# Removing the Confederate Flag



## Dienekes (Jun 25, 2015)

I didn't think it was appropriate to bring this up in the Charleston shooting thread, but the shooter's relation to the flag has brought a lot of controversy.

For me, I think that no flag should be flown on federal/state property other than the Stars and Stripes and state flags, except for historical and memorial monuments. However, this incrementalism happened much quicker than usual, and there is now talk of bringing down certain Civil War monuments such as Robert E. Lee statues and the like by painting "Black Lives Matter" on them.

It is absolutely ridiculous to even think of bringing down these historical monuments, and this whole slogan painting movement on them sheds even more light on the (mis)education in history prevalent in schools and more specifically the Civil War. Removing memorials of history does not change the facts of what happened nor do the memorials support anything other than the lives given for a cause and the historical significance of what took place. I also am sorely disappointed in the PR moves that resulted in the removal of the Confederate Flag from large retail stores. I mean my high school's mascot is the rebels and the flag is the Confederate Flag so I grew up around it a lot, and it probably pisses me off more than others.

Thoughts on this?


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## AWP (Jun 26, 2015)

My dad and I have completed approximately 80% of my family tree. I'm aware of 8 ancestors who fought for the CSA, one of which who was a slave owner (three, according to an 1860 Slave Register). As a history guy in that environment I was raised on the "Heritage" angle and "Lost Cause" mythology.

I'm neither proud of nor embarrassed by the flag. I think if a state wants to fly it on state soil or make it a part of the state flag, more power to them. The people will decide. I'm acutely aware that my ancestors were traitors and paid a price for that, but so were the Founding Fathers. The difference is the FF were a part of the winning team and of course we'll all see them as virtuous and awesome even though they had some serious warts (I do like how their ownership of slaves is brushed off, but the South in general is vilified.)

I think one of the biggest problems I have with the whole deal is society's utter hypocrisy. Last week it was okay to make money off of the flags, but now they are horrible? Last week there was minimal debate about the flags (like all "hot" topics in America) but this week everyone's a history expert? Hypocrite douchebags.

Speaking of....these assholes who equate the flag to the swastika...holy shit, how can anyone with half a brain compare the Nazis and the CSA is beyond me. It would be hilarious if it wasn't so misguided and sad. While we're discussing flags, the Union Jack is on the Hawaiian flag, but didn't we bail on those guys? If we're going to rise up as a country and order the ban on the CSA's flag then why allow ANY nation minus the US to be represented on a state flag?

Defacing graves or monuments is nothing more than a hate crime and should be treated as such. That isn't a protest, it is a hate crime.

My boys in the South need some help too, if only because none of them know what the hell they are arguing for. It isn't even an official flag, but many half-wits treat it as such. If they wanted to truly honor the state's right angle they would, as many of their predecessors did, use the Bonnie Blue Flag as their symbol. From my POV, there's a lot of stupidity and ignorance on both sides of the fence.

One last problem is our knee-jerk, emotional reaction to situations. Everyone's losing their minds over a topic that most won't remember next week. Again, if this is a problem (and I've made the same argument about racism or gun violence in our country) then it deserves a seven day a week, intelligent dialogue leading to an answer rather than a bunch of whargarbl placating the masses. Hate the South all you want to, but at least they committed to a solution, even if it were wrong. Today we run our mouths and "protest" on Twitter before rushing off to rabble rabble over the next problem du jour. Assholes. Keep solving the problem until it stays solved or don't bother in the first place.

Keep the flag and maintain the status quo until a resolution is enacted. Anything else is stupid and counter to what those men died for in the 1770's and 1860's.


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## HOLLiS (Jun 26, 2015)

He who controls the Mob,  rules Rome. 



PS ask the Native Americans about the Union Colors.   Who wants history when we can rewrite it?


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## Red-Dot (Jun 26, 2015)

Here's a novel idea....how about concentrating all that attention on, I don't know, maybe destroying ISIS or getting the national debt down.

When assclowns elect assclowns, this is what you get.


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## Brill (Jun 26, 2015)

HOLLiS said:


> PS ask the Native Americans about the Union Colors.



Absolutely.  Estimated 50,000 indians displaced in the early/mid 19th century.


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## AWP (Jun 26, 2015)

Of course, another small "problem" the US Gov't has with Confederate symbols garners some attention, but is usually ignored (thankfully) because of "whargarbl racist flag."

http://edition.cnn.com/2015/06/24/politics/confederate-army-bases-names/


This whole issue pisses me off, not as a Southerner, but as an American because we have MUCH more important problems to address.


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## Florida173 (Jun 26, 2015)

I think people truly believe that only the South owned slaves. I'd really like to see how we characterized the components of what led up to the Civil War in some of the history books from 50-100 years ago. I'm sure none of them over simplified it to saying it was just about slavery, or at least explain that it was more about the control and economics of slavery... Not the freeing of slaves.  That only happened later with Lincoln's war powers on the southern states, not in the North.


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## The Accountant (Jun 26, 2015)

The most ridiculous thing to me is this. That the people who not long ago were saying "its just a piece of cloth, its not about what it symbolizes" when referring to people protesting by stepping on the U.S. flag. Yet, when it comes to the Confederate flag those same individuals seem to see it as a symbol of racism/hate and not "just a piece of cloth". How can one be a piece of cloth but not the other?


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## Florida173 (Jun 26, 2015)

K9Quest said:


> The most ridiculous thing to me is this. That the people who not long ago were saying "its just a piece of cloth, its not about what it symbolizes" when referring to people protesting by stepping on the U.S. flag. Yet, when it comes to the Confederate flag those same individuals seem to see it as a symbol of racism/hate and not "just a piece of cloth". How can one be a piece of cloth but not the other?


 
I hate all the stuff about Amazon and Apple taking down all things related.. I would be pissed if I created a Civil War app for iOS and had it taken down by ignorant things like this.


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## Florida173 (Jun 26, 2015)

One of my favorite YouTube peeps.


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## Red-Dot (Jun 26, 2015)

The ironic thing is this. The Dixiecrats (democrats for you of those not in the know, remember Strom Thurmond) are the very party who pushed for segregation and Jim Crow. It was the Republican party (yes the party of Lincoln) who opposed slavery, segregation and who pushed to dissolve that institution. Today the Democrats are shouting that there is inequality and spearheading the whole take down the flag campaign. When in reality, THEY are the ones who started the whole MESS. 

But the low information crowd just does not get it or is too lazy to care.  What was that phrase? WAKE UP AMERICA.


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## Red-Dot (Jun 26, 2015)

Florida173 said:


> I think people truly believe that only the South owned slaves. I'd really like to see how we characterized the components of what led up to the Civil War in some of the history books from 50-100 years ago. I'm sure none of them over simplified it to saying it was just about slavery, or at least explain that it was more about the control and economics of slavery... Not the freeing of slaves.  That only happened later with Lincoln's war powers on the southern states, not in the North.



This was one of the main components that led our country down that road.  I would wager most of the low information crowd has no idea.

*The Tariff of 1828Edit*
The Tariff of 1828, enacted on May 19, 1828, was a protective tariff passed by the U.S. Congress. It was the highest tariff in U.S. peacetime history up to that point, enacting a 62% tax on 92% of all imported goods. The goal of the tariff was to protect northern U.S. industries by placing a tax on low-priced imported goods, which had been driving northern industries out of business. Nevertheless, the South strongly resisted the Tariff of 1828 for several reasons. Firstly, they were forced to pay higher prices on goods that the region did not produce, and secondly, the reduced importation of British goods made it difficult for the British to pay for cotton imported from the South. In essence, the South was simultaneously forced to pay more for goods and to face reduced income from sales of raw materials.[2] These unfortunate results caused many in the South to refer to the Tariff of 1828 as the Tariff of Abominations.

Current Vice-President John C. Calhoun opposed the tariff and anonymously authored a pamphlet called the _South Carolina Exposition and Protest_, in when 1828, since many figured the tariff would be reduced.[3]


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## nobodythank you (Jun 26, 2015)

Red-Dot said:


> The ironic thing is this. The Dixiecrats (democrats for you of those not in the know, remember Strom Thurmond) are the very party who pushed for segregation and Jim Crow. It was the Republican party (yes the party of Lincoln) who opposed slavery, segregation and who pushed to dissolve that institution. Today the Democrats are shouting that there is inequality and spearheading the whole take down the flag campaign. When in reality, THEY are the ones who started the whole MESS.
> 
> But the low information crowd just does not get it or is too lazy to care.  What was that phrase? WAKE UP AMERICA.


Great argument, but every time it comes up in a discussion, the typical response is "don't you know that the two parties switched ideological view points sides?" or something to that effect. It is funny how people choose to interpret history when it suits them.


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## Red-Dot (Jun 26, 2015)

ke4gde said:


> Great argument, but every time it comes up in a discussion, the typical response is "don't you know that the two parties switched ideological view points sides?" or something to that effect. It is funny how people choose to interpret history when it suits them.



When was the great switch?


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## nobodythank you (Jun 26, 2015)

Red-Dot said:


> When was the great switch?


Allegedly the switch occurred in the 60's during the Civil Rights Movement when most of the Dixiecrats were supposed to be primarily Conservative (read racist), and the Republicans were supposed to be primarily liberal. In order to hold up their specific ideology, the Dixiecrats were supposed to have defected to the Republican party. Ergo that is how the Republican party is filled with racists and church goers. Those Democrats that originally supported those racist policies were supposed to have left the party and thereby absolved the great Liberal church. 

Not that I give a rat's ass about either shit stirring party, I am just sharing a common argument I hear when trying to enlighten the uninformed masses as to their historical roots.


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## Red-Dot (Jun 26, 2015)

The Clinton's seem to have forgotten that. I don't believe a switch ever occured, it was only manipulated to suit what the uninformed masses wanted to hear...


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## HOLLiS (Jun 29, 2015)

A good article on the "Flag".

http://m.snopes.com/2015/06/28/confederate-flag-history/


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## Wonderly123 (Jun 29, 2015)

I love the authors view point on the flag in this write up.

http://sofrep.com/41882/news-roundup-ban-column-scotuss-big-week-navy-vet-beating-video/


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## Kraut783 (Jun 29, 2015)

In Columbia,SC this week...while walking to dinner there were about 10 trucks with confederate flags driving around the capital....small demonstration there....such a small area, it was a little surreal.


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## pardus (Jun 29, 2015)

__ https://www.facebook.com/video.php?v=898984616835212


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## Red-Dot (Jun 30, 2015)

This country has gone super strength retarded.


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## Etype (Jun 30, 2015)

With the talk of Amazon et al. getting rid of things including the Confederate Flag, I'm wondering how long it will be until WWII movies are targeted.

Come on folks, we can't be showing all of this Nazi hate.


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## Florida173 (Jun 30, 2015)

Etype said:


> With the talk of Amazon et al. getting rid of things including the Confederate Flag, I'm wondering how long it will be until WWII movies are targeted.
> 
> Come on folks, we can't be showing all of this Nazi hate.


 
Nazi hate was more directed towards the jews and I think liberals are still OK with that.  Maybe the way that the Japanese are represented being similar to that of bugs bunny ww2 era cartoons..

:wall:


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## AWP (Jun 30, 2015)

In all honesty, what do we do when everything offends everyone, when everyone is offended by something out there and we "must" act to remove the offensive subject? Our society's becoming an auto-immune disorder.


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## Florida173 (Jun 30, 2015)

I was always taught that I have a right to be offended. Creates good coping skills.. WTF happened with our society?


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## Queeg (Jun 30, 2015)

Etype said:


> With the talk of Amazon et al. getting rid of things including the Confederate Flag, I'm wondering how long it will be until WWII movies are targeted.
> 
> Come on folks, we can't be showing all of this Nazi hate.


 
I don't think many of us could have imagined the level of social justice lunacy infecting the national discourse.  It doesn't sound too farfetched for plastic modellers to maybe start hoarding decals and such in preparation for the coming purge.


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## Etype (Jun 30, 2015)

You're not allowed to offend me, and you're not allowed to pay me less than $12 an hour.


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## Red-Dot (Jun 30, 2015)

I have to think (and maybe I'm being an optimist) that America is reaching a critical mass on stupidity. Time for people to get real. How about this protesting Americans? Go strap on a kevlar, ruck up, carry 100 lbs of shit on your back, hump a M-4 and go hang out in Iraq or A-stan while getting shot at, mortared and rocketed for awhile. There would be a lot less bullshit in this country.


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## Etype (Jul 1, 2015)

Red-Dot said:


> I have to think (and maybe I'm being an optimist) that America is reaching a critical mass on stupidity. Time for people to get real. How about this protesting Americans? Go strap on a kevlar, ruck up, carry 100 lbs of shit on your back, hump a M-4 and go hang out in Iraq or A-stan while getting shot at, mortared and rocketed for awhile. There would be a lot less bullshit in this country.


I would assume that nearly every generation since the revolution thought we were reaching that point, but unfortunately,  I don't think that's the case.

The sad truth is, the overwhelming majority doesn't really give a shit about what you or anyone else did in Afghanistan or Iraq.


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## Red-Dot (Jul 1, 2015)

Etype said:


> I would assume that nearly every generation since the revolution thought we were reaching that point, but unfortunately,  I don't think that's the case.
> 
> The sad truth is, the overwhelming majority doesn't really give a shit about what you or anyone else did in Afghanistan or Iraq.



Sad, but unfortunately  true. It is hard for me to register, that train of thought.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 3, 2015)

Eric July gets it....at least on that topic.


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## Etype (Jul 5, 2015)

Red-Dot said:


> Sad, but unfortunately  true. It is hard for me to register, that train of thought.


It's easier for me to understand the Taliban or ISIS. They fiercely believe in something and are willing to do anything to realize it.

Then there are Americans would rather watch the E Network or cry over orphans in Darfur than acknowledge any problems they may be facing in their own country.


ETA-
When they do notice something is askew at home, they are duped by political profiteers and race baiters into thinking something like the Confederate Flag is to blame.


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