# Low Recruit Discipline Prompts Army to Redesign Basic Training



## Dame (Feb 10, 2018)

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			'A SENSE OF ENTITLEMENT'
		
Click to expand...

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> "What leaders have observed in general is they believe that there is too much of a sense of entitlement, questioning of lawful orders, not listening to instruction, too much of a buddy mentality with NCOs and officers and a lot of tardiness being late to formation and duties," Frost said. "These are trends that they see as increasing that they think are part of the discipline aspect that is missing and that they would like to see in the trainees that become soldiers that come to them as their first unit of assignment."



Now I'm no expert but based on the image they include with the article, they have some pretty basic issues just wearing the same shoes and staying in step.

Low Recruit Discipline Prompts Army to Redesign Basic Training


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## Marauder06 (Feb 10, 2018)

The shoes thing might be because they either haven't been fitted for boots yet, or they're about to do some "uniform PT."  Even in the active force we sometimes train in uniform but in tennis shoes.

The out of step thing?  Unless they're at "route step" yeah I've got nothing.


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## Teufel (Feb 10, 2018)

Sometimes duffelblog articles write themselves.


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## DocIllinois (Feb 10, 2018)

This could also be a combined formation of PT profiles being marched off to some shitty detail while everyone else works out.

The out of step thing could indicate that they're in an early and awkward phase of Basic or in Reception, and Private First Squad, Fourth One Back is about to get some Drill reinforcement to pay attention to her step.  Fifth One Back has already spotted the mistake.


"By early summer, new recruits will go through Army BCT that's designed to instill strict discipline and esprit de corps by placing a new emphasis in drill and ceremony, inspections, pride in military history while increasing the focus on critical training such as physical fitness, marksmanship, communications and battlefield first aid skills."

This is an excellent description of my Basic circa 1993, so in truth its nothing revolutionary we're talking here.  Perhaps BCT goes through cycles of change/ reset that match the cycles of war/ reset that the military goes through.


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## DA SWO (Feb 10, 2018)

1st guy glaring at the camera, LOL.


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## Gunz (Feb 10, 2018)

In a society that promotes trigger warnings, safe spaces, sensitivity seminars, inclusivity, diversity and assorted other touchy-feely bullshit, of course its going to effect the military and discipline in the ranks.

This is not Sparta. Unfortunately.


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## policemedic (Feb 11, 2018)

The problem is obvious.  The Drill Sergeant is not Infantry.


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## Grunt (Feb 11, 2018)

Boot Camp is there to break the individual down from their selfish, entitled selves into an effective member of a team.

If there is a breakdown in that chain, it's because of a failure on the part of the command. Recruits don't get to have their individual wants. If they do, they should leave after being kicked out. 

It's the Army's house...you play by their rules or leave.

At least that's how it happens in the house of Agoge....


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## Topkick (Feb 11, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> In a society that promotes trigger warnings, safe spaces, sensitivity seminars, inclusivity, diversity and assorted other touchy-feely bullshit, of course its going to effect the military and discipline in the ranks.
> 
> This is not Sparta. Unfortunately.



We can reflect and say how it was "back in the day" but I don't see it going back. You may be able to tighten up their shot group a little but political correctness and social experimentation has changed the game and I dont think you can go back to the "good ole days."


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## Devildoc (Feb 11, 2018)

Topkick said:


> We can reflect and say how it was "back in the day" but I don't see it going back. You may be able to tighten up their shot group a little but political correctness and social experimentation has changed the game and I dont think you can go back to the "good ole days."



Kinda agree.  Instead of making society conform to military standards we have to make military standards conform to society.  It's a different society now and if they want to meet quotas the military needs to do something different.


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## Topkick (Feb 11, 2018)

policemedic said:


> The problem is obvious. The Drill Sergeant is not Infantry.



Your post does bring up one issue. The Drill Sergeant has apparently excepted substandard performance from some recruits in this example. Today's Jr NCOs are part of this "entitled" generation and they are the ones who are tasked with enforcing the standards. If you want higher standards, start with fixing and supporting the NCO Corps. I'll climb down off my 1SG soapbox now.X-D


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## policemedic (Feb 11, 2018)

Topkick said:


> Your post does bring up one issue. The Drill Sergeant has apparently excepted substandard performance from some recruits in this example. Today's Jr NCOs are part of this "entitled" generation and they are the ones who are tasked with enforcing the standards. If you want higher standards, start with fixing and supporting the NCO Corps. I'll climb down off my 1SG soapbox now.X-D



My post was obviously in jest, but you’re not wrong. That picture is a snapshot in time and we haven’t got the context to say exactly what’s going on. It would be unfair to blame the DS for what we see when a second before the picture was taken he may have bellowed our corrections or these kids literally just got their uniforms and think “march” is a month. 

You’re spot on about the NCO Corps, though.  A strong NCO Corps is the backbone of the Army and it’s worth putting in the effort to ensure that our high ethical, training and performance standards are upheld at all levels of leadership.


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## Gunz (Feb 11, 2018)

Agoge said:


> Boot Camp is there to break the individual down from their selfish, entitled selves into an effective member of a team.
> 
> If there is a breakdown in that chain, it's because of a failure on the part of the command. Recruits don't get to have their individual wants. If they do, they should leave after being kicked out.
> 
> ...




I hope this doesn't start happening in the Corps...or maybe it has.


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## CDG (Feb 11, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> I hope this doesn't start happening in the Corps...or maybe it has.


I work with a handful of Marines right now, and they all lament the same thing.


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## Marine0311 (Feb 11, 2018)

CDG said:


> I work with a handful of Marines right now, and they all lament the same thing.



How so?


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## CDG (Feb 11, 2018)

Marine0311 said:


> How so?


They say NCOs aren't allowed to be NCOs. Kids run crying to the PL, Gunny, SGM, etc, and then it's the NCOs who get crushed. Remedial PT is treated as hazing.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 11, 2018)

CDG said:


> They say NCOs aren't allowed to be NCOs. Kids run crying to the PL, Gunny, SGM, etc, and then it's the NCOs who get crushed. Remedial PT is treated as hazing.


I kinda wish I didn’t read that.


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## CDG (Feb 11, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I kinda wish I didn’t read that.


A lot of them say it's driving good dudes out after 1 or 2 enlistments.


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## Florida173 (Feb 11, 2018)

Bring back wall to wall counseling


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## Poccington (Feb 11, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> I hope this doesn't start happening in the Corps...or maybe it has.



It's happening all over the globe mate.

Recruits have too much power these days, be it British, Irish, American troops... The pendulum has swung way too far in the favour of Recruits and it has an adverse effect on discipline that is plain to see.


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## Chopstick (Feb 11, 2018)

CDG said:


> A lot of them say it's driving good dudes out after 1 or 2 enlistments.


I happen to know one of those dudes.  My son.


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## x SF med (Feb 12, 2018)

How does a military run without discipline, trust and training?


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## DA SWO (Feb 12, 2018)

x SF med said:


> How does a military run without discipline, trust and training?


It becomes an armed gang.


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## policemedic (Feb 12, 2018)

x SF med said:


> How does a military run without discipline, trust and training?



Clusterfuck (_noun_): a state of perpetual and irreparable incompetence coupled with seemingly infinite levels of enthusiastic idiocy inevitably leading to damaged prospects and the inability to accomplish a desired end state.
_See_: Iraq; _see also_, Afghanistan


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## Queeg (Feb 12, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> 1st guy glaring at the camera, LOL.



Photographer:  "You eyeballin' me recruit?!!"


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## SpitfireV (Feb 12, 2018)

Are those the much loved safety belts around their torsos?


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## Topkick (Feb 12, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> Are those the much loved safety belts around their torsos?




Yep, gives the Command Sergeant Major something to talk about at meetings.


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## Marine0311 (Feb 12, 2018)

Topkick said:


> Yep, gives the Command Sergeant Major something to talk about at meetings.



Are you at said meetings?


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## Topkick (Feb 12, 2018)

Marine0311 said:


> Are you at said meetings?



 Retired....I only have to fear the wrath of Whiskey 6 now, brother.


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## Polar Bear (Feb 12, 2018)

I can re-enlist for the right about of money. They are suppose to crush your soul and rebuild it. They broke me and rebuilt me.


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## Dame (Feb 12, 2018)

Queeg said:


> Photographer:  "You eyeballin' me recruit?!!"


I was thinking the same thing. Hearing Lou Gossett Jr in my head even.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 23, 2018)

Nice. 

Army squad tests new basic training at Fort Sill


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## Box (Jul 23, 2018)

The article has an interesting ending - _“If you’re not prepared, you will fail.” _

But do you really fail?  If a troop performs poorly during that 96-hour FTX do they find themselves on the bus back home?
Society has ill-defined and ill-enforced the concept of failure over the last few decades and military discipline is no different.   Everybody is right and everybody else is wrong, so how do we 'build' warriors from a society that has been bred NOT to even hurt peoples feelings?  

I don't think the toothpaste can ever really be put back in the tube.   The concept of 'citizen soldier' has consequences.  If we want a society full of people that won't say "fat" because it may body shame someone - well, how do we expect citizens to assimilate into the armed forces as disciplined warriors and then BACK into society after we turn them into impersonal killers?

The job of trying to squeeze SOME of the toothpaste back into the tube is a monumental task and for the cadre responsible for completing this task, _“If you’re not prepared, you will fail.” _


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 23, 2018)

Box said:


> But do you really fail? If a troop performs poorly during that 96-hour FTX do they find themselves on the bus back home?
> Society has ill-defined and ill-enforced the concept of failure over the last few decades and military discipline is no different. Everybody is right and everybody else is wrong, so how do we 'build' warriors from a society that has been bred NOT to even hurt peoples feelings?



It looks modeled after the Marine Corps Crucible; which the Corps says you must 'pass' to earn your Eagle Globe and Anchor. 

I have very good buddy who is a former Senior D.I. and he told me that you have to try pretty hard to "fail" the Crucible.  At worst you may be injured and have to be recycled a couple weeks back towards the end of another platoon's 3rd phase.  The overall goal is to teach Marine recruits how far they can push themselves after 54 hours of physical tasks and only 6 hours sleep.


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## Topkick (Jul 23, 2018)

Box said:


> I don't think the toothpaste can ever really be put back in the tube.



The media is so imbedded in everything now, I can only imagine the outrage if we tried to put the toothpaste back in tube. When warriors do warrior-like things, whether in training or war, the world knows and the scrutiny begins immediately. As long as everything is force fed (and often spun in a different direction) to the public, there will be someone getting offended by what they see or hear.


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## EqualReaction (Aug 6, 2018)

I am not a SEAL basher by any means, and I even wanted to be apart of the Teams at one time. (I was a SEAL candidate until I got med dropped in NSW Prep School). I know many good dudes now that have recently got their tridents, and they are awesome in every way. NSW is trying to correct this behavior ground up now, but NSW has a good bit of toxicity in it as well. The stuff that you can do as a Team guy and get away with is disturbing. R.I.P. Chapman.


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## BloodStripe (Aug 7, 2018)

EqualReaction said:


> The stuff that you can do as a Team guy and get away with is disturbing.



Such as what? Have any idea how much Marine grunts get away with?


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## EqualReaction (Aug 7, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Such as what? Have any idea how much Marine grunts get away with?



I'm not a Team Guy so I don't have first hand knowledge, but I know good people who do. I don't want to bash any group so I won't give specifics, but it was mainly about drugs being a problem. NSW is working to get rid of the behavior. They are now trying to keep guys that have that extreme destructive behavior from ever getting a contract in the first place. Most SEALs I came in contact seemed like great dudes, but all are aware of these bad apples. Not much gets done to those bad apples, and that's the problem. I don't know how much Marine Grunts get away with. I can't imagine very much though.


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## Ooh-Rah (Aug 7, 2018)

EqualReaction said:


> I'm not a Team Guy so I don't have first hand knowledge,



Just to help you out a bit in regards to the culture of this site.  We ask that opinions (especially military
Opinions) be based on working first hand knowledge .... otherwise your are talking out of your lane. 

Starting any post with “I don’t have firsthand knowledge” should be a sign that you probably should not comment.


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## EqualReaction (Aug 7, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Just to help you out a bit in regards to the culture of this site.  We ask that opinions (especially military
> Opinions) be based on working first hand knowledge .... otherwise your are talking out of your lane.
> 
> Starting any post with “I don’t have firsthand knowledge” should be a sign that you probably should not comment.


Roger. I apologize. I will say however I do know the Navy is trying to fix the issue. The process to get a contract was already selective when I got one. It’s far more selective now. Even in prep if they think you are a bad apple they will make sure your name goes to the instructors in Coronado, and that’s bad news.


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## Teufel (Aug 7, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Such as what? Have any idea how much Marine grunts get away with?


I remember tons of grunts getting busted down to Private for DUIs and drug use before they were adversely discharged from service... after deploying to Iraq first. I’m not certain NSW follows the same policy. In fact in may be the opposite.


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## GOTWA (Aug 7, 2018)

The times changed.  I got to my first Infantry unit in March 2007 and it was a shit show.  We had guys pissing hot for coke, weed, going AWOL, banging each others' wives, etc.  They took their chances and paid their dues and carried on after their 45/45.  Only the jail rats were chaptered out.  2009/10 rolls around, and if you so much as failed a PT test twice, you were gone.  IMO, the old Army ways died during those years.


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## EqualReaction (Aug 7, 2018)

GOTWA said:


> The times changed.  I got to my first Infantry unit in March 2007 and it was a shit show.  We had guys pissing hot for coke, weed, going AWOL, banging each others' wives, etc.  They took their chances and paid their dues and carried on after their 45/45.  Only the jail rats were chaptered out.  2009/10 rolls around, and if you so much as failed a PT test twice, you were gone.  IMO, the old Army ways died during those years.


Do you think it's because at that time the Army needed everyone because of the war?


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## BloodStripe (Aug 7, 2018)

Teufel said:


> I remember tons of grunts getting busted down to Private for DUIs and drug use before they were adversely discharged from service... after deploying to Iraq first. I’m not certain NSW follows the same policy. In fact in may be the opposite.



I can remember platoons showing up drunk for morning PT on a near constant basis and Nlnobody batting an eye. 1st Sgts telling guys to make sure they wrap it before they tap a married woman whose husband's may or may not be deployed (followed by if you see me in any of the pictures you've found the wrong house). My last five months were spent on a near constant recall every weekend for drug tests because it was such a bad problem throughout our batallion. Only one guy got booted, and that was after finding several pounds of weed in his wall locker. We too had guys going UA getting 45/45 at most. One did it multiple times before they finally shoved him off somewhere else pending his dishonorable discharge. We had Docs giving classes to guys on how to use steriods and which ones are testable. Company level fights in the chapels between barracks on the weekends and nothing being done about it. Marines missing movements in foreign countries because they were still partying and received only 15/15. Air soft battles in the barracks. Paying off Gunny during room inspections by leaving Play Boys or any other type magazine on your rack for him to grab. I could probably keep going. All this during the height of Afghanistan and Iraq. 

I won't derail this thread any longer, but my examples plus nearly every other problem in the military like this starts with shitty leadership. It is one of the primary reasons I did my 4 and got out.


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## Teufel (Aug 8, 2018)

That’s unfortunate. I suppose it’s unit dependent.


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Aug 17, 2018)

We had a bunch of guys get chaptered for pissing hot in my company. Weed, meth and exstasy were popular then. A lot of new guys from the mortar and scout platoon got booted after one bad UA, whereas right after deployment there was 13 guys in the company "pretty sure" they pissed hot, and nothing happened. These things go in cycles and are leadership dependent.


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## Gunz (Aug 17, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> I can remember platoons showing up drunk for morning PT on a near constant basis and Nlnobody batting an eye. 1st Sgts telling guys to make sure they wrap it before they tap a married woman whose husband's may or may not be deployed (followed by if you see me in any of the pictures you've found the wrong house). My last five months were spent on a near constant recall every weekend for drug tests because it was such a bad problem throughout our batallion. Only one guy got booted, and that was after finding several pounds of weed in his wall locker. We too had guys going UA getting 45/45 at most. One did it multiple times before they finally shoved him off somewhere else pending his dishonorable discharge. We had Docs giving classes to guys on how to use steriods and which ones are testable. Company level fights in the chapels between barracks on the weekends and nothing being done about it. Marines missing movements in foreign countries because they were still partying and received only 15/15. Air soft battles in the barracks. Paying off Gunny during room inspections by leaving Play Boys or any other type magazine on your rack for him to grab. I could probably keep going. All this during the height of Afghanistan and Iraq.
> 
> I won't derail this thread any longer, but my examples plus nearly every other problem in the military like this starts with shitty leadership. It is one of the primary reasons I did my 4 and got out.



I'm very disappointed to read this. Not because I'm surprised...but because I was hoping things had changed. In my day, it was racial tension and drugs in the squadbay. The MPs would bring dogs in to sweep the barracks from time to time. The more things change, the more they stay the same. But we're discussing young men, some post-combat, bored with garrison, who train hard and party hard. I suppose some of it is inevitable.



BlackSmokeRisinG said:


> We had a bunch of guys get chaptered for pissing hot in my company. Weed, meth and exstasy were popular then. A lot of new guys from the mortar and scout platoon got booted after one bad UA, whereas right after deployment there was 13 guys in the company "pretty sure" they pissed hot, and nothing happened. These things go in cycles and are leadership dependent.



I think shitty leadership is one of the problems...but I'd blame too much down time and boredom as well. You got to keep young trigger-pullers motivated and busy. Raking pine needles every day in the company area, field-daying barracks for inspections, doing bullshit every day just drives you crazy. Spend some money, let them shoot, blow things up, ride in helos/Ospreys, amtracs, APCs...if you can't keep infantry troops busy they will stagnate.


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## BlackSmokeRisinG (Aug 17, 2018)

^Hell yeah! At first I thought you were going to say give them more details LOL

It's like the military has no budget for training. It all goes to gear and tech a lot of which isn't all that useful. Give me a couple hundred rounds a month and a short land nav course. I would have never left...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 18, 2018)

It was a pretty distinct time between 05 and 08, where the clowns were let in the door... I will say any man can be made to toe the line for awhile, but their character will always shine through. That said, their was a notable  lower standard of training, skill and discipline in that era... regardless of recruitment and or training, or even unit standards... shitty people are shitty people. I know I took a kid behind a conex 08-09'ish, he sent me a email when he made SGT thanking me for that come to Jesus. I was proud to know he stuck with it...


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## DasBoot (Aug 18, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> It was a pretty distinct time between 05 and 08, where the clowns were let in the door... I will say any man can be made to toe the line for awhile, but their character will always shine through. That said, their was a notable  lower standard of training, skill and discipline in that era... regardless of recruitment and or training, or even unit standards... shitty people are shitty people. I know I took a kid behind a conex 08-09'ish, he sent me a email when he made SGT thanking me for that come to Jesus. I was proud to know he stuck with it...


I think the change in the Army- going from tormentors to mentors in training- is a good idea. I will always believe that there is a time and place for an old school smoking. Not corrective training, real “sweet Jesus I may not live” smokings. I would still be a college educated grounds keeper if it wasn’t for that type of “event.”


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## wp18 (Oct 25, 2018)

Brother's at ait right now he just complained yesterday that half the guys are undisciplined and were disrespecting the instructors. He was glad the Drills were there to get on the guys who keeps being distractions.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 25, 2018)

wp18 said:


> Brother's at ait right now he just complained yesterday that half the guys are undisciplined and were disrespecting the instructors. He was glad the Drills were there to get on the guys who keeps being distractions.


Since you are not yet in the military, there is not much you can contribute to this thread.

If your brother wants to join the site and get vetted, he is more than welcome to share his own personal stories.


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## MikeDelta (Oct 26, 2018)

Profiles being marched to the TMC.

All kidding aside though, interesting article. Thanks for posting


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## DocCallahan (Oct 26, 2018)

Edit: 
Stop skipping around the chain links in command. 

Train leaders to be leaders

Help instill some comradarie

Be accountable and hold people accountable

And please show the hell up on time once in a while, maybe.. please?


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## PDL (Dec 14, 2018)

How long have the safety glasses been standard?  I have noticed that the Canadian armed forces always wear them. (I live in Canada).

I am pretty sure we did not wear them in basic training, even on the range, and that was 2008.


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## RackMaster (Dec 14, 2018)

PDL said:


> How long have the safety glasses been standard?  I have noticed that the Canadian armed forces always wear them. (I live in Canada).
> 
> I am pretty sure we did not wear them in basic training, even on the range, and that was 2008.



The CAF Ballistic Eyewear program started around 2004.  It became standard after how much protection they provided in Afghanistan.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 14, 2018)

Yeah, I'm not sure on basic training, but they became the standard around 03-04 in Iraq.


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## AWP (Dec 16, 2018)

I've met at least one soldier who has sight in one eye because of his eye pro. While I'm not a huge fan of trying to "turtle" our guys into safety...eye pro is a no brainer. Want to discuss the merits of side plates? I get it. Eye pro? You lose me there.


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## DasBoot (Dec 16, 2018)

AWP said:


> I've met at least one soldier who has sight in one eye because of his eye pro. While I'm not a huge fan of trying to "turtle" our guys into safety...eye pro is a no brainer. Want to discuss the merits of side plates? I get it. Eye pro? You lose me there.


The last NCOIC of SURT was a huge stickler about eye pro. He had good reason- he has scarring all over his face from a hatton round shattering a surprisingly tough bolt on a door. If he didn’t have his eye pro on he would have been blind. Couple that story with my first tab, Andy, who had his eye almost blown out right before I showed up when he took his eyes off due to them fogging up while he cleared his saw and a round cooked off 10 inches from his face. 90 days of con leave and two suregeries later he kept the eye but still.... eye pro all the way.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 16, 2018)

I have to get permission from him to post here, but I've got pictures of my PSG after he was blown up by a 300lbs VBIED, burns and shrapnel all over his face and body.  Kept both eyes, although one did take damage.  He was wearing his eye pro and took a direct hit, as in about 10m away,  rolled the engine block off his chest, direct hit. 

Eye pro can be a pain in the ass at times,  but it's a must and anyone not wanting to wear it is a damn fool.


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## AWP (Dec 16, 2018)

One soldier I met was SGT with the 101st up in Nangarhar...took a round to his NVG mount, the spall speckled his face; eye pro saved his right eye.
You young guys, I hope you're seeing the trend here....Your PPE can be a pain in the ass, but so can blindness among other injuries.


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