# SF Trying to Adjust Army Doctrine



## Viper1 (Jun 2, 2011)

http://www.military.com/news/article/May-2011/sf-trying-to-adjust-army-doctrine.html?ESRC=army-a.nl

Gentlemen and Ladies...your thoughts?


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## AWP (Jun 2, 2011)

> Sacolick is working to reestablish Special Operations Coordination Cells in every corps and division so commanders can better use their Green Berets for missions interacting with local security forces, instead of seeing them simply as assault forces for difficult takedowns.



Pre-9/11 our JRTC rotations featured one SOCCE attached to an IN BDE for just this purpose and it was one of the major items we were graded on. I think this kind of shows how far we've slipped/ changed in just a decade. While I think the General is on the right track, I question how far, if at all, he'll be able to go with this. The Army and SF will never get along. Water's wet, sky's blue, Army hates and distrusts SF.


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## Manolito (Jun 2, 2011)

Some will say my comments are from a rear view mirror and have no relevance in todays world and possibly they are right.
The road ahead is paved with history. The American people are sick of war and are blaming the high price of fuel on the war. The simple solution sold for a decade was we have to insure our supply of oil. Now the people are paying $70.00 for a single fill up on the average sedan. I believe this General is very intelligent and will work to find a very stable niche for his special forces. There is a big drawdown of forces coming. Funding for the military will see the same crisis NASA is having. The US has a history of what it is about to do. Start with Korea and Eisenhower and see how he cut the military budget to fund the feel good about yourself America programs. Look at the Peace corps and Uniceff and you can see the US wanted to help the poor and downtrodden so they started these programs. Carter was the result of these thoughts and you cans see his legacy.
I believe there will be another round of base closures and that is why we see the change in SECDEF.
There will be a very small amount of dollars for the mundane operations and this general wants to position himself and his group for that funding.
Just my thoughts.
Bill


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 2, 2011)

I am going to toss some thoughts out from the outside looking in, I might be a little off base but I am not SF either so that’s to be expected.

I had an opportunity to see an Iraqi Commando company that was trained and lead by SF in action during 2004. These dudes were well trained, well armed and highly effective, no easy task when working with a bunch of ICDC (what they were back then). I was pretty impressed and thought “damn those SF’ers built a shit hot unit out of monkeys”. Looking at our own ICDC monkeys that we were told to train, lead and assist, we could not have come close to building a unit like those commando’s.  Some of that was due to lack of equipment and training facilities, but mostly due to our own lack of respect towards the ICDC as a whole. It’s not a job for a bunch of 11B E4-E5’s who know jack shit about culture.

I have also seen many articles and videos of the work SF’ers do in Afghanistan, one that comes to mind is that recent thread where one Green Beret and maybe 4 or 5 monkeys assault a house. The monkeys get lit up and run out of the house leaving that one SF’er to deal with the problem by himself. And guess fucking what he fucking did just that, dealt with the problem “by himself”! I have a lot of ‘respect’ for the dudes who wear that silly hat and long tab, that’s a hard job and one not to be taken lightly by anyone.

So in those things that I have seen, I think SF is doing exactly what this General is saying they are not. Yeah I have been SF raids (pulling cordon) wondering why the fuck SF was doing the hit and why we were pulling security. I have been on a few missions where I wondered why the fuck is my Infantry Platoon doing this gay shit when we should be kicking some hajis ass. The same way I am sure a lot of SF dudes have done shit they wondered WTF. But at the end of the day, part of their core mission is kicking down doors as well (Direct Action/Counter Terrorism).

As to the other portions of the article regarding areas of responsibility and maintaining leadership in other geographical areas and what not, I have not a fucking clue. I would think they would want to focus on the current war we are in other then some other country we are not, but that’s way out of my lane and knowledge.

As for the conventional Army and SF not getting along, I see two main issues that will cause problems every time. One is the title “SPECIAL” Forces, conventional Army doesn’t and won’t ever like being the “non special”.  Not saying I don’t think SF is Special, b/c I do think they are, but again the total force concept doesn’t fit well with special anything. The second issue is those few SF dudes that actually like to tell commanders and SR NCO’s how “SPECIAL” they are, so special they don’t need to meet Army regulations or the FOB rules b/c that long tabber is not under that FOB CoC (same applies back CONUS). That shit got some SEAL team 2 guys kicked off our FOB back in 2004, along with some JTF dudes (have no idea who or what they were).


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## moobob (Jun 9, 2011)

Freefalling said:


> The Army and SF will never get along. Water's wet, sky's blue, Army hates and distrusts SF.



Yep. Good men have died in part to this bs and it still goes on.


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## LibraryLady (Jun 10, 2011)

JAB said:


> ... As to the other portions of the article regarding areas of responsibility and maintaining leadership in other geographical areas and what not, I have not a fucking clue. I would think they would want to focus on the current war we are in other then some other country we are not, but that’s way out of my lane and knowledge...


 
Because that is another part of the mission of SF.

LL


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## surgicalcric (Jun 10, 2011)

JAB said:


> ...As to the other portions of the article regarding areas of responsibility and maintaining leadership in other geographical areas and what not, I have not a fucking clue. I would think they would want to focus on the current war we are in other then some other country we are not...



I picked this select portion of your post out to comment on, not to address you or anything in particular that you said wrong but to clarify something which it seems many people do not understand about Special Forces.

Special Forces Groups are assigned geographical Areas Of Responsibility (AOR). 1st Group to Asia, 3rd Group Middle East and parts of Africa, 5th Group Middle East, 7th Group South/Central America, 10th Group Europe and Northern Africa, with 19th and 20th Groups being split by battalion among the previous 5 locations. This is further broken down within each group and in some cases to the company level. This division of responsibility allows for language and cultural awareness that would otherwise be unattainable and/or unsustainable. Terps are not the norm in every locations SF finds itself working and as such no only is the ability to speak the language vitally important but it is just just as important to also understand cultural norms amongst the people(s) an ODA is working so one doesn't lose rapport with the host nation forces over something many would considered trivial. Much of what we know about cultures has been learned from years spent in the same geographic places with that knowledge getting passed down from senior guys to the junior ones and they in turn pass it on when they take on the senior positions. Without this constant, gaps in information sneaks in and before you know it you end up with entire teams who have never been anywhere other than IRQ or Astan.

Furthermore, and to the point, SF is deployed to a lot of places around the world for a variety of reasons that isn't apparent to people on the outside looking in and sometimes even to the guys on the ground. Sometimes we are there to do FID (which is a scrimmage game for UW) or counter-narcotics training (CNT) and other times it is to be in a country in the event something which could threaten the stability of that region were to happen. At times it could be to get a point across to a Host Nation neighboring country without having to get a point across or to begin setting the stage in the event a UW campaign were to be needed...

Honestly, the present conflicts have tied down SF resources unnecessarily due to a mismanagement of the ODAs by higher HQ - generally the theater CDR who isn't quite sure what to do with us. In doing so we have lost a continued presence in quite a few countries thus making it difficult to rebuild a relationship when we cut and ran (in the HN eyes) because we had something else to do. This is apparent in our dealings in South America after 7th Group pulled much of the rotations from there during the 2003-2007 time period. It has happened to a lesser extend through portions of the African continent where AQ has set up shop in places they were denied access to in earlier years due to a USSF presence in neighboring countries. This alone has hurt US Foreign Policy and is reason to have SF teams in various countries constantly...

Sometimes we wish it was easy, but then again if it was anyone could/would do it.

That brings me to the only other item in your post which could use attention; the topic about SF guys and their self inflated "Specialness." By now and after THIS post there should be little doubt in anyones minds here about my thoughts on the matter...



> You are not special no matter what tab, beret, crest, ribbon, etc you have on your uniform; its the *mission* that's special. As such, you have no right rubbing your self-inflated specialness in the conventional or support guy's faces. If you do, I assure you it will come back to bite you square in your "special" ass when you find yourself asking one of them for something your "specialness" doesn't have, doesn't have access to, otherwise cant get, or doesn't know how to fix. (Pay issues, chow, vehicle repairs, ranges requests, MEDEVAC, QFR, med supplies, hescos and t-walls are just a few which come to mind.)



I have found the over whelming majority of those who flaunt their specialness are generally the ones who are only fit for doing DA/CT type missions where knowing ones operational environment and being able to operate within it isn't as vital to the completion of their mission as it would be in many of our other missions.  They are seeking recognition instead of letting their actions speak for them.

Crip


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## x SF med (Jun 11, 2011)

Crip-
Outstanding summation of the primary mission of SF... "To train, advise, organize and assist indiginous forces in their fights against oppressive governments."   DA/CT is part of the 'among other missions in which SF is fully capable..." portion of the Gabriel Demonstration.
Door kicking on a regular basis s/b Rangers/SEALs
Training Host Nation forces in real-life situations, living with them, and learning the local culture = SF.

There is a lot less glamour living in a hut for a year at a time in the middle of bumfuck nowhere 500 miles to the east of nothing training whatsitz and whositz to stay alive in the face of semi-organized bands of marauders calling themselves a government ...than it is to fast rope in to an objective from a gunship with lights and missiles and gatling guns, breaking shit and getting exfilled to a hot shower.

I need to get NDDs description to post here...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 11, 2011)

Great post Crip, makes a lot of sense.


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