# Which piston gun?



## AssadUSMC (Feb 16, 2010)

OK, so I am finally going to order my rifle this weekend and I am just seeking some advice (agreement?) before I drop a couple grand.  I am about 99% sure I want a piston (vs. impingement) gun.

Right now, the order will be an LWRCi M6A2 DEA version (it has some upgrades over the standard M6A2) with 14.7" barrel.  Should I pop for the M6A3 instead?  I don't plan on suppressing it after all, so the multi-position gas selector might be irrelevant.

I've also looked at Noveske and LMT, but Noveske doesn't have a piston gun and LMT's piston gun is like a unicorn to find.  Knight's is out since our work guns are KAC SR-15s and we've had problems.  I'd love to buy a 416, but they are not available in semi-auto (complete gun, not an upper).

Any advice/input/suggestions are welcome...  Thanks


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## HOLLiS (Feb 16, 2010)

M1A1 is a great piston gun.  :)   N ow for civie use, why a piston over impingement.


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## The91Bravo (Feb 16, 2010)

I would like to know how this thread plays out also.  Since everyone has a piston gun out there now.


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## 8'Duece (Feb 16, 2010)

LWRC M6A2 is a self regulating gas system, as is the LMT MRP piston upper. 

Both are fantastic weapons.  The LMT is a bit easier to break down the op rod, but not much than the LWRC M6 series.  

For civillian use GI is fine.  I just liked the LWRC and the piston since I don't care for cleaning BCGs and bolts and extractors everytime I fire 100 rounds through the damn thing. Call me lazy. 

I'm not interested in retro fit parts for GI gun into a piston gun.  I also don't care for the POF stuff.  Their funky looking to boot and I know of at least one op rod that broke during a carbine class with a POF gun. 

Surprisingly the Ruger SR556 piston gun is one hell of a nice rifle.  Cold hammer forged barrel, chrome lined Mil-Spce 41V45, Troy quad rail with Troy rail covers, 4 position chome plated gas regulator, chrome plated bolt carrier and bolt front and rear Troy flip ups, chrome plated 2 stage gas piston operating system and of course the 6 position telscoping butt stock (Mil Spec)


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## 8'Duece (Feb 16, 2010)

I would like to add that LWRC M6A2 DEA is only different in the hider.  The DEA model comes with the Phantom and not an A2 Birdcage.  They throw in a sling and a padded case with the LWRC logo.  That's the only difference. 

I also am confused as to the four position gas regulator on the M6A3 series.  The self regulating requires no adjustments for suppressed or no suppressed or commercial loads vs tactical loads in the 6.8 SPC gun.  Don't know why they insisted on a different gas regulator for the M6A3, but someone smarter than me can possibly answer that question.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 16, 2010)

Impingement = more accurate and Piston = more reliable. I am accuracy driven and the impingement is more then reliable enough for me. Also the piston will reduce the longevity of accuracy in the barrel, where impingement causes more wear on the bolt carrier group. 

My personal thoughts are that it boils down to "cool guy factor" if you run a piston you are part of the cool kids, if you run impingement you will make the cool guy feel stupid for wasting all his money. 

All of the rifles you posted are GTG, and you will be more then happy with any of them. If it were me I would go with a Noveske N4 (gas impingement).


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## 8'Duece (Feb 17, 2010)

J.A.B. said:


> Impingement = more accurate and Piston = more reliable. I am accuracy driven and the impingement is more then reliable enough for me. Also the piston will reduce the longevity of accuracy in the barrel, where impingement causes more wear on the bolt carrier group.
> 
> My personal thoughts are that it boils down to "cool guy factor" if you run a piston you are part of the cool kids, if you run impingement you will make the cool guy feel stupid for wasting all his money.
> 
> All of the rifles you posted are GTG, and you will be more then happy with any of them. If it were me I would go with a Noveske N4 (gas impingement).




With the LWRC cold hammer forged and NiCor treatment you get 100% more accuracy than a Mil Spec barrel, not to mention about 10 times the service life of the Legacy gas impingement. 

2 MOA @ 100 meters with my 6.8 SPC LWRC with SSA Sierra 115 grain OTM.  With the SSA 77 Grain 5.56 OTM is about the same at that same distance.  I'd say that beats any Mil Spec barrel in service today.


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## HOLLiS (Feb 17, 2010)

I am sort of with JAB on this.   There is a difference between the two, but it is not as big as people would like to make it seem as big.  There is some "Wow is it new and groovy" factor.   Gas piston has been around for a long time.   The ones already out there all have a common problem,  they still need to be cleaned and the gas piston is often ignored.  If you got the money, but what turns you on.  Everything out there is built on a compromise.  There are pros and cons to everything.  The most important factor is the shooter.


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## 8'Duece (Feb 17, 2010)

J.A.B. said:


> . Also the piston will reduce the longevity of accuracy in the barrel.



This is an incorrect statement. 

LWRCI™ rifles and carbines utilize cold hammer forged barrels made out of 41V45 steel alloy and treated with NiCorr™ surface conversion technology. Cold hammer forging takes an oversized barrel blank, and using high pressure rotary hammers, compacts the barrel blank over a mandrel. This forms perfect rifling devoid of tool marks. It also compacts the molecular structure of the metal making it denser and stronger. These barrels can take a lot more use and abuse than a standard barrel before any degradation in accuracy or loss of velocity. NiCorr™ surface conversion has proved more lubricious, harder wearing, more heat and corrosion resistant than the hard chrome normally used in the bore. Our barrels can handle 20,000 rounds before replacement, as compared to 6,000-10,000 rounds on a standard M4.


How exactly does a piston system reduce accuracy and service life then ??


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## Mac_NZ (Feb 17, 2010)

Buy an Aug, it has a piston and you can tell civvys its a plasma rifle with a 40 watt range.


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## 7point62 (Feb 17, 2010)

Though the thread needed some porn


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## HOLLiS (Feb 17, 2010)

^^^ Excellent Call....................    Those are just purdy.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 17, 2010)

8'Duece said:


> With the LWRC cold hammer forged and NiCor treatment you get 100% more accuracy than a Mil Spec barrel, not to mention about 10 times the service life of the Legacy gas impingement.
> 
> 2 MOA @ 100 meters with my 6.8 SPC LWRC with SSA Sierra 115 grain OTM.  With the SSA 77 Grain 5.56 OTM is about the same at that same distance.  I'd say that beats any Mil Spec barrel in service today.



I have consistently gotten 1MOA at 100 yards out of rack grade (Mil spec) 1/7 NATO barrels with MK262. The bigger issues with rack grade barrels are the protection of the crown (keeping Joe from gouging it up with a cleaning rod). 

I have no experience with the 6.8 SPC, but I have heard of subMOA groups from LWRC M6, but I am not sure on the ammo that was used.

The main issue is not how it comes from the factory but how it holds up in use. The piston system is more reliable then gas impingement and I would never argue that is not. But the accuracy and accuracy longevity is not better with a piston system. The primary issue is the buildup of carbon in the business end of the barrel and the erosion of the gas porthole caused by the gas regulator.



8'Duece said:


> This is an incorrect statement.
> 
> LWRCI™ rifles and carbines utilize cold hammer forged barrels made out of 41V45 steel alloy and treated with NiCorr™ surface conversion technology. Cold hammer forging takes an oversized barrel blank, and using high pressure rotary hammers, compacts the barrel blank over a mandrel. This forms perfect rifling devoid of tool marks. It also compacts the molecular structure of the metal making it denser and stronger. These barrels can take a lot more use and abuse than a standard barrel before any degradation in accuracy or loss of velocity. NiCorr™ surface conversion has proved more lubricious, harder wearing, more heat and corrosion resistant than the hard chrome normally used in the bore. Our barrels can handle 20,000 rounds before replacement, as compared to 6,000-10,000 rounds on a standard M4.
> 
> ...



You can believe what you want buba, I tested the HK416 and we had the same problem that two of my best friends M6 carbines are having now, that the accuracy is notably diminished after around 3000 rounds. This is not something new to the gas piston world; it’s been the problem with the AK series and M1/M14 series rifles. 

I am sure the LWRC barrels are better then the standard Wilson rack grades and I have no doubt that the LWRC barrel will last longer. But you are comparing two different levels of accuracy and two different gas systems. Take a LWRC barrel and put gas impingement on it and you can see the difference in the accuracy levels I am talking about.

Don’t take my word for it; ask some of the trainers out there who are testing these rifles on the civilian side. Talk to the competitive side and ask them if they are noticing less accuracy in the pistons vs the impingement. I did not make it up bro, I am just passing on the experience of my self and the people I know.

All that being said, the standard for a mil issue M4 with M855 ammo is 3MOA. The 416’s we tested all stayed with in this standard and maintain better reliability then the M4’s we tested next to them. For a room broom, I would take a gas piston over impingement. But being the accuracy driven person I am, my personal money will go with gas impingment.


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## Cabbage Head (Feb 17, 2010)

7point62 said:


> Though the thread needed some porn


 
Nice gun porn!  Love my REPR..   More impressed with how easy to clean.


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## AssadUSMC (Feb 18, 2010)

I considered the Noveske but it seems as if the wait time is interminable...

http://noveskerifleworks.com/cgi-bi...clpv-556&cat=47&page=1&search=&since=&status=






I am likely going with a piston gun because I like the technology.  AKs, FALs, etc. are renowned for their reliability.  As a long-time M16/M4 user (abuser?), I've seen way to much stuff go wrong.  I can't blame it all on gas impingement, but a good deal of it was because of a fouled key, bent gas tube, etc. (not always my doing).  I am meticulous about maintaining my rifle, but the comfort in knowing it'll keep running without constant cleaning is good.

Keep the comments coming - you may convince me yet to change my mind!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 18, 2010)

Something else to think about when talking piston, is the amount of different systems out there and the ability to get replacement parts. There is defiantly a corner on the market when it comes to each system. Basically means you are going to have to go through the maker for any parts vs being able to stop at any gunsmith or AR parts retailer.

I am not all down on the pistons, I think the idea is GTG but think there is still a lot to be desired. In a few years if the piston craze keeps up, I think the market will shift and some true “Mil specs” will be developed for piston systems. Once that happens you better hope the system they choose is the one you have, or you will have that much more trouble finding the right parts. 

As for the issues of cost effectiveness, a gas tube is not a lot and is easy to replace.  A bolt gas key is a simple fix and cheap to buy. Those are pretty much the only parts gas impingement systems you are going have trouble with (if you have trouble). With the piston you have op-rods, gas regulator, different bolt key ect. All parts are going to have to come from the factory and all parts are 3 to 4 times more then a standard GI system. 

Just some food for thought…


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## pardus (Feb 18, 2010)

I will always go for a piston over a GI rifle.

I was brought up with pistons and they have the most important feature of a battle rifle, reliability.
If if doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger what's the point?

As for accuracy, that is a non issue for me with a battle rifle, i'm not a sniper, i'll be pulling the trigger till the prick hits the ground, then I'll be adding a few more for good measure.
Beside how much more accurate is a GI rifle really?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 18, 2010)

pardus said:


> I will always go for a piston over a GI rifle.
> 
> I was brought up with pistons and they have the most important feature of a battle rifle, reliability.
> If if doesn't go bang when you pull the trigger what's the point?
> ...


 
Very good point of view, and I agree for a basic battle rifle the piston system is accurate enough. The same can be said for the reliability as well, the Piston system really only shines past 750+ rounds. It would be one hell of a day if you are shooting more then 750 rounds in your battle rifle before cleaning again. My lean towards GI is parts available and mainly accuracy, but I am a competitive fuck and want all the accuracy I can get in any firearm. Thats why I stopped shooting high power matches with a M14 and started shooting with a NM AR15.


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## lefty2 (Feb 18, 2010)

Does it have to be 5.56?  Why not 7.62 and get a M1A?  Also you can get the wood stock and knock the @#$% out of someone if that be the case:)


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## pardus (Feb 18, 2010)

J.A.B. said:


> Very good point of view, and I agree for a basic battle rifle the piston system is accurate enough. The same can be said for the reliability as well, the Piston system really only shines past 750+ rounds. It would be one hell of a day if you are shooting more then 750 rounds in your battle rifle before cleaning again. My lean towards GI is parts available and mainly accuracy, but I am a competitive fuck and want all the accuracy I can get in any firearm. Thats why I stopped shooting high power matches with a M14 and started shooting with a NM AR15.


 
Back at you with the good points mate.


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## HOLLiS (Feb 18, 2010)

J.A.B. said:


> Thats why I stopped shooting high power matches with a M14 and started shooting with a NM AR15.


 
M14 rocks,   I did a shoot once,   a 2 by 3 foot target with a M1A1 (civie M14) Iron sights in about 10 seconds hit the target 4 out of five times.  

(For the doubters, I have a witness who is in 5th Group)


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 18, 2010)

HOLLiS said:


> M14 rocks,   I did a shoot once,   a 2 by 3 foot target with a M1A1 (civie M14) Iron sights in about 10 seconds hit the target 4 out of five times.
> 
> (For the doubters, I have a witness who is in 5th Group)


 
I agree the M14 is the shit, I started shooting HP and Long Range on a SA (NM) M1A1. The NM AR's are more accurate and easier to handel IMO. When X's are the difference in winning and all that. 

One of my last SDM classes I taught, I fired 10 round strings from the 800-900-1000yd lines with my NM AR15 using AMU 80gr rounds and stayed 1MOA. The (NM) M14's will pretty close to the same when new, but after a few cleanings and about 1500rds on the barrel its a wiled guess...


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## AssadUSMC (Feb 18, 2010)

I'm getting a 5.56 rifle this time since I get lots of opportunities to shoot 5.56 on Uncle Sam's nickel.  Down the road I want an M1A Scout (the SOCOMs are too heavy), but that'll be a discretionary purchase.  What I REALLY want is a 416, but alas those have to stay at work.

J.A.B. - Good points about parts.  A mil-spec piston gun would be a great thing (esp. if HK unfucks themselves and lets us have 416s).  Whatever I end up buying (assuming a piston gun), I'll inquire about a spare parts kit (and/or armorer's kit).


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 18, 2010)

AssadUSMC said:


> J.A.B. - Good points about parts.  A mil-spec piston gun would be a great thing (esp. if HK unfucks themselves and lets us have 416s).  Whatever I end up buying (assuming a piston gun), I'll inquire about a spare parts kit (and/or armorer's kit).


 
Your in luck bro, HK just came out with the MR556 the civi 416...

http://www.hk-usa.com/civilian_products/mr556_general.asp


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## pardus (Feb 18, 2010)

J.A.B. said:


> Your in luck bro, HK just came out with the MR556 the civi 416...
> 
> http://www.hk-usa.com/civilian_products/mr556_general.asp


 
I have to go change my pants now


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## AssadUSMC (Feb 19, 2010)

Yeah I know about the MR but it's not in production yet and it won't be a German-made gun.  I know it shouldn't matter, but I still prefer German-made German guns...

Going in for the kill tomorrow - it's just an order, but I'll post plenty of gun pr0n when I get it.  I might pick up the .45 I'm lusting for tomorrow as well. :)


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## AssadUSMC (Feb 20, 2010)

Well I went outside the box (because I didn't realize what existed out there)...  I picked up a SCAR-L (aka SCAR 16S) and a Kimber Desert Warrior today.  So stoked - I'll post pics shortly.


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## AssadUSMC (Feb 20, 2010)

Pics as promised:


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 20, 2010)

Now that is some nice kit right there. I am a big Kimber fan and that SCAR is freakin sexy looking…


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## 8'Duece (Feb 21, 2010)

Great looking weapons and gear.  Nice purchases.


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## AssadUSMC (Feb 23, 2010)

8'Duece said:


> Great looking weapons and gear.  Nice purchases.


 
Thank you sir!


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## 8'Duece (Feb 23, 2010)

AssadUSMC said:


> Thank you sir!



Nothing like the feeling of new firearms in your hands.  It's even better than a new car.


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## AssadUSMC (Mar 13, 2010)

Shot the SCAR and Desert Warrior today.  The reciprocating bolt on the SCAR has forced me to change my forward grip (I am usually holding onto the receiver).  I might have to go with a vertical grip or just retrain my muscle memory to this new way.  The recoil impulse is very odd.  It's a nice slow push - absolutely ZERO muzzle climb.  It's much softer recoiling than even the 416.  I was very surprised.  With the muzzle brake that's on it, it is LOUD.  My factory sights were about 3 quarter-turns of the front sight low.  Easy fix, but I was surprised they were that far off.  The iron sights will just be for backup, since I'm probably putting an EO-Tech or ACOG on it soon.

The Kimber was REALLY nice.  It's been a long time since I've fired a full-size, steel-framed 1911 (my other 1911 is a Colt Lightweight Commander with a bunch of work).  They are so smooth.  It was immediately accurate - no adjustments required.  Follow-up shots were good.  I may swap to one of those fiber optic orange front sights since picking it up was a little difficult.  My buddy's HK45 was much easier to find the front sight.

Overall, good day.  Both guns work and both shoot (reasonably) where I want them to.  The Kimber DW will go back in my nightstand after a thorough cleaning, stoked with 230-grain Golden Sabers. :)


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