# Some Things Never Change (Pakistan)



## Marauder06 (Sep 30, 2012)

For a project I am working on for school, I'm perusing the archives of the historian of the State Department. They have posted old (i.e. de-classified) documents from a variety of eras and countries. I'm focusing right now on Pakistan, 1961-1963. I was struck by how long we have propped up the perpetually-failing state of Pakistan, how much it has cost us, how little it has gained us, and how close the events of today mirror those of the past. Here is just one example:



> The need for external assistance looms large in [Paksitan's] approach to foreign policy... Pakistan relies for a major portion of its required aid, economic as well as military, on the US, [they believe] that as an ally it should have a special right to such aid, and that the aid it has received to date has not fulfilled its expectations


 
Just change the date and the signature block, and these cables could be going out today, not 50 years ago:



> Pakistan's relations with the US will probably continue to be judged to a considerable degree in the light of US relations with India and Afghanistan. There are likely to be fairly persistent expressions of dissatisfaction with US aid and repeated requests for demonstrations of US confidence and support. In this atmosphere, the possibility will remain that foreign policy problems, especially if they are coupled with unfavorable internal developments, could seriously erode Pakistan's close association with the US.


 
This was a bit of a LOL moment, given the current circumstances in Pakistan:



> [the leader of Pakistan]  responded with general comments about conditions in Southeast Asia. Much of *the problem, he said, arose because most of the rulers were princes and others wanting mainly to protect their own interests*. Unless they were prepared to identify themselves with their own people, *no amount of aid would save them*. If *the U.S. wanted to help them, it should insist that they undertake reforms*.


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## AWP (Sep 30, 2012)

For the record:

Fuck Pakistan.


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 30, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> For the record:
> 
> Fuck Pakistan.


 
Mara, this should be the title of your project! 

The more things change, the more they stay the same.
If we don't learn from history...
And on and on...


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## Chopstick (Sep 30, 2012)

I concur on the selection of title.


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## ProPatria (Sep 30, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Mara, this should be the title of your project!


 
I approve this message.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 30, 2012)

lol

I'm doing research on a project someone else is conducting, and I don't think he'd be quite as proud of that title as the rest of us are. ;)


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 30, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> lol
> 
> I'm doing research on a project someone else is conducting, and I don't think he'd be quite as proud of that title as the rest of us are. ;)


But Sir, I thought that was the whole _raison d'etre_ for an O...taking credit and what not.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 30, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> But Sir, I thought that was the whole _raison d'etre_ for an O...taking credit and what not.


 
Yeah... I got "out-O'd" on this one, I'm doing the nug work, his name goes on the by-line when it gets published.  But I'm getting something out of it too, so it's all good.  And it has been a lot of fun so far.


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## Dame (Sep 30, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> Yeah... I got "out-O'd" on this one, I'm doing the nug work, his name goes on the by-line when it gets published. But I'm getting something out of it too, so it's all good. And it has been a lot of fun so far.


Someone has a bigger O than you?


ETA: I don't believe it.


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## Mac_NZ (Sep 30, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> But I'm getting something out of it too


 
What, a salty aftertaste?


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## CDG (Oct 1, 2012)

A bit later, but I am currently reading "Charlie Wilson's War". It's amazing that we allowed some drunk Congressman to so heavy-handedly meddle with Pakistan because he wanted to nail some idealistic Houston socialite.  Throwing dinners in the US for Zia ul-Haq so you can run around and tell everyone what a great guy he is and it wasn't his fault Bhutto was executed?   Awesome.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 1, 2012)

Great movie as well.
...I have a short attention span.


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## AWP (Oct 1, 2012)

It was an okay movie missing chunks of the book, a book which happened to overplay Rep. Wilson's role.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 1, 2012)

So the "truth" is somewhere between the book and the movie?


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## TH15 (Oct 1, 2012)

"The Main Enemy" by Milt Bearden goes into some detail on Charlie Wilson and his mingling with the Pakistanis/Afghans. You get the CIA perspective on him from the book and it's a great read nonetheless.


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## AWP (Oct 1, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> So the "truth" is somewhere between the book and the movie?


 
More like outside of the book. A lot of people were involved in the arms deals and when it was all over, I think he was a good "face" for the program. The Saudis were going to outspend us anyway, so I've often wondered how much of our money was spent to help the Afghans and defeat the Soviets or to simply save face.

Think of Wilson's story: here was a guy who was investigated by Congress, and think about how awesome your transgressions must be for that to happen, exonerated (sort of, no one could prove anything), and then suddenly in a matter of a few years has somehow managed to rally the House and Senate to open their checkbooks? He went from a pariah to Man of the Hour in just a few years over this issue alone? As a Democrat, he managed to convince everyone to "buy" (literally) into supporting the Afghans during the Reagan years?

The book and the movie make it sound like without Charlie Wilson the Soviet Bear would have steamrolled the Afghans and that Wilson's support for Stingers was instrumental in turning the war around. Um, no, the Soviets were making plans to leave MONTHS before the Stingers showed up outside of Jalalabad.

At one point in either CW's War or Ghost Wars, it mentions how the CIA was against some of the weapons Wilson wanted to purchase. Wilson was so emotionally attached to the issue he didn't care...I don't recall if they were purchased or not, but the guy's opinion that Wilson blew off, because Charlie knew better?

http://www.defense.gov/bios/biographydetail.aspx?biographyid=178



> From 1973 to 1986, Secretary Vickers served as an Army Special Forces Non-Commissioned Officer, Special Forces Officer, and CIA Operations Officer. He had operational and combat experience in Central America and the Caribbean, the Middle East, and Central and South Asia. His operational experience spans covert action and espionage, unconventional warfare, counterterrorism, counterinsurgency, and foreign internal defense.* During the mid-1980s, Secretary Vickers was the principal strategist for the largest covert action program in the CIA’s history: the paramilitary operation that drove the Soviet army out of Afghanistan.*


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 1, 2012)

Thank you for the info, Free!


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## CDG (Oct 1, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> More like outside of the book. A lot of people were involved in the arms deals and when it was all over, I think he was a good "face" for the program. The Saudis were going to outspend us anyway, so I've often wondered how much of our money was spent to help the Afghans and defeat the Soviets or to simply save face.
> 
> Think of Wilson's story: here was a guy who was investigated by Congress, and think about how awesome your transgressions must be for that to happen, exonerated (sort of, no one could prove anything), and then suddenly in a matter of a few years has somehow managed to rally the House and Senate to open their checkbooks? He went from a pariah to Man of the Hour in just a few years over this issue alone? As a Democrat, he managed to convince everyone to "buy" (literally) into supporting the Afghans during the Reagan years?
> 
> ...


 
Not only did he undergo a drug investigation, he had a DUI hit and run accident that was covered up DURING the fucking drug investigation.  He basically created foreign policy and approved funding increases before actually clearing any of it through the appropriate channels.  The guy was a fucking egomaniacal shithead who should have never been elected in the first place.  He got in his head that he somehow knew exactly what the Afghans needed to fight the Soviets, despite the clear limitations of the Oerlikon weapon system he was in such favor of.  Nevermind the weight, difficulty moving, or cost of rounds, ol' Charlie was gonna get them gosh-durned Afghanistanians their helicopter killer gosh durnit.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 17, 2013)

http://worldnews.nbcnews.com/_news/...nce-girlfriend-may-be-shot?lite&lite=obinsite




> "The girl left her home on Monday and met Anwar Din when villagers saw them," said Munir Hussain, the head of the local jirga, or tribal court, that sentenced Din to death. "We took the girl into custody and took the boy to the local graveyard where he was stoned to death and buried."
> Din was killed on Monday, he added. A government official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said the jirga had ruled the woman must be shot to death. It was not immediately clear if this had already taken place.


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## AWP (Mar 17, 2013)

Staying classy as always.


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 17, 2013)

Fuck that entire part of the world.  
I sleep better at night knowing we'd never fund/support people who do awful things like this.


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## AWP (Apr 12, 2013)

Meanwhile, Pakistan's march to Secularity Hilarity* continues.

http://edition.cnn.com/2013/04/11/world/asia/pakistan-candidate-shooting/



> Islam was a member of Muttahida Quami Movement or MQM, Pakistan's most liberal and secular political party that is firmly opposed to the Pakistani Taliban or TTP.
> Pakistani Taliban leader Hakimullah Mehsud has told Pakistanis to stay away from the elections.
> "We are not in favor of democracy, *democracy is for Jews and Christians*" he said in recent propaganda video.


 
That's my favorite quote of the year. Top THAT, Internet!

* - I should trademark this.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 12, 2013)

> democracy is for Jews and Christians


 
And all this time I thought it was "Death for Jews and Christians."  Who knew...


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