# ACU VS MULTICAM



## JJOIFVET (Jun 16, 2009)

Ok guys here is one for you. I pretty much know what you are going to say  and I am sure I agree. I would like to know why the Army went to the ACU instead of the MARPAT or the MULTICAM pattern. I know the MULTICAM patter works well in several different environments. I have used it in the sand box and plan on using them again. I would love to see a study that compares them side by side in several environments. 

Oh and BTW, who was the General that bought off on the ACUs?


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## DA SWO (Jun 16, 2009)

JJOIFVET said:


> Ok guys here is one for you. I pretty much know what you are going to say  and I am sure I agree. I would like to know why the Army went to the ACU instead of the MARPAT or the MULTICAM pattern. I know the MULTICAM patter works well in several different environments. I have used it in the sand box and plan on using them again. I would love to see a study that compares them side by side in several environments.
> 
> *Oh and BTW, who was the General that bought off on the ACUs?*



Some guy named Schoomaker IIRC.

ACU was an attempt to save money, rules were DCU's came out of the unit budget, BDU's were a clothing allowance item.
Everyone ('cept the Marines) figured they would save money with a one color for all environments type camo.

I can't explain why ACU/ABU were selected instead of Multicam, may be because multicam is a patented item, and would require a sole source contract leaving us vulnerable to price gouging.

Personally, I don't understand why DCU didn't become the issue uniform, and BDU become the deployment, PCS to Korea/Europe uniform.  Would have been cheaper.


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## JJOIFVET (Jun 17, 2009)

There are three companies that sell the Multicam pattern. Crye Precision, Propper and Tru Spec. At the time when ACUs come out, I don't think all three companies were out. Either way, the color pattern the Army chose is terrible. I don't see where it blends into any environment.


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## JJOIFVET (Jun 17, 2009)

I can't believe only one person can respond to this, anyone?????


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## Pete S (Jun 17, 2009)

As far as I know MARPAT is "patented" by the USMC.
Supposedly this was done so that the other services couldn't use it.
Very petty.
I still haven't figured out if the Georgian camo is a MARPAT knockoff, or a licensed copy. 

MultiCam does look effective, and with someone other then Crye making it, it should be a viable option now.
Crye is good stuff, but damn is it expensive.


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## koz (Jun 17, 2009)

I've also heard that is has to do with the Army not wanting to use something that the Marines "invented."  At the pentagon level, there is some very childish behavior. 

There's a good example about a new Hmmwv turret - Recently three prototypes were submitted to the army, one (the worst one and most expensive) was chosen after testing.. Marines wanted one of the ones we didn't and the Army said no. BTW the one the Marines wanted was the only one to pass the roll over test and was the favorite by all the guys who tested them..  And the one chosen was 5 times more expensive.  $7k vs $35k...  

I think there's also the reason we'll have the SCAR rammed down our throats...  Some higher up (Gen or project manager) has a great consulting job lined up after retirement and he'll use all his power to get something in the inventory.  HK416's, POF, and a couple other manufactures were not allowed to be tested the same time the SCAR was first shown to USASOC higher-ups.  The tests were basically against the M4 only..  

Sorry for the ramble...


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## JJOIFVET (Jun 17, 2009)

koz said:


> I've also heard that is has to do with the Army not wanting to use something that the Marines "invented."  At the pentagon level, there is some very childish behavior.
> 
> There's a good example about a new Hmmwv turret - Recently three prototypes were submitted to the army, one (the worst one and most expensive) was chosen after testing.. Marines wanted one of the ones we didn't and the Army said no. BTW the one the Marines wanted was the only one to pass the roll over test and was the favorite by all the guys who tested them..  And the one chosen was 5 times more expensive.  $7k vs $35k...
> 
> ...



I couldn't agree with you more. I have heard that the Marines offered up the MARPAT pattern to the Army, but they said no. It makes no damn sense to me, and then I read an article today in the Army times and they put the new updates to the ACU, but the color pattern didn't change, just some buttons and velcro. The project manager should be fired. They should test these things before they put them in the inventory, like the ACU. Did they run any tests on it at all? 

Yes the Crye Precision is expensive, but worth every penny, I have two sets as well as everyone on my team and we wear them over seas and they work great.


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## AssadUSMC (Jun 17, 2009)

For you SOF types, is there any leeway on personal choice for your "get dirty" gear?  I know from my Marine days that there is MAJOR rigidity in uniformity (pun intended), but I was led to believe you guys could mix-and-match with commercial stuff and mil gear.

In my current gig, I can wear WTF I want to - it's just a matter of taking a lot of grief if I stroll by in multi-cam and the (insert color here) guys see me. ;)


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## Marauder06 (Jun 17, 2009)

It still pisses me off that we aren't all in the same uniform anymore.

I don't know why the Army didn't get on board with the Marines' MARPAT in the past, but I do know we can't use their uniforms now, or their boots, because they've got the Marine emblem all over them.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 17, 2009)

Marauder06 said:


> Marine emblem all over them.



We should put the Army seal all over our ACU's so they can't use them either!>:{:doh:


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## AssadUSMC (Jun 17, 2009)

What is the Army seal this week anyway?


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## Marauder06 (Jun 17, 2009)

lol

The Marines already have a better uniform, they don't want to use ours ;)

But the number of Air Force and Navy personnel I've seen forward wearing ACUs indicate to me that it would have been entirely possible for us to all be in the same uniform... now we're going to have to stock like six different types of uniforms and assorted accoutrements- that ought to be good in the combat zones :uhh: plus God knows how much each service spent in R&D and procurement just so we could all look different from each other :doh:


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## AssadUSMC (Jun 17, 2009)

Just give everyone multicam and be done w/it.

Speaking of which, you guys know that shirt that guys wear with the regular ACU sleeves and "underarmor"-type torso to wear with armor?  WTF is with troops running around Qandahar airport at the little "mall" there with those shirts and no armor?  Damn that is lame...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 17, 2009)

Yeah I know, I don't want to wear the stupid ACU's either...

Still waiting on that new stuff to finish the field tests and get issued over the next 8 years our budget gets cut.... Oh wait, thats right I am going to the private side and then I can wear what ever the hell I want..... Me thinky I will wear a brown raider suit and my Cav hat!


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## AssadUSMC (Jun 17, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> Oh wait, thats right I am going to the private side and then I can wear what ever the hell I want..... Me thinky I will wear a brown raider suit and my Cav hat!



Damn right... However you will laugh VERY hard when you see analysts and mega-fobbits running around decked out in multicam and MICH helmets.


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## Viper1 (Jun 17, 2009)

JJOIFVET said:


> I couldn't agree with you more. I have heard that the Marines offered up the MARPAT pattern to the Army, but they said no. It makes no damn sense to me, and then I read an article today in the Army times and they put the new updates to the ACU, but the color pattern didn't change, just some buttons and velcro. The project manager should be fired. They should test these things before they put them in the inventory, like the ACU. Did they run any tests on it at all?
> 
> Yes the Crye Precision is expensive, but worth every penny, I have two sets as well as everyone on my team and we wear them over seas and they work great.



I read the same article in Army times today.  Some of the "improvements" are take away from the BDUs.

As the saying goes: "If it ain't broke......"


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## Viper1 (Jun 17, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> Just give everyone multicam and be done w/it.
> 
> Speaking of which, you guys know that shirt that guys wear with the regular ACU sleeves and "underarmor"-type torso to wear with armor?  WTF is with troops running around Qandahar airport at the little "mall" there with those shirts and no armor?  Damn that is lame...



Yeah those are the ACU Combat shirts.  Fielded those to my BN when I was the S-4 last year.  Wore it a couple times on visits to the COP and JSS.

The shirt smells funny, and it never goes away.  No big issue.

The front is breathable so it is comfortable underneath the IOTV.  The sleeves have built in elbow pads, so if it is the right size that is a plus for the wearer.  

The minus: The sleeves are built thick and don't breathe at all.  Horrible, especially in hot weather. 

Other than that, I think it is decent (minus the Army Strong logo on the front).  I'd much prefer a space to sew Name and blood type.


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## koz (Jun 17, 2009)

http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/acu.htm

ACU history


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## koz (Jun 17, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> For you SOF types, is there any leeway on personal choice for your "get dirty" gear?  I know from my Marine days that there is MAJOR rigidity in uniformity (pun intended), but I was led to believe you guys could mix-and-match with commercial stuff and mil gear.
> 
> In my current gig, I can wear WTF I want to - it's just a matter of taking a lot of grief if I stroll by in multi-cam and the (insert color here) guys see me. ;)



Yes there is some leeway on uniforms.  One tour, we pretty much wore DCU's around the base, otherwise it was carharts, commercial cargo pants, wicking T-shirts (before they were available in the mil-system), Mountain Hardware, North Face, Patagonia, Cabelas jackets....


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## AssadUSMC (Jun 17, 2009)

That's what I figured... The HSLD guys I was around in Iraq were in multicam, the similar guys in Astan were in the gear you described, then some other hut-hut dudes were in desert MARPAT.  All were TF guys, so I was a little confused.  I usually run around in cargo pants, UA shirts, and fleece when it's "breezy". :)


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## Mac_NZ (Jun 17, 2009)

koz said:


> Some higher up (Gen or project manager) has a great consulting job lined up after retirement and he'll use all his power to get something in the inventory.



The saddest thing thing is this is oh so true.  A lot of people in the areas that make these decisions are one foot into retirement already, something to walk into on the dark side tends to override a lot of ethos and values.  
Also you have guys with straight prejudices towards certain things.  I know one WO who fought like a fat chick over a donut against anything with Velcro on it.  His reasoning "it's noisy" the suggestion that so was shooting at someone didn't quite make it through his thick skull.

Multicam is great but I think two things will kill it:

1.  SOF is using it and when regular joes start asking for it, it gets fobbed off as "they just want to be like SOF" by those that "know" 

2.  Multicam was the hands down better cam, UCP came out of nowhere and surprised a hell of a lot of people, hence why there was lot of MC products available and very few UCP.  To bring it back in now would require a hell of a lot of high ranking people to say they were wrong.

I'm not in the US Army so I can only base this of information I have from guys that are but for the Army to hold their hat in their hand and tell the Marines they have the better cam, can we use it? would be only slightly over shadowed by the blizzard raging in the fiery pits of hell.  IIRC the "universal camouflage"  was brought in to save money.  Correct me if I get it wrong but BDUs were covered by clothing allowance? but DCUs had to be purchased with unit funds.

For years there has been papers put forward that a bunch of Senior Es should be made Subject Matter Experts and sent to Natrick.  To the best of my knowledge this hasn't happened.  If it happened it would be great and might provide some QC over certain BS but they would have to not all be yes men who built themselves into a clique.  All they need to do is say, it needs to do this, weigh this and be able to be used like this and then critique the prototypes.

Damn that was long.


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## Teufel (Jun 18, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> Just give everyone multicam and be done w/it.
> 
> Speaking of which, you guys know that shirt that guys wear with the regular ACU sleeves and "underarmor"-type torso to wear with armor?  WTF is with troops running around Qandahar airport at the little "mall" there with those shirts and no armor?  Damn that is lame...



You never got issued the FROG suit?  The Marine Corps has the same kind of thing minus the Army advertising slogan on the chest.


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## HeloMedic1171 (Jun 18, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> We should put the Army seal all over our ACU's so they can't use them either!>:{:doh:



waste of money - even WE don't want to use them!



J.A.B. said:


> Yeah I know, I don't want to wear the stupid ACU's either... Me thinky I will wear a brown raider suit and my Cav hat!



sounds like a fuckin plan!!!  though, it'll be a minute before I can join you......



Viper1 said:


> I read the same article in Army times today.  Some of the "improvements" are take away from the BDUs.
> 
> As the saying goes: "If it ain't broke......"



yup.  Viper, you got any more info or linkies to the "fixes"?  just curious as to the plans to "fix" the broke uniforms.



Viper1 said:


> Yeah those are the ACU Combat shirts.  Fielded those to my BN when I was the S-4 last year.



we're starting to get one of two.  I'll leave out details, but suffice it to say those that will benefit the most are getting them first, the Fobbits and Toc Rangers are getting them last.



Teufel said:


> You never got issued the FROG suit?  The Marine Corps has the same kind of thing minus the Army advertising slogan on the chest.



haven't seen that....  though I did see a HSLD Sailor (use your imagination) with some Desert MARPAT, but with velcro in lots of places.  I did a double take.


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## HeloMedic1171 (Jun 18, 2009)

koz said:


> http://www.globalsecurity.org/military/systems/ground/acu.htm
> 
> ACU history



someone didn't fact check that article very well.  it wasn't a stryker brigade that tested it, it was 48th BDE GAARNG.  they were the first to get it issued for testing downrange, and it was through their 1-year tour that the crotch issues and shitty velcro were discovered, and subsequently "fixed" , though we all know that ACUs still have issues with both.  also, the "feedback" they refer to was from the aforementioned guard unit.... not rank and file AD soldiers lke they did with the Army Service Uniform.  se la vi. it's here for a good while, may as well get used to it.


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## AssadUSMC (Jun 18, 2009)

Teufel said:


> You never got issued the FROG suit?  The Marine Corps has the same kind of thing minus the Army advertising slogan on the chest.



I've got no problem with the shirt.  I just think it's lame as hell to cruise around in the rear with that shirt instead of the regular one...  Next thing they'll be wearing their silky running shorts to the local bar.  At least the Navy guys would appreciate that. ;)


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## HeloMedic1171 (Jun 18, 2009)

I agree.  if you're on mission, or on a break from mission, it's cool.  but you can't tell me some guys in a signal BN have a need to wear that shirt on a daily basis.  :uhh:  though, I was not aware of this, but apparently it IS approved for flight crew use.  THAT's pretty damn nice.  would have kept me a lot cooler last tour...


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## AssadUSMC (Jun 18, 2009)

Until that shit melts onto you if the bird crashes... No thanks - I only wear that stuff when I'm NOT flying.


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## HeloMedic1171 (Jun 18, 2009)

you are incorrect sir... that's why it's approve for flight, it WON'T melt to your skin in the likely vent of a fire.   www.massif.com  check them out, they're the manufacturers of the Army Combat Shirt.


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## JJOIFVET (Jun 18, 2009)

HeloMedic1171 said:


> you are incorrect sir... that's why it's approve for flight, it WON'T melt to your skin in the likely vent of a fire.   www.massif.com  check them out, they're the manufacturers of the Army Combat Shirt.



Yeah, Crye has a new top that is made from a nomex material. I didn't get that old one because it was like that under armor shit. It will melt right to your skin, but the new ACU one and Crye one will not.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 18, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> Just give everyone multicam and be done w/it.
> 
> ...



I'm down with that.

I think it looks the best out of all of them, and it doesn't have the Marine symbol all over it.


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## AssadUSMC (Jun 18, 2009)

JJOIFVET said:


> Yeah, Crye has a new top that is made from a nomex material. I didn't get that old one because it was like that under armor shit. It will melt right to your skin, but the new ACU one and Crye one will not.



Thanks for the heads-up - the only fireproof stuff I knew about was hot as hell to wear in the desert.


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## Mac_NZ (Jun 18, 2009)

Doesn't XGO make some good hot weather FR T Shirts? 

http://www.extremeoutfitters.us/flameretardantrelaxedt-shirtphase1.aspx


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## GEAUXLSU (Jun 25, 2009)

JJOIFVET said:


> Ok guys here is one for you. I pretty much know what you are going to say  and I am sure I agree. I would like to know why the Army went to the ACU instead of the MARPAT or the MULTICAM pattern. I know the MULTICAM patter works well in several different environments. I have used it in the sand box and plan on using them again. I would love to see a study that compares them side by side in several environments.
> 
> Oh and BTW, who was the General that bought off on the ACUs?




Well, we got ours. The only thing I have seen ACUs blend in with was gravel. If we ever go to war on the Moon, we will be in good shape, or if we have to fight in a ash field post Volcano.


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## pardus (Mar 10, 2010)

The Army is now going to issue Multicam to troops deploying to A'stan which is a great start, hopefully it'll become general issue soon.


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## varsity (Mar 10, 2010)

J.A.B. said:


> Oh wait, thats right I am going to the private side and then I can wear what ever the hell I want..... Me thinky I will wear a brown raider suit and my Cav hat!


 
Not true....Contracting is getting gayer by the second.  I've had just about all I can take.  I'm thinking about taking up a job as a night janitor at technical school.  Maybe someone will notice me and see how smart I am.


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## AWP (Mar 10, 2010)

varsity said:


> Not true....Contracting is getting gayer by the second.



Yep.

I know of one contract where guys are paying roughly 50% in taxes, 20% of which goes to the Afghan gov't.

And considering the US can't fight a war without us, they are hell bent in crapping on us whenever they can.


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