# As a LEO, in an Active Shooter Situation, You Should...



## Marauder06 (Jun 29, 2012)

... run and hide???

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/06/2...urity-safety-course-promotes/?intcmp=trending



> The FEMA-administered computer course, entitled “IS-907- Active Shooter: What You Can Do,” is a 45-minute tutorial that provides guidance to all employees on how to recognize indicators of possible workplace violence and what to do should their office be invaded by gunmen and focuses around three main options; either evacuate, hide out, or in dire circumstances, take action.​​“We are now taught in an ‘Active Shooter’ course that if we encounter a shooter in a public place we are to ‘run away’ and ‘hide’" union leader Brandon Judd wrote on the website of 3,300-member union local. *“If we are cornered by such a shooter we are to (only as a last resort) become ‘aggressive’ and ‘throw things’ at him or her. We are then advised to ‘call law enforcement’ and wait for their arrival* (presumably, while more innocent victims are slaughtered)."​


 
OK, I can kind of see that being good advice for untrained/unarmed civilians.  But that doesn't apply to people like the Border Patrol, right?​

> DHS officials maintain that the Active Shooter course was designed for all employees—civilian and law-enforcement officers-- and no one should rush into a situation where they, or others around them, could get hurt.


 


I kind of thought "cower in fear while people around you get brutally murdered and then your own life is snuffed out" kind of went out the window on 9/11.  Guess I was wrong.


​


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## Brill (Jun 29, 2012)

Someone hasn't taken the Army course on insider threats.  Same TTP: hide and try to E&E when appropriate.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 29, 2012)

If I don't have a weapon on me (which is most of the time in this gun-hating state), there isn't a threat to people I care about, *and* I have a way out, I'm E&E-ing for sure.  If any one of those conditions aren't true, it's GOB, no matter what a little pamphlet says.  I suspect that's the way it is for all of us.


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## Dame (Jun 29, 2012)

Considering this is coming from DHS it makes perfect sense. All these folks who take out the threats on the aircraft after TSA lets them on are just making them look bad. Obviously we need to train people to be afraid.


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## policemedic (Jun 29, 2012)

That's just crap.  The only acceptable TTP for a LEO in a rapid mass murder situation is ENGAGE.   To my mind that applies on- or off-duty, and that's what we teach.


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## SpitfireV (Jun 29, 2012)

I'd hide, but somewhere I could keep eyes on so I could call someone who actually has a gun to come and shoot the cunt.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jun 29, 2012)

Just when I thought there was a developing trend away from the "c-word"...my faith has been restored!  
And my protein shake just about came out my nose.


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## SpitfireV (Jun 29, 2012)

Pocc and Pardus are away, I'm the vanguard of the movement for the moment


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## SkrewzLoose (Jun 29, 2012)

Thank you for stepping up in their absence!


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## 0699 (Jun 29, 2012)

I think I already stated my TTP in a thread about grocery store robberies.  I'm grabbing the nearest fat kid as a shield and curling up in a ball on the ground behind him.  You heros can do whatever you want, but leave me out of it.


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## policemedic (Jun 29, 2012)

I think I read about that; that's the Twinkie defense, right?


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## Arrow 4 (Jun 29, 2012)

0699 said:


> I think I already stated my TTP in a thread about grocery store robberies. I'm grabbing the nearest fat kid as a shield and curling up in a ball on the ground behind him. You heros can do whatever you want, but leave me out of it.


 
Make sure you choke the kid out first, that way they're not screaming and drawing unwanted attention!


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## 18C4V (Jul 1, 2012)

I would run to the hottest chick around and say "come with me if you want to live"


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## Centermass (Jul 1, 2012)

Be this guy.........








Original Thread


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## policemedic (Jul 1, 2012)

I've met Justin, he's a great guy.  He did a fantastic job that day. I was lucky enough to hear him brief the entire incident.


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## 18C4V (Jul 1, 2012)

Our unit teaches Active Shooter for inservice training at our Academy. We use that example mentioned above on what one officer can do vs waiting for back up.


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## Arrow 4 (Jul 28, 2012)

18C4V said:


> Our unit teaches Active Shooter for inservice training at our Academy. We use that example mentioned above on what one officer can do vs waiting for back up.


 
I have never understood waiting for back up in situations where there is believed to be only one shooter. Unless the back up is only seconds away, I don't think I could live with the knowledge I waited in the parking lot while innocents were being slaughtered.


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## Dame (Jul 28, 2012)

Oh man, someone got their tit in a ringer criticizing this policy recently. The FB page for MARSEC4 is about Marine LE so there are a lot of USCG folks there. A couple of days ago, they posted an image of a bunch of geered up guys who had gone over the rail and were about to hit a hallway of the typically narrow boat variety. The question was asked, Would you a) do as the DHS recommends and throw chairs down the hall if any bad guys show themselves, or b) do what it took to accomplish the mission? I laughed and made some comment about Darth Vader about to come through the door at the end of the hall.

Not 10 minutes later that pic was GONE.


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## AWP (Jul 28, 2012)

That TTP is government-wide: cower/ hide, flee, throw things, engage as a last resort. I think there's even a blurb about not rendering aid until everyone is secure and the shooter is accounted for.

That's what the "heroes" here are being taught, or "warriors" or whatever everyone is this week. We have the obligatory reminders in every building.


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## Etype (Jul 29, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> That TTP is government-wide: cower/ hide, flee, throw things, engage as a last resort. I think there's even a blurb about not rendering aid until everyone is secure and the shooter is accounted for.
> 
> That's what the "heroes" here are being taught, or "warriors" or whatever everyone is this week. We have the obligatory reminders in every building.


This isn't just a problem off-duty-
I loved all the pics/video on the Va Tech shooting. It was a bunch of LEOs taking cover behind trees, cars, etc _OUTSIDE _while shots rang out from inside. I'm sure they were waiting for the situation to develop/waiting for backup/waiting for the word from higher/etc. Newsflash, you were the damn backup- good job.

If you are an LEO and are questioning what you would have done in this scenario, here's my perspective- you're paid to confront danger, the average citizen is not. You have the potential to be in a war zone at anytime, so do what every good soldier overseas does- realize that today might be the day, but regardless of that fact, you're going to do your damn job.

So here's my recommended course of action-
Be a warrior for a day (or at least just a few minutes), gain a tactical advantage and send that loser to hell. Don't wait for the situation to develop- develop the situation- reactive vs. proactive. The second you become reactive, you're a step behind- get inside his loop and beat him.

I think the answer for an active shooter is to be more active than he is.

Active shooters claim a lot of reactive/passive victims.


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## policemedic (Jul 29, 2012)

Etype said:


> This isn't just a problem off-duty-
> I loved all the pics/video on the Va Tech shooting. It was a bunch of LEOs taking cover behind trees, cars, etc _OUTSIDE _while shots rang out from inside. I'm sure they were waiting for the situation to develop/waiting for backup/waiting for the word from higher/etc. Newsflash, you were the damn backup- good job.
> 
> If you are an LEO and are questioning what you would have done in this scenario, here's my perspective- you're paid to confront danger, the average citizen is not. You have the potential to be in a war zone at anytime, so do what every good soldier overseas does- realize that today might be the day, but regardless of that fact, you're going to do your damn job.
> ...


 
Spot on.  Awesome post.


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## 0699 (Jul 29, 2012)

Etype said:


> This isn't just a problem off-duty-
> I loved all the pics/video on the Va Tech shooting. *It was a bunch of LEOs taking cover behind trees, cars, etc OUTSIDE while shots rang out from inside. I'm sure they were waiting for the situation to develop/waiting for backup/waiting for the word from higher/etc*. Newsflash, you were the damn backup- good job.
> 
> If you are an LEO and are questioning what you would have done in this scenario, here's my perspective- you're paid to confront danger, the average citizen is not. You have the potential to be in a war zone at anytime, so do what every good soldier overseas does- realize that today might be the day, but regardless of that fact, you're going to do your damn job.
> ...


 
IMO this comes from the preached mantra of "officer safety".  I'm trying to not paint with a broad brush, as I believe the military has the same problem.  We preach "force protection/preservation", emphasizing safety and reducing the danger to the force, just as the police preach "officer safety/survival".  I think this has led to mind set in some that the preservation of your own life is the most important thing you do.  But sometimes safety has to take second place over doing your job; you may have to enter that building or charge that hill to complete the mission.  In these situations, you may very well get injured or killed, and you have to be prepared to go into the breach if that's what the mission requires.


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## Arrow 4 (Jul 29, 2012)

Agreed, you only get so many opportunities in your life where you can make a substantial difference in the outcome of something important...then you can spend the rest of your life satisfied you stepped up and did the right thing, or spend the rest of your life remembering how you failed miserably. "It's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb"


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## Marauder06 (Jul 29, 2012)

Arrow 4 said:


> Agreed, you only get so many opportunities in your life where you can make a substantial difference in the outcome of something important...then you can spend the rest of your life satisfied you stepped up and did the right thing, or spend the rest of your life remembering how you failed miserably. "It's better to live one day as a lion, than a thousand years as a lamb"


 
Well said.  Reminds me of "Braveheart." ;)


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## x SF med (Jul 29, 2012)

0699 said:


> I think I already stated my TTP in a thread about grocery store robberies. I'm grabbing the nearest fat kid as a shield and curling up in a ball on the ground behind him. You heros can do whatever you want, but leave me out of it.


 
You are such a pacifistic, tie dye wearing, dope smoking unwashed patchouli doused weenie....  I can believe this statement....

(goodbye all, I will be chopped into little tiny pieces and fed to Bruno soon...)


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## 0699 (Jul 30, 2012)

x SF med said:


> You are such a pacifistic, tie dye wearing, dope smoking unwashed patchouli doused weenie.... I can believe this statement....
> 
> (goodbye all, I will be chopped into little tiny pieces and fed to Bruno soon...)


 
He's mostly eating chicken & turkey now.  Too much red meat isn't good for him.


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## Dame (Jul 31, 2012)

0699 said:


> He's mostly eating chicken & turkey now. Too much red meat isn't good for him.


Troll... The other white meat.


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## x SF med (Jul 31, 2012)

0699 said:


> He's mostly eating chicken & turkey now. Too much red meat isn't good for him.


 
at least you aren't feeding him tofu... you hippie.


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## goon175 (Jul 31, 2012)

One rarely finds me without a cup of coffee in my hands. My well-rehearsed COA is to get within the effective range of a thrown cup of hot coffee and target the active shooters face. While his/her skin is melting, I would disarm him like the jason bourne that I am.

All kidding aside, this is exactly what I would do:


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## Centermass (Jul 31, 2012)

"At least I have chicken......"


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## Centermass (Jul 31, 2012)




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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 1, 2012)

I almost spit tuna salad all over my laptop watching that!


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## Etype (Aug 3, 2012)

Brozos (sorta like bros, but more like bozos), here's the deal-
Before you leave the house in the morning, take your balls out and put them in your pants- then confront the world like Leroy.


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## sgtlew (Jan 2, 2013)

Current LE doctrine is go to the threat and engage.  There was a day when the first responders would hold the perimeter and wait for SWAT.  This changed after Colombine.

Reference the VA Tech comments, I wasn't there but I do know that first responders did in fact go to the shots.  When they hit the doors they found that they were chained and locked from the inside.  Once breached they went to the shooter.


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## goon175 (Jan 2, 2013)

Not too long ago we had to review our active shooter regulations for an upcoming inspection to our office. I found it rather interesting how you are raised in the Army (or at least I was) to run towards the sound of gunfire, yet when it comes to an active shooter the Army says to hide/run. All joking aside, I would not be able to live with myself if I did that, and the mental toll would be much more damaging than any physical damage a gunmen could do to me.


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## policemedic (Jan 3, 2013)

I've said it before, but it irritates me tremendously that you (recruiters specifically, but service members generally) have no access to weapons and no effective means of defending yourselves in such a situation.  You'd think Ft. Hood would have taught Big Army a lesson, but....:wall:


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## Marine0311 (Jan 3, 2013)

policemedic said:


> I've said it before, but it irritates me tremendously that you (recruiters specifically, but service members generally) have no access to weapons and no effective means of defending yourselves in such a situation. You'd think Ft. Hood would have taught Big Army a lesson, but....:wall:


 
Because we (I am former AD) are not trusted enough to carry loaded weapons during peacetime. Real talk. That's my belief. Also could be that The Green Machine places security on the shoulders of the base MP's.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 3, 2013)

Marine0311 said:


> Because we (I am former AD) are not trusted enough to carry loaded weapons during peacetime. Real talk. That's my belief. Also could be that The Green Machine places security on the shoulders of the base MP's.


 

Risk adverse leadership...period...

The Army Learn something? LOL


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## Arrow 4 (Jan 25, 2014)

policemedic said:


> I've said it before, but it irritates me tremendously that you (recruiters specifically, but service members generally) have no access to weapons and no effective means of defending yourselves in such a situation.  You'd think Ft. Hood would have taught Big Army a lesson, but....:wall:


Shit dude, we had to clear all weapons at the gate on returning to the FOB in Iraq...why carry weapons stateside? That makes WAY too much sense!


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## usmcvet (Jan 28, 2014)

I'm a small town cop.  We only have two cruisers. Each car has a haligan, sledge and 36" pair of bolt cutters. We know we need to respond to most calls alone, including an active shooter.  I am not waiting for back up and the Cops responding to my kids school better not either.  These fucking cowards need to be met quickly with accurate return fire.  They die when the police show up.  I think we should be offering training to those teachers, bus drivers, janitors and lunch ladies willing and dedicated to train and carry daily!


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## CQB (Jan 29, 2014)

I've only worked one place where they had a response for and active shooter. Head for the Fire Control Room, get on the EWIS and broadcast for everyone to evacuate. Keep in mind that no-one carries here except LEOs'. My current places (x2) of work have no official policy. One in particular should have something as it's a high foot traffic precinct.


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## pardus (Jan 29, 2014)

In an active shooter situation, as a member of the unarmed public... Good luck.


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## parallel (Jan 29, 2014)

Our LEO are trained to go in as soon as they get there without backup.


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## usmcvet (Jan 29, 2014)

pardus I agree.  It is a shitty situation.  The video hide, run, fight is cheesey like the stuff many of us cold war kids watch, duck and cover type videos or cartoons.  It is however a step in the right direction.  It is something I've told my elementary school children.  My son in particular, he is the oldest.  Two years ago I brought him to school for the first day and they'd started locking the doors.  At ten he looked at me and said but dad the doors are glass.  I smiled and said I know buddy.  It would slow someone down a little but not much.  I told him if he could to RUN!  He is little and he is fast.  We talked about the woods behind school, the corner store and the town offices and PD down the road as well as the three mile trek home.  Hiding under a desk waiting for some sick fuck to shoot you is no way to go.  Fighting back is an option when you can't run or hide.  These people are fucking cowards.  Hit them, stab them and choke them.  Better yet do all three at once.  Talk to your co workers and your family.

Share this video with them.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...=TlRmF5ybc_n5EdQKy1z9ng&bvm=bv.60157871,d.cWc


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## CQB (Jan 31, 2014)

The bad guys who attacked the Taj Hotel in Mumbai knocked on doors to flush people out. It would be difficult to know what to do in a situation like that.


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## usmcvet (Jan 31, 2014)

Very true. I'm thinking about a time where there is no doubt like Sandy Hook or VA Tech.


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## Rooster501 (Mar 25, 2014)

At my agency, the only backup you are waiting for is the gun on your hip (assuming your rifle is in your hand).


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## BloodStripe (Oct 6, 2014)

Not be these guys...


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## Kraut783 (Oct 6, 2014)

LOL....good times


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## policemedic (Oct 6, 2014)

SOTGWarrior said:


> Not be these guys...


 
Looks like suture practice for the medic.  Explosive breach without a helmet....:wall:


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## Muppet (Oct 6, 2014)

F.M.


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## Viper1 (Oct 6, 2014)

Someone wasn't listening during the "Calc and Place" module...


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## Kettenhund (Apr 21, 2015)

Agreed, standard LE doctrine is to neutralize the threat as quick as possible.  While we train to do this in teams of 4 or 5, each of us is prepared to do it alone if need be.  Historically, putting pressure on the active shooter makes him either turn the weapon on himself or on us and not the unarmed victims.  While getting shot at pisses me off, I'd rather get shot at than a student or office worker.  That's why they pay me, well one of the reasons!


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## Florida173 (Apr 21, 2015)

This is the poster in my office.. love the stool..


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## Grunt (Apr 21, 2015)

In today's world of "PC"...I am surprised they have a picture depicting that type of action....

Personally, I like it!


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## Florida173 (Apr 21, 2015)

Interestingly enough.. I'm sure there are some workplace guidance and OSHA standards that wouldn't allow scissors to be used in that manner, or at least no running with them.


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## BloodStripe (Apr 21, 2015)

At the Navy Yard shooting, one employee was hiding, and rather than leaving work without his CAC card, he decided to return and get it. Seconds later as he turned a corner back towards his office he was shot and killed. 

Moral of the story is screw your CAC card,you won't get fired for leaving it in your PC in the event of an active shooter.


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## Brill (Apr 24, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> Interestingly enough.. I'm sure there are some workplace guidance and OSHA standards that wouldn't allow scissors to be used in that manner, or at least no running with them.



That poster dude looks like he's prancing or floating vice running.


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## Red Flag 1 (Apr 24, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> This is the poster in my office.. love the stool..



It's never happened to me, but from what I've heard, these things can produce stools; big ones I'll bet.


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## HOLLiS (Apr 24, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> It's never happened to me, but from what I've heard, these things can produce stools; big ones I'll bet.


Wearing depends helps.


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## Matt D (May 30, 2015)

Having had to deal with taking the specific course the OP referenced on active shooters, I can say that the course is directed towards the unarmed civilian section of whatever agency you work for that offers the learning module. If you're LE, I'm going to place hard money on the fact that in an active shooter situation, you're going to fall back on whatever training your agency taught, and deal decisively with the threat.


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