# Ahmaud Arbery Shooting



## Cookie_ (May 6, 2020)

For anyone who hasn't seen this yet, this article is describes the events and the video.

The jist of the situation is this.

Ahmaud Arbery was jogging through a neighborhood in Brunswick, Georgia. A man named George McMichael felt the Arbery matched the description of someone burglarizing houses under construction. George grabs a .357, and his son Travis grabs a shotgun. 
They follow Arbery down the street, yelling at him to stop because they want to question him. When he doesn't, they speed ahead in an attempt to block the road. Travis gets out of the truck (with the shotgun) and stands in front of it.

At this point, we get cellphone video of what happens next.
Arbery runs up to the truck and begins passing it on the right side. We can't see what happened next, but he has crossed over and is wrestling for control of the shotgun with Travis, whom proceeds to shoot Arbery twice, killing him. 
Travis and George claim they were enacting a citizen's arrest, and subsequently not charged back in Frebuary when this incident happened The fact that George was formerly a Brunswick District Attorney’s Office investigator is surely unrelated. It wasn't until this video was released that this shooting started to get looked at in more depth.

Now, I'm not law enforcement, but I know a decent number of you on the board are. I want your opinions.

Are Travis and George seemingly guilty of a crime, or is this more a citizen's arrest gone wrong?

From my(non-legal) perspective after seeing the video, would Arbery's attempt to disarm Travis not be seen as self defense? Or is it alone self defense after the other person physically touches you?

I know these are broad topics, but I feel like this case is going to become a firestorm.


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## Kraut783 (May 6, 2020)

Citizens arrest?  No crime was witnessed, just call the police....people are freaking stupid.

FUBAR

tabbed for a more lengthy follow up.....


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## SaintKP (May 6, 2020)

Citizen arrests are dumb, people are dumb.

I'm not a LEO but I don't see how this is self defense and I'd be amazed if they go for Stand Your Ground. 

Would love to see the interrogation video...


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## AWP (May 6, 2020)

I fail to see the problem.

Warm regards,
George Zimmerman


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## Ooh-Rah (May 6, 2020)

AWP said:


> I fail to see the problem.
> 
> Warm regards,
> George Zimmerman


Nice!

I've spent the past hour trying to shoe-horn in a Zimmerman line but could not come up with the setup.  Well done.


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## SpitfireV (May 6, 2020)

It's like Kraut said, prima facie, there was no need for them to go anywhere near the guy. There wasn't a crime or even a reasonable suspicion of a crime ("matching a description" is so vague) and it wasn't out in the whops where it would take police a long time to turn up so...have the police do what your taxes pay them for.


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## Bambi (May 6, 2020)

Yeah let’s not call the police instead let’s go murder an innocent man because AMERICA!!! The two of them need to rot in a cell.


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## Marauder06 (May 6, 2020)

-this looks bad

-first reports are almost always wrong

-there is almost always more to the story than what one shaky couple-second perspective shows

-this looks bad


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## AWP (May 6, 2020)

I'm just curious what led to him wrestling for control of a weapon. The second that happens, someone dies and he's in a 2v1 situation. Unless you're john Wick, you don't survive that encounter.

This will play out like Zimmerman.


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## Marauder06 (May 6, 2020)

I watched the video, and I'll also add that that even if the victim committed the crime of which he was suspected (I think that's the story?), that's a terrible way for him to die.


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## Marauder06 (May 6, 2020)

AWP said:


> I'm just curious what led to him wrestling for control of a weapon. The second that happens, someone dies and he's in a 2v1 situation. Unless you're john Wick, you don't survive that encounter.
> 
> This will play out like Zimmerman.



I wonder if he thought he had to go it.  Two armed men are after me in a neighborhood I don't know, for a reason I don't understand?  Doing the unexpected and grabbing that gun might be my only means of making it out of there.


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## AWP (May 7, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> I wonder if he thought he had to go it.  Two armed men are after me in a neighborhood I don't know, for a reason I don't understand?  Doing the unexpected and grabbing that gun might be my only means of making it out of there.



I understand and know that we don't know all of the story. On the surface though, you're in a 2v1, they're armed and you aren't, in a stand your ground state, after the immense coverage given to the Trayvon Martin case under nearly identical circumstances? Going for their gun seems astonomically impossible to end in your favor.

Let me clear though: this NEVER should have happened and those two assholes are in the wrong, but will be judged to be in the "right" unless someone can conclusively show that they attacked him first. Being a dick (looking at you, George) is not a crime and absent any proof  they attacked first, I don't see how they can take a murder or even a manslaughter charge.

There HAS to be more to the story though. I hope there is and I hope they rot for a long time in a "pound them in the ass" prison.


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## Cookie_ (May 7, 2020)

AWP said:


> I'm just curious what led to him wrestling for control of a weapon. The second that happens, someone dies and he's in a 2v1 situation. Unless you're john Wick, you don't survive that encounter.
> 
> This will play out like Zimmerman.



They followed him in their truck for two blocks yelling at him "Stop, we wanna talk to you". Before what happens in the video occured.

Given that the one guy was standing in front of the truck with the gun, it's quite possible Arbery didn't know they were armed until he started passing the truck.

Fight or flight kicks in at that point.


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## ThunderHorse (May 7, 2020)

Those two assholes belong in a cell.


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## 757 (May 7, 2020)

Here are Georgia's laws regarding citizens arrest. In particular, 4-60 stood out to me: "A private person may arrest an offender if the offense is *committed* *in his presence* or *within his immediate knowledge*. If the offense is a *felony* and the offender is escaping or attempting to escape, a private person may arrest him upon reasonable and probable grounds of suspicion."

Robbery is a felony in Georgia. Theft is, typically, a misdemeanor in Georgia. Allegedly the two guys pursued Ahmaud because he matched the description of a guy who had been stealing from houses in the neighborhood.

Apparently, Greg McMichael worked in the DA's office once upon a time.

At first glance, this looks really bad for the McMichael family. With quarantine in full effect, I doubt the robbery's happened in broad daylight, meaning: 1) the description of the perp was probably something generic along the lines of "black male" and 2) why would you chase a random guy, seemingly minding his own business while jogging on a public street, with your guns drawn shouting orders at him. Like @Cookie_ said, fight or flight.

I'm not a LEO; however, working with attorneys for a few years has given me a unique perspective which some may find useful. In general, I have gleaned that making a citizens arrest is typically a bad idea. Beside it being potentially hazardous, one can unintentionally/unknowingly break a law leaving oneself open to legal repercussions.


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## Blizzard (May 7, 2020)

Regardless of this ultimately plays out in the court, these guys were assholes.

They armed themselves, then went out and  selected some random guy.  Followed him and attempted to do what?...interrogate him?...with weapons in hand?

How would any of us have responded had we been on the receiving end of such idiocy? My guess is that at a minimum, most, if not all, would tell them to fuck off.

Questioning, apprehending, detaining, etc...none of that was their job or responsibility.  There was no immediate threat.  They just have easily could've dialed 911 and followed without interaction with the victim.  So, nah, fuck these two assholes.


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## medicchick (May 7, 2020)

Bambi said:


> Yeah let’s not call the police instead let’s go murder an innocent man because AMERICA!!! The two of them need to rot in a cell.


They did according to the article then went after him anyway.


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## Totentanz (May 7, 2020)

757 said:


> With quarantine in full effect, I doubt the robbery's happened in broad daylight,



I don't disagree with the rest of your post, just going to point out that this happened February 23rd; quarantine (or stay-at-home orders, for the pedantic) didn't come into effect until about a month later. (Also worth noting that police departments hadn't curtailed or reduced activity at that point)

I'm willing to wait for all facts to come out; it's hard for me to picture what kind of background info casts the McMichaels in a good light.


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## Kraut783 (May 7, 2020)

I am curious what the subjects initially said happened....it's their story to tell then, seeing that it happened in February. Now with video of it coming out, which will probably not go with their initial story...I see GBI hammering them.

I keep waiting for better reporting coming out.


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## 757 (May 7, 2020)

The timing was critical for my argument, if the thefts happened in the middle of the day, that opens up a lot of different possibilities. Thanks for the catch @Totentanz


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## ThunderHorse (May 7, 2020)

After three prosecutors recuse themselves, the case gets transferred to a different DA's office, and the video gets published.  In less than 12 hours after the video is published, warrants issued and arrests made.  Murder and Aggravated assault.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1258552835253383169


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## Kraut783 (May 7, 2020)

GBI ain't playing, as it should be.


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## Marauder06 (May 7, 2020)

I thought about it for a while, and I can only come up with one semi-plausible way that this wasn't a straight up "life-in-prison" murder, and it's not a good one.  

Off camera, several minutes before the footage we've all seen, the victim actually DOES commit a burglary. Or some other crime for which a reasonable person would use lethal force to effect a citizen's arrest. In this scenario, the victim is not "jogging," he's fleeing the scene. After a pursuit, which we don't see in this footage, he knows he's caught and goes for the gun, which is present but not pointed at him. On top of the earlier crime(s) that's assault, and attempted larceny, from which a reasonable person can be expected to use lethal force to protect themselves. And right about that time is when the footage we see, starts.

I have no evidence to suggest that's what happened. I'm just trying to come up with other reasons a prosecutor may have elected to not have the two men involved tossed in jail earlier.

I also want to re-iterate my earlier statement that even if there was an earlier burglary, as alleged, the alleged perpetrator shouldn't have had to die for it.

Sometimes things are exactly the way they first appear. However, I've seen too many times how people will seize on first reports--which are almost always incomplete, if not flatout wrong--and use them to support their biases and their politics. I've also seen how people will selectively edit a video to do the same, or make something about race that simply isn't. 

...and I've also seen too many examples of legitimate racism involving, or leading to, murder.  And that might be exactly what happened here.  Right now it sure looks that way.

In my mind, we still don't have enough evidence to make an informed decision based on a totality of the facts, because all of the facts haven't emerged. I think arresting the two alleged shooters was a good call, but there's still a lot here that needs to get unpacked. I'm going to continue to be interested in this case, but I'm going to wait for more evidence to emerge before I take a solid position.


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## 757 (May 8, 2020)

Excellent article published today. The authors key points are located about half way through under the "My take" section:

"As a law enforcement officer, I have to practice objectivity. On most calls for service, I am not present to see the allegations presented by a civilian regarding an assault or similar allegation against another person. Objectivity comes naturally to me by practice.

I want you, the reader, to practice your best to be objective with me. Put aside the forced “two white men kill an unarmed black man” racism narrative that is being pushed by the media and lets consider the facts at hand. I will address those issues later.

(1) _Legalities of the Incident_

The Legalities of the incident are first and foremost important factors to this tragedy is to be judged. The two overarching legal issues here are that of a citizens arrest (a) and self defense (b).

(a) Given that the actions by the McMichaels – who determined to locate and detain Arbery as a suspect in a series of burglaries – to try and affect an arrest. The two men essentially instigate the entirety of the incident. Therefore must determine first if the citizen arrest itself was justifiable.

There are two key issues with the McMichael’s claims of a citizen’s arrest. First, at best, the incident at hand was tantamount to a trespassing incident. No burglary took place on this date and time and therefore the “citizen arrest” in this instance is unlawful (see law above) as the crime committed was no longer taking place.

Now, as a police officer, there are times where I must detained people on the basis of suspicion of a crime. This is a lawful act in my duties. And sometimes we are wrong. Police officers can detain and arrest in felonies, misdemeanors, and infractions (only if present and witnessed by the officer).

The statue above does not allow citizens to affect an arrest for anyone for a crime below a misdemeanor.

Now lets suggest the McMichael’s thought a burglary had just taken place. Is their platform solid? Even in law enforcement, officers must be careful about the action of detaining or arresting someone based on the crime at hand. We call it, “having a solid platform.” It isn’t worth the fight (literally) at the present moment or later in court (via civil lawsuits) to justify why you had to subdue the jaywalker with flurry of baton strikes. It’s not worth the battle. Now had the same use of force taken place against someone wanted for murder, then the battle is worthwhile.

The call to 911 made by someone among the McMichael’s party does nothing to defend the mindset that they believed a burglary had just taken place. At best it suggest suspicion of prior incidents.

This therefore violates another key portion of the legal statue that states the incident must be committed “in his presence or immediate knowledge of.” A “stale” felony (one that occurred at a different time) does not warrant a civilian to act to arrest anyone.

Furthermore, it is difficult to suggest that Arbery was attempting to flee. Arbery can be seen jogging steadily toward the McMichael’s truck (which was parked ahead of him waiting) – not running away from him. Had Arbery desired to get away, he could easily flee toward the wooded side yards of the streets he ran on – not jog through the street in plain view.

(b) Self-defense.

Georgia is a “stand your ground” State. In such states, individuals who are on the receiving end of unlawful violence need not back down before defending themselves with reasonable force. Such a removal of a need to stand down is similar to the right afforded to law enforcement (CPC 835) but does not extend them the duty to place themselves in such situations with authority. Gregory being a former law enforcement official lost similar authority and rights when he retired.

Other states that do not have “stand your ground” laws limit the scope of self defense to homes or specified areas. While those states don’t explicitly suggest the right to self-defense outside certain areas, it is understood to be both reasonable and implied that one may defense themselves to a violent attack.

Deadly force is also applicable if the person reasonably believes that the attacker poses a threat of great bodily injury or death. The law does note that (a) you cannot be the aggressor and (b) you cannot be involved in the crime."
Many have attacked “stand your ground” laws especially in the wake of Trayvon Martin’s death at the hand of Andrew Zimmerman. But the legalities behind the law are not an issue – what is an issue is the perversion of the law in the minds of vigilantes like Zimmerman and in this case the McMichael’s.

In fact the “stand your ground law” gave Arbery the right to fight with all his might and try and disarm Travis.

The McMichael’s did not have a legal basis to detain or arrest Arbery and therefore were indeed the aggressors in this situation. Also consider the video. While obscured and very short in length, the initial shot happens almost immediately upon contact between Arbery and Travis. I would venture to judge that there was hardly any time to suggest that Arbery posed any grave danger to Travis, especially given that Travis was armed and Arbery was not. This, therefore, makes Travis the aggressor.

At minimum, the case should be forward by the DA as voluntary manslaughter – if not murder. In my opinion, especially with the lack of standing on either legal issue above, a charge for murder is most accurate."


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## Totentanz (May 8, 2020)

Really not looking good for the prosecutor's office: DA allegedly refused to allow police to make arrests in shooting death of jogger Ahmaud Abery



> BRUNSWICK — Two Glynn County commissioners say District Attorney Jackie Johnson’s office refused to allow Glynn police to make arrests immediately after the Feb. 23 shooting death of Ahmaud Abery.
> 
> 
> Travis McMichael, 34, and his father Greg McMichael, 64, were arrested Thursday, more than two months after the fatal shooting.
> ...



The rest is at the link.


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## ThunderHorse (May 8, 2020)

Totentanz said:


> Really not looking good for the prosecutor's office: DA allegedly refused to allow police to make arrests in shooting death of jogger Ahmaud Abery
> 
> 
> 
> The rest is at the link.


Man, a lot of DAs in Georgia are trying to get disbarred.


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## Totentanz (May 8, 2020)

757 said:


> Excellent article published today. The authors key points are located about half way through under the "My take" section:



I don't disagree with the material points made by the author, but that article is a grammatical and factual nightmare. 

E.g. I don't know who Andrew Zimmerman is, but George Zimmerman is the name of the man who killed Trayvon Martin.

The statute he quotes toward the top of the article doesn't place the cutoff for an arrest by a private person at the division between misdemeanor and infraction - it explicitly requires that the crime be a felony.  While we can split the hairs, yes that includes "crimes below a misdemeanor".  But the point being made is whether or not the arrest was in compliance with the Georgia statue, which has nothing to do with "below a misdemeanor".  It's an unnecessary deviation from what's written and seems to cloud a fairly bright line in the law requiring that a felony be witnessed by the arresting individual.

Again, I agree with many of the points he makes - I just think he needs to do a better job of supporting them.


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## Kraut783 (May 8, 2020)

Still should have made the arrest and let the DA drop the case once it was filed with them....not sure why they called the DA's office while on scene.


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## Marauder06 (May 10, 2020)

More info on this story:

Cops review new video of man who appears to be Ahmaud Arbery


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## BloodStripe (May 10, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> More info on this story:
> 
> Cops review new video of man who appears to be Ahmaud Arbery



Doesn't matter if he stole anything or not. That doesn't give you the right to shoot them unless they were a threat to your life, which stealing construction tools is not. We have a judicial system for a reason.


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## Blizzard (May 10, 2020)

BloodStripe said:


> Doesn't matter if he stole anything or not. That doesn't give you the right to shoot them unless they were a threat to your life, which stealing construction tools is not. We have a judicial system for a reason.


Like the article said, trespass at most. Only he knows what he was doing there but I have a fair amount of new construction where I live.  A number of most neighbors have consistently walked the sites while under construction.


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## Marauder06 (May 10, 2020)

BloodStripe said:


> Doesn't matter if he stole anything or not. That doesn't give you the right to shoot them unless they were a threat to your life, which stealing construction tools is not. We have a judicial system for a reason.



I think that's a bit of an oversimplification of the situation, brother.  Stealing construction tools is not a threat to one's life, in most circumstances.  However, assaulting someone and trying to take their property, especially when that property is a loaded shotgun--if that's what happened--makes a completely different story.

Additionally, citizen's arrest is a legitimate part of our judicial system... again, if that's what happened.

The facts here are still very fuzzy. I couldn't tell from the photos that the same person on camera in the construction site was the same person who was gunned down a few minutes later. Not only is the person not identifiable, there is no clear date/time stamp. This image could have been of anyone, at any date. However, if it is the victim, it changes the "just minding his own business out for a jog" narrative a bit and could strengthen the perpetrator's story that the victim was acting suspiciously and that they were attempting to act within the law.


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## ThunderHorse (May 10, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> More info on this story:
> 
> Cops review new video of man who appears to be Ahmaud Arbery



Saw the video.  At most we're talking Criminal Trespass on Land.  That is a misdemeanor not only EVERYWHERE.  But also in Georgia.   And if he committed theft or damage under $500 value it is still a misdemeanor. Georgia Code Title 16. Crimes and Offenses § 16-7-21 | FindLaw

In addition to that, having been a stupid kid on runs (in another life) I've walked up to construction sites because I was curious.  My dad worked in "New Home" construction and used to take me on job sites and I'd walk around.


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## Cookie_ (May 10, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> I think that's a bit of an oversimplification of the situation, brother.  Stealing construction tools is not a threat to one's life, in most circumstances.  However, assaulting someone and trying to take their property, especially when that property is a loaded shotgun--if that's what happened--makes a completely different story.
> 
> Additionally, citizen's arrest is a legitimate part of our judicial system... again, if that's what happened.
> 
> The facts here are still very fuzzy. I couldn't tell from the photos that the same person on camera in the construction site was the same person who was gunned down a few minutes later. Not only is the person not identifiable, there is no clear date/time stamp. This image could have been of anyone, at any date. However, if it is the victim, it changes the "just minding his own business out for a jog" narrative a bit and could strengthen the perpetrator's story that the victim was acting suspiciously and that they were attempting to act within the law.





Marauder06 said:


> I think that's a bit of an oversimplification of the situation, brother.  Stealing construction tools is not a threat to one's life, in most circumstances.  However, assaulting someone and trying to take their property, especially when that property is a loaded shotgun--if that's what happened--makes a completely different story.
> 
> Additionally, citizen's arrest is a legitimate part of our judicial system... again, if that's what happened.
> 
> The facts here are still very fuzzy. I couldn't tell from the photos that the same person on camera in the construction site was the same person who was gunned down a few minutes later. Not only is the person not identifiable, there is no clear date/time stamp. This image could have been of anyone, at any date. However, if it is the victim, it changes the "just minding his own business out for a jog" narrative a bit and could strengthen the perpetrator's story that the victim was acting suspiciously and that they were attempting to act within the law.



The defense will argue that Arbery assaulted McMicheal when he attempted to take the shotgun, and the prosecution will argue Arbery was acting within his right to defend himself.
According to a former US attorney quoted in this article



> Under Georgia code, Moore says a citizen can use force if they fear for their life, but they cannot create a confrontation themselves and then claim self defense after harming someone. Especially if they did not witness a crime take place.



We've also touched on in this thread how the citizen's arrest law in Georgia are only applicable for felony crimes, not misdemeanors. Now, I'm not a lawyer, but I'll bet my ass any prosecutor would argue that the elder McMichael,  as a former DA investigator of over 20 years, likely knew that a trespassing charge (or even theft) would not rise to the level of crime acceptable for a citizen's arrest.

I won't be surprised if the son takes a manslaughter plea as opposed to a trial.


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## Marauder06 (May 10, 2020)

Cookie_ said:


> The defense will argue that Arbery assaulted McMicheal when he attempted to take the shotgun, and the prosecution will argue Arbery was acting within his right to defend himself.
> According to a former US attorney quoted in this article
> 
> 
> ...



Well stated.

However, burglary is a felony in Georgia, so a citizen's arrest would be lawful.  What I'm not 100% clear on is the distinction about "immediate knowledge" in the context of a citizen's arrest.

It's not clear to me from the video that the shooter was trying to apprehend the victim, as the action took place in from of the truck and out of view of the camera. He may have simply confronted him.

Without additional evidence, I think the defense can convincingly argue that the defendants had "immediate knowledge" that a felony crime had taken place, that they suspected that the victim was the perpetrator of several other crimes in the area, that the victim was a criminal known to the elder defendant, that when the victim came around the truck, he attacked the younger defendant, who then acted lawfully to defend himself.

In short, without additional evidence, I think these guys walk on murder charges, and can probably plead out even manslaughter to a significantly lesser charge.

This is a messed up situation, and I wish more people would have made better choices.


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## ThunderHorse (May 10, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Well stated.
> 
> However, burglary is a felony in Georgia, so a citizen's arrest would be lawful.  What I'm not 100% clear on is the distinction about "immediate knowledge" in the context of a citizen's arrest.
> 
> ...



They did not witness a burglary.  They didn't even witness the trespass.  They saw a jogger that matched the description, they were inside their own house when they called 9-11.

Where do you come up with the bolded statement? That is not only not a fact supported by anything linked in this thread (ETA, see below)
, but it is very frustrating for me to even read that.  If your position is devil's advocate and from a defense position please state so.  This is seriously angering me.

ETA: 
Georgia man charged with killing Ahmaud Arbery previously investigated him

It took me a bit, but I have a hard time with anyone being able to truly ID someone they investigated seven years earlier at a distance.  So we have the criminal record in the article from the NY Post (there is no other article linked in this thread that provided any evidence to support the above statement), so my anger is significantly less.  But the hill you have to climb to be able to say you recognized a kid from seven years ago now jogging in your neighborhood is now your reason for killing him?  Cmon.

What we have seen from this case is several possible cases of prosecutorial misconduct.


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## Cookie_ (May 10, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> They did not witness a burglary.  They didn't even witness the trespass.  They saw a jogger that matched the description, they were inside their own house when they called 9-11.
> 
> Where do you come up with the bolded statement? That is not only not a fact, but it is very frustrating for me to even read that.  If your position is devil's advocate and from a defense position please state so.  This is seriously angering me.
> 
> ...



I was just about to tag you and see what your opinion was regarding the video and possible burglary. 

To be fair to @Marauder06 I did start the "layman's idea of what a course of action may look like" conversation, so he is bouncing off of me a bit with his bolded statement.


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## PDL (May 10, 2020)

Is there any evidence of a burglary on that day?


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## ThunderHorse (May 10, 2020)

So now let's look at statutes in Georgia:



> *2010 Georgia Code TITLE 17 - CRIMINAL PROCEDURE, CHAPTER 4 - ARREST OF PERSONS, ARTICLE 4 - ARREST BY PRIVATE PERSONS. § 17-4-60 - Grounds for arrest*
> O.C.G.A. 17-4-60 (2010)
> 17-4-60. Grounds for arrest
> 
> ...



So let's say he actually saw Arbery exit the home under construction. As I posted above that is a misdemeanor, therefore no grounds for arrest.

Here are the Stand Your Grown Laws in Georgia:


> *Georgia Code Title 16. Crimes and Offenses § 16-3-21*
> 
> 
> (a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he or she reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to defend himself or herself or a third person against such other's imminent use of unlawful force; however, except as provided in Code Section 16-3-23 , a person is justified in using force which is intended or likely to cause death or great bodily harm only if he or she reasonably believes that such force is necessary to prevent death or great bodily injury to himself or herself or a third person or to prevent the commission of a forcible felony.
> ...





> *Georgia Code Title 16. Crimes and Offenses § 16-3-24*
> 
> (a) A person is justified in threatening or using force against another when and to the extent that he reasonably believes that such threat or force is necessary to prevent or terminate such other's trespass on or other tortious or criminal interference with real property other than a habitation or personal property:
> (1) Lawfully in his possession;
> ...



Wherein does it allow a person to take off in hot pursuit of an individual that is running/jogging down the street and then use deadly force?

Use of deadly force is legal, but the DA would need to take up the case and force the defendant's counsel to prove that in front of a jury.  The statutes allow a private individual to not retreat, but that requires the threat or assumed threat of deadly force.  The only deadly force that was in this is the two defendants rolling out like their dodge pick up is a Toyota Hilux and they're jihadis with a dude standing in the truck bed ready spray and pray.

ETA:


PDL said:


> Is there any evidence of a burglary on that day?



There is evidence of a Trespass, but not of a Burglary. Trespass of land in Georgia, combined with theft or damage under $500 is a misdemeanor.

The video here shows him entering the home under construction: New video in Ahmaud Arbery case offers a view of what happened moments before the deadly shooting

Here is video where it shows him poking around in the house: GBI reviewing additional video in case of Ahmaud Arbery

Again, we're talking what can easily be argued as simple curiosity.


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## Marauder06 (May 10, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> They did not witness a burglary.  They didn't even witness the trespass.  They saw a jogger that matched the description, they were inside their own house when they called 9-11.
> 
> Where do you come up with the bolded statement? That is not only not a fact supported by anything linked in this thread (ETA, see below)
> , but it is very frustrating for me to even read that.  If your position is devil's advocate and from a defense position please state so.  This is seriously angering me.
> ...



I don't really care that this angers you.  That was not my intent, but I don't control how you allow yourself to react to cognitive dissonance.  So be angry or not, it's not going to affect what I post.  

The fact that so many people are letting emotion override reason, especially after we've had case after case after case of people grossly over-reacting to a biased and incomplete version of events only to see a completely different picture emerge once the facts come in, underscores the need for this kind of patience, introspection, and examination.

Everything not explicitly marked as my opinion in the portion of the my statement that you bolded is supported at least in part by the limited facts currently made public in this case. Here, I'll make it easy for you:



> the defendants had "immediate knowledge" that a felony crime had taken place, that they suspected that the victim was the perpetrator of several other crimes in the area, that the victim was a criminal (who was) known to the elder defendant, that when the victim came around the truck, he attacked the younger defendant, who then acted lawfully to defend himself.



Note that I said that this is what a defense attorney might say. At no time did I say that I think this is what happened, or that this is what I think the outcome should be in the trial. And in case you missed my earlier post where I made it very clear that it is too early for me to personally take a position on this, and that I think the arrests were the right call, check out post 23. And if you think I'm unsympathetic to the bottom-line fact that at the end of the day a young man lost his life, I invite you to check out my earlier posts in this thread.

Additionally, you've presented a grotesque straw man with the statement "you recognized a kid from seven years ago now jogging in your neighborhood is now your reason for killing him." To begin with, the elder defendant, the one with the law enforcement background, is not the one who shot the victim; the younger one did. And the younger one only fired after after the victim tried to wrestle the gun away from him.  Your statement is an emotionally-driven non-sequitur.

Look, here's the bottom line:  if discussing this topic is going to "anger" you, and if you're going to contort what little facts there are into a ridiculous straw man, then perhaps it is best for you not to engage me on this topic.  You're only going to end up angrier, and probably embarrassed.  If you want to go back and delete that post and have a rational and dispassionate discussion about it, I'm down for that.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (May 10, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> In short, without additional evidence, I think these guys walk on murder charges, and can probably plead out even manslaughter to a significantly lesser charge.


Based only on what I’ve read so far, that would be a travesty.

These guys saw a “black guy hauling ass” aka “jogging” when the ass-hauler happens to be white.

Instead of calling 911 and reporting that they were FOLLOWING a burglary suspect, they decided to do the “Citizens Arrest” bit.

Please, just please. They were not out on the Western Prairie, they were a police “minutes away” phone call from not murdering a man.

Citizens arrest? 

Please.


----------



## Marauder06 (May 10, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Based only on what I’ve read so far, that would be a travesty.
> 
> These guys saw a “black guy hauling ass” aka “jogging” when the ass-hauler happens to be white.
> 
> ...



Fair enough. But I think that there were multiple 911 calls made, including one that may have happened immediately before the shooting.

I don't quite understand this:

These guys saw a “black guy hauling ass” aka “jogging” when the ass-hauler happens to be white.

Do you mean "not white?"

Also, it appears that one cannot use self-defense if one is the "confronter" in situation.  Given the current evidence, it seems likely that the perpetrators are the confronters, so the whole self defense argument may be a whole lot less likely.


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 10, 2020)

I'm good with what I wrote.  I provided my reasoning.  And taken in context, yes, that is something a defense counsel would attempt to execute in trial.  With that said, based on the evidence that is available, several DAs whom have since recused themselves for a variety of reasons, there was grounds for arrest.  I have also supported my position with the actual statutes from the state of Georgia.

If anything, this case will have huge effects on use of deadly force in a citizens arrest.  In the statute quoted above, it clearly states that someone may execute a citizen's arrest.  It does not state that they can use deadly force.

Even under the "stand your ground" statutes in Georgia, based on the evidence, there was only two persons that had those immediate tools. The defendants who willfully chose to give chase.

Now in evidence the 9-11 calls: 911 calls in Ahmaud Arbery case | 'He's running down the street'

As I've stated above, this amounts to Criminal Trespass. (Home is open, under construction and unoccupied)

Here's the statute for Burglary in Georgia.  So a defense counsel would somehow have to get the jury to agree that the deceased committed burglary.



> *2014 Georgia Code Title 16 - CRIMES AND OFFENSES
> Chapter 7 - DAMAGE TO AND INTRUSION UPON PROPERTY Article 1 - BURGLARY § 16-7-1 - Burglary*
> 
> (a) As used in this Code section, the term:
> ...



Again, the stand your ground laws require the belief that they feared for their lives in order to use deadly force.  Dude was running down the street and they chased after him.

ETA: Here is the transcript from the Vic Reynolds, Director of GBI's press conference.



> I can’t answer what another agency did or didn’t see, but I can tell you that, based on our involvement in this case, considering the fact that we hit the ground running Wednesday morning and within 36 hours we had secured warrants for two individuals for felony murder, I think that speaks volumes for itself and that the probable cause was clear to our agents pretty quickly.


----------



## Marauder06 (May 10, 2020)

I don't think "stand your ground" applies in this case, which is why I didn't mention it earlier.

I think you and I have different interpretations of Georgia's citizen's arrest statutes, which is fine since neither of us are Georgia lawyers. However, the statues specifically imply that lethal force is authorized in the commission of a citizen's arrest, as long as it's not "more force than reasonable."

*



			When making a citizen's arrest, a person may not use more force than is reasonable to make the arrest. Deadly force is limited to self-defense or to instances in which such force is necessary to prevent certain felonies.
		
Click to expand...

*


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 10, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> I don't think "stand your ground" applies in this case, which is why I didn't mention it earlier.
> 
> I think you and I have different interpretations of Georgia's citizen's arrest statutes, which is fine since neither of us are Georgia lawyers. However, the statues specifically imply that lethal force is authorized in the commission of a citizen's arrest, as long as it's not "more force than reasonable."


Link is dead.


----------



## Marauder06 (May 10, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> Link is dead.



Crap.  Thanks for letting me know, I'll check into it.

edit: OK it should work now. In case it doesn't, here's the link again. It's from Georgia Legal Aid:

GeorgiaLegalAid.org | A guide to free and low-cost legal aid, assistance and services in Georgia


----------



## Ooh-Rah (May 10, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> I don't quite understand this:
> These guys saw a “black guy hauling ass” aka “jogging” when the ass-hauler happens to be white


Poor writing on my part.  

Should read:

These guys saw a “black guy hauling ass”. Otherwise known as “jogging” when the ass-hauler happens to be white.

Yes, I am implying that if the dude was not black he would not be dead.


----------



## Marauder06 (May 10, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Poor writing on my part.
> 
> Should read:
> 
> ...



Got it. Thanks for clarifying.


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 10, 2020)

Georgia Attorney General has requested DOJ involvement to look at the investigation of the case:  Georgia attorney general asks Justice Department to investigate handling of Ahmaud Arbery case


----------



## Marauder06 (May 10, 2020)

Here's another perspective:





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=277789989923657


----------



## 0699 (May 11, 2020)

@ThunderHorse

You aren't going to win an arguement with an administrator, so I'd recommend you let it go.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (May 11, 2020)

0699 said:


> @ThunderHorse
> 
> You aren't going to win an arguement with an administrator, so I'd recommend you let it go.


Yeah, I see what you mean.  The way Mara uses his “Admin Privilege” is a bit over the top. In fact I’m shocked there have not been multiple complaints already because of the overbearing way he attempts to shut Thunder down.  

[end sarcasm]




Marauder06 said:


> I don't think "stand your ground" applies in this case, which is why I didn't mention it earlier.





Marauder06 said:


> I think you and I have different interpretations of Georgia's citizen's arrest statutes, which is fine since neither of us are Georgia lawyers.





Marauder06 said:


> Crap. Thanks for letting me know, I'll check into it.





Marauder06 said:


> Got it. Thanks for clarifying.





Marauder06 said:


> Here's another perspective:



@0699 -

Would really interested in what you mean by that comment, because my perspective has been that Thunder and Mara have had a pretty professional conversation; especially since they are in disagreement.


----------



## 0699 (May 11, 2020)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Yeah, I see what you mean.  The way Mara uses his “Admin Privilege” is a bit over the top. In fact I’m shocked there have not been multiple complaints already because of the overbearing way he attempts to shut Thunder down.
> 
> [end sarcasm]
> 
> ...


You know exactly what I mean by it.  You don't need to get all upset.

I'm just trying to help others learn what I had to learn <Mod-Delete> You won't win a disagreement with an administrator or moderator on this site, so don't engage in one.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (May 11, 2020)

0699 said:


> You know exactly what I mean by it.  You don't need to get all upset.
> 
> I'm just trying to help others learn <Mod Delete> what I had to learn. You won't win a disagreement with an administrator or moderator on this site, so don't engage in one.


Look man, have your opinions.  Personally I think you are way off base, but the fight is not with me and if Mara or Thunder want to chime in, that’s on them.

That said -

You are 100% out of line for bringing up the topic that I have since redacted. There is a line of Military Professionalism and OPSEC that is expected by all members here, and you knowingly violated that with your comment.

Not cool.


----------



## Florida173 (May 11, 2020)

Apparently additional footage of him on that property over multiple times.


----------



## SpitfireV (May 11, 2020)

I wonder if he lived nearby and was just being nosey. They don't mention him seeming to have taken anything and he had opportunities to a few times. When I did security work I did some work sites and had people come from nearby to have a look.


----------



## Cookie_ (May 11, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Here's another perspective:
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I'm at work so I don't quite have time to find the video on facebook, but Shapiro had a much more informed, less ramblely take.

As an aside; I tend to not pay much attention to her, mainly because she seems to be trying to become the black version of Milo. 
She ran a super liberal website openly waiting for the death of tea party members and "old conservatives" so progressives could move forward, ran a fair amount of anti-Trump stuff, and even created an "anti-bullying" website to dox people for being misogynistic. She "realized Liberal lies" once she was out of work and became the minority face for TP USA.


----------



## Blizzard (May 11, 2020)

SpitfireV said:


> I wonder if he lived nearby and was just being nosey. They don't mention him seeming to have taken anything and he had opportunities to a few times. When I did security work I did some work sites and had people come from nearby to have a look.


Agreed about nosey neighbors. Not unusual.  That's what I intended to say in my previous post but my autocorrect butchered it.

I don't know anything about that neighborhood and we'll see if there is more footage released but for now I just see a guy that was being curious.  For all we know, maybe he was interested in building/buying a home or just curious about the construction in general.

(before someone else says, let's _not_ go with "curiosity killed the cat"...too easy)


----------



## Ranger Psych (May 11, 2020)

SpitfireV said:


> I wonder if he lived nearby and was just being nosey. They don't mention him seeming to have taken anything and he had opportunities to a few times. When I did security work I did some work sites and had people come from nearby to have a look.



He lived nearby as in "both locations would be within a manpack nuclear fallout radius" not "both locations would be within a 120mm mortar blast radius".

15ish miles away. Dude was where he wasn't supposed to be...  Plot's thicker than just the book cover, or so it seems.


----------



## Florida173 (May 11, 2020)

Blizzard said:


> I don't know anything about that neighborhood and we'll see if there is more footage released but for now I just see a guy that was being curious.  For all we know, maybe he was interested in building/buying a home or just curious about the construction in general.



I'm guessing possible multiple entries to a construction site over a few months could be argued either way, but still would be likely trespassing, absent of any history of theft at the site.


----------



## Blizzard (May 11, 2020)

Ranger Psych said:


> 15ish miles away. Dude was where he wasn't supposed to be...  Plot's thicker than just the book cover, or so it seems.


I don't know about that.  Sounds like it was just 2 miles away.  That's easy running distance.

What we know about community where Ahmaud Arbery was shot: 911 caller reported 'black guy' on property

"Ahmaud Arbery was killed in a small, mostly-white coastal neighborhood about 2 miles away from the home family members say he shared with his mother."

In addition, article says no recent break ins reported.  Local media reported there was one car burglary reported in the nearly 2 month span; not sure how they made this determination if not from a police report:

"The Glynn County Police Department said Thursday that it had no reports involving burglaries or home break-ins in the Satilla Shores neighborhood between Jan. 1 and Feb. 23. However, local media reported that one burglary, an automobile burglary, was reported to police in the Satilla Shores neighborhood during that time."


----------



## Florida173 (May 11, 2020)

Tim Pool has been tracking it pretty objectively since the beginning


----------



## Blizzard (May 11, 2020)

Florida173 said:


> I'm guessing possible multiple entries to a construction site over a few months could be argued either way, but still would be likely trespassing, absent of any history of theft at the site.


The site owner apparently never reported anything, so seemingly wasn't too serious...he had video.  Still, don't see anything that justifies losing a life.


----------



## Florida173 (May 11, 2020)

Blizzard said:


> The site owner apparently never reported anything, so seemingly wasn't too serious...he had video.  Still, don't see anything that justifies losing a life.



Two days ago we all thought he was just out for a jog. Now there is video of him trespassing on multiple occasions. Nothing will likely come out that will justify him losing his life on the road like that, but I am going to call it likely determined to be involuntary manslaughter


----------



## Cookie_ (May 11, 2020)

Article for where the owner of the home under construction states he never had any thefts or issues with that property here.

The only burglary reported was a 9mm pistol out of an unlocked truck that was owned by one of the McMichaels.

The reason for thinking he was armed?
He'd "put his hands down his pants a night prior" according to the original police report (attached).

We can discuss all day that the shooting isn't racist because the McMichaels were not wearing white hoods or calling him slurs; but it's intellectually dishonest to say Arbery being black didnt play a role in him being perceived as a criminal threat.


----------



## Cookie_ (May 11, 2020)

Here's that Shapiro video I mentioned.


----------



## Florida173 (May 11, 2020)

Here's some footage of him walking through the neighborhood and entering the house, then after maybe being confronted from the neighbor across the street, running out of the house.
GBI reviewing additional video footage in Ahmaud Arbery case


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 11, 2020)

Florida173 said:


> Here's some footage of him walking through the neighborhood and entering the house, then after maybe being confronted from the neighbor across the street, running out of the house.
> GBI reviewing additional video footage in Ahmaud Arbery case


See post #39


----------



## PDL (May 11, 2020)

Does the construction site video show a felony? Did the McMichaels witness a potential felony on the construction site?  
That would be the justification for them to affect an arrest.  They do not have powers to arrest on suspicion or for investigation - those are police powers.  And of course the elder McMichael would understand that as an ex cop.


----------



## Marauder06 (May 11, 2020)

0699 said:


> @ThunderHorse
> 
> *You aren't going to win an arguement with an administrator*, so I'd recommend you let it go.





0699 said:


> You know exactly what I mean by it.  You don't need to get all upset.
> 
> I'm just trying to help others learn what I had to learn <Mod-Delete> *You won't win a disagreement with an administrator or moderator* on this site, so don't engage in one.




I'm confused. If you believe that to be the case, then why are you doing it? That's rhetorical, don't bother answering.

Here's the bottom line, so I'm going to put it up front: a discussion about how the site staff is repressing you--or whatever--is not germane to this thread, and it's also highly unprofessional. You could have handled this with a PM to Thunder, if you really wanted to warn him; to me, if you really thought I was out of line; or to the site owner if you genuinely think that the staff is suppressing legitimate discussion on the site. But you didn't do any of those things. That to me indicates that you just want to cause problems, not be part of the solution.

So here is where we are now: if you want to continue this particular line of discussion, you can hit me up on PM. Heck, you can hit up the whole staff if you want. But if you post anything in this thread that isn't directly about the Ahmaud Arbery case, I'm going to delete it and ban you from this thread. I'm not going to allow another productive discussion about an important subject get derailed by emotion and unrelated petty grievances.

A few points of clarification:

-Reference your first post, I'm not an admin and haven't been for years.

-With regard to your second post, I think you are referring to an incident that involved you literally saying "Fuck you" publicly to an admin, who, by the way, was not me. Notwithstanding any of the other nuances of that discussion, there's no way that kind of behavior doesn't catch at least a temp ban.

-The above-mentioned incident occurred something like four years ago. I think it's time to let it go, bro.

-The admin with whom you had that exchange is permanently banned from the site, and you're still here. I'd say that's the clearest possible evidence that your hypothesis about arguing with the staff is erroneous.  

-I don't recall "winning" or "losing" any arguments with you in the past, and up to this point don't remember ever having an issue with you, so I don't really get where this is coming from and why you're directing it at me.

-From a personal standpoint, I'm not in this to "win arguments."  We all win if learning occurs.  If people feel like they "lose" in discussions with me, it's because they lost on the merits, not because of my position as a staff member.

I suspect that you lashing out like this stems more from the points I'm raising in this thread than the frustration you experienced four years ago, from a member of the staff who has been banned for at least half that time. If my posts make you angry because they represent an opinion different than yours, so be it. But don't try to stir up trouble by attacking the staff.

This discussion is over unless you--or any other members who might feel similarly--want to take it to PM.


----------



## SpitfireV (May 11, 2020)

Ranger Psych said:


> He lived nearby as in "both locations would be within a manpack nuclear fallout radius" not "both locations would be within a 120mm mortar blast radius".
> 
> 15ish miles away. Dude was where he wasn't supposed to be...  Plot's thicker than just the book cover, or so it seems.



Yeah it's all weird.


----------



## Marauder06 (May 11, 2020)

Florida173 said:


> Tim Pool has been tracking it pretty objectively since the beginning



Interesting.  This is the first I've heard about the distance between where he lived, and this neighborhood.  Is there any word on how he was getting back and forth from a 20-mile round trip?  Maybe he worked or studied nearby or something?


----------



## AWP (May 11, 2020)

Chasing someone down over a minor violation (perceived or not) is the equivilent of getting out of your car during a road rage altercation. It will end in violence and someone going to jail or worse as in this case. No one wins and in the end the lawsuits and potential jail time won't feed your ego.


----------



## Cookie_ (May 11, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Interesting.  This is the first I've heard about the distance between where he lived, and this neighborhood.  Is there any word on how he was getting back and forth from a 20-mile round trip?  Maybe he worked or studied nearby or something?



I haven't seen any info about where he actually lived from any source other than your Tim Pool/Candace Owens types, and they don't seem to be sharing anything offical.

@Blizzard shared an article where family members stated he was living with his mother in a home roughly two miles away.

Maybe he had a previous address and recently moved back with his mom? Might explain why there's a disconnect about where he lived.


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 11, 2020)

Supposedly his mother lived two miles away or some such.  

Here's a source, but probably want to find another: What We Know About the Killing of Ahmaud Arbery


----------



## Blizzard (May 11, 2020)

Marauder06 said:


> Interesting.  This is the first I've heard about the distance between where he lived, and this neighborhood.  Is there any word on how he was getting back and forth from a 20-mile round trip?  Maybe he worked or studied nearby or something?


I don't know who the YT guy is in the video @Florida173 posted but he's flat wrong with a number of facts.

Not sure where the 10+ mile idea comes from, but based on a 5 min. Google search of Arbery's mothers address (he lived with her) and the address on the police report (I won't post the addresses here but they're publicly available with a little searching) the distance stated in the USA Today article I posted earlier is correct.  Arbery lived in the same town, Brunswick, approx. 2 miles from where the shooting occurred.

Using MapMyRun, I created a route that got me there in 1.54 miles, could possibly even be less depending on the amount of traffic on nearby roads.


----------



## Florida173 (May 12, 2020)

Blizzard said:


> I don't know who the YT guy is in the video @Florida173 posted but he's flat wrong with a number of facts.
> 
> Not sure where the 10+ mile idea comes from, but based on a 5 min. Google search of Arbery's mothers address (he lived with her) and the address on the police report (I won't post the addresses here but they're publicly available with a little searching) the distance stated in the USA Today article I posted earlier is correct.  Arbery lived in the same town, Brunswick, approx. 2 miles from where the shooting occurred.
> 
> Using MapMyRun, I created a route that got me there in 1.54 miles, could possibly even be less depending on the amount of traffic on nearby roads.



If you don't know who Tim Pool is, maybe check his interviews with Joe Rogan. Former Vice journalist and famous for covering some of the occupy wall street stuff back in the day. Red pilled a bit on the far left progressive stuff, but I would consider him pretty center-left. 

All the distance stuff is just to push against the original narrative that he was just out for a jog. I'm definitely on the side that he probably wasn't based on wearing loose cargo shorts, walking up to the construction site, and then sprinting away after he was originally confronted.


----------



## Blizzard (May 12, 2020)

Florida173 said:


> If you don't know who Tim Pool is, maybe check his interviews with Joe Rogan. Former Vice journalist and famous for covering some of the occupy wall street stuff back in the day. Red pilled a bit on the far left progressive stuff, but I would consider him pretty center-left.


No dig on you but if that's his actual job, the dude is a real shitty fucking reporter because, like I said, it took me maybe 5 min to actually confirm the fact that Arbery lived within 2 miles of the shooting site.


----------



## Blizzard (May 12, 2020)

Florida173 said:


> All the distance stuff is just to push against the original narrative that he was just out for a jog. I'm definitely on the side that he probably wasn't based on wearing loose cargo shorts, walking up to the construction site, and then sprinting away after he was originally confronted.


I'm not sure what the guy was doing.  It will be interesting to see what evidence and arguments are presented.

Here's a map of the general area, again, if you want to know to specifics, you can research them but if you zoom out a little, I'll say Arbery's mom's house is near the Dairy Queen:
Google Maps

Several things worth noting:
1.  Arbery was only wearing was a t-shirt, shorts, and tennis shoes; attire consistent with running/jogging
2.  It's apparent he got to the neighborhood on foot; there are no reports of him driving anywhere, parking, then going for a run
3.  For the two months prior to the shooting, the only reported theft was from a car, interestingly enough, owned by McMichael; no other break ins, etc.
4.  On the neighbors surveillance video the day of the shooting, he approaches the construction site from the North, which makes sense if coming from his mom's house
5.  On the neighbors surveillance video the day of the shooting, he stops briefly and stands in the middle of the front yard before casually entering the site; why?
6.  On the neighbors surveillance video the day of the shooting, when he leaves the construction site, he continues South as though continuing on his initial route; he's not running back towards home - on the map above, you'll see the neighborhood is essentially a loop
7.  On the construction site videos (he seems to have entered a few times over the course of a few months), he only looks around a little.  He doesn't appear to fully enter rooms; he's just checking it out.  He doesn't even touch anything - he's never there long, just a few minutes


----------



## AWP (May 12, 2020)

I guess I'm the only here who has gone running in cargo shorts or seen others run in cargo shorts?


----------



## Blizzard (May 12, 2020)

^ One more thing

8.  Keep in mind that construction site surveillance video that was released contains only a few seconds of footage.  Arbrey was on site for at least a few minutes on the day of the shooting.  Unknown how long he as on site on other occasions.  So, video needs to be taken with a grain of salt.


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 12, 2020)

Florida173 said:


> If you don't know who Tim Pool is, maybe check his interviews with Joe Rogan. Former Vice journalist and famous for covering some of the occupy wall street stuff back in the day. Red pilled a bit on the far left progressive stuff, but I would consider him pretty center-left.
> 
> All the distance stuff is just to push against the original narrative that he was just out for a jog. I'm definitely on the side that he probably wasn't based on wearing loose cargo shorts, walking up to the construction site, and then sprinting away after he was originally confronted.



So what am I supposed to do about the dudes in the gym squatting in wranglers and work boots?


----------



## AWP (May 12, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> So what am I supposed to do about the dudes in the gym squatting in wranglers and work boots?


----------



## Blizzard (May 12, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> So what am I supposed to do about the dudes in the gym squatting in wranglers and work boots?


Or the women in high heels and crop tops....oh wait, nevermind...


----------



## Salt USMC (May 12, 2020)

You’ll never shame me for my Lululemon running tights!!


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 12, 2020)

Blizzard said:


> Or the women in high heels and crop tops....oh wait, nevermind...


You joke, but I see those chicks practicing their posing in group classes room.


----------



## Blizzard (May 12, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> You joke, but I see those chicks practicing their posing in group classes room.


That was no joke. 

There was a lady like this at a gym I went to who'd show up and slow ride the stationary bike...I kid you not.  Frickin' hilarious.


----------



## Totentanz (May 12, 2020)

Salt USMC said:


> You’ll never shame me for my Lululemon running tights!!


_
... he rolled his eyes, and sighed, "Marines..." as he ensured he was properly attired in Ranger panties and jump boots for his run._


----------



## Ranger Psych (May 12, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> So what am I supposed to do about the dudes in the gym squatting in wranglers and work boots?



Well, offers of oil massages afterwards hasn't worked for you yet, try a different dating approach?


----------



## Cookie_ (May 12, 2020)

While we might have disagreements about whether they had a legal right to follow him/if video show's Arbery committing a crime, at least nobody on here has this mindset. 
Gotta go to facebook and twitter for that.


----------



## Rabid Badger (May 16, 2020)

Cookie_ said:


> We can discuss all day that the shooting isn't racist because the McMichaels were not wearing white hoods or calling him slurs; but it's *intellectually dishonest to say Arbery being black didnt play a role in him being perceived as a criminal threat*.



I keep going back to this quote. I think BETTER WORDING MAY BE IN STORE HERE. Maybe *IN MY HONEST OPINION* it's "*intellectually dishonest*" instead of calling, _basically, _anyone who posts after you and doesn't agree with you a moron and a racist. Follow me? 

I don't know you and you don't know me. My wife's callsign is "Negra". If your'e on my property unnanounced, uninvited and illegally, I am going to put you on your face (until the police arrive) whether you are black, brown, blue, or green. PUNTO. Be that property / house / building under construction or after having broken into my home and running the down the road and I have a variety of calibers to choose from. My wife, the Colonel,  will have a gun in one hand and the phone in the other.

Your last meme wasn't funny, IMHO.


----------



## DZ (May 16, 2020)

Cookie_ said:


> Article for where the owner of the home under construction states he never had any thefts or issues with that property here.
> 
> The only burglary reported was a 9mm pistol out of an unlocked truck that was owned by one of the McMichaels.
> 
> ...



I'd love to know why "it's intellectually dishonest to say Arbery being black didnt play a role in him being perceived as a criminal threat." What makes it intellectually dishonest specifically? I think people who are saying this is racism are suffering from a victim mentality.

What I think this is, is a tragedy, and two guys likely deserve to be behind bars, but let's stop acting like anytime a white guy kills a black guy it's because of racism.


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## Cookie_ (May 16, 2020)

Rabid Badger said:


> I keep going back to this quote. I think BETTER WORDING MAY BE IN STORE HERE. Maybe *IN MY HONEST OPINION* it's "*intellectually dishonest*" instead of calling, _basically, _anyone who posts after you and doesn't agree with you a moron and a racist. Follow me?
> 
> I don't know you and you don't know me. My wife's callsign is "Negra". If your'e on my property unnanounced, uninvited and illegally, I am going to put you on your face (until the police arrive) whether you are black, brown, blue, or green. PUNTO. Be that property / house / building under construction or after having broken into my home and running the down the road and I have a variety of calibers to choose from. My wife, the Colonel,  will have a gun in one hand and the phone in the other.
> 
> Your last meme wasn't funny, IMHO.



My point is that even disregarding actual racist intent, black people are seen as Larger/more threatening, Older/more likely to be guilty, and more violent(older study) than other races.

Does this mean the shooting was done by two racist men? No. 

Am I saying that it likely played a factor in what happened? Absolutely.

So to be clearer: 

I an of the firm opinion that a likely factor of Arbery being perceived as a threat was due to him being a black man. 

That does not turn this into a race-based shooting, merely states that race plays a greater than zero role in this.

I don't think people who disagree with me are racist or stupid; I do think that they may be uninformed or just opposed to/disagreeing with the basis of the studies.

If it's being uninformed; cool, here's some studies and we can dive into it.

If its opposed/disagreeing; cool, we wont see eye to eye but I'm not here to insult you or shit on your opinions.


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## AWP (May 16, 2020)

Cookie_ said:


> Does this mean the shooting was done by two racist men? No.
> 
> Am I saying that it likely played a factor in what happened? Absolutely.
> 
> ...



I don't follow. If race played a factor in the shooting then how are the guys not racist and how is this not race-based?


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## Florida173 (May 17, 2020)

Now that it's coming out that the site owner was told to contact the father/son duo when suspicious activity happens again, it should shake some serious things up for the police. What kind of police force specifically tells a citizen to contact someone else to do their vigilantism? Absolutely insane.


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## Marauder06 (May 17, 2020)

Florida173 said:


> Now that it's coming out that the site owner was told to contact the father/son duo when suspicious activity happens again, it should shake some serious things up for the police. What kind of police force specifically tells a citizen to contact someone else to do their vigilantism? Absolutely insane.



My understanding of Warren v. DC makes it pretty clear that we are the ones who are primarily responsible for our own safety and security.  The police have no duty to protect. You can see it in Warren, and in the case of the Florida cop who was reinstated--with back pay--after getting fired for not intervening in the Parkland school shooting. If the people--any people--can't count on the police, they'll either taken matters into their own hands, or turn to someone who will.

The above is a general observation but may have some bearing in this situation as well.


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## Rabid Badger (May 17, 2020)

@Cookie_  You made all my points...and....then....counterpoints...   -
especially after attempting to turn this thread into a racist "gotcha" (especially after your last meme) I'm still trying to figure out what you said -  and then didn't say.  

*"I do think that they may be uninformed or just opposed to/disagreeing with the basis of the studies. "* Good One. I think there's an insult buried in there somewhere. Stay in school.

I'm not shitting on your opinion. I'm shitting on your ability to express your opinion concisely. *IMHO*


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (May 17, 2020)

I think the guy was a dumb-ass, didn't look like he was stealing, but also too dumb to realize you don't enter someone else's property unannounced, un-invited.  This all could have been settled a lot easier if Ol' Cletus actually had some decent training and butt stroked this kid when he charged at him, rather than blow his guts out.

I'm nobody, but I see this as a clear manslaughter case with all the evidence needed for a conviction.


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (May 17, 2020)

Florida173 said:


> Tim Pool has been tracking it pretty objectively since the beginning



Having taken a longer look at the video, there is a boat in there, and he spends minutes walking around checking everything out. Could have been trying to figure out how to get that thing out of there?


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## ThunderHorse (May 17, 2020)

Not sure how the castle doctrine is being brought up since the deceased wasn't on the accused's property.


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## SaintKP (May 17, 2020)

Here's the skinny of it, you could argue that race played a factor in the altercation starting the way it did. 

However you have two guys that don't have the same firearms training as LEO or Mil, they don't know how to handle a high intensity situation, and their decision making most likely isn't up to snuff. If the guy was white and went for the gun we would still be talking about murder charges and how they would be stupid in that scenario as well.

You have two guys who think they'd play hero but instead were way out of their depth. I don't believe race played a motive in his death more so that it started the altercation the way it did.


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## Cookie_ (May 17, 2020)

Rabid Badger said:


> @Cookie_  You made all my points...and....then....counterpoints...   -
> especially after attempting to turn this thread into a racist "gotcha" (especially after your last meme) I'm still trying to figure out what you said -  and then didn't say.
> 
> *"I do think that they may be uninformed or just opposed to/disagreeing with the basis of the studies. "* Good One. I think there's an insult buried in there somewhere. Stay in school.
> ...



That meme wasn't supposed to be a "gotcha" type thing.
I was commenting about the fact that I've literally seen people on larger social media sites posting things like "he got what he deserved for being a thug". That was the point of the meme.


Theres no insult in there.

We as humans cannot know everything. We will always have topics in which we are uninformed, or with which we disagree with. If you feel me saying that is insulting, nothing I can say is going to change that, just a difference of opinions then.
No hard feelings intended boss; hell, you ever swing through Colorado I'll buy you a beer.



AWP said:


> I don't follow. If race played a factor in the shooting then how are the guys not racist and how is this not race-based?



That comes down to how people view the topics of inherent/institutionalized racism as it plays on an individual level, "casual racism", and then the concept of unconscious bias.

Unconcious bias is pretty easy to understand. That study I shared regarding black men being perceived as more threatening was conducted by asking people to look at a color inverted Male body (minus head), and judge sized after giving a primer to state whether that person was black or white. When primed the image was black, participants saw the body as larger.

Casual racism(where I'd stick race based FYI) is also what most of us probably remember as just being racial stereotyping. "Most minorities are criminals"/"black men are more violent", as two easily seen examples.

We have our out-and-out racists, which is your hatred for others/slurs/targeted crimes live.

The inherent/institutionalized racism is the belief that society and its systems itself are racist; some go further and beleive that individuals, who use these systems also racist. IE, the McMicheals are racist because they used the system (which backs whites) to pursue Arbery.

I'm not an inherent racism at individual level guy, so I wont say the shooting was in and of itself racist.

I won't currently say the shooting is race based, because we at least have enough information to know Arbery was there multiple times. Granted, they also only assumed he was armed because he had put his hand in his pants a previous night; perhaps stereotyping, but that's how muddy these discussions get.

ETA: Getting into any more race stuff is likely to get this thread off track, so if anyone wants to continue this line of discussion more we should either make a new thread or take it to DMs.


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## Cookie_ (May 17, 2020)

Florida173 said:


> Now that it's coming out that the site owner was told to contact the father/son duo when suspicious activity happens again, it should shake some serious things up for the police. *What kind of police force specifically tells a citizen to contact someone else to do their vigilantism?* Absolutely insane.



I'd bet dollars to doughnuts that it was because the father was a retired cop.


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## SaintKP (May 17, 2020)

Florida173 said:


> Now that it's coming out that the site owner was told to contact the father/son duo when suspicious activity happens again, it should shake some serious things up for the police. What kind of police force specifically tells a citizen to contact someone else to do their vigilantism? Absolutely insane.




Anecdotally when I was a kid visiting my grandfather in _rural _Missouri he'd once in a blue moon get calls from dispatch for the department he used to work at for low level stuff like wellness checks, etc. until proper LE units could arrive.

Granted he had been on the force for 40 years and everyone in the area knew him, but often times you'd have to wait almost 30 minutes for police to show up.


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## ThunderHorse (May 18, 2020)

Some important things coming up.  Apparently Greg McMichael delivered the video evidence to the radio station to have it released so the public would see them as trying to make a citizen's arrest and not as racists.  Suspect in shooting death of Ahmaud Arbery helped release video of incident, attorney says

Also, the attorney for the homeowner says the homeowner believes Arbery was using the home as a water source.  

Homeowner's lawyer: Ahmaud Arbery may have entered property for water breaks before fatal shooting


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## Rabid Badger (May 21, 2020)

blah....blah...""""I'm not an inherent racism at individual level guy, so I wont say the shooting was in and of itself racist. (you already did)

I won't currently say the shooting is race based ......blah...blah..."""


You can't backtrack now. With your meme and throughout several posts in this thread you stated you thought that it was race related. Remember "*Intellectually dishonest*"? Let me remind you.  Remember concise?

Those two hillbillies made the mistake of getting out of the truck and not waiting for the police. Result: Dead black kid. *RIP Ahmad, Sincerely*. Personally, I don't find hate crime, I don't find racism, I find incredible, massive, *spur of the moment hillbilly stupidity*.

Scenario: Two black men notice a white trespasser on a private construction site. They call 911 and follow the trespasser (in their truck ~ stay in their truck) after the call they follow down the road and wait for the LEO(s) to arrive. LEO(s) arrive and take digits of trespasser. LEO's arrest white trespasser and move out. Racist> not at all.

Different scenario? IMHO Not much except the black men stayed in their truck, no physical confrontation and these are the confrontations you NEVER hear about.


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## Cookie_ (May 21, 2020)

Rabid Badger said:


> blah....blah...""""I'm not an inherent racism at individual level guy, so I wont say the shooting was in and of itself racist. (you already did)
> 
> I won't currently say the shooting is race based ......blah...blah..."""
> 
> ...



Cool man, we disagree. You seem to think I'm calling you and others with your views on this situation racists personally, so this discussion is DOA.



> Scenario: Two black men notice a white trespasser on a private construction site. They call 911 and follow the trespasser (in their truck ~ stay in their truck) after the call they follow down the road and wait for the LEO(s) to arrive. LEO(s) arrive and take digits of trespasser. LEO's arrest white trespasser and move out. Racist> not at all.
> 
> Different scenario? IMHO Not much except the black men stayed in their truck, no physical confrontation and *these are the confrontations you NEVER hear about.*



Oh, we're just making up scenarios now to prove how it could totally happen the exact same way to a white dude? Super cool.


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## AWP (May 21, 2020)

"Damn, do I lock this thread for 24 hours, post a message asking everyone to chill, PM some people, let the rest of the staff sort it out so I don't appear to biased since I'm participating in the discussion... Man, they never covered this in Mod School, so we get to make a judgement call that could piss off people, but this thread really feels like it is about to run off the rails. I should probably clean the kitchen and iron clothes for work. What's the worst that could happen here? Bah, I'm sure everyone will read the entire thread before responding. No one ever makes a knee jerk reply without building situational awareness on the thread."


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## SaintKP (May 21, 2020)

AWP said:


> "Damn, do I lock this thread for 24 hours, post a message asking everyone to chill, PM some people, let the rest of the staff sort it out so I don't appear to biased since I'm participating in the discussion... Man, they never covered this in Mod School, so we get to make a judgement call that could piss off people, but this thread really feels like it is about to run off the rails. I should probably clean the kitchen and iron clothes for work. What's the worst that could happen here? Bah, I'm sure everyone will read the entire thread before responding. No one ever makes a knee jerk reply without building situational awareness on the thread."



What did he mean by this 🤔


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## Marauder06 (May 21, 2020)

SaintKP said:


> What did he mean by this 🤔


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 21, 2020)

Mehhhh, dude probably walks, maybe a short stint for manslaughter. 

Yes these guys were wrong, yes they provoked the situation and introduced lethal force.

But attacking a guy with a shotgun was a deadly and stupid decisions. Play stupid games and you win the stupid prizes...


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## BloodStripe (May 21, 2020)

Just imagine for one second you are Ahmad or someone very similar to him. Has anyone on this board ever been in a situation with your dark green friend and a bunch of white trash dudes show up wanting to cause a scene? I have and thankfully the police showed up because some witness called 911. 

Some humility and empathy go a long way in life when looking through a lense at how you think you would react during a situation.


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## RustyShackleford (May 21, 2020)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Yes these guys were wrong, yes they provoked the situation and introduced lethal force.



I’d go as far as to say they created the situation, and you don’t get to do that. Not as a citizen and not as LE. I don’t care about what happened on video or 5 minutes before. Those clowns created the situation that led to the murder.


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## AWP (May 22, 2020)

And the cameraman is taking charges.

Ahmaud Arbery case: Georgia man who recorded deadly shooting arrested on charges including felony murder



> William "Roddie" Bryan Jr., the man who recorded the deadly February shooting of Georgia jogger Ahmaud Arbery, has been arrested on charges of felony murder and criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment, the Georgia Bureau of Investigation [GBI] announced Thursday night.


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## Kaldak (May 22, 2020)

The videos I've seen show nothing definite. But, why would you follow guys following a guy for....what?


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## Florida173 (May 22, 2020)

Kaldak said:


> The videos I've seen show nothing definite. But, why would you follow guys following a guy for....what?



Well, I think the better question would be why on earth would you record it?

Wasn't he the neighbor that called mcmichaels?


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## Kaldak (May 22, 2020)

That is what I asked.


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## AWP (May 22, 2020)

This case has so much stupid that if you told me Joe Exotic hired any one of them to kill Gov. Whitmer using a blue-ringed octopus...I wouldn't bat an eye. "Yup, makes sense. Story checks out."


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## BloodStripe (May 22, 2020)

The cameraman just learned a tough lesson.


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## BloodStripe (May 22, 2020)

Florida173 said:


> Well, I think the better question would be why on earth would you record it?
> 
> Wasn't he the neighbor that called mcmichaels?



No. From the article he saw a person running he didnt know being chased by a truck he did. So he followed to get a picture of Arbery.


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## Rabid Badger (May 23, 2020)

My thought on the cameraman *AND*: *IMHO* -  If you charge this guy with murder, you have to charge every cameraman from now on that videotapes a _*crime*_ that he had nothing to do with _and_ had no clue was going to happen (picture Minority Report). Thoughts? 

Back on the rails without racist intonation.


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## ThunderHorse (May 23, 2020)

Here's an article discussing surveillance footage of the home that was under construction.  The footage showed multiple people trespassing over time.

Surveillance videos show multiple people had trespassed at the home Ahmaud Arbery visited. He was the only one killed


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## Ooh-Rah (May 23, 2020)

Rabid Badger said:


> My thought on the cameraman *AND*: *IMHO* -  If you charge this guy with murder, you have to charge every cameraman from now on that videotapes a _*crime*_ that he had nothing to do with _and_ had no clue was going to happen (picture Minority Report). Thoughts?
> 
> Back on the rails without racist intonation.


I have not followed the story “super” close, but I thought I had read that the “cameraman” had used his vehicle to help block in the victim. If that is the case, that seems like substantially more than being just a “witness”.


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## Cookie_ (May 23, 2020)

Rabid Badger said:


> My thought on the cameraman *AND*: *IMHO* -  If you charge this guy with murder, you have to charge every cameraman from now on that videotapes a _*crime*_ that he had nothing to do with _and_ had no clue was going to happen (picture Minority Report). Thoughts?
> 
> Back on the rails without racist intonation.



According to the police report( I shared it two/three pages back) he also was in his truck trying to block in Arbery.



> " R oddy "attempted to block him which was unsuccessful.



I don't see how that rises to the level of murder; unless maybe Georgia is one of those states where it doesn't matter who pulled the trigger, everyone involved in the crime gets charged with it.

Even still, this particular charge seems weird.

@ETA: Georgia is one of those states. From the article @ThunderHorse Shared:



> A person can be charged with felony murder in Georgia if he or she is alleged to have contributed to another's death, even unintentionally, while committing another felony. Bryan also faces a charge of criminal attempt to commit false imprisonment.


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## Rabid Badger (May 23, 2020)

Watch this full video link. (Ahmaud attempted "tazing")

Here's a little more info from Ahmaud Arbery's history that will mosdef be brought up in court. \/ \/ \/

Man who recorded the Ahmaud Arbery shooting has been receiving threats, attorney says

""""The Brunswick News has reported Arbery was indicted for allegedly bringing a gun to a 2013 high school basketball game when he was 19. Family attorney Lee Merritt has acknowledged Arbery's 2018 arrest on shoplifting charges. But any reference to "alleged conduct from high school or shoplifting is absurd and has nothing to do with his murder."""" 

Do NOT infer that I'm saying Ahmaud Arbery deserved what he got as he did not deserve to die, but if his murderer's history will be brought up in court, so will Ahmauds, unfortunately. That's the world we live in with these bottom feeding lawyers.

Ahmaud was an angry black kid who took life head on and met some hillbilly's with guns. They shouldn't get away with murder. 

My best friend my freshman year in high school was a big black kid just like Ahmaud. He would score 30 points a basketball game while we poor little white guys scored 6 ---> LOL. Picture Michael J. 1978. He was dating a white college freshman girl in college. The KKK killed him. Hung him by his own belt, nailed on a limb above a picnic table with a chair on the table kicked over to make it look like suicide. He wasn't angry. He was a good kid. KKK flyers passed out at the high school the next day. Small town Oklahoma where shit like this was never heard of.

My heart goes out to the Arbery family.


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## TSUalum05 (Jun 6, 2020)

One was accused of using racial epithets in the past and against Arberry after the shooting. Arberry was stuck by a truck before killed as reported by CNN from testimony/interviews of Police Investigators during probable cause court.

www.cnn.com/2020/06/ 04/us/mcmichaels-hea ring-ahmaud-arbery/i ndex.html

These two hunted this young man, and there could potentially be a cover up by law enforcement and the DA.

Excerpts from fox news article: Man accused of killing Ahmaud Arbery used racial expletives after shooting him, court hears

"The Georgia man who allegedly shot Ahmaud Arbery while he was he was jogging on a residential street called him a "f---ing n----r" as he stood over the 25-year-old's lifeless body, according to testimony given Thursday in a Gynn Country courtroom."

"Dial confirmed there is additional video of Arbery trying to leave but that Bryan tried to block Arbery multiple times."

"William Bryan, the man who shot the infamous viral video of Arbery's death, told investigators that ex-cop Gregory McMichael, 64, and his son, Travis McMichael, 34, chased Arbery with their truck and blocked his exit before opening fire and killing the young black man."

"Arbery, an unarmed 25-year-old black man studying to be an electrician, was shot and killed in late February near the coastal city of Brunswick. Charges, however, were not filed against any of the men accused in his shooting death until May, when the Georgia Bureau of Investigation was called in to investigate Arbery's death. It was then learned that local law enforcement and district attorneys allegedly slow-walked the case to allegedly protect one of their own."

"Since then, a harsh light has been cast on the Glynn County Police Department. A deeper dive into the beleaguered police department by Fox News uncovered scandals and claims of corruption for years, including allegations that detectives tampered with evidence, lied to prosecutors and retaliated against whistleblowers."


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## ThunderHorse (Jun 6, 2020)

I was in a different discussion group where I posted the link to this and some dickhead said literally this:



> "How is the accused calling the decedent a [redacted] racist?"
> "Calling someone an N-word doesn't make them a racist"
> "Based on the evidence I would exonerate them right now"



I couldn't even have a dialogue with that person if he can't understand how using racial epithets illustrates intent, state of mind, and motive.  I blocked him and won't be engaging with that person again. Also he literally put *[redacted]* in the sentence instead of the known abbreviations.


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## AWP (Jun 7, 2020)

ThunderHorse said:


> I was in a different discussion group where I posted the link to this and some dickhead said literally this:
> 
> 
> 
> I couldn't even have a dialogue with that person if he can't understand how using racial epithets illustrates intent, state of mind, and motive.  I blocked him and won't be engaging with that person again. Also he literally put *[redacted]* in the sentence instead of the known abbreviations.



Some people you just can't help.


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## Cookie_ (Jun 24, 2020)

All three men have been indicted by the grand jury.

Ahmaud Arbery killing: 3 Georgia men indicted by grand jury on murder charges


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 18, 2020)

More bodycam footage is now out:

'If I coulda gotten a shot at the guy, I would've shot him myself': Murder defendant to police following Ahmaud Arbery killing


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