# Is the Veteran Community Making Veteran Suicide Worse?



## Marauder06 (Mar 15, 2015)

> Veterans kill themselves at the rate of 22 every day, and what does the veteran community do about it? Encourage more of it.



An interesting perspective here, one I hadn't thought of before.  This definitely DOES NOT apply to our community here on ShadowSpear; the teasing is good-natured and the mods and admins quickly shut down any assclownery that even comes close to what is shown in the story.  But I've seen the extremes discussed in the article many times in many different places.  I encourage you to read the article and not just respond to the title or the short excerpt I posted above.

http://www.havokjournal.com/culture/22tozero-veterans-are-making-it-worse/


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## Worldweaver (Mar 16, 2015)

Interesting article.  It seems that most of the issues come from social media and the need for validation and acceptance.  While 99% of the conversations involve good natured competitiveness and inter-service rivalry, there are the small numbers of, "you are a worthless piece of shit...fucking die" type posts. 

As always, I think it depends on the individual and the "place" they are in at the time.  Those service members that are on the edge and possibly thinking about suicide are always more susceptible changes in self-efficacy, whether that comes from fellow servicemen, music, movies, or a Facebook post. 

Continue to watch out for your brothers and sisters out there. 

RTLW


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## Etype (Mar 16, 2015)

Interesting read.

I guess we need to fall back on the old, "everyone's job was/is important.". I don't want to change oil or cook bacon- I'm glad there's someone there to do it, though.



EVEN THOUGH THEY'RE DORKS!!!!
Just kidding guys, but seriously...


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## 0699 (Mar 16, 2015)

Probably written by a pogue fobbit that never even left the wire...

Bitch.


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## RackMaster (Mar 16, 2015)

I think the social media link is key now.  Most are pretty isolated when they reach the decision of suicide and the anonymity of the Interwebz may give them the strength to reach out.  Then we hammer them because "they can't be fucked up, I saw worse shit and I'm OK"; which is bullshit.  If someone rolls an ankle, after we tell them they are pussies and then offer a hand to help them carry on.  BUT you don't see a mental injury.  So you call them more than a pussy and march on without the sack of shit... 

We need to offer that hand to anyone that "stumbles", physical or mental.  No more eating our own.


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## Florida173 (Mar 16, 2015)

Not a big fan of Huffington Post, but they make a compelling argument on the validity of the numbers stated.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/dustin-demoss/veteran-suicide-rate_b_6417182.html


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## RackMaster (Mar 16, 2015)

The numbers are irrelevant, even 1 is to many...


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## Brill (Mar 16, 2015)

Etype said:


> Interesting read.
> 
> I guess we need to fall back on the old, "everyone's job was/is important.". I don't want to change oil or cook bacon- I'm glad there's someone there to do it, though.
> 
> ...



If I'm reading you correctly, you give off a bad "vibe".


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## Brill (Mar 16, 2015)

In all sincerity, I openly wonder the number military suicides compared to those on anti-depressants or any other mood altering drug.  Bottom line, the majority of that shit advertised on TV clearly states that a side effect is suicidal thoughts.  Why in hell is that acceptable treatment?

I would also like to see numbers for military suicides during the draft era vs post 9/11 when we lowered enlistment standards.

Finally here's my beef: I know a ARNG soldier (admin FOBBIT) who claimed PTSD because they were in a convoy that got lost from Phoenix to BAF and got medically retired.  I also know an 11B who was attached to my same ODA and a SVBIED exploded on the other side of his driver's door.  He lived but attempted suicide upon return to CONUS.  Discharged and on his own.


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## Salt USMC (Mar 16, 2015)

lindy said:


> I would also like to see numbers for military suicides during the draft era vs post 9/11 when we lowered enlistment standards.


This VA study from 2012 addresses that - somewhat.  http://www.va.gov/opa/docs/suicide-data-report-2012-final.pdf
Data from tables on pages 20 and 22 that during the sampled years (1999-2010) the Vietnam-era veterans (age group 50-59 and 60-69 are the closest approximations) accounted for a larger number of suicides per year than the post-9/11 generation (29/younger and 30-39).  Now, that's only for recent decades.  I've tried to find reliable studies that take data from the decades following the Vietnam war, but those are difficult to find.  There is a comparative study on PTS rates, which showed that Vietnam vets and post-9/11 vets reported PTS at roughly the same rate.


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 16, 2015)

Good article - It makes me think of the culture of this forum compared to just a few years ago.  Folks would get savaged in an intro that referred to SEAL's as "seals", sharks circled the waters waiting for the okay to dog-pile.  Over the past years there has been a noticeable and overt attempt by the mods and admins to get this under control - overall intros are now a safe-zone, there is still the occasional feeding frenzy, but someone really has to show their ass for that to happen.  Even then, it eventually gets locked down or the user is banned...I think back to the nurse from a few months ago (I think she was a nurse), it took her about 2 posts to get this place going - some pretty strongly written posts were written, and I recall @pardus  showing  incredible patience - especially since he was the one being attacked by her.  In the end, she was banned, most of the insulting posts (from her and from members) were pruned, and life moved on.  This really has evolved into into a site where learning happens and those looking for advice are not immediately tossed aside because they did not know how to properly ask the question they are trying to ask.


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## Etype (Mar 17, 2015)

lindy said:


> In all sincerity, I openly wonder the number military suicides compared to those on anti-depressants or any other mood altering drug.  Bottom line, the majority of that shit advertised on TV clearly states that a side effect is suicidal thoughts.  Why in hell is that acceptable treatment?


I wouldn't consider anything I go through as a problem, but I make a conscious effort not to drink or anything when my mind is wandering/racing/whatever.

Some friends who have been hurt pretty bad have gone on some roller coaster rides, which I would believe to be strongly linked to their pain meds.

It's not high school anymore- the mind altering substances carry pretty heavy implications.


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## RetPara (Mar 17, 2015)

It's the combinations that REALLY screw your head up.   For most of last year I was in a REALLY bad place because my Psycho prescribed me some meds, in combination that really had me fucked up.  It's only been the past 3-4 months that my head has been straight.   The shit can sneak up on you so slowly that you don't notice it happening.


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## reed11b (Mar 17, 2015)

RackMaster said:


> The numbers are irrelevant, even 1 is to many...


Unfortunately, that may not be a realistic goal. The majority of Veteran suicides come from the male 20-25 category, a group that commits suicide at very high rates outside the military as well. A large percentage of Veteran suicides are service members that have not deployed. Suicide is going to happen in the Military due to the demographics of who joins. It's when the suicide rate for service members is higher than the same population on the civilian side that the alarm needs to be raised.
Currently the suicide rate* is* higher in the military, (first year was ’09 or ’10 I believe) hence the increased concern and focus.
Reed


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## RackMaster (Mar 17, 2015)

@reed11b I agree but at what % of loss is acceptable?  There should be more focus on prevention both in and out of the military community.  Suicide prevention and mental health awareness should be a medical priority.

Meds are a funny thing, it's not an exact science and we all have different chemical make-ups in our melons.  One med or dosage could work for one and not the other.  It took me 2 years and a half dozen meds before the "right" one sorted me out.  Even then, alterations to dosage and additional meds have been needed over the years.  For some it's not needed but I've accepted my brain doesn't function right without some help.


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## Brill (Mar 17, 2015)

Etype said:


> I wouldn't consider anything I go through as a problem, but I make a conscious effort not to drink or anything when my mind is wandering/racing/whatever.



Right there with you brother (after learning the hard way). Alcohol makes things 1000 times worse.  When things get weird, I reach out to buddies I was with, not to bring up the same "holy shit that was close" stories but to just talk. Wonder if it's the association of safety with the same voice on the "radio"? Dunno but it seems to work.


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## Brill (Mar 17, 2015)

RetPara said:


> It's the combinations that REALLY screw your head up.   For most of last year I was in a REALLY bad place because my Psycho prescribed me some meds, in combination that really had me fucked up.  It's only been the past 3-4 months that my head has been straight.   The shit can sneak up on you so slowly that you don't notice it happening.



Bet if you ask coworkers or family, they could see the immediate change.


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## pardus (Mar 17, 2015)

reed11b said:


> Unfortunately, that may not be a realistic goal. The majority of Veteran suicides come from the male 20-25 category, a group that commits suicide at very high rates outside the military as well. A large percentage of Veteran suicides are service members that have not deployed. Suicide is going to happen in the Military due to the demographics of who joins. It's when the suicide rate for service members is higher than the same population on the civilian side that the alarm needs to be raised.
> Currently the suicide rate* is* higher in the military, (first year was ’09 or ’10 I believe) hence the increased concern and focus.
> Reed



A, the Military is a tough job, mentally and physically. Some thrive on it others do not. An option to look at would be a waiver of the contract agreement that binds certain people into a place they really don't want to be, and feel trapped due to their contractual obligation.
B, the Military needs to stop thinking that fucking people over is an acceptable part of the service. Yeah shit happens, but fucking someone just because, unacceptable.


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## Etype (Mar 18, 2015)

There is no sample to compare us to, but I wonder how we compare to similar civilian groups.

Even then, steps should be taken both among peers and program driven to make us more resilient than comparable groups of individuals.


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## RetPara (Mar 18, 2015)

lindy said:


> Bet if you ask coworkers or family, they could see the immediate change.



Well... no has told me I can't choke people when I get pissed...  for a while....   but then that person took a job in another state....  hard to tell if my brandy consumption has really declined since it's Lent and have given up cheap liquor....  good brandy is fucking expensive....


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## HOLLiS (Mar 18, 2015)

http://articles.latimes.com/2013/dec/20/science/la-sci-sn-veteran-suicide-statistics-20131219

A article on the same topic.    I think the inferences are way off.   Veterans do reflect our society but like our society there are all kinds/types.   Those who were on the sharp end of the spear is a smaller number than the rest.   They all serve, but not all the same way.  One can say that about all Americans are Americans but they all don't live in the same state or do the same job.  

As far as vets being hard on each other,  Americans are hard on each other too.  Only time I experienced the negative aspect was during the Viet-Nam war,  some (key word) vets feel for the anti-war mantra and would berate those currently serving.    I am not sure if they where peace time vets or what their jobs were.   After that,  the poser thing can be a issue.  Vets can flame another in reactions to our world of posers.  We have something like 10 times the Viet-Nam posers currently then we have real vets of that war. 

I think the community today is more supportive of vets than in the past.   The 1991 mantra was support the soldiers helped.   For me it was the first time after the Viet-Nam war that vets had a positive status in the US.   That was from the majority of society.  Currently, the VA seems to be doing more and so is our society, look at Veteran Trial Court.  

I think the veteran community does have a impact.  I would not claim it makes things worse.  Some Veterans may, but on the whole, I think the community is more responsive to helping other vets.  

I would place the blame on our media, social net work and politicians, who voted for the war before they voted against the war.   Support does not mean creating a political environment of doubt and deceit about the war.   Our elected officials play with our military conflicts to get votes, even when that goes against supporting our military members.

I wonder is this a social slide back to the 60's and 70's when the veterans were blamed for our elected officials screw ups?


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 18, 2015)

The article does make one think about what, and how threads are started, and the subsequent replys thereafter. The social media networks have been cited in the past, particularly in the teen age years where young minds struggle with so many things; and where peer pressure can drive so much. There are many, many doors that lead someone down the dangerous slope that becomes pain that can no longer be lived with. Quite often, the issue is anger over something the person may or may not be able to recognize. The anger/rage is turned inward, and can consume a person totally, with suicide being seen as the only way to stop the pain. I think the article is timely and thought provoking. Veteran's internet sites are many, and they are quite varied in their approach to new comers, and the issues they bring to the boards. In a way, they are a rather loose form of group therapy, with the accent over loose. If you listen to some of the AA members with some years of sobriety behind them, they have a lot to say about particular groups. Key, from what some say, is finding the AA group that works for you, finding a sponsor, and staying with that group. I hope we are of some value to veterans who stop by, and stay with us.


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## pardus (Mar 18, 2015)

@HOLLiS brings something up that I'd forgotten about from years gone by.

At a local RSA (VFW/AL) in New Zealand years ago, a Vietnam vet was speaking about combat/war, when he finished, a WWII vet stood up and derided him for being in a joke kind of war "not a real war like we had against a professional army in WWII".
At that point another WWII vet stood up and addressed the derider. He said words to the effect of  'That Vietnam Vet was a Grunt, just like I was in WWII, he fought and killed, and was trying to be killed by a skilled enemy. YOU were a fucking driver, WTF would you know about combat against a "real" enemy? Shut your fucking mouth you pouge bastard!".

I always thought that was an awesome response. I never saw an ounce of animosity between WWII and Vietnam vets, but I was late in the game and certainly heard about some of it. It was SIGNIFICANTLY worse in the USA than it was in NZ from what I've been told.  

I always thought is was disgraceful for vets to look down upon other vets like was done here between the WWII and Korean and Vietnam vets.


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## Mac_NZ (Mar 19, 2015)

Oddly enough T there is now a massive disconnect between the RSA and current veterans from the last 3 rodeos.  A lot of the RSA committees are no longer actual veterans and the tales of rude behavior, being made to feel unwelcome and total lack of support for issues are doing the rounds on the various unit Facebook pages.


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## digrar (Mar 19, 2015)

On our side of the Tasman the clubs have been taken over to become entertainment precincts, the sub branches remain and like all small organisations are heavily dependent on the prevailing personalities. 
 That's two strikes for the RSL for most blokes and it's increasingly becoming disconnected from veterans under 50 who are increasingly linking up with their contemporaries online to offer/seek/receive support.


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## RackMaster (Mar 19, 2015)

The same thing has happened here with the Royal Canadian Legion, just a cheap place for anyone to drink.


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## pardus (Mar 19, 2015)

Mac_NZ said:


> Oddly enough T there is now a massive disconnect between the RSA and current veterans from the last 3 rodeos.  A lot of the RSA committees are no longer actual veterans and the tales of rude behavior, being made to feel unwelcome and total lack of support for issues are doing the rounds on the various unit Facebook pages.





digrar said:


> On our side of the Tasman the clubs have been taken over to become entertainment precincts, the sub branches remain and like all small organisations are heavily dependent on the prevailing personalities.
> That's two strikes for the RSL for most blokes and it's increasingly becoming disconnected from veterans under 50 who are increasingly linking up with their contemporaries online to offer/seek/receive support.





RackMaster said:


> The same thing has happened here with the Royal Canadian Legion, just a cheap place for anyone to drink.



That's bloody sad. Understandable with the reasoning of the WWII guys are rapidly dying off, Korea, Malaya, Borneo, Vietnam, Timor ETC... had very few participants, not enough to sustain the WWII numbers and the various organizations were desperately trying to stay afloat and admitted members who were not vets.
But now it's to the point where vets are not welcome/comfortable? WTF?! I used to love going to the RSA back home and listening to the war stories from the old guys, really enjoyed it. Sad that it's coming to an end/ended.


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## HOLLiS (Mar 19, 2015)

pardus said:


> Sad that it's coming to an end/ended.




I really hate to inform you.   It is that you are getting old.   Pretty soon you be the Old Guy telling the stories.  :)


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## pardus (Mar 19, 2015)

HOLLiS said:


> I really hate to inform you.   It is that you are getting old.   Pretty soon you be the Old Guy telling the stories.  :)



Back in my day...


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## RackMaster (Mar 20, 2015)

There's a push to get the post-Korea guys/girls to join but there needs some major changes before they see any large numbers join.  My local one is open one or two evenings a week (for bingo and euchre) and once every couple months they have the local band play.


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## Gunz (Mar 20, 2015)

Some of my brothers are still dealing with issues from 40 years ago. I've been on anti-depressants for 20 years. I love military history but still cannot read books about combat in Vietnam. It hits too close to home, makes my guts knot up.

I think the dependency among younger veterans on social media is a bad thing. It eliminates facial expressions, voice inflections and gestures from communication, it relies upon abbreviations and buzz words, it reduces human contact to a symbolic code devoid of emotion or feeling...exactly the kind of interaction that a veteran in an emotional crisis doesn't need.


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## SpitfireV (Mar 21, 2015)

A lot of RSAs are merging with bowls clubs these days. Both are on the decline unfortunately. A noble sport, bowls.


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## digrar (Mar 21, 2015)

I've often thought about a commercial bowls club, barefoot bowles after work, good food, footy/cricket/fights on big screens, skimpies pulling beers, meat tray raffles. Got to be a winner.


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## HOLLiS (Mar 21, 2015)

digrar said:


> I've often thought about a commercial bowls club, barefoot bowles after work, good food, footy/cricket/fights on big screens, skimpies pulling beers, meat tray raffles. Got to be a winner.



Not sure what all of that is, but it sure does sound like a winner.  Count me in.  Good food and beer for the win.


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