# LAPD Has a VI Team?



## Brill (Sep 20, 2015)

Our nation of laws has devolved to a police supervisor with "authority" to hand out death sentences. Guess they were out of spike strips or other ways to stop a vehicle.

US driver shot from police helicopter
US driver shot from police helicopter - BBC News

If the marksman can hit the driver, why not the engine block, tires, or whatever?


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## TLDR20 (Sep 20, 2015)

The police have a job, to protect. When idiots start driving the wrong way down the freeway it is time to stop them, before they kill a family, or any unsuspecting motorist. A vehicle is a 1 ton weapon.


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 20, 2015)

I read the story, maybe I missed it, but it is there confirmation that the police officer was aiming for the body?

 And even if he was, telling him to aim for the engine block or the tires seems analogous to telling a police officer that he should aim for a leg or an arm versus a center mass body shot.


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## Ranger Psych (Sep 20, 2015)

lindy said:


> Our nation of laws has devolved to a police supervisor with "authority" to hand out death sentences. Guess they were out of spike strips or other ways to stop a vehicle.
> 
> US driver shot from police helicopter
> US driver shot from police helicopter - BBC News
> ...



Why block shot when the guy's already endangered a significant amount of the population and is fleeing from the police? You can't spike strip highways in cali, it just won't work. Too much traffic to be able to go GEE WE CAN LEAVE THIS OPEN and not have 7000 people try to drive over them before your target vehicle, and as you're waving them off to get the fuck out of the way now you have a 10 car MVA because that truck that was running just plowed into car 1 which then domino'ed all over the fucking place.

easiest solution? Civic fucking instruction in high school so kids learn laws and rights and how to be responsible members of society.. and a passing grade requirement of the class to get the fuck out of high school, too.


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## Brill (Sep 20, 2015)

Can anyone cite a case where attempted manslaughter ended up with the defendant sentenced to death?


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## Gunz (Sep 20, 2015)

The concept of televised high-speed pursuits was born and perfected in LA to the point where some people do it just to get their 15 minutes of fame. 

It's one thing to lose loved ones in a car _accident. _It's a different story when they die because some asshole decided to go apeshit on the interstate.

More drivers in LA need to be shot from helicopters.


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## Brill (Sep 20, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> The police have a job to protect. When idiots start driving the wrong way down the freeway it is time to stop them, before they kill a family, or any unsuspecting motorist. A vehicle is a 1 ton weapon.



100% agree and openly wonder when/how the decision is made to transition from apprehension to killing, which is a needed "tool" in the toolbox.  Going WAY out there, which I don't advocate at all, I suppose an argument could be made that DUI driver could suffer the same fate?


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## AWP (Sep 20, 2015)

An SUV is a weapon. Point a weapon at a person and you'll be shot. I have reservations about a number of police shootings but given the facts as presented now I have no problem with this one.

I think the big issue is the LAPD's history. Without that this wouldn't be a point of discussion.


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## Florida173 (Sep 20, 2015)

> The driverless SUV crashed head-on into a Dodge Durango injuring three people, one of whom remains in hospital, police added.


I'm sure the decision to shoot from a helicopter was not taken lightly, but I can't imagine they would have more faith in a dead driver, or driverless, SUV driving down the wrong way.


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## Brill (Sep 20, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> An SUV is a weapon. Point a weapon at a person and you'll be shot. I have reservations about a number of police shootings but given the facts as presented now I have no problem with this one.
> 
> I think the big issue is the LAPD's history. Without that this wouldn't be a point of discussion.



Disregard for public safety isn't a capital offense.  That's my position.



> From a legal perspective, Obayashi said, “if the officer reasonably perceives an immediate threat to the public, that justifies reasonable force, including deadly force.”
> 
> The use of the helicopter technique is so rare, however, *that there is no published legal decision testing officers’ ability to use the specific tactic*, noted Obayashi, a former public defender who now advises law enforcement agencies on use-of-force issues.



Police shooting from helicopters -- rare but not unheard of


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## Marine0311 (Sep 20, 2015)

Good shot by the police. One less reckless person out there on the road posing a danager.


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## DA SWO (Sep 20, 2015)

We had a rash of wrong-way vehicle accidents in San Antonio, 90% plus are drunks or people running from the cops.
I don't have a problem, the driver was willing to kill in his desire to get away; drivers need to understand that a willingness to kill also means a willingness to die.


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## Muppet (Sep 20, 2015)

Fuck him. Play stupid games, win stupid prizes. I am tired of savages acting the fool and good folks dying. 

M.


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## Ranger Psych (Sep 20, 2015)

lindy said:


> Can anyone cite a case where attempted manslaughter ended up with the defendant sentenced to death?



How many people have to be lucky they're alive before you shoot the person risking their life?

Oh, and as for your attempted manslaughter death sentence?


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## SpitfireV (Sep 20, 2015)

I'm sure if it was a legal use of force it will all come out in the wash.


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## medicchick (Sep 20, 2015)

lindy said:


> Can anyone cite a case where attempted manslaughter ended up with the defendant sentenced to death?


Look up officer involved shootings that ended in death, plenty involved the deceased endangering other lives. It's not like this is a rare thing, you endanger peoples lives and you will be stopped by any means necessary.  Not sure why you are so shocked, this was the street as it was happening not in a courtroom.


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## Ranger Psych (Sep 20, 2015)

I'm just surprised that someone's thinking there's no limit to how many felonies someone needs to commit before "stop them NOW" comes into primacy.


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## policemedic (Sep 21, 2015)

lindy said:


> Can anyone cite a case where attempted manslaughter ended up with the defendant sentenced to death?



If you mean attempted murder, yes.


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## Gunz (Sep 21, 2015)

lindy said:


> Disregard for public safety isn't a capital offense.  That's my position.


 
"Disregard for public safety" is understating it. It's an out-of-control freakin maniac endangering the lives of innocent people. No different, IMO, from somebody waving a gun around in a crowd and popping off rounds indiscriminately.


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## x SF med (Sep 21, 2015)

lindy said:


> Disregard for public safety isn't a capital offense. That's my position.



I beg to differ using the reasonable man argument. 

A reasonable man would argue that disregard for public safety by the brandishing or use of a deadly weapon, is, in all logical circumstance, actually a case of premeditated murder or attempted murder. The violator knows that a vehicle is a weapon, and is using it in the manner of a weapon, therefore, premeditation is inherent in any case brought against him;  and, per that argument, the protectors of public safety then have the option, or even the obligation to use whatever force necessary to deter, detain or stop the instigator from causing any, or any further, danger or harm to the public.

But, since this argument will be deemed fallacious by you, and I am not a vindictive individual - I will still hope that you, your family or friends are never on the receiving end of a vehicle driven by another who feels that disregard for the public safety isn't a capital offense, and needs a peace officer to make the shot to save their lives at the cost of the person who is threatening them driving the wrong way down a freeway, nor speeding into the stands at a middle or high school football game/rally/memorial service or other gathering, or just going about peaceable and quiet enjoyment of life.


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## Brill (Sep 21, 2015)

x SF med said:


> I beg to differ using the reasonable man argument.
> 
> A reasonable man would argue that disregard for public safety by the brandishing or use of a deadly weapon, is, in all logical circumstance, actually a case of premeditated murder or attempted murder. The violator knows that a vehicle is a weapon, and is using it in the manner of a weapon, therefore, premeditation is inherent in any case brought against him;  and, per that argument, the protectors of public safety then have the option, or even the obligation to use whatever force necessary to deter, detain or stop the instigator from causing any, or any further, danger or harm to the public.



Very good and extremely valid point!


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## Brill (Sep 21, 2015)

policemedic said:


> If you mean attempted murder, yes.



Seriously?

I found this educational which ties capital crimes typically associated with the death of another individual.  But there are some exceptions:

Burglary carries a death penalty in Alabama, *Delaware*, Kentucky and North Carolina.


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## policemedic (Sep 21, 2015)

lindy said:


> Seriously?
> 
> I found this educational which ties capital crimes typically associated with the death of another individual.  But there are some exceptions:
> 
> Burglary carries a death penalty in Alabama, *Delaware*, Kentucky and North Carolina.



Seriously. Tagged for later.


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## Frank S. (Sep 21, 2015)

Not that this should matter perhaps but the shooter is with San Bernardino Sheriff, no LAPD.


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## RetPara (Sep 22, 2015)

Frank S. said:


> Not that this should matter perhaps but the shooter is with San Bernardino Sheriff, no LAPD.


It does matter.  The difference in training and marksmanship skills could be important.  Was not SBSD involved in a firefight/manhunt with a person in the last few years in rough terrain which would need the same capability.

What came to mind when reading the OP was Rambo taking the shooter out with a thrown rock....    

Would it be over the top to use AH-6's/armed Hughes 500's for this in LA?  

Seriously....   how many people here HAVE NOT day dreamed about a remotely controlled M240 mounted on the roof of their POV?


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## BuckysBadger24 (Sep 25, 2015)

I can't help but wonder if this is much of a discussion if the method used doesn't border on the fantastic.  Especially to average Joe's like myself.  While they may train for such incidents and keep this option in the toolbox thinking little of it, I certainly would have never thought I'd read an article about an Officer stopping a vehicle with well aimed shots from a helicopter.  With all of the media argument lately about our Law Enforcement community becoming "militarized", I can see where this may stir up the controversy.  

If instead they managed to get a cruiser along side the suspect's vehicle and an Officer takes the guy out with his sidearm, is this international news worthy?  Does time of day impact this decision, considering a possible increase in both vehicular and pedestrian traffic depending on the hour?  Wrong way drivers seem to be a growing problem in most major cities lately, albeit with the driver tending to be drunk.  Will it come out he was seriously inebriated himself and does that somehow affect the hindsight on this decision?

I'm of the opinion that the jackass probably put more lives at risk in the time he went on this little rampage than he probably could have ever done with a firearm.  If this guy is barreling toward me on the interstate at high speed I, as well as most (whether they would admit it or not), would expect the Police to stop the threat using any available measure before he slammed into us.  Who knows how many lives may have been saved by this action.  How many people have been killed across the country by asshats going the wrong way on the interstate just this year I wonder?  Inebriated and rock fuck stupid, or on purpose while evading Police and rock fuck stupid, you don't have to be doing anything special to be a casualty of this, you just have to be there.


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## Etype (Sep 25, 2015)

lindy said:


> Can anyone cite a case where attempted manslaughter ended up with the defendant sentenced to death?


There are plenty of things that are not capital offenses that could result in police, or anyone for that matter, shooting you justifiably.


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## DA SWO (Sep 25, 2015)

Had a car thief charged with murder

Woman killed in NW Side pileup identified; driver charged with murder

I quote:
_A detective said he saw Orozco take the truck and followed him in an unmarked car. Police said Orozco exited I-10, slammed into at least five cars on the eastbound lanes of the frontage road at Huebner Road before rolling the truck_

He was willing to kill in order to escape, and hopefully spends the rest of his life in prison.


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## policemedic (Sep 25, 2015)

Etype said:


> There are plenty of things that are not capital offenses that could result in police, or anyone for that matter, shooting you justifiably.



This is exactly the argument I was going to make.  Hypothetically, if a bad guy attacks a cop with a knife and he shoots them--but doesn't kill them--they'll hit the books for aggravated assault, and likely attempted murder depending on the jurisdiction and prosecutor.  The cop will get another ribbon for his uniform.  If he does kill the bad guy, that is the functional equivalent of a death sentence from a judge.  It's just more efficient and devoid of the possibility of appeal.

I know plenty of officers, service members, and civilians who have taken life in situations where if the bad guy/terrorist had survived the charges would have been attempted this-or-that (plus other non-inchoate crimes).  That doesn't make it a bad shoot.

Hell, I can remember a case--vividly--where two young constables in South Philadelphia had a lad point a sawed off shotgun at their heads.  The bad guy ended up with three holes and minus a thumb, but was only convicted of simple assault.  Not aggravated assault, not attempted murder.  The person sitting on the bench is the ultimate variable.....

And let's not forget states like Texas where it's legal to use deadly force to defend property.


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## Gunz (Sep 25, 2015)

What're we workin on, now? 8-billion people on this rock? 10-billion in the next 20 years? We're not gonna miss this guy.


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## Ranger Psych (Sep 25, 2015)

RetPara said:


> It does matter.  The difference in training and marksmanship skills could be important.  Was not SBSD involved in a firefight/manhunt with a person in the last few years in rough terrain which would need the same capability.
> 
> What came to mind when reading the OP was Rambo taking the shooter out with a thrown rock....
> 
> ...



Every day I go on I80, 395, 50, etc.... I want a stryker. Buttoned up, decent stereo replacing a few (not all) ammo racks and such, and a RWS modified for a GAU19.  Cut me off now.


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## Brill (Sep 26, 2015)

@Etype and @policemedic , I fully agree with your POV in those circumstances because an individual(s) was clearly threatened.

In this VI hit, the guy was fleeing a home invasion and was definitely a threat (like ALL car chases), however I openly wonder when his 5th Amendment rights were violated.  Are we conceding that drunk drivers or drivers who refuse to stop for police are also such a dire threat to public safety that requires the same ROE?

Do his survivors have a civil rights case? If so, what are the limits?  This one (focuses on 4th Amendment protections) ended up with police pitting the driver, who was severely injured...but what about death?

(I'm not trolling but very interested in the debate.)


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## Florida173 (Sep 26, 2015)

Kind of just piggy backing on what @lindy said.
Here in Florida we have a problem with people driving on the wrong side and Orlando gets its share of foreign families driving on the wrong side of the highway that cause fatal accidents. Everyone of them just as dangerous as this event and potential to kill. Wrong-way crashes apparently have killed 164 people from 2003 to 2012, and with each fatal wrong-way crash on toll roads managed by the Central Florida Expressway Authority cost an average of $6.6 million, it makes it an expensive accident.

FHP: Wrong-way driver dies hours after three crashes on I-4
FHP: Woman killed, three injured in wrong-way crash on SR 417
Mother, son die in wrong-way crash in Sanford


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## AWP (Sep 26, 2015)

lindy said:


> In this VI hit, the guy was fleeing a home invasion and was definitely a threat (like ALL car chases), however I openly wonder when his 5th Amendment rights were violated.  Are we conceding that drunk drivers or drivers who refuse to stop for police are also such a dire threat to public safety that requires the same ROE?



You make a good point. I look at it like this: if you're a threat to someone's life then yours if forfeit. Now...how do you define a threat where a vehicle is concerned? If you're holding a weapon and moving towards a person you can be shot. A vehicle is just as deadly, but we don't engage those guys? Compounding the problem is our stance on DUI. We give people multiple opportunities to "fix the glitch" and many don't, yet we can clearly show that drunks kill about 10,000 people each year in the US.

If we're going to light up people driving on the wrong side of the road or using their vehicle in a threatening manner (and I'm fine with that) then we need to be consistent. You get a pass for a DUI but other infractions can lead to a murder-death-kill? Nope.

Personally, I view this like the immigration debate: until we enforce the laws "as is" any further debate is nonsense. If we're going to schwack vehicles then we need a standard AND we need to stop being hypocrites.

What will happens is if cops start shooting a vehicular threat there will be a hue and cry over police violence and then the pendulum will swing the other way and people will cry "why don't they do something" after we've taken (arguably) one of the best deterrents.

Our society's comprised of idiots and pussies and one day that bill will come due.


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