# .Aviator to MARSOC



## slopmaster (Dec 27, 2018)

I'm currently getting a Computer Science degree from a school that's 1 tier below an Ivy League and am looking to start USMC PLC for 6 weeks this summer on an aviation contract (just awaiting some medical clearances). Now, I know this question is a long ways down the road, however, how realistic is it to be able to go to A&S after serving out my 6-8 years as an Aviator? I know the ideal MOS to have pre-MARSOC selection is Infantry but I really do want to fly jets, at least at first. I also understand that the military puts a lot of money into training their pilots so will I be looked down upon for attempting to transition out of the flight community?


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## Gunz (Dec 27, 2018)

Check boxes A, B, C, D, E, F, and G before you start speculating about what happens when you get to the end of the alphabet. Having said that, anything is possible, including failure at any point along your 8-year plan. You're not even a Marine yet. Earn the title. Go from there.


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## NorCal88 (Dec 27, 2018)

Your window for MARSOC will have passed by the time you pay back your flight time.My last look at the 0370 criteria is that you complete ITC with no more than 1.5 years Time in Grade as an O-3.
-TBS+Flight School+Time at the training squadron all before you even start your first fleet tour.  You would most likely be a Captain by then, however not career designated (540 days of observed time in your MOS aka 75XX) before you could even consider a switch of any type.
As Ocoka stated before, focus on getting through OCS, then TBS, then allllllllllllllllllll the flight school, then your training unit. You can get rolled back/dropped for all of those if you aren’t completely focused.

Good luck in your future endeavors and I wish you luck with your journey it’s very rewarding.


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## Teufel (Dec 27, 2018)

Nothing is impossible but I wouldn’t count on it. Like @NorCal88 said, flight school and your payback will almost certainly close your window to lat-move over. You can always serve as a Forward Air Controller in MARSOC. @NorCal88, haven’t seen you around in awhile. You make it to ITC?


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## NorCal88 (Dec 27, 2018)

Teufel said:


> Nothing is impossible but I wouldn’t count on it. Like @NorCal88 said, flight school and your payback will almost certainly close your window to lat-move over. You can always serve as a Forward Air Controller in MARSOC. @NorCal88, haven’t seen you around in awhile. You make it to ITC?



I did not, plans didn’t workout for me, I career designated, got orders soon after to Okinawa, been out here since. Finished up with Arty for two years and now I’m at Comm Bn. To say I lost track of time is an understatement.

I’m back on here though, reading up on other potential options


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## Teufel (Dec 27, 2018)

NorCal88 said:


> I did not, plans didn’t workout for me, I career designated, got orders soon after to Okinawa, been out here since. Finished up with Arty for two years and now I’m at Comm Bn. To say I lost track of time is an understatement.
> 
> I’m back on here though, reading up on other potential options


Are you a log-o?


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## NorCal88 (Dec 27, 2018)

Teufel said:


> Are you a log-o?


Nope even worse, that sixth logistical function that is Supply 🤓


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## Hillclimb (Dec 27, 2018)

Some team guys(who went to SOTACC), end up applying for programs flying for ANG, or doing the WO Army programs surprisingly(with the endstate being 160th). The way I see it is going with option A, option B will still be waiting at the end. But going option B, will close out option A due to service/grade time constrictions


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## Teufel (Dec 27, 2018)

Hillclimb said:


> Some team guys(who went to SOTACC), end up applying for programs flying for ANG, or doing the WO Army programs surprisingly(with the endstate being 160th). The way I see it is going with option A, option B will still be waiting at the end. But going option B, will close out option A due to service/grade time constrictions


It is much easier to go from SOF to aviation than the other way around. I knew a C130 pilot who left the Marine Corps as a Captain to become an SF officer in the guard. That’s the only example I can think of. I’ve also known several officers who resigned their commissions to enlist in the Army 18x program.


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## slopmaster (Dec 28, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Check boxes A, B, C, D, E, F, and G before you start speculating about what happens when you get to the end of the alphabet. Having said that, anything is possible, including failure at any point along your 8-year plan. You're not even a Marine yet. Earn the title. Go from there.


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## slopmaster (Dec 28, 2018)

I agree.


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## slopmaster (Dec 28, 2018)

NorCal88 said:


> Your window for MARSOC will have passed by the time you pay back your flight time.My last look at the 0370 criteria is that you complete ITC with no more than 1.5 years Time in Grade as an O-3.
> -TBS+Flight School+Time at the training squadron all before you even start your first fleet tour.  You would most likely be a Captain by then, however not career designated (540 days of observed time in your MOS aka 75XX) before you could even consider a switch of any type.
> As Ocoka stated before, focus on getting through OCS, then TBS, then allllllllllllllllllll the flight school, then your training unit. You can get rolled back/dropped for all of those if you aren’t completely focused.
> 
> Good luck in your future endeavors and I wish you luck with your journey it’s very rewarding.


Thank you for the insight and yes I concur, this is all a long ways down the road. I don't expect any part of the journey to be easy by any means.


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## slopmaster (Dec 28, 2018)

Hillclimb said:


> Some team guys(who went to SOTACC), end up applying for programs flying for ANG, or doing the WO Army programs surprisingly(with the endstate being 160th). The way I see it is going with option A, option B will still be waiting at the end. But going option B, will close out option A due to service/grade time constrictions





Teufel said:


> It is much easier to go from SOF to aviation than the other way around. I knew a C130 pilot who left the Marine Corps as a Captain to become an SF officer in the guard. That’s the only example I can think of. I’ve also known several officers who resigned their commissions to enlist in the Army 18x program.


Definitely something to think about, thank you both for the information.


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## DA SWO (Dec 28, 2018)

slopmaster said:


> I'm currently getting a Computer Science degree from a school that's 1 tier below an Ivy League and am looking to start USMC PLC for 6 weeks this summer on an aviation contract (just awaiting some medical clearances). Now, I know this question is a long ways down the road, however, how realistic is it to be able to go to A&S after serving out my 6-8 years as an Aviator? I know the ideal MOS to have pre-MARSOC selection is Infantry but I really do want to fly jets, at least at first. I also understand that the military puts a lot of money into training their pilots so will I be looked down upon for attempting to transition out of the flight community?


Why did you choose Marine Aviation vice the Navy or Air Force?


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## slopmaster (Dec 28, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> Why did you choose Marine Aviation vice the Navy or Air Force?


A few reasons. I like the idea of having all of the skills of a Marine Officer while also being able to fly aircraft rather than just having aviation as my sole focus (as it would seem to be the case in the Navy or the Air Force). Another reason is that Air Force Aviation slots seem much harder to acquire than Navy or Marine ones. I also want to get this process started as soon as I can, with the Navy or the Air Force, I'd have to wait after graduation to attend OCS or OTS.


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## Gunz (Dec 29, 2018)

slopmaster said:


> A few reasons. I like the idea of having all of the skills of a Marine Officer while also being able to fly aircraft rather than just having aviation as my sole focus (as it would seem to be the case in the Navy or the Air Force). Another reason is that Air Force Aviation slots seem much harder to acquire than Navy or Marine ones. I also want to get this process started as soon as I can, with the Navy or the Air Force, I'd have to wait after graduation to attend OCS or OTS.



Good answer.


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## DA SWO (Dec 29, 2018)

slopmaster said:


> A few reasons. I like the idea of having all of the skills of a Marine Officer while also being able to fly aircraft rather than just having aviation as my sole focus (as it would seem to be the case in the Navy or the Air Force). Another reason is that Air Force Aviation slots seem much harder to acquire than Navy or Marine ones. I also want to get this process started as soon as I can, with the Navy or the Air Force, I'd have to wait after graduation to attend OCS or OTS.


Are you willing to be a Marine Officer who isn't an aviator?
Medical Waivers are revocable.


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## The Hate Ape (Dec 29, 2018)

Personally, I dont feel a Marine Officer gains many skills in the MARSOC community compared to being in the Infantry or possibly Reconnaissance.

Most young commanders gain the most benefit to their personal skills (warfighting, fieldcraft, etc) alongside an experienced SNCO at the troop level.

In MARSOC you will do 1-2 deployments at MOST, thats assuming you can land a team commander position for that long.

Stick with your aviation plan then request MARSOC during your FAC time if you can swing it.


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## slopmaster (Dec 29, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> Are you willing to be a Marine Officer who isn't an aviator?
> Medical Waivers are revocable.


Yes, I am.


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## slopmaster (Dec 29, 2018)

The Hate Ape said:


> Personally, I dont feel a Marine Officer gains many skills in the MARSOC community compared to being in the Infantry or possibly Reconnaissance.
> 
> Most young commanders gain the most benefit to their personal skills (warfighting, fieldcraft, etc) alongside an experienced SNCO at the troop level.
> 
> ...


thank you for the information


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## arch_angel (Dec 30, 2018)

The Hate Ape said:


> Personally, I dont feel a Marine Officer gains many skills in the MARSOC community compared to being in the Infantry or possibly Reconnaissance.
> 
> Most young commanders gain the most benefit to their personal skills (warfighting, fieldcraft, etc) alongside an experienced SNCO at the troop level.
> 
> ...



To be fair, a tour at a Recon BN will _typically_ yield the same results for a 1stLt/Capt. Either route you go (Recon or MARSOC), you are likely to get 1-2 deployments with a team/platoon before moving to a staff BIC. Obviously there are exceptions to every situation.

IRT career progression, Recon seems to be the smarter move simply because it allows you the versatility of taking Company command at either a Recon BN or a Victor unit later on. The pyramid on the SOC side is much skinnier toward the top and once you're a SOO I'm not sure how easy it is to switch back to big Marine Corps.

OP, if you want to fly jets, make that your focus. I'm sure your OSO may mention to you something about shipping as an air contract then dropping it at TBS... I wouldn't plan on that. We had a bunch of guys who were attempting that at TBS and out of roughly 15, 2 got approved. Another reason I say you should make jets your focus is because the amount of dedication required to pass flight school is no joke. Certainly not something you would want to be "half-in" about. 

Another thing you could look into as a FAC would be ANGLICO. Either way you go, you're serving your country.


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## The Hate Ape (Dec 31, 2018)

arch_angel said:


> To be fair, a tour at a Recon BN will _typically_ yield the same results for a 1stLt/Capt. Either route you go (Recon or MARSOC), you are likely to get 1-2 deployments with a team/platoon before moving to a staff BIC. Obviously there are exceptions to every situation.



No, I disagree.

MARSOC workups are no longer than seven months in a BEST case scenario whereas Reconnaissance is roughly two years. Time with your team/platoon is the greatest teacher for young officer “skills” and isnt necessarily quantified by a number of deployments.

That 1 or 2 deployments at Recon would be about 4 years of exercises, critical skills training, individual training and etc while learning the ins-and-outs of big Marine Corps. This contrasts greatly at MARSOC where you basically get really good at one particular deployment and use that to catapult yourself into an arena of credibility using limited experience to then navigate further into the ins-and-outs of SOCOM specifically.

So, avoid MARSOC and go there as a FAC only. We havent even scratched the surface about how SOOs never (I certainly dont think so at least) return to the Marine Corps.


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## RockHard13F (Jan 1, 2019)

I'd second the recommendation that you look into going to ANGLICO as a FAC.  Lots of captains and majors in ANGLICO who are pilots.  If you're goal is to do good things on the ground side and kill lots of bad guys (and subsequently go back to flying) ANGLICO just might be for you.


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## Hillclimb (Jan 1, 2019)

The Hate Ape said:


> No, I disagree.
> 
> MARSOC workups are no longer than seven months in a BEST case scenario whereas Reconnaissance is roughly two years. Time with your team/platoon is the greatest teacher for young officer “skills” and isnt necessarily quantified by a number of deployments.
> 
> That 1 or 2 deployments at Recon would be about 4 years of exercises, critical skills training, individual training and etc while learning the ins-and-outs of big Marine Corps. This contrasts greatly at MARSOC where you basically get really good at one particular deployment and use that to catapult yourself into an arena of credibility using limited experience to then navigate further into the ins-and-outs of SOCOM specifically.



Negative. I'd love to have a 7 month work up, but an 0370/0372 will have a 2 year deployment cycle. They wont drop an 0370 in 6 months prior to a deployment, they will have plenty of time with their team. They'll get the 6 month ITP > 12 month workup > 6 month deployment.


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## The Hate Ape (Jan 1, 2019)

Hillclimb said:


> Negative. I'd love to have a 7 month work up, but an 0370/0372 will have a 2 year deployment cycle. They wont drop an 0370 in 6 months prior to a deployment, they will have plenty of time with their team. They'll get the 6 month ITP > 12 month workup > 6 month deployment.



From the horses mouth I suppose. I totally skipped over IT phase. Good catch.


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## slopmaster (Jan 25, 2019)

For anybody who comes across this thread. Here's something to think about. 

http://www.forcerecon.com/Capt-Joshua-S-Meadows.htm
Capt. Meadows served as helicopter pilot for 5 years before transitioning to MARSOC (unrelated to flight).


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## Bunsickle (Jan 25, 2019)

I love how all these people think they can have their cake and eat it too in the Military. Just doesn’t work that way. You accomplish a mission, then choose another. Even if that takes multiple different assignments, “Go with the flow”.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 25, 2019)

Bunsickle said:


> I love how all these people think they can have their cake and eat it too in the Military. Just doesn’t work that way. You accomplish a mission, then choose another. Even if that takes multiple different assignments, “Go with the flow”.


@Bunsickle 

This is an Aviator/MARSOC related thread; since you are not a vetted member of either of those jobs, please refrain from making comments within threads out of your vetted expertise. 

To add....regarding your specific comment here.  In any thread dedicated to assisting other members, what you posted is unhelpful and out of place.


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## Teufel (Jan 25, 2019)

slopmaster said:


> For anybody who comes across this thread. Here's something to think about.
> 
> http://www.forcerecon.com/Capt-Joshua-S-Meadows.htm
> Capt. Meadows served as helicopter pilot for 5 years before transitioning to MARSOC (unrelated to flight).


He was a forward air controller attached to 1st MSOB.


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## slopmaster (Jan 25, 2019)

Teufel said:


> He was a forward air controller attached to 1st MSOB.



Ah thanks for the info, yeah that would make more sense given that he was an aviator first.


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## butler (Jan 30, 2019)

slopmaster said:


> I'm currently getting a Computer Science degree from a school that's 1 tier below an Ivy League



If I may make a recommendation: don't ever say that in the future to a roomful of Marine Officers. No one is impressed by "computer science" and "1 tier below an Ivy League", especially when there are Marines out there who don't have to caveat/qualify their accomplishments.

Good luck at PLC.


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## slopmaster (Feb 1, 2019)

butler said:


> If I may make a recommendation: don't ever say that in the future to a roomful of Marine Officers. No one is impressed by "computer science" and "1 tier below an Ivy League", especially when there are Marines out there who don't have to caveat/qualify their accomplishments.
> 
> Good luck at PLC.



I wouldn't expect anyone to be impressed by it. This is the information that my recruiter asked me to tell her and because I wish to fly aircraft, I laid out the fact that I have a STEM degree (I know about "pol sci" and fly but I think knowing CS has it's benefits in relation to aircraft). 

I thought that maybe STEM degrees are favored more once you're already in the Marine Corp, especially in a field like aviation.


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## butler (Feb 1, 2019)

slopmaster said:


> I wouldn't expect anyone to be impressed by it. This is the information that my recruiter asked me to tell her and because I wish to fly aircraft, I laid out the fact that I have a STEM degree (I know about "pol sci" and fly but I think knowing CS has it's benefits in relation to aircraft).
> 
> I thought that maybe STEM degrees are favored more once you're already in the Marine Corp, especially in a field like aviation.



To be clear, you should be proud of your academic achievements -- I (for one) know that I could not hack it in the hard sciences (e.g. computer science). Furthermore, your OSO is right: you are ultimately your own best advocate, and you should most definitely put your best foot forward before any sort of selection board. No need to be self-effacing nor humble.

That being said, my admonition is genuine, and is borne of personal experience: I knew a Marine lieutenant who -- in some sort of misguided dick-measuring contest -- bragged about his college major (computer science) at a fairly prestigious school (not an Ivy, but a top public university) to a roomful of other officers. He never heard the end of it, e.g. "XO wants a draft of the LOI? Give it to Lt 'Computer Science'; he's so much smarter than all of us."

Marines are merciless about this kind of stuff, and generally take umbrage at uppity, know-it-all spring-butts (I know that wasn't your intent; just trying to pass on what I've seen and experienced).


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## slopmaster (Feb 1, 2019)

butler said:


> To be clear, you should be proud of your academic achievements -- I (for one) know that I could not hack it in the hard sciences (e.g. computer science). Furthermore, your OSO is right: you are ultimately your own best advocate, and you should most definitely put your best foot forward before any sort of selection board. No need to be self-effacing nor humble.
> 
> That being said, my admonition is genuine, and is borne of personal experience: I knew a Marine lieutenant who -- in some sort of misguided dick-measuring contest -- bragged about his college major (computer science) at a fairly prestigious school (not an Ivy, but a top public university) to a roomful of other officers. He never heard the end of it, e.g. "XO wants a draft of the LOI? Give it to Lt 'Computer Science'; he's so much smarter than all of us."
> 
> Marines are merciless about this kind of stuff, and generally take umbrage at uppity, know-it-all spring-butts (I know that wasn't your intent; just trying to pass on what I've seen and experienced).



Yes, I agree. Thank you for the advice, I wouldn't brag to other Marines about anything really. The only time I would mention what I do/did in academics and other parts of my life is to people that run the selection board. Even when I talk people who aren't Marines, just people in my personal life or strangers, I never talk about myself unless I'm specifically asked. I only said a "tier below an Ivy League" because I want to stay anonymous and not reveal the actual school, and that is a fair placement for the school. 

I have nothing to brag about anyways; a CS degree is fairly ubiquitous nowadays.


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## jiujiteiro (Feb 16, 2019)

Thought I should add this in if I may, I had heard rumors of a Cobra pilot that went to A&S but I figured this was all just rumors. There was a Cobra pilot doing an AMA on reddit and so I figured I would just ask.
Question:
I was just lurking a post over at MOD EDIT  and someone who went to MARSOC A&S said they were there with a Cobra pilot? I didn’t know this was possible, I thought you had a certain amount of time you had to pay back as a pilot after winging? Any reason someone who had worked so hard/studied to be a pilot would go be an SOO? Is this something that is common now?
His Answer:
I knew this guy. Great dude. Wasn't in my squadron but from what I understand he was a solid pilot and squadron asset but just kept asking the question and I guess nobody said no, ha. He definitely would have needed something like wing CG level approval, but sounds like it worked out for him. My guess is that someone pretty senior thought that cross pollination in MARSOC was worth losing a pilot for. I haven't heard of anyone else doing it, and that was probably 3 years ago.

I would assume he is the only pilot to do this, but I guess that just goes to show anything is possible?


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## Teufel (Feb 16, 2019)

I’ve always said that nothing is impossible. I wouldn’t put money on it though. Also I don’t put a lot of faith in rumors and sea stories. It’s highly unlikely that the Marine Corps would let a pilot go to MARSOC with the current health of the aviator community.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 16, 2019)

jiujiteiro said:


> Thought I should add this in if I may, I had heard rumors of a Cobra pilot that went to A&S but I figured this was all just rumors. There was a Cobra pilot doing an AMA on reddit and so I figured I would just ask.
> Question:
> I was just lurking a post over at xxx and someone who went to MARSOC A&S said they were there with a Cobra pilot? I didn’t know this was possible, I thought you had a certain amount of time you had to pay back as a pilot after winging? Any reason someone who had worked so hard/studied to be a pilot would go be an SOO? Is this something that is common now?
> His Answer:
> ...


Unless you have experienced and working knowledge of a topic, please refrain from offering advice.
I deleted your posted link to Reddit.


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