# National Guard SF



## sgtlew (Jan 23, 2008)

Maybe this has been addressed before but I was unable to find a post.  I am just curious about what the active side thinks of the 19th and 20th groups.  I have heard different comments (mostly positive).  As far as I go, I have met a number of national guard (SF) members and find them to be every bit as professional and dedicated as their active counterparts.  What is your take?


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## car (Jan 24, 2008)

sgtlew said:


> Maybe this has been addressed before but I was unable to find a post.  I am just curious about what the active side thinks of the 19th and 20th groups.  I have heard different comments (mostly positive).  As far as I go, I have met a number of national guard (SF) members and find them to be every bit as professional and dedicated as their active counterparts.  What is your take?



I've worked with both. Some good and some bad, although mostly good. You're gonna have both in any organization.

But I got into it with a 19th Grp CPT in Al Kut over some ISWAT support he tried to pull from a mission I had planned - and didn't involve his team. Left a bad taste in my mouth, but, as I said, there are bad ones in every org.


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## surgicalcric (Jan 25, 2008)

I think we are just as dedicated if not moreso in some areas to be honest with you.  This isnt a weekend a month/2weeks in the summer job.  As well we are generally the last to be fielded a new piece of gear and thats only if our SOR is approved and the items requested dont end up going to whatever AD SF guys we are OPCON to.

That being said, there are good and there are bad SF soldiers in both the AD and the NG side of the house.  It really depends on the person more than anything else I have found.  There isnt a single factor which separates the NG from the AD teams like there was years ago.  

I would also venture to say that atleast 50% on my company is prior AD.

Crip


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## varsity (Jan 25, 2008)

surgicalcric said:


> I think we are just as dedicated if not moreso in some areas to be honest with you.  This isnt a weekend a month/2weeks in the summer job.  As well we are generally the last to be fielded a new piece of gear and thats only if our SOR is approved and the items requested dont end up going to whatever AF SF guys we are OPCON to.
> 
> That being said, there are good and there are bad SF soldiers in both the AD and the NG side of the house.  It really depends on the person more than anything else I have found.  There isnt a single factor which separates the NG from the AD teams like there was years ago.
> 
> ...



I agree with one exception.  The main difference in my opinion is that in some instances, the guard will bring more skill sets to theater.  Not in the traditional sense though.  You have to look at what guard SF guys are doing in the civ sector and it becomes apparent.  The range of different experiences is huge and can really come in handy downrange.  
    I have been on one set of orders or another for the last 5 years.  Give or take.  My real job is whoring myself out to the guard.  As far as experience goes, guard SF is almost always downrange in one form or another.  We have guys attached to active duty, working AST, at school, contracting, or simply deployed.  You even have guard run FOB's.  So as of right now, there's not much difference.  I leave you with this.  My last tm sgt.  said it best.  Granted, he was great at being angry and mean.  

"Don't be pissed off because your full time job is my hobby.  I only do this shit when there is a war on." 

He had a unique perspective.  Please don't take that last quote out of perspective.  He was only funnin!!;)


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## surgicalcric (Jan 26, 2008)

varsity said:


> I agree with one exception.  The main difference in my opinion is that in some instances, the guard will bring more skill sets to theater.  Not in the traditional sense though.  You have to look at what guard SF guys are doing in the civ sector and it becomes apparent.  The range of different experiences is huge and can really come in handy downrange...



I was going to mention this perspective in my earlier post but got sidetracked and forgot to bring it to light.  

We are a pretty diverse bunch who do bring things to the table most, not all, our AD brothers dont.  Many times our civilian jobs add to our proficiency in our 18-series MOS and other times we bring something new to the table.  For instance my ODA is comprised of the following: aeronautical engineer, construction manager, electronics engineer, investment banker/accountant, firefighter/paramedic, (2) LEO's, and a couple guard bums (guys who go from one deployment to the next with schools between).  7 of the 10 guys on my ODA have multiple deployments to OEF/OIF.  

We also have a SOT-A guy assigned to our ODA who is a computer securities engineer for IBM.

Pretty diverse bunch who are all down to earth except for the banker who thinks entirely too much.  whomever said you cant be too smart never met my Senior; too analytical that guy is...   

Again there are good and there are bad.  It cant be divided by AD vs NG.  I have run into just as many shit-bags from 7th Group and 3rd Group as I have ever known in the NG.  As well, most of the instructors I had in the SFQC could care less where I came from but there were a couple who hated my existence because I was a Nasty Girl, or atleast thats the excuse they used.  

Crip


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## Rabid Badger (Jan 26, 2008)

*Great descriptions of 'The Table'*

SF/NG brings a lot of different assets to the table that active don't (already discussed) 

My input would be that the last two 'fronts' have brought more to light the necessity of having a well trained and ready National Guard for not-so-much relief of the active duty SF'ers, but as SF ODA augmentees. 

Gone are the days of sitting around for 'drill' boozin and tellin war stories.....


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## Olive Drab (Jan 26, 2008)

with this optempo, is there any discussion about bringing back 11th and 12th?


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## varsity (Jan 26, 2008)

Olive Drab said:


> with this optempo, is there any discussion about bringing back 11th and 12th?


I haven't heard anything.  I doubt it will happen though.  The goal is to keep all the "combat MOS's" in the guard and all support in the reserves.  That would mean making 11th and 12th into NG units.  I don't foresee it.


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## 18C4V (Jan 27, 2008)

Olive Drab said:


> with this optempo, is there any discussion about bringing back 11th and 12th?



LOL,
They got problems trying to stand up a 4th bn for each of the NG Groups!!!

The problems that I see:

NG SF teams lack access to NET training (FBCB2, MMBJ, Raven B, ASK2) unlike the AD guys. Of course some of the NG SF units are co-located with AD Groups like 5/19th at Ft. Carson so access is not a issue. 

NG SF down to the team level does not have access to SIPIR which that's an issue.

NG SF B teams need more training in the technological side of running an OPCEN. It all boils down to having access to NET.

Of course NG SF needs more advanced school slots.....Some of the old timers have told me that if it wasn't the GWOT, we wouldn't have the schools that we gotten. I just assumed that it was normal OML stuff.


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## AWP (Jan 27, 2008)

18C4V said:


> Of course NG SF needs more advanced school slots.....Some of the old timers have told me that if it wasn't the GWOT, we wouldn't have the schools that we gotten. I just assumed that it was normal OML stuff.



I don't know when you hit Group, but I worked the Support side from '93-02. Schools weren't something that we or the ODAs got with a regular basis pre-9/11. It did get a little better about 98/99, but not much and equipment wise we were two generations behind the AD side in commo gear. 90% of our commo equipment were hand-me-downs from AD. School slots beyond basic MOS producing schools were rare. In the Support world we even had to fight to get slots at Ft. Gordon for some of our MOS as the Guard preferred to send guys to a weekend only school...so we lost members for 18 months to a process that should only take 3.

But at least FL had money for the ADA Brigade.


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## Rabid Badger (Jan 27, 2008)

Freefalling said:


> I don't know when you hit Group, but I worked the Support side from '93-02. Schools weren't something that we or the ODAs got with a regular basis pre-9/11. It did get a little better about 98/99, but not much and equipment wise we were two generations behind the AD side in commo gear. 90% of our commo equipment were hand-me-downs from AD. School slots beyond basic MOS producing schools were rare. In the Support world we even had to fight to get slots at Ft. Gordon for some of our MOS as the Guard preferred to send guys to a weekend only school...so we lost members for 18 months to a process that should only take 3.
> 
> But at least FL had money for the ADA Brigade.



Funny thing here: 

All the high speed schools usually have open stand-by slots. If you can get permission to drive or fly to Fay and have the guard unit pay for it...sometimes it may be a 'try' and turn around and go home....other times you'll get in and havta call back to the training NCO and let him know. 

Sometimes the optempo for AD-SF precludes them from attending (something happens worldwide-rapid unit callout). It's worth a try....


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## AWP (Jan 27, 2008)

That was the thing, the Guard wouldn't pay for squat. MOS producing schools only. Now I'm told it is much different, but back then we had jack, shit, and nothing.


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## varsity (Jan 28, 2008)

Freefalling said:


> That was the thing, the Guard wouldn't pay for squat. MOS producing schools only. Now I'm told it is much different, but back then we had jack, shit, and nothing.



It is different, There are only a couple of schools we don't get now.  And that's just because we are guard.  I think it's BS, but it is what it is.  By and large though, it's pretty easy to stay busy by being a MANSCOUT.....er guard SF.


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## AWP (Jan 28, 2008)

Good to hear varsity. It is a shame it took the GWOT to make it so.


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## sgtlew (Feb 3, 2008)

It is a shame that it's taken GWOT to get more training.  Our state is still lagging behind it seems.  Such is the nature of things I guess.  Thanks for all you input on the NG SF.  Great bunch of guys.


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## hidesite (Feb 5, 2008)

Along the same lines as the NG SF folks having additional intangible assets you will see an even larger shocking dichotomy within some of the NG LRS units since a LRS troop is basically an Airborne Infantryman or Communications Soldier by paragraph & line in their unit's MTOE and not the benefactor of the 18 series MOS pipeline of superior MOS training...

REAL examples: You'll have guy(s) who are owners of businesses; professors at major universities; Fire / Paramedic service professional; law enforcement professional to include local PD's and the alphabet groups; former AD Special operations and hard chargers from every branch of service whom have gotten out to get their college education and go back AD with a commission or just want to stay in a "team" environment at the tip of the spear and jump out of airplanes... 

And they all take a HUGE bust in rank back down to E-4 just to be in the unit since that is generally the highest ranking slot available. I've seen E-5's and E-6's with a plethora of civilian AND MILITARY experience take the voluntary admin bust and even O's resign their commission to be in a LRSU as a Spec-4. (One went from 1LT to E-3 and was tabbed)

What you end up with is guys whom on paper may be a primary MOS holder of 11B0P/V or 25CP/V slot (With a few other secondary identifiers, bells and whistles and etc...) but bringing far and above more to the table. 

Yes, a LRSU isn't USASOC asset, however they foster some of the great intangibles in their troops similar that of their big brother over in green beanie land. 

Without great sacrifice, there can be no great reward.


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## nobodythank you (Feb 10, 2008)

Freefalling said:


> But at least FL had money for the ADA Brigade.



Or kayaks? :doh:


LOL


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## AWP (Feb 10, 2008)

ke4gde said:


> Or kayaks? :doh:
> 
> 
> LOL



Fucking kayaks and the SCUBA team.....


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## DA SWO (Feb 10, 2008)

razor_baghdad said:


> Funny thing here:
> 
> All the high speed schools usually have open stand-by slots. If you can get permission to drive or fly to Fay and have the guard unit pay for it...sometimes it may be a 'try' and turn around and go home....other times you'll get in and havta call back to the training NCO and let him know.
> 
> ...



I put a couple of guys into jump school this way.  I'd just cut AT orders, and send their merry butts to GA for a month.


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## nobodythank you (Feb 10, 2008)

Freefalling said:


> Fucking kayaks and the SCUBA team.....



LMFAO  I almost forgot.  No ice cream for you! :confused:


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## AWP (Feb 10, 2008)

ke4gde said:


> LMFAO  I almost forgot.  No ice cream for you! :confused:



What was funny about that were the two guys that had their jaws wired shut that very year standing up for me, ready to scrap if needed. I miss 'em.

Enough hijack, back to the thread. :)


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## Ravage (Feb 15, 2008)

Ok, since we are talking about SF in the NG thought you all would wanna check THIS out.

A docu "Hunting the Taliban", it's about an National Guard ODA from 1/20 SFG(A) in Afghanistan.


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## surgicalcric (Mar 10, 2008)

Ravage said:


> Ok, since we are talking about SF in the NG thought you all would wanna check THIS out.
> 
> A docu "Hunting the Taliban", it's about an National Guard ODA from 1/20 SFG(A) in Afghanistan.



Those guys look pretty familiar... Oh yeah, thats my ODA...

Crip


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## jester281 (Apr 18, 2008)

Did a stint in 11th at Dix 93-94. All were prior AD. Worked with 'em in both gulfs and on a couple contracts across the pond. No worries other than the normal chemistry or the delusions of youth.:2c:


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## Ajax (Jun 16, 2008)

18C4V said:


> LOL,
> They got problems trying to stand up a 4th bn for each of the NG Groups!!!
> 
> The problems that I see:
> ...



19th DOES>:{ have access to NET training.  The problem is funding troops to go to the NET training.  We could have guys in school year round if we could find  a pot of money to pay them.  There is always the "points only" option, which is a load of crap and a slap in the face as far as I'm concerned.  For those of you not familiar with the guard, points only orders are where you are on orders, receive points towards your retirment, but receive a no pay due.

The issue with 19th and 20th isn't the caliber of SF trooper in the ranks.  It's the layers of paper work and command structure to get money and approval.  I use this analogy.  You are a 10 year old boy who likes to do boy things.  You live with your mom (the state in which your SF unit is assigned).  You tell your mom you want karate lessons.  Your Mom tells your Dad (USASOC, etc) to cough up some extra child support for Karate lessons.  Your Dad sends extra money to the child support office (Group HQ, Utah Natl Guard).  The Child Support office takes a little off the top (all those Mormon kids aren't going to feed themselves!) and then sends the Karate money to your Mom.  Your Mom has a flat tire and uses the Karate money to fix the car.  You go without karate lessons and learn how to fight on the street.  You come back and teach all your friends how to fight on the street and start your own company, winning a govt contract.  Your Mom gets mad at you for doing things without her permission and tells you to take your hands out of your pockets.  I digress.

There is a stigma in being "part-time" SF.  I believe this comes from the days of the "paper-tabber".  There was a time when NG personnel attended the SFQC via correspondence course and MTT's.  No offense to any high speed paper tabbers out there, but my experience with the the ones I have met has not been at all positive.  These guys are becoming extinct.  And with all the experience from the past few years and civilian jobs, guard SF guys are worth their weight in gold.  We will always have to prove ourselves to our AD brothers.  I don't see that as such a bad thing.  It just makes us try harder.

One more advantage to NG SF:  We don't give a fuck.  Mission first.  This isn't our career, so if some light bird wants to shit down our neck for taking care of our boys our completing the mission the way it's supposed to be done, it doesn't have a lasting effect.  We'll just go off orders and make six-figures serving our country elsewhere.  (Ironically, I think this could be one source of resentment from AD guys).>:{


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## Ajax (Jun 17, 2008)

Olive Drab said:


> with this optempo, is there any discussion about bringing back 11th and 12th?



11th and 12th were Army Reserve units.  19th and 20th are Nasty Guard.  There were money and political reasons for deactivating the reserve units.  I'm not old enought to remember them.  But I've heard tales.  

Short answer is:  probably not.  Especially with the addition of 4th Bn's.


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## rockclimber (Mar 2, 2010)

*question*

Gentlemen,

having stepped on my crank earlier by starting a new thread instead of posting in this one, I am now in the right place and would like to pose some questions to the BTDTs.

To frontload some info about myself:  I'm about to graduate college and am weighing my options, trying to decide between a NG Rep-63 and an AD 18x contract.
This thread has been helpful in answering some of my questions.  I've also PMed some board members and the responses I got were very varied.  Some responses I got were along the lines of:



> Guard SF requires _a lot_ more commitment than one weekend a month and two weeks a year.  NG SF is always a compromise.  You'll be gone so much it will be hard to keep a civilian job, let alone complete a masters degree.  Basically, National Guard SF is just like AD, but without the pay and benefits.



Could you gentlemen humor me and break things down a bit more?  I know that a lot of guys serving on NG have jobs with the government in LE etc., so it's no problem for them to go on deployments.  Is it a common thing though for guys to be going to grad school while also serving on a detachment?

I'm not trying to stir the pot by eliciting responses like "GO XY, it's better than YZ".
I'm just trying to make an informed decision and it seems that if NG SF is a compromise to such an extent that I wouldn't have the opportunity to "progress my civilian life" I might as well join AD and have a steady income and less headaches trying to complete my masters degree between JCETS and deployments. 

Thank you for your time.


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## JJ sloan (Mar 2, 2010)

I am finishing my degree and have been on a NG detachment for some time now.  Some guys choose to do more than the minimum NG requirements, that is why they are always deployed.  I am one of those guys and have not had a "real job" since 2002.  Nevertheless, it is possible to hold down a job, go to school and do the NG SF thing.  I know alot of guys that do.  Good luck with whatever you decide.


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## surgicalcric (Mar 2, 2010)

I concur with my brother.

I am one of those guys who has chased deployments and schools staying on orders since 2004 with another deployment coming up shortly.  

NG SF is different than AD in quite a few aspects many of which are more political than anything else.  Others have to do with the amount of time we put into team related needs prior to and after deployments in the evenings after leaving our civilian jobs.  That said, I cannot imagine doing anything other than this -including being AD.

As for jobs, many of us are firefighters, paramedics, LEO, FBI, DSS, NASA rocket propulsion engineers, etc...as well as other civilian sector jobs.  

Being NG SF requires a greater dedication than a weekend a month/ 2-weeks in the summer.  It is life altering and worth every minute...

And FWIW, there are several guys who finished their undergrad degrees on my last trip and I hope to finish my grad degree during this trip.  

Best of luck in your decision.

Crip


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## Trip_Wire (Mar 2, 2010)

I'd have to agree that that things within a State controlled military unit can be be more political then a Reserve unit, having served in the Air NG. My time in the SF was in a Reserve(s) unit 17th & 12th SFG(A). IMO, it was a large mistake to do away with the SF Reserve Groups. I think the should have gone the other way or better yet leave it the way it was.  As I recall an NG SF Group in Alabama had a few political based problems.

I understand some people devoting a lot of time to their chosen Reserve or NG unit; however, I can also see why such devotion to their unit and and does cause them to have problems with their civilian job, which in most cases is their real pay check and career. I know as an LEO supervisor I had people who continually asked for schools and or active duty assignments. This of course, leaves that LE unit and or shift with one less man/women, whose position can't be replaced. This get's old in a hurry. In most cases the LE field is still better at accepting these continued absences then the average civilian jobs. I know in my own case, I had to walk a delicate line with both my careers; especially being a Bomb Technician and SWAT team Commander. It is especially expensive and time consuming to train a Bomb Tech and the unit is small as well.

In many cases, one has to decide which career he/she wants to do the best with, especially in pursuing promotions and/or special jobs, within their civilian job.


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## meow (Dec 11, 2012)

With no intention of trying to revive an old discussion, would anyone happen to have a working link/way to watch the aforementioned NG SF ODA documentary("Hunting the Taliban")?


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## MilkTruckCoPilot (Dec 11, 2012)

I thought I had a better link for you but it's busted..


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## Ravage (Dec 12, 2012)

I have acces to it. PM me for details.


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## Lefty375 (Dec 12, 2012)

Ravage said:


> I have acces to it. PM me for details.


 

Your inbox is full, I would like to check it out, so shoot me a PM if you have time! 

Thanks Ravage


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## CDG (Dec 12, 2012)

Ravage said:


> I have acces to it. PM me for details.


 
Any particular reason you can't just post the link?


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## AWP (Dec 12, 2012)

CDG said:


> Any particular reason you can't just post the link?


 
Because if it belongs to a torrent site we don't want it on the board. PM away, but not in the open.


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## MilkTruckCoPilot (Dec 12, 2012)

I would like to see it again as well Ravage, PM me when you can.


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## Ravage (Dec 12, 2012)

It's not from a torrent site or anything. Uploading it onto a private server. But as FF stated, we'll keep it via PMs. I'll clear my PM box.


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## OldMan (Aug 6, 2013)

Let me ask, if I want to go to SF in the guard, I have heard that SF prefers if you have not akready attended a bunch of schools (ARC, RSLC,etc) and for the same reason they prefer to recruit from lower enlisted or e-5 and below, because (presumably) you may have learned this or that which is not necessarily how it is done in SF. Is this true?

I already have reservations for ARC, RSLC, and ARC this FY, but if im just spinning my wheels then maybe I should adjust fire.


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## x SF med (Aug 6, 2013)

OldMan said:


> Let me ask, if I want to go to SF in the guard, I have heard that SF prefers if you have not akready attended a bunch of schools (ARC, RSLC,etc) and for the same reason they prefer to recruit from lower enlisted or e-5 and below, because (presumably) you may have learned this or that which is not necessarily how it is done in SF. Is this true?
> 
> I already have reservations for ARC, RSLC, and ARC this FY, but if im just spinning my wheels then maybe I should adjust fire.


 
Just because one graduated from a bunch of schools does not mean one is trainable nor that one is fit for SF...  It is very possible that that individual is nothing but a badgefinder whose command knows the best way to keep that individual from screwing up the command is to keep them TDY-T, and allow them to promote by virtue of points.  This may or may not be your case, it is not an aspersion, just a general observation.

Have you passed SFRE?  Have you talked to the NG SF recruiters?  Have you talked to anybody in the NG SF units around you?  It sure does not sound like it...  which is a huge fail, you are asking somebody else to do your leg work there Sarge, which is very un-NCO, and definitely not wht SF is looking for.   Go back to "GO"  - do not collect $200, do not post on this thread or any other thread asking anything about SF until you do a little research (like wtf SF is all about), and then let us know why it appears you have been farmed out to so many schools ...  and the answer "I was Guard bumming, but non-deployable" is a fair answer - not a good  answer but a fair one.

In another post you listed a bunch of training that would have taken 14 months to complete in one year - to include an MOS change...  and you are looking at another MOS change in a year...  an MOS that at a minimum is 2 years to achieve if you get selected?    Something is not right here, you need to be honest and upfront about your background.  How many MOS's have you had on your way to "making NCO" last year?

You opened the can of worms - convince us that we should eat them.


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## OldMan (Aug 6, 2013)

Wow SF med..you're a real sweetheart, but your remarks are very incendiary. So much for the "quiet professional". And I take great personal offense that you made every effort to call me a liar (re: "Something is not right here, you need to be honest and upfront about your background")

So this is not really how I wanted the introduction to go, I only put in my intro what I thought was expected, but nonetheless - you're gonna get exactly what you asked for. So how do you like your worms?  Pan-seared, sauteed, broiled? I prefer them Buffalo style, with habanero, so you can feel the burn. As a medic, I'm sure you can remedy that.

Now, you might recognise from my moniker that I'm no spring chicken, my ears dried up a ling time ago. I got off active duty (92Y) back in 1999. Before the war. When Iraq happened I was almost a senior in college. And I mean a real college, not some bull**** online school designed only to give any moron promotion points. Finished my first degree in Mass Communications (Advertising/Public Relations), during which time I worked in an Advertising Department where I was eventually promoted to manage that office. Concurrently, I also was in the National Guard doing Public Affairs. We were never deployed when I got out in '04. I was never mos-q, they let me stay because of my degree. I finished college and the army at the same time. Worked in PR forbade year and went back to grad school, where I studied Anthropology, which is inclusive of a lot of psychology and theology. So you can ask your PsyOps guys if I know the material.....

After Grad school, I decided I wanted more challenges. I wanted to be a scout since forever and just decided that's the way it had to be. But no one would put a 92Y in a 19D slot. So I came back in '09 as a 92Y, worked myself over to a RSTA unit and after 3 long years of paperwork moving at national guard speed, I finally got my Stetson. And I'm happy.

I was even more happy that my unit was going to deploy this year in fact! I was finally going to be a real scout. And when our deployment papers came down the wire, the budget opened up like Pamela Andersons shirt on Baywatch. 

Now, I have good relations with my leadership and they know I can do the work. I was 3 times scheduled for Pathfinder actually. It was pulled last June and last November. In Nov, they quickly put me in Javelin since it cost a lot less. And I got WLC bc I told them I needed training - I already had the point from time in service and college to be promoted. So I went to WLC. In March, they sent 12 of us to Air Assault. I would have gone 35M instead but it was a last minute deal and they couldn't finish paperwork in time. So after they had given my seat at AA away, I actually got it back when 35M fell through. To substitute for the 35M loss, we sent 4 guys to COIST. Hardly an adequate trade off, but whatever.

I got scheduled and reserved for Pathfinder in June and had COIST in May. They asked me if I wanted RSLC instead of those 2, the times conflicted. I chose Pathfinder not bc of the darn badge, but bc it is much harder to get.

Now our deployment was cancelled for October. We're all sitting here hummed out, and I hate that I have no deployment. So I want to go SF on order to do something.

So my unit knows me, trusts that I can pass the courses with ease, and has lined me up for them. But we all know how easily those hopes can be dashed bc some commander decides its more important to uit money into a new weight room rather than training. However, I know that ARC is a priority, that is the only course I am most likely to attend now that budget cuts are happening. That's why I scheduled RSLC for the very beginning of the Fiscal Year, to try and hold on to it. I'd say odds for RSLC is pretty slim, but for ARC it is pretty good. And for ALC it is 50/50. We'll see.

I git the RSLC slot bc I just got up'ped to e5 and moved to another unit, a rival unit. So I asked my training NCO to put me in, and just inspire of my new unit, he did (and he was sure not to put me into a unit slot which would have stayed with the unit when I left, but my slit is at brigade bc we git cinnections, so that strengthens my position, and gives me more hope that I'll actually attend). In the end though, its a win for everyone.

As for you. I came here bc you got it backwards. I'm not going to formally make any declarations to the SF recruiters until I get my ducks in a row. This IS the leg work. I'll go see a recruiter when I'm good and damn ready and that's none of your business.

But I can see you've been hurt before. You're a tender child and that's why you cry and complain. Unfortunately, I lack empathy. I'm an old man, too old to give a shi* about your feelings. So, if I get to go to the Q, I hope you're there. I hope you're my medic. I'll let you be the first one to smoke me (I can see that you can't handle anything, so I won't be intimidated.)

"Fear not those things which can harm the body, rather, fear that which causes you to lose your soul." - Jesus Christ


S enjoy the worms, enjoy them one at a time. Enjoy the burn.

I won't avail myself to answer any more of your pedantic questions though. Better to get your own issues in order before you go trying to pick on others for having more success. It didnt take 14 months, it took 13. You can check that on ATRRS. So eat your worms. Eat them one at a time.  It's the only comfort you will find.


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## OldMan (Aug 6, 2013)

And nevermind the spelling..i did this from a little cell phone. I'm not proofing it.

Just to clarify: I was offered the first RSLC when we had a budget. But later, I asked for it again and was given it bc a) they know I'll pass, and b) they did it to mess with the other unit. Our budget now is bone dry, and ill be lucky to hold that reservation anyway, but I'm in the best possible position to make it happen.


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## ProPatria (Aug 6, 2013)

You have a serious fucking attitude. How well do you think it will go for you for calling out a verified SF soldier. You want to join a brotherhood that this member is a part of and has been for years. I'm so dumb founded by your comments I can't continue. Have a good day and hopefully you enjoy your time here because it probably won't be to long.


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## DA SWO (Aug 6, 2013)

OldMan said:


> Wow SF med..you're a real sweetheart, but your remarks are very incendiary. So much for the "quiet professional". And I take great personal offense that you made every effort to call me a liar (re: "Something is not right here, you need to be honest and upfront about your background")
> 
> YOUR POST
> 
> I won't avail myself to answer any more of your pedantic questions though. Better to get your own issues in order before you go trying to pick on others for having more success. It didnt take 14 months, it took 13. You can check that on ATRRS. So eat your worms. Eat them one at a time.  It's the only comfort you will find.



Congrats on the spurs.
Your SA is a little weak though.  SF/LRSC and other fields have small communities, smaller if it's Guard in a State like TX.
Folks here know, are friends, co-workers with the people you need to talk too.
NG SF has a waiting list, they can be, and are, picky when letting people in.  
Good luck.


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## AWP (Aug 6, 2013)

SOWT said:


> Congrats on the spurs.
> Your SA is a little weak though.  SF/LRSC and other fields have small communities, smaller if it's Guard in a State like TX.
> Folks here know, are friends, co-workers with the people you need to talk too.
> NG SF has a waiting list, they can be, and are, picky when letting people in.
> Good luck.


 
We have at least one member of this board who is in one the TX SF Companies.


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## AWP (Aug 6, 2013)

I don't think this is any country for OldMan, friendo.


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## AWP (Aug 6, 2013)

Mike (do you prefer Michael?),
You may read this, you may not, I don't care. However brusque x SF Med may be, the fact remains that you are a nobody with poor situational awareness. If only the Army had an MOS dedicated to finding information..., but I digress.

SF Med's concerns are very, very valid whether you agree with them or not. You also chose to open your chocolate starfish on a respected member of the community. Not just this board, but THE community. I have no doubt that your post above will filter through the SF ranks in due course.

Whatever chip on your shoulder, and it is a large chip at that, it doesn't have a place here. I won't waste my time with any further rebuttal as I doubt your arrogant ass would learn from it anyway.

Best of luck in your future endeavors.

Eat your worms. The whole damn can.


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## AWP (Aug 7, 2013)

Alright folks, we're back in business.


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## x SF med (Aug 7, 2013)

As a response to the diatribe in order , should the OP decide to visit and read it:



> Wow SF med..you're a real sweetheart, but your remarks are very incendiary. So much for the "quiet professional". And I take great personal offense that you made every effort to call me a liar (re: "Something is not right here, you need to be honest and upfront about your background")


 
I am not a sweetheart, nor were the remarks incendiary - there was no calling you a liar, there was a frank request for clarification of your background based on salient items being glossed over or left out of your request for this board's help in your decision to join MY Regiment - facts not only salient, but germane and important to your character and military record.



> So this is not really how I wanted the introduction to go, I only put in my intro what I thought was expected, but nonetheless - you're gonna get exactly what you asked for. So how do you like your worms?  Pan-seared, sauteed, broiled? I prefer them Buffalo style, with habanero, so you can feel the burn. As a medic, I'm sure you can remedy that.


 
This should actually have been your first paragraph, it loses some of its sarcastic fire not being the lead in to your rebuttal of my original posting.  so be it, so it goes.



> Now, you might recognise from my moniker that I'm no spring chicken, my ears dried up a ling time ago. I got off active duty (92Y) back in 1999. Before the war. When Iraq happened I was almost a senior in college. And I mean a real college, not some bull**** online school designed only to give any moron promotion points. Finished my first degree in Mass Communications (Advertising/Public Relations), during which time I worked in an Advertising Department where I was eventually promoted to manage that office. Concurrently, I also was in the National Guard doing Public Affairs. We were never deployed when I got out in '04. I was never mos-q, they let me stay because of my degree. I finished college and the army at the same time. Worked in PR forbade year and went back to grad school, where I studied Anthropology, which is inclusive of a lot of psychology and theology. So you can ask your PsyOps guys if I know the material.....


 
The above, although a series of run on sentences, poorly constructed and full of vituperative invective, will be addressed:   I do not care your age, nor is it a vital part of the conversation unless you are physically unable to attend SFRE, SFAS or SFQC - I know people probably older than you are now that can PT almost anybody into the dirt, and one of them only has one leg, and btw is a NG SF NCO...  pardon my digression.  I got off active duty probably before you enlisted, I had multiple college degrees before you got off active duty, I went to Texas Christian University... before (SMP, then went AD)  and after my enlistment..  so, how does this make you more anything?  I studied anthropology, and philosophy, and engineering and got degrees in English Literature, History and Business/Finance.  Btw, Dr. Andrew Miracle taught me most of my anthro...  ever heard of him?  Paul Boller  and Ben Procter werre my History advisors...  so don't get all academia centric on me - you arrogant little egocentric puke.  Oh, and have you ever really worked with PsyOps or host country humanitarian teams?  This section is done.



> After Grad school, I decided I wanted more challenges. I wanted to be a scout since forever and just decided that's the way it had to be. But no one would put a 92Y in a 19D slot. So I came back in '09 as a 92Y, worked myself over to a RSTA unit and after 3 long years of paperwork moving at national guard speed, I finally got my Stetson. And I'm happy.


 
I was mech Infantry in SMP, did BAC and CTLT, got out of the Guard, went to Benning on an 11X contract with a SF rider on the contract...  so.... 11B, 18B, 18D, 54E, 91B and cross trained with Admin crap because somebody had to do it...  so, Wah! to the above... 



> I was even more happy that my unit was going to deploy this year in fact! I was finally going to be a real scout. And when our deployment papers came down the wire, the budget opened up like Pamela Andersons shirt on Baywatch.


 
I assume this means you were going to get schools? 



> Now, I have good relations with my leadership and they know I can do the work. I was 3 times scheduled for Pathfinder actually. It was pulled last June and last November. In Nov, they quickly put me in Javelin since it cost a lot less. And I got WLC bc I told them I needed training - I already had the point from time in service and college to be promoted. So I went to WLC. In March, they sent 12 of us to Air Assault. I would have gone 35M instead but it was a last minute deal and they couldn't finish paperwork in time. So after they had given my seat at AA away, I actually got it back when 35M fell through. To substitute for the 35M loss, we sent 4 guys to COIST. Hardly an adequate trade off, but whatever.


 
the budget was open, but the good schools went to the guys who would actually be deploying?  is that what the above means - it is not clear.  Except that your unit was deploying, but you were going to be scheduled for a lot of schools. and you just got your 19D after moving over from 92Y, but wanted to move to 35M which got canxd, so now you want to look into SF?   That's the way it reads...



> I got scheduled and reserved for Pathfinder in June and had COIST in May. They asked me if I wanted RSLC instead of those 2, the times conflicted. I chose Pathfinder not bc of the darn badge, but bc it is much harder to get.


 
So, instead of taking the MOS appropriate school when offered - in a good place to put you as a TL since you just got your E-5, you went to Pathfinder.



> Now our deployment was cancelled for October. We're all sitting here hummed out, and I hate that I have no deployment. So I want to go SF on order to do something.


 
Sorry to hear you can't deploy - the new budget sucks.



> So my unit knows me, trusts that I can pass the courses with ease, and has lined me up for them. But we all know how easily those hopes can be dashed bc some commander decides its more important to uit money into a new weight room rather than training. However, I know that ARC is a priority, that is the only course I am most likely to attend now that budget cuts are happening. That's why I scheduled RSLC for the very beginning of the Fiscal Year, to try and hold on to it. I'd say odds for RSLC is pretty slim, but for ARC it is pretty good. And for ALC it is 50/50. We'll see.


 
It's command's fault that you took a high $$ non-MOS appropriate school when this was offered and now you may not get the MOS appropriate school because the funding may not be there... and you arenot to blame at all for turning it down?



> I git the RSLC slot bc I just got up'ped to e5 and moved to another unit, a rival unit. So I asked my training NCO to put me in, and just inspire of my new unit, he did (and he was sure not to put me into a unit slot which would have stayed with the unit when I left, but my slit is at brigade bc we git cinnections, so that strengthens my position, and gives me more hope that I'll actually attend). In the end though, its a win for everyone.


 
You were moved to a rival unit, after you got Pathfinder, before you got rescheduled for RSLC, and after you had just been promoted to E-5...  because you have connections at Brigade, and your original unit losing a highly trained new NCO is a win-win... because you finally got the MOS appropriate school you had turned down...  Not sure I understand this, but OK...



> As for you. I came here bc you got it backwards. I'm not going to formally make any declarations to the SF recruiters until I get my ducks in a row. This IS the leg work. I'll go see a recruiter when I'm good and damn ready and that's none of your business.


 
Sorry buddy...  MY REGIMENT, MY Brothers, my business.  the recruiters and SFRE and  SFAS and SFQC are there for reasons you will probably never understand.  No declarations are needed to the recruiters if you are researching options and your ability to join the Regiment based on current needs and standards... it happens all of the time.



> But I can see you've been hurt before. You're a tender child and that's why you cry and complain. Unfortunately, I lack empathy. I'm an old man, too old to give a shi* about your feelings. So, if I get to go to the Q, I hope you're there. I hope you're my medic. I'll let you be the first one to smoke me (I can see that you can't handle anything, so I won't be intimidated.)


 
It sounds as though you resent the time you spent in supply and are trying to make up for what you see as 'lost' time - even though it allowed you to use your GI Bill and get all of your degrees...  your perceived inadequacies in your military career are on par with that hated Major in the movie Heartbreak Ridge who was asked "where did you come from before the Infantry?"  and answers "Supply, Sir"  "Were you good at it?"  "Yes, sir"  "Well I suggest you go back because you are a walking cluster fuck as an Infantryman." 

If I hadn't been hurt, I wouldn't be where I am today.   There is not much tender about me - poll this board - my friends are my friends - the Regiment is my Honor and my integrity will never be marred.  I have nothing to prove, it's already been proven, I am an SF NCO, I earned it.

Your attitude and your immaturity will keep you from ever getting to SF...  but try... 



> "Fear not those things which can harm the body, rather, fear that which causes you to lose your soul." - Jesus Christ


 
Although your placement of this quote is irrelevant, I have nothing to fear - my soul is intact - my mitzvah has been asked and is still in progress, I have regrets, but I have already atoned for them, I would to this day give my life for my family, my brothers in arms, my country and my God...  my honor, my integrity and my soul are intact.




> S enjoy the worms, enjoy them one at a time. Enjoy the burn.
> 
> I won't avail myself to answer any more of your pedantic questions though. Better to get your own issues in order before you go trying to pick on others for having more success. It didnt take 14 months, it took 13. You can check that on ATRRS. So eat your worms. Eat them one at a time.  It's the only comfort you will find.


 
wow...   Have a nice day.

Oh...  every SF guy knows ... worms are always eaten raw.


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## Marauder06 (Aug 7, 2013)

"Character" is who you are when you think you're operating in the absence of consequences.

The Internet is great for evaluating character, because people think "it's just the Internet" and there are no consequences with regard to the way they comport themselves.  

They are wrong.

The military in general, and SOF in particular, is an extremely interconnected organization.  SF, in my on-the-periphery-only experience, is an extremely interconnected organization with a very low tolerance for assclownery.  There are posts in this thread that represent unmitigated assclownery.  I can't help but wonder if the person who made those posts, looking back at this thread many years from now, having never achieved his goal of becoming SF, might recall this failed test of character and wonder if the two might somehow be connected.  Especially given that the poster's real name and unit are known on this site, and our site has many members in the National Guard's SF units throughout the country.  Who knows what might happen?

What you do on this site matters.  The Internet really isn't anonymous, anyone can find out who anyone is.  Consequences abound.   Humility, tact, and situational awareness are all good to keep in mind.

So, my advice as a non-SF guy to any wannabe SF guys out there:  everything you do matters.  You will constantly be challenged, tested, evaluated, and measured.  Character is a fundamental attribute of successful service in SOF.  Demonstrate a fundamental character flaw, or multiple ones like those exposed in this thread, and it's extremely unlikely that you will have a long and successful career in SOF.  In fact, it's probably better that you never even try to join the community.  If you can't comport yourself in a professional manner on the Internet, how are you going to do it in SOF?  Think your Team Sergeant won't test you, that your team won't try you when you first show up, or that the tribal chief you're trying to engage won't want to vett your bona fides?  Yes, the Internet is different than real life.  But one's character comes though in both, and what I saw in this thread raises concern about the character about one site member in particular.

Sorry, I mean "former site member."  Oldman, even though we banned you I'm sure your ego won't allow you to stay away so these next couple of comments are for you.  The war has been going on for 12+ years and you've never managed to deploy once.  That's... cool I guess.  :-/  Good thing the rest of us the Army had you in all those schools while we were off fighting the war.  Thanks for that.  I rest better knowing that you were at Pathfinder, WLC, COIST, YMCA... whatever it was you were doing while the rest of us were in places like Ramadi, Basrah, Mosul, Tikrit, Helmand, Kandahar, and the Korengal.  I'm sure that gives you the right to barge into our little corner of the Internet and act the fool.  x SF had no right to question your background, and Freefalling was probably just being mean when he banned you.  I mean, after all, with your extensive SOF credentials, we should have accepted you into our ranks without question, right?  

I admit I didn't get very far in reading your missive above, it was TLDR length for sure, and after I read the second paragraph I knew you were going to get banned,  but I felt I had to address this:



> And I mean a real college, not some bull**** online school designed only to give any moron promotion points.



:whatever:  seriously, you're going there with us?  I'm sorry that we were off FIGHTING THE WAR and the best we could do was online programs, crammed in amongst everything else we had going on.  Blasting people for getting an online education when you've been in uniform for... (how many years, exactly?) while you never.deployed.one.single.time seems a bit... I don't know, desperate.  And just plain stupid.  You know how many people on this site have online degrees?  I don't... but I know it's quite a few.  We do what we can with with we've got, we're not all blessed with the ability to do B&M schools.  I am one of the people on this site who have an online degree.  It was the first of my three graduate degrees, the most recent of which is from Yale.  So I'll play the "my education is better than yours" game with you if you want.  And I'll put whatever educational creds you think you have against those of any number of people on this site.  Just because you went to school doesn't mean you're smart, as your posts in this thread show.

But most of us who can actually see past the ivory tower realize that a fancy piece of paper is not a measure of one's intellect.  Every time I have had a question about something important, or wanted to run an idea past someone, I posted it up on this site.  I did during my entire grad school experience, I do it now in my teaching job, and when I go back to get my PhD, I'll do it then, too.  Why is that?  Because I'm not afraid to admit that there are a hell of a lot of people on this site who are a hell of a lot smarter than I am, regardless of where or even whether they went to college.  There are also a lot of site members whose formal education far exceeds mine; they're just to modest to bring it up.  And they would certainly never disparage the education of others.

Even though I know your real name and your current unit, I'm not going to call up your chain of command.  I'm sure that they have better things to do with their time than deal with this, and I'm also willing to bet that they already know what kind of person you really are.  But if I were in your chain of command, and I read this thread, I would remember it for the rest of the time you were in my unit, and I would think back to it every time you wanted another school, came up for promotion, or were being considered for a leadership position or a deployment.  I think you represented your unit, your MOS, and the NCO Corps terribly in this thread.

As far as x SF goes, you would be fortunate to have him by your side, either on the battlefield or in the classroom.  Not only is he highly skilled and highly intelligent, he is a man of good character.  You should be emulating him, not irritating him.  You are an idiot for doing the latter.

I'm done here, I need to go ask my friends with online degrees and no degrees at all to help me with another project.  Too bad there's not a non-SOF, graduate-of-a-bunch-of-schools-no-one-cares-about, educational-elitist-but-never-been-deployed site member around here anymore, I'm sure his input would have been very useful.


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## Rabid Badger (Aug 7, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> "Character" is who you are when you think you're operating in the absence of consequences.
> 
> The Internet is great for evaluating character, because people think "it's just the Internet" and there are no consequences with regard to the way they comport themselves.
> 
> ...


 and that evaluation began with your intro.

For others out there with an acid tongue paying attention to this thread, probably 25% of the board either lives in Fayetteville / Fort Bragg, have lived here before or are planning on "visiting" in the future. Some have worked at SFAS and the SFQC, SERE, SFSC, MFFJM, JSOC and various other units in the near vicinity.

Choose your words wisely, especially of you use your real name to intro. We'll be at inprocessing at one of the above mentioned schools (or we know folks who will be), so come hard (and SA smart) or stay home.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 7, 2013)

Outstanding post M06!

I've held back from posting here b/c I wanted to get the ball rolling on the other end. As a medically retired NG NCO (who was busy deploying, training others deploying and deploying again, while you went to school) I am disgusted with your post Oldman.

X SF was right to bring into question your claims, as someone who spent 10+years in the Guard, I question the validity of your posted accomplishments here. I also do not take your statements on here lightly, b/c as a conventional soldier I have been accepted and treated with respect on this SOF forum by its SOF membership. Than someone like you comes on here and bashes the very member who has accepted me for the past 5 years on this forum. It's very irritating for myself and many of the other NG members to have you come on here and act a fool, it makes us all look bad every time some SF wannabe NG soldier comes on here and shows his ass.

So with that said, I've got your name Micheal Rxxxxx, and your unit, and I've passed it on to a 36th ID CSM friend of mine, who I am sure you will be hearing from. You did open a can of worms and you will be expected to eat them.


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## Red Flag 1 (Aug 8, 2013)

Outstanding response, Mara; as usual. You have spoken from the very heart and soul of this board. Perhaps this will be a turning point in Oldman's career, and it may be an abrupt awakening. One, really, can not go after someone on this board with X SF's creds, and get away with it. I am stunned at the degree of arrogant posturing displayed. I expect, in the end, that few will be surprised to hear of Michael Rxxxxx's missteps. It is very likely he has been here before, just not quite as bad. The comments of "Oldman" were directed at X SF, but we all take it personally. Again, great response, Mara.


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## Red Ryder (Aug 10, 2013)

NGSF has launched a new website-

http://www.nationalguardsf.com/


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## AWP (Aug 10, 2013)

La Roux said:


> NGSF has launched a new website-
> 
> http://www.nationalguardsf.com/


 
With that link everyone, the next clown who comes in here with the "What do I do?" post receives a free, digital cock punch. Probably 95% of all Q&A's are answered there.

Does this sound familiar?



> *Why haven't I received a response?*
> Candidates must fit a narrow criteria; *more than likely you didn't follow directions*, didn't fit all the requirements, or simply are not what we are looking for.


 
Awesome find, La Roux.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Aug 10, 2013)

WOW!!!!

Old guy really made me feel like a turd....I have no college.....and no cool schools....:wall::blkeye:


But back to SGTLew's original question.......I worked with 19th GRP and have nothing but good to say about them......


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## Red Ryder (Aug 13, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> With that link everyone, the next clown who comes in here with the "What do I do?" post receives a free, digital cock punch. Probably 95% of all Q&A's are answered there.
> 
> Does this sound familiar?
> 
> ...


Thank you. I was glad to find it, it does answer a lot of questions I have or had. Was able to get in contact with 19th Group in Columbus and I'm attending a  briefing in the beginning of September.


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## AWP (Aug 13, 2013)

La Roux said:


> Thank you. I was glad to find it, it does answer a lot of questions I have or had. Was able to get in contact with 19th Group in Columbus and I'm attending a  briefing in the beginning of September.


 
Slow down, tiger, you mean to tell us a wannabe went out and did his own legwork without relying on others to do the work for him? You were a self-starter?

I don't even know what to think. You just divided by zero.


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## Red Ryder (Aug 14, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> Slow down, tiger, you mean to tell us a wannabe went out and did his own legwork without relying on others to do the work for him? You were a self-starter?
> 
> I don't even know what to think. You just divided by zero.


I found the site through Facebook of all places, I follow 19th and 20th Group. 20th Group posted about the new site and there it is.
I've read that SF looks for self-starters so thanks Free


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## Squidward (Aug 20, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> Slow down, tiger, you mean to tell us a wannabe went out and did his own legwork without relying on others to do the work for him? You were a self-starter?
> 
> I don't even know what to think. You just divided by zero.



(Channeling my best Bill Murray from Stripes) It. Is. Alive........


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## goon175 (Aug 20, 2013)

I never get these guys.... If I were to go on this huge rant that I knew would more than likely offend/piss off everyone who read it, and especially if I were going to to tout my educational accomplishments (which I have none) - I would at least open up a Word doc and type it up and use spell check, etc. before posting it to the open board. He says he is an "Old Guy" and that he has all these "accomplishments", but I felt like I was reading a post from one of the high schoolers who comes to this site on occasion. It's just sad, really.


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## Squidward (Aug 20, 2013)

goon175 said:


> I never get these guys.... If I were to go on this huge rant that I knew would more than likely offend/piss off everyone who read it, and especially if I were going to to tout my educational accomplishments (which I have none) - I would at least open up a Word doc and type it up and use spell check, etc. before posting it to the open board. He says he is an "Old Guy" and that he has all these "accomplishments", but I felt like I was reading a post from one of the high schoolers who comes to this site on occasion. It's just sad, really.



Come to figure out after a few years that age sometimes has very little bearing on maturity. What baffles me is how anyone that's never been down-range could call a SOF veteran, tender.


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## x SF med (Aug 20, 2013)

Squidward said:


> Come to figure out after a few years that age sometimes has very little bearing on maturity. What baffles me is how anyone that's never been down-range could call a SOF veteran, tender.


 
But notice, he had to correct me, I SWAG'd 14 months.... it only took 13 for all of those schools...   Maybe I should have looked at ATTRs instead of relying on my failing memory and adding in travel time and forced leave between schools.   My feeling is so hurt, not.


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