# Terrorist attack ongoing in France (14th July, Bastille Day)



## Rapid (Jul 14, 2016)

*Terror: Truck Crashes into Crowd Celebrating Bastille Day, At Least 60 Dead*

Terror: Truck Crashes into Crowd Celebrating Bastille Day, At Least 30 Dead - Breitbart

But I thought Obama said the only way to stop such deadly attacks was to take those high powered rifles out of people's hands? What, you mean that won't stop Islamic terrorists!?

1) Fuck these people

2) Fuck the self-hating liberal Westerners who are going to try to justify this as our own fault and make the Muslims out to be the real victims/innocent in all this



Embedded media from this media site is no longer available


Muh Islamophobia!


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## Kraut783 (Jul 14, 2016)

Damn.....RIP to the victims.


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## Salt USMC (Jul 14, 2016)

For fuck's sake


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 14, 2016)

Humanity is getting real stupid real fast.

RIP


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## Rapid (Jul 14, 2016)




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## DA SWO (Jul 14, 2016)

73 KIA so far.

RIP.


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## RackMaster (Jul 14, 2016)

Reading reports 1 suspect dead, shot at scene by local police and 1 location unknown.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 14, 2016)

:wall::wall::wall:


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## poison (Jul 14, 2016)

Location unknown is not good at all. Dead guy drove 2-3 miles on the strand there, mowing people down? Christ.


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## SpitfireV (Jul 14, 2016)

Is it confirmed that it's an Islamic attack yet and not just an assumption? Nothing down this way about a motive yet. Could just be a nutter.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 14, 2016)

Too much of the fringe is trying to grab headlines. The hell of it is, that they come out of nowhere, with no waring, and begin killing people as fast and as much as they can.

If the media begins to shut this stuff down, and stops the sensational, horrid coverage, will the events go away?


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## Rapid (Jul 14, 2016)

SpitfireV said:


> Is it confirmed that it's an Islamic attack yet and not just an assumption? Nothing down this way about a motive yet. Could just be a nutter.



He came out of the truck with an AK and started shooting people. A truck full of grenades and other weapons. This is a suspect who stayed in a hotel room which police have just raided, in which they found ISIS propaganda materiel.

I can see Obama now, "The suspect's motives are... puzzling"


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## AWP (Jul 14, 2016)

“You can kill a man but you can't kill an idea.” - Sophocles


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## SpitfireV (Jul 14, 2016)

Rapid said:


> He came out of the truck with an AK and started shooting people. A truck full of grenades and other weapons. This is a suspect who stayed in a hotel room which police have just raided, in which they found ISIS propaganda materiel.
> 
> I can see Obama now, "The suspect's motives are... puzzling"



Yeah I don't care what Obama has to say about it. Thanks for the info. Like I said, details take time sometimes.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 14, 2016)

Rapid said:


> He came out of the truck with an AK and started shooting people. A truck full of grenades and other weapons. This is a suspect who stayed in a hotel room which police have just raided, in which they found ISIS propaganda materiel.
> 
> I can see Obama now, "The suspect's motives are... puzzling"



New laws will go into effect for all US vehicles to have people friendly bumpers.


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## Rapid (Jul 14, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> New laws will go into effect for all US vehicles to have people friendly bumpers.



You must ban Assault Trucks.


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## Ex3 (Jul 14, 2016)

Dear god, I just can't...RIP. :'(


I live close to the finish line of the NYC marathon. The crowd is always in the tens of thousands, people meeting their runners. Since 9/11, garbage trucks full of sand are parked at the end of every block to protect the crowd from acts exactly like this. Thank you, NYPD.


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## CDG (Jul 14, 2016)

Damn....... RIP to the fallen.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 14, 2016)

Ex3 said:


> Dear god, I just can't...RIP. :'(
> 
> 
> I live close to the finish line of the NYC marathon. The crowd is always in the tens of thousands, people meeting their runners. Since 9/11, garbage trucks full of sand are parked at the end of every block to protect the crowd from acts exactly like this. Thank you, NYPD.



That is some very proactive thinking by the NYPD!! Others could learn from this.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 14, 2016)

Red Flag 1 said:


> New laws will go into effect for all US vehicles to have people friendly bumpers.



We have to make sure people are properly background checked before obtaining a Commercial Drivers License and have access to these "trucks"


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## Rapid (Jul 14, 2016)

Fire erupts near Eiffel Tower after truck filled with fireworks ignites in Paris

Just fucking unreal.


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## AWP (Jul 14, 2016)

@R.Caerbannog 
If you're going to disagree you need to cough up why you're disagreeing. It's poor form otherwise.


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## Scubadew (Jul 14, 2016)

The gloves just need to come off.


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## Florida173 (Jul 14, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> @R.Caerbannog
> If you're going to disagree you need to cough up why you're disagreeing. It's poor form otherwise.



He must not like Sophocles


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## Ex3 (Jul 14, 2016)

Rapid said:


> Fire erupts near Eiffel Tower after truck filled with fireworks ignites in Paris
> 
> Just fucking unreal.


Looks to be unrelated? Eiffel Tower blaze a ‘technical incident’ involving a ‘truck with fireworks’, police say


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## Marine0311 (Jul 14, 2016)

RIP to those that lost their lives.


Find them all and kill them all.


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## Rapid (Jul 14, 2016)

Ex3 said:


> Looks to be unrelated? Eiffel Tower blaze a ‘technical incident’ involving a ‘truck with fireworks’, police say



A technical incident (a pretty huge fuck up in an industry that's so highly regulated) which occurred, by all chance, around the same time of this attack? Involving the country's most symbolic image?

We don't know if the 'incident' was purely accidental (and hugely coincidental), or if the 'technical incident' was in fact deliberately engineered to happen. The police's statement would still be correct in the latter case.

A truck doesn't need to blow up or kill anyone for it to count as terrorism. The Eiffel Tower engulfed in smoke is enough of an image itself to spread fear.

I wouldn't be surprised if the government is directing the police to deflect as much as they can on this, so it doesn't count as a 'win' for ISIS. They will likely deny it has anything to do with terrorism unless someone can prove it beyond a shadow of a doubt -- even if it's entirely reasonable to suspect terrorism is related to it.

Hell, if the suspect who got iced in Nice had managed to get away, the government would probably be telling everyone that we can't make any assumptions about him either.


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## CQB (Jul 14, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> @R.Caerbannog
> If you're going to disagree you need to cough up why you're disagreeing. It's poor form otherwise.


Better ideas, simple.


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## racing_kitty (Jul 14, 2016)

Rapid said:


> A technical incident (a pretty huge fuck up in an industry that's so highly regulated) which occurred, by all chance, around the same time of this attack? Involving the country's most symbolic image?
> 
> We don't know if the 'incident' was purely accidental (and hugely coincidental), or if the 'technical incident' was in fact deliberately engineered to happen. The police's statement would still be correct in the latter case.



To play the devil's advocate, professional grade fireworks are some seriously dangerous toys to play with.  It doesn't take much to screw the pooch as far as that goes; it's not impossible that one of the guys on the fireworks team was suffering adverse emotional effects from the news coming out of Nice and bolloxed the operation.  How probable that is, however, I can't attest to.  I'm not there.  Whether intentional or accidental, you are right that the sight of a smoke-shrouded Eiffel Tower makes for a pretty powerful PSYOP win for ISIS, but I don't see them seizing on it as a win in their playbook.


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## Rapid (Jul 14, 2016)

racing_kitty said:


> To play the devil's advocate, professional grade fireworks are some seriously dangerous toys to play with.  It doesn't take much to screw the pooch as far as that goes; it's not impossible that one of the guys on the fireworks team was suffering adverse emotional effects from the news coming out of Nice and bolloxed the operation.  How probable that is, however, I can't attest to.  I'm not there.  Whether intentional or accidental, you are right that the sight of a smoke-shrouded Eiffel Tower makes for a pretty powerful PSYOP win for ISIS, but I don't see them seizing on it as a win in their playbook.



Yes, we shall see. Though I don't expect anything from the officials.

On another note, I found this parody (of the liberal reporter who 'gets PTSD' from firing some guns) quite funny...


_
It felt to me like a M1-A1 Abrams— and sounded like an IFV.

One day after 73 people were killed in the Nice roadkilling, I traveled to Philadelphia to better understand the firepower of commercial assault-style trucks and, hopefully, explain their appeal to truck lovers.

But mostly, I was just terrified.

I’ve driven automobiles before, but never something like an assault truck. Push lightly on the throttle and the resulting explosion of torque is humbling and deafening (even with ear protection).

The recoil bruised my lower back, which can happen if you don't know what you're doing. The traffic signs disoriented me as they flew past my face. The smell of exhaust and old upholstery made me sick. The horn — loud like a bomb — gave me a temporary form of PTSD. For at least an hour after shifting the gears just a few times, I was anxious and irritable.

Even with a governor, it is very simple to hit 50 miles per hour before you even know what has happened. If illegally modified to remove the top speed restriction, it doesn’t take any imagination to see dozens of bodies falling in front of your bumper.

All it takes is the will to do it.

Seventy three people can be gone in 60 seconds._


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## DA SWO (Jul 14, 2016)

racing_kitty said:


> To play the devil's advocate, professional grade fireworks are some seriously dangerous toys to play with.  It doesn't take much to screw the pooch as far as that goes; it's not impossible that one of the guys on the fireworks team was suffering adverse emotional effects from the news coming out of Nice and bolloxed the operation.  How probable that is, however, I can't attest to.  I'm not there.  Whether intentional or accidental, you are right that the sight of a smoke-shrouded Eiffel Tower makes for a pretty powerful PSYOP win for ISIS, but I don't see them seizing on it as a win in their playbook.



Disagree on the last sentence.  They claim everything as a win, that's what is so frustrating to me (our media politicians not understanding that fact).

80 dead with another 50 injured.

From the Daily Mail (don't know how reliable they are)

Identity documents belonging to a 31-year-old French Tunisian were found in the truck according to security sources. 

The source said: 'The identification of the truck driver is still underway.' The recovered documents indicate the man is a resident of Nice.

One eyewitness described seeing 'bodies flying like bowling pins' and 'hearing noises, cries that I will never forget' as the horror unfolded on a busy promenade at around 10.30pm last night.t

The truck driver was said to have shouted 'Allahu Akbar' — God is greatest — before being shot dead by police. Pro-ISIS groups have been celebrating the attack but as yet the terror group has not officially claimed responsibility.



Read more: 80 dead in Nice terror truck massacre 
Follow us: @MailOnline on Twitter | DailyMail on Facebook


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## Beagle (Jul 15, 2016)

Rapid said:


> You must ban Assault Trucks.



After the Assault Trucks are banned they are coming after your Semi-Trucks.

But seriously though this guy did some serious psychological damage with all that carnage on the streets.  Also taking out 84 and injuring more.  This is worst than the Paris attack, the Paris attack had 6 or so attackers and only killed 130.

I'll say a truck is more dangerous than an AR/AK.  The world has an ISIS problem.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Jul 15, 2016)

All fun and joke's until you think about what happened.  People died by being run over by a tractor trailer. And people are making jokes....WTF.


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## Florida173 (Jul 15, 2016)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> All fun and joke's until you think about what happened.  People died by being run over by a tractor trailer. And people are making jokes....WTF.



I think people are getting increasingly desensitized to it


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## RackMaster (Jul 15, 2016)

Terrorist was alone in the vehicle and known to police.  Sounds like some serious mistakes were made.  He was permitted to sit parked in the vehicle for 9 hours, was questioned by police but since he stated he was "delivering ice cream; he was permitted to stay.

On CNN this morning, the handgun was a Tokarev, the rifle, explosives and grenades were fake.

Nice terrorist is NAMED as French-Tunisian Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel


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## Devildoc (Jul 15, 2016)

Poor France can't buy a break with the Jihad.


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## Gunz (Jul 15, 2016)

WTF has happened to French security? These guys--like the SDECE's Action service--used be unrelentingly preemptive against terrorists. Not always successful but aggressive as fuck. This fiasco, like the last one, looks like epic fail on the part of intel and inter-agency communication...either that or the fear of getting your ass handed to you by violating somebody's human rights.

Yesterday, on NPR, I'm listening to a panel compare Trump to Hitler because of his statements on Muslim immigration. It just seems to me the more violent our enemies become the more the leadership in 1st World countries, and those who think appeasement is the answer, want our balls to drop off.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 15, 2016)

Looking for a link - listening to discussion on radio saying that driver had been stopped at checkpoint and said he was "delivering ice cream".

Come on, it is like an episode of Hogan's Heroes.


Edit to add link.

Inside the shabby flat of Nice terrorist Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel


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## Rapid (Jul 15, 2016)

It doesn't have much to do with Intel. That being said, they _are_ stretched thin after that German cunt Merkel told half the Middle East they were welcome to take refuge in Europe. This guy wasn't even known to any agencies (just a criminal record, no signs of extremism).

What it has to do with is Islam. It shows that even the quiet people, who no one expects to be extremists, are still a risk.

We'll need a few thousand more deaths before more people will start to realise that Islam just isn't compatible with the Western world.

Not if you want a peaceful country anyway. But I'm starting to think our politicians don't really give a shit and just see these attacks as occasional inconveniences. It's not like Obama/Merkel or their family and friends will ever be affected by the delights of multiculturalism. So why would they care about the peasants?


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## Muppet (Jul 15, 2016)

Ugh.

M.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 15, 2016)

I see and hear too many "all Muslims"  comments.  There are factions of Radical Islamic Fundlementists who are evil incarnate, willing to torture, kill and terrorize, all in the name of their religion. But...same could be said for certain Christian factions, and I say that as a practicing Christian. 

One of my very best friends is from Bangladesh and a practicing Muslim. He loves this country with all his heart and knows and understands our history far better than most of those calling for him and his family to leave "their country". These attacks in the name of his religion hurt him immensely. 

Dangerous path when we let ourself generalize with the word "all".


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## Rapid (Jul 15, 2016)

I feel sorry for the small number of truly progressive Muslims, I really do. Not to be confused with the mainstream 'moderates' who still have regressive views and who often act as apologists for their more extreme brothers. But it's not like we can truly identify who's 'progressive' or not. So I'd rather a country with no Muslims at all, if that's what it took to save hundreds or thousands of fellow citizens from being killed or sexually assaulted. I'm sorry, but Ahmed next door who seems kind of nice is not worth all the other shit his religion comes with. He may not represent those things, but then again people didn't think that about the guy who just mowed down 80 people either... until he did.

I'm not going to take a chance on a religion just because I might feel guilty about discriminating against it otherwise. I'd be more than happy to discriminate against Islam, if it meant the streets of Europe didn't end up looking like Raqqa every couple of months. We are a superior civilisation... only so long as we still exist.


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## DA SWO (Jul 15, 2016)

Rapid said:


> It doesn't have much to do with Intel. That being said, they _are_ stretched thin after that German cunt Merkel told half the Middle East they were welcome to take refuge in Europe. This guy wasn't even known to any agencies (just a criminal record, no signs of extremism).
> 
> What it has to do with is Islam. It shows that even the quiet people, who no one expects to be extremists, are still a risk.
> 
> ...



Bold face stuff.

That was our view until 9-1-1.

I really think it will take a WMD to get the politicians off their asses.


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## AWP (Jul 15, 2016)

If the religion disappeared tomorrow, my concern would be "can I draw unemployment."

Sure, not everyone's a bad guy, but how many are complicit through knowledge or deed? How many complain about the broad brush but do nothing to help their cause? Push comes to shove, how many will choose peace over their religion (this could be said for probably all religions)?

Look at our urban areas in the US and the mostly intra-ethnic violence. veryone wants it to end, but no one's a snitch or they "ain't working with no po-lice." Or the Mafia in Italian communities (or any organized crime entity in their own ethnics/ religious enclaves).

You can't have it both ways. You can't be innocent and not participate in the solution.


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## DocIllinois (Jul 15, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> If the religion disappeared tomorrow, my concern would be "can I draw unemployment."
> 
> Sure, not everyone's a bad guy, but how many are complicit through knowledge or deed? How many complain about the broad brush but do nothing to help their cause? Push comes to shove, how many will choose peace over their religion (this could be said for probably all religions)?
> 
> ...



I agree. The would be martyr, fundamentalist, jihad types are currently the highest profile "face" of Islam, like it or not.  

And to all the moderate Muslims out there, a great many of those jihadis see your watered down practice as religious backsliding.  Do we recall what the Koran says about apostates?

I'm still looking into what those progressive/ moderates are doing to clean their own wildly dysfunctional house and haven't found much yet.


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## Rapid (Jul 15, 2016)

What you see below is a perfect example of "moderate" Islam -- _waaa, we're the real victims! [insert excuse or conspiracy theory here]_

Moderate Islam and its apologism can go fuck itself.


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## asewland (Jul 15, 2016)

Hero man saved dozens in Nice by jumping into lorry cab to wrestle terrorist



> A man slowed the murderous rampage of a man driving a truck through a crowd in Nice by jumping into the cab and seizing his revolver.
> 
> The attacker, 31-year-old Mohamed Lahouaiej Bouhlel, was slowed when a heroic member of the public leapt onto the vehicle and wrestled the driver.
> 
> Police sources in Nice confirmed that the murderous two kilometre charge of the lorry might have been even longer if it had not been for the courage of a member of the public.



Good on the guy for stepping in the heat of the moment


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## AWP (Jul 15, 2016)

One thing I've noticed in some, but not all, of the video is people running in a straight line, Rickon style. Sure, some may not have known what was going on, but it reminded me to try and keep your head. What if he was herding them to a secondary attack/ kill zone?

Break the chain, break the cycle. The attacker could be pushing you in a direction for a reason.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 15, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> @R.Caerbannog
> If you're going to disagree you need to cough up why you're disagreeing. It's poor form otherwise.


I apologize. I figure the easiest way to kill a idea, is to wipe out the identity of the party at fault. After the attackers pass, treat them like the garbage they are. Burn their bodies, grind their bones into dust, and remove any humanizing traits. Eventually they will get the message that there is no paradise for them. That in death they are not safe, that their actions will be be as forgettable as the dust and ash they have become.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 15, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> He must not like Sophocles


I dunno. I ain't cultured or well read enough to decide what to think of Sophocles. I just don't agree with taking what ancient geniuses said as scripture, or whatever. We can use historic practices and modernize them to solve existing problems, hence the grinding of bones and ash.


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## AWP (Jul 15, 2016)

R.Caerbannog said:


> I apologize. I figure the easiest way to kill a idea, is to wipe out the identity of the party at fault. After the attackers pass, treat them like the garbage they are. Burn their bodies, grind their bones into dust, and remove any humanizing traits. Eventually they will get the message that there is no paradise for them. That in death they are not safe, that their actions will be be as forgettable as the dust and ash they have become.



That's a great concept and viable in an ideal world, but utterly impossible.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 15, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> That's a great concept and viable in an ideal world, but utterly impossible.


I disagree, when someone commits to an act of terrorism, human rights should go out the window. No next of kin notification, no nothing. As for religious officials demanding last rites and ceremonies, if they want to keep claiming non affiliation they'd best keep their mouths shut. Unless they want to jump in the same boat as the refuse. 

Just treat it as waste disposal and it's good. Nothing more, nothing less.


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## pardus (Jul 15, 2016)

R.Caerbannog said:


> I disagree, when someone commits to an act of terrorism, human rights should go out the window. No next of kin notification, no nothing. As for religious officials demanding last rites and ceremonies, if they want to keep claiming non affiliation they'd best keep their mouths shut. Unless they want to jump in the same boat as the refuse.
> 
> Just treat it as waste disposal and it's good. Nothing more, nothing less.



You're missing the point. We can all nod and say "yes" but it will never happen in this day and age.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 15, 2016)

R.Caerbannog said:


> I disagree, when someone commits to an act of terrorism, human rights should go out the window. No next of kin notification, no nothing. As for religious officials demanding last rites and ceremonies, if they want to keep claiming non affiliation they'd best keep their mouths shut. Unless they want to jump in the same boat as the refuse.
> 
> Just treat it as waste disposal and it's good. Nothing more, nothing less.



Meh, I was typing a long "something", but @pardus broke it down to the LCD.  Could not agree more.


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 15, 2016)

pardus said:


> You're missing the point. We can all nod and say "yes" but it will never happen in this day and age.





Ooh-Rah said:


> Meh, I was typing a long "something", but @pardus broke it down to the LCD.  Could not agree more.


The way I see it. Once there is enough outrage, it's possible to bring something like this into play. The pendulum swings in both directions.


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## RackMaster (Jul 15, 2016)

R.Caerbannog said:


> The way I see it. Once there is enough outrage, it's possible to bring something like this into play. The pendulum swings in both directions.



We're  outnumbered by the Libtards.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 15, 2016)

R.Caerbannog said:


> The way I see it. Once there is enough outrage, it's possible to bring something like this into play. The pendulum swings in both directions.



Maybe a decade ago...but social media will not permit that to happen.  We all have our "what should happen" fantasies, but when you really think about what will/can actually happen...you know better.


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## AWP (Jul 15, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Maybe a decade ago...but social media will not permit that to happen.  We all have our "what should happen" fantasies, but when you really think about what will/can actually happen...you know better.



A decade ago? When has it ever worked? It is bloody impossible to kill an idea. The rise of Christianity, the Church and the Cathars, Islam v. various internal and external sects...some record will survive and some believer will remain or discover the old idea and convert.

If y'all want to keep arguing, go right ahead, but you cannot kill an idea without wiping every trace of its memory from the earth. Every person, every record.


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## Florida173 (Jul 15, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I see and hear too many "all Muslims"  comments.  There are factions of Radical Islamic Fundlementists who are evil incarnate, willing to torture, kill and terrorize, all in the name of their religion. But...same could be said for certain Christian factions, and I say that as a practicing Christian.
> 
> One of my very best friends is from Bangladesh and a practicing Muslim. He loves this country with all his heart and knows and understands our history far better than most of those calling for him and his family to leave "their country". These attacks in the name of his religion hurt him immensely.
> 
> Dangerous path when we let ourself generalize with the word "all".



And Bangladesh is a major concern for a growing radicalization problem right now.. so I'm glad you found one. I've found a few bad Muslims that I like too. Quiet majority is bullshit if they are quiet.


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## Brill (Jul 15, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I see and hear too many "all Muslims"  comments.  There are factions of Radical Islamic Fundlementists who are evil incarnate, willing to torture, kill and terrorize, all in the name of their religion. But...same could be said for certain Christian factions, and I say that as a practicing Christian.



Oh bullshit. There is not one Christian teaching that teaches violence over love.

Muslims do what they do because their actions are legitimized by Qur'anic verses.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 15, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> And Bangladesh is a major concern for a growing radicalization problem right now.. so I'm glad you found one. I've found a few bad Muslims that I like too. Quiet majority is bullshit if they are quiet.



So tell me again why you disagree?  

Shahab has been my dear friend for nearly 20 years - he is not "quiet majority" and is very vocal of his displeasure about what his happening in the name of his religion.  




Florida173 said:


> I've found a few bad Muslims that I like too


What does this even mean?  If I take it literal, than you are saying all Muslims are bad?  Do you really live in that world where "every" and "all" are so easy to throw around?  Seriously...are you actually stating in writing, that in your opinion every single of the estimated 1.6 billion Muslims in the world are terrorists or just one influential Youtube video away from being one?


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## Florida173 (Jul 15, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> What does this even mean? If I take it literal, than you are saying all Muslims are bad? Do you really live in that world where "every" and "all" are so easy to throw around? Seriously...are you actually stating in writing, that in your opinion every single of the estimated 1.6 billion Muslims in the world are terrorists or just one influential Youtube video away from being one?



Cascading effect there. No. I mean that every friendly Muslim to me is actually considered a bad Muslim.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 15, 2016)

lindy said:


> Oh bullshit. *There is not one Christian teaching that teaches violence over love.*
> Muslims do what they do because their actions are legitimized by Qur'anic verses.



Hmmm..really?

The Crusades?  Are you aware of the Crusades?  The bleeping Pope convinced his knights to slaughter Muslims by promising them that it was not a sin to kill non-Christians or non believers and that if they went to fight in the holy land, all sins would be forgiven.  Sound familiar?  The only thing missing are the 72 virgins.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 15, 2016)

David Koresh of the Branch Davidians....Waco.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 15, 2016)




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## CQB (Jul 15, 2016)

Back to the main game, there is a firm belief that as ISIS comes under pressure, the external attacks will increase in foreign nations opposed to it, which is virtually everyone. There is a video circulating stating not to come to fight but stay at home and plan jihad where you are. 
France is an ideal target as it represent everything ISIS isn't & has an internal population of Muslims. 
I need not add that events like this will continue, but I will & for quite some time.


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## CQB (Jul 15, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> David Koresh of the Branch Davidians....Waco.


That also brings up a valid point; not all radicals are Islamic, or of ME appearance.


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## Brill (Jul 15, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Hmmm..really?
> 
> The Crusades?  Are you aware of the Crusades?  The bleeping Pope convinced his knights to slaughter Muslims by promising them that it was not a sin to kill non-Christians or non believers and that if they went to fight in the holy land, all sins would be forgiven.  Sound familiar?  The only thing missing are the 72 virgins.



Yes, EXACTLY the same. We're back in 1073.

Which Christian teaching did the Pope use to support his claim that Christ authorized violence in order to recover Christian property or to defend the church? The Bible does not authorize the Pope to absolve anyone of their actions and the Dictatus Papae was a political power grab vice anything related with Christianity.

The IS's actions and religious rulings are based on the Qur'an.


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## Florida173 (Jul 15, 2016)

CQB said:


> That also brings up a valid point; not all radicals are Islamic, or of ME appearance.



Of course. All northern Africa, up into the balkans, and over to Indonesia


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## Brill (Jul 15, 2016)

I call your attention to the last paragraph of Pope Urban II's speech at the Council of Clermont.

Medieval Sourcebook: Urban II: Speech at Council of Clermont, 1095, according to Fulcherof Chartres

Nowhere in the Bible does it grant this power from God to man. This is not a teaching but manipulation of power and followers.

Whereas the Qur'an absolutely authorizes and commands Muslims to follow the instructions of the Caliph. The problem with Abu Bakr is he as not elected by Islamic scholars and therefore is not the legitimate Caliph.


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## CQB (Jul 15, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Of course. All northern Africa, up into the balkans, and over to Indonesia



Weathermen & Tim McVeigh was where I was going with that.


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## DA SWO (Jul 15, 2016)

lindy said:


> Oh bullshit. There is not one Christian teaching that teaches violence over love.
> 
> Muslims do what they do because their actions are legitimized by Qur'anic verses.



I'll have to look, but while the Bible is often quoted as turning swords into plowshares, another chapter (Revelations?) talks about turning plowshares into swords.



Kraut783 said:


> David Koresh of the Branch Davidians....Waco.



I missed your point on this one?


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## R.Caerbannog (Jul 15, 2016)

I think it has to do with crazy coming in all flavors. Like if Baskin Robbins could grind shitheads up into diary concoctions and market them by type.  Or like the different Ben and Jerry flavors, except it's people.


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## SpitfireV (Jul 15, 2016)

Cunts will cunt. 

Sometimes they just need a cause.


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## pardus (Jul 15, 2016)

SpitfireV said:


> Cunts will cunt.
> 
> Sometimes they just need a cause.



Yep. We are seeing that in a significant number of home grown terrorists. Leading a life of crime until they "find" the one true faith, then is mayhem.


@lindy you've read the Old Testament right? :-/


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## SpitfireV (Jul 15, 2016)

pardus said:


> Yep. We are seeing that in a significant number of home grown terrorists. Leading a life of crime until they "find" the one true faith, then is mayhem.
> 
> 
> @lindy =



I can see quite a few similarities with the type of people who previously might have gone into a gang and people getting into Jihad. Not all of course.


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## AWP (Jul 16, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> The Crusades?  Are you aware of the Crusades?  The bleeping Pope convinced his knights to slaughter Muslims by promising them that it was not a sin to kill non-Christians or non believers and that if they went to fight in the holy land, all sins would be forgiven.  Sound familiar?  The only thing missing are the 72 virgins.



Seriously? We're going to drag out millennia old history and use it to compare/ justify something today?

You've lost your argument and managed to prove some people right. Islam hasn't changed, Christianity has. Bringing up the Crusades is one of the worst counterpoints to make in this debate because modern Christianity bears little resemblance to Christianity from 1000 years ago.

Slaughtering opponents was pretty common back then, especially the rank and file. It was a given and usually the only offense wasn't killing the masses, but the nobility. Muslim, Jew, and Christian alike played by those rules. War was barbaric back then and I can't even believe you're using it to try and make your point. It isn't close to today, not even WWII was close to war back then.


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## DA SWO (Jul 16, 2016)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Hmmm..really?
> 
> The Crusades?  Are you aware of the Crusades?  The bleeping Pope convinced his knights to slaughter Muslims by promising them that it was not a sin to kill non-Christians or non believers and that if they went to fight in the holy land, all sins would be forgiven.  Sound familiar?  The only thing missing are the 72 virgins.


Are you aware that the first Crusade was essentially a defensive battle to stop Islam from conquering all of Europe?


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 16, 2016)

@Freefalling -
@DA SWO

I don't often get into religious arguments (which now appears obvious) but that does not change how I feel about the subject.

- Saying all Muslims are bad is wrong.
- Saying all Christians are good is wrong.

My attempt to use the Crusades was not a good example, but that does not change how I feel about the first part of my post.

With that said, thank you for the history lesson (no sarcasm intended) - I wish I could better articulate my point on this topic, because I genuinely believe  demonizing all Muslims is a bad strategy, and not factual.


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## Brill (Jul 16, 2016)

pardus said:


> Yep. We are seeing that in a significant number of home grown terrorists. Leading a life of crime until they "find" the one true faith, then is mayhem.
> 
> 
> @lindy you've read the Old Testament right? :-/



Yes, and the OT laws therein were superceded by the New Testament and the blood of the Lamb.  The OT required sacrifices but after the crucifixion, it was no longer required (just one example).

Islam is rooted in warfare and violence to spread the word. Christianity is rooted in love, forgiveness, and faith.

Islamic faith is within the belief that subject either submits or dies.

There is not one accepted Christian leader who believes/preaches violence as a tennet of Christianity.  There are MULTIPLE accepted and respected Islamic officials who advocate jihad...because it is REQUIRED in the Qur'an.

@Ooh-Rah , please don't think of this as argumentative but rather a very good exchange of varying viewpoints.  I agree Muslims should not be demonized but people need to learn what Islam is and then decide.

I'm not anti-Islamic at all. More Muslims have tried to inflict harm on me personally but so have followers of Eastern Orthodox too but to a lesser degree.

Odd that a Buddist has yet to wish me harm!


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## Brill (Jul 16, 2016)

SpitfireV said:


> I can see quite a few similarities with the type of people who previously might have gone into a gang and people getting into Jihad. Not all of course.



Spot on!


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## Brill (Jul 16, 2016)

Freefalling said:


> Seriously? We're going to drag out millennia old history and use it to compare/ justify something today?



Black lives matter?


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## SpongeBob*24 (Jul 16, 2016)

Gloves off or this will continue to happen....


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## Ooh-Rah (Jul 16, 2016)

lindy said:


> @Ooh-Rah , *please don't think of this as argumentative *but rather a very good exchange of varying viewpoints. I agree Muslims should not be demonized but people need to learn what Islam is and then decide.



Not at all!  As I did more reading last night about the history of Christianity vs. Islam I was shocked at the similarities - which at some point may cause the start of a completely different thread...but for now I am content to have made my point, read others, and move on.

Side note to the newbs - Take note.  This is one of the things that makes this board so special...adults can disagree and squabble, without getting into name calling and insults.  Very rare in today's internet.


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## Locksteady (Jul 16, 2016)

A few points.

As far as the degree and amount of violence depicted in the texts, the Bible is undoubtedly the most violent and barbaric of any of the mythologies discussed in this thread.  The Old Testament, in fact, manages to do that all on its own even before including the New Testament.

Now, when @lindy asks what scriptural verses Pope Urban II used to justify his calls to war, we see that they are only used to give weight to his directing the crowd to be pious stewards by warding off corrupting influences in their society.  When justifying the call to war, Pope Urban II relies on appeals to duty and religious loyalty by citing how their 'brethren who live in the east' are in 'urgent need of your help'.  He also incentivizes them to fight by offering a complete pardoning of sins to any who die while answering his call to war. 

What should be noted is that the New Testament reference to Christ bringing in an era of peace and a 'new law' had none of the power that it does today to stop the papacy in that time period from calling Christians to war.  Christians viewed themselves far differently today that they did a millennium before now.  It is only in very recent history that Christians have been, as a whole, utilizing Jesus' 'new law of love' verse to justify pacifism since Constantine came to power and compiled the Bible. The Bible (among other religious doctrines) was and continues to be used selectively to justify political or personal goals within different time periods.

@Freefalling, the fact is that both 'religions' have changed in the centuries since their inceptions, and in important ways.  The regional and historical variations in the doctrinal interpretation and expression of Islam show this in the centuries before, during, and after the Ottoman Empire.  Assigning a unique fixedness onto what Islam is as a religion in comparison to other faiths simultaneously ignores the wide variations in Islam that have existed (and continue to exist) while groundlessly reducing Islam to one specific understanding or expression.

@Florida173's idea of bad Muslims being friendly to non-Muslims is one shared by ISIL that is taken from doctrine.  A large number of Christians in the West are technically bad ones (particularly in the West) as well when we take into account how many file for divorces based on financial burden, loss of interest, or just lacking commitment to the marriage.

The distinction that can be made between the Qur'an and the Bible is that the Bible presents more opportunities to reconcile morally unacceptable (by contemporary standards) passages with liberal ethical values.  This is because it is littered with many more useful contradictions than the Qur'an, and enough of these are centered around the words of Christianity's central figure.  The Qur'an, unfortunately, is a smaller text with a more unified message that is more challenging for modern Muslims to reconcile with modern liberal values, since there are significantly fewer doctrinal excuses for ignoring the status of women, the treatment of non-Muslims, or the repeated calls to war for religious supremacy.


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## Florida173 (Jul 16, 2016)

Locksteady said:


> @Freefalling, the fact is that both 'religions' have changed in the centuries since their inceptions, and in important ways. The regional and historical variations in the doctrinal interpretation and expression of Islam show this in the centuries before, during, and after the Ottoman Empire. Assigning a unique fixedness onto what Islam is as a religion in comparison to other faiths simultaneously ignores the wide variations in Islam that have existed (and continue to exist) while groundlessly reducing Islam to one specific understanding or expression.


It is heresy to suggest that Islam has gone through any reformation. Islam is the only true religion because it hasn't been perverted by the minds of men. Or so they believe.



Locksteady said:


> @Florida173's idea of bad Muslims being friendly to non-Muslims is one shared by ISIL that is taken from doctrine. A large number of Christians in the West are technically bad ones (particularly in the West) as well when we take into account how many file for divorces based on financial burden, loss of interest, or just lacking commitment to the marriage.


Nothing to do with each other. Good Christians are not trying to convert me or kill me.



Locksteady said:


> The distinction that can be made between the Qur'an and the Bible is that the Bible presents more opportunities to reconcile morally unacceptable (by contemporary standards) passages with liberal ethical values. This is because it is littered with many more useful contradictions than the Qur'an, and enough of these are centered around the words of Christianity's central figure. The Qur'an, unfortunately, is a smaller text with a more unified message that is more challenging for modern Muslims to reconcile with modern liberal values, since there are significantly fewer doctrinal excuses for ignoring the status of women, the treatment of non-Muslims, or the repeated calls to war for religious supremacy.


Being an apologist for Islam on the absurd notion that "the Bible is undoubtedly the most violent and barbaric of any of the mythologies discussed in this thread." is incredibly weak. 

The Koran doesn't need to be more than what it is because it has the sunna and the hadith to supplement, or in the modern era the religious leaders an opportunity to interpret the meaning through edicts.


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## Locksteady (Jul 16, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> It is heresy to suggest that Islam has gone through any reformation. Islam is the only true religion because it hasn't been perverted by the minds of men. Or so they believe.


Recognizing a piece of doctrine that emphasizes that Islam shouldn't be 'perverted by the minds of men' shouldn't be a barrier to recognizing the plethora of different interpretations and manifestations of the religion throughout history.  This includes the initial infighting between the first Islamic sects after Muhammad's death - there has always disagreement and discourse within the Muslim community as to the true interpretation of the doctrines.



Florida173 said:


> Nothing to do with each other.


Indeed they are.  The same logic can be applied to reference Christians as 'bad' or 'good'. 





Florida173 said:


> Good Christians are not trying to convert me or kill me.


If you define a good Christian as someone who wouldn't, then it makes it very easy to make that statement.  This definition has been in flux throughout history, as our glance into the Crusades made very apparent.



Florida173 said:


> Being an apologist for Islam on the absurd notion that "the Bible is undoubtedly the most violent and barbaric of any of the mythologies discussed in this thread." is incredibly weak.


It is absurd to suggest that it requires an apologist to recognize which religious text is the most violent, or to imply that recognizing that fact in the midst of a discussion where that question was raised condemns one as an apologist.



Florida173 said:


> The Koran doesn't need to be more than what it is because it has the sunna and the hadith to supplement, or in the modern era the religious leaders an opportunity to interpret the meaning through edicts.


Throughout history, Muslim leaders have produced varying interpretations of the text with the sincere belief that the process in itself wasn't making it 'more than what it is'.  The idea that it necessarily did is just another notion among many in the pot of Islamic discourse.


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## Brill (Jul 16, 2016)

@Locksteady , you wrote a lot of words to justify your position but cited not ONE source to support it. Without references, your assertions are as valid as @Freefalling 's viewpoint on clowns.

As far as your assertion that the Bible is violent, where does it demand that I kill in God's name?  Not punishment, but to spread the religion.


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## Kraut783 (Jul 16, 2016)

heh....a debate on two books written by man.

Religious debates are pointless....especially if you are looking for facts to support ones side....scholars have been doing this for centuries.

This is all about what someones faith/belief is....regardless if it's right or wrong in that religion.  They will interpret what they want to interpret....and act on what they want to act on.


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## RackMaster (Jul 16, 2016)

Christians are not isolated to the West.

Christian militias in Central African Republic 'burnt witches at stake', says UN report

Christian militias take bloody revenge on Muslims in Central African Republic


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## TLDR20 (Jul 16, 2016)

lindy said:


> Black lives matter?



Do you even understand the complaints of BLM? Or is it only a punchline to you?


lindy said:


> @Locksteady , you wrote a lot of words to justify your position but cited not ONE source to support it. Without references, your assertions are as valid as @Freefalling 's viewpoint on clowns.



Or your's on BLM?



lindy said:


> As far as your assertion that the Bible is violent, where does it demand that I kill in God's name?  Not punishment, but to spread the religion.



Considering the amount of stuff you post without legit sources and pass of as sarcasm, I would be awfully careful of Calling someone out.


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## Florida173 (Jul 16, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Do you even understand the complaints of BLM? Or is it only a punchline to you?


Does BLM even know?


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## TLDR20 (Jul 16, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Does BLM even know?



Trying to pretend it is a 1000 year old complaint is ignorant of all facts, including US history.


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## Florida173 (Jul 16, 2016)

Kraut783 said:


> Religious debates are pointless


Only when someone is defending their own religion. Otherwise it is completely acceptable to criticise and discuss other religions


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## Locksteady (Jul 16, 2016)

lindy said:


> @Locksteady , you wrote a lot of words to justify your position but cited not ONE source to support it. Without references, your assertions are as valid as @Freefalling 's viewpoint on clowns.


 No dissimilar to the validity of your sourceless assertion of presenting Christianity as being founded on 'love, forgiveness and faith' - particularly if taken from a book that was written hundreds of years (decades in the New Testament's case) later by supporting apologists and then selectively compiled by centuries later politically powerful religious figureheads (bishops).

I am not sure which of my statements you contend with specifically.

My description of how Pope Urban II used minimal doctrine to incite Christians to war came directly from the link you provided, as did my statement on violent scriptures in the Bible (strangely that link with violence percentages is nowhere to be seen now, or I'm having a bad time finding it in the thread).

The fact that Islam has been subject to shifting interpretations and manifestations is basic history, but if you are sincere in challenging that,  you can start by looking over the New Encylopedia of Islam by Cyril Glass.  The Oxford Handbook of Islamic Theology will also help if you want a heavier, more in-depth read.

A great book with primary sources that depict how Christians from a different era viewed themselves is in Emilie Amt and S.J. Allen's "The Crusades: A Reader."  Another author who goes further into depth is Jonathan Riley-Smith.  I recommend "The Crusades:  A History."



lindy said:


> @LocksteadyAs far as your assertion that the Bible is violent, where does it demand that I kill in God's name?  Not punishment, but to spread the religion.


If you're referring to outstanding decrees that aren't historically specific and directed towards against particular long-dead enemies, it doesn't, and I never claimed that it did.  In fact, I already established that at the end of my first post as being one of the reasons for contemporary Muslims, in contrast to Christians, having difficulty reconciling some of the doctrine with the Western liberal tradition.


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## Florida173 (Jul 16, 2016)

Comparing contemporary Islam to a few modern interpretations of Christianity of 700 years ago is crazy talk


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## Kraut783 (Jul 16, 2016)

Florida173 said:


> Only when someone is defending their own religion. Otherwise it is completely acceptable to criticise and discuss other religions



I enjoy debates about religion....but trying to argue who is right point by point is pretty pointless.  It is way to complex of a subject...but healthy discussions, absolutely.


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## Brill (Jul 16, 2016)

TLDR20 said:


> Do you even understand the complaints of BLM?



No, I do not. I would be interested to hear your view on them though.


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## Red Flag 1 (Jul 16, 2016)

Throughout history, nothing has divided mankind more than religion has. 

To argue fine points of religion, any religion, only opens the door to further argument.


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## Brill (Jul 24, 2016)

Good idea: attack the network!

After Nice, Fight Back With Better Spying


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## Gunz (Jul 24, 2016)

Nothing wrong with individual spirituality, but when you get a bunch of bozos together worshipping some old bearded dude it can become fucking dangerous. Too much money, blood, time and effort wasted throughout history by religions trying to annihilate each other.

If we spent all that energy and effort on scientific research and space exploration etc we might find some real answers to some pertinent questions...and maybe even figure out a way to save this fucking rock before we drown in our own shit.


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