# Full auto carbines and law enforcement.



## 8'Duece (Jul 21, 2008)

This was one of the best threads on another site. What I'm asking is that both SOF soldiers and Law enforcement answer some tough questions regarding the use of "full auto" in the law enforcement community. 

1. What is the need for FA in urban law enforcement ?

2. If you are using an "FA" carbine, AR15, then how much training have you had with the use of "FA" and what ROE with "FA" does your department have ?

3. How much training on "FA" is enough ? One course of instruction ? two, three, and who is training you to use a weapon on "FA" 

4. Given that the SFAUC only instructs it's students in "SEMI AUTO" type of fire, what justification do law enforcement officers and SWAT have to use and outdated firing method ?

   Heres' the method of fire used by the professional soldiers in the SOF community and straight from the SFAUC manual of CQB type of fire.  

    1. Slow aimed fire.
    2. Controlled Pairs.
    3. Double Taps.
    4. Hammers. 

What say you ??


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## SgtUSMC8541 (Jul 21, 2008)

Hell, most cops I know that carry M16/4 type rifles in their cars have had MINIMAL amount of any training on it.  So giving them a FA system to me sounds like a bad idea.   When they taught us in sniper school..... number of rounds down range dont mean shit, amount of steel on target does.


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## 8'Duece (Jul 21, 2008)

Here's where I'm trying to go with this. 

1. Who in any law enforcement capacity it trained well enough to use "FA" fire in a semi permissive envirenment with any if little accuracy ? 

2. What about indiscrimantory rounds ? Collateral damage ? liability ?

3. How many real world scenarios have law enforcement officers encounted where they've had to _break contact or lay out supppressive fire_?

4. Anybody watch "Dallas SWAT?" .......................notice they use full auto and expend two 30 round mags ? Why ? What purpose ? are they fully trained beyond that of SOF forces and is their something they know that the SOF forces and DELTA do not ?

5. What is the ROE on a fully automatic fireing method ?


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 21, 2008)

SgtUSMC8541 said:


> Hell, most cops I know that carry M16/4 type rifles in their cars have had MINIMAL amount of any training on it.  So giving them a FA system to me sounds like a bad idea.   When they taught us in sniper school..... number of rounds down range dont mean shit, amount of steel on target does.




The start of LEO's carrying 'Patrol Rifles and/or Carbines, in most jurisdictions started with the acceptance of female and smaller LEOs into the Profession.

They couldn't handle the 12 GA shotgun's recoil, etc. Many times, the accepted Carbine used the same ammo as the agencies pistol, which was 9 MM at  that time. Most of these 9MM Carbines didn't do the job needed.

My agency pushed the H&K 94 Semi-Auto version of the MP-5. Of course, this weapon was no longer available from H&K in a short time. It was expensive as well.

http://www.remtek.com/arms/hk/civ/94/94.htm

In view of the poor showing of the 9MM and other pistol ammo, most agencies and/or LEOs opted for the 5.56 round and carbines and rifles that handled that ammo. Usually, the Colt AR-15 or CAR-15.

After some of the 'school' hostage situations, especially the one in Colorado, LE agencies had to re-think the idea of first LEO responders waiting for SWAT, etc. and it's weapons and tactics.

So the need for first LE responders (Patrol) officers to be armed with semi-auto carbines and/or rifles was developed as well as trainng for these first responders, to work as a team and use SWAT type tactics, until the regular SWAT team could take over as needed. Most currant LE agencies Patrol units are now equipped with 5.56 semi-auto carbines and rifles and have practiced  and trained to act as a team when needed. (Hostage situation, where action is needed ASAP.)

Most Carbines and Rifles used by LEO's are purchased by the individual LEO, who can not normally purchase a full-auto version of that rifles or carbine, they are under the same restrictions as the average citizen. Some agencies provide a list of authorized 'Patrol" rifles and Carbines that an LEO may purchase and/or carry in their patrol vehicle. They will sign of on a LE discount on them as well.

Of course, LE Departments can and does purchase fully automatic weapons. I know of no major department, that issues full-auto weapons to individual LEOs to carry in their patrol car, nor IMO should there be any reason for such a thing to happen. It's pretty easy to break into a trunk, particularly, where police vehicles are taken home and parked in driveways, etc. 

The only use of full-auto weapons, should be by LEO SWAT teams, trained in there use. All other weapons used by LEO's should be and usually are semi-auto weapons.


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## Rabid Badger (Jul 21, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> Here's where I'm trying to go with this.
> 
> 1. Who in any law enforcement capacity it trained well enough to use "FA" fire in a semi permissive envirenment with any if little accuracy ?
> 
> ...



DAMN TRIP...AND WHILE YOU WERE TYPING THAT I WAS TYPING THIS.....

I think you'll find very few LEA's train full auto. Not so much for liability sake but for rounds on target....not to mention.....they don't train on longgun much except for SWAT....hate to say it but the only time they touch that M4 is to turn it in at the end of shift...

FA these days is for hot-dogs and crew served weapons...

We never trained FA, doesn't mean it's not trainable, it's just that carrying about 2 basic loads of ammo goin in would be expended in about 2 minutes and you'd be calling for exfil...:uhh:

Good answers here as well:

http://www.city-data.com/forum/history/326668-why-no-full-auto-m16.html

and this:



> The M16 simply perpetuated the mistakes of the past, except that it was now worse. Now every gun had a "go faster switch" and fire discipline became a thing of the past. I still remember the TV coverage of the battle of Hue with the rifleman sticking his M16 over the parapet by the pistol grip and firing a full magazine without the slightest idea of what he was shooting at. What a waste! *Tactics were going the way of the "Do-Do Bird"* and everyone was marveling at the number of rounds that the average rifleman was able to fire against our enemy(s), although I began to suspect that our real enemy resided in the Defense Department in the name of Robert McNamara, and leadership in the Military by individuals who hadn't seen combat since the charge up San Juan Hill.


from here:

http://www.jouster.com/articles30m1/M16part2.html


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 21, 2008)

> 82ndtrooper;185545]Here's where I'm trying to go with this.





> 1. Who in any law enforcement capacity it trained well enough to use "FA" fire in a semi permissive envirenment with any if little accuracy ?



SWAT teams, who have been trained, with FA weapons.



> 2. What about indiscrimantory rounds ? Collateral damage ? liability ?



The use of FA fire, in a LE situation is pretty limited; however, SWAT teams may be the first responders to a terrorist attack or other situations where the need for FA fire is called for. Yes, any use of a firearm will be examined and judged by an agencies firearms review board, as will as the courts, etc.



> 3. How many real world scenarios have law enforcement officers encounted where they've had to _break contact or lay out suppressive fire_?



I doubt that it would be used by LEO SWAT teams very often; however, I could see the need for 'suppressive' fire to aid movement, etc.



> 4. Anybody watch "Dallas SWAT?" .......................notice they use full auto and expend two 30 round mags ? Why ? What purpose ? are they fully trained beyond that of SOF forces and is their something they know that the SOF forces and DELTA do not ?



I have only watched it a couple of times. I wasn't impressed. I have no clue why one would have to expend two 30 rd Mags. But then it is Texas  ... right? ;) :uhh:



> 5. What is the ROE on a fully automatic fireing method ?



I would think in the case of LE agencies each one would have their own ROE and firearms policies. Such things, are usually based on the FBI's standards and teachings. I don't recall any ROE for "a fully automatic fireing method" in my military units either.  Did you have one in the 82nd??


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## pardus (Jul 21, 2008)

I was trained to fire FA on my lead scouts course (first mag when ambushed/very close contact) and was instructed to fire FA by the SAS in urban room clearing type drills with MP5s.

It's use is _very_ limited but it has it's place.

:2c:


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## 8'Duece (Jul 21, 2008)

TW,

I don't remember any ROE, especially for full auto M16A1's. 

When we did recieve the M16A2 with a three round burst button, we did actually have some training on three round bursts at single targets with emphasis on ammo conservation.  My first wake up call to what full auto was not, and what controlled burst where. Target to target, preferably on single fire and double taps. 

My reason for the thread is that our city PD just recieved full auto's from the DoD and every single officer is now all giddy about the advent of having the "fun button" on their new shiny rifle. :uhh:  I might add that none of our officers are military veterans with the exception of one that was with a ANG unit that was an MP unit. 

Good points thus far. Thanks.


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 21, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> TW,
> 
> I don't remember any ROE, especially for full auto M16A1's.
> 
> ...



Two points here.:

As I stated in my first post on the subject. I do not condone the issuing of full-auto weapons for the general use of LEO's, except those especially trained in there use as well as the training in the tactics, to properly use them. In other words, a a highly trained SWAT Team. No exceptions!

The Chief of Police that allows for all his people to be issued  FA weapons, is asking for and no doubt will get some major incidents and many legal problems, in the VERY near future! :doh:

2nd Point:

During my time in the WAANG (Air Guard) They made me an 'AP' because they didn't know what to do with an Infantry type. The Air Police, at that time were supposed to use basic Infantry weapons in base defense, etc. So I guess they were right. So, isn't that AF 'MP' a Military Veteran??


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## Rabid Badger (Jul 21, 2008)

Deuce: Next time you got to the range...drop down in the prone and time yourself with both firing methods.....FA and prone supported or unsupported.

Engage a silh at 25 tards with both......

except in the prone on semi, squeeze as fast as you can and adjust the recoil back on target. 

As you count the shots after the shoots with both methods, you'll see why full auto is not the preferred rounds on target method, guaranteed.

Youll also find that the timing is not that much different.

Barnhardt X2 was the learning curve.... :uhh:


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## 8'Duece (Jul 21, 2008)

Trip_Wire said:


> Two points here.:
> 
> As I stated in my first post on the subject. I do not condone the issuing of full-auto weapons for the general use of LEO's, except those especially trained in there use as well as the training in the tactics, to properly use them. In other words, a a highly trained SWAT Team. No exceptions!
> 
> ...




On your first point. I agree, highly trained SWAT units only, but just how highly trained are SWAT units these day's when I see "Dallas SWAT" rock n rolling in full auto through two 30 round mags ? Who have they been trained by ? What prior experience do our SWAT team members actually have, other than on a static range flat range ?  If a SWAT team member expends 5-7 rounds on full auto how many grains of lead is he throwing at a particular target ? If I used one shot from a 12 gauge of OO buck how many grains of lead am I throwing at one target, with minimal chance of collateral damage ?  What empoyment of either weapon system is best ?  I would like to think I know the answer to that question, but I've not served on a SWAT team. If my department is going spend boo koo bucko's on fancy rifles, I'd hope they have enough sense to spend boo koo bucko's on training from the right people. Paul Howe, Larry Vickers, Jim Smith, Trident Concepts ? 

If one of officers does employ his or her rifle in the full auto function and my son is injured or killed, then I'm going to demand training records for the officer in question ?  What is their skill level? how was it obtained? what is their ROE regarding the use of full auto? and who has trained them and how often has that particular officer trained with the weapon system ?  As of right now, I'm afraid my department would have a hard time coming up with anything more than one day at a range with a ANG guy having been the designated firearms marksmenship instructor. 

On your second point.   I was not trying to diss the ANG individual about his prior service, however I highly doubt that he's any more qaulified than me to employ the use of full auto with an AR15 rifle.  Not that I'm a high speed low drag dude type, but I'm not a newbie to the weapon systems that our department is about to start carrying along with the shotgun in their crusiers. I might even be so bold as to say that I could probably teach most them how to actually employ the weapon system. I don't think they even know how to zero their irons at this point. 

Just some more thoughts.


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## 8'Duece (Jul 21, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> Deuce: Next time you got to the range...drop down in the prone and time yourself with both firing methods.....FA and prone supported or unsupported.
> 
> Engage a silh at 25 tards with both......
> 
> ...




I don't even think I have to actually do it to see the results that you've described.  I have no doubt. ;):cool:


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## Ajax (Jul 21, 2008)

I don't have any LE experience, unless you count "peace keeping", but from the SOF side, I use FA for two things:  1. Suppressive fire in a peel  2.  Check my shooting stance at the range.  If I get rocked back on my heels, I'm not doing it right.  Can't think of a practical app on the streets (unless we're talking about Haifa St or Chicken St )


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## 8'Duece (Jul 21, 2008)

Ajax said:


> I don't have any LE experience, unless you count "peace keeping", but from the SOF side, I use FA for two things:  1. Suppressive fire in a peel  2.  Check my shooting stance at the range.  If I get rocked back on my heels, I'm not doing it right.  Can't think of a practical app on the streets (unless we're talking about Haifa St or Chicken St )



I'm glad you mentioned the "Center Peel" But, I can't see any scenario that law enforcement would employ a _peel._


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## Polar Bear (Jul 21, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> I'm glad you mentioned the "Center Peel" But, I can't see any scenario that law enforcement would employ a _peel._


 
Have to say it...to the Donut Shop


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## 8'Duece (Jul 21, 2008)

Polar Bear said:


> Have to say it...to the Donut Shop



Already training ? ;)


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## Cabbage Head (Jul 21, 2008)

Polar Bear said:


> Have to say it...to the Donut Shop




And that would be a tactical peal.

Ok, from the LE side of things I agree that FA is not for the patrol types.  I have trained some of our officers in rifle marksmanship.  I found that some take it serious and others not so.  Some retain what they learn and others forget how to operate the charging handle and bolt catch just to clear out the rifle and show an empty chamber.

To trust those with a FA rifle would lead to trouble and liability issues. I dont see my PD giving us the time/training/ammo to keep us in the levels of proficiency and confidence in FA fire.

For the SRT team, we have FA's on most of our weapons.  A mixed bag of m16/M4/MP5/G36's.  Some of us have been to training on FA fire but, most have not.   

I feel there is a place for it but, for most of LE work it is not necessary.


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 21, 2008)

> 82ndtrooper;185604]On your first point. I agree, highly trained SWAT units only, but just how highly trained are SWAT units these day's when I see "Dallas SWAT" rock n rolling in full auto through two 30 round mags ?



I think I covered that, in my last! TEXAS! 



> Who have they been trained by ? What prior experience do our SWAT team members actually have, other than on a static range flat range ?



In this State as is in many other States, the basic SWAT course is controlled  by that State. As I recall, the training curriculum and standards were set up by the FBI.

Usually, agents from the local office's SWAT team monitor the course and some time provide instructors. They also use selected people, from major LE agencies SWAT teams in the State as instructors. (State Patrol, Seattle Police PD and King County Sheriff.)

Their are two SWAT classes, Basic and Advanced. The courses are conducted on Ft. Lewis, WA and many different types of ranges, are used depending on the weapon being fired and the type of training being conducted. There is also a special course for snipers.

My old SWAT team, as well as most others in our State, train as a team regularly, in both weapons and tactics, to include fast roping from the departments Chopper. In a recent training exercise, my old team fast roped on to a moving State Ferry out in Puget Sound.

In the selection process, the SWAT Team commander, try's to pick people from Military Special Operations units, such as SEALs, SF, Rangers and both Airborne  and Infantry combat veterans. I think there are at least two SEALs, two Rangers and and SF guy or two on my old team. Many are in the Reserve, NG, etc. and have been deployed a few times to the GWOT. I think most major LE agencies do this in selection.



> If a SWAT team member expends 5-7 rounds on full auto how many grains of lead is he throwing at a particular target ? If I used one shot from a 12 gauge of OO buck how many grains of lead am I throwing at one target, with minimal chance of collateral damage ?



Most of the FA weapons on my old team were fixed with the 3 rd burst selector. So, 5 — 7 Rds, Isn't a big factor. As I pointed out not much need for more than a 3 Rd burst. Exception? Suppressive fire to cover team movement or rescue wounded, etc.

Shot guns in SWAT teams are used more for entry tools, and firing ferret (CS Rds.) It is also one of the weapons in the entry team for close up work.



> What empoyment of either weapon system is best ?  I would like to think I know the answer to that question, but I've not served on a SWAT team. Food for thought kinda thing.



Most teams, use either MP-5's or M-4 Carbines now days, for there entry teams along with at least one semi-auto shotgun. I think the M-4s are now more popular with most teams, because of Bad Guy body armor and some other reasons. Most teams, have also opted to carry .45 or .40 Cal Semi-auto handguns, no matter what, the normal department issue pistol is. I think the .45 leads the pack there.



> If one of officers does employ his or her rifle in the full auto function and my son is injured or killed, then I'm going to demand training records for the officer in question ?  What is their skill level? how was it obtained? what is their ROE regarding the use of full auto? and who has trained them and how often has that particular officer trained with the weapon system ?



I think I sort of covered this before. In any case the civilian legal system has both criminal and civil resources to cover such incidents, as injuries and death by police action. Yes, Training records could become a part of such criminal or civil action. LE Agencies need to keep their individual officers training records up to date, etc. to cover all the things you have mentioned. Most major departments do so. ROE as I said should be covered in the Departments firearms regulations and/or policies. 




> As of right now, I'm afraid my department would have a hard time coming up with anything more than one day at a range with a ANG guy having been the designated firearms marksmenship instructor.



Sooner or later, especially with the issue of FA weapons to regular officers without special training, etc. Your community will be spending 'mucho' $$$ to settle law-suits, etc. Not to mention the bad media.



> On your second point.   I was not trying to diss the ANG individual about his prior service, however I highly doubt that he's any more qaulified than me to employ the use of full auto with an AR15 rifle.  Not that I'm a high speed low drag dude type, but I'm not a newbie to the weapon systems that our department is about to start carrying along with the shotgun in their crusiers. I might even be so bold as to say that I could probably teach most them how to actually employ the weapon system. I don't think they even know how to zero their irons at this point.



I agree! Offer your services to your Chief and explain so of the stuff we're talking about here. Doesn't your State Training Commission have any training standards for these things?  :eek:


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## Scotth (Jul 21, 2008)

Good thread with some solid info.

Was just going to echo a point TW made in his first post.  My Uncle is an Assistant Police Chief and they had a citizen ambush one of his officers and killed him.  When they setup a wide perimeter around the block in the initial phases of trying to capture the guy.  They had the guy moving in between houses and across the street but couldn't hit him because they only had MP5's and the shot was to long.  They got AR15 after that incident for some of the officers.

He also talked about school shooting changing there response tactics and not waiting for SWAT to arrive and having to go in sooner as soon as you could get back-up.


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## 8'Duece (Jul 21, 2008)

I can see the limitations of the MP5 series and 9mm Luger, hence the AR15 or the G36 rifle. Like every weapon there are certain limitations and one cannot be fully implimented for all puposes. 

Trip Wires SWAT teams must be much more advanced than ours. Our is a county wide SWAT team made up of members of all the cities PD's in the county.  As of now every single newbie to the force wants on the county SWAT.  Last I checked we had one SOF guy on the team and he got tired of working with what he called "less than desirable skill sets"  We need a new trainup or something.


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 21, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> I'm glad you mentioned the "Center Peel" But, I can't see any scenario that law enforcement would employ a _peel._



I can't either for most LE routine duties on the 'street.' Keep in mind; however, we could have to deal with both domestic and foreign terrorist at any time anywhere in the USA at any time.

That said, most major departments in the USA have to consider what happened in Russia. SWAT teams with FA weapons need to train with this type of incident in mind. It could happen here ... We have plenty of sleeper cells in the USA! (Not to mention our porous boarders! :eek:

This would be training for special units like SWAT who will have to contain the situation, until it was decided whose jurisdiction such a situation would be handled by. My guess the FBI to start with, but local LE will respond first and have to deal with it until they sort it out at the political level. In the end it might take the declaration of Martial law and the use of military Spec Ops. units, etc. 


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beslan_school_hostage_crisis


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## 8'Duece (Jul 21, 2008)

Trip_Wire said:


> I can't either for most LE routine duties on the 'street.' Keep in mind; however, we could have to deal with both domestic and foreign terrorist at any time anywhere in the USA at any time.
> 
> That said, most major departments in the USA have to consider what happened in Russia. SWAT teams with FA weapons need to train with this type of incident in mind. It could happen here ... We have plenty of sleeper cells in the USA! (Not to mention our porous boarders! :eek:
> 
> ...




Great responses, thanks for keeping this going. 

Let's examine the Beslan incident.  This seems to me to be an almost NON PERMISSIVE envirenment for shooters with school kids all cluttered through the room while being held captive. At best it's a SEMI PERMISSIVE envirenment and I can't see opeing up on full auto in that scenario if a team is going to breach the doors or the walls.  With proper intel, counter intel on the room situation you could use double taps instead of full auto and accomplish much more safety to the room occupants no ? 

Just some thoughts.


Another good incident is the "Good Guys" electronics store with SWAT. 

There was and is alot to learned from this incident. SWAT had major success's and some major failures before this ended.  It also makes for good reading. In this scenario the employment of the .45 ACP Sig pistol was also used with success vs a rifle or subgun. 

HERE: http://www.swatdigest.com/archives/arch_june_goodguys.html


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 21, 2008)

> 82ndtrooper;185648]I can see the limitations of the MP5 series and 9mm Luger, hence the AR15 or the G36 rifle. Like every weapon there are certain limitations and one cannot be fully implimented for all puposes.



True! Cost is sometimes a factor as well in selection.



> Trip Wires SWAT teams must be much more advanced than ours. Our is a county wide SWAT team made up of members of all the cities PD's in the county.



Yes, however, mine didn't start out that way! I was the one who implemented the start of the team, it was a tough and continuing fight with the Departments heads and especially the budget people. — The Battle continues. ...



> As of now every single newbie to the force wants on the county SWAT.  Last I checked we had one SOF guy on the team and he got tired of working with what he called "less than desirable skill sets"  We need a new trainup or something.



Something I didn't mention, unless a prospective member has a solid background in military Spec Ops., etc. (This is a individual case and he has to have finished probation.)  otherwise he has to have been on the department five years. No Rookies!

We in Washington State have at least one team, like that composed of small cities. I don't favor such teams, nor small departments with teams where every member of the department is on the SWAT team, to include the chief in some cases. 

I favor having regional SWAT teams and Bomb Disposal units. The biggest reasons are money, more people to select from and most of all duplication of very expensive equipment and training time needed.

The thing that defeats regional teams, is politics! — Nobody wants to loose there own little Kingdom! :doh:


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 21, 2008)

Speaking of SWAT training, here is an e-mail I just received on training.:

*TRAINING ANNOUNCEMENT:*

The National Tactical Officers Association is once again offering a comprehensive 3-day tactical SWAT and bomb squad curriculum as part of the 25th NTOA Annual Tactical Operations Conference being held in Albuquerque, New Mexico on September 14-19, 2008

The 3-day curriculum is designed for Bomb Technicians, SWAT officers and supervisors who provide integrated support during high risk tactical operations and have little experience on how these two high risk disciplines will need to operate together. The course will involve one day of classroom presentations followed by a second day of practical exercises and presentations. The third day will involve a final tactical exercise where bomb/SWAT teams are integrated into a multi-jurisdictional and multi-discipline Field Training Exercise throughout the City of Albuquerque.


Day 1 – Orientation

              Current Global & Domestic Threat

              Principles of SWAT/Bomb Squad Integration

              Threat Assessment

  Pre-mission Planning/Briefing, Tools & Equipment

              Improvised Explosive Device Awareness



Day 2 – Explosive Breaching Overview

Basic SWAT Movement & Drills

Practical Tasks



Day 3- Participation in the Multi-discipline FTX


For more information visit the National Tactical Officers Association’s web at 

www.ntoa.org

BTW: I am a firm believer in SWAT Team/Bomb Disposal unit Integration!


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## WillBrink (Jul 24, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> TW,
> 
> I don't remember any ROE, especially for full auto M16A1's.
> 
> ...



Interesting stuff. Trip Wire has far more info then I do. I have never heard of non RRT/SWAT getting FA ARs. In my experience (which is limited compared to many here), there's a wide range of experience and training of SWAT/RRT both team to team and within the team, so "SWAT" can = a group of well trained switched on guys to guys who have just slightly more training than other LEO's in their area and consider themselves SWAT by default of having the cool toys. 

Of the SWAT/RRT I have been around, none went FA unless just goofing around for some fun at the range. Were the Dallas guys on the show just blasting off at the range for a goof or was it treated as part of training? Others here may have experience/knowledge of FA as part of training for a specific (albeit rare) scenario where FA might be required, but I have not seen it myself.

Although not a reflection of "real world" experience, but telling perhaps, none of the major SWAT comps, like SWAT Challenge, SWAT Roundup, etc have any FA stages, and the stages are designed to reflect real world challenges and or scenarios as best they can and are deigned by other SWAT/RRT types...It sounds like bad mojo handing out FA and I can see your concern there. Unlss they do a lot of training on their own, the average LEO is sub par with his side arm, much less a FA AR.

Hopefully these comments are not straying too far from my lane.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 24, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> 1. What is the need for FA in urban law enforcement ?


FA is not needed in a carbine or rifle, in LE or Mil. (If you need to suppress use a MG or rapid fire) heavy rates of suppression fire are not determined by the weapon, but by the control with in the team. Making the guns sing or talk EST.



82ndtrooper said:


> 2. If you are using an "FA" carbine, AR15, then how much training have you had with the use of "FA" and what ROE with "FA" does your department have ?



LE and in most cases Mil ROE’s do not allow for suppression fire. (Positive ID of threat and collateral damage) Now the Mil teaches and uses suppression fire in order to maneuver on or break contact from the enemy.



82ndtrooper said:


> 3. How much training on "FA" is enough ? One course of instruction ? two, three, and who is training you to use a weapon on "FA"



It is very important in the Mil community as far as burst control with a M249, M240, M2, MK19. Personal should have remedial training and practice quarterly IMO. As for LE they do not use the types of weapons and should not use the types of weapons… Now LE who use Sub guns MP5, P90, EST, should receive a solid 40hour course on each weapon used, followed with remedial training quarterly to include a qualification.



82ndtrooper said:


> 4. Given that the SFAUC only instructs it's students in "SEMI AUTO" type of fire, what justification do law enforcement officers and SWAT have to use and outdated firing method?



They really don’t, they are subject to use of force laws similar to a normal citizen. Every round sent out of their weapon is accounted for and they responsible for. If they shoot the innocent bystander, they are criminally and civilly liable… So even if being ambushed while responding to a call or what ever, if they use a high volume of fire to move to cover, break contact or maneuver on the threat. They have to use their judgment and hope to come out on top with what ever they choose. (Better to be judged by 12 then carried by 6, until you’re in the courtroom getting a life sentence)



82ndtrooper said:


> Here is the method of fire used by the professional soldiers in the SOF community and straight from the SFAUC manual of CQB type of fire.
> 
> 1. Slow aimed fire.
> 2. Controlled Pairs.
> ...


I would say training should be focused on:

1.	Slow fire 
2.	Controlled pair fire
3.	Rapid fire

 All shots are aimed and you only fire when you have the sights aligned. The double tap method doesn’t work unless extremely close in my personal experience. 

As for LE having a Sub gun that is FA, I am all for it. But I cannot see any reason why LE or Mil would need a FA rifle/ Carbine…:2c:


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## pardus (Jul 24, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> All shots are aimed and you only fire when you have the sights aligned.



I will add my Auto fire was from the hip (at least half a mag sometimes a full mag, (not in one burst) before going to the shoulder) and yep it went where I wanted it to go :cool:

That said, it was for a very specific job in a very specific circumstance.



J.A.B. said:


> The double tap method doesn’t work unless extremely close in my personal experience.



:uhh: using a 7.62 at a distance I can understand but with a 5.56mm?  



PUSSY!!    ;)


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 24, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> I will add my Auto fire was from the hip (at least half a mag sometimes a full mag, (not in one burst) before going to the shoulder) and yep it went where I wanted it to go
> 
> That said, it was for a very specific job in a very specific circumstance.



What was that being an extra on a Rambo movie?:confused:



pardus762 said:


> using a 7.62 at a distance I can understand but with a 5.56mm?



Yep even with a 9mm double tap is one sight picture shoot twice, controlled pair is sight picture shoot, sight picture shoot, sight picture… Just as fast and accurate!



pardus762 said:


> PUSSY!!




FAG:eek:


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 24, 2008)

J.A.B.:

Quote:

"As for LE having a Sub gun that is FA, I am all for it. But I cannot see any reason why LE or Mil would need a FA rifle/ Carbine."

I disagree with you here, unless you are talking about individual officers, carrying FA weapons. If your talking about SWAT Teams, 90% of the major police SWAT teams disagree with you as well.

There has been a big movement  from the MP-5 to the M-4 FA Carbine for many reasons. In looking at your profile, I don't see a background in LE, did I miss something?


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## 8'Duece (Jul 24, 2008)

Trip_Wire said:


> J.A.B.:
> 
> Quote:
> 
> ...



Maybe he served as the Chief of the Department. That might explain it eh ?


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## pardus (Jul 24, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> What was that being an extra on a Rambo movie?
> 
> Lead scout, jungle warfare. Don't knock something until you know it, it works if you have the skills, I'll teach you if you finish your dinner!
> 
> ...



You wish, lol  



Trip_Wire said:


> In looking at your profile, I don't see a background in LE, did I miss something?



*OUCH!!!*  lol


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 24, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> Maybe he served as the Chief of the Department. That might explain it eh ?



You must have seen my comments on PS, regarding Chief's of Police. Eh? :uhh:>:{


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 24, 2008)

My background in LE is primarily training, attending and putting on classes. I have worked with several SWAT LEO’s and yes they are moving from the MP5 for cretin positions on SWAT teams, however they are not moving away from it totally. The M4 is being moved to in some cases for penetration and distance. Being able to penetrate body armor and shoot down long hallways EST. 

Most LEO’s that want a FA option want it for simple cool factor. I base that off of several conversations with SWAT and non SWAT LEO’s that have said yays and nays. Most have very little experience in FA and the ones who do, say they would not use it. The ones who obviously have zero experience with a FA AR15 platform are normally the ones who want it for cool factor…

Nope no police chief here, I attempt to keep my distance from the LE world ;)


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## pardus (Jul 24, 2008)

I have to add, I don't advocate FA, I wrote what I did do dispell people's preconceived notions about FA.

We used to laugh at the Americans for not having FA due to the poor fire control displayed during the Vietnam war, fire control is about training and disipline.

FA should be a skill that is taught IMO, despite rarely ever needing to utilise it. :2c:


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## 8'Duece (Jul 24, 2008)

Trip_Wire said:


> You must have seen my comments on PS, regarding Chief's of Police. Eh? :uhh:>:{



Yes, I caught that yesterday, but I didn't submit my resume. ;)


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 24, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> You wish, lol
> 
> 
> 
> *OUCH!!!*  lol



You know, you guys are soooooooooo right! I have no fucking clue what I am talking about; I guess Ill sit back and read your super awesome advice on the subject. From all you subject matter experts!!!


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## pardus (Jul 24, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> You know, you guys are soooooooooo right! I have no fucking clue what I am talking about; I guess Ill sit back and read your super awesome advice on the subject. From all you subject matter experts!!!



How much instruction/training have you had with FA fire?


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 24, 2008)

> J.A.B.;187028]My background in LE is primarily training, attending and putting on classes.



I see. I guess that means, since you are not or never have been a commissioned LEO, you have no LE background to draw from at all. :doh:

In my experience, civilians don't usually attend LE agencies classes. So, you must be talking about civilian classes put on by the various civilian firearms 'experts,' some of whom are ex-LEOs and/or Competitive shooters, etc. Some of these people are excellent and others just want you money. 

You say you put on classes for LEOs? What do you teach? What credentials do you have that qualifies you to teach what you teach? How long have you been teaching and how old are you?

Most 'competitive shooters' seem to have a VERY low opinion of LE firearms training and their shooting abilities. Sometimes it is justified; however, since you say you are a competitive shooter, it makes me wonder if you have that bias.



> I have worked with several SWAT LEO’s and yes they are moving from the MP5 for cretin positions on SWAT teams, however they are not moving away from it totally. The M4 is being moved to in some cases for penetration and distance. Being able to penetrate body armor and shoot down long hallways EST.



Again, you say "several SWAT LEOs." Are they SWAT team members of a major SWAT team? Does their team have MP-5s? Do they have M-4 Carbines? How long have they been SWAT team members, what is their experience? What do they base their opinions on? I agree their is still a use for sub-guns, particularly the MP-5 because of it firing from a closed bolt, tends to lend to it's accuracy and also it's ease of use as a silenced weapon. I think its the best one on the market for that.

A number of the major SWAT teams get involved with dignitary protection and working with the Secret Service and State Department on visits of VIPs. The various compact MP-5 versions work well in this area. My snipers also worked with the Secret Service on most Presidential visits to my AO.

I also see the need for the change to the FA M-4 carbine. Most major LE SWAT teams are using the M-4 carbine or other types of domestic made FA Carbines. The penetration of body armor is an important factor, as well as range. Also to be taken into consideration is the fact, that most LEO's are ex-military and have been trained in the use of the M-16 series weapons, as well as in some cases used them in combat.

The cost of the weapon as well as availability of parts, etc. is also an important consideration. Have you compared LE prices between an MP-5 (Or for that matter any H&K weapons System) to the Colt M-4 or other domestic carbine types? M-16 30 or 15 rd. magazines jump out, as fairly easy to come up with compared to H&K or other weapons systems. The department's 'Bean Counters' are always joyfully, ready to cut items out of the budget you submit.



> Most LEO’s that want a FA option want it for simple cool factor. I base that off of several conversations with SWAT and non SWAT LEO’s that have said yays and nays. Most have very little experience in FA and the ones who do, say they would not use it. The ones who obviously have zero experience with a FA AR15 platform are normally the ones who want it for cool factor…



There is of course some truth, to what you say about the coolness factor; however, in my experience, such 'coolness,' is usually prevalent in rookies, and/or very young inexperienced LEOs. 

Make no mistake, I do not condone FA weapons of LEO's who are not in the SWAT team or other LE teams (There are others.) armed with Special Weapons. IMO, ordinary patrol and/or individual weapons do not need FA weapons. They do need SA carbines, however, in this day and age as well as the old 870 12 GA!

I do see the need for Special LE units to have Special weapons, to include FA weapons. One has to pretty naive in this day and age, to come to the conclusion, that LE agencies don't need such weapons. The LE agencies of the USA are just as involved in the GWOT as the military in their own way. Also, keep in mind the Drug cartels, 'Gang Bangers' form all over South America and Mexico, as well as Foreign and Domestic Terrorists. Most all of whom are armed with FA weapons like the AK-47 and it's various newer models. 



> Nope no police chief here, I attempt to keep my distance from the LE world ;)



Hmmm ... for someone that makes this statement, you seem to have a lot to say about the LE field, without any practical LE experience. 

I'm not trying to bust your chops here nor get into a pissing contest, just trying to point out why some of your comments might tend to get a retired SWAT team commander who served 34 Years in LE a little upset. :2c:


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 24, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> You know, you guys are soooooooooo right! I have no fucking clue what I am talking about; I guess Ill sit back and read your super awesome advice on the subject. From all you subject matter experts!!!




Gee! And you didn't even read mine yet! :eek:

It seems to me that you seem to be adopting an unnecessary 'Attitude' here. Why not use your 'expertise' to counter such comments, instead of adopting such an PP attitude right off the get go! :2c:

Stay cool! :cool:


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 24, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> I have to add, I don't advocate FA, I wrote what I did do dispell people's preconceived notions about FA.
> 
> We used to laugh at the Americans for not having FA due to the poor fire control displayed during the Vietnam war, fire control is about training and disipline.
> 
> FA should be a skill that is taught IMO, despite rarely ever needing to utilise it. :2c:



Of course, I agree with what you say! That said, if FA weapons are not in the Team's inventory like JAB, suggests the training is useless, since they have nothing to use such training for. :doh::2c:


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## pardus (Jul 24, 2008)

Trip_Wire said:


> Of course, I agree with what you say! That said, if FA weapons are not in the Team's inventory like JAB, suggests the training is useless, since they have nothing to use such training for. :doh::2c:



Oh yes you are absolutely right, I was meaning if the Army decided to treat their Soldiers like adults again and give them some FA toys once again :)

Doing it now would be like training Marines to eat with knives and forks, it'd be nice to see but ultimately a useless exercise never put into practice!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 24, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> How much instruction/training have you had with FA fire?



I baught a James Yeager video once Oh and I did watch  Heart break ridge once!!!

But to be honest, more then I ever needed... Not ganna list them all, but off the top of my head...

2 LE sub gun courses.

P90 operators course.

Scout Indoc covered alot of Burst and FA.

Some  German army dudes course (FA shooting burst's ) for something they called Automatic rifle training... <---Waste of time:2c:

6 months of training to become a small arms inst (did alot of FA training of all types)

Use to screw around on the range with it when I taught full time, shooting CQM on burst and wiring back a sear to make it FA..  I use to shoot anywhere from 500 to 1500 rounds a week when teaching.... So we tested alot of bullshit! Hip shooting is a thing of the past brother...

Oh and I have seen a little on TV


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## pardus (Jul 24, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> But to be honest, more then I ever needed... Not ganna list them all, but off the top of my head...
> 
> Cool
> 
> ...



You're still a pussy!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 24, 2008)

Trip_Wire said:


> I see. I guess that means, since you are not or never have been a commissioned LEO, you have no LE background to draw from at all.



Nope never been a LEO. However, if you feel that b/c I have not I have no imput. I guess we just should not discuss opinions. 



Trip_Wire said:


> In my experience, civilians don't usually attend LE agencies classes. So, you must be talking about civilian classes put on by the various civilian firearms 'experts,' some of whom are ex-LEOs and/or Competitive shooters, etc. Some of these people are excellent and others just want you money.



I have over 1000 hours of LE course I have attended… Guess it must be different around here… They normally are happy to have a mil guy attend a class



Trip_Wire said:


> You say you put on classes for LEOs? What do you teach? What credentials do you have that qualifies you to teach what you teach? How long have you been teaching and how old are you?



Taught pistol and rifle marksmanship, only spent about 4 years (off and on mostly weekend stuff) teaching it on a private bases… a lot of word of mouth and guys wanting to become better… I am 26 years old.



Trip_Wire said:


> Most 'competitive shooters' seem to have a VERY low opinion of LE firearms training and their shooting abilities. Sometimes it is justified; however, since you say you are a competitive shooter, it makes me wonder if you have that bias.



Only when their ego gets in the way, or when they start throwing their LE experience around… I am a shooter, and I attempt to stay in my lane. I have never taught tactics to LE and I wont! I am very bias too anyone who doesn’t have an open mind to shooting and or dismisses someone’s knowledge b/c of age, race, background.



Trip_Wire said:


> Again, you say "several SWAT LEOs." Are they SWAT team members of a major SWAT team? Does their team have MP-5s? Do they have M-4 Carbines? How long have they been SWAT team members, what is their experience? What do they base their opinions on? I agree their is still a use for sub-guns, particularly the MP-5 because of it firing from a closed bolt, tends to lend to it's accuracy and also it's ease of use as a silenced weapon. I think its the best one on the market for that.



 Don’t know all of their background, but yes they are members of a large full time SWAT team, yes they use the MP5, P90, M4 and M14. Do not know what else they carry; I am not on their Team. I also know a lot of small town multi jurisdictional SWAT team members along with several members who have been involved in the counter drug program. Of course I also know and have taught the (SWAT basic certified) ass clown who wears a SWAT badge and thinks he is SWAT too. LE is very diverse in it’s people it attracts, much like the military!



Trip_Wire said:


> A number of the major SWAT teams get involved with dignitary protection and working with the Secret Service and State Department on visits of VIPs. The various compact MP-5 versions work well in this area. My snipers also worked with the Secret Service on most Presidential visits to my AO.
> 
> I also see the need for the change to the FA M-4 carbine. Most major LE SWAT teams are using the M-4 carbine or other types of domestic made FA Carbines. The penetration of body armor is an important factor, as well as range. Also to be taken into consideration is the fact, that most LEO's are ex-military and have been trained in the use of the M-16 series weapons, as well as in some cases used them in combat.
> 
> The cost of the weapon as well as availability of parts, etc. is also an important consideration. Have you compared LE prices between an MP-5 (Or for that matter any H&K weapons System) to the Colt M-4 or other domestic carbine types? M-16 30 or 15 rd. magazines jump out, as fairly easy to come up with compared to H&K or other weapons systems. The department's 'Bean Counters' are always joyfully, ready to cut items out of the budget you submit.



I could not agree more with you on this, but I still do not see how FA M4 is practical for a SAWT team. When talking about the liabilities involved with the dynamic nature of a SWAT team, their abilities to go in half-cocked and spray some lead will result in charges being filed and multiple lawsuits. There is some good case law regarding this in Florida!





Trip_Wire said:


> There is of course some truth, to what you say about the coolness factor; however, in my experience, such 'coolness,' is usually prevalent in rookies, and/or very young inexperienced LEOs.
> 
> Make no mistake, I do not condone FA weapons of LEO's who are not in the SWAT team or other LE teams (There are others.) armed with Special Weapons. IMO, ordinary patrol and/or individual weapons do not need FA weapons. They do need SA carbines, however, in this day and age as well as the old 870 12 GA!
> 
> I do see the need for Special LE units to have Special weapons, to include FA weapons. One has to pretty naive in this day and age, to come to the conclusion, that LE agencies don't need such weapons. The LE agencies of the USA are just as involved in the GWOT as the military in their own way. Also, keep in mind the Drug cartels, 'Gang Bangers' form all over South America and Mexico, as well as Foreign and Domestic Terrorists. Most all of whom are armed with FA weapons like the AK-47 and it's various newer models.



Are we talking about a city LEA SWAT team or a CD-TF Tactical team? I have also worked with the Tactical CD-TF teams, ADSW/AT/ ADT with state CD program&(JTF- North), helping train teams on military tactics and helo (air assault as they called it) ops and weapons familiarizations. I would agree that these team’s do need FA weapons in cretin operations...





Trip_Wire said:


> I'm not trying to bust your chops here nor get into a pissing contest, just trying to point out why some of your comments might tend to get a retired SWAT team commander who served 34 Years in LE a little upset. :2c:



No worries, I simply have an opinion. Even if I don’t have 34 years experience as a SWAT commander. I did not mean to be disrespectful to the LE community by my post, I guess I could try to word it different next time. I hope you are enjoying the retirement! ;)


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 24, 2008)

Trip_Wire said:


> Gee! And you didn't even read mine yet! :eek:
> 
> It seems to me that you seem to be adopting an unnecessary 'Attitude' here. Why not use your 'expertise' to counter such comments, instead of adopting such an PP attitude right off the get go! :2c:
> 
> Stay cool! :cool:



No "attitude" I guess you missed the smiles:doh:


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 24, 2008)

J.A.B.


We all have opinions! When I look at some 'somebodies' opinion on a subject, I like to be able to see what actual experience and/or expertise, the person bases such opinions on. Opinions are like belly buttons — Everyone has one! ;) 

Here in Washington State LE classes which civilians can attend are held in the Community Colleges. No firearms training though. The State Training Commission does some training and organizes a lot of other LE training, to include Basic & Advanced SWAT certification. No civilians allowed in there classes either.

The LE Agencies here also put on training for themselves and others, in various subjects, to include firearms training. In a large Departments, there are many officers with expertise in CQC and other firearms skills that they have gained in the SEALs, Rangers, SF and other Special Operations units. Seldom do they do not tend to use outside civilian firearms schools and/or instructors. No civilian people are able to attend these classes either. Some individual officers, do pay for and take such civilian run firearms classes with mixed results

I see no use in 'Beating a dead horse' here (Wish they had that smilie.) So, I'll take some of my further questions to IMs. Yes, I'm talking about SWAT teams and LEO's no military at all.


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## Rabid Badger (Jul 25, 2008)

WOW. I missed a lot!!!

LA should be the shining example of why LEO's should be trained in FA. Along with FA for street patrol, SWAT should be trained on advanced sniper tactics. Good LEA's know this and do train their members on quality shots vs. quantity. 

By saying trained, I mean to say firing a session of FA at the range, on consecutive / concurrent range days. This show's the LEO the rise of recoil and how how to control the weapon. This is not saying he will start the cruiser and go looking for a firefight..

The example I'd use in LA would be sustained rate of fire on the BG while a sniper would be moving to a quality shot position. When the BG's go full auto, liability becomes a distant thought. 

LA was the bad learning curve that forced a lot of LEA's to 'look inside' and not like what they saw.

DoD / IC's / Civilians:

As an IC on a contract with DoD, I am authorized to attend Law Enforcement courses and have on occasion, even tho 'classified' as a civilian. The term 'civilian' I relate to someone with no military background and no law enforcement background. This does not mean to me nor will it ever, that a shooter doesn't have a quality opinion and here's why:

Jerry Barnhardt (TST x2 - got the hat and the shirt and those who've attended know what it takes to win the hat) has not been in the military or in the LE field. I'd challenge anyone I know to outshoot him on a range or in a house. Does his opinion count? You bet it does! 

http://www.jerrybarnhart.com/

I value all opinions.......:cool:...bring 'em!! ;)


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## WillBrink (Jul 25, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> By saying trained, I mean to say firing a session of FA at the range, on consecutive / concurrent range days. This show's the LEO the rise of recoil and how how to control the weapon.



How would you rate this:

[ame="http://s23.photobucket.com/albums/b374/willbrink/?action=view&current=WillFullauto.flv"]Video of Will FA - Photobucket - Video and Image Hosting[/ame]


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## Rabid Badger (Jul 25, 2008)

WillBrink said:


> How would you rate this:



Great if done on a continual basis......most folks think that just point and shoot FA, and the gun will stay on target....

Anyone who's fired FA knows you have to settle in, lean forward a little more, and ride the recoil high right back on target.....

Those guys are obviously shooters. Hand someone the weapon who doesn't know what it's gonna do and see what happens, then hand it to an LEO who fired FA the day before!

One problem in financial. You're talking range days and bullets......

Big fat political police chiefs who never had a gun incident on the street are gonna laugh at the cost of 2 range days and 20,000 5.56....sucks to say.....feel bad for PD's with those types at the top!!

I'd rather spend my training $$ on quality shots, house take-downs...

Good shooting!! ;)


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## pardus (Jul 25, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> Anyone who's fired FA knows you have to settle in, lean forward a little more, and ride the recoil high right back on target.....



Indeed, I'd hate to see where my rounds would go nowadays! :eek: :doh: lol


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## WillBrink (Jul 25, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> Great if done on a continual basis......most folks think that just point and shoot FA, and the gun will stay on target....



Because that's what happens in movies and TV...



razor_baghdad said:


> Anyone who's fired FA knows you have to settle in, lean forward a little more, and ride the recoil high right back on target.....



That last burst took me out of my center of gravity a tad, but I got it back on track. Wish I had more access to practice such things more often.



razor_baghdad said:


> Good shooting!! ;)



Thanx. This group does not seem to have limits on how much lead they can throw cost wise, but I'm sure it could be/will be a factor if ammo costs keep going up and budgets keep going down. 

OK, no more thread hijacking from me.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 25, 2008)

Although I do not agree with FA carbines or rifles, I do agree with sub-guns. Simply b/c of the controllability and need for mutable shots to be effective.

Training, training, training and more training is the key. RB you could not be more right, on the amount of practice it takes.

Some of the performance modifications out on the market can reduce muzzle rise and or recoil, this being a major plus. However, when shooting FA with a shoulder-fired rifle you will never be able to get rid of the rise “barrel drift” completely. 

In perfect conditions, while building a good solid platform. You may be able to stay on target out to 25 yards (with all of the rounds fired) and this being with a lot of training. Start throwing in moving and or multiple targets, maybe some more distance. You will see rounds going everywhere!  Not to bring up the AR15 platform safety selector switch, being tossed to FA vs. semi and throwing rapid fire just as fast. 

Building it in to muscle memory with ton’s of ammo as RB posted and yeah you might be well trained. Now throw it together in a stress-induced environment, shoot – no shoot, picking up flash pictures and trying to put it all together. That’s a lot of work to be able to fire a 3 to 5 round burst vs. aimed rapid fire!


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## gunslinger (Jul 25, 2008)

Yeah we have patrol rifles in the trunk. But they are not full auto.  The average LE road warrior dosent get enough training with his service weapon let alone the budget for training with full auto weapons.     Full auto is for the military and maybe some high speed anti terrorist SWAT or SRT teams. Just my :2c:.        

On the other hand we did some full auto (very little) on the range at my last ARNG AT.  And it was a fucken blast.     I dont think I hit much but what a rush. :cool:


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 25, 2008)

gunslinger said:


> Yeah we have patrol rifles in the trunk. But they are not full auto.  The average LE road warrior dosent get enough training with his service weapon let alone the budget for training with full auto weapons.     Full auto is for the military and maybe some high speed anti terrorist SWAT or SRT teams. Just my :2c:.
> 
> On the other hand we did some full auto (very little) on the range at my last ARNG AT.  And it was a fucken blast.     I dont think I hit much but what a rush. :cool:



I couldn't agree with you more!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 25, 2008)

I am going to eat some crow and say I am wrong in my above statements. TW has made some very good points in pm's why FA could be a benefit in the LE (SWAT) world. Some info of threats I was not privy too nor was I aware of as a possibility. 

So I was put in my place and respectfully with draw my above statements!


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## Trip_Wire (Jul 25, 2008)

Very nice there J.A.B.! I appreciate those comments!


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