# In the absence of a proper snake bite kit



## rhea (Jun 8, 2007)

Threat:  Water Moccassin and Copper Head.
Question:  Do you elevate the extremity after the poison has been extracted as best you can..

I will ask the 911 operator who can probably help to assess the situation more thoroughly for specific detail before deciding.


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## pardus (Jun 9, 2007)

I'm assuming this is a hypothetical question right?  you shouldn't call 911 unless it's an emergency! if its an emergency, don't ask here!!!

Snake bite SOP IIRC, relax, lie down down, get someone else to get help, tourniquet, kill snake keep for pos identification.

Bend over, kiss ass goodbye 

If you elevate the limb you will force the venom into the heart which is very very bad, particularly if its a neurotoxin, do the opposite.

The idea behind relaxing, lying down is to slow/prevent the venom from reaching the heart.


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## Queen Beach (Jun 9, 2007)

I hope that was hypothetical! :eek:


T you took an hour to reply.  

Someone call Rhea and make sure everything is ok!!!!  :doh::doh:


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## pardus (Jun 9, 2007)

Queen Beach said:


> T you took an hour to reply.



Thats an hour quicker than any other fucker! including the medics and rangers who should be leading the way!


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## Queen Beach (Jun 9, 2007)

pardus762 said:


> Thats an hour quicker than any other fucker! including the medics and rangers who should be leading the way!


 
Why yes..yes it is.  I guess I figured all your time in the bush..you would have stepped up sooner!  LMAO! :huh?:

Seriously...Rhea I hope everything is ok.


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## pardus (Jun 9, 2007)

Hard to reply when you aren't looking and are drinking like a man possessed


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## Looon (Jun 9, 2007)

:doh: The post was origonally worded as a hypothetical question.

*DO NOT* try to suck out the poison.


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## rhea (Jun 9, 2007)

Sorry...it's a hypothetical.  I've never heard not to suck the poison out.  Everything else was in line with what I remember tho...

For the first time in 20 years, I'll be outside without a combat lifesaver/first responder with us, so I was just trying to remember.

I will have my cell phone _with me _ so I would definitely be calling 911 regardless of whether it was myself or someone else.


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## pardus (Jun 9, 2007)

If the person who sucks the poison out has a cut or swallows any, they are about as fucked as the bite victim.


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## rhea (Jun 9, 2007)

pardus762 said:


> If the person who sucks the poison out has a cut or swallows any, they are about as fucked as the bite victim.




I knew you weren't supposed to swallow..o wait...maybe I"m thinking of something else...:doh:

Seriously, maybe it said so on those cards they used to hand out, but I dont remember ever seeing it...


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## Centermass (Jun 9, 2007)

Having handled snakes most of my life and being around them (including cottonmouths) the last thing you want to do is elevate the limb right away. 

Here's why:

Elevating the limb will only accelerate the transfer of the hemotoxic venom between the bite area and the heart if done right away.  

In this instance, wait.  

First apply a constricting band (not a tourniquet) a couple of inches up above and below the bite area, and if possible, disinfect the bite area with an antiseptic 

If you have a kit and are not squeamish, if you know what your doing, make incisions with the blade across the bite area. 

Remember that the venom sacks are located at the top of the snakes mouth. Don't worry about any opposing marks. 

Use the suction bulbs to try and evacuate what you can of the venom. This has to be done quickly to offset as much hemotoxic damage as possible. 

In the absence of a kit, as long as you or another person has no open sores in their mouth, you can suck it out that way. And no, you won't die if you wind up ingesting some of it (myth) 

Get a cold compress on it as soon as possible to help "slow the flow" and keep the swelling reduced.

Check the constricting bands from time to time as the swelling will increase and the will eventually become tourniquets if you don't.  

Also, get any bracelets, rings, watches etc off of the victim immediately (especially if it's a Rolex 
	

	
	
		
		

		
			





) before the swelling takes effect (and it will very rapidly)

Then, keep the affected limb even or slightly elevated, monitor for shock, continue to check for swelling and transport immediately. 

I was there when a buddy of mine (and fellow handler) was bit by "meathooks" an apppropriately named moccasin (because of his size and girth) who wasn't cooled down (refrigerated) long enough prior to handling him. 

After he got him out and applied the hand hold technique, he began to writhe himself loose. 

When the handler began to realize meathooks was seconds away from muscling himself loose, he attempted to drop him back in the box. He then extended himself and made an explosive launch and subsequent bite to his arm. 

Everything I just explained was applied in this incident. This can be applied to almost all venomous snakes, including copperheads, which, unlike moccasins, are not aggressive.  

Now for the irony: He was medevaced to an AF hospital ER. When he got there, the ER personnel mistook the constricting bands for tourniquets, who then loosened and opened them up. 

He flatlined almost immediately and almost lost his life. He was successfully resuscitated, but had a lengthy recovery and suffered large amounts of skin loss and tissue damage.


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## gryfen (Jun 9, 2007)

Centermass, got a question for you:

I've got no problem with snakes, per say....but CottonMouths just freak me out.

Are they generally territorial, or was the one that took after me just being 'aggressive'?


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## rhea (Jun 9, 2007)

Thanks Centermass---that is an excellent post.  I would have never thought of suction bulbs!  I won't be able to do that today.  I can probably get a real snake bit kit before I get a bulb, but that's the only thing I don't have.  The other stuff, I have just because it's serving other purposes. 

Probably the best piece of advise I ever heard is that snakes are generally as afraid of you as your are of them.  Keeping an eye out is generally the best deterence and not cornerning them by mistake.

But, it's been a long ass damn time...I just wanted a refresher.


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## Centermass (Jun 9, 2007)

gryfen said:


> Centermass, got a question for you:
> 
> I've got no problem with snakes, per say....but CottonMouths just freak me out.
> 
> Are they generally territorial, or was the one that took after me just being 'aggressive'?



The damn things are born with attitudes right out of the box. 

Most snakes will turn and hi tail it in the opposite direction unless given no other choice. 

Moccasins on the other hand will not. They will stand their ground, tread their patch  of water and come after you. 

They are very territorial, aggressive and downright mean (dangerous)


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## Centermass (Jun 9, 2007)

rhea said:


> Thanks Centermass---that is an excellent post.  I would have never thought of suction bulbs!  I won't be able to do that today.  I can probably get a real snake bit kit before I get a bulb, but that's the only thing I don't have.  The other stuff, I have just because it's serving other purposes.
> 
> Probably the best piece of advise I ever heard is that snakes are generally as afraid of you as your are of them.  Keeping an eye out is generally the best deterence and not cornerning them by mistake.
> 
> But, it's been a long ass damn time...I just wanted a refresher.



The bulbs on most kits actually house the kit itself inside (they break or separate in half) 

Glad I could help. 

One other thing I forgot to mention,

Whenever we did shows for other members of the service, scouts, etc, we would purposely pre-bite and milk ol meathooks and other venomous snakes before we put them into the cool down mode. 

We did this in the event of what took place as I described were to happen, and the handler was struck, the sacs would have had a majority of the venom evacuated from them, not that anyone wants to get nailed in the first place, but just a proactive measure to reduce an already nasty injury. 

Unfortunately, that did not take place that day and made the bite that more deadly and the recovery time that much more lengthy. 

The Ranger in question was a stud, in absolute peak, physical condition. Had he not been or had it been anyone else, I can honestly say I do not believe they would have survived what he did.


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## rhea (Jun 9, 2007)

Yeah...snake bites are a bitch.  Everyone had great input.  The only thing I couldn't remember for certain was about elevation.  It was good to air out whether or not to try and extract the venom because quite obviously from your post, even emergency personnel don't really know what they are doing all the time.  I guess we should add escort to the hospital w/victim so that ER doesn't remove bindings.

I undertand what your saying about the suction bulbs in the kit, but maybe my SIL has one of those suction bulbs they use on babies...

Suction bulbs are better anyway, if you have to make a cut, there is blood and blood means risk of AIDS or hepatitis transmission.  
Thanks everyone for your input.



Centermass said:


> The bulbs on most kits actually house the kit itself inside (they break or separate in half)
> 
> Glad I could help.
> 
> ...


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## Centermass (Jun 9, 2007)

Just a couple of end notes here (a few I forgot and I'm tired-been a long night) 

AIDS and Hepatitis are definitely factors in those you don't know when it comes to bloodborne pathogens vs treatment of a venomous bite, however, most snakebites occur to someone that is with you, a member of the family or someone you do know. If nothing else is available, just something to think about. 

Have anyone that is bitten lay down. Reduces the amount of exertion the body is already using in response to nervousness of the patient (increased heartrate and breathing due to fear etc) 

Universal medical symbol for a tourniquet recognized by almost all medical professionals is a red "T" on the forehead. They assume most of the public in general is unaware of this. They also assumed that we were unaware as well and reacted as they did. :uhh: 

The examples of bites I used all were outer extremities (limbs) as they are the most common. 

Bites to the torso region, head and neck are not good. Constricting bands are not usable and things will go south a lot quicker if this is case. Suction as much venom as possible, disinfect and still apply the cold compresses and don't waste a minute getting them to treatment.


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## pardus (Jun 9, 2007)

Great posts CM, thanks for your knowledge!


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## rhea (Jun 9, 2007)

One final note...today is a really good example of the detraction that training can bring to a situation.  After so many years in the military, we were conditioned to not think for ourselves.  It's an unintended consequence for sure, but a part of the problem for common troops.  I know this board is for special operations and you guys are trained differently.

My biggest bitch was that they never let me clear a jam on the range, if you never do it then you will not react.

All troops should have to take a shot at giving safety briefings and the like.  If you just wait until someone tells you, then you don't actively identify the problem on your own and you don't get the habit of it.  Used to annoy me to death to wait and see if someone was gonna address a particular safety hazard.  While I'm no high speed anything, I just hate the assumption that we are supposed to wait until we are told what to do.

JMHO


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## pardus (Jun 9, 2007)

rhea said:


> My biggest bitch was that they never let me clear a jam on the range,



That is fucking pathetic!


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## 0699 (Jun 9, 2007)

rhea said:


> My biggest bitch was that they never let me clear a jam on the range, if you never do it then you will not react.
> 
> JMHO



I saw this a couple of weeks ago.  We were shooting on the range (not KD, the EMP/CMP thing) and the Marine to my right kept having FTF malfunctions.  From the very first one, he'd stop dead (no pun intended) and turn to look at the PSO.  After the third or fourth time, I wore into him.  I asked him (amongst all my yelling)...

"Is that corporal going to be walking behind you in combat?"

"No, Top"

"Then WTF are you looking at him when your weapon doesn't work?"

He improved from that point on, but the mentality of "if you have a problem, raise your hand and wait for a coach" that we're taught on the KD range is a very hard habit to break.


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## rangerpsych (Jun 9, 2007)

fuck that noise

I got wacked on the nug with a rock if I had malfunctions and didn't clear them in time to still get expert


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## Crusader74 (Jun 9, 2007)

Excellent thread..I'm lucky that St Paddy kicked all the Snake's sorry ass's outta here!..


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## rhea (Jun 9, 2007)

It was ridiculous how they were so scared of being sued - or getting bad press - they actively interfered with senior NCOs calling SPORTS to us....ALL of us.  NO ONE on a weapon was allowed to clear a jammed weapon except the Range NCOs...

Anyway, it was a good brief.  Water was running high on the river and alot of brush is underwater for the first time in 2 years ---excellent snake breeding ground.  Only bad mistake I made was that I had the wrong shoes and I pretty much knew that.  I didn't have time to get some good ones, but I lucked out.  I was glad to have the info fresh in my mind.

But, someone yelled out another myth I haven't heard in ages.  I heard someone yell out today that snakes can't bite underwater.  I thought that was a myth?

Pictures to follow later.  I had to take a disposable camera.  MIne is not waterproof.  So I gotta get them developed.  Excellent day on the water tho...we had 61 people tubing down the Brazos today!


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## Boondocksaint375 (Jun 9, 2007)

Please try and keep the thread on topic, otherwise start a new thread.


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## medic1 (Sep 23, 2007)

*snakebite*

yea a snake bite is an awsome cocktail, but aside from that current medical practice for snakebite injury is:
• make sure snake has fucked off!
• relax casualty
• DO NOT wash bite area [so we can swab the bite and find out what antivenom to use].
• NO NOT use tourniquet, unless you know what you are doing an/ or a long way off from medical care. Touniquets can promote blood flow to the site if not on correctly!
• Apply a pressure bandage, from toes to groin/ fingers to armpit
• splint the limb
• If you have the kit, get a large bore IV up, use Saline or Ringers.

there you go, no sucking......no cutting and no tourniquet:doh:


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## Brooklynben (Sep 24, 2007)

Over the years I've watched the suggested treatments come and go.  From what little I know, the latest suggested general protocols follow exactly what Medic1 has written above.

However there are a couple of new and *completely unsubstantiated* treatments that are floating around.  Number 1 is that if any venom is going to be extracted, one has to do it within the first three minutes.  The faster one gets to the bite and applies suction, the better the results.  But supposedly after three minutes, trying to effectively extract any venom is pretty much a waste of time.  

Second, either way it's good to try to restrict blood flow to the sight by placing an elastic band (Ranger bands are great for this) or elastic bandage directly over the bite site itself.  This constriction on the bite site itself is suggested to be made over any clothing (pants/shirts) that may normally cover the wound area.

Lastly, a really odd 'trick' has worked for a few people who have used stun guns (or other electrical resources) to shock the bite area once or twice.  This got started down in Central America where people found they could neutralize the effects of bee stings this way.  Supposedly, this method has worked for 40 or 50 people so far, but it hasn't for others and is completely unproven.     

However while I generally don't travel around with a stun gun, if I found I had access to one after being bitten, I think I'd have someone pop me on the bite site and again somewhere a couple of inches above the bite between the heart and the wound.  Hey, if nothing else, it might take my mind off the burning sensation of the bite  :eek:


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## ROS (Sep 24, 2007)

9 years ago this 03Oct I was bitten on the foot by a rattlesnake, timber variety, 1 each. Having been raised in the country and being used to the bastards, one knows that remaining calm is of utmost imprtance. 

Offending reptile was pinned to the ground, headfirst, with a standard spade, foot was iced, Pop was called, transport to ER ensued. Antivenin was NOT given at any time of my hospital stay. Depending of severity and location of the bite, medical officials make the decision whether or not to administer the potion. 

1 week in the hospital, a semester of lost college hours later, my left foot still hurts when really cold out and is but slightly larger than its counterpart- all this without antivenin.


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## elle (Sep 24, 2007)

ROS said:


> 9 years ago this 03Oct I was bitten on the foot by a rattlesnake, timber variety, 1 each. Having been raised in the country and being used to the bastards, one knows that remaining calm is of utmost imprtance.
> 
> Offending reptile was pinned to the ground, headfirst, with a standard spade, foot was iced, Pop was called, transport to ER ensued. Antivenin was NOT given at any time of my hospital stay. Depending of severity and location of the bite, medical officials make the decision whether or not to administer the potion.
> 
> 1 week in the hospital, a semester of lost college hours later, my left foot still hurts when really cold out and is but slightly larger than its counterpart- all this without antivenin.



Calm?  Calm?   Not a chance.:bleh::eek:

How did they get the poison out or did it just work through your system?


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## pardus (Sep 24, 2007)

I was told in Africa if you get bitten, take a seat in the shade & get someone else to go for help (if possible).


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## ROS (Sep 24, 2007)

elle said:


> Calm?  Calm?   Not a chance.:bleh::eek:
> 
> How did they get the poison out or did it just work through your system?



Psht, like the poisons ever left, Cube? 

IV's, antibiotics, and lots of pain meds, in addition to the venom just working its way through my system. 

I was feverish and swollen for the first 4 days, but my foot remained ex-treme-ly swollen for about 3 months. 

And calm is my forte. >:{


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## rangerpsych (Sep 24, 2007)

if you get bit in africa... lie down so you can die comfortably


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## pardus (Sep 24, 2007)

Honestly, there isn't too much over there than can fuck you, Black Mamba was the one we feared, 20 min until your heart stops, I had one in the facility I worked, the hospital was 20 min away and the nearest anti-venom was about 24 hours away, hope like hell the iron lung was working and free that day! lol

Aussie is a different story, that place is a fucking nightmare of things that'll fuck you up bad!

Out of the top 10 most poisonous snakes in the world, Aussie has 8 of the 10 including the Number 1, the Brown snake.


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## ROS (Sep 24, 2007)

I was never afraid of snakes before I got bit, and they didn't bother me. Now, I'm still not afraid, but I do prefer them dead and in pieces- and ensure that they are both, with more emphasis on the latter.


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