# New Reports Prove Multivitamins are a 'Waste' of Money



## RackMaster (Dec 17, 2013)

I consider this groundbreaking and I hope governments use it to educate the masses about this huge drain on peoples bank accounts and lives in general.  I know of a lot of people that reach for vitamins instead of buying/cooking/eating quality food to begin with.  Everyone wants a quick miracle fix but there isn't one.  Living a balanced life is all that's needed; eat right, get exercise and get lots of sleep.  



> *Multivitamins a ‘waste’ of money for general population, reports suggest*
> Reuters
> 
> Published Tuesday, Dec. 17 2013, 7:52 AM EST
> ...


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 17, 2013)

Too many people don't understand that supplements are designed to do just that...*supplement* an already healthy diet.  I drink protein shakes and I take multi-vitamins and will continue to do so.  My 3 meals every day are also vastly more healthy than probably 90% of the US population.  Making those meals becomes a time consuming pain in the ass sometimes, but I understand that I'm not going to see the same benefits from anything that comes out of a bottle in pill or powder form.

ETA: also seems to be quite a bit of contradiction in that article.  
-Vitamins are a waste
-Vitamins aren't so bad
-We shouldn't spend money researching vitamins


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## CQB (Dec 17, 2013)

Is there a difference between taking a multi and a specific vitamin, say a D, E or B12? IMO a multi is a blunderbuss which delivers only a fraction of a daily intake of any particular vitamin as to deliver the correct daily amount of all across the spectrum would mean a hellava huge pill. Concentrated doses of particular vitamins for a particular ailment can assist in correction of a problem.


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## AWP (Dec 17, 2013)

1) The pencil-necked one is loosing his mind over this I'm sure. If ya'll don't know who I'm talking about, sorry the joke's lost on you. Nothing personal.
2) I take an immune system booster which is part multivitamin, part "a bunch of other stuff" and it works. There has to be some benefit from orally administered vitamin/ mineral supplements.
3) Give it a year or 3 and a new study will come out telling us this study is wrong.


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## Hillclimb (Dec 17, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> ETA: also seems to be quite a bit of contradiction in that article.
> -Vitamins are a waste
> -Vitamins aren't so bad
> -We shouldn't spend money researching vitamins



I agree, and it needs a new title.

What I got from the article was, "because the multivitamin failed to improve memory, and prevent a second heart attack: it's a waste of money." I would've like to have seen them go into bio-availability of powders/liquids/capsules/tabs, fillers in powder/gel tablets, side effects of the digestive aids, other diseases, maybe ingredient profiles or individual minerals/vitamins, etc.

Then at the end of the article it says:



> Research shows Americans often don’t get all recommended nutrients from their diets, and that a multivitamin helps fill those gaps, MacKay told Reuters Health.
> 
> “That’s reason alone that a multivitamin should be consumed,” he said.



Well no shit I take it to fill in nutrient gaps. I didn't pick it up off the shelf and say, "time to play brain games and prevent heart attacks."

I'd like to know which multivitamins they used in their studies, there's a lot of factors involved when choosing a multi. I wonder if they used the MD Prescriptives Essentials 5 in 1, since doctors were involved in the first study. That particular brand uses Albion Chelates which provide a high degree of quality and bio availability. You basically need to goto the doctors office to get it.


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## TLDR20 (Dec 17, 2013)

I take vitamin D , fish oil and glucosamine everyday. Makes me feel good inside.


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## RackMaster (Dec 17, 2013)

I take vitamin pig daily and I'm fucking awesome!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 17, 2013)

I told mom M&Ms were a better investment....


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## CQB (Dec 17, 2013)

Torture the data enough and it will reveal its secrets


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## LibraryLady (Dec 18, 2013)

Lies, damn lies and statistics...

LL


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## Sendero (Dec 18, 2013)

TLDR20 said:


> I take vitamin D , fish oil and glucosamine everyday. Makes me feel good inside.



Agreed. Maybe it's the placebo effect but when I take fish oil and glucosamine I "feel" that my joints can tell the difference. Especially when I'm putting my joints under stress. They call them supplements for a reason and not nutritional replacement. It won't fix a terrible diet or replace a healthy one.


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## pardus (Dec 18, 2013)

Glucosamine, Chondroitin and MSM fixed my fucked up knees. Seriously, changed my life.
I take fish oil daily and other vitamins etc... when I feel the need i.e. Vit C when I'm sick. 

Be aware though that certain vitamins/minerals taken in excess will build up harmfully in the body. I don't recall exactly (do your own research) but certain vitamins have be linked/proven to cause stones and other bad things if taken in excess.







Alcohol and bacon on the other hand have been proven to make you invincible.


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## CQB (Dec 19, 2013)

Vits A&D I think there Pard. Anyone?


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## Crusader74 (Dec 19, 2013)

I take B12, magnesium+zinc, flax seed oil  and a spirulina and chlorella supp every morning.  Feel Awesome!


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## x SF med (Dec 19, 2013)

B12, niacin, fish oil, D, all on the advice of my doc...


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## Hillclimb (Dec 19, 2013)

TLDR20 said:


> I take vitamin D , fish oil and glucosamine everyday. Makes me feel good inside.





x SF med said:


> B12, niacin, fish oil, D, all on the advice of my doc...





CQB said:


> Vits A&D I think there Pard. Anyone?







> VitaminD and muscle function: is there a threshold in the relation?
> 
> AuthorsJanssen HC, et al. Show allJournal
> J Am Med Dir Assoc. 2013 Aug;14(8):627.e13-8. doi: 10.1016/j.jamda.2013.05.012. Epub 2013 Jun 27.
> ...



For all you vitamin D junkies.

There's a study on vitamin C that I can't find, but pretty much they found that 15 skittles a day was enough vitamin C to fight off scurvy.

I can dig up more studies, but I'm on the same boat as you guys: fish oil and vitamin D.


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## x SF med (Dec 19, 2013)

Hillclimb said:


> For all you vitamin D junkies.
> 
> There's a study on vitamin C that I can't find, but pretty much they found that 15 skittles a day was enough vitamin C to fight off scurvy.
> 
> I can dig up more studies, but I'm on the same boat as you guys: fish oil and vitamin D.



Capsaicin and vitamin c are both found in hot peppers...  both are good for you, so wouldn't it be better to eat nachos rather than skittles?


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## Hillclimb (Dec 19, 2013)

Hmm. In theory yes. Better put some skittles on the nachos just to be on the safe side.


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## x SF med (Dec 19, 2013)

Hillclimb said:


> Hmm. In theory yes. Better put some skittles on the nachos just to be on the safe side.




Keep looking over your shoulder for that desecration of nachos comment....  you could end up :dead: or :die: or with the fishes....


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## AWP (Dec 19, 2013)

Hillclimb said:


> There's a study on vitamin C that I can't find, but pretty much they found that 15 skittles a day was enough vitamin C to fight off scurvy.



1) I will not make a Trayvon Martin joke.
2) If only Sir John Franklin had Skittles...


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## Brill (Dec 29, 2013)

Yeah, "vit-a-mins" (said with a Brit accent) are bad for you.

http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/783

From NIH:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/m/pubmed/22021693/


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## TLDR20 (Dec 29, 2013)

lindy said:


> Yeah, "vit-a-mins" (said with a Brit accent) are bad for you.
> 
> http://www.drhoffman.com/page.cfm/783
> 
> ...



The original post was in reference to multivitamins, not specific vitamin treatments.


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## Chopstick (Dec 29, 2013)

I happened upon this article: http://www.theatlantic.com/health/a...myth-why-we-think-we-need-supplements/277947/

Interesting read.



> On October 10, 2011, researchers from the University of Minnesota found that women who took supplemental multivitamins died at rates higher than those who didn't. Two days later, researchers from the Cleveland Clinic found that men who took vitamin E had an increased risk of prostate cancer. "It's been a tough week for vitamins," said Carrie Gann of ABC News.
> 
> These findings weren't new. Seven previous studies had already shown that vitamins increased the risk of cancer and heart disease and shortened lives. Still, in 2012, more than half of all Americans took some form of vitamin supplements. What few people realize, however, is that their fascination with vitamins can be traced back to one man. A man who was so spectacularly right that he won two Nobel Prizes and so spectacularly wrong that he was arguably the world's greatest quack.





> In 1970, Pauling published _Vitamin C and the Common Cold_, urging the public to take 3,000 milligrams of vitamin C every day (about 50 times the recommended daily allowance). Pauling believed that the common cold would soon be a historical footnote. "It will take decades to eradicate the common cold completely," he wrote, "but it can, I believe, be controlled entirely in the United States and some other countries within a few years. I look forward to witnessing this step toward a better world." Pauling's book became an instant best seller. Paperback versions were printed in 1971 and 1973, and an expanded edition titled _Vitamin C, the Common Cold and the Flu_, published three years later, promised to ward off a predicted swine flu pandemic. Sales of vitamin C doubled, tripled, and quadrupled. Drugstores couldn't keep up with demand. By the mid-1970s, 50 million Americans were following Pauling's advice. Vitamin manufacturers called it "the Linus Pauling effect."


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## comrade-z (Dec 29, 2013)

Found the actual Minnesota study - http://archinte.jamanetwork.com/article.aspx?articleid=1105975

I am curious why these studies don't seem to differentiate between synthetic or natural forms of these vitamins.  From what I can find, it sounds like most vitamins on the market are synthetically produced, and have found a small number of scientific articles pushing the idea that naturally occurring forms of vitamins are better.  Not sure if all vitamins can be extracted and put into a pill in a naturally occurring form, but it seems as if many can be, so my guess is that it is possible to find genuinely natural vitamins.  Seeing this, it would be interesting to see a large study done about the differences between natural vs. synthetic.  I was able to find a few small articles on this difference, but haven't found any real scientific studies so far.  Will look more again later when I have more time.


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## Chopstick (Dec 29, 2013)

If you go to the NIH website and put "natural vs synthetic multivitamin" in the search field you get 17, 700  links. 
http://search.nih.gov/search?utf8=✓...synthetic+multivitamins&commit.x=0&commit.y=0


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## comrade-z (Dec 29, 2013)

NIH was one of the places I looked, however almost all of those listed are about specific vitamins/nutrients - I was wondering about a comparison to the across-the-board type study done by Minnesota.  Not saying your link wasn't helpful - I just need to wade through to find something closer to what I am looking for.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 26, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I take vitamin D , fish oil and glucosamine everyday. Makes me feel good inside.





pardus said:


> Glucosamine, Chondroitin and MSM fixed my fucked up knees. Seriously, changed my life.
> I take fish oil daily and other vitamins etc... when I feel the need i.e. Vit C when I'm sick.
> 
> Be aware though that certain vitamins/minerals taken in excess will build up harmfully in the body. I don't recall exactly (do your own research) but certain vitamins have be linked/proven to cause stones and other bad things if taken in excess. <snip>





Crusader74 said:


> I take B12, magnesium+zinc, flax seed oil  and a spirulina and chlorella supp every morning.  Feel Awesome!





x SF med said:


> B12, niacin, fish oil, D, all on the advice of my doc...



@TLDR20 , @pardus , @x SF med , @Crusader74  - All 4 of you were pro-supplement of some type, nearly 3 years later do you still feel the same way?

I am looking to supplement my diet with fish oil, D, and Flax.  My cholesterol tends to run on the high side so also looking at Niacin vs. something prescription based.  I've read mixed reviews on the Niacin that is created to reduce or eliminate the morning flush that comes with it.


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## AWP (Jul 26, 2016)

FWIW I have dry eyes and my optometrist recommended fish oil. It took a month or so, but it works.


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## RackMaster (Jul 26, 2016)

The only regular suppliment I take year round is Dr but living in the land of ice and snow, it's sometimes hard to get enough sun.  Been thinking of adding a fish oil though.

I tried the glucosamine, chrondroitin and msm years ago but found it didn't do anything.  My doctor noted a study that a small % of the population gets no significant benefits from it.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 26, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @TLDR20 , @pardus , @x SF med , @Crusader74  - All 4 of you were pro-supplement of some type, nearly 3 years later do you still feel the same way?
> 
> I am looking to supplement my diet with fish oil, D, and Flax.  My cholesterol tends to run on the high side so also looking at Niacin vs. something prescription based.  I've read mixed reviews on the Niacin that is created to reduce or eliminate the morning flush that comes with it.



I still take vitamin D. Now that I am in better shape physically, I don't need the fish oil. I just stopped taking Glucosamine


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## Crusader74 (Jul 26, 2016)

Still feel the same, although I haven't taken anything in a few months..


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 26, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @TLDR20 , @pardus , @x SF med , @Crusader74  - All 4 of you were pro-supplement of some type, nearly 3 years later do you still feel the same way?
> 
> I am looking to supplement my diet with fish oil, D, and Flax.  My cholesterol tends to run on the high side so also looking at Niacin vs. something prescription based.  I've read mixed reviews on the Niacin that is created to reduce or eliminate the morning flush that comes with it.



I come down on the side of the street that is anti Vits, unless lab values suggest supplements. If you feel the need, take a Once A Day MVI; with Iron if you are a female. I am not a fan of Statins, and will make diet changes before taking any statins. 

My $.02.


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## DocIllinois (Jul 26, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> *I come down on the side of the street that is anti Vits, unless lab values suggest supplements. If you feel the need, take a Once A Day MVI; with Iron if you are a female.* I am not a fan of Statins, and will make diet changes before taking any statins.
> 
> My $.02.


Strongly agree.

Supplements are not well studied and barely regulated.  Also, what evidence does exist supports only a small number of Vits/ supplements having any theraputic benefit, which is contained mostly to Vit. D administration applying to a _small_ case population.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 26, 2016)

k


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## RackMaster (Jul 26, 2016)

My vitamin D is a prescription due to low levels.  Only reason I still take it.


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## AWP (Jul 26, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> A follow up from above...



This post is driven by curiosity from an A&P class about 20 years ago.

Fat soluble vitamins are A, D, E, and K while the rest are water soluble. The class plus what I've read over the years says that water soluble vitamins don't build up and are passed in the urine. Fat soluble vitamins build up and cause toxicity.

I've just condensed a ton of science into 3 sentences because I are smart.  How true is the above?


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## pardus (Jul 26, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @TLDR20 , @pardus , @x SF med , @Crusader74  - All 4 of you were pro-supplement of some type, nearly 3 years later do you still feel the same way?
> 
> I am looking to supplement my diet with fish oil, D, and Flax.  My cholesterol tends to run on the high side so also looking at Niacin vs. something prescription based.  I've read mixed reviews on the Niacin that is created to reduce or eliminate the morning flush that comes with it.



I've only ever seen results from my Glucosamine, Chondroitin and MSM intake, which as I reported before was neigh miraculous. 
I take even more supplements now, sprirulina is my biggest change.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 27, 2016)

@pardus Just out of curiosity, with Glucosamine, Chondritin, and MSM was there a certain dosage that did the trick? Any particular brands?

@Red Flag 1 Do you think chomping the vitamins apart like pez candy would help with absorption?


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 27, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> This post is driven by curiosity from an A&P class about 20 years ago.
> 
> Fat soluble vitamins are A, D, E, and K while the rest are water soluble. The class plus what I've read over the years says that water soluble vitamins don't build up and are passed in the urine. Fat soluble vitamins build up and cause toxicity.
> 
> I've just condensed a ton of science into 3 sentences because I are smart.  How true is the above?


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 27, 2016)

R.Caerbannog said:


> @pardus Just out of curiosity, with Glucosamine, Chondritin, and MSM was there a certain dosage that did the trick? Any particular brands?
> 
> @Red Flag 1 Do you think chomping the vitamins apart like pez candy would help with absorption?



Breaking up the pills may be of some value. What gets in the way of delivering the supplements to the blood stream is how the vitamin is bound with the carrier agent in the pill/capsule/caplet. Other things that impact delivery of the prime ingredient, is bowel motility. The longer the pill has in the gut, increases the amount that is delivered to the blood stream.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 27, 2016)

Thanks for the insight. @Red Flag 1 Guess I'll be switching over to the brand name Motrin and see if it works out better. I always operated under the assumption that as long as the active ingredients were the same, the product would be the same.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 27, 2016)

R.Caerbannog said:


> Thanks for the insight. @Red Flag 1 Guess I'll be switching over to the brand name Motrin and see if it works out better. I always operated under the assumption that as long as the active ingredients were the same, the product would be the same.


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## DocIllinois (Jul 27, 2016)

pardus said:


> I've only ever seen results from my Glucosamine, Chondroitin and MSM intake, which as I reported before was neigh miraculous.



This brings up another good point regarding supplements: the placebo effect can be strong.

Please don't think I'm hating on your apparent outcomes @pardus , but to use Glucosamine/ Chondriotin as just one example, it has been conclusively found that this supplement doesn't actually do anything.

From one meta analysis, among other similar ones:
_"Compared with placebo, glucosamine, chondroitin, and their combination do not reduce joint pain or have an impact on narrowing of joint space.   Health authorities and health insurers should not cover the costs of these preparations, and new prescriptions to patients who have not received treatment should be discouraged."_
Effects of glucosamine, chondroitin, or placebo in patients with osteoarthritis of hip or knee: network meta-analysis | The BMJ

Many docs in my field shlep Vits/ supplements to the point where its very big business, with accompanying strong (nonsense) claims and "prescriptive guidance."  I am happy when I hear about positive outcomes which are (at this point) likely related to placebo effect, but evidence related to whether the vast majority are genuinely doing what's claimed is extremely poor or not favorable.

So, its very much a 'use and be advised at your own risk' kind of deal with supplements.  The Stick in the Mud will return to his hole at the health sciences library now.


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## Centermass (Jul 27, 2016)

Yall could have had a V8 instead.......

Q: WWWBD??????


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## Gunz (Jul 27, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> A follow up from above.
> 
> Before you begin taking supplemental Vitamin D, you really should find out what your blood levels of Vitamin D are. If you over shoot, and become Vitamin D Toxic, know this: Excess Vitamin D is hard to get rid of. It can lead to excess Blood Calcium levels, and may effect the calcium in your bones, and renal effects; that is just for starters.
> 
> ...




J, try Rid X or a similar product once a month down the toilet. It's basically bacteria in liquid or powder form that consumes solids.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 27, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> J, try Rid X or a similar product once a month down the toilet. It's basically bacteria in liquid or powder form that consumes solids.


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## Devildoc (Jul 27, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> My dad swore by the stuff, as do some of my neighbors. They use Rid X as directed, and have their tanks cleaned every three years. They have never had a problem.
> 
> Being a bit of a Rebel, I decided to take a different tac. We have a stick built home that we moved into at the turn of the century, I just love being able to use that term. I've not used any septic tank products. Even with three grand kids here for over a year, I went until last year to have the tank serviced. Our solid waste was a only few inches in the bottom, and could easily have gone a several more years. Maybe I'm just lucky; I'll keep doin' what I'm doin'.



We have a septic.  I have six homeschooled kids.  I live in septic hell.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 27, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> We have a septic.  I have six homeschooled kids.  I live in septic hell.


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## Devildoc (Jul 27, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Kids can and will flush all manner of things down the toilet. I'm not sure how much Didx will help. Plan on an every qouple of year service. If you find, and expose the top of the tank, it can save up to $75.00 in time and labor.
> 
> Good luck!



Thanks.  We are past the age of flushing inappropriate material; the problem is because we homeschool and have almost everyone home all the time we never give the system, already 37ish years old, time to just chill....it's ALWAYS being used and stressed.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 27, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> Thanks.  We are past the age of flushing inappropriate material; the problem is because we homeschool and have almost everyone home all the time we never give the system, already 37ish years old, time to just chill....it's ALWAYS being used and stressed.


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## Devildoc (Jul 27, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> A couple of things come to mind. How big is the septic tank? The other is what the ground perk test showed? Usually the perk test will dictate the number of bedrooms that the house can handle.
> 
> What gets the tank in trouble is when the amount of solid waste reaches the level of the intake pipe. Once there the system will back up.
> 
> Do you have a garbage disposal in the sink? If you do, that can account for a lot of solid waste.



Dude, you are awesome in asking and I appreciate your interest.  This thing has been the bane of my existence since March.  The house is zoned for a family of 6; we have 8 (6 kids aged 5 1/2-14).  The county has determined that the system is failing but has not failed.  At first the county denied any repair permit because of the crappy soil (actually, an orange clay).  We appealed, the state guy who came out and inspected the soil recommended a pressure-manifold/trench system.  But prior to spending the big bucks, he suggested replacing all the toilet flappers, fixing a leaky shower faucet, moving the discharge for the water softener from out back by the field to out front, and to funnel the gutter downspouts away from the field.  The state guy believes we can, with these and with some water conservation, kick the can of a full-blown repair for a while.  We had a very wet winter and spring which really mad the yard over the field boggy, but now with the typical North Carolina summer, it has dried out quite a bit.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 27, 2016)

0


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## pardus (Jul 28, 2016)

DocIllinois said:


> This brings up another good point regarding supplements: the placebo effect can be strong.
> 
> Please don't think I'm hating on your apparent outcomes @pardus , but to use Glucosamine/ Chondriotin as just one example, it has been conclusively found that this supplement doesn't actually do anything.
> 
> ...



I understand and respect what you are saying. I cannot and will not say it is wrong due to lack of evidence. 
However, I do not believe that a placebo effect will stop knees locking. Which is what happened to me among  other benefits.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Jul 28, 2016)

My dad had a rare blood disorder:
Low blood numbers, the real important ones, ie red and white blood cells and platelets.

We kept him full of fried food and Vitamins (C, Multi's and Iron) and that stubborn sob outlived everyone's expectations by YEARS!!!
He had a stroke because they were ignoring the Platelet counts and attacking the red blood cells with a 5 liter red snackypoo every 3 weeks.

After the stroke he started getting both his 3 week drip and a hit of platelets every 5 days, good news for me I got out of school for this and I hung out with hot FEMALE nurses (I threw that in there just in case).

Ultimately what did him in was the frequency at which we went to the hospital.  The more visits the more chances to pick up something your Immune can't judo chop in the throat.  There was some bad plague going around the Reservation and he got it in the hospital and died in a few days.

I say all this to say studies are just that.  We are all different.  I saw how he felt and what he could do when he was taking vitamins and what happened when he didn't.  (I don't blame him, the iron smelt and tasted like a horses ass).  You can't convince me that vitamins are bad with 10000 studies of people's penis's falling off!

So, I will eat a Multi vitamin with a huge glass of milk and pie, brownies, cake or doughnuts for breakfast until I die or my penis falls off....


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## chocolateboy (Aug 25, 2016)

It all depends on the bio-availability of the vitamin itself. Most of the time your body cannot process most multivitamins efficiently, as they are highly processed and therefore lock away the very nutrients they're trying to give you. 

Either way though, as no one should be trying to fix shitty nutrition with supplementation unless it is impossible to get otherwise, such as being in the field and living of MRE's. Actually that reminds me, why don't they pack MRE's with fish oil, magnesium, zinc etc.


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## R.Caerbannog (Aug 25, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Let me know how that works out for you.


To follow up, when using Ibuprofen I either buy Aleve at the school 4 x 200 mg), or use the Equate brand (4 x 200 mg) from Wal-Mart. The effect is pretty much the same for me. The only difference, is that Aleve pills are coated in a sweet outer shell that makes them easier to swallow.

On the other hand, the coating on the Equate Ibuporfen makes them occasionally adhere to the back of ones throat. I usually chase the Eqaute Ibuprofen down with a bag of Mott's fruit snacks. The Aleve brand seems to be easier in my stomach though.


Devildoc said:


> Dude, you are awesome in asking and I appreciate your interest.  This thing has been the bane of my existence since March.  The house is zoned for a family of 6; we have 8 (6 kids aged 5 1/2-14).  The county has determined that the system is failing but has not failed.  At first the county denied any repair permit because of the crappy soil (actually, an orange clay).  We appealed, the state guy who came out and inspected the soil recommended a pressure-manifold/trench system.  But prior to spending the big bucks, he suggested replacing all the toilet flappers, fixing a leaky shower faucet, moving the discharge for the water softener from out back by the field to out front, and to funnel the gutter downspouts away from the field.  The state guy believes we can, with these and with some water conservation, kick the can of a full-blown repair for a while.  We had a very wet winter and spring which really mad the yard over the field boggy, but now with the typical North Carolina summer, it has dried out quite a bit.


When I was in Colorado, I had a counselor who mentioned that his neighbor had peach trees growing on or near his leech field. He would then talk about how good the peaches were (him and his family were big fans), while acknowledging their dubious origins. Maybe some fruit bearing or nutrient/water hungry trees with shallow roots, could help mitigate the stress put on your septic system.


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## amlove21 (Aug 27, 2016)

chocolateboy said:


> It all depends on the bio-availability of the vitamin itself. Most of the time your body cannot process most multivitamins efficiently, as they are highly processed and therefore lock away the very nutrients they're trying to give you.
> 
> Either way though, as no one should be trying to fix shitty nutrition with supplementation unless it is impossible to get otherwise, such as being in the field and living of MRE's. Actually that reminds me, why don't they pack MRE's with fish oil, magnesium, zinc etc.



:-/

Bioavailability comment aside; why _would_ they pack MRE's with fish oil, magnesium, zinc? Are you assuming that all military members are deficient in those micronutrients? Or that the MRE themselves are deficient? What benefit would that provide, if any? 

Most importantly, where are you getting your information? Are you in school for anatomy, physiology, nutrition, etc?


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## Red Flag 1 (Aug 27, 2016)

R.Caerbannog said:


> To follow up, when using Ibuprofen I either buy Aleve at the school 4 x 200 mg), or use the Equate brand (4 x 200 mg) from Wal-Mart. The effect is pretty much the same for me. The only difference, is that Aleve pills are coated in a sweet outer shell that makes them easier to swallow.


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## DocIllinois (Aug 27, 2016)

chocolateboy said:


> It all depends on the bio-availability of the vitamin itself. Most of the time your body cannot process most multivitamins efficiently, as they are highly processed and therefore lock away the very nutrients they're trying to give you.
> 
> Either way though, as no one should be trying to fix shitty nutrition with supplementation unless it is impossible to get otherwise, such as being in the field and living of MRE's. Actually that reminds me, why don't they pack MRE's with fish oil, magnesium, zinc etc.



Oh, my dear Dr. Pauling.  Such is the legacy you have created.


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## chocolateboy (Aug 27, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> :-/
> 
> Bioavailability comment aside; why _would_ they pack MRE's with fish oil, magnesium, zinc? Are you assuming that all military members are deficient in those micronutrients? Or that the MRE themselves are deficient? What benefit would that provide, if any?
> 
> Most importantly, where are you getting your information? Are you in school for anatomy, physiology, nutrition, etc?


Fish oil for joint lubrication, magnesium for energy production/sleep as well as zinc for joints again. No I'm not assuming that all military members are deficient in those micronutrients. I can't speak for all MRE's, I'm not an MREist, but for the ones that I have had (Australian) I'd say they could do with some of the things listed, maybe some digestive enzymes as well. Benefits were listed above.

From my buddy Rob down the street, who's cousin is a bodybuilder who told him, that his uncle said this is legit. 

But in all seriousness, one of the guys I work with is an ISSN sports nutritionist (yes, that is not accredited), and he constantly relays information he reads from ISSN studies and the like, and backs them up when questioned.



DocIllinois said:


> Oh, my dear Dr. Pauling.  Such is the legacy you have created.


By the sounds of amlove21's response and yours, I feel as if I have stepped on a mine that's about to blow up in my face.


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## AWP (Aug 27, 2016)

chocolateboy said:


> But in all seriousness, one of the guys I work with is an ISSN sports nutritionist (yes, that is not accredited), and he constantly relays information he reads from ISSN studies and the like, and backs them up when questioned.
> 
> By the sounds of amlove21's response and yours, I feel as if I have stepped on a mine that's about to blow up in my face.



We used to have a member here with credentials similar to your friend. He was soundly proven to be a clown. Second hand info from an unaccredited individual who reads a lot doesn't carry much weight. Your buddy may be a genius and 100% on point with his info, but our track record with his type isn't encouraging.

You can be as cheeky as you want, but you're coming across as a know-it-all which is doubly funny since we have actual doctors and physiologists posting in this thread. Your signal-to-noise ratio is rather high so you may want to dial back your posts and play more of a passive role. You have zero military experience, but presume to interact with us on a peer level where military experience is concerned?


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## amlove21 (Aug 27, 2016)

chocolateboy said:


> Fish oil for joint lubrication, magnesium for energy production/sleep as well as zinc for joints again. No I'm not assuming that all military members are deficient in those micronutrients. I can't speak for all MRE's, I'm not an MREist, but for the ones that I have had (Australian) I'd say they could do with some of the things listed, maybe some digestive enzymes as well. Benefits were listed above.


I think you misunderstood me. I know what the supplements are for, I was asking what benefits you think the rank and file military member would see from including them in MRE's, and if you had any information to support what seems to be you saying MRE's aren't ok by themselves and need supplementation.

Omega 3-6-9's are important for a bunch of different reasons. They also prolong the clotting cascade and when taken in high volumes can make ordinary bleeders really hard to stop. Magnesium is soooooo hot right now for sleep- and it's not been tested or proven to help more than melatonin or anything else (anecdotal evidence aside).

I will say this flatly; a good number of the people engaging on this thread are trying to be cordial, but "my mate told me so" isn't a great way to get your info. I know you heard it on another thread but it bears repeating- maybe read a little more and post a little less. No drama- but you're not in the military, you don't have specialized information sources or expertise on this specific topic.

ETA- Free beat me to it. Press on everyone.


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## chocolateboy (Aug 27, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> We used to have a member here with credentials similar to your friend. He was soundly proven to be a clown. Second hand info from an unaccredited individual who reads a lot doesn't carry much weight. Your buddy may be a genius and 100% on point with his info, but our track record with his type isn't encouraging.
> 
> You can be as cheeky as you want, but you're coming across as a know-it-all which is doubly funny since we have actual doctors and physiologists posting in this thread. Your signal-to-noise ratio is rather high so you may want to dial back your posts and play more of a passive role. You have zero military experience, but presume to interact with us on a peer level where military experience is concerned?





amlove21 said:


> I think you misunderstood me. I know what the supplements are for, I was asking what benefits you think the rank and file military member would see from including them in MRE's, and if you had any information to support what seems to be you saying MRE's aren't ok by themselves and need supplementation.
> 
> Omega 3-6-9's are important for a bunch of different reasons. They also prolong the clotting cascade and when taken in high volumes can make ordinary bleeders really hard to stop. Magnesium is soooooo hot right now for sleep- and it's not been tested or proven to help more than melatonin or anything else (anecdotal evidence aside).
> 
> ...


Ah, I'm sorry I came across as a know it all, I'm yet to get used to interacting on forums, let alone a military one. So I will certainly dial back my posts. But I will leave an article that contains a number of references to the benefits of fish oil, just for conversation sake. 

fish oil | The ISSN Scoop

Also once again sorry for my ignorance.


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## policemedic (Aug 28, 2016)

I don't know what that was, but it wasn't science.


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## R.Caerbannog (Aug 28, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Thanks for the follow up. There is a difference between Motrin and Aleve. Aleve is Naprosyn. There is an Ibuprofen marketed under the trade name "Advil", and perhaps that is what you meant.


@Red Flag 1 Yep, it was Advil. Thanks for catching that.


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## RackMaster (Aug 28, 2016)

I never thought of using fish oil as a lube...  but to each their own.  :-"


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 19, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> We have a septic.  I have six homeschooled kids.  I live in septic hell.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 20, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> We used to have a member here with credentials similar to your friend.



but... but... that other member went to Harvard!*




*Harvard Extension School.  Totally not even close to the same thing.


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## Devildoc (Sep 20, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I got an EPA notice on septic tank systems, and I thought I'd pass it along to you:Gmail.
> 
> ETA: Septic Smart Week. I wonder if we ever have a week that is not dedicated to some one, or something??



Thanks.  Still dealing with the issue, but fortunately barely a simmer.  Hopefully get through the winter before committing to a repair.


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## x SF med (Sep 21, 2016)

chocolateboy said:


> Ah, I'm sorry I came across as a know it all, I'm yet to get used to interacting on forums, let alone a military one. So I will certainly dial back my posts. But I will leave an article that contains a number of references to the benefits of fish oil, just for conversation sake.
> 
> fish oil | The ISSN Scoop
> 
> Also once again sorry for my ignorance.



You do realize that the ISSN is supported solely by the supplement industry, right?   It is the voice of GNC ...


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## chocolateboy (Sep 26, 2016)

x SF med said:


> You do realize that the ISSN is supported solely by the supplement industry, right?   It is the voice of GNC ...


Now I do... :-":-":-":wall::wall::wall:


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