# Training Options



## The Hate Ape (Nov 9, 2017)

Got forced into an incident the other night that could have gone south really quickly and realized this morning that I haven't done anything to touch up on the perishable skills of putting a bitch on his head. As a teenager I dabbled heavily between Judo, Boxing, and Wrestling - 

I'd like to look up some local clubs in my area and find a reputable place to get back up to par. Judo seems like a natural fit for getting a threat to the ground quickly and is my currently numero uno training selection. I'll be moving out to California early nex

MY QUESTION:
I ruled out BJJ as it seems a bit complex with chained-maneuvers that do not really serve the speed and veracity that I'd like to achieve - does anyone agree with this notion? My additional thoughts are that Judo works chokes, strikes, and manipulations (probably less than BJJ but still effective).


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## CDG (Nov 9, 2017)

Depends on the BJJ gym you attend.  Some are more sport jiu jitsu focused.  The one I attend includes self-defense work, as well "Jiu Jitsu for MMA" classes that are more relevant to an actual street fight.  I would talk to the instructor and let him know what you're looking to get out of it, and see what that gym trains.  The other thing I will say about BJJ is that it teaches you what to do once you're on the ground.  Takedowns are great, but if you don't know what to do in the scramble that follows you might end up in trouble.  Finally, depending on where you are moving in California, you may be able to find a place that trains Combat Jiu Jitsu.  The 10th Planet gyms owned by Eddie Bravo are doing this, AFAIK.  It's kind of a hybrid where palm strikes are allowed once the fight goes to the ground.


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## The Hate Ape (Nov 10, 2017)

Yeah 10th Planet is kind of my initial thought - one of their name brand fighters is PJ Barch who I went to High School with and we stayed in touch a bit. That kid is a fucking MONSTER in the No Gi competition scene - I'll be looking forward to hitting his gym.

When I see BJJ in execution, there's a lot of ground dedication - I see what youre saying about putting in work post-takedown but my initial and layman's response is that I do not appreciate how vulnerable that individual is to other attackers. BLUF is that I'm Judo/Boxing BIAS'd but atleast I'll admit the shit. BJJ looks like a lot of fucking fun though (side note).


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## CDG (Nov 10, 2017)

I'm not sure what martial art you would use for multiple attackers, but I haven't seen it yet.  I mentioned the post takedown work because you initially brought up judo for the takedown speed.  Most fights end up on the ground, which is why I think BJJ is such a great tool to have available.  If a dude's buddies are watching and thinking about jumping in, you breaking his arm and popping back up to your feet is a pretty strong statement.


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## Kakashi66223 (Nov 10, 2017)

@CDG  I must have read your mind.

Yes sir. In California I'd be worried more about getting blindsided by a guy in a crowd who I didn't know was in the fight. What ever you pick discipline wise; speed and intensity, and look for that guy.

Krav Maga reminds me of the old MC line training.


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## Teufel (Nov 10, 2017)

CDG said:


> I'm not sure what martial art you would use for multiple attackers, but I haven't seen it yet.  I mentioned the post takedown work because you initially brought up judo for the takedown speed.  Most fights end up on the ground, which is why I think BJJ is such a great tool to have available.  If a dude's buddies are watching and thinking about jumping in, you breaking his arm and popping back up to your feet is a pretty strong statement.



What martial art works best for multiple opponents? A shotgun. The end.


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## sah2117 (Nov 10, 2017)

CDG said:


> I'm not sure what martial art you would use for multiple attackers, but I haven't seen it yet.  I mentioned the post takedown work because you initially brought up judo for the takedown speed.  Most fights end up on the ground, which is why I think BJJ is such a great tool to have available.  If a dude's buddies are watching and thinking about jumping in, you breaking his arm and popping back up to your feet is a pretty strong statement.


Atienza Kali is a good option that trains for defending against multiple attackers. They also train how to attack as part of a group.


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## CDG (Nov 10, 2017)

sah2117 said:


> Atienza Kali is a good option that trains for defending against multiple attackers. They also train how to attack as part of a group.



There are plenty of martial arts that claim to be effective against multiple attackers.  Real life isn't the movies where the bad guys patiently wait to attack one at a time, and I don't put any stock in people who claim to be able to successfully defend against a true multiple person attack with their ninja moves.


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## leonrazurado (Nov 10, 2017)

I train BJJ primarily, and Judo and boxing once or twice a week on top of that. I've never boxed on the street, but I routinely use throws and pins (Judo) and submissions (except chokeholds). From my experiences, you don't need to have perfect takedowns or throws, as speed and violence can more than make up for it. Once I'm on the ground, BJJ reigns supreme, even when opponents try everything in their power to fight back or get up on their feet. Usually, I don't need much past positional control since I'm not trying to cause serious bodily injury.

This is in police work, where my back up is never more than 5 minutes away if I need it, and if I'm walking into a bad situation, I usually have at least one other guy/gal with me.

ETA: all my Judo buddies train BJJ.


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## Salt USMC (Nov 11, 2017)

The best investment you can make for fighting multiple opponents is running shoes.

If BJJ isn't your cup of tea, just train double legs all day.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 11, 2017)

It's San Diego...but this is Jocko's gym: San Diego MMA | Victory Gyms - Victory MMA and Fitness San Diego


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## sah2117 (Nov 11, 2017)

CDG said:


> There are plenty of martial arts that claim to be effective against multiple attackers.  Real life isn't the movies where the bad guys patiently wait to attack one at a time, and I don't put any stock in people who claim to be able to successfully defend against a true multiple person attack with their ninja moves.


Fair enough. I agree that no method is guaranteed to successfully defend against a real world mass attack. However, I do believe that training even against a simulated version of such an attack can be beneficial to your mental and physical state should something like that occur, and could mean the difference between life and death. That side of training shouldn’t be neglected just because the odds aren’t in your favor. Atienza Kali and Krav Maga are the only forms that I’m aware of that train for this and are applicable to a real life scenario.


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## The Hate Ape (Nov 12, 2017)

Yeah, I'm not aiming to be Jack Reacher but I appreciate the feedback from everyone. Definitely debunked some of the misconceptions I had over BJJ. @Teufel feel free to be the guy in our group that carries around a shotgun though.


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## Teufel (Nov 12, 2017)

Bet you wouldn’t have to deal with multiple attacker’s if I did!


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## Jaygo (Nov 14, 2017)

BJJ is great for ONE guy. If you're able to bridge in Judo that's another huge bonus. I've been bouncing for a minute and pepper spray has saved my ass a few times when I've been out numbered. Unless you're going against prior service or law enforcement, chances are they have no exposure to it. Most will puss out once that "oh shit" factor hits them and helps put the odds in your favor.

If your intention isn't to defend someone or an establishment, Salt's advice on running shoes is definitely your best option.


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## The Hate Ape (Nov 14, 2017)

I have no problem carrying pepper spray on my key chain just in-case my girlfriend borrows my car...

Kidding; but on a more serious note some of you are a little lost in the discussion. We already know that exiting a situation safely is optimal, as is a grenade in a crowded room of evil-doers. The idea here is to get advice on the training disciplines that best provide a foundation of confidence, effectiveness, and reliability during the application of physical & unarmed violence.

Based on the responses, BJJ reads to be a winner here - one gym owner I spoke with over the weekend hosts a pretty popular location with my unit and includes a fancy discount & unlimited classes. Additionally, all of his classes begin or end with about 15 minutes of Judo disciplines (mostly throws) as I was unaware that BJJ was actually born from a Judo.


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## BloodStripe (Nov 14, 2017)

Krav Maga?


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## The Hate Ape (Nov 14, 2017)

I don't know, Krav Maga from my layman's perspective seems pretty intense and I doubt there are any legitimate training locations besides in the movie Roadhouse. I feel that the training environment would depend on intensity and borderline real-life so instruction quality might be poor otherwise. 

To summarize, I'm confident I would receive better BJJ/Judo & Boxing Instruction than I would in Krav Maga.


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## CDG (Nov 14, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> I have no problem carrying pepper spray on my key chain just in-case my girlfriend borrows my car...
> 
> Kidding; but on a more serious note some of you are a little lost in the discussion. We already know that exiting a situation safely is optimal, as is a grenade in a crowded room of evil-doers. The idea here is to get advice on the training disciplines that best provide a foundation of confidence, effectiveness, and reliability during the application of physical & unarmed violence.
> 
> Based on the responses, BJJ reads to be a winner here - one gym owner I spoke with over the weekend hosts a pretty popular location with my unit and includes a fancy discount & unlimited classes. Additionally, all of his classes begin or end with about 15 minutes of Judo disciplines (mostly throws) *as I was unaware that BJJ was actually born from a Judo*.



Yep. WAY back in the day (19th Century) when Judo was thought to be the supreme form of martial arts, this dude who taught classical jiu jitsu challenged the predominant judo academy to a series of matches.  The jiu jitsu fighters won every match by submitting the judo players. So the judo guys invited the jiu jitsu guys to start teaching ground fighting at their academy. Mitsuyo Maeda is the one responsible for bringing jiu jitsu to the Gracies back in the 1920s, and then the Gracies took the ball and are still running with it.  Here's a good read on the history of it all.

History of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu


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## CDG (Nov 14, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> I don't know, Krav Maga from my layman's perspective seems pretty intense and I doubt there are any legitimate training locations besides in the movie Roadhouse. I feel that the training environment would depend on intensity and borderline real-life so instruction quality might be poor otherwise.
> 
> To summarize, I'm confident I would receive better BJJ/Judo & Boxing Instruction than I would in Krav Maga.



Krav Maga is very hit or miss.  If you find a school that is ICCS (Israeli Contact Combat System) certified, then you know you are getting top quality training.  Outside of that, who knows.  One of the other things I like most about training BJJ is that I can do it 6 days a week and be pretty much ok.  Definitely tired, maybe sore hands, etc., but you're not getting  the shit beat out of you like if you train striking or judo throws all the time.  Injuries still happen of course, but BJJ is more sustainable IMHO.


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## The Hate Ape (Nov 14, 2017)

CDG said:


> Krav Maga is very hit or miss.  If you find a school that is ICCS (Israeli Contact Combat System) certified, then you know you are getting top quality training.  Outside of that, who knows.  One of the other things I like most about training BJJ is that I can do it 6 days a week and be pretty much ok.  Definitely tired, maybe sore hands, etc., but you're not getting  the shit beat out of you like if you train striking or judo throws all the time.  Injuries still happen of course, but BJJ is more sustainable IMHO.



Love your input - is there a way of vetting ICCS certifications as a customer?


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## TLDR20 (Nov 14, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> I have no problem carrying pepper spray on my key chain just in-case my girlfriend borrows my car...
> 
> Kidding; but on a more serious note some of you are a little lost in the discussion. We already know that exiting a situation safely is optimal, as is a grenade in a crowded room of evil-doers. The idea here is to get advice on the training disciplines that best provide a foundation of confidence, effectiveness, and reliability during the application of physical & unarmed violence.
> 
> Based on the responses, BJJ reads to be a winner here - one gym owner I spoke with over the weekend hosts a pretty popular location with my unit and includes a fancy discount & unlimited classes. Additionally, all of his classes begin or end with about 15 minutes of Judo disciplines (mostly throws) as I was unaware that BJJ was actually born from a Judo.



I take Gracie combatives. The first 15 minutes of every class is a takedown. We then spend the last 45 minutes of class on ground work.


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## BloodStripe (Nov 14, 2017)

What you need to do is tie it to your job performance and see if the Marine Corps would pay to bring instructors to you.


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## Gunz (Nov 14, 2017)

I used to get in my share of trouble back in the day because A. I didn't like getting fucked with and B. most of the bars I frequented had the bathroom mirrors removed to prevent them from being used as weapons. Juke box, pool tables, slutty bartender...I'm there.

So, I've formed some theories about civilian attackers based on certain nefarious experiences. Drunks, road-ragers and punks in a group. Those are the types most likely to take a poke. And since most people are right-handed, most of the time it's a right hook. So I was always prepared for a big right hook, unless the guy set up lefty.

Bottom line is, I never took martial arts but I learned to come inside that big right hook with my forehead into his face or a palm strike under the chin or even an arm wrap takedown followed by a knee drop.

Can't do it anymore so I carry a 1911. I'd carry a shotgun if I could fit it in my pants.


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## CDG (Nov 14, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> Love your input - is there a way of vetting ICCS certifications as a customer?



I was looking into a Krav Maga gym when I was living in Oklahoma City, and they had the ICCS certification claimed on their website.  Outside of that, the ICCS website maintains the official list of ICCS instructors worldwide. 

Link:  iccs


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## TLDR20 (Nov 14, 2017)

CDG said:


> I was looking into a Krav Maga gym when I was living in Oklahoma City, and they had the ICCS certification claimed on their website.  Outside of that, the ICCS website maintains the official list of ICCS instructors worldwide.
> 
> Link:  iccs



Are you doing Gracie Combatives or straight BJJ?


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## CDG (Nov 15, 2017)

TLDR20 said:


> Are you doing Gracie Combatives or straight BJJ?



It's not official Gracie Combatives, but we do do some striking/self-defense work.  Mostly straight BJJ though.


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## amlove21 (Nov 23, 2017)

So, oddly enough, one of the students asked myself and our other combatives instructor, "So I have never fought or anything- if I was just starting out what would you guys advise I do?"

Both our answers were "BJJ". Body control, adrenaline control and heart rate management, self protection etc, all great things you get out of training BJJ, for the other reasons mentioned. 

The other combatives instructor that day is a freaking world famous fight coach, so his opinion matters (not so much mine) but I am throwing my lot in with BJJ for a base as well.


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## r.nitrogen (Oct 25, 2018)

I recently found a gym in my area that offers a wide variety of self-defense disciplines, with a subscription-based payment plan and a buffet-style schedule of courses every month.  For instance, any given month might be 

*week 1:* M- Krav Maga 6-8 pm / 
T- Kickboxing 6-8 pm / 
W- Krav Maga 5-7 pm and Grappling 7-8 PM / 
Th- Kickboxing 6-8 pm _or _Facing Armed Attackers 5-8 PM / 
F- Advanced Krav Maga 5-8 pm _or _Krav Maga 6-8 pm

I'm not sure if this 'stew' of techniques (Krav Maga is the main focus with about 70% of all time being devoted to it, but kickboxing, Muay Thai, MMA, grappling/Judo and Boxing are all featured) is an intelligent way to learn self defense, or if it would be more prudent to find a gym that focuses on one combative technique, i.e. BJJ, Muay Thai, Krav Maga.... and stick to that.  Any input from you gents more experienced in this?


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## amlove21 (Oct 25, 2018)

@r.nitrogen I don’t see an issue with what you have listed. What’s your overall goal? Just to have a bigger toolbox as far as self defense is concerned?


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## The Hate Ape (Nov 1, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> So, oddly enough, one of the students asked myself and our other combatives instructor, "So I have never fought or anything- if I was just starting out what would you guys advise I do?"
> 
> Both our answers were "BJJ". Body control, adrenaline control and heart rate management, self protection etc, all great things you get out of training BJJ, for the other reasons mentioned.
> 
> The other combatives instructor that day is a freaking world famous fight coach, so his opinion matters (not so much mine) but I am throwing my lot in with BJJ for a base as well.


100% agree.

Thread revival / update:

I've since made the jump to the SoCal life. My apartment complex is only a block or two from a notable Gracie gym - noteworthy enough where one of the instructors has been in BJJ in America for almost 30 years now. For those of you in the know, this is when Rorian Gracie was just coming out like that dude from MyPillow introducing his father's discipline to Martial Artists and armchair badasses.

It has been a genuine pleasure to learn from a man, who self admittedly, was buying a pair of nun-chucks at a pawn shop when Rorian made his street pitch to him and a group of hippies.

"If you signed up for his classes you got a free T-Shirt, so I figured I'd give it a go" he said laughing.

We sat for about an hour before class started while he walked me through his times with all the Gracie family, all the people he's met (big john mcarthy, joe rogan, all those hip people) to include but certainly not least, getting choked out while in the mount by master helio himself. Really humble guy, top notch instructor and every student is willing to stab one another to snag up one of his classes. 

The other instructors are great with plenty of accolades in various tournaments/competitions.

Current status is that I'm a white belt who goes to class once or twice a day, every weekday with a morning roll on Saturday. Muay Thai and "MMA" striking is offered by jump-in instructors but frankly, I'd rather just roll. I do Gi and No-Gi - my game has definitely taken off.

I'm not so interested in being so "street ready" as I am just genuinely enjoying the discipline and good people to hang with. I figure there were probably a lot of situations where I could have grabbed my girl and exited a bad scenario so that's on me. I could train for the 1 out of 10 likelihood of evil dooers in a Walmart parkinglot looking like an asshole at class... OR train to the 10 out of 10 likelihood of just enjoying myself alongside very talented people.

I really have found my outlet here and its so fortunate that socal is literally riddled with awesome gyms all over.


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## amlove21 (Nov 1, 2018)

The Hate Ape said:


> 100% agree.
> 
> ...snip...


Dude, that's awesome. Great to see the update. Keep with it, it's definitely worth it for a lot of different reasons.


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## Devildoc (Nov 1, 2018)

A guy I went to HS with a huge Gracie guy/instructor (https://www.graciemartialarts.com/about-us.html).  If I was close to him I would so do it: the dude talks about it like its a religion (and not in a bad or freaky way).  He was like padawan of Gracie for a good while.  @The Hate Ape , rock on.


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## Gunz (Nov 1, 2018)

The Hate Ape said:


> 100% agree.
> 
> Thread revival / update:



That's cool, man, it's all about what you get out of it. And I think the 1 out of 10 is more like 1 out of 500. The reason I say that is because I've rarely  found trouble unless I've actively looked for it...with a few notable exceptions.


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## Grunt (Nov 1, 2018)

I've been studying/teaching martial arts for 41 years now. If it wasn't for my job over the last 30 years that put me in *fighting* situations, I would say the 1 in 500 is fairly accurate.

I am glad to hear you are enjoying your training. I wish you the very best of success with it. It's always good to have a physical release that is as *fun* as it is healthy.


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## amlove21 (Nov 2, 2018)

Grunt said:


> I've been studying/teaching martial arts for 41 years now. If it wasn't for my job over the last 30 years that put me in *fighting* situations, I would say the 1 in 500 is fairly accurate.
> 
> I am glad to hear you are enjoying your training. I wish you the very best of success with it. It's always good to have a physical release that is as *fun* as it is healthy.


The more I train (mil SOCP/Krav Maga instructor/BJJ competitor), the more I am willing to de-escalate. 

Can't lose a fight/get hurt/killed if you talk softly and walk away.


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## Devildoc (Nov 2, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> The more I train (mil SOCP/Krav Maga instructor/BJJ competitor), the more I am willing to de-escalate.
> 
> Can't lose a fight/get hurt/killed if you talk softly and walk away.



I have had 'some' krav maga, some old MC LINE training, and of course Semper Fu; all of it, years ago.  I know enough to look funny when I do it.  That said, in my youth (I will be 50 next week) I had my fair share of fights, some I won, some I didn't.  I learned early on the best fight is the one not fought.  That is a sign of maturity that a man who can kick ass and kill you, won't.


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