# The Pacific



## Devildoc (Nov 28, 2017)

I don't know whether to post this here, general discussion, or books.

Just finished watching _The Pacific_.  It was excellent, much different than the book.  Although I have read books about the Marines' campaigns in WWII, the series put a visual on it, which for 'only entertainment,' was riveting enough.

Since the movie is comprised of Sledge's _With the Old Breed_ and Leckie's _Helmet for my Pillow_, I will pick those up to read between semesters.

Now, what makes me sad is, all of my family who were in WWII have long since passed, most when I was still youngish, and no one thought to put any of their history on paper or chart it in any way.


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## AWP (Nov 28, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> Since the movie is comprised of Sledge's _Helmet for my Pillow_ and Leckie's _With the Old Breed_, I will pick those up to read between semesters.



You have the authors and books reversed. Sledge wrote With the Old Breed. I didn't care for Leckie's book but Sledge's is utterly amazing.


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## Devildoc (Nov 28, 2017)

AWP said:


> You have the authors and books reversed. Sledge wrote With the Old Breed. I didn't care for Leckie's book but Sledge's is utterly amazing.



Thanks, corrected.  I knew that...had an attack of the retards typing.

I've not read either one, but both have been on my list for years.


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## E.M.D.7/19 (Nov 28, 2017)

Ive seen the show but was unaware of books until now. I'll be ordering on Amazon today.thanks for the information.


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## Devildoc (Nov 28, 2017)

E.M.D.7/19 said:


> Ive seen the show but was unaware of books until now. I'll be ordering on Amazon today.thanks for the information.



I have read _The Pacific_, which is a great book in its own right, but much of the material came from Sledge's and Leckie's books, which I did not know until I read about the series.  Those books are staples in Marine Corps history.


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## BloodStripe (Nov 28, 2017)

And damn the Navy for leaving the Marines at Guadalcanal.


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## Devildoc (Nov 28, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> And damn the Navy for leaving the Marines at Guadalcanal.



One of the more egregious fuck ups.  The Navy's operations around Guadalcanal and Iron Bottom Sound were horrible.  WWII was full of fuck ups...the battle of Peleliu was one of the fiercest battles, yet didn't need to happen at all.  Friendly fire.  Atrocities.  Worthless/useless battles that did nothing to advance the allies' efforts.


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## Gunz (Nov 28, 2017)

Frank Jack Fletcher was always worried about his fuel even when he had plenty.

Our Navy got its ass pasted in night combat with the Japs. Until Ching Lee showed up. In the meantime the Marine perimeter got hammered by Jap naval bombardments.


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## Devildoc (Nov 28, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Frank Jack Fletcher was always worried about his fuel even when he had plenty.
> 
> Our Navy got its ass pasted in night combat with the Japs. Until Ching Lee showed up. In the meantime the Marine perimeter got hammered by Jap naval bombardments.



The Japanese didn't know how close they had come to nailing the US and winning at Guadalcanal.  If they had attacked the troop transports, they could have put more of their troops ashore and annihilated the Marines.  But out of the ashes of getting our asses waxed in the slot, we changed tactics and changed ship design with regard to firefighting and emergency electrical power.

Willis Lee was a sailor's sailor, much like Halsey.  If it wasn't for Lee the US forces in Guadalcanal would have been hurtin'.


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## Topkick (Nov 28, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> I don't know whether to post this here, general discussion, or books.
> 
> Just finished watching _The Pacific_.  It was excellent, much different than the book.  Although I have read books about the Marines' campaigns in WWII, the series put a visual on it, which for 'only entertainment,' was riveting enough.
> 
> ...



My brother somehow figured out that our great uncle marched in Bataan. He has newspaper articles about it and even tracked down his medals. It was worth the effort to research the family line.


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## Devildoc (Nov 28, 2017)

Topkick said:


> My brother somehow figured out that our great uncle marched in Bataan. He has newspaper articles about it and even tracked down his medals. It was worth the effort to research the family line.



My mother's cousin join the Marines in 1940 and retired in 1970, he saw action in the Pacific, Korea, and Vietnam. I know he died in 1995 and he had family about an hour from where I live, but have not figured out how to get in touch with them.

She had another cousin who was in the Army in World War II, was in Europe, I have no idea what he did. I do know that his last assignment was at Fort Bragg because that's where he lived when he retired.

I had an uncle who was a combat engineer with the 101st Airborne in WW2.  Because his kids, my cousins, are still around I do have a little more information on him.

That generation is all but gone, World War II veterans are few and far between, and with every passing I get a little sad that part of our living history is gone.


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## AWP (Nov 28, 2017)

Regarding Guadalcanal and the Navy check out James Hornfischer's Neptune's Inferno. It will put the Navy's work around Guadalcanal in a different light. The Navy had more casualties around Guadalcanal than the Marines.


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## Teufel (Nov 28, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> One of the more egregious fuck ups.  The Navy's operations around Guadalcanal and Iron Bottom Sound were horrible.  WWII was full of fuck ups...the battle of Peleliu was one of the fiercest battles, yet didn't need to happen at all.  Friendly fire.  Atrocities.  Worthless/useless battles that did nothing to advance the allies' efforts.


I don’t think it’s a fair assessment. Admiral a Fletcher was taking heavy losses from land based Japanese aircraft and was forced to choose between supporting the Marines ashore (and covering the supply transports) and risking 50% of the carriers in the Pacific with a large Japanese fleet in the area. He chose to pull out of land based air attack range and eventually consolidate the US fleets to defeat the Japanese in the area. Unfortunately it is easier to replace the initial wave of 10,000 Marines than it is to replace two carriers (with almost 5,000 sailors btw) and however many destroyers, cruisers, and frigates.  There is also debate whether or not the commander of the troop transports told Admiral Fletcher how much more equipment and personnel he had to deliver.

Also it couldn’t be that much of a fuck up; the US Navy defeated the Japanese fleet and the Marines seized Guadalcanal. Sure in hindsight Admiral Callaghan made some poor decisions under fire...before he died in battle. The US Navy did not have a monopoly on bad decisions. As you mentioned, the Japanese failed to destroy our transports. I couldn’t imagine commanding such large troop formations and making critical decisions on very little information.


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## Gunz (Nov 29, 2017)

Of all the books I've read about Guadalcanal's land and sea battles, one of the best by far was written by Navy Cross winner Sam Griffith, (Brigadier General, Ret.), who was the XO of the 1st Raider Bn and later its CO after Edson went on to command the 5th Marines.

I highly recommend it and you can pick it up for about $5 on Amazon. There's a lot to be said for accounts written by participants, especially those at battalion/regiment level.

https://www.amazon.com/Battle-Guadalcanal-Samuel-B-Griffith/dp/0252068912


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## Devildoc (Nov 29, 2017)

Teufel said:


> I don’t think it’s a fair assessment. Admiral a Fletcher was taking heavy losses from land based Japanese aircraft and was forced to choose between supporting the Marines ashore (and covering the supply transports) and risking 50% of the carriers in the Pacific with a large Japanese fleet in the area. He chose to pull out of land based air attack range and eventually consolidate the US fleets to defeat the Japanese in the area. Unfortunately it is easier to replace the initial wave of 10,000 Marines than it is to replace two carriers (with almost 5,000 sailors btw) and however many destroyers, cruisers, and frigates.  There is also debate whether or not the commander of the troop transports told Admiral Fletcher how much more equipment and personnel he had to deliver.
> 
> Also it couldn’t be that much of a fuck up; the US Navy defeated the Japanese fleet and the Marines seized Guadalcanal. Sure in hindsight Admiral Callaghan made some poor decisions under fire...before he died in battle. The US Navy did not have a monopoly on bad decisions. As you mentioned, the Japanese failed to destroy our transports. I couldn’t imagine commanding such large troop formations and making critical decisions on very little information.



Fair or not, the assessment isn't entirely mine:  books have been written about it, so I am far from the first person to interpret Fletcher's behaviors as suspect. In _Black Shoe Carrier Admiral_, the author stated Fletcher had information to act, but chose inaction, and regretted his decision; also, not understanding how to best employ aviation assets.  That said, the USNI published an article supporting that Fletcher got "a bum rap".  I admit there are two sides to every story, and I also admit I haven't done an exhaustive reading on Fletcher, so I may change my mind with more information.

The Naval battle at Guadalcanal was certainly a mixed bag; not entirely a fuck-up.  The US and Aussies did not know how to fight at night and looked like the Keystone Cops during the night action, but owned the seas during the day.  And although the night action was a steep and painful learning curve, the US responded better learning from it than did the Japanese.  But it was costly with 30 US ships sunk; and a handful of Australian and New Zealand losses as well.


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## AWP (Nov 29, 2017)

Scroll to the bottom for losses:
A Guadalcanal Chronology & Order of Battle

Another option, though this doesn't show ships lost in battles further from the island, but related to the campaign.
Battle for Guadalcanal: 50 WWII Ships Sank


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## Devildoc (Nov 30, 2017)

@AWP , I do not know if it is still Navy tradition, it probably is, but when a Navy vessel sails in the area they man the rails and the ship is silent until they pass through.  That is about a fifth of our entire fleet today.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 30, 2017)

AWP said:


> Scroll to the bottom for losses:
> A Guadalcanal Chronology & Order of Battle
> k.


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