# Integrated LBE and Full Body Harness?



## A2-9 (Jun 4, 2013)

Folks;

My unit is recently had a change of operating procedures, we're now acquiring dedicated air elements positioned at our base.

Our utility uniforms are changing with one piece suits and a full body harness is becoming mandatory. Thing is, putting on  a suit, a harness, a vest and some mission specific gear is looking like a nightmare. Furthermore, we are not allowed to use old stuff, but can buy our own gear.

To the point, does anybody know a good "thing" that integrates a full body harness and minimal LBE capability?

Thanks in advance.


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## 0699 (Jun 4, 2013)

This question makes no sense.  You aren't in the military; what "unit" are you talking about?


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 4, 2013)

SAR unit.

I don't know of any at all, let alone would think any combined would honestly be worth a shit.


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## 0699 (Jun 4, 2013)

Ranger Psych said:


> SAR unit.
> 
> I don't know of any at all, let alone would think any combined would honestly be worth a shit.


 
So he's looking for some kind of level 2 climbing harness that also has MOLLE clips? I saw the part about SAR, but the original question still doesn't make sense.

Maybe I'm the idiot...


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 4, 2013)

He needs a full body harness for climbing/rappelling/aerial extraction-insertion. Apparently dressing up in a flight suit or whatnot, then a harness, then a vest, then a pack, is too much of a bitch or something.


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## 0699 (Jun 4, 2013)

Ranger Psych said:


> He needs a full body harness for climbing/rappelling/aerial extraction-insertion. Apparently *dressing up in a flight suit or whatnot, then a harness, then a vest, then a pack*, is too much of a bitch or something.


 
Hell, sounds like last Thursday... :-"


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## 0699 (Jun 4, 2013)

Ranger Psych said:


> He needs a full body harness for climbing/rappelling/aerial extraction-insertion. Apparently dressing up in a flight suit or whatnot, then a harness, then a vest, then a pack, is too much of a bitch or something.


 
OP: If my smarter brother is correct in his above post, I would HIGHLY discourage you from trying to put too much on one piece of kit, especially if it's for life safety.  Better to have a lightweight class 3 with an attachable chest harness to go class 2 that you can put on when needed.  It doesn't take too long to dress out with a kit like this, but if you're walking around in it, it's just going to get fucked up and fail when you most need it.

I'd like to hear more about your SAR unit.  Do you have a website?  Links?  What do you mean by "dedicated air elements positioned at our base"?  That sounds pretty high-speed...


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## Mac_NZ (Jun 4, 2013)

There was some custom rigs made up back when x SF med rode a Velociraptor onto the field at Gettysburg that integrated an LBE with a STABO rig.

Yates is the only company I can think of who will work with you to make something like that again.  IIRC you need a master rigger to make harnesses.  CTOMs makes a modular belt that you can rappel with.


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## x SF med (Jun 4, 2013)

Mac_NZ said:


> There was some custom rigs made up back when x SF med rode a Velociraptor onto the field at Gettysburg that integrated an LBE with a STABO rig.
> 
> Yates is the only company I can think of who will work with you to make something like that again. IIRC you need a master rigger to make harnesses. CTOMs makes a modular belt that you can rappel with.


 
Wrong again you sheepshagging wanker of large proportion...we rode pterydactyls and wore STABO rigs above the field at Gethsemane when Jesus was murdered...  and lovely horses onto Gettysburg, no air assets due to Wx and those friggin big ass cannon and mortars....

just tie off a swiss seat...  it works and can be modified as an over the shoulder if tied properly.  not comfy, but workable.


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## A2-9 (Jun 4, 2013)

Mac_NZ said:


> that integrated an LBE with a STABO rig.


 
Thanks mate, this STABO is the thing I was trying to describe. A few questions on that;
What is a SPIE rig exactly?
Can I rappel with a SPIE or STABO rig, with a carabiner and a belay device, like a regular harness?
Can I use a regular belt and suspenders type LBE, chest rig or pilot survival vest with a SPIE/STABO rig?
Does a SPIE or STABO rig is  accessible with a official ID, off the shelf or custom made?



0699 said:


> I'd like to hear more about your SAR unit. Do you have a website? Links? What do you mean by "dedicated air elements positioned at our base"? That sounds pretty high-speed...


 
Should I post here or should I use PM?


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## Mac_NZ (Jun 4, 2013)

I haven't used STABO before so can't say.  We used to use 2 loops of 1" tubular tape to make a body harness and I've done plenty of rappels and lifts wearing a vest and pack with that.


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 5, 2013)

If you're doing SAR, no reason to not post it here, military SAR for the most part is in the open (queue all the high fucking speed PJ's saving US Servicemember and Citizen asses worldwide 24./7)  and civilian SAR needs a larger portion of the press to be able to secure funding, people knowing it's out there, etc.

If'n I end up doing a career move I am currently in the hard contemplation phase of, I will most likely end up having SAR as one of my tasks simply due to my field experience w/ finding people that didn't care to be found   Less bitching will occur because it's civvies being civvies, and I'll most likely be an asset that is airborne or otherwise on wheeled transpo. Less walking = more morale


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## policemedic (Jun 5, 2013)

Combine this with the vest and leg harness that you like best.  As my mate from NZ mentioned,CTOMS makes good belts and leg harnesses. Not surprisingly, this is also a CTOMS product. 

http://www.ctoms.ca/products/turtles-harness?cat=27


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## 0699 (Jun 5, 2013)

Heruamarth said:


> Thanks mate, this STABO is the thing I was trying to describe. A few questions on that;
> What is a SPIE rig exactly?
> Can I rappel with a SPIE or STABO rig, with a carabiner and a belay device, like a regular harness?
> Can I use a regular belt and suspenders type LBE, chest rig or pilot survival vest with a SPIE/STABO rig?
> Does a SPIE or STABO rig is accessible with a official ID, off the shelf or custom made?


 
I would HIGHLY recommend against using/purchasing any kit you have not been trained on. Come to think of it, I'm amazed that any SAR organization would have you purchase/use your own kit. Things like liability, commonality of use, training, all come to mind. Also, again, I would HIGHLY recommend against traipsing around in your climb harness, as it WILL get fucked up and fail when you need it. Modern harnesses take only a few minutes to don; keeping it in your pack will keep it safe and ready for use.



> Should I post here or should I use PM?


 
Post here, unless it's classified. Sounds like others would like to know more too...


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## A2-9 (Jun 5, 2013)

Guys, thanks for all replies for starters.



0699 said:


> I would HIGHLY recommend against using/purchasing any kit you have not been trained on. Come to think of it, I'm amazed that any SAR organization would have you purchase/use your own kit. Things like liability, commonality of use, training, all come to mind. Also, again, I would HIGHLY recommend against traipsing around in your climb harness, as it WILL get fucked up and fail when you need it. Modern harnesses take only a few minutes to don; keeping it in your pack will keep it safe and ready for use.


 
Thanks for warning, of course I will not use any piece of kit that I'm not trained on. I'm asking, so that I can purchase, train, experiment and decide for myself.

About usage, we're already issued and using Petzl climbing equipment almost exclusively, save a few specific items, so no worries there. Why I'm allowed to go ahead and try something new, is because of this transition period, and when things finally get moving, we want to have our own opinions in addition to logistics guys.

For the most time, I'm advocating keeping gear to a minimum, and storing them in a protective and accessible fashion. But, this air unit thing is bugging me for a while, because our higher ups are planning to use them for rapid extractions, I'm looking ways to integrate a full body harness that can be equipped during entire mission, if the need arises.

I do two day hikes in nearby canyons, where there are lots of caves, small, rapid waterfalls, some rock climbing and regular hiking. I tend to keep my harness on all the time, and they seem to held up really well. I reckon a regular harness can survive a year being used in a helicopter. Does anybody know any CSAR guys? They usually use hoist capable helos, do they work with their harness all the time, or don when needed? What d'ya think?

About my team; regular civil defence unit, nothing fancy; seperate departments focused on heavy rescue, technical/mountain rescue, dog/equipment search, CBRN, also education, public relations, logistics and tech support departments, several independent units within each department.

In a reorganisation effort, we, technical/mountain rescue unit are getting some light rescue equipment, jaws of life, etc. some EMTs and paramedics are joining us, and four helos will be positioned on our base. I'm not sure about details, but from what I'm heard, they are planned to be bad weather capable, FLIR and winch equipped, twin engine, medium utility helicopters. Ministry of Health have been operating EC-145 and AW109's for some time, but we have some of ex-army aviation pilots and techs, and I heard they are pushing for "Sikorsky Aircraft", to my knowledge, it can be either S-70 or S-76, but I'm not sure.


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## 0699 (Jun 5, 2013)

Heruamarth said:


> Guys, thanks for all replies for starters.
> 
> 
> 
> *I do two day hikes in nearby canyons*, where there are lots of caves, small, rapid waterfalls, some rock climbing and regular hiking. *I tend to keep my harness on all the time*, and they seem to held up really well. *I reckon a regular harness can survive a year being used in a helicopter*. Does anybody know any CSAR guys? They usually use hoist capable helos, do they work with their harness all the time, or don when needed? What d'ya think?


 
Then it sounds like you're already an expert.

Good luck.  Stay safe.


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## policemedic (Jun 5, 2013)

What country are you in and is this a volunteer SAR unit?


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## A2-9 (Jun 6, 2013)

0699 said:


> Then it sounds like you're already an expert.
> 
> Good luck. Stay safe.


 
I have some experience, but I can't say I'm an expert, I am all ears for your advice.  Thanks for good wishes. 



policemedic said:


> What country are you in and is this a volunteer SAR unit?


 
Country is Turkey. Civil Defence is a full time, govt. organisation, my 20 man team is part time volunteers.


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## Crusader74 (Jun 6, 2013)

This could work well.. Boom!


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## Muppet (Jun 7, 2013)

Nice cross thread points my brother. Well played.

F.M.


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## amlove21 (Jun 8, 2013)

OK- we are going to call an all stop, real quick. 

Heruamarth , visit the ROCO Rescue equipment site. Items of note would be the ISH Harness (molle compatible modular belt/harness meant for civilian rescue and confined space.) Poke around there, I guarantee they have everything you need. These guys do a majority of our confined space and tech rescue. 



Heruamarth said:


> To the point, does anybody know a good "thing" that integrates a full body harness and minimal LBE capability?


Its on the ROCO site. 



Mac_NZ said:


> There was some custom rigs made up back when x SF med rode a Velociraptor onto the field at Gettysburg that integrated an LBE with a STABO rig.


 
LOL, however, English is his second language, he didn't get the troll. And Yates is 2nd grade equip, if you ask me. Seen a lot of it fail. 



0699 said:


> Come to think of it, I'm amazed that any SAR organization would have you purchase/use your own kit. .


 
You would be shocked. OSHA is an American thing, my friend. Some of the countries' SAR programs are- interesting. 



Heruamarth said:


> Guys, thanks for all replies for starters.
> *Thanks for warning, of course I will not use any piece of kit that I'm not trained on.*


 
Say it again, with me...



Heruamarth said:


> I reckon a regular harness can survive a year being used in a helicopter. Does anybody know any CSAR guys? They usually use hoist capable helos, do they work with their harness all the time, or don when needed? What d'ya think?


No, no, no no no no NONONNONONONNNOOOOO. You will be in/out/in/out of a helo, sitting on the harness, which it was never intended to do. The wear from the floor, the stress on the harness, the fuel, saltwater, rock, etc. degrades the harness pretty quickly. A year of light use hiking is not the same as a bunch of helo flights. And if you're on the helo, you have a harness available, sometimes not on. I have a modular one that I can attach the leg straps to the cobra-buckled belt so I dont have to wear the leg straps the whole time. Know where I got it? The ROCO site. 



Heruamarth said:


> In a reorganisation effort, we, technical/mountain rescue unit are getting some light rescue equipment, jaws of life, etc. some EMTs and paramedics are joining us, and four helos will be positioned on our base. I'm not sure about details, but from what I'm heard, they are planned to be bad weather capable, FLIR and winch equipped, twin engine, medium utility helicopters. Ministry of Health have been operating EC-145 and AW109's for some time, but we have some of ex-army aviation pilots and techs, and I heard they are pushing for "Sikorsky Aircraft", to my knowledge, it can be either S-70 or S-76, but I'm not sure.


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## A2-9 (Jun 9, 2013)

amlove21 said:


> I have a modular one that I can attach the leg straps to the cobra-buckled belt so I dont have to wear the leg straps the whole time.


 
Man, that is the kind of thing I was looking for, thanks a lot.
Is it okay to use a chest harness always on and attach leg straps to it when needed, in the kind of setting I'm decribed?



amlove21 said:


>


 
What is bugging you? 



amlove21 said:


> English is his second language, he didn't get the troll.


 
I _did_ get it, didn't wanted to roll along. :-"


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 9, 2013)

Amlove, I was seriously hoping you or one of the other PJ's would pipe in.... since this is your bread and butter territory, basically.

*Heruamarth:  *

I'd say with how to rig that gear, EMPLOY it as the manufacturer says you should.. as far as what's worn to accomplish X task... I don't think there'd be any issues with just wearing X parts and having Y part(s) on hand for when you need them other than comfort... but don't try to do something it's not designed to do, or use less portions than it's designed to use for a specific task.

I'd venture to say you should look into the Hurst E-draulics for the heavy "hydraulics", they're lighter and more maneuverable than normal hydraulic tools, even with carrying spare batteries. Especially if you can get on-scene via hoist/rappell/whatever, then have extras just "speedballed" in a duffle bag with your extra gear you don't need to hump from your insertion point/LZ... ie, chainsaws to clear the LZ if they need to put down/you need them for access, or other heavy tools.


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## amlove21 (Jun 9, 2013)

Ranger Psych said:


> Amlove, I was seriously hoping you or one of the other PJ's would pipe in.... since this is your bread and butter territory, basically.
> .


sorry, it took me a while to get here. You could always tag me, or any of the other J's, if you think there is something for us to engage on. Ranger Psych



Heruamarth said:


> Man, that is the kind of thing I was looking for, thanks a lot.
> Is it okay to use a chest harness always on and attach leg straps to it when needed, in the kind of setting I'm decribed?


I am not a big chest harness guy. I like having a sit harness, because I have had the need to go completely upside down, sideways, and a bunch of different positions that I couldn't do if I had a chest harness on. Some situations call for a chest harness, but more situations call for no chest harness. Have it available, use as needed. 



Heruamarth said:


> What is bugging you?


 


That's a really, really robust CSAR capability. For it to be in the "planning stages" and the "rumor/I heard that..." stage means you guys are a solid 5 years away (guessing) of actually employing that capability. 

Just makes me wonder if you couldn't be spending your time doing something more useful- like trying to get your Paramedic, flight nurse, or other course to be a more valuable member of that future team. Just my two cents.


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