# They came, they saw, then left the Afghan war without a single mission



## Ravage (Oct 10, 2008)

*They came, they saw, then left the Afghan war without a single mission*

09 October 2008 

By Jerome Starkey in Kabul

GERMANY has admitted its Special Forces have spent three years in Afghanistan without doing a single mission, and are now going to be withdrawn.

More than 100 soldiers from the elite Kommando Spezialkrafte regiment, or KSK, are set to leave the war-torn country after their foreign minister revealed they had never left their bases on an operation.

The KSK troops were originally sent to Afghanistan to lead counter-terrorist operations.

But Frank-Walter Steinmeier, the foreign minister, admitted they had not been deployed "a single time" in the last three years, despite a desperate shortage of Special Forces units in the country.

Troops from Britain's Special Boat Service and the SAS work round the clock, across Afghanistan, alongside US navy Seals and Delta Force, to target terrorists, arrest drug lords and rescue hostages.

The KSK were part of the US-led Operation Enduring Freedom, which spearheads the international hunt for Osama bin Laden.

Senior military officials last night blasted the KSK commanders for keeping the troops in camp. One western military official accused Germany of "sitting on the sidelines while the rest of the world fights".

He said: "It's just unbelievable to think there have been 100 highly-trained troops sitting doing nothing for three years, while everyone else has worked their socks off. It's no good sending troops if they don't do anything. They might as well have stayed at home."

Another source said: "It's ludicrous that they would be here and not contributing."

Berlin is under almost constant pressure from the rest of Nato to increase its troop contribution and scrap special national caveats which prevent German troops deploying to volatile parts of the country, like Helmand. Last year it emerged that Norwegian troops, fighting alongside their German allies, were forced to abandon a battle at tea-time because German pilots refused to fly emergency medical helicopters in the dark.

Mr Steinmeier claimed the KSK's inactivity as an excuse to withdraw the Commandos from Afghanistan.

He said: "That's why the KSK element should be taken out of the OEF mandate."

Berlin was set to renew the KSK mission for another year in November, but they are now expected to fly home instead.

A spokesman for Operation Enduring Freedom said: "We don't have enough troops in Afghanistan."

But, he added: "Common sense says if they weren't being used, they won't be missed."

The KSK revelations came as Nato's leading commanders were renewing their calls for more troops.

Angela Merkel, the German chancellor, agreed to send an extra 1,000 troops to Afghanistan this week, but they will be confined to the north of the country which is relatively safe.

Most of Germany's troops are based in Mazar-e Sharif, at an airbase complete with a series of bars and a nightclub. Nato wants Germany to do more in Afghanistan, but the mission is deeply unpopular with German voters.

Mr Steinmeier told Der Spiegel newspaper: "You cannot just keep piling elements on without taking a critical look at our current responsibilities."

*BACKGROUND*

SOME 40 countries contribute troops to the 47,600-strong Nato mission in Afghanistan, led by the United States with some 18,000 troops and Britain with more than 8,000. Germany is the third largest contributor. The US is set to send an extra 14,000 troops to Afghanistan next year, and it has been rumoured there are British plans to send 4,000 more.

It is still British, American, Canadian, Dutch, Australian and Danish soldiers who bear much of the combat weight in the country, alongside the soldiers of the Afghan national army. A recent French deployment led to the death of ten soldiers in a Taleban ambush, leading to widespread calls to withdraw the troops.

http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/world/They-came-they-saw-.4573584.jp

Another view:

*German Commandos Withdrawn From Afghanistan *

October 9, 2008: Germany is pulling its commandos out of Afghanistan. The KSK commandos have been there for most of the last seven years. Many Germans, especially leftist politicians and journalists, have not been happy with that. This has resulted in several unflattering, and largely inaccurate, articles about the KSK in the German media. There was also an investigation of several KSK men, accused of kicking an Afghan prisoner. While the KSK were allowed to fight, they also operated under some restrictions. They generally could not fire at the enemy unless first fired upon. This led to at least one senior Taliban leader getting away from the KSK. The fleeing Taliban honcho was not firing at the pursuing KSK, so the commandos could not take him down. 

Germany sent 120 KSK commandos to Afghanistan in late 2001. They were not given their own area of operation, but worked with American special forces and commandos as needed. The KSK commandos are the first German troops to engage in combat since 1945 (not counting some communist East German military advisers who may have had to defend themselves in places like Africa. German peacekeepers in the 1990s Balkans have not had to fight.) KSK's achievement was celebrated in late 2001, when a supply of quality German beer was flown in for the troops. 

The KSK were respected by their fellow special operations soldiers, and particularly liked because the Germans were sent beer rations (two cans a day per man). The KSK troops would often share the brew with their fellow commandos, which sometimes resulted in favors in the form of special equipment or intel data. Even with the restrictions, the KSK saw lots of action, but little of it was publicized, lest it generate more criticism back home. 

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htsf/articles/20081009.aspx


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## riptide (Oct 10, 2008)

WOW! :eek::doh: KSK sitting on the sidelines in the War on Terror


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## 18C4V (Oct 10, 2008)

I was in Afghanistan in 02 and there were quite a few NATO troops not going out. The NATO troops I saw spent most of their time drinking and sun tanning. Oh yeah, the Germans ran their Schützenschnur and asked us if we wanted to participate. But then again, 20th Group was doing MFF jumps in K-2 also.


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## pardus (Oct 10, 2008)

Fucking disgraceful IMO. 
Germany should hang it's head in shame, Wehrmacht members surely are, but not for themselves...

Oh how the mighty have fallen...


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## Seraph (Oct 11, 2008)

Not good if true.

But was it...



			
				StrategyPage said:
			
		

> the KSK saw lots of action, but little of it was publicized


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## Ajax (Oct 11, 2008)

took over a german team house in Bagram some years back.  Pool and remants of some hellacious parties.  We didn't get to enjoy it as long as they did.

I feel bad for the KSK soldiers.  I don't care what nationality you are, there's a lot of pride that goes with being in SOF.  These cats just got pissed on by their own govt on the world stage.  "KSK, dinner time!"  "Aww, but mom, we're still playing!" "No buts, mister!  And what did I tell you about playing with those other boys?  You might get hurt.  Mama's little angel needs to stay safe."  <snickers from other boys>


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## Ravage (Oct 11, 2008)

18C4V said:


> But then again, 20th Group was doing MFF jumps in K-2 also.



In Afghanistan you mean ?


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## Crusader74 (Oct 11, 2008)

Ravage said:


> In Afghanistan you mean ?




He means what he said Ravage. Please don't contradict an SOF vetted member.


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## SpitfireV (Oct 13, 2008)

Irish, I don't think Rav was meaning to contradict him but rather to clarify- or at least that's how I read it. 

Anyway, did the Gerrys get ribbons for this? I suppose they'd qualify for overseas service :uhh:


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## Crusader74 (Oct 14, 2008)

SpitfireV said:


> Irish, I don't think Rav was meaning to contradict him but rather to clarify- or at least that's how I read it.
> 
> Anyway, did the Gerrys get ribbons for this? I suppose they'd qualify for overseas service :uhh:




K2 is an FOB inUzbekistan..Uzbekistan is not Afghanistan so I think 18C4V would have said Afghanistan if he meant it.Ravage should have worded his post a little better.


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## SpitfireV (Oct 14, 2008)

Roger. I'm not meaning to stir anything up here you understand.


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## Crusader74 (Oct 14, 2008)

SpitfireV said:


> Roger. I'm not meaning to stir anything up here you understand.




No bother..

Now back to regular programming;)


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## Crusader74 (Oct 14, 2008)

SpitfireV said:


> Anyway, did the Gerrys get ribbons for this? I suppose they'd qualify for overseas service :uhh:




Yes they'll receive their deployment Medal. 

After all its not their fault..After all that's what they train for and you can't blame them for their Governments decision.


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## pardus (Oct 14, 2008)

Irish_Army01 said:


> After all its not their fault..After all that's what they train for and you can't blame them for their Governments decision.



Yes absolutely!

I've heard many reports that the Germans are top notch Soldiers etc... 
Just sucks they aren't allowed to play with the rest of the boys in the sand pit.

Trust me, coming from New Zealand, I know what they are going through...

The last time we really got to play properly was in Vietnam.


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## SpitfireV (Oct 14, 2008)

You mean the RF at any rate. SAS seem to be having a ball, from the small bits I've heard or read. ;)


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## dashonecharlie (Oct 14, 2008)

The leadoff post about the KFK has gotten me thinking, and ginning up at least one quetion that's in questionable taste:  How far up the Bundeswehr/Regierung food chain is it necessary to go, in finding the source(s) of their "Nasstraum"?


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## Poetic_Mind (Oct 14, 2008)

After reading this article, I thought back to WW2. Perhaps die Deutche Bundesrepublik was afraid of taking action after WW2. I have nothing to back it up, but I hear from family back in Germany that there were serious restrictions placed upon the German military after the war. Supposedly they could only engage in the War on Terrorism provided they went in jointly with a group like NATO. What makes no sense to me is that these highly trained German soldiers are doing absolutely nothing _to fight the War on Terror_.


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## pardus (Oct 14, 2008)

SpitfireV said:


> You mean the RF at any rate. SAS seem to be having a ball, from the small bits I've heard or read. ;)



They've always been active. :cool:


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## Simmerin' SigO (Oct 14, 2008)

I've had the privilege of working with KSK (partner unit with their Signal/Service guys); good Soldiers and fit for any Army.

If true, it's sad news.  I hope there's a piece to this story we're missing. :2c:


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## Ravage (Oct 15, 2008)

GROM had a simmilar problem in '03, when the Polish commanders didn't want to take responsibilety for sending men into harms way, our Tier1 SOF unit had only one type of job: escort EOD techs from thbe Camp and to the Camp....

Fortunatly now they are doing what they are best in - blowing shit up  (or so I've read on the net)


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## SpitfireV (Oct 15, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> They've always been active. :cool:



That's a given though


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## AWP (Nov 5, 2008)

I'm uber-late to the thread and thought I'd use my supernatural powers to revive it with a few observations.

"K2" is usually meant to be the old airfield in Uzbekistan but I have heard it used for Kandahar by the Air Force. Some thing with "J-bad" in that it used to refer to Jacobabad, Pakistan but now it generally refers to Jalalabad, Afghanistan. 

Fuck Germany. They've taken some loses near Kunduz but they (along with some other asshole countries) won't venture south where the heaviest of fighting is occurring. Their soldiers may be rock stars but it doesn't matter as their country has turned them into groupies.

Honestly, if it isn't a US or Commonwealth nation then I don't trust it. Other nations are on the JV squad for a variety of reasons.


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## pardus (Nov 5, 2008)

The New Zealand general election is Nov 8th, if the govt changes there has been a pledge to commit to a more active role in the GWOT, I did my part to help that happen in a couple of days time.


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## AWP (Nov 5, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> The New Zealand general election is Nov 8th, if the govt changes there has been a pledge to commit to a more active role in the GWOT, I did my part to help that happen in a couple of days time.



You've got the PRT in Bamian but that's a reasonably quiet area (compared to the south and east of the country). If you're kin are anything like the Aussies I'd like to see more of them over there....even if a 203 hung under a Steyr looks odd.


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## pardus (Nov 5, 2008)

Yeah, that was after I left, we were still using M-79s when I was in :uhh:


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## AWP (Nov 5, 2008)

I had an Air Force "dude" try to say that wasn't a Steyr. I told him I was pretty sure that it was. 
"How do you know?"
"You're in the AF. You know what a B-52 looks like?"
"Of course."
"Then I'm pretty sure I know what the fuck a Steyr and a 203 looks like. I read a book once."

People.....


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## SpitfireV (Nov 5, 2008)

National haven't really pledged that at all, Pardus, but they've made a few noises. They're getting my electorate vote, anyway. Brash made a comment that the Nuclear Ban would be "gone by lunchtime" last election, but it's a new leader now. We'll see.


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## pardus (Nov 5, 2008)

John Key said it, I'm trying to find the article now.


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## Mac_NZ (Nov 5, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> Yeah, that was after I left, we were still using M-79s when I was in :uhh:



Did you march into battle in column of route and proceed to fire volleys by ranks as well? 

We live in hope that our socialist govt either grows some balls or departs and lets us do what we train our butts off for.


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## pardus (Nov 5, 2008)

Hey fuck off!  lol  

They got rid of Bren guns only about 4-5 years before I enlisted.
My first field ex was done wearing JGs, we wore wollen shirts, no DPM back then lol
But we did have the issue Swanis, actually I still have mine right here :cool: 




Mac_NZ said:


> Did you march into battle in column of route and proceed to fire volleys by ranks as well?
> 
> We live in hope that our socialist govt either grows some balls or departs and lets us do what we train our butts off for.



It is my wish that an RNZIR unit is deployed on a combat mission, just a company attached to an Aussie Bn would be awesome and sustainable ala Vietnam.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 5, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> Yeah, that was after I left, we were still using M-79s when I was in :uhh:



We still had them in 5th Group my first trip to Iraq, in 2004.


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## pardus (Nov 5, 2008)

They are superior to the 203 I think, just not as convenient.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 5, 2008)

I wouldn't know, I never fired one.  

We had them in the JOC, for SCIF destruction I guess.  I was like, "um, I'll stick with the thermite, thanks."   :uhh:


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## pardus (Nov 5, 2008)

Marauder06 said:


> I wouldn't know, I never fired one.
> 
> We had them in the JOC, for SCIF destruction I guess.  I was like, "um, I'll stick with the thermite, thanks."



  :doh:

Fucking REMF.................. ah Sir :doh:   lol


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## SpitfireV (Nov 5, 2008)

Weren't the Bren guns just fiddled with a little bit and redesigned to be the Gympy? 

I picked one up once, mucho respecto to the guys who used to luge those around on foot!


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## pardus (Nov 5, 2008)

SpitfireV said:


> Weren't the Bren guns just fiddled with a little bit and redesigned to be the Gympy?
> 
> I picked one up once, mucho respecto to the guys who used to luge those around on foot!



No, totally different weapons system.
The bren was modified by changing it's caliber from .303 cal to 7.62x51mm.

Brits continued to use it into the 90's, it is an excellent machine gun, one of the most accurate MGs in the world, which although going against traditional MG use is actually very desirable for urban ops.

The bren aint a whole lot different in weight to other MGs, ala jimpy etc...

Great gun that should still be in service today IMO. :2c:


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## SpitfireV (Nov 5, 2008)

Ah I see. Thanks for explaining that. It's all interesting stuff IMO.


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## pardus (Nov 5, 2008)

I love this shit!

First gun Mk I Bren, .303 cal, same one NZ took to WWII (I own one here in the USA! ;)  )

Second gun the 7.62x51mm L4A1 Bren, as used by the Brits in Ulster and the Falklands.

Third gun my personal favourite weapon the sexy Jimpy! :cool:


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## pardus (Nov 5, 2008)

Even though he is firing it wrong, with the wrong grip and the wrong position of his body, I think he is 100% correct in his assessment of this wonderful gun.

30 to 40 round burst in this role :cool:

One of my favourite experiences in the Army was advancing during a live fire attack, with a jimpy firing bursts into targets in front of us as we advanced, when we got to about 50m in front of the target the guns lifted and continued to fire as we walked underneath, I still get a hard thinking about the rounds cracking overhead! :cool:

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEklMS0iRj8"]YouTube - Andy McNab Explains the GPMG[/ame]


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## Mac_NZ (Nov 6, 2008)

*Hijack*

I was lucky enough to fire a Bren along with a WWII Soviet Maxim with little wheels and an MG-34 at Trentham before a friend passed away and his collection was auctioned, deadly accurate but bugger all beaten zone.

I remember being cracked with an aiming post for firing an SFMG like that.

ASAFFS for SF and HMG is 50mils nowadays so if we set the gunline up 1km away we can have supporting fire in training 50m forward of assaulting troops, they get a bit twitchy about overhead fire though.  Might have something to do with some asshole forgetting to put a charge bag on an 81mm HE.  
We still carry one C9 and a light role Mag 58 in each section but will be changing to two MG-4 when the come into service.

Did you see the SLRs the armorers slicked up for the groupies in Astan Pardus?

Its a pity for the krauts, my Grandpop had a lot of respect for them, hated them but had a lot respect.


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## pardus (Nov 6, 2008)

You're replacing a jimpy with a fucking 5.56? :doh: fuck!

When will those cunts learn?

Tell me about the SLRs!! best rifle ever fielded IMO, I love that rifle!
When I was up in hobsonville/papakura for some training I talked to some squadron guys and at that point in time they had totally discarded the SLR which I thought was insane. WTF do I know I was only a section cmdr /squad leader. :uhh:



Mac_NZ said:


> I was lucky enough to fire a Bren along with a WWII Soviet Maxim with little wheels and an MG-34 at Trentham before a friend passed away and his collection was auctioned, deadly accurate but bugger all beaten zone.
> 
> I remember being cracked with an aiming post for firing an SFMG like that.
> 
> ...


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## Mac_NZ (Nov 6, 2008)

Nope, the one we were shown was a 7.62mm with a para stock.  I just googled it and the H&K MG-4 looks nothing like what we are getting.  The new one looks like a C9 para.  I either confused myself or some idiot from DTA knows sweet F all.  Sorry mate.

That decision bit them in the arse.  They pulled SLRs out of war stocks, put mil std rails, Acogs, bipods and suppressors on them and sent them overseas.


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## SpitfireV (Nov 6, 2008)

There was a picture in the army news a few years back attached to a recruiting blurb for them which showed it. Only picture I've seen of it so far and it looked very snazzy. I suppose AF has those big open spaces that 7.62 is helpful on. 

Nice vid, Pardus. I generally avoid talking about the 50 with the ex navy guy on my team for the same reason- it "bars him up" and that's not something I want to be around


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## pardus (Nov 6, 2008)

Mac_NZ said:


> Nope, the one we were shown was a 7.62mm with a para stock.  I just googled it and the H&K MG-4 looks nothing like what we are getting.  The new one looks like a C9 para.  I either confused myself or some idiot from DTA knows sweet F all.  Sorry mate.
> 
> That decision bit them in the arse.  They pulled SLRs out of war stocks, put mil std rails, Acogs, bipods and suppressors on them and sent them overseas.






Ah that's great! Awesome!

Ha, just because it's old doesnt mean it don't work! ;)

Nice to hear the SLR is back! :cool


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