# Clipdraw question.



## Swamp Honky (Apr 13, 2011)

My concealed carry weapon of choice is my Glock 30 SF. I was having night sights installed a while ago and the armorer made a comment about the Clipdraw that was installed.<http://www.clipdraw.com/>
Now I have heard arguments about functionality why or why not clipdraw is a good or bad idea. However, this guy was trying to inform me that if I ever had to use deadly force, the prosecution would use that to argue that I had 'modified' the weapon which could lead to legal trouble.


Was this guy blowing smoke up my ass or is there some truth to what he was saying?


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## policemedic (Apr 13, 2011)

Yes. 

More to come.


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## policemedic (Apr 14, 2011)

Swamp Honky said:


> Now I have heard arguments about functionality why or why not clipdraw is a good or bad idea.



It's not my cup of tea; I prefer a proper holster.  Your mileage may vary.



Swamp Honky said:


> However, this guy was trying to inform me that if I ever had to use deadly force, the prosecution would use that to argue that I had 'modified' the weapon which could lead to legal trouble.
> Was this guy blowing smoke up my ass or is there some truth to what he was saying?



OK...this is still a short answer, but maybe you'll find it helpful.

First things first- a good shoot is a good shoot.  Unfortunately, some decent people get criminally charged for righteous shootings either because of the political climate or because of what they do and say after the shooting.  It shouldn't happen, but...

Modifying your gun does open the door to that line of argument.  However, unless the modification you've made affects the gun's function, and more importantly, negatively affects its inherent safety then the argument is a red herring.

Do prosecutors use this tactic? I've heard of a few who were misguided enough (desperate and stupid enough?) to try it, but by and large, the greatest chance of the issue being raised will be in civil court and not criminal.  The field of civil litigation is rife with attorneys willing to file specious claims and 'experts' willing to support them for a fee.  In either case, a well-trained defense attorney is capable of handling those kinds of issues quite handily.  Please note that well-trained members of the bar and the _reputable_ experts they will consult are not cheap (they are, however, invaluable).

Sometimes, an argument can be made that having a particular modification made is proof that you are a conscientious and responsible person.  Things that may get you into trouble include...
- disabling safety devices
- lightening trigger pull unreasonably (My preference and advice is to leave the trigger stock-if it sucks, maybe you shouldn't have bought the gun in the first place-but there are good arguments on both sides of this issue.  The key is having a reasonable trigger weight for a defensive gun).
- having unqualified people work on your gun

This is clearly not an all-inclusive list, but you should see a pattern developing.....

Just because someone is a qualified gunsmith, works in a gun store, or stayed in a Holiday Inn Express doesn't mean they're qualified to pontificate about everything firearms related.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 14, 2011)

I have yet to read any case law regarding a “good shoot” and a individual being prosecuted in criminal or civil court due to a modification made to a firearm. That’s not to say that it could not happened, but you have to understand where the liability is and how it can apply. There are many people out there who make claims that any modifications from the factory configuration could get you in trouble with the prosecution in the event you use deadly force and are dragged into the court system. I disagree with these claims mainly because I have yet to see any proof through case law that supports such a claim.

Where you can be in trouble (liable) is with an unintentional discharge of a firearm that has been modified. Any time you modify a firearm outside or against the guidance of the manufacture, you remove the liability of the manufacture and you or the person who makes the modifications assumes that liability.

For an example: you carry your pistol with a modification of a clip draw, your firearm falls out of your pants and discharges, the discharged round strikes an individual in the process. Normally the manufacture would be looked at for liability due to failure of the firearm to be drop safe or a failure in the safety device. But b/c you made a modification to the firearm and even though it had nothing to do with the actual safety, you are now legally liable. You are liable b/c the manufacture is going to use the defense that they strictly state in the owner’s manual that any modification to the firearm may result in an on safe and dangers firearm and will void any and all warranty.

The same example can be used in a multitude of scenarios, but the common equation is that the firearm discharges when it is not supposed to do so.

Now outside of that format, you also have department/agency policies that apply to LEO’s. If the department policy states that you cannot alter or modify the firearm in anyway outside of the manufactures recommendations and you choose to do so, if or when you are involved in a shooting you will be automatically in violation of that policy. That will cause the investigators and prosecution to be more scrutinizing of the shooting and your action taken. The same could apply in some cases for civilians (violating the manufacture recommendations) however a good shoot is a good shoot. Modifications alone will not be the determination of a convictions or unfavorable judgment.

So what does all this mean? Do what your paycheck can afford…. If you are going to modify your firearm, pick ones that will not open you up to the possibility of an unintentional discharge (like the clip draw allowing a firearm to fall out of your pants). Get training in the proper use of the firearm and have all modifications done by a factory approved/certified armor. Don’t be afraid of making changes to your firearm, but be smart about it, learn the laws and ways to properly explain your action if that situation ever happens, and for Christ’s sake buy a holster!;)


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## 0699 (Apr 14, 2011)

I would never carry my Glock in anything besides a proper holster.  Every safety in a Glock is in the trigger.  The holster protects the trigger; using a Clipdraw is just too risky for me.  Afraid I'd put a round through my own hip...


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## Swamp Honky (Apr 14, 2011)

Thanks for the replies. I could not find any specific cases where this would be an actual problem either. I did read that some states require the trigger to be covered for concealed carry. I think the guy may have been trying to get me to buy a holster or just wanted to sound like he knew what he was talking about.

I like the clipdraw because it gives me the option to carry without a holster, while simultaneously working with my paddle holster without obstruction. Whenever I carry with the clip draw I never have a round chambered (this is the trade-off). If it fell out of my pants, it would have to somehow rack the slide, chamber a round and fire.

I need to find a place in NOVA that has an extensive amount of holsters. I would have no problem getting rid of the clipdraw if I found an IWB holster to fall in love with. I don't like the idea of ordering something like that off the internet without trying it on first.


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## 0699 (Apr 14, 2011)

Swamp Honky said:


> Thanks for the replies. I could not find any specific cases where this would be an actual problem either. I did read that some states require the trigger to be covered for concealed carry. I think the guy may have been trying to get me to buy a holster or just wanted to sound like he knew what he was talking about.
> 
> I like the clipdraw because it gives me the option to carry without a holster, while simultaneously working with my paddle holster without obstruction. Whenever I carry with the clip draw I never have a round chambered (this is the trade-off). If it fell out of my pants, it would have to somehow rack the slide, chamber a round and fire.
> 
> I need to find a place in NOVA that has an extensive amount of holsters. I would have no problem getting rid of the clipdraw if I found an IWB holster to fall in love with. I don't like the idea of ordering something like that off the internet without trying it on first.



Good luck.


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## policemedic (Apr 14, 2011)

Swamp Honky said:


> Whenever I carry with the clip draw I never have a round chambered (this is the trade-off). If it fell out of my pants, it would have to somehow rack the slide, chamber a round and fire.
> 
> I need to find a place in NOVA that has an extensive amount of holsters. I would have no problem getting rid of the clipdraw if I found an IWB holster to fall in love with. I don't like the idea of ordering something like that off the internet without trying it on first.



So if I understand you correctly, you carry with a round chambered when you use your paddle rig, and without one chambered with the clipdraw.  That practice presents certain commonality of training issues that are bound to surface under stress.

As for IWB carry, I use a Comp-Tac CTAC if I feel the need to carry that way.  Otherwise I use a belt holster from Raven Concealment.


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## Centermass (Apr 14, 2011)

policemedic said:


> So if I understand you correctly, you carry with a round chambered when you use your paddle rig, and without one chambered with the clipdraw. That practice presents certain commonality of training issues that are bound to surface under stress.



Exactly what I was thinking.

Ditch the clipdraw and go with a good IWB holster, or any holster you feel comfortable with.

As 699 also pointed out, with a SAP, no more worries about trigger integrity and any compromise of it.

And when you may need it the most, when seconds count, one less thing you have to struggle with, mentality, memory wise (When you could get a click instead of a bang) or physically, having to rack a round.


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## Swamp Honky (Apr 14, 2011)

Centermass said:


> Exactly what I was thinking.
> 
> Ditch the clipdraw and go with a good IWB holster, or any holster you feel comfortable with.
> 
> ...



Yeah makes sense. Definitely better to eliminate chance of confusion. I mean it sounds simple enough, but when shit hits the fan its better to not have to worry about which state of readiness my weapon my be in. I practice drawing both ways, but eliminating the clipdraw would only improve things.


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