# College entrance "scandal"



## Devildoc (Mar 12, 2019)

If daddy has a building erected, upon which is etched his name, that's OK.  If Billy Bob Star Quarterback has his SAT 'adjusted,' that's OK.  If my dumbass son gets preferential treatment because he is a legacy, that's OK.  I am having a hard time manufacturing outrage.

Are they seriously wanting to put someone in prison for this??

Felicity Huffman, Lori Loughlin among 50 snared in elite college cheating scam, authorities say


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## Box (Mar 12, 2019)

Limousine Liberals and their white privilege - nothing to see here - move along.  
Harumph Harumph Harumph


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## Grunt (Mar 12, 2019)

I am sure glad that it was necessary to use the _expertise_ of the FBI to investigate such a heinous crime.

Maybe they can conduct some important NCAA violation interviews right after they leave the building from conducting "Russian" interference interviews....


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Mar 12, 2019)

That seems like an awful lot of money to get your shitbag kid into college. I get it is illegal, and think that it ought to be prosecuted.

Can't be a system for the rich and a second for everyone else, not sure if it requires prison time. Getting kicked out of the colleges seems right to me.


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## DA SWO (Mar 12, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> If daddy has a building erected, upon which is etched his name, that's OK.  If Billy Bob Star Quarterback has his SAT 'adjusted,' that's OK.  If my dumbass son gets preferential treatment because he is a legacy, that's OK.  I am having a hard time manufacturing outrage.
> 
> Are they seriously wanting to put someone in prison for this??
> 
> Felicity Huffman, Lori Loughlin among 50 snared in elite college cheating scam, authorities say


Hope so.

They won't, just large fines.

I guarantee this will make waves in Texas, Getting accepted to UT is huge down here, with TAMU a close 2nd.  Finding out that a coach brought a bogus recruit in will get looked at, and it should.  Prospective athletes should meet the same requirements as anyone else (never gonna happen as Football, Basketball and Baseball generate too much money).

It's pay to play.

Asian/White privilege.


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## Brill (Mar 12, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> If daddy has a building erected, upon which is etched his name, that's OK.  If Billy Bob Star Quarterback has his SAT 'adjusted,' that's OK.  If my dumbass son gets preferential treatment because he is a legacy, that's OK.  I am having a hard time manufacturing outrage.
> 
> Are they seriously wanting to put someone in prison for this??
> 
> Felicity Huffman, Lori Loughlin among 50 snared in elite college cheating scam, authorities say



They’re charged with conspiracy to commit mail fraud. Kid you not.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/03/12/us/indictment-college-admissions-scheme/index.html


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## Devildoc (Mar 12, 2019)

lindy said:


> They’re charged with conspiracy to commit mail fraud. Kid you not.



Bwahahaha!  Straight from John Grisham....


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## Grunt (Mar 12, 2019)

lindy said:


> ...conspiracy to commit mail fraud...



It's a catch-all and easy to prove crime....


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## Devildoc (Mar 12, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> Hope so.
> 
> They won't, just large fines.
> 
> ...



Understood. We have a local academic institution, UNC, which has always prided itself on being academically rigorous with world class Athletics who was busted for providing nonexistent classes to athletes.  That was years ago and there is still fall out.

Wake Forest has been implicated in this current scheme, as has Yale.


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## Brill (Mar 12, 2019)

Grunt said:


> It's a catch-all and easy to prove crime....



Indeed.


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## 0699 (Mar 12, 2019)

I love it when generals and celebrities do stupid shit.  Especially illegal stupid shit.


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## Brill (Mar 12, 2019)

Ben Shapiro writing about the “why”.



> *The question is why.* Both these families are wealthy. The children of these families weren’t going to lack for opportunity in life. Furthermore, isn’t college designed to train people for the real world? Wouldn’t admission under false pretenses result in the kids flunking out? Wouldn’t their lack of merit be revealed by the simple pressure of the schooling?
> 
> The answer is obvious: no, it wouldn’t. Colleges aren’t about training kids for the real world, or teaching them significant modes of thinking, or examining timeless truths. Universities aren’t about skill sets, either – at least in the humanities. They’re about two things: *credentialism and social connections.*



Famous Actresses Paid Bundles Of Money To Bribe Their Kids' Way Into College. Here's Why.


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 12, 2019)

My reaction to learning of this story:





William H Macy's reaction to learning they had been found out:


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 12, 2019)

Trump Tweet expressing his disappointment in the Hollywood elite in 3..2..1...


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## Kraut783 (Mar 12, 2019)

I think Congress should look into this horrible crime.....maybe appoint AOC  


These are the type of people who have to get their children into a certain pre-K or life is over....you know, crazies


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## Marauder06 (Mar 12, 2019)

People absolutely need to go to prison over this. I’d also love to see some students get booted from the schools they got into based on fraud, and to see some degrees get revoked for students who knew, or who should have known, that their admissions were bogus. 

And I’d really like to see some lawsuits from people who got waitlisted and never got in because these clowns bribed and conspired their way in.


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## Brill (Mar 12, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> People absolutely need to go to prison over this. I’d also love to see some students get booted from the schools they got into based on fraud, and to see some degrees get revoked for heads who knew, or who should have known, that their admissions were bogus.
> 
> And I’d really like to see some lawsuits from people who got waitlisted and never got in because these clowns bribed and conspired their way in.



If these were public schools sure but private schools should be able to admit whoever they choose. Maybe payback any federal monies?


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## Marauder06 (Mar 12, 2019)

I’m not talking about the schools, although they may bear some culpability as well.  The schools should sanction the students if they got in through bribery, or at least make them re-apply.  And if they knew they cheated to get in, they should have their degrees revoked if they are grads. 

The people who didn’t get in should sue the people who defrauded them out of their spots in tjese life-changing schools.


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## SpitfireV (Mar 12, 2019)

Take the NCAA out next. It is not too far off of slavery.


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## Box (Mar 12, 2019)

Protests 

We need some good old grassroots ANTIFA style, vagina-hat -wearing protesters to get out in the streets and call out this blatant abuse of white privilege.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 13, 2019)

I know now the woke are going after Kushner.  What Kushner's dad did though is perfectly legal.  Giving a ginormous gift to the Endowment and never saying a word isn't faking anything.  Otherwise we're gonna turn Booster Clubs and Legacy slots upside down all over this country.  I would not be surprised if that includes Service Academies either.

What these people did though is rather hilarious, they hired a bribery firm.  And I bet their kids are all on Social exclaiming about how white privilege is bad too.


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## DA SWO (Mar 13, 2019)

lindy said:


> If these were public schools sure but private schools should be able to admit whoever they choose. Maybe payback any federal monies?


UT Austin is a public university, and the coaches taking money violates NCAA guidelines.


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## AWP (Mar 13, 2019)

The details about this are utterly insane. Fake athletic profiles, Photoshopped pictures, blatant, easily checked lies on applications...unreal.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 13, 2019)

AWP said:


> The details about this are utterly insane. Fake athletic profiles, Photoshopped pictures, blatant, easily checked lies on applications...unreal.



It's easier to get into school when you an athlete, yaddaimean?


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## Box (Mar 13, 2019)

Hi - I would like to donate some money to build you a library - on a different topic - my children would really really like to attend school here

Hi - my kid isnt very athletic and, well, my kid is dumb as a stump - here are a few photo-shopped pictures that make my kid look like an athlete and a check for a million dollars - I'll drop him off out front next Tuesday.

...and to think, a few congress critters have been run out of town over accusations that they may have plagiarized term papers when they were in college.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 13, 2019)

I guess the other thing I want to know is how much this investigation cost? Because if it's significantly more than what these people were caught for we can call that a waste?  White collar crimes and all that.


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## Box (Mar 13, 2019)

waste?

Since when does the USA care about how much money is wasted investigating the lives of the elite?
Find SOMETHING on these fuckers no matter what it costs and then perp-walk them jokers on the 6 O'clock news
I demand to be entertained !!!


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## Marauder06 (Mar 13, 2019)

I think some people don’t appreciate what a big deal this is because they don’t realize how life-changing it can be to go to one of these schools.  The resources and opportunities afforded by some of these institutions put theor graduates on a path not just to the middle class, but to the upper strata of the upper class.  

Look at the people who run this country and look at where they went to school.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 13, 2019)

Then the way about this is eliminating the sliding scale of the NCAA and moving to general population standards for Athletes.  That would significantly change the game.


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## Brill (Mar 13, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> I think some people don’t appreciate what a big deal this is because they don’t realize how life-changing it can be to go to one of these schools.  The resources and opportunities afforded by some of these institutions put theor graduates on a path not just to the middle class, but to the upper strata of the upper class.
> 
> Look at the people who run this country and look at where they went to school.



I don’t think you’re making the case you think you’re making. Rich people “think” they can do whatever they want because they can afford to buy their way out of a jam.

Fuck the rich who fuck the unrich. (Graduated from junor college)


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## SpitfireV (Mar 13, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> I guess the other thing I want to know is how much this investigation cost? Because if it's significantly more than what these people were caught for we can call that a waste?  White collar crimes and all that.



So I take it in general your approach to law enforcement is "don't do it"? My point is, the cost is irrelevant since it's budgeted for anyway. Where is the line drawn as to what is "worth" it (in a financial sense) to you?


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## Blizzard (Mar 13, 2019)

AWP said:


> The details about this are utterly insane. Fake athletic profiles, Photoshopped pictures, blatant, easily checked lies on applications...unreal.


...but none of the schools or receipants are under investigation or will face repercussions.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 13, 2019)

SpitfireV said:


> So I take it in general your approach to law enforcement is "don't do it"? My point is, the cost is irrelevant since it's budgeted for anyway. Where is the line drawn as to what is "worth" it (in a financial sense) to you?



Will this change anything?  Probably not.  

However, for @lindy 's pleasure: Lori Loughlin's Daughter Olivia Leaves Yacht of USC's Board of Trustees Chairman


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## SpitfireV (Mar 13, 2019)

I'm not sure which part of my post you've addressed.


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## DA SWO (Mar 13, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> I think some people don’t appreciate what a big deal this is because they don’t realize how life-changing it can be to go to one of these schools.  The resources and opportunities afforded by some of these institutions put theor graduates on a path not just to the middle class, but to the upper strata of the upper class.
> 
> *Look at the people who run this country and look at where they went to school.*



Bold face part.
Those who did not read Ben Shapiro's (sp?) take should.

The "donations" also constitute hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax fraud in addition to all the other stuff.

The folks who lecture about "white privilege" and inequalities are doing this to make their kids "more equal" then your kids.  As a parent I don't necessarily blame them for trying to give their kids a leg up, it's how they did it that is wrong.


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## Brill (Mar 14, 2019)

Trump’s fault.

The Atlantic Writer Suggests Trump Is To Blame For College Bribery Scandal


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## Devildoc (Mar 14, 2019)

lindy said:


> Trump’s fault.
> 
> The Atlantic Writer Suggests Trump Is To Blame For College Bribery Scandal



Don Lemon, he of CNN fame and fortune, put out a piece linking Trump to this .

Is this a big deal?  Sure.  But they are only trying to affect one part of the problem.  It's like a doc who treats someone with multiple GSWs with a single band aid.

This should be merely a step 1.  Step 2, ban legacy admissions for kids who don't meet the same academic standards.  Step 3, ban quid-pro-quo admissions for school or booster donors.  I am certain there are more steps but it's early and I am undercaffeinated and that's all I got....


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## Devildoc (Mar 14, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> Then the way about this is eliminating the sliding scale of the NCAA and moving to general population standards for Athletes.  That would significantly change the game.



Blowing up the NCAA would be helpful.  But definitely eliminate that sliding scale.

Our friend is in sports information for Duke football, she said that 75% of SEC football players would not qualify at Duke (she held the same position for one of the Mississippi SEC schools).  College athletics, the NCAA, and admissions are such a racket.


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## Centermass (Mar 14, 2019)

Chuckle of the day: Elizabeth Warren declaring that those who scam the college admittance system are bad.


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## Box (Mar 14, 2019)

Centermass said:


> Chuckle of the day: Elizabeth Warren declaring that those who scam the college admittance system are bad.



That may be true - but in all fairness - they are only 1/1064 bad.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 14, 2019)

I saw an article on Fox that the lawsuits by people who didn’t get admitted have already begun. 

I hope that this ends up forcing schools to take a hard look at the totalitybodntheir admissions practices, including legacies, race-based admissions, athletic waivers, the while deal.


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## DozerB (Mar 14, 2019)

A great point that was raised in all of this is that if these prestigious, elitist institutions are so academically rigorous, then how did unqualified/underqualified cake-eaters manage to stay enrolled, and in some cases, GRADUATE? Could it be that the myth of superior academic rigor at Ivy League schools is an oft-repeated yet inaccurate myth and that these top-tier schools are not so academically challenging after all?

As a state school graduate, I don't want to say I hope so, but I hope so. #MakeStateSchoolGreatAgain


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 14, 2019)




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## Brill (Mar 14, 2019)

Centermass said:


> Chuckle of the day: Elizabeth Warren declaring that those who scam the college admittance system are bad.



I think I’m 1/1024th Harvard grad. Like, you know, I’m moving on.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 14, 2019)

If this investigation had say under 50 agents involved in it, I'd probably be like, ok, sure and what not.


DozerB said:


> A great point that was raised in all of this is that if these prestigious, elitist institutions are so academically rigorous, then how did unqualified/underqualified cake-eaters manage to stay enrolled, and in some cases, GRADUATE? Could it be that the myth of superior academic rigor at Ivy League schools is an oft-repeated yet inaccurate myth and that these top-tier schools are not so academically challenging after all?
> 
> As a state school graduate, I don't want to say I hope so, but I hope so. #MakeStateSchoolGreatAgain


Just because it's hard to get in doesn't mean it's any harder...


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## Brill (Mar 15, 2019)

Mean girls at USC.



> *Lori Loughlin’s daughters reportedly have no plans of returning to the University of Southern California over fear of bullying* after the actress’ arrest in the national college admissions scam.
> 
> Sources close to both daughters, 19-year-old Olivia Jade and 20-year-old Isabella Giannulli, said that neither of the girls will be returning to school for fear of being “viciously bullied,” according to TMZ on Thursday.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 15, 2019)




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## Blizzard (Mar 15, 2019)

When you pay $250K to forge an athletic history and change ACT scores but you still have to tell people your kid goes to USC. Why not set that bar a little higher.


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## Devildoc (Mar 15, 2019)

DozerB said:


> A great point that was raised in all of this is that if these prestigious, elitist institutions are so academically rigorous, then how did unqualified/underqualified cake-eaters manage to stay enrolled, and in some cases, GRADUATE? Could it be that the myth of superior academic rigor at Ivy League schools is an oft-repeated yet inaccurate myth and that these top-tier schools are not so academically challenging after all?
> 
> As a state school graduate, I don't want to say I hope so, but I hope so. #MakeStateSchoolGreatAgain



The hard part is getting in, not staying in.  I am in my second masters program, the first at a top-5/10 private institution, my current one at a mid-level state school.  Although two separate programs, I would say the difficulty and amount of work is about equal.  The Ivys and top-tier schools, what they get you is accessibility and influence.


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## DozerB (Mar 15, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> The hard part is getting in, not staying in.  I am in my second masters program, the first at a top-5/10 private institution, my current one at a mid-level state school.  Although two separate programs, I would say the difficulty and amount of work is about equal.  The Ivys and top-tier schools, what they get you is accessibility and influence.


 
Yeah, I was sort of leading the witness with those questions, because what you've said is undeniably true, and anyone with a brain can pretty easily come to that conclusion. Especially in our business, is the Naval Academy or Princeton grad any more capable than the Ohio State or Texas A&M grad (though the A&M grad will certainly be the most obnoxious about his alma mater)? Of course not. They're all 2ndLts who have to figure it out the hard way. There's no standardized testing as a platoon commander for which you can study all night and day and get a 100%. But when it comes time to transition (careers, not genders) the former have an undeniable advantage, probably due to either the prestige/shock factor or alumni network, or a combination of the two.

I've known Community College grads who I would pick to be on my team every day of the week, and Harvard grads who were so infatuated with their own intelligence that they didn't even care to know their Marines' names. And vice versa. Not to mention degree program. In no universe is chemical engineering at the University of Georgia easier or less meaningful than a Philosophy degree from Yale (obviously). But I'd be interested to see a study comparing like-degree programs from a state school and a top 10 Ivy. I'm not sure what they would "measure" in terms of actual career field effectiveness, but I'm sure it could be done. Or even just interviews with Fortune 500 CEOs to see if the recruiting factors actually translate over to success factors once those individuals are hired. 

Disclaimer: I barely passed state college so if you're thinking I'm just a dumb, bitter, liberal-arts-degree holder that just needed a piece of paper in order to commission, you're probably not ENTIRELY wrong.


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## Devildoc (Mar 15, 2019)

DozerB said:


> Yeah, I was sort of leading the witness with those questions, because what you've said is undeniably true, and anyone with a brain can pretty easily come to that conclusion. Especially in our business, is the Naval Academy or Princeton grad any more capable than the Ohio State or Texas A&M grad (though the A&M grad will certainly be the most obnoxious about his alma mater)? Of course not. They're all 2ndLts who have to figure it out the hard way. There's no standardized testing as a platoon commander for which you can study all night and day and get a 100%. But when it comes time to transition (careers, not genders) the former have an undeniable advantage, probably due to either the prestige/shock factor or alumni network, or a combination of the two.
> 
> I've known Community College grads who I would pick to be on my team every day of the week, and Harvard grads who were so infatuated with their own intelligence that they didn't even care to know their Marines' names. And vice versa. Not to mention degree program. In no universe is chemical engineering at the University of Georgia easier or less meaningful than a Philosophy degree from Yale (obviously). But I'd be interested to see a study comparing like-degree programs from a state school and a top 10 Ivy. I'm not sure what they would "measure" in terms of actual career field effectiveness, but I'm sure it could be done. Or even just interviews with Fortune 500 CEOs to see if the recruiting factors actually translate over to success factors once those individuals are hired.
> 
> Disclaimer: I barely passed state college so if you're thinking I'm just a dumb, bitter, liberal-arts-degree holder that just needed a piece of paper in order to commission, you're probably not ENTIRELY wrong.



You bring up several salient points ('salient' I learned in private college).  Comparing some degree programs head-to-head there are qualitative and quantitative differences: a MBA from Duke or UNC-CH or Wharton at UPenn is better than a MBA from Southeast Missouri State College (I made that up, I hope there really isn't one that I am denigrating.  BTW, 'denigrating' I learned in a state college).  The same material, sure, but profs who usually have been there, done that.  But you are also buying access and influence: those people and the alumni networks set you up for a higher likelihood of success as you mention.  But not all programs can be compared: I am sure a history degree is a history degree is a history degree regardless of where one graduated.  Sure is true with nursing and political science (two of my undergrad degrees).

ROTC is a different animal because every program is exactly the same.  But I acknowledge differences with the culture that can impact the quality of the soldier/sailor.  NC State has an outstanding ROTC culture, as does TA&M, better than some private school counterparts.

Working where I work I get all sorts of uppity fuckers who hang their hats on the prestige of their alma mater, and I have no problem--_zero_--telling them that in spite of their well-heeled academic pedigree they are still dumb fuckers who can't think their way out of bathroom stall.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 15, 2019)

Can we start setting bail higher for those accused of violent crimes please?  Lori Loughlin's bail was higher than R Kelly's ew.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 15, 2019)

DozerB said:


> A great point that was raised in all of this is that if these prestigious, elitist institutions are so academically rigorous, then how did unqualified/underqualified cake-eaters manage to stay enrolled, and in some cases, GRADUATE? Could it be that the myth of superior academic rigor at Ivy League schools is an oft-repeated yet inaccurate myth and that these top-tier schools are not so academically challenging after all?
> 
> As a state school graduate, I don't want to say I hope so, but I hope so. #MakeStateSchoolGreatAgain



That’s one of the many dirty little secrets of this whole thing.  It is only hard to get into these types of schools, it is not hard at all to stay there.  In fact the entire system is constructed to get you through.  And if you are part of a favored demographic, there are even more programs to get you through.  Grade inflation is rampant;  a B- was considered the “Yale fail.”


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## Chopstick (Mar 16, 2019)

I remember being all bent out of shape with my son because he was skipping taking his SAT so that he could participate in a trip with the DEP he was going to be signing with.  He was still in High School and we already had paid for the test and would have to pay a rescheduling penalty or something if he did not take the SAT as scheduled if I recall correctly.  Regardless he refused to miss this DEP trip as they were going to The National Museum of the United States Marine Corps and it was considered mandatory.  My son's recruiter said he would be excused if he wanted to take the SAT but that did not fly with my son.  Looking back I was so apprehensive for him not to have an SAT score on his record because I was still hung up on him possibly attending college if for some reason he would be unable to get in the Marine Corps as he had not yet gone to MEPS.  Watching this current college scandal mess just underscores to me how much smarter my kids are than I am.  Matt served in the Marines, and is now following his brother into the IBEW to be a journeyman electrician.   Both of them are making bank and don't owe any education loans whatsoever. 
It's sad to me that these people that blew all this money to cheat their kids into colleges, I think dont see their children the same way I see mine.  They have "accessories".  I have sons that I am proud of because they swam against the flow of the system and I respect what they have become by their own choice.  I dont think these cheating parents have enough money to buy that.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 16, 2019)

lindy said:


> I don’t think you’re making the case you think you’re making. Rich people “think” they can do whatever they want because they can afford to buy their way out of a jam.
> 
> Fuck the rich who fuck the unrich. (Graduated from junor college)




I'm not sure what you mean.  Elite schools is the great leavener of opportunity in the US.  They open the doors to the levers of power in business, education, politics, and the media.


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## policemedic (Mar 16, 2019)

Box said:


> Protests
> 
> We need some good old grassroots ANTIFA style, vagina-hat -wearing protesters to get out in the streets and call out this blatant abuse of white privilege.



 All I heard was we need vagina.


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## policemedic (Mar 16, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> I think some people don’t appreciate what a big deal this is because they don’t realize how life-changing it can be to go to one of these schools.  The resources and opportunities afforded by some of these institutions put theor graduates on a path not just to the middle class, but to the upper strata of the upper class.
> 
> Look at the people who run this country and look at where they went to school.



This must really piss you off. I know you earned your place in grad school. Knowing that some people got in for a donation.... hmmm.


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## policemedic (Mar 16, 2019)

SpitfireV said:


> So I take it in general your approach to law enforcement is "don't do it"? My point is, the cost is irrelevant since it's budgeted for anyway. Where is the line drawn as to what is "worth" it (in a financial sense) to you?



Law enforcement—the use of government power to enforce the laws enacted by and for the public through their democratically elected representatives—should never, ever care about what it costs to arrest or prosecute someone.


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## SpitfireV (Mar 16, 2019)

policemedic said:


> Law enforcement—the use of government power to enforce the laws enacted by and for the public through their democratically elected representatives—should never, ever care about what it costs to arrest or prosecute someone.



100%.


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## policemedic (Mar 16, 2019)

DozerB said:


> Yeah, I was sort of leading the witness with those questions, because what you've said is undeniably true, and anyone with a brain can pretty easily come to that conclusion. Especially in our business, is the Naval Academy or Princeton grad any more capable than the Ohio State or Texas A&M grad (though the A&M grad will certainly be the most obnoxious about his alma mater)? Of course not. They're all 2ndLts who have to figure it out the hard way. There's no standardized testing as a platoon commander for which you can study all night and day and get a 100%. But when it comes time to transition (careers, not genders) the former have an undeniable advantage, probably due to either the prestige/shock factor or alumni network, or a combination of the two.
> 
> I've known Community College grads who I would pick to be on my team every day of the week, and Harvard grads who were so infatuated with their own intelligence that they didn't even care to know their Marines' names. And vice versa. Not to mention degree program. In no universe is chemical engineering at the University of Georgia easier or less meaningful than a Philosophy degree from Yale (obviously). But I'd be interested to see a study comparing like-degree programs from a state school and a top 10 Ivy. I'm not sure what they would "measure" in terms of actual career field effectiveness, but I'm sure it could be done. Or even just interviews with Fortune 500 CEOs to see if the recruiting factors actually translate over to success factors once those individuals are hired.
> 
> Disclaimer: I barely passed state college so if you're thinking I'm just a dumb, bitter, liberal-arts-degree holder that just needed a piece of paper in order to commission, you're probably not ENTIRELY wrong.



With respect, if you haven’t attended an Ivy perhaps   your understanding of the academic rigor may not be completely accurate.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 17, 2019)

DozerB said:


> Yeah, I was sort of leading the witness with those questions, because what you've said is undeniably true, and anyone with a brain can pretty easily come to that conclusion. Especially in our business, is the Naval Academy or Princeton grad any more capable than the Ohio State or Texas A&M grad (though the A&M grad will certainly be the most obnoxious about his alma mater)? Of course not. They're all 2ndLts who have to figure it out the hard way. There's no standardized testing as a platoon commander for which you can study all night and day and get a 100%. But when it comes time to transition (careers, not genders) the former have an undeniable advantage, probably due to either the prestige/shock factor or alumni network, or a combination of the two.
> 
> I've known Community College grads who I would pick to be on my team every day of the week, and Harvard grads who were so infatuated with their own intelligence that they didn't even care to know their Marines' names. And vice versa. Not to mention degree program. In no universe is chemical engineering at the University of Georgia easier or less meaningful than a Philosophy degree from Yale (obviously). But I'd be interested to see a study comparing like-degree programs from a state school and a top 10 Ivy. I'm not sure what they would "measure" in terms of actual career field effectiveness, but I'm sure it could be done. Or even just interviews with Fortune 500 CEOs to see if the recruiting factors actually translate over to success factors once those individuals are hired.
> 
> Disclaimer: I barely passed state college so if you're thinking I'm just a dumb, bitter, liberal-arts-degree holder that just needed a piece of paper in order to commission, you're probably not ENTIRELY wrong.




As a group, I think that Academy grads have a definitive and measurable advantage over both their ROTC and OCS counterparts through the company-grade ranks.  About the time they become senior captains most of that has evaporated.  But Academy grads are grossly over-represented in terms of commissioning numbers at the highest grades, so if you want to make a career out of it as an officer, it might pay to go the Academy route.

When it comes to the study you inquired about, *this one* isn't a direct match but it's pretty telling:



> The median annual earnings for an Ivy League graduate 10 years after starting amount to well over $70,000 a year. For graduates of all other schools, the median is around $34,000. But things get really interesting at the top end of the income spectrum. The top 10 percent of Ivy League grads are earning $200,000 or more ten years after starting school. The top earners of other schools, on the other hand, are making just a hair under $70,000.



It might be hard to tell if this is causation (i.e. going to one of these schools is what made these people earn so much more than their peers) or it might be simple correlation (these folks were going to be rock stars regardless and would have been making that high-end $$$ regardless of where they went to school).  I fall on the "causation" side.

I have a degree from a military junior college and one from one of the schools mentioned in the report, and as a broad categorization, if I had to pick between the two I'd rather have a team picked from the high-end school than the low-end, open-admission one.  Of course I'd rather cherry pick the best from both...

Not everyone who graduates from any school... Ranger School, BUD/S, the police academy, UPENN, whatever, is going to be a special person.  But it does seem to make it more likely.


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## Brill (Mar 17, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> Elite schools is the great leavener of opportunity in the US.  They open the doors to the levers of power in business, education, politics, and the media.



Americans don’t view “those people” favorably.  I’ve worked for managers from elite schools and I, as well as many peers, prefer to work for people from the service academies or a long military career. I’ve encountered a lot of “stupid people” (socially unaware or lack of practical experience) from the Ivy League but they don’t realize it and seem to expect minions to cower due to their degree vice knowledge.  I owe my financial status to experience and mindset acquiring from the military. 

I will never touch the power levers of the government and I’m fine with that. I would not want to rub shoulders with Page, Strok, Mcabe, Comey, Clapper, Hayden, Brennan, etc.

I think throughout history the military has afforded more Americans with opportunities for upward mobility than just elite education alone. However, GI Bill —> Ivy League degree = golden goose!


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## Teufel (Mar 17, 2019)




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## Kaldak (Mar 17, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> Blowing up the NCAA would be helpful.  But definitely eliminate that sliding scale.
> 
> Our friend is in sports information for Duke football, she said that 75% of SEC football players would not qualify at Duke (she held the same position for one of the Mississippi SEC schools).  College athletics, the NCAA, and admissions are such a racket.



My alma mater has lost it's fair share of home state athletes to other schools, because we wouldn't budge on minimum test scores. There are State run schools out there that do maintain standards...any those that don't.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 18, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> The top 10 percent of Ivy League grads are earning $200,000 or more ten years after starting school.




_*Looks at $160k Gross Income from a Commercial Drivers License*

*Looks at only having worked for 8 months in the year*_

GO YALE! _*snerk*_


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## DozerB (Mar 18, 2019)

policemedic said:


> With respect, if you haven’t attended an Ivy perhaps   your understanding of the academic rigor may not be completely accurate.



This is extremely offensive. You will be hearing from my daddy errrr I mean laywer (who's definitely NOT my Dad).


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## Dienekes (Mar 26, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> I’m not talking about the schools, although they may bear some culpability as well.  The schools should sanction the students if they got in through bribery, or at least make them re-apply.  And if they knew they cheated to get in, they should have their degrees revoked if they are grads.
> 
> The people who didn’t get in should sue the people who defrauded them out of their spots in these life-changing schools.





Marauder06 said:


> I think some people don’t appreciate what a big deal this is because they don’t realize how life-changing it can be to go to one of these schools.  The resources and opportunities afforded by some of these institutions put their graduates on a path not just to the middle class, but to the upper strata of the upper class.
> 
> Look at the people who run this country and look at where they went to school.



I completely agree with Marauder on this one. I had always suspected, but didn't quite understand it myself until I simply put one of those schools on my resume. Organizations that never even emailed me back gave me interviews (and I have applied to a metric fuckton of internships) before I had even attended Day 1 of the program. The biggest thing is that recruiters and top notch organizations rely heavily on reputation of the school/program and their alumni base on entry-level hiring.

It would amaze you the level of networking just inherent in attending one of these schools. There are professors people take simply because they used to be someone high up at X company or agency and a referral from them basically assures you a job. There was a small competition held this past weekend on campus that resulted in an automatic internship for the top 2 winning teams. The State Department in particular hires the vast, vast majority of its Foreign Service Officers from the top 10 international relations grad schools with just ONE of those schools making up the equivalent of the next 5 combined, and I would imagine other foreign policy-related government agencies hire similarly. I cannot tell you how many ambitious undergrads at my old school would have killed for opportunities like that.

Now with that said, coming from a small town in the Deep South, I certainly don't feel like I belong here in a cultural context that is for damn certain. These just aren't my people, and while there are a ton of just plain good people here, I find myself missing home a lot simply for the Southern feel. I have stepped off the plane and noticed a palpable difference by just sitting in a random restaurant back home vs one in DC. On the other hand, when I go home and tell people that I go to X school, my parents and I both feel the need to say that the Army is footing the bill when I hear the inevitable "Oh that must be expensive!" while I doubt many of the students here have heard similar comments.




DozerB said:


> A great point that was raised in all of this is that if these prestigious, elitist institutions are so academically rigorous, then how did unqualified/underqualified cake-eaters manage to stay enrolled, and in some cases, GRADUATE? Could it be that the myth of superior academic rigor at Ivy League schools is an oft-repeated yet inaccurate myth and that these top-tier schools are not so academically challenging after all?
> 
> As a state school graduate, I don't want to say I hope so, but I hope so. #MakeStateSchoolGreatAgain



I can tell you that the rigor is not much different, and it is a myth except for maybe, maybe in the STEM fields but that's only due to better facilities rather than rigorous curriculum. I have 2 degrees in different fields from my old small state school with a range of electives through different departments. I am now in a different field for my masters along with a certificate in yet another different field (4 fields in total). Not only this, but I went to a pretty reputable language immersion program where many of the kids from these schools go to get their language requirement out of the way or get recruited for international jobs. The level of academic rigor is perfectly comparable. What I have definitely noticed is the difference in the quality of the average student. ROTC allows me an opportunity to interact with undergrads from about 4 different schools, and I expected far more of a bell curve than I have seen. Even in the younger classes, almost all of these kids really are high quality individuals. 

Now this big name school has far more interesting (re: specialized) classes along with a much larger cadre of qualified and experienced professors with a vast range of not only extra-curricular clubs (the kind that actually do impressive stuff rather than just show up once a month and take dues) but even continuous skills workshops in negotiations, coding, entrepreneurship, etc. Many of these things would not have been taken full advantage of by the average student at my old school, but are very competitive to get into here. Regardless, what I have noticed is that the quality of student is what determines the quality of education. 

Take one class with X assigned readings and 2 papers. Student 1 does the bare minimum to get an A since 25% of the final grade is class participation. Student 2 engages with the material and on his own time reads history on the material for context and even buys a book from a prominent scholar on the subject from Amazon's latest top seller's list for current perspectives on the subject. Student 1 writes his papers in the typical "I read the stuff and can do a simple inference on what that means" in the basic college format. Student 2 takes a risk and examines an emerging dilemma in this subject and offers his own analysis and recommendations in an innovative and story-telling fashion that is actually fun to read. Both students get A's but who gets a better education? Now assume Student 1 goes to Harvard and Student 2 goes to Mississippi Delta State (made up).

I firmly believe that the military is one of the best options for an individual with middle to low income background to improve their lot in life, and I am still just a cadet. I heavily attribute my acceptance in this program to having an ROTC scholarship on my application whereas many of these grad students went to top 100 and most commonly top 20 schools worldwide with extensive international experience. Now, our academic performances are perfectly equivalent, but how can a middle class or lower kid from an unranked state school stand out to get accepted into something like this without the military or comparable thing? They can't afford to go take an unpaid internship somewhere let alone spend 10s of thousands of dollars to study abroad when most of those scholarships are reserved for the top-ranked schools. 
*Note: I am reading Strangers in Their Own Land about not-exactly-redneckville Louisiana (my home state), similar in essence to Hillbilly Elegy, and this is a subject that really means a lot to me. I keep using unranked because there are plenty of high-quality state schools (NC State, Ohio State, etc.)

Additionally, I know that rich people will always do rich people shit, but things like the Harvard admissions scandal and the very concept of legacies really pisses me off. Do you want to know one of the most institutionally entrenched reasons for this concept of "privilege"? Look at legacy admissions. Marauder is right that these types of schools can be life-changing, and a rigged system like this especially for a largely liberal apparatus like the Ivory Tower is one of the foundational reasons for the vast polarity in our society right now.


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## Brill (Mar 26, 2019)

Dienekes said:


> The State Department in particular hires the vast, vast majority of its Foreign Service Officers from the top 10 international relations grad schools with just ONE of those schools making up the equivalent of the next 5 combined, and I would imagine other foreign policy-related government agencies hire similarly.



As I noted with @Marauder06 , you’re not making the case you think you are.  State FS officer are by and large fricken idiots who believe the shit they’ve fed via their silver spoon education. The best FS guys I’ve met were from the service academies and had real world experience.


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## Dienekes (Mar 26, 2019)

lindy said:


> As I noted with @Marauder06 , you’re not making the case you think you are.  State FS officer are by and large fricken idiots who believe the shit they’ve fed via their silver spoon education. The best FS guys I’ve met were from the service academies and had real world experience.



Hence the rest of the post about education quality. I've heard similar things about State and its ineptitude. The point, though, for example purposes only, is that FSO is still a highly coveted gig with significant potential for follow-on success in the private sector while the department only hires from a small subset of the actual eligible population. The ultimate point being that those schools help you get where you want to go. I never said they'd be good at their jobs.


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## Brill (Mar 26, 2019)

Dienekes said:


> Hence the rest of the post about education quality. I've heard similar things about State and its ineptitude. The point, though, for example purposes only, is that FSO is still a highly coveted gig with significant potential for follow-on success in the private sector while the department only hires from a small subset of the actual eligible population. The ultimate point being that those schools help you get where you want to go. I never said they'd be good at their jobs.



I’m not saying they’re “bad” but clueless how the real world works and that causes problems when folks are trying to get stuff done.  I think collectively they are Ivy League and are legends in their own mind.

There still are people who want to earn their lot in life and avoid the easy path. Money and prestige isn’t everything...but it sure does help!!!


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## Totentanz (Mar 26, 2019)

lindy said:


> I’m not saying they’re “bad” but clueless how the real world works and that causes problems when folks are trying to get stuff done.  I think collectively they are Ivy League and are legends in their own mind.
> 
> There still are people who want to earn their lot in life and avoid the easy path. Money and prestige isn’t everything...but it sure does help!!!



"Legends in their own mind" is a very accurate descriptor of (most of) the FSOs I've met.  

There was a point when I considered pursuing employment with State.  Meeting their people changed that for me.


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## Grunt (Mar 26, 2019)

Totentanz said:


> "Legends in their own mind" is a very accurate descriptor of (most of) the FSOs I've met.
> 
> There was a point when I considered pursuing employment with State.  Meeting their people changed that for me.



Like any agency, theirs has no shortage of clowns which paint a horrible picture for the good ones. I know some that are outstanding people...and then, I know some that I wouldn't let wash my car without supervision.


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## Brill (Mar 27, 2019)

Grunt said:


> I know some that I wouldn't let wash my car without supervision.



 Stealing that!!!


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## Marauder06 (Mar 29, 2019)

lindy said:


> As I noted with @Marauder06 , you’re not making the case you think you are. State FS officer are by and large fricken idiots who believe the shit they’ve fed via their silver spoon education. The best FS guys I’ve met were from the service academies and had real world experience.



OK, that’s great.  But by what metric are you measuring?  Personal anecdotes?  That’s not a particularly good way to back up an argument.  Facts are better.  The great advantage of facts over anecdotes is that facts help us overcome our biases and jealousies and take an objective look at a particular topic.  So let’s look at some facts:

The fact is, the common measurement of national power consists of four basic elements: diplomatic, information, military, and economic. In our country many, if not most, of the people in the highest levels of those areas are typically educated either at an Ivy League school (Harvard, Yale, Columbia, Cornell, Brown, Princeton, University of Pennsylvania, and Dartmouth) or an elite school like Georgetown, Stanford, or UCLA, or one of the Service Academies (West Point, Air Force Academy, Naval Academy, Coast Guard Academy).  Many of the schools I just named are at the heart of this current admissions scandal, and others have had their own admissions-related issues in the past.

The fact is, graduates from those schools have better connections, more opportunities, and better earnings potential than those who don’t:



> The median annual earnings for an Ivy League graduate 10 years after starting amount to well over $70,000 a year. For graduates of all other schools, the median is around $34,000. But things get really interesting at the top end of the income spectrum. The top 10 percent of Ivy League grads are earning $200,000 or more ten years after starting school. The top earners of other schools, on the other hand, are making just a hair under $70,000.



And, as others (including you) have mentioned, the key benefit to those schools are the branding and the connections.  Those are the foundations that facilitate long-term success for many of the people who are the tops of their fields.

The fact is, whether we like them or hate them or think they’re stupid or whatever, elite schools, particularly the Ivies, are grossly over-represented in the biographies of the people who run our country and influence our lives.

Just a few examples (including schools that do not fit into the ones I listed above):

*Military
Almost all of our top military leaders have an elite school connection.*
Gen. Dunford, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs: MA from Georgetown and another one from The Fletcher School.
GEN Milley, Chief of Staff of the Army: Princeton undergrad, MA from Columbia.
Gen. David Goldfein, Chief of Staff of the Air Force:  Air Force Academy.
Gen. Robert Neller, Commandant of the Marine Corps:  University of Virginia and Pepperdine
ADM John Richardson, Chief of Naval Operations:  Naval Academy.

*The Supreme Court*
_Every single sitting Supreme Court Justice went to law school at one of the the Ivies. Only one of them didn't graduate from Harvard Law or Yale Law. Only one of them didn't go to an Ivy as an undergrad (although it was also a prestigious school):_
Chief Justice John Roberts attended Harvard for both undergrad and law school.
Associate Justice Brett Kavanaugh attended Yale and Yale Law.
Associate Justice Alito attended Princeton and Yale Law.
Associate Justice Breyer went to Stanford and then Harvard Law.
Associate Justice Ginsberg went to Cornell, then started law school at Harvard before finishing at Columbia.
Associate Justice Gorsuch did undergrad at Columbia and then Harvard Law.
Associate Justice Kagan... Princeton and Harvard Law.
Associate Justice Sotomayor... Princeton and Yale Law.

*Last Five Presidents:*
_The last five presidents of the United States all have a connection to an Ivy league school._
Donald Trump earned an MBA from UPENN.
Barack Obama went to Columbia for undergrad then Harvard Law.
George W. Bush did Yale undergrad and Harvard Business School.
Bill Clinton went to Georgetown, Oxford, and Yale Law.
George H. W. Bush went to Yale.

*Last Five SecStates:*
_Three of the five last SecStates had a connection to an Ivy, four of the five attended an elite school._
Mike Pompeo: West Point and Harvard Law.
Rex Tillerson: University of Texas.
Hillary Clinton did Yale Law.
John Kerry did Yale Law.
Condoleeza Rice: Notre Dame and U Denver
On a side note, the prevalence of Ivy Leaguers within the State Department is such that a common complaint is that it is "t*oo white, male, and Yale*."

*Economy*
The Five Richest People In America
Jeff Bezos went to Princeton.
Bill Gates dropped out of Harvard.
Warren Buffett :  UPENN and Columbia.
Mark Zuckerberg (as mentioned, dropped out of Harvard).
Larry Page did MA and PhD work at Stanford.
* 
Media*
Rupert Murdoch (Fox News, many others) went to Oxford (his current wife went to Yale).
John Stankey, the CEO of Warner Media (CNN) got his MBA at UCLA.
Jeff Zucker (NBC, CNN) went to Harvard.
Mark Zuckerberg, founder of Facebook, started his company while a student at Harvard (before dropping out).
…there are probably many more I’m not going to look up any more.

So, to conclude, correlation is not necessarily causation.  If you go to an Ivy League school you are not guaranteed to be a billionaire, a general, a President, or the owner of a major media outlet.  But chances are you WON’T be one of those, in America, unless you have the branding, the connections, and yes the education, that comes from one of these schools.

That’s why the stakes are so high, that’s why so many people are willing to do ANYTHING to get themselves or their children into these schools, and that’s why the rest of us should care.  Because the people who go to these schools end up running our country and making decisions that affect all of our lives.


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## Brill (Mar 29, 2019)

@Marauder06 , I was not measuring but merely passing along experience from personal interactions over many years. I 100% agree that an Ivy League degree on the wall enables higher salary and better opportunities.

My position is that a brand of sheepskin is not equated to knowledge, skills, and ability.

I don’t disagree. I just think the school impresses the people who went to that school and not the American GenPop.


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## Salt USMC (Mar 29, 2019)

Point of order: POTUS attended UPenn for undergrad and does not have an MBA.

Back into my lane!


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## Devildoc (Mar 29, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> Point of order: POTUS attended UPenn for undergrad and does not have an MBA.
> 
> Back into my lane!



Back two years.  First two at Fordham.


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## Devildoc (Mar 29, 2019)

NM.  I was just going to reiterate what @Marauder06 said and I am not as literate.


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## Salt USMC (Mar 29, 2019)

As @Marauder06 demonstrates, the most valuable dividend from an elite education is elite posting skills!


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## amlove21 (Mar 29, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> As @Marauder06 demonstrates, the most valuable dividend from an elite education is elite posting skills!


Case studies, however, are NOT very popular at Ivy League schools/institutions.


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## AWP (Mar 29, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> Case studies, however, are NOT very popular at Ivy League schools/institutions.



I'm closing the internet for the day. You won. See y'all tomorrow!


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## LibraryLady (Mar 29, 2019)

AWP said:


> I'm closing the internet for the day. You won. See y'all tomorrow!


Oh, good. I didn't want to work today, anyway...

LL


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## Brill (Mar 30, 2019)

I saw this on a site regarding a completely different topic but it got me thinking about my own position vs @Marauder06 on the scandal.  I think the writer goes a bit far but the premise seems to ring true to me.



> First things first.  *We cannot approach the analysis of .... *(here, college scandal)* or any of the officials within the closed-circle of the DC fiefdom from a reference drawn from our own personal experiences.*  The people we are discussing are not connected to a frame of reference carried by 99% of the American population.
> 
> The DC elites are people born to live in a hierarchy of power and position disconnected from any external tribe.  Their sense of self-importance is affirmed by perceived status and expressed through their daily conduct. A world of think-tanks, superiority training, traditions and policy-making enhances their sanctimonious self-importance at a pathological level.
> 
> ...



I wonder how many Ivy League graduates go on to lead “normal” lives or the the school merely a pathway TO a higher status? Hmmm.


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## Devildoc (Mar 30, 2019)

lindy said:


> I saw this on a site regarding a completely different topic but it got me thinking about my own position vs @Marauder06 on the scandal.  I think the writer goes a bit far but the premise seems to ring true to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how many Ivy League graduates go on to lead “normal” lives or the the school merely a pathway TO a higher status? Hmmm.



Given that a lot of ivy league and higher tier (i.e., Duke, Stanford, UT, etc.) graduates go into jobs with higher pay and better connections, there is a misplaced perception of normalcy. There is their normal, and regular Joe normal.  

What I have found to be interesting is how many graduates of these schools could not get jobs in their degree fields (art history, sociology) and have gone to get a second degree in nursing, sometimes at the local community college.


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## Salt USMC (Mar 30, 2019)

Is posting on Shadowspear indicative of a normal life?


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## Devildoc (Mar 30, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> Is posting on Shadowspear indicative of a normal life?



Ain't nothing normal about this site or who posts here....


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## amlove21 (Mar 30, 2019)

I loved the Dr. Dre post that got IMMEDIATELY sussed out. 

On 'The Next Episode' of College Scandals, Dr. Dre Deletes a Boastful Instagram Post on His Daughter After USC Donations Surface


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## policemedic (Mar 30, 2019)

lindy said:


> I saw this on a site regarding a completely different topic but it got me thinking about my own position vs @Marauder06 on the scandal.  I think the writer goes a bit far but the premise seems to ring true to me.
> 
> 
> 
> I wonder how many Ivy League graduates go on to lead “normal” lives or the the school merely a pathway TO a higher status? Hmmm.



I think it depends on what they study. 

I have many friends who graduated from an Ivy. Most are doctors or nurses (both RNs and CRNAs). Their career trajectory has been normal for those professions. 

One of my colleagues is finishing up an undergrad degree in criminology at an Ivy, and is considering continuing into a graduate program. Another is in a graduate program in organizational development at that same Ivy—a degree held by my chief and and another senior leader in my department. 

My chief makes crazy money and wields influence disproportionate to their position. The senior leader, not so much. My colleague in the criminology program has no illusions of joining a think tank or some such after graduation (although he is doing very interesting research on functional magnetic resonance imaging and polygraphs). 

I do also know some folks whose Ivy education formed the keystone of hugely successful careers. These folks did not study medicine, nursing, criminology or leadership. 

This is an interesting discussion that reminds me of the nature vs nurture debate. But the truth is that people who graduate from Ivy League schools will have connections and opportunities that many others will not. 

There is a reason that job listings on LinkedIn show me how many alumni from my school work at a particular company.


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## Devildoc (Mar 30, 2019)

@policemedic , I really can't say much about most degrees.  I know with a lot of "soft" majors school is largely irrelevant.  I suppose in grad school it can change the trajectory as you get closer to the important professors and researchers and further away from TAs.

I know medical school doesn't always matter as much as residency, and a lot of residencies are more who you know than what you know as far as getting in.

Nursing schools, unless you are applying for a job in nursing leadership or academia, it doesn't matter. It doesn't matter at all. Has a hiring manager I will hire a nurse from the community college as quickly as it would hire a nurse from Duke.

But I know there's always exceptions to rules.  But definitely do better universities, including the ivy league, can have influence over career trajectories beyond what the actual degree is in.


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## Brill (Mar 30, 2019)

policemedic said:


> This is an interesting discussion that *reminds me of the nature vs nurture debate.* But the truth is that people who graduate from Ivy League schools will have connections and opportunities that many others will not.



EXCELLENT point!


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## SOSTCRNA (Mar 31, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> @policemedic , I really can't say much about most degrees.  I know with a lot of "soft" majors school is largely irrelevant.  I suppose in grad school it can change the trajectory as you get closer to the important professors and researchers and further away from TAs.
> 
> I know medical school doesn't always matter as much as residency, and a lot of residencies are more who you know than what you know as far as getting in.
> 
> ...



It may not matter to you as the hiring manager but I can tell you with out a doubt that it can make a difference on the “nursing floor”. Mediocre and good schools usually produce competent new grad nurses bu some of these little CC ADN programs don’t give the new RNs what it takes to be at least safe when they start.  And being good is years away.

Most people on the administrative side consider filling a slot with any nurse they can hire as good enough-throw them in and let them get swallowed by the system.  Nurses are treated like another supply item, get them in, use them up, order some more.  May as well be a bed pan.


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## Devildoc (Mar 31, 2019)

SOSTCRNA said:


> It may not matter to you as the hiring manager but I can tell you with out a doubt that it can make a difference on the “nursing floor”. Mediocre and good schools usually produce competent new grad nurses bu some of these little CC ADN programs don’t give the new RNs what it takes to be at least safe when they start.  And being good is years away.
> 
> Most people on the administrative side consider filling a slot with any nurse they can hire as good enough-throw them in and let them get swallowed by the system.  Nurses are treated like another supply item, get them in, use them up, order some more.  May as well be a bed pan.



Can you share the data that supports that? Happy to take it in a PM or email.  The data I have for the research shows otherwise, so if you have data that shows it I would love to see it.  Not calling you out at all.... I am fully aware that when I did my lit searches that I could have overlooked the research.  I would also be interested to see if there is any pre-licensure difference between the curriculum of community colleges across state lines to see how that filters out as well.  

FWIW our institution routinely gets applicants for the clinical nurse 1 (CN1) position from almost every school in North Carolina, and a good handful from throughout the US, so we have a very stratified population from which to choose.  There is extremely little qualitative difference between the private school top 5 BSN program and the local community college.

Internal to our institution our research has shown that there's very little competence for clinical difference between graduate nurses despite program, although some may be better in certain areas than others.  We do see a difference after one year of work, and see that the nursing leadership and education during orientation and the first-year practice makes more difference to their safety and outcome.

Of course this is different than certification, in which there is data to support that certified nurses are safer and have better outcomes than non certified nurses,. What I would like to see his certification versus month certification correlated with years of experience to see how that data filters.

Don't even get me started on DNP....


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## Dienekes (Mar 31, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> @policemedic , I really can't say much about most degrees.  I know with a lot of "soft" majors school is largely irrelevant.  I suppose in grad school it can change the trajectory as you get closer to the important professors and researchers and further away from TAs.



I am supposing that by soft you mean social sciences and humanities in which case I would whole-heartedly disagree with you. I would say that STEM degrees are a little more "objective" in that science is science (like you stated with nurses), and you either know it or you don't excepting little differences in faculty curricula and teaching skill whereas in a "soft" class, your perceptions and grasp of the material can be highly dependent on your faculty with bigger name programs generally possessing what are perceived to be more capable faculty (I disagree, I think they have just distinguished themselves with research, but I digress). These non-STEM degrees, business degrees, and others are where school reputation matters much more, whether that's going to a reputable grad/professional school or an entry-level job.


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## Devildoc (Mar 31, 2019)

Dienekes said:


> I am supposing that by soft you mean social sciences and humanities in which case I would whole-heartedly disagree with you. I would say that STEM degrees are a little more "objective" in that science is science (like you stated with nurses), and you either know it or you don't excepting little differences in faculty curricula and teaching skill whereas in a "soft" class, your perceptions and grasp of the material can be highly dependent on your faculty with bigger name programs generally possessing what are perceived to be more capable faculty (I disagree, I think they have just distinguished themselves with research, but I digress). These non-STEM degrees, business degrees, and others are where school reputation matters much more, whether that's going to a reputable grad/professional school or an entry-level job.



Just for my own edification, can you show me a top 10 sociology program? And where a bachelor's degree in sociology can get you into the job market > $60k?  Or English? Or art history? Or women's studies?

A degree with any of these from a Yale, Duke, Princeton, Stanford will probably get you more money than a Northeastern Montana State, but generally that is globally not the case.  I would even argue that a degree from one of those schools will not get you much more then from a school that is not top-tier.  Graduate school, maybe.  Undergrad, I don't think so.


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## Dienekes (Mar 31, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> Just for my own edification, can you show me a top 10 sociology program? And where a bachelor's degree in sociology can get you into the job market > $60k?  Or English? Or art history? Or women's studies?
> 
> A degree with any of these from a Yale, Duke, Princeton, Stanford will probably get you more money than a Northeastern Montana State, but generally that is globally not the case.  I would even argue that a degree from one of those schools will not get you much more then from a school that is not top-tier.  Graduate school, maybe.  Undergrad, I don't think so.



You said school choice for one of those majors doesn't matter. I'd argue an English major is not trying to join the private sector straight out of undergrad compared to a kid with a mechanical engineering degree. Obviously, degree choice matters, but comparing them that way is comparing apples to oranges. You're not gonna get a degree in art history and go work for Wall Street. No one is disputing that. But that English degree from Harvard has a better chance of getting into a top 15 Law school that will see this kid making big bucks 5 years out compared to an English degree NE Montana State. Comparing the kids getting those "soft" degrees and their career opportunities via school reputation is what we're discussing here. Not whether a STEM degree is more marketable than a "soft" degree or a women's studies degree from Princeton compared to a construction management degree from WVU.

I would also argue that top-tier extends down to even the top 50 schools, but even the opportunities afforded the top 20 programs in the country are pretty different than those afforded to #30-50. Arguably still outstanding schools. Not even arguable really. Anything top 50 is outstanding and something to be proud of, but those are the kids who probably could have gotten into those top 20 or Ivy schools who've really gotten the shaft and where the margins more akin to this discussion lie.


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## LibraryLady (Mar 31, 2019)

For the record, there is no NE Montana State College or University... or Community College either... 😋

LL


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## DA SWO (Mar 31, 2019)

LibraryLady said:


> For the record, there is no NE Montana State College or University... or Community College either... 😋
> 
> LL


They do have a stunt man school.


University of Great Falls.......


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## SOSTCRNA (Apr 1, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> Can you share the data that supports that? Happy to take it in a PM or email.  The data I have for the research shows otherwise, so if you have data that shows it I would love to see it.  Not calling you out at all.... I am fully aware that when I did my lit searches that I could have overlooked the research.  I would also be interested to see if there is any pre-licensure difference between the curriculum of community colleges across state lines to see how that filters out as well.
> 
> FWIW our institution routinely gets applicants for the clinical nurse 1 (CN1) position from almost every school in North Carolina, and a good handful from throughout the US, so we have a very stratified population from which to choose.  There is extremely little qualitative difference between the private school top 5 BSN program and the local community college.
> 
> ...



I'll PM you to keep from further derailing the thread.


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## Gunz (Apr 1, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> I loved the Dr. Dre post that got IMMEDIATELY sussed out.
> 
> On 'The Next Episode' of College Scandals, Dr. Dre Deletes a Boastful Instagram Post on His Daughter After USC Donations Surface




From the good doctor's doctoral dissertation:


But uhh, _*back to the lecture*_ at hand
Perfection is perfected, so I'ma let 'em understand
From a young G's perspective and before me dig out
A bitch I have to find a contraceptive


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## LibraryLady (Apr 1, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> They do have a stunt man school.
> 
> 
> University of Great Falls.......


To further detail the thread... A few years ago they renamed it University of Providence. Go Argonauts!  I wonder if they felt the words "Great Falls" was inappropriate for a Catholic institution?  

LL


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## Devildoc (Apr 1, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> They do have a stunt man school.
> 
> 
> University of Great Falls.......



They also have a Bible college that has intensives in the Bob Marshall...
That would be awesome.....


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## Lefty375 (Apr 1, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> Just for my own edification, can you show me a top 10 sociology program? And where a bachelor's degree in sociology can get you into the job market > $60k?  Or English? Or art history? Or women's studies?
> 
> A degree with any of these from a Yale, Duke, Princeton, Stanford will probably get you more money than a Northeastern Montana State, but generally that is globally not the case.  I would even argue that a degree from one of those schools will not get you much more then from a school that is not top-tier.  Graduate school, maybe.  Undergrad, I don't think so.



High tier schools funnel into finance and consulting which pays a lot. It's sufficient and necessary to have a high GPA for high tier firms, and it's alsosufficient to major in art history or women's studies. We don't even have a finance major at my school (lower ivy) and people go to high tier firms and start with salaries above 70k. I imagine if we had no people who wanted to "save the world" and took lower paying jobs the average would be much higher. It is, in fact, generally the case that you make more money. All the evidence (salary statistics) points toward this conclusion.

It's very much worth it. It's a golden ticket to a lot of money, if that's what you want. I'm part of an organziaiton that targets veterans for these schools specficially because it changes your life so much.

Top Colleges For Getting Rich


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## Brill (Apr 1, 2019)

NIU isn’t on there @Lefty375 ?


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## Gunz (Apr 1, 2019)

lindy said:


> NIU isn’t on there @Lefty375 ?



Nor are the Fighting Tridents of Eckerd College...


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## Devildoc (Apr 2, 2019)

Lefty375 said:


> High tier schools* funnel into finance and consulting *which pays a lot. It's sufficient and necessary to have a high GPA for high tier firms, and it's alsosufficient to major in art history or women's studies. We don't even have a finance major at my school (lower ivy) and people go to high tier firms and start with salaries above 70k. I imagine if we had no people who wanted to "save the world" and took lower paying jobs the average would be much higher. It is, in fact, generally the case that you make more money. All the evidence (salary statistics) points toward this conclusion.
> 
> It's very much worth it. It's a golden ticket to a lot of money, if that's what you want. I'm part of an organziaiton that targets veterans for these schools specficially because it changes your life so much.
> 
> Top Colleges For Getting Rich



Totally agree (and I have said as much earlier): high tier schools have higher earning power by virtue of being high tier schools:  the alumni network, name recognition, etc.  And if (big 'if') one can parlay that soft social major into something other that what the major actually is, than good on you.  Golden ticket and all.  But an undergrad sociology degree in and of itself from Harvard isn't going to see a significant change in salary or job than the same degree from Eastern North Carolina Polytechnic College.  

BTW, what is a "lower Ivy"?


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## Salt USMC (Apr 2, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> BTW, what is a "lower Ivy"?


It's a silly distinction for the IL schools that are somewhat easier to get into.  Which schools fall into that category vary, but usually it's Dartmouth/Brown/Penn/Cornell/Columbia.  The thing is that all of the schools have single-digit acceptance rates, and the distinction really only matters to bourgeois weirdos and anxious HS seniors.


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## Devildoc (Apr 2, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> It's a silly distinction for the IL schools that are somewhat easier to get into.  Which schools fall into that category vary, but usually it's Dartmouth/Brown/Penn/Cornell/Columbia.  The thing is that all of the schools have single-digit acceptance rates, and the distinction really only matters to bourgeois weirdos and anxious HS seniors.



Thanks for the clarification.  To me an ivy is an ivy is an ivy.  

Not for nothing, I have a friend who went to Princeton, his tag line is "I got in, how hard can it be?"  That is my tag line about Duke.  I loathe the snobbery.

As an aside, interestingly, UNC-Chapel Hill has county-apportioned acceptance ratios (it's a state mandate), and children of faculty are given unofficial priority.  So locally (my county and neighboring county) it is harder to get into UNC-CH than Duke; outside of these two counties, the ratio flips.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 2, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> Totally agree (and I have said as much earlier): high tier schools have higher earning power by virtue of being high tier schools:  the alumni network, name recognition, etc.  And if (big 'if') one can parlay that soft social major into something other that what the major actually is, than good on you.  Golden ticket and all.  But an undergrad sociology degree in and of itself from Harvard isn't going to see a significant change in salary or job than the same degree from Eastern North Carolina Polytechnic College.
> 
> BTW, what is a "lower Ivy"?



In addition to what Salty said, sometimes you might hear a reference to the "Big 3" or "HYP Ivies,"often made disparagingly towards the "non-HYP Ivies" which is everyone except for Harvard, Yale, and Princeton (HYP).  It's a silly, elitist, and unnecessary distinction, kind of like arguing over what SOF unit is best.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 2, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> Not for nothing, I have a friend who went to Princeton, his tag line is "I got in, how hard can it be?"  That is my tag line about Duke.  I loathe the snobbery.



I've met a lot of Yale undergrads who, when asked where they go to school, will name one of their residential colleges (think Hogwarts).  "Oh, I go to Trumbull College, it's a little liberal arts school in Connecticut."  It's kind of a humble-brag because you always ultimately find out that they went to Yale, I guess the false modesty makes the impact of finding out they went to Yale bigger, or something.


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## Devildoc (Apr 2, 2019)

@Marauder06 I guest lecture at Duke; the program is an accelerated bachelors program (18 months), and they all already have undergrad degrees.  They come with degrees from everywhere, and the elitist snobbery I get from those who went to Ivies and some of the high-tier public scools is remarkable.  I knock them down when I tell them, "yes, but apparently you couldn't get a job, otherwise you would not have come to Duke for another bachelors degree...."


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## Brill (Apr 2, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> @Marauder06 I guest lecture at Duke; the program is an accelerated bachelors program (18 months), and they all already have undergrad degrees.



I will probably get suspended for this but comedy is always worth it.

Accelerated Second Degree BSN - College of Nursing - Michigan State University


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## Devildoc (Apr 2, 2019)

lindy said:


> I will probably get suspended for this but comedy is always worth it.
> 
> Accelerated Second Degree BSN - College of Nursing - Michigan State University



I assure you theirs is a lot cheaper....


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## Brill (Apr 2, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> I assure you theirs is a lot cheaper....



Apparently MSU has a winning program...

Ok, I’ll stop now.


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## Devildoc (Apr 2, 2019)

lindy said:


> Apparently MSU has a winning program...
> 
> Ok, I’ll stop now.



Dude, the wound hasn't scabbed over yet....


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## Kaldak (Apr 3, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> @Marauder06 I guest lecture at Duke; the program is an accelerated bachelors program (18 months), and they all already have undergrad degrees.  They come with degrees from everywhere, and the elitist snobbery I get from those who went to Ivies and some of the high-tier public scools is remarkable.  I knock them down when I tell them, "yes, but apparently you couldn't get a job, otherwise you would not have come to Duke for another bachelors degree...."



Not college related directly, but I'll never forget my junior year of high school. That summer, I took a semester's worth of college chemistry, including labs, in three weeks. What my professor said, I think applies to graduate school, at top institutions.
_
"You all came here top in your class. Most of you as number one in your class. That doesn't matter anymore. You're all at zero right now"_


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## Marauder06 (Apr 27, 2019)

Another kind of admissions scandal.  She should have just enrolled in the Harvard Extension School like our old friend Will 

Blac Chyna's Harvard Business School online course enrollment is fake: reports


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## Gunz (Apr 27, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> Another kind of admissions scandal.  She should have just enrolled in the Harvard Extension School like our old friend Will
> 
> Blac Chyna's Harvard Business School online course enrollment is fake: reports






"Ask me about task specific supplements for Special Operations Forces and law enforcement tactical teams. And look for my Ad in Muscle Magazine." -- Will


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## Marauder06 (Apr 27, 2019)

Ocoka said:


> View attachment 27556
> 
> "Ask me about task specific supplements for Special Operations Forces and law enforcement tactical teams. And look for my Ad in Muscle Magazine." -- Will



But hey!  That "Harvard" degree though.


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