# "Why I'm Skeptical of PTSD Claims... And You Should Be Too"



## Marauder06 (Jun 15, 2015)

> "Post Traumatic Stress Disorder is to this generation of veterans what “back pain” was to mine; both are real conditions with real victims, but the symptoms are so common and so easily faked that anyone can claim they have the condition, and no one can prove that they don’t."



Any thought on the main points in this article?


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## Marine0311 (Jun 15, 2015)

Marauder06 said:


> Any thought on the main points in this article?



I do  agree with the main points of this article that PTSD has become and excuse card with veterans, however, to say all veterans is a broad statement. I point to selected cases in the linked article. One example is the AP article which states "Sen. John Walsh of Montana said Wednesday his failure to attribute conclusions and verbatim passages lifted from other scholars' work in his thesis to earn a master's degree from the U.S. Army War College was an unintentional mistake caused in part by post-traumatic stress disorder" ( Here ). In closing I do agree with the main points of this article that PTSD has become an excuse card with veterans, however, to say all veterans is a broad statement.


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## HOLLiS (Jun 15, 2015)

I am with Marine0311.    Also the people doing the  diagnosis needs to do their job.   20 years ago, PTSD was used by some criminals to try to wiggle out of the crime they did.     With out checking back ground, it seemed true.   The someone actually check their past.   Some where never in the service,  some where but never near any combat zones, areas, place which combat might have happened.   

Also there are degrees of PTSD, just like any injury.  People can paint a minor, a very minor injury look extremely serious.   

A broken finger nail is not a amputation.  Sort of a extreme example.   

Also I think there is just a lot of misinformation about exactly what PTSD is for the average person.    Diagnosis is not the veteran's job,  it is for the clinicians to diagnosis and treat.


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## reed11b (Jun 15, 2015)

I also feel like there is social pressure from other veterans to claim PTSD as a type of badge of honor to verify combat status. Like my combat doesn't count because I don't have PTSD.
Reed


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## AKkeith (Jun 15, 2015)

There are also veterans like me who silently receive treatment, deal with our demons, and do not claim compensation or desire any recognition.


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## Etype (Jun 15, 2015)

I think there's some credence to the claims...

I think one thing that plays a role that is seldom mentioned is that everyone has a different capacity for coping, which seems to coincide with mental toughness. I don't have the stats, but there seems to be significantly less PTSD in SOF elements in comparison to the occurrence potentially traumatic events.

I didn't really feel the pressure/stress of a deployment until the last one,  which coincided with a divorce. I could see some of my past deployments being particularly rough had they been compounded  by additional stressors.


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## Brill (Jun 15, 2015)

@Etype , I think the lower rates are more tied to stress inoculation and the confidence a SOF team conveys (especially to the attachments). After all the close quarters live fire, battle drills, and realistic medical training, I had no doubts we'd be ok but if something happened, the care would be top notch.

I don't think line units have the same sentiments going into a fight.

Oh, I used an iPad and tagged you.


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 16, 2015)

The best and worst thing about being SOF, and especially leaving, is the fact that both duration of time with the guys as well as exactly how tight knit the elements are, leaves a huge void whenever you move on.  

Didn't help that it was a delayed timebomb upon departure from Regiment.   Literally having SOP being shit that has ALREADY caused troops to die, and when multiple cases of "this is by far the stupidest thing we could do in this situation" are brought up the COC, getting told to STFU.... and having infantrymen looking up to me to be doing the right thing, keeping them alive, etc, when the unit's specifically planning operations that directly conflict against the active METL/SOP that the enemy's using overseas (since unlike everyone there, I could send an email and get a call within 72 hrs usually about WTF was up if it could be in the open, or otherwise "why is there a SFC/MSG/SGM on the phone in the S2 office asking for you" due to opsec) it drove me up the wall literally, then I spiderpigged on the ceiling.....

Realized I had a situation ongoing with me, realized I had no fucking ammunition/weapons/mission statement on how to move forward. Went for help. Got nothing other than chapter paperwork and then medically retired.  

Guess what, I'm fucked up some days. Other days I'm pretty fine. Coping mechanisms etc. Simple fact is, in lieu of any valid attempt at reconciliation/rectification of what I had going on/solid explanation OF what was going on within the DOD? I got shucked the fuck out when I planned on busting my ass for 20+ years because I loved the job and accepted everything that came with it. So yeah, I take my wonderful buck sergeant retirement and the rest of the associated stuff. 

Fuck their pills though. I'm better off dealing solo rather than with meds because if you have shit memory and forget them, then you're totally fucked and I'd argue shit memory + psych meds = majority of batshits we deal with today, across the board. 

Way too much shit going on in the brain and way too many side effects on things, nevermind that 80% of the time it's "symptoms = pills" regardless if they're actually working. I had shit that was working fine, I was learning to cope, etc... go to Palo Alto, what do they do? Shift my meds all over the fucking place and just totally fuck up my kilter.  Hell, here in NV one of the doctors perscribed some anti-smoking shit with a 6 month check-in if it was working... nothing beforehand... 3 days into taking it where I'm getting close to the proper amount of meds staying in my system? I get homicidal ideation like never before... and we're not talking "Dude cut me off when I'm driving politely and defensively, wish I was in the RSOV/Stryker GUNNER FRONT 20 METERS DIPSHIT IN THE SUBARU CYCLIC TILL ROUNDS COMPLETE FIRE" joking shit... real deal stuff I recognized that "seemed right to do" and made manson look like kindergarden level shit... flushed the shit instantly, informed the wife to secure the shit and watch me for the next week till I detox off this shit because it's fucking me up.... and went back that day to the doc and said that shit needs to be put as a lethal allergy because if I take it, someone's gonna die.  

Then again, I also personally know it's an aggrivating factor but my actions are still my own when it comes down to it. I have to (and do) pay attention to things to ensure that I'm responding appropriately versus letting the little hate turbine that's always spinning help drive the wheels so I oversteer rather than stay in my lane, so to speak.


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## HOLLiS (Jun 16, 2015)

AKkeith said:


> There are also veterans like me who silently receive treatment, deal with our demons, and do not claim compensation or desire any recognition.



I really agree with your sentiments.   BUT..  <-- see big Butt I disagree with not filing a claim.     We did sign a contract.   It is not about how tough we are or any thing else.   File that claim.    WHY...   Because the VA does not serve you, it serves the VA.  Later, when you need it, that date is important. 

I really wish I could explain myself better,  You are screwing yourself.    It is not about recognition anything.  It is about what ever happens in the future.  Your family, your health, etc. 

For over 20 years I was also silent too, well be silent to everyone except the VA.


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## AKkeith (Jun 16, 2015)

HOLLiS said:


> I really agree with your sentiments.   BUT..  <-- see big Butt I disagree with not filing a claim.     We did sign a contract.   It is not about how tough we all or any thing else.   File that claim.    WHY...   Because the VA does not serve you, it serves the VA.  Later, when you need it, that date is important.
> 
> I really wish I could explain myself better,  You are screwing yourself.    It is not about recognition anything.  It is about what ever happens in the future.  Your family, your health, etc.
> 
> For over 20 years I was also silent too, well be silent to everyone except the VA.


Ah and here is our dilemma. If I file for PTSD with the VA and it goes on my record I have offically screwed myself for finding work. I have already been denied a high end government security job because I was stupid and told them I see a private psychologist about some reintegration stuff. They dug deeeep into it. Psychologist ran a great defense. They got wind of a tiny note on her pad that said, possible mild ptsd. Boom, tossed out of that candidate pool before I knew what happened.

Screwed if you file. Screwed if you don't.


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## x SF med (Jun 16, 2015)

I've been there for my brothers in arms who have / are dealing with PTSD issues.  I've been told by them, that just being there listening, not judging, not making suggestions on things to do, but really listening and asking pertinent (and impertinent/sarcastic) questions, or just going out and doing shit that's not part of the routine, just having time to be with a brother who's got your back makes a huge difference.

The brain is an organ that houses another organ we really don't fucking understand, the mind.  If palliative care works for other physical injuries, why are people so afraid to do the same with injuries to the mind?  If a person has strained muscles, massage works; spinal mis-alignment, chiropractic/manipulative care; palliative care for brothers (generic term) with PTSD is as effective as that for physical injury, from my experience.   Long phone calls, hikes, a day at the lake, a good meal, a cold beer and a place that feels safe because your buddy trusts you.

I believe PTSD is real, and has degrees, and is like cancer... it can be brought on by many things in your environment, but like back injuries, can be used by some to game the system and the feelings/sympathy of others.

No, I did not want to get pissed off by the article, so I did not read it, I read the comments of my brothers and responded to them, like I would if a call came through and the person on the other end said "I just need to talk, got some time?"  For my brothers, that's the only stupid question there is, if you need me, I'm there.


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## RetPara (Jun 16, 2015)

I think that the main point of the article is that not all VA/Mil PTSD diagnosis are valid or are at the same level.   

I have not seen anything that PTSD is graduated in degree.  Also RangerPsych did the smart thing flushing the drugs (well not flushing; water treatment plants are not equipped to deal with pharmaceuticals).  Too often in Mental Health there is not a sufficient review of medication interaction.   Also individuals will react differently to different individual meds and combination of meds.  I found that the hard way last year.  It's up to the  Veteran to be aware of the side effects of individual and combinations of meds.  It does not have to be trying to decipher the literature, there are good web pages that break it down.  Also there should be VA pharmacists that can look at ALL the meds your taking and review them for issues.   If the meds your taking are having a negative impact you have to speak up.

One thing that has not been brought up is that Psychiatry is primarily pharmacology based.  When you get into other disciplines like Psychology; then you get away from Happy Pills.  There are few VA's, if any, that will assign a cross discipline team for individuals for mental health care.


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 16, 2015)

AKkeith said:


> Ah and here is our dilemma. If I file for PTSD with the VA and it goes on my record I have offically screwed myself for finding work. I have already been denied a high end government security job because I was stupid and told them I see a private psychologist about some reintegration stuff. They dug deeeep into it. Psychologist ran a great defense. They got wind of a tiny note on her pad that said, possible mild ptsd. Boom, tossed out of that candidate pool before I knew what happened.
> 
> Screwed if you file. Screwed if you don't.



Here's the thing, you're in the Fire service now. Dealing with the stuff that you do on a regular basis (pulling a 6 y/o corpse out of a house set on fire because of drunk grandma who survived and while in the incipient stages nobody made sure he was out, as a prime example) WILL chew you up... but good departments also have different things in place to help take care of you. CISD's (Critical Incident Stress Debriefing) for example. That call sticks out in my mind as a total soup sandwich that a large portion of the department was fucked up about up until we did the CISD and had the dispatcher, initial crew/command on-scene, etc etc all there... going over the call was hard, hard for a lot of us, but it also opened eyes as to the reality of the entire situation and the simple fact that by the time the neighbors called 911, that kid was already gone and even having the Enterprise to do a transporter beam-in of the entire department with full crews for all plus spare manpower, wouldn't have changed the scene.

I can say honestly that diagnosed or undiagnosed, you really shouldn't be in jobs out the gate where they're doing psych evals.  I've thought about giving it a shot for a couple departments, but between the comraderie and mission? Fire service has everything else beat. Plus our rigs look better anyway and people are 98% of the time happy to see us, unlike the blue canaries. ;)



RetPara said:


> I think that the main point of the article is that not all VA/Mil PTSD diagnosis are valid or are at the same level.
> 
> I have not seen anything that PTSD is graduated in degree.  Also RangerPsych did the smart thing flushing the drugs (well not flushing; water treatment plants are not equipped to deal with pharmaceuticals).  Too often in Mental Health there is not a sufficient review of medication interaction.   Also individuals will react differently to different individual meds and combination of meds.  I found that the hard way last year.  It's up to the  Veteran to be aware of the side effects of individual and combinations of meds.  It does not have to be trying to decipher the literature, there are good web pages that break it down.  Also there should be VA pharmacists that can look at ALL the meds your taking and review them for issues.   If the meds your taking are having a negative impact you have to speak up.
> 
> One thing that has not been brought up is that Psychiatry is primarily pharmacology based.  When you get into other disciplines like Psychology; then you get away from Happy Pills.  There are few VA's, if any, that will assign a cross discipline team for individuals for mental health care.




I have a 5 y/o and even knowing this, they issued that crap to me in non-child-resistant containers. I even asked when I called prior to meeting with my doctor (I called as soon as I was off the road and at home) and they didn't have any disposal capabilities at the clinic I "report" to. Then again, I'm in bumfuck and my only choice if I even attended any psych-related treatment at this point is either driving 70+ miles, or trying to use the VA champ or whatever the hell it is to get local treatment... and everything local? Focused on substance abuse. The only substance abuse I do is occassionally drinking my beer slow enough that it gets warm, since I'm drinking just because it tastes good and in celebration of little things in life.  When I'm "in the shit" in my head? I specifically refuse to drink. I'll take the various demons on head on and sober, thank you.

The only time I have seen a cross discipline team/been "engaged" by one is during voluntary stays at programs. Even then, the shit really didn't help much/at all.


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 16, 2015)

Addendum: I also just about had it out with the C&P Examiner the last time I had to check in for that shit... The oxygen thief I had to interact with tried to say that neither of my inpatient stays were voluntary... erm, woman, I got asked if I wanted to go, I boarded the plane of my own accord, I got in the taxi on my own accord, and I signed in under my own volition with the ability to leave at any time should I so desire.... both times. The involuntary side? Other side of the hospital with the thorazine shufflers, 1:2 staff to patient ratio and getting buzzed in-out of the secured facility... my side? open doors, team of two nurses on duty for the 30 some odd staying there at the time, and a sign in-out roster if you wanted to go out for fresh air, PT, gas station for munchies, or weekend passes either individually or as a buddy team. 

I got more out of a 16 hour pass with some people  from here who was awesome enough to take me in, than from the entire program duration I endured.


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## AWP (Jun 16, 2015)

You'll also have assholes like the Air Guard guy I worked with. He practically sent out a flyer stating his deployment's end state was a PTSD diagnosis so he could score 10 points of veterans preference. This will remain a problem until there's some type of brain scan or blood test or something beyond the words coming from a patient's mouth. Those dirtbags will clog the system and ride high on their glory and valor and injuries....and there's damn little we can do to stop them. One off's maybe, but not the masses.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 16, 2015)

x SF med said:


> ...
> No, I did not want to get pissed off by the article, so I did not read it, I read the comments of my brothers and responded to them, like I would if a call came through and the person on the other end said "I just need to talk, got some time?"  For my brothers, that's the only stupid question there is, if you need me, I'm there.



Don't get put off by the overly-sensationalistic title, the article itself is actually quite nuanced.  I don't think you'd get pissed off if you read it.


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## DA SWO (Jun 16, 2015)

Everyone seems to push the PTSD angle, I've had two exams with #3 in a week.


Freefalling said:


> You'll also have assholes like the Air Guard guy I worked with. He practically sent out a flyer stating his deployment's end state was a PTSD diagnosis so he could score 10 points of veterans preference. This will remain a problem until there's some type of brain scan or blood test or something beyond the words coming from a patient's mouth. Those dirtbags will clog the system and ride high on their glory and valor and injuries....and there's damn little we can do to stop them. One off's maybe, but not the masses.


They need to do a better job with the initial diagnosis, but saying someone is sick makes everyone happy.


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## HOLLiS (Jun 16, 2015)

A article by the VVA on degrees of PTSD:

http://www.vva.org/ptsd_levels.html


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## Brill (Dec 20, 2015)

Interesting article but the picture with the guy's weapon control just pisses me off.

Veterans' PTSD may recur down the line | Fox News


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 20, 2015)

I agree with both Etype and Ranger Psych on their comments. I do think there are a lot of shammers out there, on both sides. A ton of people making claims, without any justification IMO. However, there are people who are walking wrecking balls screwing up everything in their life, who refuse to acknowledge that they have a problem or seek help. I never thought I had PTSD, argued with a psychologist to the point I was about to choke the shit of him. Storming out offices like a fucking child, while I'm sure several people were shaking their heads at my stupidity. 

I had a megalithic melt down of epic proportions, just about ruined everything around me, got pretty close to suck starting a pistol, and ended up on some psych meds temporarily, and had to be take a long hard look at myself and my bullshit. 

You might not think you have it, you may refuse to admit you have an issue, but you had better get properly screened and except the diagnosis and stay ahead of it. Don't be a dummy like me...

As for the VA and or the Military, they need to get better at identifying and diagnosis, and a lot better in proactive treatments, especially in the areas of chemical imbalances and how they affect people with PTSD. As for the liars and or shammers, when they are identified they need to be prosecuted for fraud and false claims.

My$.02


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## DA SWO (Dec 20, 2015)

Part of the issue is how they developed the standards for PTSD.
My first eval you needed three "triggers" to get a PTSD diagnosis, then it was dropped to one for awhile.
My last evals they had a sliding scale where you were diagnosed with none, mild, moderate, severe; which (IMO) is a more accurate way of doing the diagnosis.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 28, 2016)

A recent article in The Guardian made me think of this article again:

"I know I’m going to catch hell from my brothers and sisters in the veteran community on this one, but it needs to be said: I’m becoming skeptical of some PTSD claims, and you should be too."


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## DA SWO (Jan 29, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> A recent article in The Guardian made me think of this article again:
> 
> "I know I’m going to catch hell from my brothers and sisters in the veteran community on this one, but it needs to be said: I’m becoming skeptical of some PTSD claims, and you should be too."



I am skeptical, have seen too many frauds.

I know of one case where 30 plus witnesses gave sworn statements that the Vet was/is lying about his experiences, and I still haven't seen where the Attorney General's Office (I can not say what state) hasn't indicted.

I also think the VA is willing to give a PTSD Diagnosis out for CYA reasons, and as a way to disarm a segment of society.

Ironically, I've also seen a shit load of people who need that diagnosis who are unwilling to admit a problem exists (generally (my experience) type A hard-chargers)


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## reed11b (Jan 29, 2016)

Examining The Narrative of 22
This falls in the same the category. One thing many people miss, is that the population that makes up the vast majority of the Military (Young Adult Males,  Caucasians  in particular) is also the population with the highest suicide rates in the civilian world. It's awful, and almost all of us have lost someone to it, but I feel that the 22 a day thing falls into the same playing the victim card as the exaggerated PTSD claims. 
Reed


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 29, 2016)

reed11b said:


> Examining The Narrative of 22
> This falls in the same the category. One thing many people miss, is that the population that makes up the vast majority of the Military (Young Adult Males,  Caucasians  in particular) is also the population with the highest suicide rates in the civilian world. It's awful, and almost all of us have lost someone to it, but I feel that the 22 a day thing falls into the same playing the victim card as the exaggerated PTSD claims.
> Reed



I made it up to the point that they stated "1 GWOT vet a day commit's suicide, ONE". Here is an idea, one vet of any war killing themselves a day, is fucked. As for the 22 a day, I don't give a fuck what war they served in, or if they reason was because of PTSD, etc. What I care about is my brothers and sisters offing themselves on a daily bases, because this world, more specifically this country has become so fucked up, that they would rather check out than spend anymore time in it. 

Not venting on you Reed, I love ya bro, but this shit fucking pisses me off to no end, and its not something to be taken lightly about in a bullshit article.

That said, maybe society as a whole should reexamine this current bullshit culture being forced down our necks, of poverty, limited (only with special permission) freedom, and emotionally unstable "you hurt my tenderhearted feelings" bullshit, with regards to the veteran suicide rate. 

Or maybe the veteran community should stop offing themselves, and start offing some of these pussies who ruined our lives having us fighting in wars that used up our bodies, minds and souls, while they profited in every possible fucking way, and who are still trying to profit from our god damn recovery. While forcing us to seek substandard medical care, while watching our families suffer because we are all fucked up.

I'm going to push away from the keyboard and take a walk now. Y'all have a great night.....fuck!


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## Marauder06 (Jan 30, 2016)

Other than that article by OAF, I don't think I've ever seen anyone say it's 22 GWOT vets. A vet is a vet.  And vets DO kill themselves at a higher rate than the general population.  The OAF article stresses that the original data was "incomplete," umm... doesn't that mean that there are potentially MORE dead veterans that are not being counted?

OAF missed the boat on this one.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 30, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I made it up to the point that they stated "1 GWOT vet a day commit's suicide, ONE". Here is an idea, one vet of any war killing themselves a day, is fucked. As for the 22 a day, I don't give a fuck what war they served in, or if they reason was because of PTSD, etc. What I care about is my brothers and sisters offing themselves on a daily bases, because this world, more specifically this country has become so fucked up, that they would rather check out than spend anymore time in it.
> 
> Not venting on you Reed, I love ya bro, but this shit fucking pisses me off to no end, and its not something to be taken lightly about in a bullshit article.
> 
> ...



Maybe you should have continued reading.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 30, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Other than that article by OAF, I don't think I've ever seen anyone say it's 22 GWOT vets. A vet is a vet.  And vets DO kill themselves at a higher rate than the general population.  The OAF article stresses that the original data was "incomplete," umm... doesn't that mean that there are potentially MORE dead veterans that are not being counted?
> 
> OAF missed the boat on this one.



I disagree pretty hard here. The general consensus(right or wrong) everywhere is that GWOT era vets are killing themselves at a rate of 22 a day. That is a stigma that can be hard to overcome. For us in school, or entering the workforce there is a perception that we may be damaged or suicidal, and that is propagated by this #22 stuff.  I have been asked questions that verify this, and the #22 thing was referenced as a current generation problem.

Obviously veteran suicide is a problem. The rate is higher than the general population. That sucks. But the point of the op Ed was to point out it isn't us killing ourselves, and I agree that guys might be pushed that way due to the perception that they are "fitting in". 

I lost a friend to suicide myself, he was a GWOT vet, but I don't think that played into his suicide as much as a lot of other shit.


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## AWP (Jan 30, 2016)

Given the recent focus on CTE within the NFL I'd like to see more autopsies on suicide victims to check for brain damage. Even going past the obvious like TBI from an IED strike, how many of you had a jump or two or whatever "ring your bell?" How many other events? Doing H2H and after awhile you have a headache from being someone's take down dummy....are we sure that didn't lead to some dings or mild concussion?

Veterans, even without an IED, are probably exposed to more head trauma than many other groups within society. Do we take as many shots to the head as an NFL player? No, but CTE and its thresholds are still being worked out.

None of this even touches the burn pit/ Agent Orange/ Desert Storm syndrome/ contaminated water or other possible health issues which will take a toll on our bodies and minds. Do we really understand the causes behind the suicide rate or do we generalize and say "PTSD" or war "messed him/ her up?" Do concussions or a certain amount of brain trauma lower one's threshold for PTSD and depression? What combinations make us more susceptible to taking our lives? We're losing too many for this to have a cut and dried source.


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## Brill (Jan 30, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> That is a stigma that can be hard to overcome. For us in school, or entering the workforce *there is a perception that we may be damaged or suicidal,* and that is propagated by this #22 stuff.



Within the USG workforce, the perception was/is viewed as reality and it is very common among DOD civilians who support combat operations (via networked systems and through "Pred porn").


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## RackMaster (Jan 30, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Given the recent focus on CTE within the NFL I'd like to see more autopsies on suicide victims to check for brain damage. Even going past the obvious like TBI from an IED strike, how many of you had a jump or two or whatever "ring your bell?" How many other events? Doing H2H and after awhile you have a headache from being someone's take down dummy....are we sure that didn't lead to some dings or mild concussion?
> 
> Veterans, even without an IED, are probably exposed to more head trauma than many other groups within society. Do we take as many shots to the head as an NFL player? No, but CTE and its thresholds are still being worked out.
> 
> None of this even touches the burn pit/ Agent Orange/ Desert Storm syndrome/ contaminated water or other possible health issues which will take a toll on our bodies and minds. Do we really understand the causes behind the suicide rate or do we generalize and say "PTSD" or war "messed him/ her up?" Do concussions or a certain amount of brain trauma lower one's threshold for PTSD and depression? What combinations make us more susceptible to taking our lives? We're losing too many for this to have a cut and dried source.



My neurologist said something very similar and basically said any damage adds up.  Even if there's no physical hit to the melon, severe shaking causes damage; the melon can only bounce around inside the shell so much.


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## DA SWO (Jan 31, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> My neurologist said something very similar and basically said any damage adds up.  Even if there's no physical hit to the melon, severe shaking causes damage; the melon can only bounce around inside the shell so much.


One reason why Parachute Training is listed as a qualifier for Dual Compensation when you retire.


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## Ranger Psych (Jan 31, 2016)

wait what? dual comp?


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## DA SWO (Jan 31, 2016)

Ranger Psych said:


> wait what? dual comp?


Let me look it up, there are a couple of qualifiers (I think it's only for 20 and over retirees)


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## Ranger Psych (Jan 31, 2016)

Yeah, I'm not worried about it. CRSC is better than the other program making up for concurrent reciept.


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## J.S. (Jan 31, 2016)

In 2013, the LA Times completed a study concerning modern veteran suicide. It concluded that around two GWOT vets commit suicide daily. 

*One more step was required to make the comparisons relevant. California veterans under 35 are about 80% male, and nearly half are over 29. A straight comparison to the general population in that age group would be less than ideal, since suicide and accident rates vary significantly by gender and age.

The Times adjusted the non-veteran death rates so they reflected the age and gender mix of the veteran population.

As the story explained, suicide and accident rates were substantially higher for veterans. Over the six years examined by The Times, 329 California veterans under 35 took their own lives. That amounts to an average annual rate of 27 suicides per 100,000 veterans.

If that rate were to hold true across the country, about 530 young veterans are committing suicide each year — roughly 1.5 each day.*

A misunderstood statistic: 22 military veteran suicides a day


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## Red Flag 1 (Jan 31, 2016)

J.S. said:


> In 2013, the LA Times completed a study concerning modern veteran suicide. It concluded that around two GWOT vets commit suicide daily.
> 
> *One more step was required to make the comparisons relevant. California veterans under 35 are about 80% male, and nearly half are over 29. A straight comparison to the general population in that age group would be less than ideal, since suicide and accident rates vary significantly by gender and age.
> 
> ...



Why the *bold* print?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 31, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Let me look it up, there are a couple of qualifiers (I think it's only for 20 and over retirees)



The double dip is for 20+ year's w/ service connected disability ratings. Guys like RS and me can only draw one or the other, excluding CRSC.



Ranger Psych said:


> Yeah, I'm not worried about it. CRSC is better than the other program making up for concurrent reciept.



I still haven't applied for CRSC, not sure on the process, but had a buddy who was drawing like $150, so I just kinda blew it off. I received my permanent retirement orders (off the TDRL) last March at 90% (100% with the VA). Was it worth the time doing CRSC? Also how difficult was the paperwork, did you have to go see someone, or just do it on your own? I need to file it but been procrastinating like a turd.


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## Ranger Psych (Jan 31, 2016)

The criteria for CRSC are odd and not that well documented, however in my case it was well worth submitting for.


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## J.S. (Jan 31, 2016)

@Red Flag 1 very graciously sent me a PM concerning my post in this thread, and I would like to apologize for straying outside my lane. I try my best not to interject personal feeling or advice into any of my posts, I was attempting to offer up data that I felt would add to the discussion. The bold print was a quote from the study and I bolded to identify it as such, not to emphasize personal commentary or challenge anyone. Again, I profusely apologize for giving advice where I clearly do not rate. I will definitely do better in the future and read more, post less.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jan 31, 2016)

J.S. said:


> @Red Flag 1 very graciously sent me a PM concerning my post in this thread, and I would like to apologize for straying outside my lane. I try my best not to interject personal feeling or advice into any of my posts, I was attempting to offer up data that I felt would add to the discussion. The bold print was a quote from the study and I bolded to identify it as such, not to emphasize personal commentary or challenge anyone. Again, I profusely apologize for giving advice where I clearly do not rate. I will definitely do better in the future and read more, post less.



No worries, J.S. work hard in highschool to build the broad base of knowledge that you will be adding to everyday of your life. Be sure to have fun;  that too is part of the teen years, and  highschool. We are glad to have you on board, and I hope we can help you reach your goal.


----------



## DA SWO (Jan 31, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> The double dip is for 20+ year's w/ service connected disability ratings. Guys like RS and me can only draw one or the other, excluding CRSC.
> 
> 
> 
> I still haven't applied for CRSC, not sure on the process, but had a buddy who was drawing like $150, so I just kinda blew it off. I received my permanent retirement orders (off the TDRL) last March at 90% (100% with the VA). Was it worth the time doing CRSC? Also how difficult was the paperwork, did you have to go see someone, or just do it on your own? I need to file it but been procrastinating like a turd.


Should have been automatic.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 31, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Should have been automatic.



I was told you have to submit paperwork and receive approval.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 1, 2016)

"Recent veterans have committed suicide at a much higher rate than people who never served in the military, according to a new analysis that provides the most thorough accounting so far of the problem.

The rate was slightly higher among veterans who never deployed to Afghanistan or Iraq, suggesting that the causes extend beyond the trauma of war."


Detailed study confirms high suicide rate among recent veterans


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 12, 2016)

This Minnesota group is taking on the VA in how they treat PTSD

Forget the VA: Our group can help heal trauma of PTSD


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## TLDR20 (Mar 12, 2016)

AKkeith said:


> Ah and here is our dilemma. If I file for PTSD with the VA and it goes on my record I have offically screwed myself for finding work. I have already been denied a high end government security job because I was stupid and told them I see a private psychologist about some reintegration stuff. They dug deeeep into it. Psychologist ran a great defense. They got wind of a tiny note on her pad that said, possible mild ptsd. Boom, tossed out of that candidate pool before I knew what happened.
> 
> Screwed if you file. Screwed if you don't.



That is a HIPPA violation. On both the part of the provider and the .gov


----------



## policemedic (Mar 12, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> That is a HIPPA violation. On both the part of the provider and the .gov



Not necessarily.  If the patient signs a release, as often happens during a background check, the provider is permitted to make the disclosure.  The key word is permitted; they're not required to (required disclosures are a different conversation altogether). 

The privacy rule and its myriad exceptions are a constant headache for me.


----------



## Brill (Mar 13, 2016)

AKkeith said:


> Ah and here is our dilemma. If I file for PTSD with the VA and it goes on my record I have offically screwed myself for finding work. I have already been denied a high end government security job because I was stupid and told them I see a private psychologist about some reintegration stuff. They dug deeeep into it. Psychologist ran a great defense. They got wind of a tiny note on her pad that said, possible mild ptsd. Boom, tossed out of that candidate pool before I knew what happened.
> 
> Screwed if you file. Screwed if you don't.



*Mental Health and Final Security Clearances*

Mental health issues can adversely affect an individual’s eligibility for a federal security clearance, but many clearance applicants worry unnecessarily and sometimes choose not to seek treatment due to fears that it could result in the denial or revocation of a clearance.

A July 2009 article at www.Army.mil reported that the US Army Central Clearance Facility’s _“adjudicative history indicates that 99.98 percent of cases with psychological concerns obtained/retained their security clearance eligibility.”_

Mental Health and Final Security Clearances - Defense News

I'm not saying this is fact as I believe that many are in the same boat: clearance = a way to make a living. I know what the medical releases say but nobody wants to potentially be labeled.


----------



## Brill (Mar 13, 2016)

People on this show definitely do not help the cause.

Stoned Vets - WEEDIQUETTE - VICELAND


----------



## A53 (Mar 15, 2016)

I don't think it's the TIME for that article.  Not when the VA has been denying more than 90% of PTSD claims (up to 2012), still denies 65% of soldiers claiming PTSD ... after reviewing the files which are sometimes hundreds of pages thick for an average of FOUR minutes.... after having taken 1 1/2 years to spend that 4-minutes on a file. 

Hell.. I know a guy who's been waiting 4-years (an appeal of their first bullshit decision).  Here is a guy who graduated from one of the best colleges in the country before then graduating from one of the best law schools in the country to then join the Army........... and I spent an hour on the phone today trying to help him plug his DVD player into the right AV slots in the back of his TV.  An hour.  

Mothafkrs.  

In the meanwhile... woo-hoo... he gets his $400 a month from the Army and NO ONE, of course, will hire him.  Oh... and the VA sends him a letter where it clearly states he can receive free counseling at the VA for psychiatric illness (to include PTSD, as the letter states) because it began during his period of service.  Huh?  Really?  Do you even read your own files?  Nah.. not in 4-minutes they don't (mothafcka. mothafcka).

Point is... that article starts a discussion that NO ONE should be having right now.  It is a tremendous distraction from the much greater, life-altering, misserable, painful life that vets (and enlisted who are scared as fck to even ever mention PTSD to anyone for fear of being med-boarded, losing the right to have a gun or work in any kind of future security job) are suffering through.  

Even if it is 10% who are fraudsters that are getting through the sieve, I don't giveashit.  It's more important that they pay... and properly treat... the 90% valid claims of those who are suffering.  

When the VA comes closer to 90% approvals of valid PTSD claims... rather than 45%... have the discussion then.      

Sure... I believe most of the guy's points in his article.  But.. man, WTF?  It's not the time.  

For that reason, yeah... the article pissed me off.  Big time.


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## 8654Maine (Mar 15, 2016)

A53, please articulate better.  Your writing is atrocious.  This isn't a teeny bopper site.  Your Intro page needs work as well.  

I am requesting politely that you write coherent sentences so your idea can be conveyed in a meaningful matter.

Plus, your gratuitous use of "..." and cussing detracts from the important discussion about PTSD.

What is your background and what are you trying to convey?


----------



## metalmom (Mar 15, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Any thought on the main points in this article?[/QUOTE
> 
> So I guess the stigma still stands.I have had PTSD for over 30 yrs.I do not have combat PTSD-but let me tell you the symptoms that came with mine-severe agoraphobia-heightened anxiety-panic attacks and a severe tightening of the throat where I
> am unable to eat. This is a real mental illness and we need to support one another.If people cry wolf-dont let us take the shame.


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## A53 (Mar 15, 2016)

@8654Maine  What up?  

I agree.  My writing is attrocious.  I gotta ask for my $300 back from that university in Hatii... cause that was for all three of my degrees. And they apparently aint worth jack fckin shit.  Thanks for lettin' me know 'bout that.  I'll get on it.  

Concerning the article, it stated that people could easily fake PTSD.  Here's a PET scans of normal vs. PTSD brain:

http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-QMt1RYWWv...healthy_vs_post-traumatic-stress-syndrome.jpg

For other examples, simply Google "PET scan PTSD".  

My point being, the fakers can be weeded out.  They're just not doing it.  Neither is the VA commonly utilizing PET scans for diagnosis.


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## Marine0311 (Mar 15, 2016)

A53 said:


> @8654Maine  What up?
> 
> I agree.  My writing is attrocious.  I gotta ask for my $300 back from that university in Hatii... cause that was for all three of my degrees. And they apparently aint worth jack fckin shit.  Thanks for lettin' me know 'bout that.  I'll get on it.
> 
> ...



What the fuck?

You need to do better than that.


----------



## pardus (Mar 15, 2016)

A53 said:


> @8654Maine  What up?
> 
> I agree.  My writing is attrocious.  I gotta ask for my $300 back from that university in Hatii... cause that was for all three of my degrees. And they apparently aint worth jack fckin shit.  Thanks for lettin' me know 'bout that.  I'll get on it.
> 
> ...




You've already been told/warned by a member of the staff here to not step out of your lane when it comes to subjects like medicine/health. Your "point being" is based on nothing but internet "knowledge". You DO NOT know that for a fact, or if you do, you've provided zero evidence to back your claim up.

On this site, if you post something, you must state that it is only your opinion or fact based on... whatever proof you can and will supply.
Do you understand?
This is the second time you've been told. Take note!

As for your smart assed reply to @8654Maine , keep it up and see where it gets you on this site.
Understand?


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## DocIllinois (Mar 16, 2016)

A53 said:


> @8654Maine  What up?
> 
> I agree.  My writing is attrocious.  I gotta ask for my $300 back from that university in Hatii... cause that was for all three of my degrees. And they apparently aint worth jack fckin shit.  Thanks for lettin' me know 'bout that.  I'll get on it.
> 
> ...



I concur with @Marine0311; you'll definitely have to do better than this regarding serious discussion of a health/ science related subject on this board.  

FWIW, the VA isn't using PET scans as a "common" diagnostic tool with this disorder because the targeted, mechanism based treatments which may be indicated using this imaging modality are still being studied.

A recent NYU study on this very subject, in this case researching the expression of dysphoric symptoms in trauma related psychopathology with PET as a study tool:

*Association of In Vivo κ-Opioid Receptor Availability and the Transdiagnostic Dimensional Expression of Trauma-Related Psychopathology*


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## metalmom (Mar 19, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Any thought on the main points in this article?


Well Sir,  this has been on my mind since you posted this. Everyone here likes you a lot and most will be all over me with what I am about to say. Thats Okay. If someone cant accept honesty, the problem is not mine to own.

First off Sir, when you equated PTSD to back pain I was offended. I feel you posting this took everyone working hard at mental health for PTSD, etc, back years. For us that have it-same thing. 

I cant even understand the main point you made. I find it very difficult to believe and hear this can be faked. Symptoms are not always the same as someone elses. Know anyone that had to scratch and claw at their mattress because they couldnt swallow. That may be a symptom that not a lot have-but I did.

You would have to be a great actor to share with your Dr. the horrible scaremares and fear of dying everyday.I am not ashamed to say that I have been so afraid I peed the bed. No shame. Just fear.

I know you have a good heart and were just making a point-but maybe it just flew over my head. I respected you from day one when you brought up that awesome critical thinking exercise way back.

Needed to have my say. Thats all. Thanks.


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## 8654Maine (Mar 19, 2016)

Back pain, PTSD, seizures, headaches, etc.  It can all be faked. The people who do this do a vast disservice to honest people who suffer.


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## DocIllinois (Mar 19, 2016)

8654Maine said:


> Back pain, PTSD, seizures, headaches, etc.  It can all be faked. The people who do this do a vast disservice to honest people who suffer.



Truth be told.

I see a great many PI/ work comp/ auto accident cases for spine injury and pain.  Insurance company attorneys aggressively looking for evidence of malingering from the claimant is a common activity in depositions I've been party to in some of those cases.  Its a really unpleasant experience.

To be fair, though, they are protecting their client as a result of the damage done by decades of shady frauds.


----------



## digrar (Mar 19, 2016)

metalmom said:


> Everyone here likes you a lot and most will be all over me with what I am about to say. Thats Okay. If someone cant accept honesty, the problem is not mine to own.
> 
> First off Sir, when you equated PTSD to back pain I was offended.



Mara was quoting the opening sentence of the story, you need to take the issue up with Scott Faith, the person who wrote the article.


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## Brill (Mar 19, 2016)

@metalmom , I know such an actor: female 42-series E-5 who got lost en route to BAF from Kabul. No CAB but now a DV due to a PTSD diagnosis from a VA doc.


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## policemedic (Mar 19, 2016)

metalmom said:


> <snip>
> 
> Needed to have my say. Thats all. Thanks.



Completely understandable.  PTS is a huge burden to bear.  I think the more we hear from those who are legitimately diagnosed the better we are.  For clarity, when I say _we_ I mean both the veteran and clinical communities; increasing our fund of knowledge from those who are experiencing PTS can only help us better understand it.

With that said, sometimes when we're very close to a subject it makes it hard to be objective.  The truth is--and you're not going to like this--people can and do fake PTS.  They do it for the obvious reasons--facilitating malingering while they're in and increasing their disability percentage after they're out.

I'm of the belief that we are so sensitive to PTS now that it is over diagnosed.  There are a number of reasons for that; sometimes it's a clinical error and sometimes it's Snuffy leading a doc down the primrose path.

I'm also well aware that gaming the system to increase disability payments or engineer a medical retirement from the service is not uncommon.  I've seen it personally.





8654Maine said:


> Back pain, PTSD, seizures, headaches, etc.  It can all be faked. The people who do this do a vast disservice to honest people who suffer.



Agreed.  The people who play these games make life so much more difficult on legitimate patients.  The unwillingness of some providers to provide clinically indicated narcotics is an example.

Whenever I've seen one of these fakers, they've tended to be (suspiciously) well educated on their chosen chief complaint, and they tend to pick things that are very difficult to disprove on exam or with investigations.

On the other hand, I'm very encouraged by, and interested in the work being done on resiliency by Dr. Martin Seligman and his team.  I think their approach is helpful and applicable to PTS, suicide prevention, and other problems.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 20, 2016)

Fuck my anger of this thread tonight is beyond being respectful. Some shit is better left alone.....as my 'nice' will not allow me to speak my mind and hurt the people I like on here....please know, this thread is bad for all of us, and poking a bear.


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## Brill (Mar 20, 2016)

@Diamondback 2/2 , interaction with board members has DEFINITELY assisted and increased my coping skils: my reaction is normal and it's ok to feel my "feels".

Feeling anger is very normal. Dealing with it in a productive (non-destructive) way is healthy.

You're clearly healing! You should be very proud of your restraint!!!!


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## DA SWO (Mar 20, 2016)

Talking helped me a lot, still don't know if my marriage is salvageable, but talking to others has helped me.


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## Brill (Mar 20, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> ...still wake up sweating after my recurring Running-Out-of-Ammo and about to be Captured Nightmare.



Apparently very common (I have the same) and they appear to be in response to various triggers.  I guess that would answer why I have some much 5.56 and 9mm at home???

I recently had a "helpless" dream where I was at a ferry terminal in Seattle and saw a worker fall into the water that was churning from the screws.  My first thought was "that sucks...he's dead" and after the screws finally stopped someone jumped in, brought him to the surface unconscious, and using one hand, I pulled him from the water.  I immediately jumped into first aid "ABC" mode while yelling "medic!"

I woke up at 4am and said to the wife "Guess I'm going to work now".

The trigger here was things (good things) going on at work.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 20, 2016)

Related:  "Only Weaklings Get PTSD"


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## DA SWO (Mar 20, 2016)

I should have added that Social media has helped, I've connected with people who were with me at various times, and just talking about what happened helps.

My Grandfathers and Uncles could talk to almost anyone and relate because WW II impacted America, the circle of people we can relate to grows smaller every day, which is why I seek fellow Vets out when I do business, or decide if I am going to spend time with you.


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## medicchick (Mar 20, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Related:  "Only Weaklings Get PTSD"
> 
> 
> 
> View attachment 15097


Ya'll are masters at click bait.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 20, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> J, I was a PTSD poster-boy. Couldn't handle relationships or bosses, went looking for trouble at bars, got tossed in the clink a few times for bar fights, nearly had my ears ripped off, threw a co-worker over a desk, drank too much, even had the .45 pressed against the side of my head a few dark and lonely times...until I finally met a good woman...and almost lost her--and everything else. Then one day I reluctantly walked into a Vet Center and my world started to turn around. They got me into a group, the VA got me on some meds--too many meds at first. Trazadone, Risperadone, Zoloft...but I was able to back off everything but the Zoloft. I started communicating with other combat vets, got hooked up with men who were in my unit in VN...stayed in group for about 4 years. My wife, my children, the VA, the Vet Center saved my ass. Do I still have problems? Of course. War becomes a part of your character. I still miss my lost bros, still have intense bitterness over the political sell-out of South Vietnam, still wake up sweating after my recurring Running-Out-of-Ammo and about to be Captured Nightmare. Still have pain from my physical wounds, still have that heavy lingering sadness...but I've also found joy within my family.
> 
> I hope I haven't been poking the bear or said anything to piss you off. Truth is, in my journey through the system I have seen some REMFs and Fobbits taking up valuable time and space at PTSD clinics working claims and it disgusts me. IMV there is no difference between them and the stolen valor people. I've bared my ass in public, bro. Read this before I get sense enough to delete it.




I'm quoting this so you can't delete it, as it's fucking reality and while I'm no fuzzy wuzzy carebear, I am caring that you're sharing this shit. 

Going to the Vet Center and seeing "where I could be in 20 years or less if I didn't tackle this shit like an ambush battle drill" is what started my road to being only mildly fucked up.


----------



## policemedic (Mar 20, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> ...still wake up sweating after my recurring Running-Out-of-Ammo and about to be Captured Nightmare.



I've had that dream (minus the about to be captured part).  I've also had the gun barrel turns to rubber and bends dream, the 1000lb trigger dream (the one where you can't pull it no matter how hard you try), the one where you fire but the bullets fall to the ground, firing but missing, and many others.  I thought I was in the wrong profession until I was properly educated.  Fortunately, that happened very early in my career.

I used to think that the dreams would stop once I proved to myself that I'd drop the hammer.  They don't, as you well know.

Many service members and others in the profession of arms have those dreams.  It's something we have to deal with for life, but knowing that helps a bit I think.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 20, 2016)

My bad dreams always had something to do with being physically trapped, usually underground, and being unable to move or breathe.  Turned out to be a reaction to sleep apnea.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Mar 20, 2016)

Fully known and minimal symptoms for a benign injury, all interventions don't work in a failure cascade that causes loss of a patient.
Hand to hand with a ROE where I can't just knock out or kill the guy (obvious play on one incident, I won though) and yet he's playing for keeps. That one puts the wife on the couch ricky tick because she gets sucked into being the op-for for an unconscious Sasquatchimus Ragnar.

Civ derpy dreams, Evacing a trauma patient who by all rights should survive, but the civ chopper ends up doing a right face into the woodline due to a severe wind change and we can't get hoselines out there fast enough.


----------



## metalmom (Mar 20, 2016)

Thanks all for listening and not passing judgements. For any one of you PTSD survivors that ever want to talk I will be there for you.Sometimes you just have to keep talking.Again-so choked with the fakers. Takes away from those that truly suffer.May they all get busted.


----------



## metalmom (Mar 20, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> J, I was a PTSD poster-boy. Couldn't handle relationships or bosses, went looking for trouble at bars, got tossed in the clink a few times for bar fights, nearly had my ears ripped off, threw a co-worker over a desk, drank too much, even had the .45 pressed against the side of my head a few dark and lonely times...until I finally met a good woman...and almost lost her--and everything else. Then one day I reluctantly walked into a Vet Center and my world started to turn around. They got me into a group, the VA got me on some meds--too many meds at first. Trazadone, Risperadone, Zoloft...but I was able to back off everything but the Zoloft. I started communicating with other combat vets, got hooked up with men who were in my unit in VN...stayed in group for about 4 years. My wife, my children, the VA, the Vet Center saved my ass. Do I still have problems? Of course. War becomes a part of your character. I still miss my lost bros, still have intense bitterness over the political sell-out of South Vietnam, still wake up sweating after my recurring Running-Out-of-Ammo and about to be Captured Nightmare. Still have pain from my physical wounds, still have that heavy lingering sadness...but I've also found joy within my family.
> 
> I hope I haven't been poking the bear or said anything to piss you off. Truth is, in my journey through the system I have seen some REMFs and Fobbits taking up valuable time and space at PTSD clinics working claims and it disgusts me. IMV there is no difference between them and the stolen valor people. I've bared my ass in public, bro. Read this before I get sense enough to delete it.


----------



## metalmom (Mar 20, 2016)

Just want to say I am proud of you for opening up.Not always easy.PTSD is not a weakness. Its an illness.Ialso had severe rage issues and when younger always went looking for trouble. Just wanted a release. Having my son changed my life and probably saved me.


----------



## metalmom (Mar 20, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> My bad dreams always had something to do with being physically trapped, usually underground, and being unable to move or breathe.  Turned out to be a reaction to sleep apnea.


 Did you ever feel like someone was on top of you choking you.Sleep paralysis or something akin. Theories say that might be related to sleep apnea. Had it about 6 times.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 20, 2016)

metalmom said:


> Did you ever feel like someone was on top of you choking you.Sleep paralysis or something akin. Theories say that might be related to sleep apnea. Had it about 6 times.


No, there was never anyone else in these dreams, I was always completely alone and that's one of the things that made it terrifying.  What was interesting is that it felt like intense claustrophobia, which was strange because I used to do a lot of caving and tight spots never bothered me.  When I woke up and thought about the situation I was in in my dream, it wasn't scary at all.  But when I was asleep (and probably not breathing) it was the scariest thing ever.


----------



## DocIllinois (Mar 20, 2016)

Sleep apnea _can_ possibly be a trigger for sleep paralysis episodes, but there isn't yet a strong association to my knowledge.  I would be interested in evidence supporting this hypothesis, though.

Sleep paralysis is associated with certain psychopathologies, frequently PTSD.  It is also experienced slightly more by women.


A systematic review applicable to this subject:

*Lifetime Prevalence Rates of Sleep Paralysis: A Systematic Review*


----------



## metalmom (Mar 21, 2016)

Just read the article. Was intrigued to learn that about 34 percent of the population may get it from panic disorder which is just another part of my PTSD. Interesting article. Thanks for sharing. Had no clue they could be associated with PTSD.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Mar 21, 2016)

metalmom said:


> Just read the article. Was intrigued to learn that about 34 percent of the population may get it from panic disorder which is just another part of my PTSD. Interesting article. Thanks for sharing. Had no clue they could be associated with PTSD.



Thanks for the info. If you can link us to the article, I think many would like to see it. I
 know not everyone can always scan stuff for for us, but if you can, that would be great.


----------



## DocIllinois (Mar 21, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Thanks for the info. If you can link us to the article, I think many would like to see it. I
> know not everyone can always scan stuff for for us, but if you can, that would be great.



She's referencing information presented from the article linked in post #82.

Here's the text format if it downloads better, amigo:

Lifetime Prevalence Rates of Sleep Paralysis: A Systematic Review


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Mar 21, 2016)

DocIllinois said:


> She's referencing information presented from the article linked in post #82.
> 
> Here's the text format if it downloads better, amigo:
> 
> Lifetime Prevalence Rates of Sleep Paralysis: A Systematic Review



Thanks amigo . It has been a pretty busy day.


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## RackMaster (Mar 21, 2016)

@lindy I always found the good stressors always worse for triggering than the bad.  You don't expect good thoughts to fuck your shit up.  But stress is stress and it all adds up until the bucket over floweth of the shit.

As for dreams, I haven't had one I recalled since I stopped taking mefloquine after getting home.  I am stuck with night terrors.  Thankfully I've been able to reduce them quite a bit over the years.


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## metalmom (Mar 21, 2016)

Hey Rack-I have very vivid night terrors.Probably 5 to 6 days out of 7. I dont remember the last time I didnt remember a dream. Very glad your night terrors are getting less over the yrs. Have to say I once had a 6th month reprieve.Kept dreaming night after night a bear was coming after me-bypassed my husband and son and found its way up the loft. More symbolic in who or what that bear was in my life.Still scary. Totally understand about the good stressors affecting us.Did you ever have sleep paralysis.


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## policemedic (Mar 21, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> mefloquine


 
Mefloquine can be problematic.  Some docs/units prefer it for its ease of dosing, but I've always thought doxycycline to be a safer antimalarial (cheaper, too).  The trade-off is your medic has to stay on top of the dosing schedule.


----------



## metalmom (Mar 21, 2016)

For PTSD I refused antidepressants. They scare me.Outside of self medicating with beer-which I am doing much better at now-only had ativan-xanax-and now clonazepam. Rack-you may know this-for yrs everyone told me to go for ODSP. I refused on the grounds I was going to fix myself. Anyway-2 yrs ago went for it.Denied at every turn.Got a great lawyer who referred me to a great psychologist-we could only skype.We won but through our skype interview he sent out his reports and he believed I had depression.I dont feel depessed but does that go hand in hand with PTSD..Know life would be better-possibly-with the right meds-just wont go for antidepessants.


----------



## metalmom (Mar 21, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> No, there was never anyone else in these dreams, I was always completely alone and that's one of the things that made it terrifying.  What was interesting is that it felt like intense claustrophobia, which was strange because I used to do a lot of caving and tight spots never bothered me.  When I woke up and thought about the situation I was in in my dream, it wasn't scary at all.  But when I was asleep (and probably not breathing) it was the scariest thing ever.


 So you were a spelunker. Ever do any diving in those caves if they had the water channels.Whats strange about your dream is I dont see it as symbolic but crazy what sleep apnea can do.How is that now-Ihave heard about devices you can get that will wake you if you stop breathing.


----------



## J.S. (Mar 21, 2016)

Please let me know if this is out of my lane, but I have some personal experience with night terrors. I've had them for around year and a half and it comes and goes in relation to frequency. Sometimes it's been 3-4 times a week, sometimes I'll go a month with no incident. It's always the scene of my bed, and there's an imminent threat in the room. It's been a bomb, a man leaning over me, but the general theme is the same. I'll initially feel petrified, but wake up screaming covered in cold sweat, occasionally running down the hallway. 

I found a visit to a therapist to be helpful and it was a relief to talk about the episodes fully with someone. I'd highly recommend a visit to a professional for anyone suffering from something similar, as it's been about two months with only one episode. One strategy that's helped me is reading a book before bed. It calms me down and gives me some down time to de-stress before I sleep. Listening to really calm music, usually just instrumentals, has helped as well in terms of stress and sleep. Again, apologies if this is out of my lane, but these things have really helped personally with these problems.


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## AKkeith (Mar 21, 2016)

Sleep paralysis is the Worst. I have it very sporadically. Outright terrifying when I do.


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## RackMaster (Mar 21, 2016)

@J.S. I appreciate you wanting to help.  I've had PTSD longer than you are probably alive, been in therapy and medicated longer than you have been in school.  

I have had sleep paralysis but not in a long time, it freaked me out.  

@metalmom I understand your fear of antidepressants think of them as a tool.  To help give your mind a break while therapy and other treatments do there thing.


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 21, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> This Minnesota group is taking on the VA in how they treat PTSD
> 
> Forget the VA: Our group can help heal trauma of PTSD



Counterpoint editorial to the article I posted above:

Counterpoint: Don't vilify the VA on treatment for PTSD


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## Marauder06 (Mar 22, 2016)

metalmom said:


> So you were a spelunker. Ever do any diving in those caves if they had the water channels.Whats strange about your dream is I dont see it as symbolic but crazy what sleep apnea can do.How is that now-Ihave heard about devices you can get that will wake you if you stop breathing.



I haven't had night terrors in years.  I think part if it is I no longer drink alcohol before bed.  In fact, I drink very little at all anymore.  One evening a week my office has a Scotch tasting and I have a shot or two there.  Other than that, I don't really consume much alcohol.  I was in Italy all last week and had exactly one beer.

We never did cave diving.  Too dangerous, and the specialized equipment was too expensive.


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## RetPara (Mar 22, 2016)

One other thing to consider that for us lifers; it can all be a cumulative impact.  I was diagnosed with Chronic Depression due to chemical imbalance in '93.   Basically the part of my brain (that still functions no matter what some of you wiseass kids say) will no longer produce enough serotonin.  It was a cumulative effect.  (Probably had something to do with 3 of my 4 ex wifes being strippers or some such shit.)  So I will be on Sertraline until I piss off my wife one time too many.


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## DocIllinois (Mar 22, 2016)

RetPara said:


> (Probably had something to do with 3 of my 4 ex wifes being strippers or some such shit.).



Its good to know that at least one other person has stepped into that particular kind of mess.  :wall::wall:


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 22, 2016)

J.S. said:


> Please let me know if this is out of my lane, but I have some personal experience with night terrors. I've had them for around year and a half and it comes and goes in relation to frequency. Sometimes it's been 3-4 times a week, sometimes I'll go a month with no incident. It's always the scene of my bed, and there's an imminent threat in the room. It's been a bomb, a man leaning over me, but the general theme is the same. I'll initially feel petrified, but wake up screaming covered in cold sweat, occasionally running down the hallway.
> 
> I found a visit to a therapist to be helpful and it was a relief to talk about the episodes fully with someone. I'd highly recommend a visit to a professional for anyone suffering from something similar, as it's been about two months with only one episode. One strategy that's helped me is reading a book before bed. It calms me down and gives me some down time to de-stress before I sleep. Listening to really calm music, usually just instrumentals, has helped as well in terms of stress and sleep. Again, apologies if this is out of my lane, but these things have really helped personally with these problems.



Well; this is a thread with PTSD at it's center. Many high schools have psychologists on staff, and that is the place to go for this sort of thing. If your dreams are affecting your grades, or you fear sleep, it is time to seek help, like you did. Problems with sleep can start when you are using the bed for something other than sleep, and one other thing. If you are reading a Kindle in bed, you will have sleep problems. The same is true if you are using a tablet or IPad in bed, it will impact your ability to sleep. Latest research is going so far as to say keep Cell phones, Tablets, Ipads, and anything with an LED light lights. They do disturb your ability of fall to sleep, and stay there.


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## J.S. (Mar 22, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Well; this is a thread with PTSD at it's center. Many high schools have psychologists on staff, and that is the place to go for this sort of thing. If your dreams are affecting your grades, or you fear sleep, it is time to seek help, like you did. Problems with sleep can start when you are using the bed for something other than sleep, and one other thing. If you are reading a Kindle in bed, you will have sleep problems. The same is true if you are using a tablet or IPad in bed, it will impact your ability to sleep. Latest research is going so far as to say keep Cell phones, Tablets, Ipads, and anything with an LED light lights. They do disturb your ability of fall to sleep, and stay there.



I've heard something similar to that before, regarding the LED lights. Apologies if I've derailed this thread in any way.


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## metalmom (Mar 22, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> I haven't had night terrors in years.  I think part if it is I no longer drink alcohol before bed.  In fact, I drink very little at all anymore.  One evening a week my office has a Scotch tasting and I have a shot or two there.  Other than that, I don't really consume much alcohol.  I was in Italy all last week and had exactly one beer.
> 
> We never did cave diving.  Too dangerous, and the specialized equipment was too expensive.


 Im a drinker-only way I can eat or sleep.Good news is I am getting down in my alcohol intake.Gone down 3 and a half beers in about 2 months.Will keep moving forward with that.Didnt know they could be related-but still cant eat unless drinking. Good for you on basically getting rid of the alcohol.


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## DA SWO (Mar 22, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Well; this is a thread with PTSD at it's center. Many high schools have psychologists on staff, and that is the place to go for this sort of thing. If your dreams are affecting your grades, or you fear sleep, it is time to seek help, like you did. Problems with sleep can start when you are using the bed for something other than sleep, and one other thing. If you are reading a Kindle in bed, you will have sleep problems. The same is true if you are using a tablet or IPad in bed, it will impact your ability to sleep. Latest research is going so far as to say keep Cell phones, Tablets, Ipads, and anything with an LED light lights. They do disturb your ability of fall to sleep, and stay there.


My cell phone is my alarm, and it gets jammed into a hole where no light can show (and I actually have to move in order to shut off the alarm).


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 22, 2016)

J.S. said:


> I've heard something similar to that before, regarding the LED lights. Apologies if I've derailed this thread in any way.



I don't think you derailed anything. Thanks for the input.


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## Brill (Mar 28, 2016)

I really do think that living a rural lifestyle and staying actively engaged in one's food source, desensitized a person to "blood and guts" seen in modern warfare.

Bloody, visceral world of Montana's off-grid butchers - CNN.com


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## 8654Maine (Mar 28, 2016)

I'm not sure if desensitized is the word.  

It just becomes a fact of life.


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## policemedic (Mar 28, 2016)

lindy said:


> I really do think that living a rural lifestyle and staying actively engaged in one's food source, desensitized a person to "blood and guts" seen in modern warfare.
> 
> Bloody, visceral world of Montana's off-grid butchers - CNN.com


 
Grossman would agree.


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## metalmom (Mar 28, 2016)

Lindy-I appreciate your input. Personally I dont have combat PTSD and am so unafraid to talk about what I went through, but I do live semi rural and alone at night recently, especially where I live induces triggers that are very hard to live and deal with.I am afraid that someone will find me again, try to unlawfully confine me and kill me. Thats when I just recently decided I need to own a wpn. Just a quick note-Combat or Battle PTSD is no different than anyone having PTSD. Your PTSD just came from a different source-same symptoms. Thanks for your input.


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## metalmom (Mar 28, 2016)

Lindy-there are times, when you brought up a rural lifestyle, that I just want to go and live in the bush alone and live off the land. So I guess its similar to what you said. Maybe not the alone part. but I think about it more often than I should.


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## DocIllinois (Mar 28, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Well; this is a thread with PTSD at it's center. Many high schools have psychologists on staff, and that is the place to go for this sort of thing. If your dreams are affecting your grades, or you fear sleep, it is time to seek help, like you did. Problems with sleep can start when you are using the bed for something other than sleep, and one other thing. If you are reading a Kindle in bed, you will have sleep problems. The same is true if you are using a tablet or IPad in bed, it will impact your ability to sleep. Latest research is going so far as to say keep Cell phones, Tablets, Ipads, and anything with an LED light lights. They do disturb your ability of fall to sleep, and stay there.



A couple of the latest studies in a mounting collection of evidence to support this hypothesis.

"Overall, we found that the use of portable light-emitting devices immediately before bedtime has biological effects that may perpetuate sleep deficiency and disrupt circadian rhythms, both of which can have adverse impacts on performance, health, and safety."

*Evening use of light-emitting eReaders negatively affects sleep, circadian timing, and next-morning alertness*


"The results showed that computer usage for playing/surfing/reading was positively associated with insomnia, and negatively associated with morningness."

*The association between use of electronic media in bed before going to sleep and insomnia symptoms, daytime sleepiness, morningness, and chronotype*


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## metalmom (Mar 28, 2016)

I have no devices in the room at night so Im clear with that. Interesting though. Have to get my thyroid checked-why-my Dr wants it.Could that ever play a part in sleep or eating or panic and just being irritable.


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## metalmom (Mar 28, 2016)

Bad night for me.Anticipating the worst for tomorrow. Cant wrap my head around it and intellectually its nothing.


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## Brill (Mar 28, 2016)

metalmom said:


> Lindy-there are times, when you brought up a rural lifestyle, that I just want to go and live in the bush alone and live off the land. So I guess its similar to what you said. Maybe not the alone part. but I think about it more often than I should.



I used to work with a woman who retold a story of rafting in Zimbabwe and she nearly drowned.  This was many years later and just retelling the incident brought her to tears.  She will not go near the water now.

Traumatic incidents are not just combat related.

Regarding going alone, sometimes it is nice to just get away and reflect.  When I first came back from Iraq in 2008 I drove cross country from WDC to Seattle and it was very helpful.


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 28, 2016)

metalmom said:


> I have no devices in the room at night so Im clear with that. Interesting though. Have to get my thyroid checked-why-my Dr wants it.Could that ever play a part in sleep or eating or panic and just being irritable.



Thyroid levels, and TSH are players 24/7, and have a big impact in how you feel and act. You may need to see an Endocronologist to get things fine tuned, if your primary care provider sees the need. This can play a part in nearly all the things you have mentioned.


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## metalmom (Mar 28, 2016)

I admire you for taking that trip and know its important to have that time. I am highly agoraphobic and had trauma for about 30 yrs.Talk more tomorrow.


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## metalmom (Mar 28, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Thyroid levels, and TSH are players 24/7, and have a big impact in how you feel and act. You may need to see an Endocronologist to get things fine tuned, if your primary care provider sees the need. This can play a part in nearly all the things you have mentioned.


well off tomorrow to get bloodwork-will let you know the results. so scared of the traveling and results. Have to do it though.Wow-didnt know that could affect so much. thanks.


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 28, 2016)

metalmom said:


> Bad night for me.Anticipating the worst for tomorrow. Cant wrap my head around it and intellectually its nothing.



Something that may help for sleep is Melatonin. You don't need high doses, but timing is important. If I am having some insomnia, I take 3mg about an hour or so before bed time. It can take the place of other stronger sleep aids. Before going to perscription meds, try adding some Benadryl 25 or 50mg at bed time first. You need to be aware of what you are really looking for. Are you are looking for the impact of prescriptive meds, or something to help you sleep? There is a difference. For anyone taking sleeping meds, what are you really looking for,a natural night's sleep, or a psychic impacting effect, be honest?


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 28, 2016)

metalmom said:


> well off tomorrow to get bloodwork-will let you know the results. so scared of the traveling and results. Have to do it though.Wow-didnt know that could affect so much. thanks.



The results will be normal, or abnormal. If they are abnormal, medical management with tablets are generally enough to handle most problems. Sometimes in a thyroid workup, a thyroid ultrasound can be done right in the office. No need to panic here. My wife has been dealing with thyroid issues since '89.


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## DocIllinois (Mar 28, 2016)

More than 12 percent of the US population will develop a thyroid condition during their lifetime.  Modern medicine offers very effective techniques for addressing these conditions if necessary. 

Undiagnosed thyroid disease can put one at risk for cardiovascular diseases and osteoporosis; you are definitely doing the right thing getting tested and treated_ if _need be, IMO.


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## metalmom (Mar 29, 2016)

DocIllinois said:


> More than 12 percent of the US population will develop a thyroid condition during their lifetime.  Modern medicine offers very effective techniques for addressing these conditions if necessary.
> 
> Undiagnosed thyroid disease can put one at risk for cardiovascular diseases and osteoporosis; you are definitely doing the right thing getting tested and treated_ if _need be, IMO.


 That wouldnt have anything to do with my high BP reading-would it? If I have an overactive thyroid.


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## metalmom (Mar 29, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> The results will be normal, or abnormal. If they are abnormal, medical management with tablets are generally enough to handle most problems. Sometimes in a thyroid workup, a thyroid ultrasound can be done right in the office. No need to panic here. My wife has been dealing with thyroid issues since '89.


 Dont know how long before the results are sent to my Dr. but seeing him April 7th for another BPcheck.I have such tightening of the throat and cant swallow like normal people. If needed glad they are tablets. Have to chew my clonazepam.


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## DocIllinois (Mar 29, 2016)

metalmom said:


> That wouldnt have anything to do with my high BP reading-would it? If I have an overactive thyroid.



Hyperthyroidism can be a possible cause of hypertension, but the GP or Endocrinologist with intimate case knowledge should be determining any cause and effect relationship.


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## metalmom (Mar 29, 2016)

DocIllinois said:


> Hyperthyroidism can be a possible cause of hypertension, but the GP or Endocrinologist with intimate case knowledge should be determining any cause and effect relationship.


 Thanks. Very glad there are some great people here that know about these things.You and Red Flag have been a tremendous help.


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## metalmom (Mar 29, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Something that may help for sleep is Melatonin. You don't need high doses, but timing is important. If I am having some insomnia, I take 3mg about an hour or so before bed time. It can take the place of other stronger sleep aids. Before going to perscription meds, try adding some Benadryl 25 or 50mg at bed time first. You need to be aware of what you are really looking for. Are you are looking for the impact of prescriptive meds, or something to help you sleep? There is a difference. For anyone taking sleeping meds, what are you really looking for,a natural night's sleep, or a psychic impacting effect, be honest?


 I would want something more natural for sleep. Heard about some teas that help as well-probably going to pick one up this week. Heard a bit about Melatonin.Thanks for the suggestion.


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 29, 2016)

metalmom said:


> Heard a bit about Melatonin.Thanks for the suggestion.



Melatonin has been a miracle supplement for me. 3 Mg an hour before bed and I'm "out". Observation though - be ready to get into bed once you begin feeling tired. I've fought thru it a could times and then I was up all night.


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## metalmom (Mar 29, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Melatonin has been a miracle supplement for me. 3 Mg an hour before bed and I'm "out". Observation though - be ready to get into bed once you begin feeling tired. I've fought thru it a could times and then I was up all night.


 Does it come in tablets,horse pills or liquid?


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 29, 2016)

Tiny tablets. I've seen it as small gel caps too.


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## metalmom (Mar 29, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Tiny tablets. I've seen it as small gel caps too.


 Good to know they come in tiny tablets.Thanks.


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## RetPara (Mar 29, 2016)

You can't overdose, but a dependency can be built up.


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## metalmom (Mar 29, 2016)

Thanks for the info. I can venture to guess that many people who have PTSD etc are given meds that are very addictive. I only take clonazepam-but never  abused them, except now they arent working as good. Not that people abuse their meds, I mean I stayed stable at about 3 a day when Im allowed 6-and take all 6 when leaving the house only. Great to know you cant OD on that.


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## medicchick (Mar 29, 2016)

metalmom said:


> Does it come in tablets,horse pills or liquid?


Mine are 3mg and a bit smaller than an aspirin.  I've also had good luck with the MidNight melting tabs and there is a spray for (Goodnight I think) but I haven't used that. I avoid the tea just because if I drink any kind before bed I'm up a few times.  I use it a few times a month when I really just NEED to sleep.  That or Benadryl are my go to sleep aids.


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## metalmom (Mar 29, 2016)

Thanks. Red Flag also mentioned Benadryl-thought that was just for allergies. Need sleep aids because trying to get off the beer which helps me sleep and eat. Heard I can get my throat frozen-but no way I am doing that to eat.


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## AWP (Mar 29, 2016)

As someone who has chased the sleep dragon for years, I would caution anyone against the long term usage of a sleep aid. At a bare minimum you'll have to mix it up to avoid a dependency, even OTC meds.

Melatonin, Benadryl (also the active ingredient in most "PM" pain meds or Zzzquil), sublingual gel caps, a small snack, and even a shot of booze with one of the above...large doses, small doses, mixing the meds will all work, but at some point I've had to suck it up and go without, allowing myself to "detox" as it were. I have yet to meet anyone who didn't develop a dependency on OTC meds and prescription sleep medication is the devil.


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## metalmom (Mar 29, 2016)

After you detoxed and went off did you figure out a way to sleep.When I didnt have beer here-which is rare, stayed up at least 3 full days and nights and to this day day cant nap. Napping makes me sit up gasping for air. Dont know why. Any suggestions I would gladly take or at least consider.


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## DA SWO (Mar 29, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> As someone who has chased the sleep dragon for years, I would caution anyone against the long term usage of a sleep aid. At a bare minimum you'll have to mix it up to avoid a dependency, even OTC meds.
> 
> Melatonin, Benadryl (also the active ingredient in most "PM" pain meds or Zzzquil), sublingual gel caps, a small snack, and even a shot of booze with one of the above...large doses, small doses, mixing the meds will all work, but at some point I've had to suck it up and go without, allowing myself to "detox" as it were. I have yet to meet anyone who didn't develop a dependency on OTC meds and prescription sleep medication is the devil.


That's what I do with most of my long-term meds.


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## metalmom (Mar 29, 2016)

metalmom said:


> I admire you for taking that trip and know its important to have that time. I am highly agoraphobic and had trauma for about 30 yrs.Talk more tomorrow.


I would love to have some alone time-not just to reflect but yell and scream and get some stuff out of my system.The bush would be a good place. I remember when I wasnt agoraphobic and hubby and I traveled the northern states from down east all the way up into B.C.Camped all the way and took us a month. Maybe I will rent a cabin even for a weekend-its getting there thats the hard part. Think I will work on that as a short term goal. Keep moving forward as they say. I think you taking that trip alone inspired me.


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 29, 2016)

metalmom said:


> I would want something more natural for sleep. Heard about some teas that help as well-probably going to pick one up this week. Heard a bit about Melatonin.Thanks for the suggestion.



The most common mistakes with Melatonin are: 1. taking too much; 2. Taking it too late. 

Melatonin is non-habit forming, and pretty natural. Start with 3mg, 45 minutes to an hour before bed.


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## metalmom (Mar 29, 2016)

Well-going to try it. Probably after I see my Dr. About a week. What is the expense-my meds are covered, maybe I can get this covered too through ODSP.


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## medicchick (Mar 29, 2016)

metalmom said:


> Well-going to try it. Probably after I see my Dr. About a week. What is the expense-my meds are covered, maybe I can get this covered too through ODSP.


I paid ~ $4 for the NatureMade brand bottle of 120 3mg pills at the pharmacy but even the dollar store here carries it.


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## metalmom (Mar 29, 2016)

medicchick said:


> I paid ~ $4 for the NatureMade brand bottle of 120 3mg pills at the pharmacy but even the dollar store here carries it.


haha-4 bucks is nothing. Probably cost me 20 up here lol Thought they would be much more.


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## pardus (Mar 30, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> The most common mistakes with Melatonin are: 1. taking too much; 2. Taking it too late.
> 
> Melatonin is non-habit forming, and pretty natural. Start with 3mg, 45 minutes to an hour before bed.



So what happens when you get up to 30mg Melatonin  + 25 mg Diphenhydramine and nothing happens? :-/:wall:


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## AWP (Mar 30, 2016)

metalmom said:


> After you detoxed and went off did you figure out a way to sleep.



Yeah...I was exhausted enough to sleep after a few nights. It sucks, but there it is. I'm a lightweight by some standards, and indeed some members of this board have sent me their "elite level" sleep cocktail, but I've been up to 50mg of Benadryl, 9mg of melatonin, and 800mg of Skelaxin just to sleep 6 hours. We have members here who consider that "a nap" which is pretty frightening.

I have TMJ, that condition where you clench your jaw when sleeping. I've noticed a greater likelihood of this when I take Melatonin, but that's all anecdotal of course. 

I vary what I take and when I take it. Some nights I just accept I'm going to sleep tomorrow and I suck it up. On the plus side, I've played a lot of video games....


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 30, 2016)

pardus said:


> So what happens when you get up to 30mg Melatonin  + 25 mg Diphenhydramine and nothing happens? :-/:wall:



Time to see your doc, to see if  prescription sleep aides are called for. There are "sleep labs" that look specifically at sleep disorders. Many things impact sleep, including difficulty falling to sleep, and events that disturb one's quality of sleep. Sleep apnea is one of the common disorders that sleep labs are able to identify. As with most health related things, it is hard to treat something if you don't have a diagnosis to work with. I know I am preaching to the choir here, but there are many things that get in the way of a good night's sleep.


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## metalmom (Mar 30, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Yeah...I was exhausted enough to sleep after a few nights. It sucks, but there it is. I'm a lightweight by some standards, and indeed some members of this board have sent me their "elite level" sleep cocktail, but I've been up to 50mg of Benadryl, 9mg of melatonin, and 800mg of Skelaxin just to sleep 6 hours. We have members here who consider that "a nap" which is pretty frightening.
> 
> I have TMJ, that condition where you clench your jaw when sleeping. I've noticed a greater likelihood of this when I take Melatonin, but that's all anecdotal of course.
> 
> I vary what I take and when I take it. Some nights I just accept I'm going to sleep tomorrow and I suck it up. On the plus side, I've played a lot of video games....


 Lack of sleep sucks.Hate the nausea I feel from not sleeping well. Still using my beer as a sleep aid.I got one of my test results back from yesterday.May need antibiotics and dont think I can drink with them.

Thank God for my xbox.I game a lot-but as they say whatever gets you through the night.Wish you better and longer sleeps. BTW- my POV is that 6 hrs of sleep is OK unless you feel you arent functioning at your normal level. Have had the TMJ-but only sporadically.Worse when I was a teen.


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## DocIllinois (Mar 30, 2016)

6 hours is ok if you have a fair amount of energy to do what you'd like to do during the day, IMO.

Since my most recent deployment I always wake feeling like I've gotten enough sleep, but never feel well rested.


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## metalmom (Mar 30, 2016)

Never feel rested no matter how long I sleep. My cause I would assume are my scaremares and thrashing around in bed.I supposedly talk in my sleep and have actually slugged my husband without being aware on many occasions. My worry for lack of good sleep is that good sleeps are healing-if you are sick etc.


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 30, 2016)

metalmom said:


> Lack of sleep sucks.Hate the nausea I feel from not sleeping well. Still using my beer as a sleep aid.I got one of my test results back from yesterday.May need antibiotics and dont think I can drink with them.
> 
> Thank God for my xbox.I game a lot-but as they say whatever gets you through the night.Wish you better and longer sleeps. BTW- my POV is that 6 hrs of sleep is OK unless you feel you arent functioning at your normal level. Have had the TMJ-but only sporadically.Worse when I was a teen.



I hope your labs come back normal. I know what it is like waiting, from both sides of the scrubs.

Just a general word or two about alcohol, ETOH, and sleep. First off, if you are putting away heavy amounts of ETOH, sudden stoppage can be dangerous. If, for example, your are putting away around a case of beer a day, the risk of dangerous withdrawl symptoms if rather high. Complications can include pneumonia, and Grand Mal Siezures. You can look at ETOH intake of a can of beer, a single wineglass of wine, and a shot of hard stuff to be about the same dose of ETOH for each. ETOH is both a stimulant, in small doses of two drinks. It takes away inhabitions, and makes people feel good, and more relaxed. After that, ETOH depresses the Central Nervous System ( CNS). This is where the "sleep dose" begins.

To understand the effects of ETOH on the CNS and sleep, it helps to understand the normal sleep patterns. Normal sleep is a cyclic event including Rapid Eye Movement sleep stage  ( REM ), and a few deeper levels of sleep. Normal sleep is a cylic event, up and down through the planes of sleep, including REM sleep. The plane of sleep that is vital to waking feeling refreshed, is the REM stage. It is the shallowest plane, and is the time our brains play around some and give us our dreams. Without the REM sleep, we awake feeling less refreshed. High levels of ETOH, and some Barbiturates drive us from awake to deep stages of sleep, and limit, or eleminate the needed REM sleep our brains need. The result is waking feeling tired, and unrefreshed. So think of that if you are using ETOH as a sleep aide.

There are sleep aides, both OTC and by perscription that take you from awake to sleep rather quickly, and then allow our brains to cycle normally through the rest of the night.

Perhaps the above will help explain the elements of normal sleep, and how outside things can impact our sleep.


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## metalmom (Mar 30, 2016)

Had a call at 9 am from my Drs receptionist.Just did this yesterday at the lab.

Ihave gone down well in my beer-but if I need antibiotics and cant drink-what then? I dont want a possible seizure worry . I also cant swallow those horse pills. Freaking and bloodwork-no news.

Mod edit: Best to keep your lab results private.


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 30, 2016)

metalmom said:


> Had a call at 9 am from my Drs receptionist.Just did this yesterday at the lab.
> 
> Ihave gone down well in my beer-but if I need antibiotics and cant drink-what then? I dont want a possible seizure worry . I also cant swallow those horse pills. Freaking and bloodwork-no news.
> 
> Mod edit: Best to keep your lab results private.



If you need to take antibiotics, just chat with your doctor so he/she knows your about your ETOH usage.

To be realistic, there are a lot of people who take antibiotics along with their alcohol despite the warning on the pill bottle.


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## metalmom (Mar 30, 2016)

okay-thanks for red pencilling my results out.Had no clue not to do that.


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## DA SWO (Mar 30, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> If you need to take antibiotics, just chat with your doctor so he/she knows your about your ETOH usage.
> 
> To be realistic, there are a lot of people who take antibiotics along with their alcohol despite the warning on the pill bottle.


I miss my nighttime beer.


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## DocIllinois (Mar 30, 2016)

Agree with running ETOH use by your doc.

Effects of mixing the two can range from 'not much' up to more severe reactions, depending on the ABX.  Best to not take the gamble.


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## metalmom (Mar 31, 2016)

Oh boy-was just going to take a few days off of SS to walk and concentrate on my well being. My Dr knows a lot about my ETOH. Went from 10 beer down to 6 and a half. Moving forward. Reason I am posting-though my results taken off-and thanks for that I am trying to become invested in my health. Maybe only a couple of you know that result Iposted but again can affect BP.But there is no need for antibiotics in most cases.71 percent of women healed naturally. Source-Wiki how. Thanks for all your awesome support Red Flag and DocIllinois.


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## metalmom (May 22, 2016)

Wasnt sure if I should park this in Health Concerns-but decided this may be the place. We discussed Melatonin and now would like to discuss the benefits of Vitamin D..Anyone have their views on this? I am talking not from food sources but supplementation and getting some rays. Sorry dont have the source yet-but US Government looking into this in regards to TBIs-PTSD etc. Want to thank someone so much for sharing with me.Any thoughts on this?


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## metalmom (May 22, 2016)

Anyway starting on a Vit D-regiment-but so much conflicting info on how much to take and toxicity.


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## RackMaster (May 23, 2016)

Vitamin D is a great idea, especially if you don'tspend much time outside.   My Dr has me taking a 1000 iu tablet a day.  Ask the pharmacist about specific concerns.


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## DocIllinois (May 23, 2016)

metalmom said:


> Anyway starting on a Vit D-regiment-but so much conflicting info on how much to take and toxicity.



That's because, outside of supplementation for those with low blood levels, there is extremely poor evidence that Vit D supplementation has any effect on any other health condition.

There is a large body of research that has established the potential dangers of excess Vit D in those without an actual deficiency, however.


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## Bypass (May 23, 2016)

Out of curiosity.


How much sleep do you get a night?
Been blown up?
Shot at?
Returned fire?
Lost a friend?
Mortared daily?
Scared at some point you might die?
No longer care if you live or die? 
Just in it for your brothers and sisters and not worried about yourself anymore?
Divorced?
Can't hold down a job?
Can't deal with crowds?
Jump every time a car backfires?

I bet more vets have PTSD than will admit it. Thinking you are taking the high road by not seeking help and suffering through your condition isn't helping you or anyone close to you. 

Just my 2 cents on the matter.


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## Marauder06 (May 23, 2016)

Some of those are, as you said, potential indicators of PTSD.  But they're also indicators of other conditions, some of which are far less severe, or can be handled by different treatments than the ones currently offered for PTSD.  Some of the outcomes you listed are often blamed on PTSD when that may or may not be the case.


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## Bypass (May 23, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Some of those are, as you said, potential indicators of PTSD.  But they're also indicators of other conditions, some of which are far less severe, or can be handled by different treatments than the ones currently offered for PTSD.  Some of the outcomes you listed are often blamed on PTSD when that may or may not be the case.


I suppose you are right about that but more often than not a post traumatic stress disorder is the cause but I will say you are right on some of those. Divorces just happen even when someone has been happily married for years. Some people just can't hold down a job and some people are just born aghoraphobic (err... I can't spell that and am not motivated to look it up).


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## Devildoc (May 23, 2016)

DocIllinois said:


> That's because, outside of supplementation for those with low blood levels, there is extremely poor evidence that Vit D supplementation has any effect on any other health condition.
> 
> There is a large body of research that has established the potential dangers of excess Vit D in those without an actual deficiency, however.



Agreed, but they are looking at links (e.g., correlation vs caustion) between vitamin D and PTSD as it relates to low testosterone.  There was an article The Journal of Special Operations Medicine regarding this.

You right in that they key is that most people who suffer from psychiatric s/s as it relates to vitamin D is because of a deficiency; as well as the potential dangers from toxicity.


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## metalmom (May 23, 2016)

Bypass said:


> Out of curiosity.
> Hardly slept at all for yrs-now sleeping better.Never saw combat-so never been blown up.Shot at-hell yeah.Lost too many friends to count.Never mortared daily-lol-1st date was a picnic on a mortar range.Scared I might die-another Hell Yeah-I am agoraphobic-hardcore.Cant deal with crowds and when I have heard a car backfire I hit the deck..There are a lot of people here that have PTSD and they are not ready to come forward. And thats OK.
> 
> How much sleep do you get a night?
> ...


 


Bypass said:


> Out of curiosity.
> 
> 
> How much sleep do you get a night?
> ...


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## metalmom (May 23, 2016)

The founding father in Vit D  in preventative med and curing diseases suggests 10,000 IU a day.Sounds like a lot.Though scientists call this a vitamin it is  actually not.Thank you for all your responses


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## metalmom (May 24, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> Vitamin D is a great idea, especially if you don'tspend much time outside.   My Dr has me taking a 1000 iu tablet a day.  Ask the pharmacist about specific concerns.


 Will do-first things first should find if I have a defiency. My family has called me Vampiress because for yrs lived in a very dark house and didnt get outside and catch some rays. Just a blood test I presume.


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## metalmom (May 24, 2016)

I didnt elaborate on the 10,000 IUs-he recommended that for cancer patients--Dr. Cedric Garland.

What surprised me in my research-and have a load more to research and cross reference comes from The Journal of Oncology Practice. Not only can Vit D block the growth of cancer tumours but in the form of Calcitriol -it encourages cells to adapt  to their organs or commit apoptosis-cell suicide.Calcitriol also limits blood supply to a tumour.

Mercola.com-suggests Vit D just doesnt cure cancer but also infections.

If  Vit D can do all that then maybe it can really help with TBIs ,PTSD and more.As I said I have to do a lot more research. I really hope it can help with PTSD.


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## TLDR20 (May 25, 2016)

Not attacking here, just some thoughts. Just because something may work on one thing, doesn't mean it will help with another. TBI and cancer are not similar in any way. PTSD is not even known to have a physical cause. Other than enhancing mood, Vitamin D would probably have very little effect in helping. Things that might really help, going into the sun! Your body is the best creator of Vitamin D. People have vitamin D deficiency because they spend all day inside. Other things you should look into for treatment of PTSD, TBI, medical marijuana, which I believe is legal in Canada...? Medical marijuana has been shown to reduce swelling in the brain, and can help with the depression aspect of PTSD. 

Arain, M., Khan, M., Craig, L., and Nakanishi, S.T. (2015, March). Cannabinoid agonist rescues learning and memory after a traumatic brain injury. Annals of Clinical and Translational Neurology, 2(3), 289-94. 

Lopez-Rodriguez, A.B., Siopi, E., Finn, D.P., Marchand-Leroux, C., Garcia-Segura, L.M., Jafarian-Tehrani, M., and Viveros, M.P. (2015, January). CB1 and CB2 cannabinoid receptor antagonists prevent minocycline-induced neuroprotection following traumatic brain injury in mice. Cerebral Cortex, 25(1), 35-45.


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## DocIllinois (May 25, 2016)

metalmom said:


> Mercola.com-suggests Vit D just doesnt cure cancer but also infections.



I _strongly_ recommend not considering anything published by Dr. Joseph Mercola to be a credible source of information, especially on subjects related to health care.


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## R.Caerbannog (May 25, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Not attacking here, just some thoughts. Just because something may work on one thing, doesn't mean it will help with another. TBI and cancer are not similar in any way. PTSD is not even known to have a physical cause. Other than enhancing mood, Vitamin D would probably have very little effect in helping. Things that might really help, going into the sun! Your body is the best creator of Vitamin D. People have vitamin D deficiency because they spend all day inside. Other things you should look into for treatment of PTSD, TBI, medical marijuana, which I believe is legal in Canada...? Medical marijuana has been shown to reduce swelling in the brain, and can help with the depression aspect of PTSD.
> 
> Arain, M., Khan, M., Craig, L., and Nakanishi, S.T. (2015, March). Cannabinoid agonist rescues learning and memory after a traumatic brain injury. Annals of Clinical and Translational Neurology, 2(3), 289-94.
> 
> Lopez-Rodriguez, A.B., Siopi, E., Finn, D.P., Marchand-Leroux, C., Garcia-Segura, L.M., Jafarian-Tehrani, M., and Viveros, M.P. (2015, January). CB1 and CB2 cannabinoid receptor antagonists prevent minocycline-induced neuroprotection following traumatic brain injury in mice. Cerebral Cortex, 25(1), 35-45.



If tests were on mice, would the same results be applied to people? I'm not sure if there has been human testing on this. Went through the methods and how they administered the tests, and I'm a bit fuzzy on the method that they used to introduce the drugs to the mice. From my limited understanding, they injected the drug through a saline solution. For your average Joe they might smoke it or consume it orally. So I don't really see how the average Joe (who has legal access to this stuff) is going to be able to replicate similar results.

I'm probably way off base and if I apologize in advance if I don't make sense.


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## Red Flag 1 (May 25, 2016)

DocIllinois said:


> I _strongly_ recommend not considering anything published by Dr. Joseph Mercola to be a credible source of information, especially on subjects related to health care.



I don't have a dog in this discussion. On page one after Gooogle-fu:Dr. Joseph Mercola Ordered to Stop Illegal Claims.This is an MD authored article; I'm just saying.


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## TLDR20 (May 25, 2016)

R.Caerbannog said:


> If tests were on mice, would the same results be applied to people? I'm not sure if there has been human testing on this. Went through the methods and how they administered the tests, and I'm a bit fuzzy on the method that they used to introduce the drugs to the mice. From my limited understanding, they injected the drug through a saline solution. For your average Joe they might smoke it or consume it orally. So I don't really see how the average Joe (who has legal access to this stuff) is going to be able to replicate similar results.
> 
> I'm probably way off base and if I apologize in advance if I don't make sense.



Well this is preliminary science. It is hard to experiment with medical marijuana due to it being schedule 1.


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## DocIllinois (May 25, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I don't have a dog in this discussion. On page one after Gooogle-fu:Dr. Joseph Mercola Ordered to Stop Illegal Claims.This is an MD authored article; I'm just saying.



I have a big dog in that fight - this doc and his "natural" med site soils the practice environment in my state.

I fart in his general direction.


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## R.Caerbannog (May 25, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Well this is preliminary science. It is hard to experiment with medical marijuana due to it being schedule 1.


I guess it'll be interesting when/if human experimentation starts to take place. Not a proponent of marijuana, but I do look forward to seeing any new medical advancements in the treatment of TBI and PTS.


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## Red Flag 1 (May 25, 2016)

DocIllinois said:


> I have a big dog in that fight - this doc and his "natural" med site soils the practice environment in my state.
> 
> I fart in his general direction.



Aah, shades of Monty Python, a man after my own heart. I prefer to wave my private parts at him

There is a huge gray area of medically unregulated dietary supplements. They are not regulated with and form of investigations like the FDA. The same dietary supplement made by companies X Y & Z. They all contain the same mgms/units, pick your measured amount. What is not looked at very well is how much of the dietary supplement actually makes it to the body's microvasculature, and cells. The carrier agent in the supplements vary, this changes how much of the supplement is made available as it makes it's way though the digestive tract. So if you are taking these dietary supplements, try to find information about how much actually winds up in circulation.

If you do much research about almost anything, medicine included, you can find plenty of data to back up your side of the argument. To do a complete research on a particular point, you must begin with no point to prove. It is an exhaustive and time consuming undertaking. Keep in mind that there is probably enough data to back both sides, of an opinion. So, the question is, which side of the argument are you on? Then spend some time reading data supporting the other side of the argument.


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## RackMaster (May 25, 2016)

R.Caerbannog said:


> I guess it'll be interesting when/if human experimentation starts to take place. Not a proponent of marijuana, but I do look forward to seeing any new medical advancements in the treatment of TBI and PTS.



It's already happening and there is an increasing # of Veterans in Canada going the medical marijuana route for PTSD and some chronic pain, among other things.  I've heard some with TBI can't use it due to damage to our own canninaboid system.  There's also a great movement away from smoking.  Vaporizing and consuming edibles is the most common way.  From research I've read, it's proving the therapeutic effects are greatly increased from ingestion and it's more from CBD and not THC.  

@metalmom I'll send you some info that might help.


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## DocIllinois (May 25, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> If you do much research about almost anything, medicine included, you can find plenty of data to back up your side of the argument. To do a complete research on a particular point, you must begin with no point to prove. It is an exhaustive and time consuming undertaking. Keep in mind that there is probably enough data to back both sides, of an opinion. So, the question is, which side of the argument are you on? Then spend some time reading data supporting the other side of the argument.



All true, and this is where systematic reviews, meta analyses, SME consensus comes in.

If none of these exist then I withhold conclusive opinion and application in practice.  

I recognize that other practitioner's approaches may vary on this.


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## metalmom (May 25, 2016)

First off thank you for making me aware of Mercola.com.

As far as medicinal pot goes I have not researched this. My son is completely straight edge but since he works with youth and has to deal with depression and anxiety and went to many seminars he thinks I should view that as an option.

As I just told someone back in the Cheech and Chong days I smoked a few joints-instant paranoia. Most likely because the weed was laced with something not good.Another thing to research and think about. Great points.


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## metalmom (May 25, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Aah, shades of Monty Python, a man after my own heart. I prefer to wave my private parts at him
> 
> There is a huge gray area of medically unregulated dietary supplements. They are not regulated with and form of investigations like the FDA. The same dietary supplement made by companies X Y & Z. They all contain the same mgms/units, pick your measured amount. What is not looked at very well is how much of the dietary supplement actually makes it to the body's microvasculature, and cells. The carrier agent in the supplements vary, this changes how much of the supplement is made available as it makes it's way though the digestive tract. So if you are taking these dietary supplements, try to find information about how much actually winds up in circulation.
> 
> If you do much research about almost anything, medicine included, you can find plenty of data to back up your side of the argument. To do a complete research on a particular point, you must begin with no point to prove. It is an exhaustive and time consuming undertaking. Keep in mind that there is probably enough data to back both sides, of an opinion. So, the question is, which side of the argument are you on? Then spend some time reading data supporting the other side of the argument.


 I absolutely agree with your last paragraph. I am going to say I like to debunk things from either side to get to the nitty gritty . I agree it is time consuming ang exhaustive but worth the effort.I have a lot of work to do-but totally understand and hear you.


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## DocIllinois (Nov 2, 2017)

A study exploring the possible link between variations in microbiota-influenced immunoregulation and PTSD.   

The Microbiome in Posttraumatic Stress Disorder and Trauma-Exposed Controls: An Exploratory Study

"Conclusions: In this exploratory study, measures of overall microbial diversity were similar among individuals with PTSD and TE controls; however, decreased total abundance of Actinobacteria, Lentisphaerae, and Verrucomicrobia was associated with PTSD status."


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## Marauder06 (Nov 2, 2017)

Interesting.  I wonder if people with these decreased levels are simply more prone to PTSD or if the PTSD causes the drop.  I would guess he former.


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## Kakashi66223 (Nov 3, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> Interesting.  I wonder if people with these decreased levels are simply more prone to PTSD or if the PTSD causes the drop.  I would guess he former.



Stress and fatigue change your body, I'm no doctor, but I wouldn't pass on your second reason either, "that this drop maybe an cause/effect result." But it does sound like a "PTSD litmus test" could be on the horizon.


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## Serenity (Nov 3, 2017)

DocIllinois said:


> study exploring the possible link between variations in microbiota-influenced immunoregulation and PTSD.
> 
> The Microbiome in Posttraumatic Stress Disorder and Trauma-Exposed Controls: An Exploratory Study
> 
> "Conclusions: In this exploratory study, measures of overall microbial diversity were similar among individuals with PTSD and TE controls; however, decreased total abundance of Actinobacteria, Lentisphaerae, and Verrucomicrobia was associated with PTSD status."



Oh crap, I can't read the study, am I the only one here who isn't subscribed and doesn't want to spend almost US $700 to read...  I'll just google the microbiome referenced to figure out what is being discussed here.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 3, 2017)

.


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