# Random Thoughts from an Old Support Guy



## AWP (Jan 7, 2012)

I don't know why I just typed these up and while they are geared towards support an SF battalion, many of these points could apply to any unit or branch. Feel free to add or subtract from my observations as needed. If it helps one person, my job is done.

I haven’t worn a uniform in over a decade, so my advice is hardly up-to-date. However, I would like to pass along some thoughts which I think are valid regardless of the year. Take or leave these, agree or disagree, you’re welcome to your own opinion(s).
- You aren’t “cool.” You aren’t a door kicker. You aren’t the Punisher. You’re a support guy, an enabler, a facilitator. Your job is to support the “cool” guy door-kicker, Frank Castle types. “Support”: to give strength to; maintain; to provide the necessities of life. Your job is important, every job is important, but you aren’t the tip of the spear and you aren’t why the unit exists. I see too many, far too many, support guys forget these basic concepts.
- There are numerous opportunities for support guys to go downrange or be attached to an ODA or ODB. Don’t call them, they will call you, and don’t forget the point above. You will be there to give strength to the ODA, not become the focal point.
- With those in mind, you should ALWAYS strive to be the best soldier possible. Mentally, physically, technically, and tactically proficient. Know your job inside and out but your PT sucks? You stay at the FOB. Great physical conditioning but you aren’t as MOS proficient as other soldiers. You stay at the FOB. You have both of the above but your personality sucks? You stay at the FOB. An ODA is not going to invest time and money to nursemaid you, they will take the best fit for their organization to accomplish the mission. The faster runner isn’t always the best receiver on a football team.
- Your fancy-pants tactical nylon and fear-inducing bloodthirsty patches don’t make you a good soldier and they don’t make you a killer. They make you look like a clown who is trying to be cool by association.
- DO NOT JOIN TO DO “COOL” GUY STUFF. I can’t emphasize this enough. What do you do when you break your leg on a jump? Can’t be promoted? Moved to another unit? You’d better like your MOS, not the Sierra identifier. 
- If you want a guaranteed way to do “cool” guy stuff, then you need to spend a few weeks at Camp Mackall demonstrating that you have what it take to start the Special Forces Q Course.
- The team won’t keep you forever, you WILL go back to your “day job” in Support Company. This is a time for you to further excel, not brag and tell war stories. This is your time to pass along your knowledge and experiences to other soldiers, not hoard it away so you’ll always “be the man.” Your fellow soldiers will see through you and conduct a brutal character assassination.
- The team can do their job(s) without you. Period. Don’t forget this. The question is, did they go to the Q Course to repair vehicles or file travel vouchers? Nope. Your job allows them to focus on their job. You aren’t indispensible and you may be a great soldier, but you are replaceable.
- Don’t be afraid to tell an ODA “No” but remember that if push comes to shove, you’ll probably lose the fight. That’s a fact of life. You can be 100% right and still lose the argument. Deal with it, don’t carry a grudge, move forward.
- That SF unit patch does not give you carte blanche to be a douche bag in public. On the contrary, you should strive for a higher standard in dress, appearance, and behavior in public. Represent your unit well and remember point #3 above.
- Don’t hunt for badges or schools, hunt for educational opportunities that allow you to give something back to the unit. Yeah, Pathfinder is sexy and everything, but you’re better off asking for additional training for your MOS. A course to maintain MRAPs or a lab on Cisco routers, maybe learn a database and SQL queries. At the end of the day the only people to care about your Pathfinder or Air Assault badge are little kids and your own inflated ego, but a guy who can help an 18F with biometrics or geospatial analysis has marketable skill sets.
- Prove yourself to your unit and peers first, exceptional opportunities won’t happen without success there.


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## Brill (Jan 7, 2012)

Great post Free.

I feel that it is prudent to add that it is a widely shared reality that there is a distinct difference between SOF support jobs and SOF direct support jobs. I would also add that some of FF's posts are spot on for both Support roles however direct support jobs carry additional responsibilities of maturity, MOS proficiency, and situational awareness (understanding how/when your capabilities enable or detract from the overall mission of the SOTF down to ODA from garrison to battlefield).

I totally agree with the overall point: if you want to do cool guy shit, go to your service's assessment & selection course.  If you are a support guy and stray into "I'm too cool for my Oakleys" (e.g. showing up to SFAUCC with disks in your ears), my SNCO support brothers and I will kick you in the f'ing teeth because you are negatively effecting the perception of us.


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## CDG (Jan 7, 2012)

lindy said:


> (e.g. showing up to SFAUCC with disks in your ears), .


  WTF?


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## 0699 (Jan 7, 2012)

I used to tell Marines (and I think it fits this thread) that the first two steps in being "high speed" are 1) reliability/responsibility and 2) know your MOS.  Everything else comes after those.  If I can't trust you to do the right thing or you don't know your MOS, you're no good to me.  Just because you went to jump/scuba/etc, doesn't mean you can get a DUI your first weekend back from school.


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## bugkill (May 26, 2013)

I know this is an old thread, but I feel the need to address what Freefalling (FF) wrote since it was my first time seeing this. I served nearly 3 years in a SF battalion as a 92A (Automated Logistical Specialist) and I was a former Infantryman prior to that. I understand what FF was saying, but I have a problem with what he thinks SOF support really means. First of all, our job is to support/sustain the *SF mission*, not to facilitate or enable the teams. We are not the team's bitch boys and we certainly did not answer to them. I had my lane and they had theirs, but we all belonged to the same team. The operators CHOSE to be Green Berets and we chose whatever MOS we wanted to do. No Green Beret, Ranger, or whatever else operator out there should be concerned with what support personnel do, except when it impacts what they are doing. 

Your description of a "cool guy" is pretty funny, but I can assure you that the SOF support folks that I worked did not care for the title or even really cared about what the operators thought. We jumped out of airplanes, got trained on various combat techniques by the operators, and were able to attend a number of schools that support personnel in the Army rarely get a chance to go to, which is basically "cool guy" shit in our world. For us, we don't have to go to Selection or the Q course, being in the unit was good enough compared to what the conventional side offered. Doing our job is what mattered the most because our job was critical to overall mission success, not for pleasing the teams or being called a "cool guy". The operators CANNOT do our jobs, just like we can't do theirs, not a big deal when you think about it. However, it was my RESPONSIBILITY to tell operators "No" and I never lost a battle when I did it because I was the subject matter expert on logistics and it was my ass on the line, not the operators. I had already proven that I would go above and beyond to help the mission get accomplished, but I also had a duty to not put my command in a bind because the things I do go beyond the unit much of the time, especially when it concerns thousands of dollars worth of equipment. Commanders lose their jobs when troops like us don't do our jobs correctly, simple as that.

I take great pride in being a Paratrooper, Infantryman, and Quartermaster Soldier. I see myself as a professional who risked his life on numerous occasions on multiple deployments. When I deployed to A-stan with my SF unit, I did far more duties (that took me outside the wire a lot) than what was required for my job and some of it had ZERO to do with the ODA's. There are other things that go on outside of the A and B teams that can impact mission success. When I was serving in the infantry, it always chaffed my ass to hear infantrymen talk shit about support troops or complain about how easy they got it. I always told them that we chose this life of suck and there is no reason to talk about the support guys. Many of them wished they were us and some of the time we secretly wished we could have it as good as them, but we all chose the jobs we wanted. FF is not the first person to bring up the "cool guy" thing and like I said before, I understand what he was saying. But I want to make it clear that the vast majority of SOF personnel don't view ourselves as operators or anything close to that because we don't have to. We are members of the unit and we are special operations soldiers, what we do actually does matter. Not everyone can do the job proficiently and that is why some have been sent down the street and last I checked, it happens within the ranks of the operators as well.

You can have all the badges and schools you want, but in the end it is all about the unit you serve in and the job you did to help mission success. All the other "cool guy" bullshit don't matter and it never really did. You could be a full blown operator or a cook, but in the end, did you do your damn job? SOF support soldiers can have all the pride they want for serving in a special operations unit and no one should be trying to piss on it. Yeah, you got knuckleheads out there that take it to the extreme, but to paint with a broad brush and make it about SOF support in general is not right. There are far more professional SOF support troops than the idiots that make it into the ranks and let's not forget some of the riff raffs that make it through the Q course or RASP, nothing is ever perfect.

The bottom line is that you only need to look at the USASOC Memorial Wall and you will see not just the operators, but a good amount of support guys that got killed doing the mission. This idea that we are basically "second class" Soldiers is ridiculous and that is what FF's post comes off as saying in a way. Every combat unit has Shooters and Sustainers, and we are both equally critical for overall mission success, and that is the only thing that matters.


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## RackMaster (May 26, 2013)

bugkillEdit:  I apologize, after further looking; you've been a member since 2010.


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## Marauder06 (May 26, 2013)

bugkill said:


> ... This idea that we are basically "second class" Soldiers is ridiculous and that is what FF's post comes off as saying in a way. Every combat unit has Shooters and Sustainers, and we are both equally critical for overall mission success, and that is the only thing that matters.


 

If you are tabless in Group, you ARE second-class.  They even make you wear a different color hat to remind you of it.

What kinds of "special" selection and training did you have to go through to get into a Group as a support guy?  Unless things have drastically changed in the years since Freefalling and I were assigned to support SF, the answer is, "none."  Most likely, you were a needs-of-the-Army assignment to Group.  That's not a ding on you, that's the way the system works.    

There are very few jobs that an 18-series guy doesn't think (correctly, in most cases) that he or someone on his team can't do, or that they can't hire a local national to do for them.  While we certainly make it easier for them, if you think they won't do it without you, or that you're accepted as a peer, you are sadly mistaken.


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## bugkill (May 26, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> If you are tabless in Group, you ARE second-class. They even make you wear a different color hat to remind you of it.
> 
> What kinds of "special" selection and training did you have to go through to get into a Group as a support guy? Unless things have drastically changed in the years since Freefalling and I were assigned to support SF, the answer is, "none." Most likely, you were a needs-of-the-Army assignment to Group. That's not a ding on you, that's the way the system works.
> 
> There are very few jobs that an 18-series guy doesn't think (correctly, in most cases) that he or someone on his team can't do, or that they can't hire a local national to do for them. While we certainly make it easier for them, if you think they won't do it without you, or that you're accepted as a peer, you are sadly mistaken.


 
The "special" selection and training that operators get is for them to do their jobs and to weed out those not fit to do it. Don't make them "special" and sure as hell don't make them "first class". I and every other Soldier, Sailor, Marine, or Airmen, are nothing but numbers on a desk, but we are ALL equally important (and worthless) in the overall scheme of things. We all choose whatever job we want to do in the military, but NO ONE is bigger than the collective, not even the special operators. I could care less what the operators went through to attain the right for them to do their jobs, it was their choice and I respect their service, but that is as far as it goes.

I've been shot at and taken indirect fire, conducted raids in Iraq, and been on numerous patrols and convoys under combat conditions in support of the units I've served with, and I'd be damned if I'm going to allow someone with a tab or multiple tabs consider me "second class" or even allow other support troops to believe that. I've been fortunate enough to do some really cool things in my career and I was "lucky" enough to have seen combat and survive it. 

I don't know what units you served in outside of SF, but I have had the honor to have served with some of the most dedicated Soldiers I have ever met and many of them did not wear any tab. Special Forces and Special Operations units in general perform specialized missions. Yes, in some conflicts, they are the tip of the spear, but guess what? Not every mission will suit their skill set. There are missions that they can't do, much less do by themselves. I know that the special operators are the most important element in a special operations unit because they are the machine that produces the results of the mission, while the support element keeps the machine running and also perform other duties. 

What I'm basically saying is that I've done enough in my career to be able to hold my head up high and take pride in what I have done. When you have gone overseas on multiple deployments and risked your life doing your job, you don't consider yourself second rate to anyone. I hear what you are saying about 18E and the other SF MOS's and how important they are, but the bottom line is that their worth does not mean that I must accept this notion that I'm "second class" within the unit. We all have a part to play and my responsibilities were huge, but in a different way than what the operators had to do. 

To answer your question of what I did to get assigned to group, I'll lay it out to you. I made a personal call to USASOC Strength Management and spoke to a MSG there. I told him that I wanted to be assigned to a special operations unit because I wanted to get back on jump status, tired of working in leg units, and that I would be 100% dedicated to the special operations mission no matter what unit I get assigned to. He looked up the units and had no slots for my MOS, but he liked the fact that I was hooah about everything and assigned me to an overstrength SF unit, true story. The "special" training that I had was that I was damn good at my job and I was more than willing to take on other duties outside the scope of my MOS.  My performance dictated where I would go and I had to do an interview with the SGM and he liked me enough to put me in the battalion and not Grp HQ or GSC (GSB was not created yet).

Yep, no selection course to push me to my limits or a Q course to ensure that I learned the skills of a Green Beret, but guess what? Not my job and it has no bearing on what I think of myself and my fellow support Soldiers.


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## Lycurgus (May 26, 2013)

Sorry bugkill, I have to disagree.  We have plenty of support guys and I treat them with respect, but they know their place.  Everyone's job is important to the overall mission, but this is the type of attitude that pisses off operators.  Operators are not EQUAL to support. We are the guys that go on target and risk our lives day in and out, in combat and in training.


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## Teufel (May 26, 2013)




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## SpongeBob*24 (May 27, 2013)

Really...............?


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## policemedic (May 27, 2013)

bugkill 

Frankly, your situational awareness sucks.


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## bugkill (May 27, 2013)

I'm not trying to escalate anything or take issue with anyone. I'm just saying that we don't need guys telling SOF support troops that they are not "cool guys" and having a list running down how we are supposed to "act" while serving in a special operations unit. Professionalism is not something that special operators own because everyone serving in the military has to have it, but not everyone does, even some special operators. I had a great time serving in SF and the sacrifices I made for mission accomplishment matters. I may not have been tabbed and went out there to train indigenous forces and rub elbows with tribal leaders, but I sure as hell put in work and put my life on the line on numerous occasions. 

You can get badges in a number of units (I got more than two). You can roll out and get your kill on in a number of units (Shot some human beings in my time overseas). You can be a door kicker in a number of units (did raids in my time overseas). You can do a number of "cool guy" things without a tab and I resent anyone having the idea to belittle others due to their MOS who serve in a unit where everyone is committed to mission accomplishment, and where everyone has an important job to do make sure it gets done. Maybe my experience was different from other SOF support guys because I did not see it as a big deal that we got to do more training and shooting in SF. Yeah, my helmet was painted and I got the nice chest rig and got issued a M4A1 (with all the bells and whistles) and a Mk23, but it never crossed my mind that I was "cool" or that I was the shit. Gear is gear, but my job was priority #1, not schools and not badges, and I never saw anyone during my time in Group that really gave a shit about all that either.

We were all professionals and everyone did what they needed to do, there were none of this "I'm a Green Beret and you ain't shit" type of attitude going around. I would not understand why a Green Beret, Ranger, or other operator. would waste their time worrying about support Soldiers outside of them doing their jobs. Support troops have every damn right to be happy and proud to be serving in a special operations unit and doing their part, and some have paid the ultimate sacrifice doing it. They jump of out airplanes and some get to go out on missions, and if they feel like a "cool guy", I say they deserve to feel that way.


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## ZmanTX (May 27, 2013)

Bugkill,

First off thank you for your service and I understand what you are trying to say. However, I believe Freefalling's initial post was in regards to people who are a little overzealous who overstepped their boundaries by misrepresenting themselves or by trying to do more than what they are being asked...

Just my .02
ZM


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## AWP (May 27, 2013)

bugkill said:


> First of all, our job is to support/sustain the *SF mission*, not to facilitate or enable the teams.


 
I'm curious, what SF mission doesn't involve the ODA's/ ODB's? Better still, what rough percentage of SF missions don't involve the ODA's/ ODB's?

You wish to take issue with my post, that's fine, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I never stated that the support side were second class citizens. One of the points I made was that "it isn't about you" which is a mentality I've seen in Support roles. To be fair, I wouldn't even call it the mentality of every Support soldier or even a majority of Support/ Enabler types, but I've seen it enough to know that the customer is usually wary of his support slice. I've seen the mentality infect entire detachments in BSC or GSC (usually this is a leadership issue). I visited Camp Montrond as recently as 2010 and witnessed it there; it was bad enough that the BSC CDR sent an email to his leadership reminding them of many of the points I made above. The bottom line is that there are plenty of Support types out there, though they may be in the minority, who think that being in an SF unit suddenly makes them a superior soldier who is entitled to do "cool guy" things.

You've had a different experience? I'm honestly happy to hear that. Open your eyes around the BSC/ GSC and you'll see the guys I'm talking about. They are there and they are in larger quantities than is healthy. Look at your attachments on your next deployment, the mentality will exist there as well.

The hard, cold bottom line than many don't grasp is that they are there to perform their MOS and everything else is a bonus.


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## Brill (May 27, 2013)

bugkill said:


> First of all, our job is to support/sustain the *SF mission*, not to facilitate or enable the teams.


 
Uh, I know 350-1 and the FMs "say" my four-man team is capable of operating indepently of an ODA but 13 years of collective experience has changed that: we're attached to a team to do nothing more than ENABLE an ODA to conduct operations, either offensive or defensive.  I take my marching orders from the TM SGT directly.

Hell, you might was well try to (wrongly) argue that CAS and MEDEVAC support/sustain their missions too.


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## bugkill (May 27, 2013)

Freefalling said:


> I'm curious, what SF mission doesn't involve the ODA's/ ODB's? Better still, what rough percentage of SF missions don't involve the ODA's/ ODB's?
> 
> You wish to take issue with my post, that's fine, you're certainly entitled to your opinion. I never stated that the support side were second class citizens. One of the points I made was that "it isn't about you" which is a mentality I've seen in Support roles. To be fair, I wouldn't even call it the mentality of every Support soldier or even a majority of Support/ Enabler types, but I've seen it enough to know that the customer is usually wary of his support slice. I've seen the mentality infect entire detachments in BSC or GSC (usually this is a leadership issue). I visited Camp Montrond as recently as 2010 and witnessed it there; it was bad enough that the BSC CDR sent an email to his leadership reminding them of many of the points I made above. The bottom line is that there are plenty of Support types out there, though they may be in the minority, who think that being in an SF unit suddenly makes them a superior soldier who is entitled to do "cool guy" things.
> 
> ...


 

I feel you on what you are saying and your initial post got me a bit riled up despite the fact I knew what you were trying to say. If you got a support Soldier or any Soldier for that matter who is good in PT, does his job well, and is serving in a unit that has a long historical history or is a specialized unit, there is going to be some cockiness there, totally unavoidable. When I walked around with my maroon beret and that SF patch, I got sneers and second looks from leg Soldiers and for what? Simply for being where they wish they could be.

I can guarantee you that all you guys on here that has or is currently serving in a SF unit in a support MOS, are looked upon outside the unit as being a cocky little bastard that thinks he is SF and you get called this for simply wearing your uniform. The Army is filled with haters and they can't stand SOF support because we get to parachute out of airplanes, get issued high speed gear and weapons, get advanced combat training, and granted access to the "secret squirrel" life inside the compound. You only have to wear the patch and opinions are flying, and 99% of the time these people don't even know you, but they sure as hell judge you right on the spot.

I've had to deal with that non-sense for a number of years and when troops finally ask me how it was to be "attached" to SF, I quickly make them understand that I was "assigned" to the unit and that it was a blast serving there because you do far more than you would in a conventional unit in a support MOS. I rarely ever mention what the operators do because their experience is not mine and I only tell people that they are good Soldiers like everyone else, and they do their job to the best of their ability like everyone else. I was more excited for being part of the SF mission than anything else and that is what I talk about, my experience doing my job. I was not there to rub elbows with Green Berets, but I did anyway. Was not there to pretend to be a "cool guy", but got accused of doing just that anyway. SF was just another unit that I served in, but it had its advantages because I was able to do some things that others in my MOS (or even in the infantry) will NEVER do in their careers.

When I served in the 82nd it was the same damn thing, people talking about shit that don't matter. I want troops to be cocky and feel superior to others if they are indeed handling their business. If you are squared away and you are proud to be where you are at, don't be afraid to show it because people will see it anyway, but you have to be professional about it. You are not supposed to flaunt it and that is when you would take a Soldier to the side and explain to them how professionalism works. You don't want SOF support to compare themselves to the operators, but they have to recognize their own worth to the unit and that is what matters. Telling support that they are there to serve an fairly insignificant purpose or that teams can do it without them is simply ridiculous and I could care less what manual says it or what Green Beret actually thinks it. My job performance impacts PART of the overall mission. I can't do their job and they are without a doubt the very tip of the spear for a SF mission, but they need significant pieces to get the SF mission completed, not just rely on the ODA's. 

I'm just one of those dudes that don't like to hear all the "ladder" talk with respect to the unit. I know who I am and what my contribution meant to unit success, and that is all that matters. Not concerned with all the "cool guy" talk because if you are assigned to the unit, people will judge you anyway, so it really don't matter much. I respect all your opinions and I definitely see where many of you disagree with me and that's cool, not a problem at all. You guys have a great Memorial Day.


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## Brill (May 29, 2013)

bugkill said:


> The Army is filled with haters and they can't stand SOF support because we get to parachute out of airplanes, get issued high speed gear  and weapons, get advanced combat training,  and granted access to the "secret squirrel" life    inside the compound.


 
:wall:


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## moobob (Jun 1, 2013)

If I read the word operator in this thread one more time, I am going to vomit.


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 1, 2013)

bugkill said:


> The Army is filled with haters and they can't stand SOF support because we get to parachute out of airplanes, get issued high speed gear and weapons, get advanced combat training, and granted access to the "secret squirrel" life inside the compound, *.*


 
*without having been through any qualification or otherwise proving they're not a shitbag.*

Blind faith is stupid.  Why do you think Ranger Regiment has RASP for everyone?  At least Ranger support actually gets selected to serve in the regiment for proven performance and exceeding the standard...... instead of just begging DA because you wanted jump pay back.

Our support wears the same f'ing beret as everyone else in the unit, because they earned that shit.


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## moobob (Jun 1, 2013)

Here's the deal:

The core of the _*SPECIAL FORCES*_ Regiment is the ODA, period. Any non-tabbed personnel in Group exists to support the ODAs, period. You made a distinction between the ODA and the SF mission. I don't even know where to begin.

Also, most of the Group support guys on the memorial wall you referenced are direct support guys in highly specialized fields that don't have a lot in common with you as a log barn guy or whatever you did. That said, if every support guy disappeared one day, the ODAs/ODB would still more than likely find a way to get shit done. That's all I care to elaborate on that.



Ranger Psych said:


> *without having been through any qualification or otherwise proving they're not a shitbag.*
> ...
> Our support wears the same f'ing beret as everyone else in the unit, because they earned that shit.


 
We've discussed this numerous times on the board already. So long as USASFC/JFKSWCS don't really give a crap about who can be a red hat in their units, they are sometimes going to have substandard support guys. AND... SF guys are going to be suspicious of support guys they no personal experience with, or at least have a warm and fuzzy assessment of from someone else they trust.


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## DA SWO (Jun 1, 2013)

moobob said:


> Also, most of the Group support guys on the memorial wall you referenced are direct support guys in highly specialized fields that don't have a lot in common with you as a log barn guy or whatever you did. *That said, if every support guy disappeared one day, the ODAs/ODB would still more than likely find a way to get shit done.* That's all I care to elaborate on that.


 
They'd go back "to the old days, and do it themselves".

I was in a unit that had ZERO support personnel.  We became supply experts, commo/computer Gods, admin weinies; and covered any additional crap thrown at us.

Having support guys would have been great, but we functioned quite well without.

I think paperwork requirements would decrease 50% if we eliminated most of the support MOS/AFSC's etc.


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## Ranger Psych (Jun 1, 2013)

moobob said:


> We've discussed this numerous times on the board already. So long as USASFC/JFKSWCS don't really give a crap about who can be a red hat in their units, they are sometimes going to have substandard support guys. AND... SF guys are going to be suspicious of support guys they no personal experience with, or at least have a warm and fuzzy assessment of from someone else they trust.


 
As well they should be.

Regiment had paperwork, but generally the only paperwork that the line units saw was counseling forms, and hand reciepts... and very rarely when shit went sideways equipment wise, sworn statements or statements of charges.

You'd have to do your big army paperwork for promotions and the like, but even that was minimal. 

We had a whopping 6-9 "support" guys per company.

Training room and armory? Ranger Infantrymen with injuries and longer term profiles, or who were within a year of getting out with no intent of re-enlisting but a high level of "I'm working till I'm out" motivation.

Supply was done by supply, and commo was done by commo. Medics, 1 per platoon with tack-on's from HHC depending on mission planning or support requirements for ranges. FO's, one per platoon.  Everyone directly contributed to combat missions. Our supply guy would do his loggie work getting requests sent back for more shit we needed inbetween patrols with the CO/1SG. The commo guys would be working radios and also rolling with the CO/1SG on missions unless the RTO was competent and SGT/SSG Commoman knew that Ranger Psych (as an example) would make sure everyone could talk with no disruption. NBC dude would make sure that shit was straight and would be giving classes to the smarter and pushed forward for classes Rangers about the additional equipment we had for known/likely NBC operations to be able to provide detection and decon.

HHC had an obviously higher concentration of dedicated support MOS people, 6-10 medics/medic team augmentees/PA/Surgeon/PT, S1 shop of paperwork Rangers who still did EIB, roadmarches, jumps, the whole 9. Intel had a couple guys who were rarely seen but always got us the best info possible. S3 was all staff captains or senior NCO's, S4 had 1-2 dedicated MOS ammunition handler people plus mid level NCO's from each company that provided support for that company flexing as required. The motor pool had 3-6 mechanics and other duty positions, half of which usually ended up pushing forward with us. Sometimes on patrols, but we had less than 5% downtime on our entire motor pool because they worked incessantly to make sure rigs were functional, Rangerproof, and if they did succumb to Mechanical Rangeritis, those mechanics would work late and bust ass to get it up both stateside and overseas. Supply had a couple more NCO's and a Warrant to keep the books straight and do the big supply shit... and the cooks made sure we had our chow squared away as well as contributing directly to combat support operations such as Casevac missions because we would get them all EMT qualified, they'd join in sometimes as an attachment to rifle squads and teams for training rotations to get squared away, etc.

Never mind the fact that as a general rule, even as a softskill, you'd be going to Ranger school to get to be an NCO.

I don't know many support guys outside of Regiment who are bad ass enough to start off Commo, get sniper qualified, get their Ranger tab, become an Infantry team leader and be fantastic at it, go on to be a Sniper and president's 100, then move on to be a fucking D-boy... guess what, my team leader at one point was a perfect example of how bad ass support guys in Regiment are.... SFC Van Aalst. RIP, but he was a stellar infantry team leader and I will admit, for about 30 seconds when I learned he was going to be coming to replace my ETS'ing TL, my internal conversation was "great, now I'll have someone who don't know what they're doing in charge of me on live fires"

Then we went out and he taught me ways to do about 200 of my Ranger tasks and duties more quickly, accurately, efficiently, with repeatable results within the first week of being my TL.

Holey shit was I wrong. He taught me a ton of stuff that I applied across the entire spectrum of conducting operations both in garrison and in the field, throughout my military career.

Badasses abound within Ranger Regiment, and not all of them wear infantry blue.  Can that be said for other SOF that have no selection process?  I think the fact that there's an argument about it going on here proves my point rather well.

160th has a selection for their guys... never hear about issues with their support guys getting cool-guy-itis... because they ARE cool guys and earned their fucking stripes.

SF needs to figure that out, and unfortunately due to the multitude of SF oriented classification varying operations, big army can get away with "owning" the support MOS postings..... until the SF Regiment makes a push to finally takes full ownership of the full spectrum of duty positions that conduct and support the missions they are tasked with.

One idea I had, albeit never having been and rarely even working with SF in general, is that they could co-task their SFAS course cadre (they're already tasked with conducting selections so it wouldn't be extremely hard to add into the repertoire) with holding SFSS.  Throwing them at some parts of SFAS with a reduced requirements scoresheet so there's some suck, some self-select "fuck this" quits, some that don't end up cutting the mustard, and a couple stateside woods operations either supporting actual teams doing trainups or in Robin Sage, doing what they would be doing overseas, with who would normally be doing the job supervising as well as grading on their performance...

This would provide a controlled situation, graded, taste of the suck and the reality of the mission they perform within the larger scope, so the support guys realize that this is serious shit and they need to be able to pull their weight at their job because they are supporting guys that have small to no margins for failure.

No idea if it would be feasible since I ain't SF and never will be, but it sounds like it'd be a completely better process than currently utilized.


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## moobob (Jun 2, 2013)

SF teams are cautious around SF soldiers they don't have experience with, much less any support guys that have never been through any type of formal selection.

The current needs of the army setup screws everyone over, not just the teams. I've seen situations where things are completely peachy, and I've also seen various combinations of the following: You can have multiple Ranger tabbed, squared away SOT-As team sergeants in an SF battalion who are prized assets by ODBs and ODAs. These guys, every year, can get a new MI Captain assigned over them that has zero SOF experience. You can also have a new SFC with zero SOF experience magically show up and outrank everyone else. There is nowhere to hide the guy for a couple years where he can't do any damage and get him experience.

So, you end up with organizations that find ways to pool all their shitbags in one battalion, or on one team within a battalion. Shitbags who would have never made it past a records check and interview. The other horrible side effect is that some of those "shitbags" would be good guys in a conventional unit, but since noone bothers to screen anyone, they slip through and cause problems for others, as well as themselves.

There are a ton of ways to skin the cat, but I think the single best solution is a centralized SF signals intelligence unit. There were advantages to when all the SOT-As were at the Group level (so far as scheduling training and stuff like that). If it were it's own unit, it could run it's own selection.


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## Polar Bear (Jun 2, 2013)

bugkill said:


> I know this is an old thread, but I feel the need to address what Freefalling (FF) ............. only thing that matters.


 
You have 14 days to get vetted or you are banned. Do not PM me


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## Brill (Jun 2, 2013)

"Guy on a buffaloooooooooooooooo."


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## amlove21 (Jun 2, 2013)

bugkill , you have enjoyed a modicum of professionalism until now that I would not have granted you. 

You heard Polar Bear. The other Moderators and Admins are supremely aware of your existence. Get vetted.

I will not tolerate your brand of bullshit. Thanks for serving, but I dislike you already. 

I would rather I say this now to you in the open, as opposed to in a back room where you can't see it.


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## surgicalcric (Jun 3, 2013)

moobob said:


> If I read the word operator in this thread one more time, I am going to vomit.



What's an operator?  It sounds exciting...  Sure wish I had tried to be one when I was...well when I was.

Buzzkill:  good thing you and I didn't meet when I was on a team.  You would have figured out that without us there isn't a need for your logistical wizardry (as if any good 18c can't do your job with his hands in the cookie jar).  We don't need you, you are a luxury.  SOT-As are a whole different story...  Watch how you speak - this is our house, not yours.  Unlike getting into SF SUPPORT, you must earn your way...

And like my brother Love said, I am saying this in the open instead of complaining about your ignorance, cockiness (part of the reason FF started this thread) and your generally poor SA.


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## Teufel (Jun 3, 2013)

I resisted saying anything so far but I'm surprised how far this has gone.  Shadowspear is one of the most permissive SOF forums on the internet.   Actually I think it's safe to say it is the most permissive.  Everyone of every walk of life is accepted here to include aspiring SOF candidates, conventional military veterans, family members, military supporters, SOF support and SOF warriors.  This is not the case in most SOF forums.  I avoid most internet forums because of the arrogance, dick measuring and elitist attitude I have seen elsewhere.  I haven't seen that here.  Everyone here appreciates all the hard work that SOF support folks have done and continue to do on a daily basis.   However, please don't forget that this is and has always been a Special Operations Forum.  This isn't Shadowsupportspear.  I understand where you are coming from and I understand your frustrations. This may not be the forum to air those grievances because you will not find many sympathetic ears and will only continue to alienate members.


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## pardus (Jun 3, 2013)

Polar Bear said:


> You have 14 days to get vetted or you are banned. Do not PM me


 
bugkill I also strongly suggest not posting (or PM'ing anyone) until you do so.

Don't think getting vetted will grant you carte blanche to act like a prick either. You're off to a rough start, but that is not a game stopper here.
As has been said previously in this thread, your situational awareness is lacking. Do some looking around this site, have a look at how we conduct ourselves, what we expect. This our community and we expect you to conform or leave. Simple.


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## x SF med (Jun 3, 2013)

surgicalcric said:


> What's an operator? It sounds exciting... Sure wish I had tried to be one when I was...well when I was.
> 
> Buzzkill: good thing you and I didn't meet when I was on a team. You would have figured out that without us there isn't a need for your logistical wizardry (as if any good 18c can't do your job with his hands in the cookie jar). We don't need you, you are a luxury. SOT-As are a whole different story... Watch how you speak - this is our house, not yours. Unlike getting into SF SUPPORT, you must earn your way...
> 
> And like my brother Love said, I am saying this in the open instead of complaining about your ignorance, cockiness (part of the reason FF started this thread) and your generally poor SA.


 
Bugbait....

To reiterate what my brother Crip put out... When I was on a team, I was also tasked with multiple things... 18D, 18B.... Co NBC NCO, Co Medic, Asst A-2, Asst S-3, Asst S-4, S-1, and Acting XO (yes as an NCO) - many concurrently... and at times holding those positions on a Team and in the Co depending on DTG... it would have been nice to have had some 'trained' help... but we muddled through... SOT-A's were a different story... Do your job, do it well, do what SGM asks of you beyond that, and do it well... but in country as an ODA... you do it all yourselves, so get used to it... If you want to play on an ODA, go to Selection and pass the Q course... then you might bring an additional skill to help make things smoother... but you may find it's already being done efficiently.

I put this in the open too to get it out there.... and show you how many people are looking without responding until you really step on it... like you did. and to let you know how clueless you really are.

ETA - EVERY Soldier, Sailor, Airman, Coastie or Marine  needs to do their job to the best of their ability for the big machine to work well...  there is a reason that the requirements to even get selected to get looked at for selection, then be invited to attempt the selection for the Qualification schools for SOF units is so different from the 'regular' forces...  you are looking at the top .05% of the 1% that are eligible to join the military services....  that's the top .0005% of the population - yeah that's pretty friggin special if you ask me.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 3, 2013)

Bugkill, look, I'm glad you are proud to be a support guy.  I wish more people were like you in that regard; we just banned a former support guy for over-inflating his creds.  He wasn't content with what he really was, you don't have that problem.  

The problem you do have is either an extreme case of naivety or willful disbelief of basic facts (I'm not sure yet which one it is) combined with a bewildering lack of situational awareness.  I will say it again, if you are a support guy in an SF unit, you ARE a second-class citizen, as far as the organization is concerned.  No one cares about your assessment, selection, training, promotion or retention.  They are quite content to take whatever Big Army sends them, because at the end of the day, you don't matter to them.  There is almost zero investment in enabler functions in Group, and those support-type functions that are really useful to the SF mission typically, over time, become an additional duty for someone on the Team.  

I'm not saying this to belittle you or anyone else.  I think you and most of the people on this site know that I was an enabler and not 18-series.  But facts are facts.  It doesn't mean we have to like them, or we shouldn't try to get them changed.  It should change; SF is going to get left behind by all of the other SOF units who are willing to invest in enabler functions, particularly intel, comms, transportation and logistics.  But change is hard, and it needs to start with the people that Group gets in as enablers.  I wrote a major article about it in 2004 and a master's thesis on it in 2007.  A couple of years back, I sent an executive summary outlining the specifics of a centralized enabler assessment, selection, and training program to both the commander of USASFC and the J2 of SOCOM.  And you know what?  No.One.Cares.  At least not in Special Forces command.  Other units have a completely different dynamic and enablers can be and are accepted as peers- but never equals.  And that's OK; there is no way to equate what I do behind a desk, important as it is, to the men and women (yes, women) out there doing the actual mission in whatever unit to which I'm assigned at the time.  I'm good with that; I'm proud of what I did and think it's important but I hold no illusions.  And anyone who is or is thinking about going to support an SF Group should go in with their eyes wide open to it.  

So that's probably going to be it for me on this topic, and it's definitely going to be it for you, at least until we establish your bona fides.  If you choose to get vetted, please also explain the short period of time you spent at Group.  When I was in Group, a normal tour for a support type was three years.   There's usually a story there if a guy came out earlier than that and didn't move on to something high speed.  Sometimes it's a good story (got picked up for a different SOF unit, came out on the list for drill sergeant, etc.) but most of the time it was a "you suck" story.  I'm willing to give the benefit of the doubt if you care to explain it.  No need to make it public, just put in the comments when you do your vetting.


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## DA SWO (Jun 3, 2013)

Profile says last seen was 27 May.

Wonder if he's a Troll who starts shit and runs?


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## policemedic (Jun 3, 2013)

That would be my guess, but I would have chosen a word our new padre would definitely not approve of.


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## Muppet (Jun 5, 2013)

policemedic said:


> That would be my guess, but I would have chosen a word our new padre would definitely not approve of.


 
Like fucking retard? Or something similar?

F.M.


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## x SF med (Jun 5, 2013)

SOWT said:


> Profile says last seen was 27 May.
> 
> Wonder if he's a Troll a  troll who starts shit and runs?


 
corrected...  Troll does not equal troll :youllpay:


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## policemedic (Jun 5, 2013)

Firemedic said:


> Like fucking retard? Or something similar?
> 
> F.M.



Actually, I was thinking of a particular portion of the female anatomy.


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## DA SWO (Jun 5, 2013)

policemedic said:


> Actually, I was thinking of a particular portion of the female anatomy.


 
He's a boob?


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## Marauder06 (Jun 5, 2013)

OK, it's been at least a week since buzzkill resurrected this thread, and he hasn't been back since.  This thread is sliding into irrelevance, if no one has anything else applicable to add, we should probably just let it die out.  Thanks.


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## DA SWO (Jun 5, 2013)

I was correct, he was a troll out trolling.  

Sorry, couldn't resist.

Back in my corner.


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## Muppet (Jun 5, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> OK, it's been at least a week since buzzkill resurrected this thread, and he hasn't been back since. This thread is sliding into irrelevance, if no one has anything else applicable to add, we should probably just let it die out. Thanks.


 
But I don't wanna stop dad!

F.M.


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## Teufel (Jun 5, 2013)

It's sad that such a thoughtful, meaningful and very relevant post like this one has been derailed this way.  Such an ignorant argument that completely missed Free's point and reinforced the stereotype he was trying to prevent with his lessons learned.  Complete buzzkill.


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## TheSiatonist (Jun 6, 2013)

SOWT said:


> Profile says last seen was 27 May.
> 
> Wonder if he's a Troll who starts shit and runs?


Now it says May 28.

Dude has 1.5k posts on MPNet and has a YouTube channel so, yeah, I agree -- he was probably "testing the waters" to see what all you SOF type's reactions would be over here.


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## Poetic_Mind (Jun 6, 2013)

I assume that is him.

He certainly runs. Kind of like the pistol segment. Even the "pros" have their bad moments. 

Sorry for bumping this up. But he is likely more than just A troll, but a poser as well. 

PM


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## RackMaster (Jun 6, 2013)

All the real "pros" shoot at the dump.   Not saying it's a bad thing, btdt...

I also enjoyed imagining him taking rounds for the pistol...  LOL


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## Polar Bear (Jun 6, 2013)

Polar Bear said:


> You have 14 days to get vetted or you are banned. Do not PM me


10 days left


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## pardus (Jun 7, 2013)

Tick Tock...


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## 0699 (Jun 7, 2013)

pardus said:


> Tick Tock...


 
Okay Ke$ha...


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## Brill (Jun 7, 2013)

Poetic_Mind said:


> Mod Edit:  remove the video links when quoting posts.
> 
> I assume that is him.
> 
> ...


 
Definitely "advanced combat training". :-"


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## DA SWO (Jun 9, 2013)

Poetic_Mind said:


> I assume that is him.
> 
> He certainly runs. Kind of like the pistol segment. Even the "pros" have their bad moments.
> 
> ...



Most Pro's would re-shoot the segment, and maybe add checking the pistol into the segment.


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## Kraut783 (Jun 9, 2013)

Looks like gangbangers at the range...


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## bugkill (Jul 16, 2013)

I have been pretty busy of late, but I have returned. I see that a old video that I posted trying out left hand shooting has been found, so let me enlighten some of you about it. I was TESTING using my left given that I'm left eye dominate. I have been a right hand shooter for all my life, so I was testing how it would feel going lefty. I see the lovely criticism about me not re-shooting the segment or whatever, but why would I re-shoot a video where I'm only testing out left hand shooting (Did any of you not catch the "Man, I fucked that up" at the end)? It is not an instructional video nor was it posted to show how much of a bad ass I am, just a fun time at the range and I was testing out my camera. All the shit about being a "pro" and what not means very little because I know what training I have had and the things I have done, so whatever. The pistol not having a round chambered was the way I was running the gun that day, but I simply forgot since I usually would have had one round chambered, but since I was testing out the left hand shooting, I wanted to be on the safe side, so why be ashamed of that? Not a big deal at all and I'm glad you guys liked it. ;)

As far as the "poser" comments are concerned, I have already been verified by this site and that is all that matters. I got stuff to back up everything I have said and the awards and badges to go with it. Very proud of my service, so it don't matter what any of you think. You can do all the searching you want about me by using "bugkill" in Google, but the bottom line is that you will NEVER prove me to be a poser because I'M NOT ONE and DON'T EVER HAVE TO BE since I have no desire to be something that I'm not and I don't hold ANY other Soldier, Marine, Airman, or Sailor above myself (unless you are one of my troops). My career is mine and mine alone, and I'm 100% satisfied with it, not sure about some of you on here though. 

The gang banger comment by Kraut783 speaks to his idiocy because the way one dresses (I'm assuming that he was talking about my friend who happens to be a Navy veteran) does not make you a gang banger, it is your actions and the way you live your life that does. Then again, I'm pretty much wasting my time trying to educate someone who would blindly throw that word around since the video did not feature a drive by or any conversation whatsoever about gang banging, so it is obviously a personal problem that Kraut has to fix himself, so good luck to him on that. 

As far as being considered a "prick" for taking pride in my work while in SF, I won't back down from that because I disrespected no one on this site. Everything I said was how I viewed my service and my response was to this ridiculous idea that support troops are "second class" citizens in the unit. I made the statements that I wanted to make on this issue and I left it at that, no need to repeat it because it is what it is. You guys have your opinions and I have mine, no harm in any of that. I was gone for a while because I was living life and I'm sure many of you can relate to that, so all the talk about banning me or that I was troll was totally uncalled for. This is a forum and I understand that there are times when people show up on certain ones to make trouble, but I can assure you that I'm not one of them and what I wrote proves that. It's all good though because I have no feelings about anything or anyone on this site, so why would I fuck with any of you? 

Y'all be easy.


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## amlove21 (Jul 17, 2013)

bugkill said:


> It's all good though because I have no feelings about anything or anyone on this site, so why would I fuck with any of you?




If you think for one second you get to stomp in here, rail on about who knows what, cathartically spew off your nonsense as if you're saying it in the mirror, pumping yourself up for a big high school football game, and cap it off with what I quoted above, you're insane. 

You obviously do care what people think, you care how you're perceived, and the comments here hit a note with you. If this wasn't true, you wouldn't have taken so much time out of your busy schedule of life living (we get it; you said it 4 times) to rebut and clear whatever name it is you think you have. 

I don't care who you used to be, what you've done, or what your opinion is. You appear to be a clown, and you are as good as your last game. By my count, your last game involved being a douche here on the board. Your good credit from any past deeds has been spent. 

I am highly recommending to the admins that you are banned from the site. Have a great day. 

Thread locked.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 17, 2013)

I had to go back through all of your old posts to refresh my memory, but yeah I remember you.  I didn't think you were going to last long here.  

Couple of points before you go- first of all, you weren't banned; if you had been banned you wouldn't have been able to make yet another ridiculous post on this thread, or to complain to Polar Bear via private message that you had been banned.  Second, in that same message you sent to PB you also said you had been verified here on the site.  You have NOT been verified; no one here vouched for you or said your claims were validated, that's why the little tag under name said "unverified."  We gave you a chance to get vetted, but you chose instead to complain to an admin and make yet another embarrassing post here.

You have a poor understanding of how things work both on sites like ours and in SF units, and from your posts here and videos elsewhere, you represent the support side of SOF very badly.  I can see why you're not longer in a SOF unit.  Best of luck to you in your interaction with other SOF-themed web sites.




Oh yeah one more thing, in case you were wondering, NOW you're banned.


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