# Pistol Marksmanship



## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 31, 2009)

> This is to help out some of the younger or less experienced shooters, just my opinions and teachings. Feel free to pick it apart or add to it. I figured it would be a good thing for some of the younger guys we have on the site and would give some of the old guys a refresher.



_Pistol marksmanship is simple in the sense that it can be summed up into four key fundamentals, however it can be very difficult to grasp and/or put together to achieve the over all goal in shooting that the shooter has set. Understanding that goal setting is the key to improvement; shooters must understand how to set proper goals._

Basic level shooter goal: Consistency in grouping at a distance of 25yards, maintaining all shots fired on a 12 inch white paper plate, using slow fire and call your shot drill’s.

Fundamentals of marksmanship: 

*Position (Grip & Stance)*

There are several different positions, stances and grips that can be affiliated with shooting a pistol. However some are simply better then others so we won’t go into details about the other types. We will concentrate on what you should be doing to deliver an accurate shot. 

Starting with a one handed grip, take the firing hand and form a salute, separate the thumb from the salute. The meaty “web” portion between the thumb and index finger should be seated all the way into the top of the back strap. Wrap the lower three fingers around the grip panels and place the index finger down “inline” with the side of the pistol. Then allow the thumb to naturally rest on the grip panel (preferably inline with the slide).







For a two-handed grip take the non-firing hand and make a salute, separating the thumb from the salute. Take the non-firing hand thumb and palm and slide it into the open area of the grip panel. Rest the non-firing hand “thumb” directly under the firing hand thumb (pointing inline with the slide “towards the target”). Wrap the remaining fingers around the firing hand fingers.






Now to present the pistol, regardless of a one-handed or two-handed grip, lock the arm(s) completely out at a full extension. Raise the pistol until the sights are in line with your vision. If the sights are not already aligned, relax your arm and slightly adjust (right or left) the way the pistol is sitting in your grip. Continue to do this until the sights are aligned every time you bring the pistol up.





Stance is based upon many things and in most cases becomes environment dependent; a common practice is to ensure that your stance is aggressive and athletic (commonly referred to a fighters or boxers stance). Now foot placement (non firing foot forward or even across) is not as important as maintaining an aggressive poster. You want you knees to be slightly bent, you want to slightly lean into the pistol at the hips. This will allow you to maintain the position longer and will allow you to absorb recoil.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 31, 2009)

*Aiming (Sight Alignment)*

Sight alignment and aiming can very from pistol to pistol. Depending on the type of sights the pistol has and how the sights have been adjusted or milled to the pistol (some sights are adjusted or milled by the owners to get the desired point of aim/ point of impact). Because this is common, I will only go into common factory sights (front sight post and rear sight notch).

The front sight post is at the business end of the pistol, meaning it normally sits on top of the slide, closest to the muzzle of the pistol. The rear sight notch normally sits on top of the slide closest to the back of the pistol. 

To align the sights you will adjust the pistol grip until the front sight is as even height with the rear sight notch and even amount of (open space or light) distance on both sides of the front sight.

Once the sights are aligned, the focus point is the top center of the front sight post. Since the human eye can only focus on one thing at a time, the front sight is the preferred focus point due to it being the aiming device closest to the end of the muzzle (as the bullet leaves the muzzle, the front sight is the last ability to steer the bullet). 

Now while focused on the top center of the front sight post, you want to point it towards the center of the target (it is important to remember that the focus must remain on the front sight and not shift to the target). The human eye automatically points to things to the center of everything we look at. This is important, because you have to trust this is happening and avoid the temptation to shift focus to the target (it is common to have low impacts on the target when the focus is shifted to the target instead of the front sight).

After we have aligned the sights and achieved the proper alignment of the sight to the target, you now need to check your “Natural Point of Aim” (NPA). NPA is when our body is naturally aligning the sights in your grip, your presentation to the target, and the sights onto the target. In order to find NPA you should go through all the steps of alignment and prior to firing a shot, close both eyes and relax, open your eyes and see if you are still pointed in the same place on the target. If you are not, check to ensure that the sights are aligned when you point the pistol and if they are not adjust your grip so that they are. Then check to make sure your body is allowing you to naturally point at the target. If you are to the left or right of the target, use your feet and adjust your lower body (stance) to properly align the sight to the target. Again close your eyes and relax, reopen your eyes, and again check to see if you are pointing in the proper area of the target.

It is important to know that the sights will wobble in the target area, this is okay and common. Do not try to stop or fight the wobble, allow it to take place. The amount of wobble you have will diminish over time, once your body has become accustom to holding the pistol.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 31, 2009)

*Trigger Control (Press & Hold)*

Trigger control is commonly referred to as “trigger squeeze” that is absolutely not what it is. Trigger control is the movement of the trigger to discharge the pistol, with out disrupting the sight alignment or “aiming”. Then follow through is holding the trigger to the rear as the pistol is discharging the round. 

The placement of the trigger finger is important, depending on the size of your hand and the strength level in your hand. In most cases the trigger finger should be placed across the trigger between the tip of the finger and the first joint in the finger. The pad between the tip and joint will rest across the trigger. The trigger finger should not rest along the side of the pistol frame when across the trigger. You should be able to see a separation of the middle knuckle from the pistol frame.

Once the trigger finger is properly placed across the trigger and not in contact to the pistol frame, the movement of the trigger is the next step. Again this is commonly referred to as “squeezing the trigger” but remember, that is not what you are going to do. You are going to start “pressing the trigger to the rear” increasing the amount of pressure until the pistol discharges. Once the pistol has discharged, you will maintain the pressure on the trigger until the recoil has settled and the sights have realigned to the target. Then you will release the pressure slowly, until you hear or feel a click from the trigger. Then you will again add pressure to the trigger (while the sights are aligned on the target) until the pistol discharges again. Again you will add pressure and once the pistol discharges you will maintain the pressure until the recoil has settled and the sights are aligned. This is called pressing and holding the trigger or commonly known as squeezing the trigger and following through with the shot.  Again we are not squeezing, we are pressing and holding.

It is important to practice dry firing with your trigger control to insure that your trigger finger is properly placed on the trigger and that it is not interrupting the grip of the pistol. A common problem is that the trigger finger is interrupting the grip of the pistol and will cause the sights to move while pressing the trigger. If this is taking place, adjust the trigger finger until the movement in the sights has stopped.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 31, 2009)

*Breathing Control (Natural & Forced)*

Breathing is as important to precision shooting as it is to tactical shooting. The first thing to diminish on the human body from a lack of oxygen is the eyes. This can take place from someone holding his or her breath for as short as 3 to 5 seconds. Being that our eyes are incredibly important to accurately shooting the pistol, you must ensure to keep them charged with oxygen. In other words, do not hold your breath for too long and be sure to inhale a breath of air every chance you get.

A natural breath control is the natural pause in the breathing cycle that takes places on the exhale. As you exhale, your body will naturally pause before taking another breath in. I believe this to be the best time to fire the shot because your body is at a natural rest and breathing pause and it is consistent every time. Some will say to break the shot with half a breath in or out and then to pause, but I find it very hard to maintain a consistency in doing so.

Forced breathing pause is where you simply stop inhaling or exhaling. You are telling your lungs to stop what they are doing and holding it. I find that a forced pause is more common in pistol shooting and more so in tactical or practical shooting. So I practice a forced pause while shooting in order to build a solid consistency. I have found that the best way to do a forced pause is again to exhale all the air out of your lungs and fire the shot, and then inhale/ exhale and fire again. I found that I can maintain a forced pause using this technique for 3 to 5 seconds and this allows me to make several shots prior to doing another inhale/ exhale.


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## 8'Duece (Aug 31, 2009)

Relax your shoulders a bit more Bro' ;)


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## arizonaguide (Aug 31, 2009)

Great post, J. Lotta work went into it. :cool: Nicely done.
And NICE XDm.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 31, 2009)

Thanks ;)

Here is a video by Kyle Lamb regarding point shooting and why its dumb! 

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s3nGbN7RxpI[/ame]

I figure it's better to hear it from a guy at the level of god with a gun... ;)


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## zushwa (Aug 31, 2009)

I would say your support hand needs some better positioning.  The support hand plays a vital role in recoil management, which in turn plays a role in follow through and multiple shots.  Rotating your support hand forward until the ligaments are locked gives you a fixed position to return to after a shot has been fired.  With your wrist "loose" you are playing a guessing game as to where the gun will settle after a shot.  With approximately 60-70 percent of your recoil management coming from your support hand I'd say it's an important detail.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 31, 2009)

zushwa said:


> I would say your support hand needs some better positioning.  The support hand plays a vital role in recoil management, which in turn plays a role in follow through and multiple shots.  Rotating your support hand forward until the ligaments are locked gives you a fixed position to return to after a shot has been fired.  *With your wrist "loose"* you are playing a guessing game as to where the gun will settle after a shot.  With *approximately 60-70 percent of your recoil management coming from your support hand* I'd say it's an important detail.



I am going to have to disagree with you; the “support hand” shares in absorbing recoil but should not be taking the blunt of the recoil. The recoil should be shared between both arms. I mean think about what you are saying; the recoil is going to go into my support arm more so then my firing side. That would cause you to receive more recoil to one side then the other, causing your follow through to shift to that side. :uhh:

You want your recoil to be straight up and your follow through straight back down to the point of aim when firing rapid shots, not bouncing off of the target to the left or right due to on even recoil in the grip/ extension. 

As for locking the wrist ligaments that will be shooter dependent. Not everyone can shoot that way due genetic structure and/ or disabilities. However you are correct that locking the wrist as far out as possible will give you better consistency. My wrist is as forward as it will go and fully locked, however my thumb is resting higher due to comfort and my consistency of my grip.


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## zushwa (Aug 31, 2009)

That's fine, you can disagree.  Your grip and recoil management being dominant in the support hand won't cause any shift to one side.  You have a way, I would use another.  Rock on dude.


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## Mac_NZ (Aug 31, 2009)

I only let out half a breath on the exhale but thats just the way I was taught Bro.  I lock my arms like you do and rotate the elbows out to tighten up.

What are your thoughts on trigger programming?  Our versions of the Kyle Lambs taught me to shoot pistol and they had us pair up.  The firer would pass the pistol to the rear/side and the buddy would either chamber a round and decock or rack the slide and decock on an empty chamber then pass it forward and the firer would take aim and fire.  Sometimes it went click sometimes it went bang.  They said it was to teach us to stop anticipating the recoil and concentrate more on the trigger pull and sight picture.  Is it a common practice for you guys as well?

P.S.  You have Yeti arms...


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## zushwa (Aug 31, 2009)

Mac_NZ said:


> I only let out half a breath on the exhale but thats just the way I was taught Bro.  I lock my arms like you do and rotate the elbows out to tighten up.
> 
> What are your thoughts on trigger programming?  Our versions of the Kyle Lambs taught me to shoot pistol and they had us pair up.  The firer would pass the pistol to the rear/side and the buddy would either chamber a round and decock or rack the slide and decock on an empty chamber then pass it forward and the firer would take aim and fire.  Sometimes it went click sometimes it went bang.  They said it was to teach us to stop anticipating the recoil and concentrate more on the trigger pull and sight picture.  Is it a common practice for you guys as well?
> 
> P.S.  You have Yeti arms...



It's called the ball and dummy drill and it (and it's different iterations) is a fantastic training tool.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 31, 2009)

zushwa said:


> That's fine, you can disagree.  Your grip and recoil management being dominant in the support hand won't cause any shift to one side.  You have a way, I would use another.  Rock on dude.



I am wondering as to how you are absorbing 60 to 70% of the recoil in the non-firing hand? The recoil of the pistol, being the backwards motion of the pistol met with the resistance of the grip/ extension of the arms.

Being that the firing hand is the hand covering the back strap of the pistol and thus causing the main resistance to the pistol during recoil.

Are you by chance meaning “driving” the pistol with the non-firing hand during recoil? Like as if you are shooting multiple targets for speed, such as a bank of steel plates?

Thanks in advance “dude”.



Mac_NZ said:


> I only let out half a breath on the exhale but that’s just the way I was taught Bro.  I lock my arms like you do and rotate the elbows out to tighten up.
> 
> What are your thoughts on trigger programming?  Our versions of the Kyle Lambs taught me to shoot pistol and they had us pair up.  The firer would pass the pistol to the rear/side and the buddy would either chamber a round and decock or rack the slide and decock on an empty chamber then pass it forward and the firer would take aim and fire.  Sometimes it went click sometimes it went bang.  They said it was to teach us to stop anticipating the recoil and concentrate more on the trigger pull and sight picture.  Is it a common practice for you guys as well?
> 
> P.S.  You have Yeti arms...



I love ball and dummy and use it on my self as well as in my classes; it is great for working out anticipations of recoil problems. The thing that makes it most affective is stopping the shooter when he/ she has an anticipation of recoil, having them dry fire it out before chambering another round. It’s a pain in the ass with pistols that do not have an external hammer. However it can still be done.

Another great drill is calling the shot; using a 25-yard bulls eye target or a paper plate. Have the shooter call out to the coach where he last saw the front sight, when the shooter broke the shot, and then have the coach confirm that is where the shot actually broke. This helps on getting the shooter to maintain focus on the front sight and forces them to call the placement of that shot.

I will post some of my drills up later this afternoon…


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## HOLLiS (Aug 31, 2009)

When I am shooting from a rest, I am a squeeze shooter, other wise I am a snap shooter. I don't know if they teach that anymore.  

Great thread and good read.  

I might have missed the discussion on POA and POI when in reference to sight picture.   Target shooting POA seems best, combat shooting POI, seems that way to me.


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## SAWMAN (Aug 31, 2009)

Good post for basics. Good on ya for the work. It should be helpful to quite a few readers here. Rep!

I have to say, the support hand rotated further forward does help. It's not so much for taking up more of the recoil rearward, but for helping keep the muzzle down for continuing shots, as well as keeping the alignment left and right, offsetting trigger input. That's how I was taught by John Shaw, Jerry Barnhart and a few others. If the support hand is rotated as far forward as it will go, it's a natural lock to keep the weapon right on target. It's a stronger grip than when it's rotated back a bit, due to the geometric angle and the tendons being locked in place. It's best demonstrated in quicker follow up shots and will become evident in rapid shot drills with tight time restrictions.

Now, here's a real kicker. Back when we went from the thumb over grip to the thumbs forward grip, it was because that was determined to be the new latest and greatest grip. The reasoning was that it allowed greater surface contact between the hands and the weapon. Made sense to me. This was obviously supposed to provide a more stable grip. It was also good for providing a natural pointing instinct with the thumbs, as if to say, "Hey you!" So, we've been shooting that way since the late 80's for those reasons. 

However, one martial arts guy (who I won't name) pointed out that if you take a pistol and grab it with the thumbs forward grip and have someone else severely shake the weapon, it's much LESS stable that if you grip the weapon with the thumb over grip. I found him to be correct. :eek: Hmmmm...

I don't mean to screw up anybody's homeostasis, just sharing some scoop. I'll have to admit, even though I saw his logic, I haven't yet switched back to the thumb over and I'm not sure I will. I'll burn a few more cases of ammo testing back and forth to see which I ultimately settle on. 

Do what you like. I WOULD suggest just grabbing a red gun and testing the grips like I described, just so you know. Interesting development.


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## HOLLiS (Aug 31, 2009)

Sawman,  Maybe that has to do with different shooting styles for different shooting situations.   Combat shooting would require a better grip, especially in CQC.   Target shooting, the grip is not to secure the pistol as much to produce a more accurate shot.   In Accuracy there are different types or needs.   Hunting VS Target is a a example.  That can effect how one chooses a sighting system, ammo and firearm.  Highly developed forms of shooting, promotes styles that can be almost exclusive for that type of shooting.  

For a carbine in CQC, I tend not to use sights (RVN Tactic).  Sights are not as bad as scopes in creating a myopic view (tunnel vision).   I tried a EOtech (Holographic sight) and it is pretty much like not using the sights.  I used the holographic sight in a peripheral manner and my focus was beyond my rifle, scanning.   That the way it seems to me ho it should work.  I am kind of guessing here.  If I am way off base, let me know.  I don't mind learning new high tech methods. 

NO we did not use Buck N Ball in RVN.


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## SgtUSMC8541 (Aug 31, 2009)

Good job JAB.  Funny thing is, I teach exactly the same way you wrote and I too took pictures for my classes.  Hell except for your 550 cord bracelet, some of the pis could be the same....except for the yeti arms.;)


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## TheWookie (Aug 31, 2009)

*Great post*



SgtUSMC8541 said:


> except for the yeti arms.;)



He might be part wookie.....  aarg


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## arizonaguide (Aug 31, 2009)

I know it's not 100% correct, but I still like my trigger finger all the way in to the first joint rather than the tip/pad as it looks like in your pic. Excellent post on the breathing bro, that's the way I was tought 30yrs ago, and it WORKS!


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## zushwa (Aug 31, 2009)

SAWMAN said:


> I have to say, the support hand rotated further forward does help. It's not so much for taking up more of the recoil rearward, but for helping keep the muzzle down for continuing shots, as well as keeping the alignment left and right, offsetting trigger input. That's how I was taught by John Shaw, Jerry Barnhart and a few others. If the support hand is rotated as far forward as it will go, it's a natural lock to keep the weapon right on target. It's a stronger grip than when it's rotated back a bit, due to the geometric angle and the tendons being locked in place. It's best demonstrated in quicker follow up shots and will become evident in rapid shot drills with tight time restrictions.



Yep.  I wasn't going to name drop but that's the way I was taught by VERY good, experienced shooters and I'll stick with it.

Thanks for working on a project like that.  It could be very helpful to new shooters.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Aug 31, 2009)

I understand locking the wrist as far forward as possible, but again I have to revert back to its really shooter dependent (human body structure and disabilities). My disagreement with Zushwa is not on that point, but more so on having 60-70% of his recoil being managed in his non-firing hand/ arm. I just don’t understand what he is trying to say there. I have been taught in the past to use the non-firing hand to drive the gun during recoil on multi target engagement and do use that technique for things like steel bank drills.  However the recoil management has always been shared between both arms.

Now my human body structure and disabilities comments, I have taught thousands of soldiers, sailors and airmen while teaching with the SARG. I have seen every issue/ complaint you can imagine and have learned that not all techniques work well for all people. People are built differently and require different techniques to develop their shooting. I my self now suffer from some limitations in the neck, back and left arm.

If you go back and view the pictures when I am fully extended and locked out, you will see that my neck is extended lower, my shoulders look funny and m left arm doesn’t look fully locked although it really is. I can’t lift my arms with out bringing my head down now, due to some injuries and I have nerve damage in my left shoulder/ arm/ hand. I shot 1500 rd’s last week over a 5 day period, where I use to shoot 1000 to 1500 rd a day. I am only good for about 500 rd a day now and then the pain become intolerable. So I adjusted my body to get the best results, while trying to maintain what I know is right in order to continue to shoot. So my understanding of body structure and disabilities has gotten a little better these last few months because it has gotten close to home.

Now driving on with the issue of recoil management. I don’t think it’s a good idea to practice to absorb a majority of recoil in the non-firing hand. I teach/ shoot even amount in both arms and have had my best results in shooting and students with doing so. Hips, shoulders as square to the target as you can, and lock both arms out. Recoil is absorbed through the arms, shoulders and hips and the sights should be moving up and down on the target.


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## Cabbage Head (Sep 1, 2009)

Nice post!  Good pic's to show just how to handle a pistol.

Only things that I could add would be bring the sights up to eye level. Not bring your head down to the sights. The things that change this would be the physical limitations of the shooter.  In cases like that, then you take the shooter and make it work for them.  Based on what you have to work with.

That is one of the most challenging (and fun) issues of being an instructor.  I have a guy at the Dept who has lost the tip of his trigger finger down to the first knuckle.  We worked for a couple days on making his limitations work and he has become a competent shooter.  A change on grip made this happen. Sometimes, its not appropriate to place the weapon centered in the web of the hand.  I know that for me, my reference point is off the rear knuckle of my thumb against the backstrap of my G22.  We make the weapon work for the shooter.  

As for the support hand issue, it does help greatly in the control of recoil.  Primary hand should focus on trigger control and a basic grip.


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## Cabbage Head (Sep 1, 2009)

J.A.B. said:
			
		

> *Rapid target engagement & body armor drill:*
> 
> _*Drill deleted by request of J.A.B.*_


 
Oh, and I like this drill! I am going to steal it and use it at the Dept. 

Dont worry, I will make sure that I take all the credit.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 1, 2009)

Cabbage Head said:


> Oh, and I like this drill!  I am going to steal it and use it at the Dept.
> 
> Dont worry, I will make sure that I take all the credit.



I wrote that drill wrong, I was re-reading what I wrote and then checked to my hard copy here and I screwed the pooch...:doh:

I am going to type it out word for word off of my hard copy tomorrow and post it... So don't go taking credit for it yet, get the right one so you don't look like an ass...;) kind of how I just made my self look.:doh:


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## Cabbage Head (Sep 1, 2009)

Oh, don’t worry. If it didn’t work out right, then I would make sure that I had plausible deniability.:)

Still, I like the concept of the drill. With my boss' having issues with ammo lately, a drill that covers multiple threats and a total round count that is within reason is a good thing.:cool:


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 1, 2009)

*Rapid target engagement & body armor drill:*

Use a bank of 4 B27 type targets spaced 12 to 18 inches a part at a distance of 15 yards. Staple two 3x5 index cards to the target, 1 in the facial area and 1 center of mass/ or chest. The index cards should be long ways up.

*Equipment:* Shooter will need at least 2 magazines capable of holding 12 or more rounds, or 3 magazines capable of holding 6 round or more. This course of fire is 30 rounds of ammunition.  A holster and magazine pouches are required. 

*Rapid Target Engagement:

Load one 12 round magazine and holster. The shooter should have a 6 round magazine in a magazine pouch for a slide lock reload at the end of stage 2.*

*Stage 1:* The shooter will have six seconds to draw and fire 1 shot on each target and the return to the far left target and fire 2 additional shots. All shots are fired at center mass/ chest index card. (Shooter holsters)

*Stage 2:* The shooter will have five seconds to draw and fire 1 shot on each target and return to the far left target and fire 2 additional shots. All shots are fired center mass/ chest index cards. (Slide-lock reload with 6 round magazine and holster)

*Stage 3: *The shooter will have 4 seconds to draw and fire 2 shots per a target starting with the second target and ending on the fourth target. All shots are fired at center mass/ chest index card. (Shooter holsters)

*Scoring:* is hit and misses, 10 points per a hit for a total of 180 points. Late shots are counted as misses.

*Body Armor Drill:

Load one 12 round magazine and holster. *

*Stage 1:* The shooter will have 4 seconds to draw and fire 2 shots to the first target center mass/ chest card and 1 shot to the facial card. (Shooter holsters)

*Stage 2:* The shooter will have 3.5 seconds to draw and fire 2 shots to the second target center mass/ chest card and 1 shot to the facial card. (Shooter holsters)

*Stage 3:* The shooter will have 3 seconds to draw and fire 2 shots to the third target center mass/ chest card and 1 shot to the facial card. (Shooter holsters)

*Stage 4:* The shooter will have 2.5 seconds to draw and fire 2 shots to the fourth target center mass/ chest card and 1 shot to the facial card. (Clear pistol and holster)
*
Scoring:* Scoring is hit or miss, 10 points per a hit, for a total of 120 points. If the shooter misses a headshot the shooter drops all hits per that target for the body armor portion. Late shots are counted as misses. The combination of both rapid-fire engagement and body armor drill scores will determine the over all score for skill level. 

270 to 300 Advanced
260 to 230 Intermediate
220 to 190 Basic 

This drill is great for teaching multi target engagements and body armor drills with accuracy; the idea is to shoot as fast as you can accurately. When first starting out the shooter should adjust the times if necessary to insure all shot are hits and then gradually increase the speed to accomplish the full course of fire. Distances can me shortened to 10 yards to build shooter confidence or increased to 20-25 yards to increase difficulty.

Note this course of fire is also great for shooting with a rifle or carbine.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 1, 2009)

> Originally Posted by zushwa
> I would say your support hand needs some better positioning. The support hand plays a vital role in recoil management, which in turn plays a role in follow through and multiple shots. Rotating your support hand forward until the ligaments are locked gives you a fixed position to return to after a shot has been fired. With your wrist "loose" you are playing a guessing game as to where the gun will settle after a shot. With approximately 60-70 percent of your recoil management coming from your support hand I'd say it's an important detail.
> 
> Originally Posted by J.A.B.
> ...



*I am going to eat some crow here,* I miss-read/ miss understood Zushwa’s post in regards to the 60-70% recoil management coming from the support hand. I thought he was saying that the recoil was being absorbed more by one side or the other. He explained to me he was talking about the grip pressure from the non-firing hand being 60-70% and the firing hand being 40-30% of the pressure, this leveling the primary job of the firing hand to work the trigger. I agree with that and use that same type of pressure break down at distance’s past 15 yards. 

I guess I should take a reading comprehension class prior to disagreeing with anyone’s post. :doh: I apologize for the unneeded disagreement, you are in fact correct in what you posted. ;)


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 3, 2009)

*The “1x8” pistol drill.*

The “1x8” pistol drill.

This drill is designed to allow shooters to practice shooting one handed while moving laterally, it will hold the shooter to a high degree of accuracy at the same time pushing the shooters one-handed marksmanship abilities.

*Range:* The range must allow for lateral movement of at leased 15 feet. This drill requires 4 targets spread one in a half to two feet apart at a distance of 5 yards, it is recommended that full size B27 type targets are used with a small target area designated on the target (such as the head) a 4 inch shoot n see type target is recommended.

*Equipment:* 1 pistol and 1 magazine capable of holding 8 rounds. 8 rounds of ammunition are used during this drill.

*Course of fire:* The shooter will begin at the interview stance 5 yards from the target, on the command “fire” (any command can be used, such as “gun” “knife” ect.) the shooter will draw with the right hand fire 1 shot per a target while moving laterally. The shooter will then turn 180 degrees, reversing and changing to the left hand. The shooter will then fire 1 shot per a target while moving laterally to the start location. The shooter will have 10 seconds to fire 8 rounds on 4 targets.

*Scoring:* is hit or miss, the shooter must achieve 1 hit per a target as well as achieving a total of 6 hits.

This course can be modified to the shooters ability by increasing/ decreasing round count and distance. Once the shooter has become proficient at 5 yards the distance should be increased by 5 additional yards.

This is a demonstration video of the drill.

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oV9druFM6Qs[/ame]


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 3, 2009)

*The “controlled pair” pistol drill.*

The “controlled pair” pistol drill.

This drill is designed to build the shooters ability to fire a controlled pair with accuracy, the focus of the drill is not speed however the shooter should increase speed as much as possible with out diminishing accuracy.

*Range:* this drill requires 4 targets spaced 18 to 23 inch apart at a distance of 10 yards. The targets should be B27 type targets, it is recommended that a small bulls eye type target (6 inch shoot n see) be place center mass of the target. 

*Equipment:* 1 pistol, 1 magazine capable of holding 8 rounds and a holster. 8 round is needed to complete this drill.

*Course of fire:* The shooter will be 10 yards from the targets, facing the targets with a pistol, loaded with 8 rounds in the holster. On the command “fire” (any command can be used) the shooter will have 8 seconds to draw the pistol, form a two handed grip and fire two rapid shots center mass of each target.

*Scoring:* is hit or miss (with in the 9 ring of the target) and shot groups should be under 4 inches.

This drill can be modified by increasing/ decreasing distance from the target; once the shooter has become proficient (shot groups under 2 inches) the distance should be increased by 5 yards.

This is a demonstration video of the drill:

[ame]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y5jCkQY45do[/ame]


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## Manolito (Sep 3, 2009)

Thanks to all. I am 61 and was having a terrible time the last couple of years shooting in low light. Finally went to the Doc and had cataracs(sp). Both lenses were replaced and shooting has improved. It is tough when you know you use to and no longer can. Some day a good shooting coach will work on an old guy program.


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## koz (Sep 3, 2009)

Just something to think about - 
On the last video from the last shot back to "ready position" was less than a half second.  One of my biggest critiques of target/competition shooters is they forget following on target.  We always say we fight as we train but it's one of the most common things you see in IDPA/IPSC/3 Gun shooters.  Often a "bad guy" doesn't go down with only two shots.  

I'm not saying do the "gay cover the target" and swing the gun wildly back and forth in the target area, but keeping the gun out, reengaging the sear, and looking over the target area can save that split second that can save your life.  

I also said the same thing to Todd Jarrett about one of his training videos. :cool:


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 3, 2009)

koz said:


> Just something to think about -
> On the last video from the last shot back to "ready position" was less than a half second.  One of my biggest critiques of target/competition shooters is they forget following on target.  We always say we fight as we train but it's one of the most common things you see in IDPA/IPSC/3 Gun shooters.  Often a "bad guy" doesn't go down with only two shots.
> 
> I'm not saying do the "gay cover the target" and swing the gun wildly back and forth in the target area, but keeping the gun out, reengaging the sear, and looking over the target area can save that split second that can save your life.
> ...



Excellent point, I am horrible about tracking the target. I think it’s more to do with being told on the comp side not to see the target fall, just to drive to the next target and fire. Kind of trust your sights thing, if you know your sights bounced out of the target when the shot broke that’s when you know to come back after the bank is complete.

Very good point out…


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## SgtUSMC8541 (Sep 3, 2009)

Sometimes when I am having people shoot steel, I will have one of the targets propped up so that it wont go down till I pull the rope. Almost everyone holsters after two shots or moves on to the next target before they realize that the previous target has not been "neutralized". A mistake that can get you killed.  Of course I used to fire two or three, depending on the plan and move on myself.  Wasn't till an instructor caught me the same way that I learned to change.


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## 8'Duece (Sep 3, 2009)

I can't shoot worth a shit but I  do love shooting.  Drills, what drills ?


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## HOLLiS (Sep 3, 2009)

82ndtrooper said:


> I can't shoot worth a shit but I  do love shooting.  Drills, what drills ?



You know Drills,  those things that hold pointy things and spin them so that they make holes in stuff.


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## 8'Duece (Sep 4, 2009)

HOLLiS said:


> You know Drills,  those things that hold pointy things and spin them so that they make holes in stuff.



Yeah, I've got those drills, and I know how to use em. :cool:


But, I still can't shoot worth a shit. :doh:


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## arizonaguide (Sep 4, 2009)

NICE work Bro!
In our training the drill ALWAYS includes an immediate full reload for completion of the drill. :) (I mean immediately, as part of finishing the drill, if that makes sense.)

and NICE shooting!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 4, 2009)

> *Presidents Pistol Match (DCM)*
> 
> DISTANCES:
> 50 yd. Slow (on B-6)
> ...




This is by far my favorite pistol course of fire. This course is fired one handed and is a true testament of excellent marksmanship. Not a tactical/ practical course, just bare bones can you shoot or can you not. 

On a little side note, I think people sometimes lose track of what good marksmanship is with a pistol. I would define good marksmanship is being able to shoot to the accuracy of the pistol. I think some times people get to wrapped around the axels with the “tactical” stuff. It’s always good to get back to the basic application of marksmanship fundamentals.

As for the video’s I posted, they were shot on my lunch break and were only intended to show the drill. The point of this thread was not to get into tactics and/ or “tactical shooting” but more so to be a place for someone to learn with out paying out the ass to see a trainer (not to say they should not down the road). However a lot of this stuff can be learned with a little bit of reading, demonstration and devotion.

I can punch holes in anyone’s training and or shooting pictures/ videos, I use to do it when I was training instructors at the TF SARG school house. ;) So if you have a few courses of fire, training tips, pictures or videos you would like to post, by all means post them!


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## arizonaguide (Sep 4, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> As for the video’s I posted, they were shot on my lunch break and were only intended to show the drill. The point of this thread was not to get into tactics and/ or “tactical shooting” but more so to be a place for someone to learn with out paying out the ass to see a trainer (not to say they should not down the road). However a lot of this stuff can be learned with a little bit of reading, demonstration and devotion.


And well done, Bro! The ideas and the work you do is appreciated!
Keep it up JAB! One of the concept's I'm getting from your posts is to NEVER forget that the BASICS of marksmanship still apply with pistol shooting. I have found this to be true in our classes. If a person can't hit the target, it sure as hell don't matter how fast/tactically they got off their misses. Keep up the great work J! It's Appreciated, by folks like me who are learning most on our own without High Speed instruction.


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## 8'Duece (Sep 4, 2009)

This is a great thread. Keep up the good work J.A.B.


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## zushwa (Sep 5, 2009)

8'Duece said:


> This is a great thread. Keep up the good work J.A.B.



Indeed.

I wish I could watch the videos but we just got our pee pee's smacked for downloading video.  So gay.

Very sound advise about marksmanship.  Only hits count.

A quick story.  I was attending a CQB course last year with some relatively well trained gentlemen from different agencies.  The course had us doing flow drills, flat range, and live fire in the house.  Some guys were decent at the flow drills, decent on the flat range, but the WHEELS FELL OFF when the two were put together in the house.  Looking back, the marginal marksmanship on the flat range translated to horrendous shooting in the house where things were a bit more dynamic.

ONLY HITS COUNT!!

Another short story.  I was at another course (I do that a bit) and a discussion amongst a group of students was taking place about suppressive fire and keeping the enemies' heads down.  One very experienced student said from the back "I don't know about you guys, but I want them to keep their heads up....".

ONLY HITS COUNT.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 5, 2009)

zushwa said:


> Another short story.  I was at another course (I do that a bit) and a discussion amongst a group of students was taking place about suppressive fire and keeping the enemies' heads down.  One very experienced student said from the back "I don't know about you guys, but I want them to keep their heads up...."



I was attending a SWAT course a few years ago, which had a few BTDT SOF guys attending. I can’t remember the guy’s name, but he was always saying, “The best cover in the world is accurate fire on the enemy” that always stuck with me. Held very true when I deployed in 03.

Vickers also does a break down on how accuracy is diminished by 50% during high stress induced shooting such as in combat.


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## zushwa (Sep 5, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> Vickers also does a break down on how accuracy is diminished by 50% during high stress induced shooting such as in combat.



Both aforementioned courses were with LAV.


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## WillBrink (Sep 5, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> I was attending a SWAT course a few years ago, which had a few BTDT SOF guys attending. I can’t remember the guy’s name, but he was always saying, “The best cover in the world is accurate fire on the enemy” that always stuck with me. Held very true when I deployed in 03.
> 
> Vickers also does a break down on how accuracy is diminished by 50% during high stress induced shooting such as in combat.



That's the rule I use even for competition, 50%. I can usually do better, but I don't count on it. Having no combat experience, I can't comment there, but it comes as no surprise Vickers would say that. Practice practice! :confused:


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## WillBrink (Sep 5, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> Excellent point, I am horrible about tracking the target.



A poor area for me too. When I took a course with Jeff G, he pointed that out to me that I was failing to track targets. Something I try to work on. It's not an area comp shooting like IDPA helps much with, so unless you integrate yourself    to perform it, it does not happen naturally (at least for me) while competing.


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## arizonaguide (Sep 5, 2009)

*Movement and Tracking...*

I get some of my training through work, but I would NOT call my boss a REAL High Speed experienced person. Yes, he was a corpsman in Vietnam, so not bad...he's definately BTDT in many ways (so still good stuff)...but our training is not on the level of a "Gunsite", for example.

My next move (after one more FREE class: Night Shooting) is to find a way to move to the NEXT LEVEL, so to speak. And THAT seems to be the concept of shooting accuratly *ON THE MOVE*! I do intend to get involved with IDPA here when the weather cools, but that doesn't give you much experience with *BOTH the target and yourself moving* (if at all). I know I'm going to get spanked for saying this, but I do believe there are some great training tools for learning Target Tracking/Both target and yourself moving...and it involves compressed air. :cool:;)


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 5, 2009)

PISTOL MARKSMANSHIP :uhh:


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## Manolito (Sep 5, 2009)

J.A.B 
I shot your 1x8 drill today. I just wanted to say thanks. I will continue to practice but I was suprised my off hand wasn't a problem. The eight rounds worked well for me I carry a Sig P239 daily so the number eight works well. I bought a Glock 36 but I am still trying to learn the trigger before I start carrying it. 

People like you that take the chance and move forward in the world of critics are appreciated by us less knowledgeable mortals.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Sep 6, 2009)

Manolito said:


> J.A.B
> I shot your 1x8 drill today. I just wanted to say thanks. I will continue to practice but I was suprised my off hand wasn't a problem. The eight rounds worked well for me I carry a Sig P239 daily so the number eight works well. I bought a Glock 36 but I am still trying to learn the trigger before I start carrying it.
> 
> People like you that take the chance and move forward in the world of critics are appreciated by us less knowledgeable mortals.



I am glad to hear it! I will post some more drill's next week with some better video I hope. ;)


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## Hush (Sep 6, 2009)

arizonaguide said:


> I know I'm going to get spanked for saying this, but I do believe there are some great training tools for learning Target Tracking/Both target and yourself moving...and it involves compressed air. :cool:;)



Agreed 100%, airsoft is a great tool for close range engagements.  Great way to replicate stress, with out the high cost/liability of sims.  If you think of cheap plastic guns from wal-mart when you think of airsoft, you have no idea what is out there.  These pistols look, feel, and function just like the real thing and the short range ballistics are right on.


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## arizonaguide (Sep 6, 2009)

J.A.B. said:


> PISTOL MARKSMANSHIP :uhh:


Agreed, Bro! Just saying practicing MOVE MOVE MOVE in REAL life, right?
I really like post #28. :cool: Good stuff.


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