# Buying my first AR - take a look?  (M&P 15 Sport)



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 11, 2014)

I've enough handguns to supply the block so figured it time I add a rifle to the mix.

This will be my first AR - likely not my last though.  

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...87653_757785_757784_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

*What I am looking for:*
-  Something to plink with at the range
-  Something to hunt the occasional squirrel or rabbit with 
-  Something to protect the home-front with - both inside and out
-  Add a tactical flash light

*What I am not expecting from this AR*
-  Taking long range shots (500 yard) shots 
-  Fighting off either the Zombie Apocalypse or a pickup truck of ISIS fighters - I figure if it comes to that, I'm likely fucked anyway

Some of my buddies, who do have AR's, but in my opinion have them set up more for Mall Ninja patrol than real life scenarios, will not let go of the fact that this weapon does not have a dust cover or a forward assist option.  

I'm guessing those of you who have pulled a trigger in the desert may have a different opinion on dust cover, I just don't know how necessary or practical it is here in Minnesota.  Same thing with the forward assist, nice to have, sure.  But necessary?

Give me your thoughts/opinions?


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## Brill (Oct 11, 2014)

You can't beat a good ol' fashioned Ruger 10/22 for plinking.  If an AR design is a must, have you looked at:

http://www.atlantictactical.com/pro...ical-rifle-commercial/smith-and-wesson-rifles

For home defense, go with a shotgun (Benelli auto).


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## fox1371 (Oct 11, 2014)

Is that your price cap?  You may not want to do more with it right now...but down the road you may want something more.  It might make more sense to spending the extra $100-$300 on a rifle with a little more to it.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 11, 2014)

It's not my cap. I can afford to spend more , just trying not to buy a SCAR if I don't have to.

Truth be told, I have not fired a rifle since qual in 1993. I have no clue about today's AR's. Next week I've been given the opportunity to attend an AR shoot with a friend. I'll get the opportunity to handle/fire dozens of different setups. I'm not buying "Jack" til after that.


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## fox1371 (Oct 11, 2014)

Definitely test run some different AR's and find out what setup you like.  Check out www.sionicsweaponsystems.com as well.  You won't go wrong with one of those rifles.  The individual who designed them is a smart fella, and the QC on the rifles is very detailed.  The tolerances will be much tighter, and they don't put in shit internals/trigger groups.  Their base models utilize ALG triggers.  ALG is a trigger manufacturing company that was founded by William Geissele's wife.  I run an ALG trigger in my AR and I love it.  You'll notice a significant increase in accuracy with a simple trigger upgrade.  So if the rifle already comes with a good trigger...you'll save in the long run.  

Just make sure if you use an AR for internal home defense, that you know what's on the other side of the wall.


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## Board and Seize (Oct 12, 2014)

My $0.02:

You definitely want a forward assist.  I would want a cover for the ejection port, especially if there is a chance you might do some athletic shooting (crawling around, shooting from unusual positions, etc.).  If you want to option to add a flashlight, or anything else then you do _not_ want the old A2 style handguards.  Zip-tieing or duct-taping stuff to your gun is less than ideal.  Finally, I would recommend something without a front sight post that is fixed.  It gets in the way and significantly reduces the length of your handguards - you want your support hand as far forward as it can get.

Best AR for the money in my opinion: http://www.laruetactical.com/16”-larue-tactical-predatar-556



fox1371 said:


> Just make sure if you use an AR for internal home defense, that you know what's on the other side of the wall.


+1


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## pardus (Oct 12, 2014)

I wouldn't buy an AR that didn't have a dust cover or forward assist. 

There are a metric shit ton of good AR's out there, money is going to be a huge factor in what you end up with.


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## Kraut783 (Oct 12, 2014)

Something to think about, buying a used AR.  There are a lot of people who buy some great AR's and do nothing with them and just sell them.  Look at gunbroker.com, or check your gun stores that have a used section.


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## DA SWO (Oct 12, 2014)

Build one yourself.
Hell, I'll build one for you.
You'll get a better weapon and it'll be 50% off.
PM me if you are interested.


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## policemedic (Oct 12, 2014)

^^
This.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 13, 2014)

Okay guys, I'm doing more research and happened upon Huldra Arms http://www.huldraarms.com/
(They are built by Adams).  They talk about their rifle being piston fired, and all the benefits of that.  On other forums all I can find are folks complaining that Huldra is solving a problems that does not exist.

What am I missing?


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## pardus (Oct 13, 2014)

Ooh-Rah1069 said:


> Okay guys, I'm doing more research and happened upon Huldra Arms http://www.huldraarms.com/
> (They are built by Adams).  They talk about their rifle being piston fired, and all the benefits of that.  On other forums all I can find are folks complaining that Huldra is solving a problems that does not exist.
> 
> What am I missing?



You are missing, people that grew up with direct impingement who have a hate for a piston system. It's meaningless blather as long as the piston on your particular AR is a good design (like anything else). LWRC and H&K use pistons in their AR's to name but two and they are top of the line weapons.
Bottom line, Piston guns are more reliable, cleaner and cooler, DI guns are a little more accurate and simple.


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## policemedic (Oct 13, 2014)

Ooh-Rah1069 said:


> Okay guys, I'm doing more research and happened upon Huldra Arms http://www.huldraarms.com/
> (They are built by Adams).  They talk about their rifle being piston fired, and all the benefits of that.  On other forums all I can find are folks complaining that Huldra is solving a problems that does not exist.
> 
> What am I missing?



I carry a LWRC.  In my view, piston systems make more sense.  A design that vents dirt directly into the operating parts--direct impingement-- of the weapon just  isn't  logical to me.

Piston rifles have a slightly different recoil impulse. @pardus is also correct that they are more reliable, cleaner, and run much cooler than DI guns.

What most people mean when they say a piston gun solves a non-existent problem is that most of us don't expose our guns to the kind of environments and/or heavy use that highlight their reliability.  The trunk of my car doesn't have any moon dust conspiring with carbon and other gunk to make the rifle hiccup.  But with that said, my LWRC can eat 1000 rounds and the bolt carrier group still looks showroom clean.  Maintenance is much easier.


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## DA SWO (Oct 14, 2014)

Lot of debate at M4C over DI vs Piston.
Some big names have come out and said they see no real difference.
I'd go DI for a plinker, money saved can be used on good ammo and spare parts.


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## Board and Seize (Oct 14, 2014)

Here's great article written by Mike Pannone that addresses the DI/Piston discussion.  He goes on to show that DI guns are far more reliable than they are often given credit for.  Mike has perhaps the best mechanical and historical understandings of this platform in the industry.  Some of those with the 'fixing a problem that doesn't exist' crowd are probably trying to say something like what is in this article.

http://www.defensereview.com/the-bi...pingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/

Good luck with your search!


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 14, 2014)

If you're going piston it needs to be from the ground up designed as such.  Not many AR's can hold that candle.   I don't run an AR anymore for work or play, but when I did... they were all DI. It's how the weapon was designed.  Half-assed piston sytems don't take full advantage of going piston and leave you with AR acouterments that you shouldn't need with a proper build.

I wouldn't buy an AR without a forward assist and dust cover.


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## x SF med (Oct 14, 2014)

AR in 5.56/.223, I'd go DI for the operating system.   If you go .308/7.62, maybe go to a piston (I shoot an older Belgian FN-FAL Para, it's a friggin tack driver and it's piston). 

Make sure if you go piston or DI that you get a good rifle with a chamber feed ramp that is designed to fire both neck lengths/chamber pressures - it opens up your round availability, and increases the safety if you get 'the other' neck/chamber pressure.

Even though @Ranger Psych is not a fan of .22 ....  fundamentals are fundamentals, and .22 is cheaper than most other.... if you can find it in quantity, I've been shooting a lot of .22 - bolt and semi - lately...  and have been thinking of getting the 10-22 50th anniversary edition just for grins.


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## fox1371 (Oct 14, 2014)

I've carried DI and piston systems.  The only time I've truly noticed a difference in dependability, is when it comes to shooting a suppressed SBR.  The piston system definitely runs much cleaner when you're running suppressed.  Obviously none of this pertains to what you're doing though haha.


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## Etype (Oct 19, 2014)

There are thousands of companies out there that make ARs, only 10 or so are worth it. 

Have you checked out Barnes Precision?  Jerry Miculek shoots one of their uppers and isn't even sponsored by them (he could shoot anything he wants)- their prices are definitely very good for what you are getting.

I, personally, wouldn't buy an AR that didn't say Barnes, JP, LaRue, or Smith and Wesson on it- they have all the bases covered and also span a broad price range.

When it comes to "building" an AR, you're putting together Legos that 20 different Lego companies made.  Some of those companies use the original Lego specs, some don't do so well.  When you get to the top of that Lego castle, all of those small errors may come together in a big one.  Unless you have all the gauges and micrometers needed to properly spec a gun, I would just buy one that I know is going to work.

For disclosure sake, I shoot an M&P 15 with a 13" Troy handguard, Giesle trigger, FNC comp, and Trijicon Accupoint.  Its been more than good enough for 3-gun and hunting- I kill deer with it every year I'm home for hunting season.  It shoots 2" groups with Barnes TSX bullets, which I feel is very good for a non-match barrel.


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## Six-Two (Dec 27, 2014)

In the civilian shooter community I'm a part of, M&P15's are considered the best entry-level AR you can buy. But if you want to go the build-it-yourself route, I've got an 80% Polymer lower I can part with for an old marine (assuming you haven't pulled the trigger on your purchase yet). Just PM me and I'll mail it to you. A bit more complicated, but a fun hobby.


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## Ranger Psych (Dec 27, 2014)

Also, I can't help but smile every time I open up this case pre-at-post range time... Especially if friends of friends are with and haven't laid hands on one. Granted, it's the big'un.  






I'll second Etype's sentiment though. If you're looking for a strictly AR AR, those are the names you should be looking at... and saving up to do so.  Those guys make rifles that are quality pieces of machinery and let you grow knowing that it'll do whatever you ask of it within it's envelope of operation, and any errors should wholly rest on your trigger finger and eyes, not the weapon.  But, if you want a SCAR but are trying to avoid it... why not just save for a bit longer and get one?


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## Six-Two (Dec 27, 2014)

That's a clean machine, @Ranger Psych. 

@Ooh-Rah - if you're just looking for a plinker with AR controls, why not grab a 15-22? They can be had for around $300-350 if you look, and I can attest that they are SUPER fun. Nothing like dumping mags and not balking at the bill afterwards. That way you've got something to play with (and brush up on your rifle shooting/mag changes/tin can assassinations with) while you save up for your piston gun. 

Best,

Six-Two


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## Ranger Psych (Dec 28, 2014)

I'm gonna throw this out there, although I'm on my 4th Moose Drool so bear with me....

Everyone who's recommending a .22LR chambered rifle needs to stop.  This isn't meant in an offensive manner, however if you are of "sound mind" and recommending a .22LR rifle/pistol/anything for a home defense scenario.... Just get creative with an orifice and a cactus, porcupine, badger, or armadillo just because. It's bad, you should feel bad, and no. Just no.


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## policemedic (Dec 28, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> I'm gonna throw this out there, although I'm on my 4th Moose Drool so bear with me....
> 
> Everyone who's recommending a .22LR chambered rifle needs to stop.  This isn't meant in an offensive manner, however if you are of "sound mind" and recommending a .22LR rifle/pistol/anything for a home defense scenario.... Just get creative with an orifice and a cactus, porcupine, badger, or armadillo just because. It's bad, you should feel bad, and no. Just no.



Wait, what's bad... .22s or 'dillo orifices? 'Cause if it's the latter, we need to have an intervention with @pardus.


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## x SF med (Dec 28, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> I'm gonna throw this out there, although I'm on my 4th Moose Drool so bear with me....
> 
> Everyone who's recommending a .22LR chambered rifle needs to stop.  This isn't meant in an offensive manner, however if you are of "sound mind" and recommending a .22LR rifle/pistol/anything for a home defense scenario.... Just get creative with an orifice and a cactus, porcupine, badger, or armadillo just because. It's bad, you should feel bad, and no. Just no.



RP, my recommendation of .22 was for a price reduction in working fundamentals...  for home defense, shotty or pistol... my bolt and battle guns are too powerful (.308 and I like 168-180gr projectiles), I'd be worried about the people 2 blocks down.    Once I finally get a place with a 1/2 mile driveway, then the bolt and battle guns will be for home defense after somebody trips the sensors when I'm not expecting visitors.

And I'm hurt, you haven't sent me pelican cases for Christmas....   42" would work....


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## Ranger Psych (Dec 28, 2014)

policemedic said:


> Wait, what's bad... .22s or 'dillo orifices? 'Cause if it's the latter, we need to have an intervention with @pardus.



Pardus is a lost cause, just like Obama, Afghanistan, and Firemedic.   



x SF med said:


> RP, my recommendation of .22 was for a price reduction in working fundamentals...  for home defense, shotty or pistol... my bolt and battle guns are too powerful (.308 and I like 168-180gr projectiles), I'd be worried about the people 2 blocks down.    Once I finally get a place with a 1/2 mile driveway, then the bolt and battle guns will be for home defense after somebody trips the sensors when I'm not expecting visitors.
> 
> And I'm hurt, you haven't sent me pelican cases for Christmas....   42" would work....



Pfft. Learn to frangible and not fuck your neighbors over bro.  We'll see about the pelicans, maybe if you DX the PACNW and come desertside.


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## BellRinger5984 (Dec 28, 2014)

Ranger Psych that is one sexy rifle you have.


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## Sendero (Dec 28, 2014)

This is a classic SS thread. Informative and hilarious at the same time.


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## medicchick (Dec 28, 2014)

Ah ShadowSpear, the one place where you can spend more on gun cases then some people do on their actual guns and no one thinks you're odd...

Every time I look at that picture it reminds me I need to do my case up still.:-"


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## policemedic (Dec 28, 2014)

Maybe we need a gun case thread. Long live Pelican!


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## Marine0311 (Dec 28, 2014)

Bookmarked for the future.


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## Six-Two (Dec 28, 2014)

Marine0311 said:


> Bookmarked for the future.



Yeah, I'm pretty curious what he winds up with. I'll laugh my ass of it's a WASR 10.


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## Six-Two (Dec 28, 2014)

*IF it's a WASR10... Stupid no-edit privileges.


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## Florida173 (Dec 28, 2014)

I like buying local.
Spikes Tactical

Some nickel plated stuff and what not.. I dunno.. I just shoot the thing


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## Six-Two (Dec 28, 2014)

Florida173 said:


> I like buying local.
> Spikes Tactical
> 
> Some nickel plated stuff and what not.. I dunno.. I just shoot the thing



That thing is slick as hell. What's that baby weigh with the UBR, Bull Barrel, and full quad?


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## BloodStripe (Jan 3, 2015)

Does anyone have any knowledge or experience on Adam Arms? I can get a sweet deal on one but I have never fired one and nobody I know has either.


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## Six-Two (Jan 3, 2015)

On a conversion kit or one of their uppers?


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## BloodStripe (Jan 3, 2015)

Entire rifle. I can pick one up for cheaper than I could build one. Granted my upper choices are not cheap, but for 600 or so less than street price for a new rifle, it's hard to pass up.


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## Six-Two (Jan 3, 2015)

OOF. For $600 under street, roll the dice, man. They've got a lifetime warranty, so you may as well. Shit, if you don't like it, I'll take it off your hands. ;)


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## x SF med (Jan 3, 2015)

SOTGWarrior said:


> Does anyone have any knowledge or experience on Adam Arms? I can get a sweet deal on one but I have never fired one and nobody I know has either.



I've only fired one of their full builds, I liked it.  They are the company for building piston M4geries.


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## Florida173 (Jan 4, 2015)

I'm trying to get set for a 10" next


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## x SF med (Jan 4, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> I'm trying to get set for a 10" next



Yeah, I had to....  I have a song for that post....


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## HOLLiS (Jan 4, 2015)

x SF med said:


> Yeah, I had to....  I have a song for that post....




Well noone in that band could get ten inches on the cover.  (There is a early 70's comic routine on this premise, had to do with 12 inches)


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## pardus (Jan 4, 2015)

Beware the homemade gun that uses 30 caliber clips to disperse with 30 bullets within half a second, 30 magazine clip in half a second!

GHOST GUN!


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## Six-Two (Jan 6, 2015)

pardus said:


> Beware the homemade gun that uses 30 caliber clips to disperse with 30 bullets within half a second, 30 magazine clip in half a second!
> 
> GHOST GUN!



My buddy had a couple of those, before his boat sank in a freak accident.


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