# Notre Dame is burning down



## Rapid (Apr 15, 2019)

I find the timing of this highly unusual.

- Easter
- In the midst of a spate of attacks against churches in France
- Renovations only started a few days ago (could be a deliberate attack by someone working inside the contracting crew)

*CATHOLIC CHURCHES ARE BEING DESECRATED ACROSS FRANCE—AND OFFICIALS DON’T KNOW WHY*

https://www.newsweek.com/spate-atta...-sees-altars-desecrated-christ-statue-1370800



> France has seen a spate of attacks against Catholic churches since the start of the year, vandalism that has included arson and desecration.
> 
> Vandals have smashed statues, knocked down tabernacles, scattered or destroyed the Eucharist and torn down crosses, sparking fears of a rise in anti-Catholic sentiment in the country.
> 
> *Last Sunday, the historic Church of St. Sulpice in Paris was set on fire just after midday mass on Sunday, Le Parisienreported, although no one was injured. Police are still investigating the attack, which firefighters have confidently attributed to arson.*



Even this article doesn't convey the enormity of what is going on. In France, three Churches are being desecrated *every single day*.

Anger as France sees 10 Catholic churches attacked in ONE week - 'God will forgive, NOT ME

*Anger as France sees 10 Catholic churches attacked in ONE week - 'God will forgive, NOT ME'*

The prime suspects in these attacks are exactly who you'd expect in a country like France. A lot remains to be determined in the case of Notre Dame, but I have a feeling they may suppress the truth if they feel it could lead to 'civil instability' -- the riots are bad enough as it is.


----------



## Devildoc (Apr 15, 2019)

Ironic that the building saved from destruction by a book in which it burned down, burned down.  Tragic loss for civilization.  Say what you will about those cheese-eating surrender monkeys, they can design and build a beautiful, artistic building.


----------



## Brill (Apr 15, 2019)

Unbelievable.


----------



## LibraryLady (Apr 15, 2019)

I remember walking through Notre Dame and a bunch of other churches all over Europe.

So sad right now.

LL


----------



## Rapid (Apr 15, 2019)




----------



## RackMaster (Apr 15, 2019)

Just read that it looks like it may not be saved.  A huge loss.


----------



## racing_kitty (Apr 15, 2019)

Read somewhere that they were able to rescue the Crown of Thorns and some other artifacts. A little good news in the midst of such a historic loss.


----------



## RackMaster (Apr 15, 2019)

Here it is.

The Latest: Arson ruled out in Notre Dame fire for now

Edit.  Between me copying it and posting here, it's looking more optimistic that they may save some of it


----------



## Rapid (Apr 15, 2019)

RackMaster said:


> Here it is.
> 
> The Latest: Arson ruled out in Notre Dame fire for now



_"The Paris prosecutors’ office says investigators are treating the blaze that destroyed part of Notre Dame as an accident for now.
The prosecutors’ office said late Monday they have ruled out arson in Monday’s fire, including possible terror-related motives for starting the blaze.
Prosecutors say Paris police will conduct an investigation into “involuntary destruction caused by fire.”"_

It's been hours since the fire started and it's still raging. There's no way anyone could come to a solid conclusion one way or another, and they certainly wouldn't be able to rule out malicious intent unless someone directly confessed to having started it by accident. I mean, even they themselves say that they are treating it as an accident "for now". They are literally just trying to placate the masses though. Perhaps it wouldn't be wise to do anything other than that -- people in Paris are pissed off enough as it is.

I'm glad they managed to save so many precious artefacts and other treasures though.


----------



## SpitfireV (Apr 15, 2019)

Get some air mate


----------



## Brill (Apr 15, 2019)

The Guardian has several photos of the fight to save the cathedral.

Fire breaks out at historic Notre Dame cathedral in Paris


----------



## Rapid (Apr 15, 2019)

No need to speak French to understand this:


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1117852138531479552


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 15, 2019)

Probably about damn time the French take back their country... 

Damn shame.


----------



## RackMaster (Apr 15, 2019)

@Rapid and then there is this. 

France jails 'jihadist' woman (22) accused over foiled terror attack in Paris


----------



## policemedic (Apr 15, 2019)

Rapid said:


> _"The Paris prosecutors’ office says investigators are treating the blaze that destroyed part of Notre Dame as an accident for now.
> The prosecutors’ office said late Monday they have ruled out arson in Monday’s fire, including possible terror-related motives for starting the blaze.
> Prosecutors say Paris police will conduct an investigation into “involuntary destruction caused by fire.”"_
> 
> ...



Agree. It’s impossible to have conducted a proper arson investigation at this point.


----------



## Polar Bear (Apr 15, 2019)




----------



## policemedic (Apr 15, 2019)

I’ve seen that meme on Facebook and for the life of me, I can’t see why people think it’s either acceptable or funny.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 15, 2019)

This photo....wow.


----------



## Kraut783 (Apr 15, 2019)

"- Renovations only started a few days ago (could be a deliberate attack by someone working inside the contracting crew)"

Renovations have been going on for 5 years....they just started the phase where there were working on the Spire.


----------



## policemedic (Apr 15, 2019)

Rapid said:


> No need to speak French to understand this:
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1117852138531479552



I’ve been following the Twitter feeds comin out of France. There’s a trend of blaming Muslims, and Muslims posting tweets cheering the destruction of the church.


----------



## Kraut783 (Apr 15, 2019)

Did POTUS really say the should use water drops from aerial tankers? C’mon.....


----------



## AWP (Apr 15, 2019)

- Accidents during renovations happen all of the time.
- Church vandalism in Europe is out of control.
- Of course Muslims will cheer the loss of the church. It isn't like they've claimed "victories" in the GWOT when they had nothing to do with the circumstances.
- Wanna fuel a conspiracy theory? Announcing your prelim theories as facts is a good way to advance the notion.
- There's so much emotion tied up in the loss of this priceless work, I don't see how we can trust (see above) the initial reports. Besides, aren't they usually inaccurate?
- We're kidding ourselves if we think politics won't rear its ugly head. Also, see above.

Ima sit this one out and wait for more info. Maybe some of y'all should too.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 16, 2019)

This just sucks.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Apr 16, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> Did POTUS really say the should use water drops from aerial tankers? C’mon.....



Wet stuff on red stuff works well, no matter the delivery mechanism, bulk has an effect all it's own. Canada's done aerial water drops on major vehicular fires. If you can't attack from the interior working towards the seat of the fire on a large scene,  master streams can only penetrate so far before they don't have a measurable effect...


----------



## Poccington (Apr 16, 2019)

This thread went from zero to "MUSLIMS!" pretty quickly.

Nonsense.


----------



## policemedic (Apr 16, 2019)

Time will tell.


----------



## digrar (Apr 16, 2019)

policemedic said:


> I’ve seen that meme on Facebook and for the life of me, I can’t see why people think it’s either acceptable or funny.



There is some genuine hate for the Catholic Church in our neck of the woods, with predatory behaviour and cover up of same. There's not a lot of sympathy in some circles for this.


----------



## racing_kitty (Apr 16, 2019)

While I, personally, am leaning towards “construction accident,” it really would not surprise me if anyone went balls out against the Catholic Church. Not necessarily of the Muslim faith, but there’s lots of anti-papists out there. 

That said, I’m still leaning towards accident related to renovations. You hear that, everyone????? AAAAAA-CCI-DEEEEEENT. 

SPELL IT OUT, YOU WANKERS


----------



## Rapid (Apr 16, 2019)

First of all, the Paris banlieues are filled with resentful Islamic colonists, who commit arson like it's their favourite pastime. On New Year's Eve alone, French authorities considered it a "success" that only 1,000 cars were torched in Paris -- with a straight face.

Secondly, destroying non-Islamic places of worship is something Muslims have been doing consistently for 1400 years starting with Muhammad himself.

Thirdly, France is experiencing a spate of vandalism against churches. Less than a week ago, another church was set fire to in Paris. The media would _absolutely_ twist the news about something this provocative and potentially incendiary (no pun intended).


So, those three elements make it a completely reasonable explanation to _consider_. I never claimed to have all the facts -- unlike the mainstream news outlets, though they do it the other way round.


----------



## Polar Bear (Apr 16, 2019)

Poccington said:


> This thread went from zero to "MUSLIMS!" pretty quickly.
> 
> Nonsense.


Really? It took 15 seconds of me turning on the TV for the bubbleheaded bleach blond to say all these theories. It only took you about 25 post to try and shame the board because we used the word Muslim. That’s Nonsense because it is a plausible theory.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 16, 2019)

Poccington said:


> This thread went from zero to "MUSLIMS!" pretty quickly.
> 
> Nonsense.


Tell me why it is nonsense. Nonsense would make me believe that it is an implausible  theory, and my understanding of what is happening in Europe right now makes me believe this is actually a very plausible theory.


----------



## Isiah6:8 (Apr 16, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Tell me why it is nonsense. Nonsense would make me believe that it is an impossible theory, and my understanding of what is happening in Europe right now makes me believe this is actually a very plausible theory.



My wife is there right now, she was there earlier in the day.  I think it is not nonsense to think, but my first thought was, "Roof fire, wood scaffold, I will put a lot of money on a fire started by a welder."

FWIW local stations and specialists who went in this morning are saying that they are hopeful that due to the fire starting on the top, that the bottom of the church and the front have more salvageable despite the loss of the spire.


----------



## Gunz (Apr 16, 2019)

Rapid said:


> *...Thirdly, France is experiencing a spate of vandalism against churches. Less than a week ago, another church was set fire to in Paris...*




And in that case it's completely natural, given the jihadist track record, to openly consider the possibility of terrorism when an event of this magnitude occurs.

We've become so afraid of offending anybody, that even on an open forum comprised mainly of military people, it's bad manners to mention the word "Muslim" in the same sentence with a suspicious catastrophe. I think it's a given that we're all aware that jihadist extremists make up a very small percentage of the Muslim population.

Nevertheless, considering the circumstances, it's also a logical and justifiable speculation and deserves to be part of the conversation.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 16, 2019)

Isiah6:8 said:


> "Roof fire, wood scaffold, I will put a lot of money on a fire started by a welder."



We welders tend to start a lot of fire's, so I will say that sure is possible. Not sure why a welder would be working off of wood scaffold, but there is all types of stuff on roofs that are welded these days. 

I'll only say that if this fire was a accident, a lot of people fucked up.  No way a fire should spread like that from an accidental fire. Sparks, slag, overly hot electrodes, you would see and smell that quickly, and who ever is helping should have put it out easy enough with a fire extinguisher. 

The way that roof was engulfed, I've got my bet on arson through an accelereant of some sort. But I'm not an expert by any means and doing nothing but throwing shit at the wall to see what sticks.

I do find the timing and scale to be suspect, especially with the knowledge of past attacks on churches in France and other parts of Europe.


----------



## Isiah6:8 (Apr 16, 2019)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> whole post



Makes a lot of sense and thanks for the explanation, very helpful since that is not my area of knowledge.  My thoughts were due to knowing there is a lot of unskilled migrant labor in that workforce in Europe and what jobs start, or have potential to start roof fires that we see here.  Lower the common denominator, increase the amount of corners cut, tack on a profession, and also throw shit to see what sticks is all I did.  I have no fire knowledge, but I would wonder since the scaffold was wood, if that was enough to spread things quickly?


----------



## Devildoc (Apr 16, 2019)

President of French scientific council with the (French) Heritage Institute says years of inattention and neglect set up perfect storm: 

Notre Dame’s destruction was ‘bound to happen’ after years of neglect and lack of keep up, expert claims


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 16, 2019)

Isiah6:8 said:


> Makes a lot of sense and thanks for the explanation, very helpful since that is not my area of knowledge.  My thoughts were due to knowing there is a lot of unskilled migrant labor in that workforce in Europe and what jobs start, or have potential to start roof fires that we see here.  Lower the common denominator, increase the amount of corners cut, tack on a profession, and also throw shit to see what sticks is all I did.  I have no fire knowledge, but I would wonder since the scaffold was wood, if that was enough to spread things quickly?



Not as quickly as it did IMO, the only thing I've seen spread really fast from "welder caused" fires, have been dry grass in high winds. Not to say that it couldn't happen, just that I haven't seen it. 

If I am in a building, I have safety steps I have to take. Proper ventilation, arc shields and drapes to protect people's eyes and fire retardant drop tarps. Of course that is not always possible and sometimes you just have to do what you have to do. But due to the likely hood of accidental fires, any welder worth his salt is going to take a lot of extra steps to prevent starting a fire and have significant amount of ability to put one out. At the end of the day,  it's our butt on the line for any and all damages. 

Welding is not a general labor type job. Yes any idiot can learn it, but there are pretty harsh testing standards throughout the world, and unlike most other careers, you test at every job you start. Even with current certs, most general contractors will require a specific test per the code that the engineer requires on the prints, especially in structural, oil and gas and anything overhead.


----------



## Kraut783 (Apr 16, 2019)

Ranger Psych said:


> Wet stuff on red stuff works well, no matter the delivery mechanism, bulk has an effect all it's own. Canada's done aerial water drops on major vehicular fires. If you can't attack from the interior working towards the seat of the fire on a large scene,  master streams can only penetrate so far before they don't have a measurable effect...



True, but the weight from aerial tankers would destroy the structure like that. Now, helos with the water drops I can see, but aerial tankers carry anywhere from 12,000 gallons to 19,600 gallons. I think he was just making an uninformed, or flippant, remark.


----------



## Florida173 (Apr 16, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> True, but the weight from aerial tankers would destroy the structure like that. Now, helos with the water drops I can see, but aerial tankers carry anywhere from 12,000 gallons to 19,600 gallons. I think he was just making an uninformed, or flippant, remark.



I don't see why this is newsworthy or why anyone could possibly care. It's arguing semantics with other people that probably don't care except to _expose_ him as ignorant. 

I wouldn't know the difference between an aerial tanker and a helo carrying a tank in the world of aerial firefighting.. but it led me to the wiki page 

Aerial firefighting - Wikipedia


----------



## Brill (Apr 16, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> True, but the weight from aerial tankers would destroy the structure like that. Now, helos with the water drops I can see, but aerial tankers carry anywhere from 12,000 gallons to 19,600 gallons. I think he was just making an uninformed, or flippant, remark.



World leaders are known to say silly stuff.


----------



## Kraut783 (Apr 16, 2019)

Too soon?


----------



## Kraut783 (Apr 16, 2019)

Florida173 said:


> I don't see why this is newsworthy or why anyone could possibly care. It's arguing semantics with other people that probably don't care except to _expose_ him as ignorant.
> 
> I wouldn't know the difference between an aerial tanker and a helo carrying a tank in the world of aerial firefighting.. but it led me to the wiki page
> 
> Aerial firefighting - Wikipedia



It's not newsworthy....it was only my personal statement.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Apr 16, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> True, but the weight from aerial tankers would destroy the structure like that. Now, helos with the water drops I can see, but aerial tankers carry anywhere from 12,000 gallons to 19,600 gallons. I think he was just making an uninformed, or flippant, remark.



Drops aren't in just one go, and altitude plus speed have dispersion effects. The structure is already fucked for the most part anyway.


----------



## digrar (Apr 17, 2019)

Isiah6:8 said:


> Makes a lot of sense and thanks for the explanation, very helpful since that is not my area of knowledge.  My thoughts were due to knowing there is a lot of unskilled migrant labor in that workforce in Europe and what jobs start, or have potential to start roof fires that we see here.  Lower the common denominator, increase the amount of corners cut, tack on a profession, and also throw shit to see what sticks is all I did.  I have no fire knowledge, but I would wonder since the scaffold was wood, if that was enough to spread things quickly?




I'm making a couple of assumptions here, but I'm picking the church has one of the big construction companies and project managers on a job like this. Which if it's being managed properly, would mean properly skilled labour, permits for pretty much every task, permit to work, hot work permit, working at heights permits, safe work method statement for every task, risk assessments, change management, etc etc.
None of which means that fuck ups can't happen, or short cuts won't be taken.

Or it could be arson.


----------



## Salt USMC (Apr 17, 2019)

Florida173 said:


> It's arguing semantics with other people that probably don't care except to _expose_ him as ignorant.


Donald Trump is 72 years old, and a grandfather.  He's also the president. There are times when he posts like a president, and times when he posts like your grandfather.  This Notre Dame tweet highlights the latter aspect.


----------



## SaintKP (Apr 17, 2019)

How many things have we as a species built or created that would spiritually wound the world over if it burned down a century or two from now?


Aside from that, the Notre Dame Cathedral has been burned, damaged atleast a few times since it was first started to be laid down in 1163, it will take a lot more than this to remove that thing.


----------



## Rapid (Apr 17, 2019)

French President Emmanuel Macron says Notre-Dame cathedral will be rebuilt "even more beautifully" - and that he wants the work done within five years.

Rebuilt Notre-Dame 'will be more beautiful'

Get a load of this cunt. It's like he wants to be even more hated than he already is. Best part is he reportedly said it would be rebuilt in a way that keeps in line with our modern, cultural values. Maybe he wants to add some minarets


----------



## digrar (Apr 17, 2019)

Rapid said:


> Get a load of this cunt. It's like he wants to be even more hated than he already is. Best part is he reportedly said it would be rebuilt in a way that keeps in line with our modern, cultural values.



I imagine the Pope sent him a message saying something along the lines of "Settle down knacker bags, we've got this."


----------



## Isiah6:8 (Apr 17, 2019)

digrar said:


> I'm making a couple of assumptions here, but I'm picking the church has one of the big construction companies and project managers on a job like this. Which if it's being managed properly, would mean properly skilled labour, permits for pretty much every task, permit to work, hot work permit, working at heights permits, safe work method statement for every task, risk assessments, change management, etc etc.
> None of which means that fuck ups can't happen, or short cuts won't be taken.
> 
> Or it could be arson.



That’s one of the issues I was highlighting in my assumption, one of the big companies wasn’t awarded the contract. 

Le Bras Freres is the company and they work on restoring historical sights, their other arm Le Bras Scaffolding does what it sounds like. They were awarded the contract over some of the bigger more well known companies. They are claiming none of their people were in the cathedral when the fire was started, so who knows.


----------



## Blizzard (Apr 17, 2019)

According to the report I heard this morning  there were 2 contract companies and neither were doing work onsite at the time.of the fire.  One was doing work completely offsite.  The other had finished working an hour earlier.

Also, report said it took 23 minutes to determine source of the alarm/fire; evidently a remote area of the attic?


----------



## Devildoc (Apr 17, 2019)

Rapid said:


> French President Emmanuel Macron says Notre-Dame cathedral will be rebuilt "even more beautifully" - and that he wants the work done within five years.
> 
> Rebuilt Notre-Dame 'will be more beautiful'
> 
> Get a load of this cunt. It's like he wants to be even more hated than he already is. Best part is he reportedly said it would be rebuilt in a way that keeps in line with our modern, cultural values. Maybe he wants to add some minarets



So I read this in Trump's voice:  "It's gonna be beautiful, more beautiful than the last one, the greatest Notre Dame ever."


----------



## Muppet (Apr 17, 2019)

Who knows what happened. We probably won't ever hear the truth, maybe it was construction issue, maybe it was the "Muslims", who knows. Too early to tell. Fire investigation will take a while. If, if it was a terrorist or Muslim, whatever the phrase is, do you think Macron will even come out to report this? A true shame all around, lots of emotions over it.


----------



## Box (Apr 17, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> So I read this in Trump's voice:  "It's gonna be beautiful, more beautiful than the last one, the greatest Notre Dame ever."




The next Notre Dame Cathedral is going to be YUGE


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 17, 2019)

The Images That Could Help Rebuild Notre-Dame Cathedral

Pretty cool if this can spec out the rebuild.


----------



## Salt USMC (Apr 18, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> The Images That Could Help Rebuild Notre-Dame Cathedral
> 
> Pretty cool if this can spec out the rebuild.


That's pretty rad!


----------



## Poccington (Apr 18, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Tell me why it is nonsense. Nonsense would make me believe that it is an implausible  theory, and my understanding of what is happening in Europe right now makes me believe this is actually a very plausible theory.



What's happening in Europe right now? You can PM me if you want.

Plausible on what basis, given the facts as they were known at the time? Muslims were declared as the main suspects when absolutely nothing else about the event was known other than the fact that Notre Dame was on fire.

Was there anything to indicate it was Muslims? Was there any information available to indicate what started the fire? Any information pointing to arson specifically? Was any information known at the time regarding the event other than the fact the Notre Dame was on fire? In turn, given all of the above, was there anything to warrant anyone being declared as the main suspects?

No, there wasnt. That's why it was nonsense.

It has fuck all to do with being politically incorrect or anything else and everything to do with remembering a time on SS where people engaging in wild conjecture were at least expected to have facts regarding events to back up their assertions. 

I'll bow out of the thread because it's just gonna go around in circles. If anyone wants to continue this, my PMs are open.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 18, 2019)

Poccington said:


> What's happening in Europe right now? You can PM me if you want.


Why would I PM you?  I know you are not naive enough to not know what I am talking about, and I'll be happy to limit the discussion to France.

Tension between migrating Muslims and French citizens is at an all time high, specifically because the Muslim population refused to assimilate into French culture and is instead demanding that France leave them be.  Very similar to what is happening here in the States.

The Muslim ‘Issue’ in the French Campaign

Struggling to prevent terrorist attacks, France wants to ‘reform’ Islam





Poccington said:


> Plausible on what basis, given the facts as they were known at the time?


You want to get into semantics over the meaning of the word 'plausible' ?  Come on now, do you not recall the Charlie Hebdo attack?  The Bastille Day massacre?  The countless stabbings and attacks in Paris alone over the past decade?   It is farcical at best to say that it in not plausible  a fire which caused such damage to that this particular symbol of Christianity.




Poccington said:


> everything to do with remembering a time on SS where people engaging in wild conjecture were at least expected to have facts regarding events to back up their assertions.


Yeah so, last time I checked that is still a thing here.  No one on this board said, "the Muslims did it!"  There were conversations about "what if's", that's what happens on an internet board.  Conversations....if someone claims something to be fact, it takes no time at all for a member or staff member to demand a link; that has not changed.





Poccington said:


> I'll bow out of the thread because it's just gonna go around in circles. If anyone wants to continue this, my PMs are open.


That's your choice not to respond, and I'll bow out too, but you put your thoughts out in the public, I get to do the same.


----------



## Salt USMC (Apr 18, 2019)

Investigators are leaning towards an electrical short being the probable cause of the fire

Notre Dame fire was probably caused by electrical short-circuit, police official says


----------



## Polar Bear (Apr 18, 2019)

Bet it was a Muslim electrician that installed it. Now that is a statement of jumping to a conclusion


----------



## Rapid (Apr 18, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> Investigators are leaning towards an electrical short being the probable cause of the fire
> 
> Notre Dame fire was probably caused by electrical short-circuit, police official says



"A French judicial police official said investigators made an initial assessment of the cathedral Wednesday but *haven’t begun to search its charred interior because of unresolved safety hazards.*

The official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because he wasn’t authorized to speak publicly about the investigation"

Love how this is all based off of no evidence other than this supposed source. Even if the source is real, they can't even go in to conduct a proper investigation yet... so it's literally just a hypothesis.

Of course, the media run wild and declare that "the police" (AKA one supposed cop) think that the fire was "probably" (AKA one cop's hunch) caused by an electrical fault. Strong words for the headline of an article that comes down to a great big nothingburger when you look into it.

Daily reminder that mainstream journalism is dead.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Apr 18, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> Investigators are leaning towards an electrical short being the probable cause of the fire
> 
> Notre Dame fire was probably caused by electrical short-circuit, police official says


If anything, that article raises more questions than answers. Fire starting during the evening mass is sketchy too.  Specifically in regards to the ease in which unscrupulous characters could be able to infil in plain sight, place an incendiary device unnoticed, and exfil with a panicked post-mass crowd.

If something had gone worse, the whole situation could have turned into a mass casualty event. Something just doesn't pass the sniff test.


----------



## SpitfireV (Apr 18, 2019)

Is it the lack of information that's providing a distinct lack of odour?


----------



## Polar Bear (Apr 19, 2019)

SpitfireV said:


> Is it the lack of information that's providing a distinct lack of odour?


Or is it your lack of you living in “The Home of the Free and the Brave” that you can offer up a statement like that? You will never know what 9/11 felt to the United States of America. Until you know what it feels like to the normal citizen,or a veteran. I would keep on keeping NZ straight and quit trying to tell us how we should live.


----------



## SpitfireV (Apr 19, 2019)

Polar Bear said:


> Or is it your lack of you living in “The Home of the Free and the Brave” that you can offer up a statement like that? Yoou will never know what 9/11 felt to the United States of America. Until you know what it feels like to the normal citizen,or a veteran. I would keep on keeping NZ straight and quit trying to tell us how we should live.



I'm not doing that at all. I'm not making any value calls just that there's no information to make a call at all let alone one that can or can't be sniffed..


----------



## Devildoc (Apr 19, 2019)




----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 19, 2019)

I guess when your country doesn't deal with the rest of the world's problems it's pretty easy to sit in judgment of everyone else. I bet if you go ask the random German,  Swizz or French citizen what they think of "Muslim" immigrants, they wouldn't be so fast to defend them. Especially being that all three of those countries took in the masses to turn around and deal with the cultural problems and inabilities or out right refusal of those immigrants to assimilate to national culture and laws. Dealing with robberies, rapes,  murders,  motherfuckers just randomly shitting in public, to terrorism,  destruction of property, etc, etc. 

How many Christian churches have been firebombed in New Zealand or Ireland in the last couple years?  How many mass killings in the name of Islam?  How many rapes and assaults on women? 

You can take your moral high ground arguments and shove them right up your ass. Especially if you ain't got any skin in the game to begin with.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 19, 2019)

*Everybody cool it.  *
*
Personal attacks are a no-go, we all know it.  

What has already been said...has been said.  We are moving on....
*
*Please and thank you.  *


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 19, 2019)

One of the things that annoys me is all the virtue signaling going on by assholes with a platform.  Yeah, people are donating money to rebuild an irreplaceable Cathedral.  You complain about feeding the poor etc.  The Catholic Church spends millions if not billions of dollars yearly through it's charities to feed the poor and provide things like prosthetics, appliances, etc. to the poor.


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 19, 2019)

SpitfireV said:


> Is it the lack of information that's providing a distinct lack of odour?


How about the rush to explain something before the investigation has started? then double down as the investigation is continuing?
If you want to create a conspiracy theory, this is a good way to start.


----------



## Rapid (Apr 20, 2019)

I'll be the first to point out if any compelling evidence comes out to suggest it really was a complete accident, as opposed to an accident that had a little help. In the meantime there are some interesting articles going around in the French press, citing the ex-chief architect of the Notre Dame.

Notre-Dame : après l'incendie, "rien n'est fini" selon l'ex-architecte en chef

*“*I don’t understand this at all. The fire’s spread is extremely curious. With really old oak like that, it’s super hard, so you’d need a lot of smaller wood to first get the fire hot enough for the oak beams to burn.

In 2010 we replaced all the electrical wiring, so there’s no way this was sparked by a short-circuit. We put new wiring in place according to modern standards. And we went even further; we installed state-of-the-art fire protection and detection systems in the cathedral.

At all times, there are always two men on standby in the Cathedral, day and night, to go investigate anything the moment an alarm goes off, then if necessary to call the fire emergency services.

*I am really stunned that this has happened. It’s incomprehensible. *In 40 years of experience, I have never heard of a fire like this.

It would take a really combustible load at the start of such a fire for it to rapidly develop into the disaster we saw. Also, oak is a particularly fire-resistant wood.

*The fire detection/protection system installed in the cathedral was of the highest level. It was a very expensive undertaking, but it enabled us to quickly ascertain whether a fire had started somewhere. Additionally, we had many old wooden doors replaced by fire doors.*”


----------



## Kraut783 (Apr 20, 2019)

There is some talking about issues with the lack of fire alarms/sprinklers....

"But many in France are furious officials did not install a fire system in the roof space which could contained the blaze.
It turned out that it was feared the electricity supplying the sprinklers and alarms would itself spark a blaze. So they were banned. 
Pierre Housieaux, president of the Paris Historical Association, told the New York Times: “There had been a systematic refusal to install anything electrical."

Notre-Dame Attic Was Known as ‘the Forest.’ And It Burned Like One. 

It will be interesting to see what shakes out of all this....


----------



## AWP (Apr 20, 2019)

We need Alex Jones on the case.


----------



## amlove21 (Apr 20, 2019)

AWP said:


> We need Alex Jones on the case.


I’m sure he already is. 

So, why are people donating money to a tax free $30b corporation again? 

I don’t really care to get into ideology here but the Catholic Church is in no way hurting for money to rebuild.


----------



## Gunz (Apr 20, 2019)

SpitfireV said:


> I'm not doing that at all. I'm not making any value calls just that there's no information to make a call at all let alone one that can or can't be sniffed..



Insufficient information at this point to make any judgement call...but we're all free to speculate about possibilities, including terrorism. And given the jihadist track record, as I wrote earlier, it's neither unjust or unreasonable to place it on the suspect list along with other causes.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Apr 20, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> I’m sure he already is.
> 
> So, why are people donating money to a tax free $30b corporation again?
> 
> I don’t really care to get into ideology here but the Catholic Church is in no way hurting for money to rebuild.


Catholic Church doesn't own it, French gov owns it. Separation of Church and State.

Notre Dame fire: Who owns Notre Dame cathedral? Who will pay for repairs?


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 20, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> I’m sure he already is.
> 
> So, why are people donating money to a tax free $30b corporation again?
> 
> I don’t really care to get into ideology here but the Catholic Church is in no way hurting for money to rebuild.


Faith, just like the people who originally built it.


----------



## DocCallahan (Apr 20, 2019)

I’m unsure as to the cause of this, but I’ll keep my opinion to myself, tensions are high anyway. 

Kind of sucks to see all this un rest across the world. 

Being a kid growing up in the era of “insurgency” and “terrorism” it sucks feeling powerless to do anything. Especially as a young guy in a command that prides itself being “in the business of killin’”. Not that I desire to go out and stack bodies or anything, but I sure would like to stop handing out motrin and hand out a little discontent and help provide stability where it is needed. 
Plus the Marine Corps used to be the force that was ready when nobody else was and fought small battles all over the world. 

Guess I’m off topic, I will say I don’t have the information but the way that fire lit up and spread so rapidly definitely would put arson on my mind, but old buildings tend to burn and burn fast. They often catch fire “for no reason”. I have a feeling the official statement will be “undetermined cause” as is the case with a lot of probable arsons. Companies tend to have logs and such and there’s a trail to follow to the cause of accidental fires. Usually anyways. There’s my .02


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 21, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> I’m sure he already is.
> 
> So, why are people donating money to a tax free $30b corporation again?
> 
> I don’t really care to get into ideology here but the Catholic Church is in no way hurting for money to rebuild.



Cmon man. Really?

Now, to answer the actual question _Loi du 9 décembre 1905 concernant la séparation des Églises et de l'État._

In effect seized all major public religious worship centers and made them property of the state.  From Major Cathedrals to Monasteries.  But this did not just affect the Catholic faith, but also Lutherans, Jews etc.  So major Synagogues in France are owned by the State etc.  The idea is apparently at the time with the establishment of "French Secularism" that the government is fully neutral.  There's a whole lot of other stuff in the law, but this is the property issue.


----------



## amlove21 (Apr 21, 2019)

Yeah, tracking all that. Question remains. 

The Catholic Church that runs the church should pay for repairs. They make a lot of money. Why do they need an additional $1B.


----------



## RackMaster (Apr 21, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> Yeah, tracking all that. Question remains.
> 
> The Catholic Church that runs the church should pay for repairs. They make a lot of money. Why do they need an additional $1B.



The Pope needs new gold weave banana hammocks for beach season.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 21, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> Yeah, tracking all that. Question remains.
> 
> The Catholic Church that runs the church should pay for repairs. They make a lot of money. Why do they need an additional $1B.


People are donating the money because of what the Cathedral means to France, not because of what it means to the Catholic Church.  It's a symbol of Paris and of France.


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 21, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> Yeah, tracking all that. Question remains.
> 
> The Catholic Church that runs the church should pay for repairs. They make a lot of money. Why do they need an additional $1B.


That would be were the donations come in.  

Don't see why people get all butt-hurt over how other people spend THEIR OWN money.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Apr 21, 2019)

RackMaster said:


> The Pope needs new gold weave banana hammocks for beach season.


For a sec I almost thought the Pope was Brazilian.


----------



## Blizzard (Apr 21, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> That would be were the donations come in.
> 
> Don't see why people get all butt-hurt over how other people spend THEIR OWN money.


Concur. 

And to take a brief tangent from the topic for a moment, this also touches on an issue I have with leftists, like "Bernie", "AOC", etc...if they want a 70% tax rate, they should start donating their personal finances now.   Lead by example and all that.  There is nothing to prevent them or any of their ilk from donating extra income/taxes to the government and no one should have a problem with it if they voluntarily choose to do so. Yet, they don't.  Why?  Hmmm.


----------

