# Report: DoD Investigating Whether Navy SEALs Strangled Green Beret To Death In Mali



## RackMaster (Oct 29, 2017)

This is pretty crazy.



> The Naval Criminal Investigative Service is probing whether a pair of Navy SEALs were responsible for the strangling death of Staff Sgt. Logan J. Melgar, an Army Green Beret reportedly found dead on June 4 while deployed to Mali, the New York Times first reported on Oct. 29.



Report: DoD Investigating Whether Navy SEALs Strangled Green Beret To Death In Mali


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 29, 2017)

Wow.


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 29, 2017)

I just saw this on twitter...WILD.


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## CDG (Oct 29, 2017)

Holy shit. This is a bad, bad story all the way around.

ETA:  The NYT is reporting the SEALs were from DEV. 

2 Navy SEALs Under Suspicion in Strangling of Green Beret in Mali


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## EasyDay (Oct 29, 2017)

From the article

"According to one version of events, one of the SEALs put Sergeant Melgar in a chokehold. When the sergeant passed out, the commandos frantically tried to revive him. Failing that, they rushed him to an emergency clinic, where he was pronounced dead."


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## AWP (Oct 29, 2017)

EasyDay said:


> From the article
> 
> "According to one version of events, one of the SEALs put Sergeant Melgar in a chokehold. When the sergeant passed out, the commandos frantically tried to revive him. Failing that, they rushed him to an emergency clinic, where he was pronounced dead."



I'll do this crazy thing and wait for the investigation to finish, but the story doesn't feel like some mutual MMA gone wrong.


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## Blizzard (Oct 30, 2017)

^ concur


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## Devildoc (Oct 30, 2017)

First, prayers to his family and teammates.  Not the way you'd expect to die deployed.

Second, to quote myself when I got in a car wreck when I was 16..."Oh, this is bad...very, very bad."


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## Gunz (Oct 30, 2017)

CDG said:


> Holy shit. This is a bad, bad story all the way around.
> 
> ETA:  The NYT is reporting the SEALs were from DEV.
> 
> 2 Navy SEALs Under Suspicion in Strangling of Green Beret in Mali




Holy Fuck. 

RIP Warrior.


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## SpitfireV (Oct 30, 2017)

Now I'm no pathologist, but I would have thought the cause of death would be different from a choke hold (carotid, I assume?) and from strangulation. 

Prima facie, something doesn't seem right here.


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## CDG (Oct 30, 2017)

Yeah, I'm not buying the MMA match gone wrong.  Dudes get choked out all the time, and don't die.  There is a lot more to this story.


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## Queeg (Oct 31, 2017)

That and who does MMA at 0500?


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 31, 2017)

Queeg said:


> That and who does MMA at 0500?



Uhh, it depended.


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## Gunz (Oct 31, 2017)

Le Terrace in Bamako. The city comes alive after 2200. Could an 0500 chokehold be alcohol-related?
...


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## Blizzard (Oct 31, 2017)

Ranger Psych said:


> Uhh, it depended.


^ on whether you were still up from the night before...


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## RackMaster (Oct 31, 2017)

Blizzard said:


> ^ on whether you were still up from the night before...



Or up doing PT.


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## 8482farm (Nov 2, 2017)

Seems off that two highly trained individuals could have potentially applied a choke hold wrong and still fail to revive the Sergeant. Circulation automatically resumes after the hold is released.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 2, 2017)

?


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## 8482farm (Nov 2, 2017)

Well, if prolonged(near 5 minutes+), onset of brain damage is inevitable due to lack of oxygen saturation in the brain. However, it may only be a couple of minutes to put someone out and for them to come to if you temporarily cut off circulation. You'd have to have him in the hold for a while in order to put him in a state passed revival. In my opinion, he might have been strangled instead.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 2, 2017)

?


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## 8482farm (Nov 2, 2017)

If they were just playing BJJ at 0500 then yes. In the context of BJJ and MMA, "Choke" holds or blood chokes are designed to temporarily disrupt circulation to the brain by squeezing the neck to pinch the jugulars. NOT by cutting off their breathing by disrupting their airway which is strangulation.


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## Ranger Psych (Nov 2, 2017)

My thing is, and having held until someone passed out a couple times, you can tell when they're not a participant anymore.

A choke vs strangle, choke's quicker anyway. You'd be hanging the fuck onto the guy for a good bit longer since they have the oxygenation buffer of their lung capacity, provided they keep control of themselves.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 2, 2017)

.

.


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## policemedic (Nov 2, 2017)

8482farm said:


> Seems off that two highly trained individuals could have potentially applied a choke hold wrong and still fail to revive the Sergeant. Circulation automatically resumes after the hold is released.



If everything goes to plan and assuming no undiagnosed pathology.


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## 8482farm (Nov 2, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> A couple of things are at play when you interrupt blood flow to the brain. Blood flows into the brain by two sets of separate carotid arteries, the internals, and the externals; that is 4 arteries. Two other major arteries that supply blood are the vertebral arteries. All of the blood flow enters what is known as the Circle Of Willis. The Circle of Willis distributes blood to the brain. The "Jugulars" that you say get pinched off, do indeed get occluded, but they are veins and drain the head of blood, they do not supply blood to the brain. When you choke someone, there is still blood flow to the brain, so something else is going on as well.
> 
> With increased pressure on the external carotid arteries, the pressure skyrockets inside the blood vessels There are Carotid Bodies which monitor beat to beat pressure within the arteries. There is a reflex known as the  "Herring Breuer" reflex that interprets this increased pressure as harmful to the brain. In response, the heart rate slows dramatically and other blood vessels in the body dilate in an emergency measure to save the brain from an overpressure event. Someone who is at the fitness level of a Special Forces Soldier probably has a resting pulse rate well below 60, probably ten to twenty beats lower per minute. So you take this already slow heart rate and it gets driven even lower. It is a clinically significant slowing of the heart rate. So there is more going on than a simple reduction of blood flow to the brain, there are severe cardio-vascular results as well. A good part of what happens with these "Blood Chokes" is cardiac and other measures to lower the blood pressure within the body. I do not know if the airway was damaged causing lack of air to the lungs, it is a possibility.
> 
> ...



Apologies, I was uncertain about the nature of your initial inquiry. Yes, you are correct, anatomically/physiologically jugular and arterial veins have different purposes within the body and all are affected while under a vascular neck restraint. More specifically, you are also correct in the exact physiological process where the choke is locked, pressure builds in the head, BP drops in the body, vision becomes impaired, and you ultimately lose consciousness. It's nice to know that I have the opportunity to speak more in-depth concerning medical processes here.  I will do better in the future with being more specific and accurate. However, I'm not quite sure what games you are referring to.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 2, 2017)

This sounds like straight up malfeasance to me.  I hope I’m wrong.


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## pardus (Nov 2, 2017)

8482farm said:


> Apologies, I was uncertain about the nature of your initial inquiry. Yes, you are correct, anatomically/physiologically jugular and arterial veins have different purposes within the body and all are affected while under a vascular neck restraint. More specifically, you are also correct in the exact physiological process where the choke is locked, pressure builds in the head, BP drops in the body, vision becomes impaired, and you ultimately lose consciousness. It's nice to know that I have the opportunity to speak more in-depth concerning medical processes here.  I will do better in the future with being more specific and accurate. However, I'm not quite sure what games you are referring to.



How long have you been a Corpsman? What pay grade are you? I'm glad to see that you think an extraordinarily experienced Military MD is "correct".


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## TLDR20 (Nov 2, 2017)

Can we all just wait until the investigation is complete?


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## pardus (Nov 2, 2017)

This is what happens when juveille frat boy behavior is allowed in the military, just like the rank punching retardedness. Both of which has killed our brothers in arms.


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## policemedic (Nov 2, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Can we all just wait until the investigation is complete?



Dude, that’s no fucking fun at all. Who does that? 🤣


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## TLDR20 (Nov 2, 2017)

policemedic said:


> Dude, that’s no fucking fun at all. Who does that? 🤣



Yeah it’s less fun. But this dude was a brother. And unless we know what happened, let’s not get caught up in the semantics of MMA training. 

I have personal feelings on this, and I will keep them that way, until the investigation is over at least.


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## policemedic (Nov 2, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah it’s less fun. But this dude was a brother. And unless we know what happened, let’s not get caught up in the semantics of MMA training.
> 
> I have personal feelings on this, and I will keep them that way, until the investigation is over at least.



I get it. My sarcasm may have gotten the better of me (that _never_ happens...🙄).


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## 8482farm (Nov 2, 2017)

pardus said:


> How long have you been a Corpsman? What pay grade are you? I'm glad to see that you think an extraordinarily experienced Military MD is "correct". View attachment 20162



I've been a Corpsman for over five years. Sorry if I conveyed the wrong tone. But I was just admitting @Red Flag 1 was right and I was wrong.


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## pardus (Nov 3, 2017)

8482farm said:


> I've been a Corpsman for over five years. Sorry if I conveyed the wrong tone. But I was just admitting @Red Flag 1 was right and I was wrong.



"Over 5 years?" Your tone is not the issue. Your misdiagnosis is!
Go and do some study on your professional field.


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## amlove21 (Nov 3, 2017)

So. Here’s my take.

We don’t wait for for an investigation to be 100% done on the this site before discussion just because the topic might be sensitive. We have a President trump page with 114 pages and a Hillary Clinton emails thread with more with no closed investigation. Those are sensitive and have done more damage than good to our community than good, IMO. Yet every day they get more posts.

With that said- no matter what happened, malicious, incidental, or somewhere in between- this is a tragedy. We (the SOF community) lost a Brother in the worst possible way- not in combat. Respect that fact.

We won’t hide from it here because we have hard conversations here. Members discuss new issues and sometimes discuss issues before all the facts are laid out as truth- but we do it respectfully and as equals, in line with our updated forum business rules.

Only warning folks. Heed it.


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## 8482farm (Nov 3, 2017)

pardus said:


> "Over 5 years?" Your tone is not the issue. Your misdiagnosis is!
> Go and do some study on your professional field.



How did I misdiagnose when there hasn't been an official diagnoses? I omitted certain physiological processes that are relevant and may have been a contributor to the cause of death and did not include carotids which are also being affected during vascular neck constraints. However, we both came to the conclusion that the victim may have asphyxiated/been strangled. That may be why the other two involved were not able to(if they actually tried) revive him since it is more difficult to get someone breathing again than to promote circulation. 

My take is that, it would be extremely unlikely that the two SEALs would have accidentally killed the Green Beret due to a BJJ/MMA style blood choke. The reason I keep referencing BJJ/MMA is because the two in question should have no other reason to have the Green Beret in a choke hold unless they were in an actual altercation. These techniques are demonstrated on all types of military/law enforcement personnel constantly with minimal results in death or brain damage. It only takes seconds to put someone out and minutes for them to come to. 

However, since they were unable to revive the Green Beret through the means of BLS leads me to believe he was strangled instead of blood choked. This would allude to murder because it takes more time and effort to strangle someone than to blood choke them and it would be harder to revive them. Meaning, there has to be motive/effort behind the act. I do hope it was an accident though because this situation is highly demoralizing and may lead to something bigger if they had to kill one of our own to cover something up.

As for my profession, the bulk of my years were spent in the pharmacy. After entering a A-school to C-school pipeline for pharmacy, I went straight to the hospital. Most of my time was spent compounding medication than face-to-face patient care. Also, working with staff that are over 50% civilian and have no prior military experience, the stigma of "just a Corpsman" was very high. I had little opportunity to upkeep my skills as a Corpsman due to my duties as a Pharmacy Technician. I had to take time out of my 12 hour work schedule just to volunteer with nurses in the ICU to try and learn as much as I could while juggling school, PT, and my collateral duties . So yes, there is no way I would be as knowledgeable as a Military MD with years more experience than I. He checked me and I admitted to my mistakes. I am currently half way through my bachelors degree in Medical Humanities at my university and plan on attending USUHS in the future after serving some more enlisted time. I apologize for not providing complete and accurate information and will do better in the future when engaging in conversation concerning my profession.


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## AWP (Nov 3, 2017)

I know some probably want to discuss an MMA angle and the physiology involved, but that isn't happening; So let's end those posts.


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## Docboats (Nov 3, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I do not know if the airway was damaged causing lack of air to the lungs, it is a possibility.



The NYT article used the word strangle over choke on more than one occasion.
I think we can all agree, unless something physiologically went weird here, this soldier should have been able to wake up from a standard blood choke. Hell, I'm fairly certain he'd been choked out before in combatives training.
I'm listening for horses here, not zebras... a crushing injury  to Staff Sgt. Melgar's airway seems the most likely cause of death from what little information I have. IF that is what happened, it would most likely be out of these 2 SEALs wheelhouse to throw in a cric or trach to save him, which would account for their failed revival attempts.

Foul play, or rough play gone wrong... this sucks.
RIP Staff Sgt. Logan J. Melgar


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## AWP (Nov 3, 2017)

AWP said:


> I know some probably want to discuss an MMA angle and the physiology involved, but that isn't happening; So let's end those posts.





Docboats said:


> The NYT article used the word strangle over choke on more than one occasion.
> I think we can all agree, unless something physiologically went weird here, this soldier should have been able to wake up from a standard blood choke. Hell, I'm fairly certain he'd been choked out before in combatives training.
> I'm listening for horses here, not zebras... a crushing injury  to Staff Sgt. Melgar's airway seems the most likely cause of death from what little information I have. IF that is what happened, it would most likely be out of these 2 SEALs wheelhouse to throw in a cric or trach to save him, which would account for their failed revival attempts.
> 
> ...


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## Gunz (Nov 7, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> A couple of things are at play when you interrupt blood flow to the brain. Blood flows into the brain by two sets of separate carotid arteries, the internals, and the externals; that is 4 arteries. Two other major arteries that supply blood are the vertebral arteries. All of the blood flow enters what is known as the Circle Of Willis. The Circle of Willis distributes blood to the brain. The "Jugulars" that you say get pinched off, do indeed get occluded, but they are veins and drain the head of blood, they do not supply blood to the brain. When you choke someone, there is still blood flow to the brain, so something else is going on as well.
> 
> With increased pressure on the external carotid arteries, the pressure skyrockets inside the blood vessels There are Carotid Bodies which monitor beat to beat pressure within the arteries. There is a reflex known as the  "Herring Breuer" reflex that interprets this increased pressure as harmful to the brain. In response, the heart rate slows dramatically and other blood vessels in the body dilate in an emergency measure to save the brain from an overpressure event. Someone who is at the fitness level of a Special Forces Soldier probably has a resting pulse rate well below 60, probably ten to twenty beats lower per minute. So you take this already slow heart rate and it gets driven even lower. It is a clinically significant slowing of the heart rate. So there is more going on than a simple reduction of blood flow to the brain, there are severe cardio-vascular results as well. A good part of what happens with these "Blood Chokes" is cardiac and other measures to lower the blood pressure within the body. I do not know if the airway was damaged causing lack of air to the lungs, it is a possibility.
> 
> ...



One of the reasons I love this website.


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## CDG (Nov 7, 2017)

One SEAL has been named, and reports are that they changed their story during the investigation, which never looks good.  To go from, "Yeah, we just found him like that" to "Ok, so, actually, here's the thing......" does not inspire confidence in innocence. 

SEALs in Green Beret death changed their stories during the investigation


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## 8482farm (Nov 8, 2017)

It's unfortunate that what we were speculating has been confirmed. Keeping the victim in mind, I wonder how it's affecting operations within the command and within their teams.


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## AWP (Nov 8, 2017)

8482farm said:


> Keeping the victim in mind, I wonder how it's affecting operations within the command and within their teams.



That's the part we should stay out of. Discussing the incident is one thing, but team room dynamics goes a bit too far. Believe me, I'm an info junkie, but some things are best left out of the public domain.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 8, 2017)

Normally in situations like this where the story changes, we eventually find out that there was a whole lot of wrongdoing preceding the fatal incident.  Substance abuse, or aguments about money, and/or women is often a predicator.  I have no way of knowing what, if anything, may have contributed to this incident.  it could have gone down just as the suspects said.  But in my experience there's usually a lot more to the story.  Otherwise, the truth is story version #1 and there aren't a bunch of changes.


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## Muppet (Nov 8, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> So it is just a blood flow issue to the brain right, nothing else?



Anoxic brain injury / axonal brain injury....

M.


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## Isiah6:8 (Nov 8, 2017)

CDG said:


> One SEAL has been named, and reports are that they changed their story during the investigation, which never looks good.  To go from, "Yeah, we just found him like that" to "Ok, so, actually, here's the thing......" does not inspire confidence in innocence.
> 
> SEALs in Green Beret death changed their stories during the investigation



Tony is a former pro-MMA fighter as well.


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## Gunz (Nov 8, 2017)

Aiiiiyah


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## Marauder06 (Nov 12, 2017)

Single-source reporting, cannot confirm or deny.  But very interesting development if true.

Green Beret Discovered SEALs’ Illicit Cash. Then He Was Killed.



> Melgar, two special operations sources say, discovered the SEALs were pocketing some of the money from the informant fund. The SEALS offered to cut him in, but Melgar declined, these sources said.



The SEALs allegedly claimed Melgar was drunk at the time of the incident.  But...



> It was the worst excuse the SEALs could have made up. A former AFRICOM official who saw the autopsy report said no drugs or alcohol were found in Melgar’s system. At least one source believes he did not drink alcohol at all. The SEALs’ story was unraveling.


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## SaintKP (Nov 12, 2017)

Was just about to post that, it would make sense that they can't name the source however it's an extremely egregious accusation being leveled, it's out of my lane but I'd wait for the official findings and if it turns out that what the article says is true then punish the culprits to the fullest extent.


Thoughts go to Staff Sergeant Melgars family, from every account he was a good man.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 12, 2017)

I fucking hate every part of this whole story. 
And that's what I have to say about that.


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## Grunt (Nov 12, 2017)

That's one of those stories where I felt something was awry from the get-go! Regardless, it was a tragedy for one family and probably won't end well for several others.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 12, 2017)

Agoge said:


> That's one of those stories where I felt something was awry from the get-go! Regardless, it was a tragedy for one family and probably won't end well for several others.



Me too.  Unfortunately this type of thing, while rare, happens with enough regularity to trip warning flares the second the first story came out.


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## CDG (Nov 12, 2017)

This is starting to spin off the rails for the SEALs.  It's certainly not looking good, and the ripple effects of this will be felt for awhile.  What a shitty story all the way around.  If this was a movie, it would be the kind where we all came on here to talk about how unrealistic it was.


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## Gunz (Nov 13, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I fucking hate every part of this whole story.
> And that's what I have to say about that.



Yeah, I do too.



Marauder06 said:


> Normally in situations like this where the story changes, we eventually find out that there was a whole lot of wrongdoing preceding the fatal incident...



^^^This.

Sometimes, with all the publicity, all the hype about Navy SEALs, I think just shitcan the whole program and start over again from scratch...rename it, repackage it, and _this_ time enforce secrecy and non-disclosure with extreme prejudice, top to bottom, just freaking disappear from the radar, from Hollywood, from all the outside influences on the psych of these warriors.

I'm not saying this is a team thing. But for an organization that we are not supposed to know even exists, we know waaaaay too fucking much. SEALs are like instant celebrities...especially DEVGRU...and fame, even if it's associational, can ruin anybody or anything, especially people who are not prepared for it. It can make you think you're a kind of god...and maybe even above the law.


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## 8482farm (Nov 13, 2017)

Ocoka said:


> Yeah, I do too.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



It's really hard to avoid. Especially with our social media climate. But I agree with you. We need to go back to the days where everyone would just shut the fuck up.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 13, 2017)

.


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## Poccington (Nov 13, 2017)

This is just insane.


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## AWP (Nov 14, 2017)

Damn...NBC Nightly News has this story with statements from the investigation. This is going to get worse IMO.

Blue Skies.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 14, 2017)

AWP said:


> NBC Nightly News



One of the Navy SEALs being investigated in the death of a Green Beret in Africa told a witness that he "choked [him] out" in the pre-dawn hours of June 4 and that he and another SEAL were out "to get back" at the victim for a perceived offense that night, according to documents from an Army investigation obtained by NBC News.

Witness: Navy SEAL said he "choked out" Green Beret who died

The witness also said that DeDolph indicated he and Matthews "and possibly other individuals" had used "duct tape" on Melgar, but had left that out of their interviews about the death because they were afraid it would be considered hazing.

"Possibly others?"  Damn...


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## Gunz (Nov 14, 2017)

Jesus Christ...


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## Teufel (Nov 14, 2017)

8482farm said:


> It's really hard to avoid. Especially with our social media climate. But I agree with you. We need to go back to the days where everyone would just shut the fuck up.


It’s not that hard to do. Most, of not all, SOF personnel sign NDAs. That means keep your trap shut and screen any books or movies you decide to publish through your command or agency. Period. That’s what separates professionals from these selfish media darings. Failing to follow the rules and safeguard OPSEC puts your fellow service members at risk. You don’t ever put on a beret, scroll, or a trident for personal gain. Sure you may do it initially to prove something to yourself but you quickly learn that life in SOF is all about your team and your teammates. 

What would drive someone to throw the reputation of their community under the bus to make a few bucks? I can’t even process the highway of epic moral failures and bad decisions that led to this incomprehensible tragedy.


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## RackMaster (Nov 14, 2017)

Perhaps it’s time to stop recruiting for elite units off the street.  Focus on internal recruitment of mature and experienced warfighters.  How many join wanting to be a SEAL (or other’s) just for the “fame” they shouldn’t be seeking?


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 14, 2017)

I think we just found our next two death row guys to attend to Leavenworth.


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## Topkick (Nov 14, 2017)

RackMaster said:


> Perhaps it’s time to stop recruiting for elite units off the street.  Focus on internal recruitment of mature and experienced warfighters.  How many join wanting to be a SEAL (or other’s) just for the “fame” they shouldn’t be seeking?



Agree. Prove you are a professional first and only then can you try out for the best.


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## RackMaster (Nov 14, 2017)

Topkick said:


> Agree. Prove you are a professional first and only then can you try out for the best.



It’s what we do in Canuckistan but we are a smaller force.


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 14, 2017)

.


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## Topkick (Nov 14, 2017)

This stuff has gone on at all levels. When we need people to fill the ranks during conflict, we just shake and bake them. I am sure it's not just that easy with SOF, but you still have to fill the ranks somehow.


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## TLDR20 (Nov 14, 2017)

If the reporting is to be believed these guys were front DEVGRU, which means they weren’t right off the street. They were seasoned SEALs with many years in the teams and multiple deployments.

The SSG Melgar was an 18X 3 deployments ago. So I am not really seeing how changing the off the street aspect plays any role in something like this.


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## racing_kitty (Nov 14, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> If the reporting is to be believed these guys were front DEVGRU, which means they weren’t right off the street. They were seasoned SEALs with many years in the teams and multiple deployments.



It depends on if they came in off the streets and into the SEAL teams before ascending to DEVGRU. This kind of institutional rot doesn’t happen overnight, and if they came in as “SEAL babies” then they may very well have been trained that that was what right looked like on the teams. Who knows?


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## TLDR20 (Nov 14, 2017)

racing_kitty said:


> It depends on if they came in off the streets and into the SEAL teams before ascending to DEVGRU. This kind of institutional rot doesn’t happen overnight, and if they came in as “SEAL babies” then they may very well have been trained that that was what right looked like on the teams. Who knows?



Then there is no fix. That is an institutional failing. They would have been taught tht was the way it was period. From what I have seen from SEALs this type of behavior is not surprising.


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## SpitfireV (Nov 14, 2017)

So just as a discussion piece: How about going back to the future and scrapping the SEALs and have the Marines take over?


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## Red Flag 1 (Nov 14, 2017)

.


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## CDG (Nov 14, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Then there is no fix. That is an institutional failing. They would have been taught tht was the way it was period. From what I have seen from SEALs this type of behavior is not surprising.



Agreed.  Sadly, if you look at everything surrounding the Teams the last few years, this is not a surprising place to end up.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 14, 2017)

SpitfireV said:


> So just as a discussion piece: How about going back to the future and scrapping the SEALs and have the Marines take over?



We should keep this thread dedicated to discussing the incident involving the 2 SEAL's and the Green Beret.
Speculative conversations about how to "fix" the SEAL's or anything else along that line should probably be the subject of a separate thread.


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## TLDR20 (Nov 14, 2017)

CDG said:


> Agreed.  Sadly, if you look at everything surrounding the Teams the last few years, this is not a surprising place to end up.



I will bring my full thoughts to light when the investigation is over and people are convicted of a crime. However SEALs have shown to me a propensity to get away with whatever they can. They take “if you aren’t cheating you aren’t trying” to the fullest extent possible. That mindset is fine in combat. It is fine in BUD/S where the stakes are relatively low. It is very different in a politically sensitive, high risk low profile mission set.


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## TLDR20 (Nov 14, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> We should keep this thread dedicated to discussing the incident involving the 2 SEAL's and the Green Beret.
> Speculative conversations about how to "fix" the SEAL's or anything else along that line should probably be the subject of a separate thread.



I posted the previous message prior to you posting this. Delete it if you feel it is right.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 14, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> I posted the previous message prior to you posting this. Delete it if you feel it is right.



What you have to say in your post is absolutely relevant to the topic at hand. I just want to be sure we don’t go down a rabbit hole that distracts from what happened.  ie: dismantling/fixing The SEALS.


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## SpitfireV (Nov 14, 2017)

Yip roger


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## AWP (Nov 14, 2017)

When people see a movie like Training Day or something like The Shield, they usually don't know those stories are based upon real events (the Rampart scandal). Sadly, the narrative is all too real when you look at history only this time it took a tragic turn.

A SOF selection and training pipeline can only do so much to "build" a better human being or screen for those who don't belong. Take a couple of bad apples and weak leadership, now you have a recipe for disaster. We'd like to think peer pressure doesn't play a role, but if you believe a tab or badge can overcome some basic human instincts you're wrong. If people were infallible then leadership wouldn't matter as much in cases like these.

What those two did is horrific, but how did they get to that point? Was this their first instance of theft? Were others threatened and only SSgt Melger had to courage to speak up?

To me the second greatest "fail" here is the lack of immediate disciplinary action. A ship captain or squadron commander with nothing to do with an incident will immediately find themselves reassigned due to a "loss of confidence in their ability to command." If nothing else, DEVGRU should have a new command staff and that should have happened within days or weeks of this incident. NSW is sending a clear signal that they do not have the some standards as the rest of the Navy. 

Regardless of other SEAL incidents, even in DEVGRU, I view this as a couple of shitbirds who were confronted by a man of integrity. That man paid for it with his life. In a world where everyone in uniform is hailed as some kind of hero, SSgt Melger stands well above the rest. That should be a bittersweet point of pride for the Regiment.

BSBD.


----------



## Centermass (Nov 15, 2017)

I wasn't there and I don't know anything as to facts and won't speculate, but as with numerous events like these (Injury, theft, destruction and death etc) get called into question, my thought always turns to this:

Where in the hell was the leadership in all of this....before, during and after?


----------



## Bypass (Nov 15, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> One of the Navy SEALs being investigated in the death of a Green Beret in Africa told a witness that he "choked [him] out" in the pre-dawn hours of June 4 and that he and another SEAL were out "to get back" at the victim for a perceived offense that night, according to documents from an Army investigation obtained by NBC News.
> 
> Witness: Navy SEAL said he "choked out" Green Beret who died
> 
> ...


Fucking assholes.


----------



## DC (Nov 15, 2017)

Having been around SPECWAR and with DEVGRU involved I believe it is best ( for me anyways) to silence the media conclusive frenzy and wait for the actual investigation to conclude.


----------



## Teufel (Nov 16, 2017)




----------



## EasyDay (Nov 16, 2017)

Teufel said:


> View attachment 20279



Can't come to a conclusion about a community based on the actions of the few.

Back to lurking.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 16, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> We should keep this thread dedicated to discussing the incident involving the 2 SEAL's and the Green Beret.
> Speculative conversations about how to "fix" the SEAL's or anything else along that line should probably be the subject of a separate thread.



I'm starting a separate thread for a speculative conversation on things NSW/SEALs/DEVGRU...because the insane amount of hype surrounding these units for the last 30 years (thank you Richard Marcinko et al) justifies criticism and open discussion.


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 16, 2017)

EasyDay said:


> Can't come to a conclusion about a community based on the actions of the few.
> 
> Back to lurking.


Make that statement after you finish BUDS.


----------



## Grunt (Nov 16, 2017)

All units have their clowns and degenerates. Even with the best of assessments...they get through the cracks and embarrass the rest of the good guys on occasion. It will always be that way. 

I don't formulate my opinions based on the actions of a couple degenerate -- and if the information floating around is true -- criminals. 

People seem to forget that the military is a microcosm of society and has its fair share of fools. We try our best to minimize our risk of taking them in, but somehow, they manage to infiltrate.

Like other times before, they will manage this situation and drive on....


----------



## Etype (Nov 28, 2017)

Centermass said:


> I wasn't there and I don't know anything as to facts and won't speculate, but as with numerous events like these (Injury, theft, destruction and death etc) get called into question, my thought always turns to this:
> 
> Where in the hell was the leadership in all of this....before, during and after?


On another continent.


----------



## BloodStripe (May 11, 2018)

Take it for what it's worth, but SOFREP is reporting now that two MARSOC Marines are being investigated by CID in connection with this.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (May 11, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Take it for what it's worth, but SOFREP is reporting now that two MARSOC Marines are being investigated by CID in connection with this.



Saw that too.  Was waiting until someone else ran with it, NBC has now.

Military asking if two Marines played role in Green Beret's death


----------



## Marauder06 (May 11, 2018)

This story MEPS getting weirder and weirder.


----------



## AWP (May 11, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> This story MEPS getting weirder and weirder.



Like your autocorrect?


----------



## Gunz (May 11, 2018)

What a shitshow. The two Raiders might be implicated in the coverup. On the face of it it looks like the SEALs--and maybe some others--had their hands in the cash box and Melgar threatened to turn them in. They offered to cut him in...he refused...and they killed him and then tried to cover it up. I say again, what a shitshow.


----------



## DasBoot (May 12, 2018)

NSW and their boys at Blue need to be put out to pasture. Let MARSOC take the lead on anything amphib related, and leave ARSOF to lead the way on land. AFSOC can keep doing the great work they do. This isn’t isolated. It’s cultural. And it’s out of fucking hand. I put NSW down with ARTB and their respective RTBs as the most unprofessional organizations in the DOD.


----------



## SpitfireV (May 12, 2018)

Jesus Christ, what kind of cunts go from "how can we get out of this pickle with the money?" to "let's kill the guy"?


----------



## Hillclimb (May 12, 2018)

Jeez. I hope this is a case of just trying to implicate other innocent people to remove the microscope from them.


----------



## Gunz (May 12, 2018)

Hillclimb said:


> Jeez. I hope this is a case of just trying to implicate other innocent people to remove the microscope from them.



Yeah, I do too. They say there is "forensic" evidence placing the two Raiders in the room that night...but maybe they weren't there during the alleged murder. If what I think happened did in fact happen, these SEALs were no better than thugs; and they could've been running the show through intimidation/extortion/blackmail. At this point, I wouldn't put anything past them.



DasBoot said:


> NSW and their boys at Blue need to be put out to pasture. Let MARSOC take the lead on anything amphib related, and leave ARSOF to lead the way on land. AFSOC can keep doing the great work they do. This isn’t isolated. It’s cultural. And it’s out of fucking hand. I put NSW down with ARTB and their respective RTBs as the most unprofessional organizations in the DOD.




From what I know of it, Absofuckinglutely.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (May 12, 2018)

You have to be heartless peice of shit to murder a dude over some bullshit money like that. Worst case scenario they would've had to pay the money back and lose their career, maybe a short stint in jail. To go from that to were gonna kill an American Green Beret. That's just evil at its core...I hope they line those dudes up in front SSG Melgar's former ODA and let them shoot the fuck out of them.

NSW's reputation is just getting worse and worse. I know there are good dudes in that community and every group has their 10% shitbag ratios.  But for fuck sake,  their bullshit is getting pretty damn deep.

$.02


----------



## Box (May 14, 2018)

I have watched the hammer fall on fellow soldiers over CIVCAS investigations that took less time to adjudicate than it takes to get a CONOP approved. 
Oddly, when the flag officers are investigating the death of an Afghan that is killed while lurking on the battlefield they can pass judgment and sign the GOMAR faster than a speeding bullet.  Now suddenly it has taken a year just to remind everyone that there is a "_policy not to comment on ongoing investigations_"

...now, I dare one of you to get charged with DUI and see how fast you are found guilty by DOD
...or violate one of the new social policy rules and see how long THAT on-going investigation lasts


Be patient men, the system works like a well oiled machine.


----------



## Gunz (May 19, 2018)

Box said:


> I have watched the hammer fall on fellow soldiers over CIVCAS investigations that took less time to adjudicate than it takes to get a CONOP approved.
> Oddly, when the flag officers are investigating the death of an Afghan that is killed while lurking on the battlefield they can pass judgment and sign the GOMAR faster than a speeding bullet.  Now suddenly it has taken a year just to remind everyone that there is a "_policy not to comment on ongoing investigations_"
> 
> ...now, I dare one of you to get charged with DUI and see how fast you are found guilty by DOD
> ...



This was SOP way back. An ARVN murdered one of my teammates. He got transfered and the investigation was quashed in the interests of allied harmony. If it had been one of us murdering one of our counterparts...Red Line Brig and 20 years at Portsmouth.


----------



## AWP (May 19, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> This was SOP way back. An ARVN murdered one of my teammates. He got transfered and the investigation was quashed in the interests of allied harmony. If it had been one of us murdering one of our counterparts...Red Line Brig and 20 years at Portsmouth.



The Polish had a "rape van" at Bagram around 2009/2010. Their "punishment" was to get sent downrange to FOB Ghazni. Organized gang rapes on men and women alike and nothing happened.


----------



## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jun 25, 2018)

^Dude, WTF?!?!?!?!


----------



## BenjaminXMartinson (Jun 25, 2018)

whoa


----------



## Gunz (Jul 8, 2018)

This has blown up into a full-scale audit/investigation of SEAL Team Six, still ongoing, and why we haven't heard much lately. But our inferences from the earlier reports had credence. I suspect it will be a long time before this is wrapped up and anybody's prosecuted.

U.S. Military Launches Broad Investigation of SEAL Team 6 After Green Beret Killing in Mali


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 9, 2018)

That's a pretty dated article. Plus, The Intercept would love to see any US Military branch to be burned to the stake. They have a hard on for their willingness to say fuck you to the US Military.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 9, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> That's a pretty dated article. Plus, The Intercept would love to see any US Military branch to be burned to the stake. They have a hard on for their willingness to say fuck you to the US Military.




Holy crap, did I post an article from a Commie-Pinko source?? Shit, man, I'm sorry. Fuck. 

I couldn't find anything new but this article seemed to have information some of the other reports lacked, hence my share. In future I will be more discriminating.


----------



## AWP (Jul 9, 2018)

Despite the source, are the reports of the audit true?


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 10, 2018)

I hope it is.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 12, 2018)

I've been searching and the story has been remarkably quiet since those 2/8 reports of a large scale audit. What does it take, a book deal?


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 12, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> What does it take, a book deal?


Maybe the reports have not been released yet?

No sarcasm intended.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 12, 2018)

.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 13, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Maybe the reports have not been released yet?
> 
> No sarcasm intended.



Rog that.

My point being we usually know _too much_ about anything Team Six. Somebody somewhere has finally been able to keep the lid on. That's a good thing.


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 13, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Rog that.
> 
> My point being we usually know _too much_ about anything Team Six. Somebody somewhere has finally been able to keep the lid on. *That's a good thing*.



For us.  Not always a good sign for them (or anyone undergoing an investigation.  Due process and all).
Mustering all the objectivity I can, that unit seems to be snakebit.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 17, 2018)

Dedolph's MMA fight record is 1-5-1-D. That's one win, five losses, one draw...and Done.

Then he became a Navy SEAL. He shoulda stayed in MMA. If you kill someone there it's a workplace accident.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 7, 2018)

*- UPDATE -*

Navy Completes Inquiry Into Strangling Death of Army Green Beret in Mali


----------



## Gunz (Nov 7, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> *- UPDATE -*
> 
> Navy Completes Inquiry Into Strangling Death of Army Green Beret in Mali




Place your wagers, gentlemen. I would expect a decision to prosecute. The Navy may balk at dragging this embarrassing case on for many more months...but then again, at the top of the chain, there is Mattis.


----------



## RoosterJ (Nov 8, 2018)

Based off of everything published, I would be surprised if they didn't move to prosecute.

It is a shame all around.


----------



## Cookie_ (Nov 15, 2018)

The Two SEALs and two Raiders are being charged with murder

The Daily Beast: Navy SEALs, Marines Charged With Green Beret Logan Melgar’s Murder.
Navy SEALs, Marines Charged With Green Beret’s Murder


----------



## Gunz (Nov 15, 2018)

What a fucking disgrace.


----------



## Gordus (Nov 15, 2018)

Man, what a tragic and terrible event .... 
I'm sorry for your loss.


----------



## MikeDelta (Nov 15, 2018)

U-G-L-Y-...so damn unfortunate


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 15, 2018)

If it's true and they are convicted, they need to be given the death penalty, no questions asked.


----------



## Kraut783 (Nov 15, 2018)

it made Dateline news tonight.

Two Navy SEALs, two Marines charged in murder of Green Beret


----------



## AWP (Nov 15, 2018)

We went from two SEAL's up to two SEAL's plus two Raiders.

On a 6-man team according to the article.

What was going on with the 6th man? How do you have 4 doing illegal stuff, the 5th knows, and the 6th was somehow in the dark? That's a hard narrative to swallow. Why do I have a feeling the article only scratched the surface of the entire story? Unreal.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 15, 2018)

It


AWP said:


> We went from two SEAL's up to two SEAL's plus two Raiders.
> 
> On a 6-man team according to the article.
> 
> What was going on with the 6th man? How do you have 4 doing illegal stuff, the 5th knows, and the 6th was somehow in the dark? That's a hard narrative to swallow. Why do I have a feeling the article only scratched the surface of the entire story? Unreal.



It was probably the lieutenant.


----------



## Teufel (Nov 15, 2018)

AWP said:


> We went from two SEAL's up to two SEAL's plus two Raiders.
> 
> On a 6-man team according to the article.
> 
> What was going on with the 6th man? How do you have 4 doing illegal stuff, the 5th knows, and the 6th was somehow in the dark? That's a hard narrative to swallow. Why do I have a feeling the article only scratched the surface of the entire story? Unreal.


He could have been in another room violating his combatting trafficking in persons online training.


----------



## AWP (Nov 15, 2018)

And the guy has to go back knowing he...knew and didn't say anything? Was assigned to gather intel and couldn't see what was going on in his team house making him the worst intel (or whatever his specialty) guy on the planet? Had to go back to his unit where they now know him to be..."less than stellar?" And on and on.

So many ugly questions. What a shit show.


----------



## Teufel (Nov 15, 2018)




----------



## Gunz (Nov 16, 2018)

AWP said:


> And the guy has to go back knowing he...knew and didn't say anything? Was assigned to gather intel and couldn't see what was going on in his team house making him the worst intel (or whatever his specialty) guy on the planet? Had to go back to his unit where they now know him to be..."less than stellar?" And on and on.
> 
> So many ugly questions. What a shit show.



Some of this stuff will unravel during the proceedings. Obviously prosecutors know a lot more than what's been released publicly. No doubt the identity of the Raiders will soon come out. (I'm surprised their names haven't been released: no reason at this point to protect them). This whole fucking thing is such an abomination.


----------



## DozerB (Nov 16, 2018)

When this first came out, I thought it was pure SOFREP-esque gossipy nonsense. It is truly heartbreaking to see this unravel. Prayers for the SSG's family and teammates.


----------



## Cookie_ (Nov 16, 2018)

I'm just hoping the reason nothing has been said about the other GB is because he wasn't involved with the shit. 
Best case scenario is he's the guy who was the "unnamed source" from the article last year that broke the news the two shitbirds from DEVGRU were skimming off the top until Melgar caught them.


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 16, 2018)

Cookie_101st said:


> I'm just hoping the reason nothing has been said about the other GB is because he wasn't involved with the shit.
> *Best case scenario is he's the guy who was the "unnamed source"* from the article last year that broke the news the two shitbirds from DEVGRU were skimming off the top until Melgar caught them.



That's what I am hoping/assuming.


----------



## Hillclimb (Nov 16, 2018)

You know the UCMJ/system is quick to drop the gavel/kick guys out of country/ruin careers, and slow to clear their names. Hoping it isnt true about the Raiders involved and holding my breath until after the proceedings. I cant imagine any of my brothers willingly being involved.


----------



## Gunpowder (Nov 16, 2018)

This hurts...eating our own...


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 16, 2018)

Gunpowder said:


> This hurts...eating our own...


I hate this thread and its existence.


----------



## Teufel (Nov 16, 2018)

Hillclimb said:


> You know the UCMJ/system is quick to drop the gavel/kick guys out of country/ruin careers, and slow to clear their names. Hoping it isnt true about the Raiders involved and holding my breath until after the proceedings. I cant imagine any of my brothers willingly being involved.


I honestly don't think anyone went into this situation with murder in their hearts. I imagine they slid down this slippery slope a step at a time each time they stole money from their operational funds, and whatever else they were doing, until they found themselves having to physically intimidate one of their team mates, and eventually murder him, to cover up their criminal activity. It's easy to see how this played out. I can only imagine how much they panicked when they thought about how this would affect their careers and their families.  They probably should have thought about that when they started down this road and not when they reached their unfortunate destination. Keep in mind that the two suspected murderers are an E7 and an E6 and think about how those two senior NCOs adversely influenced the servicemembers around them, who undoubtedly looked up to these senior special operators. This is a truly tragic story but I still wonder if this could have all been avoided if they lived in a standards based culture that didn't tolerate misconduct and held individuals accountable when they violated the UCMJ.


----------



## Gunz (Nov 17, 2018)

I think it's also possible that one of these defendants might have been a bad character to begin with and not wholly a product of his environment. Just facilitated by it and able to influence others.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 7, 2018)

*- UPDATE -*

Hearings Postponed for SEALs, Marines Charged in Green Beret's Death

NORFOLK -- A preliminary hearing for two Virginia Beach-based Navy SEALs and two Marines Raiders charged in connection with the death of an Army Green Beret in Africa in 2017 has been pushed to 2019.

Article 32 hearings, the military's equivalent to a civilian preliminary court hearing, were originally set for Dec. 10 at Naval Station Norfolk. The Navy did not say why the hearings were pushed back but indicated it expected to hear the case in March.


----------



## MikeDelta (Dec 7, 2018)

@Ooh-Rah 

I’m not sure if it’s because I’ve always admired SOF, or I hate to see any good team getting a big dose of unwarranted SUCK. But this whole thing really bums me the ‘F’ out. Can’t imagine what the families and Junior NCOs must be dealing with. Not to mention the potential traction that the bad guys may now gain in this AO.

If anything good can possibly come out of this, it will be to avoid any such similar incident in the future. UCMJ and military  bearing was fouled hard and that always runs up and down the COC.

My sincere condolences to anyone who has to deal with this unfathomable shit storm.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 3, 2019)

*Update* 

Hearings in case of Navy SEAL, Marine Raiders who allegedly murdered Green Beret delayed

_A preliminary hearing for two Virginia Beach-based Navy SEALs and two Marine Raiders charged in connection with the 2017 death of an Army Green Beret in Africa has once again been pushed back.

The Article 32 hearings were scheduled for next week.

In a news release, the Navy said a new date has not been scheduled._


----------



## Gunz (Mar 5, 2019)

Their lawyers can file continuance after continuance...it could be a year before this case gets to court.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 8, 2019)

*- UPDATE -*

A SEAL and a Marine Raider seek plea deals in Green Beret murder case

Two of the four special operators charged with murder in the strangulation death of a Green Beret staff sergeant are negotiating plea deals with government prosecutors.

The Daily Beast reported earlier this week that Navy SEAL Chief Petty Officer Adam C. Matthews and Marine Raider Staff Sgt. Kevin Maxwell are working out plea deals for the charges they face in connection with the death of Army Green Beret Staff Sgt. Logan Melgar, 34, in Bamako, Mali on June 4, 2017.

Military Times has verified the report through sources close to the investigation


----------



## Gunz (Mar 8, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> *- UPDATE -*
> 
> A SEAL and a Marine Raider seek plea deals in Green Beret murder case
> 
> ...




I guess Matthews and Maxwell had a come-to-Jesus moment and saw the writing on the wall. Better to squeal and get 20. I know it's been said before, but how enormously fucked up this is. 

S/Sgt Meglar's poor family having to deal with this.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 8, 2019)

I get the plea deal,  but they should hammer the fuck out of everyone involved. Fucking disgusting is what it is...


----------



## Teufel (Mar 8, 2019)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I get the plea deal,  but they should hammer the fuck out of everyone involved. Fucking disgusting is what it is...



They need to trim down the accused list so their lawyers don’t try to get them off by pinning all of it on each other.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 8, 2019)

Teufel said:


> They need to trim down the accused list so their lawyers don’t try to get them off by pinning all of it on each other.



Yeah I get it, I just don't think anyone involved should walk away light.


----------



## LibraryLady (Mar 8, 2019)

Why am I not surprised this happened after hearing of the continuance.

LL


----------



## Brill (Mar 8, 2019)

Execute the guilty. Our SOF community deserves swift justice.


----------



## Gunz (Mar 8, 2019)

lindy said:


> Execute the guilty. Our SOF community deserves swift justice.



These are Special Operations senior NCOs. We hold them to high standards. Those that betray those standards need to be held accountable for the sake of all the honorable members of that elite community.


----------



## Teufel (Mar 9, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> These are Special Operations senior NCOs. We hold them to high standards. Those that betray those standards need to be held accountable for the sake of all the honorable members of that elite community.



I think a general lack of standards, or a cultural disregard for standards at least, set the conditions that led to this tragic event. This probably wouldn’t have happened if nobody was skimming from their operational funds, and it wouldn’t shock me if this wasn’t an isolated SOF embezzlement case.


----------



## Teufel (Mar 9, 2019)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Yeah I get it, I just don't think anyone involved should walk away light.



I’m not a JAG/SJA but I would have dangled the death penalty in front of everyone to see who folds for a “lesser” sentence. I suspect that all participants are going to take unaccompanied orders to Fort Leavenworth for an extended tour. Some may join former Major Nadal on death row.


----------



## AWP (Mar 9, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> These are Special Operations senior NCOs. We hold them to high standards. Those that betray those standards need to be held accountable for the sake of all the honorable members of that elite community.



Standards? They killed a brother. That goes WAY beyond any standards in my book. Stealing, drug dealing...those are standards. Killing one of their own? That's beyond the pale.


----------



## Box (Mar 9, 2019)

We keep using that word "standards" - I do not think that word means what we think it means
at least not any more


----------



## Teufel (Mar 9, 2019)

Box said:


> We keep using that word "standards" - I do not think that word means what we think it means
> at least not any more


How about, “standards are no longer uniformly applied across all units”?


----------



## Gunz (Mar 29, 2019)

AWP said:


> I doubt we'll ever know and I think if we did the whole tale would be terrifying and depressing.



There's a book deal in that sentence for a disgruntled SEAL. Problem is, he'd be a candidate for a "practice" MMA chokehold.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 17, 2019)

http://va.newsrepublic.net/s/NhFQdN

Looks like there is a lot more to this story.


----------



## AWP (Apr 17, 2019)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> http://va.newsrepublic.net/s/NhFQdN
> 
> Looks like there is a lot more to this story.



What a dumpster fire. Sheesh.

Blue skies.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 17, 2019)

Jesus.

_After a long night of drinking in Mali's capital, two Navy SEALs and two Marine Raiders smashed their way into Army Staff Sgt. Logan Melgar's room with a *sledgehammer*.

Armed with duct tape, they had a goal, two of the alleged assailants recalled: Teach the Green Beret soldier a lesson for leaving them behind in traffic on the way to a party at the French Embassy_


----------



## Box (Apr 17, 2019)

sledgehammers and duct tape - to "teach a guy a lesson"

I'd like to see the POI for this "lesson" they planned on teaching.   Closing in on two years now and so far we still haven't really made it past the stage of slinging mud over whose behavior was the least acceptable prior to to going to Melgar's room with a sledgehammer and some duct tape.

Disparage the WISR effort, get a DUI, or make a slur about sexual orientation - and your ass will be burned to the ground in a matter of weeks.
Two years this shit show has been going on and they are still arguing over who had the biggest problem with whiskey and whores.
...but hey, we dont want to damage any unit reputations over just one guy

"Shameful" is a word that seems to fall a little short of the mark.


----------



## DA SWO (Apr 17, 2019)

Box said:


> sledgehammers and duct tape - to "teach a guy a lesson"
> 
> I'd like to see the POI for this "lesson" they planned on teaching.   Closing in on two years now and so far we still haven't really made it past the stage of slinging mud over whose behavior was the least acceptable prior to to going to Melgar's room with a sledgehammer and some duct tape.
> 
> ...


I think "Big Navy" has wanted to hang someone in the SpecWarCom Community for some time, with a ST-6 member being the ultimate target.
They are going at a snails pace on this to ensure no one can wiggle out.
My take on this is the former MMA SEAL is going down, but I don't know what the deal is with the GySgt.  Will have to wait and see how it plays out.


----------



## Devildoc (Apr 17, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> I think "Big Navy" has wanted to hang someone in the SpecWarCom Community for some time, with a ST-6 member being the ultimate target.
> They are going at a snails pace on this to ensure no one can wiggle out.
> My take on this is the former MMA SEAL is going down, but I don't know what the deal is with the GySgt.  Will have to wait and see how it plays out.



NAVSPECWAR has colored outside the lines for so long they routinely thumb their noses at Big Navy.  I am certain Big Navy has a hard-on in this case.


----------



## Gunz (Apr 17, 2019)

Whatever...it's like some fucking juvenile delinquent Saturday night trailer trash meth-fueled circle jerk. Can't believe these motherfuckers were SOF.


----------



## Gunz (Apr 18, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> I think "Big Navy" has wanted to hang someone in the SpecWarCom Community for some time, with a ST-6 member being the ultimate target.
> They are going at a snails pace on this to ensure no one can wiggle out.
> My take on this is the former MMA SEAL is going down, but I don't know what the deal is with the GySgt.  Will have to wait and see how it plays out.





Devildoc said:


> NAVSPECWAR has colored outside the lines for so long they routinely thumb their noses at Big Navy.  I am certain Big Navy has a hard-on in this case.



Yes, sirs...but in light of the circumstances of this case (and other cases in recent years) isn't it long overdue for Big Navy to stomp some ass in their SPECWAR community?

I'd expect CMC and MajGen Yoo to be taking a pretty hard look at behavior within MARSOC right now.


----------



## Devildoc (Apr 18, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> *Yes, sirs...but in light of the circumstances of this case (and other cases in recent years) isn't it long overdue for Big Navy to stomp some ass in their SPECWAR community?*
> 
> I'd expect CMC and MajGen Yoo to be taking a pretty hard look at behavior within MARSOC right now.



_Especially_ in light of this case, absolutely.  They don't want to get anything wrong that can be overturned or appealed.


----------



## Viper1 (Apr 18, 2019)

What an absolute travesty. This one hurts all of us.


----------



## Devildoc (Apr 18, 2019)

Viper1 said:


> What an absolute travesty. This one hurts all of us.



It absolutely does, which (I think) is why Big Navy is running this case slowly and deliberately, to make sure it is done right.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 18, 2019)

Between this and that Gallagher fuckery, I don't see how big Navy can avoid doing some major changes in SPECWAR. I mean, some heads need to roll, some commanders need to be relieved and made the example. Either they change their culture or they will eventually go away. I mean, how can you trust them when you got guys killing dudes from other branches. Or dudes ratting on dudes within their own community, war crimes, while team daddy is threatening his own people's lives, dudes being busted with dope, etc, etc, etc.

Who wants to work around that shit...


----------



## Poccington (Apr 18, 2019)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> http://va.newsrepublic.net/s/NhFQdN
> 
> Looks like there is a lot more to this story.



Fucking scumbags.


----------



## Blizzard (Apr 18, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> Whatever...it's like some fucking juvenile delinquent Saturday night trailer trash meth-fueled circle jerk. Can't believe these motherfuckers were SOF.





			
				SFGate Article said:
			
		

> http://va.newsrepublic.net/s/NhFQdN
> In the weeks leading up to assault, Melgar brought foreigners to the residence, the other soldier said. He added that Melgar had engaged in "frat-like" behavior and had acted in ways that got them both "uninvited" from events at the U.S. Embassy. At the request of military officials due to security concerns, The Washington Post is not identifying several other Americans who have not been charged with a crime...
> 
> "Logan, Tony, everyone had a turn at it," the other soldier said of excessive drinking, acknowledging that he also consumed alcohol on occasion.
> ...


Sounds like a shit show all the way around (the general culture in Mali).


----------



## Gunz (Apr 18, 2019)

Blizzard said:


> Sounds like a shit show all the way around (the general culture in Mali).



Well....yeah. You can have a great fucking time in Bamako. Lots of nightlife. And it sounds like these hardened warriors were hardened partiers. The clubs get going around midnight and you can fucking burn the napalm til 0600. Lots of Street Treats.




There was probably a lot of quality cooter at that embassy party. But the Green Beret lost the SEALs and Raiders. Maybe he knew what kind of people they were. Maybe he was going to represent his branch of service in an honorable way. Whatever the case, he got killed for it.


----------



## Kaldak (May 10, 2019)

*UPDATE:*

Navy SEAL charged with murder of Green Beret reaches plea agreement with prosecutors

Looks like one of the accused is coming forward formally. He's apologizing, apparently, for what they, apparently, always said was hazing.

Tragic situation, with a tragic end. Hopefully it brings closure to family and friends alike.

Either way, still an awful set of events.


----------



## Brill (May 10, 2019)

Kaldak said:


> *UPDATE:*
> 
> Navy SEAL charged with murder of Green Beret reaches plea agreement with prosecutors
> 
> ...



No, he’s saying his ass. A 3rd Grouper was senselessly murdered and the Chief had an obligation to stop it.  How in hell is this justice?



> Chief Special Warfare Officer Adam Matthews has reached a pretrial agreement under which *he will be referred to a special court-martial* rather than a general one, said his attorney Grover Baxley. *The maximum penalty that a special court-martial can impose is one year in prison, reduction in rank to E-1, forfeiture of two-thirds pay for one year, and a bad conduct discharge.*


----------



## AWP (May 10, 2019)

"I helped kill a fellow American and all I got was a year in jail, a fine, and this lousy t-shirt."


----------



## Box (May 10, 2019)

Is anyone REALLY surprised that these guys aren't getting any real punishment?

I'm certainly not


----------



## GOTWA (May 10, 2019)

AWP said:


> "I helped kill a fellow American and all I got was a year in jail, a fine, and this lousy t-shirt."


Deployments last longer than that maximum prison sentence...


----------



## Board and Seize (May 11, 2019)

Maybe I'm the only one here who's been busted down...

Not to say that this plea is "justice", but (assuming the max penalty spelled out above) reduction to PVT (from E7!) *plus* 2/3 pay forfeiture for a year *plus* a year in prison *plus* a BCD is hardly a slap on the wrist.  Chief's career and professional life is done.  And anyone he's supporting financially (family?) is now proper fucked.

Again, not saying this somehow balances the scales for his involvement in the murder/manslaughter of a Green Beret, just pointing out that this is no slap on the wrist.


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 11, 2019)

Yeah, but we're talking about a murder here.


----------



## GOTWA (May 11, 2019)

Board and Seize said:


> Maybe I'm the only one here who's been busted down...
> 
> Not to say that this plea is "justice", but (assuming the max penalty spelled out above) reduction to PVT (from E7!) *plus* 2/3 pay forfeiture for a year *plus* a year in prison *plus* a BCD is hardly a slap on the wrist.  Chief's career and professional life is done.  And anyone he's supporting financially (family?) is now proper fucked.
> 
> Again, not saying this somehow balances the scales for his involvement in the murder/manslaughter of a Green Beret, just pointing out that this is no slap on the wrist.



Just for giggles, what's your idea of getting off easy after committing murder/manslaughter?


----------



## Brill (May 11, 2019)

Board and Seize said:


> Maybe I'm the only one here who's been busted down...
> 
> Not to say that this plea is "justice", but (assuming the max penalty spelled out above) reduction to PVT (from E7!) *plus* 2/3 pay forfeiture for a year *plus* a year in prison *plus* a BCD is hardly a slap on the wrist.  Chief's career and professional life is done.  And anyone he's supporting financially (family?) is now proper fucked.



I am more sympathetic towards Melgar’s wife and son with regard to financial support.


----------



## Board and Seize (May 11, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> Yeah, but we're talking about a murder here.





GOTWA said:


> Just for giggles, what's your idea of getting off easy after committing murder/manslaughter?



Again, as I lead that comment with, I'm not saying it was the due justice - just that his punishment is *far* from the slap on the wrist that folks are calling it.


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 11, 2019)

Board and Seize said:


> Again, as I lead that comment with, I'm not saying it was the due justice - just that his punishment is *far* from the slap on the wrist that folks are calling it.


No, the demotion and forfeiture of pay doesn't come into this.  It's a year in confinement for a murder.  If it was five years, we'd be talking much different.  I get it, you need someone to roll, but this is a legit slap on the wrist.  One year, is not enough time to even reflect on how fucked of a person he is.  

Considering that anyone who murders a brother in arms should be hung. (IMO)


----------



## Devildoc (May 11, 2019)

I have mixed feelings. While I feel it is little, too little, the end result of a big chicken dinner exclusive of hard time will severely restrict his post-military life. Between that and the notoriety, he'll be lucky if he works at a convenience store.  That said, I am super torqued he's not getting any significant time.

I have to rationalize this that part of the plea is his rolling on other evidence against other people.


----------



## DA SWO (May 11, 2019)

Board and Seize said:


> Maybe I'm the only one here who's been busted down...
> 
> Not to say that this plea is "justice", but (assuming the max penalty spelled out above) reduction to PVT (from E7!) *plus* 2/3 pay forfeiture for a year *plus* a year in prison *plus* a BCD is hardly a slap on the wrist.  Chief's career and professional life is done.  And anyone he's supporting financially (family?) is now proper fucked.
> 
> Again, not saying this somehow balances the scales for his involvement in the murder/manslaughter of a Green Beret, just pointing out that this is no slap on the wrist.





GOTWA said:


> Just for giggles, what's your idea of getting off easy after committing murder/manslaughter?


As someone who has served as a Juror I can say this is lighter then he should/could have received.
E-1 makes a lot less money then an E-7, so you are really looking at a 80-90% reduction. So his family is financially fucked is an understatement. His wife (or Ex) better have a nice job.  I would also guess he will be divorced within a year.
Year in prison only if he is stupid, DOD generally paroles out at the 15% served mark, so 60 days is a probability.
The good news, he loses his clearance and VA Medical/burial bennies, loss of clearance will reduce his employment options. 
 I still think the SEAL Community will find a way to get him back on his feet.


----------



## GOTWA (May 11, 2019)

Plenty of people go to prison for murder and their felonies stick for a lifetime. Boohoo. However, don't we expect our community to hold to a higher standard, and the SOF community to one even higher? This isn't an average drug deal gone wrong or gang shooting. It's trust within a community that was lost and for that...a year doesn't cut it for me.


----------



## Devildoc (May 11, 2019)

@DA SWO , I have no doubt the SEAL protective association will step up.  It's what they do


----------



## Box (May 11, 2019)

There is the possibility that they went "easy" on him so he will flip on the others...
There are numerous conspirators that participated in this murder/hazing - maybe they are planning to stick it to the "next" one
...or not
Time will tell


----------



## Gunz (May 11, 2019)

Murder One in any DA's office in the country. But it won't happen here.

Andrew's copped a plea...but still insists it was an "accident."  So that means he's not going to rat out anybody for premeditated murder. That makes the plea deal worthless for anybody trying to get a murder conviction.


----------



## Kraut783 (May 11, 2019)

Box said:


> There is the possibility that they went "easy" on him so he will flip on the others...
> There are numerous conspirators that participated in this murder/hazing - maybe they are planning to stick it to the "next" one
> ...or not
> Time will tell



Wouldn't be the first time someone got a deal for their testimony, standard prosecution strategy. I'll wait to see how this shakes out....


----------



## DA SWO (May 11, 2019)

Box said:


> There is the possibility that they went "easy" on him so he will flip on the others...
> There are numerous conspirators that participated in this murder/hazing - maybe they are planning to stick it to the "next" one
> ...or not
> Time will tell


3 of the 4 have flipped.  
It looks like the Gy Sgt is all whose left.


----------



## Kraut783 (May 16, 2019)

*Navy SEAL pleads guilty in hazing death of Green Beret*

Navy SEAL pleads guilty in hazing death of a Green Beret


----------



## Bambi (May 16, 2019)

One thing I can't wrap my head around is how someone trained in hand to hand combat somehow "accidentally choked" the victim too hard. This whole situation is sad and should of NEVER happened.


----------



## amlove21 (May 16, 2019)

So this premeditated and planned act of violence was.... hazing. 

What the literal fuck is going on with the military’s judicial system right now.


----------



## Marauder06 (May 17, 2019)

I read this article earlier today, it read in part (emphasis added):




> Melgar





> died on June 4, 2017, when Matthews and three other U.S. service members_* hazed him with the permission of Melgar's team lead*_*er*.



I must have missed that tidbit earlier.

What kind of team leader green lights what is essentially a blanket party for one of their own guys, outsourcing the "remediation" (term used in the story) to not only a whole other unit, but to whole other services?  This was a combined and joint beat down, it seems weird to me that the SEALs would have gone to an SF team leader (not sure if they mean the officer or the team sergeant) and say "Hey we want to beat the shit out of one of your guys" and that team leader being OK with it.  

This whole thing is bizarre.


----------



## DZ (May 17, 2019)

Reduction to E5, bad conduct discharge, and only one year in prison? How the fuck is this justice?!

The more I read about this case, the more pissed off I get. I'm with his mother. Someone had better burn for what they did to Logan. 

Since when does an experienced "fighter" put someone in a blood choke for 3-5 min. I'm pretty sure some dip shit private knows what happens when you choke someone for 3-5 min, so how do supposedly elite sEaLs get away with it being an "accident"?

What happened about these fuckers skimming Opfund? Is that getting swept under the rug?

I also want to know why the other SF guy green lit the whole thing, if that's actually what happened. This whole thing is a mess.


----------



## Gunz (May 17, 2019)

_*"Matthews suggested that the Marines felt Melgar had abandoned them in an urban setting that has been the target of terrorist activity." *_

This is such lame-ass bullshit. They were on their way to a _fucking embassy party_ and were following Melgar and they lost him...or he lost them. 

The particular "urban setting that has been a target of terrorist activity" could describe any city in the world, New York, Paris, London. It's not like he unassed the AO in the middle of a firefight. 

These guys were partying their asses off in Bamako, which, as I've mentioned, has a healthy nightlife and it wouldn't surprise me to learn that they were using the cashbox for booze, drugs and hookers.

Melgar wasn't a "team player" because he wasn't a thief like them...so they fucking murdered him.


----------



## Box (May 17, 2019)

It sounds like Logan Melgars team leader should be hung at high noon for green lighting his death...
...or maybe
Just maybe - some body is full of shit


----------



## Cookie_ (May 17, 2019)

From the Army Times



> After the party snub, the four defendants and others hatched a plan to bust into Logan’s room, subdue him, tie him up and video record the incident to humiliate him in order to put him in line with what they said was expected of him when working with the other members of the unit.
> 
> But they were not in his chain of command.
> 
> So Matthews said he told DeDolph to get permission from Logan’s team leader Morris. Matthews testified that DeDolph woke Morris just before 5 a.m. Morris allegedly said yes and then went back to sleep.



I'm gonna hazard a guess that asking for permission was more "Hey, we're gonna go fuck with Logan a bit" and less "we have this whole plan to tie up and haze Logan, you cool with that?"


----------



## AWP (May 17, 2019)

The defense is hilarious. "Yeah, we knew we were breaking the law, but we didn't think it would go this far. So, let us go because we really meant to break lesser laws, not murder the guy."

I hope someone shanks these fucks.


----------



## Kraut783 (May 17, 2019)

WTF? is this fucking college?


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 17, 2019)

Someone gonna need to pay the blood price.


----------



## Marauder06 (May 17, 2019)

I'm really interested to hear what the team leader has to say about how the "permission" thing went down.


----------



## Blizzard (May 18, 2019)

A few different stories and a ton of  speculation/allegation here.  Story certianly looks much different than first reported, so who knows; clearly a lot of fuckery.

It'd be interesting to know the reputations of the various dudes involved, including Melgar and his team leader, prior to this incident.


----------



## Box (Jun 5, 2019)

The entire process has become so convoluted that it is nearly impossible to follow.


----------



## Brill (Jun 5, 2019)

Box said:


> The entire process has become so convoluted that it is nearly impossible to follow.



We need an ANB chart.


----------



## Cookie_ (Jun 5, 2019)

What in the everloving fuck? One of the Raiders said in a stipulation of facts statement they planned to have a LN sexually assault Melgar after they tied him up and choked him out. From the Washington Post:



> Four elite U.S. Special Operations troops charged in the death of a Green Beret soldier in Mali plotted to record him being sexually assaulted as part of a plan to embarrass him through hazing, according to one of the accused service members.
> 
> Marine Staff Sgt. Kevin Maxwell said in a written stipulation of facts submitted for the case that the plan included bursting into Army Staff Sgt. Logan Melgar’s bedroom in the capital city of Bamako with a sledgehammer, choking him until he fell unconscious, tying him up and recording the sexual assault on video. The service members involved had just returned from a night of drinking, he said.
> 
> ...



I don't think words can accurately capture what these guys deserve if they truly planned to do this to one of there own.


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 5, 2019)

Cookie_ said:


> What in the everloving fuck? One of the Raiders said in a stipulation of facts statement they planned to have a LN sexually assault Melgar after they tied him up and choked him out. From the Washington Post:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think words can accurately capture what these guys deserve if they truly planned to do this to one of there own.


let's do something so fucking stupid they make it an episode of NCIS.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 5, 2019)

Cookie_ said:


> What in the everloving fuck? One of the Raiders said in a stipulation of facts statement they planned to have a LN sexually assault Melgar after they tied him up and choked him out. From the Washington Post:
> 
> 
> 
> I don't think words can accurately capture what these guys deserve if they truly planned to do this to one of there own.



Those dudes should face a fucking firing squad...


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 5, 2019)

Just when you thought this situation couldn’t get more messed up...


----------



## Teufel (Jun 6, 2019)

This just went from terrible to unimaginably  horrific.


----------



## Gunz (Jun 6, 2019)

Jesus H Christ. Some sick, twisted shit. Hell ain't hot enough for these motherfuckers. What a disgrace.


----------



## Box (Jun 6, 2019)

hazing

its just an innocent hazing gone wrong
you know, sort of like getting blood wings after airborne school - and the pin hole gets infected
and then the pin hole becomes septic
and then the patient becomes infectious
and then others start getting sick
and then it becomes an epidemic
next thing you know, bubonic plaque isn't so scary any more

hazing

whoever it was in the DoD chain of command that ever allowed such bullshit use of the English language to occur that allowed so much as one single participant to get off under the guise of "hazing"
....wait -  whayt I meant was, whoever it was in the DoD that even entertained idea of accepting "hazing" to even enter into the conversation, has the honor of a loose stool left uncovered in the center of a patrol base.
I would like to formally invite that turd to go and eat a bag of dicks

Hazing - 

For those that think I have over used the word "hazing" - imagine one of your loved ones being subjected to this line of horseshit and then being forced to accept the UCMJ to float the narrative that is was just a hazing incident gone bad.
...because the tip of our nations spear selects such sharply honed experts that they thought this was "hazing"
This is nothing short of institutional cowardice serving as a demonstration of why we are repeatedly subjected to shit like the Army Values Card, or countless days of mandatory training where we are taught that sex trafficking is bad - or congressional mandated ethics training - or getting upset when even the most far left congresspeople refer to SOF as midnight death squads.  

Hazing


----------



## amlove21 (Jun 6, 2019)

Box said:


> ...quote...


I read and re-read your post. 

What is your point? 

I can’t even begin to understand. Institutional cowardice? Useless CBTs? Who refers to SOF as ‘death squads’? Bubonic plague? 

Can you boil down what you mean here?


----------



## Kaldak (Jun 6, 2019)

I think he means calling this incident "hazing" is a disservice to the family and memory of the deceased. 

And was using hyperbole to demonstrate it.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 6, 2019)

This whole fiasco is disgusting and disturbing. They killed a good honest soldier with intent to humiliate him, just because they didn't like him. And they are getting off light...  

Firing squad is almost too good,  they should honestly be hung as criminals,  but wasting my time,  they will all walk in short order and time,  probably get a fucking pardon in ten or fifteen years and everything will be as it is. 

SSG Logan Melgar was too good for them,  so they fucking killed him.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jun 7, 2019)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> This whole fiasco is disgusting and disturbing. They killed a good honest soldier with intent to humiliate him, just because they didn't like him. And they are getting off light...
> 
> Firing squad is almost too good,  they should honestly be hung as criminals,  but wasting my time,  they will all walk in short order and time,  probably get a fucking pardon in ten or fifteen years and everything will be as it is.
> 
> SSG Logan Melgar was too good for them,  so they fucking killed him.



If he was that good of a soldier, why would his team leader approve their course of action?


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 7, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> If he was that good of a soldier, why would his team leader approve their course of action?


You believe that?

Hey, we are going to have a local ass-rape your guy; you cool with that.

Sure, go for it.

You believe that conversation happened?


----------



## Devildoc (Jun 7, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> You believe that?
> 
> Hey, we are going to have a local ass-rape your guy; you cool with that.
> 
> ...



I don't know that I believe it, but it's being reported.

Raiders, SEALs planned sexual assault in Green Beret hazing that led to homicide, Marine says

"The foursome, according to Matthews, then got duct tape and a sledgehammer, awakened Melgar’s team leader, a Special Forces sergeant first class who lived with Melgar and the SEALs in shared housing to ask permission. The team leader granted permission but declined to participate and went back to sleep."

Vis-à-vis the Gallagher case, right now there seems to be a heavy delivery of he-said/he-said in the media, and we know what is reported ain't necessarily "the truth."


----------



## Cookie_ (Jun 7, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> If he was that good of a soldier, why would his team leader approve their course of action?



That's assuming his team leader was told what they exactly what they wanted to do.

If you were to wake me up early as shit and say "Hey cookie, SSG x ditched us at a party, so we're gonna go fuck with him" I'd probably have said go for it prior to this case. I'd be thinking it'd be some juvenile stuff like ducttaping him to his bed, not attempting to have an LN rape him.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 7, 2019)

I agree.  It's likely the team leader was tired, it's possible he had been drinking, and I doubt the perpetrators laid out exactly what they planned to do to his guy.  It also seems likely that the perpetrators simply interpreted the team leaders's response--whatever it was--as permission, even if it was something as simple as, "you guys do what you're going to do" or whatever.

I'd REALLY like to hear the team leader's version of events.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 7, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> If he was that good of a soldier, why would his team leader approve their course of action?



1) No TL would have approved such an event. "Yeah you other fuck ups, go fuck my guy up", I cannot begin to explain how stupid a theory that is. 

2) If the TL did approve it, his ass should be charged as well and his Tab stripped. 

3) That's a dicked up question dude. By all accounts Melgar, was staying out of trouble and out of these guys bullshit.  Reported they stole op funds,  he wouldn't go get fucked up with them and party, etc.  So they broke into his room and killed him with the intent to have him raped by a local...


----------



## Gunz (Jun 7, 2019)

Maxwell and Mathews have both copped pleas for this _*"juvenile hazing attempt gone wrong."*_   Maxwell (the Raider) will likely get three years; Mathews (the SEAL) will probably get off with a year. Apparently they're going to testify against DeDolph (the SEAL) and Madera-Rodriguez (the Raider).

These guys have invented so much false narrative in the course of this investigation, "Team Leader approved" is just part of it. @Cookie_ probably has the scenario about right. "Hey, we're gonna go give Melgar a tickle attack,* okay?"

(*Not to be confused with differential cryptanalysis. )


----------



## Cookie_ (Jun 7, 2019)

Maxwell got 4 years, reduction to PVT, and bad conduct discharge.

U.S. Marine gets 4 years in hazing case that left Green Beret dead

Also from this link, an example of the "pranks" these guys were playing 



> In one, a Marine was taped in a sleeping bag that was then taped to the grille of a Humvee and driven on a security patrol, the Marine, whose name was sealed, said. He also said he was aware of incidents in which Marines were taped between mattresses and thrown from a second floor balcony.


----------



## Grunt (Jun 7, 2019)

From this point onward, they need to be referred to as "murderers" since that is what they are by virtue of their actions.

Liars lie and murderers murder. The worst part of this sentencing is the fact that they are too light and aren't severe enough. They will never pay enough for what they did.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jun 7, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> You believe that?
> 
> Hey, we are going to have a local ass-rape your guy; you cool with that.
> 
> ...



Just going off reports. Are you saying the reports aren't true?


----------



## Gunz (Jun 7, 2019)

Cookie_ said:


> Maxwell got 4 years, reduction to PVT, and bad conduct discharge.
> 
> U.S. Marine gets 4 years in hazing case that left Green Beret dead
> 
> Also from this link, an example of the "pranks" these guys were playing




4 years and a BC. He got off lucky.

The way this bullshit is sizing up, I doubt if anybody gets more than ten years hard time.


----------



## Teufel (Jun 7, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> If he was that good of a soldier, why would his team leader approve their course of action?



That’s a good point. The best leaders frequently encourage their subordinates to beat and rape their under-performers. It’s an incredible professional development tool.


----------



## GOTWA (Jun 7, 2019)

Teufel said:


> That’s a good point. The best leaders frequently encourage their subordinates to best and rape their under-performers. It’s an incredible professional development tool.



A tool for every toolbox.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 7, 2019)

Teufel said:


> That’s a good point. The best leaders frequently encourage their subordinates to beat and rape their under-performers. It’s an incredible professional development tool.



Earned his right to wear a green beret and what made him a great soldier....


For fuck sake.


----------



## DZ (Jun 7, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> If he was that good of a soldier, why would his team leader approve their course of action?


Dude, what the fuck? That has to be the dumbest thing I've read from a regular poster on the site..


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 7, 2019)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Earned his right to wear a green beret and what made him a great soldier....
> 
> 
> For fuck sake.


Sarcasm is not your greatest strength, just saying...


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 7, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> Sarcasm is not your greatest strength, just saying...


Probably so,  but whatever.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jun 7, 2019)

DeadZeppelin said:


> Dude, what the fuck? That has to be the dumbest thing I've read from a regular poster on the site..



Again, that's what was reported about a month ago. There is probably more to the story than him leaving the guys behind at a movie. 

Does that warrant hazing someone to death? Absolutely not, but given the more recent reports about Marines being total jack asses with regards to other incidents, I doubt this was a segregated incident.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 7, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> Again, that's what was reported about a month ago. There is probably more to the story than him leaving the guys behind at a movie.
> 
> Does that warrant hazing someone to death? Absolutely not, but given the more recent reports about Marines being total jack asses with regards to other incidents, I doubt this was a segregated incident.


Man, I get it,  but honestly I am no one to eat any bullshit.  Two dudes fucked off and ratted out the truth for fuck off sentences. That question was fucked... 

I really can't engage you other than,  wrong is wrong and right is right. 

I'd never choke you out and have some LN rape you...


----------



## Teufel (Jun 8, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> Again, that's what was reported about a month ago. There is probably more to the story than him leaving the guys behind at a movie.
> 
> Does that warrant hazing someone to death? Absolutely not, but given the more recent reports about Marines being total jack asses with regards to other incidents, I doubt this was a segregated incident.



It’s a very tone deaf and frankly ignorant comment. The Navy times reported that information based on the testimony of...SSgt Melgar’s murderers. I saw nothing anywhere that credibly indicated that the victim of this heinous crime was a poor performer.  Even if he was, they should corrected his behavior with counseling and not rape/murder.

The TL may also have agreed to the hazing because he was complicit in whatever illegal activity the SEALs were participating in. Whatever his reason, I bet he regrets it now.


----------



## Gunz (Jun 8, 2019)

It all went to hell when the principal players realized the party/pussy potential of Bamako and the availability of unregulated cash.

And maybe TL was partying, too. I suspect Melgar quite possibly was the lone beacon of self-restraint and maturity amid a bunch of frat boys.


----------



## Brill (Jun 8, 2019)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I'd never choke you out and have some LN rape you...



Truth.


----------



## AWP (Jun 8, 2019)

Teufel said:


> That’s a good point. The best leaders frequently encourage their subordinates to beat and rape their under-performers. It’s an incredible professional development tool.


----------



## DZ (Jun 9, 2019)

So this isn't verifiable, but is coming from a former SF guy who knows SSG Melgar's wife very well, and this is a story she shared with him.


----------



## Gunz (Jun 9, 2019)

DeadZeppelin said:


> So this isn't verifiable, but is coming from a former SF guy who knows SSG Melgar's wife very well, and this is a story she shared with him.View attachment 28145



Fucked up beyond words.


----------



## AWP (Jun 9, 2019)

Let's say you discount half of @DeadZeppelin's post, this story has become such a monumental shit show...

How many SF soldiers are going downrange in small, joint teams like these and are NOT looking over their shoulders? Sure, every unit has it's "10%", but what are the odds that NSW's/ Team 6's and MARSOC's 10%'ers came together for this one deployment? How do you not sympathize with SF distrusting the other organizations? How do they (SF) not distrust the other units? You're a SEAL or Raider meeting your SF counterparts for the deployment...how does this not stick in the back of your mind as you shake the man's hand?

The second and third order effects from this case are staggering.


----------



## DZ (Jun 20, 2019)

@BloodStripe brought this to my attention today. Matthews admits to meeting with Logan's widow at a party at Shot Show under a fake name. The Daily Beast reports having obtained the texts of him asking to come to her room.

SEAL Who Attacked Green Beret Later Hit On His Widow


----------



## Gunz (Jun 20, 2019)

DeadZeppelin said:


> @BloodStripe brought this to my attention today. Matthews admits to meeting with Logan's widow at a party at Shot Show under a fake name. The Daily Beast reports having obtained the texts of him asking to come to her room.
> 
> SEAL Who Attacked Green Beret Later Hit On His Widow





_*“I've carried the weight of Staff Sgt. Melgar's death every minute of every day since that night in Mali,” Matthews said at the sentencing" *_

Such a heavy burden to bear while you're trying to sex up the widow of the man you murdered.


----------



## Box (Jun 20, 2019)

a heavy burden to bear while you're "*using a false name and lying about who you are*" to try and sex up the widow of the man you murdered 

the pinnacle of a life centered on being a self absobed shit stick


----------



## AWP (Jun 20, 2019)

Does anyone remember a murder case involving a SEAL that wasn't a shit show?

Yeah, me either...


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 3, 2019)

1)  go to Africa to investigate a major case that may involve SEALs and Marines murdering a Special Forces soldier
2) bang one of the witnesses
3) ...
4) profit make national news about it... and not in a good way

total clown shoes 

*link to story*

_"If you’ll pardon my French for a minute, what in the actual F---? A Green Beret gets strangled, and this guy goes and diddles one of the witnesses in the case he's supposed to be investigating? I’m sure it seemed like a good idea at the time, but anyone with an ounce of professionalism ought to know better than to let the downstairs head do the thinking on a damned murder investigation." _


----------



## LibraryLady (Aug 3, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> View attachment 28747


Nice shoes.

LL


----------



## AWP (Aug 3, 2019)

Between this and the Gallagher case, does anyone need a legal consultant?

And justice for all,

Marcia Clark and Chris Darden


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 3, 2019)

But really what in the fuck is actually going on with this case. I saw dudes get fried for much-much less stupid shit. These dudes murdered a green beret on a deployment, one of the SEAL-clowns trys to bang the widow, the NCIS dude is fucking a witness 1 year and 4 years for the fuck-wits who turned rat. WTF???


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 3, 2019)

Well at least they got time... the Army supply sergeant who fragged his commander and another officer with a claymore in Iraq back in 2005 offered to plead guilty with parole after 10 years... the convening authority refused, the case went to trial, and --PLOT TWIST-- the dirt bag skated.

He escaped justice but not karma and he's dead now, but these guys had all kinds of things going in their favor and still couldn't land the conviction. So this isn't just a Navy problem.

Deaths of Phillip Esposito and Louis Allen - Wikipedia


----------



## Gunz (Aug 3, 2019)

From the Havok Journal article:

_*"This is not okay. This is nowhere close to okay. We’re not even in the same zip code as okay."*_

And that goes for all of this shit.


----------



## Box (Aug 5, 2019)

We haven't been in the "okay" zip code in a long LONG time

...I dont even have enough stamps to get a package to "okay" because of how far out we've gone


----------



## Marauder06 (Sep 23, 2019)

going to general courts martial, life without parole on the table

Navy SEAL and Marine Raider may face life in prison as they go to general court-martial for death of Green Beret


----------



## Steve1839 (Jan 29, 2020)

This just in...

Navy SEAL Promoted After Choking Green Beret to Death


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 29, 2020)

Steve1839 said:


> This just in...
> 
> Navy SEAL Promoted After Choking Green Beret to Death


From the article:

“It is another failure of leadership,” Retired Brig Gen. Bolduc (former commander of Special Operations Command-Africa) said. “I mean senior leadership. It’s unfortunate. He should have never been promoted. The investigation was started right away. They whisked them out of there as fast as they could.”

When asked if he was surprised by the news, Bolduc said no.

“I’m disappointed,” he said. “But not surprised. It’s utter bullshit.”
——————————-

Nice to see NSW is taking that whole “accountability” thing seriously. 🤔


----------



## Gunz (Jan 29, 2020)

I'm hoping for the Navy's sake his name was on the promotion list prior to the incident and automatically took effect on 11/15/17.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jan 29, 2020)

Gunz said:


> I'm hoping for the Navy's sake his name was on the promotion list prior to the incident and automatically took effect on 11/15/17.


Even if you're on a promotion list, if you're flagged, you won't be promoted.  As an S1 I processed more than a few flags that stopped promotions.  This means that their HR Officer either fucked up or this was intentional.


----------



## Cookie_ (Jan 15, 2021)

Update to this case.

Newsweek: Navy SEAL Faces 22 Years For Alleged Role In Hazing Death of Green Beret.
Navy SEAL faces 22 years for alleged role in hazing death of Green Beret


----------



## Gunz (Jan 15, 2021)

Cookie_ said:


> Update to this case.
> 
> Newsweek: Navy SEAL Faces 22 Years For Alleged Role In Hazing Death of Green Beret.
> Navy SEAL faces 22 years for alleged role in hazing death of Green Beret



Dedolph deserves every day of that 22 years.


----------



## SpitfireV (Jan 15, 2021)

Hazing isn't probably the word I would use...


----------



## Devildoc (Jan 15, 2021)

Cookie_ said:


> Update to this case.
> 
> Newsweek: Navy SEAL Faces 22 Years For Alleged Role In Hazing Death of Green Beret.
> Navy SEAL faces 22 years for alleged role in hazing death of Green Beret



I would say that if he's been convicted and sentenced we can move past the "alleged" tag....


----------



## Paper Shuffler (Jan 15, 2021)

Devildoc said:


> I would say that if he's been convicted and sentenced we can move past the "alleged" tag....


Do cases like this normally take three years to finish?


----------



## Kaldak (Jan 15, 2021)

Paper Shuffler said:


> Do cases like this normally take three years to finish?



While not required, it would be helpful if you posted an introduction given your background.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jan 15, 2021)

Cookie_ said:


> Update to this case.
> 
> Newsweek: Navy SEAL Faces 22 Years For Alleged Role In Hazing Death of Green Beret.
> Navy SEAL faces 22 years for alleged role in hazing death of Green Beret



Man, I hate people who write headlines...well I don't hate them.  I hate how their brains work. 

How about: "Navy SEAL faces 22 years for the murder of Green Beret."

That's like when a driver plows through a bunch of cyclists, they write that a car collided with a cyclist, yes although somewhat correct


Paper Shuffler said:


> Do cases like this normally take three years to finish?



Murder trials can take a very long time.  This?  The amount of twists and turns it takes.  Well, there's 13 pages before this, start on page one and read every single post.  You'll understand why once you've done that.  The wheels of justice and law tend not to move fast.  But there won't be justice with this, disgustingly, since there were some turds who got plea deals.


----------



## AWP (Jan 26, 2021)

Gunz said:


> Dedolph deserves every day of that 22 years.


10 years for murder...sounds about right. 

Navy SEAL gets 10 years for his role in Green Beret's death

NORFOLK, Va. -- A U.S. Navy SEAL has been sentenced to 10 years in prison for his role in the hazing death of a U.S. Army Green Beret while the men served together in Africa. The SEAL's attorney said he plans to appeal the punishment.

Tony DeDolph received the sentence Saturday from a jury of fellow servicemembers at a Navy base in Norfolk, Virginia, the Navy said in a statement Monday. He had pleaded guilty to involuntary manslaughter and related counts Jan. 14.


----------



## Andoni (Jan 26, 2021)

AWP said:


> 10 years for murder...sounds about right.


Agreed. Its no justice at all. Its a large appliance warranty time period. I hate that DEAL. Fuck him and anyone who supported him. He's a fucking pussy and so are the two that lied for him. Makes me so mad 😡

Edited: I can't find where it said the Green Beret was sleeping, so I removed that sentence.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 26, 2021)

A few years back, a West Point cadet was given 21 years in Leavenworth after he was convicted of raping a sleeping classmate during field training.  The circumstances were murky and the case complex, so much so that it was overturned on appeal.

The reason I bring that up in this thread is because the sentence at the time seemed extremely harsh given the circumstances. Someone remarked "He would have gotten less time if he had killed her."

I guess that was right.


----------



## Grunt (Jan 26, 2021)

Justice is usually anything but...justice....


----------



## Andoni (Jan 26, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> a West Point cadet was given 21 years in Leavenworth


Whoa 21 years is a  _very_ long time. It seems way too long. That's wild and doesn't deincentivize killing the person. 

Edited to add that last sentence for clarity.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 26, 2021)

Andoni said:


> Whoa 21 years is a  _very_ long time. It seems way too long. That's wild and doesn't deincentivize killing the person.
> 
> Edited to add that last sentence for clarity.


Yeah, there was speculation that it was because there was a desire to be seen as "tough on sexual assault."  But I wasn't involved in the case and don't know the details.  I also don't know the defendant or the victim, it was just a huge mess and I feel bad for everyone involved.


----------



## Grunt (Jan 26, 2021)

Andoni said:


> Whoa 21 years is a  _very_ long time. It seems way too long. That's wild and doesn't deincentivize killing the person.
> 
> Edited to add that last sentence for clarity.


There is a lot that goes into picking juries for trials like rapes and homicides. Sometimes the court hands down severe penalties to send a message for a specific crime -- possibly rapes and sex crimes at that time. Many times the jurors have been affected in some way by the very crime that is being tried. There are rape *crimes* in my state that carry life sentences and homicides that carry 0-40 years. As I said, the justice system isn't about *justice* it's more about chess playing and perceived punishment -- however weak it often seems.


----------



## Gunz (Jan 26, 2021)

The ABC article doesn’t get into the specific depravities that these motherfuckers committed or were planning to commit.

Some sick fucks. And I don’t care what your goddam combat history is or how much of a hero your lawyer says you were...none of it means squat. Special Operations isn’t solely about combat proficiency...it’s about honor and strength of character. Qualities  Dedolph and these other bastards obviously lacked.

Fuck him. He’ll probably be out in 7.


----------



## Andoni (Jan 26, 2021)

Sohei said:


> Justice is usually anything but...justice....


There you go being reasonable. Lol. Its true. You're right. Sometimes I forget. 

I kinda of ascribe to finding justice in the small parts of pieces and not the sum total of the outcome of any system. 

Around 07,  it was summed up really well for me-- by an Airborne Ranger Colonel-- who told me participating correctly in any legal process is experiencing a form of justice that is available-- because if society has taken a stand and says xyz behavior is wrong, participating truthfully and correctly is a privilege and duty as an American. 


My takeaway, (so it could be wrong), was, what happens what is decided by the system-- because it may be broken, sentences ect) isn't necessarily part of justice.

Its a super idealistic/almost-maybe naive perspective, but I can buy it.


----------



## Devildoc (Jan 26, 2021)

Gunz said:


> The ABC article doesn’t get into the specific depravities that these motherfuckers committed or were planning to commit.
> 
> Some sick fucks. And I don’t care what your goddam combat history is or how much of a hero your lawyer says you were...none of it means squat. Special Operations isn’t solely about combat proficiency...it’s about honor and strength of character. Qualities  Dedolph and these other bastards obviously lacked.
> 
> Fuck him. *He’ll probably be out in 7.*



The only thing that keeps me from getting worse indigestion over this is that when he does get out, he is PNG'd from everyone connected to the military, and the Big Chicken Dinner will keep him out of a lot of jobs in which he could exert any influence.  Yeah, I'd rather him be shot in front of a firing squad followed by being hanged for life and buried under the prison, but it's helpful that he isn't going to be living la vida loca when (if?  Prison justice and all...) he gets out.


----------



## AWP (Jan 26, 2021)

Devildoc said:


> The only thing that keeps me from getting worse indigestion over this is that when he does get out, he is PNG'd from everyone connected to the military, and the Big Chicken Dinner will keep him out of a lot of jobs in which he could exert any influence.  Yeah, I'd rather him be shot in front of a firing squad followed by being hanged for life and buried under the prison, but it's helpful that he isn't going to be living la vida loca when (if?  Prison justice and all...) he gets out.



His Youtube channel is going to be LIT.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jan 26, 2021)

AWP said:


> 10 years for murder...sounds about right.
> 
> Navy SEAL gets 10 years for his role in Green Beret's death
> 
> ...



I understand the prosecution always dangles the plea deal in front of dudes. Reminds me of the McConaughey flick Lincoln Lawyer where he's always getting his dudes low end sentence plea deals and he gets paid a lot, then he doesn't get one and the drug lord puts a hit on him.

Trial skills are important, if you aren't sharp you're always looking to get the perp to agree to a deal.  In fact most criminal cases never go to trial because they settle.  

It works both ways between parties, if you know you're going to trial, you want your best trial team on it.  If you're just aiming for a plea deal because you know you're effed, you want your best negotiators in the room to get them to agree to a plea deal.  This makes me think the Navy and perhaps SOCOM just wanted this whole thing to go away.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 26, 2021)

AWP said:


> His Youtube channel is going to be LIT.



He's a SEAL.  His book will still be a bestseller.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jan 26, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> I understand the prosecution always dangles the plea deal in front of dudes. Reminds me of the McConaughey flick Lincoln Lawyer where he's always getting his dudes low end sentence plea deals and he gets paid a lot, then he doesn't get one and the drug lord puts a hit on him.
> 
> Trial skills are important, if you aren't sharp you're always looking to get the perp to agree to a deal.  In fact most criminal cases never go to trial because they settle.
> 
> It works both ways between parties, if you know you're going to trial, you want your best trial team on it.  If you're just aiming for a plea deal because you know you're effed, you want your best negotiators in the room to get them to agree to a plea deal.  This makes me think the Navy and perhaps SOCOM just wanted this whole thing to go away.



I think this is accurate, but no less infuriating.

I'm reminded of the supply SGT who fragged his CO and another officer, admitted it, but then recanted. They botched his prosecution so badly that the guy got acquitted. 

7 years would have been better than 0 years.


----------



## Devildoc (Jan 26, 2021)

Marauder06 said:


> He's a SEAL.  His book will still be a bestseller.



"No shit, there I was:  a 300-pound bubba ready for me to drop the soap, a prison TTP (REDACTED) to rape me.  I did a ST6 (trademark here) ninja back flip, and got him first.  We were both satisfied."


----------



## Teufel (Jan 26, 2021)

I heard his lawyer, retired JAG Richard Stackhouse, is one of the best in the country. He used various legal tactics to keep some information, like the planned sexual assault, away from the jury.


----------



## Grunt (Jan 26, 2021)

Teufel said:


> I heard his lawyer, retired JAG Richard Stackhouse, is one of the best in the country. He used various legal tactics to keep some information, like the planned sexual assault, away from the jury.


Therein lies the "chess" playing. It kicks justice right out the door.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jan 26, 2021)

Teufel said:


> I heard his lawyer, retired JAG Richard Stackhouse, is one of the best in the country. He used various legal tactics to keep some information, like the planned sexual assault, away from the jury.



You mean information that may or may not have been obtained legally away from a jury?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jan 26, 2021)

Teufel said:


> I heard his lawyer, retired JAG Richard Stackhouse, is one of the best in the country. He used various legal tactics to keep some information, like the planned sexual assault, away from the jury.


His lawyer sounds like a scumbag. But hey, everyone's entitled to attorney.  Striking evidence or not allowing evidence to be admitted is situation normal in civilian criminal courts.


----------



## Teufel (Jan 26, 2021)

BloodStripe said:


> You mean information that may or may not have been obtained legally away from a jury?


I’m not an expert but i believe he argued that the introduction of those charges would be so inflammatory that it would color the jury’s judgement even if the evidence didn’t support his guilt of those actions.

Also I believe the charges were for manslaughter and hazing, not murder. That changes the scope of charges. Not defending the sentence, just trying to add context.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 26, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> His lawyer sounds like a scumbag. But hey, everyone's entitled to attorney.


Everyone hates the "scumbag" lawyer...until they need the scumbag lawyer.


----------



## Devildoc (Jan 26, 2021)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Everyone hates the "scumbag" lawyer...until they need the scumbag lawyer.



A good friend of mine, we went to high school together and then worked EMS together, I went to nursing school, he went to law school. He was one of the ADAs for our county. 

He said the same thing. He said if I ever needed a lawyer, find the dirtiest, scumiest, and meanest.  He said a lot of people with the big names will make the headlines but they were are also among the first for plea agreements.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jan 26, 2021)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Everyone hates the "scumbag" lawyer...until they need the scumbag lawyer.



I don't think anything more true than that has ever been written!


----------



## SpitfireV (Jan 26, 2021)

You can still hate while needing someone.


----------



## Grunt (Jan 26, 2021)

Our justice system is a "political" system of sorts so one has to understand that it is dirty, underhanded, politics that it runs on and requires those that operate in it to be comfortable with that. If one isn't, they aren't truly familiar with our system. It's better than most, but it isn't close to being just or good, IMO.


----------



## Teufel (Jan 27, 2021)

ThunderHorse said:


> His lawyer sounds like a scumbag. But hey, everyone's entitled to attorney.  Striking evidence or not allowing evidence to be admitted is situation normal in civilian criminal courts.


I don't blame him. A defense attorney's job is to defend their client to the best of their ability. Not judge them by their actions or character. Not a job for me but I understand it.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jan 27, 2021)

Defense attorneys just make me better at my job.  We had one that we hated to go to trial with, he was a pain in the ass and would challenge everything he could...but, if I was in trouble, I would call him in a split second.


----------



## AWP (Jan 27, 2021)

Kraut783 said:


> Defense attorneys just make me better at my job.  We had one that we hated to go to trial with, he was a pain in the ass and would challenge everything he could...but, if I was in trouble, I would call him in a split second.



Does he practice in FL, because if I need a "divorce"...


----------



## GOTWA (Jan 27, 2021)

AWP said:


> Does he practice in FL, because if I need a "divorce"...


Taking the bed I hope...


----------



## Gunz (Jan 27, 2021)

The plan to sodomize Meglar with a broomstick...no doubt one of the inflammatory things DeDolph’s lawyer managed to quash.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jan 27, 2021)

AWP said:


> Does he practice in FL, because if I need a "divorce"...



Naw, Dallas area...and only does criminal as he hates the civil stuff.


----------



## Brezna1110 (Sep 27, 2022)

In one article I read, it stated that the Staff Sgt. had been telling his wife in the weeks prior that he didn’t feel safe. There’s a lot to this story that most will never get to know.


----------



## “The Old Man” (Nov 18, 2022)

The murderer's conviction has been overturned.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 18, 2022)

Navy SEAL convicted for death of Green Beret Logan Melgar has 10-year sentence 'set aside'

Fine, the Navy should seek capital punishment by flogging around the fleet and keel hauling.


----------



## AWP (Nov 18, 2022)

Lawyers dropping the ball. Again. 

If this shit happens in high profile cases, how screwed are the cases no one hears about?


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 19, 2022)

Looks like just a re-sentencing, not dropping the charges or a release. Still bad but not as bad as it could have been. 

Can he actually get more time at a re-sentencing?


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 19, 2022)

AWP said:


> Lawyers dropping the ball. Again.
> 
> If this shit happens in high profile cases, how screwed are the cases no one hears about?


Navy JAG Corps has neem corrupt/incompetent for a long time.  Their TJAG (Obama era) got slapped (lost a star?) for trying to prevent defense attorneys from doing their jobs (Navy SEAL cases). His replacement also nailed for interfering.  Was this case tried in San Diego?  That seems to be the Navy JAG hub of legal criminality.


----------



## Cookie_ (Nov 19, 2022)

DA SWO said:


> Navy JAG Corps has neem corrupt/incompetent for a long time.  Their TJAG (Obama era) got slapped (lost a star?) for trying to prevent defense attorneys from doing their jobs (Navy SEAL cases). His replacement also nailed for interfering.  Was this case tried in San Diego?  That seems to be the Navy JAG hub of legal criminality.



The Warhorse did a 4 part series about all the corrupt shit USMC JAG is alleged to have been doing over the past few years, which is a lot of interferring in defense cases and threatening JAG officers(prosecutor and defense) who don't follow along with what higher command wants.

wouldn't be suprised if there is a similar situafion going on in the Navy.


----------



## BloodStripe (Nov 19, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> Looks like just a re-sentencing, not dropping the charges or a release. Still bad but not as bad as it could have been.
> 
> Can he actually get more time at a re-sentencing?


I don’t think it’s a resentencing issue. From everything I’ve read they will be doing a whole new trial as the prosecutors hid information from the defense team and jurors. The prosecutors have fucked up multiple times during this whole ordeal.


----------



## Devildoc (Nov 19, 2022)

I had Captain's mast once (NJP), But the only time I had to deal with JAG they hassled me for buying too many sets of MARPAT Cammies right after they were released, I was buying them for guys in my reserve unit and they thought I was going to sell them on the black market or eBay or whatever.  I hate JAG.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 19, 2022)

BloodStripe said:


> I don’t think it’s a resentencing issue. From everything I’ve read they will be doing a whole new trial as the prosecutors hid information from the defense team and jurors. The prosecutors have fucked up multiple times during this whole ordeal.



Not getting a new trial. Just a "re-sentencing hearing".  Already posted in the link I had on the previous page from T&P. But you can read it in the decision here:



> F. Cumulative Error Allegations of cumulative error are reviewed de novo.146 “Under the cumulative-error doctrine, ‘a number of errors, no one perhaps sufficient to merit reversal, in combination necessitate the disapproval of a finding.’”147 Assertions of error without merit are insufficient to invoke the cumulative error doctrine.148 We agree with the Government that every error alleged in this AOE (with the exception of AOE 1) has been addressed and rebutted in detail and that Appellant’s claim therefore lacks merit.149 Even assuming errors occurred, we find that they were not so severe as to “substantially sway” the findings or “materially prejudice Appellant’s substantial rights.”150 The prosecution’s sentencing case in aggravation was substantial, spanning three days and approximately 233 pages of documentary evidence, Appellant admitted guilt during his pleas, and, with the exception of the first AOE, there were no other alleged errors that denied Appellant the right to a fair trial.151
> 
> III. CONCLUSION A sentence rehearing is authorized. The sentence is SET ASIDE and the record is returned to the Judge Advocate General of the Navy for remand to an appropriate convening authority with authority to order a sentencing rehearing.


----------



## 757 (Nov 20, 2022)

Wtf is going on...

"We find no merit in these arguments and determine there was no prosecutorial misconduct. In this case, trial counsel presented aggravating evidence that did not contradict the stipulation of fact or impeach the military judge’s findings that Appellant’s chokehold caused the Victim’s death. The evidence presented by trial counsel about other mechanisms of death appropriately provided “greater context of exactly what occurred that night.”120 The aggravation evidence and trial counsel’s argument provided explanations for exactly how the chokehold brought about the Victim’s death—namely, what took place internally to the Victim’s body as a result of the chokehold. The military judge properly admitted the evidence after thorough consideration." *Page 22

"*This court agrees with the Government that none of the issues raised by Appellant in his mistrial motion cast substantial doubt as to Appellant’s court-martial. The military judge was correct when he determined all of the issues were “sufficiently argued and ruled on” at trial.143 Appellant also argues that the military judge’s R.C.M. 1001(b)(4) ruling “was in error” and that his denial of the mistrial “was influenced by his then-existing erroneous view of the law.”144 We disagree and, as discussed previously in this opinion, have determined that the military judge’s ruling on the aggravating evidence under R.C.M. 1001(b)(4) was proper. Finally, we agree with the Government that even though the military judge incorrectly noted that trial defense counsel did not cross-examine Dr. Fisher, the military judge did not rely on this incorrect fact to support his denial of the mistrial. He “simply note[d]” it, along with three other facts, in relation to discussion of possible forfeiture of the alleged Brady violation.145 The military judge did not make a ruling on the sua sponte issue of forfeiture, instead emphasizing that the issues were sufficiently argued at trial, did not warrant the severe remedy of mistrial, and identified no new facts or law to merit reconsideration. Appellant’s motion for a mistrial was properly denied and the military judge did not abuse his discretion by denying Appellant’s request. Once more, we note that even if we found error, the proper remedy, a sentencing rehearing, has already been ordered by this Court as a result of Appellant’s first AOE. Accordingly, were we to find error related to the military judge’s ruling on Appellant’s post-trial motion for a mistrial, the error would be moot." *Pages 25-26

"*We agree with the Government that every error alleged in this AOE (with the exception of AOE 1) has been addressed and rebutted in detail and that Appellant’s claim therefore lacks merit.149 *Even assuming errors occurred, we find that they were not so severe as to “substantially sway” the findings or “materially prejudice Appellant’s substantial rights.”150 The prosecution’s sentencing case in aggravation was substantial, spanning three days and approximately 233 pages of documentary evidence, Appellant admitted guilt during his pleas, and, with the exception of the first AOE, there were no other alleged errors that denied Appellant the right to a fair trial*.151" *Pages 26-27

*Edit too lazy to make " into ' and the bolding is my own.*

-Source: ThunderHorse Article


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 20, 2022)

757 said:


> Wtf is going on...
> 
> "We find no merit in these arguments and determine there was no prosecutorial misconduct. In this case, trial counsel presented aggravating evidence that did not contradict the stipulation of fact or impeach the military judge’s findings that Appellant’s chokehold caused the Victim’s death. The evidence presented by trial counsel about other mechanisms of death appropriately provided “greater context of exactly what occurred that night.”120 The aggravation evidence and trial counsel’s argument provided explanations for exactly how the chokehold brought about the Victim’s death—namely, what took place internally to the Victim’s body as a result of the chokehold. The military judge properly admitted the evidence after thorough consideration." *Page 22
> 
> ...


Simply that the military court of appeals only found that 1 error occurred and any additional error that occurred was not material to the verdict.  The defense in their appeal did a kitchen sink attempt.  Pretty standard practice of lawyers, especially in civil litigation.


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## DA SWO (Nov 20, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> Simply that the military court of appeals only found that 1 error occurred and any additional error that occurred was not material to the verdict.  The defense in their appeal did a kitchen sink attempt.  Pretty standard practice of lawyers, especially in civil litigation.


He limited the appeal process by pleading guilty.  The sentencing phase is what the trial would have been.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 20, 2022)

DA SWO said:


> He limited the appeal process by pleading guilty.  The sentencing phase is what the trial would have been.


I guess that's where I've been confounded by this since it came out. How do you have grounds for an appeal when you plead out. Need the JAG @Archangel27 to chime in.


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## DA SWO (Nov 20, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> I guess that's where I've been confounded by this since it came out. How do you have grounds for an appeal when you plead out. Need the JAG @Archangel27 to chime in.


His JAG is saying the Judge may have imposed a lighter sentence had he known the witness' plea deal involved a reduced sentence.  They are challenging the credibility of the witness, and trying for a shorter sentence.


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## 757 (Nov 20, 2022)

@ThunderHorse I get what they did and why they did it...I'm just shocked it worked.


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## Archangel27 (Nov 20, 2022)

757 said:


> @ThunderHorse I get what they did and why they did it...I'm just shocked it worked.



Brady disclosures are always going to be a big deal.


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## DA SWO (Nov 21, 2022)

HH6 says he can get the same sentence, or a reduced sentence; can't get a longer sentence.  Defense Team is doing it's job.


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## Gunz (Nov 21, 2022)

Fuck that sick murdering bastard.


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