# Winter Driving and how not to do it



## LibraryLady (Dec 1, 2015)

Montana has the highest traffic fatality stats in the nation. Fatality Facts

Here is an example of some stuff the MHP is putting out to combat these stats.

LL


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 1, 2015)

LibraryLady said:


> Montana has the highest traffic fatality stats in the nation. Fatality Facts
> 
> Here is an example of some stuff the MHP is putting out to combat these stats.
> 
> LL



Impressive dash camera video. You really have no idea how slippery things are, until you try to stop. What I really get pissed about are the folks in 4X4's moving along as if they are immune from mishap because of their 4X4 capability:wall:. You usually see them off the road a few miles ahead.


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## DA SWO (Dec 1, 2015)

LibraryLady said:


> Montana has the highest traffic fatality stats in the nation. Fatality Facts
> 
> Here is an example of some stuff the MHP is putting out to combat these stats.
> 
> LL


How could people not see the lady in the median?


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## medicchick (Dec 1, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> How could people not see the lady in the median?


Easy, big accident in front of you and you're paying attention to that and making sure you don't become part of it.  It happens, don't judge unless you've been there.  If you are in an accident and can't stay in your vehicle due to safety, get your ass on the other side of the guardrail (if there's one), well away from the road.  We carry safety vests in our rigs and will throw them on in case of an accident, just to be seen.  RP and I have driven most of the main highways going to Michigan from Alaska and Nevada, mostly in winter.  We've seen some stupid stuff, like the person who didn't want to pay attention to Wyoming's 35mph on I-80.  They ended up in the ditch, in whiteout conditions (highway closed 10 minutes behind us).  I'm glad everyone survived and hopefully people learn from watching this.  I appreciate them including the audio.


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## Ranger Psych (Dec 1, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> How could people not see the lady in the median?



Because unconscious, she looked like road debris from the crash, not a person.  The first place you check is vehicles, especially if you have a personnel count prior to the additional accident. You start looking elsewhere AFTER you check the vehicles, as vehicles have multiple restraint systems that give a large bias (if used) towards retaining people in the vehicle. Then you start checking areas elsewhere. The first place you start looking for ejections is in the direction of travel/impact then spread out from there if you don't find them.

Between just living in AK and also having been a firefighter there, I've seen some scary winter shit happen. Even had some scary shit happen to us, but mitigated it's effects to simply being a 360 on the roadway already doing 30 in a 65 because of the weather. Also had the pleasure of going "Yay, I get to watch someone die tonight" when a lane was blocked due to a center median flatbed towtruck recovery, I saw it and moved to the right and slowed down, Cherokee driver decided to blow past all of us slowed down and in the right lane at 10 over the speed limit in an ice storm.... locked em up, slid sideways, and hit the rear end of the flatbed broadside with the drivers side of the jeep. Driver survived by pure luck. Her seat headrest and the B/C/D pillars were all severed at the window line. Police that arrived on-scene thought I was the tow truck driver because I had reflective gear on... no, I'm just not a fucking idiot and bought my 3-in-1 5.11 jacket specifically because it was a nice 2 piece jacket that came with a pretty baller reflective vest that I also used for work.

Between our training and always-in-the-rig med equipment, we always stop at traffic scenes given an apparent need for help and the ability to do so safely... but we also have solely 4x vehicles and will actually put our rig off road just so we're in less of a hazard zone... and also tend to add additional warning/scene lighting onto the vehicles as well for the utility and visibility boost.

Stupid drivers in the winter is also why I always ran the Onspot chains on any apparatus I was driving in the winter both code and non-code, period, unless it was already fully chained up. Any help I could get for braking due to people not realizing that a 65,000 lb Big Red Truck with blinky lights on should be yielded to, even when already driving in total paranoia mode, was appreciated.  The brilliance of the public at large is astounding when you're in a position to observe it...


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## x SF med (Dec 1, 2015)

I've been asked why we have a snow shovel and e-tools and traction sand (320lb) in the back of the truck as well as the chains.  The car has the shovel and the chains too...

Uncle Sam made me take Winter Driving 2x a year for my time in... and we had to practice it in Ambulances ...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Dec 2, 2015)

16" 2x4's and ratchet strap's work pretty good when stuck in wet snow (the slushy stuff).


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## LibraryLady (Dec 2, 2015)

What's with the hate @pardus?  You hatin' cuz I'm in MT and you're not?  :-"

LL


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## BuckysBadger24 (Dec 2, 2015)

I tend to just avoid the interstate for a month after first snowfall until everyone remembers where we live.  With three 50 plus car pile up's on I-94 and I-43 in the last 2 years, I'd rather take my chances on city roads.  After that time everyone generally settles and even the "but it's 4 wheel drive!?!?" geniuses begin driving properly.  It never fails to amaze how stupid people can be, and it's even more amazing that so few lose their lives in these incidents.


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## Blizzard (Dec 2, 2015)

What took so long for them to close that highway? Up to 12 min after the initial semi impact there was still traffic driving through the scene.


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## x SF med (Dec 2, 2015)

BuckysBadger24 said:


> and even the "but it's 4 wheel drive!?!?" geniuses begin driving properly.



4 wheel drive gets you started and going....  it does not help you stop.  Stopping requires friction, ice has very little friction, people forget this little piece of Science.

So, the question to most of these people is............ do you even Science?

Common sense...  not so common any more.


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## medicchick (Dec 2, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> What took so long for them to close that highway? Up to 12 min after the initial semi impact there was still traffic driving through the scene.



In weather like that, manpower.  There probably were accidents all over and if it started as a simple VID then it wasn't needed.  Police need to drive carefully in that stuff too, running code only gets you there so fast in snow/ice/uky weather.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 2, 2015)

DA SWO said:


> How could people not see the lady in the median?



After some years on the IG team, it was common to see the tunnel vision that develops, partucularly in MARES. We would place casualties some distance away from the main event, and 80% of the time, we would have to point out the distant casualty. When I lived in Germany, I was about 12 miles from the base on Route 327. It was the main travel road in the area. When GI's accidents happened on that road, I always got a call from the ER to respond if I could. One night, I guess it was around 2300; five GI's in a car hit a truck. Only one person had a belt on and survived the mishap. All the others were scattered along the wooded area near the crash site. we spent over an hour looking for the fifth casualty, and we found him in a tree, after he had been ejected through the rear window of the vehicle. If it had not been for the belted passenger telling us that there was another person to look for, I doubt he whold have been found until the next morning.


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## Blizzard (Dec 2, 2015)

medicchick said:


> In weather like that, manpower.  There probably were accidents all over and if it started as a simple VID then it wasn't needed.  Police need to drive carefully in that stuff too, running code only gets you there so fast in snow/ice/uky weather.


I understand but there were already at least a couple Troopers already on scene.  Allowing traffic to pass through only made a dangerous situation even more dangerous; size up the scene, ensure "scene safe".  Anyway, glad to see no one was killed.  Scary stuff.


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## DA SWO (Dec 2, 2015)

LibraryLady said:


> What's with the hate @pardus?  You hatin' cuz I'm in MT and you're not?  :-"
> 
> LL


You have sheep for neighbors, he doesn't.


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## x SF med (Dec 2, 2015)

I have to be thankful that because of the immediate and dire sanctions that would befall military members in the 80's, should one NOT wear the webbing restraint devices in an auto,  that putting on a seatbelt has become habit.  I'm actually uncomfortable driving or riding without one now.


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## TLDR20 (Dec 2, 2015)

x SF med said:


> I have to be thankful that because of the immediate and dire sanctions that would befall military members in the 80's, should one NOT wear the webbing restraint devices in an auto,  that putting on a seatbelt has become habit.  I'm actually uncomfortable driving or riding without one now.



Every once in a while I get in an argument with some idiot who says "I've seen people killed by seat belts" or some such nonsense. I always say, have you seen the people without a restraint? Same as the guys who don't wear a helmet on a motorcycle.


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## Red Flag 1 (Dec 2, 2015)

TLDR20 said:


> Every once in a while I get in an argument with some idiot who says "I've seen people killed by seat belts" or some such nonsense. I always say, have you seen the people without a restraint? Same as the guys who don't wear a helmet on a motorcycle.



When I was a kid, there were stories about drivers who,'Were thrown clear of the accident, and spared any injuries. I've yet to meet anyone like that. They usually get bashed through the windshield and windup with massive head trauma, and lacerations that bleed like hell., The young man in Germany who went throught rear window and into a tree. Cause of death was severe brains injury. I will never understand why people do not use seatbelts:wall:. Often times people who are ejected from their vehicle are usually hit, or rolled over by said vehicle, or one passing by in the other lane.


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## Ranger Psych (Dec 2, 2015)

Blizzard said:


> What took so long for them to close that highway? Up to 12 min after the initial semi impact there was still traffic driving through the scene.



You do realize that in weather like that, especially with a simple VID as the start, closing the highway would only cause more accidents.

Case in point, trucking along happy as a bear in a beaver pond on the way through Wyoming. Clear cold day, dry pavement. Come up over a hill... sheet ice with the left lane blocked with traffic... ok, we take the right and start slowing down..... on glaze ice.... come around the curve, there's a semi versus car with multiple responders on scene

LUCKILY I had things working for us on two counts. A: I was fully willing and able to throw it in the ditch straight on and bury the rig in the dirt. B: I had studded tires on the truck with no fucks given for local laws about them, given a drive in winter... We got stopped and merged but the entire braking duration was completely human controlled threshold, as ABS doesn't do shit on ice other than put you in a ditch.

There were 2 semis who were on either side of the road that I passed, who took the ditch to spare lives. One was a fedex truck that had turned into a yard sale trailerwise, but the cab was intact and undamaged and he was out sitting and having a smoke.


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