# Whats your backup plan?



## amlove21 (May 27, 2011)

For all you SOF wanna/gonna be's out there- I know this couldn't POSSIBLY happen to you, but what happens if you go out there and don't make the cut? What if you get injured in your selection, or it turns out you just aren't ready for your services' special operations job? Have you considered the A of your PACE? How about the E?

Let's just say, for the sake of the thread, that you don't get on to a team- what then?


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## Servimus (May 27, 2011)

amlove21 said:


> For all you SOF wanna/gonna be's out there- I know this couldn't POSSIBLY happen to you, but what happens if you go out there and don't make the cut? What if you get injured in your selection, or it turns out you just aren't ready for your services' special operations job? Have you considered the A of your PACE? How about the E?
> 
> Let's just say, for the sake of the thread, that you don't get on to a team- what then?


I don't see myself as mentally incapable for the position I'm looking at. My main hurdle is a physical one, and that just takes time and discipline. Diet, exercise, rest. I'll go where they send me and I won't quit.

Injuries happen to everyone though- the weakest and the strongest. If that happens- Lick my wounds. Capitalize off knowledge gained from failure. Try again.


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## amlove21 (May 27, 2011)

Servimus said:


> I don't see myself as mentally incapable for the position I'm looking at. My main hurdle is a physical one, and that just takes time and discipline. Diet, exercise, rest. I'll go where they send me and I won't quit.
> 
> Injuries happen to everyone though- the weakest and the strongest. If that happens- Lick my wounds. Capitalize off knowledge gained from failure. Try again.



This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. From your "first post" thread intro, you want to be an Army SF guy, and you're not in the military currently. I want you to take this at face value only- but you're on the outside looking in, my friend. You have no clue what it mentally takes to be where you want to go. I hope you're bristling at that statement, because you're motivated. But I also hope there is a sting of truth. Because it's true- you know what you know from books, second hand knowledge, and stories. You don't even have the benefit of working for/with an ODA, because you are currently involved in Academia, and not the Profession of Arms.

What happens when you go to selection or the Q course, have a couple of bad days in a row, and you find yourself outprocessing and looking for a job in the Big Army? Cause I could be wrong here, but I am pretty sure that Special Forces doesn't sign your paycheck- the United States Army does. So when you say "lick your wounds", what do you mean? Cook? Cop? Intel? Infantry? Cause you aren't getting a shot again, at least not right away (in most cases).

The reason I ask is this- I didn't make it my first time. It took me 5 years and an entirely different career in the AF to end up being a PJ. I know a lot of guys that took the "hard way" in different branches of service, and they were completely unprepared because they thought "my main hurdle is a physical one, and that just takes time and discipline. I won't quit." Hey man, I dig it, and that's all well and good- and it's also piss-poor planning.

So I will ask again, because you didn't answer my question- _what is your backup plan if you don't make it?_ Because, regardless of whatever T-Shirt slogan you may have read, failure most certainly IS an option my friend.


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## Polar Bear (May 27, 2011)

Before all the wannabees hang themselves here....It is Mental and you ain't seen Mental until you have tried selection. If you are smart, there is no backup plan besides death...just telling you from empirical wisdom. I failed Mentally once, had a second chance and blew it because of a DUI.....15 June 1991, that date will live with me till the day I die, it changed my life. It took a dream from me.


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## amlove21 (May 27, 2011)

Polar Bear said:


> Before all the wannabees hang themselves here....It is Mental and you ain't seen Mental until you have tried selection. If you are smart, there is no backup plan besides death...just telling you from empirical wisdom. I failed Mentally once, had a second chance and blew it because of a DUI.....15 June 1991, that date will live with me till the day I die, it changed my life. It took a dream from me.


So I will make a concession- I will assume that every person here isn't quitting, and that they will die before you consider option #2.

But let's just, theoretically, consider option #2 for a bit. Because, as we see, unfortunate stuff happens.


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## Servimus (May 27, 2011)

amlove21 said:


> This is EXACTLY what I am talking about. From your "first post" thread intro, you want to be an Army SF guy, and you're not in the military currently. I want you to take this at face value only- but you're on the outside looking in, my friend. You have no clue what it mentally takes to be where you want to go. I hope you're bristling at that statement, because you're motivated. But I also hope there is a sting of truth. Because it's true- you know what you know from books, second hand knowledge, and stories. You don't even have the benefit of working for/with an ODA, because you are currently involved in Academia, and not the Profession of Arms.



It took me about 10 minutes to post my first comment for exactly that reason. I feel like I'm mentally capable, but I don't KNOW that I am. I am looking in from the outside and my opinion isn't worth shit because I haven't been there and I haven't done that. I can't quantify in concrete terms what it takes to do these things, because I haven't even seen them being done, let alone tried it myself. I understand this, and I remind myself of it. That being said- there have been guys in my shoes who've gotten to where they've wanted to go. That's my aim as well.



amlove21 said:


> What happens when you go to selection or the Q course, have a couple of bad days in a row, and you find yourself outprocessing and looking for a job in the Big Army? Cause I could be wrong here, but I am pretty sure that Special Forces doesn't sign your paycheck- the United States Army does. So when you say "lick your wounds", what do you mean? Cook? Cop? Intel? Infantry? Cause you aren't getting a shot again, at least not right away (in most cases).



The route I'm taking is, specifically, that of an Opt. 40 contract. It's 11B and to the infantry if I fail at some point. I don't have any problem with serving with the Infantry. I'm joining because I want to serve and if I fail on that road, I'm still serving with the Infantry. I have no problem with that. If anything I'll learn. Like you said, now I don't enjoy the benefit of experience. If I try and fail, I will. If it takes me a few years to get another shot, then so be it. A few years of more familiarity with the Army and a few years to prepare.



amlove21 said:


> The reason I ask is this- I didn't make it my first time. It took me 5 years and an entirely different career in the AF to end up being a PJ. I know a lot of guys that took the "hard way" in different branches of service, and they were completely unprepared because they thought "my main hurdle is a physical one, and that just takes time and discipline. I won't quit." Hey man, I dig it, and that's all well and good- and it's also piss-poor planning.
> 
> So I will ask again, because you didn't answer my question- _what is your backup plan if you don't make it?_ Because, regardless of whatever T-Shirt slogan you may have read, failure most certainly IS an option my friend.



Failure is an option, and that's why I am and plan to continue to work my ass off to mitigate that option. When I sign the contract, I understand fully well what that entails- failure included. I'm focused on this, but I don't have tunnel vision.


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## Servimus (May 27, 2011)

Servimus said:


> Failure is an option, and that's why I am and plan to continue to work my ass off to mitigate that option. When I sign the contract, I understand fully well what that entails- failure included. I'm focused on this, but I don't have tunnel vision.



Highlighting my last statement here.

This embodies how I see failure. I take responsibility for it. If I were to fail and I get sent someplace else, then I take responsibility for it and do my job. I don't want to dwell on that too long though. Polar Bear said that there is no other option but death. I feel the same way. When I say it, it carries considerably less weight because the "Who the fuck are you and what have you done?" factor comes in to play. That's my outlook.


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## Polar Bear (May 27, 2011)

amlove21 said:


> So I will make a concession- I will assume that every person here isn't quitting, and that they will die before you consider option #2.
> 
> But let's just, theoretically, consider option #2 for a bit. Because, as we see, unfortunate stuff happens.


 
Don't think you can, it will give you THAT thought process that I can quit, get hurt and do this. Make them take you off the playing field. Backup plan is 5 more minutes one more step, ok made it through that 5 more minutes one more step. This is just me amlove. If I had thought this way the first time my life would be different


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## amlove21 (May 27, 2011)

Servimus said:


> Highlighting my last statement here.
> 
> This embodies how I see failure. I take responsibility for it. If I were to fail and I get sent someplace else, then I take responsibility for it and do my job. I don't want to dwell on that too long though. Polar Bear said that there is no other option but death. I feel the same way. When I say it, it carries considerably less weight because the "Who the fuck are you and what have you done?" factor comes in to play. That's my outlook.


Hey, again, I dig the motivation, and it comes from a good place- but that particular stance is both unrealistic and melodramatic. You aren't actually going to kill yourself if you fail. And there are plenty of other options.

I just want to open the discussion and get your mind operating. There are times where you need to consider all contingencies; consider this as a "mission planning" exercise.


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## amlove21 (May 27, 2011)

Polar Bear said:


> Don't think you can, it will give you THAT thought process that I can quit, get hurt and do this. Make them take you off the playing field. Backup plan is 5 more minutes one more step, ok made it through that 5 more minutes one more step. This is just me amlove. If I had thought this way the first time my life would be different


Hey, no disagreements here. However, stuff happens. Again, think of it more of a mental exercise. Cause you know what the flip side of the coin is? Thinking about your no-kidding options, seeing what they are, and realizing that they are so crappy that you would rather die than accept the alternative.


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## Polar Bear (May 27, 2011)

amlove21 said:


> Hey, no disagreements here. However, stuff happens. Again, think of it more of a mental exercise. Cause you know what the flip side of the coin is? Thinking about your no-kidding options, seeing what they are, and realizing that they are so crappy that you would rather die than accept the alternative.



Then I pose this question. What do the other services offer if you fail? In the Army you are already MOS qualified.Where you go, is needs of Mother Army.


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## amlove21 (May 27, 2011)

Polar Bear said:


> Then I pose this question. What do the other services offer if you fail? In the Army you are already MOS qualified.Where you go, is needs of Mother Army.


I can only speak for the AF, but it's the same deal. However, you can sort of choose your path if you get good recommendations from the staff at Selection or in the pipeline. It all comes down to Uncle Sam- but simply throwing a dart at a list of career fields isn't exactly prudent.

And I know the Xray program is gone now- but there was a good amount of time where guys weren't MOS qualed prior to the SF route. Thats the way it is in the AF, and has been for a bit. You can come in right off the street to be a PJ with no training and no idea what other jobs are about or available.

Furthermore, is getting out an option? If SOF isn't it, are you getting out of the military? How long till you can go back and try again? What job would better prepare you for the re-attack? Get you out of pipeline schools, etc?


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## Servimus (May 27, 2011)

amlove21 said:


> Hey, again, I dig the motivation, and it comes from a good place- but that particular stance is both unrealistic and melodramatic. You aren't actually going to kill yourself if you fail.



This is a tough conversation. I see where Polar Bear is coming from, and that's what I identify with most, but I understand the pragmatic question you're posing.

Point 1: When I said "death" I definitely didn't mean I was going to kill myself! I'm just saying that "quitting" doesn't exist. Failure is possible, but if I fail, it's because I failed before I even got to selection. It's because I didn't PT hard enough, or I goofed off doing stupid shit when I should have been staying on task. While I'm at selection, "quitting" isn't even something that exists. It's not a viable option.

My best buddy is leaving for BUD/s shortly. If you want to quit, you ring the bell and put down your helmet. What we agreed on is that he wouldn't acknowledge that the "bell" even existed.That's that attitude I think is necessary in a selection environment.


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## Johca (May 27, 2011)

Interesting topic, here’s some statistics to ponder:

Ranger School (a three phase 61 day leadership course more so than a Ranger duty assignment qual course) has Average Graduation Rate since FY51 of 53%.

USAF Pararescue and CCT has a 85% to 90% attrition rate of students going through all required training needed to do the job.

USN SEALs have a 70% attrition rate at BUDs.

US Coast Guard Rescue swimmer programs and Navy SAR swimmer program typically have higher than 50% attrition rates and in some years it has been as high as 80%.

All these training programs have a must meet level of physical fitness performance to get into the training, so is the primary difficulty physical or mental? As most self-eliminate from training rather than involuntarily eliminated for failure to train it should be obvious mental /emotional fitness is as much looked for as physical fitness.

Considering studies on youth population and military recruitment claim “evidence suggests that cardiorespiratory endurance in young men has declined by approximately 10 percent since 1966” and that there is increasing occurrences of preexisting anxiety, depression, attention deficit disorder conditions, bi-polar disorders in the young adult population of graduating high school age., it would be safe to assume it’s a lot easier to adapt physically to training than mentally for more and more individuals attempting to become all that can be or desire to be. 

Considering USN SEAL selection includes an emotional screening test as does Pararescue and that a lot of physically, emotionally, and mentally demanding military occupations are moving towards emotional screening tests I have good experience reason to suggest a person can survive the physical fitness requirement much easily than the emotional and physical requirements.

So any boasting of “Injuries happen to everyone though- the weakest and the strongest. If that happens- Lick my wounds. Capitalize off knowledge gained from failure. Try again” sort of gets me laughing as physical injury cause for elimination accounts for only 1% eliminated from training for special operations occupations.


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## Servimus (May 27, 2011)

Johca said:


> So any boasting of “Injuries happen to everyone though- the weakest and the strongest. If that happens- Lick my wounds. Capitalize off knowledge gained from failure. Try again” sort of gets me laughing as physical injury cause for elimination accounts for only 1% eliminated from training for special operations occupations.



For the record- when I wrote that, it wasn't my intention to boast. If it came off that way- apologies.

Also, when I addressed injuries, I was doing just that. I don't think injuries are the biggest cause of failure in training for SOF occupations. It was brought up to me, so I addressed it and answered the question. I agree with everything you've posted.


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## amlove21 (May 27, 2011)

Johca said:


> ...entire post...



Awesome stats- where was that from? Although I was extremely surprised that only 1% were eliminated from training for physical injury, I had assumed it would be higher than that.

I am even more interested in the "Considering studies on youth population and military recruitment claim “evidence suggests that cardiorespiratory endurance in young men has declined by approximately 10 percent since 1966” statement. 

It almost seems as if to say "it actually WAS harder" in times past, at least speaking for the cardiorespiratory endurance in young men post 1966.


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## Tropicana98 (May 27, 2011)

First...like you said about all of us wannabes I'd rather die than quit. But to answer your question I said in my first post intro that I first and foremost have always wanted to be a soldier in the United States Army. So with that in mind if I end up at the needs of the Army I'm going to be the best soldier(infantryman) I can be at whatever unit that may be. I see a lot of pride in that uniform and I'll wear mine with that pride regardless of what tabs, scrolls, or beret I'm authorized to wear in addition to that.

Now on to this point. There are by my count 8 SOF-centric sites that I know of and probably more that I don't. I have over a year until I actually show up in Pre-RASP when you factor in OSUT and Airborne even if I got my Opt. 40 today. The "hard" gates to pass are available in the public forum and since I have them bookmarked I can get to that page 100 times over in the time it will take me to write this. I already have a used ruck which I bought over the internet staring me in the face just trying to get enough money for some boots. I started Crossfit and even though it's not an end all be all program I have read enough from verifieds across this site and others that it is good stuff for preparation as far as true functional fitness goes. Combine that with running and maybe even progressing to Military Athlete by the time I ship and the physical will work itself out because from what you all say its not the physical that gets people anyway. I have this mentor section to read and armyranger.com will provide a mentor when I officially sign, that's a wealth of knowledge if I have ever seen one. I actually even know a former 1st batt guy who was wounded on deployment because he's buddies with a kid I played football with here at school, his words "It has nothing to do with down here its all up here." I have all of this at my disposal and if I can't get through 8 weeks for the rest of my life for something that I claim to be my dream...then I really didn't deserve to be there in the first place. With the amount of time, knowledge, and PT time on my side failing and quitting have to be merged into the same thing at that point don't they?


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## amlove21 (May 27, 2011)

Tropicana98 said:


> First...like you said about all of us wannabes I'd rather die than quit. But to answer your question I said in my first post intro that I first and foremost have always wanted to be a soldier in the United States Army. So with that in mind if I end up at the needs of the Army I'm going to be the best soldier(infantryman) I can be at whatever unit that may be. I see a lot of pride in that uniform and I'll wear mine with that pride regardless of what tabs, scrolls, or beret I'm authorized to wear in addition to that.



The second part of your post was unneeded, yea? Your backup plan is to just be an infantry soldier, and thats enough. I have zero issue with that.

And again, let's stop with the "I'd rather die that quit" analogy. No, you wouldn't choose death over stopping a training iteration, and it takes away from those that actually did die doing their job. Let's keep the drama to a minimum and focus on the topic- what is the backup plan if you don't make it through your selection process or pipeline?


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## Polar Bear (May 27, 2011)

Servimus said:


> Point 1: When I said "death" I definitely didn't mean I was going to kill myself! I'm just saying that "quitting" doesn't exist. Failure is possible, but if I fail, it's because I failed before I even got to selection. It's because I didn't PT hard enough, or I goofed off doing stupid shit when I should have been staying on task. While I'm at selection, "quitting" isn't even something that exists. It's not a viable option.



I was given a bad batch of MRE's and so where others. I lost 20 lbs in 2 days. Those 2 days where the worst 2 days of my life. The last 6 hours before I knocked on the cadre door where the longest in my life. It is nothing I did to myself. I can still remember the cadre's face and what he said "You" yes "you really sure" yes and I throw up. The next night the air war started for the the first DS

Edit to add don't eat an MRE if it is bloated


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## Tropicana98 (May 27, 2011)

I apologize for the melodrama amlove. You're right I crossed the line with that comment and I'll push em out after I finish this response. To more fully answer your question no I would not have a problem serving in a conventional unit if I did not make it through however all I meant was that I would have no problem putting my best into the job until I get back to the selection process. I would not show up at say the 82nd counting down the days spouting off about how "I'm only here for this many months then I'm going to RASP fuck this place" that makes me look further like an asshat after already failing, it alienates the men I'm serving with and those that died proudly serving the 82nd, and it would probably get me killed because an attitude like that breeds arrogance, arrogance leads to a lack of situational awareness. But in all honesty my focus is on the second half of my first response which I hope came off as what Servimus said earlier if I fail it will because of my doing in order to make "I quit" can't be an option at all. Injury is one thing I don't control that but failing and quitting I do...those are the only two things I do control.



amlove21 said:


> .
> 
> What happens when you go to selection or the Q course, have a couple of bad days in a row



That doesn't mean I have to quit does it?

I cut the other half of this sentence off because that already had the person leaving and I wanted to address this part so its not an uninformed misquote.

Again I apologize for the melodrama and I hope I can help solidify my thinking with this question. Amlove,sir, during those 5 years weren't you focused on doing the best you could as that other AF career while still focusing on the big picture of being a PJ and having that burning desire to make it happen? That is simply all I mean. But I can't afford to go into RASP thinking about what may or may not happen you and the other mentors taught me that's the quickest way out of the door.


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## amlove21 (May 27, 2011)

Tropicana98- no issue here. I just want to keep the thread on track, thats all. I want people to think about the possible consequences and realize that sometimes, things happen that affect the plan. And you need to consider those things, thats all. nothing personal intended at you, or anyone for that matter.

The "die rather than quit" thing I get. Really, I do. But too many use that as a cop out- because when they aren't in the program, and they aren't dead, things get disorienting.

And please, don't call me sir. Aaron, LX, or Love is fine. And you don't owe me pushups. That's not the point of this thread. As a matter of fact, that's not how I operate in person, either.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 27, 2011)

amlove21 said:


> For all you SOF wanna/gonna be's out there- I know this couldn't POSSIBLY happen to you, but what happens if you go out there and don't make the cut? What if you get injured in your selection, or it turns out you just aren't ready for your services' special operations job? Have you considered the A of your PACE? How about the E?
> Let's just say, for the sake of the thread, that you don't get on to a team- what then?


 
lol, if I did not make the 'cut' I would take my ass back to the conventional Army (Infantry) and continue to be the best I can be there, try the SOF side down the road again if possible. Most defiantly would not be the end of the road for me and would not destroy me/disgruntle me.


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## Johca (May 27, 2011)

amlove21 said:


> Awesome stats- where was that from? Although I was extremely surprised that only 1% were eliminated from training for physical injury, I had assumed it would be higher than that.


The Stat came from an official study done by USAF last year and my query with experienced others in Army, Navy and Coast Guard stated injuries were seldom a cause for set back or elimination from training. Thus the presumption is if medical records of all eliminated from training and setbacks in training were scrutinized as thoroughly as the Air Force did for its study (PJ/CCT/TACP) and if the documents generated to cause a setback in training or an elimination from training were scrutinized as the Air Force did, it is reasonably presumed the 1% is what would be found.

I pretty much have a not-official request that is honored that I be forwarded attrition studies as I have strong desire and interest in this area. I do not know how longer this will continued because the young pups I worked with are now the senior and chief functional managers and are getting towards age and 20-30 year HYT retirement years in service. I did a lot of joint operations during my years of active duty service so the people I talk to are reliable subject matter experts on matters of their military occupation (MOS, NEC/Rate, AFSC). 

I got an interest in these attrition matters beginning in 1989 when in a staff officer position on HQ MAC subsequently HQ AMC operations staff. It continued in 1993/4 when I held Chief of Pararescue Operations on HQ ACC Surgeons staff.

In 1990 the US Coast Guard officially approached HQ AMC as to whether two PAST standards should be established for it Helicopter Rescue Swimmer program, one for male gender and one for female gender. The official reply back was only one standard is appropriate and that it is the typical duties performed in the typical operations environment that must determine the standard regardless of gender.

During 1992 and 1993 I was part of the Pararescue functional Manger effort working issues that would result in April 1993 “removal of combat aviation exclusion” policy that opened all career fields except pararescue and CCT to women, since then TACP and SOW were added primarily because their original staff work was sloppy, they hung their hat on all support the Army duty positions as being tactical ground combat duty positions when some were linked to field HQ staff doing joint coordination.

I took a capabilities system approach addressing unit combat readiness and personal readiness operations suitability approach. It included occupational health issue, leadership education and development issues, affordability issues, availability issues, dependability issues, operations environment issues, fatigue issues, interoperability issues across all military operations, manpower issues, mission reliability issues, operational availability (team being available when required) and operational effectiveness (overall ability of the team to accomplish a mission based on represented typical team composition). 

The simple explanation is every operations standard a military military member is held to is capability and mission need driven.   These mission need capability based standards are not the same for every military occupation or even the same at every unit (tactical vs support unit cpability an example and duty postion of a nmilitary classification existing in both).

For the Air Force this results in the screening PAST used by he Air Force recruiting service to differ for PJ (1T2X1) CCT (1C2X1) SOWT (1W0X2) TACP (1C4X1) SERE (1T0X1) and EOD (3E8X1). It is also why indoc courses differ or exist or do not exist for all Air Force career fields listed as having a PAST requirement.

This is why I throughout statistics having consistent rates for many years. Some of the statistics going back to 1951 and 1947. There is no way an applicant can game the system as most of the courses have or are in the process of implementing go-no go performance requirements that do not allow a blind eye to ignore meeting standards or a sympathy pass. Look at the new Army fitness test as an example.

With Secretary of Defense and other policy influential politicians telling the US Army significant force structure reduction will soon happen and tactical organization must be leaner, the quality but not quantity solution will eventually affect every military occupation regardless of military department. Thus what if you don't get through screening and training is becoming more important to think about.


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## Johca (May 27, 2011)

Servimus said:


> For the record- when I wrote that, it wasn't my intention to boast. If it came off that way- apologies.


The context had no perspective or intent of boast to me, but your statement was a convenient use me as a target statement for me to emphasize a statistic.


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## Johca (May 27, 2011)

amlove21 said:


> I am even more interested in the "Considering studies on youth population and military recruitment claim “evidence suggests that cardiorespiratory endurance in young men has declined by approximately 10 percent since 1966” statement.
> 
> It almost seems as if to say "it actually WAS harder" in times past, at least speaking for the cardiorespiratory endurance in young men post 1966.


No the context in the study using my words is typical male graduation high school in and before 1966 were manly men and typical male graduating high school these have a girly or steroid enhanced level of physical fitness and ability. The mental and emotional fitness findings is regardless of gender there is growing numbers of males and females unable to emotionally function at an adult level in an adult environment.

However it was harder in my day, the PAST included flutter kicks, 8 count body builders, chin-ups and pull-ups. But then we were manly-men who were allowed to sing ploitcally incorrect jodies all over the base.  (grin used as flutter kick, 8 count body builders, etc have no defining on how tough or difficult training was or is). It is as tough to standards today as it was when I went through, unless there is a free beer on the line for a different answer.)


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## CDG (May 27, 2011)

I suppose it depends on why I didn't make it.  I quit one SOF Selection (BUD/S) already.  If I were to quit SFAS as well, I suppose that as hard as it would be to acknowledge, I would have to realize that I'm just not SOF material.  I still would want to get into the fight, so I would reclass as 11B or a 19D hopefully and maybe go active duty or maybe finish my degree and try and get a federal job while staying in the Guard.  If I was a non-select (my biggest fear) I would do my best to fix what I needed to fix and come back for another try after some seasoning in the Infantry.  If I was injured I would hopefully be able to rehabilitate and come back for another shot, but if not, I would hopefully still be able to do something in the Combat Arms.


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## digrar (May 27, 2011)

The whole die rather than quit thing, coming from people who have never spent a night lying behind a MG in an ambush amuses me. You don't even know if you're going to like soldiering, being woken at 1 in the morning to spend 3 hours lying behind a rifle, staring into the darkness, no real sleep in a week, starving, on a patrol with no real clear goals, pissing down with rain, being led by a clown who you're only following out of morbid curiosity. This isn't for everyone, no matter how long you've been dreaming of being a Ranger/SEAL/Sniper/18B/PJ/SSDG what ever.


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## Pistol_Pete (May 27, 2011)

Johca said:


> But then we were manly-men who were allowed to sing ploitcally incorrect jodies all over the base.



Those were the days! Damn, in today's PC world, do you guys remember some of the cadences we used to sing? ________the town and ______ the people, it's the only thing to do.... etc. I don't need to fill in the details. Mostly in Airborne Infantry /Infantry units. When I got to SF they didn't do much of that kind of thing of that but kept more to the quiet professional stance. Alright, lets not sidetrack the thread and start recounting all those old cadences. Probably don't need to bring them up on this site.


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## Pistol_Pete (May 27, 2011)

digrar said:


> The whole die rather than quit thing, coming from people who have never spent a night lying behind a MG in an ambush amuses me. You don't even know if you're going to like soldiering, being woken at 1 in the morning to spend 3 hours lying behind a rifle, staring into the darkness, no real sleep in a week, starving, on a patrol with no real clear goals, pissing down with rain, being led by a clown who you're only following out of morbid curiosity. This isn't for everyone, no matter how long you've been dreaming of being a Ranger/SEAL/Sniper/18B/PJ/SSDG what ever.



F'king - A, well said mate.


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## Pistol_Pete (May 27, 2011)

My thoughts here. Of course it is crushing to the ego to _fail _in this endeavor to get through one of these SOF courses.

BUT, to anyone who's even tried - you have my respect and no doubt that of others who made it through. There is no shame in honorably trying and not making it, in my book. This shit is supposed to be if not the hardest thing you ever did - damn near the hardest.

And for those that keep at it, and go through it again and maybe even again, well that's the mental mindset it takes. I remember I got recycled in Patrolling. I had the last patrol. Everyone else "had theirs". It was a difficult hump and classically at 3:00 AM. People were just shot and dog tired, many barely functioning and I just couldn't get them to perform to a high enough standard let alone stay in a very organized patrol, so we missed our time. Later on ODA's we patrolled tight, like the pros we were. Everyone performed and nobody slacked. But it can be different in a course sometimes. So, whatever, I just did it again and passed Patrolling second time. There was no guarantee I would make it all the way through - until I did. You will hear those tales from Ranger school and elsewhere about how having the last graded patrol or even close to the last graded patrol can raise the risk factor. So, better be aware of that and somehow motivate and overcome any potential BF'ers.

So, if you don't make it? I recommend a Combat Arms unit to begin with. Preferably Airborne Infantry or a close cousin. That's where you go back to to refine yourself and keep trying. And if you tried and decide that the tip of SOF is not for you after all, there is still no shame in that in my book as long as you gave it your best effort.

I remember they used to line us up in early morning formation at Mackall and those who had been cut from the course that day were separated from the rest and made to stand in full view of the others still in training. Then the Ballad of The Green Beret was played over the blaring loudspeakers and the downcast, miserable lot was marched out, limping from camp and doing the "Duffle Bag Drag" as Barry sang us the famous song. This was followed by a lecture by a cadre member, and sometimes a dogging "WHO WANTS TO QUIT" session. It was a lot of drama but those are visions one never forgets. You felt bad for some of those going, some were good guys but injured, but you also felt proud to still be there.


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## is friday (May 27, 2011)

As a non-select of MARSOC I've already seriously considered my "other options". I figure my backup plan is Battalion Recon... or if that doesn't fit me, standard 03xx. I need to do something grunt-like with my life before I get outta the Corps. Nobody joins the Marine Corps without at least a brief dream of being a Basic Rifleman--it's just that when we don't see combat, only some of us are just willing to put up with the bullshit of 4 more years for the chance at the privilege. I don't mean to sound morbid or strange but it would be an honor to shed blood in battle as my brave retired Devil Dogs have.

It's hard for me to understand why any other Marine would feel differently. Sure, disability from an IED blast or RPG shrapnel or even an AK round is a hard life... my heart goes out to those wounded vets who have given up something for this country. Not to mention those brave soldiers/Marines who have paid the ultimate price in defense of their brothers and in service to this great nation. Maybe I feel an obligation as a Marine to share the danger and put up with "the shit". It should be a part of my job description, because I love the Marine Corps and the Basic Rifleman is a part of our identity.

I don't know if I can "cut it" because obviously I have not lived the lifestyle, but I feel driven to succeed, so I will try my damndest to push through this next A&S in the Fall.

edit: I've been drinking a little bit, sorry to rant off topic.


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## DasBoot (May 28, 2011)

It is something to comes into my mind a lot. I like to think I'm tough and cool headed, but nothing in my life is in any way similar to BUD/S or BRC. So I have NO idea how I would hold up. I guess that's why I want to go- I'll go in with the "With my shield or on it" mentatlity. But I'll keep that shit to myself and stay humble. Because for all I know I might just hate it- hate every minute of cold water and sand.

The whole "what if you fail" has made me think a lot about what to do- if I go Navy, and get dropped, I'm probably screwed unless I could reclass to SARC/EOD/SAR/SWCC or something like that. I doubt I would put in for any of them if I just DOR'd- if I don't like one SOF course, what makes me think I'd like another?

The USMC would let me go do infantry stuff and hopefully expedite my chances of hitting up BRC again if I was performance or medical dropped. If I just quit because I couldn't pass BRC, I don't know how well I would fare in a Grunt unit- that shit is hard as hell and if I can't make the three months of pain in a non-Hostile enviornment, how would I do on a 6 month deployment to a warzone? I'm no wannabe-elitist prick who is only impressed by SOF guys- I know that being a conventional grunt is substantially harder than anything 95% of the population can handle.

These all weigh on my mind- not enough to keep me from going after it, but enough to keep me humble.


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## TLDR20 (May 28, 2011)

DasBoot said:


> It is something to comes into my mind a lot. I like to think I'm tough and cool headed, but nothing in my life is in any way similar to BUD/S or BRC. So I have NO idea how I would hold up. I guess that's why I want to go- I'll go in with the "With my shield or on it" mentatlity. But I'll keep that shit to myself and stay humble. Because for all I know I might just hate it- hate every minute of cold water and sand.
> 
> The whole "what if you fail" has made me think a lot about what to do- if I go Navy, and get dropped, I'm probably screwed unless I could reclass to SARC/EOD/SAR/SWCC or something like that. I doubt I would put in for any of them if I just DOR'd- if I don't like one SOF course, what makes me think I'd like another?
> 
> ...



If I were you I would just go into the navy as a corpsman and go to BUD/S. If you fail you have more options, you listed them above. But you had better come committed to medicine, because no matter what if you are a SOF medic you will have a long road ahead of you. We all go through the same 6 month SOCM course(minus PJ's I heard they were scared of SOCM  ). And it is fucking hard. That is all


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## DasBoot (May 28, 2011)

cback0220 said:


> If I were you I would just go into the navy as a corpsman and go to BUD/S. If you fail you have more options, you listed them above. But you had better come committed to medicine, because no matter what if you are a SOF medic you will have a long road ahead of you. We all go through the same 6 month SOCM course(minus PJ's I heard they were scared of SOCM :) ). And it is fucking hard. That is all



I sucked at AP Bio in high school so I don't think medical would be my thing. I did want to be a medic/corpsman for a long time... until I took that class:eek:
I shouldn't have listed SARC up there- my bad. I just rattled off the other jobs in the Navy I think seem cool


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## TLDR20 (May 28, 2011)

digrar said:


> The whole die rather than quit thing, coming from people who have never spent a night lying behind a MG in an ambush amuses me. You don't even know if you're going to like soldiering, being woken at 1 in the morning to spend 3 hours lying behind a rifle, staring into the darkness, no real sleep in a week, starving, on a patrol with no real clear goals, pissing down with rain, being led by a clown who you're only following out of morbid curiosity. This isn't for everyone, no matter how long you've been dreaming of being a Ranger/SEAL/Sniper/18B/PJ/SSDG what ever.



To add to this, most of the 18X-rays who went to basic training with me got rid of their contract prior to even finishing Basic. The reason was they really had no idea how miserable it was going to be. They thought "If Basic is like this, what is SOPC and SFAS going to be like?" . It is a reasonable question. The answer is simple, much much worse. I found it funny that they were quitting for a life that was really alot worse. Your life sucks ass during training, but once you are done the worst day in SF is better than the best day in the regular army.


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## Johca (May 28, 2011)

cback0220 said:


> We all go through the same 6 month SOCM course(minus PJ's I heard they were scared of SOCM :) ). And it is fucking hard. That is all


LOL, the Air Force wasn't happy with the intructor manpower funding it had to provide in addition to course being of significant more training days due to other medical traininh having little to do with trauma and paramedic skills.  That plus Air Force could never get the PJ pipeline training to match up efficiently with SOCM course so there was way to much no training days happening for PJ students.  This same issue resulted in Air Force establishing its own combat diver school and course.

However the SOCM course and PJ paramedic/TCCC course are difficult (hard) ones.


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## TLDR20 (May 28, 2011)

Johca said:


> LOL, the Air Force wasn't happy with the intructor manpower funding it had to provide in addition to course being of significant more training days due to other medical traininh having little to do with trauma and paramedic skills. That plus Air Force could never get the PJ pipeline training to match up efficiently with SOCM course so there was way to much no training days happening for PJ students. This same issue resulted in Air Force establishing its own combat diver school and course.
> 
> However the SOCM course and PJ paramedic/TCCC course are difficult (hard) ones.



Yeah I have heard many different reasons for why they stopped coming. I heard it was because of the lack of EMT-P in the SOCM course now. I know that we only did trauma for 6 months so I don't know how that wouldn't be enough.


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## Johca (May 28, 2011)

I'm pretty sure EMT-P was part of the curriculum when PJs dropped out.   It was the funding issues and mostly the training day’s problem.  The SOCM course and other PJ Course training requirement were never able to produce an efficient training schedule.   Each fiscal year there was an extra 2-4 months (depending on class) increase in time it took to get a PJ from start of Indoc to completion of PJ School through training.  There is on record incidents of setbacks (for whatever reason) resulting in students spending a complete 4 year enlistment in the PJ training pipeline and never getting a duty assignment.  Also there was a requirement for AF to su[pply instructors and at the time PJ career field was 50% undermanned.  The line units were not happy with qualified PJ being an instructor and not at an operational duty assignment.

 These are the no-s't reasons.


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## TLDR20 (May 28, 2011)

Johca said:


> I'm pretty sure EMT-P was part of the curriculum when PJs dropped out. It was the funding issues and mostly the training day’s problem. The SOCM course and other PJ Course training requirement were never able to produce an efficient training schedule. Each fiscal year there was an extra 2-4 months (depending on class) increase in time it took to get a PJ from start of Indoc to completion of PJ School through training. There is on record incidents of setbacks (for whatever reason) resulting in students spending a complete 4 year enlistment in the PJ training pipeline and never getting a duty assignment. Also there was a requirement for AF to su[pply instructors and at the time PJ career field was 50% undermanned. The line units were not happy with qualified PJ being an instructor and not at an operational duty assignment.
> 
> These are the no-s't reasons.



Makes sense. Thanks for that. I am sure your program is top notch.


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## Seajack (May 28, 2011)

amlove21 said:


> For all you SOF wanna/gonna be's out there- I know this couldn't POSSIBLY happen to you, but what happens if you go out there and don't make the cut? What if you get injured in your selection, or it turns out you just aren't ready for your services' special operations job? Have you considered the A of your PACE? How about the E?
> 
> Let's just say, for the sake of the thread, that you don't get on to a team- what then?



Right now, though subject to change, I want to be a Corpsman in NSW or with Recon.
If I get injured, I'll take my good ole' time to heal up and train back up to par, then try again on a second wind.
If I DOR then I'll go back to the fleet with the Marines, Seabee's or whoever I'm attached to.

I'm still going to serve and be the best damn Corpsman(or whatever it is I choose) I can be, though. I don't think I need to be a SEAL or in Recon to push my limits.


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## Red Ryder (Jun 19, 2011)

If I get injured or for some reason wind up being a non-select then I'll go where I'm sent and be the best soldier I can be,( not thinking about quitting now cause I ain't gonna think about quitting then). I view it as a honor to serve in any branch of the US Army and fight along side the best and brightest of the nation. My uncle was a engineer in the Army for almost 30 years and my grandpa was a PFC in the 82nd during WWII. Neither of them served in any high speed units and I admire them both very much.

So bottom line if I don't make it through Selection or even the Q Course, I keep reading that Selection never ends, then I'll go and soldier in whatever unit I'm sent to then put in for Selection again and show up as a better soldier and man because of my time in the conventional Army.


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## amlove21 (Jun 20, 2011)

La Roux said:


> If I get injured or for some reason wind up being a non-select then I'll go where I'm sent and be the best soldier I can be,( not thinking about quitting now cause I ain't gonna think about quitting then). I view it as a honor to serve in any branch of the US Army and fight along side the best and brightest of the nation. My uncle was a engineer in the Army for almost 30 years and my grandpa was a PFC in the 82nd during WWII. Neither of them served in any high speed units and I admire them both very much.
> 
> So bottom line if I don't make it through Selection or even the Q Course, I keep reading that Selection never ends, then I'll go and soldier in whatever unit I'm sent to then put in for Selection again and show up as a better soldier and man because of my time in the conventional Army.


I like it. Well done. Now take theory a step further, and figure out a 5 year plan. You gonna hit up some college? What are you going to do to better yourself outside of work? Do you have a specific skill you would like to work on while youre waiting? The more specific, the more thought out, the better.


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## surgicalcric (Jun 20, 2011)

La Roux said:


> ...my grandpa was a PFC in the 82nd during WWII. Neither of them served in any high speed units and I admire them both very much...



Being a Paratrooper was a very high-speed job back during WWII...

Regardless they did their part and its refreshing to read that you wont call it quits because you didnt get selected.

There are plenty of fine soldiers serving throughout the military who arent in "high speed" units and there is certainly something to be learned from everyone.

Crip


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## Red Ryder (Jun 20, 2011)

amlove21 said:


> I like it. Well done. Now take theory a step further, and figure out a 5 year plan. You gonna hit up some college? What are you going to do to better yourself outside of work? Do you have a specific skill you would like to work on while youre waiting? The more specific, the more thought out, the better.



Given the new program that allows Special Forces candidate's to earn a college degree while in the Q course I would focus on getting the 17 credits that allows entry into that program. Besides that I'll try to take any course I can get into that helps develop me as a soldier and leader. Is this a smart course of action?


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## Red Ryder (Jun 20, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> Being a Paratrooper was a very high-speed job back during WWII...
> 
> Regardless they did their part and its refreshing to read that you wont call it quits because you didnt get selected.
> 
> ...



Roger that Sir. Just to clarify he was a Gliderman in the 327th.


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## Red Ryder (Sep 1, 2011)

I'm thinking more and more about making my backup plan my primary plan and enlisting with a option 40 contract.


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## surgicalcric (Sep 1, 2011)

La Roux said:


> Roger that Sir. Just to clarify he was a Gliderman in the 327th.
> 
> I'm thinking more and more about making my backup plan my primary plan and enlisting with a option 40 contract.



First, NEVER call me Sir. I am an SF NCO and as such should be referred to as Sergeant..never Sarge though. Gliderman or not he had one of the "high speed" jobs back in his day.

Secondly, and more importantly, I like your decision. Ranger Regiment would be a fine place for you to start. You may even decide after being there that UW isnt for you... If you do decide it is though, you should have a firm grasp on operations up to the company level prior to attending SFAS/SFQC and will be more of a benefit to your ODA having said knowledge.

The most expedient route is often not the best route.  Had I been younger I would have sought an Option-40 contract....

Best of luck.

Crip


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## TLDR20 (Sep 1, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> Secondly, and more importantly, I like your decision. Ranger Regiment would be a fine place for you to start. You may even decide after being there that UW isnt for you... If you do decide it is you should have a firm grasp on operations up to the company level prior to attending SFAS/SFQC...
> 
> Best of luck.
> 
> Crip



Totally agree with the above statement. Regiment is the place to be a young stud, not SF, go get your kill on, then come to SF and teach others to do it for you!:eek:


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## Muppet (Sep 1, 2011)

La Roux said:


> Roger that Sir. Just to clarify he was a Gliderman in the 327th.



Sure it was not 325th? Surgical Cric took the words out of my mouth regarding highspeed jobs.

F.M.


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## Muppet (Sep 1, 2011)

La Roux said:


> If I get injured or for some reason wind up being a non-select then I'll go where I'm sent and be the best soldier I can be,( not thinking about quitting now cause I ain't gonna think about quitting then). I view it as a honor to serve in any branch of the US Army and fight along side the best and brightest of the nation. My uncle was a engineer in the Army for almost 30 years and my grandpa was a PFC in the 82nd during WWII. Neither of them served in any high speed units and I admire them both very much.
> 
> So bottom line if I don't make it through Selection or even the Q Course, I keep reading that Selection never ends, then I'll go and soldier in whatever unit I'm sent to then put in for Selection again and show up as a better soldier and man because of my time in the conventional Army.



Hey bro. So, while I was not S.F. or other "highspeed" personnel, I did serve in the 82nd. also and feel as if our job was considered "highspeed" also. Hell, I feel that any job in the service is highspeed as long as you put forth the effort and testicular / intestinal fortitude to excell @ that job. Be a good solider. Go to college and get an education and become a good member of society and that will be considered highspeed. Just saying...

F.M.


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## Jael (Sep 1, 2011)

My backup plan is the same as my primary plan, be the best USAF Airmen I am capable of being, career field should not determine motivation for success.


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## 03cpl (Sep 2, 2011)

I've been given this a lot of thought the last couple of months as I am about to leave for A&S.

I joined the Marines right out of high school. It's all I wanted to do with my life and I worked hard to graduate a little early so I could be done with school. I did miss out on a lot of the social aspects of high school but honestly I don't really regret it. I was nerdy and awkward and didn't have the slightest idea how to start a conversation with a girl. :) I've spent four years in the reserves as a grunt, deployed once to Iraq in that whole time. That deployment was sheer misery. It was miserable because my unit was not well led, and we did nothing but stand post while we were there. I do not want to have another experience like that. I want to go out on FOOT patrols, talk with the locals, learn about their cultureand generally improve their lives while chasing the bad guys out of town. I know that is more along the lines of what wins the kind of war we are fighting than what my unit did in Iraq. I really want to avoid being under the command of people who are incompetent and have no desire to contribute to the mission. I'm reasonably sure I will find these things in MARSOC. If I don't I won't stay. I'll do my time and never come back. At this point I'm just glad to finally be going. It took a year of weekly phone calls, along with weekly calls from my 1stsgt asking why I was calling people I shouldn't be talking to, just to get my package to the recruiters.

If I get to A&S and lose sight of the big picture and quit I know I will hate myself for a long time. It'll take time for me to recover but my current plan is to attend the police academy. I tried a semester of college over the summer. It wasn't for me, not yet at least. I know that now. If I do quit, the worst part will be having to go back to my unit and face my Marines. That's not an experience I want to have... But I'll continue to teach them everything I know and look out for their welfare.

If I'm a non-select or get injured, that's ok. I will take the time to re-evaluate, decide if this is still something I want to and then start fighting my chain of command for a chance to go again. In the meantime I'll probably still attend the police academy. I've also considered getting some NRA certifications and starting a small marksmanship school with a couple of the CMTs in our unit. I am always entertaining the idea of deploying with another unit, or attending any schools we can get slots for.

We'll see what the future holds.


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## HOLLiS (Sep 2, 2011)

Good read y'all.  My back up plan is to make smart ass jokes.   This is a complicates topic.  I think it is important to try your best, to be the best person you can be.   It is amazing what human ingenuity can do.    Hard work, couple with purpose of mind, a person can do a lot.   But!! one needs to be honest with their capabilities.  That is probably the hardest part.  People's minds will give out way before the body does.   The only failure, is when you accept it as a failure.  If you learn from it and move on, it is not a failure.    A 5 foot 6 in.  125 pound person will never be a center for the LA Rams, regardless of how much spunk or how hard they try.   Probably one of the hardest tasks in life for all of us, is to find out who we are and what we are capable of.

When in doubt given it your best shot, 150% effort at least.



> "It is not the critic who counts; not the man who points out how the strong man stumbles, or where the doer of deeds could have done them better. The credit belongs to the man who is actually in the arena, whose face is marred by dust and sweat and blood; who strives valiantly; who errs, who comes short again and again, because there is no effort without error and shortcoming; but who does actually strive to do the deeds; who knows great enthusiasms, the great devotions; who spends himself in a worthy cause; who at the best knows in the end the triumph of high achievement, and who at the worst, if he fails, at least fails while daring greatly, so that his place shall never be with those cold and timid souls who neither know victory nor defeat."
> — Theodore Roosevelt


http://www.goodreads.com/author/show/44567.Theodore_Roosevelt


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## Red Ryder (Sep 2, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> First, NEVER call me Sir. I am an SF NCO and as such should be referred to as Sergeant..never Sarge though. Gliderman or not he had one of the "high speed" jobs back in his day.
> 
> Secondly, and more importantly, I like your decision. Ranger Regiment would be a fine place for you to start. You may even decide after being there that UW isnt for you... If you do decide it is though, you should have a firm grasp on operations up to the company level prior to attending SFAS/SFQC and will be more of a benefit to your ODA having said knowledge.
> 
> ...



My apologies, won't happen again Sergeant. If you don't mind me asking how old were you when you enlisted?



cback0220 said:


> Totally agree with the above statement. Regiment is the place to be a young stud, not SF, go get your kill on, then come to SF and teach others to do it for you!:eek:



Can I still be a young stud at 26?


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## Red Ryder (Sep 2, 2011)

Firemedic said:


> Sure it was not 325th? Surgical Cric took the words out of my mouth regarding highspeed jobs.
> 
> F.M.



Yes I'm sure it was the 327th Glider Infantry Regiment.



Firemedic said:


> Hey bro. So, while I was not S.F. or other "highspeed" personnel, I did serve in the 82nd. also and feel as if our job was considered "highspeed" also. Hell, I feel that any job in the service is highspeed as long as you put forth the effort and testicular / intestinal fortitude to excell @ that job. Be a good solider. Go to college and get an education and become a good member of society and that will be considered highspeed. Just saying...
> 
> F.M.



No offense intended bro. Since this is a SOF mentor forum and a thread about back up plans if we don't make into whatever SOF "highspeed" unit we are going for I was using "highspeed" as a general term for a lot of different SOF units and not trying to take anything away from conventional units. I even said it would be a honor to serve in any unit in any branch of our armed forces.


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## surgicalcric (Sep 2, 2011)

La Roux said:


> My apologies, won't happen again Sergeant. If you don't mind me asking how old were you when you enlisted?
> 
> Can I still be a young stud at 26?



I was 32 when I enlisted, 35 when I graduated the SFQC, and am still a, moderately young, stud at 39...

Whether *you* can be a young stud at 26 is dependent on your physical condition (previous injuries), conditioning, strength, and drive.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 2, 2011)

La Roux said:


> My apologies, won't happen again Sergeant. If you don't mind me asking how old were you when you enlisted?
> 
> Can I still be a young stud at 26?



I was 18 when I enlisted with an 18X contract. 21 when I graduated as an 18D. However most of the other "young  studs" should have been elsewhere. And it showed through attrition.


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## Red Ryder (Sep 2, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> I was 32 when I enlisted, 35 when I graduated the SFQC, and am still a, moderately young, stud at 39...
> 
> Whether *you* can be a young stud at 26 is dependent on your physical condition (previous injuries), conditioning, strength, and drive.



No previous injuries and in good condition, getting better every day.

Ive been reading a lot about Opt. 40 contracts and it seems there aren't many available. Does the "get the contract I want or I'm walking" mindset still apply here?


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## Boomer (Sep 3, 2011)

For me, I'd stay in and gather more experience. Probably try out for the BN Scouts; I see no shame in serving as an 11b or any other MOS.

Adjust fire and reengage...

To clarify: I _would_ try again later on down the road.


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 10, 2011)

It's all on circumstance for me. At A&S, if I fail to be selected on the board then I'll atleast know that I completed the training with integrity at the best of my ability. Those guys aren't there to make corn flakes, they're there to select a small group of individuals they feel will be benificial to the teams at a measurement of both physical and mental ability. They know what fits, what can be molded, and what simply does not work. I'll have no regrets walking out that door and I'll move on knowing that I don't have to wonder "what if" and that I made moves to accomplish such a goal. If another time comes later down the road where I could see it as beneficial to go for it again then I will, otherwise I'll keep on trucking and find something right for me. I've been considering JCSE as a backup, I'm very knowledgable in my MOS which plays a critical role in any communications plan.

 To put it bluntly, I have a dream - but I'm not a groupie. The saddest thing isn't seeing failure but a failure to let go (do not confuse this with a quitters attitude, that shit is pathetic) - the people that excel in SOF were mean't to do SOF, particularly that role under their mental and physical capacity. If I'm deemed an outside personality that won't mesh well with the teams, well then what can I change about that? Would I want to change that about myself? If I did, wouldn't you think they'd see right through it or do you think I would be able to maintain that mindset and personality throughout my work on the teams if they didn't? Fuck that I'll happily move on with no animosity and seeing it soley as a challenging course that I've completed. If anything, it's a confidence booster - hence - they're not out there making fucking corn flakes.

I saw a statistic in this thread about training-ending injuries falling into the 1 percentage? I'd really like to see a chart that represents this because there are plenty of Marines atleast in the case of MarSOC that come back absolutely destroyed, one guy is getting medically seperated with a completely shatterd ankle. My backup plan for this - my life insurance policy. This may sound funny but USAA will authorize a life insurance policy with coverage as low as $100,000.00 - this may seem small but if you're already in the military your big idea is more than likely the SGLI. Without getting off track, the coverage of the SGLI, the funeral coverage also being military provided, and my USAA is great especially for only twenty-four dollars a month. My wife and child will be left with a good chunk of change but furthermore, the critical factor is the amneties associated with USAA's coverage. There's a special circumstance, that for ANY REASON, the military or any certified doctor, deems me with a SERIOUS injury, mandating medical seperation or not, I get $25,000.00 in my pocket. It is instantanious, like a prize on wheel of fortune, and only needs to be validated and signed by a qualified doctor and forwarded to USAA via fax. Thats it, the other factor is that if I am indeed medically seperated - I still remain qualified for my life insurance and only have to change the rate, in-which all amneties will still apply as well as the 25 grand. I'm comfortable with this injury plan.

If I voluntarily withdraw from the course or am ejected for bringing out my hate ape rage at another volunteer - there may be some challenges ahead in getting back into the course at a later date. If it is possible, I will do it after a serious evaluation of my mental/physical fortitude. I highly doubt that this will happen, but if indeed it does as the thread asks, I will try again if at all possible. Much later as stated - after some serious self-reflection.

Joint Communications Support Element will remain largely my top backup plan. Seeing as they will often serve SOF if there is to be something that I've done to get ejected or laughed out of A&S then that may/may not hinder my assignment. Regardless, if I can not get into JCSE due to constraints via monitor on my MOS or whatever the case. The All-Marine Team for boxing, Drill Instructor, Recruiter, MAIT are possibilities.

There's a lot I want to do, if I could do it all at once, I would - but top priority is A&S, if I am to be accepted into the SOC then all else wouldn't even shed a sliver of value in comparison - for me that is. I have backups upon backups upon backups. Its not a lack of confidence but is just my nature, for those of you who have family/people/in this forums case: team members that depend on you - you above all else can surely understand this mindset.

H/A


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 10, 2011)

The Hate Ape said:


> _whole post _



I find a few issues here, and I'm going to try and stay in my lane as much as possible because I know nothing about A&S other than what I saw on a documentary and what is discussed on this site.
-If you think that you'll walk away with no "what ifs" if you're not selected by the board, I think you're mistaken.  It's just as easy to question your physical capacity as it is to question your mentality, attitude, etc during the Selection course.  Everyone wonders if they trained properly before, during & after Selection.  I bet a good number of those who are not selected also wonder the same thing about their attitude going into the course.  I wasn't picked up for a LEO job when I still lived in PHX and I wondered constantly what I said/didn't say that kept me from continuing on in the process.  Obviously two totally different jobs, but they are selection processes none the less.
-Regarding injuries.  I got "hurt" (achilles tendonitis) and I decided I wanted to quit.  That was my decision.  People have pushed through worse pain than I experienced, I have no doubts about that.  One guy who was at the school house had a broken foot because he kicked a jet ski trailer, it fell off the wooden block it was sitting on and crushed his foot.  He's still there.  He's LLD, but still hanging around.  He didn't get dropped, he certainly didn't get medically separated from the Navy and he hasn't quit.  Unless you have some near death experience, I don't really see all this being an issue.  Again, I might be completely wrong because I know little to nothing about A&S and how they treat injuries.  You also went from "plenty of Marines" to "one guy" in the same sentence.
-The fact that you included "_bringing out my hate ape rage at another volunteer_" gives me serious cause for concern.  I think all SOF refer to themselves as Quiet Professionals for a reason.  If you don't have enough self control to refrain from raging on another Marine during A&S you might want to seriously reconsider what you're getting yourself into.
These are just observations on my part, not shots at you by any means.  I hope this helps some and makes you think.
Admin/Mods, if I'm way out of my lane, just let me know.


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 10, 2011)

I know they arent shots they're observations..

Hate Ape rage was an exhagerated approach but still a thought on ALL possibilities as defined by the topic of this thread. Quite frankly I dont "rage" on anyone, if I had such mental setbacks I could certainly agree on SOF not being well suited for me.

No there were plenty of people that were injured, the one guy was simply the one med sep that I knew of. Of the five guys that left my platoon to one of the more recent selections, Two were selected - One was denied at the board - Two were medically incapable to continue and the last straight up quit. Of the two injured, one did something to his knee, I remember him being assigned to LD and he had to walk on crutches for a while and was pending minor surgery. The other's ankle was ridiculously shattered, he rolled down something and slammed it onto something else, his shit was truely fucked up. He's being seperated - case closed. USAA isn't my A&S insurance, its just my backup plan to serious injuries that I could take just attending such training let alone A&S. I live a pretty active lifestyle anyway and while I dont plan on competing in motorcross events its a pretty good idea to have for just a couple bucks a month.

Finally, I can honestly say - HONESTLY - if I get through everything, and end up having a situation much like the one out of my platoon that didn't get selected - of course it will be a bummer, but it wont be a downer. You understand? I'm not going to drink myself to sleep on the couch nor am I going to chain smoke a carton thinking about what I could have done better. Furthermore, unless I portrayed something that I'm not, what could I really wonder about? They didn't want me - for the way I am or something else, it didn't mesh and I dont mesh. I can walk away assured that I did my thing and gave them what I'm about. Nothing more nothing less.. I'd be satisfied.

I think your LEO relation to how I feel about A&S are entirely different. They're different in the sense that we're different people. While you may have been heart-set on being a LEO it sounds like you've moved on. I'll move on just the same if I don't get accepted - I'll be fine with this as well. When I was a kid I wanted to be a professional boxer, a comedian, a firefighter, and even a clerk at Food Lion because at 5 y/o I thought you could keep the money in the register. Of course it was dissapointing to hear but I moved on. I have a solid job, food on my family's table and a beautiful wife and daughter. If the SOF isn't for me I'll move on because I'll find something else - mostly because I'll have to.

"Man appoints, God dissapoints"


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## Seajack (Oct 12, 2011)

It's starting to sound like I need a _new_ back-up plan, as the Navy recruiter told me there are barely any challenge contracts to be had. It may change, but I've been talking to an Army recruiter at my high school, and will be paying a visit to the CG and AF recruiting offices as well. I'm not really sold on a branch.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 12, 2011)

I'll add something here.  I was thinking about this while in the shower just now.
If you want to kill booger eaters and do it up close, no matter what, you might consider the Army or Marines vice USN/USCG or USAF as your branch to pursue an SOF slot.  I don't know if infantry spots are open to those who DOR from Army or Marine SOF courses, but I can GUARANTEE you it won't be the case in the Navy.  USAF, probably not the case either.  If you're OK with being stationed on a Haze Gray Underway after dropping from BUD/S, SWCC, or one of the SpecOp programs, so be it.  But if you want to go play in one of the sand boxes regardless of how you get there, you might want to think about that in conjunction with your back up plan.
SeaJack, NSW goes through cycles when they're looking for candidates.  If they're at a low point now, NSO/NSW will be recruiting on every corner in the neighborhood in 6 months.  When I enlisted in May 2010, they were trying to get us to bring every swinging dick into the recruiting station and take a PST.  It's cyclical just like everything else.
Just my $.02


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## TLDR20 (Oct 12, 2011)

If you are an 18X you will go through infantry training first. Ranger option contracts are available to alot of MOS's but not all in the army.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 12, 2011)

The big fear when dropping from NSW/NSO is being sent to the fleet (or only having the option to reclassify) as an "undesignated seaman/airman".  Seaman undesignated is where the paint chipping and hull painting actually takes place.  I know it's shitty discussing the options if you DOR, but this is a "back up plan" thread.  Is there anything like that in the other branches?


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## AWP (Oct 12, 2011)

The Hate Ape said:


> Joint Communications Support Element will remain largely my top backup plan.



Go to JCU and don't look back. JCSE is a good unit, I went to college with a guy you used to work in their -3 shop (Marine Comm officer) and is now at SOCOM, but go to JCU. The Navy and AF send guys there with zero SOF background so it can be done.


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 13, 2011)

Freefalling said:


> Go to JCU and don't look back. JCSE is a good unit, I went to college with a guy "_*you*_" used to work in their -3 shop (Marine Comm officer) and is now at SOCOM, but go to JCU. The Navy and AF send guys there with zero SOF background so it can be done.



Maybe I'm misreading this or its the long hours.


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## AWP (Oct 13, 2011)

The Hate Ape said:


> Maybe I'm misreading this or its the long hours.



Ouch. Make that a "who" and it probably makes more sense. Sorry about that.

Not that JCSE is a bad unit, far from it, but I'd shoot for JCU.


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 14, 2011)

ah, got it.

I just saw a JCU brochure on my SNCO's desk. I flipped through it, then noticed that I'm not qualified - my MOS isn't accepted. Furthermore I'm not sure I could land a TS/SCI - atleast MarSoc only requires a Secret.


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## Seajack (Oct 18, 2011)

SkrewzLoose said:


> I'll add something here. I was thinking about this while in the shower just now.
> If you want to kill booger eaters and do it up close, no matter what, you might consider the Army or Marines vice USN/USCG or USAF as your branch to pursue an SOF slot. I don't know if infantry spots are open to those who DOR from Army or Marine SOF courses, but I can GUARANTEE you it won't be the case in the Navy. USAF, probably not the case either. If you're OK with being stationed on a Haze Gray Underway after dropping from BUD/S, SWCC, or one of the SpecOp programs, so be it. But if you want to go play in one of the sand boxes regardless of how you get there, you might want to think about that in conjunction with your back up plan.
> SeaJack, NSW goes through cycles when they're looking for candidates. If they're at a low point now, NSO/NSW will be recruiting on every corner in the neighborhood in 6 months. When I enlisted in May 2010, they were trying to get us to bring every swinging dick into the recruiting station and take a PST. It's cyclical just like everything else.
> Just my $.02



Yeah, I was told there would be like, 25 Navy EOD contracts for 2011, and that I probably would not get one. My heart is not set on any particular MOS/rate/AFSC/etc. I understand every job is important.

I talked to the Army recruiter and he said he might be able to get me a 68w w/Option 40, which I thought was awesome! I'm looking into Pararescue as well, I just need to get a hold of the AF recruiter.


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## Dillinger (Nov 20, 2011)

Backup plans.  Never leave home without one.

As mentioned in one of my previous posts, I'm a Legal Marine by trade.  I've been behind a desk for the last six years and now, after twelve months in Afghanistan, I have an itch to go out and generally wreak havoc on someone else's day.  I'm no longer content with merely handling the paperwork and/or processing the ones we catch and watching the others simply "fall through the cracks."  I feel like I can, and should, do more.  I'm young, healthy, capable, and willing.  

If all goes well (I still have yet to receive word from the MARSOC recruiter) I'll be attending A&S within the next twelve to fourteen months.  Obviously, the best case scenario is attending A&S and getting selected.  Worst case scenario, I never make to A&S for a wide array of bullshit reasons beyond my control.  I'm prepared for both and everything in between.  From my understanding, if you attend A&S and are not selected, you will receive a formal counseling explaining as to why.  Knowledge is power and unfucking myself is priority number one.  From a career standpoint, I'm in a unique situation (yes, I realize almost everyone perceives their situation as "unique").  In the event I cannot attend/am not selected, I will EAS and I'm no longer an active component within the Marine Corps for standard administrative reasons beyond my control.  The Marine Corps is, to the best of my knowledge, the only branch with rank/time in service limitations.  You must be X rank before X number of years of service.  Failure to meet these requirements results in a mandatory removal from the Corps.  I'm coming up on one of those hurdles.  Due to carelessness in my past, I haven't done well to put myself in a position where I'll meet the requirements to continue enlisting in the Corps without a promtion.  Bottom line, if I'm not promoted before the end of my contract - I'm out and not by choice.  Majority of this is self inflicted, but it would certainly be less of a pain in my six if the Corps wasn't downizing.  Promotions in my MOS have become insanely difficult to come-by, near impossible if you've ever been in legtimate trouble (Article 15/NJP or worse).  Selection into MARSOC, however, would garuantee me an instant promotion and I'd be allowed to continue my service.  It's pretty much MARSOC or bust.

If shit hits the proverbial fan, I'll EAS and ride the civilian life for a semester of college (God bless the GI bill).  I'll let my hair grow out, unwind, relax, and generally enjoy being a free spirit for a while.  I'll return to the military, enlisting into the Army and seek out a direct combat MOS with an aim for an 18X (18B/18C).  A second chance so to speak.  If in the event I'm not selected at that point, I'll opt for a conventional infantry position or find a way to better utilize my clearance and ride out a (hopefully) long and healthy career.  There are other options such as private security companies that I can look into as well.  

For now, I'm keeping my eyes at 25m - prepping for my first go at A&S.


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## Johca (Nov 20, 2011)

All the military services have a must be X rank before X number of years enlisted force management programs. Air Force calls it High Year of Tenure and the Army calls it Retention Control Points.

BTW the Army will be downsizing soon too.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 20, 2011)

The Hate Ape said:


> ah, got it.
> 
> I just saw a JCU brochure on my SNCO's desk. I flipped through it, then noticed that I'm not qualified - my MOS isn't accepted. Furthermore I'm not sure I could land a TS/SCI - atleast MarSoc only requires a Secret.


 
That's unfortunate.  I worked with JCU a lot in my last operational assignment, it's a great unit.  Maybe something to shoot for later on.


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## Dillinger (Nov 20, 2011)

> All the military services have a must be X rank before X number of years enlisted force management programs. Air Force calls it High Year of Tenure and the Army calls it Retention Control Points.


 
Bollocks.  The Marine Corps calls it "High Year Tenure" as well.  I'm going to have to look into this and pull the numbers for rank to time in service limitation ratios.


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## Dillinger (Nov 20, 2011)

Johca said:


> All the military services have a must be X rank before X number of years enlisted force management programs. Air Force calls it High Year of Tenure and the Army calls it Retention Control Points.


 
I just pulled Army Regulation 601-280, Army Retention Program, Rapid Action Revision[RAR] Issue Date: 15 September 2011 and it revealed some pleasing news regarding the Army's regulations on its version of "high tenure".  The Army's limitations are far more lenient than what the Marine Corps has in effect.  The Corps' states enlisted Marines must reach E-5/Sergeant by 8 years of active duty service.  The Army states soldiers must be obtain E-5/Sergeant by 15 years of active duty service - I'll take that.  Unless the Army's downsizing eliminates my ability to enlist within her ranks, my contingency plan stands untouched.  That would be quite unfortunate and highly displeasing if such a thing like that were to occur though.
In the event someone else may need it, here's a link to the Army regulation:  www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r601_280.pdfSimilar


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## Just A Man (Dec 3, 2012)

Although I won't quit till they pull me out of training , and want nothing more than to see what I am made of on the inside. I have back up plans for my back up plans. I want to make the AF my career, if I don't make it through the pipe line for any reason I would be at the AF needs... I won't have a decision on what mos I will get , it will be assigned to me. That's a decision I have already made , and willing to do what is asked of me . If it was my choice however I would try to put in an officer packet .


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## Marauder06 (Dec 3, 2012)

The Hate Ape said:


> ah, got it.
> 
> I just saw a JCU brochure on my SNCO's desk. I flipped through it, then noticed that I'm not qualified - my MOS isn't accepted. Furthermore I'm not sure I could land a TS/SCI - atleast MarSoc only requires a Secret.


 
Don't we have someone here who was picked up for JCU recently?  He'd probably be able to give you the straight scoop.


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## reed11b (Dec 3, 2012)

My plan B had been to go to sniper school and stay in the sniper section, but lately this seems to be my plan A. New plan B would be to finish out this enlistment as a dismount in a line company and look for an FO or Medic slot closer to home. Since I will be 41 when this enlistment is up, I will seriously consider CA at that time.
Reed


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 3, 2012)

Just A Man said:


> Although I won't quit till they pull me out of training , and want nothing more than to see what I am made of on the inside. I have back up plans for my back up plans. I want to make the AF my career, if I don't make it through the pipe line for any reason I would be at the AF needs... *I won't have a decision on what mos I will get , it will be assigned to me.* That's a decision I have already made , and willing to do what is asked of me . If it was my choice however I would try to put in an officer packet .


 
As for the bold, and speaking strictly from a Navy standpoint, we had options when we dropped.  We were given a list of jobs based on what was available and what our ASVAB score was.  I had a high ASVAB, so I had about 16 jobs to choose from.  Others had 5-6.  I don't know of anyone who was forced to take XYZ job when they talked to the classifier.  Again, my experience from the Navy.


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## Seajack (Dec 3, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> As for the bold, and speaking strictly from a Navy standpoint, we had options when we dropped. We were given a list of jobs based on what was available and what our ASVAB score was. I had a high ASVAB, so I had about 16 jobs to choose from. Others had 5-6. I don't know of anyone who was forced to take XYZ job when they talked to the classifier. Again, my experience from the Navy.


What was your ASVAB score, if you don't mind me asking.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 3, 2012)

Seajack said:


> What was your ASVAB score, if you don't mind me asking.


99%


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## Seajack (Dec 3, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> 99%


That's awesome. I got a 76 on mine and my line scores barely qualified for EOD. I would really hope they offered me HM if I DOR'd. It should go unsaid that I don't plan on it, but no one does, shit happens, etc.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 3, 2012)

Seajack said:


> That's awesome. I got a 76 on mine and my line scores barely qualified for EOD. I would really hope they offered me HM if I DOR'd. It should go unsaid that I don't plan on it, but no one does, shit happens, etc.


It's funny, after giving it some thought, what does everyone want to know/ask about? What makes guys quit. On the bus ride from the airport to the NAB Coronado, everyone was asking about what makes guys quit in the pool. Buddy tows, under waters, brick treads... In hindsight, fuck that. Ask about the guys that make it through. They're the only ones that matter. A million different things can make a guy quit, but the ones who succeed probably have many things in common.
HM was on my list, but it totally depends on manning levels at the time. Make it through your pipeline and it won't be a concern.


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## Seajack (Dec 3, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> It's funny, after giving it some thought, what does everyone want to know/ask about? What makes guys quit. On the bus ride from the airport to the NAB Coronado, everyone was asking about what makes guys quit in the pool. Buddy tows, under waters, brick treads... In hindsight, fuck that. Ask about the guys that make it through. They're the only ones that matter. A million different things can make a guy quit, but the ones who succeed probably have many things in common.
> HM was on my list, but it totally depends on manning levels at the time. Make it through your pipeline and it won't be a concern.


Yeah, it's something I endlessly think about, but that's a really good thought that I should probably put more time into. It's almost a pessimism vs optimism thing...but I digress. Thanks for the advice!


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## yankfan (Dec 4, 2012)

From the way I understand it, which I could be wrong, is if for some reason something happens and I don't make it through the Marine Recon Pipeline, then I think they would send me to Infantry because that is the MOS I would have trained in prior to going to BRC. And if that were to happen then I would serve as an Infantry Marine the best I could.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 4, 2012)

yankfan said:


> From the way I understand it, which I could be wrong, is if for some reason something happens and I don't make it through the Marine Recon Pipeline, then I think they would send me to Infantry because that is the MOS I would have trained in prior to going to BRC. And if that were to happen then I would serve as an Infantry Marine the best I could.


I've seen a couple times where the USMC guys with green labels under their name (Uncle Petey, Hitman 2/3) said Infantry is overmanned (for lack of a better word) and would not be an option on washing out of the pipeline.  I could be wrong, or that could have changed, but I do recall seeing a comment of that nature on more than one occasion.


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## MOTOMETO (Dec 4, 2012)

yankfan said:


> From the way I understand it, which I could be wrong, is if for some reason something happens and I don't make it through the Marine Recon Pipeline, then I think they would send me to Infantry because that is the MOS I would have trained in prior to going to BRC. And if that were to happen then I would serve as an Infantry Marine the best I could.


 
If you come in the Marine Corps with an 03 contract, and you attempt Recon and get dropped, you will be assigned to a regular infantry unit.


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## ZULU (Dec 6, 2012)

I can see this is a very touchy issue with some.  My experience in life is to always have an exit strategy balanced with a complete no-quite attitude with as much preparation as possible ahead of time.  I have not served in the military previously so obviously I do not have first hand knowledge yet as to what its like in an SOF INDOC school. However everyone starts from scratch at some point.  Some  make it first time through, most don't. Even those who've have been currently serving are subject to the same attrition rates as a no-body off the streets.  Granted they will most likely have a better mental azimuth of sorts when tackling the immediate hurdles during their selection than someone minutes out of BMT. So please don't take my thoughts as prideful or foolhardy. 

Should plan (A) fail only due to injury or being dropped by cadre, plan (B) is to find another way.  Hopefully my efforts, attitude & accomplishments during the pipeline place me in a position to be recycled back into the program for another go.  If so I will do everything humanly possible to overcome that weakness prior to being recycled.  Should plan (B) not work, plan (C) is at this point an unknown.  I've heard too many rumors on the subject to know for sure.  My understanding is if I were to non-select or quit at anytime during the PJ pipeline and am not offered a recycle option, I would at that point be discharged with no choice to serve under a different MOS.  Plan (A) though, will be accomplished.


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## is friday (Dec 8, 2012)

MOTOMETO said:


> If you come in the Marine Corps with an 03 contract, and you attempt Recon and get dropped, you will be assigned to a regular infantry unit.


This might be changed as the Recon Course is modified. Next fiscal year you might be at the needs of the Marine Corps no matter what.


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## NeverSayDie (Dec 8, 2012)

Anybody wants to move me to the other side of the big brown fence without a scroll on my shoulder, they're going to need a fucking body bag. I've waited too long and invested too much just to get here. I have no plan B. I haven't had one for 2 years.


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## RackMaster (Dec 8, 2012)

NeverSayDie said:


> Anybody wants to move me to the other side of the big brown fence without a scroll on my shoulder, they're going to need a fucking body bag. I've waited too long and invested too much just to get here. I have no plan B. I haven't had one for 2 years.


 
This isn't a very productive train of thought, for you or for others reading it.  I would normally just delete something like this but it'll be a good point for others.


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## amlove21 (Dec 8, 2012)

NeverSayDie said:


> Anybody wants to move me to the other side of the big brown fence without a scroll on my shoulder, they're going to need a fucking body bag. I've waited too long and invested too much just to get here. I have no plan B. I haven't had one for 2 years.


Well, I would say you're 1- underprepared, 2- overconfident, and 3- (this one is the most important) out of your lane. No, they most certainly will not need a bodybag. All they need is some unsatisfactory instructor evaluations and a drop slip. This isn't Sparta, turbo, and no one is going to have to kill you to fail you. You can just fail. You can unceremoniously fail, immediately.  

While some may see your point- 'I have to pass, there is no other option'- I believe I clearly stated that yes, there most certainly were. Like, for instance failure to meet standards, or injury. 

This braggadocios, overly aggressive response to a simple question isn't needed, it's not on track with where the conversation is, and you obviously missed the point of some older SOF mentors trying to get you younger guys to think about contingency plans and other options- cause, you know, that's kind of an important skill in our line of work. Being able to accurately predict outcomes you may not like and plan accordingly. 

Get the thread back on track. NeverSayDie, you wanna chat, PM me.


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## Lefty375 (Dec 8, 2012)

Going to SFAS in April. If I should not be selected, or injured then I have two plans. A) Re-try selection if injured. B) Put in packet for RASP. I have little to no interest in staying in the regular army at this point.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 8, 2012)

Hmm...interesting.  You can be a non-select (for whatever reason) at SFAS and then put a package in for RASP?  Are those regularly accepted?  
At one point a large number of BUD/S drops were showing up at the SWCC school house still trying to get into SPECWAR.  I don't know if that's when SWCC became it's own closed loop program with NEC; or if that's where the 2 year waiting period for a 2nd try at a NSO/NSW program came from once you dropped.  Maybe just 1, maybe both.  Not 100% sure.


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## Lefty375 (Dec 8, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Hmm...interesting. You can be a non-select (for whatever reason) at SFAS and then put a package in for RASP? Are those regularly accepted?
> At one point a large number of BUD/S drops were showing up at the SWCC school house still trying to get into SPECWAR. I don't know if that's when SWCC became it's own closed loop program with NEC; or if that's where the 2 year waiting period for a 2nd try at a NSO/NSW program came from once you dropped. Maybe just 1, maybe both. Not 100% sure.


 
From what I understand, they won't ever tell you what you were a non-select for. I was looking around for this exact question..and I found this so far ( http://www.professionalsoldiers.com/forums/showthread.php?p=477362#post477362). I think I have read also that if you are a non-select then you can try again. I think only when you quit do you have a problem...


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## CDG (Dec 8, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Hmm...interesting. You can be a non-select (for whatever reason) at SFAS and then put a package in for RASP? Are those regularly accepted?
> At one point a large number of BUD/S drops were showing up at the SWCC school house still trying to get into SPECWAR. I don't know if that's when SWCC became it's own closed loop program with NEC; or if that's where the 2 year waiting period for a 2nd try at a NSO/NSW program came from once you dropped. Maybe just 1, maybe both. Not 100% sure.


 
As far as I understand, the SWCC guys got tired of people feeling like SWCC was second fiddle because a lot of dudes would quit/fail BUD/S and then go there.  It wasn't solely the rates, because after I DOR'd at BUD/S, they gave me the option to go straight down to Panama City for EOD.


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## goon175 (Dec 8, 2012)

I have not heard of Non-Selects at SFAS being given a shot at RASP, but I know some guys who were pretty far along in the Q course when they failed/were dropped/whatever were given the option to go to RASP - which I think is acceptable. I know there are guys out there that may be in great shape, are smart, etc. but maybe aren't what SF is looking for, and will do well in RASP/75th. Just like there are guys who have failed RASP or were RFS'd from Regiment that went on to be very successful in SF. Just because you aren't right for one organization doesn't mean you can't excel in another. Now, if they were sending SFAS failures to RASP, or RASP failures to SFAS - then I think that would be a problem.

NeverSayDie - Your option B is being a medic in an airborne unit should you not make it. There are many good medics who smoked RASP and then did not make it through SOCM - and unless you were cheating or doing something else stupid, would be nothing to be ashamed of.

Make sure you re-read what you post on here before you click the 'post reply' button every time, there are active members here who will be among your cadre in the very near future - and will have a very active role in whether you achieve option A or not.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 8, 2012)

CDG said:


> As far as I understand, the SWCC guys got tired of people feeling like SWCC was second fiddle because a lot of dudes would quit/fail BUD/S and then go there. It wasn't solely the rates, because after I DOR'd at BUD/S, they gave me the option to go straight down to Panama City for EOD.


Interesting.  The only option like that I had was AIRR.  EOD/Diver/SWCC/SEAL were all off the table for 2 years.  All water under the bridge at this point though.  Thanks for the extra clarification.  
Back to your regularly scheduled program.


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## AWP (Dec 8, 2012)

Funny...reading through this thread and seeing where some are at and where still want to be. Kind of neat.

*My main point though* is this for all of you high-speed "With my shield or upon it/ they will have to kill me/ Never quit, never die/ blah, blah, blah" types, let me ask you this:

If a pilot's plane was perfect...like your plan..would it have an ejection seat?

If a parachute was perfect....like your plan...why carry a reserve?

If people never quit....like you won't quit on your plan..then why allow divorces?

But don't worry, you guys are all perfect and bad luck, your own weaknesses, another person's shortcomings....none of that will possibly stop you, right?


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 8, 2012)

Speaking from personal experience: achilles tendonitis never entered my mind until I was sitting inside the boat barn telling Doc where it hurt.


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## digrar (Dec 9, 2012)

After playing about 500 games of basketball, I never expected to come down from a rebound during training for the Battalion's team and land on some bastards foot, blowing out my ankle to the tune of 3 operations to get it back to sort of not quite normal condition.
 A mate of mine didn't mean to do his shoulder getting hit in an innocuous tackle playing footy a week before his one chance to do SASR selection.
Another mate didn't mean for his wife to miscarry the night before he was due to head off on the same selection.
Another three mates went all the way through selection only to be told at the end that they weren't quite what the Regiment was looking for, maybe come back again next year.
Shit happens.


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## 8654Maine (Dec 9, 2012)

Whew, good thing I didn't read these types of post before I took my recon screen.  

But, I was strong and DUMB, back then.

Was on crutches after the screening and if Ranger School was 2 days longer, my cellulitis/lymphangitis would have done me in.  Marines rarely get a second shot at special schools.

Folks, listen to those who've trod the path: need guts to pass, but use your head to succeed.


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## Squidward (Dec 10, 2012)

I like this thread. Murphy is always an important factor to consider. A math test during the 18D course (dosage and drip rate calculation with no calculators allowed) was what almost ended things for me. Saw a lot of guys fade away during my time with JFKSWCS, and by no means were the majority of them guys that quit. For 18 series guys you're looking at a year in the course at least. During that time life tends to happen, and the circumstances causing you to leave early aren't always under your control.


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## goon175 (Dec 10, 2012)

I was shot in OSUT, got food poisoning my first day of airborne, and fell off the fast rope tower the day before graduation at RIP. Luckily I was fortunate with recycles and second chances, but it could have just as easily went the other way.

I hate to think of what could have been, but the truth is that at multiple times I was staring failure right in the eyes.

To this day I still have unfinished business in the Army, things that I want to accomplish but haven't yet.


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## Squidward (Dec 10, 2012)

goon175 said:


> I was shot in OSUT, got food poisoning my first day of airborne, and fell off the fast rope tower the day before graduation at RIP. Luckily I was fortunate with recycles and second chances, but it could have just as easily went the other way.
> 
> I hate to think of what could have been, but the truth is that at multiple times I was staring failure right in the eyes.
> 
> To this day I still have unfinished business in the Army, things that I want to accomplish but haven't yet.



I'd like to hear the OSUT story if you don't mind.


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## goon175 (Dec 10, 2012)

I'll send you a PM


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## Ravage (Dec 10, 2012)

The gig I've set my sights on has support elements. If not the glamor then the back stage - equally important if not more.
Then go again....


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## Deadtorights (Dec 12, 2012)

I am currently Active Duty USAF. My retraining window opens next month for the undermanned careerfields so I'm wanting to go for Pararescue. If that fails, I will try again a later date. If I sustain an injury and deemed that I can't return, but can try out for another Battlefield Airman career, I'll pursue TACP. If I'm denied that and can still stay in the Air Force I will try to get a degree and go officer side. If not, I'll try and go to the Army as 11B or 13F and see where I can go from there. If HSLD stuff isn't for me then I'll get out of the Military and open up a crossfit-esque facility or join a great friend on mine who runs one down in Texas. Or if I'm still itching for some action, I'll try some sort of law enforcement.


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## Kilotango (Dec 14, 2012)

Just happened to find this post while milling through the site. Awesome posts on here, giving motivation to me and I'm sure to everyone else who reads, so I commend you all on that. With that said, this is an issue I struggle with personally. Any reasonable and intelligent person stops and asks "what if". Each person handles this question differently of course but I always find solace in the knowledge that our country was built on the "second chance". Somewhere, someway, there's a path to success. May not be the path you planned on, but with perseverance you'll find it. Take it from me. All my life I knew I wanted to go Navy. Applied to the Naval Academy, grabbed a nomination, swore I got in but was denied and now I'm on my B plan (Learned Navy wasn't for me through ROTC at NC State) and I'm glad I didn't go.

With that being said, the guys on here reading up on SF are already taking a step in the right direction. Personally I've learned more on this site than any other and it's continuing to help me hash out my career plans. 

Apologies if hijacking the thread.

Happy Holidays Everyone


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## 8654Maine (Dec 14, 2012)

You want a backup plan?  How's this:

French FL, correction officer, Marine Recon, then lateraled to AFSOC (unsure if PJ or CCT).  Last I heard was that he went to a 3 lettered agency.

Can you say journeyman?  Tough dude.


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## Etype (Dec 14, 2012)

Here was my backup plan-

I was a 22 years old E-5, already married with a 2 year old daughter.  My wife stayed at home because we didn't stand to make much anyway while paying for full time childcare- on top of that, if you've ever been to Fayetteville, you would want to send your child to hang out with the locals all day either.  I was at the end of a 4 year enlistment and wasn't going to subject myself or my family to another 4 years in the 82nd.  I got back from Iraq with 3 months left on my contract, went to selection while my unit was on block leave (about 20 days after I got off the plane) and went to the reenlistment office and did a BEARS reenlistment for 18B the day after I got back from Camp Mackall. 

My backup plan was to get selected.


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## goon175 (Dec 14, 2012)

> My backup plan was to get selected


 
Epic.


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## asewland (Dec 17, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Funny...reading through this thread and seeing where some are at and where still want to be. Kind of neat.
> 
> *My main point though* is this for all of you high-speed "With my shield or upon it/ they will have to kill me/ Never quit, never die/ blah, blah, blah" types, let me ask you this:
> 
> ...


I'm not going to lie: thinking of a backup plan does makes me feel like I'm already giving up. But reading through this thread has made me realize that even the best plans fail and that having a backup plan doesn't mean giving up; it means that you're prepared for the fact that shit happens in life. Just my .02


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## surgicalcric (Dec 17, 2012)

goon175 said:


> To this day I still have unfinished business in the Army, things that I want to accomplish but haven't yet.



You and me alike brother.  As someone said recently, "the SF Regiment hasn't seen the last of Crip."


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## 8654Maine (Dec 17, 2012)

Dude, I heard about what happened.  You've got cojones the size of Texas.

Hang tough, bro.


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## Sandman3 (Feb 12, 2013)

Interesting topic, I think a lot of guys don't consider it because it sets failure in their mind.  But failing to plan, is planning to fail.  So my backup plan for whatever reason ITC goes south for me:  1st Force Indoc(granted I'm on the west coast, I'm not sure 2nd Force does this), lat move to Recon, or continue as a sniper in another battalion.


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## Centermass (Feb 12, 2013)

goon175 said:


> I was shot in OSUT, got food poisoning my first day of airborne, and fell off the fast rope tower the day before graduation at RIP. Luckily I was fortunate with recycles and second chances, but it could have just as easily went the other way.
> 
> I hate to think of what could have been, but the truth is that at multiple times I was staring failure right in the eyes.
> 
> To this day I still have unfinished business in the Army, things that I want to accomplish but haven't yet.


 
Goon's original name for this site was Shit Magnet.....


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## dirtmover (Feb 12, 2013)

Well I am in my back up plan already.  Tried out was told I wasn't what they were looking for, went back to being a Drill SGT. Had a short pity party on my layover back, got ridiculed for not making it, made DS of the Cycle that class I missed R&I for, PCSed to Carson, and now in the process of putting my CI packet together.  If I don't get selected to do that then I am going to try and becom a dog handler (31K) or do the mounted color guard and get paid by the army to ride horses lol.


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## Sandman3 (Feb 12, 2013)

^Keep pushing on sister.  =]


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## RackMaster (Feb 12, 2013)

Psst he's a Sister.  


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


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## amlove21 (Feb 12, 2013)

RackMaster said:


> Psst he's a Sister.
> 
> 
> Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk


LOL


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## Sandman3 (Feb 12, 2013)

:doh:  My apologies, I never scope the profile.  =]


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## Marauder06 (Feb 12, 2013)

dirtmover said:


> Well I am in my back up plan already. Tried out was told I wasn't what they were looking for, went back to being a Drill SGT. Had a short pity party on my layover back, got ridiculed for not making it, made DS of the Cycle that class I missed R&I for, PCSed to Carson, and now in the process of putting my CI packet together. If I don't get selected to do that then I am going to try and becom a dog handler (31K) or do the mounted color guard and get paid by the army to ride horses lol.


 

Sorry you didn't make it, I know this was something that was important to you and that you worked hard for.  But I also know that sometimes not getting what you want at the time can be an incredible blessing later on in life...


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## MilkTruckCoPilot (Feb 12, 2013)

dirtmover said:


> Well I am in my back up plan already. Tried out was told I wasn't what they were looking for, went back to being a Drill SGT. Had a short pity party on my layover back, got ridiculed for not making it, made DS of the Cycle that class I missed R&I for, PCSed to Carson, and now in the process of putting my CI packet together. If I don't get selected to do that then I am going to try and becom a dog handler (31K) *or do the mounted color guard and get paid by the army to ride horses lol.*




That sounds like a cool gig. One thing that amazes me about the service is the numerous opportunites and varying experiences one can walk away with. Goodluck in whatever you decide to do.


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## 8654Maine (Feb 13, 2013)

Oft times, the best indicator of a person's character happens after things don't go one's way.  Some would call it defeat.  I say it's a chance to show your mettle.  I could seriously dig being a K9 handler.  Good on you dirtmover.


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## 12B (Feb 13, 2013)

amlove21 said:


> I can only speak for the AF, but it's the same deal. However, you can sort of choose your path if you get good recommendations from the staff at Selection or in the pipeline. It all comes down to Uncle Sam- but simply throwing a dart at a list of career fields isn't exactly prudent.
> 
> And I know the Xray program is gone now- but there was a good amount of time where guys weren't MOS qualed prior to the SF route. Thats the way it is in the AF, and has been for a bit. You can come in right off the street to be a PJ with no training and no idea what other jobs are about or available.
> 
> Furthermore, is getting out an option? If SOF isn't it, are you getting out of the military? How long till you can go back and try again? What job would better prepare you for the re-attack? Get you out of pipeline schools, etc?


 the xray program is still there, they just got really selective as to who gets that contract. as for those of us already in the army MOS-Q you attend SFAS in a TDY status and if you dont make it for whatever the reason you just return to your current MOS and unit and wait a year til you can possibly go try again. as for the Xrays the 11B ait is part of their pipeline so they usually get sent to the 82nd as 11B.

as for myself if i dont make it, just readjust training and try again when i can get another spot in SFAS


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## amlove21 (Feb 14, 2013)

12B said:


> the xray program is still there, they just got really selective as to who gets that contract. as for those of us already in the army MOS-Q you attend SFAS in a TDY status and if you dont make it for whatever the reason you just return to your current MOS and unit and wait a year til you can possibly go try again. as for the Xrays the 11B ait is part of their pipeline so they usually get sent to the 82nd as 11B.
> 
> as for myself if i dont make it, just readjust training and try again when i can get another spot in SFAS


Appreciate the input! Thanks.


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## pardus (Feb 15, 2013)

12B said:


> the xray program is still there, they just got really selective as to who gets that contract. as for those of us already in the army MOS-Q you attend SFAS in a TDY status and if you dont make it for whatever the reason you just return to your current MOS and unit and wait a year til you can possibly go try again. as for the Xrays the 11B ait is part of their pipeline so they usually get sent to the 82nd as 11B.


 
How do you know this?


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## 12B (Feb 15, 2013)

Well I was working with the SF recruitor for my post until I got stress fractures in my shins last fall. When I was switching over from the National Guard to the Active Army 18X was one of my MOS choices, due to family circumstances at that time I didnt take it. That was back in the spring of 2011, however we get guys here all the time that washed out of the x-ray program did a year in the 82nd and then PCSd from there to us. From what they say it hasnt changed any.


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## goon175 (Feb 15, 2013)

As far as how easy it is to get an 18x contract, speaking strictly from a recruiting stand point, it is extremely easy provided the person meets the minimum requirements (107 GT Score and eligible for a Secret clearance being the main things).


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## TLDR20 (Feb 15, 2013)

107 not 110?


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## goon175 (Feb 15, 2013)

107, both Ranger and SF lowered the minimum GT score for some reason. My guess: When it was 110, a 3 point waiver could be authorized. "can be authorized" might as well read "will be authorized" when it comes to USAREC. So I think they said "fuck it, just make it 107 then". Also, I have heard for ranger slots they will waive it down to 105 for guys who pick up the contract in AIT and have exceptional PT scores. I don't agree with either unit lowering it below 110, but I guess it is what it is.


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## Atlas (Feb 15, 2013)

If I fail Id go for infantry and if I get to be more specific id try for 21B.  Either would give me better experience as to what the life is like and would give me some time to work on the reasons I didn't make it the first time.  Even if I have to wait years to retry selection it will just give me more knowledge/prep to go back at it again.  If I made it through and got assigned to a unit the second time id be more valuable to them having some experience versus where I am currently.

The Cadre know what they want and what the unit will need.  If I give up after 1 failed attempt and write off my goals then 1. It must not have been all that important 2. They were right to deny me. 

If someone signs an 18x and does not make it through selection do they have a choice as to where they go from there?  I was under the impression if I failed id go straight to 11B end of story..


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## Red Ryder (Feb 15, 2013)

goon175 said:


> 107, both Ranger and SF lowered the minimum GT score for some reason. My guess: When it was 110, a 3 point waiver could be authorized. "can be authorized" might as well read "will be authorized" when it comes to USAREC. So I think they said "fuck it, just make it 107 then". Also, I have heard for Ranger slots they will waive it down to 105 for guys who pick up the contract in AIT and have exceptional PT scores. I don't agree with either unit lowering it below 110, but I guess it is what it is.


I scored 108. Would I be allowed to retake the ASVAB to bump my score up to 110? I would feel better knowing I met the old standards.


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## goon175 (Feb 16, 2013)

No, if you score over a 50 on your AFQT, then you MEPCOM won't let you retake the test. Once you get to your unit you can do the BSEP class and raise your score up to a 110 though.


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## Red Ryder (Feb 16, 2013)

Thanks I'll do that. 

When I was taking the ASVAB the test administrator stopped everyone to say that a guy who just got finished had scored the highest he'd ever seen, he started clapping then half the people in the classroom were clapping. I finished shortly after and all I got was a handshake and a "that's a fine score young man." 

I walked out feeling dumber then when I walked in.


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## goon175 (Feb 16, 2013)

haha thats kind of funny


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## Polar Bear (Feb 16, 2013)

Now have to go look to see what my GT score was

Edit to add boy did my recruiter screw me GT 118 and I took 11B


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## Salt USMC (Feb 16, 2013)

127 GT here.

GT score, along with DLAB score (unless you're a linguist) ranks pretty high up there with "shit that doesn't matter"




Although, for the record I did get a 122 DLAB, which made me feel pretty smart at the time.


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## goon175 (Feb 16, 2013)

GT score matters for a lot of things actually. There are many paths in the military that require a certain GT score, not just for MOS's, but certain units and certain schools as well.


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## MilkTruckCoPilot (Feb 18, 2013)

Deathy McDeath said:


> 127 GT here.
> 
> GT score, along with DLAB score (unless you're a linguist) ranks pretty high up there with "shit that doesn't matter"
> 
> ...


 
I scored 89, 85 and then 113 on the DLAB. I don't believe it's an accurate guage for measuring one's ability to learn a language. The test is just so bizarre. There's a book out there, google "delta and DLAB." Helped raise my score from 85-113..


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## Salt USMC (Feb 18, 2013)

goon175 said:


> GT score matters for a lot of things actually. There are many paths in the military that require a certain GT score, not just for MOS's, but certain units and certain schools as well.


You're totally right.  I should've said something along the line of "Above 110 it doent matter".



MilkTruckCoPilot said:


> I scored 89, 85 and then 113 on the DLAB. I don't believe it's an accurate guage for measuring one's ability to learn a language. The test is just so bizarre. There's a book out there, google "delta and DLAB." Helped raise my score from 85-113..


 
I think its a pretty good indicator of the ability to learn and apply grammar rules, but that misses the other big part of language learning: Ability to memorize and use vocabulary.  Take me for example: I can say that I speak 5 languages; English, Japanese, German, Dari and Farsi.  Of those, I can apply grammar rules pretty well, but I dont remember shit for vocabulary for anything besides Dari/Farsi.  And even then, it took me daily drills while in Afghanistan to retain that stuff, because my memory is pretty crap.  So yeah, I scored well on the DLAB, but my ability to learn languages is still more constrained than the test would have you think.


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## goon175 (Feb 18, 2013)

I'll agree with that. 110 is pretty much the highest thresh hold you will see out there.


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## 12B (Feb 19, 2013)

Atlas said:


> If I fail Id go for infantry and if I get to be more specific id try for 21B. Either would give me better experience as to what the life is like and would give me some time to work on the reasons I didn't make it the first time. Even if I have to wait years to retry selection it will just give me more knowledge/prep to go back at it again. If I made it through and got assigned to a unit the second time id be more valuable to them having some experience versus where I am currently.
> 
> The Cadre know what they want and what the unit will need. If I give up after 1 failed attempt and write off my goals then 1. It must not have been all that important 2. They were right to deny me.
> 
> If someone signs an 18x and does not make it through selection do they have a choice as to where they go from there? I was under the impression if I failed id go straight to 11B end of story..


 
 I am a 21B and from my experience  i would say just go with the Infantry if you can. From what I've been told by the guys who didn't make it you just go 11B now, since you do 11B OSUT before you report for pre-SFAS, however i worked with a guy who was an x-ray from 2006 and he got to choose and became a 21B. It seems like they have made changes over the past few years.


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## TB1077 (Feb 27, 2013)

Well it sucks to have to say this, but I had to act on my backup plan.  Actually I had to come up with an alternative backup plan and then act on it.  I just got home after completing airborne school.  I was supposed to be in SOPC hold right now with my buddies.  Unfortunately something came up at home that required me to drop my SF contract.  I'm being sent to an Airborne Infantry unit until I resolve my issue and get to the next SFAD to hopefully earn my ticket to SFAS.  If all goes as planned, I will only be 4-6 months behind where I wanted to be.

No use crying over this, so I'll make the best of it.  I spent a good chunk of OSUT and BAC sick and I feel as though I actually lost strength while there.  So I'll be able to get into even better shape than I was prior to shipping.


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## SkrewzLoose (Feb 27, 2013)

I don't think anyone goes through any kind of basic training 100% healthy the entire time.  I felt like a different kind of shit every week it seemed like.
Sorry to hear about your set back.  Get back into shape and kill it next time around.


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## Tadpole95 (Mar 17, 2013)

amlove21 said:


> For all you SOF wanna/gonna be's out there- I know this couldn't POSSIBLY happen to you, but what happens if you go out there and don't make the cut? What if you get injured in your selection, or it turns out you just aren't ready for your services' special operations job? Have you considered the A of your PACE? How about the E?
> 
> Let's just say, for the sake of the thread, that you don't get on to a team- what then?


I want to begin by cautioning others on myself. I am very straight forward and abrupt. I do not waste time with the tiny minutiae. I speak for many when I say failure is not an option. Just as when the president, or grandma in a hostage rescue, needs a no-fail option, they need to be able to trust the ones wearing the scope or boots on the ground to do their job and not doubt themselves. In saying, I firmly believe that when I step foot on Indoc, that it will be the first and last time. Failure is not an option and neither is quitting. Placing "Back Up" thoughts in your mind is when you'll have to have it. Cause then you accept failure.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 17, 2013)

Tadpole95 said:


> I want to begin by cautioning others on myself. I am very straight forward and abrupt. I do not waste time with the tiny minutiae. I speak for many when I say failure is not an option. Just as when the president, or grandma in a hostage rescue, needs a no-fail option, they need to be able to trust the ones wearing the scope or boots on the ground to do their job and not doubt themselves. In saying, I firmly believe that when I step foot on Indoc, that it will be the first and last time. Failure is not an option and neither is quitting. Placing "Back Up" thoughts in your mind is when you'll have to have it. Cause then you accept failure.


----------



## LimaOscarSierraTango (Mar 17, 2013)

Tadpole95 said:


> I want to begin by cautioning others on myself. I am very straight forward and abrupt. I do not waste time with the tiny minutiae. I speak for many when I say failure is not an option. Just as when the president, or grandma in a hostage rescue, needs a no-fail option, they need to be able to trust the ones wearing the scope or boots on the ground to do their job and not doubt themselves. In saying, I firmly believe that when I step foot on Indoc, that it will be the first and last time. Failure is not an option and neither is quitting. Placing "Back Up" thoughts in your mind is when you'll have to have it. Cause then you accept failure.


 
How is having a contingency plan accepting failure?  Re-read this thread and you might understand my question.  I understand where you are coming from, but it is an immature/ignorant response IMO.  Read up and see if you find the meaning behind the question at the heart of this thread.


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## Atlas (Mar 17, 2013)

Tadpole95 said:


> I want to begin by cautioning others on myself. I am very straight forward and abrupt. I do not waste time with the tiny minutiae. I speak for many when I say failure is not an option. Just as when the president, or grandma in a hostage rescue, needs a no-fail option, they need to be able to trust the ones wearing the scope or boots on the ground to do their job and not doubt themselves. In saying, I firmly believe that when I step foot on Indoc, that it will be the first and last time. Failure is not an option and neither is quitting. Placing "Back Up" thoughts in your mind is when you'll have to have it. Cause then you accept failure.



It isn't preparing yourself for quitting.  Its a backup plan.  You don't have to quit but if you break an ankle, tear a muscle or get no-go'ed on an event you're done.  Then you need to know where your next step is.  As in everything, things don't go 100% according to plan.  When that happens you need to make moves to keep moving forward.  Without taking other possiblities into account you'll only end up hurting yourself in the long run.  I have no intention of quiting or failing but im sure neither to 75-80% that washout.  

These guys wouldn't have started this thread unless it was with our best interests at heart.  Im sure some of them have had to take more than 1 crack at making it through selection.


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## amlove21 (Mar 17, 2013)

Tadpole95 said:


> I want to begin by cautioning others on myself.


Noted.



Tadpole95 said:


> I speak for many when I say failure is not an option.


You speak for yourself, none others. The others don't need your representation here. We don't delete posts, edit posts, or discourage from discourse. Look through my postings- I encourage dissent from the newest person to the most experienced professional. You don't need to speak for anyone, just as you wouldn't want anyone to speak for you. And if you say "failure is not an option", I suspect you haven't studied your SOF history properly. Failure is well documented.



Tadpole95 said:


> Just as when the president, or grandma in a hostage rescue, needs a no-fail option, they need to be able to trust the ones wearing the scope or boots on the ground to do their job and not doubt themselves.


Stop it. You have no clue what it means to do this job- from the mission, the trust others place in us, or what the mindset of the individual needs to be. You are making an assumption from a faulty set of facts.


Tadpole95 said:


> In saying, I firmly believe that when I step foot on Indoc, that it will be the first and last time. Failure is not an option and neither is quitting. Placing "Back Up" thoughts in your mind is when you'll have to have it. Cause then you accept failure.


I am not real sure if you've read the rest of this thread, but it appears you haven't. We have already discussed your point of view and found it to be naive. I haven't been through indoc in a while, but last I remember we said "Never Quit" every single time we left that building. 

Since you disregarded prior information and took a hard line in public on your second post to the forum, here is your charge- you explain to me how it is that if you fail at indoc, that it will be your first and last time that you'll be there. You're telling me that if you fail, you will be done? That's it? You'll take that shot on the chin and roll over, never to return? One setback and you're done? 

I will say it again, because it bears repeating and you apparently missed it. Failure_ is_ an option. _You_ can fail. And if you become a PJ, you'll literally fail hundreds of times in your career, and that's just getting your beret. If you think your "no-fail" attitude is going to get you there, I absolutely can not wait until you work for me on a team, if you get that far.


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## Tadpole95 (Mar 17, 2013)

Read and understood-LOST&Atlas

LOST- in order to redeem myself from my "immaturatity/ignorance" I will say that I say this from what I've been told. When you want something you fight for it. When you fit into something, you work endlessly. If I hit a nerve or said something that was "untrue" for the thread then accept this as my redemption. Now, as I said that, it will stoke others to view they're plans in a different way. (Reason for the thread, right?)

Atlas- thank you for how you said what you had to say. Very well spoken and very well received. Mark of a leader. If I may ask, what is your current status? 
But yes, I have thought about injuries forcing me out of the position I want. The reason for practicing early, stressing the small things, never sacrificing form for what's easier. 
And Very true about plans never going right. That's why we make different egress routes, right? Different ways to the exact same spot. Home. 
"Boots point forward"


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## ProPatria (Mar 17, 2013)

Tadpole95,

I highly disagree with your post. When I went to selection I had every thought in my head that I will finish and be successful. That being said, I knew the very high potential for injury or just getting no-go'ed and not getting selected so I told myself that if that happens I will go back to the battalion and be the best Recce Patrolman, machine gunner or whatever they wanted me to be to the best of my ability. 

With that said, do you think that had me thinking I wasn't going to finish or not get selected? If you said yes your wrong and you need to work on things. 

You got any questions with what I've said feel free to PM and I'll try to elaborate.


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## AWP (Mar 18, 2013)

Listen Tadpole....your jingoistic motospeak sounds.....it sounds just awesome, killer. Here's the problem:

It is garbage, utter nonsense.

What video game did you pull this from? Do you speak like this day-to-day? Do you blouse your pants in your boots? Are you "that guy" in high school who tries to act like he knows everything about the military and no one talks to you, but they're just "pansy liberals" who don't "get" what it is to be an American?

I love these teenagers who spout crap like "With your shield or on it" or make some connection to the 300 or whatever. Digest a speech from Shakespeare if you want to show some warrior-monk chops, quote Sun-Tsu or the Wu-Tang Clan or whatever, develop that deep sounding stone-cold-killer vibe. I get it, I do...I understand the process.

It is still crap.

When I read a post so hardcore it makes a John Philip Sousa march sound like Das Kapital the Opera, then I know we're in for a treat. You're taking cool sounding phrases and stacking them up like Legos. The problem with Legos is that one day you lose one, then you step on it, it hurts your foot, and then you hop into traffic where a bus runs you over.

I'm going to go with troll. You are probably still in high school, but you're trolling. You can't be serious. Besides, a week in FL in early March? Isn't Spring Break in a week or two?


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## policemedic (Mar 18, 2013)

Tadpole95 said:


> I want to begin by cautioning others on myself. I am very straight forward and abrupt. I do not waste time with the tiny minutiae. I speak for many when I say failure is not an option. Just as when the president, or grandma in a hostage rescue, needs a no-fail option, they need to be able to trust the ones wearing the scope or boots on the ground to do their job and not doubt themselves. In saying, I firmly believe that when I step foot on Indoc, that it will be the first and last time. Failure is not an option and neither is quitting. Placing "Back Up" thoughts in your mind is when you'll have to have it. Cause then you accept failure.


 
Sadly, you don't know what you don't know.  I don't say that a lot, and I generally stay out of .mil SOF discussions as my selection experience is limited to SWAT, but _damn_.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 18, 2013)

I hope everyone understands that in a SOF pipeline it isn't just likely, it is a statistical probability that you WILL NOT make it. Most SOF pipelines have a 70+% attrition rate. Just keep that in mind


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## Squidward (Mar 18, 2013)

Tadpole95 said:


> Read and understood-LOST&Atlas
> 
> LOST- in order to redeem myself from my "immaturatity/ignorance" I will say that I say this from what I've been told. When you want something you fight for it. When you fit into something, you work endlessly. If I hit a nerve or said something that was "untrue" for the thread then accept this as my redemption. Now, as I said that, it will stoke others to view they're plans in a different way. (Reason for the thread, right?)
> 
> ...


 
Sometimes a little failure in life is good for you. Gives you some perspective on things. Makes you feel nice and small. The powers that be have a way of cutting us down to size when we've grown too tall.

I get the "failure is not an option" thing, but at some point in your travels you will contemplate stopping before the job is done. We all have. It never hurts to have a PACE plan. I never leave for work without one regardless of how good I feel about what's before me. Murphy has a way of interjecting when you least expect it. Sometimes what happens ain't up to you.

Keep in mind, getting into the unit is the easy part. 

Use your ears more than your mouth and stay humble.

Buena Suerte on your endeavors.


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## ZmanTX (Apr 10, 2013)

In response to the original question...

I plan on getting into the Air Force with another job first, most likely an Intel job like Geo Analyst or possibly an Operations Analyst (If Pararescue doesn't work out having an Intel background and experience would be good for other government jobs). Hopefully within a timely manner I can get the PRK surgery required to fix my vision and throughout that time period continue to train up to "graduation standards". By the time the healing process has taken place and the doctor gives me the approval to take the PAST I will move forward with the Pararescue process. Becoming a PJ is the main reason I'm joining the Air Force, if something happens and I don't make it  I will continue to try until I no longer can't.


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## The Hate Ape (Apr 10, 2013)

.


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## is friday (Apr 10, 2013)

Since I've closed most doors in the Marine Corps SOF or SOF-Capable to me, I'm starting to consider 18X as an option once I've hit my 2016 EAS. Don't get me wrong: I'm definitely concentrating on my 25m targets, which are Squad Leader's Course and this upcoming deployment. But, I decided to pick up "Chosen Soldier" and check out what Green Beret selection is all about. It pretty much jives with what sort of professional atmosphere I sought when going after MARSOC and Recon.

My failures, bad circumstances, and poor decisions have taught me a lot. If I'm still interested in an SOF lifestyle (and it *is* a lifestyle,) in 2016 and MARSOC is still closed to Sergeants with my TIG, it looks like the Berets is the route most viable to me.

We'll see where my head is at when I get back from deployment. I might just be satisfied with having given SOF two honest shots and getting a couple more pumps in as a grunt. MARSOC may also open back up to me, depending on the landscape.

One of the things that appeals most to me about the SOF community, be it MARSOC or Berets, is that teacher-warrior mentality. I love being a teacher as a leader and Marine, be it martial arts/nutrition/personal training/PME. FID, for that reason, seems like it would be an incredibly rewarding and satisfying endeavor for me personally. Furthermore, I think I'm a solid teacher and enjoy improving my craft so that I have more to impart to my students. (I always learn so much from my students, too. One of the most satisfying parts of being a leader to me is learning from a junior Marine.)

Looking back at myself when I first started this "journey" of seeking more and "wanting to do cool stuff" has completely changed what sort of man I am. I would hate to portray myself as a more "spiritual" man now, but I think I am that. I am an eternal student.

So yeah, if I stay in the Armed Forces, it'll likely be for another shot at SOF. That's my "back up plan" for right now.


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## 8654Maine (Apr 10, 2013)

Is Friday, that was a great, honest assessment of your endeavor.

I believe it is spot on.  In the 80's, Force Recon wouldn't even look at you unless you had a couple of pumps and experience.  They were looking for mature and hard-core, sort of like the joke about "old and bold" heroes.

I realize that things today are different, with pipelines and all, but one thing common in SOF is that not only are they are do-ers, but also great thinkers and teachers.  Maturity is the seasoning.

Good luck.  We've all had set-backs (mine was a ruptured ear drum at 120ft during dive school).  The successful use failure as an opportunity, not an excuse.


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## xGenoSiide (Jul 18, 2013)

Simple: Go back to my job and keep training and trying until I either make it or get tired of being told 'no.'


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## RQA21 (Jul 19, 2013)

If I fail to make it through Indoc due to the inability to keep up with the physical/mental stress of the course. I will first evaluate, realize, and accept my failure(s) and be clear on where my breakdown points were. Secondly I will adjust my training and focus on weaknesses/breakdown  points both mentally and physically, making them my strengths while improving the strengths I have. In the mean time while waiting for my next shot at the course, my duty is to stay focused what I have to do to make it through Indoc but also to give my 110% in whatever career field the Air Force chooses for me.

If I cannot get another chance to go back and try again,  whether it be because of injury or I realize I'm not cut out for SOF. I will work on getting my degree, finding a career path that fits me and be the best there is at what I do.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 20, 2013)

RQA21 said:


> If I fail to make it through Indoc due to the inability to keep up with the physical/mental stress of the course. I will first evaluate, realize, and accept my failure(s) and be clear on where my breakdown points were. Secondly I will adjust my training and focus on weaknesses/breakdown  points both mentally and physically, making them my strengths while improving the strengths I have. *In the mean time while waiting for my next shot at the course, my duty is to stay focused what I have to do to make it through Indoc but also to give my 110% in whatever career field the Air Force chooses for me.*
> 
> If I cannot get another chance to go back and try again,  whether it be because of injury or I realize I'm not cut out for SOF. I will work on getting my degree, finding a career path that fits me and be the best there is at what I do.


As to the bold, that can be more difficult than you might imagine...from someone who's been there.  
Nice plan B overall, though.


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## JCunning (Jul 21, 2013)

I'm an active duty Marine with 2 1/2 years in on a four year contract. I finished my first deployment to Afghanistan about 5 months ago with the VMGR. I'm an Ordnance Tech in the air wing. While I was in Afghanistan my Sgt went through the selection process for MARSOC and got accepted and is currently in the training pipeline. When I returned he highly recommended that I try out for it, and assured me that I would be a good candidate. About a month later he leaves the unit and continues on with his training. A few weeks after that I began and completed a MSG package. The more I thought about what I was doing the less fulfilled I felt. I decided to get some more information on MARSOC and get some answers. Long story short I admin closed my MSG orders and drove to Camp Pendelton to the MARSOC office to start my package. I'm attempting to get this Jan ANS class date. I have no intention whats so ever of failing out or not getting accepted. I'm doing everything I can to prepare and make myself as competitive as possible. 

However, if I'm not the type of Marine that MARSOC is looking for then I'll probably try again. If I get denied a second time I'll more than likely re-submit my MSG package and go that route.


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## digrar (Jul 21, 2013)

@JCunning Better nip back to the start and read the rules again, you need to post an intro, everyone wants to know who you are and what you're about. http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/pages/info/


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## JCunning (Jul 21, 2013)

Thanks digrar  got it taken care of.


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## ebiaihi (Jul 22, 2013)

If I can't cut it and don't make it through the CCT selection course for whatever reason I'll select the best MOS available to me and see how much I enjoy life in the military. If I do enjoy life in the military I'll get a MOS that isn't needs of the Air Force and do something I'll enjoy, if I don't I'll find a career in the civilian world.


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## RQA21 (Jul 24, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> As to the bold, that can be more difficult than you might imagine...from someone who's been there.
> Nice plan B overall, though.


Thanks for the input Skrewz,

I believe it, I can only guess as to how difficult of task it really is. Hopefully I won't have to use plan B, considering I've yet to even get to the 25m target of plan A (Basic). 

What did you do differently to prepare and be successful the time through?


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## JoesPizza11B (Jul 24, 2013)

I already love being an Infantryman, I simply want to serve with the best Infantry Unit out there which IMHO is the 75th Ranger Regiment. Step 1 is just getting an option 40 contract or a chance to go to RASP from Airborne School, If I dont make it through RASP, I would be perfectly happy to Serve in the 82nd or 101st until I get another shot at RASP, but honestly if I served my whole career as an 11B in a RA unit I would be satisfied, I just dont want to be in the Guard anymore. Im not sure how the saying goes exactly but I think it applies to this whole thread: "shoot for the moon and if you miss youll end up among the stars."


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## reed11b (Aug 9, 2013)

Talked to the Wing Commander of a WA ANG TACP squadron today. Would take a waiver but he sounded interested. Meet with the Reserve CA Battalion on Saturday. I think these are my plan B's if A) SFAS never works out, or I get a chance and do not get selected and B) my current sniper section continues to be a non-training focused unit.
Reed


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## TLDR20 (Aug 9, 2013)

is friday said:


> Since I've closed most doors in the Marine Corps SOF or SOF-Capable to me, I'm starting to consider 18X as an option once I've hit my 2016 EAS. Don't get me wrong: I'm definitely concentrating on my 25m targets, which are Squad Leader's Course and this upcoming deployment. But, I decided to pick up "Chosen Soldier" and check out what Green Beret selection is all about. It pretty much jives with what sort of professional atmosphere I sought when going after MARSOC and Recon.
> 
> My failures, bad circumstances, and poor decisions have taught me a lot. If I'm still interested in an SOF lifestyle (and it *is* a lifestyle,) in 2016 and MARSOC is still closed to Sergeants with my TIG, it looks like the Berets is the route most viable to me.
> 
> ...



Just a heads up, most Special Forces guys do not really refer to themselves as Green Berets, and especially not "Berets".


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## Pharaoh19XX (Aug 9, 2013)

If I don't make the cut I will request to go to corpsman and depending on if it was a DOR or injury related drop I would opt to go back and try again or try for MARSOC.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 9, 2013)

Pharaoh19XX said:


> If I don't make the cut I will request to go to corpsman and depending on if it was a DOR or injury related drop I would opt to go back and try again or try for MARSOC.



What is your goal?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 9, 2013)

Damn all the Delta A&S guys who didn't get selected must have had some kind of quit in their plans, you know those top performers from other SOF units... I guess they just didn't refuse to quit enough.

Crazy quitters...


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## Pharaoh19XX (Aug 9, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> What is your goal?





cback0220 said:


> What is your goal?


My goal is to become a SEAL.


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## MOTOMETO (Aug 9, 2013)

Pharaoh19XX said:


> My goal is to become a SEAL.





Pharaoh19XX said:


> or try for MARSOC.



I think you're very confused.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 10, 2013)

Pharaoh19XX said:


> If I don't make the cut I will *request to go to corpsman* and depending on if it was a DOR or injury related drop I would opt to go back and try again or *try for MARSOC*.





Pharaoh19XX said:


> My goal is to *become a SEAL*.


Do you have any idea what in the bloody hell you're talking about?

ETA: IF you get an SO contract and make it to the point where quitting is an option and if you decide to DOR, you WILL NOT be "requesting to go" anything.  You'll be given a list of available rates and you'll be choosing from that list.  
However, based on your postings here, none of this will be a real issue for you.


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## Dtdomination3 (Nov 20, 2014)

The hard part for me is that there isn't really anything else that I want to do in the Air Force other than AFSOF. If I fail I'll probably try and find another MOS, possibly Security Forces and just keep training until I feel like I can attempt the pipeline again. If AFSOF just won't happen, then I'll try to transfer to the Army and go airborne.


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## x SF med (Nov 20, 2014)

Dtdomination3 said:


> The hard part for me is that there isn't really anything else that I want to do in the Air Force other than AFSOF. If I fail I'll probably try and find another MOS, possibly Security Forces and just keep training until I feel like I can attempt the pipeline again. If AFSOF just won't happen, then I'll try to transfer to the Army and go airborne.



So, basically, you just have no clue what you want to do except it has to be something 'cool'.  You'll end up wandering around clueless your entire enlistment, because anything you do will not be good enough for you when you fail multiple pipelines for lack of motivation and focus.


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## Dtdomination3 (Nov 20, 2014)

I'm not going for "coolness" when looking for an MOS. That's just silly. Besides Security Forces really aren't that cool. If I didn't have motivation I wouldn't work out three times a day and constantly push myself to do better and better every day. I have a proud family history in airborne, so that's where my idea for being an airborne comes from. I'm not too keen on being a pilot, so Security Forces is one of the only options that I know of that's a more foot soldier MOS.


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## Dtdomination3 (Nov 20, 2014)

Also, this is a backup plan. A worst scenario plan. I will do every single thing in my power to make it through the pipeline. I'm determined no matter what anyone else says.


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## pardus (Nov 20, 2014)

Dtdomination3 said:


> I'm not going for "coolness" when looking for an MOS. That's just silly. Besides Security Forces really aren't that cool. If I didn't have motivation I wouldn't work out three times a day and constantly push myself to do better and better every day. I have a proud family history in airborne, so that's where my idea for being an airborne comes from. I'm not too keen on being a pilot, so Security Forces is one of the only options that I know of that's a more foot soldier MOS.



3 x a day... Impressive.
What's your work out program? 
What are your run times, push up, sit up, pull up counts etc...?


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## x SF med (Nov 20, 2014)

Dtdomination3 said:


> I'm not going for "coolness" when looking for an MOS. That's just silly. Besides Security Forces really aren't that cool. If I didn't have motivation I wouldn't work out three times a day and constantly push myself to do better and better every day. I have a proud family history in airborne, so that's where my idea for being an airborne comes from. I'm not too keen on being a pilot, so Security Forces is one of the only options that I know of that's a more foot soldier MOS.





Dtdomination3 said:


> Also, this is a backup plan. A worst scenario plan. I will do every single thing in my power to make it through the pipeline. I'm determined no matter what anyone else says.



You love to argue don't you?  Go back and read everything you've posted with a neutral eye...  it's all about cool...  CMSG...  this equates to um, nothing.  You are a 16 year old in a Military Boarding School, which usually means your family thought you needed some discipline, like my little brother who went to a Catholic Military Boarding School, for just that reason.

The senior members and staff will try to make those who choose to join the mentor program think about their choices, motivations, preparedness, and goals...  the whys, what-ifs, perceptions they are putting out and their attitude.   So far, your entitled attitude, and propensities for argument and self aggrandizement show you have a ton of maturing and thinking to get accomplished...  which is true of all 16 year olds.

What is behind your motivation to be in AFSOF, and which part...  there are multiple jobs to choose from CCT, PJ, SOWT, etc...  each with their own vagaries.  And then, you state  if AFSOF doesn't happen, then I'll go Army Airborne.  Son, this is the day of demobilization and draw down... you better know what you want before you attempt to enlist, and have everything ready, standards are going up and numbers are going down.  I'm giving you a reality check...  you better have multiple backup plans, and well formulated ones at that, or you will get steamrolled.

Think about how what you say and how you respond is perceived by others, especially those who have volunteered to help mentor you.  Be a sponge, soak up information, and remember... those with experience aren't always going to think you are the best thing ever, even though that's what you've been told by society.  Be quiet, prove yourself by action, be humble and give a little instead of taking...  and don't argue with those who are trying to help you do a self awareness and perception check.


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## Dtdomination3 (Nov 21, 2014)

I actually had to beg my parents to send me to Valley Forge. My teachers and family friends say I act more like an adult than a teenager

But, SF med, I greatly appreciate your critizism. I don't know a quarter of the stuff that you know and that's why I joined this site. I really want to learn from people with experience to help prepare me for my journey. I understand that the airborne units are starting to size down, but I don't know when or by how much.

My run time is a 7 flat (having major hip problems and seeing a doctor). My push up numbers are 90 on a good day, 80 or so on a bad. Sit ups are in the hundreds, and pull ups are about 20.

Sorry for the multiple responses, I'm writing them as I come across a point that I'd like to discuss. I realize that being a CMSG means absolutely nothing and I have no intentions to try to throw that around. I just included that in my intro to show that I've worked hard here. I also apologize if any of what I'm saying comes across as argueing ir being disrespectful, that is not the intention by any means. I do need to work on being more humble. I let too many things go to my head and make me feel like I'm special. I work on that constantly because I know that it can be the downfall of a candidate. Thank you for your time.


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## TLDR20 (Nov 21, 2014)

Just read more and post less @Dtdomination3. Whether you are right or wrong normally isn't the point. You should know the way it works in the military if you are at Valley Forge. When someone in a position of authority says you are wrong, you are fucking wrong. There is no explaining to be done, no apologies are needed. Change what was wrong and move the fuck on smartly. This advice is something that is important because in SOF no one cares that you are "working on the problem" people want you to fix yourself quietly and then for whatever the problem was to be fixed. So just read more and post less for a week or so, see how the board works. Honestly boards like these have a lot to offer to someone in your shoes. I was there just 11 years ago, I was a 16 year old contemplating a career in SOF. I came on a board, put on cleats and proceeded to straight up stomp all over my dick. So I understand. Heed my words. Shut your face and read.


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## Raptor (Nov 21, 2014)

Well, if I didn't make it, I would hopefully get lucky, stay in the Air Force, and get the chance to try again. However, with the reduction in force, there is the chance I'll be kicked out, which if that happened I would hope to get an reenlistment code and try again. If that doesn't happen, well shit, I guess I'd have to move on, as much as I would hate it. I don't have any idea where I would go from there, if that happened, to be honest.


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## Nbrac27 (Jan 8, 2015)

I may be resurecting this thread from the dead, and to be honest did not read through most of it because I know a lot of people on here were probably just like me before I joined, "Why need a back up plan if I plan to make it?". I just want to impart some knowledge and tell you that's stupid, immature in a sense of real world thinking, and being very very unprepared for if it happens.

In my case it did happen and I was not prepared. I joined the Corps under a Recon option contract, and figured "Well hell, even if I dont make it I'll be filtered into an infantry unit like my recruiter told me and try again when I'm more prepared." Negative. For any of you who stumble into this thread and havent enlisted/commissioned yet, and are gung-ho "I'm going to be SF!!", you really need to do research on what could happen to you should you not make it. And nothing against recruiters, but for the love of god do not soak up all their bullshit like a sponge, most of them will not tell you that should you not make it in your training for whatever reason you are now at the beck and whim of the branch you joined on where you go next, and could like me end up getting sent to Supply.

Take it from a guy that it actually happened too, have a back up a plan, find people who have made it and use and abuse their knowledge to help you out, and take a real look at just how ready you think you are and then honestly and truthfully run it by one of them.  Because regardless of how motivated and 'never quit' attitude you have, how physically fit you are, until your feet are placed to the fire you dont have the slightest idea of what you're in for.

I still remember to this day what one of my MART instructors said about the pool, "I don't care how confident in the water you are, you could be Michael Phelps, what we do here is made to make you uncomfortable and we are going to make you uncomfortable, it is meant to be that way so when the moment arises that shit hits the fan while you're in it, you aren't caught with your head between your legs."

To all of you motivators who are going to try I wish you the absolute best of luck, and I hope you take some of what I said to heart and really set up a solid back up plan for if things go wrong. Always be prepared.

-Nick


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## JAX61192 (Feb 23, 2015)

Question and I'm gonna read through the thread to see if it was answered with the 10 pages but if I'm already in the Army as a 68w and fail out of Q course would I go back to being a 68w I feel like going Special operations in your initial enlistment isn't always the best thing


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## x SF med (Feb 23, 2015)

JAX61192 said:


> Question and I'm gonna read through the thread to see if it was answered with the 10 pages but if I'm already in the Army as a 68w and fail out of Q course would I go back to being a 68w I feel like going Special operations in your initial enlistment isn't always the best thing



1. Your command of the English language is atrocious.  Grammar, spelling, punctuation and capitalization are very important for multiple reasons - comprehension by others, proof of attention to detail, proof of maturity and proof of professionalism.  If you ask questions of professionals, it is a sure thing you will NOT be taken seriously with soup sandwich level construction and logical structure as evidenced by the post quoted.

2. You did not ask a question (as I'm assuming that was your intent based on the first word of your post) you made statements.

3. Every statement you made, albeit they were jammed together into that horrible run on drivel you posted, is fully addressed here on the site in multiple places.  STFU and read, use the search button to qualify your queries and get answers, then if something is unclear - qualify and distill your information needs into coherent packages and present them in a professional and concise manner. (see point 1 for further reasoning)

4. Your focus at this point should be getting qualified to join the military - good PT scores, communication ability, maturity, professionalism and drive.  You haven't told us anything but that you are 22 and have 3 kids - that, does not speak to maturity - just to your inability to keep it in your pants.  Will you be able to be separated from your family for long periods of time, relying on your wife to take care of family business without your help?  Will you be comfortable giving your wife Power of Attorney over all of your property and money while you are away?

5. You need to give us some information to allow us to define how to respond to your future questions/statements - so you do not get hammered by a bunch of experienced military/SOF guys for being the idiot you appear to be at the moment.

6. Realize that what you think you know and what you really know at this point are so far apart they are in different universes.

7. Focus on each 25 meter target as it presents, overcome it and then move to the next while gaining an awareness of the next further target.  Your targets right now are: figuring out if your family situation lends itself to your joining the military without imploding or exploding; figuring out what you want as an initial MOS and whether you are qualified to attempt it; making the hard decision as to whether you are suited to any of the SOF units; getting prepared to meet entry requirements; and finally actually joining the military.

8. If you are not selected at SFAS as an 18x, you go to the needs of the Army as an 11B.  If you are MOS qualified in another specialty, you go back to your unit.   If you are selected and subsequently fail/are removed from the Q Course, you will be open for assignment at the needs of the Army in the MOS you are most qualified to fill.

Side note - enlisting at 22, with a wife and 3 kids is going to be excruciatingly hard until you get to SSG - which could be as far out as  7-10 years.  Although this is wholly demeaning and hard to say, the truth needs to be told- As an E1 to E4, your family will probably be on assistance (WIC or Welfare) if your wife does not work or does not have a good job.  This kills many marriages.  Know what you are getting in to - the military is not for everybody and will not treat you like a civilian employer - especially if you are in training or deployed.  It is not a fall back for a bad civilian job market, it is new way of life, a different world that you can even imagine right now.

Chew on this, do your research and come back after reading with some relevant and well formed questions, you might get some more help.

Final Note - your post is in the wrong place.


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## 8654Maine (Feb 24, 2015)

JAX61192 said:


> ...your post...



Your post should have read:  "Roger that.  Thanks."

I would like you and others who post to know a few things:

(1)  I (and others on here) really want folks to succeed.
(2)  I (and others on here) really don't take pleasure in criticism.  (Not all the time).
(3)  A simple one line response is better than many.  Concise brevity is special.
(4)  "let's get a few things squared away"...just isn't a good conversation starter.
(5)  you'll be getting other feedback shortly.


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## JAX61192 (Feb 24, 2015)

Roger that


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## amlove21 (Feb 24, 2015)

JAX61192 said:


> Sir lets get a few things squared away


LOL wow. Fun thought experiment-

A brand new guy at your MMA gym walks in and steps all over his dick with one of the black belts that runs the gym. The black belt replies and tries to get the young guy to see the error of his ways, because that's how that community runs itself. 

The new guy starts his reply with, "Hold on bro, let's get some shit straight." How do you think that would go? How about, what if you were the black belt? 

Either way-


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## JAX61192 (Feb 24, 2015)

Lol 


amlove21 said:


> LOL wow. Fun thought experiment-
> 
> A brand new guy at your MMA gym walks in and steps all over his dick with one of the black belts that runs the gym. The black belt replies and tries to get the young guy to see the error of his ways, because that's how that community runs itself.
> 
> ...




Lol I follow you won't happen again, I'll just make sure not to type like an idiot


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## amlove21 (Feb 24, 2015)

JAX61192 said:


> Lol
> 
> 
> 
> Lol I follow you won't happen again, I'll just make sure not to type like an idiot


Sounds good. Lots of reading, a little posting, and learn. 

Moving along.


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## x SF med (Feb 24, 2015)

@JAX61192

Were I you, I would reassess everything you said in your rebuttal post.  Especially in light of the egregious grammar usage and punctuation errors.  Professionalism on the internet is espoused by a strict attention to detail, writing like you truly understand the English language, and knowing your audience.

Had you read this entire thread, and a few others in the SOF specific area, you would have seen others verbally body slammed for the same writing style (text speak).

None of the information in your rebuttal post explains anything, it is a "Why are you picking on me, I'm great, I know everything", post.  Except maybe points 7 and 8.  In regard to point 8, only you know if you want to attempt a selection course, the odds are great that you will not be chosen - there are myriad reasons for being a non-select, and in my reading of your posts, you show attributes for non-selection.

BTW, you need to realize that any branch you choose, an instructor for the SOF pipeline is here, and most of them read the posts for hopefuls.  A couple of true idiots have been turned back essentially at the gates of the compound by dint of this.

It's your choice in how this progresses.  You are nothing but a hopeful here, you need to earn acceptance.


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## JAX61192 (Feb 24, 2015)

x SF med said:


> @JAX61192
> 
> Were I you, I would reassess everything you said in your rebuttal post.  Especially in light of the egregious grammar usage and punctuation errors.  Professionalism on the internet is espoused by a strict attention to detail, writing like you truly understand the English language, and knowing your audience.
> 
> ...



Roger


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## amorris127289 (Feb 26, 2015)

If for some reason I do not make it my plan B is to try and get a Pilot slot with AFSOC or an Intel job in the Air Force. The reason for these decisions is because if I can not be an Operator I want to help them get their missions done and provide all the support I can to directly to ST teams.


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## Mor13 (Feb 27, 2015)

MOTOMETO said:


> If you come in the Marine Corps with an 03 contract, and you attempt Recon and get dropped, you will be assigned to a regular infantry unit.



A buddy of mine DOR at MART and got sent to Comm. So if say it varies from person to person.


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## Chet-Manley (Mar 1, 2015)

Well I got plans on plans, if I can't get in to NSW at all then I'll get out and try for some high speed army shit, if that doesn't work then maybe some agency shit, if that doesn't work then some sort of security or humanitarian aid work, and if all else fails I'll go to Texas buy a ranch plant some crop

Plant some crops and shoot guns all day* 

Damn iPhone


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## TLDR20 (Mar 1, 2015)

Chet-Manley said:


> Well I got plans on plans, if I can't get in to NSW at all then I'll get out and try for some high speed army shit, if that doesn't work then maybe some agency shit, if that doesn't work then some sort of security or humanitarian aid work, and if all else fails I'll go to Texas buy a ranch plant some crop


If you can't get into NSW, you prolly couldn't et into the Army's high speed stuff. If you couldn't get into either of those you most certainly wouldn't be welcome at the agency. The agency only takes 1 out of 100 applicants and they are all from SOF. Your plans are so far from reality it is comical.


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## Chet-Manley (Mar 1, 2015)

By get into NSW I meant cutting through the red tape that my unit and big navy enjoy putting up, not really talking about the physical and mental aspect which is stuff I'm already constantly thinking about. As for high speed army, considering I'm a Seabee right now I'll go 11b and  eat my way up the food chain if I have to. It's my dream to be a seal, but I'm a realist and I'll adjust fire if I have to, whatever it takes to get the job done. 

As for agency, where there's a will theres a way, just because some statistic says I shouldn't do it doesn't mean I'm not going to try my damnedest to get there.


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 1, 2015)

What red tape is your unit and big Navy putting up to keep you out of NSW?
What does being a Seabee have to do with being an 11B?
Also, it's Navy, Army and SEAL.


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## Chet-Manley (Mar 1, 2015)

Still gotta get my warfare pin (testing in a month), have to get eye surgery, ( battalion medical and base medical are pretty quiet with each other so I'm gonna have to be on that) and since we just returned from deployment I can't schedule anything or send a chit but I'm gonna get that set up ASAFP. I have to  wait another year before sending a package so that's whatever, more training time. Then when I can send my package up I'm going to have to pretty much negotiate my crossing rates. Plus our admin is pretty bad, at one point I was homeless for a few months because of them for example.

As for the Seabee thing, 11B is high speed as hell compared to my job so its a viable option

Sorry for the lack of clarity guys, kinda off my game today.


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 1, 2015)

Dude you are embarrassing yourself.


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## Chet-Manley (Mar 1, 2015)

Yeah I'm gonna stfu now, this hole's pretty deep.


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## digrar (Mar 1, 2015)

Gotta, gonna, kinda, whatever. Do you see anyone else in here writing like a child? My initial impression is that you're 17 going on 18 and don't have the maturity to do anything that you've mentioned above.
That may not be the case, but that is the vibe you are giving off. Want to be taken seriously, write like a normal human and not a 13 year old girl texting on a double dose of Ritalin.


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 1, 2015)

Have you contacted a local motivator to determine if any of that would prevent you from putting in an SO contract? I have to believe that's different than cross rating, in which case you'd go through your CCC. Special programs are treated differently than simply cross rating, it may turn out to be easier for you. I don't see anyone there giving a shit about your warfare pin. Eye surgery might be a different story.


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## AWP (Mar 2, 2015)

Chet-Manley said:


> By get into NSW I meant cutting through the red tape that my unit and big navy enjoy putting up...


 


SkrewzLoose said:


> Have you contacted a local motivator to determine if any of that would prevent you from putting in an SO contract?


 
THIS. If you're wondering how to find one I'd suggest using Google or Bing on your Internet machine.


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## Ethan_S (Mar 13, 2015)

Option #2 isn't really even an option for me, but if I were to have one it would be Airborne Artillery.
Again, I realize I'm young and have a ways to go, but my plan so far is 18X after an associates degree in LE, then (hopefully) 18E. But if shit hits the fan, Airborne Artillerymen.

Again, I would rather drown than quit under ANY circumstances.


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## Ethan_S (Mar 13, 2015)

Disregard last sentence please, I realize now it's unneeded. My apologies.


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## AfroNinja267 (Apr 4, 2015)

Well, unlike a lot of people posting here, I'm more worried about getting into the Army as an 11b than getting into anything SOF related. Once that goal is accomplished, I will train and prepare and gain experience until I see myself more than ready to move on. If I decide to take the plunge and fail to get into SF/Rangers, then I'll go back to the conventional Army and do my job with pride.


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## Viper1 (Apr 5, 2015)

AfroNinja267 said:


> Well, unlike a lot of people posting here, I'm more worried about getting into the Army as an 11b than getting into anything SOF related. Once that goal is accomplished, I will train and prepare and gain experience until I see myself more than ready to move on. If I decide to take the plunge and fail to get into SF/Rangers, then I'll go back to the conventional Army and do my job with pride.



Good place to start.  I enjoyed the Infantry a lot.  I enjoy my job now much more.  Good luck.


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## Polar Bear (Apr 6, 2015)

AfroNinja267 said:


> Well, unlike a lot of people posting here, I'm more worried about getting into the Army as an 11b than getting into anything SOF related. Once that goal is accomplished, I will train and prepare and gain experience until I see myself more than ready to move on. If I decide to take the plunge and fail to get into SF/Rangers, then I'll go back to the conventional Army and do my job with pride.


I would sign a Ranger contract. If you washout or get hurt, you at least have a sense of what it takes to get there.


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## compforce (Apr 10, 2015)

Let me tell you about backup plans…  This is going to be a long one


I’ve always wanted to be military and Special Operations.  When I was 6 years old we had to do a kindergarten assignment “what do you want?”  I drew a stick Army man with the caption “I want to have a machine gun”.

At 17, I was a Junior in high school at my 13th school in 12 years.  When my mother told me that we were moving again, I simply said “no, I’m not”.  I went down and talked to the Army recruiter and three days later I was at MEPS.  I had the ASVAB score for any MOS.  The recruiter at MEPS said to me that because I didn’t have a degree, I could only enlist in the Infantry.  I looked at him and said “Perfect, I want to be Infantry and go Airborne, Ranger then SF”.  I left MEPS with a shiny new DEP contract for the Infantry.

I worked hard as an Infantryman.  I embraced the suck.  I finished my last few high school classes and got my diploma.  I went from E1 to E4(p) in 15 months.  I was stationed in Korea when the SF Recruiting team came to post.  By then I had learned that Ranger was not a requirement for SF so I went down to the theatre where the briefing was held.  I did the paperwork, did the swim test and PT test.  I scored higher on that PT test than I had ever done before.  I was two pushups short of maxing the test for the first time in my career.  When I was on the two mile run, I sprinted the whole thing for a time of 11:34.  It was 45 seconds better than my fastest normal test.  I wanted it.  With every bone in my body I wanted to be one of those guys that was the best at what they did.

When I got to Ft Campbell the company was going to JRTC two days after I got there.  When I met the 1SG, he asked me if I could be ready and told me that I didn’t have to go if I needed time to settle in.  I went.  When we were standing down in the old barracks, the 1SG said he had a slot for PLDC that was one month away and asked if I could be ready.  I went and was on the Commandant’s list.  The night of graduation I went back to the barracks and was going to go out with some of the guys.  I was driving a friend’s car and we were screwing around, fighting in the front seat.  I got pulled over for swerving and something about the officer’s attitude pissed me off.  I made a few smart assed comments to him and he charged me with DUI.  As an aside, that officer was later fired for harassing the military folks.  I chose to fight it in court as I had only had one beer before leaving and was not even close to drunk.  The case was eventually thrown out of court.

Fast forward to June of 1990.  My orders for SFAS came in.  I went to the 1SG (the new one) and showed him the orders.  He told me that I had a flag to favorable actions and a bar to reenlistment because of the DUI charge.  I told him that it had been thrown out of court and asked why I still had a flag and bar.  It turns out that the paperwork on those wasn’t done until the day after I notified him I had received the orders.  It was a convenient excuse to keep a soldier in the company.  I still did my job to my best ability.  I called the contact number from the orders and the schoolhouse told me there was nothing I could do but wait it out for my next assignment or ask for an administrative transfer then impress the new unit so they’d remove the flag.

I went to Desert Storm and Desert Shield with the flag still hanging over me.  In January 1991 the promotion points finally dropped.  They had been at 998 for so long that I actually had more time as an E4(p) than I had as all the other ranks leading up to it.  It had been almost two years since I passed the board.  When I didn’t get promoted, I started going up the Chain of Command.  At every level the answer was the same.  It’s the Company’s prerogative.  Then it was time to put away the administrative stuff and move to the Iraq border…

When we got back, I tried to get the flag removed again, but the Company refused.  I had been the only E4 Squad Leader for almost two years.  Every time a bad detail came down the other squad leaders were pushing it on my guys because I was the lowest ranking squad leader with the lowest average rank in the squad.  I was pushing back telling them it wasn’t fair to the guys that they got every shitty detail because they were unlucky enough to land in my squad.  Again, I was preaching to deaf ears.  I had some other personal crap happen along the way too.  My motivation was crushed.  When the Army decided to offer early outs to E4 and above after DS, I took it.

In 1999 I realized that I missed it.  I tried to get back in.  The problem was that I was taking Xanax for stress.  That was a permanent disqualifier.  I applied for a waiver and it went to the Army Surgeon General, who denied the waiver.  For four years I applied for a waiver and each year it was denied.  Finally, in 2005 I decided that I was going to try one more time and if they denied it again, I was going to stop.  I figured I would have a better chance of getting in if I went National Guard.  By that time, I had found out that you didn’t have to enlist in the state you lived in.  So I went down to the recruiter at 20th Group and talked with him.  I had to go through a pretty laborious process, I needed two waivers, a medical one for the Xanax and one for my RE code (I was RE-3 because of the way I got out).  But I got it all done and had an interview with the commander of 20th.  He liked me, liked my IT experience and gave me the opportunity.  I told him that I was going to train up to go to selection.  And I did. I started training, hard.  I got my run times down.  But age had caught up to me.  I was constantly injuring and reinjuring myself.  As my time in Group continued, I got broken more and more.  I had to come to terms with the fact that I was never going to be able to go to selection.  So I focused on what I could do.  I contributed everything that I could, while around me were all the guys that had gotten to a place that I had wanted to be my entire life.

This has been a long post, but the point I am making is that you can push, train, do all the right things and circumstances can still conspire to take away the dream.  Just like an NFL rookie can get in the show and blow out his knee in the first game, your dream of being in SOF can be taken.  But you don’t quit, never give up and you can still contribute in a meaningful way.  You never know where life may take you.  I’ll never wear the beret that I wanted for my whole life, but I got to serve with some of the finest men on the planet.  For 7 years I was treated as one of their own.

I truly hope you make it and will help any of you to reach your goals.  This post isn’t to take away your motivation, it’s to help you understand why that backup plan is necessary.  You can be a PT stud.  You can check all of the boxes.  You just don’t know where life will take you.

Have a plan.


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## amlove21 (Apr 12, 2015)

compforce said:


> I truly hope you make it and will help any of you to reach your goals.  This post isn’t to take away your motivation, it’s to help you understand why that backup plan is necessary.  You can be a PT stud.  You can check all of the boxes.  You just don’t know where life will take you.
> 
> Have a plan.



Every single wannabe on this site should read this post. Again, and again, and again. 

@compforce , you absolutely killed it. Thank you for your time and effort.


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## x SF med (Apr 13, 2015)

amlove21 said:


> Every single wannabe on this site should read this post. Again, and again, and again.
> 
> @compforce , you absolutely killed it. Thank you for your time and effort.



Exactly what I told him when he asked me to proof it, and asked, "Is it too long?  Do you think anybody will read it since I was a Support Guy?" 

Truth is truth,  and a stellar Support Guy is an asset that cannot be bought, traded or sold.


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## Salt USMC (Apr 13, 2015)

compforce said:


> Let me tell you about backup plans…


@compforce that was incredible.  A lesser man would've given up long ago.  That was incredibly inspiring to read.


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## Ethan_S (Apr 13, 2015)

compforce said:


> Let me tell you about backup plans…  This is going to be a long one
> 
> 
> I’ve always wanted to be military and Special Operations.  When I was 6 years old we had to do a kindergarten assignment “what do you want?”  I drew a stick Army man with the caption “I want to have a machine gun”.
> ...



Damn near best advice I've heard in a long time. Thank you for your advice and service, sir.


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## brokenjar03 (May 24, 2015)

Here to bring this party back to life. 

First, thank you @compforce for the inspirational read. I saved your words onto a word document in my computer to re-read at anytime. 

Secondly, I'd like to address a personal issue, or flaw, in my backup plan and if anyone who's been there, done that, and has the t-shirt could offer their advice I'm all ears. 

My backup plan is to become a journalist.

 I'm at the end of my first contract as a grunt. Following this contract I'm going to college because, well, it's just a personal accomplishment I need to do before I advance anymore in any career. After college I can foresee myself wanting to return to the military for a chance at special operations, perhaps as an officer even - branch TBD. But, as I'm in school I'll pursue my backup plan as a journalist. This plan requires me to make a lot of contacts, build a lot of networks, and live a pretty public life. Which leaves me to ask, how much does having a large social media footprint influence the level of security-clearance I'd receive? What's more damaging, a large footprint or a negative - think inflated ego, party addict - footprint?


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## x SF med (May 26, 2015)

brokenjar03 said:


> What's more damaging, a large footprint or a negative - think inflated ego, party addict - footprint?



Yes.


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## amar nagra (Jun 28, 2015)

My back up plan: get assigned to an infantry unit, serve active duty for a few years and save up as much money as i can. When the time is right and my contract is over, start my own business, either a gym or a bar. (Or I can combine the two, get drunk and do some pullups)


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## xGenoSiide (Sep 28, 2015)

xGenoSiide said:


> Simple: Go back to my job and keep training and trying until I either make it or get tired of being told 'no.'



Taking this back a couple years for an update, but it's time I look at my tertiary option.  I was given a date to assess for CCT in Aug of 2013, but being in an STS had its drawbacks... namely, my CC and CEM thought it was too close to my car accident to assess and didn't want to see me injured so they pulled me from the TDY.  Upsetting because I was ready, but I understand they had my best interest in mind.  No big deal, I wasn't in my retraining window anyway, I was invited as the functional used to be my Ops Sup.  January of 2014, I enter my retraining window and the day before I'm schedule to take my PAST break my thumb. When I'm off my profile, I am both out of my retraining window and 1C2 has no quotas.  I PCS to bumfuck, ND in March of this year, apply for retraining the day I arrive and am found eligible, but my 422 needs updated, and the quotas for SSgt are filled before my 422 is updated.  Now that the new NCORP list is out, I cannot retrain into 1C2 because my AFSC has no 'out' objectives.  This would be no big deal except for the fact that I have to be E-5 with less than 10 years TAFMS, and I hit 10 years in January.

So now I either hope they start accepting exceptions to policy to allow me to retrain even though I'm in a balanced AFSC, or I start working on my commissioning package with the hope to commission as an ALO.


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## Ares (Oct 26, 2015)

Coming late to a good party.


Freefalling said:


> Listen Tadpole....your jingoistic motospeak sounds.....it sounds just awesome, killer. Here's the problem:
> 
> It is garbage, utter nonsense.
> 
> ...



Being, to my knowledge, one of "highly motivated", testosterone-filled super-hard chargers, who wants nothing more than that lifestyle..

Thank you. 
Probably the best advice/response I've seen so far, along with @compforce (saved his story aswell); I try not to and do my best not to get completely infatuated with moto. To me, failure is something one learns from. Get it wrong now, make it right later. In response to your Lego statement, I believe that even though it may come to bite you in the ass, is the purpose of them not to gradually make something great? You might get your ass hurt by that one block, but you can still put it back and continue building.

COA: Make it past boot > 03xx/K-9 (I believe this is MP) > A&S/ITC > MARSOC
Should I not make it past A&S/ITC, then I'll be doing my damndest to get into Recon. Fail that, go back to Infantry or MP and serve the Corps best I can. Just give it my all no matter what, because what's the point of doing something half-heartedly?


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## Devildoc (Nov 4, 2015)

I joined the Navy with the plan to be a SARC.  Physically I was OK, always room for improvement, but OK.  I had all my ducks lined up.  I was already civvy-SCUBA certified (NAUI & PADI), a civvy DMT with chamber experience, was a paramedic.  Could not fail.  Guess what?  Could not pass a dive physical.  I am "technically" color blind.  I couldn't even get out of the gate.  My Plan B? Be the best damn FMF corpsman I could be, and I was.  Loved every minute of it.

Sometimes the Fickle Finger of Fate screws you.  That's life.


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## Grunt (Nov 4, 2015)

Devildoc said:


> Sometimes the Fickle Finger of Fate screws you.  That's life.



The key to that equation is...drive on....

When one door closes...look for a window.

Never quit...never give up!


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## Rcjames1 (Nov 7, 2015)

I don't plan on giving up, ever. If life does throw a screwball, though, I hope to make use of my degree and work at a management consulting firm (which is similar to my plan _after _the military). Instead of stressing out over which branch/service to finally go into once I graduate, I will choose one and stick with it. I have read time and time again that it's a waste of time to sit there and try to figure out all of the details. 

Now I understand that; I have realized that the best course of action is to just do it. Choose a path and stick with it-- a strategy akin to the choosing of my university. Would my life have been different at another college? Yes. Does it matter? Not really. So, my backup plan is fairly general. I think everyone's should be. If one tries to make such a detailed secondary plan, then time is taken from the primary and, if the secondary doesn't start out quite right, more stress is invoked and time is wasted.


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## Lunch Pail (Dec 23, 2015)

First things first, I enlisted with an 11x option 40 contract and have hypothyroid controlled by medication.  The Army is the only service where I could get a SOF contract without needing a waiver.  On the macro level, it appears that as long as you meet the general enlistment standards regarding hypothyroid, then all the opportunities are available.  I walked in to the recruiter’s office with hard copies of relevant pages of AR 40-501 and DODI 6130.03 in my hand and everything went relatively smoothly from there.

Beyond the low statistical likelihood of success, I am preparing myself for the possibility that even if I make it to RASP healthy and everything goes perfectly, I may not be selected due to hypothyroid since the decision is now at a more micro level.  I have no reason to suspect this may or may not happen, and I do have a PULHES of 111111, but I am aware that shit happens.  Therefore, I have placed a specific emphasis on alternate plans.

Regardless of unit, I will be serving as an Infantryman and will be happy to have the privilege.  My main goals are to learn as much as possible, perform well, and to continuously improve physical fitness.  Beyond that, it seems that the Army has a plethora of other opportunities, if one seeks to do something different.  An option that is on my radar is the Warrant Officer Flight Training Program.  I will seek to learn more about this, but if I am able to put together a competitive package when the time is right, it would be an awesome opportunity.

If I decided to get out of the Army after my initial enlistment, I already have my degree which I completed with the original intention of going into law enforcement.  Much more research would have to happen before I would make a decision, but I would look to find work either in law enforcement or the fire/rescue service.  Additionally, with the educational benefits afforded to those who have served in the military, the opportunity will be there to complete a Master’s, earn a 2nd degree, or learn a trade.

Months ago I watched an interview of Pat McNamara done by Bravo Company USA.  In this interview, he states that he continuously reminds himself and others that, “…the probability of achieving the outcome you desire will increase once you let go of the need to have it.”  It is an interesting concept and one I have thought a lot about.  I still do not fully understand, but it is beginning to make more sense.


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## Jay2485 (Dec 30, 2015)

My C-WAY came back for in-rate re enlistment only. With that being said I can not submit a conversion package. I will continue to
do my job to the best of my ability then upon my EAOS switch to the ARMY and see what doors opens up. You can only fix what you can control. There's always light at the end of the tunnel.


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## macNcheese (Apr 13, 2016)

If you fail SFAS, as far as I can tell you go
 Infantry--->Iraq--->Afghanistan--->Divorce--->Rangers--->Iraq--->Afghanistan--->SFAS--->SF


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## DA SWO (Apr 13, 2016)

macNcheese said:


> If you fail SFAS, as far as I can tell you go
> Infantry--->Iraq--->Afghanistan--->Divorce--->Rangers--->Iraq--->Afghanistan--->SFAS--->SF


Personal experience?


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## macNcheese (Apr 13, 2016)

no it was what I was told to prepare for going into 18x. Seemed a bit bleak.


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## TLDR20 (Apr 14, 2016)

macNcheese said:


> no it was what I was told to prepare for going into 18x. Seemed a bit bleak.



Lol. Someone was a hater. You likely won't get into Ranger Regiment as a failed 18X, if you are a good soldier you may go to Ranger School. The other stuff is prolly spot on. When I was a new 18X just about everyone who failed was in Iraq within a few months. The divorce thing is prolly accurate in or out of the Q course.


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## DasBoot (Apr 15, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Lol. Someone was a hater. You likely won't get into Ranger Regiment as a failed 18X, if you are a good soldier you may go to Ranger School. The other stuff is prolly spot on. When I was a new 18X just about everyone who failed was in Iraq within a few months. The divorce thing is prolly accurate in or out of the Q course.


They were sending anyone who didn't quit student company/selection to RASP if they wanted. They just ended that but I came to Batt with a couple buddies who made it to day 19 and one who was in SUT before being dropped. It wasn't that uncommon until recently.


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## TLDR20 (Apr 15, 2016)

DasBoot said:


> They were sending anyone who didn't quit student company/selection to RASP if they wanted. They just ended that but I came to Batt with a couple buddies who made it to day 19 and one who was in SUT before being dropped. It wasn't that uncommon until recently.


Ok. While I was there the only guys who got to go to Regiment were guys who failed out of The Q after being through SOCM. I think that is good though as there are a lot of good dudes who don't make it.


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## Gingerfish (May 1, 2016)

Hey for the AF guys , if you hold an EMT basic cert. Before indoc and they you drop out . Is it possible to sill be put in a health career field?


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## Ghstefaniak (May 8, 2016)

If I don't make it STO, then I'll probably go AFOSI, I always try to keep a list of plans. That doesn't mean that I'll quit easier at the fact I know there's a backup plan, but just me as a person I always have a plan for each letter of the alphabet. I'm currently in the Candidate process at the Air Force Academy and currently cutting weight. Cant wait for what the future holds.



Ghstefaniak said:


> If I don't make it STO, then I'll probably go AFOSI, I always try to keep a list of plans. That doesn't mean that I'll quit easier at the fact I know there's a backup plan, but just me as a person I always have a plan for each letter of the alphabet. I'm currently in the Candidate process at the Air Force Academy and currently cutting weight. Cant wait for what the future holds.


Really just want to serve to the best of my abilities and give back to people who have given so much to me. As a highly motivated individual who is always down for the biggest challenge to beat, that's why I'm going Special Operations.


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## amlove21 (May 16, 2016)

Gingerfish said:


> Hey for the AF guys , if you hold an EMT basic cert. Before indoc and they you drop out . Is it possible to sill be put in a health career field?


Maybe, yes, but needs of the AF cancel out all other quals. Also, not the thread for this question. Look at the title- now look back here- now look at me- your question doesn't have anything to do with the thread.


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## Gingerfish (May 16, 2016)

I see what you mean and not to argue but to point out how it works with this thread is becoming an emt could be a back up plan for me in the case they don't accept me because of prior service. But moving on out of this thread thanks for the answer


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## amlove21 (May 17, 2016)

Ok- noted. I am going to file this under 'you don't know what you don't know'. I'll even be willing to ignore the fact that you tried to tell me (the guy that started the thread) what the intent of the thread is.

If you fail out of Indoctrination and you enter the reclass process- it doesn't matter if you hold an EMT cert at all. Just the same as if you were an accomplished mechanic before your AF career but came in hoping to be anything other than a mechanic and failed out of the pipeline- if we don't need mechanics, we don't make mechanics. If the medical jobs (by the way, the EMT service in the AF is nothing like civilian world. The number of jobs where a Basic cert is used is very, very small). The best you could hope for your EMT cert is working a desk at family practice, or being a technician at another shop in the hospital. If those jobs don't need people, you won't go there. Also, if Security Forces or Maintenance need more people than the med group do? Your basic EMT cert means nothing. It's not logical, it seems like it's not the best practice, I get it. However, that's what it is.

If you want a health career field in the AF, well, then you should talk to a recruiter about a job where that applies. However, if you decide that you want to be a PJ, try, and fail- well, they're going to align you to the career field that needs you at that time, regardless of what civilian cert you may or may not possess at that time. You could, in this scenario, be a Security Forces Airman with an  Basic EMT cert. Or an airplane mechanic with an EMT cert.

There is a distinct possibility that no, you will not be put into a 'health' career field where your cert means anything.

I'll level a question at you- let's say you know the entire scenario. You look forward, and you know 100% that you fail out of Indoc, and that you _wouldn't_ be aligned to a 'health' service after reclass.

Would you still be willing to enlist in the AF knowing these things? What is your true motivation- to be given the job of your choice, and if you if you fail out (which BY THE WAY YOU WILL STATISTICALLY FAIL OUT) and if that doesn't work we should try to get you your second choice? Why?

Let me share the true intent of this thread- I want to see who really wants to serve, in any capacity. I want willing volunteers- and it's ok if those volunteers fail to meet our special operations standard, as long as they want to serve the US admirably, because that shot at indoctrination is a PRIVILEGE and not a RIGHT. It is more important to me to get people in the military that want to serve even if it means not getting what they want when they want it.

You try and fail? _Forgive me for saying, but I don't owe you shit. _

I want transparency, I want you to understand that the first stepping stone for your process is "I want to be in the military, specifically the Air Force, because I want to serve my country, no matter what that looks like."

To finish this up- No, getting an EMT cert will hold no bearing on your backup plan if you fail the pipeline.


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## Gingerfish (May 17, 2016)

Rgr that wasn't trying to be offensive nor insult your intelligence. Please excuse my ignorance , and thank you for your guidance .


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## amlove21 (May 19, 2016)

Gingerfish said:


> Rgr that wasn't trying to be offensive nor insult your intelligence. Please excuse my ignorance , and thank you for your guidance .


No worries. Press on.


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## JordanL (Sep 16, 2016)

It's been awhile since anyone has posted in this thread but, as a new member, scrolling through the forum for topics I found this one to resonate with me. I haven't read the entire thing but what I have read has been very relevant to me. 

When I say relevant to me I mean this: I originally joined the Air Force to be a Pararescueman back in 2012 and looking back, I had no backup plan. Like so many before me, I thought to myself "There's no way I'll quit" and I foolishly wasn't planning for possibly not making the cut physically. As it turns out I failed the 500m freestyle event at the end of Dev Course (not even true indoc yet) and was fortunate enough to be given a setback when I asked. I went through the newly appointed Battle Program and on my second team I didn't measure up again on the same event with the same time (10:15, which is pretty slow when you look at high school swimmers competitive times) I, along with 6 others, asked for ANOTHER setback but we were not given one this time and understandably so. We couldn't make it through a 2 week prep course. The cadre, whom I still remember to this day, gave us all a recommendation to come back and gave us a pep talk about dedication and persistence. I was thankful for the recommendation but crushed. 

I spent and am still spending time contemplating my failure and at this point in my life, I'm thankful for the failure. I had never failed anything I genuinely cared about (at the time of joining, there wasn't much I cared about at all) failing my dream was devastating for me. It took me a long time to realize that this failure was an important lesson I needed to learn. I've spent time serving in a capacity that doesn't quite line up with my dream but I'm still thankful I can serve at all and that mentality took me awhile to learn as well. 

So as far as my backup plan goes, to my understanding I'll most likely get sent back to my current AFSC (medical stuff) if I don't make the cut again and that's ok with me. Even if not I'm prepared to cook or check ID's or whatever is asked of me. I've learned to try and be the best I can in whatever capacity I can even if it isn't what I want. Fortunately, the Air Force will let me try again... as many times as I want (...I think) and I will keep on trying until hopefully one day I can realize the dream. 

To sum up, I think living the backup plan that I had foolishly not planned for gave me an appreciation for serving I wouldn't have had had I made it my first try. Although, it would have been so much easier if I had just planned for it the first time. Lesson learned!


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 16, 2016)

JordanL said:


> It's been awhile since anyone has posted in this thread but, as a new member, scrolling through the forum for topics I found this one to resonate with me. I haven't read the entire thing but what I have read has been very relevant to me.
> 
> When I say relevant to me I mean this: I originally joined the Air Force to be a Pararescueman back in 2012 and looking back, I had no backup plan. Like so many before me, I thought to myself "There's no way I'll quit" and I foolishly wasn't planning for possibly not making the cut physically. As it turns out I failed the 500m freestyle event at the end of Dev Course (not even true indoc yet) and was fortunate enough to be given a setback when I asked. I went through the newly appointed Battle Program and on my second team I didn't measure up again on the same event with the same time (10:15, which is pretty slow when you look at high school swimmers competitive times) I, along with 6 others, asked for ANOTHER setback but we were not given one this time and understandably so. We couldn't make it through a 2 week prep course. The cadre, whom I still remember to this day, gave us all a recommendation to come back and gave us a pep talk about dedication and persistence. I was thankful for the recommendation but crushed.
> 
> ...



I like that you are willing to do whatever it is the USAF asks of you. You in a site that has quite a bit of PJ information, from first hand knowledge. What ever it is the USAF asks of you right now, be the best there can be at that job. You will have time to prep for your next eval, and we do like to see our members reach their SOF goal.

I wish you the best in your USAF career. Read everything that you can, and follow instructions to the letter.


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## JordanL (Sep 16, 2016)

Thank you sir, I found the Pararescue mentor group and a good number of other topics with great information. Again, thank you for having me here at SS.


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## WasNeverHere (Dec 12, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> I am even more interested in the "Considering studies on youth population and military recruitment claim “evidence suggests that cardiorespiratory endurance in young men has declined by approximately 10 percent since 1966” statement.



Coming from a pre-PC, pre-gaming, pre-internet generation, I would've guessed the decline was much steeper. When I was a kid, we ran, jumped, played in the dirt, and rode bikes for several miles per day. There may have been 1 fat kid in any given class room. Today it seems half the kids are fat (or what would've been considered fat 40 years ago). 

To me, the Army was running in boots, playing in the dirt, and carrying heavy stuff around, sometimes all at the same time. Hardest thing I encountered in the Army was the monotony and tedium of my permanent duty station. 

There does seem to be a a split among the youth, though, with part of them dwelling in their parents' basement, playing video games, and glutting on Cheetos, while their arteries calcify; there is a portion, though, that is extreme athlete fit, with PhD level knowledge of physiology and nutrition. I suspect most of your current operator community comes from the latter group.


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## amlove21 (Dec 12, 2016)

82DABN43E1P said:


> Coming from a pre-PC, pre-gaming, pre-internet generation, I would've guessed the decline was much steeper. When I was a kid, we ran, jumped, played in the dirt, and rode bikes for several miles per day. There may have been 1 fat kid in any given class room. Today it seems half the kids are fat (or what would've been considered fat 40 years ago).
> 
> To me, the Army was running in boots, playing in the dirt, and carrying heavy stuff around, sometimes all at the same time. Hardest thing I encountered in the Army was the monotony and tedium of my permanent duty station.
> 
> There does seem to be a a split among the youth, though, with part of them dwelling in their parents' basement, playing video games, and glutting on Cheetos, while their arteries calcify; there is a portion, though, that is extreme athlete fit, with PhD level knowledge of physiology and nutrition. I suspect most of your current operator community comes from the latter group.


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## Matt9339 (Feb 7, 2017)

This is a very informative post, coming from my own perspective, I am a prior service vet, older now than most I will be attempting this path with. What I know I do offer is 12 years of experience and multiple combat deployments. I know I am mentally tough, I've been through some tough training and pushed past limits, to caviat I also know that anything can happen, and have many friends where injuries killed their hopes and dreams. I plan to physically prepare the best I can, keep my mind right, and if it isn't in the cards because of whatever freak incident happens I'll regroup and address what my options are at the time. What I have learned in life is control what is in your power and deal with the uncontrollable as it comes.


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## Gunz (Feb 7, 2017)

Matt9339 said:


> This is a very informative post, coming from my own perspective, I am a prior service vet, older now than most I will be attempting this path with. What I know I do offer is 12 years of experience and multiple combat deployments. I know I am mentally tough, I've been through some tough training and pushed past limits, to caviat I also know that anything can happen, and have many friends where injuries killed their hopes and dreams. I plan to physically prepare the best I can, keep my mind right, and if it isn't in the cards because of whatever freak incident happens I'll regroup and address what my options are at the time. What I have learned in life is control what is in your power and deal with the uncontrollable as it comes.



That's all you can do. There's always that element of luck involved. Like Stan Musial said: "You're one injury away from the end of your career." It applies to athletes and warriors.


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## suaveflooder (Feb 10, 2017)

I'm new here, but I don't have one.  I have always been told that if I am serious about special operations, not to have a backup.  This is coming from a guy who got injured in his third day in hell week at BUDs when he had a paddle hit him between the legs.  He woke up on suicide watch and with a catheter.  He told me he wouldn't do a thing different.  He aged out and could not get a waiver after this incident.


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## suaveflooder (Feb 10, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> The second part of your post was unneeded, yea? Your backup plan is to just be an infantry soldier, and thats enough. I have zero issue with that.
> 
> And again, let's stop with the "I'd rather die that quit" analogy. No, you wouldn't choose death over stopping a training iteration, and it takes away from those that actually did die doing their job. Let's keep the drama to a minimum and focus on the topic- what is the backup plan if you don't make it through your selection process or pipeline?



This is not completely accurate, and if you are still active, I will hopefully be meeting you in the next two years.  I'm in the same boat.  I'll "drown" and trust in the cadre to pull me out, then do it again.  The idea is that is not to quit.  If I'm not willing to risk my life "trying", why would I do it in the real situation?  Different, and I understand, but I get where the "I'll die or make it" comes from. People die in training.  It's the dangers of the job and dangers of the training.  I personally have nothing to lose, and I'm willing to do I need to do to get through.


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## TLDR20 (Feb 10, 2017)

suaveflooder said:


> This is not completely accurate, and if you are still active, I will hopefully be meeting you in the next two years.  I'm in the same boat.  I'll "drown" and trust in the cadre to pull me out, then do it again.  The idea is that is not to quit.  If I'm not willing to risk my life "trying", why would I do it in the real situation?  Different, and I understand, but I get where the "I'll die or make it" comes from. People die in training.  It's the dangers of the job and dangers of the training.  I personally have nothing to lose, and I'm willing to do I need to do to get through.



First off, @amlove is a cadre at the schoolhouse. I think he may realize that 90% of the guys think they would rather die than quit. But then that same 90% quits... you are no different than them. 

Secondly I don't think I want some idiot on my team who doesn't know his own limitations and puts himself in a position to die rather than say, " this may not be the right time." To me that shows a lack of maturity and judgement.


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## Teufel (Feb 10, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> 90% of the guys think they would rather die than quit. But then that same 90% quits... you are no different than them



No one is a quitter...until they are!


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## amlove21 (Feb 10, 2017)

suaveflooder said:


> This is not completely accurate, and if you are still active, I will hopefully be meeting you in the next two years.  I'm in the same boat.  I'll "drown" and trust in the cadre to pull me out, then do it again.  The idea is that is not to quit.  If I'm not willing to risk my life "trying", why would I do it in the real situation?  Different, and I understand, but I get where the "I'll die or make it" comes from. People die in training.  It's the dangers of the job and dangers of the training.  I personally have nothing to lose, and I'm willing to do I need to do to get through.


You had me at 'this isn't completely accurate.' 

I'm basing my opinion off of a couple thousand points of student data, a couple hundred psychological evaluations and exit interviews I've been a part of and an adult life dedicated to the job. Oh, and I have actually done it too, so there's that. 

Whatever attitude you need to get you through, go for it. If you really wil die in training doing underwaters- which is a dumb thing to say, if your end goal is to be a PJ but whatever- and that somehow motivates you to study in paramedic later in the pipeline, ok. 'I'd rather die than not study cardiology!!!' 

You're the type of dude in my jiu jitsu that gets hurt because he insists the other guy 'didn't really have the choke' and you make us put you to sleep cause you won't tap. 

There's 'never quit' then there's 'you're not right for this and you need to stop endangering yourself with your bravado.'

You're sounding a lot like the latter. So, 35 year old dude with nothing to lose, when you quite possibly fail, what's your backup plan? Because my friends at Indoc won't let you keep trying to die, they'll remove you from training and your actions will do the quitting your warrior brain 'just won't let you' do.


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## Totentanz (Feb 10, 2017)

Just going to throw this out there - "not quitting" is only a component of passing a selection course.

Of my CAAS class, 65 went out to Camp Mackall.  At the end, 62 remained (and of the 3 who departed, only 1 actually voluntarily withdrew/quit).  How many got selected?  I don't know the exact number, but it was somewhere around 25.  Let that sink for a minute... of the 62 folks who NEVER PUNCHED THE QUIT BUTTON, about 60% of them were told "thanks for coming out, good luck in your previous job".  Whether or not you pass is not always up to you.

I won't speak for the other programs, but I'd be really surpised if their decisions don't incorporate - at some point - the question "Okay, [candidate] is smart enough, fast enough, and strong enough... now, do we want [candidate] on our team?"


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 10, 2017)

Totentanz said:


> Just going to throw this out there - "not quitting" is only a component of passing a selection course.
> 
> Of my CAAS class, 65 went out to Camp Mackall.  At the end, 62 remained (and of the 3 who departed, only 1 actually voluntarily withdrew/quit).  How many got selected?  I don't know the exact number, but it was somewhere around 25.  Let that sink for a minute... of the 62 folks who NEVER PUNCHED THE QUIT BUTTON, about 60% of them were told "thanks for coming out, good luck in your previous job".  Whether or not you pass is not always up to you.
> 
> I won't speak for the other programs, but I'd be really surpised if their decisions don't incorporate - at some point - the question "Okay, [candidate] is smart enough, fast enough, and strong enough... now, do we want [candidate] on our team?"



That was a part of the whole 'selection' process I was not aware of until I recently watched one of those Discovery Channel documentaries on A&S for Green Beret training.  At the end the remaining candidates are segregated into two rooms; you could see everyone eyeing each other up, wondering if it was a good or bad sign that they were in the group with "that guy".

Room A is told "congrats" you are moving forward, room "B" is told, "Thanks for playing".   The absolute devastation on the faces of some of the guys Discovery followed but who were not selected, was tough to watch.   I am consistently surprised at the number of folks who come here asking for advice about running, rucking, lifting, orienteering, etc, yet rarely ask what traits to focus on so as to be someone that the Cadre who are doing the selecting, would want on their team.

ETA - in no way am I trying to imply I ever attended any type of A&S, just my observation after many years on this forum.


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## amlove21 (Feb 10, 2017)

@Totentanz @Ooh-Rah , that 100% happens w us too. Not quitting isn't enough. 

You actually have to be selected.


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## suaveflooder (Feb 10, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> You had me at 'this isn't completely accurate.'
> 
> I'm basing my opinion off of a couple thousand points of student data, a couple hundred psychological evaluations and exit interviews I've been a part of and an adult life dedicated to the job. Oh, and I have actually done it too, so there's that.
> 
> ...



One thing I appreciate about you is that you are blunt.  I've gone over quite a few of your posts since you seem to have a ton of experience, and once again, I hope I see you in a year or so at some point, and then in two after I complete the pipeline.  So, once again, I appreciate your response and there are some fantastic points, most of which I agree with.

My point was simply this:  If you have an out, when things get shitty, your tired, and everything hurts, you start listening to that little voice in your head saying, "It's okay! You can quit! You have a backup......".  If you don't have that backup, your focus is on finishing.  It doesn't mean you won't fail out.  My buddy in BUD/s never finished and didn't have a backup and ended up doing a job he HATED, but he said he would do it again the same way.

I have a VERY good chance at failing out.  If the 91% failure rate isn't enough, my age isn't helping.  Injury is very real for me and I'll be competing against guys that I probably could have fathered (scary thought).  I have a water polo background, so that is in my favor for water confidence (harassment), and I've gotten a lot of experience with feeling out my body for injury just through trial and error.

Only time will tell at this point.  I'm not even physically capable of getting in currently so it's neither here nor there at the moment.  While I'm usually a planner, I'm going in to this a little differently.  If I fail out, I'll figure it out then, but this is a huge commitment that deserves 100% of my attention without the backup plan getting in the way.


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## Ball N' Chain (Feb 10, 2017)

It's funny, because coming up in combat sports, quitting was always an option. In wrestling, you could always let yourself get thrown or turned while making it look like you are trying, and get pinned. In jiu jitsu, you could always go for a sloppy take down and get yourself tapped. In muay thai, leaving your hands down and getting rocked one time was easy and surprisingly painless, and generally a coach or ref would step in. Quitting is so easy that it is scary.
I remember my sophomore year in high school I was wrestling in the "Blood Round," the round that dictated if you went to states or not. I was wrestling at 145, but I walked around at 165 regularly, even during the week before tournaments. I was beat up from a tough season, with a jacked up knee and shoulder, and other lingering ailments. I was up in the match with 20 seconds to go by a considerable amount, 4 points to be exact, and we were resetting to referees position with me on top. But something happened, and in a split second, I decided to give up. The long wrestling season, the pain in my body, as well as knowing I would have to cut weight all week again, and lastly knowing I would have to wrestle the returning state champ in the first round of states all succumbed me and I went for an over the back cradle instead of just cutting grass, or basically stalling, and I got flipped to my back for a 2 point reversal and 3 back points. I lost obviously, and at first I was happy. Over the next week, when I had to show up to practice anyway to help the kids going to state, I started to become upset. Upset turned to devastation and self embarrassment when I saw a kid I ran through multiple times placed fourth. 
Bottom line, quitting was easy for me. Quitting is easy, and seemingly blissful, because you think about the other side of things. The easy life.  To sum it up, I get that quitting is an option, as is failure, and injury.

*TOO LONG VERSION: I WRESTLED, I QUIT ONCE, IT SUCKED, I UNDERSTAND QUITTING AND FAILURE IS AN OPTION.*

As of now I am in the beginning phases of training for the PAST test. Being honest with myself, I know that I can not pass it. I am not much of a fish in the water and can't hold my breath long. Cals wise, I can knock out push ups, pull ups, and sit ups, and I can run a mile and a half at a 6 minute pace with relative ease. But swimming is my downfall. Knowing this, I am still enlisting in the Air Force, and pushing myself daily to become better. I am confident I will be able to pass the PAST with a couple more weeks of water work, but I know that is nothing compared to Indoc. I have never rucked, never ran more than 3 miles, and the most I have swam is 550 yards with fins. I am on day 3 of PT specific for USAF PJ. I understand it will be grueling and tough, and I also get that whether I quit or not doesn't matter, because if I can't perform they will cut me anyway. I get that. What I also get is that if I don't make it through, that the direction the next four years of my life take are up to the USAF. I am comfortable knowing that no matter what, I did my absolute best in giving my services I feel I owe to my country. While preferably it will be with Pararescue, wherever I end up is all part of the plan and I look forward to what lies ahead. 
Backup plan equals wherever I am needed.


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## amlove21 (Feb 10, 2017)

suaveflooder said:


> Only time will tell at this point.  I'm not even physically capable of getting in currently so it's neither here nor there at the moment.  While I'm usually a planner, I'm going in to this a little differently. * If I fail out, I'll figure it out then, but this is a huge commitment that deserves 100% of my attention without the backup plan getting in the way*.


Alright, guy. I am trying to be nice about this, but I am running out of patience at this point. I want to highlight one thing.


Your bolded statement highlights exactly why I am beginning to be frustrated with you.

"100% commitment to an endeavor" means logically looking at all outcomes and planning appropriately. COA development, war gaming, analysis and a mature acceptance of appropriate contingency planning are all signs of "100% commitment to an endeavor".

"I'll figure it out when I get there" after multiple attempts by multiple people to guide you in the right direction displays immaturity, inability to be coached/trained, and overconfidence. Those traits are counterproductive to a special operations candidate at your level. That's the nice way of saying it.


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## suaveflooder (Feb 10, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> Alright, guy. I am trying to be nice about this, but I am running out of patience at this point. I want to highlight one thing.
> 
> 
> Your bolded statement highlights exactly why I am beginning to be frustrated with you.
> ...



Okay.  Fair enough


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## Grunt (Feb 10, 2017)

Failure is a result....

Quitting is a choice....

Pretty simple!


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## Totentanz (Feb 10, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> "I'll figure it out when I get there" after multiple attempts by multiple people to guide you in the right direction displays immaturity, inability to be coached/trained, and overconfidence. Those traits are counterproductive to a special operations candidate at your level. That's the nice way of saying it.



_*"We don't rise to the occasion, we fall to the level of our training" - *_ as seen over the entrance to 1-87 Infantry (no idea where it originally came from)


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## suaveflooder (Feb 10, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> Alright, guy. I am trying to be nice about this, but I am running out of patience at this point. I want to highlight one thing.
> 
> 
> Your bolded statement highlights exactly why I am beginning to be frustrated with you.
> ...



Just because I'm curious.....what is your blunt way of saying it?  I know you have one, and I'm interested.  If you think I will never make it in, those are good things for me to hear.

If I don't make it the first time, I'm going to want to come back.  I'm not just going to drop out of the military because I don't make it in.


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## Centermass (Feb 10, 2017)

suaveflooder said:


> *Just because I'm curious.....what is your blunt way of saying it?  I know you have one, and I'm interested.*  If you think I will never make it in, those are good things for me to hear.
> 
> If I don't make it the first time, I'm going to want to come back.  I'm not just going to drop out of the military because I don't make it in.


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## suaveflooder (Feb 10, 2017)

Centermass said:


>


HAHA!!!  I'm not much for being nice in all honesty as it doesn't do anyone any good, and he tells it like it is.  I'll print it out and put it above my bed and read it every morning.  I push harder when I'm discouraged, so it's good motivation for me.


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## suaveflooder (Feb 10, 2017)

Because we all know this is going to be pretty rough!! :dead:


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## Red Flag 1 (Feb 10, 2017)

Agoge said:


> Failure is a result....
> 
> Quitting is a choice....
> 
> Pretty simple!



This^^^^^^^.


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## Teufel (Feb 10, 2017)

suaveflooder said:


> Because we all know this is going to be pretty rough!! :dead:


Isn't that the Booty Warriors' motto?


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## suaveflooder (Feb 10, 2017)

Teufel said:


> Isn't that the Booty Warriors' motto?


Hahahahahahaha!!!!!


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## amlove21 (Feb 10, 2017)

suaveflooder said:


> Just because I'm curious.....what is your blunt way of saying it?  I know you have one, and I'm interested.  If you think I will never make it in, those are good things for me to hear.
> 
> If I don't make it the first time, I'm going to want to come back.  I'm not just going to drop out of the military because I don't make it in.


That's not what this thread is about and I'd like to keep it a place where older dudes can help our younger dudes out. 

You're older than most, and you're behind as far as physical preparation. It's already an uphill battle for 19 year olds in the shape of their life. 

My advice would be contact a Spec Ops Recruiting Liaison through an AF recruiter and get enrolled in the Scout, recruit, develop curriculum, and seek out advice from a smart fitness and nutrition coach familiar with special operations selections. 

These are things you can and should be able to complete yourself, with little to no guidance.


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## Teufel (Feb 10, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> That's not what this thread is about and I'd like to keep it a place where older dudes can help our younger dudes out.
> 
> You're older than most, and you're behind as far as physical preparation. It's already an uphill battle for 19 year olds in the shape of their life.
> 
> ...


I would set your ears to receive mode here. @amlove21 is a senior member of the community you aspire to join. Most candidates don't get to speak to him or someone like him for more than a few moments never mind get this level of mentorship. Please act accordingly. It's easy for intent to get misconstrued online.


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## AWP (Feb 10, 2017)

We're starting to stray from the thread's intent. Let's get it back on track by closing out this PJ quit/fail exchange.


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## suaveflooder (Feb 14, 2017)

Teufel said:


> I would set your ears to receive mode here. @amlove21 is a senior member of the community you aspire to join. Most candidates don't get to speak to him or someone like him for more than a few moments never mind get this level of mentorship. Please act accordingly. It's easy for intent to get misconstrued online.



Absolutely!  I'm going to take the advice of keeping my mouth shut and reading as much as I can.  Lot of information on this forum and I'm thankful for the opportunity to learn from those who have actually "walked the walk."


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## Blitz (Apr 29, 2017)

It's been awhile since this thread was used, but if anyone still checks it my backup plan if I fail is just to do whatever job I'm stuck with until I can try again, and then try again. I don't plan to give up on my dreams though, but if I fail for whatever reason I'll just suck it up.


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## Bakersa21 (May 3, 2017)

@Blitz generally this will always be checked 

My Backup Plan: If I were to succeed and become a PJ then I would hope to go career with it, if not career then serve my time, do my duty and use my experience that I attained through it to better myself even more so, and pass it on to those that need it. If I were to Fail out, quit, or get injured, then to the needs of the USAF.I would hopefully try to circle back into the rescue/support area like as an SMA after exhausting all options to try for Pararescue again. A better day than the last with a smile on my face and a positive attitude would be all I ask for given whatever circumstance i'm thrown into.


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## Jacob Cathers (Jun 6, 2017)

New member here; 16 year old in preparation for Pararescue. Still continuing the backup plan part of this thread. As for right now, because my reason for joining Pararescue isn't because "I was born to do it", or "I've wanted to do it since I was little". It's because I want to help those that are injured, and save those on the brink of death. That being said, if I do fail, and if I do have the choice of AFSC after that; I'll likely go into some form of the medical side of the Air Force until I can try again. If anyone has any good positions in the section of the Air Force, please list them!


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## dap (Jun 20, 2017)

Software development and/or UX Engineering on contract until I can go back to school for a post-baccs.


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## SaintKP (Sep 8, 2017)

I'm not disillusioned by images of me cruising through the pipeline to becoming a SARC, like I said in TLDR20's thread _"First Post" _ I'm aware of the failure rates, Murphy's Law is a constant and cruel mistress and if anything I gained from growing up life will grab you by the short and curlys when you think you're on top of the world.

If I don't become a SARC them I'm fine with it, I'll try again but no matter what happens I'll still serve as the best Corpsman I can be where ever I go, and if for whatever reason I don't make it through to even become a Corpsman. Well I'm not entirely sure, I'd like to work as an EMT or even as a nurse in an ER somewhere.


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## Upstream (Sep 13, 2017)

My goal is pararescue.

I have a bachelor's degree and I'm a couple classes/direct patient care hours (EMT) away from being able to apply to a master's program as a Physician Assistant, which was my goal before pararescue started to seem feasible.  Although PA is a job I could see myself in further down the line, currently, if I'm being honest with myself, the thought of years of academia and playing nice seems daunting. 
That being said, I understand the reality is that a huge percentage of guys don't make it through the pipeline.

Pararescue incorporates everything I've dreamed of since I was young, where being at the whims of the regular Air Force as an enlisted airman sort of seems like the opposite of a good dream for me personally (no disrespect intended to the Air Force). 
If the military doesn't work out I'd pursue PA school and continue to compete in jiu jitsu and find my way into the medical side of a civilian search and rescue organization in an attempt to scratch the itch.
If (and I'm uncomfortable even typing this out) I'm allowed to go and I don't make it through, will I most likely have to put the pursuit of PA school on hold for years while I do some random job no one chose for their MOS?

I realize I'm not stating a definitive backup plan here, but this is me trying to further formulate the backup plan to ensure I'm not being an idiot in some way. 
I'd like to think I could follow the "burn the boats" policy but realistically unforeseen stuff sometimes happens.  Any feedback/criticism is welcome.


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 13, 2017)

.


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## Upstream (Sep 13, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> When you finish up the PA program and pass all your certification testing you are a PA. At that point, you are prepared to begin practice as such. In practice, you are a newbie in that field and have just begun to develop and expand your knowledge in the field of practice you have been trained for. You will be WORKING as a PA, it is a far step away from  "playing nice" you and losing sleep most nights is part of the job. If you think being a PA is a walk in the park, you are badly mistaken.  If you do not continue your education in the practice as a PA, you have wasted your time and the competitive slot.
> 
> For grins, let's say you go with PA then PJ route, and it actually happens. During PJ selection, training and duty as a PJ, that is the level of medical care you will be using. You will have zero practice time as a PA. When you decide to step away from the PJ world, do you plan to just step into a PA role somewhere? If you try, they will ask to see your CV, aka where you have practiced as a PA. They will also be looking for your mandatory continuing education credits and other PA Board requirements. The reality at that point is that you are a PJ looking for a job as a PA. I don't know how long the PJ pipeline for pre selection to graduation is. The time you are in the pipeline is time away from the PA practice world and it may impact your ability if find a practice as a PA.
> 
> ...



Thank you for your response, I think I might not have been totally clear and I apologize. If I can't make the PJ thing happen for whatever reason, my backup plan is to pursue a Physician Assistant program SO LONG as I'm not at the whims of the Air Force for years on end preventing me from doing that. I don't want to graduate from PA school and THEN join the Air Force. I have no illusions about the difficulties of PA school, I have a friend who is a new PA and my cousin is currently suffering through her second semester of PA school. I know it is a challenging and rewarding profession, which is why I strongly consider it. By "play nice" I just sort of meant I'm not yet excited to spend 2 years in library study groups. I would prefer more physically/spiritually challenging life experiences at the moment, like having my head stood on in the pool until I start to black out, and I think pararescue has more to offer in that realm. You are correct that PJ is my plan A.


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## KANGAROOS (Oct 14, 2017)

I i didn't make the Cut for whatever reason i would accept My failure and try again When allowed.
If you learn from your failures you become even stronger the next time if that makes sense


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 14, 2017)

.


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## KANGAROOS (Oct 14, 2017)

@Red Flag 1, Thank you. 

Im not gonna talk too much about SOF selection i gotta wait and see how it is if i ever get the chance.
Might have some quitter in me, in that case just gotta get rid of it before it takes over.


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## Red Flag 1 (Oct 15, 2017)

[.


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## KANGAROOS (Oct 15, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> After reading through all of your posts, I have reservations regarding your post #284 which led me down a path that probably does not exist.
> 
> You are right to not post about SOF selection. It is tempting to just delete what you have posted, but it shows more of who you are and the things you say about yourself. That having been said, what you post will stand as you posted it. The story you have told us that I believe is true is the one about the Xanax, weed, the police, and the police K-9s.



Well i tried to be honest and look for answers here, instead i get shit on pretty much. I understand where y'all coming from and im just another teenager with a big mouth, but i genuinely Belive i can achive pretty much anything with the heart and mind in it and never give up on My Goals because that is what i have been Raised to Belive, and by that i don't just mean SOF selection but Any obstacle or difficulty i may face in life.

I might not be the best writer or even have good grammar wich is something i am working on, but i have been honest and Only came to this forums for guidance for the years to come. None of y'all might not Belive i can achive Any of this but i am gonna stay on this forum and keep Posting how My path really goes down.

Kangaroos out.


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## Grunt (Oct 15, 2017)

KANGAROOS said:


> Well i tried to be honest and look for answers here, instead i get shit on pretty much. I understand where y'all coming from and im just another teenager with a big mouth, but i genuinely Belive i can achive pretty much anything with the heart and mind in it and never give up on My Goals because that is what i have been Raised to Belive, and by that i don't just mean SOF selection but Any obstacle or difficulty i may face in life.
> 
> I might not be the best writer or even have good grammar wich is something i am working on, but i have been honest and Only came to this forums for guidance for the years to come. None of y'all might not Belive i can achive Any of this but i am gonna stay on this forum and keep Posting how My path really goes down.
> 
> Kangaroos out.



Don't allow yourself to be offended by the lessons you are learning here. They may seem painful, but you are talking with serious people about serious issues who take them seriously. Learn from them because should you succeed at your goals, you too will one day be giving that same advice. Man up, go forth, and conquer....


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## Ратник114 (May 12, 2018)

Permanent Failure: 
Infantry (hopefully)

Temporary Failure (year or so delay): 
Whatever the Unit will let me do to stay with them and get another shot. I’ll Clean Toilets for two years and retrain if it means another shot at BRC.

I am just here to serve. Recon is a personal goal which I am dedicated too. I’ll only get there with support and giving all I got.


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## Njonti (May 17, 2018)

Gonna try for a recon contract after I graduate from college in a year, originally was thinking SARC but I've realized I want to be a Marine more than I want to be a medical provider, and with this contract if I were to fail I'd still be a Marine (Hopefully infantry, but would be needs of the Marine Corps).

 Getting scuba cert this summer, graduating with a B.S. in an environmental major next winter and have connections with research divers/ rescue divers so could be a cool path to pursue after I'd get out, then perhaps apply to become an EPA agent or something along those lines.

I can already max the pft and swim and tread for days so hopefully with another full year of training I'll be able to give it my best after enlisting.


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## Medicmanny (May 29, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> For all you SOF wanna/gonna be's out there- I know this couldn't POSSIBLY happen to you, but what happens if you go out there and don't make the cut? What if you get injured in your selection, or it turns out you just aren't ready for your services' special operations job? Have you considered the A of your PACE? How about the E?
> 
> Let's just say, for the sake of the thread, that you don't get on to a team- what then?



I don't know what the current needs of the Air Force would be, but if I didn't make the pipeline I'd hope to go to for something that I could do well. I'd be happy with anything medical, or Security Forces, but I'd be open to learning something completely new. Sometimes that's a great way to shake things up - I'd take that time to take what I learned from the pipeline to learn and grow, increase my fitness and mental toughness, and then reapply for another shot ASAP.


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## Chronicler (Jul 21, 2018)

I haven’t even enlisted yet. Won’t be going to MEPS until October. If all goes well then I’ll get an 18x contract. I have multiple scenarios and paths in my head to follow in the event I can’t get Airborne on my contract (I’ll need a waiver), my PULHES isn’t good enough, I can’t get into the Army, or I can’t get into any branch, but I won’t bore you with any of those. 

If all goes well and I get the contract that I want but I don’t make selection, I’ll likely try to return for another attempt or try to get a RASP contract. Or I’ll serve in whichever infantry unit I’m put in. I could also try to commission since I’ll have a degree. I’d be 24 at the time I start OSUT, so time isn’t on my side as far as youthfulness goes. I’ve got plenty of options in the event I don’t make it. I’ll just have to pick which one is best for me and move from there. 

I wanted to be a SEAL when I was in high school and I had the “I’ll die before I quit” attitude. I got med DQ’d and had to scramble to figure out what to do with myself. I have since learned how important it is to have multiple options for everything that could go wrong. I have also become slightly more paranoid.


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## Firemedic#21 (Jul 26, 2018)

I'm not going to be signing any contract until late this year, early next. My ultimate goal is SF (specifically 18D). The horror stories of guys being nonselects, or failing the Q course has me constantly revamping my back up plan.

In my heart of hearts, I want to go 18x. In my head, I feel like I should sign a 68W Option 40, and go to SF later. If all else fails, injury or other, I'll at least be a 68W. I have several buddies who spent time in the 75th, and I have long waivered back and forth between 75th or SF. I would love to do both if possible, and if I am not the guy SF needs at the time, I would still being a Ranger. If I wasn't able to be a Ranger, I would still be able to be a medic (so I've been told).

The only downfall to this is that my buddies said that I could be perceived to be using the 75th as a "stepping stone" to SF, and that isn't taken too kindly. They said that the 75th needs guys who want to be Rangers. I don't want to be perceived as doing that, because that is not my intentions at all. I respect the 75th for all that it is, and it would be a privilege to serve in it.

As I said earlier, I'm constantly revamping, and probably will a few more times before I sign.


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## DA SWO (Jul 27, 2018)

Firemedic#21 said:


> I'm not going to be signing any contract until late this year, early next. My ultimate goal is SF (specifically 18D). The horror stories of guys being nonselects, or failing the Q course has me constantly revamping my back up plan.
> 
> In my heart of hearts, I want to go 18x. In my head, I feel like I should sign a 68W Option 40, and go to SF later. If all else fails, injury or other, I'll at least be a 68W. I have several buddies who spent time in the 75th, and I have long waivered back and forth between 75th or SF. I would love to do both if possible, and if I am not the guy SF needs at the time, I would still being a Ranger. If I wasn't able to be a Ranger, I would still be able to be a medic (so I've been told).
> 
> ...


Don't worry about your buddies, what do you want to do? 68W to 18D is an honorable desire.
There are formers Rangers in SF and other units, all using what they learned to be better Soldiers.


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