# Does a West Point Cadet Outrank Every Army NCO?



## Marauder06 (Jun 27, 2016)

"Thought grenade" for the day:  do West Point cadets outrank Army NCOs?  Vote before you research or read through the comments.

You may vote for multiple responses, and you may change your response.


Click here for the answer, or click and drag over the concealed text below the following image:

 


The NCO referred me to AR 600-20, Army Command Policy, which makes it pretty clear that West Point cadets do, in fact, outrank Army NCOs.  This regulation shows that cadets rank after commissioned and warrant officers, but before NCOs.  Very interesting.  I learned something that day.  You’re right, Sergeant, a West Point cadet DOES outrank you.  Technically.


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## DA SWO (Jun 27, 2016)

Yep. All cadets outrank NCO's and are Junior to Warrant Officers.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 27, 2016)

I know the answer, good article.  Question, related to the OP.  Has anyone witnessed a situation where a very junior officer (like butter bar junior) tried to pull rank on a a senior Staff NCO?  What was the end result?


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## x SF med (Jun 27, 2016)

It sucks, and makes no sense, but yes, they do....


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 27, 2016)

They may outrank per regulations and we did show them proper customs and courtesies, they may get to hang around and play platoon leader, but at the end of the day, they can be told to shut up and color just like anyone else. Honestly, they stood behind formations, observed planning and stayed the hell out of the way, if we were going to the field, they went back up to the S shops and did whatever the hell they do there. Occasionally we would let them take charge of a detail doing silly shit, but for the most part some NCO/O was standing over their shoulder.

That all said, a good NCO will salute the flag pole of bullshit, a smart cadet (2LT for that matter) should never think of testing that special relationship.

I honestly never had any issue with a "dot" pretty sure they are told by the ROTC leadership eyes open and mouth shut when they do that portion of their "training".

Odd that someone not even in the Army can out rank someone who is.

ETA: just noticed USMA cadet. No experience with them, and I guess they are Army from day one being the Academy and all.


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## TLDR20 (Jun 27, 2016)

We had one in my SF company when I was there. He did all the cherry work, like cleaning the bathrooms, waxing floors filling up ice buckets. Then followed around the team leader and looked like a lost lamb.


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## AWP (Jun 27, 2016)

I had one shadow us for a few weeks when I was in Basic. He led PT and taught a class or two. Otherwise he hung out and we watched the NCO's grudgingly call him "sir."


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## Red Flag 1 (Jun 27, 2016)

YUP.


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## Gunz (Jun 27, 2016)

When I was a range NCO at Little Creek they used to bus Midshipmen in from USNA for M-16 Fam Fire. I was just a lowly E4 combat vet at the time, about 3 months back from rehab, and I would not have taken any shit from any future Ensign. And never had to. They respected us because we knew what the fuck we were doing and they didn't. Plus we had live ammo. _Sir_. 



Marauder06 said:


> "Thought grenade" for the day:  do West Point cadets outrank Army NCOs?  Vote before you research or read through the comments.
> 
> You may vote for multiple responses, and you may change your response.
> 
> ...





Bravo Zulu, sir, for sneaking your Mod vote in there.  You are indeed a crooked politician and worthy of running a corrupt administration. 


The NCO referred me to AR 600-20, Army Command Policy, which makes it pretty clear that West Point cadets do, in fact, outrank Army NCOs.  This regulation shows that cadets rank after commissioned and warrant officers, but before NCOs.  Very interesting.  I learned something that day.  You’re right, Sergeant, a West Point cadet DOES outrank you.  Technica


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## DocIllinois (Jun 27, 2016)

We had three assigned to "assist" the Drills during BRM week at Basic.

All of the Cadets went the tough guy (?) route and stayed out on the range all day but didn't hydrate enough.  In the dead of summer.  In the southeast.  On a sandy range with little shade.

Two of them went down by early afternoon.  One had to be IV rehydrated and returned the next day, while the other took a ride in the square green truck to the nearest MEDDAC facility and was Dx with heat stroke, never to be seen again.   

This was the end of any hope that I'd be impressed by Pointers.  I cannot explain the logic behind any commissioning program puke outranking an actual service member.


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## Etype (Jun 27, 2016)

I saw them all the time in the 82nd. We treated them like offocers, and they were respectful in return.

If they weren't, the Lieutenants would've brutalized them.


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## RustyShackleford (Jun 29, 2016)

I recall a cadet attached to our platoon once upon a time.  When the PL introduced him, the cadet stood in front of us in the platoon AO and said: "Now I am not here to teach you guys..."  The PL saved him from any further embarrassment by interrupting him.


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## walra107 (Jun 29, 2016)

I learned this one day at Airborne...Needless to say in my ever professional, non-belligerent self I told that 19 year old cadet to politely go fuck thyself, about faced and walked away without waiting for a response. From then on that particular individual never brought up rank or seniority again. (Looking back it was a shitty thing for me to do, but it got the point across).


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## Devildoc (Jun 29, 2016)

It's my understanding the rank structure is a hold-over from the good old days when cadets and midshipmen had to stop halfway through college and go to war, and hold "brevit" ranks.  Or something like that.  Some obscure trivia that I read many years ago.



Ooh-Rah said:


> I know the answer, good article.  Question, related to the OP.  Has anyone witnessed a situation where a very junior officer (like butter bar junior) tried to pull rank on a a senior Staff NCO?  What was the end result?



The only time I recall seeing something like that was in Pensacola, at DCO school.  We had a former-CPO-turned-WO, hell of a nice guy.  Really.  A brand new O1, just finished OCS and awaiting his slot at flight school and on admin duty, said something cross to him.  The WO just went medieval, unleashed a ton of hell.  Then the OCS staff did the same thing.  He apologized, but it was ugly for a while.


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## AmphibSeabee (Jul 30, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I know the answer, good article.  Question, related to the OP.  Has anyone witnessed a situation where a very junior officer (like butter bar junior) tried to pull rank on a a senior Staff NCO?  What was the end result?


When I was in Basic at Great Lakes, I would attend the Dive Motivator sessions in the early morning (wasn't trying to go to BUD/s, just wanted some extra strength conditioning.) Anyways one morning a SEAL CPO showed up a few mins late and walked up to some (non SEAL) Lt. who I am guessing was technically in charge, and said something alone the lines of  "Hey sorry I am late traffic was really bad." The Chief turned to walk away and the Lt. Said basically "Get back here Chief , I am not done speaking to you yet" in a super condescending manner. Realize he was not only saying this, but saying it infront of recruits, the look the Chief gave that Lt. was cold as ice, and after walking back to the junior officer and speaking a few very direct words that I can't remember the Lt basically cowered down and shut his mouth. I didn't know much about the Navy yet but I knew a lower non SEAL officer speaking like that to a CPO SEAL was incredibly stupid and disrespectful. Anyways just an old story I remember.


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## Teufel (Jul 30, 2016)

Once upon a time I was a junior butter bar myself.  I remember working alongside a very senior, extremely intense and highly decorated company Gunnery Sergeant in the infantry. Needless to say I looked up to this seasoned SNCO and respected him in a way that transcended rank and the chain of command.  This happened during the opening volleys of the GWOT and this Marine was a veteran of Desert Storm, Bosnia, Somalia, Afghanistan and had just returned from the invasion of Iraq.  What a Marine!  I remember that he used to salute me from what seemed to be across the parade deck.  Over the horizon saluting for a 2nd Lt! One day I asked him, "Gunny, why do you salute me from so far away?  You really seem to go out of your way to show me a great deal of respect for someone who has done so little in the Corps."  He told me, "Sir, I don't do it for you.  I do it because it's my job and I'm a consummate professional.  All the Marines in our company are watching how I interact with you and I would do THEM a disservice if I disrespected you by not performing our fundamental customs and courtesies. I have my job and you have your job and we both need to do our jobs to the best of our abilities for the Marine Corps to be successful."  I have held on to that lesson for my entire career.  It has shaped me in ways I'm sure that GySgt would never have imagined. Bottom line the system exists for a reason.  There are ways to counsel a wayward young officer without challenging the system that has kept our country free since 1776.  That is my job as a commander.  I have taught many young officers some good, perhaps painful, leadership lessons based on some input from some SNCO mentors of mine.  None of those SNCOs challenged these officers in the moment of their poor judgment.


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## x SF med (Jul 31, 2016)

Always show Jr officers and cadets the proper military courtesy and respect, but use your NCO powers for good  by training those Jr O's and kadidiots as best as you can.


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## Devildoc (Aug 1, 2016)

AmphibSeabee said:


> When I was in Basic at Great Lakes, I would attend the Dive Motivator sessions in the early morning (wasn't trying to go to BUD/s, just wanted some extra strength conditioning.) Anyways one morning a SEAL CPO showed up a few mins late and walked up to some (non SEAL) Lt. who I am guessing was technically in charge, and said something alone the lines of  "Hey sorry I am late traffic was really bad." The Chief turned to walk away and the Lt. Said basically "Get back here Chief , I am not done speaking to you yet" in a super condescending manner. Realize he was not only saying this, but saying it infront of recruits, the look the Chief gave that Lt. was cold as ice, and after walking back to the junior officer and speaking a few very direct words that I can't remember the Lt basically cowered down and shut his mouth. I didn't know much about the Navy yet but I knew a lower non SEAL officer speaking like that to a CPO SEAL was incredibly stupid and disrespectful. Anyways just an old story I remember.



This was a lose-lose for both of them.  The officer should not have spoken to the Chief that way (especially in the open), and the Chief should have taken the discussion private.  The fact that one was a SEAL is irrelevant.  The inter-rank respect and courtesies are there regardless of the job title.


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## Gunz (Aug 1, 2016)

The only butterbars I encountered were in my rifle company at 6th Marines post Vietnam. I remember 2nd Lt Rodrigues keeping me awake one night during a FX while he explained his philosophy of shined shoes and how anything was possible, any dream attainable, in military and civilian life, as long as you kept your shoes shined to a high gloss. :whatever::-" He went on and on and on.:wall: But I listened respectfully because that's what NCOs are supposed to do...and tried to give him the benefit of the doubt that what he was telling me was some kind parable that actually _meant _something...


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## AWP (Aug 1, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> This was a lose-lose for both of them.  The officer should not have spoken to the Chief that way (especially in the open), and the Chief should have taken the discussion private.  The fact that one was a SEAL is irrelevant.  The inter-rank respect and courtesies are there regardless of the job title.



Our Ops SGM was a MACV-SOG (CCS) vet. He was very laid back, but his customs and courtesies were almost textbook. He was a pro in every sense of the word.


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## Kraut783 (Aug 1, 2016)

Wonder how he would have dealt with a cadet...



probably very professionally....unless the cadet got stupid...then that would have been fun to watch


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## digrar (Aug 1, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> Wonder how he would have dealt with a cadet...


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## AWP (Aug 1, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> Wonder how he would have dealt with a cadet...



However he wants.


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