# SOF support units? Are they SF qualified ?



## Ravage (Jan 8, 2007)

Maybe a stupid question (or not) but what exactly are the SOF support units? Are they SF qualified ?


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## AWP (Jan 8, 2007)

Ravage said:


> Maybe a stupid question (or not) but what exactly are the SOF support units? Are they SF qualified ?



No. We can take that up in the Intel and Support Ops Forum if you'd like.

EDIT: Sent a PM rather than hijack a memorial thread.


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## Polar Bear (Jan 8, 2007)

Moved, Post away FF


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## AWP (Jan 8, 2007)

No, but yes. Yes but no. Several slots ARE SF qualified slots (18 Series MOS) but these are Det SGT positions (1 I THINK is a maintenance slot for an 18C, but that may be at HHD).

So you can expect to see some senior NCO's with a long tab in a Support Role. The vast majority of the Support soldiers do not have a tab beyond the unit Airborne tab.

the Support slices does just that, support the door kickers. They pack chutes, make commo, analyse intel, maintain vehicles, etc. Currently in the GWOT they are going outside the wire and doing things, but they are not primarily shooters. They worry about the details so the team guys can do their thing without attending to minute details.


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## Totentanz (Jan 8, 2007)

Freefalling said:


> the Support slices does just that, support the door kickers. They pack chutes, make commo, analyse intel, maintain vehicles, etc. Currently in the GWOT they are going outside the wire and doing things, but they are not primarily shooters. They worry about the details so the team guys can do their thing without attending to minute details.



Are the support units for SOF any more selective than their non-SOF counterparts?


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## Marauder06 (Jan 8, 2007)

Totentanz said:


> Are the support units for SOF any more selective than their non-SOF counterparts?



It depends.  For SF units, assignments for support troops are made "needs of the Army," just like for conventional units.  The only difference is assignees must be airborne qualified, or volunteer for airborne training.

Other SOF units have higher standards.


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## Looon (Jan 8, 2007)

The 75th recently added a support aspect to free up line space. That way qualified personel won't be in PAC.

Cooks will be cooks, not Rangers. etc....


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## Marauder06 (Jan 8, 2007)

That's interesting.  So you won't be expected to be Ranger qualified to have a support position in the Regiment?


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## Marauder06 (Jan 8, 2007)

Ravage, keep in mind that "SF" is different that "SOF."  SOF is an all-encompasing term, while SF refers to a specific qualification, and a subset of SOF.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jan 8, 2007)

mara said:


> Ravage, keep in mind that "SF" is different that "SOF." SOF is an all-encompasing term, while SF refers to a specific qualification, and a subset of SOF.


 

Just wanted to add that this is the case for America, it's amazing what units are considered as "SF" in other countries


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## Totentanz (Jan 8, 2007)

Ranger Luna said:


> The 75th recently added a support aspect to free up line space. That way qualified personel won't be in PAC.
> 
> Cooks will be cooks, not Rangers. etc....



So previously, even the cooks in the 75th had to be Ranger-qualified?


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jan 8, 2007)

No, but majority were.  It's pretty hard to get promoted in Regiment unless you have your tab.  Needless to say there were so many tabs in my platoon that promotion was slow as hell.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 8, 2007)

Will everyone still wear the tan beret?


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## Marauder06 (Jan 8, 2007)

I don't get it.  If you have an MTOE of 600, then you can have 600 Ranger-qualified or non-, right? (not counting authorized overages).  Aren't all the positions victor-coded?


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## Looon (Jan 8, 2007)

mara said:


> Will everyone still wear the tan beret?


I hope not. I hope they made it to where the 'Rangers' that graduate RIP or ROP wear it.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jan 8, 2007)

Im pretty sure(but not 100%) that they wear the scroll, but sport a red beret.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 8, 2007)

That's too bad.  One of the things I liked about the Ranger Regiment was that everyone in the unit was a Ranger, no need to separate people by hat.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jan 8, 2007)

not everyone in ranger batt is v qualified, majority are (aside from the pv2/pfc's.) Guys get sent usually when theyre e-2's or 3's and in a perfect world take a fire team when they return (not always though);


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## Looon (Jan 8, 2007)

Boondocksaint375 said:


> not everyone in ranger batt is v qualified, majority are (aside from the pv2/pfc's.) Guys get sent usually when theyre e-2's or 3's and in a perfect world take a fire team when they return (not always though);


Unless you are in weapon's squad. :doh: :doh: :doh:


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jan 8, 2007)

Ranger Luna said:


> Unless you are in weapon's squad. :doh:


 

Im pleased to inform you 2nd platoon has changed


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## Looon (Jan 8, 2007)

Boondocksaint375 said:


> Im pleased to inform you 2nd platoon has changed


When it was my fucking turn, our newb plt Sarn't took it upon himself to tell me no. 

That was a huge reason why I decided to go ahead and leave. There were others, but that did it for me. Im pretty sure he didn't approve of my stunt to get to Panama. That's the only possible reason for me not to go.


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## Totentanz (Jan 8, 2007)

Ranger Luna said:
			
		

> Not 'Ranger quald'. That means having graduated Ranger School.
> 
> All of the support MOS's had to graduate RIP. All of our support personel made the combat jump into Panama in 89. When needed, they were thrown right in with the rest of us.
> 
> ...




Makes sense to me...

Were those ROP/RIP'ed clerks/cooks/etc ever sent to Ranger School?


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## Looon (Jan 8, 2007)

Totentanz said:


> Makes sense to me...
> 
> Were those ROP/RIP'ed clerks/cooks/etc ever sent to Ranger School?


The guys that go through ROP are NCO's that already have their tab. And yes, RIPees get sent to Ranger School after a period of time in Batt. You have to prove yourself worthy of the shot/slot.

I was an M-60 gunner as a PFC in a war zone and after. That is supposed to be a Tabbed E-5 spot.


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## AWP (Jan 9, 2007)

Totentanz said:


> Are the support units for SOF any more selective than their non-SOF counterparts?



Give me a moment and I'll come back to this reply, edit it, and give you a response.

I'm sure this will be lost in the shuffle.....

160th SOAR has Green Platoon. 

Ranger RGT has RIP/ ROP.

SF has nothing.

NSW has nothing that I'm aware of.

Marine folks have nothing that I'm aware of.

AFSOC has nothing for support types, a selection process is/ was around for aircrew on MH-53's but I THINK it went away in the mid-90's.

My Guard unit did an interview, records review, and PT test for our process. Others (and we didn't always do it) had nothing in place to select Support guys. It was purely attrition in our case to weed out the non-hackers.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jan 9, 2007)

How long ago was weapons co. converted to weapons sqd? (before my time)


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## Looon (Jan 9, 2007)

I don't know what you are talking about. In my time we had weapons plt (mortars and 90's etc), but each line plt had a wpns squad with 3 gun teams. Each attachable to a squad.


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jan 9, 2007)

Ranger Luna said:


> I don't know what you are talking about. In my time we had weapons plt (mortars and 90's etc), but each line plt had a wpns squad with 3 gun teams. Each attachable to a squad.


 

alright, youre not as old as I thought


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## Looon (Jan 9, 2007)

Just for shits and giggles, I posted a description of the Rangers support battallion in the 75th room.

http://soforp.com/vb/showthread.php?t=2341


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jan 9, 2007)

I see SFC Sealy in one of those photos, dude is enormous


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## Crusader74 (Jan 9, 2007)

Boondocksaint375 said:


> I see SFC Sealy in one of those photos, dude is enormous



I like the Tan Beret..or did yee prefer the Black one??


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jan 9, 2007)

my opinion is biast, i liked the black one before they handed them out to everyone, but I got used to the tan. A Black beret on your head isnt always pleasant during a ceremony in the middle of a ft benning summer lol. 

Either way, it was just a piece of head gear that we hardly ever wore. I prefered the pc, or no hat at all lol.


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## Totentanz (Jan 10, 2007)

Freefalling said:


> Give me a moment and I'll come back to this reply, edit it, and give you a response.
> 
> I'm sure this will be lost in the shuffle.....
> 
> ...



Thanks for the breakdown, Freefall.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 10, 2007)

Freefalling said:


> Give me a moment and I'll come back to this reply, edit it, and give you a response.
> 
> I'm sure this will be lost in the shuffle.....
> 
> ...




Every SOF unit should have something, even if it's just a records check, a PT test, and a phone call to the losing unit's First Sergeant before the guy signs in.  But they don't.  It ain't that hard to do, it just involves some people getting off their asses to make it happen.  It absolutely boggles my mind that support assignments to SF groups, for example, are "needs of the Army."  That's ridiculous.


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## Looon (Jan 10, 2007)

I remember when I graduated BAC, and a handful of graduates to include some chicks, put on a green beenie.:doh:


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## Marauder06 (Jan 10, 2007)

Yeah, used to be everyone in an SF outfit wore the green beret.  Don't know when that chaged.


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## Crusader74 (Jan 10, 2007)

mara said:


> Yeah, used to be everyone in an SF outfit wore the green beret.  Don't know when that chaged.



Same over here too.


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## AWP (Jan 10, 2007)

mara said:


> Yeah, used to be everyone in an SF outfit wore the green beret.  Don't know when that chaged.




I THINK it was after the 18 series MOS came online.....I want to say the order came down in 90 or 91 that only 18 series guys could wear the green beret.


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## Crusader74 (Jan 10, 2007)

Flat Liners???


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## Marauder06 (Jan 10, 2007)

Eyes said:
			
		

> The Urban Legion I heard [years ago!] about that was that some full-bird Colonel saw a SF Support Soldier that just so happened to be a Pregnant Female [whom was obviously VERY pregnant at the time] in Maternity BDU's and the Green Beanie" and he completely flipped out. And, that was the end of anyone to whom wasn't long tabbed from wearing it...
> 
> At least that's how the legend goes, I don't know if there is any truth to the story...
> 
> I love those guys that would always wear the Gortex back-in-the-day so to hide the fact that they were flat-liners... Especially ones that were privy to the ware of a Beret that would make them appear to be more high-speed than they really were...



I heard that urban legend as well.  I have no idea whether it's true or not.  The whole time I've been in, only SF-qual'd guys wore the green beret.


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## Max Power (Jan 10, 2007)

Irish_Army01 said:


> Flat Liners???



No badges above the name tape (no EIB, CIB, CMB, EFMD, Jump Wings, Air Assault... NOTHING).


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## Crusader74 (Jan 10, 2007)

Cheers Max:)


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## Marauder06 (Jan 10, 2007)

Max Power said:


> No badges above the name tape (no EIB, CIB, CMB, EFMD, Jump Wings, Air Assault... NOTHING).



That's me now.  I don't wear any badges with ACUs.  I think it looks odd and seems like an enormous PITA to put it on and take it off all the time.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 10, 2007)

Eyes said:
			
		

> You know you still wear your Air Assault wings...



I was pretty proud of them when I was a cadet.  My reading of 670-1 is I can wear either air assault or pathfinder with the CAB and jump wings, so the air assault wings stay in the insignia box.

When I first got to Campbell, some of my Soldiers had me convinced that because I didn't earn my wings at Campbell (home of Air Assault), I'd have to do the course again.  I bought it.  :doh:


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## Max Power (Jan 10, 2007)

mara said:


> I was pretty proud of them when I was a cadet.  My reading of 670-1 is I can wear either air assault or pathfinder with the CAB and jump wings, so the air assault wings stay in the insignia box.



I need to go read 670-1 again, last thing I had heard was that you could still wear up to 5 badges (i.e. CIB on top row, then two rows of two).  TIme to go do research


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## Marauder06 (Jan 10, 2007)

Max Power said:


> I need to go read 670-1 again, last thing I had heard was that you could still wear up to 5 badges (i.e. CIB on top row, then two rows of two).  TIme to go do research



I think it's a matter of what category (or whatever) the badges are in.  And for me it's moot for ACUs because I'm not going to wear any badges, but I'm interested in what the new rules are for the dress uniforms.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 10, 2007)

Eyes said:
			
		

> LMAO!!!!!!!!
> 
> Did you wear them above your J-wings  while you were stationed at Campbell, too?!??!?!



Actually, I did have one pair of BDUs with it like that because our commander told us too... it looked odd.


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## Olive Drab (Jan 11, 2007)

badges on bdus/acus are a pain in the ass and annoying.  keep em on the class As.


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## Looon (Jan 11, 2007)

Wearing hardware was really a bitch in Class B's.:doh:


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jan 11, 2007)

I dont recall ever wearing the B's.


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## Looon (Jan 11, 2007)

Boondocksaint375 said:


> I dont recall ever wearing the B's.


I only did once after I left Batt.:doh:


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## Totentanz (Jan 11, 2007)

mara said:


> Every SOF unit should have something, even if it's just a records check, a PT test, and a phone call to the losing unit's First Sergeant before the guy signs in.  But they don't.  It ain't that hard to do, it just involves some people getting off their asses to make it happen.  It absolutely boggles my mind that support assignments to SF groups, for example, are "needs of the Army."  That's ridiculous.



Is there anything that can be done from an officer's standpoint in the way of making sure the guys who are sent to you are squared away?  Or do you just have to work with what you're given?  Can anything be done once they're in?


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## rangerpsych (Jan 11, 2007)

LOL Eyes hit it on the head with a 10lb Maul.

Got to "legland" from batt with 3 visits to the sandbox.... first time I'm out with the platoon... CQM range... We're dry firing before getting to actually throw lead... PSG was ex-2/75, RI, and I had ran into him in florida.. good cat.

PL comes over and starts giving me "pointers" on stance, etc... I raised an eyebrow, then played the game... then looked at the PSG and he just smirked and snickered. 

we get to live rounds... everyone is all over the fucking place... PSG's running the line so he aint on the line, PL's on the line.. his shit looks like a 870 shot group from 25 yds... I have a ragged hole the size of a mandarin orange center mass of the vaporized E-type's heart/lung/central bronchi.

BC/CSM decide to visit our PLT while training... mind you the BC had penis envy from day one when I showed up.

He walks the line, I'm bringing out fresh targets for everyone else because their grouping is straight ASS.  BC grumbles at all the targets except one..."WHOS TARGET IS THIS"  "MINE SIR!" *louder grumbling*

That PL had the brains to not try to do any corrections regarding marksmanship at any range from then on... lol


The NCO's in any unit you go to, will probably have real world experience in the application and utilization of their weapons systems and equipment.  A new officer will not.  Only take direct control of ANYTHING if absolutely necessary, and then at best it should be a nudge in the direction you want.. if you have good NCO's you'll need to hold the reins BACK, not have to push in the right direction.

Just how I see it.


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## Looon (Jan 11, 2007)

Damn good advice. Never think for a moment that because you out rank someone that you know more than they do.:2c:


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## Max Power (Jan 11, 2007)

rangerpsych said:


> The NCO's in any unit you go to, will probably have real world experience in the application and utilization of their weapons systems and equipment.  A new officer will not.  Only take direct control of ANYTHING if absolutely necessary, and then at best it should be a nudge in the direction you want.. if you have good NCO's you'll need to hold the reins BACK, not have to push in the right direction.
> 
> Just how I see it.



That's how I view it as well, and how I plan to work when the time comes.  If I'm walking down the line and see some fucked up shooting at the range, I'm not going to get in the soldier's shit, I'll ask one of the NCOs to come over.  I'm there to supervise the range (and probably be the RSO), not to get touchy feely on shit.

But at the same time, if I have to, I will.  I'm one of those that believes in how the NCO/Officer thing SHOULD work, not how it is actually done quite often in units I've seen.


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## Crusader74 (Jan 11, 2007)

Max Power said:


> That's how I view it as well, and how I plan to work when the time comes.  If I'm walking down the line and see some fucked up shooting at the range, I'm not going to get in the soldier's shit, I'll ask one of the NCOs to come over.  I'm there to supervise the range (and probably be the RSO), not to get touchy feely on shit.
> 
> But at the same time, if I have to, I will.  I'm one of those that believes in how the NCO/Officer thing SHOULD work, not how it is actually done quite often in units I've seen.



cancel my last..


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## Totentanz (Jan 11, 2007)

rangerpsych said:


> The NCO's in any unit you go to, will probably have real world experience in the application and utilization of their weapons systems and equipment.  A new officer will not.  Only take direct control of ANYTHING if absolutely necessary, and then at best it should be a nudge in the direction you want.. if you have good NCO's you'll need to hold the reins BACK, not have to push in the right direction.
> 
> Just how I see it.




Thanks for the adivce, rangerpsych.  I appreciate it. :cool: 

Same to Eyes, Ranger Luna, and Max Power.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 14, 2007)

Totentanz said:


> Is there anything that can be done from an officer's standpoint in the way of making sure the guys who are sent to you are squared away?  Or do you just have to work with what you're given?  Can anything be done once they're in?



In the American Army, individual and crew level collective training is the resposibility of the NCO.  Larger-scale collective training is an officer responsibility.  

In most units in the Army, you have to work with what you're given.  This is specifically true in support assignments to SF units.  Unfortunately, it's very difficult to get rid of people once they're assigned to the unit, unless they do something overtly criminal or have  along pattern of misconduct.  This is not true in all units, but has been the case in most of the ones I've been assigned to (SOF and conventional).

What can officers do?  Just off the top of my head-
Encourage responsible risk-taking by creating an environment in which Soldiers and NCOs have the freedom to make good-faith mistakes without getting slam dunked.  Empower the NCOs to lead and hold them responsible for the success and failures within their specific areas of responsibility.  Handle matters of punishment and reward frequently, expeditiously, and publicly.  Inspect everything that's important.  Eliminate the non-hackers and always be on the lookout for talent.  Be the shield against negative outside influences (sometimes this includes higher headquarters) and be an advocate for your troops.  Be a strategic thinker and let the NCOs handle the day-to-day business.  Enforce discipline.  Be a good example, know when to STFU but more importantly, know when it's time to step up and take charge.

At the end of the day, the officer is responsible for everything that the unit does or fails to do, which is why he can never abdicate "responsibility" in favor of "longevity."

I'll also add, if anyone who worked for me ever told me I was a "little light on the left" to be giving them orders, he might have found himself a "little light on the collar." ;)


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## 104TN (Jan 14, 2007)

mara, they still make the Joes carry that fookin' blue book around? Back in the day if you had AASLT wings you were "required" to wear them...probably because it made fingering alternates for school easier at morning muster.


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## Totentanz (Jan 14, 2007)

mara said:


> *Eliminate the non-hackers *and always be on the lookout for talent.



Could you expand on this, please (specifically, the bolded text)?  A few lines up, you stated that it's difficult to remove a soldier from your unit without a reason (ie misconduct), so I'm a bit lost as to what exactly you mean by this.

Thanks. :)


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## Marauder06 (Jan 14, 2007)

RLK said:


> mara, they still make the Joes carry that fookin' blue book around? Back in the day if you had AASLT wings you were "required" to wear them...probably because it made fingering alternates for school easier at morning muster.



I'm not sure, but I did notice that in their pictures up at Cole Park Commons, neither the Div Cdr nor the CSM were sporting the Bullwinkle badge.  I thought that was pretty odd.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 14, 2007)

Totentanz said:


> Could you expand on this, please (specifically, the bolded text)?  A few lines up, you stated that it's difficult to remove a soldier from your unit without a reason (ie misconduct), so I'm a bit lost as to what exactly you mean by this.
> 
> Thanks. :)



Sure.  

It's very difficult to eliminate Soldiers for say weight control or PT failure.  Bad Soldiers are easier to get rid of when they commit an act that can be handled as a "criminal" case instead of an "administrative" one. But just because it's hard doesn't mean we shouldn't do it, or shouldn't keep trying.  There are other ways to eliminate non-hackers; over the long term the NCOER system works, too.


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## 104TN (Jan 14, 2007)

mara said:


> ...over the long term the NCOER system works, too.



Unless of course promotion to E-5 comes automatically because of shortages. 

Schloesser used to be a boss down Nightstalker Way didn't he?


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## Marauder06 (Jan 15, 2007)

Name sounds familiar, but I don't know him.


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## 104TN (Jan 15, 2007)

Some time in November he became the DIV Commander. Turner's now running Fifth Army from what I understand. 

I think Schloesser was in charge of 1st and 2nd BN before moving on to grander things. I know he was Assistant Division Commander for a minute.

I have nothing against fly-boys but I'm very surprised they put one in charge of a conventional infantry division.


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## Marauder06 (Jan 15, 2007)

Seems to happen quite a bit.  Turns out aviators are pretty smart folks, who knew  Back when I was an LT, there was an aviator in charge of the schoolhouse at Huachuca (MG Thomas).

We still on for tomorrow night?


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## Looon (Jan 15, 2007)

mara said:


> *We still on for tomorrow night*?


Get a room.:doh:


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## Marauder06 (Jan 15, 2007)

Ranger Luna said:


> Get a room.:doh:



lol  :huh?:


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## 104TN (Jan 15, 2007)

Sho' nuff.


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## AWP (Jan 16, 2007)

This thread and the Achille Lauro have some things in common. LOL


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## LibraryLady (Jan 16, 2007)

Eyes said:
			
		

> The Urban Legion I heard [years ago!] about that was that some full-bird Colonel saw a SF Support Soldier that just so happened to be a Pregnant Female [whom was obviously VERY pregnant at the time] in Maternity BDU's and the Green Beanie" and he completely flipped out. And, that was the end of anyone to whom wasn't long tabbed from wearing it...
> 
> At least that's how the legend goes, I don't know if there is any truth to the story...


 
Saw this when I was on Bragg, back in the mid-80's.  Green Beret and Maternity Tents.  Don't know if the Urban Legend is true, but I wouldn't be surprised.  It looked plenty ridiculous, a woman wearing that cover, much less a pregnant one!

Good to hear this no longer happens.

LL


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## ggamecrazy (Apr 1, 2007)

RLK said:


> mara, they still make the Joes carry that fookin' blue book around? Back in the day if you had AASLT wings you were "required" to wear them...probably because it made fingering alternates for school easier at morning muster.





We still have to carry that gay blue book, no one wears any badges anymore, you do sometimes see a couple assholes wear it sometimes.


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## Marauder06 (Apr 6, 2007)

No kidding, when I left it looked like some of the brigades made their guys wear their badges.  I'm glad they've changed the policy.  Everything that's really important you wear on your sleeves anyway.


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