# AR/M4 Piston Upper question?



## arizonaguide (Mar 15, 2009)

Anyone have firsthand experience with piston uppers?

In my new gunshop job, I had a coworker that was answering a customer's questions about AR's, and steering him away from the piston uppers with the advice that there have been problems...something about "peening"...but I didn't have time to query him on it. I have heard nothing like that until I overheard his conversation.

Has anyone been familiar with anything like this?
Bullshit?

:cool:


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## AssadUSMC (Mar 15, 2009)

Peening?  The only thing I could see that referring to is if the piston is driving back against the bolt carrier (where the gas key used to be) with too much force.  I haven't heard any problems from the LMT/LWRC/HK/etc. piston uppers.  I am trying to buy a piston rifle if I ever find one for sale again... (and not on the GunTrader).


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## HOLLiS (Mar 15, 2009)

I have to gas piston ARs, one is from the Mid 60's, the other from the early 90's.  I have other gas piston firearms.  They still need to be cleaned.  The quality of the firearm is more important than if it has a piston or not.

"Peening", as in rounding or indenting?


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## pardus (Mar 15, 2009)

I used almost exclusively (with the exception of the M16A1 I was issued with briefly) gas pistons, they are the only way to go IMO.

I know almost nothing about the AR gas situation, though I do know there are two different types out there, a short piston and a long piston, ive used both on different rifles without trouble but again I don't know much about the AR gas piston set ups.

You can buy aftermarket pistons at www.weaponeer.net

Here is some info on it...



> Unlike the other conversions on the market, this is a long stroke conversion which is a LOW Pressure system that puts very little stress on the weapon, unlike the short stroke HIGH pressure conversions.  lower pressure = less wear.
> 
> We have 100 units to sell and we only have 45 days to offer this extremely low intro price. (note: normally gas piston conversions don't sell for much less than $400)
> 
> Price: $249 SHIPPED


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## 08steeda (Mar 15, 2009)

Gas Piston is cleaner (less required cleaning), can fire at a higher rate of fire and also has less recoil(kick) so follow on shots are easier to line up.

I am sure there are experts here who could talk more about the technical aspects and Pro's and Con's of them. But they are supposedly more reliable and have a longer shelf life.

I would go Gas Piston in the future based upon my research. Neither of mine are pistol weapons (BushMaster and Colt).


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## arizonaguide (Mar 15, 2009)

See, that's what I understood was that piston was the way to go.

JAB has turned me onto some great learning info (a while back!) about the M4/AR platform, and I've just started coming up to speed, but by no means am I an expert. Most of my handling was back in the M16 (USAF) days, and never had one of my own to play with.
(I always had the M1 based platforms to play with instead!)

But, I believe it was the bolt carrier he was refering to. I was evesdropping on his conversation, so I didn't get the whole story...but I will grill him tomorrow.


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## HOLLiS (Mar 16, 2009)

08steeda said:


> Gas Piston is cleaner (less required cleaning), can fire at a higher rate of fire and also has less recoil(kick) so follow on shots are easier to line up.
> 
> I am sure there are experts here who could talk more about the technical aspects and Pro's and Con's of them. But they are supposedly more reliable and have a longer shelf life.
> 
> I would go Gas Piston in the future based upon my research. Neither of mine are pistol weapons (BushMaster and Colt).



As if recoil on a 5.56 nato is all that much.
Less cleaning.   I doubt my Gunny would agree.  Anytime you shoot, you clean.  If your not shooting your cleaning.  

I don't know about higher rate of fire, it is not a MG.  Even then MG have their limits.   Also how much ammo do you carry.   Functional rate of fire is a lot less that stats.   


Civilian and military needs do not always coincide.    

Gas piston has been around for a long time.  Gas piston is the current WOW factor more than anything else.   I am not saying there are not very nice GP rifles out there.   The AR is not a shabby design.


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## x SF med (Mar 16, 2009)

Adams Arms has piston retrofit kits for the AR/M4 family of weapons.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 16, 2009)

Gas piston's on the AR's is the best way to go IMO. I have tested the 416 and put thousands of rounds through them, they run cleaner and require less care...


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## x SF med (Mar 16, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> Gas piston's on the AR's is the best way to go IMO. I have tested the 416 and put thousands of rounds through them, they run cleaner and require less care...


 
FN has been using pistons for years....:)


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## HOLLiS (Mar 16, 2009)

x SF med said:


> FN has been using pistons for years....:)



Armalite AR 18 or 180  mid sixty gas piston jobby do.


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## 08steeda (Mar 16, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> As if recoil on a 5.56 nato is all that much.
> Less cleaning. I doubt my Gunny would agree. Anytime you shoot, you clean. If your not shooting your cleaning.
> 
> I don't know about higher rate of fire, it is not a MG. Even then MG have their limits. Also how much ammo do you carry. Functional rate of fire is a lot less that stats.
> ...


 
Your Gunny and I agree! Because it is supposed to be more durable and requires less cleaning does not mean that you don't clean the weapon after each firing session!

I think the idea was that in sustained combat it would hold up better under a dirty environment were the opportunity to clean it may not be there!

I saw a video (at a friends - I will try and find out what the title was) showing how the rate of fire as well as the improved accuracy from the reduction in recoil (Yes it isn't huge to begin with) improves with the Gas Piston. As I said I am NO EXPERT, I just did alot of research. I wanted to determine if the upgrade was worth it on both my AR's or if I was pissing in the wind!

Plus WOW factor always improves sales! I get that! But some of it appears to be for real! Maybe Gun Doctor can comment. He pointed me to some great research and info back when I was researching it!


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## pardus (Mar 16, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> Armalite AR 18 or 180  mid sixty gas piston jobby do.



I hear that is an excellent rifle!



08steeda said:


> Your Gunny and I agree! Because it is supposed to be more durable and requires less cleaning does not mean that you don't clean the weapon after each firing session!
> 
> I think the idea was that in sustained combat it would hold up better under a dirty environment were the opportunity to clean it may not be there!
> 
> ...



Logic dictates pistons are better.
They work cooler and cleaner, that's all you need to know about the concept, it is a better system.
But like I stated earlier I don't know much about pistons specifically for ARs.

I think the LWRC & POF & 416 rifles speak for themselves as being the gold standard for AR type rifles and they are all pistons.

2 out of the 3 most successful semi auto rifles ever are piston weapons, FN FAL and AKs and I guarantee they will run alot longer than the other (AR), without being cleaned. 

:2c:


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## HOLLiS (Mar 16, 2009)

I guess the next aspect is the buying of whole new rifle and support logistic worth the advantage that it has over the M4, or is the advantage that significant.   

Would I junk my old AR and notice that the new GP rifle advantage worth the cost.   I would say, in my position it wouldn't matter if I went to my Daisy Red Ryder.   I would like to have a HK.


A side note, I heard in Ireland the AR 18 was referred to as the Widow Maker, it was preferred by the  terrorists there.


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## pardus (Mar 16, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> I guess the next aspect is the buying of whole new rifle and support logistic worth the advantage that it has over the M4, or is the advantage that significant.



I really don't think you could justify that expense, though I don't know what the failure rate on the M4 is but I don't think it's too bad, others will know more than me.

I think it would be worth looking into the feasibility of dropping pistons into the current rifles.

Then again, one less F22 for the AF would prob pay for a HK416 for everyone!


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## HOLLiS (Mar 16, 2009)

pardus762 said:


> I really don't think you could justify that expense, though I don't know what the failure rate on the M4 is but I don't think it's too bad, others will know more than me.
> 
> I think it would be worth looking into the feasibility of dropping pistons into the current rifles.
> 
> Then again, one less F22 for the AF would prob pay for a HK416 for everyone!



I am clueless too on this issue.   How many guys are dumping their ARs and bying GP Rifles?  I know GP rifles are being bought, but are they dumping their ARs.   

Right now, if for any reason, for civilians anything black is going up in value.  Good possibility, a sold AR would be very difficult to replace.  I have trade going, but in it is a stripped AR lower.   That would allow me to build another/replace the one I traded off.  Other wise I would not do it.  

I have a friend coming over next week who is in the firearms business, he gets to try all the latest and greatest.  A job I would like to have.  We will do some BBQ, some Beer, some shooting and maybe  I'll learn more.  


I would think changing the uppers only would be more cost effective.  It would also cut logistical needs/costs compared to a all new rifle.


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## HOLLiS (Mar 17, 2009)

x SF med said:


> Adams Arms has piston retrofit kits for the AR/M4 family of weapons.



Have you had a chance to give them a try?  I thought of do a conversion to one of mine.   But then my engineering skills can be.........  let's just say on holiday when I need them the most.


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## pardus (Mar 18, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> Have you had a chance to give them a try?  I thought of do a conversion to one of mine.   But then my engineering skills can be.........  let's just say on holiday when I need them the most.



I _think_ these are a drop in kit...


http://www.weaponeer.net/forum/forum_posts.asp?TID=6392&PN=1&TPN=4


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