# Two divers are found dead 300 feet underwater in the 'Mount Everest of cave systems' that has killed



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 18, 2016)

Other than some recreational diving while I was in Okinawa, my experience is pretty limited. Any of you guys ever dive here?

From what I've read, the two who died were not amateurs and were found near each other. Fucked up way to go.

Two divers' bodies recovered in Florida's 'dangerous and complex' caves | Daily Mail Online


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## AWP (Oct 18, 2016)

Not a diver, but found this to be a fascinating story. It goes into cave diving and wreck diving plus a lot of the science behind them. I thought it was worth a read. Very well written.

Out of Their Depth


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## Scubadew (Oct 18, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Not a diver, but found this to be a fascinating story. It goes into cave diving and wreck diving plus a lot of the science behind them. I thought it was worth a read. Very well written.
> 
> Out of Their Depth



Scary stuff.

Have you read Shadow Divers?  Great read if you (or anyone else) is interested in wreck diving. I got to meet John Chatterton, Richie Kohler, and Mike Norwood (RIP) through my dad and they were nice guys.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 18, 2016)

Not my words - but from a poster on another board where they are having the same discussion.  I've interacted with him enough to believe he is not making up what he says.  The few times I tried spelunking I realized the only thing I hated more than standing on the edge of a mountain looking down, was being squeezed into a cave and having to wiggle my way thru.  Under water?  Forget about it!

I don't really know what any of this means, but considering the amount of guys here that are experienced divers, I am really interested in your opinions on this one.
__
_Both guys were pretty experienced cave divers. They were diving Closed Circuit Rebreathers (JJ-RB's, from what I understand, for those that care)

From what I have been told, they were on scooters, lots of stage bottles and they were going pretty far in. When found, one guy was on the ceiling without any gear and all the bail-out bottles were empty. They have not found the scooters or the one guys RB.

Speculation: they did not have enough bailout gas, one guy had issues and the burned through all of their gas on the way out. For some reason there are a lot of RB divers that never anticipate having more than one problem. Both guys were possibly coming out on Open Circuit which caused the lack of adequate back-up gas.

Eagles Nest is not a particularly "tough" cave, very low flow and normally clear, but it is deep, and deep is very unforgiving. And lots of silt on the floor, so one mistake you can black it out pretty quick. I have not dove this cave but I understand it is a lot like Peacock, that I have done.(low flow, very silty)._


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## Gunz (Oct 18, 2016)

This happened about 20 miles from me.

The video has file film of inside the caves.

2 cave divers found dead at Eagle’s Nest near Weeki Wachee


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## DC (Oct 18, 2016)

Cave diving is no joke. Redundancy and keen nav skills are required. I still don't understand the logic. No lobster or fish to shoot.


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## Grunt (Oct 18, 2016)

DC said:


> Cave diving is no joke. Redundancy and keen nav skills are required. I still don't understand the logic. No lobster or fish to shoot.



Humans have an innate desire to explore. It's one of the things that have made us successful. The only logic needed is that they "haven't been there before."


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## DC (Oct 18, 2016)

BTDT myself. Made some dives for exploratory sake that were inherently dangerous. To each his own. Condolences to the families of these divers. Sad day.


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## CDG (Oct 18, 2016)

Agoge said:


> Humans have an innate desire to explore. It's one of the things that have made us successful. The only logic needed is that they "haven't been there before."



"Because it's there."
-George Mallory


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## Grunt (Oct 18, 2016)

CDG said:


> "Because it's there."
> -George Mallory



Very true, indeed!


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 18, 2016)

There are well known dangers of high altitude climbing. Once you climb above 8,000 meters, your body begins to die. Even with bottled oxygen, you are still dying. The reason is the partial pressure of oxygen is not enough to supply oxygen to all the bodies tissues. To survive you need a pressure suit. For safe high altitude climbs, you need a base camp to make decisions for climbers, and the climbers need to do as they are told. Brain swelling, and pulmonary edema will happen to everyone if they stay above 8,000 meters long enough.

I am not a deep water diver. My dives were all made in chamber rides for medical reasons, Medical Hyperbaric Chamber Dives.  The risks at depth are the opposite of high altitude climbs. At depth, the partial pressure of inhaled gasses climbs. The greater the partial pressure is, the more inhaled gases will be dissolved by force, into the circulating blood serum. The first worry is Nitrogen that is found in compressed air. With the increased partial pressure of the nitrogen in common air supply, the result is nitrogen narcosis. The result is like drinking a bottle of Bushmills on the way down, and it can kill you. Deeper down, Oxygen itself becomes a problem. As the partial pressure of Oxygen rises, so does the risk of Oxygen reaching toxic levels. The most common result is Gran Mal Seizures. Every dive I went on was with patients on oxygen, and the worry was always toxic levels of Oxygen. We had all decisions made outside the chamber. Each med we gave was watched, and triple checked with staff outside the chamber. I think the divers need the same links I had during chamber rides, and the high altitude climbers have with a base camp making calls.  The other problem is the air mixtures divers are using at depth: The Search for the Perfect Gas. Again, I am not a certified diver, just a chamber diver, but; even using the Dragger rebreather systems, I have to wonder if the partial pressure of rebreather oxygen is too high?

I am sorry to hear of the loss of the divers.
.


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## DC (Oct 18, 2016)

Pure O2 as the breathing media becomes toxic after 60ft(each diver is different). The LARV is 100% O2. Usually dives were limited to 30 ft but bounce dives were authorized to 60ft for mission requirements. Now the Navy is using Nitrox to deal with the PP of the breathing media to elongate dive times and relieve possible symptoms of exposure at depth. Your alcohol theory at depth I have proven. At the Escape training tank we would drop down to the 120ft blister and take a few hits off a vodka flask. Instant buzz. Good times


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 18, 2016)

Here is a map of the area they were diving.  WOW!


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## DC (Oct 18, 2016)

Wonder what thier dive profiles were, breathing media, equipment, etc. Narced out at 120 for experienced divers is extremely manageable. All the other scenerios buy the "experts" in the piece are talking textbook basic SCUBA issues. These dudes were at the top of thier game I would suggest Murphys Laws of Diving.


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## Polar Bear (Oct 18, 2016)

I know nothing of diving but why not use rope to trace your path? If it is known to be that dangerous. 550 cord.


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## DC (Oct 18, 2016)

Rope and a backup spool or reel is cave/enclosed space diving 101. This could be a rec dive gone bad. Serious caverns are technical divers. Very vague story diving wise.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 18, 2016)

DC said:


> Pure O2 as the breathing media becomes toxic after 60ft(each diver is different). The LARV is 100% O2. Usually dives were limited to 30 ft but bounce dives were authorized to 60ft for mission requirements. Now the Navy is using Nitrox to deal with the PP of the breathing media to elongate dive times and relieve possible symptoms of exposure at depth. Your alcohol theory at depth I have proven. At the Escape training tank we would drop down to the 120ft blister and take a few hits off a vodka flask. Instant buzz. Good times



Aye, me Lad. Tis a shame indeed that ye took not a dram of good Irish Whiskey with ye. The words that would a roiled off yer tongue would 'ave been Heaven sent indeed.

Thanks for the info on your dive mixtures. 

I'd appreciate your thoughts Re: Draager rebreather systems, with the CO 2 scrubbers, at the depth these guys were diving to.


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## AWP (Oct 18, 2016)

Scubadew said:


> Scary stuff.
> 
> Have you read Shadow Divers?  Great read if you (or anyone else) is interested in wreck diving. I got to meet John Chatterton, Richie Kohler, and Mike Norwood (RIP) through my dad and they were nice guys.



I think I have, but I'm not sure. It is one of those topics that fascinates me, but I don't know if I'd ever try it.


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## 104TN (Oct 19, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I think I have, but I'm not sure. It is one of those topics that fascinates me, but I don't know if I'd ever try it.


Nope. Just like getting on a sub. Never in a million years.


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## DC (Oct 19, 2016)

Getting on a sub is easy. Locking in/out, doing a SEP13 and playing with SDV while moving at 2 knots on the back of one...that's pure FUN!


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## DasBoot (Oct 19, 2016)

I don't have many outright fears. My list of "NOOOOPPPPEEEE" inducing activities is quite short. My only phobia is very specific- drowning in a pipe or tunnel. So pretty much cave diving. I would rather jump a 240 onto a hostile airfield without a reserve than do that.


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## Gunz (Oct 19, 2016)

If I was going to "cave dive" Florida would be the last place on Earth I would do it.

First of all, calling it a cave is a misnomer because it conjures up the impression of some structural solidity. It's a fuckin sinkhole. There's no supporting rock here. The whole goddam peninsula sits on karst limestone _that can dissolve from water circulation_. And you want to go 300 feet down? WTF.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 19, 2016)

T


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## Devildoc (Oct 19, 2016)

I am a diver.  A very experienced diver.  But not in a million years would be a cave diver.  I don't know if they are brave or stupid or a bit of both.


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## TLDR20 (Oct 19, 2016)

I like diving, in the open ocean, with experienced guides, in warm water with lots of pretty things to look at. Diving in confined spaces gets my heart rate up just thinking about it. I guess it is all about conditioning yourself to normal.


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## DA SWO (Oct 19, 2016)

I am open water certified, and did not enjoy my night dives at all.
I agree with @TLDR20 that open ocean, warm water great visibility is the way to go.
Like @Polar Bear said, where was the rope/cord that they should have had?
I have minimal wreck diving experience, but the pros tell me they trail a line through the more challenging wrecks to ensure they can get back when the silt stirs.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 19, 2016)

My wife and I used to do a lot of caving in college and our first couple of years in the Army.  Oftentimes, we got to where we couldn't push the cave anymore because we ran into water.   I wanted to dive those spots, but couldn't get anyone to do it with me so I never did it.  

A couple of decades ago during my wife's open-water certification training, I had the opportunity to do some cavern diving while ,y wife's group was getting certified (cavern diving = you can still see daylight, vs. cave diving = complete darkness).  It was an utterly disorienting experience.  It was hard to tell which way was up, and which way was out.  Fortunately, it was daylight so it was easy to follow the light out, plus there were several large fish hanging out in the bottom of the cavern, so I used them as a point of reference to orient myself towards "up."  There was also a pretty strong current flowing out of the cave, and no silt.  At about 30' down, no real risk of narcosis either.

I can only imagine what it's like in the dark, running low on air, zero viz, and something goes wrong.


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## TLDR20 (Oct 19, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> I can only imagine what it's like in the dark, running low on air, zero viz, and something goes wrong.



Terrifying. There is a reason our combatant diver courses (BUD/S, SFUWO, whatever the AF does) are so insanely difficult. Comfort in the water is something that can only be learned through stress in the water. I used to surf, a lot. I have been held down a pretty long time, I grew comfortable with that after a certain point. You know your limits, and stay within them. Well as I became more comfortable and started riding bigger waves, eventually you can have the wind knocked out of you when you go over the falls, then you are down that terryfiying 15-25 seconds in the dark with no breath. Things escalate quickly in the water.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 19, 2016)

Saddened for the family's of the dead divers, but this is one of the more interesting group of responses I've seen in a thread - amazing insight!


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## AWP (Oct 19, 2016)

Thinking through this ignorant wretch's understanding of diving it reminds me of a question posed by one of my skydiving instructors:

How long do you have to clear a malfunction?

The rest of your life.

Blue Skies


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## Devildoc (Oct 19, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Terrifying. There is a reason our combatant diver courses (BUD/S, SFUWO, whatever the AF does) are so insanely difficult. Comfort in the water is something that can only be learned through stress in the water. I used to surf, a lot. I have been held down a pretty long time, I grew comfortable with that after a certain point. You know your limits, and stay within them. Well as I became more comfortable and started riding bigger waves, eventually you can have the wind knocked out of you when you go over the falls, then you are down that terryfiying 15-25 seconds in the dark with no breath. Things escalate quickly in the water.



Not a graduate of BUDS or a combat diver school, I did attend a couple diver recovery/rescue schools when I was on a technical rescue team.  Very physical, but also quite mental...blacked out masks, underwater obstacle courses, etc.

On my first dive in a lake looking for a tossed handgun used in a murder, zero visibility, and all sorts of things grabbing at me (debris), I understood why the training was the way it was.


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## AWP (Oct 19, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> I understood why the training was the way it was.



People wonder why some courses are so "hard." There's something to be said for training someone to problem solve when their life is against the clock.


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## Scholar (Oct 19, 2016)

I've explored numerous caves here in TN and I've gotten into diving them in the last year. The entire concept of being squeezed into a small space below ground is fun but panic inducing. So is being underwater for extended periods of time. I pretty much see it as combining two things I enjoy while expanding my comfort zones. It's generally pretty safe around here because the limestone beds are typically quiet dense and structurally safe for the most part. Silt is the sketchy part because blackouts are a very real thing. We haul silt stakes and lines with us anytime we go under so getting lost isn't a huge concern, but the thought is always in the back of your mind. I don't know anyone who uses a closed circuit, but I could see the advantages on +1000m dives.


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## Totentanz (Oct 19, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> Not a graduate of BUDS or a combat diver school, I did attend a couple diver recovery/rescue schools when I was on a technical rescue team.  Very physical, but also quite mental...blacked out masks, underwater obstacle courses, etc.
> 
> On my first dive in a lake looking for a tossed handgun used in a murder, zero visibility, and all sorts of things grabbing at me (debris), I understood why the training was the way it was.



Of the NC tech rescue specialties, dive is close to being last on the "things I want to do" list...
(I don't doubt the utility of the training, just not my thing.)


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 20, 2016)

<Copied from the Cave Divers Forum>

STATEMENT OF FACTS

1. Chris Rittenmeyer and Patrick Peacock started a dive at Eagle's Nest around 2:00 p.m. on Saturday, October 15, 2016. They were on JJ-CCRs with 95cf sidemount bailouts. Each diver had a scooter and an AL80 safety. They also towed a backup scooter. They had placed all their deco safeties in the cave the day before.

2. Chris and Patrick were both fully trained as Full Cave, Trimix, CCR, and DPV divers. Both divers had years of ocean and cave diving experience.

3. When the divers failed to return to deco at the anticipated time, their surface support buddy checked every 30 minutes until they were several hours overdue. Their buddy called Cave Country Dive Shop around 6:00 p.m. and spoke to Jon Bernot, who immediately loaded his vehicle and started driving to Eagle's Nest. While enroute, Jon called around and activated a response team of qualified and available cave divers.

4. Search Team 1, of Jon Bernot and Charlie Roberson, got underway around 11:00 p.m. to search the upstream passage, which was the dive plan according to the buddy. Team 1 checked the habitat and spotted three O2 bottles at 20 ffw, four 50% at 70 ffw, and two 120 bottles on the top of the mound, all of which were untouched. Team 1 noticed that the 120 bottles were on the downstream side of the line but decided to go ahead and check the upstream since that was believed to be the dive plan. Team 1 scoured the entire upstream all the way to the far reaches of the Green Room, King's Challenge, and all the large passage and rooms. When Team I failed to find anything upstream, they proceeded to check the Lockwood tunnel to no avail. Team 1 surfaced around 3:30 a.m.

5. Search Team 2, of Ted McCoy and AJ Gonzales, got underway around 3:45 a.m. and headed downstream. They immediately found the two bodies on the exit side of the Pit in approximately 220-230 ffw. Team 2 fully documented the scene and took detailed notes for about 45 minutes before exiting.

6. Diver 1 was wearing his CCR but his bailouts were not in place. One empty 95 bailout was beside him and attached to his rig via a QC6 and the long hose was deployed. His loop was open and out of his mouth. The inhale side of the loop was crushed. He had 300 psi of O2 but no onboard diluent remaining. He did have a 13cf inflation bottle with gas remaining. He had no primary light head and his backup lights were not deployed. There was a single scooter near Diver 1 but it was unclipped and turned off.

7. Diver 2 was only wearing a drysuit, mask and fins and was positively buoyant. He had a backup light clipped off and dangling out of his pocket. No other bottles were nearby.

8. A full AL80 safety was located just on the exit side of the Pit restriction in 270 ffw but was not easily seen on the way out. The primary light head with e/o cord was also located on the exit side of the Pit restriction. Their other full AL80 safety was located beside another team’s full safety just downstream of the jump to the Lockwood tunnel.

9. Two 95 bailouts were located just on the far side of the Pit. Both were empty.

10. Recovery Team 1 brought both bodies to the top of the Ballroom and Recovery Team 2 brought both bodies to the surface on Sunday afternoon.

11. Diver 2's CCR, a 95 bailout, and two scooters were located on Monday morning just outside the restriction to Revelation Space in the Room of Dreams. The CCR loop was closed and appeared to be fully operational. The 95 bailout was full. Diver 2 had video lights for a GoPro plugged into his canister light.

12. The gear recovery team of Jon Bernot and James Draker removed all the gear from the cave and turned it over to law enforcement on Monday, October 17, 2016.


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## AWP (Oct 20, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> 4. Search Team 1, of Jon Bernot and Charlie Roberson, got underway around 11:00 p.m. to search *the upstream passage, which was the dive plan *according to the buddy.
> 
> 5. Search Team 2, of Ted McCoy and AJ Gonzales, got underway around 3:45 a.m. and *headed downstream. They immediately found the two bodies *on the exit side of the Pit in approximately 220-230 ffw.



Death in many activities is caused by a chain of events. Break the chain and live. I have to wonder, if this was the chain's beginning. "Plan the dive, dive the plan" was always our mantra. Even something as "safe" as skydiving has rules to follow. Don't make up stuff as the dive progresses. Like Leeroy Jenkins, you should stick to the plan.

We'll never know why, but I have to wonder if that started the fatal afternoon.


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## Gunz (Oct 20, 2016)

_3. When the divers failed to return to deco at the anticipated time, their surface support buddy checked every 30 minutes *until they were several hours overdue*._

Several hours? What does that mean? I know nothing about diving. What does it mean that their "surface support buddy checked every 30 minutes"? What did he check? Was he able to communicate with them? And if so, wouldn't he be a little concerned if he got no reply or response after considerably less time that "several hours"?


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## DC (Oct 20, 2016)

Several hours means they were already dead. Sad. To me it sounds of a equipment failures, a bail out of one rig and an attempt to find the surface. I hate to say it but panic ensued. Buoyant means weight dropped and last gasp. I don't think these fella realized thier depth at this point. I wasn't even there so I can only speculate. I feel sadness for the whole affair.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 20, 2016)

I used to be a member of the National Speleological Society (NSS), and their monthly(?) publication included summaries of caving accidents.  Almost all of the fatalities were from cave diving.  It made for pretty fascinating reading.  We had a guy go hypothermic once, but that was the extent of anything bad that ever happened to us.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 20, 2016)

I


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## DC (Oct 21, 2016)

Cave Diving's Mysterious Allure—and Risks


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 21, 2016)

DC said:


> Cave Diving's Mysterious Allure—and Risks



Very cool and informative article.  A small excerpt below:

What is Eagle’s Nest like where the divers were exploring?
_It’s beautiful. It’s this almost perfectly circular pool in the middle of a low-lying swampy area. You go down a tubular chimney, dropping down the limestone, that’s really only the length of your body. Suddenly, at 70 feet, the floor and the walls all drop away and it’s just blackness all around you. You finally land down on top of this debris mound at about 130 feet, and you’re in this enormous room, like the size of an aircraft hangar. It’s stunningly beautiful._


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## The Accountant (Oct 21, 2016)

I love diving. But you will never catch me in a cave system. I rather dive with sharks, which is fairly enjoyable.  

Night diving seems great if you are in the right spot. Supposedly night diving with manta rays is phenomenal. 

Reef systems are the most enjoyable especially with the right dive masters.


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