# Two Dallas PD officers shot at protest



## Kraut783 (Jul 7, 2016)

Unfolding now....during a planned protest about police shootings in downtown Dallas. Unknown subject opened fired with unk rifle.  Reported two DPD officers shot, unknown condition...DPD clearing a parking garage.

Update: one subject down, another subject being looked for.

Stay safe brothers in blue....bad time to be a cop.


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## Muppet (Jul 7, 2016)

Fucking savages just looking for a reason to act the fool. Lets hope the officers are ok. You want to protest. Fine. Block traffic. Get run over. Act the fool, fucking get hooked up. Pull a gun on a cop, get handled.

M.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 7, 2016)

Fuck.  this shit in Minneapolis is getting ugly. 

Today the governor said this:  "CASTILE WOULD BE ALIVE TODAY IF HE WERE WHITE"  Newspaper was covering that angle; now they've pulled it from the story.

Woman streams aftermath of fatal officer-involved shooting in Falcon Heights

My wife no longer asks me why I carry everywhere.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 7, 2016)

Update: 10 officers shot, 3 officers dead.

Prayers to the officers and family's


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## racing_kitty (Jul 7, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Fuck.  this shit in Minneapolis is getting ugly.
> 
> Today the governor said this:  "CASTILE WOULD BE ALIVE TODAY IF HE WERE WHITE"  Newspaper was covering that angle; now they've pulled it from the story.
> 
> ...



It's my understanding that the officer that shot him was Asian (Chinese descent). That may explain the scrub.


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## Blizzard (Jul 7, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Fuck.  this shit in Minneapolis is getting ugly.
> 
> Today the governor said this:  "CASTILE WOULD BE ALIVE TODAY IF HE WERE WHITE"  Newspaper was covering that angle; now they've pulled it from the story.


Dayton is a genuine fucking idiot; I'm not sure how he musters enough brain power to get out of bed in the morning.


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 7, 2016)

racing_kitty said:


> It's my understanding that the officer that shot him was Asian (Chinese descent). That may explain the scrub.



There's only two skin colors in this country according to certain movements.

And holy shit.


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## Jael (Jul 8, 2016)

Dallas Police Department

Looks like 10 were shot, 3 are dead, 2 in surgery and 1 critical.

Edit: 4 now


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## Dame (Jul 8, 2016)

Updated: 11 shot, 4 dead, 3 critical. Just insane.
Four officers fatally shot during police protest in downtown Dallas


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## RUBSUMLOTION (Jul 8, 2016)

Goddamn bastards. 

Rest in peace. Stay strong Dallas PD. Till Valhalla.


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## policemedic (Jul 8, 2016)

RIP, Brothers.


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## racing_kitty (Jul 8, 2016)

Rest easy, officers.


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## Centermass (Jul 8, 2016)

Blizzard said:


> Dayton is a genuine fucking idiot;* I'm not sure how he musters enough brain power to get out of bed in the morning*.



He has Franken and Ventura giving him a hand.......:-"


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## Centermass (Jul 8, 2016)

A damn deadly day in Dallas. Mourning the loss and honoring the service of 5 Dallas Police Officers senselessly ambushed and killed in the line of duty by sniper fire. Prayers out to the families, friends and Brothers of those killed, and for a full recovery, to those wounded.


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## Rapid (Jul 8, 2016)

And people are still in denial that the media is stoking a huge race war. You start telling people that the police are out there to kill them (or give air time to those who do), and this is what will continue to happen.

Like this BBC (no shit) headline: _"Why do US police kill unarmed black men?"_

Is it ever going to get to a point where people will actually have enough with this libshit media?

RIP, officers.


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## Brill (Jul 8, 2016)

Fox is saying multiple snipers used intersecting fields of fire to create huge kill zone.

Is this terrorism?


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 8, 2016)

Fuck. The next few years might make the 60's look like a slumber party.


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## RackMaster (Jul 8, 2016)

lindy said:


> Fox is saying multiple snipers used intersecting fields of fire to create huge kill zone.
> 
> Is this terrorism?



They are talking this morning that the shooter was using "tactical" movements, may be former mil or LEO.  If there's proven connections to BLM and the protest, it certainly justifies declaring them a domestic terrorist organization.


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## Muppet (Jul 8, 2016)

Rest easy officers...

M.


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## Salt USMC (Jul 8, 2016)

Oh fuck.


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## compforce (Jul 8, 2016)

RIP to the officers, condolences to their families.

There are also unconfirmed reports that BLM is planning to take out any police officer they see in Baton Rouge on 7/9.  Heads on a swivel everyone!
Baton Rouge BLM is planning a "Purge" on police starting July 9th


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## Marine0311 (Jul 8, 2016)

Rest in Peace.

There is a war out there and our cops deserve our support.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 8, 2016)

Perspective on the Dallas shootings from a veteran and LEO:



> Here is what is _not _going to happen. We are not going to flinch. We are not going to back down. We are not going to give up ground. Tonight, tomorrow, and every day after, we are going to put on our uniforms and we are going to walk into the best and worst neighborhoods America has to offer. And we are going to protect them and do everything we can to keep them and the people who live there safe.
> 
> And to those who choose to prey on the people and the neighborhoods, it is simple. We will hunt you down and we will not stop. Ever.
> 
> We are the Thin Blue Line. We are Dallas.


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## Blizzard (Jul 8, 2016)

Godspeed to the fallen.  Prayers out to their families and loved ones.


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## Gunz (Jul 8, 2016)

RIP to the fallen, prayers to the families. This shit is gonna get worse.


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## Devildoc (Jul 8, 2016)

RIP.  Shit sickens me.  To cops here, be safe.


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## racing_kitty (Jul 8, 2016)

I haven't seen official word on this yet, and it may not make the news, considering the nature of the beast, but word on the EOD grapevine is that Dallas EOD assets deployed a robot and blew up the corpse of the shooter that killed himself.  He did say, before he killed himself, that there were bombs placed all over.  Whether the guy was wearing an S-vest or not, the mental picture alone makes me happy.

Closed casket funeral FTW!!!!!!

ETA:  The Wall Street Journal only has a single sentence discussing it, but the Guardian (bless their commie hearts) also make mention of it.  Dude claimed to have explosives on his person, DPD sends in the 'bot, charge goes boom, bad guy goes "croak," EOD fuckers drink beer to celebrate.  EOMFD!!!!!!!!!!


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 8, 2016)

Rest In God's Own Peace, Officers. Prayers out to all touched by this tragic event.

I hate that this is happening.


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## RackMaster (Jul 8, 2016)

I'm not really a religious man but given these events, I felt this prayer appropriate for all our LEO Brothers and Sisters.



> Lord, make me fast and accurate.
> Let my aim be true and my hand faster
> than those who wish to harm me and mine.
> Let not my last thought be “If only I had my gun”.
> ...


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 8, 2016)

Anyone want to guess which message resonates with me this morning, and which only causes me see carefully chosen and politically correct words, which I do not even believe she really means?


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## BloodStripe (Jul 8, 2016)

First of Murdered Dallas Cops Identified as Marine Veteran | Military.com

Semper Fi, Marine.  RIP.


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## SpitfireV (Jul 8, 2016)

Hilary's falls flat and Trumps is full of emotive language. They're both pillocks.


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## Gunz (Jul 8, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> First of Murdered Dallas Cops Identified as Marine Veteran | Military.com
> 
> Semper Fi, Marine.  RIP.



Semper Fi. Hand salute.


The shooter didn't kill himself. The DPD sent a robot in with explosives and blew the sick bastard up.


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## AWP (Jul 8, 2016)

You don't need to be prior military to make tactical movements or create a coordinated killzone. One can draw enough inspiration from movies like Heat, Ronin, Proof of Life, and a host of war movies from which to draw inspiration.

The bomb makes it interesting and certainly suggests premeditation or a willingness to act, but putting an ambush together in hours is understandable.


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## SpitfireV (Jul 8, 2016)

I've been hearing they blew up an explosive of some kind next to him with the robot, which killed him. Either way good result.


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## BuckysBadger24 (Jul 8, 2016)

Unbelievable.  All I've seen all morning is how we can't let this incident slander all of the peaceful protesters of the BLM and yadda yadda.  Of course, if an LEO has a "questionable" shooting, all of law enforcement is expected to answer (and pay) for it. 

5 officers dead, 7 more in the hospital.  But let's make sure we remember that last nights protest was "mostly peaceful".  Go fuck yourself Hillary.

R.I.P to the fallen.  Speedy recovery to the wounded.  God Bless those on here and across the country that continue to wear the badge day in and day out, and get a tough job done without so much as a thank you at the end of the day.


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## SmokinOkie (Jul 8, 2016)

There's going to be 2  'peaceful' BLM  protests in my city this weekend. We'll see how this goes.


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## racing_kitty (Jul 8, 2016)

Sending a robot in to countercharge the main charge is a perfectly acceptable RSP, even if the S-vest is still on his living person. He wanted to wear a bomb (or claim to), he was ready to accept the consequences of standard EOD procedure in a Cat A incident.  Fuck him, RSP complete.


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## petr (Jul 8, 2016)

It will soon come to the point that there will not be police walking on a beat but driving in armored vehicles for their own safety. Higher taxes to offset the costs involved and the lowlifes that get free shit won't have to pay for.


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## asewland (Jul 8, 2016)

RIP to the officers who lost their lives in this senseless act of violence. This whole week has rapidly become both depressing and enraging. Because of the actions of a few thoughtless morons, there are now more than a dozen innocent people that have been killed or maimed. I'm truly worried about what's going to come in the next few days.


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## DA SWO (Jul 8, 2016)

lindy said:


> Fox is saying multiple snipers used intersecting fields of fire to create huge kill zone.
> 
> Is this terrorism?


Not if they are black


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## Salt USMC (Jul 8, 2016)

petr said:


> It will soon come to the point that there will not be police walking on a beat but driving in armored vehicles for their own safety. Higher taxes to offset the costs involved and the lowlifes that get free shit won't have to pay for.


It has been argued that militarization of the police is one of the factors that has led to increased distrust between Police and the community that they serve.
Rise of the Warrior Cop


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## JimMCpog (Jul 8, 2016)

I'd love to know what his MOS was in the Army.


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## BuckysBadger24 (Jul 8, 2016)

JimMCpog said:


> I'd love to know what his MOS was in the Army.



Who's?


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## AWP (Jul 8, 2016)

JimMCpog said:


> I'd love to know what his MOS was in the Army.



Who and do you have a source or are you thinking out loud?


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 8, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> It has been argued that militarization of the police is one of the factors that has led to increased distrust between Police and the community that they serve.
> Rise of the Warrior Cop


I don't really buy into the whole militarization of the police. Noticed that a bunch of sociologists and eggheads (no offense to anyone) use that term when they try to describe the LEO community in a negative way. By claiming the LEO community is militarized they basically label them as deviant.


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## petr (Jul 8, 2016)

While it may bring distrust in the community, the safety of our officers should be more important. Do I agree that they should be rolling around in armored vehicles? No. But with the uprising of publicizing idiots in the media, it may come to this.


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## DA SWO (Jul 8, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Who and do you have a source or are you thinking out loud?


The dead shooter was id'd as an Army Vet (Yahoo news).
Military tactics are used every day by kids (and others) playing COD and other games.
DOJ won't say or do shit, helping racists hate mongers stir up the "oppressed".

How long before moderates call for a Police State to keep us "free and safe"?

It's gonna get worse before it gets better, I feel for the families of the fallen, and for the officers shot and having to recover/rehab.  

FWIW- The Black Community will suffer more as officers wait for multiple back ups before responding to a 9-1-1 call, the rubes high-fiving this morning are too stupid to know 2nd and 3rd order effects.


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## Centermass (Jul 8, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> It has been argued that militarization of the police is one of the factors that has led to increased distrust between Police and the community that they serve.
> Rise of the Warrior Cop



It's also been argued that the former AG and the current administration, the media along with BLM, have created the atmosphere of perpetuating violence against Law Enforcement.

BTW, Don Lemon is a fucking idiot.


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## policemedic (Jul 8, 2016)

petr said:


> It will soon come to the point that there will not be police walking on a beat but driving in armored vehicles for their own safety. Higher taxes to offset the costs involved and the lowlifes that get free shit won't have to pay for.



My men and women are walking beats, driving cars, and riding motorcycles and bicycles as we speak.  We will not be intimidated, nor will we cease being an integral part of our community.


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## policemedic (Jul 8, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> It has been argued that militarization of the police is one of the factors that has led to increased distrust between Police and the community that they serve.
> Rise of the Warrior Cop



The argument has been made.  The argument is trash.


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## RackMaster (Jul 8, 2016)

Here's the one shooters background, he was a Veteran.

The Dallas Shooting Suspect Had Military Experience


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 8, 2016)

policemedic said:


> The argument has been made.  The argument is trash.


You are right. The problem is that this argument is being touted as scripture by sociologists and the MSM. Just because the argument is wrong, it doesn't mean the public is going to accept is as wrong and take responsibility for their own shortcomings.


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## Centermass (Jul 8, 2016)

racing_kitty said:


> I haven't seen official word on this yet, and it may not make the news, considering the nature of the beast, but word on the EOD grapevine is that Dallas EOD assets deployed a robot and blew up the corpse of the shooter that killed himself.  He did say, before he killed himself, that there were bombs placed all over.  Whether the guy was wearing an S-vest or not, the mental picture alone makes me happy.
> 
> Closed casket funeral FTW!!!!!!
> 
> ETA:  The Wall Street Journal only has a single sentence discussing it, but the Guardian (bless their commie hearts) also make mention of it.  Dude claimed to have explosives on his person, DPD sends in the 'bot, charge goes boom, bad guy goes "croak," EOD fuckers drink beer to celebrate.  EOMFD!!!!!!!!!!



And this just on my local news:

_*"The police sent in a robot to blow up the suspect after negotiations with him failed."  
*_
The media. Not all bad, but some in it are just downright stupid and uninformed.

*ETA: Actually, I'm the fucking idiot here. When this was announced, I thought (Assumed) it was so far off base, no way. 

I stand corrected. Long live Johnny #5.*


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## Salt USMC (Jul 8, 2016)

policemedic said:


> The argument has been made.  The argument is trash.


Care to explain?


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 8, 2016)

Few months ago I had an assignment on this topic. It's posted below, sorry for any mistakes on my part. Instructor wanted us to explain how LE was deviant, I tried to turn the argument on it's head and stated that the civilian populace was deviant instead.

Deviance and Law Enforcement Response in the United States

Deviance as a social ill should not reflect on the law enforcement community but at the society which labels it as deviant. The role of law enforcement branch of the government simply provides a service. It is in no means responsible for any wide scale social ills that befall society. Therefore it is being used as a scapegoat in order to misdirect the public from their own issues. Simply put the law enforcement community is not the deviant party, the public is.

In recent times there has been a growing resentment among certain social groups with law enforcement. One of the big arguments, is that law enforcement has become militarized and that the tactics used by individual departments and officers are too harsh. There has been much public backlash regarding the justification in police shootings and the media coverage surrounding them. Advances in communication and recording technology have brought this facet of society to the average person’s doorstep. With it have come questions regarding race, social strata, and sensationalization about whether or not the level of police response is warranted.

The mass medias simplification of the often complex nature of law enforcement has in many ways polarized the public. To be blunt, the public has fallen prey into believing a narrative that law enforcement is in its own way deviant. This has trickled down to individual law enforcement officers (LEO's) being labeled as deviant, which in many ways is simply not the case. Not only that, but certain social groups have also used this consensus as a catalyst to further their own political agendas (Ransby, B pg. 32). By using race and social class as their rallying forces, social activists have in essence mobilized large groups of money and people behind a disjointed cause.

In a way, this perceived deviance by the public against the law enforcement community is the culmination in how disconnected and insulated the public really is. To be blunt the public does not know what true violence is. In a large way the public's outcry over “excessive force” is but a cry of simultaneous ignorance and bliss. The reason I say this is because I have personally seen and experienced a small part of the dark side of the human experience. My youth was spent amongst the group that has been so devalued and ostracized. I've had the privilege of serving alongside LEO's that transitioned to military service, in particular those in a parachute infantry regiment and then fellow vets in VA support groups.

Our book has an example of Durkheim's view on deviance and how, “Deviance produces social solidarity. Instead of breaking society up, deviance produces a pulling together, or social solidarity” (Andersen pg. 147). But for this example to work, the public as a whole must feel the impact of deviance. During Durkheim's era men were conscripted to fight in times of conflict regardless of their political and ideological differences. The majority of families shared the loss of the male figure during times of conflict. In many ways this was a great equalizer, where the populace at large did not have the luxury of being insulated from conflict or strife caused by violence (Gilbert J. pg. 1283).

In today’s era this is simply not the case, the days of mass solidarity against deviance is essentially weakened. A perfect example would be the war on terror; how after a few years it has faded into the backdrop in the public arena. Many men and women take pride in the fact that the American public has been so well insulated from the current war on terror. At the same time this safety net has caused a small percentage of the population to shoulder a tremendous burden, while the public has the option to ignore the ugly side of society. Namely the dual nature of humankind, our propensity towards either great altruism or barbarism.

In many ways the law enforcement community is the quintessential example of so few doing so much. According to the FBI's uniform crime reports in 2014 there were 403,984 law enforcement officers that were tasked with policing a population of 268,296,362 (FBI UCR Table 71). The table provided by the Uniform Crime Reports calculates this to 2.2 officers per 1000 people. This group handled 1,165,383 instances of violent crime and 8,277,829 instances of property crime in 2014 alone (FBI UCR Table 1). Numerically we can grossly oversimplify things, lets say that each officer is tasked with handling 2.9 violent crimes and 20.5 property crimes. The problem with this oversimplification is that these are department provided numbers, at the lower levels we have no real way of knowing how many people it took to handle each individual case.

Now let’s move on to the subject of police shootings per year in the United States. The FBI uniformed crime reports do not have a table for the number of police shootings per year. The Guardian a British newspaper started one in 2015 called “The Counted”, for the 2015 year they documented 1145 people killed by police shootings in the United States (The Counted 2015). For the moment let us just ignore that this data was gathered by a foreign media source, let’s also say that there is no background bias. Compared to the 21,606 murders (FBI UCR Table 1) and non-negligent manslaughter’s during the 2014 year 1145 people seems like a drop in the bucket. So for every single police shooting there were approximately 19 murders in the United States.

So let’s keep the number of 1150 people killed in 2015 as a marker (The Counted 2015). Another missing piece of information is the breakdown of how many of the 1145 killings were justified, without the investigation reports we are missing a large piece of the puzzle. Which brings to question how social activists and pundits seem to claim that they know better than the LEO's pulling the trigger. This makes me wonder how many of these activists have had to pull a trigger or have faced the reality of making life and death decisions in mere seconds. How do I know this? Well I have been on the end of that spectrum, I have had to make those same split second choices. It is not easy or fair, but when is life like that?

In essence the outcry over police shootings in the Unites States is just a knee-jerk reaction. The numbers gathered by the FBI and foreign media outlets don't seem to support that police shootings are a widespread prevalent phenomenon. In fact it kind of points in the opposite direction. That the American public is being insulated from so called police deviance, they are protected by a very professional and competent police force. Which makes much of the anger and public outcry against the LEO's and their departments seem trite and laughable.

So one must wonder why there is such an outcry over rare and isolated incidents of police deviance. In many ways the law enforcement community is being used as a scapegoat by outside forces. In particular, for unrelated social and cultural problems within certain communities. Rampant social problems such as crime are not the fault of the police. If any group is deviant it is the communities and activists that are enabling the widespread use of misinformation to target a social minority. In particular, a social group that cannot strike back at these charlatans and hatemongers.

What is even more disturbing is how certain social activists groups and the mass media actually profited from the resulting violence. The Baltimore riots and ensuing chaos are an excellent example of this. For instance when mass media outlets sensationalized the death of Freddie Gray, they effectively blew up and monetized what should have been a non-issue. Groups like the NAACP and the Black Lives Matter movement also gained large tracts of media coverage and donor support; all over a petty drug dealer. Let contrast this with the media coverage of minors shot to death in gangland crossfires and drive by shootings, their coverage was close to nonexistent. In a sad way intolerance and sensationalism have merged together as a mechanism for profit.

Now by themselves the groups that labeled the LEO community as deviant were not active players or nonexistent until recently. There must have been some sort of social phase shift in the past few years that led to these outcomes. Marginalization, poverty, and social inequality have always been present social ills; which brings to question how this type of misinformation spread like wildfire. My guess would be that increased inter-connectivity via social media may have been a factor, but it was by no means the main catalyst. The large mobilization of people in such a quick and timely fashion in my eyes suggests that there had to be some sort of command and control element. The subsequent scapegoating of the LEO community by the people they serve also seemed very methodical and well-paced.

In many ways the polarization and growing divide between the public and the civil servants that are tasked to protect them is unfortunate. To circle back to the beginning, there is a common consensus amongst the public that the police are becoming too militarized. But in light of an increasingly interconnected world the public is being faced with threats that were simply not an issue in the past. Radicalism and terrorism have always been present in modern societies but now it seems that these threats are closer to home. Tragedies such as mass shootings and an increase in radicalism have in a way forced police and federal agencies to use new techniques to adapt to an increasingly insecure world (Campbell pg. 329) .

This rise in intolerance could be due to growing fears amongst the civilian population that they are not as safe as they were. But instead of facing the fire and trying to combat this new rise in deviance the public has instead lashed out at their protectors. Sadly for those of us who have been trying to combat this rise in deviance, the unwillingness of the public to join the fray has been disheartening. Maybe after so many years of the shielding the public from the realities of this new world, we have done them a disservice. It could be that Durkheim was right that “societies need deviance” (Andersen pg. 147) in order to evolve and move forward.

At the end of the day I think that the perceived deviance against the law enforcement community will change when society finally comes to grip with the new era. It’s funny how sometimes the group that is labeled as deviant is actually the one that is embracing new ideas and techniques. One cannot just lay blame with the public at large or the law enforcement community. The public has been kept blissfully unaware, thanks to the relative safety that has been provided by such a small group. Backlash in the form of confusion and anger at waking up to see a fractured world could be quantified as normal (Balko, R).

One must hope that this divide between the classes will be bridged. Through mutual understanding and selfless sacrifice we as a society might pull together and forge a new path. Like the pioneers of old there will be hardship and bitter tears. But on the same token there will be much joy and knowledge gained when we reach an era of peace. The public cannot be shielded forever, they must learn to face the coming storm of an increasingly interconnected world. When they do they will be prepared however and will hopefully have an easier time navigating the light and darkness that is present in social change.

References


Andersen, M. L., Taylor, H. F., & Logio, K. A. (2013). _Sociology: The essentials. Stamford_, CT: Cengage Learning/Wadsworth.


Balko, Radley. July 2013. Rise of the Warrior Cop. _ABA Journal, Volume 99(Issue 7, pg. 44-52)._

Retrieved from: http://web.b.ebscohost.com/ehost/detail/detail?vid=3&sid=276e6d62-24c4-44e1-9c80-5b4820ddae8c@sessionmgr104&hid=101&bdata=JnNpdGU9ZWhvc3QtbGl2ZSZzY29wZT1zaXRl#AN=88788045&db=lgh


Campbell, J. Donald., & Campbell M. Kathleen. 24 Sept 2009. Soldiers as Police Officers/ Police Officers as Soldiers: Role Evolution and Revolution in the United States. _Armed Forces and Society: January 2012, Volume 36 (no.2)._ Retrieved from _http://afs.sagepub.com/content/36/2/327.full.pdf+html_


FBI Uniform Crime Reports. 2014. Table 71, Full Time Law Enforcement Officers. Retrieved from Table 71


FBI Uniform crime Reports. 2014. Table 1, Crime in the United States. Retrieved from Table 1


Gilbert, J.. (2012). Review of, Of War and Men: World War II in the Lives of Fathers and Their Families. _American Journal of Sociology_, _117_(4), 1282–1284. http://doi.org/10.1086/663089


Ransby, B. (2015). The Class Politics of Black Lives Matter. _Dissent (Volume_ _62, Issue 4_ _pg. 31-34)_. Retrieved from EBSCO Publishing Service Selection Page


The Guardian. 2015. The Counted People Killed by Police in the US. Retrieved from The Counted: people killed by police in the United States – interactive


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## x SF med (Jul 8, 2016)

RIP to the fallen and injured officers.

When will the idiots realize that all lives matter and that a single race (Human) is who we are?


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## Centermass (Jul 8, 2016)

And then, there's this: 

*Killer Mike: Hip-Hop Artist Comments on Fatal Police-Involved Shootings: 
*
The Atlanta-based rapper tweeted Wednesday, "lynchings were public to keep a class system based on race intact in the Jim Crow south. Public Executions by Police 2day do the same."


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## Centermass (Jul 8, 2016)




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## RackMaster (Jul 8, 2016)

The Mirror is reporting a Black Power Group has taken responsibility.


'Black Power group' claims to be behind police killings and warns more to come


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## BloodStripe (Jul 8, 2016)

Centermass said:


> And then, there's this:
> 
> *Killer Mike: Hip-Hop Artist Comments on Fatal Police-Involved Shootings:
> *
> The Atlanta-based rapper tweeted Wednesday, "lynchings were public to keep a class system based on race intact in the Jim Crow south. Public Executions by Police 2day do the same."



Lynching Statistics

There were 3,446 African-Americans lynched in the US between 1882 and 1968. That number of is according to the Tuskegee Institute. To put that number into perspective, last year there were over 4,500 African-Americans killed by other African-Americans. So what does that sat about the class system for African-Americans now?


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 8, 2016)

RackMaster said:


> The Mirror is reporting a Black Power Group has taken responsibility.
> 
> 
> 'Black Power group' claims to be behind police killings and warns more to come


Huh.

If true I believe that they may quickly find out this that isn't Iraq, that they are not ISIS, and that the Internet is not as anonomous as they might like to hope.


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## policemedic (Jul 8, 2016)

x SF med said:


> RIP to the fallen and injured officers.
> 
> When will the idiots realize that all lives matter and that a single race (Human) is who we are?



Idiots don't anthropology much.


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## DA SWO (Jul 8, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Huh.
> 
> If true I believe that they may quickly find out this that isn't Iraq, that they are not ISIS, and that the Internet is not as *anonymous* as they might like to hope.


Disagree, "Black Power" groups have gotten more than one free pass since Obama came into office, so why should they think otherwise?


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## RUBSUMLOTION (Jul 8, 2016)

The dead shooter is confirmed as Micah Johnson. He was in the Army Reserves as a Carpenter/Masonry specialist, 12W.

Here's Everything We Know About Micah Johnson, the Dallas Police Shooting Suspect


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## Rapid (Jul 8, 2016)

x SF med said:


> RIP to the fallen and injured officers.
> 
> When will the idiots realize that all lives matter and that a single race (Human) is who we are?



It's almost impossible to reason with BLM and many of their supporters.

Their 'argument' against this is literally, "All lives can't matter until Black lives matter"...

They themselves are implying as a matter of fact that, currently, Black lives don't matter. It makes you wonder, what the hell will we have to do before they accept that Black lives finally do matter? The answer is probably "nothing", because like most social justice groups, they cannot exist without whatever perceived problem it is they're railing against. It's in their interest to make problems out of nothing or to keep stoking trouble. Without any issues, they wouldn't have a _raison d'être_ and would cease to exist... so of course they don't want to give up any power they have.

They claim to be fighting for progress, but really they'd like nothing more but to see more tension. Some of them literally get off on the idea of a civil war.


----------



## AWP (Jul 8, 2016)

Fox is saying he enlisted in 2009 and served until 2014, during which he "rose to the rank" of PFC. How can you not make SPC in 5 years?

Details emerge about racial rage that drove sniper's deadly rampage | Fox News



> According to a senior U.S. defense official, Johnson enlisted in the U.S. Army reserves in 2009 and rose to the rank of private first class. He had one deployment to Afghanistan from November, 2013 to July of 2014. Upon returning, he remained an inactive reserve until May, 2015, when he was honorably discharged.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 8, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Fox is saying he enlisted in 2009 and served until 2014, during which he "rose to the rank" of PFC. How can you not make SPC in 5 years?
> 
> Details emerge about racial rage that drove sniper's deadly rampage | Fox News


Easily could have been NJP'd and still received and honorable discharge.

I just read on USA Today his MOS was Carpentry and Masonry Specialist  (12W).


----------



## AWP (Jul 8, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> Easily could have been NJP'd and still received and honorable discharge.



Which partially answers my rhetorical question. You're right, but we're back to "why." DId he suck so bad he couldn't make SPC, did he take a bust, WHY did those things happen, could he have done or said something his unit ignored, etc. One interview with a former platoon member said he changed after his deployment. Maybe that happened, maybe he had some long-standing issues...we'll have to wait for the investigation.

----

Something I forgot from an earlier post: Magpul, Panteao, and a host of Youtube videos could have helped this guy. Some unique pre-deployment training? More stuff to potentially turn up in the investigation. Regardless, people have all sorts of means at their disposal to learn basic tactics and weapons handling.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Not much I can really say that hasn't been said already here. Sad situation and getting worse.

Rest easy Officers, and thank you for your service to the state of Texas and the city of Dallas.

Fuck black lives matter, the black pride movement, and the new black panther party. Fuck all you stupid motherfuckers who want to chant kill white people or kill the cops. Fuck you, fuck you, fuck you...


----------



## policemedic (Jul 8, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Care to explain?



In short, Balko is a biased and uniformed writer who clearly has an agenda that he is willing to push forward without regard for accuracy in reporting.


----------



## Salt USMC (Jul 8, 2016)

policemedic said:


> In short, Balko is a biased and uniformed writer who clearly has an agenda that he is willing to push forward without regard for accuracy in reporting.


It's an opinion piece, it's supposed to be biased.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 8, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Something I forgot from an earlier post: Magpul, Panteao, and a host of Youtube videos could have helped this guy. Some unique pre-deployment training? More stuff to potentially turn up in the investigation. Regardless, people have all sorts of means at their disposal to learn basic tactics and weapons handling.



Just because he was a carpenter by MOS doesn't mean the shit bag wasn't trained for a different mission. It happens all the time with reserve groups, slap a bunch a different MOS's together and make a PSD group or a convoy security company, etc. Pre-Deployment training would be very different for them in that situation. That, and the fact that APRM & SDM  courses are opened to all USAR soldiers, it's not hard to believe this cocksucker had enough training to pull this fucking act of terrorism off.


----------



## policemedic (Jul 8, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> It's an opinion piece, it's supposed to be biased.



Fair point.  But that bias is not enough to sustain a cogent argument.

Y0u'll have noticed the litany of corrections that had to be appended to the article, of course.  

I don't dispute that SWAT teams have been occasionally misused by certain agencies.  For that matter, so have parking enforcement officers nationwide.  However, the existence of SWAT--a life-saving organization, no matter what anyone says--does not, ipso facto, mean that the police have been militarized.  I reject that notion unequivocally.  

Yes, many of us have long guns of some kind.  Lawmen have carried rifles and shotguns since before Wyatt Earp pinned on a star.  We use body armor, and have for decades.  Arguing about what either looks like is a meaningless effort.  The police have guns, and we use the gun (or tool, or tactic) most appropriate to the instant problem assuming we have the luxury of having proper equipment and options.  People outside law enforcement who argue against these things make as much sense as someone with no training in medicine telling me when I should use adenosine, diltiazem or amiodarone to control a tachycardia.

Quite frankly, outside of some high profile units like NYPD's Hercules teams, you rarely see these _militarized weapons more suited to the battlefield than policing American streets _(as if Balko has seen or done either) deployed.  High-risk car stop? Sure.  Man with a gun call? Sure.  Walking a beat along a retail strip in downtown Philadelphia? Fuck no.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jul 8, 2016)

This has been the most devastating day.....stay safe brothers.


----------



## CDG (Jul 8, 2016)

RIP to the fallen officers.  We're heading down a very dangerous path.


----------



## Marine0311 (Jul 8, 2016)

CDG said:


> RIP to the fallen officers.  We're heading down a very dangerous path.



We have and continue to do so. There is a war continuing to brew out there. I sure as shit am looking at my options.


----------



## Rapid (Jul 8, 2016)




----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jul 8, 2016)

Rapid said:


>



Interesting video, and this is from the UK.


----------



## BloodStripe (Jul 8, 2016)




----------



## racing_kitty (Jul 8, 2016)




----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 8, 2016)

Let Hillary Clinton explain it:

Hillary Clinton: White people have to listen to ‘legitimate cries’ from blacks

_“I’m going to be talking to white people, we’re the ones who have to start listening to the legitimate cries coming from our African-American fellow citizens,” she said.

“I will call for white people, like myself, to put ourselves in the shoes of those African-American families who fear every time their children go somewhere, who have to have ‘The Talk,’ about, you now, how to really protect themselves [from police], when they’re the ones who should be expecting protection from encounters with police,” Clinton told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer.

“There is so much more to be done… we can’t be engaging in hateful rhetoric or incitement of violence, we need to be bringing people together … we need more love and kindness.”_


That is so condescending. If I were a person of color, I would be highly insulted.



.


----------



## Cabbage Head (Jul 8, 2016)

RIP.  Crazy times for law enforcement.   Now I hear that there were at least 3 other Officers either shot or shot at today.  Crazy times!!!


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jul 8, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Let Hillary Clinton explain it:
> 
> Hillary Clinton: White people have to listen to ‘legitimate cries’ from blacks
> 
> ...



Are we this divided as a nation? Two seperate populations? What ever happened to Pres Johnson's  Great Society?  We went through intigration in the sixties, and I thought that all this time we were striving to be a nation that was not divided by color. What happened to all that? Where did this all break down and turn into Black Lives Matter. They all matter, and where did things breakdown to the point where we are today?  Why are we now divided?


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 8, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Are we this divided as a nation? Two seperate populations? What ever happened to Pres Johnson's  Great Society?  We went through intigration in the sixties, and I thought that all this time we were striving to be a nation that was not divided by color. What happened to all that? Where did this all break down and turn into Black Lives Matter. They all matter, and where did things breakdown to the point where we are today?  Why are we now divided?


Yes.

I think Clinton really started it during his time in office.  This was part of his "Triangulation" strategy.  It's gotten worse over the last 7 years.


----------



## Rapid (Jul 8, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Let Hillary Clinton explain it:
> 
> Hillary Clinton: White people have to listen to ‘legitimate cries’ from blacks
> 
> ...



If Clinton gets elected, you're in for even more assfuckery.


----------



## Brill (Jul 8, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Let Hillary Clinton explain it:
> 
> Hillary Clinton: White people have to listen to ‘legitimate cries’ from blacks
> 
> ...



definitely qualified to lead this country!


----------



## Kheenbish (Jul 8, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Let Hillary Clinton explain it:
> 
> Hillary Clinton: White people have to listen to ‘legitimate cries’ from blacks
> 
> ...


This is so fitting for her. Yes Americans died in Benghazi but it was because of a video, we should really get to understand the people of the Middle East...won't ever come out and just say this said group was in the wrong.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 8, 2016)

End of Watch
Senior CPL Lorne Ahrens
Officer Michael Krol
Sergeant Michael Smith
Officer Patrick Zamarripa
Officer Brett Thompson.


----------



## Ares (Jul 8, 2016)

> Brent Thompson, 43, joined DART Police Department in 2009. He is the first to be killed in the line of duty since the agency was established in 1989. He had just married a fellow officer.
> 
> Before DART he worked for military contractor DynCorp International, mentoring and training teams in Afghanistan and Iraq. He also described himself on Linkedin as someone motivated by a “team” atmosphere, writing: “I enjoy working on challenging tasks and problem solving with my peers. I am constantly looking for different ways to serve the department, this helps to keep my work from becoming sedentary and boring.”
> 
> ...



These Are the Victims of the Dallas Police Shooting

End of watch, never forgotten. Prayers to Family and Dept. God bless the blue line.


----------



## Rapid (Jul 8, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Let Hillary Clinton explain it:
> 
> Hillary Clinton: White people have to listen to ‘legitimate cries’ from blacks
> 
> ...



It's ok, she can be just as condescending to dumb whiteys.


----------



## Marine0311 (Jul 8, 2016)

Rapid said:


> If Clinton gets elected, you're in for even more assfuckery.



I am going to start prepping now. :-"


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 8, 2016)

And that is our next POTUS...


----------



## Muppet (Jul 9, 2016)

Rapid said:


> It's ok, she can be just as condescending to dumb whiteys.



Fuck their feelings. Everybody suffers. My ancestors as European Jews, millions and millions died at the hands of Hitler and his jerk offs. My ancestors, the Irish were slaved, thousands and thousands. These people are not only ones to suffer. As far as I know, my grandfather, Nathan did not ask for reparations. That is all I have to say about that.

M.

M.


----------



## Brill (Jul 9, 2016)

Rapid said:


> It's ok, she can be just as condescending to dumb whiteys.



She is right! The struggles of African Americans, who strive for the same life, liberty, and pursuit of happiness, have been subverted by privileged whites for far too long.

I'm going to listen to this man and do my best to help him lift the barriers he encounters.  WE shall overcome!

Open carry activist labeled a suspect in Dallas shooting says police 'defamed' him | Fox News


----------



## Brill (Jul 9, 2016)

Commentary by Ben Stein

The Cops Are the Real Stars | The American Spectator


----------



## Brill (Jul 9, 2016)

Cops are overwhelming killing...white people?  At almost TWICE the rate of black.

Investigation: People shot and killed by police this year


----------



## Poccington (Jul 9, 2016)

Rapid said:


> It's ok, she can be just as condescending to dumb whiteys.



Her Twitter timeline is absolutely bonkers at the minute.

She has two tweets where she mentions the slain police officers, everything else is about how "White Americans" needs to do more, Black Lives Matter and so on.


----------



## Etype (Jul 9, 2016)

lindy said:


> Cops are overwhelming killing...white people?  At almost TWICE the rate of black.
> 
> Investigation: People shot and killed by police this year


Heather MacDonald has a bunch of great stats in her new book.

Police are something like EIGHTEEN times more likely to be killed by an adult black male, than an adult black male is to be killed by cops.


----------



## Brill (Jul 9, 2016)

Etype said:


> Heather MacDonald has a bunch of great stats in her new book.
> 
> Police are something like EIGHTEEN times more likely to be killed by an adult black male, than an adult black male is to be killed by cops.



Meh. Doesn't support the national narrative so it's "implicitly biased". At least all LEOs will soon be Federal employees like TSA. Clinton's national ROEs are the start.

Hillary Clinton says 'implicit bias' still exists in U.S. - CNNPolitics.com


----------



## Kraut783 (Jul 9, 2016)

Haa....federal "use of deadly force" is a lot looser than the states...she has no idea what she is talking about.


----------



## Rapid (Jul 9, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> Haa....federal "use of deadly force" is a lot looser than the states...



For now?


----------



## AWP (Jul 9, 2016)

Now we have some answers to earlier questions in this thread.

Dallas sniper followed black militant groups on Facebook, was sent home from Afghanistan over harassment claim | Fox News



> In May 2014, six months into his Afghanistan tour, he was accused of sexual harassment by a female soldier. The Army sent him stateside, recommending an "other than honorable discharge," said Bradford Glendening, the military lawyer who represented him.
> 
> Glendening said Johnson was set to be removed from the Army in September 2014 because of the incident, but instead got an honorable discharge months later -- for reasons he can't understand.
> 
> "Someone really screwed up," he said. "But to my client's benefit."


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jul 9, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Now we have some answers to earlier questions in this thread.
> 
> Dallas sniper followed black militant groups on Facebook, was sent home from Afghanistan over harassment claim | Fox News



I was expecting to have PTSD pop up as a cause for all this. A relief to not see or hear that mentioned.


----------



## AWP (Jul 9, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I was expecting to have PTSD pop up as a cause for all this. A relief to not see or hear that mentioned.



As I like to tell people, "the day ain't over."


----------



## DocIllinois (Jul 9, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> As I like to tell people, "the day ain't over."



There's a reason the stock press photo of Mr. Johnson is of he in his military uniform, even though he is no longer a service member, IMO . 

We do all have the "worst" form of PTSD, dontya know.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Jul 9, 2016)

I think that it is glorious, how there are press outlets that are sayin the EOD bot use deprived due process to the shithead.


----------



## Brill (Jul 9, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Dallas sniper followed black militant groups on Facebook, was sent home from Afghanistan over harassment claim | Fox News



You were told to listen to the legitimate cries of your fellow Americans!


----------



## AWP (Jul 9, 2016)

lindy said:


> You were told to listen to the legitimate cries of your fellow Americans!



I have a problem with authority, especially the bullshit kind.


----------



## BuckysBadger24 (Jul 9, 2016)

Silly me, here I've been talking to African American ladies and gents like I do everyone else.  Usually as, you know, a regular fuckin person.

"Yeah, the Bucks might be good next year, it has been warm lately, that car your driving is pretty slick, but how does that all make you feel..."


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jul 9, 2016)

Ranger Psych said:


> I think that it is glorious, how there are press outlets that are sayin the EOD bot use deprived due process to the shithead.



He got the same due process he doled out to others. May he now be in that special place in Hell. The place for cowards, child molesters, rapists, and traitors.


----------



## Gunz (Jul 9, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> It has been argued that militarization of the police is one of the factors that has led to increased distrust between Police and the community that they serve.
> Rise of the Warrior Cop



I disagree and I think this is total BS. The cocaine shootouts in South Florida, the famous LA gunfight and other incidents demonstrated in blood how out-gunned police departments were. The have had to ramp up firepower and gear to meet existing threats and circumstances. When you're in foot pursuit of a BG through alleys, backyards, over fences in the dark, do you want to be in dress shoes and a tie? Or tactical gear and boots? Do you want to face big caliber high volume rifle fire with a Glock 9? Or would you rather have an AR in the trunk and 500 rounds of 556? 

Maybe the sight of a tactically equipped LEO will intimidate those who stray across the lines of legality, and that's just fine with me.

COP'S LIVES MATTER.


----------



## DocIllinois (Jul 9, 2016)

How fine is the line between patrol law enforcement giving the impression to the populace that they're enforcing rather than keeping the peace?


----------



## Marine0311 (Jul 9, 2016)

DocIllinois said:


> How fine is the line between patrol law enforcement giving the impression to the populace that they're enforcing rather than keeping the peace?



Razor thin from what my cop friends tell me.


----------



## Beagle (Jul 9, 2016)

Being a minority that came here in 1989, made something of myself and working with many successful blacks.

I don't understand what the crap is going on, can't speak for the whole country but from my experience we have an unbelievable opportunity to prosper in the United States of America. 

I don't understand this whole victim mentality.  But hey let's march with Snoop Dogg and The Game; both have shot up people in gang violence and who cares about the police officer protecting us?  Yeah that's crazy.


----------



## Beagle (Jul 9, 2016)

Also another thing, what the hell is Hillary talking about "Whites needing to listen to Blacks"

I do talk to and work with blacks daily and no problem at all and nothing about the white man keeping any of us down.


----------



## Florida173 (Jul 9, 2016)

You guys see this yet?

Seemed like they did the right thing from the get go.. although they are getting a bit too hung up on the way law enforcement were questioning him. Media is more to blame than the police.


----------



## Beagle (Jul 9, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> You guys see this yet?
> 
> Seemed like they did the right thing from the get go.. although they are getting a bit too hung up on the way law enforcement were questioning him. Media is more to blame than the police.



It was all cool until he said that the media and the world prejudge him.  (Which is true) but I don't think he understand that Black Lives Matter and the protest he is supporting is also prejudging all officers that shoot a black person.

Now there are corrupt officers but BLM making it sound like all white officers are hunting down blacks.  I don't even think a racist white officer would bother shooting a black person just because they are black, no one going to throw away their career because they are racist.

Today two black man and a 9 year child were killed.  Do these 3 black lives not matter?  Where is Black Lives Matter?


----------



## SpongeBob*24 (Jul 9, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> *COP'S LIVES MATTER.*



Best POST in a long time!!!!


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 9, 2016)

NavyBuyer said:


> Lynching Statistics
> 
> There were 3,446 African-Americans lynched in the US between 1882 and 1968. That number of is according to the Tuskegee Institute. To put that number into perspective, last year there were over 4,500 African-Americans killed by other African-Americans. So what does that sat about the class system for African-Americans now?



I don't think that makes the point you want to make.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 9, 2016)

First off RIP to all involved, and speedy recoveries to those being treated currently.








Now I have to say this thread is pretty goddamn absurd. 

There are of course the pro-gun posts, which I understand, this is a mil forum. There are the underhanded racist posts which surprised me, then come the blatant conspiracy theory posts. All mixed in with a lot of not understanding the things being mocked. 

It is funny to me actually, how in America today we cannot even say something might be fucked up without screaming xxxx LiVES MATTER! Of course they do, no reasonable person is saying they don't. Saying Black Lives matter doesn't even imply others don't. Saying eagles soar doesn't preclude other birds from flying.

We can't say that maybe people have reason to be upset when there is a video on the Internet of a cop shooting a dude point blank in the chest, while he seemed to be restrained. Obviously everyone isn't an expert in police tactics, we cannot all be experts in everything, but instead of even explaining it, or trying to see another point of view, it is "my privelege, and COP LIVES MATTER, and you weren't there, ...etc" both sides, instead of waiting for an investigation, went full fucking ballistic. This is a product of the world we live in, where video is changing the way we see interactions with police. 

 I'm not a police expert, but that shooting looked pretty goddamn terrible to me and probably a 100 million other Americans. I know shoot no shoots are stressful, and I cannot imagine what that officer is going through, not only from the shooting, but with all that has happened since. I also feel for the family of the gentleman that was shot, who have to watch him be shot point blank by the people we expect to protect us. 

I know what is going to be responded to in this post. Someone will probably say I don't have any idea about use of force, like I said, I don't in the modern urban crime environment. Someone else will probably say that dude was a criminal, ok. Lastly some of the stats posted here straight up do not account for all kinds of wicked variables. I am too busy to go through and point out all the ways they are off, yet again. Bring on the hates.


----------



## Beagle (Jul 9, 2016)

Dallas police headquarter on lockdown, SWAT deployed


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 9, 2016)

Because all good things come with a link -

Dallas Police Headquarters on lockdown, SWAT deployed after threat


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> First off RIP to all involved, and speedy recoveries to those being treated currently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



Which shooting looked terrible to you? Dallas or Minnesota?


----------



## SpitfireV (Jul 9, 2016)

What ended up being the deal with the three arrested in the black Merc?


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 9, 2016)

SpitfireV said:


> What ended up being the deal with the three arrested in the black Merc?


Let go after talking with the cops was my understanding.


----------



## SpitfireV (Jul 9, 2016)

Thanks. Their outcome wasn't reported down here.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 9, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Which shooting looked terrible to you? Dallas or Minnesota?



The Baton Rouge shooting looked pretty damn horrible. The shooting in Minnesota also looked not great.


----------



## policemedic (Jul 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> First off RIP to all involved, and speedy recoveries to those being treated currently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



No hate, brother.  For the most part I agree with you.  I just want to clarify something- are you talking about the Baton Rouge or the Minnesota shooting?  To me, they're completely different as each shooting incident is unique.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 9, 2016)

policemedic said:


> No hate, brother.  For the most part I agree with you.  I just want to clarify something- are you talking about the Baton Rouge or the Minnesota shooting?  To me, they're completely different as each shooting incident is unique.



The Baton Rouge shooting was the most egregious.


----------



## Beagle (Jul 9, 2016)

Stopped 52 times by police: Was it racial profiling?
Stopped 52 times by police: Was it racial profiling? | Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2016/07/0...tcmp=ob_article_sidebar_video&intcmp=obinsite
Officer who shot Minnesota man reacted to gun, not race, lawyer says
Officer who shot Minnesota man reacted to gun, not race, lawyer says | Fox News


----------



## policemedic (Jul 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> The Baton Rouge shooting was the most egregious.



I don't know enough about the Minnesota shooting to provide informed commentary, at least at a significant level.

The Baton Rouge shooting I have no problem with, and I expect that a fair and complete investigation will exonerate the officers.  It may help their cause to have an expert provide an informed opinion, but the officers themselves should be able to articulate sufficient danger of imminent death or serious bodily injury under the circumstances as they knew them to justify their actions.

I do understand why it looks bad, and can understand the initial reaction from many people.  What this shooting and the public reaction to it show me as a professional in the field is that the Baton Rouge PD completely screwed the pooch on the PR aspect of this incident.  Proper management of the flow of accurate, correct information to the press along with a transparent attitude would have helped them shape the narrative and minimize backlash.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 9, 2016)

policemedic said:


> I don't know enough about the Minnesota shooting to provide informed commentary, at least at a significant level.
> 
> The Baton Rouge shooting I have no problem with, and I expect that a fair and complete investigation will exonerate the officers.  It may help their cause to have an expert provide an informed opinion, but the officers themselves should be able to articulate sufficient danger of imminent death or serious bodily injury under the circumstances as they knew them to justify their actions.
> 
> I do understand why it looks bad, and can understand the initial reaction from many people.  What this shooting and the public reaction to it show me as a professional in the field is that the Baton Rouge PD completely screwed the pooch on the PR aspect of this incident.  Proper management of the flow of accurate, correct information to the press along with a transparent attitude would have helped them shape the narrative and minimize backlash.



Yeah to me, being uninformed in the ROE's it looks like they shot a dude in the chest point blank while his hands were being held.  I think that is what it looks like to a lot of Americans.


----------



## policemedic (Jul 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah to me, being uninformed in the ROE's it looks like they shot a dude in the chest point blank while his hands were being held.  I think that is what it looks like to a lot of Americans.



It's not so much understanding the ROEs as it is understanding just how easy it is to fire that gun from the pocket and how fast that can happen despite the way things looked.  Long story short, they didn't have control of him.  This could easily have gone another way.

I do think many people view it as you do for the same reasons.  This is why we in LE need to be unafraid of having a public conversation and laying out the details of incidents like these.  Of course, there is a need to protect the investigation and so maybe not everything can or should be released, but a discussion and explanation of the threat the officers faced is appropriate.

Of course, this all requires a chief with intestinal fortitude.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah to me, being uninformed in the ROE's it looks like they shot a dude in the chest point blank while his hands were being held.  I think that is what it looks like to a lot of Americans.



You have a unique way of seeing things. Looked like he was not complying with the officers and was armed with a gun. I would've shot the dude too.

There is a lot more to the Minnesota story than what the dudes girlfriend is saying. 1) he didn't have a CCW license, 2) the gun was sitting on his leg as the officer approached and 3) he was pulled over because he met the discription of an armed robbery suspect.

4 Things You Must Know About Philando Castile Before Another Cop Dies

I'll leave the right or wrong to the IA investigation and or grand jury. BUT I can confidentiality say that LEO's are not out and about randomly killing black men for no reason whatsoever.  I don't think it's just that it's on video either. I think people have become so fucking stupid, that they will believe anything. Some girlfriend or some media twist, or some liberal retard blaming the "white man" for not feeling the pains of the black community. Or the people who actually put themselves in these situations of life or death. Really you are so afraid of cops killing you and such a law abiding citizen that you kept your pistol on your fucking lap during a traffic stop. No, you're a fucking dumbass and just won the dirt nap award for it.

I think people need to stop being stupid and wake up to the bullshit...


----------



## racing_kitty (Jul 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah to me, being uninformed in the ROE's it looks like they shot a dude in the chest point blank while his hands were being held.  I think that is what it looks like to a lot of Americans.



I was having a discussion about Baton Rouge on Facebook with someone the other night.  She was upset that I was withholding my opinion (judgment) until more video footage was released, meaning "I want to see the body cameras, other angles."  I found myself on the receiving end of a tirade about how "This isn't the NFL, you don't need extra videos, the one is enough!  It's high quality, it's not from the government, and it shows he was murdered."  I managed to explain that what may appear cut and dry from one angle may be quite the opposite from another angle.  It was only when I mentioned that it was possible that the body cameras could just as easily corroborate the cell phone video as disprove it that the uneducated estrogen parrot even thought to accept the body camera footage as evidence.  

A lot of Americans refuse to acknowledge evidence that would disprove their assumptions.  They want it to look a certain way, would rather choke in their sleep than be proven wrong, and fantasize about hurting those who would challenge their myopic perceptions.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 9, 2016)

racing_kitty said:


> I was having a discussion about Baton Rouge on Facebook with someone the other night.  She was upset that I was withholding my opinion (judgment) until more video footage was released, meaning "I want to see the body cameras, other angles."  I found myself on the receiving end of a tirade about how "This isn't the NFL, you don't need extra videos, the one is enough!  It's high quality, it's not from the government, and it shows he was murdered."  I managed to explain that what may appear cut and dry from one angle may be quite the opposite from another angle.  It was only when I mentioned that it was possible that the body cameras could just as easily corroborate the cell phone video as disprove it that the uneducated estrogen parrot even thought to accept the body camera footage as evidence.
> 
> A lot of Americans refuse to acknowledge evidence that would disprove their assumptions.  They want it to look a certain way, would rather choke in their sleep than be proven wrong, and fantasize about hurting those who would challenge their myopic perceptions.



I have seen it from two angles now. To me, it still looks bad. 

I said though I will wait for an investigation. I think it is silly to judge it now. But I for sure get it.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah to me, being uninformed in the ROE's it looks like they shot a dude in the chest point blank while his hands were being held.  I think that is what it looks like to a lot of Americans.


Right hand was free and he was reaching for his gun.
One of the Cops (sounds to me anyway) says gun, and the cop on the right starts shooting.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 9, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Right hand was free and he was reaching for his gun.
> One of the Cops (sounds to me anyway) says gun, and the cop on the right starts shooting.



Like I said, I'm no expert, it looked bad to me. If you are an expert then you know what's up.


----------



## policemedic (Jul 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Like I said, I'm no expert, it looked bad to me. If you are an expert then you know what's up.



The bigger question is why is expert opinion so casually disregarded ? Don't get me wrong--I know you're not doing this. But many people don't want to hear from those with actual knowledge, training, and experience because it conflicts with what they have been conditioned to believe.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 9, 2016)

policemedic said:


> The bigger question is why is expert opinion so casually disregarded ? Don't get me wrong--I know you're not doing this. But many people don't want to hear from those with actual knowledge, training, and experience because it conflicts with what they have been conditioned to believe.



That is what I want. I want to know why a guy on the ground being held down by two officers was shot in the chest. No taser? No spray? Why was the pistol out already before he was known to have a weapon? Why was one hand on a gun instead of contributing to the fight?

These are serious questions. I'm not trying to be obtuse.


----------



## Beagle (Jul 9, 2016)

Interesting....not sure it's true or not

Confirmed – Philando Castile Was an Armed Robbery Suspect – False Media Narrative Now Driving Cop Killings…

Saint Anthony, MN, Police Officers Jeronimo Yanez and Joseph Kauser pulled over Mr. Castile and Ms. Reynolds because the driver, Philando Castile, matched the suspect profile in an armed robbery which occurred on July 2nd, at a convenience store, only a few blocks from where their car was pulled over.


----------



## compforce (Jul 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> That is what I want. I want to know why a guy on the ground being held down by two officers was shot in the chest. No taser? No spray? Why was the pistol out already before he was known to have a weapon? Why was one hand on a gun instead of contributing to the fight?
> 
> These are serious questions. I'm not trying to be obtuse.



The angle I saw he was resisting and trying to get to the gun.  It happened quick, but that right hand is definitely reaching and he is most definitely not passive.  He didn't tap and the other guys kept going.  Good shoot.  FYI, the pistol didn't come out until after the officer on the left stated "he has a gun", probably a full second after.

Baton Rouge, I'll wait for the release of the dash cam.  The video making the rounds in the media are all after the fact.  We know he had a gun on his right hip and reached that way.  The main question is whether he had been instructed (after notifying the LEO) to present his ID.  If he notified the cop that he had a firearm and THEN the officer directed him to get his ID it's a bad shoot.  If he reached for the gun without warning or he didn't notify until after he was in motion, then good shoot.  From the bits on the video, there's no way to know.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> That is what I want. I want to know why a guy on the ground being held down by two officers was shot in the chest. No taser? No spray? Why was the pistol out already before he was known to have a weapon? Why was one hand on a gun instead of contributing to the fight?
> 
> These are serious questions. I'm not trying to be obtuse.



Would you trust the officers of the law and court to investigate and present the facts to a DA or grand jury and accept their decision? 

We as the public don't always get all the facts.


----------



## compforce (Jul 9, 2016)

Beagle said:


> Interesting....not sure it's true or not
> 
> Confirmed – Philando Castile Was an Armed Robbery Suspect – False Media Narrative Now Driving Cop Killings…
> 
> Saint Anthony, MN, Police Officers Jeronimo Yanez and Joseph Kauser pulled over Mr. Castile and Ms. Reynolds because the driver, Philando Castile, matched the suspect profile in an armed robbery which occurred on July 2nd, at a convenience store, only a few blocks from where their car was pulled over.




Possible, but there are a ton of assumptions in that article.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Jul 9, 2016)

Taser?  Spray?  Escalation of force.

You meet, or exceed, the force level that is presented to you.

Dude's being noncompliant on a stop on the street. Clear hands. Kerzap or PSSHT.
Dude being noncompliant with a known or suspected weapon, you're drawing down. If he's fighting with a known or suspected weapon, then the levels get raised.

Less than lethal/Less Lethal is not what you work through blindly. It's what you work through, and bypass, when the threat level dictates. This is shit I learned even as just a lowly armed guard.

Compliant subject. You talk.
Noncompliant and unarmed, requires apprehension, LL/LTL to bring into compliance and apprehend.
Noncompliant and armed, you go straight to gun, aimed until compliance or aimed and fired if the threat level is enough.  

Even LTL/LL you still back up with guns, because pepperspray doesn't do a whole lot, and tasers aren't always this magic fishflop box you can rely on.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 9, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> That is what I want. I want to know why a guy on the ground being held down by two officers was shot in the chest. No taser? No spray? Why was the pistol out already before he was known to have a weapon? Why was one hand on a gun instead of contributing to the fight?
> 
> These are serious questions. I'm not trying to be obtuse.


I thought the tazed him twice with no impact.
Will have to check again.


----------



## policemedic (Jul 9, 2016)

compforce said:


> The angle I saw he was resisting and trying to get to the gun.  It happened quick, but that right hand is definitely reaching and he is most definitely not passive.  He didn't tap and the other guys kept going.  Good shoot.  FYI, the pistol didn't come out until after the officer on the left stated "he has a gun", probably a full second after.
> 
> Minnesota, I'll wait for the release of the dash cam.  The video making the rounds in the media are all after the fact.  We know he had a gun on his right hip and reached that way.  The main question is whether he had been instructed (after notifying the LEO) to present his ID.  If he notified the cop that he had a firearm and THEN the officer directed him to get his ID it's a bad shoot.  If he reached for the gun without warning or he didn't notify until after he was in motion, then good shoot.  From the bits on the video, there's no way to know.



FIFY


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 9, 2016)

Ranger Psych said:


> Taser?  Spray?  Escalation of force.
> 
> You meet, or exceed, the force level that is presented to you.
> 
> ...



Cool. 

We have many experts here. 

I'm glad I get informed by them. One of my points was that is not how most people are getting info. To them they see something that looks jacked, they don't have training or understanding to realize that the force applied was neccesary. 

I'm going to wait to see if there is a grand jury, then I'll wait and see what those charges are.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 9, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Would you trust the officers of the law and court to investigate and present the facts to a DA or grand jury and accept their decision?
> 
> We as the public don't always get all the facts.



From the same department? I'd be hesitant.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 9, 2016)

I think the snap sounds at the two and six second marks are tasers.

Gun call is made and the officer puts the barrel in his chest, his right hand is still free.






Some still shots here

Second Alton Sterling Video Vindicates Cops


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 10, 2016)

I don't think anyone is vindicated until an investigation says so.


----------



## compforce (Jul 10, 2016)

policemedic said:


> FIFY



Thanks, been sampling a product for a new company I am considering opening...   Cocktail ice cream.  All the liquor of the cocktail, but in ice cream form...


----------



## policemedic (Jul 10, 2016)

compforce said:


> Thanks, been sampling a product for a new company I am considering opening...   Cocktail ice cream.  All the liquor of the cocktail, but in ice cream form...



Did you bring enough for the rest of the class?


----------



## Rapid (Jul 10, 2016)

There's a photo circulating of the shitbag right after the explosives were detonated.


----------



## Brill (Jul 10, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> First off RIP to all involved, and speedy recoveries to those being treated currently.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



I think most Americans are upset by the MSM spin associated with the "news" from the events.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 10, 2016)

Rapid said:


> There's a photo circulating of the shitbag right after the explosives were detonated.


UK Papers?
(I could use a pick me upper today)


----------



## Rapid (Jul 10, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> UK Papers?
> (I could use a pick me upper today)



Click here. NSFW of course.


----------



## Rapid (Jul 10, 2016)

https://i.sli.mg/ghYIq5.png

lol Obama.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jul 10, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> I'm going to wait to see if there is a grand jury, then I'll wait and see what those charges are.



There is always a grand jury on police shootings.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jul 10, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> There is always a grand jury on police shootings.



Cool. We will see what they say.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 10, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> There is always a grand jury on police shootings.



Not necessarily true.  In fact County Attorney Mike Freeman made the decision that police shootings would no longer be reviewed by a grand jury in Hennepin County.

The irony is, when this was announced after the Jamar Clark shooting, the Black Lives Matter groups were thrilled:

_"I am overjoyed that in this instance Mike Freeman decided to do the right thing," said* Nekima Levy-Pounds*, president of the Minneapolis NAACP. "Mike Freeman is fully aware that the grand jury process has been ineffective here and nationally in holding officers accountable. I believe sustained community pressure played a huge role in Mike Freeman's decision."
_
Hennepin County to stop using grand juries in officer-involved shootings


But...


- to say they were 'un-thrilled' when the Hennepin County Attorney filed no charges against officers in the Jamar Clark shooting, would be an understatement.

_Minneapolis NAACP President *Nekima Levy-Pounds* shook with emotion as she called for a “paradigm shift.”  “We are in a land of disparities and a land in which we are treated like second-class citizens,” she said. “No matter how hard we try, no matter how hard we pound the pavement, no matter how much we lift our voices, they don’t want to give us justice.”
_
Feds say no civil rights prosecution in Jamar Clark's death

To Add:  Since this most recent shooting took place in Ramsey County, I believe that a grand jury will be convened.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Jul 10, 2016)

A facebook post from a Black Police Officer in Florida, he was formerly an officer in Baltimore.

Jay Stalien - I have come to realize something that is... | Facebook


----------



## nobodythank you (Jul 10, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Jay Stalien - I have come to realize something that is... | Facebook


Excellent posting. I think one specific segment bears repeating, and remembering to those that roll their eyes when told if you were not there, or have not been trained, you know nothing. As mentioned before, wait for the facts.



> I realized that this country is full of ignorance, where an educated individual will watch the ratings-driven news media, and watch a couple YouTube video clips, and then come to the conclusion that they have all the knowledge they need to have in order to know what it feels like to have a bullet proof vest as part of your office equipment, “Stay Alive” as part of your daily to do list, and having insurance for your health insurance because of the high rate of death in your profession. They watch a couple videos and then they magically know in 2 minutes 35 seconds, how you are supposed to handle a violent encounter, which took you 6 months of Academy training, 2 – 3 months of field training, and countless years of blood, sweat, tears and broken bones experiencing violent encounters and fine tuning your execution of the Use of Force Continuum.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jul 10, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Not necessarily true.  In fact County Attorney Mike Freeman made the decision that police shootings would no longer be reviewed by a grand jury in Hennepin County.



Interesting....but maybe not a good idea.  Full investigation of the incident then Grand Jury review...is really the only way to go.

Anyway...it is a standard in Texas.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jul 10, 2016)

So...early this AM, a gun store in Waxahachie, Texas....just south of Dallas, was burglarized, about 17 guns taken.

"Waxahachie police say just before 3 a.m., multiple suspects stole a truck and used it to ram into the wall of Shooter's Edge, located along U.S. 287, just west of U.S. 77."

"The ATF says 12 handguns, 3 AR style high powered rifles, 1AK style high powered rifle and 1 shotgun were reported stolen"

This ain't good....

Suspects at-large after gun store robbed in Waxahachie


----------



## policemedic (Jul 10, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> There is always a grand jury on police shootings.



Not so in all places.  I can't remember the last (first?) time that was used in PA.  It's an option, but the DA historically makes the call to charge or not.  And yes, sometimes the decision to arrest and charge is made.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 10, 2016)

Some agencies have regional review panel's for UOF. Generally they will have members of the community, officers from other agencies,  lawyers, etc. But in Texas, all homicides (justified or not) go to the grand jury.


----------



## SpitfireV (Jul 10, 2016)

As a general interest bit of tidbit. Police shootings here are investigated by the IPCA (IPCA - Independent Police Conduct Authority of New Zealand), by the police and by the Coroner. The IPCA will recommend charges or not to the police who will also come to their own independent decision if need be. The Coroner is obviously there in case of death so might not be involved for a non-fatal shooting.

Example of an IPCA report into a shooting during a hostage rescue at a hotel.

http://www.ipca.govt.nz/includes/download.aspx?ID=135477

I don't put this out here as a "we're better" post or anything like that but rather to compare a slightly different way of doing it.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jul 11, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> So...early this AM, a gun store in Waxahachie, Texas....just south of Dallas, was burglarized, about 17 guns taken.
> 
> "Waxahachie police say just before 3 a.m., multiple suspects stole a truck and used it to ram into the wall of Shooter's Edge, located along U.S. 287, just west of U.S. 77."
> 
> ...



Yup, nothing good at all. There was no mention of ammo being taken. Given the ammo shortage, I'll bet they grabbed ammo as well.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 11, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Yup, nothing good at all. There was no mention of ammo being taken. Given the ammo shortage, I'll bet they grabbed ammo as well.


Maybe not.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 11, 2016)

*Observation A - *
For today I am going to suppress my natural cynicism and choose to believe this happened exactly the way it is depicted in the video and that it will last more that 5 minutes.

*Observation** B - *
How come everytime a bunch of rednecks get together, they insist on flying the Marine Corps flag along with their other ones?

ETA - Yes, I know I've opened myself up to myriad of Marine jokes, but it is something I have noticed.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10155021168221509


----------



## nobodythank you (Jul 11, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> *Observation** B -*
> How come everytime a bunch of rednecks get together, they insist on flying the Marine Corps flag along with their other ones?


Marines and corn holing go together like PBnJ? :troll:

/Alltheway

ETA: great post though. Glad to see that happen.


----------



## Marine0311 (Jul 11, 2016)

Dallas police chief says ‘we’re asking cops to do too much in this country’

_*We’re asking cops to do too much in this country,” Brown said at a briefing Monday. “We are. Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve. Not enough mental health funding, let the cops handle it. Here in Dallas we got a loose dog problem; let’s have the cops chase loose dogs. Schools fail, let’s give it to the cops. That’s too much to ask. Policing was never meant to solve all those problems.”

*_
I do like this quote the best. 

What say you others cops on here? @policemedic ?


----------



## policemedic (Jul 11, 2016)

I think he's right. In large part we function at the intersection of law enforcement, social work and criminology. 

Sometimes I think it's the policing equivalent of painting rocks.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jul 11, 2016)

His observation regarding the reduction in funding mental health needs, criminalizes the mentally ill. It puts LEOs in a very bad position. If there is a health care issue that is just screaming for help, it is the lack of care for peoples in need of care, not incarceration.


----------



## AWP (Jul 11, 2016)

policemedic said:


> Sometimes I think it's the policing equivalent of painting rocks.



False. Painted rocks denote order.

#WhiteRocksMatter


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jul 11, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> False. Painted rocks denote order.
> 
> #WhiteRocksMatter



Time to check Free's air mixture again.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jul 11, 2016)

Marine0311 said:


> Dallas police chief says ‘we’re asking cops to do too much in this country’
> 
> _*We’re asking cops to do too much in this country,” Brown said at a briefing Monday. “We are. Every societal failure, we put it off on the cops to solve. Not enough mental health funding, let the cops handle it. Here in Dallas we got a loose dog problem; let’s have the cops chase loose dogs. Schools fail, let’s give it to the cops. That’s too much to ask. Policing was never meant to solve all those problems.”
> 
> ...



I agree......we seem to be the catch all.

I like that Chief Brown told USSS that DPD cannot be the lead on the Obama protection....that DPD is tapped out.  Arlington PD is taking the lead.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jul 11, 2016)

and it continues.....Two Court Baliffs shot and killed at court house, suspect killed.

2 bailiffs, shooter dead in Berrien County Courthouse shooting

Rest in Peace brothers.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 11, 2016)

...related to officer shootings.  Just happened today:

Two bailiffs, gunman dead in shooting at Michigan courthouse, sheriff says | Fox News

ETA - Sorry @Kraut783 - we must have hit send at the same time.


----------



## Brill (Jul 11, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> #WhiteRocksMatter



OMG.

Who We Are | BlackRock


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jul 11, 2016)

To give you an idea of just how acute the need for mental care is, we need to go back in time. In the'30s, '40s, '50s & '60s there were state run mental health hospitals. To give you an example of what kind of numbers we are talking about, think back to Jack Nicholson, and Nurse Ratchett in the movie, "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest". That was filmed at Pilgrim State Hospital on Long Island NY. The patient population was right around 6,000 patients who had bed space in that hospital, and just a part of the New York State Department of Mental Health. My home town had a similar NYSDMH with an average bed count of 2,500. There were several other DMH facilities throughout NY State. Most states had similar facilities, it was the state of the art at the time.

These facilities were all self sustaining, and required nothing from the cities they were near. They had their own farms, my dad ran a 3,000 plus acre farm that fed the patients, and staff. They had their own cows, pigs, beef cattle, laundries, carpenters, mattress shop, bakeries, orchards, quarters for MD's, Nurses, Attendants, power plants, police/fire Dept, Nursing Schools, Recreation Dept, Bowling alleys, indoor , swimming pools, auditoriums...and so on. Some patients were locked inside the hospital 24/7 because they were too unstable to let outside; they were seen an threats to themselves and others. Many patients were allowed to be out on the hospital grounds, and they were inside at night. The hospital grounds covered thousands of acres of land, and hundreds of buildings.

In the late 50's and early 60's health care was changed with the advent of tranquilizer meds like Thorazine, Mellaril, Stelazine, and a few others. These meds allowed for patients who were stable enough to actually work, supervised, on the farm, bakery, and other facility shops. There were patients who needed 24/7 attention and could not care for themselves, and they were pretty much warehoused at the hospitals. Still others were simply too violent to be allowed outside of locked doors. The trend, however was to get as many patients out of locked wards, and cost less to care for. Politicians, and "citizens groups" were appalled that patients were learning to farm, work in a laundry, or bakery, etc.,etc. One of the early problems was, that if the patients left to manage for themselves, most were noncompliant with their meds, and would backslide to needing inside care for a few weeks. That still happens today, everyday. The bottom line here is that these were patients of the DMH, and did not interface the locals, or the police. The cities near these hospitals were largely unaware of the number of patients that were being treated.

Jump ahead to today. The percentage of patients requiring mental health care, or have significant mental health issues, are pretty much the same. With the advent of more, and newer psychotropic drugs, fewer beds are thought to be needed than 40-50 years ago. Today the percentage of beds available for inpatient mental health care needs, do not match the number of patients needing them. The bulk of the mental health care is outpatient, on what is really a skeleton crew of mental health workers. The states are not spending the money needed to house the patients needing inpatient hospital beds; they just are not there. The last time I was home that 2,500 bed facility was down to one building to provide bed space for 50 mentally ill patients. That is down from around 12  buildings.

Today, when a patient stops taking his meds for too long, he winds up in jail because of his behavior. That means LEOs to arrest, incarcerate and "care" for the mentally ill. To place someone in a locked mental health facility requires a court order, and it expires at the 72 hour mark. Many of the psychoactive meds we have today, can take up to a week to see the full clinical effects. Judges are reluctant to keep people behind locked doors because of the loss of liberties to the mentally ill. That said, three days after arrest, the person is back on the streets, with a pocket full of meds. They trade the meds for alcohol, and the cycle begins all over again. If you want to reduce the LEO's workload, start paying for treatment of the communities mentally ill. It will create jobs, and get people the care they need. Some how all of the great political health care program have ignored the mental health issue. It requires money, attention to detail, and people to care for people; not bitch about them. For me this is :wall::wall::wall:.


----------



## Rapid (Jul 11, 2016)

Just read this: "the extension arm of the robot was damaged, but the robot is still functional."

Robot Lives Matter.


----------



## Salt USMC (Jul 11, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> To give you an idea of just how acute the need for mental care is, we need to go back in time. In the'30s, '40s, '50s & '60s there were state run mental health hospitals. To give you an example of what kind of numbers we are talking about, think back to Jack Nicholson, and Nurse Ratchett in the movie, "One Flew Over The Cuckoo's Nest". That was filmed at Pilgrim State Hospital on Long Island NY. The patient population was right around 6,000 patients who had bed space in that hospital, and just a part of the New York State Department of Mental Health. My home town had a similar NYSDMH with an average bed count of 2,500. There were several other DMH facilities throughout NY State. Most states had similar facilities, it was the state of the art at the time.
> 
> These facilities were all self sustaining, and required nothing from the cities they were near. They had their own farms, my dad ran a 3,000 plus acre farm that fed the patients, and staff. They had their own cows, pigs, beef cattle, laundries, carpenters, mattress shop, bakeries, orchards, quarters for MD's, Nurses, Attendants, power plants, police/fire Dept, Nursing Schools, Recreation Dept, Bowling alleys, indoor , swimming pools, auditoriums...and so on. Some patients were locked inside the hospital 24/7 because they were too unstable to let outside; they were seen an threats to themselves and others. Many patients were allowed to be out on the hospital grounds, and they were inside at night. The hospital grounds covered thousands of acres of land, and hundreds of buildings.
> 
> ...


Incredibly well-said.  And you can thank Reagan for being the catalyst for this mess: Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness


----------



## Kraut783 (Jul 11, 2016)

To add to Red Flags statement....In Texas, law enforcement can take a person into custody for a mental evaluation if they pose a danger to himself or others....threatening suicide...etc, no warrant or order needed, just an affidavit from the officer.  Many years ago several counties created LEO mental health units that were trained in dealing with emotionally disturbed / mental health persons and would respond to incidents....of course as time goes by, funding goes away....not many of these units left.  

Another issue local law enforcement has to deal with....knowing the mental health doc doing the review would punt them out at the end of the clock.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Jul 11, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Incredibly well-said.  And you can thank Reagan for being the catalyst for this mess: Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness



The ground work for this predated Reagan by quite a bit. Think Medicare, Medicade and LBJ's Great Society. In early '69, NY State's Gov was Rockefeller. He had spent the money he was sure he was going to get on a "Transportation Bond". The voters nixed the Bond Issue, and they could not pay the staff at some of the State Hospitals. Patients were moved from the NYC area to Upstate NY  where they could still afford to pay the employees. There was talk of NY State Troopers actually inside the hospitals to help out. The families of patients were being phoned and pleaded with to take their family members home from the hospital for a few weeks. Many of them did not come back to the hospitals; and the domino effect had begun.


----------



## DA SWO (Jul 11, 2016)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Incredibly well-said.  And you can thank Reagan for being the catalyst for this mess: Ronald Reagan’s shameful legacy: Violence, the homeless, mental illness


Two Democratic Presidents could have reversed this , but didn't.
Why do you think they did nothing?


----------



## AWP (Jul 11, 2016)

In high school my psych class took a tour of a nearby mental health institution. Either they should have a LOT more money or they should be shuttered, leveled, and the earth salted. No human being should live like that. I'm sure there are others in far better condition, but that place was nightmare fuel and the State of FL saw nothing wrong.


----------



## nobodythank you (Jul 11, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> To add to Red Flags statement....In Texas, law enforcement can take a person into custody for a mental evaluation if they pose a danger to himself or others....threatening suicide...etc, no warrant or order needed, just an affidavit from the officer.  Many years ago several counties created LEO mental health units that were trained in dealing with emotionally disturbed / mental health persons and would respond to incidents....of course as time goes by, funding goes away....not many of these units left.
> 
> Another issue local law enforcement has to deal with....knowing the mental health doc doing the review would punt them out at the end of the clock.


The same is true in Florida in what is known as a Baker Act. Florida has a similar act for substance abuse known as a Marchman Act. In both cases the receiving facility has 72 hours with which to evaluate the patient to be committed or released. Unfortunately, many receiving facilities would release them within 24 hours instead of holding them for a proper evaluation. To be fair, sometimes the facilities were inundated with patients and had to turn them around quickly. 

I don't know if Florida still has them, but they used to have similarly trained teams to deal with mental health related cases. They were known as Crisis Intervention Teams, and they worked in concert with the local mental health facilities to better provide services for mentally ill patients in lieu of criminal penalties.


----------



## policemedic (Jul 11, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> ...related to officer shootings.  Just happened today:
> 
> Two bailiffs, gunman dead in shooting at Michigan courthouse, sheriff says | Fox News
> 
> ETA - Sorry @Kraut783 - we must have hit send at the same time.



RIP, brothers.


----------



## compforce (Jul 11, 2016)

ke4gde said:


> The same is true in Florida in what is known as a Baker Act. Florida has a similar act for substance abuse known as a Marchman Act. In both cases the receiving facility has 72 hours with which to evaluate the patient to be committed or released. Unfortunately, many receiving facilities would release them within 24 hours instead of holding them for a proper evaluation. To be fair, sometimes the facilities were inundated with patients and had to turn them around quickly.
> 
> I don't know if Florida still has them, but they used to have similarly trained teams to deal with mental health related cases. They were known as Crisis Intervention Teams, and they worked in concert with the local mental health facilities to better provide services for mentally ill patients in lieu of criminal penalties.



They have CIT's at the PDs here in the Atlanta suburbs.

Personally, I think that institutionalizing would be a nightmare today.  I believe that the use of medication in place of supervision is ridiculous, both for the mentally ill and for children (ritalin rather than parenting).  That said, the legal climate is such that a return to wholesale institutionalizing of the mentally ill would result in a never ending series of lawsuits that we, the taxpayers, would have to pay for.  Even if the institutions followed the same standards of care and conditions as medical hospitals, there would always be use of force issues, medication selection issues and such.


----------



## Salt USMC (Jul 11, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Two Democratic Presidents could have reversed this , but didn't.
> Why do you think they did nothing?


Three words: "Tough on crime"


----------



## Rapid (Jul 12, 2016)

http://www.nytimes.com/2016/07/12/u...e-use-of-force-but-not-in-shootings.html?_r=2
*
Surprising New Evidence Shows Bias in Police Use of Force but Not in Shootings*



> But when it comes to the most lethal form of force — police shootings — the study finds no racial bias.
> 
> “It is the most surprising result of my career,” said Roland G. Fryer Jr., the author of the study and a professor of economics at Harvard. The study examined more than 1,000 shootings in 10 major police departments, in Texas, Florida and California.
> 
> The result contradicts the image of police shootings that many Americans hold after the killings (some captured on video) of Michael Brown in Ferguson, Mo.; Tamir Rice in Cleveland; Walter Scott in South Carolina; Alton Sterling in Baton Rouge, La.; and Philando Castile in Minnesota.


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## policemedic (Jul 12, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> To add to Red Flags statement....In Texas, law enforcement can take a person into custody for a mental evaluation if they pose a danger to himself or others....threatening suicide...etc, no warrant or order needed, just an affidavit from the officer.  Many years ago several counties created LEO mental health units that were trained in dealing with emotionally disturbed / mental health persons and would respond to incidents....of course as time goes by, funding goes away....not many of these units left.
> 
> Another issue local law enforcement has to deal with....knowing the mental health doc doing the review would punt them out at the end of the clock.



We can do the same, although here in the Commonwealth our authority is limited in terms of how much time you can be held against your will for mental health purposes.  We can take a citizen against their will to a designated crisis response center, where the law requires that a psychiatrist evaluate them within two hours of arrival.  The evaluation can take as long as the physician deems necessary, but at its conclusion the doc can decide that outpatient treatment is appropriate and release them.  If they decide inpatient treatment is required and the patient refuses to sign in, then the first involuntary committal is for a period of 5 days, and the courts become involved to protect the patient's rights as well as society's vested interest in keeping dangerous folks off the streets.  The police do not have the authority to commit someone for any longer than it takes the physician to complete their assessment.

We adopted the CIT concept here a few years ago.  There's a weeklong training program that is required before you join CIT, and basically very few people were interested in delving into mental health that deeply.  The Taser became the carrot; if you want to carry a Taser (and be issued a personal one) then you must volunteer for CIT.  All mental health calls are supposed to go to CIT members--we're specifically identified in the CAD--but it doesn't always work that way.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 12, 2016)

policemedic said:


> We adopted the CIT concept here a few years ago.  There's a weeklong training program that is required before you join CIT, and basically very few people were interested in delving into mental health that deeply.  The Taser became the carrot; if you want to carry a Taser (and be issued a personal one) then you must volunteer for CIT.  All mental health calls are supposed to go to CIT members--we're specifically identified in the CAD--but it doesn't always work that way.



I like it


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 12, 2016)

policemedic said:


> We can do the same, although here in the Commonwealth our authority is limited in terms of how much time you can be held against your will for mental health purposes.  We can take a citizen against their will to a designated crisis response center, where the law requires that a psychiatrist evaluate them within two hours of arrival.  The evaluation can take as long as the physician deems necessary, but at its conclusion the doc can decide that outpatient treatment is appropriate and release them.  If they decide inpatient treatment is required and the patient refuses to sign in, then the first involuntary committal is for a period of 5 days, and the courts become involved to protect the patient's rights as well as society's vested interest in keeping dangerous folks off the streets.  The police do not have the authority to commit someone for any longer than it takes the physician to complete their assessment.
> 
> We adopted the CIT concept here a few years ago.  There's a weeklong training program that is required before you join CIT, and basically very few people were interested in delving into mental health that deeply.  The Taser became the carrot; if you want to carry a Taser (and be issued a personal one) then you must volunteer for CIT.  All mental health calls are supposed to go to CIT members--we're specifically identified in the CAD--but it doesn't always work that way.



I like the five days, it gives the psych unit more time to evaluate, and verify the patient's history against employers and family. 

Do you have any trouble with bed shortages?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 12, 2016)

CIT has saved a lot of lives. It's probably one of the best programs in LE, next to the negotiators (SWAT & community). $.02


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## policemedic (Jul 12, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I like the five days, it gives the psych unit more time to evaluate, and verify the patient's history against employers and family.
> 
> Do you have any trouble with bed shortages?



Not in the acute phase, but long-term care can sometimes be problematic.  That said, and circling back to what you've said, not many people end up in long-term inpatient settings.  There's a legal mechanism for it but here as elsewhere once their meds have reached therapeutic levels it's not unusual to discharge them.  That does mitigate any problem with bed availability but often creates a revolving door into the system when the patient decides the side effects of the psych meds outweigh their benefit.  And let's not forget, it's not always about avoiding the side effects, sometimes people just like the way they feel when they're symptomatic and so choose to stop taking their meds.


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## Marine0311 (Jul 12, 2016)

policemedic said:


> I think he's right. In large part we function at the intersection of law enforcement, social work and criminology.
> 
> Sometimes I think it's the policing equivalent of painting rocks.



Do you agree and what would you change?


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 12, 2016)

...sigh...

And this is why this shit will never end.

_"We need to abolish the police, period. Demilitarize the police, disarm the police, and we need to come up with community solutions for transformative justice." — Jessica Disu, a community activist said on last night's 'The Kelly File._


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## Muppet (Jul 12, 2016)

Fuck her. When she is getting raped, hope she can holla for a gang banger to help her. Pray for anarchy, cry when you get it. Just wait. It's coming...

M.


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 12, 2016)

So four off-duty LEOs are on the Minnesota Lynx security detail.  The other night they walked off the job when the team walked onto the court with Black Lives Matters shirts.  The shirts did have the DPD and DART badges on them.

Lynx ditch protest shirts after police walkout


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 12, 2016)

@ThunderHorse - Minneapolis PD have always had a hate/hate relationship with this mayor...recent events, and rhetoric, (from both sides) have not helped:
_
Minneapolis Police Federation President Bob Kroll, who said in an interview with the Star Tribune on Monday that he commended the officers for leaving their post and predicted other officers would refuse to work games.  He also said only four officers worked the Saturday game because the Lynx (WNBA) are a “pathetic draw.”_

_Mayor Hodges wrote, “Bob Kroll’s remarks about the Lynx are jackass remarks. Let me be clear: labor leadership inherently does not speak on behalf of management. Bob Kroll sure as hell doesn’t speak for me about the Lynx or about anything else.”_

Mayor Hodges blasts 'jackass remarks' by union chief over Lynx police walkout


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 13, 2016)

policemedic said:


> Not in the acute phase, but long-term care can sometimes be problematic.  That said, and circling back to what you've said, not many people end up in long-term inpatient settings.  There's a legal mechanism for it but here as elsewhere once their meds have reached therapeutic levels it's not unusual to discharge them.  That does mitigate any problem with bed availability but often creates a revolving door into the system when the patient decides the side effects of the psych meds outweigh their benefit.  And let's not forget, it's not always about avoiding the side effects, sometimes people just like the way they feel when they're symptomatic and so choose to stop taking their meds.



Thanks for the feedback. You are right about the side effects from some of the psychoactive meds. Side effects can include trouble walking, fatigue and often there in impotency as well. To be honest, If I had to take some of the meds, I'd prolly have trouble staying compliant too. Most of the people alive today, have no idea how bad things were prior to the psychoactive meds.

Often, patients were treated with prefrontal lobotomies, Electro Convulsive Therapy (ECT, is still used for severe Depression), Insulin Shock Therapy. Patients were also physically dealt with to prevent attacks on other patients and staff, Straight jackets, and Cold Sheet therapy. Sometimes a fist in the face was all an employee could do to maintain order. Things that happened on what were the "Violent Wards" were very fluid in the pre medicine days.

Things have changed drastically, and outpatient care is effective for mentally ill patients. keeping people on their meds is a constant challenge.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 13, 2016)

Preach it Sir Charles!

Charles Barkley: Black people have 'to do better'


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 13, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> ...sigh...
> 
> And this is why this shit will never end.
> 
> _"We need to abolish the police, period. Demilitarize the police, disarm the police, and we need to come up with community solutions for transformative justice." — Jessica Disu, a community activist said on last night's 'The Kelly File._



I wonder how widespread this lady's thinking is? How about we ask our military to lay down their arms, aircraft, and naval vessels. WTF is "transformative justice"? Is it like political correctness?

These people will be voting in Nov.


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## Brill (Jul 13, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> These people will be voting in Nov.



I have no doubt they, and many others who's names appear on headstones all over the US, already have cast their votes...probably multiple times too.


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## policemedic (Jul 13, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I wonder how widespread this lady's thinking is? How about we ask our military to lay down their arms, aircraft, and naval vessels. WTF is "transformative justice"? Is it like political correctness?
> 
> These people will be voting in Nov.



Anarchy. That's what groups like this want. Anarchy and mob rule.


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## CDG (Jul 13, 2016)

policemedic said:


> Anarchy. That's what groups like this want. Anarchy and mob rule.



Until they get it.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 14, 2016)

CDG said:


> Until they get it.



I'm waiting.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 14, 2016)

...sigh...

Pause for a brief moment of levity -


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## Salt USMC (Jul 14, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I wonder how widespread this lady's thinking is? How about we ask our military to lay down their arms, aircraft, and naval vessels. WTF is "transformative justice"? Is it like political correctness?
> 
> These people will be voting in Nov.


It's fringe.  Most people on the left don't take issue with the concept of policing, but rather the manner in which we conduct policing.  It's easy to take these bombastic statements and say "Look!  Look at these crazy loons!" but they do not represent the zeitgeist.


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## BloodStripe (Jul 15, 2016)

USFF Force Protection Advisory Message

Now that it is publicly available. July 16 appears to be a big day for protests
 Stay frosty out there.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 15, 2016)

A lot of demonstrations are going on tonight for the "Day of Unrest" that Anonymous is pushing.

There is another BLM demonstration scheduled for downtown Dallas tonight at Daly Plaza...


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## DA SWO (Jul 15, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> A lot of demonstrations are going on tonight for the "Day of Unrest" that Anonymous is pushing.
> 
> There is another BLM demonstration scheduled for downtown Dallas tonight at Daly Plaza...


Cops should stay out of sight.


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## macNcheese (Jul 16, 2016)

He makes a pretty good point.


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## Salt USMC (Jul 16, 2016)

I am shocked, absolutely SHOCKED that the capital-A Anonymous video and leaked tweets about the "Days of Rage" were completely full of shit!  Shocked, I tell you!


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## AWP (Jul 16, 2016)

I have to say, I'm a little surprised at this given some of the athlete activism we hear about in the news.

Cam Newton's father reminds tourney participants that 'Every 1 Matters'



> “I spoke about it in our orientation period, that there’s a responsibility that needs to be met out on both sides of the aisle,’’ said the elder Newton, a pastor in Atlanta. “From the pedestrian to the police officers, we’ve all got to find common ground to work this thing out. It’s tragic for whatever happens.
> 
> “We just need to start orientating athletes to being obedient to laws and people of authority and not take things for granted so much.’’
> 
> ...


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## AWP (Jul 21, 2016)

This is what it looks like when an EOD robot blows its load.

http://wtop.com/national/2016/07/damage-shown-from-blast-that-stopped-police-killing-sniper/slide/3/


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## compforce (Jul 21, 2016)

So I am as pro-LEO as any, but I'm having a really hard time with this one...

South Florida police shoot autistic man's caretaker as he lies in street | Fox News


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 21, 2016)

compforce said:


> So I am as pro-LEO as any, but I'm having a really hard time with this one...
> 
> South Florida police shoot autistic man's caretaker as he lies in street | Fox News



What perfect timing:wall:. So  what does the BLM movement have for us now?

Anyone else think this will cost more LOE worries, perhaps more officer's lives?


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## nobodythank you (Jul 21, 2016)

compforce said:


> So I am as pro-LEO as any, but I'm having a really hard time with this one...
> 
> South Florida police shoot autistic man's caretaker as he lies in street | Fox News


I cannot recall the outlet that reported it, but it is alleged that when the gentleman that was shot asked the officer why he shot him, the officer responded that he didn't know. It certainly looks bad for the officer involved. I would guess that the cost to other LEOs will depend on how the agency handles the investigation and how it is received by the community.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 21, 2016)

compforce said:


> So I am as pro-LEO as any, but I'm having a really hard time with this one...
> 
> South Florida police shoot autistic man's caretaker as he lies in street | Fox News



Thinking AD....sucks, and horrible timing


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## AWP (Jul 21, 2016)




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## ThunderHorse (Jul 21, 2016)

ke4gde said:


> I cannot recall the outlet that reported it, but it is alleged that when the gentleman that was shot asked the officer why he shot him, the officer responded that he didn't know. It certainly looks bad for the officer involved. I would guess that the cost to other LEOs will depend on how the agency handles the investigation and how it is received by the community.



Well if the same standard that Comey applied to Clinton still applies nothing happens.

However, I'd like his badge and maybe some time  behind bars.


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## pardus (Jul 21, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> Thinking AD....sucks, and horrible timing



Then that dumb cunt needs to be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 21, 2016)

What if he'd shot the autistic kid? Also, whoever that asshole was who called 911 needs to smacked and fined.


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## TLDR20 (Jul 21, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> What if he'd shot the autistic kid? Also, whoever that asshole was who called 911 needs to smacked and fined.



Why? Please explain. If he thought he saw a gun, and someone acting funny, I don't blame him.


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 21, 2016)

Oh so citizens should just call because they see something shiny in someone's hand?  Nope.  That person wasted resources by not taking a second glance or listening.  

But, that cop is responsible, I hope he turned in his badge and gun.


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## nobodythank you (Jul 22, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Well if the same standard that Comey applied to Clinton still applies nothing happens.
> 
> However, I'd like his badge and maybe some time  behind bars.


I disagree only because I don't think, based on the available info, that he deserves jail time unless there was malice behind it. Lose his job? maybe. Prison? No way. No one died and the opportunity here for a lesson and healing is incredible for the agency involved. Cops are not perfect, and while they should be held to a high standard, I don't believe this one warrants a man's life to be ruined when no one was killed. YMMV


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## policemedic (Jul 22, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Oh so citizens should just call because they see something shiny in someone's hand?  Nope.  That person wasted resources by not taking a second glance or listening.
> 
> But, that cop is responsible, I hope he turned in his badge and gun.



I would prefer that people see something and say something, as it were.  It does generate some calls that turn out to be unfounded but that's better than missing something important.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 22, 2016)

If I saw some weird shit happening in the street I'd probably call the cops too.


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## AWP (Jul 22, 2016)

ke4gde said:


> I disagree only because I don't think, based on the available info, that he deserves jail time unless there was malice behind it. Lose his job? maybe. Prison? No way. No one died and the opportunity here for a lesson and healing is incredible for the agency involved. Cops are not perfect, and while they should be held to a high standard, I don't believe this one warrants a man's life to be ruined when no one was killed. YMMV



I'd side with lose his job. What about the possibility of a civil suit or would that fall upon his department and not him as an individual?


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## compforce (Jul 22, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I'd side with lose his job. What about the possibility of a civil suit or would that fall upon his department and not him as an individual?



That's a good question.  I would have to assume there is some kind of insurance that indemnifies officers against this kind of thing.  LEO's, what say you?  Is there insurance that covers accidental discharge that causes injury?

Honestly, given the climate right now, the city will have no choice but to pursue the maximum disciplinary action consistent with the facts, whether that is discharge from service or criminal charges.  If they do anything less, they will definitely put other LEO's in more danger of continuing incidents.  Even if they pursue the maximum, they will likely face some level of increased risk to the force.  The people that are protesting, rioting and/or targeting police have not shown a rational side that will allow them to say "yeah, that punishment was enough".  We'll also likely see more fuel thrown on the fire by the Commander in Chief.

eta: IMO the best course of action for the city would be to file criminal charges and hang it up in the courts in the hopes that by the time it comes to trial the current protests have ended.  If it drags out long enough, an acquittal could be minor news and slip through the cracks unnoticed by the masses.


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## nobodythank you (Jul 22, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I'd side with lose his job. What about the possibility of a civil suit or would that fall upon his department and not him as an individual?


The risk of a civil suit comes with the territory for the city/agency. Likely the city will seek a healthy settlement to avoid going to trial. I disagree with @compforce in filing charges to appease the crowds. That is what happened in Baltimore. That sets a precedent for mob rule in lieu of the rule of law within the community. Additionally, it shows a lack of support for the agency and ultimately the officers.


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 22, 2016)

Gross Negligence...charges.  Done.  Even if it's a suspended sentence.

LEOs, do you have Professional Education and Training similar to what we have in the military once you reach a certain grade?  One of my friends posted about this stating that it was quite necessary.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 22, 2016)

compforce said:


> So I am as pro-LEO as any, but I'm having a really hard time with this one...
> 
> South Florida police shoot autistic man's caretaker as he lies in street | Fox News



Yeah this 100% a bad shoot, and I expect the officer will be fired,  will probably be charged with some form of a deadly conduct charge (in Texas it's a misdemeanor) receive probaton and lose his peace officer commission. Civil suit to follow,  he will be sued, the city will be sued, the city will probably settle and the officer will lose all his shit. End up driving a truck for living, or suck starting a pistol is normally  next.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 22, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Gross Negligence...charges.  Done.  Even if it's a suspended sentence.
> 
> LEOs, do you have Professional Education and Training similar to what we have in the military once you reach a certain grade?  One of my friends posted about this stating that it was quite necessary.



We have mandated State training over various topics every year, on top of our departments training.  Usually, use of force, legal update of new laws, active shooter, defensive tactics, tactical driving, investigations, first aid, new department general orders...etc, and whatever hot topics come up.  The training is mandatory for every sworn officer, regardless of rank.

Sergeants have to take a supervisors course when promoted. Lieutenants have to take a more advanced supervisor course once promoted, as well as Captains.  Asst. Chiefs do some admin courses.

Officers and detectives can participate in Alternative Career Ladder (ACL), which is basically studying different police related fields, then take test on the course material. It's voluntary, but pay extra dough per level of ACL.

Edit: let me add this is all the basic stuff and not all encompassing....differs from department to department...with the State mandating certain training to try and keep all the departments consistent in some things.  There is further training/schools that officers attend..Homicide investigation, sexual assault investigation, basic SWAT, advanced SWAT...etc.

You have to balance the training with staffing full patrol shifts and detectives....it can be hard, Police don't have the luxury of rotating from mission to training cycles as a whole.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 22, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> We have mandated State training over various topics every year, on top of our departments training.  Usually, use of force, legal update of new laws, active shooter, defensive tactics, tactical driving, investigations, first aid, new department general orders...etc, and whatever hot topics come up.  The training is mandatory for every sworn officer, regardless of rank.
> 
> Sergeants have to take a supervisors course when promoted. Lieutenants have to take a more advanced supervisor course once promoted, as well as Captains.  Asst. Chiefs do some admin courses.
> 
> Officers and detectives can participate in Alternative Career Ladder (ACL), which is basically studying different police related fields, then take test on the course material. It's voluntary, but pay extra dough per level of ACL.



Given the broad field of problems LEO's encounter today, and are responsible for getting it right every time; I don't know how you can get enough training. It really is a huge task that you face everytime step out and into the street. In addition to LE duties, you fill the roll of first responder for medical care, social worker, referee, etc., etc. I do not have the words to tell you how greateful I am to have the caliber of LEOs that I have met and worked with over the years. Sometimes a lapse in judgement, or conflicting information is the cause that ends up with rounds being fired in error.

Our world today is pretty unforgiving when an office uses a firearm in the line of duty. Even when you are right, you and your fellow officers catch shit for it. Like every profession, you sometimes really get it wrong, and it changes your world forever. I hope the officer who fired on the care giver is treated fairly.


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## policemedic (Jul 22, 2016)

ThunderHorse said:


> Gross Negligence...charges.  Done.  Even if it's a suspended sentence.
> 
> LEOs, do you have Professional Education and Training similar to what we have in the military once you reach a certain grade?  One of my friends posted about this stating that it was quite necessary.



I would wager that in many cases it exceeds what the military requires.  In my agency it certainly does.

ETA: Our continuing professional education changes throughout our careers but begins at the rank of police officer i.e. PV1 Snuffy.


----------



## policemedic (Jul 23, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I'd side with lose his job. What about the possibility of a civil suit or would that fall upon his department and not him as an individual?



It completely depends on plaintiff's counsel.  They will certainly name him as a defendant as P/O Joe Blow, Anytown PD and everyone in his chain up to and including the city proper.  However, he can also be named as Mr. Joe Blow.  If he is named individually then it is possible he can be held personally responsible for a portion of whatever damages are awarded, if any.  Many departments will indemnify the officer regardless, unless their actions were clearly outside the scope of their employment.

Criminal civil rights actions tend to affect the officer personally, because they're the ones facing jail time.  However, that is a very high bar to overcome.  It is not easy to charge someone with federal criminal civil rights violations and it's harder still to convict them.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Jul 28, 2016)

Well done officers - actually surprised to see GMA offer some "good" police video.





__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=10153779244332061


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## ThunderHorse (May 3, 2017)

Update: FBI Confirms Investigation Into Gunman in Dallas Shooting


----------



## jackmick (Feb 3, 2018)

Dallas News just published this article following the SWAT response to the rampage on police officers on July 7th, 2016. It's long but very much worth reading all the way through. Very intense

Standoff: How the Dallas SWAT team cornered and killed the July 7 police shooter

*- Mod Edit -*
@jackmick , be sure to use the search function here. (it is one of the best on the net).  I've merged your post with the thread already in progress.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 3, 2018)

jackmick said:


> Dallas News just published this article following the SWAT response to the rampage on police officers on July 7th, 2016. It's long but very much worth reading all the way through. Very intense
> 
> Standoff: How the Dallas SWAT team cornered and killed the July 7 police shooter
> 
> ...



@jackmick -

That is easily one of the most informative and well written articles I have read in a very long time.  If this is the future of journalism, I'm all for it!  

Great post!


----------

