# CMMG decent quality lower?



## arizonaguide (May 27, 2009)

I've got an option to get a CMMG lower at a discounted price. ($115)
Are they worth a damn?

It's a striped lower, so I can fill it with whatever (quality) guts I want, right?


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## koz (May 28, 2009)

I've got a few CMMG lowers and they are built well and seem to be mil-spec or damn close.  

I put Colt, RRA and DPMS parts (all from Brownells) in the CMMG lower, but I've got Geissele triggers... 

Yes they're good lowers


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## Tracker275 (May 28, 2009)

koz said:


> I've got a few CMMG lowers and they are built well and seem to be mil-spec or damn close.
> 
> I put Colt, RRA and DPMS parts (all from Brownells) in the CMMG lower, but I've got Geissele triggers...
> 
> Yes they're good lowers



I totally agree with koz as well.

However, they have a tendency to take a bit to get what you ordered to you. Now, I am referring to pre-Obama election, not now, because everyone is back ordered.

I would definitely put them up against everyone else's though.


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## 8'Duece (May 28, 2009)

Their good to go. 

I'm fairly certain they don't have Colt large hammer and trigger pin holes, so anything ordered from RRA or Brownells will fit.


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## koz (May 28, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> Their good to go.
> 
> I'm fairly certain they don't have Colt large hammer and trigger pin holes, so anything ordered from RRA or Brownells will fit.



That's correct - small hammer/trigger holes.  I guess I should have clarified that the colt parts I bought were things like bolt release, mag release, etc... and only b/c they were out of DPMS/RRA parts.  

On a side note, the RRA Star Safetly selector - (739-000-007) is pretty nice and I've got them in my CMMG's  

Ok back to the thread:cool:


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## koz (May 28, 2009)

Tracker275 said:


> I totally agree with koz as well.
> 
> However, they have a tendency to take a bit to get what you ordered to you. Now, I am referring to pre-Obama election, not now, because everyone is back ordered.
> 
> I would definitely put them up against everyone else's though.



Also Brownell's has CMMG lowers in stock as of now..  Their mil/le price is pretty good.


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## 8'Duece (May 28, 2009)

koz said:


> That's correct - small hammer/trigger holes.  I guess I should have clarified that the colt parts I bought were things like bolt release, mag release, etc... and only b/c they were out of DPMS/RRA parts.
> 
> On a side note, the RRA Star Safetly selector - (739-000-007) is pretty nice and I've got them in my CMMG's
> 
> Ok back to the thread:cool:



I just recently became a fan of the Star safey selector and ordered 4 of them for my rifles.  

X2


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## arizonaguide (Jun 12, 2009)

Okay, so I'm going to start on this CMMG Lower receiver, and I'm wondering if I should be getting the "standard" parts kit package ($99), or should this be something that I start putting special "guts" into right away. I'm looking at pretty much of a "minimalist" type setup (yes read that "cheap bastard") but I don't want to get a POS setup. I'm NOT looking at this to be "sniper accuracy" but a decent "urban" weapon (out to 350yds +/-), and will probably end up with a 16"+ (maybe more) barrel. Any words of wisdom? What are the smart moves from here. (or, is quality on a limited budget even possible?).


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## 8'Duece (Jun 12, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Okay, so I'm going to start on this CMMG Lower receiver, and I'm wondering if I should be getting the "standard" parts kit package ($99), or should this be something that I start putting special "guts" into right away. I'm looking at pretty much of a "minimalist" type setup (yes read that "cheap bastard") but I don't want to get a POS setup. I'm NOT looking at this to be "sniper accuracy" but a decent "urban" weapon (out to 350yds +/-), and will probably end up with a 16"+ (maybe more) barrel. Any words of wisdom? What are the smart moves from here. (or, is quality on a limited budget even possible?).



You could order your parts kit from RRA.  If you want a two stage their NM 2 stage is decent, but Jewel or Geisele are the more opted for NM type adjustable triggers. They are more expensive than a single stage trigger. 

You can also go to Brownells and order a complete parts kit also.  Their all about the same in quality. IMHO. 

What type of stock ? A2 or Carbine retractable ??  This will require different parts from each other.  Personally I'd go with Mil-Spec extension with a 5 or 6position retractable.  You can slide on a high speed SOPMOD or EMOD stock.  UBR stock etc.  It's my personal preference even with a longer range setup.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 12, 2009)

Thanks 82. I was (originally) going to go with a "plain" A2 style, for sentimental reasons. But, I picked up a complete older A2 weapon for $688 (my cost) so that takes care of that. 

So, now I can kinda do whatever I want for this one, but still want a pretty "basic" carbine style with retractable stock. I'll put a scope on the other (longer barrel), so this CARBINE setup will end up with a shorter (16"+ I think is my civilian minimum) barrel and just a RedDot of some kind.
This will be pretty much a "shorter range" (<350yd "urban" type "close quarters" setup).

That's good to know about the different parts kit based on the stock choice. 
I didn't know that effected the Lower parts choices. 
I haven't had an AR (dissassembled) in my hands since 10+ years ago in the USAF, so I'm pretty much of an M4 virgin, and clueless to the ways of the carbine (and vague on the AR in general).

But, I gotta do this while it's still "legal", so, Shadowspear is my guide for this project, and I'll go with pretty much whatever you folks advise (on the limited budget). Brownells (or RRA) sounds like the easiest way to start off, since we are STILL waiting for parts kits at work, maybe they're quicker. I'm sure LOTSA folks are doing this same project right now...so I should just get one ordered, I guess.

We have a "$29 repair kit" in stock, but it looks like it doesn't include the "trigger assembly" so I wonder if I should just go ahead and get that, and order a better trigger setup? This is all new territory for me...so I'm kinda stumbling around a bit.
But, I also don't want to be too much of a pain in the ass.

Thanks for any help folks. It's appreciated.


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## koz (Jun 12, 2009)

Call Bill Springfield www.triggerwork.net and he'll lighten a normal trigger up for pretty cheap.  I've got one of his triggers and it's better than the standard GI..  You can also buy a trigger from him.  

I really like the Magpul MOE grip and stock.  The MIAD and CTR are nicer but much more expensive.  Get the enhanced trigger guard.  I think the Geissele trigger is the best out there, it's just expensive.  The SSA is a non-adjustable but a great two stage.  They're really hard to find.  After that I like the Hi-Speed DMR.  You'll never want another trigger after a Geissele.


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## 8'Duece (Jun 12, 2009)

*So you want to buy an AR ???*

This has been around for a while now but I don't think it's been posted here. 

Arizoneguide:  This is great reading and it is lengthy but worth your time and for others that are looking to build their knowledge base of the AR/15/M16/M4 platform.  You'll see that the author is a fan of the CMMG product and he has some of the best information put together in one piece with lot's of pictures and accessory products that he rec's for your build or purchase. 

HERE: http://forums.officer.com/forums/showthread.php?t=81462


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## arizonaguide (Jun 13, 2009)

Without even looking, that's J-somebody over at O-com, huh?
That is one of the best threads EVER on the AR...I do need to read that.
Thanks, Bro. Good stuff.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 13, 2009)

*Jwise*! Yup, great thread that one. Fantastic link, 82!
Since I've got the other AR to make NICE!
This one will be my short range "CQB/Household/cave style thrasher" beat-to-shit-and-don't-worry-about-it gun.

Sorta like the other a "Kimber" and this one a "glock", if that makes sense...(in AR language). Notice I forgot to capitalize glock. ;)


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## arizonaguide (Jun 13, 2009)

In reviewing the basic AR operation for my attempt to build out this lower, I ran across these. Probably "old hat" for most of you, but WTF..I thought it was cool.

CLICK HERE for video from the BUSHMASTER SITE, or:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZipq6D6D9k"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FZipq6D6D9k[/ame]
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eemyE2JQ5W4&feature=related"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eemyE2JQ5W4&feature=related[/ame]


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## koz (Jun 13, 2009)

Here's how I'd build it for a lightweight "Glock" AR... 

Starting from butt-stock:

Magpul CTR or MOE stock.
Mil Spec buffer tube. 
H1 or H2 buffer.
Magpul MIAD or MOE grip.  (If you get the MIAD, you can get the full kit with the built in trigger guard. )
Geissele SSA trigger 
basic LPK parts except for the RRA star selector - from Brownells
14.5 M4 barrel - if you can find one or Bravo co 16" 
YHM Light Weight Free Float forearm or the VTAC handguard.  
YHM Solid A2 Rear Sight 
Your choice of either standard A2 front sight or flip up front sight. 
You could put a low profile gas block for the 14.5" carbine and get a mid length forearm... 

But it's your baby...


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## 8'Duece (Jun 13, 2009)

Things that are non negotiable in my AR builds: 

1. 4150 Mil Spec barrels with 1/7 twist.  Even better is M249 grade barrels with 249 chrome lining. (Noveske N4 uppers and barrels) Stainless Steel is great but there is a weigtht trade off with a heavy stainless barrel.  The 4150 CMV is preferred over Chrome moly commercial barrels. 

2. Large M4 cut feed ramps.  

3. NATO 556 chamber.  .223 is fine but if your going to battle and NATO ammunition is only available your shit out of luck with a .223 only chambered barrel. 

4. HPT and MPI tested parts. Barrels and BCG groups. 

5. 7075 grade recievers.  I'm just picky that way. 

6. Carbine gas system is fine but if I can improve it with a 9" mid length I'm going to save the wear and tear on my system. 

7. Free Float rail system.  No two piece systems for me, unless it's the DD Omega rail, which a free float in a two piece system. 

8. High quality optics and mounts.  No cheap knock offs from Wal Mart or Meirs. Read "Tasco" 

9. A3 flat top upper recievers.  Self explanatory.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 13, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> 3. NATO 556 chamber. .223 is fine but if your going to battle and NATO ammunition is only available your shit out of luck with a .223 only chambered barrel.


 
So, 5.56 is the more "forgiving"? In other words chambered in 5.56 will usually shoot .223, but not the other way around, correct?




> 8. High quality optics and mounts. No cheap knock offs from Wal Mart or Meirs. Read "Tasco"


Is this a mandatory $500 item (aimpoint/eotech), or are there somewhat less expensive options that are still viable/quality? Thanks 82.



			
				Koz said:
			
		

> 14.5 M4 barrel - if you can find one or Bravo co 16"


Pretty sure I'm limited to the 16" minimum length in Arizona, but I will verify that. Thanks Koz.

I appreciate the guidance, and appologize if somewhat basic knowlege/pain in the ass.
:2c:


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## AWP (Jun 13, 2009)

I know we had a thread somewhere about working on an M4, but this one is excellent.

Keep tracking gents, this is some good shit.


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## koz (Jun 13, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Is this a mandatory $500 item (aimpoint/eotech), or are there somewhat less expensive options that are still viable/quality? Thanks 82.
> 
> Pretty sure I'm limited to the 16" minimum length in Arizona, but I will verify that. Thanks Koz.
> 
> ...



The optic - I LOVE LOVE my Aimpoint T-1.  It's expensive.  But for a KISS rifle you can just say with irons - get an optic when you can afford it.  Just my opinion- with optics, spend a little now, you'll spend a lot later.  I've got an EO-Tech, Trijicon reflex, Leupold CQT, Aimpoint M68, and an Aimpoint T-1 sitting in my safe.  I'll pick the T-1 every time.  I've got one of the Sig optics heading my way in a couple weeks - it's about the same size as the T-1.  I'll let you know what I think.  Aimpoint is also making another optic (I think H-1) which doesn't have the night vision setting but is a cheaper.

Barrels - 16" is a federal NFA thing, not just AZ.  But you get a 14.5 with a YHM, Surefire, PWS, etc.. flash hider and pin it - you've got a 16" total length.  We can talk about this later if need be.  Google weld and pin flash hiders and there's lots of info about it.  

You're not being a pain in the ass.  I can talk guns with anyone -


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## 8'Duece (Jun 13, 2009)

Check your state laws for SBR uppers. (short barreled rifle) 

Here in Kentucky we are NFA friendly and can purchase the shorter upper reciever groups and then get the Form 1 approved.  You can possess the short barrel upper but you cannot pin it to your lower and fire it till you get your Form 1 approved. 

I've already got another BCM 11.5" inch upper withe DD Lite 10" rail in my closet for another registered SBR lower. 

Check your states NFA laws first before you opt for anything less than the 16" pre ban style with removable flash hider.


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## koz (Jun 13, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> Things that are non negotiable in my AR builds:
> 
> 1. 4150 Mil Spec barrels with 1/7 twist.  Even better is M249 grade barrels with 249 chrome lining. (Noveske N4 uppers and barrels) Stainless Steel is great but there is a weigtht trade off with a heavy stainless barrel.  The 4150 CMV is preferred over Chrome moly commercial barrels.
> 
> ...



I'm with 82nd on most of this stuff -  However I like the 1/8 twist barrels... 
I also like the wylde chamber.  Noveske makes some great barrels. Rainier, Larue and WOA also have good barrels
Bravo also the 7075 upper receivers in stock.  I've got several of these

I'll never buy another carbine length when I can buy a mid-length.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 13, 2009)

MUCH appreciated KOZ/82!!! :cool: I've learned a TON in the last few days!
Looks like plenty of time to learn, cuz freakin lower parts from RRA and Brownells are out of stock. (of course I should have known that!)


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## koz (Jun 13, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> MUCH appreciated KOZ/82!!! :cool: I've learned a TON in the last few days!
> Looks like plenty of time to learn, cuz freakin lower parts from RRA and Brownells are out of stock. (of course I should have known that!)



What lower parts are you looking for... I may ;) know where you can acquire some parts.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 13, 2009)

koz said:


> What lower parts are you looking for... I may ;) know where you can acquire some parts.


Well, before I started reading/listening to you guys I was just going to grab anything...but now I'm thinking I'd like to get something that's a decent "name" brand (probably better metal/springs) of some kind for the CMMG stripped lower (something about smaller "not Colt" holes/pins) right?
:cool:

So, I was sticking to the RRA or Brownells sites...but Brownells is completely out of stock on lower parts kits, and RRA says "get on the list with your credit card...and someday we will send it when we can".
:doh:

I think I will order that RRA Star Safetly selector though, and maybe a Hogue grip...to replace the Standard grip that comes with the kit (typically).
I also liked the looks of that guy in Colorado Springs trigger work, so I was gonna email him and (maybe) get the trigger parts from him (with the work already done).
If I do that (trigger) and then get a Carbine type stock with the Buffer parts, I may just need to get the "repair kit" for the ballance of the lower parts. I have to look and see what's what.
Still sorting it out, and learning like a MF!


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## koz (Jun 14, 2009)

Here's a good start for in stock stuff- I think the hardest thing to find is bolt and bolt carrier..  I wouldn't wait too long on a barrel.


CMMG lower Brownells in stock

Magpul MIAD full kit black 

High standard MIL spec extension tube

Bravo co upper receiver w/ M4 cuts

Bravo MPI & HPT 410 barrel 16" midlength

RRA star selector

Colt H2 buffer

Bushmaster Bolt carrier  - I'm not sure the quality of Bushmaster parts. 82nd can you shed light on this?

Trust me on the MIAD grip.. you can customize the backstrap for the best fit to your hand.. I'll never buy another grip.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 14, 2009)

We have a "repair kit" at work (in stock) but I'm still figuring out what's in it, and if it's "cheap shit" to begin with. We've been outta stock on Complete Lower Parts Kits at the shop for a month (same brand, CAA or something, and maybe shit anyway).
:cool:

That looks like the exact same lower I have at that link from Brownells. Mines the stripped lower, so looking for just the "parts kit".
Thanks for the links though Koz!

Question, what are the options for a barrel without the front sight? I don't fully understand the gas system, but I DO know I'm going without a front sight eventually, and would rather just get it without one to start with. But is the gas system interconnected w/part of the front sight assembly? I've got some learning to do...but I'm not ashamed to admit it!
My plan is a flat-top with (non-magnified) optics (only).

Yup it is the same one. CMMG, Mod4 SA.  Got it (stripped) for $115


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## koz (Jun 14, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> We have a "repair kit" at work (in stock) but I'm still figuring out what's in it, and if it's "cheap shit" to begin with. We've been outta stock on Complete Lower Parts Kits at the shop for a month (same brand, CAA or something, and maybe shit anyway).
> :cool:
> 
> That looks like the exact same lower I have at that link from Brownells. Mines the stripped lower, so looking for just the "parts kit".
> ...



Most LPK's have DPMS parts.   Call Fulton Armory and see if they have one in stock... 

As far as the barrel without a front sight: You'll need a gas block and a gas tube (part that interconnects the gas block to the receiver) - Again I may can help here with the gas tube.  The normal front sight on most M16/M4/AR's is the gas block as well.  Many people now are going with a low profile gas block and a folding front sight on the quad-rail (forearm).

The barrel has a small hole where the front sight/gas block goes..  The gas block has a small on and a hole where the gas tube then slides in and is pinned to the gas block.  The gas block goes down the top of the barrel to the receiver and actually the bolt carrier meets up with it.  Gas comes out the barrel, to the gas block to the gas tube, then into the bolt carrier which pushes the bolt carrier assembly back - thus ejecting the empty brass and cycling a new round.  This gas is what makes chamber dirty and why the piston driven systems have become popular.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 14, 2009)

koz said:


> As far as the barrel without a front sight: You'll need a gas block and a gas tube (part that interconnects the gas block to the receiver) - Again I may can help here with the gas tube. The normal front sight on most M16/M4/AR's is the gas block as well. Many people now are going with a low profile gas block and a folding front sight on the quad-rail (forearm).


Yup, I thought it was kinda tied in, yet I see many at work that have the "gas block". That's what I was leaning toward...Optics, and a fold down rig of some kind for backup.



> The barrel has a small hole where the front sight/gas block goes.. The gas block has a small on and a hole where the gas tube then slides in and is pinned to the gas block. The gas block goes down the top of the barrel to the receiver and actually the bolt carrier meets up with it. Gas comes out the barrel, to the gas block to the gas tube, then into the bolt carrier which pushes the bolt carrier assembly back - thus ejecting the empty brass and cycling a new round. This gas is what makes chamber dirty and why the piston driven systems have become popular.


Yup! I was finally figuring that out after finding those animations (linked above). Shit, the last I remember of all this was on the old USAF M-16's circa 1980's, so it's been _awhile_ since. :cool: Thanks Bro! Good stuff.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 14, 2009)

Looks like that Fulton Armory link is excellent for parts for M1Garands and such also.
Here's the link everybody: http://www.fulton-armory.com/M16.htm
Good stuff KOZ! Great link.


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## 8'Duece (Jun 14, 2009)

koz said:


> Here's a good start for in stock stuff- I think the hardest thing to find is bolt and bolt carrier..  I wouldn't wait too long on a barrel.
> 
> 
> CMMG lower Brownells in stock
> ...




As for the Bushy BCG I can't say, never had a Bushy or their BCG group.  Although through the years I've seen what I would call a QC issue with Bushmaster almost all over the board.  Some of that is just users on the net and some are actually rifles that I've seen fail and not feed and extract when nothing seems to missing or wrong with the weapon.  I'm just not a fan of Bushmaster.  That's just my limited experience. 

With that said I would stick to LMT, RRA, CMMG, and and BCM stuff.  Bravo Company Manufacturing is good kit and little known with the non-military AR crowd.  Most are just purchasing anything off the rack and I'm not a fan of that response to the current political climate.  To each their own I guess. 

As for grips and such I too am a Magpul MIAD grip lover with the "Enhanced" trigger guard.  It's easy to install and doesn't require you to punch pin in the rear pin as with a standard trigger guard.  Has the removable back straps and fits my hands much better than standard grips.  These too are personal preference.  Ergo grips are nice, Hogue, etc. 

I like LaRue Stealth upper reciever groups also, but they are not cheap.  But, if you want some of the best than your going to have put out some money to acquire the right parts and accessories to build a rifle worth your time. IMHO

Some will tell you that just about any recievers are decent.  That's not necessarily false since only a few companies manufacture recievers for most of the commercial market.  But, if your with a rec'd name brand out of 7075 grade then your in the high end market. 

I'll post more when I'm not tired.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 14, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> I like LaRue Stealth upper reciever groups also, but they are not cheap. But, if you want some of the best than your going to have put out some money to acquire the right parts and accessories to build a rifle worth your time. IMHO
> 
> I'll post more when I'm not tired.


True fact.  I want to emphasize "dependability" more than "accuracy", and with an emphasis on being a closer range weapon...and mostly I just don't want to have to repeat purchase because I bought garbage the first time.

For example, I can get parts kits (etc) through work, but they are CAA parts, and I'm not sure about their quality. As it turns out I'm getting a Fulton Armory LPK from a friend, and I'm more comfortable with that. And it's a basic parts kit without a trigger, so this will help "motivate" me to go ahead and get a good trigger. 

This is getting to be a great thread folks, and I've learned much in the last couple days!  KEEP it coming!!!  I need to know what I'm selling (and drooling over) at the shop, and I knew this would be a great way to learn the "modern" AR platform. I have been surprised at some of the things I've learned (about Bushmaster, for example)...and didn't realize that Colt had slightly different hardware in places. Already, you guys have saved me much grief (read that $$$). :2c:


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## arizonaguide (Jun 15, 2009)

Okay, lotsa reading today, and one question still: Gas systems?

I am thinking I want a 16" barrel, with no front sight (flattop, with optics only, and fold-down BUIS (front and rear) mounted on the rails (front=grip rail or whatever)).
So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I need a 16" barrel (or 14.5" with a welded flash hider bringing it to 16") and that will come with a mid-length gas system already?

And, with that midlength system, I can use a lowprofile gas block, and a "free floating" front grip with a rail for the fold down front sight?

Even after reading, I'm still confused about the barrel/gas system/front grip-gas block options.
:cool:

And on the subject of barrels, I want one with a 5.56 chamber (dependability not accuracy), chrome lined (or stainless), M4 feed ramps, and a 1-7 twist, correct, to be able to shoot (stabilize) the HEAVIEST bullets available, correct?
That I think I DO have figured out.


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## 8'Duece (Jun 15, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Okay, lotsa reading today, and one question still: Gas systems?
> 
> I am thinking I want a 16" barrel, with no front sight (flattop, with optics only, and fold-down BUIS (front and rear) mounted on the rails (front=grip rail or whatever)).
> So, correct me if I'm wrong, but I need a 16" barrel (or 14.5" with a welded flash hider bringing it to 16") and that will come with a mid-length gas system already?
> ...



Yes, yes and yes !!

Most of the commercial market upper reciever groups will have a carbine gas system, but you can build or find a mid length gas system if you look hard enough for them.  Google is your friend. 

Your barrle will have to be cut with the gas port for mid length system so look for barrels with the "mid length" gas port for use with a low profile gas block and then look into the a rail system that is 10" for cover over the gas block. 

You can then use Troy front and rear flip up iron sights on your front and rear rail and then add your optics once you decide what what you desire. 

Gas tubes are cheap/inexpensive and you purchase them alone or have a mid-length gas system purchased on with the upper reciever group.  Have a look at BCM and LMT. 

HTH

82ndtrooper


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## arizonaguide (Jun 15, 2009)

*Too much FUN with this!!!*

Fuckin-A! I think, thanks to you and Koz, I'm _starting_ to get this shit down! :cool: I'm good on the gas tube, now just need to find the right barrel to go with it! ;)
Starting to understand the options now, and what goes with what (to look for).
Thanks folks!!! BIG time.






Now to finalize a stock choice! :cool: Leaning toward the Magpul CTR buttstock (w/ rubber buttpad) and will go with your suggestions of the MIAD grip choice.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 15, 2009)

*A case of 23 for you...(I drank one!)*






 :cool::)


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## 8'Duece (Jun 15, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> :cool::)




Scroll down here for a CMMG middy upper: http://cmmginc.secure-mall.com/shop/?cart=1717936&cat=27&


Good kit ! and you replace the handguards later with a rail system.  It's a 14.5" barrel with a pinned flash hider which makes its legal for ya.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 15, 2009)

Sounds like 82nd and Koz got you taken care of here; I just wanted to add a lil tid bit.

Barrel twist is probably your most important decision of all, I watched too many guys go for an all mil-spec blah-blah-balh M4 thinking the Mil has the best shit. We simply don’t and one of the biggest damn problems IMO is the barrel twist. 1/7 was picked so that it would stabilize the M856 tracer round, not the M855 (ss109 ball). 1/8 – 1/9 will stabilize the 55gr-80gr bullets a lot better. Personally a wylde chamber 1/8 twist barrel with an 11 degree target crown and I would reload nothing but 77gr match ammo. You can still run all the normal market stuff and NATO ammo (M193 – M855) through it, but you have the best degree of accuracy coming from your barrel. 

Ammo needs to be matched up to the barrel for your best reliability and accuracy, brass should be ran through the same chamber (hints reload) and once you find a bullet that works the best with your barrel, your data will become more consistent. The reliability comes from multi areas, but accuracy is in the barrel/ ammo. To me these are the most important, b/c if your gun runs, but you can hit shit “you are still fucked”!

Now if this is just a truck gun, room-broom, don’t give a fuck about it “I’m not going to get clean it” AR, then go chrome molly coat 1/9 and buy a shit load of wolf steal case 55gr ammo. 

What ever you do, do not go above a 1/9 twist for any reason and do not run lacquered covered ammo through your rifle. ;)


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## 8'Duece (Jun 15, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> Sounds like 82nd and Koz got you taken care of here; I just wanted to add a lil tid bit.
> 
> Barrel twist is probably your most important decision of all, I watched too many guys go for an all mil-spec blah-blah-balh M4 thinking the Mil has the best shit. We simply don’t and one of the biggest damn problems IMO is the barrel twist. 1/7 was picked so that it would stabilize the M856 tracer round, not the M855 (ss109 ball). 1/8 – 1/9 will stabilize the 55gr-80gr bullets a lot better. Personally a wylde chamber 1/8 twist barrel with an 11 degree target crown and I would reload nothing but 77gr match ammo. You can still run all the normal market stuff and NATO ammo (M193 – M855) through it, but you have the best degree of accuracy coming from your barrel.
> 
> ...



Great post !!!

I just like the tighter twist because I run heavier ammo throuth my AR's, but JAB makes a great point with the comprimises between 1/8 and 1/9 twist rates. 

I'm just a heavy load guy. ;)


I would like to add that the faster twist rates are not suitable for all rounds.  For instance my local SWAT team insists on a 1/7 twist rate with frangible round.  What ? it's already franging out of the bore before it get's to it's target.  There is a threshold to frangible and it's not with a faster twist rate. :uhh: 

At least that's my experience. 

.02


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 15, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> I would like to add that the faster twist rates are not suitable for all rounds.  For instance my local SWAT team insists on a 1/7 twist rate with frangible round.  What ? it's already franging out of the bore before it get's to it's target.  There is a threshold to frangible and it's not with a faster twist rate. :uhh:



Well I am sure they have a good reason for that! Must be a SWAT thing ;) :doh:

For a majority of off the shelf loads, 1/9 is going to give you the friendly medium. Personally the 1/7.75 - 1/ 8 with MK262 or a reload equivalent has been the best match up of ammo to barrel I have found. Especially when your brass is between the 2nd to 4th reload, after 4 reloads it should be tossed. Basically the brass molds it self to the chamber of your rifle and makes up for small unnoticeable defects that only come to light at distance.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 15, 2009)

I think I hear what you guys are saying, and thanks for the link 82. I was actually thinking about a CMMG upper as well, as I had heard good things...if they have what I'm looking for. I'll search that out in the AM.

I DO like the heavy round choices, and even though it WILL be a bit of a "trasher" gun, I still want to put something durable in it for a barrel, and will only run brass case stuff through it. We've been getting a lot of folks coming into the shop with WOLF steel cases stuck in the chamber...(maybe from extreme heat of AZ?).
So, my rule will be NO steel case/laquered ammo whatsoever. And (for sure) chrome-lined to also help prevent any stuck cases, as well as barrel life.
I probably will NOT reload, as just too much other stuff going...(ie: Pistol will still have more focus/training).

So, is 1-7 twist (16") still okay for the lighter rounds? Because what I will probably do is shoot mostly lighter FMJ (like whitebox or umc) for fun and classes, but put the heavier rounds into it for defensive purposes. Is 1-8 more tolerant of the variety of rounds, yet will shoot ALL of them with acceptable stability? Versitility and reliability will be MORE important to me than "target/match" accuracy for THIS gun. Pretty much preparing for only out to close range (probably much less<350yds) "combat accuracy" (urban/zombie/neighborhood/house-to-house/kidnapping trouble) scenarios...but super-reliable.

Will 1-8 handle FMJ in the 55 to 77grain (or bigger) reliably? 
That will probably be all I shoot. Pretty much all off-the-shelf FMJ.
:)


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## 8'Duece (Jun 15, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> I think I hear what you guys are saying, and thanks for the link 82. I was actually thinking about a CMMG upper as well, as I had heard good things...if they have what I'm looking for. I'll search that out in the AM.
> 
> I DO like the heavy round choices, and even though it WILL be a bit of a "trasher" gun, I still want to put something durable in it for a barrel, and will only run brass case stuff through it. We've been getting a lot of folks coming into the shop with WOLF steel cases stuck in the chamber...(maybe from extreme heat of AZ?).
> So, my rule will be NO steel case/laquered ammo whatsoever. And (for sure) chrome-lined to also help prevent any stuck cases, as well as barrel life.
> ...



My Les Baer is 1/8 twist and it's a great comprise for heavier loads.  Although I still prefer the 1/7 twist rate you cant' go wrong with a 1/8  or 1/9 rate. 

As JAB points out, it's about what load you are going to shoot and going to shoot for accuracy at range.   With lighter loads your going to over stabilize the round with a faster twist rate and have the "hem and yaw" at 100 meters and not hit shit unless your load is accurized to the barrel.  With a canelure load it's going to break quicker than you may want and cause a failure to hit the target at longer ranges. it will cause alot of damage but may not be the hit your looking for at long range.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 15, 2009)

Got it! Thanks folks. :) Looks like 1-8 or 1-9 for maximum versatility. Okay, I think I've got the "list" squared away in my head now, time to start shopping around!!! See what I can find!
:cool:


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## 08steeda (Jun 15, 2009)

I just picked up a DPMS BA-AP416 which is a 16 inch with 1x9 twist. Got it for $250.00 Brand New in the box from a buddy who never got around to building his new rig. He got into hot water with the wife - bought an XD-45 and had to sell some stuff to cover it!!!

Any thoughts on DPMS and specifically this upper?

Arizona - this has been a great thread. I always seem to learn more and more from these guys too!

Thanks 82, KOZ and JAB!!!


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## arizonaguide (Jun 15, 2009)

08steeda said:


> I just picked up a DPMS BA-AP416 which is a 16 inch with 1x9 twist. Got it for $250.00 Brand New in the box from a buddy who never got around to building his new rig. He got into hot water with the wife - bought an XD-45 and had to sell some stuff to cover it!!!
> 
> ...this has been a great thread. I always seem to learn more and more from these guys too!
> 
> Thanks 82, KOZ and JAB!!!


 
I second that 08! And, what a great deal on the upper! Hope I can find something similar! :)


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## koz (Jun 15, 2009)

AZ - For a fairly inexpensive upper, here's one you may be interested in.

http://www.pkfirearms.com/content/1/20/107/9

_ PKF 16 inch M4 Complete Upper

Features a lightweight military M4 profile barrel by ER Shaw, in a 16" length, 4140 steel, 5.56 NATO, 1/9 twist rate barrel, forged steel front sight tower with bayonet lug, and 1/2x28 RH threaded muzzle.  Built on a milspec A3 receiver with M4 feed ramps.  $495 _

Includes AR15 bolt group assembly and Forged Charging handle.

The guys at PK are solid and ship out quickly.  
I'm not sure if the bolt assembly is HPT or MPI, you'd have to ask that.  
This is not a mid-length but a carbine length..  But you could still get a free-float handguard and lo-pro gas block later on...


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## arizonaguide (Jun 15, 2009)

Damn, gotta let the $$$ catch up! :) Got a line on one at work, also. But, it's a "Global" and I've not heard of them..so I think I may pass on it.
But, things are starting to come together, thanks to you folks.


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## koz (Jun 15, 2009)

Pic #1 - My KISS rifle.  Welded and pinned 14.5" barrel with 1/9" twist.  Knight's RAS.  Bill Springfield Trigger, Magpul MOE stock and grip.  CMMG lower, BCM upper w/M4 cuts, BCM bolt carrier assy.  H2 buffer with Silicon springs. Only two things I plan on adding to it are the enhanced trigger guard and the RRA star selector.  Both are sitting on the workbench.  :uhh:


Pic #2 - This is for educational purposes.  Carbine gas length system on the rifle.  Mid-length gas tube, then Rifle length gas tube.  

Pic #3 - how far the gas tube goes into the upper receiver.  

Pic #4 - Gas block fun.  Standard A2 sight assembly.  The stainless gas block is a Noveske from their Afghan barrel.  The black gas block was a A2 gas block that met it's fate on a dremel and a grinder.  Cheapest lo-pro gas block and honestly it was kinda fun to make.


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## koz (Jun 15, 2009)

Pic #1 - Rear BUIS (Back Up Iron Sight) - used to be a Colt carry handle and also met a dremel, grinder, and bead-blaster.  Who uses a carry handle anyway?

Pic #2 - Rifle length gas system with lo-pro gas block.  18" 6.5 G barrel with Larue 13.2" rail.  *it's about to be broken down, bead-blasted and cerakoted..*  You can see the gas block just in front of the rail.  

AZ - if you went with a carbine length system and lo-pro gas block, you could get a mid-length free-float rail and this is what it would look like :cool:

Pic #3 - Another gas block option.  YHM flip up gas block.  Some people don't like these are there are only screws (rather than taper pins) holding it in place. I've never had a problem.


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## koz (Jun 15, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Damn, gotta let the $$$ catch up! :) Got a line on one at work, also. But, it's a "Global" and I've not heard of them..so I think I may pass on it.
> But, things are starting to come together, thanks to you folks.



Global is probably Global Tactical Supply   It used to be known as Denny's guns.  He's good shit..


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## arizonaguide (Jun 15, 2009)

KOZ, great pic's and it really helps me understand the gas block/front sight assembly a bit better. Outstanding. I was looking at work today and noticed that (as yours shows) that they can have a small rail on top, allowing a place for a fold down front sight, or whatever. That's EXACTLY what I want to go with...a completely flat top, front to back, EXCEPT the front handguard. No, front sight except a foldown on the low profile gas block rail (if possible). 

I'm thinking a completely flat top except the optic, and fold down BUIS...and a forward handguard similar to this, only in a midlength.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 15, 2009)

koz said:


> Global is probably Global Tactical Supply It used to be known as Denny's guns. He's good shit..


If it's the same guy, the cool thing is he's local here, and about 5min from the house. Think what a pain in the ass I could be then! ;)
I don't know if that's him Koz, this upper was actually manufactured by Global Industries...local to Arizona here.
Either way, another great link (and pictures above).
:cool:



> YHM flip up gas block. Some people don't like these are there are only screws (rather than taper pins) holding it in place. I've never had a problem.


Yes, that's close! That could be it. I have to compare that to a Troy folding front sight.


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## koz (Jun 15, 2009)

GTS / Denny is in MO.  Not familiar with Global then...


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## JJOIFVET (Jun 15, 2009)

I have that lower, it is working fine for me, shot about 20k rounds from my gun and no malfunctions.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 15, 2009)

JJ, what does it say on it EXACTLY? It's made in Goodyear Arizona, right?


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## arizonaguide (Jun 16, 2009)

Well, I'm snapping at the bit waiting for friday to send $$ off for my lower parts...so, I'm going through the diagrams and memorizing the parts, and making sure I understand their assembly. I know most of you probably know this stuff by heart, but here's the diagrams anyway. Cheers.






And, page #2: (you can Right Click, Save Picture As, to save these to the desktop...)


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 16, 2009)

My wife hates me! Im drunk!!!!!!!!!!


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## arizonaguide (Jun 16, 2009)

Yeah, but WE love ya, Bro! >:{


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## arizonaguide (Jun 16, 2009)

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZJ6DGUtX3zQ&feature=related[/ame]
Cheers, Bro!


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## arizonaguide (Jun 17, 2009)

Here is a link to some great videos at Brownells.com on AR platform build.
They are FREE videos that can be watched at the link here:
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?x=v&p=0&t=1&i=1103
Both lower reciever assembly and Upper assembly are covered, as well as much more.
Cheers!


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## arizonaguide (Jun 20, 2009)

Well, I got poking around with the pricing, and found the AR Build thang on Brownells.
Here's my basic plan. I know it's pretty plain...but that's the Keep It Simple concept.
SO, here's the "general" overall GOAL:






Here's the link to the program:
http://www.ar15builder.com/


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## arizonaguide (Jun 25, 2009)

KOZ! Package arrived! THANKS Bro!!! :cool:


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## JJOIFVET (Jun 25, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Well, I got poking around with the pricing, and found the AR Build thang on Brownells.
> Here's my basic plan. I know it's pretty plain...but that's the Keep It Simple concept.
> SO, here's the "general" overall GOAL:
> 
> ...



Nice looking gun, are you going to shoot any competitions with it?


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## JJOIFVET (Jun 25, 2009)

What price range are you looking at? Larue makes a nice gun too. They are pricey though.


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## arizonaguide (Jun 25, 2009)

Thanks JJ! No just for screwing around...short range zombie/mexican invasion/around the neighborhood stuff. ;) It's going to be a 16" barrel. VERY simple and plain.
Iron sights for now, RedDot of some kind later. 

Mostly doing it to afford it one (paycheck) piece at a time, and to REALLY learn the platform to help with work.

Lots of help from Koz, 82nd, and JAB, in keeping me out of trouble and guidance in systems operation, tricks, and shortcuts. Scored a lower parts kit from a friend (above) and just getting ready to put it together (the lower!).

TOOOOOOO MUCH FUN! and learning a shitload! I Already seem to know more than the Boss at the Job (who's seems confused about pistons/gas tubes/etc). So, the "build" is already paying off!! I already get all the AR questions refered to ME, and I don't really know shit, compared to most of you guys...but I'm studying/learning pretty quickly. It helps because we (help) take care of several local Law Enforcement departments, and many of the Sheriff's Dept. folks. Great people doing a difficult JOB here. THANK GOD for the Lots of help and guidance here! I just PASS IT ALONG to other brothers.
:cool:


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## JJOIFVET (Jun 25, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Thanks JJ! No just for screwing around...short range zombie/mexican invasion/around the neighborhood stuff. ;) It's going to be a 16" barrel. VERY simple and plain.
> Iron sights for now, RedDot of some kind later.
> 
> Mostly doing it to afford it one (paycheck) piece at a time, and to REALLY learn the platform to help with work.
> ...



Bro, I have a book at work that is a M4/M16 pocket guide. It is from a former Delta guy. Here is a site you can pick it up at. I highly recommend it. 
http://www.bhigear.com/m16m4handbook-bymikepannone.aspx


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## arizonaguide (Jun 25, 2009)

That's what I'm talking about! Lotsa GREAT help here.
Thanks JJ! :cool: Another great link!


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## arizonaguide (Jun 26, 2009)

*LOWER RECEIVER PARTS ASSEMBLY*

:)

Here is a link that has the step-by-step assembly instructions for your lower receiver, for beginners!
If you have never assembled a lower receiver part-by-part, these step-by-step videos make it very easy. 
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/video/how-to-assemble-the-lower-receiver-on-your-own-ar-15-rifle-267084/view/

There is also a link here: http://dynamicarmament.com/items/ar...-kit-d-p-m-s-ar-15-lower-parts-kit-detail.htm
that I used to help identify each small part for each step.
http://www.wonderhowto.com/how-to/v...receiver-on-your-own-ar-15-rifle-267084/view/ 
The tools I needed were a simple pair of needle nose pliers, a rubber-tipped C-clamp (instead of the magazine block), a small punch, large common (flat) screwdriver, and a small ball peen hammer. It went VERY smoothly following the steps in the videos.


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## arizonaguide (Jul 9, 2009)

I found an excellent M4 Animated Diagram




CLICK for Animated Diagram herethen click on "compare to M4")
http://www.armytimes.com/projects/flash/2007_02_20_carbine/


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