# Guns in Church???



## The91Bravo (Dec 11, 2007)

This thread was started a couple months ago, and lost in the ether of a server failure or something like that.

But, with the recent shootings in Colorado, I felt it necessary to resurrect (no pun intended) the question of Guns in Church.

Please post your sincere opinion of this topic, and I intend on formally motioning that our church create a security team, and your opinions will be greatly appreciated.

Before the Col. shootings, I had been faced with this question by a member of my church that I greatly respect, who asked that I not bring the weapon (I was a handgun carry permit holder at the time, before becoming a Deputy Sheriff) into the church, but leave it in the vehicle.

I replied that I would not leave it in my vehicle, and that it was my responsibility to protect my family, and that I was legally allowed to do so.



So, what do you all think?

I appreciate it.

Steve

p.s. please try to keep the language clean (if you can ;) ) since I may use a copy of some of these points to make my case.


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## ROS (Dec 11, 2007)

One of the most, if not the most, dangerous factions in the world is comprised of religious zealots. It encompasses not just one religion, but all. That being the case, church or worship of any kind is a very dangerous place to be.

I see no logical reason why, when licensing laws allow a holder to carry in public places for the protection of one's self, a church should be any different. If anything, I'd be more motivated to carry there than elsewhere. 

I'm a firm believer that there were several other Apostles, and their names included Smith, Wesson, Heckler, Koch, and Ruger.


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## The91Bravo (Dec 11, 2007)

ROS said:


> I'm a firm believer that there were several other Apostles, and their names included Smith, Wesson, Heckler, Koch, and Ruger.



I agree.  And there were no Apostles named Glock... LOL


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## Sdiver (Dec 11, 2007)

ROS said:


> One of the most, if not the most, dangerous factions in the world is comprised of religious zealots. It encompasses not just one religion, but all. That being the case, church or worship of any kind is a very dangerous place to be.
> 
> I see no logical reason why, when licensing laws allow a holder to carry in public places for the protection of one's self, a church should be any different. If anything, I'd be more motivated to carry there than elsewhere.
> 
> I'm a firm believer that there were several other Apostles, and their names included Smith, Wesson, Heckler, Koch, and Ruger.



X's 2

If you are licensed to carry, carry anywhere. What better place to find a "flock of sheep" than at a church.....any church.

:2c:


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## ROS (Dec 11, 2007)

The91Bravo said:


> I agree.  And there were no Apostles named Glock... LOL




Absolutely not. :) I'm not a Glock fan, t'all. I worship the Archangels H and K.

On a side note, were you able to resolve the issue with your church member and your carry piece?


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## The91Bravo (Dec 11, 2007)

ROS, SDiver,

Thank you for your opinions, I appreciate it.

Steve


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## RackMaster (Dec 11, 2007)

I think you should get yourself one of those shiny pocket pistols and ensure your family and friends are safe. :2c:

Here's a thread about the topic. ;)
http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=8196&highlight=pocket


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## Gypsy (Dec 11, 2007)

The91Bravo said:


> Before the Col. shootings, I had been faced with this question by a member of my church that I greatly respect, who asked that I not bring the weapon (I was a handgun carry permit holder at the time, before becoming a Deputy Sheriff) into the church, but leave it in the vehicle.
> 
> I replied that I would not leave it in my vehicle, and that it was my responsibility to protect my family, and that I was legally allowed to do so.



Wonder what his opinion is now.  

If you have a permit, you should carry.


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## The91Bravo (Dec 11, 2007)

Also, now that I am a LEO, I have an even greater responsibility.


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## Sdiver (Dec 11, 2007)

The91Bravo said:


> Also, now that I am a LEO, I have an even greater responsibility.



BINGO !!!!!


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## The91Bravo (Dec 11, 2007)

Sdiver said:


> BINGO !!!!!



Dang it!! More burdens for these old shoulders..


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## Sdiver (Dec 11, 2007)

The91Bravo said:


> Dang it!! More burdens for these old shoulders..



They'll get stronger as time goes on.

Remember what it says on your badge, or your patrol car, or on one of the walls around your station house......*To Serve and Protect*.

Bubba, whether you like it or not, you're now a *Sheep Dog*. But fear not, there are many others out there, tending the flocks with you.


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## The91Bravo (Dec 11, 2007)

SD,
I am ready.  I have inserted myself into a few situations, this SheepDog is ready to hunt. ;)


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## EATIII (Dec 12, 2007)

The91Bravo said:
			
		

> bump



you want to dance or more reasurance?;)

Carry at all times! God will love you, and so will the congreation when you save their asses!:2c:


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## The91Bravo (Dec 12, 2007)

EATIII said:


> you want to dance or more reasurance?;)
> 
> Carry at all times! God will love you, and so will the congreation when you save their asses!:2c:




That is why I carry... to be a HERO!!!! 

Now I just need an assclown badguy to show up... not!


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## rangerpsych (Dec 13, 2007)

My brother-in-law got stabbed on the way home, a block and a half, to his home.

Lone gunmen, and cooperative gunmen, go to where the most opportune targets are. 

It's like comparing guidon theft from a Ranger company to the engineers down the street.  Noone's going to try to steal the one where you'll have 120 goons actually able to catch you. 

people have to realize no matter how much you want to think otherwise, law enforcement is and always will be primarily reactive.  Cops on duty almost never stop a crime before or during it's comission (not counting vehicle related stuff)... 

You have to protect YOURSELF.


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## Cabbage Head (Dec 13, 2007)

One thing to bring up, the mear carrying of a concealed firearm is useless in the hands of those without the warrior spirit and ability to use it.  Follow that up with having the education to know just when to use it.

Everyone that walks around armed with a concealed carry permit or a 
LEO off duty should aspire to be the "one", for as Heraclitus said:

"Out of every 100 men, 10 should not even be here, 80 are nothing but targets, 9 are real fighters, and we are lucky to have them, for they the battle make." "Ah, but the ONE, ONE of them is a WARRIOR, and he will bring the others back."

A firearm is useless at home locked away in a safe when trouble comes to you on the street.  Carry every day and be ready to use it when the time comes.

Be the "one", do your duty and come home alive.


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## surgicalcric (Dec 13, 2007)

Sdiver said:


> ...Remember what it says on your badge, or your patrol car, or on one of the walls around your station house......*To Serve and Protect*...



Herein is a fundamental flaw in the way society thinks.  While it may read "protect and serve" on a LEO's vehicle, badge, etc it is ultimately the responsibility of the citizen to protect himself.  Placing the burden solely on the shoulders of LE gives society someone to blame.  

I carry wherever I go when I am home.  The responsibility for the welfare and security of my family rests on my shoulders alone.

Crip


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## pardus (Dec 13, 2007)

surgicalcric said:


> Herein is a fundamental flaw in the way society thinks.  While it may read "protect and serve" on a LEO's vehicle, badge, etc it is ultimately the responsibility of the citizen to protect himself.  Placing the burden solely on the shoulders of LE gives society someone to blame.
> 
> I carry wherever I go when I am home.  The responsibility for the welfare and security of my family rests on my shoulders alone.
> 
> Crip



Yep, you are a fool living in a dream world if you think the law/police will protect you when you need it.

One of my favourite sayings is a Russian one...

'Plan for the worst, hope for the best.'


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## WillBrink (Dec 13, 2007)

The91Bravo said:


> So, what do you all think?
> 
> I appreciate it.
> 
> Steve


 
I think that unless God himself is going to put up a burning bush in front of the bad guy as he attempts to enter the church, I will assume church is no different than any other place a nut can show up and do me or mine harm...Remember, who stopped this dirt bag at the church? I civi with a CCW the media is calling a "security guard." 

It’s really semantics here. She was an ex LEO (actually fired from the job I have read, but that’s here nor there…) about a decade ago, and was a non-paid volunteer at the church who has a CCW. Thus, is she a “security officer” or a simple CCW holder who helps out with security? Proponents of CCW are going to claim the latter. 

The media and anti CCW types will hang on the fact she was ex LEO (and are claiming she was “highly trained”) and a “security guard” because they loath to actually simply admit a civilian with a CCW who was there as a non paid volunteer to help guard the church after the earlier shooting, took out a BG, prevented many deaths, and proved armed people make a positive difference.

If anyone has facts that counter the above, by all means correct me. So far, the above is what I have gathered so far.

Yes, it’s a shame there are these loopholes for the media and antis to grab onto to avoid the simple fact this was a civilian CCW shooting of a BG, but that’s exactly what it was from the info I have gathered…

Now, compare the above outcome to the church he stopped at prior to this one, or the mall shooting the week before. 

Below are some comments pulled from a write up by a guy who was not far from the shooter at the mall. It’s a long read, but interesting. A few key comments of note he makes in his write up:


“Honestly, and as God as my witness, when I saw him shooting and as watched for a few seconds trying to figure out what he was going to do and what I should do, the thought that when through my mind was, “If I had a gun, I have a perfect shot.”

And

“When I realized that I had no gun, fear instantly struck me, along with anger, and severe panic.”

And

“I have completed the training class, but I keep putting off applying for the permit because I think it is useless. In the places I would need a gun most, I am not allowed to have it. I will not be a person living in fear and not go to Van Maur because they don’t allow guns.”

And

“I am very angry at the city of Omaha and the mall for their stupid laws that nearly cost me my life. The laws protected no one, and in my opinion, caused people to die.”


For those who wish to read this first hand account, I found it here:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=322156


So, we have “real world” comparisons to what happens when an armed civilian is on scene to respond to such a situation vs what happens when the only armed person there is the BG, which reflects the data that exists perfectly. It’s not rocket science folks, but some sure make it seem that way…



ROS said:


> .
> 
> I'm a firm believer that there were several other Apostles, and their names included Smith, Wesson, Heckler, Koch, and Ruger.


 
Those are all minor deities. JMB was the one and only God…:)


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## pardus (Dec 13, 2007)

WillBrink said:


> So, we have “real world” comparisons to what happens when an armed civilian is on scene to respond to such a situation vs what happens when the only armed person there is the BG, which reflects the data that exists perfectly. It’s not  rocket science folks, but some sure make it seem that way…



Good post Will


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## SpitfireV (Dec 13, 2007)

If I could carry, I probably would.


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## Gypsy (Dec 16, 2007)

Interesting commentary.  

http://www.townhall.com/Columnists/...cks_why_churches_should_not_be_gun_free_zones

I think I liked this part best.



> I think if Jesus were placed in a similar situation as the New Life Church security guard, he would whip out his Glock and double tap the center mass of any wannabe killer who was attempting to put a bullet in one of his defenseless disciples.
> 
> I know that doesn’t fit with your bearded lady, soft focused, Precious Moments figurine version of Jesus that you’ve been worshipping for the last twenty years, but it does square with the Christ of my Bible. (By the way: I read The Redneck Common Sense, Good People Live, Bad People Die version of the Bible. It’s printed in Texas, and you can get a copy at www.You’dBetterWakeTheHellUp.com).


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## The91Bravo (Dec 16, 2007)

Gypsy, 

Thanks darlin, I needed that ;)

Steve

BTW- I am in the infancy of creating a 'covert' security team for our church now.  I need to know if anyone has any motorola walkie talkies with earbuds, and cuff mics for sale.  I need three.


Edit:  Used and cheap, preferred...

Edit:  THE RADIOS that is ;)


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## rangerpsych (Dec 17, 2007)

a better bet in this day and age, at least if you want to keep some semblance of modern reality would be simply using cellphones on vibrate with bluetooth headsets. Put your buddies on speed dial, and you wouldn't look so out of place as compared to being johnny high-speed with headsets and molle gear and crap... lol

people don't think anything of cell headsets,  where earbuds and cuff mics scream security.  If you have a hardon for an earpiece, get one that is both mic/earpiece without a boom.


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## ROS (Dec 18, 2007)

rangerpsych said:


> a better bet in this day and age, at least if you want to keep some semblance of modern reality would be simply using cellphones on vibrate with bluetooth headsets. Put your buddies on speed dial, and you wouldn't look so out of place as compared to being johnny high-speed with headsets and molle gear and crap... lol
> 
> people don't think anything of cell headsets,  where earbuds and cuff mics scream security.  If you have a hardon for an earpiece, get one that is both mic/earpiece without a boom.


Genius.


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## SpitfireV (Dec 18, 2007)

Could look at wireless options too, they're covert but bloody expensive.


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## gunslinger (Dec 21, 2007)

I had a minister approach me today and ask about concealed weapons permits for members of his church to protect his congregation.    Damn straight.  Get some preacher.


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## pardus (Dec 21, 2007)

Get him to bless your weapons! :)


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## WillBrink (Dec 22, 2007)

gunslinger said:


> I had a minister approach me today and ask about concealed weapons permits for members of his church to protect his congregation.    Damn straight.  Get some preacher.



Heck, I would rather protect a church then actually attend it...:)


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## gunslinger (Dec 22, 2007)

WillBrink said:


> Heck, I would rather protect a church then actually attend it...:)


 
Yeah, me too.  I dont know this guy.  He just approached me in a restaurant to ask about this.      I was in a church for a funeral awhile back.  But other than that, no way.


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## hoepoe (Dec 22, 2007)

Great thread.

Some points to make.

Remember that Churches are not only targets for the crazy lone shooter but also terror groups. Do not post too much info here.

I would suggest that if you're forming security teams, make them overt, not covert. The more overt the better, Bad guys, no matter the reason for attacking will always go to an easier target. You want them to know YOUR Church means business and that they best go somewhere else rather than have them attack YOUR Church and you stop it with a few casualties. Let them go somewhere that is easier for them.

Regarding civvie carry in Church, if it's legal, you have a license etc. carry as you would anywhere else. Simple.
If a member of the congregation requests that you not carry, it's exactly that, a request. I'm certain he'll get over it if you don't oblige.

Have a safe and Merry Christmas all.

Hoepoe


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## pardus (Dec 22, 2007)

WillBrink said:


> Heck, I would rather protect a church then actually attend it...:)



My church has beer, a pool table, barmaids, loose women.

I love church!


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