# Antibiotics vs Immune system



## Olive Drab (Jul 22, 2009)

What the consensus on getting antibiotics vs letting the immune system fight a chest cold?  Im getting mixed opinions here.


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## QC (Jul 22, 2009)

As opposed to an occult virus like Swine Flu, normal influenza, if treated, will last about seven days, if not treated will last about week.  
I treat with Echinacea and apparently the liquid variety is better than tabs. I take Zinc as well. But rum or scotch work well too. ;)


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## fortygeek (Jul 22, 2009)

Ex-nurse.  I saw a LOT of unneeded antibiotics proscribed in my day, so I'm in the 'we abuse antibiotics' crowd.  I try to hack it out on my own.  If I'm still hacking and coughing after 10 days, then I'll see the doc.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 22, 2009)

Do you have a fever? Are you coughing anything up? If so, what does it look like? How long has it lasted. 

If you have a fever and are coughing alot of green stuff up, have some post nasal drip and a sore throat you may have an Upper Respiratory Infection. If so, I would say you need some antibiotics. If you are just coughing alot of stuff up you may still need antibiotics

On the flip side if you are somewhere you get 8 hours of sleep, do not put too much stress on yourself and can fight an infection. If you cannot do all those things I would get yourself checked and get some drugs


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## HoosierAnnie (Jul 22, 2009)

Colds, and any other disease caused by a virus will NOT be effected by an antib iotic (which only work on microbes)  They would only become becessary if the patient deveolped a secondary microbial infection on top of the viral illness.  I'm a BIg proponent of letting the fever run its course (unless of course it gets to an unsafe level)  It is your body's natural defense against the "invader"  Let the lil bugger FRY!!!!  I usually put myself to bed with a steamy mug o honey sweetened tea laced with a "wee drop o the Irish"


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## x SF med (Jul 22, 2009)

You need to get it cultured to know if you need an antibiotic - I'm with the Geek and Annie here - know what you're dealing with prior to throing ABX at it...   Lots of civvy docs are now hitting everything with a cocktail of Tamiflu and Cephalosporins...  'just to be safe' - idiots.

Sleep, fluids, and if you can find somebody that knows how to perform Frappage - you will be ok.


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## AWP (Jul 22, 2009)

For ME, I can't speak to you OD, but I've never had a cold move to my lungs that didn't require antibiotics to clear it up. I have chronic sinusitis and once it migrates to my lungs it is only a matter of time before I have to take antibiotics to clear it up. I know others that aren't in that boat, they can recover without them, but once I start coughing up any liquid for longer than a day or two I know I need something to help me out.

That's my position, like I said I know others that don't need them. My track record says otherwise.


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## x SF med (Jul 22, 2009)

Freefalling said:


> For ME, I can't speak to you OD, but I've never had a cold move to my lungs that didn't require antibiotics to clear it up. I have chronic sinusitis and once it migrates to my lungs it is only a matter of time before I have to take antibiotics to clear it up. I know others that aren't in that boat, they can recover without them, but once I start coughing up any liquid for longer than a day or two I know I need something to help me out.
> 
> That's my position, like I said I know others that don't need them. My track record says otherwise.


 
Do you take your entire course of ABX as prescribed?  huh? Do ya?


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## AWP (Jul 22, 2009)

x SF med said:


> Do you take your entire course of ABX as prescribed?  huh? Do ya?



I do. I'm already at risk for becoming resistant to antibiotics, no point in helping the process along.


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## 0699 (Jul 23, 2009)

x SF med said:


> Do you take your entire course of ABX as prescribed?  huh? Do ya?



Personally, I only take my meds till I feel better, then I save the rest till the next time I feel sick so I don't have to pay for another doctor visit.


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## 8'Duece (Jul 23, 2009)

0699 said:


> Personally, I only take my meds till I feel better, then I save the rest till the next time I feel sick so I don't have to pay for another doctor visit.



Bad move Bro'  Take all anti's as prescribed.  If you use them later the micro bial builds up an immunity from the previous medication.  This is what any doctor will tell you regarding the use of anti's that are not somewhat specific to the virus bug at hand. I've tried like many others and it's never worked for me. My mother alway's had a bottle of Tetrocycline and insisted that I take it, but It nothing for me. 

I'm a believer in "frying" the bug by letting the fever break it's self and plenty of liquids and chicken noodle soup. Although If I had any higher a fever I would have sought out medical attention immediatley.  

The last time I developed a fever it was 103 degrees at one point.  I simply sweated it out, shivered a bit and it finally  broke and I did not need to see my doc. 

That's just my experience with the last bug I had back in April of this year. 

:2c:
Other


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## 0699 (Jul 23, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> Bad move Bro'  Take all anti's as prescribed.  If you use them later the micro bial builds up an immunity from the previous medication.  This is what any doctor will tell you regarding the use of anti's that are not somewhat specific to the virus bug at hand. I've tried like many others and it's never worked for me. My mother alway's had a bottle of Tetrocycline and insisted that I take it, but It nothing for me.
> 
> I'm a believer in "frying" the bug by letting the fever break it's self and plenty of liquids and chicken noodle soup. Although If I had any higher a fever I would have sought out medical attention immediatley.
> 
> ...



Wilco sir.

BTW, I was just smarting off to the Troll; hence the smilie.


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## 8'Duece (Jul 23, 2009)

0699 said:


> Wilco sir.
> 
> BTW, I was just smarting off to the Troll; hence the smilie.



Oh, well then continue on Marine !!! :cool:


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## Olive Drab (Jul 27, 2009)

Sucked it up and its finally gone after a little over a week.  
Last time I tried that though, I had the chest infection for almost a month.  I think for now on, Ill give it a half a week and go from there.


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## x SF med (Jul 27, 2009)

0699 said:


> Personally, I only take my meds till I feel better, then I save the rest till the next time I feel sick so I don't have to pay for another doctor visit.


 
When you die from an ABX resistant bug, I get your guns ...  right?:doh:

(there's a smiley for you, smartass)


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## 0699 (Jul 27, 2009)

x SF med said:


> When you die from an ABX resistant bug, I get your guns ...  right?:doh:
> 
> (there's a smiley for you, smartass)



Only the ones that aren't buried; you'd need a treasure map to find them all...


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## HeloMedic1171 (Jul 31, 2009)

OD - the Doc I worked with for the 5 months prior to being moved to where I am now, that's what he recommended.  let your body fight for itself for 4-7 days, if no change, come back and we'll get more in depth.  SIW.


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## Ajax (Jul 31, 2009)

GENERALLY-  you do not take antibiotics for a cold or other viral infection.  That isn't to say you won't be Rx'd antibiotics while you have a virus.  The AB's are for secondary infections that your body may contract while your immune system is depressed.

For example, if you contract what my very PC Paramedic proctor referred to as "The Booty Flu", and your cat scratches you, and that wound becomes infected, you will be placed on antibiotics.  Those antibiotics aren't going to do shit for your Hi-Five, but they'll fight the Staph bacteria that your kitty left in your skin, that you USED to be able to fight off yourself....just like you used to be able to fight off your boyfriend.


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## Ajax (Jul 31, 2009)

0699 said:


> Personally, I only take my meds till I feel better, then I save the rest till the next time I feel sick so I don't have to pay for another doctor visit.



  :eek:Ugggghhhhh.....I'm going to beat you with my stethoscope while someone tells you in a very German voice why this is bad.  The combination of kinesthetic and auditory learning should have a long lasting effect.


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## G-Man222 (Aug 3, 2009)

Since this thread is about Immune System vs Antibiotics

When you're in the field, do you ever administer antibiotics to your own men? Or do you have their immune systems fight it out?

I understand how overtime in austere conditions, or conditions of high physical intensity with minimal sleep, the human bodies immune system can take a crap on you. 

But for something like a "Cold" or "Flu" (I know Cold is a virus, can't be treated via antibiotic, but you get the point) would you just administer the person an antibiotic (if you had them on hand), or would you have the person fight it out? Or would that be case by case per your discretion? 

Are enough antibiotics typically administered in amounts/within time line needed to create antibacterial resistance to troops in the field? or are they rarely administered?


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## Ajax (Aug 3, 2009)

G-Man222 said:


> Since this thread is about Immune System vs Antibiotics
> 
> When you're in the field, do you ever administer antibiotics to your own men?


  Yes



G-Man222 said:


> Or do you have their immune systems fight it out?


 Yes.  There are very few absoutes in medicine and even fewer in field medicine.  DRT (Dead Right There) is about the only exception.



G-Man222 said:


> I understand how overtime in austere conditions, or conditions of high physical intensity with minimal sleep, the human bodies immune system can take a crap on you.


  That's why I highly encourage the use of multivitamins while operational.  Doesn't really matter if it's flinstone's chewables or centrum silver.



G-Man222 said:


> But for something like a "Cold" or "Flu" (I know Cold is a virus, can't be treated via antibiotic, but you get the point) would you just administer the person an antibiotic (if you had them on hand), or would you have the person fight it out? Or would that be case by case per your discretion?



No.  Antibiotics don't work on viruses.  Only antivirals work on viruses.  Think of it this way, if your computer had a virus, would you give it a wipe down and blow all the dust out or would you run anti-virus software?  

I would only give AB's if I thought the pt was at risk of a secondary infection or already had a secondary infection. 



G-Man222 said:


> re enough antibiotics typically administered in amounts/within time line needed to create antibacterial resistance to troops in the field? or are they rarely administered?



Unfortunately, they're over administered, particularly Cipro and Zithromyacin, which are great drugs, at least for now.  Part of the blame falls on undereducated medics.  Part is irresponsible patients, particularly those that freak out if anything from a foreign countrie passes their lips and down enough Cipro to cure a fire team of gonorrhea.  Part is from medics/PA's having no back bone when their patients insist on receiving antibiotics.  

The most common ailment in the field is the shits.  The most common drug given is a combination of loperamide (Immodium) and Cipro.  

My treatment plan is this:  If you're on an operation, take the loperamide and make sure you have enough to cover the length of the operation with you.  2 tabs (4mg) initially, 1 tab (2mg) every few hours after, as needed.  Don't exceed 16mg/daily.  Drink lots of water.  Pepto tablets sometimes help as well, particularly if you've got stomach pain to go with your shits, or if you've been ignoring the whole GO1A rule.

Once you're off the operation, discontinue the loperamide.  Diarrhea is your body trying to get rid of something bad inside of it.  Let it do it's work.  Loperamide is just putting a cork in your butt and keeping whatever is making you sick inside you.  Pay attention to COCA- Color, Odor, Consistency, and Amount.  Of course shit stinks, but especially stinky shit, combined with consistency can be indicative of things like Giardia.  Giardia is treated with a whole different set of drugs (Flagyl).  Keep your self hydrated.  Down about twice the amount of fluids you normally would.  Diluted Gatorade is my personal fav.  ORS packets work as well, but why would you do that to yourself?  Finally, if the shits don't go away after 36 hours or so, I start an antibiotic regimen.  Once you're on the antibiotics, you stay on the antibiotics for the full regimen, even if it turns out you didn't need them after all.

I'll into more detail about the COCA at request.


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## 0699 (Aug 3, 2009)

Ajax said:


> :eek:Ugggghhhhh.....I'm going to beat you with my stethoscope while someone tells you in a very German voice why this is bad.  The combination of kinesthetic and auditory learning should have a long lasting effect.



Problem is I'm a Marine AND I'm hard of hearing.  I enjoy being beaten and I wouldn't hear the German anyway...


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## HeloMedic1171 (Aug 3, 2009)

Ajax said:


> My treatment plan is this:



I almost responded to the question, but decided not to because I know HSLD guys have different SOPs than I do... But I do know that your treatment plan is essentially spot on the same as what we do, with one exception....

due to operational.... errr... "differences" between my unit and yours, you can skip the first portion involving loperamide.  when i say you can, i mean it's not gonna be a problem for Joe to hit the latrine every hour or two until it passes.  however - if that WILL pose a problem, we do start Joe on the little brown capsules, same dosage as you described.

as for ABX....  same here - except I don't have Cipro.  I have Levo, and while I'm reluctant to give it out, I will.  I've only had 2 cases where I gave ABX.  sure, Joe will bitch and moan and say "I need some pills, Doc!!"  but truth is, he doesn't always...... he needs to apply the FISHDO doctrine and cowboy up, OPTEMPO willing.  I have seen one case where (after discussing findings with the MD) I (we) chose Metro over Levo.  just like you said - COCA.  Otherwise.....  suck it up.  the shits is more or less a fact of life at one point or another in a foreign (3rd world!!!!) country.


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## Headshot (Aug 6, 2009)

Haven't read all the previous responses, but in regards to antibiotics, I think they are used way too much as the go to when people don't feel like doing a proper diagnosis and just monitoring the situation and letting things pass.  IMO unless your life is at stake I don't think they should be used as often as they are.  

If you are however giving lots of them then I would also suggest having your men do a candida yeast cleanse at the first opportunity.  Candida build up is a side effect of antibiotics that often gets overlooked and can have lasting bad side effects of its own especially in females. :2c:


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## 7point62 (Aug 7, 2009)

Self-thoracentesis with a Kabar and a liter of Captain Morgan has always worked for me.


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## HoosierAnnie (Aug 7, 2009)

The two posts above by Ajax and Headshot talkng about Flagyl admin (Ajax) and HS's suggestion about candida cleanse are the main reason I usually suggest to folks on oral antibiotics to include active culture yogurt in their diet.  Antibios will get the baddie bacteria, but will also do collateral damage on the good guys living in your gut.  Yogurt will help recolonize your gut with good guys.


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## G-Man222 (Nov 28, 2009)

big issue, (and I do convene with pharmacy technician students as well) about anti-biotics, is as previously mentioned, a patients immune system can become totally dependant on recieving anti-biotics.

Like in Job Corps, they'd rather give chicken broth than nyquil, etc.

Especially with the newer anti-biotics coming out, even pharmacists can't figure out which category of medication to put them under. (medications are orgenized by category, hence how one can take 3 or more different pain meds, and still not even come close to OD, some info for those who don't already know that) and some of the newer ones, although more potent, have even been shown to take out white blood cells, as well as the bacteria you're trying to kill.


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## surgicalcric (Nov 28, 2009)

G-Man222 said:


> ...Especially with the newer anti-biotics coming out, even pharmacists can't figure out which category of medication to put them under. (medications are orgenized by category, hence how one can take 3 or more different pain meds, and still not even come close to OD, some info for those who don't already know that) and some of the newer ones, although more potent, have even been shown to take out white blood cells, as well as the bacteria you're trying to kill.




You need to go back to reading and not posting about medical topics.  This is getting a bit ridiculous, to say the least.....


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## G-Man222 (Nov 28, 2009)

surgicalcric said:


> You need to go back to reading and not posting about medical topics.  This is getting a bit ridiculous, to say the least.....


 
What I said is actually true, medications are put into different types of medication categories. Like Morphine, Tylenol, and Asprin, you can be allergic to morphine, and Asprin, but Tylenol is good to go. 

And even dosage speaking, you can take all three (each normal doses) at the same time. Don't quite know how your Liver and Kidneys will like it, but you can. And doctors do prescribe that. 

Or if it's in regard to the chicken stock, it doesn't really contain any anti-biotic, but on Job Corps, if they can avoid giving out actual medications, they will. 

(We even have a cough drop joke on center) if that's what you were going on.

And concerning some anti-biotics taking out white blood cells as well, there are several medications that do that, can't remember the names off the top of my head. 

And it's not uncommon for a medication designed to target one type of infection will also target another type of cell. Nonoxynal-9 is a good example of such a type of medication. (although ti targets sperm cells instead of white blood cells)

And concerning newer medications, some of the newer ones (learned this from a couple Pharm-Techs) have characteristics of two or more medication categories. which is why some pharmacists (those who decide on behalf of pharmacology what to put them under) don't know which category to put them into.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 28, 2009)

Gman, do you have any professional medical training? EMT-P, LVN, RN, or are you a PA? Are you a Pharmacist or a pharmacist assistant? Have you completed any formal training in any of the above?

If you are not or have not, maybe you should think about cutting your fucking fingers off and learning to read what the people who have post…


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## surgicalcric (Nov 28, 2009)

G-Man222 said:


> ...



G-man:

I understand that you are all excited about learning all there is to learn about medicine, however you need to temper that a bit.  

This is not the place for you to espouse your knowledge -especially pharmacological- yet.

And PM inbound.....


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## G-Man222 (Nov 28, 2009)

surgicalcric said:


> G-man:
> 
> I understand that you are all excited about learning all there is to learn about medicine, however you need to temper that a bit.
> 
> ...


 
Ok..


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## amlove21 (Nov 30, 2009)

surgicalcric said:


> G-man:
> 
> I understand that you are all excited about learning all there is to learn about medicine, however you need to temper that a bit.
> 
> ...


 

x2. You're off, G-Man. You wanna talk about some of this stuff, PM me. I'll play the role of "nicer dude hoping to point you in the right direction" on this one.


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## AWP (Nov 30, 2009)

G-Man222 said:


> big issue, (and I do convene with pharmacy technician students as well) about anti-biotics,



A pharmacy tech STUDENT? Well, hold the phone here, folks! A pharmacy tech student? You talk to someone who will someday run a register at Target and suddenly you return to put the paddles to this thread?

How many times do the experienced members of this board have to tell you to stop posting about topics outside of your realm before you get the hint or are unable to log in?

I'm going to go take a shit next to a pilot so I can return to wax poetic about thermodynamics.

<3's!


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