# Carbine / Battle rifle Question...



## arizonaguide (Apr 12, 2009)

Okay, here's the deal. I'm limited on funds after purchasing pistols, and I'm at a loss deciding what to do for a 300-500yds semi-auto Carbine / Battle rifle.

I work at a gunshop and can have stuff transferred easily (if I can find it).
I was strongly considering trying to get an old M1 Garand, but I don't want to chance the 90day+ wait on the orders, in the race to beat the ban.
:uhh:

I would like to put something together (or find something) starting with $1000 or less (maybe dreaming). I can assemble a rifle fine, but don't want to try to bend/machine much of anything (as mentioned in the AK build).

Any suggestions?

Should I just try to get a lower receiver (if I can find one that will ship in a couple days available), and start from there (lots of $$$ to finish it these days)...or does anybody have any better suggestions? I'm still seeing Mini-14's for $900ish. SKS's also. M1 Carbines.
I can't decide about the best bang for the little bucks left (being in a hurry to beat any possible ban).

At least I've got the 1911 squared away now.

Thanks folks, for any advice.
:cool:


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 12, 2009)

Just depends on what kind of ammo you are looking to shoot, 7.62/ 5.56? I am all about AR15's but I am also a fan of the AR10 and M14. 

http://www.gunsamerica.com/99406900.../Rock_River_Stripped_AR_15_Type_Lower_New.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/916331795/Guns/Rifles/Ruger-Rifles/Mini-14-Type/Ruger_Mini_14_223.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/90501611...Rifles/AUTO_ORDNANCE_M1_CARBINE_WALNUT_NE.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/90825406.../Century_Arms_Cetme_Sporter_308_Win_Rifle.htm

http://www.gunsamerica.com/948105416/Guns/Rifles/Norinco-Rifles/NORINCO_SKS_7_62X39.htm


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## arizonaguide (Apr 12, 2009)

At this point I'm open to anything...just to get a semi-auto (300-500yds gun) in my hands ASAP before the possible ban gets weaseled through.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 12, 2009)

Buy a stripped AR15 lower, you can pick one up for $150-$180 and tuck it away until you have the money to build it up. As shown in the AR15 build thread, it too easy to put one together.

Simple plan would be to spend $100 a paycheck on parts you need, in 6 or 7 weeks you will have an AR15 built up the way you want it built...

There is more then enough info and people on here that will help you find what you need at bottom $ prices.


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## HOLLiS (Apr 12, 2009)

^^^  What he said,   Great suggestion.


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## doorkicker (Apr 12, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> Okay, here's the deal. I'm limited on funds after purchasing pistols, and I'm at a loss deciding what to do for a 300-500yds semi-auto Carbine / Battle rifle.
> 
> I'm still seeing Mini-14's for $900ish. SKS's also.


Stay clear of both Mini-14s & the SKS if you want dependable accuracy.



J.A.B. said:


> Buy a stripped AR15 lower, you can pick one up for $150-$180 and tuck it away until you have the money to build it up. As shown in the AR15 build thread, it too easy to put one together.


Lowers are easy to find right now at reasonable prices...and if you know where to look they are in stock in a multitude of places.  Catch 22though....
With the ban-scare, everyone has run out and bought lowers with the thought of building the rest up later since the lower is the only serialized piece...it is now uppers & parts that are in super high demand and difficult to find at reasonable prices.

Example...
RRA parts kits that were going for $60 bucks are now in th neighborhood of $100.00
LMT uppers were $430.00 I see them now for $750.00
BCGs are VERY hard to find anywhere, less you pony up for the chrome ones (which I'd recommend anyway)....



J.A.B. said:


> Simple plan would be to spend $100 a paycheck on parts you need, in 6 or 7 weeks you will have an AR15 built up the way you want it built...There is more then enough info and people on here that will help you find what you need at bottom $ prices.


+1

I would also tell you this since you are in the air on calibers...
Ammo ain't cheap and it sure as hell aint getting any cheaper, which I'm sure you know since you work at a shop...but any match ammo you shoot will cost upwards of a dollar a round easily now.

With all that garbage being said...
Build an SPR.


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## arizonaguide (Apr 12, 2009)

Thanks folks. That was kinda what I figured.
So, any advice on the best deal on a stripped lower?

Thanks again folks, for your time and expertise!

Given more time/money, I of course would love an M1A, and really just wanted a Garand (sentimental).
But that's kind of a "crapshoot" on quality these days, unless one happens to come through the shop again.
https://shadowspear.com/vb/showpost.php?p=269328&postcount=19 (I'm still haunted by this!)
I never really wanted anything in the AK or SKS family...(although I've seen some SWEET pictures here like parallel's and Hollis')
So logic does indicate starting an AR platform shooting 5.56...(and grabbing ammo/parts a bit at a time, while I can also).

Has anyone purchased one in the last couple weeks that recommends an available product and a vendor? I was looking several monthes ago (when I shoulda grabbed one complete for $189 with parts) and I liked the Stag lowers, and understood that they had decent alloy construction. Anyone have a trusted vendor that they know has good lowers available?

Doorkicker, tell me more about the SPR?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 13, 2009)

DoorKicker is the person I refer to as "the god of deal's" motherfucker has always got the hook up.

But if you can find a Rock river or DPMS for under $180, you had better buy it. Shit is getting hard to come by, I ordered a few stripped lowers 3 months ago and still have not gotten them. I am about to order a RR/ DPMS for a Carbine build though.


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## doorkicker (Apr 13, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> So, any advice on the best deal on a stripped lower?
> 
> Has anyone purchased one in the last couple weeks that recommends an available product and a vendor? I was looking several monthes ago (when I shoulda grabbed one complete for $189 with parts) and I liked the Stag lowers, and understood that they had decent alloy construction. Anyone have a trusted vendor that they know has good lowers available?
> 
> Doorkicker, tell me more about the SPR?



RRA stripped lowers from my vendor are going for $180.00 shipped and they are in stock right now.  He usually stocks RRA & DPMS stripped lowers and complete LMT lowers with stock/trigger options.

MK12 MOD0 with Ops Inc 12th MBS supressor
MK12 MOD1
REECE 
*Bottom two are not mine, but I am building both currently* :)










Specs courtesy of our friends over at Wikipedia:
*MK12 MOD0/1 SPR*
_The United States Navy Mark 12 Mod 0/1 Special Purpose Rifle (SPR) is a rifle in service with United States Special Operations Forces in Operation Enduring Freedom and Operation Iraqi Freedom. SPR initially stood for Special Purpose Receiver, but that nomenclature has been replaced as the weapon became a stand-alone weapons system, and not just an add-on upper receiver assembly (part of the proposed SOPMOD upgrades.) The SPR was eventually type classified by the U.S. Navy as the Mk 12, but the U.S. Army also uses this designation.

*Background*
This weapon system, used by Special Operations Forces units of both the U.S. Army and U.S. Navy, is a heavily modified light sniper/designated marksman variation of the AR-15/M16 line of infantry weapons, and is chambered for NATO standard 5.56 x 45 mm caliber ammunition. The SPR concept was originally proposed by Mark Westrom, currently president of Armalite, while working at Rock Island Arsenal. The program was an outgrowth of the desire by both US Army and Navy special operations forces for a rifle with greater effective range than an M4 Carbine but still shorter in length than a standard issue M16A2/A4. The SPR program appears to have grown out of both the SOPMOD Block II program, and the U.S. Navy SEALs 'Recon Rifle' (a 16" flat-topped AR-15/M16 Carbine). The Naval Surface Warfare Center, Crane Division (often referred to as NSWC-Crane or "Crane") essentially expanded on the Recon Rifle, an expansion that some SEALs maintain was a waste of time and resources.

The exact history of the Mk 12 is still in debate, but there appear to be either four or five prime iterations of the weapon, culminating in the most recent Mk 12 Mod 1 version. One progression has four models: SPR Proto 1, SPR Proto 2, Mk 12 Mod 0 and Mk 12 Mod 1. The other progression has five models: SPR, SPR/A, SPR/B, Mk 12 Mod 0, and Mk 12 Mod 1. The specifications in this article follow the second progression.

There is also increasing agreement among observers and small-arms historians that different U.S. military service branches typically deploy different iterations of the SPR. Available evidence, including both U.S. Department of Defense (DOD) photographs and privately-obtained photographs (like the ones shown below), consistently show most US Army SF operators using the Mk 12 Mod 0, while NAVSPECWAR operators and US Army Rangers have been identified as using the Mk 12 Mod 1 version.[1] [2]

The SPR was not well-known to the general public until recently, but it has been featured prominently both in media photos of the Iraq conflict and in interactive video games such as the government-created America's Army: Special Forces and in Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon 2. Civilian copies of the SPR (commonly called "SPR clones") have also become quite popular among shooters and collectors in the U.S., with several reputable builders of AR-15 style rifles making civilian-legal copies of this accurate rifle.

*Specifications*
Specifications
**Upper Receiver:* The majority of the SPR upper receivers were initially supplied by Colt, with others being produced by the Canadian firm Diemaco (now Colt Canada). Colt had been outsourcing parts of its production to Diemaco for several years, then purchased Diemaco in February 2005. There is some debate about whether the upper receivers for the later Mk 12 rifles came solely from Armalite, or were a mix of receivers from Armalite and Colt/Diemaco. All of these upper receivers are flat-topped, but have been seen with either the old-style teardrop forward assist or the newer round style. 
**Lower Receiver:* When the SPR program was still just an upper receiver assembly (and not a complete rifle), Crane assembled all of its prototypes using either M16A1 or M4A1 lower receivers. It is unknown whether this pattern continued as the rifle evolved. There is also some issue about whether, when the Navy type-classified the weapon, Precision Reflex Incorporated (PRI) began assembling the rifles themselves. While a number of trigger options were tried in the end, the Knight's Armament Company (KAC) 2-stage trigger was finally decided upon as the standard. 
**Barrel:* An 18-inch (457 mm) threaded-muzzle match-grade free floating stainless steel heavy barrel with a 1:7 (178 mm) rifling twist ratio is standard for the SPR. The barrels are manufactured by Douglas Barrel with a special contour to maximize accuracy and to minimize weight. An OPS Inc. muzzle brake and collar (to align the OPS Inc. 12th Model Suppressor) is installed with the barrel. These barrels were designed to take advantage of the new Mk 262 cartridge, which uses a 77-grain (5 g) bullet. 
**Buttstock:* SPRs have been seen with M16A1 or M16A2 fixed buttstocks, telescoping M4 buttstocks, and the Crane Enhanced telescoping buttstock. The rifles are compatible with any type of stock system developed for the AR-15/M-16 weapon system. 
**Handguards:* In all cases a free-floating forearm is used, which does not touch the barrel directly. This increases the accuracy of the weapon by removing vibration and pressure exerted on the barrel by the rest of the gun. The first SPRs used PRI Gen I or Gen II carbon-fiber free-float tubes. The SPR/A, SPR/B, and Mk 12 Mod 1 all use the Knights Armament Company (KAC) M4 Match Free-Floating RAS (Rail Adapter System). The Mk 12 Mod 0 uses PRI Gen III free-float tubes. The Gen I and Gen II Freefloat Forearms are combined with the Atlantic Research Marketing Systems (ARMS) #38 SPR MOD Sleeve, while the Gen III Freefloat Forearm, due to its it larger barrel nut, only works with the ARMS #38 SPR PEQ-2-3. 
**Sights:* The original SPR used an early PRI flip-up front sight with an elevation dial, which has since been discontinued. The Mk 12 Mod 0 uses the current PRI flip-up front sight. The SPR/A, SPR/B, and Mk 12 Mod 1 use the KAC rail foreend flip-up front sight. The SPR and Mk 12 Mod 0 use the ARMS #40 flip up rear sight. The rest of the models use the KAC 600 meter flip up rear. 
**Optics:* Due to the relative modularity of the system, optics (as well as almost everything else) can be mounted according to the operator's wishes. However, SPRs are most often seen with a 3.5–10×40 mm Leupold LR M3 (SPR/A), a 2.5–9×36 mm TS-30 (SPR/B), or a 3–9×36 mm TS-30 A2 (Mk 12 Mod 0/1) Mid Range/Tactical Illuminated Reticle Dayscope (civilian versions are known as the Leupold Mark 4 MR/T 3–9×36). Night vision devices can also be attached. These scopes usually come with flip open dust covers and a honeycomb anti-glare anti-reflection device (ARD). Given Nightforce Optics' recent NAVSPECWAR contract, it is believed that many NAVSPECWAR issued SPRs will use the Nightforce 2.5-10x24 NXS scope.[3] 
**Mounts:* As mentioned before, a long accessory rail, called a SWAN Sleeve (ARMS SPR MOD or ARMS #38 SPR PEQ-2-3), manufactured by ARMS, is installed, running the length of the rifle. The SPR/A and SPR/B both used the KAC M4 Match FF RAS. Two ARMS #22 Throwlever 30 mm steel rings are used to mount the dayscope. The SPR/A, SPR/B, and Mk 12 Mod 1 use ARMS #22 high rings, while due to the increased height from the SWAN Sleeve, the SPR and Mk 12 Mod 0 use ARMS #22 medium rings. An under-the-handguard ARMS #32 Throwlever mount is used to mount the Harris bipod (the ARMS #42 Throwlever mount is used to mount the Versa-Pod); this features a quick release action. 
**Bipod: *Originally Versa-Pods (a cheaper Chinese-made copy of the relatively expensive Parker-Hale swivel bipod) were used, but were taken off the system after the initial SPR. Currently, a Harris swivel model bipod is typically used with the SPR, and is sometimes seen with a KMW Pod-Loc tension adjustment device. As mentioned above, the bipod is mounted via a ARMS #32 throwlever device attached to the bottom rail of the rifle's forearm. The ARMS mount is used on both the Mod 0 and Mod 1. 
**Suppressor:* The OPS Inc. 12th Model SPR Muzzle Brake Suppressor (MBS) threads directly onto the OPS Inc. muzzle brake and uses the collar to stay centered. 
**Ammunition:* The SPR is not used to fire standard issue 5.56 x 45 mm NATO M855 ball or M856 tracer ammunition, and especially not M193 ball ammunition. Due to the limits in terminal performance and relatively poor accuracy of the 62-grain (4 g) M855 ball, the Mk 262 Open Tip Match (OTM) round was developed as a more accurate round for the SPR, and manufactured by Black Hills Ammunition. The first production batches were designated Mk 262 Mod 0 and used a Sierra Bullets MatchKing 77-grain (5 g) Hollow Point Boat Tail (HPBT) bullet without a cannelure (crimping groove). Black Hills then approached the Nosler bullet manufacturing company, who made a similar 77 gr (5.0 g) OTM bullet, and Nosler agreed to supply cannelured bullets to Black Hills. The newer load was designated Mk 262 Mod 1. Recently, Sierra agreed to add a minimal crimp to their bullet, and this has since replaced the Nosler bullet in the current versions of Mk 262 Mod 1. _

*SEAL Recon Rifle - Reece (prononced like Recky)*
_Built in-house by U.S. Navy SEAL Team armorers, and later by the Naval Surface Warfare Center, Crane Division (often referred to as NSWC-Crane or "Crane"), the SEAL Recon Rifle was developed to provide SEAL snipers with a portable, lightweight system with greater lethality than a standard M4 carbine. The SEAL Recon Rifle is sometimes referred to as the "Recce Rifle".

When production of this rifle was turned over to NSWC-Crane, U.S. Army funding and concepts were apparently incorporated into the program (there is some confusion as to the exact events). The SEAL Teams were apparently disappointed with the performance of the resulting Mk 12 Special Purpose Rifle (SPR), and convinced the program managers at Crane to return to the original specifications. Production of "Recon Rifles" on the original pattern is progressing now according to several sources.

*Specifications*
These weapons were initially built in-house with the only specifications being the ability to shoot any 5.56 x 45 mm cartridge in inventory (at the time this included the first iterations of the 77-grain (5 g) Mk 262 Mod 0 cartridge), and that the weapon have a barrel 16 inches (406 mm) in length.

The barrel blanks are made by Lilja Precision and then chambered by Compass Lake. They have a 1:8 in (203 mm) twist and are stainless steel. They have a unique heavy barrel profile, starting with 0.980 in (25 mm) in diameter for the first 2.60 in (66 mm) of length, then narrowing down to 0.850 (22 mm) in diameter, 0.750 in (19 mm) in diameter underneath the front sight block, and 0.725 in (18 mm) in diameter to the muzzle. The barrels have the Knight's Armament Company - KAC QD (Quick Detach) flash hider, allowing the mounting of KAC's QD sound suppressor. A Mid-length gas system is used. These barrels were mated to flat top upper receivers, and retained the fixed front sight/gas block assembly, which would seem to imply that the original iterations were probably just rebarreled M4/A1 type carbines in SEAL inventory.

Beyond this, exact specifications vary. Since they were built in house, they seem to have been accessorized to personal preferences, with fixed (A1 and A2 styles) and retractable butt-stocks. (Original 4-point and improved 6-point Colt stocks, and the Crane/SOCOM/LMT stock are all in use.) Recon rifles built by Crane are reportedly all fitted with a free-float handguard system, the most popular being the Knight's Armament Co. M4 Match RAS and the LaRue free-float handguards in the longer lengths (which protect the barrel and provide more area to mount tactical accessories). Some operators reportedly use various back-up iron sights (BUISs) by Knight's, ARMS Inc, and Troy Industries, while others do not. The range of optics used on Recon rifles is wide, with various models by Trijicon (like ACOG TA01, TA31F), Leupold (TS-30A1, TS-30A2), and NightForce in use.

Due to the secretive nature of the end-users, first-hand information and data regarding the Recon rifles seems to be quite rare. How much these specifications have changed with regards to Crane's "production" weapons is unknown._

*All three of these rifles will take you out to 700> accuratly, but they are match rifles and are not cheap builds if done to spec.  However, you can substitute most parts with similiar considerably cheaper parts.  The Reece would probably be cheapest & easiest to build with similiar part substitutes.*


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## arizonaguide (Apr 13, 2009)

Doorkicker, awsome posts! :)
Between you and JAB and Hollis, I fear no AR Build challenge!!!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 13, 2009)

I prefer the SDM-R based on my experience and training.

*Specifications*

·	Upper and lower receivers: The rifles are produced by the Army Marksmanship Unit (AMU) at Fort Benning, Georgia using either new semi-automatic ArmaLite lower receivers or existing Army M16A2 or A4 lower receivers previously supplied by either Colt or Fabrique Nationale. All rifles are equipped with a fixed A2 stock and a Knight's Armament Company 2-stage match grade trigger capable of only semi-automatic fire. The upper receivers are flat-top style, but unlike the SAM-R and SPR, they do not have extended feed ramps.

·	Barrel: The 1:7 twist, 20-inch barrel from the M16A2 and A4 has been replaced with a stainless steel Douglas 1:8 twist, 20-inch barrel, with 12 flutes cut into the barrel to reduce weight. The front sight block is installed with 4 set screws instead of two taper pins. The SDM-R retains the A2-style flash hider.

·	Sights and optics: The issued optic is a 4x32 Advanced Combat Optical Gunsight (ACOG) (models TA31F, TA01, TA01B, or TA01NSN). A Matech Industries 600-meter backup iron sight is also used. 

·	Handguard: Daniel Defense M4 Rail 12.0 handguard, with an octagonal steel collar locking it to the upper receiver. The Daniel Defense handguard provides a free-floating MIL-STD-1913 rail forend.

·	Bipod: A Harris S-L bipod attached to an ARMS #17 throw-lever rail mount is mounted to the underside of the handguard. Since the handguard is free-floating, it does not come into contact with the barrel, and any pressure from the bipod on the handguard will not deflect the barrel. 

*Variants*

The 82nd Airborne Division examined an alternate version, based on the M4 Carbine. The barrel was to have been an 18-inch (460 mm) long fluted Douglas barrel with 1:8 twist. A mid-length gas system was to be used, along with the Daniel Defense M4Rail 9.0 handguard. This effort never went beyond the staffing process.


The same as DK posted, most of the parts can be substituted for less expensive parts. The SDM-R can be built under $1,000 (w/o optic) and I have been accurate (1.3 MOA) at 1000 yards with 80gr ammo in an AMU SDM-R. However, in any form of a 5.56 rifle you are probably not going to achieve kills past 650-700 yards due to ballistics.


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## arizonaguide (Apr 13, 2009)

Thanks JAB! I'm looking forward to the "adventure" of the build!
The 1911 is a project gun also, so this (and classes) should keep me out of mischief and learning lots for the summer.
:cool:


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## koz (Apr 13, 2009)

Brownell's has both stripped and completed lowers from CMMG.  You should get a discount from them since you work at a gun store - if you don't PM me.  It's under $130.  I've built several on CMMG and never had a problem.  

Fulton Armory has lower parts kits as of last week.  I highly recommend a Geissele DMR trigger.  IMO hardest thing to find is a good (or any) barrel and BCG.  

I'm a big fan of Larue rails and mounts.


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## arizonaguide (Apr 13, 2009)

Thanks KOZ, Brownell's is very reputable also.
That sounds like the plan! I'll order this Friday.
:cool:


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