# LASIK in Special Forces



## CPrice243 (Oct 14, 2013)

So, I come to you guys with this question only after searching far and wide across the internet for the answer myself. Currently, I need glasses to be able to see. I really want to get my eyes corrected before I deploy this coming year so that I dont have to fumble around with lenses while I am trying to do my job. However, I am not 21 yet, and by the time I am 21, I will be ineligible for PRK because I will deploy prior to the 3 month recovery period PRK requires. So, I started looking into LASIK (where they actually cut the corneal flap prior to correction, then lay it back over). 

I know LASIK disqualifies people from a number of things (Aviation, HALO, Special Operations Diver, ETC.) but I can't find a concrete answer as to whether or not it would prevent my from attending Selection and god willing the Q-course when I get back from my deployment.

Like I said, I wouldn't come bug you guys with this question unless I had tried to find the answer myself. I appreciate any information you all have on this. Thanks again.


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 14, 2013)

I would not do LASIK, and I would wait till you get done with a selection and assessment anyways before doing it. Reason being, SOF gets dibs on the list to get eyes zapped, and it's free. I had PRK done at Bragg while in the 75th prior to a block leave, and was only on a "nothing really fun or exciting" profile for my eyes for a couple weeks.


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## TLDR20 (Oct 14, 2013)

I had PRK in the Q course. For free, and I was priority and got it done within 30 days if getting permission. If you have the correct surgery it doesn't disqualify you from anything. If you get LASIK, instead of LASEK(I know sounds dumb) you will be disqualified from HALo, and dive.


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## CPrice243 (Oct 14, 2013)

Thanks for getting back to me so fast fellas. Ranger, I will take waiting into advisement. Only downside is I really dont want to have to deal with the glasses, but that may just have to be the case. Cback, I was aware it was disqualifies me from those 2, which I was ok with as they weren't priorities. Good to know it wont be a DQ from Selection itself though. I take it you both feel waiting until I have the opportunity to get PRK rather than LASIK would be better?


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## TLDR20 (Oct 14, 2013)

CPrice243 said:


> Thanks for getting back to me so fast fellas. Ranger, I will take waiting into advisement. Only downside is I really dont want to have to deal with the glasses, but that may just have to be the case. Cback, I was aware it was disqualifies me from those 2, which I was ok with as they weren't priorities. Good to know it wont be a DQ from Selection itself though. I take it you both feel waiting until I have the opportunity to get PRK rather than LASIK would be better?



Soon it may not matter if HALo is a priority, it is soon becoming a standard part of the Q. Wait until you can get the correct free surgery is my advice.


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## Brill (Oct 14, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> I had PRK in the Q course.



Since it's been awhile, how's it (recovery, current vision, complications or annoyances) been since?


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## TLDR20 (Oct 14, 2013)

lindy said:


> Since it's been awhile, how's it (recovery, current vision, complications or annoyances) been since?



The only problem I have is dryness after I drink a lot of alcohol. I wake up and my surgerized eye, is super dry it is like a symptom of a hangover for me now.


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## x SF med (Oct 14, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> The only problem I have is dryness after I drink a lot of alcohol. I wake up and my surgerized eye, is super dry it is like a symptom of a hangover for me now.


 
Maybe if you didn't pour that really hoppy IPA in your eyes, you'd do better...  just an idea.:wall:


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## Karoshi (Oct 14, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> If you get LASIK, instead of LASEK(I know sounds dumb) you will be disqualified from HALo, and dive.



Isn't that because LASIK cuts the top layer and part of the next layer of the eye, while LASEK cuts into just the top layer? I thought it had something to due with less complications due to removing too much tissue and causing dry eyes or something.


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## TLDR20 (Oct 14, 2013)

Karoshi said:


> Isn't that because LASIK cuts the top layer and part of the next layer of the eye, while LASEK cuts into just the top layer? I thought it had something to due with less complications due to removing too much tissue and causing dry eyes or something.



LASIK cuts a flap, LASEK shaves down the cornea. That is all I know.


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 15, 2013)

The flap has, in rare cases and extreme situations, flown the fuck open.  Obviously not a good thing.


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## MilkTruckCoPilot (Oct 15, 2013)

I can speak to the success of having LASEK done as I had it performed in 2002. I don't know what my vision was but I was nearly blind without contacts/glasses. Forget about driving and if I was just out walking around I couldn't distinguish between who was who. When I was tested I couldn't even see the large E on the chart.  After I had it done my vision went to 20/15 and has remained roughly the same.


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## 18C4V (Oct 15, 2013)

I know of team guys who have done either PRK/LASIK who have no issues with 30,000 k jumps or losing goggles at terminal velocity. I also know of combat divers who have either done PRK or LASIK and have no issues.  The caveat is that like what everyone said..LAISK is not approved for MFF/CDQC and Ranger School.


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## CPrice243 (Oct 15, 2013)

Ranger Psych said:


> The flap has, in rare cases and extreme situations, flown the fuck open.  Obviously not a good thing.



It seems it is settled then  I will just wait and stick it out through deployment. I really appreciate the advice fellas.


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## 1345 (Nov 10, 2013)

Considering you already decided on your vision correction solution, I will say this... I was one of the dudes rocking corrective eye wear throughout the entire Q course.  That shit sucked the day's dick for sure man.  Always fogging up on you for whatever reason.  But I am thankful for my eye wear.  There were many instances where I'd be walking through some shit and a twig would slap back from the dude in front of me and hit me in the face and eyes.  We saw many-a-dude go to med hold after getting whacked in the eye by a twig.  Once you're in med hold, good luck getting out.  So the fogged up gear sucks, but the protection disables that little inconvenience. I'll take a slight inconvenience of fogged up glasses over a 6 month holding pattern for a bum eyeball. Big ass picture, gotta see it all.


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## 18C4V (Nov 11, 2013)

1345 said:


> Considering you already decided on your vision correction solution, I will say this... I was one of the dudes rocking corrective eye wear throughout the entire Q course.  That shit sucked the day's dick for sure man.  Always fogging up on you for whatever reason.  But I am thankful for my eye wear.  There were many instances where I'd be walking through some shit and a twig would slap back from the dude in front of me and hit me in the face and eyes.  We saw many-a-dude go to med hold after getting whacked in the eye by a twig.  Once you're in med hold, good luck getting out.  So the fogged up gear sucks, but the protection disables that little inconvenience. I'll take a slight inconvenience of fogged up glasses over a 6 month holding pattern for a bum eyeball. Big ass picture, gotta see it all.


 
The one thing I had no complaint about Ranger School was the mandatory eye pro wear in Florida phase which saved my eyes more than once.  When I went to the Q, I remember we didn't have eye pro during phase II (SUT).


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## Florida173 (Nov 11, 2013)

PRK or LASEK is the way to go.. I had a buddy that blunt trauma opened up his flap.. 

I did PRK back in 2002 at Ft. Bragg and haven't had any issues since.


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## Johca (Nov 11, 2013)

Go to the medical standards source document, Army Regulation 40-5o1 Standards of Medical Fitness.   Chapter 5 contains:

Medical fitness standards for initial selection for Airborne training, Ranger training, and Special Forces training, and Reconnaissance and Surveillance Leaders Course training
Medical fitness standards for selection for survival, evasion, resistance, escape training
Medical fitness standards for retention for Airborne duty, Ranger duty, and Special Forces duty
Medical fitness standards for initial selection for free fall parachute training
Medical fitness standards for retention for free fall parachute duty
Medical fitness standards for initial selection for marine diving training (Special Forces and Ranger combat diving)
Medical fitness standards for retention for marine diving duty (Special Forces and Ranger combat diving)

There is some inaccurate info being put forth as eye surgery being the cure all to meeting standards.   Most of it deals with there is a limit on how much surgical correction is allowed.

For example Chapter 2 Physical Standards for Enlistment, Appointment, and Induction

(2) History of refractive surgery including, but not limited to: Lamellar (P11.7) and/or penetrating keratoplasty (P11. 6). Radial Keratotomy and Astigmatic Keratotomy does not meet the standard. Refractive surgery performed with an Excimer Laser, including but not limited to, Photorefractive Keratectomy (commonly known as PRK), Laser Epithelial Keratomileusis (commonly known as LASEK), and Laser-Assisted in situ Keratomileusis (commonly known as LASIK) (P11.7) does not meet the standard if any of the following conditions are met:
(a) Pre-surgical refractive error in either eye exceeds + 8.00 to - 8.00 diopters.
 For duties such as being discussed here there may be more stringent requirements. For AF Class III flyer waivers some eye disqualification conditions only allow  ±3.00 diopters surgical correction.  The point being made by me is it's best not to guess.
* 
*


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## 1345 (Nov 11, 2013)

18C4V said:


> The one thing I had no complaint about Ranger School was the mandatory eye pro wear in Florida phase which saved my eyes more than once.  When I went to the Q, I remember we didn't have eye pro during phase II (SUT).


Yep still the same way. Optional. No one wears it though until they see a buddy go down with an eye injury. Then for a week the guys will wear them then ditch them shortly after. I was fortunate, all of my Rowe training was in the winter and language all summer. Which made it only slightly less annoying.


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## Florida173 (Nov 11, 2013)

I bet the ophthalmologist on base would know...


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## CPrice243 (Nov 12, 2013)

Florida173 said:


> I bet the ophthalmologist on base would know...



I actually went in and talked to them before I ever posted this. He only knew it was a DQ for MFF and and Diver. He had no idea about selection. But based on what I'm reading, I'm just going to hold off until later on regardless.


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## Johca (Nov 12, 2013)

CPrice243 said:


> I actually went in and talked to them before I ever posted this. He only knew it was a DQ for MFF and Diver. He had no idea about selection.


It amazed me throughout my 23 years of active duty military service and subsequent 17 years of retirement of how little military physicians know of medical classification standards other than the Class I, II, and III standards for flying duties.  Medical prerequisite standards for courses that have such standards are lass known than classification standards.  I posted link to Army Regulation 40-501 for this reason.  BTW this is the source standard for all enlistment and inductions but not necessarily for classification into a specific military occupation (MOS, AFSC, NEC) as each service determines specific occupational requirements.  The Army actually relies more on course medical and fitness prerequistes than on occupational standards.

The U.S. Army Special Forces MOS is the prime example.  All the precise standards are applied to the Special Forces Qualification Course and not to retention to perform Special Forces Duties after MOS is awarded.  See par 5.5 and compare to initial qualification standards.  In considering this perspective awareness is needed to be had that performance of frequent and routine static line parachutist duties, military free fall duties (may change) , and Combat Diver duties has no bearing on award and retention of MOS and to perform duties of MOS.  Also unlike Ranger duties and Infantry MOS the "demand" rating for 18 series MOSs is not applicable.  The reason the military physicians are aware of DQ for MFF and Diver is because of the medical exam prerequisite imposed on persons attempting to get such qualification training and the lack of annual medical exams for retention of MOS or to remain in such duty positions.

The physical demands rating for an Army MOS indicates the physical work requirements of a soldier performing the MOS in a combat environment. The physical demands rating is determined via the military enlistment physical strength capacity test and is designed to assign soldiers to jobs for which they are physically qualified and to allow for the gender-free screening of soldiers.

There are five physical demands ratings that are assigned to Army MOSs.

Light--Lift on an occasional basis a maximum of 20 pounds with frequent or constant lifting of 10 pounds.

Medium--Lift on an occasional basis a maximum of 50 pounds with frequent or constant lifting of 25 pounds.

Moderately heavy--Lift on an occasional basis a maximum of 80 pounds with frequent or constant lifting of 40 pounds

Heavy--Lift on an occasional basis a maximum of 100 pounds with frequent or constant lifting of 50 pounds.

Very Heavy--Lift on an occasional basis over 100 pounds with frequent or constant lifting in excess of 50 pounds.

The January 2013 policy decision to integrate women into all combat military occupations and participation in all direct combat duty assignments/positions caught the Department of the Army with to many standards with all the "i"s not dotted and all the "t"s not crossed.   The Army's recent student prerequisite changes illustrate this.

1. Students will be tested on the flexed-arm hang.  The student must maintain the flexed-arm position for at least 10 seconds to be admitted into the course.
2.  Applicants must be able to complete a 5-mile run within 45 minutes 30 days prior to the class start date.

3.  Students must weigh 110 pounds or more.

Several incidents resulted in these "course" standards changes.   Course is emphasized as the performance combat assault necessities are not addressed.    The flexed-arm hang requirement was driven by lack of upper body strength being causal for several mid air collision resulting from parachutes lacking the strength endurance need to  pull risers for slip maneuvering - especially trying to avoid collisions.    The must weigh 110 pounds or more was driven by a female parachutist using the T-11 canopy lacking body weight combined with lacking upper body strength that she could not or couldn't continue to slip dump air resulting in her rate of descent being so slow that she landed 1.5 miles off the DZ  and from other jumpers into the trees.

The mass tactical parachute assault is dependent on all parachutist having the same relative rate of descent under canopy.  This can be compensated by adding more weight to the lighter jumpers, but this unfortunately requires greater upper body strength for the lower body weight parachutist with more equipment weight to riser pull, air slip maneuver the non-steerable MC-1, T-11 canopy.


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## suaveflooder (Aug 13, 2018)

First off, I’m sorry to bump an older thread, but I’m not finding an answer, even from MEPS doctors. 

Are there any updates on this with blade-less LASIK, vs the traditional LASIK that everyone refers to that uses a blade now that time has gone on?  I’ve been doing reasearch and asking around and the docs still don’t know.  I went through MEPS today and the two doctors I talked to had no idea.

I had blade-less LASIK done 8 years ago with no complications. 

I’ve read the information articles from LASIK doctors and they said the flap DOES heal and any damage that would open the flap would have caused would have lacerated the cornea anyway and would have needed surgery to fix.  This was out of 100,000 surgeries and it was the only one he had ever seen.  He had seen consistent hits to the eyes including kicks, knees, kicks, elbows, scratching, tennis balls to the eye, etc....

That being said, it does not mean the military buys it.  Any new information would be great.  My recruiter didn’t know, the guys who checked my eyes today said he wasn’t sure, just knew PRK was more popular with SF, and the doctors straight up told me that they had no idea what the standards were currently.


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## EsotericRefuse (Aug 23, 2018)

I'm in school with a SORB recruiter right now, I'll ask him tomorrow and get back to you with an answer when I get one.


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## EsotericRefuse (Aug 26, 2018)

It turns out that the guy in my class is an AGR recruiter, and didn't have any experience with SOF contracts. His advice was just to disclose which procedure you had done and request a waiver if necessary. The next fiscal year is coming up soon, so there should be plenty of waivers available.


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## suaveflooder (Aug 26, 2018)

EsotericRefuse said:


> It turns out that the guy in my class is an AGR recruiter, and didn't have any experience with SOF contracts. His advice was just to disclose which procedure you had done and request a waiver if necessary. The next fiscal year is coming up soon, so there should be plenty of waivers available.



Thank you for checking in on that!  I just talked to one of my buddies that was selected and he said pretty much the same thing!  Good to hear it coming from multiple people.  Again, thank you


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## TheReal0651 (Nov 5, 2018)

So, just my .02, but the whole myth that you have to be 21 to get PRK is not true. I was in the Marines active duty and got the operation done at Fort Belvoir in NOVA when I was 20. Everyone told me that I couldn't get PRK until I was 21 and that I couldn't go SOF if I got LASIK but I just wanted to confirm that neither of these are true (in MARSOC). There is a small risk that your LASIK scars can be reopened if you are hit in the eye or if you experience extreme pressure changes (due to quickly descending altitude or depth) but this is extremely unlikely. I would try and get it done ASAP because it is really hard to find time to get those surgeries done once you get to a team. Most of your time will be spent going to schools and becoming more qualified to help your team out. My advice would be to reach out to the eye surgeon where you want to have the surgery done directly and ask about requirements because there was a disconnect between my optometrist and the eye surgeon and the optometrist didn't even know they would operate on me at 20 y/o. Hope this helps.

didn't mean to bump this didn't realize it was so old but hopefully this still helps someone?


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