# The Democratization of the Army Uniform



## EverSoLost (Feb 12, 2009)

> By Maj. J. Scot Davis
> Civilians may think it’s a little juvenile to worry about ribbons, but a civilian has a house and a bankroll to show for what he’s done for the past four years.
> —Bill Mauldin
> 
> ...



Great article I thought.  Very insightful and now I feel even prouder to pin my "cherries" every morning.  I know lots of folks here share in the opinion that it's irrelevant, but me I'm pretty proud.


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## AssadUSMC (Feb 12, 2009)

Must be an Army thing... ;)


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## EverSoLost (Feb 12, 2009)

Probably just a rear echelon Army thing ;)
< Pogue 

Most of the "Cool" guy triggers seem indifferent to it.  They have the Tabs and they sport those.


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## AssadUSMC (Feb 12, 2009)

Anyone who wears the uniform deserves respect.  Everyone is a volunteer...  Semper Fi.


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## Trip_Wire (Feb 12, 2009)

EverSoLost:

Yes! It is an Army thing!

I share the major's opinion on the metal pin on badges, currently in use. Yes, bring back the subdued cloth sew on badges!

I earned my CIB in Korea in 1951 and I'm still proud to wear it along with other skill badges I have earned over the years.

I also used to wear my chosen set of sew on foreign parachute wings on my 107's on the right side above the pocket. They should allow that as well.

We are criticized by foreign Armies, especially in the UK for all the badges we wear, as well as the number of ribbons and medals worn on our class A's. To them I say STFU, your just jealous! :)

I also notice Marines wearing regular gold and silver badges on their ASU. So, maybe it isn't just an Army thing. ;)

Also, for those who don't like the badges and/or the wearing of them, etc. My advice to you don't wear them turn them back in. 

All my career I wore every badge I earned or was allowed to wear on my fatigue and/or dress uniform and was proud to do so. The CIB & Master Blaster are my proudest.

In the National Guard or Reserve Forces, especially in the past, (Before regular Combat deployments.)  experienced Officers and NCOs wearing their badges on their fatigues, etc. would give a recruit or fellow soldier, some idea of ones expertise and qualifications to lead as well as confidence in their individual abilities. To some extent this applies to regular forces as well.

Example: An NCO wearing a Ranger tab as your Sqd. leader would give me more confidence in his/her leadership ability. So would a Ranger scroll as a combat patch. :2c:


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## EverSoLost (Feb 12, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> Anyone who wears the uniform deserves respect.  Everyone is a volunteer...  Semper Fi.


Just a little self depricating humor man.  I'm proud of what I do, and what I hope to do.  I get to directly effect the health, welfare, and especially the morale of the soldiers in my care.  Lots of people say it's their job.  But it's actually my job to make sure they get what they deserve, or dont for that matter.  Great Gig!  CDR's, 1SG, PS, SL types dont always have time or put enough emphasis on that stuff so I have the opportunity to make sure it's done and done on time. :)

The only down side to this is when I showed up at the Ball this past weekend I knew most of the Officers and SNCO's but very few in my own paygrade.



Trip_Wire said:


> EverSoLost:
> 
> Yes! It is an Army thing!
> 
> ...


Hopefully they'll return to the sew on.  At least it's my wife's hope she's tired of setting up a set of ACU's every morning.  I would much rather run them to the cleaners and have them starched and pressed.  

Great Post btw!


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## surgicalcric (Feb 12, 2009)

When I was at Bragg I would see soldiers (mostly from the Eighty-Deuce but a couple guys from Group) wearing every thing they could pin on their chests (save foreign wings) and never really got it...  I really dont understand the need for wearing pin-on/sew-on skill (scare) badges on the ACU's or BDU's for that matter.  I also didnt, and still dont, understand the issue about Branch insignia for O's on the ACU.   

I do wish they would go back to sew-on name and Army tapes and unit patches/tabs.


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## EverSoLost (Feb 12, 2009)

surgicalcric said:


> When I was at Bragg I would see soldiers (mostly from the Eighty-Deuce but a couple guys from Group) wearing every thing they could pin on their chests (save foreign wings) and never really got it...  I really dont understand the need for wearing pin-on/sew-on skill (scare) badges on the ACU's or BDU's for that matter.  I also didnt, and still dont, understand the issue about Branch insignia for O's on the ACU.
> 
> I do wish they would go back to sew-on name and Army tapes and unit patches/tabs.



I would venture to say it's not "need" it's desire.  I desire to pin my "Cherry" wings, it very well may be the only remotely "cool" thing I do, and no I will probably never jump again.  But I'm still proud of them and desire to wear them in garrison.  It absolutely gains me no "credibility".   But I still desire to wear them.  I'm still proud.

I initially joined in 1998 while I dont remember a whole lot of combat patches during my short initial tour, I do remember folks being defined by the badges they had earned.  I know that time is long gone now, most are combat tried and proven.  But I have seen many combat veterans who are proud to wear their badges as well.  Besides it's kind of cool when a real Paratroop greets me with an effectionate "dirt dart", or hey Airborne.  Was it a tough school?  Not at all.  Especially not in comparison to guys like you.  But I imagine folks with EIB's, MFF wings, Jump Master, etc. etc. etc. put alot of personal time and effort into earning their badges and feel just as proud as I do of my one.

But me I'm just as proud of my wings as I am of my Uniform.

I imagine the Commissioned especially Infantry Officers may feel the same about their branch insignia, as I did about my Infantry Cord and Disks.  Proud.

Kind of like how a Corporal is just as proud of his two chevrons as a Captain is of his railroad tracks.

I obviously cant speak for everyone who wears their badges only myself.  But there you go that's why I wear them.  Because I'm proud to have earned them.  I try to work hard and diligently at everything I do, so of course I take pride in the things I do or attempt.  

Just my :2c:


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## HOLLiS (Feb 12, 2009)

Problem when I was in, the pay was not much.  $90.mo with a $20 -30/mo dry cleaning bill in garrison,  we did what ever to save $$.   Same with ribbons.   In Oki,  I would just wear a VCG, it represented other awards.  I prefer that over any other today.  Most folks don't know what it is. 


I saw a Lt Col, he only wore one ribbon,  it was powder blue with some stars.  


Class A's we had to wear them all.   On Utilities, just rank.   In the Bush in Viet-Nam, not many people wore rank.   We all knew who was who.  

I think the Army CIB is one of greatest looking awards.   I have a CAR, That CIB, is really nice, IMHO.  

Today my greatest award is being a dad.


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## surgicalcric (Feb 12, 2009)

EverSoLost said:


> I would venture to say it's not "need" it's desire.  I desire to pin my "Cherry" wings, it very well may be the only remotely "cool" thing I do, and no I will probably never jump again.  But I'm still proud of them and desire to wear them in garrison.  It absolutely gains me no "credibility".   But I still desire to wear them.  I'm still proud...



When I graduated Airborne my fathers wings (dating back to '44) were pinned to my chest by a very dear friend of mine.  That was one of the proudest days of my life, not because I thought BAC was difficult, because I had the opportunity to wear the same wings my father wore.  I understand being proud I just dont wear it on my chest.  Since then I have picked up a few more badges for the left side of my chest; they adorn my Greens and Blues.  

While on the subject, one of the most interesting things I have ever seen was 101st soldiers wearing their Air Assault Badge above their Jump wings.  

I find no fault in others showing off what they have done, its just not for me I suppose.  Hell in fact I wear my PC more than I wear my beret now...


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## usmc0369 (Feb 12, 2009)

"I saw a Lt Col, he only wore one ribbon,  it was powder blue with some stars."  



Wesley Fox?


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## Trip_Wire (Feb 12, 2009)

surgicalcric said:


> When I was at Bragg I would see soldiers (mostly from the Eighty-Deuce but a couple guys from Group) wearing every thing they could pin on their chests (save foreign wings) and never really got it...  I really dont understand the need for wearing pin-on/sew-on skill (scare) badges on the ACU's or BDU's for that matter.  I also didnt, and still dont, understand the issue about Branch insignia for O's on the ACU.
> 
> I do wish they would go back to sew-on name and Army tapes and unit patches/tabs.



Most people in the Groups that I knew, when we were wearing 107s wore their sew on badges on them to include foreign wings, usually Vietnamese wings in the 60's and early 70's. I don't think it was required; however, it could have been in some units. Most SF soldiers who wore them, were proud of their awards, especially their CIB and Master wings.

As an individual, you of course are entitled to your POV on wearing badges on ACUs or BDUs. You may not see a need, but many others do and have many reasons to wear them. There are many things, that I as an individual don't see the need for in the military; however, I wouldn't try to force my POV on others.

Of course, if one doesn't see the need for skill badges to be worn they could not wear them, unless required by regulation, or turn them back in and have them removed them from their service record. That way they couldn't force one to wear them.

I'll give you this though, there is no real practical need for any skill badges, tabs, patches, name tags or branch insignia on any ACU/BDU. They do not make the uniform work better, wear better and/or make them warmer or cooler, etc. It's mostly a matter of pride I guess, some have no pride in their uniform and what they look like in it I guess.

Also, unlike in the past ACUs are worn off post every where, to include travel. I seldom see a soldier now days in Class A's. IMO ACUs look like crap off post in CONUS and travel. They would even look worse without the Badges, Tabs and other stuff we're talking about here.

There is also the things I mentioned about in my post about confidence building, etc. To me, that is a good reason to wear them.

Officers are proud of their branch and I can see why they would want to keep their branch insignia on their ACU/BDUs. Look how long it took to get the SF branch crossed arrows. I think most officers are proud of their chosen branch it is their career field. IMO, officers should still be able to wear their branch insignia. :2c:

BTW: I am not a big fan of ACUs or most Camo BDUs in the field or anywhere else.


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## Trip_Wire (Feb 12, 2009)

usmc0369 said:


> "I saw a Lt Col, he only wore one ribbon,  it was powder blue with some stars."
> 
> 
> 
> ...



On his ACU/BDU or fatigues?


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## HOLLiS (Feb 12, 2009)

Trip_Wire said:


> On his ACU/BDU or fatigues?



I did not know the officer's name,  He was wearing Class C,  Short sleeve dress uniform.  This was in Oki in 1970. 

AFAIK or can remember, Marines keep their Utilities simple.


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## Trip_Wire (Feb 12, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> I did not know the officer's name,  He was wearing Class C,  Short sleeve dress uniform.  This was in Oki in 1970.
> 
> AFAIK or can remember, Marines keep their Utilities simple.



I was just kidding you, the discussion here was about wearing stuff on ACUs. I have noticed Marines wearing Army jump wings, Navy jump wings and SCUBA badges on their ACUs lately.


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## 0699 (Feb 12, 2009)

surgicalcric said:


> When I graduated Airborne my fathers wings (dating back to '44) were pinned to my chest by a very dear friend of mine.



Off-topic, but that's f'ing awesome right there.

When I was on AD (), sometimes I wore my AC wings, other times I didn't.  No rhyme or reason...


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## surgicalcric (Feb 12, 2009)

Trip_Wire said:


> ...As an individual, you of course are entitled to your POV on wearing badges on ACUs or BDUs. You may not see a need, but many others do and have many reasons to wear them. There are many things, that I as an individual don't see the need for in the military; however, I wouldn't try to force my POV on others.



Not trying to force anything on anyone here, just stating my opinion about the matter at hand.  I am not going to tell anyone they cant wear or shouldnt wear their badges.  I simply said *I* dont see the need to wear my 201 file on my chest...



> Of course, if one doesn't see the need for skill badges to be worn they could not wear them, unless required by regulation, or turn them back in and have them removed them from their service record. That way they couldn't force one to wear them.
> 
> I'll give you this though, there is no real practical need for any skill badges, tabs, patches, name tags or branch insignia on any ACU/BDU. They do not make the uniform work better, warmer or cooler, etc. It's mostly a matter of pride I guess, some have no pride in their uniform and what they look like in it I guess.



There are more of us around Group, today, who wear no scare badges at all on our ACU's than those who do, or so has been my experience.  It isnt really a matter of pride or lack thereof IMHO; my ACU's and boots are always clean and presentable, as they should be, when in the rear.  Its the pride I have in my uniform and my appearance that drives me to look professional.


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## Trip_Wire (Feb 12, 2009)

Your choice surgicalcric! Do what you want to do and can get away with in your unit.

I'm rather surprised that an Airborne unit allows people assigned to it in garrison, to not wear their wings on there chest. Perhaps the ACU uniform regulations causes some of this lack of desire, because people are to lazy to keep pining the stuff on.

I hadn't seen the post about your Fathers wings, etc. This made your views a little clearer to me, although I don't agree with your POV.

If I was the SGM of your BN you would be wearing ay least your wings on your ACUs and your GB in Garrison. ;)

Quote:



> "When I graduated Airborne my fathers wings (dating back to '44) were pinned to my chest by a very dear friend of mine. That was one of the proudest days of my life, not because I thought BAC was difficult, because I had the opportunity to wear the same wings my father wore. I understand being proud I just dont wear it on my chest. Since then I have picked up a few more badges for the left side of my chest; they adorn my Greens and Blues.
> 
> While on the subject, one of the most interesting things I have ever seen was 101st soldiers wearing their Air Assault Badge above their Jump wings.
> 
> I find no fault in others showing off what they have done, its just not for me I suppose. Hell in fact I wear my PC more than I wear my beret now..."


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## HOLLiS (Feb 13, 2009)

Trip_Wire said:


> I was just kidding you, the discussion here was about wearing stuff on ACUs. I have noticed Marines wearing Army jump wings, Navy jump wings and SCUBA badges on their ACUs lately.



I have a friend, retired SgtMajor,  He was at Pineville and jumped with names you would probably know.  The services seem to be moving together in many ways.   There is a lot of cross training.  I think that is probably a good idea in the long run, especially for SNCOs. 

I had the KISS system drilled into me.   It makes sense when they is say, "The army with the simplest uniforms wins."


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## Trip_Wire (Feb 13, 2009)

HOLLiS:

I guess that I'm just a FOG that is set in his ways.

The ACU uniform in many ways is not set up to wear badges & stuff like previous Army battle dress uniforms. It is also my understanding, that many soldiers think the currant ACU is a worthless POS. I have never worn one, so I have no personal experience with it.

It may be just the area live in; however, I seldom see a Marine in a ACU running around the streets or in airports when I travel. They are usually in civilian clothes or in the Marine dress uniforms (Green & Tan or Blues.)

On the other hand, I see many Army and a few Air Force people all over the place in ACUs. I never see any sailors (Navy or USCG) in anything other than dress uniforms, except when working on a base or ship. Why is that?

In both my active duty and Reserve time, wearing fatigues, BDUs, etc. off post was forbidden. (Except to and from a drill location.) In fact civilian clothes were forbidden wear for us to began with at the start of my career and through the Korean War.

Most Airborne soldiers I knew, to include SF would never be caught not wearing their wings and the same with those that had earned the CIB. At one time most 'Troopers' worn their metal wings on there PC or the old Castro hat. Sometimes with their backing oval behind them.

The CIB was a full color sew on. Soon the Wings were also sew on silver ones worn under the CIB if you had both on the left breast. I don't recall any Airborne soldier not wanting to wear his wings on any uniform he wore. Most airborne commanders, to include SF, would take a dim view of any paratrooper who didn't want to wear his wings on any uniform he was wearing. He might even find himself transfered to a leg unit for his attitude and lack of *AIRBORNE esprit de corps*.

As I have said before, I left active duty sometime ago, way before ACUs. IMO, soldiers should not be allowed to wear ACUs, or fatigue type uniforms for travel in CONUS or off post, except to and from their place of residence.

IMO, the wearing of all authorized earned badges, tabs and/or decorations on Class A uniforms should be mandatory for both EM and Officers. Skill badges on ACUs should be optional but strongly encouraged by command. 

Hollis how can you say "I had the KISS system drilled into me. It makes sense when they is say, "The army with the simplest uniforms wins." when you Guys wear that Dress Blue uniform? ;)


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## digrar (Feb 13, 2009)

I had a name tag sewn on over my left breast pocket and a rising sun biscuit on my left shoulder, my beret had a Royal Australian Regiment badge on it and my slouch hat had a Royal Australian Regiment badge and a rising sun badge on it. That's all anyone needed to see to know who I was and where I was from.


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## HOLLiS (Feb 13, 2009)

Trip_Wire said:


> Hollis how can you say "I had the KISS system drilled into me. It makes sense when they is say, "The army with the simplest uniforms wins." when you Guys wear that Dress Blue uniform? ;)



LOL,  Dress Blues are a babe magnet.  The Corps knows what a young Marine needs.  Sadly, we were not issued them when I was in.   

I understand the FOG issue, sometimes I think I have more in common with those who fought at Valley Forge than those serving today.  


In RVN, we had nothing on our cammis to designate anything.   Our Utilities could have a iron on Marine Corps emblem on the breast pocket.   Our Covers had Eagle, globe and anchor embossed (correct word?) on it.   As I mention rank, if it was worn was worn on the cover.  Sometime in the inside of the cover.  Everyone in the Company knew who everyone was.   Bush Marines are not to be confused with garrison Marines. 

On utilities in the states, rank was worn on the collar tab.  I think for the Corps it is a much smaller organization than the Army.   I don't remember anyone every challenging Gunny on his qualification.  I had a Gunny who as a grunt in Korea, he had a number of confirms with his e-tool.  I don't know if the Marines today have the same natural respect for Gunnys that we had.  In RVN some of the SNCOs where in Korean and in WWII.  For us, young Marines, we were in awe of them.  It is a Old Corps respect thing. 

Thanks for the information.  

H.


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## 0699 (Feb 13, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> On utilities in the states, rank was worn on the collar tab.  I think for the Corps it is a much smaller organization than the Army.   I don't remember anyone every challenging Gunny on his qualification.  I had a Gunny who as a grunt in Korea, he had a number of confirms with his e-tool.  *I don't know if the Marines today have the same natural respect for Gunnys that we had*.  In RVN some of the SNCOs where in Korean and in WWII.  For us, young Marines, we were in awe of them.  It is a Old Corps respect thing.
> 
> Thanks for the information.
> 
> H.



Yes they do.  The two best ranks in the Corps are corporal & gunnery sergeant.


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## car (Feb 13, 2009)

Couple of thoughts --

I like the ACU (although many here don't like it), mainly because it's easy to wear and I don't have to spend a lot of money maintining it or sewing a bunch of shit onto it.

Driving through Sierra Vista the other day, one of my battalion commanders wondered out loud "I wonder how much business all these laundries and sew shops lost when the ACU came out?" Response was, "Well, if joe still wants pay to have them washed......" The conversation morphed into shoe shines and boot blacks........and George at XVIII Airborne Corps HQ- who remembers him?

I'm ambivilous (sp?) about pin-on v. sew-on. If it's pin-on, I'll never wear pin-on scare badges. 1) don't have to impress anyone anymore,  2) as a young paratrooper, we still had pin-on but it was a safety hazard, so you had to take it off for jumps - just an ingrained thing), 3) I have no problem with sew-on skill badges for the ACU - but we all know the cost. Even at Bragg, where that kind of thing is cheap, it would cost several dollars per uniform to sew everything on.:2c:

Thoughtful article.

Edit -- My Brigade XO in Germany was married to a Brit. He (the Brit) referred to ACUs as "your pajamas," but said that he liked them.


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## AssadUSMC (Feb 13, 2009)

0699 said:


> Yes they do.  The two best ranks in the Corps are corporal & gunnery sergeant.



Amen, brother.  One of my biggest regrets was getting out before I could make gunny...


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## 0699 (Feb 13, 2009)

AssadUSMC said:


> Amen, brother.  One of my biggest regrets was getting out before I could make gunny...



You missed out, but I'm sure you had your fun at corporal... 

Man, did I wear some people out when I was a corporal...


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## Ranger Psych (Feb 14, 2009)

I wore all earned awards according to 670-1 when I was in Regiment... combat scroll, CIB or EIB (depending on which uniform out of the pile I had, S&S had CIB's) and Jump wings.

Once I transitioned to the ACU, I made the personal decision that if you couldn't figure out shit by seeing a combat scroll on my shoulder, then I didnt' give a fuck. I didn't even have a CIB, EIB, or Jump wings in the black metal because I was out training in body armor as much as possible with my joes so they'd get used to the weight and how it affected their performance and capabilities. 

I was one of the few guys I knew in Bat that wore their Class A's more often than just for Ranger ball. I would go home every winter in them because I had the option to, I was proud of where I was, What I had done, and it was a point of pride for my parents as well... I spent a half day the last time I went home in A's explaining everything to my mother and father... and seeing my father proud of my accomplishments considering how adamant he had been about me NOT serving, was a wonderful thing.

Then again, many a course class and skill I had been at,  trained, or performed didn't have a badge, placard, ribbon or even a certificate...


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## Trip_Wire (Feb 14, 2009)

Ranger Psych said:


> I wore all earned awards according to 670-1 when I was in Regiment... combat scroll, CIB or EIB (depending on which uniform out of the pile I had, S&S had CIB's) and Jump wings.
> 
> Once I transitioned to the ACU, I made the personal decision that if you couldn't figure out shit by seeing a combat scroll on my shoulder, then I didnt' give a fuck. I didn't even have a CIB, EIB, or Jump wings in the black metal because I was out training in body armor as much as possible with my joes so they'd get used to the weight and how it affected their performance and capabilities.
> 
> ...




Hooah! Ranger Good post!


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## car (Feb 14, 2009)

Ranger Psych said:


> I wore all earned awards according to 670-1 when I was in Regiment... combat scroll, CIB or EIB (depending on which uniform out of the pile I had, S&S had CIB's) and Jump wings.
> 
> Once I transitioned to the ACU, I made the personal decision that if you couldn't figure out shit by seeing a combat scroll on my shoulder, then I didnt' give a fuck. I didn't even have a CIB, EIB, or Jump wings in the black metal because I was out training in body armor as much as possible with my joes so they'd get used to the weight and how it affected their performance and capabilities.
> 
> ...



Last time I wore my A's was at my grandmother's memorial service in May '07. I wear everything on my A's - that's what they're for :) - but I did the same thing, spent a lot of time (at the "after party") " 'splaing" each ribbon, badge, patch and device. Finally got tired of it and changed into jeans and a Hawaiian shirt.


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## pardus (Feb 14, 2009)

Trip_Wire said:


> We are criticized by foreign Armies, especially in the UK for all the badges we wear, as well as the number of ribbons and medals worn on our class A's. To them I say STFU, your just jealous! :)



It's a cultural thing, 'we' (commonwealth) tend to be a tad more reserved than you guys. ;)

I had a mate in the NZ Army who was on an exchange in the USA, he was attending the CSM's course here.
He said everyone was laughing at one medal the Americans were wearing, the one everyone got for serving when 9/11 happend, that _everyone_ included the CSMs on the course :)



digrar said:


> I had a name tag sewn on over my left breast pocket and a rising sun biscuit on my left shoulder, my beret had a Royal Australian Regiment badge on it and my slouch hat had a Royal Australian Regiment badge and a rising sun badge on it. That's all anyone needed to see to know who I was and where I was from.



In garrison I had a badge on my beret and my rank on my arm, in the bush I had nothing at all.
To me cammies are working dress, like c/overalls, if you want to wear badges etc... put on a dress uniform. :2c:



car said:


> Finally got tired of it and changed into jeans and a Hawaiian shirt.



Nice!


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## Marauder06 (Feb 14, 2009)

I don't care one way or the other, I'm just as happy to not have anything but my name, rank, and service branch on the front.  IMO, all the things that really matter you wear on your sleeves anyway (tabs and SSI-FWS).


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## AWP (Feb 15, 2009)

In a few units the CIB is a cheap award anyway. Often, you can't even tell what unit a soldier served in combat with as I've seen many a Guard and Reserve soldier with a 101st patch. Having the SF patch isn't a big deal anymore either on the support side.

Honestly, there aren't many awards/ badges/ tabs that I put much stock in it without knowing the individual and circumstances. Our award policies are broken and it has cheapened the results.


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## Ajax (Feb 16, 2009)

surgicalcric said:


> ...  Hell in fact I wear my PC more than I wear my beret now...



No you don't.  You're a ballcap wear'n m'fer and you know it.:)

My personal take on this:  badges are cool, but they've got a place and that place garrison.  Just the opposite of where velcro should be.  I think the Army, in the interest of being elite or thrifty, not sure which, got that one wrong.  I'm not convinced that pin-on badges are saving anybody anything.  Dammits fall off, badges need to be replaced.  The arguement is not always wanting your 201 on your uniform.  Well, that's why there are (or were) field uniforms and garrison uniforms.  Remember back when SOF guys were berated for wearing a top with modified pockets and some velcro?  That was a field uniform.  And now everyone has one, in garrison.  

I keep one uniform all pinned-up and pretty for impressing people who are impressed by that kind of thing, and need to be impressed.  The rest of the time, I'm impressing them with my "quiet professionalism".


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## surgicalcric (Feb 16, 2009)

Ajax said:


> No you don't.  You're a ballcap wear'n m'fer and you know it.:)...



You are right!  I do wear a ballcap when I can get away with it...  ;)


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## Equalizer (Mar 12, 2009)

For me it's the beret and jump boots, don't get me wrong I love the scare badges and I would wear everyone of them everyday, but the maroon, tan and green berets and jump boots in dress that links us to our proud past. I view the badges for what they are, a school, but the berets and jump boots are who we are and what we do. Much like the Rangers motto with the scroll and tab, the badges are a school, but the beret and  jump boots are a way of life.:2c:

P.S. My ninja uniform seriously kick some ass :confused:


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 13, 2009)

The Army combat uniform as a whole is a massive fail IMO. Everything from color, Velcro, sippers, and the stupid draw strings in the cargo pockets. I thought the idea behind the ACU was to build the ultimate field uniform, however it has no real field practicality.

When I started in the Army I was in a scout plt, we had BDU’s that were for field wear and then we had our starch and shines for inspection (garrison). Our field BDU’s had all the buttons from the top removed, besides the bottom pockets. The top pockets where sewed shut along with the flap closing the front of the top. All the extra material was removed from the entire uniform, extra little flab between the pocket flap, extra buttons and those stupid metal pieces that went on the sides of the waist. We would spend hours at the Korean ladies shop having things cut off and sewed shut. 

I even had some small netting sewed in the armpits to allow for airflow. :)

We did not have badges on our field uniform however we did have the unit patch. Our boots were green jungles that had the toe and heel cup removed and were resoled in either ripple or aqua tred. We would take twigs and leave put them on our boots and then paint over them with browns and greens. Thus helping us conceal our selves better in different environments.

That was the best damn field uniform I had ever had! The boots were the best road marching, running and anything in the field I ever had! A far cry from the crap we wear now…

As for badges and tabs, they do need to be worn in garrison. It tells people who you are and where you have been. It’s a respect and pride thing that should always be kept IMO…


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## car (Mar 13, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> The Army combat uniform as a whole is a massive fail IMO. Everything from color, Velcro, sippers, and the stupid draw strings in the cargo pockets. I thought the idea behind the ACU was to build the ultimate field uniform, however it has no real field practicality.
> 
> When I started in the Army I was in a scout plt, we had BDU’s that were for field wear and then we had our starch and shines for inspection (garrison). Our field BDU’s had all the buttons from the top removed, besides the bottom pockets. The top pockets where sewed shut along with the flap closing the front of the top. All the extra material was removed from the entire uniform, extra little flab between the pocket flap, extra buttons and those stupid metal pieces that went on the sides of the waist. We would spend hours at the Korean ladies shop having things cut off and sewed shut.
> 
> ...



Who paid for all that? That's really the only question. 'Cause if joe was paying for it and the command was accepting it as SOP, then the command was wrong - and should have paid for it. It's real easy for a command to see it's Soldiers doing things outside the paradigm, and "looking the other way," but when it becomes a norm, the the commander has to step up and talk to his/her next higher commander about changing said paradigm.

The old 1SG in me has goose bumps - for two reasons. Ya don't get to alter the uniform, goddammit! That shit was personality driven from your commander - and was wrong.

The other side of the coin is that you guys figured how to adapt the shit you were handed and made it work - and were right.

How's that for ambivalence? 

I think y'all were right, but your boss didn't do his job.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 13, 2009)

car said:


> I think y'all were right, but your boss didn't do his job.



I could not agree more SGM and we would have never been caught dead in the rear like that. It was for field use only ;)

As for the cost, hell yeah that shit cost! I remember my boots alone were like $175 when it all said and done, the best damn $175 I ever spent too! :)

But absolutely, the cost was high and it would have been nice to have the unit pay for it. But getting a National Guard unit to pay for new gear, is like trying to get a blow job from Hillary Clinton! :eek: (at least that’s what we all figured, why else would Bill have got one from Monica?)


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## Trip_Wire (Mar 13, 2009)

Equalizer said:


> For me it's the beret and jump boots, don't get me wrong I love the scare badges and I would wear everyone of them everyday, but the maroon, tan and green berets and jump boots in dress that links us to our proud past. I view the badges for what they are, a school, but the berets and jump boots are who we are and what we do. Much like the Rangers motto with the scroll and tab, the badges are a school, but the beret and  jump boots are a way of life.:2c:
> 
> P.S. My ninja uniform seriously kick some ass :confused:



As for the beret, you're right on the Green & Tan; however, in the case of the maroon beret it's my understanding that even non-qualified (no para wings) or 'legs' assigned to an airborne unit wear them.

IMO: When I see a soldier wearing a CIB/CMB and Master Parachutist badges, he gains more respect from me right off the get-go. If they have second award stars on their CIB/CMB even more respect, from me.

IMO, the top Army badges are:

1.) CIB/CMB (Not a school)

2.) Master Parachutist wings/Master HALO Wings

3.) Combat Diver badge (Or the New Special Ops. Diver badge)

4.) Pathfinder badge

5.) Combat Action Badge (Not a school, I do have some doubts about this one.)


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 13, 2009)

Trip_Wire said:


> As for the beret, you're right on the Green & Tan; however, in the case of the maroon beret it's my understanding that even non-qualified (no para wings) or 'legs' assigned to an airborne unit wear them.
> 
> IMO: When I see a soldier wearing a CIB/CMB and Master Parachutist badges, he gains more respect from me right off the get-go. If they have second award stars on their CIB/CMB even more respect, from me.
> 
> ...



I agree 100% When someone has BTDT you respect them alot more then someone that has not. 

Close Combat Badge? Did you mean Combat Action Badge or CAB? 

(CAB <~~Crying Ass Baby Award)


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## Trip_Wire (Mar 13, 2009)

Yes, J. A. B. I was! Thanks it's been corrected ;)


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## Wolf_1_1 (Jun 27, 2009)

I got my CIB, and I'm proud to wear it.  That being said, I'm not going to walk into the room with my left pocket leading the way.

The ones that I give serious BTDT cred to though, are the CMB guys.  It takes guts to run into the firefight with an aid bag and not your rifle.  I saw them in action when my team leader took one in the leg.  He was laying over him while we were laying down fire.  My hats off to that man.

As to the ACU, I never got to put one on, but I think pin on badges are a bad idea.  Doubly so when you put body armor into the mix.


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## Viper1 (Jun 28, 2009)

surgicalcric said:


> When I was at Bragg I would see soldiers (mostly from the Eighty-Deuce but a couple guys from Group) wearing every thing they could pin on their chests (save foreign wings) and never really got it...  I really dont understand the need for wearing pin-on/sew-on skill (scare) badges on the ACU's or BDU's for that matter.  I also didnt, and still dont, understand the issue about Branch insignia for O's on the ACU.
> 
> I do wish they would go back to sew-on name and Army tapes and unit patches/tabs.



Ditto your feelings about the sew-ons....

Don't really care one way or the other on the branch insignia for O's... although my dad still wears his engineer castles on his Akubra hat.  I still keep a set of crossed rifles on my bag and was proud when I got those.  Pride within a branch I guess.

For the other badges, I just always wore them, never gave it thought.  Until the day my neighbors young kids sat on my lap and asked me what they meant.  They're not old enough to understand the CIB or ABN wings, but they caught their attention long enough to ask me about them.  I left a set with them.  I remember being that age and wanted to have a CIB like my Dad..... My opinion is it's not so much so other guys can see my badges, you just never know what little kid is looking up to you thinking in his head "I want to be like him" (and of course, that also comes from the way they see you carry yourself, act, talk, etc :))

Thanks. My 2:2c:


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## Marauder06 (Jun 28, 2009)

I've said it before (maybe in this thread) but as far as I'm concerned the only things that really matter are the things you wear on your sleeves.  I'm quite happy not to wear my scare badges.  If we're going to add anything else to the uniform, it should be subdued combat stripes worn over the right wrist.  In the absence of that, I'm quite content to wear my unit patch, combat patch, rank, nametape and US Army (would wear my tabs- but that's right I haven't earned any ;) )


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## Trip_Wire (Jun 28, 2009)

Marauder06:

You are entitled to wear what you wish, as long as your unit commander, etc. doesn't prescribe what will be worn on which uniform and when. ;)

If I was still on active duty, I would always wear my two tabs and at the very least my Master Para wings and CIB. :2c:


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## Viper1 (Jun 28, 2009)

When the head of the USMA english dept retired in spring 2001 after nearly 40 years of AD service, he wore his A's, with unit and combat patch, Ranger tab, crossed rifles, Master Parachutist Wings and CIB.  No ribbons.  One last hurrah for the old school.


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## EverSoLost (Jun 30, 2009)

k......In two years I've bought badges twice....This is two badges per 4 sets of uniforms simply because of tarnishing, chipping, etc. I dont like "re-blacking" because it never maintains IMO.  approximately 60 bucks after shipping.    

I remember my wife sewing them on being much cheaper.  So I'm not seeing the cost savings.

But I dont live in a good relative proximity from a Post so that may be the issue.:2c:  Either that or maybe it's irrelevant anyhow.

The good news is the Army is going back to Buttons in some areas!  Woo Hoo!


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## HeloMedic1171 (Jun 30, 2009)

Trip_Wire said:


> In the National Guard or Reserve Forces, especially in the past, (Before regular Combat deployments.)  experienced Officers and NCOs wearing their badges on their fatigues, etc. would give a recruit or fellow soldier, some idea of ones expertise and qualifications to lead as well as confidence in their individual abilities. To some extent this applies to regular forces as well.



that's true.  I still think combat patches are more relevant to most joe's simply because how in the hell are you going to tell me, when I'm on my second tour, how to do my effing job when you haven't deployed EVEN ONCE.  had that experience.



surgicalcric said:


> I do wish they would go back to sew-on name and Army tapes and unit patches/tabs.



me too.  nice thing about aviation - you can.  they don't want you pinning holes through the nomex flight suits so instead, they allow sew-on badges on the A2CU.



Trip_Wire said:


> Also, unlike in the past ACUs are worn off post every where, to include travel. I seldom see a soldier now days in Class A's. IMO ACUs look like crap off post in CONUS and travel. They would even look worse without the Badges, Tabs and other stuff we're talking about here.
> 
> IMO, officers should still be able to wear their branch insignia. :2c:



they're everywhere because "we're a nation at war" and it's impractical as shit to pack your A's in a duffle bag with you to deploy so to make it more streamlined, you can travel in ACUs.  however - I don't know about you guys, but my most recent set of PCS orders to Hood said "travel in Uniform is authorized, uniform for travel will be Class A uniform."



Freefalling said:


> Honestly, there aren't many awards/ badges/ tabs that I put much stock in it without knowing the individual and circumstances. Our award policies are broken and it has cheapened the results.



yup.  you have a hard time arguing successfully to me that EVERY PLT SGT in a BN deserves a BSM.  I just don't buy it.  and everyone below that gets an ARCOM?  fuck you. if I didn't need the promotion points (because medic points are, you guessed it, 798) I'd give it back out of principle.  Yes sir, that's correct, it would be my first award.



Trip_Wire said:


> IMO, the top Army badges are:
> 
> 1.) CIB/CMB (Not a school)
> 
> ...



thing about the combat action badge, is it was long overdue.  only Infantrymen and Medics had their own badge, but we're not the only ones who see combat.  there needs to be an award that an MP can wear to show that "yeah, mutherfucker, I did my time in the suck" just like the grunts and docs.  more divirsification (sp?).  the problem I have is the same problem the grunts and docs everywhere else have. I hate that some people get a Combat Action Badge when they were near a mortar that landed in the FOB.  or, they heard gunfire in the distance, but weren't shot at, but yet, they get a Combat Medic Badge.  or everyone else was engaged in fighting, but when the QRF truck rolled up, everyone was getting ready to roll out and charlie mike.... but they get a CIB.  it cheapens it.  I have two tours counting the one I'm on currently, and I have yet to be in the exact right place at the right time for my CMB.  I'm not upset about that, my time will come when it comes, and this tour NO ONE has gotten shit.  that's a good thing.  I just hate that the real meaning behind the badge is lost because someone cut corners in the awards process for glory hunting.



EverSoLost said:


> k......In two years I've bought badges twice....This is two badges per 4 sets of uniforms simply because of tarnishing, chipping, etc. I dont like "re-blacking" because it never maintains IMO.  approximately 60 bucks after shipping.
> 
> I remember my wife sewing them on being much cheaper.  So I'm not seeing the cost savings.
> 
> ...



yeah - I'm tired of having to ditch ACUs because it's too expensive to fix the worn out velcro..... gimme back buttons anyday.  and my take:  if I had the badges, I would wear them, but IF I had them, I'd only make a point of wearing three:  Aircrew Wings, CMB, and jump wings.  those are really the only ones that have a lot of meaning to me.


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