# South Africa's Capital City Is About To Run Out Of Water... If Only There Was Someone Who Could Help



## Marauder06 (Feb 6, 2018)

South Africa's legislative capital, Cape Town, is about to run out of water.  Israel is a leader in water purification and de-salination.  But South Africa signed on to the "boycott, divestment, and sanctions"program to support the Palestinian Authority, so they boycotted import of Israeli tech and experts. 

Now they're down to 13 gallons per person per day.  I hope the people think it's worth it.

Details here.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 6, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> Now they're down to 13 gallons per person per day. I hope the people think it's worth it.


To quote @AWP : ..."you pays your money and you takes your chances."


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## Marauder06 (Feb 6, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> To quote @AWP : ..."you pays your money and you takes your chances."



Also to quote AWP:  "Play stupid games, win stupid prizes."


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## Gunz (Feb 6, 2018)

It's fashionable among progressives to side with the Palestinians at Israel's expense. Even if your balls drop off in the process.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 6, 2018)

Okay @Serenity -

If you are going to drop a couple of “thumbs down”, forum etiquette says you should at least give a reason for your “dislikes”.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 6, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Okay @Serenity -
> 
> If you are going to drop a couple of “thumbs down”, forum etiquette says you should at least give a reason for your “dislikes”.



Serenity it's OK to disagree with other members of the site.  Personally, I welcome it.  And since I'm trying to catch up to The Troll in the "negative ratings" (formerly known as "hate") ratings, I welcome downvotes on my posts as well.  But I think it's more useful to everyone if the "dissenter" comes up on the net to share his or her thoughts.  We all benefit from that discussion.


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## SaintKP (Feb 6, 2018)

While I agree with you guys on this, I can see why Serenity would downvote. Unlike food where we can go extremely long times on minimal amounts of food, water is quite literally our lifeblood. 3-4 days up to a week with no intake of it is the usual estimate right? But that's in ideal conditions in the best case scenario.

The weeping heart in me is frustrated and angry that we let politics get in the way of our own and other peoples well being. However, that 3lb mass in between my ears is echoing what has already been said: "play stupid games, win stupid prizes" and "you pay your money and you take your chances".

Personally, I think they're reaping what they sow right now and hopefully, the citizens can voice their opinions loudly enough to change their policy on Israel. It's anecdotal but one of my dad's friends who immigrated here from South Africa back in the early 90's is voicing the same thoughts here, while he loves South Africa he's frustrated because they're largely bringing all of their problems onto themselves. Whether it be crime, corruption, cronyism or in this instance running out of water.

I believe @Serenity downvoted because this is on the verge of turning into a humanitarian crisis and they're being punished for their beliefs in a way. Where is the justice in that? But this also reverts back to the original thought that South Africa has largely done this to themselves. Correct me if I'm wrong.


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## Gunz (Feb 6, 2018)

We're going to be bloody well killing each other over potable water someday...like when the population reaches 10-billion (2050) or 15-billion (2075). We'll see how it goes in SA.


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## Grunt (Feb 6, 2018)

There is plenty of water and the technology to get it if people would get their priorities straight in this world and quit eating Tide Pods and worrying about offending someone every time they take a breath the wrong way.


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## AWP (Feb 6, 2018)

If y'all are going to quote, allow me a third on the subject:

Second and third order effects....

It is great to make a decision, but stupid to ignore what comes next. Don't want to use Israeli tech? Cool. Did you reach out to other potential providers? ( How do the UAE and Saudi's function for example.) Make emotional decisions, expect failure.

(This is hilarious given the strong possibility SA collaborated with the Israelis on a nuclear weapon back in the day)


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## digrar (Feb 6, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> South Africa's capital, Cape Town,



South Africa doesn't have a Capital, Cape Town is the home of their Parliament, but the President and Cabinet run out of Pretoria, the Judicial arm of the country run out of Bloemfontein and their Constitutional Court is in Johannesburg. Probably as a result of how fractured the nation was when it started. 

With the weather systems that go through there, I'm surprised they're in a 3 year drought. On averages, they should get 150mm of rain before day zero, unsure what that would do for their dam levels, but fingers crossed they get it.


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## CQB (Feb 7, 2018)

Putting the Israel debate to one side, they did prepare, with desal plants etc. though the event they were planning for bit them sooner than they thought. The assessment is for May when shit will be Trumps.
Over here the state of Victoria had them installed amid controversy, but that seems a prudent move now.


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## Serenity (Feb 7, 2018)

@Marauder06 @Ooh-Rah @SaintKP

I found the original posts smug and lacking of empathy.  Whether it was intended or not, it momentarily pissed me off.  We’re talking about a city facing water shortages, and the oppression of the Palestinian people.

It’s unfortunate that Cape Town are in their current position, but it sounds to be more to do with poor planning, mismanagement and the lack of rain, and less about needing the Israelis to swoop in to save the day.  I was skeptical that only the Israelis experts and companies can help.  I googled and it appears there are other countries like France and Germany have offered to help.  And because we’ve experience our own severe droughts in Melbourne, I did a quick check on who was involved in building our desalination plant.  It was a consortium made up of French and Australian corporations.  The other shortlisted group that missed out did have affiliations with the Israeli Government.  From there I read this group have lost billions in business because of their ties with Israel.   So there are other options, especially if you find a supplier disagreeable.  

I don’t think the BDS is a worthless cause or a stupid game.  But thank you for bringing this to movement to my attention.  

I’m quite flaked out due to my current work load.  I didn’t want to reply originally, not out of disrespect, but more to do with not wanting to engage in lengthy online discussions atm.  Anyway, my eyes are burning, so I’m not reading whatever else was written further down tonight.  I like to support this site and interact, but at the moment, my commitment level is clicking a button.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 7, 2018)

Serenity said:


> I found the original posts smug and lacking of empathy. Whether it was intended or not, it momentarily pissed me off. We’re talking about a city facing water shortages, and the oppression of the Palestinian people.



Yesterday I would have wagered every penny I have that your response would be what it was. You have a good heart.

For what it’s worth, most of us on this board have good hearts. We are also jaded and skeptical.

Thanks for replying.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 7, 2018)

Serenity said:


> @Marauder06 @Ooh-Rah @SaintKP
> 
> I found the original posts smug and lacking of empathy.  Whether it was intended or not, it momentarily pissed me off.  We’re talking about a city facing water shortages, and the oppression of the Palestinian people.
> 
> ...




That's a thoughtful and well-written contrary opinion.  I hope to see more of that from you as appropriate.

As noted above, it's generally expected that downvotes, especially multiple ones, be accompanied by an explanation or rebuttal.  While anyone should feel free to downvote at will, they should also feel free "not" to downvote, or to hold off until they have a chance to offer a supporting opinion.  Otherwise, it can come across as passive-aggressive or antagonistic to just toss out a bunch of negative ratings and not follow it up with something substantive.

With that said:



digrar said:


> South Africa doesn't have a Capital...



I did not know that.  I did some additional digging after reading your post and you are correct; Cape Town is their "legislative capital," not the "national capital."  I will edit my post accordingly.  

Now, for the rest.

I'm not without empathy for South Africans facing a water shortage.  But I am totally unsympathetic.  This appears to be a problem totally of their own making.  Whether it is corruption, cronyism, poor planning, or a prioritization of international politics over domestic policy, South Africa has brought this upon themselves.  No sympathy for that.  Israel is a world leader in water purification (we use Israeli desalination tech in the US) and South Africa could have been the beneficiary as well, if they weren't focused on borrowing other peoples' problems and making them their own.  It seems apparent that South Africa's support of BDS is political grandstanding at the expense of their constituents' basic needs.  

As a movement, BDS is not stupid.  It's just cynical, and counter-productive.  It's a great way to put pressure on Israel in support of a larger move to accomplish via "lawfare" and economics what hasn't been accomplished by politics or force of arms:  the complete destruction of Israel.  BDS creates oodles of unintended consequences and is largely supported by people who either hate Israel or don't understand that the #1 oppressor of the Palestinians is... the Palestinians.


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## digrar (Feb 7, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> I did not know that.  I did some additional digging after reading your post and you are correct; Cape Town is their "legislative capital," not the "national capital."  I will edit my post accordingly.



I didn't know myself, I have always thought that Pretoria was the capital.


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## Polar Bear (Feb 7, 2018)

Amazing another shithole country made a bad decision. Oh well.


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## Gunz (Feb 8, 2018)

Send them all to District 9.


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## DC (Feb 8, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Send them all to District 9.



9 was destroyed but there is a new District 10

🦐Lives matter with butter.


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## Serenity (Feb 10, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> the #1 oppressor of the Palestinians is... the Palestinians.


In my opinion this is a blinkered statement; a one sided view that ignores any wrongdoing by the Israelis.  How the Israel government is treating the Palestinians is unethical and illegal.  I assume you know this and I’m just stating the obvious.  Or maybe you deny this, in which case, there’s no arguing with you.  I respect that you would have your reasons and that you come from a place of great experience, but I’ll continue to disagree nonetheless.

If the Israelis were offering to build a desalination plant for free, and to a schedule that would make a difference, then I could see an argument for the lack of pragmatism.  But really, the South African leadership involved just sound hopelessly unprepared, so it matters not who offers to sell them the technology they need.  They probably would have ended in the same place.  There’s nothing to be gained in adding hypocrisy to weaken their BDS position.  I feel the argument of Israeli tech is a pro-Israeli narrative that is unhelpful and the wrong focal point.

As for grandstanding, I do think it is grand that they are standing up for the Palestinians.  I admire their unwavering support.  And as a mediator who could have made more of a difference, the US have proven to be ineffective.  So I hope more support the movement or show their support in other ways.  I seriously doubt Israel will come to an end because they’re forced to negotiate reasonable and humane terms.

Ignoring the Palestinian-Israeli problems, the Cape Town water crisis should be focused on learning the lessons on what happens when water security is not prioritised.  

Anyway, thank you for taking the time to respond.


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## SpitfireV (Feb 10, 2018)

Unfortunately it's a local example of what South Africa is these days- unorganised and unmotivated.


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## CDG (Feb 10, 2018)

Serenity said:


> In my opinion this is a blinkered statement; a one sided view that ignores any wrongdoing by the Israelis.  How the Israel government is treating the Palestinians is unethical and illegal.  I assume you know this and I’m just stating the obvious.  Or maybe you deny this, in which case, there’s no arguing with you.  I respect that you would have your reasons and that you come from a place of great experience, but I’ll continue to disagree nonetheless.



LMAO.  Are you being serious?  How exactly would you characterize the way the Palestinians have treated the Israelis since 1948?


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## x SF med (Feb 10, 2018)

Serenity said:


> If the Israelis were offering to build a desalination plant for free, and to a schedule that would make a difference, then I could see an argument for the lack of pragmatism. But really, the South African leadership involved just sound hopelessly unprepared, so it matters not who offers to sell them the technology they need. They probably would have ended in the same place.



so, IF, a free desalination infrastructure, on an advanced time frame were given to SA, then it would have been a pragmatic resolution.  But, since the SA government was/is woefully unprepared, it would have made no difference, and thence not been pragmatic.  and, Had the SA government been prepared, and bought the infrastructure in time, they probably would have been in the same place. all according to your argument here.

The short answer here is....  no matter what they would have done, per your argument, would have mattered, and all of this is because they are anti-Israel/pro Palestinian.   Please expound further, how does the political leaning and a gift never offered, but a business proposition put forth, decry politically motivated genocide by Israel, for both Palestine and SA?

Poor management and planning by the SA government, lack of forethought, and international political concerns being more important than the citizens does not arouse sympathy in me...  they saw a water use/needs issue and the 'Palestinian' issue over-rode the needs of the people when technology and a workable remuneration were offered by Israel, but refused.  Then they didn't shop anywhere else.

Sympathy for the people, yes.  sympathy for the politics and lack of forethought by the SA government, notsomuch.


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## SaintKP (Feb 10, 2018)

With Jacob Zuma likely to resign in the coming days due to overwhelming and outspoken disdain for his rule, Cyril Ramaphosa and Zuma are working out the terms and conditions required for Zuma to step down (read promises, money, etc). Ramaphosa has historically been a hardline reformist and outspoken against corruption and cronyism in the SA government, so time will only tell whether or not Ramaphosa maintains his promises and actively works towards reforming and fixing the myriad of problems in SA or is full of hot air and does nothing to improve SA as a whole.


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## CQB (Feb 10, 2018)

The old political adage: when there is a plague in the city, the king must die. I hope & pray the next incumbent will be an improvement.


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## Serenity (Feb 10, 2018)

CDG said:


> LMAO.  Are you being serious?  How exactly would you characterize the way the Palestinians have treated the Israelis since 1948?


You’re demonstrating my point.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 10, 2018)

Serenity said:


> You’re demonstrating my point.



@Serenity -

I have already cautioned you more than once about engaging topics on this site unless you were prepared to back up your thoughts with more than:


Serenity said:


> You’re demonstrating my point.



You are expected to adhere to the same standards as everyone else.  In threads like this, that means backing up your statement with more than just a quip.  If you think that @CDG is wrong, tell him why.  What point is it of yours that he is demonstrating?


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## CDG (Feb 10, 2018)

Serenity said:


> You’re demonstrating my point.



Listen, enough is enough.  We are not here to coddle you, or to be whatever you think we should be as a community.  We have standards of conduct, and one of those standards is to be able to either intelligently defend your position, or stay quiet. This is a repeated issue with you, and I am tired of it.  You can post all the opinions you want, but you will back them up.  You will not continue to engage in this passive-aggressive bullshit.   If you cannot, or will not, adhere to that, then go away.  Do I make myself clear?


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## Serenity (Feb 10, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @Serenity -
> 
> I have already cautioned you more than once about engaging topics on this site unless you were prepared to back up your thoughts with more than:
> 
> ...


Ummm, Ooh-Rah, my point is that he is demonstrating my point, and that CDG’s response is clearly only interested in one side.  It seemed pointless to engage beyond what I did.  I probably should have taken my husband’s advice and ignored his comment.

Besides, what more could I respond without rehashing historical events that has been widely covered. I don’t hate on the Israelis, but I struggle to find it in my heart to see them as the current victims when given their own history, they now oversee the largest open air prison in the world.  I find this distressing that it’s allowed to continue, depressing that many don’t seem to care, and I do feel a sense of hopelessness for the Palestinians.  I’m not sympathetic of the Palestinians because of politics or ideology.  One of my closest friend is a Palestinian who has family and land in Gaza.  But I’m not going to put myself out there and make this personal.  

@CDG Your reply was mocking and offered nothing for me.  If the way I communicate bothers this community, then of course I’ll go away.  I can guarantee you that I don’t expect to be coddled.


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## Serenity (Feb 10, 2018)

x SF med said:


> so, IF, a free desalination infrastructure, on an advanced time frame were given to SA, then it would have been a pragmatic resolution.  But, since the SA government was/is woefully unprepared, it would have made no difference, and thence not been pragmatic.  and, Had the SA government been prepared, and bought the infrastructure in time, they probably would have been in the same place. all according to your argument here.
> 
> The short answer here is....  no matter what they would have done, per your argument, would have mattered, and all of this is because they are anti-Israel/pro Palestinian.   Please expound further, how does the political leaning and a gift never offered, but a business proposition put forth, decry politically motivated genocide by Israel, for both Palestine and SA?
> 
> ...


So I should respond to this too.

We all seem to be in agreement that they’re hopeless.  So fair enough there would be no sympathies for their leadership, but people should stop dragging in BDS as the primary reason for all their woes.   I think that’s misleading.  The issue is that they didn’t shop anywhere else, and that’s on them.  They failed their people by not doing their job.


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## CDG (Feb 10, 2018)

Serenity said:


> Ummm, Ooh-Rah, my point is that he is demonstrating my point, and that CDG’s response is clearly only interested in one side.  It seemed pointless to engage beyond what I did.  I probably should have taken my husband’s advice and ignored his comment.
> 
> Besides, what more could I respond without rehashing historical events that has been widely covered. I don’t hate on the Israelis, but I struggle to find it in my heart to see them as the current victims when given their own history, they now oversee the largest open air prison in the world.  I find this distressing that it’s allowed to continue, depressing that many don’t seem to care, and I do feel a sense of hopelessness for the Palestinians.  I’m not sympathetic of the Palestinians because of politics or ideology.  One of my closest friend is a Palestinian who has family and land in Gaza.  But I’m not going to put myself out there and make this personal.
> 
> @CDG Your reply was mocking and offered nothing for me.  If the way I communicate bothers this community, then of course I’ll go away.  I can guarantee you that I don’t expect to be coddled.



What my reply offered was a question. You claim the Israelis are oppressing the Palestinians. So, again, how would you characterize the way the Palestinians have treated the Israelis since 1948? Or take it back further. How have they treated the Jewish people since the 1920s?


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## x SF med (Feb 10, 2018)

Serenity said:


> So I should respond to this too.
> 
> We all seem to be in agreement that they’re hopeless.  So fair enough there would be no sympathies for their leadership, but people should stop dragging in BDS as the primary reason for all their woes.   I think that’s misleading.  The issue is that they didn’t shop anywhere else, and that’s on them.  They failed their people by not doing their job.



I said nothing about BDS, nor that as the cause of the woes in SA.  Do not put words in my mouth.  I dissected the meat of one of your arguments, not any of the other pieces of scrap hanging about.  If you agree with my assessment, fine, do not throw up a smokescreen of facts not presented.


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## SpongeBob*24 (Feb 11, 2018)

@Marauder06 interesting original post....as usual.  

I didn't know things were so bad down there in the land of CT.....


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## DC (Feb 12, 2018)

Maybe Elon Musk can figure a way to hydrate his home country.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 12, 2018)

@757 Thank you for sharing your experiences.


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## Gunz (Feb 12, 2018)

SA dug it's own hole.

As far as Israeli/Palestinian issues, blame can be leveled at both sides for decades of attacks and reprisals. However, the Syrians, Iraqis, Iranians and in the past the Egyptians, specifically, have sponsored terrorism against Israel in the name of the Palestinian Cause and have preached annihilation of the Jews since 1948. The Israelis have responded, admittedly, sometimes brutally. I am a supporter of Israel. It is, after all, an enlightened democracy, rich in arts, science and education. It's enemies, more often than not, adhere to a set of intolerant values and laws consecrated in 600 AD.


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## Marauder06 (Feb 12, 2018)

OK, a couple of things.

First of all, @Serenity, I retract my earlier statement encouraging you to speak up more.  Based on your behavior in this thread, I think it might be better for you to go back to lurking.

You took issue with my statement that the "#1 oppressor of the Palestinians is... the Palestinians."  That's totally fine.  But instead of offering a well-thought-out counterpoint or simply asking me to explain myself, which I would have been glad to do, you decided to make it personal, describing that part of my post as "blinkered."

Because "blinkered" is not a common term in the US, I looked it up to make sure I understood what it meant:



> blink·ered
> ˈbliNGkərd/
> _adjective_
> 
> ...



Accusing any site member of being small-minded or provincial simply because they disagree with you is not the way this site works.  Furthermore, making a statement along the lines of "agree with me or there's no arguing with you" is not how we do things here.  That is UNSAT.

I encourage you to re-consider your approach to engaging your fellow members of the site.  We have a high tolerance for opposing points of view, as stated and demonstrated many times over the years, but very little patience for ill-informed pot-stirrers who can't engage in critical thinking without denigrating the people with whom they are arguing.  I also think you could benefit from a little more situational awareness; in addition to fundamentally misunderstanding the backgrounds and knowledge levels of the people you're engaging with in this thread, I think you totally missed how other site members have been trying to help you out by getting this thread back on track and steering the conversation away from a discussion for which you are clearly ill-prepared and in which you are getting destroyed.

I'd take some time to point out the errors and fallacies in some of the other points you made in this thread, but 1) this is a thread about South Africa, not a detailed discussion of Israel / Palestine, and 2) It's hard for me to take you seriously in a discussion about Israel and Palestine when you didn't even know about BDS.  Notwithstanding your sample size of N=1 Palestinian, I don't think you have sufficient knowledge on this subject to engage meaningfully on this topic and to do it in a professional and non-personal manner.  Want to prove me wrong about that?  Regroup, consider what I said, and re-engage on the new Israel / Palestine thread.  

Speaking of which, this thread has veered sharply off of its original topic.  Based on the demonstrated level of interest in discussing issues related to Israel and the Palestinian Territories, I started a new thread on that subject.  We'll see how long it lasts.  

I'm closing this thread down because I think all of the useful discussion about the original topic has been had.


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