# Negative Press on Marine Corps



## 81FO (Mar 10, 2017)

Wondering if anyone has seen the news reports today about inappropriate internet postings of female Marines on a facebook page... won't go into details of what is out there those interested can do their own search. I should point out I'm not big on social sights like facebook, myspace, etc... I stick to discussion forums like ShadowSpear,ExpeditionPortal, etc... Although I do have an LinkedIn account for business purposes. I only mention my internet use or lack there of, because the news report about the fb page is a surprise. It amazes me how ignorant people can be. Honestly how many "secrets" have been found out and personal character assasination has been committed by people using social media sites?! When will people learn!

The reason for this thread is in response to something I saw on a cable news network. Link is below--

Former Marine: Photo scandal shouldn't surprise leadership

For those who are familiar with "not-in-my-marine-corps" and its founder Erin Kirk-Como, stuff like this only feeds the false narrative IMO, that she spews claiming that the Marine Corps' method for producing Warriors is wrong.

I know this will brand me as a sexist, but I am sick of the BS idea being pushed that men and women are the same. Fact is they are not! That does not mean women cannot do what men do. I am on board with the idea of equality for women. My disgust is in the continued barrage to wipe away gender in society!

FACT: (in regards to mammals)

MALES IMPREGNATE FEMALES, FEMALES THROUGH PREGNANCY CARRY OFFSPRING AND GIVE BIRTH TO SAID OFFSPRING! MALES CANNOT GET PREGNANT OR GIVE BIRTH!!!

Therefore, heterosexual males are hardwired to copulate with females period!

So until someone figures out a way to make humans Asexual, I will keep my sexist view point that Males (Men) & Females (Women) are different.

As for treating females with respect that should be addressed, but coed boot camp is not the answer. IMO making Marine Corps boot camp coed is a fail for a myriad of reasons, am I wrong?

For clarity I should point out that I do not support or condone what was being done on the web-sites mentioned in  the news reports. Simply put it is UNSAT!


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## TLDR20 (Mar 10, 2017)

Typing in all caps is a great way to get your point across via the written medium.

As to the point, what was happening to these female Marines is unsat, like you pointed out.

As to some of your other highly nuanced and obviously researched points, I would say that you confuse biological sex and gender. The words aren't interchangeable.

Gender refers to social and cultural differences, rather than biological differences.

Your post seems more like a rant than an attempt at discourse though.


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 10, 2017)

It would take way too long to write out and fully explain my thoughts. 

In a nutshell I think the guys are tools for creating a site that does this. As a Marine it does not bother me in anyway that Marines are involved.

Service members are not saints, there are good and bad; no different that cops/doctors/priests.  A few bad apples does not spoil the pot (or however that goes).

This type of thing is so common that it is really a non-story to me.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 10, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> It would take way too long to write out and fully explain my thoughts.
> 
> In a nutshell I think the guys are tools for creating a site that does this. As a Marine it does not bother me in anyway that Marines are involved.
> 
> ...



I actually disagree. While not ok, it is one thing to share with your boys in the barracks, entirely another to share it on the internet.


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## Il Duce (Mar 10, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> I actually disagree. While not ok, it is one thing to share with your boys in the barracks, entirely another to share it on the internet.



I think the scope of this is also significant - though not surprising.  30k current and former Marines (isn't the corps only like 300k active?) is a pretty sizeable chunk of a small organization.

In some ways I think the USMC is very lucky this story broke like this in the current era - GEN(R) Mattis as SECDEF and the Trump administration enthusiastic 'non-PC' warriors mean the political consequences of this will be minimal IMO.


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## 81FO (Mar 10, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Typing in all caps is a great way to get your point across via the written medium.
> 
> As to the point, what was happening to these female Marines is unsafe, like you pointed out.
> 
> ...





Point taken. I will refrain from using all caps in future posts.
My reference or equating of gender and sex was in regards to nature / primal instinct. Yes gender is a "social" moniker, but "gender neutral" is social engineering of the worst sort.

In hind sight I agree it is a rant, but my question still stands, am I wrong in thinking that coed boot camp will not have a positive affect?


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## TLDR20 (Mar 10, 2017)

81FO said:


> Point taken. I will refrain from using all caps in future posts.
> My reference or equating of gender and sex was in regards to nature / primal instinct. Yes gender is a "social" moniker, but "gender neutral" is social engineering of the worst sort.
> 
> In hind sight I agree it is a rant, but my question still stands, am I wrong in thinking coed boot camp will not a positive affect?



Every other service has had coed boot camps for like 20+ years...


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## 81FO (Mar 10, 2017)

Il Duce said:


> I think the scope of this is also significant - though not surprising.  30k current and former Marines (isn't the corps only like 300k active?) is a pretty sizeable chunk of a small organization.
> 
> In some ways I think the USMC is very lucky this story broke like this in the current era - GEN(R) Mattis as SECDEF and the Trump administration enthusiastic 'non-PC' warriors mean the political consequences of this will be minimal IMO.




Your assesment has merit, still there should be reprisals and the Corps needs to stay ahead of this.


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## Lefty375 (Mar 10, 2017)

81FO said:


> Point taken. I will refrain from using all caps in future posts.
> My reference or equating of gender and sex was in regards to nature / primal instinct. Yes gender is a "social" moniker, but "gender neutral" is social engineering of the worst sort.
> 
> In hind sight I agree it is a rant, but my question still stands, am I wrong in thinking that coed boot camp will not have a positive affect?



I'm just not sure how a co-ed boot camp makes a Marine/Soldier a worse warrior, which is where you lose me. If you could explain the adverse effects of integrating basic training, then maybe I would have the same view as you. As I see it now, the battlefield is a complicated place with many different nations/genders operating on it. Those who aspire to be warriors need to learn to perform on the 21st-century battlefield. 

Adapt or die.


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## 81FO (Mar 10, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Every other service has had coed boot camps for like 20+ years...



I am aware of that. 

It was found that there are other anonymous sites being used by other US military branches essentially doing the same thing. Which tells me coed boot camp, in reference to elevating respect for females, is not working.

I don't want to get into a pissing contest on what boot camp is the toughest... Marine Corps boot camp has too much going on and I feel mixing ypung men & women together in that setting will not have the intended outcome.


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## 81FO (Mar 10, 2017)

Lefty375 said:


> I'm just not sure how a co-ed boot camp makes a Marine/Soldier a worse warrior, which is where you lose me. If you could explain the adverse effects of integrating basic training, then maybe I would have the same view as you. As I see it now, the battlefield is a complicated place with many different nations/genders operating on it. Those who aspire to be warriors need to learn to perform on the 21st-century battlefield.
> 
> Adapt or die.



The negative is that the majority of recruits are teenagers, in regards to maturity, and are inevatibly going to screw up. No pun intended. Moreover, my view is that it is not optimal when standards are not equal. If the standards are equal then I see no issue with integration. 
Plainly put, when the female recruit standard is less than what is required for the male recruit it unfortunately creates a bias.


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## Il Duce (Mar 10, 2017)

81FO said:


> Your assesment has merit, still there should be reprisals and the Corps needs to stay ahead of this.



Reprisals?  I think you might mean consequences.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 10, 2017)

This is not a result of coed boot camp. It is a result of females allowing photography of themselves, and then either self release or release by the individual shooting the shots.

There's also minimal proof that half the imagery even is of actual servicemembers. Many women enjoy playing dressup/dressdown in their partners uniform.

Sad to say, but it's not like any of the photos I saw were in any manner surreptitiously taken. Eye contact and smiling at and/or holding the camera doing mirror selfies is a clear image of who started the mess. Whoever shared them into the wild is fucked up, but w/e.


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## 81FO (Mar 10, 2017)

Il Duce said:


> Reprisals?  I think you might mean consequences.



Yes, you're right. Thank you for the correction.


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## Lefty375 (Mar 10, 2017)

81FO said:


> The negative is that the majority of recruits are teenagers, in regards to maturity, and are inevatibly going to screw up. No pun intended. Moreover, my view is that it is not optimal when standards are not equal. If the standards are equal then I see no issue with integration.
> Plainly put, when the female recruit standard is less than what is required for the male recruit it unfortunately creates a bias.



I don't think the majority of the adults joining the service (at 18) believe that sharing nude photographs on the internet is morally permissible. If they do, they shouldn't join a professional fighting force. Instead, I would recommend these young members get some training in how to be a civil human being.

I agree with the standards being equal. I have no issues with that...


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## 81FO (Mar 10, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> This is not a result of coed boot camp. It is a result of females allowing photography of themselves, and then either self release or release by the individual shooting the shots.
> 
> There's also minimal proof that half the imagery even is of actual servicemembers. Many women enjoy playing dressup/dressdown in their partners uniform.
> 
> Sad to say, but it's not like any of the photos I saw were in any manner surreptitiously taken. Eye contact and smiling at and/or holding the camera doing mirror selfies is a clear image of who started the mess. Whoever shared them into the wild is fucked up, but w/e.


 
I have not seen the photos, seen the site in question so I am ignorant in  that regard. 

Your obsurvation is interesting, perhaps the claim by "not-in-my-marine-corps" founder is exaggerated.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 10, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> I actually disagree. While not ok, it is one thing to share with your boys in the barracks, entirely another to share it on the internet.



The amount of polaroids being passed around in my day was pretty unbelievable.  03-04'ish there was a female Army MP who did a shit load of digital nude pics. That shit hit the internet and spread like a wildfire. That was probably one of the first times in my life I realized how powerful the internet can be.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 10, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> This is not a result of coed boot camp. It is a result of females allowing photography of themselves, and then either self release or release by the individual shooting the shots.
> 
> There's also minimal proof that half the imagery even is of actual servicemembers. Many women enjoy playing dressup/dressdown in their partners uniform.
> 
> Sad to say, but it's not like any of the photos I saw were in any manner surreptitiously taken. Eye contact and smiling at and/or holding the camera doing mirror selfies is a clear image of who started the mess. Whoever shared them into the wild is fucked up, but w/e.



If today a girl shares a Snapchat with a dude or vice versa I don't think that is that weird. Sharing it online is fucking predatory though IMO.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 10, 2017)

Lefty375 said:


> I don't think the majority of the adults joining the service (at 18) believe that sharing nude photographs on the internet is morally permissible. If they do, they shouldn't join a professional fighting force. Instead, I would recommend these young members get some training in how to be a civil human being.
> 
> I agree with the standards being equal. I have no issues with that...






TLDR20 said:


> If today a girl shares a Snapchat with a dude or vice versa I don't think that is that weird. Sharing it online is fucking predatory though IMO.



Tossing a partner some visual entertainment is glorious.

Sharing what you get in confidence, at all, is jacked up. Pure and simple. Going full UNCLASS NO DIST RESTRICTION on that shit via the web should result in having your hands fed into a snowblower.


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## Grunt (Mar 10, 2017)

At its basest level, I hate the lack of respect for each other's personal privacy. Just because someone provides a photograph of themselves to someone in particular, it isn't providing "blanket consent" to send it to the world via the WWW.


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## 81FO (Mar 10, 2017)

Lefty375 said:


> I don't think the majority of the adults joining the service (at 18) believe that sharing nude photographs on the internet is morally permissible. If they do, they shouldn't join a professional fighting force. Instead, I would recommend these young members get some training in how to be a civil human being.




No disaggrement there.


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## Gunz (Mar 10, 2017)

Please delete.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 10, 2017)

Ocoka One said:


> Too bad there's no way to make online social media off limits to service members. Nothing good seems to come from it. Is that heresy to think that way?



I disagree. Social media allows for a shitload of good. 

Just seeing your brothers either getting out and doing good, or other buddies staying in and doing good is a huge morale booster. Things like OAF are clutch. Maybe it is generational, but I think social media is great for keeping in touch...


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## 81FO (Mar 10, 2017)

Ocoka One said:


> Too bad there's no way to make online social media off limits to service members. Nothing good seems to come from it. Is that heresy to think that way?



I can understand your view, yet it comes down to being overly permissive. Possibly a regulation that would limit use. You would think a firm understanding of PERSEC would mitigate sharing compromising info / pics.


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## Teufel (Mar 10, 2017)

It's wrong and those responsible will be investigated and punished. This is being addressed at all levels in the Marine Corps. The entire service should not be judged on the actions of a few.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Mar 10, 2017)

Ocoka One said:


> Please delete.



Nope I agree with your original post.....


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## Gunz (Mar 10, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> I disagree. Social media allows for a shitload of good.
> 
> Just seeing your brothers either getting out and doing good, or other buddies staying in and doing good is a huge morale booster. Things like OAF are clutch. Maybe it is generational, but I think social media is great for keeping in touch...



You're right; my post was neither well-reasoned nor realistic. I've benefited from the Internet in many ways, and in particular in keeping in touch with friends. Blaming social media for the crap that ends up on it is like blaming the gun not the idiot who pulls the trigger. And yet it can come back to bite you in the ass as so many find out.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 10, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> I disagree. Social media allows for a shitload of good.
> 
> Just seeing your brothers either getting out and doing good, or other buddies staying in and doing good is a huge morale booster. Things like OAF are clutch. Maybe it is generational, but I think social media is great for keeping in touch...



OAF keeping it real.


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## Grunt (Mar 10, 2017)

Ocoka One said:


> You're right; my post was neither well-reasoned nor realistic. I've benefited from the Internet in many ways, and in particular in keeping in touch with friends. Blaming social media for the crap that ends up on it is like blaming the gun not the idiot who pulls the trigger. And yet it can come back to bite you in the ass as so many find out.



Very true! It's ultimately about personal accountability and holding the violators responsible for their actions -- individually and consistently.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 11, 2017)

Teufel said:


> It's wrong and those responsible will be investigated and punished. This is being addressed at all levels in the Marine Corps. The entire service should not be judged on the actions of a few.


But there just shit heads


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## Teufel (Mar 11, 2017)

I bet Congress will use this incident as ammunition against the Marine Corps to lower standards at IOC and accelerate gender integration in the infantry and MARSOC. Both those fields are currently open to women but they aren't filling slots fast enough for Congress. Have you seen what life is like for a young Marine in the infantry? Lots of ruck marches, buddy rushes, digging fighting holes, and generally being cold, wet, hungry and mistreated. Many women wanted to attend the school of infantry to prove they could do it. Considerably less want to actually do it for a living.


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 11, 2017)

Teufel said:


> I bet Congress will use this incident as ammunition against the Marine Corps to lower standards at IOC and accelerate gender integration in the infantry and MARSOC.



Sir,

There is a problem in our beloved Marine Corps when it comes to women Marines.  Young enlisted females learn very quickly that their sexuality (even simple flirting) will get them far, to include better duties, easier jobs in the shop, meritorious promotions, less harassment in formation, no real prep for field days, etc...etc...etc.

I was witness to this for four years on a regular basis, (1989 to 1993) and some of my brothers who stayed in say that little has changed.  One of the WM's I served with made it to E8 and told me she spent much of her time counseling young female Marines to break the chain.

Bottom line there is a genuine feeling of resentment and envy many male Marines have when it comes to WM's.  The males watch the females skate thru the Corps and there is nothing they can do about it.  There is no one to complain to, you just deal with it.  I am not at all surprised that pics like these were uploaded.  Marines (retired and a few still active) who I have talked to about this are not surprised either. 

It is impossible for me to believe that the officer ranks are not aware of the interactions between young females and senior Marines, and  until NCO's (and Staff NCO's for that matter) stop playing games with the females who want to play with them, the culture will likely not change.

Not surprising, there are few women coming forward to talk with NCIS. I am guessing because most of them don't even know they are on the board, and because they don't want anything to do with being singled out if they are still active.

I am not saying I agree with the file sharing, but I understand why some Marines may not view their female comrades with the level of respect the Corps likes to pretend we all have for each other.

From the Commendant -
Top Marine asks women to 'trust us' in nude-photo inquiry

From NCIS (on Twitter of all places)

.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 11, 2017)

You can go far in the military--and in life--by simply not being a dick.  "Revenge porn" is a dick move, talking shit about fellow service members is a dick move, and harassing women that you found out about through revenge porn and people talking shit about them is a TOTAL dick move.


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## Teufel (Mar 11, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> You can go far in the military--and in life--by simply not being a dick.  "Revenge porn" is a dick move, talking shit about fellow service members is a dick move, and harassing women that you found out about through revenge porn and people talking shit about them is a TOTAL dick move.


I think part of the problem is that bad apples are sometimes the loudest voices in the veteran community online. I have seen guys with a BCD on their record lecture active duty Marines on how great the Corps was, "back in the day." Junior Service members look up to their seniors and social media has enabled them to connect with "mentors" who steer them in the wrong direction with their words, example and actions. Shadowspear is a positive example of online mentorship because it is moderated and the members self-police to uphold a culture of professionalism and mutual respect for all members. I've heard that Marines United did many positive things for numerous Marines, but ultimately they failed their 30,000 members through their tacit approval of immoral activities and will always be remembered for their misconduct, not their good deeds.


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## Teufel (Mar 11, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Sir,
> 
> There is a problem in our beloved Marine Corps when it comes to women Marines.  Young enlisted females learn very quickly that their sexuality (even simple flirting) will get them far, to include better duties, easier jobs in the shop, meritorious promotions, less harassment in formation, no real prep for field days, etc...etc...etc.
> 
> ...



I've seen it happen. I've also seen female Marines get out of deployment by getting pregnant. Those are leadership problems and the fault lies with the command, not the individual. Guys would do the same things if they could. I've seen guys fake injuries, go U/A, etc to get out of work.


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## Il Duce (Mar 11, 2017)

Teufel said:


> I think part of the problem is that bad apples are sometimes the loudest voices in the veteran community online. I have seen guys with a BCD on their record lecture active duty Marines on how great the Corps was, "back in the day." Junior Service members look up to their seniors and social media has enabled them to connect with "mentors" who steer them in the wrong direction with their words, example and actions. Shadowspear is a positive example of online mentorship because it is moderated and the members self-police to uphold a culture of professionalism and mutual respect for all members. I've heard that Marines United did many positive things for numerous Marines, but ultimately they failed their 30,000 members through their tacit approval of immoral activities and will always be remembered for their misconduct, not their good deeds.



I think the 'bad apple' theory is problematic for leaders in organizations like ours.  It's always tempting to want to see the best in the people that make up our organizations - and we like the idea we're a part of the inherently 'good' people who would never engage in immoral conduct.  But, I think history and organizational dynamics tell a different and disturbing story - that most people are capable of doing really shitty stuff in groups that have normalized that behavior, by design or by default.  We want LT Calley to be a lone sociopath, leading a unit of inexperienced weirdos that got out of hand.  We want to avoid the truth he was one leader amongst many in an experienced, well-trained (for the period) unit, getting caught doing something they had done before on a smaller scale.  To me, that's one of the critical pieces in leader training about the law of war, EO/SHARP/EEO, hazing, and all the rest - that you have to stand in between your men and the darker things in human nature sometimes.

I agree with you on your point on social media.  In a way it's like the (I think USMC principle adopted by the wider joint force) 'strategic corporal' in a different context.  The ability to influence - and be heard - through social media vastly outweighs what one can accomplish in other forums and the structure of accomplishment is much different.  I think the difference is in the social aspect - the influence and voice is amplified as a mechanism of having a large number of connections.  It's like the E-4 mafia getting the chance to go global.


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## 81FO (Mar 11, 2017)

Teufel said:


> I think part of the problem is that bad apples are sometimes the loudest voices in the veteran community online. I have seen guys with a BCD on their record lecture active duty Marines on how great the Corps was, "back in the day." Junior Service members look up to their seniors and social media has enabled them to connect with "mentors" who steer them in the wrong direction with their words, example and actions. Shadowspear is a positive example of online mentorship because it is moderated and the members self-police to uphold a culture of professionalism and mutual respect for all members. I've heard that Marines United did many positive things for numerous Marines, but ultimately they failed their 30,000 members through their tacit approval of immoral activities and will always be remembered for their misconduct, not their good deeds.



Teufel, would appreciate your view / input on the "recommendation" from "not-in-my-marine-corps" to integrate or coed Marine Corps boot camp. The premise of it is male Marines if training side by side with female Marines, males will inevitably gain respect for female Marines.

I've stated previuosly in the thread that integration will do nothing to change the culture if standards are not equal for male & female recruits. They were not when I went through the summer of '90...


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## 81FO (Mar 11, 2017)

Thank you all who have contributed to this discussion it is very insightful.


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## Teufel (Mar 11, 2017)

81FO said:


> Teufel, would appreciate your view / input on the "recommendation" from "not-in-my-marine-corps" to integrate or coed Marine Corps boot camp. The premise of it is male Marines if training side by side with female Marines, males will inevitably gain respect for female Marines.
> 
> I've stated previuosly in the thread that integration will do nothing to change the culture if standards are not equal for male & female recruits. They were not when I went through the summer of '90...



I don't think integrating boot camp will change anything other than male entry level standards. This Facebook scandal is not a symptom of a larger Marine Corps misogynistic culture that can be fixed by integrating boot camp but rather the active actions of a few miscreants in a group with 30,000 members who passively participated in these misdeeds through their inaction.


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## Teufel (Mar 11, 2017)

I would also submit that this problem likely extends well outside of the Marine Corps and a Facebook group and likely had tendrils reaching into every corner of the DOD.


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## 81FO (Mar 11, 2017)

Teufel said:


> I don't think integrating boot camp will change anything other than male entry level standards. This Facebook scandal is not a symptom of a larger Marine Corps misogynistic culture that can be fixed by integrating boot camp but rather the active actions of a few miscreants in a group with 30,000 members who passively participated in these misdeeds through their inaction.



Thank you for the prompt reply.

To your point I agree 100%. As you stated previously I also share in your concern that Congress will get involved and use this to alter our Corps, IMO not in a good way.
There are still many Congressional hold overs from the mid-90's, who shared POTUS 42's view that USMC was a redundancy. And actively worked against the Corps. As was previously stated in the thread, the whole of the Corps will suffer for a few shitbirds.

It struck me when the Commandant said, "Marines, you're not helping me when you do things like this" (loosely quoted). He was truly disappointed... as many of us are.

I can't help but feel it is a result of a broader societal shift into a overly permissive mentality, that would lead to such UNSAT activity.


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## 81FO (Mar 11, 2017)

Teufel said:


> I would also submit that this problem likely extends well outside of the Marine Corps and a Facebook group and likely had tendrils reaching into every corner of the DOD.



Yes, you are correct. There are news reports that additional anonymous sites - supposedly you have to know the web address to access - exist and are linked to other US military brances.


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## Kraut783 (Mar 11, 2017)

heh, this has been going for years now in regular society, from sexting to nude selfies.......of course it's going to show up in the military services.


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## 81FO (Mar 11, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> heh, this has been going for years now in regular society, from sexting to nude selfies.......of course it's going to show up in the military services.



Understood, but as a professional fighting force and all that comes with the oath, a highier standard is expected & required.

As Teufel stated, the perspective is not the reality. Unfortunately the inevitable response will be gaged on the false perspective that it is a larger problem.

Reality is social media is a double edged sword...


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## Kraut783 (Mar 11, 2017)

True, but the ones who are doing this are not the professional part of the forces.....we have all come across them.


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## kb2012 (Mar 11, 2017)

They've been briefing us about that here at OCS and telling us we better stay away from pages like that. They're taking it very seriously here.


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## 81FO (Mar 11, 2017)

kb2012 said:


> They've been briefing us about that here at OCS and telling us we better stay away from pages like that. They're taking it very seriously here.



Thanks for the input. Glad to here, but would expect nothing less.

Best of Luck!


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## Kraut783 (Mar 11, 2017)

if you are in government services, military, intelligence, law enforcement....etc....get off social media sites, period.  It will bring you nothing but trouble, or make your personal / family safety vulnerable.  If you _NEED _to have a social site to stay connected to family....lock down the security and make your "page" as vanilla as possible.

But, I digress, we have beat this horse to death before.....


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## Marauder06 (Mar 11, 2017)

Situation reminds me of this article:  “_The only people who understand veterans are other veterans, and they all hate each other.” _


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## Gunz (Mar 11, 2017)

Il Duce said:


> I think the scope of this is also significant - though not surprising.  30k current and former Marines (isn't the corps only like 300k active?) is a pretty sizeable chunk of a small organization...



Actually sir, about 180,000 active. I don't think the Corps has had 300,000 active duty Marines since WW2. But that just reinforces the point your making. 30,000 is indeed a sizeable chunk of 180k.


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## Il Duce (Mar 12, 2017)

Ocoka One said:


> Actually sir, about 180,000 active. I don't think the Corps has had 300,000 active duty Marines since WW2. But that just reinforces the point your making. 30,000 is indeed a sizeable chunk of 180k.



Good to know, I was thinking 200k then I thought - that can't be right can it?  I think they'll find in the investigation - as has already been stated here - 'Marines United' and sites like it will have plenty of non-Marines, non-servicemembers, and members of other services to round out that 30k.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Mar 12, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> if you are in government services, military, intelligence, law enforcement....etc....get off social media sites, period.  It will bring you nothing but trouble, or make your personal / family safety vulnerable.  If you _NEED _to have a social site to stay connected to family....lock down the security and make your "page" as vanilla as possible.



Agree......


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## AWP (Mar 12, 2017)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Agree......



No. The real takeaway from that comic is everyone in the CIA wears sunglasses indoors.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Mar 12, 2017)

AWP said:


> No. The real takeaway from that comic is everyone in the CIA wears sunglasses indoors.



Those glasses are computers that download files they need tied directly into their brains....teaching them key languages like Russian, Arabic and critical skills like Karate, hot wiring a car!  I saw it on a documentary called "Chuck"....


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## JohnBender (Mar 13, 2017)

Quick anecdote from  last night that highlights my eventual point. 

So, I'm on a consulting business trip to Germany and last night I'm sitting in a hotel bar with a few classmates.  I am an enlisted infantry Marine veteran, and there are three other classmates with me - one is an Army infantry officer and  one is a full time mba who we know and like very much. The third person is a part time MBA who I feel. and the other two feel, is a real turd burglar. Just to fuck with him, I introduce myself as my army friend and give his background as my own, and he does the same with me. We keep throwing digs at eachother, basically using this guy as a medium to give eachother shit as friends. He gets up to take a piss, and this guy says 

"Man, those Marines are real animals." 

Of course I goad him on, making him talk all the shit he feels about Marines to me, the actual Marine ( My other friend was just dying laughing at all of this). He proceeds to basically say the Marine Corps is terrifying, that we are no better than caged animals, that we should be psych evaled upon return to civilian life, that the Army should just absorb the Marine Corps anyway, and that he thinks Marines are basically just dumb killing machines that serve the corporate greed of America. 

He pointed out these things about my friend, whom he thought was the Marine, to me who he thought was a West Point educated, sophisticated and cultured, Army Officer. He then asked both of us which one of us got to see more people die, and I asked him if has ever got the opportunity to be choked on a German hotel bar floor. That's besides the point, but I thought it was funny - he did not. 

The point here is, people think Marines are animals as it stands. That's not a bad thing. Having the global public afraid of what the Marines can be is psychological, and not based on the people themselves within that branch. I would rather have the enemy shit themselves if they heard we were coming, and I don't care if that is based on the mangled bodies we have left in our wake, or the rumor of them. 

 I spoke to this guy in the most crude, disgusting way possible and my friend spoke to him in his normal, neutral tone. Yet, that didn't matter. He still told me that my friend should be monitored and kept tabs on, because he was a Marine. Nothing of what he saw changed his mind. 

What i'm getting at is: The public has its opinion on the Corps, and ultimately that is an opinion long standing based on the image of ferocious, inhuman warriors who would just as soon spike a baby on a bayonet as they would help an old lady across the street. The Corps is good at warfighting, but it's better at Branding and boy, has it done a good job of Branding the Corps in this image.

 "We don't promise you a rose garden" was a value proposition for enlistment once upon a time. Few services could end up with that as an effective recruitment tool. 

This scandal shocks exactly no one. But what it does do is make us apologize to the public, and that is where I don't appreciate the outcome. I think the sharing of these pictures is fucking disgusting, yet I'd be a hypocrite to satay I haven't shown half my platoon the treasure troves of tit/vag pics I've received over my years in. I think it's fucking dumb to have ano essentially open group to do this, and I think the harassment of women is a form of predatory bullshit and in many ways weakness when being challenged about it. Posting people's information online for harassment is a form of passive aggressiveness that I hate, and has no place in the military in general. I think sharing nudes is normal, but the actions and forum in which it was done is dumber than normal. Marines are best served by flying under the radar. Forcing us to apologize to the world makes us look weak, and that ruins the mystique of the Corps. 

The people responsible should be held accountable. That's just how it is. I think many of the people, especially in the Corps currently, who are lighting torches and holding pitchforks are hypocrites. I'm not saying that of this forum, and especially of the people in this thread. I read a lot and I think this community is consistent and honest. I'm talking about the media outlash and those outspoken Marines and Marine Vets. This scandal is a chance for people to harness attention and / or say "No not me I'm so much better than that". That makes me sick.

Now onto your point about gender....

Who cares? I am conflicted about women in combat Arms because on one hand, I don't think when life if on the line regularly, that fair and equal is ever a consideration. On the other hand, I feel that anyone who wants to hump a 240 and spray the enemy with outbound fire should be available to do so. I like the idea of separate battalions, where a 100 pound woman can realistically carry another 100 pound woman off the battlefield, and that logistical considerations would be consistent. that's a hard sell, and no one likes that option publicly because for some reason it's more PC to either hate women in the infantry than it is to advocate for segregation. 

Whatever. You're talking about boot camp and honestly, that's like...the least of anyone's concern. Perhaps it's a reserve thing, but everyone I know who is a reservist cares about the boot camp thing, whereas most active duty feel nothing one way or a other about boot camp. As one of my reservist friends stated to me once  (in my words) "Boot camp and SOI are usually all we have, so it's all we know" 

I don't give a shit about coed boot camp, what I care about is a fighting force that's known for being brutal and can back that up with brutality. This scandal hurts both. Women in the rack next to men at boot camp does not. Women in the fighting hole next to a man might, but no one here knows - we only staple our perspectives onto the idea and call it a fact. Hell, It worked for the mobile infantry and they conquered some of the ugliest bug planets in the universe.


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## Gunz (Mar 13, 2017)

Mireen hav trubel reeding qwik anikdot.


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## Queeg (Mar 13, 2017)

Ocoka One said:


> Mireen hav trubel reeding qwik anikdot.


 Ayyy Marin, slivr bulit n chil?

On a serious note, I'm surprised it took this long for the "Marines United" story to break.  Nude selfies of service members spread like wildfire around the time of OEF/OIF.  You can hold all the mandatory briefing sessions you want, but ultimately you're fighting against a cultural acceptance (by males and females) that it's OK to create and distribute these kinds of images, and it's not really a big deal whether you consented to their release or not. I don't really have an answer to this except to teach kids of what happens when they're indiscriminate with who they share their naughty bits with.


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## JohnBender (Mar 13, 2017)

Ocoka One said:


> Mireen hav trubel reeding qwik anikdot.



I think it's impossible for me to write less than 500 words at this point.

Also I thought you were typing German at first...and copied your message to put into Google translator. Maybe I am dumb.


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## CDG (Mar 13, 2017)

Article from the MC Times about what the likely fallout will be.  At the end of the day, not much.

Prosecuting Marines over nude photo scandal could be difficult


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## Marauder06 (Mar 13, 2017)

They don't have to get prosecuted, there's plenty that can be done administratively if need be.


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## Il Duce (Mar 13, 2017)

Queeg said:


> On a serious note, I'm surprised it took this long for the "Marines United" story to break.  Nude selfies of service members spread like wildfire around the time of OEF/OIF.  You can hold all the mandatory briefing sessions you want, but ultimately you're fighting against a cultural acceptance (by males and females) that it's OK to create and distribute these kinds of images, and it's not really a big deal whether you consented to their release or not. I don't really have an answer to this except to teach kids of what happens when they're indiscriminate with who they share their naughty bits with.



I don't think the reaction by leaders is about sharing nude pictures, or pictures of hot women in general - though that's not in the best taste/judgment on a site with linkages to military service.

It's about the fact current/former Marines were stalking, posting about, threatening/cajoling/cat-calling/making derogatory statements about other Marines and servicemembers.  Meanwhile other Marines (and others) were either actively cheering them on, or passively consuming the content and not saying shit.

If you're the leader of any organization and find out your troops are engaged in victimizing their fellow troops - or see it being done and aren't doing anything about it - that's going to disturb you.  If it's in relation to something like sexual harassment or sexual assault - where the services have invested massive resources in training and making the case those aren't endemic to service values - you've got a huge problem.

I think everyone is entitled to their personal views.  In your heart you can be as racist, sexist, homophobic, transphobic, or whatever other prejudice you want to have.  But, as a leader in the armed services you have the responsibility to care for, protect, and defend your fellow servicemembers period.  As a leader I would question the ability of someone to serve if they engage in this type of behavior - or stand by while others do.


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## 81FO (Mar 13, 2017)

JohnBender said:


> Quick anecdote from  last night that highlights my eventual point.
> 
> So, I'm on a consulting business trip to Germany and last night I'm sitting in a hotel bar with a few classmates.  I am an enlisted infantry Marine veteran, and there are three other classmates with me - one is an Army infantry officer and  one is a full time mba who we know and like very much. The third person is a part time MBA who I feel. and the other two feel, is a real turd burglar. Just to fuck with him, I introduce myself as my army friend and give his background as my own, and he does the same with me. We keep throwing digs at eachother, basically using this guy as a medium to give eachother shit as friends. He gets up to take a piss, and this guy says
> 
> ...






JohnBender, Thank you for your reply. I concede your point, but I think you miss interpreted my original post. Understandable when taking into account the brevity of my post, it is the nature of discussion in an internet forum. My focus on the integration of women recruits into the ranks of male recruits is solely due to the founder of “not-in-my-marine-corps” asserting that the lack there of, is the reason for, as Teufel refuted, “a symptom of a larger Marine Corps misogynistic culture”. I due take issue with someone lobbying for change based on a political agenda to justify changing something for the sake of change. It is an ideology that has taken root and not logic. If the solution were that simple why is it still an issue in the Big Army? The other branches were found dealing in the same Crap!

I will counter your assessment that integrating boot camp doesn’t matter, it does as much if not more than MCT/SOI/SOI-E Combat Hunter training. Boot camp is the INDOC for all Marines; moreover, you don’t earn the title until you complete those phases. In fact you kinda make my point for me in your post when you write of the perception associated with Marines as a fighting force- in your words “The point here is, people think Marines are animals as it stands.” I remind you _Teufel Hunden_ was a moniker earned in WWI, and was the result of, IMO from training which started at boot camp. Sure the other training is viewed to be the “meat & potatoes” being a Marine, but boot camp lays the foundation of which to build the foundation on. I agree that the enigma of potential savagery that could befall battlefield adversaries at the hands of Marines is a force multiplier. All of that is useless if unit apathy is in the tank.  My interest in this is strictly in response to the afore mentioned premise… Personally I feel the USMC has, for the most part, been pretty damn good at producing in the immortal words of Lt.Gen. Chesty Puller “Hit hard, hit fast, hit often” Marines. You also stated that gender / sex doesn’t matter “I feel… anyone who wants to hump a 240… should be available to do so.”, I generally agree with that view as long as the Marine is able. By that I mean the Marine male or female has to be _Able_ to adequately meet the required standard, _the same standard_. As I stated in a previous post to Lefty375 I have no issue with integration so long as the standards are upheld and the “goose” has to do the same as the “gander”. Currently in the Corps the female standard is less than the male standard, that IMO does nothing to engender equality.If there is a hardass female who can meet the same standard as her male peers I say stick a rifle in her hand and Gung Ho!! It is a non-issue we agree, I think?

As for you implying that my concern in this is based on some perceived inadequacy because I served in the USMCR is insulting, despite your intent. Last I checked the training is the same no matter what division.

I am resolute in my assessment that without standards being the same for both sexes the desired outcome is a dream, respect is earned not given.


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## Gunz (Mar 14, 2017)

Administrative and judicial aside, it's my understanding that military members can file lawsuits against other members of the military, and I would expect some of these female Marines to take civil action of some kind.


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## 81FO (Mar 14, 2017)

Ocoka One said:


> Administrative and judicial aside, it's my understanding that military members can file lawsuits against other members of the military, and I would expect some of these female Marines to take civil action of some kind.



& they should.


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## CDG (Mar 16, 2017)

Pretty good read from Task & Purpose.

The Rise And Fall (And Rise) Of ‘Marines United’


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## 81FO (Mar 16, 2017)

Well it has gone beyond "guys" behaving badly to pure Dickheads with sinister intentions, the original fb page was administratively shutdown. So what does the douche bag who started the page do? He creates another page calling it "MU 2.0", then proceeds to transfer the data / media to the new page and taunts those reporting on the issue. Once again the "MU 2.0" page is shutdown, three guesses what happens next? Yeah, other members start a third page and yes call it "MU 3.0".

They need to find the douches & show no mercy. What a waste of organic matter! They win the DICK o' the Year award!!!


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## ThunderHorse (Apr 6, 2017)

So, to be honest, this is shit, but also hilarious in a poor sort of way: Russians may now control the trove of photos showing naked U.S. troops


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