# Another Run on Ammo: DHS's New 900 Million Round Purchase



## JBS (Aug 13, 2012)

We know the DHS purchased 450 million rounds of hollow point ammo not too long ago.

_*The newest order*_ is *750 million* hollow point .40 caliber rounds- in addition to what has already been ordered.

Besides this, they're now buying* 150 million rounds* of .223.


This is approximately *double* the entire annual US Navy and US Marine Corps *war-time* budget for small arms ammunition *combined*- all for an agency that has no combat element.

The Market Watch press release covering the purchase order has apparently been pulled from the internet, for some reason. If anyone can find the original, it might be nice to read it, maybe find out WTF they're stockpiling all of this hollow point ammo for. Despite one person's account that they use it for practice, I find it a bit expensive to use hollow points for practice ammo unless you are in a specialized unit- in which case maybe 20% of your budget would go to high quality hollow points, and the rest would be ordinary jacketed practice rounds.  While there no doubt are specialized units in the DHS, I'd find it hard to believe they could burn off more ammo than all of the US Navy and the entire US Marine Corps during a time of two simultaneous wars.

http://www.marketwatch.com/Story/story/rescue?SourceUrl=http://www.marketwatch.com/story/atk-secures-40-caliber-ammunition-contract-with-department-of-homeland-security-us-immigration-and-customs-enforcement-dhs-ice-2012-03-12

If you're in the market for ammo, now is probably a good time to get what you can. As word of this spreads, it's likely to get scarce.


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## dknob (Aug 14, 2012)

lol come on now LOOON... there is nothing tyrannical going on that calls for a need to overthrow. Not now, not in 20 years. Republicans will always cry about Democrats and talk about taking up arms. It's a cyclical process for years. Remember the election before Obama? How many people screamed at the top of their lungs they will get up and leave the country? Based on my facebook status alone, I'd say 75% of Republicans on my friends list. None of those fuck tards went anywhere.

If people rise up because they are annoyed about Obamacare, a sluggish economy, or Gay's being allowed to marry nationwide. Then they *deserve* to be put down by DHS and their hollow points as the treasonous dogs they are. Revolution should be in the face of tyranny, not in the face of "im a fucking pampered American who is tired of paying $5 a gallon for gas".

Face it guys.. in your personal day to day activities... barely quantifiable changes occur whether its a Republican or Democrat president.


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## JBS (Aug 14, 2012)

Call it what you want to call it.

When a government agency with no combat element, and no military or expeditionary charter orders literally just shy of a billion rounds of ammunition, that's noteworthy.

I don't think anyone's calling for revolution because of the health care mandate, LOL. The question is what do the cards hold? Are they getting ready to push some wildly unpopular legislation? An executive order that won't go over well? Whatever it is, it sort of lends the appearance of preparation for something.

Consider that at the peak of the ammunition expenditures in Iraq and Afghanistan, the entire US military consumed about 72 million rounds of "small arms ammunition" in one year. That's the Army, Navy, Air Force and Marine Corps globally- every combat engagement_ in Iraq and Afghanistan._ Now, even if you *add* all the rifle ranges on all American bases across the face of the earth, you still get a consumption of roughly 400 million rounds in one year.


(*math edits)


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## Marauder06 (Aug 14, 2012)

That is a LOT of ammo.

I couldn't help but wonder if this was an attempt to control ammo supply... but it doesn't make sense because there are plenty of other categories out there, like 9mm.


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## JBS (Aug 14, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> ...


 
Well, sir, we do know the legislation to ban ammo sales on the internet has legitimately begun- about 2 weeks ago.


http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/30/politics/democrats-ammo-sales/
*Democrats propose ban on online ammo sales*


> *Washington (CNN)* -- Two Democratic lawmakers took on the hot-button political issue of gun control Monday,* introducing legislation that would effectively ban online ammunition sales.*
> 
> Longtime gun control advocates Sen. Frank Lautenberg, D-New Jersey, and Rep. Carolyn McCarthy, D-New York, introduced the bill that they said would prevent buyers from purchasing unlimited quantities of ammunition through the Internet or through the mail. The bill would also require ammunition dealers to report bulk ammo sales to law enforcement.
> "It's time to close the loophole that's allowing killers -- deranged, insane -- and even terrorists to buy ammunition online," Lautenberg said Monday at a news conference on the steps of Manhattan's City Hall. "You don't have to be a scientist to understand how wrong this is."


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## LOOON (Aug 14, 2012)

dknob said:


> lol come on now LOOON... there is nothing tyrannical going on that calls for a need to overthrow.


Not right now. Sure. I have hope that everything will find a way to work itself out. But at the rate we are going, our economy will completely collapse within the next 20 years. All one has to do is look to California to see where we are headed. A huge portion of the San Juaquine Valley in California has been turned into a desert waste land to protect a 2 inch long fish that migrated into the irrigation canals. At least two major cities have already filed for bankruptcy. The state is next.

They borrow and spend at levels that are only exceeded by our own federal government. Regardless of party, that shit can only go on so long. EVERYONE knows it can't last, and some keep saying the only salvation is to borrow and spend more...............money that can NEVER be paid back. The well is dry, and the fed can only print so much until the dollar becomes worthless.

Hyperinflation is already starting to set in. It's almost $4 / gallon of gas here in Iowa. That means it's probably over $5 in California. When will it end? When it all collapses is when. That's when you will see 10 million pissed off gun owners march on DC to remove the fucks in power. And when it happens, I will be leading from the front with gun strapped to my walker.


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## LOOON (Aug 14, 2012)

JBS said:


> Well, sir, we do know the legislation to ban ammo sales on the internet has legitimately begun- about 2 weeks ago.
> 
> 
> http://www.cnn.com/2012/07/30/politics/democrats-ammo-sales/
> *Democrats propose ban on online ammo sales*


I really love this quote *"It's time to close the loophole that's allowing killers -- deranged, insane -- and even terrorists to buy ammunition online,"*

That means that if you buy bulk ammunition over the net, you are a terrorist. Add this to the DHS memo that was released in 09 calling basically every member of this forum a "domestic terrorist".


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## dknob (Aug 14, 2012)

LOOON said:


> When will it end? When it all collapses is when. That's when you will see 10 million pissed off gun owners march on DC to remove the fucks in power. And when it happens, I will be leading from the front with gun strapped to my walker.


 
And replace it with who? 
We put a bunch of gun toting civilians in charge of the most powerful nation in the world and you think we come out of the dark ages?


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## JBS (Aug 14, 2012)

LOOON said:


> I really love this quote *"It's time to close the loophole that's allowing killers -- deranged, insane -- and even terrorists to buy ammunition online,"*
> 
> That means that if you buy bulk ammunition over the net, you are a terrorist. Add this to the DHS memo that was released in 09 calling basically every member of this forum a "domestic terrorist".


The Left have been calling vets dangerous "baby killers" for decades now. That part is nothing new. The difference is now all the pony-tailed professors and flower-power free-love pot smoking Marxist idiots have managed to get their guy into office (along with a train of radical leftist activist allies). As I posted before, Obama* literally* launched his Presidential campaign from the home of a domestic terrorist bomber who wanted to overthrow America and replace it with a Marxist version of government. How is that for some shit?

That's an indisputable* fact.*

So now they're in power, and their views are trickling into every wing of government. It's still "baby killer", but now it is in the documents of the newly formed DHS. It's "baby killer" with an official raised embossedseal and stamp.


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## JBS (Aug 14, 2012)

dknob said:


> And replace it with who?
> We put a bunch of gun toting civilians in charge of the most powerful nation in the world and you think we come out of the dark ages?


Dknob who do you think is supposed to run this country?

An oligarchy of elite super-wealthy rulers who are immune to the rule of law, hook each other up with billions of our dollars and fly around in private jets we paid for? That's what we got right now. Washington is very close to being completely consumed by corruption to the point where up until a few months ago, Congressmen were packing their freezers with $100 bills, and skipping taxes on their overseas beach houses.   They haven't passed a budget in 4 years, and nothing is getting done.  Our system is in danger and the only thing passing is things that get ramrodded by decree or executive order.

This country is supposed to be ruled by CONSENT. That consent is rapidly eroding.


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## LOOON (Aug 14, 2012)

dknob said:


> And replace it with who?


You hold new elections across the nation. Disolve the political parties and place a ban of former, rich politicians running. I want everyday, average Americans in DC.  Then you dratically lower the salaries and make it impossible for a guy to become a mulit millionaire after serving multiple terms in Congress. And you do that by placing term limits.

Serving in Congress used to be about service to the nation. Now it's the only job in the world where you can come from the ghetto and spend 20 years in there, and end up a gazillionaire.

Im not talking about destroying our way of government, Im talking about hitting a reset button.


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## dknob (Aug 14, 2012)

JBS said:


> Dknob who do you think is supposed to run this country?
> 
> An oligarchy of elite super-wealthy rulers who are immune to the rule of law, hook each other up with billions of our dollars and fly around in private jets we paid for? That's what we got right now. Washington is very close to being completely consumed by corruption to the point where up until a few months ago, Congressmen were packing their freezers with $100 bills, and skipping taxes on their overseas beach houses. They haven't passed a budget in 4 years, and nothing is getting done. Our system is in danger and the only thing passing is things that get ramrodded by decree or executive order.
> 
> This country is supposed to be ruled by CONSENT. That consent is rapidly eroding.


 
Brother this has been going on since World War I... if anything.. the super wealthy and elitists had more of a say of how our country was ran through the 20s to the 60s then the politicians of today. If anything.. politicians are less corrupt nowadays then they were in the past. Because it is so hard to get away with this shit in today's age. The trail of corruption could be acquired by anybody with an internet connection if you knew where to look. Obama, or Bush, or Romney, or whatever president at the time is not going to change the nature of the beast.

Our system is in danger yes.. but we will figure out a way to get through it because at the end of the day, there are people in this government who are competent and passionate enough to come up with a solution.

Too many people support the emperor (whether Dem or Republican) when they should be supporting the empire.


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## dknob (Aug 14, 2012)

LOOON said:


> You hold new elections across the nation. Disolve the political parties and place a ban of former, rich politicians running. I want everyday, average Americans in DC. Then you dratically lower the salaries and make it impossible for a guy to become a mulit millionaire after serving multiple terms in Congress. And you do that by placing term limits.
> 
> Serving in Congress used to be about service to the nation. Now it's the only job in the world where you can come from the ghetto and spend 20 years in there, and end up a gazillionaire.
> 
> Im not talking about destroying our way of government, Im talking about hitting a reset button.


 
What you are talking about would destroy the US for the next 50 years.


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## LOOON (Aug 14, 2012)

dknob said:


> What you are talking about would destroy the US for the next 50 years.


Quite possibly. And it would probably lead to a civil war. Middle of the country against the two coasts.

But Im not doing anything. The "destruction" is already happening. We are just dying a slow death. Rome is burning and too many people aren't paying attention.

And we are indeed Rome before the fall........


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## dknob (Aug 14, 2012)

Rome was burned by it's enemies more then it was from within.


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## Dame (Aug 14, 2012)

JBS said:


> We know the DHS purchased 450 million rounds of hollow point ammo not too long ago.
> 
> _*The newest order*_ is *750 million* hollow point .40 caliber rounds- in addition to what has already been ordered.
> 
> Besides this, they're now buying* 150 million rounds* of .223.


 
If the original article said 750 million rounds of .40 cal hollow point, then it was pulled for inaccuracy. The entire order of 750 million rounds includes all kinds of ammo. Still pretty scary considering the amount. A link to the purchase order (all 91 freakin' pages of it) is below.


> A solicitation originally issued by the DHS in April but updated on Friday calls on suppliers to provide a plethora of different types of ammunition, including 357 mag rounds that are able to penetrate walls.
> The PDF file for the solicitation lists the different units of ammo required by the thousand, with the total ammo purchase exceeding 750 million rounds.


http://www.prisonplanet.com/dhs-to-purchase-another-750-million-rounds-of-ammo.html


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## JBS (Aug 14, 2012)

Good post, Dame. I'm a bit slow to jump on sources until it becomes clear what the origin of the story was.

I think I'm going to wait a few days and see what press releases or other documents surface supporting the total quantity of 900 million.


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## Brooklynben (Aug 14, 2012)

Any time a government begins making inordinately large  domestic orders for ammunition as mentioned, including an 92,000 round order of .40S&W Hollow-point ammunition just for the NATIONAL WEATHER SERVICE???? - I'm not sure I need to wait for the political 'spin' or CNN / MSNBC to begin ridiculing anyone who dares ask 'why?'  Something is definitely up - and it's definitely not good.  https://www.fbo.gov/index?s=opportu...&id=bfd95987a1ad9a6dfb22bca4a19150cb&_cview=0

(Silly me... I forgot;  Obama remains close friends with William Ayers and Bernardine Dohrn, the Weather Underground terrorists of the 1960′s. (Weather Service / Weather Underground = "tomAto / tomato")


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## 0699 (Aug 14, 2012)

Sounds to me like someone is trying to spend the last of their FY 2012 budget.

"How much is left?  Screw it, buy some ammo..."


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## Dame (Aug 14, 2012)

JBS said:


> Good post, Dame. I'm a bit slow to jump on sources until it becomes clear what the origin of the story was.
> 
> I think I'm going to wait a few days and see what press releases or other documents surface supporting the total quantity of 900 million.


 
Here's the other thing... I just added up all that ammo. That order is for over 63 million rounds over 4 years. Unless there are other orders out there, I'm not sure where this 750 million figure is coming from. Again, I'm not saying that I'm not concerned that the Agriculture Dept needs millions of rounds to protect cattle and other food supplies (things that make me go hmmmm) but I'm still not seeing the quantities that are being reported.


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## AWP (Aug 14, 2012)

LOOON said:


> And we are indeed Rome before the fall........


 


dknob said:


> Rome was burned by it's enemies more then it was from within.


 
I hate the "America is Rome" argument/ example but it just isn't true or rather it oversimplifies Rome's mark on history and radically overstates America's. For America to equal Rome we'd have to essentially conquer 2 of the following 4: European Union, India, Russia, and China and we'd have the next 200 or so years to do it; we'd also have to take the additional steps of forcing a religion upon them and destroying or "modernizing" their cities to conform to American standards across the board. Razing buildings, temples, redesigning roads and the layout of the city, etc.

But the example is apt because of history. Most nations/ countries/ empires aren't "fortunate" to have a clean death like the Persians or Kwarazmians wherein a relatively strong and united nation was utterly crushed by outside forces. Rome, the Crusader States, the Mongols, Chinese dynasties, the Greek city-states, Alexander's Empire, and the Byzantines all "enjoyed" serious internal dissention and fighting prior to outside entities administering the killing blow. In every case trade was weak, the masses were angry, the people and government divided, and their armies weakened by it all; this all allowed for outside forces to get their plunder on. I'm sure if I did more digging I could find numerous European and Muslim examples over the course of the last millenia or so.

If you look at successful revolutions over the last 200 years, the same can be said for the above except that internal forces (the people or the army) deposed the government.

The English victory at Agincourt was in large part due to internal weaknesses with the French monarchy. The English failed to capitalize on their crushing victory and the French lived to fight another day.

To a lesser extent we could also cite the indigenous Americans who had they united against the Spanish would have destroyed the conquistadors. The Spanish capitalized on existing enmity within the various tribes/ people to win allies and weaken their opponents. In America tribes turned against other tribes and we used that to our advantage, decreasing the wars by a decade or two. Smallpox helped but Central and South America would be very different with or without it.

Dragging out the comparisons to Rome sounds great but most people tune it out; only a few will seize upon it. History has a long list of nations and empires which died as a result of their internal issues weakening them to the point that other forces could act upon them.


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## JBS (Aug 14, 2012)

Dame said:


> Here's the other thing... I just added up all that ammo. That order is for over 63 million rounds over 4 years. Unless there are other orders out there, I'm not sure where this 750 million figure is coming from. Again, I'm not saying that I'm not concerned that the Agriculture Dept needs millions of rounds to protect cattle and other food supplies (things that make me go hmmmm) but I'm still not seeing the quantities that are being reported.


I just went back and tried to pull the original press release citing the original 450 million round order.

I seem to remember that being a cut and dried case. At no time was there ever a question as to the validity of it.

Now that article seems to have been pulled as well.

Take a look: http://www.marketwatch.com/Story/st...ement-dhs-ice-2012-03-12?reflink=MW_news_stmp

That link is from Free's post originally here:
https://shadowspear.com/vb/threads/ammo-prices.13759/#post-208724


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## dknob (Aug 14, 2012)

Frankly there is no historical reference we can use to compare the modern interconnected world and its current problems/issues. It borders on the ridiculous to look at the Roman Empire for advice.

What we do now (the United States) in order to retain our seat as the uber-superpower of the world is what other countries of this era will utilize in the future if they find themseleves in a similar situation. Either the U.S. fails in the next 10 years (unlikely) or we get our shit together. But we have to give it time. We can't expect results right off the bat. Saying Obama's policies have led us here is demented. If in 4-8 years from now our country is utter shit. Then we can blame Obama. But last I checked, this shit sort of started with Bush. Yeah I'm sure I sound like a liberal.. but I tell it how it is.

Countries (not just Gov'ts) fail when they resort to isolationist policies. I shudder to think what would happen if Ron Paul ever became president. Every nation is connected to each other and there is no going back. What happens 5,000 miles away in one country can impact us negatively. This didn't apply to these "empires" of the past. We need to stop looking at them for examples, we need to make the new standard. And an open and armed revolution is not the answer unless this country succumbs to tyranny or fascism.

Just know Looon, in 20 years if your civil war did occur I'll be on the other end of that battlefield.


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## dknob (Aug 14, 2012)

But back to the original point of this DHS ammo purchase: holy fn shit, wtf do you need all that ammo for?!

Is it possible that the bulk of this ammo goes to the Coast Guard as they are part of DHS now?


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## JBS (Aug 14, 2012)

The internet "Way Back" machine finds nothing either. Maybe it wasn't out long enough to be archived.



dknob said:


> But back to the original point of this DHS ammo purchase: holy fn shit, wtf do you need all that ammo for?!
> 
> Is it possible that the bulk of this ammo goes to the Coast Guard as they are part of DHS now?


The Coast Guard needs more ammo than the entire US Navy and the entire US Marine Corps at a time when they are deployed in two simultaneous wars? Doesn't seem adequate as an explanation.  But hey what do I know.


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## CDG (Aug 14, 2012)

dknob said:


> But back to the original point of this DHS ammo purchase: holy fn shit, wtf do you need all that ammo for?!


 
The DOJ is under too much heat to be able to keep supplying the cartels, so they had to subcontract.


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## Dame (Aug 14, 2012)

JBS said:


> I just went back and tried to pull the original press release citing the original 450 million round order.
> I seem to remember that being a cut and dried case. At no time was there ever a question as to the validity of it.
> Now that article seems to have been pulled as well.
> Take a look: http://www.marketwatch.com/Story/story/rescue?SourceUrl=http://www.marketwatch.com/story/atk-secures-40-caliber-ammunition-contract-with-department-of-homeland-security-us-immigration-and-customs-enforcement-dhs-ice-2012-03-12?reflink=MW_news_stmp
> ...


 
I found it. It isn't a matter of validity. The press release is from the company that won the contract.
The problem is, people don't read. This contract was also over a four year time span and states that 450 million rounds was the POTENTIAL amount. That's the absolute maximum that could be purchased, not how much was purchased.
http://atk.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=25280&item=124123


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## JBS (Aug 14, 2012)

Dame said:


> I found it. It isn't a matter of validity. The press release is from the company that won the contract.
> The problem is, people don't read. This contract was also over a four year time span and states that 450 million rounds was the POTENTIAL amount. That's the absolute maximum that could be purchased, not how much was purchased.
> http://atk.mediaroom.com/index.php?s=25280&item=124123


 

Great find, here is the initial order amount:


> ATK (NYSE: ATK) announced that it is being awarded an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) agreement from the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (DHS, ICE) for .40 caliber ammunition. This contract features a base of 12 months,  includes four option years, and will have a maximum volume of 450 million rounds.


 

...4 years, 450 million rounds. That wouldn't be 63 million per year, that would be 112 million rounds per year.

So now all we need is the press release for the new, larger order for 750 million, and the picture will be a little more complete. It would also be good to see how long that 750 million is spread out over.


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## Dame (Aug 14, 2012)

JBS said:


> Great find, here is the initial order amount:
> ATK (NYSE: ATK) announced that it is being awarded an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) agreement from the Department of Homeland Security, U.S. Immigration and Customs Enforcement (DHS, ICE) for .40 caliber ammunition. This contract features a base of 12 months,  includes four option years, and will have a maximum volume of 450 million rounds.
> 4 years, 450 million rounds. I see where you get 63 million rounds (per year).
> So now all we need is the press release for the new, larger order for 750 million, and the picture will be a little more complete.


No, that isn't where I got the 63 million. I got that by adding up the second four year contract. The one that everyone claims is for 750 million. I left a link to the PDF. It's 91 pages but only the first 24 are ammo numbers. Add 'em up.


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## JBS (Aug 14, 2012)

OK, I follow.

I got *67,216,000* rounds- basically the same number you did, which tells me I 'm now looking at the same thing you are...


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## AWP (Aug 14, 2012)

Math, conspiracy theories, research, and history...all in two pages or less. Nicely done, folks. :)


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## dknob (Aug 15, 2012)

I still think this ammo is going to the Coast Guard


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## Marauder06 (Aug 15, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Math, conspiracy theories, research, and history...all in two pages or less. Nicely done, folks.


 
...and member arguments that resulted in no name-calling or personal insults; no one stomped off in a huff and/or got banned over it.


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## Chopstick (Aug 15, 2012)

dknob said:


> I still think this ammo is going to the Coast Guard


I wish they would give some to the USMC while they are at it.


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## JBS (Aug 15, 2012)

63 million rounds (or 67 million or whatever) is still a buttload of ammo, but nowhere near the 750 million to 900 million initially being reported.

I'm still keeping my eyes peeled for more credible sources to back up the larger purchase numbers, and even sent a few emails just to find out.


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## Dame (Aug 15, 2012)

Yeah, I'd sure like to know where that came from. Paul Joseph Watson of prisonplanet.com has a video embedded in his article about this. Yesterday the video title matched the article title with the "750 million" rounds. I challenged Alex Jones on Twitter to show me where that number came from as he was spreading this article around. He didn't reply and today the video is changed to "hundreds of millions" which is still wrong.

Dig dig dig

ETA: JBS I'm sure I probably missed a line item or something.


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## JBS (Aug 15, 2012)

That's really cool that you challenged Alex Jones on that.  I like that.


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## JBS (Aug 15, 2012)

Well...


Now they are either F*****'ng with the conspiracy theorists, or else the controversy drew unwanted attention which has now resulted in classification and redaction.

As much as I'd like to think it's a game being played, redactions don't get made for shits and giggles:

https://www.fbo.gov/utils/view?id=4c35c09c9315981b2f82beee2fc6629d

We are now in the dark. Probably not the best outcome.

Dame, looks like that'll be the last time we'll get a glimpse at real numbers.


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## Dame (Aug 15, 2012)

Yep, I saw that. Not sure about the redaction but someone out there was making a whole lot of noise about numbers that either didn't add up (literally) or were non-issues from the get-go. Another article cropped up about the SSA buying ammo. "Why are they buying 174K rounds of .357?" Um, maybe because their budget was cut. Previous years' purchases show 209K rounds. Turns out the SSA arms at least 39 sites of the Inspector General's office around the country.

We'll see if future orders are left open or not.


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## JBS (Aug 15, 2012)

Yeah 200k rounds not significant, but the standing order of up to 450 million that still exists and is an open order is significant and bears the watching of concerned citizens.  

If ammo purchases for the DHS start getting classified, that is far worse...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 16, 2012)

DHS has a metric fuck ton of agencies under its control, as well as funding a metric fuck ton of local LEA’s that are under equipped, under supplied, etc. Do I think this is something to “worry” about? Nope, not at all. Stupid admin fucks buy duty ammo for practice ammo, they over order due to ammo crunches that have been in recent years. I know of several LEA’s that only shot 50 rounds for the past 2 years, all because they could not get an ammo order filled. They had the coin, just could not get the order filled.

Also keep in mind that DHS did not have the same type of ammunition acquisition capability as DOD, where the orders are guaranteed, etc. This very well may be DHS’s attempt to develop an acquisition capability similar to DOD.

So I guess I would say this is hardly a “WTF” purchase, as I am sure there are many explanations as to why they made that type of an order.


Just my $0.02


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## JBS (Feb 15, 2013)

An old thread that needs reviving.

It turns out, according to an article circulated today by AP, the number of rounds being purchased by the DHS over the next few years was *not* _65 million_, or even _900 million_ rounds, but a whopping _*1.6 Billion*_ rounds.

The forms we discussed in this thread - and the math we worked- were only tranches of the overall purchases.

http://news.yahoo.com/homeland-security-cache-bullets-190840538.html




> WASHINGTON (AP) — Online rumors about a big government munitions purchase are true, sort of.
> The Homeland Security Department wants to buy more than* 1.6 billion* rounds of ammunition in the next four or five years. It says it needs them — roughly the equivalent of five bullets for every person in the United States — for law enforcement agents in training and on duty.
> 
> Published federal notices about the ammo buy have agitated conspiracy theorists since the fall. That's when conservative radio host Alex Jones spoke of an "arms race against the American people" and said the government was "gearing up for total collapse, they're gearing up for huge wars."
> ...


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 15, 2013)

Threads like this one make me want to comment and back it up with honest to God references unlike most posters who strap on their tin foil hats and spew ridiculous bullshit (not counting what comes from news articles).  However, I realize that no matter what I say, the tin foil hat crowd will just spew more ridiculous horseshit about revolution, the evil gov, etc.  Most of you who fall into this category constantly attempt to back your position with random, unsubstantiated bullshit, like the OP who said something about the initial article and the amount of ammo order exceeding the navy and mc wartime budget.  The same OP has also stated dumb, unsubstantiated shit in the past.  In other words I you are going to attempt to back your position up with "facts," reference your source.

Why don't you idiots inquire as to how many gun carrying agents are employed by DHS and do a little math?  That's right, that would take effort.

If any of you morons PM me, you're gonna get a vacation from the site.  Have a nice day.


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## JBS (Feb 15, 2013)

Ouch.



> The same OP has also stated dumb, unsubstantiated shit in the past


*Unsubstantiated**?* My posts frequently focus on what I view as the militarization of our society. You might think that view is "dumb", and I'm fine with that. I'm not trying to convert you or anyone to my point of view. There are many others who largely agree with that point of view, and cite such concrete things as

growing numbers of TSA checkpoints all over America (not just airports) now (http://www.cnn.com/2012/01/28/travel/tsa-vipr-passenger-train-searches/index.html),
warantless wiretaps (http://www.nytimes.com/2009/04/16/us/16nsa.html?_r=0), something that would have been unthinkable in the past
unlimited detention of American citizens (http://abcnews.go.com/blogs/politic...ama-signs-act-to-allow-detention-of-citizens/)
and other modern occurrences as evidence of that slow slide. You call that dumb. I call it something worth being concerned about as a citizen.
But * unsubstantiated? *I do not post unsubstantiated data as a general rule. If it ever happens, it's either because I failed to properly embed/post a link, or simply didn't have time at time of posting and intended to go back and post later. I usually take a great deal of effort documenting what I post, perhaps more rigorously than most.



> like the OP who said something about the initial article and the amount of ammo order exceeding the navy and mc wartime budget.


This is not what I said. I said, in the context of the OP- and in those first few posts- that nearly a billion rounds of small arms would have been more than double the entire small arms (5.56 and 9mm) consumption of the USMC and Dept. of Navy combined. And that's largely accurate. 900 million rounds of small arms (as quoted in the OP, based on a Market Watch article, which I also cited) exceeds (or would have exceeded) the annual consumption of the entire USMC and US Navy in small arms expenditure. Just to draw a simple comparison, the USMC has used an average of about 70 million rounds of* 5.56MM* in training annually- worldwide- for the period being discussed (circa 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005).

(One) source (of many) of this information is Jerry Mazza, Program Manager for Marine Corps Systems Command Publication "Ammunition Quarterly".

https://docs.google.com/viewer?a=v&q=cache:vgG1snX03JcJ:www.marcorsyscom.usmc.mil/am/ammunition/Corporate_Center/Ammunition_Quarterly/Vol10No3.pdf vol10no3.pdf, ammunition&hl=en&gl=us&pid=bl&srcid=ADGEESi_54lDi0HE-YUXKkl7L8KftWAvUElZYGCzWLu9Wmas3SQZeCa5d376mvQwhZ5sc5w4iN3DvhAROBXTtwAXyPc3OgVJ9T4hrebyMZrdwq_7rnWVCf7WSpr3qfZPgmWsl9hPYH4H&sig=AHIEtbT6QuGng-Mzoq1r2s8S_4zCGDKXWg

Saying my post is "dumb", or you don't agree, or whatever, that's one thing, but if you're going to call me out and say I have posted unsubstantiated things in the past, I don't think I have a record of that. I could have done a better job of sourcing the numbers in the OP, and I will come back later when I have time and post to the documents I sourced that from. I don't take responsibility at all for the original ATK Press Release, for which it was later withdrawn and re-released to show the contract was for an extended period.


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## JBS (Feb 15, 2013)

> Major General Jerry Curry, (Ret) offered up a good point when the 750 million order became public last fall saying that number of bullets was more than* 10 times* what U.S. troops used in a full year of Iraqi combat.


http://www.businessinsider.com/dhs-...-million-200-million-40-caliber-rounds-2013-1


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## Ranger Psych (Feb 15, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> Threads like this one make me want to comment and back it up with honest to God references unlike most posters who strap on their tin foil hats and spew ridiculous bullshit (not counting what comes from news articles). However, I realize that no matter what I say, the tin foil hat crowd will just spew more ridiculous horseshit about revolution, the evil gov, etc. Most of you who fall into this category constantly attempt to back your position with random, unsubstantiated bullshit, like the OP who said something about the initial article and the amount of ammo order exceeding the navy and mc wartime budget. The same OP has also stated dumb, unsubstantiated shit in the past. In other words I you are going to attempt to back your position up with "facts," reference your source.
> 
> Why don't you idiots inquire as to how many gun carrying agents are employed by DHS and do a little math? That's right, that would take effort.
> 
> If any of you morons PM me, you're gonna get a vacation from the site. Have a nice day.


 
Then comment and back it up. I trust what you've got to say more than I trust "Official disclosure" by any means.

I sorta chuckle about the "can shoot everyone in the country 4 times" round count.... since the round count I've shot through my .45 equates to eliminating either Carson City (the capital of Nevada) twice or half of the population of Reno, NV


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 15, 2013)

Most of the militarization of society you speak of started under President Bush, not Obama.  Next to no one cried foul then (hmmmm....patriot act, Iraq, etc).  Everyone cries about drone strikes, assassinating our citizens, detentions and whatnot.  No one would have said shit about offing John Lindh 11 years ago.  What about Adam whats his name?  Its kind of funny I guess.  Under Bush we wouldn't have a problem killing our enemies, citizen or not, but since we have this black, muslim, non-citizen as our twice elected by the masses president (note my sarcasm), the so called religious right doesnt have the stomach for it anymore.  

Since I work for this terrible regime that so many of you are apparently planning to overthrow (that will be a fun day or two at work) I can tell you that what the media tells you may give the appearance that my coworkers and I have donned our gestapo uniforms, let me be the first to say that things have became more restrictive, not less for LE.  As for DHS and their ammo order, I would venture to say for one year of ammo for my small agency to qual and barely train, we would probably need around 3 million or so rounds.  That is one small agency, not the many agencies which comprise DHS.  As for the USMC and their ammo usage, I feel sorry for them as the 75th probably shot more rounds in a year than the entire Corps.


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 15, 2013)

And I don't consider news articles worth any merit as a source.  But then again, most everything is opinion which is forced down our throats anyway. 

So, who wants to discuss how the USG is going to manipulate the citizens of this country after being trained by Yale psychologists?


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 15, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> And I don't consider news articles worth any merit as a source. But then again, most everything is opinion which is forced down our throats anyway.
> 
> *So, who wants to discuss how the USG is going to manipulate the citizens of this country after being trained by Yale psychologists?*


 
3/4 of the population of my school


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## JBS (Feb 15, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> Most of the militarization of society you speak of started under President Bush, not Obama.


Agreed. I have posted the same types of comments on this forum.  Of course, *predictably*, the powers claimed by Bush have been expanded upon by Obama. Actually your statement is highlighting exactly how powers like this lead to even more gross violations by subsequent Presidents. You're touching on the very thing I'm describing. How far will the next President move the ball? Whoever he or she is, s/he won't be starting from where Bush left us, but from wherever Obama is going to leave us.



> Next to no one cried foul then (hmmmm....patriot act, Iraq, etc). Everyone cries about drone strikes, assassinating our citizens, detentions and whatnot. No one would have said shit about offing John Lindh 11 years ago. What about Adam whats his name? Its kind of funny I guess.


Again, you must not have seen my posts, but you're mistaken about "no one" on this forum being critical about the small steps Bush took that laid the groundwork for undermining the Constitution. But again, whatever Bush did, Obama has done more profoundly. For instance (not that this belongs in this thread), take debt; Obama created more debt in 4 years than all of Bush's 8 years combined. That's after he promised to cut Bush's debt in half. In the State of the Union the other day, he promised everyone in the world free pre-school for all their kids, or something crazy like that. Or maybe it was just all 350 million Americans, something equally silly.



> Under Bush we wouldn't have a problem killing our enemies, citizen or not, but since we have this black, muslim, non-citizen as our twice elected by the masses president (note my sarcasm), the so called religious right doesnt have the stomach for it anymore.


 The matter of killing citizens without due process is something I find abhorrent. Race or religion has nothing to do with it.



> Since I work for this terrible regime that so many of you are apparently planning to overthrow (that will be a fun day or two at work) I can tell you that what the media tells you may give the appearance that my coworkers and I have donned our gestapo uniforms, let me be the first to say that things have became more restrictive, not less for LE.


I don't think you can find a post where I criticize LEOs, except individual cases of stupidity like the LAPD shooting up random trucks, exhibiting horrific fire discipline. Besides that, I don't think any of the 2nd Amendment crowd is known for criticizing LEOs, Federal law enforcement entities, or anyone who serves. The issue is the creation of these giant bureaucratic pseudo-policing organizations that are infiltrating every facet of our lives. And, at the top of the food chain, the guys (in government) who are implementing this are/were >>*on the payroll of the companies that build the machines and sell the equipment.<< * Where I come from, that's called a racket.


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## pardus (Feb 15, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> So, who wants to discuss how the USG is going to manipulate the citizens of this country after being trained by Yale psychologists?


 
*"Federal Agent reports that US Government in conjunction with Yale University plans massive brain washing programme"*

Lets see how long it takes Alex Jones to report this now...
* *


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## Chopstick (Feb 15, 2013)

Rusty is a mole. 
Besides everyone knows the government had to go grocery shopping to stock up after the "Dorner incident".  Free posted the video.


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 18, 2013)

Yeah chop, but no one will ever know as I'm the guy who forgets to shave and gets a haircut once or twice a year.  A far cry from the knuckleheads who maintain a high and tight and the tell tale goatee.

Let me back this thread up to my first inflammatory post where I threatened to start banning people for messaging me regarding my post.  The intent here was not to shut down conversation or to exercise some sort of authoritarian position, but to keep the postings in this thread.  It may have not come off that way and I acknowledge that the post in its entirety was a knee jerk response (albeit the way I feel) to JBS.  

JBS, as to your last post, the link you posted addresses shit hat has been going on forever.  Congressman pull that shit, Generals pull that shit, etc.  not justifying it, but I think many of us have seen or heard about that stuff going on for years.  Only recently have we seen GOs finally getting hammered for their indiscretions.  I just wish they would hammer our elected officials more often.

We have seen an erosion of rights under this admin and spending has gone through the roof, bu much of that was a continuation of Bush policies.  The expansion of fed employment really started under Bush with the SW border initiative.  All fed LE agencies that has a presence down there were expanded bigtime.  As for the LE bashing, bash away!  I'd dare say that there aren't many in LE who are as critical of their own profession as I am.  My point was to say that shit has become pretty restrictive for us.  

We've gone astray, bigtime, but I'll hit on your nanny state point too, only to say that its not the government's job to pay for head start, as you addressed.  What's next?  The man will be requiring home inspections?  Hell, they want to provide access to pre-school but not regulate food stamp EBT cards to cut down on fraud.  I could go on and on, but most of us could. 

My overall point is that while hundreds of millions for DHS may seem in excess, a quick search reveals that DHS employs 240000 folks.  While not all are LE, figure 1k rounds per year (not a lot), per gun carrying employee, per year and go from there.


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## Ranger Psych (Feb 18, 2013)

I guess a good question, does the USCG get their junk from under the DHS umbrella since they're under it.. or do they fall under DOD... or do they double dip that shit?


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 18, 2013)

Probably depends on the mission.  Without looking into it, I'd say they double dip.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 18, 2013)

It it we're possible/legal, I'd double-dip the hell out of it if I was Coast Guard.


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## JBS (Feb 18, 2013)

There's 200 K DHS Employees, per the website, as of 2011. http://www.dhs.gov/eeo-complaints-and-adjudication. That's *8,000* rounds for every employee, if you gave an allocation to every janitor, every clerk, every single employee.



> Number of DHS employees:* 199,492*


 
The orgs that roll up under DHS are as follows:

U.S. Customs Service
Immigration and Naturalization Service
Federal Protective Service
Transportation Security Administration
FLETC
Animal and Plant Health Inspection Service
Office for Domestic Preparedness (Formerly a FEMA Office)
Federal Emergency Management Agency
Strategic National Stockpile
National Disaster Medical System
Nuclear Incident Response Team
Domestic Emergency Support Teams
National Domestic Preparedness Office
CBRN Countermeasures Programs
Environmental Measurements Laboratory
National Biological Warfare
Defense Analysis Center
Plum Island Animal Disease Center
Federal Computer Incident Response Cente
National Communications System
National Infrastructure Protection Center
Energy Security and Assurance Program
U.S. Coast Guard
USSS
The* 1.6 Billion* order was covered on CNN, FOX, ABC and other major news outlet (_not Alex Jone_s).

*FOX News* on the "Right"
*Huffington Post* on the "Left"
*CNN*
*Associated Press*
Divide this up over 4 years, here's what you get:

1.6 Billion rounds ÷ 4 years = 400 million rounds per year (still nearly *6 times* the amount of all combined forces ammunition expenditure in Iraq, citation above, and again here: http://www.businessinsider.com/dhs-...-million-200-million-40-caliber-rounds-2013-1). 

Since we know that FLETC uses 20 million rounds per year by themselves (as they posted on their website as well as the DHS website which states it's only 15 million rounds per year) , we can use an adjusted number of 380 million rounds left over, after FLETC uses their allocation, to be distributed among all the other employees of all the other agencies. That's 380 million rounds per year distributed to agencies, 90% of which have extremely limited force projection capabilities.   Except for the Coast Guard, the other organizations have not traditionally been known for excessive consumption of ammunition. These kinds of ammo purchases by the DHS are not usual, not common, haven't been done before. It's totally understandable why people would look at these kinds of ammunition acquisitions with major "WTF" in their mind, especially when coupled with the subsequent attempted "black out"/ redaction: http://www.examiner.com/article/dhs-ammo-specifics-now-redacted-as-n-west-activists-react


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## RustyShackleford (Feb 18, 2013)

After reading, re-reading, and reading the original article once again, Im having trouble understanding why DHS would be ordering ammo for every agency under there umbrella.  My agency does not purchase ammo for us.  It is purchased by the district.  Maybe DHS does things differently and if I get the chance I'll ask tomorrow.

On the other hand, maybe they foresaw the run on ammo and are doing nothing more than what all the idiots who have been mobbing local and Internet gun/ammo suppliers.  Maybe it's a big conspiracy against the unassuming citizens of this fine country!  Run for the hills...


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## ducboy (Feb 18, 2013)

I'll find more info, but I'm fairly sure our ammo from small arms up to the deck guns comes from the Navy. I know we had a hell of a time just trying to get enough for proficiency, much less extras. We had a better chance of ordering a me helicopter than getting a case of AA11...


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## ducboy (Feb 18, 2013)

I have no clue where the "me" came from, my phone hates me.


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## Dame (Feb 19, 2013)

:wall: Oh my gosh. I can't believe I didn't see this before. It's so obvious.

They need the ammo to replenish the stuff they sold to the Mexican drug lords! Those guys run through ammo like crazy.

And then there's this: http://www.independentsentinel.com/2013/02/mexico-wants-us-to-register-guns-give-them-the-registry/


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## TLDR20 (Feb 19, 2013)

Dame said:


> :wall: Oh my gosh. I can't believe I didn't see this before. It's so obvious.
> 
> They need the ammo to replenish the stuff they sold to the Mexican drug lords! Those guys run through ammo like crazy.
> 
> And then there's this: http://www.independentsentinel.com/2013/02/mexico-wants-us-to-register-guns-give-them-the-registry/



Was this satire or are you using that as a real source?


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## Dame (Feb 19, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> Was this satire or are you using that as a real source?


LOL. No. That was me and my brain damaged sense of humor.


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## dknob (Mar 12, 2013)

Okay I am sick and fn tired of seeing people with tin foil hats talk about this completely irrelevant and viral news piece that floats around EVERYWHERE on the internet.

Why can't people use common sense and do a little bit of research as to why this purchase happened?!! There is just no explanation.

I went online and started looking at all the different orgs within DHS that could possible use ammunition.

1.) Fucking FLETC!!! The national training center for federal agents from 90 different agencies attend this. ICE, CBP, NCIS, the list goes on and on.. These federal agents do tons of shooting at this place year round.

That alone should have ended this stupid viral story.

2.) Customs and Border Protection (CBP)  - our well armed border patrol agents need ammunition as do CBPs tactical team - BORTAC (How much shooting/training do you think they do on a yearly basis??!)

3.) The Secret Service - the many armed Special Agents, the many Secret Service tactical team members who blow through ammunition on a daily basis.

4.) The Goddamn Coast Guard!!! They probably account for the majority of the $1.6 billion dollar purchase.

America you have lost all common sense.


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## 0699 (Mar 12, 2013)

They should use some of the ammo budget to buy more MRAPs and black helicopters...


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## dknob (Mar 12, 2013)

MRAPs on the border for BORTAC makes sense to me


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## dknob (Mar 12, 2013)

As for the "2,700" MRAPs... http://www.naval-technology.com/news/newsnavistar-to-upgrade-usmc-maxxpro-mrap-vehicle-fleet

Matching number? coincidence?


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## JBS (Mar 12, 2013)

Already broke all of this down in great detail here: https://shadowspear.com/vb/threads/another-run-on-ammo-dhss-new-900-million-round-purchase.15104/

This is definitely an extraordinary amount of ammo being purchased. There's also definitely the appearance of a major buildup of other things, including thousands of new rifles, thousands of bullet resistant modular police checkpoint buildings, and the already mentioned retrofitting of 2700 MRAPs.

FLETC's own website claims they use *20 million* rounds per year. That's a FAR cry from accounting for anything but the tiniest sliver of that total ammo purchase. Before you decide to rush headlong in trusting and embracing this totally broken, corrupt government, you might want to actually look at the facts, and ignore the nutter static that makes them slightly harder to pick out.

The* best possible* explanation is that this is just a massive militarization of the DHS. But it's definitely not "routine".


Also, the notion that "well, of course it's alot of ammo because there are a lot of people using it!" doesn't cut it. Compare DHS ammo consumption with the US military (a comparable size in terms of personnel), and then you start to get the real picture. There are 200K employees in the DHS. There are about that many Marines in the entire US Marine Corps. The DHS is purchasing an amount of ammo _equivalent to or greater than_ the total US military expenditure of small arms to sustain the Iraq war for a period of about 25 years.


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## dknob (Mar 12, 2013)

JBS said:


> Already broke all of this down in great detail here: https://shadowspear.com/vb/threads/another-run-on-ammo-dhss-new-900-million-round-purchase.15104/
> 
> This is definitely an extraordinary amount of ammo being purchased. There's also definitely the appearance of a major buildup of other things, including thousands of new rifles, thousands of bullet resistant modular police checkpoint buildings, and the already mentioned retrofitting of 2700 MRAPs.
> 
> ...


 
Who ever said this purchase was to sustain the DHS for only one year?!?


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## JBS (Mar 12, 2013)

The DHS contract is for 4 years.


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## dknob (Mar 12, 2013)

How much is going to the coast guard? Everybody is ignoring the one organization that was once part of the Department of DEFENSE.


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## JBS (Mar 12, 2013)

I don't disagree with your point. It's extremely likely that a significant portion is going to the Coast Guard.

It's the sheer raw numbers that boggle the mind. Let's say HALF the ammo went to the Coast Guard. So, the Coast Guard is going to use 800 million rounds, when we - the Army and the Marine Corps- use 70 million to 100 million in a year in wartime?  The Coast Guard?

Edited to add: then you have to figure the other 800 million rounds being used by everyone else in the DHS. FLETC accounts for 20 million a year, so that's 780 million more to divide between the Park Services, Border Patrol, ICE, etc. These are tiny orgs by comparison.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 12, 2013)

Has DHS bought Hellfires yet?


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## JBS (Mar 12, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> Has DHS bought Hellfires yet?


Is it your position that 1.6 billion rounds of ammo is just a routine purchase?


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## TLDR20 (Mar 12, 2013)

JBS said:


> Is it your position that 1.6 billion rounds of ammo is just a routine purchase?



Did I say that? I don't know what normal is, I'm not a logistician, but then again neither are you.


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## Chopstick (Mar 12, 2013)

Maybe if DHS is so flush with ammo they can spare some for the USMC, since the Commandant is asking Marines to "save every round, every gallon of gas". 7:28 on the video. What are they going to train with?


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## JBS (Mar 12, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> Did I say that? I don't know what normal is, I'm not a logistician, but then again neither are you.


Well, your dismissive, persistently sarcastic tone projects that your point of view is that this purchase is not noteworthy. You're basically saying anyone who questions this matter should have their head examined.

Do we need to be logisticians to demand accountability from our government now?

In any case, there are plenty of smart people scratching their heads over this. We can thank Alex Jones for clouding the very real issue.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/ralphbe...ecurity-its-time-for-a-national-conversation/


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## Scotth (Mar 12, 2013)

JBS said:


> Is it your position that 1.6 billion rounds of ammo is just a routine purchase?


 
Until someone can provide hard date and not just assumptions that it is abnormal level how can you come to any other conclusion? There is a lot of entities under the DHS umbrella and doing one large purchase probably gives them a better discount instead of having hundreds of smaller yearly contracts.


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## JBS (Mar 12, 2013)

Scotth said:


> Until someone can provide hard date that it is abnormal level how can you come to any other conclusion? There is a lot of entities under the DHS umbrella and doing one large purchase probably gives them a better discount instead of having hundreds of smaller yearly contracts.


That's the very first thing I thought, too.

Then I compared the amount of the purchase to how much the entire US military uses. It dwarfs the amount.

Also, the business / investment community did a major WTF, when ATK published they'd gotten such a huge contract. These kinds of moves attract attention, and rightly so.


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## AWP (Mar 12, 2013)

I've merged the threads.

Regardless of one's position on a topic if ya'll could two things I'd appreciate it:
1) These subjects tend to dance around personal attacks or at a minimum start down that path before cooler heads prevail. Let's not start down that path, okay?
2) We have a Search function for a reason.

Carry on.


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## Scotth (Mar 12, 2013)

JBS said:


> That's the very first thing I thought, too.
> 
> Then I compared the amount of the purchase to how much the entire US military uses. It dwarfs the amount.
> 
> Also, the business / investment community did a major WTF, when ATK published they'd gotten such a huge contract. These kinds of moves attract attention, and rightly so.


 

A Forbes article does equal the investment community and if it did the stock market is up so that must mean they like it.



> A government report says that US forces are now using 1.8 billion rounds of small-arms ammunition a year. The total has more than doubled in five years, largely as a result of the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, as well as changes in military doctrine.


http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...e-250000-for-every-rebel-killed-28580666.html
Article written Jan 11, 2011

DHS isn't buying more ammunition then the military. These DHS purchases could be all bad but nobody has proved a dam thing except that DHS is buying ammunition. Get some historical information on DHS ammo purchases and then I will take this issue seriously.


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## JBS (Mar 12, 2013)

Scotth said:


> A Forbes article does equal the investment community and if it did the stock market is up so that must mean they like it.
> 
> 
> http://www.belfasttelegraph.co.uk/n...e-250000-for-every-rebel-killed-28580666.html
> ...


First, that article you linked to is good, so thanks. For clarity, I mean the DHS purchase was more than the military was using* in Iraq*- which it was. Ammo consumption in Iraq averaged about 70 million rounds per year. I would like to see the government report cited in the article, but it is "unspecified".

And I wasn't citing the Forbes article as indicative of the global investment community, only that it was noted by investors- which it was- in the Defense community, and organizations that cater to Defense-oriented contracts.

I guess it would help matters a great deal if people could trust the government.  

*CBS News:  3 in 10 Americans trust the US Government*

http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/03/11/pew-for-every-10-americans-only-3-trust-the-government/


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## TLDR20 (Mar 12, 2013)

So roughly  10 percent of our force in Iraq alone was using 70 million rounds. So the other 90 percent t adds up to close to 700-800 million rounds. That's prolly still not it. The quote about usage in Iraq is misleading at best. It implies a lot more than it really states. 

Furthermore my tone is sarcastic, it is meant to be.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 12, 2013)

JBS said:


> I guess it would help matters a great deal if people could trust the government.
> 
> *CBS News: 3 in 10 Americans trust the US Government*
> 
> http://washington.cbslocal.com/2013/03/11/pew-for-every-10-americans-only-3-trust-the-government/


 
According to the article, under Clinton, 6 in 10 Americans trusted the government, and as many Americans trust the government now as they did under GW Bush. Then again, I'm paraphrasing, just like the title of the article.

I'll second what cback said.


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## Scotth (Mar 12, 2013)

Here is the historical data I was talking about.

http://www.whiteoutpress.com/articles/q32012/history-of-dhs-ammunition-purchases517/

Reviewing the document, the Bush Administration through the DHS purchased 774.3 million rounds between '04-'08 and the Obama administration bought just over a billion round at 1,105.5.

The difference was one big ICE purchase. If you look at the history of the purchases there isn't a lot of difference with both administrations having similar sizes and frequency of purchases.


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## JBS (Mar 12, 2013)

So where is the "conspiracy" part you're referring to, and where is the "theory" part of all this?  These ammo purchases are FACTS, not theory.

If the US government is preparing for something- perhaps civil unrest due to a major shift in the US financial situation, perhaps something else- I want to know about it.   But, there's no theory at play, at least not that I know of.  You can glean a lot of information by putting your ear on the railroad tracks, to see what's coming way before it arrives.  Paying attention to US government stockpiling of massive quantities of ammunition is kind of like putting your ear to the tracks.   The question is "what's coming?"  Maybe nothing.  Probably nothing.

But as for the trust issue, it also didn't help  when our open and transparent elected officials and public servants decided to begin REDACTING all the data having to do with these purchases.

>>DHS Ammo Purchase Specifics Now Redacted<<<



Scotth said:


> Here is the historical data I was talking about.
> 
> http://www.whiteoutpress.com/articles/q32012/history-of-dhs-ammunition-purchases517/
> 
> ...


I didn't see any totals there.  Did you add all those purchases up yourself, or are there totals somewhere in that site?


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## AWP (Mar 12, 2013)

JBS said:


> I didn't see any totals there. Did you add all those purchases up yourself, or are there totals somewhere in that site?


 
His numbers wash. I dumped them into Excel and let it do the math for me.

Under Bush:
FLETC: 88,936,000
ICE: 685,808,600
Total: 774,744,600 rounds

Under Obama:
FLETC: 70,503,290
ICE: 1,034,987,400
Total: 1,105,490,690 rounds

Difference:
Obama +330,746,090 total rounds

(Any mistakes are typos going from one medium to another and all numbers are based on the link Scott provided)


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## Scotth (Mar 12, 2013)

JBS said:


> I didn't see any totals there. Did you add all those purchases up yourself, or are there totals somewhere in that site?


 
I added them up.



Freefalling said:


> His numbers wash. I dumped them into Excel and let it do the math for me.
> 
> Under Bush:
> FLETC: 88,936,000
> ...


 
Show off.

(you might argue I was to stupid to think of that but why go there)


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## Marine0311 (Mar 12, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> I've merged the threads.
> 
> Regardless of one's position on a topic if ya'll could two things I'd appreciate it:
> 1) These subjects tend to dance around personal attacks or at a minimum start down that path before cooler heads prevail. Let's not start down that path, okay?
> ...


 
x2.

We also need to stay away from comments that could be viewed as extreme right wing or of that nature. Opinions are one thing and so are constructive arguments. The rest, in short we of this community are better than that.


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## Polar Bear (Mar 12, 2013)

I have edited some posts, made others disappear. Everyone can count on the conspiracy threads disappearing too. The staff and I have not kept up with our weekly pruning sessions. So if your birthday thread or I bought a new car or Obama is making it mandatory to be implanted with chips in 2015 gets deleted don't get butt hurt. Please send all hate mail to Mara and all nice things to FF.


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## AWP (Mar 12, 2013)

Because I was bored:

Using Scott's link cited earlier, round purchases per year and # of purchases in parentheses:
2004: 1,170,000 (2)
2005: 3,222,000 (5)
2006: 127,927,600 (11)
2007: 33,136,000 (7)
2008: 609,289,000 (11)

2009: 18,787,720 (9)
2010: 375,722,520 (5) One was for 375,000,000
2011: 475,774,000 (3) One was for 450,000,000
2012: 235,206,450 (8) One was for 165,000,000

ICE had the single largest purchase every year except 2005.

Rounds purchased for the last 4 years of Bush43: 773,574,600
Rounds purchased for the first 4 years of Obama: 1,105,490,690


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## Chopstick (Mar 12, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> Because I was bored:
> 
> Using Scott's link cited earlier, round purchases per year and # of purchases in parentheses:
> 2004: 1,170,000 (2)
> ...


If you have time can you break those down into specific calibers purchased?


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## AWP (Mar 12, 2013)

One final, interesting tidbit, 12/19/08, 200 million rounds were ordered. Right before Christmas, post-election, but still on Bush's watch. Discard those 200 million rounds for a moment.

If you toss those out, your last year of purchases in the Bush administration is a hair over 409 million rounds. 2009 we'll toss out due to the ridiculously low count (compared to the next few years) and suddenly Bush's numbers are in line with Obamas.

My question is: short of some awesome Bilderburg/ Illuminati theory, what happened STARTING in 2008 that required all of this ammo? I'm no fan of the current administration, but I'd have to look at 2008 as the focal point here. By August 08, Bush43's folks had purchased 409 million rounds which far, FAR exceeds the other purchases during his tenure. I think when you start breaking down the numbers, this isn't about Obama, but something drastically changed in 2008, months BEFORE the election.

Just something to chew on...


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## pardus (Mar 12, 2013)

I would be kind of curious to see the ammo expenditure per year/agency (Freefalling get on that would you, there's a good chap).

We must remember too that a lot of federal agencies were formed/expanded during Bush's tenure so that alone would require a large increase in ammo usage. 

The last page or two have really taken the fire out of this conspiracy. I blame RustyShackleford, then again he is a fed...


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## AWP (Mar 12, 2013)

pardus said:


> I would be kind of curious to see the ammo expenditure per year/agency (Freefalling get on that would you, there's a good chap).


 
You're not even remotely patrician enough to pull that off. A for initiative, F for effort.


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## Scotth (Mar 13, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> One final, interesting tidbit, 12/19/08, 200 million rounds were ordered. Right before Christmas, post-election, but still on Bush's watch. Discard those 200 million rounds for a moment.
> 
> If you toss those out, your last year of purchases in the Bush administration is a hair over 409 million rounds. 2009 we'll toss out due to the ridiculously low count (compared to the next few years) and suddenly Bush's numbers are in line with Obamas.
> 
> ...


 
You could move that 200 million round purchased into either the '08 or '09 numbers really. It was a calender year '08 purchase but the purchase was made from FY '09 dollars. A budget that was made by Bush so it basically washes either way.

Like you I also saw the huge increases in ammo usage starting back in '06 when you go from 3 million to 127 million to today's numbers of around a 350-400 million yearly average.

At the end, I know DHS has to go to their appropriation subcommittee's in the House and Senate and explain there budget request line by line. Ammo purchases are another budget line item so there must be a reason why the funding has increased so substantially because I doubt those kinds of increases went unnoticed in congress.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 13, 2013)

Hey Free, feel like finding out how many new federal law enforcement agents were hired between 2007 and now in support of the SW border initiative?  I bet that will really throw off the overall numbers.  But then again, DHS is getting ready for "something" and for some reason, people without clearances or a specific need to know think they deserve to know.  Maybe I will go consult a left wing or right wing website and try to find out.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 13, 2013)

LOL.

Maybe they're getting ready for the fast and furious guns to come north in full force versus just killing a couple BP officers.


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## AWP (Mar 13, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> Hey Free, feel like finding out


 
No. LOL

I just pointed out the numbers because people spin up over what Obama's purchasing when the trend started under Bush (the 2008 purchases were largely made under FY08's budget, the final 200 mill under FY09), so they can start THEIR OWN RESEARCH at that point in history.

Personally, I have enough to lose sleep over...I got 99 problems and DHS ain't one.


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## JBS (Mar 13, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> Hey Free, feel like finding out how many new federal law enforcement agents were hired between 2007 and now in support of the SW border initiative? I bet that will really throw off the overall numbers. But then again, DHS is getting ready for "something" and for some reason, people without clearances or a specific need to know think they deserve to know. Maybe I will go consult a left wing or right wing website and try to find out.


 
_*sigh*_

Remember weeks ago when the very number - 1.6 billion- was a "conspiracy theory"?

I'm no stranger to understanding that "need to know" is not the same thing as "want to know". I'm not sure how Department of Homeland Security ammo purchases are secret squirrel. Then again, everything is class these days, so if you want to know how many paperclips our massive new internal security apparatus uses, that's probably classified too.  >>"92 Million Documents Classified in 2011 Alone"<<

The* entire premise of this thread* is predicated on *numerous* credible sources repeatedly being quoted in mainstream news (CNN, AP, CBS, NBC) on the consumption of ammo by the US military. Many of those quotes go back to 2005. I myself have posted direct links (in this thread and others) to Army Generals, Marine Officers, and logistics specialists in charge of industry-specific publications focused on ammunition sales and production who each stated we used about 70 million rounds per year in Iraq. The annual consumption of ammo in Iraq and Afghanistan has been *repeatedly* quoted as being between 70 million and 120 million rounds per year, depending on the year, various operations, and the sources involved. In looking at the years specified, I can tell you that I researched the years 2004, 2005 and 2006 as the height of many large scale operations abroad. I can also tell you I Googled the hell out of this topic on about a half dozen occasions and never once came up with the concrete numbers Scott came up with in such a concise and readable format. Scotth 's post is the very first of its kind I've seen/found _*anywhere*_ across dozens of news sites, blogs, "waste watchdog sites" and the like. Based on Scotth's numbers - and assuming that one unspecified "government report" is accurate, then I now have to throw out perhaps a half dozen different credible sources as being wrong on US ammo consumption.

If Scotth 's numbers are accurate, then the buildup and militarization of the DHS suddenly looks far less ominous- but still not "routine". During the past 12 years, if one excludes "one off" purchases (as Freefalling suggested) , the domestic consumption of ammo has gone up (depending on where you start counting) from the* tens* of millions per year to _well north of *400 million*_ rounds* per year*, and still climbing. The last Obama numbers are put at 1.1 Billion and the current order for the next few years again bumps that up to another 50% increase to 1.6 Billion. But moving on. So, we're still going from a few tens of million to *6 to 10 times that* amount in a span of 8 or 10 years, no matter which way you look at it.

Again, assuming that Scotth's link to the one unspecified "government report" is accurate, and if we throw out all the other highly placed US military and contractor quotes of consumption, we still have a massive explosion in ammo stockpiles. The only thing that has changed (if that one unspecified report is accurate) is now it looks less like a "doomsday" scenario and more like typical, ordinary governmental / bureaucratic gigantism.   As with all other government entities, the push is on to grow ever larger, even as we go bankrupt.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 13, 2013)

JBS said:


> _*sigh*_
> 
> Remember weeks ago when the very number - 1.6 billion- was a "conspiracy theory"?


 
Sigh my ass. Your the one with the theories, not me. My counter to your nonsense from a couple weeks ago was not that the numbers ordered were a conspiracy. Your views are skewed at best.

Where is Snake Plissken when we need him. Someone please pull the plug and put the nut jobs, conspiracy theorists, perverts, criminals, etc. out of a platform.


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## Scotth (Mar 13, 2013)

JBS what you have to remember first is ammo purchased is a budgetary line item like everything and the increases were justified to many people in both the House and Senate. The money to make all these purchases can't just be pulled from different line items without approval from Congress and that lack a flexibility is what makes the across the board sequestration cuts such a problem.

A little more searching you can find that in 2006 we had 12,349 Border Patrol Agent and expanded that number to 18,319 by 2008 and further expanded that number to 21,370 by 2012. When you think about the increase numbers in just the Border Patrol those ammo purchase numbers might be justified especially if you look for changes to training in regards to shooting. How are agents armed these days versus 2004? For example are more M-4 carried today by border agents along with a side arm? That would require more range time staying qualified on multiple weapons and it would also demand a higher patrol load requirements.

The attached *.pdf has the '06 and '08 BP numbers and the following link it what I used for '12 numbers:
http://thomas.loc.gov/cgi-bin/cpquery/?&sid=cp112BIGAR&r_n=hr091.112&dbname=cp112&&sel=TOC_112368&

This is just one example of then many different departments that fall under the DHS umbrella.


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## AWP (Mar 13, 2013)

In 2005, pre-Iraq surge and all that, the DoD used 1.3 billion rounds of 5.56 and 81 million rounds of 9mm. Iraq, train-ups, Basic, annual qualifications, etc...1.3 billion rounds of 5.56 alone.

http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05687.pdf


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## JBS (Mar 13, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> Sigh my ass. Your the one with the theories, not me. My counter to your nonsense from a couple weeks ago was not that the numbers ordered were a conspiracy. Your views are skewed at best.


I never had any working theories on this, only questions. You'd be hard pressed to demonstrate otherwise. In the very first post of this thread, the only thing I did speculate on was that the orders were likely to drive the availability in the private sector down. That's a reasonable degree of speculation. Other concerns mentioned later in the thread- like financial instability- are not new concepts. There are thousands of books and perhaps tens of thousands of articles on this concern. $16 trillion in debt makes thoughts like large scale financial instability seem within the realm of possible.

I am aware that wherever this viral story has been re-printed across the web, the story has been flooded with all kinds of speculation and conspiracy-like responses from people who comment. But that's this Administration's fault and the one before it for not fostering trust among the American people, not necessarily "conspiracy theorists". In an earlier post in this thread, I linked to the latest poll that shows that 3 in 10 Americans trust this government. That's not my fault. Now, if you took my posts the wrong way, and your mind immediately interpreted what I said to mean all kinds of conspiracy theory scenarios, then you can surely understand why those without your background (i.e., the general public) would do the same thing and far worse. This story isn't a story from some hillbilly's blog. The issue of massive ammo acquisitions has been carried on FOX, CNN, CBS, and in publications like Forbes and the like. Asking questions about what is driving these huge ammo purchases - these are also legit questions.

If we had on page 1 of this thread what we have on page 5 and 6- which is links to real numbers, and a serious attempt at trying to understand this issue, this would have been a 1 or 2 page thread.

The numbers I used regarding ammo consumption are all quotes from Generals and publications from the time period specified. This is why I linked to them. If they're inaccurate, then so be it. The PREMISE of this thread was inaccurate _(i.e. the global amount of ammo being 730 million rounds per year+, vs. the earlier stated 400 million rounds per year)_, but the questions raised as a result are/were not "conspiracy theories".  And here's one of those earlier quotes:


> Major General Jerry Curry, (Ret) offered up a good point when the 750 million order became public last fall saying that number of bullets was more than* 10 times* what U.S. troops used in a full year of Iraqi combat.
> 
> http://www.businessinsider.com/dhs-...-million-200-million-40-caliber-rounds-2013-1


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## TLDR20 (Mar 13, 2013)

This number of the rounds used in Iraq and Afghanistan is misleading at best. Less than 10 percent of our military is deployed, and believe it or not we fire way way way more rounds in training CONUS than we do in either theater. Furthermore that is 1 year. The actual figure for 2005 was in excess of 1.7 billion rounds used by the Army in 2005 alone. A far cry from the 70 million number that keeps getting thrown around. Also the DHS purchase supports four years, the Armys 1 billion plus per year far exceeds anything close to what had been purchased. 

Here is the link the tables on usage are about half way down. 

http://www.almc.army.mil/alog/issues/SepOct10/spectrum_smallarms_ammo.html


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## JBS (Mar 13, 2013)

Has anyone come across any website out there that discusses this issue intelligently, with real numbers like the ones being thrown out on page 5 & 6 of this thread? I have not. And I've Googled this topic way too much now. As far as I know, SS is the only site to have the real scoop on this. It's still alot of ammo, it's still more than any other year, and it's still an issue that bears watching, but when put in the proper perspective it takes on a completely different character.

A few weeks ago I checked the Snopes website, among others, and there was nothing anywhere even close to dissecting this the way the entries here on the last two pages have done. This story is still being reprinted all over the web, and I've heard short clips from major radio commentators addressing the issue as well.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 13, 2013)

I don't know about that, I fired a lot more 5.56 in 04-05 than I had ever fired in any training.


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## JBS (Mar 13, 2013)

Well, it looks like having discussions about demanding accountability from the government about ammo acquisitions can possibly make you an extremist/terrorist:

http://action.democraticgovernors.org/page/s/tell-palin-to-apologize-fb


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## NBC-Guy (Mar 13, 2013)

She's such a Mavrick.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 13, 2013)

While she's at it, she could accuse Americans of stockpiling arms and ammunition.  The bottom line is that without digging up actual numbers, I pretty much pointed out what cback, free, and scott said.  Granted, some of that was based on my limited knowledge of the expansion of the federal government over the last decade as well as ammo expenditures (not the ones cited by some dumb ass general).  In the same turn, without citing anything, my nonsense is irrelevant.

I've pretty much had it with politics, politicians, and anyone who chooses to involve themselves with the two.  What ever happened to the days when people like us viewed ourselves as enforcers of policy rather than political mouthpieces?  One thing I have realized over the last few years is the older people get, the more politicized people get.  That sort of answered the previous sentence/question, but it makes one wonder why.  Perhaps it is education or availability of information provided by media outlets with an agenda, thus allowing people to read information that feeds their agenda.  Maybe it is the individual need to feel relevant.  Maybe it is a dip in testosterone or estrogen.  Ultimately, who gives a fuck.  (That was more of a statement than a question).


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## TLDR20 (Mar 13, 2013)

JAB said:


> I don't know about that, I fired a lot more 5.56 in 04-05 than I had ever fired in any training.



I wasn't referencing specific individuals. I was saying that the military fires way more rounds in training than in combat.


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## Scotth (Mar 13, 2013)

JBS said:


> Has anyone come across any website out there that discusses this issue intelligently, with real numbers like the ones being thrown out on page 5 & 6 of this thread? I have not. And I've Googled this topic way too much now. As far as I know, SS is the only site to have the real scoop on this. It's still alot of ammo, it's still more than any other year, and it's still an issue that bears watching, but when put in the proper perspective it takes on a completely different character.
> 
> A few weeks ago I checked the Snopes website, among others, and there was nothing anywhere even close to dissecting this the way the entries here on the last two pages have done. This story is still being reprinted all over the web, and I've heard short clips from major radio commentators addressing the issue as well.


 
I have got my Google-fu on a couple times for this subject and I couldn't agree more.  There is so much regurgitation of the same fact less statements with out an ounce of critical assessment for what was said it is staggering.  It is so vast it can make it hard to find out real information.


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## RackMaster (Mar 13, 2013)

Speaking of stockpiles, I was thinking of how much of an annual purchase would be to replenish outdated stockpiles.  We all know that more is purchased than is used, it's the standard practice for all Government purchasing and budget "management".  If you don't spend, you lose it and with the last decades push for security; I'm sure that's what the deal was.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 13, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> While she's at it, she could accuse Americans of stockpiling arms and ammunition. The bottom line is that without digging up actual numbers, I pretty much pointed out what cback, free, and scott said. Granted, some of that was based on my limited knowledge of the expansion of the federal government over the last decade as well as ammo expenditures (not the ones cited by some dumb ass general). In the same turn, without citing anything, my nonsense is irrelevant.
> 
> I've pretty much had it with politics, politicians, and anyone who chooses to involve themselves with the two. What ever happened to the days when people like us viewed ourselves as enforcers of policy rather than political mouthpieces? One thing I have realized over the last few years is the older people get, the more politicized people get. That sort of answered the previous sentence/question, but it makes one wonder why. Perhaps it is education or availability of information provided by media outlets with an agenda, thus allowing people to read information that feeds their agenda. Maybe it is the individual need to feel relevant. Maybe it is a dip in testosterone or estrogen. Ultimately, who gives a fuck. (That was more of a statement than a question).


 
My take/retort:

I am now in a position as a civilian to not enforce policy but influence it. I don't buy into everything the media says, which is why I am following this among other things. If there's a valid reason, given DHS/etc generally is pretty transparent with their stupidity, it'd be in the clear. It doesn't quite add up, which is why I'm more inclined to go "Ok, why?"

I no longer must do or die, because I now have latitude to question WHY.


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## pardus (Mar 14, 2013)

OK, so here's the deal...

If you post something on Shadowspear if had better be a *FACT* or stated clearly as an opinion.

If you post something that you think is correct and imply is correct and state is proof without fact/evidence backing it up then you are going to get the scrutiny and the brunt of my displeasure, not to mention the other mods/admins.

I'm sick to death of the bullshit posted here and it will NOT be tolerated!


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 14, 2013)

Ranger Psych said:


> My take/retort:
> 
> I am now in a position as a civilian to not enforce policy but influence it. I don't buy into everything the media says, which is why I am following this among other things. If there's a valid reason, given DHS/etc generally is pretty transparent with their stupidity, it'd be in the clear. It doesn't quite add up, which is why I'm more inclined to go "Ok, why?"
> 
> I no longer must do or die, because I now have latitude to question WHY.


 
But at what level are you influencing policy?  By reading/writing about it on a message board or by actually getting involved?  I am not sharp shooting you but rather asking a serious question.  As all of us have seen over the years, it is real easy to sit on the couch or in front of the computer and read crap that supports our own beliefs and agenda and then proceed to bitch and complain about it, all the while using the excuse that we somehow influence our government (city, county, state, fed, etc.) by voting, which while is true in part, it is only one very small way of being involved. 

Just like bitching about how things are done at work, anyone's work.  We all know tons of people who bitch about their job, but when promotion opportunities present themselves, the majority of the bitchers say fuck that!  Rather than put themselves in a position to influence change, they sit in that same old job, bitching.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 14, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> But at what level are you influencing policy? By reading/writing about it on a message board or by actually getting involved? I am not sharp shooting you but rather asking a serious question. As all of us have seen over the years, it is real easy to sit on the couch or in front of the computer and read crap that supports our own beliefs and agenda and then proceed to bitch and complain about it, all the while using the excuse that we somehow influence our government (city, county, state, fed, etc.) by voting, which while is true in part, it is only one very small way of being involved.
> 
> Just like bitching about how things are done at work, anyone's work. We all know tons of people who bitch about their job, but when promotion opportunities present themselves, the majority of the bitchers say fuck that! Rather than put themselves in a position to influence change, they sit in that same old job, bitching.


 
short list?

widespread internet Fact distribution, political office-holders email/snail mail/petitions, rally's I can afford to drive to, and other things up to and including going in person to Reid's office in-state every day until I actually talk to him. I have the time to be a pain in the ass for politicians until they actually answer with a real uncanned answer if the cause "is just".  I may not get the answer we like though, but that's life.

If you want us to just stop talking about this, it's fine. I like gag orders.  Putting things out in the open so that facts can be found or unburied and bullshit can be called on its namesake is how a discussion and information is found.  There's enough disinformation within the major news media today that there's no possible way that you can honestly enforce that.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 14, 2013)

Right on. I have no issue calling things like you see them. Speaking for myself, I am tired of the whole sky is falling mentality. Not just here, but on the news and with people at work who perpetuate the BS put forth by the media and their political view of choice.

Disinformation is the keyword and the media (left and right slanted media) are guilty of it, as are people who further what they read without either putting in some extra research or waiting for the true facts to come out.

Wait until the whole story comes out about the father of that baby (who was shot five times and died) on the southside of Chicago.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 14, 2013)

That's exactly why I would like to continue the discussion on this and other topics. People like yourself, and others, are in positions to be able to interject what you see on your end compared to what's coming out in "THE MEDIA" and while I don't think there's a huge sky is falling mentality on my part, understanding is key now.  I mean, I can get behind buying the ammo when it makes sense, but there's all sorts of different angles which may/may not be true.

Basically getting all sides to bring reality to the table to compare it to the talking heads already going RA RA RA at said table.


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## JBS (Mar 18, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> While she's at it, she could accuse Americans of stockpiling arms and ammunition.


 
If she did claim it, she'd be correct. Americans have stockpiled and purchased weapons and ammo at what some would call an alarming rate, according to every stat I've come across on the topic. I've heard the same joke from gun dealers and pawn brokers over and over again, "Obama is the best gun salesman the firearms industry has ever had".   But I would rather live in a situation where the government fears the people, rather than a situation where the people fear the government. Thanks to the agenda of those in power, we are living in a time of unprecedented lack of trust between the government and the people.

Consider: there are TV shows now that have made "prepping" something just shy of mainstream. And although the focus of these shows is usually something about preparing for catastrophes and disasters, there are also frequent shows about how to deal with martial law, etc. What does it say about the average state of mind of the American people when you can't even buy ammo in Wal Mart or Bass Pro Shops anymore? This is a state of distrust. And on the government side, it's no better. We have seen a steady trickle of reports and various kinds of memos and alerts, warning Law Enforcement of the dangers posed by US military veterans, people flying the Gadsen flag, people buying military surplus gear, and anyone who talks just a little too much about the US Constitution. I mean, what kind of Twilight Zone BS is that? We've also seen the SPLC grow ever more influential in many law enforcement circles and frequently referring to the dangers posed by white conservative gun owners.

Yet despite the culprit for today's tension clearly being the state of mistrust between government and the population, the response of this Administration has been to do things like pursue further gun control, redact government reports on the numbers of ammo and equipment acquisitions, and to speak in hushed tones about how they will pursue influencing domestic policy outside of overt channels. I refer to when The President was quoted as saying he would pursue gun control "under the radar", as well as his complete embrace of radical Leftist political strategy. Namely, the unethical idea of leveraging and capitalizing on whatever domestic crisis happens to emerge in order to advance the agenda:


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## TLDR20 (Mar 18, 2013)

Serious question JBS how is it unethical to leverage a crises with an agenda? That seems to me like the best time to do so. No sarcasm here serious question.


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## JBS (Mar 18, 2013)

cback0220 said:


> Serious question JBS how is it unethical to leverage a crises with an agenda? That seems to me like the best time to do so. No sarcasm here serious question.


There are about 20 different ways I can go with this, but I'll keep it to a few of the more persuasive reasons:


In a democratic republic, the country is governed by consent of the people. _*Pushing legislation through any means other than broad majority consent is counter to that principle.*_ Outside of that restrictive and straightforward channel, we are not being governed with our consent, but rather we are being governed regardless of our consent. It's supposed to be hard to pass new laws. This mechanism of inherent friction was built into our system- into our Constitution- to restrain the ability of government to become oppressive and overbearing. The entire concept was to make life for the common man easy to live, to facilitate pursuing basic happiness in life,* not* to spend significant amounts of time complying with checklists, regulatory minutiae, and burdensome requirements to engage in ordinary life activities.
Governing by crisis is inherently dishonest. It capitalizes on fear, pushing regulation that would not be desirable under conditions where there was no fear present. Indeed, the very mechanism used in "leveraging" fear is to overstate and highlight that fear; you don't leverage the fear unless you publicize the reasons people should be afraid. Is this how you want to be governed? Threatened with all kinds of terrible things unless you do what the government tells you? It may seem like an oversimplification, but at it's core, it's a means used by governments in different forms for centuries. Under the old Roman Catholic Empire, it was going to hell that kept you in check. In forms of Islam, if you don't follow the tenets you are dismembered, or executed. If you convert, you're killed. Governance by fear is, in its extreme forms, nothing more than a kind of oppression.
As we have seen in cases in modern American history, there have been Presidents and other politicians who have actively considered creating their own crisis in order to push legislation that would not normally be desirable by the people- again defeating the principle of governance by consent. These types of manufactured crisis are always the logical end result of governing by crisis. If your thought process agrees with the idea of small political groups pushing laws unwanted by the people by leveraging crisis, then how far away - ideologically- are you from either creating or permitting a crisis to occur when you need the impetus to push your agenda?
It is especially for reason number three that any free population should resist governance by fear/crisis and instead demand that laws and regulation follow the proper channels before being implemented- through the slow and rigorous process that affords the issue proper scrutiny, so that cooler heads may prevail.


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## Yoshi (Mar 18, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> In 2005, pre-Iraq surge and all that, the DoD used 1.3 billion rounds of 5.56 and 81 million rounds of 9mm. Iraq, train-ups, Basic, annual qualifications, etc...1.3 billion rounds of 5.56 alone.
> 
> http://www.gao.gov/new.items/d05687.pdf


 
I had no idea nitrocellulose was so important. Also, how dependent the U.S. was(is?) on other countries to create something so essential as ammunition.


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## RustyShackleford (Mar 19, 2013)

JBS said:


> If she did claim it, she'd be correct. Americans have stockpiled and purchased weapons and ammo at what some would call an alarming rate, according to every stat I've come across on the topic. I've heard the same joke from gun dealers and pawn brokers over and over again, "Obama is the best gun salesman the firearms industry has ever had". But I would rather live in a situation where the government fears the people, rather than a situation where the people fear the government. Thanks to the agenda of those in power, we are living in a time of unprecedented lack of trust between the government and the people.
> 
> Consider: there are TV shows now that have made "prepping" something just shy of mainstream. And although the focus of these shows is usually something about preparing for catastrophes and disasters, there are also frequent shows about how to deal with martial law, etc. What does it say about the average state of mind of the American people when you can't even buy ammo in Wal Mart or Bass Pro Shops anymore? This is a state of distrust. And on the government side, it's no better. We have seen a steady trickle of reports and various kinds of memos and alerts, warning Law Enforcement of the dangers posed by US military veterans, people flying the Gadsen flag, people buying military surplus gear, and anyone who talks just a little too much about the US Constitution. I mean, what kind of Twilight Zone BS is that? We've also seen the SPLC grow ever more influential in many law enforcement circles and frequently referring to the dangers posed by white conservative gun owners.
> 
> Yet despite the culprit for today's tension clearly being the state of mistrust between government and the population, the response of this Administration has been to do things like pursue further gun control, redact government reports on the numbers of ammo and equipment acquisitions, and to speak in hushed tones about how they will pursue influencing domestic policy outside of overt channels. I refer to when The President was quoted as saying he would pursue gun control "under the radar", as well as his complete embrace of radical Leftist political strategy. Namely, the unethical idea of leveraging and capitalizing on whatever domestic crisis happens to emerge in order to advance the agenda:


 
A couple months back I made a statement at work about how this administration has inadvertantly succeeded in putting more guns in the hands of citizens than any other administration that I can think of.  Not that it is a bad thing, but what bothers me are the numbers of people who are buying guns and have no idea how to use them and fail to put forth any effort to do so.  I foresee a large number of legally purchased firearms finding their way from legal ownership to illegal in the next five or so years due to some folks lack of willing to be responsible gun owners.


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## x SF med (Mar 19, 2013)

I can tell you the effect on me....  rifle rounds $33/box and pistol rounds $25/box... at a gun show.


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## Yoshi (Mar 19, 2013)

x SF med said:


> I can tell you the effect on me.... rifle rounds $33/box and pistol rounds $25/box... at a gun show.


 
Yea, at a gun show earlier this month 45 FMJ was going for $40 per 50 round box and that is Winchester regular. Show me a person that gets ammo at that price and I will show you a fool.


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## ShadowSpear (Mar 19, 2013)




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## pardus (Mar 21, 2013)

RustyShackleford said:


> A couple months back I made a statement at work about how this administration has inadvertantly succeeded in putting more guns in the hands of citizens than any other administration that I can think of. Not that it is a bad thing, but what bothers me are the numbers of people who are buying guns and have no idea how to use them and fail to put forth any effort to do so. I foresee a large number of legally purchased firearms finding their way from legal ownership to illegal in the next five or so years due to some folks lack of willing to be responsible gun owners.


 
When shit was crazy in NY with the preban buy up, I witnessed a lot of these idiots.

Customer. "I want to buy an AR15!"

Gun Guy. "OK, which one?"

C "That one"

G "Sure"

C "What does it do?"

G "Huh?"

C "What can I shoot with it?"

G "Uhh, what do you want it for?"

C "Personal defense, CQB, long range target shooting, duck hunting, moose hunting, rodent control, and the zombie apocalypse."

G "Give me $2500 and GTFO"

C "How dare you! I'm thinking about becoming a member of the NRA!"

G "Ch-Ching!"


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## Salt USMC (Jul 18, 2013)

Sorry to resurrect this thread, but the facts regarding the ammo deal (and the fabled 2,700 MRAPs that were reportedly purchased) seem to have come up while the discussion was on going, but were never posted for some reason.

BLUF: DHS purchased a few hundred million rounds over a 5-year timeline, and only got 32 MRAPs (from the DoD).  The 2,700 MRAP order was for the Marine Corps.

Ammo: http://www.breitbart.com/Big-Government/2013/04/04/The-Great-DHS-Ammunition-Stockpile-Myth (I can't believe I'm linking to a freaking Breitbart article, but it conclusively puts this topic to bed)
MRAPs: http://littlegreenfootballs.com/art..._Obama_DHS_Purchases_2700_Light-Armored_Tanks
http://www.businessinsider.com/homeland-security-serving-warrants-mrap-2013-3


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## TLDR20 (Jul 18, 2013)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Sorry to resurrect this thread, but the facts regarding the ammo deal (and the fabled 2,700 MRAPs that were reportedly purchased) seem to have come up while the discussion was on going, but were never posted for some reason.
> 
> BLUF: DHS purchased a few hundred million rounds over a 5-year timeline, and only got 32 MRAPs (from the DoD).  The 2,700 MRAP order was for the Marine Corps.
> 
> ...



Good to put that one to bed.


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## TheSiatonist (Sep 7, 2013)

Apologies but I just saw this photo -- it was hilarious as hell it made me remember this thread.


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## Ranger Psych (Sep 7, 2013)

pardus said:


> When shit was crazy in NY with the preban buy up, I witnessed a lot of these idiots.
> 
> Customer. "I want to buy an AR15!"
> 
> ...



Thing is, the preban buyup made sense there. How's that 7 rounds treating you?


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## JBS (Sep 9, 2013)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Sorry to resurrect this thread, but the facts regarding the ammo deal (and the fabled 2,700 MRAPs that were reportedly purchased) seem to have come up while the discussion was on going, but were never posted for some reason.
> 
> BLUF: DHS purchased a few hundred million rounds over a 5-year timeline, and only got 32 MRAPs (from the DoD).  The 2,700 MRAP order was for the Marine Corps.
> 
> ...


Ever since Breitbart turned up dead at age 43 of a heart attack and his media operations taken over by Shapiro, they've taken a left-turn politically in the company's views and broken zero news damaging to the Left.  Breitbart is no longer what it was and their "definitive debunking" of anything is worthless.

We're talking about an organization that once  forced the resignation of Shirley Sherrod after the ACORN scandal (which subsequently led to the defunding of that once supremely influential organization).   Breitbart died of a sudden heart attack a day or two after meeting with Sheriff Joe Arpaio where they were discussing how best to approach the Obama Birth Certificate fraud investigation. When Breitbart turned up dead and Shapiro moved in,  the FIRST thing he (Shapiro) did is cut ALL Breitbart media ties to the Arpaio Birth Certificate investigation and make all sorts of statements about how this matter would no longer be pursued and that there was no evidence of fraud, despite Andrew Brietbart's conviction that there was.  With his death, Andrew Breitbart's life work of exposing the most obscenely corrupt and complicated conspiracies came to an abrupt and permanent end.

Shapiro has been really good at mocking the views and suspicions of concerned citizens as "quackery" and "tin foil hattery".   Every modern American generation has had their Shapiros.  In the 1950's and 60's, they came out of the woodwork and tell the American people how silly a notion it would be for the government to do any such heinous thing as infect black US Army soldiers with syphilis and gonorrhea on purpose, or experiment with LSD on civilians... and many other ignoble and misguided (and criminal) behaviors.

Breitbart media is nothing like what it once was.

I don't get what's so funny about mocking concerned citizens.  Stockpiling ammo is happening,  and so is the militarization of domestic police forces in this country.  

I don't know what fucking bubble people are living in but this nation has changed-and for the worse- and no amount of mocking and jokes is going to change that.   I'm old enough to remember life before things got this bad.


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## pardus (Sep 9, 2013)

JBS said:


> Ever since Breitbart turned up dead at age 43 of a heart attack and his media operations taken over by Shapiro, they've taken a left-turn politically in the company's views and broken zero news damaging to the Left.  Breitbart is no longer what it was and their "definitive debunking" of anything is worthless.
> 
> We're talking about an organization that once  forced the resignation of Shirley Sherrod after the ACORN scandal (which subsequently led to the defunding of that once supremely influential organization).   Breitbart died of a sudden heart attack a day or two after meeting with Sheriff Joe Arpaio where they were discussing how best to approach the Obama Birth Certificate fraud investigation. When Breitbart turned up dead and Shapiro moved in,  the FIRST thing he (Shapiro) did is cut ALL Breitbart media ties to the Arpaio Birth Certificate investigation and make all sorts of statements about how this matter would no longer be pursued and that there was no evidence of fraud, despite Andrew Brietbart's conviction that there was.  With his death, Andrew Breitbart's life work of exposing the most obscenely corrupt and complicated conspiracies came to an abrupt and permanent end.
> 
> ...



Who's mocking?



After everything that's been said on this ammo stockpiling subject it seems that this was all overblown from the start.


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## JBS (Sep 9, 2013)

There's been a general mocking tone in the public, in the corporately owned media, and also on this board about this topic but many posts are now long gone.  This wasn't the only thread on this and related subjects and frankly it doesn't make much of a difference anyway.

It's a fact that this country has royally fucked up in many ways and particularly in abuses of various people.   Not just blacks, but also native Americans, and also American citizens of Japanes ancestry who were placed in internment camps.   Can you imagine MP's coming to your door and hauling you off to a camp?   And your wife and kids if you are married?    ... and these kinds of things weren't carried out in ancient times.  This is modern times, modern history.  There are veterans who are still alive who were part of 40 year long experiments.    In 1997 President Clinton apologized to the 8 remaining Tuskeegee Syphillis testing victims... we're talking their wives were infected, their kids born with congenital conditions.   So you understand what this means,  it means there were highly educated people- doctors of medicine,  researchers,  facilitators- all keeping quiet and denying that any kind of abuse was happening.   This isn't ancient history and it isn't an isolated incident.  And all the while there were a mixture of well meaning and naive people and those who were just flatly ignorant telling these soldiers a wide variety of bullshit as they suffered through this horrendous injustice.   More than likely they could have also been mocked as tin fokl hatters if they suggested they were targeted or in any way implicated the government in their conditions. 

If we can learn anything from these men as well as all the other victims of our government when it has on occasion lost it's moorings, it is that the best thing we can do as evolved and adjusted citizens is to look on any hint or even suggestion of abuse or excess or danger to the civilian population with prejudice and a jaundiced eye, until such time as that branch, wing, element or department under suspicion has completely and transparently exonerated itself.   My nation's government has earned my mistrust.  Every single bit of scrutiny the DHS received over these rumors was VERY FUCKING WELL deserved and those who added to the ambiguity and mistrust while hiding behind their official status  by redacting and classifying the relevant documents should be fired.

Any time there's a rumor or hint of abuse I fully expect any of my fellow citizens who have a pair to be ready to do whatever it takes to demand answers from public servants and not give a damn about mockery.  I don't owe anyone an apology for my view and anyone who is determined to prevent history from repeating itself in our America should be the same way.


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## pardus (Sep 10, 2013)

What has that got to do with ammo? I asked about the mocking on this thread r.e. the ammo (which is what this thread is about).

Most of us know a government cannot be trusted 100%, that's why we have the USA and it's Constitution today.
That said, this is not a conspiracy site and it's not going to become one. I would ask you to dial it down a bit please @JBS


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## JBS (Sep 10, 2013)

Understood.  What all of the above has to do with the ammo stockpiling rumors is that there are perfectly valid reasons for citizens to ask questions about such things and that's how this thread started.  Then, when this issue entered into the national discourse,  how did the DHS respond to concerned citizens and media coverage?   "Don't ask questions", followed by redaction and classification of documents they have no business redacting or classifying.   The amount of ammo burnt in a year by the Department of Agriculture and the Coast Guard are not matters of national security.   This is our money paying for it and we have a right to ask wtf is going on.

All it took was for posts like those made in this thread  by @Freefalling and others (who were able to find real numbers) to find out the truth about just how big a deal this issue is.  To date, not a single government official has come forward to clear all of this up,  or answer to the citizenry as a civil servant organization should.


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## Salt USMC (Sep 10, 2013)

@JBS tell us honestly: do you think Andrew Breitbart was murdered?


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## JBS (Sep 10, 2013)

Deathy McDeath said:


> @JBS tell us honestly: do you think Andrew Breitbart was murdered?


Who is "us"?  Do you refer to yourself in the majestic 3rd person or do you mean a little Shadowspear clique you feel you belong to?  Not good or healthy for the board my friend.

I don't know why I'm answering your disrespectful question, but the short answer is no, I don't.

This kind of "us" bullshit shouldn't happen here.  It's extremely condescending.


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## JBS (Sep 11, 2013)

I'm going to put a cork in it from here on, as I have the utmost respect for both the staff and members here but I don't like how this thread was handled and I don't have anything more to add.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 11, 2013)

@JBS, I agree that some of the posts in this thread were disrespectful and unprofessional. However, I also think that sometimes you, myself and many others of this board can come off as conspiracy followers. Although I don't think you or I are conspiracy mongers, I think it would be unreasonable for us to simply say "I'm not a conspiracy tard" and than carry on without self evaluation of why some may perceiving our posts as such.

Point being, you are GTG in my book and many members respect and enjoy your content (regardless of the topic or issue). However, instead of getting irritated about it, re-evaluate, re-group and drive on.


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## Ranger Psych (Sep 11, 2013)

I'd disagree severely about the conspiracy followers. There are things going on that reasonable people should be concerned and ask questions about. Proof and facts presented about why something is going on the way it is, actually is a good thing because it helps explain "the method behind the madness".  I still don't understand why DHS even needs what MRAP's it has, considering that if local agencies can coordinate to be able to get armored assets where they need to be (as demonstrated at least locally by the Police Raid accomplished down the street with a multi-agency response, Carson City Sheriff's Department providing armor and minimal manpower, local PD and SD providing the platoon plus for accomplishing the raid) combined with the state mission for NG units which have assets as well... it seems to be an expensive and unnecessary overlap of mission considering DHS really doesn't do anything that isn't already covered by all the other federal departments, minus -port security.

The ammunition thing being brought to light at least enlightened me about how they do federal level ordering in order to try to get a good deal for ammunition. 

Other things... still scratching my head about...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 11, 2013)

Just to be clear I wasn't saying anyone on this board is a conspiracy follower. I was attempting to point out that some of our "questions" can come off as such, depending on how we debate/argue or questions. 

I question everything government and political  b/c I generally believe anyone in politics is full of shit. But that's just me.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 11, 2013)

This is me taking off my mod hat for this post. The views in this post are not the staffs only my own. 



JBS said:


> Who is "us"?  Do you refer to yourself in the majestic 3rd person or do you mean a little Shadowspear clique you feel you belong to?  Not good or healthy for the board my friend.
> 
> I don't know why I'm answering your disrespectful question, but the short answer is no, I don't.
> 
> This kind of "us" bullshit shouldn't happen here.  It's extremely condescending.



Us are the people who think from your previous post that you are implying a conspiracy that killed Breitbart... The "us" are people who are confused by the last few posts in this thread. I don't think Deathy is implying he is part of a clique, and right now the only person out to get you JBS, is you. You don't like how this thread was handled? What don't you like? That "facts" were misrepresented? Look in the mirror sir. You have stated things that were at best misrepresentations.


JBS said:


> Call it what you want to call it.
> 
> I don't think anyone's calling for revolution because of the health care mandate, LOL. The question is what do the cards hold? Are they getting ready to push some wildly unpopular legislation? An executive order that won't go over well? Whatever it is, it sort of lends the appearance of preparation for something.
> 
> ...



Right here 4 posts into  this thread we were already way way off of what is accurate. As was shown later in this thread the Army alone in 2005 used upwards of 1.7 BILLION rounds. So even with your "math edits" you are short 1.3 BILLION rounds, for the army alone. That does not count for other services.





JBS said:


> The internet "Way Back" machine finds nothing either. Maybe it wasn't out long enough to be archived.
> 
> 
> The Coast Guard needs more ammo than the entire US Navy and the entire US Marine Corps at a time when they are deployed in two simultaneous wars? Doesn't seem adequate as an explanation.  *But hey what do I know*.



Nothing apparently because again still way way off. Starting to see a pattern forming.


JBS said:


> That's the very first thing I thought, too.
> 
> Then I compared the amount of the purchase to how much* the entire US military uses. It dwarfs the amount.*
> 
> Also, the business / investment community did a major WTF, when ATK published they'd gotten such a huge contract. These kinds of moves attract attention, and rightly so.



No it doesnt, not even for one service, not even close.


JBS said:


> So where is the "conspiracy" part you're referring to, and where is the "theory" part of all this?  These ammo purchases are FACTS, not theory.
> 
> If the US government is preparing for something- perhaps civil unrest due to a major shift in the US financial situation, perhaps something else- I want to know about it.   But, there's no theory at play, at least not that I know of.  You can glean a lot of information by putting your ear on the railroad tracks, to see what's coming way before it arrives.  Paying attention to US government stockpiling of massive quantities of ammunition is kind of like putting your ear to the tracks.   The question is "what's coming?"  Maybe nothing.  Probably nothing.



Do you not see what you did there? "This is fact, this is fact.....", then you sprinkle in a little of your theory, maybe they are doing x, or y. Throughout this entire thread and on the board in general you do throw out facts(though as shown above they often are misleading), not theories. But then within the same post you consistently allude to other things, dubious things. That is where the conspiracy theories come in, that is why you get called out on them. Within 1 post of this thread starting people were saying that this was going to be used in a civil war. We cleaned it up because we don't need that heat on a SOF site.





JBS said:


> _*sigh*_
> 
> Again, assuming that Scotth's link to the one unspecified "government report" is accurate, and if we throw out all the other highly placed US military and contractor quotes of consumption, we still have a massive explosion in ammo stockpiles. The only thing that has changed (if that one unspecified report is accurate) is now it looks less like a "doomsday" scenario and more like typical, ordinary governmental / bureaucratic gigantism.   As with all other government entities, the push is on to grow ever larger, even as we go bankrupt.






JBS said:


> If we had on page 1 of this thread what we have on page 5 and 6- which is links to real numbers, and a serious attempt at trying to understand this issue, this would have been a 1 or 2 page thread.



You're right it would have been but you kept throwing out things that were not exactly true, and if for all your research and concerned citizenry you didn't find things that are a 10 second google search away boggles my mind.


JBS said:


> Ever since Breitbart turned up dead at age 43 of a heart attack and his media operations taken over by Shapiro, they've taken a left-turn politically in the company's views and broken zero news damaging to the Left.  Breitbart is no longer what it was and their "definitive debunking" of anything is worthless.
> 
> We're talking about an organization that once  forced the resignation of Shirley Sherrod after the ACORN scandal (which subsequently led to the defunding of that once supremely influential organization).   Breitbart died of a sudden heart attack a day or two after meeting with Sheriff Joe Arpaio where they were discussing how best to approach the Obama Birth Certificate fraud investigation. When Breitbart turned up dead and Shapiro moved in,  the FIRST thing he (Shapiro) did is cut ALL Breitbart media ties to the Arpaio Birth Certificate investigation and make all sorts of statements about how this matter would no longer be pursued and that there was no evidence of fraud, despite Andrew Brietbart's conviction that there was.  With his death, Andrew Breitbart's life work of exposing the most obscenely corrupt and complicated conspiracies came to an abrupt and permanent end.
> 
> ...



And now we get here. You may not say it but you damn well did imply that there was some kind of conspiracy here. Obviously I am not the only one who thought so. It to me, and obviously others comes across like you are saying Breitbart got killed over the birth certificate CONSPIRACY. I am not even going to go into that one right now because I don't want to burn any brain cells.

It bothers me to no end that you have the gall to come in here spout off your shit then try and waltz the fuck on out of it like you own the place. Not only that but criticizing both the staff and other members for calling you out on what was clearly an allusion to a conspiracy theory. Sometimes JBS you are wrong. In this thread you were wrong, your ideas were dismissed because they were not accurate. I think it has been shown that while yes the government bought a lot of ammo, it isn't a nefarious amount, nor is it an abnormal amount. And while I know you want to see more outrage, that isn't happening because many of us understand how purchasing and logistics work.

You also don't like the tone? What if all I posted was left wing 9/11 truther shit on some website that you were heavily involved/invested in. I would show up once or twice a month and start a huge argument, that leads to all the quack jobs linking to your site. Then because of those links, your website gets blocked on military bases, or overseas? Because JBS, at the end of the day this site is made not for your fucking non-sense, but for the past, current, and future members of the SOF community. While I understand that we enjoy the discussions it should be pointed out that this site does not solely exist as an outlet for your perceived threats to the America you think you live in. You could have let this one lay, but you had to start a shit storm. 

Again, this is from me, not from the site administration or staff.


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## Ranger Psych (Sep 11, 2013)

I might be contradicting myself, if so consider it a statement of error on my part... but just from Wikipedia:

*Lake City Army Ammunition Plant* (LCAAP) is a 3,935-acre (15.92 km2) _*U.S. government-owned, contractor-operated*_ facility in northeastern Independence, Missouri, that was established by Remington Arms in 1941 to manufacture and test small caliber ammunition for the U.S. Army. The facility has remained in continuous operation except for one 5-year period following World War II.[1][2] *As of July 2007, the plant produced nearly 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition per year.*[3] In addition, Lake City performs small caliber ammunition stockpile reliability testing and has ammunition and weapon testing responsibilities as the NATO National and Regional Test Center.


Everything I ever shot in the military was LC headstamp unless it was for a foreign produced system (Gustav as an example).  Lake City pretty much makes everything for the DOD, and 1.4 billion rounds a year is significantly more than what the procurement contract that was the original discussion point of the thread. 

After all, that procurement contract of 900,000,000 rounds is for a duration of time, which if used to the full amount still is completely shadowed by the behemoth amount of ammunition produced by Lake City for pretty much anything in the US DOD Arsenal that fires a conventional projectile.

Pretty much (just using a 5 year contract duration, I think that this one was for longer but I can't be bothered to look at it) and even rounding up to a flat million total rounds... that's 200,000,000 rounds a year.  Let's put this into perspective:

DOD ammunition
1,400,000,000
DHS contract
   900,000,000

That extra zero for DOD makes a BIIIG difference.   Especially taking a specifically personal thing into consideration... My USP .45 Expert has a round count from one single year, using a 750 round a day 5 days a week 30 weeks to train mean.... of 112,500 rounds. This was my last year I was at Ft. Benning and was doing a personally funded trainup for doing an AMU pistol team walk on tryout (that I ended up PCS'ing to Alaska before I could participate  ). I came about those numbers because weekends I would burn about 1-2k of .45 reload, weekdays I'd visit the range would be in the 500-1000 round count and that would be pretty much every day the range was open. 30 weeks gives leeway for military related "downtime" from personal training due to field time and other military duties.

While the Federal LEO's would be better able to state exactly how much shooting goes on at FLETC for the firearms portions, I would assume that they're spending probably about the same amount of ammunition per year easily for the full capacity of the ranges that they have at their disposal, not counting continuing training.

Heck, for my Armed Guard qualification we had a 2500 rounds fired round count per weapon system that we had to qualify with (Shotgun, AR, G22) before we even actually qualified for training purposes. 50 guards on the range, 1 week, and the qualification/refresher was done for 8 weeks straight to cycle all the guards for the company through. That's a million rounds just for initial/recurring qualification training.... and it's not even counting what was authorized for resupply and training utilization at our respective central guard posts for "Sergeant's Time". Sergeants were effectively regional supervisors and could sign out ammunition for training. At least for the area I was in, he would on a pretty regular basis if guards had interest. I opted out solely because the timing always ended up being on my time off and when you live 8 hours from where you are working, it's a bit of a commute for a range day when it's done up there.


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## JBS (Sep 12, 2013)

I'm only posting because you addressed me directly and think that's the right thing to do.  I have long since lost interest in this topic and contrary to what was insinuated, I am not responsible for resurrecting it.

As to your itemized rebuttal of my posts and in particular the numbers I cited, I think I have already addressed the issue of inaccuracy in the numbers, since I quoted and linked directly to news articles and interviews with Generals and program managers who handle small arms and munitions.  Dozens of sources reported those numbers which I posted here on the board.   We all saw this and there isn't a single link to any conspiracy or nutter website, only well known and almost implicitly trusted media sources.  Those numbers were never my own.  There was a faulty press release at one point and there are links all through this thread pointing out where these numbers came from.

Regarding your comments that these numbers were readily Googleable, this is simply not the case.    It might be now but was not at the time of origin of the thread.  

Regarding how some on this board are intimately familiar with procurement,  I can only draw attention- and I mean this respectfully but won't minced words- to the fact that FOX CBS NBC CNN all have people who are familiar with procurement as well and the US Army Generals that I quoted are familiar as well and they didn't clear this issue up despite discussing it on tv news programs and Sunday talk shows.     The very number -70 million- came from a US Army General if I recall correctly.  If you had the number, or insight ( or Google skills) that all these other experts, pundits, and even all the investigative (and presumably Google-competent) reporters working for the AP which ran this story globally) couldn't or didn't bother to find, you could have posted it and been the one to shed light on this.  The government didn't bother to account for any numbers; they just decided to issue redactions and censor the data.   People whose job it is (reporters) to fact check didn't contradict the story.


Regarding your point on how these stories will draw bad attention and also potentially get the site blacklisted, I will not argue that point and understand and agree with it.  I'll only add that this is a shame since the DOD blacklisting a discussion board talking about ammo purchases is a reflection of that "reality" you infer I am fantastically living in.   If it's such a fantasy scenario then I have to wonder why the decision makers would ban or censor it.  Of course I do understand those nutter sites have other content which doesn't need to even remotely be associated with SS, hence your point stands.

One other thing:  I didn't stroll in or stroll out of this thread and I dont post to instigate conflict.  I post current events and they are of interest to many here.  As for the rest, about this board being for past, present and future SOF, I copy you loud and clear and will make sure to keep that in the very forefront of my mind going forward. 





cback0220 said:


> This is me taking off my mod hat for this post. The views in this post are not the staffs only my own.
> 
> 
> 
> ...


----------



## Slider496 (Nov 17, 2013)

dknob said:


> lol come on now LOOON... there is nothing tyrannical going on that calls for a need to overthrow. Not now, not in 20 years. Republicans will always cry about Democrats and talk about taking up arms. It's a cyclical process for years. Remember the election before Obama? How many people screamed at the top of their lungs they will get up and leave the country? Based on my facebook status alone, I'd say 75% of Republicans on my friends list. None of those fuck tards went anywhere.
> 
> If people rise up because they are annoyed about Obamacare, a sluggish economy, or Gay's being allowed to marry nationwide. Then they *deserve* to be put down by DHS and their hollow points as the treasonous dogs they are. Revolution should be in the face of tyranny, not in the face of "im a fucking pampered American who is tired of paying $5 a gallon for gas".
> 
> Face it guys.. in your personal day to day activities... barely quantifiable changes occur whether its a Republican or Democrat president.



Regardless of whether or not the president is a Democrat or Republican, hes still bound by law (As in the Constitution of the United States). The current regime seems to have forgotten that. How many laws has Obama broken since hes been in office?  Most recently the Obamacare fiasco. Where in people right mind does it seem okay for a President to up and decide to change a law, by himself. Congress, and Obama, and Bush, and every other crooked politician for the last 20 years has gotten away with murder in DC. All because the average American is too busy watching American Idol to pay attention to their own government. If that doesnt upset you something is wrong. I dont even want to bring up Benghazi, and why Hillary and all the rest of her croons aren't in jail for 1st degree murder....

As for people rising up and deserving to be put down for disagreeing with their government, it is the duty of the citizens to remind the government who they work for. Thomas Jefferson said 
*“When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty.”*

The military is firing generals for not agreeing with Obama, officers are being asked if they would order troops to fire on American citizens, Military veterans are being considered threats to national security, Political groups who dont support Obama are being targeted by the IRS, and frankly the government is buying rounds to potentially disarm the American people. And if you dont see that, then youre a little too caught up in "Hope" and "Change" my friend

So no, HE is not a Loon. Were living in crazy times, and the country is changing in disturbing ways. As in the same way Germany changed before is became a Fascist state. Dont believe me? Look it up.


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## pardus (Nov 18, 2013)

Slider496 said:


> Regardless of whether or not the president is a Democrat or Republican, hes still bound by law (As in the Constitution of the United States). The current regime seems to have forgotten that. How many laws has Obama broken since hes been in office?  Most recently the Obamacare fiasco. Where in people right mind does it seem okay for a President to up and decide to change a law, by himself. Congress, and Obama, and Bush, and every other crooked politician for the last 20 years has gotten away with murder in DC. All because the average American is too busy watching American Idol to pay attention to their own government. If that doesnt upset you something is wrong. I dont even want to bring up Benghazi, and why Hillary and all the rest of her croons aren't in jail for 1st degree murder....
> 
> As for people rising up and deserving to be put down for disagreeing with their government, it is the duty of the citizens to remind the government who they work for. Thomas Jefferson said
> *“When the people fear the government there is tyranny, when the government fears the people there is liberty.”*
> ...



"Loon" is a member here. dknob was responding to a now deleted post from Loon.


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## Slider496 (Nov 19, 2013)

pardus said:


> "Loon" is a member here. dknob was responding to a now deleted post from Loon.


I see, I apologize. No disrespect was intended.


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