# California Shooting.



## Rapid (Dec 2, 2015)

'20 victims' in California shooting - BBC News



> The San Bernardino Fire Department tweeted that it was responding to a "*20 victim shooting incident*" and it was working to clear the scene.
> 
> It is *still a "very active scene" *and police are trying to secure the building, said a spokeswoman from the San Bernardino Police Department.
> 
> *There may be up to three gunmen she said, and the shooters were heavily armed and possibly wearing body armour.*




The fuck? I know this is still breaking news, but I hope this isn't what I think it is.


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## TLDR20 (Dec 2, 2015)

Rapid said:


> '20 victims' in California shooting - BBC News
> 
> 
> 
> The fuck? I know this is still breaking news, but I hope this isn't what I think it is.



CNN said it may be another planned Parenthood thing.


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## Rapid (Dec 2, 2015)

The BBC is reporting it as a "social services facility" now. But up to three guys and possibly body armour? Seems excessive for those types, but shit, who knows now...


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## TLDR20 (Dec 2, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> CNN said it may be another planned Parenthood thing.



That seems to have been incorrect


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## JBS (Dec 2, 2015)

It's a shame when my reaction to these headlines is to wonder if it's a domestic shooter or a Muslim extremist.


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## Rapid (Dec 2, 2015)

Over the police scanner, one officer to another, mentions one suspect's name may be "Sa'id".


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## Salt USMC (Dec 2, 2015)

San Bernardino County Live Audio Feeds

Scroll down to "San Bernardino Police System 10"


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## SpitfireV (Dec 2, 2015)

Yeah let's not jump to conclusions until the dust has settled and solid information is out there.


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## Gunz (Dec 2, 2015)

SpitfireV said:


> Yeah let's not jump to conclusions until the dust has settled and solid information is out there.


 
Yes, after Columbine I gave up trying to type mass shooters prematurely.


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## Rapid (Dec 2, 2015)

A big if... but IF this turns out to be an ISIS-inspired or ISIS-planned operation, how would Obama respond to this? If at all.


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## x SF med (Dec 2, 2015)

Rapid said:


> A big if... but IF this turns out to be an ISIS-inspired or ISIS-planned operation, how would Obama respond to this? If at all.



workplace violence, or abusive childhoods, and as always, BAN THE EVIL GUNS!!!!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 2, 2015)

We better hope and pray its not a ISIS inspired attack, because if it is, it will open the Pandora's box (it will start happening all over) I was posting about earlier, that apparently nobody fears or takes seriously.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 2, 2015)

x SF med said:


> workplace violence, or abusive childhoods, and as always, BAN THE EVIL GUNS!!!!



Hate b/c that's exactly what will happen and it makes me mad as hell. But you're right.


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## Rapid (Dec 2, 2015)

Whoever it is, they shot up a place for developmentally disabled people. Fucking disgusting -- not that other shootings aren't. But who goes and shoots people who have the mental capacity of a child or infant?

There are not many people capable of something so sick, but I can think of one group. The other possibility (as it usually is the case with, e.g., school shootings) is that these are people who are severely mentally sick themselves. But this coordination/their escape doesn't seem like something pulled off by some whackos. This, again, brings me back to my earlier suspicions. Of course, they are just suspicions for now...


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 2, 2015)

Listening to the feed Deathy posted above...credit to the woman dispatcher.  Cool and calm.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 2, 2015)

Listening to San Berno press conf right now...

From Police Chief:

- 3 shooters involved
- At least 14 dead plus additional 14 wounded
- Suspects have fled in dark SUV
- No racial description of suspects available


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## Blizzard (Dec 2, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Whoever it is, they shot up a place for developmentally disabled people. Fucking disgusting -- not that other shootings aren't. But who goes and shoots people who have the mental capacity of a child or infant?


Reports are saying shooters entered a room where holiday party was taking place.  Starting to sound more targeted as opposed to some "random shoot 'em up".


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## Brill (Dec 2, 2015)

Rapid said:


> A big if... but IF this turns out to be an ISIS-inspired or ISIS-planned operation, how would Obama respond to this? If at all.



Blame Bush and go play golf.


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## SpitfireV (Dec 2, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> Reports are saying shooters entered a room where holiday party was taking place.  Starting to sound more targeted as opposed to some "random shoot 'em up".



F6 info says that the conference room was the target and there was some kind of County gathering going on. Christmas party? Who knows right now.


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## Red-Dot (Dec 2, 2015)

lindy said:


> Blame Bush and go play golf.


Blame it on global warming....the sun....errr Bush made them do it.


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## DA SWO (Dec 2, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Listening to San Berno press conf right now...
> 
> From Police Chief:
> 
> ...



No one can say white guys? black guy? etc?
Kind of hard to believe.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 2, 2015)

@DA SWO - Maybe they really don't know?  From listening to the press conference, there were no suspects on scene to engage with.  Sounds as if the baddies were masked as well.

Will be interested to hear what comes out on the security cameras...just now (listening to radio feed) cops were posting help from "probation" at areas to ensure no one left businesses closed before cameras could be recovered.


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## x SF med (Dec 2, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Hate b/c that's exactly what will happen and it makes me mad as hell. But you're right.



Um, then why give me more hate?  Shouldn't you be glad that the truth was stated so clearly?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 2, 2015)

x SF med said:


> Um, then why give me more hate?  Shouldn't you be glad that the truth was stated so clearly?



You're right I fixed it.


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## x SF med (Dec 2, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> You're right I fixed it.



Trust me J...  it made me angry that what I wrote was truthful and at this time apparent to the thinking man or woman or whatever neutral gender is espoused this week.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 2, 2015)

Interesting...anyone listening to the feed?


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 2, 2015)

<<From RADIO>>

SHOT'S FIRED out back window of vehicle cops are chasing.


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## Rapid (Dec 2, 2015)

15:10 Still firing shots from SUV
15:08 Shots fired out of back window during pursuit.

15:07 One subject bailed and is now in custody. Edit: Suspect that was on the run is in custody. "Probably uninvolved" - Cop to dispatch
Live stream: KABC News Live Streaming Video


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## Brill (Dec 2, 2015)

yeah, calling for medics.


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## SpitfireV (Dec 2, 2015)

They're asking for medics and a Bearcat now.


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## Brill (Dec 2, 2015)

VI team ready to go!


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 2, 2015)

Shit...hearing cops firing back.


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## Rapid (Dec 2, 2015)

SUV got shot up pretty good.







Higher res: http://puu.sh/lHc76/a1b3e07d08.jpg


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## Brill (Dec 2, 2015)

CNN video matches the audio this freq: San Bernardino Police System 10  Live Audio Feed


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## Brill (Dec 2, 2015)

one PUC!


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## Brill (Dec 2, 2015)

Whoa...police need an Arabic terp?????

Anyone else hear that?


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 2, 2015)

lindy said:


> Whoa...police need an Arabic terp?????
> 
> Anyone else hear that?



I heard it, was not clear about needing a terp though.  Sounded like the person they were trying to talk to is female.


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## Rapid (Dec 2, 2015)

Reports of shots fired elsewhere as well. Not sure if related or not though.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 2, 2015)

@Rapid - they keep referencing Amazon.  Assuming this?

Amazon Fulfillment Center
4.119 Google reviews
Warehouse
Address: 1910 E Central Ave, San Bernardino, CA 92401


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## Brill (Dec 2, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @Rapid - they keep referencing Amazon.  Assuming this?
> 
> Amazon Fulfillment Center
> 4.119 Google reviews
> ...



No it was passed as
*1880 Almond Ave *but is NTR*.
*


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## Rapid (Dec 2, 2015)

Quote: "hey man, I am in the amazon building at 1910 E central and our employees in the parking lot heard the gunshots and ran inside. We are just on the other side of the wash of the SUV and it aligned with the times of that, but no shots at amazon itself"

Seems like the shots fired (heard at Amazon) were from the SUV scene, and it just happens that the Amazon warehouse was nearby.


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## Kraut783 (Dec 2, 2015)

RIP to the victims.......find the other bastard guys


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## Marine0311 (Dec 2, 2015)

Find
Fix
Kill the bad guys.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 2, 2015)

Scanner reporting IED..

Telling officers to move back 50 yards...


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## TLDR20 (Dec 2, 2015)

Posts moved here


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 2, 2015)

Thank you @TLDR20


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## Frank S. (Dec 2, 2015)

Good work by LEOs.


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## DA SWO (Dec 2, 2015)

Heartache at CNN if the shooters are anything other than white males.
RIP to the innocent victims.
Heard the FBI Director on the local station, used everything to describe it as terrorism, without using the T-word, so I'll assume the shooters/deceased are not white rednecks from Alabama.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 2, 2015)




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## Frank S. (Dec 2, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Heartache at CNN if the shooters are anything other than white males.
> RIP to the innocent victims.
> Heard the FBI Director on the local station, used everything to describe it as terrorism, without using the T-word, so I'll assume the shooters/deceased are not white rednecks from Alabama.



Said Farouk ain't no redneck...


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## DA SWO (Dec 2, 2015)

Frank S. said:


> Said Farouk ain't no redneck...


Hadn't heard a name was out.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 2, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Hadn't heard a name was out.



That name has been treading water all day, have yet to hear anyone 'official' utter it.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 2, 2015)

LA Times

Syed Farook


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## Kraut783 (Dec 2, 2015)

Well.....there ya go......crap.


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## racing_kitty (Dec 2, 2015)

Goddamn right-wing nut Rethuglican tea baggin' Christian zealots. How dare they. 

I give this four problematics.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 2, 2015)

Supposedly LA times is reporting that one of the suspects was a Qatar citizen.

Looks like a Islamic terror attack.


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## Muppet (Dec 2, 2015)

Fuck. Rest easy to the fallen.....And of course, Potus names guns instead of offering condolences, he forces his agenda. He needs to shut up and take this all in first and then figure shit out...

M.


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## ZmanTX (Dec 3, 2015)

RIP to the victims and condolences to their families. Glad Law Enforcement responded as quickly as they did.

ZM


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## SpitfireV (Dec 3, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Supposedly LA times is reporting that one of the suspects was a Qatar citizen.
> 
> Looks like a Islamic terror attack.



On the face of it maybe but let's wait and see. It sounds like he was at the Christmas party and then left suddenly for no apparent reason. The use of the pipebombs indicates pre-planning but to what motive? Not sure yet. Time will tell.


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## Rapid (Dec 3, 2015)

San Bernardino shooting: At least 14 dead - BBC News



> FBI officials said they do not yet know if it was a terrorist attack but local police said it might have been domestic terrorism.
> 
> "I think what they are getting at there, following the Paris attacks, is that they do not have any direct suggestion at this stage that this is an Islamist-style terrorist attack," said the BBC's James Cook who is at the scene. "Rather, if it is a terrorist attack it is perhaps some kind if home-grown terrorist attack here in the US."



:-/ 

They could've been flying the IS flag from the SUV and they'd still be looking for excuses.

Possible theory I read:

_"My money is on these guys being ISIS wannabes. I bet they got kitted out to plan an attack, but aren't actually connected to ISIS. Then Syed gets triggered by something at the Christmas party and blows the plan by moving ahead of schedule. This would explain the lack of suicide vests, and why they only hit one place, while also explaining why they had so much gear and seemed to know what they were doing."_


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 3, 2015)

Either way you cut it, its a terror attack.

Ninja assault suits. Check
Body Armor. Check
Load bearing assault vest. Check
Go bag with extra bang-bang-boom. Check
Primary and secondary weapons. Check
Pipe bombs. Check
GoPro camera to film the carnage. Check

They had enough crap on them, after the initial shooting to sustain more attacks, and by the looks, that's probably what they planned to do. The fact that they got in, did their killing and got out before LE responded tells me they had planned this a lot. Was it religious motivated? Probably, but you are right, we don't know for sure yet. However, its a terror attack, if looks like a duck, walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, its a good indication that its a duck. 

The real indication for me is CAIR (a recognized terrorist supporting group) coming out ahead of the "Muslims did it bomb" (big shocker) and condemned it, and claimed it stands with the American people, with a smirk on their faces. This puts me firmly in the camp of "this was a straight up Islamic based attack, by radical's".

My .02


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## SpitfireV (Dec 3, 2015)

The gear doesn't necessarily make it a terrorist attack- it can be an indicator but the real kicker is motive.

Else you could say the Hollywood Bank robbers were terrorists.

Facts are what is important here


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 3, 2015)

I understand what you're saying, but yet again, it doesn't take a DNA test to figure out if this is a duck.


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## racing_kitty (Dec 3, 2015)

SpitfireV said:


> The gear doesn't necessarily make it a terrorist attack- it can be an indicator but the real kicker is motive.
> 
> Else you could say the Hollywood Bank robbers were terrorists.
> 
> Facts are what is important here



The argument has been made on this very board that all mass shootings are terrorism, to fuck all with the motivation behind it. Do you disagree with that because it was a Muslim shooter? Or do you disagree for another reason? Or do you agree?  Just because no religious motive has been assigned yet doesn't mean it's not terror. 

Tim McVeigh was agnostic.


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## DA SWO (Dec 3, 2015)

SpitfireV said:


> The gear doesn't necessarily make it a terrorist attack- it can be an indicator but the real kicker is motive.
> 
> Else you could say the Hollywood Bank robbers were terrorists.
> 
> Facts are what is important here


Can't say the PP attack was terror and this isn't.


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## Brill (Dec 3, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Can't say the PP attack was terror and this isn't.



Did the Joint Terrorism Task force help with that investigation?


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## RetPara (Dec 3, 2015)

Rapid said:


> _"My money is on these guys being ISIS wannabes. I bet they got kitted out to plan an attack, but aren't actually connected to ISIS. Then Syed gets triggered by something at the Christmas party and blows the plan by moving ahead of schedule. This would explain the lack of suicide vests, and why they only hit one place, while also explaining why they had so much gear and seemed to know what they were doing."_



That follows with the franchising of AQ.  There is enough literature and information on the web that radicalization is possible.  Also what mosque the attitudes of the local Iman's play writ large.

This morning it is being reported that the male was attending a work holiday party and got into an argument with someone and then left.  Later he returned fully kitted up with his wife.  The room the party was in was specifically targeted.  The couple had left their six month old infant with a family member earlier in the morning.  Somewhat different than the usual work place violence where some one gets pissed, goes to their car and comes back with a pistol.  

This was planned before I believe.  Thankfully they screwed up their by leaving their local hide site before the intense search ring had expanded enough.  It will be interesting to see where that was and if it was an error or if something 'flushed' them out.


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## Rapid (Dec 3, 2015)

Dating profile for one of them:

22 yr. old Male Government Employee from California USA looking for M…

"*religios but modern *family of 4, 2girls 2boys I work for county as health,safety and envorimental inspector. Enjoy working on vintage and modern cars, read religios books, enjoy eating out sometimes travel and just hang out in back yard doing target pratice with younger sister and friends."


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## Red-Dot (Dec 3, 2015)

I wonder if any of the victims or people in the immediate area were armed. I seriously doubt it. And if someone would have been carrying, this thing may have had a totally different outcome.


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## SpitfireV (Dec 3, 2015)

racing_kitty said:


> The argument has been made on this very board that all mass shootings are terrorism, to fuck all with the motivation behind it. Do you disagree with that because it was a Muslim shooter? Or do you disagree for another reason? Or do you agree?  Just because no religious motive has been assigned yet doesn't mean it's not terror.
> 
> Tim McVeigh was agnostic.



Yes but McVeigh had a political motive, hence terrorism. I just don't like to see the word bandied about for every conceivable crime like it often seems to be. It should be used for legitimate cases in order to preserve the integrity of the impact of the term.

Not all mass shootings are terrorism. What about the guy who just shoots up his workplace because he's pissed off? There's no political motive there, it's just anger.

I do believe that the terrorism term is bandied about far too often, usually by politicos who are out to score points.

If you read my post you'll see that I've also said that, prima facie, this *appears* to be Islamic terrorism but I was just calling for a bit more info.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 3, 2015)

_Authorities on Thursday were trying to learn why a couple left behind their infant daughter and carried out a shooting rampage that left 14 people dead and seriously wounded more than a dozen others in one of the nation's worst mass shootings._

Hmmm...let me think about that a bit... :whatever:

http://www.startribune.com/14-dead-17-wounded-in-california-shooting-2-suspects-dead/360331841/#1


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## Gunz (Dec 3, 2015)

Just snapped off the TV with disgust after surfing news channels and hearing nothing but ban-the-guns anti-NRA-rhetoric coming from all except Fox News which actually used the word "Muslim" to describe the shooters.


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## The Hate Ape (Dec 3, 2015)

I feel like we could explore the motivations of the USG for pushing the terrorism label aside: *is it possible that IOT prevent/dissuade copy-cat maneuvers the USG is downplaying the incident?
*
It would be a smart move, despite what is obvious to us - the same cannot be said for the majority. People _really _would be convinced that this is a simple workplace dispute. Further attacks by legit lahkbars would also be second-guessed because of how this one got covered. No matter how stupidly and painfully obvious this is to many - pulling the how to deal with a 2y/o tantrum is a workable IO tactic. 

Regardless, those people were into some bad shit.


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## Totentanz (Dec 3, 2015)

SpitfireV said:


> The gear doesn't necessarily make it a terrorist attack- it can be an indicator but the real kicker is motive.
> 
> Else you could say the Hollywood Bank robbers were terrorists.
> 
> Facts are what is important here



On it's own, you're right.  But it indicates at the very least the idea that this had some significant planning put into it.  It's circumstantial  and the methodology and goals will indicate whether or not it was a terrorist attack (of which the preparation will be a component).

BTW, fuck CAIR.  They're Pakistan with 501(c)(3) status...

RIP to the deceased and a speedy recovery to the injured.


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## RetPara (Dec 3, 2015)

Back in the 1920's the US government made a conscious decision to legally describe terrorist acts on US soil, not as terrorism, but murder and so forth.  The Patriot Act changed that to some degree.  Still, when the label of terrorism is used there are legal and policy ramifications mandated in the government.  The waffling is to avoid the ramifications.


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## AWP (Dec 3, 2015)

Cynically, I want to start a "dead pool" for the duration of this story. How long will it take before we find another lead for that Calgon moment? "Take me away."


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## x SF med (Dec 3, 2015)

RIP to the murdered, and wishes for full recovery to the injured.

I'm not convinced enough facts are in to decide this case yet, but I would lean toward a radicalized group planning and executing the attack - it was too clean, and too quick.  Syed Farouk was an employee of the targeted area, possibly the inside man (until we know if the other male shooter was also employed there) for the operation.  All indicators point to a planned and practiced attack on this state government agency.

It sickens me that our government focuses on legal gun ownership in these cases, before any thought of the victims, the peace officers, or gaining facts about the incident itself.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 3, 2015)

Red-Dot said:


> I wonder if any of the victims or people in the immediate area were armed. I seriously doubt it. And if someone would have been carrying, this thing may have had a totally different outcome.



I think about this often. Remember those Texas douche-bags who went into the Chipotle's? Today I'd think...FUCK!?! They sure as hell look like a threat, but I guess I'm supposed to wait until they open fire before I shoot back.  My SIG is not much of a match unless I get the jump on them...


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## AWP (Dec 3, 2015)

Those two just look like clownshoes and are one reason why I'm against open carry. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.


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## Devildoc (Dec 3, 2015)

RetPara said:


> That follows with the franchising of AQ.  There is enough literature and information on the web that radicalization is possible.  Also what mosque the attitudes of the local Iman's play writ large.
> 
> This morning it is being reported that the male was attending a work holiday party and got into an argument with someone and then left.  Later he returned fully kitted up with his wife.  The room the party was in was specifically targeted.  The couple had left their six month old infant with a family member earlier in the morning.  Somewhat different than the usual work place violence where some one gets pissed, goes to their car and comes back with a pistol.
> 
> This was planned before I believe.  Thankfully they screwed up their by leaving their local hide site before the intense search ring had expanded enough.  It will be interesting to see where that was and if it was an error or if something 'flushed' them out.


 
Definitely.  There was a plan.  As if the rest of the physical evidence was not enough, a house full of IEDs/materials should underscore that if something wasn't supposed to happen at that place and time, something was being planned to happen somewhere, some time.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 3, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Those two just look like clownshoes and are one reason why I'm against open carry. Just because you can doesn't mean you should.



  Completely agree. And to me, they look like stereotypical high school kids who get picked on and play too much air soft. I see them walk into a business looking like that,  every alarm bell I have goes into overload.

  Which brings me back to my original point, when are you allowed to "Protect yourself?"   Just watching the chatter on The other board I follow, my prediction is that someplace in the future someone legally carrying is going to proactively shoot someone they thought were a threat.  They're going to turn out not to be a threat, and then shit will really get ugly.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 3, 2015)

Edit: Bad info.


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## RetPara (Dec 3, 2015)

Devildoc said:


> a house full of IEDs/materials should underscore that



Would not push that point too far...  My barracks room in the 82nd always had a shit load cleaning supplies the 1SG couldn't figure out what I was using them for.....


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## AWP (Dec 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Which brings me back to my original point, when are you allowed to "Protect yourself?"   Just watching the chatter on The other board I follow, my prediction is that someplace in the future someone legally carrying is going to proactively shoot someone they thought were a threat.  They're going to turn out not to be a threat, and then shit will really get ugly.



Or when you call them out and even though they respond with "We can legally carry" who actually shrugs and walks away? Who doesn't keep one eye on those guys, guys you don't know or trust? How does that situation not escalate?

We're probably better off taking this to the gun thread though.


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## DA SWO (Dec 3, 2015)

Devildoc said:


> Definitely.  There was a plan.  As if the rest of the physical evidence was not enough, a house full of IEDs/materials should underscore that if something wasn't supposed to happen at that place and time, something was being planned to happen somewhere, some time.



Funny (not) how the IEDs are not being played up, guess extra gun laws wouldn't stop an IED maker.

Just wait until we get Iraq style IEDs going off, then the sheep may start to stir.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 3, 2015)

CNN.com running with headline-
"A link to terrorism"

Officials: San Bernardino shooter appears radicalized - CNN.com


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## Rapid (Dec 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> CNN.com running with headline-
> "A link to terrorism"
> 
> Officials: San Bernardino shooter appears radicalized - CNN.com





> Syed Rizwan Farook -- one-half of the couple behind the San Bernardino shooting massacre  -- was apparently radicalized and in touch with people being investigated by the FBI for international terrorism, law enforcement officials said Thursday.
> 
> *Still, it wasn't necessarily the only driver behind the carnage, as workplace grievances may have also played a role. President Barack Obama hinted as much Thursday when he said that the attackers may have had "mixed motives."*



Wow. Holy shit. Fucking kill yourselves, you worthless cunts. Even when it's right there in front of them, they still try to spin it.

No, being triggered and carrying out the attack early is not an 'alternative motive'. It's called a fuck up. Quite frankly, we're lucky they DID snap and didn't plan this out even better.

Explosives at California shooters' home - BBC News

Bomb equipment, weapons and thousands of rounds of ammunition were found at the home of the San Bernardino shooters, US police have said.


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## AWP (Dec 3, 2015)

An interesting article about violence in that city. 
San Bernardino Residents: The City Had Pretty Awful Gun Violence Before Today | VICE News

To sum it up:



> In the 1980s and 90s, the city was known as a "murder capital," a police spokesman said last year. Crime dropped after that, but in 2012, the city was forced to declare bankruptcy; that year, the murder rate rose 50 percent as city services were cut back.
> 
> Andreas Montalvo, who works at a Shell gas station near the facility, told VICE News he hears at least one gun shot a day as a result of gang activity.



Until police started showing up this was just another day in San Bernandino. Take a violent area and add other variables to the mix, it shouldn't surprise anyone this happened. With the quoted link to terrorism was this guy given a green light (did he start a fight to give the act some "cover") or was he triggered and carried out his plans before they were finalized? He clearly planned and prepared, but was it supposed to happen yesterday?


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## Devildoc (Dec 3, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Wow. Holy shit. Fucking kill yourselves, you worthless cunts. Even when it's right there in front of them, they still try to spin it.
> 
> No, being triggered and carrying out the attack early is not an 'alternative motive'. It's called a fuck up. Quite frankly, we're lucky they DID snap and didn't plan this out even better.
> 
> ...


 
My views on "workplace violence" based on what the eyewitnesses saw.  When these things happen witnesses tend to overthink what they saw and heard. They see things as they think they see them.  They get led by the po-po in questioning (i.e, "did he seem angry to you?").  That's why eyewitnesses stink on the stand. Fallible memory and all. I would have to think that if my colleagues were getting gunned down, with that noise, chaos, blood, screaming, their interpretations of events would be sketchy at best. Anywho, that's my take on people say the POS was "getting angry."

My opinion is we have not scratched the surface of this thing, but POTUS will be hard-pressed to man-up and call it what it is.


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## Gunz (Dec 3, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Wow. Holy shit. Fucking kill yourselves, you worthless cunts. Even when it's right there in front of them, they still try to spin it.


 
The fear of offending Muslims only makes it easier for jihadist fucks like this to carry out their plans.


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## SpitfireV (Dec 3, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Wow. Holy shit. Fucking kill yourselves, you worthless cunts. Even when it's right there in front of them, they still try to spin it.
> 
> No, being triggered and carrying out the attack early is not an 'alternative motive'. It's called a fuck up. Quite frankly, we're lucky they DID snap and didn't plan this out even better.
> 
> ...



That's fucked. I'd call it possibly a contributing motive but not the primary (or even a secondary one).


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## SpitfireV (Dec 3, 2015)

Totentanz said:


> On it's own, you're right.  But it indicates at the very least the idea that this had some significant planning put into it.  It's circumstantial  and the methodology and goals will indicate whether or not it was a terrorist attack (of which the preparation will be a component).


Ya exactly, which is why I said it was an indicator.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 3, 2015)

And this thread has evolved into:






Read an Allen West article that the FBI is putting out that the couple had been in contact with known international terrorist on their watch list.

No matter how you want to spin it, word it, the bottom line is that this was a Islamic based terror attack...period.


----------



## SpitfireV (Dec 3, 2015)

Not sure if that was directed at me. I haven't tried to spin it into anything it isn't- I just called for some restraint before the major facts were known.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 3, 2015)

Absolutely, but not in a mean way, more of a funny way. Hope that's how it came across as that was my intention.


----------



## Brill (Dec 3, 2015)

x SF med said:


> It sickens me that our government focuses on legal gun ownership in these cases, before any thought of the victims, the peace officers, or gaining facts about the incident itself.



Interesting that ALL of the Democrat candidates to include Big O blamed guns, NRA, etc whereas ALL Republican candidates expressed sympathy and prayers for both the victims and first responders.


----------



## AWP (Dec 3, 2015)

I like the way the narrative played out:

Hrrrrr, we need more gun laws!
This violence has to end!
We'll give you more hashtags to end violence!

Uh, guys? This wasn't JUST workplace violence, it was clearly planned.
We...we....need more gun control!
Yeah, they made contact with terrorists.
Uh....why do we give guns to terrorists?!
They were legally purchased.
(crickets) GUN CONTROL!

This would be sad if it wasn't for the dead and the utterly flawed and broken, emotional "logic" playing out in the aftermath.


----------



## Blizzard (Dec 3, 2015)

On a somewhat different note, does it bother anyone else that so much of the police actions were broadcast in the clear, real-time?

A number here followed the incident on scanners as it unfolded (look back a page or so) but this seems ripe for problems, especially as society becomes more tech savvy and feeds become more widely available.  Hell, most news channels had aerial video along with the scanner audio in real-time.

I know numerous PD's do encrypt transmissions and it's not without it's own set of issues but it's a department by department thing.  However, broadcasting that 'so-and-so is headed over to #### street' or 'we need a Bearcat to come in from the East from XXXX' or 'so in so is are sitting ducks until help arrives', as they did in San Bernadino just doesn't make a lot of sense, especially for officer safety.

To me, this runs in-line with our politicians that out teams and missions just hours after they've completed.  The release of info in these instances should really be buttoned up.


----------



## AWP (Dec 3, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> On a somewhat different note, does it bother anyone else that so much of the police actions were broadcast in the clear, real-time?
> 
> A number here followed the incident on scanners as it unfolded (look back a page or so) but this seems ripe for problems, especially as society becomes more tech savvy and feeds become more widely available.  Hell, most news channels had aerial video along with the scanner audio in real-time.
> 
> ...



As a radio guy I am 100% on board. I know @ke4gde did some work installing police comm systems, so maybe he can chime in (also as an end user), but my take is simple:
Instead of getting old MRAP's or helos or whatever, why didn't departments spend Federal money on encryption? Even low level stuff, or frequency hopping, could prevent/ minimize what's described above.

I'd honestly rather know every PD's comms were encrypted than see LEO's carrying enough gear to assault Fallujah.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 3, 2015)

@Blizzard - I was thinking the same thing as I was listening to it (and posting what I thought were relevant updates) - there were times that they would move to a secure channel or ask 'so-and-so' to call them on cell phone to communicate more sensitive info - One example being after they had the gun fight with the black SUV; soon after they wanted SWAT to head to a specific address - I'm guessing it was the address of killers - but that was broadcast via a different avenue; not publicly.  Yes though...there did seem to be too much detail out there...


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 3, 2015)

Wonder if the good sheriff will catch hell for this.  I put it here as it his reaction is directly related to what happened in CA - and I didn't think it fit into the gun control thread.

Ulster County Sheriff: All Licensed Handgun Owners Should Carry Them


----------



## racing_kitty (Dec 3, 2015)

That's why EOD types are very skittish about camera crews in the work area. People have a vested interest in seeing how they roll, and it's not for a benevolent reason. That line of thinking is not exclusive to that career field, either. 

However, All Transparency Is Good (TM). God forbid the instant gratification generations can't see exactly what's happening before their popcorn gets cold.


----------



## Brill (Dec 3, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @Blizzard - I was thinking the same thing as I was listening to it (and posting what I thought were relevant updates) - there were times that they would move to a secure channel or ask 'so-and-so' to call them on cell phone to communicate more sensitive info - One example being after they had the gun fight with the black SUV; soon after they wanted SWAT to head to a specific address - I'm guessing it was the address of killers - but that was broadcast via a different avenue; not publicly.  Yes though...there did seem to be too much detail out there...



Terrorists...or workplace violencers....can eavesdrop too.


----------



## Blizzard (Dec 3, 2015)

@Ohh-Rah, I hear ya.  It's like Emily Ratajkowski (look her up if you don't know ) walking down the street naked; people are gonna look (I'm gonna look).  If the broadcast is available, people will listen.  It's human nature.

Specific addresses, phone numbers, movements, descriptions, etc. were broadcast.  I know a few tried to circumvent with cell phone use but is that really how it should work?  Several cell numbers were actually broadcast over the air.   What if it were a major incident (ie 9/11) and cell use was not available?  That's not a good process.

A few challenges I've heard cited in re: to encryted comms are:
1.  Cost:   obviously encryption comes at a higher cost - but these days is it really that much higher?
2.  Increased complexity/potential issues with inter-agency communications:  Does agency X have the same keys as agency Y, sometimes even communicating between agencies in the clear can get muddied, ex. LEO may not broadcast on the same freq as another agency, even in the clear.
3.  Transparency:  this is a weak argument as I'm not aware of any requirement for comms to be available this way, although I suppose some cities may have a requirement, especially days.  Certain types, particularly media, may cry foul on this one.

However, I don't see these as signifant barriers to tightening up the release of info (#2 is probably the most legit of any of them).  It really should be addressed.  There is a right time for information to be made available and it's not while things are still unfolding.


----------



## Blizzard (Dec 3, 2015)

lindy said:


> Terrorists...or workplace violencers....can eavesdrop too.


Or John Q. Vigilante, who decides to come over and "help" out?  (but actually complicates things further)


----------



## Rapid (Dec 3, 2015)

Don't worry, this is already forgotten about over here. There's nothing about it in today's top 10 'most read' stories on the BBC site.

I guess it worked -- the media spin about workplace violence and 'unknown motives' makes this just another mundane 'mass shooting' which everyone is tired of hearing about.

Fake edit: sorry, I was wrong, looks like it did manage to creep in at #10. Obviously electric shocks and breastfeeding are more important though.


----------



## AWP (Dec 3, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> 3.  Transparency:  this is a weak argument as I'm not aware of any requirement for comms to be available this way, although I suppose some cities may have a requirement, especially days.  Certain types, particularly media, may cry foul on this one.
> 
> However, I don't see these as signifant barriers to tightening up the release of info (#2 is probably the most legit of any of them).  It really should be addressed.  There is a right time for information to be made available and it's not while things are still unfolding.



A good voice recorder will run about $20k, but shockingly they are also in the Fed. supply system. I'd also like to think radio comms are already recorded. The size of the files is miniscule and storage so cheap there's no reason not to archive the data forever.



Rapid said:


> breastfeeding....more important though.



Boobs are ALWAYS important.


----------



## nobodythank you (Dec 4, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> As a radio guy I am 100% on board. I know @ke4gde did some work installing police comm systems, so maybe he can chime in (also as an end user), but my take is simple:
> Instead of getting old MRAP's or helos or whatever, why didn't departments spend Federal money on encryption? Even low level stuff, or frequency hopping, could prevent/ minimize what's described above.
> 
> I'd honestly rather know every PD's comms were encrypted than see LEO's carrying enough gear to assault Fallujah.


Sorry, late to the party. It depends on the agency/administration as mentioned. That being said, some agencies consider their trunked systems to be encrypted because the talk channel can be one of several freqs, and someone with a scanner will only pick up bits of the conversation. In essence, you could be transmitting on ch1 for one key up and channel 12 for the next (each channel has its own freq). Other systems only allow access (xmit or rcv) by radio serial number, and some highspeed agencies even use a dual encryption method to keep people form listening. Hidden talk channels or freqs are sometimes used as well for SWAT, VICE, IA, ect...

Though all of that goes out the window, in a manner of speaking, during a disaster as interop systems can patch one system to the next (HF to FM to PX to SATCOM to whatever. Also, due to mutual aid agreements, some agencies give out loaners to other agencies (sometimes non LE) as a way to communicate during a disaster. So really it depends on who is in charge, who has money, and what policy is.


----------



## RetPara (Dec 4, 2015)

Talking with HH6 about this last night.   She said 'That has to be the worst case of postpartum depression I ever heard of....."


----------



## JBS (Dec 4, 2015)

Lots of talk about "guns killing people", but little to no discussion about the fact that this was (yet another) soft target / gun free zone.

These guys reconnoiter their targets and the worst instances of violence are almost always gun free soft targets- whether domesetic terrorists or foreigners.


Movie theaters
schools
universities
government buildings (as was the San Bernardino shooting)


----------



## Grunt (Dec 4, 2015)

Talking about the fact that they are "gun free" is counter-productive to their cause. Focus has to be put on the "evilness" of the act -- that evil thing...the weapon.

Nevermind the tool behind the weapon...focus must be put on the weapon.


----------



## JBS (Dec 4, 2015)

I think Tim McVeigh and Osama Bin Laden already proved that a determined killer with no guns can be far worse than small cells with guns.

Banning guns might have a negligible effect on suicide and the occasional workplace incident.  Terrorists, however, will not be phased by new gun laws or demands to turn them in.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 4, 2015)

Apparently Syed swore allegiance to ISIS.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 4, 2015)

Just thinkin'

Odd that I don't see all of Facebook changing their profile pics to an American flag like they did for the french -


----------



## Grunt (Dec 4, 2015)

Unfortunately, for much of the public -- at least those in my area that I have interaction with -- except for the news focusing on it, the event has become a moot point and they have moved onto other things.

People are emotional based. The shooting "shocked and awed" them for the moment...but, once things settled down, so did their emotions.

Now, move along herd...there are other things more important to do.


----------



## Blizzard (Dec 4, 2015)

JBS said:


> Banning guns might have a negligible effect on suicide and the occasional workplace incident.  Terrorists, however, will not be phased by new gun laws or demands to turn them in.


When you have fanatics/radicals and/or mental issues and there is a will, there will always be a way.

It's only a matter of time before one of these animals takes "inspiration" from more potent methods that have long plagued the Middle East.  When that happens, banning all the guns on the planet won't help one bit.   Then what we will we ban/blame?


----------



## Rapid (Dec 4, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Just thinkin'
> 
> Odd that I don't see all of Facebook changing their profile pics to an American flag like they did for the french -



Probably because there's a concerted effort to distance this as much as possible from Islamic terrorism. But it's going to be harder and harder to do that, now that new information is coming to light.

"The female suspect in the California gun attack pledged allegiance to the leader of the Islamic State (IS) group on Facebook, US officials say.

Tashfeen Malik made the post under an account with a different name, the officials told US media."

It's almost as if American left wing media has an agenda...


----------



## AWP (Dec 4, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Just thinkin'
> 
> Odd that I don't see all of Facebook changing their profile pics to an American flag like they did for the french -



That is an EXCELLENT point. Time for me to go troll the Net.


----------



## ZmanTX (Dec 4, 2015)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Just thinkin'
> 
> Odd that I don't see all of Facebook changing their profile pics to an American flag like they did for the french -



Well according to the media it was just another "mass shooting" so why would people in France or anywhere else care?

ZM


----------



## Red-Dot (Dec 4, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> When you have fanatics/radicals and/or mental issues and there is a will, there will always be a way.
> 
> It's only a matter of time before one of these animals takes "inspiration" from more potent methods that have long plagued the Middle East.  When that happens, banning all the guns on the planet won't help one bit.   Then what we will we ban/blame?



I don't know if any on here have seen this: The Spymasters - CIA in the Crosshairs on Showtime

One of the former directors was interviewed (can't remember which one) and spoke of the Pakistani scientist that had teamed up with Bin Laden before he got whacked, discussing nuclear weapon development. During said interview, the scientist stated something to the effect "Now we come to the matter of finding fissile material". Bin Laden's response was "what makes you think we don't already have that".


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 4, 2015)

ZmanTX said:


> Well according to the media it was just another "mass shooting" so why would people in France or anywhere else care?
> 
> ZM


Americans should care.


----------



## Rapid (Dec 4, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Americans should care.



Definitely, but I think the issue is it's a lot harder for most people to care when your own media is running so much misinformation.

It's just like, "Oh, another mass shooting, great." in their minds. Not, "Holy shit. We've just been hit by Islamic terrorists again".

The less this gets connected to terrorism, the less the Obama adminstration has to do anything about it.


----------



## ZmanTX (Dec 4, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Americans should care.



Yes they should. I was being sarcastic because the media has already twisted this event into what they want.


----------



## AWP (Dec 4, 2015)

Red-Dot said:


> I don't know if any on here have seen this: The Spymasters - CIA in the Crosshairs on Showtime
> 
> One of the former directors was interviewed (can't remember which one) and spoke of the Pakistani scientist that had teamed up with Bin Laden before he got whacked, discussing nuclear weapon development. During said interview, the scientist stated something to the effect "Now we come to the matter of finding fissile material". Bin Laden's response was "what makes you think we don't already have that".



Khan, the asshole who spread the technology to anyone with money? That POS should have been killed years ago, but we did nothing.


----------



## Rapid (Dec 4, 2015)

Remember when Obama made fun of republicans for being afraid of "women with children" (i.e., refugees)?

Well, this was a woman with a 6-month-old baby who pledged allegiance to ISIS. Yeah.

Of course, there's all the usual, "We had no idea they were capable of such a thing!" coming from their neighbours and coworkers now. Well yeah, neither will you be able to tell which of the refugees -- that Obama so desperately wants to bring in -- will be radicalised in the future (if not already).


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 4, 2015)

Rapid said:


> Remember when Obama made fun of republicans for being afraid of "women with children" (i.e., refugees)?



Right up there with the 2012 elections and republican candidates being mocked and ridiculed for being concerned about Russia.  Democrat's strategy for years has been "laugh and point",  knowing that in most cases we would back down not wanting to be ridiculed and made to feel like we were paranoid and out of touch.

Donald Trump might be a tool, but he is talking about things that many of us have believed for a long time, and he is not backing down.  In fact, every time he says something outrageous he becomes even more popular. In my own circle of friends, I see those who in the past would play down the fact that they carry concealed, or are concerned about radical Islam, talking about it in public more than they ever have in the past.   

Personally I think that what happened in California is a game changer, and that more Conservatives will begin fighting back when libs try to simply pat them on the head and say "there there. "

Somehow there is a great analogy tied into  what is happening right now, and the story of the _Emperor Who Wore No Clothes._ I just cannot find the words to link them together.


----------



## Blizzard (Dec 4, 2015)

Red-Dot said:


> I don't know if any on here have seen this: The Spymasters - CIA in the Crosshairs on Showtime
> 
> One of the former directors was interviewed (can't remember which one) and spoke of the Pakistani scientist that had teamed up with Bin Laden before he got whacked, discussing nuclear weapon development. During said interview, the scientist stated something to the effect "Now we come to the matter of finding fissile material". Bin Laden's response was "what makes you think we don't already have that".


Funny you mention that show.  I was wondering if anyone here would mention it.  I caught the tailend of it the other night.  Seemed interesting.  The one comment that had me taken aback was from a female (former analyst?) at the end when she said, "I don’t view terrorism as a threat to National Security".  I'll have to watch the whole thing for better context.


----------



## Red-Dot (Dec 4, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> Funny you mention that show.  I was wondering if anyone here would mention it.  I caught the tailend of it the other night.  Seemed interesting.  The one comment that had me taken aback was from a female (former analyst?) at the end when she said, "I don’t view terrorism as a threat to National Security".  I'll have to watch the whole thing for better context.


Yep, pretty good show. I DVR'd it so I will probably go back and re-watch.  Jose Rodriguez, the director for clandestine ops tells it like it is. Good stuff.


----------



## Devildoc (Dec 4, 2015)

"I don't view terrorism as a threat to national Security."  Well, there you have it.  Close the thread, folks....Moderators, lock it up.  Nothing to see here, move along....


----------



## AWP (Dec 4, 2015)

San Bernardino shooting tied to ISIS - CNN.com



> At a Friday press conference, FBI official David Bowdich said authorities are officially investigating the massacre as "an act of terrorism."


----------



## Red-Dot (Dec 4, 2015)

No way....


----------



## Blizzard (Dec 4, 2015)

Well, the good news is that it's not a threat to National Security.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 4, 2015)

Lone Wolf Jihadists. It's the latest thing. They get posthumous street cred from ISIL for coming up with shit all on their own and carrying it out. I have a feeling this is only the beginning of a wave of personal jihads...for the Caliphate.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 4, 2015)

Kill ratio sucks for us.
They kill 4+ for everyone they lose; winning strategy folks.


----------



## SpitfireV (Dec 4, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> Lone Wolf Jihadists. It's the latest thing. They get posthumous street cred from ISIL for coming up with shit all on their own and carrying it out. I have a feeling this is only the beginning of a wave of personal jihads...for the Caliphate.



ISIS have an updated AQ manual on how to do the...I don't like Lone Wolf, it gives them too much drama, I dunno, autonomous cell action?

Anyway, I'm not googling that particular shit so here's a link to Jamestown. I'd be interested to hear their religious argument for a couple of the things.
EDIT: Argh their site sucks for linking. 

Search for
*Hot Issue: How DAESH’s Lone Wolf Guidance Increases the Group’s Threat to the United States* on jamestown.org


----------



## Brill (Dec 4, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> San Bernardino shooting tied to ISIS - CNN.com



I seem to remember you "saying" something about metadata collection in CONUS (which stopped last Sun am)?:-"


----------



## Red-Dot (Dec 4, 2015)

The assclowns who are the "shooters" lawyers are saying we "should not be over zealous" in our conclusions. Durka, Durka throat punch bitch.
I guarantee, the reason we have not seen a picture of the female, is that she is/was wearing a burqa. I'm sure POTUS and company are trying to bury that one.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Dec 4, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Kill ratio sucks for us.
> They kill 4+ for everyone they lose; winning strategy folks.



It will stay that way for quite a while. I'm not a LEO, but with the restrictions on LOE's as they are puts the advantage with the shooter. If disarming people by limiting or reducing CCW"s it will be even worse. I've said it before, I carry everywhere, for my protection, and that of my family. I also feel a responsibility to protect others as well. The problem I see, is being mistaken for one of the bad guy shooters.


----------



## SpitfireV (Dec 4, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> It will stay that way for quite a while. I'm not a LEO, but with the restrictions on LOE's as they are puts the advantage with the shooter. .



I wouldn't say that's necessarily true. It's all about context.


----------



## AWP (Dec 4, 2015)

lindy said:


> I seem to remember you "saying" something about metadata collection in CONUS (which stopped last Sun am)?:-"



So? I'm not 100% convinced it is targeting "bad" guys or that the threshold for probable cause is high. I think it is being done like a feeding whale: scoop up a ton of water and filter out the krill. I still think mass collection infringes upon our rights under the 4th Amendment.


----------



## SpitfireV (Dec 4, 2015)

Now one thing that makes me angry is the bloody circus at the offenders' apartment. Who decided it was a good idea to let journos trample through so soon afterwards? And it sounds like prints weren't taken, but I'd take that with a grain of salt.


----------



## Brill (Dec 4, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I think it is being done like a feeding whale: scoop up a ton of water and filter out the krill.



Agree!!! Whales don't drink or even taste the water but focus on the krill!!!

I'll convert you yet!


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 4, 2015)

lindy said:


> I seem to remember you "saying" something about metadata collection in CONUS (which stopped last Sun am)?:-"


My understanding was that was CONUS to CONUS phone calls; not overseas calls originating from the US.


----------



## busdriver (Dec 5, 2015)

Is anyone else mildly amused by the TV "experts" who don't seem to understand the internet?


----------



## Rapid (Dec 5, 2015)

San Bernardino attack: US 'will not be terrorised' - Obama - BBC News



> "We are strong. And we are resilient," he said in his weekly radio address, adding that it was "entirely possible" the two attackers had been radicalised.



'Entirely possible'? Obama's strongest statement yet!


----------



## Brill (Dec 5, 2015)

Muslim kids bullied in school because of the shooting? Call DOJ!

Loretta Lynch Muslim Advocates | Video | C-SPAN.org


----------



## JBS (Dec 5, 2015)

I listened to the broadcast from Obama.

He basically blamed the 2nd Amendment and middle America for wanting guns.


----------



## Red-Dot (Dec 5, 2015)

SpitfireV said:


> Now one thing that makes me angry is the bloody circus at the offenders' apartment. Who decided it was a good idea to let journos trample through so soon afterwards? And it sounds like prints weren't taken, but I'd take that with a grain of salt.



I say that was intentional. When the FBI needs to find another piece of the puzzle, oh too bad we let all of the journo clowns go through...crime scene has been contaminated.


----------



## SpitfireV (Dec 5, 2015)

Oh bollocks.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 5, 2015)

Red-Dot said:


> I say that was intentional. When the FBI needs to find another piece of the puzzle, oh too bad we let all of the journo clowns go through...crime scene has been contaminated.


Which says the trail was leading somewhere DoJ did not want it to go?
CAIR?


----------



## Dame (Dec 5, 2015)

Red-Dot said:


> The assclowns who are the "shooters" lawyers are saying we "should not be over zealous" in our conclusions. Durka, Durka throat punch bitch.
> I guarantee, the reason we have not seen a picture of the female, is that she is/was wearing a burqa. I'm sure POTUS and company are trying to bury that one.


----------



## AWP (Dec 5, 2015)

LOOOOOOOVE the anti-gun editorial next to the coverage. Pay minimal attention to the underlying cause, America, ZOMG guns are bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


----------



## Gunz (Dec 5, 2015)

Red-Dot said:


> The assclowns who are the "shooters" lawyers are saying we "should not be over zealous" in our conclusions. Durka, Durka throat punch bitch.
> I guarantee, the reason we have not seen a picture of the female, is that she is/was wearing a burqa. I'm sure POTUS and company are trying to bury that one.


 
And the winner is...yep, she's got the burqa. Came to America on a "fiance visa." Whatever it takes to serve the Caliphate.  Hubby was driving the rented SUV while this "typical American housewife" (family lawyers:wall::wall:) was burning through mags tailgunning at cops from the back.  What a great mom.



Freefalling said:


> LOOOOOOOVE the anti-gun editorial next to the coverage. Pay minimal attention to the underlying cause, America, ZOMG guns are bad!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!


 
Yeah, the gun hoopla is really intensifying beyond liberal post-shooting SOP because of their need to spin this away from the real issue: Jihadist Muslim killers. And of course there's very little mention about the greater carnage potential of explosives, home-made or otherwise. Terrorists don't need guns.


----------



## AWP (Dec 5, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> Hubby was driving the rented SUV while this "typical American housewife" (family lawyers:wall::wall:) was burning through mags tailgunning at cops from the back.  What a great mom.



Well, duh! When you don't allow the women to drive but need a partner in jihad...


----------



## JBS (Dec 5, 2015)

@SpitfireV 
I wouldn't dismiss such a notion under this administration.

They are very selective in what they prosecute, and Obama himself is zealously obsessed with managing the perception of the Islamic faith among mainstream Americans.   It's as if he fears open persecution in the streets if the Federal government doesn't deflect blame away from Muslims and onto other things.   A perfect example of that is his latest speech.  He again draws attention to the readily available supply of guns in America as the reason this tragedy occurred, while simultaneously being careful to never once utter the word "Muslim".



SpitfireV said:


> Oh bollocks.


----------



## AWP (Dec 5, 2015)

The NY Daily News stays classy with its look at one of the victims.

Calif. mass shooting victim was loyal NRA supporter



> California mass shooting victim Nicholas Thalasinos was a devoted husband, an outspoken critic of radicalized Muslims — and fervent supporter of the NRA.



It just goes downhill from there.


----------



## Rapid (Dec 5, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> The NY Daily News



Say no more.


----------



## Centermass (Dec 5, 2015)

I sure hope no more evidence is needed regarding the home or the vehicle associated with the terrorist incident in San Bernadino. The FBI already released both the crime scenes and journalist's immediately swarmed and invaded the interiors of both. If any additional evidence is found, it's now absolutely useless. 

And in other news of the stupid, people and residents in and around the home of Sayeed Farook and Tashfeen Malik, stated quite clearly that even though suspicious activities were observed often and frequently, no one spoke up and said anything, for fear of being labeled "Insensitive" not "Politically Correct" or "racist."

Now, news outlets and agencies are taking to the airwaves and bombarding us with the message of "See Something, Say Something" and castigating those in San Bernadino who didn't. Okay.

For the final nail in the light of all this ignorance, thank God Loretta Lynch has stepped in and announced today that the Attorney General's will conduct a full investigation into the arrest of 14-year-old Ahmed Mohamed, which occurred when Mohamed brought a homemade clock to his school in Irving, Texas, Lynch said, and whether Mohamed's civil rights were violated.

There you have it. Wow. God Bless you Ms Lynch. Someone saw something and said something. On top of that THE KID WAS NEVER ARRESTED - HE WAS DETAINED. NOR WAS HE EVER CHARGED. See something, say something and this is the end result? The backbone of this country's administration has turned to goo and gone to hell in a handbasket.

And people wonder why those citizens in California didn't say anything?

Not to worry America. Stricter gun laws would have prevented all this.


----------



## Centermass (Dec 5, 2015)

*Nice to see someone else with some cajones speak up and out over this crap. 
*

Joe Walsh, a former congressman from Illinois has taken up the challenge put forth by Loretta Lynch.  Lynch, who is responsible for the safety of Americans has not made any such move and so because she lacks the ability to do her job, she has chosen to champion the cause of Muslims.  As of now, Muslims can kill as many Americans as they like, but gawd forbid you should say something to a Muslim that offends them.  Lynch has threatened federal action against those who would do such a thing, the First Amendment, not withstanding.

Walsh released a statement to Hyperline News that challenges Lynch to do her worst:

_*What the hell does that mean? I have a 1st Amendment right, Ms Lynch, to say whatever I want about Muslims.*_

_*You want to try and prosecute me for what I say? I dare you. Here goes:*_

_*Most Muslims around the world are terrorists, support terrorism, and/or support Sharia Law. They are our enemy. I don’t want them in America. Any Muslim that won’t assimilate should get the hell out of America. Any Muslim that is a terrorist or supports terrorism should be killed. If “Moderate” Muslims don’t speak out against terrorism, they are our enemy and we should call them out and kick them out of this country. I hope there is a backlash against Muslims because Islam, as practiced by most Muslims, is not a religion of peace, and all of us who do live in peace should do whatever we can to defeat Islam.*_

_*There Ms Lynch. As an American, I have a right to say everything I just did. And I will continue to speak the truth about Islam in the hopes that others will wake up to this truth and do what we can to defeat this evil in our midst.*_

_*If that “anti-Muslim rhetoric” that “edges toward violence.” Go ahead and prosecute me. I dare you.*_


----------



## JBS (Dec 5, 2015)

I remember seeing that kid's clock and thinking that if it were my son- roughly similar in age to the clock boy, I'd probably have prevented him from brining it to school *because it looked exactly like a cartoonish version of a time bomb.*


----------



## AWP (Dec 5, 2015)

I think the good AG needs to understand a hard, cold truth:

"Hate speech" is Constitutionally protected.

I thought this was pretty good:
The Attorney General on speech that ‘edges towards violence’ and ‘acts of anti-Muslim hatred, including rhetoric’



> Even constitutionally protected speech might lead prosecutors to investigate whether the speaker is planning constitutionally unprotected criminal action or has already committed a crime. “ISIS is doing great work, and I really feel moved to join in that work” is constitutionally protected speech, but prosecutors might reasonably look into just what the speaker has been doing. (For some such investigation, such as wiretaps, they might need probable cause and a warrant; for other investigation, such as following the person or asking around about him, all they’d need is their own hunch.) The same is true of people who say, “All Muslims are terrorists, and I really feel moved to fight back against them.”


----------



## Brill (Dec 5, 2015)

It would be nice if the AG would put as much (or even half as much) effort/focus on protecting those who are the focus of the black lives matter. Inciting violence against police and whitey is ok but slander a Muslim and go to jail?

Speaking of gestapo tactics, check out this insanity:

Can Americans be denied Second Amendment rights because the Attorney General <i>suspects</i> they’re terrorists? - The Washington Post


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 5, 2015)

Screw Islam and its dirt worshipping heathen followers.   


I guess I'll just wait for my interview with the local FBI agent.


----------



## Brill (Dec 5, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> I guess I'll just wait for my interview with the local FBI agent.



Nope...drone strike.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 5, 2015)

lindy said:


> It would be nice if the AG would put as much (or even half as much) effort/focus on protecting those who are the focus of the black lives matter. Inciting violence against police and whitey is ok but slander a Muslim and go to jail?
> 
> Speaking of gestapo tactics, check out this insanity:
> 
> Can Americans be denied Second Amendment rights because the Attorney General <i>suspects</i> they’re terrorists? - The Washington Post


Be nice of the Republicans had a spine and introduced an impeachment resolution for Ms Lynch, guess her victims can say they were lynched.


----------



## AWP (Dec 5, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> say they were lynched.



You just won the Internet. Nicely done.


----------



## Brill (Dec 6, 2015)

I'm surprised that the Nothing But Clinton network would be so blunt about devout Muslim can be directly linked to domestic lone wolf workplace terrorism.

Massacre Mom Tashfeen Malik Became Fervently Devout: Report

Regardless of what this Admin says about us not at war with Islam, Islam is DEFINITELY at war with U.S.


----------



## Brill (Dec 6, 2015)

Yep, the shooter was clearly radicalized by his wife.

San Bernardino shooter’s dad: He was ‘obsessed’ with Israel

The father should be held liable by the victims' survivors.


----------



## Rapid (Dec 6, 2015)

> President Barack Obama is to deliver a rare Oval Office address later on Sunday on the San Bernardino shootings. The US leader will discuss the broader threat of terrorism, how it has evolved and how it will be defeated, the White House said.



San Bernardino attack: Obama to give rare Oval Office address - BBC News

Oh man, I'm glad I bought some popcorn earlier.


----------



## Brill (Dec 6, 2015)

Rapid said:


> > The US leader will discuss the broader threat of terrorism, how it has evolved and how it will be defeated, the White House said.



He and Biden will step down and let Ryan take over as CINC?


----------



## policemedic (Dec 6, 2015)

On a somewhat related note, today is the 26th anniversary of the rapid mass murder at the École Polytechnique de Montréal.  Marc Lépine killed 14 women that day.  I'd emigrated by then.

Montreal marks 26th anniversary of Ecole Polytechnique massacre - NEWS 1130


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Dec 6, 2015)

Rapid said:


> San Bernardino attack: Obama to give rare Oval Office address - BBC News
> 
> Oh man, I'm glad I bought some popcorn earlier.



Serious question. How much of what obama says is taken for truth, outside the USA? Is he seen as a leader with any credability?


----------



## Rapid (Dec 6, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Serious question. How much of what obama says is taken for truth, outside the USA? Is he seen as a leader with any credability?



In Europe, typical self-loathing leftist traitors (the kind who want unrestricted mass immigration) see him as a brilliant man. Though they're probably less in love with him than they were a few years ago.

But then there's a (sizable) minority of sane individuals who view him as weak and pathetic.


----------



## Brill (Dec 6, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Serious question. How much of what obama says is taken for truth, outside the USA? Is he seen as a leader with any credability?



He's loved in PAK-EE-Stahn


----------



## J.S. (Dec 6, 2015)

lindy said:


> Yep, the shooter was clearly radicalized by his wife.
> 
> San Bernardino shooter’s dad: He was ‘obsessed’ with Israel
> 
> The father should be held liable by the victims' survivors.



The father is a complete tool and I agree with lindy. His failure to report his son's extremist nature and blatant support for the Islamic State to any law enforcement means these poor people died due to his inactivity.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Dec 6, 2015)

Rapid said:


> In Europe, typical self-loathing leftist traitors (the kind who want unrestricted mass immigration) see him as a brilliant man. Though they're probably less in love with him than they were a few years ago.
> 
> But then there's a (sizable) minority of sane individuals who view him as weak and pathetic.



Thanks for the read! To see the term "brilliant" applied to obama, is scary. He is not at all a plus for stability in here CONUS. His antics internationally define a bafoon, and he plays student to Putin. There was an open mike moment that caught obama with the Russian Ambassador where in obama said, "Tell him I can do more for him after the election". Anyone ever wonder what he meant?


----------



## Frank S. (Dec 6, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Anyone ever wonder what he meant?



*Well it's pretty clear.*

*

*


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 6, 2015)

lindy said:


> I'm surprised that the Nothing But Clinton network would be so blunt about devout Muslim can be directly linked to domestic lone wolf workplace terrorism.
> 
> Massacre Mom Tashfeen Malik Became Fervently Devout: Report
> 
> Regardless of what this Admin says about us not at war with Islam, Islam is DEFINITELY at war with U.S.


Can I not hire anyone who says they are a devout Muslim?
Seriously, when the McVaes pop up Christians are quick to point out that these individuals are not following Christ's words; yet a Muslim Terrorist is described as devout (which also implies pius).
This also implies (despite claims contrary) that their actions are in ccordance with their scripture.



J.S. said:


> The father is a complete tool and I agree with lindy. His failure to report his son's extremist nature and blatant support for the Islamic State to any law enforcement means these poor people died due to his inactivity.



I hope survivors have a lawyer who can file an emergency order freezing their assets for future forfeiture.


----------



## JBS (Dec 6, 2015)

@DA SWO Real talk for a minute.

ISIS activity mimics the activity of The Prophet and his inner circle during and immediately after his lifetime.


----------



## policemedic (Dec 6, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Thanks for the read! To see the term "brilliant" applied to obama, is scary. He is not at all a plus for stability in here CONUS. His antics internationally define a bafoon, and he plays student to Putin. There was an open mike moment that caught obama with the Russian Ambassador where in obama said, "Tell him I can do more for him after the election". Anyone ever wonder what he meant?



I'm not sure useful idiot has ever been applied to a sitting president, but....


----------



## RackMaster (Dec 6, 2015)

policemedic said:


> On a somewhat related note, today is the 26th anniversary of the rapid mass murder at the École Polytechnique de Montréal.  Marc Lépine killed 14 women that day.  I'd emigrated by then.
> 
> Montreal marks 26th anniversary of Ecole Polytechnique massacre - NEWS 1130



Yup and Quebec is starting a new long gun registry.


----------



## policemedic (Dec 6, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> I think the good AG needs to understand a hard, cold truth:
> 
> "Hate speech" is Constitutionally protected.
> 
> ...



Correct.  "I hate all Muslims," is Constitutional speech.  "I'm going to kill all Muslims I see and you should too," is not.  This is where we draw the line between morons like the Westboro Baptist 'Church' and speech that truly does indicate a threat.  All speech is not protected, but I suspect that Madam A.G. intends to move the line way left of center on this one.  Even if she doesn't, the fact she put it out there can have an unconstitutional chilling effect on free speech in the public square.

Is it 2016 yet?


----------



## policemedic (Dec 6, 2015)

RackMaster said:


> Yup and Quebec is starting a new long gun registry.



Merde.

Soon I won't even be able to think of guns when I visit my hometown.


----------



## Marine0311 (Dec 6, 2015)

policemedic said:


> Correct.  "I hate all Muslims" is Constitutional speech.  "I'm going to kill all Muslims I see and you should too," is not.  This is where we draw the line between morons like the Westboro Baptist 'Church' and speech that truly does indicate a threat.  All speech is not protected, but I suspect that Madam A.G. intends to move the line way left of center on this one.  Even if she doesn't, the fact she put it out there can have an unconstitutional chilling effect on free speech in the public square.
> 
> Is it 2016 yet?



Isn't "hate speech" not protected under the First Amendment? 

It seems to me these shooters have/had a degree of protection to say whet they wanted via social media.


----------



## policemedic (Dec 6, 2015)

Marine0311 said:


> Isn't "hate speech" not protected under the First Amendment?
> 
> It seems to me these shooters have/had a degree of protection to say whet they wanted via social media.



It is to a degree.  Westboro is the best example.  My guys have had to staff details to protect them while they spewed their filth.  That said, not everything is protected.


----------



## Marine0311 (Dec 6, 2015)

policemedic said:


> It is to a degree.  Westboro is the best example.  My guys have had to staff details to protect them while they spewed their filth.  That said, not everything is protected.



So what people say on, let's say FB is protected if they are preaching violence and or talking about going on a killing spree?


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 6, 2015)

policemedic said:


> Correct.  "I hate all Muslims," is Constitutional speech.  "I'm going to kill all Muslims I see and you should too," is not.  This is where we draw the line between morons like the Westboro Baptist 'Church' and speech that truly does indicate a threat.  All speech is not protected, but I suspect that Madam A.G. intends to move the line way left of center on this one.  Even if she doesn't, the fact she put it out there can have an unconstitutional chilling effect on free speech in the public square.
> 
> Is it 2016 yet?


She will have to explain why Sinister Farrakhan can call for his followers to kill whites.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 6, 2015)

Marine0311 said:


> So what people say on, let's say FB is protected if they are preaching violence and or talking about going on a killing spree?


No, saying I am going on a killing spree can get you arrested/convicted (state by state)


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 6, 2015)

Marine0311 said:


> So what people say on, let's say FB is protected if they are preaching violence and or talking about going on a killing spree?



You can hate all day, just can't make threats.


----------



## policemedic (Dec 7, 2015)

Marine0311 said:


> So what people say on, let's say FB is protected if they are preaching violence and or talking about going on a killing spree?



Nope.  Say something like, "Kill all Marines, starting with Marine0311 who lives in XXXX! Do it for the spaghetti monster!" on Facebook and not only have you engaged in speech not protected by the 1st Amendment but several state and federal (because you used the interwebz) crimes.

On the other hand, if you say something like, "Marines travel on Navy ships so the sailors have someone uglier than they are to dance with," you're just telling the truth .


----------



## Salt USMC (Dec 7, 2015)

NY Daily News brings you the hard-hitting news that the MSM won't cover 

*Stasi: San Bernardino killers were radical, ISIS-loving monsters — but one of their victims was just as bigoted*

Fuck that trashy rag for pissing on the dead.


----------



## Totentanz (Dec 7, 2015)

RackMaster said:


> Yup and Quebec is starting a new long gun registry.



In other words, re-initiating an anti-gun proposal that an anti-gun Canadian national government decided was an ineffective waste of resources?  Talk about doubling down on stupid.


----------



## Totentanz (Dec 7, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> NY Daily News brings you the hard-hitting news that the MSM won't cover
> 
> *Stasi: San Bernardino killers were radical, ISIS-loving monsters — but one of their victims was just as bigoted*
> 
> Fuck that trashy rag for pissing on the dead.



Great insight... I'm sure that'll help.  
[/sarc]


----------



## Brill (Dec 7, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Can I not hire anyone who says they are a devout Muslim?
> Seriously, when the McVaes pop up Christians are quick to point out that these individuals are not following Christ's words; yet a Muslim Terrorist is described as devout (which also implies pius).
> This also implies (despite claims contrary) that their actions are in ccordance with their scripture.
> 
> ...



Regarding radical Christians, the New Testament teaches and is firmly based on forgiveness and love.  There is not one mainstream widely accepted Christian group that advocates violence. Devout Christians "turn the other cheek".

Regarding Islam, read this paper, written by Adullah Azzam, the father of the modern jihadist movement.  Please note how often it QUOTES the Quran and Azzam's degree in Sharia.

Religioscope - Document - Azzam - Defence of the Muslim Lands - 1

This little gem was written by a Paki BG but cites Quran verses and religious leaders as basis for jihad.

http://strategicstudiesinstitute.army.mil/pubs/parameters/Articles/06winter/win-ess.pdf


----------



## Brill (Dec 7, 2015)

policemedic said:


> Correct.  "I hate all Muslims," is Constitutional speech.  "I'm going to kill all Muslims I see and you should too," is not.  This is where we draw the line between morons like the Westboro Baptist 'Church' and speech that truly does indicate a threat.  All speech is not protected, but I suspect that Madam A.G. intends to move the line way left of center on this one.  Even if she doesn't, the fact she put it out there can have an unconstitutional chilling effect on free speech in the public square.
> 
> Is it 2016 yet?



Well, Jerimah Wright isn't preaching hate either?


----------



## Gunz (Dec 7, 2015)

In the Bizarro World you have to be nice and respectful to the people who want to kill you and your children and your ancestors and your dog and burn your house to the fucking ground.

In the Bizarro World when somebody kills 3,000 people with boxcutters and hijacked jetliners, when somebody blows up the Boston Marathon with a home-made bomb, when somebody damn near paralyzes the nation with powdered anthrax and some stamps, when the majority of your casualties from two wars against Muslim jihadists are from improvised explosive devices...your formula to stop terrorism is more gun control.

Good luck with that.


----------



## RackMaster (Dec 7, 2015)

policemedic said:


> Merde.
> 
> Soon I won't even be able to think of guns when I visit my hometown.



Not even in French or the Gestapo will send you to the gulags.



Totentanz said:


> In other words, re-initiating an anti-gun proposal that an anti-gun Canadian national government decided was an ineffective waste of resources?  Talk about doubling down on stupid.



Exactly.  And then the "Shiny Pony" PM  had "getting assault weapons and handguns off the streets" in the Throne speech.  So I'm going to need to redirect my savings into buying new guns.


----------



## JBS (Dec 7, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> NY Daily News brings you the hard-hitting news that the MSM won't cover
> 
> *Stasi: San Bernardino killers were radical, ISIS-loving monsters — but one of their victims was just as bigoted*
> 
> Fuck that trashy rag for pissing on the dead.


Holy crap!

That's truly unbelievable.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 7, 2015)

lindy said:


> Well, Jerimah Wright isn't preaching hate either?


But can "Rev" Wright find scripture to back him up?
He's just as hateful as Sharpton, Jackson and the late "Rev" Phelps; they can't find scripture to back their claims either.


----------



## Fin109 (Dec 7, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> NY Daily News brings you the hard-hitting news that the MSM won't cover
> 
> *Stasi: San Bernardino killers were radical, ISIS-loving monsters — but one of their victims was just as bigoted*
> 
> Fuck that trashy rag for pissing on the dead.




Whoa? Don't really even know how to respond to that really. Just... Dang.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 7, 2015)

I also posted this video here  with my comments.   

United States & Gun Control discussion.


----------



## nobodythank you (Dec 7, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> when somebody damn near paralyzes the nation with powdered anthrax and some stamps


The anthrax attacks were suspected to be homegrown and not Islamic in nature. The FBI even had a suspect who killed himself before he could be interrogated Here is the FBI summary if you're interested. I don't disagree with your post, just wanted to clarify that so no one tries to attack your argument in the future. 


> In August 2008, Department of Justice and FBI officials announced a breakthrough in the case and released documents and information showing that charges were about to be brought against Dr. Bruce Ivins, who took his own life before those charges could be filed.



It is rumored that this was the wrong guy. However, nothing has surfaced as of yet to validate that claim one way or the other.


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 7, 2015)

JBS said:


> Holy crap!
> 
> That's truly unbelievable.


Hopefully they get an earful from readers.


----------



## poison (Dec 7, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> NY Daily News brings you the hard-hitting news that the MSM won't cover
> 
> *Stasi: San Bernardino killers were radical, ISIS-loving monsters — but one of their victims was just as bigoted*
> 
> Fuck that trashy rag for pissing on the dead.



IImplication: he kind of deserved it. 

Morons.


----------



## racing_kitty (Dec 7, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> NY Daily News brings you the hard-hitting news that the MSM won't cover
> 
> *Stasi: San Bernardino killers were radical, ISIS-loving monsters — but one of their victims was just as bigoted*
> 
> Fuck that trashy rag for pissing on the dead.



Haven't read anything from today's issue, but here's the cover. Not as bad as yesterday, but it's still pretty fucked.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Dec 7, 2015)

racing_kitty said:


> Haven't read anything from today's issue, but here's the cover. Not as bad as yesterday, but it's still pretty fucked.
> 
> View attachment 14566



Good thing they added puppies. Even crazy talk can be blunted by batches of puppies. I know, screw the "news" what this nation really needs is a few reality shows about puppies.


----------



## Rapid (Dec 7, 2015)

California attackers had target practice - BBC News

*California attackers had target practice*

I love how the press is now focusing on how they had target practice. Because that's a lot more scary (guns!) than the real problem of people like this becoming radicalised.

As if it'd be a surprise that someone who decided to commit vehicular homicide learned how to drive first.


----------



## AWP (Dec 7, 2015)

Rapid said:


> As if it'd be a surprise that someone who decided to commit vehicular homicide learned how to drive first.



Slow down, sparky, we ain't got time for none of that logic nonsense. Here's a puppy instead. Look at the puppy! Now don't you feel better?


----------



## policemedic (Dec 7, 2015)

Rapid said:


> California attackers had target practice - BBC News
> 
> *California attackers had target practice*
> 
> ...


 
I'll bet they also had bomb making practice too.....  Wonder when we'll see the reports of that.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Dec 7, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Slow down, sparky, we ain't got time for none of that logic nonsense. Here's a puppy instead. Look at the puppy! Now don't you feel better?



Yeah, yeah see there, it woiks don't it?


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Dec 7, 2015)

policemedic said:


> I'll bet they also had bomb making practice too.....  Wonder when we'll see the reports of that.



That will need to come from the BBC too, unless the media here gets the nod to run the story.


----------



## Gunz (Dec 7, 2015)

ke4gde said:


> The anthrax attacks were suspected to be homegrown and not Islamic in nature. The FBI even had a suspect who killed himself before he could be interrogated Here is the FBI summary if you're interested. I don't disagree with your post, just wanted to clarify that so no one tries to attack your argument in the future.
> 
> 
> It is rumored that this was the wrong guy. However, nothing has surfaced as of yet to validate that claim one way or the other.


 

Rog that, brother. I could've added McVeigh in there, too, since my post was basically "nobody needs guns to create carnage."

I remember the anthrax investigation quite well. They were focused at first on Stephen Hatfill, an American bio-weapons researcher at Ft Detrick who was reported to have served in Rhodesia as a medic with the Selous Scouts and Rhody SAS...and he won millions in a settlement with the Government. I did a lot of reading on this dude. Apparently his claim that he served with USA Special Forces was bogus and he's not on the roster for Selous Scouts.


----------



## policemedic (Dec 7, 2015)

lindy said:


> Well, Jerimah Wright isn't preaching hate either?


 
It's clearly racially motivated hate speech, no surprise there.  But he has the right to be hateful and stupid.


----------



## TH15 (Dec 7, 2015)

Well, that escalated quickly..


----------



## Brill (Dec 7, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> But can "Rev" Wright find scripture to back him up?



He probably can cherry pick parts of the Bible to back up his hate however, his garbage isn't accepted by any main stream followers nor is it accepted internationally.  If Christianity did in fact preach hate, there would be a *substantial amount* of hate crimes/terror attacks in the name of God.

Source for below graph: 






How many Al Qaida, IS, Hezbollah, Al Shabab, Boko Haram, or Hamas followers are NOT Muslim?

A growing issue worldwide, terrorism, has caused around* 130,000 fatalities* worldwide between 2006 and 2013.

Topic: Terrorism


----------



## Brill (Dec 7, 2015)

TH15 said:


> Well, that escalated quickly..



Here's yet another one TH!

Fox’s Stacey Dash: Obama Doesn’t ‘Give a Shit’ About Terrorism


----------



## SpitfireV (Dec 7, 2015)

That puppy looks delicious.


----------



## RetPara (Dec 7, 2015)

Wow....  Did you guys realize the SUV they used was a rental?  I wonder if he took out the damage insurance on it.....


----------



## TH15 (Dec 7, 2015)

RetPara said:


> Wow....  Did you guys realize the SUV they used was a rental?  I wonder if he took out the damage insurance on it.....


Wow, that does suck for the rental company. However, I'm not terribly surprised by it. The drug dealers where I lived in Florida used rental cars to deliver their "goods." If the police caught them, the car that was impounded wasn't theirs anyway.

There was allegedly a $28,000 deposit into the suspects' bank account on Nov. 18.



> On or about Nov.20, Fox News is told Farook converted $10,000 to cash, and withdrew the money at a Union Bank branch in San Bernardino.  Afterwards, in the days before the shooting, there were at least three transfers of $5,000 that appear to be to Farook’s mother.



Bank records show $28,500 deposit to Syed Farook's account two weeks before the shooting, source says | Fox News


----------



## Dame (Dec 7, 2015)

Well lookie here! Muslims against Islamists. These folks need a hell of a lot more media exposure.


> During the panel discussion, Naser Khader, a member of the Parliament in Denmark of the Conservative People’s Party addressed ISIS directly, saying: “We reject the idea of an Islamic state.” He went on to discuss how Muslims must address ISIS:
> 
> “We cannot say that the Islamic State are not Muslims. That is what they call themselves.
> 
> ...


Muslim Group Calls Out PC Culture for Being too Afraid to Take Down Islamic Extremism


----------



## Centermass (Dec 8, 2015)

lindy said:


> Here's yet another one TH!
> 
> Fox’s Stacey Dash: Obama Doesn’t ‘Give a Shit’ About Terrorism



Both of them are now in time out. Hell, I'm sure both of them knew it was coming, but said "Fuck it" 

Fox News Suspends Ralph Peters And Stacey Dash For "Completely Inappropriate And Unacceptable" Remarks


----------



## Brill (Dec 8, 2015)

Dame said:


> Well lookie here! Muslims against Islamists. These folks need a hell of a lot more media exposure.
> 
> Muslim Group Calls Out PC Culture for Being too Afraid to Take Down Islamic Extremism



It will stay hidden because it runs contrary to our own internal information operations.  The info is out there...just gotta dig.

What The Atlantic Left Out About ISIS According To Their Own Expert


----------



## AWP (Dec 8, 2015)

Dame said:


> Well lookie here! Muslims against Islamists. These folks need a hell of a lot more media exposure.
> 
> Muslim Group Calls Out PC Culture for Being too Afraid to Take Down Islamic Extremism



To borrow from Jon Stewart, ladies and gentlemen, here is you moment of zen:



> If we the Muslims do not face the problem of violence that links to Islam in our time, how will we ever succeed in ripping Islam out of the hands of these destructive powers and lift our religion into the 21st century?”



We've said that a couple of two, three, dozen times on this board alone, so thanks for showing up to the game a decade and a half later.



> “We have all heard ‘Where are the Muslim voices?’… here we are, and we have others like us.”



"Others", huh? Unless "others" is measured in hundreds of millions then I can only offer a "so what" in return.



> “Our jihad is a struggle for reformation. We are in a struggle for the future of our world… it is a struggle of ideology.”



Signed,
N.S. al-Sherlock

Look, I'm pleased to see someone from that side of the aisle speak out, but like lindy said, it doesn't meet "our" message or worldview. Unless these guys have a prolonged media campaign and grow their numbers exponentially every month none of this will matter. This is a struggle of ideology, so good of you to join the party, but you're just now figuring this out or you've screamed it for the past GENERATION and no one listened?

Here's something to consider: If the media is left-leaning, and the left tends to be PC and wants to embrace humanity and blah, blah, blah, why aren't THEY trumpeting this message? You'd think these humanists would put the big, bag conservative war-mongers and Muslim haters in our places with this story, but where is it? Where are MSNBC, CNN, and the others?

Vermin.

I applaud the story but unless this movement brings a few hundred million to the show? Yawn. We're already running out of bombs.

ETA: Stacey Dash....Mmm, Stacey Dash....


----------



## Gunz (Dec 8, 2015)

Centermass said:


> Both of them are now in time out. Hell, I'm sure both of them knew it was coming, but said "Fuck it"
> 
> Fox News Suspends Ralph Peters And Stacey Dash For "Completely Inappropriate And Unacceptable" Remarks


 
Anytime they spell your name right it's good publicity.


----------



## Salt USMC (Dec 8, 2015)

racing_kitty said:


> Haven't read anything from today's issue, but here's the cover. Not as bad as yesterday, but it's still pretty fucked.
> 
> View attachment 14566


Today I learned that NY Daily News is pretty much on its last legs.  They were put up for sale earlier this year, nobody wanted to buy them, and have been doing a ton of mass layoffs recently.  They have one foot in the grave so right now they're probably thinking "Fuck it, we'll do it live!!"


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 8, 2015)

Dash and Peters were both correct, just not PC. If Fox suspends them for a while, it would speak well of Fox News.
My $.02.


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## Gunz (Dec 8, 2015)

Deathy McDeath said:


> Today I learned that NY Daily News is pretty much on its last legs.  They were put up for sale earlier this year, nobody wanted to buy them, and have been doing a ton of mass layoffs recently.  They have one foot in the grave so right now they're probably thinking "Fuck it, we'll do it live!!"


 

Nobody reads fuckin newspapers anymore. Paper dinosaurs. They're all folding...so they gotta make as big a noise as they can just to get somebody to pay them some attention. That's why the NY Times ran that "unprecedented" anti-gun editorial on it's formerly sacred Page One. When your ass is sinking in quicksand you gotta make noise. Fuck them all.


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## DA SWO (Dec 8, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> What's the matter with horses? What are they, chopped liver?





Ocoka One said:


> Nobody reads fuckin newspapers anymore. Paper dinosaurs. They're all folding...so they gotta make as big a noise as they can just to get somebody to pay them some attention. That's why the NY Times ran that "unprecedented" anti-gun editorial on it's formerly sacred Page One. When your ass is sinking in quicksand you gotta make noise. Fuck them all.


People running papers seem to ignore a basic business rule.
Know your customer, If I am uber liberal and my target audience is conservative/moderate then my target audience will pass by.
The welfare queen doesn't read a fucking paper, and neither does the unemployed (or employed) recent college grad.
Older more conservative people use to read the paper and many (like me) stopped when the paper just became a democratic talking point.
Small town, conservative papers are holding their own (barely) but city papers lost, walked away from, their readers years ago.
I have no sympathy for them either.


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## Devildoc (Dec 8, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Small town, conservative papers are holding their own (barely)....



...and these are dying by the week.  They used to be the foundation to grow "real newspaper" reporters, but given the whopping $10,000/year salaries and decline of sales, these people are folding their tents, too.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 8, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> People running papers seem to ignore a basic business rule.
> Know your customer, If I am uber liberal and my target audience is conservative/moderate then my target audience will pass by.
> The welfare queen doesn't read a fucking paper, and neither does the unemployed (or employed) recent college grad.
> Older more conservative people use to read the paper and many (like me) stopped when the paper just became a democratic talking point.
> ...



In local and regional newspapers, excluding rags from state capitals, the practice of journalism is still alive and well; plus theu have decent crossword puzzles. When you are reading the bigger papers, the political influence is pretty obvious. Input from the White House and State Houses just seems to be about the only transparence out there. Even Motor Trend seems to have had a bias for GM products. Truck of the year: Chevy Colorado; there was no Ford product even looked at. Seems a bit odd to exclude the first Aluminum bodied truck ever offered. Car of the year: Chevy Camaro; again there was not a Ford included in the evaluations. Spin, and shaping of news is everywhere. I stick with my regional and local papers for news, and the crossword puzzles. For CONUS and world news I go with internet sources including the BBC, and even Al Jazeera America news. I am sick of the spin. I get Motor Trend because it is a two year gift subscription.


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## Brill (Dec 8, 2015)

@Freefalling , I honestly think the MSM is afraid of a Charlie Hebo-type incident.

“If Muslims start criticizing these texts that ISIS is using, saying that they are no longer relevant or no longer applicable, ISIS would declare them apostate,” Haykel said. “If you start telling ISIS that following a tradition of the prophet has been abrogated, has been superseded by some other tradition or some other verse, or that it’s no longer valid, or that it applies only to the seventh century but not today because we’re modern, you will be declared an apostate on the spot by ISIS.”


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## Fin109 (Dec 8, 2015)

It's a pretty sad state of affairs all of this, and I must partly blame my generation and the generation that grew up in the 90's. None of this stuff to me is hardly political anymore. Pretty positive the people born ten years before I slowly transformed everything into an issue on political correctness. Its not about Left or Right anymore, everything is focused on this. If I was to tell someone that I consider myself left, that doesn't mean I have to feed into PC garbage either.

Seems politics aren't furthering and people are really just focused on how to not hurt anyone's precious feelings. Pretty frustrating/infuriating to not really be able to do anything about it other than wait and hope people quit and decide to make POLITICAL change. Ah... Oh well. Maybe all there really is to do is just... 

wait

-Rant deactivated 

P.S; Like someone said above me, most of this crap is in mainstream media anyhow. Find a good alternative news outlet and spread that stuff


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 8, 2015)

I think it actually had more to do with the baby boomers than Gen X or the Millennials. But that's debatable on many levels, the issue is identification and correction at this point.


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## AWP (Dec 8, 2015)

This is an incremental failing starting with the "Greatest" Generation. We hit "peak 'Merica" in 1945 and those returning Vets raised the war protestors of the 60's who in turn raised my generation, etc. This isn't one generation's fault, this is my grandparents', and parents', and mine, and....


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## Raptor (Dec 9, 2015)

Even if it was one generation's fault, it's affecting all of our generations, so it's not just one generation's problem to fix.


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## TLDR20 (Dec 9, 2015)

Fin109 said:


> It's a pretty sad state of affairs all of this, and I must partly blame my generation and the generation that grew up in the 90's. None of this stuff to me is hardly political anymore. Pretty positive the people born ten years before I slowly transformed everything into an issue on political correctness.



Those who grew up in the nineties also spent the last 15 years fighting wars while you were sucking on your mommies tits.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 9, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Those who grew up in the nineties also spent the last 15 years fighting wars while you were sucking on your mommies tits.



I was really thinking, growing up we (gen x) were probably some of the most politically incorrect people around. I didn't stop calling people "fag" until the Army told me I would get I trouble for it.

Either way, 80's and 90's had the best music, best tv shows, and we didn't worry too much about offending anyone.

ETA: Now that I really think about it, my first introduction to political correctness was the Army, in OSUT, when we couldn't sing our 'good' cadence's anymore b/c of female soldiers might be offended. We did anyway, but it was only in our a/o. But yep, I never worried shit about what I said until I joined the Army.


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## Devildoc (Dec 9, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> This is an incremental failing starting with the "Greatest" Generation. We hit "peak 'Merica" in 1945 and those returning Vets raised the war protestors of the 60's who in turn raised my generation, etc. This isn't one generation's fault, this is my grandparents', and parents', and mine, and....



Yup, each generation putting a new ingredient in the recipe for the shit sandwich we have before us.  Part of it is the old "I want my kids to have it better than I did."  That's well and good but carries unintended consequences.


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## Gunz (Dec 9, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Those who grew up in the nineties also spent the last 15 years fighting wars while you were sucking on your mommies tits.


 
But sadly too few of you, IMO, had to (and have to) carry the burdon of those wars. Can't remember the source but I read recently that post-conscription only 1% of the population defends the rest of us.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 9, 2015)

It's actually less like 0.8%


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## TLDR20 (Dec 9, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> It's actually less like 0.8%



Is active at any particular time, more than that have served at one time or another.


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## Totentanz (Dec 9, 2015)

Ocoka One said:


> But sadly too few of you, IMO, had to (and have to) carry the burdon of those wars. Can't remember the source but I read recently that post-conscription only 1% of the population defends the rest of us.



Just keep in mind two things

1) that's a rotating ~1%.  It's 1% at any given time with the people coming and going.  I don't know what the veteran percentage of the US population is, but I'd wager it's several times that 1%.
2) That 1% is set by Congress.  It's going to decrease over the next few years, not out of anyone's lack of desire to serve, but because the services have mandated strength levels.


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## Totentanz (Dec 9, 2015)

Just for my own curiosity I fired up the Google machine.  Here's what the Census has to say: How Do We Know? A Snapshot of Our Nation's Veterans


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## Fin109 (Dec 9, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Those who grew up in the nineties also spent the last 15 years fighting wars while you were sucking on your mommies tits.


That's true, I suppose I always forget where I have grown up at as well, which is pretty much the hippy hotbed of the south. 



Ocoka One said:


> But sadly too few of you, IMO, had to (and have to) carry the burdon of those wars. Can't remember the source but I read recently that post-conscription only 1% of the population defends the rest of us.



I've read this figure somewhere as well, can't remember from where exactly now.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 9, 2015)

Roughly 320 million American's, with 1.4 million serving on AD and a additional 800+ thousand in the reserves. With roughly 22 million total American veterans (people who served at one point in the military). 

So yeah, its under 1% of the population that have served, ever.


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## Totentanz (Dec 9, 2015)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Roughly 320 million American's, with 1.4 million serving on AD and a additional 800+ thousand in the reserves. With roughly 22 million total American veterans (people who served at one point in the military).
> 
> So yeah, its under 1% of the population that have served, *ever*.



The math geek in me is twitching: total living vets is approximately 22 million, population of the United States is approximately 320, gives us 22/320 is just south of 7%.  Not 1%.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 9, 2015)

Totentanz said:


> The math geek in me is twitching: total living vets is approximately 22 million, population of the United States in 320, gives us 22/320 is just south of 7%.  Not 1%.



Yep, I'm all kinds of stupid this morning, I was adding a zero to my 1% of the population bad mathematical thoughts. This dumb grunt is getting another cup of coffee now and going to practice counting to ten with my fingers...


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## TLDR20 (Dec 9, 2015)




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## AWP (Dec 9, 2015)

Jesus Christ....Marines learning to read, the Infantry learning math....THIS IS HOW THE WORLD ENDS, PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

If pilots learn humility, I'm off this rock.


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## Devildoc (Dec 9, 2015)

Contrast these numbers with WWII, in which one in four men served.  I know there was a war and a draft, but people had a MUCH higher sense of national pride and community service.  Regardless of how they were inducted (volunteered vs drafted), because of the sheer number, the military touched almost everyone, so everyone "understood."  Now, no one "understands", and we (people who are or have been in the mil) are looked at like we are carnival freaks, with a mix of wonderment, fear, and disdain.


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## TLDR20 (Dec 9, 2015)

Devildoc said:


> Contrast these numbers with WWII, in which one in four men served.  .



Yeah that isn't right either. At the highest point it was 9% serving and total World War Two vets lines up somewhere around 13%. No where near 1 out of 4


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## RetPara (Dec 9, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Jesus Christ....Marines learning to read, the Infantry learning math....THIS IS HOW THE WORLD ENDS, PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> If pilots learn humility, I'm off this rock.



The Final Sign Of The End Of Times......


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## Devildoc (Dec 9, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah that isn't right either. At the highest point it was 9% serving and total World War Two vets lines up somewhere around 13%. No where near 1 out of 4



I had heard "around 10%" bantered around most of my life, and for some reason "1 in 7" sticks in my mind, but got this number from here:

https://www.quora.com/What-percent-...ut-of-the-entire-population-of-men-in-America

I think looking at data retrospectively, and this is where I know the link I put up gets weird, is looking at men by age group, by certain demographics, active vs all components, etc.

To your point, even if it is 9%, that is still VERY significant.  That's a lot of men.


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## DA SWO (Dec 9, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah that isn't right either. At the highest point it was 9% serving and total World War Two vets lines up somewhere around 13%. No where near 1 out of 4


Are you counting rotal population, or just the male percentage?


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## TLDR20 (Dec 9, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> Are you counting rotal population, or just the male percentage?



Total serving vs total population. Same as we did for the current numbers.


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## Brill (Dec 9, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Those who grew up in the nineties also spent the last 15 years fighting wars while you were sucking on your mommies tits.



point of order: do NOT search titties on twitter.:wall:


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## policemedic (Dec 9, 2015)

lindy said:


> point of order: do NOT search titties on twitter.:wall:



If you do find tits on Twitter, are they twits?


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## Brill (Dec 9, 2015)

policemedic said:


> If you do find tits on Twitters, are they twits?



Dunno...butt they're BIG.


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## busdriver (Dec 9, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> If pilots learn humility, I'm off this rock.


Certain things just aren't in the realm of possibility.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 10, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Jesus Christ....Marines learning to read, the Infantry learning math....THIS IS HOW THE WORLD ENDS, PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> If pilots learn humility, I'm off this rock.



I have never had a tire failure on launch or landing. Thanks to the tire guys.

Does that work for ya?


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## Grunt (Dec 10, 2015)

Freefalling said:


> Jesus Christ....Marines learning to read, the Infantry learning math....THIS IS HOW THE WORLD ENDS, PEOPLE!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
> 
> If pilots learn humility, I'm off this rock.



This year I have increased my vocabulary by six new words...that means I am up to 217 words that I can use on my own without any help....


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## Dame (Dec 11, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I have never had a tire failure on launch or landing. Thanks to the tire guys.
> Does that work for ya?



Oh lordy. AND a pilot? Where are my smelling salts?


(See @Freefalling , I can cure the whole humility thing pretty quickly.)


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## RetPara (Dec 11, 2015)

Agoge said:


> This year I have increased my vocabulary by six new words...that means I am up to 217 words that I can use on my own without any help....



Does your caregiver post some of the shit you do in your name or do they actually write some of the semi co-coherent that is posted in your own words?


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## RetPara (Dec 11, 2015)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I have never had a tire failure on launch or landing. Thanks to the tire guys.
> Does that work for ya?



Truly terrifying...  but it lacks the true ring of sincerity.


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