# 3 Face Hazing Charges After Marine Commits Suicide



## AWP (Sep 8, 2011)

Did they go overboard? Maybe, I wasn't there so "stomping" could be a bit objective I suppose. The real stories for me at least are 1) is that this shitbag repeatedly fell asleep on duty so I can't shed a tear for his death and 2) What's the line between corrective training and hazing these days? Sheesh.

Like anything, I'm sure there's more to the story though.

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2011/09/0...after-marine-commits-suicide/?test=latestnews



> KANEOHE BAY, Hawaii –  A military court hearing for three Marines accused of hazing a fellow Marine who later committed suicide in Afghanistan focused Thursday on whether the accused intended to harm the deceased or discipline him so he would stop falling asleep while on watch duty.





> Orozco, 22, allegedly ordered Lew "to do pushups, side planks, leg lifts with a sandbag, while wearing full personal protective equipment and pouring sand onto his face," according to the cruelty and maltreatment charge against Orozco. He is also charged with assault for kicking Lew in the head and stomping on his back.


----------



## Crusader74 (Sep 9, 2011)

This comes to mind....


----------



## Marauder06 (Sep 9, 2011)

There are differences between on-the-spot corrections, corrective training, punishment, and brutality.  Pouring sand in a guy's face andkcicking &  stomping him (if that's what happened) to get him to perform?  :-|  Hard to see how that could be justified.


----------



## dknob (Sep 9, 2011)

sounds like a little bitch to me


----------



## DA SWO (Sep 9, 2011)

Marauder06 said:


> There are differences between on-the-spot corrections, corrective training, punishment, and brutality. Pouring sand in a guy's face andkcicking & stomping him (if that's what happened) to get him to perform? :-| Hard to see how that could be justified.


Agree.


----------



## Brill (Sep 9, 2011)

dknob said:


> sounds like a little bitch to me



Agree.


----------



## x SF med (Sep 9, 2011)

WTF ever happened to: "I will diligently guard my post until properly relieved"?
Sorry, in a combat zone "falling asleep multiple times while on guard duty" should have landed the young Marine right on the fucking street with a dishonorable discharge for dereliction of duty, after a few years in a nice military greybar hotel.   Hazing?  The friggin kid offed himself because he was going to get thrown out under exactly those circumstances - he got more chances than he deserved, asleep on guard duty...  again... ASLEEP ON FUCKING GUARD DUTY IN A FUCKING COMBAT ZONE...  luckily he's the only one that's doing the dirt nap, a lot more REAL Marines could have been killed or injured due to his actions.

No sympathy for the young Marine, but condolences to his family.

Oh, btw, I believe suicide is a cowards answer to problems - and taking your own life in circumstances that will allow a mission to be accomplished (injured, or imminent capture with info in your head that's important) and save other members of your Team is not suicide.


----------



## AWP (Sep 9, 2011)

The attack on Bagram last year? How do you think those guys made it on base? You see...someone was asleep in their tower.

I feel for the deceased's family, but he royally screwed the pooch.

This whole story is filled with Fail. It breaks my heart to be honest.


----------



## SkrewzLoose (Sep 9, 2011)

*Best Sean Connery voice*  "I'll take 'Violations of Article 113 of the UCMJ for 800, Alex, you fat slob."


----------



## Chopstick (Sep 9, 2011)

Its sort of hard to get any testimony out of the dead guy.  Just sayin'.


----------



## Manolito (Sep 9, 2011)

I was in the Navy and their 11 general orders did not allow sleeping. I looked up the Marine general orders and they do not allow sleeping.

*General Orders for Sentries*

There are 11 general orders and they are the same wherever and whenever a Marine is on interior guard duty. All Marines are required to know and memorize these general orders and be able to recite them whenever they are called upon to do so.
*1. To take charge of this post and all government property in view.*

*2. To walk my post in a military manner, keeping always on the alert, and observing everything that takes place within sight or hearing.*

*3. To report all violations of orders I am instructed to enforce.*

*4. To repeat all calls from posts more distant from the guardhouse than my own.*

*5. To quit my post only when properly relieved.*

*6. To recieve, obey, and pass on to the sentry who relieves me, all orders from the Commanding Officer, Officer Of the Day, and officers, and noncomissioned officers of the guard only. *

*7. To talk to no one except in the line of duty.*

*8. To give the alarm in case of fire or disorder.*

*9. To call the corporal of the guard in any case not covered by instructions.*

*10. To salute all officers, and all colors and standards not cased.*

*11. To be especially watchful at night and, during the time for challenging, to challenge all persons on or near my post, and to allow no one to pass without proper authority.*

12. To insure I know the other 11 General orders
*During Viet Nam we had a guy steal money and the CO offered him a courtmartial in Saigon or return to his section. He took the first Helo out of the area. I for one think sleeping while on watch in a war zone is worse than most disciplinary problems.*
*Respectfully,*
*Bill*
*Bill*


----------



## fox1371 (Sep 9, 2011)

I would be curious to know the exact conditions of the situation.  I do think that there was a different way the situation could have been handled.  I had the exact same issue with one of my Marines who was refusing to go on patrols and was falling asleep on post.  After I exhausted just about every means of punishment I could think of, I had him sent back up to the main FOB to be a paper b*tch.  I don't like dumping problems onto somebody else, however in country and at a patrol base is not the time and place for that kind of thing.  That and taking a kick to the back while you've got a vest with plates in doesn't hurt...I mean common.


----------



## Headshot (Sep 10, 2011)

Just like people who exercise their cowardly disgruntled driver shit were most likely angry about something else long before they vented it on you, it's too hard to say what was really eating at this guy, and too easy to blame it on the last circumstance before his cowardice took over.  There's no telling how long he had been contemplating this.  People don't just wake up one day having never thought of suicide and off themselves, it is a slow erosion over time with many subtle signs.  Is there the proverbial straw in most circumstances, yes...absolutely.  But to blame the entire episode on one event that happened nearest to ToD is unrealistic and archaic at best.  Have they still not learned anything about soldiers who display signs?  Chronic fatigue and sleepiness are tell signs of depression.  Everyone gets tired, but if someone is falling asleep that much that it requires a monkey stomping, then there are some underlying issues.

On the flip side of the coin, I can remember guys having plastic bags put on their heads and PT'd by the Spec4 mafia until they passed out.  I also remember turning the heat up in the barracks and waxing the hallway and making nubes caterpillar crawl in their newly issued fart sacks until the floor was polished.  Good times............good times.


----------



## Chopstick (Sep 11, 2011)

I was thinking along those lines HS.  If someone is literally falling asleep all the time perhaps there is an underlying physiological or psychological issue?  I dont know that beating the shit out of someone and constant abuse is really the way to rectify or get to the root of the problem.  If the guy was such a d bag and an endangerment to others why wasnt he just put in the brig or whatever its called?  Why wasnt he given a medical and/or psychological evaluation?  Why was he left in situations that jeopardized others? Its pretty easy to sit in judgement and just take the word of others as fact in all of this.  But I think its a bit of a jump to a conclusion to just pronounce the deceased "a little bitch" without ALL of the FACTS.   What happened to innocent until proven guilty?  I also think it inappropriate to dog pile a dead man.  That kid was some one's son and I think it is disgraceful that perhaps his family might see that posted on this board.  Its not outside the realm of possibility.  So if anyone feels the need to dogpile, go ahead and dogpile me.  Im at least alive and available for rebuttal.   And yes I am biased.  The av a tar over there on the left says it all.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 11, 2011)

My stance wholly depends on whether he committed suicide because he realized the gravity of his mistake or because of the corrective measures.  Either way he was a coward.


----------



## Chopstick (Sep 11, 2011)

Fair enough but dont you think the term "coward" can be spread around?  I think it would apply to those committing the hazing as well as anyone in charge that was aware of it and not standing up TO the people committing the hazing and not standing up FOR the individual or individuals being victimized by the hazing.  I could also say lazy for not taking steps but turning a blind eye as well as allowing others to be put in harms way by placing a weak link as the line of defense.  But thats just me..a stupid civilian.  WTF do I know?


----------



## Purple (Sep 11, 2011)

Sleep can sometimes mask physiological (sleep deprivation, hypoglycemia, etc) and psychological (depression) medical issues.

Personally, I don't understand suicide (with the exception of ending an insufferable terminal illness) but don't think anybody who isn't suicidal can really understand whatever it is that causes someone to think they have no other recourse than to take their own life.
Sleeping on guard duty in a combat zone was a court martial offense - don't know what the '_norm_' is now.

Nothing worse than getting caught '_dozing_' when standing watch or in an ambush position and - if feasible - have someone take your weapon and then pop off a few rounds or toss a grenade - waking up to the sound of what you think is an attack and not being able to locate your weapon is a lesson one never forgets if you survive it.

We used to carry a large red permanent marker and when we caught someone dozing in training, draw a horizontal stripe across their neck just under the jaw line to simulate a slit throat, and then monitor them until they came awake and rejoined their peers. Nothing like the reaction they received from their peers when they saw the red line across the guy's throat and they knew he'd been asleep on post and had jeopardized their lives and mission. The marker wouldn't wash off for a few days, either, and served as a VGA for all.

If this was not a first offense and his unit was concerned about him, I don't understand why he was not _'buddied up'_ or more closely supervised until he could either be trusted, examined for any extenuating medical problems, or removed pending UCMJ action.

Maybe we'll eventually hear _'the rest of the story'_ here - or maybe not. :-/

And so it goes...

Purple


----------



## MacK (Sep 11, 2011)

Headshot said:


> Just like people who exercise their cowardly disgruntled driver shit were most likely angry about something else long before they vented it on you, it's too hard to say what was really eating at this guy, and too easy to blame it on the last circumstance before his cowardice took over. There's no telling how long he had been contemplating this. People don't just wake up one day having never thought of suicide and off themselves, it is a slow erosion over time with many subtle signs. Is there the proverbial straw in most circumstances, yes...absolutely. But to blame the entire episode on one event that happened nearest to ToD is unrealistic and archaic at best.



Exactly. My brother is in the same battalion that this Marine was in and he said that they guy wasn't a bad person but a few months into the deployment he just started losing it. The repercussions for falling asleep on guard duty were the final straw for him. He was 5 months in to his first 7 month deployment. He was the only death in that battalion on that deployment.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 11, 2011)

Chopstick said:


> Fair enough but dont you think the term "coward" can be spread around? I think it would apply to those committing the hazing as well as anyone in charge that was aware of it and not standing up TO the people committing the hazing and not standing up FOR the individual or individuals being victimized by the hazing. I could also say lazy for not taking steps but turning a blind eye as well as allowing others to be put in harms way by placing a weak link as the line of defense. But thats just me..a stupid civilian. WTF do I know?



I think we would be saying something different if his actions caused the death of his fellow marines.  The repercussions of falling asleep on guard duty should be severe.  Although I don't condone the "hazing," I do condone the policing up your own.


----------



## SkrewzLoose (Sep 11, 2011)

Under article 113 of the UCMJ, improper watch standing during a time of war is punishable by death.  Shit I remember from boot camp a few months ago...


----------



## 104TN (Sep 11, 2011)

Chopstick said:


> Fair enough but dont you think the term "coward" can be spread around?



I understand you're a Marine's mom, but everything else in this thread aside - the fact he took his own life makes him a coward in my book.

I feel for his family.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 11, 2011)

I don’t know if I would have smoked a Joe for falling asleep on guard, I think I would have pushed paper work and made him pull standing guard in the worst place I could find, while I did periodic checks on him. I would have taken every bit of free time away and had, but trying to smoke a guy for falling asleep is a bit “basic training”.

I am a big fan of the corrective training fit’s the fuck up (i.e. if you fuck up on patrol, I’ll have you doing IMT’s until you pass out, you fuck up on a range or have an ND, weapon drills until you pass out). Just scuffing someone with PT doesn’t work IMHO, I have better results with fixing the problem with doing it right until they can’t take it anymore. Thats not to say I won't drop someone for small shit though.

As for hazing being the reason this Marine killed himself, I doubt it. It normally takes a bit more than that, like underlining mental disorders to begin with. I tend to agree with some of the other that the dude was weak and tapped out and now his brothers are going to take the hit for it.


----------



## Chopstick (Sep 11, 2011)

JAB said:


> As for hazing being the reason this Marine killed himself, I doubt it. It normally takes a bit more than that, like underlining mental disorders to begin with.



This.  I personally dont think that anyone that commits suicide for any reason is of sound mind.  I sincerely feel for anyone that finds him or herself in such a dark place.  I really think they are truly mentally ill.  Of course anyone is entitled to their opinion but calling someone a coward and condemning  them is pretty judgmental.  You have to think sometimes.."there but for the Grace of God go I".  I think victims of suicide for whatever reason deserve pity and yes I do feel for the family too Rick.


----------



## Marauder06 (Sep 11, 2011)

JAB said:


> I don’t know if I would have smoked a Joe for falling asleep on guard, I think I would have pushed paper work and made him pull standing guard in the worst place I could find, while I did periodic checks on him. I would have taken every bit of free time away and had, but trying to smoke a guy for falling asleep is a bit “basic training”.
> ...



See, THAT is "corrective training," consequences fit the offense.  What was reportedly done to the Marine in this case was at least "punishment," which is in a completely different category, and most likely "cruelty" and "assault" on top of that.  Corrective training is what you're supposed to do as leaders, if you want to inflict "punishment" get into a job where you have UCMJ authority.  I think in some cases an on-the-spot correction that has Joe do kind of limited physical activity is appropriate, but for significant transgressions, especially if they're repeated, you really need to look into it a little closer.  This will usually be part of legitimate corrective training or will come out when you press your chain of command for punishment.


----------



## RetPara (Sep 12, 2011)

I'm seeing Team and Squad Ldr, but where the hell is the PL and Plt Sgt in all of this?  Let alone the company CoC.  I'm not looking to take scalps...  at some point the physical punishment crossed the line into abuse and assault.  Falling asleep on guard duty in combat... yeah; I can see smacking him.  If this was not an incident, but continual for a time frame.  There are more in the CoC that dropped the ball.


----------



## HOLLiS (Sep 12, 2011)

RetPara said:


> I'm seeing Team and Squad Ldr, but where the hell is the PL and Plt Sgt in all of this? Let alone the company CoC. I'm not looking to take scalps... at some point the physical punishment crossed the line into abuse and assault. Falling asleep on guard duty in combat... yeah; I can see smacking him. If this was not an incident, but continual for a time frame. There are more in the CoC that dropped the ball.


 
My thoughts too,  The guy, if this was common practice for him to fall asleep, was in the wrong job or should not have been in the Marine Corps.   There are people, for what ever reason, should never be in the military unless for canon fodder.    We had a guy who refused to carry a rifle,  they made him the professional shitter burner for the battalion.   I am not against "chain locker" discipline, though it is clearly a big no no now.

I don't know if I would call him a coward.   Suicide generally happens when a person comes to a junction where they are both helpless and hopeless.   The guy could have had some kind of sleep disorder.  Maybe in his mind, he knew he would fall asleep again and that could cost the lives of other Marines.   A failure in the world of information could have had something to do with this.   Maybe the guy did not know he could request medical help, and psych help from his Corpsman or Chaplain.    Command should have been more proactive, or maybe they were and were trapped in this situation too.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 12, 2011)

JAB said:


> I don’t know if I would have smoked a Joe for falling asleep on guard, I think I would have pushed paper work and made him pull standing guard in the worst place I could find, while I did periodic checks on him. I would have taken every bit of free time away and had, but trying to smoke a guy for falling asleep is a bit “basic training”.
> 
> I am a big fan of the corrective training fit’s the fuck up (i.e. if you fuck up on patrol, I’ll have you doing IMT’s until you pass out, you fuck up on a range or have an ND, weapon drills until you pass out). Just scuffing someone with PT doesn’t work IMHO, I have better results with fixing the problem with doing it right until they can’t take it anymore. Thats not to say I won't drop someone for small shit though.
> 
> As for hazing being the reason this Marine killed himself, I doubt it. It normally takes a bit more than that, like underlining mental disorders to begin with. I tend to agree with some of the other that the dude was weak and tapped out and now his brothers are going to take the hit for it.


 
I'd say that is an acceptable punishment for a training situation.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 13, 2011)

Florida173 said:


> I'd say that is an acceptable punishment for a training situation.



I am not sure what part you are talking about, but to be clear as an NCO I don't believe it is my job to "punish" a soldier; I may carry out a punishment as ordered by my CoC.  But ut is not within the scope of my duties to personally determine punishments and enact them without approval of the CoC. I might recommend and the CoC may say “do it” but that’s about as close as it gets.

If I have a soldier who has committed a crime or broken policy/regulation, depending on the offense made, I will counsel him and make my recommendation (i.e. corrective training or I will recommend punishment to the CoC). Personally I do not recommend what punishment I think the soldier needs, I simply state I believe he needs to be punished and leave it to the CoC. If they ask me for a recommendation on how far to go with the punishment I will talk it over with the CoC and determine my recommendation based on several factors (i.e past performance and issues, severity of the offense and likelihood for it to happen again).

Now in this incident where I am the Sgt of the guard and a soldier has fallen asleep, I have no choice but to report it to the OIC/Cdr. This is all lined out in the general orders and FM 22-6. GUARD DUTY and as an NCO I have a responsibility to follow the policies and standards set by them. When I report it, the CoC may say deal with it or they may say the CoC will deal with it. If I have the opportunity to deal with it, I will take all the factors into consideration and go from there.

As for what I consider to be good corrective training for a training or combat environment, is based on the factors of the situation and my ability to keep it at my level. Again in this case it is out of my hands and unless the CoC say deal with it, I don’t have much say. If the send it back to my level, that tells me 1) it was not that big of a deal to them (i.e. they are not going to punish unless I say to) and 2) that they have confidence in my ability to correct the problem and keep it from happening again. And in that situation I would use corrective training with close supervision to correct the problem until that soldier regained my confidence that it would not happen again.


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 13, 2011)

JAB said:


> I am not sure what part you are talking about, but to be clear as an NCO I don't believe it is my job to "punish" a soldier; I may carry out a punishment as ordered by my CoC. But ut is not within the scope of my duties to personally determine punishments and enact them without approval of the CoC. I might recommend and the CoC may say “do it” but that’s about as close as it gets.
> 
> If I have a soldier who has committed a crime or broken policy/regulation, depending on the offense made, I will counsel him and make my recommendation (i.e. corrective training or I will recommend punishment to the CoC). Personally I do not recommend what punishment I think the soldier needs, I simply state I believe he needs to be punished and leave it to the CoC. If they ask me for a recommendation on how far to go with the punishment I will talk it over with the CoC and determine my recommendation based on several factors (i.e past performance and issues, severity of the offense and likelihood for it to happen again).
> 
> ...


 
Arguing the semantics of what constitutes punishment and what constitutes corrective training is for the legal crowd.  I don't care one way or another.

My experience is that you do indeed recommend a punishment to the Command while you escort the soldier for the reading.

Your story on what you would do sounds like a great plan for an ineffective leader in a non-CAMOS that's not vested in the mentoring of a future leader. Extra PT is always a good choice before and on top of whatever UCMJ follows.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 13, 2011)

Florida173 said:


> Arguing the semantics of what constitutes punishment and what constitutes corrective training is for the legal crowd. I don't care one way or another.
> 
> Take that stand when you are standing on the carpet for scuffing up a joe, while throwing sand in his face, that later killed himself in a combat zone.:cool:
> 
> ...



Extra PT is great for simple bullshit (on spot corrections, ect), but when there is an actual shortfall in training you need to correct the problem. You do that by identifying the problem; developing a retraining (or corrective) program (with some suck mixed in) and you implement it until the correction is made. Pushups will not fix falling asleep on guard duty, pushups doesn’t change the fact that you had a security breach and now have to report it, pushups does nothing for this situation at all.

When a soldier puts not only “you” but everyone who is relying on him for security at risk, it’s not leadership development time, it is get security up, report, check, confirm and check again time. Afterwards, if you are given the opportunity to correct the problem with your soldier, by all means do what you think is right. I can tell you from personal experience that pushups are not going to fix it, but run your soldiers how you see fit…


----------



## Florida173 (Sep 13, 2011)

JAB said:


> Extra PT is great for simple bullshit (on spot corrections, ect), but when there is an actual shortfall in training you need to correct the problem. You do that by identifying the problem; developing a retraining (or corrective) program (with some suck mixed in) and you implement it until the correction is made. Pushups will not fix falling asleep on guard duty, pushups doesn’t change the fact that you had a security breach and now have to report it, pushups does nothing for this situation at all.
> 
> When a soldier puts not only “you” but everyone who is relying on him for security at risk, it’s not leadership development time, it is get security up, report, check, confirm and check again time. Afterwards, if you are given the opportunity to correct the problem with your soldier, by all means do what you think is right. I can tell you from personal experience that pushups are not going to fix it, but run your soldiers how you see fit…


 
Please don't take any of it personal.. I misspoke before and after reading it back I can see where the tone is. Coming back from the attending the debates last night and I was a bit tired.

I'd imagine that the Marine leadership incorporated some sort of group punishment that brought reprisals, or the Marines were engaging in some self policing that went further back then the guard incident.

I can't disagree with your last comment there.  I'm the product of creative discipline when I fucked up, bit I think that pushups probably won't fix anything. I work at the COCOM and TSOC levels as a contractor and a guardsmen, respectively, and I've never seen any extra PT at the Joint level.  Unless it is being done behind the scenes.


----------



## TLDR20 (Sep 13, 2011)

No one here has ever fallen asleep on fire guard? Or radio watch? Or sitting in a patrol base in the heat after walking for hours? If you haven't you haven't sucked bad enough. What they did to this guy was not the right thing. Blaming these guys for his killing himself is also fucking wrong. He made a choice and he is now dead for it. I don't have anything positive to say, but I know I have fallen asleep before. Is that unforgivable? I don't think so, nobody stepped on my chest or beat my ass either.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 13, 2011)

Florida173 said:


> Please don't take any of it personal.. I misspoke before and after reading it back I can see where the tone is. Coming back from the attending the debates last night and I was a bit tired.
> 
> I'd imagine that the Marine leadership incorporated some sort of group punishment that brought reprisals, or the Marines were engaging in some self policing that went further back then the guard incident.
> 
> I can't disagree with your last comment there. I'm the product of creative discipline when I fucked up, bit I think that pushups probably won't fix anything. I work at the COCOM and TSOC levels as a contractor and a guardsmen, respectively, and I've never seen any extra PT at the Joint level. Unless it is being done behind the scenes.


 
No worries brother, no harm no foul.;)



cback0220 said:


> No one here has ever fallen asleep on fire guard? Or radio watch? Or sitting in a patrol base in the heat after walking for hours? If you haven't you haven't sucked bad enough. What they did to this guy was not the right thing. Blaming these guys for his killing himself is also fucking wrong. He made a choice and he is now dead for it. I don't have anything positive to say, but I know I have fallen asleep before. Is that unforgivable? I don't think so, nobody stepped on my chest or beat my ass either.



I understand where you are coming from, and yes I have nodded off after a long ass patrol while pulling security. However, that was in training and I have never done it in a combat zone especially pulling guard in FOB/COP.

I would not allow myself to fall asleep in FOB/COP while on guard, and I would recommend UCMJ on anyone who did allow themselves to fall asleep on guard in a FOB/COP. Why? Because some other soldier can lose his life over it, and to me that is 110% unacceptable to allow a brother to die because you are fucking tired. It’s too damn easy to call the SOG and say I am falling asleep and need a break, cup of coffee, ect. There is no excuse in that environment…

Training is a totally different story and in that environment I would probably use some corrective training and keep it at my level. Fire or radio guard would probably be a quick ass chewing followed with “you just got the next shift as well dumbass” while I checked on you every 15 minutes requiring you to recite your general orders, or some stupid shit like that.


----------



## Scotth (Sep 17, 2011)

I think when you pour sand on someones face and put a boot to the head on your fellow soldier, if that is what actually happened, you have crossed the line from seeking corrective action to seeking retribution.

I think there was a whole bunch of fail for the situation to get to this point. The dead Marine failed his brothers and they failed him as well.


----------



## JBS (Sep 17, 2011)

A sad story. The worst part- perhaps most ironic, in my opinion- is the NCO's_ (if they were NCO's)_ who slapped this young kid around were _probably_ trying to save him from potentially career ending formal action. If you are a young combat Marine and you get written up, especially for this kind of infraction, you are done. The Corps' culture is unforgiving when it comes to dereliction of duty, and there is no greater failure than to fail your brothers.  I would be willing to bet those NCO's or other Marines were trying their best to get this kid up to speed, and they simply lacked proper judgement on how to do it. They probably also were unable to recognize the state of mind for the young Marine who was the subject of discipline. I do know there are such things as cases when informal punishment has been dished out to young Marines instead of formal career ending punishment; where the subject of such correction has been mature enough to recognize it, the end result is a grateful warrior who adjusts, learns from their mistake and moves on.

But the Marine Corps is also unforgiving when it comes to hazing, and those who were involved will undoubtedly have the hammer dropped on them as well. All in all, everyone loses.

I pray for the families of all involved.


----------



## x SF med (Sep 17, 2011)

JBS - well said - 2 wrongs don't make a right (even though 3 lefts do).  I understand the local punishment/corrective action statement too - BUT, it is stated that this Marine had been found asleep on guard multiple times in the past few months - the time for local/non judicial punishment was long passed - he should have been medically evaluated and/or removed from duty...  his fellow Marines and the NCOs were also wrong in their response/actions.   And UCMJ calls for very strict punishments (up to death) for dereliction that could harm other servicemen during a declared war/conflict.

This is a precipitous slope - it appears there were failures of judgement all around - and we still do not have all of the facts.


----------

