# A question on recoil control?



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 26, 2008)

I spent 2 years in a USAR marksmanship unit, teaching small arms and competing. In most cases I would always run a M16, due to that is what was available. I had taken a CQM course recently, and noticed that the recoil on the M16 was pushing my sights off the target, slowing down controlled pair shots. I have always used the tucked in type grip for shooting the M4/ M16 (I.e. cupping the mag well with my non firing hand) and tucking my arms as close to my body as I can. 

My question is, when shooting CQM would it be easer to control the recoil. If I push my non firing hand out toward the sling swivel vs. cupping the mag well?


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## RustyShackleford (Jan 26, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> My question is, when shooting CQM would it be easer to control the recoil. If I push my non firing hand out toward the sling swivel vs. cupping the mag well?




I would think so.  Granted, it is usually shooter preference-or rather whatever works best, but I always taught my guys to put their non-firing hand out under the rail, vice using the mag well.  IMO, using the mag well would create a 'pendulum' effect when you shoot.  If you want to grip or grab something, use a front pistol grip.


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## CPTAUSRET (Jan 26, 2008)

RustyShackleford said:


> I would think so.  Granted, it is usually shooter preference-or rather whatever works best, but I always taught my guys to put their non-firing hand out under the rail, vice using the mag well.  IMO, using the mag well would create a 'pendulum' effect when you shoot.  If you want to grip or grab something, use a front pistol grip.



Concur, though I have never fired one with a front pistol grip.  

Carried the hell out of a Car-15, as it was the only weapon which would fit behind the back seat of a Cobra.


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## The91Bravo (Jan 26, 2008)

The hydraulic buffer from Buffer Technologies, is the item of choice with the guys at 5th SFAUC.  'B.G' said that it reduced his pairs big time, and allowed him to remain on target much more easily.

about 80-100 for a buffer but......


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 26, 2008)

The91Bravo said:


> The hydraulic buffer from Buffer Technologies, is the item of choice with the guys at 5th SFAUC.  'B.G' said that it reduced his pairs big time, and allowed him to remain on target much more easily.
> 
> about 80-100 for a buffer but......



Thank you!!!


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## Operator (Jan 26, 2008)

If you dont have a vertical foregrip it`s much more comfortable to hold your non firing hand on the magazine well, true.
But..-
Especially when your firing rifles on a bit longer distances, you should keep your non firing hand as far out on the foregrip as you can. You control your recoil better, and you can swing your rifle in different directions faster with more control.

This is "by the book" accurate rifle shooting.

On shorter distances, it doesnt matter too much especially with lighter smg`s, and ESPECIALLY when you got to keep your weapon up and ready from the moment you breach the door until the operation is over.


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## HeloMedic1171 (Jan 28, 2008)

this has been a wellspring for me.  thanks guys. :)


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## pardus (Jan 28, 2008)

Operator said:


> If you dont have a vertical foregrip it`s much more comfortable to hold your non firing hand on the magazine well, true.
> But..-
> *Especially when your firing rifles on a bit longer distances, you should keep your non firing hand as far out on the foregrip as you can. You control your recoil better,* and you can swing your rifle in different directions faster with more control.
> 
> ...



I was a firearms instructor back home between hangovers, this is true!
Dont hold the magwell.


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## QC (Jan 28, 2008)

Bro, a while ago we were exposed to a technique whereby the butt of the rifle was placed firmly at your waist/stomach height with one hand on the trigger and the other on the fore grip and close in, this proved quite accurate over 25 metres for instinctive shooting. It's probably outdated now but any thoughts?


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## pardus (Jan 28, 2008)

Mate I was a lead scout, I was taught to fire accurately on full auto from the hip, I could do it well everytime, though I will say I was kind of a natural with that, once I felt the level of the rifle, I was OK with it.

It should only be used in very close ranges but is a valid position.
Anyone who doubts this get them to reasearch the SAS etc... during WW2, the majority of modern warfare was perfected then and the SAS/SOE used that shooting technique then, both units are the forfathers of ALL specops/intel orgs in the western world today (AFAIK).


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## pardus (Jan 28, 2008)

Hmm read your post again, butt was in the center of your gut? I held to the side.
I held the forgrip midway down the stock (well its a Steyr, you know. I held the forward grip in the folded position.)


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## QC (Jan 28, 2008)

It was quite accurate over 25m and yes, held tight, centre. The only problem was if you stood feet parallel, you tended to be pushed over backwards if you let rip. So, yes it would be more stable at the side. It was a Beirut militia thing.


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## pardus (Jan 28, 2008)

Who the fuck taught you a beruit miltia thing!?

Not exactly know for a high kill ratio!

Butt at the hip, 30 rd mag in one burst or more all at torso height, easy with a 5.56 and stable!


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## QC (Jan 28, 2008)

Kewl.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 28, 2008)

Well in today’s environment, the hip shooting won’t fly… PID (positive identification) and all that good stuff.

I believe in align the sights move the trigger… Anything out side of that, is a waste of ammo for me. I have been to a lot of reactive shooting courses, and was told it is the way to go. However, it has proved ineffective for me. Sims force on force, and real deal. In my experience, which is small compared to most. I have realized that the longer you take to pick up your sights, the longer it takes for the threat to fall down. Now I would use it in the safety zone (i.e. six feet and in) But the reaction time vs. the ability to pick up sights is too small. If I had the time to pick up sights at a foot away I would.


As for the forward end grip, like what’s on the RAS. I would use those when available, but I still always mounted it closer to the mag well. 

As for long range shooting, I shoot very well tucked in at the mag well.
 I use a low prone (rest the mag on the ground) 
Kneeling I grab at the mag well, and tuck my support elbow in side of my thigh, 
Sitting I use the Indian style (both elbows rested on knees) type shooting position, 
And long range standing I use a standard NRA Hi power shooting position.

My main reason for asking, was that I have seen a few videos of SOFD and some other SF guys using a standing position “CQM shooting”. These people were on the move, running, and gunning. Well they were all garbing closer towards the sling swivel, and bladed their body a little more then I do. I was wondering if that might be a steadier type of control for the weapon. 

My accuracy is top notch, I am just wondering if I can speed up. By changing my grip and stance???


Again thanks guys for all the awesome info!:)


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## QC (Jan 28, 2008)

Yes, granted the hip thang is obsolete. The technique was something we tried one day to see how it went and it was found wanting. I was doing some tyre kicking to see if anyone had a different view.


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## 8'Duece (Jan 28, 2008)

Limited experience here:

Larry Vickers taught me not to use the mag well with my support hand. Without a forward grip it's better to grab the handrails farther up front and thus pulling the rifle into your shoulder tightly, bending at the waist slightly to aborb recoil with the weight of the upper torso. 

I've seen alot of new guy's with rifles standing completley up straight and slightly bent rearward at the waist.  This only give the rifle more room and less soldiity of the upper torso to recoil more than putting putting your body weight into the stock of the rifle. 

Pretty simple for me, and yes I keep my elbows out of the "chicken wing" thing.


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## pardus (Jan 28, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> Well in today’s environment, the hip shooting won’t fly… PID (positive identification) and all that good stuff.



Yeah the hip thing was done in close country and was not 'the' way to shoot. It was a quick burst then bring the rifle into the shoulder.

But I could sustain a mag on full auto if needed (well If I wanted to play lol)


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## Operator (Jan 28, 2008)

pardus762 said:


> I was a firearms instructor back home between hangovers, this is true!
> Dont hold the magwell.



Haha, I can picture you as an Instructor looking like the guy in your avatar Pardus. The poor rookie barely managed to shoot a picture of your face before he was smacked, tagged and bagged right after he forgot the safety on his rifle


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## pardus (Jan 28, 2008)

I would yell at them "If I see that fucking finger inside the trigger guard again when you aren't shooting I'll break it!"  lol


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## Operator (Jan 28, 2008)

J.A.B. said:


> I use a low prone *(rest the mag on the ground)*



Madness i tell ya!

-

It`s true that many of the more experienced shooters hold their hand on the mag well no matter what and can shoot just as good.


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## gunnerjohn (Jan 28, 2008)

This just to poke a stick at Pardus and the recoil thing...
Sorry this is not on You Tube, but you will understand what we in Oregon consider fun recoil.


[ame="http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=26109939"]http://myspacetv.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&videoid=26109939[/ame]


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## pardus (Jan 28, 2008)

WTF? LOL!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 28, 2008)

82ndtrooper said:


> Limited experience here:
> 
> Larry Vickers taught me not to use the mag well with my support hand. Without a forward grip it's better to grab the handrails farther up front and thus pulling the rifle into your shoulder tightly, bending at the waist slightly to aborb recoil with the weight of the upper torso.
> 
> ...



How was Larry Vickers training? I have heard nothing but the best about him. I even sent him an email a few days ago about the same question, no response as of yet  But as I said, Vickers seems to have the right information....


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## Pete031 (Jan 28, 2008)

What I have learned is that, you may want to bring your rifle out of your shoulder and into your chest more. 
Granted this is better when wearing plates, But if you bend at the waste, like a fighting stance, keep your elbows in, face the threat, and keep the weapon centered. You may find a difference. 
I can dump a mag on auto with this and get within a 12 inch group, and I can get sub MOA on repetition. 
It also allows you to gain the muscle memory needed for good tranistion drills.
This is what I have been taught... From our big boys here in Canada. It's all adopted from the Blackwater training levels... 
Not saying it is the best.... But it is what works for me. It is always harder to do these drills with a full length rifle, vs a carbine, or sub machine gun, however the principals are the same.
Keep everything centered, tucked and tight.


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## QC (Jan 28, 2008)

Sounds logical. Is this over open sites or aimed shots?


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## Pete031 (Jan 28, 2008)

Usually with an eotech type or Iron sight. We had some ACOG's with the Eotech type holograph on top. Those were pretty good. Eotech is the best for close range and medium instictive shooting in my opinion.


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## QC (Jan 28, 2008)

I forgot to add;over what distance were you getting a group like that?


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## Pete031 (Jan 28, 2008)

With Auto, no more then 7 meters or so. Not very far, but you would only dump a mag on auto at someone for very certain circumstances.


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## QC (Jan 29, 2008)

OK, Thanks  ;)


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jan 29, 2008)

Operator said:


> Madness i tell ya!
> 
> -
> 
> It`s true that many of the more experienced shooters hold their hand on the mag well no matter what and can shoot just as good.



In a perfect world, we would have our bipod or a sandbag. We would have MK 262 mod 1 and not M855, we would have an ACOG. We would have the time to watch the wind, and time to dope the rifle.:uhh:

Reality is far far different.

Resting on the mag is a bitch, especially when you have your kit on with plates. Nevertheless, the platform is solid as solid gets. I have shot an M16 A2 regular iron, nothing special. No bipod, no special ammo. Resting on the mag at 600 yards, and stayed under 2 MOA. This is really good considering the M16A2 with M855 is only supposed to hold 3MOA.:2c:


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