# Short Barrel Rifle Accuracy Questions



## Nikolai308 (Aug 31, 2017)

Gentlemen, 

Our Chief at my police department is seriously thinking about getting short barreled rifles and silencers.  I do not have a lot of knowledge on silencers and accuracy for short barreled rifles.  We would like to purchase just the uppers as we have lower receivers to use. These rifles would be for our SRT team who do entry and woodland ops in our area.  So here is my list of questions:  

1.  On a 10 or 11 inch barrel, how accurate are they out to 300 yards? 
2.  Screw on or detachable silencers?   
3.  If we use silencers what issues do we need to be aware with a short barreled rifle? 
4. Silencer recommendations (not looking for top of the line, looking for reliability at a decent price)

Any thoughts or advice is appreciated in advance.   

Nikolai308


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## Gunz (Aug 31, 2017)

Short-barreled rifles can be accurate at 300 yards, depending on the rig and the shooter...but why would you use one for a critical distance shot when I assume you--as an SRT sniper--would have better options. Short rifles are the perfect thing for confined spaces or moderate distances...but I'd want a long gun for anything beyond 200.

Others here can give you advice about suppressors.


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## Nikolai308 (Aug 31, 2017)

Ocoka, 

We are not looking to use these for the snipers.   They are for confined spaces / moderate distances and will be used by the entry team and maybe by patrol further down the line.  One of the issues we in the LE community face is hearing loss from shooting in confined spaces.  We are trying to prevent hearing loss before it happens.


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## Gunz (Aug 31, 2017)

Gotcha, I misunderstood.


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## Kakashi66223 (Sep 1, 2017)

Nikolai308 said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> Our Chief at my police department is seriously thinking about getting short barreled rifles and silencers.  I do not have a lot of knowledge on silencers and accuracy for short barreled rifles.  We would like to purchase just the uppers as we have lower receivers to use. These rifles would be for our SRT team who do entry and woodland ops in our area.  So here is my list of questions:
> 
> ...



I'm no expert, I literally don't have a single tax stamp in my name, but I did learn a lot from my friends tho. Very loaded question tho.

1. Accuracy to 300yds, I guess it really depends on what AMMO you are using and out of what BARREL , ergo:   1:7 NATO 556: 62grain m855 to 77grain Sierra Match. Not a fan of 556 and suppressing.

 300BLK if you go LEO M4/AR lowers if it were my call.

--Either way to best answer this question, *to 300yards* *most rifles are more consistent than the shooter.* (Exceptions being low twist, heavy projectile, poor ammo quality, and projectiles that are bricks due to lighter loads and the 5.7x28mm.) SBRs are louder as the charge is still burning but the short range accuracy is again mostly dependent on twist and ammo. Also, most of the testing I've seen show slight drops in fps that really effect performance of  556/762  at 400-600. Longer barrels burn some quantitative amount, safe to say a lot, of the propellant which translates to higher fps, overall longer and harder.

2. That's prolly your depts' call, screw-on suppressors needs to periodically be retightened often during use, wear a thick glove or oven mitt as you shoot a mag or two. Prolly best to wield/ pin this can on.

3. Some things to Google/youtube on your own, you'll learn more on your own than me saying this is "the gospel".

-- 300blk suppressed, Suppressors need preventative maintenance, baffle strikes, suppressors can get stuck if they are detachable(shoot off /torch), and they are safely loud but not utterly silent. Supersonic loads vs subsonic. Piston vs direct inpingment, specific suppressed BCGs and buffers.

4. There are a lot of good CANS out there. My recommendations may not fit your depts profile.

GL. Blue lives matter.


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## DA SWO (Sep 1, 2017)

AFSOC (and others) are using SBR's and whacking bad guys/gals all over the world.
Barrels wearing out has been the only issue (talking to friends at Hq AFSOC).
Don't see how a screw on would change the POI, as it's essentially an extension of the barrel.
Are the Patrol Officers doing room clearing, if not then a 14 or 16 inch barrel would be better, likewise getting an extra upper for the weapon may be a better option.
I wouldn't pin the suppressor to the weapon.


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## policemedic (Sep 1, 2017)

Tagged for later.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 1, 2017)

Barrel Length Studies in 5.56mm NATO Weapons

I would type a lengthy response out, but I've discussed it before on here. You lose velocity with the shorter barrel, thus with a smaller round such as 5.56, you lose lethality at greater distances. The round will be barley lethal at 300 yards (you won't get the tumbling and fragmenting effects, and not as deep penatration) but yes it will group and break enter the body at 300yd. 

That said, out side of the CQB ranges, I do not like short barrels, unless using a different caliber, such as 7.62, etc. But that's just my personal preference.


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## AWP (Sep 1, 2017)

How many police shootings take place past 200m?


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## Kraut783 (Sep 1, 2017)

Zero


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## Kraut783 (Sep 1, 2017)

Back in the day when SWAT was rocking the HK MP5 SD's...it was great, if you heard a gunshot, you knew it was a bad guy shooting. Suppressed for law enforcement has a place.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 1, 2017)




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## Nikolai308 (Sep 2, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> AFSOC (and others) are using SBR's and whacking bad guys/gals all over the world.
> Barrels wearing out has been the only issue (talking to friends at Hq AFSOC).
> Don't see how a screw on would change the POI, as it's essentially an extension of the barrel.
> Are the Patrol Officers doing room clearing, if not then a 14 or 16 inch barrel would be better, likewise getting an extra upper for the weapon may be a better option.
> I wouldn't pin the suppressor to the weapon.



We are looking to get an extra uppers.   I leaning more towards a detachable suppressor system then a screw


Kraut783 said:


> Zero



If you read the ASA utilization report, there a few instances of shootings occurring past 200 meters.  Remember, nobody thought the bad guys would be throwing pipe bombs in downtown Boston at the police.


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## Kraut783 (Sep 2, 2017)

Nikolai308 said:


> If you read the ASA utilization report, there a few instances of shootings occurring past 200 meters.  Remember, nobody thought the bad guys would be throwing pipe bombs in downtown Boston at the police.



True, the "zero" statement was kind of flippant, but not counting police snipers....the chances of patrol officers or tactical teams taking those kind of shots with a M4 (or other patrol type rifle).....are very very very low.


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## Kraut783 (Sep 2, 2017)

The removable Surefire suppressor attachment system seemed pretty solid back when I played with them in '02.


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## DA SWO (Sep 2, 2017)

Nikolai308 said:


> We are looking to get an extra uppers.   I leaning more towards a detachable suppressor system then a screw
> 
> 
> If you read the ASA utilization report, there a few instances of shootings occurring past 200 meters.  Remember, nobody thought the bad guys would be throwing pipe bombs in downtown Boston at the police.



Go to the SHOT show in Vegas, you can play with every suppressor available and talk with company reps.


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## policemedic (Sep 2, 2017)

My thoughts are in red in the quoted portion. 



Nikolai308 said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> Our Chief at my police department is seriously thinking about getting short barreled rifles and silencers.  I do not have a lot of knowledge on silencers and accuracy for short barreled rifles.  We would like to purchase just the uppers as we have lower receivers to use. These rifles would be for our SRT team who do entry and woodland ops in our area.  So here is my list of questions:
> 
> ...



Now, be aware that public opinion may factor into your decision. You may get pushback from politicians, etc.

Also, we're talking SWAT here. SBRs excel in vehicles and inside buildings; an SBR with a suppressor is equal in length or longer than a 16" bbl M4. Mine is setup as a Mk18 and it's a hair longer than my long upper. Again, mission/gear train issue. Pick the right gear for the mission profile.

If the team is doing woodland ops, absolutely mount the long upper.

Silencers are a great thing, and go a long way towards reducing irreversible hearing damage (says the medic with tinnitus).

Also, a related issue is what kind of comms gear is the team using? Suppressors may be more of a safety issue (read: OSHA) for patrol than for SWAT with Peltors.

I personally think all LEOs should have the option of using a suppressor, and I'm working on developing research to show this is best practice.

These are just a few of my thoughts. I'm a doc, not a sniper so maybe one of our resident snipers will join in. My perspective is from the standpoint of someone in the stack.  @Cabbage Head @Etype


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## policemedic (Sep 2, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> Go to the SHOT show in Vegas, you can play with every suppressor available and talk with company reps.



What he said.


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## Kaldak (Sep 2, 2017)

I thought you needed to have specific jobs to attend. In other words, if not in the procurement role, but simply doing research to convince upper management, you wouldn't be able to attend, correct?



DA SWO said:


> Go to the SHOT show in Vegas, you can play with every suppressor available and talk with company reps.


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## policemedic (Sep 2, 2017)

Kaldak said:


> I thought you needed to have specific jobs to attend. In other words, if not in the procurement role, but simply doing research to convince upper management, you wouldn't be able to attend, correct?



You're a cop. You're GTG.


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## Muppet (Sep 12, 2017)

Guh


policemedic said:


> My thoughts are in red in the quoted portion.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Huh???

M.


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## policemedic (Sep 12, 2017)

Muppet said:


> Guh
> 
> Huh???
> 
> M.



Double huh?


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## Muppet (Sep 12, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Double huh?



Over your head bro. Hearing loss. HUH!!!? Same as us with sirens after all these years, Maria swears I have selective listening...

M.


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## Devildoc (Sep 12, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> Zero



Aside from sniper/marksman shots, truth.

Honestly I think SBRs are so niche-driven (CQB, etc.) I don't know why you would not just use a M4.  Even with a suppressor, it would work, and would work for multiple roles.


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## 256 (May 8, 2018)

Here's my patrol/swat rifle with Surefire suppressor the barrel is 10.5''. Using SBRs in homes (extremely confined hallways, stairs, everything) or in building searches, in general, is much, much easier. Also, weapons flow is much easier. "Weapons flow" is just a term I've heard used on our team, I'm not saying it's new, but it was new to me. When you have a shorter barrel it's easier to get into ready or carrier positions, depending on where you are in relation to your team. Barrel length has zero to do with accuracy and everything to do with velocity; so long as the shooter does his part. With the loss of velocity comes more manipulation of the system but, in LE distance is usually not a factor. If you've ever shot next to a dude in a shoot-house or in a confined place, you'd wish he would have been using a suppressor. Not only because it's loud, but because it's loud and maybe you weren't expecting it. That type of shit throws off your OODA LOOP, but the suppressor helps cut down on being startled. Suppressors also make communication easier for the patrol guys on the road. You'll have auditory execution during stress, but that doesn't mean your eardrums won't be f&^%ed up.

It was already said but just to reaffirm, SBR's have been dirt napping bad guys for a long time. They make the job easier, there's certainly a place for suppressors as well. I would lose the idea of switching out uppers in different environments. There's just no need for it, short barrels in rifles are just fine. Find a good length for the caliber you're using. I think 300 Blk might catch on for LE use, heavy bullet, bunch of energy, and extremely well suited in SBRs, especially suppressed ones.


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## blubuilt (May 16, 2018)

Older post, but I'll chime in here too.



Nikolai308 said:


> Gentlemen,
> 
> Our Chief at my police department is seriously thinking about getting short barreled rifles and silencers.  I do not have a lot of knowledge on silencers and accuracy for short barreled rifles.  We would like to purchase just the uppers as we have lower receivers to use. These rifles would be for our SRT team who do entry and woodland ops in our area.  So here is my list of questions:
> 
> ...



1. I can hit out to 300yds with my suppressed SBR (11.3" bbl, eotech w/ magnifer, AAC 556SD, 62gr M855), it is not what I would deem precise but I can consistently achieve high-center mass hits, I average somewhere around 2.5-3" groups/horizontal spread (at a range, ideal conditions, supported, no Adrenalin spikes and precisely zero incoming rounds) and I don't have near the skill/training as others might (I'm not what you'd call a slouch either). I've never mounted a higher power optic to this rifle so I am unsure how that would translate into my personal accuracy, I would like to guess better, but you can't rock it 'till you've tried it.

However, I am noticeably more accurate with even just a marginally longer barrel. The 14.5" barrel with the AAC 556SD attached is only 3.2" longer than the SBR, but that increase in length is comprised of lands and grooves, solid math. With quality marksmanship, quality barrel/ammo combo, and a low powered fixed/variable optic (3x, 1-4 thru 1-8) the 14.5" rifle is lights out from 0-300 in skilled hands. I run a 1-8 Nightforce on my 14.5" rifle and it's more accurate than I am, at 300yds I average .75-1" groups. Conversely, I've seen another shoot a 3-shot group with this rifle at about 200yds, all through one raggedy hole, I did not measure it, but it was substantially tighter than mine which was close to dime sized. 

The closest I shoot any rifle drill is 8yds, the SBR does drive a little better for me, but it is substantially lighter than the M4 and the difference in optic alters my cheek weld as I am higher up on the gun with the eotech. Point being, if I am twice as good with Gun 2 vs. Gun 1 at my needed maximum range of 300yds and I'm only half as good with Gun 2 vs. Gun 1 at 8yds then I am going with Gun 2.

2. Fast Attach (Surefire or Gemtech) or Ratchet Mount (AAC). Screw types need to be re-tightened occasionally as someone mentioned, and it has the added headache of thread wear/damage if you don't run a thread protector, which will in turn slow down attaching the can to the rifle.

3. Pros: As mentioned by others, increased accuracy, hearing protection/environmental concerns/safety. Cons:  Short-cycling/over-gassing when suppressed on a direct impingement or poorly set up gas-piston weapon (each version is correctable), increased cleaning/maintenance, and a moderate decrease in the lifespan of parts. The gun is going to run hotter and dirtier period.

4. I like AAC: moderately priced, performs well (negligible point of impact shift when suppressed vs. un-suppressed and consistent suppression), they're durable and I have had good results with them for service after the sale.


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## blubuilt (May 16, 2018)

mod_edit: The closest I shoot any rifle drill is 8ft.


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