# The short History of MarSoc, Force and a whole lot o drama



## SoloKing (Feb 6, 2009)

This is a responce I gave to question(s) about MarSoc. Not even sure what the fuck a "BLOG" is or what the hell its for but, I know a lot of people have questions and wanted to make this more available. Hope this helps and don't just clog up space.

The biggest issue, among the many we have had and still have, because Marines are stubbern retards and try and reinvent the wheel, is command relation. Big Green Marine Corps, still wants to call all the shoots for their newest and highest speed unit MarSoc, but what they don't understand is we may still be Marines but we work for SOCOM now. So, there has been a power struggle of sorts at every level. Marine Corps says " MarSoc will be part of the MEU" SOCOM says "MarSoc needs to get into CENTCOM now and get off the damn ships, Marine Corps "MarSoc will be the top maritime SOF", SOCOM "No thats why we have SEALs now get your ass to CENTCOM and get some opperational experiance as a new SOF unit", and it gos on and on back and forth. All the while team guys are stuck in the middle waiting for mom and dad to stop fighting, because at the end of the day all a team guy wants to do is just shoot some assholes, we don't care if its in space! Just let us go do the job we been training for for the last 1 1/2-2yrs ......uhhh!

So, that brings us here. My team was the last team to be part of the MEU, SOCOM put it's foot down, and we were off the boats mid float and in CENTCOM, thankfully, doing our job. That same MEU had 1st Recon Delta Co on it, they saw the oppertunity and jumped with both feet into the roll of FORCE and did a great job! Both 1st and 2nd RECON BN saw that MarSoc might get pulled off the ships early on and new it was a oppertunity to fill the gap and bring back FORCE. The MEU along with Big Green Marine Corp was happy to have their capability back. Around the same time there was a change of command at MarSoc and with it, a new command philosify MarSOc will do what SOCOM say.................. for the most part, we still have issues.

As a side note to the drama, FORCE ended up with us (my MarSoc CO) in CENTCOM a few months later kick'n some seriouse ass in a adj AO. I think they smoked more assholes than we did, lucky fuckers......

As far as competing for who gos where, in short there are not enough Recon Marines to go around and the demand has more than doubled in less than two years. But as stated earlyer the rotation is 4-5 years and we all end up going back to our roots. Many of the old school Force guys however, talk about going back to BN just to be in FORCE again, they miss the old school Recon patrol stuff, along with the maritime missions that MarSoc has gotten away from. That and everything about Force is straight forward and to the point. Everything about MarSoc is a building process, and its fucking painful at times, we are learning as fast as we can as we go, because SOCOM's way of doing things is all new to us. Some of the growing pains have manifest them selfs badly and very publicly in the news and other media.............

As far as what the future looks like, Force has been reserected and will take care of the MEU and it's special missions needs. MarSoc will continue it's painful growing process and fill the nitch best suited for them as directed by SOCOM. My personal oppinoin is that MarSoc will continue with less DA and get SR heavy, as that is what Recon Marines (thats who makes up the bulk or MarSoc now) are truely great at.

This is the story as I know it for the last 3 years, I left out some details but that is the down and dirty.


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## Teufel (Jan 11, 2011)

In 2006 General Conway indicated that he was going to dissolve the Force Reconnaissance Companies and move them over to SOCOM.  General Mattis was the CG of I MEF and he took two platoons out of 1st Force Reconnaissance Company and moved them over to 1st Recon Bn to stand up a deep reconnaissance company and maintain some sort of deep reconnaissance capability in I MEF.  He then drew up an MOU that froze those Marines in place for the most part.  Some guys got orders to MSOB or other parts of the Marine Corps but the majority stayed in place.  II MEF ended up doing the same thing but the Marines were shotgunned across the battalion.

Delta company started to rebuild itself for the next year or so.  In the summer of 2008 2/7 had 6 or 7 Marines get killed in one day and General Helland, the CG of I MEF after General Mattis, activated the Air Contingency Force (ACF) and deployed a platoon from Delta Company to Afghanistan within five days of receiving the warning order.  The Commandant saw the platoon overseas and decided to reform the Force Reconnaissance companies based on their performance.  Force Reconnaissance Company, I MEF was reestablished in the summer of 2008 with it's own MCC and Force Recon CO II MEF and III MEF all followed a few months later.  2nd Force sent a platoon to replace the platoon from 1st and there have been Force Reconaissance platoons in Afghanistan and on the MEU since then.

You won't see any mention of recon but all of the following articles about the 2008-2009 deployment from 1st Force.  That platoon was responsible for killing well over a hundred Taliban alone, the majority being direct fire kills.

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/new...ws/marine-makes-insurgents-pay-the-price.html
http://www.military.com/news/articl...tetz005548-let-us-not-overlook-battle-shewan/


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## Ravage (Jan 11, 2011)

SoloKing said:


> But as stated earlyer the rotation is 4-5 years and we all end up going back to our roots.



Rotation with MarSOC or the Fleet Recon/Force Recon ?
I'm really confused here....


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## ÉIREGOBRÁCH1922 (Jan 11, 2011)

Very interesting. Great reads. Thank you.


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## buffalo61 (Jan 11, 2011)

Ravage said:


> Rotation with MarSOC or the Fleet Recon/Force Recon ?
> I'm really confused here....



A tour for a team guy at MARSOC is 5 years, where as a Recon/Force Recon Marine's tour at either Bn or Force is 3 years.  After a tour at MARSOC, they get rotated back to the "fleet" or Big Green Marine Corps.


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## Teufel (Jan 11, 2011)

This is not entirely accurate.  If a Marine goes to MARSOC he is not eligible for orders out of MARSOC for 5 years.  Recon Marines come up for orders like everyone else in the Marine Corps except that they are exempt from having to go to recruiting and the drill field.  Most Recon Marines will stay in the fleet for the bulk of their careers.  When they leave the fleet, they normally go to one of the school houses to be an instructor such as BRC, RSLC, MFF, dive school, etc.  My platoon sergeant went to his first B billet as a GySgt with 14 years in service.  He spent the rest of his career at a Force Reconnaissance company or Recon Battalion.


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## buffalo61 (Jan 11, 2011)

Thank you sir for clarifying that.  I figured that Recon Marines would stay in the Recon community for a majority of their enlistment.  What about the officer side though?  How does it work for Recon and MARSOC?


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## Teufel (Jan 12, 2011)

Recon Marines have no choice, their MOS is 0321 so they can only be assigned to a reconnaissance or MARSOC unit.  Even the b billets are coded for an 0321 for the most part.  Most officers will do one tour through recon or MARSOC.  Some officers will return but a lot of guys get out (of the Marine Corps) after one tour because they don't want to rotate back to the grunts.  All the active duty reconnaissance battalion and Force Reconnaissance company commanders right now are officers who have done multiple rotations through the reconnaissance community.  All officers, both MARSOC and reconnaissance officers, have to go back to the FMF and do time in a victor unit before coming back.  While there is an initiative at the Pentagon to grant secondary MOSes to reconnaissance and MARSOC trained officers but there is nothing in the works for a primary MOS.


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## Ravage (Jan 12, 2011)

Isn't the 5 years rotation kinda wasted potential? From what I've read (at least from You guys) that when you get into SOF, you can stay as long as you can keep up with the rest of the pack.
I'm aware that isn't the same for O's, but enlisted (especially NCOs)....I thought they can stay.
I really don't understand why they do this. Then again, enlisted in the 160th  have the same thing.


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## SCCO_Marine (Jan 12, 2011)

Former MarSOC Commanding General MajGen Robeson on competing MEU(SOC)/CentCOM Taskings; fr/Defense Media Network:


> The change came as the MSOCs grew in importance to the success of the  counterinsurgency (COIN) mission in Southwest Asia – even at the  expense the MEUs. Even though the MSOCs were deploying with the MEUs,  they were under the operational and tactical control of the theater  Special Operations Command. As the MEU sailed into Central Command’s  (CENTCOM’s) area of responsibility, the Special Operations  Command-Central Command (SOCCENT) wanted the MSOC pulled off the ship  for assignment to Afghanistan. But leaving them afloat to and from the  region created about a three-month gap between MSOCs on the ground in  Afghanistan.
> 
> “SOCOM needed two MSOCs heel-to-toe, without a 90-day gap, so they  could have two MSOCs in Afghanistan at all times, doing different  missions in different parts of the country,” Robeson said. In January  2009, the secretary of defense approved transporting the MSOCs directly  to Afghanistan by air rather than by ship with the MEUs.
> 
> “That was a fairly major dynamic because SOCOM needs that capability  in Afghanistan, but the Marine Corps at the same time was being tasked  with providing a MEUSOC for X number of days to PACOM [Pacific Command]  off the West Coast and EUCOM [European Command] and AFRICOM [African  Command] coming off the East Coast. So meeting the CENTCOM requirement  in Afghanistan meant a reduction in what the other COCOMs [combatant  commands] had requested and the commandant of the Marine Corps had been  tasked with providing.”


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## Salt USMC (Jan 16, 2011)

Great post sir.  Also, the pics in your profile are worth a chuckle or two.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 19, 2011)

Ravage said:


> Isn't the 5 years rotation kinda wasted potential? From what I've read (at least from You guys) that when you get into SOF, you can stay as long as you can keep up with the rest of the pack.
> I'm aware that isn't the same for O's, but enlisted (especially NCOs)....I thought they can stay.
> I really don't understand why they do this. Then again, enlisted in the 160th  have the same thing.



Our Marines at JSOC were assigned for five years as well.  Pretty good continuity for the organization.


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## money5555 (Apr 7, 2011)

As an outsider it seems like such a waste of great resources.  I guess its like any big corporation.  Everyone has an opinion as to where they should go.  Ultimately you just hope they deploy these guys to maximize their capabilities.

Do Army Special Forces and Navy Seals feel like MarSOC and Recon is just an overlap of what they can already do or do they feel like they are a good addition to the SpecOps community? (I know Recon isn't officially SpecOps they are SpecOps Capable but from what I understand most of the military perceived them as the SpecOps wing of the Marines until they formed MarSOC.)

My apologies if this question has its own thread already.  I couldn't find it when I did a search.


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## SkrewzLoose (Apr 8, 2011)

money5555 said:


> As an outsider it seems like such a waste of great resources. I guess its like any big corporation. Everyone has an opinion as to where they should go. Ultimately you just hope they deploy these guys to maximize their capabilities.
> 
> Do Army Special Forces and Navy Seals feel like MarSOC and Recon is just an overlap of what they can already do or do they feel like they are a good addition to the SpecOps community? (I know Recon isn't officially SpecOps they are SpecOps Capable but from what I understand most of the military perceived them as the SpecOps wing of the Marines until they formed MarSOC.)
> 
> My apologies if this question has its own thread already. I couldn't find it when I did a search.



I'm not a BTDT guy, mod or admin.  However, you might want to capitalize the last 3 letters of SEAL when you use it...


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## Boon (Apr 8, 2011)

money5555 said:


> Do Army Special Forces and Navy Seals feel like MarSOC and Recon is just an overlap of what they can already do or do they feel like they are a good addition to the SpecOps community? (I know Recon isn't officially SpecOps they are SpecOps Capable but from what I understand most of the military perceived them as the SpecOps wing of the Marines until they formed MarSOC.)



The world is a big place and the SOF community is very small.


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## TJT0321 (Apr 8, 2011)

money5555 said:


> Do Army Special Forces and Navy Seals feel like MarSOC and Recon is just an overlap of what they can already do or do they feel like they are a good addition to the SpecOps community? (I know Recon isn't officially SpecOps they are SpecOps Capable but from what I understand most of the military perceived them as the SpecOps wing of the Marines until they formed MarSOC.)



I think this quote answers your question:

"Today, MARSOC is the  newest and smallest kid on the block. The 2,618 Marines, sailors, and  civilians make up just five percent of the total SOCOM force, which  includes Army, Air Force and Navy special warfare forces. Despite this,  MARSOC conducted 19 percent of the special ops combat missions around  the world last year," Burgett said


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## TJT0321 (Apr 8, 2011)

Ravage said:


> Isn't the 5 years rotation kinda wasted potential? From what I've read (at least from You guys) that when you get into SOF, you can stay as long as you can keep up with the rest of the pack.
> I'm aware that isn't the same for O's, but enlisted (especially NCOs)....I thought they can stay.
> I really don't understand why they do this. Then again, enlisted in the 160th  have the same thing.



The five year rotations are gone now that the 0372 career designation MOS is in effect. Current CSO's have to put in for a lat move to the new MOS which will go into effect this October.


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## money5555 (Apr 8, 2011)

SkrewzLoose said:


> I'm not a BTDT guy, mod or admin. However, you might want to capitalize the last 3 letters of SEAL when you use it...



Sorry about that.  No disrespect meant it was just a typing error.  I'll make sure I don't make that mistake again.


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## money5555 (Apr 8, 2011)

TJT0321 said:


> I think this quote answers your question:
> 
> "Today, MARSOC is the newest and smallest kid on the block. The 2,618 Marines, sailors, and civilians make up just five percent of the total SOCOM force, which includes Army, Air Force and Navy special warfare forces. Despite this, MARSOC conducted 19 percent of the special ops combat missions around the world last year," Burgett said



Wow, that's amazing when you think about it.  They must either be really good or someone pulling the strings favors MarSOC over the other units.  I'm assuming it's because they are really good.

Do Recon Marines feel like it is a natural progression to go to MarSOC or is the mission capabilities so different that the distinction between Recon and MarSOC is always going to be there?  Furthermore, would that same question apply to Army Rangers moving on to Special Forces?  Not that Recon or Rangers is a stepping stone for anyone.  It's an honer in itself to be a Ranger or Recon but I'm wondering if the skills you aquire there make you a natural candidate for MarSOC or SF?


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## TJT0321 (Apr 9, 2011)

Recon guys are being sent through the MARSOC training pipeline the same as anyone else, which tends to turn a lot of guys off on the prospect of moving over. We have a hard enough time retaining recon guys after 4 years because of the way the Corps operates, so enticing them to reenlist and go through another training pipeline is going to be a real challenge.

My guess is that most of the guys that decide to stay will reenlist into one of the Force Companies and follow the 0321 career progression.


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## Teufel (Apr 9, 2011)

You have to understand that while Marine Reconnaissance and MARSOC share a common history and similar skill sets, they are two different animals that are growing farther and farther apart.  Marine Reconnaissance focuses on, you guessed it, reconnaissance while MARSOC is starting to focus more on mentoring and partnering.  PP&O is anticipating that 100 0321 NCOs and SNCOs will come back to the 0321 community if given the option.  A significant number, unfortunately will probably just get out.


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## money5555 (Apr 9, 2011)

Teufel said:


> You have to understand that while Marine Reconnaissance and MARSOC share a common history and similar skill sets, they are two different animals that are growing farther and farther apart. Marine Reconnaissance focuses on, you guessed it, reconnaissance while MARSOC is starting to focus more on mentoring and partnering. PP&O is anticipating that 100 0321 NCOs and SNCOs will come back to the 0321 community if given the option. A significant number, unfortunately will probably just get out.



You think that's the reason why the Corps was so hesitant to start MarSOC in the first place?  I mean aside from the obvious relinqueshing of total control over them because they are now controlled by SOCOM.

Here's another question: MarSOC is under the control of SOCOM right?  Does this mean that JSOC also has them as a resource?  Am I confusing SOCOM and JSOC?


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## money5555 (Apr 9, 2011)

TJT0321 said:


> Recon guys are being sent through the MARSOC training pipeline the same as anyone else, which tends to turn a lot of guys off on the prospect of moving over. We have a hard enough time retaining recon guys after 4 years because of the way the Corps operates, so enticing them to reenlist and go through another training pipeline is going to be a real challenge.
> 
> My guess is that most of the guys that decide to stay will reenlist into one of the Force Companies and follow the 0321 career progression.



When you say "the same as everyone else" do you mean the entire Marine Corps?  Like guys in MEU or the rest of the Corps can also go through MarSOC Indoc or whatever they call it now?


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## Teufel (Apr 10, 2011)

MARSOC is open to anyone in the Marine Corps.  Well any male who is up for orders.  I won't get into JSOC.  The Marine Corps is a small organization and it is hurting us to give up so many qualified Marines and not have operational control over them.  There is a MARSOC regiment, which doesn't sound like a lot but consider that we only have 7 active duty infantry regiments in the Marine Corps.  That's why the Marine Corps resisted SOCOM.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 10, 2011)

money5555 said:


> You think that's the reason why the Corps was so hesitant to start MarSOC in the first place?  I mean aside from the obvious relinqueshing of total control over them because they are now controlled by SOCOM.
> 
> Here's another question: MarSOC is under the control of SOCOM right?  Does this mean that JSOC also has them as a resource?  Am I confusing SOCOM and JSOC?



JSOC is subordinate to SOCOM, and JSOC's mission is joint SOF training and doctrine.


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