# PTSD/Suicide on Special Operations Forces members, doubts..



## EliasBR (Sep 21, 2012)

I was wondering about this matter, is any study that points out the rates of PTSD or even suicide on SOF members?

I don't know if there is any recent study about this, but does anyone know if conventional soldiers are more susceptible to acquire PTSD than special operations soldiers?

Aside of that, proportionally speaking, conventional soldiers suffers PTSD or commit suicide more than SOF soldiers?


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## AWP (Sep 21, 2012)

This is a very touchy subject and I would advise anyone who responds to tread lightly. I know of at least two on this board who were diagnosed with PTSD, one is SOF and the other is conventional. I'm trying to change my avatar, so let's keep any discussion calm.


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## RackMaster (Sep 21, 2012)

Having worked in both worlds and being diagnosed with PTSD, I'll give you some of my insight.  I have not seen any medical/mental health studies being done on specific branches of service, in any country.  It does not mean that it hasn't/isn't being done but I highly doubt anything to do with SOF will not be released for public consumption.

From what I've personally endured, witnessed and learned about PTSD and all related mental health diagnosis related to service; it is a crap shoot on who gets it.  It can onset right after trauma or 10-20-60 years later, it all depends.  So I don't think it matters on conventional or SOF, plus most SOF guys were conventional at one point. ;) 

EliasBR   Why are you asking?


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## reed11b (Sep 21, 2012)

I work at a Vet Center and my counseling team treats primarily PTSD. There is documentation that suggests that PTSD and suicide rates are statistically lower in SOF troops. My personal experience suggests that this is not true and that at least in the case of PTSD, it is only severely under reported.  
Reed


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## digrar (Sep 22, 2012)

I've lost two mates to PTSD related suicide from a SOF unit down here.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 22, 2012)

One big defining issue is the mental aspect, the stronger mind vs the not so strong minded. SOF is able to select individuals who are mentally tough and who have proven to be in that stronger mind category. The conventional side does not have that selection process to weed out weaker minded individuals. To put it very simply, SOF has psychologist that are trained to identify those characteristics common with people who commit suicide, who cannot take long term stress, etc.

The other aspect is as reed11B pointed out, most type A hard chargers are not going to seek help in the mental health arena. Even though the Army says it will not affect your career to seek mental help, it’s a bit of a different story when your duties are to run around with a shit ton of weapons and make split second decisions on who should live or die. The Army tends to want put you on light duty/no weapons profile when you are diagnosed with PTSD. So why would any soldier SOF or CF report problems, or seek mental help, if you know your career could very well be over b/c of it? The simple answer is they don’t and they won’t, it will take an issue coming up, or it will be leadership directed situation before most will cross that threshold.

I would like to see a study on PTSD & Suicide in support career fields vs combat arms career fields for SOF & CF. Based on what I saw at the WTB at FT Sam Houston, there were a lot more support types being treated for “PTSD” or put on the “black list” then there were combat arms tyoes.

By the way I am diagnosed with severe PTSD...


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## EliasBR (Sep 22, 2012)

RackMaster I just think it is a interesting subject to discuss about, on my part it's just a matter of curiosity since I'm by no means related to the military after all, but I know it's a subject that is getting more and more spotlight now that the GWOT is a little more than a decade-old.

My doubt has begun when I ask the same question in the commentary section of another SOF-related website (I don't know if I'm allowed to name the website, so I just won't name it), and I've got some interesting answers from guys who are former and current SOF members, and one of them said that as far as they know from PAs, articles, informations within SOCOM, is that SOF troops have a much lower rate of PTSD than soldiers on the conventional side, but the reasons are still unknown, some of them said the probable reasons for this result is  that SOF are generally older and more experienced than conventional soldiers (excluding the Rangers), SOF venues have mentally tough selection and this results in more mentally tough soldiers, etc. So, I thought it would be interesting to bring this question here since there is a lot of former and current SOF members and the format of discussion forum helps the flow of the discussion.

Thank you guys for some of the insight, I hope this topic keeps getting answers like yours. ;)


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## HOLLiS (Sep 22, 2012)

There are a lot of variables. What exacerbated the problem in the Viet-Nam war conflict was how it was decided that people would go into country and leave. Prior to that whole units would rotate in and rotate out. In the RVN was it was more individual.

Part of PTSD is that it needs to dealt with early after the incident. Having people around to help you put the event into perspective helps. In WWII, whole units would come home, families would join the troops, and pretty much people help to debrief each other on traumatic events.

Not all of us are the same in how we handle traumatic events, some are talkative, where as other may become silent about the event.

How it is initially dealt with has a lot to do whether or not the effects of PTSD is patterned in the person brain. Delaying that process only insures PTSD becomes part of the person's personality.

I am not sure if the mentally tough selection process is a defense in the issue of PTSD. Until one goes into combat, there are a lot of things that will become real for them. A lot of personal questions will be answered. Developing a cold, unattached attitude is a part of PTSD. Some may think it is a defense against PTSD.

The book may be old, but it may still help the families of those who serve in combat areas, _Recovering from the War, _by Patience Mason. Her husband wrote _Chicken Hawk. _The VA, had a video about her talking about this issue.

My POV, is that what we hear from the media and other sources do not reflect or come close to what PTSD is. IMHO, it is a part of surviving the combat experience. I tend to think Suicide is another issue to surviving the combat experience and it may or may not be a actual part of PTSD.

From a course on Suicide by the FBI, they stated that one a person reaches a point where they are helpless and hopeless, that suicide becomes a real possibility. (IIRC). There are aspects of PTSD that will/can add to a person sense of hopelessness and helplessness. Survivor quilt is one of them. When one has given up everything, there is nothing left to loose.  Also in combat a person will see a part of them that is horrifying for a normal person.  The ability to destory another human being and maybe even pleasure from that.   I think,  there can be a fear when one comes home that part of them could come out, and that they may harm a love one.   This maybe a part of why after returning from Viet-Nam there was a spike in suicides.   There were absolutely no help, no information......... nadda back then for the Vet.  How that may apply today, I don't know.   Combat can be a mind F....... on a major scale.

I believe being a cohesive unit has a lot to do with dealing with the trauma of combat and lessening the chances of PTSD. Burying the trauma only adds to the possibility of having PTSD.

Another Note: 20 years ago, when PTSD was become something most people have heard about, councilors at the VA mentioned that WWII and Korean vets where coming. Some people where about to bury it deep enough, where it took decades for it to rise to the surface.

Part of the human mind to survive, is to set something aside until it is safe to deal with it. A traumatic event can be set aside/buried until a safe time for the mind to place it into "perspective" or find balance. The problem, that usually does not happened. Kind of like burying a bottle of Kim Chi in your refrigerator for years. As it sets buried, it build up pressure.

Having friends/Brothers/Sisters that can share those traumatic events and discuss them is a big plus. Being a loner or isolated makes it much more difficult.


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## EliasBR (Sep 22, 2012)

Excellent points.

Aside from the mental toughness perspective, one think that I've read on Dick Couch's book "Sua Sponte" that I found very interesting was that he says  the Patriotism (which is one of the six aptitudes that apply variously to all SOF ground-combat components) is what returns them home mentally and morally intact ("the deep-seated belief that a warrior, in uniform in the service of his nation, has the moral authority to take human life"). What do you guys think about it? .. Please, keep talking about the mental toughness perspective too, this is getting very interesting.


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## HOLLiS (Sep 22, 2012)

EliasBR said:


> Excellent points.
> 
> Aside from the mental toughness perspective, one think that I've read on Dick Couch's book "Sua Sponte" that I found very interesting was that he says the Patriotism (which is one of the six aptitudes that apply variously to all SOF ground-combat components) is what returns them home mentally and morally intact ("the deep-seated belief that a warrior, in uniform in the service of his nation, has the moral authority to take human life"). What do you guys think about it? .. Please, keep talking about the mental toughness perspective too, this is getting very interesting.


 

I guess I would like to know who you are and why you are interested?


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## EliasBR (Sep 22, 2012)

HOLLiS said:


> I guess I would like to know who you are and why you are interested?


 
Here is my intro -> http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/threads/my-introduction.15310/

My interest comes from curiosity since there is no studies talking about PTSD on SOF members, if you guys want to keep talking about it, it would be great to hear from you since most of the members here have military backgrounds and for this reason I guess this is the right place to ask about it, if you don't want to keep talking about it, fine, I just thought it would not have a problem.


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## HOLLiS (Sep 22, 2012)

EliasBR said:


> Here is my intro -> http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/threads/my-introduction.15310/
> 
> My interest comes from curiosity since there is no studies talking about PTSD on SOF members, if you guys want to keep talking about it, it would be great to hear from you since most of the members here have military backgrounds and for this reason I guess this is the right place to ask about it, if you don't want to keep talking about it, fine, I just thought it would not have a problem.


 
My thoughts,   get naked in front of a bunch of people, have them probe you where ever.   Would there be a problem.   As a nation, we are coming to terms with mental issues.  Some how the common view is very negative and harmful to the person.    President Clinton placed over 130,000 vets on incompetency list to purchase firearms because of PTSD.    It violate all the rules of the psychiatric profession for incompetency but it still happened.   President Bush signed into law, a bill reversing that, but nothing was done. 

That is one part.

The other part is the media and movies in their dealing with PTSD.  

I would suggest,  reading about it, there is a lot out there.   Personally,  unless you been there it is none of your business.     I have over 40 years of experiences in this issue to know,  those who have not been there don't know, care to know and telling them is a complete waste of time.   It is one of those things, if you know, you know.  If you don't know, no one can explain it to you. 

You still have not explained it to me, why you are interested in PTSD.    Why should I get naked before you?


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## EliasBR (Sep 22, 2012)

HOLLiS said:


> My thoughts, get naked in front of a bunch of people, have them probe you where ever. Would there be a problem. As a nation, we are coming to terms with mental issues. Some how the common view is very negative and harmful to the person. President Clinton placed over 130,000 vets on incompetency list to purchase firearms because of PTSD. It violate all the rules of the psychiatric profession for incompetency but it still happened. President Bush signed into law, a bill reversing that, but nothing was done.
> 
> That is one part.
> 
> ...


 
I'm not telling you to tell me the effects of PTSD (I didn't even ask this), as I will not try to explain to you the effects of depression (which I have) because you won't understand it if you don't have it,  this doesn't mean people who don't have it are not allowed to talk about it. Since I opened this thread, my only purpose was to talk about the PTSD rates on SOF and make some correlation between it and the CF PTSD rates, *rates, not effects*.

 I just want to know if the rates of PTSD are lower on SOF and if the cause of it it's their mental toughness or any other cause, since what I admire in most of them (SOF members) is their mental toughness, even in my intro I say it "I think these men are kind of a special breed of human beings, and what I admire most about them is their mental toughness", again, I don't want to know the effects of PTSD, just if  SOF members have PTSD in a lower rate compared to their CF counterparts and the possible cause of this difference, since there are a lot in the know here, I guess it's the right place to ask.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 22, 2012)

Training, discipline, and primary group bonds are three of the things that make an effective group.  Where these things are strong, they can help fend off the physical and mental entropy inherent in combat operations.  My unscientific and unresearched opinion is that PTSD and suicides are in fact likely to be lower in SOF than in other units, because the three things I mentioned are typically higher in these units, which helps develop coping mechanisms that allow people to deal with issues maybe a little bit better than in some other units.  Many of the SOF types I know who are dealing with PTSD and/or mental health issues only started showing symptoms AFTER they left SOF units.


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## goon175 (Sep 22, 2012)

Don't we already have a quite lengthy and in-depth discussion on here regarding this topic?


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## LimaOscarSierraTango (Sep 22, 2012)

goon175 said:


> Don't we already have a quite lengthy and in-depth discussion on here regarding this topic?


 
There are a few in the Combat Medicine section.  A search of "PTSD" with the "Search Titles Only" option checked may have helped him with his curiosity... or not.  I haven't read through those threads, so I can't give a definite answer, but there are threads on this site regarding PTSD...

Elias, have you read those threads yet?


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## EliasBR (Sep 23, 2012)

LimaOscarSierraTango said:


> There are a few in the Combat Medicine section. A search of "PTSD" with the "Search Titles Only" option checked may have helped him with his curiosity... or not. I haven't read through those threads, so I can't give a definite answer, but there are threads on this site regarding PTSD...
> 
> Elias, have you read those threads yet?


 
Yes, none of them as far as I read is regarding this specific subject about PTSD on SOF members, anyway, thanks for the few guys who had the pacience to answer some of my questions.


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## AWP (Sep 23, 2012)

Elias, I'm leaving this thread open for now. While I don't believe you have a malicious intent, I think you may be too inquisitive for your own good on this topic. As you can see, it is a sensitive subject for some.

My advice to you, do with it as you will, is to sit back and let this thread develop. If 100 people post or no one posts, that's all well and good. I'm not attempting to stifle discussion, but this topic has, is, and will be an "open sore" for many. Issues of the brain, whatever they may be and whatever the cause, are delicate and as such some folks don't like to talk about them. In many cases they went years without help (and some still do), because of a variety of reasons; your first instinct is simply "No, not me. The doc is wrong, I'm fine."

I would sit back, let the thread develop, and in the meantime read the board...you'll be surprised at what you can learn about us and your fellow man.

Take care.


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## EliasBR (Sep 23, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> Elias, I'm leaving this thread open for now. While I don't believe you have a malicious intent, I think you may be too inquisitive for your own good on this topic. As you can see, it is a sensitive subject for some.
> 
> My advice to you, do with it as you will, is to sit back and let this thread develop. If 100 people post or no one posts, that's all well and good. I'm not attempting to stifle discussion, but this topic has, is, and will be an "open sore" for many. Issues of the brain, whatever they may be and whatever the cause, are delicate and as such some folks don't like to talk about them. In many cases they went years without help (and some still do), because of a variety of reasons; your first instinct is simply "No, not me. The doc is wrong, I'm fine."
> 
> ...


 
Yes sir, I figured out that is a sensitive topic after some heated answers, which I found surprising. And you are right, I have no malicious intent, I'm just a enthusiast of the SOF world, and as one, my intent was just the discussion and not by no means to provoke, and this subject was some sort of curiosity, I just didn't know that it would take some negative comments after a while.

Anyway, I got it man, thanks for the clarification.


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## Worldweaver (Oct 2, 2012)

EliasBR said:


> I just want to know if the rates of PTSD are lower on SOF and if the cause of it it's their mental toughness or any other cause, since what I admire in most of them (SOF members) is their mental toughness, even in my intro I say it "I think these men are kind of a special breed of human beings, and what I admire most about them is their mental toughness", again, I don't want to know the effects of PTSD, just if SOF members have PTSD in a lower rate compared to their CF counterparts and the possible cause of this difference, since there are a lot in the know here, I guess it's the right place to ask.


 
I would also avoid referring to men that suffer from PTSD as less mentally tough or mentally weak.


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## amlove21 (Oct 2, 2012)

Worldweaver said:


> I would also avoid referring to men that suffer from PTSD as less mentally tough or mentally weak.


Couldn't echo this enough. I have close friends that are struggling every day, and they are some of the strongest, toughest men I know. I think we knew what you were getting to, but that's a dangerous line and it bears repeating.


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## EliasBR (Oct 2, 2012)

Worldweaver said:


> I would also avoid referring to men that suffer from PTSD as less mentally tough or mentally weak.


 
It was a question (not a affirmative), since one member in this thread (who suffers from PTSD as he says) brought up this aspect, it was just a attempt to develop the discussion, it wasn't to become something problematic.


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## RackMaster (Oct 2, 2012)

That is part of and probably the major problem with the stigma behind PTSD and mental health in general. The thought that it is a "weakness", it's complete BS but attributes to a lot of guys still hiding or not accepting the truth.

Oh and if a Veteran admits he/she has PTSD, I wouldn't question it. ;)


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## EliasBR (Oct 2, 2012)

I've already asked for a particular moderator to delete the thread since it was not received well from the community here, it's not that the subject is irrelevant, it's that the subject is a bit (or a lot) sensitive and some people didn't get what I was asking in the beginning of the topic.

My intentions were 100% good when I was asking it, and it would be stupid to provoke the group when I admire these warriors, I just hope that you guys understand it.


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## RackMaster (Oct 2, 2012)

It is a sensitive subject to discuss but it is a subject that NEEDS to be discussed.  It's the only way for it to be accepted as an injury and to remove the stigma.  Education is the only way. 

So far this thread has not gone out of control, I'm keeping it open.  Just be careful how you write things.


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## EliasBR (Oct 2, 2012)

RackMaster said:


> It is a sensitive subject to discuss but it is a subject that NEEDS to be discussed. It's the only way for it to be accepted as an injury and to remove the stigma. Education is the only way.
> 
> So far this thread has not gone out of control, I'm keeping it open. Just be careful how you write things.


 
Ok sir, so let's get back to the main question in the topic:




> I don't know if there is any recent study about this, but does anyone know if conventional soldiers are more susceptible to acquire PTSD than special operations soldiers?
> 
> Aside of that, proportionally speaking, conventional soldiers suffers PTSD or commit suicide more than SOF soldiers?


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## RackMaster (Oct 2, 2012)

I honestly don't think there is a difference between conventional and SOF and since only recently has comprehensive studies have started; we won't know the real answer for decades. Onset of PTSD is not easily identifiable and varies person to person.


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## HOLLiS (Oct 2, 2012)

EliasBR said:


> I've already asked for a particular moderator to delete the thread since it was not received well from the community here, it's not that the subject is irrelevant, it's that the subject is a bit (or a lot) sensitive and some people didn't get what I was asking in the beginning of the topic.
> 
> My intentions were 100% good when I was asking it, and it would be stupid to provoke the group when I admire these warriors, I just hope that you guys understand it.


 

If "some people didn't get what I (you were) was asking in the beginning of the topic",  maybe you need to explain it better.    I may be thick as a brick,  I do not understand what "My intentions were 100% good"  means.    What intentions?    Why?   <-- good is not a descriptor.   Good for you may mean bad for me.   Evasiveness is provoking.


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## EliasBR (Oct 2, 2012)

HOLLiS said:


> If "some people didn't get what I (you were) was asking in the beginning of the topic", maybe you need to explain it better. I may be thick as a brick, I do not understand what "My intentions were 100% good" means. What intentions? Why? <-- good is not a descriptor. Good for you may mean bad for me. Evasiveness is provoking.


 
Or maybe you need to reread it, since some people got what I was asking it the first time. Bad intentions = Open the topic to provoke; good intentions = open the topic to develop a healthy discussion with the purpose of obtaining information. Why = this a discussion forum to talk about matters involving SOF. I'm not evasive, I just don't know what answer you want to read.

Take care.


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## EliasBR (Oct 2, 2012)

RackMaster said:


> I honestly don't think there is a difference between conventional and SOF and since only recently has comprehensive studies have started; we won't know the real answer for decades. Onset of PTSD is not easily identifiable and varies person to person.


 
Thanks for the answer sir.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 2, 2012)

EliasBR said:


> Or maybe you need to reread it, since some people got what I was asking it the first time. Bad intentions = Open the topic to provoke; good intentions = open the topic to develop a healthy discussion with the purpose of obtaining information. Why = this a discussion forum to talk about matters involving SOF. I'm not evasive, I just don't know what answer you want to read.
> 
> Take care.


 
You need to rethink how you are posting on this forum. You say you have "respect for these warriors" but yet you are being what I would consider rude to one of our older members who is without a doubt the exact type of warrior you claim to respect.

You have been given some pretty good advice in this thread on how to proceed with your “personal interest questions” but yet you are failing to put two & two together here. Asking to have a thread locked after stirring the pot and then making posts like the one above to a senior member here, is by far not an attempt to have peaceful conversation about a very touchy topic.

I will leave you with this last little tid-bit, you are a new kid here, nobody knows you and nobody really cares what you think or otherwise have interest in. Some of us will entertain your questions and others will not, but when you start making posts that come off as rude, you can bet you will become very unwelcome here, very quick.


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## AWP (Oct 2, 2012)

EliasBR said:


> Or maybe you need to reread it, since some people got what I was asking it the first time.


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## RackMaster (Oct 2, 2012)

EliasBR Changed my mind, you obviously did not understand or take in anything that has been said to you.  I suggest you take what JAB previously posted seriously.  Your posts show your obvious immaturity and general lack of understanding when it comes to mental health and PTSD.   I highly suggest you leave this topic alone, if you want to learn about it; there are plenty of resources out there.  Use the fancy thing called google and sort yourself out.  Consider this a final warning.

THREAD CLOSED.


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## RackMaster (Oct 2, 2012)

EliasBR, against my better judgment I'm opening this up again.  Please explain your question and your standing on it (with justification).

If ANYONE makes this personal or addresses any other member in an unprofessional/inappropriate manner; you get a free vacation.


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## pardus (Oct 2, 2012)

PTSD is a hugely complicated and emotional subject as we can all see. It is something we simply don't know enough about and won't for years to come.



Worldweaver said:


> I would also avoid referring to men that suffer from PTSD as less mentally tough or mentally weak.


 
I agree with you 100% in this, for some people. However, Ive also seen people talk themselves into PTSD or supposed PTSD,
I'll quote one of these people, as heard before we arrived in theater  "I wonder how bad my PTSD is going to be after this". 
I struggle to say these people have normal mental robustness. These are people that would get PTSD if they went to war or stayed home on the couch. We all have our limits and lines in the sand, what shock and horrify some, others would shrug off or think insignificant.

Boiled down, my thoughts currently are that some people are mentally weak and get PTSD for things most wouldn't, some are normal (or strong) that experience traumatic experiences that simply overwhelm them.   

Not everyone can run a marathon or bench press 300lb, they are weaker than those that can. That's not a bad thing (I can't do either), humans are just different with different abilities.

Just my .o2c


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## LOOON (Oct 2, 2012)

Ill do my best to explain my view on PTSD from my experience of dealing with it for over 20+ years.

I started developing or noticing something wasn't "right" just before I got out. And then after I got out, I was having a helluva time just dealing with simple things in life. I sought therapy with a civilian mental health clinic. It didn't take long before they diagnosed me with PTSD. This was way before the VA or the military or the Fed Govt even recognized it as an issue or illness/disability.

I will tell you, that for fact, different people will react differently from each other after a "traumatic" event. Meaning it will effect each person in a different way. Some people it will hardly affect at all, while the next person can get really fucked up from it. YOU NEVER KNOW.

Then after I got out and was living my life, I was involved in a couple of other "traumatic" events. Each event in my life wasn't really "bad" by themselves, but with each subsequent one, my symptoms got worse and compounded over time.

Even after the VA finally recognized it as a condition, I didn't pursue it as part of my disability until just a few years ago, as I was just getting worse and worse.

Aknowledging you have a problem is the hardest, first step one can take. There is no "cure". But you can learn how to live your life around it and how to live with it so it doesn't destroy your life or hurt the one's you love.

I have also learned through the years, that it has to be one of the most fraudulantly abused conditions in the VA.

It doesn't make a person "weak" if they can't sleep do to nightmares from a traumatic event. "weak" is a bs term to describe anyone with PTSD IMHO. The "weak" ones are the one's that ignore it and choose to let it destroy their lives and the ones around them. Even with PTSD, YOU HAVE A CHOICE to make your situation better.


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## TLDR20 (Oct 2, 2012)

The above post is the reason this thread was re-opened.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 2, 2012)

I sincerely hope that this thread can stay on track and not get shut down over pettiness or someone's hurt feelings.  I'm personally very interested in this subject, since it is not something that affected me or anyone I know well.

I think JAB might have been onto something with one of his earlier posts.  Inasmuch as we can admit it when someone is stronger physically or mentally than we are, I don't think it's an insult to suggest that some people may be psychologically stronger than others.  It doesn't mean those others are psychologically "weak" or "inferior," just that others are stronger in that particular area.  I think the evidence for this is that two men can be in the exact same set of situations for the exact same period of time, yet one of them will develop PTSD and the other won't.  What is the difference?  Genes?  The way they were raised?  Differing levels of psychologocal stamina?  I'm inclined to believe it might be all three, but if I had to pick one, it would be the latter.  Again, it doesn't mean one of the two was "weak," it means that the other is "stronger" somehow.


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## HOLLiS (Oct 2, 2012)

Probably nothing to do with what we all think.   Nothing about strength or weakness,  how we were raised,  etc....... there are a lot of things in life where the best answer is, "I don't know."  

Too many variables that can mask this issue.   What may seem strong is really weak, if one wants to use those terms.   Like going into a battle, who gets hit, who gets KIA, who does not get a scratch when everyone else does.   It may be nice, or maybe it is a human need to know and to especially to know be for hand.  The toughest person may turn into a weak mouse at the first crack of gun fire, the person that everyone labeled a weak mouse, stands up to be the toughest person in the company........ why?  Isn't that something we want to know, but will never know why.  

PTSD as it was explained to me is when normal people are exposed to non-normal traumatic event (something like that).     It becomes a issue later,  because it has not been dealt with earlier.    Right there is two variables,   dealing with it, how ever one does closer to event can prevent or diminish the effects on the person later.   Trying to deny what happen, being strong and ignoring what has happen and how it effected you,  denial, etc............. will only make the situation more difficult later.   It is the later, where the "P" comes into the meaning of the term,  "Post".   

The trauma needs to be dealt with sooner than later, that is what PTSD is about.   Dealing with it later it becomes Post Traumatic Stress disorder.


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## reed11b (Oct 2, 2012)

LOOON said:


> Aknowledging you have a problem is the hardest, first step one can take. There is no "cure". But you can learn how to live your life around it and how to live with it so it doesn't destroy your life or hurt the one's you love.
> 
> I have also learned through the years, that it has to be one of the most fraudulantly abused conditions in the VA.
> 
> It doesn't make a person "weak" if they can't sleep do to nightmares from a traumatic event. "weak" is a bs term to describe anyone with PTSD IMHO. The "weak" ones are the one's that ignore it and choose to let it destroy their lives and the ones around them. Even with PTSD, YOU HAVE A CHOICE to make your situation better.


 
Awesome post, thank you LOOON. Working with recent OIF/OEF vets I don't completely agree that there is never a cure. Some of the guys that get help early on do see a complete extinguishing of symptoms. But it is good statement in that it shows that it is never to late to get help.
The other two paragraphs I quoted are 100% spot on. Again, thank you LOOON.
Reed
P.S. pardus the reason I disagreed with your post is that the individuals you described do NOT have PTSD, they have sandyvaginitus. This is a completely different dis-order caused by the lack of spine.


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## EliasBR (Oct 2, 2012)

Thanks for opening it again.

First of all, I want to explain the heated argument. I just answered that way because of his evasiveness argument, since I was being really sincere on why I was interested on this subject. I'm not immature to have hurt feelings for this little discussion, it happens, I just hope we can work this out and get past this episode, ok HOLLiS?

Well, I will explain the origin of my question, and I think this way it's going to get clear.. I always thought that the mental toughness of SOF members were a big differential when compared to the CF units (since I started to read about SOF),  because of the screening/selection process, and this way SOF members were less susceptible to get PTSD. As you see, it was just an assumption, then I read ''The forging of a Modern Ranger'' by Dick Couch, and what really intrigued me was his comment about Patriotism (''which is one of the six aptitudes that apply variously to all SOF ground-combat components''), when he says this was the reason why ground combatants returns home mentally and morally intact. As I was reading it I just got more interested on the subject and this question came to my mind, if there is a difference on the rates of PTSD on CF and SOF members, and IF there is, why? is this mental toughness? or any other cause?

The answers above are really satisfying as I'm learning a lot. 

Thanks guys.

I really hope there isn't hurt feelings here.


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## Worldweaver (Oct 2, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> I don't think it's an insult to suggest that some people may be psychologically stronger than others. It doesn't mean those others are psychologically "weak" or "inferior," just that others are stronger in that particular area. I think the evidence for this is that two men can be in the exact same set of situations for the exact same period of time, yet one of them will develop PTSD and the other won't. What is the difference? Genes? The way they were raised? Differing levels of psychologocal stamina? I'm inclined to believe it might be all three, but if I had to pick one, it would be the latter. Again, it doesn't mean one of the two was "weak," it means that the other is "stronger" somehow.


 
I believe it's because of individuals perception of events and not anything to do with being psychologically strong or weak.  If certain people are able to understand and cope with events through faith, friendship, or other healthy mechanisms then they are more likely to deal successfully with traumatic events.  Others may not be as successful with these coping mechanisms and exacerbate their stressors, or use alcohol or drugs to "help".  In my opinion that doesn't make people more or less psychologically "tough".  Obviously, in society, there is a spectrum from the emotionally resilient to the those more susceptible to stress or trauma, however, we aren't talking about some thumb sucker in his parents basement.  For the most part these are grown men who have encountered several stresses during Military service and would be on the emotionally resilient side of the spectrum.


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## HOLLiS (Oct 2, 2012)

reed11b said:


> P.S. pardus the reason I disagreed with your post is that the individuals you described do NOT have PTSD, they have sandyvaginitus. This is a completely different dis-order caused by the lack of spine.


 
I don't think it is a matter of agreement or disagreement.    As you grow older, your opinion will change, and change...........  Yes, there are those who exploit the program, for the sake of a decent discussion on this issue, I would say...... "Ignore them."    The "P" part is undefined,  when does it kick in,  how much will change over time?   All is a part of the Post part.   Talk to the counselors who have talked to vets who served 50 or more year ago and are finally starting to actually deal with something that happened more than 50 years ago.  

This is a personalized issued.   so disagree, agree,  but at least think about it and as Loon said, "Even with PTSD, YOU HAVE A CHOICE to make your situation better"


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## HOLLiS (Oct 2, 2012)

EliasBR said:


> I really hope there isn't hurt feelings here.


 

Crap, do you really have to post.......................... go away.

My feelings are not hurt,  I have had jungle rot worse than you.


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## EliasBR (Oct 2, 2012)

HOLLiS said:


> Crap, do you really have to post.......................... go away.
> 
> My feelings are not hurt, I have had jungle rot worse than you.


 
??

Maybe it's some of the language barrier, I didn't get your answer.


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## walra107 (Oct 3, 2012)

EliasBR said:


> ??
> 
> Maybe it's some of the language barrier, I didn't get your answer.


 
Elias, I think what they are trying to say is sit back and learn (as you say you are) from this thread. No disrespect intended to you (I'm not military yet, but I am family of multiple military veterans), but this is a touchy subject and just by reading the back and fourth from one to the next on this thread, I have learned much more than I thought I could. In short...let them continue what is now THEIR thread, with minimal to no interruption. Again, no disrespect just trying to clear the "barrier"...

To everyone else, If I have stepped out of my lane...My sincerest apologies, be gentle!


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## RackMaster (Oct 3, 2012)

EliasBR,  what is your civilian occupation or are you a student?  Is it related to the military in any way or medical, mental health? 

I think the that you need to focus on the basics of PTSD; not just why a certain SOF soldier does or not develop it.  Patriotism has nothing to do with it and it's not isolated to the US or Brazil; I'm sure there are a lot of conscripts or child soldiers around the world with PTSD that would love to explain it to you. As well the I know a lot of conventional dudes that are pretty mentally fucking tough. Don't take offence but your questions are a bit naive and ignorant; it's like this study:  PTSD Among Ethnic Minority Veterans.

If you can't find the answers out there, then they don't exist for you to see and probably won't for some time.  What I am trying to say and so was HOLLiS is that it can't be measured like anything else; it can take decades to appear as well.  I personally know Veterans from the Korean War that are just getting diagnosed up here.

In Canada we use a different term because of the complex nature of mental health and it's not just PTSD that people are affected by.  But all needed to be initially treated the same.  We call it an Operational Stress Injury, we will all suffer from something and even substance abuse is a mental illness; which is more than likely covering up something more.



> An operational stress injury (OSI) is any persistent psychological difficulty resulting from operational duties performed by a Canadian Forces member. The term OSI is used to describe a broad range of problems which usually result in impairment in functioning. OSIs include diagnosed medical conditions such as anxiety, depression and post traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) as well as a range of less severe conditions, but the term OSI is not intended to be used in a medical or legal context.
> http://www.osiss.ca/engraph/def_e.asp?sidecat=1


 


Here's a couple great resources, I suggest you do some reading and reread what others have posted here. 

http://www.ptsdsupport.net/complete_PTSD.html

http://www.ptsd.va.gov/





> *DSM Criteria for PTSD*
> 
> What is PILOTS?
> Search PILOTS, the largest citation database on PTSD.
> ...


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## LOOON (Oct 3, 2012)

EliasBR said:


> The answers above are really satisfying as I'm learning a lot


Why? Why are you trying to "learn" anything in regard to this subject? I tried to look at your profile to get some indication as to your background and it says you have it hidden.

Are you a college student? Are you former military?

It's not just military personnel that develop PTSD. Doctors, nurses, EMTs, cops, car wreck survivors, rape survivors, natural disaster survivors, shooting victims, kids on a playground that got beat up by a mob of other kids. The list goes on and on.

The first thing you need to "KNOW" is that this is a very sensitive subject and it can be hard as fuck for some to talk about. Your situational awareness sucks and therefore Im inclined to think that you are NOT former military.

Make no mistake, I didn't  make my post to answer any of YOUR "questions". I posted what I posted to help along a thread that is being read by men and women I respect, of which I know their background.

Do your self a favor and "read more and post less". If you truly are here to learn and not to troll this website, you will be doing yourself a favor by doing so.


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## pardus (Oct 3, 2012)

reed11b said:


> P.S. pardus the reason I disagreed with your post is that the individuals you described do NOT have PTSD, they have sandyvaginitus. This is a completely different dis-order caused by the lack of spine.


 

That is one of the problems of PTSD, who can make that determination?


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## Marauder06 (Oct 3, 2012)

pardus said:


> That is one of the problems of PTSD, who can make that determination?


 
That's one of the biggest problems with PTSD, it's kind of the "back pain" of our generation.  When I first joined the Army, a lot of people were claiming to have, and being treated for, moderate to severe back pain.  Like PTSD, it was a legit affliction that enough people had that it had to be taken seriously, but it was impossible to prove that someone actually had it if they were faking.  Same with PTSD.  It seems that every time a Soldier gets in trouble, they claim it's PTSD-related.  How can you prove or disprove something that exists largely in the mind of the individual who claims to have it?  The correct answer, IMO, is that normally you have to err on the side of caution and assume it's true until proven otherwise, which is VERY difficult to do.


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## Crusader74 (Oct 3, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> That's one of the biggest problems with PTSD, it's kind of the "back pain" of our generation. When I first joined the Army, a lot of people were claiming to have, and being treated for, moderate to severe back pain. Like PTSD, it was a legit affliction that enough people had that it had to be taken seriously, but it was impossible to prove that someone actually had it if they were faking. Same with PTSD. It seems that every time a Soldier gets in trouble, they claim it's PTSD-related. How can you prove or disprove something that exists largely in the mind of the individual who claims to have it? The correct answer, IMO, is that normally you have to err on the side of caution and assume it's true until proven otherwise, which is VERY difficult to do.


 

Well, I am lucky not to suffer with PTSD but I do with back pain.. I put it down to heavy rucking while I was in an 11B. There is nothing worse than getting called out when you have a legitimate problem by people who think your bluffing ....  I can only imagine what a person goes through daily who has PTSD...


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## Marauder06 (Oct 3, 2012)

Irish said:


> Well, I am lucky not to suffer with PTSD but I do with back pain.. I put it down to heavy rucking while I was in an 11B. There is nothing worse than getting called out when you have a legitimate problem by people who think your bluffing .... I can only imagine what a person goes through daily who has PTSD...


 
I agree completely.


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## HOLLiS (Oct 3, 2012)

Irish said:


> Well, I am lucky not to suffer with PTSD but I do with back pain.. I put it down to heavy rucking while I was in an 11B. There is nothing worse than getting called out when you have a legitimate problem by people who think your bluffing .... I can only imagine what a person goes through daily who has PTSD...


 
I may have acted in haste, so my apology to the membership.
During the 70's and 80's the VA chased away a lot of veterans from the Viet-Nam war. It was not the people at the hospitals, but the administration. We were made to feel that our claims were bogus. It was not until the mid 80's, that the VA changed it's position and decided to help RVN Vets, but the damage was done. In order for the VA to reach RVN vets, privately operated out reach clinics were open to help vets. There were a number of articles about "trip wire" vets, who choose a secluded life style as a solution to the problems they were dealing with. The change in our society occurred at the end of the Gulf war, it was now cool to be a vet again. A new problem for the RVN vet, wannabes...... Today there is a estimated 13 million wannabe RVN Vets to the 850,000 actual vets.

At the start of the gulf war, the Vets in this country decided that what happened to the RVN Vets was not going to happen to our current serving members. Support our Troops became a common expression. It is bad enough coming home to a insensitive nation, but come home to a hostile nation. As bad as some things are today, they are a lot better than not so long ago. Our current serving are the people who need our support and so does their families. IMHO, if I am overly protective, that is why. I am safe today, not for what the Vets of my generation did, it is what our current members of our Armed forces are doing. It is the least we can do, considering all that they are doing for us. For those why have served, they do not deserve disrespect for their service, injuries and should be provided the best care a nation can provide.


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## Crusader74 (Oct 3, 2012)

HOLLiS said:


> I may have acted in haste, so my apology to the membership.
> During the 70's and 80's the VA chased away a lot of veterans from the Viet-Nam war. It was not the people at the hospitals, but the administration. We were made to feel that our claims were bogus. It was not until the mid 80's, that the VA changed it's position and decided to help RVN Vets, but the damage was done. In order for the VA to reach RVN vets, privately operated out reach clinics were open to help vets. There were a number of articles about "trip wire" vets, who choose a secluded life style as a solution to the problems they were dealing with. The change in our society occurred at the end of the Gulf war, it was now cool to be a vet again. A new problem for the RVN vet, wannabes...... Today there is a estimated 13 million wannabe RVN Vets to the 850,000 actual vets.
> 
> At the start of the gulf war, the Vets in this country decided that what happened to the RVN Vets was not going to happen to our current serving members. Support our Troops became a common expression. It is bad enough coming home to a insensitive nation, but come home to a hostile nation. As bad as some things are today, they are a lot better than not so long ago. Our current serving are the people who need our support and so does their families. IMHO, if I am overly protected, that is why. I am safe today, not for what the Vets of my generation did, it is what our current members of our Armed forces are doing. It is the least we can do, considering all that they are doing for us. For those why have served, they do not deserve disrespect for their service, injuries and should be provided the best care a nation can provide.


 

You owe no one an apology Hollis.. Military knows Military.. We just have our own ways to articulate..


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## reed11b (Oct 4, 2012)

Why the hate Deathy McDeath ?
Reed


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## Polar Bear (Oct 4, 2012)

Are we all good now and EliasBR can ask questions? To all who are not an Admin or a Mod and trying to correct someone on the board I refer you here, just report it...If you don't want read it let me sum it up for you. If I see this crap again everyone that decided to add there 2 fucking cents in or is an ass, and I don't care if it is 20 posts to 2000 post you are getting a vacation


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## Marauder06 (Oct 4, 2012)

Polar Bear said:


> Are we all good now and EliasBR can ask questions? To all who are not an Admin or a Mod and trying to correct someone on the board I refer you here, just report it...If you don't want read it let me sum it up for you. If I see this crap again everyone that decided to add there 2 fucking cents in or is an ass, and I don't care if it is 20 posts to 2000 post you are getting a vacation


 

What he said.


Guys, I know this is a sensitive subject.  But I think it's worth having a discussion over, so let's do it like we normally do it here on ShadowSpear- calmly, rationally, with professionalism and mutual respect.  I know that this issue affects a number of our members on a deeply personal level.  That makes this subject important to me, and that should make it important to you as well.  So let's get it back on track.

In my opinion, the questions related to Elias's motivations were asked and answered, and I think he was on the receiving end of a bit more hostility than was necessary.  It appears that members have self-corrected on that so I don't think anything else need be said about it.  At the same time, Elias, I'm not taking your side either.  Sometimes, even if you're 100% "right," it's smart to walk away from something that you're likely to end up on the losing side of.  There have been many times in my life where I let something go, because someone was more emotionally vested in a subject than I was, and it wasn't worth the effort of fighting over it.  Something to consider.

On one final note, I'm getting really tired of seeing high-interest threads get shut down due to jackassery.  Consider this an azimuth check for all involved.  Now move out and draw fire.  ;)


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## reed11b (Oct 4, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> Now move out and draw fire. ;)


 
Does that mean downhill by myself with no cover?:-"
Reed


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## Marauder06 (Oct 4, 2012)

reed11b said:


> Does that mean downhill by myself with no cover?:-"
> Reed


 
lol

Excellent crossthreading.


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 5, 2012)

I would say that the occurrence of PTSD is simply severely unreported within the ranks of SOF, pure and simple.

Reasons for that statement?

SOF elements are tight knit groups. This has multiple effects, in my eyes. Green's good, Red's Bad
SOF Veterans who served honorably as a general rule remain a community/enclave/group 
SOF Veterans as a community will generally try to get those who have "gone off the reservation" back "on the res" mentally due to the community factor. We generally keep track of our own, and will provide a shoulder, ear, or helping hand without second thought. We all have been to the point where we were the "strong one" on a mission and had to help someone else up from a knee on a movement, and have been the one helped up as well. 
SOF forces generally are stabilized where they are, unit wise. You can spend years in the same location with the same guys, who all learn about one another through necessity and simple proximity. This gives the means to know when "shit ain't right with XXXX" and not be afraid to check up on their comrade to make sure he's good to go, or help them as needed if they aren't.
SOF forces are stabilized where they are for long durations of time. The lasting relationships and dysfunctional "family" that grows within a SOF unit, make a significantly greater probability to cause greater emotional trauma when a casualty occurs. You can drive by a fatal car wreck and say "that sucks" and go on living, but it's a whole different ballgame mentally when it's a member of your family in that car.
SOF Forces and Veterans are highly motivated and well trained individuals, surrounded by like individuals, who all strive to be the best at their job. This means that the symptoms, or more appropriately, the easily detected symptoms from civilian-incident-based PTSD, are masked easily within the confines of SOF due to the nature of the work, environments, and situations. 
Delayed onset due to repressing/ignoring/burying issues that hit home. You don't have time to deal with it now, you have exfil/QRF/the next mission/next mission phase to deal with. If you stay in the zone you function in the zone because a portion of PTSD precursor "flags" are viable, functional survival mechanisms in theater. 

Service members who are within the ranks of SOF are hard chargers. 
Until it's an issue that cannot be ignored due to it's infringement on their duty performance, things may/can/will be explained away or considered "personality traits" by those either at the same, or higher, levels of leadership. 
Everyone generally loves doing what they do within their respective portion of the SOF Community as a whole. 

Seeking care for psychological problems while active duty is generally speaking akin to:

stopping everything you know and love doing 
hopping in a mining cart 
kicking out the wheel chock and doing the Indiana Jones rail ride. 
Specifically, you're going to get shot at _(in character assassination)_ by some of the people you thought were friends or brothers in arms. 
You have no control at any real point of where you go.
You're about guaranteed the end of the rail line results in the forceful ejection from the military and more importantly, everything you know and love doing. 

Military psychological care isn't focused on getting anyone better. It's focused on identification of whatever issues you have, throwing pills at you, and filling out a med board packet. Significant negative contrast when compared to rehabilitation and "job making" for others who are physically injured. 


Now, think about why reporting is low even on the outside...

Couple everything stated above with the stigma within the military about "mental weakness", talking yourself into PTSD, PTSD being a cop-out, PTSD = Malingerer, which has been specifically stated in this as well as other threads on this forum...

Now flip that shit around and look at what "official" jobs people who are SOF have... the guys that shoot people in the face are primarily infantrymen or the various services variants thereof... know what jobs that lets you get into easily once you get out? Not many anyway.  Bad people need killing but unlike the military,  on the civilian side we tend to want to have to convince 12 people they need killing. Still, Law enforcement is a big job field that has a large amount of direct relation to the duties and responsibilities as a SOF veteran, and it's a job some guys like because you're still carrying a gun, rank structure, and fucking up assholes.

PTSD medical diagnosis and discharge? Might as well just take a sharpie and cross that entire job category off your list.

Couple it with everyone thinking PTSD means you're going to go Rambo or flip out at the drop of a dime or some other shit, and you're double fucked. 


What that all means as a Veteran, let alone a SOF Veteran, is this:

Cocksuckers are able to be proud of the ball-chin and fly their flag proudly, even in uniform... yet combat vets who get hit with a randomly fused brain housing group IED have to hide in the closet both in and out of the service.

How fucked up is that?


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## RackMaster (Oct 5, 2012)

Awesome post Ranger Psych.

I found an older article to justify the lack of data.





> *Majority of U.S. Army Special Forces Operators do not seek PTSD treatment*
> 
> Published on November 11, 2009 at 6:43 AM ·  No Comments
> 
> ...


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 5, 2012)

It ain't fear, it's reality.

I went for help when I realized "shit wudn't right".

I expected that they'd help identify what the problem was, and help unfuck the problem.

What happened?

Diagnosed with PTSD
attacked with stigma on all sides since then
removed from being an infantry team leader who was being "groomed" to relieve a squad leader immediately upon deployment in-country
removed from my infantry company altogether and put in rear-d with a metric pile of non-hacking shitbags
ostracized from my unit
been called weak by brothers in arms from SOF and a downright coward by fucks with no deployments who weren't deploying _and they should thank the medication I was on then for not being murdered with their office desk_
Got discharged from the Army with a week to clear post/ACAP/etc
Multiple job applications post-service replied with "LOLNO"

People see a dude that got BTFU/Shot and has a claw for a hand, or a limp from shrapnel or some shit, and there's a scar and visible reason they are limited however they are.

With PTSD, it's an invisible round you can't armor for, can't train to avoid, and like a mortar blast, misses everyone and hits one guy who was standing right next to you... or misses everyone and hits you. You're jacked up with no physical reason for it, people can't understand what it does to you other than what you tell them, they can't relate any experiences to it. That gives them apparent free reign to go full retard.

I'd trade my PTSD for a hand in a heartbeat, but I'd flip the script and be taking David Sarif to school with what I'd interface with my nub. Imagine a prosthetic hand with a bayonet lug that also incorporates a laser rangefinder, GPS, Broadband communications suite, jacks into networks with a punch-spike and as a final touch makes any Apple products within a 100m radius only play Rick Astley.


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## LOOON (Oct 5, 2012)

Within weeks of returning for OJC, I went to see a shrink on main post. I did what I thought was the right thing, considering what I was thinking and going through. I told nobody that I was going.

I told the shrink that I knew I was wrong for thinking the way that I was, and that was why I needed to get shit off of my chest. After my "session" I went straight back to the barracks. Within minutes of my arrival, I was called to the carpet by my CO.

Your damned if you do, and you are damned if you don't. Back then, PTSD wasn't an acknowledged "issue" in the military. I never talked about ANYTHING ever again while I was in uniform...........................with ANYONE.

While you are in uniform, keep that shit to yourself unless you want them to kick you out. Dressing and acting like Clinger on Mash no longer does the trick. hahaha


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 5, 2012)

Going to agree 100% with RP on this one (probably the first time ever) but I think he hit the nail on the head with how the Army deals with PTSD, especially in combat vets who have LOD’s from actual combat ops, etc.

There is no secret to me, I originally was sent to the Warrior Transition Unit (fancy name for med hold) for a neck & back injury. I went through all the process, one of them being a mental health screening. I was flagged due to some stuff that happened on my first deployment, not from the current deployment I was returning from. But I was evaluated and given a diagnoses of sever PTSD, mild to severe anxiety and moderate depression. After I was diagnosed I received no further care outside of a mandatory social work screening every 90 days and put on a few different medications, that seem to change every 6 months.

When I went through my MEB, the primary reason I was being found unfit for duty was the PTSD. Believe it or not, I was going to get a Return to Duty all the way up to the point I had to clear mental health again for the MEB. Basically, the cocksuckers told me that I could not be armed, and that I could not conduct any live fire training of any kind. Kind of hard to be an Infantryman without a weapon…oh wait…nope you can’t even be a soldier if you can’t qual with a weapon (unless I become real religious and go the crazy x-infantry Chaplin route).

Do I suffer from PTSD, honestly I don’t really know. I have had many things pointed out by family, friends and fellow soldiers. Do I have dreams; sure, is it enough to effect my daily life…not at all. The biggest problem I have is that my BullShit meter is pegged at max and has been since my brothers were killed over some dumbass cocksucking fagget ass Btn commander refusing to listen to the man on the ground. Or maybe it was one of the many events where it easier for company commander to allow his joes to face a 15-6 investigation instead of manning the fuck up and saying “they were doing what I told them to do” and I can go on and on, but the point is the same, I have no time for stupid anymore.

The part that kills me the most about how stupid the Army actually is, is that I trained soldier to shoot on a live fire range for 2.5 years after that first deployment, deployed to Iraq a second time carried a weapon the whole fucking time (never needing to fire a round outside of check zeros) and own way more guns then I need. And the Army in all of its wisdom still put me out b/c they don’t want me touching those bad weapons….I mean fucking really out of all the PTSD having soldier running around Fort Hood Texas, the only one to go on a mass killing spree is the only soldier who has yet to deploy, and a Army psychologist to boot…..You guys remember that fuck-nugget terrorist they still have yet to sentence (Major Hassan).

I remember hearing that they believed that fucking terrorist was suffering from PTSD that he had acquired through the treatment of actual combat vet, yeah PTSD is being dealt with real fucking well by the Army….fucking idiots.

I can’t talk for the SOF side of the house, but in the CF side, well combat arms side, PTSD is joked about while hanging around the smoke shack, never actually talked about in any seriousness until after a soldier has broken down, or is on the way off the cliff. Any of the HSLD soldiers are normally not going to come right out and say “hey I have a problem with my nugget” where in most cases the LSHD soldiers are using it as a way out of the Army/another deployment. Some simply get caught in the mix by accident and some actually believe that stupid shit they say in those briefs that “it won’t hurt your career and you will get the help you need” fucking right.


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## Loki (Oct 10, 2012)

I'm personally and professionally associated with several men who have been diagnosed with PTSD. I had no idea one of them was in treatment and has been for sometime. He had five total deployments including Desert Storm and was one of the first into Kuwait city as a SOF / DA unit, he is highly decorated to include Valor awards. He refused treatment, wouldn't acknowledge the problem until his wife intervened and went to the VA and his command. Still he hides this and won't tell people about this for fear of being thought of as a coward. He is a close friend, good father, honorable man and a warrior. I make no determination of conditions. I'm not a doctor and I'm certainly not qualified to pass judgement on persons. It seems there are folks who are manipulating the system for personal gain. However we have allot of SF / SOF Vets who have been deployed too much, stretched mentally beyond the norms of expectations and used up. Our nation is now too dependent on too few to do too much and continually do their biding because we have a society of parasites and slugs who refuse to serve our great nation and the greater good. Hence the drastic increase in this condition and the constant ever use of good men and women.

With deepest respect


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## Grimfury160 (Oct 23, 2012)

After being asked by my family numerous times to go to the VABHC upon ETSing, I went. Was told PTSD symptoms but was diagnosed with Hyper Vigilance stemming from my deployment to OIF1 as a major benefactor and OEF as a secondary. I opened up about experiences on security details when I was with 101st, they were like "I thought you said you were a 71L?", I was like "where does it say in the deployment orders must be MOS specific?". I was tasked out with Civil Affairs, put on guard duty many times, provided convoy security for the divisional staff...... I still have not opened up much on the OEF deployment when I was with 160th, watched a lot of screens......ditto.......

I had reminded the counselor at VABHC that many guys will not speak of their experiences even if the information is deemed confidential for them. The NDA was signed sealed and filed for those that are still active and those no longer serving, they will remain under lock and key if it pertains to mission specifics.

Not much can be said for my buddy, as a medic he saw his fair share and the shrapnel to prove it. When J returned, he was a totally different person but just sucked it up and moved forward. I have other buddies that would rather BS on the phone and kick back a few beers with locals than go to the behavioral health center. Sometimes there are other stressors in a Soldiers life that can act as a trigger. Key point to this discussion is that it is present in SOF just not talked about much. A key phrase I remember "embrace the suck", most Soldiers self treat through other means. For the NCOs in the line units, keep your eyes open and be a role model to your Joes.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 23, 2012)

My instructor talked about his IA deployment to Iraq (as a Phalanx/CIWS tech) and what it did to him.  He came back and was diagnosed with PTSD, not because of what he saw, but because of the heightened sense of awareness/don't trust anyone mind frame that most people over there operate with.  He said the "on-edge paranoia" didn't wear off once he was back in the states and certain things he would hear or experience would bring back that feeling.  
This is me relating his story with my words, not his.  I'm paraphrasing what he told us.  Not sure if anyone else has had experiences like this, but just thought I'd contribute.

Land based CIWS:


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## The Hate Ape (Oct 27, 2012)

I can't speak for other services but back when I was fleet side Marine Corps this shit was pounded into our brain housing group constantly. We were highly encouraged to seek assistance after Post-DHAs, they were discussed during Pre-DHAs, and were brought up during any medical visit.

I've seen guys range in all categories. Some in the deep end currently getting assistance, others you'd never know until you were having a conversation with them and something came up from the past, you just knew it was eating at them based on how they were responding. You'd also kind of pin it to his actions/reactions (emotionally) the last few days or you'd hear his responses in discussions and you'd know then too.

As Ranger Psych mentioned earlier in the thread - you spend years with some people and you know immediately when they're having that moment. Thats the way it seemed most of the time, a bad moment, then on with life. This was also very infrequent, it never really sparked up until a guy at our unit's funeral service reunion was threatened by the WBC at Arlington. Then he had a bad few weeks but it never affected his performance. After that - same guy I've known for a while now and he's doing fine still (I assume). He's also the best platoon sergeant I've ever served with.

SOF side, in my current pipeline there's a particular CSO from 1st who is phenomenal on all levels. Constantly stands out, even among other studs and is truly dominating the full spectrum of our curriculum/course/evals. Prior to his 72 MOS he was a mortars guy with 1/5. Truly has a deep end mentality PTSD wise once in a while but I think that's because he'll suppress it for so long. There's so much shit to do 25, 50, and a 100 meters out for him that I'm almost positive he just ignores the feelings and keeps moving. I've had him over my house a few times for Barbeques and what not but you'll never notice. I've never personally witnessed him have his moment, but one of our friends has and he said it was fairly difficult to control the situation.

I'm certain the PTSD situation is different for everyone. People have perspectives and outlooks on things/events/subjects that are unique to them which will dictate how that individual is affected. No situation traumatic or common is excluded from this rule.

Finally, I'll mention that I'm sure there are many more undiagnosed cases than what we (government wise) are aware of or even capable of detecting. Under that circumstance and even the diagnosed cases, many people who experience PTSD go on to live with it for the rest of their days and will _usually_ overcome the effects by tailoring their lifestyle and the things they do to their awareness of the situation. Regardless I generally look down on those who pass judgment on those who are willing to put their ego aside and seek help despite the douchelord criticism they may receive from particular "individuals." While this event isn't very common, it happens enough to mention... another difficulty I'll chalk up to those who have to deal with this on a daily bases.



BTW skrewz that shit looks really badass.


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## Iteach4 (Sep 6, 2013)

EliasBR said:


> I was wondering about this matter, is any study that points out the rates of PTSD or even suicide on SOF members?
> 
> I don't know if there is any recent study about this, but does anyone know if conventional soldiers are more susceptible to acquire PTSD than special operations soldiers?
> 
> Aside of that, proportionally speaking, conventional soldiers suffers PTSD or commit suicide more than SOF soldiers?




Did that really happen?

Can't you get some articles off of JSTOR? 

Really?


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## Marauder06 (Sep 6, 2013)

Iteach4 said:


> Did that really happen?
> 
> Can't you get some articles off of JSTOR?
> 
> Really?



Iteach- I appreciate your enthusiasm, but we probably don't need a brand-new user with fewer than a dozen posts to correct the behavior of another junior member in a thread that spans 4 pages of posts and was last active almost a year ago.  We have a staff and many seasoned members who can handle discipline on the site, posts like what you made tend to only inflame the situation and create problems where none need exist.  Thanks.


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## Iteach4 (Sep 6, 2013)

Feel free to delete it. I apologize, I understand how that would cause problems. Thanks.


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## LogDog0402 (Nov 5, 2013)

I wanted to add my PTSD experience to this thread.  I was just recently diagnosed with PTSD by the VA due to hyper vigilance and anxiety.  I wasn't involved in any type of blast or heavy combat although my team did have a few pop shots taken at us by the Jordanians and Syrians (you read that right, also we weren't allowed to return fire).  My biggest issue has been that I can't shake the feeling of when I walk into any room that I develop a plan of if shit hits the fan who do I kill first, what are the best exits and things of that nature.  I also have had panic attacks when walking into a bank or an open air mall like in San Diego.  Basically I panic because I don't have my weapons and so I have to stop and remind myself that I am in the US not Iraq.  These are really just reminders of situations that should have gone horribly wrong.  Try telling a group of Iraqi Bankers that you need to take the money(large amount) they just seized and see how far you get.  

Do I think I suffer from PTSD?  Not really but my wife has pointed out things that I have done that made me finally go to the VA and talk to someone.  My favorite thing that she pointed out that I did was that we had a knock on our door one night and I answered the door while holding a large knife behind my back.  I find this funny because I didn't even realize I did that until she pointed it out after the person at the door had left.  I share this because maybe it will help someone else that has it worse than me.  

I think Ranger Psych had the best post about how SOF is better equipped to deal with PTSD because of the nature of being with the same group for years.  I can relate because I deployed with 10 other Marines and we were embeded with Iraqi forces. Our teams were modeled after ODAs.  We had years of SOF type training, mainly UW and TCCC, crammed into four months and then an eight month deployment.  Most of our training was conducted by 18Ds for TCCC and former Green Berets for UW.  The whole point was to change out mindset from "close with and destroy" to "train, mentor and advise".  I did that cycle for two years and there was a real brotherhood established but at the end the team was broken up and we went back to our normal Marine Corps jobs.  My point here is that all of a sudden that small group was taken away and we were reinserted into the regular Marine Corps where very few understood what we did.  I can foresee current CSOs in MARSOC having a similar ordeal when they transition back to a regular Marine unit.  I know an old roommate of mine is trying to get back to MARSOC ASAP because he hates being back in a regular unit now.


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## 0699 (Nov 5, 2013)

LogDog0402 said:


> I wanted to add my PTSD experience to this thread.  I was just recently diagnosed with PTSD by the VA due to *hyper vigilance and anxiety*.  I wasn't involved in any type of blast or heavy combat although my team did have a few pop shots taken at us by the Jordanians and Syrians (you read that right, also we weren't allowed to return fire).  My biggest issue has been that I can't shake the feeling of *when I walk into any room that I develop a plan of if shit hits the fan who do I kill first*, *what are the best exits* and things of that nature.  I also have had panic attacks when walking into a bank or an open air mall like in San Diego.  Basically I panic because *I don't have my weapons and so I have to stop and remind myself that I am in the US not Iraq*.  These are really just reminders of situations that should have gone horribly wrong.  Try telling a group of Iraqi Bankers that you need to take the money(large amount) they just seized and see how far you get.
> 
> *Do I think I suffer from PTSD*?  Not really but my wife has pointed out things that I have done that made me finally go to the VA and talk to someone.  My favorite thing that she pointed out that I did was that we had a knock on our door one night and I answered the door while holding a large knife behind my back.  I find this funny because I didn't even realize I did that until she pointed it out after the person at the door had left.  I share this because maybe it will help someone else that has it worse than me.


 
If you have PTSD, then 99% of the men I know and many of the women also have PTSD.  Sounds to me like you just have awareness; that "thing" that kept our ancestors from getting eaten by dinosaurs.


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## pardus (Nov 5, 2013)

0699 said:


> If you have PTSD, then 99% of the men I know and many of the women also have PTSD.  Sounds to me like you just have awareness; that "thing" that kept our ancestors from getting eaten by dinosaurs.



I recently spoke to a guy I deployed with, he told me he'd been diagnosed with PTSD. I asked him how that was possible, he told me that the VA basically forced it upon him through a series of questions. "Are you having trouble sleeping? Have you had a panic attack since you got back? Have you been more alert since you got back?" PTSD... Next!


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## LogDog0402 (Nov 5, 2013)

pardus said:


> I recently spoke to a guy I deployed with, he told me he'd been diagnosed with PTSD. I asked him how that was possible, he told me that the VA basically forced it upon him through a series of questions. "Are you having trouble sleeping? Have you had a panic attack since you got back? Have you been more alert since you got back?" PTSD... Next!



Yes, this is exactly how it went for me.  They talk with you for about 30-45 minutes, ask if you want to take meds, and suggest group therapy.  I just went to a group session the other day and it wasn't too bad but I'm blowing off the next one to play in a hockey tournament for "old" men.


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## LibraryLady (Nov 5, 2013)

Pardon my cynicism about the VA, but remember they have to justify the dinero they receive.   PTSD is the new "in" thing at the VA that gives them a ton of money.

I've been dealing with them for 20+ years.  Everytime I came in for an appt I would have to answer the same barrage of questions about sexual harassment - that covered me from the early 80's through the early 2000's. 

Now they ask about PTSD.  The questions are essentially the same questions.  So I give the same answers.  Many times I've been tempted to tape record my answers. 

More than once I've asked how come they keep asking them.  "In case you change your mind about talking about it."  WTF?  I guess they assume it happened to me and I'm just in denial.  :wall:

LL


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## medicchick (Nov 5, 2013)

LibraryLady said:


> More than once I've asked how come they keep asking them.  "In case you change your mind about talking about it."  WTF?  I guess they assume it happened to me and I'm just in denial.  :wall:
> 
> LL



Some people are.  It took one of my sisters 15 years to talk about what happened to her, and then only at the urging of another girl who had the same thing happen to her, by the same person.  Sad world when you can't even trust a church youth pastor.


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## pardus (Nov 5, 2013)

LibraryLady said:


> Pardon my cynicism about the VA, but remember they have to justify the dinero they receive.   PTSD is the new "in" thing at the VA that gives them a ton of money.



I guess it's not just people trying to take advantage of the system then, the system is taking advantage of itself. A self feeding bureaucracy. That can't be bad right?


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## LogDog0402 (Nov 5, 2013)

pardus said:


> I guess it's not just people trying to take advantage of the system then, the system is taking advantage of itself. A self feeding bureaucracy. That can't be bad right?



The way I look at it, if they are going to diagnose you with PTSD or anything else then you need to file a claim and get paid for it.  I haven't filed yet because it might affect me joining the NG.  It might affect me already, not sure on this.  I'm good either way but I have realized that I miss my team and wish we could have done a few more deployments together, those were great days.


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## pardus (Nov 5, 2013)

LogDog0402 said:


> The way I look at it, if they are going to diagnose you with PTSD or anything else then you need to file a claim and get paid for it.  I haven't filed yet because it might affect me joining the NG.  It might affect me already, not sure on this.  I'm good either way but I have realized that I miss my team and wish we could have done a few more deployments together, those were great days.



I was warned that EVERYTHING going to/through the VA is accessible by the Military. In a time of downsizing (IMO) anyone being flagged as a psych case is going to get fucked (or risks a very good chance of). I would be very careful indeed about what you let get into your file (at least while you still intend to serve). That's not to mention the possible gun ownership issues if you're are diagnosed as a psych case by the US GOVT.

Feeling a warm and fuzzy yet? Me neither...


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## reed11b (Nov 5, 2013)

pardus said:


> I was warned that EVERYTHING going to/through the VA is accessible by the Military. In a time of downsizing (IMO) anyone being flagged as a psych case is going to get fucked (or risks a very good chance of). I would be very careful indeed about what you let get into your file (at least while you still intend to serve). That's not to mention the possible gun ownership issues if you're are diagnosed as a psych case by the US GOVT.
> 
> Feeling a warm and fuzzy yet? Me neither...


Yup. Vet Centers are an exception to this rule. We also do not diagnose as a rule of thumb.
Reed


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## pardus (Nov 5, 2013)

reed11b said:


> Yup. Vet Centers are an exception to this rule. We also do not diagnose as a rule of thumb.
> Reed



There you go folks...


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## x SF med (Nov 6, 2013)

pardus said:


> I guess it's not just people trying to take advantage of the system then, the system is taking advantage of itself. A self feeding bureaucracy. That can't be bad right?


 
also known as a "self licking ice cream cone" (thank you Crip for reminding me of that gem)


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## LibraryLady (Nov 6, 2013)

medicchick said:


> Some people are.  It took one of my sisters 15 years to talk about what happened to her, and then only at the urging of another girl who had the same thing happen to her, by the same person.  Sad world when you can't even trust a church youth pastor.



I get the denial part, truly I do, having taken my canoe down that river.  What I don't get are the intrusive and insensitive questions they use.  Delivered by people who are genuinely caring, but know they are going through the motions of "procedure".  Having used the mental health care system (both VA and non) to great effect and knowing there are way better ways to talk about sexual trauma and PTSD, I really get pissed at what the VA has come up with to screen for problems.

LL


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## reed11b (Nov 6, 2013)

LibraryLady said:


> Pardon my cynicism about the VA, but remember they have to justify the dinero they receive.   PTSD is the new "in" thing at the VA that gives them a ton of money.


I have heard this theory for everything from chiropractors to veterinarians, and I think it is BS.  The VA over asks and over screens because every time they don't and someone and acts out and _might_ have had PTSD, the media crucifies the VA for not helping the Veteran earlier. False positives are better then a false negative or a missed diagnosis as far as the VA is concerned. Same reason you are always asked the suicide question. It's CYA, not conspiracy, kinda like the military.
Reed


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## LibraryLady (Nov 6, 2013)

reed11b said:


> I have heard this theory for everything from chiropractors to veterinarians, and I think it is BS.  The VA over asks and over screens because every time they don't and someone and acts out and _might_ have had PTSD, the media crucifies the VA for not helping the Veteran earlier. False positives are better then a false negative or a missed diagnosis as far as the VA is concerned. Same reason you are always asked the suicide question. It's CYA, not conspiracy, kinda like the military.
> Reed



Read my post just above.  I get what they are doing, and the repetition to catch those acknowledging their denial.  What I don't like is the way the questions are worded and the apathy in which they are asked.  

LL


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## policemedic (Nov 6, 2013)

reed11b said:


> I have heard this theory for everything from chiropractors to veterinarians, and I think it is BS.  The VA over asks and over screens because every time they don't and someone and acts out and _might_ have had PTSD, the media crucifies the VA for not helping the Veteran earlier. False positives are better then a false negative or a missed diagnosis as far as the VA is concerned. Same reason you are always asked the suicide question. It's CYA, not conspiracy, kinda like the military.
> Reed



A false positive diagnosis is never a good thing, particularly in the mental health arena where disabilities are imposed upon the individual.

We can debate all day long whether or not being tagged by the VA as having PTSD is a valid 'diagnosis', but having that tag in your file because of the use of a survey instrument whose sensitivity and specificity need to be improved does not help you.


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## medicchick (Nov 6, 2013)

LibraryLady said:


> I get the denial part, truly I do, having taken my canoe down that river.  What I don't get are the intrusive and insensitive questions they use.  Delivered by people who are genuinely caring, but know they are going through the motions of "procedure".  Having used the mental health care system (both VA and non) to great effect and knowing there are way better ways to talk about sexual trauma and PTSD, I really get pissed at what the VA has come up with to screen for problems.
> 
> LL



Gotcha.  Yeah, the delivery can make all the difference on questions like that.


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## reed11b (Nov 6, 2013)

policemedic said:


> A false positive diagnosis is never a good thing, particularly in the mental health arena where disabilities are imposed upon the individual.


I never stated it was a good thing.
Reed


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## policemedic (Nov 6, 2013)

reed11b said:


> I never stated it was a good thing.
> Reed



No, you didn't.  To be clear, I was referring to the VA's view on the matter.  



reed11b said:


> False positives are better then a false negative or a missed diagnosis as far as the VA is concerned.


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## DA SWO (Nov 7, 2013)

The other issue is the have lowered the standards for PTSD.  I was examined in 2005(?) and have 2 positive answers, she told me I was normal and experiencing the same things 90% of combat vets experienced.  Today you only need 1 positive to "have" PTSD, the more positives the higher your rating.  

Sad, some guys/gals really need the treatment, but we have turned the VA into another social entitlement agency.


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## RENO (Nov 8, 2013)

...In my opinion, only those that walk the walk, can talk the talk ...


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## pardus (Nov 8, 2013)

RENO said:


> ...In my opinion, only those that walk the walk, can talk the talk ...



That highlights the problem now, the powers that be have decided that operating a video game (drones) 5,000ml away from a combat zone _is _walking the walk!


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## reed11b (Nov 8, 2013)

RENO said:


> ...In my opinion, only those that walk the walk, can talk the talk ...


meaning what exactly? 
Reed


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## 8654Maine (Nov 8, 2013)

RENO said:


> ...In my opinion, only those that walk the walk, can talk the talk ...



Please expound.


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## RENO (Nov 8, 2013)

.


The answers to question about combat PTSD, come best from those that have experienced combat PTSD.  After almost 50 years fighting this son of a bitch, answers have been coming that are making seance and seem to be helping.  Some of those answers came from those that experienced similar situations, but at large, most of my relief was drawn from going deep inside  searching for reasons "WHY".  Try that without walking the walk.


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## pardus (Nov 8, 2013)

RENO said:


> .
> 
> 
> The answers to question about combat PTSD, come best from those that have experienced combat PTSD.  After almost 50 years fighting this son of a bitch, answers have been coming that are making seance and seem to be helping.  Some of those answers came from those that experienced similar situations, but at large, most of my relief was drawn from going deep inside  searching for reasons "WHY".  Try that without walking the walk.



There is no such thing as "combat PTSD" PTSD is PTSD. 

Please do not confuse your personal experience with accepted current PTSD thought by the medical community.


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## RENO (Nov 8, 2013)

pardus said:


> There is no such thing as "combat PTSD" PTSD is PTSD.
> 
> Please do not confuse your personal experience with accepted current PTSD thought by the medical community.



Next thing you'll be trying to say there's no such as combat.  Wise up, old timer ...


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## pardus (Nov 8, 2013)

RENO said:


> Next thing you'll be trying to say there's no such as combat.  Wise up, old timer ...



PTSD= Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. 

Not combat, Trauma. 
Rape, Car accident, mugging, animal attack, rap concert.

Like I said.You are artificially influencing what PTSD is.

I have the greatest respect for Vietnam vets! But you do not own PTSD.


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## SkrewzLoose (Nov 8, 2013)

I hate to burst your bubble, but PTSD exists outside of the Military as well.


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## surgicalcric (Nov 9, 2013)

pardus said:


> ...the VA basically forced it upon him through a series of questions. "Are you having trouble sleeping? Have you had a panic attack since you got back? Have you been more alert since you got back?" PTSD... Next!



They do the same thing at WR-NMMC.  Everytime I have to see a provider I have to answer the same questions.


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