# M9 Holster Advice



## pardus (Apr 5, 2012)

Ive been issued an M9 for full time carry.

Ive been issued a horrible holster, drop leg etc...

Most guys here that have after market holsters have a Blackhawk rig, that can be drop leg, hip, chest mount on armor as well as a shoulder rig set up.

Seems like a good set up but before I order one I wanted to know what rig you carry your M9 in tactically. i.e. with armor and without.

Thanks


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## Crusader74 (Apr 5, 2012)

I like Safariland holsters..Great retention and can be placed anywhere on your rig/setup.

http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=3085


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## LimaOscarSierraTango (Apr 5, 2012)

I've used the issued one, the Blackhawk Serpa, and what I believe was a Safariland Tactical holster.  I liked the Safariland on the leg.  I haven't had the Blackhawk on my armor, but I didn't have any issues with it on my hip or leg.  I was always worried about bumping the release button though.  I would recommend the Safariland tactical type, but I am sure someone with more experience than me will chime in with better info.


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## Crusader74 (Apr 5, 2012)

LimaOscarSierraTango said:


> I've used the issued one, the Blackhawk Serpa, and what I believe was a Safariland Tactical holster. I liked the Safariland on the leg. I haven't had the Blackhawk on my armor, but I didn't have any issues with it on my hip or leg. I was always worried about bumping the release button though. I would recommend the Safariland tactical type, but I am sure someone with more experience than me will chime in with better info.


 

I've used both. I do like the serpa but trust the better retention of the safailand.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 5, 2012)

I sold my dropleg Safariland to The Troll a while ago, but I have a Blackhawk one that looks like this, I liked it because it mounted high and square on the front of my body armor, I could get to it with either hand, it didn't get caught going into or out of a helicopter (or into and out of a desk :-/), it was in very securely (and I had it attached to a lanyard) and it was up high enough on my chest that it didn't get int the way if I needed to get into the prone.  If you want it, PM me your address.


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## RustyShackleford (Apr 5, 2012)

Pick up a Safariland ALS holster without the hood.


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## DA SWO (Apr 5, 2012)

How ya gonna carry?
Chest, thigh, drop leg?
M6's holster is a SERPA, which isn't viewed as favrably as they were 2-3 years ago.
Good holster, you just need to be aware of the limitations.
I have an old (black) Blackhawk Nylon leg holster if you are interested, along with some old school Bianchi's ;).


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## fox1371 (Apr 5, 2012)

I'm a big fan of the SERPA and the Safariland holsters. I used the SERPAs for a very long time, however ended up making the change to Safariland after some buddies had some issues with the SERPA.

Issues to be aware of (rare but still exist):
- There is a very slight possibility that a small object such as a pebble, can get lodged in the SERPA holster's release system. If this happens, your holster will lock up and you will be unable to draw your pistol. If you jump on Youtube, there are actually a few people that I believe made videos that show how it happens. It's a very rare thing, however I did have a buddy who's SERPA holster locked up on him.

- If for some unknown reason your finger is on the trigger as you draw your pistol, the SERPA is not right for you. There have been numerous idiots who have shot themselves in the leg doing this. Due to the design of the holster, and that you must use your trigger finger to depress the release...some people have been pressing that release with the tip of the trigger finger vs. the pad. Then when they go to draw the pistol, the trigger finger immediately slides into the trigger guard of the pistol and they shoot themselves before they are even pushed out on target. Not saying you would do this...just something to be aware of if you weren't already.

If you plan on moving the holster to your chest, I would suggest the SERPA. If not, I would definitely go with the Safariland holster.


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## pardus (Apr 5, 2012)

The Safariland looks good, is it able to be detached and used in different places as the blackhawk is? (I havent had a good chance to look at the website yet, I'm having some internet issues)



SOWT said:


> How ya gonna carry?
> Chest, thigh, drop leg?


 
Thats a good question, I kind of want it to be able to go anywhere, hip, leg, chest. Thats why I liked the blackhawk set up.

I'm going to be carrying with and without armor on and off the FOB.


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## Crusader74 (Apr 5, 2012)

pardus said:


> The Safariland looks good, is it able to be detached and used in different places as the blackhawk is? (I havent had a good chance to look at the website yet, I'm having some internet issues)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 

Safailand has the ability to put on rigs using the quick attachment system..


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## Marauder06 (Apr 5, 2012)

pardus said:


> The Safariland looks good, is it able to be detached and used in different places as the blackhawk is? (I havent had a good chance to look at the website yet, I'm having some internet issues)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


 
I used two different holsters for that.  The Blackhawk stayed on my body armor, and I had a hip holster that I wore under my uniform top.  Switching your holster back and forth off your body armor is a PITA, IMO.


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## Polar Bear (Apr 5, 2012)

Waistband, my gangster Brother


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## x SF med (Apr 5, 2012)

Apparently they won't let you go with the "Kiwi Pirate Gun in the Teeth" method you like to use.


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## pardus (Apr 5, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> I used two different holsters for that. The Blackhawk stayed on my body armor, and I had a hip holster that I wore under my uniform top. Switching your holster back and forth off your body armor is a PITA, IMO.


 
Does your blackhawk holster have the quick connect wheel on the holster?


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## moobob (Apr 5, 2012)

Serpa or Safariland ALS are both solid. Safariland makes a molle kit that can quickly be mounted on your armor or onto a waist/dropleg, but it felt really flimsy to me.


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## x SF med (Apr 5, 2012)

Pardus...  don't listen to Bob, he's spent the day mostly dead.


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## moobob (Apr 5, 2012)

x SF med said:


> Pardus... don't listen to Bob, he's spent the day mostly dead.


 
Or don't take your pistol outside the wire. Best advice ever.


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## Brill (Apr 5, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> ...I have a Blackhawk one that looks like this, I liked it because it mounted high and square on the front of my body armor, I could get to it with either hand, it didn't get caught going into or out of a helicopter (or into and out of a desk :-/), it was in very securely (and I had it attached to a lanyard) and it was up high enough on my chest that it didn't get int the way if I needed to get into the prone. If you want it, PM me your address.


 
How do you fast rope with it on your front?


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## 0699 (Apr 5, 2012)

pardus said:


> The Safariland looks good, is it able to be detached and used in different places as the blackhawk is? (I havent had a good chance to look at the website yet, I'm having some internet issues)
> 
> 
> 
> ...


My last deployment, we always wore armor off base.  I used a Blackhawk Serpa just like Mara pictured on my high chest.  On the FOB, I carried my pistol in an issue leather shoulder holster.  I agree with Mara, trying to move a holster into different configurations is a MAJOR PITA.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 5, 2012)

lindy said:


> How do you fast rope with it on your front?


 
Fastroping was not in my job description. ;)  The black helicopters landed, I got on, they flew around a little bit, they landed, I got off, no drama.


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## DA SWO (Apr 5, 2012)

lindy said:


> How do you fast rope with it on your front?


The ruck sack pulls you away from the rope and it doesn't rub against you.


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## pardus (Apr 5, 2012)

RustyShackleford said:


> Pick up a Safariland ALS holster without the hood.


 
I'm looking at them now, there are dozens of them lol

I hate to be asked to be spoon fed guys but any idea on models?

6355, or 6385?

Even the 6304 looks good if I were to remove the hood guard and leave the SLS hood for extra security.


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## policemedic (Apr 6, 2012)

Which M9- did you get the new one with the light rail? If so, a light will be in your goodie box.

On to the holster. Some random thoughts:

On the chest
a. accessible to both hands
b. takes up space on IBA
c. IMHO, more likely to pick up crap from hitting prone (and depending on the holster, the crap is more or less likely to hang up i.e. the SERPA).
d. Weapon is disabled if hit/fragged in the chest plate; possibility of ricochet

On the waist
a. accessible to both hands with practice
b. if mounted to a Brokos belt or similar, can be worn the same way on or off the FOB.
c. can be concealed if required
d. may not be comfortable with IBA

On the thigh
a. accessible to both hands with practice
b. allows your IBA space to be used for ammo and medic stuff
c. may shift a bit when running (what doesn't?)
d. doesn't interfere with prone, and can be reached from prone without raising your silhouette

Looking at it from another viewpoint, I believe it's bad juju to keep changing the location of your pistol. The key to becoming good with anything is consistency in the application of the basics. You need to train from one holster, carried in the same position, over and over so that when you do need to pull that pistol you don't have a brain fart trying to decide where the pistol is. This will also make training for one handed manipulations much easier.

Here's what I do, YMMV. I wear a 6004 Safariland tactical holster on my leg. For a number of reasons, I don't like SERPAs. The 6004 protects the gun, keeps it secure, clears my armor, and because the gun is always in the same position training is simplified. I also don't flag my buddies when training. My armor is slick on the right side so as not to snag the gun. The front of the vest has extra 5.56 mags and pistol mags, but is also dedicated to carrying medical supplies. I tend to work out of my vest (at least at first), so this works well for me. Of course, my AO is straight up big city urban so take all of this in context.

If you go with a leg holster, you have the advantage of one method of carry on or off the FOB. Tip- it shouldn't hang low on your thigh like a cowboy rig. It should be adjusted low enough to clear your IBA so it rides high on your thigh.


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## pardus (Apr 6, 2012)

policemedic said:


> Which M9- did you get the new one with the light rail? If so, a light will be in your goodie box.
> 
> On to the holster. Some random thoughts:
> 
> ...


 
The leg rig makes sense I know, I had it set up there and fucking hated it. Ive never liked shit on my legs. Admittedly it was slung low though. I'll try it a little higher.
My armor is pretty bulky and I have to have my IFAK on my right side. Also have a medical pouch for treating patients.
This is all a work in progress with brand new gear, not ideal for going into combat but there it is.




policemedic said:


> Which M9- did you get the new one with the light rail? If so, a light will be in your goodie box.


 

No this is the Army, I got an old one. lol


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## DA SWO (Apr 6, 2012)

pardus said:


> The leg rig makes sense I know, I had it set up there and fucking hated it. Ive never liked shit on my legs. Admittedly it was slung low though. I'll try it a little higher.
> My armor is pretty bulky and I have to have my IFAK on my right side. Also have a medical pouch for treating patients.
> This is all a work in progress with brand new gear, not ideal for going into combat but there it is.


Put it between your legs, what possibilities.
You can grab your gun with both hands
Imagine the awesome conversations with those in charge....
Pardus, what the fuck are you doing?
Just checking my gun sir!


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## shortbrownguy (Apr 6, 2012)

lindy said:


> How do you fast rope with it on your front?


If the rope is dragging against the front of your plate carrier, your doing it wrong;).


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## TLDR20 (Apr 6, 2012)

I don't like it on my chest as there is a chance I could have to climb or low crawl. I have a belt Sherpa with an extender that sits on my upper thigh. It is rigid and doesn't ride down and stays in place.


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## TLDR20 (Apr 6, 2012)

I will give you mine for next to nothing. I have no need for it as I have a glock now. I can post a pic. But the way mine is set up, I can transfer my pistol in about 10 seconds from my leg to chest(depending on if mounted) if you do change it you need to train your muscle memory.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 7, 2012)

I am not reading through all thats said, but I have several types of holsters for the M9 and I have no problem loaning you one. I have 2 or 3 SERPA's (paddle, molle and the drop rig) I also have a Safariland 6004 drop rig (old model with the hood), I have another cheap paddle (I forget the maker).

If you are not into any of those, I would reccomend Trojan Tactical (www.trotac.com) and getting the scabberd holster. John (the owner) gives discounts to MIL & LE, and he is a very cool dude. Tell him that Joseph Bell with Tactical Immersion told you to order from him and he may give you a better discount. I am still working on a product review for his gear, but I have been running the last 3.5 months and I have yet to have any issues. I think his gear is better than 75% of the kydex stuff being sold in the market today. Just good solid gear, built well and made to last.


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## policemedic (Apr 7, 2012)

pardus said:


> No this is the Army, I got an old one. lol


 
What was I thinking


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## pardus (Apr 7, 2012)

Thank you all for the great advice and the generous offers.

I'm going to take Mara and cback up on their generous offers, should do me fine for what I need.

The Safariland looks awesome but cant beat the price of those SHERPAs lol

When I graduate from the RANGER freefall SEAL sniper school and get attached to DELTA's CIA hit squad unit I'll upgrade.


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## CDG (Apr 7, 2012)

pardus said:


> When I graduate from the Ranger freefall SEAL sniper school and get attached to DELTA's CIA hit squad unit I'll upgrade.


 
Never gonna happen if you keep up these OPSEC violations.


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## pardus (Apr 7, 2012)

Oh yeah.....   lol


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## RustyShackleford (Apr 10, 2012)

pardus said:


> I'm looking at them now, there are dozens of them lol
> 
> I hate to be asked to be spoon fed guys but any idea on models?
> 
> ...


 
I have this one, minus that plastic cover for a Glock 22 w/ light: http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=6384

FWIW, I carry handguns on my hip, not on the thigh.  Just personal preference.


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## pardus (Apr 10, 2012)

RustyShackleford said:


> I have this one, minus that plastic cover for a Glock 22 w/ light: http://www.safariland.com/DutyGear/product.aspx?pid=6384
> 
> FWIW, I carry handguns on my hip, not on the thigh. Just personal preference.


 
Great, thanks for that.


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## Aultimus Prime (May 13, 2012)

Anyone have any experience with the g-code holster?  I'm using one now and so far I'm very happy with it.


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## TLDR20 (May 13, 2012)

The setup I gave Pardus is G-code.


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## pardus (May 13, 2012)

cback0220 said:


> The setup I gave Pardus is G-code.


 
I wear it everyday, I like it a lot.


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## Etype (May 13, 2012)

I use the G-C0de mounting stuff with a Safariland ALS (hoodless variety), it's the hot fire.


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## policemedic (May 13, 2012)

It's entirely mission dependent.  For me, a Safariland 6004 or Raven Concealment Systems Phantom holster work well.  I've used both for years.  What I wear depends on whether I'm in blacks or clothes.  Of course, I no longer am afflicted with the M9, but when I was I still preferred the same setup.

A pistol's a pistol; your mission, body type, and other gear (e.g. for me, mounting the pistol on my armor never made sense) are the main factors that affect holster choice in my view.  

FWIW, I ran a 1911 in a DSG Alpha holster while I was in Florida for a week +, it worked very well and compared favorably to the Raven products.  Service was excellent, and there was no 4 month wait-I had it a few days after I ordered it.  Texans make good shit


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## Etype (May 13, 2012)

x2 for the raven concealment.  I don't like the 6004 though, I've become partial to disliking hoods.


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## Kraut783 (May 13, 2012)

Always liked the 6004 style....agree the hood sucks, but I just remove it.


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## policemedic (May 13, 2012)

The hood only bothered me for a day or two.  I'd been using traditional thumb break duty rigs, and when Safariland came out with the SLS system, it took me a day or two to get used to it.  After some practice, it wasn't an issue.  Mine also wears the hood guard and the sentry switch.  The mission drives the gear train.


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## Etype (May 13, 2012)

Etype said:


> partial to disliking hoods.


That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it?  Partial to disliking...


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## SkrewzLoose (May 13, 2012)

Etype said:


> That sounds ridiculous, doesn't it? Partial to disliking...


 
So do I like or hate this post?


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## AWP (May 13, 2012)

So how many of you saw Pardus asking about holster advice and your first thought was "Go see a dentist."?


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## Etype (May 13, 2012)

Or maybe a proctologist.


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## pardus (May 14, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> So how many of you saw Pardus asking about holster advice and your first thought was "Go see a dentist."?


 
I know where you live now.


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## TLDR20 (May 14, 2012)

pardus said:


> I know where you live now.



You should throw up a pic of the holster.


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## AWP (May 14, 2012)

pardus said:


> I know where you live now.


 
We're talking mouth rape and you proposition me?

Now THAT'S gay.


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## DA SWO (May 14, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> So how many of you saw Pardus asking about holster advice and your first thought was "Go see a dentist."?


Funny, I thought he needed a throat specialist.


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## pardus (May 14, 2012)

Here you go...

I made it super high speed with a reflective belt.


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## RetPara (May 14, 2012)

What the hell is wrong with this one?  Am I just too old school to be cool?   You can adjust the strap to put it on your chest.  You adjust the strap for underarm cross draw.  Then for the TRULY high speed... you can wear under your civilian clothes?


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## Marauder06 (May 14, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> So how many of you saw Pardus asking about holster advice and your first thought was "Go see a dentist."?


 
I was going to send him some magazine pouches... but you don't really need that when you don't even rate a full mag in the first place.


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## DA SWO (May 14, 2012)

RetPara said:


> What the hell is wrong with this one? Am I just too old school to be cool? You can adjust the strap to put it on your chest. You adjust the strap for underarm cross draw. Then for the TRULY high speed... you can wear under your civilian clothes?


You "flash" the folks around you as you draw the weapon out.


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## pardus (May 15, 2012)

I probably look down the barrel of a pistol every day because some asshole with a shoulder holster has his weapon set so that the barrel is vertical. All branches and all ranks. It seems to me that the only plus for a shoulder holster is that is comfy when you're in PTs, apart from that its a slow two handed way to draw. Some people are just too stupid to use it as well.


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## 0699 (May 15, 2012)

pardus said:


> I probably look down the barrel of a pistol every day because some asshole with a shoulder holster has his weapon set so that the barrel is vertical. All branches and all ranks. It seems to me that the only plus for a shoulder holster is that is comfy when you're in PTs, apart from that its a slow two handed way to draw. Some people are just too stupid to use it as well.


 
A shoulder holster is also nice when you work at a desk all day, as belt or thigh holsters get snagged on the chair arm when you get off your ass to get coffee.


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## Etype (May 15, 2012)

A shoulder holster IS good when you ride the desk all day at the FOB, or are in PTs.  Then you realize you are at a desk, on the FOB, in PTs, and don't really need a gun.


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## DA SWO (May 15, 2012)

Etype said:


> A shoulder holster IS good when you ride the desk all day at the FOB, or are in PTs. Then you realize you are at a desk, on the FOB, in PTs, and don't really need a gun.


But you are required to have a weapon.  I never worried about shoulder holstered weapons because I know they are unloaded.  FOBBIT's RULE Baby!
I like the reflective belt for the weapon, any comments on it yet?


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## Marauder06 (May 15, 2012)

Etype said:


> A shoulder holster IS good when you ride the desk all day at the FOB, or are in PTs. Then you realize you are at a desk, on the FOB, in PTs, and don't really need a gun.


 
Well, you need one to get into the chow hall... and if the Haqqanis decide to attack your base again.


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## AWP (May 15, 2012)

SOWT said:


> But you are required to have a weapon. I never worried about shoulder holstered weapons because I know they are unloaded. FOBBIT's RULE Baby!
> I like the reflective belt for the weapon, any comments on it yet?


 
In 2004 or 2005 (my memory is slipping), Camp Cunningham at Bagram had an ECP to enter camp. The Security Forces Squadron (I think they were a very large Flight back then) would randomly check all weapons entering and exiting the camp. On any given day, 10-30% of those weapons had a round in the chamber and about 10% of those weren't on SAFE.

Somewhere around 05-06 the AF went to the Army and basically said "This is your base, but we're goinig to stop issuing our airmen weapons." The Army said that wouldn't happen. The AF tried to issue everyone M-9's...that didn't happen (The Army or logistics, I forget the cause for that decision). The AF tried to allow airmen to leave them in weapon racks...nope, Big Army said they will carry one at all times unless doing PT.

Do you know how many airmen started wearing PT's until that was policed up? I can't say that I blame the Blue for that.

Now on Bagram you have airmen walking around with ginormous pieces of duct tape in all manner of colors with the weapon's serial, owner and rank, and the shop's number. Some sport a simple, "If found, call..." and at least a senior NCo's name and number are listed. One rotation saw many of the airmen affix a tag to their front sight post with this info. (Feel free to discuss which is worse: a tag or purple/ orange/ pink/ neon green 100 mph tape)

On the Army side I'm aware of the base policies concerning weapons handling and have tried to correct MP's, officers, and soldiers when they were doing stupid shit. I've had MPs tell me to "fuck off" and that "If I mattered I'd have a weapon" or "You don't have a weapon so why do you care about the rules?"

Don't even bring up reporting any of this to my COC...went there, nothing happened, got the high blood pressure.

Until recently, the AF wasn't zeroing their weapons in country. That policy finally changed after several years where they were handed an M-16 at Bagram, maybe cleaned it once or twice, and then handed it back in at the end of their rotation.

Armed Army and AF fobbits are the devil's work. I could go on and on, but the reality is that "weapons + fobbitts = FAIL." The branch is irrelevant, I just happen to see more of the AF than the Army.

I know of one SF unit with a few ND's, one resulting in a self-inflicted 9MM to the calf by an 18A.

Stupid is EVERYWHERE....AND IT IS ARMED!


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## Kraut783 (May 15, 2012)

SOWT said:


> But you are required to have a weapon. I never worried about shoulder holstered weapons because I know they are unloaded. FOBBIT's RULE Baby!
> I like the reflective belt for the weapon, any comments on it yet?


 
.....hehe....reflector belt.....hehe....


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## Etype (May 15, 2012)

I think the constant game of changing the status of your weapon is cause for a lot of NDs. I have a theory that I put into practice at our VSP, and it proved to be true, at least in my small pool of subjects. We had an uplift squad of tankers, and a platoon of infantry who shared our VSP by our permission. I made a decree (speaking with an English accent) that all personal weapons shall remain loaded at all times whether they are sitting under your bed, being carried, or otherwise- you unload it to clean it, then you load it again. About 45 guys over a period of 8 months, zero NDs. It's always loaded, you're always careful with it, you're not doing the clearing ritual daily.

That's exactly what clearing a weapon into a barrel becomes, a mindless ritual- then you have guys shooting into a barrel. It's not a big deal, because you are ND'ing harmlessly into a barrel full of sand. I bet if the military mandated that all clearing be done while aiming the weapon at your knee, there would be a lot less NDs.


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## DA SWO (May 15, 2012)

Etype said:


> I think the constant game of changing the status of your weapon is cause for a lot of NDs. I have a theory that I put into practice at our VSP, and it proved to be true, at least in my small pool of subjects. We had an uplift squad of tankers, and a platoon of infantry who shared our VSP by our permission. I made a decree (speaking with an English accent) that all personal weapons shall remain loaded at all times whether they are sitting under your bed, being carried, or otherwise- you unload it to clean it, then you load it again. About 45 guys over a period of 8 months, zero NDs. It's always loaded, you're always careful with it, you're not doing the clearing ritual daily.
> 
> That's exactly what clearing a weapon into a barrel becomes, a mindless ritual- then you have guys shooting into a barrel. It's not a big deal, because you are ND'ing harmlessly into a barrel full of sand. I bet if the military mandated that all clearing be done while aiming the weapon at your knee, there would be a lot less NDs.


No, we'd see guys just in-country capping themselves.


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## policemedic (May 15, 2012)

Etype said:


> I think the constant game of changing the status of your weapon is cause for a lot of NDs. I have a theory that I put into practice at our VSP, and it proved to be true, at least in my small pool of subjects. We had an uplift squad of tankers, and a platoon of infantry who shared our VSP by our permission. I made a decree (speaking with an English accent) that all personal weapons shall remain loaded at all times whether they are sitting under your bed, being carried, or otherwise- you unload it to clean it, then you load it again. About 45 guys over a period of 8 months, zero NDs. It's always loaded, you're always careful with it, you're not doing the clearing ritual daily.
> 
> That's exactly what clearing a weapon into a barrel becomes, a mindless ritual- then you have guys shooting into a barrel. It's not a big deal, because you are ND'ing harmlessly into a barrel full of sand. I bet if the military mandated that all clearing be done while aiming the weapon at your knee, there would be a lot less NDs.


 
Holy shit.  Common sense has been located; note the grid and pop green smoke.


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## Ranger Psych (May 16, 2012)

We ran aircraft loaded in camp and chambered otherwise. Only issue we had was with mk19's.

While it was implemented when we started operating out of our MSS, running with a weapon inside the compound was removed by our 1SG after he saw me trucking around doing laps for time with a M67. Then again, we were no more than 2 minutes from our racks inside the compound, so with guards posted etc it was somewhat of a silly idea.


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## pardus (May 16, 2012)

SOWT said:


> I like the reflective belt for the weapon, any comments on it yet?


 
No, people are too intimidated by how high speed I look.



Freefalling said:


> Now on Bagram you have airmen walking around with ginormous pieces of duct tape in all manner of colors


 
On my way to the unit from the aircraft I saw a female with bright pink tape all over her M16, I wondered WTF was up with that. Figured she was doing disco ops.



SOWT said:


> No, we'd see guys just in-country capping themselves.


 
Good, they deserve it. NO excuse for a ND.


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## 0699 (May 16, 2012)

Etype said:


> A shoulder holster IS good when you ride the desk all day at the FOB, or are in PTs. Then you realize you are at a desk, on the FOB, in PTs, and don't really need a gun.


 
Exactly.  For clarirty, I used a shoulder holster similar to the one RetPara pictured, except it was black and had a chest strap.

Some days I carried my M4 to the office, just so I didn't feel like a total office putz...


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## 0699 (May 16, 2012)

pardus said:


> Good, they deserve it. *NO excuse for a ND*.


 
Desert Storm 1990.  I saw a Navy Seabee Captain discharge 2 rounds from an M9 into a clearing barrel.  He was getting ready to fire off a third one, but the Marine on duty (his post was ~25 feet away; he started moving after the first round was fired) grabbed his weapon from him and removed the magazine. :-"


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## DA SWO (May 16, 2012)

0699 said:


> Desert Storm 1990. I saw a Navy Seabee Captain discharge 2 rounds from an M9 into a clearing barrel. He was getting ready to fire off a third one, but the Marine on duty (his post was ~25 feet away; he started moving after the first round was fired) grabbed his weapon from him and removed the magazine. :-"


2002 I saw an Army Lt do the same thing at Eagle Base in Bosnia.


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## Etype (May 16, 2012)

0699 said:


> Desert Storm 1990. I saw a Navy Seabee Captain discharge 2 rounds from an M9 into a clearing barrel. He was getting ready to fire off a third one, but the Marine on duty (his post was ~25 feet away; he started moving after the first round was fired) grabbed his weapon from him and removed the magazine. :-"


He was using the "clear by test fire" method, it's in the manual.


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## Crusader74 (May 16, 2012)

Etype said:


> He was using the "clear by test fire" method, it's in the manual.


 
What, the whole magazine?  lol

In all fairness, how long does it take to cock a weapon?  Any one entering the DFAC in Butmir had to clear their weapon in a unloading bay and AFAIK there was no ND's during my rotation.


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## Etype (May 16, 2012)

Irish said:


> What, the whole magazine? lol


Sure.

The only reason people ND multiple times into a clearing barrel is because there's no reason not to, the bullet is going harmlessly into the dirt.

It all goes back to the clearing barrel. It's like conducting airborne operations from a helicopter, that is 8 ft off the ground- it doesn't really matter what you do, you'll be fine. The clearing barrel takes all of the danger and responsibility out of weapon handling and makes for an artificially safe environment that's not always going to be there for you.

I also don't agree with the Army socialist system where no one is allowed to be empowered by having a loaded weapon on base, in the US or overseas. Would a coward like MAJ Nidal Hassan have the gall to expose himself as an extremist pig in front of brave men and women by turning a gun on them if had known they may have potentially been carrying guns? Or would he have kept his deficiencies deep within his closet where they had been festering so far?


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## pardus (May 16, 2012)

People cock their weapons, they just don't remove the magazine.

The problem is there is no kept standard for weapons training. Most people have pitiful weapons skills. I was shocked outside the first DFAC I was at where people had to clear their weapons. I would have failed 80 - 90% of them if I had applied my old training standards, that is literally hundreds of people per meal, officers and SNCOs included.
The problem is systematic and no one is interested in fixing it.


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## Crusader74 (May 16, 2012)

Etype said:


> Sure.
> 
> The only reason people ND multiple times into a clearing barrel is because there's no reason not to, the bullet is going harmlessly into the dirt.
> 
> It all goes back to the clearing barrel. It's like conducting airborne operations from a helicopter- that is 10 ft off the ground. The clearing barrel takes all of the danger and responsibility out of weapon handling and makes for an artificially safe environment that's not always going to be there for you.


 

So they don't unload the weapon, pull the charging handle/slide to the rear and clear the action ?


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## Etype (May 16, 2012)

They do, but having a clearing barrel eliminates any negative repercussions. They are conditioned to not be careful while doing it, because nothing can go wrong. Then one day, they are clearing their weapon (a task they have done mindlessly and carelessly for hundreds of repetitions) without the aid of a clearing barrel and BANG.

Guns are dangerous, that's the point. We should leave them that way and be careful with them, we shouldn't be trying to defang them.

On top of that, most support personnel don't understand the danger of weapons because its never been realized for them. The only battle damage they have ever seen is in pictures or videos. With modern television, we're largely immunized to pictures and videos- it means nothing. The average dude doesn't understand how terribly it really is when someone gets shot- hell, Mel Gibson's been shot a bunch of times, and he's fine.


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## 0699 (May 16, 2012)

Etype said:


> He was using the "clear by test fire" method, it's in the manual.


 
The funniest (or saddest; depends on your POV...) part of the story is that a few days later they took all the ammo away from sergeants and below, only to be issued back out if we left the pier, due to the number of NDs into the clearing barrel.  Well the antenna farm was across the street from the MEB CP.  I spent 12-15 hours a day across the street from the clearing barrel and saw a LOT of NDs.  Funny part was, they were all SNCOs & officers shooting M9s into the barrel.  How does taking ammo away from the troops fix the problem of SNCOs & officers having NDs?!? :ehh:


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## Crusader74 (May 16, 2012)

Etype said:


> *On top of that, most support personnel don't understand the danger of weapons because its never been realized for them.* .


 
That is a scary statement considering the US are meant to be one of the best Armed forces in the world for training..   Is there not a centralised doctrine for rules on weapon handling?


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## Etype (May 16, 2012)

I'm saying, they've never seen the effects of a weapon beyond rounds impacting in the dirt.


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## Mac_NZ (May 16, 2012)

It was $1200 fine for us on the first ND with an orderly room and the conviction recorded in the individuals file (NJP? for you guys), second one would get you sent home.


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## policemedic (May 16, 2012)

pardus said:


> People cock their weapons, they just don't remove the magazine.
> 
> The problem is there is no kept standard for weapons training. Most people have pitiful weapons skills. I was shocked outside the first DFAC I was at where people had to clear their weapons. I would have failed 80 - 90% of them if I had applied my old training standards, that is literally hundreds of people per meal, officers and SNCOs included.
> The problem is systematic and no one is interested in fixing it.


 
I'm morbidly interested in what you saw.


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## Etype (May 16, 2012)

Mac_NZ said:


> It was $1200 fine for us on the first ND with an orderly room and the conviction recorded in the individuals file (NJP? for you guys), second one would get you sent home.


I'm afraid that in the regular army, it's swept under the carpet more often than not.  You should be tarred and feathered, or were an "I ND'ed" sandwich board for a month.


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## 0699 (May 16, 2012)

Mac_NZ said:


> It was $1200 fine for us on the first ND with an orderly room and the conviction recorded in the individuals file (NJP? for you guys), second one would get you sent home.


 
That's great unless the first ND of the deployment is done by a major.  Kind of sets the tone for the entire deployment...


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## Mac_NZ (May 16, 2012)

We did have a Major ND, S4 IIRC.


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## 0699 (May 16, 2012)

Mac_NZ said:


> We did have a Major ND, S4 IIRC.


 
And?


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## Mac_NZ (May 16, 2012)

0699 said:


> And?


 
Fined $1200, disgraced and used as an example to the Battalion of the dangers of complacency at all levels.  

We were told exactly who it was, what had happened and that he had been charged and fined the same as everyone else would be.  It was hammered home to us that if a Major could do it (which confused most of us as we all know birdshit on the shoulders = birdshit in the brain) anyone could do it and to to not be complacent with weapons. 

However I think Etype's solution is the best, everyone stay in the action, keep the finger off the titty and be aware of where your muzzle is pointing at all times.  Hmm, reminds me of a lesson I had once.


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## Crusader74 (May 17, 2012)

Etype said:


> I'm saying, they've never seen the effects of a weapon beyond rounds impacting in the dirt.


Roger that. I misunderstood your initial answer. cheers for clearing that up.


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## 0699 (May 17, 2012)

Mac_NZ said:


> Fined $1200, disgraced and used as an example to the Battalion of the dangers of complacency at all levels.
> 
> We were told exactly who it was, what had happened and that he had been charged and fined the same as everyone else would be. It was hammered home to us that if a Major could do it (which confused most of us as we all know birdshit on the shoulders = birdshit in the brain) anyone could do it and to to not be complacent with weapons.
> 
> *However I think Etype's solution is the best, everyone stay in the action, keep the finger off the titty and be aware of where your muzzle is pointing at all times. Hmm, reminds me of a lesson I had once*.


 
Good.  I would be very surprised if the same consequences were applied in the US military.  I've seen officers and SNCOs do some seriously stupid stuff that got swept under the carpet.  The confusing part is that the junior enlisted all knew what had happened, so although the goal was (I think) to not embarass the officer, the effect was to make the junior enlisted believe the officers were immune to punishment.

I hate to quote a movie, but the line _"This is my safety"_ always seemed to ring true with me.  The best safety is the one between your ears...


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## pardus (May 17, 2012)

0699 said:


> That's great unless the first ND of the deployment is done by a major. Kind of sets the tone for the entire deployment...


 
See that's the problem right there, everyone here knows that if someone with rank does it it will be overlooked. Meaning there is no standard (or an unenforced one).
To be fair though, an Officer misplaced his pistol one day a while back, my whole BDE was called out. The BDE commander had the entire BDE in formation and along with the BDE SGM went to each and every company and personally apologized to the troops for being fucked around due to the offending officer's unprofessional behavior. 

Mac's example is the solution, zero tolerance and blind to rank. You do the crime to do the time, period!



policemedic said:


> I'm morbidly interested in what you saw.


 
The worst thing I see and I see it almost everytime, is people NEVER look into the chamber when they cock a weapon.
A, you don't see if there is a magazine in the weapon.
B, you don't see if a round is chambered. 

We (NZ INF) were taught to ALWAYS look into the chamber when the weapon is cocked, whether to confirm it's clear or to ensure that a round was properly loaded before firing. 

While we are on the subject, I fucking *HATE* to see troops holding their weapons with one hand, by the pistol grip with the rifle trailing along. Makes my blood boil every time, just slovenly and unprofessional, looks like a third world guerrilla from west africa.


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## Etype (May 17, 2012)

pardus said:


> You do the crime to do the time, period!


Tell that to the Obama administration- notably Geitner and Holder.


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## Marauder06 (May 18, 2012)

One of the reasons we have so many NDs is because we spend so little time on weapons-related tasks. Even in combat arms units, weapons training takes a back seat to a lot of other things.  This is an Army-wide institutionalized phenomenon.  

Take a look at the policy letters for a unit.  Any unit.  We're raised in the military to "put the bottom line up front," so therefore the things that are most important to the commander should be reflected in the first couple of policy letters, right?  So what are the first ones, usually?  Open door policy, prevention of sexual harrassment, equal opportunity, and consideration of others are usually the very first ones listed.  Those are all important things for a unit, but what about the reason the unit is constituted in the first place?  If you have a unit that gets around to anything training- or mission-related in the top ten policy letters, you're doing pretty good.


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## Ladder Guy (Apr 6, 2013)

One additional issue I have seen is where people become so complacent on looking for no brass in the barrel and yet do not "see" a round that has been chambered when they drop the magazine with an open slide. Ineffect, the lack of attention to detail is tricking them into seeing the lack of brass from a magazine as a lack of brass throughout the weapon.


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## AWP (Apr 6, 2013)

Gabe Maldona, Post an Introduction in the correct subforum before posting again.
Thank you.


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