# Barrel length



## Seajack (Oct 21, 2010)

Hey everyone, 

I'm looking to buy an M14/M1-A style rifle in the future, and have been looking at Springfield Armory's models. As far as marksmanship goes, I'm a pretty good shot, and am on two rifle teams. We just recently bought a small strip of property that opened a hill to hill area that is about 1000 meters. 

I am looking at the SOCOM II model (I dig the pic rails), but was wondering if that 18 inch barrel is going to give me decent results at that range (between 800 and 1000 meters). Should I be leaning more toward a 20+ inch? I can make the shots(not consistently center mass, but they are hitting) at those ranges with my PSL-54, but it's 24 inches, and a larger round.


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## pardus (Oct 21, 2010)

I have a couple of questions for you.

Why was the SOCOM II developed with an 18" barrel? What is it's purpose? Does that match what you want to do up to 1,000m? 
What does Springfield Armory think? Is that their long range gun?

You tell me, I've never been on a rifle team.


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## Headshot (Oct 21, 2010)

Between the two you need to consider the bore twist, and the lands and grooves more so than the length.  I'm sure the SOCOM II has taken this into consideration; but shooting out to 800+m you will be wanting somewhere around a 1:11.25 on the twists, with an odd number of lands to keep the round concentric.  You also need to know how the sides of the lands are cut.  Keep in mind that rifles are like printers; you can have the most high tech printer on the market but if you run low grade paper through it, you will get a low grade print.  The longer barrel will serve you better at those distances if it is made for the distance, and you run a grade of cartridge through it that is also made to take it.

It sounds like you need to keep doing some research before laying money out for something like that when you only consider yourself a "pretty good shot". :2c:


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## fox1371 (Oct 21, 2010)

Why do you "dig the pic rails?"  Is it just the "cool" factor that you're looking for here?


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## Seajack (Oct 21, 2010)

pardus said:


> I have a couple of questions for you.
> 
> Why was the SOCOM II developed with an 18" barrel? What is it's purpose? Does that match what you want to do up to 1,000m?
> What does Springfield Armory think? Is that their long range gun?
> ...


 
They have longer range weapons (longer barrels, include optics, etc), but they are much pricier. If I can get acceptable results from something a little cheaper, and more versatile, I'll take that. The specific rifle was designed as less of a long range rifle, but an 18" is still alot bigger than, for example, your average AR.



Headshot said:


> It sounds like you need to keep doing some research before laying money out for something like that when you only consider yourself a "pretty good shot". :2c:


 
I'm pretty well rounded with my shooting, I just shoot more than I research, which I will definitely be doing more of before I make a large purchase like that.



fox1371 said:


> Why do you "dig the pic rails?"  Is it just the "cool" factor that you're looking for here?



I remove and add on bi-pods rather frequently, depending on what I'm doing. The same goes for scopes, it's just convienient. If I was going for looks, I would steer clear from them, but right now I'd take useful over "cool".


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## The91Bravo (Oct 21, 2010)

Seajack said:


> They have longer range weapons (longer barrels, include optics, etc), but they are much pricier. If I can get acceptable results from something a little cheaper, and more versatile, I'll take that. The specific rifle was designed as less of a long range rifle, but an 18" is still alot bigger than, for example, your average AR.
> 
> *If accuracy on a budget (we're talking 800+ yards here) then you need a bolt gun that has been bluprinted by a real pro.  Wait on a gas gun until you can afford the tool that fits your objective.*
> 
> ...



Good luck,


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## 8'Duece (Oct 21, 2010)

The Springfield Armory SOCOM and SOCOM II are both 16" barrels, not 18" 

Personally with .308 I'd get the standard SA M1/M14 and then replace the furniture with the Troy industries.  You'll get your pic rails and a pistol grip and fancy stock and still be able to reach out and touch someone.

To answer the question.  The 16" barrel M1/M14 SOCOM was developed for the civillian "shorter is cool" crowd.  I fail to see the uitility in a 16" .308 weapon. YMMV

Picture of SA SOCOM 16" with Troy Furniture.


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## skeeter (Oct 21, 2010)

You also need to take into consideration that for every inch of barrel you choose not to have you will loose about 50 feet per second. Over long distances you will have a LOT more drop with the same round compared to if you had the longer barrel. I also agree with The91Bravo about being able to get an affordable good shooting rifle if you go with a bolt gun. good luck with your shooting.


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## 8'Duece (Oct 21, 2010)

Take into consideration also that the shorter SOCOM barrel, 16" is a 1:11 twist rate with 6 grooves.  This requires proper ammunition to be effective out to range. Any BTHT in 168 grain seems to perform the best out of the 16" barrel SA M1A/M14. You can keep under 2MOA with these rounds @ 100 Meters.


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## Mac_NZ (Oct 22, 2010)

Buy an SLR, you want to be able to hit shit at 1000m but by fuck you will look awesome trying!


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## gits (Oct 22, 2010)

I had a SOCOM 16 it was pretty much a 3-4 MOA gun maybe 2 if I was lucky with the right ammo. I sold it and picked up a Scout model and threw it in a SAGE EBR have been waiting on some glass to top it off and get some data on it. If your looking to do some serious shooting, look at buying a rifle made by Smith Enterprises, or get a barreled receiver from them and throw it in a Sage EBR stock or JAE-100.


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## 8'Duece (Oct 22, 2010)

gits said:


> I sold it and picked up a Scout model and threw it in a SAGE EBR



Love the SAGE EBR. Basically the Mk14 set up.  Expensive though, but it's worth it.


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## 8'Duece (Oct 22, 2010)

Here is the SAGE EBR brochure.  It rocks !!

PDF HERE:  http://ustacticalsupply.com/productimages/sage/ebr.pdf


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 22, 2010)

With running that short of a barrel you are going to need to run 173/175 grain loads and run them very hot on the charge. I would not use anything less than a 20 inch barrel and even with that your ganna have some loose accuracy. As for barrel twist, 1:10 is where you are going to want to be, 1:11 will be okay but again your ganna have to run a hot load. Running hot loads in a M1-A is going to play hell on your action as well. Personally for those ranges I would look at a National Match M1A1 and then change out your chassie/stock to get the feel you want. There is already plunty of load/dope data out for that rifle at 600 to 1000 yards from NRA/CMP/AMU.


By the way, what shooting teams are you on? What dicipline?


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## gits (Oct 22, 2010)

Lets put it this way, what is your budget like for purchasing a precision gun? We can talk about this all day and give you recommendations but a budget will at least be able to help us narrow down your choices.


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## The91Bravo (Oct 22, 2010)

1.  Buy the shittiest Rem 700 you can find so you can poach the action. ($300)

2.  Remove the barrel and get a Shilen barrel. ($300)

3.  Find a COMPETENT smith.  to square the face of the bolt, locking lugs, and barrel, and install the barrel. Also have him tune the existing trigger. ($150-450)

4.  Find a decent stock. I recommend HS Precision, but I am biased. Used works perfectly as long as it is still true. ($150(used)to $650(new w/ adj butt and cheek))

5.  Get good glass. Now here you can go from $200 (fair, will last a good while *if* it does not get damaged) all the way up, and I mean UP!  like $3500-4000 for a nice US Optics piece.  You can probably settle for a good scope WITH a MilDot reticle used for... lets say $350.  Eventually you will want an optic that allows you to zoom your reticle with the magnification (called being in the _Front Focal Plane_)  I have a Leupold MKIV LR/T 3.5-10x40 with Tactical Milling Reticle, in the Front Focal Plane.  Law enforcement discount on this $1500 piece was just under $900. BUT it has a lifetime... go drive over it... shoot a hole in it.... drag it behind your truck warranty that helps me tell my wife that if thei $900 black tube breaks I get a new one for free.

6.  Get a Harris Bipod. $60

Let's see, what is the total?

$1160 Low ball side
$1700 for a fantastic sub MOA gun
Above $3000 to 5000, a sub 1/2 MOA gun.

You can go cheaper, but if you hit a 1000 yard target, it will only be by chance.

Hope this helps.
Steve

p.s. I found my Remington Long Action BDL Magnum receiver on GunBroker about 3-5 years ago for right around $360 IIRC.  They are out there.

p.p.s. as for a super custom like an Accuracy International, Surgeon, or other brands like that.  I know for a fact that you are not going to get a better gun than listed above IF, I say again, _*IF*_ you find a good gunsmith.  He can make miracles happen.  And when you find that Smith... you had better take care of him, because they are getting harder and harder to find.

p.p.p.s.  Whatever you do, dont go lay a chunk of cash down at a smith you have never worked with (in this scope and level of precision) until you see ALOT of his work, in person and talk to his customers at length... The old, "Bubba done me good on my turkey gun, he oughta be able to get yer tack driver with no sweat.. he just got a new DEE-Walt drill to drill out them barrel thingy's"  will leave you angry at yourself, your friend that referred you, and at God for letting you be so stupid.  TAKE YOUR TIME and do it right.  and you will have something like this;


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## Seajack (Oct 23, 2010)

gits said:


> Lets put it this way, what is your budget like for purchasing a precision gun? We can talk about this all day and give you recommendations but a budget will at least be able to help us narrow down your choices.


 
I'm gonna say $2,000, excluding optics.



gits said:


> I had a SOCOM 16 it was pretty much a 3-4 MOA gun maybe 2 if I was lucky with the right ammo. I sold it and picked up a Scout model and threw it in a SAGE EBR have been waiting on some glass to top it off and get some data on it. If your looking to do some serious shooting, look at buying a rifle made by Smith Enterprises, or get a barreled receiver from them and throw it in a Sage EBR stock or JAE-100.



Those two stocks you mentioned look awesome, I'd love to feel one. 



J.A.B. said:


> By the way, what shooting teams are you on? What dicipline?



From the sounds of it, I might be looking more at a 20+ inch barrel. Something a little more specific and less versatile maybe. I'd really like to hit those targets out there. I've got a lot of time to think about it,but I've always loved M1-A's. One would fit well into my collection, I think. 

I'm on my high school's shooting team,and a local county's team. I wanna start high power, and maybe three gun, but I am not sure if I am old enough.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 23, 2010)

Seajack said:


> I'm on my high school's shooting team,and a local county's team. I wanna start high power, and maybe three gun, but I am not sure if I am old enough.


 
If your going to shoot High Power in the future I would again tell you too buy a NM M1A1 or even a NM AR15, I run an 80gr load for my NM AR15 in order to shoot long range that will hold 1MOA at 1000yds. You can pick up a NM AR15 for roughly $1100 from Rock River and its a great rifle to learn high power/service rifle on. If you pick up a A3 model you can still mount an optic for plinking, however you will have your carry handel and irons for comp's. 

Are you shooting small bore?


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## The91Bravo (Oct 23, 2010)

JAB,
Could you post your recipe for that 80 gr load?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 23, 2010)

The91Bravo said:


> JAB,
> Could you post your recipe for that 80 gr load?



I will have to get back to you on that, they are loaded by AMU. I personally do not reload.


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## The91Bravo (Oct 23, 2010)

Thanks.. anytime would be great.


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## Arrow 4 (Oct 23, 2010)

Get a Remington 700P, bolt guns are sexy!


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## SpitfireV (Oct 24, 2010)

91B, great post. I'm looking at eventually building a nice rifle but I need to learn about things first, so that post is a great starting point. Thanks!


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## The91Bravo (Oct 24, 2010)

Well at least I did something right this weekend. lol  Thanks


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## skeeter (Oct 24, 2010)

If you go with a Remington build off of one of their actions... all factory Remington barrels are a 1:12 RH Twist. You need 1:10 for a good long distance gun to handle the heavier bullets.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 24, 2010)

skeeter said:


> If you go with a Remington build off of one of their actions... all factory Remington barrels are a 1:12 RH Twist. You need 1:10 for a good long distance gun to handle the heavier bullets.



Remington's tactical line is 1:10, (SPS, LTR, PSS, & 5R).


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## Seajack (Oct 24, 2010)

J.A.B. said:


> If your going to shoot High Power in the future I would again tell you too buy a NM M1A1 or even a NM AR15, I run an 80gr load for my NM AR15 in order to shoot long range that will hold 1MOA at 1000yds. You can pick up a NM AR15 for roughly $1100 from Rock River and its a great rifle to learn high power/service rifle on. If you pick up a A3 model you can still mount an optic for plinking, however you will have your carry handel and irons for comp's.
> 
> Are you shooting small bore?



Yeah, I'm only shooting small bore competitively. Right now I have a Bushmaster E2, and I'm pretty good with the irons out to about 300 yards. Haven't plinked with it at any farther range.


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## skeeter (Oct 24, 2010)

J.A.B. said:


> Remington's tactical line is 1:10, (SPS, LTR, PSS, & 5R).


 
Thanks for correcting me! Has that changed within the last year or so? I was looking at the SPS in .308 two years ago and the specs were all 1:12. That's why I went with the savage tactical line.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 25, 2010)

Seajack said:


> Yeah, I'm only shooting small bore competitively. Right now I have a Bushmaster E2, and I'm pretty good with the irons out to about 300 yards. Haven't plinked with it at any farther range.



Right on, I started in small bore when I was 12 and went to service rifle/high power when I was 15 (still enjoy small bore). I am not trying to debunk anything that has been told to you here, it's all great advice. But you would be better served with a rifle you can use for both comps and your end goal (getting hits at 800-1000). With an end price range at $2000 you are able to pick up a NM M1A or NM AR 15 both can be mounted with optics, bipods and many other things. Both will give you roughly 1MOA at the distances you want to shoot, however that will take some time, training and a lot of rounds down range. 

You really need to start applying a focus on learning how to read/call wind. Learning how to work your wind dope on the fly in between shots. Small bore and shooting at 300y/m is not going to give you enough effect for you to get a full understanding. If you’re going to shoot 5.56 I would spend time at the 500y/m distance, and if you are shooting 7.62 I would spend time at 800y/m distance. At these ranges you will get a greater effect on your bullet and this will teach you not to ignore that 3mph wind that you sometimes can at 300y/m. There is a group on this forum called “SHOOTERS” it has some pretty good info on wind dope.



skeeter said:


> Thanks for correcting me! Has that changed within the last year or so? I was looking at the SPS in .308 two years ago and the specs were all 1:12. That's why I went with the savage tactical line.



I don't know but it's been that way for at least a year or so, I have been thinking about using the SPS for a bolt gun build. ;)

http://www.remington.com/products/firearms/centerfire/model-700/model-700-sps-tactical-aac-sd.aspx


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## Seajack (Oct 27, 2010)

J.A.B. said:


> Right on, I started in small bore when I was 12 and went to service rifle/high power when I was 15 (still enjoy small bore). I am not trying to debunk anything that has been told to you here, it's all great advice. But you would be better served with a rifle you can use for both comps and your end goal (getting hits at 800-1000). With an end price range at $2000 you are able to pick up a NM M1A or NM AR 15 both can be mounted with optics, bipods and many other things. Both will give you roughly 1MOA at the distances you want to shoot, however that will take some time, training and a lot of rounds down range.
> 
> You really need to start applying a focus on learning how to read/call wind. Learning how to work your wind dope on the fly in between shots. Small bore and shooting at 300y/m is not going to give you enough effect for you to get a full understanding. If you’re going to shoot 5.56 I would spend time at the 500y/m distance, and if you are shooting 7.62 I would spend time at 800y/m distance. At these ranges you will get a greater effect on your bullet and this will teach you not to ignore that 3mph wind that you sometimes can at 300y/m. There is a group on this forum called “SHOOTERS” it has some pretty good info on wind dope.





I'm definitely leaning towards the 7.62/.308, so I'll look into the NM's. I'm going to be getting into great depth this year with my shooting. All my neighbors are retired Marines, and a few miles away was a scout sniper for a, so I am hoping I'll get some good tips. 

I've currently got a Bushmaster XM15, I might sell that to put towards an NM15 if I'll get better results. 

I'll join the group as well, I'll take any advice I can get, thanks.

Also, skeeter, would you recommend a rifle from Savage's tactical line? They are pretty popular around where I live, so maybe I am missing out on something?


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## 8'Duece (Oct 28, 2010)

I have a Les Baer "Thunder Ranch" AR15 with a 16" fluted match barrel, propietary to Les Baer (416 Stainless, match chamber) Flat top, mid length gas system with free floating propietary aluminum handguards with 1913 pic rails up front.  Flip up front sight base with Tritium sight post. 

I use a fixed 5x scope and it will hold .5 MOA all day long with decent ammunition. That is promised from Les Baer Custom and it's true to that promise. 

The rifle can also serve as a go-too battle rifle.  Every thing about the Les Baer Custom rifle is top notch. Nickel coated BCG group and Jewel two stage comp trigger system. It is also ajustable. It all comes standard with the rifle.  The only mod I made to the rifle was to change out the standard A2 fixed stock with a retractable 6 position with Vltor EMOD stock. The optics in my photos are self explanatory with Larue mounts.  The LB Thunder Ranch rifle also comes with his propietary Bear Coat finish.  It is the best finish I have ever seen or experienced on an AR platform rifle.  The barrel is an 1:8 twist with bench rest cut rifleing. A great comprismise between 1:7 and 1:9 twist rates. 

You can see it in my profile pics.  LB Custom rocks !!!  

It will fit your price point without having to build a single thing.


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