# Military Fitness Brainstorming



## Etype (Jun 24, 2012)

This is something that takes place in almost every thread in this section. I've taken the last three weeks off from working out and am dreading the restart DOMs.  In that time, I've been assessing all of the programs I've used and the pros and cons of each.  I was doing my own brand of Westside/Crossfit up until my break, but wasn't as happy with that as I thought I'd be.  I've read just about every piece of open source info from Crossfit sources, Louie Simmons, EliteFTS, James Fitzgerald, and Mark Twight- I think they are all awesome, and that there is something to be gained from each.  I'm going to continue programming my own workouts and see what I come up with as far as scheduling, protocols, etc.  I figured I would put some of my thoughts down in bullet format and that others would probably want to do the same.

IMO, Louie Simmons is the end all authority for strength.  He knows more than anyone else on the matter and has decades of research on hundreds of athletes to prove it.  I think the repetition method and max effort method are the two most relevant strength approaches for us.  The dynamic method, I feel, has more application to sport and powerlifting itself- and that there's just not enough room in a schedule to include it and still work in the other necessarily aspects.
An interesting point Louie harps on is to not use barbells for condition.  He disagrees with high rep barbell exercises in the name of metabolic conditioning, arguing that for pro athletes and powerlifters it's just too risky- time is money and no one wants to deal with the minor back/hip/hamstring strains.  He argues that conditioning implements like sleds, battling ropes, jump ropes, weighted carries, etc should be used.
I used to discount the quarterly low back strain or shoulder pain as part of the game, but I'm starting to realize that the forced deload I'm put through isn't something I should _have _to deal with.  I'm never severely injured, just enough to make me work around said injury for a week or so.


Frequency/Schedule- Something I like about Westside is that it's a weekly split.  I think Mon/Tues/Thurs/Fri would be ideal.  It keeps the weekends open, and gives you the option of active recovery or a complete rest day on Wednesday.
Weekly single mode conditioning- The thing you hear most from folks is that their program lacks running or swimming.  Planning for a weekly long swim, run, or ruck wouldn't be a bad idea- especially if you're training for selection or a school.  If you want extra endurance work, you could do one long event, and one multi modal conditioning event of Crossfit variety.
Weekly workout with body armor or ruck- It could be a ruck, a body armor, run, or just a conditioning workout in body armor or with a ruck on.  Flipping a tire, swinging a hammer, or doing pull ups with a ruck or body armor on isn't too far off from things you'll have to do on a deployment or in selection.
More to follow.


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## Paul215 (Jun 24, 2012)

Can't wait to see where this thread goes. Lately I've been doing some programming put out by one of the schools I will be attending but typically I follow something similar where I will stick to some type of strength in the morning with conditioning later in the day. Really good point on wearing a ruck, makes life completely different haha


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## reed11b (Jun 24, 2012)

Not a huge fan of basing the work-out routine around weight lifting. Also can the see the need for more conditioning to be programmed in. Those are my thoughts, probably worth what you paid for them.
Reed


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## CDG (Jun 24, 2012)

Etype said:


> This is something that takes place in almost every thread in this section. I've taken the last three weeks off from working out and am dreading the restart DOMs. In that time, I've been assessing all of the programs I've used and the pros and cons of each. I was doing my own brand of Westside/Crossfit up until my break, but wasn't as happy with that as I thought I'd be. I've read just about every piece of open source info from Crossfit sources, Louie Simmons, EliteFTS, James Fitzgerald, and Mark Twight- I think they are all awesome, and that there is something to be gained from each. I'm going to continue programming my own workouts and see what I come up with as far as scheduling, protocols, etc. I figured I would put some of my thoughts down in bullet format and that others would probably want to do the same.
> 
> IMO, Louie Simmons is the end all authority for strength. He knows more than anyone else on the matter and has decades of research on hundreds of athletes to prove it. I think the repetition method and max effort method are the two most relevant strength approaches for us. The dynamic method, I feel, has more application to sport and powerlifting itself- and that there's just not enough room in a schedule to include it and still work in the other necessarily aspects.
> An interesting point Louie harps on is to not use barbells for condition. He disagrees with high rep barbell exercises in the name of metabolic conditioning, arguing that for pro athletes and powerlifters it's just too risky- time is money and no one wants to deal with the minor back/hip/hamstring strains. He argues that conditioning implements like sleds, battling ropes, jump ropes, weighted carries, etc should be used.
> ...


 
Good shit dude.  I would add that those prepping for a Selection course have other unique needs that many programs do not adequately address.  One of the things I gained from my time doing MA was the ability to recover from a 60-90 minute beatdown and come back and do it again the next day.  SOFWODs addresses this as well, and does it in a manner that allows for a higher overall intensity level, IMO.  Maybe not everyone needs this training, but I know I benefitted greatly from it.  CF trains you to be able to go long once and do well.  I do not feel it trains you to go long and then come back again the next day and go as long or longer.  From what many of you have said, CF-style training is great for the "operators".  It would seem based on those comments that SOF mission fitness differs quite a bit from SOF Selection fitness.  Reason would then dictate that those already in a SOF unit require a different training protocol than those prepping for a Selection.


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## CDG (Jun 24, 2012)

reed11b said:


> Not a huge fan of basing the work-out routine around weight lifting.
> Reed


 
  Are you saying you disagree with basing conditioning around strength work?  Or are you saying that you disagree with the inclusion of any weightlifting?


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## Etype (Jun 24, 2012)

Alright, this has been consuming my thoughts so I have to type this out or I'll never fall asleep.  I'm going to give this a no BS 2 month trial run to see what happens.  Actually doing it will expose any weaknesses or shortcomings. 

4 Days a week, M-T-T-F, Wednesday is optional for recovery work.
3 Protocols-


Strength- Basically a Westside style max effort day complete with repetition method assistance work.  I'll alternate squat/DL and press days.
Single Mode Endurance- Run, ruck, row, or swim.
Crossfit Style Conditioning-  I'm going to use the MGW method to randomize it.


I'll go through each training protocol in order- with 4 workout days in the week, each week will be different.
I'm going to exclude everything that has historically cause injury.   If I use barbells in conditioning workouts, I'm going to front load it in the circuit and separate it with prescribed breaks James Fitzgerald style.  No high rep box jumps, no sumo deadlift high pulls, no kipping pull ups.  
I'm also going to cut back on the oly lifting.  It's something that's been disputed by a lot of folks who are smarter than me.  If it comes into question, there has to be some efficacy to the argument.  Here's how I feel about it- you can take a long time practicing it and getting good at it, or you can spend that time doing box jumps, squats, OHPs, etc and reap the benefits of actually exercising and not practicing exercising.  
I'm going to start out tomorrow with a strength day.  Probably box squats, then GHD sit ups and GHRs.


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## F.CASTLE (Jun 24, 2012)

Good notes. I'm looking forward to reading about your results.


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## Paul215 (Jun 25, 2012)

Will you be keeping a log of all the training here?


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## Invictus (Jun 25, 2012)

Etype said:


> This is something that takes place in almost every thread in this section. I've taken the last three weeks off from working out and am dreading the restart DOMs.


I'm sure through your reading you've come across the repeated bout effect- but for anyone else just starting a new training regimen or coming back from an extended time off, when your body is not used to the stress the DOMs will be much greater than normal. It's often a good idea for the first sessions to be lighter in weight and intensity.


Etype said:


> I'm going to exclude everything that has historically cause injury. If I use barbells in conditioning workouts, I'm going to front load it in the circuit and separate it with prescribed breaks James Fitzgerald style. No high rep box jumps, no sumo deadlift high pulls, no kipping pull ups.


Big fan of this section in particular. Looking forward to your training results and the rest of this thread.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jun 25, 2012)

Looking forward to following this as well.  I had been thinking about putting up my own training log once I start 5/3/1.  I like to be able to see the progress I'm making.  
Good shit, as always, Etype.  Can't wait to see this get started.


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## Sendero (Jun 25, 2012)

Great posts Etype, and I look forward to following the progression.


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## Brill (Jun 25, 2012)

How about some references...cheat sheet or something.  I don't understand the words coming out of your...keyboard.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jun 25, 2012)

lindy said:


> How about some references...cheat sheet or something. I don't understand the words coming out of your...keyboard.


 
I'll translate...
Etype: "Not only am I bigger, stronger, and faster but I'm also smarter.  I'll be combining several different workout styles to maximize my training and ultimately take over the entire universe.  Pussies need not apply."


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## Sendero (Jun 25, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Pussies need not apply."


 
Well played.


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## Impulse45 (Jun 26, 2012)

You probably have already thought of this as you posted the article, but since reading "The Holy Grail in Speed Training" by Barry Ross, I've been doing an explosive movement after the work sets of my main lifts. Ross only specifically mentions plyos after deadlifting, but I took the general idea and paired bench with plyo-pushups and box jumps with squats as well. I also decided to use broad jumps for deadlifting. I figure you could at least retain a DE element to your training without having to dedicate time in a training session specifically for DE work. I follow 5/3/1 and started doing this for the two cycles ago and I feel I have improved my explosiveness without dedicating time to DE moments like speed bench and speed squatting. My numbers on my DL, squat, and bench have continued to improve as well so it certainly hasn't had a derogatory effect on my training. My Push Press stalled out but I attribute that to me dropping a few lbs. I must inform you that my numbers on the big 3 or the big 4 according to Wendler's programming are lower than yours so you are lifting at a higher level than me.


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## Etype (Jun 27, 2012)

I think Ross stumbled onto an inkling of what Louie Simmons is and has been exploring in depth for a long time.  The max effort and dynamic effort method are equaling complimenting parts and are relevant to both explosiveness and maximal strength.

Push press is sort of a weird measure, IMO.  It's a combination of squat lockout, OHP lockout, and midline stability.  I'd be more worried about OHP than push press.

For those of you interested in Ross's article, I happened to have it on my hard drive- see attached.



Some more things I've been thinking of-

Throwing- 
A couple examples of what I've seen-
I used to workout with a crusty (now retired) former tier 1 turned back to SF guy- but don't get it wrong, he could still get down with the best of them.  He like to do a workout that consisted solely of throwing a 20# dumbbell.  He'd go out to Pike Field, put 30 minutes on the clock, and just throw it like a shot put alternating hands.  It was a smoker, legs, back, shoulders, abs, arms.  
A WO I deployed with liked to do a similar workout but used a medicine ball.  He would either throw it backward over his head with both arms, or forward like a chest pass.  He did about the same way, he'd either pick an arbitrary amount of time (20-30 minutes), or just do it until he was smoked.

This is a great austere environment type workout.  You could use anything- med ball, dumbbell, kettle bell, a big rock, an old vehicle part- anything that's heavy.
Since there is no eccentric (lower phase), you don't get very sore from these types of workouts.  It's a good feeling to be able to really crush yourself one day, and wake up feeling pretty good the next.  You will, however, notice the metabolic depletion in the ATP/CP and anaerobic ranges since it's pretty demanding.  Probably a good workout to follow up with a run, swim, or row.
I really don't see much throwing outside of the strongman and field.  I think Crossfit might pull out something with a med ball every once in a while.  The catching phase of wall balls make it dissimilar because it adds an eccentric element.

 A largely unexploited aspect of fitness, maybe because there's not much there to gain.


I did my second day on the self-programming today.  I did Cindy with 2 dead hang pull ups in place of the 5 kipping.  I'm skipping the 1 workout in kit/ruck this week since I'm spending about 5 hours a day everyday on the range this week- that itself is smoking me.  Next up is an "monostructural" day as CF likes to call it (they are really good at coming with their own marketable terms), so I'll probably run 5 miles tomorrow.


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## CDG (Jun 27, 2012)

Have you looked into any of Dan John's stuff?


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## Etype (Jun 27, 2012)

Yes, he trains more _for _throwing, by _throwing_.  That, and he puts a lot of his eggs into the olympic lifting basket, which Louie Simmons et al have proved to be inferior.


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## Impulse45 (Jun 28, 2012)

I use push press instead of strict OHP because the initial portion of pushing a barbell up from it being racked across my shoulders until it gets to about nose or eye level bothers my shoulders. The leg drive with the push press allows me to bypass this uncomfortable portion and still get most of the benefits of driving a heavy weight overhead and having to stabilize it. That was my theory anyway. I get that it isn't ideal for a heavy/maximal effort lift. I could do a partial ROM OHP from a rack with the pins set up at about eye level, but I have been traveling quite a bit the over the my last few cycles and some gyms that I lifted in during a cycle did not have power racks so I had to clean it from the floor or unrack the barbell from an incline bench. I also do strict OHP using dumbbells with my palms facing each other as an assistance lift on bench day as a neutral grip does not bother my shoulders. If I lifted at  a gym with a swiss bar I would most likely switch back to using strict OHP for a main lift or rotate between the two.

Are you now only dedicating two days, 1 upper and 1 lower, a week toward strength?


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## is friday (Jun 28, 2012)

Etype said:


> Everything thus far...


Would you welcome the rest of us to post our routines and results, Etype? I'm trying to get myself whipped into shape for Basic Recon Course mid-August. I have about 5 weeks left. I finished physical therapy 2 weeks ago for my dislocated shoulder. My gouge might be useful for data comparison if I end up being physically prepared for BRC despite having a short window.


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## Etype (Jun 28, 2012)

is friday said:


> Would you welcome the rest of us to post our routines and results, Etype?


Go crazy.  I originally wanted to use this thread to do a little free writing/free thinking on how to structure fitness for military demands, and in the case of a few hours I decided to start applying some of my ideas.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 4, 2012)

I've created a spreadsheet for my first 4 weeks of 5/3/1...  I'm that guy.


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## Etype (Jul 5, 2012)

Some notes from today's workout-

Running with body armor on = hard
Double unders with body armor on = harder
Muscle ups with body armor = hardest


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 5, 2012)

Etype said:


> Some notes from today's workout-
> 
> Running with body armor on = hard OK, I hate running, but I've done it with a weight vest before...
> Double unders with body armor on = harder  I'm starting to hate YOU now...
> Muscle ups with body armor = hardest  I'm just gonna go sulk in this corner over here now...


 

Saw a guy doing muscle ups in the gym today.  Still amazes me to see people do them.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 6, 2012)

First week of 5/3/1 is over. Still a tough mental transition from the high intensity MA & SOFWOD workouts to this. I essentially go to the gym, knock out 3 sets of one exercise and leave. I'm going to start implementing some more exercises on each day though.
Dips on Bench press day
Pull ups on Dead lift day
Rotator cuff/rear deltoid movements on OH shoulder press day
I also do core work on M/W/F and I'll be running and/or swimming on Th/Sat.
I was surprised that I was able to get more reps on the 3rd sets of my upper body movements vice my lower body movements. Maybe due to the lighter weights and the fact that the bench & shoulder presses are not as much of a full body movement as the DL and squat are. Anyhow, here is the spreadsheet I made for my first 4 weeks. I exported it as a PDF so that I could upload it here.
Feel free to nit pick!


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## CDG (Jul 6, 2012)

Yeah, 5/3/1 is intended to have assistance work at a minimum and in your case I would add some conditioning too. When I was doing 5/3/1, I would do a main lift, 1-2 assistance exercises, and then a short conditioning workout 3 days a week, 2 days of just conditioning, and then 2 rest days following a 2 on, 1 off, 3 on, 1 off schedule.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 6, 2012)

Easy killer, you're going to cause my brain to explode.  Reading the article on T-nation about 5/3/1, Wendler said to keep the assistance lifts to an absolute minimum.  The only assistance work I'll be doing is body weight so I don't foresee there being any issues.  The rotator cuff/rear deltoid stuff is pre-hab and VERY light weight with the focus more on ROM.  I still gotta get my sweat on a few days a week, so I'll probably incorporate SOFWOD calisthenic stuff into my running/swimming on the days I do it.


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## CDG (Jul 6, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Easy killer, you're going to cause my brain to explode. Reading the article on T-nation about 5/3/1, Wendler said to keep the assistance lifts to an absolute minimum. The only assistance work I'll be doing is body weight so I don't foresee there being any issues. The rotator cuff/rear deltoid stuff is pre-hab and VERY light weight with the focus more on ROM. I still gotta get my sweat on a few days a week, so I'll probably incorporate SOFWOD calisthenic stuff into my running/swimming on the days I do it.


 
I think you are misinterpreting what Wendler is saying.  Assistance work is not the point of the session, but it is still an important piece of it.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 6, 2012)

Roger.  I went back and re-read the parts of the article about assistance work and you're right.  I misread the "if you don't have a good reason for xyz" part.  Thanks for pointing that out!


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## Impulse45 (Jul 8, 2012)

I personally super-set my 2 or 3 assistance lifts after the main lift. It has a metabolic effect and gets me out of the gym faster. If you want to get your sweat on on lifting days it might be up your alley. I typically use weights that are at least pretty close to what I would normally use if I wasn't super-setting and I take about 30-45 seconds between lifts.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 11, 2012)

How do you find a percentage when running?  I was doing the SOFWOD for today and it was to run 4x1 mile repeats @ 60%, 70%, 80% & 90% effort.  Is there some math involved since you'd be adding time to lower your percentage?  Or is it in relation to the feeling you have of losing your lunch?  
If you run an 8 minute mile (480 seconds) is 60% effort really an 11:12 mile (672 seconds; 480 x 1.4 [.4 being the difference of 1 - .6])??  I don't think the math can be that easy, so is there some formula or is it just a feel?
Today I did:
8:25
7:52
7:24
Balls out for me would probably be 4 laps in just under 7 minutes.


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## Invictus (Jul 11, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> How do you find a percentage when running? I was doing the SOFWOD for today and it was to run 4x1 mile repeats @ 60%, 70%, 80% & 90% effort. Is there some math involved since you'd be adding time to lower your percentage? Or is it in relation to the feeling you have of losing your lunch?
> If you run an 8 minute mile (480 seconds) is 60% effort really an 11:12 mile (672 seconds; 480 x 1.4 [.4 being the difference of 1 - .6])?? I don't think the math can be that easy, so is there some formula or is it just a feel?
> Today I did:
> 8:25
> ...


Typically, percentages of running (in my experience) are based on heart rate. There are _rough_ ways to estimate it without equipment.


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## CDG (Jul 12, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> How do you find a percentage when running? I was doing the SOFWOD for today and it was to run 4x1 mile repeats @ 60%, 70%, 80% & 90% effort. Is there some math involved since you'd be adding time to lower your percentage? Or is it in relation to the feeling you have of losing your lunch?
> If you run an 8 minute mile (480 seconds) is 60% effort really an 11:12 mile (672 seconds; 480 x 1.4 [.4 being the difference of 1 - .6])?? I don't think the math can be that easy, so is there some formula or is it just a feel?
> Today I did:
> 8:25
> ...


 
I just go off perceived effort.  Depending on a lot of factors, your 80% one day may be your 90% another.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 12, 2012)

I figured it would be more of a feeling thing.  Plus, as you do the 1 mile repeats, wouldn't your percentage of max effort decrease?  90% fresh is not the same as 90% after already running 3 miles.  My brain works/understands numbers better than feeling, so I was hoping there'd be some quick math.  C'ést la vie.
Invictus , how rough are the estimates and how easy are they to do on the track with noting but my iPod and a watch?


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## Invictus (Jul 13, 2012)

One thing you can do is borrow a HR monitor, or do a couple training sessions on a treadmill with a HR monitor and use actual numbers to generate a perceived exertion in your target heart rate ranges. After that, you are familiar with how each percentage feels and can hopefully recreate it. Otherwise, you can use something along the lines of at 60% I can speak fairly easily/slightly out of breath, 70% I have to catch my breath constantly while speaking, 80% I am incredibly strained to make conversation/nearly impossible, 90% is nearly balls to the wall. There are most likely better means, but I have not been exposed to them.

ETA: There are accurate equations for calculating target heart rates all over the internet. I have them saved on my computer/in textbooks too if you have trouble finding them.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 14, 2012)

So, did this SOFWOD today, without the DL and the sled work.

I had on a 25lb weight vest for the weighted cal work.  
My push ups I was able to do:
10-10
10-5-5
5-5-5-5
5-5-5-5

Sit ups I got unbroken
Chin ups were all
2-2-2

Flutter kicks were unbroken

My 200m runs were all 37-39 seconds
400m runs were 1:45 & 1:50
800m run was 4:03


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## Etype (Jul 14, 2012)

I've been on the range everyday for the last 4 weeks, so my legs and back have been pretty smoked. I thought about what I could as a good arm/upper body smoker to try to show them some love, so I came up with this
- 3 pull ups on the minute alternated pronated grip close, med, wide then sup grip close, med, wide
- 3 handstand push ups on the :30's
- Then 10 push ups on the minute, 10 band pull aparts on the :30 to failure.

Made it to 21 minutes and failed on handstand push ups. Then did 60 push ups, my shoulders were done. I think next time I am going to start out doing 5 of each, then when I fail I will bump down to 4, then 3, etc. My diet has been screwy and I've lost about 7 pounds in the last 2 weeks, I need to get it under control.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jul 25, 2012)

So evidently I run better/faster sans watch.  I guess I should try not being so bound by trying to meet ## time every 1/2 mile and focus more on feel.  Whodathunkit?


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 1, 2012)

76 minute Murph today.  
Both miles were run with a 25# weight vest.

31 Heroes on Saturday.


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## Etype (Aug 1, 2012)

Murph is a good one.  How are your kipping pull ups?  The thing that kills me on weighted kipping pulls is my grip going out and my lungs, I end up snapping my hips super hard to get the momentum and my grip becomes the single point of failure.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 1, 2012)

I wore the vest only for the runs.  All my pull ups were strict, but my grip is usually first to go despite what kind I'm doing.  
Squats were the hardest part.


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## Etype (Aug 1, 2012)

On Murph, Cindy, etc, I blast the pull ups and squats, the push ups start to get me and I usually split them up 7-3 or 6-4.  I stay down but pause and take a couple deep breaths.


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## Brill (Aug 2, 2012)

My team is doing the WODs at THOR3 in the AM (did their rope workout this morning) and then some kind of cardio in the PM (run, ruck, or swim) for up to 90 mins.  I'm missing on the water ops due to small cox...er...pox but row and bike until then finish the pool.

For an old guy, I like the low impact, body weight exercises since their easier on the joints.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 2, 2012)

Etype said:


> On Murph, Cindy, etc, I blast the pull ups and squats, the push ups start to get me and I usually split them up 7-3 or 6-4. I stay down but pause and take a couple deep breaths.


Pull ups I ended up having to break down to 3-2, squats 8-7, then 5-5-5.  Surprisingly the push ups were the only part I was able to do unbroken through the whole thing.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 16, 2012)

NEVER doing sprints in my minimal shoes again!


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## Poccington (Aug 16, 2012)

Etype said:


> Some notes from today's workout-
> 
> Running with body armor on = hard
> Double unders with body armor on = harder
> Muscle ups with body armor = hardest


 
I just read this post.

I now hate you.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 16, 2012)

I liked his hate!


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## Hills (Aug 17, 2012)

I figured this might be a good place to ask this question.

Are there any lifts/excercises you guys find are excessivly hard on the knees?
I ask this because although there is no pain my knees just don't feel all that healthy since I started MA and incorporated oly lifts into my training. (I also run 40 miles per week so it might be a cumulative effect)

Also, what are your favourite pre-hab/durability exercises, for the knees and elsewhere?


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 17, 2012)

MA kicked my dick in the dirt for the first 5-6 weeks.  You have to allow yourself to get used to that kind of programming.  If you're training for some kind of selection program, also check out SOFWODS.  It has a lot of calisthenic work that MA neglects badly.  

Can't go wrong with a foam roller.


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## Hills (Aug 17, 2012)

> kicked my dick in the dirt


 
I came for fitness advice, I left with a new favourite saying.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 17, 2012)

I gotta be good for something.


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## CDG (Aug 18, 2012)

Hills said:


> I figured this might be a good place to ask this question.
> 
> Are there any lifts/excercises you guys find are excessivly hard on the knees?
> I ask this because although there is no pain my knees just don't feel all that healthy since I started MA and incorporated oly lifts into my training. (I also run 40 miles per week so it might be a cumulative effect)
> ...


 
Why are you running 40 miles a week?  You just answered your own question about why your knees hurt.


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## Hills (Aug 18, 2012)

> Why are you running 40 miles a week? You just answered your own question about why your knees hurt.


 

I've been running 40miles a week for a year, never had issues before. I was just wondering if its a common problem for people starting MA or similar programs.


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## Etype (Aug 18, 2012)

Probably the only time I've covered 40 miles in one week was when I was in selection.


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## CDG (Aug 18, 2012)

Hills said:


> I've been running 40miles a week for a year, never had issues before. I was just wondering if its a common problem for people starting MA or similar programs.


 
It's likely not the MA program that's hurting your knees.  It could be, if your technique is off and most of your weight is constantly on your toes/balls of your feet when you squat.  However, Occam's razor suggests that the 40 miles a week of running is where you should look first.  You claimed to also ruck quite a bit.  How many miles do you ruck per week, and with what kind of weight?


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## Hills (Aug 18, 2012)

Cheers for asking CDG.

Every other weekend I spend saturday morning through to sunday night on Dartmoor, usually with 60-100lbs, although the weight has been known to fluctuate mid yomp :-/. If for some reason I can't go on the moor I usually do a fairly fast (sub 2hours) 8 miler with 40-60lbs (on grass). This has only been regular for the last couple months though.

Do you know of any good exercises/durability work that will help protect my knees? It's by no means a consistent problem, I've just noticed my joints aren't 100% since I started MA. I think your theory about me having clusterfuck form on the oly lifts may be correct as I've never had any formal coaching. Squats are unlikely to be the issue though as I've been squatting for a year with no problems.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 18, 2012)

Agree with the above.  You're not going to do anyone any good if you break yourself.


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## CDG (Aug 18, 2012)

Hills said:


> Cheers for asking CDG.
> 
> Every other weekend I spend saturday morning through to sunday night on Dartmoor, usually with 60-100lbs, although the weight has been known to fluctuate mid yomp :-/. If for some reason I can't go on the moor I usually do a fairly fast (sub 2hours) 8 miler with 40-60lbs (on grass). This has only been regular for the last couple months though.
> 
> Do you know of any good exercises/durability work that will help protect my knees? It's by no means a consistent problem, I've just noticed my joints aren't 100% since I started MA. I think your theory about me having clusterfuck form on the oly lifts may be correct as I've never had any formal coaching. Squats are unlikely to be the issue though as I've been squatting for a year with no problems.


 
You have been running 40 miles a week for a year?  How long have you been doing bi-monthly overnight rucks with 60-100#?  How long ago did you start MA?


----------



## Hills (Aug 18, 2012)

The rucks started 2 months ago, started MA a month ago although I've been running powerlifting programs (531 mainly) from last September. (Started the running at the same time, It's 40 miles because it's 4 miles either way into college 5 days a week during term time, the distances are a bit more mixed up during holidays. My bag with gym cloths and books ect.. only comes to about 15lbs)

I'm worried I've de-railed the thread a bit, should we continue this somewhere else? (I'm new so unfamiliar with what's OK)


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## CDG (Aug 18, 2012)

You claim to have been running 40 miles a week for over a year, apparently with 15# extra pounds on your back.  In addition to all the running, you make claims of doing overnight rucks with significant weight.  You also say you have been doing 5/3/1 for close to a year, and now you have added MA to the mix.  Maybe I'm wrong, but I sincerely doubt you are actually doing all of this.


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## Hills (Aug 18, 2012)

Anyone that doesn't live/go to college with me and has to put up with the daily washing of phys kit 4-6kcal diet and whining about doms every morning sincerely doubts that I do all I do, that's why I don't talk to most people about my phys. However I'm being 100% honest here, although I can get them below 30 mins the 4 milers often turn into 40 minute affairs on the second runs later in the week and I did fairly light assistance work on 531 I've honestly been keeping this up for a year now (although as mentioned the MA/rucking is a recent addition). 

Not all teenage SF wannabes training regimes consist of call of duty and airsoft!

I'm not saying I'm hardcore by any means, I'm a poor swimmer and progress on my lifts is inconsistent as hell (currently sitting on a 170kg dead and 110kg squat), as well as the fact I have no military experience! I'm not trying to e-brag, just get advice.

Just to verify I sleep at night on the rucks, usually stopping at sunset and setting an alarm for stand to at dawn. Also MA has replaced 531, I've not added it on top.

Frankly for the unit I want to join I'd feel like a fool if I did any less.


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## CDG (Aug 18, 2012)

Yeah, I don't buy it.  I'm out.


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## is friday (Aug 18, 2012)

Why do my knees hurt when they never have before with this same routine?

1.) Cumulative effects.
2.) Change in diet/recovery routine.
3.) Aging.
4.) Unknown variables changing in the routine and how it applies to your body.
5.) Fractal theories.
6.) See #1.


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## F.CASTLE (Aug 18, 2012)

CDG said:


> Yeah, I don't buy it. I'm out.


 
Im just confused as to why he is mixing British slang with Standard Measurements.

IE: Yomp rather than ruck and Miles rather than Kilometers....


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## Etype (Aug 18, 2012)

Hills said:


> Anyone that doesn't live/go to college with me and has to put up with the daily washing of phys kit 4-6kcal diet and whining about doms every morning sincerely doubts that I do all I do, that's why I don't talk to most people about my phys.


What the hell does this mean? The proper usage of punctuation is crucial, without it no one know what you are saying.


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## AWP (Aug 18, 2012)

I was typing up a post to avoid the inevitable massacre, but then I realized Shark Week just ended and there seems to be a little chum leftover.


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## Chopstick (Aug 18, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> I was typing up a post to avoid the inevitable massacre, but then I realized Shark Week just ended and there seems to be a little chum leftover.


We're gonna need a bigger boat.


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## Hills (Aug 19, 2012)

Guys I'm really not sure what's happening here, I'm not claiming to be some hardcore phys ninja, hence why I need to ask about really basic shit. However I'm being honest regarding my training, I do a lot. 

I just wanted to know if there's any extra work I can do to help my knees, that's it...


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## CDG (Aug 19, 2012)

Hills said:


> Guys I'm really not sure what's happening here, I'm not claiming to be some hardcore phys ninja, hence why I need to ask about really basic shit. However I'm being honest regarding my training, I do a lot.
> 
> I just wanted to know if there's any extra work I can do to help my knees, that's it...


 
Look dude, here's the deal, no one believes you.  In fact, we all think you're full of shit.  You know what?  Fuck that.  I won't deign to speak for the rest of the board.  I think you're full of shit. No one runs 40 fucking miles a week with a 15# pack, and does bi-monthly overnight rucks with 60-100#, and was doing 5/3/1 but just switched to MA.  The fact that you keep trying to argue that you're not full of shit is ridiculous.  Keep lying to us all you want.  You know you don't actually do all that, and so do we.  So just knock it the fuck off and go fuck off somewhere else.


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## Hills (Aug 19, 2012)

I'm being honest, and what I do is fuck all compared to some of the bootnecks I know, If you don't believe me fine. 

I'll just take it as a compliment and fuck off like you say, clearly I'm in the wrong place.


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## Poccington (Aug 19, 2012)

Going off the basis that you're actually telling the truth, since I've no real reason to not believe you bar the rucking part is a bit wobbly.I don't know too many people rucking upto 100lbs after just 2 months.

You seriously need to rethink your training mate. Running 4 miles, twice a day, on top of daily MA workouts will quite literally kick the life out of you. That's three workouts, on top of whatever workload you have in college. Stop doing overnights as part of your training too. By all accounts, get out under a ruck for a few hours but there's zero need to stay out overnight. Get home and into a bed.

This place is quite literally filled with people who know quite alot about many different subjects, including fitness as I'm sure you've noticed. Less of the chest beating, more thinking before you post and this forum could do wonders in helping you prepare for Selection. Continue as you are now though and it'll do nothing for you.

Your call.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 19, 2012)

CDG said:


> Yeah, I don't buy it. I'm out.


 


CDG said:


> rabble, rabble, rabble...


You're a worse liar than duffleblog!


----------



## is friday (Aug 19, 2012)

I've been doing the following for my lead-up to BRC:

2hr MCMAP-oriented PT in the morning.
1hr in the pool during chow.

Some days I have a third workout, but most days it's just the two. MCMAP PT usually is: flak runs w/ plates and buddy drag/carries or A&S Short Card. There's also random conditioning stuff that just happens naturally during the course. Sometimes there is a few rounds of grappling with my students, too.

For my swimming I'm mixing it up between days where all I do is work on my underwater crossover, sometimes I do suicides w/ calisthenics, sometimes I just do distance. Performing a "pull" during a bottom sample still hurts me when I'm more worn out but it's getting better. I'm going to start including treading with bricks I've just been putting it off stupidly. My overall comfort in the water has risen dramatically even since my injury. I timed myself at 14:00 for a 500m in cammies. I'll have to double-check on that time this week, because I'm not quite sure if I believe it.

I'm at about 13 pull ups right now. I was at 0 in April after my injury and then right out of physical therapy at the beginning of July I was at 6 with extreme pain. Now I only have pain when I over-work it and my rotator cuff injury becomes more apparent. (I had a shoulder subluxation.)

I was seriously worn out going into 2-a-days the first couple of weeks of August but I've managed to suffer through them. More than anything I was worried about re-injuring myself which is why I've been wary to conduct 2-a-days until now. I did keep up with my cardio even during physical therapy so I'm still a great runner/hiker.

Does anyone have any suggestions about how I can compliment what I'm doing now? I would like to stay away from weights for the most part for fear of injury. I was thinking rock climbing, which I've been telling myself I should start... I've just been putting it off.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 19, 2012)

I'll leave this one up to the experts. 
I'd just say, don't over-do it.  If you show up broken, you won't be any good to anyone.


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## AWP (Aug 19, 2012)

is friday said:


> I've been doing the following for my lead-up to BRC:


 
I don't have any advice, but how many weeks/ months do you have before you report to BRC?


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## CDG (Aug 19, 2012)

is friday said:


> I would like to stay away from weights for the most part for fear of injury.


 
This is faulty reasoning.  Injuries accrued through weight training happen as a result of poor form or trying to go too heavy too fast.  The benefits of weightlifting are numerous, to include increased bone density, stronger joints and connective tissue, and increased durability in general.  If you use solid form, and don't try and stack plates on for the sake of stacking plates on, you'll be fine.  I would highly discourage anyone in the military from avoiding weight training.


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## is friday (Aug 19, 2012)

Freefalling said:


> I don't have any advice, but how many weeks/ months do you have before you report to BRC?


I am trying to get into the prep course somewhere around the 5-7 of Sept, but my school date is the 27th of Sept.



CDG said:


> This is faulty reasoning. Injuries accrued through weight training happen as a result of poor form or trying to go too heavy too fast. The benefits of weightlifting are numerous, to include increased bone density, stronger joints and connective tissue, and increased durability in general. If you use solid form, and don't try and stack plates on for the sake of stacking plates on, you'll be fine. I would highly discourage anyone in the military from avoiding weight training.


I don't have a training partner because of my training schedule being spontaneous. I might have poor form right now because I haven't done any weights-based lifting in about 6-8 months. (Not including the stuff I did during phys therapy.) I'd rather not risk it until I'm through BRC. If I over-do it on a pull up bar I let go and stretch it for the rest of the day--my shoulder still does pop if it's strained. Conversely, if I over-do it during cleans or bench, I'm probably already 6 mikes up Shit Creek.

I don't intend to shy away from weight training forever. I just don't want one mistake to screw my career.


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## CDG (Aug 19, 2012)

is friday said:


> I don't have a training partner because of my training schedule being spontaneous. I might have poor form right now because I haven't done any weights-based lifting in over 6-8 months. I'd rather not risk it until I'm through BRC. If I over-do it on a pull up bar I let go and stretch it for the rest of the day--my shoulder still does pop if it's strained. Conversely, if I over-do it during cleans or bench, I'm probably already 6 mikes up Shit Creek.
> 
> I don't intend to shy away from weight training forever. I just don't want one mistake to screw my career.


 
I gotcha. If you are able to set up a camera, or get someone to shoot a video of you lifting, I would be more than happy to offer a critique.  I have a couple years experience training people in all the movements utilized in CF/MA/SOFWODs, etc. and have done video critiques before.  Just wanted to throw it out there.  Good luck dude.


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## is friday (Aug 19, 2012)

CDG said:


> I gotcha. If you are able to set up a camera, or get someone to shoot a video of you lifting, I would be more than happy to offer a critique. I have a couple years experience training people in all the movements utilized in CF/MA/SOFWODs, etc. and have done video critiques before. Just wanted to throw it out there. Good luck dude.


That would actually be really helpful! I took this personal trainer course through ISSA but my experience with lifting weights is pretty basic. I'm afraid I've built up bad habits that I don't realize from football practice growing up. I'll PM you with a video of me doing some reps with some PCP pipe or the bar if my shoulder starts feeling up to some cleans/deadlifts/bench/squat. I was at the gym doing the short card the other day and saw a bar with a couple of tires on it (135lb) and tried a deadlift--I felt no problems, but I'm trying to be cautious about it. I was performing an underwater crossover last week when my shoulder popped pretty bad with no warning. I just don't want that to happen when I'm in the middle of a clean/bench.

I would then be known in future safety briefs as "the guy who died while bench pressing 150lbs".


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## CDG (Aug 19, 2012)

is friday said:


> That would actually be really helpful! I took this personal trainer course through ISSA but my experience with lifting weights is pretty basic. I'm afraid I've built up bad habits that I don't realize from football practice growing up. I'll PM you with a video of me doing some reps with some PCP pipe or the bar if my shoulder starts feeling up to some cleans/deadlifts/bench/squat. I was at the gym doing the short card the other day and saw a bar with a couple of tires on it (135lb) and tried a deadlift--I felt no problems, but I'm trying to be cautious about it. I was performing an underwater crossover last week when my shoulder popped pretty bad with no warning. I just don't want that to happen when I'm in the middle of a clean/bench.
> 
> I would then be known in future safety briefs as "the guy who died while bench pressing 150lbs".


 
Sounds good man.  I'll keep an eye out.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 28, 2012)

Ah chlorine, how I've missed the burning sensation you cause in my eyes.  Went for my first real swim in over a year.  A few quick warm up laps CSS & FS then a CSS 250m in 5:30. I guess not too bad, all things considered.


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## DrkEgl (Aug 31, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Ah chlorine, how I've missed the burning sensation you cause in my eyes. Went for my first real swim in over a year. A few quick warm up laps CSS & FS then a CSS 250m in 5:30. I guess not too bad, all things considered.


 
Are you using the pool on base?  I haven't been up there when it's open (I think.)  How is it? The only pool there I've used is the one for RTC.  I've been bouncing back and forth between pools at two gyms (one near work and the other downtown.)  Both have a tendancy to be crowded in the lap lanes.  That combined with my goofy work schedule tends to mean I can't get a swim in when I do bother to budget time and pack a suit/towel.  I'd make the slight trek on base if I knew it was okay and not terribly busy.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 31, 2012)

Yeah, the one on the TSC side.  
I was there right when the lap swimming opened at 1630.  I swam for 20 mins with no bother.  I was the only one actually swimming, plenty of room too.  It was the first time I went, but I'd assume that if you're there right at 1630, you'll be GTG.


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## DrkEgl (Aug 31, 2012)

It's the one just east of the NEX, right?  I'll be pulling some extra duty a couple days next week and could probably fit it in right after I'm off.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 31, 2012)

That's correct, building 440.


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## DrkEgl (Aug 31, 2012)

Many kind thanks.


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## Etype (Sep 1, 2012)

They recently converted a pool on Bragg to saline- it's awesome.


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 1, 2012)

That might be what they tell you, but it's really just all the pee in the pool...


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## racing_kitty (Sep 1, 2012)

There's a difference between saline and ammonia...


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 23, 2012)

Here's my 5/3/1 spread sheet after 3 4-week cycles. 

Also, an interesting video(s) I found on mobilityWOD about using a hook grip for pull ups.  I've always kept my thumbs on top of the bar, but I used this grip a few times last week.  It feels like it allows your elbows to stay wider, thus utilizing more of your back and less of your arms.  If that makes sense...  Thanks to Freefalling on this one.  He told me if I didn't use mobilityWOD I was essentially raping myself.  

http://www.mobilitywod.com/2012/08/...ip-and-better-pull-up-shoulder-stability.html


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## Sendero (Sep 23, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Here's my 5/3/1 spread sheet after 3 4-week cycles.
> 
> http://www.mobilitywod.com/2012/08/...ip-and-better-pull-up-shoulder-stability.html


 
A few questions on 5/3/1 if I may? I've just started reading the 5/3/1 manual.

1. On the 5/3/1 + days, that is taking the weight to lift on that day and doing max reps correct?
So week 1 bench for you was 5+ means at least 5 reps, but do as many as you can. Of which you got 10 reps at 140.
2. How did you break up your lifts and days? Hope that makes sense. I'm trying to think of a better way to say that, but I'm not coming up with much.
3. Any running and accessory/calisthenics work in your week?
_*ETA: Reread your post earlier in this thread about how you decided to do this.  Is this still the same, or has it evolved into something else?_

MWOD never ceases to amaze me with the info they put out. I will be trying out that hook grip asap.

Thanks for sharing Skrewz.


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 23, 2012)

Sendero said:


> A few questions on 5/3/1 if I may? I've just started reading the 5/3/1 manual.
> 
> 1. On the 5/3/1 + days, that is taking the weight to lift on that day and doing max reps correct?
> So week 1 bench for you was 5+ means at least 5 reps, but do as many as you can. Of which you got 10 reps at 140.
> ...


 
1) Correct.  The *3rd set* on any given day/lift/weight is AMRAP.  Week 1 at 5/5/*5+* or week 3 at 5/3/*1+*, the 3rd set is always balls to the wall.  If you can only get the RX'd number, leave it at that.  So, that 3rd set on week 1 @ 140lbs was 5+ (as many more as you can get)  I hope that makes sense.
2) M - Bench/T - Squat/Th - OH Press/F - DL
3) Now that I'm in SD, I'm going to find a CF gym (that hopefully doesn't break the bank) and work in CF on M/W/F.  I'm swimming 2x a week as well right now because my foot is bothering me.  Getting old is for the birds.
4) I'm still using this as a tool to gain strength.  I now have a kitchen directly across the hall from me with a fridge and an oven, so I'll be eating much healthier as well.

I hope this answers your questions.  If I've confused you at all or misunderstood your questions (highly likely) just let me know and I'll try to clarify.


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## Sendero (Sep 24, 2012)

Makes sense to me and I found it informative.  Thanks for sharing your progression.


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## Etype (Sep 24, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> ...mobilityWOD about using a hook grip for pull ups. I've always kept my thumbs on top of the bar, but I used this grip a few times last week.


Keeping your hands anchored also keeps them from twisting (if you do kipping pullups) and it allows you to put a bit of torque on the bar (like when you "break" the bar or pull it apart when benching).  I started doing this about 6 months ago and it helped out a lot with shoulder pain I was having from pull ups.


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## Hillclimb (Sep 24, 2012)

Etype said:


> Keeping your hands anchored also keeps them from twisting (if you do kipping pullups) and it allows you to put a bit of torque on the bar (like when you "break" the bar or pull it apart when benching). I started doing this about 6 months ago and it helped out a lot with shoulder pain I was having from pull ups.


 




 
He talks in this vid about pull up mechanics, primarily head position, and how it relates to shoulder problems. I like his vids, just wish I had more time to go through em


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 25, 2012)

I have such a hard time breaking down a video like that with so much great information.  My brain can't compartmentalize everything contained within because I don't know what a lot of that stuff means.  I'm starting to get elbow pain and I think this would be a huge help.  All I was really able to take away from it is the position above the bar, kind of an acute angle with chin "arriving" over the bar and the legs/feet angled in with the feet forward of the bar.  Can anyone break it down a little more for me as far as the internal/external rotation?  Etype , like what you were saying about pull ups and bench pressing.


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## Hillclimb (Sep 26, 2012)

I'll try to break it down when I get back from the bar.. if I get back from bar and if I haven't had too many drinks. :-"


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## Lefty375 (Sep 26, 2012)

Hey I have access to the Crossfit Journal...I saw you guys were looking at mobility stuff. If any of you want my login, just hit me up.


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## Etype (Sep 26, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Can anyone break it down a little more for me as far as the internal/external rotation? Etype , like what you were saying about pull ups and bench pressing.


When you externally rotate, you tighten up your shoulders. Even if your hands are in a pronated grip (palm facing away) you can torque them outward (externally rotated)- even if they don't move much, the torque will tighten your shoulders. The external rotating is what you hear powerlifters refer to as "breaking the bar". You can do this for push ups by trying to twist your hands externally on the ground (similar to what you do with your feet when squatting), and on bench and pull ups by breaking the bar. Doing it without your fingers wrapped lessens the amount of torque you can put on the bar and your shoulders.

Kelly Starrett gets pretty deep into the how and the why- he's a doctor who lives and breaths this stuff.  I listen to what he says with the predetermination that it works, and that he knows more than I ever will.


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 28, 2012)

Hillclimb , you still recovering from all those umbrella drinks you had a couple nights ago?  
So, this "breaking the bar" is more hand placement which leads to better shoulder position/rotation?  
If I'm understanding correctly (I tried it today with the SOFWOD workout), you place your hands on the bar and then move your hands as if you're trying to "break" the pull up bar.  This moves the outer part of the hand (pinkie area) down towards the bar and the index/thumb part up.  These movements are very slight, as you pointed out Etype , but am I doing this correctly?  This, in turn, allows more torque and better rotation via better positioning of the shoulder on the way up for pull ups.
Finding a pull up bar around here that allows my feet to hang freely is a whole 'nother issue...  :-/


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## Hillclimb (Sep 28, 2012)

Sorry man! I wish. That night turned into a rescue op when my friend got kicked out of the bar. Had to be up 3 hours later for class too. 

From what I gathered from the video, he's just talking about a neutral position and the little things that will break your posture/positioning. So for instance, using a pullup bar that is too short for you will break your positioning and cause over extension(i believe that ties in with rib cage positioning), keeping your head tall and facing forward vs chin pointed up changing your spines neutral position. And keeping the ribcage pointed down makes it easier to externally rotate. When the shoulder is internally rotated, it is very loose, unstable and not a good position to be taking a beating in, as well as place unnecessary angle/pressure on the elbows.

I hope that made sense/I interpreted that correctly.


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## Etype (Oct 2, 2012)

SkrewzLoose,
Yep, it's pretty subtle- but you should feel a slight bit more tension in your shoulder, you'll be hanging more by musculature and not so much connective tissue. 

To follow up what Hillclimb said about keeping a neutral position- I noticed I had a lot better form doing chest-to-bar pull ups because it's pointless to try to reach with your chin because that's not the goal.  Now that's all I do- when I'm no longer able to get my chest up the bar, it's time to quit because I know my form will start falling apart.


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## Spencer (Oct 4, 2012)

Etype said:


> SkrewzLoose,
> Yep, it's pretty subtle- but you should feel a slight bit more tension in your shoulder, you'll be hanging more by musculature and not so much connective tissue.
> 
> To follow up what Hillclimb said about keeping a neutral position- I noticed I had a lot better form doing chest-to-bar pull ups because it's pointless to try to reach with your chin because that's not the goal. Now that's all I do- *when I'm no longer able to get my chest up the bar, it's time to quit because I know my form will start falling apart.*


 
So are you saying not to go to muscle failure, just go till you're form becomes compromised, and then begin a new set?


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 9, 2012)

Don't know why I ever switched away from my Nike Free running shoes...


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## Hillclimb (Oct 10, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Don't know why I ever switched away from my Nike Free running shoes...


 

I love the free run 3.0's. They're sexy too. My brother recommended them to me and I haven't looked back


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 10, 2012)

I switched to the NB Minimus after my first pair of Frees.  I think I was trying to be cool.  Figured I would have outgrown that a long time ago.  Anyhow, I have a set of the Free Run 3.0 as well.  I wore them for the first time today and needless to say, I won't be switching back.


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## Servimus (Oct 10, 2012)

Picked up a pair of Nike Lunarglide 3's. Went from shinsplints to running on a cloud. Best shoe I've ever worn.


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## Hillclimb (Oct 10, 2012)

Servimus said:


> Picked up a pair of Nike Lunarglide 3's. Went from shinsplints to running on a cloud. Best shoe I've ever worn.


 
I was on the fence between those and the free runs when I went shopping. My brother has both and said all around, he preferred the free runs. We're very different though. 6'2" 220lbs and 5'8" 160lbs.

Have you tried the free's? I'd like to hear a second opinion on a comparison of the two.


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## Servimus (Oct 10, 2012)

Hillclimb said:


> I was on the fence between those and the free runs when I went shopping. My brother has both and said all around, he preferred the free runs. We're very different though. 6'2" 220lbs and 5'8" 160lbs.
> 
> Have you tried the free's? I'd like to hear a second opinion on a comparison of the two.


I have tried free's, but never owned a pair.

I got my LG's after going to a running store (not champs, or footlocker). They put me on a treadmill for a couple minutes and filmed my feet, ankles and legs to analyze my gait. Then the woman/marathon beast that worked there picked out a few shoes based on what she saw. From there on out it was personal preference. 

I think that's what it comes down to also between free's and LG's. They both seem pretty similar to me.  I'm not really sure how much height and weight has to do with shoe choice as much as your running gait, how your foot strikes and the length of your legs in relation to one-another. I can only really speak for the LG's though.  Those shoes combined with concentrating on proper running form from tips I got here and other places on the web, eliminated my shinsplints and shot my times down on my runs dramatically.


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## Hillclimb (Oct 10, 2012)

Servimus said:


> I'm not really sure how much height and weight has to do with shoe choice as much as your running gait, how your foot strikes and the length of your legs in relation to one-another.


 
Just a lazy way to illustrate that.


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## CDG (Oct 10, 2012)

I recently got a pair of the Saucony Fastwitch's and I love them.  Great for everything from running to CrossFit workouts.   They are considered a "neutral" shoe and are good for people with higher arches.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 10, 2012)

This is more of a "what I saw in the gym today" post vice brain storming, but anyway...
Older Asian (looking) guy over at the DB rack, near the heavy end.  Picks up 2 125# DB.  I'm thinking, shit, one of those things weighs as much as he does.  He struggles to make it 5 feet away from the rack and then puts them on the ground.  I stop what I'm doing so I can see what this guy is about to do...and possibly administer some kind of first aid in case he breaks his spleen or something.  He starts "dead-lifting" the 2 125# DB.  And by "dead-lifting" I mean he's just bending over at the waist, picking them up and then putting them back down with a rounded back the whole time.  He puts the 125s back and picks up 135s...then 150s...does the same thing.  
How do people like this not seriously break themselves?  I've seen poor form due to way too much weight on a bar before but this was in a whole 'nother league.  

Oh, and by the way, if you're doing seated calf raises and your forearms and triceps are twitching because they're being worked too much on the handles on top, you're probably doing it wrong big fella...


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## Salt USMC (Oct 11, 2012)

Count me as one of the people for whom minimalist shoes and POSE running didn't work for.  I first tried the Nike Frees, and later the New Balance Minimus, but no matter what I tried my run times increased and my knee were constantly sore.  I will grant that I never had real instruction on POSE running, but I did what I had read.  So the question now is this: What are some good shoes that I can heel strike all day in?


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## Servimus (Oct 11, 2012)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Count me as one of the people for whom minimalist shoes and POSE running didn't work for. I first tried the Nike Frees, and later the New Balance Minimus, but no matter what I tried my run times increased and my knee were constantly sore. I will grant that I never had real instruction on POSE running, but I did what I had read. So the question now is this: What are some good shoes that I can heel strike all day in?


I'd advise you go to a running shoe store if you haven't already. The good ones will do to you what they did to me- put you on a treadmill and have someone who knows their stuff analyze your gait and arches and recommend a pair of shoes based on that data. It's worked for me a few of my buddies. 

If the store is any good they'll let you run in them to get a feel for them too.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 11, 2012)

x2 to what Servimus said.  I'll never buy running shoes anywhere else.


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## Nsharp (Oct 16, 2012)

Etype said:


> Alright, this has been consuming my thoughts so I have to type this out or I'll never fall asleep. I'm going to give this a no BS 2 month trial run to see what happens. Actually doing it will expose any weaknesses or shortcomings.
> 
> 4 Days a week, M-T-T-F, Wednesday is optional for recovery work.
> 3 Protocols-
> ...


 
Resurrection as I would like to see how this ended up.  I've read through the thread and didn't really see much of an end-goal kind of summary.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 16, 2012)

I'm SERIOUSLY considering starting to (covertly) video tape some folks at the gym here on base.  I've seen some funny/dumb shit go on at gyms where I work out, but some of the non sense I've seen here over the past 2 weeks is mind boggling.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 22, 2012)

WTF!?
So I'm using this week (supposed to be my de-load week for 5/3/1) to see where my 1RM are for my 4 lifts.  This is the end of my 4th cycle or my 12th week.  Today was bench.
I did a light warm up of:
95 x 5
135 x 3
Then I put 185 on the bar.  Got it up with just a bit of struggle, not much.  I was pumped.
195...couldn't get it past 90* and had to rack it on the lowest hook.  I was pissed.  185 was my starting 1RM 12 weeks ago.  I've posted my spread sheets as I've progressed, am I doing something really fucking wrong here?  Not sure what to think...

Not sure if this is related or not, but decided to do the BB complex as a warm up for my conditioning after my lift.  I did 3 rounds @ 95lbs and felt better than I ever have at that weight.  I didn't have to drop the bar once and my resting between sets was minimal.  What the dick!?


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## Hillclimb (Oct 22, 2012)

Should've just used this week to deload then retest the week after if you really wanted to know. I've always capitalized on the deload weeks and milked em.


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## CDG (Oct 23, 2012)

SkrewzLoose, Hillclimb hit the nail on the head.  Deload weeks are there for a reason.  Even if you feel good, your body is not primed for maximal output after 3 hard weeks of training.  Your numbers would very likely be different had you followed the deload week and then tested the following week.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 23, 2012)

Thanks for the input gents.  I'll be de-loading properly for the rest of the week.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 28, 2012)

Here's my latest round of 5/3/1, on Sheet 4.  I'm happy with the progress that I'm making and that the 1+ days are becoming more and more difficult.  
I was talking with my youngest brother a week or so ago and he was telling me about his squats and I was very surprised at the weights he was claiming.  So, I video-ed myself doing squats (as a "this is what it should look like, not the half squat/half good morning you're doing" )  and I learned something.  I always worried about my form going to shit as the weight got heavier, so I videoed my heavy squat day.  My form was spot on during each set.  That means now I can focus more on the weight and the lift because I know my form is good.


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## egm (Nov 1, 2012)

The 5/3/1 program is great.  I just started my 6th consecutive cycle, and even though some days may have been difficult at getting the bare minimum reps, my over all strength has increased pretty well.  I had to start doing the 2 day a week program (with the 5th cycle) so I could focus more on running, rucking, swimming, and PFT events.  You may not have good days/weeks where you struggle with those max sets, but if you take a deload week then a week to do maxes, you'll be moving weights you didn't think possible.


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## SkrewzLoose (Nov 19, 2012)

Here's my latest.  
I mind-fucked myself out of a 3rd rep on my 5/3/1+ bench day.  But, as I was reminded, anything over 1 rep is icing on the cake.  I was happy with my squat and OH press because there's a new 1RM in there somewhere.  I started my squat at a 185# 1RM.  Last week I got 190# twice.  Same thing with my OH press at 115# for 6 reps.
My DL, on the other hand, went to shit at 285lbs.  I could feel my back arch as soon as I got the weight off the ground.  225 & 255 were fine.  So, I'm going to go through the same DL weights for this cycle and see where I stand in 4 weeks.  I'll be moving forward with everything else and judging it as I go.  
Any comments/suggestions, please feel free to interject.


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## CDG (Nov 20, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Here's my latest.
> I mind-fucked myself out of a 3rd rep on my 5/3/1+ bench day. But, as I was reminded, anything over 1 rep is icing on the cake. I was happy with my squat and OH press because there's a new 1RM in there somewhere. I started my squat at a 185# 1RM. Last week I got 190# twice. Same thing with my OH press at 115# for 6 reps.
> My DL, on the other hand, went to shit at 285lbs. I could feel my back arch as soon as I got the weight off the ground. 225 & 255 were fine. So, I'm going to go through the same DL weights for this cycle and see where I stand in 4 weeks. I'll be moving forward with everything else and judging it as I go.
> Any comments/suggestions, please feel free to interject.


 
What have your assistance lifts been on DL days?  It's possible you need to change your assistance to strengthen your posterior chain and/or abs a little more.  It's also possible that your back isn't nearly as compromised as you think and you're mind-fucking yourself.


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## SkrewzLoose (Nov 20, 2012)

Honestly, very little lower back work.  Mainly pull ups, pull downs and rows of some variety.  I'll ramp up my overall core work as well.  Thanks for the outside view.  I get tunnel vision sometimes trying to look at my own work.  
And you're 100% correct.  
I'll be sure to record my heavy day again and see if it's all in my head.


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## CDG (Nov 20, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Honestly, very little lower back work. Mainly pull ups, pull downs and rows of some variety. I'll ramp up my overall core work as well. Thanks for the outside view. I get tunnel vision sometimes trying to look at my own work.
> And you're 100% correct.
> I'll be sure to record my heavy day again and see if it's all in my head.


 
Consider doing Good Mornings, Romanian Deadlifts, and/or Glute-Ham raises.  Those are all great deadlift assistance lifts.  Don't do both good mornings and RDLs in the same session, but pick one and do a 3 x 8-12 coupled with a 3 x 12-20 on the raises.  If 20 at a time is easy, add weight or a band for resistance.  I can post video links if you need them.


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## Hillclimb (Nov 20, 2012)

Do you use a belt when you DL?


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## SkrewzLoose (Nov 20, 2012)

CDG , all good simple exercises that I've neglected.  I'll start incorporating them.  Our gym on base even has a GHD sit up device/rack.
Hillclimb , I don't use a belt for any exercises.  You can still have awful form with a belt on, so I've always forgone its use.  Just MHO.


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## Hillclimb (Nov 21, 2012)

o





SkrewzLoose said:


> CDG , all good simple exercises that I've neglected.  'll start incorporating them.  Our gym on base even has a GHD sit up device/rack.
> Hillclimb , I don't use a belt for any exercises.  You can still have awful form with a belt on, so I've always forgone its use.  Just MHO.



Good man. I was just checking, I feel that it hinders lower back and core development IMHO. 

I've never really done much lower back work, but the GHR was money when I did west side. Other than that I just do 20 minutes of Russian kettlebells with this Kb certified guy at school every other morning.


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## Sendero (Nov 21, 2012)

I'll put in another vote for the GHR's, I believe they helped my core with the DL and squat.


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## CDG (Nov 21, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> I don't use a belt for any exercises. You can still have awful form with a belt on, so I've always forgone its use. Just MHO.


 


Hillclimb said:


> Good man. I was just checking, I feel that it hinders lower back and core development IMHO.


 
This is a somewhat prevalent myth among the functional fitness crowd.  A belt does not  hinder core/low back development.  Actually, it makes the abs work harder.  You are bracing against the belt as opposed to bracing against nothing.  It doesn't make you any stronger, but it does allow you to lift more weight. It's all about knowing how to use it.  Some people do slap on a belt and think it's a magic pill that renders correct form and technique irrelevant.  These people are ignorant of a belt's purpose in lifting.


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## Hillclimb (Nov 21, 2012)

I didn't think that it made your abdominals work any harder,  but just create stronger pressure to protect your spine. And isn't there a big difference from pushing your abdominal wall against the belt than contracting your abs?

I remember reading about a woman who had an abdominal muscle tear and had it repaired. When she returned to squatting she was asked to avoid pushing her abdomen outward until she fully healed. So she contracted her abs instead and started getting knee pains. But when she pushed her abdomen outward, she didn’t have any knee pain at all. The entire motor pattern of the squat was altered because of the way she used her belt.

My information could be outdated. I just see the belt as something I shouldn't get accustomed to. When Im in situations where I will be using that sort of strength/movement, I won't always have access to a belt.


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## CDG (Nov 21, 2012)

Hillclimb said:


> I didn't think that it made your abdominals work any harder, but just create stronger pressure to protect your spine. And isn't there a big difference from pushing your abdominal wall against the belt than contracting your abs?
> 
> I remember reading about a woman who had an abdominal muscle tear and had it repaired. When she returned to squatting she was asked to avoid pushing her abdomen outward until she fully healed. So she contracted her abs instead and started getting knee pains. But when she pushed her abdomen outward, she didn’t have any knee pain at all. The entire motor pattern of the squat was altered because of the way she used her belt.
> 
> My information could be outdated. I just see the belt as something I shouldn't get accustomed to. When Im in situations where I will be using that sort of strength/movement, I won't always have access to a belt.


 
You won't always have access to a balanced barbell either.  A belt is a tool, just like lifting shoes, wrist wraps, sleeves, straps, or whatever else.  It's all in how you use it.  Yes, you brace the abs against the belt by pushing outward.  Using a belt does not mean you no longer need to use the abs.  It is the same ab contraction you should be doing without the belt, you just now have something to push against.  Sucking the abs in is not the proper way to create intra-abdominal pressure before a heavy lift.  There is a difference between becoming dependent on a piece of gear and understanding how and when it can provide a positive effect in your training.  If you don't want to use a belt, then don't.  Right now it seems as though you're not using one based on faulty reasoning.  I'm not trying to argue you into using one, just trying to let you know that there is benefit to it when used properly.


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## SkrewzLoose (Nov 22, 2012)

I like seeing people who wear belts when their entire time in the gym is spent using cable machines.
Also, I've seen a guy using straps on tricep pull downs w/rope. He had the wraps going around the rope... I scoffed.

Also, thank you both for some insight on the use of belts.


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## Sendero (Nov 22, 2012)

I like belts when I'm lifting heavy. I can feel myself working/pushing my cores muscles. It's a physical cue for me and I feel I use better technique with the belt. I don't use one when I'm lifting lighter weight and working for form, posture and etc.

With that said, I'm not at intermediate levels on the DL or Squat yet. My best are 345 and 335 respectively at 180-185 lbs. I know there are guys my size, that can lift a ton more weight, but I don't go to failure and I'm a safety first kind of guy. On those heavy lifts, I feel safer with a belt, so I use it.

Appreciate your commentary on your 5/3/1 SkrewzLoose, it's motivating and I look forward to giving 5/3/1 a shot. Hopefully at the beginning of December. I'm in between gyms, as my old gym actually moved locations.

ETA: Happy Thanksgiving Everyone


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 3, 2012)

As much as I hate it, I miss running.  It's torture being in San Diego where the weather is perfect 350 days a year and I can't run.


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## Sendero (Dec 4, 2012)

Read the manual and started the 5/3/1 program this week.  I enjoyed it and look forward to the next work out.  I'm going to try it with running 3x a week (2 interval sessions & one for distance) and plenty of push ups, GHR, pull ups and core exercises.  I know I won't build as much raw strength this way, but I think it will give balance to my current goals.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 4, 2012)

Got jello legs for the first time in a long time today (squat day).  Also, I'm assuming that GHD sit ups and good mornings are GTG for squat day as well.  Yes?

Sendero , what do you mean "won't build as much raw strength"?  5/3/1 is a strength building program.


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## Sendero (Dec 4, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Sendero , what do you mean "won't build as much raw strength"? 5/3/1 is a strength building program.


 
I meant by doing extra running and lot's of cals, versus just doing 5/3/1 as a stand alone program.  I am definitely trying to increase raw strength, but also maintain my running standards.  Sorry for the confusion and hope my response makes sense.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 4, 2012)

Roger.


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## surgicalcric (Dec 4, 2012)

Oh how I cant wait to get back under the squat rack...  

Something tells me with an Above-Knee-Amp I will be doing more rear leg raised split squats than heavy front/rear squats.  We will see as only time will tell.

Crip


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 4, 2012)

surgicalcric said:


> Oh how I cant wait to get back under the squat rack...
> 
> Something tells me with an Above-Knee-Amp I will be doing more rear leg raised split squats than heavy front/rear squats. We will see as only time will tell.
> 
> Crip


 

I continue to be amazed, impressed, inspired, but not surprised by your posts here.  
Thank you again for what you do for our country and your contributions to this site.


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## Sendero (Dec 5, 2012)

5/3/1 Deadlift day broke me off and kicked me in the junk this morning. I got my reps, but DL is a lift I really need to work on. I'm just still uncomfortable with them, when I get to that last heavy set.

Question for you DL aficionado's out there. I don't touch and go on the DL and normally come to a dead stop, remain grip and posture, then go for next rep. When I was reading 5/3/1, if I'm reading it correctly, he says on a dead stop, to reset on every DL rep. Does he mean actually release grip and do a total reset?

ETA: Reading the post above mine and what mental and physical fortitude really is.  If my post is inappropriate or weak sauce, please delete.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 5, 2012)

HA, I asked CDG a question along the same lines.  Just knock the reps out, you know when you can't complete another one.  2-3 seconds between each rep is not a big deal. Walking around the gym and coming back to the bar after getting a drink of water is a different story.  I don't do touch and go either.  I minimize my fidgeting/reseting and bang out another rep.  Like I said, you'll know when you hit the point where you can't pull the bar.


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## MilkTruckCoPilot (Dec 6, 2012)

Sendero

According to Mark Rippetoe, he sees a correlation/connection between lifters who bounce their deads and inability to keep a flat back. Make sure you are doing whatever is needed to getting yourself back into a good position.


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## Sendero (Dec 6, 2012)

MilkTruckCoPilot said:


> Sendero
> 
> According to Mark Rippetoe...


 
I'm a fan of Rippetoe and Starting Strength and did about 6 months of his program earlier this year, with good results.  Rippetoe & SS was the impetus to the original question, as I thought he teaches not to let go of the bar (If my memory serves correctly).  When I read Wendler's 5/3/1 it seemed like he was saying go ahead, let go of the bar and make sure you have a good reset.  I had, in the past, been very strict about not letting go of the bar, when pulling for reps. 



MilkTruckCoPilot said:


> Make sure you are doing *whatever is needed* to getting yourself back into a good position.


 
Great point.  Thanks.


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## CDG (Dec 7, 2012)

Sendero said:


> I'm a fan of Rippetoe and Starting Strength and did about 6 months of his program earlier this year, with good results. Rippetoe & SS was the impetus to the original question, as I thought he teaches not to let go of the bar (If my memory serves correctly). When I read Wendler's 5/3/1 it seemed like he was saying go ahead, let go of the bar and make sure you have a good reset. I had, in the past, been very strict about not letting go of the bar, when pulling for reps.


 
It doesn't matter too much either way.  Some people can maintain a solid pull position without momentarily letting go of the bar to reset, and some cannot.  Neither is wrong, you just need to do whichever one you feel puts you into a better position for pulling subsequent reps.  The issue with not letting go of the bar is when people progressively get more and more compromised on each rep after the first one.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 7, 2012)

210/240/270 felt/looked pretty good on my 3/3/3+ DL day today.  I'll try to get some video of my heavy sets next week since that's where I felt my from went to shit.
What I'm even more excited about is that I'm nearing or have already passed body weight numbers for squat and bench press as a 1RM.  Sad to say, I've never done that before for those 2 lifts.  Next week is going to be rough!


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## Sendero (Dec 14, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> 210/240/270 felt/looked pretty good on my 3/3/3+ DL day today.


 
I pretty much did this yesterday, except 220/250/280.  I feel that my form was much better, but DL's are still my "opportunity" .  I felt that I was overall pulling better, but still have some work to do.  The feedback given was very helpful, regarding a proper reset and doing what was needed.  Thanks gents.


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## Hillclimb (Dec 14, 2012)

Since we're on the topic of deadlifting, I saw this the other day.

I started olympic lifting a month ago(snatch/clean), so I've been watching a shit ton of mobwods.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 14, 2012)

Jesus, this guy has it made.  He's a genius when it comes to all this mobility shit and he gets to grope hot chicks in spandex as part of his job.


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## mrob (Dec 17, 2012)

Thanks to this site I was introduced to MWOD a bit ago and it really pays its dividends.


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 17, 2012)

I present you all with, the 12 Days of Christmas WOD:

1) Snatch​2) Muscle Ups (subbed chest to bar strict pull up, can't do muscle ups)​3) Cleans​4) Hand stand push ups (subbed decline push ups)​5) Chest to bar pull ups (subbed chest to bar chin ups)​6) Pistols (don't know what the trick to these is, had to stabilize myself a bit on the wall and only hit parallel)​7) Push Jerks​8) KB swings 24 kg​9) Toes to bar
10) Box jumps 24″
11) Burpees
12) Thrusters
* All barbell movements are 135#, this is a ball smoker.

I scaled the weight to 115#. I finished in 55mins. Here's how it goes...
1 snatch
1 snatch, 2 pull ups
1 snatch, 2 pulls, 3 cleans
1 snatch, 2 pulls, 3 cleans, 4 push ups
And on, and on... Until the final round is what you see above. A ball smoker indeed.
The worst part, other than doing the actual work, is knowing that those 12 thrusters are waiting for you at the very end. Yeah, it's only 12, but they're at the very end of everything. This is the first time that I have ever ended up with snot on my shirt, in addition to it being completely soaked in sweat. ​Also, I hate all of you that finish something like this in <30 mins.  HATE.  ​


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## Rampart (Dec 19, 2012)

Skrewzloose - Finish under 30 is easy, just gotta have your head in the right place- at least that's what I was told:whatever:


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 19, 2012)

Rampart said:


> Skrewzloose - Finish under 30 is easy, just gotta have your head in the right place- at least that's what I was told:whatever:


Wait...are we still talking about the WOD?


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## SkrewzLoose (Dec 23, 2012)

Here's my latest on 5/3/1.  I was VERY happy across the board.  I'm extremely happy with how my squat and DL numbers are progressing.  I felt much better about my DL this week even though it was a repeat of the last cycle weight wise.  Enough blabbering...


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## Sendero (Dec 23, 2012)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Here's my latest on 5/3/1. I was VERY happy across the board. I'm extremely happy with how my squat and DL numbers are progressing. I felt much better about my DL this week even though it was a repeat of the last cycle weight wise. Enough blabbering...


 
Get it done!  Are you doing 4 days a week, I'm doing 3 days a week myself & starting week 3.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jan 7, 2013)

After 2 weeks completely off from any kind of working out, 5/3/1 kicked my dick off today.  I struggled to get 165 x 5 on my last set today.  That's the first time I haven't exceeded the "+" set since I've been doing this.  Still making progress, just frustrating to me.
Also, getting myself in better shape nutritionally.  I'm tired of looking in the mirror and not liking what I see.  Call it a New Year's resolution or whatever...


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## Marine0311 (Jan 7, 2013)

In the interest of discussion;

What is everyone doing now?
What works for you and why? What doesn't work for you and why?


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## Sendero (Jan 8, 2013)

I just finished up +1 week of 5/3/1 and will be deloading this week.  I'm very pleased with my +1 week as I hit some goals.   I really feel like I'm getting my DL technique ironed out and it's showing.  It's the first time in recent memory, where my DL is better than my squat, as it should be.



Marine0311 said:


> In the interest of discussion;
> 
> What is everyone doing now?
> What works for you and why? What doesn't work for you and why?


 
Do you want military personnel only, or for hopeful's too?  I didn't want to post any further comments, without confirming.  If hopeful's are not included, I'll move to the sidelines and look forward to reading the responses.


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## Marine0311 (Jan 8, 2013)

All are welcome. Post what you feel comfortable. Those in train as warriors and those who are hoping to get in should train as warriors.


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## SkrewzLoose (Jan 9, 2013)

Well, this 4 week cycle is going to be a waste.  Not really a waste, but I'm going to have to go through it twice at the current weights.  After struggling for 5 reps on Monday, I received an impromptu tutorial on squats from a 57 year old gent from the USSR today.  This is the guy (I may have mentioned here) who starts at 135# and (no shit) squats 6".  From 135, he goes directly to 225 and does the same thing.  225 > 315 > 405.  All with a low bar and all moving 6" at the most.  I hate talking to people at the gym.  Even my good buddies don't get more than a few words.  Here's how it went.

(Before I even have any weight on the bar.  I'm on a squat rack, he's right next to me in a squat cage)
USSR: You going to lift heavy, mind if I work in?
Me: Uh, not lifting heavy but I'll just trade spots with you, it's all the same to me.
USSR:  No, is OK.  I move just as much as you.
:-/
Then, after each set, he took it upon himself to critique my form for about 5 minutes.  
-Keep toes pointed forward, not out
-Keep the bar lower, it stays over your core, more stable
-Stay back on your heels
-4 seconds down, 2 seconds up
-Breathe out on the way up
-If I hear clanging of weights, you don't have control
And on, and on...  
I understand it's good natured, but if I don't ask for advice, keep it to yourself.  I've seen people do some dumb/dangerous shit in the gym, but unless they ask for pointers, I keep my mouth shut.


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## Hillclimb (Jan 9, 2013)

Get a pair of headphones and get used to saying, "i'm almost done.' Even if you just started your set. I usually finish all my working sets quicker than a conversation with those weirdos, unless I'm Oly lifting


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## SkrewzLoose (Jan 9, 2013)

I did have earphones in.  He banged on the squat rack to initially get my attention.  It was all down hill from there.  
And, he ended up using the squat cage he was in to begin with, he didn't work in with me at all.  

Almost forgot my favorite part(s).
-He called me Comrade at least 3 times.  I was just waiting for him to say, "in Soviet Russia, weight lifts you"
-He told me not to go past parallel.  I understand the Parallel Vs. ATG argument is as old as squatting itself, but he promised me I'd fuck up my knees if I kept going below parallel.


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 19, 2013)

How do you guys program well for yourselves?


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## CDG (Jan 19, 2013)

ThunderHorse said:


> How do you guys program well for yourselves?


 What exactly do you mean?  Are you asking how to decide what kind of program to use while making minor adjustments, or are you asking how to write a complete program for yourself?


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## ThunderHorse (Jan 19, 2013)

The latter I guess, I'm guessing most of this thread has been the former though.  Even though I've followed it relatively well.


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## CDG (Jan 19, 2013)

ThunderHorse said:


> The latter I guess, I'm guessing most of this thread has been the former though. Even though I've followed it relatively well.


 
Most people that I know that program for themselves pick and choose elements or protocols from established regimens and then make small adjustments to fit their goals/needs.  The first step is to decide what exactly you want out of the program in a primary and secondary sense.  Make these specific and achievable.  Once you have that figured out, utilize the established work of well-respected guys within the training communities that will benefit you the most. Programming is not as hard as people make it out to be at times.  You will fuck up, but as long as you learn from it and don't stubbornly cling to protocols that don't work, you'll be fine.  The biggest pitfalls to look out for when programming for yourself are overuse of movements/workouts you like, under-programming of the things you don't like, and not allowing adequate recovery time.


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## SkrewzLoose (Feb 4, 2013)

I feel like I'm hitting a wall/plateau with 5/3/1.  I'm doing this 4 week cycle over again because I struggled with it the last time around.  Today I struggled to get the 5th rep on my 5+ day for bench press.  I know that 5 is all you're going for and anything over that is icing on the cake.  I'm already starting to wonder if I'm going to have to repeat this cycle again or if I should press on.  
Thoughts and advice are more than welcome.


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## DAVE101 (Feb 4, 2013)

If it's just bench that's holding you back, you could alternate with close grip or incline bench for each cycle. Perhaps you need a new kind of stimulus, either by changing the assistance work or doing a different routine all together (like 5x5).


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## Sendero (Feb 5, 2013)

Have you done a reset yet?  If you're making all your reps in a cycle go to the next one, if you don't make it, then consider a reset.   I know you've been doing 5/3/1 longer than I have, so you probably have already reset, but that is what they program calls for.


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## CDG (Feb 5, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> I feel like I'm hitting a wall/plateau with 5/3/1. I'm doing this 4 week cycle over again because I struggled with it the last time around. Today I struggled to get the 5th rep on my 5+ day for bench press. I know that 5 is all you're going for and anything over that is icing on the cake. I'm already starting to wonder if I'm going to have to repeat this cycle again or if I should press on.
> Thoughts and advice are more than welcome.


 
You can adjust individual lifts within a cycle.  So your squat and deadlift can advance, but keep your bench the same.  If at the end of your next 4-week cycle, you are still struggling with bench then you may need to change up your assistance work based on where your sticking point is.


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## SkrewzLoose (Feb 5, 2013)

Sendero , this will be the 2nd time going through this entire cycle at these weights.  

CDG , the last cycle I struggled with all 4 lifts at this weight.  I blamed it on coming off of holiday leave and having not been in a gym for 2 weeks.  I'll see if the rest of my lifts start to follow the same pattern.  I recently changed my assistance work to a more regimented program that I found on BB.com.  As far as the "sticking point" goes, do you cater your assistance work to the large muscle group (chest) or the smaller groups (triceps) or both?  I realize that most chest work is going to engage your chest, triceps and shoulders.
Thanks for the help so far.


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## DAVE101 (Feb 5, 2013)

The assistance work is catered to _where_ the sticking point is. Trouble out of the bottom usually means more chest work is needed (DB bench, pause bench), and trouble closer to lockout is a tricep weakness (close grip bench, skull crushers, board/pin presses). Hope that's useful.


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## SkrewzLoose (Feb 5, 2013)

Here's the assistance work I'm doing now.  It's a strength program I found on BB.com.  The only thing I don't have on here is leg work.  I stick with squats from 5/3/1, some light calf work and good mornings/GHD sit ups and some other variation of squats.  

Decline BB Bench                      
10-12
10-12
6-8
Incline DB Press
10-12
6-8
DB Flye
10-12
6-8

DB Pullover
10-12
10-12
8-10
Close Grip Cable Pulldown
10-12
8-10
One Arm DB Row
10-12
8-10
Wide Grip Cable Row
10-12
8-10

Seated DB Press
10-12
8-10
6-8
Side Lateral Raise
10-12
8-10
Low Pulley Raise
6-8
Reverse DB Flye
10-12
8-10

Tricep Cable Pushdown
10-12
8-10
Skull Crusher
10-12
8-10
OH DB Extension
10-12
8-10


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## Hillclimb (Feb 5, 2013)

Do each of those represent a different week on the bench/OH press days?

I haven't used dumbells/machines in awhile, and feel the progress has been better. Just been doing a shit ton of calisthenics/kettlebells/classic barbell movements, sometimes alone for really high volume, or in a 20~ ish minute complex. I just try to keep workouts 35-45 minutes long, focus on rep integrity, and shorter rest intervals/density.

I feel like dips/weighted dips, and lunges are overlooked.


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## Hillclimb (Feb 5, 2013)

Also there's this @SkrewsLoose. I'll post it here since we talk about 5/3/1 alot.



> Assistance Plans from Wendlers Book:
> -Boring But Big: Main lift, the main lift again @5x10
> (50% 1RM), and another accessory exercise for 5
> sets.
> ...


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## SkrewzLoose (Feb 5, 2013)

Sorry, stupid me, I have a problem with always assuming everyone knows exactly what I mean/am thinking.   
Anyhow, I do the chest work on bench press day, back work on DL day, shoulders/triceps on OH Press day.  
I was thinking about this earlier and I might be over doing it.  I'm trying to do 5/3/1 & the assistance work on M/T/Th/F, some type of CF/MA work on M/W/F in addition to what I'm already doing those days.  I feel like I get more out of the MA/CF/SOFWOD workouts.  Maybe it's because I'm standing in a pool of sweat when I'm done.  Anyhow, trying to apply the KISS method, what if I scaled my strength work and scheduled it around my higher intensity stuff to look something like this.

CF/MA - M/W/F
5/3/1/Strength - T/Th over 2 weeks (i.e. T-bench, Th-squat, [next] T-OH press, [next] Th-DL)
I know that's not how 5/3/1 is designed to be done but it will allow me some more flexibility with my schedule.


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## Hillclimb (Feb 6, 2013)

haha. S'ok.

What options do you have for Saturday?

hmm. I would do it the opposite.

M - Deadlift
W - Bench
F - Squat/OH press

T/Th - conditioning/MA/CF

I've stuck with this template for the fall/winter quarter, with running, and haven't stalled yet. But I also don't do 5/3/1 back to back(probably every other month), because I'm trying to bring my Olympic lifts up. Just be smart when you're pulling the CF/MA/SOFWOD workouts, such as if you have bench the next day, try to make the CF workout as lowerbody centric as you can or take it easy on upper body. It slayed me the first 2 weeks, but over the past 5 months, I've gotten better at recovery. Was able to PR on Deadlift w/495 a few weeks ago to. That messed me up for a few days though, I was soo sore.


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## SkrewzLoose (Feb 7, 2013)

Well, bad news/good news.  
Bad news: I stalled out on my 4th rep doing squats today on my 5+ day.  
Good news: The weight I was doing is my previous 1RM that I started with at the beginning of the program.


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 1, 2013)

I don't fucking get it.  How can 5# make such a difference??
I went back one cycle on all my lifts because I was hitting a wall (2 cycles/8 weeks) at my current weights.  I was struggling just to hit my 5+/3+/1+ numbers every week.  Now that I've gone back an entire cycle, I'm destroying my numbers.  My brain is having a hard time understanding how 5# can be the difference between 9 reps and a struggle to hit 5 reps.  Is it because the 2 preceding sets are heavier as well?  
I'm happy that I'm killing my numbers again, but the mind boggles!
Your thoughts?


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## DAVE101 (Mar 1, 2013)

We all have our ups and downs.

Sometimes it can be attributable to stress, but other times there may not be a clear explanation. In any case, I've never noticed perfectly linear progress in the long term. We seem to go through phases.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 1, 2013)

I really want to check out some of your spread sheets.


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 2, 2013)

I've posted them all in here.  
No laughing at the weights though...


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## Sendero (Mar 2, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> I've posted them all in here.
> No laughing at the weights though...


 

No laughing here, your postings are one of the things, that got me started on 531. I appreciate your spreadsheets.

I'm just heading out of my 2nd cycle of 5/3/1 and so far I'm very pleased with it. I really like the deload week, to let my body recover and make me stronger. I feel fine but at my age, periodization training has been very helpful. I do realize my preparation would change to more volume for certain military schools. I just don't have anything to report on that.

A by product of this program is, I'm doing 20 dead hang pullups for the first time ever. I've been in the 15-18 category for a while. Not sure exactly why that is, but I'm attributing it to, my accessory exercises, 5/3/1 and changing my grip as Etype talked about somewhere on this forum.

My accessories have been: GHR's, planks, pull ups & tabata push ups. With 3 runs a week with 1 to 2 being 400m/800m sprint workouts.


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## SkrewzLoose (Mar 7, 2013)

Well, I was going to bitch about having an off day today (feeling old sucks) after a really good week...but then I realized surgicalcric is banging out burpees on his newly fitted prosthetic.  
It's all about perspective.  So, I'll just take it in stride.


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## DAVE101 (Mar 8, 2013)

DAVE101 said:


> SkrewzLoose said:
> 
> 
> > I don't fucking get it. How can 5# make such a difference??
> ...


 
When I posted this last week, I was having a "down" day. I went from 220x5 the previous week, to 225x2 that day. However, today I got 235x3 . I'm so glad I recognized it as just having an off day.

As long as you know when to auto-regulate, we can keep training and make progress in other ways.


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## Sendero (Mar 9, 2013)

I took some time this week, to lift some heavier weights for 1 rep, before heading into my next session.  I don't want to come off as a infomercial for 531, but it definitely made me stronger. I am very close to some personal lifting goals.

These are the maxes I made this week without going to failure.  If a lift takes me 3 seconds to complete, I don't go up in weight.

I'm 5'11 and 185 lbs.

Bench Press: 265
Military Press: 180
Dead Lift: 365 - I very rarely attempt dead lifts with this kind of weight, my last +1 week on 531 was 300.  I pulled this and am confident I can pull more.  
Squat: didn't do because I have a strained muscle.

This board has been a great source of knowledge for strength training, I appreciate everyone sharing.


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## SkrewzLoose (Apr 2, 2013)

Here's my latest...

Also, new 1RM after 7 4-week cycles. I don't know why I gained so little on my pressing movements, but I have an idea. I did my 1RM DL & bench on the same day and squat & OH press on the same day and in that order. Squat and DL are more complex lifts so I did them first. Would the physical exertion used in working up to a 1RM in one lift effect your ability to truly max out the other?
I'm extremely happy with where my 2 heavy lifts are now.

Bench: 195#, got a generous spot to get 200# up.
Up 10 pounds

Squat: 215#, failed at 220#
Up 30 pounds

DL: 315#, failed at 325#
Up 20 pounds

OH Press: 125#, failed at 130#
Up 10 pounds.


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## ThunderHorse (Apr 3, 2013)

So I converted the MA Strength and Honor program to a spread sheet, I like what's there but I definitely can see room for addition to it.  I'm going to start monday...looks like it's going to be a smoker.


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## DAVE101 (Apr 3, 2013)

Nice job on that 3rd wagon wheel, SL!


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## SkrewzLoose (Apr 3, 2013)

DAVE101 said:


> Nice job on that 3rd wagon wheel, SL!


Ha, took me a second to translate that in my head.  Thanks.  That might be my first ever, legitimate lift of over 300#.  I wish I could upload videos on here from my phone...


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## SkrewzLoose (Apr 10, 2013)

OK, really starting to "feel" old.  For the past 3 months or so, I've been getting (something similar to) pain in my left hip while squatting.  I do A LOT of stretching before, during and after my workouts on squat days.  I can usually stretch enough to where it doesn't bother me during my left, but as soon as I take the first step to rack the bar I can feel it.  I stretch for a few minutes, walk it off and I'm fine.  No lingering effects or anything like that.  
Going on the assumption that my form is not horribly flawed, does anyone have some suggestions as to how to alleviate this?  If I need to upload some videos, I'll try to figure out how.

On a separate note, I love that our gym on base has a room devoted to bumper plates, pull up bars and chalk.  However, if you're performing a lift where the weight does not touch the ground (squat, OH press, etc) DON'T use the fucking bumper plates.  Also, if you are doing an oly lift or some other lift where a bumper plate would be beneficial, just 1 on either side is enough to create the bumper effect.  You don't need 6 god damn 45# bumpers on the bar for your DL.  
That is all.


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## egm (Apr 10, 2013)

I've been doing the MA selection program for about 10 weeks now (yes, I repeated it) with some modifications to prepare for an upcoming SFRE.  Numbers at times are looking good so far, but there's always room for improvement.


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## Hillclimb (Jul 16, 2013)

Speaking of 5/3/1..(Sorry to bump an old thread, but I didn't want to clutter the forum with a new one)

I have have the new PDF "Beyond 5/3/1: Simple Training for Extraordinary Results" by Jim Wendler. Anyone interested in it can PM me.

It has a lot of good information in it. Many tree's were killed in the printing of it.


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## DAVE101 (Jul 16, 2013)

Jim Wendler's 5/3/1 2nd edition was the best, most thorough, fitness publication I've ever read. The only thing I don't like is his approach to diet: 

_"Bulking? Gallon of Milk a Day (GOMAD). Lactose intolerant? Grab some baby wipes, it's gonna get messy."_

_"Cutting? Drink whey protein before every meal."_ Since when is liquid calories a good idea while trying to lose weight?


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 18, 2013)

Cutting...maybe Whey protein for every meal.


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## ThunderHorse (Jul 18, 2013)

So I finished my second cycle of Strength and Honor about three weeks ago now, shitty thing happened.  I hurt my back some how, I was going to change up my training program, I have my sheets ready and then last Tuesday I woke up in tremendous back pain.  I didn't do my maxes after the first cycle, and then ended up a month out of the gym after that before I did the second cycle.  I don't even want to know where I'd be had I put in the sacrifice to be in the gym everyday last year when I was going through BOLC, wouldn't have gotten home until 2000 or after....but there would have been results.

Bench: 250
Squat: 285 (that went up fast from where I started reps)
Deadlift: 215
Front squat: 225
Power Clean: 165 (I've only done power cleans twice in my life, so I like that.)

Now I'm getting the run around from the PA at Nelson Clinic, no lady I do not have a back spasm.


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## SIG (Sep 19, 2013)

I would be very interested in getting opinions from the users of this forum in relation to PT tests and how relevant they are to job/task specificity. I appreciate I'm a new arrival, but I've been lurking on this site for a while and have seen some great discussions!

My opinion is that most forces PT tests don't replicate the _demands_ of the job or the _fitness capacities_ used in their jobs and are out of date.

First, most police forces entry and annual fitness tests tend to revlove around push ups, sit ups and 1.5 mile run. Any time I've been on duty I've never had to run at a steady pace, with no change of direction, for 1.5 miles. Likewise, dealing with violent prisoners requires total body strength and power. Push ups and sit ups do not replicate the situation or the force required.

Secondly, tests like APFT require good levels of muscular endurance and aerobic power, yet a soldier will need to carry heavy loads for lengthy periods of time (strength), short sprints to cover (anaerobic) etc. 

-Judging by the introduction of the RAW and Tactical Athlete Programmes, SOF and other units seems to be switching to job specific PT and PT tests.- 

I have been reading through the threads in here and most if not all users partake in Crossfit, Military Athlete, Starting Strength, Wendler etc. I'd imagine you all feel these better prepare you for your indivdual jobs as opposed to just calisthenics and running!?

A high score in the APFT and other similiar tests will mean you are physically fit, but, do you think it transfers to fit for job? Obviously, a large organisation that needs new bodies on a regular basis will want simple, easy to administer PT tests. But with the advent of Crossfit etc., why not introduce functional movement screens, strength/power tests etc to new entrants?

What are your opinions on PT tests and their relevance to your job?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 19, 2013)

SIG said:


> I would be very interested in getting opinions from the users of this forum in relation to PT tests and how relevant they are to job/task specificity. I appreciate I'm a new arrival, but I've been lurking on this site for a while and have seen some great discussions!
> 
> My opinion is that most forces PT tests don't replicate the _demands_ of the job or the _fitness capacities_ used in their jobs and are out of date.
> 
> ...



I think a base line standard fitness test is appropriate for a snap shot of fitness across the board, I see it as more of an administrative tool (I.e. promotions, unit readiness, unit evaluation). But I think most would agree that job specific fitness is more important and normally not properly represented in the yearly fitness test. 

Specifically from my experience as a grunt, soldiers need to be able to carry their weight in equipment at varying distances 8-12 miles, cross country (not just hard balling it). After they should be capable of running 1-2 miles in full battle rattle, to a weapon qual, be able to qualify, and then sprint another 500 meters to an assault house, conduct a live fire assault correctly, and than be able to proper asses and provide first aid, then evacuate a casualty by streatcher 500 meters off of the objective.

I think that would be a more accurate evaulation of fitness and weapons qual, building assault and casualty evacuation.


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 20, 2013)

I don't think any branch claims that their PT tests replicate anything.  It's just a baseline test used to asses someone's definition of "overall" physical fitness.


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## SIG (Sep 20, 2013)

An interesting study carried out on SEALs to see the relationship between certain lab tests and tactical fitness tests.. the latter seem functional and job specific e.g. 300 yd dash, weighted pull ups. They refer to them as 'tactically relevant tasks'. It's interesting because it suggests that these lab tests compliment job specific training. I'd be interested to see a similiar study carried out using an APFT type test. I'd imagine shoulder, knee and lumbar strength would not correlate as well with push ups and sit ups. It would also be interesting to see vo2 and lactacte correlating with 2 mile run.

http://www.pitt.edu/~neurolab/publications/2013/Abstracts/K.F.Allison_ACSM2013_Final.pdf


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## SIG (Sep 20, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> I don't think any branch claims that their PT tests replicate anything.  It's just a baseline test used to asses someone's definition of "overall" physical fitness.


Do the PT tests cover ''overall'' fitness (i.e. speed, agility, strength, anaerobic etc)? This is my point. Current PT tests are designed to assess a certain type of fitness(traditional - running and cals), with the assumption that that fitness transfers to job performance. Surely specificity should be the rule of thumb once personnel are in the job?

We've all seen guys and girls who can absolutely destroy 2 mile runs, but what are they like when climbing a 6ft wall with 60lbs of gear for example. My own experience is that when I was training for a marathon earlier this year, my best 2 mile test time was 12.15. I could run, but I could not do more than a few weighted pull ups. Which is more likely to arise in work?


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## goon175 (Sep 20, 2013)

SIG said:


> Do the PT tests cover ''overall'' fitness (i.e. speed, agility, strength, anaerobic etc)? This is my point. Current PT tests are designed to assess a certain type of fitness(traditional - running and cals), with the assumption that that fitness transfers to job performance. Surely specificity should be the rule of thumb once personnel are in the job?
> 
> We've all seen guys and girls who can absolutely destroy 2 mile runs, but what are they like when climbing a 6ft wall with 60lbs of gear for example. My own experience is that when I was training for a marathon earlier this year, my best 2 mile test time was 12.15. I could run, but I could not do more than a few weighted pull ups. Which is more likely to arise in work?



You want the real answer? PT tests are used as a means to numerically evaluate soldiers competing for promotion or schools. Also, it is used as a reason to get rid of under-performing soldiers.


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## SIG (Sep 20, 2013)

goon175 said:


> You want the real answer? PT tests are used as a means to numerically evaluate soldiers competing for promotion or schools. Also, it is used as a reason to get rid of under-performing soldiers.


I never thought otherwise but this could still be done using job specific PT tests! Even moreso in my opinion. A guy can train and become very good at push ups and sit ups, eventually doing well in a test.

However if the test is something along the lines of what was suggested by @JAB, then he has to have his shit together physically, tactically and technically. I think the RAW assessment is a good example of PT testing that is task/job specific but still gets rid of shitbags and qualifies guys for promotions etc.


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## SIG (Sep 20, 2013)

As an add on, I _assume_ the RAW assessment gets rid and promotes!


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## goon175 (Sep 20, 2013)

SIG said:


> I never thought otherwise but this could still be done using job specific PT tests! Even moreso in my opinion. A guy can train and become very good at push ups and sit ups, eventually doing well in a test.
> 
> However if the test is something along the lines of what was suggested by @JAB, then he has to have his shit together physically, tactically and technically. I think the RAW assessment is a good example of PT testing that is task/job specific but still gets rid of shitbags and qualifies guys for promotions etc.



Your absolutely correct, but the problem with more accurate testing is that feelings get hurt.


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## goon175 (Sep 20, 2013)

SIG said:


> As an add on, I _assume_ the RAW assessment gets rid and promotes!



The RAW assesment has nothing to do with promotions


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 20, 2013)

What percentage of the military do SEALs (from your post) comprise?

Not everyone in the military has to climb walls with gear on.

Do you really think the PT test is the only standard folks are held to once they report to their specific unit? 

Your attempt at an argument is flawed on several levels.

I'm curious SIG , what branch are you in?


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## SIG (Sep 20, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> What percentage of the military do SEALs (from your post) comprise?
> 
> Not everyone in the military has to climb walls with gear on.
> 
> ...


As I said in my introduction, I'm a reserve police officer.  I don't claim to know anything about military operations/programmes but as a S+C coach the physical demands interest me!

In fairness, I said nothing about standards of personnel in units. I was discussing PT testing and relevance of same to the job. I'm not for a minute suggesting people who ace the APFT aren't fit for purpose; I'm merely interested in debating the relevance and application of PT tests.

Would you care to point out how my argument is flawed on several levels? This is a discussion after all!


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## SIG (Sep 20, 2013)

goon175 said:


> The RAW assesment has nothing to do with promotions


I wasn't aware of that, thank you.

If I may ask, what is your opinion on the RAW assessment; any areas to improve?


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## enceladus (Sep 20, 2013)

I'm of the "if it aint broke, dont fix it" mentality.  I like the APFT because it's easy and takes about an hour to conduct,  requires no equipment short of a stopwatch, and generally indicates if a soldier is fit or not.

Like others have said, my company, for instance, has its own physical fitness requirements beyond the APFT....rucking, litter carry, buddy carry, obstacle course etc.  We focus our PT on the latter.  

To me, this is really a non-issue.  Conduct the APFT twice a year and move on.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 20, 2013)

@SIG I think we have answered your specific question. The basic PT test is nothing more than an administrative tool. It doesn't successfully asses physical fitness of specific jobs. In most career fields that require high level fitness, the assessment of fitness is set by a unit standard.

Example: most LEA's require a coopers cut physical fitness teat with 70% within the individuals age group. Where that same LEA's SWAT team will normally require the same test, but with 90% score. However, once assigned to the SWAT team, the team commander will set a readiness standard ans the team leader of the team you are assigned will set a higher standard specific to your job (entry team shieldman will be doing a lot shield drills, where the sniper/observer team will most likely not train with the shield, etc).

The base line PFT stays the same, but the unit defines the fitness assessment based on the unit/position need.


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## x SF med (Sep 20, 2013)

@SIG   ---  In the SOF community, PT Tests are something to Max, that's it...  a number to get out of the way when they're due.  The real training is during Team or individual time  at the gym, under a ruck, or practicing tactics, fully loaded for bear...  wearing your shit and getting it done...  and doing it over and over and over until it is second nature, and your gear is part of you...   the only way to evaluate that right now, is to do it with a Team.

I was part of a multifaceted test a looooooooooooong time ago...  ostensibly a 'rations test' (RLTW30) with many other components...  the comparisons of fitness/chemistries/changes in the SF centric portion were almost deal breakers for the researchers - starting, midline and ending values were tens of percentage points above the 'regular' Combat Arms soldiers tested ...  the initial and end of cycle fitness testing (complete scaled physio - Vo2, hydrostatic BMI, full blood profiles, mental/emotional baselining.... ) 4 days of tests front end and back end , with bloodwork during the field portion ... almost got the SF portion of the results thrown out - it was completely different than the results of regular Army....  far above the expectations overall... 

You are asking people who have an overall fitness/functional fitness level way above norm how to test or train others to that level....  you can't explain it to 'normal' people...  you get there for your Team and your buddies and the mission it's part of that life, and you laugh at PT tests as you're humping the ruck up a big friggin hill in the middle of the night with every sense at full alert...  because the PT test doesn't keep you alive...  everything else you've done to get into real shape keeps you alive.

MOO, YMMV


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## goon175 (Sep 20, 2013)

On the subject of the RAW assessment, I only did it once when the RAW program was just starting to be implemented. The whole RAW concept at the time was basically laughed at and ignored to be honest. I know it has evolved since then, but again I think it is for the most part business as usual. From what I understand the RAW assessment is still done, because people are told to do it from higher. So they knock it out one day and then "go do PT". Now, if you would like to see something that is more challenging and probably more job specific, check out the RPAT:

Ranger Physical Assessment Test (RPAT). The purpose of this test is to measure all components of fitness (strength, endurance, movement skills), using tactically relevant tasks.

CONDITIONS – Given a 3 mile course, RBA, MICH helmet, Skedco w/ 160-lbs load, 20-foot fast rope apparatus, 20-foot caving ladder apparatus and an 8-foot wall.

STANDARDS – Complete a 3-mile run and combat focused PT course in less than 1 hour. The event will be conducted at squad level, with the mindset that the Ranger is competing against himself. Each time the event is conducted, each Ranger should see constant improvement in his time and ability to negotiate the course.


Conduct a 2-mile run wearing ACUs, boots, RBA and MICH helmet. The run will begin and end at a 20-foot fast rope.


After the completion of the run, immediately climb the 20-foot fast rope and do a controlled descent.


When the rope climb is complete, drag a 160-pound SKEDCO litter 50 yards, turn round and drag it

back 50 yards to the start point.


Immediately following the SKEDCO pull, climb a 20-foot caving ladder and climb all the way back

down.


At the bottom of the Caving ladder, sprint 100 yards, turn around, sprint back 100 yards and climb over

the 8-foot wall.


Conduct a 1 mile run wearing ACUs, boots, RBA and MICH helmet. The run will begin and end at the

8-ft wall. Time stops when you cross the line at the 8-foot wall.


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## SIG (Sep 21, 2013)

@JAB I'm aware that most SWAT teams have their own additional tests and they are usually spot on when it comes to being job oriented. I suppose it is much the same in SOF, whereby they have their own physical readiness test.

@x SF med thanks for the insight. I appreciate that you guys see it as a formality and that it bares no weight on your perfomance in the field. 

I see where you are all coming from, in that most PT tests are just a box ticking exercise that do, after all, grade fitness levels. It's interesting to see that most units have their own PRT's. It makes sense, as each unit and it's individual members have their own physical needs in the job. I must admit I had forgotten that fact. Just like a cop on a bicycle needs a different type of fitness to a police diver.

Thanks for the replies, much appreciated!


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 6, 2013)

Getting back into (Beyond) 5/3/1 tomorrow.  Can't wait!!


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## Sendero (Oct 7, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Getting back into (Beyond) 5/3/1 tomorrow.  Can't wait!!



I look forward to following your progress.  I just started reading (Beyond) 5/3/1.  The original 5/3/1 program is the best raw strength program I've used to date.  Interested in the (Beyond) part of the new program.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 8, 2013)

I've made a couple changes.  Swapped out OH press for Clean & Jerk and I'm doing front squats vice back squats.


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## CDG (Oct 8, 2013)

SkrewzLoose said:


> I've made a couple changes.  Swapped out OH press for Clean & Jerk and I'm doing front squats vice back squats.



What's your reasoning behind these changes?


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 8, 2013)

CDG said:


> What's your reasoning behind these changes?


Variety.  I figured the 5/3/1 format could be applied to any lift that I'd like to see improvement on.
There's no "open gym" time at Invictus, so I don't have a chance to work on the strength aspect of my Oly lifts, more technique than anything.  The C&J incorporates a little bit of everything into it with a pressing movement at the end.  That's why I chose it vice the OH press.
Do you have other recommendations or do you suggest sticking with the big 4?


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## CDG (Oct 8, 2013)

I would caution against using a lift as complex as the C&J as a main lift in 5/3/1.  That final all-out set is much more difficult to employ with the Oly lifts.  The Oly lifts are form intensive and training them to failure is not a good way to get better.  It's one thing to miss on a 1RM attempt, it's another to go to muscle failure at 80%+.  Form will degrade before a failed rep, and you will end up reinforcing bad habits.  Not only that, but IMHO your risk for injury is much greater when trying to use a max set format with Oly lifts.  I incorporated C&Js/snatches in a few different ways when I was doing 5/3/1.  One way is to use them as an assistance lift.  Lighter weight, moderate reps, and enough rest to ensure fatigue is not going to affect form.  A second way is by using them in your conditioning workouts.  Focus on solid form (i.e. don't sacrifice form for time), but use lighter weight for higher reps in a couplet or triplet.  An example would be: 3 rounds of: C&J x 10, 100m sprint, snatch X 10, 100m sprint.  The third way to use them is to do them at a heavier weight before your main 5/3/1 workout.  When doing this I usually would C&J on squat day and snatch on deadlift day.  You won't fatigue yourself enough to affect your main lift by working up to a heavy set of 3, or even heavy singles.  You could check out some of the Oly programming from The Outlaw Way for solid examples.

If you want to take out the press, I would swap it for the push press.  The push press is still a pretty simple movement, and the limiting factor of needing the upper body strength to still press the weight for a partial ROM will limit you getting into weight so heavy that you risk injury by trying to lower it.  I would only use the jerk over the push press if you have access to jerk blocks.


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## Hillclimb (Oct 8, 2013)

Strict pressing on 531 had the slowest progress. I agree with going for push press the instead.

as far as oly lifts go, like CDG said, do em before your main lift.

Maybe instead of the 531 waves
week 1 5x3@70-75%
Week 2 5x2@75-85% 
Week 3 5x1@85-90% and go heavier for 3 more sets if you're feelin it to PR.

I've never done cleans with 531, but thats how I'd maybe do it on a squat day


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 8, 2013)

Thanks for the break down, brother.  PP it is.  
I'll also look into The Outlaw Way as well.


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## SIG (Oct 10, 2013)

What sort of running are you guys doing? Getting back into it last few weeks after a lay off to focus on some hypertrophy work!

Did 12x200m this morning and it hurt bad, but not as bad as I thought.


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## Hillclimb (Oct 12, 2013)

SIG said:


> What sort of running are you guys doing? Getting back into it last few weeks after a lay off to focus on some hypertrophy work!
> 
> Did 12x200m this morning and it hurt bad, but not as bad as I thought.



I like using sprints/intervals as a base for my run training.

Usually I'll hit 6-10x 200-400m's Tuesday, 4-6x 800-1000m's a Thursday, then a 5-10k for time on Saturdays.

If I do LSD runs too often, I get pretty drained in conjunction with my PT at the gym. With sprints, it doesnt affect my other PT too much. I had a tri coach do HR training by zone with me for 2-3 months, and I just about lost my mind with LSD running 5x a week.


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## SIG (Oct 13, 2013)

Hillclimb said:


> I like using sprints/intervals as a base for my run training.
> 
> Usually I'll hit 6-10x 200-400m's Tuesday, 4-6x 800-1000m's a Thursday, then a 5-10k for time on Saturdays.
> 
> If I do LSD runs too often, I get pretty drained in conjunction with my PT at the gym. With sprints, it doesnt affect my other PT too much. I had a tri coach do HR training by zone with me for 2-3 months, and I just about lost my mind with LSD running 5x a week.


We're pretty similiar there! I'm starting off with intervals once a week and LSD once too plus a swim. The intervals are anaerobic, so similiar energy system to lifting.. the beauty of it being they are compatible. LSD cripples strength training after a while, so once I did a marathon during the year I lowered the mileage and got more job specific.

LSD stuff is great though.. don't fatigue as easy throughout the day, and taking a deep breath means a _deep_ breath.  Ever done any hill sprint/repeats?


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## Hillclimb (Oct 13, 2013)

My swimming is usually LSD and staggered with my sprint days. For some reason I get bored with LSD running, but not so much with swimming. Its weird, but I havent been keeping up with my cardio since school started the last 3 weeks, and I feel like my recovery is off. I need to get back in the pool.

I'll do Hill sprints every now and again.  I actually did them yesterday 1hr after training with @reed11b . Worked up to a 220 snatch, 250 c&j and 285 frontsquat, then a 15 minute metcon. Ended up sleeping in until 2pm today. I feel like I got hit by a freight train.


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## SIG (Oct 14, 2013)

DOMS to death!!!

My swimming technique ain't great but endurance is good. Looking into the Combat Side Stroke, looks like a nice stroke to use.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 14, 2014)

Wanted to revive this thread for what it was...a place to post good weightlifting/exercise plans, programming, progress, advice etc...  Leave the Fran bashing and shit talking in the CF thread, please.
-I got a cruel reminder as to just how important the deload week is in 5/3/1.  I tried skipping it and adding weight in my next cycle, front squats kicked me in the face on my first day.
-I also ran an embarrassingly slow 5K (ended up being 3.2 miles) for my command.  I had been doing a 5K work up plan on RunKeeper (my GPS app for tracking all my runs) and it had me doing shorter runs and a few sprint days, which seems to be the common advice for working on relatively short distance runs.  Then I look back over the last year at some of my fastest times and I was doing a simple 2, 3 & 4 mile run every week.  That was it.  Maybe I was trying to fix something that wasn't broken.  I think I'm going to go back to that and see what happens.  
Thoughts from the peanut gallery?


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## SexyBeast (Aug 14, 2014)

Push press is one of, if not my most favorite lift....

Also low skill so you don't really have to worry about massive injuries due to fatigue, relatively speaking.


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 14, 2014)

SkrewzLoose said:


> -I also ran an embarrassingly slow 5K (ended up being 3.2 miles) for my command.  I had been doing a 5K work up plan on RunKeeper (my GPS app for tracking all my runs) and it had me doing shorter runs and a few sprint days, which seems to be the common advice for working on relatively short distance runs.  Then I look back over the last year at some of my fastest times and I was doing a simple 2, 3 & 4 mile run every week.  That was it.  Maybe I was trying to fix something that wasn't broken.  I think I'm going to go back to that and see what happens.
> Thoughts from the peanut gallery?



No idea without knowing what you've been doing over the last 6-8 weeks.  Overtraining?  Inadequate run training?  Bad week?  Too many factors and not enough info.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 15, 2014)

RustyShackleford said:


> No idea without knowing what you've been doing over the last 6-8 weeks.  Overtraining?  Inadequate run training?  Bad week?  Too many factors and not enough info.


It was a 5 week work up.
Week 1: 
M: 1.5 miles constant/steady pace
T: 45-60 mins cross training
Th: 1.5 miles constant/steady pace
F: 1.5 mile run
S: X-train

Week 2: 
M: 2 mile run
T: X-train
Th: 5 min warm up/1:00 sprint, 2:00 jog x 4/5:00 cool down
F: 2 mile run
S: X-train

The rest went basically like that.  Previously, like I said, just a simple 2, 3 & 4 mile run, not always in that order.  The 2 mile run I'd focus on speed.  3 & 4 mile runs were focused more on consistency and hitting negative splits.


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## RustyShackleford (Aug 15, 2014)

I don't know man.  I know for me, if I don't put in the time running, my times suffer.  A lot if guys try to find ways to train around it, but as the saying goes, if you want to get better at (insert event here), do that event.


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## CDG (Aug 16, 2014)

With something like a 5K you probably want to look into distance splits as opposed to timed splits.  400m, 800m and 1-mile repeats would be a better choice than 1:00/2:00 intervals.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 16, 2014)

CDG said:


> With something like a 5K you probably want to look into distance splits as opposed to timed splits.  400m, 800m and 1-mile repeats would be a better choice than 1:00/2:00 intervals.


Got it.  Thank you!!


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## swimr235 (Aug 27, 2014)

I find doing 3 x 1 mile time trials with 5 minutes rest in between gets just about every distance under a 5k faster and just makes the whole running experience better. I'd do this 3x a week: Day 1: 6x200m, 4x 400m, 2x800m. Rest is equal to effort. Day 3: 3x 1mile repeats, 5 mins rest. Day3: 1x800m, 3x 400m, 5x 200m. Rest is equal to effort. There is no rhyme or reason for any of the actual distances, times and intervals. It just works. Also, none of this should take longer than about 30-45 mins at the very longest. Easily slap a strength workout or metcon prior to or after this. Interesting enough, this works well for rowing and swimming as well. Swimming is, by far, my strong suit. Running is, by far, my worst. God do I hate running.


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## Ladder Guy (Aug 30, 2014)

SexyBeast said:


> Push press is one of, if not my most favorite lift....
> 
> Also low skill so you don't really have to worry about massive injuries due to fatigue, relatively speaking.



One constant issue I see with many at the gym is actually not using proper technique with the push press. Either people fail to activate their shoulders/traps/upper back, counter lean to 'balance' the weight, or take their spine/pelvis out of neutral and hyper extend themselves. Just from what I have seen this is not a low skill lift.


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## CDG (Aug 30, 2014)

Ladder Guy said:


> One constant issue I see with many at the gym is actually not using proper technique with the push press. Either people fail to activate their shoulders/traps/upper back, counter lean to 'balance' the weight, or take their spine/pelvis out of neutral and hyper extend themselves. Just from what I have seen this is not a low skill lift.



It's still a low skill lift in comparison to the snatch, clean, jerk, or clean and jerk.  People fuck up everything from air squats to bench press at the gym.  It usually has little to do with the movement.


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## Ladder Guy (Aug 30, 2014)

On that note, absolutely. I don't know if you ever watch gym fails on youtube but some of them we use for training of what not to do. Seriously, how do you mess up using the rower. I guess where there is a will there is a way


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## booker (Sep 3, 2014)

The world is full of fucktards, lucky for us they like to video themselves doing stupid shit in the gym.


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## reed11b (Sep 3, 2014)

There is already a Crossfit hate thread, no need to turn this into one.
I have been working on my own fitness programing and one of things I have noticed is that many of the Rx programs (MA, SEALfit, Gymjones etc,) is that they are seriously time heavy. Often times with close to 2 hour programing and sometimes two-a-days, with same length of programing per session. I could see maybe maintaining that as a FT combat arms type (I recall being released early more often than late) but as a Reservist (Guardsman) with a FT job and family two hour sessions are nearly impossible. Do the SME's on this board feel that type of programing is required to be in SOF candidate shape, or is it possible with 1hour to 45 min daily programing? Can you work smarter and get similar results?
I'll throw up what I have when I get done and track results, but I am coming from pretty low on the fitness scale, so I may not be the best test dummy.
Reed


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## booker (Sep 3, 2014)

IMHO SEALfit is way overboard in the amount of work, but it can be broken up throughout the day if that is your cup of tea.  I have followed the Operator template for GymJones for a long time, not sure where you are getting the 2 hr workouts from beyond the occasional >90 endurance event.  Same with Military Athlete, I don't recall having to spend an exorbitant amount of time on the workouts.  Things to keep in mind, unless you are doing pure strength work with 5 minute rest intervals, most of the work capacity events in MA and GJ are not meant to be hour long events.  If you feel like you require 2 hrs to complete to workouts, it may be time to think about scaling weight, sets, etc until you build yourself up to that amount of work.   You have to do the work in order to reap the benefits, this idea that you can cut corners and reach your desired level of fitness is bullshit.   FT job and only being in the guard are not good enough reasons to not work out.  I hit the gym at 5AM every day, and I work, and I have kids that need help with homework and sports.  Make your priorities, but don't expect there to be any shortcuts for the fitness side of things.


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## CDG (Sep 3, 2014)

reed11b said:


> There is already a Crossfit hate thread, no need to turn this into one.
> I have been working on my own fitness programing and one of things I have noticed is that many of the Rx programs (MA, SEALfit, Gymjones etc,) is that they are seriously time heavy. Often times with close to 2 hour programing and sometimes two-a-days, with same length of programing per session. I could see maybe maintaining that as a FT combat arms type (I recall being released early more often than late) but as a Reservist (Guardsman) with a FT job and family two hour sessions are nearly impossible. Do the SME's on this board feel that type of programing is required to be in SOF candidate shape, or is it possible with 1hour to 45 min daily programing? Can you work smarter and get similar results?
> I'll throw up what I have when I get done and track results, but I am coming from pretty low on the fitness scale, so I may not be the best test dummy.
> Reed


 
Unless it's a stamina or endurance based workout, MA rarely goes over 60 minutes.  In fact, the whole point of their regular sessions is to be right at that 60 minute mark, and Rob has even posted times where he's cut workouts back because they took too long.  If the regular sessions are taking you well beyond the 60:00 mark, I would suggest either scaling weights and/or reps back or looking into the On Ramp Program.


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 3, 2014)

Agree with the 2 above posts.  Also, my 5/3/1 sessions rarely go over 30 minutes, with assistance work.  Throw in 2-3 days of running or swimming, that shouldn't exceed 30-45 minutes either.  Lather, rinse, repeat.  
K.I.S.S.


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## Ladder Guy (Sep 4, 2014)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Agree with the 2 above posts.  Also, my 5/3/1 sessions rarely go over 30 minutes, with assistance work.  Throw in 2-3 days of running or swimming, that shouldn't exceed 30-45 minutes either.  Lather, rinse, repeat.
> K.I.S.S.



What are your exercises and assistance work that you use for the 5/3/1. I have done One Man One Barbell with Squat, Bench, Deadlift, Press and utilized lunges, dips, rows, side raises as assistance exercises.


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## RustyShackleford (Sep 4, 2014)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Agree with the 2 above posts.  Also, my 5/3/1 sessions rarely go over 30 minutes, with assistance work.  Throw in 2-3 days of running or swimming, that shouldn't exceed 30-45 minutes either.  Lather, rinse, repeat.
> K.I.S.S.


 
Might as well be a third person who agrees.  My workouts are done early in the morning and are typically 40-60 minutes in length.  Add in 1-3 days per week where I squeeze in some single track mtn biking as well and I am good to go (not part of PT, just to blow off steam or ride for the hell of it).

When it comes to endurance related work efforts, I find that I am better served with what is described above coupled with a decent diet/hydration as opposed to longer efforts.


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## Grizzlystr (Sep 4, 2014)

I apologize in advance if this has already been brought up in this thread, but I was reading through and the topic got derailed multiple times. I just jumped to the end. 

One of the questions I've always had when following programs or programming myself is where does the gym time really play in? I understand the benefits of slinging a barbell, but I've always believed that if you wanna get better at running, swimming, rucking, etc., then you gotta run, swim, ruck, etc. I still lift religiously, and that's not going to change, however, I've just often wondered why we lift as opposed to just doing what you need to improve on. Is it just supplementary for protecting against injury, or just for the overall endurance/strength side of the house?


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## RustyShackleford (Sep 5, 2014)

I do what I do in order to maintain a balance between strength and endurance.  It doesn't hurt that the end result is a 38 y/o male who can still put guys in their early 20s to shame in most physical and work related tasks. 

As to getting better at any one event, well, if I am training up for a race, my focus is on that event.  The bench press won't make me faster on a trail or road race but a little bit of lifting tied in with a shitload of running helps hold it all together.


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 5, 2014)

Ladder Guy said:


> What are your exercises and assistance work that you use for the 5/3/1. I have done One Man One Barbell with Squat, Bench, Deadlift, Press and utilized lunges, dips, rows, side raises as assistance exercises.


I keep it simple.

Bench press day: Dips, incline/decline DB press, push ups, flys
Squat day: In the hole squats, good mornings, OH squats, hamstring curls, GHD sit ups
OH press day: Arnold/seated BB presses, shoulder mobility with light weight or PVC/bands
DL day: Pull ups, DB rows, good mornings, GHD sit ups, rack DL, back extensions

My main focus is on the primary lift and mobility.  I have very little free time right now (thanks to my CoC) and I'm 32, so I stick with what Rusty mentioned above. 
5/3/1 takes up very little time as does running 3-4 miles.  I throw in a good 30-40 minute CF/HIIT WOD when I have the time because I still really enjoy that type of work. 

Grizzlystr , it depends on what your goals are.  If you only want to be fast, run 4-5 times a week and scale back the lifting to 2 days/week.  If you want to be strong, do the opposite.  If you want to be well rounded, you're going to have to find time to mix in a little bit of everything.  Again, I don't know what your goals are, so it's hard to answer your question.


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## booker (Sep 8, 2014)

You don't necessarily have to spend time in the gym, some of the great SF folks that were PT studs didn't spend much time in the gym, but given that the new generation of SF/SOF has to carry around armor, etc, the need to add on some mass is a legitimate goal for some folks, as well as injury proofing and providing a greater strength level than conventional bodyweight training, so yes, I think lifting is a necessity in today's military environment.  Does that mean that you are going to get all swole and be a slow ass and become a liability to your team?  No, it's all in how you dial in nutrition ,etc with your lifting.

Goon and others here  have provided evidence that the need for "running to improve run times" isn't necessary.  That being said, I think that rucking is a specialty type of exercise, and one that requires you to spend time under the tick to prepare you mentally and physically for that particular event, and there is no gym exercise that can simulate rucking..  I'm built to be a load bearing mule, not an 11:00 2 miler, so knowing what your strengths are will help you go a lot farther too.  YMMV.  It's always n=1, you have to find what works best for you.  That doesn't mean reinventing the wheel, but do the Bruce Lee thing and discard what isn't useful to you.


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 13, 2014)

Made it into the gym for the first time in about 2 weeks today.  I did my 3/3/3+ FS workout.
Then I did this as my "accessory work"...

http://www.crossfithyannis.com/911-memorial-wod/

-Scaled thrusters & push jerk to 115#
-Scaled HSPU to just slow negatives
-First time I have ever had to break up DL in a WOD
-First 2001 meter row averaged 2:04/500m, Second was 2:15/500m
-Absolute smoke session.  I haven't sweat through everything I was wearing since I did The Murph.


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## booker (Sep 15, 2014)

I did the same WOD, but ran 1.25 miles in lieu instead of rowing twice.  Did the run first, which turned out to be a god send, although the row at the end was a very good mental exercise, finished the row just shy of 7 minutes.  Thrusters were by far the worst movement, but 11 reps of HSPUs seemed like an eternity as well.  Good workout in all.


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## CBA (Sep 22, 2014)

Hello everyone. I want to thank everyone who contributed to this thread, as it has been very insightful.

I just finished MA's Bodyweight 1 plan last week, and wanted to have a go at designing my own programming for a few weeks, working with a sandbag I made this weekend (somewhere around 75#, but I'm not sure). This is based almost entirely on the structure of the bodyweight plan, but mixed with their 4 week run-improvement plan. I had one that had less running, but after reading a current RASP attendee say that running _very_ quickly is important, I cut back on the strength to three days (from four), and amped up running to three days (from two).

Some of the stuff I'm unsure about, and won't know if it will work for sure until I do it. After this week I'll revise to make it more or less difficult, according to how I handle this week.

Let me know what you think of this 1) in general and 2) as a selection (RASP) prep plan. This is my first try at programming, and I wanted to see how successful it would be.

 

Thanks

Conor


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## CDG (Sep 22, 2014)

Programming for yourself is difficult.  It's very easy to fall into the habit of not programming what you need to work on and justifying extra days off or reduced volume.  I don't know how far out from RASP you are, but MA has a RASP plan.  I would suggest just using that.  Experiment with your own programming when you don't have as much riding on it.


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 22, 2014)

There are also a few guys around here who have completed RASP within the last 12 months or so.  They might be a good source regarding what kind of training would be best and where to cut back or add to your current regimen.


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## CBA (Sep 22, 2014)

CDG said:


> Programming for yourself is difficult.  It's very easy to fall into the habit of not programming what you need to work on and justifying extra days off or reduced volume.  I don't know how far out from RASP you are, but MA has a RASP plan.  I would suggest just using that.  Experiment with your own programming when you don't have as much riding on it.



Thank you for the advice. Yes, it is difficult. I think running is my biggest weakness. I don't even ship out for Basic for almost a year, so I have quite a lot of time. I have my eye on the RASP plan, and definitely will use it before Basic, so I was hoping to come up with some stuff to do in the meantime. I had my eye on the MA Sandbag, Dumbell, and weight vest plan, but this is my attempt to do something similar for myself (and free). If I'm unsuccessful I will certainly get the MA plan. I really enjoyed Bodyweight 1, and like their training philosophy.



SkrewzLoose said:


> There are also a few guys around here who have completed RASP within the last 12 months or so.  They might be a good source regarding what kind of training would be best and where to cut back or add to your current regimen.



That would be great. I'm a mentee on ArmyRanger.com as well, and that's where I heard about the speed running emphasis from a current (Week 4 or 5, I think) RASP attendee. 

Thanks again for the suggestions.


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## CDG (Sep 22, 2014)

CBA said:


> Thank you for the advice. Yes, it is difficult. I think running is my biggest weakness. I don't even ship out for Basic for almost a year, so I have quite a lot of time. I have my eye on the RASP plan, and definitely will use it before Basic, so I was hoping to come up with some stuff to do in the meantime. I had my eye on the MA Sandbag, Dumbell, and weight vest plan, but this is my attempt to do something similar for myself (and free). If I'm unsuccessful I will certainly get the MA plan. I really enjoyed Bodyweight 1, and like their training philosophy.



Check out SOFWODs or TF Black for free programming that's SOF oriented.


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## goon175 (Sep 24, 2014)

Yeah, RASP is definitely a running mans game. Not that you should skimp on the other stuff, but I think someone who is a good runner but mediocre strength will do better than someone that is great in the strength department but mediocre at running. The goal is to be well rounded though, and with the amount of time you have, I would focus on mobility stuff like crazy as that will prevent injury once you get into the real deal. Many a stud has fallen by the wayside due to injury that many times could have been prevented with mobility prep months in advance.


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## CBA (Sep 24, 2014)

CDG said:


> Check out SOFWODs or TF Black for free programming that's SOF oriented.



Thanks. I have looked at both, but don't have the time or money to get into a gym regularly.  



goon175 said:


> Yeah, RASP is definitely a running mans game. Not that you should skimp on the other stuff, but I think someone who is a good runner but mediocre strength will do better than someone that is great in the strength department but mediocre at running. The goal is to be well rounded though, and with the amount of time you have, I would focus on mobility stuff like crazy as that will prevent injury once you get into the real deal. Many a stud has fallen by the wayside due to injury that many times could have been prevented with mobility prep months in advance.



Thank you, Ranger goon175. By mobility prep do you mean stretching and rolling, or something else? I have a good stretching book (_Stretching Your Boundaries_ by Al Kavadlo), and have been meaning to get into rolling for a while.


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## SkrewzLoose (Sep 24, 2014)

Someone should make mwod.com a sticky here and in the SOF Prep section with big red arrows pointing to it.


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## CBA (Sep 24, 2014)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Someone should make mwod.com a sticky here and in the SOF Prep section with big red arrows pointing to it.



Yes, after I posted that message I remembered mwod and checked it out before school started. Thanks again for the reminder.


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## goon175 (Sep 24, 2014)

and don't forget yoga.


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## CBA (Sep 28, 2014)

Thanks again for the pointer to MWod. I borrowed (stole) the kids' tube of tennis balls, cut up a cheap bike inner tube, and have been hitting myself with those nightly. The tack and floss has helped immensely with some elbow issues I've been having the past week (the beginnings of tendinitis), and the tennis balls have helped with very sore calves.


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## SkrewzLoose (Oct 3, 2014)

In case anyone is interested today or tomorrow...

“Mogadishu Mile”

4 RFT:

19 KB Snatches (each arm)
19 KB Goblet Squat
19 KB Push-Ups (each arm)
400m KB Run

(You are not to lose contact with your KB at any time during the WOD. If your hands leave the kettlebell, you will be served a 5 burpee penalty to be served immediately.)

The Mogadishu Mile refers to a route that was run by United States Army Rangers and Delta Force soldiers from a helicopter crash site to an appointed rally point held by the 10th Mountain Division on National Street during the Battle of Mogadishu (Somalia) on October 4, 1993.


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## HeavyRuck (Apr 4, 2015)

CDG said:


> Check out SOFWODs or TF Black for free programming that's SOF oriented.



I concur with the above statements. I tend to through in a mixture of TF Black, MA, and my most recent finding: Stew Smith Recon Prep, throughout the week. TF Black is great and I love how I am done within 1 hour. But some training sessions last 2:30 hours due to the long endurance events (rucking). And plus, [Name auto-filtered; he is not welcome here] is one great Coach/Mentor/Writer/Motivator. I started looking at the Stew Smith Recon Prep since I am prepping for Recon while stationed in South America, and it is lethal. I can't do some of the events since they require a Run, Swim, Ruck all in one session. I have to drive to the pool which is only open for 2 hours in the morning, and I can only ruck at night (due to OPSEC). I really want to complete the program, but some just require too much time...

The below is just in the second week of training.

Spec Ops triathlon
4 mile run
swim 1000m with fins
4 mile Ruck march with
25-40 lbs

^That is around 2 hours, maybe more depending on fitness level.

Sorry for the long rant. I really wanted to put my two cents in after reading everyone else's about the amount of time these training sessions take. I do apologize for any punctuation errors cited in my above comments (taking online courses at the moment to better my writing and literature). 
I hope this helps someone here find a great program. Consistency is key. Mount up, lean foward, and step it the heck out!

-HR


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## Dienekes (Apr 17, 2015)

I figured this is as good a place as any to ask this. I understand how everyone feels about weightlifting, and with a background in powerlifting, I agree as far as anything legs is concerned. I was a powerlifter in high school and graduated with Squat-460, Deadlift-400, Bench-315. Decent numbers, but I would like to get better. My coaches never significantly trained anything other than the big muscles excluding shoulders, abs, and lower back (probably led to the weak deadlift). It was always a short circuit thrown in at the end of training. However, for all upper body and core (including lower back), has anyone ever considered gymnastics strength progessions? My thought process is this:

When I would work with my dad, and we had to move heavy shit from A to B, he would destroy me despite being 20lbs smaller and weaker as far as the gym numbers that he said he ever did. I attributed that to gym muscle-me-being different from functional muscle-him(dad has been a logger for well over 20 years), and I am trying to build a solid base using gymnastics strength progressions that lead to what they call multi-planar strength(Ex: Planche and Free-standing HSPU) instead of single plane motion like bench and OHP. I like this because it is impossible to progress without shoring up your weakest link, therefore, building a solid base in all connective tissue and smaller muscles, and I would believe lead to being more injury resistant. I didn't workout for 2 years after high school and am progressing rather quickly due to former training. My regimen at this point in time is almost completely bodyweight, but I use cinderblocks for kettlebell swings and high-rep front squats, thrusters and presses. When I approach the point of slowing gains from the high-rep leg exercises, I will return to the weights. Most likely this summer. Time is not an issue as I have over 2 years until I graduate.

Article on gymnastics strength training here: https://www.t-nation.com/training/all-muscle-no-iron

My schedule:
3 days on: Strength-Muscular Endurance and Conditioning(the main calisthenics and cinderblocks)-Strength
1 day off- Stretching and Mobility

3 days on: opposite of 1st
1 day off: same

As many microcycles of this as I can handle until I start seeing diminishing returns, then recovery week which consists of 1 week half volume. Thank god for foam rollers and lacrosse balls

This combination puts me on a weird 8 day microcycle instead of the normal week, but I like it better than 6x a week with 1 day off because it allows me to keep my intensity up. On Strength days I finish with runs (alt. longer distance with short and fast) and Muscular Endurance&Conditioning days with sprints. When funds improve in the summer, I am getting a ruck and good boots and will swap out two runs for rucks.

As you might have guessed from the powerlifting background, I never ran 2 miles in my life. I tried months ago to progress too quickly running and ended up with shin splints. Now, I am taking the 15% rule to heart and raising the distance slowly. All the focused core work definitely helps with the running.


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## ThunderHorse (Apr 21, 2015)

I'd love to have those numbers and then be able to run forever.


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## Six-Two (Apr 30, 2015)

Does anybody have any Yoga recommendations? Been working in light Hatha routines from YouTube lately, but I'd love to find something with more targeted applications to military endurance.


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## racing_kitty (Apr 30, 2015)

I've heard good things about the DDP yoga videos. A bit more man-friendly.


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## SkrewzLoose (Apr 30, 2015)

Six-Two said:


> Does anybody have any Yoga recommendations? Been working in light Hatha routines from YouTube lately, but I'd love to find something with more targeted applications to military endurance.


Are you looking for stretching/mobility or are you trying to get your Zen on as well? Or are you in it for the yoga pants? (serious questions)


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## Six-Two (Apr 30, 2015)

Thanks Kitty, I'll check 'em out.


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## Six-Two (Apr 30, 2015)

SkrewzLoose said:


> Are you looking for stretching/mobility or are you trying to get your Zen on as well? Or are you in it for the yoga pants? (serious questions)



Definitely stretching/mobility and also hopefully core strength for running, but a little Zen never hurt anybody. I could definitely benefit from it. As far as yoga pants, I practice in my living room, which is free of Lululemon-clad posteriors. But I moved back to LA, so... Throw a rock. 

...It'll probably bounce off an ass in stretchy pants and land in a kale smoothie.


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## SkrewzLoose (Apr 30, 2015)

Mobilitywod.com


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## Six-Two (Apr 30, 2015)

Thanks @SkrewzLoose, I'll check it out further.


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## amorris127289 (Apr 30, 2015)

Six-Two said:


> Thanks @SkrewzLoose, I'll check it out further.


In addition to KStar with the Mwod, I suggest searching for woddoc on YouTube. He is currently doing a project 365 that you can follow if you would like!


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## Lunch Pail (Dec 16, 2015)

http://hprc-online.org/physical-fitness/files/STRENGTHTRAINING.pdf

This is an article I found called _Strength Training for the Warfighter_ published in the Journal of Strength and Conditioning Research I thought may be of interest.  Fairly basic, but a good read nonetheless.  To my eyes, it looks like they advocate programming similar to Pat McNamara’s _Combat Strength Training_.



I have no formal education on the topic of strength training and realize I know somewhere between jack and shit, so I was hoping to bounce ideas off members of the site.  Right now, I am focusing on military “sport-specific” training with some deadlifts, squats, and weighted pullups added.  I am still lean at 5’10”, 164, age: 22 with weak numbers on the main lifts.  I have not benched in months, but my most recent working sets before the foot injury was: Squat (185x5)x3, Deadlift (255x3)x3, Pullup (BW+50x5)x3.  While surely not perfect, I do all lifts with as strict a form as possible, especially no kipping pull ups.

To my knowledge, the type of programming advocated in the article above and by Pat McNamara is ideal for those with an already strong base in the main lifts.  I obviously do not have that, and while this discussion is irrelevant in the near future as I go through initial training, my hope is to be able to hit the ground running with a well thought-out plan, regardless of where I end up.

My initial goal is to get the main lifts to respectable numbers while learning some of the key Olympic Lifts.  Research has led me to believe that the first step should be to increase muscle cross-sectional area through mainly high volume, moderate intensity workouts.  In Chad Wesley Smith’s recently released (Dec 2015) _Juggernaut Training: A Thoughtful Pursuit of Strength_, one of the auxiliary programs given was the Championship Program.  The first 4 weeks include a hypertrophy phase that I was planning on being my first step.  The program rotates variations of the main lifts with assistance exercises and varying (low, medium, high) intensity days.  Additionally, in his previous book, _The Juggernaut Method 2.0_, he advocated using medicine balls as an alternative for people lacking skill in the Olympic Lifts.  Below, I will provide the link to the video showing the throws, but my plan was to use these while learning the Oly Lifts.

My main point of uncertainty is how long this hypertrophy phase should be.  I was thinking 8-12 weeks. After building muscle, the plan is to begin one of the many cookie-cutter programs such as 5/3/1, Juggernaut Method, or Military Athlete.

Hopefully I am on the right track, but if not I would appreciate a nudge in the right direction.  Additionally, I enjoy reading about this, so I am up for some recommendations.  My next two books I plan on purchasing at some point are; _Becoming a Supple Leopard_ by Kelly Starrett and _Scientific Principles of Strength Training_ by Chad Wesley Smith, Dr. James Hoffmann, and Dr. Mike Israetel.  Eventually I would like to build up enough knowledge to program for myself, but I realize many years of research and time under the bar is needed before that can happen.  Thanks for the time spent reading this.


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## x SF med (Dec 17, 2015)

@Lunch Pail  - you are not mentioning anything about stretching or limbering exercises...  they are very important in your chosen course...  you need to work on your flexibility NOW, before you really tighten up and lose ROM.


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## Lunch Pail (Dec 17, 2015)

@x SF med - Understood.  I did not mention it in this question, but I have become a huge proponent of "pre-hab".  In my foot injury thread, I mentioned this as one of the first things I learned from this site.  While it could always improve, I perform a fairly comprehensive routine 4-5 times a week at night, alternating static stretching and foam rolling.  I pay special attention to calf flexibility and rolling/stretching the IT band due to their relation to injuries commonly experienced in SOF pipelines.  I have done this over the past year or so and my flexibility has improved drastically.  Furthermore, the book I mentioned as next on my "to buy" list is authored by Kelly Starrett, the creator of MobilityWOD referenced a few posts above.

The main thing I am working on now is shoulder/chest mobility in order to perform a correct OH squat.


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## Lunch Pail (Dec 17, 2015)

Unrelated to my question above, but I have found some resources this past week I thought were worth sharing.

HES 403: Exercise Physiology  - YouTube <-- This is a link to an individual's YouTube account who recorded an entire semester of an Exercise Physiology class.  In the comments of the Intro Lecture video, he says it is from Colorado State University and the text book used is; _Exercise Physiology: Human Bioenergetics & It's Application_ (Fourth Edition)" by George A. Brooks, Thomas D. Fahey, Kenneth M. Baldwin.  So far, I have watched the first two lectures.  After an overview, he begins with the macro-nutrients and how they produce ATP.  So far, the professor is fairly entertaining and engages with the class often.

KinesiologyCollege <-- Not quite as formal and not sure of the source, but this is the homepage to a YouTube channel titled KinesiologyCollege.  If you click the video tab and sort oldest-newest, there are a number of decent videos.


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## DocIllinois (Dec 17, 2015)

Lunch Pail said:


> @x SF med - Understood.  I did not mention it in this question, but I have become a huge proponent of "pre-hab".  In my foot injury thread, I mentioned this as one of the first things I learned from this site.  While it could always improve, I perform a fairly comprehensive routine 4-5 times a week at night, alternating static stretching and foam rolling.  I pay special attention to calf flexibility and rolling/stretching the IT band due to their relation to injuries commonly experienced in SOF pipelines.  I have done this over the past year or so and my flexibility has improved drastically.  Furthermore, the book I mentioned as next on my "to buy" list is authored by Kelly Starrett, the creator of MobilityWOD referenced a few posts above.
> 
> The main thing I am working on now is shoulder/chest mobility in order to perform a correct OH squat.



I concur with the Troll - flexibility and bendi-ness stuff is critical at the moment.  


FWIW, I have been to some Infantry/ cool guy related schools at this point.

There were positively skinny guys in every class who could hang with the "cross-sectional area" muscle dudes in every way.

Lifting gym stuff was never an expectation during the training day (/night) that I can recall.  (Lack of sleep/water/ nutrients may have occasionally placed the brain memory group into checkfire, though.)

G2 the shit out of any course you're about to undertake and design a well organized training plan accordingly.

My $.02.


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## x SF med (Dec 17, 2015)

DocIllinois said:


> G2 the shit out of any course you're about to undertake and design a well organized training plan accordingly.



Doc, you did not just say this, did you?  At least Not about selection type courses...  because, you know that this advice is frowned upon here and on another site we both frequent...

NOTE to all - the requirements for all military Courses are out there, and you should get copies of pertinent information prior to attending, but hard G2ing of Selection Courses can get you removed from a course and impact your career negatively - either on the giving or receiving end of the G2...  just to let you know...

@DocIllinois  is 100% correct about functional strength over being a total gym muscle guy...  balance the bulk with litheness...  it will serve you best.


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## Lunch Pail (Dec 17, 2015)

Thanks @DocIllinois.  What you said makes a lot of sense.  The reasoning behind my question is that I want to be formulating a plan to reach a good height/weight ratio that allows me to be strong, fast, and powerful while performing duties inherent to the job.  I realize that I am not where I want to be and want to have an idea of where to begin.  My goal is to be able to think for myself instead of just choosing random plans.  As you mention in your post, it seems that training for a selection course or something similar is different than how those doing the job train.  Right now, I am focusing on running, strength-endurance through calisthenics, and the occasional heavy squat, deadlift, weighted pullup, and kettlebell swing.

I used the term "muscle cross-sectional area" because if I simply used muscle size, I thought my intentions may be misconstrued towards bodybuilding.  Most of my knowledge comes from Powerlifting/Strongman sources.  Just so we are on the same page, this is a good summary of how I am thinking:

"Muscle strength in the adult human is relative to cross section
area (size). An equal cross-sectional area of muscle from any average
trained women or man has about the same 'strength' (i.e.: can generate the
same amount of force, 6 kg - cm2), there is very little variation. To put
it another way, generally speaking - all human muscle tissue has (about)
the same amount of strength, or is able to generate the same amount of
force. So the greater the size, cross-sectional, the greater the strength.
However, it is important to point out that bone structure, muscle
attachments, neural factors, etc., play a very important part in
performing 'feats of strength', so two people with equal cross section
areas of muscle may still perform very differently -- not due to stronger
muscle tissue, but due to other factors."

Therefore, my thought was that it would be a good idea to get on a hypertrophy program once I am assigned somewhere.  I realize there may be some circumstances that might prevent this, but it never hurts to have a plan.  The idea was to build the muscle and then capitalize on that with low-to-moderate volume, high intensity work.  Pretty much a power-lifting periodization style, but instead of hypertrophy-->strength-->peaking, I was thinking hypertrophy-->strength-->work capacity as the 3 mesocycles.  What @x SF med said is my goal, I am trying to figure out the steps.

My goal is not to be a Freak Beast


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## DocIllinois (Dec 17, 2015)

x SF med said:


> Doc, you did not just say this, did you?  At least Not about selection type courses...  because, you know that this advice is frowned upon here and on another site we both frequent...
> 
> NOTE to all - the requirements for all military Courses are out there, and you should get copies of pertinent information prior to attending, but hard G2ing of Selection Courses can get you removed from a course and impact your career negatively - either on the giving or receiving end of the G2...  just to let you know...



This is correct and I amend my statement accordingly.  Gather intel from officially released information.

This personal policy of mine shouldn't be applied broadly to guide decisions or achieve outcomes.


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## chocolateboy (Aug 25, 2016)

When people in military circles mention Kelly Starrett it gives me a warm fuzzy feeling in my belly, said fuzzy feeling tells me things are going to start looking brighter in military fitness.


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## ThunderHorse (Aug 25, 2016)

My response to this article was...I already knew this stuff man...and so does the Army: Army physical (un)fitness: A system that promotes injury | ArmyTimes


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## Dienekes (May 24, 2018)

I am reviving an older thread because the title and discussions were the most germane to what I'm posting. Plus, I'd honestly like to see it revived and to compare informed notes with people in better shape than me.

First off, I'd like to discuss what seems to have been a pretty massive change in the "functional fitness" industry over the past couple years to focus on training energy systems rather than specific things like strength, run times, etc. Something that has been highly touted is the concept of "building the aerobic engine" through LSS cardio but switching it up often to avoid overuse: bike, row, swim, heavy bag, jump rope, running. Purported benefits: specific cardiac adaptations which make you better at LSS, but also more efficient energy systems in tackling the more glycolytic and anaerobic CrossFit style stuff and faster recovery. 

Secondly, I'd like to ask about an idea that I can't put a title too: making strength and conditioning separate and preventing creep. For example, most people will lower rest times or make 4 exercise supersets back to back which make the training more metabolic conditioning rather than strength-focused. Purported problems: sacrificing potential strength gains and stressing your system too often which results in feeling drained and eventual injury or forced deloading. Personally, I've noticed that I do get better body comp doing this short term but eventually just get way too drained to keep adding weight to the bar.

Many of the websites that I've followed to learn have suggested focusing primarily on aerobic work and maximal strength or alactic work (<10s efforts) with some lactic work (10-120s efforts) sprinkled in while avoiding going glycolytic very often (anything over 2 mins more strenuous than LSS).

Anecdotally, I had about a 6 week bout of the glycolytic-focused stuff and I was seriously drained at the end of the mesocycle, like bad. Then, I found this stuff about base building and had some serious gains in 6 weeks. I went from struggling to run 3 miles continuously to being able to run for an hour and reaching an 8:30 5-mile  running only twice a week with 1 long ruck a week. Additionally, I couldn't hit 7km in 30 minutes rowing, and at the end of this mesocycle, I hit 15km in less than 70 mins (@7 on the Concept 2, not 10). Granted, over this time the strength work was put aside for very high rep, low weight stuff and calisthenics. This was the problem. Although I lost absolutely no strength and even gained some in multiple areas, I felt week as shit under the bar and in life in general. Body composition did get better as well under this, but that was likely the very focused diet.

Has anyone been able to hit a happy medium in their programming between strength and LSS? If so, how? Are you against LSS in so many areas because of the SAID principle? Do you generally shun LSS and still make solid gains at an acceptable pace?

Getting more into the details of this anecdote. During the second mesocycle, I conducted the LSS in the morning fasted with BCAAs after reading this study about the gains that can be made for men. I also had a lot of time on my hands and did THIS for recovery which could have made a massive difference. I definitely think that doing both contributed to my gains significantly. 

Caveats about fasted training if you liked the study: 
1. anything well over an hour such as a moderately heavy ruck over 6 miles will absolutely break you off, I wouldn't do it and don't suggest it. 
2. Same for really high rep calisthenics over 45 mins and the like, it will make the workouts very difficult to finish


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## runninrunninrunnin (May 24, 2018)

I agree. Easy efforts are the king. Throw in some manageable higher intensity efforts every week. Like 8x100m sprints with a full recovery or 3x1 @90% of max to keep neurological responses. THEN throw in the instense workouts when you want to be at peak fitness before an event, race, meet, etc.

One of the best lessons I’ve learned is that peak fitness doesn’t last for long!

Great post!


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## Kheenbish (May 24, 2018)

Follow Soflete, they know their stuff. Even Olympic athletes have a coach. Drop the BCAAs they're overrated, pick up some whey protein and creatine from a reputable company for recovery.


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## Dienekes (May 24, 2018)

I have whey, creatine, casein, track macros and eat clean-ish most of the time, do intermittent fasting and focus on meal timing. Hell I even drink that sleepy-time tea BS my girlfriend introduced me to to help me sleep better--honestly it ain't bad. Even SOFLETE sells a sleep aid supplement. I have the BCAAs because they have been proven to prevent excess protein breakdown during fasted training though effects are negligible under most other circumstances.  I've done my best to nail down all the minor details, and I've made a lot of progress on the major ones like programming and diet. I'd just hoped to get the discussion going on programming again because it's fun to talk about and learn.


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## runninrunninrunnin (May 24, 2018)

I lift and do calisthenics Mon, Wed, Friday. I’m in a caloric surplus at the moment so my focus is hyperthropy. Every other week I will include a heavy squat day and a deadlift day if I feel good.

I run 7 days a week with doubles (AM slow run, PM easy run) on Mon, Tues, Wed, Friday.
Since all my mileage right now is between 60-76% of max HR I do 8x100m strides @10-15 seconds below my mile pace on grass with a full recovery, to help maintain leg turnover. I do them Mon, Wed, Friday after the PM run. Thursday is a steady run. Saturday is a long run. Sunday is a short recovery run.

Ice baths and 15 minutes of static stretching 3-4 times a week. 

Works for me. Everyone’s different, I’m sure someone will think my programming looks dumb. I’m sure I’ll think the same about theirs.


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## ThunderHorse (May 24, 2018)

Dienekes said:


> I am reviving an older thread because the title and discussions were the most germane to what I'm posting. Plus, I'd honestly like to see it revived and to compare informed notes with people in better shape than me.
> 
> First off, I'd like to discuss what seems to have been a pretty massive change in the "functional fitness" industry over the past couple years to focus on training energy systems rather than specific things like strength, run times, etc. Something that has been highly touted is the concept of "building the aerobic engine" through LSS cardio but switching it up often to avoid overuse: bike, row, swim, heavy bag, jump rope, running. Purported benefits: specific cardiac adaptations which make you better at LSS, but also more efficient energy systems in tackling the more glycolytic and anaerobic CrossFit style stuff and faster recovery.
> 
> ...


That's a lot of shit to talk about.  For the most part when I was a PL did all of the PT planning.  We did some pretty insane stuff like a half mile of lunges...yeah my senior scout and I had some fun ideas about PT.

Most of PT in the Army will probably remain built around Aerobic fitness which isn't a bad thing.  I always felt that the perfect soldier would look like a linebacker but be able to run marathons at a good clip...I happened to not be that genetically gifted.

We're all different.  I always split the workouts because we could never get our hands on enough weights and most of my guys lifted in the evenings.  We ran a lot, but we also alternated what we did.  So I'd reserve a spin class ever two weeks or so and same with the pool.  I tried to have at least three low-impact days per month.  For weights I focused around power movements.


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## Stretcher Jockey (May 24, 2018)

So since we are talking about fitness, Ill jump in and add my programing. Specifically I have been training for my second strongman competition which is this Saturday. My programing has been 4 days/week of strength, but in these workouts I have a section for adding in strongman specific movements (yokes, farmer carry, frame walks, etc.) or if Im not prepping for a comp, conditioning. 

All of my strength training is a waved periodization based off a 1RM that gets tested every 9-18 weeks. Since the program is 9 weeks long, I either do it once or twice before I work up to a 1 rep again. Better for the long term in regards to joint health (which I then negate when I lift ridiculously heavy in my comps). I also add on a lot of recovery everyday to help relieve the musce soreness. Foam rolling, active recovery, and static stretching mainly, but also emphasizing good sleep habits and proper nutrition. I own a subscription to ROMWOD which is a crossfit affiliated yoga program. Crossfit you say? Disgusting! However the knowledge shared by them on recovery and stretching is actually very solid.

After I compete this weekend, I plan on doing my same strength routine but substituting in more running, biking, and swimming since I plan on doing a triathalon sometime within the next year. While Im not excedingly strong or fast, I can still run my mile and a half in 9:45, max out all the calisthenics, and comfortably run a sub 23 5k. Looking to pump those numbers up, but slow gainz are the goal here.


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## Stretcher Jockey (May 27, 2018)

Update on my strongman competition:
Weighed in at 162 and was in the Novice Lightweight mens category.
Hit a PR on my log clean and press at 160.
PR on my deadlift at 405. 
Had the soul sucked out of my body on a 20ft 500lb yoke.
Placed 4th on a 350lb frame carry 40ft in 6.21 seconds.
Overall was top 5 in my weight class. Doesnt feel too bad though since top 3 were all over 180 and their numbers werent too far away from mine. Because it was the novice category, the max BW allowed was 220 and the guy who won was definitely up there. Overall, 2 PRs and a good showing in the other 2 events. Time for a week of rest, and training for my first triathalon. Hope everyone had a solid weekend of either training or boozing.


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## Dienekes (Jun 15, 2018)

Looking at some of the more experienced members here, What are some of the benchmarks with which you assess your fitness. Do you use stuff out of MTI (the old MA), UBRR, etc., or do you have some specific work capacity events, not too technical CrossFit workouts, or anything not commonly thought of? I'm looking for a solid couple of tests that I can use to assess my fitness and track changes over time outside of the typical 1 rep maxes and 5k run, X mile ruck. Obviously those have their uses, but I'm thinking something along the lines of work capacity, stamina, and power endurance that may not be so widely known. So far I'm thinking:

3RM of the typical lifts including weighted dips and pullups (I've found that a 5RM doesn't accurately assess ability to explode out of the bottom with heavier weight and 1RM doesn't accurately predict strength endurance: at one point in time I pulled 325 for 10 but could only get 365 off the ground)
100m Farmer Carry find max weight- maybe lengthen the distance? I would use a yoke but I've never even seen one
5k Run- maybe a 10k?
3hr ruck @ 45lb plus water for distance
2k Row- low impact test for continuous work capacity and speed endurance
MURPH for best time- short running and high rep calisthenics for muscular endurance (no vest as I don't have one)
OPT Repeatability Test-_3 rounds- find total work time- _ability to recover or "come back and do it again"

_Row 250m_
_10 Kettlebell Swings 70/53lbs_
_10 Burpees_
_10 Kettlebell Swings 70/53lbs_
_10 Burpees_
_10 Kettlebell Swings 70/53lbs_
_Row 250m_
_Rest 12 minutes between rounds_.
Anything that the experienced/"in killer shape" people think could be subbed out for something better? I'm sure there are many, and I'll be throwing in things like KBs, maybe Olympic lifts, etc. in training, but I don't want to spend much time drilling skills or technique when I can only learn some things from YouTube videos and could spend time on more appropriate things.


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## CDG (Jun 15, 2018)

Mountain Tactical has several tests. The new Tier 2 OFT from the Air Force is a good test as well. MTI has a plan for it.


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## Devildoc (Jun 15, 2018)

@Dienekes , one's metrics should reflect one's goals.  What are your goals?

As I am almost 50 with spinal compression fractures and herniated disc, my goals are functional fitness, weight maintenance, and cardiovascular health; so my metrics are based around activities that support those.  

That said, when I was a young buck doing the things you mentioned, I just kept a log and kept track of the times/weights.  If I noticed times starting to lag or inability to increase weight, I would focus on those areas.  I used commonly-available statistics and monitored:  if the mean for a 5K run for a 180-pound 45-year-old male is 21 minutes, and I was OK with being 1 or two SDs from the mean, I would set up my running workout to pound out a 5K in 22:30.


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