# Law school or 18x



## seneca (Nov 4, 2020)

Hi, this is my first post and I am looking for mainly general advice about two different routes I am looking at. I am applying to law schools and plan to submit my application packets later this month. My goal with law school is to become an Assistant US Attorney and eventually joint the FBI. I will be attending a top 50 law school on some sort of partial scholarship I expect, based on my scores and GPA. The end goal though is FBI. But recently I have been reconsidering law School because I am not sure that I want to read more books for 3 more years (I am already a humanities student)

Thus, the option I have been flouting around with is enlisting as 18x and going SF with the end goal of retiring from the Army after 10-14 years and join the FBI. I know law is probably not in the realm of most people here, but does anyone have thoughts about which route you would recommend? From what I have read, if I were to commission then I would have to wait a couple years before I can try out for SF and I run the chance of missing my opportunity. That seems too risky since the whole point of me joining is to make my way to the FBI as a former SF.


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## Kaldak (Nov 4, 2020)

We have many legal beagles here.

I'll leave the rest to the green tagged SF members.


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## Steve1839 (Nov 4, 2020)

Your goal is to a FBI agent.  Focus on that. Just my opinion...


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## LimaPanther (Nov 4, 2020)

seneca said:


> going SF with the end goal of retiring from the Army after 10-14 years


Unless the Army has changed there  is no such animal as retiring then.


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## Kraut783 (Nov 4, 2020)

AUSA or FBI...you wanna prosecute or investigate?  One has a age cut off and mandatory retirement, the other does not. If you go law school you could join the FBI and after a bit you could find your way as a SAUSA or do the division counsel bit, but a lot of those positions are becoming non-agent positions.


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## Archangel27 (Nov 5, 2020)

Have you considered becoming a JAG and working in SOF support yourself?  Or do you feel called to pursue 18X itself?  Just curious since I've been to law school if you have any questions about that particular process.  @seneca


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## Grunt (Nov 5, 2020)

The FBI puts a lot of focus on Attorneys and Accountants. Focus on them if that is your endgame. Unless you just want to go into the military as something you feel you will regret having not done, go to school and focus on the FBI.

I worked with them for 15 years and they could care less about military....IMHO....


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## DA SWO (Nov 5, 2020)

seneca said:


> Hi, this is my first post and I am looking for mainly general advice about two different routes I am looking at. I am applying to law schools and plan to submit my application packets later this month. My goal with law school is to become an Assistant US Attorney and eventually joint the FBI. I will be attending a top 50 law school on some sort of partial scholarship I expect, based on my scores and GPA. The end goal though is FBI. But recently I have been reconsidering law School because I am not sure that I want to read more books for 3 more years (I am already a humanities student)
> 
> Thus, the option I have been flouting around with is enlisting as 18x and going SF with the end goal of retiring from the Army after 10-14 years and join the FBI. I know law is probably not in the realm of most people here, but does anyone have thoughts about which route you would recommend? From what I have read, if I were to commission then I would have to wait a couple years before I can try out for SF and I run the chance of missing my opportunity. That seems too risky since the whole point of me joining is to make my way to the FBI as a former SF.


Life comes at you fast.
All those SF guys retiring between 10-14 years, are retiring because the Army broke their bodies/minds beyond cheap repair.
18X is a two year plus pipeline.  Ton of reading, sleepless night, and physical activity that will kick your ass (big time).
Failure early on, and you end up in 3rd ID, Fail at Bragg and the MIGHTY 82nd Airborne becomes your new home.
Failure in the SF pipeline means your report to your new home trailing your peers in knowledge and experience.

FBI agents don't have weekly shoot outs, and as the new guy you'll be reviewing a lot of forms and paperwork. 1st two years after the Academy is a further culling the herd activity.

Military Lawyers get to do some very interesting things, I'd say the Army JAG Corps has the most diverse mission set.  However, like all things Military, luck of the draw.


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## seneca (Nov 5, 2020)

Kraut783 said:


> AUSA or FBI...you wanna prosecute or investigate?  One has a age cut off and mandatory retirement, the other does not. If you go law school you could join the FBI and after a bit you could find your way as a SAUSA or do the division counsel bit, but a lot of those positions are becoming non-agent positions.


I want to investigate but I see being an AUSA and prosecuting as good experience to make me a better investigator when I get there.


Templar27A said:


> Have you considered becoming a JAG and working in SOF support yourself?  Or do you feel called to pursue 18X itself?  Just curious since I've been to law school if you have any questions about that particular process.  @seneca


I have considered being a JAG, thought about doing JAG reserves and do it part time. But ultimately the purpose of me joining the military would be because I am set on 18x and try the more grunt tactical route to the FBI than the intellectual book reading route.


Grunt said:


> The FBI puts a lot of focus on Attorneys and Accountants. Focus on them if that is your endgame. Unless you just want to go into the military as something you feel you will regret having not done, go to school and focus on the FBI.
> 
> I worked with them for 15 years and they could care less about military....IMHO....


Yeah I have heard mixed reviews about how much the FBI needs or cares about former SF. I certainly want to join SWAT when I am eligible as an agent (I think you need 3 years in the Bureau before they let you try out) and so that is where I see the SF skills coming into play. I am kind of starting to realize that SF might be the longer less pipeline route than I originally imagined.


LimaPanther said:


> Unless the Army has changed there  is no such animal as retiring then.


I am wholly unfamiliar with the retirement times. I just want to join the FBI before 37 (currently 21), although I do know they give exceptions for veterans, but I don't know how that precisely works.


DA SWO said:


> Life comes at you fast.
> All those SF guys retiring between 10-14 years, are retiring because the Army broke their bodies/minds beyond cheap repair.
> 18X is a two year plus pipeline.  Ton of reading, sleepless night, and physical activity that will kick your ass (big time).
> Failure early on, and you end up in 3rd ID, Fail at Bragg and the MIGHTY 82nd Airborne becomes your new home.
> ...


Yeah failing is not really an option in my prospective plan, which might be reason to take the more sure route. I know you should never start something with a plan for when you fail, but it does seem like something I need to consider. 

How long do SF operators typically stay in action? How quickly do SF become more focused on training, leadership, coordinating, planning, etc, from their initial combat roles? It seems like those skills might be well suited for the FBI.


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## Archangel27 (Nov 5, 2020)

seneca said:


> I have considered being a JAG, thought about doing JAG reserves and do it part time. But ultimately the purpose of me joining the military would be because I am set on 18x and try the more grunt tactical route to the FBI than the intellectual book reading route.



I honestly don't follow.  Are you looking to take any job with the FBI?  I think more fundamentally you need to understand WHAT you want to do with the Fed, and it sounds like you want to be an investigator/special agent seeing as you believe prosecution experience would make you a better investigator.  It just seems weird to me because those are two totally different careers, even if they are under the same organization.


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## seneca (Nov 5, 2020)

Templar27A said:


> I honestly don't follow.  Are you looking to take any job with the FBI?  I think more fundamentally you need to understand WHAT you want to do with the Fed, and it sounds like you want to be an investigator/special agent seeing as you believe prosecution experience would make you a better investigator.  It just seems weird to me because those are two totally different careers, even if they are under the same organization.


I wanna be an FBI special agent, but I don't plan on applying for the bureau until I am 30ish. I guess I figured being a reserve JAG for 8 years or so might give me even more experience. But it's honestly not really something I have seriously considered since I doubt I will have the time if I am an AUSA, which is my goal for soon after law school.


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## Grunt (Nov 5, 2020)

seneca said:


> Yeah I have heard mixed reviews about how much the FBI needs or cares about former SF. I certainly want to join SWAT when I am eligible as an agent (I think you need 3 years in the Bureau before they let you try out) and so that is where I see the SF skills coming into play. I am kind of starting to realize that SF might be the longer less pipeline route than I originally imagined.


Even their HRT team -- or local version of their SWAT teams -- really don't care about the military or experience you gained there. I've worked with them enough to know that at the end of the day, prior military doesn't matter when it comes to those types of things.


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## 757 (Nov 5, 2020)

@seneca taken the LSAT yet???


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## Kraut783 (Nov 5, 2020)

"I want to investigate but I see being an AUSA and prosecuting as good experience to make me a better investigator when I get there."

No, being an AUSA will not make you a better investigator....better to be a JAG or an Asst. District Attorney...or a local PD and actually have investigative experience.


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## DA SWO (Nov 5, 2020)

seneca said:


> I want to investigate but I see being an AUSA and prosecuting as good experience to make me a better investigator when I get there.
> 
> I have considered being a JAG, thought about doing JAG reserves and do it part time. But ultimately the purpose of me joining the military would be because I am set on 18x and try the more grunt tactical route to the FBI than the intellectual book reading route.
> 
> ...


Dude, you are all over the RADAR.

Go be a cop for a couple of years, then figure out what you want to do with the rest of your life.


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## AWP (Nov 5, 2020)

@seneca, as an outsider to those paths, it sounds like you are trying to cram three careers into one. I'll grant that some combination of the two is possible. Otherwise, time isn't on your side.

I wish you luck, but I think you're trying to go "a bridge too far."


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## Arf (Nov 5, 2020)

Grunt said:


> The FBI puts a lot of focus on Attorneys and Accountants. Focus on them if that is your endgame. Unless you just want to go into the military as something you feel you will regret having not done, go to school and focus on the FBI.
> 
> I worked with them for 15 years and they could care less about military....IMHO....





“In 2006, to enlist more candidates, the Bureau established the Tactical Recruiting Program (TRP), which recruits individuals with tactical experience from the ranks of law enforcement and the military to fast-track them for HRT eligibility. TRP recruits follow the normal process to become FBI agents, but instead of spending three years in the field before being eligible to try out for the HRT, they are eligible after two.”


The end of the article does echo what Grunt said, however they do offer a faster track for former military and law enforcement.

Hostage Rescue Team: The Crucible of Selection | Federal Bureau of Investigation


This isn’t the most comprehensive list of requirements and overview of the pipeline but I have seen emails to my SOCOM email for recruiting us to try for HRT. Hopefully this website at least puts you on a better track.


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## Arf (Nov 5, 2020)

It seems like you just want to check everything off your bucket list. My life has been similar. The downside is that I’m not worth much money. The plus side is that I’ve done a lot of awesome stuff. Do I regret it? Only when I want to buy things.

Here is an idea, and I welcome criticism. Go Active duty SF for enough time to maximize your GI bill, then transition over to National Guard SF. From there, get your law degree. Graduate, work both as National Guard SF and a lawyer (this will be very challenging juggling both), realize you hate being a lawyer and start applying to the FBI. As far as I know, the FBI should be more lenient with your NG schedule than most civilian jobs if you want to stay with SF. 

Disclaimer: I’m neither National Guard or Reserve.


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## DA SWO (Nov 6, 2020)

Arf said:


> It seems like you just want to check everything off your bucket list. My life has been similar. The downside is that I’m not worth much money. The plus side is that I’ve done a lot of awesome stuff. Do I regret it? Only when I want to buy things.
> 
> Here is an idea, and I welcome criticism. Go Active duty SF for enough time to maximize your GI bill, then transition over to National Guard SF. From there, get your law degree. Graduate, work both as National Guard SF and a lawyer (this will be very challenging juggling both), realize you hate being a lawyer and start applying to the FBI. As far as I know, the FBI should be more lenient with your NG schedule than most civilian jobs if you want to stay with SF.
> 
> Disclaimer: I’m neither National Guard or Reserve.


IIRC correctly, you can not be in the Guard as an FBI SA.


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## Archangel27 (Nov 6, 2020)

Arf said:


> transition over to National Guard SF. From there, get your law degree. Graduate, work both as National Guard SF and a lawyer (this will be very challenging juggling both), realize you hate being a lawyer and start applying to the FBI.



Don't forget sitting for and passing the bar exam while simultaneously trying to be Guard is a ball of fun.  One of my classmates at a top 20 law school sat for the CA bar in 2019, but his Guard unit wouldn't let him get out of AT.  He basically had to write off passing the test and the $900 administrative fee since he got out of drill the weekend before the CA bar.  Wouldn't he have to be barred in the states with the NG SF units as well to avoid having to travel there every month for drill?  (My own ignorance here.)  Could be difficult depending on the circumstances.

I know USERRA will ostensibly help his case, but I'm not sure you'll find very many guardsmen who have jobs at bigger private firms because they oftentimes can't bill enough hours while juggling those responsibilities, or the firms will not hire reservists or guardsmen in the first place to preclude that issue. Working with a government entity such as a District Attorney may allow him more flexibility while being a lawyer but even so, there's a lot of hoops to jump through and unless he can get the GI bill to pay for his law school, it seems like a lot of debt to take on to just check a box if he's not intent on practicing law long term.

That's just my $.02.


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## DA SWO (Nov 6, 2020)

Templar27A said:


> Don't forget sitting for and passing the bar exam while simultaneously trying to be Guard is a ball of fun.  One of my classmates at a top 20 law school sat for the CA bar in 2019, but his Guard unit wouldn't let him get out of AT.  He basically had to write off passing the test and the $900 administrative fee since he got out of drill the weekend before the CA bar.  *Wouldn't he have to be barred in the states with the NG SF units as well to avoid having to travel there every month for drill?  (My own ignorance here.) * Could be difficult depending on the circumstances.
> 
> I know USERRA will ostensibly help his case, but I'm not sure you'll find very many guardsmen who have jobs at bigger private firms because they oftentimes can't bill enough hours while juggling those responsibilities, or the firms will not hire reservists or guardsmen in the first place to preclude that issue. Working with a government entity such as a District Attorney may allow him more flexibility while being a lawyer but even so, there's a lot of hoops to jump through and unless he can get the GI bill to pay for his law school, it seems like a lot of debt to take on to just check a box if he's not intent on practicing law long term.
> 
> That's just my $.02.


Bold face part, no


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## seneca (Nov 6, 2020)

AWP said:


> @seneca, as an outsider to those paths, it sounds like you are trying to cram three careers into one. I'll grant that some combination of the two is possible. Otherwise, time isn't on your side.
> 
> I wish you luck, but I think you're trying to go "a bridge too far."


Great movie, but yeah I'm realizing its not a great life plan. If I am reading the underlining go the responses it sounds like going SF and any incorporation of law before FBI involves me busting my balls for years. Law school is beginning to certainly appear to be my best route.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 6, 2020)

seneca said:


> Hi, this is my first post and I am looking for mainly general advice about two different routes I am looking at. I am applying to law schools and plan to submit my application packets later this month. My goal with law school is to become an Assistant US Attorney and eventually joint the FBI. I will be attending a top 50 law school on some sort of partial scholarship I expect, based on my scores and GPA. The end goal though is FBI. But recently I have been reconsidering law School because I am not sure that I want to read more books for 3 more years (I am already a humanities student)
> 
> Thus, the option I have been flouting around with is enlisting as 18x and going SF with the end goal of retiring from the Army after 10-14 years and join the FBI. I know law is probably not in the realm of most people here, but does anyone have thoughts about which route you would recommend? From what I have read, if I were to commission then I would have to wait a couple years before I can try out for SF and I run the chance of missing my opportunity. That seems too risky since the whole point of me joining is to make my way to the FBI as a former SF.



Gosh this is a wild ride.  All of those things are completely different.  As another poster said the FBI likes attorneys and accountants in recruiting, but I also know quite a few agents that are neither and also have no .mil background.   Some have been law enforcement before and some just got through the recruitment process.  So joining the FBI isn't about one thing or the other, but it may help.

I live with an attorney, I also went to law school for a specialty program, but don't have a JD.  I would tell you that if you are going to go to law school and become an Assistant US Attorney (this is very competitive and hard to do right out of law school, almost as hard as getting Federal Clerkships) then you should punt on the idea of the FBI thing.  I'm being serious. 

Now if you went to Law School and decided to apply for the FBI, that needs to be your focus.  

Now let's get to 18 Series stuff, guessing you're in college right now...but are thinking of not going to Law School.  Why is OCS not an option for you? 

Now onto SF as a pathway to the FBI, why? This is quite similar to becoming an AUSA and then wanting to leave that and join the FBI.  Two extremely different things.  

Like someone else said you seem to be trying to do everything and you're probably 21 to 22.  Pick and commit to one of paths is my advice.  

Also, if you do choose to attend Law School (It's three years of hard learning) you may choose to do something completely different, like representing vulnerable adults.


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## Kraut783 (Nov 6, 2020)

DA SWO said:


> IIRC correctly, you can not be in the Guard as an FBI SA.



Yes, you CAN be in the NG or Reserve and be a FBI SA. I work with several FBI SA's who are either in the NG or Reserves. The policy changed about 10ish years ago.


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## JedisonsDad (Nov 6, 2020)

Honest question here. Not going to judge you based off your answer, but how you answer helps determine paths towards goals.

If you’re going for titles, like Dr. Astronaut SEAL Jonny Kim (not saying Kim is chasing titles), it’s possible to check all your boxes, but it won’t be quick or easy, and probably not rewarding if you’re always looking at your current situation as a road block to your next achievement.

If you’re looking for financial stability/retirement/lots of money, those all have different paths. Mil/FBI being the stability, lawyer potentially being the money as long as you don’t turn out like a shady ambulance chaser.

If you’re looking for job satisfaction, that’s for you to decide what makes you happy.

Let’s say something happens, whether that’s financially, legally, physically, or mentally, and you aren’t able to move past the situation you happen to be in. Would you be happy where you are? Or will you always be chasing your white whale?


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## AWP (Nov 6, 2020)

Templar27A said:


> Don't forget sitting for and passing the bar exam while simultaneously trying to be Guard is a ball of fun.  One of my classmates at a top 20 law school sat for the CA bar in 2019, but his Guard unit wouldn't let him get out of AT.  He basically had to write off passing the test and the $900 administrative fee since he got out of drill the weekend before the CA bar.  Wouldn't he have to be barred in the states with the NG SF units as well to avoid having to travel there every month for drill?  (My own ignorance here.)  Could be difficult depending on the circumstances.
> 
> I know USERRA will ostensibly help his case, but I'm not sure you'll find very many guardsmen who have jobs at bigger private firms because they oftentimes can't bill enough hours while juggling those responsibilities, or the firms will not hire reservists or guardsmen in the first place to preclude that issue. Working with a government entity such as a District Attorney may allow him more flexibility while being a lawyer but even so, there's a lot of hoops to jump through and unless he can get the GI bill to pay for his law school, it seems like a lot of debt to take on to just check a box if he's not intent on practicing law long term.
> 
> That's just my $.02.



A couple of hits here in support of your post:
- In the 90's, when deployment opportunities didn't exist, we had 2 guys go to law school, 2 to Physician's Assistant, and a couple of Masters level engineering programs. I think one of the PA students stayed in the Guard, the rest retired or ETS'ed due to the time involved in those programs. The one who stayed in went on a non-deployable status for the duration of his program. Team guy, 18D, and they buried him somewhere so he could complete the program without hurting his team. He went to drill and that was it.
- Employers are SUPPOSED to be agnostic when it comes to hiring/ retaining Guard and Reserve. Yeah, nah, it doesn't work like that in the real world. HR departments exist to protect companies and they have ways of legal discrimination.
- We had two practicing lawyers including our BN CDR. Both had their own firms. You'd think working for the State would confer some protection, but see my post above. There are legal ways to discriminate against Guard/ Reserve.


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## seneca (Nov 9, 2020)

JedisonsDad said:


> Honest question here. Not going to judge you based off your answer, but how you answer helps determine paths towards goals.
> 
> If you’re going for titles, like Dr. Astronaut SEAL Jonny Kim (not saying Kim is chasing titles), it’s possible to check all your boxes, but it won’t be quick or easy, and probably not rewarding if you’re always looking at your current situation as a road block to your next achievement.
> 
> ...


I do not care about titles. I am looking for job satisfaction, which hopefully provides some financial security. Yeah that's good for me to think about.


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## BloodStripe (Nov 10, 2020)

If you like legal, why not pursue a law degree while being an infantryman? It's much less demanding on your schedule than being in the 18 series and you'll still get the opportunity to slay bodies.


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## DA SWO (Nov 10, 2020)

BloodStripe said:


> If you like legal, why not pursue a law degree while being an infantryman? It's much less demanding on your schedule than being in the 18 series and you'll still get the opportunity to slay bodies.


Full-time law school is a bitch for the 1st year and a half.
Survivors may relax a little during their last year, but they still have internships, etc, to accomplish.
EDRE's, deployments and other Army buffonery will cut into his time.


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## Archangel27 (Nov 10, 2020)

BloodStripe said:


> If you like legal, why not pursue a law degree while being an infantryman? It's much less demanding on your schedule than being in the 18 series and you'll still get the opportunity to slay bodies.



Good luck doing that. I got absolutely wrecked during my first year of law school even without other things to worry about, let alone infantry commitments.

Your 1L grades matter a lot in terms of internships, and as you move up, your commitments move beyond classes and can include things like moot court, law review, or other extern/internships during the school year.  Unless he's okay with accepting he'll be very disadvantaged in dealing with Army stuff, especially when classes are graded on a curve in law school, it's ill-advised.


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## BloodStripe (Nov 10, 2020)

DA SWO said:


> Full-time law school is a bitch for the 1st year and a half.
> Survivors may relax a little during their last year, but they still have internships, etc, to accomplish.
> EDRE's, deployments and other Army buffonery will cut into his time.



When I was in the Marine Corps Reserves it was strictly one weekend a month/2 weeks a year type situation outside of deployments to Iraq, of which there are very little Reserves doing 7 month deployments. If he went enlisted he would be at most an E4 (Army) or an E3 (Marines). They have very little responsibilities outside of those drill weekends. 

I've never been to law school but I've gone the Executive MBA route and know that juggling school and other life responsibilities are tough but not impossible.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 10, 2020)

Templar27A said:


> Good luck doing that. I got absolutely wrecked during my first year of law school even without other things to worry about, let alone infantry commitments.
> 
> Your 1L grades matter a lot in terms of internships, and as you move up, your commitments move beyond classes and can include things like moot court, law review, or other extern/internships during the school year.  Unless he's okay with accepting he'll be very disadvantaged in dealing with Army stuff, especially when classes are graded on a curve in law school, it's ill-advised.



I went through my Law Program with a reservist HUMINT Sergeant First Class.  He liked the specialized program so much he wanted more torture and is a 1L now.


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## AlphaVictor (Nov 10, 2020)

Edit: failed attempt at replying to an above post.

Mods please delete if possible


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## AlphaVictor (Nov 10, 2020)

DA SWO said:


> IIRC correctly, you can not be in the Guard as an FBI SA.


Edit pt 2: Kraut beat me to it. No need to beat a dead horse. Apologies, as my reading abilities seem to degrade immensely on my mobile phone. I'll go scurry off and smoke myself.


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