# Knife Sharpening suggestions



## The91Bravo (Jan 16, 2008)

I need your help.

I have had some low to mid quality blades throughout my life, so sharpening was 'as good as I could do' so I would just try my best.

I would like to get better quality blades to USE, so I would like to learn to sharpen them better.

SO, I have two questions/scenarios.

1.  For my regular quality knives, using just a whetstone/oilstone, what can I do to get consistent smooth sharpening done. (little to no investment, just tips on doing it right)

2.  If I do start to invest in some better knives or kitchen cutlery, what devices should I look at to sharpen professionally.(mid to upper investment in new devices/equipment to use)

I had a lansky multi stone (multi colored with clamp and rod) years ago, but it was 'acquired' when the ex hauled ass with all my shit....

Thanks in advance,
Steve

p.s. xSFmed, with all those knives, what do you use??


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## rangerpsych (Jan 16, 2008)

Get a lansky system again, I use ours for all knives from 20$ walmart blades to the wife's 350$ kitchen knives and my 450$ combat/hunting knives.


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## 8'Duece (Jan 16, 2008)

What type of steel ??


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## x SF med (Jan 16, 2008)

An Oregon Logger turned knife designer, An Oregon Biker turned knife designer,  and a South African knife designer/manufacturer told me the same thing when I asked the knife sharpening questions...  The answer (s)  for accurate quick sharpening - the small Smith's pull sharpener, for when you have time (or extremely rugged steel) - the DMT 6" red/blue (works excellenly for the GB/Yarborough).

Oh, yeah the terrible trio that gave me this advice... Harsey, Onion and Reeve - sounds like a law firm, doesn't it?

look at Badlands forums too - Mick Strider / Ken Onion /Ken Brock  own/manage/ are represented there.


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## 8'Duece (Jan 16, 2008)

x SF med said:


> An Oregon Logger turned knife designer, An Oregon Biker turned knife designer,  and a South African knife designer/manufacturer told me the same thing when I asked the knife sharpening questions...  The answer (s)  for accurate quick sharpening - the small Smith's pull sharpener, for when you have time (or extremely rugged steel) - the DMT 6" red/blue (works excellenly for the GB/Yarborough).
> 
> Oh, yeah the terrible trio that gave me this advice... Harsey, Onion and Reeve - sounds like a law firm, doesn't it?
> 
> look at Badlands forums too - Mick Strider / Ken Onion /Ken Brock  own/manage/ are represented there.



If you really wanna get yourself confused on knife sharpening, then just look at the thread with title over at PS.COM............................it's still taking a year to read all the information. :doh:


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## Hard H2O (Jan 16, 2008)

I have a GATCO kit. It is similar to the Lansky with, IMHO, a few advantages.
The stones are wider.
The rods simply pull out.
The angles are 11°, 15°, 19°, 22°, 25°, and 30° versus the 17°, 20°, 25°, and 30° of the Lansky.

I added the extra fine and the ultimate finishing stones. They put a wicked edge on a blade in no time.

I then further refine with leather strops and white and red polishing compound.

Once you have an sharp edge maintenance is the key. I am able to use the two finest hones if an edge is dulled followed by the strop. For really minor maintenance the strop is all that is needed.

I can do all but the narrowest blades with the GATCO. A very narrow SAK blade would not work. It was not mine it was a buddies. Other than that there is not a knife I own that has not been successfully sharpened on the GATCO. I have sharpened a number of knives for others and they have been pleased by the edge that it produces.

I do 15°on my kitchen cutlery and they all slice really nice. Other knives edge angles are determined on a case by case basis.

Here are a couple of forums with a lot of good info and some really knowledgeable guys:

Blade Forums: Maintenance, Tinkering & Embellishment

Knife Forums: Keeping Sharp


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## Hard H2O (Jan 16, 2008)

I forgot to mention ease of use. Out of the box I was sharpening every knife in the house. Ramp up time was very short.

The GATCO is relatively inexpensive versus the other rod guided systems.

If you are looking to spend a few more bucks look at the Edge Pro Professional and Apex units. The are touted as the top of the line of the rod guided systems. They are a bit bigger and cost a bit more though. I like the space that the GATCO takes up. I can fit all of my sharpening kit in a small bin.


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## The91Bravo (Jan 16, 2008)

Hard water,

is this the model???

http://cgi.ebay.com/Gatco-Knife-Sha...yZ116005QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## Hard H2O (Jan 16, 2008)

The91Bravo said:


> Hard water,
> 
> is this the model???
> 
> http://cgi.ebay.com/Gatco-Knife-Sha...yZ116005QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem



Yep that is the model I have. That is the Professional kit. I prefer traditional stones. They have kits with diamond hones.

I got mine through Cabela's. The stand (GATCO® Easy-Grip™ Clamp Mount) comes with free from Cabela's. I would not want to use it without the stand. Just something to keep in mind.







http://www.gatcosharpeners.com/

GATCO Sharpeners from Cabela's


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## Hard H2O (Jan 16, 2008)

You have to be a little bit cautious about scratches from the clamp. I have not had too much trouble with it. All of my knives are users and have scratches and nicks from use so I do not take any precautions with my own knives. With knives I have done for others I have used masking tape to aleviate the worry that I might scratch someone elses gear.


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## JBS (Jan 17, 2008)

Tried to order from Cabelas.

They're on backorder.

Apparently, although I could find the SAME set cheaper elsewhere, nobody else seems to be offering the clamp-stand, and the shipping via Cabelas seems to be cheapest.

Anyone been able to find a better deal, please let us know :)


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## The91Bravo (Jan 17, 2008)

JBS,

here's one

http://cgi.ebay.com/DIAMOND-KNIFE-S...ryZ66826QQssPageNameZWDVWQQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem


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## The91Bravo (Jan 17, 2008)

Thanks for all the tips.

Does anyone have suggestions for basic stone sharpening??  Not the kits mentioned but just a good old whetstone..

Thanks again
Steve


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## Hard H2O (Jan 17, 2008)

The91Bravo said:


> Thanks for all the tips.
> 
> Does anyone have suggestions for basic stone sharpening??  Not the kits mentioned but just a good old whetstone..
> 
> ...



I use a three stone Arkansas setup. Hard, medium and soft stones. They are arranged in a triangular fashion and sit in a vee block. I use oil on them.

If you go to the bladeforums.com maintenance section and the knifeforums.com keeping sharp section and do some searches you will find lots of threads on freehand sharpening.


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## JBS (Jan 17, 2008)

Thanks 91B.


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## pardus (Jan 17, 2008)

The problem with freehand sharpening is getting the angle right.

I can't do it properly, I use one of those fixed ange whodackys.

Mates back home who worked in slaughter houses could get a blade honed wonderfully with a sharpening steel.


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## Hard H2O (Jan 17, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> The problem with freehand sharpening is getting the angle right.
> 
> I can't do it properly, I use one of those fixed ange whodackys.
> 
> Mates back home who worked in slaughter houses could get a blade honed wonderfully with a sharpening steel.



A steel is not a sharpening device unless it is a diamond steel.

An edge will roll over a bit with use. A steel aligns the edge. A steel can lengthen the useful life of an edge but is not a replacement for sharpening.

I have learned a lot about sharpening from the two forums I posted above. One of the most important things I have learned is that the precise angle is not critical. It is nice to be able to repeat angles using the guide but even on a single blade and using a guide the angle will vary from heel to tip. 

Some experienced sharpeners proclaim that a convex edge is the sharpest and most durable. In a convex edge there is no angle. It is a continuous transition from edge to flat. I have heard it said that even the best freehand sharpeners get some sort of convex edge due to it being impossible to maintain the exact perfect angle from stroke to stroke.

I have been using the GATCO for a while. I was told that I would learn a lot about sharpening and edge geometry from using the rod guided system. They were right. I recently succesfully sharpend a few knives freehand on the Arkansas tri-hone. It was really satisfying.

The most important thing I have learned is something that is readily apparent. To sharpen a blade you scrape steel against a stone and try to have the two edge bevels meet in as thin of an edge as you can get. You need to remove steel so that this occurs. It is best to remove as little steel as possible. Coarse stones work faster and remove a lot of metal. Then you move to the next finest to remove the marks from the coarse stone and to refine the edge. You proceed untill the two edges meet and the edge is as refined as you wish. Some stop with a medium stone. Some continue through finer stones and onto polishing tapes.

One of the most important tools in my sharpening kit is a sharpie marker. I mark the edge bevel on both sides. If I am removing marker from the shoulder of the edge my angle is to low. If I am removing marker from the very edge my angle is to high. If I am removing marker from the entire edge bevel I am right on. This is also useful for changing the angle of an edge. Mark the edge and you can see where you are removing material from.

Here is something from another thread on a different forum:
_There are those who sharpen just enough to get the job done.

There are those to whome sharpening is the hobby and there is no end to tinkering and aquiring equipment and stones to take an edge to the next level.

Then there is somewhere in between.

I am somewhere in between. I can get a blade sharp enough to do the job and then take refine it a little more. I like to fish, hunt, cook... My knives are all working knives. No safe queens or blades that get sharpened just to sharpen them and then sit.

You can take it any direction you choose. _


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## JBS (Jan 30, 2008)

^^^
*
I tried the sharpie marker trick, using my old stones.*

It really works, just as you said, and it also showed me where I had screwed up several spots on the blade from previous sharpening jobs.

Thanks for the tip!!!


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## Hard H2O (Jan 30, 2008)

JoeBlackSpade said:


> ^^^
> *
> I tried the sharpie marker trick, using my old stones.*
> 
> ...



No problem. 

It is probably the single most useful tool I have in the sharpening kit. It does show you problem spots, shows you how far you have to go when changing angles and tells you if you are over or under when matching angles.


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## The91Bravo (Feb 4, 2008)

I am six hours away from winning a sharpening set and stand....

What angle do I use for the M9 Lan-Cay Bayonet??

I don't want to jack up a new knife..


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## Hard H2O (Feb 4, 2008)

The91Bravo said:


> I am six hours away from winning a sharpening set and stand....
> 
> What angle do I use for the M9 Lan-Cay Bayonet??
> 
> I don't want to jack up a new knife..




I would use the sharpie method and use whatever angle already exists.

A bayonet is not made for slicing anyway. It is made for stabbing. To do what they are designed to do they do not need to be really sharp. They just need a good point.

I would not carry the M9 and expect it to cut well. I would probably get a different knife for slicing and dicing.

What are your expectations for the use of the M9? If you are just going to look at it and not carry it I would not even bother sharpening it.


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## Kurt V (Feb 4, 2008)

All I have ever used is my set of Arkansas stones. They seem to get the job done.


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## The91Bravo (Feb 4, 2008)

Hard H2O said:


> I would use the sharpie method and use whatever angle already exists.



Good idea, thanks



Hard H2O said:


> A bayonet is not made for slicing anyway. It is made for stabbing. To do what they are designed to do they do not need to be really sharp. They just need a good point.



I don't plan on using it for CQB, but want it to be a good slicing knife.



Hard H2O said:


> I would not carry the M9 and expect it to cut well. I would probably get a different knife for slicing and dicing.



I am starting to collect knives now, .. but $$$$ ... eventually I'll get a Randall or something of that caliber



Hard H2O said:


> What are your expectations for the use of the M9? If you are just going to look at it and not carry it I would not even bother sharpening it.



I intend on having it become my primary hunting knife.. and I don't want it to be a safe queen... 

Thanks for the advice, and questions.. I appreciate it..

Most of my knives had 'China' on the shank.. lol


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## Hard H2O (Feb 4, 2008)

The91Bravo said:


> Good idea, thanks
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I would start with the angle on it as is. If it is not going to be a "safe queen" then it might be a good one to try some different angles on. Start as is and then go shallower.

If it is going to be a user then a few scratches shouldn't hurt. 

Not to rain on your parade but there are a lot better choices for a hunting knife. That knife will not do any of the hunting related tasks that you ask of it. Pretty much any inexpensive hunting knife would be a better choice.

What are you going to be chasing?

I have a custom and a Buck 103 for whitetail hunting.


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## The91Bravo (Feb 4, 2008)

It is for Boar... nothing less .. nothing more.... 

If they get too close, then I can fix bayonets.. 

But their hide is some tough shit.  Like cutting a wet football.....

Thanks for the info, man I appreciate it....

p.s. those knives look like they will work quite well... and have done so... I love a tool that gets used right...

S


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## x SF med (Feb 4, 2008)

The91Bravo said:


> I intend on having it become my primary hunting knife.. and I don't want it to be a safe queen...



Bad idea - wrong type of steel - you'll be sharpening constantly - it's made to not be brittle - it'll dull very easily and chip.




The91Bravo said:


> Most of my knives had 'China' on the shank.. lol



Spend the money on a good knife, a really good knife.  You will notice the difference in usability and in holding the edge, and ease of sharpening.


You don't even want to know what my knife collection is worth - and I don't have any safe queens - even the signed ones get used.


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## The91Bravo (Feb 4, 2008)

x SF med said:


> You don't even want to know what my knife collection is worth - and I don't have any safe queens - even the signed ones get used.



I remember the pics in the other thread....  awesome set of steel


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## Hard H2O (Feb 5, 2008)

x SF med said:


> Bad idea - wrong type of steel - you'll be sharpening constantly - it's made to not be brittle - it'll dull very easily and chip.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Very soft from what I understand. 

Like most things it is a compromise. 

A lot of cheap knives are soft and sharpen very well and quickly but dull fast and do not hold an edge. 

Some spendier knives are better steel with a better heat treat and hold an edge but are a pain to sharpen.

I have heard guys say they like a knife they can quickly sharpen in the field. So softer is better for them.

Others like a blade that is a bit harder and holds an edge until they can do a proper sharpening.

I have never had to do a field sharpening on a blade other than my fillet knives.


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## JBS (Feb 27, 2008)

Just got my Lansky system in.

I started with a few kitchen knives.  My wife was given a set of Henkels, but we hadn't sharpened them in a while, so I took out the bigass chef knife out of the set- probably the dullest- and got to it.

From what I understand, the thick gauge chef knives have more of a utility design, and as a result the angle is far steeper- for getting through bones, etc.  That being said, it was so easy to get a razor's edge on it.

I had about enough energy to sharpen three other knives, including my Victorinox SA fishing knife.

Looking forward to getting an edge on my Timberline SpecWar, but I wanted to practice on a few other knives first.

For anyone looking into this, I definitely give the Lansky my two thumbs up.

Thanks to all the previous posters for the great tips on this kit.


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## The91Bravo (Feb 28, 2008)

Got my Gatco set, and man oh man.. it made life so much easier.  takes some time to get the first and perfect edge, but I imagine the re-sharpening will go much more easy.

You all rock, and I again appreciate the sage advice..

Steve


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## Typhoon (Feb 28, 2008)

> An Oregon Logger turned knife designer, An Oregon Biker turned knife designer, and a South African knife designer/manufacturer told me...


Those three guys must have a lot of interesting tales to tell, xSF...

I have a Spyderco system that has three sets of triangle ceramic shaped rods that mount into a resin base. There are two brass rods on the outside of the unit that protect your hands. You can use the flat edges of the ceramic rods or the angled edges, effectively giving you six grades of sharpening surfaces. In addition if you have scalloped blades as I do the angled edges of the ceramic gets right into the concave surfaces for good sharpening. The ceramic rods fit into the base at an angle, so if you keep the knife blades upright they sharpen at just the right angle. You don't need any oil or other liquids, and ceramic clean up is easy with a regular dishpan type scrubbie.

It is an excellent sharpening system for a knife dummy like me...


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## Hard H2O (Feb 28, 2008)

With those systems it is easy to get a knife sharp. I have the GATCO.

I added the extra fine and ultimate finishing hones to the kit. I highly recommend picking up the finer stones for either the GATCO or the Lansky. The two finer hones will gove you a more refined and polished edge.

I also do a stropping step. You can buy leather bench strops and chromium oxide or diamond pastes for stropping. I use leather scrap I bought at Tandy and cut to size. I use white and red polishing compound I got from Sears. I crayon on the compound on the leather and with the strop flat on the bench I use an edge trailing stroke. After stropping I have a very refined and nicely polished edge. It is beyond shaving sharp.

Do not be afraid to take your knives a bit shallower than the factory edge. the thiner the bevel the nicer they will slice. You can always experiment and find the angles that work for particular knives.

Make sure that everyone that might use them understands that they are sharp. 

Ensure that you have enough knife friendly cutting boards. No glass and no cutting right on a ceramic plate.

I took my 8" santuko and my 10" Chicago chef's down to 11° with the GATCO. They are incredible slicers now. I took all the paring, the boning, the fillet, and the 5" santuko down to 15°. They cut like lasers.


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## Hard H2O (Feb 28, 2008)

Typhoon said:


> Those three guys must have a lot of interesting tales to tell, xSF...
> 
> I have a Spyderco system that has three sets of triangle ceramic shaped rods that mount into a resin base.




From what I understand the Spyderco Sharpmaker is great for knives that just need maintenance or are not too dull. I know a few guys that own one in addition to a rod guided system. I believe that you can flip the base upside sown and insert a couple of rods side by side and use it like a bench stone.

I use the extra fins and ultimate finishing stones plus the strop for maintenance.

Look into adding a stropping routine to your Spyderco kit. You can even refine the edge that comes off one of those.


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## pardus (Feb 28, 2008)

Hard H2O said:


> A bayonet is not made for slicing anyway. It is made for stabbing. To do what they are designed to do they do not need to be really sharp. They just need a good point..



Maybe in your Army.
We slashed as well.

The Last really good bayonet blade ive seen was made in 1888.

http://www.arms2armor.com/Bayonets/brit1888.htm


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## Hard H2O (Feb 28, 2008)

Hard H2O   said:
			
		

> A bayonet is not made for slicing anyway. It is made for stabbing. To do what they are designed to do they do not need to be really sharp. They just need a good point..





pardus762 said:


> Maybe in your Army.
> We slashed as well.
> 
> The Last really good bayonet blade ive seen was made in 1888.
> ...



You are correct. I have never had to fix a bayonet in advance of actually needing it in combat.

If you will read my post again I wrote slicing not slashing. Slashing is different than the precision slicing required to field dress and butcher game animals.


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## pardus (Feb 28, 2008)

Hard H2O said:


> You are correct. I have never had to fix a bayonet in advance of actually needing it in combat.
> 
> If you will read my post again I wrote slicing not slashing. Slashing is different than the precision slicing required to field dress and butcher game animals.



Slash, Slice, it all sucks on the recieving end! lol

You are correct, I misinterpreted your wording.

Personally, I want to carry a bayonet that will act as both a bayonet and a good field/utility knife, e.g. a K-Bar bayonet


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## Hard H2O (Feb 28, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> Slash, Slice, it all sucks on the recieving end! lol
> 
> You are correct, I misinterpreted your wording.
> 
> Personally, I want to carry a bayonet that will act as both a bayonet and a good field/utility knife, e.g. a K-Bar bayonet



You could probably take an existing bayonet and grind the blade into pretty much whatever shape and thickness you desire.


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## JBS (Feb 29, 2008)

> Do not be afraid to take your knives a bit shallower than the factory edge. the thiner the bevel the nicer they will slice.



That's what I'm going to have to do with a couple of knives I have.

Could you recommend a good way to actually grind down a very dull blade?

I was thinking of just going ahead and buying a very, very coarse stone, but this seems really labor intensive- especially with numerous, or very long blades.

Any shortcuts, or should I just grab a 6-pack of brew, and make an hour's work of it?


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## Hard H2O (Feb 29, 2008)

JoeBlackSpade said:


> That's what I'm going to have to do with a couple of knives I have.
> 
> Could you recommend a good way to actually grind down a very dull blade?
> 
> ...



Guys on the sharpening forums recommend the DMT extra coarse diamond stones and lots of elbow grease.  

I use the extra coarse stone on the GATCO and the same elbow grease. Sometimes I thin an angle out in two or three sessions. I will start grinding away on the shoulder of the bevel but not finish the reprofile but instead finish by sharpening at the original angle. In two or three sharpening sessions it will be at the new shallower angle.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 29, 2008)

The only time I've ever used a knife in combat was to open an MRE or slice 550 cord.  When deployed, I carry a small folder in my pocket (thanks Rick!) and a small fixed blade on my body armor.  The bayonet stays in the armory.


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## pardus (Feb 29, 2008)

Marauder06 said:


> The bayonet stays in the armory.



:doh:   

Well I guess you are MI but still.....

E.G.  I read an article of a Marine unit surrounded and cut off in Iraq, they ran out of ammo, the officer in charge ordered them to pull out their knives to defend themselves!

I was like WTF!? you are such a dumbass you'd leave behind your bayonets and allow your men to fight H2H when they could be adding another couple of feet between them and the enemy with a bayonet and the rifle as a weapon? 

This is an area of training where I think the US military has it wrong. :2c:


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## x SF med (Feb 29, 2008)

JoeBlackSpade said:


> That's what I'm going to have to do with a couple of knives I have.
> 
> Could you recommend a good way to actually grind down a very dull blade?
> 
> ...




A 10" Mill Bastard (file) a good angle, no beer till you are done - about an hour's work to get a good rough angle, then go after it with a good DMT diamond honing set (blue and red)


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## JBS (Mar 3, 2008)

I picked up a diamond hone, by the way.

That thing eats metal like nobody's business.

The only problem with it is it gets bogged down pretty quick, but is still does the job nicely.

I found it works better (and eats metal more agressively between wipe-downs) if I squirt it with lots of oil every couple'a minutes.


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## x SF med (Mar 4, 2008)

DMTs are designed to be dry wiped as they get 'gunked'.  For quick sharpening, try the Smith's Quick Sharp (small yellow, one side carbide, one side ceramic - good angle every time, sharp as shit).

Those are all I use any more - ask Eight Deuce about the guys who recommended them...  plus those same guys will put a factory edge on any knife I own, if I bring beer, and maybe some Elk or Bison, or a cheesecake.:doh:


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## Hard H2O (Mar 4, 2008)

x SF med said:


> DMTs are designed to be dry wiped as they get 'gunked'.  For quick sharpening, try the Smith's Quick Sharp (small yellow, one side carbide, one side ceramic - good angle every time, sharp as shit).
> 
> Those are all I use any more - ask Eight Deuce about the guys who recommended them...  plus those same guys will put a factory edge on any knife I own, if I bring beer, and maybe some Elk or Bison, or a cheesecake.:doh:



I would never drag a blade through a carbide scraper.


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## pardus (Mar 4, 2008)

Why not? Please Inform the ignorant among us, Cheers.


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## Hard H2O (Mar 4, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> Why not? Please Inform the ignorant among us, Cheers.



From what I have heard and seen the carbide scrapers are just that. They scrape material from the sides of the bevel. Use them much and they will shorten the useful life of a blade.

I know guys that use them and are happy with the edges. They do quickly rebevel a blade and expose new metal. That comes at a cost. 

I prefer to remove as little metal as possible to allow the two edge bevels meet.

The ceramic type pull throughs are okay if the angle on the knife matches the angle on the ceramic to start. That is why they sometimes come with a carbide type. The carbide scrapes the angle to match and the ceramic refines the edge.

I am not saying that they do not work. they do seem to improve a dull edge. It will decrease blade life and give you a rough almost serrated edge. If that is what you are after than you are good to go. 

I prefer a more polished refined edge while extending edge life. I maintain my edges with a less destructive process. I use the extra fine and ceramic hones from the GATCO if needed and a leather strop. Once you have a good edge maintenance is the key to extending edge life and reducing the need for material removal to restore an edge.


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## rangerpsych (Mar 4, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> :doh:
> 
> Well I guess you are MI but still.....
> 
> ...



We brought them along, but I never, ever, had one on my kit other than for Change of command and EIB.

Then again, I carried a belt fed weapon with a barrel that was rather handy as a club if removed, a 18" tip to pommel tanto, a 6" blade tanto, and a couple smaller folders all stashed throughout various pieces of kit.

If I had wire that needed cutting, we had wire cutters for that. Plus when 3 out of 4 weapons in a fire team didn't have the capacity to be able to mount a bayonet anyway due to primary weapon systems or simply not having a bayonet lug... it's dumb to haul it along.

Besides, when I could bean someone at 10 yards with a frag....... lol


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## rangerpsych (Mar 4, 2008)

JoeBlackSpade said:


> I picked up a diamond hone, by the way.
> 
> That thing eats metal like nobody's business.
> 
> ...




inbetween casevacs in iraq I was known for being the Bn knife guru, sitting listening to the satcom while making the edges of my comrades knives stupidsharp while they were back for a day refitting... Even giving them spare dip.

I just used the rough stone on my gatco for the blades that were damn-near destroyed, and worked my way from there... I would soak the stone in CLP and wipe it off with a trashed tshirt I kept on my lap... then when I returned the knives I'd give a small list of don'ts for the guys to keep their blades working..

no matter how "cool" you think it looks, don't ever stab a knife into the ground. I'll punt you in the nuts.


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## pardus (Mar 4, 2008)

rangerpsych said:


> Plus when 3 out of 4 weapons in a fire team didn't have the capacity to be able to mount a bayonet anyway due to primary weapon systems or simply not having a bayonet lug... it's dumb to haul it along.



Can't argue with that.
If you cant use it, it's no good.


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## JBS (Mar 7, 2008)

We do train with them, though, Pardus- as you surely know.  Unfortunately, it seems to be one of those skills that gets put on the back burner, in favor of other things.

That brings to mind a highly respected unit that recently fixed bayonets on an enemy- was it in Iraq?

I am trying to recall... (goes looking for the article)


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## pardus (Mar 7, 2008)

JoeBlackSpade said:


> We do train with them, though, Pardus- as you surely know.  Unfortunately, it seems to be one of those skills that gets put on the back burner, in favor of other things.
> 
> That brings to mind a highly respected unit that recently fixed bayonets on an enemy- was it in Iraq?
> 
> I am trying to recall... (goes looking for the article)



There was a Brit unit that did it IIRC, Scottish maybe....

Yeah I know you guys train with them.


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## JBS (Mar 7, 2008)

I thought I had come across it before:

From *The Sun*, 17 May 2004:


OUTNUMBERED British soldiers killed 35 Iraqi attackers in the Army’s first bayonet charge since the Falklands War 22 years ago.

The fearless Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders stormed rebel positions after being ambushed and pinned down.

Despite being outnumbered five to one, they suffered only three minor wounds in the hand-to-hand fighting near the city of Amara.

The battle erupted after Land Rovers carrying 20 Argylls came under attack on a highway.

After radioing for back-up, they fixed bayonets and charged at 100 rebels using tactics learned in drills.

http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/article88661.ece


And, from the London Daily Mail:

THE Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders are coming home from Iraq next month. Twenty of their ranks, in unarmed Land Rovers, came under mortar and machinegun fire outside Amara in Iraq in May. They fought themselves out in classic fashion - with bayonets. Three of them were wounded, while more than 35 of their attackers were killed. These are the men who made the first bayonet charge by the British Army in 22 years. They may also be the men who have made the last British bayonet charge in history.

http://www.highbeam.com/doc/1G1-118463306.html


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## pardus (Mar 7, 2008)

....





> OUTNUMBERED British soldiers killed 35 Iraqi attackers in the Army’s first bayonet charge since the Falklands War 22 years ago.
> 
> The fearless Argyll and Sutherland Highlanders stormed rebel positions after being ambushed and pinned down.
> 
> ...


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## pardus (Mar 7, 2008)

LOL!!!


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## JBS (Mar 7, 2008)

That just warms my heart!


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## pardus (Mar 7, 2008)

> They may also be the men who have made the last British bayonet charge in history.



Ah, yes here is an article showing the effectiveness of a weapon and now we wont ever use it again 

People are stupid.


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## JBS (Mar 7, 2008)

In my opinion, it is feats of professional movement, skill, and bravery like these ole' boys that brings a reward that may last for decades.


When a particular group of trouble makers gets word- for example- that the Argylles are in town, it absolutely must have an impact.

There are but a handful of units out there, that receive instant respect when they set foot on any given territory- and a reputation like that saves lives in the long run.  Groups like outlaw militias (and the like) might be more likely to lay low, and refrain from making problems when such units are around.


This might sound strange, but this is why I am personally against using military in photo-ops with little kids, etc. in a careless way.


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## Typhoon (Mar 7, 2008)

> Ah, yes here is an article showing the effectiveness of a weapon and now we wont ever use it again...People are stupid.


I recall reading about this story a few months ago and it just reminds me of how, despite the technology, we are in many ways fighting a 19th Century type of war...

You have to be ready for all contingencies, and it sure looks like the highlanders had the right training and preparations for that one. It warms my highlander blood! :cool:


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## pardus (Mar 7, 2008)

JoeBlackSpade said:


> In my opinion, it is feats of professional movement, skill, and bravery like these ole' boys that brings a reward that may last for decades.
> 
> 
> When a particular group of trouble makers gets word- for example- that the Argylles are in town, it absolutely must have an impact.
> ...




Agreed, the Brit Paras patrolled in Northern Ireland without helmets wearing their berets to show who was in town! :cool:


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## JBS (Mar 7, 2008)

> despite the technology, we are in many ways fighting a 19th Century type of war...



Technology is great, until it doesn't work.

Then it's the death of you, unless you've trained to function without it.

Hence land nav training without GPS, and close-combat training (despite your rifle having a maximum effective range that exceeds punches and kicks:)).


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## Marauder06 (Mar 7, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> Ah, yes here is an article showing the effectiveness of a weapon and now we wont ever use it again
> 
> People are stupid.



The way I read that article, they fixed bayonets and attacked, that's different than actually killing someone with a bayonet.  Did they actually kill 35 people with bayonets, or did they fix bayonets, and fire and maneuver, killing the 35 with bullets?


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## pardus (Mar 7, 2008)

Marauder06 said:


> The way I read that article, they fixed bayonets and attacked, that's different than actually killing someone with a bayonet.  Did they actually kill 35 people with bayonets, or did they fix bayonets, and fire and maneuver, killing the 35 with bullets?



Point taken but the point is irrelevant to me.

Charging someone with a bayonet gives you the attacker an aggressive mindset and also has a psychological impact on the enemy.
That alone proves the worth of the weapon.

The Falklands war proved the effectiveness and more importantly the necessity of the bayonet in modern warfare.
Admittedly the use of the bayonet in a counter insurgency campaign is less likely than in a conventional conflict but then so is a tank...


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## JBS (Mar 7, 2008)

Even if all those dead were initially shot, I'm sure they got stuck too, to be sure.


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## JBS (Mar 7, 2008)

pardus762 said:
			
		

> Point taken but the point is irrelevant to me.



Can I make that my new sig line?


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## pardus (Mar 7, 2008)

JoeBlackSpade said:


> Can I make that my new sig line?



But of course! 



JoeBlackSpade said:


> Even if all those dead were initially shot, I'm sure they got stuck too, to be sure.



SOP for us.


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## billb (Sep 12, 2010)

I have the triangle Spyderco sharpening kit. What I don't like about it is, to clean, they recommend Comet and or a Scotch Brite pad. Do the other systems have to be maintained the same way? I can't picture someone in the field with Comet.


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## x SF med (Sep 13, 2010)

Holy Necro post, batman!

But , I have had the pleasure of going through a few more 'sessions' with my knife tutors and also from Wayne Goddard.

I still use the Lansky ceramic for quick sharpening - but have bben converted to using a norton 2 level stone - med/fine (grey and red) wth a good oil or simple green (believe it or not, Wayne Goddard's choice of lifting agent).

The sharpie trick is recommended by all.
All of them ' free hand' sharpen and recommend it - you can feel the work better.
Listen to the blade as it runs over the stone - you will hear the difference when the edge comes up.
Watch the lifting agent - you will see the metal powder lifting along the edge, and how 'dirty' it's getting.
Don't be afraid of pressure - but make sure it isw even along the entire side of the edge you are working on.
Work on one side of the edge at a time on the grit you need - evenly (6 passes one side, 6 passes the other) - and count the number of passes - use the same amount on both sides.
Stones work on forward or backward passes - don't lift the edge if you don't need to flip it. (burring happens, deburring comes later)
it takes 2 hands 2 eyes, 2 ears to get it right.
Practice.
Hard steels take longer, it's a fact of life.
Practice.
You need a bench strop.
what kind of edge do you need?  (working, shaving, carving, single or dual bevel?)
Serrations can be sharpened.
Practice.
You will screw up - it can be fixed.
Practice.
it's an art.
Practice.
When you are comfortable - buy a Japanese Water Stone - for finishing - but be prepared to have to re face it after your first attempts to use it - it's soft.
Practice.

If you want more info... PM me...  sharpening is therapy for me and a lot of my knives are CPM-S30-V...  very small grain, very hard (60ish Rockwell)  and I can get them very sharp--- Harsey has passed my sharpening skills.

Have I mentioned this takes Practice - lots of it?  don't practice on crappy knives/steel it'll force bad habits and make it tougher to get your good knives in shape.


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## The91Bravo (Sep 13, 2010)

2 and 1/2 years and then revived... Now THAT's a slow code


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## Marauder06 (Sep 13, 2010)

lol- I remember this thread... wow...

IIRC, the bayonet charge Pardus and I were discussing turned into a war crimes investigation.  Not sure whatever became of it.


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## x SF med (Sep 13, 2010)

Marauder06 said:


> lol- I remember this thread... wow...
> 
> IIRC, the bayonet charge Pardus and I were discussing turned into a war crimes investigation. Not sure whatever became of it.


 
You aren't in Leavenworth, it got dropped.  :doh:


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## Marauder06 (Sep 13, 2010)

x SF med said:


> You aren't in Leavenworth, it got dropped.  :doh:


 
lol

I would have been proud to have served with Pardus on this operation, but neither he nor I were involved.


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## x SF med (Sep 13, 2010)

billb said:


> I have the triangle Spyderco sharpening kit. What I don't like about it is, to clean, they recommend Comet and or a Scotch Brite pad. Do the other systems have to be maintained the same way? I can't picture someone in the field with Comet.


 
All sharpening equipment requires regular maintenance, like your rifle and it's cleaning equipment, your car, your clothes, oh, and your knives.


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