# Sailor sits during "Colors" & Intel Specialist loses her clearance over Anthem protests (page 4)



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 10, 2016)

While the NFL may look the other way on this, I have to believe (need to believe?) that this Sailor's command would not be quite as understanding?

There is a longer version on Facebook, but you get the idea.


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## Red Flag 1 (Sep 10, 2016)

Maybe she can share the selfie while she is being "talked to" about this. That's the selfie I want to see.


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## CDG (Sep 10, 2016)

With a fist thrown up too boot.  Classy girl.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 10, 2016)

Dishonorable Discharge.


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## amlove21 (Sep 10, 2016)

CDG said:


> With a fist thrown up too boot.  Classy girl.


Well, just remember as evidenced by the West Point pic- that doesn't mean black power, it's not divisional, it's just a sign of solidarity.


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## amlove21 (Sep 10, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> Dishonorable Discharge.


Meh.

She's a dumb, young enlisted chick that needs mentorship and a harsh explanation of the difference between civilian and military expression when it comes to political movements. That's really about it. 

I know we all get super sensitive about this, but dealing with the amount of military members in her demo I have at this point- she's being ignorant and impulsive. I can fix that.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 10, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> Meh.
> 
> She's a dumb, young enlisted chick that needs mentorship and a harsh explanation of the difference between civilian and military expression when it comes to political movements. That's really about it.
> 
> I know we all get super sensitive about this, but dealing with the amount of military members in her demo I have at this point- she's being ignorant and impulsive. I can fix that.



I must disagree. The lack of leadership and discipline I see via social media leads me to believe otherwise. The number of incidents I have seen via social media by active duty members further leads me to believe that the punishments, or lack thereof, are not harsh enough.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 10, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> I must disagree. The lack of leadership and discipline I see via social media leads me to believe otherwise. The number of incidents I have seen via social media by active duty members further leads me to believe that the punishments, or lack thereof, are not harsh enough.



You see via social media? What does that even mean?


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## BloodStripe (Sep 10, 2016)

45/45 and a reduction in rank.  While she is on restriction she can perform colors every day.


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 10, 2016)

Yeah, I'm with @Marine0311 on this one.  The Military is not the civilian world where a simple "Don't do that again, and here's why" is suffice.  At a minimum she should get NJP'd.  She took a freeking video of herself, admitting that she knew she could get into trouble, and did it anyway, because she did not fear the consequences.  I don't know that I'd go so far as a discharge, but if a Marine can get NJP'd and lose his Good Conduct Medal for getting caught drinking in the barracks, in his room, quietly...her dumbass can lose hers for overtly flaunting the rules and quoting TuPoc while she does it.


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 10, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> You see via social media? What does that even mean?



Take a gander at Facebook or YouTube and do a few keyword searches.  It is disgusting what young service people post today.  The one that sticks out most fresh to me was the Marines who had the opportunity to visit Iwo Jima, and made a rap video about it.  I heard from a guy who knows a guy, that these gentlemen may still be doing pushups as we speak.

It created quite a shitstorm and the command actually put out a statement.

Surprisingly the Video is no longer on Facebook (which is good) but here is a screenshot:


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## TLDR20 (Sep 10, 2016)

In our more than 1 million strong military people can find A few instances of shitty behavior and extrapolate that into problems with discipline? Ok.


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## Muppet (Sep 10, 2016)

You know what. No comment. I will get bombarded by a few for my comments.

M.


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## Raptor (Sep 10, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Take a gander at Facebook or YouTube and do a few keyword searches.  It is disgusting what young service people post today.  The one that sticks out most fresh to me was the Marines who had the opportunity to visit Iwo Jima, and made a rap video about it.  I heard from a guy who knows a guy, that these gentlemen may still be doing pushups as we speak.
> 
> It created quite a shitstorm and the command actually put out a statement.
> 
> ...


This also serves as a reminder of the "Don't take a video" rule.


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## Gunz (Sep 10, 2016)

She may get a mild verbal reprimand. Given the sensitive racial atmosphere that's been hysterically exploited by BLM, I don't think anybody in the military who values his/her position would dare go any further than that.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 10, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Yeah, I'm with @Marine0311 on this one.  The Military is not the civilian world where a simple "Don't do that again, and here's why" is suffice.  At a minimum she should get NJP'd.  She took a freeking video of herself, admitting that she knew she could get into trouble, and did it anyway, because she did not fear the consequences.  I don't know that I'd go so far as a discharge, but if a Marine can get NJP'd and lose his Good Conduct Medal for getting caught drinking in the barracks, in his room, quietly...her dumbass can lose hers for overtly flaunting the rules and quoting TuPoc while she does it.



I agree however I still believe she should be kicked out. Lesson learned and will send a message to others.



TLDR20 said:


> In our more than 1 million strong military people can find a few instances of shitty behavior and extrapolate that into problems with discipline? Ok.



Yes they can. Civilians can and do paint the military with broad strokes. They see dumb shit like this and think "WTF". My civilian friends asked me about this incident this morning and the questions were along the lines of "Why did she do that?" "Will she get into trouble?" "isn't she supposed to stand?"






TLDR20 said:


> You see via social media? What does that even mean?



It means what I read or watch on social media. If I see something on Facebook for example. I think you know what I mean. Perhaps I should have said "on" social media.


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## amlove21 (Sep 10, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> I must disagree. The lack of leadership and discipline I see via social media leads me to believe otherwise. The number of incidents I have seen via social media by active duty members further leads me to believe that the punishments, or lack thereof, are not harsh enough.


So, your problem is with the lack of accountability and leadership, which is fine. 

But this singular act itself (not lumping it in with "everyone is doing this crap the problem is the whole system") isn't worth a dishonorable discharge, yeah?

This video makes the subject look like an asshole, not punishable via NJP and discharged.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 10, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> So, your problem is with the lack of accountability and leadership, which is fine.
> 
> But this singular act itself (not lumping it in with "everyone is doing this crap the problem is the whole system") isn't worth a dishonorable discharge, yeah?
> 
> This video makes the subject look like an asshole, not punishable via NJP and discharged.



Yes partly. Leadership has not, in my opinion, dropped the hammer hard enough on stupid shit like this. I don't understand taping yourself doing something that could get you in trouble and putting it out there on social media (YouTube). I just don't get it.

No I disagree. The act is worth it because....I admit I am not sure how further to get my point across . You are on active duty, you represent the U.S, the U.S military and all that is right and good with the U.S, people see what you do, people expect those in the military to act a certain way, I don't see how you have a "right" to sit down. I do remember being required to stand so going further with that you are "required" to stand you do not have a choice. Either do it or face the consequences of your actions and I stand by what I say; Dishonorable Discharge and that will hopefully have a ripple effect sending the message from leadership with "If you do this then you will get booted out".


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## amlove21 (Sep 10, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> No I disagree. The act is worth it because....I admit I am not sure how further to get my point across . You are on active duty, you represent the U.S, the U.S military and all that is right and good with the U.S, people see what you do, people expect those in the military to act a certain way, I don't see how you have a "right" to sit down. I do remember being required to stand so going further with that you are "required" to stand you do not have a choice. Either do it or face the consequences of your actions and I stand by what I say; Dishonorable Discharge and that will hopefully have a ripple effect sending the message from leadership with "If you do this then you will get booted out".


I mean, ok. 

When it comes down to it, there are plenty of people serving because it's a job and it's very secure. Sure, I would like everyone to bleed American, display unwavering patriotism at all times, value the same things I value, etc. But it's just not the case. Some people think Reveille/Colors are just stupid interruptions on base in the morning. 

There is no "uncrossable line" as far as perceived disrespect displayed towards our nation's songs or patriotic rituals- sure, we all agree you should respect them and feel some time of way when someone doesn't. I just think criminalizing it the way you describe is just not logical in theory or practice, and this issue is bigger than it needs to be 'cause this young sailor rustled your jimmies a bit.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 10, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> I mean, ok.
> 
> When it comes down to it, there are plenty of people serving because it's a job and it's very secure. Sure, I would like everyone to bleed American, display unwavering patriotism at all times, value the same things I value, etc. But it's just not the case. Some people think Reveille/Colors are just stupid interruptions on base in the morning.
> 
> There is no "uncrossable line" as far as perceived disrespect displayed towards our nation's songs or patriotic rituals- sure, we all agree you should respect them and feel some time of way when someone doesn't. I just think criminalizing it the way you describe is just not logical in theory or practice, and this issue is bigger than it needs to be 'cause this young sailor rustled your jimmies a bit.





I agree with all your points. I can recall some Marines I served with ducking in a building to avoid Reveille/Colors because they thought standing there for 15 seconds was "stupid". My view is "too bad you will  stand there".

I disagree. There can be a line, moreso in the context of one being an active duty (sailor) member. I will have to find the source to cite but I believe you and I can agree that one on active duty is required (ordered) to stand correct? Then you will stand as ordered to do so under military law. If she (or others on active duty) don't like the way things are ran you can stay in and change the system when you get to a level to write military orders or policy OR you can get out and move on with your life. That is one beauty of being a civilian, you have far more personal freedom than one would if one was on active duty.

I admit it is one reason I got out; I wanted my freedom to come and go as I pleased.


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## Brill (Sep 10, 2016)

Muppet said:


> You know what. No comment. I will get bombarded by a few for my comments.
> 
> M.



Fuck the few and never let anyone censor your views (as long as they don't violate TOR). This isn't North Korea...yet.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 10, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> Meh.
> 
> She's a dumb, young enlisted chick that needs mentorship and a harsh explanation of the difference between civilian and military expression when it comes to political movements. That's really about it.
> 
> I know we all get super sensitive about this, but dealing with the amount of military members in her demo I have at this point- she's being ignorant and impulsive. I can fix that.



Make and set an example. She ain't the only one doing it, she is just dumb enough to video it. Give her the boot and set the example, than boot the next 2 or 3 caught, and that shit will stop.

$.02


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## Muppet (Sep 10, 2016)

lindy said:


> Fuck the few and never let anyone censor your views (as long as they don't violate TOR). This isn't North Korea...yet.



Yeah, I know. Wanna know my view? This fuck is a hood rat savage that is acting the fool with the fist that does not represent BLM. Fuck her. Punish her. She knows how to act. She does not care. She would rather use the race card by pulling this bullshit, not standing in solidarity to some over paid cock face and holding her non BLM fist up.

In other news. There is an NFL player, a black man that wants to wear cleats made in honor of 9/11 but was told that he would be fined for doing so. This country is doomed. That's my view.

M.


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 10, 2016)

Disagree because sometimes restraint is the better strategy.  Especially when a topic gets you so angry that they words you type could be taken and twisted in a context that you did not intend.  Harder to explain your case in text, vs. verbally.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 10, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> She may get a mild verbal reprimand. Given the sensitive racial atmosphere that's been hysterically exploited by BLM, I don't think anybody in the military who values his/her position would dare go any further than that.


Hints how fucked the command structure of the military has become. Cowering to the political bullshit of today? Naw, chapter this bitch out.


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## Brill (Sep 10, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Make and set an example. She ain't the only one doing it, she is just dumb enough to video it. Give her the boot and set the example, than boot the next 2 or 3 caught, and that shit will stop.
> 
> $.02



Exactly. She should be #1 on the "right sizing" list!


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## Muppet (Sep 10, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Disagree because sometimes restraint is the better strategy.  Especially when a topic gets you so angry that they words you type could be taken and twisted in a context that you did not intend.  Harder to explain your case in text, vs. verbally.



Agree but people holding views back is what is wrong, in order to not offend. Tired of seeing this.

M.


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## Brill (Sep 10, 2016)

Muppet said:


> Agree but people holding views back is what is wrong, in order to not offend. Tired of seeing this.
> 
> M.



Your restraint offends me.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 10, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Disagree because sometimes restraint is the better strategy.  Especially when a topic gets you so angry that they words you type could be taken and twisted in a context that you did not intend.  Harder to explain your case in text, vs. verbally.


Restraint is for pussies.


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## CDG (Sep 10, 2016)

I don't agree with what she did, and I believe she should be punished.  Extra duty, LOC/LOR, etc.  Kicking her out?  That's so far over the top I'm a little surprised it's being offered as a plausible solution.  I think there's a surplus of emotion in a lot of posts on this topic.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 10, 2016)

So if a white dude held up his fist for white pride and refused to stand at attention for the flag/national anthem because he believes in Nazi bullshit or whatever, we would just give him a LOR and some extra duty? I think not, we would drum his ass out so quick it ain't even funny. Why? Because someone like that will divide people within units and cause a negative atmosphere withint a unit. We don't tolerate open racism and or disrespect to our country or the symbolic nature of our flag and anthem.

Let's call this what it is, a black women refusing to show respect for the flag and nation she is supposed to serve, while clenching her fist as a sign of black power. 

Furthermore,  it really pisses me off that we're having to discuss this. Shouldn't be a question about it. You either conform and serve with honor,  or you don't. When you don't you get chaptered out with a dishonorable on your 214.


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## compforce (Sep 10, 2016)

I agree that kicking her out is the wrong punishment.  Make the example and teach her the lesson at the same time.  45/45 on the Garrison Colors detail every day for Reveille and Taps.  In between she can go help clean the gravestones and plant flags at the local National Cemetary.  As a bonus, put her on the funeral detail for the post.  Let her understand that we stand out of respect not only for the Nation, but also for our Brothers and Sisters that gave their lives in defense of our ideals.

As far as sensitivity, I'm pretty sure that somewhere in her direct chain of command or NCO support channel there is someone that has a similar background to hers and who would be more than happy to explain why what she did was wrong....at length.  It's not discrimination if the person administering it is a part of the same group.


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 10, 2016)

It is the videoing and posting on social media that is causing me to take a hard line on this. Had she done what she did, got caught, and then got the "don't do that shit again" lecture, fine.  But she took it to video, and KNEW she was doing wrong.

Here is a longer version, listen to her after...she has no fear of consequences.


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## Totentanz (Sep 10, 2016)

While I won't be the one dragging her to the cross with nails in hand, I have no objection to servicemembers being unceremoniously shown the door after intentionally broadcasting baseless disrespect.  It's knowing right vs wrong and actively choosing "wrong".  Bye.


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 10, 2016)

Well...now shit gets interesting.  Daily Mail picked it up, which means it is now an international story.

Navy sailor sits for the national anthem in solidarity with Kaepernick


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## TLDR20 (Sep 10, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> I agree however I still believe she should be kicked out. Lesson learned and will send a message to others.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



So you see literally the dumbest shit. 

If I had a social media that only highlighted dumb shit cops did, or pilots, or lawyers or doctors, those would all be shitty profession by my book. Social media only shows us the worst/dumbest/funniest.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 10, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> So you see literally the dumbest shit.
> 
> If I had a social media that only highlighted dumb shit cops did, or pilots, or lawyers or doctors, those would all be shitty profession by my book. Social media only shows us the worst/dumbest/funniest.



No. I see a broad spectrum of good, bad and ugly.

Social media can show us the good side of the military. Like any of those videos showing graduation ceremonies from boot camp/RASP/etc


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## DocIllinois (Sep 10, 2016)

_"Like Tupac said..."_

This is someone who looks to musical and sports entertainers for moral guidance, which is a huge red flag that is indicative of her headspace.  

_"...only god can judge me..."  _

Now we've stepped into self-delusion.  This is a troubled person, IMO.  

_"I really don't care about nobody else's opinion."_

Sure, sailor, but your command will care a lot that your opinion may be seen by Joe Public as representing that of the DoD and US government.  Good luck with that.


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## Jay_Pew (Sep 10, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> It is the videoing and posting on social media that is causing me to take a hard line on this. Had she done what she did, got caught, and then got the "don't do that shit again" lecture, fine.  But she took it to video, and KNEW she was doing wrong.


Agreed, that is what most bothers me. My generations unhealthy obsession with posting their every breath on social media, especially so when they are doing "less than desirable things" they wouldn't want their parents seeing. Whether it's girls posting half naked pictures of themselves, or underage teens flaunting alchahol or other illegal substances on Instagram or whatever. The unhealthy obsession to receive gratification from strangers online is quite appalling to me, especially so when they are doing things that you shouldn't be providing evidence for. They have no grasp for the consequences of what they post.


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## AWP (Sep 10, 2016)

If you boot her, she wins. She becomes a martyr for "the cause" and extends her 15 min. of fame. You'll see her with a Sociology degree and commenting on CNN within 3-5 years as the head of some "Veterans Against xxxxx" think tank/ activist group. You kick her out after this one very visible act and you set a dangerous precedent for others looking for their 15 min. or just a way out of the service. If the mil kicks her out the backlash would be tremendous.

Everyone knows that what she did was wrong. She may even know it in her heart, I don't know. Irrelevant. Extra duty, LOC, and attempt to retrain. Then punt her if she continues her behavior.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Sep 10, 2016)

Only God can judge her......but Some Senior Chief needs to introduce her to the 1/4 mile lunge........

"You don't want to stand....cool....I'll make it so you can't!!!!!"

:-"


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 10, 2016)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Only God can judge her......but Some Senior Chief needs to introduce her to the 1/4 mile lunge........
> 
> "You don't want to stand....cool....I'll make it so you can't!!!!!"
> 
> :-"


Quoted for no reason other than your post made me laugh out loud.


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## Brill (Sep 11, 2016)

CDG said:


> Kicking her out?  That's so far over the top I'm a little surprised it's being offered as a plausible solution.  I think there's a surplus of emotion in a lot of posts on this topic.



If sailors are facing a QRB, why remove one who wants to remain in service but for X, makes it to the board whereas this "rockstar", who obviously has disdain for her country, gets a pass? If she stays in, she'll one day be in a leadership position.

Since she's at NAS P-cola, she's probably in Aviation.  Enjoy that NJP!

This sailor sided with Colin Kaepernick, sat out anthem.  | NavyTimes


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## CDG (Sep 11, 2016)

lindy said:


> If sailors are facing a QRB, why remove one who wants to remain in service but for X, makes it to the board whereas this "rockstar", who obviously has disdain for her country, gets a pass? If she stays in, she'll one day be in a leadership position.
> 
> Since she's at NAS P-cola, she's probably in Aviation.  Enjoy that NJP!
> 
> This sailor sided with Colin Kaepernick, sat out anthem.  | NavyTimes



I didn't say she should get a pass.  I said punish her.  The reality is that whatever training command she's at is going to be keeping a very close eye on her now, her gaining command will know who she is, and her leadership will not forget what happened.  The "if she stays in, she'll one day be in a leadership position" argument holds no water here.  The military as a whole is rife with people who have no business being in charge, yet stay in long enough to do just that.  Kicking her out makes her a BLM martyr of sorts and would kick this thing into overdrive. You'd have other black sailors who would do the same thing as a show of solidarity.  You just gonna kick all of them out?  Emotional reactions to minor events drive bigger emotional reactions.  With everything else going on, is this really the person who needs to be made an example of?  She's young, ignorant, and doesn't understand how the world and the military work yet.  Like @amlove21 said, she can be worked with.  If she can't, and she continues to disobey rules and regulations, then you do the paperwork each time until you have a legitimate case for an administrative, OTH, or dishonorable discharge.


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## Kheenbish (Sep 11, 2016)

On a side note I can't even count how many times I've seen people run into buildings or wait to walk out to not stand for a few minutes. Plus regs say while in a motor vehicle an individual must get out to salute the flag which never gets done either. We have more of a leadership problem with being afraid to act on punishments or being retrained to carry them out. 

(Not trying to justify this girl, she's obviously in the wrong.)


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## Brill (Sep 11, 2016)

Kicked out for BLM affiliation, no but because her intentional and willful act harms good order and discipline, yes.  Perhaps this is her sole act of military disobedience and was just a singular act.

But since the issue has been raised: how would military BLM-affiliates answer question 29.5 on a SF-86?



> 29.5 Have you EVER been a member of an organization that advocates or practices commission of acts of force or violence to discourage others from exercising their rights under the U.S. Constitution or any state of the United States with the specific intent to further such action?


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## Raksasa Kotor (Sep 11, 2016)

Kheenbish said:


> regs say while in a motor vehicle an individual must get out to salute the flag



Not in the Air Force or Marine Corps.


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## Kheenbish (Sep 11, 2016)

True, but in the Air Force/ on AF installation you do need to turn off music and sit at attention in the vehicle, which I can say I turn the music off but don't sit at attention.


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## amlove21 (Sep 11, 2016)

Kheenbish said:


> True, but in the Air Force/ on AF installation you do need to turn off music and sit at attention in the vehicle, which I can say I turn the music off but don't sit at attention.


No, you "should". Plenty of people don't You "should" do those things. And you "should" stand for Taps, and you "shouldn't" gossip. It seems to me that some in this thread that you get NJP for  failing to "should".

That's the heart of this issue. We are screaming for NJP for someone not doing what they're _highly encouraged to do. _Show me the "disrespect of patriotic music, customs, and courtesy" article of the UCMJ, and we have a starting point. Minus points for saying "Well, its definitely article 134!" So is beastiality, bad hygiene, and less than criminal sexual assault.


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## Brill (Sep 11, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Well...now shit gets interesting.  Daily Mail picked it up, which means it is now an international story.
> 
> Navy sailor sits for the national anthem in solidarity with Kaepernick



Russian, Iranian, etc press as well.


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## DA SWO (Sep 11, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> If you boot her, she wins. She becomes a martyr for "the cause" and extends her 15 min. of fame. You'll see her with a Sociology degree and commenting on CNN within 3-5 years as the head of some "Veterans Against xxxxx" think tank/ activist group. You kick her out after this one very visible act and you set a dangerous precedent for others looking for their 15 min. or just a way out of the service. If the mil kicks her out the backlash would be tremendous.
> 
> Everyone knows that what she did was wrong. She may even know it in her heart, I don't know. Irrelevant. Extra duty, LOC, and attempt to retrain. Then punt her if she continues her behavior.


Take her down one pay-grad which impacts her Navy career.


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## Brill (Sep 11, 2016)

I'm just throwing this out there: a form of self-righteousness was seen in Berghdal, Manning, Snowden, etc.

Is it better to stop it early or wait and use the behavior pattern to detect future potential offenders?


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## Marine0311 (Sep 11, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> No, you "should". Plenty of people don't You "should" do those things. And you "should" stand for Taps, and you "shouldn't" gossip. It seems to me that some in this thread that you get NJP for  failing to "should".
> 
> That's the heart of this issue. We are screaming for NJP for someone not doing what they're _highly encouraged to do. _Show me the "disrespect of patriotic music, customs, and courtesy" article of the UCMJ, and we have a starting point. Minus points for saying "Well, its definitely article 134!" So is beastiality, bad hygiene, and less than criminal sexual assault.



You're hanging your hat on "should"?.

I disagree and here's what I have:

Source: Rules for Saluting US Flag | Military.com

SEC. 595. MILITARY SALUTE FOR THE FLAG DURING THE NATIONAL ANTHEM 
  BY MEMBERS OF THE ARMED FORCES NOT IN 
  UNIFORM AND BY VETERANS.

  Section 301(b)(1) of title 36, United States Code, is amended by 
striking subparagraphs (A) through (C) and inserting the following new 
subparagraphs:
  ``(A) individuals in uniform should give the 
  military salute at the first note of the anthem and 
  maintain that position until the last note;
  ``(B) members of the Armed Forces and veterans who 
  are present but not in uniform may render the military
  salute in the manner provided for individuals in 
  uniform; and
  ``(C) all other persons present should face the flag 
  and stand at attention with their right hand over the 
  heart, and men not in uniform, if applicable, should 
  remove their headdress with their right hand and hold it 
  at the left shoulder, the hand being over the heart;
---------------------------------------------------------------------
Air Force specific:

Source: http://static.e-publishing.af.mil/production/1/af_cc/publication/afi1-1/afi1-1.pdf

1.6.2. Respect for the Flag. The Flag of the United States is one of the most enduring and sacred symbols of our country. It represents the principles and ideals you have pledged to defend and for which many have made the ultimate sacrifice. Airmen shall treat it with the same respect due to the highest military and public officials. Airmen will never burn (except for reverent disposition of an unserviceable Flag), deface, mutilate, or treat with contempt or any other form of disrespect. (18 U.S.C. § 700; AFI 34-1201).

1.6.2.1. When in uniform, you salute the Flag as it passes in front of you in a procession or parade. Salute six paces before the Flag passes before you, and hold your salute until the Flag has passed six paces beyond your position.

*1.6.2.2. National Anthem. You must show respect for the National Anthem and Flag both indoors and outdoors, in uniform and in civilian clothing. (36 U.S.C. § 301).*

1.6.2.2.1. Indoor Ceremonies. When in uniform, face the Flag (if visible) or music. Stand at attention at the first note and maintain that position until the last note without rendering a salute. If in civilian clothing, stand at attention and place your right hand over your heart.

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Also this seems to be U.S Navy specific although the date on the PDF is 1990.

Sailor Faces Discipline After Viral Flag Protest | Military.com

_Navy__ rules  state that troops must stand and face the flag when the National Anthem is played. Troops in uniform must salute, while troops not in uniform must stand at attention and place the right hand over the heart. These rules mean that her behavior could fall afoul of Article 92 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice, failure  to obey a lawful general order or regulation.


1205. Procedure During Playing of National Anthem.

1. Whenever the National Anthem is played, all naval service personnel not in formation, shall stand at attention and face the national ensign.


Main Source: http://www.marines.mil/Portals/59/Publications/United States Navy Regulations.pdf

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
_


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## amlove21 (Sep 11, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> You're hanging your hat on "should"?.
> 
> I disagree and here's what I have:
> 
> *rest of post*


Ok- so, what, then? People that don't show respect for the flag are discharged after they're served with a felony? What is "respect"? How is that quantified? What's the punishment for "disrespect for the National Anthem and Flag?"

This is going down a ridiculous road here- I will just say that, pragmatically, there is no fucking way to find a way to quantify "level of disrespect" in an individual person and get their commander to recommend discharge via NJP. You're literally arguing about ideology, your personal opinion, and how to manufacture the most comfortable unicorn saddle.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 11, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> Ok- so, what, then? People that don't show respect for the flag are discharged after they're served with a felony? What is "respect"? How is that quantified? What's the punishment for "disrespect for the National Anthem and Flag?"
> 
> This is going down a ridiculous road here- I will just say that, pragmatically, there is no fucking way to find a way to quantify "level of disrespect" in an individual person and get their commander to recommend discharge via NJP. You're literally arguing about ideology, your personal opinion, and how to manufacture the most comfortable unicorn saddle.





She made her own choice to sit down, not stand up and as I have shown, not follow proper, lawful order(s). I stated what I thought the punishment should be. It is my opinion. You and I disagree. 

I am not sure how deep to get into this in response to your questions stated in the first paragraph. She is required to stand (she did not), she didn't show the proper respect as required to,  (I have outlined in my sources) and I believe the punishment should be a dishonorable discharge. Her getting a felony is on her head.

As for your last part I'm not quite sure how to respond. Yes it is true I am stating and arguing my personal opinion (aren't we all?). Throughout this thread I am stating my opinion and making my arguments,  then using sources to back up my arguments.


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## amlove21 (Sep 11, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> I am not sure how deep to get into this in response to your questions stated in the first paragraph. She is required to stand (she did not), she didn't show the proper respect as required to,  (I have outlined in my sources) and I believe the punishment should be a dishonorable discharge. Her getting a felony is on her head.


Meh, fuck it, let's call it 'for sake of discussion'. 

She is required to stand. She didn't. Thank goodness that common sense plays a role and we don't make blanket rules for this reason. She made a bad choice and fell on the wrong side of the black and white. It's up to guys and gals like you and me to decide if this lack of judgement speaks to her character and we get rid of her. 



Marine0311 said:


> As for your last part I'm not quite sure how to respond. Yes it is true I am stating and arguing my personal opinion (aren't we all?). Throughout this thread I am stating my opinion and making my arguments,  then using sources to back up my arguments.


I think something we need to clear up is the difference between "theory and practice". I assume you mean to speak in a hypothetical, "I am the king of the world" sort of way, and you're stating your opinions for the sake of discussion. 

Bottom line- to say that those that don't "show respect" for a song or a ritual are due an immediate dishonorable discharge is logistically stupid, wasteful, and nearly impossible to objectively quantify and enforce. It's fine to rail on about on the internet, but in reality it's never going to be a thing we waste our time and effort on _and it should not be. _

It's a hot button issue on a national stage and we need people to scream "DISCHARGE THAT TRAITOR" and "SHE'S THE REASON WE HAVE OUR FREEDOMS". It's just how our society is now. 

But _when _one of my students does this, I can guarantee you it won't be an immediate dishonorable discharge, and I will 100% bet that it never will be. 
We have a myriad of rules in the UCMJ that we routinely interpret to make them work with common sense- the easiest example of this is Article 125. - and making blanket rules with the harshest of penalties isn't a mature way to talk about these issues. 

Just my opinion.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 11, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> Meh, fuck it, let's call it 'for sake of discussion'.
> 
> She is required to stand. She didn't. Thank goodness that common sense plays a role and we don't make blanket rules for this reason. She made a bad choice and fell on the wrong side of the black and white. It's up to guys and gals like you and me to decide if this lack of judgement speaks to her character and we get rid of her.



That is a good point it is up to us as NCOs and above to decide that.



> I think something we need to clear up is the difference between "theory and practice". I assume you mean to speak in a hypothetical, "I am the king of the world" sort of way, and you're stating your opinions for the sake of discussion.
> 
> Bottom line- to say that those that don't "show respect" for a song or a ritual are due an immediate dishonorable discharge is logistically stupid, wasteful, and nearly impossible to objectively quantify and enforce. It's fine to rail on about on the internet, but in reality it's never going to be a thing we waste our time and effort on _and it should not be. _
> 
> ...




Mmmm....I am stating my opinion but not in a "king of the world" way or....I think you are saying if I was to wave my magic wand and make it so then yes (I think that's what you mean).

I suppose in a way that's true. I can sit here on my laptop and say my opinion, state my arguments, find my sources and back it up.

Bottom line: at the end of the day (or when this issue dies off the front page) you and I will agree to disagree. We both stated our views, opinion and beliefs.

If one of your students did that I bet we can both agree you would put your foot deep in the anal orifice.


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## amlove21 (Sep 11, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> If one of your students did that I bet we can both agree you would put your foot deep in the anal orifice.


Unless they like that sort of thing then NO WAY I will make them do homework or something else they DONT like. 

lol, yeah, no need to agree. We can just disagree- brothers can do that.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 11, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> Unless they like that sort of thing then NO WAY I will make them do homework or something else they DONT like.
> 
> lol, yeah, no need to agree. We can just disagree- brothers can do that.


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## TLDR20 (Sep 11, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> Unless they like that sort of thing then NO WAY I will make them do homework or something else they DONT like.
> 
> lol, yeah, no need to agree. We can just disagree- brothers can do that.



Best way to punish a student is not to smoke them. I would make them write essays, then make them read them out loud. A smoke session just doesn't cut it on the really in shape studs. A hand written single spaced 4 page paper will ruin a guys night though.


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## Muppet (Sep 11, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> Unless they like that sort of thing then NO WAY I will make them do homework or something else they DONT like.
> 
> lol, yeah, no need to agree. We can just disagree- brothers can do that.



Wait! You guys did not call each other names and unfriend each other! 

M.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 11, 2016)

Muppet said:


> Wait! You guys did not call each other names and unfriend each other!
> 
> M.



Not in the least haha.


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## Muppet (Sep 11, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> Not in the least haha.



Perish the thought on brothers, not agreeing with something, still good to go. Well done. And I was being sarcastic...

M.


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## amlove21 (Sep 11, 2016)

Muppet said:


> Wait! You guys did not call each other names and unfriend each other!
> 
> M.


It's almost like YOU CAN TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE AND NOT CALL THEM NAMES OR BE OVER-EMOTIONALLY INVOLVED.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 11, 2016)

Muppet said:


> Perish the thought on brothers, not agreeing with something, still good to go. Well done. And I was being sarcastic...
> 
> M.



That's the beauty of this community.



amlove21 said:


> It's almost like YOU CAN TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE AND NOT CALL THEM NAMES OR BE OVER-EMOTIONALLY INVOLVED.



Now you're just talking crazy! Imagine what we could accomplish in the world!


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## Muppet (Sep 11, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> It's almost like YOU CAN TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE AND NOT CALL THEM NAMES OR BE OVER-EMOTIONALLY INVOLVED.



I DISAGREE JERK OFF!  Kidding bro.

M.


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## amlove21 (Sep 11, 2016)

Muppet said:


> I DISAGREE JERK OFF!  Kidding bro.
> 
> M.


lol


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## Muppet (Sep 11, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> lol



I know for me example, I am hot headed wit my opinions but welcome discussions as long as I learn something. Now, on facebook, I will just start shit with dumb asses that have no back up info or proof, just to piss em off.

M.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 11, 2016)




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## AWP (Sep 11, 2016)

amlove21 said:


> It's almost like YOU CAN TOTALLY DISAGREE WITH SOMEONE AND NOT CALL THEM NAMES OR BE OVER-EMOTIONALLY INVOLVED.



That's not how the internet works.


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 11, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> That's not how the internet works.


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## Brill (Sep 12, 2016)

Muppet said:


> Wait! You guys did not call each other names and unfriend each other!
> 
> M.



Lookout for revenge porn!


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## Centermass (Sep 12, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Best way to punish a student is not to smoke them. I would make them write essays, then make them read them out loud. A smoke session just doesn't cut it on the really in shape studs. A hand written single spaced 4 page paper will ruin a guys night though.



So will KP duty peeling 3 million potato's.


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## Ooh-Rah (Sep 25, 2016)

Wait a minute?!?

There might be consequences to my actions?  

Serious question...if you are an "Intelligence Specialist" and have a security clearance, shouldn't y0u have the most minimal ability to be self-aware and know that your appearing to question your loyalty to the United States might have an affect on your ability to retain that security clearance?

Think, people.

Second Sailor 'Under Review' for Refusing to Stand for Anthem | Military.com

Sailor claims Navy revoked security clearance after she disrespected flag

A_ US Navy Reservist was allegedly stripped of her security clearance after refusing to stand for the national anthem in protest.
The news came by way of a social media post from Black Lives Matter affiliate and Senior Justice Writer for the New York Daily News Shaun King, who gave insight into Naval Reservist Janaye Ervin’s side of the story.
King reported that Janaye Ervin was an eight-year veteran and an Intelligence Specialist in the Naval Reserves allegedly faced repression for refusing to stand for the national anthem.

According to King, “her security clearance has been revoked and she has even been threatened with jail.”

In an official statement on her Facebook page, Ervin said that “The Navy has decided to punish me for defending the Constitution and has taken away my equipment I need to do my Naval job,” claiming that the punishment stems from her refusal to stand on September 19th of this year.

In her statement, she goes on to say that “ I made the conscious decision to not stand for the Star Spangled Banner because I feel like a hypocrite, singing about “land of the free” when, I know that only applies to some Americans. I will gladly stand again, when ALL AMERICANS are afforded the same freedom.”_


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## SpitfireV (Sep 25, 2016)

That sounds like the opposite of disloyal IMO. That said, leave the Navy if you want to protest. It's a conflict of interest at the very least. Being in any kind of uniform while making a political point- and that's what this is- is always unprofessional IMO and goes against the political neutrality that anyone working for the government should observe.


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## Crusader74 (Sep 25, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> She may get a mild verbal reprimand. Given the sensitive racial atmosphere that's been hysterically exploited by BLM, I don't think anybody in the military who values his/her position would dare go any further than that.



Which is exactly why the boot should go in.  A fine, negative annual appraisal or both. What is to say now, she disobeys a lawful command because it is counter to her beliefs? She should be investigated now by CID to ascertain if she is part of the BLM movement.


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## Florida173 (Sep 25, 2016)

SpitfireV said:


> That sounds like the opposite of disloyal IMO. That said, leave the Navy if you want to protest. It's a conflict of interest at the very least. Being in any kind of uniform while making a political point- and that's what this is- is always unprofessional IMO and goes against the political neutrality that anyone working for the government should observe.



Could be a violation of the Hatch Act too.


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## Brill (Sep 25, 2016)

I guess this is what an insider threat looks like.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 25, 2016)

Article 134 is a helluva drug...

After the first incident, a little corrective training and a summarized Article 15.

Doubling down by making a follow-on political statement IN UNIFORM while being investigated for the first offense?  Chapter time.

Bye, Felicia.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 26, 2016)

What, no credit for making references to Dave Chappelle, Rick James, Ice Cube, *and* MC Hammer (kind of ) in the same post??


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## AWP (Sep 26, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> What, no credit for making references to Dave Chappelle, Rick James, Ice Cube, *and* MC Hammer (kind of ) in the same post??



If you have to explain your post...


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## Marine0311 (Sep 26, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> If you have to explain your post...



...you should beat your face and lose the Internet.


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## AWP (Sep 26, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> ...you should beat your face and lose the Internet.



You should go read a book. Oh, my bad, Marine.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 26, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> You should go read a book. Oh, my bad, Marine.



Ohhhhhh that's just MEAN MAN!


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## Marauder06 (Sep 27, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> If you have to explain your post...



...you should help your friends extend their pop culture knowledge past the Kardashians?


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## Gunz (Sep 27, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> If you have to explain your post...



Than u nuthin but a G thang


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## BloodStripe (Sep 28, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> You should go read a book. Oh, my bad, Marine.



The First Children's Picture Book, 1658's Orbis Sensualium Pictus |  Open Culture

I've got you covered, @Marine0311


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## policemedic (Sep 28, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> The First Children's Picture Book, 1658's Orbis Sensualium Pictus |  Open Culture
> 
> I've got you covered, @Marine0311



Pffft.  He's 'reading' Playboy.


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## Marine0311 (Sep 28, 2016)

policemedic said:


> Pffft.  He's 'reading' Playboy.



This man knows.


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## Gunz (Sep 28, 2016)

policemedic said:


> Pffft.  He's 'reading' Playboy.




One handed, as per regulations.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 29, 2016)

I would like to know when the Navy, all branches actually, will investigate every case of a person driving an automobile on base during colors. You know damn well most can hear the music and/or see other cars stop but keep on driving anyways. How is one different from the other?


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## Totentanz (Sep 29, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> I would like to know when the Navy, all branches actually, will investigate every case of a person driving an automobile on base during colors. You know damn well most can hear the music and/or see other cars stop but keep on driving anyways. How is one different from the other?


Motivation - specifically, laziness vs disaffection.


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## DA SWO (Sep 29, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> I would like to know when the Navy, all branches actually, will investigate every case of a person driving an automobile on base during colors. You know damn well most can hear the music and/or see other cars stop but keep on driving anyways. How is one different from the other?


People driving their cars don't post Youtube videos.


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## BloodStripe (Sep 29, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> People driving their cars don't post Youtube videos.



This sounds like something Hillary Clinton would say
 No criminal intent, right?


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 31, 2016)

- Update on this  -

Navy Sailor Who Refused to Stand for Anthem Gets Exactly the Punishment She Deserves

_While the U.S. Navy was not pursuing charges, they did not have much to say on the matter. A Navy Reserve Forces spokesperson said only that “Petty Officer Janaye Ervin has fulfilled her obligation of enlistment and was honorably discharged from the United States Navy.”
_


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## Bypass (Jan 1, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> - Update on this  -
> 
> Navy Sailor Who Refused to Stand for Anthem Gets Exactly the Punishment She Deserves
> 
> _While the U.S. Navy was not pursuing charges, they did not have much to say on the matter. A Navy Reserve Forces spokesperson said only that “Petty Officer Janaye Ervin has fulfilled her obligation of enlistment and was honorably discharged from the United States Navy.”_


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 1, 2017)

Ooh-Rah said:


> - Update on this  -
> 
> Navy Sailor Who Refused to Stand for Anthem Gets Exactly the Punishment She Deserves
> 
> _While the U.S. Navy was not pursuing charges, they did not have much to say on the matter. A Navy Reserve Forces spokesperson said only that “Petty Officer Janaye Ervin has fulfilled her obligation of enlistment and was honorably discharged from the United States Navy.”_



Good job Navy!


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## Hillclimb (Jan 1, 2017)

So she went to her MOS school only to get discharged and sent on her way with educational benefits? Or how does that work?


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## Salt USMC (Jan 1, 2017)

It said that she had about eight years in at the time of the incident, so unless she got a BCD or some type of punitive discharge then she's entitled to her VA benefits.  She had already lost her clearance, and since she worked in a cleared position for a government contractor as her civilian job she also lost her regular job.  This is really a double-whammy.

What Happened To Janaye Ervin: Navy Punished, Threatened And More, Ex-Sailor Says In Exclusive Interview


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## Gunz (Jan 2, 2017)

I don't give a ragged rat's ass about this bitch. Fuck her. She's lucky she's not in the brig. When you're in uniform, you're representing something bigger than yourself. This bitch was showboating. That's all it was. All that crap about her race being persecuted is groundless rhetorical bullshit.


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