# Two soldiers shot dead in south-west France



## Crusader74 (Mar 16, 2012)

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-17389013


Two soldiers have been killed and a third wounded by a gunman on a scooter who opened fire near a military base at Montauban in southern France.
Earlier reports said all three had died. Police said the soldiers were withdrawing cash, but theft did not appear to be the motive.
The attacker, wearing a helmet with a visor, sped off after opening fire.
The attack took place near a military base housing the country's 17th Parachute Engineer Regiment.
Some 15 spent cartridges were found at the scene, police said.
"The theft was not the motive of the murders," a police official in Montauban told the BBC, adding that all avenues of inquiry were currently open.
He described a potential link between Thursday's shootings and the gunning down of another soldier in Toulouse on Sunday as "a possibility, not a certainty".
The two soldiers who died were aged 24 and 26 and the third, aged 28, is in hospital. French media reports quoting officials earlier said that the third soldier had died from his injuries, but the defence ministry and police later said he remained in a critical condition.
France's Defence Minister, Gerard Longuet, issued a statement expressing his "deepest sorrow at the assassination of the two soldiers, and the wounding of a third".
He said he had every confidence that the police would ensure justice was achieved in the case.
A large number of police officers are already involved in an extensive search for the gunman and prosecutors have said that they are considering a number of possibilities, including that the shooting was the result of a personal dispute.
*The incident follows another shooting, on Sunday, when a 30-year-old soldier was shot dead by an assailant on a motorcycle in a residential area of Toulouse, 29 miles (46km) south of Montauban.*
The south-west of the country is home to all of France's elite airborne units.


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## x SF med (Mar 16, 2012)

Damn...  I thought this was going to be about a duel, not French scooter punks dropping soldiers in scoot-bys.  But, it is France...  socialism at its finest.


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## LibraryLady (Mar 16, 2012)

RIP to the deceased and prayers out to all affected by this loss.

LL


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## ManBearPig (Mar 17, 2012)

RIP


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## TheSiatonist (Mar 17, 2012)

RIP


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## pardus (Mar 17, 2012)

I doubt the FrenchArmy will take this lying down.

I wouldn't be surprised in the slightest if this was muslim terror related, though simple gang violence would be on the cards too.

Where's Rapid?


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## Rapid (Mar 17, 2012)

The investigators aren't ruling anything out, including terrorism. In both incidents, he targeted paratroopers. All four targets were ethnic minorities as well, so there's always the unfortunate possibility that this was racially motivated. Perhaps even a former/current soldier who can't stand Arabs or Blacks being in 'his' army -- sad, but we all know those kind of people exist. He hasn't left behind much evidence either. Just one mag on the ground, with the fingerprints wiped off. The racial thing could just be a coincidence though... we'll find out eventually, hopefully if he's caught.

Whoever he is, whatever's motivating him, I just hope they catch this fucker before he does any more damage. I know some of the people who are ready to move in as soon as they find him (the equivalent of the FBI HRT). There's a shitstorm coming his way.

Edit: if they catch him alive, I'd love to see him thrown to 2 REP to do with as they please.


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## tova (Mar 17, 2012)

RIP, Godspeed, PBS....


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## Chevy (Mar 19, 2012)

RIP


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## Rapid (Mar 19, 2012)

Unfortunately, it looks like he may have striked again. This time he shot three children and a teacher in front of a Jewish school. Apparently he opened fire on anything that moved and even chased the children inside the school. Once again, the targets were of ethnic (North African) origin. It's hard to not see the similarities, as this shooter also made his getaway on a scooter like in the two previous shootings, and one of his weapons was of the same calibre, but they are still working on making a 100% link. I think a lot of people have already made up their minds though, as the similarities and coincidences are quite obvious...


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## Poccington (Mar 20, 2012)

Looks like 3 former French soldiers who were fucked out in 2008 for having links with Neo-Nazi's are wanted for questioning.

http://www.lepoint.fr/societe/exclu...enquete-de-toulouse-19-03-2012-1442791_23.php

I hope whoever carried out these acts aren't even put into custody, I hope they're killed before a set of handcuffs can get near them.


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## RackMaster (Mar 20, 2012)

Just heard that on the radio and looks like the same gun used for the school shooting.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/03/20/france-shootings-tuesday.html


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## mike_cos (Mar 21, 2012)

AQ.... Again....(neonazi?.....) 24 Y, he said "I acted to avenge Palestinian children".... the killer must have read Patrick Robinson's Intercept...

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/153983#.T2l4JBHa5JI

http://uk.reuters.com/article/2012/03/21/uk-france-crime-idUKBRE82I07O20120321


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## Rapid (Mar 21, 2012)

Yeah, turns out this was another act motivated by the religion of peace.

Counter-terrorism units have surrounded him. A couple of officers were injured when he opened fire on them as they were approaching his flat.

He says he'll surrender 'in the afternoon'... and why would he do that? My theory is that he wants to upload the helmetcam footage he's taken of the attacks.

Last night he called the director of a major news network to explain his actions and said that the footage would be 'up on the net' soon.

I hope they decide to move in on him before he gets a chance to upload the videos.


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## JBS (Mar 21, 2012)

Wow!

All of USA media was reporting this was the work of a *DUN DUN DUN* _*Right Wing Extremist*_, as the usual first instinct.


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## RackMaster (Mar 21, 2012)

Apparently got him after a 3am raid.  I hope he wasn't injured in the raid... :-"

http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/03/21/france-shooting-suspects.html


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## Rapid (Mar 21, 2012)

RackMaster said:


> Apparently got him after a 3am raid. I hope he wasn't injured in the raid... :-"
> 
> http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/story/2012/03/21/france-shooting-suspects.html


 
Unfortunately, they didn't get him yet (see my previous post). They're still at a stand-off hoping he'll give himself up 'this afternoon', as he said. Any attempts to move in closer were met with gunfire. They could very easily overwhelm him (the guys down there are highly professional) but they want him alive to stand trial, so they're still playing this out to see if he'll surrender. I think he's bluffing though.


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## RackMaster (Mar 21, 2012)

Rapid said:


> Unfortunately, they didn't get him yet (see my previous post). They're still at a stand-off hoping he'll give himself up 'this afternoon', as he said. Any attempts to move in closer were met with gunfire. They could very easily overwhelm him (the guys down there are highly professional) but they want him alive to stand trial, so they're still playing this out to see if he'll surrender. I think he's bluffing though.


 

Ahh, I thought the news report here was an update since your last post.  I hope they get him, weather in flex cuffs or a body bag.


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## Rapid (Mar 21, 2012)

RackMaster said:


> Ahh, I thought the news report here was an update since your last post. I hope they get him, weather in flex cuffs or a body bag.


 
Yeah, there were reports that he had been arrested but they were just rumours which were spread around for a bit before the police denied it. If he comes out in a bodybag it certainly won't be a loss.


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## JBS (Mar 21, 2012)

_If he's really one of those guys that dug themselves out of a certain prison,_ I'm betting he won't be giving himself up. The only way they'll take him alive is with some kind of extraordinary tactic.  Of course they were able to take one of the guys in Mumbai alive, so who knows.


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## JBS (Mar 21, 2012)

According to this report, he's one_ those._

http://www.reuters.com/article/2012/03/21/us-france-shootings-afghanistan-idUSBRE82K0OO20120321


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## DA SWO (Mar 21, 2012)

Nice to know he was on a watch list; too bad he wasn't arrested before killing people.


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## mike_cos (Mar 21, 2012)

Uhm.... as usual... unfortunately....


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## Rapid (Mar 21, 2012)

SOWT said:


> Nice to know he was on a watch list; too bad he wasn't arrested before killing people.


 
There are far too many people on watch lists for them to be all monitored 24/7, unfortunately. At the same time you can't just arrest them all and put them in a camp or something either, if they haven't actually committed a crime yet.

That's the problem. If you've got a clean record, you can get away with anything until it's too late. These are some of the the most dangerous types of extremists we face today, because of the sheer number of them.


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## dknob (Mar 21, 2012)

you get put on a watch list for openly anti-US banter


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## Rapid (Mar 21, 2012)

The raid's going down now.

Edit: I know all too well the tactics they use and they will put themselves at risk to take him alive if at all possible (much more so than tac teams from most other countries would). I hope everyone gets out alright.


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## Rapid (Mar 21, 2012)

For now the intervention team is trying to wear the guy down and corner him in the apartment (I believe they've blown-in his door as well as parts of the walls). They still want to try and get him to surrender. He's not a real martyr and he claims he doesn't want to die, but at the same time he isn't giving himself up... so they're just trying to wear him down. Hopefully he really isn't hardcore enough to take this to the final option, and the intimidation tactics will work.


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## DA SWO (Mar 21, 2012)

Rapid said:


> For now the intervention team is trying to wear the guy down and corner him in the apartment (I believe they've blown-in his door as well as parts of the walls). They still want to try and get him to surrender. He's not a real martyr and he claims he doesn't want to die, but at the same time he isn't giving himself up... so they're just trying to wear him down. Hopefully he really isn't hardcore enough to take this to the final option, and the intimidation tactics will work.


Grenades work wonders, they should just whack him and be done with it all.


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## Rapid (Mar 21, 2012)

SOWT said:


> Grenades work wonders, they should just whack him and be done with it all.


 
Obviously, but also obviously not if you want him to stand trial, which is what they're hoping for. I'm not sure if I want to see him dead or if I want to see him face his actions in court. Wanting to see him in a bodybag is kind of my base instinct, but on the other hand I also want to see him answer for his crimes.

Edit: but mostly I just don't want him to become a martyr for his cause.


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## mike_cos (Mar 22, 2012)

L&G I introduce you Mohamed Merah







Merah Mohammed, the alleged killer of Toulouse, is a "nomadic jihad." His movements correspond to the same state of mind of a terrorist by the "gentle way" but able to shoot the children. The "nomadic jihad 'is a category in which you indicate items that have shallow roots and are capable of doing many times the path Europe / Afghanistan in search of their mission. Travel who do not often have great support. Travel often tortuous via Turkey and Iran.


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## JBS (Mar 22, 2012)

Police officers raided the suspect who responded by shooting and then jumping out of the window. Zero police officers killed, 2 wounded.

http://www.cnn.com/2012/03/22/world/europe/france-shooting/index.html


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## Rapid (Mar 22, 2012)

The intimidation tactics weren't wearing him down fast enough, so there was only one option left. The tac team started moving into the flat, being careful to avoid boobytraps, but couldn't see him at first. They then arrived near the bathroom and he came out firing long, continuous bursts with an AK. In this violent assault, he kept firing bursts as he moved towards the windows. He was shot by snipers as he jumped out of a window while still firing. He was dead when he hit the ground.

This guy was a bonafide fucking psychopath who received a lot of training in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This was a lot more intense than your usual barricaded suspect scenario. A lot of respect to those guys who did everything they could to get him alive, including putting themselves at considerable risk, just so he wouldn't be a martyr. Alas, he changed his mind and decided he really wanted to die and that was it.

He got what he wanted, but at least there won't be a lengthy, costly trial/media circus. The victims' families will have some closure too.


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## DA SWO (Mar 22, 2012)

Rapid said:


> The intimidation tactics weren't wearing him down fast enough, so there was only one option left. The tac team started moving into the flat, being careful to avoid boobytraps, but couldn't see him at first. They then arrived near the bathroom and he came out firing long, continuous bursts with an AK. In this violent assault, he kept firing bursts as he moved towards the windows. He was shot by snipers as he jumped out of a window while still firing. He was dead when he hit the ground.
> 
> This guy was a bonafide fucking psychopath who received a lot of training in Afghanistan and Pakistan. This was a lot more intense than your usual barricaded suspect scenario. A lot of respect to those guys who did everything they could to get him alive, including putting themselves at considerable risk, just so he wouldn't be a martyr. *Alas, he changed his mind and decided he really wanted to die and that was it.*
> 
> He got what he wanted, but at least there won't be a lengthy, costly trial/media circus. The victims' families will have some closure too.


 
I don't think he changed his mind, he just played them so he was in control of the situation.  The assault meant he lost control, so he came out shooting (thereby gaining a modicum of control).


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## Rapid (Mar 22, 2012)

SOWT said:


> I don't think he changed his mind, he just played them so he was in control of the situation. The assault meant he lost control, so he came out shooting (thereby gaining a modicum of control).


 
He was offered a generous window of opportunity to surrender himself and everything was done to try and take him alive. That doesn't mean he was in control of the situation; on the contrary, it was the police who was offering him that choice. There was a time frame for the different stages of the operation and his indecisions (or if you believe them to be manipulations) didn't alter it.

I don't believe he was actively trying to manipulate anyone either. The psych evaluation shows that he was very unstable. He wasn't a fully committed terrorist; intelligence suggests that he refused to take on a suicide bombing mission because he didn't want to die for the cause, so he accepted a more 'general' mission instead. I can honestly believe that during the first half of the siege, he really was battling between being a 24-year-old kid who wanted to live and the brainwashing which was telling him to go down fighting. He was willing to murder in cold blood but he was a lot less willing to die himself. Eventually he must have reasoned that spending his life in prison would be worse than a final attempt to deal some carnage.

The psychology behind this guy is mind-blowing and I'd give anything to be down there right now studying his case in detail. There'll be a lot more information coming out soon, and I think it'll show even more how fucked up he was.


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## JBS (Mar 22, 2012)

Rapid, how much of what he did to you believe was a result of training?

Although I'm with you on how conflicted he must have been, I also believe when faced with the demands of making a decision to act, one will resort to how they were trained.

I read these articles and entries with interest. From what I see, there was behavior consistent with training that led him on this path.

For instance, many in the public have the idea that this guy just walked around with a gun and happened to have shot paratroopers- likening to one of those typical workplace shootings, where the employee flips out. Not the case. The hits were planned methodically. Note:




> Imad Ibn Ziaten, a paratrooper of North African origin, arranged to meet a man in Toulouse to sell him a scooter he had advertised online, the minister said. The victim said in the ad that he was in the military.
> A message sent from the suspect's brother's IP address was used to set up an appointment to inspect the bike, an appointment at which the paratrooper was killed March 11, Gueant said.
> 
> Four days later, two other soldiers were shot dead and another injured by a black-clad man wearing a motorcycle helmet in a shopping center in the city of Montauban, about 50 kilometers (30 miles) from Toulouse.
> ...


In the case of taking out paratroopers, these were not exactly "soft" targets. In the latter case, head shots imply either execution style killings or a measure of efficacy with marksmanship. Don't want to read too far into it, but these are my observations. And I think when faced with the panic instinct and the prospect of being stormed, his training kicked in.

This young kid was one of the handful of somewhat hardened AQ, most of which have been rolled up by SOF; he had his life only because he was fortunate[sic] enough to have been locked up all this time, and then repatriated to a Western nation.


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## JBS (Mar 22, 2012)

EDITED TO ADD:

*FAKE* (Thanks, Rapid)


The moment he was taken out:



Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


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## Rapid (Mar 22, 2012)

JBS said:


> For instance, many in the public have the idea that this guy just walked around with a gun and happened to have shot paratroopers- likening to one of those typical workplace shootings, where the employee flips out. Not the case. The hits were planned methodically.


 
Yeah, I'm quite aware that he was very organised and methodological. However, he went to Afghan/Pakistan of his own accord (he didn't use the traditional 'networks' to get people there -- also a shame, because he would've probably been caught due to the way they are watched) and had his own plans -- he wasn't interested in becoming a martyr and that's why he turned down the suicide bombing mission. He was a psychopath who wanted to kill, but was not so keen on the idea of dying himself. He wanted to learn how to kill with weapons effectively, which is presumably why he tried to join the French army and the FFL (he was turned down because of his criminal record) long before he turned to extremism.

I really don't think he was hardened AQ at all, and there are even conflicting reports as to whether he was ever imprisoned in Afghanistan or not. I don't think they managed to turn him. He had an incredible ability to compartmentalise himself, so he was probably able to just focus on the combat training while he was there. There's no doubt he 'turned' towards Islamic extremism, but I think he chose to do that himself. I don't think they managed to turn him into 'one of those guys'... either way it doesn't really matter though, because they got a result out of him.

By the way, the video you posted is a fake. It depicts a completely separate incident which happened in Canada: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...om-balcony-after-being-tasered-by-police.html


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## JBS (Mar 22, 2012)

Rapid said:


> By the way, the video you posted is a fake. It depicts a completely seperate incident which happened in Canada: http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...om-balcony-after-being-tasered-by-police.html


 
Oh, wow, thanks.  I never bothered to see if that was a legit video.


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## Rapid (Mar 22, 2012)

JBS said:


> Oh, wow, thanks. I never bothered to see if that was a legit video.


 
No worries. Real footage might not be made public for a while (if at all -- depends on how they can use it for political gain during the elections).


By the way, there's a document, a sort of guide to recruiting the perfect mujahideen, which circulates on jihadist websites. Its author explains why the best new recruits are non-religious. "They're the ones who should be preferred because there are so many of them, especially amongst young people, and they are the safest". The priority for recruiting people into jihadist groups is targeting those who do not show any particular piety, as they are the most discreet.

The more religious they are, then the more visible they are too, thus they are not targeted as a priority. There is also a great distrust of Salafi circles (the super religious) because, paradoxically, many of these environments are non-violent, and some of the biggest critics of al-Qaeda and other jihadists are found there of all places.

This is why there have been many cases of fighters who were asked to take part in a suicide mission, and who responded 'yes' to the mission but 'no' to the suicide. Lots of these guys just aren't as religious as many people believe; they mostly just want to kill some Westerners out of hate and propaganda. They aren't necessarily willing to die so easily though, which is why I believe Merah was really deliberating about it.


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## RackMaster (Mar 22, 2012)

JBS said:


> EDITED TO ADD:
> 
> *FAKE* (Thanks, Rapid)
> 
> ...


 
That was in Toronto I believe and was all over the news.


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## mike_cos (Mar 24, 2012)

Bernard Squarcini, the director of the DCRI, the French secret service, has confirmed that the killer of Toulouse was monitored from 2010, but the investigation had notrevealed anything suspicious.(LOL) In November 2011 Merah had also been summoned by the DCRI to give explanations of his trips to Afghanistan and Pakistan. Yet on that occasion, "has proved an excellent cooperation, politeness and courtesy."(LOL)
This is the official version, but the US Intel leaked another story. The young Taliban in Afghanistan is stopped and not just the stamps on the passport you find that has traveled well in 'Syria, Israel, Iraq and Jordan."Not only that the Americans decide to enter Merah blacklisted passengers who can not board a flight to the United States. Impossible that the French intelligence did not know it. Far more likely that the Taliban of Toulouse has been identified as a possible "bait", or even recruited more or less consciously, as the magma infiltrated by Al Qaeda in which he was moving into. Bait is given free rein to just try to take the bait fish very biggest of the lone wolf of Toulouse.This may be why Merah can afford some extravagance fundamentalist. A day starts rotating in the neighborhood with the sword of Islam, shouting "Allah o Akbar". A woman complained to the police because it forces the child to put up videos for hours of murderous Al Qaida suicide bombers and actions. The police, strangely,does not arrest hime. Not to mention the arsenal of rifles and submachine guns that no one knows with what money makes up without anyone noticing, at least in appearance. The suspicion is that the bait was even piloted as an undercover agent from a 'mentor' of services to penetrate into the galaxy of Al Qaeda. Too bad that the French have escaped the control Taliban and perhaps has begun to play a double game, like its predecessor,al-Khalil Abu-Mulal Balawi, disguised as medical Jordanian informant, then leaped into the CIA air base in Khowst.
Intelligence sources have told that during the siege of the apartment Merah,"his handler, or the service agent who had the task of maintaining contacts and follow the" career "in the network Islamist "has tried to negotiate a surrender that did not create too many embarrassments. If so, the attempt failed and explains the incomprehensible operation of the French special forces. "The first rule in such a situation is to capture the suspect when he comes home with a surprise effect, avoiding a raid in hisapartment that could be mined and where there was an arsenal," stresses an insider.Instead the French more than a raid besieged the hideout Merah. Perhaps, someone behind them, who understands the terrorist, betting everything on the psychiatric report recorded during his stay in prison in 2007 for common crimes. In the profile, which surely was attached to his file in the services, it tells how the young person has attempted suicide in prison where he would be extremely radicalized Islam.
Merah had announced he wanted to die "with weapons in hand." After 30 hours of siege triggered an onslaught announced. Merah reacts as a soldier of the Jihad signing his death sentence.

With him, they leave many questions, as the next target he had chosen: a policeman in Toulouse and a local official of the intelligence services of the Muslim religion. If Merah was a terrorist, how did he know his coreligionists that certainly did not look around as an intelligence agent?
I'm sorry for this long post.... and I'm sorry for my english guys...
Amen


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## pardus (Mar 24, 2012)

It's not your English that worries me, just your constant conspiracy theories.


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## mike_cos (Mar 24, 2012)

Conspiracy?... LMAO!.. one day I will write a white paper ...


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## JBS (Mar 27, 2012)

mike_cos said:


> Conspiracy?... LMAO!.. one day I will write a white paper ...


For your footnotes when you get around to that white paper :-" :

http://translate.google.com/transla...un-informateur-des-services-de-renseignements


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## mike_cos (Mar 27, 2012)

JBS said:


> For your footnotes when you get around to that white paper :-" :
> 
> http://translate.google.com/transla...un-informateur-des-services-de-renseignements





JBS said:


> For your footnotes when you get around to that white paper :-" :
> 
> "Mohamed Merah was an informant of the DGSE, Il Foglio said. *Without citing sources*, the leading Italian daily contradictions in the statements of French intelligence, Israeli and Pakistani on travel by the young man."


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