# SAS reservists withdrawn from Afghan front line



## Ravage (Apr 11, 2010)

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ervists-withdrawn-from-Afghan-front-line.html

_SAS reservists have been withdrawn from front line operations in Afghanistan following a review of their unit's operational capability, it can be revealed_

Troops from 21 and 23 SAS, the regiment's Territorial Army battalions, had been responsible for "mentoring" members of the Afghan National Police, but that task has been handed over to a "regular" infantry unit. 

Instead of taking part in operations alongside the regular SAS, the troops from the reserve battalions are now responsible for guarding members of the Foreign Office based in the Afghan capital, Kabul.

It is understood to be the first time in the regiment's history that its troops have been used to guard civil servants on a full-time basis. 

The change in roles followed the drafting of a secret military document which examined the "utility" of the territorial SAS on operations. 

It is understood that the report found that the TA SAS lacked a clearly-defined role, and also stated that the reservists lacked the military capability and skillset to serve alongside the regular special forces. 

The territorial SAS allows hundreds of ordinary civilians to serve in the special forces. Volunteers need to pass a selection programme and training programme similar to those for the regular SAS. 

The lack of a defined role for the TA SAS has now lead to fears that one or both battalions could be axed as part of a raft of cuts expected under the next strategic defence review. 

The Tories have already stated that under a new strategic defence review, "everyone and everything" within the armed forces will have to be justified, and if Labour win the election the same approach will almost certainly be adopted. 

The SAS report, which was drawn up towards the end of last year for the commander of the SAS in Afghanistan, is understood to have caused divisions within the special forces world. 

While many regular SAS personnel supported its findings, TA troops were said to be furious. 

The report followed the deaths of four British troops – three members of 23 SAS and Corporal Sarah Bryant, 26 – who were killed when their Snatch Land Rover was blown up by an improvised explosive device in June 2008 near to Lashkar Gah. 

Cpl Bryant became the first female British soldier to be killed in Afghanistan. 

At the inquest into the deaths of Cpl Sean Reeve, 28, LCpl Richard Larkin, 39, and Private Paul Stout, 31, it was disclosed that the troops had not carried out mandatory searches when their patrol entered what was a clearly-identifiable "vulnerable point". 

One SAS commander also claimed that the reservists did not receive proper counter-IED training and were ill-prepared for operations in Helmand. 

The Cold War role of the SAS reservists was to conduct long-range patrols and report on the movement of Warsaw Pact forces as they crossed into western Europe – a role which no longer exists. 

Reservists were deployed into the Balkans in the mid-1990s as a composite unit known as "V" Squadron where they took part in peace support operations, which allowed regular members of the SAS to be used for other tasks. 

One senior military source said that there had been a long-held prejudice with the SAS against using members of the TA which stemmed from the first Gulf War in 1991. 

He said: "The TA SAS were used as battle casualty replacements in the first Gulf War but it wasn't that successful and since then there has been a certain resentment by more senior elements of the SAS to the TA. 

"In many cases they refuse to work with them. But they are a fantastic talent and a role should be found for them." 

The source added that they could be used to supplement the Brigade Reconnaissance Force in Helmand, or the Pathfinders, a parachute-trained organisation which also conducts long-range patrols. 

UK-based roles, the source added, could include military support to the intelligence and security community. 

The TA SAS were first deployed to Afghanistan in 2003 where they helped to establish a communications network across Afghanistan and also acted as liaison teams between the various political groups, Nato and the fledgling Afghan government. 

But when the insurgency in Helmand began in 2006, that role was withdrawn. 

A spokesman for the Ministry of Defence said: "We do not comment on special forces."


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## Rapid (Apr 11, 2010)

Of course 21 & 23 SAS can't keep up with 22 SAS, but that doesn't mean they should be scrapped.


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## 7point62 (Apr 11, 2010)

Rapid said:


> it's the same prejudice NG SF receive from _some_ SF soldiers)




Nothing like a bit of good old working-class resentment in the ranks to complicate the general effort.


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## Jorock12 (Apr 11, 2010)

Im very interested in how this part time special forces role works out, what happens to the 2 SAS batts when there in garrison anyways? and how are they trained when compared to Pathfinders? I know the Pathfinders here in canada couldnt be replaced by a reserve force of any kind.


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## pardus (Apr 12, 2010)

No fucking female is in the SAS!

This is a BS article written to sensationalize a Soldiers death unless I'm very much mistaken.

Are reserve forces as well trained as regular forces? Of course not! We in the Military have known that for hundreds of years.
However, the reserve component has much to offer that the regular Soldiers don't and in many situations perform better than the regulars. 
This is a failure or Army policy and also of prejudice that is fucking a perfectly capable unit. 

Fuck!


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## AWP (Apr 12, 2010)

People forget when discussing the Guard/ Reserves in America (and I'd guess the UK is the same or similar) is that they aren't designed to go from activation to wheels up in 18 hours. Now, you can have reserve units with a high state of readiness, and I'd venture certain MOS's and duties can be on a par with their AD counterparts though those jobs are in the minority, but reserve formations do have one unique benefit and that is bringing their civilian skill sets to the fight once activated. My old Guard unit had everything from college students to NASA employees.

To adequately use reserve formations you will need to provide them with a train-up period once activated. Not knowing how the UK does business I can't comment on some of the article's complaints, but I think cutting units needs to be a last resort. Instead, they should look at how to better prepare what they have and what/ who went wrong.


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## dknob (Apr 15, 2010)

From what I understand the capability/skill gap between 21st/23rd SAS and the 22nd is much larger than the gap between NG SF and Active Duty SF


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## Rapid (Apr 15, 2010)

Not sure, as I don't know what the gap between NG SF / AD SF is like.


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## pardus (Apr 15, 2010)

dknob said:


> From what I understand the capability/skill gap between 21st/23rd SAS and the 22nd is much larger than the gap between NG SF and Active Duty SF


 
From my limited knowledge that sounds right.

In NZ you could only go reserve SAS after you'd been regular Army SAS, limiting numbers wise, but effective.


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## Ravage (Apr 15, 2010)

There was an idea to create a Reserve SOF unit in Poland, based on vets from GROM and the Regiment. 'Nuff said it did not work. 
Then one GROM guy (one of the Unit's 'oryginals') wanted airsofters to become a 'reserve component for SOF units'......didn't work out eighter.


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## Rapid (Apr 15, 2010)

Ravage said:


> Then one GROM guy (one of the Unit's 'oryginals') wanted airsofters to become a 'reserve component for SOF units'......didn't work out eighter.



Airsofters? Huh?



Ravage said:


> There was an idea to create a Reserve SOF unit in Poland, based on vets from GROM and the Regiment. 'Nuff said it did not work.



What do you mean "'Nuff said"? If it didn't work out, it was someone's fault or there were limitations that prevented it from working. Reserve SOF units work when they have proper management and missions specific to their abilities.

Not only are 21 & 23 SAS extremely good (of course you can't expect the units to take on the same workload or missions as regular SAS), they also serve as a stepping stone into 22 SAS.


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## pardus (Apr 15, 2010)

So the people who wanted airsofters to join their unit couldn't get a reserve unit working properly? Shocking!

lol


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## Ravage (Apr 15, 2010)

I'm not in the loop but from what I've read SOF reserves never came to life because we didn't have a OSCOM-like command structure. Now we do in the form of DWS, so there is a chance we will open that door once again.
As for the airsofters, the idea was to give them initial military training, and 'nurture them' 'till they are of age to enter the military. Keep track of their record and help them get through the beurocratic maze to have a try for Selection to eighter GROM, The Regiment or Formoza. As I said, it did not work. Still, GROM is known to take the top O's from their classes and give them a slot at Selection. Where normally you would have to serve at least 3 years in your regular unit.


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## dknob (Apr 15, 2010)

pardus said:


> From my limited knowledge that sounds right.
> 
> In NZ you could only go reserve SAS after you'd been regular Army SAS, limiting numbers wise, but effective.


 
Sounds like the Kiwis got it right. Thats a really good system.


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## dknob (Apr 15, 2010)

Dude, Ravage. I thought you were fucking with us regarding the airsoft thing. 

Jesus...


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## JimMCpog (Apr 18, 2010)

I read that Poland will be building a larger reserve force with the TA and NG as examples. I always thought reserve forces were valued because they bring skills or life experience that may be in short supply on active duty. From what I've read about NG SF they end up training much more than 1 weekend a month, 2 weeks a year. How could they with all that's needed? I wonder if the disdain for 21/23 SAS is as widespread as this article implies. They should be the first in line to draw up a plan of action to fix them, not write them off publicly.
http://www.thenews.pl/press/artykul128559_ministers-in-for-overdue-holiday.html


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## dknob (Apr 18, 2010)

I don't know how or why they could ever think that a reserve/territorial unit like the 21st or the 23rd SAS could ever replicate a full time counter terrorism unit such as the 22nd. That's like saying we should try creating a couple of national guard Delta squadrons. Thinking about it now, the skill gap between both sides has to be fn huge. There most certainly has to be incredible disdain by the 22nd guys because of the name sharing lol. Idk, but in my opinion i have always considered the 22nd to be the real and only SAS, and the 21st and 23rd just two units that somehow ended up sharing the same name. Bear Grylls is not that tough.
How is selection and initial training for the 21st and 23rd as opposed to 22nd?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 18, 2010)

Free Falling hit the nail on the head “we train the RC/NG up before they deploy” and it brings those forces to a better tactical proficiency level and gets them up to date on current TTP’s.

As for the AD being better then the RC/NG, I strongly disagree with this (at least for the US). I have seen RC more so NG soldiers out perform their AD counter parts on more then just a few levels. 

A good example is to watch a NG soldier running an exercise in Kuwait with a team of AD/RC/NG soldier all mixed together. I have seen it and the NG soldier were better shooters, better tactically, and had a better understanding of what was going on. I think the AD is more disciplined and normally in better physical shape at least that’s how it is on the conventional side.

I wouldn’t know on the SF AD/NG side of things though…


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Apr 18, 2010)

dknob said:


> I don't know how or why they could ever think that a reserve/territorial unit like the 21st or the 23rd SAS could ever replicate a full time counter terrorism unit such as the 22nd. That's like saying we should try creating a couple of national guard Delta squadrons. Thinking about it now, the skill gap between both sides has to be fn huge.



This is a very good point as well, CT level SOF is in a whole league in it’s self... How would AD SFODA compare to a SFOD-D team?


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## Rapid (Apr 18, 2010)

Agreed.


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## AWP (Apr 18, 2010)

Would 21/23 SAS be better suited if they focused on a specific mission or two rather than being given too many tasks and diluting their skill sets?


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## Scotth (Apr 18, 2010)

Like FF said expecting a reserve components force to be as high speed as there AD counter parts is ridiculous idea. It doesn't matter if there conventional or SOF. Having those battalions in place and not having to reinvent the wheel if you need more capabilities will be a huge asset.

If they continue to not meet the needs of the military that is a failure of the chain of command not the battalions. Reading the article and all the talking about finding the TA a "role" screams out what the very heart of the problem is. There role should be the same as the AD counter parts with plans on how to conduct training in peace time and a detailed plan on the train up needed to make them deployable when needed. Not some lesser "role" that they can conduct at there current training level.


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## AWP (Apr 18, 2010)

Scotth said:


> Reading the article and all the talking about finding the TA a "role" screams out what the very heart of the problem is. There role should be the same as the AD counter parts with plans on how to conduct training in peace time and a detailed plan on the train up needed to make them deployable when needed. Not some lesser "role" that they can conduct at there current training level.



But the CT aspect of 22 SAS isn't something that can be done as a Reservist.


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## Rapid (Apr 18, 2010)

dknob said:


> Idk, but in my opinion i have always considered the 22nd to be the real and only SAS, and the 21st and 23rd just two units that somehow ended up sharing the same name.



Missed this the first time round... See, 22 SAS was formed by members of 21 SAS (who helped successfully defeat the Malayan insurgency), not the other way round, so it very much is the "real" SAS. Just as real as all the former (and perhaps future) Regiments, because the SAS didn't begin with 22 and there's nothing to say that it'll end with it for sure. SAS doesn't = "CT"; that's just what 22 SAS does.



			
				Free Falling said:
			
		

> Would 21/23 SAS be better suited if they focused on a specific mission or two rather than being given too many tasks and diluting their skill sets?



Right now the core role is Support and Influence operations (S&I). S&I operations are often conducted in support of the work of other government departments, or as part of a wider initiative to achieve political or military objectives. The role encompasses: 1) Training tasks in support of foreign policy and defence policy. 2) The support and/or influence of 'third parties' within the operational environment (ex: forward presence, training and liaison with allies and other relevant parties). 3) "Hearts and Minds" support for and influence of indigenous populations. 4) Raising, training and supporting indigenous forces. 5) Information Operations.

S&I operations may also contribute to PSYOP campaigns although that isn't a specific UKSF role. If 22 SAS didn't handle counter-terrorism and a lot of the direct action, then the reserve Regiments just wouldn't work. Since 22 does handle the aforementioned roles, I wouldn't say there are too many tasks (just mostly what I outlined). There's a clear and achievable role for the reserves, but some people might be messing up their expectations and/or their management...


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## pardus (Apr 18, 2010)

Not quite right mate.

22 SAS was formed separately and independently from 21SAS (in Malaya) as an unconventional unit, 21 SAS were a conventional unit as was the wartime SAS for the most part.

Members of 21 SAS did join the Malayan Scouts to form B squadron but that was after the formation of A & HQ squadrons.





Rapid said:


> Missed this the first time round... See, 22 SAS was formed by members of 21 SAS (who helped successfully defeat the Malayan insurgency), not the other way round, so it very much is the "real" SAS. Just as real as all the former (and perhaps future) Regiments, because the SAS didn't begin with 22 and there's nothing to say that it'll end with it for sure.


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## Ravage (Apr 19, 2010)

Lubliniec did some training sesions with the 21st SAS (TA). Our guys learned much from the Brits.


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## digrar (Apr 19, 2010)

Michael Asher has a book called Shoot To Kill that gives a fairly comprehensive account of his selection for 23 SAS back in the 80's, along with his time in 2 Para in NI and the SPG of the RUC.


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## Rapid (Apr 19, 2010)

pardus said:


> Not quite right mate.
> 
> 22 SAS was formed separately and independently from 21SAS (in Malaya) as an unconventional unit, 21 SAS were a conventional unit as was the wartime SAS for the most part.
> 
> Members of 21 SAS did join the Malayan Scouts to form B squadron but that was after the formation of A & HQ squadrons.



True, didn't mean to say 21 made up 22 all by themselves, but they certainly played a part. When 21 SAS was formed, it was done because the government wanted a commando unit; they chose the Artists Rifles which was a conventional unit up until then. Eventually they acquired special operations capabilities through a squadron which ended up in Malaya (instead of Korea, as was first intended), and, as you said, was assigned as B squadron in the Malayan Scouts (which then became 22 SAS). The rest of 21 SAS back home didn't really do much until after the end of the Cold War.


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## Scotth (Apr 19, 2010)

Freefalling said:


> But the CT aspect of 22 SAS isn't something that can be done as a Reservist.


 
Agreed that CT is another animal completely.  My understanding of the 22nd is about special operation as a whole with a segment of the 22nd dedicated to the CT role.  I would think the 21st and 23rd with the proper selection and training and pre-deployment train up, if done correctly, could fill in all the other roles beyond CT.

From what I have read the problems starts in the selection phase and just continues beyond that point IMHO.  Treating the TA selection process as a part-time 9 weekend process and a couple week long phases instead of the same selection process as the 22nd endures is a real mistake.  To endure a couple days of training with a week break then rinse and repeat is a helluva lot easier then enduring 5 weeks of continual selection process.  If you have a reserve component they need to meet the same standards period.  Yes in peace time they can do the part-time training with the understanding that there will need to be enough training pre-deployment to bring the troops up to speed to meet the same standard.  I think there are 2 standards and people are shocked because the troops aren't of the same capabilities.

Didn't the Special Forces way back in the day have a part-time selection process for RC Special Forces Groups as well that caused AD vs RC friction as well?


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## AWP (Apr 19, 2010)

I think it was one of McNab's books that mentioned how various members/ troops within the SAS rotate into the CT role, but that isn't a discussion I think we should have here. Considering that 22 SAS kind of rolls our SF and SMU's into one unit would make it hard for a TA unit to follow up to that standard.

The older SF guys would know the full story, but for a long time Guard and Reserve SF soldiers had to attend a correspondence course for the SF identifier (this was pre-18 series MOS). They did  a bunch of work at their unit and then 2, 2-week AT periods if my very fuzzy memory is correct (as related to me by an old 1SG who went through it). There's always been some friction between the AD and NG over NGSF, or I should say some individuals have issues with it, but if I understand our NGSF training as it compares to that of 21/23 SAS, our SF guys go through the entire SF pipeline from selection to graduation while theirs do not.



Scotth said:


> Agreed that CT is another animal completely.  My understanding of the 22nd is about special operation as a whole with a segment of the 22nd dedicated to the CT role.  I would think the 21st and 23rd with the proper selection and training and pre-deployment train up, if done correctly, could fill in all the other roles beyond CT.
> 
> From what I have read the problems starts in the selection phase and just continues beyond that point IMHO.  Treating the TA selection process as a part-time 9 weekend process and a couple week long phases instead of the same selection process as the 22nd endures is a real mistake.  To endure a couple days of training with a week break then rinse and repeat is a helluva lot easier then enduring 5 weeks of continual selection process.  If you have a reserve component they need to meet the same standards period.  Yes in peace time they can do the part-time training with the understanding that there will need to be enough training pre-deployment to bring the troops up to speed to meet the same standard.  I think there are 2 standards and people are shocked because the troops aren't of the same capabilities.
> 
> Didn't the Special Forces way back in the day have a part-time selection process for RC Special Forces Groups as well that caused AD vs RC friction as well?


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## Rapid (Apr 20, 2010)

While it might seem a lot easier to pass selection through a series of weekends (and a couple of continuous weeks) rather than in one long period, the difficulty is still well up there. In fact the endurance side will be ramped up to take this into account (i.e. that you've had all week to rest).


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## pardus (Apr 20, 2010)

As Rapid says, selection is no doubt easier than 22 SAS's but it is sill bloody difficult.

Here's a good book about selection for 21 SAS in the 80's

http://www.amazon.com/Quiet-Soldier-Selection-21-SAS/dp/1857971582


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## SpitfireV (Apr 20, 2010)

There's a good bit about it in Richard Tomlinson's book too, I think he went to 23SAS before moving to SIS later on. 

FWIW the actor who played Bodie in the 1970s documentary series The Professionals passed selection for TA SAS but then told he had too high a profile for the unit IIRC.


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## pardus (Apr 20, 2010)

Rapid said:


> While it might seem a lot easier to pass selection through a series of weekends (and a couple of continuous weeks) rather than in one long period, the difficulty is still well up there. In fact the endurance side will be ramped up to take this into account (i.e. that you've had all week to rest).


 
Yes indeed, this is still the SAS!

They did shorten endurance down from 50 miles right?

Every SAS selection course in the world is different, there are currently 5 different selections to gain entry into one of the SAS units.

In NZSAS, they carry about an 80lb ruck as opposed to the Brit 55lb ruck but the Brits move alot faster than the Kiwis.

Everyone has adapted their selection to mach their needs.

One thing also being overlooked here is the caliber of men.
21/23 SAS might not have the sharpest skills but they have men with the right attitude who can in a pinch be trained up to do anything, the foundation is set.

Personally I'd rather take an unfit, undertrained person than take some asshole I dont trust who is mega fit and has passed every school you care to name.
Badges dont nessasarily impress me, attitude does.

:2c:


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## pardus (Apr 20, 2010)

SpitfireV said:


> There's a good bit about it in Richard Tomlinson's book too, I think he went to 23SAS before moving to SIS later on.
> 
> FWIW the actor who played Bodie in the 1970s documentary series The Professionals passed selection for TA SAS but then told he had too high a profile for the unit IIRC.


 
Great show!   

Yes you are correct about Bodie, he was a serving member of 10 Para when he went to selection, got a funny feeling he was an Officer (Lt).

p.s. did you know Billy Connolly was in 15 Para?


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## SpitfireV (Apr 20, 2010)

I didn't know that! All I can see is that hair under the beret LOL! Rhys Darby from Conchords was RNZIR too, while we're on the topic of celebrity mil people. He was top recruit and did very well in his unit as I understand but he downplays it and says he was a slacker ha.


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## Scotth (Apr 20, 2010)

pardus said:


> One thing also being overlooked here is the caliber of men.
> 21/23 SAS might not have the sharpest skills but they have men with the right attitude who can in a pinch be trained up to do anything, the foundation is set.


 
My point exactly.  Better to have the men in the reserves when you need that additional capability then having to start at ground zero.  It gonna be quicker and cheaper getting them up to speed then starting at the selection phase and having to run a bunch of green recruits through the whole pipe line.


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## digrar (Apr 21, 2010)

One of the Wiggles was an Infantryman in 5/7RAR, Brian Johnson from AC/DC was also a TA Para, he enlisted because the jump pay was good and he was trying to buy an amp for his band.


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## QC (Apr 21, 2010)

Now there's a thought... Brian Johnson as front man for the Wiggles.


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## digrar (Apr 21, 2010)

The boys were all in pub bands prior to hitting the big time singing to 4 year olds. Brian would fit right in. ;)


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## QC (Apr 21, 2010)

True, The Cockroaches and The Roadmasters. They used to mix it up and have members from both get up and they played under the names The Cockmasters and The Roadroaches. I'm sure those Wiggle guys hit the piss when they get home...the Krusty the Clown factor must be high.


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## Ravage (Apr 21, 2010)

We went from the SAS to bar bands....this place rocks


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## _KJ_ (Aug 17, 2010)

The barbands discussion not withstanding..

We had sort of the same problem with FJS/IK as forcemultipliers for SF.
The answer in our case were to create a Group with different elements.
Most FJS were folded into SIG that has gotten a smaller but clearer role in the "SF package".
SIG are now (contracted officers that can if they wish rotate out of the active unit after their contract term is up) pulls alot of the intel/LRRP work.
Thus freeing up shooters for their specific mission templates.

It would be a shame if the TA SAS goes as they have a long history.

KJ.


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