# Favorite pistol caliber?



## 104TN (Mar 17, 2009)

The CZ I have is in .40 S&W and I'm pretty partial to the holes it leaves. In the past I've had a Glock 17 and Sig 226 in 9mm too. 

The CZ is a nice piece...actually it's a great piece, but it's definitely laid out for a rightly. I'm thinking about getting a new pistol and have been thinking of going either 10mm or .45. 

I know there are a lot of 1911 fan boys out there but I was hoping for some objective opinion about what caliber you're most into.

Thoughts?


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## HOLLiS (Mar 17, 2009)

rick said:


> The CZ I have is in .40 S&W and I'm pretty partial to the holes it leaves. In the past I've had a Glock 17 and Sig 226 in 9mm too.
> 
> The CZ is a nice piece...actually it's a great piece, but it's definitely laid out for a rightly. I'm thinking about getting a new pistol and have been thinking of going either 10mm or .45.
> 
> ...



Caliber is one thing,  Pistol design is another.   10mm and 45 are pretty comparable in power.  10mm would probably be more expensive to buy loaded ammo, because it is not as popular.


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## 104TN (Mar 17, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> Caliber is one thing,  Pistol design is another.   10mm and 45 are pretty comparable in power.  10mm would probably be more expensive to buy loaded ammo, because it is not as popular.



I get that. Whatever I buy will be more lefty friendly. 

I'm just curious about what people's thoughts on rounds are.


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## pardus (Mar 17, 2009)

What do you want it for Rick? 

Defense or target stuff?

I'm not much more than a novice with a pistol but I'm a fan of the .45, I just like a solid kick when I shoot, pistol or rifle (I love the 7.62 in rifle cal).

And ballisticly my understanding is the .45 is better than 9mm and .40.

I've used a Sig .40 and loved it but the ammo is more expensive and it doesn't give as good ballistic performance as .45 so why bother?
If I was just plinking i'd go 9mm, defense, .45.

:2c:


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 17, 2009)

45 ACP hands down...

I still carry a 9mm though ;)


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## arizonaguide (Mar 17, 2009)

The way ammo is getting, I'd seriously consider the future availability.
I think .45 will be a lot easier to come by than 10mm, and cheaper.
Ballistically, .45 is for sure in the top 3 or 4 semi-auto pistol rounds.
My feelings are .45, .40sw, .357sig would all be great choices ballistically...
now which one will be the easiest to GET!

9mm probably easiest/cheapest...but not in the same league ballistically.
I would stick with .40 or .45...and lean toward the .45 as well.
.357sig is awsome, but availability may be a hassle...(and spendy!)


(hell, I've been trying to decide between .40 and .45 for the last year!)


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## HOLLiS (Mar 17, 2009)

I am pretty indifference as to a favorite, it depends on what I am going to do.  

With pistol designs and what one can do with a pistol to lessen felt recoil,  caliber almost becomes mute.  

As Pardus mention, what is your intent for said pistol?

As power goes, I shoot 22LR to .30 Herret (.30 herret has more retained muzzle energy at 100 yards than a .44 Mag has at the snout.)  

I guess I like just about anything that goes bang, when I want it too.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Mar 17, 2009)

I like .40


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## dusty (Mar 17, 2009)

.45 ACP/.308 Win or .300 Win Mag

.38 Sp for a PT gun!:)


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## 104TN (Mar 17, 2009)

This'll be an Armageddon/self defense gun.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Mar 17, 2009)

rick said:


> This'll be an Armageddon/self defense gun.



Well in that case, conduct a survey of your community to see which cal is the most popular.  That way when you become the warlord or your community, you can seize their ammo and use it in your arsenal


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## HOLLiS (Mar 17, 2009)

rick said:


> This'll be an Armageddon/self defense gun.



This will help:  https://shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=7010&highlight=Zombie


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## 08steeda (Mar 17, 2009)

.45 ammo is way more prevalent and cheaper than 10mm ammo. But the 10 mm is superior in every way to the .45. Yes I know some people will argue this! But scientifically it is superior! Don't get me wrong the .45 is a very close second to the 10mm in my opinion. I love the .45 a lot! I just like the 10mm more! But again, this is my subjective opinion.

The 10mm is closer to the ballistics of the 357 Mag. But 10mm ammo is more expensive and I have a hard time finding it form time to time.

*The Maximum Average Pressure for the 10mm Auto is 37,500 P.S.I. 
The Maximum Average Pressure for the .40 S&W is 35,000 P.S.I. 
The Maximum Average Pressure for the .45 ACP +P is 23,000 P.S.I. 
The Maximum Average Pressure for the .45 ACP is 21,000 P.S.I.* 

*The 10mm Auto provides a hand gunner with the power of a .357 Magnum revolver with the increased magazine capacity and rapid reload capability of an automatic pistol. 
10mm AUTO.* 

Go fill 2 1 gallon jugs with water! Shoot one with the .45! Pretty cool explosion, right!

Now do it with a 10mm! Night and day difference. That is what I have done to show the difference. Very unscientific but very dramatic difference.


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## HOLLiS (Mar 17, 2009)

08steeda said:


> .45 ammo is way more prevalent and cheaper than 10mm ammo. But the 10 mm is superior in every way to the .45. Yes I know some people will argue this! But scientifically it is superior! Don't get me wrong the .45 is a very close second to the 10mm in my opinion. I love the .45 a lot! I just like the 10mm more! But again, this is my subjective opinion.
> 
> The 10mm is closer to the ballistics of the 357 Mag. But 10mm ammo is more expensive and I have a hard time finding it form time to time.
> 
> ...



might want to check your data,   10mm has two different loads, for auto loaders and then for single shot contenders.    On a Auto loader velocity for a 190 gr bullet is 1050, for the contender it is, 1350.

Max Velocity for a 45 ACP 185 gr bullet is 1000.   Plus a 45 can shoot up to a 240 grain (Sierra) compared to the 10 MM 190 grain (Sierra).


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## 08steeda (Mar 17, 2009)

Those are Pressures not FPS stats I posted.







http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Chart_C/AMMUNITION+BALLISTICS+FOR+10mm+Auto


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## dusty (Mar 17, 2009)

08steeda said:


> Those are Pressures not FPS stats I posted.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Looks good, bro-good enough to buy .40 autoloader and check it out thoroughly.

I'm gonna miss watching my lil' ol' 230 gr. .45  bullets go downrange, though!


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## HOLLiS (Mar 17, 2009)

08steeda said:


> Those are Pressures not FPS stats I posted.
> 
> http://www.gunsandammomag.com/cs/Satellite/IMO_GA/Chart_C/AMMUNITION+BALLISTICS+FOR+10mm+Auto



Looks like at the muzzle FPS are approximately the same (given same weight bullet).   What I went on was chamber pressures.   The greater chamber pressure the faster the bullet, general rule.  One of the reasons a Chrony is a important reloading tool, is because of the relationship between speed and chamber pressures.  Obviously there is a limit to chamber pressure.  The 14,000 PSI, difference seems off to me.  I have some reloading books with chamber pressures, I use when building a load.   One of the reasons a Chrony is a important reloaded tool, is because of the relationship between speed and chamber pressures.

I used Sierra book, they only show loads for their bullets.  Powder manufacture's books show loads for the range of bullets available for that caliber.


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## HOLLiS (Mar 17, 2009)

dusty said:


> Looks good, bro-good enough to buy .40 autoloader and check it out thoroughly.
> 
> I'm gonna miss watching my lil' ol' 230 gr. .45  bullets go downrange, though!



10 mm is kind of like a 40 S&W magnum.  

I had a sweet shooting 10mm, one of my regrets in trading off.


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## 104TN (Mar 17, 2009)

FWIW, I absolutely love the .40 I have. I just figured if I was buying a new gat I may as well see if there is a better (sic) caliber I should be checking out.


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## arizonaguide (Mar 17, 2009)

*.40 vs .45 still up in the air...*

Rick, check out the S&W M&P line for a good ambidexterous (lefty) pistol line. Glock, XDm also.
(recommend .40 or .45...especially if you have a lot of .40 ammo already from your CZ!)

08, How does the .357sig fit in to those pressure numbers?
Not that I'd recommend that with ammo scarcity becoming an issue.
It's a tough call for me as I don't reload anything but 12ga.

It's .40 or .45 for me...and the energy at 50yds numbers seem very similar between the .40 and the .45. And the availabilty could go either way between the two.
Cops shoot (and are proving) .40's (as a generalization).
Military may go back to the _proven_ .45 (but with Obama, that may not mean much, as he's already shredding surplus brass).

Folks (Hollis), if you had to pick...which would you choose (and why) between the .40 and the .45? I can't make up my mind, as a final recommendation to Rick (or for me!). 
For me, it will be the small KAHR platform, as it fits my hand..but also limits me to 7 round mags.
(PM me, if necessary.)


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## HOLLiS (Mar 17, 2009)

If you have a Glock in 40 Smith for about $100 - $130, you can buy a .357 Sig barrel.   It is not the cheapest to shoot and more than 40 Smith.  It uses the same mags too.  I had two glock 40's that I had .357 Sig barrels for.  


Rumor has it .357 is not easy to reload.  Basically a 40 Smith necked down to a .356


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## Chad (Mar 17, 2009)

rick said:


> I know there are a lot of 1911 fan boys out there but I was hoping for some objective opinion about what caliber you're most into.
> 
> Thoughts?



I like the .45 in a 1911 and carried it as the primary for ccw for years. 

Recently made the switch to the XD(M) in 9mm. Two main reasons being; I wanted more capacity and I wanted to shoot more(bunches more). So, the 9 made sense for me.

Chad


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## 104TN (Mar 17, 2009)

Just went to my favorite gun spot and handled the S&W M&P .40 and the Springfield XD. W/o shooting them thought I the ergonomics were there at least.

Then I saw a Kimber Grand Raptor (.45 and fell in love). The only thing that sucked about it was the mag release (which I could get fixed).

Of course it also costs as much as both of the pistols above put together. 

Talk about feeling conflicted. lol


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## arizonaguide (Mar 17, 2009)

Rick, did you put a mitt on the XD_m_ .40? It's even sweeter!!!
Can't go wrong with any of the above though!!!


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## 104TN (Mar 17, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Rick, did you put a mitt on the XD_m_ .40? It's even sweeter!!!
> Can't go wrong with any of the above though!!!



I did. The only real difference (besides price) seemed to be the match grade barrel. I miss something?


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## arizonaguide (Mar 17, 2009)

No, not really. Just the grip is a little more "ergonomic", with a smaller CZ-type of top dimension to it/agressive pattern. 
And I believe the round count is a couple better. And the match barrel that you mentioned. Slightly longer sight radius.
Can't go wrong with any you mentioned!


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## WillBrink (Mar 18, 2009)

rick said:


> The CZ I have is in .40 S&W and I'm pretty partial to the holes it leaves. In the past I've had a Glock 17 and Sig 226 in 9mm too.
> 
> The CZ is a nice piece...actually it's a great piece, but it's definitely laid out for a rightly. I'm thinking about getting a new pistol and have been thinking of going either 10mm or .45.
> 
> ...



45 ACP, is generally  my first choice due to terminal ballistics vs. recoil and size of gun. All those things must be balanced out or we would all carry 44mag and 454, etc. 10mm for me, tends to go outside those considerations as the recoil (unless the gun is big and heavy thus making ccw difficult) is high, so 10mm has not been a consideration for me personally. It's actually a good hunting rnd for medium sized game and I know people who hunt black bear, deer, and others with it.

I also don't choose caliber before gun and requirements: requirements (for me) will dictate caliber and gun. If my requirement for example was a sub compact gun needed for deep concealment and light weight, I may not choose a 45ACP due to the recoil, rnd count, etc of small polymer guns that fire 45ACP and so on.

If I have the choice, then it's 45 ACP using any of the brands that have tested well in terminal ballistics: Spear Gold Dot, Ranger SXT,  etc.

Just my :2c: People with "been there done that" experience will give you advice.


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## dusty (Mar 18, 2009)

I've made my mind up on a Smitty 327 in .357.  8 rounds.

I'll just put my 442 in another pocket.

(Hey, I don't go anywhere I need more than a snubby.)

http://www.ableammo.com/catalog/popup_image.php?pID=106933


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## snurp (Mar 18, 2009)

.45 ACP  for PD/CQ (of course)  
.223/.308 for UA/CQB rifle 
. 300 win mag for LR
50 BMG for FLR


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## 104TN (Mar 18, 2009)

I went with the Kimber. Having a mild heart attack now.

I'll post pics once I have it tricked...further.


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## pardus (Mar 18, 2009)

Sweet looking piece Rick!


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## HOLLiS (Mar 18, 2009)

pardus762 said:


> Sweet looking piece Rick!



No kidding, that is one very nicely set up 1911.


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## JBS (Mar 18, 2009)

The chamber pressure is higher when comparing the 10mm to the .45 because you have (roughly) the same grains in a smaller chamber- hence smaller surface area.

A very hot load on a .45 round with 200+gr can exceed 41,000 psi.




08steeda said:


> .45 ammo is way more prevalent and cheaper than 10mm ammo. But the 10 mm is superior in every way to the .45. Yes I know some people will argue this! But scientifically it is superior! Don't get me wrong the .45 is a very close second to the 10mm in my opinion. I love the .45 a lot! I just like the 10mm more! But again, this is my subjective opinion.
> 
> The 10mm is closer to the ballistics of the 357 Mag. But 10mm ammo is more expensive and I have a hard time finding it form time to time.
> 
> ...


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## JBS (Mar 19, 2009)

pardus762 said:


> Sweet looking piece Rick!



Is that a Matt Davis / Rich Heinie piece out of Illinois?

I know Matt Davis' father-in-law, and it looks like one of his masterpieces.


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## 104TN (Mar 19, 2009)

JBS said:


> Is that a Matt Davis / Rich Heinie piece out of Illinois?
> 
> I know Matt Davis' father-in-law, and it looks like one of his masterpieces.



Kimber Master Raptor II. I'll have to look those guys up though as it's definitely turned me on to 1911's. Hands down the tightest gun I've ever handled.


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## The91Bravo (Mar 19, 2009)

Rick,

Where did you pick it up??  Tn Gun Country?  If so Dave, he's good people.

I have to give you one suggestion with your Kimber.

I have the Pro Raptor II and I had only one problem with her.  I adjusted the trigger pull down some one day, while dry firing, to where it _felt just perfect_.  I had shot it the day before and it shot great... then I adjusted it.. then went out the next weekend to shoot it again.  It went like this.

Trigger pull... BANG
Trigger pull... BANG
Trigger pull... BANG BANG

WTF...

reload...

Trigger pull... BANG
Trigger pull... BANG
Trigger pull... BANG BANG

I had adjusted the trigger down too much.  I read some online and found similar situations/solutions and tightened the trigger up a little and no probs.

Also do not shoot JHPs that have a big mouth.. (you know what I mean? Large diameter hollow point part)  They do not feed very reliably.  I bought some (cannot remember brand) got them home.  Tried to feed them, and had about 5 failure to feeds.  This is where Dave took great care of me.  Not other gun shop I have ever been to allow anyone to return ammo.  I told dave the SITREP and he swapped them out with no problem.

Good luck, and good shooting


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## 104TN (Mar 19, 2009)

I actually picked it up at GrandPa's. 

If you have a go-to guy around here though hook me up. 

I was tight with the guys at Lightfighter back in the day (I worked there for a bit), but that place has TOTALLY changed since it became ATS.


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## The91Bravo (Mar 19, 2009)

rick said:


> I actually picked it up at GrandPa's.
> 
> If you have a go-to guy around here though hook me up.
> 
> I was tight with the guys at Lightfighter back in the day (I worked there for a bit), but that place has TOTALLY changed since it became ATS.



Jimmy at ATS is Good to Go.  I don't get guns there since they are across state lines, but Dave at TN Gun Country is an EXCELLENT guy to deal with.

I got a referral for smithing that I put up on your "I'm pissed" thread.  Haven't had him do any work for me but the two guys that recommend him are good enough for me.

We need to go out and do some shooting.... with that scratched up piece of shit you just bought   :doh: :cool:


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## 104TN (Mar 19, 2009)

The91Bravo said:


> Jimmy at ATS is Good to Go.  I don't get guns there since they are across state lines, but Dave at TN Gun Country is an EXCELLENT guy to deal with.
> 
> I got a referral for smithing that I put up on your "I'm pissed" thread.  Haven't had him do any work for me but the two guys that recommend him are good enough for me.
> 
> We need to go out and do some shooting.... with that scratched up piece of shit you just bought   :doh: :cool:



lol. Thanks fucker. Definitely. PM inbound.

I needed an excuse to buy more mags anyway. ;)


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## dusty (Mar 26, 2009)

Stickin' wit my thutty-eight, aight?

http://www.brassfetcher.com/Buffalo Bore 158gr (non +P) SWC-HC.html


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## arizonaguide (Mar 31, 2009)

dusty said:


> Stickin' wit my thutty-eight, aight?
> 
> http://www.brassfetcher.com/Buffalo Bore 158gr (non +P) SWC-HC.html


 
Me too. That will be the daily carry with the Buffalo 158's.


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## WillBrink (Mar 31, 2009)

rick said:


> The CZ I have is in .40 S&W and I'm pretty partial to the holes it leaves. In the past I've had a Glock 17 and Sig 226 in 9mm too.
> 
> The CZ is a nice piece...actually it's a great piece, but it's definitely laid out for a rightly. I'm thinking about getting a new pistol and have been thinking of going either 10mm or .45.
> *
> ...



Starts with a 4 and ends with a 5. The 1911 platform  shoots all the calibers you list above, so what caliber people prefer is another issue from what platform they prefer. :)


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## HOLLiS (Mar 31, 2009)

A friend who has reasonable creds like these guys.  I am thinking of a few boxes for my HD stuff.   

http://www.rbcd.net/Personal Defense- Ammo.htm


Especially after reading a FBI report on how INeffective the 40S&W with speer gold dots are. 

"The results of this FBI analysis really reinforces the importance of shot
placement if you are ever forced to use your gun against an attacker. Police
fired a total of 107 rounds at the single suspect and it took an M4 rifle to
finally incapacitate him. The suspect was able to fire 26 rounds from his
.45 caliber handgun and even reloaded from a box of loose rounds. 

3  officers were involved in a shooting this week. An ambush was set up for
the officers prior to their arrival, they took fire while still in their
cruisers. One officer was hit in the forearm, another received wounds to his
forehead from a ricochet, another was injured (NFI). The suspect was armed
with a .45 handgun. The officers were armed with Glock 22's (.40S&W) and
SPEER 180 gr. Gold Dot Hollow Points. 

Officers fired on the subject and hit him in the left arm, completely
shattering the bone. He was also hit five times in the chest and abdomen.
All rounds penetrated less than 1 (one inch) (B. All of the rounds expanded
fully but did not cause incapacitation due to the lack of penetration.
According to the Medical Examiner, none of the rounds caused any life
threatening injuries. The subject also received one round into the front of
his throat, it penetrated less than 1in (B as well. The Medical Examiner
stated that the recovered rounds were in pristine condition (still had
rifling marks on them). 

The subject was wearing a down jacket at the time of the incident. He was
finally taken down after receiving rounds from an M-4 .223, with Hornady Tap
55 gr ballistic tip rounds and Hornady Tap 72 gr. Hollow Points. 

The officer with the M-4 was able to shoot underneath a vehicle and hit the
suspect in the ankle. The officer then flanked the subject, who continued to
engage officers, and was eventually killed by the officer with the M-4. 

The subject had a trace amount of marijuana in his system. 

Range between subject and officers: 20 feet. 
Subject had a t-shirt on under his jacket. 

Subject received approximately sixteen .223 rounds, thirteen of these rounds
went completely through. One round struck his hip and completely shattered
it. Another .223 round struck his aorta and another pierced and collapsed
his lung. Both of these rounds lodged themselves inside the subject. 

The Medical Examiner stated that the .223 rounds caused massive internal
damage. 

This is the second shooting that the PD has experienced where they had to
shoot a subject in excess of ten times with .40 S&W ammo to incapacitate or
kill. There was another incident where a subject was shot inside of his
vehicle. He was struck approximately ten times, all the while continuing to
fire at officers. He was eventually killed after suffering a shot to the
back of his head. 

In this same incident, the back of the subject's seat was struck multiple
times, the .40 S&W rounds never penetrated through the seat. In this
incident, all shots had passed through either the windshield or rear window.
Investigators assume that this was the reason for the poor ballistic
performance. 

(The) PD is now considering replacing their Glock 22's (.40S&W) with Glock
21's (.45ACP). "

There is more NSFW or public.


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## koz (Mar 31, 2009)

Hollis - I know the guys at RBCD and I've seen some presentations they've done on the ammo.  It does some amazing damage to flesh and tissue.  It doesn't perform well in ballistic gel according to Gary Roberts but then I've never tried to kill a block gelatin.  

There's a there a thread with some autopsy photos (of hogs) on PS.com. 

Plus I think you'll appreciate the fact they're Marines. :)


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## HOLLiS (Mar 31, 2009)

koz said:


> Hollis - I know the guys at RBCD and I've seen some presentations they've done on the ammo.  It does some amazing damage to flesh and tissue.  It doesn't perform well in ballistic gel according to Gary Roberts but then I've never tried to kill a block gelatin.
> 
> There's a there a thread with some autopsy photos (of hogs) on PS.com.
> 
> Plus I think you'll appreciate the fact they're Marines. :)



Thanks and thanks for the Heads up.   Same here,  rouge ballistic gel has been extinct in this part of the country for a long time.  They are not even hunted anymore.


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## koz (Mar 31, 2009)

Look at 1:08 - we've got ground beef

[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=poV4xM9Nxps&feature=related"]YouTube - RBCD Smart ammo[/ame]


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## 8'Duece (Mar 31, 2009)

Personally I don't feel undergunned with a 9mm Luger, assuming your are using a higher pressured load such as the Corbon 115 +P (Barnes DPX bullet)  It will make a hell of mess of your attacker if shot placement is to the central nervous system or vital organs. Shot placement, shot placement.  

But, I prefer .45 ACP any day of the week. 

I'm not keen on the .40 Smith, especially when most departments are carrying the 180 grain.  To me the .40 has alway's been a bastardization of the 10mm with little in the way of actually outperforming a decent load of 9mm Luger or a .45 ACP. 

:2c:


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## Frank S. (Mar 31, 2009)

Well, I think everything's a compromise on some level. My personal choice, what I feel confident and competent with is .40 in semi-auto, but I really trust my .357 revolver (3.1 inch barrel).


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## pardus (Mar 31, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> Especially after reading a FBI report on how INeffective the 40S&W with speer gold dots are.



Wow, I didn't know that about the .40S&W!

Good to know!


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## Boondocksaint375 (Mar 31, 2009)

pardus said:


> Wow, I didn't know that about the .40S&W!
> 
> Good to know!



Well, that's with the Speer Gold Dots.....


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## HOLLiS (Mar 31, 2009)

pardus said:


> Wow, I didn't know that about the .40S&W!
> 
> Good to know!



No kidding,   I woke up yesterday too.   I am planning or ordering some RBCD products for personal safety.  

I knew 40 was better than 9, but I thought it was much better.  I should have kept my 10mm.  Oh well, I am picking up another 45 soon.


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## Centermass (Mar 31, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> Especially after reading a FBI report on how INeffective the 40S&W with speer gold dots are.
> 
> "The results of this FBI analysis really reinforces the importance of shot
> placement if you are ever forced to use your gun against an attacker. Police
> ...



Before everyone goes knocking off the .40.............

They didn't need a knee jerk reaction and go replace all their weapons, but unfortunately, it's probably already a done deal. 

For me? .40 S&W. Wouldn't trade my 22C for anything else.  

This department (Above) used a heavier round which instead of increasing stopping power with a .40 round, actually reduced it. The above review just re-confirms it. Problem was not with the .40, nor was it the SPEER ammunition itself, it was the type of round (180 gr) selected for departmental use, probably selected by someone on the city council. . 

I use a 135 gr JHP in Winchester or Corbon. Federal in a pinch. I wouldn't go any higher than a 155 JHP. Couple it with a double stack and no one will ever have to say on my behalf "If only he had more"

In .32 for my NAA b/u, Hornaday Proprietary .32 NAA60 gr. 199 ft lbs @1222 fps. Sanow also gave it a thumbs up. Not bad for a small intimidater. 

One other knock down plus factor is SHOT PLACEMENT as mentioned above. :2c:


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## Centermass (Mar 31, 2009)

rick said:


> Kimber Master Raptor II. I'll have to look those guys up though as it's definitely turned me on to 1911's. Hands down the tightest gun I've ever handled.



CM wipes chin. 

Very, very nice.


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## HOLLiS (Mar 31, 2009)

Centermass said:


> Before everyone goes knocking off the .40.............
> 
> They didn't need a knee jerk reaction and go replace all their weapons, but unfortunately, it's probably already a done deal.
> 
> ...



That could be.  The funny part for me, is that in a way this was all discussed in the 70's.   A lot of departments used .38 Specials.   There was a reluctance to move to .357 Mag.   At that time there was also talk of going to the .41 Mag.   Stoned perps on PCP, where almost impossible to bring down with a .38 special and then we had the FBI shoot out, they had 9mm and the perp had a SKS.   FBIs lost several agents.


There was also not a very decent selection of auto loaders then.   9mm for all practical purpose is a .38 special.  .40 Smith, IMHO, a better choice than a 9mm, not the best choice compared to 10mm, or .45 acp.  (there are other calibers in that range too).

I also feel situation for all us can be very different.  So generally the needs for a LEO would not be the same as for me as a CCW holder.  


To throw a monkey wrench into what I just post and also what you mentioned,  Bullet choice has a lot to do with this too.


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## AssadUSMC (Mar 31, 2009)

.45 here too.  I'm picking up a Kimber soon to go with my custom Colt Ltwt Cmdr.  Selling my P228 and Glock 21 to make room.  I will pick up a Glock 19 for a CCW gun and since that's what we're issued.


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## 8'Duece (Mar 31, 2009)

Centermass said:


> Before everyone goes knocking off the .40.............
> 
> They didn't need a knee jerk reaction and go replace all their weapons, but unfortunately, it's probably already a done deal.
> 
> ...



Well spoken !!!

What .40 Smiths I do own are stuffed with 135 grain Corbon DPX at the moment.


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## arizonaguide (Mar 31, 2009)

Today's SitRep Phoenix AZ:
.45 ammo almost gone from the shelves at the shop, and getting hard to get.
Not surprising.
But, lots of .40sw still available, and fairly easy to get.
That surprised me...I thought the .40 was becoming very popular. 
9mm getting harder to get also.
:2c:


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## Centermass (Mar 31, 2009)

Going a bit further now that this topic has me intrigued, I did a little digging and fished out tables for both .40 and .45. 












The muzzle velocity and energy columns within the tables speak for themselves. The closest .45 was the 145 Corbon. I had to do a double take looking at the .40 115 gr Corbon. I put a box on my shopping list for tomorrow. Nothing wrong with the .45, but for me, I'll stick with my .40


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## dusty (Mar 31, 2009)

I went down and got a .40 Smitty M&P compact...today. 

Sweet! Dead on @ 7 yards.

Thanks for convincing me.  You too, 82nd.

All I could get in JHP were 155 gr. Federals, but it beats roundnose.

I like it so much, I made it my profile picture.

Now my snub goes in my left pocket.:cool:


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## Centermass (Mar 31, 2009)

dusty said:


> I went down and got a .40 Smitty M&P compact...today.
> 
> Sweet! Dead on @ 7 yards.
> 
> ...



I've heard nothing but good feedback on the SW M&P compact line. I had a looksy at yours. Nice shooter Dusty.


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## lockNload (Mar 31, 2009)

Hollis, do you have a link to the rest of the article? Those results were very staggering and puzzling. I've always heard good things about Gold Dots in ballistic tests and actual shootings. I carry 147 gr Gold Dots in my Glock 19. 

I'm always surprised with the amount of rounds fired in LE shootings. Seems there are a lot where there were 4 officers who each shoot 10 rounds at one person. I'm not placing blame on LE for excessive shooting, just exclaiming surprise at the amount of rounds required to stop the threat. I know shot placement is key, and there are other stories of people stopping after getting shot a couple of times. In this story the officer with the M4 still had to fire 13 rds into the subject :eek:  Comments or observations on this?


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## HOLLiS (Apr 1, 2009)

lockNload said:


> Hollis, do you have a link to the rest of the article? Those results were very staggering and puzzling. I've always heard good things about Gold Dots in ballistic tests and actual shootings. I carry 147 gr Gold Dots in my Glock 19.
> 
> I'm always surprised with the amount of rounds fired in LE shootings. Seems there are a lot where there were 4 officers who each shoot 10 rounds at one person. I'm not placing blame on LE for excessive shooting, just exclaiming surprise at the amount of rounds required to stop the threat. I know shot placement is key, and there are other stories of people stopping after getting shot a couple of times. In this story the officer with the M4 still had to fire 13 rds into the subject :eek:  Comments or observations on this?



Sorry, no I don't.   

The officer fired his M4 first under the car at the perps feet.   I also tend to think the officers did not spend much time at the range.  A lot of rounds was where expended.


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## arizonaguide (Apr 1, 2009)

Here's a link to the FBI .pdf file...warning Graphic! [NSFW]
http://concealedcarryholsters.org/wp-content/files/FBI-Analysis-on-PA-Police-Shootout.pdf


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## 08steeda (Apr 1, 2009)

I wish the 10MM was adopted more! I love the round and the wow factor was pretty impressive too! All my buddies are .45 guys and my 10MM's made then green with envy. Colt Delta Elite 10mm and a Gold cup in 10mm.

I am telling you shooting 1 gallon milk jugs full of water, bowling pins and cinder blocks the 10MM was far more impressive than the .45's.

Don't get me wrong I love .45's too! Just love the 10's a lot more!


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## lockNload (Apr 1, 2009)

Thanks arizonaguide. The perp had a tattoo that said live by the gun, die by the gun and a couple of crossed revolvers. I know there are "fluke" incidents with guys still fighting after taking a lot of hits but the alleged performance results are what's really surprising. The link says they had to "fight" assailant in order to be cuffed?!? The guy took 17 rds and is still fighting? They actually cuff him at all? Sorry I'm just confused by a lot of this :uhh:


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## pardus (Apr 1, 2009)

lockNload said:


> I'm always surprised with the amount of rounds fired in LE shootings. Seems there are a lot where there were 4 officers who each shoot 10 rounds at one person. I'm not placing blame on LE for excessive shooting, just exclaiming surprise at the amount of rounds required to stop the threat. I know shot placement is key, and there are other stories of people stopping after getting shot a couple of times. In this story the officer with the M4 still had to fire 13 rds into the subject :eek:  Comments or observations on this?



Lack of training, plain and simple.


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## Centermass (Apr 1, 2009)

lockNload said:


> Hollis, do you have a link to the rest of the article? Those results were very staggering and puzzling. *I've always heard good things about Gold Dots in ballistic tests and actual shootings. I carry 147 gr Gold Dots in my Glock 19. *
> 
> I'm always surprised with the amount of rounds fired in LE shootings. Seems there are a lot where there were 4 officers who each shoot 10 rounds at one person. I'm not placing blame on LE for excessive shooting, just exclaiming surprise at the amount of rounds required to stop the threat. I know shot placement is key, and there are other stories of people stopping after getting shot a couple of times. In this story the officer with the M4 still had to fire 13 rds into the subject :eek:  Comments or observations on this?



Did you read not only the entire FBI PP presentation at the link posted, but all of the posts made here? 

If you did, you would already know the findings about the ammunition and some of the conclusions jumped to.  

Real life ain't like the movies where the car blows up on impact or one shot takes out the bad guy.


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## arizonaguide (Apr 1, 2009)

lockNload said:


> The guy took 17 rds and is still fighting? They actually cuff him at all? Sorry I'm just confused by a lot of this :uhh:


 
It _is_ confusing LNL. We are so televisionized that we assume that someone gets shot, they die before they hit the ground. 

In real life(death) to my understanding this _is_ possible with a destructive shot to the hypothalamus/lower brain/stem area, and that is the typical target in a hostage rescue/swat long range type shot. It's also what professional killers aim for with silenced .22's, and as history shows in the old days "ice picks". It is what may be damaged in UFC/boxing's illegal "rabbit" punches to the back of the head. Here are some related medical links:
http://health.howstuffworks.com/brain5.htm
http://videos.howstuffworks.com/hsw/6083-our-brain-the-brain-stem-video.htm

Other than that, a bad guy can squeeze off many shots/fight before ever going down dead, even after shots to vital organs/other brain areas. Much of this is directly linked to his "will to live/fight", his resistance to "shock", and/or certain types of drugs such as PCP...which is famous for providing "super human" strength/resistance.

To protect yourself (and your family) from such serious (and often drug crazed) threats, it's important to have all the facts and plan/train accordingly.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 1, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> It _is_ confusing LNL. We are so televisionized that we assume that someone gets shot, they die before they hit the ground.
> 
> In real life(death) to my understanding this _is_ possible with a destructive shot to the hypothalamus/lower brain/stem area, and that is the typical target in a hostage rescue/swat long range type shot. It's also what professional killers aim for with silenced .22's, and as history shows in the old days "ice picks". It is what may be damaged in UFC/boxing's illegal "rabbit" punches to the back of the head. Here are some related medical links:
> http://health.howstuffworks.com/brain5.htm
> ...



Damn good post! ;)



Centermass said:


> Real life ain't like the movies where the car blows up on impact or one shot takes out the bad guy.


Unless you have the intergalactic death ray, then it’s all one hitter quitter…


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## AssadUSMC (Apr 1, 2009)

People have died from a .25 ACP round to the ankle, but then others haven't died from headshots, multiple torso hits, etc.  Just keep shooting until the threat is gone.  My favorite places?  Upper chest/neck and pelvic girdle - lots of big blood vessels and it's real hard to stand and fight when you can't stand.

As far as .40 goes, ballistically it's a great round.  Unfortunately, packing all that punch into a small round means it's hot as hell.  The byproduct of that heat?  LOTS of muzzle flip (not recoil) and muzzle blast.  I think it's a big misconception that recoil affects follow-up shots, when really it's muzzle flip.  Another reason I like .45 - a nice, slow push back, but not much flip.  Stats on paper are one thing, having to use it in the real world is another... 

Just my :2c:


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## dusty (Apr 1, 2009)

Shoot face.:)


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## WillBrink (Apr 1, 2009)

pardus said:


> Lack of training, plain and simple.



People think LEOs are far better trained then they are. The major metro PD here (which from my location should not be hard to figure out), officers have to qualify 2x per year, at 100nd per session. That's a grand total of 200rnd *per year fired* by most of their officers, unless they take it on themselves (and most don't, believe me) to work on their skills. This major PD, has no indoor range BTW. I don't know the quals for every PD, and clearly some take their firearms training more serious then others, but for many, it's very low on the priority list. The guys on the RRT/SWAT team are much better trained as you would expect, but they are also very busy working as full time LEO, as well as doing the RRT stuff, etc, so their ability to actually train is  limited by that.


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## Ranger Psych (Apr 1, 2009)

maybe it's weapon size/weight but my USP .40 fullsize had jack for flip... really controllable...


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## WillBrink (Apr 1, 2009)

Ranger Psych said:


> maybe it's weapon size/weight but my USP .40 fullsize had jack for flip... really controllable...



The MnP compact .40 the GF just got has pronounced recoil, but it's manageable . I can shoot with it fine in terms of SD accuracy at SD distances, and she's getting used to it.


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## 08steeda (Apr 1, 2009)

Yeah, when I was doing IPSC and we did some training on base for the local LEO's, most of them were pretty lousy marksman. It is a matter of doing more than is required to meet qualifications. They should be shooting EVERY week and have access to competent instructors.

The AF - Combat Arms folks tried to pass along that mind set and the idea to get them to adopt an on-going training regiment but they blew it off!

It does not surprise me in the least that many LEO's have to throw a lot of lead to get the job done. Although all the tactical teams had real shooters. Tactical Folks who could hit the target with an economy of effort and efficiency. 

I shot anchor for a local alphabet agency against other departments and agencies for several years. It was scary how bad some of the folks were with their primary weapons. My advice was, get a scabbard for a shotgun and strap it on! 

Almost every shooter that was good was Prior-Service. 

It is simple: You have to hit what you are aiming at!!!! 

2 in the chest and 1 in the head and the threat is down!!! No matter how drugged up they are!


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## HOLLiS (Apr 1, 2009)

With departments (LEO)  budget is a big part of the problem.   Also being understaffed does not help.  This is more with smaller departments.   Also people are people, there are some people who will not do anything related to their job unless they where paid to do it.   When I worked for a agency, I would fire 500 rds/month at my own expense and time.  There are also, at that time, some officers considered it a badge of honor for their ammo turning green in their leathers/web gear.  

Departments often don't want aggressive officers because of the PR, until that rare event that something actually goes really bad.


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## pardus (Apr 1, 2009)

dusty said:


> Shoot face.:)



Yep, do that even with a .22 and you'll see decent results, make him think twice anyway lol



WillBrink said:


> People think LEOs are far better trained then they are. The major metro PD here (which from my location should not be hard to figure out), officers have to qualify 2x per year, at 100nd per session. That's a grand total of 200rnd *per year fired* by most of their officers, unless they take it on themselves (and most don't, believe me) to work on their skills. This major PD, has no indoor range BTW. I don't know the quals for every PD, and clearly some take their firearms training more serious then others, but for many, it's very low on the priority list. The guys on the RRT/SWAT team are much better trained as you would expect, but they are also very busy working as full time LEO, as well as doing the RRT stuff, etc, so their ability to actually train is  limited by that.





HOLLiS said:


> With departments (LEO)  budget is a big part of the problem.   Also being understaffed does not help.  This is more with smaller departments.   Also people are people, there are some people who will not do anything related to their job unless they where paid to do it.   When I worked for a agency, I would fire 500 rds/month at my own expense and time.  There are also, at that time, some officers considered it a badge of honor for their ammo turning green in their leathers/web gear.
> 
> Departments often don't want aggressive officers because of the PR, until that rare event that something actually goes really bad.



I heard nightmare stories about the NYPD from a head NYPD firearms instructor.
Officers turning up with weapons unloaded from when they were last at the range for their firearms qualifications!
That means they patrolled for at least 6 mths with no ammo in their weapon! :eek:
Others that had non functioning weapons, on inspection, it was found the weapons were rusted to the point they were inoperable. 

That said I know Officers that are superb marksmen and extremely competent with their weapons.
But as a general rule I don't trust Police with firearms... just my :2c:


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## lockNload (Apr 1, 2009)

Centermass said:


> Did you read not only the entire FBI PP presentation at the link posted, but all of the posts made here?
> 
> If you did, you would already know the findings about the ammunition and some of the conclusions jumped to.
> 
> Real life ain't like the movies where the car blows up on impact or one shot takes out the bad guy.



I read the whole FBI PP but no didn't read all 7 pages posted here. Before choosing a SD round to carry I did research over on ar15.com on their ammo forum. There's a guy that's an ammo expert and posted a bunch of ballistic data and listed effective rounds in various calibers and the 3 brands were Gold Dots, Federal HST, and Winchester Ranger T. The lack of performance in this case is very odd. While real world is different, those ballisitic tests are done to show as realistically as possible how that round will react on human tissue, even after passing through heavy denim or windshields. The Gold Dots exceed the FBI standard of 12 inches of penetration and intially in the PP the conclusion was an inch of penetration. Then later they were saying it's impossible for it to fully expand like they did with only penetrating one inch.

I learned about the misconceptions with shooting someone in my CCW class so by no means expect someone to go down with one shot. My point was that when someone takes over 5 rounds center mass and is still going strong that's what surprises me. I guess vitals weren't being hit and this guy was a tough mofo. In this case the guy wasn't hopped up on meth or pcp but just had a little weed in his system.

For those of you that have shot people down range, is there an average number of rounds it takes to eliminate the threat, 2 or 3? I realize using Hornady TAP 75 grain here in LE or for SD is a more superior round than the 55 gr or 62 gr ball ammo used by the military and that shot placement is paramount. Just curious if we can draw a conclusion as for generally how many rounds, accepting the fact that certain incidents will be more or less.


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## pardus (Apr 1, 2009)

I recall reading exerts from the Falklands war, where people were being hit with the 7.62mm and not going down to the surprise of the Soldiers.
One article I read said the 7.62mm didn't perform as well as expected, inferior to the .303 previously fielded.

Unfortunately I don't have that info anymore.


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## WillBrink (Apr 1, 2009)

lockNload said:


> I read the whole FBI PP but no didn't read all 7 pages posted here. Before choosing a SD round to carry I did research over on ar15.com on their ammo forum. There's a guy that's an ammo expert and posted a bunch of ballistic data and listed effective rounds in various calibers



I assume Dr Roberts? If interested, I started a thread a while back on the issue of Terminal Ballistics with additional info:

http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=9192&page=8&highlight=terminal+ballistics

Another thread to read is "man stopper myths"

http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/showthread.php?t=16729&highlight=terminal+ballistics


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## JBS (Apr 1, 2009)

pardus said:


> I recall reading exerts from the Falklands war, where people were being hit with the 7.62mm and not going down to the surprise of the Soldiers.
> One article I read said the 7.62mm didn't perform as well as expected, inferior to the .303 previously fielded.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't have that info anymore.



The .303 would knock a donkey down!

I'm still cleaning mine up, but I can't wait to take it to the range.


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## HOLLiS (Apr 1, 2009)

pardus said:


> I recall reading exerts from the Falklands war, where people were being hit with the 7.62mm and not going down to the surprise of the Soldiers.
> One article I read said the 7.62mm didn't perform as well as expected, inferior to the .303 previously fielded.
> 
> Unfortunately I don't have that info anymore.



Is that the 7.62 NATO?   The 7.62 NATO is has basically they same ballistic as the 06.   .303 and 8mm Mauser all fall into that same group.  Obviously not the tech weenie approach to ballistic data.   

I'll ask a Falklands war affectionatto on this.  See what I can dig up.  I would like to know more.


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## pardus (Apr 1, 2009)

JBS said:


> The .303 would knock a donkey down!
> 
> I'm still cleaning mine up, but I can't wait to take it to the range.



Yep, the .303 has been used on every type of game on the planet I'd wager.

I own several, the MKIII SMLE is my favourite rifle of all time.




HOLLiS said:


> Is that the 7.62 NATO?   The 7.62 NATO is has basically they same ballistic as the 06.   .303 and 8mm Mauser all fall into that same group.  Obviously not the tech weenie approach to ballistic data.
> 
> I'll ask a Falklands war affectionatto on this.  See what I can dig up.  I would like to know more.




Yes 7.62x51mm used in the British SLR (FN FAL).

I hate to admit it as I love the round but all the data Ive seen says the .303 is inferior to both the 8mm and the 30.06.

There are two pieces of info I recall that I would love to find the source of, this and something on the reliability of the Vickers gun, I will find them one day...


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## HOLLiS (Apr 1, 2009)

If memory is right (need to check data)  the .303 has less horse power than the other two (8mm and 06).


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## pardus (Apr 1, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> If memory is right (need to check data)  the .303 has less horse power than the other two (8mm and 06).



Yes, I believe that's true, but at the end of the day it's meaningless really, the .303 is a superb round that performed very well for about 80 years or so in Military use.


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## HOLLiS (Apr 1, 2009)

pardus said:


> Yes, I believe that's true, but at the end of the day it's meaningless really, the .303 is a superb round that performed very well for about 80 years or so in Military use.



Most exactly.  It is the tech weenies that get all excited about a 0.00001 of inch difference.  It works and IMHO, that is what is important.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 1, 2009)

lockNload said:


> For those of you that have shot people down range, is there an average number of rounds it takes to eliminate the threat, 2 or 3? I realize using Hornady TAP 75 grain here in LE or for SD is a more superior round than the 55 gr or 62 gr ball ammo used by the military and that shot placement is paramount. Just curious if we can draw a conclusion as for generally how many rounds, accepting the fact that certain incidents will be more or less.



Nope there is no magic number and no magic bullet size. All this posting about what this bullet does and what this other bullet does, don’t mean shit… Recoil and “muzzle flip” is gun design and shooter dependent. Bad guy being killed is bad guy and shooter dependent.

I have seen hadji take rounds to the nugget and not die and then I have seen hadji take 2 to 3 burst from a 240B and get back up. Your chances of stopping the bad guy are always better if you hit brain, spine, vital organ, vascular system or pelvic bone. But there is never any guarantee on anything.

I carry a 9mm b/c I realized along time ago that those big calibers don’t make a lick of difference when it come to killing. It is all about shot placement! You can have a .50 cal and 500 rounds, unless you can hit me with it, it won’t mean shit…

These so called bullet experts need to spend some time on the two-way shooting range and then tell me what really matters…:2c:


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## pardus (Apr 1, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> Most exactly.  It is the tech weenies that get all excited about a 0.00001 of inch difference.  It works and IMHO, that is what is important.



Indeed, it's effectively saying the .303 only has 3.7 times more power than it needs to kill a human whereas the 30.06 has 4 times the power needed to kill. :uhh:  lol


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## Centermass (Apr 1, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> It is all about *shot placement*! You can have a .50 cal and 500 rounds, unless you can hit me with it, it won’t mean shit…



Like I said.  
	

	
	
		
		

		
			







J.A.B. said:


> These so called bullet experts need to spend some time on the two-way shooting range and then tell me what really matters…:2c:



Couldn't agree more. 

Also, to add, Will is right that in most cases (Unless you're on a SWAT, SRT, HRT etc) that the general qualification requirement for most departments is 2 twice a year. With that said, most officers (Good ones anyway) know this and spend a lot of their own time and dime either at a range of their choosing or larger departments also make range time and it's use available for their officers and officers from smaller departments as well, for this very reason. 

And in the event you wind up laying down your own clnk for ammo, lots of suppliers offer LE discounts which lessens the sting. With all that, there's no excuse for any officer I know of to not set the example with a B27 and his shooter.

But again, only in a perfect world.......(still waiting on my electronic pulse rail gun  
	

	
	
		
		

		
		
	


	




 )


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## dusty (Apr 1, 2009)

pardus said:


> Indeed, it's effectively saying the .303 only has 3.7 times more power than it needs to kill a human whereas the 30.06 has 4 times the power needed to kill. :uhh:  lol




The .303 is the shit from 800 to 1200 yards.


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## arizonaguide (Apr 1, 2009)

I still like that old M1 Garand in 30-06...stripper clip and all.:cool:


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## AssadUSMC (Apr 1, 2009)

Shooting face is great, but it's real tough when they....      just....     won't...     hold.... still.  >:{


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## AWP (Apr 1, 2009)

My favorite? The one I have in hand at the time.


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## 08steeda (Apr 1, 2009)

"My favorite? The one I have in hand at the time.My favorite? The one I have in hand at the time."

Okay now zip up and put that thing away, your gonna scare someone or poke an eye out!!! :eek:


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## pardus (Apr 1, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> Shooting face is great, but it's real tough when they....      just....     won't...     hold.... still.  >:{



Sometimes you just gotta shoot'm in the body to slow them down a bit first.


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