# Hell and Back - Special Ops Ranger



## goon175 (Jul 2, 2012)

For those interested, Discovery has a 60 minute special on RASP airing this sunday.... I am curious to see how RASP is portrayed on TV...


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## Brill (Jul 2, 2012)

WTF, nothing about RASP 2?  I smell age discrimination!!!

Nope, that was just the raisins from this morning.  Where's the lighter? :sick:


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## DA SWO (Jul 2, 2012)

Working 

Will try dvr


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## Red Ryder (Jul 2, 2012)

I'll haft to wait till someone (Ravage) puts it online. Strange that there's not even a preview for it.


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## Salt USMC (Jul 2, 2012)

With this show airing and Dick Couch's new book coming out, July is going to be one Rangerific month!!


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## dknob (Jul 3, 2012)

oh wow a show on RASP??? Nice!


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jul 3, 2012)

Good thing I got DVR. Don't wanna miss this but also don't wanna miss falling skies, great show for those that are curious about it. Still, this is gonna be very interesting. Like deathy said combine this with dick couch's book and you got a Rangef packed month! I think someone over at regiment is pushing the recruiting bucks out hard....


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## goon175 (Jul 3, 2012)

I think Regiment has kept quiet for so long, that they are realizing they have an "image" misconception that effects recruiting and accessions. Doing a show like this will probably help that.


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## Salt USMC (Jul 3, 2012)

JohnnyBoyUSMC said:


> Good thing I got DVR. Don't wanna miss this but also don't wanna miss falling skies, great show for those that are curious about it. Still, this is gonna be very interesting. Like deathy said combine this with dick couch's book and you got a Rangef packed month! I think someone over at regiment is pushing the recruiting bucks out hard....


 
Speaking of which, imagine my surprise when I saw that Mr. Couch's book showed up in my Amazon cue today! That's right, the book goes on sale today: http://www.amazon.com/Sua-Sponte-Forging-Modern-American/dp/0425247589/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1341330023&sr=8-1&keywords=sua sponte

To be honest, Im kinda surprised that they're putting this into its own one-hour show instead of rolling it into a new season of Surviving the Cut (assuming there is a new season).


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## Ravage (Jul 3, 2012)

goon175 said:


> I think Regiment has kept quiet for so long, that they are realizing they have an "image" misconception that effects recruiting and accessions. Doing a show like this will probably help that.


 
And maybe, just maybe, lift the 'curse' of the Ranger Scroll vs. the Ranger Tab thingy.

The moment it's on the net, I'll let you guys know.



Deathy McDeath said:


> To be honest, Im kinda surprised that they're putting this into its own one-hour show instead of *rolling it into a new season of Surviving the Cut* (assuming there is a new season).


 
That would be so cool


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## AWP (Jul 3, 2012)

Ravage said:


> The moment it's on the net, I'll let you guys know.


 
Just don't post the link here.


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## Ravage (Jul 3, 2012)

Roger. I'll find a way to reach everyone.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jul 3, 2012)

Amazon has gotten a lot of my money this month already, just bought the gf a new cell phone case, Iron Sky on blu-ray for me, and now this book lol!


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## Brian1/75 (Jul 3, 2012)

Ravage said:


> And maybe, just maybe, lift the 'curse' of the Ranger Scroll vs. the Ranger Tab thingy.
> 
> The moment it's on the net, I'll let you guys know.
> 
> ...


Well, I like how it's titled Special Ops Rangers. I guess there's Rangers and then there's Special Ops Rangers.

Apparently 91/114 of these fuckers graduated. That's kind of an uncanny pass rate.
http://www.soc.mil/UNS/Releases/2012/July/120703-02.html


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## goon175 (Jul 3, 2012)

> Apparently 91/114 of these fuckers graduated. That's kind of an uncanny pass rate.
> http://www.soc.mil/UNS/Releases/2012/July/120703-02.html


 
Yeah...they dumbed down this class for the cameras, that much is obvious from those numbers. Very dissapointing that they made compromises in the presence of the cameras. My brother was two classes before the filming of this one, and they had a graduation rate of 24%...and that wasn't including all the guys who quit in pre-rasp.


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## goon175 (Jul 3, 2012)

That almost makes me want to just skip watching it...wtf.


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## Brill (Jul 3, 2012)

goon175 said:


> I think Regiment has kept quiet for so long...


 
Where are these QUIET Rangers????


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## TCnTally (Jul 3, 2012)

Deathy McDeath said:


> With this show airing and Dick Couch's new book coming out, July is going to be one Rangerific month!!


It sure is. My son graduates Thurs. heading up tomorrow. 007-12 Class!!!
RLTW


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## Ravage (Jul 4, 2012)

Congrats!


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## Salt USMC (Jul 4, 2012)

TCnTally said:


> It sure is. My son graduates Thurs. heading up tomorrow. 007-12 Class!!!
> RLTW


Congratulations!  You must be very proud.


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## TCnTally (Jul 4, 2012)

Absolutely. I can't believe the day is finally here. VERY proud.
And now the hard part begins??!!! Holy crap, I don't know how much more I can take. Haha.
Gratitude to those who serve(d).


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## TCnTally (Jul 6, 2012)

goon175 said:


> Yeah...they dumbed down this class for the cameras, that much is obvious from those numbers. Very dissapointing that they made compromises in the presence of the cameras. My brother was two classes before the filming of this one, and they had a graduation rate of 24%...and that wasn't including all the guys who quit in pre-rasp.


I heard that they would bring the cameras out & setup, then the guys knew they were about to get smoked & the cadre would show up. Thenit would go back to normal(?) maybe the norm wasn't really the 'norm'? How does 110 of 160 compare to the norm? Or 200 if you count pre-rasp?


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## goon175 (Jul 6, 2012)

Typically, 15-30% of those who actually start RASP will graduate. If you include attrition from airborne and pre-rasp, than it is closer to 5%


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## dknob (Jul 6, 2012)

The problem with RIP/RASP is that there is too much of a discrepency between cold/hot classes.
Cole Range for me was a miserable experience as it was in February in high 30 degree weather with nonstop rain on all the days there. The elements drove so many people to quit. I wonder what would have drove the people to quit if it was a spring or fall class?


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 6, 2012)

It's sunny and 75* every day in Coronado...


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## Red Ryder (Jul 6, 2012)

Anyone else think its strange that there aren't any promos to be found online for it?


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## Red Ryder (Jul 6, 2012)

dknob said:


> The problem with RIP/RASP is that there is too much of a discrepency between cold/hot classes.
> Cole Range for me was a miserable experience as it was in February in high 30 degree weather with nonstop rain on all the days there. The elements drove so many people to quit. I wonder what would have drove the people to quit if it was a spring or fall class?


Is there a lot of heat casualties in the summer months?


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## dknob (Jul 6, 2012)

I have no idea. i doubt it - being a heat casualty sticks with you for life and prohibits you from going through specific training in the future.
It's serious business. Guys might get hot and pass out or whatever, but if heat exhaustion or heat stroke went on during RIP in the summer then RIP would have been completely overhauled.


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## dknob (Jul 6, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> It's sunny and 75* every day in Coronado...


 NOT the water lol. SEALs may enjoy that SoCal weather. But that water temp never changes.


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## goon175 (Jul 6, 2012)

We had two guys go down with heat exhaustion on the road march when I was in RIP. It should also be noted that their is a big difference between heat exhaustion and heat stroke. I don't think it is common place in RASP, as I know they put a lot of effort into keeping it from happening, but I have to assume that given the rigorous nature of RASP and the heat of Ft. Benning, that it probably happens every now and again- just as it does in battalion or any other unit in the army.


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## Brill (Jul 6, 2012)

dknob said:


> NOT the water lol. SEALs may enjoy that SoCal weather. But that water temp never changes.


 
Any Scout Swimmers on the board?


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## Brian1/75 (Jul 6, 2012)

I went through Aug-Sept. We had one guy go down with heat stroke in our 6 mile road march. He was going to get chaptered out of the Army from what the cadre told us. We still only graduated a little over a 1/3 of the class.


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## CDG (Jul 6, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> It's sunny and 75* every day in Coronado...


 
Yeah, and the water is 55.


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## Red Ryder (Jul 7, 2012)

CDG said:


> Yeah, and the water is 55.


That water is damn cold! Only time I went in over my waist was after jogging at Torrey Pines and I didn't last long!


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## Red Ryder (Jul 7, 2012)

goon175 said:


> We had two guys go down with heat exhaustion on the road march when I was in RIP. It should also be noted that their is a big difference between heat exhaustion and heat stroke. I don't think it is common place in RASP, as I know they put a lot of effort into keeping it from happening, but I have to assume that given the rigorous nature of RASP and the heat of Ft. Benning, that it probably happens every now and again- just as it does in battalion or any other unit in the army.


Thanks for the info. I wasn't area of the major difference between exhaustion and stroke, learn something new everyday. Ive always done better in cold weather as apposed to hot and its been difficult running during this heat wave.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (Jul 7, 2012)

goon175 said:


> We had two guys go down with heat exhaustion on the road march when I was in RIP. It should also be noted that their is a big difference between heat exhaustion and heat stroke. I don't think it is common place in RASP, as I know they put a lot of effort into keeping it from happening, but I have to assume that given the rigorous nature of RASP and the heat of Ft. Benning, that it probably happens every now and again- just as it does in battalion or any other unit in the army.


 
2/1 when I was at Pendleton had multiple guys go down during a march in the middle of a unseasonable warm spring day. I was on regimental officer of the day duty at the time and went into their BAS nearby, looked like a damn IED had gone off. Guys laying all over the place, a Navy Corpsman with a sprained ankle, two guys stripped with ice packs on their bodies, and one guy being taken away with ambulance from heat stroke (turned out later he had kidney damage). Heat stroke is no joke and is a career killer and a major health concern when working in the military (unless your a bastard lucky enough to live in a temperate climate year round).


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 7, 2012)

CDG said:


> Yeah, and the water is 55.


That's like bath water, right?


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 8, 2012)

goon175 said:


> Yeah...they dumbed down this class for the cameras, that much is obvious from those numbers. Very dissapointing that they made compromises in the presence of the cameras. My brother was two classes before the filming of this one, and they had a graduation rate of 24%...and that wasn't including all the guys who quit in pre-rasp.


 
This is not true. My buddy who was NCOIC of RASP at the time attests that the course was not churched up for the camera. The low attrition rates are now more common due to a more vigorous weeding out process that occurs throughout basic, airborne school, and pre-RASP, with ranger liasons at each stage rather than at the end of airborne as we knew it. It's not so much that they're letting everyone in as much as the fact that the right people are attending. Most of the drop outs are due to medical reasons or failing an event than from quitting.


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## goon175 (Jul 8, 2012)

deleted


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## goon175 (Jul 8, 2012)

I respect your sources view on this, but my sources tell a different story.


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## AWP (Jul 8, 2012)

OppressorsBeware, please an Intro in the correct subforum before posting again.
Thank you.


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## Templar (Jul 8, 2012)

OppressorsBeware said:


> This is not true. My buddy who was NCOIC of RASP at the time attests that the course was not churched up for the camera. The low attrition rates are now more common due to a more vigorous weeding out process that occurs throughout basic, airborne school, and pre-RASP, with Ranger liasons at each stage rather than at the end of airborne as we knew it. It's not so much that they're letting everyone in as much as the fact that the right people are attending. Most of the drop outs are due to medical reasons or failing an event than from quitting.


 
I have no room to talk on this topic at all, but I would like to point out what Jack Murphy wrote in his article on sofrep.com.

"Something changed with RASP class 5-12. In the class that the Discovery Channel filmed, 20 RASP students failed Land Nav and still graduated. 7 students were caught drinking and still graduated. A student received 90% negative peer reviews and still graduated. Since class 5-12, graduation rates have continued to be abnormally high with upwards to 130 students graduating per class."

"Over a dozen RASP graduates from class 5-12 are already being or have been RFS’ed but it will take years for NCO’s to shovel all of the dead weight out the door."

Read more: http://sofrep.com/9028/why-are-standards-plummeting-in-the-ranger-assessment-and-selection-program/#ixzz205ml5x3T​ 

​


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 9, 2012)

Templar said:


> I have no room to talk on this topic at all, but I would like to point out what Jack Murphy wrote in his article on sofrep.com.
> 
> "Something changed with RASP class 5-12. In the class that the Discovery Channel filmed, 20 RASP students failed Land Nav and still graduated. 7 students were caught drinking and still graduated. A student received 90% negative peer reviews and still graduated. Since class 5-12, graduation rates have continued to be abnormally high with upwards to 130 students graduating per class."
> 
> ...


 
My source was the NCOIC of the course at the time of filming. I can't personally speak to the verity of that article, but I'm sure he'll mention something to me about it next time I'm in contact with him. Additionally, as I am no longer at the Regiment, I can't speak intelligently about the 'slipping standards of RASP,' but I have a number of close friends, some at 1st, some at 2nd, some at Benning. All have said they felt the unit is universally improving across the board. I haven't heard any complaints about the quality of the guys they've been getting from the ROC nor have they made any statements that led me to believe the Regiment is on a downturn, especially in this cutback era, where the slightest infraction in the regular Army is getting guys chaptered.


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 9, 2012)

Here's my buddy's response to the article: 

"That article really pissed me off. Everyone wants to see 200 start and 20 finish because that makes them feel "Special". Well being a good Ranger is what made me "Special". Having good leaders is what makes us "Special". I am curious to​ know when the writer graduated rip. Here is the part that the writer failed to mention. First, so called PFC A graduated from RIP meaning that RIP was not in any way developing great Rangers. Second, the RFS numbers speak for themselves. A high percentage of all RIP graduates were RFS'ed within two years for one reason or the other. There has only been a handful of RFS's that RASP has produced. By the way RASP has been around for nearly two years now. Thirdly, this whole article reeks of "I was in the last hard RIP class." The writer does not understand the big picture. The big picture is not about numbers. It is about having the right person in the right spot. Pre-RASP is an awesome program and it does a lot more than raise the graduating rate by 10% (on the high end). Here is another part that the writer failed to include: how many people quit Pre-RASP on a daily basis. I can't even count how many times I would call Pre-RASP and ask them about how many guys is RASP picking up for the next class and they would say, "X number just quit today and 17 out the 40 airborne students we picked up today quit."​ 
I think there's a great deal of truth here. People get wrapped up in the numbers all in the name of perception. Just because they're not eliminating 90 percent in the course like when we went through doesn't mean that the Regiment isn't elite anymore or that a superior product isn't being produced by the school house. The critical end state should be that the Regiment receives the best young soldiers possible that will be molded into outstanding leaders, and continue to take the fight to our enemies doorsteps, not how warm and fuzzy we former Rangers feel to have been a part of a club that's more exclusive than all the other clubs. What good does it do the Regiment to send 10 dudes to a battalion out of which 6 will get RFS'd within a year? Why not just take 20 guys that will be successful, guys that will definitely be assets to the unit? Seems to be a more sensible strategy to me. I imagine if you take all the Basic, Airborne, and Pre-RASP dropouts, then the numbers will still levitate around 90 percent attrition.​


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## Templar (Jul 9, 2012)

OppressorsBeware said:


> Here's my buddy's response to the article:
> 
> "That article really pissed me off.
> Everyone wants to see 200 start and 20 finish because that makes them feel "Special". Well being a good Ranger is what made me "Special". Having good leaders is what makes us "Special". I am curious to​ know when the writer graduated rip. Here is the part that the writer failed to mention. First, so called PFC A graduated from RIP meaning that RIP was not in any way developing great Rangers. Second, the RFS numbers speak for themselves. A high percentage of all RIP graduates were RFS'ed within two years for one reason or the other. There has only been a handful of RFS's that RASP has produced. By the way RASP has been around for nearly two years now. Thirdly, this whole article reeks of "I was in the last hard RIP class." The writer does not understand the big picture. The big picture is not about numbers. It is about having the right person in the right spot. Pre-RASP is an awesome program and it does a lot more than raise the graduating rate by 10% (on the high end). Here is another part that the writer failed to include: how many people quit Pre-RASP on a daily basis. I can't even count how many times I would call Pre-RASP and ask them about how many guys is RASP picking up for the next class and they would say, "X number just quit today and 17 out the 40 airborne students we picked up today quit."​
> I think there's a great deal of truth here. People get wrapped up in the numbers all in the name of perception. Just because they're not eliminating 90 percent in the course like when we went through doesn't mean that the Regiment isn't elite anymore or that a superior product isn't being produced by the school house. The critical end state should be that the Regiment receives the best young soldiers possible that will be molded into outstanding leaders, and continue to take the fight to our enemies doorsteps, not how warm and fuzzy we former Rangers feel to have been a part of a club that's more exclusive than all the other clubs. What good does it do the Regiment to send 10 dudes to a battalion out of which 6 will get RFS'd within a year? Why not just take 20 guys that will be successful, guys that will definitely be assets to the unit? Seems to be a more sensible strategy to me. I imagine if you take all the Basic, Airborne, and Pre-RASP dropouts, then the numbers will still levitate around 90 percent attrition.​


 
Like I said I can't comment on any of this, just trying to point out a former Rangers point of view on the situation. I'm sure Jack would respond if your friend emailed him or commented on sofrep.com. Would make for a good conversation I bet.


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## dknob (Jul 9, 2012)

TCnTally said:


> It sure is. My son graduates Thurs. heading up tomorrow. 007-12 Class!!!
> RLTW


 can you ask him what the final numbers were? Pre RASP starters, RASP candidates, and then finally Ranger graduates.


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 9, 2012)

Interesting comments but I think some of them are out of context and/or based on a failure to understand what I wrote.  For instance, I pointed out that the standards were lowered previously with RIP and it led to poor performers filling the ranks in the Ranger Regiment and I give an example of what that looks like and why it is dangerous.  My point was that we have previous experience with lowering standards and should learn from it.  It wasn't right for RIP and it isn't right for RASP.  In no shape or form was I placing RIP up on a pedestal and tearing down RASP.  Everyone I talk to thinks that RASP is a much better program than RIP and I agree.

You can point out to your friend that I graduated RIP on June 20th, 2003.  Questioning people's professional credentials because you disagree with them is a really cheap rhetoric technique.

My information is that pre-RASP consists of PT, some admin, and that the Soldiers are released by lunch in most cases.  Is this information incorrect?  Are they given formal blocks of instruction that give them a leg up during RASP, such as Land Navigation and medical training?  From what I understand, Pre-RASP does not sound that different than RIP hold.  I understand that a lot of people quit pre-RASP just as they would quit in RIP hold.  You could factor this into over all attrition rates I suppose but I don't see how it makes a difference here.

As far as the numbers game, I've seen it all before.  There are tons of excuses used to get those graduation numbers up.  One of the ones I saw was in the Q-Course where they introduced the "whole man" concept.  The idea was that the whole man is evaluated throughout the duration of the course.  No single event is pass/fail in this instance.  In other words, this is a Power Point commando manner of saying that there are no real standards and that you can fail any event and still graduate.  It sounds like this is what is happening to RASP.  Does the NCOIC have any comment about the students who failed Land Navigation but still graduated?  Is it now like Basic Training and the idea is that they will just learn it when they get to their unit?  What about the dude who got 90% peers and graduated? 

I respect the opinions of others, but this one clashes greatly with what I've been told.


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## AWP (Jul 9, 2012)

Templar said:


> I have no room to talk on this topic at all, but...


 


Templar said:


> Like I said I can't comment on any of this...


 
Do you have any idea how ridiculous this sounds? You throw out a disclaimer and then speak from a position of authority based on something you read? All of this with zero time in uniform?

AND the author of the article you are quoting is a member here?

Stop now while you are ahead.


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## Brill (Jul 9, 2012)

Watched the show and found myself actually getting pissed at the lack of maturity and CF that ensued when things devolved to mob rule.  I'm old and cranky though.


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## 18C4V (Jul 9, 2012)

I watched the show and I see that the ALICE ruck is making a come back along with the L shaped flash light. Interesting that parts of SFAS Team week is in RSAP or some of the events were team events that I did in Team Week were in RSAP.  I definately liked the intro to mechanical, thermal, ballistic, and explosive breaching and the final event of the breaching exam. Obviously the BTI doors don't acurately reflect what  really happens when you do live breaching with ballistic and explosives. (yes, I'm a Master Breacher).


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## goon175 (Jul 9, 2012)

Yeah, the 75th has never abandoned the alice pack, we never got issued the new army one b/c they suck.

They get a good intro to breaching, shooting, driving, medical etc., enough of a foundation to build on when they get to their batt. Usually guys will go to master breacher once they are senior e-4's or e-5's.


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## 18C4V (Jul 9, 2012)

Whey did they start using Shields? I wonder which LEA had influence on that.


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## goon175 (Jul 9, 2012)

its only a safety precaution in rasp, they don't do that in batt.


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## goon175 (Jul 9, 2012)

Ok, just got off the phone with someone currently in pre-rasp. He said that they attended the last graduation, and they graduated 112 out of 163. He also said their basic pre-rasp daily schedule is formation at 0545, PT, breakfast, some days admin, some days they get some classes (7-8 type stuff), and then usually released shortly after lunch. He said that he thinks they just recently started giving classes because all the recycles waiting for the next class said they didn't get these classes. He said it basically happens whenever their are spare cadre, and they only get maybe a couple classes per week. As far as attrition in pre-rasp, he said they lose about 2-3 people per week, but they are coming up on a block leave period, and a bunch of the guys he is with are planning on quitting after they get back from that (they don't want to go world wide and not get the leave time). He said they still do the RSAE (swim eval) in RASP, but it is no longer a go/no go event where as it used to be the source of some attrition. He said 1/3 of the guys in pre-rasp right now cant pass the 5 mile standard run, and alot of the guys can barely meet big army minimums on the PT test, which is the pre-req to start RASP.


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 9, 2012)

JackMurphyRGR said:


> Interesting comments but I think some of them are out of context and/or based on a failure to understand what I wrote. For instance, I pointed out that the standards were lowered previously with RIP and it led to poor performers filling the ranks in the Ranger Regiment and I give an example of what that looks like and why it is dangerous. My point was that we have previous experience with lowering standards and should learn from it. It wasn't right for RIP and it isn't right for RASP. In no shape or form was I placing RIP up on a pedestal and tearing down RASP. Everyone I talk to thinks that RASP is a much better program than RIP and I agree.
> 
> You can point out to your friend that I graduated RIP on June 20th, 2003. Questioning people's professional credentials because you disagree with them is a really cheap rhetoric technique.
> 
> ...


 

You should speak to my friend directly. If you PM me I can give you his information if you're interested. That said, he was directly involved at RASP for several years. If he saw discrepancies with the program I feel that he and my other friends who have served as cadre at the ROC would have made this known to me. I have heard rumblings of discontent with the manner RIP was conducted in previous years, but not since the inception of RASP. Have you been involved as a cadre member in any capacity? Have you born witness to dwindling standards in the Regiment as a current SOF guy, or are you reacting to numbers and the way Discovery handled the material? Do you have any first hand knowledge of how RASP is being run or are you keying off of secondary accounts? Clearly, I am biased in favor of my buddy as I know him personally and trust his judgement implicitly, and while your vetted SOF status carries weight, I simply do not know you, no offense intended. I think it may be in everyone's benefit if you talked to my friend. Perhaps something could be learned from one another. Otherwise, best wishes.


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 9, 2012)

Just for a bit more dimension on the issue, the RASP class Dick Couch followed in 2010 in his book "Sua Sponte" started with 160 and graduated 39, more in keeping with the rates most of us RIP-ies remember, dudes quitting left and right at Cole Range, people falling out of the 12 miler like flies to the swatter. Haven't digested the differences nor finished the book, but it's an angle worth addressing. Perhaps someone smarter than me can bring the salient points to light and quantifiably assert that the Regiment is on the decline. I just haven't seen it.


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## goon175 (Jul 9, 2012)

I think Dick Couch's book displayed the best that the RASP program can offer. If every class was run like that, I think every TL and SL in Regiment would be very pleased and RFS rates would all but evaporate..maybe a DUI that gets a guy booted here and there, but some of the other stuff all of us in Regiment have seen would all but cease.


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## goon175 (Jul 9, 2012)

I think we can all agree that RASP is much better than RIP in every facet. It's just in the way that it is implemented that is causing the controversy.

Also, I don't see how the RSAE can be a non-graded event when the Ranger Creed says we can arrive by "land, *sea*, or air"


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 9, 2012)

goon175 said:


> I think we can all agree that RASP is much better than RIP in every facet. It's just in the way that it is implemented that is causing the controversy.
> 
> Also, I don't see how the RSAE can be a non-graded event when the Ranger Creed says we can arrive by "land, *sea*, or air"


 
Indeed, the name is less important than the method. I bore witness to a sea of sub standard Rangers at one point in my time there. It was a strange era where leaders were prohibited from utilizing the tried and true disciplinary methods that had served so effectively in the past but were expected to enforce the standards for a less mature, less competent crowd of new guys than I had seen in my five years there. The issue was addressed, but some damage was done. I left shortly before RASP was conceived.


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 9, 2012)

I have no desire to get into a pissing contest with your friend, however if he wants to write a rebuttal I will be happy to publish that as well and let the other side of the story be told.  Readers can make up their own mind.  I personally saw standards slip during my time in the 75th and in Group.  The article I wrote is based on those experiences as background, the additional information about RASP is sourced from those close to the situations involved.  My reaction has essentially nothing to do with how the Discovery Channel handled the material but rather what NCO's in the Regiment and recent RASP graduates have to say about it, including the class depicted in the documentary.


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 9, 2012)

JackMurphyRGR said:


> I have no desire to get into a pissing contest with your friend, however if he wants to write a rebuttal I will be happy to publish that as well and let the other side of the story be told. Readers can make up their own mind. I personally saw standards slip during my time in the 75th and in Group. The article I wrote is based on those experiences as background, the additional information about RASP is sourced from those close to the situations involved. My reaction has essentially nothing to do with how the Discovery Channel handled the material but rather what NCO's in the Regiment and recent RASP graduates have to say about it, including the class depicted in the documentary.


 
I think a rebuttal would be appropriate. I'll have him contact you if he's interested.


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## goon175 (Jul 10, 2012)

I think that would be great to get a former cadre NCO to address the concerns brought up. The PAO certainly is not doing it.


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## RAGE275 (Jul 10, 2012)

I think the show sucked. That is all.


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## goon175 (Jul 10, 2012)

Word on the street is that the honor grad had a rough day yesterday...


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## lancero (Jul 10, 2012)

It would have really sucked to have had my RIP class documented on a TV show.


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## Ravage (Jul 10, 2012)

Just a heads up. For those who missed it, the show is available on-line.
PM me for details.


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## AWP (Jul 10, 2012)

Ravage said:


> Just a heads up. For those who missed it, the show is available on-line.
> PM me for details.


 
Our members are too stupid or lazy to Google _special ops ranger torrent_?


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## Ravage (Jul 10, 2012)

It's not on torrents.
But as you wish.


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## Brian1/75 (Jul 11, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Our members are too stupid or lazy to Google _special ops Ranger torrent_?


Sadly I tried that a bit earlier including on some torrent sites. Nobody seemed to bother recording this.


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## Lee175 (Jul 11, 2012)

You can Google the show and watch it on YouTube...If you want the link, send me a PM.

Anyway, I personally think the show sucked. I've been told that there are cadre plugged in at key areas of Infantry School & Airborne to assist those heading off to RASP. I never heard of that until a few days ago, but I don't doubt the source one bit. However, I don't know how well that plays in to attrition rate. I also don't know how many people drop out of the 3 week Pre-RASP phase either. Maybe that's where the attrition is? Just need some numbers to work with, so hopefully someone still active in Regiment can feed us the information. Granted they took 8 weeks and condensed it to 45 minutes of footage, I still think there was an injustice done with what was aired.

Overall, I think RASP is a better training model and adds some needed, basic fundamentals for being a Ranger (which saves your TL a lot of headache when you hit Battalion), but you have to ensure the selection is still physically strenuous.  I did not see the physical torment, which was so common in RIP, portrayed on the show; which leaves me to believe it either wasn't aired or it just didn't happen. I'm leaning towards the latter due to the high graduation number, but that's an educated guess at best.

I understand it's not always about the numbers or attrition rate when it applies to being a good Ranger. However, history has proven in every selection process across every branch, that very few people can endure such intense physical labor, hence the high attrition. You want a fucking athlete graduating RASP, someone who can run guns and carry his buddy out of a fight. If you don't have that physical torment during the selection process, then you'll have a ton of guys graduating who shouldn't be there in the first place. Have the physical torment and make sure there are standards in place to assess everyone's competence so you're not just graduating strong Rangers. And how the fuck can you fail land nav, have integrity violations, etc., and still be allowed to graduate RASP and wear the scroll? That fucking blows my mind.

I'll get off my soap box. Look forward to input.


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## dknob (Jul 11, 2012)

The moment it went from an _indoctrination_ to a _selection_; things went to shit.
Yes phase 2 of RASP 1 is a great addition. But that shouldn't even be part of our conversation. Phase 1 is still supposed to be a RIP with a new name. It isn't.

RIP was an indoctrination to the Ranger lifestyle. A lifestyle of pain, misery, stress, and deprivation. When you don't torture the candidates in RASP, how will you know if they can perform on an objective? A 32 minute five mile run time, 2:30 12 mile ruck march, and 300+ PT test, and 5 out of 5 during Land Nav is fine and fucking dandy - but what happened to testing for mental fortitude?


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 11, 2012)

But dude, we evaluate the "whole man" now using modernized training techniques and statistical analysis in order to graduate a better "product"!


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## Lee175 (Jul 11, 2012)

JackMurphyRGR said:


> But dude, we evaluate the "whole man" now using modernized training techniques and statistical analysis in order to graduate a better "product"!


Hahaha....


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## dknob (Jul 11, 2012)

lol I see what you did there..


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 11, 2012)

Where do I fill out my application to be an Army PAO?  I have advanced degrees in bullshitting and shamming so I should fit right in!


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 11, 2012)

Okay. But my question is has anyone here actually personally witnessed a marked decline in the performance of the guys they're receiving lately or us everyone shaking their heads in response to the low attrition of a few recent RASP classes without bearing witness to the actual results? Has anyone here been personally involved as cadre in the program and can certifiably assert it's bulls*** or is this the opinion formed from second hand accounts? I have yet to hear "im still in and all the new guys are all turds nowadays." Because all my buddies on the line from 1st and 2nd batt are saying the opposite. Im not saying im right, but I'm hearing different accounts from the dudes still wearing the beret than from this forum. I just want some more clarification as to where these doubts are rooting from.


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## goon175 (Jul 11, 2012)

My info is coming from the guys who went through the RASP classes in question. I think the overall RASP program has been producing great stuff, I think the lapse in standards has only been for the past few months. I know my brothers class was hard as hell.


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 11, 2012)

See, but that's the issue. The guys in the class don't see the whole picture. They don't know what's going on behind the scenes, the decisions made at the cadre level or why. They're making assessments based off their 6-8 months of Army experience, and almost no SOF experience. I have difficulty recognizing their perspective as more legitimate than the guys instructing the course, and definitely less legitimate than my 1sg/psg/sl/tl buddies on the line who are saying the opposite. As for the issue of so called sliding integrity standards, I can say I definitely saw a number of guys in my time over the years make some mistakes that could have or should have resulted in getting sent worldwide or RFS'd but due to a whole character evaluation were allowed to stay and went on to become great squad leaders. Standards exist for reason, but so do leaders, and people aren't perfect, even in the community. It's easy to take the black and white approach from the!! outside looking in, but that's not the color of the world we inhabit.


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 11, 2012)

I fail to see how morning PT and a couple patrolling classes a week constitutes such a great Pre-RASP program that now only the best guys are going to RASP which accounts for the very high graduation rates.  Is this information incorrect?


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 11, 2012)

I wasn't implying that pre-RASP was the great equalizer. From what I understand, there are a number of other measures in place that mitigate the inflow of acid trash to RASP and to the battalions. I've heard positive reviews from dudes at the team leader/squad leader/psg level say they're very pleased with the guys they're getting from RASP. The guys I've talked to working RASP or recently having left RASP for the line again had nothing but good stuff to say about the way business was done. Until I hear a massive inflow of negative reviews from my buddies who are actually there either at the ROC or kicking doors, I can't buy the hype just yet.


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 11, 2012)

I've heard the same up until the last four classes or so. I don't dispute that RASP is over all a great program.


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## goon175 (Jul 11, 2012)

Agree, I think they have been putting out an excellent product up until these last few classes. The RASP POI is definately the way to go, and the way they were implementing it up until these last few classes was great. The next RASP class starts in August, I have two of my guys in that class, I am going to wait and see if anything changes in their class. Hopefully all this hooplah turns out to just be a minor blip.


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 11, 2012)

Just got a call from a buddy from back in the day and we talked. He's still up at 1/75 in an E-6P slot. He said the newest guys he's been getting are smarter and more capable than what he's historically accustomed, which is a credit to RASP, undoubtedly a better program than RIP,  but also hasn't noticed any downturn in quality in the past few months, which covers the recent classes. Not to say this is a universal, all refuting truth, but again, all of these doubts raised are not substantiated by any concrete evidence that demonstrates any verity, and the closest people to the issue at hand, that issue being the products the school house is sending to the respective battalions, and the people being their leaders, have not sent any negative reviews my way. 

I would have liked to see a high attrition rate on the Discovery show if for nothing else than to demonstrate to the public that Ranger Batt is not a cake walk to get into; any one of us that passed RIP/RASP holds this to be self evident. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, that didn't happen. Oh well. Act of Valor: 1, Ranger Batt: 0. The media impression and public opinion of our organization is subordinate to quality of soldier, and from what I'm hearing the quality is sound.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 11, 2012)

I bet less guys quit because there was a camera there. You don't want to be the guy that quits on national TV.


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 11, 2012)

cback0220 said:


> I bet less guys quit because there was a camera there. You don't want to be the guy that quits on national TV.


 
Yeah and one guy did. I wouldn't want to be him.


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## goon175 (Jul 11, 2012)

Well...everyone knows they send the best guys to 1st batt., so that explains your buddy liking the guys he's been getting! ahhahaha


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 11, 2012)

goon175 said:


> Well...everyone knows they send the best guys to 1st batt., so that explains your buddy liking the guys he's been getting! ahhahaha



Haha! Well even though that's an UNDENIABLE FACT OF LIFE, I have three buddies in 2nd batt, all squad leaders, one of which is in line for his 7 and is former RASP cadre, who all said their new guys were on it. They're off vacationing so I'll have to get back to you on their follow up thoughts.


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## dknob (Jul 12, 2012)

Everybody is confusing the new guys for quality guys just because they know how to use the cool guy equipment, do convoy ops under NODs, and breach doors. Yeah I'm sure they are showing up to Batt more capable and smarter. But until they are proven they can put out when the going gets really tough then I am a skeptic.

Every time I think about this topic I remember an objective we did in Afghanistan in 2005. 3km (if that) offset infil in the middle of the mountains. Our objective was a small village at the top of a mountain. Between us and the village was nothing but terraced fields of farmlands with a minimum of 10 feet between each step.
Those who don't know what that is:






2 platoons, we were 3km away... it took us roughly 5 hours to get to where we were supposed to be. Easily the most grueling experience of my life and something embedded in my memory forever. It was one of the moments where you tell yourself; "if I should quit Battalion, today is that day". But nobody did. I had squad leaders afterwards saying it was the hardest thing they've ever had to do. It was that day that I realized why we are different from other units, and why we have some of the physical standards that we do. I would have loved to see a platoon from the 101st or 82nd try that same endeavor. 

So yeah we are pumping out guys who can breach, bang, and clear a room faster then any other Battalion newbie we have ever had. But do these kids have the intestinal fortitude to complete even the hardest objectives? Could these kids have made the climb to Takur Ghar as the 1/75 chalk did back in 2002? I highly fucking doubt it.

We are pumping out well trained boys when we used to pump out trainable men.


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## Ravage (Jul 12, 2012)

I just want to say: WOW! That must have been a bitch of a climb...


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 12, 2012)

I still feel like we are talking about magic unicorns here.  Graduation rates shot up by several orders of magnitude and we have no serious explanation why this is.  Pre-RASP is clearly not the cause for better students making it into RASP because at least for the last several cycles it is almost identical to RIP hold.  I would be interested to know what other "mitigating" factors are at play but I also have to admit that I'm becoming prejudiced just upon hearing this type of terminology.  Hence, my sarcastic comments about selection above.  We've heard these buzz words before but I will try to keep an open mind.


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## Brill (Jul 12, 2012)

dknob said:


> Every time I think about this topic I remember an objective we did in *Afghanistan* in 2005. 3km (if that) offset infil in the middle of the mountains. Our objective was a small village at the top of a mountain. Between us and the village was nothing but terraced fields of farmlands with a minimum of 10 feet between each step.


 
Uh, prob should have re-checked your grid square...from the looks of it, you guys were in Nepal!  Damn.


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## dknob (Jul 12, 2012)

lol.. thats a generic terrace farming pic i found


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 12, 2012)

I got it. Intestinal fortitude. Fight on to the rgr obj and complete the mission though i be the lone survivor. I don't think that aspect of rangering is at risk. Just because the show didn't film the pt or endurance exercises doesn't mean it isn't happening. Hard grueling pt is a fact of batt life. It is the core of the warrior spirit. It's not going to change any time soon.


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 12, 2012)

And Jack, I'll look into the attrition thing and see if anyone knows at the house.


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## goon175 (Jul 12, 2012)

One thing I am curious about is where all these guys are going? holy shit they are graduating damn near a companies worth of rangers every class! I think I am more curious about that than anything, never mind if they are all quality dudes or not!


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## Brill (Jul 12, 2012)

goon175 said:


> One thing I am curious about is where all these guys are going?


 
USAREC!


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## goon175 (Jul 12, 2012)

> USAREC!


 
hahaha ya got me... although I guarantee there are not too many recruiters running around with a scroll on. I only know of 3 myself. One is a captain now, and he was in 3/75 back in the 90's as an enlisted guy. One is some MSG I ran into while in recruiter school. I believe he was a ranger back in the 90's as well. And then there was one of our dog guys from 1/75 who actually volunteered for recruiting around the same time I did, and for similar reasons (family issues). I wouldn't be suprised if he and I were the only two detailed recruiters in USAREC right now.


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## LOOON (Jul 12, 2012)

I have to say that I was very disappointed in the product that hit my TV screen. Sure, I didn't get the "whole" story blah, fucking, blah, blah whatthefuckever.......

The honor grad would have NEVER graduated in my day. Leave a weapon behind ON FUCKING PURPOSE, immediate boot from RIP. Integrity an issue? Immediately kicked from the course!

If Im mistaken in what I got from the show, Im a big enough man to say "hey, I didn't get to see everything" and "hopefully the unit will boot the shitbags that just squeezed through".

But knowing what I know, Im left wanting......


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## Red Ryder (Jul 13, 2012)

Anyone else notice that the Regiments facebook page is gone?


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 13, 2012)

La Roux said:


> Anyone else notice that the Regiments facebook page is gone?


I thought I couldn't view it because they banned me, didn't realize they took it down altogether!

I have to say, I think that the Regiment and the PAO had to be very naive thinking that they were going to post graduation numbers like that without an explanation and think that the Ranger community wouldn't have anything to say about it...  Our guys are very vocal and after having standards hammered into them for the duration of their stay in the 75th, of course there is going to be some push back when you see an 80% graduation rate.


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 13, 2012)

LOOON said:


> I have to say that I was very disappointed in the product that hit my TV screen. Sure, I didn't get the "whole" story blah, fucking, blah, blah whatthefuckever.......
> 
> The honor grad would have NEVER graduated in my day. Leave a weapon behind ON FUCKING PURPOSE, immediate boot from RIP. Integrity an issue? Immediately kicked from the course!
> 
> ...


 
Between this messageboard, the various Ranger groups on Facebook, my own website, and e-mail correspondence with other Rangers, I have yet to hear from a single Ranger who liked the Discovery Channel documentary.  In fact, it appears to be universally despised, most would like to see it yanked off the air because they feel it is an embarrassment.


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## LOOON (Jul 13, 2012)

JackMurphyRGR said:


> In fact, it appears to be universally despised, most would like to see it yanked off the air because they feel it is an embarrassment.


Yeah, I made remarks on your website regarding the show and also on the 75th facebook page (which appears to be gone now).


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## Ravage (Jul 13, 2012)

Darn it, they used to post some great Ranger pix....


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 13, 2012)

Ravage said:


> Darn it, they used to post some great Ranger pix....


 
That they did.  I'd give the PAO a "sustain" in that block.


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## Lee175 (Jul 13, 2012)

Whether or not standards have legitimately dropped (which could be argued all day) isn't really the issue most guys are having with this documentary... it's the fact that it did a serious injustice to Regiment's image. Regiment is known for extremely harsh, selective training, and accepting men who have integrity.

I'm good knowing RASP is producing quality Rangers. But I also care about Regiment's image in the public. Every Ranger cares about that just like he does his family. Overall I think people are pissed about how Regiment was portrayed in the documentary, which could arguably lead people to *guess* that standards have dropped.

The quality of Rangers graduating may be great. But as I've said before, protecting the image of Regiment is key especially when allowing outsiders to step into the gates and film. How are you going to show integrity violations and land navigation failures pass the course on television with no rebuttal as to why? If there was a good reason for the high pass rate, why wouldn't that be explained? If you have cadre plugged in to key areas throughout a soldiers initial training prior to attending RASP to assist them, why wouldn't you give a brief overview of that? I don't even remember (I could have missed it) them mentioning there was a Pre-RASP in the documentary. They didn't even mention, *on average*, what percentage of people usually graduate in the selection process.

So viewers watch the documentary, and with a complete lack of knowledge on various important topics, think that one documentary wholly displays the standards of the 75th Ranger Regiment. And it obviously did hell on Regiment's image if you couldn't tell by all the backlash...

All or most of us on this board can read between the lines and figure out some shit pertaining to Regiment's current standards and still know Regiment is a kick ass unit. You try explaining all the above shit to civilians and most POGs, and they're all thinking, "really, that's all it takes to get in Regiment?" Hell, a lot people still don't know the difference between tab and scroll, which brings me to my next point below...

You have to dumb shit down for people to get them to understand what it actually takes (physically and mentally) to be a Ranger. This documentary wasn't filmed to show to other Rangers because we already know what it's like; it was filmed to give the citizens of this country an idea of what it takes to become a member of one of the most prestigious units in the world. And it failed miserably and made us look like cupcakes.

Hopefully in the future they'll do a more extensive documentary on RASP, maybe 2-3 parts, and show Regiment's true colors. Oh well on the current one...


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## LOOON (Jul 14, 2012)

Lee175 said:


> Your post


I agree. It's all about perception and the Regiment fucked the dog on this one.


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## TCnTally (Jul 14, 2012)

Perspective from a civilian...I was disappointed also. My Ranger was PISSED. Had a bunch of buddies over to watch it and was embarassed. I don't understand why they toned it down. I'm sure there is a reason and hope it's a good one.

LOOON, looks that way to me but, I'd never say so, hahaha.

Oh yeah, 1st Battalion! RLTW!

And, just wondering why 'Hooaah' is not acceptable with Rangers? so he tells me...


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## dknob (Jul 14, 2012)

this morning at the gym, somebody came up to me and told me they watched the Hell and Back thing. He asked why so many passed..

so embarrassing to have to make excuses for that program


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## TCnTally (Jul 14, 2012)

dknob said:


> can you ask him what the final numbers were? Pre RASP starters, RASP candidates, and then finally Ranger graduates.


 From what I recall, above, 200-160-110.


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 14, 2012)

Dude, I had my mom call me after she watched it to ask me WTF was going on...


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## Lee175 (Jul 14, 2012)

dknob said:


> this morning at the gym, somebody came up to me and told me they watched the Hell and Back thing. He asked why so many passed..
> 
> so embarrassing to have to make excuses for that program


 
One of my good buddies, who was also a little confused with the RASP documentary, advised me to watch the first 10 minutes of Surviving the Cut: Recon Marine. It'll definitely piss you off. They didn't hold anything back on the Recon documentary that's for sure. It's like apples and oranges when you try and compare the two documentaries--and it shouldn't be. That's exactly how RASP should have been pictured, because becoming a Ranger is no walk in the park (the RASP documentary would lead you to believe contrary). To be quite honest, I've seen videos of Air Force boot camp that looked more impressive.  It's definitely embarrassing trying to explain it to someone...


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 14, 2012)

TCnTally said:


> From what I recall, above, 200-160-110.


Correct me if I'm wrong, I ain't no mathlete but isn't that a 55% graduation rate _including_ Pre-RASP?


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## TCnTally (Jul 15, 2012)

JackMurphyRGR said:


> Correct me if I'm wrong, I ain't no mathlete but isn't that a 55% graduation rate _including_ Pre-RASP?


Yup. PM me, there's more...


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## dknob (Jul 15, 2012)

TCnTally said:


> Yup. PM me, there's more...


oh no , there will be no PMs here lol. I want to know as well


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## TCnTally (Jul 15, 2012)

Ok, but if this comes back to bite me in the ass....I'll come looking for you! And I'm told I'm relentless. Oh wait, maybe that was ridiculous.
There were quite a few that skated after failing repeatedly. I heard there were some that stayed that had no business being there from the start. 'shit bags, douche bags, weak, immature', etc. There were some that were good but, didn't make the cut. But of course tha is just one's observation, not a seasoned Ranger. They won't let females in. Lol


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 15, 2012)




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## TCnTally (Jul 15, 2012)

JackMurphyRGR said:


>


I hope that is not for me.....? 
I'm hoping there is a damn good objective for the stats.


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## AWP (Jul 15, 2012)

A quick Admin note for anyone reading this: if you aren't a current/ former member of the 75th or have a blood relative like TCnTally in the same status, then please continue lurking. I'm not calling anyone out, but I can tell that the subject matter has evolved into something which is near and dear to the hearts of Rangers everywhere; they can hash it out without any outside interference.

Carry on.


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 15, 2012)

TCnTally said:


> I hope that is not for me.....?
> I'm hoping there is a damn good objective for the stats.


No, I'm not mad at you.  I'm mad about this situation with RASP.  I recently heard from another current member of the 75th who agreed with what I wrote in that article and says that they are not happy with some of the changes happening right now.


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## OppressorsBeware (Jul 15, 2012)

I agree with the above comments that the show didn't do any justice to the course and if anything makes the Regiment appear soft. That said, the most important factor is quality, so I'm at least hoping the new guys are worth their weight. We'll see in the coming months how the trends develop and hopefully they wont be experiencing another RFS rash like we had in 06-07. Bright side, the lawns were mowed and the gardens were weed free thanks to all the extra duty.


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## lancero (Jul 15, 2012)

JackMurphyRGR said:


> No, I'm not mad at you. I'm mad about this situation with RASP. I recently heard from another current member of the 75th who agreed with what I wrote in that article and says that they are not happy with some of the changes happening right now.


 
1.) Did he indicate what is pushing the "changes?"

2.) Besides a shitty *selection* and* assessment* program, are there other changes (I am afraid to ask)?

RIP's cirriculum may not have been on par with RASP's, but at least there was a "culling of the herd."


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## Lee175 (Jul 15, 2012)

Maybe some good will come out of the documentary... because of all the criticism, maybe Regiment will tighten its shot group and strive to enhance training, standards, and the view of Rangers in the public eye. I'm sure there has to be senior leadership in the command (USASOC, USSOCOM) that share some of these feelings we all have expressed...


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## JackMurphyRGR (Jul 15, 2012)

lancero said:


> 1.) Did he indicate what is pushing the "changes?"
> 
> 2.) Besides a shitty *selection* and* assessment* program, are there other changes (I am afraid to ask)?
> 
> RIP's cirriculum may not have been on par with RASP's, but at least there was a "culling of the herd."


He didn't elaborate.  I've heard about some organizational changes happening behind the scenes, but those sound like they are good changes rather than bad.  

Lee, I hope so but judging from the 75th yanking their facebook page it seems like they are drawing in their turtle head and going dark.  Of course that means nothing really, there could be and I'm sure there are great things happening in the Regiment but the piss poor PR keeps rolling.  Does anybody know of the Discovery Channel Special is re-airing or has that disappeared as well?  I'd support them yanking that shit off the air.  We are all embarrassed enough as it is.


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## goon175 (Jul 15, 2012)

One thing that should be considered:

Comparing RFS rates from one period to another, regardless of RIP or RASP, is not necessarily a good comparison. For anyone who has been in Regiment, we have seen the tied come, go, and come again as far as how easy the CoC makes it to RFS someone. One year its as easy as a SL saying "he needs to go" and then the next year it requires UCMJ, a full counseling packet, a change of platoon or company for the Ranger in question, etc.


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