)

DoctorDoom said:


> Don't take this the wrong way, I am curious if you guys have an opinion about why SOF is overwhelmingly white and rural.  I think it has to do with rural communities often training skills from an early age that are heavily utilized in SOF.  But why don't more minorities apply?  Not trying to use a rhetorical device, I really am interested in your opinions.



In the SF group I am in, I would say about 35-40% are a minority mostly hispanic. I do not think white is the overwhelming majority. I think you really should stop where you are in this conversation. SOF guys who have been through these rigorous selection processes have stated emphatically why they believe minorities are under-represented. Those reasons are as follows: 1) Inability to swim( may stem from lack of innercity pools, who knows, I know that I don't care). 2) Lack of motivation to try. 3) Who gives a shit! We are all doing the job, what does it matter who is on my left and right.


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## TJT0321 (Jan 6, 2011)

I can place the blame squarely on an inability to swim. Many minorities can't swim...at all. I've seen it myself dozens of times. I won't speculate on why that is, but it's a fact. We get a lot of communicators and support personnel who are more or less forced into our training and we have to teach them to swim. Usually after a week we'll have them able to tread water and maybe do an underwater crossover. After a few months, maybe they're confident and comfortable enough to go to school and survive if they have the desire to finish. A lot of that desire is built up by supporting the individual and helping them get ready and in shape. We teach them, prepare them, and encourage them when things get tough. Without that preparation and support, a lot of guys would fall short.

Anyway, minorities tend to be underrepresented in SOF mostly because they're not knocking down the door trying to join. I think the Navy is trying to change that by encouraging more minorities to give it a shot. I see no problem with that. A simple month long swimming confidence course prior to hitting BUD/s would probably do the trick. Also having some minority SEAL's strutting around their old neighborhoods and schools talking to kids about their job would be helpful. Seems pretty straightforward.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 6, 2011)

_



			Don't take this the wrong way, I am curious if you guys have an opinion about why SOF is overwhelmingly white and rural. I think it has to do with rural communities often training skills from an early age that are heavily utilized in SOF. But why don't more minorities apply? Not trying to use a rhetorical device, I really am interested in your opinions.
		
Click to expand...

_I saw a study some years back (which unfortunately I cannot find so I cannot post here) that postulated that minorities might tend to join the Army to obtain job training and marketable skills, so they would likely gravitate towards combat support and combat service support roles instead of combat arms.  I'm sure if someone with some Google skilz looked long enough they could find a demographic breakdown of the Army showing the percentages of the different branches by race.    SOF is unquestionably majority white (and male), but I'm not 100% certain that SOF as a whole is "overwhelmingly" rural, not to a degree significantly greater than the Army in general.  But again, I cannot produce any facts to support my claims.


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## DoctorDoom (Jan 6, 2011)

TJT0321 said:


> Anyway, minorities tend to be underrepresented in SOF mostly because they're not knocking down the door trying to join. I think the Navy is trying to change that by encouraging more minorities to give it a shot. I see no problem with that. A simple month long swimming confidence course prior to hitting BUD/s would probably do the trick. Also having some minority SEAL's strutting around their old neighborhoods and schools talking to kids about their job would be helpful. Seems pretty straightforward.



Those are my thoughts as well.  The only thing is adding more prep courses before actual selection.  Doesn't seem fair and elongates the entire pipeline.



cback0220 said:


> In the SF group I am in, I would say about 35-40% are a minority mostly hispanic. I do not think white is the overwhelming majority. I think you really should stop where you are in this conversation. SOF guys who have been through these rigorous selection processes have stated emphatically why they believe minorities are under-represented. Those reasons are as follows: 1) Inability to swim( may stem from lack of innercity pools, who knows, I know that I don't care). 2) Lack of motivation to try. 3) Who gives a shit! We are all doing the job, what does it matter who is on my left and right.



Not every minority is equivalent.  NSW is also likely different from SF, and their numbers are not comparable to your SF Group.

I think we are talking at slightly different points.  You speak to those who do or don't make it, I was thinking more about those who apply or make the attempt.  Although I would say in my defense that in no way do I dispute what you and others who are SOF have said, and my previous posts would show that, other than perhaps the part of "motivation to try."  That's the part I'm curious about.
There are other reasons to view the new program critically, other than the legitimate concerns of questionable yield, pressure to lower standards to meet diversity criteria, and recruiting those who lack basic skills which then wastes training resources.  I think SOWT pointed out that this happens every 2-3 years; I wonder what drives the current effort to recruit minority applicants.  Also, is a diversity drive necessary?  It seems like there are plenty of applicants for SOF selection/training; one would have to suppose that minority applicants who then make it through to a SEAL Team are such an advantage in their being black/Latino/Chinese/Afghan alone that it warrants the recruiting, which I don't really see.  While I agree with TJT that NSW's efforts may not hurt, for me there's good reason for skepticism.


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## DoctorDoom (Jan 7, 2011)

ISO said:


> The second part was directed more or less to other who comment like



Marauder, Sir, I just want to benefit from ISO's internet clairvoyance, being able to direct a post at posts that come AFTER his. I will start a new thread on the lottery, and then have him give me the winning numbers ahead of time when I post my proposed losing numbers. I'll share my winnings with all my SS.com friends. 

Returning to the topic at hand... I think my comment regarding the rural extraction of SOF members should be taken with a grain of salt, as you pointed out. I don't have good data except observations from others, which is not well founded information. It does make sense though that the skills developed from youth are often useful, and that really cannot be changed by recruiting.

Based on numbers I have from NSW demographics on the officer side only, there can certainly be more recruiting or something, because the disparity is staggeringly white non-hispanic. This is not applicable to the enlisted ranks, but I suspect they may not be much different.

Interestingly, the Navy has Hispanic as not a race category, but rather a cultural differentiator, in accordance with all federal agencies. You can hispanic and be of any race. I wonder how that breakout looks in other SOF.

Edit for spelling and typos.


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## x SF med (Jan 7, 2011)

When I enlisted, I was definitely in the minority -  suburban upper middle class upbringing, college educated (97.5 hrs on enlistment) and I was a recruiter's dream - I wanted combat arms and SF.  There was not a delared war at the time (Cold War Era) and Special Ops was relatively unknown to the masses.  What washed out the majority of the applicants for SF was the swim test, no matter what background - after the swim test, land nav kicked a lot of butts (I had been in orienteering, no prob), then it was just heart...  oddly, even then, the makeup of SF and SEAL appeared to be mostly caucasian.  The standards were the standards and you either made it or you didn't.


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## ISO (Jan 8, 2011)

Did any one ever think that "minorities" don't care to try out because they don't feel the need to risk there lives for a country that treats them so shitty ( I don't personally believe that but thats what my friends told me, I love capitalism)? Maybe most are support because they want to get out of a shitty life-style and better themselves, and to them getting shot at is just another day. I grew up in chicago and traveling through 8 different gang territories (couldn't even wear a letterman jacket because a friend of mine was killed because the jacket had gang colors in it) just to get to school I would be lucky if once a week; I wasn't getting shot at or fighting or running for my life. Most kids at the inner city recruiting stations were joining support roles such as admin or supply, simply as a means to pay for college and where encouraged not to take up combat arms, (this was told to me) "don't die for texaco". When I enlisted I didn't see the point in getting shot at everyday all over again, I was eligible for college but I couldn't afford it , so I got a really technical job, and I got out.

As far as skills needed to grow up in the ghetto relating to SOF; I am not a subject matter expert but I don't think all missions required you to track someone through the woods. I thought the last ten years or so have been mostly urban. Then again I am not a subject matter expert. Just a p.o.g, trying out for SOF ( go figure).


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## surgicalcric (Jan 9, 2011)

ISO said:


> ...I am not a subject matter expert.



You should have stopped there.  Your pontifications about what is required of us in the conduct of our (SOF) jobs is neither wanted or warranted and is inaccurate at best.

Clear enough for you?


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## ISO (Jan 9, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> You should have stopped there.  Your pontifications about what is required of us in the conduct of our (SOF) jobs is neither wanted or warranted and is inaccurate at best.
> 
> Clear enough for you?




lol your serious too


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## Teufel (Jan 9, 2011)

ISO said:


> lol your serious too



Thoughtful discussion is welcomed, childish behavior is not.   If you want to get something out of this forum, show some respect to the men and women on this board who have had very successful careers in special operations.  Feel free to disagree with a senior member of this board but mind your tone when you do so.  You have been warned.


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## AWP (Jan 9, 2011)

I just watched a new Magpul Dynamics video, "The Art of the Locked Thread."


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## Polar Bear (Jan 9, 2011)

ISO said:


> lol your serious too



See ya


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## Marauder06 (Jan 9, 2011)

Well, I tried to help him out by deleting his first uninformed, inflammatory and off-topic post (as well as the posts in the resulting dogpile) but I guess he didn't get the hint.


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## DA SWO (Jan 9, 2011)

Marauder06 said:


> I saw a study some years back (which unfortunately I cannot find so I cannot post here) that postulated that minorities might tend to join the Army to obtain job training and marketable skills, so they would likely gravitate towards combat support and combat service support roles instead of combat arms. I'm sure if someone with some Google skilz looked long enough they could find a demographic breakdown of the Army showing the percentages of the different branches by race. SOF is unquestionably majority white (and male), but I'm not 100% certain that SOF as a whole is "overwhelmingly" rural, not to a degree significantly greater than the Army in general. But again, I cannot produce any facts to support my claims.



I read the same study (mid to late 90's IIRC).  Rural whites tended to join Combat Arms for the challenge, and minorities joined for job skills/college money (look at the recruiting themes back then).


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