# SOF parachute into North Korea



## Salt USMC (May 28, 2012)

> *US commandos parachuted into N. Korea: report*
> 
> US and South Korean special forces have been parachuting into North Korea to gather intelligence about underground military installations, a US officer has said in comments carried in US media.
> Army Brigadier General Neil Tolley, commander of US special forces in South Korea, told a conference held in Florida last week that Pyongyang had built thousands of tunnels since the Korean war, The Diplomat reported.
> ...


http://news.yahoo.com/us-commandos-parachuted-n-korea-report-212356834.html
I know Yahoo news is a paragon of journalistic integrity, but how much truth could there really be to this? Seems stupid to put it out in the open if its true. The other alternative, that this is a PSYOP move to spook the N. Koreans and make then look for Americans in every shadow, seems plausible, but I would think there are subtler ways to make a nation's Army paranoid. Hell, this is like saying to the world, "Yeah guys, we've got SOF up in North Korea! *wink, wink*".


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (May 29, 2012)

My money is on PSYOP but still it wouldn't surprise me if it's true. That country is gonna self-implode before too long. When that happens expect a quick but nasty war with them or the country formerly known as N.Korea becoming part of China.


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## SpitfireV (May 29, 2012)

Giving North Korea the paranoid shakes wouldn't be a particularly wise move in and of itself.


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## SpitfireV (May 29, 2012)

JohnnyBoyUSMC said:


> When that happens expect a quick but nasty war with them or the country formerly known as N.Korea becoming part of China.


 

I can't agree with this I'm afraid. It's not in China's ethnic, economic or political interest to take DPRK under her wing.


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## DA SWO (May 29, 2012)

SpitfireV said:


> I can't agree with this I'm afraid. It's not in China's ethnic, economic or political interest to take DPRK under her wing.


Politically they could run the N 1/3 and let the South have the rest.  That would give them the buffer that NK now provides.


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## AWP (May 29, 2012)

The history of running agents into NK is a pretty bleak one. Even in cases like Vietnam within a few years of the partition we didn't have a great deal of success (our OPSEC was also crap back then), so now we're regularly going into one of the most totalitarian countries on the planet?


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (May 29, 2012)

SpitfireV said:


> I can't agree with this I'm afraid. It's not in China's ethnic, economic or political interest to take DPRK under her wing.


 
It is if it keeps a pro-American govt from controlling the entire peninsula, and they'd only go to such extreme lengths if the regime there was collapsing and about to "use em or lose em" with their nukes. The Chinese are happy playing the cold war chess game the Soviet's did with us, but the amount of economic trade and such they have invested with us makes nuclear war not something their gunning for.


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## SpitfireV (May 29, 2012)

JohnnyBoyUSMC said:


> It is if it keeps a pro-American govt from controlling the entire peninsula, and they'd only go to such extreme lengths if the regime there was collapsing and about to "use em or lose em" with their nukes. The Chinese are happy playing the cold war chess game the Soviet's did with us, but the amount of economic trade and such they have invested with us makes nuclear war not something their gunning for.


 
That game was played by both sides, remember. You have to remember that if they took on DPRK two things would happen: They would have to make them semi-independant (they couldn't take them in as a full provience) and this in itself would inspire the Uighers and Tibetians. Not to mention that they're not Han or part of the One China concept. All this would make it unlikely that they would take them on.



SOWT said:


> Politically they could run the N 1/3 and let the South have the rest. That would give them the buffer that NK now provides.


 
See above.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (May 29, 2012)

SpitfireV said:


> That game was played by both sides, remember. You have to remember that if they took on DPRK two things would happen: They would have to make them semi-independant (they couldn't take them in as a full provience) and this in itself would inspire the Uighers and Tibetians. Not to mention that they're not Han or part of the One China concept. All this would make it unlikely that they would take them on.
> 
> 
> 
> See above.


 

Well if/when the regime there collapses it'll either be war as a dying gasp from a failed regime, or a takeover of a country by it's bigger, stronger ally to keep other regional powers away from their borders. Least that's how I see it.


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## SpitfireV (May 29, 2012)

It won't collapse. There might be a small civil war but it would be short and brutal. And a China ally would be guaranteed to win.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (May 30, 2012)

Civil war I can see, though sadly it would probably like you said be brutal and end up pretty much destroying the N.Korean country/people. If we didn't have to worry about China reacting badly I'd say we help those people, though sadly many might not want helping due to decades of brainwashing. I've read lots on the history of that place and stories from people who escaped, it truly makes you appreciate living in a country like the US no matter how dumb our politics/laws can be sometimes.


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## Salt USMC (May 31, 2012)

The North Korean state failing is something I am legitimately worried about.  Don't get me wrong, Juche is stupid as hell and the people deserve better, but what happens when that whole apparatus collapses?  What does re-unification mean for South Korea?  About 25 million uneducated, malnourished, largely unskilled refugees with no infrastructure to support them.  Unless South Korea has a giant, massively expensive social program in place to re-integrate North Koreans into modern society, you're going to have them living as second-class citizens in basically every surrounding country.  All that will be available to them is menial labor, prostitution and crime.  There's already a huge problem with human trafficking of refugees in China, and they only have approx. 11,000 refugees.  Bump that number up a few times and you can imagine what the situation will be like then. If the refugees stay in the former NK territory, what is there to support them?  Billions will need to be invested to bring the standards of living up to modern levels.  It will take generations to bring the North Koreans up to same education and cultural level as their southern brethren.  It is fortunate that they are ethnically homogenous and the language (I have heard) hasn't deviated too much, though this could've easily occurred in the 60+ years since the country separated.

I sure hope South Korea, and the international community at large, has a plan for dealing with this.


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## JBS (May 31, 2012)

Their medical system will get swamped, there will be homelessness in the cities of S. Korea like never in their history, and the standard of living will initially nosedive.

However, if managed properly through public works projects, the South could use the decade following such influx as a time of great infrastructure building, and a chance to forge an even stronger nation than ever before. Thousands of miles of new roads built inexpensively, millions of acres of new farms could be created, construction of new buildings, cleaning, renovation of public lands and parks, and greater security could be attained by means of thousands of new recruits.

If managed properly, the humanitarian crisis could be turned into a major win. But it would need coordination at the highest levels.  A sea of humanity can be a great burden or it can be a great resource depending on outlook, planning, and preparation.


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## Etype (May 31, 2012)

SpitfireV said:


> Giving North Korea the paranoid shakes wouldn't be a particularly wise move in and of itself.


We should wait for a nice windy day and do the world's first parachute test dummy HAHO MASSTAC into N Korea. That way our planes would never be in their airspace, and they would have a bunch of convincing chutes lingering in the skies for just long enough to get the whole country's military mobilized to receive the invasion.


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## Etype (May 31, 2012)

SpitfireV said:


> Giving North Korea the paranoid shakes wouldn't be a particularly wise move in and of itself.


We should wait for a nice windy day and do the world's first parachute test dummy HAHO MASTAC into N Korea. That way our planes would never be in their airspace, and they would have a bunch of convincing chutes lingering in the skies for just long enough to get the whole country's military mobilized to receive the invasion.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (May 31, 2012)

Deathy McDeath said:


> The North Korean state failing is something I am legitimately worried about. Don't get me wrong, Juche is stupid as hell and the people deserve better, but what happens when that whole apparatus collapses? What does re-unification mean for South Korea? About 25 million uneducated, malnourished, largely unskilled refugees with no infrastructure to support them. Unless South Korea has a giant, massively expensive social program in place to re-integrate North Koreans into modern society, you're going to have them living as second-class citizens in basically every surrounding country. All that will be available to them is menial labor, prostitution and crime. There's already a huge problem with human trafficking of refugees in China, and they only have approx. 11,000 refugees. Bump that number up a few times and you can imagine what the situation will be like then. If the refugees stay in the former NK territory, what is there to support them? Billions will need to be invested to bring the standards of living up to modern levels. It will take generations to bring the North Koreans up to same education and cultural level as their southern brethren. It is fortunate that they are ethnically homogenous and the language (I have heard) hasn't deviated too much, though this could've easily occurred in the 60+ years since the country separated.
> 
> I sure hope South Korea, and the international community at large, has a plan for dealing with this.


 

They had these same legitimate fears when Germany was re-united. I'm not saying it's the exact same type of situation, but if anything perhaps they can adopt something similar to how the Germans were able to do it. South Korea already has govt departments and agencies who's sole purpose is deciding how best to bring about/deal with the ramifications of reunification. The talk of refugee's brought to mind Ghost in the Shell SAC: 2nd GIG (for those that haven't watched it, do so, great anime series).


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## DA SWO (May 31, 2012)

Deathy McDeath said:


> The North Korean state failing is something I am legitimately worried about. Don't get me wrong, Juche is stupid as hell and the people deserve better, but what happens when that whole apparatus collapses? What does re-unification mean for South Korea? About 25 million uneducated, malnourished, largely unskilled refugees with no infrastructure to support them. Unless South Korea has a giant, massively expensive social program in place to re-integrate North Koreans into modern society, you're going to have them living as second-class citizens in basically every surrounding country. All that will be available to them is menial labor, prostitution and crime. There's already a huge problem with human trafficking of refugees in China, and they only have approx. 11,000 refugees. Bump that number up a few times and you can imagine what the situation will be like then. If the refugees stay in the former NK territory, what is there to support them? Billions will need to be invested to bring the standards of living up to modern levels. It will take generations to bring the North Koreans up to same education and cultural level as their southern brethren. It is fortunate that they are ethnically homogenous and the language (I have heard) hasn't deviated too much, though this could've easily occurred in the 60+ years since the country separated.
> 
> *I sure hope South Korea, and the international community at large, has a plan for dealing with this*.


 
My understanding (of the boldface part) is yes, and for some time now.


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## RetPara (Jun 5, 2012)

*Damn....  I didn't imagine this would happen.........    *

*US General Removed After NKorea Espionage Remarks*

http://www.military.com/daily-news/...ionage-remarks.html?comp=7000023317828&rank=1


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## Ravage (Jun 5, 2012)

Talk about loose lips sink ships....


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## Salt USMC (Jun 5, 2012)

RetPara said:


> *Damn.... I didn't imagine this would happen.........  *
> 
> *US General Removed After NKorea Espionage Remarks*
> 
> http://www.military.com/daily-news/...ionage-remarks.html?comp=7000023317828&rank=1


Well, that right there is a big fuckup.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 5, 2012)

The title of the article makes it sound like the guy was relieved, but in the body of the text it says this:



> A U.S. military spokesman in Seoul said Tuesday *Tolley's departure was a routine job rotation and had "nothing to do with" the media report*.


 
So which is it?  Anyone know when Tolley assumed command?​


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## Etype (Jun 5, 2012)

Tolley is a great American.  He agreed to be the fall guy as part of a PSYOP/asymmetric warfare campaign against the north.  Ah yes, it's all falling into place.  The parachute dummies are being rigged as we speak.


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## Salt USMC (Jun 6, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> The title of the article makes it sound like the guy was relieved, but in the body of the text it says this:
> 
> So which is it? Anyone know when Tolley assumed command?​


 
According to this article (http://www.nytimes.com/2012/06/06/w...ced-after-spy-report.html?partner=rss&emc=rss) it was October 2010.  I'm not too familiar with officer assignments, but this seems like it could be either/or.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 6, 2012)

Thanks Deathy.  Yeah, it's kind of hard to say with GOs.  I'd think it would be two years at least, but sometimes joint positions turn over faster.  We had four J2s @ JSOC in less than 4 years, at least two of them are now GOs and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that the others are in the general officer ranks as well.


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## dknob (Jun 6, 2012)

nobody in JSOC is stupid enough to send men over the border in covert insertions via parachute..
hollywood nonsense.


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## dknob (Jun 6, 2012)

Korean reunification is nonsense. Find me one person in the South who wants it. But I'll find you millions of Westerners who love the concept. Ignorance at its best.

Re-unification would collapse South Korea within a few months. 

What needs to happen is for the North to become democratic, end the war, open to the rest of the world, let foreign influence to become a normal thing, and be a player in the Far East politically. And in thirty - forty years they MIGHT be ready for re-unification.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 6, 2012)

dknob said:


> Korean reunification is nonsense. Find me one person in the South who wants it. But I'll find you millions of Westerners who love the concept. Ignorance at its best.
> 
> Re-unification would collapse South Korea within a few months.
> 
> What needs to happen is for the North to become democratic, end the war, open to the rest of the world, let foreign influence to become a normal thing, and be a player in the Far East politically. And in thirty - forty years they MIGHT be ready for re-unification.


 
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15537467

I spent two years in Korea, reunification was definitely something that many in the Republic still seek.  As the article above states though, there is a divide between the older ROKs and the younger ones; the older ones still have people they know in the north, and it's a much more emotional issue to them.  The younger ones tend to be more pragmatic; they don't remember the war, they haven't met any of their family in the north, and to them there have "always been" two Koreas.

Also, the ROKs didn't want to stop fighting their war without Korea being united.  Their President tried several different things to derail the process, including releasing a whole bunch of EPWs that the Communists wanted repatriated.

It would definitely be painful, but I think the ROKs could handle a peaceful reunification.  IMO the ROKs have their act together, and I'm sure there is a plan on the shelf.  Their economy is pretty strong, and I think the US, Japan, China and Russia would be willing to help out (because all of those countries are going to have a massive refugee problem if things don't work out with reunification).


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## Brill (Jun 6, 2012)

dknob said:


> nobody in JSOC is stupid enough to send men over the border in covert insertions via parachute..
> hollywood nonsense.


 
"Oh, I'm sorry.   The correct answer is ... "

;)


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## SpitfireV (Jun 6, 2012)

ROK already have a Ministry for Unification IIRC and, again IIRC, the idea is to first wait for DPRK to be a responsible nation (for once) in the region, improve their economy a bit and then reunify. It could take 40 years. Maybe longer, maybe shorter, who knows? I do think it'll eventually happen. China won't like it much.


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## Etype (Jun 6, 2012)

dknob said:


> nobody in JSOC is stupid enough to send men over the border in covert insertions via parachute..
> hollywood nonsense.


I triple agree with this one.  Parachutes are for airfield seizures.  Boots are for clandestine infils.


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## Etype (Jun 6, 2012)

SpitfireV said:


> ROK already have a Ministry for Unification IIRC and, again IIRC, the idea is to first wait for DPRK to be a responsible nation (for once) in the region, improve their economy a bit and then reunify. It could take 40 years. Maybe longer, maybe shorter, who knows? I do think it'll eventually happen. China won't like it much.


They might as well have a ministry for meeting people from another planet.


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## SpitfireV (Jun 6, 2012)

I'm sure they have an American Embassy there. ;)


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## Etype (Jun 6, 2012)

I'm sure if we found people on another planet, no matter how advanced they are, we'd immediately offer them humanitarian aid.


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## policemedic (Jun 6, 2012)

And milk and cookies.


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## AWP (Jun 6, 2012)

Pardus would offer hand jobs.


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## pardus (Jun 7, 2012)

C....

Ahh why bother, we all know what Im going to say... ;)


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## SpitfireV (Jun 7, 2012)

pardus said:


> Cookies!
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Yes we do.


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## RetPara (Jun 7, 2012)

SpitfireV said:


> ROK already have a Ministry for Unification IIRC and, again IIRC, the idea is to first wait for DPRK to be a responsible nation (for once) in the region, *improve their economy a bit* and then reunify. It could take 40 years. Maybe longer, maybe shorter, who knows? I do think it'll eventually happen. China won't like it much.


 
That's my favorite part...  As the western Germans found with reunification; it's not all it cracked up to be.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 7, 2012)

RetPara said:


> That's my favorite part... As the western Germans found with reunification; it's not all it cracked up to be.


 
The Germans have the best economy in all of Europe, I think reunification worked out OK for them ;)


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## dknob (Jun 7, 2012)

East Germany and West Germany were not as different as NK and SK


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## Marauder06 (Jun 7, 2012)

dknob said:


> East Germany and West Germany were not as different as NK and SK


 
You're absolutely right.  There are scales of magnitude differences in terms of the geography, the size of the population, and the amount it would cost to get them back together.


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## SpitfireV (Jun 7, 2012)

RetPara said:


> That's my favorite part... As the western Germans found with reunification; it's not all it cracked up to be.


 
Well yeah but there's still the emotional element to it and we all know emotions often trump common sense or the better thing to do.



Marauder06 said:


> The Germans have the best economy in all of Europe, I think reunification worked out OK for them ;)


 
The East of the country is still quite poor compared to the West, though. That's pretty natural I think.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 7, 2012)

Good article on the comparisons between the Germanies and the Koreas.  http://www.eastasiaforum.org/2011/04/09/comparing-north-korea-to-east-germany/


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## Etype (Jun 7, 2012)

dknob said:


> East Germany and West Germany were not as different as NK and SK


The average person in E and W Germany both wanted the wall to come down.  N Korea's been isolated for so long, who knows what it's people think.


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## SpitfireV (Jun 8, 2012)

Same thing in many ways. Family ties, etc.


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