# Russian election Interference thread



## Poccington (Apr 20, 2018)

- Mod Edit -

Russian interference specific thread created and merged by member request - 

- Rah -



Topkick said:


> So no Russian collusion, nothing about Stormy Daniels to get Trump fired, so now this. Trump didn't need a conspiracy to win. Next.



The Russia issue is still an ongoing investigation and the Stormy Daniels carry on is awaiting a court date.


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## Devildoc (Apr 20, 2018)

Poccington said:


> The Russia issue is still an ongoing investigation and the Stormy Daniels carry on is awaiting a court date.



Yes, but.....and I fully acknowledge anything can happen at anytime....

Even Mueller's team leaked they are close to wrapping up, Rosenstein said Trump isn't a target in the Cohen case, and Daniels isn't going to bring him down.


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## Poccington (Apr 20, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Yes, but.....and I fully acknowledge anything can happen at anytime....
> 
> Even Mueller's team leaked they are close to wrapping up, Rosenstein said Trump isn't a target in the Cohen case, and Daniels isn't going to bring him down.



Is the talk of wrapping things up a bit like Ty Cobb saying it'd be wrapped up before Christmas? Even looking at the indictments of the Russians and all the stuff about the Internet Research Agency, it looks like a pretty wide ranging investigation so any talk of wrapping things up is fairly optimistic IMO.

Isn't all the "target" talk just legal speak? Much like the fact that Trump is the subject of an investigation into obstruction of justice, rather than a target? Someone becomes a target once prosecutors have decided to charge cunts? 

The Cohen thing could seemingly get hairy if it grows legs. Even Trump associates are highlighting the danger of Cohen flipping on Trump, on the basis that Cohen has dirt on Trump that could land him in hot water. Although I think it's a bit bizarre for them to just take it as a given that Trump has done something illegal with Cohen during his career.

I agree that Trump certainly won't get the boot over banging Stormy Daniels based on the info that is in the public domain.


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## Topkick (Apr 20, 2018)

This should be interesting.

Trump hires Giuliani, two other attorneys amid mounting legal turmoil over Russia


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## Blizzard (Apr 27, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Do you know how tedious it is to delete a 4 paragraph, super well thought out, tongue in cheek snarky reply on an iPhone? Pretty hard (that’s what she said).
> 
> Anyway- to @Blizzard notably- this is a good example of our earlier conversation about ‘what is news’?
> 
> ...


@amlove21 , in many respects, you and I are on the same page.  Character is important and was always a question, especially leading up to the election.  I'm pretty certain it was a topic of numerous discussions here.  So, it's not news.  The questions have been out there since day one.  It's a solid reason why I didn't vote for him.  However, for others, it wasn't either persuasive enough or priority enough to keep them from voting him to office; voters passed judgment the best way possible.  So, regardless as to how we feel about it, it's out there, a decision was made, it's not news, time to move forward....or we can continue to pummel dead horses.

When looking at things that are news worthy, how about Bill Cosby?  Yep, news worthy.  How about news on the Korean Peninsula?  Absolutely news.

Even if North Korea has said many things in the past, they've never said the things they're saying now.  Definitely newsworthy, especially when a year ago the media and every leftist on the planet had us imminently locked into war with North Korea.  This is a huge story, no matter how we look at it.  Tell me were this rates on the page headlines here (obviously time sensitive based on when you're able to view this thread):
ABC News
CNN - Breaking News, Latest News and Videos
NBC News - Breaking News & Top Stories - Latest World, US & Local News
MSNBC — Breaking News, Top Stories, & Show Clips

Do you see an issue there?

(the Korean announcement is not a main headline on any of the sites listed; however, "Trump's Russian connection" story is front and center on several of them)


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## Salt USMC (Apr 30, 2018)

Whoa.  NYT has (somehow) obtained the list of questions that special counsel Mueller wants to ask POTUS. The list tops 48 questions
Mueller Has Dozens of Inquiries for Trump in Broad Quest on Russia Ties and Obstruction

And the questions themselves: What Mueller Wants to Ask Trump About Obstruction, and What It Means

This seems to be the one that reporters are really digging into:


> *• What knowledge did you have of any outreach by your campaign, including by Paul Manafort, to Russia about potential assistance to the campaign?*
> This is one of the most intriguing questions on the list. It is not clear whether Mr. Mueller knows something new, but there is no publicly available information linking Mr. Manafort, the former campaign chairman, to such outreach. So his inclusion here is significant. Mr. Manafort’s longtime colleague, Rick Gates, is cooperating with Mr. Mueller.


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## ThunderHorse (May 1, 2018)

Salt USMC said:


> Whoa.  NYT has (somehow) obtained the list of questions that special counsel Mueller wants to ask POTUS. The list tops 48 questions
> Mueller Has Dozens of Inquiries for Trump in Broad Quest on Russia Ties and Obstruction
> 
> And the questions themselves: What Mueller Wants to Ask Trump About Obstruction, and What It Means
> ...



Hate because that investigation has leaked like a sieve.  He should just hang it up.  His team is obviously full shit bags.

I suspect that a lot of Republican Congress Critters will make a lot of speeches tomorrow.  Or the list is fake which would make this clown show ever more funny.


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## Devildoc (May 1, 2018)

First of all, a good friend of mine who used to be the assistant district attorney in my area, once told me never ask a question that you don't already know the answer to. Mueller already knows the answers to these, I think he is trying to get Trump to go on record. At this point it is not about truth, it is about playing gotcha.

Second of all, this was never a legal issue until about 7 years ago when they passed campaign finance reform law. So back when Senator Kennedy actively courted the Soviets to conspire against Reagan, that was actually legal.

Third of all, collusion is nowhere in the general statutes. If they get him anywhere it will be on a finance issue with Russia, whether Russia paid anything to influence the election. I think if that had happened, we'd already know a little something about it.

I'll be curious to see where this goes, but believe this will probably not leave anywhere big.


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## 757 (May 1, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> First of all, a good friend of mine who used to be the assistant district attorney in my area, once told me never ask a question that you don't already know the answer to. Mueller already knows the answers to these, I think he is trying to get Trump to go on record. At this point it is not about truth, it is about playing gotcha.








^I've posted this video before, but its worth a second post (spoiler: part 2 is a police officer saying the same thing.)

I cannot emphasize how accurate Devildoc's statement is. In fact, out of all the people indicted by Muller, thus far, (excluding Russian nationals and companies) only Richard Pinedo has not been charged with, at least, "making false statements to the FBI."

Last week I was a witness in a mock trial for a few 3L friends of mine. We had two practice sessions prior to the mock, and I knew the details of the case very well. During cross examination, I was asked how much we ("we" includes the dirty prostitute that made an attempt on my characters life) received for the sale of the house. The correct answer was 18 Mil, i.e. the grand total. I answered 14.47 Mil, the amount we both received after closing costs. I answered based upon the amount of money we pocketed, honest mistake right? Wrong! I had just committed perjury, as so eloquently pointed out by the proctor. Trust me, one of the most humbling experiences is being forced to read your sworn testimony after just answering incorrectly. Also remember, this was only a mock trial, imagine being in front of trained professionals.


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## Salt USMC (May 9, 2018)

Michael Cohen is incredibly screwed: Firm Tied to Russian Oligarch Made Payments to Michael Cohen

-Took $200k from AT&T as the company was being scrutinized for an antitrust suit
-Was paid over $1 million by a sanctioned Russian oligarch

Serious question: why do Russians keep showing up in the Trump orbit?


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## ThunderHorse (May 9, 2018)

Salt USMC said:


> Michael Cohen is incredibly screwed: Firm Tied to Russian Oligarch Made Payments to Michael Cohen
> 
> -Took $200k from AT&T as the company was being scrutinized for an antitrust suit
> -Was paid over $1 million by a sanctioned Russian oligarch
> ...


Because when you go on a witch hunt you find witches?  Seriously.


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## Box (May 9, 2018)

Trump has been in and out of Russia for decades as a business man - if it had suddenly become IMPOSSIBLE to find a Russian person in his past, I would be a lot more surprised.

its like being surprised that someone who lived in North Carolina for 10 years has a history of drinking Cheerwine.


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## amlove21 (May 9, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Because when you go on a witch hunt you find witches?  Seriously.


This is pretty dead on.

The only problem is, when the whole case is "Russia actively helped you get elected" and everywhere you turn are connections to powerful Russians, it's no longer a witch hunt. Witches don't exist; President Trump's historical and possibly current ties to the Russian Oligarchy do exist.


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## Centermass (May 9, 2018)

Salt USMC said:


> Michael Cohen is incredibly screwed: Firm Tied to Russian Oligarch Made Payments to Michael Cohen
> 
> -Took $200k from AT&T as the company was being scrutinized for an antitrust suit
> -Was paid over $1 million by a sanctioned Russian oligarch
> ...




Ummm,

You were saying?

*Avenatti Accuses The Wrong Michael Cohens Of Making ‘Fraudulent’ Payments*

Link



> It remains a mystery how the financial records of a completely separate Michael Cohen would have ended up in the tranche of documents provided to Avenatti.
> 
> Other transfers tied to Michael Cohen, the Trump lawyer, actually did occur. Several companies, including AT&T, Novartis and Columbus Nova, a firm linked to Russian oligarch Viktor Vekselberg, acknowledged paying Cohen’s company, Essential Consultants.


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## amlove21 (May 9, 2018)

Centermass said:


> Ummm,
> 
> You were saying?


From the article-


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## Centermass (May 9, 2018)

Umm,

I edited the article and put that in there. 

My LETTERS are not as big as yours.......


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## amlove21 (May 9, 2018)

Centermass said:


> Umm,
> 
> I edited the article and put that in there.
> 
> My LETTERS are not as big as yours.......


I knew it!!

Was this the first example of double fake news?!? Quite possibly.  Lol


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## Salt USMC (May 9, 2018)

Centermass said:


> Ummm,
> 
> You were saying?
> 
> ...


According to your article, all of the payments I listed were attributed to the correct Michael Cohen, i.e. Trump's lawyer.


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## ThunderHorse (May 14, 2018)

So this gets really really weird Mueller may have a conflict — and it leads directly to a Russian oligarch


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## Salt USMC (May 16, 2018)

Whether or not the special counsel would recommend indictment was never really an issue, because that matter is ultimately left up to Congress to decide.  More specifically, the Senate if the House approves articles of impeachment.

Currently, the rumor is that the special counsel’s office could release two reports - one for the obstruction of justice investigation, and one for Russian involvement in the election, with the former possibly coming as early as June.  So even if the next six or however many years are full of “fake news”, we could have some real-ass news hitting as early as next month.


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## Devildoc (May 17, 2018)

Salt USMC said:


> Whether or not the special counsel would recommend indictment was never really an issue, because that matter is ultimately left up to Congress to decide.  More specifically, the Senate if the House approves articles of impeachment.
> 
> Currently, the rumor is that the special counsel’s office could release two reports - one for the obstruction of justice investigation, and one for Russian involvement in the election, with the former possibly coming as early as June.  _*So even if the next six or however many years are full of “fake news”, we could have some real-ass news hitting as early as next month*_.



....and it still won't get anywhere.  The whole thing is a gordion knot of Biblical proportions that he could be 100% guilty or 100% innocent and the interested parties are just going to dig their heels in deeper.  I think Mueller, et al., need to get something out soon and begin to vigorously defend because it seems as if some of the allegations have been unraveling.


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## Devildoc (May 17, 2018)

Federal judge amused by Mueller, issues "C'mon, man!" with regard to 'scope' memo:

Federal judge who ripped Mueller team obtains 'scope memo' detailing Russia probe


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## Box (May 21, 2018)

We have long since passed the point of searching for evidence that shows a conspiracy with the Russian government to ensure a Trump victory. What we have found is evidence of the DNC trolling the globe for help, a book from Donna Brazil that made legal accusations, an admission from the head of the FBI that information was intentionally leaked with the intent of causing the appointment of a special counsel, and admission that information known to be ill gained and untrue was used to backdoor the system, and now we have seen that Mueller has as many or more connection with "foreign oligarchs" than the "bad" people he is investigating.

We have been playing "Six Degrees to Kevin Bacon" with the crap for over a year and it is starting to give me the shits.  
Put somebody in jail already - water board a campaign aide - I don't care just fucking show something other than six-degrees-to-collusion
...all the spEcial c0unsel has proven is that anyone can be connected to a foreign oligarch if you have an unlimited budget and don't care how obscure or meaningless the connection

The DNC and supporters are certain campaign corruption exists because they had a hand in it.  They know things were fixed because they still have the receipts.  This has nothing to do with justice - never did - never will.

so - any updates on the weather report?  
...is the left still predicting 'Stormy'


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## Gunz (May 21, 2018)

Box said:


> We have long since passed the point of searching for evidence that shows a conspiracy with the Russian government to ensure a Trump victory. What we have found is evidence of the DNC trolling the globe for help, a book from Donna Brazil that made legal accusations, an admission from the head of the FBI that information was intentionally leaked with the intent of causing the appointment of a special counsel, and admission that information known to be ill gained and untrue was used to backdoor the system, and now we have seen that Mueller has as many or more connection with "foreign oligarchs" than the "bad" people he is investigating.
> 
> We have been playing "Six Degrees to Kevin Bacon" with the crap for over a year and it is starting to give me the shits.
> Put somebody in jail already - water board a campaign aide - I don't care just fucking show something other than six-degrees-to-collusion
> ...




Millions of hysterical liberals searching desperately for a crime that doesn't exist throwing a new spurious and empty allegation around every goddam day until the next presidential election. This is why I watch baseball and hockey. Yes, you're right. Fuck this. Arrest somebody or STFU.


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## Topkick (May 21, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Millions of hysterical liberals searching desperately for a crime that doesn't exist throwing a new spurious and empty allegation around every goddam day until the next presidential election. This is why I watch baseball and hockey. Yes, you're right. Fuck this. Arrest somebody or STFU.


I used to try and follow this shit. I am not wasting my time or debating with people about it any longer. It's finally warm, I'm going fishing!


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## Grunt (May 21, 2018)

Indeed...this has become the resurrection of Romper Room.....


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## SpitfireV (May 21, 2018)

Agoge said:


> Indeed...this has become the resurrection of Romper Room.....



The UDA kangaroo courts or something else?


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## Grunt (May 21, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> The UDA kangaroo courts or something else?



I am referencing @Ocoka's post....


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## SpitfireV (May 21, 2018)

Agoge said:


> I am referencing @Ocoka's post....



And I'm referencing your Romper Room comment. I don't understand it. I understood you what post you were referencing but I'm not aware of the context.


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## Grunt (May 21, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> And I'm referencing your Romper Room comment. I don't understand it. I understood you what post you were referencing but I'm not aware of the context.



The entire investigation into Russia. At this point, it's becoming a joke and quite frankly it's boring. Time to move on, nothing to see here....


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## RackMaster (May 21, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> The UDA kangaroo courts or something else?



I'm sure he's talking about this one...


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## SpitfireV (May 21, 2018)

What...in the hell is that thing.


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## Topkick (May 21, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> What...in the hell is that thing.


That, my friend, is an American Icon.


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## SpitfireV (May 21, 2018)

Topkick said:


> That, my friend, is an American Icon.


 The First Father?


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## amlove21 (May 22, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> The First Father?


EVERYONE LOOK! THE KIWI DOESN'T KNOW WHO CAPTAIN KANGAROO IS!






Hijack aside- if ya'll are looking for arrests as proof that impropriety was committed... I mean, I don't know how to get you to go into a time machine, go back 45 years, and then pay attention to how these things work. Did Nixon get on that plane and go land to a police district and get into cuffs? Did I miss the arrest and trial of the the biggest political scandal in the last 30 years? Can we all agree that crimes were commited without an arrest, and those crimes hurt America, our political system and the office of the Presidency?

Was Hillary Clinton ever arrested or charged with an actual crime? No? Well, cool, no need to investigate further. You all should let that go. Clinton Foundation? Innocent. No arrests there. Ho hum. Probably on the up and up; no further effort should be expended there, and without charges we can all agree that was wasted time and energy. All this talk about "Killary" and all that nonsense? Insecure ramblings of sycophantic acolytes, too dumb to think for themselves. Stop wasting America's time! 

How dumb does that sound? Jesus, I am the only liberal dude left standing and even I think that the Clinton foundation should be torn brick from brick and see what creepy crawlies lie there. Cause it's _actually got an arrest for a crime in there. I would bet on it.  _


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## CQB (May 22, 2018)

It’s a long complex investigation & it’s not done. No judgements handed down & I’m looking to the end of it, as some here are. I’m interested in the end result.


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## Box (May 22, 2018)

Nixon didn't know about Watergate until after it happened... his guilt (and he WAS guilty) was in the cover up - as for jail time for those involved:

- H.R. Haldeman and John Erlichman (White House staff), resigned 30 April 1973, subsequently jailed
- John Dean (White House legal counsel), sacked 30 April 1973, subsequently jailed
- John Mitchell, Attorney-General and Chairman of the Committee to Re-elect the President (CREEP), jailed
- G. Gordon Liddy (ex-White House staff), planned the Watergate break-in, jailed
- Howard Hunt (ex-White House staff), helped plan the Watergate break-in, both jailed
- Charles Colson, special counsel to the President, jailed
- James McCord (Security Director of CREEP), jailed



Russia collusion hack job:
-touted as bigger than Watergate
-Some folks 'lied' to the FBI about their personal business dealings unrelated to the investigation, no one jailed
-Some government folks leaked classified information, no one jailed or even charged


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## amlove21 (May 22, 2018)

Box said:


> ...snip...


Everyone Robert Mueller Charged in Russia Investigation Against President Trump's Campaign Team

First google result. There have been plenty of charges thus far (and we are not done yet) but for some reason it’s stil a hack job? If you don’t count the 16 Russians (which you should but whatever), why are those arrests not enough?

As far as getting caught up in the hype about how big this story is- watch out for that fake news. I hear it’s everywhere these days.

ETA- with the exception of Liddy, most of the Watergate jail time was between 3-7 months mostly for breaking and entering. Nothing to do with the crime Nixon knew nothing about. Which is a bit of a weird claim because Nixon taped everything. nixontapes.org - Nixon Tapes and Transcripts


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## Box (May 22, 2018)

My google box works good - over a year in and Everyone Robert Mueller Charged in Russia Investigation Against President Trump's Campaign Team stands accused of crimes that were taking place years before the election except for the actual Russian gangsters.  
Otherwise, it looks a lot like crimes that seem like they would be pretty common of any international business person if they were looked at by a special counsel.  I'm sure if the scope was sincere, the Clinton Foundation and associated syndicate would have also been targeted by the special counsel since he is looking for ALL of the truth and not just some random hook to snare the POTUS....

-Manafort: personal finance prior to 2014 - nothing to do with Russia stealing an election
-Gates: personal finance prior to - nothing to do with Russia stealing an election
-Papadopoulos: one count of false statement
-Flynn: one count of false statement
-Van Der Zwaan: one count of false statement
-13 Russians:  charged with fraud resulting in 13 advertisements critical of the Clinton syndicate
-Pinedo: identity fraud dating back to 2014- a criminal act that should be prosecuted in a criminal court - but still not related to Russians help POTUS steal the election

What I see is a hack job brought on by a 'trumped' up charge after the head of FBI admittedly leaked information that he admittedly leaked with hopes that it would instigate the establishment of a special counsel 
...the view from my foxhole is a politically motivated hack job that looks like it is geared towards delegitimizing the administration until enough people can be charged with making a "false statement" that they are able to charge the POTUS with obstruction of justice or perjury.

I am fully aware that my viewpoint is slanted towards my side of the aisle and that the tinfoil lining in my hat prevents me from being fair to certain parcels of news - but that doesn't mean I don't peruse multiple venues before forming my politically slanted opinions. I also recognize full that George Stephanopoulos and Sean Hannity could both read the same list of facts prior to going on the air and yet their reporting on said facts would sound remarkably different based solely who they are talking about.  

The current POTUS is no more or less morally superior to any other resident of 1600 Pennsylvania Avenue over the last 200 years so the hype is relative.  The same folks that think Stormy Daniels should get more air time are the same folks that think what happened with Monica Lewinsky was a personal matter between Bill and Hillary.  The same folks that think Hillary should be drawn and quartered over money from the Clinton Foundation will just as quickly try to justify Manafort's shady finances as the cost of running an international business.

Nobody is innocent here - not the left, not the right - the only victims are the American people that got stuck with a general election cycle worthy of a complete season worth of South Park episodes.  

Opinions may vary


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## amlove21 (May 23, 2018)

@Box - so, all the whattaboutism aside- you feel that there is absolutely nothing to the Russia investigation? The Trump campaign/administration never used or tried to use Russia to hurt Hillary’s campaign and ultimately help President Trump win? 

Even knowing the facts we do now- the Trump tower meeting, the Russia/Facebook ads, all of it- you truly feel this is nothing more than a concerted political hack job?


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## Box (May 23, 2018)

Correct - the idea that this is some Jason Bourne style conspiracy to use Russian operatives to defeat Hillary Clinton is balderdash to me. 
Complete balderdash.


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## CDG (May 23, 2018)

Hillary did enough to compromise her campaign on her own. The inability to accept that she lost does not mean there is a conspiracy behind it.


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## amlove21 (May 23, 2018)

Box said:


> Correct - the idea that this is some Jason Bourne style conspiracy to use Russian operatives to defeat Hillary Clinton is balderdash to me.
> Complete balderdash.


Even though there have been 17 charges and 5 guilty pleas? And the longer this goes, the more happens.

It bears saying- Don Jr met with Russians in a meeting they initially denied because they hoped to gain information to hurt Hillary. When the meeting DIDNT play out like that, members of President Trump’s campaign were visably pissed.

How is that balderdash?

New Poll: Most Americans don’t realize Robert Mueller’s investigation has uncovered crimes


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## amlove21 (May 23, 2018)

CDG said:


> Hillary did enough to compromise her campaign on her own. The inability to accept that she lost does not mean there is a conspiracy behind it.


This investigation has absolutely nothing to do with Hillary at this point. The very fact that people still include her name in any of the investigative points is absolutely ludicrous. 

I personally don’t care that she lost. I care that President Trump’s team invited Russians into Trump Tower with the intent to gain information about a campaign opponent, then initially lied, and now insists that despite the facts of the matter that they didn’t ask Russians for help to win the American presidential election.


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## ThunderHorse (May 23, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> This investigation has absolutely nothing to do with Hillary at this point. The very fact that people still include her name in any of the investigative points is absolutely ludicrous.
> 
> I personally don’t care that she lost. I care that President Trump’s team invited Russians into Trump Tower with the intent to gain information about a campaign opponent, then initially lied, and now insists that despite the facts of the matter that they didn’t ask Russians for help to win the American presidential election.


I completely disagree with this, I posted a link in the OT thread about the malfeasance of the Clinton Foundation.  But this is a witch hunt. Pure and simple.  We've talk of Uranium One, CGI donations and somehow Madame Secretary and her ilk are getting off with nothing?  When it's quite clear that investigations by the FBI under McCabe and Comey into the Trump campaign were politically motivated...cmon man.


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## amlove21 (May 23, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> I completely disagree with this, I posted a link in the OT thread about the malfeasance of the Clinton Foundation.  But this is a witch hunt. Pure and simple.  We've talk of Uranium One, CGI donations and somehow Madame Secretary and her ilk are getting off with nothing?  When it's quite clear that investigations by the FBI under McCabe and Comey into the Trump campaign were politically motivated...cmon man.


 Disagree all you want.

The investigation is about Russian interference in the election and President Trump’s campaign actively including Russians in the winning of that election.

If you have proof that the Clinton’s are driving this investigation for political reasons or that the DOJ is a politically motivated organization AND favors the democrats, present it. You’ll be the first person in America that can do so, you’ll take down the whole DOJ, and you’ll have a lifetime membership to the Fox app for your smartphone or tablet.


Until then, cmon man indeed.


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## ThunderHorse (May 23, 2018)

I read all sorts of new sources, Fox tends not to be one of them.  Clinton isn't driving this investigation, but the Dems certainly got it started.


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## amlove21 (May 23, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> I read all sorts of new sources, Fox tends not to be one of them.  Clinton isn't driving this investigation, but the Dems certainly got it started.


Yep. But that’s miles away from the claim you made. And regardless of who started it- if there are crimes, there are crimes. 17 charges 5 guilty pleas. 

And as far as I am aware, the DOJ is conducting the investigation not the Democrats. Not driven by the Clinton’s, and the reason the investigation was started wasn’t ‘cause Hilary lost’. 

Saying otherwise is intellectually dishonest.


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## ThunderHorse (May 23, 2018)

Not really, I see a pure parallel with the birther shit.  Except I have yet to see an Officer refuse to deploy under Trump or Sue the executive.


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## amlove21 (May 23, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Not really, I see a pure parallel with the birther shit.  Except I have yet to see an Officer refuse to deploy under Trump or Sue the executive.


WTF even is this post.


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## Centermass (May 23, 2018)

All I know is 2 pm tomorrow and what happens afterwards, will definitely be interesting to say the least.



ThunderHorse said:


> Not really, I see a pure parallel with the birther shit.  Except I have yet to see an Officer refuse to deploy under Trump or Sue the executive.



Dude.........
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





You sure enjoy getting cleat marks on wee willy winky.....


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## Topkick (May 25, 2018)

So in this thread we may compare Trump to Obama, but the reality is that Obama is the one playing tit for tat here. In the end though, it's really just about Obama falsely claiming that he had no real scandals.


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## amlove21 (May 25, 2018)

Topkick said:


> So in this thread we may compare Trump to Obama, but the reality is that Obama is the one playing tit for tat here. In the end though, it's really just about Obama falsely claiming that he had no real scandals.


That’s just like, your opinion, man. 

What’s a scandal, what’s Obama’s threshold for embarrassment, maybe he thinks Benghazi was more of a Hillary embarrassment and not his, yada yada yada. The dude was off the record and made some private remarks. 

Just a little locker room talk. No need for all the outrage over a couple sentences.


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## 256 (May 30, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> More witches...
> 
> Mueller team moves another case toward sentencing
> (via POLITICO for iOS)
> Mueller team moves another case toward sentencing



Certain I’ve heard this somewhere, fruit of the poisonous tree. How many things can you investigate that don’t have the word “Russia” written on it?


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## amlove21 (May 30, 2018)

256 said:


> Certain I’ve heard this somewhere, fruit of the poisonous tree. How many things can you investigate that don’t have the word “Russia” written on it?


Not following your logic. 

In the course of an investigation about Russian interference (and possible collusion), it was found that this dude made it possible to transfer money to Russians in order to manipulate our election- and you don’t think that’s got anything to do with Russians? 

Do you think that this guy should not be prosecuted for his actions?


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## Isiah6:8 (May 30, 2018)

256 said:


> Certain I’ve heard this somewhere, fruit of the poisonous tree. How many things can you investigate that don’t have the word “Russia” written on it?



Fruit of the poisonous tree refers to things that are obtained illegally are dismissed in court.  So all the "fruits" come from a "poisoned tree" in searches done by police etc.  Probably recently heard it if you watched the Unabomber series on Netflix since Ted was looking to claim that the search warrant which led to all the evidence was obtained off an unproven and illegal method.  So all the evidence would be dismissed in court and he would have walked.

My question would be that how easy in this case would fruit of the poisonous tree be as a defense?  After potentially having an issue with TK, did agencies make sure that they had ways around having that thrown on them unless something black and white happened?

ETA:  Hit enter too early.


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## Kheenbish (May 30, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> More witches...
> 
> Mueller team moves another case toward sentencing
> (via POLITICO for iOS)
> Mueller team moves another case toward sentencing


 Not to say you're wrong or right, but I feel like by posting articles such as this one in the Trump Presidency thread you are almost insinuating that this all connects to the POTUS in some way. While I myself and many others I believe would agree some level of interference was ran by Russia, I think most of us just don't agree it was ran in conjunction with the approval of President Trump. Clear evidence shows Russia ran some campaign, but clear evidence hasn't shown President Trump was involved directly. 

  I think articles such as these deserves their own thread with a head topic of Russian Interference in relation to the election and not necessarily should go under a thread about the POTUS. 

Just my 2c.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (May 30, 2018)

Kheenbish said:


> I think articles such as these deserves their own thread with a head topic of Russian Interference in relation to the election and not necessarily should go under a thread about the POTUS.
> 
> Just my 2c.



*That's a good idea...I've got a little time, I'll work on it now.*


----------



## 256 (May 30, 2018)

Isiah6:8 said:


> Fruit of the poisonous tree refers to things that are obtained illegally are dismissed in court.  So all the "fruits" come from a "poisoned tree" in searches done by police etc.  Probably recently heard it if you watched the Unabomber series on Netflix since Ted was looking to claim that the search warrant which led to all the evidence was obtained off an unproven and illegal method.  So all the evidence would be dismissed in court and he would have walked.
> 
> My question would be that how easy in this case would fruit of the poisonous tree be as a defense?  After potentially having an issue with TK, did agencies make sure that they had ways around having that thrown on them unless something black and white happened?
> 
> ETA:  Hit enter too early.




I understand the phrase, good explanation. The investigators seem to be pulling material from past search warrants


amlove21 said:


> Not following your logic.
> 
> In the course of an investigation about Russian interference (and possible collusion), it was found that this dude made it possible to transfer money to Russians in order to manipulate our election- and you don’t think that’s got anything to do with Russians?
> 
> Do you think that this guy should not be prosecuted for his actions?



Yeah, I get it. But that information came from search warrants, I assume. Search warrants are flying all over from information gained from previous warrants which leads to new cases. If the guy did wrong, punish him. I just find it interesting how many “in plain view” cases get thrown out which IMO, seems to be what’s developing here. We were looking for this and found this, can we get a new warrant now? It’s a witch hunt as said before.


----------



## Isiah6:8 (May 30, 2018)

256 said:


> I understand the phrase, good explanation. The investigators seem to be pulling material from past search warrants.



Sorry, I wasn't tracking that the material was pulled from subject warrants.  Didn't realize that would be in play.  Thanks


----------



## 256 (May 30, 2018)

Isiah6:8 said:


> Sorry, I wasn't tracking that the material was pulled from subject warrants.  Didn't realize that would be in play.  Thanks



Don’t be sorry. I said “I assume” that’s where it comes from, it’s just my opinion. Opinions are just that.[/QUOTE]


----------



## Devildoc (Jun 12, 2018)

Judge orders Mueller to name sources.  Although it likely won't amount to much difference in the outcome, I see it as a 'win' because I think every defendant has a right to know what 'evidence' the prosecutor has.

Judge orders Mueller to identify unnamed figures in Manafort indictment


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 12, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Judge orders Mueller to name sources.  Although it likely won't amount to much difference in the outcome, I see it as a 'win' because I think every defendant has a right to know what 'evidence' the prosecutor has.
> 
> Judge orders Mueller to identify unnamed figures in Manafort indictment


This also forces Mueller's hand in the big picture.
Manafort may have screwed up post-indictment, but the events leading up to it will bite a lot of swamp dwellers in the ass.


----------



## Devildoc (Jun 12, 2018)

Things not looking so hot for the FBI....

Rosenstein threatened to 'subpoena' GOP-led committee in 'chilling' clash over records, emails show

Lawmaker blasts FBI's 'highly questionable redactions' to Strzok-Page texts

Demoted FBI agent Peter Strzok had larger role in Clinton, Russia probes than previously known


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 12, 2018)

This is guy is getting torn a new one by Gowdy: Fireworks at Strzok hearing as GOP reps fume at anti-Trump FBI agent, threaten contempt


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 12, 2018)

Strzok and his little gal pal Page aren't playing nice....


----------



## Box (Jul 12, 2018)

smoke and mirrors - all of this testimony is nothing more than kabuki theater since no one is ever held accountable

contempt of congress - hahaha - didn't congress hold some guy named 'Eric' in contempt a few years ago?
...what ever happened with that?


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 12, 2018)

There's never any teeth to their threat of contempt.  So with that, if I was Strzok and Page, why would I care?  Do it.


----------



## Poccington (Jul 12, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> This is guy is getting torn a new one by Gowdy: Fireworks at Strzok hearing as GOP reps fume at anti-Trump FBI agent, threaten contempt



How exactly is he getting torn a new one? He has been unflappable.

It's an absolute joke of a hearing. Nothing more than political theatre.


----------



## Poccington (Jul 12, 2018)

They should hold Strzok in contempt around the same time they decide to hold Steve Bannon in contempt for just flat out refusing to answer questions to the House Intel Committee regarding the Trump Campaign and transition for no reason other than the White House told him not to. When Goodlatte was called on the hypocrisy today he just went red in the fact.

At least Strzok had a legit reason for not answering the question.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 12, 2018)

Poccington said:


> How exactly is he getting torn a new one? He has been unflappable.
> 
> It's an absolute joke of a hearing. Nothing more than political theatre.


Well friend, it seems I know where you stand on this.  The Strzok fellow obviously had political motivations and is clearly in line with why people don't trust the FBI.


----------



## Poccington (Jul 12, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Well friend, it seems I know where you stand on this.  The Strzok fellow obviously had political motivations and is clearly in line with why people don't trust the FBI.



The DOJs IG says differently... And he actually investigated the matter.

In all seriousness though, it really is just political theatre. They've already spoken to him for 11 hours and have undoubtedly been made aware of the fact he's been told by the FBI Counsel to not indulge details of an ongoing criminal investigation, as per DOJ policy... So the first thing they do is ask a question about an ongoing criminal investigation and threaten him with contempt? A Democrat holding up Paul Manaforts mugshot? Nobody at that hearing, Rs and Ds alike, really care about Peter Strzok, his texts, the Russia investigation or... Both sides just wanna grandstand for their respective bases and either provide top cover for POTUS or try undercut him, depending on which side they're on.

They've as much interest in oversight as I have in synchronised swimming.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 12, 2018)

Poccington said:


> They've as much interest in oversight as I have in synchronised swimming.


I agree on the "political theater" comment from you and others (and especially with @Box and his view on "accountability", couldn't agree more).

But seriously, synchronized swimmers are SUUUUUPER awesome, you should pay more attention. It's more worth your time than this circus is, trust me.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 12, 2018)

Pursuant to synchronized swimming, I'm always happy when they ladies are practicing when I lap swim because then they have the underwater sound system on making it less monotonous.

Back to those who chose to be outraged and believe, or chose to believe the Russia thing was a political farce.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jul 12, 2018)

Former D/AD Strzok was way to arrogant today...glad he is gone from the Bureau, he was one of the problems...IMHO


----------



## Topkick (Jul 12, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> Former D/AD Strzok was way to arrogant today...glad he is gone from the Bureau, he was one of the problems...IMHO


He admitted that he loathes Trump but says he isn't biased. He went on to admit that he mentioned in emails impeaching Trump several times before giving any reason, but still maintains that he isn't biased. Ah, ok.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 13, 2018)

So, question. 

Why is President Trump _still _calling the Russian election interference issue a "witch hunt" when his DOJ is uncovering (and indicting) more and more Russians for election interference?

This thread should have been about 2 posts long- "Does anyone think that Russia interfered with our election?" Second post- "Yes" and then a shit ton of likes. Thread over. 

Why the hell isn't the president taking every opportunity to condemn Russia for interfering in our election?! Not a single tweet, not a single statement. 

Stand up for America on this one, sir.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 13, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> So, question.
> 
> Why is President Trump _still _calling the Russian election interference issue a "witch hunt" when his DOJ is uncovering (and indicting) more and more Russians for election interference?
> 
> ...



Answer: He likes Putin.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 13, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Answer: He likes Putin.


No. Collusion. 

It's a fucking foul. And now he's going to "consider stopping military exercises" if Putin asks.


----------



## SaintKP (Jul 13, 2018)

It would potentially/completely discredit (depending on how you look at it) his win over Hillary. So why would you go against the man who put you into the strongest position in the world? The answer is you wouldn't.


----------



## Kaldak (Jul 13, 2018)

@amlove21 I might get some shit on this...

Why shouldn't we want get along with Russia? 

Don't we all mess with each other in some way or another? I'm not saying it's right nor saying that we shouldn't act to rectify it; but the one thing I see being glossed over is the possibility to have a good relationship with Russia and a move to a more peaceful world.

Of course assuming that everyone agrees to the same rules, which I realize may be a pipe dream.


----------



## Poccington (Jul 13, 2018)

Topkick said:


> He admitted that he loathes Trump but says he isn't biased. He went on to admit that he mentioned in emails impeaching Trump several times before giving any



He said his political viewpoints shouldn't be directly assumed to result in a bias in his work, he left his bias at the door when he started work everyday. To date, not a single person has been able to point towards a single investigative action taken by Strozk that was fuelled or influenced by political bias and that includes the DOJ IG after a lengthy investigation. It's also worth noting that Strozk was the one pushing for stronger measures during the Clinton investigation, looking to issue subpoenas and convene a grand jury... Only to be overruled. 

As he put it himself, if he was a partisan actor trying to bring down Trumps presidential bid... Why not just leak the fact the Russia investigation existed and sink his campaign? 

It could of course all change in the future if new facts come to light but as it stands, it looks like his political viewpoints didn't influence his work.


----------



## Blizzard (Jul 13, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> Former D/AD Strzok was way to arrogant today...glad he is gone from the Bureau, he was one of the problems...IMHO


Yes, he was...and he completely lacks any integrity.  He is a f'n clown.


----------



## Centermass (Jul 13, 2018)

Poccington said:


> He said his political viewpoints shouldn't be directly assumed to result in a bias in his work, *he left his bias at the door when he started work everyday. *
> 
> 
> 
> ...



After watching his testimony (Coupled with the content of his text messages) I'm not buying it for a second. And when you're in a position such as this, oft times, you can influence things with WHAT YOU DON'T DO as well.

Based on how long this entire shit show has taken, I am beginning to seriously doubt him, or anyone else for that matter, will be prosecuted.

When you declare your CINC guilty and should face impeachment, before a single person is even interviewed, pretty much says it right there.

A perfect example of how this agent's credibilty is a contradiction in terms:

Strzok added that during the 2016 campaign, he had information that_ *“had the potential to derail and quite possibly defeat Mr. Trump. But the thought of exposing that information never crossed my mind.” *_


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 13, 2018)

Hmmmm, the FBI burned their reputation over politics. Granted hundreds of good agents, screwed by a few at the top,  but after watching that hearing in full, and the other one with deputy director of DOJ and the director of the FBI. I have no faith in either the DOJ or the FBI to conduct politically unbiased investigation and or prosecution's.

This maybe political theatre, mainly because congress has no real capacity to do anything about this. But on the short end, these guys have no business in federal law enforcement. 

Do I think Russians interfered with the 2016 election? Absolutely. Do I think Trump knowingly conspired with Russian FSB operatives during the 2016 elections? Fuck no, why in the fuck would he? Clinton was damaged goods 3 years before she entered the campaign. And if there was any remote shred of evidence showing he truly knowingly colluded with Russia, that shit would be front and fucking center, right now, 9 months ago. 

What's going to happen, is Muller is going to release some bullshit, as midterm elections get into the end of their campaigns, in an attempt to sway the voters. It will be a fucking volume issue of thousands of pages of bullshit with opinion accusations with no clear evidence of collusion. Russian indictments aren't worth the paper they are printed on and this will continue to be political theatre, especially if the dems retake the house, in an attempt to grind down Trumps 2020 campaign.  

If you are buying the circus and bread, you need to open your eyes to the big picture. 

My .02


----------



## Topkick (Jul 13, 2018)

Poccington said:


> He said his political viewpoints shouldn't be directly assumed to result in a bias in his work, he left his bias at the door


Yeah, not buying it. He said he would stop Trump from becoming president. IMO, that says it all.


----------



## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jul 13, 2018)

Well, the article on DoJ pressing charges on 12 GRU officers makes me think there will be further sanctioning or some diplomatic punishment coming from the White House. 

The President is not shy about calling out the Russians. I doubt there was collusion of anything more than his public statement about Russia publishing all those erased emails.

DOJ Indicts 12 Russian GRU Officers


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 13, 2018)

BlackSmokeRisinG said:


> The President is not shy about calling out the Russians


Uh. What? 

Can you find an example off the President saying that Russia meddled with the election? Or ‘calling out’ the Russians? I must have missed that...


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 13, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Uh. What?
> 
> Can you find an example off the President saying that Russia meddled with the election? Or ‘calling out’ the Russians? I must have missed that...



Easy day. Trump - Looks like Russians behind attack


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 13, 2018)

There's no such thing as coincidences in politics. He's getting ready to meet with Putin in 2 days, and they just announced this now? It came out for a reason.  I have no idea what it is, but there ain't no way that timing is unrelated.

It is not terribly surprising that the Russians meddled by their elections. But collusion?  Nope.


----------



## Centermass (Jul 13, 2018)

Well that's interesting. So is the timing.

Those hackers will never be tried, let alone extradited. Of course, he already knew this .


----------



## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jul 13, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Uh. What?
> 
> Can you find an example off the President saying that Russia meddled with the election? Or ‘calling out’ the Russians? I must have missed that...



There are more instances, but here is one:Trump Calls Out Iran, North Korea; Labels China, Russia 'Rivals'

I don't believe our president is in bed with the Russians, or that he is afraid to sanction them.


----------



## Centermass (Jul 13, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> There's no such thing as coincidences in politics. He's getting ready to meet with Putin in 2 days, and they just announced this now? It came out for a reason.  I have no idea what it is, but there ain't no way that timing is unrelated.
> 
> It is not terribly surprising that the Russians meddled by their elections. But collusion?  Nope.



Beat me to it..you salty dog you.....


----------



## Topkick (Jul 13, 2018)

BlackSmokeRisinG said:


> There are more instances, but here is one:Trump Calls Out Iran, North Korea; Labels China, Russia 'Rivals'
> 
> I don't believe our president is in bed with the Russians, or that he is afraid to sanction them.



The same folks who worry Trump will start WWIII hate it when the president tries diplomacy with Russia, China, and NK.


----------



## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jul 13, 2018)

^Pelosi and Schumer are calling for President Trump to not meet with Putin after the indictments.

It's like him not meeting KJU after years of what they do...


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 13, 2018)

Poccington said:


> He said his political viewpoints shouldn't be directly assumed to result in a bias in his work, he left his bias at the door when he started work everyday. To date, not a single person has been able to point towards a single investigative action taken by Strozk that was fuelled or influenced by political bias and that includes the DOJ IG after a lengthy investigation. It's also worth noting that Strozk was the one pushing for stronger measures during the Clinton investigation, looking to issue subpoenas and convene a grand jury... Only to be overruled.
> 
> As he put it himself, if he was a partisan actor trying to bring down Trumps presidential bid... Why not just leak the fact the Russia investigation existed and sink his campaign?
> 
> It could of course all change in the future if new facts come to light but as it stands, it looks like his political viewpoints didn't influence his work.


Yeah, uh, not believing that horse manure one bit.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Jul 13, 2018)

Topkick said:


> The same folks who worry Trump will start WWIII hate it when the president tries diplomacy with Russia, China, and NK.



Agree 100%.

I've watched years of Law and Order so I'm an expert.  If this collision thingy was an episode it wouldn't even make it 10 minutes.



Chung Chung!!
Somewhere in Washington DC....
Judge: "are you seriously thinking that Hillary lost because of Russia and not the fact she sucks and is a criminal?"
Democratic party: " President Trump is meanie head who says what he thinks and that hurts our feelings and Russia is mean too."
Judge: "Bailiff please escort the Democrats to nap time!"

Chung Chung!


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 13, 2018)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Chung Chung!!


Is mimicking the Chinese really necessary?


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 13, 2018)

BlackSmokeRisinG said:


> There are more instances, but here is one:
> 
> I don't believe our president is in bed with the Russians, or that he is afraid to sanction them.


Do you have one after January? Like, after we’ve found beyond a shadow of a doubt that Russia hacked the DNC with the explicit purpose of helping President Trump win? That would be relevant. 



Topkick said:


> The same folks who worry Trump will start WWIII hate it when the president tries diplomacy with Russia, China, and NK.


And the same folks that nearly shit themselves over the words ‘radical Islamic terrorists’ are calling coetowing to Putin (he’s a rival, remember?) ‘diplomacy’. It seems the time for harsh language would be now. 

I feel like we are missing something too- this has nothing to do with collusion. You’ve all taken the bait a little bit too much here, I think. We are finding more and more evidence- indictment worthy evidence- that Russia fucked with our election process. Doesn’t that piss anyone off? 

Russia influenced our election.There hasn’t been sufficient evidence to prove there was intent from President Trump’s campaign to collude with Russianin that effort; but everyone including you, @SpongeBob*24 , is conflating those issues as one thing part and parcel are missing the point either willfully for party line reasons or- whatever else. 

We’ve found, during Meuller’s investigation, that Russia influenced our election process. Full stop. 

The fact that people aren’t supremely pissed off about that fact is surprising as fuck. Russia should be harshly sanctioned, not treated with kid gloves and fawned over. Fox News and the President got their wish- all the sycophants out there are just parroting the fake news/no collusion rhetoric and letting Russia off with a pass. 

Regardless of how many business interests and profits the President may or may not have in that country. Not saying that he does; just saying that would make a lot of sense and lots of people are saying that. Smart people. 

😎


----------



## Blizzard (Jul 13, 2018)

Racist


----------



## Topkick (Jul 13, 2018)

@amlove21 i have to disagree. When you ask another superpower for support on the war on radical islamic terrorism, and a reduction in nukes,  its diplomacy, IMO.


----------



## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jul 13, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> I feel like we are missing something too- this has nothing to do with collusion. You’ve all taken the bait a little bit too much here, I think. We are finding more and more evidence- indictment worthy evidence- that Russia fucked with our election process. Doesn’t that piss anyone off?
> 
> Russia influenced our election.There hasn’t been sufficient evidence to prove there was intent from President Trump’s campaign to collude with Russianin that effort; but everyone including you, @SpongeBob*24 , is conflating those issues as one thing part and parcel are missing the point either willfully for party line reasons or- whatever else.
> 
> ...



They knew Russia hacked the election board before the election. It was during President Obama's last few months, and I think the time to do anything would have been then. Just because President Trump has not done anything yet doesn't mean nothing will happen. 

After he meets with Putin, and see what goes on with the indictments, then we can ask why not sanctions. I dont' know how exactly the proccess works, but I'm sure the actual indictments help the case.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 13, 2018)

Wait, so the democrats calling for impeachment of Trump due to cullusion with Russians to interfere with the 2016 election, no longer is relevant? So the whole reason this investigation started doesn't matter, just the fact that Russian hacked the DNC?


Here is a news flash, nations have influenced our elections for years, we have also heavily influenced other nations election processes. We have also, covertly overthrown elected and nonelected governments. We have started civil unreat, riots and started civil wars in foreign countries.  And we are suppoed to be shocked, or outraged that someone else has done that to us? 

If you haven't noticed, Russia has fucked with two allies in Europe in the past 10 years, practically took over Georgia, and annexed Crimea from Ukraine, while supporting separatist in the Easter region's of Ukraine. We have moved closer to and closer to a cold war with Russia and the NATO alliance nations. Nevermind that we have been sanctioning the living crap out of Russia for the past 8-9 years already. Now you want to up those sanctions, because they hack the DNC and released a bunch of shit the DNCwas trying to keep secret from the American people?

We're not talking about hacked and released false or invalid information, just released the true bullshit the DNC was pulling...like the whole pushing Bernie Sanders out of the running, covering Clinton's bullshit up, game plan bullshit, etc.

In close, I'm not shocked, I'm not upset. Unless they can prove direct hacking of election counts and or collusion between the  Trump campaign and the Russian government. I couldn't really care less...


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 13, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Do you have one after January? Like, after we’ve found beyond a shadow of a doubt that Russia hacked the DNC with the explicit purpose of helping President Trump win? That would be relevant.
> 
> 
> And the same folks that nearly shit themselves over the words ‘radical Islamic terrorists’ are calling coetowing to Putin (he’s a rival, remember?) ‘diplomacy’. It seems the time for harsh language would be now.
> ...


Am I pissed off that another country fucked with our elections one way or the other?  I've covered multiple times how Hillary was bought and paid for through the CGI, one of the main donors was a Russian who purchased a stake in Uranium One which was allowed by Shipwreck Hillary.

How many times have we meddled in even our allies elections?  Seriously, we can't get holier than thou right now.  More like, jokes on us, we suck.

Yes, this is a witch hunt.  I'm quite sure Hillary would have had her transition team meeting with multiple people to talk about the future and nothing would have happened.  Why?  Because until our peak outrage culture that was the norm.  Why was John Kerry going off and speaking to foreign governments a few months ago?

I'm with @Diamondback 2/2 on this, do we want Russia's help fighting Islamists, or do we want to Sanction them which really won't affect their economy?


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 13, 2018)

Topkick said:


> @amlove21 i have to disagree. When you ask another superpower for support on the war on radical islamic terrorism, and a reduction in nukes,  its diplomacy, IMO.


Do you think that the ‘war on radical Islamic terrorism’ is a more clear and present danger to the US than Russia is?



BlackSmokeRisinG said:


> Just because President Trump has not done anything yet doesn't mean nothing will happen.


Well, we agree- the President has done nothing about the Russian hacking/election meddling. Well, he did ask Putin, Putin said they didn’t. Maybe you’re right and he’s playing 4D chess and winning. Or maybe Putin is just eating his lunch. Let’s wait it out. 



ThunderHorse said:


> I'm with @Diamondback 2/2 on this, do we want Russia's help fighting Islamists, or do we want to Sanction them which really won't affect their economy?


1- why are you talking about Hillary? Let’s talk about Russia.  2- why do we need Russia’s help again in the ‘war against Islamic terrorism’? 3- I’d rather toe a very hard line with a near peer competitor and stop losing at every step. Literally, every single interaction with Russia we’ve come out looking like a lil bitch. Weren’t we supposed to win bigly at all this stuff? 

@Diamondback 2/2 no, all the collusion talk might come full circle and those Democrats might get the impeachment they so desire. But this is the Russian election interference thread; new indictments were handed out today incriminating more Russians. I am more interested in being a pissed off American citizen than I am blaming a political party because it’s not MY political party. 

Again- no one (especially not me) is saying ‘Russia hacked election counts/machines’. 

I am saying, ‘Russia hacked the DNC, released information during key times of the election, and influenced the election process to get the candidate they wanted in the White House’.

And now, that candidate, now President, seems to be very very soft on Russia and nobody finds that odd.


----------



## Topkick (Jul 13, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> you think that the ‘war on radical Islamic terrorism’ is a more clear and present danger to the US than Russia is?


That, my friend, is a fair question.


----------



## SpitfireV (Jul 13, 2018)

There is some evidence of possibly Russian *attempts* to hack the people producing the voting machines. 

Top-Secret NSA Report Details Russian Hacking Effort Days Before 2016 Election

Note before someone has an aneurism: There are leaked NSA documents on there but the NSA has asked for and received redactions before publishing.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 13, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Do you think that the ‘war on radical Islamic terrorism’ is a more clear and present danger to the US than Russia is?
> 
> 
> Well, we agree- the President has done nothing about the Russian hacking/election meddling. Well, he did ask Putin, Putin said they didn’t. Maybe you’re right and he’s playing 4D chess and winning. Or maybe Putin is just eating his lunch. Let’s wait it out.
> ...


Are you implying that I am more interested in blaming the DNC vs Russia?

I think both party's can go to hell at this point. But no, I'm not mad at russia for doing what every nation does, to include ourselves. I'm more shocked at the DNC's content that was leaked, the follow on hysteria of Clinton and Obama to pitch our country against possible war with Russia over their embarrassment over their own internal bullshit. More so, I am extremely shocked at the politicization of the DOJ and FBI at the upper levels under the Obama administration.  

If they want to put indictments on all kinds of Russians for whatever the fuck, right on. If they want to sanction Russia, and or attempt to pitch us into another cold war, because the DNC got hacked and their bullshit got aired out. Nah, I'm not good with that. I want out country to develop better relations with Russia, I don't want to see another cold war or arms race. I'd like my daughter's and son to grow up in a world where "Red Dawn" is not the underlining bullshit threat.

I'd also like to get this whole Islamic terrorism bullshit over with, 17 years later and we haven't got the job done, because everyone wants to be politically correct and culturally diverse, with people who want to kill us or convert us.

But anyway, this thread is about Russian involvement in the 2016 elections, and as stated before, I don't care unless they fucked with the vote counts or clear collusion is proved.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 13, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Do you think that the ‘war on radical Islamic terrorism’ is a more clear and present danger to the US than Russia is?


Answering this question the way I want to cues some issues.  But I will just go with an emphatic, yes.


----------



## SpitfireV (Jul 13, 2018)

That would make a good thread topic.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 14, 2018)

I still think that Russia was just trying to sow hate and discontent in the last election, and were just as surprised as the rest of the world was when President Trump won.

I kind of wonder, though, didn't Russia do the US a favor?  And I mean besides ensuring that Trump won (if that's what you believe), even though that was a HUGE favor to us.  So even if we accept that the Russians hacked the DNC's servers and were responsible for dumping the contents to Wikileaks, which I agree is probable, what did those records reveal?  That the Clinton Campaign and the DNC really did conspire against the Sanders Campaign and the will of Democrat voters, to rig the primary for Secretary Clinton?  That Clinton was regularly receiving classified information on her private devices?   That even with a rigged primary, the collusion of government officials (some of whom were supposed to be investigating her) and highly influential members of the press, and the fact that it was "her turn" to be president, she STILL couldn't pull it off?

Our election system is based on the Electoral College.  Even if the Russians fully intervened to support Trump, most of those states were going to go for Trump or Clinton regardless of what those late-stage leaks showed.  The election was Clinton's to lose, and she lost it.  And now we have President Trump, whom I did not vote for, but would vote for today if he was up for re-election.

...and if Russia was able to so easily hack the Democratic National Convention, a massive, enormously well-funded organization which presumably did not want to get hacked and had significant security measures in place to protect itself, what does it say about a server sitting... I know know in the basement of someone's private home?  A server that we now know, courtesy of the Russians, handled "*sensitive, highly classified information*?"

I guess we should get the server and all of the devices that fed into it so we can examine them forensically and... oh wait.  I forgot.  Someone made sure that wouldn't happen.

The American People are better off knowing about the corruption going on behind closed doors.  Let that disinfecting sunlight in...





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=1973667739334806


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 14, 2018)

Yikes... 

Ok, welp! Big gulps huh? Alright! 

I think I’m tracking the varying view points here. I don’t know if there’s a productive conversation further than this point. It’s never black and white, but it seems like we fall into two camps on this one. 

A - ‘State sponsored election hacking/influencing is unacceptable and should be punished when discovered’  

Or. 

B - ‘There are a lot of other factors at play here and given certain circumstances, state sponsored election hacking isn’t that important to me.’


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 14, 2018)

Not really.  Is someone interfering in our elections something that should be punished? The answer is it depends.  What do we want from the Nation that chose to execute said interference?  If we want nothing? Punish them.  If we want something, well you want keep going: Oh the Russians, the Russians.

What I see clearly as the objective of their interference was to sew division amongst us, the result didn't matter because we'd just as divided on this forum with Hillary. Obviously above most of our clearance levels, but how many of their elections have we interfered with? Probably every single one.  And they want something from us, which is why you don't see the Russians throwing sanctions at us.  

Did you know, that the most FIFA World Cup tickets purchased by nationality were from Americans?  Our team isn't in that thing and we had the largest contingent of citizens traveling to Russia to watch soccer there.  Yeah, let's throw up some sanctions so that over 30-40k of our citizens get harassed on their way in.  Sounds smart as shit.

It's egg on our face.


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 14, 2018)

It's politics and foreign policy. It's always conditional.  Always.  

Is it good? No. Is it legal? No. Is it ethical? No.  But it is part and parcel of politics and foreign policy.


----------



## AWP (Jul 14, 2018)

I expect the Soviets/ Russians to hack us to their advantage.

I do not expect our president to accept or profit from this to their advantage.

In other words, if this hand feeds you, great, but you to bite it like a rabid monkey at some point.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 14, 2018)

Do I believe the Russians influenced the election? Yes, without a doubt. We do the same thing to every other country.

Do I believe Trump knowingly worked with  a FIS to help win the election? No. 

Does that mean should he have worked with a FIS unknowingly that he gets to walk away freely? No. Ignorance is not an excusable defense. 

Did Peter Storzk act impartially with regards to the investigation? I believe he violated the Hatch Act and was inappropriately influencing the investigation.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 14, 2018)

"Мой пенис больше, чем Чикаго"-- Путин


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 14, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> B - ‘There are a lot of other factors at play here and given certain circumstances, state sponsored election hacking isn’t that important to me.’


So, uh...


ThunderHorse said:


> Not really.  Is someone interfering in our elections something that should be punished? The answer is it depends.  What do we want from the Nation that chose to execute said interference?  If we want nothing? Punish them.  If we want something, well you want keep going: Oh the Russians, the Russians.



You know what country has some of the most beautiful, pristine, challenging rock climbing in the world? Afghanistan. 

IDGAF about security lines at the World Cup. I don’t really care that we mess with other people elections, either. That excuse is clown shoes. 

Until the President takes some action- diplomatic or otherwise- this is a beta-male belly showing foul against a guy that’s been eating his lunch. 

President Trump is Putin’s pocket holding lil punk.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 14, 2018)

Who's talking security lines at the WC? I'm talking about harassment by their Law Enforcement Apparatus.  

Fact is we have thousands of our fellow citizens choosing to visit a country that is not our enemy. This is egg on our face and nothing else, either pick ourselves up or continue dividing ourselves and continue being punk bitches about it.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 14, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> So, uh...
> 
> 
> You know what country has some of the most beautiful, pristine, challenging rock climbing in the world? Afghanistan.
> ...


Couldn't disagree more with you. One we don't know the full extent of the Russian hack, what we do know so far is that it was a hack on the DNC. Not the government, not the electoral system. But a political party. 

Saying "we do it is clown shoes" is skipping the argument, of why would we be upset at someone doing to us, what we do to them. If you go around stealing everyone's lunch money, and then one day it happens to you, you don't get to cry "OMG how could you" and ain't nobody gonna feel for you.

Wanting to have your cake and eat it too on the political spectrum is fine, but here in reality, you don't get to drag the group down because you are bent about your polotical party being hacked and the drama being released to the unwashed masses.

You have absolutely no proof that Trump is Putin's puppet, you are making inflammatory responses, because the conversation isn't going your way, or how you felt it should go. 

I love you bro, but I expect better out of you, the inflammatory non-factual, fuck with the group posts are my department! You are supposed to be the level headed, reasonable and educated fact bringer...😉


----------



## Blizzard (Jul 14, 2018)

AWP said:


> I expect the Soviets/ Russians to hack us to their advantage.
> 
> I do not expect our president to accept or profit from this to their advantage.
> 
> In other words, if this hand feeds you, great, but you to bite it like a rabid monkey at some point.


I generally fall into this camp as well.

I expect the Russians, Chinese, and every other country to attempt to hack us to their advantage; just as I expect us to do the same.

But here are my questions:

What is the definition of "influence" here?   Does it imply fraudulent votes being cast?  I don't see anyone making that claim.  They ran some ads?

So, the Russians hacked some accounts, etc.  Did those acts alone truly have any measurable impact on our elections?  If so, how?  What influence was truly leveled?

Let's suppose there was influence of some kind (again, what does this really mean).  Is this significantly different than Facebook, YouTube or (insert your social media site here) determining what articles or ads they will allow?  Don't late night talk show hosts also "influence" viewpoints?  We see the media carrying it's bias as well, not just with their op eds but even in the articles they run.  Isn't that a greater influence?  Where is that line drawn?

Due to our scale and global reach, economically and politically, everyone is a stakeholder in our elections; businesses, countries, individuals, etc.  As a result, many people and organizations try to influence that vote directly and indirectly - from Greenpeace and PETA to Mobil and the NRA.  But, in the end, only our citizens cast a vote.

Ultimately, casting a vote is tantamount to caveat emptor.  We hope voters pay attention to the candidates and issues, do their research, etc.  We hope votes are cast based on the ideals, issues, etc. that they value.  We hope that voters take their responsibility seriously.   That said, there is no requirement to do any of those things.  There is no intelligence minimum required to vote.  There is no requirement to be informed.  There is no requirement to vote.   As a result, there are countless ways voters can be "influenced".

So, at it's core, this argument really seems to be about whether people are either accountable for their actions or not.  If they come to a different conclusion than you or I, or the self anointed, does that mean they can't be trusted with such an important responsibility?  Maybe no one should get to run ads anymore.  Or, maybe, we just get the government we deserve?


----------



## Grunt (Jul 14, 2018)

Those who choose to remain willingly ignorant of the facts concerning those they support are to blame. I don't blame Russia, I blame the non-hackers who don't do their due diligence in knowing those they support or don't. I don't accept anything as gospel without doing a lot of research on it -- regardless of who the source is. People are lazy which leads to willful ignorance! They are way more to blame than Russia.


----------



## Topkick (Jul 14, 2018)

Topkick said:


> That, my friend, is a fair question.



To follow up on this question, I'd just say that any intervention in our election was before Trump was the sitting president. So, now that Trump is, do we just not seek world peace and good relations because of what happened then? That seems like a conservative approach and wouldn't a true progressive welcome change from how it's always been?


----------



## Dame (Jul 14, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> I still think that Russia was just trying to sow hate and discontent in the last election, and were just as surprised as the rest of the world was when President Trump won.


The original works too. LOL.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 14, 2018)

Topkick said:


> To follow up on this question, I'd just say that any intervention in our election was before Trump was the sitting president. So, now that Trump is, do we just not seek world peace and good relations because of what happened then? That seems like a conservative approach and wouldn't a true progressive welcome change from how it's always been?



Maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here,  but if you allow outside influence in the election once, you are establishing precedence. What you do afterwords in the name of world peace is bogus and b.s. If Trump colluded with Russia, he should be impeached. The toughest thing for this investigation is finding impartial agents to run it. The media has blown this up and the current political landscape makes finding these agents near impossible.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 14, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Do you think that the ‘war on radical Islamic terrorism’ is a more clear and present danger to the US than Russia is?



Yes, and I think China is a greater threat then Russia.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Jul 14, 2018)

As much as I *loathe *Putin and cronies, I find it deeply unsettling that I mistrust the Clinton's, DNC, and the MSM, just as much as the Kremlin (if not more). The Russians, vodka fueled mass murdering retards aside, basically pulled back the curtain and showed everyone how the sausage was being made by the DNC and accomplices. The irony of having Russians showcase the corruption behind the DNC and Clinton campaign is in itself mind-boggling.

Collusion or not, the country needed a change in leadership from the DC elite and got it. The swamp needs to drained and have it's denizens locked in concrete and glass exhibits.


----------



## CQB (Jul 15, 2018)

An interesting development for me, (though others may well be in the mix), was that Wikileaks, referred to as Organisation 1, requested the information from the Russian hackers & not as I thought was they who approached him (Assange). I guess if you're locked in a cupboard, you'd want to get even with the person who put you there. 

_"If you have anything hillary related we want it in the next tweo [sic] days perfable [sic] because the DNC [Democratic National Convention] is approaching and she will solidify bernie supporters behind her after." _

The quote is in the hard copy edition but I can't post a link as it's behind a paywall.


----------



## Topkick (Jul 15, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Maybe I'm not understanding what you're trying to say here,  but if you allow outside influence in the election once, you are establishing precedence. What you do afterwords in the name of world peace is bogus and b.s. If Trump colluded with Russia, he should be impeached. The toughest thing for this investigation is finding impartial agents to run it. The media has blown this up and the current political landscape makes finding these agents near impossible.


I guess I could've been more  clear. First there is still no real evidence that Trump colluded with Russia. If it comes about, there should and will be repercussions. If Russia interfered, that is something Trump will have to deal with but it's not his doing. No matter, we should always be seeking an end result of world peace and good relations. Or, do we throw our hands up and say, fuck it, Russia will always be our enemy?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 15, 2018)

The great outrage of yesterday on twitter was this stuff, Nate Silver pushed on a smart tweet about it: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1018292530692190208


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 15, 2018)

@Diamondback 2/2 , PM sent. 

The administration has painted themselves into a corner. President Trump has used the "witch hunt" schtick for so long in order to drive the narrative away from any personal wrong doing that there's no going back now. 

I guess I don't know what I expect- of course the White House won't talk about this issue and the President won't take any action. How could they? If the White House decided to condemn the cyber attacks then they give legitimacy to an investigation they've been running a coordinated and extensive IO campaign against. All that time undermining our justice department, the counsel, talking about fake news, character assassinations on any number of individuals; all for naught if they take action. AND it would alienate the base, heaven forbid.  

So, the President won't ask for extradition of those indicted, cause honestly, he just hadn't thought of it and it "puts him in a weak position". And really, it was the DNC's fault anyway for not having better defenses like the RNC did. 

The indictments don't matter because we do the same thing. 

Russia will continue to actively and repeatedly conduct cyber attacks on America; they're the most active and successful, even ahead of China. We have a chance to strike back publicly here and get a W and it looks like we aren't going to do that. That's a foul. Somehow this narrative includes partisan politics- Russia's main goal is to divide the nation, hurt our democracy (successful so far by way of the election) and weaken us on the international stage. Russia is succeeding in their main goal on this one. 

The President is weak on cybercrime and Russia. He's in over his head in a room with Putin. He's grossly mishandled the Russian interference in our election and continues to do so for whatever reason.


----------



## Poccington (Jul 15, 2018)

Seriously, people should read the indictment.

- A US citizen, running for Congress, contacted Guccifer 2.0 requesting dirt on their opponent... And recieved it. 
- Roger Stone, a man who was in contact with high level members of the Trump Campaign, was talking to Guccifer 2.0.
- Wikileaks and Guccifer 2.0 were talking and actively coordinating on when to drop data bombs.
- The Russians hacked a State Board Of Elections and stole the personal data on roughly 500,000 voters.
- The Russians hacked a US company which sells voter registration software and then sent spear fishing emails to over 100 election administrators in Florida districts.

The indictment lays out how the interference in 2016 wasn't just a campaign by Russia to influence voters or generally cause mayhem through their info campaigns. It involved multiple attempts to get inside voting infrastructure in the US.

The Mueller investigation into that interference can't be called a "Witch Hunt" when he keeps finding witches.


----------



## Poccington (Jul 15, 2018)

Centermass said:


> After watching his testimony (Coupled with the content of his text messages) I'm not buying it for a second. And when you're in a position such as this, oft times, you can influence things with WHAT YOU DON'T DO as well.
> 
> Based on how long this entire shit show has taken, I am beginning to seriously doubt him, or anyone else for that matter, will be prosecuted.
> 
> ...



What didn't he do though?

Like I said previously, new facts may come to light that change things but as it stands... He was the FBI agent pushing to investigate Clinton more aggressively and kept his mouth shut when he was fully aware of the fact that members of the Trump Campaign were being investigated for possible collusion with Russia.

Those are two glaring issues where if his work was truly influenced by his political beliefs, he'd have acted in the completely opposite manner.



ThunderHorse said:


> Yeah, uh, not believing that horse manure one bit.



Excellent, thoughtful, rational and well structured attempt at discussion. 



CQB said:


> An interesting development for me, (though others may well be in the mix), was that Wikileaks, referred to as Organisation 1, requested the information from the Russian hackers & not as I thought was they who approached him (Assange). I guess if you're locked in a cupboard, you'd want to get even with the person who put you there.
> 
> _"If you have anything hillary related we want it in the next tweo [sic] days perfable [sic] because the DNC [Democratic National Convention] is approaching and she will solidify bernie supporters behind her after." _
> 
> The quote is in the hard copy edition but I can't post a link as it's behind a paywall.



Julian Assange has got to be sweating bullets right now.

The Ecuadorians are getting quite vocal about kicking him out of their embassy and Mueller has made it crystal clear that he has proof Wikileaks were in the thick of it with the Russians in 2016. I'm sure the Brits would be more than happy to take him into custody and ensure he gets on a flight back to the US.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 15, 2018)




----------



## Devildoc (Jul 16, 2018)

Poccington said:


> The Mueller investigation into that interference can't be called a "Witch Hunt" when he keeps finding witches.



If Mueller was investigating Russian interference in US elections and Russian influence, he'd be scoring.  If Mueller has spent a year investigating "Trump campaign collusion" and has so far largely bupkis except for some peripheral players, then what can we assume?


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 16, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> If Mueller was investigating Russian interference in US elections and Russian influence, he'd be scoring.  If Mueller has spent a year investigating "Trump campaign collusion" and has so far largely bupkis except for some peripheral players, then what can we assume?


That Russia committed a successful state sponsored cyber attack to undermine our democratic election process?

I wouldn’t call the indictments ‘bupkis’, nor would I call the sum of all those indictments ‘bupkis’.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 16, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> That Russia committed a successful state sponsored cyber attack to undermine our democratic election process?
> 
> I wouldn’t call the indictments ‘bupkis’, nor would I call the sum of all those indictments ‘bupkis’.



The one thing I don't understand is why Putin no longer likes Hillary?

Syria?

The amount of money Russians threw at the foundation is substantial, to suddenly throw her under the bus puzzles me.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 16, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> The one thing I don't understand is why Putin no longer likes Hillary?
> 
> Syria?
> 
> The amount of money Russians threw at the foundation is substantial, to suddenly throw her under the bus puzzles me.


That’s a really good question and it’s one I can’t even begin to guess. 

Maybe they saw an opportunity for the most divisive choice? No idea. 

Random shower thought- if Russia hacking the DNC during the election was a good thing because it exposed the evils of the DNC, the Clinton’s, and the ‘rigged election system’, why doesn’t the Mueller investigation get the exact same treatment? 

If there was no collusion, but in the end we exposed a much bigger problem with more than 15 indictments, more coming, etc- why isn’t that a good thing?


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 16, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> That Russia committed a successful state sponsored cyber attack to undermine our democratic election process?
> 
> I wouldn’t call the indictments ‘bupkis’, nor would I call the sum of all those indictments ‘bupkis’.



That Russia committed a successful state-sponsored cyber attack to undermine our democratic election process is no bueno, should be investigated, with a subsequent dropping of the hammer (though the indictments are stupid and a waste of time and money).  I do wish Trump et al., would be harsher in that respect.  Hold them accountable.  I don't think it was a DNC thing or a Trump thing or a GOP thing, it was a Russia thing.

The indictments Mueller has handed out with regard to the Trump campaign collusion is tantamount to wanting to stop a speeding car knowingly carrying trafficked persons and carrying a cache of illegal guns and coke but actually charging for 10 over the speed limit.

I will allow that if Trump has any knowledge of collusion then he has demonstrated he has so many levels of firewalls _so far_ that linking _him_ to collusion is still a fairy tale...


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 16, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> If there was no collusion, but in the end we exposed a much bigger problem with more than 15 indictments, more coming, etc- why isn’t that a good thing?



I think that would be a good thing.  Maybe it's time to broaden the scope of the investigation instead of honing on Trump.  I really think the Trump collusion thing is going to be the left's version of Obama's birth certificate....


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 16, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> The one thing I don't understand is why Putin no longer likes Hillary?
> 
> Syria?
> 
> The amount of money Russians threw at the foundation is substantial, to suddenly throw her under the bus puzzles me.



If anything Hillary was probably better for Putin because she was bought and paid for...but nooo, Trump had to have colluded...



Devildoc said:


> I think that would be a good thing.  Maybe it's time to broaden the scope of the investigation instead of honing on Trump.  I really think the Trump collusion thing is going to be the left's version of Obama's birth certificate....



I think it already is, which is what I've been trying to get at.  But not so eloquently, obviously!


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 16, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> If anything Hillary was probably better for Putin because she was bought and paid for...but nooo, Trump had to have colluded...


Those two things are not mutually exclusive; they could both be true. 

I don't really know what to say about the press conference from today. Most of the fare I am seeing is of the breathless variety.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 16, 2018)

I don't know why anyone would have expected different remarks based on the fact that the summit was meant to smooth over our current relations and get some type of partnership towards combating a mutual enemy.


----------



## Poccington (Jul 16, 2018)

https://t.co/GOBYJkqILl?amp=1

Maria Butina charged with acting as an agent of the Russian Federation in the US in the buildup to the 2016 election.

She's accused of among other things, attempting to use the NRA as a cover to setup a back channel between the Kremlin and key members of the GOP.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 16, 2018)

Poccington said:


> https://t.co/GOBYJkqILl?amp=1
> 
> Maria Butina charged with acting as an agent of the Russian Federation in the US in the buildup to the 2016 election.
> 
> She's accused of among other things, attempting to use the NRA as a cover to setup a back channel between the Kremlin and key members of the GOP.


----------



## Blizzard (Jul 17, 2018)

Seems some are jumping on this now like it's the new Stormy Daniel's (not literally jumping on her, although that's clearly been done as well). Is that it? This is going to be the "gotcha" for the President? For real this time?  Should I hold my breath?

It's difficult to determine if it's hope or outrage with some.


----------



## CQB (Jul 17, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> The one thing I don't understand is why Putin no longer likes Hillary?
> 
> Syria?
> 
> The amount of money Russians threw at the foundation is substantial, to suddenly throw her under the bus puzzles me.



It's an each way bet, nothing more. Persons seeking influence will always put money on both horses. One wins, one loses.


----------



## compforce (Jul 17, 2018)

amlove21 said:


>



So....you're saying that, if Maria weighs the same as a duck she's made out of wood and therefore acted as an agent of the Russian Federation?


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 17, 2018)

Blizzard said:


> Seems some are jumping on this now like it's the new Stormy Daniel's (not literally jumping on her, although that's clearly been done as well). Is that it? This is going to be the "gotcha" for the President? For real this time?  Should I hold my breath?
> 
> It's difficult to determine if it's hope or outrage with some.


That’s the beauty of this administration! 

They’ve downplayed and subverted literally every scandal; couple that with MSM treating my every misstep likenthe end of the world and voila! You’re not real sure what’s actually bad. 

I just watch Fox News. If they don’t mention it? Bad. If they actually come out against it?? REAL bad. 

Can you find anyone saying ‘he did great here!’ (Other than Rand Paul)?


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 17, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> That’s the beauty of this administration!
> 
> They’ve downplayed and subverted literally every scandal; couple that with MSM treating my every misstep likenthe end of the world and voila! You’re not real sure what’s actually bad.
> 
> ...



In general, or this specifically?  'Cause this is an issue.  One of the best economies ever, a lot going right, I think a lot of democrats are avoiding these high-water marks to their peril.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 17, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> In general, or this specifically?  'Cause this is an issue.  One of the best economies ever, a lot going right, I think a lot of democrats are avoiding these high-water marks to their peril.


Specifically the press conference and the handling of the Russian interference. 

There are plenty of good things to point out going right, as I’ve said many times before. 


There’s an E6 that works for me. Antiestablishment alll the way. Hair just a bit too long, can’t just be ‘boring’ and wear a uniform,always has some sort of Jon standard shit on. Hates ‘big blue’ Air Force. No better PJ on target; I’ve been his supervisor most of his career and he just can’t be bothered to play the ‘day to day’ military game. That’s all good but he’s an E6 Team Sgt now and those admin skills- writing, budget, interpersonal interactions with other AFSCs- sometimes escape him because he doesn’t care. 

President Trump is like that. When he’s on target? Not too bad. Borderline great. 

But when you insist on stepping al over your own dick all the time for no good reason, people forget how good you are on target because on target is 5% of the time. He needs to play the game. Take some advice. Don’t be contrarian and ‘the outsider’ just or the sake of being those things even if it’s who he is ‘as a person’. The job and the country deserve someone who doesn’t act like that. 


And to @Blizzard ‘s point- this is an *actual* fuck up; not like just fucking porn stars when you’re married and paying them hush money or hiding your finances or saying an active President wasn’t born here or being a compulsive liar or talking about grabbing girls by the genitals or being unable to stop talking about an election 2 years ago or being a world class asshole to work for or whatever. 

Like I said before the meeting ever happened, this administration is weak on Russia. President Trump is especially weak and, worse than that, excessively deferential to Putin and has gotten his ass handed to him.


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 17, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Specifically the press conference and the handling of the Russian interference.
> 
> Like I said before the meeting ever happened, this administration is weak on Russia. President Trump is especially weak and, worse than that, excessively deferential to Putin and has gotten his ass handed to him.



Gotcha.  Didn't understand context.

_Every_ administration is weak on Russia, something I never really understood.  Fair, I understand, but weak, no.  Per my comments in the Trump presidency thread I am confounded by his behavior.

Edited to add, it's hard to separate the shit from the shinola when you get the media storm like he has gotten, especially yesterday.  Brennan flipped his lid, called Trump a traitor.  It was under Brennan's watch when all of this (Russian interference) was going down, so someone, somewhere, needs to slow their roll and let things play out before throwing rocks in glass houses.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 17, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Gotcha.  Didn't understand context.
> 
> _Every_ administration is weak on Russia, something I never really understood.  Fair, I understand, but weak, no.  Per my comments in the Trump presidency thread I am confounded by his behavior.
> 
> Edited to add, it's hard to separate the shit from the shinola when you get the media storm like he has gotten, especially yesterday.  Brennan flipped his lid, called Trump a traitor.  It was under Brennan's watch when all of this (Russian interference) was going down, so someone, somewhere, needs to slow their roll and let things play out before throwing rocks in glass houses.


Well, I don’t necessarily think that’s true and that’s dangerous thinking. We do it a lot, all of us, here and IRL. 

We want the economy to stand on it’s own and say what a good job President Trump has done, but we don’t want to acknowledge the previous administration for getting us trough the recession and laying groundwork to get here. However, just like the President has done/continues to do, we will sit here and say ‘Not our fault; happened on someone else’s watch.’ when the press isn’t good or the optics aren’t favorable. Yeah, that’s politics and everyone does it, but it’s still wrong and it doesn’t mean you don’t call it how you see it. 

Other administrations are other administrations. I want *this* administration to be tough on attacks against America. Unless I am missing something, they’ve been demonstratably weaker than every other administration, at least in recent times. Even worse, they’re throwing our own intistitutions under the bus on an international stage. Call it whatever ‘T’ word you want, the fact remains. What damage has President Trump done- and I’m talking lasting damage- to the intelligence community? 

Also, Dan Coats was a Trump appointee was he not? Is that a good precedent to set?


----------



## SpitfireV (Jul 17, 2018)

Personally I don't think credit or blame for an economy can be given until five to ten years down the track.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 17, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> Personally I don't think credit or blame for an economy can be given until five to ten years down the track.


I’m no economist and I don’t want to take away some of the deregulation steps that no doubt had positive short term effects, but I think there is some amount of credit any first term president has to give to the previous administration until they get into that 4-6 year period (if re-elected).


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 17, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Well, I don’t necessarily think that’s true and that’s dangerous thinking. We do it a lot, all of us, here and IRL.
> 
> We want the economy to stand on it’s own and say what a good job President Trump has done, but we don’t want to acknowledge the previous administration for getting us trough the recession and laying groundwork to get here. However, just like the President has done/continues to do, we will sit here and say ‘Not our fault; happened on someone else’s watch.’ when the press isn’t good or the optics aren’t favorable. Yeah, that’s politics and everyone does it, but it’s still wrong and it doesn’t mean you don’t call it how you see it.
> 
> ...



I am all for calling it as I see it, but I will also point out the hypocrisy and bullshit that gets flung far and wide when others disavow any part in contributing to the problem.  As you say, "it's still wrong...."

As far as Trump's toughness on Russia, generally I agree, _but_...booting Russians and PNGing them, continuing sanctions, putting in new sanctions, it's not as if he is totally laissez faire...  which is why I find some of his behavior confounding.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 17, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> As far as Trump's toughness on Russia, generally I agree, _but_...booting Russians and PNGing them, continuing sanctions, putting in new sanctions, it's not as if he is totally laissez faire...  which is why I find some of his behavior confounding.


Yeah that’s thing I don’t get. We are already have sanctions in place, it would have been as simple as saying, “I asked Putin; he said he didn’t, ournintelligence community disagrees. We can’t have that anymore if we want a good relationship; and I want a good relationship.”

I should be a speech writer for the President. I literally just came up with that!


----------



## SpitfireV (Jul 17, 2018)

A speechwriter for Trump seems as useful as a medical ethics advisor on MK Ultra.


----------



## Box (Jul 17, 2018)

I don't think the POTUS really has "speech writers" -  I think he just has folks on the payroll that draw up talking points and then sit around looking at each other wondering, "WTF did he just say?"

I'd say if there were some speechwriters responsible for that presser, they should be keelhauled for playing into the interference theme.   

I'm generally a pretty unapologetic Trump supporter simply because I am fed up with generations of the same old kabuki theater - but constantly letting the media goad you into the same nonsense over and over again just fuels the fire.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Jul 17, 2018)

Box said:


> I don't think the POTUS really has "speech writers" -  I think he just has folks on the payroll that draw up talking points and then sit around looking at each other wondering, "WTF did he just say?"
> 
> I'd say if there were some speechwriters responsible for that presser, they should be keelhauled for playing into the interference theme.
> 
> I'm generally a pretty unapologetic Trump supporter simply because I am fed up with generations of the same old kabuki theater - but constantly letting the media goad you into the same nonsense over and over again just fuels the fire.


I'd like to think that he troll's the media and it's political/corporate sponsors. Would have paid see the unhinged expressions of the DNC brass and Clintons after that presser though.


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 17, 2018)

Box said:


> I'm generally a pretty unapologetic Trump supporter simply because I am fed up with generations of the same old kabuki theater - but constantly letting the media goad you into the same nonsense over and over again just fuels the fire.



If he stopped being so reactionary and limited his twitter his approval rating would go up.  Still, his approval rating is as high as it's been since the first couple months after his election.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 17, 2018)

Trumps Twitter account is the most retarded shit ever, id expected better out of 13 year old girl.

The Trump/Putin press conference was appalling to say the least. Not sure what to make out of that, but the hack should have been called what it was. Whether or not it was state sponsored or not is up for investigation, but both Putin and Trump could have said yeah "it appears some Russian citizens have conducted some hacking on the DNC, we are working jointly to investigate and determine if criminal prosecutions are warranted". Then Putin could have reaffirmed that the hack was not state sponsored, etc. Both get to save face and move forward.

Instead, Trump throws the Intel community under the bus. Treason? No, but still a shitty thing to do. I don't blame Trumps attitude towards the FBI Intel side right now, they have obviously stepped on their dicks with the Trump campaign investigation, but goddamnit that was a few at the upper level of the FBI,  not the FBI as a whole, and surly not the Intel community as a whole.

Trump looked pretty weak sauce up there with Putin. Not really sure what to think about that right now.

That said, I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of Miss Pages testimony, sounds like she is about to toss her ex boyfriend under the bus...


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 17, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> That said, I'm looking forward to seeing what comes out of Miss Pages testimony, sounds like she is about to toss her ex boyfriend u see the bus...



I read "she was eager and fully willing to testify."  I stand by, curious.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 17, 2018)

Ya done dicked-the-dog on this one, Mr. President.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 18, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> I read "she was eager and fully willing to testify."  I stand by, curious.


“In many cases, she admits that the text messages mean exactly what they say, as opposed to Agent Strzok, who thinks that we've all misinterpreted his own words on any text message that might be negative,” Ratcliff told reporters. 

Lisa Page Gave Significantly Different Testimony Than Peter Stzrok, Congressman Says


----------



## Box (Jul 18, 2018)

It seems that much of the continued jackassery is based over the blurred lines of out come 
...are the actions of third party Russian actors the reason that the current POTUS is in office
...are the actions of third party Russian actors consistent with what Russian agents have been doing for decades

It would seem like most would agree that the current POTUS has an ego that just barely fits inside of Air Force-1.  As a result, it is clear that he goes to ridiculous lengths to make sure ANY discussion on this topic is immediately tied to "no collusion" as his way of declaring his legitimacy as POTUS.   It seems that many on the left have a hard time discussing that same topic without allowing the suggestion that "collusion collusion collusion" and as a result, Russian interference has gone from a recurring problem that has been ignored as common and annoying in the past, and it has turned into a divisive, circular discussion that will probably never be resolved.  

I am just curious - wildly curious - to find examples of people (citizens as well as members of the electoral college) that can explain the tipping point when they went from "ready to vote for Hillary" and changed their mind to vote for Trump based on these propaganda posted by Russian actors.  People that saw the same media coverage of Trump proclaiming his love of grabbing women by the P#$$% - coverage of Trumps lawsuits over Trump steaks and Trump University, and Trumps general portrayal in the news as everything that flies in the face of American values.  The same Trump that is so loathsome that a supreme court justice said she would move to New Zealand if he won.
...and yet some fake-news Facebook posts and a renegade twitter-feed somehow countered ALL of that bad press and gifted the office to Trump by fooling MILLIONS of Americans into voting for Trump.

It is deeply troubling to watch how willingly Americans on both sides of the aisle have taken to this new-wave reality TV politics. 
- we have congress women urging people to openly and publicly harass political opponents in the streets - in public -at their homes.
- we have former leaders of the federal law enforcement and intelligence agencies OPENLY inciting people to rebel and resist the administration
- we have  former leaders of the federal law enforcement and intelligence agencies admit that they have leaked info and acted poorly


But hey - it is certainly entertaining to watch


----------



## CQB (Jul 18, 2018)

It’s all the Dems have really, this toxic info war, as they have no credible leader or alternative.


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## amlove21 (Jul 18, 2018)

Here is a very good breakdown on what we know about Russian hacking in very clear terms. 

It answers all types of questions about "how", and "why", and "What was the real impact".


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## Devildoc (Jul 20, 2018)

Does Lisa Page's claims and comments hold water?  According to her the sense was there was no evidence re: collusion.

Opinion: One FBI text message in Russia probe that should alarm every American


----------



## Gunz (Jul 20, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Here is a very good breakdown on what we know about Russian hacking in very clear terms.
> 
> It answers all types of questions about "how", and "why", and "What was the real impact".




Faith and begorrah, even the IRA got involved.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2018)

UPDATE!

Russia meddled in our elections, is continuing to do so, and now may be helping the Dems during mid terms. 

Uh, ok?


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 24, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> UPDATE!
> 
> Russia meddled in our elections, is continuing to do so, and now may be helping the Dems during mid terms.
> 
> Uh, ok?


“Reservation for Scapegoat, party of many...”


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> “Reservation for Scapegoat, party of many...”


For sure. The most blatant setup for, "Not my fault we did so poorly in the midterms" (news flash- the party controlling the WH almost always does really poorly in mid terms). 

It does set up the potential for the R's to do well and then the President can tout his increased "toughness" on Russia and cybersecurity. 

Really a win-win as long as you don't have to you know, acknowledge reality.


----------



## Poccington (Jul 24, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> UPDATE!
> 
> Russia meddled in our elections, is continuing to do so, and now may be helping the Dems during mid terms.
> 
> Uh, ok?



I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's seen polling figures that don't look too good for the mid terms.

This nonsense is no different than his antics toward the end of the 2016 eelction... Remember his claims that the election was rigged? How they'd only accept the election result if he won? 

Get the conspiracy theories going early, energise the base and so on and so forth.


----------



## SpitfireV (Jul 24, 2018)

Malinka moya.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2018)

Poccington said:


> I'm gonna go out on a limb and say he's seen polling figures that don't look too good for the mid terms.
> 
> This nonsense is no different than his antics toward the end of the 2016 eelction... Remember his claims that the election was rigged? How they'd only accept the election result if he won?
> 
> Get the conspiracy theories going early, energise the base and so on and so forth.


It's why harsh reporting is "fake news" and why he had to pretend to be his own publicist in the 80's and 90's- he can't bear to lose. His ego is much too fragile. 

Gotta set up those excuses early so you can protect yourself later.


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 24, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> It's why harsh reporting is "fake news" and why he had to pretend to be his own publicist in the 80's and 90's- he can't bear to lose. His ego is much too fragile.
> 
> Gotta set up those excuses early so you can protect yourself later.



Weeeeelllll....it was almost the entirety of the MSM that reported he was gonna lose "bigly".  He's got a bit of a right to not trust what they say re: elections.  But you are right, it can put him into a win-win situation later on.


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 24, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> Malinka moya.



Is that like "kumbaya?"  Or "mele kalikimaka"?  Or "hakuna matata"?


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 24, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> For sure. The most blatant setup for, "Not my fault we did so poorly in the midterms" (news flash- the party controlling the WH almost always does really poorly in mid terms).
> 
> It does set up the potential for the R's to do well and then the President can tout his increased "toughness" on Russia and cybersecurity.
> 
> Really a win-win as long as you don't have to you know, acknowledge reality.



The dems are in a pickle.  Historically, they _should_ win.  But right now the DNC has no message: its' soul is being lured by the likes of Ocasio-Cortez and Sanders who have a message, but one that is cray-cray.  The rest of the democrats can't get past Trump derangement to pull themselves together, unless "...but Trump" _is _their message.

If the GOP wins, it'll be because of the dems plus a strong economy.  If the dems win, it'll be on immigration and Russia Russia Russia.  But I don't think the dems can pull themselves together.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Weeeeelllll....it was almost the entirety of the MSM that reported he was gonna lose "bigly".  He's got a bit of a right to not trust what they say re: elections.  But you are right, it can put him into a win-win situation later on.


What who says? What do you mean? We have been able to fact check this President FAR more unfavorably than any other President in recent history- he misspeaks, and outright lies and then categorizes anyone who publicizes that as, "fake news". We just saw it with the British Prime Minister like, a week ago. 

He can not trust them all he wants; just because he gets his feelings hurt doesn't mean it's fake. He does that to protect his ego. 

It's why he's prepared for the dems to win during midterms by already casting doubt on the legitimacy of the election, so he can avoid the reality that his party might not win "bigly".


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 24, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> What who says? What do you mean? We have been able to fact check this President FAR more unfavorably than any other President in recent history- he misspeaks, and outright lies and then categorizes anyone who publicizes that as, "fake news". We just saw it with the British Prime Minister like, a week ago.
> 
> He can not trust them all he wants; just because he gets his feelings hurt doesn't mean it's fake. He does that to protect his ego.
> 
> It's why he's prepared for the dems to win during midterms by already casting doubt on the legitimacy of the election, so he can avoid the reality that his party might not win "bigly".



Did any of the MSM, or any other media, call the election for him?  No.  I am not defending his POV, but regarding elections and only elections, if they for months had been telling America he wasn't going to win, and he wins, I can see why he would not trust them.  The dems might win in November.  But you can't say that if we know now the Russians may continue to be meddling and the dems win, there isn't a shadow of doubt.  Same logic exists with the argument that if the Russians were meddling in 2016, there is a shadow of doubt.


----------



## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Did any of the MSM, or any other media, call the election for him?  No.  I am not defending his POV, but regarding elections and only elections, if they for months had been telling America he wasn't going to win, and he wins, I can see why he would not trust them.  The dems might win in November.  But you can't say that if we know now the Russians may continue to be meddling and the dems win, there isn't a shadow of doubt.  Same logic exists with the argument that if the Russians were meddling in 2016, there is a shadow of doubt.


Ok, I am saying that he acts like an immature child that's prone to lying to protect his ego. 

Use, instead, the example of the time he pretended to be his own publicist on the phone (pick your own adventure/source) to brag about women and his success after receiving some bad press. Was that the tabloid's fault for mistreating him? Saying he wasn't worth what he said he was? Nope. He got bad press, he lied about who he was to protect himself.

I am saying; "This is President Donald Trump's m.o., and has been for a while. He protects his ego by lashing out." 

It has nothing to do with the MSM or people not believing him or whatever; that's just who he is.


----------



## SpitfireV (Jul 24, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Is that like "kumbaya?"  Or "mele kalikimaka"?  Or "hakuna matata"?



Ha! It's from Kalinka, it just means "my little raspberry."


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 24, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> ...
> 
> I am saying; "This is President Donald Trump's m.o., and has been for a while. He protects his ego by lashing out."
> 
> ..



^I think this is a 100% true statement.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 24, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Here is a very good breakdown on what we know about Russian hacking in very clear terms.
> 
> It answers all types of questions about "how", and "why", and "What was the real impact".



Interesting read.  Particularly this part:  the Russian intent was to 



> “spread distrust towards the candidates and the political system in general.”



I think people forget that the Russians tried to hack the Republicans as well.  They just weren't successful (or at least weren't as successful).  And they didn't need to; the media in this country was leaking things about Candidate Trump as fast as they could find them (or, in the case of the Russia dossier, simply make them up).

So, the Trump campaign had the Russian political, media, and intelligence infrastructure helping him, and Clinton had the American political, media, and intelligence infrastructure helping her.  Like I said:  interesting.


----------



## Devildoc (Jul 25, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Ok, I am saying that he acts like an immature child that's prone to lying to protect his ego.
> 
> Use, instead, the example of the time he pretended to be his own publicist on the phone (pick your own adventure/source) to brag about women and his success after receiving some bad press. Was that the tabloid's fault for mistreating him? Saying he wasn't worth what he said he was? Nope. He got bad press, he lied about who he was to protect himself.
> 
> ...



Yup


----------



## Centermass (Aug 4, 2018)

Geezus. No problem. Ignore it and it will just go away.

No bias here. 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





May, 2016. Look at the classification.


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Aug 4, 2018)

If only the FBI put as much energy into punishing Hillary as they did into hunting down that pesky McDonald's Millionaire Bandit.....


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 4, 2018)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> If only the FBI put as much energy into punishing Hillary as they did into hunting down that pesky McDonald's Millionaire Bandit.....



I don't want to turn this in a HRC spin-off, but her soft "investigation" was entirely political, not investigatory, much less looking into any criminal wrongdoing.


----------



## Poccington (Sep 14, 2018)

Manafort has secured a plea deal and has agreed to cooperate with the Special Counsels investigation. 

Mueller continues to drain the swamp.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 14, 2018)

Still hasn't found any evidence of collusion. I'm willing to bet you could find all these charges with plenty of others in Washington on both sides of the aisle.


----------



## Poccington (Sep 14, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Still hasn't found any evidence of collusion. I'm willing to bet you could find all these charges with plenty of others in Washington on both sides of the aisle.



Let's be honest, nobody knows what Mueller has evidence of.


----------



## racing_kitty (Sep 14, 2018)

Poccington said:


> Let's be honest, nobody knows what Mueller has evidence of.



After Mueller's command performance in handling the anthrax investigations in the early 2000's, I'm not sure it matters what Mueller has evidence of, and he doesn't care if it's real or not.  He's going to do what he's going to do, and he's going to get away with all the dirty pool he can play.


----------



## amlove21 (Sep 16, 2018)

Manafort flipping to avoid the second trial is a problem. 

1, because loyalty is paramount to the president and Manafort has now ran afoul of that loyalty. All those tweets talking about how strong Manafort was and how he wouldn’t flip... uh oh. Tweet storm on the horizon. 

2, if Manafort has something worthy of a deal... uh oh. He already took 8 charges and jail time! Why wouldn’t he just take a couple more L’s and call it good? 

As always, my favorite narrative so far is the ‘no collusion yet!!’ I don’t even care anymore about if the Trump admin clactovely colluded with the Russians. I mean, they definitely did a bunch of ‘everybody does it’ things, so what. Punish them all. Everyone wants the swamp drained? Cool. It’s happening in this investigation. Politicians that are doing politician shit no one agrees with are getting charged for doing it. 

At this point, if you’re not rooting Mueller on and applauding him every time he uncovers more corruption and punishes it, I would question if you want politics to change or not.


----------



## Devildoc (Sep 16, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> As always, my favorite narrative so far is the ‘no collusion yet!!’ I don’t even care anymore about if the Trump admin clactovely colluded with the Russians. I mean, they definitely did a bunch of ‘everybody does it’ things, so what. Punish them all. Everyone wants the swamp drained? Cool. It’s happening in this investigation. Politicians that are doing politician shit no one agrees with are getting charged for doing it.
> 
> At this point, if you’re not rooting Mueller on and applauding him every time he uncovers more corruption and punishes it, I would question if you want politics to change or not.



The problem with Mueller, is he is hell-bent on prosecuting a case which is been essentially proven to have been a sham case to begin with.  He should have been saying, in light of all this evidence about the FISA court and whatnot, let's take a step back and take a look.

I mean, I guess it's a good thing he's uncovering crimes that occurred well before Trump took office. Any crime exposed is a good thing I suppose.

Mueller (and DOJ) is interested in one thing, and that is Mueller.


----------



## racing_kitty (Sep 16, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Manafort flipping to avoid the second trial is a problem.
> 
> 1, because loyalty is paramount to the president and Manafort has now ran afoul of that loyalty. All those tweets talking about how strong Manafort was and how he wouldn’t flip... uh oh. Tweet storm on the horizon.
> 
> ...


Just because I’m not masturbating fervently to a picture of Pope Mueller I, then I’m all in favor of the status quo? That’s funny enough to get a two-hour special on Netflix.

If you had any inkling of his ineptitude in his handling of the anthrax investigation, which was a real hum-dinger, you’d have already been asking for a different special counsel. Couple that with reading Harvey Slivergate’s recollections of dealing with Mueller, and that true Scotsman you have in your fantasy election lineup would be demanding a new special counsel out of hand.

As such, you’re just the rah-rah squad for your chosen criminal to take down the outside criminals. Your post is garbage.


----------



## BlackSmokeRisinG (Sep 16, 2018)

^AmL21 is correct in that we should be applauding any behind closed doors shadyness gets exposed, especially since the vast majority of us on here are former enlisted, and we _had _to play by all the rules or we got hung.

This administration is supposed to be for the people, and actively draining the swamp. I don't see how anyone cares if the President's former lawyer paid off some porn star he screwed, or any other woman. I don't see an collusion either.  However, if *NOBODY *is to get special treatment, *NOBODY *should get special treatment.

However, there is not one single politician you can name that has a better chance of actually draining the swamp that President Trump.


----------



## Kheenbish (Sep 16, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> At this point, if you’re not rooting Mueller on and applauding him every time he uncovers more corruption and punishes it, I would question if you want politics to change or not.



You could also argue though that if you're not actively pointing out that it has only been Republicans under investigation and charged you only want politics to shift to the other side. 

I don't think people have a problem with politicians being charged with anything illegal, just if Mueller is to continue his investigation I hope it extends to both sides of the aisle.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Sep 16, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Manafort flipping to avoid the second trial is a problem.
> 
> 1, because loyalty is paramount to the president and Manafort has now ran afoul of that loyalty. All those tweets talking about how strong Manafort was and how he wouldn’t flip... uh oh. Tweet storm on the horizon.
> 
> ...


Random question, you may term this ad hominem, idk.  But if we're not putting Hills in jail for violating federal laws as it pertains to servers and such, and we're not putting Kerry in jail for trying to play Shadow politician in Iran...wtf are we doing?

I'm glad we're cleaning up some white collar crime and all, but, all I'm seeing is something that is continuing to divide this country...as if it needed anymore division.


----------



## BloodStripe (Sep 16, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> Manafort flipping to avoid the second trial is a problem.
> 
> 1, because loyalty is paramount to the president and Manafort has now ran afoul of that loyalty. All those tweets talking about how strong Manafort was and how he wouldn’t flip... uh oh. Tweet storm on the horizon.
> 
> ...



Let's drain the swamp then. Let's investigate every swinging dick and tit. Funny, not really,  that nearly every person in Congress is a millionaire nowadays. You don't get that kind of wealth solely by being a civil servant.

ETA: I'm willing an easy charge to get them all on would be falsifying their OGE 450.


----------



## amlove21 (Sep 16, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Let's drain the swamp then. Let's investigate every swinging dick and tit. Funny, not really,  that nearly every person in Congress is a millionaire nowadays. You don't get that kind of wealth solely by being a civil servant.


Exactly, and I agree.


----------



## amlove21 (Sep 16, 2018)

@BlackSmokeRisinG @Kheenbish @DocIllinois @ThunderHorse I agree with everything you guys said. And TH, no ad hom at all it’s a fair question. 

I am purely of the mind that any process- literally the ends of corruption and crimes being uncovered in Washington in any form or fashion is good- like the Meuller investigation is good for the country. This is the one time I am ALL about some ‘whattaboutism’. 

Hillary committed crimes? Bury her under the jail. Bill too. And the Podestas. And the Awan brothers. And Donald Rumsfeld, and every other person that ever hurt America with their personal interest in mind. John Kerry should be fucking stripped of everything right now. Why does he have a security clearance? Isn’t that a punishment for people like him??

I don’t care about political affiliation at all- that’s the entire point of my post- I don’t care if you dont like Mueller. He might be the worst guy for the job right now. He’s getting convictions and hopefully many more follow AND set precedent to prevent future incidences of that behavior. Maybe it’ll work in the long run. Oh, and by the way, if you’re pissed that more blatant criminals aren’t being tried, I suggest starting with the guy that said he was gonna lock those criminals up. 



racing_kitty said:


> As such, you’re just the rah-rah squad for your chosen criminal to take down the outside criminals. Your post is garbage.


Well, that’s ok because I don’t value your opinion on this one. Feel free to PM me if you want to discuss further.


----------



## Box (Sep 16, 2018)

all good discussion - but this "clean up" is little more than a partisan display of kabuki theater
at best it is a bipartisan display of virtue signaling in the name of good kabuki theater
otherwise, the prisons would be filling up with politicians from both sides of the aisle so fast that none of us would be able to keep score


----------



## amlove21 (Sep 16, 2018)

Box said:


> all good discussion - but this "clean up" is little more than a partisan display of kabuki theater
> at best it is a bipartisan display of virtue signaling in the name of good kabuki theater
> otherwise, the prisons would be filling up with politicians from both sides of the aisle so fast that none of us would be able to keep score


@Box you’re right, but I hope the second part happens. 

Screw the ‘civil war 2’ talk. No one wants that. 

But maybe if this dumpster fire gets us to ‘framer level goals for politics in America’? I’ll take it. 

Call me an idealist.


----------



## Cookie_ (Sep 17, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> @Box you’re right, but I hope the second part happens.
> 
> Screw the ‘civil war 2’ talk. No one wants that.
> 
> ...



Our political system would work much better if we changed lobbying laws and got rid of corporate political contributions, but I just don't see that happening without drastic changes neither party will support.


----------



## SpitfireV (Sep 17, 2018)

I think it's fair to ask why others haven't been investigated. I don't think it's fair to ask why this investigation isn't doing it, though. That should be for other, independent, investigations to handle if only because it would widen the scope of the original far too widely and it would end up being unproductive.


----------



## Poccington (Sep 17, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> @BlackSmokeRisinG @Kheenbish @DocIllinois @ThunderHorse I agree with everything you guys said. And TH, no ad hom at all it’s a fair question.
> 
> I am purely of the mind that any process- literally the ends of corruption and crimes being uncovered in Washington in any form or fashion is good- like the Meuller investigation is good for the country. This is the one time I am ALL about some ‘whattaboutism’.
> 
> ...



It's probably worth pointing out that Mueller has handed off investigations to the SDNY of both Tony Podesta and Greg Craig.

It would seem he's not too bothered by political affiliation when it comes to criminals.


----------



## amlove21 (Oct 23, 2018)

Opinion piece from Politico on the upcoming DOJ Russian troll trial...


----------



## Poccington (Oct 30, 2018)

Mueller Wants the FBI to Look at a Scheme to Discredit Him

Want to be part of a ploy to try discredit Mueller? 

Among the first things you should do while looking to use an "intelligence firm" to offer women to fabricate stories about Mueller being a sex pest, is to make sure you remove your email address from anything to do with said firm and more importantly, don't have any diverts to your mother's phone number among the numbers associated with the firm.

Retards.


----------



## 4859 (Nov 9, 2018)

Cookie_101st said:


> Our political system would work much better if we changed lobbying laws and got rid of corporate political contributions, but I just don't see that happening without drastic changes neither party will support.



100% this.

Teddy told us, Franklin told us, Johnson told us...

The GOP is off the rails right now. But it doesn't change the fact that BOTH parties are entrenched in, in FDR's words 'political debt' to corporate interests and their billions in lobbying money.

And that's the way they like it. They get rich as fuck, as the middle class withers away. As long as they can keep distracting their constituents with finger pointing and fear mongering, they can keep it locked that way.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 9, 2018)

4859 said:


> 100% this.
> 
> Teddy told us, Franklin told us, Johnson told us...
> 
> ...



Uh...and the Democrats aren't?


----------



## DC (Nov 9, 2018)




----------



## 4859 (Nov 9, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Uh...and the Democrats aren't?



Might want to re read that post:



4859 said:


> 100% this.
> 
> Teddy told us, Franklin told us, Johnson told us...
> 
> ...


----------



## Poccington (Jan 25, 2019)

So it looks like it's Roger Stone's time in the barrel. 

The main question to come from his indictment is of course who was the individual that directed a senior Trump Campaign official to contact Stone for information regarding future WikiLeak releases?


----------



## Salt USMC (Jan 25, 2019)

Poccington said:


> So it looks like it's Roger Stone's time in the barrel.
> 
> The main question to come from his indictment is of course who was the individual that directed a senior Trump Campaign official to contact Stone for information regarding future WikiLeak releases?


It was Steve Bannon.  You know, the Trump campaign manager.



> Tuesday, October 4, 2016
> FROM: Steve Bannon
> TO: Roger Stone
> EMAIL:
> ...



The contents of these emails match the ones cited in Stone's indictment paperwork.


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## Poccington (Jan 25, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> It was Steve Bannon.  You know, the Trump campaign manager.
> 
> 
> 
> The contents of these emails match the ones cited in Stone's indictment paperwork.



Yeah I've seen that but the indictment specifically said that the Trump Campaign official was directed by someone to contact Stone. So you'd have to imagine the field of people who could tell Bannon or someone at his level what to do would be quite small.


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## Brill (Jan 25, 2019)

When were the targeted accounts hacked and when did Wikileaks post them?

Still unclear how this (Stone’s lawful activity in 2016) is associated with covert communications with GRU officers to acquire Democrat information in exchange for money and then expose the acquired info to sway voters to vote for Trump over Clinton.


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## Salt USMC (Jan 25, 2019)

Poccington said:


> Yeah I've seen that but the indictment specifically said that the Trump Campaign official was directed by someone to contact Stone. So you'd have to imagine the field of people who could tell Bannon or someone at his level what to do would be quite small.


That jumped out at me too.  However, the thing you're citing apparently happened in July, and while I believe Bannon worked for the campaign, he didn't officially assume the role of campaign manager until August.  You're right, though - the number of people who could tell Bannon to do that is pretty slim.


----------



## Poccington (Jan 25, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> That jumped out at me too.  However, the thing you're citing apparently happened in July, and while I believe Bannon worked for the campaign, he didn't officially assume the role of campaign manager until August.  You're right, though - the number of people who could tell Bannon to do that is pretty slim.



I guess everyone just has to wait for the next indictment to come down the line, that's where Mueller does his talking.


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## Brill (Jan 25, 2019)

Serious question for @Poccington, @Salt USMC, and others:

Which action of the Trump campaign or its surrogates do you all find so offensive? I think the crux of the argument is “Team Trump” leveraged foreign actors and information in an effort to influence the election.

Is that correct or is there more?


----------



## Brill (Jan 25, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> The Trump campaign/administration never used or tried to use Russia to hurt Hillary’s campaign and ultimately help President Trump win?



Necroposting this because that is exactly what the Right is upset about: it’s funny that the Clinton campaign paid a law firm who paid an oppo research company who compiled a report, which cited Russian intelligence officers as valid HUMINT sources, and as subsequently released to the press with the SOLE PURPOSE to damage the opposing campaign. Both the report and press articles ABOUT the report were used as the basis for at least one (but probably TWO) Title 1FISA warrants, which are used for FOREIGN intelligence, against an American citizen and then those details of those highly classified counterintelligence investigations were leaked to the press for...

basis of Congressional hearings.  Both parties openly cite press reports in their letters to agencies and witnesses.

The Right is upset because 12 of the MOST senior DOJ and FBI managers have been fired or resigned.

The Left is excited that Trump connected associates have been convicted of process crimes.

Never forget the effects of Harry Reid’s precedence. The IC was used (and duped*) against an opposing campaign and after two years America is still hurting as well as weakened because of it.  FBI, “justice”, elections are now jokes.

*only senior managers were aware the Steele Dossier, paid by Democrats, was the ultimate source of the CI case

Edit: Regarding the current indictments, this is worth a watch.


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## amlove21 (Jan 26, 2019)

lindy said:


> Post


Spin aside... so you’re saying yes, just that the  Clinton’s did too, and it’s damaged the FBI and our election process (or at least shed light on a very damaged system).

Who is ‘excited’ about that? Not me, my friend.

We will see what happens with Roger Stone, but at this point, there are some very clear facts we can state about the 2016 election.

One of those is, ‘in one form or another, Steve Bannon actively sought the release of hacked emails through an intermediary known as Guccifer 2.0 and that intermediary was Roger Stone, and that entity was an intelligence operation run by the state of Russia. Steve did this in hopes of winning the election.’

There will be more facts, but we are getting there. I’m ok with saying ‘everyone else does it!’ , but just do me s favor and don’t put me on either side of this because I don’t care.

Burn it to the ground. Start with this administration, because there’s plenty of kindling.


----------



## Brill (Jan 26, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> Spin aside... so you’re saying yes, just that the  Clinton’s did too, and it’s damaged the FBI and our election process (or at least shed light on a very damaged system).
> 
> Who is ‘excited’ about that? Not me, my friend.
> 
> ...



Fully agree that you are not excited but rather the Resistance is overjoyed as it supports the “he’s illegitimate” narrative.  Curious why Stone wasn’t charged with conspiracy with his solicitation with Guccifer?

Again, you’re advocating that it was wrong for Brannon to do EXACTLY what Clinton did (acquire political embarrassing info).  The only difference is the medium: emails vs HUMINT. Both emails and Steele sub sources were Russian intel officers. I assume this is the modern version of breaking into a shrinks office to get details on a leaker (ref Pentagon Papers).

It’s worth noting that Podesta’s emails were real whereas the Fusion GPS info was apparently fabricated as ALL of the non-public information has yet to be corroborated.

Modern politics are very dirty and agree we need a reset.  I think the money sources need to be tracked.


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## amlove21 (Jan 26, 2019)

This is a frustrating conversation to have.

Yes, I am advocating that Bannon and the presidents campaign team was wrong, actively engaged (knowingly or unknowingly) with a concerted Russian state sponsored hacking of the DNC, most likely with aid from now-dead (and surrounded nefariously in nature) Seth Rich. Who, by the way, got merked for his hack and subsequent leak in conjunction with Guccifer and Wikileaks.

.I ALSO fully accept that if there was an alternate universe, where Hillary’s campaign was investigated, the fecal matter would be impacting the oscillating air mover in probably the same way with the same, conceivably more, volume and intensity.

This endless roundabout we are engaged in is pointless unless the other person can get past ‘The other side did it too!’ And can get to ‘Alright, we wanted to drain the swamp, just turns out it’s our swamp going first. This is what’s best for America right now with the facts we have in front of us.’

Instead, it’s blame shifting, finger pointing, moral relativism, scapegoating and outright lying all on repeat from both sides.

I don’t give a shit about the left, and who did what with the dossier. We can and should get to that and any number of other things we will find out in a second.

I just want to make America great again.

ETA- Edits cause phone is dum


----------



## Poccington (Jan 26, 2019)

lindy said:


> Serious question for @Poccington, @Salt USMC, and others:
> 
> Which action of the Trump campaign or its surrogates do you all find so offensive? I think the crux of the argument is “Team Trump” leveraged foreign actors and information in an effort to influence the election.
> 
> Is that correct or is there more?



Offensive?

In terms of my interest in the whole matter, I genuinely find the whole Russian interference and the subsequent Mueller investigation to be really interesting, both the scale of it and the lengths the Russians went to in an attempt to insert themselves inside American politics. It's wild to watch it play out in real time.

As for the Trump Campaign, two constants of the Mueller investigation have been that during the Russian interference, Trump Campaign officials and advisors were in contact with both Kremlin linked Russians and a Russian cutout (Wikileaks) and those same officials and advisors, when questioned about those contacts, have repeatedly lied about it.

In terms of what I think they did, I really don't know. I find it hard to believe that there was a giant quid pro quo setup because it would be absolutely staggering if it did but who knows? All I do know is that I enjoy talking about the whole thing with folks on here, although I understand the whole thing is a far more serious affair for you guys over there.


----------



## Brill (Jan 26, 2019)

I do appreciate the replies.  I think the final Mueller report will be interesting and the subsequent declassification of both SIGINT and HUMINT holdings after the release.


----------



## Brill (Jan 26, 2019)

Another great piece by former US Attorney Andrew McCarthy:



> The rationale for the Trump-Russia investigation — namely, the notion that the Trump campaign had “coordinated” in the Kremlin’s cyber-espionage operation to meddle in the 2016 campaign — has been *nothing more than a suspicion harbored by political, law-enforcement, and intelligence officials who loathed Donald Trump.* That there may be a thousand good reasons to dislike Donald Trump is irrelevant, for we are talking about investigations, not politics. *Investigative suspicions must be rooted in fact, not contempt.*
> 
> Not only was the suggestion of a Trump-Russia conspiracy not founded on fact. The officials calling the shots had reason to know that the premise was factually false. In truth, *there was no evidence of Trump-campaign complicity in Russian espionage* — nothing but the Clinton-campaign generated, unverified Steele dossier. The months-in-the-making Stone indictment is just the latest proof of that.



https://www.nationalreview.com/2019...sia-conspiracy/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


----------



## Salt USMC (Jan 26, 2019)

lindy said:


> Another great piece by former US Attorney Andrew McCarthy:
> 
> 
> 
> https://www.nationalreview.com/2019...sia-conspiracy/amp/?__twitter_impression=true


I feel like this guy hasn't even read the indictment.


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## Brill (Jan 26, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> I feel like this guy hasn't even read the indictment.



What was the articulable suspicion that a crime was committed by Trump or members of his campaign to initiate the SC investigation?

Many cite the CI investigation however the DOJ doesn’t allow SC’s to conduct intelligence operations and the Trump campaign was never in possession of classified information.


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## Brill (Jan 27, 2019)

I think there are some good points in here but I strongly disagree with his suggestion. I believe all participants in our legal process should simply go where the evidence takes them. Jury nullification seems to subvert that process. Our system is far from perfect but, when not prejudiced, seems pretty darn good.

https://www.americanthinker.com/art...traged_americans_can_beat_robert_mueller.html


> a full-scale FBI SWAT team of 29 members, replete with long weapons, body armor, and even a flash-bang grenade or two.  The arrest took place at "zero dark thirty" or 5:30 A.M.  Nevertheless, *a CNN crew was on hand to film the whole thing*.
> 
> *The fact that a CNN crew was allowed to film Stone's arrest is evidence that nobody believed he was dangerous*.  Indeed, he was not: he is 66-year-old white-collar suspect with no prior history of violence, who didn't even have weapons in his house.  *Even the judge processing Stone's arraignment implicitly accepted that Stone was not dangerous; he allowed Stone to be released on a $250,000 surety bond.
> 
> ...


----------



## Kraut783 (Jan 27, 2019)

"DOJ doesn’t allow *SC’s *to conduct intelligence operations"

What is SC's?


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## Brill (Jan 27, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> "DOJ doesn’t allow *SC’s *to conduct intelligence operations"
> 
> What is SC's?



Special Counsel and their mandate is very clear: investigate crime as if a US Attorney. Counterintelligence is not a crime fighting tool but rather an intelligence operation. In my opinion, the DOJ used CI authorities in hopes to bring espionage charges against Team Trump, who didn’t get access to defense information until after 8 Nov but FISA warrants were approved well into 2017. Last person to chop one the Page FISA was Dep Attorney General, who currently controls Mueller and will resign upon Barr’s confirmation.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/28/part-600
§ 600.1 Grounds for appointing a *Special Counsel*.
The Attorney General, or in cases in which the Attorney General is recused, the Acting Attorney General, will appoint a  Special Counsel when he or she determines that *criminal investigation of a person or matter is warranted* and - 

(a) That investigation or prosecution of that person or matter by a United States Attorney's Office or litigating Division of the Department of Justice would present a conflict of interest for the Department or other extraordinary circumstances; and

(b) That under the circumstances, it would be in the public interest to appoint an outside Special Counsel to assume responsibility for the matter.

§ 600.6 Powers and authority.
Subject to the limitations in the following paragraphs, *the Special Counsel shall exercise*, within the scope of his or her jurisdiction, *the full power and independent authority to exercise all investigative and prosecutorial functions of any United States Attorney.*


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## Salt USMC (Jan 27, 2019)

lindy said:


> What was the articulable suspicion that a crime was committed by Trump or members of his campaign to initiate the SC investigation?
> 
> Many cite the CI investigation however the DOJ doesn’t allow SC’s to conduct intelligence operations and the Trump campaign was never in possession of classified information.


Let me try to understand what you're talking about here:  are you saying that this is ultimately a CI matter, and is not within the special counsel's remit?

Because section (b)(i) of the SC's appointment letter specifically says "[A]ny links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump Campaign" as well as any other matters within the scope of 28 CFR 600.4(a), which includes a number of other offenses including perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and a few other things.

If I'm off base, let me know.


----------



## Brill (Jan 27, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> Let me try to understand what you're talking about here:  are you saying that this is ultimately a CI matter, and is not within the special counsel's remit?
> 
> Because section (b)(i) of the SC's appointment letter specifically says "[A]ny links and/or coordination between the Russian government and individuals associated with the Trump Campaign" as well as any other matters within the scope of 28 CFR 600.4(a), which includes a number of other offenses including perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and a few other things.
> 
> If I'm off base, let me know.



Yes, I exactly.  28 CFR 600.4(a) also states, the sentence right before the portion you posted, “The Special Counsel will be provided with a specific factual statement of the matter to be investigated.”

Please cite “the specific factual statement of the matter to be investigated” (that means the crime committed) AND the conflict which the DOJ could not resolve on its own (ref 28 CFR 600.1 (a) *That investigation or prosecution of that person or matter by a United States Attorney's Office or litigating Division of the Department of Justice would present a conflict of interest for the Department or other extraordinary circumstances*;

US Attorneys all over the US could easily investigate “perjury, obstruction of justice, destruction of evidence, and a few other things.” since the do that everyday.

Additionally, please post the secondary letter the DAG gave to Mueller.  Oh, sorry, it’s heavily redacted. Criminal case outside espionage classified?

This is the text of the appointment of Starr. Note the crime referenced therein:

Upon consideration of the application of the attorney general pursuant to 28 U.S.C. Section 592 (c)(1)(A) for the appointment of an independent counsel with authority to exercise all the power, authority and obligations set forth in 28 U.S.C. Section 594, to investigate whether any individuals or entities have committed a violation of federal criminal law, other than a Class B or C misdemeanor or infraction, relating in any way to James B. McDougal's, President William Jefferson Clinton's, or Mrs. Hillary Rodham Clinton's relationships with Madison Guaranty Savings and Loan Assn., Whitewater Development Corp., or Capital Management Services Inc.; it is:

ORDERED by the court in accordance with the authority vested in it by 28 U.S.C. Section 593 (b) that Kenneth W. Starr, Esquire, of the District of Columbia bar, with offices at Kirkland and Ellis, 655-15th St., NW, Washington, D.C., 20005, be and he is hereby appointed independent counsel with full power, independent authority, and jurisdiction to investigate to the maximum extent authorized by the Independent Counsel Reauthorization Act of 1994 whether any individuals or entities have committed a violation of any federal criminal law, other than a Class B or C misdemeanor or infraction, relating in any way to James B. McDougal's, President William Jefferson Clinton's, or Mrs. Hillary Rodham Clinton's relationships with Madison Guaranty Savings & Loan Assn., Whitewater Development Corp., or Capital Management Services Inc.

This is Mueller’s appointment letter:

https://www.justice.gov/opa/press-release/file/967231/download
Additional scope:

https://www.politico.com/f/?id=00000162-8b23-d039-a976-dfe7110d0001
This is the investigation that Comey ref’d in his HPSCI testimony cited in the appointment letter:

Speaking before the House Intelligence Committee, Comey said that he had been authorized by the Department of Justice to confirm the investigation publicly “in an extraordinary step” since the agency does not typically do so with open investigations.

“I have been authorized by the Department of Justice to confirm that the FBI, *as part out our counterintelligence mission*, is investigating the Russian government’s efforts to interfere in the 2016 presidential election and that includes investigating the nature of any links between individuals associated with the Trump campaign and the Russian government, and whether there was any coordination between the campaign and Russia’s efforts,” he said.


What specifically is the CRIME that Mueller is investigating? Remember, Mueller is using tax dollars and We The People have no idea what the hell his ultimate end goal.

Well done Comrades Rosenstein and Mueller. The Party will be proud.


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## amlove21 (Jan 27, 2019)

@lindy , So, what is the end state here? We have (presumably) a legal team working for the president that is probably more qualified than you are, with more information than you have, and yet this investigation continues. Why? Why is it years and $X deep? If it’s as simple as you, a guy, on the internet posting some links and verbiage to what appears to be a super clear case that this really is just a Democrat led witch hunt- why are we here or even having this conversation. 


As a follow on- what should we do about the convictions and sentences already rendered? Should those be null and void because they’re essentislly fruit of the poison tree? If they weren’t asked about this quite obviously erroneous investigation, then they wouldn’t have had to lie. 

None of this logically follows for me. I’d rather just wait and see what the end state is and go from there.


----------



## Brill (Jan 27, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> @lindy , So, what is the end state here? We have (presumably) a legal team working for the president that is probably more qualified than you are, with more information than you have, and yet this investigation continues. Why? Why is it years and $X deep? If it’s as simple as you, a guy, on the internet posting some links and verbiage to what appears to be a super clear case that this really is just a Democrat led witch hunt- why are we here or even having this conversation.
> 
> 
> As a follow on- what should we do about the convictions and sentences already rendered? Should those be null and void because they’re essentislly fruit of the poison tree? If they weren’t asked about this quite obviously erroneous investigation, then they wouldn’t have had to lie.
> ...



I really wish We knew what the desired end state is. I thought the goal was to identify the perpetrators of that enabled foreign powers to sow discord in our electoral process but it seems the goal is to try to validate the information in the Steele Dossier and find crimes committed by Trump associates.

I think the investigation will wrap up soon with a lot of allegations and the various House committees will take up the charge until the President is impeached (conviction dependent on any high crimes and misdemeanors discovered). I know Schiff and Cummings have unti mid-Feb to present their outlines to Pelosi.

Regarding the indictments and convictions, let’s look at those. How many were ref’d in the Dossier? Where are the indictments and convictions of America for conspiracy to defraud the US?

https://www.politico.com/interactives/2018/interactive_mueller-indictments-russia-cohen-manafort/
Next, let’s look at the 12 GRU officers indicted. Curious how the indictment states details about the hacking of servers of Clinton Campaign, the DNC, and the DCCC. Press reporting and Congressional testimony indicates the FBI never received the servers. Another curious point the the indictment was moved away from prosecutors over to the National Security Division.

https://www.scribd.com/document/383803281/Baghdad-Bob-Mueller-Indictment
If you don’t like my posts in this thread, delete them.  I think I’m following the TOS of the site and have been staying on topic but you are the Administrator with the power. I’m just happy to be here! I have yet to be warned that I’m out of line.  I believe I’ve posted a different point of view and hopefully some of those points cause readers to research more.  I think there is some strange stuff going on here and I think it should be a topic of conversation; no different than a pass interference call that kept the Saints fro the Super Bowl.  I’m not a referee, pro ball player, or affiliated with a team but I can find the rules, grab clips from other games, etc to form an opinion.

Alinsky would commend the ridicule.


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## amlove21 (Jan 27, 2019)

All t


lindy said:


> I really wish We knew what the desired end state is. I thought the goal was to identify the perpetrators of that enabled foreign powers to sow discord in our electoral process...
> 
> Alinsky would commend the ridicule.


So, you and I agree on more than we disagree. 

I want to find out who wants to harm America, and that might be Flynn, Hillary, or other. Depending on how we judge malicious intent or well meaning procedural violation, tjosecandwers could be different. 

I’ll take the Alinsky allusion for a compliment- he and I share many traits, save maybe his penchant for anarchy in favor of his activism. 

I will say this, for your benefit because you werent real active during some of the flail on the board- you’re free to post whatever you want and go as hard as you like. Me as a person and me as an admin are not the same rule set; you haven’t done anything wrong and I appreciate your passion. I don’t even delete my own posts (or edit them) when I’m found to be wrong and that happens often. It’s important that you see things in context without revising at least as far as I see it.  This board isn’t an echo chamber and as a staff, we value that as long as you adhere to the moral fiber of the board, which you do. 

But your opinion is open to critique and skepticism- sometimes sharp in nature- when you make it public. 

Doesn’t mean I’m right; doesn’t mean you’re wrong. But I want to say thanks because you’re posting good, sourced material and you have a cogent point. 

I just don’t agree with you. 😎


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## Brill (Jan 28, 2019)

@amlove21

I’m not at all opposed to disagreement with my viewpoint, facts, or conclusions drawn: I think it’s actually helpful. I doubt you remember but we had nearly the same exchange in 2016 and I took a hiatus because of the combined actions of you and the banned admin.  My position is still the same as back then:

weapons free on my thoughts or ideas but any Admin or Mod that is reduced to personal ridicule or attacks because they are unable to offer a well-sourced counterpoint should not, in my opinion, be moderating users’ posts.

I try to present fact-based coherent arguments when I’m not being a smart ass. I have been known to fail at both.

I think we’re good.


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## Brill (Jan 28, 2019)

Open questions regarding Roger Stones indictment:

Per Steele Dossier, Carter Page and Paul Manafort were working with the Russian intelligence services to create a back channel to facilitate exchange of Democrat hacked material and Cohen went to Prague to pay for the services/materials.

Why did Stone need to contact Assange via 3rd party to get info about the multiple dumps of the emails?

The FBI and DOJ were so convinced by the Dossier that it key in getting the FISA on Page.

https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/07/carter-page-fisa-applications-fbi-steele-dossier/
Investigators had '50/50' chance of securing FISA warrant for Trump aide without dossier: testimony


It should be illegal for EVERYONE to lie to Federal agents, Congress, and tamper with witnesses...not just Republicans.


----------



## amlove21 (Jan 28, 2019)

lindy said:


> @amlove21
> 
> I’m not at all opposed to disagreement with my viewpoint, facts, or conclusions drawn: I think it’s actually helpful. I doubt you remember but we had nearly the same exchange in 2016 and I took a hiatus because of the combined actions of you and the banned admin.  My position is still the same as back then:
> 
> ...


Yep.


----------



## RackMaster (Jan 30, 2019)

Well and then the Russian's do this. 

Russians leaked Mueller investigation evidence online, prosecutors say


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## amlove21 (Jan 30, 2019)

RackMaster said:


> Well and then the Russian's do this.
> 
> Russians leaked Mueller investigation evidence online, prosecutors say


Hey, come on. It’s just a pro-Russian page from a computer in Russia- but that information is coming from the FBI. Collusion isn’t a crime, that’s not what what the investigation is about and none of this really matters because (X Person/Party/Entity) did it too. Hell, so do we. 

When are we going to move on?! 😂😎😎


----------



## Gordus (Jan 30, 2019)

I would suggest not until everything has been properly investigated.
There's too many inconsistencies in certain characters and their associates' statements, suggesting adjustment of narratives due to possible surface of incriminating evidence, and possible efforts to get rid of evidence.
Kind of a huge deal on that level to just dismiss it and say "hey happens, collusion ain't a crime, let's move on."


----------



## Brill (Jan 31, 2019)

RackMaster said:


> Well and then the Russian's do this.
> 
> Russians leaked Mueller investigation evidence online, prosecutors say



Have to admit, the irony is funny.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jan 31, 2019)

RackMaster said:


> Well and then the Russian's do this.
> 
> Russians leaked Mueller investigation evidence online, prosecutors say


So...how many people do we have to put in a dark cell without a trial over this?


----------



## AWP (Jan 31, 2019)

By now the whole Russian collusion discussion makes the Rashomon look crystal clear... The writers for Westworld are glad their narrative is so concise in comparison...


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## amlove21 (Jan 31, 2019)

Gordus said:


> I would suggest not until everything has been properly investigated.
> There's too many inconsistencies in certain characters and their associates' statements, suggesting adjustment of narratives due to possible surface of incriminating evidence, and possible efforts to get rid of evidence.
> Kind of a huge deal on that level to just dismiss it and say "hey happens, collusion ain't a crime, let's move on."


Just for clarity- my post was 100% a joke. Hence the smileys. 

There’s a joke in here about Germans and sense of humor... I just know it.


----------



## Gordus (Jan 31, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> There’s a joke in here about Germans and sense of humor... I just know it.



Oh no ..... you're right. I'm becoming too German ..... oh my god, I'm growing long hair and a stache ..... suddenly, this urge to expand and take over ..... losing .... sense .... of ..... humor ..... and good taste in wine ..... argh ..... 

On a serious note though, if you know the language and are aquainted with the culture, Germans have pretty good humor ^^


----------



## amlove21 (Jan 31, 2019)

Gordus said:


> Oh no ..... you're right. I'm becoming too German ..... oh my god, I'm growing long hair and a stache ..... suddenly, this urge to expand and take over ..... losing .... sense .... of ..... humor ..... and good taste in wine ..... argh .....
> 
> On a serious note though, if you know the language and are aquainted with the culture, Germans have pretty good humor ^^


They really do. I’ve always had a great time in Germany.


----------



## Brill (Jan 31, 2019)

So this is a little hard for the uninitiated to follow so let me know if I’m not conveying a “so what”.

ADM Rogers told DOJ there were “problems” with some queries of the 702 database. FBI contractors were using the DB outside the scope of their duties. DOJ should have told FISC. Rogers told FISC, shut it all down, and after election, visited Trump Tower. Immediately USG heads call for his firing.  Wait...there’s more!



> In March of 2016, NSA Director Rogers became aware of *improper access to raw FISA data* (Page 83 of Court Ruling).
> 
> In April of 2016, Rogers directed the NSA’s Office of Compliance to conduct a “fundamental baseline review of compliance associated with 702” (Senate testimony & Page 83-84 of Court Ruling).
> 
> ...



So, all that to say it appears, based on press reporting, that analysts were improperly searching the database and the DOJ’s NSD failed to inform the FISC as per statue. When Rogers told FISC, head of NSD resigned.

Next, we have this:






Bruce Ohr, #4 at DOJ, is married to Nellie, who worked for Fusion GPS, the folks that compiled the Steele memos aka Dossier.

Which unclassified database contains personal travel info that would be linked to other travelers or persons? Was Nellie a FBI contractor that queried intelligence databases?


----------



## Brill (Feb 14, 2019)

Shocked that this could actually happen here and not isolated to the movies.



> “The most illuminating and surprising thing in the interview to me were these eight days in May when all of these things were happening behind the scenes that the American people really didn’t know about,” Pelley said about his sit-down with McCabe.
> 
> “There were meetings at the Justice Department at which it was discussed whether the vice president and a majority of the Cabinet could be brought together to remove the president of the United States under the 25th Amendment,” Pelley added. “These were the eight days from Comey’s firing to the point that Robert Mueller was appointed special counsel. And the highest levels of American law enforcement were trying to figure out what do with the president.”



Fired Deputy FBI Director Andrew McCabe Claims DOJ Discussed A COUP Against Trump[


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 14, 2019)

lindy said:


> Shocked that this could actually happen here and not isolated to the movies.
> 
> 
> 
> Fired Deputy FBI Director Andrew McCabe Claims DOJ Discussed A COUP Against Trump[


Reads as though they conspired to commit treason...guessing they'll go unpunished though.


----------



## Salt USMC (Feb 14, 2019)

lindy said:


> Shocked that this could actually happen here and not isolated to the movies.
> 
> Fired Deputy FBI Director Andrew McCabe Claims DOJ Discussed A COUP Against Trump[





ThunderHorse said:


> Reads as though they conspired to commit treason...guessing they'll go unpunished though.


Okay, first the declaration of this action as a "coup" or "treason" is massive hyperbole.  I don't see how investigating the use of constitutional powers by the agency tasked with overseeing the executive is "treason".  Now, I _do_ think that it sets a bad precedent, but these kinds of things are exactly what the Department of Justice and FBI are _supposed_ to do!  This article from NYT has a more nuanced take on the issue: McCabe Says Justice Dept. Officials Had Discussions About Pushing Trump Out

Also, I think it's ridiculous that McCabe decided to put this out as press hype for his BOOK instead of, you know, when testifying in front of congress.  That's a pretty scummy thing to do, all things considered.


----------



## Brill (Feb 14, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> Okay, first the declaration of this action as a "coup" or "treason" is massive hyperbole.  I don't see how investigating the use of constitutional powers by the agency tasked with overseeing the executive is "treason".  Now, I _do_ think that it sets a bad precedent, but these kinds of things are exactly what the Department of Justice and FBI are _supposed_ to do!  This article from NYT has a more nuanced take on the issue: McCabe Says Justice Dept. Officials Had Discussions About Pushing Trump Out
> 
> Also, I think it's ridiculous that McCabe decided to put this out as press hype for his BOOK instead of, you know, when testifying in front of congress.  That's a pretty scummy thing to do, all things considered.



FBI is tasked with overseeing the Executive Branch?  If you mean crime fighting, what is the crime that allegedly occurred for the FBI to investigate their boss?

The timing of McCabe’s press acty is interesting when we get a new AG.

I think the “coup” talk USED to be hyperbolic but in 2019, it’s middle of the road now.


----------



## Salt USMC (Feb 14, 2019)

DOJ is.  Don’t forget - DAG Rod Rosenstein was in those meetings


----------



## Brill (Feb 14, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> DOJ is.  Don’t forget - DAG Rod Rosenstein was in those meetings



DOJ is a subordinate office in Exe Branch and have zero jurisdiction to decide which officers stay/go. Rosenstein authored the letter used to fire Comey and signed the last FISA warrant on Page. He will supposedly retire soon (after Barr’s confirmation was the plan).

I think it’s difficult to justify a group of people within the Gov who discussed...conspired...to remove an elected official that received proper votes, according to the Constitution, to become President.  If that isn’t a soft coup, what would it be?

I’m concerned that anti-(insert POTUS) bureaucrats even discussed this. #resistance?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 15, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> Okay, first the declaration of this action as a "coup" or "treason" is massive hyperbole.  I don't see how investigating the use of constitutional powers by the agency tasked with overseeing the executive is "treason".  Now, I _do_ think that it sets a bad precedent, but these kinds of things are exactly what the Department of Justice and FBI are _supposed_ to do!  This article from NYT has a more nuanced take on the issue: McCabe Says Justice Dept. Officials Had Discussions About Pushing Trump Out
> 
> Also, I think it's ridiculous that McCabe decided to put this out as press hype for his BOOK instead of, you know, when testifying in front of congress.  That's a pretty scummy thing to do, all things considered.


These fuckwits need to not be allowed to write books, he made a grandstand obviously to get publicity so that he could create a profile to write a tell all book.


----------



## Brill (Feb 15, 2019)

Hmmmm.



> Dershowitz called that effort an “attempted coup d’état” and a “grievous offense against the Constitution.”
> 
> “Well, if that’s true, it is clearly an attempted coup d’état,” Dershowitz said. “Now relating to what your last guest said, let’s take the worst case scenario. *Let’s assume the president of the United States was in bed with the Russians, committed treason and obstruction of justice. The 25th Amendment simply is irrelevant to that. That’s why you have an impeachment provision.* The 25th Amendment is about Woodrow Wilson having a stroke. It’s about a president being shot and not being able to perform his office. It’s not about the most fundamental disagreements. It’s not about impeachable offenses. *Any Justice Department official who even mentioned the 25th Amendment in the context of President Trump has committed a grievous offense against the Constitution.*”


----------



## Brill (Feb 16, 2019)

Right “leaning” source so even the under that light, this piece raises some questions.  I wonder if we’ll even know?



> According to anonymous FBI officials talking to The Times, McCabe and his associates even kept “contemporaneous memos” on their actions and meetings with Trump—again another effort to find the president guilty of some crime. According to one of these memos, *Rosenstein and McCabe determined they needed to peel off eight of the 15 cabinet officials. And Rosenstein suggested that he might have supporters “in the attorney general and the secretary of homeland security.”*
> 
> Yikes. Here we have a formerly powerful and unelected government official, for all the world to see, admitting that the FBI tried to launch a coup against the constitutionally elected president of the United States, in only the first few months of his tenure. But there’s more going on than that. Here are seven quick takeaways on McCabe’s revelation of his planned coup.



7 Big Takeaways From Andrew McCabe’s Planned Coup


----------



## Brill (Feb 20, 2019)

Smolett hopes the impeachment talk, via “muh Russia” investigation, will take the heat off him.

https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/20/politics/special-counsel-conclusion-announcement/index.html

In all seriousness, what on earth will the #resistance do when no conspiracy is found/detailed in the report?


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 20, 2019)

lindy said:


> Smolett hopes the impeachment talk, via “muh Russia” investigation, will take the heat off him.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/20/politics/special-counsel-conclusion-announcement/index.html
> 
> In all seriousness, what on earth will the #resistance do when no conspiracy is found/detailed in the report?



My prediction:  Nothing will change. The house will continue to investigate and every other Democrat will call for impeachment. They will cling onto every word like "possible" or "unsubstantiated" and hope that they will find some mud in there somewhere.

Nothing short of "there is no evidence whatsoever in any form or any type" we'll keep them from thinking that there is. It will be their version of Hillary's emails.


----------



## Brill (Feb 20, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> My prediction:  Nothing will change. The house will continue to investigate and every other Democrat will call for impeachment. They will cling onto every word like "possible" or "unsubstantiated" and hope that they will find some mud in there somewhere.
> 
> Nothing short of "there is no evidence whatsoever in any form or any type" we'll keep them from thinking that there is. It will be their version of Hillary's emails.



Da, comdrade, da. I think the report will allude to a lot and continue mantra “you can’t prove that Trump is NOT a Russian spy”.

Sad that we have a tiered justice system.


----------



## Kaldak (Feb 20, 2019)

lindy said:


> Smolett hopes the impeachment talk, via “muh Russia” investigation, will take the heat off him.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/20/politics/special-counsel-conclusion-announcement/index.html
> 
> In all seriousness, what on earth will the #resistance do when no conspiracy is found/detailed in the report?



_In addition, Mueller has referred certain matters that fell outside the scope of the Russia probe to other US Attorneys to pursue._

From the article. If it is outside the scope, why investigate to the point that you feel referring to prosecutors is necessary? Hhonestly asking.



lindy said:


> Da, comdrade, da. I think the report will allude to a lot and continue mantra “you can’t prove that Trump is NOT a Russian spy”.
> 
> Sad that we have a tiered justice system.



I think it's asinine that anyone thinks he's a Russian spy. Just like I think it is asinine that anyone thought Obama wasn't born a US citizen. 

Really, come on people, are we still in 1st grade?


----------



## Salt USMC (Feb 20, 2019)

lindy said:


> Smolett hopes the impeachment talk, via “muh Russia” investigation, will take the heat off him.
> 
> https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/20/politics/special-counsel-conclusion-announcement/index.html
> 
> In all seriousness, what on earth will the #resistance do when no conspiracy is found/detailed in the report?


If earlier reports are to be believed, there is still an obstruction of justice report that will be delivered separately.  It's almost certain that the special counsel will find significant evidence of obstruction on part of administration officials.  Whether that's referred to congress for action is another matter entirely.


----------



## Brill (Feb 20, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> If earlier reports are to be believed, there is still an obstruction of justice report that will be delivered separately.  It's almost certain that the special counsel will find significant evidence of obstruction on part of administration officials.  Whether that's referred to congress for action is another matter entirely.



Uh, the Special Counsel works for the DOJ and not Congress, who has less investigatory powers as the DOJ.

Curious as to what you feel was obstructed.  I think this would be an interesting topic, criminal liability when executing Constitutional powers, for the courts to weigh in on.

Either way, this shit needs to end with either Trump removed for committing high crimes and misdemeanors OR the Left to shut the fuck up and put forth a better candidate in 2020.  This continued #resistance bullshit of cowardly innuendo is hurting the country by destroying faith in our institutions!!!

Edit: you’re not referring to “earlier reports” as the latest from the NYT?


----------



## Brill (Feb 20, 2019)

Kaldak said:


> _In addition, Mueller has referred certain matters that fell outside the scope of the Russia probe to other US Attorneys to pursue._
> 
> From the article. If it is outside the scope, why investigate to the point that you feel referring to prosecutors is necessary? Hhonestly asking.



I think that comes from the section of the mandate “to investigate all matters rising from investigation”. Assume that refers to Manafort and Flynn’s lobbying without FARA compliance and Manafort’s financial transgressions.

Agree 100% that it’s ridiculous to think he’s a spy yet that is EXACTLY what the acting FBI dir did...before he was fired...”like a dog” ( favorite quote of Trump’s).


----------



## Kaldak (Feb 20, 2019)

@lindy it was you or someone else who posted about the special counsel's preview. Does it allow them to go outside the purview of the mandate, for the purpose of simply investigating supposed crimes? That seems like a very wide berth to me. I've never been perfect, but this standard means I could be investigated purely by association. 

I may be stretching it, and if so, please correct me.


----------



## Brill (Feb 20, 2019)

Kaldak said:


> @lindy it was you or someone else who posted about the special counsel's preview. Does it allow them to go outside the purview of the mandate, for the purpose of simply investigating supposed crimes? That seems like a very wide berth to me. I've never been perfect, but this standard means I could be investigated purely by association.
> 
> I may be stretching it, and if so, please correct me.



I think that, a very wide berth, is exactly how Ken Starr went from looking at land deals in AR (Whitewater) to lies and obstruction for getting a hummer(s) in the Oval.

Personally, I think the Mueller investigation is an attempt to VALIDATE the Steele dossier and even Mrs Ohrs work. Also worth noting the timing: new AG and investigation ends within 14-ish days???  Nothing to see here.

James Woods sums it up nicely:



> This nation has endured two years of hell, all because some drunken old hag didn’t get “her turn.” #Liberalism




__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1088481810844069888


----------



## Brill (Mar 7, 2019)

Well this is inconvenient for the “Putin helped Trump steal the election from Clinton” mantra that we’ve heard over and over.

Worth noting that Manafort was targeted because he, per the dossier, he conspired with the Russians to get info on Clinton and received kickbacks directly from RU gov.

None of that was determined to be true.

Manafort Judge: He’s Not Being Convicted Of Colluding With Russia


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 7, 2019)




----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 7, 2019)

lindy said:


> Well this is inconvenient for the “Putin helped Trump steal the election from Clinton” mantra that we’ve heard over and over.
> 
> Worth noting that Manafort was targeted because he, per the dossier, he conspired with the Russians to get info on Clinton and received kickbacks directly from RU gov.
> 
> ...


Who knew...oh wait


----------



## amlove21 (Mar 7, 2019)

Yeah, I’m actually looking forward to the Meuller report saying that there was zero Russian interference and that, even if there was, it wasn’t in favor of one candidate vs another candidate. 

Hope the whole thing gets published. ASAP.


----------



## Salt USMC (Mar 7, 2019)

I'm honestly hoping that it shows that there wasn't any coordination between the two.  Like, I think it's psychotic to hope that the Mueller report is the thing that "Finally gets him!"  The alternative is pretty fucking scary - I don't care which side of the issue you fall on.  If, and that's a big IF the report shows a demonstrable conspiracy, then I would hope that all of you guys would get rightly pissed.  It would shatter a lot of people's faith in the electoral process; perhaps even moreso than Nixon did.


----------



## amlove21 (Mar 7, 2019)

@Salt USMC it’s painfully obvious Russia influenced the election. Our election. 

But as long as Meuller clears the president without R. Kelly-like video evidence, then it’s a point for argument. 

As long as the candidate wasn’t caught on film holding a newspaper fellating Putin, there will be some that stick to the NO COLLUSION narrative. 

At this point, we’ve all been gaslighted. All news is fake news, all facts are alternative. The report doesn’t matter. 

The president doesn’t devalue women cause he can grab them by the pussy. He can be supported by evangelicals with 3 wives and 5 kids. He can withhold is tax returns because he has interests in Russia. 

New world presidential. The president is an amoral schill that sides with dictators and murderers and pays money to porn stars for their silence. Those are all facts. 

To believe he won’t get away this this? Well, you’re dumb.


----------



## Brill (Mar 8, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> @Salt USMC it’s painfully obvious Russia influenced the election. Our election.



Indeed but not at all in the way we have been told.

Russia executed the greatest disinformation campaign in history, one that will be THE how to in our PSYOPS classes for eons.  They inserted BS into a campaign and it was eagerly accepted by both law enforcement AND the intelligence community. The plan was so effective it damn near subverted our Democracy and STILL is disrupting the work of Congress (BS hearings) and undermining our confidence in the electoral process.

A little something like this:


----------



## Devildoc (Mar 8, 2019)

@amlove21 , there's interference, and there is collusion.  There is zero doubt, I think with just about anyone, that Mother Bear has fucked with this country's political process; I imagine it's far more than we actually know.  I am ticked but my righteousness can only go so far given how much Uncle Sam has done the same thing over there.

As for collusion, a secret and/or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, I think the water muddies so considerably it's ridiculous.  Mueller et al., _DO_ need iron-clad, bona-fide proof.  If he has it, Trump _should_ burn, regardless of how much I approve or disapprove of what he has otherwise done as POTUS.  If he doesn't, he should be fully exonerated.  But if he _IS_ exonerated, most of the left will refuse to believe it.

A lot of people, almost everyone on the left and some on the right, want to throw ALL of this and the rest of everything in the same pot, to the left's detriment.  

As for your comment "the president is an amoral schill that sides with dictators and murderers and pays money to porn stars for their silence", at first I thought you were talking about Bill Clinton (and Paula Jones).  Funny aside, this country left moral and ethical leaders lay on the side of the road years ago.  Not sure if we'll ever get back there.


----------



## Salt USMC (Mar 8, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> As for collusion, a secret and/or illegal cooperation or conspiracy, I think the water muddies so considerably it's ridiculous.  Mueller et al., _DO_ need iron-clad, bona-fide proof.  If he has it, Trump _should_ burn, regardless of how much I approve or disapprove of what he has otherwise done as POTUS.  If he doesn't, he should be fully exonerated.  But if he _IS_ exonerated, most of the left will refuse to believe it.


This is an essential point and why I, even as a leftist, absolutely despise the #resistance democrats.  These particular democrats has put all of their stock in the Special Counsel's investigation - they have this childlike fantasy that Mueller is going to have an _All the President's Men_ moment where he documents very publicly lays out the entire conspiracy and we smash cut to Donald Trump being led away in handcuffs. Then, they'll be able to return to the pre-Trump world of _respectful disagreements_ and other relics of a bucolic politial era. 

They don't want to work on the hard problems of organizing, campaigning, and other forms of electioneering.  You know, the stuff that wins elections.  They want a silver bullet solution so they can throw up their hands, say *JESUS TAKE THE WHEEL*, and hope that Saint Mueller the Conflicted will deliver rock-solid evidence of a vast international conspiracy.  What I'm saying is that they have no plan for actually defeating Trump in 2020 beyond posting memes on Facebook.  And if the Special Counsel's office doesn't deliver, these people will be absolutely broken. 

I get especially frustrated because my mom is one of these people and it frustrates me to no end.  She'll repost every stupid thing from NowThis or Occupy Democrats, but won't donate a cent to local races or canvas for candidates.  She's been, essentially, a centrist democrat for most of her life but she's only recently become politically aware.  Unfortunately, her political awareness extends only to memes and whatever the Saturday Night Live cold open has.  While people like my mom will vote, politically they're dead weight.


----------



## amlove21 (Mar 8, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> As for your comment "the president is an amoral schill that sides with dictators and murderers and pays money to porn stars for their silence", at first I thought you were talking about Bill Clinton (and Paula Jones).  Funny aside, this country left moral and ethical leaders lay on the side of the road years ago. * Not sure if we'll ever get back there*.


So, slight disagree here, except to the bolded which I 100% agree with. There definitely were presidents who were probably doing amoral things in their lives that we didn't know about (or know about fully); Clinton and JFK come to mind. 

I guess I would ask, is it important for you as a citizen to have someone in office that adheres to the same values as you do?


----------



## Blizzard (Mar 8, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> I guess I would ask, is it important for you as a citizen to have someone in office that adheres to the same values as you do?


Not directed to me, but I'll still answer.  Yes...at least some key core values.  However, I also realize that won't happen because many of the values I deem important are generally at odds with traits of those politicians typically seeking the office.

Do you think they should be different?


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 8, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> I'm honestly hoping that it shows that there wasn't any coordination between the two.  Like, I think it's psychotic to hope that the Mueller report is the thing that "Finally gets him!"  The alternative is pretty fucking scary - I don't care which side of the issue you fall on.  If, and that's a big IF the report shows a demonstrable conspiracy, then I would hope that all of you guys would get rightly pissed.  It would shatter a lot of people's faith in the electoral process; perhaps even moreso than Nixon did.



If that report shows true clear conspiracy,  I'm gonna be the first one in-line to scream for hanging him. There is some things he has done I like, and some that I do not like. But colluding with Russia,  or being any form of a puppet of Russia is totally unacceptable and treasonous... Period.


----------



## Devildoc (Mar 8, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> So, slight disagree here, except to the bolded which I 100% agree with. There definitely were presidents who were probably doing amoral things in their lives that we didn't know about (or know about fully); Clinton and JFK come to mind.
> 
> _*I guess I would ask, is it important for you as a citizen to have someone in office that adheres to the same values as you do?*_



@amlove21 that is a great question.  I think politicians should have an equal dose of similar values and managerial substance (for lack of a better word).  I am willing to overlook the "grab 'em by the pussy" if he can reduce my taxes or get us out of Astan; but I will fully concede that all of it is a sliding scale.  What I will put up with depends.

See, I liked Clinton--as a guy with whom to drink beer, not as a president.  But I acknowledge he had some strong presidential leadership qualities in some areas even though many of his policies I disagree with.  I liked Bush (Jr and Sr), though I didn't like the way they managed the ME and the cozy relationship with the House of Saud.  So with all of them it was a sliding scale of values and policy.


----------



## Brill (Mar 8, 2019)

@Devildoc , could you expound on this because I’m unclear which process you’re referring.

“There is zero doubt, I think with just about anyone, that Mother Bear has fucked with this country's political process...”


----------



## Brill (Mar 8, 2019)

Blizzard said:


> Not directed to me, but I'll still answer.  Yes...at least some key core values.  However, I also realize that won't happen because many of the values I deem important are generally at odds with traits of those politicians typically seeking the office.
> 
> Do you think they should be different?



I’d like to see a real Libertarian in office but I’m old enough to realize the next best thing is someone who will enact polices which support or advance my values.

I really don’t care what kind of personal life DJT had before 20 Jan 2017; I’m not throwing that first stone. His actions as POTUS are a concern and I think his policies are wonderful for Us.

Republicans have a positive view of the US.
Democrats have a negative view and want drastic change.


----------



## Devildoc (Mar 8, 2019)

lindy said:


> @Devildoc , could you expound on this because I’m unclear which process you’re referring.
> 
> “There is zero doubt, I think with just about anyone, that Mother Bear has fucked with this country's political process...”



Talking about how Russia has actively interfered in our elections.


----------



## Brill (Mar 8, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> Talking about how Russia has actively interfered in our elections.



Seriously, how? They didn’t change votes, didn’t change tally, etc.


----------



## Devildoc (Mar 8, 2019)

lindy said:


> Seriously, how? They didn’t change votes, didn’t change tally, etc.



They've been mucking in the election process for a while...bots, social media, etc.


----------



## Brill (Mar 8, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> They've been mucking in the election process for a while...bots, social media, etc.



Agree they’re trying to influence voters and sow discord to exacerbate the infighting but I am confident that actions on objective (voting a polling place) on 8 Nov were unaffected.


----------



## Kaldak (Mar 8, 2019)

I don't like that Russia meddles in our politics. But, can we honestly say we can stop them, or China?

I don't think so, sadly. We can mitigate, but not eliminate. 

Just like others can't stop us from doing the same.

Just my two cents.


----------



## Brill (Mar 8, 2019)

Kaldak said:


> I don't like that Russia meddles in our politics. But, can we honestly say we can stop them, or China?
> 
> I don't think so, sadly. We can mitigate, but not eliminate.
> 
> ...



I don’t like how Americans appear to believe stuff the read...or do they? I bought into the shared reality that Hillary was going to spank the Don but voted for him anyway.

I still remember watching the returns coming and nudging my sleeping wife “He’s going to win!” I thanked God that we dodged a bullet but had no idea the hell that would be unleashed because of some BS the Russian Special Services fed to the USG that ate it all up and asked for more.

Then the same fuckers cried foul when POTUS talked to Putin in Finland.

I hope POTUS declass’s ALL the bullshit “Intel” 10 mins after Barr gets the Mueller comic book.


----------



## Kaldak (Mar 8, 2019)

lindy said:


> I don’t like how Americans appear to believe stuff the read...or do they? I bought into the shared reality that Hillary was going to spank the Don but voted for him anyway.
> 
> I still remember watching the returns coming and nudging my sleeping wife “He’s going to win!” I thanked God that we dodged a bullet but had no idea the hell that would be unleashed because of some BS the Russian Special Services fed to the USG that ate it all up and asked for more.
> 
> ...



I don't disagree with you. I also am not naive; Russia at least tries to meddle in our elections. Not just this one, either. That muddling may amount to no more than some Facebook bots. I don't have the experience or clearance to know what they do or don't do. I know they do something. If they don't, they are much dumber than we think.

I'm not saying they hacked our polls or that Trump colluded. That's a non-starter for me. If they did, some Edward Snowden type would've upload the evidence to MSNBC a long time ago.


----------



## Brill (Mar 8, 2019)

Kaldak said:


> I know they do something. If they don't, they are much dumber than we think.



I would assume DOD calls them “near peer” for a reason. Honestly, I think the Russian elite fuck with people just to do it. Sick bastards.


----------



## amlove21 (Mar 8, 2019)

Blizzard said:


> Not directed to me, but I'll still answer.  Yes...at least some key core values.  However, I also realize that won't happen because many of the values I deem important are generally at odds with traits of those politicians typically seeking the office.
> 
> Do you think they should be different?


Can you clarify what you mean by, “Do you think they should be different”? I assume you mean, do my specific values and the values of elected officials need to be the same for me to approve? I want to make sure I’m reading and understanding where you want to go.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 9, 2019)

lindy said:


> I don’t like how Americans appear to believe stuff the read...or do they? I bought into the shared reality that Hillary was going to spank the Don but voted for him anyway.



Uh...

"If you don't read the newspaper, you're uninformed. If you do read it, you're misinformed."-Attributed to Mark Twain.


----------



## Blizzard (Mar 9, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> Can you clarify what you mean by, “Do you think they should be different”? I assume you mean, do my specific values and the values of elected officials need to be the same for me to approve? I want to make sure I’m reading and understanding where you want to go.


Yes, you interpreted it correct.


----------



## Brill (Mar 12, 2019)

Some interesting points in here including the FBI had parts of the dossier BEFORE Ohr gave it to them.  So, where’d it come from?

Also, Steele was communicating with Ohr until Nov 2017, well into the Mueller investigation.

11 Key Things Inside The House Interview With Spygate Figure Bruce Ohr


----------



## Brill (Mar 13, 2019)

Sure looks like special treatment.



> "We did not blow over gross negligence. We, in fact and, in fact, the Director because on its face, it did seem like, well, maybe there's a potential here for this to be the charge," Page said. "And we had multiple conversations, multiple conversations with the Justice Department about charging gross negligence."
> 
> Page continued: "And the Justice Department's assessment was that it was both constitutionally vague, so that they did not actually feel that they could permissibly bring that charge, and also that it had either never been done or had only been done once like 99 years ago. And so they did not feel that they could sustain a charge."
> 
> ...



Obama DOJ Told FBI Not To Charge Hillary, Lisa Page Reveals What The 'Insurance Policy' Was


----------



## Brill (Mar 16, 2019)

Steele used crowdsourced info in his dossier. Seriously, random shit used as basis to gather info on an American?



> The latest revelation of using unconfirmed sources put the dossier’s legitimacy further into question, especially since the FBI extensively relied on the dossier in its warrant applications to the Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act (FISA) court in seeking to surveil Trump aide Carter Page.



FBI should be removed from the IC.

Old CNN website was source of unvetted 'random' info used by author of anti-Trump dossier, docs reveal


----------



## DA SWO (Mar 16, 2019)

Russia has tried to influence our elections for years, it's nothing new.

We try to influence elections in other countries (e.g. Obama admin in Israel), no outrage there.

Obama weaponized the IC against Americans, yet no outrage.


----------



## Devildoc (Mar 16, 2019)

lindy said:


> Steele used crowdsourced info in his dossier. Seriously, random shit used as basis to gather info on an American?
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Clown shoes.  Counterintelligence and collusion brought to by the letter "C", next up on Sesame Street....


----------



## Brill (Mar 19, 2019)

Well this is an interesting turn of events.

Wonder if Barr is looking into the “wearing a Wire” comment or Sen Graham’s FISA queries?
Rosenstein hanging on at DOJ amid Mueller probe wind-down, despite plans to leave by now


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 22, 2019)

Mueller Report has been delivered: Mueller Delivers Report on Russia Investigation to Attorney General


----------



## Brill (Mar 22, 2019)

Someone should be held responsible: either the guilty or the false accusers.  This shit cannot be allowed to happen again.


----------



## Brill (Mar 22, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> Mueller Report has been delivered: Mueller Delivers Report on Russia Investigation to Attorney General



Letter from Barr to Congressional Judiciary leaders.

https://theconservativetreehouse.fi...rr-letter-to-congress-mueller-probe-ended.jpg

Twitter is alight that there will NOT be anymore indictments...so it may really be over. What did we get for our $30 mil?


----------



## SpitfireV (Mar 22, 2019)

lindy said:


> Letter from Barr to Congressional Judiciary leaders.
> 
> https://theconservativetreehouse.fi...rr-letter-to-congress-mueller-probe-ended.jpg
> 
> Twitter is alight that there will NOT be anymore indictments...so it may really be over. What did we get for our $30 mil?



Peace of mind? A better idea of what the Russians are up to? 

Perhaps you and @ThunderHorse should get together and start a consultancy on budgeting. You'd make a fortune, if you thought it was worth it for your clients to pay you.


----------



## Brill (Mar 22, 2019)

SpitfireV said:


> Peace of mind? A better idea of what the Russians are up to?



Don’t need DOJ for that when we have an Intelligence Community but then again, looks like these lawyers were working in a SCIF, which is odd.

Turn in your smartphones! How Mueller kept a lid on Trump-Russia probe

Edit: I can barely get the USG to pay me! Open market clients would see through my BS!


----------



## Poccington (Mar 22, 2019)

lindy said:


> Letter from Barr to Congressional Judiciary leaders.
> 
> https://theconservativetreehouse.fi...rr-letter-to-congress-mueller-probe-ended.jpg
> 
> Twitter is alight that there will NOT be anymore indictments...so it may really be over. What did we get for our $30 mil?



In fairness to Mueller, he got over 40 mil worth of forfeitures from Manafort so he actually finished in the green.

The very definition of government efficiency!


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 22, 2019)

SpitfireV said:


> Peace of mind? A better idea of what the Russians are up to?
> 
> Perhaps you and @ThunderHorse should get together and start a consultancy on budgeting. You'd make a fortune, if you thought it was worth it for your clients to pay you.


Well the Ds didn't get what they wanted and everyone CNN looks like someone choked their new puppy.  But a bunch of idiots went to jail.  Sounds good to me I suppose.  But, I'd really like to have seen some targeting of Democratic operatives here because this was clearly focused.  Or that's how it appears.  I'm not saying that had anything to do with Mueller either, just that if you shook the Clinton Machine tree you'd find a whole lot.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 22, 2019)

Poccington said:


> In fairness to Mueller, he got over *40 mil worth of forfeitures from Manafort* so he actually finished in the green.
> 
> The very definition of government efficiency!




Fact-checked this.  Looks like it checks out.

Mueller's investigation could turn a profit, thanks to Manafort's assets


----------



## AWP (Mar 22, 2019)

The worst thing to come out this is the knowledge the gov't turned a profit. Everyone's going to have a Special Counsel looking at them.


----------



## amlove21 (Mar 22, 2019)

It’s almost over. Sweet baby jeebus it’s slmost over. Glad it was profitable, though. Little swamp drainage for some procedural crimes, little intrigue. 

All around good time!


----------



## Brill (Mar 23, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> I'm not saying that had anything to do with Mueller either, just that if you shook the Clinton Machine tree you'd find a whole lot.



I think it’s just politics. Even major cities across the US are seeing corruption cases at their level.

IMO, the difference here is the FBI and IC were dumb enough to believe the crap in the dossier...or they collectively just used it as an excuse.

Remember, the FBI and DOJ presented evidence and affirmed before a Federal judge...FOUR TIMES...that Carter Page was an agent of a foreign power, a felony. Page has not been charged for any illegal activity.

Democrats are saddened that our POTUS wasn’t controlled by Russia, his campaign wasn’t infiltrated by Russian intelligence officers, and the 2016 election was in fact free and fair.

Think about that.


----------



## Brill (Mar 23, 2019)

Shit. I spoke too soon. Here’s an article that documents new indictments from Mueller.

New Indictments In Mueller’s Final Report


----------



## Salt USMC (Mar 23, 2019)

Holy shit man.  The report hasn't even hit Congress yet and you're already doing a victory lap.  Maybe wait to read it first?


----------



## Brill (Mar 23, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> Holy shit man.  The report hasn't even hit Congress yet and you're already doing a victory lap.  Maybe wait to read it first?



Like the waiting seen during Kavanaugh matter and the Covington kids (I’ll ignore all the other koluzhun fake news like when Trump jr pass WikiLeaks info before after they were public or that Mueller was closing in on Trump)? Nope, new rules.

The victory lap is that our President and his inner circle didn’t conspire to commit treason and obstruct justice, despite the “evidence in plain sight”.

POTUS should declass all the FBI “stuff” and Congress needs to for a select committee to ensure this NEVER happens again, to Democrat or Republican.  Opposition research and dirt should never be used by USG to target an opponent.


----------



## Brill (Mar 23, 2019)

Stories where the reporters waited because the information may or may not be accurate:

Beyond BuzzFeed: The 10 Worst, Most Embarrassing U.S. Media Failures on the Trump-Russia Story

The Left doesn’t get luxury of deciding when to pounce (anti-Republican) and when to wait (pro-Republican).  They lit this dumpster fire, so now they need to put it out vice letting it smolder.


----------



## amlove21 (Mar 23, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> Holy shit man.  The report hasn't even hit Congress yet and you're already doing a victory lap.  Maybe wait to read it first?


I love you for this. It shows you still dare to try and instead of playing identity politics, be an individual rational human although you’re also a leftist SJW from the coast. 

If we wait to actually read the report, we are gonna miss our chance to parrot our sides narrative at top volume. Even though we are gonna be wrong. 

You and I should be *checks the email update every liberal gets* talking about more indictments and how everyone was wrong about that just a day ago. And rape culture? IDK it’s slways on there.


----------



## Brill (Mar 23, 2019)

Gowdy explains why “The Report” is Executive Branch material and the effects of providing investigative materials that do NOT result in charges is pretty shitty.


----------



## Kraut783 (Mar 23, 2019)

Sad that statements like this are sensational...

“By keeping to their code of silence, they were professionals,” Jay said. “They weren’t reacting to the spin. They were doing their jobs. They spoke through a number of indictments. They spoke through a number of sentencing memos.”

There was a time that this was the norm....more so under Mueller than now in the bureau. I have only been working on a bureau task force for 9 years, but I have seen the difference on how the executive management in DC works now than then. Supervision is a problem, for an example...it has become standard for field division SAC's to last only about two years (max) before moving on or retiring, same with ASAC's...you only need about 6 months of ASAC credit to move up to a section chief job then look for a SAC gig, or go for a AD spot in DC. It's just going to get worse as there is going to be a lot of mandatory retirements coming up.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 23, 2019)

In the video @lindy, Adam Schiff has been the biggest POS for over 20 years.


----------



## AWP (Mar 23, 2019)

I'd hoped the report's release could allow us to close 980% of the existing Trump threads. Alas...


----------



## Brill (Mar 23, 2019)

AWP said:


> I'd hoped the report's release could allow us to close 980% of the existing Trump threads. Alas...



We’re just gearing up for 2020 baby!!!!


----------



## Brill (Mar 23, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> Supervision is a problem, for an example...it has become standard for field division SAC's to last only about two years (max) before moving on or retiring, same with ASAC's...you only need about 6 months of ASAC credit to move up to a section chief job then look for a SAC gig, or go for a AD spot in DC. It's just going to get worse as there is going to be a lot of mandatory retirements coming up.



I think Mueller changed the FBI policy that required field 14’s to PCS back to HQS to do their time.  Unfortunately many IC elements are citing this as precedent.


----------



## Devildoc (Mar 23, 2019)

Mueller's may be done, but did Democrats on the house committees are just gearing up. They have all the promised that there are going to be more indictments.  This isn't the end of anything. I think it's the end of the first quarter.


----------



## DA SWO (Mar 23, 2019)

lindy said:


> Shit. I spoke too soon. Here’s an article that documents new indictments from Mueller.
> 
> New Indictments In Mueller’s Final Report


Link doesn't work for me other then the headline and a ton of comments.

Who is getting hooked up next? Podesta maybe?


----------



## Brill (Mar 23, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> Link doesn't work for me other then the headline and a ton of comments.
> 
> Who is getting hooked up next? Podesta maybe?



Yep, it worked (was a blank page).  It was Daily Wire sarcasm.


----------



## Brill (Mar 23, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> Mueller's may be done, but did Democrats on the house committees are just gearing up. They have all the promised that there are going to be more indictments.  This isn't the end of anything. I think it's the end of the first quarter.



Nobody likes you.


----------



## Devildoc (Mar 23, 2019)

lindy said:


> Nobody likes you.



Dude, my kids tell me that every day. You can't hurt me.  

I want this to be the end. My God, I so want this to be the end. But they will drag this out and investigate, obfuscate, calling all sorts of bullshit witnesses to testify.  By God, there is collusion, and they will find a way to prove it.


----------



## Kraut783 (Mar 23, 2019)

lindy said:


> I think Mueller changed the FBI policy that required field 14’s to PCS back to HQS to do their time.  Unfortunately many IC elements are citing this as precedent.



It's actually the opposite....requires people who have only been Supervisory Special Agents (SSA) and Unit Chiefs (UC) at DC go back to the field as SSA's to be eligible to be ASAC's in the field somewhere, then compete for Sections Chiefs positions back at DC. And remember, field SSA positions are only for 7 years, then you have to promote or step out.  Those lucky enough to get a SSA field slot in the office they like, they usually step down because they don't want to move out of the division they like to become a ASAC somewhere.

And field offices only have so many stationary positions they can fill, most are non-stationary positions, meaning they coming from outside the division.

When you see someone of TV who is a Supervisory Special Agent at a HQ unit....he really is a nobody, he is just filling an 18 month TDY in a HQ position, because they can't get people to fill those positions permanently. These SSA positions at CTD and CID (counter Intel) do not get take home cars and do not investigate anything, they just program manage the field. Use to be these 18 month SSA positions gave you a bump, if you were a GS-13 something and went to these 18 month GS-14 positions, when you stepped down you came back at a higher GS-13 grade...making it worth it in the long run. But that program is gone and now there is no real reason to go to these TDY spots, except for experiences and they are having trouble filling these spots, to the point they are thinking of making some kind of allowances to make it worth doing again. Now, if you like being there you can extend or apply for a UC job...but to go higher you need to find a SSA spot in the field, as I previously talked about.

So, you can have an agent who never really worked cases as a case agent, promote up... not make waves and risk a bad climate survey, and move up.

**Sorry to get off the subject, back on track.


----------



## Poccington (Mar 23, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> Well the Ds didn't get what they wanted and everyone CNN looks like someone choked their new puppy.  But a bunch of idiots went to jail.  Sounds good to me I suppose.  But, I'd really like to have seen some targeting of Democratic operatives here because this was clearly focused.  Or that's how it appears.  I'm not saying that had anything to do with Mueller either, just that if you shook the Clinton Machine tree you'd find a whole lot.



It's been mentioned before but Mueller referred Democrat folks to DOJ during his investigation of Manafort. 

Both Tony Podesta and Greg Craig were handed over to SDNY to be investigated over their lobbying work.


----------



## Poccington (Mar 23, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> Mueller's may be done, but did Democrats on the house committees are just gearing up. They have all the promised that there are going to be more indictments.  This isn't the end of anything. I think it's the end of the first quarter.



It's certainly not going to end now that the report has been submitted.

The first big drama will of course be Dems in Congress trying to get the complete report released, rather than an summary by DOJ. That'll most likely end up in a subpoena and subsequent court fight. That's also before the arguments start once the White House attempt to utilise executive privilege.

The next will be that nobody actually knows what the Mueller Report will look like. Special Counsel regs state that the report must explain the reasoning for deciding to prosecute individuals and/or reasoning for deciding not to prosecute individuals. It's also DOJ policy to avoid naming individuals and detailing their behaviour if it wasn't enough to result in a criminal indictment (Unless you're Comey talking about Hillary), which is something Rod Rosenstein reiterated recently. So I think people expecting a report laying out a broad detailing of what exactly, if anything, went on between Russia, Trump linked individuals, the Comey firing etc. could be bitterly disappointed because a lot of the Russia related stuff would be of a CI nature, rather than criminal. So there's a possibility it might not appear at all. 

Which will lead me to the final major drama, Schiff has already said he wants access to the CI side of the investigation. He's also spoken of making Mueller testify to Congress is DOJ decide to not be forthcoming with information.

So the entire shit show will still roll on for years.


----------



## Brill (Mar 23, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> I want this to be the end. My God, I so want this to be the end.



Wiser words have yet to be spoken Doc.


----------



## Brill (Mar 23, 2019)

@Kraut783 , great info! The policy which is often cited as success is the Field Office Supervisor Term Limit Policy.


----------



## Brill (Mar 24, 2019)

Think about this.

Graphic 1. EVERY person here was directly involved in the investigation of Trump collusion. EVERY person, without exception *swore to uphold the Constitution*.  Those that resigned did so to avoid repercussions AFTER the HPSCI and SSCI began their investigation into DOJ.






Graphic 2. Self explanatory. ONLY Gen Flynn swore to uphold the Constitution.


----------



## Kraut783 (Mar 24, 2019)

lindy said:


> @Kraut783 , great info! The policy which is often cited as success is the Field Office Supervisor Term Limit Policy.



In the long run it's wrecking supervision in the field offices...


----------



## Brill (Mar 24, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> In the long run it's wrecking supervision in the field offices...



We are expecting the same effects. Supervisors will come from HQS without local area knowledge of the field.

This investigate for criminal Trump’ing is never going to end.



> He also said it was possible that there had been abuses of power that did not technically constitute a crime.
> 
> On another interview on CNN’s “State of the Union,” Nadler said his committee would use subpoenas, if necessary, to continue gathering information, but he said it would first try to negotiate.



Nadler to DOJ: Don’t hide evidence of Trump wrongdoing

Trump should just sign an EO outlawing the Democrat Party. Oh, wait... breaking on CNN...apparently there’s a former Zimbabwean intelligence officer who has the information that Trump did that very thing while sitting on a secret throne in the White House. Film at 11.


----------



## SpitfireV (Mar 24, 2019)

I think it might be time for everyone to turn their tvs off and go outside for some fresh air.


----------



## CQB (Mar 24, 2019)

Seconded.


----------



## AWP (Mar 24, 2019)

At this point anyone believing/ following a single news source (or even two, maybe three) is a goddamned idiot. You have to piece together the story from 4, 5, 20 different news agencies to even hope to have an idea of what's going on.


----------



## Poccington (Mar 24, 2019)

Barr sent his summary to Congress. Full letter is attached.

In short, Mueller did not establish that Trump or anyone linked to the Trump Campaign knowingly conspired with the Russian Government. In terms of the obstruction Mueller basically said "I'm not touching that shit". Mueller didn't make a decision due to the legal complexities surrounding the President (Can't be indicted, can a President obstruct justice by firing someone etc.) although he specifically stated that Trump has not been exonerated on the obstruction issue.

So yeah, much fighting for access to the full report, investigative materials etc. and probably a Mueller appearance before Congress beckons!


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 24, 2019)

So. Adam Schiff will drive our country to be ever more divided. ugh.


----------



## Poccington (Mar 24, 2019)

It must be pointed out, that after 2 years of accusations of bias, "Witch Hunt!" and almost weekly ranting from gimps like Hannity and Lou Dobbs... Bob Mueller and his team of Angry Democrats conducted a fair and thorough investigation, which followed the facts as they discovered them and ended with a delivery of findings that dealt solely with those facts... All while turning a profit.

They should be commended for a job well done.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 24, 2019)

Poccington said:


> It must be pointed out, that after 2 years of accusations of bias, "Witch Hunt!" and almost weekly ranting from gimps like Hannity and Lou Dobbs... Bob Mueller and his team of Angry Democrats conducted a fair and thorough investigation, which followed the facts as they discovered them and ended with a delivery of findings that dealt solely with those facts... All while turning a profit.
> 
> They should be commended for a job well done.


I disagree with some of this.  Yes the guys on the right ranted about a witch hunt.  Well, the democrats spent two years amongst them hoping Mueller found witches.

Mueller, yep. Actual professionalism, want to come back to the FBI?


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 24, 2019)

Except it was a witch hunt run off of opposition research done by a shady fucker, paid for by the Clinton's and shoved down our throats for 2 years by the Democrat's.  Mueller and his team did their job professionally, not denying that. But everything else that started and guided this shit show to where we are now, is beyond fucked up.  There should be a new investigation into how this shit show even got off the ground and everyone responsible sent in front of a firing squad on the White House lawn and on PPV.  Use the profits to pay down the debt


----------



## amlove21 (Mar 24, 2019)

RackMaster said:


> Except it was a witch hunt run off of opposition research done by a shady fucker, paid for by the Clinton's and shoved down our throats for 2 years by the Democrat's.  Mueller and his team did their job professionally, not denying that. But everything else that started and guided this shit show to where we are now, is beyond fucked up.  There should be a new investigation into how this shit show even got off the ground and everyone responsible sent in front of a firing squad on the White House lawn and on PPV.  Use the profits to pay down the debt


I know the guy that can direct the reality tv show, it’s the only thing he’s good at! 😎


----------



## racing_kitty (Mar 24, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> I know the guy that can direct the reality tv show, it’s the only thing he’s good at! 😎


He’s not that good at it. He never sold me on the concept of reality TV. 😒


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 25, 2019)

I'm amazed that all of the whingeing on my Facebook feed went extinct...or is that the shock?


----------



## amlove21 (Mar 25, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> I'm amazed that all of the whingeing on my Facebook feed went extinct...or is that the shock?


Give it a bit. Republicans skew older, they go to bed earlier. As soon as fox and friends ramps up, it’ll all start again.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 25, 2019)

Funny...of course I was talking about liberals.


----------



## amlove21 (Mar 25, 2019)

ThunderHorse said:


> Funny...of course I was talking about liberals.


Classic misdirection! #Comedy


----------



## Jaknight (Mar 25, 2019)

The left’s reaction to the no collusion is astonishing to me. They actually want Trump to be in bed with Russia? Was this ever about Russia or just Orange man is bad


----------



## amlove21 (Mar 25, 2019)

Jaknight said:


> The left’s reaction to the no collusion is astonishing to me. They actually want Trump to be in bed with Russia? Was this ever about Russia or just Orange man is bad


You answered your own question. Both side's reaction is fucking dumb. If the right really watned to kumbayah it up, they wouldn't be frothing at the mouth for further investigations, they'd be using every bit of cred this gains them (which is considerable) to say, "Ok everyone, this is enough! No more of this stuff. We want to move forward, we said there was no collusion, there was not sufficient evidence to say there was; now, let's get on with the business of 2020!". And they should just repeat that over and over and over again. 

Bringing up the possibility of retroactive investigations and keeping the Mueller investigation going by way of keeping it on the front page of every news source only hurts the right and helps the left. 

Favorite part of all of this- watching everyone who absolutely destroyed Mueller as a person, civil servant and leader of this investigation completely flip flop to "he's a professional and it turns out he was the best person to lead this thing." Fucking hypocrites.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 25, 2019)




----------



## Gordus (Mar 25, 2019)

RackMaster said:


> everyone responsible sent in front of a firing squad on the White House lawn and on PPV.



Remind me to never upset a Canadian with politics.


----------



## amlove21 (Mar 25, 2019)

Gordus said:


> Remind me to never upset a Canadian with politics.


Hey, bro. 

Never upset a Canadian with politics.


----------



## GOTWA (Mar 25, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> Bringing up the possibility of retroactive investigations and keeping the Mueller investigation going by way of keeping it on the front page of every news source only hurts the right and helps the left.



Eh, quite possibly in the early stages, but if nothing comes of it, the right of center base will likely be fired up.  

At the end of the day, the left can't accept they lost, and the right can't accept they won; #clownshoes.


----------



## Brill (Mar 25, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> Give it a bit. Republicans skew older, they go to bed earlier.



I cannot retort because I am they.


----------



## Brill (Mar 25, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> If the right really watned to kumbayah it up, they wouldn't be frothing at the mouth for further investigations, they'd be using every bit of cred this gains them (which is considerable) to say, "Ok everyone, this is enough! No more of this stuff.



Looks like the Right is out for vengeance. I bet Clapper, Brennan, Comey, and McCabe shit themselves last night every time they heard a car door slam.  I imagine some FISC judges weren’t to happy to hear that they’d been lied to.

Next shoe to drop is Horowitz’s report on FISA abuse and Graham, who is still burning mad over Kavanaugh, has pledged to look into the FISA stuff.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 25, 2019)

My facebook feed is like quiet, circa 2015, quiet.  Cupcakes and babies...WILD.


----------



## 757 (Mar 25, 2019)




----------



## Brill (Mar 25, 2019)

Wel, well, well. Very interesting premise: DOJ & IC incompetence DID affect an election...2018 midterms.

Trump-Russia collusion did affect an American election — the one in 2018


----------



## Brill (Mar 25, 2019)

This didn’t age well.



https://www.cnn.com/2017/05/18/politics/white-house-russia-time-cover/index.html

Wonder if Twitter will ban all MSM who spread lies about POTUS?


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 26, 2019)

The President is having a good week....
(turn sound on)





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=2821467861211820


----------



## Brill (Mar 26, 2019)




----------



## DA SWO (Mar 26, 2019)

lindy said:


> Wel, well, well. Very interesting premise: DOJ & IC incompetence DID affect an election...2018 midterms.
> 
> Trump-Russia collusion did affect an American election — the one in 2018


Maybe.
Base was/is pissed that Ryan refused to move bills through the house.
Trump did not campaign for many (any?) House Republicans and I think giving the House up will prove to be a good strategic move for 2020.


----------



## Brill (Mar 27, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> Maybe.
> Base was/is pissed that Ryan refused to move bills through the house.
> Trump did not campaign for many (any?) House Republicans and I think giving the House up will prove to be a good strategic move for 2020.



Very true.


----------



## Brill (Mar 28, 2019)

Former CIA director’s testimony 150 days into Trump’s presidency. Brennan graduated from Fordham and earned Masters from Texas.

Degree = intelligence or mastery of skills at our highest levels?



>


----------



## Salt USMC (Mar 28, 2019)

lindy said:


> Wel, well, well. Very interesting premise: DOJ & IC incompetence DID affect an election...2018 midterms.
> 
> Trump-Russia collusion did affect an American election — the one in 2018


Terminally wrong John Solomon obviously doesn't read the data.  Concerns about the Russia investigation polled consistently at the bottom of concerns for voters in the week before the midterms

Top concerns? 1) Healthcare, 2) The economy, 3) Immigration.  Russia polled right below "Tariffs" and "Climate change"


----------



## Brill (Mar 28, 2019)

Salt USMC said:


> Terminally wrong John Solomon obviously doesn't read the data.  Concerns about the Russia investigation polled consistently at the bottom of concerns for voters in the week before the midterms
> 
> Top concerns? 1) Healthcare, 2) The economy, 3) Immigration.  Russia polled right below "Tariffs" and "Climate change"



Yes, conservative reporters got it all wrong. Obviously.


----------



## Brill (Mar 28, 2019)

Interesting idea from a writer at the Federalist. 

Page was a prominent figure in the dossier and was the subject of a Title 1 FISA, renewed four times.

Manafort, Cohen, and Flynn were also main dossier figures. Were they also targeted via FISA? You figure via two hop rules, that’s the ENTIRE campaign...but Page’s FISA was renewed well into 2017. If there were other’s, extended too?


----------



## Brill (Mar 29, 2019)

Best summary of events all in one place. Epoch Times has consistently questioned the MSMs “reporting” on Spygate.

Spygate: The Inside Story Behind the Alleged Plot to Take Down Trump


----------



## Brill (Mar 29, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> @Box - so, all the whattaboutism aside- you feel that there is absolutely nothing to the Russia investigation? The Trump campaign/administration never used or tried to use Russia to hurt Hillary’s campaign and ultimately help President Trump win?
> 
> Even knowing the facts we do now- the Trump tower meeting, the Russia/Facebook ads, all of it- you truly feel this is nothing more than a concerted political hack job?



Go on...


----------



## Brill (Mar 29, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> Even though there have been 17 charges and 5 guilty pleas? And the longer this goes, the more happens.
> 
> It bears saying- Don Jr met with Russians in a meeting they initially denied because they hoped to gain information to hurt Hillary. When the meeting DIDNT play out like that, members of President Trump’s campaign were visably pissed.
> 
> ...



Because it has always been bullshit but, despite what others tried to explain, you dismissed their viewpoints.


----------



## Brill (Mar 29, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> So, question.
> 
> Why is President Trump _still _calling the Russian election interference issue a "witch hunt" when his DOJ is uncovering (and indicting) more and more Russians for election interference?
> 
> ...



LMAO.


----------



## Brill (Mar 29, 2019)

I think you get my f’ing point.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 29, 2019)

lindy said:


> I think you get my f’ing point.


Is this light hearted sarcasm?  Cause if it is, you may want to you should indicate that somehow.


----------



## amlove21 (Mar 29, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Is this light hearted sarcasm?  Cause if it is, you may want to you should indicate that somehow.


All good, I know the intention. 

@lindy I have said this to you time and again- I won’t engage with you openly on the board. You immediately cry ‘red tag abuse’ any time I tell you you’re acting like a child, but you can’t handle it and turn it in to some abuse of power thing.

I’m telling you again- no matter how badly you want my attention, you’re not getting it. Please go back to the last 10 times you’ve engaged me directly and please note that I haven’t responded. It’s deliberate. 

This isn’t moderation, I don’t need a response, and I don’t value your input or opinion. I don’t need a PM. 

Everyone else, please go on about your business in the thread topic of Russian Interference.


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## Brill (Mar 30, 2019)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Is this light hearted sarcasm?  Cause if it is, you may want to you should indicate that somehow.



No, not at all. I think it’s important for members to understand our collective bias that forms opinions. I also believe new information that confirms or contradicts held opinion should be open for debate.

Being wrong is acceptable and actually GOOD (challenges group think) but maintaining a wrong position despite indicators to the contrary, is precisely how we got into the “mess” we’re in now.


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## Brill (Mar 30, 2019)

amlove21 said:


> All good, I know the intention.
> 
> @lindy I have said this to you time and again- I won’t engage with you openly on the board. You immediately cry ‘red tag abuse’ any time I tell you you’re acting like a child, but you can’t handle it and turn it in to some abuse of power thing.
> 
> ...



I warmly accept your apology. 

I’m at “war” with your opinion and not you: I’m able to separate the two.  My counter posts are not directed at you but the SS community at large.


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## Brill (Mar 31, 2019)

CNN nailed it.

Jake Tapper: CNN Didn’t Get ‘Anything’ Wrong In Russiagate Reporting


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## R.Caerbannog (Mar 31, 2019)

Found a neat pictograph regarding Spygate and I thought I'd share it.

Can't insert image so I guess I'll just link it. It's from the Epoch times, found it on another site.


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## ThunderHorse (Apr 19, 2019)

BUT THEY KEPT TELLING ME TRUMP WOULDN'T TALK TO HIM...


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## Kraut783 (Oct 8, 2019)

As someone who works in this bureau environment...I find this article is way too vague, I have been through several DOJ audits and think they do a good job....I will wait for the actual DOJ IG report.


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## Brill (Oct 9, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> As someone who works in this bureau environment...I find this article is way too vague, I have been through several DOJ audits and think they do a good job....I will wait for the actual DOJ IG report.



This seems to go far beyond query errors but appears to be systemic problems with compliance of laws and policies.  Just like the FISC ruling in 2016 that specifically called out the FBI, the public document is very heavily redacted

Here are the original documents.


__
		https://icontherecord.tumblr.com%2Fpost%2F188217887058



> The FISC found that “*the minimization procedures and querying procedures to be implemented by the FBI are consistent with the requirements of Section 702(e) and Section 702(f)(1)(A)-(B) respectively and of the Fourth Amendment, except insofar as they [were] inconsistent*” with those authorities in two aspects. First, the FISC found that the FBI’s retention of all query terms without differentiating which terms concern U.S. persons did not meet the requirements of Section 702(f)(1)(B) of FISA, a provision enacted as part of the FISA Amendments Reauthorization Act of 2017 requiring the Government to adopt querying procedures that, among other things, “include a technical procedure whereby a record is kept of each United States person query term used for a query.” The FISC concluded that Section 702(f)(1)(B) requires that the FBI’s query records indicate which terms concern U.S. persons.
> 
> The FISC also concluded that the FBI’s querying and minimization procedures, as implemented, were inconsistent with Section 702 and the Fourth Amendment, in light of certain identified compliance incidents involving queries of Section 702 information.



I think the oversight and pending changes will improve the program.


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## Grunt (Oct 27, 2019)

I must say that I now read the "Trump-Russia" writings as my new "comics" for enjoyment rather than seeing it as news!

Some children simply can't move on once they have lost at their game. It's time to move forward since we (US) always do what Russia has been accused of. I would be more interested if the news was about Russia NOT trying to interfere with our elections.


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## Brill (Oct 30, 2019)

Whoa, this is a very serious allegation, if this is the testimony of the LTC. The caveats are due to the secrecy of the inquiry which isn’t or is an inquiry.



> The National Security Council’s top Ukrainian expert testified to the House on Tuesday that key words and phrases were omitted from the transcript that President Trump released of his July 25 call with Ukrainian president Volodymyr Zelensky.




Vindman Testimony Alleges White House Left Key Details out of Trump-Zelensky Call Transcript | National Review


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## ThunderHorse (Oct 31, 2019)

lindy said:


> #1 best seller in books...hmmmm
> 
> The Plot Against the President: The True Story of How Congressman Devin Nunes Uncovered the Biggest Political Scandal in U.S. History: Lee Smith: 9781546085027: Amazon.com: Books


Remember when it used to take years to get a book published?  How agents would say no thanks en masse?  I guess today is not that day.


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## Kaldak (Oct 31, 2019)

I have a book...or ramblings...I need to be published!


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## Brill (Nov 19, 2019)

FBI’s Office of Professional Responsibility released its finding on why Strozk was fired.  It’s worth noting he and “GA” (Page) were both on the Senior payscale. Keep this in mind as we hear MSM breathlessly talk about “irregularities“ in the Trump admin dealings with Ukraine.

Strzok v Barr/DOJ; DE 30-5


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## Brill (Dec 14, 2019)

The early posts in this thread, especially the posts openly mocking the opinions of the “this Russia thing doesn’t make sense” crowd, are pure fucking gold.

It ain’t over folks. Now that we know, definitively, the Trump-Russia (CROSSFIRE HURRICANE) thing was not in accordance with DOJ policies and procedures and included fraud, the next shoe to drop will the the predicate.

Was there enough FACTUAL articulable cause for the FBI to initiate an investigation, which suspended the 4th Amendment protections of specific Americans?

In order for the predicate to be legit, Halper MUST be impeccable and beyond reproach and Mifsud MUST be a Russian intelligence asset. Keep in mind the SAME sources that are telling us that Steele, the Dossier, FBI, and the entire CF case was “impeccable and beyond reproach”.

Prepare for the predicate, FBI investigation, Mueller’s investigation, and domestic turmoil since summer 2016 to be 100% fraud upon the American people and our collective values of a freedom. *Regardless of your political ideology, vote*...get family, friends, and neighbors to vote. Get involved, understand local issues, support your candidates, etc.

Gen Washington apparently foresaw this:



”...to my astonishment I saw the great George Washington on his knees alone, with his sword on one side and his cocked hat on the other. He was at Prayer to the God of the Armies, beseeching to interpose with his Divine aid, as it was ye Crisis and the cause of the country, of humanity, and of the world.”


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