# Some say the problem isn’t the rifle, it’s the snipers....



## TheWookie (Oct 26, 2009)

I found this article very interesting, especially the comments made about the current marksmanship abilities of today's Marine sniper.  I respect the Gunner's opinion, and I'm sure he's got a bag full of stats to back up his criticism, but if wonder if it's the Marine sniper's problem -- or a larger problem within the Marine Corps of not having enough trained snipers that are getting the right kind of training?  And, the time to do it?










> Marine combat developers are eyeing a new sniper rifle that would almost double the range of the Corps’ existing model, but the service’s weapons experts don’t want it and believe fielding something more powerful could exacerbate existing problems with marksmanship.
> 
> The SR21 should not be adopted unless existing problems with sniper training are addressed, said Chief Warrant Officer 5 Jeffrey Eby, the Corps’ senior gunner. The new rifle would offer a “significant capability,” but the gunner community is concerned that adopting it would put even more pressure on snipers already struggling to satisfactorily use existing 7.62mm M40 rifles, he said in an e-mail to Marine Corps Times.
> 
> ...


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## KBar666 (Oct 26, 2009)

This to me contradicts other general knowledge.
It was always my understanding that the Corp had a rep for having some of the best shooters around.

I know Sniping is really much the individual. I'm just saying every source I've ever heard said the Marines have great snipers.

Plus hell didn't they just win the comp.  That skill didn't come from sitting around with a barrell up your ass.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Oct 26, 2009)

KBar666 said:


> This to me contradicts other general knowledge.
> It was always my understanding that the Corp had a rep for having some of the best shooters around.
> 
> I know Sniping is really much the individual. I'm just saying every source I've ever heard said the Marines have great snipers.
> ...



The GWOT has exposesed some serious weakness in the US Army & USMC marksmanship programs. As for BRM and basic sniper training, hands down the USMC has the better programs. However, the programs are training Soldiers & Marines to shoot at targets that don’t move. They are teaching Soldiers & Marines to fire from standard position, instead of training to shoot from any position. The USMC combat lessons learned did an outstanding report on this back in 2005-2006,explaining how Marines had the right rifles and equipment but were not trained to use it at its full potential.

I may be mistaken but I thought that is what this CPT was trying to convey in this article. I strongly agree with it and hope that before they start rolling out any new toys for the US Army or USMC they change the training doctrine and spend the money where its most needed. :2c:


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## 7point62 (Oct 26, 2009)

The Marines produce the best riflemen in the world. Our snipers are among the best of the best. But it might be time to consider training them on a rifle that can meet current needs.


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## Teufel (Oct 26, 2009)

I don't know.  I know my guys would have loved to have a rifle that could range 1500 other than the SASR.  My guys were humping that rifle everywhere and getting kills from 850 to 1400 on multiple static and moving targets.  PS a team from SOI just won the international sniper competition so we must be doing something right.


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## KBar666 (Oct 27, 2009)

Edit:  nevermind google knows all.

Also I said the same thing about the competition.


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## SoloKing (Oct 27, 2009)

Free floating .338, intergrated rail system, fully adjustable telescoping rear end, 2.5lbs pull on the trigger, internal 5 round top loading mag, Schmit and Bender 5X25 Horus vision retical on the first focal plane, harris bi pods and last but not least suppressed..................Anything and I mean ANYTHING less and the Marine Corp is fucking up.

The good Gunner is correct about training improvements, but not needing a bigger bolt gun................I would do Thunder Dome with the Gunner or any other Marine of any rank over this issue. It breaks my fucking heart that the Corps leadership can't or wont listen to the guys who are daily behind the scope risking their lives.  No disrepect to the Gunner, he is a great Marine and spent a life time doing this job, but I sill disagree and passionatly so on this point.


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## JBS (Oct 27, 2009)

> First, the Corps lacks enough training facilities with “realistic targets,” which hinders efforts to adequately replicate combat scenarios, he said. Moreover, many snipers don’t get enough time to fully develop their skills on the M40, and the Corps is struggling to retain them long enough to perfect the craft, he said.


Can I mention the elephant in the room?

Like it or not the Corps doctrine of circulating and rotating highly specialized Marines into the FMF has everything to do with this situation, as well as many others, including retention.

I think the solution to this- as well as other related issues (SOF) is going to involve rethinking how Marines are shuffled throughout the Corps after spending time at XYZ unit.

Snipers -like other specialized Marines- know that they might spend time at a high-speed-low-drag unit and then end up somewhere else entirely, doing a job that no longer requires them to maintain the cutting edge skill they originally developed.  Although the practice of shuffling highly trained  Marines deep into the "deck of cards" has its benefits, there are some who argue about its drawbacks.

This article highlights some of the drawbacks in my opinion.




Invisible J said:


> ..._*the Corps wouldn't keep us in a SS billet,*_ so we all got out. I would have much rather had money for more schools and ammo than a new rifle.



Happens not only to Snipers, but other specialized Marines as well.  Some of that shuffling is good for the Corps, but the negative side of that practice has to be considered as well.


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## TheWookie (Oct 27, 2009)

Invisible J said:


> I would have much rather had money for more schools and ammo than a new rifle.



Exactly, and what JBS said.  My observation from afar is to stop rotating the best talent out of the STA platoons,, and give them more schools and training and they might stick around. :2c:


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## JBS (Oct 27, 2009)

I will say this, in defense of the "shuffling-the-deck" doctrines:  Moving that Ace of Spades Marine to another unit definitely has its benefits to the RECEIVING unit, wherever he arrives- if he is given the opportunity to transfer some of his knowledge and skills to the unit that is receiving him.    For a Sniper or Reconaissance Marine, that might be land navigation, additional marksmanship coaching, or fieldcraft, or even physical fitness best practices and work ethic.

The key is somehow allowing that Marine the opportunity to actually demonstrate and pass on some of his skills to the grunts/XYZ unit he is joining up with, so he is maintaining those skills through self study and preparation.  Not only with that individual stay reasonably current on the subject matter, but the unit that received him will benefit greatly.


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## TheWookie (Oct 27, 2009)

JBS said:


> I will say this, in defense of the "shuffling-the-deck" doctrines:  Moving that Ace of Spades Marine to another unit definitely has its benefits to the RECEIVING unit, wherever he arrives- if he is given the opportunity to transfer some of his knowledge and skills to the unit that is receiving him.    For a Sniper or Reconaissance Marine, that might be land navigation, additional marksmanship coaching, or fieldcraft, or even physical fitness best practices and work ethic.
> 
> The key is somehow allowing that Marine the opportunity to actually demonstrate and pass on some of his skills to the grunts/XYZ unit he is joining up with, so he is maintaining those skills through self study and preparation.  Not only with that individual stay reasonably current on the subject matter, but the unit that received him will benefit greatly.



I used to think this, but now I lean more towards the flip-side -- what happens when the Ace of Spades Marine leaves the unit?  The fleet benefits but the SOC units suffer.  That's _IF_, they go back to the fleet - most of em get out, I assume. They need to keep the talented and trained ones in-house to mentor the young guys.  Screw sending them to the regular grunts every three or four years -- wait until they are senior SNCO's.  Then they can spread their knowledge from there.  

I think if they do this STA bubbas will stick around longer, too.  :2c:

And I think regular grunts do just fine without former sun tan association member's coming back to the regular grunts to bother them.


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## JBS (Oct 27, 2009)

TheWookie said:


> I used to think this, but now I lean more towards the flip-side -- what happens when the Ace of Spades Marine leaves the unit?  The fleet benefits but the SOC units suffer.  That's _IF_, they go back to the fleet - most of em get out, I assume. They need to keep the talented and trained ones in-house to mentor the young guys.  Screw sending them to the regular grunts every three or four years -- wait until they are senior SNCO's.  Then they can spread their knowledge from there.
> 
> I think if they do this STA bubbas will stick around longer, too.  :2c:
> 
> And I think regular grunts do just fine without former sun tan association member's coming back to the regular grunts to bother them.



I can see both ends of the argument.  I just think it is a thorny issue that needs to be dealt with somehow.


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## Teufel (Oct 27, 2009)

JBS said:


> Can I mention the elephant in the room?
> 
> Like it or not the Corps doctrine of circulating and rotating highly specialized Marines into the FMF has everything to do with this situation, as well as many others, including retention.
> 
> I think the solution to this- as well as other related issues (SOF) is going to involve rethinking how Marines are shuffled throughout the Corps after spending time at XYZ unit.



Most school trained snipers nowadays don't really risk getting "shuffled" until they are SSgts and GySgts because of the small number of billets for a 0317 SSgt in the SS platoon.  Right now no specialized Marines are being shuffled or rotated into the fleet.  People are talking about it, but it hasn't happened yet.  It used to  happen with recon and snipers but those problems have largely been taken care of.  MARSOC is supposed to go that route but we will see if that happens or not.


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## JBS (Oct 27, 2009)

Teufel said:


> Most school trained snipers nowadays don't really risk getting "shuffled" until they are SSgts and GySgts because of the small number of billets for a 0317 SSgt in the SS platoon.  Right now no specialized Marines are being shuffled or rotated into the fleet.  People are talking about it, but it hasn't happened yet.  It used to  happen with recon and snipers but those problems have largely been taken care of.  MARSOC is supposed to go that route but we will see if that happens or not.



I would be glad if this issue went away entirely, as I'm sure most others would be.

I just know this has been talked about for (_at the very least)_ 15-20 years.

I can see the benefit of moving a SNCO into the grunts from an SOF unit, provided he is given the platform to diffuse his knowledge (and maybe even an incentive?).  If that is what is happening, then my view is they are (finally) on the right track!


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## Teufel (Oct 27, 2009)

Invisible J said:


> Don't get me wrong - I'm all for getting the latest and greatest gear; but getting a new gee whiz rifle without increasing range time and ammo allocations and improving training facilities is not the right answer.
> 
> I'm sure things have changed since I left the SS plt - but we were hitting the range once a month if we were lucky. 90% of our guys were school trained, but aside from a handfull of urban sniper slots, we couldn't get any follow-on training. After three years, we were all gone - the Corps wouldn't keep us in a SS billet, so we all got out. I would have much rather had money for more schools and ammo than a new rifle.



Honestly right now the shortfall is ammo not money- for whatever reason.  Guys are going to McMillan, Todd Hartnett, Blackwater, you name it, they're getting the advanced training and sustainment.  Life is good under the GWOT.  If a unit isn't training like that, it's a problem with that unit not the Marine Corps.

We are getting tons of rifles too, we got the $40,000 Darpa, the DMR, the SASR, Mk11, Mk12, and they just updated the M40 to the A4.  The problem is that none of these rifles can range past a grand aside from the heavy ass SASR which isn't even a sniper rifle.  The 7.62 crowd is great for shooting targets in Fallujah, but falls short in some of the long distance engagements  in Afghanistan.


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## 7point62 (Oct 27, 2009)

SoloKing said:


> Free floating .338, intergrated rail system, fully adjustable telescoping rear end, 2.5lbs pull on the trigger, internal 5 round top loading mag, Schmit and Bender 5X25 Horus vision retical on the first focal plane, harris bi pods and last but not least suppressed..................Anything and I mean ANYTHING less and the Marine Corp is fucking up.




x2 re .338 and all of the above. But maybe not the Heym.   

I don't think the Corps should rotate _any_ 0317s thru 0326's back into the Fleet unless as instructors. Seems like a waste of talent, not to mention the investment that went into their training. 

I had an E5 bud who was 8652 (now 0323) at 2/6 and I didn't learn a thing from him...except maybe projectile vomiting. :cool:


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## JimMCpog (Oct 27, 2009)

SoloKing said:


> Free floating .338, intergrated rail system, fully adjustable telescoping rear end, 2.5lbs pull on the trigger, internal 5 round top loading mag, Schmit and Bender 5X25 Horus vision retical on the first focal plane, harris bi pods and last but not least suppressed..................Anything and I mean ANYTHING less and the Marine Corp is fucking up.
> 
> The good Gunner is correct about training improvements, but not needing a bigger bolt gun................I would do Thunder Dome with the Gunner or any other Marine of any rank over this issue. It breaks my fucking heart that the Corps leadership can't or wont listen to the guys who are daily behind the scope risking their lives.  No disrepect to the Gunner, he is a great Marine and spent a life time doing this job, but I sill disagree and passionatly so on this point.



Maybe he's using this as a provocative way to highlight this problem? I'm sure he'd love to get this weapon as much as you would, but he's probably been stewing over this problem for years and is now seizing an excellent opportunity to "force the hand" of HQMC as much as it can be forced anyway...


If I really, really wanted this weapon (or even knew how to utilize it, as I do not) I would be lobbying/writing/hounding Congressman Jones to get more money for sniper training and facilities on Camp Lejeune and his counterpart in Cali (possibly Jane Harmon??) and why it's neccessary.


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## JimMCpog (Oct 27, 2009)

JBS said:


> I will say this, in defense of the "shuffling-the-deck" doctrines:  Moving that Ace of Spades Marine to another unit definitely has its benefits to the RECEIVING unit, wherever he arrives- if he is given the opportunity to transfer some of his knowledge and skills to the unit that is receiving him.    For a Sniper or Reconaissance Marine, that might be land navigation, additional marksmanship coaching, or fieldcraft, or even physical fitness best practices and work ethic.
> 
> The key is somehow allowing that Marine the opportunity to actually demonstrate and pass on some of his skills to the grunts/XYZ unit he is joining up with, so he is maintaining those skills through self study and preparation.  Not only with that individual stay reasonably current on the subject matter, but the unit that received him will benefit greatly.



I wonder if the Marine Corps uses retired Snipers as primary instructors in it's precision shooting courses, and if not, would this alleviate the problem?


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## RetPara (Oct 27, 2009)

This REALLY sounds like the debates in the Army before the creation of the SF 18 Series of MOS's in the 80's.  In the mid-term MARSOC units will alleviate some of the issues.  But the Corps is a small organization in comparison to the Army.  Historically the Corps has had internal prejudices against internal elite units or specialties (ParaMarines, Raiders, and until lately Recon).  

The Corps has been bringing in the cream of the recruit pool for generations, but often lose them early.  The sniper retention issue is a symptom of this.  

So the real long term solution is going to probably be an adjustment in Corps personnel policies and doctrine.  The Corps is going to need to realize that the some of the meat market personnel policies that currently in place.  There are going to have to be more specialties that are individually managed (snipers) through their entire career.  This means that some cross assignments will be needed to the regular FMF but in specialized billets.  Staff NCO billets are going to have to be coded to reserve them for specific specialties.  In reality the whole transformation of the Corps personnel system would be an incredible Thesis, if not a Dissertation topic.  I'm not talking about some kind of cookie cutter copy of an Army policy, but the type of innovative and original change the Corps has done time and again.


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## Rogers0317 (Oct 28, 2009)

What they should do is start off by passing the new T/O that has been proposed.  This has some SSgt Team Leaders and Gunny section leaders.  I don't know of any sniper platoons that have the guys to meet the new proposed T/Os.  Maybe it would force the monitors to have to track 0317 mos in order to properly man those spots, as well as keep 0317s from getting recruiting orders.  It might also force them to offer an 0317 bonus to help with retention.

If you think about it, when an 0317 picks up Sgt, he pretty much gets out, or moves over to Recon or MARSOC in order to avoid getting sucked into a b billet.  Thats the major problem in my opinion.  Of course some guys would still move to Recon or MARSOC regardless, but there are PLENTY of us who would rather stay in an infantry battalion and keep working as Scout Snipers.  Obviously the longer the USMC retains us, the more skill/experience we will be able to bring to the table.  

There are alot of positive things going on in the community.  The new Team Leaders Course is outstanding and I bet you would be hard pressed to find a better sniper course in the military or even on the civilian side.  The big problem is simply keeping 0317s in the community.  If the USMC can solve that, they can definitely solve alot.


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## JBS (Oct 28, 2009)

JimMCpog said:


> I wonder if the Marine Corps uses retired Snipers as primary instructors in it's precision shooting courses, and if not, would this alleviate the problem?



If you are talking about PMI's, this billet is filled by NCO's, and if I am not mistaken even an occasional LCpl, under certain circumstances.   Just the same, this is for Marine Corps *basic* rifle skills training, not "precision" shooting, per se; routine range qualification and ongoing training in the grunts.  I don't think the Corps is lacking in its basic marksmanship, as this the very heart and soul of the Corps.  We have "expert" qualified riflemen that cook, and drive trucks, and splice wires, and talk on phones, and can make head-shots at 500 yards with iron sights.  

As for "precision" courses, I have no idea what the practice is for SS School.  Some of the Snipers here can address that if they choose.


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## Hitman2/3 (Oct 29, 2009)

While I agree that more training is needed I also agree that a more powerful round is needed. The 175gr .308 is good to go from 0-800, and you can strech it out to a little over a grand, but at that point your basicaly lobbing rounds domn range. With this higher angle you've got longer flight time and more time for the round to be effected.

 If we upped it to the .338, with it flater trajectory, not only would we increase our range but also improve accuracy at the "shorter" ranges. Not to mention the bigger more powerful round has more applications for anti material. 

People who are not on the ground using the gear should not be making the decision on what gear we need. Ask the operator what he needs and get it for him, he's the expert in the fight so why second guess him. "We trust you to lead men behind enemy lines and perform a critical task, we just don't trust you to tell us what you need". Classic.


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## Hitman2/3 (Oct 29, 2009)

Real quick, on the training issue senior snipers have told their command and the Marine Corps what they need, and they are usualy ignored or told "that's nice this is what your getting".


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## Ajax (Oct 30, 2009)

SoloKing said:


> Free floating .338, intergrated rail system, fully adjustable telescoping rear end, 2.5lbs pull on the trigger, internal 5 round top loading mag, Schmit and Bender 5X25 Horus vision retical on the first focal plane, harris bi pods and last but not least suppressed..................Anything and I mean ANYTHING less and the Marine Corp is fucking up.
> 
> The good Gunner is correct about training improvements, but not needing a bigger bolt gun................I would do Thunder Dome with the Gunner or any other Marine of any rank over this issue. It breaks my fucking heart that the Corps leadership can't or wont listen to the guys who are daily behind the scope risking their lives.  No disrepect to the Gunner, he is a great Marine and spent a life time doing this job, but I sill disagree and passionatly so on this point.



Your mom has a fully adjustable telescoping rear end...


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## SoloKing (Oct 31, 2009)

Ajax said:


> Your mom has a fully adjustable telescoping rear end...



That shit is funny, I don't care who you are.


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## The91Bravo (Oct 31, 2009)

Tools without training RUST... period.

I do not care if the shooter gets a $20,000 rifle that shoots 1 MOA or he keeps his trusty bolt gun that shoots 1/2 MOA.... he has to have trigger time, or it is all for nothing.

I think the current inventory is adequate for the environment.  I was just at the range today and the 5th SOTIC students are fully utilizing the M110 SASS. (KA finally fixed the majority of the broken triggers that were with this lot).... and they were SHOOTING.  The instructors are a 70/30 split of active 18 series dudes and former SF snipers, and they are able to pass on the data that needs to be passed.

BUT, and this is a BIG BUT... you still cannot cure 'stupid'... had one of their students just yesterday get lost on a single point movement of 350 meters.... Shit you not.. he was lost for more than five hours.. all cadre and students doing grid searches.... and an instructor just decided to drive down the road 'that there is no way he made it that far'.. and there he was... sitting at an intersection more than 4 miles from the SP....

Cant cure stupid.. period  AND train, train, train..    Those are my 2 solutions to the current problem

rant done


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