# West Point Cadets O.D. on Crack & Fentanyl



## Gunz (Mar 11, 2022)

Jesus. 

West Point cadets on spring break overdose on fentanyl-laced cocaine in South Florida vacation home


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## Marauder06 (Mar 11, 2022)

Gunz said:


> Jesus.
> 
> West Point cadets on spring break overdose on fentanyl-laced cocaine in South Florida vacation home


God damn it.


Well I guess I know what I'm going to be talking about in class on Monday.


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## LimaPanther (Mar 11, 2022)

Our future leaders.


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## Kaldak (Mar 11, 2022)

Why? Just...why...


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## Topkick (Mar 11, 2022)

Just wow. My son is a cadet at USMA...not a good look for the home team.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 11, 2022)

Kaldak said:


> Why? Just...why...


I'm holding out hope that someone spiked their drinks or messed with their vape or something.

Anything.

Anything other than a whole lot of West Point cadets knowingly did coke.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 11, 2022)

So will we dismiss these cadets?  I'd hope drug use is enough if honor violations aren't.



Marauder06 said:


> I'm holding out hope that someone spiked their drinks or messed with their vape or something.
> 
> Anything.
> 
> Anything other than a whole lot of West Point cadets knowingly did coke.



Sir, we had a drug problem at VMI.  I'm sure the problem is just as bad at West Point.


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## Topkick (Mar 11, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> I'm holding out hope that someone spiked their drinks or messed with their vape or something.
> 
> Anything.
> 
> Anything other than a whole lot of West Point cadets knowingly did coke.


Right? Always respected and worked with many fine West Point officers throughout my own career. As a father I've been a little disappointed with West Point. But, its hard to swallow that this caliber of young men and/or women would blow it this way (no pun intended).


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## Marauder06 (Mar 11, 2022)

Topkick said:


> Right? Always respected and worked with many fine West officers throughout my own career. As father I've been a little disappointed with West Point. But, its hard to swallow that this caliber of young men and/or women would blow it this way (no pun intended).


Tell your son to come by my office some time.  I'll message you the office number.


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## Grunt (Mar 11, 2022)

No one is immune to illicit drugs. They cross all boundaries - even those we hope are above its grasp.


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 12, 2022)

_“Two of the cadets had not ingested the drugs but were overcome by the effects of fentanyl when they attempted to perform mouth-to-mouth resuscitation on their sickened friends,”_

Riiight….


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 12, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> God damn it.
> 
> 
> Well I guess I know what I'm going to be talking about in class on Monday.


You are the first person I thought of when I read this.  I mean…for F’s sake.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 12, 2022)

Ooh-Rah said:


> _“Two of the cadets had not ingested the drugs but were overcome by the effects of fentanyl when they attempted to perform mouth-to-mouth resuscitation on their sickened friends,”_
> 
> Riiight….


That was more or less my reaction too.  That said, if it were me, that would be my story and I would stick to it.


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## Gunz (Mar 12, 2022)

.


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## Dimethylamine (Mar 12, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> So will we dismiss these cadets?  I'd hope drug use is enough if honor violations aren't.



I hope the punishment fits the crime.  I was just reading the West Point cheating thread, about how a lot was swept under the rug because a lot of them were athletes.

We had a group of trouble makers in my last deployment.  About 7 of them decided to do weed while on pass.  The CDR found out, had them piss tested, then the BN CDR gave them field grade Article 15s, reduced to E-1, 45 days of extra duty, and 1 month of reduced pay, but still not dismissed.  Jokes on them; the weed they smoked was CBD weed, not THC; so they got in all the trouble without all the fun.  No giggles, no munchies, no Cheech and Chong moments.

I'm hoping West Point punishes them accordingly, because we're all watching.


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## Johca (Mar 12, 2022)

I'd like to know how they got through all screening to get that student appointment to West Point to begin with.  I doubt their drug use just suddenly started after they got to West Point.  Maybe they should just close all the Military service academies? BTW: The West Point Football roster lists 99, six and potentially 8, is 16-20 percent of that roster.  I wonder if the investigation will cause the drug use to cause a greater percent impact on the remaining 93?


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## “The Old Man” (Mar 12, 2022)

Dimethylamine said:


> I hope the punishment fits the crime.  I was just reading the West Point cheating thread, about how a lot was swept under the rug because a lot of them were athletes.
> 
> We had a group of trouble makers in my last deployment.  About 7 of them decided to do weed while on pass.  The CDR found out, had them piss tested, then the BN CDR gave them field grade Article 15s, reduced to E-1, 45 days of extra duty, and 1 month of reduced pay, but still not dismissed.  Jokes on them; the weed they smoked was CBD weed, not THC; so they got in all the trouble without all the fun.  No giggles, no munchies, no Cheech and Chong moments.
> 
> I'm hoping West Point punishes them accordingly, because we're all watching.


How, could they test + for THC metabolites by smoking CBD cannabis? 
I would venture they knew what they were smoking. 
OTC CBD cannabis is so low in THC. It is undetectable on a 10 panel screen.


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## RackMaster (Mar 12, 2022)

Even with low THC concentration in CBD dominant strains, you can still pop in screening; especially after prolonged consumption.  THC builds in your system, specifically fatty cells and will then release over time.  If they weren't getting high, they probably kept consuming and that could lead to a concentration, high enough for the test.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 12, 2022)

CBD with with 0 THC is specifically grown plants which still have trace amounts, requires additional processing to get to 0%.  The stuff you buy at the dispensary will have plenty of THC in it even though it says 0.  None of those guys are doing 3rd party testing.  IFF you're going to be using CBD, you probably want to start and stop with Floyd's of Leadville.


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## “The Old Man” (Mar 12, 2022)

RackMaster said:


> Even with low THC concentration in CBD dominant strains, you can still pop in screening; especially after prolonged consumption.  THC builds in your system, specifically fatty cells and will then release over time.  If they weren't getting high, they probably kept consuming and that could lead to a concentration, high enough for the test.


Fair enough👍


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## TLDR20 (Mar 12, 2022)

Ooh-Rah said:


> _“Two of the cadets had not ingested the drugs but were overcome by the effects of fentanyl when they attempted to perform mouth-to-mouth resuscitation on their sickened friends,”_
> 
> Riiight….



Yeah that isn’t how fentanyl works. Those kids were also doing the drugs.


Johca said:


> I'd like to know how they got through all screening to get that student appointment to West Point to begin with.  I doubt their drug use just suddenly started after they got to West Point.  Maybe they should just close all the Military service academies? BTW: The West Point Football roster lists 99, six and potentially 8, is 16-20 percent of that roster.  I wonder if the investigation will cause the drug use to cause a greater percent impact on the remaining 93?



Check it out, (some)drugs are fun. Kids(which is what our cadets are) like to have fun. Kids(which is what our cadets are) like to push the rules. Kids fuck up and push the rules too far sometimes. If you think our ROTC and OCS kids weren’t out pounding beers, smoking drugs and doing other bad shit I got some unicorns to sell you.

College is for growing up and making some mistakes. I feel bad these kids ruined both their lives and their future careers. I can empathize with making a few bad choices, having it effect your life and moving passed it. Unfortunately we live in a zero defect situation and these kids will reap what they sowed, which was probably a poor drunken decision.

I personally wouldn’t want some virgin nerd do-gooder leading me


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## pardus (Mar 12, 2022)

Yeah I almost guarantee they were all drunk as shit when this happened.


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 12, 2022)

TLDR20 said:


> College is for growing up and making some mistakes. I feel bad these kids ruined both their lives and their future careers. I can empathize with making a few bad choices, having it effect your life and moving passed it. Unfortunately we live in a zero defect situation and these kids will reap what they sowed, which was probably a poor drunken decision.


Disclaimer - I’ve not applied to or attended any of the service academies. 

I think TV and movies give a false expectation of West Point, Annapolis type students; Taps, Officer and a Gentlemen Included.  These are still 18-twenty-something kids faced with the same curiosities and peer-pressure as any other college kid; only in their cases, the expectation for success is on overdrive and bad judgement calls or mistakes and significantly more impactful to their futures.  

In some ways I think that the collective, “we” hold them to a higher standard than they could ever hope to meet


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## TLDR20 (Mar 12, 2022)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Disclaimer - I’ve not applied to or attended any of the service academies.
> 
> I think TV and movies give a false expectation of West Point, Annapolis type students; Taps, Officer and a Gentlemen Included.  These are still 18-twenty-something kids faced with the same curiosities and peer-pressure as any other college kid; only in their cases, the expectation for success is on overdrive and bad judgement calls or mistakes and significantly more impactful to their futures.
> 
> In some ways I think that the collective, “we” hold them to a higher standard than they could ever hope to meet



Yeah and that’s not fair.


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## “The Old Man” (Mar 12, 2022)




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## Dimethylamine (Mar 12, 2022)

Tinman6 said:


> How, could they test + for THC metabolites by smoking CBD cannabis?
> I would venture they knew what they were smoking.
> OTC CBD cannabis is so low in THC. It is undetectable on a 10 panel screen.


They really can't.  CBD and THC are two different molecules and two different metabolites.  The DoD test is like 5 ng (or 15 ng) which is basically about a joint or so.  The CDR was just doing his due diligence.

Before someone asks me, "Why would you know that, seems like something a GUILTY person would know!" I was a chemist before getting serious in the military.


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## Dimethylamine (Mar 12, 2022)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah that isn’t how fentanyl works. Those kids were also doing the drugs.
> 
> 
> Check it out, (some)drugs are fun. Kids(which is what our cadets are) like to have fun. Kids(which is what our cadets are) like to push the rules. Kids fuck up and push the rules too far sometimes. If you think our ROTC and OCS kids weren’t out pounding beers, smoking drugs and doing other bad shit I got some unicorns to sell you.
> ...


I agree.  This is also why I did OCS.  I won't say I was a party animal in college, but I wasn't a Boy Scout either.  People need SOME wiggle room to make mistakes and learn from them.  The do-gooders I've worked with at least,  down the line ended up being too by the book and not well liked by their NCOs.

I caught my extra duty guys sneak off post and I punished them accordingly.  A couple of days later, I smelled alcohol on their breath (if you're on extra duty where we were at, alcohol was definitely a no go), but couldn't prove any shenanigans other than they just seemed hungover, and they stayed in their barracks, out of sight and out of mind after hours, so I didn't look any further.

Some could say I let that slide, but I still felt I punished when appropriate.  If anyone disagrees with me, I want to know why, because I've been told a time or two that I need to be tougher on my dudes.


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## pardus (Mar 12, 2022)

Dimethylamine said:


> I agree.  I caught my extra duty guys sneak off post and I punished them accordingly.  A couple of days later, I smelled alcohol on their breath (if you're on extra duty where we were at, alcohol was definitely a no go), but couldn't prove any shenanigans other than they just seemed hungover, and they stayed in their barracks, out of sight and out of mind after hours, so I didn't look any further.
> 
> Some could say I let that slide, but I still felt I punished when appropriate.  If anyone disagrees with me, I want to know why, because I've been told a time or two that I need to be tougher on my dudes.


Black and white doesn't exist, even though military regs would suggest otherwise. You have to use your judgement and consider all the factors in play, rather than blindly follow the regs. Those that scream that you must follow the regs exactly, are guilty of violations of those regs themselves, I guarantee you. NO ONE is infallible.


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## Dimethylamine (Mar 12, 2022)

pardus said:


> Black and white doesn't exist, even though military regs would suggest otherwise. You have to use your judgement and consider all the factors in play, rather than blindly follow the regs. Those that scream that you must follow the regs exactly, are guilty of violations of those regs themselves, I guarantee you. NO ONE is infallible.



I wish more people would realize this.  Whenever do-gooders say I'm breaking the rules, albeit a small one (such as being 1 minute late to curfew or having another beer when it's a "two drink limit at events"), I can't reason with them.  Logically, I am in the wrong.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 12, 2022)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah that isn’t how fentanyl works. Those kids were also doing the drugs.
> 
> 
> Check it out, (some)drugs are fun. Kids(which is what our cadets are) like to have fun. Kids(which is what our cadets are) like to push the rules. Kids fuck up and push the rules too far sometimes. If you think our ROTC and OCS kids weren’t out pounding beers, smoking drugs and doing other bad shit I got some unicorns to sell you.
> ...



I attended a college that held a single sanction honor system, in fact the only one left in this country.  It continuously tends to come under attack. 

Drug use, and illicit drug use should be delt with rapidly leading to full discharge. Yeah, I fucked up plenty. But none of my fuck ups were crimes either. The idea that they're "kids" is also not true.  All of them reached the age of majority, all of them understood what they were doing was wrong. 

Also...you can't just go get Fentanyl down at CVS.  You have to go find it. They're definitely idiots.

ETA-
It's hilarious that we as a society look down upon people who seek to be "do gooders" and use that as a pejorative.  Not sure what the issue with holding them to account to the damned letter of the UCMJ and even sending some to prison. The standards you set are those that you tolerate.  

Yeah, we're in a zero defect Army now and most of the people that rise in fact are horrible people that you'd never want near you in civil life. But generally, you should always seek to "Do Good" as a person.


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## Grunt (Mar 12, 2022)

Those students, clowns, whatever one chooses to call them are from the same society that we are all from and they certainly aren't immune to being the same idiots that go to *civilian" schools. The thing that aggravates me the most is that I as a taxpayer are paying for them to go there. They should do their best to honor the agreement they made in order to attend that school. As to them being any better than anyone else their age - nah, that just isn't so.


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## Totentanz (Mar 12, 2022)

pardus said:


> Black and white doesn't exist, even though military regs would suggest otherwise. You have to use your judgement and consider all the factors in play, rather than blindly follow the regs. Those that scream that you must follow the regs exactly, are guilty of violations of those regs themselves, I guarantee you. NO ONE is infallible.



One of the biggest lessons I learned on this forum many years back, expressed by @Marauder06, is that zero tolerance is a crap policy and leaders who use it (and other absolutes) aren't fully doing their jobs - specifically, that inflexible policies leave no room for the individual evaluation that the situations deserve.  Oftentimes, leaders have to have the balls to say "I've evaluated the situation and I've decided X" and assume personal responsibility.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 12, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> I attended a college that held a single sanction honor system, in fact the only one left in this country.  It continuously tends to come under attack.
> 
> Drug use, and illicit drug use should be delt with rapidly leading to full discharge. Yeah, I fucked up plenty. But none of my fuck ups were crimes either. The idea that they're "kids" is also not true.  All of them reached the age of majority, all of them understood what they were doing was wrong.
> 
> ...



Your post highlights you lack of understanding of drugs, and your lack of empathy in general. 

For drugs, fentanyl is routinely used to cut differing drugs. Cocaine is cut with fentanyl because it is cheap and it gives people a different high. They almost for sure did not know it was cut with fentanyl. 

Honestly I’d rather have an officer and teammates  who had a variety of experiences, ranging from the pristine to the borderline felonious. 

I don’t want some military academy virgin nerd who pontificates about how it was at VMI or the Point, while he sips a mich ultra.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 12, 2022)

Cool.  We both expect and tolerate different things.


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## Grunt (Mar 12, 2022)

TLDR20 said:


> Your post highlights you lack of understanding of drugs, and your lack of empathy in general.
> 
> For drugs, fentanyl is routinely used to cut differing drugs. Cocaine is cut with fentanyl because it is cheap and it gives people a different high. They almost for sure did not know it was cut with fentanyl.
> 
> ...


I can buy that, but I don't necessarily want a cocaine shooting/sniffing guy being a leader until they have been proven to have been clean for a good long time.


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## Kaldak (Mar 12, 2022)

I agree with you, to an extent @TLDR20 . I don't think they need to partake in the illicit activity to understand it. I've lost close friends to overdoses. I don't need to indulge to understand. I'd also hope I'm not seen as a vigin nerd for not partaking.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 12, 2022)

Grunt said:


> I can buy that, but I don't necessarily want a cocaine shooting/sniffing guy being a leader until they have been proven to have been clean for a good long time.





Kaldak said:


> I agree with you, to an extent @TLDR20 . I don't think they need to partake in the illicit activity to understand it. I've lost close friends to overdoses. I don't need to indulge to understand. I'd also hope I'm not seen as a vigin nerd for not partaking.



Yeah. You guys mean you don’t want 18-20 year olds who are still mistake prone leading you until they have grown up an out of their immaturity? That is what college is for…. 

These are kids. Kids make mistakes. Kids drunkenly do a line of coke when some hot chick says it’s a good idea. Remember being 18-20?


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## TLDR20 (Mar 12, 2022)

Grunt said:


> Those students, clowns, whatever one chooses to call them are from the same society that we are all from and they certainly aren't immune to being the same idiots that go to *civilian" schools. The thing that aggravates me the most is that I as a taxpayer are paying for them to go there. They should do their best to honor the agreement they made in order to attend that school. As to them being any better than anyone else their age - nah, that just isn't so.



Now this is a fair argument. I think it is a great argument against the academies in general. Though, I personally think the academies are awesome, but I think we need to hold our young studs to some normal ish college standards.


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## Grunt (Mar 12, 2022)

TLDR20 said:


> These are kids. Kids make mistakes. Kids drunkenly do a line of coke when some hot chick says it’s a good idea. Remember being 18-20?


Sure I do, but after wearing a badge for 30 years and making enough death notifications based on those types of activities, it usually isn't a one-time event for a hot girl...and no, I never did a line of coke to impress anyone. I don't give blanket tacit approval for *everything* based on being young and dumb.


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## Kaldak (Mar 12, 2022)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah. You guys mean you don’t want 18-20 year olds who are still mistake prone leading you until they have grown up an out of their immaturity? That is what college is for….
> 
> These are kids. Kids make mistakes. Kids drunkenly do a line of coke when some hot chick says it’s a good idea. Remember being 18-20?



I do.

I never did coke. Much less heroin or any other opioid.

Beer and booze, yes.


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## Totentanz (Mar 12, 2022)

Kaldak said:


> I do.
> 
> I never did coke. Much less heroin or any other opioid.
> 
> Beer and booze, yes.


Same.  I had some friends with much less restraint that I... very few who were doing coke (even irregularly).


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## TLDR20 (Mar 12, 2022)

Grunt said:


> Sure I do, but after wearing a badge for 30 years and making enough death notifications based on those types of activities, it usually isn't a once event from a hot girl...and no, I never did a line of coke for a hot girl. I don't give blanket tacit approval for *everything* based on being young and dumb.



Nor did I. I don’t condone what they did, but mistakes are mistakes. They will pay for it forever. Kids are gonna make mistakes. These kids are paying for it. My point is they are doing what kids do. They weren’t shooting heroin, they got some bad drugs and paid for it severely.


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## pardus (Mar 12, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> I attended a college that held a single sanction honor system, in fact the only one left in this country.  It continuously tends to come under attack.
> 
> Drug use, and illicit drug use should be delt with rapidly leading to full discharge. Yeah, I fucked up plenty. But none of my fuck ups were crimes either. The idea that they're "kids" is also not true.  All of them reached the age of majority, all of them understood what they were doing was wrong.
> 
> ...


I'll try and hit this in chronological order.
Enlisted guys are on an automatic track of discharge unless the CDR steps up for them (I know you know this, this is for the general audience), and I do agree that Officers should be held to a higher standard. However I have thought since going to the US that the powers that be are obsessed with cookie cutter perfection and it is a deeply flawed concept. This concept sets the tone from the start, and as we all know, you cannot build a solid structure without a solid foundation.
So you admit that you've fucked up, good, everyone has, were you given breaks from bosses for those indiscretions? Glass houses and all that.
I'm am quite sure that the idiot the bought the coke had no idea that it was laced with fentanyl. The person who sold it possibly didn't even know. Fentanyl is coming in boatloads from China ((probably other places too) 1 Ton of Fentanyl was seized by the NYPD in 2021 for example).
Have a deep think about all of the times you have broken by action or inaction to the "damned letter" of the UCMJ. 
One should always strive to do the right thing as a person and particularly as a military member where your actions have massive impacts on people's lives, generally for the worst.
IMHO, Everyone involved and the entire situation needs to be thoroughly investigated, and anyone directly responsible for the deaths should face the appropriate adverse actions, but going full Virgin Mary puritan on them will do one thing, punish them, and this will happen again next year, and the year after, ad infinitum. I'm pretty sure the Army will do it's normal thing, discharge a couple, bust a couple, enforce more mandatory briefings, tighten the screws on cadet's freedoms, but it will do no good. The Army/Military is too inflexible to enact any real change.
I'm sure we'll strive forward with diversity training though, Trans Soldiers and pronouns Hooah!


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## TLDR20 (Mar 12, 2022)

Kaldak said:


> I do.
> 
> I never did coke. Much less heroin or any other opioid.
> 
> Beer and booze, yes.



This was accidental opioid ingestion almost for sure.


pardus said:


> I'll try and hit this in chronological order.
> Enlisted guys are on an automatic track of discharge unless the CDR steps up for them (I know you know this, this is for the general audience), and I do agree that Officers should be held to a higher standard. However I have thought since going to the US that the powers that be are obsessed with cookie cutter perfection and it is a deeply flawed concept. This concept sets the tone from the start, and as we all know, you cannot build a solid structure without a solid foundation.
> So you admit that you've fucked up, good, everyone has, were you given breaks from bosses for those indiscretions? Glass houses and all that.
> I'm am quite sure that the idiot the bought the coke had no idea that it was laced with fentanyl. The person who sold it possibly didn't even know. Fentanyl is coming in boatloads from China ((probably other places too) 1 Ton of Fentanyl was seized by the NYPD in 2021 for example).
> ...



This^


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## Topkick (Mar 12, 2022)

Ooh-Rah said:


> In some ways I think that the collective, “we” hold them to a higher standard than they could ever hope to meet


Not everyone gets a trophy. I would not advocate ruining their lives... but maybe tough love means you had one shot at it and now you don't get to graduate from West Point. You go somewhere else and start over. There are so many quality kids who dont get a shot because they didnt get the break they needed.


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## ThunderHorse (Mar 12, 2022)

pardus said:


> I'll try and hit this in chronological order.
> Enlisted guys are on an automatic track of discharge unless the CDR steps up for them (I know you know this, this is for the general audience), and I do agree that Officers should be held to a higher standard. However I have thought since going to the US that the powers that be are obsessed with cookie cutter perfection and it is a deeply flawed concept. This concept sets the tone from the start, and as we all know, you cannot build a solid structure without a solid foundation.
> So you admit that you've fucked up, good, everyone has, were you given breaks from bosses for those indiscretions? Glass houses and all that.
> I'm am quite sure that the idiot the bought the coke had no idea that it was laced with fentanyl. The person who sold it possibly didn't even know. Fentanyl is coming in boatloads from China ((probably other places too) 1 Ton of Fentanyl was seized by the NYPD in 2021 for example).
> ...



When it comes to illicit drug use I have a hard line from personal experience, and not from use.  Don't need to get into, but got the phone call a few too many times whether it was to bury a friend or soldier of mine that was a closet addict.  We can say that this is the time for someone to make mistakes, I can totally buy that, but those mistakes don't have to involve cocaine, heroine, fentanyl, or getting the behind the wheel and committing felony DUI.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 12, 2022)

I will also add, in case it isn’t clear, I personally find the use of hard drugs reprehensible. I find cocaine use by SMs particularly infuriating as I participated directly in the “war” on that drug. 

While in I knew dudes that used certain drugs and didn’t think it was cool then, nor do I find hard drug use cool now. 

College kids, doing drugs? I feel bad that this happened. Am I naive enough to think that it is abnormal behavior, or an aberration? No.


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## “The Old Man” (Mar 12, 2022)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah. You guys mean you don’t want 18-20 year olds who are still mistake prone leading you until they have grown up an out of their immaturity? That is what college is for….
> 
> These are kids. Kids make mistakes. Kids drunkenly do a line of coke when some hot chick says it’s a good idea. Remember being 18-20?


I went in the Army 1979 at the age of 17. I was stationed in a small town, Frederick MD.
The sister college to Annapolis is there, Hood college. It is an all female college. It was th 80’s. So I can completely understand your POV. As I did not even come close to an ARCOM for a minute.
Unfortunately, I do not understand myself. Why there is so little room to redeem one’s self. From any ghost’s of their past’s.
Seems to me that. We should take EVERYONE on an Individual basis. Whether it be to chastise/punish or, lift up/commend.
I had a serious alcoholic for a Senior Drill at Jackson, in C-2-9. The 4 of us squad leaders in 1st platoon got woke up around 0300 one morning. Whereupon we were locked into his squad bay quarters. Then ordered to drink a gallon of Mogen & David table wine. Never ever saw him again. We were put under investigation for the rest of the cycle. Finally our Battalion CO. Found us not responsible for any of the actions that night. When he could have ended our very short military careers. We had been in boot a total of 6 weeks.


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## Topkick (Mar 12, 2022)

TLDR20 said:


> Am I naive enough to think that it is abnormal behavior, or an aberration? No.


True. But as you know, elite doesn't happen without a "weeding out"


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## pardus (Mar 12, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> When it comes to illicit drug use I have a hard line from personal experience, and not from use.  Don't need to get into, but got the phone call a few too many times whether it was to bury a friend or soldier of mine that was a closet addict.  We can say that this is the time for someone to make mistakes, I can totally buy that, but those mistakes don't have to involve cocaine, heroine, fentanyl, or getting the behind the wheel and committing felony DUI.


For sure, but let me ask, have you *EVER* driven at least buzzed? I know I have.
I'm known as a tough, no bullshit NCO, who doesn't tolerate BS. I have publicly berated and yelled at Officers (no higher than CPTs though lol) when *I* thought it was appropriate. Ive been around enough to know by experience (sorry knees, back, shoulders and brain) when to do the yelling and apparent apoplectic rage (I would often give a wink the NCOs etc... while doing so which amused them to no end) , and when to quietly pull someone aside and speak as a human being, no rank on subjects that required it. I was fortunate to have had my formative years in a Commonwealth Army which has a different mindset in these matters, and close to 20 years as an NCO, to allow me to judge the best path to given situations. My way is not the best way nor the only way, but it is a way, but a way now seen as unacceptable by the US Army.
I would encourage all to read autobiographies and biographies on famous military members and the fuck ups they had but moved past them.

I will just leave this here...

Medal of Honor: Peter Lemon was high on marijuana, he single-handedly fought off two waves of Vietcong


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## AWP (Mar 13, 2022)

South Florida wouldn’t exist if the coke from the 70’s and 80’s was cut with Fentanyl.

Fentanyl’s ubiquity makes doing some drugs today an absolute crap shoot. If those cadets are guilty of anything it is a failure to pay attention to current events. They are lucky to be alive.


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## RackMaster (Mar 13, 2022)

It's no different than the morons that think any drug, especially marijuana from their friendly neighbourhood drug dealer; are not laced with fentanyl.   Everything is now, especially with the cartels behind supply.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 13, 2022)

RackMaster said:


> It's no different than the morons that think any drug, especially marijuana from their friendly neighbourhood drug dealer; are not laced with fentanyl.   Everything is now, especially with the cartels behind supply.



Marijuana laced with Fentanyl? I hadn’t heard of that yet. One more reason to legalize marijuana and reduce the influence that cartels can exert.

I found this piece relating to a case where fentanyl laced marijuana was found. Should we fear fentanyl-laced marijuana? - The Boston Globe

Bottom line, don’t do drugs if you aren’t supposed to. If you are legally allowed, buy it from a legal source.

Also cops(or other first responders) don’t OD on fentanyl from contact…. That is a myth that absolutely refuses to die.


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## Grunt (Mar 13, 2022)

People need hobbies - not drugs. They need mentors where parents are gone or inept -  not drugs. Drugs are as old as time, but they are out of control now. Lives are being wasted along with careers. People need to step up to the plate and fix the issue.


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## RackMaster (Mar 13, 2022)

Legal cannabis products are expensive because the government has it's sticky fingers in it.  There was a woman that died last year.  I should add that edibles and vape products are becoming the products of choice.  https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prin...yl-pot-weed-cannabis-overdose-death-1.5930316


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## AWP (Mar 13, 2022)

Shameless plug for AWP Brown Sugar. I source the best sugar cane and only produce it in an environmentally friendly, sustainable way in Helmand province. I give back to the community too, where 98% of my staff are from the community but most importantly I only hire veterans. I guarantee the purity of my sugar and you can count on reliable delivery times, because that is also in house. We do not have a supply chain bottleneck and most importantly in these troubled times, I refuse to raise the cost of my sugar due to inflation. 

For your baking needs, choose AWP brand brown sugar. So good, I’ll make you a customer for life. Guaranteed.


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## Chopstick (Mar 13, 2022)

Same here in PA regarding medical marijuana @RackMaster .  When I was working in pain management my particular clinic did not co-prescribe to patients on medical marijuana.  Patients would also have the expectation that our practioners would sign off on their applications to the State but that was not the case.  Patients also would be shocked to find that the process to apply was all out of pocket and that the products are not covered by their insurance plans.  They are also surprised to find out that although medical marijuana is legal in PA provided the patient qualifies, it is still illegal at the Federal level and would cause gun ownership issues. It's a huge can of worms with the Commonwealth coming out on top financially.  So, many people just end up using the good old corner dealer.  :/
Medical Marijuana Patient and Caregiver Resources


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## TLDR20 (Mar 13, 2022)

RackMaster said:


> Legal cannabis products are expensive because the government has it's sticky fingers in it.  There was a woman that died last year.  I should add that edibles and vape products are becoming the products of choice.  https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/prin...yl-pot-weed-cannabis-overdose-death-1.5930316



We are quickly getting off track, but I’m interested in this topic, and in my current role and scope know a metric shit ton about opiates.


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## Chopstick (Mar 13, 2022)

They apparently have the dealer.  https://www.winknews.com/2022/03/12/arrest-in-fentanyl-overdoses-of-west-point-cadets-in-florida/


> Police have confirmed they have made an arrest in the overdosing of college students who ingested cocaine laced with fentanyl in Wilton Manors.
> 
> 
> Police identified Axel Giovany Casseus, 21, as the person who sold the spring breakers the drugs.
> ...


 Maybe it's just a 'burgh thing but it seems in our parts there are constant incidents of marijuana being laced with fentanyl.  This was in the headlines just a year ago here.  Washington County Reporting Alarming Increase In Fatal Overdoses, Experts Blame Fentanyl-Laced Drugs

But recently there have been problems with this in particular in Connecticut as well.  In a middle school and a high school.  Student, 16, overdoses on suspected fentanyl-laced marijuana at Connecticut high school, police say

Just say 'no", kids.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 13, 2022)

I started a *thread for discussing illegal drugs*, I had some questions and didn't want to derail this thread.

Since this is an ongoing situation I'm not going to comment directly on this case or what I think should happen to the people involved.  I'll also add that I don't know any more than anyone else reading the news and I won't be involved in any of the command decisions that result from the investigation that is going to take place over this incident.  I do have some other thoughts though, and I'll probably make a couple of different posts about it.

First:  In cases like this, some people tend to jump on the "bash the Academies" bandwagon.  Part of that is because this is soooo far out of the norm.  There are 4,000+ cadets at West Point, and most of them toe the line most of the time.  I've seen the headlines about the 6 (or whatever number it is now) cadets.  You know what you're NOT going to see, ever?  A headline that reads "3,994 cadets do the right thing 364 days a year."  Every organization has its bad actors, including the Special Operations community, who by the way has its own struggles with drug issues.  I'd be curious to know if we did a random sample of 4,000 active-duty Soldiers (West Point cadets are active duty and subject to UCMJ) in a similar age demographic (17-27) and counted the annual drug busts per capita, if West Point's would be higher or lower. My sense is that the Academy's rate would be significantly lower.  I'll also re-iterate something I've said many times:  first reports are almost always wrong, and it's wise to wait for the whole story to come out before racing to extreme recommendations like "shut down West Point!"  I do think that there are legitimate arguments for doing away with the Service Academies, but this particular incident, in isolation, probably isn't one of them.  .

Second:  In general, the "they're just kids" argument doesn't hold up for me.  To begin with, West Point cadets are not "kids."  With the very limited exception of cadets who enroll while they're still 17, every single one of them is a legal adult, bound by UCMJ.  West Point invests an extraordinary amount of time training cadets in character, military discipline, and the bounds of legal and moral behavior.  If adults make adult decisions, then they get to live with the adult consequences.  Drug abuse is so beyond the pale of acceptable behavior not only at West Point but in the Army that severe consequences are warranted.  It calls into question character and decision-making as well as organizational and individual trust,  which in turn questions one's ability to serve as an Army officer.  You want to "be like other college 'kids'" and do a bunch of drugs in your late teens and early 20s? OK then, but do it somewhere other than West Point.  After serving on the Admissions Committee, I can guarantee there are probably 3-5 other fully qualified candidates who could have taken your slot and would probably NOT have ruined it over illegal drugs.

Third: Rules following. I have been in the Army almost 27 years. Over that time I have become more and more tolerant of human failings, which I guess some people would call "less by-the-book." However, I also know that if you let enough little things slide over time, they become big things. The most extreme example is portrayed in the book Black Hearts, which I encourage all of you to read if you haven't already.  I still punish people when they deserve it, but I now do so unemotionally and don't take it personally.  We have a lot of rules in our Army, and a lot of people who break them.  Not everyone needs their nuts crushed over every little thing.  But if you nip the little things in the bud, they don't bloom into a big problem for everyone later.  It's a delicate balance.

I have also found that in many cases, leaders don't enforce rules because they are lazy, or they are scared, or they lack the courage to risk disapproval of the people they lead.  This isn't always the case, of course.  But when I find out a subordinate leader has not been enforcing rules, I look at why.  Was it for their troops, or was it for themselves?  Did you decide to PT the crap out of your private for breaking curfew instead of reporting him to me for a summarized Article 15 (the CG-directed punishment when I was in 2ID) because you were trying to help the Soldier, or are you trying to sweep it under the rug?  Worse yet, are YOU the one coming in late, thinking that the rules don't apply to you?  If I can't trust you with little shit, how can I trust you with big issues?

Fourth:  I believe in redemption and second chances. I also believe that all of life is developmental, and especially in one's late teens and early 20s.  That's why I was very supportive of West Point's move away from an attritional model--especially when it comes to character/moral issues--to a developmental one.  But egregious violations of norms and standards, especially when they are widely known, need timely, substantial, and publicly-known punishments.  West Point has several sanctions available for major violations, including complete expulsion, "roll back" to a later graduating class (trust me, this is a much bigger deal to cadets than it might seem), to "Army Mentorship," where cadets serve time as a non-promotable spec-4 in an active duty unit.  In many of those cases, cadets can re-apply if they choose, and some of those who re-apply are re-admitted.  But the punishment has to happen as part of the growth and developmental process.   I've had second chances in my life.  There are plenty of people on this site who got kicked off and were allowed back with a second chance and reintegrated just fine.  Others went right back to their old ways and were kicked off a second, permanent time.  Same things with West Point cadets.

Fifth (and this will be the last thought for this post):  the argument that "everyone does it" or "what did you do when you were young" doesn't hold water.  No, not everyone does illegal drugs.  Yes, everyone at West Point knows that doing illegal drugs, even once, will probably get you punted.  If they do that anyway, it's on them.  And there are probably a thousand West Point cadets, and tens of thousands of other college students who graduate every year in the US, who manage to go their entire college careers without taking drugs.   I did.  One of the main reasons I did was because I knew if I didn't stay drug-free, that would affect my ability to stay in school and to join the Army.  Other people have different opinions and made different choices.  Again, now that I'm older I understand it better, but as I believe in redemption and second changes and are more tolerant of all types of failure in both others and myself, I also believe in agency and accountability.  If you do it, you live with the consequences.


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## Chopstick (Mar 13, 2022)

@Marauder I  meant to ask earlier and my apologies if this is a stupid  question,  but are Cadets randomly drug tested as a routine? For instance would a Cadet expect to undergo drug test  returning from  a break or leave?


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## Marauder06 (Mar 13, 2022)

Chopstick said:


> @Marauder I  meant to ask earlier and my apologies if this is a stupid  question,  but are Cadets randomly drug tested as a routine? For instance would a Cadet expect to undergo drug test  returning from  a break or leave?


Yes, and it's not just the cadets, sis.  I've been "randomly selected" for drug tests here several times.  Maybe someone observed me teaching and was like, "this guy has to be high, put him on the list for the next 4 whiz quizes." ;)

I'm not involved in direct leadership of the cadets so I don't know what the periodicity of the testing is.  I will say that when I was a company commander in Korea, all of my troops knew that the first formation after their mid-tour leave, they were getting a urinalysis.  That was my way of helping my Soldiers resist peer pressure "I'd love to smoke a bowl with you, but my dickhead company commander is going to give me a piss test as soon as I get back, and I'm not tryna get kicked out and have to repay my $30,000 enlistment bonus."

I'm sure there were some who did drugs that were not easily testable by the Army, but I can't do everything so I did what I could.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 13, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> .  That was my way of helping my Soldiers resist peer pressure "I'd love to smoke a bowl with you, but my dickhead company commander is going to give me a piss test as soon as I get back, and I'm not tryna get kicked out and have to repay my $30,000 enlistment bonus."
> 
> I'm sure there were some who did drugs that were not easily testable by the Army, but I can't do everything so I did what I could.



This is the way.


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## AWP (Mar 13, 2022)

Just don’t be like the FLARNG MLRS battery where close to 50% popped hot for cocaine after a unit Christmas party. The guy who brought the snow? The First Sergeant.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 13, 2022)

AWP said:


> Just don’t be like the FLARNG MLRS battery where close to 50% popped hot for cocaine after a unit Christmas party. The guy who brought the snow? The First Sergeant.


Maybe it was just one guy and everyone else was giving him mouth-to-mouth


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## RackMaster (Mar 13, 2022)

Mouth-to-nose... lol


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## AWP (Mar 13, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> Maybe it was just one guy and everyone else was giving him mouth-to-mouth



Considering they are artillery it was probably more like ass-to-mouth…


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## Gunz (Mar 13, 2022)

Cannon cockers. 🙄


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## Dimethylamine (Mar 13, 2022)

AWP said:


> Considering they are artillery it was probably more like ass-to-mouth…


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## AWP (Mar 13, 2022)

Dimethylamine said:


>



I’m Signal (back in the day), so I’m happy when Intel comes along to make us look good.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 14, 2022)

It's interesting how stories start to change once the facts start emerging.

This went from "6 West Point football players OD'd" to "four cadets, one of whom is a football player."  



> At least six people were hospitalized for ingesting the tainted cocaine Thursday. Four are cadets at the U.S. Military Academy at West Point, and one of those four is an Army football player, according to an Army spokesperson.


Man arrested for fentanyl-laced cocaine sold to Army football player, spring break students is identified

Any West Point cadet doing any illegal drug is still a big deal and I'm not trying to downplay the significance of "only" one football player being involved.  Just using this as another example of what I mean by "first reports are almost always wrong."

For that matter we could find out tomorrow that it was 100 cadets, or zero, or that they all got roofied instead of willingly taking the drug.  I don't think any of those are likely, but I guess we'll see what happens in the investigation.


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## Dimethylamine (Mar 14, 2022)

AWP said:


> I’m Signal (back in the day), so I’m happy when Intel comes along to make us look good.


Same with Fires, that is, if Intel is giving us high pay off targets rather than just briefing us on the weather.


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## Grunt (Mar 14, 2022)

The media never misses an opportunity to use click-bait headlines to draw people in. They like to use the worst case scenario more often than not.


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## Marauder06 (Mar 14, 2022)

This is the publicly-released message from West Point’s Superintendent.


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## SOSTCRNA (Mar 14, 2022)

LimaPanther said:


> Our future leaders.


Not this bunch


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## DA SWO (Mar 16, 2022)

They can get a second chance as civilians. DUI/ MJ, I'd say give them a second chance.  Hard shit like coke, nope.


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## Kaldak (Mar 16, 2022)

A DUI is a pass? That's more likely to impact others, if not kill than coke or "MJ" on its own.



DA SWO said:


> They can get a second chance as civilians. DUI/ MJ, I'd say give them a second chance.  Hard shit like coke, nope.


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## DA SWO (Mar 17, 2022)

Kaldak said:


> A DUI is a pass? That's more likely to impact others, if not kill than coke or "MJ" on its own.


Situational for me, I lost a guy who was a passenger because the cop arrested the driver then told the passenger to park the car.  He then arrested my guy for DUI.


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## racing_kitty (Mar 17, 2022)

DA SWO said:


> Situational for me, I lost a guy who was a passenger because the cop arrested the driver then told the passenger to park the car.  He then arrested my guy for DUI.


Dirty pool right there.


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## DA SWO (Mar 17, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> It's interesting how stories start to change once the facts start emerging.
> 
> This went from "6 West Point football players OD'd" to "four cadets, one of whom is a football player."
> 
> ...


Have they verified 4 Cadets?  I saw a story (should have saved the link) that said it was now just two Cadets.


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## Marine0311 (Mar 18, 2022)

Kick them all out. Too bad


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## Topkick (Mar 19, 2022)

Marine0311 said:


> Kick them all put. Too bad


Agree that these cadets shouldn't graduate from West Point. To allow that would be setting a new standard, Our service academies should be elite and it takes a lot of hard work and even more good fortune to get in. If you get in, don't screw it up. There are many great, talented kids who didn't get a shot and probably wouldn't have f'd it up.


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## policemedic (Mar 19, 2022)

TLDR20 said:


> I don’t want some military academy virgin nerd who pontificates about how it was at VMI or the Point, while he sips a mich ultra.*water*



FIFY.


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