# Another protest.....



## Kraut783 (Aug 12, 2017)

Violent clashes between white nationalists and counterprotesters in Charlottesville

tired of these BS protests....from both sides....


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## ThunderHorse (Aug 12, 2017)

State of emergency with VA ARNG units mobilizing and deploying.


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## Kraut783 (Aug 12, 2017)

Crap...wheels starting to come off....

"At least one person was killed and 19 others were injured Saturday when a car rammed into a group of counter-protesters during the “Unite the Right” rally in Charlottesville, Va."

One dead, 19 injured after car plows into protesters during clashes at 'Unite the Right' rally


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## Red Flag 1 (Aug 12, 2017)

A heliocopter has been reported down near C'ville, about 1630L. It went down in a residential area. This from a VSP spokes person. The owner of the chopper has not been released yet. Two were confirmed dead in the chopper crash. Speculation is that it is a VSP aircraft that had been covering the C'ville events. The aircraft was fully engulfed in flames and the fatalities were the aircraft crew members.


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## Kraut783 (Aug 12, 2017)

Damn, VSP helicopter. News is saying two troopers dead


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## Red Flag 1 (Aug 12, 2017)

Rest In God's Own Peace, Troopers.


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## Salt USMC (Aug 12, 2017)

There's video

This is straight up murder.  Those alt-right Nazi fucks have thrown the first punch.  They had better be prepared for whatever comes their way.


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## Red Flag 1 (Aug 12, 2017)

All the elements for confrontation have always been in the greater C'ville area. UVA rules within the city limits and it is a place John Kerry could be crowned royalty. The surrounding area is a mix of strong conservative, Lee's Battle flag waiving from poles on their property and their pickup trucks. When the troubles were going on in Missouri a while back, I saw C'ville as being an event away from the same maddness.

When the decision was made to remove the statue of R E Lee from its hallowed place, the event happened. The difference in C'vill is that the LEO community has clean, and now grief laden hands. The judicial system will carry the weight with the suspect jailed for the dreadfull decision to kill with his car.

The protests and clashes could go on for days, even weeks. Removal of the Statue is still in the works and the clash could go on for quite a while. How much of this will spill outside the city? Will this make it ober the Blue Ridge Mtns. and into the Shen Valley? So far it is just in C'vill around UVA and the RE Lee Statue site.

This is a good time to be putting C'vill in my rearview.


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## ThunderHorse (Aug 12, 2017)

It's wild how one racist can remain on the city council when he was the match that lit this fire.


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## racing_kitty (Aug 12, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> There's video
> 
> This is straight up murder.  Those alt-right Nazi fucks have thrown the first punch.  They had better be prepared for whatever comes their way.


 You mean they have the first kill. Antifa threw the first punch. Get it right. 

As far as I'm concerned, let the Klan and those Antifa Stasi wannabes go fight it out in an open field until literally everyone dies. Let the adults handle protests and whatnot.


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## Salt USMC (Aug 13, 2017)

racing_kitty said:


> As far as I'm concerned, let the Klan and those Antifa Stasi wannabes go fight it out in an open field until literally everyone dies. Let the adults handle protests and whatnot.



Why?  There's clearly one wrong side in this fight, and it sure as hell isn't the Antifa.  This is not a simple difference of opinion.  One side an absolute cancer on our society who only exists to destroy our social fabric.  The other side wants to cave their skulls in.  I'm perfectly fine with that.  But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that these guys are just some sideshow attraction.  The white nationalists are going to keep showing up and they're going to keep spreading their message of hate and violence, all the while encouraged (or at the very least tolerated) by the current administration.  There is no reasoning with them, and there is no stopping them except by force.


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## ThunderHorse (Aug 13, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> Why?  There's clearly one wrong side in this fight, and it sure as hell isn't the Antifa.  This is not a simple difference of opinion.  One side an absolute cancer on our society who only exists to destroy our social fabric.  The other side wants to cave their skulls in.  I'm perfectly fine with that.  But let's not kid ourselves into thinking that these guys are just some sideshow attraction.  The white nationalists are going to keep showing up and they're going to keep spreading their message of hate and violence, all the while encouraged (or at the very least tolerated) by the current administration.  There is no reasoning with them, and there is no stopping them except by force.


There's definitely two sides to this.  Wes Bellamy lit the match, and this is the aftermath.


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## racing_kitty (Aug 13, 2017)

Oh, I agree that the racist fucks need to go, @Salt USMC. However, I vehemently, emphatically disagree with every fiber of my being with you about Antifa. We can agree to disagree about them, at best.  And if you openly support and advocate for them, then that's more than disappointing.


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## Salt USMC (Aug 13, 2017)

I do advocate for them, and I would hope that anyone who values an open and tolerant society would as well.


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## Kraut783 (Aug 13, 2017)

Antifa is always looking to counter demonstrate anything and cause damage and issues. Look at all of the legal demonstrations that have occurred....then you will see the masked fucks causing problems, even the  side they are supposedly supporting don't want them there.

I hate the white supremist and the left wing demonstrators....but these Antifa guys really suck.  They are only looking for conflict.


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## racing_kitty (Aug 13, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> I do advocate for them, and I would hope that anyone who values an open and tolerant society would as well.



As a small-L libertarian, I advocate for an open, JUST, and tolerant society. I also advocate for people to be able to disagree openly and freely, without fear of physical harm, no matter how repugnant their views. Antifa is not that. I deeply detest any organization that brands me as racist just because I'm all in favor of the government leaving the interracial gay pot farmers next door the fuck alone. 

I'd go further into why I despise Antifa, but 1) I'm on my phone at my side gig, and 2) it's falling on deaf ears anyway.


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## Salt USMC (Aug 13, 2017)

racing_kitty said:


> As a small-L libertarian, I advocate for an open, JUST, and tolerant society. I also advocate for people to be able to disagree openly and freely, without fear of physical harm, no matter how repugnant their views. Antifa is not that. I deeply detest any organization that brands me as racist just because I'm all in favor of the government leaving the interracial gay pot farmers next door the fuck alone.
> 
> I'd go further into why I despise Antifa, but 1) I'm on my phone at my side gig, and 2) it's falling on deaf ears anyway.


I get it, and I appreciate the sentiment.  However, free and open discourse relies on both sides not only arguing in good faith, but also be willing to accept and change their viewpoints.  You know, that whole "marketplace of ideas" thing.  The alt-right, Neo Nazi Richard Spencer fuckstains have demonstrated neither of those qualities.  YOU CANNOT REASON WITH THEM.  What's worse is that their viewpoints involve the active eradication or forced removal of actual people.  These aren't minor disagreements over whether abortion is moral or whatever.  This is an argument over ethnically cleansing jews.  You cannot argue with those people.  They will not accept your words and they will continue their violence.  Therefore, the only thing to meet them with is violence.  It's really that simple.  If you take the "live and let live" approach, if you try to remain as the impartial moderate, the problem WILL get worse.  There's a certain letter, written in a certain Birmingham jail, that you should take care to read.


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## racing_kitty (Aug 13, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> I get it, and I appreciate the sentiment.  However, free and open discourse relies on both sides not only arguing in good faith, but also be willing to accept and change their viewpoints.  You know, that whole "marketplace of ideas" thing.  The alt-right, Neo Nazi Richard Spencer fuckstains have demonstrated neither of those qualities.  What's worse is that their viewpoints involve the active eradication or forced removal of actual people.  These aren't minor disagreements over whether abortion is moral or whatever.  This is an argument over ethnically cleansing jews.  You cannot argue with those people.  They will not accept your words and they will continue their violence.  Therefore, the only thing to meet them with is violence.  It's really that simple.  If you take the "live and let live" approach, if you try to remain as the impartial moderate, the problem WILL get worse.  There's a certain letter, written in a certain Birmingham jail, that you should take care to read.



I've read it. Believe it or not, some people from Alabama are educated and not inbred. We agree on some things; however, I'm backing away from this thread because your condescending attitude has me a touch perturbed.


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## Salt USMC (Aug 13, 2017)

Sorry.  I'll pump the brakes on this.


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## Muppet (Aug 13, 2017)

Fuck them all. As I said on facebook, in short:

BLM, Nazi/KKK/white nationalists, Antifa....all fucking jerk offs.

I cannot see how any person with a brain and education can support these cunts. Antifa, the newest of retards. Claim "anti facism" but yet, attempt to silence any person NOT in support of them. The hundreds of videos of these idiots rioting, not protesting, rioting, using mole cock tails, carrying bats? That is not meant to be a "peaceful" rally in "resistance".

This thing in VA is a giant god damned abortion. I agree with @racing_kitty on this. I also think these cunts should be let free on each other, locked in a stadium, on a hunger game match. I mean, in regards to the white power/nazi jerk offs: did we not go to war over this, and won?

Am I worried about North Korea? I guess. I'm more worried about these fucking jerk offs. I've had my run ins with white power jerk offs. Very close to me, where I was a paramedic for 14 years, there is an enclave of skinheads  (Croydon, PA). Fucking assholes with their nazi ink. Had a few as pts. I tell em I'm a Jew. BLM, they are all around, calling for death to whites, cops, not fire and EMS, since we are in a uniform. Fuck all that shit.

M.


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## AWP (Aug 13, 2017)

Fuck people.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 13, 2017)

If you are down there to protest on either side you are probably an asshole, a drama queen wanting attention, or to "be part of the action." 

Most protesters nowadays can go eat a bag of dicks. Most of these shitbags do it just so they have something to post on social media to give their worthless lives some degree of relevance or interest.  That includes the BLM folks who block highways, and the over-the-top righties dressed in their airsoft gear.

I bet this is exactly what this officer wants to be doing today.


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## Red Flag 1 (Aug 13, 2017)

I have a few things to do in C'ville Monday. So, do I go with:

Shaved head?
Normal haircut?
Buy a wig with green hair?

Any of the above will piss someone off.

Flying back to England on Wednesday will be a good thing.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 13, 2017)

President Trump chose how I was going to feel about him and his leadership over this situation.  It was a "fastball down the middle" opportunity for the President to separate himself from these "Alt. Right/white power/supremacist groups" and ask out loud, "how does the Nazi symbol represent what America is supposed to stand for?"  

It was an opportunity for him to again say to David Duke, "Get off my side."

He is instead choosing to not take a stand and choosing to walk the line of really saying nothing:
_"We condemn in the strongest possible terms this egregious display of hatred, bigotry and violence, on many sides. On many sides. It's been going on for a long time in our country. Not Donald Trump, not Barack Obama. This has been going on for a long, long time."_

As a long time Republican, you are letting me down Mr. President.  Is it about votes?  Surely even you know that not speaking out is the same as saying it is acceptable to you.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 13, 2017)

I've been laughing and cussing as I read this thread. My honest opinion, is let those fuckheads on both sides kill the shit out of each other and then arrest who ever is left. I think both side suck and are nothing more than oxygen thieves.

RIP to the troopers killed in the helo-crash.

@Salt USMC you ain't right boy, advocating for Antifa, what the hell happened to you?


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## ThunderHorse (Aug 13, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> President Trump chose how I was going to feel about him and his leadership over this situation.  It was a "fastball down the middle" opportunity for the President to separate himself from these "Alt. Right/white power/supremacist groups" and ask out loud, "how does the Nazi symbol represent what America is supposed to stand for?"
> 
> It was an opportunity for him to again say to David Duke, "Get off my side."
> 
> ...


To be honest, that's the appropriate response for this.  Only addressing the white supremacists would not address how this whole thing in Charlottesville started many months ago.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 13, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> To be honest, that's the appropriate response for this.  Only addressing the white supremacists would not address how this whole thing in Charlottesville started many months ago.



I did not say he should only address the white supremacists.


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## Teufel (Aug 13, 2017)

History is complicated and people shouldn't try to erase their past. Robert E Lee was a Southern patriot who fought for his state when she broke from the Union. That does not automatically make him a rascist or a bad person. You can honor the man while recognizing that the confederacy survived on the forced labor of enslaved people.

That tempered line of reasonable thinking is lost, however, when extremists take the cause hostage with their racist narrative. You immediately lose popular support for anything when you gain the KKK's backing.


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## BloodStripe (Aug 13, 2017)

We all need to unite to stand against any hatred and bigotry that's going on here.

I know it's a lot to ask for and is totally an unrealistic goal, but nonetheless, it's one we should be striving for. That only happens when we sit down and talk to each other like adults. Additionally, we need to learn the art of compromise again.


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## RackMaster (Aug 13, 2017)

A good analysis by Ben Shapiro.

7 Things You Need To Know About The Charlottesville Violence And White Supremacist Terror Attack


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## DA SWO (Aug 13, 2017)

Teufel said:


> History is complicated and people shouldn't try to erase their past. Robert E Lee was a Southern patriot who fought for his state when she broke from the Union. That does not automatically make him a rascist or a bad person. You can honor the man while recognizing that the confederacy survived on the forced labor of enslaved people.
> 
> That tempered line of reasonable thinking is lost, however, when extremists take the cause hostage with their racist narrative. *You immediately lose popular support for anything when you gain the KKK's backing*.



Likewise getting support from BLM or the New Black Panther Party should diminish your level of support, has that happened?

That's why these Nazi/KKK ass-bags are getting traction, BLM and Antifa have been getting away with bad behavior for months, and the folks in charge do nothing.

The pot is getting ready to boil over and no one cares.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 13, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> POST



And it's absolutely both sides of the isle. President Obama was a speaker at the memorial for the 5 police officers slain in Dallas.  

He took the opportunity not to call for BLM and their ilk to stop celebrating violence on the police, but instead chose to essentially blame the police departments for bringing this on themselves.  

Obama defends Black Lives Matter protests at police memorial in Dallas

“_We have all seen this bigotry in our lives at some point,” Mr. Obama told an audience of about 2,500 at a concert hall in Dallas. “None of us is entirely innocent. No institution is entirely immune. And that includes our police departments. We know this.”_

These are only going to escalate and continue to get more violent.


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## DA SWO (Aug 13, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> *These are only going to escalate and continue to get more violent.*



Which is how Civil Wars start, and we are well down that path.


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## RackMaster (Aug 13, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> Which is how Civil Wars start, and we are well down that path.



I've seen the civil war writing on the wall for year's.  I don't think it will stay in the U.S. though.  Some of the same feelings are spreading in Canada.


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## Red Flag 1 (Aug 13, 2017)

Teufel said:


> History is complicated and people shouldn't try to erase their past. Robert E Lee was a Southern patriot who fought for his state when she broke from the Union. That does not automatically make him a rascist or a bad person. You can honor the man while recognizing that the confederacy survived on the forced labor of enslaved people.
> 
> That tempered line of reasonable thinking is lost, however, when extremists take the cause hostage with their racist narrative. You immediately lose popular support for anything when you gain the KKK's backing.



There is aUniversity that abuts VMI in Lexington, Va. Prior to Robert E Lee serving as it's President, it was called Washington University. Are we to expect the  Commonwealth of Virginia to now change the name back to Washington University? It would be a logical step in our time of political overcorrectness to make that change because the sitting Gov is supported in making such changes. 

To be honest, I am sick of the PC overreach. That is what is going on in C'ville. Today's political leaders are deciding to erase pre Civil War history. They are overlooking that the war was started over States Rights. You can make a case for Virginia to erase part of it's history, but how much of what we are seeing today is nothing more than a political movement?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 13, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> Which is how Civil Wars start, and we are well down that path.



I'm going to sit back and watch, then take on the winners. The way I see it, it's just a bunch mentally ill people running around doing retarded shit. Antifa are a bunch of millennial pussies that have no fucking clue what they are asking for. KKK, Nazi, skinheads or whatever they are calling themselves these days, are just as fucking stupid. I say we let them both kill off the masses and than we kill whoever is left.

I mean fuck being all friendly and working out our differences.  Sometimes you just gotta do a reset. Kill off a few million,  send a clear as fuck message that we are all tired of your fuckery. 

Dudes cutting off their dicks, wanting to go piss and shower with girls, black people mad at cops for killing black people, who are breaking the laws. Illegal immigrants bitching about being deported and not getting special treatment.  Donald Trump elected as POTUS...Seems like the whole damn world is going nuts. Might be time to thin the herd, maybe a return of the black plague or something. 

It's pretty fucked up when my irrational ass feels like the most rational person in the room. And I've been feeling that way a lot as of late.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 13, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Robert E. Lee was a brilliant soldier and arguably the best or one of the best military commanders ever turned out by this country. He wasn't evil, he wasn't a Nazi, he inspired love from his men and he alone was the single reason the war lasted as long as it did.



I'd argue that Stonewall Jackson was why the war lasted as long as it did, and his death was key to confederate Army losing. If he had survived his wounds, Gettysburg would have been very different.

I will agree that General Robert E Lee was an impressive commander and much more capable then Grant or Sherman ever were. I also think his history and the history of the civil war, most importantly the good and bad of the CSA should always be taught and learned, as to not repeat it again.

ETA: You moving to the Republic of Texas when all this shit breaks out and we reclaim our independence as sovereign nation?:-"


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## Red Flag 1 (Aug 13, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I'd argue that Stonewall Jackson was why the war lasted as long as it did, and his death was key to confederate Army losing. If he had survived his wounds, Gettysburg would have been very different.
> 
> I will agree that General Robert E Lee was an impressive commander and much more capable then Grant or Sherman ever were. I also think his history and the history of the civil war, most importantly the good and bad of the CSA should always be taught and learned, as to not repeat it again.
> 
> ETA: You moving to the Republic of Texas when all this shit breaks out and we reclaim our independence as sovereign nation?:-"




I have to agree that Lee's loss of Gen Thomas J. Jackson was a deeply personal and professional loss. No other General had to ability to take the fight to the enemy the way General Jackson did. Longstreet tried to fill Jackson's shoes, but Longstreet was a better defensive tactician than an offensive man. The turning point was Chanslersville, not Gettysburg.

Back to our OP.


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## BloodStripe (Aug 13, 2017)

Until Trump invites the leaders of the KKK to the White House, as Obama did the leaders of the BLM movement, this argument is a mute point.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 13, 2017)

If we could all just slow the fuck down... a civil war? Give me a fucking break. What are the sides? This is your indication, racists assholes on the right(?) and antifas assholes on the left(?), people literally on the absolute fringes of regular discourse and society? 

Meanwhile 99.9% of Americans go about their lives. 

People are sooooo oppressed in America we need to fight the government and our fellow citizens. 

Cool.

:-"


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## ThunderHorse (Aug 13, 2017)

There are racist assholes on both sides of this thing in C-Ville.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 13, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> There are racist assholes on both sides of this thing in C-Ville.


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## DasBoot (Aug 13, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> View attachment 19385


Savage.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 13, 2017)

*EDIT*:  This meme is inaccurate, I regret posting it.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 13, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Sing with feeling, ya all!
> 
> View attachment 19387



She said country so it is different....


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## ThunderHorse (Aug 13, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> View attachment 19385


Reading some posts in here it had me wondering.


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## Marauder06 (Aug 13, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Sing with feeling, ya all!
> 
> View attachment 19387



Anyone... you know... fact-check this?


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 13, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> Anyone... you know... fact-check this?



Got-damn it.

I fucking fact-check everything I post.  Hell I usually post supporting links....the one time I 'go with it', fail.  FAIL!

Did Melania Trump Criticism Of Charlottesville Violence Actually Plagiarize Michelle Obama?

My apologies ShadowSpear universe, I put time and effort into ensuring that posts on serious topics are accurate (to include Memes)

Won't happen again, and correction made in post.

Fuck.


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## Teufel (Aug 13, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> Likewise getting support from BLM or the New Black Panther Party should diminish your level of support, has that happened?
> 
> That's why these Nazi/KKK ass-bags are getting traction, BLM and Antifa have been getting away with bad behavior for months, and the folks in charge do nothing.



I don't think the groups are synonymous. BLM is a movement to protest the deaths of African American men at the hands of the police. I cannot speak for African Americans, as I am ethnically a mix of Hispanic; Caucasian; and Teufelhunden, but it appears that a large percentage of African Americans support BLM's basic premise: to reduce the number of black men killed in police shootings. Many of these supporters are fairly moderate, like our former President and numerous celebrities, and some are extremists who riot in the streets. The KKK, on the other hand, is a long standing organization that strives to promote the superiority of the Caucasian race at the expense of all others. I don't think many KKK members are moderate in their views nor do I think "white America" share their viewpoints. This is a big news story for numerous reasons but at the end of the day a few hundred racists from across the US, and a vehicular murderer, gathered in Virginia to demonstrate their irrelevance to the world on national media. The KKK, and any other hate racial hate group, have no place in modern society and the sooner they march towards extinction the better.


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## Kakashi66223 (Aug 13, 2017)

> Nothing in this world is more dangerous than sincere ignorance and conscientious stupidity.
> -Martin Luther King Jr.​


​
I feel a lot was edited out the news for shock and awe. And the loss of life of the young lady either way was tragic and undeniably wrong.


Peaceful protests do not block the road and there is a video of the 2 vehicles in front that are impeded blocked by protesters yelling, " Our streets!" Search JordanUhl. Lemme know if he takes it down. Here.

Before today I had the impression this horrible act occurred off the roadway.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 13, 2017)

Kakashi66223 said:


> ​
> I feel a lot was edited out the news for shock and awe. And the loss of life of the young lady either way was tragic and undeniably wrong.
> View attachment 19389
> 
> ...



Blocking streets isn't peaceful? Is marching? What is peaceful? Internet posts? Anything that aligns with your viewpoint? Come on man. This shit was disgusting. Don't rationalize it.


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## amlove21 (Aug 13, 2017)

Tonight I had- just like the last couple nights- a couple responses for this thread. 

I deleted those responses and won't post what I thought tonight, either. 

Americans should not die, or be injured, during a protest whether one agrees with their reason for protesting or not. 

This act of terrorism is abhorrent. There is no set of circumstances that changes that. 

RIP to those killed, and it's a sad day for Charlottesville and America.


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## Kakashi66223 (Aug 14, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Blocking streets isn't peaceful? Is marching? What is peaceful? Internet posts? Anything that aligns with your viewpoint? Come on man. This shit was disgusting. Don't rationalize it.



I might have missed something, you might have read into... As I said, It is still tragic and undeniably wrong this happened. My previous post is pointing out a lot of local "wrongs" happened to get to this point that the news didn't mention. 

Blocking the streets is not only unlawful in many places you have to consciously object to your own personal safety  +doing so with distracted drivers and large vehicles. IMO should also be grounds for mental health intervention by state.  Thinking it's not peaceful if it's out of spite, meant to cost a person their job, family problems, distress by intimidation or battery. 

Again, tragic.

Respectfully I remind that my tone is neutral with every post. I don't gain anything by pushing anyones buttons. I'm pretty chill.

I urge, wait for all the facts, "There's always her side, his side of what happened, and What really happened." I'm not buying everything I see on Facebook or most MSM outlets. Internet echo chambers or realife,  doesn't matter--people for the past 20yrs have major issues and it is just getting worse as time goes on until respect is restored.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 14, 2017)

Everything I've been seeing says the guy driving that Challenger was a Nazi supporter. The video of him crashing into people, is pretty clear that it was intentional. He has been charged with 2nd degree murder.

As for the protesters in the streets, I agree 100%, if you are going to step out into the street, block traffic and disturb the flow of traffic, you should do so with the understanding that you are putting your life at risk. That doesn't excuse drivers from making every effort to operate their vehicle safely and with the publics safety in mind.

I saw a post on FB by a friend, who is claiming that these white nationalist  (Nazi fucks) is white America and proves American racism.  Uhhh, no. It proves that a few hundred ass holes still believe in ignorance and intolerance.  The same way I don't feel Antifa fucks represent all millennials or the left as a whole. Just because a few hundred assholes go out and act like assholes, doesn't mean we should be broad stroking everyone into a category.


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## Devildoc (Aug 14, 2017)

Teufel said:


> I don't think the groups are synonymous. BLM is a movement to protest the deaths of African American men at the hands of the police. I cannot speak for African Americans, as I am ethnically a mix of Hispanic; Caucasian; and Teufelhunden, but it appears that a large percentage of African Americans support BLM's basic premise: to reduce the number of black men killed in police shootings. Many of these supporters are fairly moderate, like our former President and numerous celebrities, and some are extremists who riot in the streets. The KKK, on the other hand, is a long standing organization that strives to promote the superiority of the Caucasian race at the expense of all others. I don't think many KKK members are moderate in their views nor do I think "white America" share their viewpoints. This is a big news story for numerous reasons but at the end of the day a few hundred racists from across the US, and a vehicular murderer, gathered in Virginia to demonstrate their irrelevance to the world on national media. The KKK, and any other hate racial hate group, have no place in modern society and the sooner they march towards extinction the better.



Of course they are not synonymous; the KKK started pro-white, violent, and racist and remains that way 150ish years later.  Their intent was nothing but to be anti-black (and eventually anti-others) whereas the BLM intent was to highlight and protest deaths of black men & women at the hands of the LE community.  Original intent aside, as other organizations have evolved and morphed (i.e., BLM & antifa, etc.), so have their tactics and _raison d'etre.  _So while not synonymous I think it fair to lump them under an umbrella of groups or off-shoots of groups who support violence as a means to achieve their goals.  Have your ideology, I don't care; but when you choose to be violent, it's a game-changer.

This whole event saddens me and sickens me.  I loathe the KKK and _any_ organization that supports promoting any singular group to the derision or devaluation of another.  And as much as I really understand the desire to march to defend removing monuments, I knew in my gut that Saturday had the potential to end up bad.

I was not around in the 60s during the significant portions of the civil rights movement, I do remember vividly the Greensboro (NC) Massacre:  Greensboro massacre - Wikipedia.  So anytime I hear of a "peaceful protest" or a march planned, unfortunately, what happened Saturday I come to expect.


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## AWP (Aug 14, 2017)

Hate is hate. I don't care where they started, but where they are now. History matters for some arguments, but not for others? Nah, fuck that. Hate is hate.


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## Devildoc (Aug 14, 2017)

...nevermind....was going to post something but I cannot verify its veracity....


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## BloodStripe (Aug 14, 2017)

American Tourist Punched For Giving Nazi Salute In Germany


HAHAHAHAHAHA! Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 14, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> American Tourist Punched For Giving Nazi Salute In Germany
> 
> 
> HAHAHAHAHAHA! Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.



I would have to imagine the average German has little patience with such stupidity.  To add, the Chinese too?  Really?

<from the article>  Earlier this month, two Chinese tourists were arrested and charged after photographing themselves doing Nazi salutes in front of the Reichstag in Berlin. They were later freed after posting a 500 Euro bail.


----------



## Kheenbish (Aug 14, 2017)

Both sides are pathetic, all I see is a bunch of uneducated morons larping over idiotic ideologies. I can't even draft an ounce of respect for either side. 

"Grab your war shields and lvl 67 death wands, it's time to protest".


----------



## Ranger Psych (Aug 14, 2017)

VIDEO: Protesters Attacked Charlottesville Driver's Car With Baseball Bat

So no throttle or erratic driving until vehicle was attacked....  whats the right move when LE told you to disperse and you are attempting to leave peacefully then are attacked in your vehicle by a mob.....


----------



## Gunz (Aug 14, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> *EDIT*:  This meme is inaccurate, I regret posting it.



Mountain Climbers, ready, begin.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 14, 2017)

Leader of neo-Nazi group linked to Charlottesville attack was a US marine

This fucking piece of shit. He's no brother of mine.


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 14, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> VIDEO: Protesters Attacked Charlottesville Driver's Car With Baseball Bat
> 
> So no throttle or erratic driving until vehicle was attacked....  whats the right move when LE told you to disperse and you are attempting to leave peacefully then are attacked in your vehicle by a mob.....



Yeah the fact that he was standing with the NEo-Nazis earlier in the day is also a huge factor. Would you drive erratically on the way to an attack?


----------



## RackMaster (Aug 14, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah the fact that he was standing with the NEo-Nazis earlier in the day is also a huge factor. Would you drive erratically on the way to an attack?



It's a "plausible" defence, either way.  The POS needs to rot for what he did but this video can and most likely will be used as a defence.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Aug 14, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah the fact that he was standing with the NEo-Nazis earlier in the day is also a huge factor. Would you drive erratically on the way to an attack?


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 14, 2017)

He's got a history of violence. While his car may have been hit with a baseball bat first, we don't know what his intent was. He very well may have been driving down that road to run them over and he was only first attacked out of pure luck.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 14, 2017)

I'm sure more will come out, but he would have to prove his car was attacked prior to running into that crowd. And if that was the case, I can definitely see some defense to the 2nd degree murder charge, possibly an involuntary manslaughter charge would be more suited, etc.

He is still a racist asshole, however, and I doubt any jury let's him walk.


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 14, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> View attachment 19394



You sure about when those pictures were taken? Before vs after he hit the people?

Seeing the carnage all around makes me think it was after. 

Also I don't think anyone ever said the AntiFas people were there to peacefully protest. They were there to forcefully and violently confront white supremacists...


----------



## Ranger Psych (Aug 14, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I'm sure more will come out, but he would have to prove his car was attacked prior to running into that crowd. And if that was the case, I can definitely see some defense to the 2nd degree murder charge, possibly an involuntary manslaughter charge would be more suited, etc.
> 
> He is still a racist asshole, however, and I doubt any jury let's him walk.



Umm, there's video proof that his vehicle was attacked before hammer down occured.


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 14, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> Umm, there's video proof that his vehicle was attacked before hammer down occured.



So this was self defense? Could you clarify your position here for me? 

I'm not meaning to be smug or an asshole, I want to know what you are saying.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 14, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> If you are down there to protest on either side you are probably an asshole, a drama queen wanting attention, or to "be part of the action."
> 
> Most protesters nowadays can go eat a bag of dicks. Most of these shitbags do it just so they have something to post on social media to give their worthless lives some degree of relevance or interest.  That includes the BLM folks who block highways, and the over-the-top righties dressed in their airsoft gear.
> 
> ...



So this photo was taken back in July. In C'ville still, but at a different fuck stick get together.


----------



## Kraut783 (Aug 14, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Also I don't think anyone ever said the AntiFas people were there to peacefully protest. They were there to forcefully and violently confront white supremacists...



Antifa is there to confront everyone....if there is a counter protest to...anything, there they are. We are now having protest and counterprotesters here in Dallas this Saturday...the Antifa group here will cause any peaceful protest to go straight to hell... fast. They are aggressive and confrontational from word go....and cause public and private property damage...for really no reason.

I have had to deal with these guys twice now, both times the counterprotester group they were "supporting" did not want them there.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 14, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> Umm, there's video proof that his vehicle was attacked before hammer down occured.



That still wouldn't excuse him from smashing through a crowd.  I get the point your making, it's a fucked up situation. However, it's pretty clear he is a Nazi supporter, according to his prior school teacher and mother. It's also unclear, why he was driving down that particular street. I would think any DA worth their salt would be able to prove that, this wasn't a self-defense reaction, as he is the one who put himself into that situation,  and two, didn't hit the person who struck his car, but speed into a crowed.

I can see manslaughter, possibly involuntary manslaughter. But if there is any footage of him making death threats, any social media of death threats. He is toast...as he should be, because again, he is a racist asshole, who plowed into 20 people, injuring 19 and killing 1.

My $.02


----------



## Ranger Psych (Aug 15, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> So this was self defense? Could you clarify your position here for me?
> 
> I'm not meaning to be smug or an asshole, I want to know what you are saying.



You are attending an event
regardless of orientation or decorum
which while being planned months in advance and has court orders to enforce that said event can occur
which then has a mayor deem it an unlawful assembly on the part of the element that you are attending with
which then causes law enforcement to cause dispersal of the crowd you are with
with the only legal egress direction being through the unlawful, unapproved through legal process, counter-assembly consisting of armed belligerents
and your vehicle is attacked

What are your courses of action?

Reverse the rig towards law enforcement and be arrested, vehicle impounded, etc etc?
Throw it in park and pull a Chuck Yeager, hoping they don't notice you hopping in the ditch after you stomp the E-brake?
Huddle in the vehicle while it's bashed up, with only a easily shattered couple panes of glass being between you and a bat-wielding mob?
Assault through the force assaulting you?

There's zero good answers to the situation. He chose to defend himself as his property in which he was currently contained, was being attacked.

Is he a shithead at an apparent glance? yep... guess what, so is all of humanity if you take the appropriate snippets of existence. Regardless of how much you dislike his viewpoint, he was (I am assuming, as I'm not bored/autistic enough to pore over all videos available to see what type of participant he was in the event) obeying the law up until the point he was attacked.

We also, even with new alternative viewpoints, have no honest full, uncut, footage of the lead-up to that incident.

If Johnny Hotrod had intended to attack the crowd outright, at least from the new viewpoint I posted he had plenty of space to get a run that would have got him straight through that crowd in one shot with a challenger.

Come on dude, I know you've got a near-terminal case of white guilt but spare lambasting me or anyone else from your typical self-implied moral high ground you dawdle around on the regular.


----------



## SpitfireV (Aug 15, 2017)

The only way out is to drive your car through a protest? Where was everyone else driving? And even if it's so, wouldn't a better idea be to leave and come back later for your car?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 15, 2017)

Still waiting for Wes Bellamy to resign...


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Aug 15, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> He's got a history of violence. While his car may have been hit with a baseball bat first, we don't know what his intent was. He very well may have been driving down that road to run them over and he was only first attacked out of pure luck.



Yeah, his history is pretty checkered with an obsession with Hitler and anything Nazi related. His mom is disabled and wheelchair bound, and the coward went after her with a knife.

Man accused of ramming car into crowd was previously accused of beating his mother

He should have rented a car for his drive into the crowd, and not used his own vehicle.

ETA. I'm sure that in his mind, he did something heroic for his cause. It probably did not take too much time to talk him into driving into the middle of the protest.


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 15, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> The only way out is to drive your car through a protest? Where was everyone else driving? And even if it's so, wouldn't a better idea be to leave and come back later for your car?


Assumes they wouldn't have beat the shit out of him.


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 15, 2017)

Let's say similar events happened in Paris, and the driver was a Muslim, after the event, it is found the driver had ties to an extremist organization. Do we say it is self defense, do we say that is his legal right, or do we condemn the actions of a cowardly piece of shit immediately?

I know what would happen in one of those cases, and I guess we are finding out what would happen in the other.


----------



## SpitfireV (Aug 15, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> Assumes they wouldn't have beat the shit out of him.



You're assuming there was no other way out. I'm not really making any assumptions.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 15, 2017)

Sad really, that the Tiki Torch company took a stronger stance against these groups than our President....

Tiki torch manufacturer president 'appalled' at protesters

_W.C. Bradley Co. President and CEO Marc Olivie told the Columbus Ledger-Enquirer on Monday that the Columbus-based company's staff was "appalled and saddened" that the torches were "used by people who promote bigotry and hatred."_


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 15, 2017)




----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 15, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Let's say similar events happened in Paris, and the driver was a Muslim, after the event, it is found the driver had ties to an extremist organization. Do we say it is self defense, do we say that is his legal right, or do we condemn the actions of a cowardly piece of shit immediately?
> 
> I know what would happen in one of those cases, and I guess we are finding out what would happen in the other.



I don't think anyone is taking that Nazi lovers side. I sure as fuck am not, but like every thing else, people are analyzing the situation. We have done this many times on many different situations.  The key factor being @Ranger Psych finding a video, of the shit bags car being attacked prior to driving into the crowd. That changes things in a legal sense, doesn't mean that racist fuck is innocent, or guilt free. 

I don't know his thought process, and it will come down to what his defense can prove vs what the prosecution and prove. Was this premeditated, did drive down that street, in the hope of being attacked so that he could reacts as he did? 

At the same point, as you point out, it truly doesn't matter, the shit bird is obviously responsible for the death of one person and the injuries of 19 others. The big question is to what level of severity was his crime.

That said, with his vehicle being struck with a bat prior to his attack on the crowd, it becomes a bit harder to claim it as a terrorist attack.

Again this is all just technicality discussion, nobody is advocating for racist Nazi supporters getting away with driving into crowds. I personally hope they hang the bastard.


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 15, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I don't think anyone is taking that Nazi lovers side. I sure as fuck am not, but like every thing else, people are analyzing the situation. We have done this many times on many different situations.  The key factor being @Ranger Psych finding a video, of the shit bags car being attacked prior to driving into the crowd. That changes things in a legal sense, doesn't mean that racist fuck is innocent, or guilt free.
> 
> I don't know his thought process, and it will come down to what his defense can prove vs what the prosecution and prove. Was this premeditated, did drive down that street, in the hope of being attacked so that he could reacts as he did?
> 
> ...



I understand that. I'm not calling anyone here a Nazi sympathizer or of being sympathetic to him personally. If that is how it is coming across that is not what is meant.

However, whether his vehicle was struck or not the answer is not Fullthrottle down into another vehicle and a crowd of people.

We have a recent surge in using vehicles as weapons of terror abroad now it has been being done, and now it was done here.

That video that was shown as him being attacked, we don't know the context. Maybe he was saying some inflammatory shit out his window, maybe that bat(if we know that is what was swung) didn't connect. You honestly can't tell when he started accelerating in relation to the swing.

I'm not sure how me condemning this has anything to do with my "white guilt". I also don't see how this has anything to do with BLM.


----------



## 81FO (Aug 15, 2017)

Muppet said:


> Fuck them all. As I said on facebook, in short:
> 
> BLM, Nazi/KKK/white nationalists, Antifa....all fucking jerk offs.
> 
> ...




Amen!


----------



## CDG (Aug 15, 2017)

So COA 1 for me is to stay away from these types of things in the first place. People generally fucking suck these days, and people  on either side look for any excuse to use violence. That being said, the fact that the driver has white supremacist ties is not what's at issue here. If I am in a soft skinned vehicle, and that vehicle has multiple angry people around it who start smashing it with bats, then driving through them is absolutely a proportional response. Any reasonable person would fear for their safety in that situation, and your options are extremely limited. We need more facts to determine the exact sequence of events. Either way, it appeared as though some are attempting to justify the attack on his vehicle by theorizing he was saying inflammatory statements out his window. Let's assume that is right. Does this justify his car being smashed with bats? 

Secondly,  if this has nothing to do with BLM, it most certainly has nothing to do with terrorist affiliated personnel utilizing vehicles in attacks elsewhere. Why would that even warrant an introduction  into the discussion?


----------



## 81FO (Aug 15, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I'm going to sit back and watch, then take on the winners. The way I see it, it's just a bunch mentally ill people running around doing retarded shit. Antifa are a bunch of millennial pussies that have no fucking clue what they are asking for. KKK, Nazi, skinheads or whatever they are calling themselves these days, are just as fucking stupid. I say we let them both kill off the masses and than we kill whoever is left.
> 
> I mean fuck being all friendly and working out our differences.  Sometimes you just gotta do a reset. Kill off a few million,  send a clear as fuck message that we are all tired of your fuckery.
> 
> ...





LMFAO!!!! 

@Diamondback 2/2,  that's a roger!


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 15, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> VIDEO: Protesters Attacked Charlottesville Driver's Car With Baseball Bat



Trying to find out more is near impossible. The post from "Department of Memes" refers to a journalist named Taylor Lorenz who allegedly tweeted "Anyway several police officers at the station here think the guy running people down wasn’t malicious. They said the driver was scared".
There is no link to that twitter post. Attempting to find the post leads to a different, unrelated Taylor Lorenz. Googling "taylor lorenz twitter Charlottesville police officers" returns a 'sorry, that page does not exist' message from Twitter.
There's really nothing in the post on Department of Memes which should be characterized as proof.


----------



## Kakashi66223 (Aug 15, 2017)

Following the link in my first post on this thread and it would be easy to prove criminal mischief on the crowd. That video was buried because it shows a unedited account in the front of the vehicles prior to the incident.

Twitter

This is that link, I believe the lady that got ran over is seen (0:10-0:12)in this video as she stepped in front of the minivan  to take a picture using celphone not sure tho going on what was said about where she was when it all happened.

Again, If he takes it down let me know. BTW you can DL the Twitter video, hint hint.

Amazed at how many cameras where on scene but no complete video of that on YouTube, or being shared.


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 15, 2017)

So on this link, I'm not a twitter guy, it shows a longer version of the video @Ranger Psych posted. In it you can see how fast he was going before anything was swung at him. He was hauling ass, which may be why something(probably not a bat) was swung at him.

Twitter

Also, the street behind and in front of him was clear, makes it difficult to say he was in fear of his life... notice how he could easily back up a clear street?


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 15, 2017)

Still looking for corroboration. Found Taylor Lorenz' Twitter page, and her comments regarding what cops allegedly said about the driver.
Taylor Lorenz on Twitter

Unsure what that means. The comments following her post are interesting.


----------



## policemedic (Aug 15, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Let's say similar events happened in Paris, and the driver was a Muslim, after the event, it is found the driver had ties to an extremist organization. Do we say it is self defense, do we say that is his legal right, or do we condemn the actions of a cowardly piece of shit immediately?
> 
> I know what would happen in one of those cases, and I guess we are finding out what would happen in the other.



I understand where you're coming from, but the social climate and laws in Paris are radically different.


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 15, 2017)

policemedic said:


> I understand where you're coming from, but the social climate and laws in Paris are radically different.



For sure. 

My point was there is dramatic video of an event, where someone with an extremist background can be seen rapidly accelerating from a distance into a crowd of people. It seems to me that some are looking for any excuse other than that this was a terror attack, I just don't know why. Like @Diamondback 2/2 pointed out, I guess we are just hypothesizing, but the video evidence that he did this with little to no provocation is there...


----------



## Gunz (Aug 15, 2017)

My Daddy used to shoot Nazis. Guess he must've miss a few.


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 15, 2017)

Frank S. said:


> Still looking for corroboration. Found Taylor Lorenz' Twitter page, and her comments regarding what cops allegedly said about the driver.
> Taylor Lorenz on Twitter
> 
> Unsure what that means. The comments following her post are interesting.



Regardless of what those tweets say, the police are investigating a "premeditated" attack. I think they know what they are doing.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 15, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Regardless of what those tweets say, the police are investigating a "premeditated" attack. I think they know what they are doing.



What those tweets indicate is that the journalist posted off the cuff comments made on scene by cops who probably did not witness the actual incident, only the driver's reaction after the fact.
What they indicate is that once she realized her post was inflated into a conclusion intended to support what appears to be a fictional account of the incident, she took it down.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 15, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Regardless of what those tweets say, the police are investigating a "premeditated" attack. I think they know what they are doing.



Ah, because the police are always right...


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 15, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> My Daddy used to shoot Nazis. Guess he must've miss a few.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 15, 2017)

Someone supposedly said, in the age of the Internet there are no winners and no losers, only casualties...


----------



## policemedic (Aug 15, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> Ah, because the police are always right...


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 15, 2017)

policemedic said:


>



Police are humans. I don't expect them to be right all the time, but to think they are is foolish. It just isn't possible. Just like there are bad applies in the military, the reality is there are a few bad applies with badges. It wasn't meant to be a jab at those who walk the line, but rather a realistic comment. No matter how hard you and the majority of your brothers and sisters try, you all will not always get it right.


----------



## policemedic (Aug 15, 2017)

I was being sarcastic. I'm prone to that.


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 15, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> Ah, because the police are always right...



Obviously not. I just think it is funny that the police only seem to know what they are doing while doing things "we" agree with...


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 15, 2017)

I wouldn't say this was allowed...but it did go up, not verified: Log In or Sign Up to View

Original source is on twitter and linked in the gateway pundit: VIDEO=> Antifa Flag Raised Up Over Hennepin County Govt. Center in Solidarity with Charlottesville


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 15, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> View attachment 19404



You need a 30 round magazine to murder Americans who are exercising their Constitutional rights?


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 15, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> You need a 30 round magazine to murder Americans who are exercising their Constitutional rights?



It is a fucking meme. Lighten up.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Aug 15, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Jesus man it is a meme. Nazi's advocate for the extermination of races of people. We fought a war against them. Even I can see the humor in this meme.
> 
> Fucking A, this site gets lamer and lamer every goddamn day.



So when you or others get called on supporting something reprehensible, it's just a joke and people collectively should accept it?



In other news, here's how this shitshow all started


So when the legally assembled idiots were told (illegally) by the mayor that they were to disperse... after being peaceful the whole time... they were greeted at 2 choke points with the likes of this:











So who's the aggressor in this situation, hmm?

Oh wait, all the bats are just jokes.


----------



## racing_kitty (Aug 15, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> It is a fucking meme. Lighten up.





Marauder06 said:


> You need a 30 round magazine to murder Americans who are exercising their Constitutional rights?



But it's acceptable to meet and silence fascism with violence!  They were calling for violence, so why not? /sarc

Or is it?  That's been the prevailing logic I've heard from several people who are otherwise rational people.  

"It's okay to punch a Nazi."
"Displaying the Swastika is a call to violence.  Therefore, it's self-defense."
"They aren't protected by the First Amendment, because they're inciting violence.  Antifa/counter protesters/progressives are justified in beating them with rocks, sticks, Molotov cocktails, or whatever they have on hand."

Any of this sound familiar?


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 15, 2017)

racing_kitty said:


> But it's acceptable to meet and silence fascism with violence!  They were calling for violence, so why not? /sarc
> 
> Or is it?  That's been the prevailing logic I've heard from several people who are otherwise rational people.
> 
> ...



Not to me. Have you seen or heard me say that?


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 15, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> So when you or others get called on supporting something reprehensible, it's just a joke and people collectively should accept it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Ranger Psych said:


> So when you or others get called on supporting something reprehensible, it's just a joke and people collectively should accept it?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Called on supporting something reprehensible? Example?


----------



## Ranger Psych (Aug 15, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Called on supporting something reprehensible? Example?



Umm, shooting unarmed citizens exercising their constitutional rights?
Supporting attacking unarmed people attempting to comply with (illegal and right denying) police orders?


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 15, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> Umm, shooting unarmed citizens exercising their constitutional rights?
> Supporting attacking unarmed people attempting to comply with (illegal and right denying) police orders?



I supported that?


----------



## racing_kitty (Aug 15, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Not to me. Have you seen or heard me say that?



Unless you've legally changed your name to "Several People," then no.  I haven't seen or hear you say that.  However, I have a rather large number of left leaning friends and acquaintances, and I have definitely heard the logic in person as well as seen it typed out for the ether to hold for posterity.  If you haven't heard it or read it in your circle of friends, then you've spent the right amount of time watching kitten videos on Facebook.  Good for you.

Meanwhile, I'm going to finish watching the Jimmy Buffett concert live stream.  Helluva lot better than this botched abortion.


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 15, 2017)

racing_kitty said:


> Unless you've legally changed your name to "Several People," then no.  I haven't seen or hear you say that.  However, I have a rather large number of left leaning friends and acquaintances, and I have definitely heard the logic in person as well as seen it typed out for the ether to hold for posterity.  If you haven't heard it or read it in your circle of friends, then you've spent the right amount of time watching kitten videos on Facebook.  Good for you.
> 
> Meanwhile, I'm going to finish watching the Jimmy Buffett concert live stream.  Helluva lot better than this botched abortion.



Sorry I'm having multiple arguments, some of which are personally directed. Apologize for the confusion.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 15, 2017)

racing_kitty said:


> then you've spent the right amount of time watching kitten videos on Facebook



Speaking of kitten videos on the internet....






.
.
.
.
.
Okay, back to anger, frustration, and all that stuff....


.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Aug 15, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> I supported that?



You defended a meme with direct implication of murdering american citizens.  Variable definitions within the leftist agenda can be confusing, even for the indoctrinated, it seems.


----------



## AWP (Aug 15, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> That video that was shown as him being attacked, we don't know the context. Maybe he was saying some inflammatory shit out his window, maybe that bat(if we know that is what was swung) didn't connect. You honestly can't tell when he started accelerating in relation to the swing.



Inflammatory speech doesn't give someone the right to attack another person. Threatening comments could open the door for a self-defense claim, but hate speech is protected. I think it is disgusting, but hate speech is legally protected.

He could drive through the crowd dropping dozens of n-bombs and become the "victim" when attacked. I see little difference here than with that assclown George Zimmerman. Here's a turd who IMO provoked the situation and then killed a man, all within the legal confines of FL law. For better or worse, being a shithead in America is legally protected. Until someone can prove that guy's intent, he is innocent. Both sides like to bring up that last bit until it doesn't suit their belief system or narrative, but we're in America and that's how it works.

I'm not lecturing you, just pointing out a few things that are generally lost in this whole abortion of a story. Once again we've split along political lines and little things like the law and truth are irrelevant. Disgusting.


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 15, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> You defended a meme with direct implication of murdering american citizens.  Variable definitions within the leftist agenda can be confusing, even for the indoctrinated, it seems.



Oh come the fuck on. I called it a meme. It is a joke. Despite my liberal tendencies even I can take a joke. 

I do like that you have shifted from whatever it was you were arguing in regards to the actual topic, to only whatever I am posting. I can handle some personal attacks on my "white guilt". 

What I would love is for you to continue your earlier position in light of the video I posted earlier. Tell me this was somehow self defense. Explain to the membership how a man accelerating down an unblocked unchallenged street is somehow within his rights and his only COA.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 15, 2017)

Frank S. said:


> Someone supposedly said, in the age of the Internet there are no winners and no losers, only casualties...



I so agree with this.  Without an internet, the average person would go on with their day thinking about the things they think about.
They would come home from work, watch those 'crazy protesters' in Virginia on the 6 o'clock news, and then read a story about it in the paper the next day.
On Friday, New Week or Time would come out and they'd get a deep dive into what is going on while they waited for their haircuts.

Without an internet, the average person would not feel so tied to what is happening every moment of every day.   My mom recently retired and now she 'surfs' all day long, she is a nervous wreck and never used to be.

There are times I miss depending on Tom Brokaw for my news, and the days when 20/20 and 60 minutes being must see TV.


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 15, 2017)

AWP said:


> Inflammatory speech doesn't give someone the right to attack another person. Threatening comments could open the door for a self-defense claim, but hate speech is protected. I think it is disgusting, but hate speech is legally protected.
> 
> He could drive through the crowd dropping dozens of n-bombs and become the "victim" when attacked. I see little difference here than with that assclown George Zimmerman. Here's a turd who IMO provoked the situation and then killed a man, all within the legal confines of FL law. For better or worse, being a shithead in America is legally protected. Until someone can prove that guy's intent, he is innocent. Both sides like to bring up that last bit until it doesn't suit their belief system or narrative, but we're in America and that's how it works.
> 
> I'm not lecturing you, just pointing out a few things that are generally lost in this whole abortion of a story. Once again we've split along political lines and little things like the law and truth are irrelevant. Disgusting.



Great. It doesn't matter now. The gif @Ranger Psych posted has been supplanted by the video in context. The video of the driver accelerating at least  a whole block before crashing into a crowd of people...

My OP was hypothetical. The reality is that some dude probably accelerated a very powerful(though underlyingly shitty car) into a crowd of people with no provocation and with prior planning.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 15, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I so agree with this.  Without an internet, the average person would go on with their day thinking about the things they think about.
> They would come home from work, watch those 'crazy protesters' in Virginia on the 6 o'clock news, and then read a story about it in the paper the next day.
> On Friday, New Week or Time would come out and they'd get a deep dive into what is going on while they waited for their haircuts.
> 
> ...



I knew someone years ago who'd play the I Ching compulsively, throwing dice until he got "close" enough to an answer he wanted. Fucking non-stop and about any little bullshit thing. That's what most of the net is, reading the tea leaves until you can't see the pot anymore.


----------



## Dame (Aug 15, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Speaking of kitten videos on the internet....
> 
> 
> 
> ...


Damn you. Now I can't stop watching that.


----------



## AWP (Aug 15, 2017)

I don't know how many of you can feel the low rumble that precedes a volcanic eruption, but some of us can when we read this thread. Some of y'all should avoid a sacrifice and dial it back a bit. Stukas are expensive to operate, but within this FY's budget.


----------



## 81FO (Aug 15, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Speaking of kitten videos on the internet....
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Hahahahahhaha! Nice!


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 15, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> You need a 30 round magazine to murder Americans who are exercising their Constitutional rights?



According to the Commonwealth it was an illegal gathering.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 15, 2017)

policemedic said:


> I was being sarcastic. I'm prone to that.



Cheers!


----------



## Ranger Psych (Aug 16, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Oh come the fuck on. I called it a meme. It is a joke. Despite my liberal tendencies even I can take a joke.
> 
> I do like that you have shifted from whatever it was you were arguing in regards to the actual topic, to only whatever I am posting. I can handle some personal attacks on my "white guilt".
> 
> What I would love is for you to continue your earlier position in light of the video I posted earlier. Tell me this was somehow self defense. Explain to the membership how a man accelerating down an unblocked unchallenged street is somehow within his rights and his only COA.



Accelerating a whole block? Maybe you need to watch your own video again, as the challenger comes to a COMPLETE stop in front of the bollards. Approaching in an investigative, fact finding manner is better than blatantly inserting the narrative you would prefer to have describe the event.

He was travelling at the most common legal speed limit in urban areas (25mph) at which point he stopped approx 40ft from the closest protester directly in front of him, with the individual who swung at his taillight approx 10ft to his 10 o'clock, and otherwise surrounded by protestors (That all of the event attendees had been attacked by previously) from his 8-4, being generous.  The vehicle actually squats forward twice then settles rearward in a manner consistent with tapping of brakes, with brake lights when viewed in higher resolution. 
 



The only constant forward acceleration occurs when the first individual completely visible begins his swing at the vehicle.

The vehicle also had already taken damage from impacts, most likely what he originally hit 25 in a relatively clear area to avoid. Rear bumper and brake light surround has damage which is not indicative of impact through normal vehicular operation:

 





NavyBuyer said:


> According to the Commonwealth it was an illegal gathering.



According to Federal court, it was a permitted gathering.  I didn't know State's rights trumped federal. Thought we figured that one out in the era of the individual who's likeness is captured in the park's statue?


Other perspectives, ones it seems that people want to avoid through cognitive dissonance:

Here’s How Virginia State Police Facilitated Violence At Charlottesville
The Mayor of Charlottesville Caused 3 Deaths — Not Richard Spencer
Why Were The Police Held Back In Charlottesville?


----------



## 81FO (Aug 16, 2017)

The tragic irony of it, in my opinion, is "antifa" is an abbreviation for anti-facism yet every public gathering, protest, demonstration where "antifa" is bussed in violence & property destruction is the mission not an unintended result. "Antifa" uses the same tactics history shows were used by past facist regimes. I mean the nationalist fascist party (Moussolini) , maoists , in this century taliban , daesh / isil.... "antifa" is a freakin' blinking neon sign of contradiction!!

Looks like a turd, smells like a turd, its a fucking Turd!! Sorry I'm not eating that shit sandwich!

The question has been posed in referance to the guy who drove his car into the people on the street "Was it premeditated?" That is an unknown until the investigation is completed. If it was he deserves to be hit with civil rights violations & a terroism charge. What is known, violence was / is premeditated and frankly a forgone conclusion when "antifa" is involved, I call that terrorism!


I'm probably outta line here but the whole "movement" in my opnion has parallels to history I learned about....


Tearing down statues / monuments ok, but where does it stop? The national media has this all twisted up like it is a widespread "movement", when truth be told it is two fringe radical groups, politically irrelavant (who do not represent the majority of USA citizens) squaring off against each other.

We can't let this insanity create a divide between the rest of the nation, level heads must prevail. Can't find the exact quote made by SECDEF but the take away is the National discourse is dangerous & lacks "friendliness"...

Everyone has heard it & knows it, "You wipe out the past you are doomed to repeat it."

*For clarity I do not condone nor support nazis, facists, white supremacist, communism / socialism.*


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 16, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> Other perspectives, ones it seems that people want to avoid through cognitive dissonance:
> 
> Here’s How Virginia State Police Facilitated Violence At Charlottesville
> The Mayor of Charlottesville Caused 3 Deaths — Not Richard Spencer
> Why Were The Police Held Back In Charlottesville?


Ah yes, Wes Bellamy, the Black Supremacist who calls every single person that wants him to be held accountable a racist.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 16, 2017)

Meanwhile, with regard to this protest in Durham, NC, the police have done their job.  They arrested one.*

*In fairness, there may be more arrests.  The LE community is being excoriated on their non-response.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 16, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> Meanwhile, with regard to this protest in Durham, NC, the police have done their job. They arrested one.*



I am pleased to read this.

It really bothered my to see statues in the United States of America being toppled like those of Saddam Husain.

Erasing history does not change it, and not every statue in the South is a positive acknowledgment of slavery.


----------



## RackMaster (Aug 16, 2017)

And the witch hunt has gone violent... now they're attacking people who weren't even there.

Man Stabbed By Antifa Mob Outside His Home For Not Condemning 'Nazis' Hard Enough - Big League Politics


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 16, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> And the witch hunt has gone violent... now they're attacking people who weren't even there.
> 
> Man Stabbed By Antifa Mob Outside His Home For Not Condemning 'Nazis' Hard Enough - Big League Politics



Not in any local newspaper, based off a Facebook post? Only source is Infowars, 4Chan and Big League Politics?  Let's see if there is a snopes on this one in the next few days.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 16, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Not in any local newspaper, based off a Facebook post? Only source is Infowars, 4Chan and Big League Politics?  Let's see if there is a snopes on this one in the next few days.



I would like to see two-source verification, too, but Snopes is as bad as most others these days....


----------



## racing_kitty (Aug 16, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Not in any local newspaper, based off a Facebook post? Only source is Infowars, 4Chan and Big League Politics?  Let's see if there is a snopes on this one in the next few days.


 
The alleged victim appears in a USA Today article. There's nothing in any local rags or national garbage saying he was attacked.


----------



## 1FastSUV (Aug 16, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I have a few things to do in C'ville Monday. So, do I go with:
> 
> Shaved head?
> Normal haircut?
> ...



Don't shave the sides and leave the top long or you'll have to apologize for being racist. :wall:
http://a.msn.com/0B/en-us/AAqai2H?ocid=sf


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 16, 2017)

Some good commentary: The Group That Got Ignored in Charlottesville


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 16, 2017)

See kids, and this is why you don't post "everything" to Facebook.  I'm sure your moms and dads are VERY proud that you've made international news.  

This is just a few miles from where I live....

Minnesota diner fires two workers pictured in Nazi garb | Daily Mail Online


----------



## RackMaster (Aug 16, 2017)

racing_kitty said:


> The alleged victim appears in a USA Today article. There's nothing in any local rags or national garbage saying he was attacked.



It happened last night and apparently he has previous drug charges.  So I'm not sure if there'll be a police report or even if the local press would care.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 16, 2017)

AWP said:


> I don't know how many of you can feel the low rumble that precedes a volcanic eruption, but some of us can when we read this thread. Some of y'all should avoid a sacrifice and dial it back a bit. Stukas are expensive to operate, but within this FY's budget.



I would have given cross-thread points if not for the poor sourcing of aircraft, given the subject matter of said thread.

Anyway. Wheels up yet?


----------



## AWP (Aug 16, 2017)

Frank S. said:


> I would have given cross-thread points if not for the poor sourcing of aircraft, given the subject matter of said thread.
> 
> Anyway. Wheels up yet?



Long story behind those a/c. I don't know if you were around when the Stuka became the popular CAS platform of choice for me.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 16, 2017)

_I'm Stuka on you_ -- Lionel Ritchie, 1984


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 16, 2017)

So the government in Balitmore overnight removed confederate monuments unceremoniously, SJWs started a petition to remove a monument that stood over the graves of confederate soldiers in Hollywood, the Daughters of the Confederacy chose to remove it.  And now the shitheads at Task and Purpose have joined the war on the Confederacy.  No more nuance allowed in the study of American History I suppose.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 16, 2017)

Here's 9 hours, I say Nine Hours, of *kittens purring*...


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 16, 2017)

San Antonio had a right wing protest last weekend.

Cops arrested one person and kept the two groups apart.

No drama.

I don't like our Chief of Police, but he did a good job keeping the peace.

VSP and Charlottesville PD could take crowd control lessons from us.


----------



## Muppet (Aug 17, 2017)

Frank S. said:


> Here's 9 hours, I say Nine Hours, of *kittens purring*...



That's fucking what I need.

M.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 17, 2017)

Anything CAIR is for, I am immediately skeptical of.

Requesting the Removal of All Confederate Memorials, Flags, Street Names, and Symbols from Public Spaces and Property


----------



## RackMaster (Aug 17, 2017)

For everyone supporting Antifa and well anyone that violently riots... er I mean counter protest.

We Asked an Ethicist if It's OK to Punch Nazis in the Face


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 17, 2017)

I have a different theory, I think we all should punch people in the face for saying and doing stupid shit. There needs to be a consequence for stupid, assholes running around acting like Nazis, should get punched in the face. Those BLM fucks who called for cops to be killed and stomped on the American flag should have been punched in the face. Those Antifa fucks, need their fucking heads kicked in for the shit they have been doing.

People generally don't know they are being an asshole, until someone calls them out for being an asshole. That generally comes in some form of a consequences, loss of friends, getting your ass kicked, locked up, etc.

I'm all for people being able to demonstrate, protest, spew out their stupid message that nobody really cares about. But when people decide to fuck them up for that stupid shit, I feel no pity.

That said, these dumbasses do not represent the American people,  they are just pockets of mentally ill people doing retarded shit. If the BLM fucks wouldn't have doing their retarded shit for the past few years, you would have this counter of disgruntled retarded white people. If Trump would have toned it down during the election, you wouldn't have these retarded Antifa fucks running around doing their stupid shit.

What we haven't seen yet, is the everyday working American come out and say enough is enough. When that happens, I think clubs and bats, and cars driving into crowds, will look like child's play. People are getting fed up with this bullshit, I know I am, and this is most definitely not how I want my kids inheriting this country.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 17, 2017)

So I drove through Dade City, FL today on my way back from the dump...a quaint, quiet little town...and there was an Anti-Nazi rally going on in front of the courthouse. About 25 middle-aged and elderly people holding signs that said stuff like:

NO NAZIS IN OUR TOWN
PEACE
STOP THE HATE Etc. etc...

Only there were no Nazis. Nobody. It was a rally against non-existent Nazis.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 17, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I have a different theory, _*I think we all shoulf punch people in the face for saying and doing stupid shit.*_ There needs to be a consequence for stupid, assholes running around acting like Nazis, should get punched in the face. Those BLM fucks who called for cops to be killed and stomped on the American flag should have been punched in the face. Those Antifa fucks, need their fucking heads kicked in for the shit they have been doing.
> 
> People generally don't know they are being an asshole, until someone calls them out for being an asshole. That generally comes in some form of a consequences, loss of friends, getting your ass kicked, locked up, etc.
> 
> ...




I LOL'd at this because my wife told me that she and her co-workers have a jar at work and whenever a manager does or says something stupid everybody has to put money in the jar. And there's a lot of money in it.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 17, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> ......Only there were no Nazis. Nobody. It was a rally against non-existent Nazis.



Is that like the ol' "if a tree fell in the forest" thing?  If you hold an anti-Nazi rally but no Nazis were there, was it _really_ a rally?

But non-existent Nazis are the best kind....


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 17, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> So I drove through Dade City, FL today on my way back from the dump...a quaint, quiet little town...and there was an Anti-Nazi rally going on in front of the courthouse. About 25 middle-aged and elderly people holding signs that said stuff like:
> 
> NO NAZIS IN OUR TOWN
> PEACE
> ...



Yes I have, and that is unfortunate with regards to that history. 

I will say I have always been against the display of the confederate battle flag, by any government. So much so, that ripped a young Specialist from one end on down the other for having one flying in the back of his truck on post. That's is a defeated battle flag, and outside of ceremonial remembrance, has no business being displayed on anything that is government, IMHO.

I also understand that that flag has become a symbol of oppression for black Americans. And because I understand that, I think it's disrespectful to display it. However, I also understand people have the right to do so, and if they choose to, so be it. Still think it's disrespectful and IMO makes them an asshole.

These monuments? Yeah I think they should be restricted to museum's and burial grounds. Every damn town doesn't need a Robert E. Lee high school, or monuments of defeated confederate generals in their down town squares.

I am by no means saying we should erase our history, but if it's a reminder of oppression for our fellow black Americans, than I see no reason why we shouldn't move them to places of historic nature and remove them from the day to day bullshit.

Fuck it is 2017, that war was 150 years ago, it seems a bit silly to me that this is even an issue.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 17, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Yes I have, and that is unfortunate with regards to that history.
> 
> I will say I have always been against the display of the confederate battle flag, by any government. So much so, that ripped a young Specialist from one end on down the other for having one flying in the back of his truck on post. That's is a defeated battle flag, and outside of ceremonial remembrance, has no business being displayed on anything that is government, IMHO.
> 
> ...



OK, point taken.  But where does it end?  Jefferson had slaves; do they sell Monticello for reparations?  You see where I am going here.

At some point on the slide someone has to say "enough is enough."*

Edited to add, I don't know where that 'line' is....


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 17, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> OK, point taken.  But where does it end?  Jefferson had slaves; do they sell Monticello for reparations?  You see where I am going here.
> 
> At some point on the slide someone has to say "enough is enough."


Here's what Robert E. Lee thought about Confederate monuments

I get your point, however, as it applies to the confederate states of America,  a rebellion and insurrection that was defeated by our current form of government vs a founding fathers of our nation, it's a bit of an odd comparison to relate. Where does it stop, where we meet in the middle of respect and dignity for our fellow Americans.

Look I'm a southern boy, with southern roots. I've lived in Texas my whole life, and I've seen every aspect of racial ignorance and intolerance.  I am well studied on the civil war, and understanding the significance of preserving that history. The confederacy was defeated, they don't get a say in how that history is written, especially as relates to monuments.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 17, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> But where does it end?  [...] At some point on the slide someone has to say "enough is enough."*
> 
> Edited to add, I don't know where that 'line' is....



_If_ there was a line, _if_ the buck stopped anywhere, no one would get elected or manage to remain in office.

All we have is volleyball. Don't let it land at your feet.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 17, 2017)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Here's what Robert E. Lee thought about Confederate monuments
> 
> I get your point, however, as it applies to the confederate states of America,  a rebellion and insurrection that was defeated by our current form of government vs a founding fathers of our nation, it's a bit of an odd comparison to relate. Where does it stop, where we meet in the middle of respect and dignity for our fellow Americans.
> 
> Look I'm a southern boy, with southern roots. I've lived in Texas my whole life, and I've seen every aspect of racial ignorance and intolerance.  I am well studied on the civil war, and understanding the significance of preserving that history. The confederacy was defeated, they don't get a say in how that history is written, especially as relates to monuments.



Yes, I hear you. I am born and bred in North Carolina.  It is a contentious issue to be sure, and I appreciate civil discourse on it, and with regards to The Monuments I can see both sides. I do think it is a slippery slope, and like I said, I don't know where the best compromise lies.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 17, 2017)

It is possible that within the context of these four years begun on January 20, this will not turn out to be just another protest.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 17, 2017)

Confederate Soldiers are considered US Veterans by public law.  So can we educate the populace correctly.  Cause sucked, but not all of the men were evil.  Like fuck.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 17, 2017)

Wow. Nine pages. Just goes to show how strongly we feel about that particular small shard of the mirror we hold individually.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 17, 2017)

And, just like that, all the world's problems were solved. ETA: Reads the best if you do so in Morgan Freemans voice.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 17, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> And, just like that, all the world's problems were solved.
> View attachment 19427



At least, this happened in daylight...
I remember watching on my tee-vee, I spewed Coors lite and flaming Doritos in excitement...


----------



## AWP (Aug 17, 2017)

A few weeks ago nobody gave enough of a damn to have this discussion.

In a few weeks no one will give enough of a damn to have this discussion.

Right or wrong, this whole thing is absurd because it matters so much that we kick it to the back burner (the same as any other topic) after a few weeks? GTFO, people have collective ADD on social issues. This will bun out, you'll find something else to hate or support or whatever, and then we'll have another fucked up thread that loses its relevancy after a brief period in the spotlight.
----

*Speaking as a member of the staff* (the above is AWP the person talking) some of you are being looked at. Not for your views, but your presentation and interaction. Your views? Whatever, we don't care. Some actions in this thread? They've gone beyond "passionate" and they haven't gone unnoticed.


----------



## Kakashi66223 (Aug 18, 2017)

Frank S. said:


> Wow. Nine pages. Just goes to show how strongly we feel about that particular small shard of the mirror we hold individually.



Absolutely.
I'm gonna assume we are actually railed on "guilt" viewed in the mirror. But just it's good to clear the air too and express feelings. Everyone has equity in their feelings.

I can bore you guys/gals with type, or meat and potatoes. Long story short, guilt is the WORST motivator. Just as the Psych Today points out,feelings of agony, grief , loniliness manifest in an individual because they might or have done an unacceptable act in the past or currently. Based on the individuals morals. An inflammatory response would be justified if someone was pawning feelings of guilt on somebody that are unjustified, it's just our wiring.

The thing is I consider myself regardless of my skin color, distant family ties to civil war (Union and Confederate) blameless, as I was not directly involved. I won't let another man or woman bother me with such foolishness, and entertaining them just adds fuel to the fire. I get it, it's hard to overlook this or another's hatred, but psychologically your bearing guilt _that you didn't do enough -_or- _something you didn't do_, when you shouldn't agonize over because it will not lead to satisfactory results.  And from what I understand guilt is cumulative, I'm not a psychologist just play one on the internet.



> If you don’t like the psychodynamic approach to guilt, perhaps you’ll find the cognitive explanation a bit more palatable. From a cognitive point of view, guilt is an emotion that people experience because they’re convinced they’ve caused harm. In cognitive theory, the thoughts cause the emotions. The guilt of emotion follows directly from the thought that you are responsible for someone else’s misfortune, whether or not this is the case. People who experience guilt on a chronic basis, according to the cognitive perspective, mistakenly suffer under the illusion that they have caused other people harm. Their negative emotion follows from their tendency to misinterpret what happens to them and not to question the logic of their conclusions. In cognitive therapy, treatment often involves teaching people to rid themselves of their “automatic thoughts” that they’ve caused others to suffer. People constantly plagued by guilt are also taught to recognize their “dysfunctional attitudes” so that they recognize when they’re going through such mental processes as catastrophizing (making the very worst of a bad situation) or overgeneralizing (believing that if one bad thing happened, many more must have as well).
> 
> In contrast to the psychodynamic view of guilt, the cognitive perspective gives the average person some clues for fixing the tendency to blame yourself for everything that goes wrong. According to the cognitive view, if you change your thoughts, you can change your emotions. Once you realize that you’re inaccurately seeing yourself as causing others to suffer, you can readjust your mental set and more realistically figure out your role in whatever grief came their way.
> 
> -Borrowed from Psychology Today





> You can decide or not whether you want to continue to make the sacrifices needed to help these individuals. However, it’s important to separate your desire to help from the guilt you fear will overwhelm you if you don’t. Acting out of guilt can only drain you further and ultimately make you a less effective helper.
> 
> -Borrowed from PT


The Definitive Guide to Guilt

If your being told you should feel guilty for something you didn't do it can be classified as mental abuse, especially in a domestic setting. No person of sound mind will ever try to convince you to feel unjust guilt.


Only thing that's teach-able that hasnt been touched IIRC is if you have personnel that is wanting to attend these "gatherings" from now on understand these can get out of hand rather quickly.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 18, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Confederate Soldiers are considered US Veterans by public law.  So can we educate the populace correctly.  *Cause sucked, but not all of the men were evil.  Like fuck*.



My great-grandfather fought for NC.  He was 16, I think, left the farm, fought for a couple years, went back.  He didn't fight for a cause; hell, in eastern NC at the time there were very few people who had slaves, and my great-grandfather and his family didn't even know anyone who had them (passed down via oral family history over the generations).


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 18, 2017)

AWP said:


> A few weeks ago nobody gave enough of a damn to have this discussion.
> 
> In a few weeks no one will give enough of a damn to have this discussion.
> 
> ...



I don't think it's the "people" as much as it is the media.  The MSM have gone from reporting stories to telling us what/how to think. _ They_ drive the narrative.  So when they drop it they are telling us it's no longer important.

I agree that it is absurd that for how many years no one--_NO ONE_--has mentioned one skinny word about this, until this weekend.  And now it's the cause for societal breakdown and civil strife?  Give me a fucking break.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 18, 2017)

Terry McAuliffe you carpetbagger, you need to go.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 18, 2017)

There is a rally today, here in Durham.  There was 'breaking news' on TV that the county and city government was shutting down offices for the day, advised people to take off early.  The news said the Nazi/KKK folks were supposed to be there but so far it's just a bunch of commies and peaceniks.  It does appear some BLM/Antifa people are lurking, but no trouble so far.


----------



## Grunt (Aug 18, 2017)

When government offices feel they have to shut down out of fear, that shows me that they are being "terrorized" and I find it repulsive to have to admit that.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 18, 2017)

Kakashi66223 said:


> Absolutely.
> I'm gonna assume we are actually railed on "guilt" viewed in the mirror.



Not just guilt, pride as well.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 18, 2017)

Agoge said:


> When government offices feel they have to shut down out of fear, that shows me that they are being "terrorized" and I find it repulsive to have to admit that.



It's weird here.  It's as if people don't know how to act or how to talk to anyone who looks different at risk of being called fill-in-the-blank.  One headline says "Protests in Durham turn into epic dance party."  But if you say "boo," it looks like they could rumble.

The city and county has taken so much flack over how they have handled some of this I am not surprised they closed shop and split.


----------



## Grunt (Aug 18, 2017)

Devildoc said:


> It's weird here.  It's as if people don't know how to act or how to talk to anyone who looks different at risk of being called fill-in-the-blank.  One headline says "Protests in Durham turn into epic dance party."  But if you say "boo," it looks like they could rumble.
> 
> The city and county has taken so much flack over how they have handled some of this I am not surprised they closed shop and split.



Unfortunately, that's a picture perfect example of "fear" at work. And, as we all know here, that's one of the end results of "terrrorism". I'm so glad that I'm not scared of everyone and everything. Life is good!


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 18, 2017)

Ladies and Gentlemen, Mr. Charles Barkley on monuments and statues...

There is text of an interview with him talking about how The President (any President) should not be tweeting....I'm trying to find that video as well.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 19, 2017)

CNN producing news...Unmasking the leftist Antifa movement: Activists seek peace through violence - CNN


----------



## Kraut783 (Aug 19, 2017)

Pretty good article


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 19, 2017)

Interesting statement by the ACLU, and I did not read anywhere that McAuliffe had blame the ACLU either All I had read was him calling for all Confederate monuments to be removed which is in direct contravention to VA State Law.


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 20, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> View attachment 19404



Please think a little more deeply before you post things like this in the future.  On the surface, this is a funny meme.  But think about what it really means.  It's green-lighting American citizens for death simply for exercising their rights.  That's not what we're about as a country, that's not what we're about as a site.  Just a thought for the future.



TLDR20 said:


> It is a fucking meme. Lighten up.



Negative.  This is a tacit, if unintentional, endorsement of politically-directed violence.  There is no place for that on our site.  

There is also no place on this site for people who inject themselves into  matters the site staff is handling with other members.  Nor is there a place for people who wantonly disrespect site staff or other site members, as you have done in this thread and others recently.  You don't tell me, or any other staff member to "lighten up" when we're exercising our duties here.  

Your "passion" for your politics does not give you a free pass to act in whatever manner you see fit.  Consider yourself formally warned.  The next time you pull something like this, in this thread or any other, you're going to have a problem. 

And if you think this site is "getting lamer and lamer everyday," like you said in that post you deleted, you're welcome to take it on down the road.

Do not respond to this message.  Do not PM me about it.  I don't need your excuses or your counter-accusations or your rebuttals.  I simply expect your compliance.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 20, 2017)

I drove downtown today. The city is being proactive with regard to the Confederate Veteran's Memorial. They've also parked a police car outside the barricades. But all is quiet and nobody seems inclined to stand around in 98-degree heat and protest or defend anything. Life goes on.


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 20, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> I simply expect your compliance.



So you are okay with white supremacists exercising their right to an opinion, but not two members on this site? 

Do you see the contradiction here?


----------



## RackMaster (Aug 20, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> So you are okay with white supremacists exercising their right to an opinion, but not two members on this site?
> 
> Do you see the contradiction here?



Private site, private rules; same reason Facebook and Google get away with suppressing anything not in line with their ideals.


----------



## Dame (Aug 20, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> So you are okay with white supremacists exercising their right to an opinion, but not two members on this site?
> 
> Do you see the contradiction here?


Exactly what RackMaster said. Any of us who disrespect a mod, in any thread, is just asking for some down time. This wasn't just an opinion.

ETA: This is just one site member to another. I even "liked" that meme. But talking like that to a respected senior member upsets more than just the staff.


----------



## ShadowSpear (Aug 20, 2017)

I'd like to think this site encourages freedom of speech. This isn't the military and definitely not Facebook.  We have a variety of different views, unlike other sites that exercise pure group think.  While some might take offense to the image, I'd have to agree it's just a meme, and I don't think the original poster's goal was to incite the masses to go on a neo-nazi killing spree.  Everyone needs to just lighten up and remember this is just a discussion community. Start discussing your opposing views without getting bent out of shape. 

Also, unlike the military, if you think a staff member is in the wrong you can send a report that will go directly to me and no one else.  I've fired mods/admins in the past, and I've also banned a number of members. At the end of the day I obviously want everyone to stick around and contribute, but in situations like these I have no choice but to step in and be objective.  The ShadowSpear staff turnover, mods and admins alike, is pretty high; not just because of the expectations, but also because of interactions like these.   I'm in the process of revising the forum rules for the upcoming forum overhaul to not only make them simpler, but also free of doubt about what is prohibited on the site and what is not. Moderators have the job to moderate the site, so obviously I need to make sure that guidance is clear and up to date, so I apologize for the friction.  Also, keep in mind that being a proactive mod on this site isn't the easiest or most thankful position, which is why I am now going to entice you all to throw your name in the hat for the upcoming mod election.

I consider this matter closed and putting this thread back on track.


----------



## RackMaster (Aug 20, 2017)

And the it's spread to Canada.  It doesn't surprise me in Quebec though, there's a large community of anarchists and communists.  And it's the home of Canada's latest far right anti-immigration group.  Except all the violence came from one side... Antifa attacking cops...

Hundreds of counter-protesters swarm far-right La Meute protest in Quebec City


----------



## Gunz (Aug 20, 2017)

Antifas...Nazis...Some people have entirely too much free time.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 20, 2017)

Tomorrow will be interesting. We'll soon see how many people go fucking blind because they can't heed warnings.

Hint:


----------



## Grunt (Aug 20, 2017)

Frank S. said:


> Tomorrow will be interesting. We'll soon see how many people go fucking blind because they can't heed warnings.



Yep...tell some people what they "can't" do and they will do it just to show you then can. They shall surely reap what they sow if that's the case.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 20, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Wonder who they'll try to sue.



Amazon, of course. Except this guy who loves the free delivery.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 20, 2017)

I saw an eclipse once. It gets kinda darkish--not dark as night--for a while. And then it's over. Asta la vista.


----------



## Kraut783 (Aug 20, 2017)

so, like a sand storm in Iraq.


----------



## AWP (Aug 21, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> so, like a sand storm in Iraq.



I saw two haboobs in Afghanistan. I imagine the experiences were similar.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 21, 2017)

I saw two haBoobs the other day. Nice ones. Pass the beer nuts.


----------



## racing_kitty (Aug 21, 2017)

From the Houston Chronicle: 



> A Houston man has been charged with trying to plant explosives at the statue of Confederate officer Richard Dowling in Hermann Park, federal officials said Monday.
> 
> Andrew Schneck, 25, who was released from probation early last year after being convicted in 2015 of storing explosives, was charged in a criminal complaint filed in federal court, Acting U.S. Attorney Abe Martinez said in a statement Monday.



Nitroglycerin and HMTD was what they found both in the device and in his home, where he also had precursors. Everyone knows nitro, and HMTD is on par with TATP in the "shit RK would sooner blow in place" department (yes, it's peroxide based).

I wonder who's shitting his/her pants in the federal justice system over this guy?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 21, 2017)

Sweet narrative from Bloomberg: Actually Getting Rid of Robert E. Lee Can Be More Difficult Than You’d Think


----------



## AWP (Aug 21, 2017)

Are these monuments owned by the gov't or private entities? Tearing them down is a crime, but our governments are willing to let mobs run wild because that's what the people want? That's anarchy.

No matter my opinion on removing the monuments, that isn't how our country is supposed to work. If the gov't follows its legal due process and they come down, I'm onboard. Letting mobs do whatever they want? Our country is genuinely on the down slope when you can destroy any gov't property without penalty and become a hero for that action.



Frank S. said:


> Tomorrow will be interesting. We'll soon see how many people go fucking blind because they can't heed warnings.



Great. Now I'm blind, Thanks, Frank.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 22, 2017)

Still going down the path of removing statues of men who fought for Virginia I see: Chaos Breaks Out at Charlottesville City Council Meeting


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 22, 2017)

AWP said:


> Great. Now I'm blind, Thanks, Frank.



If you have hairy palms too?  Don't blame @Frank S. :-"


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 22, 2017)

Man our outrage level is still peaking: Civil War weekend canceled in Manassas, Virginia

Holy Shit.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 22, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Man our outrage level is still peaking: Civil War weekend canceled in Manassas, Virginia
> 
> Holy Shit.



Meh. If you take the 10.000 foot view, you - *What the?!?*


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 22, 2017)

We keep peaking on this outrage whoonya ESPN pulls Robert Lee off football assignment at Virginia | The Daily Gazette


----------



## 81FO (Aug 23, 2017)

Several statues were removed in New Orleans, by decree of the mayor with city council approval, there was no special vote. People protested the removal and there were counter-protesting groups. Thing is after decades of experience in crowd control (Mardi Gras) the NOPD kept things under control. When someone got outta hand it was handled. During those protests somehow only minor issues occured. Hell, there were people open carrying pistols & rifles, despite a parish prohibition ordenace. It got stupid with death threats, other threats of bodily harm and property damage on social media.

In the end the statutes, monuments were removed and removal was funded by a private source who turns out had been lobbying the city council for years to have them removed. I have seen or heard several people mention that the monuments are acceptable if placed in cemetaries. Well that is apparently not the case in New Orleans. A statue of Stonewall Jackson was removed from a cemetary located in Mid-City.

I understand both sides of the argument, excluding the white suprematist reasoning, but what I want to know is where does it stop?
Currently there is a group lobbying to remove the statue of Andrew Jackson and have Jackson Square renamed. This past week there were people trying to stage a protest with intent to copy what took place in Durham, NC, and tear down the statue. Next thing they'll claim is the Bill of Rights & Constitution are worthless, and our Republic is not worth fighting for on the same premiss.


All the irrational yelling and the dip-shits on both sides running around with sticks & shields in the streets. That is grade school shit!

The incivility of it all just pisses me off!!


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 23, 2017)

81FO said:


> All the irrational yelling and the dip-shits on both sides running around with sticks & shields in the streets. That is grade school shit!



Frankly I think the First Amendment is overrated. Not unnecessary, not unimportant, but overrated by  a Canadian SF long shot.
Misanthropy on the other hand is underrated, although _active_ misanthropy will land you in jail.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 23, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> We keep peaking on this outrage whoonya ESPN pulls Robert Lee off football assignment at Virginia | The Daily Gazette



My reasons for hating ESPN and their preachy asses are many.  Bruce Jenner getting the Courage Award over Lauren Hill, a 19-year-old college basketball player stricken with cancer who died after achieving her dream of scoring in a game, or Noah Galloway, who competes in adventure races and other events despite losing an arm and a leg during the Iraq War, top the list.

Some corporations just cannot get out of their own way, and ESPN in their over-the-top and unnecessary attempt of "sensitivity" can thank themselves for bring this most recent Streisand Effect attention to themselves.  If I'm Robert Lee, an ASIAN dude, I have to wonder if someone is messing with me when I'm told I've been switched games.


----------



## policemedic (Aug 23, 2017)

In this context, collectively means ESPN fucking told him it was happening and he got to say, "OK. "

Assholes.  Yet one more reason why I dislike professional sports.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 23, 2017)

Well, I for one applaud ESPN for being proactive for removing who we all know to be a Confederate-general-wrapped-in-an-Asian-racist-sportscaster, whose singular goal was to further divide the people.  

Oh, for fuck's sake....

Just when I think this whole douchery can't get any more stupid...


----------



## ShadowSpear (Aug 23, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> We keep peaking on this outrage whoonya ESPN pulls Robert Lee off football assignment at Virginia | The Daily Gazette



Face palm of the year award go to ESPN. "Hey Robert, would you mind going by Rob?"


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 23, 2017)

ShadowSpear said:


> Face palm of the year award go to ESPN. "Hey Robert, would you mind going by Rob?"



Then they'll mistake him for _this_ guy, and it _will_ be a race issue....


----------



## Blizzard (Aug 23, 2017)

Fuck ESPN.   What a bunch of jackasses.  Seriously.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 23, 2017)

81FO said:


> what I want to know is where does it stop?



For some reasons I keep thinking about this question, and I ask of those with children: did you have the conversation about what 2  plus 2 yet? And if so, what was your answer?


----------



## Blizzard (Aug 23, 2017)

81FO said:


> Several statues were removed in New Orleans, by decree of the mayor with city council approval, there was no special vote. People protested the removal and there were counter-protesting groups. Thing is after decades of experience in crowd control (Mardi Gras) the NOPD kept things under control. When someone got outta hand it was handled. During those protests somehow only minor issues occured. Hell, there were people open carrying pistols & rifles, despite a parish prohibition ordenace. It got stupid with death threats, other threats of bodily harm and property damage on social media.
> 
> In the end the statutes, monuments were removed and removal was funded by a private source who turns out had been lobbying the city council for years to have them removed. I have seen or heard several people mention that the monuments are acceptable if placed in cemetaries. Well that is apparently not the case in New Orleans. A statue of Stonewall Jackson was removed from a cemetary located in Mid-City.
> 
> ...


The city of Minneapolis' Park Board recently moved to co-name (on the way to complete rename) a popular city lake, Lake Calhoun, because of pressure by activists who were offended that Calhoun owned slaves.  The rename you ask?  A Dakota name... Lake Bde Maka Ska.

In 1817, Calhoun sent the Army to survey the area and build a fort.  During this survey, they named the lake in his honor.   It remained that name until early this year.

Activists are not happy with the dual-naming and have taken it upon themselves to further "modify" the park signs (vandals have completely sprayed "East Lake Calhoun" with brown spray paint on replacement signs)...


----------



## TLDR20 (Aug 23, 2017)

ESPN's Robert Lee Blunder—and the Backlash It Provoked


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 23, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> ESPN's Robert Lee Blunder—and the Backlash It Provoked



One interesting this about their decision is when you wonder how many sets of eyes at ESPN saw this on their email and still, they went ahead with it.

Must be some echo at the ESPN conference rooms...


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 23, 2017)

I think we would all understand if  the announcer's name was Robert Yee Lee.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 23, 2017)

Christopher Columbus monument vandalized in Baltimore


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 23, 2017)




----------



## DA SWO (Aug 23, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> View attachment 19485 View attachment 19486 View attachment 19487


That's not a pepper ball, 37/40MM CS maybe.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 23, 2017)

I just spent ten minutes in the event posting on facebook...these people are stupid.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 23, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> I just spend ten minutes in the event posting on facebook...these people are stupid.



Huh?


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 24, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> View attachment 19485 View attachment 19486 View attachment 19487



Reminds me of this:


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 24, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Huh?


Protest Trump Downtown Phoenix


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 24, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Protest Trump Downtown Phoenix



Okay, I'm making an effort to not come across as a dick, but I still don't understand the context of your first post.  Now I am even more confused because your response to my "huh?" was to post a Facebook link to a anti-Trump rally?

Are you inviting us to attend the rally?

Why are the commenters "stupid?"


----------



## RackMaster (Aug 24, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Okay, I'm making an effort to not come across as a dick, but I still don't understand the context of your first post.  Now I am even more confused because your response to my "huh?" was to post a Facebook link to a anti-Trump rally?
> 
> Are you inviting us to attend the rally?
> 
> Why are the commenters "stupid?"



I gave him the benefit of doubt and checked out the page.  And that page is absolutely full of not just stupid people but fucking morons.  They outright claim Trump is the leader of the white supremacists.  There's one woman that brought her 6 year old because the 6 year old wanted to "fight for her rights".  They were tear gassed and thankfully someone gave the child a gas mask.  But then the moron decided to take a picture and post it for the Interwebz to see.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 24, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> There's one woman that brought her 6 year old because the 6 year old wanted to "fight for her rights".  They were tear gassed and thankfully someone gave the child a gas mask.



Lotta good that must have done. Here's how you do crowd control.


----------



## RackMaster (Aug 24, 2017)

And the militant wing of Antifa, the Black Bloc has declared war on journalist's. 

Black Bloc warning urges more violence against Canadian journalists


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 24, 2017)

So our lawmakers need to be checked for low IQ.  There's a reason the bases in the South were named for Confederate Generals and regiments maintained their history in the National Guard.  It's called reconciliation: Lawmakers push to rename Fort Rucker, other military bases that honor Confederate leaders

My point about the event page is I read some of the stuff and there are a lot people willfully ignorant.


----------



## Salt USMC (Aug 24, 2017)

Explain to the class why you think renaming bases named after Civil War generals is "low IQ"


----------



## ShadowSpear (Aug 24, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> Explain to the class why you think renaming bases named after Civil War generals is "low IQ"



Im pretty sure that's not what he wrote.


----------



## Salt USMC (Aug 24, 2017)

ShadowSpear said:


> Im pretty sure that's not what he wrote.


He said that our lawmakers need to be checked for "low IQ".  Said lawmakers want to rename bases that bear the names of confederate generals.  The implication is that people who want to rename those bases are low IQ people.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 24, 2017)

Fort Hood, will always be "the hood" no matter what general they name that dump after...:-"


----------



## racing_kitty (Aug 24, 2017)

Fort Hood is a botched abortion thrown in a dumpster fire, and named after an abject failure of a general officer. I think it is rather apropos. Trash for trash.


----------



## AWP (Aug 24, 2017)

I was curious and decided to follow-up on an earlier post about our collective attention span.

CNN: Nothing about this story on its main page.
MSNBC: One opinion piece
Fox: Several articles/ opinion pieces buried down the small print area of its home page.

If it wasn't for Facebook this wouldn't be on your radar. The fire's dying out and your pot's going to stop boiling soon. Until the next time when we'll repeat the process.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 24, 2017)

Generally speaking, I agree. That said, I find it interesting to note who posts and who no longer does, and then cross reference that with the members' background and current (known) occupation/field.
And I don't think things are gonna stop boiling soon. The bill for the Wall coming down may be finally due after 28 years.


----------



## AWP (Aug 25, 2017)

Before I forget, when are we tearing down Charles Lindbergh's and Henry Ford's statues?


----------



## ShadowSpear (Aug 25, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> He said that our lawmakers need to be checked for "low IQ".  Said lawmakers want to rename bases that bear the names of confederate generals.  The implication is that people who want to rename those bases are low IQ people.



Or how about the law makers have low IQ for not understanding why they were named for Confederate generals in the first place? I mean, he did mention that directly after the IQ statement.


----------



## Blizzard (Aug 25, 2017)

AWP said:


> Before I forget, when are we tearing down Charles Lindbergh's and Henry Ford's statues?


And while we're tearing shit down, let's not forget all the Capitoline Wolf statutes sent by the Mussolini that are on display in multiple cities. 

Actually, we should just do away with all reminders to history.  They're all flawed figures and any "accomplishments" certainly should not be celebrated or remembered.  I mean, really, the idea of viewing accomplishments through the lens of the time period during which they took place is silly.


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 25, 2017)

Look when those bases were activated, I suspect those names were chosen to garner support from the locals.


----------



## Blizzard (Aug 25, 2017)

AWP said:


> I was curious and decided to follow-up on an earlier post about our collective attention span.
> 
> CNN: Nothing about this story on its main page.
> MSNBC: One opinion piece
> ...


Couldn't agree more with this thought.

As a collective, our society's outrage is superficial at best.  Maybe we still have some deep rooted beliefs but it doesn't seem so.  Our memories are too short.   We're too disconnected.  Do people even remember that every day we're involved in a shooting war in multiple countries?  You won't even find a note of it on the aforementioned CNN and MSNBC webpages without some very serious digging.  That's a huge problem.


----------



## amlove21 (Aug 26, 2017)




----------



## Salt USMC (Aug 27, 2017)

So how about that leftist violence...






And from moments before.  Same guy


----------



## Kraut783 (Aug 27, 2017)

Yeah, he needs to be charged...big time.


----------



## 81FO (Aug 27, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> So how about that leftist violence...
> 
> 
> 
> ...




First off I'll start with saying that the person who was the focus of the two clips was wrong. 

@Salt USMC, for my own clarity did you miss the person who was using an aerosol canister as a flame thower? (And seems to be what the person with the gun was focused on.) Looks to be a provoked respone, albeit excessive and boneheaded.

Also curious what he had loaded in that sidearm, non-leathal maybe? Wondering if there was an LE response? 


The video in my opinion verifies my personal view that both of the groups protesting are shitbirds and fringe elements of "normal polite society" in the US.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 27, 2017)

81FO said:


> Also curious what he had loaded in that sidearm, non-leathal maybe? Wondering if there was an LE response?



This is an absolute non factor. Bullets, empty or Nurf, he pulled his weapon. Period.


----------



## Salt USMC (Aug 27, 2017)

81FO said:


> First off I'll start with saying that the person who was the focus of the two clips was wrong.
> 
> @Salt USMC, for my own clarity did you miss the person who was using an aerosol canister as a flame thower? (And seems to be what the person with the gun was focused on.) Looks to be a provoked respone, albeit excessive and boneheaded.
> 
> ...


That guy was fighting back against a dude who was beating him (and an elderly man in his care) with a confederate flag.
The man behind this viral photo fighting racists with flames explains exactly what happened

And if you watch the "before" video, he was absolutely itching to shoot someone even before the guy with the aerosol flamethrower happened.  Pulling a gun on a dude with an aerosol can is absolutely not an appropriate response.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 27, 2017)

Rather than pushing a comment with snark, let's just give a real description.

Guy needs to be arrested.  On the other end, I'm just glad it was either a blank or non-lethal.  Because that would have been some bad juju.  Unless we're missing the news story about someone taking a round in a lower extremity?


----------



## amlove21 (Aug 27, 2017)

Why exactly are we all assuming (or even entertaining) that was anything other than a live round?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 27, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> Why exactly are we all assuming (or even entertaining) that was anything other than a live round?


Because these guys all live in mom's basement?

But, good point.


----------



## amlove21 (Aug 27, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Because these guys all live in mom's basement?
> 
> But, good point.


Just a weird conversation. He drew, had a malfunction (probably didn't know the status of his weapon), fixed it with RA, then pulled a shot. Sounded live, weapon reacted like it was live, and watching him shoot a miss is a great possibility. 

We have some horses on the screen and some people are searching for zebras. 

Last I checked, that would be brandishing and discharging a firearm at a human. Charge him.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 27, 2017)

Salt USMC said:


> So how about that leftist violence...
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think Alvin said it best....


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 27, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> Just a weird conversation. He drew, had a malfunction (probably didn't know the status of his weapon), fixed it with RA, then pulled a shot. Sounded live, weapon reacted like it was live, and watching him shoot a miss is a great possibility.
> 
> We have some horses on the screen and some people are searching for zebras.
> 
> Last I checked, that would be brandishing and discharging a firearm at a human. Charge him.


I did say he needed to be arrested.


----------



## amlove21 (Aug 27, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> I did say he needed to be arrested.


Yeah absolutely- that was more of an overhead observation and not specifically at you.


----------



## 81FO (Aug 27, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> This is an absolute non factor. Bullets, empty or Nurf, he pulled his weapon. Period.



Not condoning any of it, my stance all a long in this dicussion is that both sides are in the wrong! Violent protest is wrong!

I am against race supremacy.
I am against anarchist.
I disagree politically with liberals, progressives so basically the democrat party. Although I'm not a republican.

As for the statue debate, I have no opinion. My only opnion is that both "sides" have people that need to be arrested.


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 27, 2017)

I saw lots of assaults happening in that video, and others.  There are probably a lot of people who need to catch some charges.  However, I think a dude brandishing--and discharging--a firearm in the manner shown has got to move up to #2 on the list.


----------



## 81FO (Aug 27, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> Why exactly are we all assuming (or even entertaining) that was anything other than a live round?




The crowd reaction. In my experiance people react to gunfire, like steppin' & fetchin'...

The whole thing is odd, maybe the vehicular homicide beat that incident out for being news worthy.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 27, 2017)

81FO said:


> Not condoning any of it, my stance all a long in this dicussion is that both sides are in the wrong! Violent protest is wrong!
> 
> I am against race supremacy.
> I am against anarchist.
> ...



I tried to be clear as mud by only quoting the part of your post that I had a problem with.  It matters not whether his pistol was loaded or unloaded.  He drew it....and in a personal self-defense situation I  would never want it to matter whether or not the person I shot, actually had  rounds in his weapon.   Only that I was justifiably in fear for my life.


----------



## 81FO (Aug 27, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I tried to be clear as mud by only quoting the part of your post that I had a problem with.  It matters not whether his pistol was loaded or unloaded.  He drew it....and in a personal self-defense situation I  would never want it to matter whether or not the person I shot, actually had  rounds in his weapon.   Only that I was justifiably in fear for my life.



Ok, not arguing with you on that point. I just disagree with the premiss that one side was _more_ wrong than the other. Which I interpreted Salt USMC meant by the post heading. My view is moral high ground was lost when the violence started. Old cliche "two wrongs don't make a right."


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 27, 2017)

Homeslice with the pistola has been arrested: Two Men Arrested in Connection With Charlottesville Violence


----------



## 81FO (Aug 27, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> Homeslice with the pistola has been arrested: Two Men Arrested in Connection With Charlottesville Violence



Good to hear, thanks @ThunderHorse for updating that.

Wish the jails were over flowing with those idiots...


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 27, 2017)

Thank god that Paris Jackson, in a hostile environment like the Video Music Awards, would take such a brave stance to denounce Nazi's and mock the President.
#courage  

VMAs 2017: Paris Jackson denounces white supremacists | Daily Mail Online


----------



## amlove21 (Aug 27, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Thank god that Paris Jackson, in a hostile environment like the Video Music Awards, would take such a brave stance to denounce Nazi's and mock the President.
> #courage
> 
> VMAs 2017: Paris Jackson denounces white supremacists | Daily Mail Online


So you're saying the daughter of a renowned pedophile did better than our president in distancing herself from the white supremacist movement?


:-"


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Aug 27, 2017)

amlove21 said:


> So you're saying the daughter of a renowned pedophile did better than our president in distancing herself from the white supremacist movement?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Aug 28, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Thank god that Paris Jackson, in a hostile environment like the Video Music Awards, would take such a brave stance to denounce Nazi's and mock the President.
> #courage
> 
> VMAs 2017: Paris Jackson denounces white supremacists | Daily Mail Online


The ratings of the VMAs must have been epic tonight...


----------



## amlove21 (Aug 28, 2017)

ThunderHorse said:


> The ratings of the VMAs must have been epic tonight...


EVERYONE had a special cause. Much mic hikacking going on. Glad I didn't watch.


----------



## Frank S. (Aug 28, 2017)




----------



## DA SWO (Aug 28, 2017)

I don't think douchebag was aiming at anyone, weapon is pointed down and too the left.
That said he still violated at least one statute and should enjoy his stay at the graybar hotel.


----------



## Salt USMC (Aug 28, 2017)

His first (botched) shot was definitely aimed at the guy's head


----------



## amlove21 (Aug 28, 2017)

DA SWO said:


> I don't think douchebag was aiming at anyone, weapon is pointed down and too the left.
> That said he still violated at least one statute and should enjoy his stay at the graybar hotel.





Salt USMC said:


> His first (botched) shot was definitely aimed at the guy's head


Not really able to tell either way, IMO. 

Regardless, blatant crime. Glad he was arrested and hope he gets the book thrown at him.


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## BloodStripe (Aug 30, 2017)

Berkeley Mayor: Classify Antifa As A Gang

I'm not sure gang is the correct term to use, but it's a start.


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## racing_kitty (Aug 30, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> Berkeley Mayor: Classify Antifa As A Gang
> 
> I'm not sure gang is the correct term to use, but it's a start.



So I can safely assume Mayor Arreguin has renounced his membership with BAMN, the organization that works hand-in-glove with Antifa?


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## Gunz (Aug 30, 2017)

Antifa: ISIS Lite.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 30, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Antifa: ISIS Lite.



Lol.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 30, 2017)

racing_kitty said:


> So I can safely assume Mayor Arreguin has renounced his membership with BAMN, the organization that works hand-in-glove with Antifa?



I am waiting for him to release a statement clarifying his position and claiming he was "taken out of context" in the video interview that can be seen in all of its context.


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## racing_kitty (Aug 30, 2017)

Yup. A real, knee-slapping, gut busting, goddamn laugh if I saw one. /sarc


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## Kraut783 (Aug 30, 2017)

Nice spot for a MOAB


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## racing_kitty (Aug 30, 2017)

I love America. I just really hate most Americans.


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## BloodStripe (Aug 30, 2017)

racing_kitty said:


> So I can safely assume Mayor Arreguin has renounced his membership with BAMN, the organization that works hand-in-glove with Antifa?


 Doubtful.


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## BloodStripe (Aug 30, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> Nice spot for a MOAB



Now, now. Remember we must not post funny memes or silly comments about people exercising their freedom of speech. :-"


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## Kraut783 (Aug 30, 2017)

My comments are only a observation


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## Marauder06 (Aug 30, 2017)

Kraut783 said:


> Nice spot for a MOAB



I deeply dislike Antifa, but in that video I just see a group of people who appear to be Americans, appearing to merely be exercising their rights under our Constitution.  That's not a good reason for a death sentence, IMO.


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## Marauder06 (Aug 30, 2017)

NavyBuyer said:


> Now, now. Remember we must not post funny memes or silly comments about people exercising their freedom of speech. :-"



Post memes about people exercising their freedom of speech all you want.  If you need me to explain to you again why we're not going to allow posts that explicitly call for the deaths of American citizens who are exercising THEIR freedom of speech, like the one I just responded to above or the one you posted a few pages ago, feel free to PM me.

@Salt USMC suggested, and I concur, that this thread is no longer useful and should be shut down.  It appears that several members just want to antagonize each other instead of promoting a useful and respectful dialogue.  It may get reopened later, but for now we're done here.


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## Marauder06 (Aug 9, 2018)

Posting this here in lieu of starting another thread.

And because I think it's funny.


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