# At some point the Army is going to run out of beret colors



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 11, 2019)

The Army Is Thinking About Giving SOF PSYOP Soldiers a Distinctive New Beret

“In a move to more closely link Army Special Operations Forces, the PSYOP Proponent at the U.S. Army John F. Kennedy Special Warfare Center and School is exploring the idea of a distinctive uniform item, like a grey beret, to those Soldiers who graduate the Psychological Operations Qualification Course," Bymer said in a statement.

Soldiers with Army Special Forces currently wear green berets, while Rangers wear tan, paratroopers are in maroon, and the rest of the force rock black.


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## Grunt (Nov 11, 2019)

As with anything, once something is "mass duplicated" -- it loses its significance.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 11, 2019)

And there is a brown one too?

Berets of the United States Army - Wikipedia

I’m going to say something a little controversial, but I’ve always believed that only the Green Berets and the 75th should be authorized to wear that particular headgear.  But to add on to what @Vagabond said above:


Vagabond said:


> As with anything, once something is "mass duplicated" -- it loses its significance.


What fun is it to be Special, if you cannot show everyone you are “Special”.


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## Kraut783 (Nov 11, 2019)

naw pass, as a former PSYOP guy, just keep it Maroon.


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## Gunz (Nov 11, 2019)

For crying out load...


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## DA SWO (Nov 11, 2019)

Kraut783 said:


> naw pass, as a former PSYOP guy, just keep it Maroon.



I think they are trying to distance themselves from the 82nd as their selection process has evolved.



Ooh-Rah said:


> I’m going to say something a little controversial, but I’ve always believed that only the Green Berets and the 75th should be authorized to wear that particular headgear.



Disagree, Maroon is the international beret for Airborne Troops, I do have issue with non-Paratroopers wearing maroon.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 11, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> Disagree, Maroon is the international beret for Airborne Troops, I do have issue with non-Paratroopers wearing maroon.


Perfect; never knew that.


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## SOSTCRNA (Nov 11, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> I think they are trying to distance themselves from the 82nd as their selection process has evolved.
> 
> 
> 
> Disagree, Maroon is the international beret for Airborne Troops, I do have issue with non-Paratroopers wearing maroon.



Yepper


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## Polar Bear (Nov 11, 2019)

I would prefer blue, it would match my eyes.


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## DA SWO (Nov 11, 2019)

Polar Bear said:


> I would prefer blue, it would match my eyes.


AIR ASSAULT!


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## Johca (Nov 11, 2019)

Actually maroon is the beret color adopted since WWII for infantry and support MOSs assigned to airborne organizations/units.  It's more a traditional designation acceptance by militaries than an International imposed decree that maroon is the color for being airborne. Typically it is primary colors (red, blue and yellow) and secondary colors ( orange, green and purple/violet) that set the primary symbolism associations (element, mythology, power of nature) other hues/shaded inherit.  

Awareness of two perspectives of designated beret color is needed, reference AR 870–5.

(1) A traditional designation—one used by an organization continuously for the last 30 years or more.

(2) A distinctive designation—one used by an organization for less than 30 years or one with which an organization wishes to be associated.

Some historical info:

Red and hues and shades of red symbolize blood of life, boldness, Christ, courage, hardiness, liberty, magnanimity, passion, patriotism, planet Mars, sentiment, strength, valor, warmth (of fire), and zeal. Negative: anarchy, blood (spilled), danger, death throes, Satan, fire (burning), passions, revolution, war, and wounds.

The first instance of a colored beret in the U.S. Army was in *1943*, Army Historical Foundation chief historian Matt Seelinger told Army Times.

The commander of the British 1st Airborne Corps gifted the paratroopers of the 509th Parachute Infantry Battalion — now a regiment, the unit is now part of 4th Brigade Combat Team, 25th Infantry Division — the deep red berets worn by British airborne soldiers.  “It was a relatively small part of the American airborne contingent,” Seelinger said, and they stopped wearing them after the war.

*June 1942:* United States’ 1st Army Ranger Battalion activated in Northern Ireland under Maj. William O. Darby. Six Ranger battalions were formed for war service.  Soldiers who completed the rigorous British training won the right to wear the British Commando green beret. wear was also discontinued until U.S. Army formed its first Special Forces organizations during 1952.   It did not become the official headgear worn by Army Special Forces until 1961.  It didn't get connected to an MOS until the Special Forces Branch and 18 series MOS were established in the 1980s.


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## Gunz (Nov 11, 2019)

What do Marines get? Nothing. No bling, no trinkets. Nothing on their uniform they haven't earned. No division patches, no regimental patches, no berets, no tabs, scrolls. If a Marine goes through the Ranger course, he can't wear the tab. If he goes through the Jungle Warfare course (as I did) he gets no Jungle Expert patch. Marine infantry train in air assault. We get no Air Assault badge. If there was a badge for amphibious assault...we wouldn't get one.


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## Johca (Nov 11, 2019)

The USMC did approve the Marine Special Operator breast Insignia in September 2016.    Marine Special Operators Insignia


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## Polar Bear (Nov 11, 2019)

Gunz said:


> What do Marines get? Nothing. No bling, no trinkets. Nothing on their uniform they haven't earned. No division patches, no regimental patches, no berets, no tabs, scrolls. If a Marine goes through the Ranger course, he can't wear the tab. If he goes through the Jungle Warfare course (as I did) he gets no Jungle Expert patch. Marine infantry train in air assault. We get no Air Assault badge. If there was a badge for amphibious assault...we wouldn't get one.


A condom stretched over their head. We don’t want them to reproduce


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## Teufel (Nov 11, 2019)

Polar Bear said:


> A condom stretched over their head. We don’t want them to reproduce


That's not the part that makes babies buddy. You actually tend to reproduce more when its neutralized.


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## DA SWO (Nov 11, 2019)

Gunz said:


> *What do Marines get?* Nothing. No bling, no trinkets. Nothing on their uniform they haven't earned. No division patches, no regimental patches, no berets, no tabs, scrolls. If a Marine goes through the Ranger course, he can't wear the tab. If he goes through the Jungle Warfare course (as I did) he gets no Jungle Expert patch. Marine infantry train in air assault. We get no Air Assault badge. If there was a badge for amphibious assault...we wouldn't get one.



64 Box of crayolas?


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## digrar (Nov 11, 2019)

Rifle Green Royal Australian Regiment.
Sherwood Green, 1 and 2 Commando.
Fawn (Sandy), SASR.
Dull Cherry (Maroon), Only the dudes at the Parachute Training School now. 
Light blue, Aviation.
Scarlet (Red), MPs.
Black, Armoured and Light Horse.
Slate grey, Nurses (never ever seen it worn).
Dark blue (Dark Navy), Everyone else. 

Similar to the Brits, although they have a few variations.


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## AWP (Nov 11, 2019)

I may take a beating, but whatevs.

As @digrar posted above, other militaries hae a veritable rainbow of beret colors. The US has only had three since the end of WWII for whatever reason(s) and those were SOF-related.

My hot take: Give PSYOP and CA the same beret color (They should also have a universal assessment and selection program, but so should SOF enablers and I'll shut up now). They are SOF-affiliated (that's the short version) and support both SOF and conventional units. Give them the same beret and move on. It isn't worth all of the heartburn and there are far larger problems to solve.

ETA: The SOF aspect to berets in the US sailed with Shinsecki. We need to get over it and move on. Sometimes "back in my day..." is a dumb argument.


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## Johca (Nov 11, 2019)

More accurate and correct is the US ARMY has only had three tradition connected berets since the end of WWII for whatever reason(s) and those were SOF-related.  The Air Force has bit different since WWII beret wear and approval history.

So what is the three US military SOF related, US Army Special Forces, 75th Ranger Regiment and/or previously existing Ranger units, and ?.  I'm presuming the ? is Army and not Air Force, Navy, USMC, or Coast Guard.  Just wondering if the ? is Army airborne units or something else.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 11, 2019)

Shinseki retired in 2003.  The black beret should have left the Army with him.  If given a choice, most units would opt out of the black beret, because it is an expensive, useless, high-maintenance, dumb-looking-on-people-who-don't-know-how-to-wear-it piece of crap.

I don't know what maroon isn't good enough for PSYOP, but if the Army goes down this road, every ARSOF organization is going to want their own headgear.  If we're going to do this, I vote to take away black from Big Army (most of whom would LOVE that) and give it to all of ARSOF that doesn't already have their own berets, including support types who go through a selection and assessment course and are in units that don't all wear the same color headgear (e.g. SF Groups).


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## Box (Nov 12, 2019)

Everyone in 1ST SOCOM briefly wore green berets.
...not USSOCOM
1ST SOCOM

Before the SF Tab became a thing the differnce was the size of the flash.  But organizational headgear was organizational headgear.  Then there was a tab - so if you had a green beret and no tab then you were most likely a support guy.
Who gets to wear Tan?
...do guys in Regiment WITHOUT a tab have to wear something else?
No.
ORGANIZATIONAL HEADGEAR.
Organizational Headgear worked fine for EVERYONE a long ,long time.
Now everyone needs their own identity and a mood-beret to show how tactical they are feeling with their current MOS
...because muh' feelings

Put everyone in the 1st Special Forces Command in a fucking green beret and be done with it.  If you arent wearing an SF Tab - guess what you probably arent an SF guy. 
but you are in the organization and therefore you are part of the team. 
"Team Guys" above all should recognze the importance of "the team" so why do we need MORE colors to further take away from the spirit of "the team"
...why dont the troops that completed SFBCC-S get a beret color?   Shouldn't THEY be recognized too ??

Nothing is special any more.


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## Devildoc (Nov 12, 2019)

Box said:


> Everyone in 1ST SOCOM briefly wore green berets.
> ...not USSOCOM
> 1ST SOCOM
> 
> ...



Which, @Gunz , which is why I am just fine with the Marines' unform: they are special unto themselves.

I have the same issue with the Navy and all of the "warfare" breast badges.


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## Gunz (Nov 12, 2019)

Johca said:


> The USMC did approve the Marine Special Operator breast Insignia in September 2016.    Marine Special Operators Insignia



Yes sir, I remember when the Det One guys started showing up at MacDill...before they were called MARSOC. Then, a few years later, when they were finally allowed the "Raider" title, I was hoping the old Raider patch would be authorized wear.


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## AWP (Nov 12, 2019)

Box said:


> Everyone in 1ST SOCOM briefly wore green berets.
> ...not USSOCOM
> 1ST SOCOM
> 
> ...



Wasn't that the "candy stripe" period where the non-SF soldiers wore a horizontal-bar version of the unit flash and SF-qualed had both the tab and the full flash?


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## Devildoc (Nov 12, 2019)

Gunz said:


> Yes sir, I remember when the Det One guys started showing up at MacDill...before they were called MARSOC. Then, a few years later, when they were finally allowed the "Raider" title, I was hoping the old Raider patch would be authorized wear.
> 
> View attachment 30372



This has significant historical connotation.  That would have been very cool.


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## Box (Nov 12, 2019)

AWP said:


> Wasn't that the "candy stripe" period where the non-SF soldiers wore a horizontal-bar version of the unit flash and SF-qualed had both the tab and the full flash?



Indeed - but when the candy stripe went away EVERYONE wore a full flash.  When I first came in the Army, I spent two years as a support guy in  the 7th SFG.  The "old guys" didn't care that support guys wore Green Berets - what bugged them is that we had a full flash.  

In fact, if we go back far enough we could even find candy-stripers serving on an ODA.  Go back a tad bit and we could even find "full flash" qual'ed guys with a Quartermaster or some other odd career branch MOS because SF wasn't its own branch until the mid-1980s.
"Top Skanes" was the Mess Sgt in 7th SFG back in the 80's and was Ranger/SF Qualified.  

Nobody really gave two shits about beret color back then.  Most of the grief started when pregnant females from the 112th and 528th started parading around the Smoke Bomb Hill area in oversized green berets dropping halfway down the side of their head like a renegade pizza chef.  That is when the old guys and the higher ups really started freaking out. 

The "big" beret color change across 1st SOCOM was brought about when it was commanded by a gent that didn't have a Green Beret - Rangers still had black berets  back then.  I was already halfway through the SFQC and didn't really care WHAT color they were going to wear.
...and now we give everyone their own color - "Mood Berets" - mark my word - it wont be long and CA will throw a hissy fit for their own headgear now that Psyop's are getting a special color.

We should change the tab from "Special Forces" to one that just carries the abbreviation for "*P*rofessional *F*orces *F*ocusing on *T*raining" (PFFT)


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 12, 2019)

Box said:


> Most of the grief started when pregnant females from the 112th and 528th started parading around the Smoke Bomb Hill area in oversized green berets dropping halfway down the side of their head like a renegade pizza chef.


😂


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## Kraut783 (Nov 12, 2019)

"it wont be long and CA will throw a hissy fit for their own headgear now that Psyop's are getting a special color." 

I hope it doesn't come to that, lets just keep it the way it is.


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## CQB (Nov 12, 2019)

Gunz said:


> What do Marines get? Nothing. No bling, no trinkets. Nothing on their uniform they haven't earned. No division patches, no regimental patches, no berets, no tabs, scrolls. If a Marine goes through the Ranger course, he can't wear the tab. If he goes through the Jungle Warfare course (as I did) he gets no Jungle Expert patch. Marine infantry train in air assault. We get no Air Assault badge. If there was a badge for amphibious assault...we wouldn't get one.


Don’t sweat it, there’s an old saying, “the more ornate the uniform the worse the soldier.” 
As for beret colours; I’d go Ming blue or a delicate & very fetching mauve.


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## AWP (Nov 12, 2019)

Box said:


> Indeed - but when the candy stripe went away EVERYONE wore a full flash.  When I first came in the Army, I spent two years as a support guy in  the 7th SFG.  The "old guys" didn't care that support guys wore Green Berets - what bugged them is that we had a full flash.
> 
> In fact, if we go back far enough we could even find candy-stripers serving on an ODA.  Go back a tad bit and we could even find "full flash" qual'ed guys with a Quartermaster or some other odd career branch MOS because SF wasn't its own branch until the mid-1980s.
> "Top Skanes" was the Mess Sgt in 7th SFG back in the 80's and was Ranger/SF Qualified.
> ...



Ah, yes. Thank you for jogging my memory. Those days were before my time, but as a history junkie and former support guy I'd heard and read the stories. When I was in back in the 90's we even had 2-3 MACV-SOG vets, so their stories and perspectives were eye opening. Every single one of them cited pregnant females in green berets as the catalyst for change.


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## DasBoot (Nov 14, 2019)

instagram has been the biggest winner out of all this.


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## 11Bull (Nov 18, 2019)

The black beret is the only reason the 82nd has retention. 
When I put that awful thing on my head at basic training I knew I should have joined the Marines. 
When it was a Ranger thing it was cool though.


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## Box (Nov 18, 2019)

So - why NOT a different color for Civil Affairs?
They have a selection and a culmination event?

Why NOT a different color for SOAR?
They don't just fly helicopters - they fly COOL helicopters.

The SFAB got a beret - and lord knows they earned it...
amIright?

Why doesn't everyone get a regimental shoulder cord as well?
Why should the Infantry be the only group of folks sporting a cool looking rope on their uniform?

It's really a confusing message being sent - in a profession that relies on uniformity as the cornerstone of its very existencial success - the US Army is in an all out sprint to embrace and encourage individualism.  
In a unit that frequently bemoans the evils of the "everyone gets a trophy" cultural mindset - we go out of our way to make sure everyone gets a beret or a tab or a combat badge so they can feel "validated"



...so glad I am retired and no longer required to play along with the shit show that is continuously "transitioning" from a uniformed force into a costumed enterprise. 


Say that out loud three times and see what it does to your ears -  "enterprise"
It isnt a unit or a command anymore.
It is an "enterprise" now

Enterprise..................
.....................Enterprise
.....................Enterprise


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## Brill (Nov 18, 2019)

Box said:


> ...so glad I am retired and no longer required to play along with the shit show that is continuously "transitioning" from a uniformed force into a costumed enterprise.
> 
> Say that out loud three times and see what it does to your ears -  "enterprise"
> It isnt a unit or a command anymore.
> ...



You appear to now be ready to transition to Federal service! All I’m going to need you to do is change your party affiliation on your voter registration card.

The IC is now an enterprise and agencies are now on campuses: compounds had scary connotations.


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## “The Old Man” (Nov 18, 2019)

I distinctly remember having buds in AIT. Who were NG SF and wore the “candy flash”. They had already been to jump school. That was 1980 if memory serves. 
My enlistment option was SF (H4) so I got to wear the unit patch. But I did not wear the beret. Because I was not assigned to a group. 
Just my useless .02.


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## BloodStripe (Nov 19, 2019)

The CSO's, Recon, Riggers, Air Crew, and pilot Marines  won't agree with this, but I'm all for removing all devices from Marine Corps uniforms.


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## DA SWO (Nov 19, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> The CSO's, Recon, Riggers, Air Crew, and pilot Marines  won't agree with this, but I'm all for removing all devices from Marine Corps uniforms.


Why?

Guys who've done more then the minimum should be recognized.


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## Johca (Nov 19, 2019)

So the standard is a robust and vigorous PT test?  As mission roles and actual capability utilization purpose differ among types of units and even among the career MOSs being connected to unit of assignment what is the common denominator human performance and human factors minimums for determining being there doing more than the minimums?

History of the Army's Black Beret


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## Devildoc (Nov 19, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> Why?
> 
> Guys who've done more then the minimum should be recognized.



It's the culture of the corps: you are already special; nothing should make you 'more' special.

My father, retired Marine, went to Ranger school.  He also graduated first in his class from an Army intel school, the first Marine to do so.  These are buried in his DD214; otherwise, you'd never know.


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## Brill (Nov 19, 2019)

Devildoc said:


> It's the culture of the corps: you are already special; nothing should make you 'more' special.
> 
> My father, retired Marine, went to Ranger school.  He also graduated first in his class from an Army intel school, the first Marine to do so.  These are buried in his DD214; otherwise, you'd never know.



Marines with gold jump wings and dive bubble kinda stand out...especially in Nerdistan.

amiright @Teufel ?


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## CryptoLingUSMC (Nov 19, 2019)

.


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## Devildoc (Nov 19, 2019)

CryptoLingUSMC said:


> I find all these distinctive uniform items and devices to be useful in determining who is a confident and capable professional versus who is insecure about their abilities and/or experience. The most impressive CSO's and Recon guys I've worked with never gave a shit about the bling and wouldn't wear any of it unless forcefully ordered to do so. One wouldn't even wear his Silver Star. Another went so far as to refuse to wear his MCMAP black belt and wore a tan belt instead.
> 
> My son is in 4th Force and in awe of the Gunny in charge of training. The guy is apparently quite a legend. He sat across from my son at the MC Ball a couple weeks ago and an officer tried to scold the Gunny for not wearing his wings and bubble. The Gunny stared him down and said he didn't give a fuck about that shit. Conversely, there's a CSO drilling in my son's unit who never goes anywhere without his Raider insignia. The Recon Marines think he's an ass. He's also fat and barely passed his CFT last week.
> 
> I'm glad my son is figuring out early that the more special you need people to believe you are, the less special you probably are.



The army takes its lineage and history very seriously.  I think the Marines do, too, just differently.  I always give our army brethren grief about all of their bling, but at the end of the day I think it's pretty cool, in the history associated with it is pretty cool.

Me, I usually wore my top 3 ribbons as prescribed by regs, rarely wore my FMF warfare device or any other device.


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## BloodStripe (Nov 19, 2019)

DA SWO said:


> Why?
> 
> Guys who've done more then the minimum should be recognized.



Just because you are [insert title here] doesn't make you special. This is how everyone ends up with a beret anyways because someone is butthurt they dont have XYZ.


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## Hillclimb (Nov 20, 2019)

I'd abolish the CSO device if it were up to me.

To this day i have no idea who drew up the 5 choices i had to vote on. Combat camera/PAO for all I know. All of which had no Raider skull in it, so it made no difference to me either way. I just got tired of dealing with the confrontation of.. "why arent you wearing your stripper chicken?"


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## Hillclimb (Nov 20, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> Just because you are [insert title here] doesn't make you special. This is how everyone ends up with a beret anyways because someone is butthurt they dont have XYZ.



Tell that to every Marine ever. I still meet SgtMajs that think theres nothing specialized about a CSO, and that any Marine could come in out of the fleet and do this job 😂😂😂 because they're Marines! They possess JJDIDTIEBUCKLE, they can do anything. Errrrrr.

I guess we can get rid of Assessment and Selection then.


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## BloodStripe (Nov 20, 2019)

Specialized is different from special.


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## DZ (Nov 20, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> Specialized is different from special.


Yeah, don't you guys know that every Marine is the equivalent of an Army Ranger??


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## BloodStripe (Nov 20, 2019)

So you're saying that by wearing a hat or a pin makes you a better warrior as much as adding a sticker to a car gives it an extra 10 HP?


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## Marauder06 (Nov 20, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> So you're saying that by wearing a hat or a pin makes you a better warrior as much as* adding a sticker to a car gives it an extra 10 HP*?



Man I hope that applies to Jeeps.  But can I have MPG instead of HP??  Please?  ;)


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## Gunz (Nov 20, 2019)

DZ said:


> Yeah, don't you guys know that every Marine is the equivalent of an Army Ranger??



Decidedly not, obviously. Whoever says that is full of it. Rangers have special operation skill sets to match their special mission requirements. But on the battlefield, where everything counts, Marine Infantry is proven in blood...and as good or better than the best fighting soldiers in the world. Our history attests to that. Our honored dead attest to that.


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## BloodStripe (Nov 20, 2019)

Marauder06 said:


> Man I hope that applies to Jeeps.  But can I have MPH instead of HP??  Please?  ;)


I award you fifteen extra torque.


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## AWP (Nov 20, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> So you're saying that by wearing a hat or a pin makes you a better warrior as much as adding a sticker to a car gives it an extra 10 HP?



I'm such a nerd I read that as hit points.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 20, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> I award you fifteen extra torque.


Crap.  I meant MPG.  I've got a built Rubicon so I get plenty of torque... but gas mileage is another issue.


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## Teufel (Nov 20, 2019)

lindy said:


> Marines with gold jump wings and dive bubble kinda stand out...especially in Nerdistan.
> 
> amiright @Teufel ?


It isn’t super common, no. I wear my badges because it helps me build instant credibility with the SOCOM partners we frequently engage with.


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## Teufel (Nov 20, 2019)

CryptoLingUSMC said:


> I find all these distinctive uniform items and devices to be useful in determining who is a confident and capable professional versus who is insecure about their abilities and/or experience. The most impressive CSO's and Recon guys I've worked with never gave a shit about the bling and wouldn't wear any of it unless forcefully ordered to do so. One wouldn't even wear his Silver Star. Another went so far as to refuse to wear his MCMAP black belt and wore a tan belt instead.
> 
> My son is in 4th Force and in awe of the Gunny in charge of training. The guy is apparently quite a legend. He sat across from my son at the MC Ball a couple weeks ago and an officer tried to scold the Gunny for not wearing his wings and bubble. The Gunny stared him down and said he didn't give a fuck about that shit. Conversely, there's a CSO drilling in my son's unit who never goes anywhere without his Raider insignia. The Recon Marines think he's an ass. He's also fat and barely passed his CFT last week.
> 
> I'm glad my son is figuring out early that the more special you need people to believe you are, the less special you probably are.


There is a big difference between not wearing badges in cammies and dress blues. I’ve never seen a Recon Marine not wear their badges on a dress uniform. It doesn’t make sense.


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## DZ (Nov 21, 2019)

Gunz said:


> Decidedly not, obviously. Whoever says that is full of it. Rangers have special operation skill sets to match their special mission requirements. But on the battlefield, where everything counts, Marine Infantry is proven in blood...and as good or better than the best fighting soldiers in the world. Our history attests to that. Our honored dead attest to that.


I have a lot of respect for the Marine Corps. I think that they do a better job than the Army at instilling a warrior mindset in boot camp. And I agree with your statement about Marine Infantry.

What I do not agree with is this notion that every Marine is "Special". It's funny the Army gets made fun of by Marines for all of our stupid berets and devices, saying we all want to be special, then they'll turn around and say "every Marine is Special" as if that isn't any less retarded sounding. If everyone is special then no one is. 

There are elite and special Marines in the Marine Corps just like every branch, but it is not all of them.



BloodStripe said:


> So you're saying that by wearing a hat or a pin makes you a better warrior as much as adding a sticker to a car gives it an extra 10 HP?


Lol hell yeah.. 
If you took my cool hat and tab away but I still had the same job, I wouldn't care much, and I think most guys in SOF are the same way. I barely need two hands to count the times I've worn a regular uniform anyways.


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## BloodStripe (Nov 21, 2019)

I never said Marines are special. And I certainly agree that not all Marines are specialized.


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## DZ (Nov 21, 2019)

BloodStripe said:


> I never said Marines are special. And I certainly agree that not all Marines are specialized.


My comment wasn't directed at anyone on the board, but at the attitude I hear from Marines a lot, ie the reason the Marines didn't join SOCOM to begin with. "All Marines are special already."


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## BloodStripe (Nov 21, 2019)

Because we are.  🤪


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 21, 2019)

DZ said:


> but at the attitude I hear from Marines a lot, ie the reason the Marines didn't join SOCOM to begin with. "All Marines are special already."




I think that perception ties into this:


DZ said:


> I think that they do a better job than the Army at instilling a warrior mindset in boot camp.


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## Gunz (Nov 21, 2019)

DZ said:


> What I do not agree with is this notion that every Marine is "Special".



Yeah, I don't agree with that, either...by a long shot. Correct me if I'm wrong, but the "special" in special operations pertains to the types of missions those unit are tasked with. Aside from Recon, Raiders and Scout/Snipers, the rank and file infantry are generally--with some exceptions for expediency or unique circumstances--confined to conventional operations.

I've met my share of Marines who are anything but "special."


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## Teufel (Nov 21, 2019)

The Marine Corps didn’t want to join SOCOM because the service didn’t want to give up capabilities, resources, and manpower to an organization outside the naval forces. We are a small service and resource taxes like MARSOC, Marine Security Guards, and MARFORCYBER cut us deep.

@DZ you, or SOCOM for that matter, were never the target for that propaganda. I believe that audience has always resides inside our own service. We need our Marines, especially our combat support career fields, to believe they are ‘special’ and strive to live up to that standard. It’s part of what defines us as a service.


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## Brill (Nov 21, 2019)

Teufel said:


> The Marine Corps didn’t want to join SOCOM because *the service didn’t want to give up capabilities, resources, and manpower to an organization outside the naval forces.* We are a small service and resource taxes like MARSOC, Marine Security Guards, and MARFORCYBER cut us deep.



I attended a conference where SOCS-F manpower and training were discussed and I think the entire audience was shocked how small the force actually is.  From my experience, the SOCS-F are on par (knowledge, skills, and abilities) with another unnamed unit.

I’d like to see some of the MSOTs debrief their recent CENTCOM experience with Agency historians to preserve the facts.


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## Devildoc (Nov 21, 2019)

Marines_ are_ special.  Have you not seen Motor-T?  They are...._very _special.  Not in a good-special kinda way.


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## Devildoc (Nov 21, 2019)

DZ said:


> My comment wasn't directed at anyone on the board, but at the attitude I hear from Marines a lot, ie the reason the Marines didn't join SOCOM to begin with. "All Marines are special already."



Yes, you hear that, because that's what they want you to believe.  They say it so often, they start buying into it, too.


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## Topkick (Sep 5, 2022)

Ooh-Rah said:


> And there is a brown one too?
> 
> Berets of the United States Army - Wikipedia
> 
> ...


I'm reposting this oldie because I think its even more relevent. I agree, IMO if you are not Special Operations Forces (Ranger, SF) you dont need a special headgear. It worked fine when conventional soldiers just rocked their PCs. The military should not be handing out trophies to everyone.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 5, 2022)

Topkick said:


> I'm reposting this oldie because I think its even more relevent. I agree, IMO if you are not Special Operations Forces (Ranger, SF) you dont need a special headgear. It worked fine when conventional soldiers just rocked their PCs. The military should not be handing out trophies to everyone.


I'm not arguing about the special headgear aspect, but there is a whole lot more to SOF than just SF and the Ranger Regiment, even in just the Army.

Generic ARSOF already have special headgear--the maroon beret, which they share with the conventional airborne forces.


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## Topkick (Sep 5, 2022)

Sure but they can do those same jobs in a patrol cap, right? Sir, its just my opinion but I hated wearing that ridiculous head condom.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 5, 2022)

Topkick said:


> Sure but they can do those same jobs in a patrol cap, right? Sir, its just my opinion but I hated wearing that ridiculous head condom.


I concur.  The beret is the second-most useless piece of headgear in the Army, after the garrison cap.  But if it's done right, it at least looks cool.

I don't know why the Army is still screwing around with the black beret as wear for the general purpose force.  We ***ALL*** hate it.  Needless inconvenience and expense.  Plus, for those of us who are old enough to remember when it was fielded, simmering resentment.


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## Topkick (Sep 5, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> Plus, for those of us who are old enough to remember when it was fielded, simmering resentment


I was there. Never understood the dumbfuckery of that decision.


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## Gunz (Sep 5, 2022)

Topkick said:


> I was there. Never understood the dumbfuckery of that decision.



It was authorized by Shinseki prior to the enlistment surge post 9/11 so I’m betting recruitment had something to do with it. I remember thinking it was a bullshit move.


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## Topkick (Sep 5, 2022)

Gunz said:


> It was authorized by Shinseki prior to the enlistment surge post 9/11 so I’m betting recruitment had something to do with it. I remember thinking it was a bullshit move.



Yeah, I remember Shinseki basically saying he wanted everyone to feel special but most of the Army down to the lowest Private didn't like wearing the beret and especially taking the black beret from the Rangers. So at least Gen. Shinseki managed to unite us all on something.


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## AWP (Sep 5, 2022)

The Army is so fucking broken we're agreeing with Cav Scouts. The Cav! Like...what the... fuck, c'mon Army, just...fucking Cav Scouts?

The world is so broken we're agreeing with the Cav? Stetson and spur wearing (at least they have a historical reason, I'll grant them that) "we're as good as the infantry" soldiers?

We deserve to be beaten by syrup snorting Canadian soldiers who smell like a moose's vagina.

OVER BERETS!


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## Topkick (Sep 5, 2022)

As good as? Said no Cav Scout ever....


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## RackMaster (Sep 5, 2022)

AWP said:


> The Army is so fucking broken we're agreeing with Cav Scouts. The Cav! Like...what the... fuck, c'mon Army, just...fucking Cav Scouts?
> 
> The world is so broken we're agreeing with the Cav? Stetson and spur wearing (at least they have a historical reason, I'll grant them that) "we're as good as the infantry" soldiers?
> 
> ...



Don't forget the Canadian's will be wearing berets that are formed and fit, way better.


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## Gunz (Sep 6, 2022)

RackMaster said:


> Don't forget the Canadian's will be wearing berets that are formed and fit, way better.



You should wear beaver hats.


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## Devildoc (Sep 6, 2022)

Gunz said:


> You should wear beaver hats.





I like it.


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## RackMaster (Sep 6, 2022)

Gunz said:


> You should wear beaver hats.



We have a Yukon Cap that's for our winter dress uniforms but I've never seen them worn.  I think it's mostly a Navy thing. I should see if I can get one.  I'd wear it in the winter.


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## “The Old Man” (Sep 6, 2022)

RackMaster said:


> We have a Yukon Cap that's for our winter dress uniforms but I've never seen them worn.  I think it's mostly a Navy thing. I should see if I can get one.  I'd wear it in the winter.
> 
> View attachment 40496


Shit, I would wear that anytime! Looks nice and comfortable. Plus I love interesting headwear👍


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## RackMaster (Sep 6, 2022)

“The Old Man” said:


> Shit, I would wear that anytime! Looks nice and comfortable. Plus I love interesting headwear👍



If I was issued one, I'd wear it just to annoy the CoC.  We were issued these but I only ever wore it sleeping because I hated keeping my head in my bivy.


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## Marauder06 (Sep 6, 2022)

RackMaster said:


> If I was issued one, I'd wear it just to annoy the CoC.  We were issued these but I only ever wore it sleeping because I hated keeping my head in my bivy.
> 
> View attachment 40497


We had a big Russian-cap looking thing when I was in 2ID.  IIRC we had to wear it for PT (but we have the black watch cap??) but otherwise were not allowed to wear it unless we were in the big brown bear suit, which nobody wore.  That was a shame because it sure would have been useful in the motor pool during those cold Korean winters...


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## JedisonsDad (Sep 14, 2022)

RackMaster said:


> If I was issued one, I'd wear it just to annoy the CoC.  We were issued these but I only ever wore it sleeping because I hated keeping my head in my bivy.
> 
> View attachment 40497


Doesn’t Han Solo wear that on Hoth?


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