# 18A Career Path Questions



## drfahringer (Dec 20, 2019)

Evening forum, 

Ultimately - the goal I have in mind would be to join the guard when I get to 90 credits (currently at 60), and attend federal OCS when I get my bachelors, and work as a non-deployable officer MOS -for the sake of time away from my family- until God willing, I reach 1st LT. or Captain, and then work my way into selection and try to earn a spot as an 18A. What I am running up against however, is having absolutely no idea if this is a completely unrealistic/stupid and or impossible idea, or if this is a definite possibility given the obvious factors (excellent physical shape, mental shape, and passing SFAS and the rest). But I would rather be told the truth and just know that it will never happen, than spend time away from my family and not reach the ultimate destination. The alternative to this plan would be to commission in the Marine Corps through the PLC program and try to earn an infantry officer slot.

If anyone has any 19th SF NG specific answers, I would be grateful. -Thank you


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## LibraryLady (Dec 20, 2019)

What is a non-deployable officer MOS? 

LL


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## AWP (Dec 20, 2019)

drfahringer said:


> join the guard
> attend federal OCS
> non-deployable officer MOS



You have a better chance of becoming an astronaut.

Good luck.


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## drfahringer (Dec 20, 2019)

LibraryLady said:


> What is a non-deployable officer MOS?
> 
> LL


I was thinking in terms of administration- like Human Resources.


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## drfahringer (Dec 20, 2019)

AWP said:


> You have a better chance of becoming an astronaut.
> 
> Good luck.


Ha, not likely. Clearly my intelligence has very limited, well defined parameters. Do you think this would be a different scenario if I went with a ground mos?


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## policemedic (Dec 20, 2019)

I have a simpler question.  Why do you not want to be deployable?  SF deploys all the time for real world contingencies and training, so it seems contradictory to say, "I don't want to deploy but then I want to join a unit with a high op-tempo that deploys constantly."


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## AWP (Dec 20, 2019)

drfahringer said:


> Ha, not likely. Clearly my intelligence has very limited, well defined parameters. Do you think this would be a different scenario if I went with a ground mos?



The Guard is exceptionally reluctant to send candidates to the federal program. Your odds of a State taking some guy off the street (i.e. not prior enlisted and very politically connected) to Federal OCS are very, very long.

Guard deployments are winding down, but if you truly want to avoid doing soldier stuff look for a Finance Detachment, PAO, real Fobbit jobs, and then hope 19th Group neeeds enough O's to take a chance on one of those branches. The officer who tries to get out of a deployment, TDY, etc. will take a beating when the unit screens 18A candidates. One phone call in the Guard can destroy a career. Networking and the Good Old Boy club are alive and well...

To be blunt: take 90% of your original post, flush it down the toilet, and start over OR find something different to do with your weekends.

Cheers,
Former Guard NCO turned O


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## drfahringer (Dec 20, 2019)

Fair question. I don’t know if you have a family-  but if so then I would imagine you know how precious that time is. When it comes to Army deployments, regardless of SOF or non-SOF it seems like everything points to year long or greater deployment time. For me it’s the concern of how long, and to what end state/purpose. If I’m going to stretch my family, then I want to do it in the right places. If that makes sense?


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## drfahringer (Dec 20, 2019)

AWP said:


> The Guard is exceptionally reluctant to send candidates to the federal program. Your odds of a State taking some guy off the street (i.e. not prior enlisted and very politically connected) to Federal OCS are very, very long.
> 
> Guard deployments are winding down, but if you truly want to avoid doing soldier stuff look for a Finance Detachment, PAO, real Fobbit jobs, and then hope 19th Group neeeds enough O's to take a chance on one of those branches. The officer who tries to get out of a deployment, TDY, etc. will take a beating when the unit screens 18A candidates. One phone call in the Guard can destroy a career. Networking and the Good Old Boy club are alive and well...
> 
> ...


Sir that makes total sense, and I believe I am tracking with you 100%. That’s exactly what I needed to hear. I appreciate it.


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## policemedic (Dec 20, 2019)

drfahringer said:


> Fair question. I don’t know if you have a family-  but if so then I would imagine you know how precious that time is. When it comes to Army deployments, regardless of SOF or non-SOF it seems like everything points to year long or greater deployment time. For me it’s the concern of how long, and to what end state/purpose. If I’m going to stretch my family, then I want to do it in the right places. If that makes sense?



You pays your money and you takes your chances.

On the other hand, there are plenty of opportunities to enjoy a rewarding career in public service outside the military.  You should probably consider some of them.


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## LibraryLady (Dec 21, 2019)

drfahringer said:


> I was thinking in terms of administration- like Human Resources.


And you think HR doesn't deploy? Or get stationed at an unaccompanied base? That's a base, by the way, where family doesn't come with you.

Family time is a very important part of your life. That is truly evident.

Even if you're stationed with your family, your duties come first. No taking time off for the school play, or birthdays or church...  

Guard gets called up for natural disasters. Fire and flood and earthquakes mean you're working even when your own house is a loss and your family is homeless.

The military, whether active duty or guard/reserve, involves sacrifice. Yours AND most especially your family, most be on board with it or it's not going to work.

Have you talked to them about your dream?

LL


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## DZ (Dec 21, 2019)

drfahringer said:


> work as a non-deployable officer MOS -for the sake of time away from my family.


With an attitude like that, we don't need you. Do you think that most of us don't have families?

I hate this attitude of "I wanna join the military, but I only want to contribute/work/deploy/do my job if it's in SOF.." 

You haven't even joined the military yet, what makes you think your time with family is so much more important than guys in the conventional military? Like it's ONLY worth being away from family if it's as a SOF guy?

Again, with that attitude I hope you don't make it.


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## drfahringer (Dec 22, 2019)

[GROUP=][/GROUP] 
Given some of the responses I have seen, I can definitely see that I have failed to understand some fairly basic concepts- and I also haven't qualified or articulated myself well AT-ALL. So on that end, I hope this response is at all helpful. It will be a response to DZ, but again, I hope it addresses some of the former comments I made. 

I think a few things should be noted in the beginning here. My assumption is that the forums experiences with civilians can be less than stellar- and I think the fair amount of locked threads I have seen would reflect that. I can't speak to all of those- but as for the thread that I have made, I'm going to try and speak the best I can to a few points and all I am asking for is some patience with me because flat out- I don't know what I don't know. 

Let's take how I got to this point in the first place as an example. As a civilian with no family members who have taken part in the wars going on over the past twenty/thirty years, and with no access to SOF communities (and limited exposure to conventional military units) I am at the mercy of the internet (with information rapidly being dded and changed every single day - as well as recruiters who all vary in regards to experience, personality, and integrity/trustworthiness. 

Due to my own immaturity and a few other factors- my first real exposure to any special operations unit/community was the movie Lone Survivor. And seeing as how big Navy has really had the "corner" on recruiting- I really believed so much of what I read and heard in regards to NSW being the best in the world, the hardest military training in the world, the "operators" of the military, etc. I might have heard the terms Ranger, PJ, Green Beret or the like in a movie, but it just wouldn't have registered in my mind for the reasons listed above. Top of which being no prior experience or knowledge to compare it to. 

So, when I started to understand that it's far more complex than that, and the different tasks/roles/missions that each SOF unit has it really humbled me and made me realize that I was under some serious false presumptions and motivations. Then after pouring through literally hundreds and hundreds of hours of podcasts, documentaries, and pages/web articles- I started to grasp what it was that I really wanted to do, but I still had to deal with the fact that I hadn't addressed some serious factors. 

Those factors would be:

1. The nature of war/what kind of war we are in/do I agree with the war, and attached to that would be, do I believe we are in the war to actually win it (and what winning in the war on terror actually means)
2. Time away from the family (and understanding/being realistic with how much time away is actually involved - and to what end) 
3. Divorce rates in the military and why it happens/how to best combat that issue in my own marriage 
4. (Again) What is it that I want to accomplish, and how. 

With that in mind- I don't know what good man/leader would apologize for, or would have to qualify why he wants to put his family/team first. I'm not accountable for how another man leads his family, I'm accountable for how I lead my own.  To be clear, this doesn't mean that in every scenario or circumstance that my family/team is going to be put ahead of somebody else's family/team or that I have the expectation that no sacrifice is required. Respectfully, those words belong to someone else, but not me. I would imagine that the same principle applies to an ODA. Wouldn't a good 18A have the mission and his men in mind with everything that he does? Is an ODA best served if the officer puts his own ODA behind every other? Last to get the training slots, last to get the deployments, last to get pay (and everything else it might include)? And that does that mean that the ODA is never called upon to be last, or to make sacrifices where it absolutely hurts or kills them? No. To me it's being prudent about sacrifice, and wise about the when/where/and why of that sacrifice. Any good leader should have that in mind. 

And what it means is that I am trying to do the very best I can with the circumstances. I'm twenty-eight with two children, a wife, and a house. If there were a direct path to 18A like there is for the 18 Series (such as 18X) well then there would be no question or hesitation. It should be said as well that if you look up 18A on Go Army, it doesn't make any connection to prior MOS/jobs. If it was a prerequisite to be an 11A or any other Ground MOS - well, the question wouldn't have come up at all because I would know my direct path. As it is, I have to create accounts on military forums such as this one to glean some insight from people who are actually there or who have been there.

And to make a small point on that end- I would imagine there is an overwhelming amount of young/younger people who sign up for this forum with the goal of getting a BUDS contract/Option 40 Contract/18X Contract and the like. I would also imagine that no one has any issue with this at all (and to your point DZ), there should be no issue whatsoever for those who want to do those particular jobs right? And just like these candidates shouldn't look down on conventional forces for choosing their path, the inverse should be true as well right? Then given the circumstances, and given the fact that I never once said that I wouldn't serve in a conventional capacity, or that the time spent by those who have chosen that path is "less than", I don't draw the same parallels that you do. 

There’s a way of serving (in my opinion) that is also self serving. My family is not served if I am on the relentless pursuit of self-glory, or ambition, or a deep sense of personal fulfillment (and you could insert quite a few other motivations in there) at the expense of their well-being, especially while I am building the foundation for the rest of their lives. My wife does not have the well of emotional fortitude that other military spouses have, and so to make the proper adjustments for that, I am looking out for her as much as I possibly can- not to mention the children who have no vote on what I have decided to do with my/our weekends.  

In my mind - the ultimate goal of a good officer is to put the mission and the man a thousand miles ahead of himself by laying his life down over, and over, and over again to ensure that end. If that doesn't start with my family, then I don't know how it could ever possibly hope to translate to a platoon or ODA. And by serving my family, the platoon/ODA is served far, far better as well. If my family and home life are stable, then my ODA wins. My weekends home are not spent with bitter fighting and resentment. Instead they are spend taking care of the ODA - and fine tuning skills, whatever they may be. If my son learns to live the time away because he sees the worth of self-sacrifice (and especially because it served them personally as well) then perhaps he will wan to learn what I've learned, and follow in my footsteps- and be a better man/soldier/officer then I was (and ultimately continue the mission). And if my daughter wants to marry a man like myself, and the complete opposite, then perhaps she will make children who follow that path as well. Sure, would HR or a non-deployable job be the type of service I would have imagined when I was in my early-twenties? Let me be frank, absolutely not. But would I be proud and honored? Absolutely.


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## drfahringer (Dec 22, 2019)

LibraryLady said:


> And you think HR doesn't deploy? Or get stationed at an unaccompanied base? That's a base, by the way, where family doesn't come with you.
> 
> Family time is a very important part of your life. That is truly evident.
> 
> ...


Not in any way to be too brief - but to answer your question briefly - I have! And hopefully the post down below will help clarify as well. And I appreciate your post. It wasn't my intention to be too presumptive.


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## DZ (Dec 22, 2019)

drfahringer said:


> Really long, drawn out post.



Ok, it sounds like you have all the answers..

How about this, tell me exactly why you want to "work as a non-deployable officer MOS" before going to Selection. And please limit it to a couple paragraphs.

What I surmise from you saying that is: you want to do what you have to to meet the rank requirements to attend SFAS without deploying beforehand, in order to spend the majority of your time with your family before getting into SF, where you WILL be required to deploy. Am I wrong?

If I am correct, then I revert to my previous statement: With an attitude like that, we don't need you.


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## drfahringer (Dec 22, 2019)

Sure, I will certainly do my best. And no, wouldn’t say by any means that I have all the answers. Not even close. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here right? But your opinion strikes a real chord with me because you are specially from that community- so if I’m wrong headed in this I want to change my thinking.

I would just choose to rephrase (and I'll give some qualifications below). What I'm saying is this: I have a particular job in mind that I would love to do (18A). I understand that you need to be a certain rank in order to earn a slot at selection. Personally, I have never felt the desire to have one of the conventional Army jobs- but I have a deep respect and appreciation for the men and women that do. I would never look down on that job for a second. And I would never imply that somehow those who deploy for those jobs are not using time effectively. That would be an insane assertion on my part. Amongst other things. My recruiter never mentioned, and I have never read anywhere that you had to work a job that deploys before attending SFAS as an officer- so my thought was "perhaps this is the best of both worlds for me and my family." But I also never looked down on doing an administrative job because I can do those types of job and actually enjoy it. And as far as being in the National Guard goes- my perception was that it gives you the option of having a civilian career too - and I'm currently in the hiring process for a local department. So on the other hand it gave me the sense that I could also build that part of my life that will help sustain my family IF I made it through selection and the pipeline. So in my mind- just like men who go in as an 18X, not all of them look down on conventional units- they just had something specific in mind.


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## ThunderHorse (Dec 22, 2019)

Having served in a 42B billet...oh boy.  AG officers deploy with their units, all the time, every time.


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## DasBoot (Dec 22, 2019)

drfahringer said:


> Sure, I will certainly do my best. And no, wouldn’t say by any means that I have all the answers. Not even close. Otherwise I wouldn’t be here right? But your opinion strikes a real chord with me because you are specially from that community- so if I’m wrong headed in this I want to change my thinking.
> 
> I would just choose to rephrase (and I'll give some qualifications below). What I'm saying is this: I have a particular job in mind that I would love to do (18A). I understand that you need to be a certain rank in order to earn a slot at selection. Personally, I have never felt the desire to have one of the conventional Army jobs- but I have a deep respect and appreciation for the men and women that do. I would never look down on that job for a second. And I would never imply that somehow those who deploy for those jobs are not using time effectively. That would be an insane assertion on my part. Amongst other things. My recruiter never mentioned, and I have never read anywhere that you had to work a job that deploys before attending SFAS as an officer- so my thought was "perhaps this is the best of both worlds for me and my family." But I also never looked down on doing an administrative job because I can do those types of job and actually enjoy it. And as far as being in the National Guard goes- my perception was that it gives you the option of having a civilian career too - and I'm currently in the hiring process for a local department. So on the other hand it gave me the sense that I could also build that part of my life that will help sustain my family IF I made it through selection and the pipeline. So in my mind- just like men who go in as an 18X, not all of them look down on conventional units- they just had something specific in mind.


If you’re not willing to deploy at any time, then you shouldn’t be in the Army. Stay out. I fucking hate war dodgers. They’re the only thing worse in this world than a quitter.


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## drfahringer (Dec 22, 2019)

DasBoot said:


> If you’re not willing to deploy at any time, then you shouldn’t be in the Army. Stay out. I fucking hate war dodgers. They’re the only thing worse in this world than a quitter.


I don’t disagree at all. I’ve said directly, and I have said it in various ways that I have no problem with that.


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## Ooh-Rah (Dec 22, 2019)

AWP said:


> To be blunt: take 90% of your original post, flush it down the toilet, and start over OR find something different to do with your weekends.
> 
> Cheers,
> Former Guard NCO turned O


The OP should have taken @AWP ’s advice and just moved on.  Other than frustrating current and former members of the military on this site, it seems that this thread has run it’s course.

- locked -


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