# Buffalo Bills player collapses on field…game suspended…



## Ooh-Rah (Jan 2, 2023)

This is all happening now…

Bills' Damar Hamlin collapses on the field, game temporarily suspended — Fox News

And this video from before the game is now trending…


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1610102368879738882


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## DA SWO (Jan 2, 2023)

This was hard to watch.
Heart attack?
Bad video, Bills were wearing white tonight.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 2, 2023)

DA SWO said:


> This was hard to watch.
> Heart attack?


They’ve not released anything yet…that I’ve seen.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 2, 2023)

Game has been officially suspended for the evening.

Lot’s of rumors about the player’s fate…but nothing official yet.

Has to be pretty damn serious to cancel a Monday Night Football game, though.


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## AWP (Jan 2, 2023)

Reportedly, Roger Goodell told the teams to play the game and the two head coaches told him to pound sand. That’s when the game was canceled.

My money is on a torn aorta.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 2, 2023)

AWP said:


> Reportedly, Roger Goodell told the teams to play the game and the two head coaches told him to pound sand


I’d give almost anything to have that come out officially; can’t stand Goodall…smarmy fuck.


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## Muppet (Jan 2, 2023)

AWP said:


> Reportedly, Roger Goodell told the teams to play the game and the two head coaches told him to pound sand. That’s when the game was canceled.
> 
> My money is on a torn aorta.



Either that, I'm thinking sudden cardiac arrest or something called, commotio cordis (sudden hit to chest) at a certain point of ECG that would result in arrest. R on T phenomenon its called. 

We'll see.


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## Totentanz (Jan 2, 2023)

AWP said:


> Reportedly, Roger Goodell told the teams to play the game and the two head coaches told him to pound sand. That’s when the game was canceled.
> 
> My money is on a torn aorta.


I didn’t think my opinion of him could get much lower without criminal charges. Touché, dickhead.


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## AWP (Jan 3, 2023)

Multiple sources are saying he had cardiac arrest.


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## Muppet (Jan 3, 2023)

AWP said:


> Multiple sources are saying he had cardiac arrest.



Young and healthy. Either a hidden arrhythmia or what I thought above. I presume these guys go through lots of physicals and stuff. Happens once in a while, healthy sports players drop from sudden arrest. Usually, it's a Vfib arrest, CPR, defibrillation plus ICU care ends in ok results. Hopefully, this is the case. I'm not a football guy but a 24 male, healthy with a mom in the stands, fucking bad day.


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jan 3, 2023)

Muppet said:


> Either that, I'm thinking sudden cardiac arrest or something called,* commotio cordis (sudden hit to chest)...*
> 
> We'll see.



This.^

Very mixed emotions about last night. This is the 1st game I bet on since I was a kid, I put $50 on Bills covering the spread at 2.5 and $50 on Stefon Diggs scoring a TD. I think I'm going to clear my MGM account after this game if they decide to play it out.

Sad to see a young dude like that go down the way he did.


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jan 3, 2023)

Devildoc said:


> People yammering "it must be the covid vaccine!" and I want to punch them in the throat.



No, but after watching a few videos two days ago about young healthy people dropping dead of sudden cardiac arrest, I wanted to spend some time looking into the numbers when I have a chance. A couple of cardiologists came out talking about it but all I did was watch a short video.

Commotio cordis is well known and he clearly took two shots to his chest, one on the hit and another when he fell on top of him.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 3, 2023)

In grad school I had a friend who was once on the Yale football team and put a hit on a Harvard player in the Yale/Harvard game that knocked both players unconscious and injured my friend so severely that he couldn't fulfill his dream of becoming a Marine.  

Not a direct correlation I know, just along the same vein of weird football injuries.


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## amlove21 (Jan 3, 2023)

I am going to adhere to the ole 72 hour rule on this one. I hope the young man is ok; 10 minutes of CPR on the field makes me worried about anoxic brain injury. 

I will hold any and all other comments for another time.


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## Gunz (Jan 3, 2023)

Marauder06 said:


> In grad school I had a friend who was once on the Yale football team and put a hit on a Harvard player in the Yale/Harvard game that knocked both players unconscious and injured my friend so severely that he couldn't fulfill his dream of becoming a Marine.
> 
> Not a direct correlation I know, just along the same vein of weird football injuries.



My middle son, who ended up in baseball, was also the quarterback of his HS varsity team. He took a hit that knocked him unconscious and it was that hit that made him chose baseball over football.

Like the great Stan Musial said: “You’re one injury away from the end of your career.”

And—as we know—that statement can also apply the military.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 3, 2023)

I was fine with the dudes tearing up or even openly crying.  They get caught up in the emotion of the game, the events transpiring, and likely see themselves lying out there on the field getting resuscitated on national television.

I fully believe that the NFL told the coaches, “you’ve got 5 minutes”; even though both the NFL and Player’s association now deny that deadline took place.

There were millions and millions of dollars in play last night; as well as playoff and standing positions at play.  To me this sets a precedent for canceling future games for … a leg break?  A bad concussion?

No one will ever convince me that the NFL did not direct the teams that “the show must go on”, and the League folded when the coaches and players pushed back.


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## amlove21 (Jan 3, 2023)

That aspect I 110% believe (the NFL basically saying that they were going to continue the game).


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## Cookie_ (Jan 3, 2023)

Ooh-Rah said:


> There were millions and millions of dollars in play last night; as well as playoff and standing positions at play. To me this sets a precedent for canceling future games for … a leg break? A bad concussion?



I can't think of the last time an ambulance was brought onto the field while CPR was being conducted.

The NFL does a lot of sketchy shit that fans look the other way on, but continuing the game after that probably would have been the biggest push-back they've gotten in years.


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## Devildoc (Jan 3, 2023)

Cookie_ said:


> I can't think of the last time an ambulance was brought onto the field while CPR was being conducted.
> 
> The NFL does a lot of sketchy shit that fans look the other way on, but continuing the game after that probably would have been the biggest push-back they've gotten in years.



Last time I can think of was a college game, not pro (Daily Press - We are currently unavailable in your region).  I was one of the medics that responded, our bus was stationed at the event.  They resumed the game, like an hour later.  Even though it was a referee and not a player, there was a metric shit-ton of controversy and anger over resuming the game.

The actual on-field resuscitation was an absolute clusterfuck, @Muppet would have loved this: docs coming out of the woodwork, everyone wanted to be in charge, yadda yadda yadda.  The fact the guy lived is a testament to rapid CPR and defib and not because of the docs in attendance.  We had to use police to keep everyone except EMS and team physician (ortho, didn't even have ACLS) back.


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## Muppet (Jan 3, 2023)

Devildoc said:


> Last time I can think of was a college game, not pro (Daily Press - We are currently unavailable in your region).  I was one of the medics that responded, our bus was stationed at the event.  They resumed the game, like an hour later.  Even though it was a referee and not a player, there was a metric shit-ton of controversy and anger over resuming the game.
> 
> The actual on-field resuscitation was an absolute clusterfuck, @Muppet would have loved this: docs coming out of the woodwork, everyone wanted to be in charge, yadda yadda yadda.  The fact the guy lived is a testament to rapid CPR and defib and not because of the docs in attendance.  We had to use police to keep everyone except EMS and team physician (ortho, didn't even have ACLS) back.



Gotta love the Ricky rescues that want to flex. There's a reason team docs and EMS are there.


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## Devildoc (Jan 3, 2023)

Muppet said:


> Gotta love the Ricky rescues that want to flex. There's a reason team docs and EMS are there.



"Thank you very much, doctor. Would you like to take medical responsibility for this patient and ride with us to the hospital?"

Crickets.....


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## Muppet (Jan 3, 2023)

Devildoc said:


> "Thank you very much, doctor. Would you like to take medical responsibility for this patient and ride with us to the hospital?"
> 
> Crickets.....



Been there, done that. Funny story. Think I mentioned this before. Years back, I95, bad wreck, pin in, medicine in the car, who's there assisting? Dr. Oz. He lives in the area. He was cool, not a cunt, he helped out, our medical director showed up (physician response car), not much for Oz to do.


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## Jaknight (Jan 3, 2023)

_



_


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## TLDR20 (Jan 3, 2023)

Devildoc said:


> "Thank you very much, doctor. Would you like to take medical responsibility for this patient and ride with us to the hospital?"
> 
> Crickets.....



Crazy thing to me, I wouldn’t even think to check for a pulse for a little while in an otherwise healthy patient. I would have assumed head injury initially for sure. 

The body is crazy. Wild to me that most of these deaths happen in Baseball not football. Though a proper hit has way more shoulder impact than chest.


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## policemedic (Jan 3, 2023)

Muppet said:


> Either that, I'm thinking sudden cardiac arrest or something called, commotio cordis (sudden hit to chest) at a certain point of ECG that would result in arrest. R on T phenomenon its called.
> 
> We'll see.



Commotio cordis is exactly what I said. It’s a textbook case.


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## policemedic (Jan 3, 2023)

Devildoc said:


> Last time I can think of was a college game, not pro (Daily Press - We are currently unavailable in your region).  I was one of the medics that responded, our bus was stationed at the event.  They resumed the game, like an hour later.  Even though it was a referee and not a player, there was a metric shit-ton of controversy and anger over resuming the game.
> 
> The actual on-field resuscitation was an absolute clusterfuck, @Muppet would have loved this: docs coming out of the woodwork, everyone wanted to be in charge, yadda yadda yadda.  The fact the guy lived is a testament to rapid CPR and defib and not because of the docs in attendance.  We had to use police to keep everyone except EMS and team physician (ortho, didn't even have ACLS) back.



I trip over doctors at work. Invariably someone thinks they can help in an emergency and gets in the way.  They are usually doctors of paleobotany or xenolinguistics or some such….


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## Muppet (Jan 3, 2023)

policemedic said:


> Commotio cordis is exactly what I said. It’s a textbook case.



Apparently, news is running with that too, now.


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## Muppet (Jan 3, 2023)

policemedic said:


> I trip over doctors at work. Invariably someone thinks they can help in an emergency and gets in the way.  They are usually doctors of paleobotany or xenoliguistics or some such….



I just fucking laughed out loud.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 3, 2023)

policemedic said:


> I trip over doctors at work. Invariably someone thinks they can help in an emergency and gets in the way.  They are usually doctors of paleobotany or xenoliguistics or some such….



I get called to do floor intubations as a SRNA with some regularity. It is interesting to me that Doctors with no business being involved in an airway code situation think they are more capable than me to intubate. Like bro I put in 20 tubes at least a week. Just cause I’m a student doesn’t mean I haven’t intubated 500 people in the last 2 years. 

Luckily normally the anesthesiologist I am with big dicks them out of the way.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 3, 2023)

This was a big discussion at work today with our medical director who always seems to have bad internet when we have a staff call (I'd find a new director just for that).  But the BOSS, placed special emphasis on auditing our current medical procedures and making sure every single assigned medical person has their CPR certification and wanting locations for AEDs specified.  This will change sports, not because it isn't somewhat common.  But because of the stage it was on.

But working in professional sports I can count on zero fingers for types of physicians that don't have relevant specialties.  Most doctors on the sideline are Orthopedics or ER physicians. And we're not the NFL. NFL games have team medical teams and independent medical team, all of these people have appropriate specialties. Same with their ATs and any number of additional medical personnel.  An NFL team's medical budget is rather ridiculous in size and probably unfit for purpose, but that's what happens when you have CBAs and such to define standards. Point being, in pro sports even with all the nonsense on social this season, there are many many capable people focused on responding to emergencies should they happen.


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## Muppet (Jan 3, 2023)

TLDR20 said:


> I get called to do floor intubations as a SRNA with some regularity. It is interesting to me that Doctors with no business being involved in an airway code situation think they are more capable than me to intubate. Like bro I put in 20 tubes at least a week. Just cause I’m a student doesn’t mean I haven’t intubated 500 people in the last 2 years.
> 
> Luckily normally the anesthesiologist I am with big dicks them out of the way.



Are you routinely using manual or video for your tubes?


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## Devildoc (Jan 4, 2023)

TLDR20 said:


> I get called to do floor intubations as a SRNA with some regularity. It is interesting to me that Doctors with no business being involved in an airway code situation think they are more capable than me to intubate. Like bro I put in 20 tubes at least a week. Just cause I’m a student doesn’t mean I haven’t intubated 500 people in the last 2 years.
> 
> Luckily normally the anesthesiologist I am with big dicks them out of the way.



At Duke the RTs are the code team airway SMEs.  They don't let docs near the airway.  In the ED and units, it depends.  In the ED sometimes it's a resident, RT, or attending EM doc; on the unit, sometimes a critical care NP/PA, or gas passer on critical care rotation.

@policemedic , when I was a medic the most off-the-wall "doctors" I had try to forcibly assist (i.e., be the boss) was a pharmacist.  I did have a pathologist stop once to ask if they could help, but he was actually pretty cool about it.  But the number of codes I had in public venues where other docs tried to interfere, oh, my God...


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## Gunz (Jan 4, 2023)

The kid’s on a ventilator, can’t breathe on his own, and they’ve got him on his stomach to get blood or fluid out of his lungs. It doesn’t look good. Hopefully he’ll pull through.


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## Devildoc (Jan 4, 2023)

Gunz said:


> The kid’s on a ventilator, can’t breathe on his own, and they’ve got him on his stomach to get blood or fluid out of his lungs. It doesn’t look good.



Proning isn't super new, but is an increasingly used technique with ventilation.  I see where they were able to drop his O2 requirement from 100% to 50%, which is big.

The bigger--biggest--issue will be his neurological status: will how long he was pulseless affect his neurological outcome?  That is the driving force in all resuscitation science.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 4, 2023)

Gunz said:


> The kid’s on a ventilator, can’t breathe on his own, and they’ve got him on his stomach to get blood or fluid out of his lungs. It doesn’t look good. Hopefully he’ll pull through.



That is pretty common post arrest.


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## TLDR20 (Jan 4, 2023)

Devildoc said:


> Proning isn't super new, but is an increasingly used technique with ventilation.  I see where they were able to drop his O2 requirement from 100% to 50%, which is big.
> 
> The bigger--biggest--issue will be his neurological status: will how long he was pulseless affect his neurological outcome?  That is the driving force in all resuscitation science.



My friend wanted to do a study on the best place vs the worst place to have a witnessed cardiac arrest: his hypothesis(which bares out in my experience) is either Home Depot or Lowe’s is the best. AED’s and the likelihood of a forst responder being nearby. I forgot what his worst is, but I think it’d be wal mart.

Of the probably 10 to 15 witnessed sudden cardiac death/vfib arrest patients I have taken care of in the ICU 2 made a full recovery. Both had CPR initiated almost immediately and were cooled effectively. Of the others, most died within a few months of progressive organ failure.

One of the worst cases I ever had to deal with was a LEO who had a sudden aortic aneurysm rupture. He only survived due to the Maryland State Police life flight, and “survive” is a loose term.


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## AWP (Jan 4, 2023)

To go on a different path for the sake of that discussion: has the NFL made a public statement or any comment refuting the assertion that it (Roger Goddell) told the teams they have 5 minutes to warm up or that they should play the game regardless?


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## Devildoc (Jan 4, 2023)

TLDR20 said:


> My friend wanted to do a study on the best place vs the worst place to have a witnessed cardiac arrest: his hypothesis(which bares out in my experience) is either Home Depot or Lowe’s is the best. AED’s and the likelihood of a forst responder being nearby. I forgot what his worst is, but I think it’d be wal mart.
> 
> Of the probably 10 to 15 witnessed sudden cardiac death/vfib arrest patients I have taken care of in the ICU 2 made a full recovery. Both had CPR initiated almost immediately and were cooled effectively. Of the others, most died within a few months of progressive organ failure.
> 
> One of the worst cases I ever had to deal with was a LEO who had a sudden aortic aneurysm rupture. He only survived due to the Maryland State Police life flight, and “survive” is a loose term.



I would love to do a study like that.  I think sports venues and churches, but I'd buy Home Depot/Lowes.

In 32 years (   I don't feel that old) I have participated in maybe 40ish witnessed arrests, maybe a few more, five had full recovery, but all five responded immediately to defib.  Almost everyone who was coding prior to arrival was dead when we got there, and deader when we got to the ED.  Unfortunately, back in the day we measured "success" differently: escalating and high dose epi to get the heart to start.  We now know if you give a rock enough epi it'll get a heartbeat (but no neuro activity, and usually rearrests later).  There were a few exceptions (pediatric, hypothermic, drowning), but those I can count on one hand combined.


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## amlove21 (Jan 4, 2023)

AWP said:


> To go on a different path for the sake of that discussion: has the NFL made a public statement or any comment refuting the assertion that it (Roger Goddell) told the teams they have 5 minutes to warm up or that they should play the game regardless?


That got memory holed almost immediately. They let Skip Bayless's tweet take the forefront and moved on.


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## Devildoc (Jan 4, 2023)

AWP said:


> To go on a different path for the sake of that discussion: has the NFL made a public statement or any comment refuting the assertion that it (Roger Goddell) told the teams they have 5 minutes to warm up or that they should play the game regardless?



I believe the on-site guy said that the comment was nonsense, he was in touch with Goodell and the refs, and no one said to warm up and play. 

NFL official says league didn’t try to resume MNF game


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## AWP (Jan 4, 2023)

amlove21 said:


> That got memory holed almost immediately. They let Skip Bayless's tweet take the forefront and moved on.



That's fair play if it happened.



Devildoc said:


> I believe the on-site guy said that the comment was nonsense, he was in touch with Goodell and the refs, and no one said to warm up and play.
> 
> NFL official says league didn’t try to resume MNF game



 I'm too cynical to believe this is true, but absent any other compelling evidence I have to go with this post.

As an aside, Skip Bayless is kind of a douche, but a "broken clock" and all...


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 4, 2023)

AWP said:


> To go on a different path for the sake of that discussion: has the NFL made a public statement or any comment refuting the assertion that it (Roger Goddell) told the teams they have 5 minutes to warm up or that they should play the game regardless?


ESPN is telling them to pound sand and standing behind their team…(which is shocking)

ESPN stands by report that NFL planned to restart game after Hamlin collapsed


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## Muppet (Jan 4, 2023)

The last neuro intact leaving hospital I had was a few years back, retired cop at movies with wife. He was snoring loud, wife went to wake him up to watch Jlo movie, he was in arrest.

Off duty RN did CPR, cop popped him with AED, EMS super AED, we popped him 3 times, ROSC, week later, this...


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## AWP (Jan 4, 2023)

Ooh-Rah said:


> ESPN is telling them to pound sand and standing behind their team…(which is shocking)
> 
> ESPN stands by report that NFL planned to restart game after Hamlin collapsed



Wow...that ESPN would go against the NFL is kind of big, right? Disney, ESPN's owner, paid about *2.7 BILLION per season *for the rights to broadcast NFL games. And ESPN is going against the NFL's narrative?

I posted earlier and in a different thread about why I no longer watch the NFL. I really want to believe (but I don't because people are weak) that fans will rise up and call for Roger Goodell to be fired. He is arguably the architect for much of the NFL's ills right now.

I will say I believe ESPN not because of my disdain for the NFL, but the NFL's explanation doesn't hold water against the timeline. It took the NFL about an hour-ish to call the game. After CPR was performed on the field in front of millions in the stadium and on TV. An ambulance took the player away and the players were openly crying. This wasn't a broken leg a la Theismann or other cases, this man collapsed and had CPR performed for about 10 minutes before they took him away.

And it still took the NFL an hour to call the game? Nah, flag on the play and a loss of first down for the NFL. They suck and this should (if people could think or care) open a lot of eyes. 2.7 billion a season and ESPN gave the NFL a big fuck you?


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## Devildoc (Jan 4, 2023)

Ooh-Rah said:


> ESPN is telling them to pound sand and standing behind their team…(which is shocking)
> 
> ESPN stands by report that NFL planned to restart game after Hamlin collapsed





AWP said:


> Wow...that ESPN would go against the NFL is kind of big, right? Disney, ESPN's owner, paid about *2.7 BILLION per season *for the rights to broadcast NFL games. And ESPN is going against the NFL's narrative?
> 
> I posted earlier and in a different thread about why I no longer watch the NFL. I really want to believe (but I don't because people are weak) that fans will rise up and call for Roger Goodell to be fired. He is arguably the architect for much of the NFL's ills right now.
> 
> ...



Reminds me of that Spider Man meme where there are a bunch of Spider Men standing around, pointing at each other.  Someone's lying, and no one wants the publicity black eye.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 4, 2023)

TLDR20 said:


> We don’t even know if he was vaccinated. It is an absurd position to take to say it was or was not related. Or even speculate on the matter.
> 
> It is like at the beginning of the pandemic when people were in car accidents and were reported supposedly as Covid deaths.
> 
> I personally like to use my eyes. He was hit in the chest and collapsed soon thereafter. The most common cause is “a”. I don’t go looking for “z” because that is fucking stupid. “a” is bad enough. This is a tragic occurrence but happens often enough that there is a name for it, and it has happened long enough for us to know it is a risk from sports.



Sure, but I work in this space and NFL players who didn't put the experimental saline in their body had to be treated like second class citizens during the 2020 season and still had protocols until part of 2021. Basically if you were unvaxxed you had to be in a mask if traveling, isolate in your hotel room the entire time on a road trip except when you were on the field. 

What we did wasn't as hardcore in 2021 thank you NFL, but we didn't stop testing until after our 2021 season was over. And we were mostly "valued". You know the saline is still under an EUA, right? Has yet to be approved and likely won't be. Or at least by the time it is Fauci will be like "well it's another thing".



AWP said:


> Wow...that ESPN would go against the NFL is kind of big, right? Disney, ESPN's owner, paid about *2.7 BILLION per season *for the rights to broadcast NFL games. And ESPN is going against the NFL's narrative?
> 
> I posted earlier and in a different thread about why I no longer watch the NFL. I really want to believe (but I don't because people are weak) that fans will rise up and call for Roger Goodell to be fired. He is arguably the architect for much of the NFL's ills right now.
> 
> ...



Bro, just like the TOC has to go through a targeting and action cycle, so does the league operations center in NY. I deal with this every day in our league. Hell I run my league's targeting and action cycles.🤷‍♂️


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## Marauder06 (Jan 5, 2023)

I don't know what happened in this case.  My first thought that it was substance-related, because that's my frame of reference when it comes to athletes and heart attacks (Len Bias).

I do know that the kind of people who mock or attack others, and/or outright dismiss the mere possibility of a viable potential option are exactly the same people who did the same over Russiagate, suppression of conservatives on social media, possibility of the Wuhan lab leak, etc., and any number of things that we now know are either true, or solid possibilities. 

Never stop questioning.  Everything.  You won't always get it right, but it is always OK to ask the questions.  And be very, very suspicious of anyone who immediately resorts to ad hominems instead of rationality.


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## Devildoc (Jan 5, 2023)

Marauder06 said:


> I don't know what happened in this case.  My first thought that it was substance-related, because that's my frame of reference when it comes to athletes and heart attacks (Len Bias).
> 
> I do know that the kind of people who mock or attack others, and/or outright dismiss the mere possibility of a viable potential option are exactly the same people who did the same over Russiagate, suppression of conservatives on social media, possibility of the Wuhan lab leak, etc., and any number of things that we now know are either true, or solid possibilities.
> 
> Never stop questioning.  Everything.  You won't always get it right, but it is always OK to ask the questions.  And be very, very suspicious of anyone who immediately resorts to ad hominems instead of rationality.



Illicit substances, legal (steroids) or illegal (cocaine), are certainly possibilities for cause of cardiac arrest in young people.  As is underlying dysrhythmia (Hank Gathers).  But I can't find a case where a cardiac arrest in any of those was precipitated by an event (tackle).  The tackle, followed by getting up, then collapsing, then being in ventricular fibrillation, is what builds the case for something other than these.

In medical decision-making when looking at differential diagnoses (or presumptive diagnoses), you look at the history of present illness/mechanism of injury, the story/event, and the symptomology, and start assigning probability, and a list in descending order; i.e., heart attack is unlikely in the top three for a 20 year old with chest pain, but number one until ruled out in a 50 year old with chest pain, etc.  Then use data to rule in/rule out.

 So, do I mock or attack someone who wants to present alternate theories or disgnoses?  No.  Will I call someone obtuse and ignorant who presents an unlikely one at the cost of ignoring the probable ones?  Sure.  I would do the same for someone whose car ran out of gas, but insists on changing the battery.


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## Devildoc (Jan 5, 2023)

Marauder06 said:


> Not even close to the same thing.  The science of car mechanics is very well-established comparative to what we know about the COVID vaccine.  And just because you're out of gas doesn't mean there might also be a problem with your battery.
> 
> I don't know what caused this young man's issues and I'm not claiming it's vaccine-related.  As I initially said, my first thought was substance.  PEDs, illegal drugs, I don't know.  Could be hereditary.  Could be a super-"stinger" like the one I posted.  But at this point everything should be on the table.



Well, we're going to have to declare a _modus vivendi_ and not get lost in the weeds.  I think it's exactly the same thing: someone pursuing an unlikely theory over one with a much higher probability.

Should everything be on the table?  Yes.  No doubt.  No argument.  But start with eliminating horses before you you get to the zebras; rule out the higher probability events and narrow the DD (in this case, not Devil Doc, but differential diagnoses) as you get more data.  These people (not you, and not here) screaming "it was the vaccine!" without wanting to consider more likely events (and who often have zero clinical experience or medical background) are a problem.


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## Devildoc (Jan 5, 2023)

Fox reporting Hamlin is "neurologically intact" and improving.

Damar Hamlin appears to be ‘neurologically intact,’ team says; teammate adds player is ‘awake'


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## Devildoc (Jan 5, 2023)

In a phased 'wake up' from sedation, Hamlin asked if Buffalo won the game.  The boy is intact.  This is THE win, not just 'a' win.

Damar Hamlin asked about Bills' game result after waking up, doctors say


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jan 5, 2023)

Strange feelings about Damar Hamlin's return to consciousness. For some reason I'm pissed at the providers told him he won the game of life when he asked who won the game...

I'd much rather hear more about what Damar had to say than the clever quip by whoever. Not sure why it pisses me off so much, first thing on his mind was his team and that's the best news I can think of.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jan 6, 2023)

Moved all the Covid related discussion from this thread to the Covid thread. 

Covid-19


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## Devildoc (Jan 6, 2023)

BlackSmokeRisinG said:


> Strange feelings about Damar Hamlin's return to consciousness. For some reason I'm pissed at the providers told him he won the game of life when he asked who won the game...
> 
> I'd much rather hear more about what Damar had to say than the clever quip by whoever. Not sure why it pisses me off so much, first thing on his mind was his team and that's the best news I can think of.



Kind of reminded me when Reagan was shot and he asked the surgeons before they put him under if they were republicans and one replied "today we're all republicans, Mr. President."

We don't always have to look for our "one step for man..." moment.


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## Devildoc (Jan 6, 2023)

Per Fox, Hamlin's ETT (i.e., "breathing tube") has been removed, and he is chatting with teammates.

Bills’ Damar Hamlin is speaking with team after breathing tube is removed, Buffalo says in major health update


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Jan 6, 2023)

Devildoc said:


> Kind of reminded me when Reagan was shot and he asked the surgeons before they put him under if they were republicans and one replied "today we're all republicans, Mr. President."
> 
> We don't always have to look for our "one step for man..." moment.



Hahaha! Never heard that one before. LMAO


Devildoc said:


> Per Fox, Hamlin's ETT (i.e., "breathing tube") has been removed, and he is chatting with teammates.
> 
> Bills’ Damar Hamlin is speaking with team after breathing tube is removed, Buffalo says in major health update



That's what I'm talking about! "Love you guys"


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