# Any serious Pool players on here?



## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 22, 2016)

So I was pretty serious about it as a kid growing up, had a bar table in the garage as a kid and spent almost all my extra time in a billiards room. Got fairly good, played a lot 8 ball, 9 ball and 3 ball for money and in local tournaments. Never gave it up, but stopped taking it as seriously in my mid/late 20's. Partially due to Army life, family life and just other interest. Here recently I started getting back into it, last month or so. Been going to "Clicks" a big table billiards room and working fundamentals and just putting in practice. I've played three bar table single elimination (no buy) 8 ball tournaments: First tournament I lost the first game by following the 8 on a run out, second tournament I took second place overall taking a righteous beating (I broke dropped 2, miss-cued, dude ran it off), third tournament I won commandingly.

This lil local bar tournament is kinda driving me to want to play more and more. Even thinking about getting into league (most likely APA). The group shooting this tournament are pretty good, and definitely make me keep focus.

I've got several nice McDermott cues, most are 15+ year old. Several are very expensive, but all need new shafts and tips. Not sure if I'm willing to sink the money on that right now, I picked up a cheap Chrystal Leisure cue a few weeks ago, put a medium soft tip on it and have been trying to time it out. Seems to fit my needs for now (basically bar stick, don't care if it gets broke, lost, stolen), but wondering if I should invest in some new equipment or repair my old stuff. If I do start shooting league, it will be inevitable, but honestly I've been a lift removed for a few years, and wondering if anyone had any advice or recommend product lines. I'm. No fool to the cost's, I've priced out new shafts and tips at around $230 a cue on my McDermott's, but I'm not too sure I'm willing to invest to that end right now.

What I really would like is a nice break/jump cue around 18oz with quality breaking tip, and a nice playing cue around 20oz, 12-13mm tapper nice balance, no wraps, quality medium/soft tip. I'm more of a traditional style cue guy, but as of right now price dictated.

Also, if anyone on here is in the San Antonio area, and wants to link up for a few game's, shoot me a PM.


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## metalmom (Mar 22, 2016)

I do play pool-hate snooker though. Apparently from all you said-I am no where close to you. Won a few bucks and only do call shots.Far from a pro-but have worked on my bank shots for yrs.Dont even own my own cue. I love pool. Even if Ilived close to you would order you about 6 B52s before we played.lol. Seriously-its phenom you are so good at it.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 22, 2016)

I'm not pro, nor have I've ever been at a pro level. Local tournaments and pot games are about as good as I've ever gotten. But I've gotta a little bit of drive to get involved again.


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## Ranger Psych (Mar 22, 2016)

@compforce    DING DING 

The only time I use pool cue's is as an implement of conducting corrective training on unruly bargoing derps


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 23, 2016)

Ranger Psych said:


> @compforce    DING DING
> 
> The only time I use pool cue's is as an implement of conducting corrective training on unruly bargoing derps



Good to know.


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## compforce (Mar 23, 2016)

Ranger Psych said:


> @compforce    DING DING
> 
> The only time I use pool cue's is as an implement of conducting corrective training on unruly bargoing derps



hey!  Now  I can't hustle him.. 

I played as a regional pro (Florida Pro Tour/Seminole Tour) for 12 years and then was one of the first Touring Pros on the _edit: typo here, not APA,_ UPA (the National Tour) The United States Professional Poolplayers Association (UPA).  I never made it into the big time, but did play a few tournaments.  I was that guy that was better than everyone in the area, but not good enough to move further, solidly at the top of the grey area between semi-pro and pro.  In hustling language I was a shortstop.  On September 11 I was in VA playing the second day of the US Open 9-ball Tournament when the towers went down.  That was the last big tourney I played.  My focus has been elsewhere since.

As far as equipment, I have a Brunswick Gold Crown V table.  I use a 25 year old Meucci as a break cue and McDermott for my playing cue.  When I stopped being serious about it, the tournaments weren't allowing jump cues or shaft jumps, you had to use your playing cue to jump and breaking the cue down was the signal for a forfeit/concession.

McDermott will refurb the base of the cues for $175 and the shafts cost in the range of $95-$200 direct from them depending on model.  You should give them a call.  Tips are all about preference, I still like LePro Medium Hard for the playing cue.  Predator makes some solid shafts if you want to go that route.  They take a little getting used to, but you'll be more accurate once you do. The main thing to look for on the jump/break cue is the tip.  You want a very hard, composite tip.  Keep the break cue light, it's all about technique and speed (you can push a light cue faster than you can push a heavy one).  Predator makes a good jump/break also.


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## Etype (Mar 23, 2016)

I play Marco Polo with my kids, that's the only pool game I'm good at.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 23, 2016)

compforce said:


> hey!  Now  I can't hustle him..
> 
> I played as a regional pro (Florida Pro Tour/Seminole Tour) for 12 years and then was one of the first Touring Pros on the APA (the National Tour).  I never made it into the big time, but did play a few tournaments.  I was that guy that was better than everyone in the area, but not good enough to move further, solidly at the top of the grey area between semi-pro and pro.  In hustling language I was a shortstop.  On September 11 I was in VA playing the second day of the US Open 9-ball Tournament when the towers went down.  That was the last big tourney I played.  My focus has been elsewhere since.
> 
> ...




So you recommend Predator? 

There is a local shop that is a licensed McDermott sales/repair shop. The prices I got from them was under the warranty. Couldn't tell the the tip brands however, I've always just told Pete whatever the best medium soft you have. I appreciate the advice on the Predator line, I'm going to check them out this afternoon.

And no, we ain't playing for money up front, going to have to test the waters with you (Mr. Top of the gray area between semi pro and pro).


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## compforce (Mar 23, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> So you recommend Predator?
> 
> There is a local shop that is a licensed McDermott sales/repair shop. The prices I got from them was under the warranty. Couldn't tell the the tip brands however, I've always just told Pete whatever the best medium soft you have. I appreciate the advice on the Predator line, I'm going to check them out this afternoon.
> 
> And no, we ain't playing for money up front, going to have to test the waters with you (Mr. Top of the gray area between semi pro and pro).



Predator's shafts have been the standard on the tour for at least the last 10-12 years Predator Cues: High Performance Pool Cues, Shafts and Gear.  I only mention their break/jump cue because the shaft and tip are the important parts for those functions.  Ray Martin has a jump cue that is second to none for the way it works (it's not a break cue, just jump), but it's about the ugliest damned thing you ever saw.  Most people won't carry it and opt for a slightly less precise jump in return for a cue that can be used for breaking.  Personally, I think any cue should be able to execute every shot in the game and I scoff at those that think they need a different cue for everything.  I use the meucci for breaking because I have a very hard break.  Occasionally, I'll lose a shaft on the break, once I lost two in a row (that sucked).  Also I have a very hard tip on it so I get the right impact for the break.  (you do know a good break is technically a jump shot, right?).  My case has two butts, four shafts, some Master chalk and a shaper (Willards).  That's all I need...

Warranty?  If it's warranty, there shouldn't be any charge except the tip replacement, $20 max.  Lifetime Pool Cue Warranty | McDermott Cues

Talk to the factory...  Repairs, Refurbishing, Warranty and Lifetime Maintenance | McDermott Cue  Prices are at the bottom.  A complete refurb is $250 for the entire cue including shaft.

As far as playing, I don't play for money, just a tourney player.  I'm nowhere near that level now.  My eyes are gone and I don't put in 4-6 hours of practice and 4 hours of playing a day like I did back then.


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## Centermass (Mar 23, 2016)

When I was a kid, my dad would take me along to a pool hall he managed p/t. Technically, being under 18, by law, I wasn't allowed to be there, but, as long as I didn't play during operating hours, I just stayed out of site and didn't get in the way of things. He (My Dad) was a master on the table when it came to either snooker or 9 ball. 

One of the benefits I fondly remember to this day was getting to watch the likes of Luther Lassiter, Willy Masconi and a few other hi profile names I can't remember, stroke the cue. A couple of years later, he had a p/t job during the summer break as a teacher, working in a mill shop, making cabinets. He got his hand caught in a mill and the automatic feed fed it straight into the blades. He had major surgery to save what they could, but his days of playing were over. I always hated that it happened as it was a game he loved as much as he did me and my family.


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 24, 2016)

When I went through USAF "Medical Basis", a classmate and I held the table in Duffy's Tavern (O-Club) for the entire two weeks. He was a Veteranarian from MO,  and we could both run the table with 8 Ball.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 25, 2016)

Well I dominated the hell out of the tournament again last night. Think I'm going to need to find a new spot though, doesn't seem like I'm getting a few individuals best game. Not sure what that's about, got in their head or just thought they were better. Either way bad form to keep winning the same tournament every week. 

I went and looked at a few Predator cues, holy shit those cue's are expensive. I didn't see one that was under $1k and most we're $2500-$3k range. So I'm having new shafts and tips put on my McDermott's. lol I think if I stick with the seriousness until next year, I might look at dropping that kinda money, but damn.


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 25, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Well I dominated the hell out of the tournament again last night. Think I'm going to need to find a new spot though, doesn't seem like I'm getting a few individuals best game. Not sure what that's about, got in their head or just thought they were better. Either way bad form to keep winning the same tournament every week.
> 
> I went and looked at a few Predator cues, holy shit those cue's are expensive. I didn't see one that was under $1k and most we're $2500-$3k range. So I'm having new shafts and tips put on my McDermott's. lol I think if I stick with the seriousness until next year, I might look at dropping that kinda money, but damn.



I have a pool table in the house, slate bottom, pocket nets with no ball return. I spent a small amount on some of the cues. I got three with small balls in the base, that light up when you hit the ball, grand kids love that. I set a limit of just $100 + on my cue, and that's about it. The table at Duffy's was a 3/4 sized table, and I had just left a place with full sized professional grade tables bought by the State on NY at one of their hospitals. That change to the smaller 3/4 size table just made it so easy to play a softer game for positioning up to three shots. The others were just hammering away at the balls, and for most, that was their goal, slam bang. It was funny to watch them.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 25, 2016)

You know for a cue to leave in the truck, I actually like this 21oz Chrystal Leisure. I spent about $80 on it and another $30 on the tip. It's shooting good for the bar tables. However, on the big tables I'm inconsistent with it on longer shot's, close up no issues, I'm just not getting the control out of it at distance. My brother noticed the same thing, and his 20oz Lucasi wasn't giving me or him the same issues.

But I dropped off two of my McDermott's yesterday afternoon and should have them back next week. Pretty excited actually.


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 26, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> You know for a cue to leave in the truck, I actually like this 21oz Chrystal Leisure. I spent about $80 on it and another $30 on the tip. It's shooting good for the bar tables. However, on the big tables I'm inconsistent with it on longer shot's, close up no issues, I'm just not getting the control out of it at distance. My brother noticed the same thing, and his 20oz Lucasi wasn't giving me or him the same issues.
> 
> But I dropped off two of my McDermott's yesterday afternoon and should have them back next week. Pretty excited actually.



Where is your aiming point, and what are you looking at when you stroke into the cue ball?


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## compforce (Mar 26, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> However, on the big tables I'm inconsistent with it on longer shot's, close up no issues, I'm just not getting the control out of it at distance. My brother noticed the same thing, and his 20oz Lucasi wasn't giving me or him the same issues.



What you're describing is cue ball deflection.  the more wiggle in the shaft, the more it throws the cue ball to one side or the other.  If you put left english (hit left of the center on the cue), even a tiny bit, the cue ball squirts out to the right.  It's exactly why you want better cues, shafts and tips, less deflection or at least more predictable deflection.  The predators I pointed you to are specifically designed to be "zero deflection" (which is a misnomer, they still deflect, just in a way that, once your point of aim is adjusted for the cue, you aren't really affected by it as much).  BTW, if you hit those same shots softer, the spin will cause the cue ball to curve back into the point of aim.  I've deliberately used that type of deflection and the curve (swerve) to get around a ball that was just barely in the way.  Here's a good explanational video:


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 26, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Where is your aiming point, and what are you looking at when you stroke into the cue ball?



Once I line up my shot I'm 100% focused on my strike point on the cue ball. Basically line up the shot, go through my mental check list getting into position, focus on my strike point on the cue ball, attempt to execute the stroke with follow through.



compforce said:


> What you're describing is cue ball deflection.  the more wiggle in the shaft, the more it throws the cue ball to one side or the other.  If you put left english (hit left of the center on the cue), even a tiny bit, the cue ball squirts out to the right.  It's exactly why you want better cues, shafts and tips, less deflection or at least more predictable deflection.  The predators I pointed you to are specifically designed to be "zero deflection" (which is a misnomer, they still deflect, just in a way that, once your point of aim is adjusted for the cue, you aren't really affected by it as much).  BTW, if you hit those same shots softer, the spin will cause the cue ball to curve back into the point of aim.  I've deliberately used that type of deflection and the curve (swerve) to get around a ball that was just barely in the way.  Here's a good explanational video:



Thanks bro, I wasn't aware of that (pool cue deflection), I'm really glad I started this thread. 

Do you have any "development style" books you recommend. I've noticed with a lot of other things,I tend to learn more by reading/thinking/trying vs attempting to copy a demonstration in person or video.


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## compforce (Mar 26, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Do you have any "development style" books you recommend. I've noticed with a lot of other things,I tend to learn more by reading/thinking/trying vs attempting to copy a demonstration in person or video.



The very first book in any pool player's library (if they want to get serious about it) should be Ray Martin's "99 Critical Shots in Pool"  http://smile.amazon.com/99-Critical...278&sr=1-1&keywords=99+critical+shots+of+pool

Next I would probably get into the mechanics of the game... with The Science of Pocket Billiards: Jack H. Koehler: 9780962289026: Amazon.com: Books

A close second to Koehler is Byrne's books  This is both his basic and advanced books rolled into one.
http://smile.amazon.com/Byrnes-Comp...rne's+new+standard+book+of+pool+and+billiards





Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Once I line up my shot I'm 100% focused on my strike point on the cue ball. Basically line up the shot, go through my mental check list getting into position, focus on my strike point on the cue ball, attempt to execute the stroke with follow through.



Exactly where most people make the same mistake...   First, you have to get a consistent stroke.  You should be able to line up on the ball, close your eyes and make the shot.  Some of the advanced marksmen on the site will recognize this as the same "natural point of aim" that you use behind a scope.  Once you get a consistent stroke, you line up the shot the same way you do now and then shift your eyes to focus on the target...exactly the opposite of shooting a pistol.  Remember to do all your thinking BEFORE you get down on the shot.  At that point all you want to have to focus on is making the ball with the correct amount of power to get your leave.  Once I know your skill level and that you've got these basics down, I'll let you in on a pro secret about leaving the cue that will make the whole exercise that much easier.  I'm not knocking your game, these are things that most people don't know/practice and it limits them immensely.  Most players, even good ones, have to unlearn all their bad habits and start over if they want to get _really_ good.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 26, 2016)

compforce said:


> The very first book in any pool player's library (if they want to get serious about it) should be Ray Martin's "99 Critical Shots in Pool"  The 99 Critical Shots in Pool: Everything You Need to Know to Learn and Master the Game (Other): Ray Martin, Inc. IMGS, Estate of Rosser Reeves: 9780812922417: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> Next I would probably get into the mechanics of the game... with The Science of Pocket Billiards: Jack H. Koehler: 9780962289026: Amazon.com: Books
> 
> ...


 

I'm not taking it as "knocking my game" at all, I actually really appreciate it. I've never been taught, just spent hours upon hours and over time gotten better. Like I said earlier, I've never been on anything close to your level, and the last guy that I played who said he was "Pro" he never actually let me shoot a ball against him as he just kept breaking and running it off (obviously made a long lasting point). 

I want to get better, and right now is probably the best time for me to learn what right is. So don't hold back at all, I appreciate you taking the time.


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 26, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Once I line up my shot I'm 100% focused on my strike point on the cue ball. Basically line up the shot, go through my mental check list getting into position, focus on my strike point on the cue ball, attempt to execute the stroke with follow through.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



The vid from @compforce is one of the best I've seen in a long time.

Once I have determined where I am going to impact the cue ball, considering what if any english I want, and power of the stroke, I move my focus the the point I want the cue ball to impact the object ball, I draw a line through the cue ball to the object ball.. That is to say, I no longer look at the cueball. It works for me 90% of the time. I do take time in prepping my stroke to the cue ball quite a bit, and by the time I change my focus to the object ball, I always hit the cueball exactly where I intended. My accuracy has increased a good 50% from focusing only on the cue ball. YMMV.

It has taken be years of practice to be able to do this with consistency, but the object ball goes exactly where I want, as does the cue ball. I don't power shoot, but "control stroke" the cue as much as I can. I can pretty well set up my next two to three shots, and sort of amble around the table.

Play well my friend. Adding beer, Whiskey or your pick, reduces my accuracy a good 20-30%


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## compforce (Mar 26, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I'm not taking it as "knocking my game" at all, I actually really appreciate it. I've never been taught, just spent hours upon hours and over time gotten better. Like I said earlier, I've never been on anything close to your level, and the last guy that I played who said he was "Pro" he never actually let me shoot a ball against him as he just kept breaking and running it off (obviously made a long lasting point).
> 
> I want to get better, and right now is probably the best time for me to learn what right is. So don't hold back at all, I appreciate you taking the time.



OK, here comes my version of the books...  Remember you asked for it  

Practice and playing are two different things.  If you're playing a game against another player, it doesn't count as practice.  I'll give you the drills to do and you report back when you've accomplished the task.  I'll keep building on them as we go.  Let's start with stroke. Normally I'd start with stance, but it's tough to do over the internet.  I'll just describe a good stance for you and then give you a practice drill.  Once you get 99 critical shots, Ray does a good job of explaining the stance and has pictures.  The stance will be awkward at first, expecially if you have any bad habits that need fixing.

Stance:  Feet shoulder width apart, dominant foot (the foot on the same side as the hand at the butt of the cue) back so your feet are at about a 45 degree angle and you're comfortably balanced without effort.  Your non-dominant foot should be pointing at the target.  You should be bent at the waist with your back straight and the eye on the same side as your dominant hand 2-3" above the cue.  The closer to the cue the better.  Your dominant hand should be on the wrap of the cue.  Your other hand, the bridge hand, should be in a bridge, preferably a closed bridge (your finger over the top of the cue and touching the first knuckle of your middle finger).  Your bridge hand should have the entire heel of your palm touching the table for stability. your dominant arm should have the back of the arm parallel to the ground.  The forearm should be hanging with no effort.  The hand should be gripping the wrap very loosely, almost loose enough for the cue to slide.  The back of the hand, the wrist and your forearm should form a straight line (don't bend the wrist).  When you are taking warm up strokes and for the shot, the only muscles that engage are the triceps.  Everything else should be relaxed and unused. The cue should be parallel to the floor.  Even when you are forced to raise or lower the butt, it will still be within 5 degrees of parallel.  When you are taking warm up strokes, they should be EXACTLY the same as you plan to stroke the shot, but not touch the cue ball.  Same speed, same muscles, same everything.  When you shoot the only difference should be that you follow through in a straight line.  Do not raise the cue, don't stand up, just follow through and stay there until either the shot is over or you're forced to move to keep from making an illegal contact with a ball.  Every shot you take, with very few exceptions, will be exactly the same with only the speed varying.  Pool is about consistency.  The more variables you can remove, the more consistent you will be.

Whenever you are getting ready to shoot, have a pre-gameday routine of checking the shaft of the cue for dings, tackiness and such, check the tip to make sure it doesn't have flat spots.  Make sure the tip hasn't mushroomed out.  Fix any of these issues you find.  For tackiness on the shaft, use a green pad to smooth it, do NOT use that white chalk on it, it will make things worse in the long run.  Make sure you have Master chalk with you.  Don't use any other brand, it makes a difference.  Also, only use the blue chalk.  The color actually matters.  You won't believe me on this until you take your finger and rub it into a couple of pieces of chalk and feel the difference.

When you get to where you are going to shoot,  check the table for level.  You can do this pretty easy by holding a ball about 3-4" above the rail (the point of the rail, not the wood) and dropping it.  The rail will make the ball roll straight down the table and it should roll straight back up.  Check it on all 6 rails (there are two end rails and four side rails).  If it looks reasonably straight, then check for any debris on the table.  The smallest piece of lint can change the shot.  Brush it off if necessary.  The cloth should be bright green and not have any holes in it.  All those little white circular marks are caused by people shooting too hard.

Here's your first drill.  Go to the drugstore or staples and get a package of those little round paper folder markers something like these:  13mm Round Circle Color Code Dot Stickers Sticky Adhesive Labels Red 15 Sheet | eBay  We'll be using them a LOT.

Once you have those, you're ready to go.  On the table, find the headstring (that's the "line" you put the cue behind in 8 ball).  Find the center of it, be exact.  You want the cue on the head spot, which is not usually marked.  It's in the same place that the top ball of the rack goes on, just on the other end of the table.  Put a round sticker that you bought on the head spot.  Find the middle diamond on the foot rail (that's the short rail where you stand to rack).  If you can't see it from your shooting position, use one of those round stickers to mark it under the rail, NOT on top of the rail, it will screw you up.  There are a couple of parts to this drill.  First, line the shot up but don't shoot it.  Close your eyes and count to 5 slowly.  Open them.  You should still be pointed directly at the target.  If not, stand all the way up, move your feet and get back down again.  Whenever you adjust, you always stand all the way up and move your feet, never lean to adjust.  Repeat this until you open your eyes and are still aimed at the right place.  This is how it should look for every normal shot.  Walk away from the table, come back and repeat until you get it right most of the time.

Next, hitting the cue ball in the center, shoot at the center diamond.  The cue ball should bounce straight back and make contact with the tip of the cue.  The speed should be just hard enough to get the cue back to the tip.  Don't overpower it.  BTW, did I mention that all of these drills will require a level table?  Once you can do that 8 out of ten times in a row, you're ready for part three.

Next, same shot.  But this time when you line it up, you'll close your eyes.  Do a slow 5 count and then open them.  See if you are still pointed at the same place just like you did in the first part.  if not, adjust.  repeat until it's right.  Now that your alignment is right, close your eyes and shoot the shot, keep your eyes closed until the cue returns and hits the tip (or misses).  Repeat this until you are hitting the tip 6 or 7 out of 10.

It'll take you several hours a day for several days to get this right.  Don't burn out,  if you get tired, take a break and either play a couple of games against someone, have a beer or just throw the balls out on the table and shoot them in.  When you get your focus back, get back at it.  This particular drill is THE foundation for everything else we'll be talking about.  You need to get this one down or none of the others will improve your game.  I know it seems really tedious, what we're doing is getting your stance right and then building muscle memory of a good stroke.

Don't forget to pick up your stickers at the end of practice...  Let me know if you aren't hitting the tip and you're consistently off to one side or the other.  Consistent misses mean there's something mechanically wrong.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 26, 2016)

@compforce, when you say the blue masters chalk, are talking the dark blue or the light blue (almost a cross of baby blue and sea green)? Its really soft powdery stuff.


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## compforce (Mar 26, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> @compforce, when you say the blue masters chalk, are talking the dark blue or the light blue (almost a cross of baby blue and sea green)? Its really soft powdery stuff.



http://smile.amazon.com/Master®-Billiard-Chalk-Pieces-BLUE/dp/B00CZ6NXYC/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1459043293&sr=8-1&keywords=master+chalk

ignore this::::....Sky Blue (it should be the original image) .  My monitor made it look right


Blue, it's the last image,


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 27, 2016)

So I spent a few hours on a big table tonight. Did what you told me @compforce and I was around every third stroke back on the tip, the rest were just slightly to the right, most catching the edge of the tip and down the right side of the cue. Another gentleman came up after watching me for about an hour and gave me a few pointers. Had me place a empty beer bottle on the table and practice my stroke into the bottle opening (not striking the sides of the opening. I did that for about 20 minutes and got bored and tried some draw drills. Shooting a row off balls into the corner pockets from the third diamond and drawing the cue ball back to behind the head string. I was trying aiming on the objective ball as well as a few time eyes closed. It's going to take some practice for sure as I was about 60% and I'm normally 100% on that drill. I'm chalking that up to changing my stroke and aiming point. Kinda of like shooting, try something different and shot group opens up until you get it ingrained.

I'll put in some more practice tomorrow evening and report back. I really appreciate the advice from both you and @Red Flag 1.


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## Marine0311 (Mar 27, 2016)

Thanks for all the intel @compforce


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## compforce (Mar 28, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> So I spent a few hours on a big table tonight. Did what you told me @compforce and I was around every third stroke back on the tip, the rest were just slightly to the right, most catching the edge of the tip and down the right side of the cue. Another gentleman came up after watching me for about an hour and gave me a few pointers. Had me place a empty beer bottle on the table and practice my stroke into the bottle opening (not striking the sides of the opening. I did that for about 20 minutes and got bored and tried some draw drills. Shooting a row off balls into the corner pockets from the third diamond and drawing the cue ball back to behind the head string. I was trying aiming on the objective ball as well as a few time eyes closed. It's going to take some practice for sure as I was about 60% and I'm normally 100% on that drill. I'm chalking that up to changing my stroke and aiming point. Kinda of like shooting, try something different and shot group opens up until you get it ingrained.
> 
> I'll put in some more practice tomorrow evening and report back. I really appreciate the advice from both you and @Red Flag 1.




To the right means that you are pulling your arm in towards your body on the stroke (or the table is leaning that way).  Forget the bottle drill.  It only works for a perfectly straight stroke.  Half the pros I know would send the bottle over the edge of the table.  We all have quirks in our strokes that we've adjusted for over the years.  Focus on the drill at hand.  You lost focus when the guy had you do the bottle thing and got bored and went to a drill that we'll do weeks from now.  Be polite, but firm when you are practicing.  A TON of people are going to try to give you advice.  Most of that advice will give you bad habits that may seem to make you better at first, but will take a lot of work to get rid of down the road. 

Don't listen to Cartman...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 5, 2016)

So I've been putting the time in, got a bit frustrated not getting the results I wanted. But after I picked up my McDermott's, things got a lot better. I'm 10/10 eyes open and about 7-8 out of 10 cue eye's closed. Had to make adjustments to my stance and where I was grabing the cue (basically figure out that natural point of aim). Definitely had to slow my stroke down and be alot softer.


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## compforce (Apr 5, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> So I've been putting the time in, got a bit frustrated not getting the results I wanted. But after I picked up my McDermott's, things got a lot better. I'm 10/10 eyes open and about 7-8 out of 10 cue eye's closed. Had to make adjustments to my stance and where I was grabing the cue (basically figure out that natural point of aim). Definitely had to slow my stroke down and be alot softer.



Fantastic!  So that drill is now the very first thing you do every time you practice...   No matter what other drills you are doing, that one comes first to make sure your stance is correct and fix any flaws.  You'll be doing that one pretty much forever...  Learn to love it    Well done!

Here's the next one, referring to the following drawing



This is the first drill with english (spin).  You'll be striking the cue ball one tip off-center.  In other words, the center of the tip should strike the cue ball about one tip off center.  They sell cue balls with this drawn out if you think you need one, but I'd say just eyeball it.  You'll hit with a natural stroke, not too soft, not too hard.  Here's what it means...

Start with the cue ball in the same place as the last drill.  Same aimpoint as before.  Both pure top and pure draw should do the same thing as the last drill, come straight back at you and hit the tip (green line).  If you hit the draw shot too soft, it may swerve on you,  you may need to hit that one a bit harder to get the right result.

The other lines are:
Top Right = Orange/brown line  (diamond on your side of the side pocket)
Right = Purple/magenta line  (side pocket, cue should fall in)
Bottom Right = Blue line (diamond on other side of the side pocket)

same thing for the other direction, top left = diamond on your side of the pocket, et. al.

Note that it hits the rail in front of the diamond, not straight into the diamond.  Put one of those round stickers at each spot to make it easier to see if you did it right.

Again, we're looking for repeatable results.  8 hits out of 10 of each.  BTW, that's a total of 48 shots out of 60 to move on...  You WILL get frustrated at this one.  When it happens, take a break...  Finish this one and we may just put another ball on the table  

Don't forget to start out with the first drill.  If your stance or stroke develop bad habits, this drill is nearly impossible.

ETA: if you feel you must get a training cue ball, this is the one to get:  Amazon.com : CueSight Precision Training Ball : Rugby Balls : Sports & Outdoors

PPS: I'd normally have you doing speed drills now to get the feel for the right speed, but you'll lose your mind trying to get it right, especially if every table has different conditions/speed.  We'll deal with speed in the next drill instead.


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## compforce (Apr 11, 2016)

OK, so it's been about a year and a half since I last picked up the cue (other than a memorial tournament I played, badly, last July).  You got me interested again and I think I'm going to make another run at it.  That means I'll be doing all of the same drills you will.  For me, I always record my practice sessions so I can go back and see what I am doing and work to fix any flaws.

If you're interested, I made a youtube channel that I'll post videos to so you can see what I am doing and to use to show the drills and such.  Here's a highlight reel from yesterday's practice...  ignore the sound, I'm using new editing software and it keeps starting the music over at the beginning of each "scene".


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 11, 2016)

That 1 ball around table to sink the 9 was awesome.

I haven't tried the new English drill's yet, been sorta busy, but I'm planning to go tonight and a few times this week. I'll report back with the results.


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## compforce (Apr 11, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> That 1 ball around table to sink the 9 was awesome.


The truth behind that shot is that it was extremely low percentage.  The shot I played was to take the 1 off the 9 and leave it safe.  (if you ignore the 9 and look at the leave, you'll see what I mean).  The 9 just happened to fall in, which made it youtube worthy.  Technically the backward cut on the 5 at 6:03 was much more difficult with the english needed to leave the 6.



> I haven't tried the new English drill's yet, been sorta busy, but I'm planning to go tonight and a few times this week. I'll report back with the results.



The thing to remember with that drill is that everyone's english is a little different.  The description I gave you is textbook.  Real world, it'll be a different place for everyone.  The key is consistency.  I don't care if the cue actually hits the spot in front of the diamond every time, I'm more interested in the cue hitting the SAME spot every time.  You'll adjust naturally to your own english.  As an example, for most people, from the center of the corner pocket through the far middle diamond on the side rail with english away from the side you're aiming will go three rails in the corner.  For me it's a full diamond closer because my spin is more extreme, but I can hit that shot better than 90% because my english is consistently extreme (and I practice that shot).


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## Red Flag 1 (Apr 11, 2016)

This is a great thread. I don't have the time I'd like to have to go through the practice drills. I believe that my game would be tighter than it has been. Thanks for the links, and the pointers @compforce .


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 13, 2016)

So I've been practicing the English drills, its pretty consistent on bottom/center right. Top right is very inconsistent, I'm thinking its the speed or maybe the angle. On the left side I'm not getting any consistent results at all, actually its hitting the center diamond and going back toward the head string on the left side, some times catch the side cushion but sometimes catch the back cushion.  I ordered that training cue ball today, but I have to admit I'm a bit stumped by this. I'm lining up, getting the strike point lined up,eyes focusing on the center diamond/dot, and mentally focusing on my stroke, but its not coming together at all. I've only done the drill twice now for a couple hours. Taking tonight off (taking the family out for dinner and live music), but I'll be after it again tomorrow.


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## compforce (Apr 13, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> So I've been practicing the English drills, its pretty consistent on bottom/center right. Top right is very inconsistent, I'm thinking its the speed or maybe the angle. On the left side I'm not getting any consistent results at all, actually its hitting the center diamond and going back toward the head string on the left side, some times catch the side cushion but sometimes catch the back cushion.  I ordered that training cue ball today, but I have to admit I'm a bit stumped by this. I'm lining up, getting the strike point lined up,eyes focusing on the center diamond/dot, and mentally focusing on my stroke, but its not coming together at all. I've only done the drill twice now for a couple hours. Taking tonight off (taking the family out for dinner and live music), but I'll be after it again tomorrow.



That combination usually means that you are pushing the cue to the right by pulling your back hand into your body when you stroke.  The only muscle that should be engaged when you stroke is your tricep.  Everything else needs to hang loose.  The only joint that moves on the stroke is the elbow.  Sometimes I catch myself dropping the upper arm at the end of the stroke (that's why I take video).  Both are flaws in the stroke that affect the english.  Pretend your elbow is pinned in place and you can only swing the arm back and forth, nothing else below the elbow.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 18, 2016)

Getting a little bit more consistent on both sides with the use of the training ball. I played a few games last night with another guy, I have definitely seen a change in the way im controlling the cue ball on the table and the speed (how hard I'm shooting). It was nice to cut loose for a few game's. 

Been watching your YouTube channel, really appreciate those videos, a gold mine of stuff I've never knew.


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## compforce (Apr 18, 2016)

I'm glad you are enjoying it!  That's kinda the whole point  

Today I'm doing one on replacing the tip and then reviewing the new tips.  You've probably noticed that I'm shooting pretty hard when I'm playing.  That's because I still have the same Moori tip from 1999 on the cues and I have to hit hard to get the english.  I'm putting new Kamui Black tips on. (http://smile.amazon.com/Kamui-Black...UTF8&qid=1461002103&sr=8-1&keywords=kamui+tip)  I have a Medium and Soft so I can see the difference and which one I prefer.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 6, 2016)

I'm still working the English drill, its been easier with the training ball, I've also used those stickers on the cushion for consistency. I'm honestly still about 60% on the consistency of the drill. I'm not sure if I am burning out, but I am getting more and more frustrated with it, last night leaving the billiard room with a fuck this what the fuck am i doing attitude. lol I get silly sometimes when I'm trying to master something and its not going well. I'm taking a few days off and going to focus on some other things, trying give my mind a break from pool, well more specifically that drill...lol 

I really just wanted you to know I'm still practicing and the lack of update has been due to my lack of progress with the last drill.


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## compforce (May 6, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I'm still working the English drill, its been easier with the training ball, I've also used those stickers on the cushion for consistency. I'm honestly still about 60% on the consistency of the drill. I'm not sure if I am burning out, but I am getting more and more frustrated with it, last night leaving the billiard room with a fuck this what the fuck am i doing attitude. lol I get silly sometimes when I'm trying to master something and its not going well. I'm taking a few days off and going to focus on some other things, trying give my mind a break from pool, well more specifically that drill...lol
> 
> I really just wanted you to know I'm still practicing and the lack of update has been due to my lack of progress with the last drill.



It's easy to burn out with some of the repetitive drills.  It's OK.  I'll put together some speed drills to shoot and break up the monotony.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 3, 2016)

I'm about 80% on a consistent basis now, still not where I want to be. I spent about a week off and just shot games. Came back to the drills and the consistency improved. I guess I was a little too focused and needed to break away for awhile. Speed of the stroke really effects the transfer of English, far more than I had ever noticed before.

I'm following your YouTube videos a ton of great information. Really appreciate you taking the time to do those.


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## Etype (Jun 4, 2016)

So... this thread isn't about water polo or Marco Polo???


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## Polar Bear (Jun 4, 2016)

I like to play pocket pool


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## Red Flag 1 (Jun 4, 2016)

Polar Bear said:


> I like to play pocket pool



The geometry of pocket pool is a little hard to video tape. Either you have the feel for it, or you don't


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## compforce (Jun 4, 2016)

Etype said:


> So... this thread isn't about water polo or Marco Polo???



I could wear a speedo in one of the videos...


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## x SF med (Jun 5, 2016)

compforce said:


> I could wear a speedo in one of the videos...




NO.  You couldn't.:youllpay::whatever:


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## x SF med (Jun 5, 2016)

@Etype  - he physically could, true, but NOBOBY needs to see that, ever....:wall:


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## Etype (Jun 5, 2016)

The internet desires to see everything.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jun 5, 2016)

Etype said:


> The internet desires to see everything.



True enough.


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