# Rucking for A&S



## nsmithrpd (Jun 2, 2010)

Im training right now to attend the up coming MARSOC A&S. I have been told many times to focus my training on rucking. Im looking for advice or some knowledge on how to do this. Im an infantry man in the Marine Corps so I have been on so long hikes, 15-20miles and have never had a problem. But everyones got their little tricks and ideas of how to get better so lets see what ya got ?



Thank you in Advance, 

- D1-1


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 2, 2010)

I am going to venture that you didnt try the search button.  You may want to give that a go...I am positive we have discussed rucking here a couple times.

Crip


----------



## x SF med (Jun 2, 2010)

surgicalcric said:


> I am going to venture that you didnt try the search button. You may want to give that a go...I am positive we have discussed rucking here a couple times.
> 
> Crip


 
Um, maybe a couple of hundred...  but who's counting?  :doh:


----------



## nsmithrpd (Jun 2, 2010)

Mhhhh well then. Thank you for all the friendly advice. I was unaware of the weve already talked about that topic dont bring it up again clause. Ill adjust...


----------



## AWP (Jun 2, 2010)

nsmithrpd said:


> Mhhhh well then. Thank you for all the friendly advice. I was unaware of the weve already talked about that topic dont bring it up again clause. Ill adjust...



It helps the board believe it or not. Think of it like this: a new thread tries to reinvent the wheel. If you read the older threads you'll probably find what you are looking for. If not, that's when a user starts a new thread. It cuts down on the clutter and storage space on the server.


----------



## JimMCpog (Jun 2, 2010)

I know someone who was a non-select in MARSOC A&S this year. He believes it was due to land nav amongst other shortcomings. I don't know how common that is, but from reading here, land navigation is a killer in other service selection courses as well.


----------



## SoloKing (Jun 3, 2010)

JimMCpog is correct! Land Nav will kill most of a A&S class. If you can ruck, great. If you can land nav, great. Now put them both together and do it by yourself all day or all night, till some one says your done. Then get up the next day and do it again and again and again and............you get the point.
Good Luck!


----------



## nsmithrpd (Jun 3, 2010)

Awesome, thank you very much for the information. Im continually trying to improve in both of those areas.


D1-1


----------



## MooseKnuckle (Jun 7, 2010)

I just completed A&S. No I will not tell you what to expect!!!!

Follow the guide they gave you for PT it will prep you for the course. 

I find it funny that you are a grunt and have questions about rucking just put the pack on and start moving 70lbs or more. 

TAKE CARE OF YOUR FEET. I can't say this enough!!!!!! Tape them before you get blisters. There is a waterproof tape you can find at Walmart called NEXCARE 5.99 a roll get 3 of them you can thank me later. 

Use quality duck tape for your feet and get good boots Oakley or Rocky's are recommended.


----------



## SoloKing (Jun 8, 2010)

MooseKnuckle said:


> Use quality duck tape for your feet and get good boots Oakley or Rocky's are recommended.



Oakleys, really? I know different boots work for different people but Oakleys are shit made boots. I'v seen many a pair fall apart on first use in a shoot house. Rocky's are a better made boot, but they are not a hiking boot. In fact both boots are intended to be an assault boot and don't support heavy wieght well at all. Not because they are bad boots but because they were not designed too. 
Like I stated though, different boots work for different people, and it sounds like you made it through. Congradulations bro!


----------



## MooseKnuckle (Jun 8, 2010)

I know the oakleys suck mine fell apart after the 3 weeks. But everyone who had Oak's or Rocky's did not have any foot problems. 

I guess what I should have said was that he can purschase any boot made for the military as long as it is brown or tan. You must bring at least one pair of Marine Corps issued boots but you do not have to wear them. 

Thanks, I had a blast A&S will be a good time if you like that kind of stuff.


----------



## Jdub31 (Jun 24, 2010)

Just start with moderate weight and and distances. Start with 30lbs or so and 4-6 miles. If you have a gps forerunner use that to watch your speed and distance. Try to hit 10min a mile at first and work your way to 8 min a mile. By the end of your training aim for 45lbs 8 min a mile for 10-12 miles. It's more mental than anything.The way I think you get better at rucking is simply rucking your ass off. Ive known some people to throw on a 100lbs and ruck 12 miles trotting the whole way just to thrash themselves.I am by no means a pro at it, but it works for me. I'm sure there is better methods out there but that is what I have seen. Diet plays a big role in it as well , so factor that in as well.


----------



## 7point62 (Jun 28, 2010)

Jdub31 said:


> Just start with moderate weight and and distances. Start with 30lbs or so and 4-6 miles. If you have a gps forerunner use that to watch your speed and distance. Try to hit 10min a mile at first and work your way to 8 min a mile. By the end of your training aim for 45lbs 8 min a mile for 10-12 miles. It's more mental than anything.The way I think you get better at rucking is simply rucking your ass off. Ive known some people to throw on a 100lbs and ruck 12 miles trotting the whole way just to thrash themselves.I am by no means a pro at it, but it works for me. I'm sure there is better methods out there but that is what I have seen. Diet plays a big role in it as well , so factor that in as well.



Reps for this response.


----------



## G.Avrakotos (Jun 29, 2010)

I found that Garmont T8's work really well. I've also heard some really good things about Rocky's (regardless of what they were made to do). Like jdub said "its more mental than anything" willpower is probably the most important thing.  I will say though, a good set of boots will make it easier to keep it up.  Take the advice about taping up your feet with duct/riggors tape before they get blisters or hot spots. good luck.


----------



## Hitman2/3 (Jul 1, 2010)

Don't tape your damn feet with riggers tape. All that's going to happen is that on mile 3 or 4 the tape is going to start rolling and moving and fuck your feet up even more. 

First off get good boots that fit properly (I like original duties), then get good socks i.e. smart wool. Check out REI they've got a good selection. Finaly get some good sock liners, once again REI has a good selection. I'd go with the glove types that enclose all your toes in a seperate compartment. Make sure the socks are rated for heavy duty hiking. Then get out and build up your feet, legs, and back by rucking. Build up to the distance you need. Don't just think your going to knock out a 12 mile ruck on a whim and not get any blister or cramped up. 

If you do these things your feet will get conditioned and you will get little to no blisters. If you still manage to have a hot spot or two use Mole Skin to cover that spot only. Thats the simple down and dirty of it.


----------



## G.Avrakotos (Jul 2, 2010)

Hitman2/3 said:


> Don't tape your damn feet with riggers tape.


 
I've found that if you tape the spots of your feet up that usually get fucked up first, the tape reduces friction-hence, no blisters.  If im walking it wet terrain, having good socks as well as tape worked really well.  If im walking in rocky/dry/hot terrain where my feet are sweating a lot, the tape does tend to roll but I would rather retape every 6-8 miles than deal with a blister.  ....Just what I have found.  Also the smart wool socks work great.


----------



## 0699 (Jul 2, 2010)

G.Avrakotos said:


> I've found that if you tape the spots of your feet up that usually get fucked up first, the tape reduces friction-hence, no blisters.  If im walking it wet terrain, having good socks as well as tape worked really well.  If im walking in rocky/dry/hot terrain where my feet are sweating a lot, the tape does tend to roll but I would rather retape every 6-8 miles than deal with a blister.  ....Just what I have found.  Also the smart wool socks work great.


 
Yeah... I'm going to have to agree with Hitman on this.  I've never seen rigger's tape on feet come out well.  Good boots, good socks, and conditioning is the only way to go.

(Telling the story because it fits...) Many moons ago, when I was a young and good-looking gunnery sergeant, I had a Marine falling out of a hike at the three mile mark.  I get up to him (yeah, I was screwing around in formation, one of the bennies of being a gunny ) and give him the "WTF is your problem" speech.  Turns out someone had convinced him that the best way to prevent blisters (and this idiot was a corporal) was to rub your feet with vaseline, then put plastic bread bags over your feet inside your socks.  I have NEVER seen feet that messed up...  Moron...


----------



## JimMCpog (Jul 3, 2010)

http://www.injinji.com/

I'm not sure if these toesocks are just a gimmick, but I've worn them for the last year without getting any blisters. I haven't done much in the way of rucking in the last year, but I do run about 5 miles a day 6 days a week. The manufacturer claims that this design will wick moisture off the feet faster. You can find them in the Pacers running shoe stores and in large sporting goods outlets.


----------



## Hitman2/3 (Jul 3, 2010)

JimMCpog said:


> http://www.injinji.com/
> 
> I'm not sure if these toesocks are just a gimmick, but I've worn them for the last year without getting any blisters. I haven't done much in the way of rucking in the last year, but I do run about 5 miles a day 6 days a week. The manufacturer claims that this design will wick moisture off the feet faster. You can find them in the Pacers running shoe stores and in large sporting goods outlets.



Yeah those are the ones I had. I used them preping for for selection, during Sniper, and during selection. Those mixed with some smart wool and my original duties (with super feet insoles) and I only got one or two minor blisters. The poor soles at selection that didn't know any better tried regular issued boots with regular g.i. socks had feet that looked like hamburger by the third day. 

Mole skin is your friend and will last duct tape will screw you, possibly beyond repair in time to complete the course.


----------



## Chaos 4 (Jul 4, 2010)

Speaking of boots...I'm presently in the Farah Province with 5th ANGLICO and I am kicking a pair of Original SWAT Classics.  I've had them for about a year now and been patrolling in country with them for about 2 months.  Nothing but great things to say.  They are holding up very well.  The only thing I can't comment on is how well they would hold up in the mountains.  All of our movements thus far have been over open desert, with the occasional ridgeline.  The boots have very soft suede leather with no chemical treatment to harden them.  I'll let you know how they fair as the deployment progresses.  Anyone else have experience with these boots?


----------



## norcaldrifter (Aug 2, 2010)

Chaos 4 said:


> Speaking of boots...I'm presently in the Farah Province with 5th ANGLICO and I am kicking a pair of Original SWAT Classics.  I've had them for about a year now and been patrolling in country with them for about 2 months.  Nothing but great things to say.  They are holding up very well.  The only thing I can't comment on is how well they would hold up in the mountains.  All of our movements thus far have been over open desert, with the occasional ridgeline.  The boots have very soft suede leather with no chemical treatment to harden them.  I'll let you know how they fair as the deployment progresses.  Anyone else have experience with these boots?



I wore those boots in Iraq in 2007 lasted all year and are sitting in my wall locker as trophies. Great in the heat, not so good in the wet. They harden and form real fast when they dry even when broken in.


----------



## Jordan31 (Mar 24, 2012)

Make sure your boots are the correct fit as well. I've struggled with boot issues my entire enlistment and the two most important things I found through my research are:
1) Proper fit. Not just your basic size, but your width(and arch) as well. I didn't realize I have a wide foot until half way through a deployment when my buddy gave me his extra pair of boots because mine were thrashed. If you have the wrong size boot, you're going to plant your foot wrong in your stride to compensate for the pain that the incorrect size is causing, and a plethora of injuries will result. Blisters, stress fractures, nerve damage in your toes... you name it. Just think about how small the bones are in your feet, and how much stress and impact you hammer them with during a good ruck. Go to a Runner's Roost or equivalent running shoe store and have them do an analysis of your soles... pick their brains about what sole might be best for you.
2) Socks. Don't skimp on hiking socks. Everyone knows patrol socks are dispensable. I used 3 dollar pairs of Starter socks in Afghanistan and went through a pair every two or three days. Hiking socks range in price, but you get what you pay for. There are all sorts of different socks for different seasons and different conditions. Just do the research and experiment.


----------



## Salt USMC (Mar 24, 2012)

Chaos 4 said:


> Speaking of boots...I'm presently in the Farah Province with 5th ANGLICO and I am kicking a pair of Original SWAT Classics. I've had them for about a year now and been patrolling in country with them for about 2 months. Nothing but great things to say. They are holding up very well. The only thing I can't comment on is how well they would hold up in the mountains. All of our movements thus far have been over open desert, with the occasional ridgeline. The boots have very soft suede leather with no chemical treatment to harden them. I'll let you know how they fair as the deployment progresses. Anyone else have experience with these boots?


 
Absolutely great boots.  Did a 30 mile ruck challenge with them with about 2-4 days to break them in and I had nary a blister or hot spot.  Great, great boot and inexpensive!


----------



## Uncle Petey (Mar 28, 2012)

Some of you guys have some great imput on boots and socks. Join the Marsoc Mentoring program.  Put your thoughts on it for socks, boots, what not, be advised as you all probably know its not a G-2 site.  I mentioned the Garmonts T-8's ( they used to be called Recon's) on the rucking post. 

Recent attendee's question: you are now allowed to wear any military style boot, and have a pair of USMC regulations for formal stuff?


----------



## mac21 (Mar 29, 2012)

USMC regulations only. They checked all of ours at the beginning of the course.


----------



## Uncle Petey (Mar 29, 2012)

I just confirmed that as well. From the ASPOC staff:  boots you will use during the course have to have an EGA on them.  What you can also do is take your USMC boots to a cobbler have them change the soles for you.  My advice about finding the non-issue boots that you like still applies.  I would use them for most of my training, and alternate with the issue boots to make sure they are broken in for the Course.


----------



## USMC_707 (Apr 11, 2012)

When you "tape" your feet how about do I go doing that? Do I literally just wrap my entire foot in duct tape, sorry for the dumb questions. Ive just never been told that before. Ive been told to get the poly inner socks and then the wolf outer socks


----------



## Uncle Petey (Apr 11, 2012)

I would not "duct Tape " my feet  if I was you.  The only time I could see doing that would be for an emergency.  Somebody else covered it on another post. The tape will start rolling and "seaming."  Think about how hot your feet get in just socks and boot even on a chilly day, then add plastic and rubber, and adhesive,  fuck that.  Keep some Riggers tape handy for quick shoe repair (outside.)  You might cut a boot on a stump or a rock, get back to the bivouac and tape the boot up if you need too.    The purpose of most rucking training is to prepare your feet for the load, get the skin used to operating in a sock inside a boot.  Some of the hardest times on my feet was boot camp, new boots, new socks, and plenty of walking.  

Breaking in your boots is the biggest thing you can do to avoid the kind of scenario where you would need duct tape.  I once ran a 7.2 mile race in cammies and brand new Hi-tech boots.  Bad idea, the middle of my feet we're jacked up from the mid sole, I had huge deep ass blisters.  My example is just plain stupid, but we're Marines, and dumb stuff seems to take on a life of its own.

Good socks,  properly broken in boots, with the right inserts for your feet, and take good care of them. If you have to use tape, its only because shit has gone south and that is your last chance to survive lone enough to get selected.  Lets try to avoid total foot destruction, lets make that an SOP, and even maybe train smarter to avoid that type of thing.  I think we should even let the serious of the selection events be the "decider" versus a badly thought out boot purchase.


----------



## NeverSayDie (Apr 12, 2012)

While we're on boots, I got issued a set of Gortex Bellevilles (waterproof up to the ankle) through ROTC that after putting some gel inserts underneath the soles, fit so good that walking in them is like stepping on baby angel's asses. Legitimately the best pair of footwear I've ever worn so far. Unwilling to part with such a prize, I swapped them out with a cheaper pair before turning in my gear. I'd really like to take them to basic, but they've taken enough of a beating that they'd stand out in formation and catch a drill's eye. Plus Gortex, in June, at Sill... might not be worth the trouble. Should I just have my folks ship them to me at AIT or bring them along?


----------



## 03cpl (Apr 12, 2012)

I'm just gonna throw this out there...

REI has some pretty good Merino wool socks, look for their store brand. They seem a little pricey, but they're worth it. I prefer the Light hiker socks, but I have a few pairs of Expedition socks that I use occasionally as well. 

The funniest thing that happened at A&S was watching another guy slice open huge blisters on his feet then pour, literally pour, a bottle of Benzoin over the new holes in his feet. When I asked him what kinda socks he was wearing he said Thorlos, then he said that he always gets blisters and he just toughs it out... Don't be like that guy. If something isn't working try changing things! ;)


----------



## FeWolf (Jul 31, 2012)

Was reading the post, an old trick my Dad past down to me was knee high panty hose, laugh if you want, but they do work, I would  pair over my feet, and then a wear of wick socks, the nylon creates a less friction on the sock sliding on the surface of your skin, also wicks very fast, never had a blister. Also is you are area of leeches and tics, works.


----------



## SkrewzLoose (Jul 31, 2012)

FeWolf said:


> Was reading the post, an old trick my Dad past down to me was knee high panty hose, laugh if you want, but they do work, I would pair over my feet, and then a wear of wick socks, the nylon creates a less friction on the sock sliding on the surface of your skin, also wicks very fast, never had a blister. Also is you are area of leeches and tics, works.


Your posts are difficult to follow due to your poor grammar and spelling.  You might want to clean that up a bit.  Seems like you have some good advice.  
Just a thought.


----------



## AWP (Jul 31, 2012)

FeWolf said:


> Was reading the post, an old trick my Dad past down to me was knee high panty hose, laugh if you want, but they do work, I would pair over my feet, and then a wear of wick socks, the nylon creates a less friction on the sock sliding on the surface of your skin, also wicks very fast, never had a blister. Also is you are area of leeches and tics, works.


 
Would you do that in combat, carry panty hose with you to change out with your socks? If you won't do it when bullets are flying, why train to that standard?


----------



## FeWolf (Jul 31, 2012)

I suffer from this issue due to stroke, I will try more correct this in the future, I usually use a grammer/spell checker.


----------



## Gypsy (Jul 31, 2012)

FeWolf said:


> I suffer from this issue due to stroke, I will try more correct this in the future, I usually use a grammer/spell checker.


 
I can basically follow what you are saying, I'm sure most people can.  Don't worry about it and please continue to contribute as you can.


----------



## Uncle Petey (Jul 31, 2012)

It never fails that we light somebody up for something, only to find out that he has a genuine injury. Gentleman. That type of message is best sent via a personnel message. i.e: "Hey man whats up with your spelling?" "dude I had a stroke, got hit by an IED,etc."

Please remember that Tact is part of the of 14 leadership traits. I have found that the Marine Corps in general rapes and beat viciously the principle of Tact. From Privates up to SgtMaj's. Think about every stupid encounter you've had, earned or unearned. Was being an asshole necessary?


----------



## Crusader74 (Jul 31, 2012)

Okay Folks, This has been reported and is being dealt with by the Staff.. So we'll leave it there.

FYI, some one has an issue with a post, report it using the report function. There are Moderation Staff here to Mod..


----------



## FeWolf (Aug 1, 2012)

I have reread the topic again and again. and I find a few things that are confusing to myself. Adding duct tape, mole skin and such, lets me that the boot is not fitted correctly, I tend to buy alittle small, like ½ seize due to the material will expand from us and wear. Also the mention products above, decrease circulation of air and actually increase moisture, moisture will tear your feet apart, reduces heat transfer, and induces friction.
 Easy example is going outside your home on a humid day, you sweet like a pig.
  I remember the old jungle boots had a vented insert. While I do prefer the new US Army issued boots, I did add venting to both sides, the insole and outer.
 I got excellent advice from my father, grandfather and mentors in service. While each person is different, nothing ventured, nothing gain.


----------



## Uncle Petey (Aug 1, 2012)

Okay, sounds useful.


----------



## Ball N' Chain (Jul 28, 2017)

Hitman2/3 said:


> Yeah those are the ones I had. I used them preping for for selection, during Sniper, and during selection. Those mixed with some smart wool and my original duties (with super feet insoles) and I only got one or two minor blisters. The poor soles at selection that didn't know any better tried regular issued boots with regular g.i. socks had feet that looked like hamburger by the third day.
> 
> Mole skin is your friend and will last duct tape will screw you, possibly beyond repair in time to complete the course.



Did you use those socks as liners and put other socks over, or were those the main socks you wore?


----------



## Stanimal (Aug 2, 2017)

Guys, please....do not duct tape your feet.  Listen to Uncle Petey and Hitman2/3 on this one.  Do these things and you will be golden:
1. Get a pair of thin, polypropylene socks to wear next to the skin.  Under Armor makes quality socks, but there are many manufacturers out there.  These thin socks wick moisture away from the skin.
2. Get a pair of smartwool trekking socks to wear over the poly socks.  These are nice and thick and will glide over the poly socks, reducing heat and friction while protecting the skin.  If they're too bulky for your liking, at least go with smartwool hiking, which are a little bit thinner.
3. Bring both pairs of these socks with you when you go to try on boots.  That way you'll be able to get the proper size.  Boots should be USMC issued style, fairly light weight but sturdy, fit good in the ankle/heel cup, be wide enough to accomodate your foot without allowing excess movement, have about 1/2" of room at the toe, and provide ample arch support for your foot type.  I know that's a lot of parameters, but you'll thank yourself later for putting in the extra effort up front.
4. Break in your new boots and socks by performing small movements and working your way up.  Don't do a 12 miler out of the gate.  You'll probably just deadline your training program for the next two weeks while you recover from all the damage you did to your body.

Here's a true story about a guy who taped his feet at selection.  This guy, who will remain nameless, literally walked the soles of his feet off.  Countless hours of wet skin and countless more miles finally took their toll.  When he got back to the hooch, we all watched in horror as the tape was peeled off, taking most of the skin with it.  It smelled like death.  You could hear him screaming from the heads when the soap and water from the showers got into the wounds.  Now, he had no choice but to let his feet air out at night and then reapply more tape in the morning.  At the end of each day, he'd peel off the tape and start the process over.  Do you believe he made it to the end and was selected?  To this day I've never met anyone as hard as this guy.  99.9% of Marines in his shoes would've quit, or been medically dropped.  He kept it a secret from the medics for just that reason.  I'm not advocating hiding injuries.  I'm just telling you what happened.  So,....don't tape your feet.


----------



## Liarsenic44 (Aug 3, 2017)

Since this thread was revived and I couldn't find an answer elsewhere on the forums.

Is rucking/hiking in running shoes detrimental? I like to throw in a ruck every once in awhile to keep me used to moving weight across distance while I wait to get promoted again to apply for an A&S slot.


----------



## Stanimal (Aug 3, 2017)

Liarsenic44 said:


> Since this thread was revived and I couldn't find an answer elsewhere on the forums.
> 
> Is rucking/hiking in running shoes detrimental? I like to throw in a ruck every once in awhile to keep me used to moving weight across distance while I wait to get promoted again to apply for an A&S slot.



Running shoes are typically constructed of flexible, lightweight materials that allow good flexion on turn over.  This works well for most people so long as you are slick.  Adding weight may exceed the shoe's ability to rebound and/or absorb shock appropriately.  Additionally, boots often have a more rigid sole, or even a plastic or steel shank embedded mid-foot to provide arch support when moving over rugged terrain or conducting load bearing exercises.  This feature is not present in most running shoes.  If your feet are not conditioned to withstand the abuse of rucking, you may end up with "fallen arches", which results from stretched, damaged or inflamed tendons in the feet.


----------



## Ball N' Chain (Aug 4, 2017)

Thanks @Stanimal for the response, that was an extremely informative post, I appreciate it.


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 4, 2017)

Running shoes under load is generally suboptimal.  They just aren't built for it and they will wear out quick-like.  Now, low-cut hiking shoes are a different story, and may be worth a look.


----------



## Liarsenic44 (Aug 4, 2017)

Stanimal said:


> Running shoes are typically constructed of flexible, lightweight materials that allow good flexion on turn over.  This works well for most people so long as you are slick.  Adding weight may exceed the shoe's ability to rebound and/or absorb shock appropriately.  Additionally, boots often have a more rigid sole, or even a plastic or steel shank embedded mid-foot to provide arch support when moving over rugged terrain or conducting load bearing exercises.  This feature is not present in most running shoes.  If your feet are not conditioned to withstand the abuse of rucking, you may end up with "fallen arches", which results from stretched, damaged or inflamed tendons in the feet.



Can good quality insoles help prevent fallen arches? What would that feel like anyways?


----------



## Devildoc (Aug 4, 2017)

Insoles might help, likely won't hurt.  If you spend the $ to get some, spend good $ and go to someone who specializes in sports podiatry or a store that specializes in running shoes who know what types of insoles are best for a given foot structure.

Fallen arches would have pain in the arches and instep.  Heavier guys or wearing weight will exacerbate the issue, especially in soft-soled shoes like running shoes.


----------

