# US Navy Grants 48,000 Sailors a Fitness Pardon...



## ThunderHorse (Dec 23, 2017)

Navy grants fitness amnesty to 48,000 sailors who failed test

Lol Whut?


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## Devildoc (Dec 23, 2017)

Not sure what I make of this. The Navy really does need to update and modernize its body fat and fitness regulations, and a lot of the people they were forcing was it's just stupid. But 48,000? Really??


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## BloodStripe (Dec 23, 2017)

I've seen about a 300lb Ensign. How does that happen? Whatever happened to PT being good for unit cohesion, discipline, and morale?


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 24, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> I've seen about a 300lb Ensign. How does that happen? Whatever happened to PT being good for unit cohesion, discipline, and morale?



The older I get, the more I realize that the military is not the mystique organization I once believed.  Similar to the civilian world, the military is full of 'bosses' trying to keep their jobs and maybe get promoted once in a while.  That's not going to happen when you are short handed...regardless of the reason.  So if Ensign Blutowski can still fit in his chair and run the radio....cool....everyone above knows he's a fat ass, but they're in the same boat (figuratively and literally) so there's no pressure there either.  A wink, a new regulation, and everyone is meets their manpower quota.

And THAT'S how the military ruined Christmas, my friends.


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## Ranger Psych (Dec 24, 2017)

Show me a naval profession other than Teams that actually necessitates daily hamster ball training, or isn't better served by the bane of fitness tests across the DOD... lifting fucking weights?

Just like the USAF, the Navy really has few jobs that actually require even a medium level of fitness, and/or couldn't honestly be manned by disabled individuals otherwise (amputees, specifically).


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## AWP (Dec 24, 2017)

After reading about the sailor's actions in the wake of the recent ship collisions (plus other damage control efforts on Navy ships), I think fitness and waist size matters for those folks. Across the branches (can't speak for the Marines) there are a lot of jobs that don't need track and field stars. The weight (pun gratefully accepted by not intended) placed on PT scores in the Army is ridiculous. You can be an absolute turd with a 300 PT score and go a long, long way in the Army.


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## BloodStripe (Dec 24, 2017)

Sure, same thing with the Marine Corps. However, making your sailors do 30mins of PT a day, with someone who is actually fit leading it, will not only help the Navy cut down on health costs and fewer Sailors on light duty,  but it will also increase their ability to learn and retain information better according to Harvard. Regular exercise changes the brain to improve memory, thinking skills - Harvard Health Blog


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 24, 2017)

My french professor was an SF SGM, and he would quote one of his old SGM's in the class: "You can fix almost all human problems with PT."  The research behind daily exercise is pretty clear.  I understand not being able to do organized PT while underway.  However, while in homeport 30 minutes of running and 30 minutes of calisthenics would help out their population significantly.  But I guess culturally we knew what was going on when they did an episode of JAG on a kid who exceeded the BMI standards...he was also fat.


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## Gunz (Dec 24, 2017)

Its been a long time since anybody's had to abandon a sinking ship and swim for their lives through burning oil slicks in shark-infested waters.


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 24, 2017)

I sort of wonder how fit our forces would be if the money actually did go away every time they talk of sequestration.  IE, no money to train in the field except for yelling bang bang.  Back to before the Pershing Expedition and the inter-war years you had competitive company athletics for conditioning marches for almost all of your PT.  So if we went back to every Soldier having to be on an athletic team per company element and three days a week of legit practice and the other with marches.  It's an interesting idea...and I almost thought we went that way.  And then sequestration hit and my unit was still in the field testing all kinds of whoonya as the NIE brigade for BMC.


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## SpitfireV (Dec 24, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Its been a long time since anybody's had to abandon a sinking ship and swim for their lives through burning oil slicks in shark-infested waters.



It's not like they haven't tried.


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## digrar (Dec 24, 2017)

Probably half of our unit physical fitness is tied up in playing sport within the Brigade. We would have aussie rules football training twice a week and a game on Thursdays, the Rugby and touch rugby dudes were doing the same thing.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 24, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> . Similar to the civilian world, the military is full of 'bosses' trying to keep their jobs and maybe get promoted once in a while. That's not going to happen when you are short handed



I appreciate FOX putting this in their headline for me.

US Navy to lower fitness standards as it looks to boost headcount


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## Grunt (Dec 24, 2017)

The body fat standard needs to be done away with and only used for those guys that fail due to being "body builder" types.

The average military member that can do the physical requirements need to be considered a pass rather than the body fat.


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## Ranger Psych (Dec 25, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Its been a long time since anybody's had to abandon a sinking ship and swim for their lives through burning oil slicks in shark-infested waters.



I thought that's what the last year was like for Navy folks dodging the Reenlistment counselors?


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## Cookie_ (Dec 25, 2017)

Agoge said:


> The body fat standard needs to be done away with and only used for those guys that fail due to being "body builder" types.
> 
> The average military member that can do the physical requirements need to be considered a pass rather than the body fat.


Get out of here with your common sense argument. You know the military can't have that. /sarcasm


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## Devildoc (Dec 26, 2017)

A good friend of mine, a former corpsman, went to OCS and became a boat driver (SWO).  When they are deployed and at sea, it is legit non-stop: 8-12 hour watches, paperwork, counseling, meetings, preparing for watch...when he's at sea he sleeps maybe 5 hours a night.  And that's most sailors.  I can see how the ol' waistband might expand a bit.  Now, ashore, different ballgame.  But for the 60% of the Navy who are ashore, there really is no excuse to _not_ be 'in regs.'  But the regs are notoriously outdated and unscientific and really screws otherwise good sailors' careers, so yeah, I am OK with changing it up.


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 26, 2017)

Agoge said:


> The body fat standard needs to be done away with and only used for those guys that fail due to being "body builder" types.
> 
> The average military member that can do the physical requirements need to be considered a pass rather than the body fat.



I disagree, I've never had a "bodybuilder type" fail the tape test.  Only the rolly pollies.  And to be honest, if they do, and their 1SG puts them on the program, their 1SG needs to be hit over the head with a frying pan. (If you can see abs, you're definitely within standards)


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## BloodStripe (Dec 26, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> A good friend of mine, a former corpsman, went to OCS and became a boat driver (SWO).  When they are deployed and at sea, it is legit non-stop: 8-12 hour watches, paperwork, counseling, meetings, preparing for watch...when he's at sea he sleeps maybe 5 hours a night.  And that's most sailors.  I can see how the ol' waistband might expand a bit.  Now, ashore, different ballgame.  But for the 60% of the Navy who are ashore, there really is no excuse to _not_ be 'in regs.'  But the regs are notoriously outdated and unscientific and really screws otherwise good sailors' careers, so yeah, I am OK with changing it up.



How many ships at one time are out to sea? 40ish? So let's say out of the 326k active Sailors,  roughly 17k are at sea, or roughly 5%. Most sailors are on shore duty anyways, or they catch the right cycle and never complete a tour at sea. The lack of pt is a cultural issue, not a duty issue.


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## Grunt (Dec 26, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> I disagree, I've never had a "bodybuilder type" fail the tape test.  Only the rolly pollies.  And to be honest, if they do, and their 1SG puts them on the program, their 1SG needs to be hit over the head with a frying pan. (If you can see abs, you're definitely within standards)



That's ok, you can disagree because that doesn't make it false. I saw it a couple of times and knew some dudes that failed because of so-called body fat causing them to need waivers.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 26, 2017)

Agoge said:


> That's ok, you can disagree because that doesn't make it false. I saw it a couple of times and knew some dudes that failed because of so-called body fat causing them to need waivers.



Yep.  One of my buddies and I were doing Cybergenics together (All the rage in the 90's) and he turned into a freeking beast.  Built like a brick shit house, and constantly catching shit for his weight....even though the dude could PT his ass off....he literally pulled me up the last quarter mile of Mt. Motherfucker after we partied too hard the night before and I was looking like I was going to get tossed on the Truck.  Nope, Bobby told me to grab his pack, threatened an ass-whupping to beat all ass-whupping's if I let go, and pulled me up that mountain.  I love that dude.

<edited for grammar>


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## Grunt (Dec 26, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Yep.  Me and one of my buddies were doing Cybergenics together (All the rage in the 90's) and he turned into a freeking beast.  Built like a brick shit house, and constantly catching shit for his weight....even though the dude could PT his ass off....and he literally pulled me up the last quarter mile of Mt. Motherfucker after we partied too hard the night before and I was looking like I was going to get tossed on the Truck.  Nope, Bobby told me to grab his pack, threatened as ass-whupping to beat all ass-whupping's if I let go, and pulled me up that mountain.  I love that dude.



It was a common thing in the Marine Corps. I find it odd for someone to say they disagree with it because they never saw it. Oh well....


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## Devildoc (Dec 26, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> How many ships at one time are out to sea? 40ish? So let's say out of the 326k active Sailors,  roughly 17k are at sea, or roughly 5%. Most sailors are on shore duty anyways, or they catch the right cycle and never complete a tour at sea. The lack of pt is a cultural issue, not a duty issue.



I agree, and I disagree. I think regardless of your job it is largely a cultural issue. But for some people for that particular PRT cycle can be a bust, and I think for those people it should not be held against them for that reason.  

But I absolutely agree that it is foremost a cultural issue. I had an OIC who wanted us to play tennis and badminton for PT.


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 27, 2017)

Agoge said:


> It was a common thing in the Marine Corps. I find it odd for someone to say they disagree with it because they never saw it. Oh well....



We have multiple tests in the Army now to do deal with this.  If a guy is actually fit and fails tape he can go to the hospital for an immersion pool test.  Get Printout, submit in MedPros and bring back to your command.

I've heard plenty of stories from the 80s Army and Marine Corps where thick studs were kicked out and fat slobs remained because of the tape test.  I've just never seen it.  But as I said, if a 1SG is starting paperwork on a stud who's 12% bodyfat, but the 1SG has a gut we have a problem.


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## Grunt (Dec 27, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> We have multiple tests in the Army now to do deal with this.  If a guy is actually fit and fails tape he can go to the hospital for an immersion pool test.  Get Printout, submit in MedPros and bring back to your command.
> 
> I've heard plenty of stories from the 80s Army and Marine Corps where thick studs were kicked out and fat slobs remained because of the tape test.  I've just never seen it.  But as I said, if a 1SG is starting paperwork on a stud who's 12% bodyfat, but the 1SG has a gut we have a problem.



I can agree with that. I do hate the fact that there are First Sergeants out there that are willing to do that very thing.


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## DA SWO (Dec 27, 2017)

PT Tests are a force shaping tool and nothing else.

You can either do your job or not.

We had a fat-body in the SCIF at ARSOUTH who was gleefully thrown at ETS, best analyst we had.  The look on the Company Commanders face when he walked in Monday wearing civilian clothes was awesome.

When OIF/OEF were in full swing the Army had no issues bring fat-bodies in from the IRR and deploying their asses.

You can do your job or not, that's what should count,

Full disclosure, I never passed the AF cycle test,  they did fuck up my left knee trying to administer the test to me though.
While not passing the cycle test I did manage to pass the ST Test; 3 mile run, pushups, pullups/chin ups, sit ups and and a Ruck March.


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## Marauder06 (Dec 27, 2017)

AWP said:


> After reading about the sailor's actions in the wake of the recent ship collisions (plus other damage control efforts on Navy ships), I think fitness and waist size matters for those folks. Across the branches (can't speak for the Marines) there are a lot of jobs that don't need track and field stars. The weight (pun gratefully accepted by not intended) placed on PT scores in the Army is ridiculous. You can be an absolute turd with a 300 PT score and go a long, long way in the Army.



I agree.  That's one of the problems with our system, a PT test is one of the few quantifiable, easy-to-understand things that factors into an evaluation.  "Oh here is a number, I can compare numbers."  This is another reason why the Army needs to do away with gender-segregated PT test scales.  One standard for every body.  Grade into bands for age if necessary, but don't sex-segregate.  Men and women compete against each other for evaluations, promotions, and assignments.  We need apples-to-apples comparisons if we're going to factor PT into the equation.


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## reed11b (Dec 27, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> I disagree, I've never had a "bodybuilder type" fail the tape test.  Only the rolly pollies.  And to be honest, if they do, and their 1SG puts them on the program, their 1SG needs to be hit over the head with a frying pan. (If you can see abs, you're definitely within standards)


I have seen many. Perhaps CAV doesn't have monsters like the infantry does. Regardless, if they can meet the physical standard,  I don't care if they look pretty in formation. Period.



ThunderHorse said:


> We have multiple tests in the Army now to do deal with this.  If a guy is actually fit and fails tape he can go to the hospital for an immersion pool test.  Get Printout, submit in MedPros and bring back to your command.
> 
> I've heard plenty of stories from the 80s Army and Marine Corps where thick studs were kicked out and fat slobs remained because of the tape test.  I've just never seen it.  But as I said, if a 1SG is starting paperwork on a stud who's 12% bodyfat, but the 1SG has a gut we have a problem.


I have NEVER seen units make it that easy. The soldier always has to jump through flaming hoops to make it happen and then it's only good until they change units and have start the BS all over again.



Marauder06 said:


> I agree.  That's one of the problems with our system, a PT test is one of the few quantifiable, easy-to-understand things that factors into an evaluation.  "Oh here is a number, I can compare numbers."  This is another reason why the Army needs to do away with gender-segregated PT test scales.  One standard for every body.  Grade into bands for age if necessary, but don't sex-segregate.  Men and women compete against each other for evaluations, promotions, and assignments.  We need apples-to-apples comparisons if we're going to factor PT into the equation.


Why age bands? Do I have to work less physically as a 42 year old squad leader then a 24 year old squad leader does? I mean don't get me wrong, as an old NG fat bastard, the age bands make life less stressful, but that doesn't make it right.


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 27, 2017)

reed11b said:


> I have NEVER seen units make it that easy. The soldier always has to jump through flaming hoops to make it happen and then it's only good until they change units and have start the BS all over again.



In my troop...hell in both squadrons I was in, we didn't have studs ever pop on tape.  So, the filthy bodybuilders who were 6-4, 240, they passed tape.  The 5-6 240s however we fat slobs.  Studs look good in formation, slobs do not.  

But yes, you are correct that units make it a PITA.  Got it.  I've seen plenty of 1SGs who are also the problem.  The amount of hoops that you have to jump through to get rid of a fat slob, if you don't do it right, well you have to start over.


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## Gunz (Dec 27, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> We have multiple tests in the Army now to do deal with this.  If a guy is actually fit and fails tape he can go to the hospital for an immersion pool test.  Get Printout, submit in MedPros and bring back to your command.
> 
> I've heard plenty of stories from the 80s Army and Marine Corps where thick studs were kicked out and fat slobs remained because of the tape test.  I've just never seen it.  But as I said, if a 1SG is starting paperwork on a stud who's 12% bodyfat, but the 1SG has a gut we have a problem.



Not in Marine Infantry. Maybe some old Gunny's with beer bellies but not the rank and file. We were lean and fit but nobody was ripped by today's standard because we didn't have access to weights.


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## Devildoc (Dec 28, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Not in Marine Infantry. Maybe some old Gunny's with beer bellies but not the rank and file. We were lean and fit but nobody was ripped by today's standard because we didn't have access to weights.



The dilemma we had in medical is the Marine leadership would send the Marines to us to be taped...along with a back-channel-off-the-books communication with what Marines would be helpful to the unit to have in standard versus not.  They were fully Ok using the old-boy network to make sure their friends passed as well as blackball someone they simply didn't like.


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## Grunt (Dec 28, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> The dilemma we had in medical is the Marine leadership would send the Marines to us to be taped...along with a back-channel-off-the-books communication with what Marines would be helpful to the unit to have in standard versus not.  They were fully Ok using the old-boy network to make sure their friends passed as well as blackball someone they simply didn't like.



Trash like that is what aggravated me the most. Those people needed a well-aimed throat punch!

There were a lot of good Marines that had to jump through hoops to keep their jobs because they were power lifters. They were war horses, but had to play the game in order to keep their job.


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## Gunz (Dec 28, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> I've seen about a 300lb Ensign. How does that happen? Whatever happened to PT being good for unit cohesion, discipline, and morale?



Bro, there were some fat slob sailors back in the day, long hair, beards, slack discipline...courtesy of Zumwalt. Thankfully those days at least are gone.


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## Devildoc (Dec 28, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Bro, there were some fat slob sailors back in the day, long hair, beards, slack discipline...courtesy of Zumwalt. Thankfully those days at least are gone.



Don't be busting on the beards.  Fat slobs, yes...beards, no.  That's a naval tradition I'd like to see again.


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## Gunz (Dec 28, 2017)

When your a fat out-of-shape slob who looks like 400 pounds of shit in a 200 pound bag, a beard doesn't help.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 29, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> Don't be busting on the beards.  Fat slobs, yes...beards, no.  That's a naval tradition I'd like to


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## SpitfireV (Dec 29, 2017)

Being a bit fat, long hair and beards but being a strong bastard are navy traditions that go back to at least the 1600s.


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## Gunz (Dec 30, 2017)

All right, call off the dogs. The point I'm trying to make is that the sailors my fellow Marines and I encountered on our various shipboard adventures--which included a 3 month Carib MEU--were not exactly what we'd call "tough." They weren't exactly the bearded warrior types we all admire today. Admiral Zumwalt had relaxed grooming regs and discipline and many enlisted types were stretching those relaxed standards to the max in order to appear the least military-like. This was at a time when military guys weren't cool in the eyes of much of the public, especially their age-group peers. In other words, they couldn't get fucking laid when they went home unless they looked like hippies. The Navy I witnessed, with the notable exclusion of green-side combat Corpsmen and UDT/SEALs, at least among the sailor ranks, was a slovenly mess.

I have nothing against beards and respect a nurtured growth on any man's (or woman's) face...but it takes more than facial hair to make a man competent in his duties. And in my biased view, it offends my sense of correct military alignment and combat readiness to see any serving military person look like an out-of-shape turd. I'm not saying everybody needs to be ripped, just fit enough to have respect for the uniform and the service they represent.


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## Devildoc (Dec 30, 2017)

@Ocoka , Zumwalt was an embarrassment to the Navy with his desire to "reform" a war-footing, combat-oriented Navy.  Most of his social engineering policies we're eventually reversed.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 5, 2018)

Not the USN, but a bit related: Spanish army's elite La Legión regiment put on diet over obesity fears


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