# Tarantino: Dipsh*t of the Week- All Cops are Bad



## JBS (Jan 6, 2016)

All Cops are Bad; That's what Quentin Tarantino Says, anyway.  

My guess is he's getting bitter since he hasn't made a good movie since Pulp Fiction, 20 years ago.

Tarantino: I ‘Utterly Reject’ Argument That Only Some Cops Are Bad



> Quentin Tarantino continues to stand by anti-police comments he made earlier this fall in a new interview, saying he “completely rejects” the “bad apples” argument that only a small number of police officers behave inappropriately on the job.
> 
> In an interview with _Entertainment Weekly_ on Monday (and in an interview with Howard Stern last week), the _Hateful Eight_ director put the blame for some instances of police brutality on the “institutional racism” of the profession.





> “I completely and utterly reject the bad apples argument,” the director told _EW_. “Chicago just got caught with their pants down in a way that can’t be denied. But I completely and utterly reject the ‘few bad apples’ argument. Yeah, the guy who shot [Laquan McDonald] is a bad apple. But so are the other eight or nine cops that were there that said nothing, did nothing, let a lie stand for an entire year.”
> 
> “And the chief of police, is he a bad apple?” Tarantino continued. “I think he is. Is [Chicago Mayor] Rahm Emanuel a bad apple? I think he is. They’re all bad apples. That just shows that that’s a bulls*** argument. It’s about institutional racism. It’s about institutional cover-ups that are about protecting the force as opposed to the citizens.”


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## Grunt (Jan 6, 2016)

He is a crumb of the highest order. He has to keep his name in the media some how -- since he isn't doing anything of value anywhere else -- might as well jump on the ole bandwagon.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 6, 2016)

JBS said:


> My guess is he's getting bitter since he hasn't made a good movie since Pulp Fiction, 20 years ago.



Django and Basterds were both good.

And institutional racism is a thing. Bad apples perpetrate it, but it continues nonetheless. His point is A, he unfortunately went to Z with his argument.


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## Gunz (Jan 6, 2016)

Personally, I like most of his movies because of their weirdness. Me and my son Chris just went to see the Hateful 8. Basterds was probably his best. Tarantino, the Cohen Brothers, and the guys that did the Boondock Saints ...they're an acquired taste.

Just consider the source. All these Hollywood motherfuckers live in a fantasy world and most of them have no business commenting on anything outside of movie-making. Because they're all fucking idiots.


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## JBS (Jan 6, 2016)

I think what he said is irresponsible and idiotic, another self-hating liberal white guy, fanning the flames of hate among minorities towards law enforcement.

In principal, I'll agree with you that it's "a thing", but in my whole life, I can't think of a single clear cut instance of what I'd call institutional racism (in a company, for example).   It's a thing, sure, purely because that's a logical assumption based on how big the country is; somewhere it's got to exist.  But where it's happening in 2015 / 2016, that I would only guess.  This coming from a guy living in the south for a major portion of my life.


TLDR20 said:


> And institutional racism is a thing. Bad apples perpetrate it, but it continues nonetheless. His point is A, he unfortunately went to Z with his argument.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 6, 2016)

http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2015/05/06/institutional-racism-is-our-way-of-life

You can say you haven't seen racism, that is kind of the point. I can't see the systems that benefit me because they are the norm. There is study after study pointing out ways in which the system is designed to keep minorities down. Because I don't experience it and live in the south is just about as irrelevant as can be.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 6, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2015/05/06/institutional-racism-is-our-way-of-life
> 
> You can say you haven't seen racism, that is kind of the point. I can't see the systems that benefit me because they are the norm. There is study after study pointing out ways in which the system is designed to keep minorities down. Because I don't experience it and live in the south is just about as irrelevant as can be.



Which system do you speak of? I've only worked, been involved in three jobs. As a plumber, no discrimination on the government side, possibly shop to shop, but I thankfully never worked for one that was racist. The Army, far from it, and in many ways I saw a reverse affect, where some individuals were promoted and held position who clearly didn't deserve or have the ability, however due to their skin color they had it. In the security industry, there was nothing a saw on the government side that stopped anyone of any race from doing whatever they wanted. However, as the ops manager for a multi million dollar company, I had the race card pulled on me more than once for writing individuals up who failed to fulfill their job duties/performance/disciplinary.

Personally, and this has just been my experience, there is absolutely nothing working against people of different races, and the race issue is only called into question when someone who is not white fails. Fails to follow the law, rules, or in the progression of setting and achieving personal/professional goals.

I'm not saying there are not racist people on all sides, however, I don't believe it falls on the system, I think falls more on individuals, be it a racist cop, judge, employer, or the individual of question themselves. Not necessarily the system, at least in the governmental forms.

$.02


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## AWP (Jan 7, 2016)

Are systems or institutions "racist" or do they just protect their own? Say I'm a racist cop or teacher or whatever, and I do something to someone based upon race. My partner or peers with knowledge of the event say nothing/ do nothing....are they racist or are they looking out for their own? Next week it could be another topic, say religion, and the system rallies around itself. Is ti now anti-/pro- religion based upon that event?

Wrong is wrong, but is it necessarily racist or whatever?


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## DA SWO (Jan 7, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> http://www.usnews.com/news/blogs/at-the-edge/2015/05/06/institutional-racism-is-our-way-of-life
> 
> You can say you haven't seen racism, that is kind of the point. I can't see the systems that benefit me because they are the norm. There is study after study pointing out ways in which the system is designed to keep minorities down. Because I don't experience it and live in the south is just about as irrelevant as can be.


So say I get passed over for promotion because I am white; is that racism or affirmative action?


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## JBS (Jan 7, 2016)

@TLDR20 : I read that whole piece and it's a quilt of statistical patchwork, misappropriated citations, misapplied statistics, unsubstantiated claims, wrong conclusions.

It starts with a bunch of assumptions; the writer already has a conclusion, and then attempts to cite questionable stats that do not necessarily substantiate the claims. That happens over and over throughout the piece. Really the worst I've read in a while.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 7, 2016)

@TLDR20 : I read that whole piece and it's a quilt of statistical patchwork, misappropriated citations, misapplied statistics, unsubstantiated claims, wrong conclusions.

It starts with a bunch of assumptions; the writer already has a conclusion, and then attempts to cite questionable stats that do not necessarily substantiate the claims. That happens over and over throughout the piece. Really the worst I've read in a while.[/QUOTE]

Google institutional racism and you can read hundreds of academic studies. That piece was the first hit on google and attributed claims to stats.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 7, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> So say I get passed over for promotion because I am white; is that racism or affirmative action?



Maybe it is because you were a shitbag....

Honestly you grew up white, went to schools where there probably wasn't an officer who arrests students rather than disciplining, we're not a victim of profiling, were never judged by your name or color of skin. Those are things that are institutionalized. Not individual practices. Is this hard to grasp?


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## Ranger Psych (Jan 7, 2016)

I grew up white, with arrests every day by the SRO of everyone who did stupid shit, couldn't do the majority of school programs (both academic and extracurricular) because I was white and_ they were for minorities only_, and every single day underwent constant judgement/harassment from both student body and faculty.

How hard is that to grasp?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 7, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Maybe it is because you were a shitbag....
> 
> Honestly you grew up white, went to schools where there probably wasn't an officer who arrests students rather than disciplining, we're not a victim of profiling, were never judged by your name or color of skin. Those are things that are institutionalized. Not individual practices. Is this hard to grasp?



So how do explain the thousands of successful black people in our nations history? Say people like Dr Ben Carson who grew up in Detroit, or the many, many men and women throughout our government and private sectors, who are on the very top, to include our current president.

I have no doubt black people get profiled by police, but most crime is committed by black people, so unfortunately the profiling is a product of the day in day out grind of people committing crimes.

I went out last night to play in a pool tournament, as I'm walking up to the bar, a loakked out Hispanic dude is walking towards me from between vehicles, I'm unarmed b/c I'm going into a bar, so low pro pull my folder, open it and get ready for a possible fight. Ended up dude was looking for directions (so he said). No harm done. 

Did I profile him? You bet your ass, if you look like a thug, you gonna get treated like one. Does it make me a racist? My Hispanic wife and her family may think so, by all the jokes I make, but I am not. I don't care what your skin color is, just be good people.


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## Centermass (Jan 7, 2016)

For a guy who glorifies guns, blood and violence in his movies, Time Magazine should name him Hypocrite Of The Year. 

Idiot.


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## DA SWO (Jan 7, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Maybe it is because you were a shitbag....
> 
> Honestly you grew up white, went to schools where there probably wasn't an officer who arrests students rather than disciplining, we're not a victim of profiling, were never judged by your name or color of skin. Those are things that are institutionalized. Not individual practices. Is this hard to grasp?



Sorry to bust your bubble, mixed neighborhoods (unless you consider Mexicans to be white).
Labored my way through College (thanks dad) which meant I was the only white guy working with some pretty nice black guys.
Spent time in front of a Juvenile Judge (hint, that means interaction with the Police).
Luckily, I decided IL wasn't for me, and then concentrated on making money for school (that, and my mom giving me the permanent grounding).
Quite frankly, your assumptions about me could be (mis)construed as racism.  As my last EEO class instructor said "assuming things about someone is a subtle form of racism".

As far as getting passed over, no I wasn't a shitbag; I was a white male in a time when POTUS/SECDEF decided non-white male were victims of discrimination and deserved a higher promotion rate. 

But if calling me a shit bag makes you happy, go for it.


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## Frank S. (Jan 7, 2016)

Back to Tarantino, there are two scenes that stand out from "Reservoir Dogs" and may have bearing on the convo: the scene where Harvey Keitel empties two Nines into the windshield of a cop car, and the scene where Michael Madsen slices off the ear off a cop tied to a chair.
Fast forward almost 25 years, and it's possible the Black Lives Matter movement is offering him a chance to see himself as a visionary and convince the Academy of such.
This here debate about institutionalized isms is more interesting, though...


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## Frank S. (Jan 7, 2016)

Frank S. said:


> This here debate about institutionalized isms is more interesting, though...



Here's a question: are rating systems a new form of discrimination? An extension of existing discrimination? Or maybe even a validation thereof..?


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## TLDR20 (Jan 7, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Sorry to bust your bubble, mixed neighborhoods (unless you consider Mexicans to be white).
> Labored my way through College (thanks dad) which meant I was the only white guy working with some pretty nice black guys.
> Spent time in front of a Juvenile Judge (hint, that means interaction with the Police).
> Luckily, I decided IL wasn't for me, and then concentrated on making money for school (that, and my mom giving me the permanent grounding).
> ...



Oh gimme a break if you can't take a fucking joke.

Plenty of white guys got promoted just fine all throughout our militaries history. I'll respond in full later, but if you guys honestly think individual examples can explain an entire system the argument isn't worth having.


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## fox1371 (Jan 8, 2016)

I see I chose an awesome time to come back to ShadowSpear haha.  

I've heard all the Tarrantino bashing, and I have to mostly agree with him.  There are countless examples of LEO's covering up for other LEO's.  Many departments are perfectly fine overstepping their bounds and extending their authority to police others, meanwhile they fail to police their own.  Before anyone on here gets all butthurt, this is not a blanket statement towards all LEO's.  Nor do I think Tarrantino's statement was either.  He's merely saying that the issue is more than just a few bad apples...and I agree.


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## Centermass (Jan 8, 2016)

fox1371 said:


> I see I chose an awesome time to come back to ShadowSpear haha.
> 
> I've heard all the Tarrantino bashing, and I have to mostly agree with him.  There are countless examples of LEO's covering up for other LEO's.  Many departments are perfectly fine overstepping their bounds and extending their authority to police others, meanwhile they fail to police their own.  Before anyone on here gets all butthurt, this is not a blanket statement towards all LEO's.  Nor do I think Tarrantino's statement was either.  He's merely saying that the issue is more than just a few bad apples...and I agree.



Glad you agree with him.  

Next time he needs assistance, he should call Samuel L Jackson, Harvey Keitel or anyone within the membership of BLM, instead of 911.


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## fox1371 (Jan 8, 2016)

Centermass said:


> Glad you agree with him.
> 
> Next time he needs assistance, he should call Samuel L Jackson, Harvey Keitel or anyone within the membership of BLM, instead of 911.


Great response.    Obviously 911 calls prevent violent events from ever taking place anyways.  

Seriously though...You don't think there's an issue with our current LE institution?  This whole mindset of, "I'll do whatever I need to do to make it home at night?"  The perversion of the "Thin Blue Line," mantra is disgusting.  Civil rights are trampled on on a regular basis.  Shit, President Nixon resigned his presidency for what is now common practice for LEOs.  Too often the LE community thinks that citizens are incapable of doing for themselves...and that LEO's are somehow this beacon of light...the "sheapdog," as I see plastered everywhere.  It's the most retarded thing I've seen.  So long as PD's continue to draw a line between themselves, and the citizens that they are sworn to protect...the LE community will continue to be in the situation that they are in.


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## fox1371 (Jan 8, 2016)

@Centermass 

Let me as you this...are you an LEO?  If so, have you seen criminal activity take place at your department?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 8, 2016)

Using the same logic, there are a few cases of Marines commiting war crimes, several cases of cruelty and a major male on male sexual assault issue at al Assad air base 08-09. Would that mean that the USMC is all fucked up, that these were not just bad apples and the institution of the USMC breeds these types of warriors?

Or could it be that 90% of the Marines are exceptional warriors with a strong code of integrity, and this other 10% are the shit bags that slipped through the cracks?

Cop's eat their own, and generally you don't hear about it, unless its involving a major crime. But thousands of cops are fired every year for being the 10% shit bag group.


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## fox1371 (Jan 8, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Using the same logic, there are a few cases of Marines commiting war crimes, several cases of cruelty and a major male on male sexual assault issue at al Assad air base 08-09. Would that mean that the USMC is all fucked up, that these were not just bad apples and the institution of the USMC breeds these types of warriors?
> 
> Or could it be that 90% of the Marines are exceptional warriors with a strong code of integrity, and this other 10% are the shit bags that slipped through the cracks?
> 
> Cop's eat their own, and generally you don't hear about it, unless its involving a major crime. But thousands of cops are fired every year for being the 10% shit bag group.


Those that have committed war crimes, sex rings, etc etc...have all been prosecuted to the full extent of the UCMJ.  Can you say the same for LEOs?  Or would you agree that there is a pattern of a separate standard?  How many times have you seen a SWAT team serve a no-knock warrant on an LEO?  How many times have you seen body cam footage that shows an LEO getting drawn down on and then thrown to the ground by his fellow LEOs for shooting an unarmed citizen?  

So long as an LEO/Department carries legal authority over a US Citizen, they will bare the burden of being held to a much higher standard in regards to their own conduct.  If individuals are not meeting that standard, then they need to be held FULLY accountable.  Is that happening?  Maybe/maybe not.  The truth lies in the public's perspective.  So far, I see things getting swept under the rug, or the disciplinary action not meeting the same standards that an ordinary citizen would receive.  

I blame the institution.  Laws are passed that are aimed at revenue protection or revenue generation vs public safety.  Many officer's on the street lack critical thinking skills and are ill-trained to handle situations they may come into contact with.  There's not enough focus on the deescalation of force.  It's all been going on for such a long time that it's become the norm.  And now it's becoming a dick measuring contest between the civilian populace and the police force.  If for a second an LEO thinks that they don't need the full support of their community, and isn't will to take the necessary steps to gain that trust and confidence, then they need to quit.


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## SpitfireV (Jan 8, 2016)

I think making a comparison to a single organisation vs hundreds (if not thousands) of separately run is a bit disingenuous.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 8, 2016)

@fox1371, I'm not saying your opinion is groundless by any means. However, I think it is a bit of a broad stroke, and more so insulting to the thousands of high caliber and professional LEO's who serve their community with distinction. There are many cases where cops are prosecuted to the full extent of the law. I know the Chief here in San Antonio has personally slapped the cuffs on a few bad officers.

@SpitfireV, as in all branches of the military, there are hundreds of units, that operate independently in the same manner as local LEA's do. Hints the difference in standards and policy between combat arms, SOF, support, service and support, etc.


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## Kraut783 (Jan 8, 2016)

fox1371 said:


> @Centermass
> 
> Let me as you this...are you an LEO?  If so, have you seen criminal activity take place at your department?



fox,  I understand your thoughts, I agree with a lot of it.....I have been a LEO for 26+ years, last five on a fed task force.  My department is very good at firing and arresting officers who step over the line. I believe corruption/criminal activity was a lot more prevalent in the past.....I feel we have come a long way....but, as with any organization, we have bad apples and we have a long way to go. I do feel that the media, social media are throwing it in the spotlight more and more......as it should be, but the reporting is so lopsided.  Hundreds of thousands of calls are responded to or initiated everyday by many departments of various sizes and levels of training.....all we hear about are the ones that go wrong or the bad apple.


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## fox1371 (Jan 9, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> ...I do feel that the media, social media are throwing it in the spotlight more and more......as it should be, but the reporting is so lopsided.  Hundreds of thousands of calls are responded to or initiated everyday by many departments of various sizes and levels of training.....all we hear about are the ones that go wrong or the bad apple.


Unfortunately the bad incidents will always overshadow the good.  It's like that in any industry.  Like they say,"You can build a thousand bridges, but if you suck one cock, they don't call you a bridge builder but a cocksucker."


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## Kraut783 (Jan 9, 2016)

Very true, unfortunately.


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## ZmanTX (Jan 9, 2016)

@fox1371
Are you a LEO or have you ever been on any ride alongs? Honest question.

Tarantino is an ignorant ass hole. Seriously to generalize cops as all bad is just stupid...

ZM


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## Grunt (Jan 9, 2016)

He said "all" and he meant "all." Like I said...he's a crumb! He's simply another talking head that I can truly care less about his opinion on law enforcement.


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## fox1371 (Jan 10, 2016)

Agoge said:


> He said "all" and he meant "all." Like I said...he's a crumb! He's simply another talking head that I can truly care less about his opinion on law enforcement.


He said "all" and meant the "all" in reference to the officers involved in the Laquan McDonald shooting...



ZmanTX said:


> @fox1371
> Are you a LEO or have you ever been on any ride alongs? Honest question.
> 
> Tarantino is an ignorant ass hole. Seriously to generalize cops as all bad is just stupid...
> ...


Zman...no I'm not a cop.  Yes I've been on multiple ride alongs, as I have a lot of family that are LEO's.  I work with retired cops right now...and one of them is former Chicago PD, who fulling acknowledges the mass corruption.  

Again guys, he didn't generalize ALL cops as bad apples.  You guys need to read the story from multiple sources...comprehend what he's actually saying, and then form your opinions.


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## Centermass (Jan 11, 2016)

fox1371 said:


> He said "all" and meant the "all" in reference to the officers involved in the Laquan McDonald shooting...



Really? Nice try, but that right there falls flat. What was the venue he attached himself to when he decided to make his proclamation? Tarantino isn't exactly dumb, quite the contrary. He pandered to the audience who were there in front of him. The same who continuously spout "Pigs in a blanket, fry like bacon."

Not to mention where he was at when this took place - NYC, directly after an NYPD officer was ambushed and shot dead just 2 days prior.



fox1371 said:


> Zman...no I'm not a cop.  Yes I've been on multiple ride alongs, as I have a lot of family that are LEO's.  I work with retired cops right now...and one of them is former Chicago PD, who fulling acknowledges the mass corruption.



Mass corruption? Maybe in Chicago. But more like "Some corrupt officers." 

There has been a rapid rise amongst female teachers who have sexually engaged themselves with minors. 

If you apply the same broad brush you have with your previous analogies, I guess that now makes all female teachers suspect, whomever and wherever they may be.  



fox1371 said:


> Again guys, he didn't generalize ALL cops as bad apples.  You guys need to read the story from multiple sources...comprehend what he's actually saying, and then form your opinions.



I did exactly that and I have. 



fox1371 said:


> Let me as you this...are you an LEO? If so, have you seen criminal activity take place at your department?



I was for 8 years and yes, I have. I've been a forum member here for the last 10 years. If you had done a little research, you would have found examples if corruption was present, I called on the individual in question, to be held accountable and if found guilty, to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. When you cross that line that separates you from what you have been sworn to protect the public from, take heart in knowing I despise them as much as anyone else. 

I know of many examples of officers who are now doing time for crossing that line. 

You have a problem with an officer? Get their supervisor, file a formal complaint with their department and escalate it if needed, to the DA and / or that agencies civil review board. File a civil suit as well. You do not however, have the right to make that determination, by breaking the law out there on the street. There are way to redress any issues of wrongdoing. Taking matters into your own hands and doing it the wrong way, is not one of them.  

Allow me to school you on a few things when it comes to this profession and the people in it. 

How you go about your job is a balance of many factors of doing your duty as a public servant, and the degree of how you approach it and do it. Background, upbringing, personality, ability to deal with life with its infinite scenarios, mindset, all play into this, day in and day out.

There is a truism I learned a long time ago, getting into LE at a latter age. That is, they can train you all day, week after week, month after month, how to be a cop. The one thing (And one of the most important in my book and I'm sure, others here) they DON'T TEACH YOU is how to deal with the public in general and all its diversities. And is every single individual cut from the same piece of cloth when it comes to proper and positive morals, values and beliefs regarding background and upbringing? 

No. Same thing as those in the military, public and private sectors and in any and all places in the world and life Fox. 

The newer rook, coming straight from the gate, is more than likely going to have the mentality of "I now have a badge, gun and blue lights. I'm going to save the world and all of humanity whenever I'm on duty."
"I plan on pulling over and ticketing all those drivers I've seen over the years violating motor vehicle laws." "I'm in charge and don't you dare question my authority."

Now, are all those still wet behind the ears going to possess that type of mindset? Of course not and if they do, hopefully, the FTO assigned to them, will catch it early on and set them straight. Or, if it surfaces later on, after they've been cut loose from riding double after their probie period is up, a supervisor or watch commander will catch wind of it through community complaints, or others around them, that are consistent and credible. Either they'll get a come to Jesus talk, told to straighten up and fly right, re seated with a another veteran officer or cut loose from that respective agency as the last thing the Chief wants, other officers, (Or the community for that matter) is a liability.

Most older veterans, who have gone through those doors many times, have had their fix of adrenaline and learn to come to terms with it. Some don't and never will. You have the officer, who goes out of their way, to turn up stones and dig, looking for something to get into, or wants to be first to everything Code 3 that comes across the Motorola. Then, you have those, who do just enough to get by and constantly try to fly under the radar. You have the old timers, ticket punchers and finger drillers. Those who don't care, never should have beens along with those just counting their days to a pension and would rather be somewhere else, doing something else. It shows in their mindsets, physical appearance and lack of professionalism, in all they do and refuse to do. Those are the ones you don't want to be anywhere around and wish didn't exist, but unfortunately they do. Take heart in knowing that not only the public hates them, we probably do (Or did) as well. The bottom line is it's a dance. And with all the infinite variables that can be thrown at someone on any given day, you could have one shift, when it's all you can do on graveyard, to keep your eyes open and yourself alert enough to get through it one minute, and all of a sudden, a call comes in and it's 0 to a hundred miles an hour in the blink of an eye. For some, that's the appeal. One minute, you could be saving a life. The next, trying to save your own or someone else. For others, it's either a fear or the apathetic attitude of "Someone else can handle that call, I'm Signal 8 and my food comes first."

And now, we come to this - you have those, who will try and take advantage of their position, for personal and ill gotten gains, whether to shield themselves from corruption charges, a bad shoot or lining their pockets with dirty money. And the ones who do take advantage of their position need to be held accountable and thrown in the same cells they put others in, you have no argument from me there. And I say here and again - to you and everyone else in the world that knows everything there is to know about law enforcement and the people in it - *THIS IS THE EXCEPTION AND NOT THE FUCKING RULE. *

You have the veterans, who know their job, everyday, first and foremost, is to get home safe. *AND YES, THAT IS YOUR JOB FOX, WHETHER YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT OR NOT.* They have no problem going into harms way to serve and protect. They do their duty, uphold the laws, but they also know what "Officer discretion is" when to use it and when not to. They will take and accept mundane and monotonous details or hi risk situations if need be. They will be there for those on their left and right, whenever a call goes out that another officer needs assistance. The ones you want heading in your direction when the shit is or has hit the fan. They know they're not going to save the world any longer or change a high crime area into a model subdivision, they learn to take one call at a time and deal with it. They pass on what they learn to newer ranks when they can.  They would rather turn a bad situation into a positive with a level head, rather than yell and scream and escalate one. They keep themselves in check, keep up with all statutorial changes, remain proficient with the weapons assigned and stay in shape. Those are the ones with the proper mindset that no matter what assignment they are given, or what they may face, that they will do their jobs to the utmost of their abilities, in order to handle the next call and go home at the end of their shift. That is the majority, despite what the headlines read or what the media blasts across cable tv.

The problem with society today and the divide between LE has been mainly propagated by an administration who likes to cherry pick certain situations, rush to judgment and draw conclusions based on hearsay, lies and unfactual statements. Nothing like someone out there, who tries to do their job, to the best of their abilities and gets thrown under the bus, when something controversial occurs, by everyone from the president right on down to their own mayor / government, before a full investigation has yet to even have commenced, and they've already been pronounced guilty as charged, before ever having a day in a court of law, let alone the completion, of a full and thorough investigation.

It's this mentality that has spread across our nation to the minds of many (NOTICE I DID NOT SAY OR USE THE WORD "ALL") that think they do not have to comply with an officer or choose to shoot them, either in ambush, or during a confrontation, and not even think twice about it. And it's getting worse, not better. Groups like BLM and your buddy tarantino don't help anything when they spout their hate.

Look up some friends of mine - Martin Lawing, Mark Renninger, And Ed Lowry to name a few. Yeah, bad apples.........

You want to line up with Tarantino and spin his comments? That's your choice.

Want to go see his movies? Same applies.

But, when he makes a comment like he did, painting ALL OFFICERS as bad apples, expect me to take issue with it.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jan 11, 2016)

What I have taken away from filmdom's Tarantino is, "Hey look at me", " see how I can articulate so that I look like a super intelect. Aren't you proud of me for standing up in public, and taking a stand against the police". I see this as little more than the chance to use this public forum to promote himself, while degrading people he knows nothing about. How do you think Mr. Tarantino would conduct himself during a traffic stop for........oh let's say speed in excess? Or reckless driving, or DUI? No matter how the responding officer handled Mr. T, I expect it will be ugly, and another chance for even more public exposure. I don't have any positive feelings for Mr. T as a person, or his approach the the subeject of the LEO's ; and yet these same LEO's who will defend his rights to say and do what he does. Mr. T, IMMHO, could use some lessons on what life is really like on the streets for all of our LEOs.  I do not think he whold take the time, or give a shit for what our LEOs do day in, and day out, 24/7. There is way too much press coverage of actors, acting as experts in things they know nothing about, but are happy for the exposure topics like this bring. Actors should stick to acting when they are working, and then STFU; but that's just me.

LEOs are over tasked,  under paid, and poorly supported by segments of our population who need their help the most. It has come to the ugly point of video recording police activity, for the sole reason of making the LEOs look bad.

My $.02. Rant over, and back to my wee cave here in The Valley.


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## fox1371 (Jan 11, 2016)

It appears that I may have struck a nerve...



Centermass said:


> Really? Nice try, but that right there falls flat. What was the venue he attached himself to when he decided to make his proclamation? Tarantino isn't exactly dumb, quite the contrary. He pandered to the audience who were there in front of him. The same who continuously spout "Pigs in a blanket, fry like bacon."
> Not to mention where he was at when this took place - NYC, directly after an NYPD officer was ambushed and shot dead just 2 days prior.


I guess we will agree to disagree on this part.  




Centermass said:


> Mass corruption? Maybe in Chicago. But more like "Some corrupt officers."
> There has been a rapid rise amongst female teachers who have sexually engaged themselves with minors.
> If you apply the same broad brush you have with your previous analogies, I guess that now makes all female teachers suspect, whomever and wherever they may be.


I guess you didn't read my previous post when I stated that I wasn't making a blanket statement directed at all LEOs.  




Centermass said:


> I was for 8 years and yes, I have. I've been a forum member here for the last 10 years. If you had done a little research, you would have found examples if corruption was present, I called on the individual in question, to be held accountable and if found guilty, to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. When you cross that line that separates you from what you have been sworn to protect the public from, take heart in knowing I despise them as much as anyone else.
> I know of many examples of officers who are now doing time for crossing that line.


 
For this I will commend you.  I don't see this being the case for everyone, and I consider this type of integrity to be a rarity.  Not just in the LEO profession, but in all.  



Centermass said:


> You have a problem with an officer? Get their supervisor, file a formal complaint with their department and escalate it if needed, to the DA and / or that agencies civil review board. File a civil suit as well. You do not however, have the right to make that determination, by breaking the law out there on the street. There are way to redress any issues of wrongdoing. Taking matters into your own hands and doing it the wrong way, is not one of them.


For most cases, yes, I would absolutely agree with this.  What is your position on witnessing the unlawful use of deadly force?  If a LEO executes an unarmed civilian, let's say in front of a CHL holder, do you feel that if that civilian is fearing for his life...he/she has the right to defend themselves against the officer...up to the use of lethal force if necessary?  I think we've seen a fair share of examples where reporting through the proper channels has proven to be ineffective.  While I don't think that means people should be taking matters into their own hands...I believe people have the RIGHT to take things into their own hands.  This isn't a country where the Police were meant to rule with an iron fist, and where their word and actions are above reproach.  If you think that this is what this country should be, perhaps you need to rethink the oaths that you took.  



Centermass said:


> Allow me to school you on a few things when it comes to this profession and the people in it.


 I'll go ahead and pull out my notebook and pencil...  



Centermass said:


> How you go about your job is a balance of many factors......your post ...





Centermass said:


> it's either a fear or the apathetic attitude of "Someone else can handle that call, I'm Signal 8 and my food comes first."


Excuses are like ass holes...If you can't handle what the job requires, or you can identify those that can't handle what the job requires...it's simple to quit/report etc.  The problem is that the system doesn't support individuals to be peered out.  So the slobs, crooks, shitbags...will work without impunity for as long as they can get away with it.  



Centermass said:


> And now, we come to this - you have those, who will try and take advantage of their position, for personal and ill gotten gains, whether to shield themselves from corruption charges, a bad shoot or lining their pockets with dirty money. And the ones who do take advantage of their position need to be held accountable and thrown in the same cells they put others in, you have no argument from me there. And I say here and again - to you and everyone else in the world that knows everything there is to know about law enforcement and the people in it - *THIS IS THE EXCEPTION AND NOT THE FUCKING RULE. *


I hope so.  But none of us can see inside of every single department...including you.  So your perception and mine really carry no weight in this argument.  However, the flashlight is currently getting shined all over LE organizations around the U.S...and what is being found isn't positive.  Maybe it is the exception, and I sure hope that it is...it doesn't negate the rest.  



Centermass said:


> You have the veterans, who know their job, everyday, first and foremost, is to get home safe. *AND YES, THAT IS YOUR JOB FOX, WHETHER YOU ACKNOWLEDGE THAT OR NOT.* They have no problem going into harms way to serve and protect. They do their duty, uphold the laws, but they also know what "Officer discretion is" when to use it and when not to. They will take and accept mundane and monotonous details or hi risk situations if need be. They will be there for those on their left and right, whenever a call goes out that another officer needs assistance. The ones you want heading in your direction when the shit is or has hit the fan. They know they're not going to save the world any longer or change a high crime area into a model subdivision, they learn to take one call at a time and deal with it. They pass on what they learn to newer ranks when they can.  They would rather turn a bad situation into a positive with a level head, rather than yell and scream and escalate one. They keep themselves in check, keep up with all statutorial changes, remain proficient with the weapons assigned and stay in shape. Those are the ones with the proper mindset that no matter what assignment they are given, or what they may face, that they will do their jobs to the utmost of their abilities, in order to handle the next call and go home at the end of their shift. That is the majority, despite what the headlines read or what the media blasts across cable tv.


If you use "Officer discretion," to violate a citizen's rights in the name of going home at night...you have no Honor.  Period.  Did I want to survive every mission/patrol?  Absolutely.  But don't think for a second that I wasn't fully prepared to die for the right cause.  That is the meaning of sacrifice...and I would expect that you're fully cognizant of that truth.   



Centermass said:


> The problem with society today and the divide between LE has been mainly propagated by an administration who likes to cherry pick certain situations, rush to judgment and draw conclusions based on hearsay, lies and unfactual statements. Nothing like someone out there, who tries to do their job, to the best of their abilities and gets thrown under the bus, when something controversial occurs, by everyone from the president right on down to their own mayor / government, before a full investigation has yet to even have commenced, and they've already been pronounced guilty as charged, before ever having a day in a court of law, let alone the completion, of a full and thorough investigation.


I agree to an extent.  The media has absolutely had a negative impact when it comes to the separation of LE and the general population.  BUT, various LE Agencies have definitely screwed the pooch more times than the media has.  With everything going on...department's dirty laundry is getting aired out more than it usually would.  



Centermass said:


> It's this mentality that has spread across our nation to the minds of many (NOTICE I DID NOT SAY OR USE THE WORD "ALL") that think they do not have to comply with an officer or choose to shoot them, either in ambush, or during a confrontation, and not even think twice about it. And it's getting worse, not better. Groups like BLM and your buddy tarantino don't help anything when they spout their hate.


Interesting that you've brought up false media information etc...as attacks on Officers are one of them.  There's currently an outcry about cops being targeted for "assassination."  Don't get me wrong...I'm very much against any harm coming to our LEOs.  However the statistics do not support the claim.  Officer deaths via shooting are actually down in numbers.  



Centermass said:


> Look up some friends of mine - Martin Lawing, Mark Renninger, And Ed Lowry to name a few. Yeah, bad apples.........


Dude...we've all got dead friends.  You can try and use them as martyrs if you'd like, but you'll get no sympathy from me.  No disrespect towards those men at all, and I think you're getting the impression that I am anti-cop.  I'm not. 

Like I said, I'm not anti-cop.  I think we can agree, or I'd hope we can, that the rise of power for LE Agencies has steadily increased Post 9/11.  The abuse of power is now being called into question by the American people.  Like it or not, it's the reality of things.


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## Centermass (Jan 12, 2016)

fox1371 said:


> I guess you didn't read my previous post when I stated that I wasn't making a blanket statement directed at all LEOs.



Yeah, I did.



fox1371 said:


> There are countless examples of LEO's covering up for other LEO's.





fox1371 said:


> This is not a blanket statement towards all LEO's.



So, which is it? You can't say in one breath "There are countless examples of LEO's covering up for other LEO's" and than, say in another "This is not a blanket statement towards all LEO's."



fox1371 said:


> What is your position on witnessing the unlawful use of deadly force?  If a LEO executes an unarmed civilian, let's say in front of a CHL holder, do you feel that if that civilian is fearing for his life...he/she has the right to defend themselves against the officer...up to the use of lethal force if necessary?



That's a pretty far stretch, but I'll address it. "It depends." Does that person have all the facts in order to make the determination that an officer was "Executing an unarmed civilian?" Did the officer present himself as a direct threat for no reason to you, with the CCW permit and armed with your weapon? Were you in reasonable fear for your own life and had no other choice? 



fox1371 said:


> I think we've seen a fair share of examples where reporting through the proper channels has proven to be ineffective.  While I don't think that means people should be taking matters into their own hands...I believe people have the RIGHT to take things into their own hands.  This isn't a country where the Police were meant to rule with an iron fist, and where their word and actions are above reproach.  If you think that this is what this country should be, perhaps you need to rethink the oaths that you took.



Do you understand the term "Good order and discipline?" If there were No law enforcement presence anywhere, what do you honestly would think this country or any country for matter would look like? I've said it before and I'll say it again. The streets are not a court of law. Just because YOU may think you are being treated unfairly, does not give you the right to resist and not comply. It's not a so called "Iron Fist" as you would call it and no one I knew of that was on shift with me or anyone else I knew for that matter, even today thinks they have one. And I have more friends in more departments in more states than I can count. 



fox1371 said:


> Excuses are like ass holes...If you can't handle what the job requires, or you can identify those that can't handle what the job requires...it's simple to quit/report etc.  The problem is that the system doesn't support individuals to be peered out.  So the slobs, crooks, shitbags...will work without impunity for as long as they can get away with it.



Wrong. You think a city or a town council wants a known liability on their payroll? The chief, deputy chiefs, watch commanders, supervisors, along with senior patrol officers doesn't and neither does anyone else for that matter. Some slide under the radar, but for the most part, I've seen many get their walking papers for even mundane nonsense, if it's been a reoccurring issue. Just because you don't know about it, or read about it, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. It does happen and more frequently than you realize.

You know what happens to an officer if he's up on the stand and either giving testimony or cross examined and it's been discovered he's perjured himself and lied under oath? He's done. For good. Know why? Every single trial lawyer across the country will know who you are from that point on. You lie about one thing, you'll lie about something else. You can't be trusted to tell the truth or provide credible testimony. No department will ever hire you again either. You've just tainted yourself for the rest of your life.

For some reason, you would be led to believe that officers can go unchecked and do stupid stuff and not be held accountable. The MSM and others would have you believe that, but that simply just isn't true.



fox1371 said:


> If you use *"Officer discretion," *to violate a citizen's rights *in the name of going home at night*...you have no Honor.  Period.  Did I want to survive every mission/patrol?  Absolutely.  But don't think for a second that I wasn't fully prepared to die for the right cause.  That is the meaning of sacrifice...and I would expect that you're fully cognizant of that truth.



Let me clarify a few things for you. First off, the meaning behind "Going home every night at the end of your shift.

Officers are taught and train in the "Escalation of Force" and "Use Of Force Continuum." Anytime any kind of force is used, whether it be O/C, Taser, Baton, Strong Hand etc, you have to fill out (At least most, if not all departments) a "Use Of Force" form and explain/articulate "Why."

Officers are also trained in the use of Deadly Force as well, learn it early on and continue to.

We are also trained in what's known as "Weapons Retention." The last thing an officer needs is to have their own service weapon used against them. And yes, many a LE Officer has died at the hands of their own gun. You go after my weapon and all bets are off. Period.

And as for going home each night, I'll give you a personal example.

One night when I was on patrol, a drop yard sent a silent alarm signal to the Central Station and I was dispatched on it as I was closest and other units were tied up with a traffic accident. I was familiar with this location as Hi Value items were being stolen from the containers and no one as of yet had been caught. (This later turned out to be an inside job)

I made my approach, blacked out without any backup, and asked if the Central Station had received any more alarm trips. I was told they were still receiving motion in the yard. I got out of my unit and made entry into the yard. I stopped for a few minutes in the dark, looking and listening. I then heard metal to metal contact, looked in that direction and saw a vague outline in the shadows of someone that appeared to be moving. I made a wide flanking approach to the rear of one row of the containers, and observed a large male climbing down from the back of one several containers away. I made contact with my dispatch, notified them what I had, re -requested backup and told them to "Step it up."

I stayed where I was at and he then began to move in my direction. Eventually, he was getting close enough where I had no choice at that point and lit him up with my maglite, announced who I was, not to make any sudden moves, and to keep his hands where I could see him. As I could now see him better, I knew who this individual was and his background. He was about 6' 8" and weighed in excess of 300 lbs. Now, I'm no small guy. I'm 6' 1" At the time, I weighed 220, and was ripped like a brick shit house. Even with that, I knew I had my hands full. He had a long RAP sheet, a history of resisting officers, had been O/C'd in the past and tasered, with little to no effect. It took several officers to take him down the last time he was arrested. This arrest would have made him a 3 time loser (Habitual felon) = a long sentence. He continued to walk towards me. I then drew down on him and told him "Stop now or I'll drop you right where you stand." "As big as you are, there's no jury in the world that will convict me based on your size and mine." I think he knew by the sound of my voice that I mean't business. I held him at gunpoint until I finally got my backup.

Moral? The only recourse I knew I had with this man was deadly force. If he had gotten my weapon, I have no doubt he would have used it against me. And chances are I would have been in the fight for my life. *I ain't scared of dying. What I am scared of is dying for no good reason when I would have had another choice within the law.  *

And as an officer, we don't use warning shots like you see in the movies. We are also taught when using deadly force, you don't shoot to wound, you shoot to stop the threat until they are no longer a threat.

It doesn't mean I wasn't willing to go into harm's way and take a round in the course of protecting someone. It also doesn't mean I'm going to "Violate a citizen's rights" in order to do so either. However, if you're looking or expecting perfection each and every time an officer across this country goes out on a call, maybe in a perfect world.

Cops are human. They will make mistakes, and sometimes they are big mistakes. I was taught early on that EVERYTHING YOU DO CAN BE A LIABILITY.

Now, let me address the other highlighted term.

Evidently, you don't understand the definition or meaning of the term "Officer discretion." Say you're flying down the Interstate, doing 73 in a 65 mph zone. I pull you over, check your tags, license, MVR, insurance and for any wants or warrants and everything comes back ship shape. In this instance, you've been a license holder for 25 years, never had a ticket, let alone any infractions or warnings. You were polite when I approached, had everything I asked for, didn't do or say anything dumb and had nothing illegal in plain view. Same when I came back. At this point, 9 times out of 10, I'd more than likely let you off with either a verbal or a written warning and you'd be on your way.

Now, let's change the dynamics a bit. On this stop, you don't have your seat belt fastened, and then, you begin to verbally cuss me out because it's "My fault" you were speeding, "I pay your salary with my taxes" etc etc. Again, when I run 27's, 28's and 29's, everything comes back the same as the first scenario. See where I'm going with this?

Same applies if I'm dispatched to a domestic call, and I come upon you exiting the house and you match the description of one of the persons present in the dwelling. I then do a stop and talk. I am going to question you, but first, for my own safety, I pat you down for any weapons. Based on my training, I feel a bag in your right pocket and ask you about it. You hesitate at first and ask you again what's in your pocket. You then fess up and tell me you have some dope on you and it's in your pocket.

I then place you in handcuffs and "Detain" you. Detaining someone doesn't mean you're under arrest or going to jail, it simply means for my safety and yours, until I'm done conducting my FI, you will be restrained. So, why are you in cuffs? Say there's someone inside, that has been assaulted no one knows about yet and you committed the crime. Well, at least I don't have to worry about you rabbitting at a full sprint away from me or having your hands free to break away from me or assault me.

However, in this case, you're not part of the problem, you just happen to be a 3rd party when all this happened. That bag you had on you earlier has less than a half oz. Based on your demeanor, I can either haul you off to jail or just let you go with a misdemeanor citation for possession, the cuffs come off and you're free to go.

The term "Officer Discretion" has absolutely nothing to do with corruption.



fox1371 said:


> I agree to an extent.  The media has absolutely had a negative impact when it comes to the separation of LE and the general population.  BUT, various LE Agencies have definitely screwed the pooch more times than the media has.  With everything going on...department's dirty laundry is getting aired out more than it usually would.





fox1371 said:


> Interesting that you've brought up false media information etc...as attacks on Officers are one of them.  There's currently an outcry about cops being targeted for "assassination."  Don't get me wrong...I'm very much against any harm coming to our LEOs.  However the statistics do not support the claim.  Officer deaths via shooting are actually down in numbers.




And that's exactly what you see. You think a news station is going to headline everything an officer does in a positive light, those little things that no one else sees or is aware of or are they going to go full bore with "Officers assault citizen - citizen says he did nothing wrong" headline.

We had one local station who got a hold of MVR footage of a DWI stop in which the suspect was combative, did not comply, was O'C'd, still didn't comply, was tasered not once, but twice, with no effect and wound up fighting with 3 officers and eventually 5. Well, guess what? The station only showed this stellar individual fighting with the 5 officers and left out the first 5 minutes of the primary officer repeatedly asking to see the individual's drivers license. It also didn't show when this individual decided he was going to resist and grab the primary officer.

It took the FOP to get the rest of the tape released and shown to the public. (The "Rest of the story" as Paul Harvey would say)

Turns out, he had a revoked license (Lifetime suspension) a stolen .38 in the cab of his truck, thought he was a sovereign citizen and didn't have to comply with any of the officers commands. He also blew a .27.

And then, you have people in prominent positions propagating the same thing that is absolutely mind boggling.

Link 

Along with hollywood, pro sports and congress doing the fucking "Hands up, don't shoot" BS and continually perpetuating it...... And to this day, you would think Brown was the hero and Officer Wilson was the criminal. Remember this - just because someone says it's so, doesn't mean it's so, unless and until it is backed up with facts and corroborated as such.



fox1371 said:


> Dude...we've all got dead friends.  You can try and use them as martyrs if you'd like, but you'll get no sympathy from me.  No disrespect towards those men at all, and I think you're getting the impression that I am anti-cop.  I'm not.



Martyrs? Really?

Trooper Ed Lowry - My kids and his played baseball together. We were also neighbors and he was well liked and respected within the community. Him and a deputy were both gunned down with an AK after stopping a vehicle that had been involved in a robbery in another state - too soon to know that piece of information when the vehicle was stopped initially. The Golphin brothers both laughed about it during their trial and showed absolutely no remorse for doing so.

Mark Renninger - A veteran of 2nd Ranger Bn. Gunned down and killed in ambush, along with 3 other officers in Seattle while they were in a coffee shop together. His wife was a dispatcher for his department and initially took the call until she broke down once she learned one of them was her husband.

Martin Lawing - Veteran of 3rd Ranger Bn, who was a member of a SWAT Tm, serving a warrant, who tossed a bag phone in order to communicate with a deranged woman in her 70's, who then shot and paralyzed a good man for life.

It's known as "Honoring those no longer with us, who died in the line of duty" or gave all in their performance of it.

Maybe you've heard of it somewhere during the course of your service in the military..........geezus H. Christ.



fox1371 said:


> Like I said, I'm not anti-cop.  I think we can agree, or I'd hope we can, that the rise of power for LE Agencies has steadily increased Post 9/11.  The abuse of power is now being called into question by the American people.  Like it or not, it's the reality of things.



Well, it really puzzles me when you made the statement that you've done many ride alongs, many of your family members are or were in LE and you know many that are as well, yet, you keep using the same mantra that would lead anyone to believe that those in blue are some kind of jack booted thugs and are the majority instead of the exception.


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