# Can you really come out of Army basic an E4?



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 20, 2014)

Someone I know, told me that his wife is leaving MEPs and heading for basic.  She signed up for 89D (EOD) and is going in as an E4 Specialist.

Really?  Someone with no military experience can come out of basic as an NCO?


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## DA SWO (Oct 20, 2014)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Someone I know, told me that his wife is leaving MEPs and heading for basic.  She signed up for 89D (EOD) and is going in as an E4 Specialist.
> 
> Really?  Someone with no military experience can come out of basic as an NCO?


SPC isn't an NCO.
Believable, 6 year contract with College Credits.  AF has a couple of ways to come out of Basic as an E-3.


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## Florida173 (Oct 20, 2014)

Army specialist isn't an NCO


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## Marauder06 (Oct 20, 2014)

@goon175 was a recruiter, he can probably answer your question more authoritatively than I.  That said:

1) specialist (E4) is not an NCO in the Army, corporal (E4) is.  AFAIK, no one comes out of basic as a corporal.
2) yes you can leave basic as an E4, if you have a high education level and/or highly selective skills.  It was pretty common in my company in Korea.


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## Totentanz (Oct 20, 2014)

Yes.  There were several when I went through (I was one myself).  Some are 09S (Officer Candidates - four-year degree is both a requirement for that MOS and automatically confers E-4 rank), others are simply people who had a bachelor's or higher and chose to enlist.


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## pardus (Oct 20, 2014)

You can enlist as an E4 with a college degree. 
As has been previously stated, the normal E4 rank in the Army is a Specialist, Corporal is also an E4, but that is an NCO rank. That would come later and generally only for specific MOS's.


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## Ooh-Rah (Oct 20, 2014)

Thanks guys...I was not aware that the Army had two ranks for E4.


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 20, 2014)

Corporal or Specialist. Corporal's baby NCO and in the Army, more pissed off than a Corps one to boot IMHO since they have all the responsibility with no additional pay inferred to compensate compared to a linear progression like ya'll have.


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## goon175 (Oct 21, 2014)

Yup, as others stated an E-4 going into Basic either has a college degree or enlisted under ACASP.


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## goon175 (Oct 21, 2014)

No crazier than officers who commission as Majors or Lieutenant Colonels IMO.


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## Teufel (Oct 21, 2014)

@Ooh-Rah is surprised because there is literally no way you can do this in the Marine Corps.  We also don't have a specialist rank so an E-4 is an NCO for us.  I had a 1st Sgt who was a 75th Ranger Regiment Ranger who got out of the Army as a SFC (I won't say why on the public forum, PM me for details if you want) and joined the Marine Corps.  He was given the rank of E-2/PFC for his experience and was promoted to E-3/LCpl for being honor man at bootcamp.  He was a rock star, obviously, and was promoted to Gunnery Sergeant around his 7 year mark and was the bane of my existence as my company GySgt at the Naval Academy while I was there.  As a midshipmen...ummm I required some mentorship and dynamic leadership.  Next slide please.  Several years later he was my company 1st Sergeant in the infantry in Iraq and is now a Sergeant Major somewhere.


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## Centermass (Oct 21, 2014)

The entry level E-4 is nothing new to the Army. They've were doing this back when I first enlisted.


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## pardus (Oct 21, 2014)

I want to add that I think enlisting as an E4 is a very bad idea. It's the foundation for shitty NCOs IMO.


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## RetPara (Oct 21, 2014)

I can straight into the Army as a Specialist.....  with 17 months TIG....   but I was still on my inactive Marine Reserve and had been a Marine Sergeant for 17 months.....


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## reed11b (Oct 21, 2014)

pardus said:


> i want to add that I think enlisting as an E4 is a very bad idea. It's the foundation for shitty NCOs IMO.


 I have never seen someone enlist as an E-4 and be fastracked to E-5 unless they did one of the traditional fasttrack methods such as Ranger school. If anything, they took far longer to ever get E-5. That said, I do agree that enlisting as an E-4 is a bad deal for the Army and the individual. Just for different reasons.
Reed


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## Florida173 (Oct 21, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> Corporal's baby NCO and in the Army, more pissed off than a Corps one to boot IMHO since they have all the responsibility with no additional pay inferred to compensate compared to a linear progression like ya'll have



A lot of people seem to think corporal was common on the infantry side, but in my experience the infantry will ultimately just promote you if there is confidence in your ability.  No reason for additional paperwork when not needed.


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 21, 2014)

Actually, it was pretty common.  MTOE of 6 E-5's, 4 E-6'es, and 2-3 gun team leaders depending on if it's a regular or Ranger platoon.... gun team leaders all got corporal basically instantly.


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## pardus (Oct 21, 2014)

reed11b said:


> I have never seen someone enlist as an E-4 and be fastracked to E-5 unless they did one of the traditional fasttrack methods such as Ranger school. If anything, they took far longer to ever get E-5. That said, I do agree that enlisting as an E-4 is a bad deal for the Army and the individual. Just for different reasons.
> Reed



I didn't say anything about them being fast-tracked, and yes I have seen that happen, three times off the top of my head, one even bumped me out of an E5 slot, graduated AIT while I was deployed, 3 months later an E5.

The reason I said it makes a foundation for a shitty NCO, is not for speed from 4 to 5, but the fact that they skipped the lower ranks and the time it takes to move through them, which is vital time they need to become proficient at their jobs and as a Soldier. Soldier's generally need time to be whipped into shape, particularly now when that is not being done at basic and AIT.


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## Totentanz (Oct 21, 2014)

reed11b said:


> I have never seen someone enlist as an E-4 and be fastracked to E-5 unless they did one of the traditional fasttrack methods such as Ranger school. If anything, they took far longer to ever get E-5. That said, I do agree that enlisting as an E-4 is a bad deal for the Army and the individual. Just for different reasons.
> Reed


 
I agree with the first part of your statement; I never saw someone fast-tracked out of E-4.  The same TIS requirement applies...

Would you mind elaborating on your "bad deal" comment?  I don't have a particular opinion on the subject, just curious what "different reasons" you had in mind.


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## pardus (Oct 21, 2014)

Totentanz said:


> The same TIS requirement applies...



Hmm, that makes me wonder how those others got promoted so fast...


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## AWP (Oct 21, 2014)

TIS and TIMIG can be waivered.


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## racing_kitty (Oct 21, 2014)

pardus said:


> Hmm, that makes me wonder how those others got promoted so fast...



Fellatio and waivers.  Nothing more.

I went through EOD school with a corporal.  He thought he was hot shit because he was a corporal, combat arms, etc etc.  Never mind that we justifiably called him CPL Crisco.  He graduated from Eglin as a corporal, and was back to being a specialist as soon as he finished in-processing his gaining post (hell, he was STILL sitting at E-4 with a weight problem when my name came out on the E-6 list).  You see, Army EOD doesn't have any slots for corporals.  You're either a sergeant, or you aren't.  There's no gray area.  The responsibilities inherent with each rank make it that way.

There are other units that simply don't allow for corporals, either.  Throughout my time in signal, the only corporals I saw in my battalion were the NBC NCO for Charlie Co., and a mechanic and a TACSAT guy in my company.  That was it.  Otherwise, they were most likely in a combat arms MOS that my tropo van was stuck supporting.

I've seen quite a few privates fast track to E-5, too.  That comes from never going to the field because you're getting all the schools, and actually having time to study flash cards for board after board, after board in between all the waivers that for TIS/TIG were applied for.  Strictly political, and it pissed me off.


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## pardus (Oct 21, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> TIS and TIMIG can be waivered.





racing_kitty said:


> Fellatio and waivers.  Nothing more.
> .



Yeah, must have been. 
Also in the Guard when you enlist your TIS and TIG starts immediately, and you may not ship to basic for 6mths or more, all the while TIS/TIG is ticking by...


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## Grunt (Oct 21, 2014)

Dang, I was just glad I got to graduate boot camp as an E-2 for getting two people to enlist before reporting to MCRD....


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## 0699 (Oct 21, 2014)

Teufel said:


> @Ooh-Rah is surprised because there is literally no way you can do this in the Marine Corps.


 
Back in the late 80s, I worked with a guy who got out of the Army as a SSgt after 8 years or so.  He then joined the Corps (because he was a dumb ass who couldn't support his wife and five kids in the outside world) and came in as a corporal.  Didn't go to boot camp; they sent him to corporal's course and from there straight to the fleet.  We used to fuck with him and tell him he wasn't a real Marine because he didn't go to boot camp.

He used to claim that corporal's course was the same as boot camp.


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## AWP (Oct 21, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> That comes from never going to the field because you're getting all the schools, and actually having time to study flash cards for board after board, after board in between all the waivers that for TIS/TIG were applied for.  Strictly political, and it pissed me off.


 
I've had two AD Signal NCO's complain to me, this is across a decade no less, that the shitbirds who don't know their jobs won't deploy. Don't deploy = more time to study, more time for a Bach. degree, etc. and that = better promotion rates for shitbirds.


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## Totentanz (Oct 21, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> TIS and TIMIG can be waivered.



Hmmm I don't doubt it; waivers were used for E1-E4, but I never even heard of them being discussed for NCO promotions.  Interesting...


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## AWP (Oct 21, 2014)

Tables 3-3 and 3-4, Pages 25 and 26:

http://www.apd.army.mil/pdffiles/r600_8_19.pdf


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## reed11b (Oct 21, 2014)

pardus said:


> I didn't say anything about them being fast-tracked, and yes I have seen that happen, three times off the top of my head, one even bumped me out of an E5 slot, graduated AIT while I was deployed, 3 months later an E5.
> 
> The reason I said it makes a foundation for a shitty NCO, is not for speed from 4 to 5, but the fact that they skipped the lower ranks and the time it takes to move through them, which is vital time they need to become proficient at their jobs and as a Soldier. Soldier's generally need time to be whipped into shape, particularly now when that is not being done at basic and AIT.


The Guard is it's own beast. Active duty, I didn't see it happen. Most of the college educated E-4's were a little more mature and smarter than your average 18 year old private. They made great soldiers in my book, but had a hard time adjusting to not being in charge (yes, kind of like you are saying) and it's a stop gap measure to recruit them instead of having them go as officers. The officer route is a far better deal for college educated individuals. Of course I think ALL officers should be enlisted first, but that is a different argument.
Reed


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## x SF med (Oct 21, 2014)

I started basic as an E-3, and when I hit SFQC immediately got promoted to E-4 (I had already been to BAC and a couple of leadership schools while in College).


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## Polar Bear (Oct 21, 2014)

Way back when you could graduate college and not go officer and be an E-4. I never applied my college and went in as a E-1.


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## Tropicana98 (Oct 22, 2014)

I'm in the target group being discussed and I don't personally feel I'll be an inferior NCO when the time comes. However, that probably has a great deal to do with where I am.


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## Ranger Psych (Oct 22, 2014)

Totentanz said:


> Hmmm I don't doubt it; waivers were used for E1-E4, but I never even heard of them being discussed for NCO promotions.  Interesting...



it's not so much waivers as having someone shit hot and secondary zone capable, considering you only need 16 months TIS to get your SGT (and E-5 in/around 2 years isn't unheard of in Regiment if there's positions and you're shit hot tabbed and obliterate any obstacles in your path).


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## pardus (Oct 22, 2014)

Tropicana98 said:


> I'm in the target group being discussed and I don't personally feel I'll be an inferior NCO when the time comes. However, that probably has a great deal to do with where I am.





Ranger Psych said:


> it's not so much waivers as having someone shit hot and secondary zone capable, considering you only need 16 months TIS to get your SGT (and E-5 in/around 2 years isn't unheard of in Regiment if there's positions and you're shit hot tabbed and obliterate any obstacles in your path).



Clearly Rangers are above and beyond my statement that an E4 is a bad place to start/bad foundation for an NCO. 
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------



To be further clarify, a bad foundation doesn't mean that's a guarantee of a bad NCO.


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## AWP (Oct 22, 2014)

Generally speaking, comparing a Ranger NCO with say...a Signal or Quartermaster NCO is like comparing apples and lightsabers.


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## x SF med (Oct 22, 2014)

Wait till the drawdown really hits..... and the TIS and TIG numbers go through the roof, points go back up to the 900-999 range and waivers get denied due to TO&E requirements being enforces along with every other requirement....  been there...  ain't pretty.  People have gotten used to accelerated promotions due to the OPTEMPO...  the Combat Arms, 7 in 7 and 8 in 9,  is going away...  and it is not going to be pretty.


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## pardus (Oct 22, 2014)

Bro, my quartermaster AIT was basically the same as Ranger school.


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## x SF med (Oct 22, 2014)

@pardus  -  why did you post 30metric tons of shit in a 9lb sausage casing....  I just threw up.


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## Polar Bear (Oct 22, 2014)

x SF med said:


> Wait till the drawdown really hits..... and the TIS and TIG numbers go through the roof, points go back up to the 900-999 range and waivers get denied due to TO&E requirements being enforces along with every other requirement....  been there...  ain't pretty.  People have gotten used to accelerated promotions due to the OPTEMPO...  the Combat Arms, 7 in 7 and 8 in 9,  is going away...  and it is not going to be pretty.


Yep lowest points I saw while in 850


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## x SF med (Oct 22, 2014)

Polar Bear said:


> Yep lowest points I saw while in 850



990 for 91B (now 68W), 999 for 11B, No TO&E for Cpl to SGT in 18 Series...  needed a waiver from SOCOM to get to the board...  and there were guys in front of me.  by the time I got to the board.... I definitely had TIS/TIG, schools, PLDC, BNOC and good evals...   But my PT score was only a 289, because I am not a runner...


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## Brill (Oct 23, 2014)

x SF med said:


> (I had already been to BAC and a couple of leadership schools while in College).



Next you'll say keg stands were counted as PT!


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## racing_kitty (Oct 23, 2014)

lindy said:


> Next you'll say keg stands were counted as PT!



And what, pray tell, is wrong with that???  :-"


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## Marine0311 (Oct 23, 2014)

racing_kitty said:


> And what, pray tell, is wrong with that???  :-"



Nothing as long as there was proper supervision by a panel of experts.


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## BloodStripe (Oct 24, 2014)

Supervision is the most important step in a five paragraph order.


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