# Orlando shooting



## Brill (Jun 12, 2016)

FBI has called it domestic terrorism within HOURS but how long did it take to call San Bernadino terrorism? Why the immediate confirmation?


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## Florida173 (Jun 12, 2016)

Is every shooting domestic terrorism now? Is it home grown terrorism? Are we going to start likening our crime to the atrocities of isil?

Or is it because it was a gay club?


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## racing_kitty (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm thinking it's because it was 20 victims killed at a gay bar that it got the label "domestic terrorism." Why wouldn't any other mass shooting be considered terrorism by today's standards? Or at all?

Personally, I'm curious as to whether the shooter was screaming "Fuck all y'all fudge packing faggots," or "Allahu ackbar."  Either one is likely, given enough booze and hate, but I know which one I've personally had issues with over the years.


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## ShadowSpear (Jun 12, 2016)

I think regardless of who the perpetrator was, the 2nd Amendment is going to take another hit by the media, liberals, and of course politicians.  Not to mention prices will shoot up even more.

'Multiple casualties' confirmed at US gay club after gunman is killed


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## Brill (Jun 12, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Is every shooting domestic terrorism now? Is it home grown terrorism? Are we going to start likening our crime to the atrocities of isil?
> 
> Or is it because it was a gay club?



I don't know because I question whether there was a political agenda by the shooter. Absent that, it's just a mass shooting or more evidence that the Government needs to save us from ourselves.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Jun 12, 2016)

Man, I'm glad I left when I did...I mean...this is sad....:-":blkeye:


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## ShadowSpear (Jun 12, 2016)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Man, I'm glad I left when I did...I mean...this is sad....:-":blkeye:



How were the drinks?

It is really unfortunate and it will probably be another bullet point for driving antigun legislation, especially with a new POTUS coming in.  Sure it's a hate crime, but will liberals call it that if it was done by a Muslim, or will it be tagged terrorism (vice Islamic terrorism)


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## Kraut783 (Jun 12, 2016)

FBI definition of Domestic Terrorism ...but, don't see it fitting yet.

"Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:

Involve acts dangerous to human life that violate federal or state law;
Appear intended (i) to intimidate or coerce a civilian population; (ii) to influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion; or (iii) to affect the conduct of a government by mass destruction, assassination. or kidnapping; and
Occur primarily within the territorial jurisdiction of the U.S."
18 U.S.C. § 2332b defines the term "federal crime of terrorism" as an offense that:

Is calculated to influence or affect the conduct of government by intimidation or coercion, or to retaliate against government conduct; and
Is a violation of one of several listed statutes, including § 930(c) (relating to killing or attempted killing during an attack on a federal facility with a dangerous weapon); and § 1114 (relating to killing or attempted killing of officers and employees of the U.S.).
* FISA defines "international terrorism" in a nearly identical way, replacing "primarily" outside the U.S. with "totally" outside the U.S. 50 U.S.C. § 1801(c).

Hate crime, sure.....Active shooter, absolutely....DT?  hmmmmmm


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## ShadowSpear (Jun 12, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> FBI definition of Domestic Terrorism ...but, don't see it fitting yet.
> 
> "Domestic terrorism" means activities with the following three characteristics:
> 
> ...



I think the second bullet point is what we're waiting to see. Motive will be the straw that breaks the camel's back.


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## Brill (Jun 12, 2016)

Fox is reporting an Islamic link but can't find anything more other than the claim. Interesting times indeed.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 12, 2016)

We've got a name:

Law enforcement sources have identified the shooter as US citizen Omar Mateen, from Port St. Lucie in Florida Read more: 'Multiple casualties' confirmed at US gay club after gunman is killed

To add - What a world, Sheriff Departments have come a long way from the old days...
*
(2016)*


*
Circa 1989




*


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## Rapid (Jun 12, 2016)

Is anyone really surprised? 50% of Muslims in the UK believe that homosexuality should be illegal.

They hate women. They hate gays. And yet the lefties have a love affair with the religion of pieces. Problem is they also love anything to do with LGBT, so they must be going through some serious cognitive dissonance right now. Though I'm sure a bit of the usual denial will help them through this.


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## macNcheese (Jun 12, 2016)

Didn't anybody tell him bars are gun-free zones?


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## Marauder06 (Jun 12, 2016)

Calling it "domestic terrorism," but it has all the hallmarks of international Islamist terrorism.




> Authorities immediately branded the incident “domestic terrorism,” but the level of preparedness, the fact that the target was a gay nightclub, and the presence of explosive devices potentially indicate foreign terrorist involvement.


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## nobodythank you (Jun 12, 2016)

Holy shit, Orlando mayor just notified that 50 dead now and over 50 wounded.


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## racing_kitty (Jun 12, 2016)

Rapid said:


> Is anyone really surprised? 50% of Muslims in the UK believe that homosexuality should be illegal.
> 
> They hate women. They hate gays. And yet the lefties have a love affair with the religion of pieces. Problem is they also love anything to do with LGBT, *so they must be going through some serious cognitive dissonance right now*. Though I'm sure a bit of the usual denial will help them through this.



Not really. In the hierarchy of victims, Islam trumps trans, trumps cis gay/lesbian, trumps bi, trumps straight. Anyone that tries to make this Stonewall 2.0 is going to be branded as Hitler meets Trixie Mattel. If they can't completely blame islamophobia, it will merely become an anti-2A issue. 

LGBT rights end where the Quran begins.


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## AWP (Jun 12, 2016)

Orlando's making the news of late. The Voice contestant and now this? My heart genuinely goes out to the victims, but the second and third order effects are really going to suck.


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## ShadowSpear (Jun 12, 2016)

Another win for Kevlar:

Orlando Police on Twitter


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## racing_kitty (Jun 12, 2016)

He wouldn't be the first to reap all the material trappings of Western civ, then forsake it in anger for being so materialistic.


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## BuckysBadger24 (Jun 12, 2016)

As usual he looks like every well adjusted college age kid I see every day.  Almost looks like he could have fallen off the Tsarnaev family tree


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## AWP (Jun 12, 2016)

Why did they guy drive 2+ hours to Orlando when West Palm and Lauderdale have their own gay clubs?


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## TLDR20 (Jun 12, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Why did they guy drive 2+ hours to Orlando when West Palm and Lauderdale have their own gay clubs?



Orlando is a tourist destination.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 12, 2016)

This event changes nothing for me in how I feel about the political situation of this country, what the news feeds will or will not report, and how I feel about both radical Islam and my good friend who is Islamic and called me this morning in tears.

What it does do is reenforce to me how blessed I feel to live in MN where my carry-permit legally allows me to carry pretty much anywhere I want, regardless of posting. (or face a fine of $25 if I don't leave when asked).

Soft targets scare me - I have been getting lax at the gym. Fanny pack goes back into place today.


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## Florida173 (Jun 12, 2016)

Orlando also has a large Moroccan population.


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## Poccington (Jun 12, 2016)

Sickening act, may that cunt rot in hell. 

RIP to the fallen.


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## nobodythank you (Jun 12, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> This event changes nothing for me in how I feel about the political situation of this country, what the news feeds will or will not report, and how I feel about both radical Islam and my good friend who is Islamic and called me this morning in tears.
> 
> What it does do is reenforce to me how blessed I feel to live in MN where my carry-permit legally allows me to carry pretty much anywhere I want, regardless of posting. (or face a fine of $25 if I don't leave when asked).
> 
> Soft targets scare me - I have been getting lax at the gym. Fanny pack goes back into place today.


I agree, a big reason why I avoid the no carry places as often as possible. I have always said those large venues are a target rich environment. Worse, most of those venues only hire the minimum amount of security or LE required to save money. 

While Florida has generally lax carry restrictions, they do not allow for carry in clubs (rightly so since alcohol is involved), and they allow businesses to restrict carry on their property (however, they are not usually held liable for patron safety).


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## Rapid (Jun 12, 2016)

racing_kitty said:


> Not really. In the hierarchy of victims, Islam trumps trans, trumps cis gay/lesbian, trumps bi, trumps straight. Anyone that tries to make this Stonewall 2.0 is going to be branded as Hitler meets Trixie Mattel. If they can't completely blame islamophobia, it will merely become an anti-2A issue.
> 
> LGBT rights end where the Quran begins.



Oh I agree. I never thought they were 'equal', in the eyes of lefties, at all. But they're still going to have to do some mental gymnastics to justify what's happened. It may even push some people to vote for Trump, perhaps even some of the LGBT crowd.


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## Etype (Jun 12, 2016)

It's funny that the media doesn't want to say terrorism early in these cases, but if a black guy gets killed by a cop race is immediately brought into question.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 12, 2016)

ke4gde said:


> While Florida has generally lax carry restrictions, they do not allow for carry in clubs (rightly so since alcohol is involved), and they allow businesses to restrict carry on their property (however, they are not usually held liable for patron safety).



In Minnesota, you may carry in clubs (although many have started using wands and metal detectors).  To add, I carry into bars and restaurants where alcohol is served and will occasionally nurse a beer while my friends/family go much further.  (legal is less that 0.04%).  My rule of thumb is one beer per hour - to ensure that if I did have to use my gun, I would not have to worry about being accused of being "drunk" while carrying.


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## AWP (Jun 12, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Orlando is a tourist destination.





Florida173 said:


> Orlando also has a large Moroccan population.



I live there. It was partially rhetorical but can also speak to motive.


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## nobodythank you (Jun 12, 2016)

On a positive note, I am impressed with the apparent cooperation between all of the agencies involved in incident. Even more so my the citizens lining up for blocks to donate blood. Bravo Orlando. Bravo.


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## Etype (Jun 12, 2016)

FUCK!!! Just saw on Fox News, cops arrived while he was still shooting and were order to take cover.

If this is true, this is bullshit. The same thing happened at VA Tech. Fox showed over and over again, a cop outside taking cover behind a tree while you could hear shots being fired inside.

It's the job of law enforcement to protect the good guys from the bad. You may get shot, and you may be killed, but duty calls.


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## DA SWO (Jun 12, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Why did they guy drive 2+ hours to Orlando when West Palm and Lauderdale have their own gay clubs?


Which bar is bigger?
Hit the larger target, get more victims (press)
And Trump gains 3 points in next week's polls.



Ooh-Rah said:


> The media spin-machine is already running in full rage.  The dude's daddy is being quoted as saying that his son saw two-men kissing and was engaged by it.  You wait, this will be turned into an anti-gay hate-crime.  Shame on us for allowing his name to permit us to think otherwise.
> 
> 'Islamic extremist' shoots dead at least 50 at Florida gay club



Clear hate crime, he hates gays; let's just call it Islamic Violence.


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## Salt USMC (Jun 12, 2016)

Rapid said:


> Oh I agree. I never thought they were 'equal', in the eyes of lefties, at all. But they're still going to have to do some mental gymnastics to justify what's happened. It may even push some people to vote for Trump, perhaps even some of the LGBT crowd.


Homophobia is homophobia no matter who perpetrates it, and murder is murder.  Nobody is trying to "justify" anything.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 12, 2016)

Etype said:


> FUCK!!! Just saw on Fox News, cops arrived while he was still shooting and were order to take cover.
> 
> If this is true, this is bullshit. The same thing happened at VA Tech. Fox showed over and over again, a cop outside taking cover behind a tree while you could hear shots being fired inside.
> 
> It's the job of law enforcement to protect the good guys from the bad. You may get shot, and you may be killed, but duty calls.



Apparently this cop got your memo and engaged - 

_Orlando Police say this Kevlar helmet saved life of one of their officers during nightclub shooting -_


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## Etype (Jun 12, 2016)

Fucking 3 hours from start to finish. 

Cowardice through inaction.

Plain and simple.

Police chief was just on TV saying they had to wait for armored vehicles. 

You're in Orlando, not Iraq.


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## nobodythank you (Jun 12, 2016)

Etype said:


> FUCK!!! Just saw on Fox News, cops arrived while he was still shooting and were order to take cover.
> 
> If this is true, this is bullshit. The same thing happened at VA Tech.
> 
> It's the job of law enforcement to protect the good guys from the bad. You may get shot, and you may be killed, but duty calls.


Agreed, but they are not trained to rush in willy nilly. The protocol typically taught in Florida for an active shooter is for the first 4 officers to immediately form an entry team and advance, with the fifth taking incident command to direct other incoming units. If a hostage situation emerges and a suspect is barricaded, then typically the protocol is containment until SWAT arrives. Since the source is Fox, I wouldn't put much stock in it yet. As I understand it the off duty cop at the club was the first to engage the bad guy. 

I am looking forward to the after action review and the resulting training changes that will arise from the lessons learned here.


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## Florida173 (Jun 12, 2016)

Seems Facebook is giving options for people that live there to "mark" themselves as being safe. Is that a new thing? Or just first time one of these type events has happened in a place where I'm from?


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## macNcheese (Jun 12, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Seems Facebook is giving options for people that live there to "mark" themselves as being safe. Is that a new thing? Or just first time one of these type events has happened in a place where I'm from?


It's been around for a while. They use it for natural disasters too


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## Etype (Jun 12, 2016)

ke4gde said:


> Agreed, but they are not trained to rush in willy nilly. The protocol typically taught in Florida for an active shooter is for the first 4 officers to immediately form an entry team and advance, with the fifth taking incident command to direct other incoming units. If a hostage situation emerges and a suspect is barricaded, then typically the protocol is containment until SWAT arrives. Since the source is Fox, I wouldn't put much stock in it yet. As I understand it the off duty cop at the club was the first to engage the bad guy.
> 
> I am looking forward to the after action review and the resulting training changes that will arise from the lessons learned here.


The protocol of containment has proven to be a failed venture over and over again with active shooters.

I just don't know what a cop could be thinking knowing that people are being killed, yet waiting.


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## nobodythank you (Jun 12, 2016)

Etype said:


> The protocol of containment has proven to be a failed venture over and over again with active shooters.
> 
> I just don't know what a cop could be thinking knowing that people are being killed, yet waiting.


That is not what I said. Containment is only done if the shooter is barricaded and not active. If the shooter is still actively shooting, then they will engage. No offense, but if you were not there then you should not pass judgement yet. I seriously doubt the units arriving on scene went to cover and did not work towards taking out the active shooter.


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## Florida173 (Jun 12, 2016)

Plus Orlando doesn't have a full-time SWAT.


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## Etype (Jun 12, 2016)

ke4gde said:


> That is not what I said. Containment is only done if the shooter is barricaded and not active. If the shooter is still actively shooting, then they will engage. No offense, but if you were not there then you should not pass judgement yet. I seriously doubt the units arriving on scene went to cover and did not work towards taking out the active shooter.


The old don't make judgment if you weren't there argument, blah.

eta-
Fox just released scanner audio of an officer giving the command to take, "a position of cover, if I can still see your face, you're not in a position of cover."

Basically saying don't maintain SA, bury your head in the sand and wait.


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## Brill (Jun 12, 2016)

Etype said:


> The old don't make judgment if you weren't there argument, blah.
> 
> eta-
> Fox just released scanner audio of an officer giving the command to take, "a position of cover, if I can still see your face, you're not in a position of cover."
> ...



Sounds like they need remedial practice with reacting to near ambush.


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## nobodythank you (Jun 12, 2016)

Etype said:


> The old don't make judgment if you weren't there argument, blah.
> 
> eta-
> Fox just released scanner audio of an officer giving the command to take, "a position of cover, if I can still see your face, you're not in a position of cover."
> ...


Fox is about as reliable as MSNBC. The local Fox affiliate played the audio from the off duty officer who was engaging the shooter. Military and law enforcement engagement tactics are night and day. 

Look, I understand you're pissed at what happened. We all are, but don't spout off about things you know nothing about yet. All I am trying to do is provide a perspective of what the training and protocols dictate in this state for this scenario. If the IC on the scene gave the call to take cover, then there must have been a reason. If it was a bad call he will pay for it. However, the information released so far indicates that the off duty officer on scene and the initial responding officers were actively engaged in combat. The first supervisor to arrive on scene was a SWAT officer and a LT. Again, this information is from local news stations that are on the ground and not a national news service.

Almost none of the officers I have worked with in the past, or the training given in this state, is geared towards waiting while people are dying. Quite frankly, it is an insult to insinuate such when the puzzle is still incomplete.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 12, 2016)

We don't know what the Orlando PD policy is for an active shooter, but the game changer is when it became a hostage situation. If that is in fact what happened.

Sounds like the off duty LEO fired on the suspect in response to an active shooter, and the suspect lit him up heavy and retreated back inside, so the officer on scene probably decided "we need everybody". From there it probably devolved into who is in charge, how many people do we have and where, how many armed suspects and how many hostages, etc. It doesn't take 3 hours to come up with armored vehicles and a couple of tac-teams. My guess, is they were trying to figure out what the hell was going on. All the witnesses were probably drunk and unreliable, leaving them no choice but to proceed with great caution. 

I'm sure it will all come out in the wash, and a few lower level officers will get blamed, probably who ever was telling other to take cover. Bottom line, that's a shit sandwich to be dealing with at 0200 hours, probably after working a regular shift. Probably standing there with a pistol an a couple magazines, no rifle or plate carrier in the car, and some asshole lights you up with AK/AR. All while a bunch of feminine dudes are running around screaming help my boyfriend and OMG type shit. Fucking WTF overload!!!

I feel for that cop...


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## TLDR20 (Jun 12, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Plus Orlando doesn't have a full-time SWAT.



How? They have So many amusement parks and assorted hotels?


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## Florida173 (Jun 12, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> How? They have So many amusement parks and assorted hotels?



No kidding. I believe Florida only has three full-time SWAT teams, unless things have changed in the past five years.


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## DA SWO (Jun 12, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Homophobia is homophobia no matter who perpetrates it, and murder is murder.  Nobody is trying to "justify" anything.


Homophobia is a bad term as phobia usually means a fear of.
The shooter was filled with hate, and rather than avoid people he hated, he elected to "confront" them and teach them a lesson.
No different than the Muslim shooters in Garland or San Bernardino.

Let's see what Imam Obama has to say.
(Gun control is the solution, unless the shooter is Christian, then tolerance is required)


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## Florida173 (Jun 12, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Homophobia is a bad term as phobia usually means a fear of.
> The shooter was filled with hate, and rather than avoid people he hated, he elected to "confront" them and teach them a lesson.
> No different than the Muslim shooters in Garland or San Bernardino.
> 
> ...



insert perfect opportunity for the newly founded gun control group to speak up


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## Salt USMC (Jun 12, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Homophobia is a bad term as phobia usually means a fear of.


Hate to be pedantic about dictionary definitions, but "Homophobia" encompases more than simple fear.  It's an example a word in the English lexicon evolving beyond its latin roots

Definition of HOMOPHOBIA


> :  irrational fear of, aversion to, or discrimination against homosexuality or homosexuals


Regardless, it's the most precise word we have to describe this kind of attitude.  Moreso on the topic, this is a terrible act and it pains me to see that we still go through this.


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## Etype (Jun 12, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> ... Imam Obama...


Since he decides to tell us what Islam is and what it means, he could be a mufti- The Grand Mufti of America.


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## AWP (Jun 12, 2016)

Whatever we think of the guy, let's not go down the name-calling path.


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## Florida173 (Jun 12, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Regardless, it's the most precise word we have to describe this kind of attitude.


Ends up being intellectually lazy when we start changing definitions. Possibly in a sense, it still applies as a fear though. They are afraid of what homisexuality would do to their culture. Especially considering the fact that it would give a name to some cultural trappings you find in places like Afghanistan that we would consider homosexual and pedophilia.



Etype said:


> Since he decides to tell us what Islam is and what it means, he could be a mufti- The Grand Mufti of America.


I thought that was NASA's job. Did I misunderstand that?


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 12, 2016)

...anyway, back on track:

The shooter was known to the FBI -

Omar Mateen, Terrorist Who Attacked Orlando Gay Club, Had Been Investigated by FBI


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## Florida173 (Jun 12, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> ...anyway, back on track:
> 
> The shooter was known to the FBI -
> 
> Omar Mateen, Terrorist Who Attacked Orlando Gay Club, Had Been Investigated by FBI





> The deadliest single-person mass murder in American history before Orlando occured in Bath, Michigan, in 1927, when a man bombed a school, killing 44 people.


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## Brill (Jun 12, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Whatever we think of the guy, let's not go down the name-calling path.



@Etype 's description is actually accurate and not a slight at all.  A mufti's role is to "decipher" the Qur'an for the uneducated.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 12, 2016)

Huh.  From just two months ago...

<nothing to see here>


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## Salt USMC (Jun 12, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Ends up being intellectually lazy when we start changing definitions. Possibly in a sense, it still applies as a fear though. They are afraid of what homisexuality would do to their culture. Especially considering the fact that it would give a name to some cultural trappings you find in places like Afghanistan that we would consider homosexual and pedophilia.


Hardly.  English is an evolving language, and sometimes words change to fit the cultural milieu.  It's just the nature of our language. Is English Changing? | Linguistic Society of America


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## Kraut783 (Jun 12, 2016)

911 call from suspect prior to shooting has him pledging to ISIS   :wall:


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## Kraut783 (Jun 12, 2016)

He had an agenda and decided to get his 72 virgins in the process....


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## Etype (Jun 12, 2016)

What a challenge for EMS and the hospital. I'm sure they do mass casualty drills, but over 50 wounded is crazy. 

You don't even expect to see upwards of 100 US casualties in the Iraq or Afghanistan; in fact, I don't think there has ever been such an event.

Just transporting them has to be a nightmare.

I'm sure @policemedic , @Muppet and others can atest to how hard it must have been for them.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 12, 2016)

I recently saw an article that stated trauma and ER nurses have a higher percentage of PTS than the overall military.  Imagine a day like this would go a long way towards that.

*TO ADD:
*
Here is a link to the story I read:  CU Researchers Helping ICU Nurses Manage Burnout & PTSD


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## Etype (Jun 12, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I recently saw an article that stated trauma and ER nurses have a higher percentage of PTS than the overall military.  Imagine a day like this would go a long way towards that.


I believe it, they don't get to come home and decompress for 6 months. They go back 12 hours (or maybe less) later.


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## policemedic (Jun 12, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> No kidding. I believe Florida only has three full-time SWAT teams, unless things have changed in the past five years.



This is incorrect and misleading. I am aware of several full-time teams in Florida.   Being on a team that is assigned collateral duties--part time is a misnomer in my view--doesn't imply reduced capability or availability. 

Side note: the Orlando chief of police is a former SWAT officer and served as the team's commander for quite a while.


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## Salt USMC (Jun 12, 2016)

The bodies of the victims are barely cold and Trump is pulling this bullshit.

Donald J. Trump on Twitter


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## Gunz (Jun 12, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> ...anyway, back on track:
> 
> The shooter was known to the FBI -
> 
> Omar Mateen, Terrorist Who Attacked Orlando Gay Club, Had Been Investigated by FBI




Twice a Person of Interest and yet worked licensed armed security.


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## Florida173 (Jun 12, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> The bodies of the victims are barely cold and Trump is pulling this bullshit.
> 
> Donald J. Trump on Twitter



Haters are going to hate anything he says.. who cares.


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## Gunz (Jun 12, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> The bodies of the victims are barely cold and Trump is pulling this bullshit.
> 
> Donald J. Trump on Twitter





Florida politicos crawled out from under the rocks to get their mugs on national TV for this media feeding frenzy. I'm sure in the coming days Hillary will exploit the situation to advance her campaign and her gun control agenda. Politicians are gonna do what politicians do. Trump is not alone in this by any means.

BTW, the shooter is a registered Democrat.


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## Rapid (Jun 12, 2016)

Remove kebab.


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## Marine0311 (Jun 12, 2016)

Rest in Peace to the victims and prayers to the families.

Hunt down the rest and wipe them all out.

I am interested to hear what LEOs have to say about the actions/reactions of those who went in.


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## Etype (Jun 12, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> The bodies of the victims are barely cold and Trump is pulling this bullshit.
> 
> Donald J. Trump on Twitter


And your amigo, B.O., won't even say Islamic extremist or island terrorist.

Another example of Democrat delusion.

ETA-
Trump beat me to it.


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## Muppet (Jun 12, 2016)

Etype said:


> What a challenge for EMS and the hospital. I'm sure they do mass casualty drills, but over 50 wounded is crazy.
> 
> You don't even expect to see upwards of 100 US casualties in the Iraq or Afghanistan; in fact, I don't think there has ever been such an event.
> 
> ...



Yep. I don't care how many MCI drills, how many times you practice, NO EMS/fire or PD service will be absolutely prepared for this and the amount of injured and dead. Talk about city/county wide code red status, not to mention mutual aid (will all be at scene) also having to cover the local for regular bullshit emergencies. Just a matter of time when it hits Philly region. I don't think we get enough practice, though we do now carry MCI TCCC type bags on each MICU, many malls here now have, similar to AED's on walls, now have pelican boxs full of TCCC supplies on walls next to AED's also.

This was a soft target, as always. These fucking cowards won't hit a NRA membership meeting or gun show, they hit soft targets like the pussies they are. Just another reason, I won't go to soft targets or if I do and they have the "no guns allowed", I say, fuck you, if I need to be there, I take the chance. I will not go down w/o a fight.

M.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 12, 2016)

Boy I wish someone would have helped Trump sit this one out for a few hours...or at least take the reigns on his Twitter account.

...and here you go...

What We Know About the Role of ISIS in the Orlando Shootings


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## Florida173 (Jun 12, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Boy I wish someone would have helped Trump sit this one out for a few hours...or at least take the reigns on his Twitter account.


Why? The tweet before it and that tweet have over 40k likes each. Because a few hundred people are making it into something else?


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## SpongeBob*24 (Jun 12, 2016)

Leaders want to lead...Trump is calling this what it is, a terrorist act....

POTUS is sitting the side lines trying not to piss off democrats....:-"

Hillary is looking for an e-mail that talks about this so she can reply all....:wall:


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 12, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Why? The tweet before it and that tweet have over 40k likes each. Because a few hundred people are making it into something else?



Because obviously everyone is waiting for him to say something, how about just once a politician actually give it few hours and then comes out with a statement. 

"Appreciate the congratulations"  why would you even reference that, show some class. 50+ people are dead, this is not the time to be over-the-top Donald Trump. Of course, Trump is always been over-the-top that is one of the things that makes him so popular.  I guess in my fantasy world I want a certain perception of class from my president, Trump does not offer that to me. 

Truth be told, Trump would not be my first choice, and Hillary is definitely not my first choice, I don't know what the fuck to do in November.


----------



## Salt USMC (Jun 12, 2016)

Etype said:


> And your amigo, B.O., won't even say Islamic extremist or island terrorist.


I'm glad!  It hasn't even been a day since the incident occurred.  Remember the aftermath of Benghazi when the news media were clamoring for an explanation and the administration went with the first (incorrect) report?  He was absolutely excoriated for it, and the whole affair mutated and took on a life of its own.  Look if it is, in fact, Islamic terrorism, the President should say so.  But he should not be beholden to the media's time standard and start popping off his mouth before the facts are in.  He's done it before and it's only caused a load of asspain for the country.


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## Gunz (Jun 12, 2016)

Bernie Sanders on _Meet the Press _says the real culprit behind the Orlando shootings is the fact that Americans can buy "automatic weapons that are designed to kill people." :wall::youllpay:


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## Etype (Jun 12, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> ... if it is, in fact, Islamic terrorism, the President should say so...


We already know it is, according to the gunman himself and his 911 call.  

Is it dark under the rock where liberals live, or do you light the area using solar energy?


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## racing_kitty (Jun 12, 2016)

Looks like a staff attorney for the ACLU has decided it's the conservative Christians' fault after all...


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## DA SWO (Jun 12, 2016)

I am not pro-gay or anti-gay.
But I am smart enough to know Obama/Clinton and a host of others will use this to advance their agenda, so I won't get up in arms when Pro 2A Pols use it to advance their agenda.
I read the last link posted and he worked for a security company and a co-worker complained about his voicing extremist views.  He then hounded that co-worker until he/she quit.
Let's see if we find out he was raping little boys at the detention facility, G4S security has some 'splaining to do.
Let's not forget, even in a gun-free society his job as an armed guard would have given him access to weapons.


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## BloodStripe (Jun 12, 2016)

I'm still waiting for a Facebook American Flag profile picture to appear like they did with France.  Though I suspect it won't be an American Flag but a LGBT flag instead.


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## ThunderHorse (Jun 13, 2016)

If this is the world we live in, we must fight fire well.  We must make our society more free.  We must teach the value of life from the very beginning, because that seems to be what we're missing.  Whether it's Islamic terrorism or not, there is a segment of this world that seems not to care about it.  

But I just enjoy how the Democrats go after the guns when this happens, which causes a lot on the gun owning side of the spectrum to jump up in protection of our rights.  I think the NRA and others might be able to end this nonsense by placing the focus on the value of life.


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## Beagle (Jun 13, 2016)

The FBI need to investigate the father; hopefully a more in-dept investigation then the son.  Yes I do know how investigation works, your results will vary depending on analyst, agent, group supervisor, prosecutor and hq policy plus many other variables.  

*Orlando suspect’s father hosted a TV show and now pretends to be Afghanistan’s president*
Orlando suspect’s father hosted a TV show and now pretends to be Afghanistan’s president

- Afghan man who holds strong political views, including support for the Afghan Taliban.

- “Our brothers in Waziristan, our warrior brothers in [the] Taliban movement and national Afghan Taliban are rising up,” he said. “Inshallah the Durand Line issue will be solved soon.”

*Terrorist's father youtube channel*
Seddique Mateen

the US need to go after ISIS and their supporters.  But instead it's the gun's fault.  I've heard a lady call the AR-15 a machine gun....wow.  Then you got the anti-assault weapon hunters.  After the "assault rifles" are banned next up will be sniper rifle.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 13, 2016)

Beagle said:


> the US need to go after ISIS and their supporters.  But instead it's the gun's fault.  I've heard a lady call the AR-15 a machine gun....wow.  Then you got the anti-assault weapon hunters.  After the "assault rifles" are banned next up will be sniper rifle.



Make no mistake about it, the left wants everything banned. We don't have a gun problem, we have a crazy people problem....and by that I mean the left. If we enforced the laws on the books and applied a little common sense, these shooting wouldn't be happening.


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## Brill (Jun 13, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> I'm glad!  It hasn't even been a day since the incident occurred.  Remember the aftermath of Benghazi when the news media were clamoring for an explanation and the administration went with the first (incorrect) report?  He was absolutely excoriated for it, and the whole affair mutated and took on a life of its own.  Look if it is, in fact, Islamic terrorism, the President should say so.  But he should not be beholden to the media's time standard and start popping off his mouth before the facts are in.  He's done it before and it's only caused a load of asspain for the country.



My memory was that the American people were the one's who wanted answers because the idea that a video incited attacks with SA and IDF didn't pass the smell test.

Americans are fed up with the lies coming from DC and appear to be drawn to someone who seems honest (or at least shares similar viewpoints).

I read your post as Americans want Obama to be a leader.



Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Make no mistake about it, the left wants everything banned. We don't have a gun problem, we have a crazy people problem....and by that I mean the left. If we enforced the laws on the books and applied a little common sense, these shooting wouldn't be happening.



Low viz armed guards inside! We have Air Marshals on acft why not have non-Fed guards in "gun free zones"?


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## Marauder06 (Jun 13, 2016)

Will Orlando mean an expansion of the war against ISIS?  And if it does, what form will it take?



> It’s time to bring to bear the full fury of the U.S. military and destroy those who wish to destroy us, and not erode our own constitutional rights in the process. The gauntlet they’ve thrown down is simple: it’s either them or us.  They’ve made their choice, it’s your move . . . .


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## macNcheese (Jun 13, 2016)

What solution is there to lone wolf attacks? Full access to our personal life is basically it. Unless we're all going to allow that... It's going to keep happening. I'll gladly sacrifice my privacy if it saves lives.


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## Gunz (Jun 13, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Make no mistake about it, the left wants everything banned. We don't have a gun problem, we have a crazy people problem....and by that I mean the left. If we enforced the laws on the books and applied a little common sense, these shooting wouldn't be happening.




Maybe not shootings...but Islamic terrorists don't need guns to kill a lot of people. 

We are so fucking afraid of offending our enemies. This guy was _*on the radar.*_ And still he was able to carry this out.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 13, 2016)

macNcheese said:


> I'll gladly sacrifice my privacy if it saves lives.



Really?  

Well you go right ahead and do that - and think about what you are saying...seriously .


.


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## macNcheese (Jun 13, 2016)

Why not? I don't have anything to hide?


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## CDG (Jun 13, 2016)

"They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
-Benjamin Franklin


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## DA SWO (Jun 13, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Will Orlando mean an expansion of the war against ISIS?  And if it does, what form will it take?


No, we won't do shit in an effort to prove we are not "anti-muslim".
Maybe the Gay Community will start to wake up.


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## macNcheese (Jun 13, 2016)

CDG said:


> "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> -Benjamin Franklin


Damn. A Benjamin Franklin quote. That's pretty good. But completely flushing out ISIS in the US isn't temporary safety. Also this might be he wrong topic to quote someone who didn't know their assistant was a spy


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 13, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Maybe the Gay Community will start to wake up.



Who knew the Gay Community had their own gun group?

Pink Pistols Statement on Orlando Gay Club Massacre - The Truth About Guns


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## Gunz (Jun 13, 2016)

CDG said:


> "They who can give up essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety deserve neither liberty nor safety."
> -Benjamin Franklin



That's the rub.

The only problem with it is that Ben didn't foresee mass-casualty terrorism. I'm not saying we should curtail any of our BOR freedoms--not in the least--only that sometimes 18th Century laws have to be amended or updated to help counter 21st Century threats. And we have done it from time-to-time.


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## The Hate Ape (Jun 13, 2016)

The only things that require an update in this country are citizenships, education standards, and moral courage. Releasing your data for the government to view is equally uninteresting as it is unhelpful in curbing terrorism 99.9% of the time. As stated, the guy was on the radar - odds are the Gov saw a lot more than they care to release and still

We (our gov/country/society) need to stop worrying about offending everyone and/or using it as a scapegoat to inaction. In all three aspects, there is a complete lack of accountability. Also you playing the little submissive citizen role who wants to give up their rights to "flush ISIS" is just adorable.


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## DocIllinois (Jun 13, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> That's the rub.
> 
> The only problem with it is that Ben didn't foresee mass-casualty terrorism. I'm not saying we should curtail any of our BOR freedoms--not in the least--only that sometimes 18th Century laws have to be amended or updated to help counter 21st Century threats. And we have done it from time-to-time.



Exactly my thought.

Ben's administration wasn't fighting a group of people with a holy book that sets the stage for aggressive religious conflict on nearly every page.

Our enemy will use our current laws and humanity against us, sooner rather than later.  Its what I'd do if I were fighting a powerhouse like the U.S.


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## AWP (Jun 13, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Who knew the Gay Community had their own gun group?
> 
> Pink Pistols Statement on Orlando Gay Club Massacre - The Truth About Guns



A good friend of mine is a lesbian and active in the community. She and her wife also regularly go to the gun range and post the results on Facebook where many of their gay and lesbian friends congratulate them on shooting, ask about guns, etc. I honestly think if Republicans would stop their nonsense with the gay and lesbian community they would find themselves with an influx of voters.

----

If we're going to say "More surveillance" then we might as well take the 4th Amendment and throw it away. After that we can do the same with the other Amendments. Screw that pesky Constitution because freedom and 'Merica.

We'd be better served by upholding what Bush said years ago. "With us or against" us and start addressing our frenemies like Qatar, Pakistan, and Saudi Arabia. The West needs to wake up. I'm tired of the killing but I'm equally, if not more, tired of the shock and outrage. This isn't a new problem, our tears and hand-wringing aren't enough, and while we can't kill our way out of this problem we need to go old school Game of Thrones on these people. The carrot is mighty tasty after you've taken the stick.

I missed the interview and it is probably for the best. If anyone needs to weigh in on the subject, it is Hamid Karzai. 

Orlando shootings: Afghan background not an issue - Karzai - BBC News


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 13, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> That's the rub.
> 
> The only problem with it is that Ben didn't foresee mass-casualty terrorism. I'm not saying we should curtail any of our BOR freedoms--not in the least--only that sometimes 18th Century laws have to be amended or updated to help counter 21st Century threats. And we have done it from time-to-time.





DocIllinois said:


> Exactly my thought.
> 
> Ben's administration wasn't fighting a group of people with a holy book that sets the stage for aggressive religious conflict on nearly every page.
> 
> Our enemy will use our current laws and humanity against us, sooner rather than later.  Its what I'd do if I were fighting a powerhouse like the U.S.




No disrespect to either of you, but you both are wrong. Less we forget our fights with the native Americans. 

The difference is we were civilized back than, but not when it came to our enemies. We were ruthless back than when fighting terrorism/insurgency style fights. And it wasn't just a Military effort, everyone got involved.

$.02


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## DocIllinois (Jun 13, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> No disrespect to either of you, but you both are wrong. Less we forget our fights with the native Americans.
> 
> The difference is were civilized back than, but not when it came to our enemies. We were ruthless back than when fighting terrorism/insurgency style fights. And it wasn't just a Military effort, everyone got involved.
> 
> $.02



I'm wrong in saying that our enemy will use our humanity against us when that's what they are already doing.  Interesting.

We do need to become more ruthless in fighting our enemy, IMO.  We may lose some of our humaneness in the process, but it must be done if we are to not see our way of life destroyed altogether.


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## Queeg (Jun 13, 2016)

macNcheese said:


> Why not? I don't have anything to hide?



"Arguing that you don't care about the right to privacy because you have nothing to hide is no different than saying you don't care about free speech because you have nothing to say."


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## R.Caerbannog (Jun 13, 2016)

I think @Diamondback was saying that terrorism isn't a new thing, the Indian Wars and all the other small conflicts on the frontier are a pretty good indicators of our growing pains as a country. As for getting a handle on Islamic terrorism, I dunno. For the most part the military has been doing a good job of dropping bodies. However we suck at getting the public to care, apathy on that part is a huge issue for us.

Edit /add on: ditto on total engagement. These Islamic zealots are holding us back as a species.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 13, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> I'm still waiting for a Facebook American Flag profile picture to appear like they did with France.  Though I suspect it won't be an American Flag but a LGBT flag instead.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 13, 2016)

DocIllinois said:


> I'm wrong in saying that our enemy will use our humanity against us when that's what they are already doing.  Interesting.
> 
> We do need to become more ruthless in fighting our enemy, IMO.  We may lose some of our humaneness in the process, but it must be done if we are to not see our way of life destroyed altogether.



No I was saying you both are wrong about Ben Franklin not facing terrorism styled conflict during his time. Hints my comments.

Our humanity needs proper focus and definition. It's not humane to allow your own society to be killed, in order to not insult a culture or religion, who is in fact waging war against you. 

But its a moot point as long as half the country wants pussyfoot around with the religion of peace, we will continue to see these types of attacks.


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## policemedic (Jun 13, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> I'm glad!  It hasn't even been a day since the incident occurred.  Remember the aftermath of Benghazi when the news media were clamoring for an explanation and the administration went with the first (incorrect) report?  He was absolutely excoriated for it, and the whole affair mutated and took on a life of its own.  Look if it is, in fact, Islamic terrorism, the President should say so.  But he should not be beholden to the media's time standard and start popping off his mouth before the facts are in.  He's done it before and it's only caused a load of asspain for the country.



I understand the point you're trying to make.  No one wants POTUS or any official to put out inaccurate information.

The difference here is that where Benghazi is concerned, POTUS and SECSTATE and their minions outright lied.


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## Gunz (Jun 13, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> No disrespect to either of you, but you both are wrong. Less we forget our fights with the native Americans.
> 
> The difference is we were civilized back than, but not when it came to our enemies. We were ruthless back than when fighting terrorism/insurgency style fights. And it wasn't just a Military effort, everyone got involved.
> 
> $.02



I agree with your 2nd para.

Native Americans were not capable of killing in the numbers present-day terrorists are, they had no explosives, there was no threat they could get their hands on nuclear or biological weapons, they couldn't use hijacked jetliners as flying bombs. They could massacre and scalp a whole village but their weapons were tinker toys compared to what we faced on 9/11 and what we might be confronted with in the future. These motherfuckers would love to get their hands on a WMD, and I'm convinced they will get one...eventually...and when they get it they'll use it. All due respect to our brilliant Founding Fathers but they couldn't have anticipated this.

We need to find some formula that makes this country a dangerous place for terrorists without eroding our basic freedoms beyond recognition. I don't know if that's possible. In any case, we're gonna need more bodybags.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 13, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> I agree with your 2nd para.
> 
> Native Americans were not capable of killing in the numbers present-day terrorists are, they had no explosives, there was no threat they could get their hands on nuclear or biological weapons, they couldn't use hijacked jetliners as flying bombs. They could massacre and scalp a whole village but their weapons were tinker toys compared to what we faced on 9/11 and what we might be confronted with in the future. These motherfuckers would love to get their hands on a WMD, and I'm convinced they will get one...eventually...and when they get it they'll use it. All due respect to our brilliant Founding Fathers but they couldn't have anticipated this.
> 
> We need to find some formula that makes this country a dangerous place for terrorists without eroding our basic freedoms beyond recognition. I don't know if that's possible. In any case, we're gonna need more bodybags.



I agree with WMD aspect, but the mass killings happened back than, just not on the same level. I also agree we are going to need a lot of body bags, as this is just the beginning. This shit is going to get worse and worse over the next few years. 

We have to hunt them down and kill them. Hey you contact a terrorist organization or associate, you're the enemy, and will die a traitors death. Put the fear into them, that they will be caught for any contact whatsoever and publicly tried by military tribunal and executed for treason, and see how many of these guys want still be lone wolfs. After the first few are shot in town square, small town USA, see how many parents let their children hang out with extremists or social media with Ali Auk bar.

The ideology simply needs to be crushed completely overseas. ISIS, AQ, Boko, etc. Go on the hunt and wipe them out. If you associate, you die. No more nation building, no more Army building, no more negotiations with assholes, just hit them fast, hit them hard, and got them often.


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## AWP (Jun 13, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Orlando mosque tied to case Hillary’s State Dept scrubbed
> 
> Someone originally sent me the above but it was linked from InfoWars and I refuse to use them as a credible source.  Did some Googling and found the above site, which I am not familiar with but wanted to at least share it.
> 
> ...



WND and Infowars....I'd trust neither without more mainstream coverage. Something, anything other than those two.


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## AWP (Jun 13, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @Freefalling - okay.  I've not heard of WND, did not know they are in the same category...more to follow if I can find a better source. <post deleted>



WND is to the right of Fox and mixes the unsubstantiated in with the sensational and actual news items. There are days when they make Fox look like HuffPo.


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## Brill (Jun 13, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> If we're going to say "More surveillance" then we might as well take the 4th Amendment and throw it away. After that we can do the same with the other Amendments. Screw that pesky Constitution because freedom and 'Merica.



4th or 2nd cuz we're going to have to pick on. Someone has to pay for these events so why not individual freedoms/protections?


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## Gunz (Jun 13, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I agree with WMD aspect, but the mass killings happened back than, just not on the same level. I also agree we are going to need a lot of body bags, as this is just the beginning. This shit is going to get worse and worse over the next few years.
> 
> We have to hunt them down and kill them. Hey you contact a terrorist organization or associate, you're the enemy, and will die a traitors death. Put the fear into them, that they will be caught for any contact whatsoever and publicly tried by military tribunal and executed for treason, and see how many of these guys want still be lone wolfs. After the first few are shot in town square, small town USA, see how many parents let their children hang out with extremists or social media with Ali Auk bar.
> 
> The ideology simply needs to be crushed completely overseas. ISIS, AQ, Boko, etc. Go on the hunt and wipe them out. If you associate, you die. No more nation building, no more Army building, no more negotiations with assholes, just hit them fast, hit them hard, and got them often.



I think, eventually, if we're going to  survive as a nation, we'll have to get proactive, like Israel...identify them, incarcerate them or kill them. Lots of  violations of what our gentlemen forefathers would've considered fair play. Would it impact some freedom for the average citizen? Probably. But you bend with the breeze or you break. Israel is still a democracy. But they've found a tolerable balance between freedom and security.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 13, 2016)

macNcheese said:


> What solution is there to lone wolf attacks? Full access to our personal life is basically it. Unless we're all going to allow that... It's going to keep happening. *I'll gladly sacrifice my privacy if it saves lives.*



I won't.


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## Florida173 (Jun 13, 2016)

It's not about more surveillance, it's about better analysts identifying indications & warnings with a CT nexus. I don't have much faith in the typical government employee to protect me.

There is so much fail involving this case that it makes me lose faith in what we can do domestically to protect people. Hit me up on PM if you have a .MIL or .GOV email


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## AWP (Jun 13, 2016)

As I type this Fox News' top 5 trending stories:

1. What happened to Meg Ryan's face?
2 and 3 are related to this topic.
4. The "Nazi Titanic.
5. The Jesse Ventura/ American sniper appeal.

Meg Ryan's face... 'Merica.


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## Brill (Jun 13, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> It's not about more surveillance, it's about better analysts identifying indications & warnings with a CT nexus. I don't have much faith in the typical government employee to protect me.



WTF???  OOOOOOOHHHHHH...I'll be back...special at Starbucks!  (turns on Out of Office in Outlook for rest of day)


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## DocIllinois (Jun 13, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> As I type this Fox News' top 5 trending stories:
> 
> 1. What happened to Meg Ryan's face?
> 2 and 3 are related to this topic.
> ...


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## RackMaster (Jun 13, 2016)

Up here, all the media can talk about this horrific incident is taking our guns away and the evil AR-15.  Then within the firearms community there's the whole group of tinfoil hat idiots going on about how this is a "false flag" just to take our guns away.  These are the same morons that think Sandy Hook was the same and 911 was an inside job.  

Why can't idiots focus on the terrorist and his terrorist buddies.


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## Florida173 (Jun 13, 2016)

A friend of mine's niece was at the club. Not doing so well. She got hit a few times


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## Marine0311 (Jun 13, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> A friend of mine's niece was at the club. Not doing so well. She got hit a few times



Ouch. My thought and prayers please.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jun 13, 2016)

I think the look back in history, and the take over of the American Native Indians lands is an idea to think about. It is happening again, just using differest tactics. When we took over the Eastcoast, and the inland areas later on, Europeans took over by law of mass action. The larger mass displaces the smaller mass. We just moved from the Atlantic to the Pacific slowly with large numbers of people. Our invasion was assured by a well trained military with the goal of containing the "enemy" in smaller plots of land.

We are being invaded again. Pretty much the same reasoning, which a pure hatred of our religious practices, and the freedom our laws assure us.  The people who are attacking us are doing so for similar reasons we did over the Native Americans, who we described as savages. Make no mistake, our Nation is under attack, and has been since 9/11. They are not going away, and are growing their numbers every day. The longer our citizens vote in people who do not see the threat, the greater of an advantage we give to those killing people in our country. The more that is made of taking our firearms, the greater the advantage we give to the terrorists who are here, meaning to kill us, and take over our Nation.

It is time to look at the "random" acts of terrorism for what it is, an invasion by people who hate us and want us dead.  The number of deaths per incident are climbing. The number of attacks will increase, and as things stand now, our leadership is not responding in kind. We are loosing people at ever increasing numbers. What doe s that tell people. The answer is  what the media decides it is, and "Whatever is Politically Correct".

My $.02. Back to my wee cave in The Valley.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 13, 2016)

Is it time to "embrace violence" in the effort against ISIS?



> For those who embrace violence, the ability to see those that embrace evil comes through as clear as a beautiful desert sky after that rare torrential downpour…
> 
> …because for those who embrace violence, the ones who chose to embrace evil share the same blood.


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## DA SWO (Jun 13, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> A friend of mine's niece was at the club. Not doing so well. She got hit a few times


Very sorry to hear that.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jun 13, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Is it time to "embrace violence" in the effort against ISIS?



I wish I could Mega agree. The problem is the ability of ISIS to hide among the sheeple until they have everything in place. It seems our CONUS intel needs some help. There were concerns about the Orlando shooter that were very specific, and made known in advance. I don't know what the answer is.


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## DA SWO (Jun 13, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I wish I could Mega agree. The problem is the ability of ISIS to hide among the sheeple until they have everything in place. It seems our CONUS intel needs some help. There were concerns about the Orlando shooter that were very specific, and made known in advance. I don't know what the answer is.


Maybe not give a pass because someone is Muslim and you are afraid they will scream discrimination.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 13, 2016)

> 18 U.S. Code § 2381 - Treason
> 
> Whoever, owing allegiance to the United States, levies war against them or adheres to their enemies, giving them aid and comfort within the United States or elsewhere, is guilty of treason and shall suffer death, or shall be imprisoned not less than five years and fined under this title but not less than $10,000; and shall be incapable of holding any office under the United States.


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## RackMaster (Jun 13, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> A friend of mine's niece was at the club. Not doing so well. She got hit a few times



Sorry to hear, I hope she recovers.


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## Kheenbish (Jun 13, 2016)

Didn't know if this warranted it's own thread, so I figured I'd throw it in here. Possible ISIS linked attack in Paris, policeman and wife killed by neighbor who allegedly pledged allegiance to ISIS. These lone wolf attacks are becoming all to frequent.

Paris policeman and wife killed in possible Isis-linked terror attack

Paris policeman and wife killed in possible Isis-linked terror attack


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## Florida173 (Jun 13, 2016)

Careful. I wouldn't yet classify it as a lone wolf attack.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 13, 2016)

Every time I read "lone wolf" I'm always thinking:


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## CDG (Jun 13, 2016)

macNcheese said:


> Damn. A Benjamin Franklin quote. That's pretty good. But completely flushing out ISIS in the US isn't temporary safety. Also this might be he wrong topic to quote someone who didn't know their assistant was a spy



Explain how giving up personal freedoms will completely flush ISIS out in the US and then keep them from coming back.  Your last sentence is completely irrelevant to the conversation.  Your POV is short-sighted, ignorant, and dangerous.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 13, 2016)

We obviously need the tools and resources to track and investigate suspected terrorists. But we also need to convict and sentence them and their accomplices to the full extent of the law. Hints my treason post. Take this Orlando shooters wife, father and everyone else who knew what he was doing, and toss their ass in prison, fine them into poverty, and execute where ever possible. Send the message that if you assist, harbor, do not report, and you're a citizen, you will be treated worse then our enemies. Make it so unbearably crushing that, nobody would risk protecting or assisting these assholes. Seize every possession, revoked citizenship, zero benefits, and never able to work as anything more than a street sweeper or garbage man. No drivers license again, ever, no ability to own property, no education, no nothing. You are not a second class citizen or even a migrant, you are now a traitor...period.


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## Muppet (Jun 13, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> A friend of mine's niece was at the club. Not doing so well. She got hit a few times



Prayers sent.

M.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jun 14, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> A friend of mine's niece was at the club. Not doing so well. She got hit a few times



I am sorry to hear of  injuries sustained by your friend, may she heal quickly, and return to the life she knew before this horrid event. She will need much support, as the scars inside. will be long lasting. My thoughts and prayers are with your friend.


----------



## Gunz (Jun 14, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Maybe not give a pass because someone is Muslim and you are afraid they will scream discrimination.




 Proactive, like Mossad. Identify, confirm, study, surveil, OPLAN, execute. Principle disappears, fear and dread infect the survivors.


----------



## Brill (Jun 14, 2016)

An interesting reaction to the shooting: crash CIA's front gate?

Mom: Man Who Crashed Into CIA HQ Gate 'Troubled' by Orlando


----------



## Rapid (Jun 14, 2016)

French jihadist police killer 'obeyed Islamic State order' - BBC News

*"The man who killed a French police couple at their home near Paris was acting on an order from so-called Islamic State (IS) to "kill infidels", officials say."*

Why is it, again, that the French (and their President) are quite quick to attribute these types of attacks to Islamic terrorism... while most American media outlets (and _their_ President) seem to be working in overdrive to find other excuses for these types of attacks? Mental health, homophobia (there are stories now saying he was a repressed homosexual who acted out his anger), it's a 'gun control issue', etc.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 14, 2016)

Regardless of what you think of Obama, it is difficult to say he has been soft on terrorism. Especially if you account for drone-strikes and SOF use. 

That said, when he speaks he does everything he can to avoid using trigger phrases such as "radical Islam", why?  Is it really just because he does not want to acknowledge there are cells here and is trying to keep a WW2 Japanese internment camp from happening , or is it something more politically international?


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 14, 2016)

May


Ooh-Rah said:


> Regardless of what you think of Obama, it is difficult to say he has been soft on terrorism. Especially if you account for drone-strikes and SOF use.
> 
> That said, when he speaks he does everything he can to avoid using trigger phrases such as "radical Islam", why?  Is it really just because he does not want to acknowledge there are cells here and is trying to keep a WW2 Japanese internment camp from happening , or is it something more politically international?



Maybe it is a Voldemort thing...


----------



## AWP (Jun 14, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Regardless of what you think of Obama, it is difficult to say he has been soft on terrorism. Especially if you account for drone-strikes and SOF use.
> 
> That said, when he speaks he does everything he can to avoid using trigger phrases such as "radical Islam", why?  Is it really just because he does not want to acknowledge there are cells here and is trying to keep a WW2 Japanese internment camp from happening , or is it something more politically international?



I have no doubt JSOC and OGA's are doing things we'll never know and I'm fine with that. Our drone strikes are working. So we have these in the Pro column.

Then we have the Con and oh boy do we have a Con.

The Haqqani Network wasn't designated as a terrorist organization until 2012. Ignore the fact that the group was active years before 2012. 2014 saw the US Treasury finally designate the HQN leadership as "Specially Designated Global Terrorists" which opened them to financial sanctions. Bengazi was a movie....oh, nevermind. Not a movie. The reluctance to call anything a terrorist act (San Bernandino and Fort Hood), and Fort Hood is a story unto itself. Remember it was "workplace violence" long before it become "terrorism." Our "friends" in Qatar and Pakistan support terrorists so we of course run the entire air war from Qatar and sent PK over 20 billion dollars since 9/11. Look at the fight in Iraq...it is a sham.

A Pakistani general once said that he wanted Afghanistan during the Soviets to be a pot that boils but doesn't boil over; take it right to the edge before it spills out. I think we're playing a similar game doing one thing, saying another, ignoring the obvious...whatever. Why are we doing this? Are we trying to keep the masses from going nuts? Are we sympathetic to Muslims because of some hidden agenda? Are we just stupid or pandering to human rights groups who want to hug the world? I have no clue, but I can't argue that we're hard on terrorism.


----------



## Brill (Jun 14, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Regardless of what you think of Obama, it is difficult to say he has been soft on terrorism. Especially if you account for drone-strikes and SOF use.



Yazidis, Abu Nur tribesman, and quite a few Shias would strongly disagree with you on that. Libya, Nigeria, Yemen, and Afghanistan have seen a significant rise in IS; ANF is gaining strength, and the Taliban are making a strong comeback.  GITMO recidivism is high.

Random drone strikes don't make a cohesive CT strategy but buys time until 20 Jan 2017 when he can give that problem to ANYONE else.


----------



## AWP (Jun 14, 2016)

The president responds to the phrase "radical Islam."

Obama unleashes on GOP critics over 'radical Islam' term | Fox News



> “Calling a threat by a different name does not make it go away. … There’s no magic to the phrase of radical Islam,” Obama countered Tuesday. “It’s a political talking point.”
> 
> “We don’t have religious tests here,” Obama said, without attacking Trump by name. But answering one of Trump’s most frequent accusations, the president said his reluctance to use *the phrase “radical Islam” has “nothing to do with political correctness and everything to do with actually defeating extremism*.”
> 
> He said groups like ISIS “want to claim that they are the true leaders of over a billion Muslims … who reject their crazy notions,” and *a move to single out Muslims in America “betrays the very values America stands for*.”



Here's the problem, this isn't about America. This is a worldwide problem and we've allegedly taken point in dealing with said problem, yet we won't call it "radical Islam" even though that's exactly what we're facing. A phrase doesn't defeat anything, but we still won't call it for what it is because....? Nonsense. This cockamamie explanation will only give his critics more ammunition. Defeating terrorism makes it sound like we have a strategy which I'm skeptical exists.


----------



## Brill (Jun 14, 2016)

He looks weak not saying what world leaders and everyone, including Muslims, are saying.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jun 14, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> The president responds to the phrase "radical Islam."
> 
> Obama unleashes on GOP critics over 'radical Islam' term | Fox News
> 
> ...



For those with any questions about Politicol Correctness (PC), read obama's words and apply them to what is being discussed. His words change nothing at all, but change what they are called, because it is  a politician saying it is best.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 15, 2016)

Leadership

*<LINK REPAIRED>*


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## DocIllinois (Jun 15, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Leadership



Islam has all the makings of a cult of death.  Radicalism and suicidal jihad are now the highest profile standard by which it relates to the rest of the world; we are indeed all targets barring subjugation or conversion.  

A reading of the Koran will allay doubts about the above sentences.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 15, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> We have a President of the United States named
> 
> Barrack Hussein Obama.



Come on now. Please don't go down that path. It will distract from any solid points you make.


----------



## Totentanz (Jun 15, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Come on now. Please don't go down that path. It will distract from any solid points you make.



Seconded, because a) this thread has more than its share of political discourse, and b) I really don't think that line of discussion will result in anything productive; while the presidency is a powerful entity and has significant influence over US policy, the issues surrounding how this came to pass are on the scale of whole-of-government, not whole-of-Oval-Office.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 16, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I have no doubt JSOC and OGA's are doing things we'll never know and I'm fine with that.



I tend to not trust the government, but I agree with the aspects of rough, honest men, doing bad things to bad people on my behalf. I trust those men to do what is necessary, and say a little prayer for them every night, because I am truly thankful they take on that task, thanklessly. 

Anyway, wanted to isolate this tid-bit for agreement...i also agree with that other bullshit you wrote.


----------



## Gunz (Jun 16, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Come on now. Please don't go down that path. It will distract from any solid points you make.



And yet you just reacted to a mere statement of fact, a man's full given name, with no overt indication of context or inflection, as if it were a trigger phrase. Was it the use of the middle name or the framing?

The discussion had turned to words. Why won't the President state the truth and call our enemies, with whom we've been in open war with for 15 years, what they are? Radical Islamic Jihadists...a term that automatically and clearly indicates they are not law abiding, peace-loving practitioners of the Muslim faith. He won't because just the phrase, as truthful as it is, connotes an image and stimulates a reaction just as my use of his name did in you.

Either way it's just a name.

DocIllinois, who agreed with your admonishment, in the post above mine, wrote that "Islam has all the makings of a cult of death..." Clearly, taken by itself, inflammatory to the average non-violent Muslim. And yet there was more negative reaction to my use of the President's name. I didn't call him a Muslim, peace-loving or otherwise, or say how I felt about him one way or another.

Words have unseen power to impact. The President may be overly cautious with his in regard to terrorist attacks; or he may be exercising good judgement and restraint. 

It's a matter of interpretation.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 16, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> And yet you just reacted to a mere statement of fact, a man's full given name, with no overt indication of context or inflection, as if it were a trigger phrase. Was it the use of the middle name or the framing?



Because...and you know this, 99.99% of the time using his full name like you did in a discussion like this, to include his middle name,  is meant only to insinuate his alleged ties to the Muslim faith.  From the reader is expected to jump to the conclusion that if he is pro-Muslim, and if that's true then he must either be one, or for their agenda.

Powerful words, indeed.

I have yet to receive a satisfactory answer to my question a few posts ago (why won't Obama say what they are?), so I went in search of.  The National Review is not exactly a pro-Obama magazine, infact it has been one of my primary sources of balanced Republican news/doctrine for years.  Worth a read...

The ‘Radical Islam’ Shibboleth, by Ben Shapiro, National Review





.


----------



## Gunz (Jun 16, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Because...and you know this, 99.99% of the time using his full name like you did in a discussion like this, to include his middle name,  is meant only to insinuate his alleged ties to the Muslim faith.  From the reader is expected to jump to the conclusion that if he is pro-Muslim, and if that's true then he must either be one, or for their agenda.
> 
> Powerful words, indeed.
> 
> ...




Yes, I know I know it. I made a Trump-esq squad bay remark and tried to sea-lawyer my way out of it...and I apologize.

But in the process found myself a little more sympathetic to POTUS's choice of words. I read the Ben Shapiro article and it sounds reasonable; but is he overthinking this? Couldn't it be simply that liberal politicians are obsessed with political correctness and are loath to say anything that might be in the least offensive to anybody, particularly the voting blocks they profess to represent? And who knows, he may think half the country is comprised of gun-toting toothless rednecks who'll start burning down mosques if he ramps up his rhetoric. After all, ISIS propaganda incites lone-wolf mass murder.

On the other hand, we have Trump, who uses words like shrapnel with, seemingly, little concern to where the physics impact. If he ever gets to the White House he may have to bring it down a notch.


----------



## Totentanz (Jun 16, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Yes, I know I know it. I made a Trump-esq squad bay remark and tried to sea-lawyer my way out of it...and I apologize.


Thanks for being honest about it.

I think Trump's smart enough to know when to ratchet it up (eg firing up crowd during a campaign) and when to dial it back.  That doesn't mean that he's an expert statesman, but I think he has a solid handle on who can and can't afford to piss off.


----------



## Brill (Jun 16, 2016)

Totentanz said:


> I think Trump's smart enough to know when to ratchet it up (eg firing up crowd during a campaign) and when to dial it back.  That doesn't mean that he's an expert statesman, but I think he has a solid handle on who can and can't afford to piss off.



I dunno man. His latest verbal against the GOP really makes me question his judgement.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 17, 2016)

lindy said:


> I dunno man. His latest verbal against the GOP really makes me question his judgement.



I think the 'Donald' is far more calculated than any of us could possibly know. He didn't get to where he is by having poor judgment, and just because we can see what the right hand is doing, doesn't mean we can always see what the left hand is also doing. Circus and bread my friend, circus and bread.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 17, 2016)

Trump also didn't get to where he was by being a genius. He started off pretty damn well, basically the definition of privilege. I think anyone on here if given what he was given to start would be pretty well off.


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## Brill (Jun 17, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I think the 'Donald' is far more calculated than any of us could possibly know. He didn't get to where he is by having poor judgment, and just because we can see what the right hand is doing, doesn't mean we can always see what the left hand is also doing. Circus and bread my friend, circus and bread.



If that right hand is Clinton's, I think you're right. His verbal assault against the GOP seriously just handed the White House to a Democrat (hopefully Hillary will recuse herself due to criminal charges but that's wishful justice).  There is absolutely ZERO to be gained by alienating the average Joe GOP supporter. Sure Trump got 13 million votes in the primary:Romney LOST the election with 60 million votes.

I think the election is too important to be left to the hands of common Americans. The game is rigged and there is no chance that Wall Street would allow a wildcard to affect their addiction of YOUR labor. Americans, buy more shit that will break so you have to buy more shit and get a bigger house or get a storage unit! Take a vacation and get a new car because you deserve it! Put in all on credit and pay it off later.

Bill has already caused Viagra to quadruple in price because of supply shortages. Like his interns, we're fucked.  I'm taking my sailboat South.

#unlock the nomination thread!


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## DocIllinois (Jun 17, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I think the 'Donald' is far more calculated than any of us could possibly know. He didn't get to where he is by having poor judgment, and_ *just because we can see what the right hand is doing, doesn't mean we can always see what the left hand is also doing. Circus and bread my friend, circus and bread.*_



This describes the activities of any high level American politician or those impersonating one.

DJT _is_ doing us the novel favor of giving a WARNO about the horrendous train wreck we'll be getting if he's elected, though.  I'll give him that.

Thanks, Donnie!


----------



## Salt USMC (Jun 17, 2016)

This article from the American Conservative takes an insightful, nuanced look at gun arguments coming from both sides of the spectrum, and adroitly problematizes them.  A good read if you take the time to fully digest his arguments

A Good Guy With a Gun Runs, Too


> After every mass shooting in the U.S. you hear the same arguments from the same people. One group blames lax gun laws. The other group says more guns equal less crime. These are polarized positions to say the least.
> 
> Gun access aside, last week’s shooting in Orlando is vastly more complex than it originally appeared. Evidence continues to build that the shooter, Omar Mateen, while definitely a Muslim, was also gay. Presumably a self-loathing one. Meanwhile,there’s no evidence he’d ever been in contact with ISIS. This complicates the simple portrayal of a jihadist and serves nobody’s purpose, although it does seem to be getting progressively more play. The media initially consistently misidentified his rifle, repeatedly claiming it was the highly-popular AR-15 when it’s actually a weapon that bears no semblance to the sibling of the military M-16. So they changed the wording to “AR-15 style,” which isn’t true either. They wanted continuity between this massacre and earlier ones that did use the AR-15—and they “found” it.


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## ThunderHorse (Jun 17, 2016)

I'm still wondering how many shots he fired.  I saw estimates of 1000, if it was that much, how was he hauling the ammunition, because that's heavy.


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## Centermass (Jun 17, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> I'm still wondering how many shots he fired.  I saw estimates of 1000, if it was that much, how was he hauling the ammunition, because that's heavy.



Not if you're Cav........:-"


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 17, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> This article from the American Conservative takes an insightful, nuanced look at gun arguments coming from both sides of the spectrum, and adroitly problematizes them.  A good read if you take the time to fully digest his arguments
> 
> A Good Guy With a Gun Runs, Too



Thanks for sharing.  The guys I shoot with were talking about something similar tonight, the obligatory "what if I was there" question.  

The short answer to a multi-hour discussion is this, I'm not a cop and as long as I'm able to secure whatever family/friends I have with me, I'm getting the F out.  I have zero interest to engage this guy, who could have been wearing body army and was obviously armed with a rifle, with my 9mm CZ.  

Didn't I read that there was an armed cop in the club?  And that the officer exchanged gunfire with the shooter?

Of all the stories I read about what happened out there, the one with the kid who was trapped in the bathroom, texting his mom, his last message saying something like, "He's coming, mama, I'm gonna die!"  That has stuck with me.  It has made me even more aware of carrying when it is an option (almost anywhere and anytime in MN), because to be trapped like that, knowing my gun was in my car/safe/etc. that would be almost more maddening to me than accepting that I was about to be shot and killed in a bathroom stall.  I would like to think that were I in the same situation, my text would look more like, "He's coming mama, if he comes thru that door he's going to die!"


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## Dienekes (Jun 18, 2016)

@Ooh-Rah, pm inbound about CZ


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## Brill (Jun 18, 2016)

385-ish vs one man in a "confined" space.

Panic starts with one person and spreads...so does heroism. 

How many of us have been in tight spots when the words "fuck it" are uttered/heard only to rally and ultimately turn the tide?

Run, Hide, Fight campaign causes the fearful reaction and should be replaced with the warrior mindset "This I will defend".


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## AWP (Jun 18, 2016)

lindy said:


> 385-ish vs one man in a "confined" space.
> 
> Panic starts with one person and spreads...so does heroism.



I agree with you 100% but the problem is society is increasingly populated by people without an aggressive thought in their minds. Actions and mentalities are indeed contagious, but a handful of guys making a run at the shooter won't turn that tide. People conditioned to believe the state will save them or others handle violence because isn't who they are or whatever excuse won't suddenly rise ot the challenge en masse. Moral courage isn't the same as physical courage and blathering on Twitter or some blog like many do these days isn't the same as confronting one's mortality.

All of this goes back to the "pussification" of society we've all discussed. "My feelings are hurt" has ramifications beyond a CBT for work or another class to take, it is turning our society into one populated by victims, victims who chose to be victims.


----------



## Marine0311 (Jun 18, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I agree with you 100% but the problem is society is increasingly populated by people without an aggressive thought in their minds. Actions and mentalities are indeed contagious, but a handful of guys making a run at the shooter won't turn that tide. People conditioned to believe the state will save them or others handle violence because isn't who they are or whatever excuse won't suddenly rise ot the challenge en masse. Moral courage isn't the same as physical courage and blathering on Twitter or some blog like many do these days isn't the same as confronting one's mortality.
> 
> All of this goes back to the "pussification" of society we've all discussed. "My feelings are hurt" has ramifications beyond a CBT for work or another class to take, it is turning our society into one populated by victims, victims who chose to be victims.



I weep for the future. I really do. Too many sheep and few sheepdogs/those willing to go in harms way. I am getting into 2A debates again with people who truly believe it is the moral responsibility for someone else to protect them. Sometimes I lose hope.


----------



## nobodythank you (Jun 18, 2016)

As an aside, does it not infuriate anyone else that the club is so far not being held liable for hiring only one officer for over 300 patrons? I understand that it is likely the minimum amount of LE required by either the city or the insurance, but how irresponsible can they be to have one fucking officer to manage over 300 people? Don't get me wrong, I am not saying that the officer working the detail did not do an outstanding job. I have worked off duty details when I was still in the profession, and I never expected to really work. The argument for concealed carry is moot in this case because Florida law does not allow for concealed carry in bars or clubs. So it is irrelevant to the discussion. However, the issue of one officer working an event with over 300 people is mind boggling no matter the composition of the audience. 

My city has several officers working off duty details at various events and clubs. In fact, the last time I was in a club (2009 I think) there were several officers, a metal detector, and only one access point into the complex. Even being a sworn officer at the time, I was not able to carry inside. Personally, I hate to Monday morning quarterback things that happen in the field, but am I alone in wondering WTF was either the club or the city thinking?


----------



## Etype (Jun 18, 2016)

I'd like to go on the record saying that it's complete and utter PC bullshit that some of you went down the micro-aggression pathway in reaction to, 'Barrack Hussein Obama.'

eta-
The country elected him, twice. So why is it politically and social off-limits to utter his full name?

Should we not say Patraeus' first name because it implies some sort of religious connotation?


----------



## AWP (Jun 18, 2016)

I'm waiting for someone to sue the club.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 18, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> I weep for the future. I really do. Too many sheep and few sheepdogs/those willing to go in harms way. I am getting into 2A debates again with people who truly believe it is the moral responsibility for someone else to protect them. Sometimes I lose hope.



Quit wasting time talking to those people, every day we get older and life is getting to short to waste time talking to stupid people.

You would be shocked how many normal looking regular people are walking around high on illegal drugs or legally medicated because our nation has gotten so fucked up, that people have to be high or loopy just to get through another day.

Society isn't the problem, its the over regulation, over taxation and over the top laws passed day in and day out, that make everyone a criminal. You cannot walk out of your home and go down the road with out breaking at least one law. It's an impossible situation that is grinding society into a bunch of dumbass doped up tards who want to put their personal protection in the hands of the police, who are being prosecuted for fucking doing their jobs.

I'm so fucking sick of reading and hearing about the pussification of the modern man. WTF else is he going to do? It's not like a bunch of kids woke up one day and said "fuck social norms, I want to cut my dick off and dress like a girl, act like a bitch, scream absurdity at college professors and live at my parents into my 30's". It took time for society to get here and it will take even longer to reverse, if that's even possible, but the worst part about it all, is understanding that it is by design, and than trying to rationalize in your head why anyone would socially engineer us into the current format. It's so we argue about if one should have the right to self protection while the other now expects to be protected. It's so we stay divided and arguing about stupid shit that any rational think person would understand, so we don't wake up and see things for what they actually are. You, me and everyone else, are being used, grinded out, to make others wealthy. It's not capitalism or big corporation, its the banking system and it's in everything. Want a car, buy it on credit, pay 10x what it cost to build it, because the bank is involved every step of the process. How is it that a 30year home loan ends up costing you 3 times the original loan amount? Why is that the house is never actually paid for? Why is housing so important to the market and why do the houses fall apart but climb in value beyond reason? Payday loans, credit cards, student loans, vehicle loans, home loans and refinance, bankruptcy, fix it and do it again. New vehicles have doubled in price, homes have tripled, gas is all over the place, light bill, water bill, and food, all have gone up in price, but wages have decreased, and hours are cut to where you need a second and third job to make ends meet. This is happening across the country, but we're still arguing about stupid shit. How many members on this very forum have suffered some kind of catastrophic financial woes only to get up, dust off and do it all over again. Never to understand that it's not them, and there is no way around it, we are slaves to banking system that controls everything.

Think Trump is some special enigma? He works for the same people Clinton, Berne and every one else does. Think its an actual election, or that your vote really matters? Think it matters who is elected? Outside of appearance of politics, do you really think there is any difference in the POTUS election after election, its the same. It's not Democrat or Republican, it is the A team or the B team, and it doesn't matter who wins, because both teams play for the same owners.

Pheww, sorry for the over the top way too long soapbox/rantings. I needed to let that out, and zeroed in on the arguing with people stuff.


----------



## Marine0311 (Jun 18, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Quit wasting time talking to those people, every day we get older and life is getting to short to waste time talking to stupid people.
> 
> You would be shocked how many normal looking regular people are walking around high on illegal drugs or legally medicated because our nation has gotten so fucked up, that people have to be high or loopy just to get through another day.
> 
> ...



Thank you for writing that. It is very insightful. It's part of how I think and feel walking around. It is sad.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 18, 2016)

Etype said:


> I'd like to go on the record saying that it's complete and utter PC bullshit that some of you went down the micro-aggression pathway in reaction to, 'Barrack Hussein Obama.'
> 
> eta-
> The country elected him, twice. So why is it politically and social off-limits to utter his full name?
> ...



I understand your point, but the tone of it often tries to imply he is a Muslim. Acting as if it doesn't try and do that is just as much complete and utter bullshit.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 18, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> Thank you for writing that. It is very insightful. It's part of how I think and feel walking around. It is sad.



Probably one the very best and most honest news clips I've ever seen.


----------



## Florida173 (Jun 18, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I understand your point, but the tone of it often tries to imply he is a Muslim. Acting as if it doesn't try and do that is just as much complete and utter bullshit.



What if he was a Muslim? Would it matter? He was likely indoctrinated into it earlier in his life through schooling and stuff, but who cares. The Pope didn't take over the United States with JFK.

Realizing that Islam isn't only a religion, but it still stands. The only Muslims I've ever liked were bad ones.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 18, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> What if he was a Muslim? Would it matter? He was likely indoctrinated into it earlier in his life through schooling and stuff, but who cares. The Pope didn't take over the United States with JFK.
> 
> Realizing that Islam isn't only a religion, but it still stands. The only Muslims I've ever liked were bad ones.



What are you talking about? Trying to imply POTUS is a Muslim in some sort of wink wink nod conspiracy is just plain stupid.


----------



## Florida173 (Jun 18, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> What are you talking about? Trying to imply POTUS is a Muslim in some sort of wink wink nod conspiracy is just plain stupid.


So you are suggesting that once a Muslim, always a Muslim?

I'm not in anyway playing the game that he's secretly a Muslim and had fooled us this whole time.

I'm asking what difference would be if he was a Muslim.

Sorry.. Off topic. I'm done with this.


----------



## Polar Bear (Jun 18, 2016)

I cleaned up the thread a bit


----------



## Brill (Jun 18, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I understand your point, but the tone of it often tries to imply he is a Muslim.



Wherein does the "guilt" lie: the sender or the receiver?

How does tone convey in text without change in font?


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 18, 2016)

lindy said:


> Wherein does the "guilt" lie: the sender or the receiver?
> 
> How does tone convey in text without change in font?



Guilt? Come on homey. 

Because it does. I obviously wasn't  the only one who thought so.


----------



## DocIllinois (Jun 18, 2016)

lindy said:


> Wherein does the "guilt" lie: the sender or the receiver?
> 
> How does tone convey in text without change in font?



Nonsense about the "unfortunate" implications of President Obama's full name goes back as far as his first campaign.

Asking these sorts of questions at this point, therefore, is argument from incredulity, IMO.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 19, 2016)

I instinctively think of the NY Post as more tabloid journalism, but this is very well written, and persuasive.

Why the ‘lone-wolf’ terrorist is a myth | New York Post


----------



## Brill (Jun 19, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Guilt? Come on homey.
> 
> Because it does. I obviously wasn't  the only one who thought so.



Did you just use the "because I said so" defense?  

No, I meant feeling (interpreting) that using his full name is offensive or conveys some type of derogatory theme.

Some here felt as you did but there were obviously others that did not. I do believe that some use BHO to convey their belief that he is a Muslim and/or he's foreign born.  I also believe that some feel it's just his name.  So when someone is offended by a controversial topic (flag, symbol, etc), does the fault of the offense lie with the commenter/poster or is just the offended who bears responsibility because they dislike the image/words?

I really don't think there are many members here who hide behind veiled comments: the majority do express their feelings. Even some of us, myself included, have actually changed their viewpoints based on posts made here.

The reality is the President has repeatedly made comments and acted in ways towards Muslims that honestly don't make sense to Joe 6-pack (e.g. bowing to King, pronunciation of Pakistan, views on Islam, etc). In the absence of direct explanations, alternative narratives that "make sense" prevail.


----------



## Rapid (Jun 19, 2016)

*Josh Kraushaar on Twitter*



> *Attorney General Loretta Lynch is pushing for the release of the transcripts while hiding the true motivations behind the attacks.*
> 
> This manipulation of the story is very crucial as *Republicans, Democrats Interpret Orlando Incident Differently*
> 
> ...




"He kept talking about ISIS. This isn't helpful. This needs to be a mass shooting about gun control." "Delete the ISIS parts!"


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jun 19, 2016)

Rapid said:


> *Josh Kraushaar on Twitter*
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Shape and spin. It all comes down to politics and who is deciding what is PC for the event.


----------



## Etype (Jun 19, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I understand your point, but the tone of it often tries to imply he is a Muslim. Acting as if it doesn't try and do that is just as much complete and utter bullshit.





lindy said:


> Wherein does the "guilt" lie: the sender or the receiver?
> 
> How does tone convey in text without change in font?


I believe what lindy is trying to say is, we just entered micro-aggression territory.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 19, 2016)

Etype said:


> I believe what lindy is trying to say is, we just entered micro-aggression territory.



Did we though? Is it a micro aggression to think a passive aggressive means of pretending our president is a Muslim to make a wink wink point is stupid? If so then I guess I am micro aggressed. 

In reality I think it is stupid to try and hint at Obama being a Muslim, just like I think it is stupid that people think:he isn't a citizen, SF guys are taking over Texas, Mexicans are taking our jobs, we need a wall, and so on. It is a weak argument and cheapens anyone's stance.


----------



## Etype (Jun 19, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Did we though? Is it a micro aggression to think a passive aggressive means of pretending our president is a Muslim to make a wink wink point is stupid? If so then I guess I am micro aggressed.
> 
> In reality I think it is stupid to try and hint at Obama being a Muslim, just like I think it is stupid that people think:he isn't a citizen, SF guys are taking over Texas, Mexicans are taking our jobs, we need a wall, and so on. It is a weak argument and cheapens anyone's stance.


You had me on your side until you got to the wall.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 19, 2016)

Etype said:


> You had me on your side until you got to the wall.



I threw that one in mostly as a joke. I don't think a wall is the worst thing, don't think it is the best either.


----------



## DocIllinois (Jun 19, 2016)

Build a hideously expensive wall to keep out an illegal migration that has come to a standstill, and may have even reversed - a refulgent notion!  

Net Migration From Mexico Falls to Zero - and Perhaps Less

The Good Idea Fairy works strongly on our man Donnie.


----------



## Etype (Jun 19, 2016)

DocIllinois said:


> Build a hideously expensive wall to keep out an illegal migration that has come to a standstill, and may have even reversed - a refulgent notion!
> 
> Net Migration From Mexico Falls to Zero - and Perhaps Less
> 
> The Good Idea Fairy works strongly on our man Donnie.


That whole article was based on, "Pew Hispanic Center estimates..."

Well done.


----------



## Salt USMC (Jun 20, 2016)

Etype said:


> That whole article was based on, "Pew Hispanic Center estimates..."
> 
> Well done.


Their complete methodology is here if you think their sampling or estimation method is flawed.

My only complaint is that @DocIllinois didn't post the more updated version, which demonstrates that not only was net immigration halted, but it actually reversed between the year 2009 and 2014 
http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2015/11/2015-11-19_mexican-immigration__FINAL.pdf


----------



## Etype (Jun 20, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Their complete methodology is here if you think their sampling or estimation method is flawed.
> 
> My only complaint is that @DocIllinois didn't post the more updated version, which demonstrates that not only was net immigration halted, but it actually reversed between the year 2009 and 2014
> http://www.pewhispanic.org/files/2015/11/2015-11-19_mexican-immigration__FINAL.pdf


The most recent data cited in that page is 2011, that was 5 years ago (I think).

Also, most of it was Mexican gov't figures. The Mexican gov't is a proponent of illegal immigration to the US, and denies that it even occurs in some cases.


----------



## Salt USMC (Jun 20, 2016)

Mexican sources cross-referenced with three different American sources.  The limitations of the Mexican survey (Encuesta Nacional de la Dinámica Demográfica—ENADID) are acknowledged here:



> The ENADID has some limitations when it comes to providing full coverage of migration flows between Mexico and the U.S. All migrants into Mexico in the period before the survey (who are still alive and still in Mexico) can be identified. However, for recent out-migrants, only those migrants from households where some members remained in Mexico can be identified. ENADID is not able to measure outmigration of whole households.
> 
> The migrant sample includes only a limited amount of socio-demographic data on the migrants. However, most of the recent migrants who have returned to Mexico (i.e., those who returned to the same household) can be linked to their own record in the household and sociodemographic data. For 2014, we were able to match 90% the returned recent migrants (739 unweighted cases out of 818 returnees in the migrant sample). Because some migrants make multiple trips to the U.S., some of the returned recent migrants (i.e., those who made a trip out of Mexico after August 2009 in 2014) were living in the U.S. five years before the survey. In measuring total migration into Mexico, it is necessary to remove this group from the estimate to avoid double counting. Using the matched samples, 30% of the returned recent migrants in the 2014 ENADID had been in the U.S. five years earlier.
> 
> ...


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 20, 2016)

We are about 100 miles off topic. I did my pet to get us there. Let's get back to topic.


----------



## Florida173 (Jun 20, 2016)

I think we could set up a new discussion on how we triggered @TLDR20


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 20, 2016)

DocIllinois said:


> Build a hideously expensive wall to keep out an illegal migration that has come to a standstill, and may have even reversed - a refulgent notion!
> 
> Net Migration From Mexico Falls to Zero - and Perhaps Less
> 
> The Good Idea Fairy works strongly on our man Donnie.


We are still being flooded with illegals, mainly from other countries who travel through Mexico.
Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese are 3 of the top 4.
Chinese take IT jobs, then steal all our intellectual data; Pakistanis are just not who I want running through my yard at night.


----------



## Etype (Jun 20, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I did my pet to get us there.


I hope it was consensual.


DA SWO said:


> Pakistanis are just not who I want running through my yard at night.


Bigot.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 20, 2016)

Etype said:


> I hope it was consensual.


----------



## AWP (Jun 20, 2016)

We have this elsewhere, but this IS the Orlando thread.

DOJ to scrub Islam references from transcripts of Orlando terrorist's calls to police | Fox News



> The Department of Justice is scrubbing references of radical Islamic beliefs from the transcripts of calls Orlando terrorist Omar Mateen made to police during his massacre, Attorney General Loretta Lynch said Sunday.



What the FUCK?!?!?!

As I type this CNN has two small stories related to Orland, both buried well down the page. I think Fox is no different that any other "news" corporation with an agenda, but for CNN to drop the story? Yeah, no agenda going on here....

ETA: The Orlando paper has also removed Lynch's promise to remove the references.

Orlando gunman's conversations with police from inside nightclub to be released


----------



## Totentanz (Jun 20, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> We have this elsewhere, but this IS the Orlando thread.
> 
> DOJ to scrub Islam references from transcripts of Orlando terrorist's calls to police | Fox News
> 
> ...



Oceania has always been at war with Eastasia...


----------



## Florida173 (Jun 20, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> We are still being flooded with illegals, mainly from other countries who travel through Mexico.
> Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese are 3 of the top 4.
> Chinese take IT jobs, then steal all our intellectual data; Pakistanis are just not who I want running through my yard at night.



In reference to the "Other Than Mexicans" deportable aliens that entered in FY15, the numbers are quite significant, but I'm curious where you got your info from.


----------



## Etype (Jun 20, 2016)

Orlando Police Chief, "... misconception that we didn't do anything for 3 hours..." He also noted that there was no shooting during the 3 hours.

How many people bled out in he 3 hours?

I'd bet it's a very large number.

eta-
"It takes time to set up an explosive entry, those things take time." 

Wow, his excuse game is weak. Good for him, the press' game is weaker.


----------



## AWP (Jun 20, 2016)

CNN's front page finally decided to report the story.

FBI releases partial transcript of Orlando nightclub shooting calls - CNN.com



> The transcript also shows Mateen spoke to the dispatcher in Arabic and that he pledged allegiance to an organization and an individual during the call, but the transcript does not include those names.


----------



## Salt USMC (Jun 20, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> CNN's front page finally decided to report the story.
> 
> FBI releases partial transcript of Orlando nightclub shooting calls - CNN.com


I can understand removing references to whatever IS leader the dude pledged to, but removing the bismallah and other phrases just doesn't make sense.


----------



## Centermass (Jun 20, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> I can understand removing references to whatever IS leader the dude pledged to, but removing the bismallah and other phrases *just doesn't make sense.*



Depending on who you are and what side of the fence you happen to be standing, yeah, it does.


----------



## Centermass (Jun 20, 2016)

Reporter: "So, what was responsible for redacting the 911 call in the Orlando shooting?"

Lynch: "It was a video..."


----------



## moobob (Jun 20, 2016)

There could have been political factors like... need the mayor's approval to rescue the hostages or some similar bs. People will say you weren't there, you shouldn't Monday morning quarterback, but some of what apparently happened sounds ridiculous. 3 hours to setup the breach, and trying to negotiate with someone that gunned down tens of people already (instead of say, an angered spouse that shot 1 person). People definitely bled out, and it's already been more or less confirmed that the responding officers shot and killed bystanders. The FBI SAIC tried to deflect the question and the Orlando police chief said "well those deaths are on the gunman". He's not very bright, at least with his media skills.   





Etype said:


> Orlando Police Chief, "... misconception that we didn't do anything for 3 hours..." He also noted that there was no shooting during the 3 hours.
> 
> How many people bled out in he 3 hours?
> 
> ...


----------



## Brill (Jun 20, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> We have this elsewhere, but this IS the Orlando thread.
> 
> DOJ to scrub Islam references from transcripts of Orlando terrorist's calls to police | Fox News
> 
> ...



Seriously, what's the problem?


----------



## Etype (Jun 20, 2016)

@ke4gde ,  would you be happier if some more of the wounded bled out on the floor?

Or are you happy that they died and the police stayed safe?

Just wondering, you don't have to answer.


----------



## AWP (Jun 20, 2016)

lindy said:


> Seriously, what's the problem?



What difference does it make?


----------



## Brill (Jun 20, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> What difference does it make?



GD it! You cannot answer a question with a QUESTION!..can you?:-"


----------



## Etype (Jun 20, 2016)

moobob said:


> People will say you weren't there, you shouldn't Monday morning quarterback...


I agree, there are a few parrots around here who will repeat this line.

After over 100 people were just shot on their watch, then left to bleed out, the LE leaders stand around and have a congratulatory circle jerk about how well prepared they were and what a great job they all did.

Oh well, don't question it.


----------



## nobodythank you (Jun 20, 2016)

Etype said:


> @ke4gde ,  would you be happier if some of the wounded bled out on the floor?
> 
> Or are you happy that they died and the police stayed safe?
> 
> Just wondering, you don't have to answer.


Look, I am trying to be respectful of you, your knowledge base, and how hard you worked to earn that green tag. However, your responses have shown a misinformation as to the realities and protocols for active shooter responses. If you honestly believe I would rather have innocent citizens bleeding out than to be rescued then you insult me. Instead, I am going to take it as you are frustrated at the lack of information and the lack of what you perceive should be done.  

As I said earlier, when responding to an active shooter, the first units on scene are typically trained to engage the active shooter and neutralize him, or contain him. Medical support is not given until the scene is secured, or a way to protect the medics presents itself. This is why firefighters and EMTs stage outside of the danger zone and don't rush in. If possible, follow up officers will arrive and form up as medical teams to provide aid to fallen citizens. Was this procedure followed to the letter? Probably not as each situation is different and can become very fluid. I am smart enough to know that I don't know the exact way it should have been handled because I wasn't there and I wasn't in command. Likely, if there was a 3 hour delay for a breach it could be explained as incompetence, delay in getting SWAT into position, politics, negotiations, casualty evacuation, or the fickle finger of murphy fate. There are basic principals for dealing with an active shooter that are nationwide. Each jurisdiction is free to modify their protocols as they see fit for their areas of responsibility. 

Let me ask you this. Would you be happier if the cops rushed in under fire and ignored the threat to provide aid? I doubt it. A lot of good it would do to have several first responders go down from being sloppy and adding to the already chaotic scene. Civilian policing/action is different from typical battlefield engagements. You can sit here and Monday morning quarterback what took place (without knowing damn all what happened) all you like. The fact remains that you have no idea what happened, what should have occurred, or why certain decisions were made. If the cops fucked up, they will likely be brought to account. I am not justifying anything that was or was not done that night. However, your posturing and blustering rings of a 15 year old in his basement trying to say what he would do. No offense, but if you're mad about what happened then I share your anger and frustration. Otherwise you are just talking shit about fellow brothers and sisters (yours and mine) that ran to the sound of the guns. Which is all we can hope to do in a fucked up situation such as what happened that night.


----------



## moobob (Jun 20, 2016)

Etype isn't saying they should have rushed in to give aid. He's saying that they decided to not try to neutralize the threat... for 3 hours, and the police chief gave the excuse that it took that long to setup the breach. I've talked to cops that said that because he "stopped shooting" he became a "barricaded suspect" instead of an active shooter and that's why they negotiated with him. When someone has just committed mass murder and takes hostages, and there are very probably wounded with him that are bleeding out, he needs to be taken out. I think what a lot of people don't understand (LEOs included) is that this is more of a military situation than a law enforcement one. It is war on U.S. soil. Unfortunately, there is only one LE organization I know of that has similar qualifications to military units that specialize in these missions, and that organization can't be everywhere. So, we're basically screwed if a motivated individual wants to carry out an attack like this. Law Enforcement is not trained or equipped to handle it. And unless some magic excuse comes out, this is a perfect example of that.



ke4gde said:


> Look, I am trying to be respectful of you, your knowledge base, and how hard you worked to earn that green tag. However, your responses have shown a misinformation as to the realities and protocols for active shooter responses. If you honestly believe I would rather have innocent citizens bleeding out than to be rescued then you insult me. Instead, I am going to take it as you are frustrated at the lack of information and the lack of what you perceive should be done.
> 
> As I said earlier, when responding to an active shooter, the first units on scene are typically trained to engage the active shooter and neutralize him, or contain him. Medical support is not given until the scene is secured, or a way to protect the medics presents itself. This is why firefighters and EMTs stage outside of the danger zone and don't rush in. If possible, follow up officers will arrive and form up as medical teams to provide aid to fallen citizens. Was this procedure followed to the letter? Probably not as each situation is different and can become very fluid. I am smart enough to know that I don't know the exact way it should have been handled because I wasn't there and I wasn't in command. Likely, if there was a 3 hour delay for a breach it could be explained as incompetence, delay in getting SWAT into position, politics, negotiations, casualty evacuation, or the fickle finger of murphy fate. There are basic principals for dealing with an active shooter that are nationwide. Each jurisdiction is free to modify their protocols as they see fit for their areas of responsibility.
> 
> Let me ask you this. Would you be happier if the cops rushed in under fire and ignored the threat to provide aid? I doubt it. A lot of good it would do to have several first responders go down from being sloppy and adding to the already chaotic scene. Civilian policing/action is different from typical battlefield engagements. You can sit here and Monday morning quarterback what took place (without knowing damn all what happened) all you like. The fact remains that you have no idea what happened, what should have occurred, or why certain decisions were made. If the cops fucked up, they will likely be brought to account. I am not justifying anything that was or was not done that night. However, your posturing and blustering rings of a 15 year old in his basement trying to say what he would do. No offense, but if you're mad about what happened then I share your anger and frustration. Otherwise you are just talking shit about fellow brothers and sisters (yours and mine) that ran to the sound of the guns. Which is all we can hope to do in a fucked up situation such as what happened that night.


----------



## AWP (Jun 20, 2016)

lindy said:


> GD it! You cannot answer a question with a QUESTION!..can you?:-"



I don't know, can I?


----------



## nobodythank you (Jun 20, 2016)

moobob said:


> Etype isn't saying they should have rushed in to give aid. He's saying that they decided to not try to neutralize the threat... for 3 hours, and the police chief gave the excuse that it took that long to setup the breach. I've talked to cops that said that because he "stopped shooting" he became a "barricaded suspect" instead of an active shooter and that's why they negotiated with him. When someone has just committed mass murder and takes hostages, and there are very probably wounded with him that are bleeding out, he needs to be taken out. I think what a lot of people don't understand (LEOs included) is that this is more of a military situation than a law enforcement one. It is war on U.S. soil. Unfortunately, there is only one LE organization I know of that has similar qualifications to military units that specialize in these missions, and that organization can't be everywhere. So, we're basically screwed if a motivated individual wants to carry out an attack like this. Law Enforcement is not trained or equipped to handle it. And unless some magic excuse comes out, this is a perfect example of that.


The cops you spoke to were correct. It was a barricaded suspect with hostages. In order to save the hostages he had, it was necessary to get assets into position while negotiating. With hostages are in play, the officers and administration must also be concerned with legal matters regarding how they respond to the barricaded suspect. They could be held criminally and civilly liable for gross misconduct/negligence regarding the hostages. The same is not true of the military when conducting operations overseas in combat zones. Generally speaking, the military is free form local prosecution and only answers to the UCMJ. 

This was not a military situation in any way shape or form. If it were then the military would have had jurisdiction and all domestic laws would have been suspended. While the various terrorist attacks on home soil may constitute a war (in an abstract sense), this situation was not a war, nor was it a war zone in and of itself. This attack was no different than any other shooting/hostage scenario this country has seen in the last 30-40 years. The only thing that was different here was the motivation for the attack compared to other situations. While I completely agree that LE are not trained the same as the military, LE is generally equipped to handle these types of scenarios as they usually out number, and out gun the opposition while controlling the surrounding area.

If there is blame to assign, it rests with the club owner, the FBI, and DHS for the various background investigations that were conducted that turned up red flags on the suspect.


----------



## AWP (Jun 20, 2016)

"Uh, disregard our last."

Orlando shooting 911 call: FBI releases full transcript  - CNN.com



> But after news organizations and public officials like Republican House Leader Paul Ryan complained, the agency released the full, unredacted transcript of the call in the afternoon.
> 
> In explaining its change of mind, the FBI said in a news release: "As much of this information had been previously reported, we have re-issued the complete transcript to include these references in order to provide the highest level of *transparency* possible under the circumstances."



I don't think that word means what you think it means.


----------



## AWP (Jun 20, 2016)

"The police are too militarized."
Months later, Pulse happens
"Why didn't the police do more?"

I'll admit I don't have answers to this conundrum, but America needs to fish or cut bait on this issue. LEO's need more training (duh), but I dare say agencies need to rethink how they handle these shootings. I think we saw a "one size fits all" approach in ORL and I don't see how that's the right answer. TTP's and policies need to change because the world has changed. Bureaucratic inertia may keep a ship on course, but LE agencies should start thinking along new, and grim, lines.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jun 20, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> "Uh, disregard our last."
> 
> Orlando shooting 911 call: FBI releases full transcript  - CNN.com
> 
> ...


----------



## Brill (Jun 20, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> "The police are too militarized."
> Months later, Pulse happens
> "Why didn't the police do more?"
> 
> I'll admit I don't have answers to this conundrum, but America needs to fish or cut bait on this issue. LEO's need more training (duh), but I dare say agencies need to rethink how they handle these shootings. I think we saw a "one size fits all" approach in ORL and I don't see how that's the right answer. TTP's and policies need to change because the world has changed. Bureaucratic inertia may keep a ship on course, but LE agencies should start thinking along new, and grim, lines.



My understanding from press reports is that he had IS videos, propaganda, etc on a device (laptop, phone, or something).

If Ft Hood, Boston, Chattanooga, San Bernadino, etc all had one thing in common is all the attackers had similar shit on their computers/phones.

FBI & DHS, FUCKING START THERE!

If you can nab kiddie porn shitbags who trade crap via the dark web, YOU CAN FUCKING TRACK AND IDENT THESE PEOPLE TOO!

You are CHOSING not to...for bullshit political reasons passed down by your political appointee directors.  I guarantee-fucking-tee there are MORE G-men penetrating "right-wing groups" (tea party and veteran groups) than CONUS-based Islamic groups.

I challenge any federal LEO here to prove me wrong.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 20, 2016)

I'm in no position to criticize, but this discussion goes all the way back to Columbine.   I thought I had read that police forces were updating ROE when it come to these types of situations. Instead, the comments from Orlando PD are nearly identical to those of the police this week.

*From Columbine *
_The sheriff's department also noted it was afraid to send paramedics or the SWAT team in to find Sanders right away because of concerns about bombs and potential "booby traps" planted by the gunmen in and around the high school._

Columbine Officers Under Fire


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 20, 2016)

lindy said:


> My understanding from press reports is that he had IS videos, propaganda, etc on a device (laptop, phone, or something).
> 
> If Ft Hood, Boston, Chattanooga, San Bernadino, etc all had one thing in common is all the attackers had similar shit on their computers/phones.
> 
> ...



You guarantee? Then demand proof to the contrary? That isn't the way it works.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jun 20, 2016)

lindy said:


> guarantee-fucking-tee there are MORE G-men penetrating "right-wing groups" (tea party and veteran groups) than CONUS-based Islamic groups.
> 
> I challenge any federal LEO here to prove me wrong.



Dude, you can't do that. Your claim about other groups having more federal/LEO infiltration than Muslim groups might even be right, but throwing it out there and then asking someone else to prove you wrong is like claimibg a theory about 9-11, or Kennedy, or the moon landing and then putting the onus on everyone else to prove the theory is wrong.

To add - TLDR hit this above while I was typing.


----------



## policemedic (Jun 20, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> You guarantee? Then demand proof to the contrary? That isn't the way it works.



You make the claim and the onus to defend it falls on you.  That's how I was taught.


----------



## policemedic (Jun 20, 2016)

moobob said:


> When someone has just committed mass murder and takes hostages, and there are very probably wounded with him that are bleeding out, he needs to be taken out. I think what a lot of people don't understand (LEOs included) is that this is more of a military situation than a law enforcement one.Law Enforcement is not trained or equipped to handle it. And unless some magic excuse comes out, this is a perfect example of that.



What's the basis of the expertise on which you base these broad brush comments?


----------



## DocIllinois (Jun 20, 2016)

policemedic said:


> You make the claim and the onus to defend it falls on you.  That's how I was taught.



True, and the more extraordinary the claim, the more extraordinary the evidence needed to support it.

Not necessarily to dog pile but I'm interested in what underlies this one, too.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jun 20, 2016)

unfortunately, the FBI JTTF's work in the classified world, so...you will never be able to know if you are right or not.


----------



## Brill (Jun 20, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> unfortunately, the FBI JTTF's work in the classified world, so...you will never be able to know if you are right or not.



I'm not talking "joint" anything leveraging other agencies but strictly DOJ's current capabilities.  I'm talking about using current tech, manpower, and TTPs used to catch pedophiles be used against CONUS-based Islamic fighters to DETECT known activity that precludes domestic attacks.

Why is NBC's to catch a predator so successful?


----------



## Kraut783 (Jun 20, 2016)

Lindy,

Just answering your "I guarantee-fucking-tee there are MORE G-men penetrating "right-wing groups" (tea party and veteran groups) than CONUS-based Islamic groups." statement. 

also, the investigation arm of the FBI for counterterrorism is the JTTF's....DOJ is only the prosecuting arm. I know you meant DOJ as a whole....but wanted to clarify.


----------



## Brill (Jun 20, 2016)

CONUS terror arrests since 9/11 as of June 9: 86

The Islamic State’s suspected inroads into America

Child sex abuse PROSECUTIONS in Federal court in 2006: 2,039

Bureau of Justice Statistics (BJS) - Federal Prosecution of Child Sex Exploitation Offenders, 2006

You tell me where our national priority is.


----------



## nobodythank you (Jun 20, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I'm in no position to criticize, but this discussion goes all the way back to Columbine.   I thought I had read that police forces were updating ROE when it come to these types of situations. Instead, the comments from Orlando PD are nearly identical to those of the police this week.
> 
> *From Columbine *
> _The sheriff's department also noted it was afraid to send paramedics or the SWAT team in to find Sanders right away because of concerns about bombs and potential "booby traps" planted by the gunmen in and around the high school._
> ...


They have been updated since then. Interestingly enough, it was this incident that changed the playbook on response to active shooters. Prior to Columbine the standard approach was to create a perimeter (while the shooter was active), secure the area, and await the arrival of SWAT. This changed quickly afterwards, and was part of the justification for better arming and training of patrol officers. That is why now, the first responding officers on scene immediately engage the active shooter. Just as the off duty officer did when shots rang out initially. An excellent point to bring up nonetheless.


----------



## AWP (Jun 20, 2016)

ke4gde said:


> They have been updated since then. Interestingly enough, it was this incident that changed the playbook on response to active shooters. Prior to Columbine the standard approach was to create a perimeter (while the shooter was active), secure the area, and await the arrival of SWAT. This changed quickly afterwards, and was part of the justification for better arming and training of patrol officers. That is why now, the first responding officers on scene immediately engage the active shooter. Just as the off duty officer did when shots rang out initially. An excellent point to bring up nonetheless.



That's what the off duty cop did, but what did the first on duty officers do in response?


----------



## nobodythank you (Jun 20, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> That's what the off duty cop did, but what did the first on duty officers do in response?


I don't believe we know yet, and there in lies the problem with speculation. The first on duty officers (first three or four) should have gone in to support the officer working the detail. With the follow on officers establishing a perimeter and attempting to provide first aid and casualty evacuation. We won't know until the investigation is over and the after action review is released.


----------



## Etype (Jun 20, 2016)

ke4gde said:


> ...However, your responses have shown a misinformation as to the realities and protocols for active shooter responses.
> 
> Let me ask you this. Would you be happier if the cops rushed in under fire and ignored the threat to provide aid?



I would argue that it's much worse when policies and procedures, rather than negligence, lead to loss of life.

No, I would rather they not taken 3 hours to act.

I would have like to have seen it resolved in 1 hour. Then the headline might read something like, '30 Killed, including 5 Police Officers, in Orlando.'

For 3 hours, 100+ people were neither protected nor served. The time when they were most in need, help was in no hurry.

Whether it was protocol, negligence, or cowardice- a number of those 49 people died while Police stood idle outside.


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## nobodythank you (Jun 20, 2016)

Etype said:


> Everything...


Respectfully, you have absolutely no idea of what you are talking about. Which is sad because I respect what you say in most threads. Hindsight is 20/20 I guess. You think you can do it better? By all means put on the badge. 

You are certainty entitled to your opinion, however incorrect and misguided it may be. Good luck in life and stay safe.


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## Kraut783 (Jun 20, 2016)

it's our job to go in....even when it is unsafe, lives are on the line.  I will be very interested in the timeline...and what the investigation shows.

Now, if it was a building on fire, fuck that....

*just kidding, old FD vs PD joke.


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## policemedic (Jun 20, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> it's our job to go in....even when it is unsafe, lives are on the line.  I will be very interested in the timeline...and what the investigation shows.
> 
> Now, if it was a building on fire, fuck that....
> 
> *just kidding, old FD vs PD joke.


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## Etype (Jun 20, 2016)

ke4gde said:


> You think you can do it better? By all means put on the badge.


I would love to help out, but I'm busy for the foreseeable future.


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## moobob (Jun 20, 2016)

Here's where the LE attitude toward the situation is dead wrong:

He stops shooting after killing several people. A jilted lover who goes into his/her spouses workplace, offs him/her, and takes hostages, is a barricaded suspect. It's possible that he has no qualms with the rest of the people there, and while still a danger to them and himself, could possibly be talked down. The Orlando shooter was a TERRORIST. The chance that he will start shooting hostages again is close to 100%. The chance he'll give up is close to 0. If you're lucky, he'll release a few hostages and make the room less crowded, but if he's talking, the time should be used to setup the breach and take him out at the earliest opportunity (which doesn't take 3 hours). The difference between the military and LE in this situation is that the military is willing to take casualties. If legal considerations factors into the Orlando PD's decision making process at all, that's a tragedy for the hostages and victims.

I take nothing away from the bravery of the cops that fought with the gunman initially, and the SWAT officers that took him out. That said, no, this was nothing like other shootings and hostage scenarios we've seen in the U.S. before. Lots ot firsts here. This was a motivated terrorist with the goal and means to kill as many people as possible. And law enforcement isn't trained and equipped for a situation like this. The kind of precision shooting, mentality and the intensity of training needed to have even a fighting chance of dealing with these situations is only found in a select few units in the military and FBI HRT.



ke4gde said:


> The cops you spoke to were correct. It was a barricaded suspect with hostages. In order to save the hostages he had, it was necessary to get assets into position while negotiating. With hostages are in play, the officers and administration must also be concerned with legal matters regarding how they respond to the barricaded suspect. They could be held criminally and civilly liable for gross misconduct/negligence regarding the hostages. The same is not true of the military when conducting operations overseas in combat zones. Generally speaking, the military is free form local prosecution and only answers to the UCMJ.
> 
> This was not a military situation in any way shape or form. If it were then the military would have had jurisdiction and all domestic laws would have been suspended. While the various terrorist attacks on home soil may constitute a war (in an abstract sense), this situation was not a war, nor was it a war zone in and of itself. This attack was no different than any other shooting/hostage scenario this country has seen in the last 30-40 years. The only thing that was different here was the motivation for the attack compared to other situations. While I completely agree that LE are not trained the same as the military, LE is generally equipped to handle these types of scenarios as they usually out number, and out gun the opposition while controlling the surrounding area.
> 
> If there is blame to assign, it rests with the club owner, the FBI, and DHS for the various background investigations that were conducted that turned up red flags on the suspect.


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## moobob (Jun 20, 2016)

policemedic said:


> What's the basis of the expertise on which you base these broad brush comments?


My views on the suitability of law enforcement for battling a hard-core terrorist while there are innocent bystanders... they didn't materialize out of thin air, but I'm not getting into my own experiences on the board. Sorry.


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## policemedic (Jun 21, 2016)

moobob said:


> My views on the suitability of law enforcement for battling a hard-core terrorist while there are innocent bystanders... they didn't materialize out of thin air, but I'm not getting into my own experiences on the board. Sorry.



Your views are your own, regardless of origin or application to actual domestic law enforcement situations.  You're entitled to them.  I understand the reticence to discuss certain things; that's why you haven't seen any vetted SWAT officers commenting substantively on the response to Pulse or active shooter/barricade/HR TTPs generally.

However, implying that you know how a SWAT team--in fact, virtually every SWAT team--should operate in a situation similar to Orlando because you disagree with the decisions OPD (as defined and separate from OPD SWAT) made is a stretch that would strain Mr. Fantastic.  The idea that only HRT and a small number of other teams have the capability to successfully resolve a situation like this holds as much water as my assessment of, I don't know, what a SOT-A's abilities are and how they function in a deployed setting. 

I submit to you that fighting terrorists abroad is a wholly different affair than dealing with them domestically.  The goal of protecting innocents remains the same, but the modalities used must be tailored to the ROE extant in that AO.

ETA: In the initial phases this was not a SWAT issue.


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## moobob (Jun 21, 2016)

My primary question about the incident is: How many people died between SWAT arriving on scene, and the resolution of the incident? 

I think you're missing my point that this isn't a SWAT situation, and isn't a domestic law enforcement situation. Posse Comitatus and the sheer size of our country make it so that local PDs will be the ones to respond to these types of incidents unless they drag on for an extended amount of time. Unfortunately it's something that local law enforcement (and their SWAT teams) are ill-prepared for, despite what members of both communities might think, and it's kind of ridiculous to imply they are prepared for it. This type of incident hasn't been seen before in the United States, and it appears on the surface like more people may have gotten killed because of policies and decisions that are tailored to what law enforcement does have experience with. 

Attacking whatever second-hand knowledge you can glean of (a few years of) my personal experience doesn't change the validity of my concerns, and my concern is that local law enforcement are out of their depth when it comes to an actual terrorist attack... and that will continue to be a problem if these types of attacks continue on U.S. soil. I wouldn't comment without some relevant knowledge and experience. I appreciate what police and SWAT cops do. Don't take it personally.


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## policemedic (Jun 21, 2016)

moobob said:


> My primary question about the incident is: How many people died between SWAT arriving on scene, and the resolution of the incident?



See, that's just it.  You're asking the wrong question.



moobob said:


> Unfortunately it's something that local law enforcement (and their SWAT teams) are ill-prepared for, despite what members of both communities might think, and it's kind of ridiculous to imply they are prepared for it.



If you mean a Mumbai-style attack, I will say we're growing capacity in that area and leave it at that.  That capacity is greater in some areas of the country, lesser in others but nowhere is it where we in LE would like to see it.  But like I said, it's an area that we have been improving pretty much since Mumbai. 



moobob said:


> This type of incident hasn't been seen before in the United States, and it appears on the surface like more people may have gotten killed because of policies and decisions that are tailored to what law enforcement does have experience with.



I disagree.  Other than scale, the Pulse incident was nothing more than an active shooter. His motivation may have been different, but at the micro level he's a guy with a gun in a building.  This is a problem set for which we have an effective doctrine and which we know we can affect positively if we react quickly enough.  I'm not going to get into the weeds of the response to this incident, but I will say that when the AAR is done if fault is found it will be laid squarely at the feet of the command ranks, not the rank and file patrol and SWAT officers.  As with most things, poor leadership will override good tactical and technical proficiency.

It is highly disingenuous to imply law enforcement generally doesn't have the ability to deal with a barricaded subject, hostage situation or to effect a crisis entry to do HR if necessary.  But again, this circles us back to leadership's intestinal fortitude (in fairness, maybe this is the point you're trying to make).



moobob said:


> . Attacking whatever second-hand knowledge you can glean of (a few years of) my personal experience doesn't change the validity of my concerns, and my concern is that local law enforcement are out of their depth when it comes to an actual terrorist attack... and that will continue to be a problem if these types of attacks continue on U.S. soil. I wouldn't comment without some relevant knowledge and experience. I appreciate what police and SWAT cops do. Don't take it personally.



I haven't attacked your experience; I mentioned SOT-A only to make a point.  I respect your service and experience, so let's put that to bed.  I'll also concede that I believe your concerns are genuine and valid (to you) and your intent is honorable.  You must realize, however, that claiming to speak from a position of expertise (on domestic LE operations and SWAT specifically) and then refusing to divulge the basis of that expertise is not a tenable position.  If you've actually served in domestic law enforcement, and specifically in special operations, and therefore have a grasp of capabilities (particularly in a large, urban team) and the highly nuanced and dynamic environment we function in then just say so.  No one is asking for a CV of warrants you've served or how many hostage cases you've been in charge of.  Experience abroad--in certain CMFs--is also relevant, but due to the difference in accountability and other areas must be viewed accordingly.


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## moobob (Jun 21, 2016)

Pm.

Yes leadership and organizational culture are a lot of what I'm hinting at. As far as this being just another shooter... that managed to kill more people than before. I disagree. IMO this was like Mumbai... with one guy. The motivations  (and the will of the shooter) separate him from a lot of the other mass shootings. How many of those were ended by suicide? 

In Texas, they attacked what was basically a hardened target and got wrecked.


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## policemedic (Jun 21, 2016)

moobob said:


> Pm.
> 
> Yes leadership and organizational culture are a lot of what I'm hinting at. As far as this being just another shooter... that managed to kill more people than before. I disagree. IMO this was like Mumbai... with one guy. The motivations  (and the will of the shooter) separate him from a lot of the other mass shootings. How many of those were ended by suicide?
> 
> In Texas, they attacked what was basically a hardened target and got wrecked.



Many active shooters end in suicide, particularly when they begin to feel pressured (they know LE is responding/on scene, or their plan is falling apart, or they're batshit crazy to start with, etc.).  But not all of them end that way.

I'd agree this was Mumbai-like if he'd used IEDs effectively, if small unit tactics had been used, if multiple targets had been hit, if LE was specifically targeted, etc.  He did do other things that evidenced a certain level of sophistication, though.  

This should have been over within minutes, but it wasn't.  The investigators will have to determine why.  

As to Texas, well....shit.  Don't mess with Texas


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## Florida173 (Jun 21, 2016)

Would this have had a different result if Orlando had a full time dedicated SWAT team?


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## racing_kitty (Jun 21, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Would this have had a different result if Orlando had a full time dedicated SWAT team?



If they had a full time SWAT team whose leadership consisted of nothing but bellends and pissants, then probably not.  Piss poor leadership could botch any operation.  It would depend on the leadership and the training they had.  Just because there's a full time SWAT team does not mean they are full up on training for a Mumbai-style encounter.


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## Centermass (Jun 21, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Plus Orlando doesn't have a full-time SWAT.





policemedic said:


> This is incorrect and misleading. I am aware of several full-time teams in Florida.   Being on a team that is assigned collateral duties--part time is a misnomer in my view--doesn't imply reduced capability or availability. Side note: the Orlando chief of police is a former SWAT officer and served as the team's commander for quite a while.





Florida173 said:


> Would this have had a different result if Orlando had a full time dedicated SWAT team?



You know Fl, this is the second time you've brought this up...even after it's already been explained. Are you under the assumption that a SWAT unit, sits around, and waits for the call to come out and everyone comes blasting out of the bldg full bore and enroute to the scene within minutes?

In almost every agency with a SWAT capability, it doesn't work that way. You (The departments) have officers, who are Tm members, who wear 2 hats - 1 is their normal patrol / LE duties and 2, is their ability to mobilize to a command scene. stage and deploy. You have those who will be on duty at the time of an incident and others, may be off duty when the call goes out.

And yes, Orlando DOES have a SWAT capability. And that's how they work it, like most agencies do. The OCSD is responsible for it, not the Orlando PD.

As for the rest of the armchair QB'ng, the magnitude and scope of this crime has still yet to be completely uncovered as to all the facts, responses, causes and effect that took place subsequent to the shootings.

So far, this entire incident is still under investigation. And until it's complete, we still don't know all facts. Rushing to judgment, jumping to conclusions, or role playing 1st responder as to what someone might have done differently to save more lives etc etc etc, is best suited for those amateurs, sitting in their basements safely behind their keyboards.


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## Ex3 (Jun 21, 2016)

Just spitballing here, but I think this horrific incident has more to do with a man struggling to reconcile his sexual orientation with his religious beliefs than anything else. He came from a culture that murders homosexuals. He felt shame and self-loathing about his homosexual thoughts and actions. In his twisted mind, maybe he thought the only way he could 'redeem' himself and bring glory to his family is to pledge allegiance to ISIL,  kill dozens of infidels and go out in a blaze of glory. 

Omar Mateen had, at the very least, a sustained interest in homosexuality. He wasn’t a stranger at Pulse. One regular, Ty Smith, told the Orlando Sentinel he had seen him there on at least 12 occasions. “Sometimes he would go over in the corner and sit and drink by himself, and other times he would get so drunk he was loud and belligerent.” Note that Smith chose the word “belligerent” rather than “bigoted”. 

Then there’s his use of the dating app Jack’d. It describes itself as the “largest and fastest growing dating app for guys looking to meet guys. It’s fast, free and fun!” What was it doing on Mateen’s phone? A means of getting his blood up? Enraging himself so he’d be better able to fulfill his jihadist destiny? In that case, why message Pulse regular Kevin West “on and off for a year”?​Omar Mateen's interest in gay men makes this no ordinary act of terrorism | David Shariatmadari

From as early as his days at Indian River Community College, some friends and co-workers wondered whether Mateen was gay. Some simply assumed it.

One former classmate at the college told the Palm Beach Post that he believed Mateen was gay and that Mateen once tried to pick him up at a bar.

The classmate, who is gay but was not out yet in 2006, said he and Mateen and other classmates would sometimes go to gay nightclubs after classes. On one such evening, the classmate said, Mateen asked him whether he was gay, which he denied.

“He said, ‘Well if you were gay, you would be my type.’ I said okay and just went on with the night,” said the classmate, who was not identified by the newspaper. “It was not anything too crazy, but I take that as a pickup line.”​Troubled. Quiet. Macho. Angry. The volatile life of the Orlando shooter.


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## Florida173 (Jun 21, 2016)

Centermass said:


> You know Fl, this is the second time you've brought this up...even after it's already been explained. Are you under the assumption that a SWAT unit, sits around, and waits for the call to come out and everyone comes blasting out of the bldg full bore and enroute to the scene within minutes?
> 
> In almost every agency with a SWAT capability, it doesn't work that way. You (The departments) have officers, who are Tm members, who wear 2 hats - 1 is their normal patrol / LE duties and 2, is their ability to mobilize to a command scene. stage and deploy. You have those who will be on duty at the time of an incident and others, may be off duty when the call goes out.
> 
> And yes, Orlando DOES have a SWAT capability. And that's how they work it, like most agencies do. The OCSD is responsible for it, not the Orlando PD.



I don't believe I suggested that there wasn't a SWAT capability. What is the difference between Florida's SWAT teams and Orlando's SWAT capability?


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## Centermass (Jun 21, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> I don't believe I suggested that there wasn't a SWAT capability.



No, but in both comments, you continue to mention "A full time SWAT unit."




Florida173 said:


> What is the difference between Florida's SWAT teams and Orlando's SWAT capability?



I don't know. Let me go visit and train with each one and I'll get back to you in 6 months.........:wall:

Sarcasm aside, with regards to FL's major metropolitan units, probably, and more than likely, not all that much, (budget dictating of course) as most, if not all, do quite a bit of cross training between them.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 21, 2016)

There are several "part time teams" that meet and exceed NTOA standards for full time team status, with regards to training, policy and structure. The FBI Regional SWAT (Not to be confused with HRT) are technically  part time teams. Also many local teams are certified as regional areas of responsibility teams (regional response teams). Meaning they have the structure, leadership, equipment and training to do anything from an aircraft take down, to hostage rescue, infrastructure defense/retakes, etc. Now some teams may only have the capabilities to deal with local small issues, barricade persons, HR, high risk warrant. The capabilities, equipment and standards between regional response capable teams and the local SWAT squad can be night and day. 

With regards to the regional response teams, we're not just talking the local county/city LEA's only, we're also talking federal agencies with support assets across the full spectrum of government, with several levels of contingency's along the way and the continuity of command.

The big problem is time and Intel, with any incident like Orlando or Mumbai, its a time vs knowing the full picture. They can claim getting resources together, developing a plan, but the biggest issue of all was finding out what was going on inside the building (how many hostages, how many gun men, IED's, etc).

The incident in Garland Texas was very different. One they were expecting some form of protest, two the officers in Garland PD are highly (as in holy fuck) trained. They don't cut corners with their LEO training. Three, there is a difference in level of alertness from moonlighting a gay night club vs an anti Muhammad art exhibit. We may not want to admit that, but I'd be on my toes a bit more if I'm protecting an anti Muslim event vs night club. Right, wrong or indifferent, complacency is everywhere.

That all said, they killed this fucking asshole and managed to save several people in the process. Yes many died, that is not LE's fault, that's the fault of the asshole that stormed that club and started murdering innocent folks. And as much as we should pick apart what took place and address gaps and or failures in resolution of this style of attack. It shouldn't happen on an open board, that some future wannabe terrorist asshole is probably reading.

$.02


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## Florida173 (Jun 21, 2016)

Centermass said:


> No, but in both comments, you continue to mention "A full time SWAT unit."
> 
> I don't know. Let me go visit and train with each one and I'll get back to you in 6 months.........:wall:
> 
> Sarcasm aside, with regards to FL's major metropolitan units, probably, and more than likely, not all that much, (budget dictating of course) as most, if not all, do quite a bit of cross training between them.



I only keep referring to it as a full-time and part-time from my time talking with one of the former SWAT commanders in Orlando, my former unit commander, and going to and facilitating our SWAT roundup a few times. I may be wrong in the way I am describing it, but it seems to be pretty standard. Is this more of a pet peeve of yours, or more contemporary? Basic googling gives me simple things like this and even the SWAT Standards For Law Enforcement Agencies mentions full-time and part-time. So I don't know where you're coming from. My experience is limited, but informed.


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## Etype (Jun 21, 2016)

Ex3 said:


> Just spitballing here, but I think this horrific incident has more to do with a man struggling to reconcile his sexual orientation with his religious beliefs than anything else... maybe he thought the only way he could 'redeem' himself and bring glory to his family is to pledge allegiance to ISIL,  kill dozens of infidels and go out in a blaze of glory.


This is a pretty common theme in most radicalization cases. Not necessarily the homosexual aspect, but the gross overcompensation to regain good standing as a Muslim.

Islamic extremist leaders talk folks of similar backgrounds into being suicide bombers with roughly a, 'dying in the name of Islam will erase all of your sins,' argument.

I definitely wouldn't let his confused sexuality detract from the terrorist aspect.


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## Brill (Jun 21, 2016)

Etype said:


> This is a pretty common theme in most radicalization cases. Not necessarily the homosexual aspect, but the gross overcompensation to regain good standing as a Muslim.
> 
> Islamic extremist leaders talk folks of similar backgrounds into being suicide bombers with roughly a, 'dying in the name of Islam will erase all of your sins,' argument.
> 
> I definitely wouldn't let his confused sexuality detract from the terrorist aspect.



Add the element of Ramadan and the shaheed gets a non-stop ticket directly to paradise. Well, that is IF this was religiously motivated and not motivated by blood lust brought on by purchasing an AR-15 military style assault rifle.  The pending "no fly, no buy" legislation would have completely stopped this attack...had he been on somebody's watchlist.


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## policemedic (Jun 21, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Would this have had a different result if Orlando had a full time dedicated SWAT team?


 
This was not a SWAT problem.


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## Brill (Jun 21, 2016)

As I mentioned earlier, if the USG really wanted to stop these CONUS-based jihadists, they should immediately enact laws such as these that replace child pornography with IS killing images and radical Islamic hate speech that inspires Muslims to kill on their behalf.  Courts have repeatedly supported the idea that child porn is not protected by 1st Amendment and neither should IS killing and anti-American Islamic sermons.  If Islam really is a religion of peace (nope), then the moderate Imams would support laws like this as well since it targets radicals but yet still supports Islam.

Currently anyone can have TB's worth of IS killing images, clerics preaching kill Americans, bomb making lessons, etc on their devices yet high school kids exchange naked selfies only to be convicted sex offenders.  Had laws such as this been on the books, would San Bernardo, Chattanooga, Orlando, and even Ft. Hood even happened?  It DEFINITELY would have given LEOs probable cause to look further into their activities. 

Our priorities are really out of synch.  We should arm our LEOs with effective tools to stop the killing long before an American even begins to think "Shit, Abu Bakr may actually be right."


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## Brill (Jun 21, 2016)

Called it @Etype !

AG Loretta Lynch: Orlando gunman's motive may never be known


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## moobob (Jun 21, 2016)

Did An Ill-Advised Stand-Down Order Cost Lives In Orlando?

Did An Ill-Advised Stand-Down Order Cost Lives In Orlando?


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## Florida173 (Jun 21, 2016)

policemedic said:


> This was not a SWAT problem.





> “We just basically stayed there, waited for movement, and we just held our position until SWAT got there,” said Cornwell. “Once SWAT got there they told us to retreat, that they’d take over because we were not really in tactical gear — we were just in our police uniforms.” Cornwell estimates that it took 15 to 20 minutes, “maybe longer”  for the SWAT team to arrive.
> Did An Ill-Advised Stand-Down Order Cost Lives In Orlando?



Seems like there's a difference of opinion


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## policemedic (Jun 21, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Seems like there's a difference of opinion



Correct.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 22, 2016)

Color me surprised - 

AG Lynch Admits the FBI Has Lost Track of Omar Mateen’s Wife

_Attorney General Loretta Lynch admitted today that the FBI is unaware of the whereabouts of Omar Mateen's wife, Noor Salman. 

Salman has indicated she suspected Mateen was about to commit a terrorist attack, and even accompanied him to buy the weaponry he used to carry out the massacre. She insists, however, that as he left she tried to hold onto his arm so he wouldn't leave. If the FBI believes she was aware of the impending attack, she could be prosecuted. 

"Has the shooter’s wife left the state of Florida?" a reporter asked Lynch during her press conference Tuesday."Right now, I don’t know exactly the answer to that," Lynch candidly replied. "I believe she was going to travel but I do not know exactly her location now."_


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 22, 2016)

lindy said:


> Called it @Etype !
> 
> AG Loretta Lynch: Orlando gunman's motive may never be known



I think I am beginning to miss Janet Reno.


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## AWP (Jun 22, 2016)

Jesus Christ...and this is the same organization "investigating" the Clinton email server.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 22, 2016)

moobob said:


> Did An Ill-Advised Stand-Down Order Cost Lives In Orlando?
> 
> Did An Ill-Advised Stand-Down Order Cost Lives In Orlando?



Based on that article, I don't see that the responding officers or the decision to bring in SWAT was wrong. I won't dive into details, but their actions are consistent with the active shooter response training program I was involved with.

I'm not saying the patrol officers wouldn't have been successful in storming that bathroom and killing the shooter. However, they probably would have taken a loss or two and possibly changed a shit situation worse. I won't spell it out, but if I were barricaded in a bathroom, with a 5.56 semi auto, and 30 hostage's, it would be a bad fuckin day for a contact team of patrol officers to breach the only entry point, for the officers and the hostages. Once the shooter took hostage's and was barricaded in a small bathroom with one entry point, it was time for SWAT to take over. Emergency assault for active killing sure, but if they kept him buttoned up, got him on the phone talking, and ultimately breached and killed the fucker, I'm not seeing the problem. 

$.02


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## Centermass (Jun 22, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> So I don't know where you're coming from.



All right. Let me break it down, Barney style. Cutting through all the clutter, your overall point of contention is this: If there had been a FULL TIME SWAT TEAM that responded during this incident in particular, (Whether phrased in the form of your questions or statements) your belief is there would have been a difference. 



Florida173 said:


> My experience is limited, but informed.



Mine is my background in LE.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 22, 2016)

Centermass said:


> All right. Let me break it down, Barney style. Cutting through all the clutter, your overall point of contention is this: If there had been a FULL TIME SWAT TEAM that responded during this incident in particular, (Whether phrased in the form of your questions or statements) your belief is there would have been a difference.
> 
> 
> 
> Mine is my background in LE.



Based on that article I quoted, patrol responded in under a minute from the call, they contained the shooter in a bathroom full of hostages and SWAT relieved them in 20 minutes. Full time or part time team, that's an impressive response time IMO.


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## Florida173 (Jun 22, 2016)

Centermass said:


> All right. Let me break it down, Barney style. Cutting through all the clutter, your overall point of contention is this: If there had been a FULL TIME SWAT TEAM that responded during this incident in particular, (Whether phrased in the form of your questions or statements) your belief is there would have been a difference.
> 
> Mine is my background in LE.



I only asked if it would have made a difference. This is a point of discussion, not contention, and a couple of responded appropriately. I agree with @Diamondback 2/2 that it was an impressive response time for SWAT to be mobilized from each of their respective full-time roles to the scene.

My contention was that there is a difference between full-time and part-time SWAT. I came back with sources and my limited experience as a rebuttal to you and @policemedic, nothing more. I don't believe there is an issue here and that you just misunderstood the discourse.


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## Centermass (Jun 22, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> *This is a point of discussion, not contention*





Florida173 said:


> *My contention* was that there is a difference between full-time and part-time SWAT.



Dude, do you even think about what it is you post? I believe that's exactly what I just said in my last post. Geezus. I could care less about being right or having the last word, but honestly, this is ridiculous. 



Florida173 said:


> I don't believe there is an issue here and that you just misunderstood the discourse.



Yeah, you're right. It was me that misunderstood it.


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## Kraut783 (Jun 22, 2016)

"My contention was that there is a difference between full-time and part-time SWAT"

I think it all depends on how busy any team is, as far as experience.  Dallas has a full time SWAT team (three teams, that rotate) a lot of experience.  Garland SWAT is a part time team, and they are very good and have tons of experience. I have trained with both and my SWAT basic was with Garland SWAT.  I see no difference with the level of ability of either one of them.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 23, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> "My contention was that there is a difference between full-time and part-time SWAT"
> 
> I think it all depends on how busy any team is, as far as experience.  Dallas has a full time SWAT team (three teams, that rotate) a lot of experience.  Garland SWAT is a part time team, and they are very good and have tons of experience. I have trained with both and my SWAT basic was with Garland SWAT.  I see no difference with the level of ability of either one of them.



I cannot agree more with you on Garland SWAT, I've trained with several of their officers at a few courses. Dudes are locked the fuck on...

I think the differences between part time and full time teams, are the under equipped, under funded and under trained teams. The types that did a SWAT basic course and formed a team, but just don't have the kit, experience or training. Most of those types of part time teams, I don't even really consider a legitimate SWAT team, and are more of a fan boy warrant service team. Anything big goes down they are calling the closest real team and are pulling perimeter.

Texas has some really good teams, Dallas, Fort Worth, San Antonio, Austin , Houston, are all top notch teams, on a level above and beyond what you normally expect. There are also countless teams like Garland that just have rock solid teams that are as good (if not better) than many other large metro full time teams. I think the TTPOA has alot to do with that, especially the work they did developing high standards for SWAT teams enforced by the commission, etc. That and they have been very consistent in putting on really good training all over the state. Really good association to be a member of.

$.02


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## TLDR20 (Jun 23, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Color me surprised -
> 
> AG Lynch Admits the FBI Has Lost Track of Omar Mateen’s Wife
> 
> ...



Taking that quote and then extrapolating they don't know where she is is quite disingenuous.. It sounds like a board answer question, "I don't know, but I'll find out s'arnt..." I'm sure they have a pretty good idea.


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## Etype (Jun 23, 2016)

lindy said:


> Currently anyone can have TB's worth of IS killing images, clerics preaching kill Americans, bomb making lessons, etc on their devices yet high school kids exchange naked selfies only to be convicted sex offenders.


This is profound.

Video of a 15 year old girl being raped- illegal.
Video of a 15 year old girl being stoned- OK!


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## Kraut783 (Jun 23, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Taking that quote and then extrapolating they don't know where she is is quite disingenuous.. It sounds like a board answer question, "I don't know, but I'll find out s'arnt..." I'm sure they have a pretty good idea.



I wouldn't put too much stock in anything a DOJ rep says about this case.


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## Brill (Jun 23, 2016)

Etype said:


> This is profound.
> 
> Video of a 15 year old girl being raped- illegal.
> Video of a 15 year old girl being stoned- OK!



Even having that video is illegal. Same with sending or facilitating its transfer.

YouTube is FULL of Islamic killing and hate speech directed at killing Americans.  Totally legal.


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## DocIllinois (Jun 23, 2016)

lindy said:


> Even having that video is illegal. Same with sending or facilitating its transfer.
> 
> YouTube is FULL of Islamic killing and hate speech directed at killing Americans.  Totally legal.



What are you, against freedom of religious expression?


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## SpitfireV (Jun 23, 2016)

We just prosecuted the first and second guy for possessing and distributing ISIS material. 

One of them walked into the US Consulate with an ISIS t shirt and asked, "this place bomb proof?" Which if it weren't so serious would sound like a bad satire. 

Homegrown terror: 'Isis is here'


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## policemedic (Jun 23, 2016)

SpitfireV said:


> We just prosecuted the first and second guy for possessing and distributing ISIS material.
> 
> One of them walked into the US Consulate with an ISIS t shirt and asked, "this place bomb proof?" Which if it weren't so serious would sound like a bad satire.
> 
> Homegrown terror: 'Isis is here'



"Is your head bullet proof? Let's find out."


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 23, 2016)

We need to start issuing claw hammers to LE world wide, when these fucks pull stupid shit like that, the cops get to whack their dumbass in the head once. If they live, maybe they will wise up, if they don't, nothing lost on society.


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## policemedic (Jun 23, 2016)

Etype said:


> This is profound.
> 
> Video of a 15 year old girl being raped- illegal.
> Video of a 15 year old girl being stoned- OK!


Sometimes it makes your head spin. And not in an "I've seen @racing_kitty" way.


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## Brill (Jun 24, 2016)

DocIllinois said:


> What are you, against freedom of religious expression?



IS propaganda is akin to yelling "fire" in a crowded theater and inciting violence is illegal (Dennis v. US).

The goal of anti-child porn laws is to protect children because they are the intended victims. Americans should have the same protections against a group whose goals are to infringe upon our rights to life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness.


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## AWP (Jun 24, 2016)

lindy said:


> The goal of anti-child porn laws is to protect children because they are the intended victims.



Unless you spent the night at Neverland Ranch.


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## ThunderHorse (Jun 26, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Unless you spent the night at Neverland Ranch.


Yeah, then your parents are the predator, selling your body to Michael Jackson...when those legal cases came up it was sort of disgusting, as it was a open-secret they were all done under contract.  Back to this though.


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## AWP (Jul 16, 2016)

A pretty good timeline of the events.

Orlando nightclub shooting timeline: Three hours of terror unfold

It has two officers arriving at 2:04 (2 min. after), but they don't enter. 6-7 officers went in at 2:08 (6 min.). 2:18 is when the SWAT callout was initiated. Officers pinned him in the back by 2:22. The first SWAT officers to enter the club are listed at 2:45.


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## AWP (Aug 6, 2016)

The autopsy report's out. The shooter took 8 rounds.

Autopsy: Pulse shooter Omar Mateen shot eight times



> Mateen was likely not shot at close range, the autopsy report suggested. Most of the bullets went through and through and the majority entered his body from front to back, suggesting he was shot while facing police, likely during the standoff.
> 
> The toxicology report indicated Mateen was not under the influence of alcohol or illicit drugs the night of the shooting.


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## Loki (Sep 5, 2016)

Rapid said:


> Is anyone really surprised? 50% of Muslims in the UK believe that homosexuality should be illegal.
> 
> They hate women. They hate gays. And yet the lefties have a love affair with the religion of pieces. Problem is they also love anything to do with LGBT, so they must be going through some serious cognitive dissonance right now. Though I'm sure a bit of the usual denial will help them through this.



"You're hateful, insensitive and a bigot! "  -lefty media and zombee followers- ;)


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## pardus (Sep 9, 2016)

SpitfireV said:


> We just prosecuted the first and second guy for possessing and distributing ISIS material.
> 
> One of them walked into the US Consulate with an ISIS t shirt and asked, "this place bomb proof?" Which if it weren't so serious would sound like a bad satire.
> 
> Homegrown terror: 'Isis is here'



NZ is going to regret it's liberal immigration policies sooner or later, just like Europe is now.
Aussie warned us repeatedly years ago.


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## SpitfireV (Sep 9, 2016)

Agree to some extent.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 16, 2017)

Noor Salman, wife of Omar Mateen has been arrested in connection with the Pulse Night Club shooting.  Well, about damn time. 

https://www.nytimes.com/2017/01/16/...an-arrested-orlando-shooting-omar-mateen.html


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 5, 2018)

Update, she knew, yet not locked up: Pulse gunman's wife: I knew he was going to Orlando to attack


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## Topkick (Jan 5, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Update, she knew, yet not locked up: Pulse gunman's wife: I knew he was going to Orlando to attack



How in the hell does she sleep at night?


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## Chopstick (Mar 26, 2018)

The Mateen family.  The gift that keeps on giving.  
Noor Salman trial: Pulse gunman's father revealed as FBI informant, but judge won't dismiss case



> According to a motion filed by Salman’s lawyers, the defense team learned of Seddique Mateen’s work for the FBI on Saturday, in an email from prosecutor Sara Sweeney. Sweeney said the elder Mateen had been an FBI source “at various points” between January 2005 and June 2016. Seddique Mateen was on prosecutors’ witness list but they rested their case last week without calling him to testify.
> Sweeney also revealed that FBI agents investigating the shooting found receipts for money transfers to Turkey and Afghanistan between March 16, 2016, and June 5, 2016. On June 10, Omar Mateen searched for cheap tickets to Istanbul.
> Omar Mateen opened fire inside Pulse nightclub on June 12, 2016, killing 49 people.
> 
> Salman’s defense lawyers suggested his father sending money to Turkey and Afghanistan indicates Omar Mateen might have planned to travel to one of the countries to join a terrorist organization.



And Chop's personal favorite part of the shitshow...er story....



> Martin, the FBI special agent who oversaw Seddique Mateen as an informant after transferring to the FBI’s Miami division in 2006, also testified Monday about investigating Omar Mateen after co-workers at the security firm G4S reported in 2013 that Mateen had made comments about being connected to Al Qaeda, Hezbollah and the Muslim Brotherhood.
> Martin had Mateen’s supervisor wear a concealed recording device. It didn’t capture him making such statements again, Martin said.
> Martin, along with other law enforcement, later interviewed the younger Mateen three times at his apartment. Salman was home all three times, the agent testified.
> Mateen admitted making the comments but said he did so because he felt harassed at work.
> Martin said he considered trying to develop Mateen as an informant, like his father, after finding he didn’t have ties to terrorism. Omar Mateen would later claim allegiance to the Islamic State group in conversations with an Orlando police crisis negotiator as he carried out the mass shooting at Pulse.


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## DC (Mar 26, 2018)

So if you’re FBI informant you can get away with murder? Whitey Bulger did.


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