# NIcaragua up in flames again. Ortega bloodbath ignored this time.



## peregrino_nica (Jul 15, 2018)

Googled Genral Singlaub. Good man but 97 years old . Ollie not taking emails. Only thing they are asking as they start from scratch is return the weapons turned in in 1990. Verbal condemnations and cute irrelevant actions like Magnitsky act don't do shit to a bloody handed punk like Ortega.  Armed to the teeth by Russia, Cuba, Venezuela and Iran and 3 hour flight from Miami and once again US not doing shit. 
Nicaragua Dispatch Twitter


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## Marauder06 (Jul 15, 2018)

OK I'll bite.  What, exactly, is the US supposed to do?  I followed the link you posted.   Its said the following:



> Nicaragua's death toll since April 18 jumps to 351, with 2,100 injuries, 329 kidnappings by paramilitaries, 68 cases of torture, 261 people disappeared & still missing. Leading causes of death: 289 (firearms); 10 (burned); 5 (machete); 5 (knife); 4 (rocks); 2 (morteros) —#*ANPDH*



351 deaths since April 18.  That was almost three months ago.  *According to the New York Times*, 96 Americans *a day* die by gun violence here in the US.  So in the last three months, when Nicaragua lost 351 people, the US lost more than 8,000.  And that's just to gun violence.

Let Nicaragua fix their own shit.


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## peregrino_nica (Jul 15, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> OK I'll bite.  What, exactly, is the US supposed to do?  I followed the link you posted.   Its said the following:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Military intervention is option #1.  2,000 national police, 1,000 untrained thugs, 15,000 army. Helicopters but no planes.  Unarmed Nicaraguan people 95% of whom hate Ortega would support actively. Reason would be not just humanitarian but Ortega has created a staging point for Iran, Cuba and Russia, and before that believe it or not for Libya on our doorstep. Can't imagine would take more than a week to clean house. 

Option #2 is do what veteran organizations did in 80s and support the arming of Nicaraguan people via private sources.  

Gun violence is tragic in U.S. but not all of those killed were killed fighting unarmed for the same democratic, Christian principals that our founding fathers died for. And most or all of them had access to weapons thanks to our 2nd ammendment UNLIKE the Nicaraguan people. 

Just posting this in case any sympathetic ears. In our case it's a free country.


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## Topkick (Jul 15, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> Let Nicaragua fix their own shit.


Agree. By the way, the majority wanted Ortega in the 1980s (ie Iran-Contra.) So, it's their problem.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 15, 2018)

peregrino_nica said:


> Military intervention is option #1.  2,000 national police, 1,000 untrained thugs, 15,000 army. Helicopters but no planes.  Unarmed Nicaraguan people 95% of whom hate Ortega would support actively. Reason would be not just humanitarian but Ortega has created a staging point for Iran, Cuba and Russia, and before that believe it or not for Libya on our doorstep. Can't imagine would take more than a week to clean house.
> 
> Option #2 is do what veteran organizations did in 80s and support the arming of Nicaraguan people via private sources.
> 
> ...



No thank you.  I'm tired of fighting other peoples' civil wars.  I've seen how that movie ends.  Twice.  And if I'm not mistaken, we tried that in Nicaragua as well.

It "took a week" for us to defeat Iraq and it we've been there ever since.  Same thing with Afghanistan.

You're right; it is a free country.  So no one is stopping you, or anyone else, from buying legal guns here in the US and making your way south to Nicaragua.  

Intervening militarily in Nicaragua is not in our national interests right now, and until it is, I'm quite happy for us to not be involved.


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## peregrino_nica (Jul 15, 2018)

Topkick said:


> Agree. By the way, the majority wanted Ortega in the 1980s (ie Iran-Contra.) So, it's their problem.


Majority did *NOT* want Ortega in 1980s. Ortega was installed by the Cubans. That's why he was conscipting by force and lost by a landslide in internationally monitored 1990 elections. It is also why he blocked any truth commissions following the 80s war. The difference now is the atrocities are happening in the cities and now everyone has cell phone and social media.  Bush and Arias let Ortega retain control of army, national police and all the money which is how we ultimately got to this latest blood batch. Turnover in Nicaragua;   NICARAGUAN OPPOSITION ROUTS SANDINISTAS; U.S. PLEDGES AID, TIED TO ORDERLY TURNOVER


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## Marauder06 (Jul 15, 2018)

peregrino_nica said:


> Majority did *NOT* want Ortega in 1980s.



"At the 1984 general election Ortega won the presidency with 67% of the vote and took office on January 10, 1985."

Daniel Ortega - Wikipedia


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## Grunt (Jul 15, 2018)

Chicago is way more violent...and that is in our yard....

Nah...let's let some countries take care of their own problems for a while!


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## peregrino_nica (Jul 15, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> "At the 1984 general election Ortega won the presidency with 67% of the vote and took office on January 10, 1985."
> 
> Daniel Ortega - Wikipedia



Correct. He wins every election by a landslide when he counts the vote. Sheesh. Opinion | In Nicaragua, a Blatantly Rigged Election


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 15, 2018)

I dated a Nicaraguan chick for a few months, she was insanely hot... That is all I have to add to this thread.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 15, 2018)

peregrino_nica said:


> Correct. He wins every election by a landslide when he counts the vote. Sheesh. Opinion | In Nicaragua, a Blatantly Rigged Election




I can't read the article because I've exhausted my free articles in the NYT for this month and I refuse to pay for a subscription.  But it appears the articles references the recent elections.  The discussion we're having is about the election in the 1980s.

Lie: The Sandinistas Won’t Submit to Free Elections



> Yet according to the vast majority of independent observers, the 1984 elections were perhaps the freest and fairest in Nicaraguan history. A report by an Irish parliamentary delegation stated: “The electoral process was carried out with total integrity. The seven parties participating in the elections represented a broad spectrum of political ideologies.” The general counsel of New York’s Human Rights Commission described the election as “free, fair and hotly contested.” A study by the U.S. Latin American Studies Association (LASA) concluded that the FSLN (Sandinista Front) “did little more to take advantage of its incumbency than incumbent parties everywhere (including the U.S.) routinely do.”


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## Topkick (Jul 15, 2018)

I found it interesting that, according to this article, less than one year ago Ortega was extremely effective and popular. Granted, I don't know much about the source.
Nicaraguan President Daniel Ortega at 80% Approval Rating: Poll


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## usaf2t3 (Jul 15, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> I can't read the article because I've exhausted my free articles in the NYT for this month and I refuse to pay for a subscription.  But it appears the articles references the recent elections.  The discussion we're having is about the election in the 1980s.
> 
> Lie: The Sandinistas Won’t Submit to Free Elections



If you right-click the link and open in a private or incognito tab (depending on your browser of choice) you can read the article.


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## Topkick (Jul 15, 2018)

I've always been fascinated with Iran- Contra and the Nicaraguan revolution. I served in that era and remember the stir vividly. So naturally I want to know more, but I'm having a hard time understanding exactly who is currently protesting Ortega. So far, it seems that its mostly pockets of college students, but I've also read several Nicaraguan people mention this odd term they call "fake news"I'll be paying more attention to these current events.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 15, 2018)

Ortega has done some unpopular stuff, tries to cut social programs, pensions, etc.he has also, taken a majority in their congress, had laws rewritten to keep him in power, made his wife his vice, etc... standard dictator stuff. People are pushing back, and he has instructed his security forces to eliminate resistance, so people have been killed at protests and the hammer hits the anvil... 

I love the America's, South, Centeral and North. And on a personal level, I would love to have some cultural exchange, rub up against their women and kill the bad guys... But I agree with @Marauder06, nothing significant enough to involve our forces, especially with the current world bullshit. I'm sure our super secret ninjas are playing ball in some capacity....


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## AWP (Jul 16, 2018)

A fair election doesn't mean a good person was elected and it doesn't mean that person's interests (and the country's) align with the US. From the 40's on, that was grounds for some sweet, sweet CIA action....


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 16, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I love the America's, South, Centeral and North. And on a personal level, I would love to have some cultural exchange, rub up against their women and kill the bad guys... But I agree with @Marauder06, nothing significant enough to involve our forces, especially with the current world bullshit. I'm sure our super secret ninjas are playing ball in some capacity....


We don't fight wars like that anymore homez.  Plenty of bad guys for you, but no womenz.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 17, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> OK I'll bite.  What, exactly, is the US supposed to do?  I followed the link you posted.   Its said the following:
> 
> 
> 
> ...





Agoge said:


> Chicago is way more violent...and that is in our yard....
> 
> Nah...let's let some countries take care of their own problems for a while!


Kinda ironic that the liberal cesspool/paradise known as Chicago, has more violence than a nation run by a tin pot despot. Keep it classy Chicago.


AWP said:


> A fair election doesn't mean a good person was elected and it doesn't mean that person's interests (and the country's) align with the US. From the 40's on, that was grounds for some sweet, sweet CIA action....


Maybe, some sweet CIA action would be a good thing to curb the spread of Chinese influence in Central America. This is just me, but I think it's in our long term interest to keep Chinese multinational businesses out of Central America. Countries like Nicaragua, just seem like they would be easy pickings for the PRC to set roots in.


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## Gunz (Jul 18, 2018)

peregrino_nica said:


> Correct. He wins every election by a landslide when he counts the vote. Sheesh. Opinion | In Nicaragua, a Blatantly Rigged Election




Good to see you back, @peregrino_nica ... it's been a long time. Appreciate your service with the Arde Frente Sur against the Communists. _Abajo con Ortega, abajo con los Sandinistas. _

Time is running out for that fucker after 11 years as presidente.


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## Devildoc (Jul 18, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> It "took a week" for us to defeat Iraq and it we've been there ever since.  Same thing with Afghanistan.



We are great at winning wars.  We suck at maintaining peace.  

With regards to Nicaragua, not our monkeys, not our circus.


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## Gunz (Jul 18, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> We are great at winning wars.  We suck at maintaining peace.
> 
> With regards to Nicaragua, _*not our monkeys, not our circus*_.




I (cordially disagree.). What happens in Nicaragua, Venezuela, Columbia, Panama, Honduras, El Salvador, Belize, Guatemala, Mexico, etc. effects us significantly. These are all states where drug and human trafficking, Communism/Socialism, gun-running, money-laundering, the _maras _(M18, MS13), FARC, ELN, M19, the Mexican Cartels, the EPR, the Maoist People's Army, Chinese Triads and Snakeheads, the PRC's Ministry of State Security operate with considerable impunity. What happens in S. and Central America, if not our circus now, eventually becomes our circus.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 18, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> We don't fight wars like that anymore homez.  Plenty of bad guys for you, but no womenz.




Send me to war in Centeral America and see how fast the demographic changes. A bunch of light haired, blue/green eyed kids running around asking every American they meet "are you my dad"...

I'm not even kidding, I have a weakness for brown women who speak Spanish. I quite laterally lose my mind, fall in love and want to marry them all..!😁


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## SaintKP (Jul 18, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> 'm not even kidding, I have a weakness for brown women who speak Spanish. I quite laterally lose my mind, fall in love and want to marry them all..!😁



It's an incurable curse, I've tried soul searching, talking to god, manchurian candidate style brainwashing, nothing works. It literally caused me to learn Spanish and become a honest to god fan of soccer to impress a girl.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 18, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> We are great at winning wars.  We suck at maintaining peace.
> 
> With regards to Nicaragua, not our monkeys, not our circus.



That’s partially because that shouldn’t be our job.  The people whose job it is aren’t u tot the task.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 18, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> not our monkeys, not our circus.


Second time I’ve heard that phrase today....hmmm.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 18, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Second time I’ve heard that phrase today....hmmm.


I love that phrase.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 18, 2018)

This thread reminds me of my classmates in grad school who constantly asked me why "we" (as in, me, the US military) weren't "doing something" about Syria.  They were stunned that I didn't want to jump on the first thing smoking to go over there and fight... whoever... and save... whoever.  I told them the same thing:  if you feel so strongly about it, head on over and "do something" yourself.  I'm not going to feel bad about not being in a hurry to get involved in another expensive and endless political black hole.  People all over the world make all kinds of noise about how their countries' problems were caused by America, but if you peel it back just a little, like we've done in this thread, you see that their issues are largely of their own making.

We can't be good at everything, everywhere, all the time and our resources aren't endless.  We need to be choosy about where, and what, we commit.  This last part is especially important to me, having been one of the people who got "sent," and is still in the pool of "sendees," and whose children will likely be in the next generation to go.  It's not America's job to take care of "not America."  We should only go in heavy in other countries when it's to our great and lasting benefit.  I didn't see that with Syria and I don't see it with Nicaragua. 

The World:  "Amerikkka's white imperialism and colonialism are the root of literally all the world's problems.  Stay out of other countries!!"
Also The World:  "Why isn't America DOING SOMETHING???"


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## Muppet (Jul 19, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I dated a Nicaraguan chick for a few months, she was insanely hot... That is all I have to add to this thread.




Pics?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 19, 2018)

Muppet said:


> Pics?



The pictures of my wife speak for themselves...😉


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## Devildoc (Jul 19, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Second time I’ve heard that phrase today....hmmm.



My wife's favorite phrase.  She uses it when one of her sisters tries to suck her into something stupid which takes time away from our family.


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## Grunt (Jul 19, 2018)

We are peacemakers and not peacekeepers. Our elected officials are failing at their jobs, not our military.

Like I have said before, bring back the Department of War....


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## BloodStripe (Jul 22, 2018)

Im all for sending our guy's and gal's to safeguard the tobacco fields. Nicaraguan cigars are my fav.


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## Topkick (Jul 22, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Im all for sending our guy's and gal's to safeguard the tobacco fields. Nicaraguan cigars are my fav.


And coffee.


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## Polar Bear (Jul 22, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> I (cordially disagree.). What happens in Nicaragua, Venezuela, Columbia, Panama, Honduras, El Salvador, Belize, Guatemala, Mexico, etc. effects us significantly. These are all states where drug and human trafficking, Communism/Socialism, gun-running, money-laundering, the _maras _(M18, MS13), FARC, ELN, M19, the Mexican Cartels, the EPR, the Maoist People's Army, Chinese Triads and Snakeheads, the PRC's Ministry of State Security operate with considerable impunity. What happens in S. and Central America, if not our circus now, eventually becomes our circus.


We will never be able to change anything unless we can get rid of the corruption in most of the countries you mentioned.


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## Topkick (Jul 22, 2018)

Polar Bear said:


> We will never be able to change anything unless we can get rid of the corruption in most of the countries you mentioned.


Agree, and the "lesser of two evils " regime change policy ( not saying we would ever participate in that ) hasn't been effective in most cases. Corruption always seems to continue almost seamlessly.


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## peregrino_nica (Jul 22, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Good to see you back, @peregrino_nica ... it's been a long time. Appreciate your service with the Arde Frente Sur against the Communists. _Abajo con Ortega, abajo con los Sandinistas. _
> 
> Time is running out for that fucker after 11 years as presidente.


Thanks brother!


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## peregrino_nica (Jul 22, 2018)

Really cool so many people read and responded to this thread. Always liked the great people on this forum like CAR (RIP), RB, and some others.  Some funny tangents to address before getting back to the serious stuff.
Nicaraguan women - Yes. Many are super hot. So are Costa Rican chicks fyi. They tolerate a little cultural "mujerero" stuff too, which is a bonus.
Nicaraguan cigars - IMO best _cheap_ cigars in world. Joyas in particular.  Cubans and Cohibas might be a little better on high end, but who can afford.
Nicaraguan Rum - Flor de Caña is the best in the world

On the serious issue of helping the Nicaraguan people defend themselves against Ortega's Soviet Armed Death Squads, just checking if anyone knew of any private organizations similar to the 1980s who might care. I'm somewhat like Austin Powers when he got thawed out.  With Ronald Reagan as cheer leader were lots of private orgs in 80s. For example Civilian Military Assistance, Native American Groups, SOF Magazine, also some great folks in east Texas. They are all defunct now as far as I can figure out.  Singlaub 97, Robert K Brown in 80s, Ollie MIA having a money fight with Montgomery Burns or something. Was wondering if there are any private aid groups now days? This WSJ article on Syria and private aid gives some hope.

So no, I would hate to see American sons and daughters die in Nicaragua. I don't think that is necessary.  But Putin, China, Iran and Hezbollah are having a field day in Cuba, Nicaragua, and Venezuela because USA seems to have a complex about interventions that happened back in 1933. So letting Putin give 50 T72 tanks and Anti Aircraft weapons and other arms to Ortega, build a 4 story embassy to track satellites and who knows what else.  Nicaraguans are being rounded up and slaughtered by Soviet weapons while US refuses to supply the innocent democracy loving people with weapons to fight back. Seems like they are pissing all over us in our back yard.  Putin just has to give a few million every year to prop up these regimes because our government does absolutely nothing for fear of being called "imperialist" over 1933. Crazy if you ask me.

So up to large ex pat communities in Miami, California and Houston to come together with folks inside and in CR, Honduras, El Salvador and figure out solution to the the ISIS style slaughter. Thanks to all the folks who took the time to read!

Peregrino


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 22, 2018)

Who is the Ortega opposition leader? What is his or her background. Who steps in and fills the void? In a country that has been dictatorship prone and currently having a major centralizing of power, what do you think that power vacume looks like, if Ortega is overthrown via armed conflict?

Everything I've been reading is that the protest and demonstration were primarily by college kids. Is there any centralized group? They are calling for Ortega to resign and stating that want change, what does that look like, democratic elections? Who is the guy they want to bring that change?

Ortega would do well to extract what wealth he can and seek asylum somewhere a bit further south. But what would happen if he actually did that? In many cases you lose a dictator for a more aggressive dictator. Especially in that region, who is the next military leader looking to rule with a iron fist and extract wealth from the government? Because if a bunch of citizens start shooting up the place and Ortega doesn't resign, that is exactly what is likely to happen. Some General is going to claim he for the people, take out Ortega, establish normalized government under military rule, host a sham election use his now popularity to get elected and establish his new dictatorship. It will be fine for awhile, but ever so slowly, it will get worse and worse, while General President whoeverthefuck will get richer and richer...

Any of that sound familiar?


Nicaraguans should be upset and they should move to remove Ortega from power. But they should be careful how they decide to do so. Full on armed conflict is probably the worst idea right now. A trust worthy leader needs to be established and an attempt at political oppositions, before jumping in with both feet. As shown historically, a rush to civil war doesn't normally work well, and leaves countries heavily divided and politically broken. It can take half a century sometimes for things to even start to move on. That vs a few political moves and Ortega goes away and the country moves on.

As for the arming of citizens to "protect" themselves. I think the first citizen to shoot a police or military/paramilitary official, will turn the government on the people and it will turn into a real blood bath. Probably not the best move at this point.

As far as the United States are involved, I'm sure we will sanction the Ortega government, we will probably freeze some accounts and most likely send some secret squirrels down there to influence and get a ground level picture of whats going on.

But the days of conexes full of weapons and ammo being dropped off are a bit further down the road at this point.

Just my humble opinion, and the reason for many of the question, as they are unknowns to me.


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## peregrino_nica (Jul 22, 2018)

Long story short, all sectors young and old, country and city, creole and indian in the east, cities in the west, campesinos in north and south are in open rebellion. Vibrant democracy right accross the border in Costa Rica as a model. Piricuacos (means "mad dog", miskito indian word for Orteguistas) are going door to door all over the country killing any opposition. I don't think Russia does any deep thinking while arming and enabling Ortega's death squads in their slaughter fest. Here's a pic of their handy work from Lovago Nicaragua a few days ago.

Mod Edit - Pic removed due to subject and question as to it's accuracy. 

Rah'


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## peregrino_nica (Jul 22, 2018)

This will make me look like a dip shit but I believe in being honest. I get a lot of pictures sent to me. Shouldn't have posted that one in the heat of the moment. I can't verify that one is accurate since got it second hand. Doesn't seem to allow me to edit and remove from the post. But plenty of real pics of innocents being killed right now if this one turns out to be not Lovago.  My apologies either way.  Probably why idiots like me should stay off the web.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 22, 2018)

peregrino_nica said:


> Doesn't seem to allow me to edit and remove from the post.



Taken care of.  Thanks for follow up and reporting that you could not assure its authenticity.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 22, 2018)

peregrino_nica said:


> This will make me look like a dip shit but I believe in being honest. I get a lot of pictures sent to me. Shouldn't have posted that one in the heat of the moment. I can't verify that one is accurate since got it second hand. Doesn't seem to allow me to edit and remove from the post. But plenty of real pics of innocents being killed right now if this one turns out to be not Lovago.  My apologies either way.  Probably why idiots like me should stay off the web.



I don't think you're an idiot, and I don't think you should stay off the web.  I think you have interesting things to say, and even if I disagree with some of them sometimes, doesn't mean you should stop.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 22, 2018)

peregrino_nica said:


> This will make me look like a dip shit but I believe in being honest. I get a lot of pictures sent to me. Shouldn't have posted that one in the heat of the moment. I can't verify that one is accurate since got it second hand. Doesn't seem to allow me to edit and remove from the post. But plenty of real pics of innocents being killed right now if this one turns out to be not Lovago.  My apologies either way.  Probably why idiots like me should stay off the web.



I was by no means trying to be a jerk in my post, just asking questions and offering opinions based on historical facts. I've also seen and have enough pictures to know what oppression from the barrel of a gun looks like. 

That said, I respect your opinion, you of all people on this board are invested in this. However, again, there is just not enough information available (open source) to know what the "replacment government" would look like. Hints my questions and offered opinions.


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## Gunz (Jul 22, 2018)

So many hands in the pie. Hezbollah has been active in the Paraguay TBA for years and has moved into Central America laundering money and selling drugs. The Chinese are doing their infrastructure projects in Honduras and want to build the Nicaraguan Canal...but as always with the PRC, any business initiative is inextricably linked with the State. Chavez wanted to be the vanguard of Communism in Latin America and both he and Ortega I think saw themselves as Fidel's successor in that role.

A lot of outside influences, Iran, North Korea, the PRC, Chinese and Russian organized crime, a myriad of official and unofficial, semi-legal and outright criminal players, have used our preoccupation with the ME,  Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan etc to worm into our backyard.

I doubt we'll come to the rescue in Nicaragua, or anywhere else in the region...even though we are threatened from that quarter. We're focused on the Indo-Pacific, on the PRC proper, on Putin, on Syria, Iran, Afghanistan still and NK...while many of these states have been actively subverting our interests from Mexico southward.


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## SpitfireV (Jul 22, 2018)

I think any developed country has an obligation out of self interest to promote stability in their immediate region. For us that is the nearer Pacific Islands and some of the ones that straddle Asia/Pacific. That promotion, IMO, should include military or covert action only as an exceptionally last resort and diplomatic measures should be the order of the day. Obviously I'm speaking generally here since each place is different, the situation and players are different and everything is context dependant.


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