# M-4 Optics Question



## GMan (Apr 29, 2009)

Gentlemen, I went to the range last weekend for m-4 and it was the first time I have had difficulty qualifying. :doh: I'm 48 and the eyes are losing their focus. The company qualified with iron sights but some of the old-timers had bought their own optical sights. 

Question: without breaking the bank, what sight would you recommend for an M-4 that had a good crosshair or dot sight and was good for 50 to 300 meter targets? I admit, I don't know the first thing about optics - I've always qualified sharpshooter or better with iron sights in the past.

Thank you all!


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## Boondocksaint375 (Apr 29, 2009)

If eyesight is the problem, I would go with the ACOG.  You can find used ones on Ebay or similar to save money.  Or you can just get a cheaper dot optic and buy a magnifier.


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## Hush (Apr 29, 2009)

S&B short dot.  Oh you said you DIDDNT want to break the bank.....


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## RustyShackleford (Apr 29, 2009)

If you are "losing focus," I would suggest seeing an eye doctor rather than compenste with an optic.


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## GMan (Apr 29, 2009)

No, the problem with the eye doctor is I can get glasses for distance, glasses for close vision, or bi-focals. But I can't focus on the post and the target at the same time, the way I could with an optic. I tried two different pairs of glasses at the range without help. I tried someone's optic with my reading glasses and it worked fine. I just don't know what optic he was using.


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## 7point62 (Apr 29, 2009)

Trijicon ACOG is the way I'd go. I have a bud who just put one on his Siggy 556 and loves it, even in low light.


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## Cabbage Head (Apr 29, 2009)

I have used ACOG, EoTech and AimPoint.  If you are looking for something with crosshairs then something along the line of an ACOG would work fine.  EoTech has a dot within a circle that some like.  AimPoint has just a dot.

With either of the EoTech or AimPoint one thing that you need to know is that the dot size could be an issue with firing at a distance.  With a 4moa or 2moa dot at 300m makes it difficult to hit without some type of magnifier (that and turning down the brightness of the dot).

With either, depends on how much you want to spend.  But remember, when you place a price on a life, the cost of good optics seems like nothing.:2c:


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## 08steeda (Apr 29, 2009)

I have a Leupold Mark 4 CQ/T and it is awesome! My Dad had the same issue with his glasses and after shooting mine he went right out and bought one too!

But they are pricey!!!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 29, 2009)

GMan said:


> No, the problem with the eye doctor is I can get glasses for distance, glasses for close vision, or bi-focals.



You need close vision to shoot a rifle… *“front sight post clear” *bi-focals are a NO-GO!



GMan said:


> But I can't focus on the post and the target at the same time, the way I could with an optic.



No human can focus on two things at once; your focus must be the *top center of the front sight* post…. The target should be blurry…. Too many times people will focus on the front sight post and then the target and then the front sight post. Simply put, when you change focus from the front sight to your target, your body will attempt to move the object obstructing the focus (i.e the front sight post). This is why a lot of people will hit low and or have the shots in a line up and down. Yep that’s right in ant your breathing…:doh:



GMan said:


> I tried two different pairs of glasses at the range without help.



Try it while using proper marksmanship techniques and you might find you don’t even need the glasses.



GMan said:


> I tried someone's optic with my reading glasses and it worked fine. I just don't know what optic he was using.



Optics work the same way as iron sights do, you focus is on the radical or the dot, or what ever you have. I would not use an optic as a crutch or as a replacement for good marksmanship skills with iron sights, you are simply putting you and your buddies in jeopardy by doing so.:eek:

Don’t take any of this as an insult, b/c it is not… I spent 2.5 years teaching joe, to ignore what his Drill Sgt taught him in basic and learn the techniques that really work. I have yet to meet someone I could not get to qualify sharpshooter/ expert with 2 hours of training and a good zero. ;) and yes some of them were blind as a bat!


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## 0699 (Apr 29, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> ...your focus must be the *top center of the front sight* post…. The target should be blurry….



Same thing I was going to say.  I've always been taught focusing on the front sight is the way to go.


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## GMan (Apr 30, 2009)

Thanks J.A.B., good advice. No offence taken. Hopefully my advancing leadership/soldiering skills will take make up for my declining marksmanship skills as time goes on. 

The problem with marksmanship is we get to the range once a year and with the pop-ups, I guess I didn't have time to focus on much. Always shot sharpshooter or expert in my 20s and 30s. I guess I have to relearn in my 40s.


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## EATIII (Apr 30, 2009)

GMan said:


> Thanks J.A.B., good advice. No offence taken. Hopefully my advancing leadership/soldiering skills will take make up for my declining marksmanship skills as time goes on.
> 
> The problem with marksmanship is we get to the range once a year and with the pop-ups, I guess I didn't have time to focus on much. Always shot sharpshooter or expert in my 20s and 30s. I guess I have to relearn in my 40s.



You need to use those leadership/soldering skills and dont just sit still waiting for that once a year zero/qual, get an ar and do some training outside of your once a year/month drills. No Dig intended but being an NCO is more than that. You have taken the first step in seaking further help, so dont stop.;)


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 30, 2009)

Dry-fire, dry-fire, dry-fire! Sit your joe's down every drill, have them pull the shooting sticks out of the arms room and then dry-fire practice for 2 hours... Joe will hate your guts but when your team/ squad or platoon is off the zero range in an hour, they will understand. ;)

Every unit NG/RC/AD all have access to Laser Marksmanship Training System (LMTS) equipment “the beam hit stuff“. All you have to do is request it for every drill, you may only get it once or twice a quarter. But that better then nothing. The LMTS stuff helps with the dry-fire practice, by giving joe some feed back. 

Also you can request training from NGB Marksmanship Training Unit (MTU) They do SDM and master gunner courses for the NG. They conduct these courses at Camp Robinson AR, or they will send a Mobil Training Team (MTT) to your unit if you have enough people attending training.

Also send your jr NCO’s or senior E4’s to the shooting competition’s, local state matches, AFSAM, Wilson cup, All Army and any and everything else. Those guys will bring the best marksmanship skill back to your unit and once the other joe’s start watching them getting EIC badges and marksmanship tab’s. The rest will want to compete next year. But this time you will have solid jr’s in place to train the next batch of shooters, as well as running PMI for the unit.

Also talk to your leadership about buying .22cal conversion kits for the unit rifles, this will allow the unit to train more on marksmanship at a much lower cost. Even if you only get 20 kits, you can rotate your unit through them and allow marksmanship to become a priority again…

If you need some help in finding info or NSN for equipment, or even tracking down resources in you state. Let me know and I can normally get the info fairly fast. I have friends at AMU, SARG and MTU and they all jump at a chance to help train a unit in marksmanship…

Either way good luck ;)


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## arizonaguide (Apr 30, 2009)

Agree with JAB on basics first!

Once you do work back into optics, the one thing I do like about the Trijicon (not sure of the model #) is the batteries NOT being necessary. There is a duel lighting feature that uses both tritium and passive collection that seems to work pretty well. But, perhaps the BTDT's can comment on actual "field condition" performance.

The HISTORY on the S&B short dot is pretty cool. Probably a good choice also.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 30, 2009)

Your unit lets people shoot for qual with optics that the unit doesn't issue?

I favor the ACOG.  But another option that would probably be cheaper is the 25m alternate qualification fire, if that's an option for your unit.  Most folks shoot significantly better on that qual.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 30, 2009)

Marauder06 said:


> Your unit lets people shoot for qual with optics that the unit doesn't issue?
> 
> A question that needs to be addressed, meet the standard or get off the range.
> 
> I favor the ACOG.  But another option that would probably be cheaper is the 25m alternate qualification fire, if that's an option for your unit.  Most folks shoot significantly better on that qual.



No disrespect Mara, but being that he is taking the role of an NCO of a team, squad or platoon of Infantrymen. *Meeting the standard at 25 meters is the wrong fucking answer! *The 25 meter qualification is used when soldier's are unable to use a pop up or KD range. Not to be used as a way around the proper qualification. That is just fucked. 

Having a 25 meter zero is normally off by a .5 MOA at least, all zeros should be confirmed at actual distance…

It’s not about getting a good score or passing the qual, it’s about being on top of your game and setting the example for your soldiers to follow…

Year of the NCO and all that shit...:2c:


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## Marauder06 (Apr 30, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> No disrespect Mara, but being that he is taking the role of an NCO of a team, squad or platoon of Infantrymen. *Meeting the standard at 25 meters is the wrong fucking answer! ...:2c:*


*

No disrespect perceived- you're absolutely right.  Individual and crew-level collective training is an NCO responsibility, and I'm glad to see it when people are passionate about their profession.*


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## doorkicker (May 3, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> *Meeting the standard at 25 meters is the wrong fucking answer! *The 25 meter qualification is used when soldier's are unable to use a pop up or KD range. Not to be used as a way around the proper qualification...


Yep, no excuse for tailored leadership. :eek:  As the "backbone of the Army", your troops should look up to you and your tactical/technical proficiency...when you see it begin to degrade, meet it head on and overcome it.

If you do chose to purchase an optic to assist you...look at the Trijicon ACOGs as mentioned previously...their is a multitude of reticle options available (most commonly issued are...TA31F & TA01NSN).

At the end of the day...like J.A.B. said....FUNDAMENTALS
1.  Sight Alignment
2.  Triggr Control
3.  Breathing
4.  Body Position

Dry Fire...Dry Fire...Dry Fire...Dry Fire...Dry Fire...


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## Ajax (May 4, 2009)

So, just out of curiosity...
1.  Do you shoot only for qualification?  If so, I wouldn't drop of cent of my own money on optics.
2.  ACOGs are expensive as shit and are in the supply system.  I'm making an assumption by your age that you might be a senior NCO in your unit.  See if you can get one assigned.  If you are in a unit that doesn't have ACOGs, see question one.

If JAB covered any of this, then excuse my laziness.  I didn't read his whole post.


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## 104TN (May 4, 2009)

Ajax said:


> 2.  ACOGs are expensive as shit and are in the supply system.  I'm making an assumption by your age that you might be a senior NCO in your unit.  See if you can get one assigned.  If you are in a unit that doesn't have ACOGs, see question one.



Some thoughts on #2 from the POV of someone that only served as a junior soldier. 

I thought it was BS to see a senior PAC or Supply NCO that could barely qual. sporting an ACOG or CCO while Joes that could qualify expert were going down range with iron sights.

Equipment shouldn't be used to augment deficiencies but to increase effectiveness. If you (anybody) can't shoot for shit then a unit issued optic would be better utilized by a Joe that could put it to use to fight more effectively and safely. 

That's just my non-hacking $0.02 tho.


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## koz (May 4, 2009)

rick said:


> I thought it was BS to see a senior PAC or Supply NCO that could barely qual. sporting an ACOG or CCO while Joes that could qualify expert were going down range with iron sights.



I think this is a problem everywhere.  We ordered the Paraclete armor package and while we were still wearing the old armor - the supply guys and other support personnel showed up in our new armor.  Fortunately our SGM had a pair and quickly corrected that.  But we also saw it with watches, boots, GPSs, headsets, sunglasses, and every other little OPFUND item.


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## imdefaninja (May 4, 2009)

Dig deep and grab the ELCAN specter dr


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## doorkicker (May 4, 2009)

imdefaninja said:


> Dig deep and grab the ELCAN specter dr


HEAVY :eek:


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## JustAnotherJ (Jun 25, 2009)

What's the consensus on this little detachable gadget?
http://www.botachtactical.com/aimpoint3xmag.html


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## JJOIFVET (Jun 25, 2009)

Boondocksaint375 said:


> If eyesight is the problem, I would go with the ACOG.  You can find used ones on Ebay or similar to save money.  Or you can just get a cheaper dot optic and buy a magnifier.



You can also use Gunbroker.com


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## JJOIFVET (Jun 25, 2009)

JustAnotherJ said:


> What's the consensus on this little detachable gadget?
> http://www.botachtactical.com/aimpoint3xmag.html



Some people like to use it in conjunction with sights like the HOLO sight by eotech. I only know a couple of guys who used it. They liked it, I haven't tried it. I have too many gadgets as it is.


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## JustAnotherJ (Jun 25, 2009)

JJOIFVET said:


> I have too many gadgets as it is.



heard that bro. I appreciate the response.


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## 275ANGER! (Jun 26, 2009)

JustAnotherJ said:


> What's the consensus on this little detachable gadget?
> http://www.botachtactical.com/aimpoint3xmag.html



I would caution the use of it in an urban setting, got in a little firefight with several movers and the guys with the optic complained they had trouble aquiring targets.


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## CAL (Jun 26, 2009)

275ANGER! said:


> I would caution the use of it in an urban setting, got in a little firefight with several movers and the guys with the optic complained they had trouble aquiring targets.


I agree - I recommend the Larue Tactical QD pivot mount to quickly transition between the magnifier and the straight red dot.


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## 8'Duece (Jun 27, 2009)

CAL said:


> I agree - I recommend the Larue Tactical QD pivot mount to quickly transition between the magnifier and the straight red dot.



Concur with CAL.  I use it on several of my AR's and it works like a charm.


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## HeloMedic1171 (Jun 27, 2009)

Ajax said:


> So, just out of curiosity...
> 1.  Do you shoot only for qualification?  If so, I wouldn't drop of cent of my own money on optics.
> 2.  ACOGs are expensive as shit and are in the supply system.  I'm making an assumption by your age that you might be a senior NCO in your unit.  See if you can get one assigned.  If you are in a unit that doesn't have ACOGs, see question one.



It irritates the hell out of me to see a fellow line medic go out with a 68 while the Sr Line Medic who sits on his ass in the Company Toc has an ACOG on his dusty, never-shot weapon.  just like it irritates the fuck out of me to see Mess NCOs with carbines and pistols, when they never leave the DFAC, while we have 11Bs with fucking muskets.  Rank has it's privileges, but cush gear and top-shelf weaponry and accessories shouldn't be one of them.  put the good stuff in the hands of those who will use them every day, not the ones who will bring them back still in the box.



rick said:


> Some thoughts on #2 from the POV of someone that only served as a junior soldier.
> 
> I thought it was BS to see a senior PAC or Supply NCO that could barely qual. sporting an ACOG or CCO while Joes that could qualify expert were going down range with iron sights.



YUP.



koz said:


> I think this is a problem everywhere.  We ordered the Paraclete armor package and while we were still wearing the old armor - the supply guys and other support personnel showed up in our new armor.  Fortunately our SGM had a pair and quickly corrected that.  But we also saw it with watches, boots, GPSs, headsets, sunglasses, and every other little OPFUND item.



yes it is.  unfortunately, not all Sr NCOs have the balls your SGM did.  

just like it really chaps my ass that while all the medics who leave the wire have to sport carbines, the senior dickhead (aka the specialist "in charge" of the radio in the BN TOC) gets a damn M9.  riddle me that, Batman.


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## 08steeda (Jun 28, 2009)

The front line troops should have first pick!!! REMF's should get a sling shot and a bag full of marbles!!!! Unless the front line troops have everything they need, then they can go for the left overs!!!

I hate hearing that crap!

But it has been that way as long as there have been wars in the world!!!


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