# HK416, FN SCAR, M-4, XM-8 competition



## bison11 (Jan 16, 2008)

well...the results are in. For those who havent heard how the weapons did in their recent competition, here are the stats...

XM-8: 127 stoppages

SCAR Light: 226 stoppages

HK416: 233 stoppages

M4:882 stoppages

so...what are your thoughts on this one? you guys think the M4 should get the can?


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## RackMaster (Jan 16, 2008)

What competition?  Where is your source for these statistic's?

I think I have an idea of what your talking about but you should be more specific when you start a thread.  Make sure to include your sources, try to work on your sentence structure and grammar.  Not trying to pick on you but it's a little pet peeve of a lot of the board members, myself including.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jan 20, 2008)

Moved to weapons. I'm deleting this unless you provide a source.


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## AWP (Jan 20, 2008)

http://www.defensereview.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=1077

The source:

http://www.armytimes.com/news/2007/12/army_carbine_dusttest_071217/

30 seconds of Google. If you have the article, finding the source isn't that difficult.


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## 8'Duece (Jan 20, 2008)

I'm looking for the source, but in the meantime, I believe those numbers where posted before they realized that an extra coat of lubrication was needed . If I remember correctily the M4 number of stoppages was cut in half with a heavy lubrication during these tests.

Defense review is not generally hailed as the best information for matters of these nature.

Army Times

news/2007/12/army_carbine_dusttest_071217
Newer carbines outperform *M4* in dust test

By Matthew Cox - Staff writer
Posted : Monday Dec 17, 2007 9:25:16 EST

The M4 carbine, the weapon soldiers depend on in combat, finished last in a recent “extreme dust test” to demonstrate the *M4’s* reliability compared to three newer carbines.

Weapons officials at the Army Test and Evaluation Center at Aberdeen Proving Ground, Md., exposed Colt Defense LLC’s M4, along with the Heckler & Koch XM8, FNH USA’s Special Operations Forces Combat Assault Rifle and the H&K 416 to sandstorm conditions from late September to late November, firing 6,000 rounds through each test weapon.

When the test was completed, ATEC officials found that the *M4* performed “significantly worse” than the other three weapons, sources told Army Times.

Officials tested 10 each of the four carbine models, firing a total of 60,000 rounds per model. Here’s how they ranked, according to the total number of times each model stopped firing:

• XM8: 127 stoppages.

• MK16 *SCAR* Light: 226 stoppages.

• 416: 233 stoppages.

• M4: 882 stoppages.

the results of the test were “a wake-up call,” but Army officials continue to stand by the current carbine, said Brig. Gen. Mark Brown, commander of Program Executive Office Soldier, the command that is responsible for equipping soldiers.

“We take the results of this test with a great deal of interest and seriousness,” Brown said, expressing his determination to outfit soldiers with the best equipment possible.

The test results did not sway the Army’s faith in the *M4*, he said.

“Everybody in the Army has high confidence in this weapon,” Brown said.

Lighter and more compact than the M16 rifle, the *M4* is more effective for the close confines of urban combat. The Army began fielding the M4 in the mid-1990s.

Army weapons officials agreed to perform the test at the request of Sen. Tom Coburn, R-Okla., in July. Coburn took up the issue following a Feb. 26 Army Times report on moves by elite Army combat forces to ditch the *M4* in favor of carbines they consider more reliable. Coburn is questioning the Army’s plans to spend $375 million to purchase M4s through fiscal 2009.

Coburn raised concerns over the M4’s “long-standing reliability” problems in an April 12 letter and asked if the Army had considered newer, possibly better weapons available on the commercial market.

John Hart, a spokesman for Coburn, who was traveling, said the senator was reviewing the test results and had yet to discuss it with the Army.

The M4, like its predecessor, the M16, uses a gas tube system, which relies on the gas created when a bullet is fired to cycle the weapon. Some weapons experts maintain the *M4’s* system of blowing gas directly into the firing mechanism of the weapon spews carbon residue that can lead to fouling and heat that dries up lubrication, causing excessive wear on parts.

The other contenders in the dust test — the XM8, *SCAR* and 416 — use a piston-style operating system, which relies on a gas-driven piston rod to cycle the weapon during firing. The gas is vented without funneling through the firing mechanism.

The Army’s Delta Force replaced its M4s with the H&K 416 in 2004 after tests revealed that the piston operating system significantly reduces malfunctions while increasing the life of parts. The elite unit collaborated with the German arms maker to develop the new carbine.

U.S. Special Operations Command has also revised its small-arms requirements. In November 2004, SOCom awarded a developmental contract to FN Herstal to develop its new *SCAR* to replace its weapons from the M16 family.

And from 2002 to 2005, the Army developed the XM8 as a replacement for the Army’s M16 family. The program led to infighting within the service’s weapons community and eventually died after failing to win approval at the Defense Department level.

How they were tested

The recent Aberdeen dust test used 10 sample models of each weapon. Before going into the dust chamber, testers applied a heavy coat of lubrication to each weapon. Each weapon’s muzzle was capped and ejection port cover closed.

Testers exposed the weapons to a heavy dust environment for 30 minutes before firing 120 rounds from each.

The weapons were then put back in the dust chamber for another 30 minutes and fired another 120 rounds. This sequence was repeated until each weapon had fired 600 rounds.

Testers then wiped down each weapon and applied another heavy application of lubrication.

The weapons were put back through the same sequence of 30 minutes in the dust chamber followed by firing 120 rounds from each weapon until another 600 rounds were fired.

Testers then thoroughly cleaned each weapon, re-lubricated each, and began the dusting and fire sequencing again.

This process was repeated until testers fired 6,000 rounds through each weapon.

The dust test exposed the weapons to the same extreme dust and sand conditions that Army weapons officials subjected the M4 and M16 to during a “systems assessment” at Aberdeen last year and again this summer. The results of the second round of ATEC tests showed that the performance of the *M4s* dramatically improved when testers increased the amount of lubrication used.

Out of the 60,000 rounds fired in the tests earlier in the summer, the 10 M4s tested had 307 stoppages, test results show, far fewer than the 882 in the most recent test.

in the recent tests, the M4 suffered 643 weapon-related stoppages, such as failure to eject or failure to extract fired casings, and 239 magazine-related stoppages.

Colt officials had not seen the test report and would not comment for this story, said James Battaglini, executive vice president for Colt Defense LLC, on Dec. 14.

Army officials are concerned about the gap between the two tests becaus the “test conditions for test two and three were ostensibly the same,” Brown said.

There were, however, minor differences in the two tests because they were conducted at different times of the year with different test officials, Brown said. Test community officials are analyzing the data to try to explain why the M4 performed worse during this test.

Weapons officials pointed out that these tests were conducted in extreme conditions that did not address “reliability in typical operational conditions,” the test report states.

Despite the last-place showing, Army officials say there is no movement toward replacing the *M4.*

The Army wants its next soldier weapon to be a true leap ahead, rather than a series of small improvements, Brown said.

“That is what the intent is,” he said, “to give our soldiers the very best and we are not going to rest until we do that.”

Col. Robert Radcliffe, head of the Directorate of Combat Developments for the Infantry Center at Fort Benning, Ga., said the test results will be considered as the Army continues to search for ways to improve soldier weapons.

For now, he said the Army will stick with the M4, because soldier surveys from Iraq and Afghanistan continue to highlight the weapon’s popularity among troops in the combat zone.

“The *M4* is performing for them in combat, and it does what they needed to do in combat,” Radcliffe said.
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__________________Ooooops, sorry this is the same link that Freefallin posted. Guess it's easier to read anyway if you dont like opening up another link.


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## RackMaster (Jan 20, 2008)

Thanks guys. ;)  I think I read the same articles when I googled it.


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## HeloMedic1171 (Jan 21, 2008)

in answer to the original question - yes.  shit-can the M4 for the 416 or even the SCAR.  but i feel likethe M4 is old, semi-reliable technology that can be improved on.  while there's no substitute for good weapons maintenance, I shouldn't have to break down and clean my weapon after every firefight.  that's asinine.


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## Operator (Jan 22, 2008)

Was the XM8 at some point considered to be adapted as the new standard rifle for the US Military? If this is correct, whats the status on that?


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jan 23, 2008)

Operator said:


> Was the XM8 at some point considered to be adapted as the new standard rifle for the US Military? If this is correct, whats the status on that?



It was at one point, yes.  The program was stopped for whatever reason.


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## 8'Duece (Jan 23, 2008)

Boondocksaint375 said:


> It was at one point, yes.  The program was stopped for whatever reason.



Theres was, "Was" bein the operative word, a ground breaking for the new H&K XM8 rifle plant in Augusta, Georgia near the "Home of the Infantry" Ft. Benning. This was like three agos but the land stills sports a sign with no other ground breaking having taken place since that day. This was told to me by a firearms and suppressor manufacturer close to the situation. 

The XM8 is nothing more than a G36 with some "outer space" looking furniture.

I don't claim to have any understanding of the politics, protocol, testing and final procurement of new weapons systems thought out the Armed Forces of the United States, but it seems to me that nobody want's to actually adopt a new weapons system when their head my be on the chopping block is the weapon systems proves unreliable and or that influences, mush like congress spending, have alway's come into play. 

If they want eliminat magazine failures why not give the Mag Pul PMAG's a fair shot at their reliability. Much cheaper than awarding a billion dollar contract for an entire weapon systems that has a new learning curve too steep for most NG's units and other units not supported with funding and range opporunities to use new lubrication standards and new mags and possibly a small stronger extractor spring into everyones bolt carrier and assembly. 

Just my .02


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