# What Percentage of GWOT Veterans Served in "Combat?"



## Marauder06 (May 21, 2016)

Doing some research on the percentage of GWOT/OCO vets who served in "combat" (defined here as engaged in kinetic action against/from enemy forces).  Looking for sources if anyone has some handy.


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## Il Duce (May 21, 2016)

CAB and CIB award statistics are probably your best bet for empirical data.


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## Marauder06 (May 21, 2016)

That's useful for Army stats, but I'm also interested in the total of all services.


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## DA SWO (May 21, 2016)

Marauder06 said:


> That's useful for Army stats, but I'm also interested in the total of all services.


The number of AF Combat Action Medals awarded.


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## SpongeBob*24 (May 21, 2016)

Humble people won't talk, and those that never did anything will tell amazing stories.

Good luck solving this riddle....


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## compforce (May 21, 2016)

Il Duce said:


> CAB and CIB award statistics are probably your best bet for empirical data.



These will be deceiving.  Quite a few fobbits put themselves in for CAB/CIB and received them for indirect fire after "returning fire", meaning firing a magazine randomly in the direction the round came from.  I know of three that were awarded that way while I was there and an HQ that had every officer in for one due to a single rocket strike in the compound with no kinetic engagement.


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## Il Duce (May 21, 2016)

I don't disagree but if you're looking for data you're going to have to go with some sort of metric.  The services already have some level of checks on decorations themselves.  You'll get some inflation in the aggregate - but you'll also have folks that were deserving and were never awarded.  Short of interviewing every veteran with a lie detector I don't think you're going to do much better.


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## Florida173 (May 22, 2016)

Wonder how many people have earned both a CIB and CAB.


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## racing_kitty (May 22, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Wonder how many people have earned both a CIB and CAB.



Not too many, and I'd venture to say "none at all."  The CAB was invented so that engineers, cav scouts, and various other fobbits could get a bit of bling saying "I got shot at, just like the infantry."  I'm not sure how many 11-series guys would actually reclass to a noninfantry MOS after having a combat tour or two.  They'd either stay infantry or get out.  In the event that they do reclass to a non-infantry MOS, and he's got a CIB, the likelihood that he'd opt to have a CAB is pretty small.  That's like leaving your supermodel wife at the house so you can take your 300lb swamp donkey mistress out on a date.  The CAB is definitely the lesser of the two medals.


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## Brill (May 22, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Wonder how many people have earned both a CIB and CAB.



Out of the 12 SOT-As in 2/20th, there were only 3 of us who just had CABs and the rest had CIBs (reclass'd).

Fully agree with @compforce that many folks were awarded CABs for IDF on the FOB vice being in direct combat.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 22, 2016)

Before the CAB came out, the CIB was done as a blanket award. Although in those days most everyone did experience the two way range several times throughout a deployment. There were several people who were awarded the CIB who didn't not rate one. 

As for the stats, I truly doubt there is anyway with consistency and accuracy outside of unit after action reports, unit history and some kind of a sworn statement database for enemy contact.

Maybe contact the dudes who compile the lessons learned stuff.


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## Florida173 (May 22, 2016)

racing_kitty said:


> Not too many, and I'd venture to say "none at all."  The CAB was invented so that engineers, cav scouts, and various other fobbits could get a bit of bling saying "I got shot at, just like the infantry."  I'm not sure how many 11-series guys would actually reclass to a noninfantry MOS after having a combat tour or two.  They'd either stay infantry or get out.  In the event that they do reclass to a non-infantry MOS, and he's got a CIB, the likelihood that he'd opt to have a CAB is pretty small.  That's like leaving your supermodel wife at the house so you can take your 300lb swamp donkey mistress out on a date.  The CAB is definitely the lesser of the two medals.



There are actually a lot of guys that reclass from infantry. After the three deployments I did as infantry, I transitioned to the guard to a soft skill for my next two deployments. 

I'd agree with you that the CAB is the lesser award and will never wear mine, but it's really not in regards to 670-1. I'd honestly rather wear my EIB but that is the lesser award. 

As others have said there were plenty of people that got their CIB for IDF. CAB was actually harder for the longest time because they were actually following the regs on when to award it.


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## Kraut783 (May 22, 2016)

racing_kitty said:


> Not too many, and I'd venture to say "none at all."  The CAB was invented so that engineers, cav scouts, and various other fobbits could get a bit of bling saying "I got shot at, just like the infantry."  I'm not sure how many 11-series guys would actually reclass to a noninfantry MOS after having a combat tour or two.  They'd either stay infantry or get out.  In the event that they do reclass to a non-infantry MOS, and he's got a CIB, the likelihood that he'd opt to have a CAB is pretty small.  That's like leaving your supermodel wife at the house so you can take your 300lb swamp donkey mistress out on a date.  The CAB is definitely the lesser of the two medals.



You would be surprised....we had three in my reserve unit.  All were DS vets and received their CIB's, they later left the military, then came back into the reserves and had reclassed  prior to 9/11...off to OEF and OIF and they received their CAB.  Of course they never wore it, but were awarded it.


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## Florida173 (May 22, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> As for the stats, I truly doubt there is anyway with consistency and accuracy outside of unit after action reports, unit history and some kind of a sworn statement database for enemy contact.



If you try to get a badge after the fact, you need some of that stuff


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 22, 2016)

racing_kitty said:


> Not too many, and I'd venture to say "none at all."  The CAB was invented so that engineers, cav scouts, and various other fobbits could get a bit of bling saying "I got shot at, just like the infantry."  I'm not sure how many 11-series guys would actually reclass to a noninfantry MOS after having a combat tour or two.  They'd either stay infantry or get out.  In the event that they do reclass to a non-infantry MOS, and he's got a CIB, the likelihood that he'd opt to have a CAB is pretty small.  That's like leaving your supermodel wife at the house so you can take your 300lb swamp donkey mistress out on a date.  The CAB is definitely the lesser of the two medals.



The swamp donkey bit had me rolling! 

I know quite of few guys who left the Infantry for MI, SF, SOF, WOC Aviation, etc. It's actually pretty common as the knees and back only go so long. Alot of guys (including myself) stopped wearing our CIB's.


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## Ooh-Rah (May 22, 2016)

This thread reminds me of one of my favorite episodes of M*A*S*H. 

_In the Season 5 episode "Ping Pong", Lt. Colonel Harold Beckett, an old friend of Potter's, is given command of his own combat unit- needing five more days on the line to get his Combat Infantryman Badge and an assured promotion to full Colonel. But when he and many of his men are wounded, one soldier reveals that it was Beckett's incompetence that got them in trouble; after suffering significant casualties the unit was ordered to withdraw and Beckett froze. But when Potter confronts Beckett about what happened he blamed it on Intelligence failure. Potter orders him sent back down saying* "I don't give a damn about your promotion or your lousy C.I.B.; all I care about are those kids[...] and if one gets hurt the price is too high."*_


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 22, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> This thread reminds me of one of my favorite episodes of M*A*S*H.
> 
> _In the Season 5 episode "Ping Pong", Lt. Colonel Harold Beckett, an old friend of Potter's, is given command of his own combat unit- needing five more days on the line to get his Combat Infantryman Badge and an assured promotion to full Colonel. But when he and many of his men are wounded, one soldier reveals that it was Beckett's incompetence that got them in trouble; after suffering significant casualties the unit was ordered to withdraw and Beckett froze. But when Potter confronts Beckett about what happened he blamed it on Intelligence failure. Potter orders him sent back down saying* "I don't give a damn about your promotion or your lousy C.I.B.; all I care about are those kids[...] and if one gets hurt the price is too high."*_



Combat Infantryman Badge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Performing duties while personally present and under fire while serving in an assigned infantry, ranger or Special Forces capacity, in a unit of brigade, regimental, or smaller size, engaged in active ground combat, to close with and destroy the enemy with direct fires.

Combat Action Badge - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Active engagement or being engaged by the enemy after September 18, 2001


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## BloodStripe (May 22, 2016)

Il Duce said:


> CAB and CIB award statistics are probably your best bet for empirical data.



How many Soldiers earned a bull shit CIB or CAB? I know of quite a few Marines with CAR's who just happened to be in the right place at the right time and had their name thrown into the hat.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 22, 2016)

So just over 78k CIB's and over 100k CAB's during the GWOT according to Wikipedia.


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## AWP (May 22, 2016)

If I were a betting man, I'd say the number of erroneously awarded CIB's is far higher than those who deserve but didn't receive the CIB.


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## Florida173 (May 22, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> If I were a betting man, I'd say the number of erroneously awarded CIB's is far higher than those who deserve but didn't receive the CIB.



Erroneously? What's the approval authority? An O5?

There are tons of people with CIBs that I would consider to have not earned it based on regs. I'd agree that there are far fewer that have not received it from the blanket awards


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 22, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> If I were a betting man, I'd say the number of erroneously awarded CIB's is far higher than those who deserve but didn't receive the CIB.



Friend of mine didn't get his CIB or service award because of a bullshit article 15. 


Dude was on Haifa Street in 04 when 1/9 Cav lost a Bradley and had to call in CAS on it  (the "innocent" crowd).

Haifa Street helicopter incident - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Still got pictures of it...

Besides the few gunfights I was personally witnessed him, that day was pretty damn sporty for a little while.


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## Devildoc (May 24, 2016)

I have no clue how the Navy would track it.  There are squids attached to commands that do/did find themselves in a kinetic action, but aside from official post-mortems/AARs, there's no bling to show for it.  The Marines award the Combat Action Ribbon, but when I was in, that was more than just slinging lead toward the sound of gunfire to rate it.

Good luck.  I think this would a very difficult project.


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## Gunz (May 24, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> I have no clue how the Navy would track it.  There are squids attached to commands that do/did find themselves in a kinetic action, but aside from official post-mortems/AARs, there's no bling to show for it.  The Marines award the Combat Action Ribbon, but when I was in, that was more than just slinging lead toward the sound of gunfire to rate it.
> 
> Good luck.  I think this would a very difficult project.



Rog that, IIRC, the CAR is contingent upon satisfactory performance in combat. You can't stick your face in the sand while your getting shot at and rate it.


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## Ooh-Rah (May 24, 2016)

Regarding the Corps.  Just because I was curious...

(C) BEING AWARDED THE PURPLE HEART DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MAKE A SERVICE MEMBER ELIGIBLE FOR THE CAR, NOR DOES MERELY SERVING IN A COMBAT AREA OR BEING EXPOSED TO ENEMY FIRE OR THREAT OF ENEMY FIRE.

REVISED ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA FOR AWARD OF THE COMBAT ACTION RIBBON (CAR) AND UPDATED COORDINATING INSTRUCTIONS > The Official United States Marine Corps Public Website > Messages Display


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## Devildoc (May 24, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Regarding the Corps.  Just because I was curious...
> 
> (C) BEING AWARDED THE PURPLE HEART DOES NOT AUTOMATICALLY MAKE A SERVICE MEMBER ELIGIBLE FOR THE CAR, NOR DOES MERELY SERVING IN A COMBAT AREA OR BEING EXPOSED TO ENEMY FIRE OR THREAT OF ENEMY FIRE.
> 
> REVISED ELIGIBILITY CRITERIA FOR AWARD OF THE COMBAT ACTION RIBBON (CAR) AND UPDATED COORDINATING INSTRUCTIONS > The Official United States Marine Corps Public Website > Messages Display



Truth.  They hold the CAR in very high regard.

As an aside the Corps generally isn't "medal happy."  Neither is the Navy.  My father retired from the Marines, most of his time in intel.  During one of his tours in Vietnam his outpost was attacked.  He assumed command of a mortar pit when it's leadership was killed, directing it in defense.  The VC/NVA was so close he was also using a pistol.  He was put in for a Bronze Star, which was downgraded to a Navy & Marine Comm with a "V".  I showed the citation to a friend, retired O5 in the Army, who said in the Army that could have been a Silver Star.  I am not defending anything or complaining on my father's behalf, just observing the Marines are stingy with awards.  In fact, my dad shrugged off the whole thing, saying he simply did his job as a Marine.  He did have a CAR, though.


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## Ooh-Rah (May 24, 2016)

I just like that they use the word, "merely" . That made me laugh out loud.


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## Beagle (May 25, 2016)

I know 1 infantry guy that did only office work/ never left the FOB/ never pull guard duty and he got a CIB.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 25, 2016)

Beagle said:


> I know 1 infantry guy that did only office work/ never left the FOB/ never pull guard duty and he got a CIB.



I know a few of those...


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## Gunz (May 26, 2016)

Devildoc said:


> Truth.  They hold the CAR in very high regard.
> 
> As an aside *the Corps generally isn't "medal happy."*  Neither is the Navy.  My father retired from the Marines, most of his time in intel.  During one of his tours in Vietnam his outpost was attacked.  He assumed command of a mortar pit when it's leadership was killed, directing it in defense.  The VC/NVA was so close he was also using a pistol.  He was put in for a Bronze Star, which was downgraded to a Navy & Marine Comm with a "V".  I showed the citation to a friend, retired O5 in the Army, who said in the Army that could have been a Silver Star.  I am not defending anything or complaining on my father's behalf, just observing *the Marines are stingy with awards*.  In fact, my dad shrugged off the whole thing, saying he simply did his job as a Marine.  He did have a CAR, though.




Ain't that the truth. And more stingy with enlisted and NCOs than officers.


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## Florida173 (May 26, 2016)

Pardon my ignorance. Does the CAR equal CIB? 

I've heard from some of our former Marines that once they transition over they can just wear the CIB. I'd think that it would still require orders, but never really cared much to track it down.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 26, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Ain't that the truth. And more stingy with enlisted and NCOs than officers.



The Army is completely jacked up on awards for lower enlisted/ JrNCO's. They freaking automatic BSM's for E7 and up just for living through a tour, than down grade Silver Star shit to ARCOM's with V all day. I've never understood that shit.



Florida173 said:


> Pardon my ignorance. Does the CAR equal CIB?
> 
> I've heard from some of our former Marines that once they transition over they can just wear the CIB. I'd think that it would still require orders, but never really cared much to track it down.



Nope, you have to have permanent orders awarding the CIB to wear it. USMC CAR is authorized as the ribbon for wear on ASU, but no they can't just slap on a CIB. We had a former Marine do that shit who had a CAR, 1SG ripped him pretty good and made him take it off.


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## Teufel (May 26, 2016)

Ocoka One said:


> Rog that, IIRC, the CAR is contingent upon satisfactory performance in combat. You can't stick your face in the sand while your getting shot at and rate it.



The original criteria was to take fire and return fire.  Now it's take fire and perform appropriate action.


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## Etype (May 29, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> The Army is completely jacked up on awards for lower enlisted/ JrNCO's. They freaking automatic BSM's for E7 and up just for living through a tour, than down grade Silver Star shit to ARCOM's with V all day. I've never understood that shit.


The narratives for SS, BSMV, and ARCOMVs usually look pretty similar.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 29, 2016)

Etype said:


> The narratives for SS, BSMV, and ARCOMVs usually look pretty similar.



Would you disagree that it has more to do with rank than what actually took place? Not talking about your SF experience but on the conventional side.


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## Etype (May 29, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Would you disagree that it has more to do with rank than what actually took place? Not talking about your SF experience but on the conventional side.


I think it could definitely a factor.


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## Florida173 (May 29, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Would you disagree that it has more to do with rank than what actually took place? Not talking about your SF experience but on the conventional side.



On one of my last deployments I saw a BN systematically reduce awards from arcom to aam for people that were spc and below. They had their quotas to keep.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 29, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> On one of my last deployments I saw a BN systematically reduce awards from arcom to aam for people that were spc and below. They had their quotas to keep.



Edit: Nevermind, no need to air dirty laundry.


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## SpongeBob*24 (May 30, 2016)

The Army AWARD system has been broke for decades, same with NCOER.  They came out with new NCOER, and made it worse....
I hope they don't "TRY" to fix the AWARD system.....:blkeye:


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## Gunz (May 31, 2016)

SpongeBob*24 said:


> The Army AWARD system has been broke for decades, same with NCOER.  They came out with new NCOER, and made it worse....
> I hope they don't "TRY" to fix the AWARD system.....:blkeye:



Not just Army. All the branches. It's a crap shoot. Some people are in a position to influence who gets what when. And officers are probably more likely to be in those positions. Some feel the need to be hard-asses when it comes time to review recommendations for enlisted and NCO decorations. I'm not talking about combat officers; but in-the-rear-with-the-gear dudes who feel they have to downgrade the recommendations of combat officers for one reason or another.


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