# Israel



## DA SWO (Jul 8, 2014)

Do they cross the border, or will John Kerry defuse the situation in the nick of time?


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## AWP (Jul 8, 2014)

LMAO

Kerry's plate is full right now. Israel, Iraq, and Afghanistan elections? He could go 0 - 3.


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## DA SWO (Jul 8, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> LMAO
> 
> Kerry's plate is full right now. Israel, Iraq, and Afghanistan elections? He could go 0 - 3.


He can blame Hillary.


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## AWP (Jul 8, 2014)

SOWT said:


> He can blame Hillary.


 
You have a better chance of Bowe Bergdahl finishing a deployment than you do of a high level politician accepting responsibility for failure.


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## DA SWO (Jul 8, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> You have a better chance of Bowe Bergdahl finishing a deployment than you do of a high level politician accepting responsibility for failure.


Oh snap!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 8, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> You have a better chance of Bowe Bergdahl finishing a deployment than you do of a high level politician accepting responsibility for failure.


Damn dude, LOL!


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## CQB (Jul 8, 2014)

TEL AVIV: Israeli prime minister Benjamin Netanyahu has claimed that the latest round of airstrikes on Gaza should stop further senseless killings on both Israeli and Palestinian sides.

“I truly believe that pummelling Gaza should help prevent the pointless cycle of violence from escalating,” he told reporters, following a night of deadly aerial assaults in response to the killing of three Israeli teenagers.

“Judging from the last 70 years of Arab-Israeli relations, there’s no conceivable way that laying waste to Gaza is going to incite more rocket attacks, leading to further airstrikes in a mindless, ever-spiralling orgy of death that will undoubtedly lead to a futile peace summit somewhere in Scandinavia,” he said.

“Hamas seem like reasonable people,” Netanyahu added. “I’m sure that once they see giant mushroom clouds of smoke rising across the landscape they’ll decide to calm down.”


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## pardus (Jul 8, 2014)

We should have sold Israel lots of B-52's, then the Israelis could give Hamas and all it's supporters the Red Carpet (bombing) treatment.


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## Chopstick (Jul 9, 2014)

All I know is that that makes me feel all warm inside.


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## CQB (Jul 10, 2014)

Well, that was a "thank you & good night" moment.


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## Scotth (Jul 13, 2014)

Well Israel certainly didn't learn any lessons from their adventure in Lebanon.


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## AWP (Jul 13, 2014)

I hope Israel monkey stomps them.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 13, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Do they cross the border, or will John Kerry defuse the situation in the nick of time?



It is amazing to me that kerry can get to the bathroom,"in the nick of time":wall:.



Freefalling said:


> You have a better chance of Bowe Bergdahl finishing a deployment than you do of a high level politician accepting responsibility for failure.



What is so sad, is that your observation is so spot on. They are legends in their own minds. It matters  not what the outcome might be, in the view of the world. What is most important is the spin in any issue, and that it all fits the agenda that, " government is good, and that big government is better yet and neither is ever wrong". It makes me ill to think of all that is going on, unchecked . I should stop now, before I get into trouble:wall:.


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## CQB (Jul 14, 2014)

Civilian deaths in Gaza, some observations. 
"We phone up our enemies and tell them that we are going to blow up the building, we throw non-explosive munitions, and that is a sign they are supposed to vacate the building. Only once we have seen them vacate the building—and we are talking about [hitting] command and control places and not the terrorists themselves—then we hit."


http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...look_at_the_death_toll_israel_s_warnings.html


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## Scubadew (Jul 15, 2014)

CQB said:


> Civilian deaths in Gaza, some observations.
> "We phone up our enemies and tell them that we are going to blow up the building, we throw non-explosive munitions, and that is a sign they are supposed to vacate the building. Only once we have seen them vacate the building—and we are talking about [hitting] command and control places and not the terrorists themselves—then we hit."
> 
> 
> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...look_at_the_death_toll_israel_s_warnings.html



Israeli getting out of hand... 

:-"


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## CQB (Jul 15, 2014)

Israel will win the battle but may lose the war.


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## DA SWO (Jul 15, 2014)

CQB said:


> Israel will win the battle but may lose the war.


Public opinion will never be with them, they need to just kick ass and not worry about public opinion.


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## CQB (Jul 15, 2014)

True, it's not like they've been here before. But it's an interesting tactic, to inform the target that you're going to bomb them with time for them to leave, so the guys in the Hamas head shed tell them not to go but come back and be a human shield. :whatever:


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## Scotth (Jul 15, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Public opinion will never be with them, they need to just kick ass and not worry about public opinion.



Israel had public opinion at one point.  4 decades later of doing the same thing not so much and it's getting less even in the US.


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## AWP (Jul 15, 2014)

Scotth said:


> Israel had public opinion at one point.  4 decades later of doing the same thing not so much and it's getting less even in the US.


 
That may well be the case, but how could anyone side with Hamas? Short of apathy people winding up taking sides at some point.


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## AWP (Jul 15, 2014)

Egypt: Could you guys please stop killing each other so we can discuss this?
Israel: No problem. We'll halt the strikes.
Hamas: Have some rockets.
Israel: Okay, back to bombing.

We're not talking concessions, we're talking about opening the border crossings again and negotiations. Hamas won't even do that? Flush those turds.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/07/15/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2


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## Marauder06 (Jul 15, 2014)

I left Israel right before the latest shenanigans started.  The IDF will typically do what they call a "roof knock" with a noisemaker before they go all kinetic over someone's house.  That usually gives civilians (and bad guys) time to get out but not enough time to evacuate comms/heavy weapons etc. before the roof comes down.


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## comrade-z (Jul 15, 2014)

To inject some humor relevant to the current situation.....
http://www.algemeiner.com/2014/07/1...-dominos-pizza-facebook-page-hilarity-ensues/


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## CQB (Jul 16, 2014)

I'm thinking it's more like cricket. 

Reuters AAP: Israel won the toss and elected to bat. Hamas opened the bowling with some fiery fast bowling from the Red Sea end of the ground. Despite the Hamas fast bowlers doing their best, Israel took up the challenge & smashed boundaries all afternoon. Play finished with the score at 3 for 205 in Israels favour after umpire Kerry halted play due to bad light.


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## CQB (Jul 17, 2014)

Hey LL, you like cricket? Kewl.


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## comrade-z (Jul 17, 2014)

And the ground invasion begins - stated targets include smuggling infrastructure.  Hopefully demolishing said tunnels is all that happens, and actual fighting is kept to a minimum.

http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/07/17/israel_launches_ground_invasion_in_gaza


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## DA SWO (Jul 17, 2014)

comrade-z said:


> And the ground invasion begins - stated targets include smuggling infrastructure.  Hopefully demolishing said tunnels is all that happens, and actual fighting is kept to a minimum.
> 
> http://thecable.foreignpolicy.com/posts/2014/07/17/israel_launches_ground_invasion_in_gaza


I hope they send Hamas and crew back 15-20 years; too the Stone Age!


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## comrade-z (Jul 17, 2014)

SOWT said:


> I hope they send Hamas and crew back 15-20 years; too the Stone Age!



Agreed on that - I had mostly just meant a lack of bloodshed on Israel's part.  Also, I feel I posted too soon as thinking about it a bit more, from what I've learned from Israelis it seems that ground fighting means better odds (what I've heard from Israelis) of getting more Hamas personnel, and I can't really disagree with the benefits of that.  So far it also seems like everyone I know over there is supportive of the decision, too.


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## Gunz (Jul 18, 2014)

John  Kerry could not negotiate his ass out of a paper bag. When he goes up against guys like Putin and Netanyahu, they make him their b*tch every time. I enjoy it when Israel ignores all the lightweight Western politicians who preach restraint, who claim to be Israel's staunch supporters but who do everything they can to empower Israel's enemies in their fear of antagonizing the dudes with the oil. I remember when Bibi Netanyahu was a Likud party leader during the Gulf War, I remember his testimony to Congress after 9/11. The Man knows jihad. I think we forgot everything he told us about 15 minutes after he left the room.


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## JHD (Jul 19, 2014)

CQB said:


> Civilian deaths in Gaza, some observations.
> "We phone up our enemies and tell them that we are going to blow up the building, we throw non-explosive munitions, and that is a sign they are supposed to vacate the building. Only once we have seen them vacate the building—and we are talking about [hitting] command and control places and not the terrorists themselves—then we hit."
> 
> 
> http://www.slate.com/articles/news_...look_at_the_death_toll_israel_s_warnings.html



Also, saw this on Facebook...


.


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## Poccington (Jul 19, 2014)

JHD said:


> Also, saw this on Facebook...
> 
> 
> .



It left out the boxes for "Opened border crossings" and "Don't fire shells at kids on a beach" but then again, they wouldn't be able to tick those boxes.

Both sides in the conflict are led by utter fucking gimps. Anyone who acts like either side are blameless or "the good guys" are off their heads.


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## hoepoe (Jul 20, 2014)

Poccington said:


> It left out the boxes for "Opened border crossings" and "Don't fire shells at kids on a beach" but then again, they wouldn't be able to tick those boxes.
> 
> Both sides in the conflict are led by utter fucking gimps. Anyone who acts like either side are blameless or "the good guys" are off their heads.


Actually, you're a fucking gimp. get your facts right or shut the fuck up.


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## Poccington (Jul 20, 2014)

Wowsers.

I'm sure your opinion isn't remotely biased. If you think Israel is blameless in the entire Israel/Palestinian situation, I applaud your ability to breathe while your head is stuck in the sand.


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## Marine0311 (Jul 20, 2014)

hoepoe said:


> Actually, you're a fucking gimp. get your facts right or shut the fuck up.


 
Check your fire @hoepoe . If you have a problem take it to PM with that member or me.


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## Marine0311 (Jul 20, 2014)

Poccington said:


> Wowsers.
> 
> I'm sure your opinion isn't remotely biased. If you think Israel is blameless in the entire Israel/Palestinian situation, I applaud your ability to breathe while your head is stuck in the sand.


 
..and you check your fire also @Poccington .


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## hoepoe (Jul 20, 2014)

Poccington said:


> Wowsers.
> 
> I'm sure your opinion isn't remotely biased. If you think Israel is blameless in the entire Israel/Palestinian situation, I applaud your ability to breathe while your head is stuck in the sand.


I just know the facts as opposed to being fed them by a bias press in the UK. Even basic knowledge would show you that one border is with Israel and the other with Egypt. Guess who's letting in aid and who's not? Here's a hint, it's not Egypt..war is a bitch and loss of innocents life is deeply regrettable but I will not be apologist to you or anyone else that we have less losses than the enemy.


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## hoepoe (Jul 20, 2014)

Marine0311 said:


> Check your fire @hoepoe . If you have a problem take it to PM with that member or me.


Understood.


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## Poccington (Jul 20, 2014)

hoepoe said:


> I just know the facts as opposed to being fed them by a bias press in the UK. Even basic knowledge would show you that one border is with Israel and the other with Egypt. Guess who's letting in aid and who's not? Here's a hint, it's not Egypt..war is a bitch and loss of innocents life is deeply regrettable but I will not be apologist to you or anyone else that we have less losses than the enemy.



I'm aware of the borders thanks. I'm not arguing about the difference in losses, nor am I a Palestinian apologist. I'm very much an advocate of the "If you don't want Israel to attack you, don't fire rockets at Israel" train of thought. I also think a lot of the time Israel do very little to help the situation.

I merely believe both sides should shoulder the blame for the situation there. There's no "good guys", pics released by the IDF like the one above are nothing more than propoganda and don't have any place in reality, much the same as Hamas painting themselves as brave freedom fighters on their last legs, while trying to slip through tunnels into Israel.


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## hoepoe (Jul 20, 2014)

Poccington said:


> I'm aware of the borders thanks. I'm not arguing about the difference in losses, nor am I a Palestinian apologist. I'm very much an advocate of the "If you don't want Israel to attack you, don't fire rockets at Israel" train of thought. I also think a lot of the time Israel do very little to help the situation.
> 
> I merely believe both sides should shoulder the blame for the situation there. There's no "good guys", pics released by the IDF like the one above are nothing more than propoganda and don't have any place in reality, much the same as Hamas painting themselves as brave freedom fighters on their last legs, while trying to slip through tunnels into Israel.



You're still ignorant. I will not try educate you as you seem to 'already know it all". Of course there's propaganda and there's the truth, we, the GOOD GUYS have both, the HAMAS only propaganda. I've been there, have you?


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## DA SWO (Jul 20, 2014)

Poccington said:


> I'm aware of the borders thanks. I'm not arguing about the difference in losses, nor am I a Palestinian apologist. I'm very much an advocate of the "If you don't want Israel to attack you, don't fire rockets at Israel" train of thought. I also think a lot of the time Israel do very little to help the situation.
> 
> I merely believe both sides should shoulder the blame for the situation there. There's no "good guys", pics released by the IDF like the one above are nothing more than propoganda and don't have any place in reality, much the same as Hamas painting themselves as brave freedom fighters on their last legs, while trying to slip through tunnels into Israel.



Was releasing the video propaganda, or in response to a hamas claim that they are targeting civilians?

I personally hope Hamas gets it's assed kicked, and that goes for their enablers.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 20, 2014)

hoepoe said:


> You're still ignorant. I will not try educate you as you seem to 'already know it all". Of course there's propaganda and there's the truth, we, the GOOD GUYS have both, the HAMAS only propaganda. I've been there, have you?



You've already been warned once by the staff. This type of inflammatory rhetoric does nothing to advance the discussion.  If you can't talk rationally and objectively about the subject, then please stay out of it altogether.

I know this is an important subject for you, as it is literally life-or-death for not only Israel but for you personally.  But you're not going to educate people or nudge peoples' beliefs along if you're going to take this approach.  You definitely won't be able to do it if you're banned.

Signed, a guy who is 100% pro-Israel but still has a site with standards to maintain.


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## hoepoe (Jul 20, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> You've already been warned once by the staff. This type of inflammatory rhetoric does nothing to advance the discussion.  If you can't talk rationally and objectively about the subject, then please stay out of it altogether.
> 
> I know this is an important subject for you, as it is literally life-or-death for not only Israel but for you personally.  But you're not going to educate people or nudge peoples' beliefs along if you're going to take this approach.  You definitely won't be able to do it if you're banned.
> 
> Signed, a guy who is 100% pro-Israel but still has a site with standards to maintain.


I have no rational discussion to make with someone who already has made up his mind. I have tried over the years to place facts before people, but once theirmind is made up, it falls on deaf ears.

Respectfully written (from my bomb shelter)

Hoepoe


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## Marauder06 (Jul 20, 2014)

hoepoe said:


> I have no rational discussion to make with someone who already has made up his mind. I have tried over the years to place facts before people, but once theirmind is made up, it falls on deaf ears.
> 
> Respectfully written (from my bomb shelter)
> 
> Hoepoe



Noted.  My best to you and yours during this trying time for your country.  I hope this situation is brought to a decisive end shortly so everyone affected can go back to living their lives.  Maybe we can talk about this more in person when I'm back in Israel next year.  In the meantime, I'm sending you a PM.


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## DA SWO (Jul 20, 2014)

hoepoe said:


> I have no rational discussion to make with someone who already has made up his mind. I have tried over the years to place facts before people, but once theirmind is made up, it falls on deaf ears.
> 
> Respectfully written (from my bomb shelter)
> 
> Hoepoe


Be safe, as an aside.  I find it interesting in this age of cell phone cameras that a quick youtube search only shows official videos from both sides, and no cell phone stuff from inside bunkers recording near misses.


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## AWP (Jul 20, 2014)

One could maybe argue that Israel owns some of the blame in years past. Lately I don't know how one could make that claim. I laugh at people who trumpet the UN but decry Israel's existence. They seem to forget the "who" behind Israel's independence and the UN resolution and its attempted partitioning plan. A bunch of Jewish folk didn't show up in the desert one day, lick the sand, and proclaim it theirs. People also overlook the terrorism Israeli citizens have endured since 1948. As horrible as 9/11 was, it doesn't compare to the decades of misery Israeli citizens have endured. People also forget or ignore that these terrorists are in many cases proxy forces trained, funded, and commanded by other sovreign nations. I'm pretty sure that's a valid _casus belli _to most countries, but we're supposed to condemn Israel for its response and ignore the role played by other nations?

This is a war which began before 1948 and will probably continue until after many of us are dead and gone. Show me a "clean war" with a "clean side." Go ahead, I'll wait.

Blame and mistakes from decades past are kind of moot to the people huddled in a bunker. I'm genuinely sorry about the Palestinian children caught up in this, but what about the Jewish children enduring rocket attacks? One's worth more than the other?

Western nations can't argue that we have the right to defend ourselves but restrict Israel from doing the same. Does anyone really think Israel would bomb Gaza if Hamas or other groups weren't lobbing rockets from that territory?


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## Poccington (Jul 20, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> One could maybe argue that Israel owns some of the blame in years past. Lately I don't know how one could make that claim. I laugh at people who trumpet the UN but decry Israel's existence. They seem to forget the "who" behind Israel's independence and the UN resolution and its attempted partitioning plan. A bunch of Jewish folk didn't show up in the desert one day, lick the sand, and proclaim it theirs. People also overlook the terrorism Israeli citizens have endured since 1948. As horrible as 9/11 was, it doesn't compare to the decades of misery Israeli citizens have endured. People also forget or ignore that these terrorists are in many cases proxy forces trained, funded, and commanded by other sovreign nations. I'm pretty sure that's a valid _casus belli _to most countries, but we're supposed to condemn Israel for its response and ignore the role played by other nations?
> 
> This is a war which began before 1948 and will probably continue until after many of us are dead and gone. Show me a "clean war" with a "clean side." Go ahead, I'll wait.
> 
> ...



The UN are bent. 

Nobody is talking about decades past. Illegal settlements in the West Bank, the collective punishment of the Gaza blockade, childish actions like Netanyahu giving the go ahead for more settlements the day after Palestine gained recognition as a non member observer state... All relatively recent incidents which nobody can say that at the very least, do absolutely nothing to de-escalate the situation.

Anyone who says that Israel has no right to do defend themselves while rockets are being hoofed their way is a moron. However, I'm also of the opinion that the blame doesn't lie solely on the Palestinian side.


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## Poccington (Jul 20, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Was releasing the video propaganda, or in response to a hamas claim that they are targeting civilians?
> 
> I personally hope Hamas gets it's assed kicked, and that goes for their enablers.



Releasing what video?


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## Scotth (Jul 20, 2014)

hoepoe said:


> I will not try educate you as you seem to 'already know it all".



Then why even get in the debate if your not willing to share anything more then telling people with opposing opinions they're wrong?

We should all be offering opinions and points and counter points instead of attacks.

For me we can do this once again and were will it get us?  Your not going to kill your way out of this problem and 5 decades and countless engagements should have taught us all that.  How many incursions is it going to take before we say this isn't working?  At this point Hamas's capabilities, and when we say capabilities we mean firing ineffective rockets, might be getting degraded but with the people of Gaza they are only getting stronger.

After inflicting a bunch of death and destruction on Gaza do you think they are going to be more or less willing to make peace with Israel?


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## Scotth (Jul 20, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> One could maybe argue that Israel owns some of the blame in years past. Lately I don't know how one could make that claim.



Even if some of us believe that Israel is wrong in some of their actions it doesn't even remotely translate into not believing Israel has a right to exist.

But how many times do we have to do the same cycle of armed conflict, negotiated end to hostilities with the promise of some final settlement negotiation that go on forever with no progress.  The cycles ends with more rocket fire or more new settlement construction announced.  Both sides sabotage the future in different ways and that is the point many of us want to make.


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## Poccington (Jul 20, 2014)

Reports from Sky News that Hamas are claiming they've captured an Israeli soldier.

Hopefully not true and if it is, hopefully the Israeli's get him home safe.


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## DA SWO (Jul 20, 2014)

Poccington said:


> Releasing what video?


IDF has released videos showing airstrikes being called off because civilians were too close to the target.


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## Th3 Maelstr0m (Jul 20, 2014)

IME, the Arab-Israeli conflict is easily the most difficult topic to discuss, let alone debate. When I lived in Jordan, no one responded with anything but honest curiosity when they found out I was an atheist, but if I brought up the smallest shred of evidence for the Israeli narrative, it unleashed a shitstorm of a debate. The same thing happens here in America if I say anything against Israel. 

Few on either side (IME) is willing to accept the smallest amount of criticism or blame. You can appreciate Israeli security concerns while mourning the loss of innocents in Gaza. You can understand Israel constructing the wall while feeling for a family in the West Bank who just had their home leveled. Voicing concern for Gaza does not make one an apologist for Hamas. Acknowledging Israel's right to defend themselves does not equate to wishing Palestinians were eradicated. Refusing to acknowledge the loss and blame on both sides is a disservice to everyone.


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## Poccington (Jul 20, 2014)

SOWT said:


> IDF has released videos showing airstrikes being called off because civilians were too close to the target.



Ah right sorry, I hadn't seen it.

Makes sense, with civvies taking the beating they're taking and high profile incidents like the kids on the beach, the IDF has to show that they're not just engaging in a turkey shoot.


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## Ranger Psych (Jul 20, 2014)

When you go into the house that just had a "Low Orbit Ion Cannon firing warning" explosion go off... and go sit on the fucking roof.. you make yourself a combatant. Sorry, not going to even remotely have a feel about that shit.


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## CQB (Jul 20, 2014)

And each one a glorious failure, fucks are not given.


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## Gunz (Jul 22, 2014)

In '73 when 5 Syrian divisions were smashing through the Golan and the only units there to stop them were a few hastily assembled IDF brigades, my battalion (2/6) was roused from sleep, told to pack our seabags and fall out. We were issued weapons. We sat outside and smoked awaiting the trucks that would take us, presumably, to C-141s. Many of us, myself included, wanted to go. We never did.  One reason was because Israel, somehow, against insurmountable odds and crushing assaults on two fronts, managed to stop the invaders and turn a disaster into a punishing counter offensive.

That time we almost had to live up to our pledge to support the Jewish state. We have done everything possible since then to join the chorus of condemnation against her. No man, no country is without sin. But Israel deserves better from us. Her enemies have shown their savagery time and time again, the list of atrocities, mass murders, terrorist attacks, unprovoked assaults against innocent civilians goes on and on. In my biased opinion, brutal retaliation by Israel is not only justified but warranted by the precedents set by her foes.

If we had to live under constant threat of annihilation, we'd be just as hard and cold.


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## CQB (Jul 22, 2014)

Whilst many sing Kumbaya for Gaza, IS crucify Arab Christians.


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## JHD (Jul 22, 2014)

There is some truth to Netanyahu's statement to the effect that if Arab's put down their weapons, the action would lead to peace in the world.  If Israel were to put down their weapons, there would be no more Israel.  Not to say that Israel and her leaders are without fault, but they certainly have the right to exist.


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## Scotth (Jul 25, 2014)

Th3 Maelstr0m said:


> IME, the Arab-Israeli conflict is easily the most difficult topic to discuss, let alone debate. When I lived in Jordan, no one responded with anything but honest curiosity when they found out I was an atheist, but if I brought up the smallest shred of evidence for the Israeli narrative, it unleashed a shitstorm of a debate. The same thing happens here in America if I say anything against Israel.
> 
> Few on either side (IME) is willing to accept the smallest amount of criticism or blame. You can appreciate Israeli security concerns while mourning the loss of innocents in Gaza. You can understand Israel constructing the wall while feeling for a family in the West Bank who just had their home leveled. Voicing concern for Gaza does not make one an apologist for Hamas. Acknowledging Israel's right to defend themselves does not equate to wishing Palestinians were eradicated. Refusing to acknowledge the loss and blame on both sides is a disservice to everyone.



Wish I could Like that post x2.



Ranger Psych said:


> When you go into the house that just had a "Low Orbit Ion Cannon firing warning" explosion go off... and go sit on the fucking roof.. you make yourself a combatant. Sorry, not going to even remotely have a feel about that shit.



or you maybe you're a pissed off person that a foreign government is going to destroy your home and probably your WHOLE families greatest single possession.

Then again you could be a group of children playing on a beach or you could be in a UN shelter or in a hospital and find your assed bombed.

Then again you have to look at the situation from other peoples perspectives.  Looking at cause an affect is never a bad idea.  How did that bombing campaign work out in Lebanon long term.  Remember that campaign when Israel was going to decimate Hezbollah?  How did that work out?  The pro-Western government was thrown out of power and Hezbollah took over the country.

Inflicting death and destruction on the people of Gaza.  Do you think that is going to make them more pro-Israel or more pro-Hamas when it is Hamas that is picking up the pieces after the battle is done?


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## racing_kitty (Jul 25, 2014)

Scotth said:


> or you maybe you're a pissed off person that a foreign government is going to destroy your home and probably your WHOLE families greatest single possession.
> 
> Then again you could be a group of children playing on a beach or you could be in a UN shelter or in a hospital and find your assed bombed.
> 
> ...



So, what exactly do you suggest they do about rockets being stored and launched from schools?  Are they supposed to march in, smoke a joint, and hope that the gods of kumbaya wrap their gossamer wings and rose colored glasses around the room as they sign a cease fire?  Unless I'm mistaken, using a school or hospital as a depot/launch pad makes it a fair target as per the laws of war.  If these innocent, non-violent Palestinians are so happy to keep their beloved homes, then why don't they rise up against Hamas and keep them from storing rockets in their homes?  Do you really think that they are gullible enough to believe that Israel just said "Yeah, I hate the roof tiles on that house, it's gotta come down now," every single time?  I know that they will fight to the death, so why aren't they fighting the ones who are inviting Israeli aggression literally upon their doorsteps?  Oh, yeah, that's right... It's Israel.  At what point is their inability to fight against Hamas considered tacit approval?

I had kept a pretty neutral view of this up until Hamas told Egypt and Israel to shove the cease-fire up their asses.  At that point, I got the popcorn ready for the ass whipping that Israel is going to mete out, and rightly so.  The video where a Hamas spox actually came out and admitted that Israel giving fair warning to civilians to evacuate puts them in compliance with the laws of war, as opposed to Hamas' blatant violations of same, only cemented my opinion.


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## Scotth (Jul 25, 2014)

The rocket attack cause relatively little if any damage.  The rocket for most part are home made POS.  The iron dome deals with those rockets for the most part.

You want to stop the rockets?  First step is stop taking Palestinian lands to build new settlements would be a good start.

Second step would be to offer the Palinestian people a better option then Hamas offers.  Hamas is picking up the trash, they are offering housing and medical clinic and other social service to the people.  Hamas official actually show up for work when they are employed by the government.

Stop funding social strife by arming and funding Fatah to try and cause internal strife.

Don't blow up the only power station the Palestine's have every time your pissed off.

Hamas and other have sabotaged the future because their is no downside to it because Israel doesn't offer anything better.

When Northwest and Delta merged the Northwest flight attendant were union and Delta's flight attendant weren't.  The Northwest flight attendant were allowed to stay union but voted the union out because they thought Delta offered a better option.

After a half century of offering only the stick and no carrot, maybe it's time to try another option if you want to marginalize Hamas.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Jul 25, 2014)

Every time they offer the carrot, its fuck israel.

Fuck hamas, fuck gaza, and fuck all the idiots supporting them and the 30 some-odd countries who have pledged either in public or silently otherwise to ensure Israel ceases to exist.


----------



## racing_kitty (Jul 25, 2014)

I'm talking about stopping them from putting the rockets in schools and homes, not stopping them from firing on Israel.  Apples and oranges, Scotth, apples and oranges.  You can't tell me that a little bit of NIMBYism isn't possible anywhere outside of the United States.

Second of all, as far as Palestinian lands go, back when this site hosted a blog, I put up a pretty lengthy post (I wish I had saved it) in which I went over the the ethnic "chicken and the egg" issue that is "Palestinian land."  To sum it up, Palestine is a Roman construct, and the Hebrews and Palestinians are both of Semitic descent (although the modern Palestinian is a result of Arabization).  However, the Hebrew blood line predates the Palestinian bloodline, especially considering the Hebrews killed off the Phonecians and settled Canaan.  The Philistines came down from Crete sometime around 1100 BCE, were referred to as the Sea People by the ancient Egyptians, and never left.  So, while the modern Palestinians can say that they have been there since 1100 BCE, Hebrews have got them beat by several hundred years, near total extermination of their bloodline by the Romans notwithstanding.  So, either they learn to share, or the Palestinians go back to Arabia and Crete, Hebrews go back to where they came from before Egypt, and you nuke the fucking place from orbit. 

Your call, but ancient history says the Hebrew chicken came before the Palestinian egg.


----------



## AWP (Jul 25, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> This post.


 
Something I think lost in the general shuffle and discourse is "near history." From Day One Israel's Arab neighbors openly attacked the state or trained and funded terrorists who targeted civilians. Israel didn't START going after civilians, that was a response to unending waves of terror in her communities.

Look at the US since 9/11. I think a fair amount of "militarization" has occurred in our society after 13 years of war. Imagine being in a state of war since 1948.  People think about the Six Day or Yom Kippur Wars, maybe they think of Lebanon in the 80's, but a metric ton of "low intensity conflict" has existed since the UN established the state. Agree with their methods or not, but people need to at least consider that they have fought small and large conflicts nearly every day for over 60 YEARS. 3 generations born into that and people act like the national psyche will turn around because of a peace accord or a few speeches? On a personal level, do the same thing every day for a year and see how hard it is to break that habit. We're talking at least three generations BORN into that system.

The US officially ended segregation in 1964. News flash, it isn't exactly dead in certain communities, black or white.

How long have we known AIDS wasn't just for gay people? You think that myth doesn't have legs in this day and age?

Perception is reality and we're talking about 6+ DECADES perceiving their country was in peril...and this doesn't even address the shock from 1973. That perception is also backed by thousands and thousands of dead civilians at the hands of Arab and Arab-backed terrorists.

If I spent my entire life living in someone's objective I'd probably be a tad militant.

Peace plans which don't consider history are doomed to fail.


----------



## CQB (Jul 25, 2014)

The usual clutch of Arab States condemn Israel whenever this type of thing blows up, this time....





*crickets*


----------



## Gunz (Jul 25, 2014)

The media is biased against Israel and sympathetic to her enemies. It influences all the people _outside_ the Middle East who otherwise wouldn't give a shit about the Arab/Israeli conflict. Great thing about the Israelis is they don't give a fuck what the media says. Their gonna do what they have to do.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 25, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> Every time they offer the carrot, its fuck israel.
> 
> Fuck hamas, fuck gaza, and fuck all the idiots supporting them and the 30 some-odd countries who have pledged either in public or silently otherwise to ensure Israel ceases to exist.


 
I should delete the 2 or 3 posts I made on this thread...because I've used about 400 words to say exactly this^^^^


----------



## CQB (Jul 26, 2014)

So it's down to this, charging Israel with war crime, though Palestine isn't a UN signatory. 

But that's not a given. To process the complaint, the Hague-based court must first rule if it has jurisdiction in the Palestinian Authority. The territory isn't a U.N. member but became an observer in 2012, a status the ICC chief prosecutor said was required for Palestinians to sign up to the court.

Some experts don't expect the ICC to recognize the Palestinian proceedings.

"This is more of a symbolic thing. I'd be surprised if The Hague accepts the complaint. I can't see the ICC summoning up the Israeli leaders for evidence," said Mattia Toaldo, policy fellow at the European Council on Foreign Relations.

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory/gaza-officials-accuse-israel-war-crimes-icc-24712658


----------



## pardus (Jul 26, 2014)

Israel fucked up big time when they didn't ethnically cleanse Gaza and the West Bank when they first took possession.

IMO Israel should invade Gaza and do just that now.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 31, 2014)

http://news.yahoo.com/egypt-army-destroys-13-more-gaza-tunnels-093712884.html

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/fe...-add-economic-crisis-2014330144848664175.html

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...y-destroyed-retribution-militant-attacks.html

So Egypt destroy's Gaza tunnels and nobody bats an eye, but Israel destroy's some and everyone get's their panties all wadded up. I really wish those who support a Palestinian state would actually have a clue as to what is going on. That is not to say all Palestinian's are evil, but they are guilty by association. Either they help remove Hamas (and any other terrorist organization) or they are guilty for harboring them. That is why we attacked the Taliban and Iraq. If you read the Iraq War Resolution it strictly says "for harboring or aiding international terrorist organizations).


----------



## Marauder06 (Jul 31, 2014)

Not all veterans support Israel?

http://www.havokjournal.com/world/notallveterans-not-all-veterans-support-israel


----------



## pardus (Jul 31, 2014)

To me the choice is clear, you either support Israel or you support genocide of the Jews.

That is not to say that every single thing Israel does is OK, but that is the bottom line.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Jul 31, 2014)

Nah. I personally feel close but not exactly the same as mentioned in the link Marauder threw up. I'm significantly more pro-israel than that account, but everything he did mention also pisses me off. Especially Isralie espionage.  Considering we'll either give, or sell, everything we make militarily as well as domestically to them, there's no fucking need for that.


----------



## Scotth (Aug 2, 2014)

pardus said:


> To me the choice is clear, you either support Israel or you support genocide of the Jews.



By what definition is the Jewish state in even remotely in danger?  They're a regional super power.  It's a much different world then it was in '67.

Like you I don't think Israel is excused for all of their actions nor do I think Hamas is anywhere near innocent as well.

Does anyone think a policy of "mowing the grass" is a long term solution either?

I was certainly pro-Israel prior to going to school.  I lived in apartment style dorms my first year in college and lived with a Palestinian in an enjoining apartment and he humanize the conflict for me.  I wasn't best buddies with the guy but we talked occasionally.  I asked him why they hated Americans.  He told me they didn't hate American's they hated American policy.  I could understand that point and my views changed that day.


----------



## AWP (Aug 2, 2014)

Something the "civilized" West has lost sight of is that in many parts of the world carrot/ stick relationships only work because you're willing to use a big stick. People everywhere understand the carrot, but in the West the carrot is our first option. Africa, the ME, parts of Asia don't respect your carrot unless the stick is there and used to great effect. Otherwise your carrot isn't humanitarian, it is a weakness.

If Israel stops now and produces a carrot Hamas and the rest learn that you provoke a war, hang on while the press chirps and squirms and attacks Israel, absorb some losses, and then gain concessions. (Sound familiar?) Israel shouldobliterate Hamas and then return with a juicy carrot. Gaza/ Hamas/ the Palestinians need to know the carrot has a step price and they can resolve this like adults or go on Jew-hating and take a stick upside their heads.

Or they'll just hang on until the press saves Hamas. One other thing we like in the West: deadlines.


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 2, 2014)

Scotth said:


> By what definition is the Jewish state in even remotely in danger?  They're a regional super power.  It's a much different world then it was in '67.
> 
> Like you I don't think Israel is excused for all of their actions nor do I think Hamas is anywhere near innocent as well.
> 
> ...


So celebrating the deaths of 3000+ Americans was their way of loving us?
How about being thankful for the Billions we've sent them?

I would have loved to chat with your buddy.

BTW- How'd he pay for school?


----------



## Scotth (Aug 2, 2014)

SOWT said:


> So celebrating the deaths of 3000+ Americans was their way of loving us?
> How about being thankful for the Billions we've sent them?
> 
> I would have loved to chat with your buddy.
> ...



Last time I checked their wasn't 8-9 Palestinian's on the planes that day but their where people from our supposed allied nations that we gave those billions to on those planes.

You can't paint everyone with the same brush.

His parents paid for his school.

I went to school with him in the late 80's and early 90's.  Did he shed a tear on 9/11, probably not.


----------



## pardus (Aug 2, 2014)

Scotth said:


> *By what definition is the Jewish state in even remotely in danger?*  They're a regional super power.  It's a much different world then it was in '67.
> 
> Like you I don't think Israel is excused for all of their actions nor do I think Hamas is anywhere near innocent as well.
> 
> ...



I know you're a smart guy so I'm going to assume you are trying to bait me rather than think you are ignorant to the fact that the countries surrounding Israel have standing policies that state the the destruction of Israel is state policy. 

Oh and maybe the constant rocket attacks might be a little bit of a threat, but hey that's not dangerous right?


----------



## pardus (Aug 2, 2014)

Scotth said:


> Did he shed a tear on 9/11, probably not.



Well I for one am certainly glad you chose a good role model to change your opinion regarding the existence of Israel.


----------



## Scotth (Aug 2, 2014)

pardus said:


> I know you're a smart guy so I'm going to assume you are trying to bait me rather than think you are ignorant to the fact that the countries surrounding Israel have standing policies that state the the destruction of Israel is state policy.
> 
> Oh and maybe the constant rocket attacks might be a little bit of a threat, but hey that's not dangerous right?



So what's worse?  Rhetoric or action.

So a country that has a policy of "mowing the lawn" on the region that they control totally.  A country that has attacked other sovereign countries in their region or people talking shit while getting their asses kicked?

None of that criticism justify Hamas but it also doesn't excuse Israel as well.


----------



## pardus (Aug 2, 2014)

Scotth said:


> So what's worse?  Rhetoric or action.
> 
> So a country that has a policy of "mowing the lawn" on the region that they control totally.  A country that has attacked other sovereign countries in their region or people talking shit while getting their asses kicked?
> 
> None of that criticism justify Hamas but it also doesn't excuse Israel as well.



Israel has been invaded with an express purpose of wiping it and the Jews of the map on what, 3 different occasions? '48 - '67 - '73.
Plus the constant terrorists attacks on it's sovereign soil. Israel has done nothing but defensive actions in it's history.
Wake up.

Hitler applauds your view, rejoice in that.


FYI, Not edited by pardus.


----------



## CQB (Aug 2, 2014)

Others have "mowed the lawn" as well. Algeria for example, Egypt recently, the west generally. Salafists do not like western ways. 

So a plague on both their houses then? In that case I'd say Israel is the lesser of two evils.


----------



## Scotth (Aug 3, 2014)

pardus said:


> Israel has been invaded with an express purpose of wiping it and the Jews of the map on what, 3 different occasions? '48 - '67 - '73.
> Plus the constant terrorists attacks on it's sovereign soil. Israel has done nothing but defensive actions in it's history.
> Wake up.
> 
> Hitler applauds your view, rejoice in that.



The world has changed a little in the last 40 years.


----------



## Chopstick (Aug 3, 2014)

Scotth said:


> The world has changed a little in the last 40 years.



 Check it at about 3:45.  Broad daylight, public street Miami, Florida, USA.   July 20, 2014.  Right after they point they start chanting for Jihad.  Fun times.


----------



## AWP (Aug 3, 2014)

Scotth said:


> The world has changed a little in the last 40 years.


 
No it hasn't. People are still people.


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 3, 2014)

Scotth said:


> So what's worse?  Rhetoric or action.
> 
> So a country that has a policy of "mowing the lawn" on the region that they control totally.  A country that has attacked other sovereign countries in their region or people talking shit while getting their asses kicked?
> 
> None of that criticism justify Hamas but it also doesn't excuse Israel as well.


How is Hamas getting rockets and arms if they totally control the region?


----------



## AWP (Aug 3, 2014)

I don't think some of the parties involved realize how stupid they sound.

June 2:
http://www.latimes.com/world/middleeast/la-fg-hamas-palestinian-government-20140602-story.html


> alestinian Authority President Mahmoud Abbas swore in a new interim government Monday following an agreement with his archrival, the Islamist Hamas movement, to *reunify their ranks* after seven years of division.
> Abbas said in a pre-recorded speech aired on official Palestinian TV after the swearing-in ceremony that the new government -- composed of 17 ministers *who do not belong to any political party*, including the incumbent prime minister, Rami Hamdallah -- will not be responsible for political negotiations but only for preparing for national elections and running daily life in the Palestinian areas.


 
July 8:
http://freebeacon.com/national-secu...mas-plays-any-role-in-palestinian-government/


> State Department spokeswoman Jen Psaki claimed again Tuesday that “no evidence” existed that the terrorist organization Hamas “plays any role” in the Palestinian government.
> ” Well, we have *no evidence that Hamas plays any role in the interim technocratic government*, and as far as we know, there have also been *no steps taken for the implementation of the reconciliation*,” Psaki said. “And obviously, as I mentioned yesterday, given the situation on the ground, it’s difficult to see how the reconciliation process can move forward in the current atmosphere.”


 
Today, Aug. 3:
http://www.nbcnews.com/#/meet-the-press/meet-press-transcript-august-3-2014-n171576


> RIYAD MANSOUR:
> *Hamas is part of the Palestinian political configuration*. The question is how to deal with that. *The first step is the national consensus government. Israel is trying to destroy this government. To destroy this government, it's pushing us back into divisions.* And allowing Hamas to have support from the Gaza Strip.
> The alternative is empower the national consensus government, allow the government of President Mahmoud Abbas to show the people in the Gaza Strip that it’s succeed in having peace and stopping the fighting and addressing the wounds of our people in Gaza, then in lifting the siege in Gaza, giving people hope.


 
So they are involved, but they aren't, but they are, and Israel is trying to divide the Palestinian gov't? How can it divide the gov't if Hamas isn't a part and Israel is attacking Hamas?

The Palestinians as a whole bear some blame in all of this. If the TX Guard pushed 2-3 miles into Mexico to deal with the border crisis and the US did nothing, could we be angry if Albuquerque or Miami were bombed? I mean, TX did that on its own, they aren't a part of the US gov't, right? The other 49 states have nothing to worry about. We wouldn't want the Palestinians to side with the Jews and attack their Muslim brothers, would we? Far easier, and convenient, to blame this on Israel.

Idiots.


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 3, 2014)

Scotth said:


> The world has changed a little in the last 40 years.



The world has changed.  Islam has not.


----------



## Worldweaver (Aug 3, 2014)

Scotth said:


> By what definition is the Jewish state in even remotely in danger?  They're a regional super power.  It's a much different world then it was in '67.
> 
> Like you I don't think Israel is excused for all of their actions nor do I think Hamas is anywhere near innocent as well.
> 
> ...



Do me a favor, watch the videos of the Palestinian's dancing and cheering in the streets on 9/11.  Then go read the Hamas charter that calls for the killing of every Jew...Hell, the Palestinian's have children shows that teach about martyrdom and the necessity of killing Jews.  

No I don't think they should be "mowing the grass", I think they should turn that shit heap into glass.


----------



## comrade-z (Aug 3, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> So they are involved, but they aren't, but they are, and Israel is trying to divide the Palestinian gov't? How can it divide the gov't if Hamas isn't a part and Israel is attacking Hamas?



This issue in particular tends to bother me, that Hamas conveniently is responsible for some of the things that happen in Gaza, but not others.  Like how they claim that they didn't give a *direct* order for the initial kidnappings of three Israeli kids, it was a rogue cell!  But they are totally ok with kidnapping as a tactic in many other circumstances.  Or that they give cells access to their rocket stores and rocket builders, but then when those cells fire into Israel during "peace" or ceasefires, Hamas claims they are part of a different group and that Hamas should not be held accountable.  I don't think these sorts of things are exactly what you meant, but it is what came to mind for me.



Worldweaver said:


> Do me a favor, watch the videos of the Palestinian's dancing and cheering in the streets on 9/11.  Then go read the Hamas charter that calls for the killing of every Jew...Hell, the Palestinian's have children shows that teach about martyrdom and the necessity of killing Jews.



Hamas occasionally tries to claim that the charter is just a piece of paper that cannot be changed for "internal reasons" (bullsh*t), but I agree that it is still relevant as their leadership still make such genocidal claims in their rhetoric and calls to action.  They say that it isn't a call to genocide since they say it should translate to zionists, instead of jews, but genocide is genocide regardless of the geographic limitations.

And yes Scotth, the world has changed.  Israel is a lot stronger, especially relatively to many of its neighbors than before.  But that doesn't mean Iran is weak, or that they feel they can rely on their "friend" Syria to stop the spread of this undead relic of a caliphate that has expressed desire to wipe them out, or that worsening anti-semitism in Europe and elsewhere won't reach Israel or incur hate against non-Israeli Jews (too late, unfortunately, for this last one).  So yeah, Israel does some dumb things, and some of those things are possibly unforgivable.  But Israel is fighting for its survival; it has its head above water, but land in this analogy comes when the list of countries that refuse to recognize Israel and/or its right to exist is empty.   Currently that list is 32 countries long.


----------



## Polar Bear (Aug 3, 2014)

Please could someone point out Palastine on a map? I can't seem to find it.


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 3, 2014)

It appears those "peace loving" people from Gaza were going to kill as many Jews as possible during Rosh Hashanah (sp?).

Why are we sending them money?

It seems to me that concrete could have been used to create infra-structure and not tunnels. 
Make no mistake, Bill Clinton and George W. Bush also have blood on their hands.

http://dailycaller.com/2014/07/27/s...rgartens/?utm_referrer=http://t.co/gfhiduoxVz


----------



## pardus (Aug 3, 2014)

SOWT said:


> It appears those "peace loving" people from Gaza were going to kill as many Jews as possible during Rosh Hashanah (sp?).
> 
> Why are we sending them money?
> 
> ...



WOW, thank fuck the Israelis got to the tunnels before that plan could be carried out. That would be a bloody disaster. 
Fucking Kerry is trying to stop Israel destroying the tunnels too? WTF is wrong with him?


----------



## AWP (Aug 3, 2014)

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/03/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1



> "We once again stress that Israel must do more to meet its own standards and avoid civilian casualties," spokeswoman Jen Psaki said in a written statement. "*The suspicion that militants are operating nearby does not justify strikes that put at risk the lives of so many innocent civilians.*"


 
I guess Jen's never heard of Iraq or Afghanistan... I know! Night raids! Those limit civilian casual...Oh, those are banned too? So, what's left? Oh, talk to them? That's right, a sternly worded letter will do the trick!

Gah!


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 3, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/03/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
> 
> 
> 
> ...



She ought to stick to hashtags and promoting her "smart, savvy, and fashionable" friends via State's official Twitter account.


----------



## Scotth (Aug 3, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> The world has changed.  Islam has not.



and what country is a threat to Israel's existence much less Gaza?

If anyone was interested in tangling with Israel they haven't had enough provocation in the last 4 decades to act?

Look at Egypt.  Everyone said with the turmoil there would spell disaster for Israel and they are working closer with Israel then any other middle east country.

Hamas, at least the military wing, are crazy.  They really can't be dealt with at this time but when your killing thousands of Palestinians do you think your making them weaker or stronger?


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 3, 2014)

Scotth said:


> and what country is a threat to Israel's existence much less Gaza?
> 
> If anyone was interested in tangling with Israel they haven't had enough provocation in the last 4 decades to act?
> 
> ...


Seriously?

The Muslim brotherhood allowed arms/ammo through Egypt into gaza, one of the many reasons the Egyptian Army booted their asses into jail cells.
Lot of tunnels from Egypt into Gaza while the Brotherhood was in power.


----------



## JHD (Aug 4, 2014)

Posted very recently on the Conservative Tribune.  

http://conservativetribune.com/no-point-negotiating-anymore/


----------



## Marauder06 (Aug 4, 2014)

Scotth said:


> and what country is a threat to Israel's existence much less Gaza?
> 
> If anyone was interested in tangling with Israel they haven't had enough provocation in the last 4 decades to act?
> 
> ...



Why are you bringing up countries, when I'm talking about ideology?

But OK fine.  Which countries are a threat to Israel's existence?  Iran, and every state that borders Israel. 

The only things that kept and keep Israel from getting wiped off the map and its inhabitants pushed into the sea is Israel's military might, and the backing of the US.  ALL of Israel's allies are a threat.  Egypt is less of a threat... for now... because a military coup pushed out the Islamic Brotherhood, the ideological grandfather of Hamas.  The current military junta is the ONLY thing that makes Egypt not a threat to Israel, and as we've seen, the political winds can change in an instant. 

We shouldn't confuse capacity with intent.  Most of Israel's neighbors would be quite happy if Israel were to cease to exist, and several of them are actively working to make that happen.  Whether Hamas is an "existential" threat to Israel or not is both debatable and completely irrelevant.  Hamas is a terrorist organization dedicated to the destruction of Israel and actively attempts to murder its citizens.  Israel SHOULD be targeting them.

With your last statement, you seem to be buying into the "we're creating more terrorists than we are killing" argument.  I haven't seen any credible research that supports that assertion, either in Gaza or anywhere else.


----------



## DA SWO (Aug 4, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> Why are you bringing up countries, when I'm talking about ideology?
> 
> But OK fine.  Which countries are a threat to Israel's existence?  Iran, and every state that borders Israel.
> 
> ...



Great points.
Ref The bold face part.

How would letting Hamas exist create fewer terrorists?

I'll answer it.  It won't Hamas would (will) continue to grow recruit new members until they no longer exist as an organization.


----------



## Scotth (Aug 4, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Seriously?
> 
> The Muslim brotherhood allowed arms/ammo through Egypt into gaza, one of the many reasons the Egyptian Army booted their asses into jail cells.
> Lot of tunnels from Egypt into Gaza while the Brotherhood was in power.



The point was about then and now and how we can overact and in the long term things can work out even if they don't look good to start out.


----------



## Scotth (Aug 4, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> Why are you bringing up countries, when I'm talking about ideology?
> 
> But OK fine.  Which countries are a threat to Israel's existence?  Iran, and every state that borders Israel.
> 
> ...



Thanks for your reasonable response and I enjoy a good debate.

While I agree with the majority of what you said it's kind of the point I was making.  No countries in the region will tangle with Israel because of their overwhelming military strength and the support of the US and at the end of the day if you push Israel into a corner your country would be turned into a large country of glass for your effort.  The only thing that threatens Israel at this point is the court of public opinion.

I completely agree with you on Egypt.  Who would have thought a peace deal made in the 70's would still be in place today.

Do I have a study that supports we are creating more terrorist in Gaza then we are killing?  I don't have a study but a half a century of history would support that assertion.  You can also look at what happened in Lebanon as another example of where you can't kill your way out of a problem.

Just for argument sake lets say Israel can kill off Hamas.  The death and destruction that would be needed to accomplish that, what does that look like?  What does a country, created because of genocide. say about the killing and destruction they heaped on others?  What happens in Gaza and who fills the void?

Does anyone envision Gaza running back to Fatah?  What takes Hamas place?


----------



## pardus (Aug 4, 2014)

Scotth said:


> Thanks for your reasonable response and I enjoy a good debate.
> 
> While I agree with the majority of what you said it's kind of the point I was making.  No countries in the region will tangle with Israel because of their overwhelming military strength and the support of the US and at the end of the day if you push Israel into a corner your country would be turned into a large country of glass for your effort.  The only thing that threatens Israel at this point is the court of public opinion.
> 
> ...



*My Moderator hat is well and truly off, I want to make that very clear.*

So killing terrorists is "genocide" is it? Your own country is guilty too if that's the case, unless of course you just want to admit you are being selective and that you are anti Jewish. 

Not reasonable in your opinion? Tough. Frankly your point of view sickens me.


----------



## Scotth (Aug 5, 2014)

pardus said:


> *My Moderator hat is well and truly off, I want to make that very clear.*
> 
> So killing terrorists is "genocide" is it? Your own country is guilty too if that's the case, unless of course you just want to admit you are being selective and that you are anti Jewish.
> 
> Not reasonable in your opinion? Tough. Frankly your point of view sickens me.




Being a moderator shouldn't remove you from debate.  If you want to suspend my account, not that I thought you or any other moderator were considering this, would be an issue.  Disagreeing I would hope would always be fully acceptable.

Having said that.  I would disagree that everyone killed was a terrorist and at best 70% are civilian by most estimates.  While I understand urban combat and innocent causalities will happen, how many times do you have to bomb a UN facility before you say WTF?

Criticizing Israel policy doesn't make you anti Jewish, that is a very simplistic argument that hold no water.  Just like criticizing Israel doesn't mean we don't think Israel has a right to exist.  Things tend to be a little more complicated then that. 

How do you see this things ending?  Do you think this thing ends with Israel exterminating the Palestinians?


----------



## Worldweaver (Aug 5, 2014)

Scotth said:


> Thanks for your reasonable response and I enjoy a good debate.
> 
> Do I have a study that supports we are creating more terrorist in Gaza then we are killing?  I don't have a study but a half a century of history would support that assertion.  You can also look at what happened in Lebanon as another example of where you can't kill your way out of a problem.
> 
> ...



First, the idea that the U.S, Israel, or any other Nation "creates terrorists" is ridiculous to me.  I understand it in theory, and it would seem to make sense, except that these factions are created and bent on our destruction independent of what "we" or Israel do.  A large portion of these individuals cannot read or write, they sell their lives cheap because they have no real opportunity or alternative.  They do whatever their "leaders"  tell them because...well, they're fucking illiterate, inbred dirt-farmers.  They are raised and indoctrinated to hate Israel.  If Israel decides that their bombing has too great an impact on the "civilian" (what a fucking joke) population, it won't matter.  Religious fundamentalists are bent on the destruction of Israel, PERIOD. 

If Israel kills off Hamas then something (insert another fuck-face faction) will spring up to "kill the Zionists", at that point Israel can spend the next thirty years eradicating  those fools too.  

My hope is that "the Zionists" continue their bombing campaign at their leisure.  If Hamas, Islamic Jihad, or any other terrorists organization decides to hide weapons or dig tunnels under a school, make a mass grave out of it.  If they decide that hospitals or UN shelters are a fun spot to launch rockets from, hello...another fucking barbecue in the city tonight.  These organizations are being supported and hidden by the "civilian" population, who receive cement and materials for schools...ah, fuck it, build tunnels instead.   If you lobe rockets over a wall expect to be met with them in return, and if you and your elected terrorist officials plan of action is to cry and whine to the International community and pray for Muhammed to return with his flaming sword, then pucker up buttercup.  

Play stupid games, win stupid prizes.


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## DA SWO (Aug 5, 2014)

Scotth said:


> Being a moderator shouldn't remove you from debate.  If you want to suspend my account, not that I thought you or any other moderator were considering this, would be an issue.  Disagreeing I would hope would always be fully acceptable.
> 
> Having said that.  I would disagree that everyone killed was a terrorist and at best 70% are civilian by most estimates.  While I understand urban combat and innocent causalities will happen, how many times do you have to bomb a UN facility before you say WTF?
> 
> ...


Those UN facilities were used as weapons storage depots.
When discovered, the Un gave the weapons to hamas instead of destroying them.
That makes those facilities a legitimate target.


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## Centermass (Aug 5, 2014)

Scotth said:


> Being a moderator shouldn't remove you from debate.  If you want to suspend my account, not that I thought you or any other moderator were considering this, would be an issue.  Disagreeing I would hope would always be fully acceptable.
> 
> Having said that.  I would disagree that everyone killed was a terrorist and at best 70% are civilian by most estimates.  While I understand urban combat and innocent causalities will happen, how many times do you have to bomb a UN facility before you say WTF?
> 
> ...



Geez Scott,

1. Grow up. You're a decent debater. No ones going to kill you off for your POV.

2. Get your facts straight before you throw a blanket comment out there. (Which is the exact kind of rhetoric un informed individuals all over are falling for)

We all know (As does Israel) what it can engage and what it cannot. It also knows when it can engage what it could not. Hidden caches of rockets have been discovered at three U.N. schools in Gaza since the conflict began, and the refugee agency has accused unnamed groups of putting civilians at risk. Not to mention 100's of other locations putting civilians at risk. But remember, according to Hilary, the only reason they do that is because Gaza is so small and they don't really have any place else to put them.....(I about fell out of my fucking chair when I listened to her actually state this) Cowards hide behind non combatants and sacred sites and score a win win whenever they do so and are then attacked.

How? HAMAS knows it doesn't have a chance in hell going against Israel head to head. So, how is it really waging its war? Through the MEDIA. And so far, they're kicking ass and taking names. If you think terrorists only fight in a one dimensional train of thought  (Just kill everyone and that's it) they learned the play book of how things play out in the court of public opinion back when the bush began to burn.....

Not to mention, it's also here. Bibi doesn't doesn't care about appeasing our president, who BTW, hasn't got a clue when it comes to the hard line of survival, day in and day out when everyone on all sides in their region wants them exterminated and has since their existence. So, then you get the mantra of "Big bad Israel is picking on our president" train of thought, because Netanyahu isn't going to take any shit when it comes to the survival of his country. Hollywood goes ballistic first and the rest of the brainless population (Including members of congress) do as well.

Arrogant? You're damn right he is. Within reason? Given the current scope and situation - absolutely. I'd go even further to say "determined" is a better term. 

Proper knowledge and information have nothing to do with this. It's how things are perceived rather than reality. And unfortunately, whatever's popular nowadays, is what the che gevara generation will line up with. It's always hip to be with the "in" crowd.


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## pardus (Aug 5, 2014)

Scotth said:


> Being a moderator shouldn't remove you from debate.  If you want to suspend my account, not that I thought you or any other moderator were considering this, would be an issue.  Disagreeing I would hope would always be fully acceptable.
> 
> Having said that.  I would disagree that everyone killed was a terrorist and at best 70% are civilian by most estimates.  While I understand urban combat and innocent causalities will happen, how many times do you have to bomb a UN facility before you say WTF?
> 
> ...



Disagreeing and debate are always welcomed here, but in light of my previous post that was edited, I wanted to make it perfectly clear that I'm speaking as an individual and not as a moderator.  

Yes civilians are being killed, that sucks but it happens. Israel is going to ridiculous lengths to ensure this doesn't happen, further than anyone including us has ever gone before, and what thanks do they get for that? Do you think Hamas is acting in kind?
Fuck the UN, they are as guilty as anybody, and as others have stated, their facilities are being used by the terrorists thus making them legitimate targets. 
Criticizing Israeli policy that defends them against slaughter is hard to see as anything but someone advocating another genocide of the Jews. Is that what you want? Because that's what your terrorist apologist views will lead to in short order. 
Israel is too constrained by world opinion and it's own humanitarian views to wipe out the Palestinians, like I said earlier, Israel should have pushed them out of Gaza years ago. 

Why is it that people like you can't see that this is being perpetrated by terrorists, terrorists who continue to kill and  attack, and your solution is for the attacked and threatened to roll over because they are stronger?


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## AWP (Aug 5, 2014)

Well, Israel has admitted failure, it just needs an aircraft carrier instead of Twitter...

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/05/world/meast/mideast-crisis/index.html?hpt=hp_t2



> "Mission accomplished," the Israel Defense Forces (IDF) said on Twitter. "We have dismantled the underground terror network built by Hamas to infiltrate and attack Israel." The military said 32 tunnels were destroyed in the four-week conflict.


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## CQB (Aug 5, 2014)

I think it's the Hamas spokesmans' opinion that Israel failed. When you've had an attack thwarted, materiel confiscated etc. in my opinion Hamas failed.


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## Grunt (Aug 5, 2014)

CQB said:


> I think it's the Hamas spokesmans' opinion that Israel failed. When you've had an attack thwarted, materiel confiscated etc. in my opinion Hamas failed.


 
I agree. But, in their way of thinking...they still exist...so they are still winning. The made Israel expend time, money, and lives while still being unable to eradicate them.

Hamas is winning...just ask them.

With them it isn't necessarily numbers...but, a mindset.


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## CQB (Aug 5, 2014)

I'm reminded now and then of the Irish. From 1968-98 they were at each other's throats, they decided to put that behind them and move on which brought both north & south a new prosperity. What if one day Palestine woke up and realised they lost years ago.
But Hamas will continue to try, Israel will continue to defend. Until Hamas tears up its charter it will continue as before. They're too busy being supremacist idiots to consider the welfare of their people.


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## Chopstick (Aug 5, 2014)

http://www.ndtv.com/article/world/ndtv-exclusive-how-hamas-assembles-and-fires-rockets-571033

The video with the story is worth watching.



> *Gaza: * In the minutes before the ceasefire kicked in at Gaza this morning,  Hamas fired a flurry of rockets towards Israel - 30 according to some counts.
> 
> Israel has argued that that these rockets are fired from civilian areas, and this is why its retaliatory strikes can result in civilian casualties.
> 
> But this morning, NDTV witnessed one such rocket silo being created under a tent right next to the hotel where our team was staying.  Minutes later, we saw the rocket being fired, just before the 72-hour ceasefire came into effect.


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## Rapid (Aug 5, 2014)

I don't know how to put this in a nice way, but our citizens (and I mean especially in Europe), the 'masses', are -- by and large -- fucking 'tards. They don't grasp issues such as cause and effect. All they see are 'civilians' being killed. Forget the fact that a large portion of those 'civilian' casualty figures are actually Hamas fighters (though our media would never doubt reports supplied to them by Gaza's pro-Hamas medical authorities) -- as evidenced by the statistically disproportionate amount of fighting age males within the casualties. Or the fact that Hamas pulled this same trick last time, only to have later been forced to admit that many of the civilian casualties were actually their fighters. And let's not mention that a lot of those civilians are sympathetic to the Hamas cause (essentially being enablers, willing to be martyred). Nope, they're just 100% innocent civilians being killed; my god, that's horrible, how could Israel be so indiscriminate in killing so many innocent people?!


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## Chopstick (Aug 5, 2014)

I found this video rather entertaining.


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## Marauder06 (Aug 5, 2014)




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## pardus (Aug 6, 2014)

Very well done ^

I just don't know why people don't understand this simple truth. 
When I see the propaganda and false anger coming coming from the terrorist side i just roll my eyes at how simplistic and juvenile their psychological methods are... Then I look around and see people buying into it, and frankly it stuns me, stuns me and makes me realise that we are on the tipping point as a society (Western) of failure. 
We either stand up to terrorism and it's supporters or say goodbye to the freedom we currently have.


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## Rapid (Aug 6, 2014)

pardus said:


> Very well done ^
> 
> I just don't know why people don't understand this simple truth.
> When I see the propaganda and false anger coming coming from the terrorist side i just roll my eyes at how simplistic and juvenile their psychological methods are... Then I look around and see people buying into it, and frankly it stuns me, stuns me and makes me realise that we are on the tipping point as a society (Western) of failure.
> We either stand up to terrorism and it's supporters or say goodbye to the freedom we currently have.



Honestly, I don't think it'll get better from here on. Only worse.

Anyone want to start a fund to create an artificial island somewhere and start a new country -- invitation only?


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## AWP (Aug 6, 2014)

Rapid said:


> Anyone want to start a fund to create an artificial island somewhere and start a new country -- invitation only?


 
Only if I have oversight of the press.


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## pardus (Aug 6, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> Only if I have oversight of the press.



Does oversight mean absolute power,/die in a fire for retarded articles? Yes? It's yours.


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## AWP (Aug 6, 2014)

pardus said:


> Does oversight mean absolute power,/die in a fire for retarded articles? Yes? It's yours.


 
At $29.99 a pop the island will soon pay for itself.


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## CQB (Aug 9, 2014)

So imagine you're in Berlin in 1944 working as a newspaper reporter. You report that there's intermittant power, you are being attacked & your borders are looking shakey. There is limited power due to the bombings which are also creating firestorms. By not too big a stretch of the imagination Churchill, Roosevelt, Bomber Harris ect. would be classes as war criminals. Because Hitler was a victim doesn't mean he and his regime deserved any less.


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## pardus (Aug 9, 2014)

CQB said:


> So imagine you're in Berlin in 1944 working as a newspaper reporter. You report that there's intermittant power, you are being attacked & your borders are looking shakey. There is limited power due to the bombings which are also creating firestorms. By not too big a stretch of the imagination Churchill, Roosevelt, Bomber Harris ect. would be classes as war criminals. Because Hitler was a victim doesn't mean he and his regime deserved any less.



I bet you wouldn't write another article after that! 

Define "regime".


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## CQB (Aug 10, 2014)

Off topic! 

Seriously, imagine at that time any Brit, including our mythic reporter to, for gods sake, plead to the world to stop the bombing of Germany. The stance would be if they're losing they must be victims, similar to the support Ham Ass is receiving, now.
Where's the outrage against IS from the Christian west?


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## BloodStripe (Aug 11, 2014)

pardus said:


> To me the choice is clear, you either support Israel or you support genocide of the Jews.
> 
> That is not to say that every single thing Israel does is OK, but that is the bottom line.



http://www.inquisitr.com/1399084/th...of-violent-jew-hate-in-europe-special-report/


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## BloodStripe (Aug 11, 2014)

http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=869

Interesting read that I found written by a Palestinian, who was like at least 20% of Americans enamored with Obama during election cycles and towards the end are left feeling disappointed in the job performance. 

Given the recent IDF shooting of an 11 year old in the West Bank, I assume there will be more violence coming from the West Bank now after it has been quiet during much of the recent Gaza confrontation. This is now the third West Bank person shot in four days.


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## DA SWO (Aug 11, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://www.pij.org/details.php?id=869
> 
> Interesting read that I found written by a Palestinian, who was like at least 20% of Americans enamored with Obama during election cycles and towards the end are left feeling disappointed in the job performance.
> 
> Given the recent IDF shooting of an 11 year old in the West Bank, I assume there will be more violence coming from the West Bank now after it has been quiet during much of the recent Gaza confrontation. This is now the third West Bank person shot in four days.


If the "kid" was 18 years old, would it be newsworthy?


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## BloodStripe (Aug 11, 2014)

SOWT said:


> If the "kid" was 18 years old, would it be newsworthy?



In that region, yes. Any DA the IDF makes in the West Bank is very unpopular with the residents there. The second the IDF leaves the West Bank many predict it would result in tunnels being built in to Israel. 

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-4533293,00.html

http://www.jpost.com/Diplomacy-and-...ror-tunnels-leading-into-our-heartland-370222


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## pardus (Aug 11, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> http://www.inquisitr.com/1399084/th...of-violent-jew-hate-in-europe-special-report/



No surprise at all. Europe has never stopped being anti-Semetic. Given half the chance Europeans would herd Jews back into camps tomorrow. Just look who funded Yasser Arafat and his terrorist buddies for so long. I haven't looked but I wouldn't be surprised if the EU was funding Hamas etc... now too.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 23, 2014)

[/QUOTE]The deaths of the two suspects, identified by the Israeli military as well-known Hamas militants, ended one of the largest manhunts conducted by the Israeli security forces.

Eyal Yifrah, 19, Gilad Shaar, 16, and Naftali Fraenkel, a 16-year-old with dual Israeli-American citizenship, were abducted on June 12 while hitchhiking home in the West Bank and killed soon afterward.

The teens' abduction and slaying prompted a large Israeli crackdown on the Islamic militant Hamas group and set off a chain of events that led to a 50-day war between Israel and Hamas in the Gaza Strip.

In an operation codenamed "Brother's Keeper," Israel dispatched thousands of troops across the West Bank in search of the youths, closed roads in the Hebron area and arrested hundreds of Hamas operatives throughout the territory.

The search ended July 1, when the bodies were found under a pile of rocks in a field north of the West Bank city of Hebron. Officials later said it was believed the three had been killed shortly after the abduction.

 View gallery 


FILE - This undated file image released by the Israel Defense Forces shows a combination of three ph …
Israeli forces had been pursuing the suspects, Amer Abu Aisheh and Marwan Qawasmeh, since the abductions, said Lt. Col. Peter Lerner, an Israeli army spokesman.

Lerner told reporters that there was a recent breakthrough in the search that led the Yamam, a special police counter- terrorism unit, to the hideout in an area of Hebron about a week ago.

Early on Tuesday, the Israeli special forces entered the ground floor of the two-story building and killed two Hamas operatives after coming under fire, Lerner said.

The military believes both men were killed, though troops confirmed the killing of only one suspect. Lerner said the second suspect fell backward in a hail of fire and is presumed dead, though the body has not yet been recovered.

Lerner noted the two men had been identified as the suspects early in the search, their Hamas connections were well known, and Hamas has repeatedly tried to abduct Israeli civilians and soldiers. Another three members of one the Qawasmeh family were arrested, he said.

"We were determined in bringing the ruthless murderers of Gilad, Eyal and Naftali to justice," Lerner said. "Today's successful mission brings the long-term search to an end, and the perpetrators of the crime no longer pose a threat to Israeli civilians," he said.

In Qatar, Hussam Badran, a spokesman for top Hamas leader Khaled Mashaal, praised the two militants on his Twitter account. "The martyrdom of Marwan Qawasmeh and Amer Abu Aisheh came after a long life full of jihad sacrifice and giving. This is the path of resistance, which we all are moving in," he said.

Hamas denied involvement for weeks after the teens were abducted. However, during the Israel-Hamas war, an exiled Hamas leader responsible for West Bank operations acknowledged his group had been responsible for the abduction and killing of the teenagers.

In the days leading up to the start of the Gaza war in early July, a Palestinian youth was also abducted and killed in east Jerusalem by Israeli extremists in an apparent revenge attack over the teens' slaying.
[/QUOTE]

http://news.yahoo.com/2-suspects-abduction-israeli-teens-killed-050353816.html


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## DA SWO (Oct 9, 2014)

Interesting story about Hamas evolving and changing their tactics.

https://medium.com/war-is-boring/hamas-battle-tactics-are-getting-better-940415d29b38


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## CQB (Oct 13, 2014)

Primus gladium et scutum. It always has been thus.


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## Shredder477 (Dec 18, 2014)

I realize the EU as always been rather antisemitic.. Still crazy as shit IMO.

http://time.com/3637355/european-union-hamas-terrorist-list/


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## pardus (Dec 18, 2014)

Shredder477 said:


> I realize the EU as always been rather antisemitic.. Still crazy as shit IMO.
> 
> http://time.com/3637355/european-union-hamas-terrorist-list/



I can't say I'm surprised. I guess they feel they didn't finish the job in WWII. Maybe they'll wake up once they have a full blown Jihadist insurgency on their hands.


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## CQB (Dec 18, 2014)

Things may change when Palestine has their next election....hang on a minute.


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