# Back to basics for the Army....



## Devildoc (Jun 6, 2016)

Is this real?  Has the Army fallen _that_ far behind?  Admittedly I have been out for a few years but I dug my fair share of holes on both coasts of the US and places beyond the shores....

Back to basics (and foxholes) for today’s Army


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## DocIllinois (Jun 6, 2016)

Its real, alright.  

I can vouch that the Infantry is, at least, still training in austere conditions.  Our company hits the field on FTX after one admin day and normally doesn't emerge until recovery.

(Though even then, I had to reinstate fox hole digging and rest plan guard duty in my platoon after lots of grumbling and "the other platoons aren't doing it" comments.  Cruel to be kind and all that. )


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## Marine0311 (Jun 6, 2016)

DocIllinois said:


> Its real, alright.
> 
> I can vouch that the Infantry is, at least, still training in austere conditions.  Our company hits the field on FTX after one admin day and normally doesn't emerge until recovery.
> 
> (Though even then, I had to reinstate fox hole digging and rest plan guard duty in my platoon after lots of grumbling and "the other platoons aren't doing it" comments.  Cruel to be kind and all that. )



The beatings will continue until morale improves.


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## Gunz (Jun 6, 2016)

Why put the poor fobbits through all this misery?


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## Marine0311 (Jun 6, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Why put the poor fobbits through all this misery?



Don't get me started.


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## Gunz (Jun 6, 2016)

I mean...a couple of days in the boonies? In a nice big tent with actual tables to eat on? And they have to dig a hole and eat bland food? And this makes them ready for what? The next power outage?


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## DocIllinois (Jun 6, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Why put the poor fobbits through all this misery?



Because I'll need them to not bitch and freak out if they're ever assigned to me to conduct business in conditions like this:


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## Gunz (Jun 6, 2016)

I pray to the Warrior God that they are never assigned to that chore. Because a couple of weeks without electronic devices will not make them the skilled killers you will need in conditions like that.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 6, 2016)

In the business world, anytime you hear "back to the basics" it is code for, "People have stopped caring about my claimed efforts, and if I don't show some actual results soon, I'm out of a job. "

Usually trickled down from the exec in the hot seat, who everyone know will not go out alone and plays his new game in hope of keeping their own job. 

LOL - the longer I am out, the more I realize the military is just another IBM and most senior folks are just trying to stay in the game long enough to ride out retirement.


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## Marine0311 (Jun 6, 2016)

DocIllinois said:


> Because I'll need them to not bitch and freak out if they're ever assigned to me to conduct business in conditions like this:
> 
> View attachment 15636
> 
> View attachment 15637



Beat them harder.

Both my Grandfathers went through Army boot for WW2. The shit they did for training was just brutal.


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## DA SWO (Jun 6, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> Is this real?  Has the Army fallen _that_ far behind?  Admittedly I have been out for a few years but I dug my fair share of holes on both coasts of the US and places beyond the shores....
> 
> Back to basics (and foxholes) for today’s Army


When's the last time guys/gals had to dig foxholes?  
OIF1? 2 maybe. 
10 plus years of deploying, getting ready to deploy have cost us a lot of capability.


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## Beagle (Jun 7, 2016)

SSG Chris Brown? 

Digging fox holes, must be fun


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## SpongeBob*24 (Jun 7, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> When's the last time guys/gals had to dig foxholes?
> OIF1? 2 maybe.
> 10 plus years of deploying, getting ready to deploy have cost us a lot of capability.



I just hope the BASICS have been tweaked off of AAR's and lessons learned, driving the next decade of training and not falling back into the shenanigans of the 90's....:blkeye:


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## BeauRing3336 (Jun 7, 2016)

Whatever the Army decides to do that is harder then it is now I personally will take anything. I feel the Army has grown soft and need to be revamped. If they don't change the basic requirements then they need to send everyone to infantry school. Shooting for 4 days doesn't do anything but let you learn the weapon. I would be happy if they had all branches go back through the USMC boot you will help down size and people might have a little more respect for branch and work ethic.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 7, 2016)

BeauRing3336 said:


> I would be happy if they had all branches go back through the USMC boot you will help down size and people might have a little more respect for branch and work ethic.



I don't understand the Marine Corps tie in.  What is it you are trying to say?


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## BeauRing3336 (Jun 7, 2016)

That I like the way they train their basic recruits. I just wish everyone had to go through it. I have nothing but respect and only wish I could have done it myself.


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## Gunz (Jun 7, 2016)

My Senior D.I. wanted to punch the shit out of the platoon non-hack. So he lined us up in front of our racks at attention and said: "I'm gonna gut-punch every one of you motherfuckers...and you can all report me. Because they'll never believe that your D.I beat up the whole platoon." And he proceeded to go down each side of the squadbay and gave each of us a gut-punch. But when he got to the platoon non-hack, he put something extra into it.

The non-hack got the message and started getting his shit together. And morale improved because we had to do less punitive PT because of him.




Marine0311 said:


> The beatings will continue until morale improves.



Amen, Reverend.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 7, 2016)

I've been in the Army more than 21 years, including four years in the Infantry, and the only time I've ever done foxholes and fighting positions outside of a school environment, it was for punishment.  I'm not saying the task isn't worth learning, but there are SO MANY other, more useful skills to be practicing in the very limited field training time we have these days.


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## AWP (Jun 7, 2016)

The Army's lost a lot of capabilities/ corporate knowledge. Fighting positions were common task "back in the day." You don't need to be infantry to know their value for defend/ die in place and defense in depth. The Iraqi's used artillery with great effect (Haditha Dam and others I've forgotten) and I think First Recon BN described digging "Ranger graves" during their halts. "Anyone can dig a hole, Free" is a valid argument, but those of use who served during the 90's: would you rather road march out, dig a fighting position, fill it in, and then road march back or PMCS your busted and rusted vehicles for the third or fourth time that month?

Sure, the Army can do more and has many other tasks to accomplish, but it can be far worse.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 7, 2016)

Maintaining vehicles is a better use of time IMO.  Lot more utility in mobility than in static defense in the wars we're currently fighting.


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## AWP (Jun 7, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Maintaining vehicles is a better use of time IMO.  Lot more utility in mobility than in static defense in the wars we're currently fighting.



I won't disagree with this for a second except to say when you see the same discrepancies over and over because parts aren't forthcoming the concept of PMCS becomes a bitter and ironic joke. When you reach that point you need to move on until the vehicle situation can be fixed.


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## Devildoc (Jun 7, 2016)

There are a lot of things that seem to be anachronisms in the military, fighting holes seemingly among them.  But I think the tone of the article suggests that the Army support positions specifically can't see the forest for the trees, can't do basic soldiering.  I think there needs to be a balance between the MOS-specific tasks and the foundations of soldiering.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 7, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> Maintaining vehicles is a better use of time IMO.  Lot more utility in mobility than in static defense in the wars we're currently fighting.



I pretty well agree with both of your posts. I do however feel that we are not going to keep fighting the same style warfare. And with forces being drawn down the way they are, CSS/SS need to be ready to man the line (for lack of better words).

A couple times a year digging fox holes and sleeping in the dirt doesn't hurt anyone. I mean after all, it is the Army.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 7, 2016)

We've been fighting this way for 15 years and there is little to indicate it will change in the near future.  It's a lot easier to train someone up quickly on how to dig a fighting position than it is to get them schooled up in their language, how to make comms, or how to keep their vehicles and equipment operational.


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## Etype (Jun 7, 2016)

BeauRing3336 said:


> Whatever the Army decides to do that is harder then it is now I personally will take anything. I feel the Army has grown soft and need to be revamped. If they don't change the basic requirements then they need to send everyone to infantry school. Shooting for 4 days doesn't do anything but let you learn the weapon. I would be happy if they had all branches go back through the USMC boot you will help down size and people might have a little more respect for branch and work ethic.


The Army has grown soft? That's why The Army has various selections and schools for you to attend. You have to prove that you're not "soft" before you're allowed to do anything else.

You seem to be a bit of Marine fanboy, why didn't you join the Marines? It seems pretty cheap that you have so much criticism for the Army, yet you claim to have joined it- TWICE.


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## Marine0311 (Jun 7, 2016)

BeauRing3336 said:


> Whatever the Army decides to do that is harder then it is now I personally will take anything. I feel the Army has grown soft and need to be revamped. If they don't change the basic requirements then they need to send everyone to infantry school. Shooting for 4 days doesn't do anything but let you learn the weapon. I would be happy if they had all branches go back through the USMC boot you will help down size and people might have a little more respect for branch and work ethic.



If anything it should be harder. I don't want to hear such talk from anyone today. Get over it. My Grandfathers both were in Army basic to prep for World War 2 with training that would break recruits today.


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## BeauRing3336 (Jun 7, 2016)

Etype said:


> The Army has grown soft? That's why The Army has various selections and schools for you to attend. You have to prove that you're not "soft" before you're allowed to do anything else.
> 
> You seem to be a bit of Marine fanboy, why didn't you join the Marines? It seems pretty cheap that you have so much criticism for the Army, yet you claim to have joined it- TWICE.



Mr. Etype please don't misunderstand me. The Army is a good branch. I have heard of and seen the Army BCT standards drop so more people can achieve this goal. I am only referring to BCT. Yes there are a lot of school you can attend which is great because you have to show you wanna go. You are correct on all counts. From when I did BCT in 2006 we actually had to give out recruit brothers IVs now they don't do that, You cant yell at people anymore, you cant point and people, you cant drop them for more then 10 reps, its a bunch of little links in the chocker collar that make the military to seem less intimidating. They don't call you warriors anymore and WLC is now BLC. Basic was about brainwashing you needed to believe you were a killer and can accomplish any mission. The Army turned into a business. You make the most out what you put in. And yes I wanted the USMC at first and bitched out I'm not happy about it but I didn't have a ton of options when I tried to come in a 2nd time with my discharge and RE code but I made the best of it and I'm still trying to fight for the things I want.


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## Etype (Jun 8, 2016)

So you wanted to be in the Marines, but you were scarred? Yet you call BCT soft?

Before WLC was WLC, it was BNCOC. I'm glad they changed the name, WLC sounds cheesy and cliche.

BCT is just what it needs to be. You are a mechanic, not a warrior.

ETA-
The whole, 'everyone is a warrior,' theme is like giving every kid a trophy and everyone being a winner.


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## Gunz (Jun 8, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> I've been in the Army more than 21 years, including four years in the Infantry, and the only time I've ever done foxholes and fighting positions outside of a school environment, it was for punishment.  I'm not saying the task isn't worth learning, but there are SO MANY other, more useful skills to be practicing in the very limited field training time we have these days.




I never dug fighting positions in the bush because we wanted mobility in a firefight. We never dug-in in ambush sites because digging makes noise.

As you say, digging was punitive. Fuck up and you dig a 6'x6'x6'. And fill it in again when you're done.

The "book" has instructions on digging a fighting pit, complete with grenade sump. I can see where it might've been useful in the World Wars and Korea, when you might've had to face a charging horde...but how many charging hordes have we faced? Our enemies learned long ago that massed charges against automatic weapons is wasteful and unproductive.

I think one of the most important things to learn, aside from squad organic weapons, is comm. Whenever we had a replacement join us, he automatically got one of the PRC25s and a crash course of instruction and humped it until he learned how to call in everything.

Comm is the lifeline, especially for a small unit. If you're the last man standing you have to know it. So teach the Fobbits practical applications, the "camping trip" stuff they can learn along the way.


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## compforce (Jun 8, 2016)

I agree that fighting positions are passe for the current conflict against an enemy that is fighting us with guerilla style tactics. 

That said, it's a classic mistake to train for the last war rather than the next one.  Our next conflict against a world power is going to feature a lot of hunter/seeker type drones.  What's the best way not to get killed by a drone (for the Ground Pounder)?  Overhead cover with camo and anti-thermal imaging properties...    i.e. a classic foxhole, without beaten zones, or underground bunker.


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## Gunz (Jun 8, 2016)

compforce said:


> I agree that fighting positions are passe for the current conflict against an enemy that is fighting us with guerilla style tactics.
> 
> That said, it's a classic mistake to train for the last war rather than the next one.  Our next conflict against a world power is going to feature a lot of hunter/seeker type drones.  What's the best way not to get killed by a drone (for the Ground Pounder)?  Overhead cover with camo and anti-thermal imaging properties...    i.e. a classic foxhole, without beaten zones, or underground bunker.




Good points and I agree. But learning to dig a by-the-book foxhole is not rocket science. It's something you can learn in a 1-hour class with a day of supervised practice. Learning weapons, communications and how to keep things working IMO should take precedence when teaching Fobbits who may someday find themselves in a fight.


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## compforce (Jun 8, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Good points and I agree. But learning to dig a by-the-book foxhole is not rocket science. It's something you can learn in a 1-hour class with a day of supervised practice. Learning weapons, communications and how to keep things working IMO should take precedence when teaching Fobbits who may someday find themselves in a fight.



You would think so...  OTOH, I have seen NCO's in the Infantry during the 90's that had a decade of experience and still couldn't dig a foxhole properly.


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## CDG (Jun 8, 2016)

compforce said:


> You would think so...  OTOH, I have seen NCO's in the Infantry during the 90's that had a decade of experience and still couldn't dig a foxhole properly.



Couldn't, or were too lazy?  We dug hasty FPs and defensive FPs in the TACP pipeline, and it wasn't complicated.  You just had to be willing to put in the work to do it properly.  It was used more as a physical training tool than anything though.  "Dig a hasty here."  Dig the hasty and call the cadre over for inspection. "No, this spot 20m to the right looks better.  Fill that one in and dig one over here."


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## compforce (Jun 8, 2016)

CDG said:


> Couldn't, or were too lazy?  We dug hasty FPs and defensive FPs in the TACP pipeline, and it wasn't complicated.  You just had to be willing to put in the work to do it properly.  It was used more as a physical training tool than anything though.  "Dig a hasty here."  Dig the hasty and call the cadre over for inspection. "No, this spot 20m to the right looks better.  Fill that one in and dig one over here."



Hasty is just a shallow grave.  A proper fighting position is shoulder deep, enough room for two people to stand in the ports or both duck under the cover.
 


It has some type of wood roof, on top of which are sandbags which are in turn covered with camoflage.  The sides are closed in and there is an escape to the rear for each person and a firing port to the front with stakes that delineate the fields of fire for that person.  Once that is built, it is improved constantly.



That's what we used to build when we went to the field... Every time.  We didn't always use the big logs though.  Usually we were told to just use whatever branches we could find and stretch a poncho with them then toss some dirt on top.  The couple of times we did it for real, we used logs provided by the combat engineers and filled sandbags as the layer directly on top of the waterproofing.


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## Gunz (Jun 8, 2016)

That's the book version I mentioned above. It usually means you've given up dynamic maneuver  and tactical mobility, you expect the enemy to zero in on you, and you're preparing to sit in your hole and take whatever shit he lobs at you.

I don't know about OIF/OEF, but the only fixed positions and bunkers I saw in VN were at permanent compounds or firebases and had been constructed by engineer units or Seabees.


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## compforce (Jun 8, 2016)

Desert Storm was where we did the real ones.  Digging grenade sumps in sand is a bitch.


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## DocIllinois (Jun 8, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Good points and I agree. But learning to dig a by-the-book foxhole is not rocket science. It's something you can learn in a 1-hour class with a day of supervised practice. Learning weapons, communications and how to keep things working IMO should take precedence when teaching Fobbits who may someday find themselves in a fight.



We dug in positions and Ranger graves around the perimeter of Tuzla when the place was still going up in '96.

Before then, we hadn't trained much on this task back in Germany because we weren't expecting to have to do it for realz. 

Yet there we were, picking and slinging for days.  Funny old world.


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## Marine0311 (Jun 8, 2016)

I dug one or two in 2003


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 8, 2016)

Etype said:


> So you wanted to be in the Marines, but you were scarred? Yet you call BCT soft?
> 
> Before WLC was WLC, it was BNCOC. I'm glad they changed the name, WLC sounds cheesy and cliche.
> 
> ...



WLC used to be PLDC back when I did it, BNCOC phase one was before you pinned E6, and phase two was within 2 years of pinning E6. ANCOC was supposed to be before E7.

PLDC
BNCOC 1&2
ANCOC 1&2
1SG Course
SGM Academy 

At least during my time in. The whole warrior gayness, is exactly how you put it. That all said, I think even our support people should be able to build a fighting position and defend it. As I said before, it is the Army...


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## Etype (Jun 8, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> That's the book version I mentioned above. It usually means you've given up dynamic maneuver  and tactical mobility, you expect the enemy to zero in on you, and you're preparing to sit in your hole and take whatever shit he lobs at you.
> 
> I don't know about OIF/OEF, but the only fixed positions and bunkers I saw in VN were at permanent compounds or firebases and had been constructed by engineer units or Seabees.


I never saw one in Iraq or Afghanistan. We made all of our permanent positions above the grade line.

I agree 300% about giving up the initiative by digging in. Fire and maneuver has defeated fixed positions since Napoleon swept across Europe.


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## Etype (Jun 8, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> WLC used to be PLDC back when I did it, BNCOC phase one was before you pinned E6, and phase two was within 2 years of pinning E6. ANCOC was supposed to be before E7.
> 
> PLDC
> BNCOC 1&2
> ...


Thanks for the assist. My PLDC and BNCOC were the same course, I didn't get the full experience.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 8, 2016)

Etype said:


> Thanks for the assist. My PLDC and BNCOC were the same course, I didn't get the full experience.



I remember the first time I found out that the Q course counted as BNCOC, thinking to myself "that's pretty awesome they don't have to deal with that gayness" because that is exactly what it was...gay as hell.


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## Etype (Jun 8, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I remember the first time I found out that the Q course counted as BNCOC, thinking to myself "that's pretty awesome they don't have to deal with that gayness" because that is exactly what it was...gay as hell.


There is an NCOPD course that we have to do at Camp Mackall, not sure what it's called now. It's accredited by USASMA and it covers both courses.

We do all the mandatory classes, and a lot of PT. It's a bit of a smokefest, but I thought it was a lot of fun. The instructors do all of the PT with you, you get plenty of sleep, 3 hot meals a day, and there are fun competitive events between the different squads.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 8, 2016)

Etype said:


> There is an NCOPD course that we have to do at Camp Mackall, not sure what it's called now. It's accredited by USASMA and it covers both courses.
> 
> We do all the mandatory classes, and a lot of PT. It's a bit of a smokefest, but I thought it was a lot of fun. The instructors do all of the PT with you, you get plenty of sleep, 3 hot meals a day, and there are fun competitive events between the different squads.



PLDC & BNCOC 1, was all dress right dress, Army gayness, everything regulation, alot of this is how you prep a class, counsel a soldier, look pretty, blah, blah, blah. PT was geared towards the average support guy passing, and the D&C just sucked. I didn't have any fun at all. Basically learning all the stuff I already knew while being treated like a PVT again.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Jun 8, 2016)

Etype when did you go thru the Q-Course?

Diamondback where did you go to PLDC at?


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## CDG (Jun 9, 2016)

compforce said:


> Hasty is just a shallow grave.  A proper fighting position is shoulder deep, enough room for two people to stand in the ports or both duck under the cover.



Tracking brother.  Our instructors referred to the first graphic you posted as a "Defensive Fighting Position".  We didn't mess with installing wood, or other overhead cover.  We dug it to the specs you mentioned, but didn't add anything else.


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## Gunz (Jun 9, 2016)

"Not a nasty, dirty, wet hole, filled with the ends of worms and an oozy smell, nor yet a dry, bare, sandy hole with nothing in it to sit down on or to eat. It was a hobbit-hole, and that means comfort..."


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## Devildoc (Jun 9, 2016)

compforce said:


> Desert Storm was where we did the real ones.  Digging grenade sumps in sand is a bitch.



Yes it is.  It's like digging a hole at the beach for your kids that just keeps filling itself in.


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## Bypass (Jun 9, 2016)

WTF am I going to do with a foxhole? Qualify at BRM or bury myself in it. What idiot can't dig a hole if needed? Show me a picture one time and I have it down. I am glad I don't have to deal with this silliness anymore. I never even thought once of digging a hole while deployed except for the dog I buried because he was my buddy.

Edit: The dog died first and I am going to go play world of warcraft now.


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## Gunz (Jun 9, 2016)

Threads devolve. It's science.


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## DocIllinois (Jun 9, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Threads devolve. It's science.



I'll retrack it:  Training to live with housing units, Pizza Huts, WiFi, and rent-a-guards and calling yourself a soldier = no.

Training to live on (in) the land and out of a ruck, eating what you have or what's on a field resupply, forgetting about the boy who just Left Swiped you on Tinder, and protecting your own force = yes.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 9, 2016)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Etype when did you go thru the Q-Course?
> 
> Diamondback where did you go to PLDC at?


FT Hoodlum.


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## pardus (Jun 9, 2016)

Bypass said:


> WTF am I going to do with a foxhole? Qualify at BRM or bury myself in it. What idiot can't dig a hole if needed? Show me a picture one time and I have it down. I am glad I don't have to deal with this silliness anymore. I never even thought once of digging a hole while deployed except for the dog I buried because he was my buddy.
> 
> Edit: The dog died first and I am going to go play world of warcraft now.



Maybe one day if you are deployed to a major war zone where your enemy is a professional you will understand the relevance of a prepared defensive position.


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## Etype (Jun 9, 2016)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> Etype when did you go thru the Q-Course?
> 
> Diamondback where did you go to PLDC at?


2008


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## Etype (Jun 9, 2016)

pardus said:


> Maybe one day if you are deployed to a major war zone where your enemy is a professional you will understand the relevance of a prepared defensive position.


Nah, we would just keep moving forward. Nothing stops the American Winning Machine.


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## DocIllinois (Jun 9, 2016)

Etype said:


> Nah, we would just keep moving forward. Nothing stops the American Winning Machine.



I think NASCAR groupies would show you their boobs.   Yee haw.


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## Bypass (Jun 10, 2016)

pardus said:


> Maybe one day if you are deployed to a major war zone where your enemy is a professional you will understand the relevance of a prepared defensive position.


When is the last time we fought a professional soldier? Not going to happen though my third time re-enlisting 14 years ago will be my last.

Edit" Maybe I will pick up a gun if we are invaded but I still doubt I will dig a foxhole.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 10, 2016)

....


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## policemedic (Jun 10, 2016)

Bypass said:


> Edit" Maybe I will pick up a gun if we are invaded but I still doubt I will dig a foxhole.



Maybe? OK.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 10, 2016)

policemedic said:


> Maybe? OK.


He won't. 

You know why.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jun 10, 2016)

No offense, but the support people mentioned in the article seem not that good. The disconnect and between some of the support classes and Infantry looks like it hasn't changed much. This is just my experience, but I remember that we used to think that our support company and personnel were garbage. We pretty much expected that they weren't going to do too much for us, and that expectation was proven right one to many times. Maybe things have changed, but what do I know?

As for digging fighting positions and their feasibility it's kind of a mixed bag. I know that we fortified the crap out of our JSS with sandbags. We even created covered bunkers/fighting points on the rooftop.Got to the point that when the engineers showed up, they told us to not build anything else on the rooftop. The bunkers worked, one guys position took a direct hit with an RPG and he walked out with his bell rung but in perfect shape. Fighting positions have their place, although I am skeptical that support will be expected to build or man these positions.


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## BeauRing3336 (Jun 10, 2016)

Bypass said:


> WTF am I going to do with a foxhole? Qualify at BRM or bury myself in it. What idiot can't dig a hole if needed? Show me a picture one time and I have it down. I am glad I don't have to deal with this silliness anymore. I never even thought once of digging a hole while deployed except for the dog I buried because he was my buddy.
> 
> Edit: The dog died first and I am going to go play world of warcraft now.


maybe they think its ganna build character?


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## Marine0311 (Jun 10, 2016)

BeauRing3336 said:


> maybe they think its ganna build character?



What the heck are you talking about?


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## BeauRing3336 (Jun 10, 2016)

digging foxholes Marine0311. Military do things like when you are fresh in. I agree with Bypass that people DO know how to dig holes.


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## Gunz (Jun 10, 2016)

The Marines put everybody through a month of infantry training, regardless of MOS, before they go off to their speciality school. And everybody of course gets the same excellent marksmanship training in bootcamp. This doesn't make our support personnel Marine infantry by any means, but it gives them a good solid understanding of the basics...so if they do find themselves in the shit they aren't useless. "Every Marine a rifleman."

I'm not suggesting the Army adopt it, it may be too cost prohibitive for a very large branch, but it's been proven to be worth the time and expense for the Corps.


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## Bypass (Jun 10, 2016)

policemedic said:


> Maybe? OK.


With comments like this MAYBE I will just let you light infantry "police"medics get your asses shot off first. I'll fight when it gets to my neighborhood. I don't really care about the rest of the world anymore. It's just my patch of dirt from here on out.


Diamondback 2/2 said:


> He won't.
> 
> You know why.


 Now everybody does. ;)


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## R.Caerbannog (Jun 10, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> The Marines put everybody through a month of infantry training, regardless of MOS, before they go off to their speciality school. And everybody of course gets the same excellent marksmanship training in bootcamp. This doesn't make our support personnel Marine infantry by any means, but it gives them a good solid understanding of the basics...so if they do find themselves in the shit they aren't useless. "Every Marine a rifleman."
> 
> I'm not suggesting the Army adopt it, it may be too cost prohibitive for a very large branch, but it's been proven to be worth the time and expense for the Corps.



To be honest I wonder how much of these deficiencies boil down toward the mentality of combat arms vs support, and if additional range time would improve it.


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## DA SWO (Jun 10, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> The Marines put everybody through a month of infantry training, regardless of MOS, before they go off to their speciality school. And everybody of course gets the same excellent marksmanship training in bootcamp. This doesn't make our support personnel Marine infantry by any means, but it gives them a good solid understanding of the basics...so if they do find themselves in the shit they aren't useless. "Every Marine a rifleman."
> 
> I'm not suggesting the Army adopt it, it may be too cost prohibitive for a very large branch, but it's been proven to be worth the time and expense for the Corps.


Disagree slightly, weapons skills are perishable and an annual two week FTX does not make you infantry.
I've worked with Marine Aviation units and they all laughed the 2-week FTX off as a waste of time.


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## x SF med (Jun 10, 2016)

Etype said:


> Thanks for the assist. My PLDC and BNCOC were the same course, I didn't get the full experience.



Back when I went through the Q, it counted as BNCOC, so you got the NCOPD-2 ribbon.   I was an "SF Baby"  and an E-4 when I graduated.  After getting to Devens, and getting on the Board list, along with 15 other guys in the same boat, we all got shipped to Dix to go through PLDC in the same class and Company...  it was, um, interesting.... the first question was "Why are all of you wearing the NCOPD with 2?"   Somehow :wall::wall::wall::-" we all graduated in the top 15% of the class, my only low mark was D&C, because I suck at marching.  From what I understand they never put all more than 5 SF guys in the same Company after that little experiment, LMAO.  The TACs had us teaching classes, running PT (with the admonition we could not run at the pace we wanted, and to not go over 50 reps of an exercise at a time), and gave us the weakest people in field skills- especially Land Nav... then bet on us for making sure the weak people passed and learned the skills.


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## AWP (Jun 10, 2016)

x SF med said:


> The TACs had us teaching classes, running PT (with the admonition we could not run at the pace we wanted, and to not go over 50 reps of an exercise at a time), and gave us the weakest people in field skills- especially Land Nav... then bet on us for making sure the weak people passed and learned the skills.



I went through the Guard's PLDC in '95. Right or wrong I was lumped into the 11 series/ 13F/ frontline medic group. If it was field related we were paired with a CSS soldier who, no offense ladies, was usually female; it made land nav fun. Our only reprieve was in a leadership role or mandatory individual tasks. The more things change, the more they stay the same.


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## x SF med (Jun 10, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> I went through the Guard's PLDC in '95. Right or wrong I was lumped into the 11 series/ 13F/ frontline medic group. If it was field related we were paired with a CSS soldier who, no offense ladies, was usually female; it made land nav fun. Our only reprieve was in a leadership role or mandatory individual tasks. The more things change, the more they stay the same.



My land nav "partner" was overweight, female and had not been to the field since IET...  she kept up, I think it was the promise that I would strap an A-7-A to her and drag her and her ruck through the woods if she was unwilling to learn and move out for the graded portions.


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## AWP (Jun 10, 2016)

x SF med said:


> My land nav "partner" was overweight, female and had not been to the field since IET...  she kept up, I think it was the promise that I would strap an A-7-A to her and drag her and her ruck through the woods if she was unwilling to learn and move out for the graded portions.



My favorite was the 100 pound admin clerk from the Virgin Islands. She was legitimately freaked out by night land nav and barely held it together (and barely passed) during the day. I was trying to prep for our trip to the woods and calm her down when a storm hit and they cancelled the event. The color returned to her face when they announced we wouldn't go that night. I can still see her face. She took every ounce of patience in my body and I even contemplated roping us together with 550 cord. She was panicking. I've seen guys refuse to jump who weren't that scared.


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## Gunz (Jun 12, 2016)

DA SWO said:


> Disagree slightly, weapons skills are perishable and an annual two week FTX does not make you infantry.
> I've worked with Marine Aviation units and they all laughed the 2-week FTX off as a waste of time.




Wingers...


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## AWP (Jun 12, 2016)

I wonder if the Corps' air wing community changed anything after the Kandahar attack?


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