# Sexual Assault



## Soldado (May 23, 2013)

> *West Point case adds to military sex abuse scandals*
> 
> ALBANY, N.Y. — Charges that an Army sergeant secretly photographed and videotaped women at West Point are part of a military-wide pattern of sexual misconduct, Sen. Kirsten Gillibrand of New York said on Thursday.
> 
> ...


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## fox1371 (May 23, 2013)

Is there a reason you posted this up?  Do you have an opinion on the topic?  I'm not saying it's bad that you posted it, however usually it's good to add some talking points so that the board can have a healthy debate regarding...which brand of handcuffs to use...uh...I mean the topic.


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## Soldado (May 23, 2013)

My reason to post this was to inform to your people about a big problem, even I've seen that kind of problems of the US Armed Forces in local newspapers. My opinion is that it is terrible to have that kind of problems in the civilian life and in the military maybe helped by the misfeasance and it HAS to be eliminated.


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## policemedic (May 23, 2013)

Soldado said:


> My reason to post this was to inform to your people about a big problem, even I've seen that kind of problems of the US Armed Forces in local newspapers.


 
Thank you for informing me; clearly I missed what little, low-level reporting was done. 
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/201...ng-naked-female-cadets-without-their-consent/ 



> My opinion is that it is terrible to have that kind of problems in the military maybe helped by the misfeasance and it HAS to be eliminated.


 
To the extent it exists, I agree. This conduct should not be tolerated in any organization be it military or civilian.


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## ThunderHorse (May 31, 2013)

ONE, TWO, THREE: GO NAVY

http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...497b26-ca28-11e2-8da7-d274bc611a47_story.html


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## Teufel (Jun 1, 2013)

ThunderHorse said:


> ONE, TWO, THREE: GO NAVY
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...497b26-ca28-11e2-8da7-d274bc611a47_story.html


 
This happens pretty frequently unfortunately.  A lot of the allegations are pretty shady though.  Hard to tell what's real and what's not.


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## Teufel (Jun 1, 2013)

ThunderHorse said:


> ONE, TWO, THREE: GO NAVY
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...497b26-ca28-11e2-8da7-d274bc611a47_story.html


 
Also, I'm not sure that sexual assault should be a punch line.  Regardless of service rivalries.


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 1, 2013)

Teufel said:


> This happens pretty frequently unfortunately. A lot of the allegations are pretty shady though. Hard to tell what's real and what's not.


 
Yeah, things are cool until the female either loses face or wants something you're not willing to provide. Exactly why I never even attempted to pursue (and recommended against) any sort of relations with female servicemembers.  Even just in PLDC, there were allegations made and shot the fuck down by some women that didn't like having to do XYZ and so attempted to infer things about the cadre... except the cadre was smart and students were a no-lone-zone.


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## ThunderHorse (Jun 1, 2013)

Teufel said:


> Also, I'm not sure that sexual assault should be a punch line. Regardless of service rivalries.


Not really as an inter-service rivalry as apparently there's something going down at West Point...all being said what happened to Colorado Springs, I know things did not just become peaches and creme after they took down the "We Want Men" sign...honestly that sign would have been cool to see.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 1, 2013)

ThunderHorse said:


> Not really as an inter-service rivalry as apparently there's something going down at West Point...all being said what happened to Colorado Springs, I know things did not just become peaches and creme after they took down the "We Want Men" sign...honestly that sign would have been cool to see.


 

What happened at West Point is inexcusable, but similar events happen at all the service academies, unfortunately.  This was just in the news ref. Annapolis:




> The U.S. Naval Academy is investigating allegations that three of the school’s football players sexually assaulted a female midshipman at a party last year — an explosive allegation that surfaced Friday as the military faces increased scrutiny over whether it pursues such cases aggressively enough.
> 
> There were 13 reported cases of sexual assault at the Naval Academy in the 2011-12 school year, down from 22 the year before, according to the most recently available statistics from the Defense Department.


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## Brill (Jun 1, 2013)

Is "this" merely a reflection of society though?  Anyone (e.g. Obama and Hagel before making it a political issue) compared the mil vs civ rates of sexual crime?

Interestingly, isn't this the EXACT thing the DOJ should be looking into? :whatever:


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## Teufel (Jun 1, 2013)

lindy said:


> Is "this" merely a reflection of society though? Anyone (e.g. Obama and Hagel before making it a political issue) compared the mil vs civ rates of sexual crime?
> 
> Interestingly, isn't this the EXACT thing the DOJ should be looking into? :whatever:


 
So my girlfriend is a military lawyer who has dealt with this stuff.  Not the Academy stuff but military sexual assault cases.  It is extremely difficult to prove acquaintance rape, which is what all the Academy cases are.  No one at the Academy has been roofied (at least not in the cases in the news).  All the cases involved alcohol and drunken sex.  The girl claims she was too drunk to consent, the guy says she was.  There was a couple of cases that occurred while I was a midshipmen (back in the day!) and in all three cases the victim was notorious for sleeping around.  So now you have a he said - she said and the defense attorney is going to make the popular football player out to be a rockstar midshipman and the chick to be a tramp.  Additionally, a lot of the cases are further clouded.  Drinking and having sex on campus are both guaranteed tickets home.  No kidding.  Sometimes girls will get caught having sex on campus and then claim they were raped.  They don't get kicked out but the guy is gone the next day.  Even if he is innocent of rape he is guilty of the other offenses....and he's gone.  I saw it happen several times.  These cry wolf accusations make it hard to believe the real victims.  

That all being said, the military will bring most sexual assault cases to trial.  This is not true in the civilian sector.  Most prosecutors won't touch a he said - she said assault case.  Too difficult to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt.  So they try to plea the perps out or just drop it entirely.  Most of the cases on college campuses don't even result in suspensions or dismissals.  So far the Academies have dropped every alleged perpetrator as part of a plea agreement.  People may not be happy with this punishment, but it is a punishment and it is more than what happens in the civilian world.


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## amlove21 (Jun 2, 2013)

Soldado said:


> My reason to post this was to inform to your people about a big problem, even I've seen that kind of problems of the US Armed Forces in local newspapers. My opinion is that it is terrible to have that kind of problems in the civilian life and in the military maybe helped by the misfeasance and it HAS to be eliminated.


 
I will put the US military sexual assault numbers per capita against any division one NCAA school in the nation. This "problem" has been wildly exaggerated. 

Let me be clear- sexual assault is inexcusable. I have been on both sides of this proverbial argument (I had a male troop wrongly accused and a good female friend assaulted). I do not tolerate this, and the men on my team know that if I find out that something like this happens, and it's found to be them as the perpetrator and at fault, that I will absolutely nail them to the wall as an example.


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## Spider6 (Jun 4, 2013)

Teufel said:


> So my girlfriend is a military lawyer who has dealt with this stuff. Not the Academy stuff but military sexual assault cases. It is extremely difficult to prove acquaintance rape, which is what all the Academy cases are. No one at the Academy has been roofied (at least not in the cases in the news). All the cases involved alcohol and drunken sex. The girl claims she was too drunk to consent, the guy says she was. There was a couple of cases that occurred while I was a midshipmen (back in the day!) and in all three cases the victim was notorious for sleeping around. So now you have a he said - she said and the defense attorney is going to make the popular football player out to be a rockstar midshipman and the chick to be a tramp. Additionally, a lot of the cases are further clouded. Drinking and having sex on campus are both guaranteed tickets home. No kidding. Sometimes girls will get caught having sex on campus and then claim they were raped. They don't get kicked out but the guy is gone the next day. Even if he is innocent of rape he is guilty of the other offenses....and he's gone. I saw it happen several times. These cry wolf accusations make it hard to believe the real victims.
> 
> That all being said, the military will bring most sexual assault cases to trial. This is not true in the civilian sector. Most prosecutors won't touch a he said - she said assault case. Too difficult to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. So they try to plea the perps out or just drop it entirely. Most of the cases on college campuses don't even result in suspensions or dismissals. So far the Academies have dropped every alleged perpetrator as part of a plea agreement. People may not be happy with this punishment, but it is a punishment and it is more than what happens in the civilian world.


 
Thank you for the post sir.  After serving as cop for a little while it didn't take long for me to experience the frustration with investigating and successfully prosecuting rape cases.

These cry wolf accusations make it hard to believe the real victims.

Evidently these are also on the rise.

False reports outpace sex assaults in the military

http://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2013/may/12/false-reports-outpace-sex-assaults-in-the-military/


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## ThunderHorse (Jun 5, 2013)

I've been getting SHARPED out of my life.


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## RetPara (Jun 6, 2013)

I think this may be worse than DOD's issue. 10K+ rape kits that had not been processed were found in storage in 2009. DNA testing will cost $4Million +.

http://www.freep.com/article/20130605/NEWS06/306050084/-4M-sought-test-old-rape-kits-found-Detroit


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## Rexus (Jun 6, 2013)

RetPara said:


> I think this may be worse than DOD's issue. 10K+ rape kits that had not been processed were found in storage in 2009. DNA testing will cost $4Million +.


 
Wow, that's actually not that surprising, which in itself is pretty fucked up. In areas with high crime rates like Detroit and L.A. where Law Enforcement can't keep up with crimes committed, they don't have the resources/budget to make rape kits a priority so they get stuck on the back burner and forgotten.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 6, 2013)

11 THOUSAND untested rape kits??    I hope the city has a good legal team to sort through the litigation that's going to (rightfully) result from this.


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## pardus (Jun 6, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> 11 THOUSAND untested rape kits?? .


 
How does one test a rape kit? :-/


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## Marauder06 (Jun 6, 2013)

pardus said:


> How does one test a rape kit? :-/


 

Aren't you the medic?

http://www.rainn.org/get-information/sexual-assault-recovery/rape-kit


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## pardus (Jun 6, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> Aren't you the medic?
> 
> http://www.rainn.org/get-information/sexual-assault-recovery/rape-kit


 
I guess I was a little subtle with my post. That was not what I meant lol


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 7, 2013)

I don't know DNA testing capabilities, but I am not exactly sure if the DNA will last for 10 years on a kit when stored in a forgotten warehouse somewhere in Detroit.

I think the Casualty teams in Vietnam have better luck in the jungles than rolling those dice.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 7, 2013)

Ranger Psych said:


> I don't know DNA testing capabilities, but I am not exactly sure if the DNA will last for 10 years on a kit when stored in a forgotten warehouse somewhere in Detroit.
> 
> I think the Casualty teams in Vietnam have better luck in the jungles than rolling those dice.


 

Even if the DNA is still good, defense teams would probably have a field day with chain-of-evidence custody.


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## policemedic (Jun 7, 2013)

Rexus said:


> Wow, that's actually not that surprising, which in itself is pretty fucked up. In areas with high crime rates like Detroit and L.A. where Law Enforcement can't keep up with crimes committed, they don't have the resources/budget to make rape kits a priority so they get stuck on the back burner and forgotten.



Thank you for your expert analysis of the plight of urban law enforcement agencies.


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## racing_kitty (Jun 7, 2013)

There was an EOD tech that I knew who had been sleeping with a psycho broad off and on at his last duty station.  One night, she apparently got a case of the ass and tried to file rape charges against him.  There was just one problem, though: at the time that she said the alleged "rape" occurred, the MP's had already had him pulled over for a while for cutting doughnuts in the parade field in the (stolen) response truck after drinking a few brews.  Talk about a rock solid alibi.  

Not everyone who's found themselves on the bad end of a bad accusation is going to be lucky enough to have that kind of rock solid evidence to shoot a bitch down in flames like that.  What's sad is that this particular situation was not the first one that I have encountered where the female was full of complete bullshit when attempting to start the sexual misconduct avalanche.  While I have known a couple of females who were honestly the victims of sexual misconduct (not rape, thankfully), I have encountered more bullshit accusations than I have legitimate claims.  What I am wondering, and this is in light of my best friend having deployed as a SARC a few years ago, is whether or not anybody has bothered to figure out just exactly what percentage of the unreported cases are victims of male-on-male sexual assault?  Or is that not a politically correct question to ask?


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## Centermass (Jun 7, 2013)

pardus said:


> How does one test a rape kit? :-/


 

First, get the sheep to remain still.......


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## ThunderHorse (Jun 15, 2013)

http://jezebel.com/butt-plugs-and-bitches-the-emails-west-point-doesnt-w-511519204

YMMV, but the dissolution of the Rugby club at Hudson High was public enough to make last week's Army Times...so like with many things, about the Point, why are these men officers in the US Army?

Because I will be clear cut...when allegations come down at my alma mater the General gets up if he's abed with his wife and takes the cadet in his coatee and summarily dismisses him swiftly.  I haven't seen females dealt with the same way, especially when in Stephen Lloyd's case back in 2009 he was innocent.  He lost his Army commission, went to jail, and became a registered sex offender.  The female was later suspended for a year (not dismissed, she would come back and graduate, although pretty much had 1500 people hating her) after having participated in an orgy on a glee club trip.  Dirty laundry et al, I'm just giving you the first major example during my cadetship.

But...we have a problem sweeping shit under a rug in the Army it still seems.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 15, 2013)

What is your problem with West Point?  This isn't the first time you've bashed the school.  I'm curious to know what motivates you to paint an entire institution, and its officers, with the same dark brush.  Is it something personal?

What did you want to have happen, the entire team be dismissed from the academy and drummed out of the service?  Are you telling me that conversations like this, as repulsive as they are, don't take place in colleges all over the country?  I think the cadets were adequately punished in accordance with the nature of the offense.  Such things should not be tolerated- and it wasn't once it was brought to the attention of the administration.  

As far as what happens at your alma mater (VMI, if I remember correctly?) from your description, the General's actions seem like PC BS than leadership.  Dismissing someone in the middle of the night, on the basis of a mere ALLEGATION??? If that's really what happens at your school, I'm glad I didn't go there.


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## policemedic (Jun 16, 2013)

ThunderHorse said:


> http://jezebel.com/butt-plugs-and-bitches-the-emails-west-point-doesnt-w-511519204
> 
> Because I will be clear cut...when allegations come down at my alma mater the General gets up if he's abed with his wife and takes the cadet in his coatee and summarily dismisses him swiftly. I haven't seen females dealt with the same way, especially when in Stephen Lloyd's case back in 2009 he was innocent. He lost his Army commission, went to jail, and became a registered sex offender. The female was later suspended for a year (not dismissed, she would come back and graduate, although pretty much had 1500 people hating her) after having participated in an orgy on a glee club trip. Dirty laundry et al, I'm just giving you the first major example during my cadetship.
> 
> But...we have a problem sweeping shit under a rug in the Army it still seems.


 
It seems several Generals at VMI should have participated in the school's adversative discipline program themselves, given that they were propagating unconstitutional policies for nigh on 128 years.  In fact, for those 128 years all the cadets and cadre--who as commissioned officers had sworn to uphold the United States Constitution--chose to simply disregard the 14th Amendment.  As I recall, the United States Supreme Court had to set them straight.  As we're discussing issues regarding sexual impropriety and the general treatment of women, perhaps VMI shouldn't be held up as a shining example in these matters.



ThunderHorse said:


> YMMV, but the dissolution of the Rugby club at Hudson High was public enough to make last week's Army Times...so like with many things, about the Point, why are these men officers in the US Army?


 
Could not the same question be posed to each and every VMI cadet who, prior to the 1996 SCOTUS decision, participated in a system that denied women equal rights under the Constitution and then raised their hands to swear to defend and uphold that very same document _and all its several Amendments?_


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## ThunderHorse (Jun 16, 2013)

policemedic

Shining example, it was a tough place then, it's a tough place for all now. What was unconstitutional? VMI wasn't the only gender segregated school in the state, there were three all-women state colleges in Virginia at the time which have since become co-educational as that ruling that brought women to Post also brought men to those campuses.

Marauder06

Why? Wdym paint with a broad brush? In regards to emails and stories? Well, of course they happen amongst friends everywhere. However, in this case it got these cadets "punished"? All I read was that the team was dissolved, it said nothing about them having to march 60 or whatever "hours" IOT graduate. I didn't really bash Hudson High, I was really pointing to the fact of what VMI has done. Is it shady, it sure as hell is, especially when the person I mentioned was damned innocent. However, I was pointing to the fact that a moment something happens that can bring the Institute into disrepute, the Institute acts, and acts like the wind. And usually there tends to be a booking in county that does that.

I wouldn't say I really dislike West Point, it's more a rivalry thing, there are many a WP graduate I respect/like/look up to, and there are many that are my peers that I wonder how they not only got in, but were allowed to graduate, and that had everything to do with their personal character.

So is it a broad stroke? Most saber cuts are. 

p.s. I, as an alumnus of VMI,  have pride that was beat into me, but I also have disgust for decisions that were made and continue to be made there and I voice my opinion of the place in forums to where my voice may be heard by those that make said decisions.


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## Soldado (Jul 8, 2013)

Sexual assault is a serious crime and topic:

http://navylive.dodlive.mil/2013/07/08/mcpon-to-sailors-we-must-solve-sexual-assault-together/

http://navylive.dodlive.mil/2013/06...eet-wide-sexual-assault-awareness-stand-down/


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## policemedic (Jul 8, 2013)

:wall:


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## JHD (Jul 9, 2013)

I had an assistant, female, who was former Army.  She had an ENORMOUS chip on her shoulder.   She told me that during her time in the Army she had been raped twice.  She was an employee that if she did anything wrong, it was always someone else's fault.  In a circumstance where I had two other highly-trusted-by everyone-employees state that she had said and done something worthy of being terminated, she was misunderstood and the other two eyewitnesses were wrong.

If I had been her commanding officer I would not have believed her, and doubt that "rape" actually occurred.  I don't know that it didn't, but based on what I know about her, I have a really hard time believing it.  Situations like this make legitimate rape accusations more questionable, unfortunately.


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## racing_kitty (Jul 10, 2013)

During my ten years and eight months of Army service, I can honestly say that on one occasion I encountered something that could have been classified as sexual assault (not rape, just inappropriate contact).  There were witnesses to the event, and my unit handled it in house to my satisfaction.  

That being said, the issue with sexual assault/rape charges is that when it comes to females, there are entirely too damned many false accusations made against males.  This serves no purpose except to diminish the accusations that can be substantiated.  I've been questioned in a couple of 15-6 investigations where a female I was either acquainted with or was in my unit had lodged a complaint of a sexual nature that was utter bullshit, and I testified to that fact.  I guess you could say I turned in my estrogen card with that one, but it fucking happens.  I know I've mentioned in the past how another bomb jockey I know was able to shoot down a rape charge that came from a woman who was pissed off at him because he didn't want to have sex with her crazy ass anymore.  If it wasn't for that hard evidence, his career would've been ruined.

Also, let's not forget that not all the sexual assaults are male-on-female.  Male-on-male is underreported like crazy, because what barrel-chested freedom fighter wants to come forward to admit that he was bested in a fight and had his one cherry popped?  

Sexual misbehavior of a criminal nature should not be tolerated under any circumstances, but it's right difficult to separate the wheat from the chaff when the caliber of complainants are as vindictive and unreliable as many of them are.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 10, 2013)

racing_kitty said:


> Your post...


I wish I could have liked it also.  Great points here RK.


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## pardus (Jul 10, 2013)

I witnessed a male on male sexual assault. I reported it, CID interviewed about a dozen plus people. The E6 in question was removed from the deployment within 2-3 days of me reporting it. Turns out at least half a dozen other people spoke up and said this prick had done the same to them (not rape, touching etc...).
CID said they would give monthly updates to the main victim until the trial.


Cricket.... Cricket....

No one heard another word about it and the E6 was allowed to retire (I think without benefits though).
They fucking covered it up. in 2012/2013. At that level, I have NO fucking faith in the system.

I'm going to punch the next SHARPE training lecturer I see.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 11, 2013)

Pardus,  remember that the military prosecution system is jacked up.  Commanders still have a say so in what happens to the accused.  From working as a CID Agent, sexual assaults crimes are the biggest fail, the case can be rock solid, as yours was....but once presented to the prosecution...the commander of the accused still has final say so in what the punishment is or will be.  Until the military works the same as civilian law enforcement in cases of felonies, the system will remain FUBAR.

This latest SHARP video training was time I will never get back....what a waste.


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## reed11b (Jul 11, 2013)

racing_kitty said:


> During my ten years and eight months of Army service, I can honestly say that on one occasion I encountered something that could have been classified as sexual assault (not rape, just inappropriate contact).  There were witnesses to the event, and my unit handled it in house to my satisfaction.
> 
> That being said, the issue with sexual assault/rape charges is that when it comes to females, there are entirely too damned many false accusations made against males.  This serves no purpose except to diminish the accusations that can be substantiated.  I've been questioned in a couple of 15-6 investigations where a female I was either acquainted with or was in my unit had lodged a complaint of a sexual nature that was utter bullshit, and I testified to that fact.  I guess you could say I turned in my estrogen card with that one, but it fucking happens.  I know I've mentioned in the past how another bomb jockey I know was able to shoot down a rape charge that came from a woman who was pissed off at him because he didn't want to have sex with her crazy ass anymore.  If it wasn't for that hard evidence, his career would've been ruined.
> 
> ...


 The "what else is true" is that any protections put in place to prevent that from happening will immediatly be abused by toxic commands to prevent prosecution of soldiers that were not falsley accused. It's a challange that can't just legislated away. Recruiting from a more mature base would help a lot.
Reed


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## DA SWO (Jul 11, 2013)

Kraut783 said:


> Pardus,  remember that the military prosecution system is jacked up.  Commanders still have a say so in what happens to the accused.  From working as a CID Agent, sexual assaults crimes are the biggest fail, the case can be rock solid, as yours was....but once presented to the prosecution...the commander of the accused still has final say so in what the punishment is or will be.  Until the military works the same as civilian law enforcement in cases of felonies, the system will remain FUBAR.
> This latest SHARP video training was time I will never get back....what a waste.


Military JAG's have to be less risk adverse too.

I know a case where a Sr NCO got caught fooling around, and "sexting" with govt computers/phones.  Commander wanted to hammer him, but Hq JAG wouldn't press the case.
He retired and moved on.

My wife had a case where CID wouldn't get involved, she had to ask OSI for assistance, the LTC was convicted (falsifying CAB papers, among other things) and sent to KS.

There is no unified investigation process, commanders with a different spanks attitude (no different then civilian DA's), and no punishment for filing a false report.

BTW- The nastiest sexual assault case my HH6 has prosecuted involved a CSM who was fondling his male soldiers under the guise of improving their PT form.


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## policemedic (Jul 11, 2013)

Kraut783 said:


> Pardus,  remember that the military prosecution system is jacked up.  Commanders still have a say so in what happens to the accused.  From working as a CID Agent, sexual assaults crimes are the biggest fail, the case can be rock solid, as yours was....but once presented to the prosecution...the commander of the accused still has final say so in what the punishment is or will be.  Until the military works the same as civilian law enforcement in cases of felonies, the system will remain FUBAR.
> 
> This latest SHARP video training was time I will never get back....what a waste.



That would drive me batshit insane.  Sex crimes are hard enough to work.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 15, 2013)

SECDEF Hagel's speech at West Point ref. sex assault:

http://www.politico.com/story/2013/05/chuck-hagel-west-point-speech-sex-assault-91889.html



> Defense Secretary Chuck Hagel told the nation’s newest Army officers on Saturday that they’re now on the front lines of a new battle against the growing problem of sexual assault in the military.
> 
> Hagel drew applause at the graduation ceremony at the U.S. Military Academy in West Point, N.Y. when he told the crowd: “These crimes have no place - no place - in the greatest military on earth.  Other threats to the health and the quality of the all-volunteer force are increasing – alcohol and drug abuse, suicide and mental illness, sexual harassment and sexual assault,” Hagel said. “You will need to not just deal with these debilitating, insidious and destructive forces but rather be you must be the generation of leaders that stop it.”


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