# Military Athlete



## txpj007 (Oct 13, 2009)

anyone else been doing militaryathlete.com for an extended amount of time or doing it at all?  i switched to it about 3 months ago from crossfit and ive seen gains like crazy in all areas.  the first few weeks were like doing crossfit for the first time...i.e. kicked my ass.  just curious if anyone else has gotten into this and what your thoughts are.  any similar experiences?


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## surgicalcric (Oct 13, 2009)

I have been doing MA for about a year now and have seen massive gains in strength.  I stopped crossfit because I tend to lean out a bit too much for my own liking.  I havent had that issue with MA and have actually put on some muscle.

The slasher/halo's have also helped with my shoulder issue...


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## clavinr (Oct 13, 2009)

cool


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## Skywalker (Oct 13, 2009)

I've really been looking at challenging myself to the extreme lately and have become obsessed with fitness and getting myself in the best shape possible.  I have been considering CrossFit for the past week or two.  Now that I see this, should I just not do CrossFit and start doing this?

Also,  anybody know a good place to get a weighted vest pretty cheap? Yet, isn't a complete POS?

Thanks.


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## clavinr (Oct 13, 2009)

I had been making really good progress and felt really good, I took a couple of days off for recovery and to do some diving and got some nasty stomach bug and spent two days in teh bathroom...now I just can't seem to get back to it...so I'm going to start all over again.  I can't believe how fast you can undo months of hard work...whah whah whah


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## txpj007 (Oct 14, 2009)

Skywalker said:


> I've really been looking at challenging myself to the extreme lately and have become obsessed with fitness and getting myself in the best shape possible.  I have been considering CrossFit for the past week or two.  Now that I see this, should I just not do CrossFit and start doing this?
> 
> Also,  anybody know a good place to get a weighted vest pretty cheap? Yet, isn't a complete POS?
> 
> Thanks.



why have you been considering CF for two weeks but not doing?  there's nothing wrong with CF IMO.  i like it and have used it for years.  in the words of surgicalcric it kept me to lean for my liking.  also i felt the need to supplement CF with more PT as some of the WOD's could be done quickly if you were in good shape.  a lot of times they left me feeling like i hadnt really worked out.  CF is very supportive of the military and it has become more accepted by the military over time.  CF is great IMO for people in general seeking total functional fitness and to get them out of the gym and all those Muscle Mag workouts.

However, i prefer MA because of the structure and cycle of the workouts.  I also feel it better prepares me for work.  To me its easier to see the goal of the cycles and work toward that goal during each cycle respectively.  I also feel like there is a greater emphasis on strength in MA.  Also i never feel like i need to go workout out or supplement my training session afterward.  

I dont know your level of fitness or your goals.  Therefore it would be hard for  me to give you an answer one way or another.  the one downfall to MA is that is a somewhat advanced program from the start.  so, if you dont have much experience in those kind of workouts then i'd say start with CF.  CF allows you to scale the workouts a little easier.  if you've got your heart set on MA then take the operator ugly test.  you should at least score 100.  if not then you might wanna start with CF.  

in the end its really up to you.  if you are as motivated as you say then read up on the programs and educate yourself then make a decision. theres PLENTY of info on both websites.  

now stop thinking and go train


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## txpj007 (Oct 14, 2009)

now to open up another can of worms...

military athlete imo has the mindset of a Gym Jones but with the open community aspect of CrossFit:2c:


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## Pete S (Oct 14, 2009)

Thanks for the info.
I'm going to start doing this.


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## surgicalcric (Oct 14, 2009)

txpj007 said:


> ...military athlete imo has the mindset of a Gym Jone...



I dont get that at all...  I have found Mark Twight to a rather pompous ass who believes GJ is the all end all; NOT.  Personally I wouldnt beat the guy with a wet chain if he were on fire...

On the other hand Rob Shaul is a fairly humble guy who goes out of his way to offer support and assistance to anyone needing it even to the point of constantly repeating advice for those too lazy to red past questions....

YMMV


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## txpj007 (Oct 14, 2009)

surgicalcric said:


> I dont get that at all...  I have found Mark Twight to a rather pompous ass who believes GJ is the all end all; NOT.  Personally I wouldnt beat the guy with a wet chain if he were on fire...
> 
> On the other hand Rob Shaul is a fairly humble guy who goes out of his way to offer support and assistance to anyone needing it even to the point of constantly repeating advice for those too lazy to red past questions....
> 
> YMMV




guess i worded that wrong.  i was referring to the intensity and similar training styles.  I agree 100% with everything you said.  from what i can tell GJ does some intense training but try to keep this secret society elitist attitude which is off putting.  i meant similar mindset as far as training.  

Rob Shaul is exactly what you said...great coach in my book.  Rob Shaul is actually more supportive than CF imo by the fact that he does take the time to answer questions and give advice.  CF has a better infrastructure for FAQ's but i like Rob's more personal approach.  He's always quick to get back to me on emails about Range Fitness and advice.  unlike the comments on the WOD's on crossfit, Rob's Q&A sessions on the WOD's are insightful and educational.  it actually gives me an idea of why he is punishing me:cool:  

i really hope MA doesnt lose this aspect since MA has introduced their MA certification and gym "sponsorships".


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## Skywalker (Oct 14, 2009)

txpj007,

I haven't been doing it yet because I just got back from an injury from football, and have been working out with my baseball team.  I'm a junior in HS still, but I run at least 3 miles a day, plus run with whatever the baseball team does, plus lifting.  I'm working on just an overall lifting right now to get my overall strength up.  I haven't started a military specific training yet.  The reason I've not been doing CF is a lack of time with the rest of my workouts.  

I want to take my training to the next level.  I feel like I do a lot as is, but I want to do more.  I try to challenge myself as much as possible and right now, I just want to challenge my soul and take my fitness to the next level.

Actions speak louder than words and I'm just going to work my ass off until I have time to do CF or MA.

If only there were more hours in the day...


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## txpj007 (Oct 14, 2009)

skywalker...

no worries brother.  it wasnt an attack on you, just a question.  i'd be worrying about over training coming off an injury, but again idk how recent it was or the extent and im not your doctor:)  

since you're still in high school and very active in sports you might want to look into crossfitfootball.com.  talk to you're coaches at high school. express your goals to them and see what they can do for you.  you might consider showing them the CF football sight.  my buddies a high school football coach.  i showed it to him a while back and he put it into his program.  one of the things i miss about high school is my coaches pushing me, thats one thing i love about the military.  so take advantage of it bro.

if ya still have questions you know where this board is so don't be shy.


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## JJOIFVET (Oct 14, 2009)

I have been doing Military Athlete and I have seen gains in everything except my run. The dude loves doing legs, and now I have to run a lot more and do MA to keep up my running. Other than that, it is a good site.


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## JJOIFVET (Oct 14, 2009)

surgicalcric said:


> I dont get that at all...  I have found Mark Twight to a rather pompous ass who believes GJ is the all end all; NOT.  Personally I wouldnt beat the guy with a wet chain if he were on fire...
> 
> On the other hand Rob Shaul is a fairly humble guy who goes out of his way to offer support and assistance to anyone needing it even to the point of constantly repeating advice for those too lazy to red past questions....
> 
> YMMV



Man I couldn't agree with you more about Mr. Twight. I think he is pompous as hell.  I like the down to earth guys from Cross Fit and from MA. I know I get a lot out of MA and where I am at in Iraq in my what I like to call "Prison Gym" I can accomplish the work outs from MA. I see gains in all aspects except my running but I have began to run more now along with my MA work outs.


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## Skywalker (Oct 15, 2009)

txpj007 said:


> skywalker...
> 
> no worries brother.  it wasnt an attack on you, just a question.  i'd be worrying about over training coming off an injury, but again idk how recent it was or the extent and im not your doctor:)



Oh no, I didn't think you were attacking me just a simple question. :)

My third concussion, and upon viewing my MRI they found I have spinal stenosis.  Doc won't let me play football anymore but from the research I've done having spinal stenosis won't exempt me from joining the military.  So its not like it was a broken leg or something that isn't healed yet. ;)




txpj007 said:


> since you're still in high school and very active in sports you might want to look into crossfitfootball.com.  talk to you're coaches at high school. express your goals to them and see what they can do for you.  you might consider showing them the CF football sight.  my buddies a high school football coach.  i showed it to him a while back and he put it into his program.  one of the things i miss about high school is my coaches pushing me, thats one thing i love about the military.  so take advantage of it bro.



I talked to my strength coach about it and what he knew about it.  He said we basically do it after every workout.  

Our workout is like this;

We run a bit, differs each day
We stretch
We go in and lift
Then we do this thing called 'Winners,' which are basically ways he finds to torcher us after the end of our workout.  He said the 'Winners' we do everyday are basically a form of CF.
Then we stretch again.

And I usually run 2-3 miles before or after this.

So we do CF not everyday, but almost.  

Its not a full WOD but it hits the essentials when we're already tired.


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## upchuck (Apr 25, 2011)

Those of you that are doing MA how are you incorporating long runs and rucks into the 5 day WODs?  Just finishing up with his ruck based selection workout and I would like to transition back to his WODs after doing a big 24 cycle.  I am just over 200lb and my runs tend to get weak if I do not stay on top of it.

A note on the his ruck based selection program:  It felt like it was made exactly for my needs.  My knees, back, and feet are stronger and more durable then I could have wished for.  The program also pushes you not only physically, but mentally as well.  I just wish I knew about MA before my last deployment, would have made the Hindu Kush a bit more tolerable.


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## surgicalcric (Apr 25, 2011)

When not deployed I ruck once a week, 10-12 miles. I also run a couple times a week, 3-5 miles, on my own if he doesn't have runs incorporated in the workout schedule. (I despise running BTW)


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## upchuck (Apr 25, 2011)

I'm with you, fuck running.  Would you feel good going into phase two with 12 miles a week?


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## surgicalcric (Apr 25, 2011)

upchuck said:


> I'm with you, fuck running. Would you feel good going into phase two with 12 miles a week?



Nope.

And if I were somewhere that I carried a ruck more (like my trips to South America) I would include more of it in my programming.  No matter what workout routine you follow you must remember it is designed to fit the majority of the needs of the group it was designed for.  If you are expecting to ruck more in the future for either a training event (SUT/Robin Sage) or a deployment (South/Central America) you need to add more rucking to your sustainment routine.  The same applies to swimming, walking in the mountains, etc...

HTH


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## upchuck (Apr 25, 2011)

Thanks, I have a better idea on how I want to set this up.  I am just going to have to eat a crap load and watch for over-training.


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## surgicalcric (Apr 25, 2011)

upchuck said:


> Thanks, I have a better idea on how I want to set this up. I am just going to have to eat a crap load and watch for over-training.


 
I would fear under training more than over training...

Your intense training should take up up to about 2 weeks out from leaving for SUT.  Take the last two weeks off,  COMPLETELY and you will be fine.

Now, go do PT.


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## amlove21 (Apr 26, 2011)

I also hate running, Running breeds cowardice.

I agree with the Mark Twight feeling (I don't like him either), and I don't have a lot of exposure to MA. Just from checking it out briefly, I am interested to say the least. I like the look and feel of the Operator Ugly fitness test.


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## txpj007 (Apr 26, 2011)

amlove21 said:


> I also hate running, Running breeds cowardice.
> 
> I agree with the Mark Twight feeling (I don't like him either), and I don't have a lot of exposure to MA. Just from checking it out briefly, I am interested to say the least. I like the look and feel of the Operator Ugly fitness test.



Operator Ugly is a definite kick in the nuts...especially done alongside other type A's all competing.


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## upchuck (Apr 26, 2011)

Only problem I have had with MA (other thank the constant want for my mother) is finding a workout partner. Haven't had any make it through more than a week of Rob's workouts.


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## surgicalcric (Apr 26, 2011)

upchuck said:


> Only problem I have had with MA (other thank the constant want for my mother) is finding a workout partner. Haven't had any make it through more than a week of Rob's workouts.



Workout partner... Only person you should be competing against is yourself, after all thats who you will be competing against everyday of your, hopeful, SF career. I understand having a workout partner around for the heavy ME days but otherwise I find they hold me back.

With that, when you get to an ODA remember, it rarely matters what you did, only what you can do when "the test" is administered by the enemy.


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## CDG (Apr 26, 2011)

MA is a great program.  I did CrossFit for a couple years, CrossFit Football for a few months, and 5/3/1 for a few months before starting MA.  I have kept almost all of the strength I gained by doing CFFB and 5/3/1 and am much faster, quicker, and have more stamina with MA.  It's a fantastic program that I feel is going to really help me at SFAS.  I have never had a program push me as hard mentally as MA.  Crip, thanks again for the recommendation.


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## amlove21 (Apr 26, 2011)

Cric- you wanna be a pen pal, maybe a "cool cousin-type" or something? Kidding.

I know what you mean about the workout partner. I haven't worked out with an actual "person that goes with me to the gym" in about 10 years. You're 2 times as fast when you go alone. I prefer to work out by myself at this point, other than my ME days where I need a spot on a weight I cant dump.


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## upchuck (Apr 26, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> With that, when you get to an ODA remember, it rarely matters what you did, only what you can do when "the test" is administered by the enemy.



Roger, thanks for the advice.


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## ArcticOneSix (May 5, 2011)

I've been following MA for a few months now, doing the Squad PT sessions and integrating them into my platoons morning workouts as well as mixing in a few free operator sessions into my own person workouts. So far I've seen decent gains in my own personal strength increasing in weight (40-50lbs on DL, bench etc) for my measly weight of 145lbs. I used MA program to gain the weight lost after Sapper School.

I'd recommend it.


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## Mac_NZ (May 16, 2011)

Just a question for those using it. Is this program something that could literally be done by someone on their own?

I'm the only uniformed guy where I'm working at the moment and looking at a few of the weights on the operator ugly my arsehole is puckering.

Their is pretty much zero chance of getting any of the civvys out there to do it with me.


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## CDG (May 16, 2011)

Mac_NZ said:


> Just a question for those using it. Is this program something that could literally be done by someone on their own?
> 
> I'm the only uniformed guy where I'm working at the moment and looking at a few of the weights on the operator ugly my arsehole is puckering.
> 
> Their is pretty much zero chance of getting any of the civvys out there to do it with me.



I've done it on my own plenty of times. Sometimes my girlfriend does it with me, but sometimes I am just too busy and can't wait for her and have to do it by myself.

Wait..... What were we talking about? 

In all seriousness though, I have done a lot of the MA workouts solo and have never had an issue.


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## surgicalcric (May 16, 2011)

Mac_NZ said:


> Just a question for those using it. Is this program something that could literally be done by someone on their own?
> 
> I'm the only uniformed guy where I'm working at the moment and looking at a few of the weights on the operator ugly my arsehole is puckering.
> 
> Their is pretty much zero chance of getting any of the civvys out there to do it with me.



About the only exercise you need a safety for is the bench press.  Both the front sqt and dead lift can be dumped if you get into trouble but max effort on bench at 185 could cause you some issues if you dont know when to not chase that "just one more" rep.

As for the Operator Sessions, I do most of them solo, but there are others in the gym on my 1RM days involving bench.

For those looking for strength, I have recently been turned on to Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 powerlifting system (google it for more info).  It has made for a welcome break from sandbag getups and "the Exercise."

HTH,

Crip


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## Servimus (May 16, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> About the only exercise you need a safety for is the bench press. Both the front sqt and dead lift can be dumped if you get into trouble but max effort on bench at 185 could cause you some issues if you dont know when to not chase that "just one more" rep.
> 
> As for the Operator Sessions, I do most of them solo, but there are others in the gym on my 1RM days involving bench.
> 
> ...


I've heard of 5/3/1 before. Are you running this 3 times a week in conjunction with MA? That sounds insane. I don't know if I could cut it- I would think I'd need more time for recovery.


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## surgicalcric (May 17, 2011)

Servimus said:


> ...Are you running this 3 times a week in conjunction with MA? That sounds insane. I don't know if I could cut it- I would think I'd need more time for recovery.



No.  I am doing Wendler M,W,F and a capacity/endurance session or work on power lifts (Snatch, SQT Clean) on T, TH.  I take Sat and Sun off totally.

Crip


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## Servimus (May 17, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> No. I am doing Wendler M,W,F and a capacity/endurance session or work on power lifts (Snatch, SQT Clean) on T, TH. I take Sat and Sun off totally.
> 
> Crip


Roger that. Sounds good.

Heard a lot of good things about Wendler's system from some buddies. They've had good results.


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## Cochise (May 17, 2011)

I've been mixing up MA with one of Stew Smith's 12 week programs.  I've seen HUGE increases in every area and my stamina and endurance in the gym has never been this strong.  I'd def. reccomend either/both MA and/or Stew Smith's workouts to anyone trying to change up their routines and make gains.


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## Etype (May 17, 2011)

It's all just a train-up for OPT. If you can follow Optimum Performance Training as Rx'd, you know you're rockin'.


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## upchuck (May 23, 2011)

FYI, Rob Shaul's ruck based selection program served me very well during SFAS.  I recovered very quickly from the events and did not experience any joint pain.  In fact I already felt like I was back at 100% 2 days after the last team event.  Can't wait to get the barbell back in my hand on Monday.

The one thing I would add to his program would probably be grip endurance exercises such as farmers carries.


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## Etype (May 23, 2011)

I wouldn't worry too much about training specificity, like grip endurance.  If you can deadlift, string together long sets of pull ups, or do clean or snatch complexes without having to put the bar down, you have grip endurance.

You'd be getting into the curling/tricep extension realm, getting bigger arms without increasing your pullups/bench.  I'd go with farmers walks though, they are pretty good total body exercise.


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## CDG (Nov 19, 2011)

For those of you who don't check the MA site very often, there are some new programs out. He has long had an Army and USMC PFT Prep Program, and the Air Force has now been added to the mix.  They also JUST added an 8-week water based program dsigned for BUD/S, PJ, and CCT prep.  Additionally, there are programs for guys with an arm or leg injury, a program designed around maximizing strength while minimizing mass gain, and a Lower Back Fitness Program.    http://militaryathlete.com/page.php?page_ID=12&cart_category_ID=2


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## SkrewzLoose (Nov 19, 2011)

Never knew there was a thread for MA...I guess I should have searched.  In any event, I was thinking about this while on the treadmill today.  This applies for those who are using MA for conditioning and hoping to get into an SOF pipeline that requires a certain run time to be maintained and improved upon.
MA does not incorporate much running in their program.  A 45-60 min sustained run at a "moderate pace" (I'm sure most guys on here have a different opinion of moderate than I do ) every 10 days or so is about all they will incorporate.   You will need to supplement the brutal workouts with your own running.  Mine has suffered greatly.  I was dying at an 8:30-9:00 pace today.  
Just my $.02, YMMV.


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## CDG (Nov 19, 2011)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Never knew there was a thread for MA...I guess I should have searched. In any event, I was thinking about this while on the treadmill today. This applies for those who are using MA for conditioning and hoping to get into an SOF pipeline that requires a certain run time to be maintained and improved upon.
> MA does not incorporate much running in their program. A 45-60 min sustained run at a "moderate pace" (I'm sure most guys on here have a different opinion of moderate than I do ) every 10 days or so is about all they will incorporate. You will need to supplement the brutal workouts with your own running. Mine has suffered greatly. I was dying at an 8:30-9:00 pace today.
> Just my $.02, YMMV.


 
Much of the difficulty in maintaining even a 9:00 pace with the MA program is the fact that you are usually coming off a pretty good beatdown.  If you were somewhat well-rested, you would perform much better.  Additionally, in his selection specific programs, there is much more running programmed.  2 mile timed runs, 5 mile timed runs, 1 mile repeats, etc.  Much of the training that is done in the Operator Sessions will benefit your running ability, even if it is not literal running.


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## SkrewzLoose (Nov 24, 2011)

I did my first ever ruck-type activity today.  There was no way I was going to run for 45 minutes in the cold & wind.  So, I put on my layers of clothing, laced up my Bates lights, put about 35-45 lbs of shit in my sea bag (not something that should ever be carried any farther than the curb to the front door of your barracks) and set off.  I did about 30 minutes of slow jogging and 15 minutes of just walking.  Talk about conditioning for your lower legs!  It was a good workout too.  I was sweating like crazy after about 25 minutes.  I have no idea how much distance I covered.  
One thing I was thinking about during this was how it would help my running.  Here's how my running progressed and suffered from DEP-boot camp-Coronado

7 day (before shipping) PST - 10:48
First PST about 2 weeks into boot camp - 11:40
Last PST about 6 weeks into boot camp - 11:20
PST during AI in Coronado - 10:24

I did zero running between leaving boot camp and taking my PST in Coronado.  That's about 5 weeks total.  The only thing we did was "shuffle" everywhere with our rucks on. I attribute my run time to all the shuffling we did in boots w/rucks (very light, no more than 15-20lbs) Vs. being able to run the PST in sneakers.  You get used to keeping up with the class in boots, greens & rucks, then you get to run with just your shorts and sneakers.  The difference speaks for itself.
Mods/Admin, if any of this borders on G2, you can delete it.


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## Rando134 (Dec 3, 2011)

If you are giving your all in his workouts, the work capacity you get used to should make a PST, PFT, and so on a VERY easy day. The core work alone from sandbag get-ups should make you a stronger runner.


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## surgicalcric (Dec 4, 2011)

rao22 said:


> ...The core work alone from sandbag get-ups should make you a stronger runner.


 
Not even close...   The two has little to do with the other.  I suppose you believe squatting makes a person's bench stronger or helps pull-ups...  :ehh:


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## Hillclimb (Dec 4, 2011)

CDG said:


> Much of the difficulty in maintaining even a 9:00 pace with the MA program is the fact that you are usually coming off a pretty good beatdown. If you were somewhat well-rested, you would perform much better. Additionally, in his selection specific programs, there is much more running programmed. 2 mile timed runs, 5 mile timed runs, 1 mile repeats, etc. Much of the training that is done in the Operator Sessions will benefit your running ability, even if it is not literal running.


 
On just week 1 I think.. there was:

Running: 1 mile warmup, then 8 rounds: 60 seconds sprints/60 second rests

And then the next day 3 Rounds: 1 mile @ Threshhold/2 minutes rest

then whatever the next days workout is, and that was plenty beatdown for me. My nutrition and rest hadn't been on point due to finals week, and some major lethargy/overtraining set in. Slept 14 hours today lol. Its still good shit though, thanks again for emailing it to me CDG.


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## CDG (Dec 4, 2011)

Jonnyb said:


> On just week 1 I think.. there was:
> 
> Running 1 mile warmup: 60 seconds sprints/60 second rests
> 
> ...


 
I find myself having to stagger my training schedule at times as well.  Working full-time, especially nights, and going to school full-time as well means there are times where I might only train three days in a week.


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## CDG (Dec 4, 2011)

rao22 said:


> If you are giving your all in his workouts, the work capacity you get used to should make a PST, PFT, and so on a VERY easy day. The core work alone from sandbag get-ups should make you a stronger runner.


 
In addition to what Surgicalcric stated, the fact that PFTs might be comparatively "easy" do not mean that the Operator Sessions will prep you to max out a PFT.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 4, 2011)

rao22 said:


> If you are giving your all in his workouts, the work capacity you get used to should make a PST, PFT, and so on a VERY easy day. The core work alone from sandbag get-ups should make you a stronger runner.


 
I don't buy that at all.  Getting away from a consistent running schedule has caused my running to suffer greatly despite the workouts I put myself through in the gym.  I also don't see what standing up and lying down with a 60# sand bag has to do with lowering my running times.  The two simply don't equate.  
And I'm not in the Selection based program, so I can't comment on what CDG and Jonnyb are going through.


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## CDG (Dec 4, 2011)

SkrewzLoose said:


> I don't buy that at all. Getting away from a consistent running schedule has caused my running to suffer greatly despite the workouts I put myself through in the gym. I also don't see what standing up and lying down with a 60# sand bag has to do with lowering my running times. The two simply don't equate.
> And I'm not in the Selection based program, so I can't comment on what CDG and Jonnyb are going through.


 I'm still doing the Operator Sessions, not the Selection Prep Program.   It sounds like running might be something you have to stay on top of.  I have to do the same with my bench.  I will lose 20# off my bench in a matter of a couple weeks if I don't do it regularly.  The running for me is pretty consistent though.  Even without constant running I can go out and run a 35:00-37:00 5 mile piece.


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## Rando134 (Dec 4, 2011)

I understand what all of you are saying, but are you telling me a stronger core does NOT help your run time? I would strongly disagree with all of you. Let me clarify, I am not saying that sandbag getups alone will improve your run time. When complimented with running, and high capacity work, it definately does. Not only physically, but most definately mentally.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 4, 2011)

rao22 said:


> I understand what all of you are saying, but are you telling me a stronger core does NOT help your run time? I would strongly disagree with all of you. Let me clarify, *I am not saying that sandbag getups alone will improve your run time.* When complimented with running, and high capacity work, it definately does. Not only physically, but most definately mentally.


 
That's not what you originally said, but I see what you're getting at and I agree.  
As far as the strong core, I'd take the 30lb weight loss I went through while in DEP before I'd take a stronger core (without weight loss) if we're talking about strictly running. But that's just me.  The saying YMMV is used for a reason.  Running is something I have to stay on top of constantly or I lose my conditioning, as CDG alluded to.  
Overall, I think a strong core is a necessity in any selection process, so I'm not discounting it as being important.
And, it's definitely...  That's my grammar nazi side coming out!  

Just my $.02, MHO and YMMV.


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## Th3 Maelstr0m (Dec 4, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> For those looking for strength, I have recently been turned on to Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 powerlifting system (google it for more info). It has made for a welcome break from sandbag getups and "the Exercise."


 
I've been doing 5/3/1 for about a year & as far as pre-made programs go, Wendler takes the cake IMO. I stated with the 4 days/week split & saw great gains. If strength is what you're looking for, 5/3/1 is where it's at. 
I do the 2 days/week split now as I'm focusing on endurance for the time being & "de-loading."
For those of you that have tightness and whatnot, I'd recommend throwing in some foam rolling. It really blows when you first start (especially for the IT band) but the difference it makes is amazing.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 4, 2011)

Th3 Maelstr0m said:


> For those of you that have tightness and whatnot, I'd recommend throwing in some foam rolling. It really blows when you first start (especially for the IT band) but the difference it makes is amazing.


 
x1000


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## Hillclimb (Dec 4, 2011)

Th3 Maelstr0m said:


> I've been doing 5/3/1 for about a year & as far as pre-made programs go, Wendler takes the cake IMO. I stated with the 4 days/week split & saw great gains. If strength is what you're looking for, 5/3/1 is where it's at.
> I do the 2 days/week split now as I'm focusing on endurance for the time being & "de-loading."
> For those of you that have tightness and whatnot, I'd recommend throwing in some foam rolling. It really blows when you first start (especially for the IT band) but the difference it makes is amazing.


 
have you seen the 5/3/1 full body split? 
http://www.t-nation.com/strength-training-topics/1316

If you liked 5/3/1, you may like that. I enjoyed it. Felt light on my feet when i came off it as well.


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## Rando134 (Dec 5, 2011)

> And, it's definitely... That's my grammar nazi side coming out!


 
Good catch! I re-read my post and can see how is was mistaken. I would never suggest that sandbag get-ups alone would make a run time better. I have the ruck based selection from MA as well, and am fighting myself to do that or the 10 week prep guide for A&S in April. I am currently doing the 10 week prep I have been given by the recruiters, and I am doing well with it, but feel like I can do a little more! I was given a modified version of it, with four different cards, and some great pool work on Friday's.


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## Th3 Maelstr0m (Dec 5, 2011)

Jonnyb said:


> have you seen the 5/3/1 full body split?
> http://www.t-nation.com/strength-training-topics/1316
> 
> If you liked 5/3/1, you may like that. I enjoyed it. Felt light on my feet when i came off it as well.


Thanks for the link!  I know a couple natural bodybuilders that have a split similar to that & swear by it. I personally like keeping my deadlifts & squats on separate days, since those are always the 2 main lifts I focus on (though I have started adding weighted pullups & dips into the mix).


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## dknob (Dec 5, 2011)

I have the so-called "SFOD-D" training program if you guys want it. Shit aint free from the site so take advantage of my good will.
Its the "horseman program"

Kinda confusing but has good workouts.

The problem with MA is that its hard to do if you dont have all the equipment as most crossfit gyms dont take lightly to you showing up and doing your own thing.


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## CDG (Dec 5, 2011)

dknob said:


> I have the so-called "SFOD-D" training program if you guys want it. Shit aint free from the site so take advantage of my good will.
> Its the "horseman program"
> 
> Kinda confusing but has good workouts.
> ...


 Are there two of these programs then?  I found what I thought was the HP and it is free....
http://www.scribd.com/doc/55818603/Horsemen-Training-Program-i-1
I am very lucky in that there is a cheap ($35 a month) strength training facility close to me that has everything I could ever conceivably use. KBs, bumper plates, lifting platforms, rings, a rope, tires, farmers carry implements, an indoor 40 yd lane for prowlers/sprints, logs, axles, etc.  If any of you are ever near Norfolk, check out Brute Strength Gym.


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## txpj007 (Dec 5, 2011)

dknob said:


> The problem with MA is that its hard to do if you dont have all the equipment as most crossfit gyms dont take lightly to you showing up and doing your own thing.


The only limfac i ever ran into was not having bumper weights and getting chewed out for smashing the plastic floor of the tent our field gym was in.  I made my own sandbag and have become fond of her.  Most of the exercises can be substituted or improvised with a little forthought.  Ive done thousands of KB workouts with DB's  Not ideal but it will get the job done.  Ive done GHD situps by placing a flatbench behind the seat of a lat pull down machine.  Ive used tubular nylon to in place of rings.  We didnt have squat racks in the gym i smashed the floor in so I'd have to guys hold the bar and become a human squat rack.  If youre a paying member of the sight Rob is usually very good at responding to questions in my experience. 

Yeah some of that stuff was frustrating and a pain in the ass.  I just wanted to throw out some problems and solutions Ive come up with in the past.


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## CDG (Dec 5, 2011)

MA also has the Squad PT sessions that are specifically designed for little to no equipment.


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## lancero (Dec 6, 2011)

dknob said:


> I have the so-called "SFOD-D" training program if you guys want it. Shit aint free from the site so take advantage of my good will.
> Its the "horseman program"
> 
> Kinda confusing but has good workouts.
> ...



I would like to take advantage of your good will.  Will you send it to me?


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## TH15 (Dec 6, 2011)

dknob said:


> I have the so-called "SFOD-D" training program if you guys want it. Shit aint free from the site so take advantage of my good will.
> Its the "horseman program"


If its not too much, I'd like to have a copy.


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## dknob (Dec 6, 2011)

pm me your email then mofo


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## MilkTruckCoPilot (Dec 6, 2011)

CDG said:


> Are there two of these programs then? I found what I thought was the HP and it is free....
> http://www.scribd.com/doc/55818603/Horsemen-Training-Program-i-1


 
X2


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## F.CASTLE (Dec 6, 2011)

I posted about the horsemen program a few weeks ago... I sent it out to a few Vetted members on here, still waiting on some feedback if anyone wants to jump on the thread...


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## lancero (Dec 6, 2011)

dknob said:


> pm me your email then mofo


PM sent.


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## Hillclimb (Dec 6, 2011)

dknob said:


> pm me your email then mofo


 
PM inbound as well, if you dont mind!


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## Tropicana98 (Dec 7, 2011)

dknob said:


> pm me your email then mofo


 
Same here if you dont mind.


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## CDG (Dec 11, 2011)

CDG said:


> For those of you who don't check the MA site very often, there are some new programs out. He has long had an Army and USMC PFT Prep Program, and the Air Force has now been added to the mix. They also JUST added an 8-week water based program dsigned for BUD/S, PJ, and CCT prep. Additionally, there are programs for guys with an arm or leg injury, a program designed around maximizing strength while minimizing mass gain, and a Lower Back Fitness Program. http://militaryathlete.com/page.php?page_ID=12&cart_category_ID=2


 
In addition to the programs I listed here, Rob has added two more programs to the mix. 

There is an 8-week Kettlebell Program:
_8 Week Kettlebell program is designed for athletes who already train exclusively with kettlebells, or for those who are interested in doing so. _
_The first 4 weeks of this program are focused on strength. The final 4 weeks are focused on work capacity. _
_Strong male athletes will need pairs of kettlebells ranging from 12-32kg to complete the program. _
_Strong female athletes will need pairs of kettlebells ranging from 8-28kg to complete the program. _
_Proficiency in the single and 2-handed kettlebell snatch is also encourage for completing this program._

There is also a 6-week Ranger School Prep Program:
6-Week Training Program specifically designed to prepare athletes for Ranger School. 

_This program has the following end--of-cycle training goals: _

_*1) Achieve Elevated Scores on the Ranger PFT. *These include 100x Push ups in 2 minutes, 100x sit ups in 2 minutes, 20x chin ups and completed a 5 mile run in 37:30 (7:30 miles). _

_*2) Ruck several times a week, including 10 miles with 50# *Expect a bunch of rucking in Ranger School. The best way to prepare to ruck is to ruck. _

_*3) 135 Second Farmers Carry with 2x 24kg Kettlebells or 2x 55# Dumbbells*Farmers carries develop grip strength. A strong grip will help you immensely during team events at Ranger School._

_*4) 90 reps of Sand bag get ups @ 60# in 10 min. *The sandbag getup is our favorite core exercise. A strong midsection is key to durability. The goal here is to build a _
_strong core to protect your back and vulnerable limbs from the tests and trials ahead. It’s preventative medicine. _

_*5) 5 Rounds of 300m Shuttle every 2:00 minutes*The 300m Shuttle is a classic work capacity conditioning tool. _

_*This program includes these less distinct physical goals: *- Build the athlete’s mode-speciﬁc aerobic base (running and rucking) _
_-Prepare the athlete for selection unknowns (we use intense work capacity circuits to accomplish this._
_- Build durability - through rucking with a heavy pack, sand bag get ups, and strength training._
_- Prepare the athlete mentally and physically for the incredible volume of work you can expect at Ranger School._

_*Schedule*You’ll train 5 days a week during this program. Aim to take 2 days a week off for total rest. Here is an outline of the schedule: _

_*Monday (2-a-Day)* AM - Ranger PFT_
_PM - Strength Session_

_*Tuesday* - Bodyweight Cals Ladder and Fartlek Run_

_*Wednesday (2-a-Day)* AM - Work Capacity and Core_
_PM - Ruck_

_*Thursday* - Work Capacity_

_*Friday* - Long Session, Work Capacity + Ruck_


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## Hillclimb (Dec 12, 2011)

I like how the .pdf gives you a list of comprehensive goals to achieve by the end of the program. You have an idea of what you're getting into and working towards from day one. I wanna try to swimming/water based selection one.


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## tmroun01 (Dec 13, 2011)

Has anyone tried the Ranger School Prep?


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## CDG (Dec 13, 2011)

tmroun01 said:


> Has anyone tried the Ranger School Prep?


 
Doubtful.... The program was just released on his site this week, so unless there is someone on here that was involved in the creation of it, or got an advance copy somehow, there hasn't been enough time for anyone to do it.


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## tmroun01 (Dec 13, 2011)

CDG said:


> Doubtful.... The program was just released on his site this week, so unless there is someone on here that was involved in the creation of it, or got an advance copy somehow, there hasn't been enough time for anyone to do it.


Gotcha, well I guess I'll give it a go.


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## Th3 Maelstr0m (Dec 14, 2011)

Also, for anyone interested in other programs, you might want to check out Joel Jamieson's "Ultimate MMA Conditioning." He trains a lot of big name UFC dudes like Rich Franklin & Pulver. The book & site look a little gimmicky but the book is really in depth. He does an really good job at outlining how to assess where in a program you should start, and what type of stuff to do.
His whole philosophy revolves around your body energy systems (aerobic, alactic, anaerobic), and he does an exceptional job of explaining each system & how it works/ is improves. A lot of what he writes aligns strongly with the jazz I learned in Exercise Phys, Theories & Applications of Strength & Conditioning, & Kinesiology. Once I finish up my current block of training I'll be giving it a go.

Also, I'm sure he's already been mentioned somewhere on this site, Ross Enamait's stuff is balls to the wall, & he is a stand up guy as well. Responds to every email & is as humble as you can get. Some of his warrior workouts will break you off. hard. I attached one of his montages, which studies has shown will put hair on your chest. Check out his site at rosstraining.com. I also have some of his older pdf's that have a crap load of info, workouts, etc. If you are interested, let me know & i'll email them to you.


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## lancero (Dec 14, 2011)

Ross Enamait is also a great source of DIY equipment.


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## Tropicana98 (Dec 28, 2011)

It's been a few weeks so has anyone incorporated the "Horsemen" program? I've played around with programming it but I have just been hitting my crossfit gym and a PT focused program since I'm home on break.


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## lancero (Jan 1, 2012)

Is there enough "strength" programmed into the Horseman Program?


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## Poccington (Jan 1, 2012)

Jonnyb said:


> have you seen the 5/3/1 full body split?
> http://www.t-nation.com/strength-training-topics/1316
> 
> If you liked 5/3/1, you may like that. I enjoyed it. Felt light on my feet when i came off it as well.


 
That looks pretty decent. I'm planning on starting the new year with a mix of Wendler 5/3/1 and 2 days of endurance stuff.

Did you prefer working with the full body split or the regular 5/3/1 system?


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## Hillclimb (Jan 1, 2012)

Poccington said:


> That looks pretty decent. I'm planning on starting the new year with a mix of Wendler 5/3/1 and 2 days of endurance stuff.
> 
> Did you prefer working with the full body split or the regular 5/3/1 system?



Full body split.. which the only diff really is squatting your deload numbers 3x a week for 6-10 reps. It wasn't anything too demanding, I felt like my leg endurance/strength benefit from doing it that way. I was evening running 12-20 miles a week. I don't adjust my 1MR's after I complete 531 though, I just try to PR the max rep sets, that's probably why I'm able to include running.


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## Etype (Jan 1, 2012)

With 5/3/1, you're taking a big set back because of the rigid set/rep scheme.  You get a bit of a repetition method/max effort stress with the max rep sets, but the weight is too heavy for it to be repetition method and too light to be max effort.

For a run + strength program, the Westside Barbell template and  running is awesome, just lighten the accessory work to save some energy for running.  If you get your dynamic effort workouts dialed in and use bands and box squats, you can't even come close to the strength gains from the Westside method.


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## surgicalcric (Jan 23, 2012)

http://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator 

For those who have been asking me about 5/3/1 programming, here is a simple to use formula.

Crip 



http://blackironbeast.com/5/3/1/calculator


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## Bloodline (Feb 12, 2012)

This is from another thread but my question is about Military Athlete so I'm posting here.

http://www.shadowspear.com/vb/threads/looking-for-a-special-forces-mentor.5135/page-2

Etype said....



> The key point is, you have to do all these things and BE ABLE TO DO THEM AGAIN TOMORROW, AND THE NEXT DAY- for however long selection is.


 
My recent training history is that I used to do Crossfit with 2 other guys and I switched over to Military Athlete about 8 months ago. I experienced some of the loss of running ability that's already been discussed so I took Rob's advice to cut back to 3 Operator WODs per week and add more run/ruck days. It's been good and I'd recommend the split for general fitness not for any selection prep. The BDTDs and the SOF commands have thoroughly covered selection prep.

My question is about the ability to recover from intense work which Military Athlete claims to train. One of the previously mentioned Crossfit friends recently did a WOD with me. It was a rough session and the next day his legs were hammered but I felt fine and I went on a ruck. Has anyone else felt an improvement in their ability to train hard and come again back the next day (or several days) from Military Athlete?

Nothing against Crossfit, it's a fine program with lots of great athletes.


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## SkrewzLoose (Feb 12, 2012)

beard0352 said:


> Has anyone else felt an improvement in their ability to train hard and come again back the next day (or several days) from Military Athlete?


 
Yes.  I've been doing MA for about 4 months now.  I'm 3 weeks into their Big 24 which is a 4 week long focus on strength.  I'm starting to hate the feel of the BB and chalk on my hands.  It's fucking hard for me.  And there are guys on their site lifting twice what I'm lifting.  Before that it was 2 weeks of grueling stamina work. Most of those days I was in the gym for 90-120 minutes doing 20 rounds of XYZ then 20 rounds of ABC.  I wanted to cry, puke, quit, die, etc...  I added up the exercises one day and it would come out to about 800 reps per 20 rounds of XYZ.  So anywhere from 1,000 to nearly twice that many reps in a workout depending on how quickly you moved.  I have never spent that amount of time in the gym doing constant work.  But, I managed to continue showing up and pressing on the next day...
I hope this answers your question(s).


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## Bloodline (Feb 12, 2012)

Yeah, I'm familiar with joys of training with Rob. It's fun to push yourself like that, right?

How have you measured the improvement? My Op Ugly score has increased as well as my major lifts but those are all single events. I have no indicator of my ability to work hard for days on end improving besides the next day difference between my CF buddy and I. 

Have fun with Big 24!  I'm in the stamina cycle right behind you and looking forward to my beloved squat cleans!


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## CDG (Feb 12, 2012)

beard0352 said:


> Yeah, I'm familiar with joys of training with Rob. It's fun to push yourself like that, right?
> 
> How have you measured the improvement? My Op Ugly score has increased as well as my major lifts but those are all single events. I have no indicator of my ability to work hard for days on end improving besides the next day difference between my CF buddy and I.
> 
> Have fun with Big 24! I'm in the stamina cycle right behind you and looking forward to my beloved squat cleans!


 
The ability to recover from intense, sustained effort, and be ready to go again the next day is the biggest benefit I have seen from MA.  I've been doing it for just over a year now, and was doing CF for a couple years before I started MA.  I will say that I have not really seen a decrease in my running or rucking ability.  My Operator Ugly score has improved significantly every time I have taken it, but that should be no surprise that the test the program uses would be a test you would see improvement on.  What has impressed me the most is that my short duration work capacity seems to be about the same as when I was doing CF and my strength has gone up.  I have set PRs on several lifts during the MA program, despite the added volume.  The one thing I do not like about the program is that it can get tedious at times. Doing 100 Curtis Ps for time every week for 4 weeks gets a little old.  In that same vein, I wish his programming branched out a little more as far as the movements it utilizes.  In the grand scheme of trying to prep for a SOF Selection though, I think that may end up being of benefit as it trains mental fitness.


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## OS3 (Feb 13, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Most of those days I was in the gym for 90-120 minutes doing 20 rounds of XYZ then 20 rounds of ABC. I wanted to cry, puke, quit, die, etc... I added up the exercises one day and it would come out to about 800 reps per 20 rounds of XYZ. So anywhere from 1,000 to nearly twice that many reps in a workout depending on how quickly you moved. I have never spent that amount of time in the gym doing constant work. But, I managed to continue showing up and pressing on the next day...


This! And when I blew my left VMO (dislocated knee cap) on an O-course last September, Rob sent me a 6-week suck it up program. Now I'm 2 1/2 months into working back to the strength and scaling the training big time. I feel beat the hell up after this morning's training. Back at it tomorrow!


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## Etype (Feb 13, 2012)

beard0352 said:


> My question is about the ability to recover from intense work which Military Athlete claims to train. One of the previously mentioned Crossfit friends recently did a WOD with me. It was a rough session and the next day his legs were hammered but I felt fine and I went on a ruck. Has anyone else felt an improvement in their ability to train hard and come again back the next day (or several days) from Military Athlete?


 
Here's the deal with following CF or MA, they are one size fits all- and that size is not yours, no matter who you are.  They are good programs, but have their flaws if you try to use them as a catch all.  They are not designed for you, they do not address your weaknesses, and they are not designed around equipment you have access to.

The biggest problem I have with MA is set/rep schemes.  I've bashed set rep schemes ad nauseum in other threads- because I think they suck.  I've done a workout that went like this- Squat 185 x100- 100 reps squat at my body weight without putting the bar down.  It works for me, but will it work for you or someone else?  Maybe not.  I use the westside method for strength,  it's the best, hands down- look at the records.  However, it has problems, too.  You don't get enough reps of the actually exercises in so it depends almost solely on assistance exercises to address imbalances.

The problems I have with CF is games specific training.  Kipping pullups really aren't necessary for non competitors.  They are a great workout tool, and I use them- but just do a search on the CF discussion board for SLAP tear or torn labrum and read away.  Another horrible exercise is the sumo deadlift high pull- read here http://beastmodaldomains.com/2011/10/19/come-at-me-coach-volume-ii-why-do-we-do-this/#more-690 so I don't have to explain. Crossfit talks all the time about scaling for intensity- and that is the key.  If it takes you 7 minutes to do fran, you need to use jumping pull ups and/or lighter thrusters so you can work faster and get the same response.  If it only takes you 1:20 to do grace at 135, you need to do it at 225.  The badass games athletes are that way because they DON'T follow the mainsite wod- not even close.

My fitness really broke through after I learned how CF was programmed, along with already having a decent handle on the westside method.  I now do my own programming which address my weaknesses and maintains my strengths.  I'm not the fittest dude in town, but I'm better off than most.  My numbers for transparency sake-
5'10", 180 lbs 405 squat, 275 bench, 515 deadlift, 190 OH press, 275 front squat, 255 clean and jerk 13:10-13:20 2 miler, 35:38 5 mile


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## CDG (Feb 13, 2012)

To add to what I said previously, I agree with Etype on the MA set/rep schemes.  Not just that, but the structure of some the workouts does not work for me, so I change it.  For example, if it's a strength day I do not try and blaze through as fast as possible.  I take time between sets so I can really push the weight on whatever lift I am doing.  If that means I am in the gym for 90 minutes, so be it.  I enjoy strength work and when I do it I do it for the purpose of lifting as heavy as possible, not turning it into a strength/work capacity hybrid session.  Also, in his Big 24 program, for example, he has you go from 8 sets of 3 power clean and push press/jerk into 8 sets of 3 squat cleans.  He says to start at the end load of your PC+PP and go up from there.  This does not work for me because it leaves me nowhere to go.  I hit 225# for a triple on the PC+PP and 245# for a triple on the squat clean tonight.  If I had started my squat clean sets at 225# I am not only starting much heavier than I feel comfortable with, but I have nowhere to go after set 2 or 3.  So I  start at 135# and make my jumps from there based on how I am feeling.


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## Etype (Feb 13, 2012)

In addition, purposefully doing a full squat clean is counter productive to a good clean.  You catch the bar as high as you can given your strength on the second pull.  If an olympic athlete could power clean or muscle snatch a world record, he would- he wouldn't drop down into a full front squat or deep overhead squat because that's what his program said to do.  If the weight is heavy and you have to go deep, do it, but don't bs because some guy said to.


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## CDG (Feb 13, 2012)

Etype said:


> In addition, purposefully doing a full squat clean is counter productive to a good clean. You catch the bar as high as you can given your strength on the second pull. If an olympic athlete could power clean or muscle snatch a world record, he would- he wouldn't drop down into a full front squat or deep overhead squat because that's what his program said to do. If the weight is heavy and you have to go deep, do it, but don't bs because some guy said to.


 
Agreed. If I am on my way to finding a 1RM or 3RM squat clean though, then I am purposefully working towards a weight heavy enough to force me to drop into a squat to be able to make the catch.  I would rather warm up that technique starting from a light weight as opposed to only doing it when I have to. There is merit to both lifts.  I have known Oly coaches who did not let their athletes do power cleans, and yet others use them extensively to train the 1st and 2nd pulls.  Just goes to show how fluid training is and that, as you said, there is no one size fits all program.  Some places are better starting points than others, but once you have some experience you should start to play around with various things and see what works for you and what you enjoy.


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## lancero (Feb 15, 2012)

Etype,
Since you like Crossfit and Westside, what do you think of Rudy Nielsen's "Limited Conjugate Method?" Supposedly, he mixes CF and Westside stuff.

http://outlawcoach.wordpress.com/about/


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## F.CASTLE (Feb 15, 2012)

Etype , are you scheduling your own running? Thats always been the difficult part for me. Trying to find a happy medium between strength and speed/endurance. Our numbers are fairly similar, Although your a few inches shorter than me and lighter. Ive found a lot of success previously with running a lot of medium distance intervals, however my lower body strength (Squat particularly) fell significantly as I was trying to bring my speed up which sacrificed some of my strength training.

Also, whats the consensus on sweat technique with you guys? Are you low bar or high bar squatting? I'll be honest and say that I mix both up but mostly because Im not 100% comfortable with the Low Bar Squat.


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## Etype (Feb 15, 2012)

Lancero- Outlaw looks awesome.  I've seen it referenced in other places, the coach has a real scientific approach which is what I think a lot of CF is lacking.  When someone like him gets the nuts and bolts of it down, they're gonna blow CF wide open like Louie did with powerlifting.

castle-  I program all of my everything.  I use the G/W/M programming format from CF.  When M (monostructural endurance) is up by itself I usually run 5 miles.  When there is one M plus something else, I run 400 or 800m intervals in the workout, when there are 2 Ms, I run plus row or jump rope.  So, I run a bit in my programming, usually once per 3 day period.

When I squat, it's always low bar and wide stance, and usually on a 17" box which is about 2.5" below parallel for me and puts my hip crease below my knee so no one can say I'm cheating.  The purpose of the squat is to build strength in hip extension, a low bar squat in a wide stance moves the most weight, so is therefore the most effective.  I also front squat and overhead squat, so adding one more squat angle in there just doesn't appeal to me.


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## F.CASTLE (Feb 15, 2012)

Etype -  I feel that despite having my CF Cert, Im still not knowledgeable enough to follow programming format on my own. I Follow CFFB SWOD and DWOD, and then usually run intervals on Tue and Friday, then one Long run (usually 5 miles) My strength numbers have seen a steady increase and my speed over distance has gone up as well as my capacity over intervals. (Keeping my splits within 2-5 sec of eacother. However I feel like Im never going to run back to back to back 6 - Sub 6 minute miles, which is the obvious goal. Perhaps Im just being impatient with my gains at this point. Do you feel that 6 min miles is a fair standard? Or too fast/slow? Ive always been FAST, I played college football, ran track etc... But Speed endurance has always been difficult for me. I can run 13 min 2 miles, but carrying that speed over to 5+ is where I am lacking.

My problem with low bar squatting is that Im uncomfortable with the more extreme back angle at heavier loads. I definitely feel safer and sounder technique when utilizing the High Bar, however I do feel a lack of "drive". Im definitely more powerful with a low bar, I also might add that I don't utilize a different stance for each respective style.  I just make sure I go nice and deep (dynamax ball depth, crease well below the knee) and drive hard.


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## Etype (Feb 15, 2012)

Widening your stance will make your back more vertical.  As long as you keep your toes generally straight, a wide stance has the same hamstring involvement.  Box squats are really the key.  Pausing on the box takes the stretch reflex out of the lift and makes it concentric only, like a deadlift.

I'm not a good runner, and not really interested in it.  I score with 3-4 points of the max on the APFT run, can easily run a 5 miler, and can pretty comfortably knock out a 2.5 hour 12 miler.  What I really want to do at this point is get my OHP over 200, and my bench and clean and jerk over 300 without gaining weight.  I do focus a lot on my running form, mainly for injury prevention- but it has helped me get faster.


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## SkrewzLoose (Feb 15, 2012)

Etype said:


> Widening your stance will make your back more vertical. As long as you keep your toes generally straight, a wide stance has the same hamstring involvement.


 
x2
My brother got me to widen my stance while doing squats and it helped tremendously.  I'm 6'4" and I always blamed the severe back angle at the bottom of my squat on my height.  Not the case.  I widened my stance, pointed my toes out SLIGHTLY and I'm able to stay more vertical for longer than before.


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## CDG (Feb 15, 2012)

F.CASTLE said:


> Also, whats the consensus on sweat technique with you guys? Are you low bar or high bar squatting? I'll be honest and say that I mix both up but mostly because Im not 100% comfortable with the Low Bar Squat.


 
I use Low Bar.  I used to use the High Bar, but as I progressed in weight, it became very painful to have the bar sitting across my traps.  I also found that I can keep my torso more vertical with the Low Bar.  I think of pushing my shoulder blades back into the bar, particularly when firing out of the bottom.  It helps to drive my chest up first, as opposed to my hips lifting and leaving me with a very heavy Good Morning.


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## CDG (Feb 15, 2012)

Etype said:


> What I really want to do at this point is get my OHP over 200, and my bench and clean and jerk over 300 without gaining weight. I do focus a lot on my running form, mainly for injury prevention- but it has helped me get faster.


Etype - Bill Starr has some great stuff out there for building Press strength. He says his number one exercise for improving the press is weighted dips (on a bar, not rings). He also advocates the use of "Press Starts". A Press Start is where you but more than your 1RM on the bar and press it as high as possible for 3-5 reps. Here's an article he wrote called "The Quest For A Stronger Overhead Press".

http://startingstrength.com/articles/stronger_press_starr.pdf


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## F.CASTLE (Feb 15, 2012)

CDG said:


> I use Low Bar. I used to use the High Bar, but as I progressed in weight, it became very painful to have the bar sitting across my traps..


 
CDG - Maybe you  should stop being a weak faggot and suck it up.....

High Bar is comfortable for me, but thats because Ive always squatted that way and Ive always had enough Trap  padding.... That being said... Im definitely more powerful in the low bar, Im going to give a wider stance a shot and see how it feels. 

Etype - As far as running goes, I hate it myself, however #1 - Im a competitive bastard, #2 - For whatever reason our respective MOS'/Military feel the need to base a lot  of our testing on LSD running (whether it be a selection or PFT based test), #3 - If the time comes that I have to run awhile and fast I want to do it at maximal capacity. Im trying to smoke some bitches.


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## CDG (Feb 15, 2012)

F.CASTLE said:


> CDG - Maybe you should stop being a weak faggot and suck it up.....
> 
> High Bar is comfortable for me, but thats because Ive always squatted that way and Ive always had enough Trap padding.... That being said... Im definitely more powerful in the low bar, Im going to give a wider stance a shot and see how it feels.


 
Lol.  I'm secure in my squat numbers.  The problem is that since my traps are more "peaked" than broad, a disproportionately small amount of my body is trying to support a heavy barbell.  We can't all look like Larry The Cable Guy, F.CASTLE.  Some of us have to look good.


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## F.CASTLE (Feb 15, 2012)

CDG said:


> Pointless babble from troll


 
GFY Im a house!

I checked out Beastmodal btw, and it has some great stuff... Check out the blog he wrote, he's got some great ideas... When I was driving today I was thinking about things that MA lacks.... Consistent squatting and lower body centered movements were two big ones i.e.: Jump rope, box jumps


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## CDG (Feb 15, 2012)

F.CASTLE said:


> GFY Im a house!
> 
> I checked out Beastmodal btw, and it has some great stuff... Check out the blog he wrote, he's got some great ideas... When I was driving today I was thinking about things that MA lacks.... Consistent squatting and lower body centered movements were two big ones i.e.: Jump rope, box jumps


 
I agree.  I will say though, that the lower squatting volume has not seemed to hurt my strength levels.  My squat numbers are solid when compared to where I was after doing 5/3/1 for a few cycles.  I think I may have lost some ability to rep heavier weight, but my 1Rm or 3RM numbers have stayed pretty consistent.  There was an intital decline as I adjusted to the added volume, but now I am back at, or in some cases above, my old PRs.  I do wish he did some more box jumps and added some double-unders in sometimes, but a program has gotta give somewhere.  I still think it's the best program for a SOF wannabe, and if you are experienced enough you can make changes within the framework of what he writes to keep things from getting stale.


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## F.CASTLE (Feb 15, 2012)

Etype had it right when he said it will work for some and not others... But ya, for SOF wannabes who have no clue what to do MA with some added running


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## CDG (Feb 15, 2012)

The problem I face if I do my own programming is that I inadvertently end up doing too much shit I like (strength) and not enough shit I should (running and gym-based stamina).   I would love to be able to train like a Strongman competitor and still be fine at Selection.  I know that's not how it works though.


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## F.CASTLE (Feb 15, 2012)

Fuck running anything over 400m


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## Etype (Feb 16, 2012)

CDG said:


> Etype - Bill Starr has some great stuff out there for building Press strength. He says his number one exercise for improving the press is weighted dips (on a bar, not rings).


 
Dips on bars are also great for shoulder health since most of the lift has your shoulder in flexion, while the overwhelming majority of other lifts only move the shoulder through a range of extension- which means slouching and SLAP tears. Ring dips are a bit sketchy since it's hard to keep your shoulders retracted while doing them- I treat them the same as kipping pull ups, I only do them during a benchmark WOD or directly competing against somebody, otherwise I just do them strict.



F.CASTLE said:


> Etype had it right when he said it will work for some and not others... But ya, for SOF wannabes who have no clue what to do MA with some added running


Seriously, for selection, all you need to do is perform at an above average level for 3 weeks or however long it is now.  Most dudes don't do anything crazy.  I would say about 75% of SF guys just do Army PT at a high standard.  There are a metric-fuck-ton of dudes in the Army who score 300s on their PT tests and finish their 12 milers well within the time standard and do nothing but push ups, sit ups, pull ups, run, and ruck.


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## CDG (Feb 16, 2012)

For me, I not only enjoy barbell/DB/KB training far more than anything else, but I think the durability of training with weight is needed for me.  I used to be about 20# lighter than I am now, and I'm hardly a big guy now at 6'2" 185#.  I had a VERY difficult time with boats and logs at BUD/S, and started to suffer overuse injuries much earlier than I should have.  I believe this can be attributed to me not having ever trained with weights in the time leading up to then, except for a stint on one deployment doing bodybuilder style training.  Not only that, but I think doing heavy squats tests your mental fitness far more than a bodyweight PT session.


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## Hillclimb (Feb 17, 2012)

F.CASTLE said:


> CDG - Maybe you should stop being a weak faggot and suck it up.....
> 
> High Bar is comfortable for me, but thats because Ive always squatted that way and Ive always had enough Trap padding.... That being said... Im definitely more powerful in the low bar, Im going to give a wider stance a shot and see how it feels.
> 
> Etype - As far as running goes, I hate it myself, however #1 - Im a competitive bastard, #2 - For whatever reason our respective MOS'/Military feel the need to base a lot of our testing on LSD running (whether it be a selection or PFT based test), #3 - If the time comes that I have to run awhile and fast I want to do it at maximal capacity. Im trying to smoke some bitches.


 
Fuck running! A necessary evil.  I'll usually take the month prior to a PFT/event to train for that run and then I'm done until the next year. Its not that hard to get back into the swing of things, its just more annoying than anything. I can usually maintain my cardio by other means. Currently looking into cycling, but even a used Trek/Cannondale bike runs pretty steep for my wallet.

Just make sure you give me a months notice prior to the zombie apocalypse.


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## Boon (Feb 17, 2012)

Jonnyb said:


> Fuck running! A necessary evil. I'll usually take the month prior to a PFT/event to train for that run and then I'm done until the next year. Its not that hard to get back into the swing of things, its just more annoying than anything. I can usually maintain my cardio by other means. Currently looking into cycling, but even a used Trek/Cannondale bike runs pretty steep for my wallet.
> 
> Just make sure you give me a months notice prior to the zombie apocalypse.


 
Yeah, definitely a necessary evil, and a "perishable" ability at that.

The Zombie Apocalypse will warn no one!


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## Etype (Feb 17, 2012)

But when the zombies come, there will be plenty of average Americans around- that means obese, and slow.  I saw a lady at Wal-Mart today on a scooter that could feed your average zombie hoard for weeks.


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## Etype (Feb 19, 2012)

... and 28 Days later is a bad model to use.  Those British folks don't own guns... DORKS!!!


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## CDG (Apr 9, 2012)

I've put up other posts in this thread with links to some of the specialty programs MA has to offer.  They recently came out with two more.  There is a 7-week Work Capacity Training Plan designed around building a base level of WC.  There is strength and stamina work included, but the main focus is work capacity efforts.  There is also an 8-week Military Athlete For CrossFitters plan.  This plan is designed around introducing an experienced CFer to the MA style of training.  Click on the link and scroll to the bottom of the page for the two newest specialty plans.

http://militaryathlete.com/page.php?page_ID=12&cart_category_ID=2


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## lancero (Apr 12, 2012)

The MA for CFers looks interesting.


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## CDG (Apr 14, 2012)

There is also now a 6-week Patrol Officer Training Plan designed around the following objectives:

Intense, sport-specific, 6-week training plan designed specifically for patrol officers in law enforcement or military police.

Training plan as four primary objectives:

*1) Increase upper body mass and strength.*We understand the deterrent value a big, strong chest and arms can be to bad guys and women who might want to mess with patrol officers. And if they do decide to try something, a strong upper body will help the officer take control. This training plan will to build upper body mass, and strength, including grip strength.

*2) Increase Core Strength.*This plan hammers your mid-section, especially your lower back. A strong mid-section will help you immensely in any scuffle or dangerous situation. It will also make you more durable and injury resistant.

*3) Sprinting strength, speed and stamina.*This plan builds lower and total body strength, then uses multiple sprint intervals to transfer that strength to sprinting speed and power. It’s unlikely a patrol officer will be running miles at a moderate pace during his or her duty day, but it’s very likely the officer could be called up to sprint, and sprint multiple times.

*4) Build short, intense, multi-modal work capacity.*Short intense events such as scuffles, sprint + tackle, etc. are a reality of a patrol officer’s fitness demands. This plan uses short, intense, multi-modal events to train work capacity and cardio/muscle power.


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## Poccington (May 4, 2012)

Anyone have any experience with, or hear anything about MA's Hypertrophy Program?


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## CDG (May 4, 2012)

Poccington said:


> Anyone have any experience with, or hear anything about MA's Hypertrophy Program?


 
I did part of it. I switched off of doing it because it looked like my enlistment was going to go through and so I wanted to do more conditioning. For the 2 weeks I did it, it was a tough program. The volume really adds up, especially if you're really pushing for max weight for the prescribed reps. I was sore as fuck all the time. There are better hypertrophy programs out there, but I think it's a very good program for its intended audience. Military guys generally can't afford to focus on mass gain to the exclusion of everything else, and the MA Hypertrophy program strikes a good balance between mass gain and also maintaining a good level of conditioning.


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## F.CASTLE (May 4, 2012)

Poccington said:


> Anyone have any experience with, or hear anything about MA's Hypertrophy Program?


 
I used it after my last deployment and saw some weight gains. There was some "bodybuilding" type exercises included in the program which I kinda disliked. However it is meant to put mass on skinny dudes, not turn you into some sort of athletic superbeast. I agree with CDG, Rob Shaul does try to strike a balance in it, however its not the end all be all program.

Honestly though, any program is going to help you put weight on if your nutrition is dialed in to gain mass. Depending on your experience with lifting, there are ALOT of programs out there to fuck around with. the MSU experiment put weight on me, BIG 24 MA program added weight, Crossfit Football has added weight etc.... Its all about hormones and calories brother, IMHO.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (May 6, 2012)

I've always been a slim guy though I keep in decent shape, though with my metabolism it's really hard to put any mass on, and finding the time/sheer will power to cram down a shit ton of calories (the good kind) has always been a challenge to me. Still, seen plenty of "slim guys" in the Corps that could kick a lot of big guy's ass's in PT.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (May 6, 2012)

was looking at MA and am curious. gonna try the two week free courses listed on the web site, though perhaps someone to help me answer this. if I did decide to try it for a bit, how do you know when you up the weight on your exercises? or do you keep it just constant?


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## CDG (May 6, 2012)

JohnnyBoyUSMC said:


> was looking at MA and am curious. gonna try the two week free courses listed on the web site, though perhaps someone to help me answer this. if I did decide to try it for a bit, how do you know when you up the weight on your exercises? or do you keep it just constant?


 
What do you mean exactly? Rob will prescribe a set weight, or percentage of a rep max, for everything. The exceptions are strength workouts where you are going as heavy as possible for the prescribed number of reps.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (May 6, 2012)

CDG said:


> What do you mean exactly? Rob will prescribe a set weight, or percentage of a rep max, for everything. The exceptions are strength workouts where you are going as heavy as possible for the prescribed number of reps.


 
that's basically what I was looking for, thanks!


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## Etype (May 6, 2012)

Johnny, you ever try the gallon of milk a day diet?  You eat the same as usually do, except you drink- a gallon of milk a day extra.  It's really not that hard to do if you space it out.  I've did it about 3 years ago for a couple weeks, and recently did it again just a couple weeks ago for two weeks in duration.  The first time I tried it was with whole milk, this time I did it with 1%.  It was pretty far spaced to realistically compare the two, but I'd the 1% was easier to digest (I'm not a milk drinker otherwise).  

During the two weeks I was drinking a gallon a day, I was a snotty, mucus spitting mess.  I also had stomach aches almost daily, although they weren't anything I didn't mind.  I gained 8 pounds over two weeks, then over the next couple weeks I dropped 4.  So a month later, I had gained about 4 pounds of muscle and my health had returned to normal about 2 days after I stopped drinking the milk.  

I really don't have much of a problem with a 1:1 fat/muscle gain, if I was interested in getting much bigger I'd just go up in 8-10 pound spurts, then cut back to 10% BF monthly.  It's a MUCH faster way of gaining muscle than maintaining the same BF % and slowly gaining lean mass (look at bodybuilders when they are far out from a meet).


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (May 6, 2012)

interesting.....though a gallon of milk a day does sound harsh lol! probably all to do with the amounts of steroids milk has in it these days. I'd prefer some more solid muscle mass to be honest, not giant bulk up like a body builder. Strength, speed and endurance are more important to me than size. The beta alanine I take is helpful with the endurance, though I'm always looking to improve in all areas!


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## Etype (May 7, 2012)

Yeah, lean mass is good.  But the thing is, if you are in or around 180 pounds, gaining 5 pounds of fat along with 5 pounds of muscle is going to change your BF% by about 2%.  Shedding 5 lbs of body fat is no big deal.

All variables being equal other than strength, a stronger person has better endurance.  

Adults don't digest milk well because they no longer produce chymosin.  Lactose is also a pretty strong allergen and most folks have a reaction to at one level or another, whether they notice it or not.  I've also read from several sources that casein resembles gluten on the molecular level, and causes similar problems.


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## SkrewzLoose (May 7, 2012)

JohnnyBoyUSMC , PB & banana sandwiches...


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (May 7, 2012)

I'm 5'8 and 153 lbs at the moment, about the only body fat on my body is at the gut, so a good weight routine/fat burn cardio is what I do usually but I'll give the MA a try and see how well I like it. Skrewz, would almond butter work?


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## SkrewzLoose (May 7, 2012)

I suppose.  I'm not sure how much (good) fat almond butter has in it when compared to PB.  I always thought they were a great Pre-WO snack.  I was eating 3 PB&B sandwiches a day en-route to becoming the 215lb (6'2") fat ass I was when I DEP'd in.  So, like everything else, moderation.    I also just discovered Greek Yogurt.  Twice the protein of regular yogurt and still ZERO fat!  Tastes kinda funny alone, but mixed with oatmeal and protein and a little honey/cinnamon, delicious!
Also, I use MA and I love to hate it.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (May 7, 2012)

wait....so you recommend PB&J's yet say all of those made you a fat ass....I'm a bit confused my friend.


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## SkrewzLoose (May 7, 2012)

PB&B(anana), my friend.  And I said, in moderation.  3 a day plus all the other shit I was eating at the time, yes, fat assery occurred.  Here's what I was eating at the time.

Reveille: Protein shake
Breakfast: 6 hard boiled eggs & yogurt
Mid morning: PB&B sandwich
Lunch: Cold Cut sandwich & PB&B sandwich & protein shake
Pre-WO: PB&B sandwich & protein shake
Post WO: Gainer protein shake (laundry detergent scoop size!)
Dinner: 1/3 box of spaghetti, 1/2 can sauce, 1/2 lb ground beef
Taps: Casein shake

I still think it's a great Pre-WO meal.


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## F.CASTLE (May 7, 2012)

Bread and Pasta fucked you, Skrewz. Other than that you're diet isn't too bad. Not sure how you're built though.


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## JohnnyBoyUSMC (May 7, 2012)

F.CASTLE said:


> Bread and Pasta fucked you, Skrewz. Other than that you're diet isn't too bad. Not sure how you're built though.


 
Agreed there. My gf is a personal trainer and gave me the suggestions to shape my diet up after (when I got out of the Corps) I did a bit too much "don't give a fuck I'm a free man" with my eating/drinking, went from 155 to 163, almost all in my gut. After about two months of no bread/no pasta/healthy eating and a change up in my workout dropped about 10 lbs fat from my gut.


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## SkrewzLoose (May 8, 2012)

Yeah, I was trying to put on weight.  All I did was lift weight, no cardio.  It took me a week of dancing and flailing around for 5 minutes every morning to get my work pants on to realize that the weight I had put on had all gone to the wrong place...my mid section vice upper body.  That's about the time I DEP'd in.  I was at 215.  I shipped 10 months later at 185.
I've never had any problem getting my legs to grow.  Chest/arms/shoulders, never happens.


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## F.CASTLE (May 8, 2012)

Genetics, Rep amounts, Hormone Release and Movements (those two go hand as well as intensity) are key. Aside from the already discussed nutrition, you can only control 2 of those 4, and partially control hormonal release (kind of). Once you find out what your body responds to, stick with it. As long as you're hitting heavy compound movements (Clean, Snatch, Squat, Press Deadlift etc) you should be getting somewhat of a hormonal response, add that to Reps and a solid Diet and you're bird chest should be a barrel chest soon enough.


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## CDG (May 13, 2012)

MA has added two more programs to the mix.  There is a 6-week FBI Special Agent PFT Prep Program and a 5-week GORUCK Challenge Prep Program.

FBI SA PFT: http://militaryathlete.com/page.php?page_ID=12&cart_category_ID=2&&cart_ID=66

GORUCK: http://militaryathlete.com/page.php?page_ID=12&cart_category_ID=2&&cart_ID=67


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## SkrewzLoose (May 13, 2012)

One thing that continually amazes my tiny brain is the amount of time these guys take on the AFAP sets.  They're almost always at the very end of a workout when you're completely wiped.  It always takes me 1.5-2 x as long as Rob and his lab rats.  I don't know if it's more mental or physical on my part, but it's still bewildering.  
For example, the workout I did Friday was almost all upper body.  Last set was AFAP:
5 Rounds
5 x Power clean @ 135#
5 x box jump
5 x pull up

The cleans were surprisingly easy.  The pull ups are what killed me.  I could barely hang on the bar after the 2nd round.  Took me just over 10 mins to complete the entire 5 rounds.  Rob did it 4:24, his "lab rat" Dave did it in 6:xx.  I'm sure many of you would be given less trouble than I with something like this, but it still makes me go


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## CDG (May 13, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> One thing that continually amazes my tiny brain is the amount of time these guys take on the AFAP sets. They're almost always at the very end of a workout when you're completely wiped. It always takes me 1.5-2 x as long as Rob and his lab rats. I don't know if it's more mental or physical on my part, but it's still bewildering.
> For example, the workout I did Friday was almost all upper body. Last set was AFAP:
> 5 Rounds
> 5 x Power clean @ 135#
> ...


 
 It took me a couple months to get used to the volume of MA enough to even be able to complete 5 sessions in a row within the expected time per session.  It was another couple months before I felt like I was attacking the workouts as opposed to just trying to survive them.  The mental aspect was harder to adapt to than the physical.  It takes a certain mindset to get through the MA sessions.  You have to force yourself to take it one segment at a time and to focus on what you're doing right now and not what you already did or what you have left to do.


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## ThunderHorse (May 14, 2012)

Anyone do MA here at Benning?


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## kagespartan (May 27, 2012)

I here nothing but good things from other guys in my unit about his stuff. Personally I'm not on this level of fitness yet and I know that after doing some of the squad pt sessions, but I like it because well...it sucks! However I was wondering, I've read his site throughly and he is about strength which makes sense...but what about running? I don't see it much in the program from all I've read and talked about with others. I'm not a great runner so it takes serious work on my part just to maintain what I got. Will MA help or hurt my run??


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## SkrewzLoose (May 28, 2012)

kagespartan said:


> I here nothing but good things from other guys in my unit about his stuff. Personally I'm not on this level of fitness yet and I know that after doing some of the squad pt sessions, but I like it because well...it sucks! However I was wondering, I've read his site throughly and he is about strength which makes sense...but what about running? I don't see it much in the program from all I've read and talked about with others. I'm not a great runner so it takes serious work on my part just to maintain what I got. Will MA help or hurt my run??


 
I've started doing 3 MA workouts a week and 2 days running.  The workouts will technically "help" you with running due to increased lung capacity, work capacity and stamina.  I'm a shitty runner so I have to incorporate actual running into my routine in order to continue progressing.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jun 21, 2012)

Just found a big area that's lacking in the MA workouts.  PULL UPS.
When I got to Coronado (a year ago) I could do 13-14 strict, dead hang, pull ups during my PST.  In high school, I was the skinny kid who would struggle to bend his arms more than 90* on the pull up bar...
I did the calisthenics part of today's SOFWOD before my run and my pull ups have suffered greatly.  Went like this:

3 rds
16x narrow push ups
16x sit ups
8x wide grip pull ups

I got the first 8 with a bit of struggle, then had to split the last 2 sets into 4/4.  I was extremely disappointed.  
Just my $.02 regarding MA, which I still love to hate!


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## F.CASTLE (Jun 21, 2012)

Ya, Ive noticed Coach Shaul has the tendency to over program the Anterior muscles. Too much pressing and front squatting. Etype made a nice little post about the problems quad and shoulder dominance can have on an athlete. Also, if you look at Coach Shaul you'll see his slumped shoulders and his thumbs are turned inward towards each other which put him at risk for shoulder issues and causes increased kyphosis.


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## kagespartan (Jul 4, 2012)

F. Castle-

Yeah I started with what Skrewz said about running a month or two back. Now I started kind of supplementing it. I do Two regular workouts a week with a squad PT session one time a week with three days of running a PU/SU/PU improvment based off of a CPT. Kind book I had in basic. He's got a good program in my opinion and I do feel it is structured better than most plans for military but my I started doing some extra work for my back.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 4, 2012)

Check out SOFWOD as well.


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## kagespartan (Jul 6, 2012)

I've done some of their stuff before...I just prefer military athlete.


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 28, 2012)

My roommate, a friend of mine and I attempted to do this MA workout today.  We didn't do the warm up and only got through about three+ sets.  We also didn't make it to the run...granted we went a little too strong last night...but this was rough and the volume is crazy.
15-14-13-12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
Dead Lift @ 185#
2- handed Kettlebell Clean & Press @ 20kg
GHD Situp
Back Squat @ 135#
Scotty Bobs @ 25# (each pushup counts as
!
one rep)

(2) Run 3 miles, moderate pace.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 28, 2012)

Holy christ almighty.  Kinda surprised to see back squats in there as coach Shaul loves front squats so much.  
Was that considered a stamina or work capacity session?  I can see that easily going into the 90 minute range...well, for me at least.  :-/


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 28, 2012)

Honestly I'm new to Military Athlete I've just been following what you guys have said here.  This is the Session 1 for week three of the Ruck Based Selection program the only difference from week two is the increasing the run to three miles.  I mean stamina...sure the lift itself is a cardio burner, looking at MA right now I'd say it's a stamina work out.  But yeah holy shit.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 28, 2012)

OK, I didn't know you were doing the Ruck Based program.  
When doing the Operator sessions, they're broken down into Strength, Stamina or Work Capacity.


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 28, 2012)

It was just something my roommate picked out, we haven't done it from the beginning.  I was given the operator sessions by a friend of mine so I'll have to start on that when I have time.  I haven't even looked to compare it.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 28, 2012)

What exactly are you hoping to accomplish?  (not intending to be smart-ass-ish)


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## CDG (Jul 28, 2012)

ThunderHorse said:


> My roommate, a friend of mine and I attempted to do this MA workout today. We didn't do the warm up and only got through about three+ sets. We also didn't make it to the run...granted we went a little too strong last night...but this was rough and the volume is crazy.
> 15-14-13-12-11-10-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
> Dead Lift @ 185#
> 2- handed Kettlebell Clean & Press @ 20kg
> ...


 
Yeah, this is a stamina session.  The 15-1 thing is designed to be completed in roughly 60:00.  It sounds like you may have come out of the gate too fast.  You have to start workouts like this at a pace that almost seems too slow at first.  This rep scheme results in 120 reps of each exercise.  That is a shitload of reps and has to be paced accordingly.


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 28, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> What exactly are you hoping to accomplish? (not intending to be smart-ass-ish)


Just looking to get into better shape, haven't really had time beyond weekends to workout.  I'm able to get down and do pushups...tend to do that after I leave the restroom at home.  The problem with where I am is I've been getting off work at 1800 most days, have to get home, eat, study, do work for the next day.  We have PRT most days...the idea that PRT doesn't help you is a fallacy...it maintains and builds you up just a little bit.  Haven't had the time to make the gains I want, however, I did set PRs on pushups and the two mile run on our record PT test.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 28, 2012)

If you don't have a lot of time, you may want to look into giving CF a shot.  You're usually done in 25 mins or less.  I'm not going down the MA Vs. CF Vs. SOFWOD road, you can decide what's best for you.  They will all get you "into better shape".  What you do/how you supplement after that, based on your own personal goals, is up to you. However, based on what you posted above, the high intensity/short time period WOD that CF lives and dies by might be a good option for you.


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 28, 2012)

Oh I've become a believer in CF.  However the Training Tempo we're on right now...basically in the field for the next three weeks and then done with the course.


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## Sendero (Aug 21, 2012)

After 3-4 months of Starting Strength minus a long break for a shoulder strain/pulled armpit muscle.  I'm at or in between intermediate to advanced in the bench, dead lift, squat and military press in the 180-185 pound category.  I also continued to run sprints 2x a week (400/800m) and a 3-4 mile lsd run 1x a week.  I added accessory exercises post lifts, like back ups, planks, pull ups, occasional Tabata 6x pushups and farmer's carries.    I recognize the above is not strict SS and I colored outside the lines, but it worked for me in my goal of getting stronger, without a huge drop off in BW exercise and running.

Here are a few of my experiences with it.

1. I went from 183lbs to 193lbs in a hurry (low fat Choc0late Milk post workout).  I've now normalized and I am around 183 lbs.
2. My cardio and run times suffered from the increase in raw strength.  
3. Bench press was very helpful at maintaining push ups.  
4. Back Up's and Planks made sit ups much easier. I didn't do a single sit up for months but had no drop off.  That's amazing considering sit ups, with respect to a 2 minute PT test, is my hardest exercise to see a gain.

After a break to heal up, I'm headed back to the gym for a few weeks to let my body adjust to lifting again.  I wanted to solicit opinions about making adjustments.  Is it time to switch to more of a MA style programming?  Excited to be headed back to the gym and make some adjustments moving forward.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 21, 2012)

What's your goal/reasoning for using SS and/or MA?  Selection, overall fitness, lifting goals?


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## Lefty375 (Aug 21, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> What's your goal/reasoning for using SS and/or MA? Selection, overall fitness, lifting goals?


 
+1. 

On another note, I just started MA coming from Crossfit. I started during the 2 week Stamina cycle. Wow, what an intro. It sucked the first week pretty badly, but this week I'm not doing too bad. I already love MA, and can't wait to see how the selection prep programs work. These stamina workouts are defiantly helping my mental toughness too, more so then a traditional CF workout.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 21, 2012)

Stamina sessions can suck my balls.  I hated that shit with all my heart.  
As a few of us have said before, MA has its shortcomings just like any program.  If you're doing this for a Selection pipeline it would behoove you to check out SOFWODS as well.  They incorporate calisthenics (as well as running and swimming) which MA seems to neglect.


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## Lefty375 (Aug 21, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Stamina sessions can suck my balls. I hated that shit with all my heart.
> As a few of us have said before, MA has its shortcomings just like any program. If you're doing this for a Selection pipeline it would behoove you to check out SOFWODS as well. They incorporate calisthenics (as well as running and swimming) which MA seems to neglect.


 
Ah, yea I scaled these stamina workouts just by if it calls for a 25 pound weight vest, I just don't use it. I think I could still preform somewhat well with it, but since this is the first month of me switching to this type of programming, I figured it would be good to just slowly adjust. 

I looked into SOFWODS too. I will make sure to include stuff from there as everything gets closer. I don't live too far from their HQ. I might go check it out at some point.


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## Sendero (Aug 21, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> What's your goal/reasoning for using SS and/or MA? Selection, overall fitness, lifting goals?


 
Great question. It's something, I'm in the process of reevaluating. My initial purpose in training was to be physically fit enough, to enlist in the Guard and pass SFAS. While I would definitely say that is still my desire, there have been some set backs, not fitness related.

My goal as of now would be able to be as strong as I can, while still having a high level of stamina and endurance.

As a 185 pound guy, it is much easier for me to have a 275+ pound bench than a sub 40 minute 5 miler. While I have and can do both , the 5 miler takes a crap ton more work for me. On a 2 mile run my personal best is 13:25. I would consider that more difficult than "getting strong" for me.

Putting my goals in simpler terms:
1. Maintain strength
2. 280+ on the Army PT test
3. Sub 40 minute mile
4. 20 pull ups
Wild Card: run a 12:59 - 2 mile.

My reasoning for the question about MA, is it incorporates lifting with other elements requiring stamina and work capacity. Something I'm not doing now within SS.

Hope I made sense with the above.

*edited for spacing


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 21, 2012)

Sendero said:


> ~snip
> 
> Putting my goals in simpler terms:
> 1. Maintain strength
> ...


 
We may need to have a little talk...  

I'm doing 5/3/1 and incorporating SOFWODS into my workouts a few days a week.  The volume of 5/3/1 is such that I'm not completely beat down and I'm able to do 2 or 3 days of conditioning work & running on top of my strength work through 5/3/1.  
Programs like SS & 5/3/1 will get you stronger at the sacrifice of stamina and endurance if done alone.
MA/CF/SOFWODS will get you in better shape, all around, with overall strength being compromised some.  Again, with SOFWODS incorporating more calisthenics than the other 2 because it's more Selection based.  
At the end of the day, if you want your cake & be able to eat it too, you're going to have to incorporate a little bit of both types of programming without burning yourself out.  It's not impossible by any means.  
I hope this helps.
CDG & Etype , you guys can chime in anytime as you're both more knowledgeable on this kind of thing than I.


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## CDG (Aug 21, 2012)

Sendero said:


> Great question. It's something, I'm in the process of reevaluating. My initial purpose in training was to be physically fit enough, to enlist in the Guard and pass SFAS. While I would definitely say that is still my desire, there have been some set backs, not fitness related.
> 
> My goal as of now would be able to be as strong as I can, while still having a high level of stamina and endurance.
> 
> ...


 
Having done both MA and SOFWODs, my personal opinion is that SOFWODs will better address all of those needs.


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## AWP (Aug 21, 2012)

Reading this thread, aside from a few laughs, has made me realize that I am a pussy who needs to put in a lot of work at the gym.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 21, 2012)

Odd...I realize the same thing every time I'm in here too.  :-/


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## Sendero (Aug 21, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> We may need to have a little talk...


 
Whoops...I meant to say sub 35 minute mile, not 40. 



CDG said:


> Having done both MA and SOFWODs, my personal opinion is that SOFWODs will better address all of those needs.


 
Thanks gents.  I'm not as familiar with SOFWODs, but I will definitely look into it. 



Freefalling said:


> Reading this thread, aside from a few laughs, has made me realize that I am a pussy who needs to put in a lot of work at the gym.


 
X3.  I used to think I was fit, until I started reading some of the threads in the fitness section.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 21, 2012)

Sendero said:


> Whoops...I meant to say sub 35 minute mile, not 40.


 
So you want to run 1 mile in less than 35 minutes?  That's what you're going for here?


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## Sendero (Aug 21, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> So you want to run 1 mile in less than 35 minutes? That's what you're going for here?


 
Apologies...my attempt at humor fell flat. My goal should have said sub 40 minute 5 mile, not mile. When you stated "We need to talk" with humor, I thought you realized my typo. My fastest 5 mile times on hilly terrain is 7:40-7:50 per mile.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 21, 2012)

Ah, in that case, I hate you.


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## Etype (Aug 22, 2012)

Sendero, I think you're at the same type of crossroads I came to when I started doing my own programming a couple months ago.  Everyone has their own unique weaknesses that need to be trained and everyone has their own limitations (usually in the form of injuries or chronic pain for us who have been doing it for awhile).  

Shoulder surgeries got me away from doing kipping pullups and oly lifts.  I still do a lot of overhead work, but the dynamic moves leave me in more pain than I am already in on a daily basis.
I suck at running, so I need to do it often yet smartly.
I love the results I get from Westside style workouts.
I train based around those 3 bullets, for the most part.  For every other person there could be a totally different criteria.  Read a lot about what makes training work, then take what makes sense to you and your situation and apply it- you don't necessarily need someone else do it for you.


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## Lefty375 (Aug 26, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Stamina sessions can suck my balls. I hated that shit with all my heart.
> As a few of us have said before, MA has its shortcomings just like any program. If you're doing this for a Selection pipeline it would behoove you to check out SOFWODS as well. They incorporate calisthenics (as well as running and swimming) which MA seems to neglect.


 

Okay I have started adding in SOFWODS starting today....my calisthenics are lacking. Flutterkicks kicked my ass tonight.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 26, 2012)

Good stuff.  Any time you switch from one program to another or start implementing something new, you'll quickly find the area(s) one program neglects.  

Hot tip: If you're doing flutter kicks/leg lifts to prepare for a Selection pipeline, do them with your arms out at a 45* angle to your body, not under your butt.  That's all the G2 you'll get from me...


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## Lefty375 (Aug 26, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Good stuff. Any time you switch from one program to another or start implementing something new, you'll quickly find the area(s) one program neglects.
> 
> Hot tip: If you're doing flutter kicks/leg lifts to prepare for a Selection pipeline, do them with your arms out at a 45* angle to your body, not under your butt. That's all the G2 you'll get from me...


 
Ah.....i was doing them under the butt. Thanks for the info. My hip flexors are sucking from them last night....should be able to murder the sit up event though after a while....not that I don't already do well on it.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 11, 2013)

So a friend of mine gave me the Strength and Honor program and I'm looking to start doing it after I've gotten settled here at Knox, was wondering for those who have done it, I know it's set up for five days, would you recommend just doing four days?


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## StewCrew23 (Jan 19, 2014)

lancero said:


> I would like to take advantage of your good will.  Will you send it to me?


I would like a copy


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## AWP (Jan 19, 2014)

StewCrew23 said:


> I would like a copy


 
Stew,
Per the site rules you need to post an Introduction before posting again. You also quoted the wrong guy if you're looking for a copy.


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## mj5 (Jun 30, 2014)

Would the BTDTs recommend this as a means to prepare for a selection course (with priority given to the PT guide from the respective course)? And is it worth paying the monthly subscription fee for the daily operator sessions, or would one be better off using SOFWODS or the horsemen program for free?


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## CDG (Jun 30, 2014)

mj5 said:


> Would the BTDTs recommend this as a means to prepare for a selection course (with priority given to the PT guide from the respective course)? And is it worth paying the monthly subscription fee for the daily operator sessions, or would one be better off using SOFWODS or the horsemen program for free?



MA has multiple Selection specific plans for damn near any school out there.  They have gotten great reviews from a lot of guys that have used them.  You're looking at about $80 for a single plan.  Do you need one?  No, guys have been passing Selections for a long time without specific plans.  Does it make sense to use any available resource to prepare not only for the events themselves, but for recovering in between?  Your call dude.  I think it makes sense.


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## Sendero (Jul 2, 2014)

@CDG - Has there been anything you've changed up, regarding fitness, now that you've arrived at an ASOS? More running?  Less heavy lifting?

I'm asking out of curiosity and the fact this thread had been pretty active in the past.  You and @Etype were dropping a lot of good fitness knowledge.  I think it helped a lot of people including myself.


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## CDG (Jul 3, 2014)

Sendero said:


> @CDG - Has there been anything you've changed up, regarding fitness, now that you've arrived at an ASOS? More running?  Less heavy lifting?
> 
> I'm asking out of curiosity and the fact this thread had been pretty active in the past.  You and @Etype were dropping a lot of good fitness knowledge.  I think it helped a lot of people including myself.



There hasn't been much that has changed.  I lost some mass and strength going through the TACP pipeline due to long bodyweight PT sessions, and lots of running and rucking. So right after I graduated I did a cycle focused more on strength.  It came back pretty quick and I transitioned into work-capacity based training for awhile.  I had a buddy of mine programming for me for awhile, but I stopped that due to the cost and am back to following Military Athlete.   Some guys get to an ASOS and start doing bodybuilding style workouts and worrying about physique development.  I strongly disagree with that as our job isn't to look good in PT gear.


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## Bryan55 (Jul 22, 2014)

I know y'all have covered this in this thread and many others but I guess I'll try and get a little more information.  I have a little over a year until sfas if all goes well.  I've been doing tf black for the last few months, not as consistently as I should have (spent a month at ntc  recently).  

I know that no matter what I do, tf black, ma, sofwods, if I do it regularly i will get in decent enough shape to compete at sfas.  I also know that throughout the thread I noticed people going with ma but recently switching to sofwods etc.  

I guess I'm just looking for opinions on the best program that I can stick with that will prepare me the most for sfas.  I'd be sold on ma if I didn't read about the certain aspects of fitness it doesn't cover enough.  I know a lot of you program your own workouts with sofwods and 5/3/1 for example, but I'm not comfortable enough doing that, and rather not learn from the mistakes I will make with the limited amount of time I have until sfas. 

So, all in all, ma, tf black, or sofwods?  Also, running is probably the one thing I need to improve the most.


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## Bryan55 (Jul 22, 2014)

Couldn't figure out how to edit my post.  

I guess my main issue is fear of committing.  I want to ensure I commit to the best program I can.


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## Bryan55 (Jul 22, 2014)

I keep forgetting to add stuff, last post, I promise.    I figured if post some stats to help narrow down options.  I currently weight 215 at 6'.  Passed ranger school about a year and a half ago, run was the hardest pt event for me during rap.  Ran around a 38 min 5mi at 195lbs.  Completed the 12mi ruck in 2:46.

In terms of pt numbers:

Apft-recently
Push-ups- around 75 
Sit-ups: consistently low to mid 80s
2 mi run:  ~15

Bench: 275
Squat : 305
Deadlift: 455
Push press: 215 

So improvement is definitely need in most areas.


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## CDG (Jul 23, 2014)

Whichever program works best is based on you and what your strengths/weaknesses are.  They all have their merits.  Military Athlete is the most established and has a lot of great reviews for their specialty plans, particularly the Ruck Based Selection plan.  It seems like a lot of guys have successfully used that plan to complete SFAS. TF Black and SOFWODs are also great programs.  I've done all 3.  I would say I think Military Athlete is probably the most technically sound program.  That's not a slight on the other two, but the system has been around longer and had a lot of tweaks made to it over the years based on input from a lot of guys that do a lot of different things.  You can't go wrong no matter which program you choose.  Remember that dudes have been passing Selection courses since long before all these specialized programs popped up.


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## Bryan55 (Jul 23, 2014)

Awesome, thank you for your input.  I guess i just need to choose one.  Besides the Ruck based selection program, I'm guessing your answer would be the same in terms of using the operator sessions compared to tf black and sofwods?


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## CDG (Jul 23, 2014)

Bryan55 said:


> Awesome, thank you for your input.  I guess i just need to choose one.  Besides the Ruck based selection program, I'm guessing your answer would be the same in terms of using the operator sessions compared to tf black and sofwods?


 
Yes.


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## Bryan55 (Jul 23, 2014)

Solid, thank you!


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 23, 2014)

As you start with one program and then switch to another, you will find where the shortcomings are.  I was doing MA for quite a while and thought my core strength was pretty solid because my PT test numbers were increasing.  Then I switched to SOFWOD and found some of their core stuff to be brutal.  This is just one example and my brother CDG brought up a lot of good points in his post.
The other thing I will say is incorporating any kind of METCON training with 5/3/1 should be very easy to do.  5/3/1 takes all thinking out of the equation and involves a very simple and linear progression.  If you want to get stronger, do 5/3/1.  There's no reason you should be in the gym for more than 30 minutes on any given day following that programming.

ETA: If your run sucks, guess what you should be doing 3-4 times a week?


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## Bryan55 (Jul 23, 2014)

Right.  I think my biggest concern now would be picking a program that wouldn't fully prepare me for SFAS.  Im sure there will be shortcomings no matter what program i go with; however as long as they aren't hurting my chances at selection its not the worst thing.  I definitely understand the benefit of 5/3/1.  I was doing westside for about two years.  All my lifts shot up pretty dramatically.  My strength goals would probably be:

Bench: 315
Squat: 405
Deadlift: 500
Press: BW

If i could choose right now i would do 5/3/1 or westside, as i love weight lifting, but as much as i want to focus on strength, i don't want to focus so much on it that it takes away from SFAS preparation.  Do you feel that 5/3/1 routine with SOFWODs everyday would be up there with MA?  I think no matter what programming i go with, i will do MAs ruck based selection the 8 weeks prior to my date.


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## Bryan55 (Jul 23, 2014)

To be honest, my overall goal would be to get to an elite level of military fitness.  i.e. benching over 315, squatting over 400, deadlifting over 500, etc, 80+ pushups and sit-ups in 2 min, all while running 13 minute 2 miles, rucking 12 miles in less than 2:30, stuff like that.  My issue is how do i get there?  College and pro athletes have trainers programming everything personally for them.  I know that if i attempted programming myself (other than just a lifting routine, such as adding in runs/rucks etc), my progress if any, would be minimal and slow and I'm sure id favor the lifting.  I also know that most people won't be able to run as far/fast while maintaining high squat/dead numbers.


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## CDG (Jul 23, 2014)

Bryan55 said:


> Right.  I think my biggest concern now would be picking a program that wouldn't fully prepare me for SFAS.



You're setting yourself up for failure with this thought process. I haven't been to SFAS, but the TACP pipeline isn't a walk in the park.  You're never fully prepared for a Selection, and trying to be so only increases your risk of injury, i.e. continuing to push when you're legitimately hurt or injured during your train-up, and sets you up for disappointment when the cadre have smoked your balls off within the first 10-15 minutes of the first PT session on the first day.  Train hard, take care of your body, and go in with the mindset that it doesn't matter if you realize you wish you had done something different in preparation.  I think everyone that completes a Selection and/or training pipeline can think of something they would have done differently had they known.  That's the whole point though, you don't know.


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## Bryan55 (Jul 23, 2014)

I totally agree and understand, I didn't mean to convey that I expect to be fully prepared for every single event.  I just wanted to see what people though the best program that allows them to maximize progress is.


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## amlove21 (Jul 24, 2014)

Bryan55 said:


> To be honest, my overall goal would be to get to an elite level of military fitness.  i.e. benching over 315, squatting over 400, deadlifting over 500, etc, 80+ pushups and sit-ups in 2 min, all while running 13 minute 2 miles, rucking 12 miles in less than 2:30, stuff like that.  My issue is how do i get there?


Well, when you figure out how to get to those stats, you let me know. 

I dont have anyone on my teams that does that.


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## Bryan55 (Jul 24, 2014)

Hah, roger that.  My intent was really just to discuss the best ways of getting into an elite level of fitness in the military.  I completely understand that a lot of the weight lifting numbers will stay moderate if run & ruck times are to be above average.  Honestly, for guys that care about lifting, i think the best way to go would be to have a strong powerlifting base then transitioning to more of an endurance focus.  That way you'll have have strong base, know the proper way to perform lifting exercises, but still be good to go at runs and rucks and other military focused events or movements.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 24, 2014)

You realize that as early as like 10 years ago guys were having to learn shit once they were in a pipeline?  Want to be a SEAL, you're a good swimmer?  Sweet, pass the PST and then we'll teach you the CSS when you make it to BUD/S and you're getting your shit pushed in all day long.
Like someone already said, guys have been passing Selection courses long before the interwebz and all these sites were around.  At the end of the day, it comes down to the size of the balls in your pants.  The guys that I saw get their pins were all different sizes and they probably all prepared differently.


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## Grizzlystr (Sep 3, 2014)

Has anyone tried or know someone who tried the new "Fortitude" program from MA? I've seen good reviews and the setup seems good.


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## yarles87 (Sep 3, 2014)

I'm in the middle of it now. Nothing super revolutionary, but I'm enjoying it. 1 ruck run, 2 long runs, and strength stuff. Good progression if you're not used to running longer distances or ruck runs.


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## CDG (Sep 4, 2014)

Also in the middle of it now.  Pretty much what yarles said.  It gets a little monotonous, but that's probably because I'm not a huge fan of running.  It's a simple and effective program.


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## Grizzlystr (Sep 4, 2014)

That's cool, been lacking on the ruck side of the house. Just been having issues with shin splints. What distances does the program start with and how's the progression?


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## CDG (Sep 5, 2014)

Grizzlystr said:


> That's cool, been lacking on the ruck side of the house. Just been having issues with shin splints. What distances does the program start with and how's the progression?


 
The specific plan being referenced, Fortitude, starts at 4 miles and works up to 7.  All with 45#.


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## Jay (Dec 16, 2014)

I've been off and on MA since May. 
Bench-270
Squat-405
Deadlift-475
Clean-290

APFT as of monday(diagnostic): 
Push-ups-88
Situps-70
2 mile run: 13:20

12 mile ruck-2:30ish

Now, anything past 3 miles and my run times plummet(8minute-ish/mile) and I don't even want to know what id get in a 500m+swim. But work capacity is through the roof. Best shape I've ever been in. I follow his nutrition advice, meat/fish/eggs and veggies, some nuts and a little fruit. Black coffee and water. Saturday's is for booze and junk food. 

Rob Shaul is the real deal. Well worth the $30 a month in my opinion.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 18, 2014)

I agreed with you for the first 3-4 months that I did MA, then it became repetitive and boring and I lost interest. 
Also, I've never understood people who can do more push ups than sit ups. What's up with that?


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## CDG (Dec 19, 2014)

SkrewzLoose said:


> I agreed with you for the first 3-4 months that I did MA, then it became repetitive and boring and I lost interest.
> Also, I've never understood people who can do more push ups than sit ups. What's up with that?



I went through a boredom stage with MA as well.  I've come full circle though and finally realized that it's the mark of true high-level programming.  The physical requirements for military athletes are fairly well known.  They need to be specifically trained to.  The CrossFit approach keeps you interested, but is not a program that will build the mil specific fitness that MA does.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 19, 2014)

CDG said:


> I went through a boredom stage with MA as well.  I've come full circle though and finally realized that it's the mark of true high-level programming.  The physical requirements for military athletes are fairly well known.  They need to be specifically trained to.  The CrossFit approach keeps you interested, but is not a program that will build the mil specific fitness that MA does.


Is that true for MA in general or just their "XYZ based selection programs"? And has MA changed their programming in the last 12-24 months or is it more or less the same as it has been?
Also, you have a better understanding of the programming than I do, how would you rank MA up against TFB and SOFWOD? Does MA win out because it trains to specific goals?


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## CDG (Dec 19, 2014)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Is that true for MA in general or just their "XYZ based selection programs"? And has MA changed their programming in the last 12-24 months or is it more or less the same as it has been?
> Also, you have a better understanding of the programming than I do, how would you rank MA up against TFB and SOFWOD? Does MA win out because it trains to specific goals?



It's true for them in general.  Their programming has become more structured.  They've also re-done their endurance/stamina work to be less time consuming.

My personal opinion is that MA is a better program for guys already in, and their specific plans are the best choice if you happen to be heading to one of those schools/selections.  TFB and SOFWODs are better suited as a general purpose program for SOF candidates.  They're all 3 great programs and I certainly don't have anything negative to say about TFB or SOFWODs.  As you know, I've done all 3.  I just keep coming back to MA though.


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## reed11b (Dec 19, 2014)

CDG, do you know anyone that has used fatalfitness? They are the only ones I know of with a TACP specific plan.
Reed


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 19, 2014)

CDG said:


> It's true for them in general.  Their programming has become more structured.  They've also re-done their endurance/stamina work to be less time consuming.
> 
> My personal opinion is that MA is a better program for guys already in, and their specific plans are the best choice if you happen to be heading to one of those schools/selections.  TFB and SOFWODs are better suited as a general purpose program for SOF candidates.  They're all 3 great programs and I certainly don't have anything negative to say about TFB or SOFWODs.  As you know, I've done all 3.  I just keep coming back to MA though.


I might have to check them out again. I hate trying to make up my own programming outside of 5/3/1. Thanks for the info, bro.


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## CDG (Dec 19, 2014)

reed11b said:


> CDG, do you know anyone that has used fatalfitness? They are the only ones I know of with a TACP specific plan.
> Reed



I don't.  I had looked at it when I was first starting out to be a TACP and thought MA was a better program.  I know they've updated their site and started charging monthly dues for the workouts.   I never subscribed though, so I don't know what their workouts look like these days.  I'm about to start using a specialty plan to prep for the SOF TACP Selection, but I will probably check FF out afterwards to see how it compares to MAs daily programming. Won't be until early March though.  As far as specific plans, I think MAs ruck-based selection plan is a good one to use for the TACP pipeline.  The Ranger School plan would be another good one, that's the one I'm starting soon.


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## CDG (Dec 19, 2014)

SkrewzLoose said:


> I might have to check them out again. I hate trying to make up my own programming outside of 5/3/1. Thanks for the info, bro.



To quote Dan John, "If you coach yourself, you have an idiot for a client."  I know there are guys here that do it very well, like @Etype.  I am not one of those guys though, and I do much better with a laid out program.   I think most people will see better gains and faster results by following programming from somewhere else.


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## Jay (Dec 19, 2014)

reed11b said:


> CDG, do you know anyone that has used fatalfitness? They are the only ones I know of with a TACP specific plan.
> Reed



I did fatal fitness for a while. I have the TACP ETG. IMO it's no where close to SOF wods or MA.



CDG said:


> I don't.  I had looked at it when I was first starting out to be a TACP and thought MA was a better program.  I know they've updated their site and started charging monthly dues for the workouts.   I never subscribed though, so I don't know what their workouts look like these days.  I'm about to start using a specialty plan to prep for the SOF TACP Selection, but I will probably check FF out afterwards to see how it compares to MAs daily programming. Won't be until early March though.  As far as specific plans, I think MAs ruck-based selection plan is a good one to use for the TACP pipeline.  The Ranger School plan would be another good one, that's the one I'm starting soon.



I have them both if you want them.



SkrewzLoose said:


> I agreed with you for the first 3-4 months that I did MA, then it became repetitive and boring and I lost interest.
> Also, I've never understood people who can do more push ups than sit ups. What's up with that?




As far as push-ups over situps. It's the reason I didn't get a ranger slot at AIT. I've always been terrible at situps. I'm 6'1" and 215lbs. I'm by no means super lean but even with calisthenic work, sand bag getups and lots of core work through MA I'm still bad at situps. Maybe it's mental idk


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 20, 2014)

CDG said:


> To quote Dan John, "If you coach yourself, you have an idiot for a client."  I know there are guys here that do it very well, like @Etype.  I am not one of those guys though, and I do much better with a laid out program.   I think most people will see better gains and faster results by following programming from somewhere else.


I'm the same way, brother. After my 5/3/1 sets each day, I flip through a few different CF pages and choose a WOD that could serve as extra accessory work. I don't like thinking any more than I have to. I might look into getting back into MA after the new year. I plan on sticking with 5/3/1 for the foreseeable future, but I'm always open to new ideas for HIIT work to go along with it. 



Jay said:


> As far as push-ups over situps. It's the reason I didn't get a ranger slot at AIT. I've always been terrible at situps. I'm 6'1" and 215lbs. I'm by no means super lean but even with calisthenic work, sand bag getups and lots of core work through MA I'm still bad at situps. Maybe it's mental idk


I'm 6'2" and I suck at push ups. I can knock out 80 sit ups with no problem, but I struggle to break 60 push ups in 2 minutes. I always have. MA did great things for my core strength. Different strokes, different folks...


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## CDG (Dec 20, 2014)

Jay said:


> I have them both if you want them.



Thanks for the offer.  I already have them as well.


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## Jay (Dec 20, 2014)

SkrewzLoose said:


> I'm the same way, brother. After my 5/3/1 sets each day, I flip through a few different CF pages and choose a WOD that could serve as extra accessory work. I don't like thinking any more than I have to. I might look into getting back into MA after the new year. I plan on sticking with 5/3/1 for the foreseeable future, but I'm always open to new ideas for HIIT work to go along with it.
> 
> 
> I'm 6'2" and I suck at push ups. I can knock out 80 sit ups with no problem, but I struggle to break 60 push ups in 2 minutes. I always have. MA did great things for my core strength. Different strokes, different folks...



Exactly. I can legitimately do zero push-ups for a month, take a pt test and they'll drop only a couple of reps. Situps on the other hand? 1SG would be in my face screaming at me bc I probably failed.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Dec 21, 2014)

Rowing will help your 2 mile and 5 mile run times.....


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## CDG (Mar 23, 2015)

MA has continued to release quality programs and packets.  The main reason I'm posting is to get their Stuck In A Motel Plan out there.  I just came back from a weeklong TDY where it was tough to try and get quality workouts in that made sense.  For those who travel frequently and don't have access to some of the types of gyms we have at our units, enjoy.

http://strongswiftdurable.com/shop/...JPWiyF6neXhhXQ4mtCUSpwn2DZKafQ&_hsmi=16677075


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## reed11b (Mar 23, 2015)

Did you see they finally have a TACP plan?
Reed


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## CDG (Mar 23, 2015)

reed11b said:


> Did you see they finally have a TACP plan?
> Reed



Yes.  I posted the link to it in the TACP Mentor Forum.


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## DatGuyGilley (Mar 26, 2015)

Has anyone tried the Rat 6 strength program?

I'm debating between the Big 24 and this one.

I'm currently doing the Hypertrophy for Skinny Guys plan, and would like to focus on strength after this.


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## CDG (Mar 27, 2015)

Big 24 is probably their best plan for building raw strength.


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## amorris127289 (Mar 27, 2015)

The strength coach that I am interning under developed a program similar to 5-3-1 and he has put many of players into the NFL, including Demarcus Ware, and a ton of others.


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## amorris127289 (Jun 3, 2015)

Take it or leave it. But I was relayed this from my friend, waiting to report to basic then start the CCT pipeline,who was told by his recruiter down at Eglin.


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## Etype (Jun 4, 2015)

Looks like another argument for specificity. Mike Tuscherer and Greg Nuckols have been writing a lot about it lately as it pertains to powerlifting- bascally, if you want to squat a lot, you have to squat a lot.

Kenyan marathon runners don't do much if any cross training- they run.

If you want to be good at running, rucking, swimming, etc... a barbell isn't going to be that big of a help.


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## CoalTrain (Jun 8, 2015)

Speaking of sticking with the basics in training I have like 70-100 of the old Sealfit SOF candidate wods in a word doc if anyone is interested. There's some pretty sick cal plus running workouts that i've used over the years. I always fall back on these if I feel like i'm getting stale in my training. The workouts are before the time of having to pay for Sealfit so there not downloaded or stolen. Ill gladly send them out to anyone interested.


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## StewCrew23 (Jun 15, 2015)

CoalTrain said:


> Speaking of sticking with the basics in training I have like 70-100 of the old Sealfit SOF candidate wods in a word doc if anyone is interested. There's some pretty sick cal plus running workouts that i've used over the years. I always fall back on these if I feel like i'm getting stale in my training. The workouts are before the time of having to pay for Sealfit so there not downloaded or stolen. Ill gladly send them out to anyone interested.


I am definitely interested can I get a copy of those WODs you have?


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## Strive4Greatness (Jun 15, 2015)

CoalTrain said:


> Speaking of sticking with the basics in training I have like 70-100 of the old Sealfit SOF candidate wods in a word doc if anyone is interested. There's some pretty sick cal plus running workouts that i've used over the years. I always fall back on these if I feel like i'm getting stale in my training. The workouts are before the time of having to pay for Sealfit so there not downloaded or stolen. Ill gladly send them out to anyone interested.



I'm interested, if you could PM me a copy. Thanks


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## CoalTrain (Jun 15, 2015)

Will do, it'll be this afternoon when I get home.


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## Red Ryder (Jun 15, 2015)

CoalTrain said:


> Speaking of sticking with the basics in training I have like 70-100 of the old Sealfit SOF candidate wods in a word doc if anyone is interested. There's some pretty sick cal plus running workouts that i've used over the years. I always fall back on these if I feel like i'm getting stale in my training. The workouts are before the time of having to pay for Sealfit so there not downloaded or stolen. Ill gladly send them out to anyone interested.


Ditto. Would love to check these out


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## CoalTrain (Jun 15, 2015)

PM's Inbound.


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## BellRinger5984 (Jun 15, 2015)

I would also like to check them out.


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## Jael (Jun 23, 2015)

I would like to throw out a compliment to Mr. Shaul. It was about 5AM (his time) I sent him an email requesting some advice on a training program to help overall fitness with recovering from a few injuries I have I gave him a nice detailed list of what I have and where I am at. He advised me on a bodyweight program 1 to rebuild fitness, this wasn't an expensive program, he didn't try to sell me on a membership and the email was delivered within 20 minutes of me sending mine. That's pretty quality service if you ask me.


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## Wonderly123 (Jun 24, 2015)

CoalTrain said:


> Speaking of sticking with the basics in training I have like 70-100 of the old Sealfit SOF candidate wods in a word doc if anyone is interested. There's some pretty sick cal plus running workouts that i've used over the years. I always fall back on these if I feel like i'm getting stale in my training. The workouts are before the time of having to pay for Sealfit so there not downloaded or stolen. Ill gladly send them out to anyone interested.



If You're still able to send those I would love to get a copy


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## CoalTrain (Jun 25, 2015)

Wonderly123 said:


> If You're still able to send those I would love to get a copy



PM inbound.


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## RMM80 (Aug 11, 2015)

CoalTrain said:


> Speaking of sticking with the basics in training I have like 70-100 of the old Sealfit SOF candidate wods in a word doc if anyone is interested. There's some pretty sick cal plus running workouts that i've used over the years. I always fall back on these if I feel like i'm getting stale in my training. The workouts are before the time of having to pay for Sealfit so there not downloaded or stolen. Ill gladly send them out to anyone interested.


Wow I would really be interested to look at those also if they are still available.


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## CY (Jun 4, 2016)

For anyone interested in MA but isn't yet sold on their programs, they are offering a free (in exchange for an email) 6 week Firefighters On-Ramp program on their site.  The programing is very similar to their military specific programs.  The link is at the bottom right on any given page under the ads.


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## PDL (May 31, 2018)

Old thread but I would like to say how impressed I am with military athlete's (or mtntactical.com as they are called now) programming.  I have been following it for nine weeks (on ramp, and then Greek hero series) and it seems to cover all bases.

The workouts are simple but always challenging and there is always a good progression.  When the same workout comes around again, it will be tougher than before by way of reps or time.  You can tell a lot of trial and error has gone into it.  This is what sets it apart from CrossFit or circuit training that anyone can make up i.e.

Random exercise
Random exercise
Row.500m
3 rounds for time of 9,15,21 reps


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## ThunderHorse (Jun 1, 2018)

I wish I had done on-ramp before strength and honor...holy shit.  Haven't done any MA workouts in years.


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## CupCake (May 2, 2020)

The biggest thing I noticed after doing some of their work is like a lot of people have said, the running programming is not all there. Theyve moved almost exclusively to "interval" training based off of their run/ruck/swim calculators, so if you say do the USMC PFT improvement plan, you run 1 mile repeats 3-4 days a week and you jog 5 miles once a week. I didnt see a whole lot of improvement on my PFT, maybe a minute or so. But I could run the first mile in 5:45 now before burning out.

The biggest takeaway I have from MA is whatever school or selection you're going to, really hammer down the graded physical events, and everything else is secondary. All of their plans revolve around like 6 goals tops. If theres more than that then they have a different plan probably, so I work on 5 things at a time max.

Their workouts nowadays are a lot more "predictable" (as in why pay for it if I already know how you're going to program it).

Working on your 5 mile run? 3x2 mile intervals 3 days a week, 1 long run. Working on your USMC PFT? 3x1 mile intervals 3 days a week, 1 long run etc. They give you a free  week of each of their plans and generally you can just make your own assumptions on the progression and you'd be right.

The other issue to me was time. In the A&S plan, you work up to 15 total miles of rucking monday and do the same workout Thursday. I had to get up at 3:30 am just to make it to the office on time because if I started that workout in the PM I would've been home too late for my better half to tolerate.

BLUF: liked some of it, and some of it really didnt work for me/just didnt have time to do it. If you're on lockdown and allowed to PT outside I say go for it, but if you really need to hammer endurance/speed endurance you might wanna look elsewhere.

Mod Edit:  This forum will not be a party to the sharing of copyrighted material.


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## Hugo_merino1231 (Jun 21, 2020)

Are these still available??


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## AWP (Jun 22, 2020)

No. This forum will not be a party to the sharing of copyrighted material.


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