# How to Beat the F-22



## AWP (Jul 31, 2012)

We put too much emphasis on BLOS air combat IMO and the Germans used that to their advantage. Maybe the AF can spin this and say the pilots didn't have enough oxygen to perform properly...

http://www.wired.com/dangerroom/2012/07/f-22-germans/



> In mid-June, 150 German airmen and eight twin-engine, non-stealthy Typhoons arrived at Eielson Air Force Base in Alaska for an American-led Red Flag exercise involving more than 100 aircraft from Germany, the U.S. Air Force and Army, NATO, Japan, Australia and Poland. Eight times during the two-week war game, individual German Typhoons flew against single F-22s in basic fighter maneuvers meant to simulate a close-range dogfight.
> The results were a surprise to the Germans and presumably the Americans, too. “We were evenly matched,” Maj. Marc Gruene told _Combat Aircraft’_s Jamie Hunter. The key, Gruene said, is to get as close as possible to the F-22 … and stay there. “They didn’t expect us to turn so aggressively.”
> Gruene said the Raptor excels at fighting from beyond visual range with its high speed and altitude, sophisticated radar and long-range AMRAAM missiles. But in a slower, close-range tangle — which pilots call a “merge” — the bigger and heavier F-22 is at a disadvantage. “As soon as you get to the merge … the Typhoon doesn’t necessarily have to fear the F-22,” Gruene said.


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## DasBoot (Jul 31, 2012)

Seems like the same situation we faced in th 60's during Vietnam when too much emphasis was placed on missiles and not on guns and dog fighting. Hopefully the AF can come up with a solution to the close combat issue.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 31, 2012)

I guess the F22 guys would say you have to get that close to the F22s in the first place.


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## AWP (Jul 31, 2012)

Marauder06 said:


> I guess the F22 guys would say you have to get that close to the F22s in the first place.


 
True, plus they are being paired with F-15C's which are presumably better dogfighters, the fact remains that to avoid a merge you're saying that your missiles will kill everything out there. History has proven that train of thought to be utter nonsense and yet people still tout the BLOS advantages of the F-22. If it sucks as a dogfighter then it's BLOS capabilities have to be nearly flawless and I don't see that happening.


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## DA SWO (Jul 31, 2012)

Not going to discuss tactics, but RF really isn't a realistic venue for the F-22.
BLOS is great on the initial strikes, where you presumably clean his clock effectively allowing other aircraft to pick off who is left.
You also have to remember the Typhoon and Raptor are the same generation.  Stealth does not equate maneuverability.
We need to have one US only RF a year.


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## talonlm (Jul 31, 2012)

Any airplane can be shot down.  Any time.  Especially when flown by arrogant crews who do not respect their foes.  Exactly why we need the international Red Flag and to train with other nations when we get the chance. 

That being said, everyone out there compares their jet to the F-22.  Every time one gets popped in an exercise somehwere it's international news.  Fifteen years since it's first delivery, it's still _the_ fighter to beat.  That alone should say something.


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## SpitfireV (Jul 31, 2012)

Yeah I agree with that. With the layers of airpower you guys have it would be quite an achievement (depending on who you're fighting, of course) to get that close. Obviously that's quite a blanket statement. 

That said, I think the F22 pilots underestimated the Typhoon, based on what this article said. Maybe a touch of arrogance or overconfidence in their machines.


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## Marauder06 (Jul 31, 2012)

Or an unrealistic training scenario.  Could be any or all of those.


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## DA SWO (Aug 1, 2012)

talonlm said:


> Any airplane can be shot down. Any time. Especially when flown by arrogant crews who do not respect their foes. Exactly why we need the international Red Flag and to train with other nations when we get the chance.
> 
> That being said, everyone out there compares their jet to the F-22. Every time one gets popped in an exercise somehwere it's international news. Fifteen years since it's first delivery, it's still _the_ fighter to beat. That alone should say something.


I am not saying do away with the international game, I am saying have a US only event so we don't worry about giving data away.
SAC used to safety wire switches close on their aircraft's EW systems so a crew wouldn't accidentally use "the good stuff" at a RF.  They didn't want the international players to know our real EW capability.

The F-22 isn't untouchable, but I am willing to bet a combination of arrogance, and watered down tactics helped.


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## SpitfireV (Aug 1, 2012)

You guys do, or did, have that, when the ahem, "other people's assests" would come out and play.


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## talonlm (Aug 1, 2012)

SOWT said:


> I am not saying do away with the international game, I am saying have a US only event so we don't worry about giving data away.


 
I imagine that is a fairly common occurance.  All the more reason to play games with other people's toys now and again.


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## formerBrat (Aug 1, 2012)

I am going to ask a question that I will freely admit might be completely ignorant, but do the tactics in these mock scenarios prevent the thrust vectoring use that is on the F-22's or is that something that would be a disadvantage in a close in squabble between fighter jets. I could envision that during a high speed merge as they call it, that might not always be feasible, but I will have to plead ignorance again. I can't see it being an advantage for the beyond visual range stuff or if I'm assuming correctly, that's the same as BLOS (beyond line of sight?).

IIRC, there was a big uproar over an exercise where the Indian Air Force had some success against the F-22, but when I read more, I thought I remember there being some really unrealistic odds and stacking the deck against the F-22's, not taking anything away from the Indian Air Force, cause I don't know anything about them, just wondering if some of the stated possibilities of overestimation of the machine's capabilities and underestimation of opponents along with any "watering down" of tactics are contributing factors.

As far as the Typhoon goes, I know nothing about it, but I've always thought I saw a lot of the F-16 in it for some reason, don't know why. Obviously major differences, but I guess the nose and cockpit area as well as the silhouette show a little resemblance to me.


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## TLDR20 (Aug 2, 2012)

I think tat if the pilots were capable of using these airframes to the max potential they would be unbeatable. However using the F-22 with artificial limits in place will always lead to a loss. Let our pilots improvise, and stay in their envelope and they will win.


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## SpitfireV (Aug 2, 2012)

The Indian Air Force needs to learn how to fly their aircraft first before they learn to starting fighting with them.


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## CDG (Aug 2, 2012)

The military has always set up unrealistic training scenarios designed to make one side or another fail.  I remember running a VBSS scenario and having one of the cert team guys claim he took out half the team on our way up to the bridge.  When asked what his shooting position was, he proceeded to hold a Beretta 9mm pistol in one hand, stand on one leg, and lean sideways over a bridge railing using his other hand and foot for balance.  When I told him he was full of shit and there was no way he would have ever hit anything he proceeded to rant about his expert marksmanship ribbon for a good 2-3 minutes.


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## SkrewzLoose (Aug 2, 2012)

CDG said:


> ~snip
> his expert marksmanship ribbon for a good 2-3 minutes.


I got one of those in boot camp.  It's right beside my "you didn't wet the bed for 6 weeks" ribbon.


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## talonlm (Aug 2, 2012)

formerBrat said:


> I am going to ask a question that I will freely admit might be completely ignorant, but do the tactics in these mock scenarios prevent the thrust vectoring use that is on the F-22's or is that something that would be a disadvantage in a close in squabble between fighter jets. I could envision that during a high speed merge as they call it, that might not always be feasible, but I will have to plead ignorance again. I can't see it being an advantage for the beyond visual range stuff or if I'm assuming correctly, that's the same as BLOS (beyond line of sight?).


 
Close in, I imagien the F-22 would be on par with pretty much anything else out there--except for newer Gen V fighters.  Mixing thrust vectoring in with forward carnards and a HMCOS and a HOBS engagements and I can see the F-22 being presented with real problems.  Remeber that the F-22 design is over twenty years old.  When she was built, an oppenent getting the merge was all but laughable, and it's still a stretch now.  AMRAAMs are not infallible and our enemies are not simply going to roll over and die.  That being the case, it's not like the F-22 is a toothless drone tooling around in a circle waiting to get nailed.  And it's not like these changes are not being addressed and corrected.   The F-22 is still the fighter everyone compares their systems to, still the regarrded as the very best.  It's just the nature of our press and our way of doing business that makes her shortcomings very public issues.


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