# Pre-Commissioning (ROTC, OCS, West Point) Questions and Answers



## Marauder06 (Aug 2, 2011)

I've received quite a few emails and PMs from people asking questions related to ROTC, OCS, West Point, the commissioning process, and specific branches. The questions have been focused and well-researched, and I'm always glad to talk to aspiring officers, but much of my information about pre-commissioning and what young LTs need to know is 16+ years old. I'm starting this thread so people who have questions about pre-commissioning programs can ask them here and have them answered by people whose information is a bit more current.

Ground rules: If you want to ask a question here, no problem, just keep in mind that most of the members here will expect you to do your own research first, to communicate effectively and concisely, and to otherwise act like the officer you aspire to be. If you're responding to a question asked about a pre-commissioning program, please restrict your response to factual, current (i.e. what's happening "now," not what you saw happen years ago) and accurate information.

A bit later I'll post up some of the questions I've been asked in the past and see if anyone has any input.


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## yarles87 (Aug 3, 2011)

I'm recently commissioned - USMC. I've got a good deal of gouge on the various commissioning programs in the Corps through my personal experiences and through helping out the Officer Selection Office. I have some knowledge on NSW commissioning programs as well, as my roommate recently went through that process. I'm more than happy to help and give some info back to these boards, as I've received a lot of knowledge from SS. 'Rah


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## Marauder06 (Aug 4, 2011)

Okay everyone, this is supposed to be the thread that "helps" young or aspiring officers, the thread to "heckle" them is... well... every other thread.

Yarles, thanks for being the first one to post up in this thread, with the number of Marines and want-to-be-Marines on the site, I think your experience and willingness to share it will prove very useful.


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## rv808 (Aug 11, 2011)

It's been five years (gulp) since I finished Army OCS.  It has changed alot since I attended (I swear my class was the last hard one =).


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## Marauder06 (Aug 11, 2011)

Care to share anything about your OCS experiences?  I'm very familiar with ROTC and West Point, but I know next to nothing about OCS.


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## AWP (Aug 11, 2011)

And then there's the NG version of OCS which 99%+ of the NG guys have to attend....


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## rv808 (Aug 11, 2011)

Sir, it was 14 weeks of fun (especially after 9 weeks of basic.  No liberty until week 11, and you actually could get recycled for failing something (I was so great a land nav, they put me in a later class just to verify my outstanding scores).

I entered when the Army was offering an 8k bonus for their zero to hero programs (civi to gentleman in 23 weeks).  Sometime in early 2006, Congress decided it was illegal, and gave the option to hundreds of OCSers to get out of the Army for breach of contract on the gov't's part.  This was at a time when the Army needed JOs bad.  I remember going through OCS, and literally losing 1 person a day to this.  Around week four (late April 2006) was when they could officially start getting chaptered with an honorable discharge.  It seemed to just be a few at first that really wanted out, but as OCS got tougher , we were losing more.  FF to Aug 2006, and when I finished, the Army had lost an entire OCS Company to that policy (~120 students).

As for the course.  The first three weeks are in-processing, class and then train up for land nav week....week 4.  This used to be the single largest attrition event for OCS.  My class lost 30 percent (including me) to land nav alone.  They included batt boys, Infantry, Engineers, admin, Navy, AF, and new Soldiers.  Yankee North/South at FT Benning. Days ran from 0500 till 2200.  Upon entering and leaving the DFAC for every meal, you would do as many pullups for whatever week you were in (3 pullups for week 3).  PT was everyday, running M, W, and F with combatives on Tuesday and Thursday.

Weeks 5 and 6 were back in the classroom, learning about call for fire, rank structure, platoon operations, five paragraph OPORD, TLPs.  Week 7 was the first FTX, and it put alot of what you learned into action.  Crawl was the classroom, walk was FLX1, and the run phase is FLX 2 (evaluation time).

Weeks 8 and 9 were the Inspections, and the call for fire test (which was the second largest attrition event).

Weeks 10 and 11 is the second FTX, a lovely two weeks in the dirt.  You were evaluated on your leadership for two events (squad leader, PSG or PL).  If you had two GOs, you were good.  A third was a make up if you failed one of them.

Weeks 11-14 were mostly cleaning up equipment, introduction to the "social" side of being an Officer, and a final PT test.  The days are scaled back to 9 to 6.

For my class, it was about 80% graduation rate.  People got recycled the day before graduation, back to day 1.


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## rv808 (Aug 11, 2011)

On a side note:  tough and 80% graduation rate should never be used in the same post :cool:


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## moobob (Aug 11, 2011)

I'm submitting a green to gold application. I was accepted to USMAPS years ago, but didn't go through with it.


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## Marauder06 (Aug 11, 2011)

I think Green to Gold is one of the best programs out there.    Steady paycheck while you're getting your degree, and a guaranteed job (i.e. commission) after?  Hard to beat.


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## rv808 (Aug 11, 2011)

I agree sir.  It saves your GI bill, and continues your active duty service toward retirement


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## x SF med (Aug 11, 2011)

rv808 said:


> On a side note: tough and 80% graduation rate should never be used in the same post :cool:



Thanks for the insight on the OCS side.  I did ROTC/SMP back in the Day Civil War times per some of the smart asses around this place  and got the HD from that to Enlist and go SF (as I was told by an SF SGM and SF MSG).


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## Totentanz (Aug 11, 2011)

Sir, I'll just add a few "more recent" comments (I graduated July 2009). The core of what you've posted hasn't changed, but just to fine tune it...

First thing - the course length has been reduced from 14 weeks to 12. That, along with the structure, may change/have changed with the deletion of BOLC II. We spent 6 weeks as junior candidates, 6 weeks as senior. Your description of weeks 1-6 sounds very similar to my experience - most of the shift I think occurred in the second half. Immediately after land nav (which was a solid kick in the balls) and switching over to senior at the end of week six, we headed to the field for three weeks with Sundays being recover days to return, run laundry, get a haircut, restock on field items, etc (usually on a mad blitz during a 3 or 4 hour pass to hit the PX). The last three weeks were history II, "officer and a gentleman" stuff, and outprocessing.

Although you could recycle for failing something, multiple opportunities were given to those who needed them (academic tests were an exception to that policy, two failures on the same test and you were an automatic recycle... multiple retests would result in the same, I think the limit was 3). The policy on FLX was that you had to have more than 50% gos, with a minimum of 3 evals (that said, if you got 2/2... cadre didn't bother with a 3rd eval).... but there were several candidates who were thrown more and more lanes because they were consistently racking up no-gos.

The only "tough" part of OCS I encountered was the intentionally-generated BS. But if you could play the game and navigate the BS, the commission was yours. It was more frustrating than it was difficult.

_(caveat... as stated, I graduated two years ago. At that point in time, the Army was still hurting for company-grade officers. It's my understanding that between the coming drawdown, the surplus of candidates, the elimination of BOLC II, and a myriad of other factors that have changed since I went through, OCS may look vastly different from what I experienced)_



rv808 said:


> Sir, it was 14 weeks of fun (especially after 9 weeks of basic. No liberty until week 11, and you actually could get recycled for failing something (I was so great a land nav, they put me in a later class just to verify my outstanding scores).
> 
> I entered when the Army was offering an 8k bonus for their zero to hero programs (civi to gentleman in 23 weeks). Sometime in early 2006, Congress decided it was illegal, and gave the option to hundreds of OCSers to get out of the Army for breach of contract on the gov't's part. This was at a time when the Army needed JOs bad. I remember going through OCS, and literally losing 1 person a day to this. Around week four (late April 2006) was when they could officially start getting chaptered with an honorable discharge. It seemed to just be a few at first that really wanted out, but as OCS got tougher , we were losing more. FF to Aug 2006, and when I finished, the Army had lost an entire OCS Company to that policy (~120 students).
> 
> ...


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## Totentanz (Aug 11, 2011)

Another comment: I honestly learned FAR more from living with/next-to former NCOs for 12 weeks, picking their brains, watching them react to situations (both FLX lanes and life in general in the Army), general life advice etc than I did from the course itself.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 11, 2011)

moobob said:


> I was accepted to USMAPS years ago, but didn't go through with it.



I did too as a backup to SFAS, was a hard choice to not go.


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## ben (Aug 22, 2011)

USMC OCS Summer 2009, commissioned this Spring, and I am currently at TBS about 1/3 of the way through. If anyone has any questions feel free to shoot me a PM, but there's no telling how long it will take me to get around to answering it.


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## TH15 (Aug 22, 2011)

ben said:


> USMC OCS Summer 2009, commissioned this Spring, and I am currently at TBS about 1/3 of the way through. If anyone has any questions feel free to shoot me a PM, but there's no telling how long it will take me to get around to answering it.


Thanks Ben and congratulations. I'll PM you tonight or tomorrow with some questions.


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## tmroun01 (Aug 24, 2011)

Has anyone gone through ROTC, while getting their MBA or any other degree above BA and BS? Was their any differences in what was expected from you compared to the newly graduated high school ROTC guy?


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## x SF med (Aug 24, 2011)

tmroun01 said:


> Has anyone gone through ROTC, while getting their MBA or any other degree above BA and BS? Was their any differences in what was expected from you compared to the newly graduated high school ROTC guy?


 
When I did the ROTC/SMP thing we had a couple of Master's guys and gals in the ROTC program there was no slack given.  We also had Prior Service Enlisted guys...  the staff expected even more from them.


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## Purple (Aug 24, 2011)

I was a SSG(P) SF NCO when I went to OCS with 8.5 years of service. My sequence number for promotion to SFC came up while I was in OCS but I never pinned on the rank. I enjoyed my 14 weeks there immensely (especially the carrot cake, clean sheets, and a/c billets) and was an Honor Grad who qualified expert on all weapons. I was commissioned a 2LT of Infantry on 13 April 1979 - which happened to be Friday the 13th and Good Friday that year. :)

I would do it all again in a heart beat.

Purple


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## MacK (Sep 15, 2011)

I am a recent graduate(Dec 2010) of the NROTC Marine Option program and I would be more than willing to help out anyone looking for information on it. Just sent me a PM and I'll get back to you asap. I am currently at TBS so depending on when you send it may take a while for me to get back to you.


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## rv808 (Sep 16, 2011)

MacK said:


> I am a recent graduate(Dec 2010) of the NROTC Marine Option program and I would be more than willing to help out anyone looking for information on it. Just sent me a PM and I'll get back to you asap. I am currently at TBS so depending on when you send it may take a while for me to get back to you.



Do the Marines still do it in a third tier system at TBS for branches?  What are your top choices?  What has your experiences been like at TBS (It's too late to move over to the Army, sorry).  Care to expand on the Room of Pain at IOC?


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## MacK (Sep 16, 2011)

rv808 said:


> Do the Marines still do it in a third tier system at TBS for branches? What are your top choices? What has your experiences been like at TBS (It's too late to move over to the Army, sorry)<--- Hahahaha! Move *to* the army. Care to expand on the Room of Pain at IOC?



To answer your first question, yes we do. Its known as the Quality Spread. I would explain the way it works but this web site does a better job of it:

http://www.mymos.tbs.usmc.mil/MyMOS/Students_Staff/Process_Info.aspx

My top choices were Infantry, HumInt, Ground Intel, Armor and Sig Intel. I received Infantry. If you already know something about IOC then you probably also know that they like to keep all information about it locked up nice and tight.


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## rv808 (Sep 17, 2011)

MacK said:


> To answer your first question, yes we do. Its known as the Quality Spread. I would explain the way it works but this web site does a better job of it:
> 
> http://www.mymos.tbs.usmc.mil/MyMOS/Students_Staff/Process_Info.aspx
> 
> My top choices were Infantry, HumInt, Ground Intel, Armor and Sig Intel. I received Infantry. If you already know something about IOC then you probably also know that they like to keep all information about it locked up nice and tight.



LOL good stuff there young Marine.  Thank you for signing up to serve, especially in the Infantry.


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## Teufel (Sep 18, 2011)

0302, infantry, you made it!


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 25, 2011)

I hope this is the proper place for this.  I was planning on posting this in this forum anyway, then I found this thread near the top, so here goes.
Next year I'll be submitting a package for Seaman to Admiral - 21 (STA-21).  The packages have to be postmarked NLT 01 JUL and by that time I'll be an E4 either waiting on orders to C-school or just getting into my C-school.  My main concern is that I'll be up against many applicants with much more knowledge of the Fleet, quails, etc than I have.  I've done some looking around in the forums on NKO and have found that it's not uncommon for 3rd classes to get picked up for the program, yet my concern still remains.  The other issue is my age.  I turn 30 in December and the 2 programs I'm interested in would require my BA to be obtained by the time I'm 35.  They pay for your tuition & books as long as you can complete your degree in 3 years time.  Will my age be a pro or a con with something like this?
In the civilian world, I've been in some sort of managerial position for the past 8 years or so leading up to my enlistment.  I always seem to be looked upon for leadership and when placed in some kind of leadership position I've always excelled.
I guess that's it for now.  If you need any more info about me or the program, just ask.  I'll provide a link to the website below.
Thank you all for your time!

http://www.sta-21.navy.mil/program_overview.asp


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## Marauder06 (Sep 25, 2011)

When you say "will my age be a pro or con" do you mean for STA or for getting a degree?  Personally, I think your maturity will be an asset when it comes to getting a degree.  I was waaaaay more focused and mature when I was 30 than when I was 20, I think most people are.  So in that regard, being a bit older could be an asset.  How many credits do you already have?


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 25, 2011)

Marauder06 said:


> When you say "will my age be a pro or con" do you mean for STA or for getting a degree? Personally, I think your maturity will be an asset when it comes to getting a degree. I was waaaaay more focused and mature when I was 30 than when I was 20, I think most people are. So in that regard, being a bit older could be an asset. How many credits do you already have?


Sorry.  I meant will my age be pro/con when being viewed by the brass who select the guys for the program?  I agree 100% on the age issue once I get into the class room.  It's getting there through this program that is my concern.
I have 48 credits already.


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## AWP (Sep 26, 2011)

SL, A good friend of mine, prior enlisted Navy Reservist (Russian Linguist) applied forthe SDO Intel position after a 12+ year break in service and he's 37 or 38. He didn't make it, not because of his age, but his duration out of uniform and the limited number of slots available. I think he's reapplied, but I wouldn't sweat your age. You have just under a year to submit your packet. Go out and bust your ass and prove to your Chiefs and COC that you are "The Man" in your unit for this program and earn their endorsements.

You can't change your age, but you can shape your odds and I'd worry about the latter, not the former which you don't control.


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## rv808 (Sep 26, 2011)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Sorry. I meant will my age be pro/con when being viewed by the brass who select the guys for the program? I agree 100% on the age issue once I get into the class room. It's getting there through this program that is my concern.
> I have 48 credits already.



I went to OCS at age 28, and went there with several people who were older than you (41).  The older ones were some of the most amazing Candidates.  Your sailors won't care if you are 35, 45, 55, or 65.......take care of them, and lead them....they will follow.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 6, 2011)

Fucking shit, I thought I had posted the beginning of my personal statement here.  I guess it didn't stay for some reason.  Anyhow, here's what they want to see:

Format - plain bond paper; 10 or 12 pitch; on the top of the page center "Personal Statement"; paragraphs blocked or indented; keep it at one page; four lines below the last line of typing, add your full name, and signature above your name. A personally composed statement presenting reasons for desiring STA-21 participation and the applicant's professional/vocational intentions in a specific designator of the URL of the U.S. Navy. Comprehension of and motivation for a selected designator(s) of the URL are of significance to the selection board. (Exceptions: STA-21 CEC Option, STA-21 Supply Corps Option, STA-21 Special Duty Officer (Intelligence, Information Warfare, SWO/IP, SWO/OCEANO, and SWO/ED), Human Resources, Oceanography, STA-21 Medical and Nurse Corps Option applicants should address specific desires for their selected target group option.  Address any other relevant information or substantial accomplishments not already covered. In addition, address any waiver requests, for example, age and time in service requirements, if applicable. Keep in mind, next to CO's Endorsement/recommendation, your personal statement is the most important document.

And here's what I have so far:


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## Marauder06 (Oct 6, 2011)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Fucking shit, I thought I had posted the beginning of my personal statement here. I guess it didn't stay for some reason. Anyhow, here's what they want to see:
> 
> Format - plain bond paper; 10 or 12 pitch; on the top of the page center "Personal Statement"; paragraphs blocked or indented; keep it at one page; four lines below the last line of typing, add your full name, and signature above your name. A personally composed statement presenting reasons for desiring STA-21 participation and the applicant's professional/vocational intentions in a specific designator of the URL of the U.S. Navy. Comprehension of and motivation for a selected designator(s) of the URL are of significance to the selection board. (Exceptions: STA-21 CEC Option, STA-21 Supply Corps Option, STA-21 Special Duty Officer (Intelligence, Information Warfare, SWO/IP, SWO/OCEANO, and SWO/ED), Human Resources, Oceanography, STA-21 Medical and Nurse Corps Option applicants should address specific desires for their selected target group option. Address any other relevant information or substantial accomplishments not already covered. In addition, address any waiver requests, for example, age and time in service requirements, if applicable. Keep in mind, next to CO's Endorsement/recommendation, your personal statement is the most important document.
> 
> And here's what I have so far:



There was a glitch in the matrix and we lost a couple days' worth of posts.

I'll take a look at your statement and give you some feedback later tonight.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 6, 2011)

OK, so you were in AF ROTC and dropped out, and then enlisted in the Navy?  Or did you do something else first?


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 6, 2011)

Marauder06 said:


> OK, so you were in AF ROTC and dropped out, and then enlisted in the Navy? Or did you do something else first?



That's still to come in the personal statement.  8 years of retail management between leaving NC State Univ. and enlisting in the Navy.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 6, 2011)

OK, so I made a few changes.  This thing can't be longer than a page, and I was getting into where I had been instead of where I want to go.  So I'm trying to find a happy balance between "this is what I've done for the past 9 years to make me a good candidate" and "this is why I want to be selected and why I'd be an asset and this is what I know about the field I want to go into".  Evidently, knowledge of the URL (Unrestricted Line = O designation) is a BIG deal.  So, if you would, tell me what you think about what I have so far.  I have some research to do before I waste any more key strokes on unneeded information in this statement.
Thank you, gents!!


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 23, 2011)

OK, I "finished" tonight and here's what I have.  I know it needs to be tweaked here and there, but I want opinions on the overall statement.  I can take constructive criticism as long as it's just that.  I look forward to what you all have to say.


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## Marauder06 (Oct 23, 2011)

Check your PMs.


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## skeeter (Feb 19, 2012)

Hello,
     I have been in Army ROTC for about a month and a half now. Tuesday one of the Cadre members walked up to me in one of my classes and told me that I had be selected to go to the Leadership Training Course (LTC) for this summer, and then just walked away. I'm reading up on everything I can get my hands on about the course. Does anyone have any experience or tips for this course?

                                                                                                                               Thanks,

                                                                                                                                Skeeter


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## skeeter (Feb 19, 2012)

"that I had *been *selected"   Sorry, I caught that typo after the edit button timed out.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 19, 2012)

Leadership training course?  Never heard of it.  It that a fancy new name for "basic camp" or CTLT?


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## Totentanz (Feb 19, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> Leadership training course? Never heard of it. It that a fancy new name for "basic camp" or CTLT?


 
Sir, from what I understand of the course, it's similar to LDAC. A couple friends of mine went to it after they were transplanted from USAF and Navy ROTC courses and had missed LDAC.

Skeeter, how far along are you in school?


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## skeeter (Feb 19, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> Leadership training course? Never heard of it. It that a fancy new name for "basic camp" or CTLT?


I can not say for sure, but that is probably correct for "basic camp."  It is not however, CTLT. All I really know about the course is that it is one month at Ft. Knox Ky. It allows students to skip the first two years of ROTC and focus on the Military science three and four classes.


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## skeeter (Feb 19, 2012)

Totentanz said:


> Sir, from what I understand of the course, it's similar to LDAC. A couple friends of mine went to it after they were transplanted from USAF and Navy ROTC courses and had missed LDAC.
> 
> Skeeter, how far along are you in school?


 
According to the school I am considered a junior by hours, but I am truly only a sophomore within the nursing curriculum. I apply for the actual School of Nursing at the beginning of the month, and if accepted I will have 5 more semesters left to graduate with my BSN.


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## ThunderHorse (Feb 23, 2012)

LTC is not similar to LDAC at all.  I have not attended as I was on a four year scholarship.  LTC is pretty much BCT lite.


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