# .A Confusing Path to MARSOC



## Gurahiyi (Mar 7, 2017)

Greetings,

I am a high school senior. I am  interested in both the Marines and College at this time (I am a high achieving student with considerable scholarships and numerous acceptance letters). I have a... rather atypical idea for my career path and would like your take and advice on it. Upon graduation of HS this May, I will enlist in the Marine Corp under a 0321 MOS (Recon) for four years, hopefully shipping out no later than August. This is to expose myself to the Marine Corp lifestyle, allow personal growth, and meet a personal obligation to serve my country for at least a short time. Following that 4 year enlistment, I will attend college to pursue a batchelor's degree. This should not take me more than 3 years. Following that, I would like to re-enlist but for OCS, and then pursue a 0372 MOS (MARSOC) as a 2nd LT. I am hoping that the prior enlisted grunt experience will allow me to be a more capable leader and will have prepared me for  A&S (provided I keep training throughout college, of course). One question I have currently is would it be possible for me to go straight from Recon to MARSOC (skipping the college break) and then go for the degree and OCS while still in the military (while retaining the 0372 MOS of course)?

Regards,
A Curious Student


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## EasyDay (Mar 8, 2017)

Gurahiyi said:


> hopefully shipping out no later than August



look forward to around a 9 month wait if you plan on joining with an infantry contract. Its part of the reason I started looking at other branches. Many people want to be grunts but the Marine Corps simply cant take everyone at once. If you are smart, enlist now and start the Delayed Entry Program now so you will ship sooner rather than latter. 

Above all keep at it, and start getting physically fit now. Being a Marine Corps grunt is no easy task and will require your full commitment.


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## Gurahiyi (Mar 8, 2017)

EasyDay said:


> look forward to around a 9 month wait if you plan on joining with an infantry contract. Its part of the reason I started looking at other branches. Many people want to be grunts but the Marine Corps simply cant take everyone at once. If you are smart, enlist now and start the Delayed Entry Program now so you will ship sooner rather than latter.
> 
> Above all keep at it, and start getting physically fit now. Being a Marine Corps grunt is no easy task and will require your full commitment.



I have been training hard physically for probably the past 2 months or so now, and was not badly off to begin with. I have run more 5k's than I can count, 2 marathons, and I'm going to be running and Iron Man and Tough Mudder in the spring. I stay physically active, although I will readily admit I am not at the level which I want to be when I enter recon and apply for A&S. I will keep working hard until I reach that point. I recently came across the 10-week MARSOC fitness prep guide and will likely start following it religiously shortly here.  I understand that the 03xx MOS is highly desirable (I'm assuming because of the more or less second class reputation of POGs) but I was under the impression that 0321 is fairly easy to get into (by which I mean they have a very high drop rate due to difficulty so they take a lot of applicants). By the time I attend boot camp, it is my intention to be more than capable of a 15-17 minute 3 mile run, 500m swim in 10 minutes, treading water for upwards of an hour (I will be using the frog technique I believe), a solid 40 pullups, and 100 pushups at a go. If you have any suggestions for additional goals I should try and meet, or modifications for my current ones, I would be glad to hear of them. I cannot enlist quite yet as I have three more weeks before receiving all my college replies. Towards the end of March I should  have decided one way or the other.


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## Teufel (Mar 8, 2017)

You shouldn't have a problem getting a recon contract. It's different than an 03xx contract. Passing BRC is another story. MARSOC loves getting Recon Marines at ITC but not many cross over. At least on the west coast. That's up to the individual Marine though. 

There is no such thing as a MARSOC 2nd Lt, prior enlisted or otherwise.


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## Ball N' Chain (Mar 8, 2017)

Gurahiyi said:


> By the time I attend boot camp, it is my intention to be more than capable of a* 15-17 minute 3 mile run, 500m swim in 10 minutes, treading water for upwards of an hour (I will be using the frog technique I believe), a solid 40 pullups, and 100 pushups at a go.*



Those numbers would be killer, especially if you mean 40 pull ups without a dismount, although I would have to see it to believe it!


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## Gurahiyi (Mar 8, 2017)

Ball N' Chain said:


> Those numbers would be killer, especially if you mean 40 pull ups without a dismount, although I would have to see it to believe it!


I fully grasp how difficult those numbers would be to reach, but given I have enough time and determination, I feel certain I could meet that goal.


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## Gurahiyi (Mar 8, 2017)

Teufel said:


> You shouldn't have a problem getting a recon contract. It's different than an 03xx contract. Passing BRC is another story. MARSOC loves getting Recon Marines at ITC but not many cross over. At least on the west coast. That's up to the individual Marine though.
> 
> There is no such thing as a MARSOC 2nd Lt, prior enlisted or otherwise.


Thank you. I had no idea regarding the command structure of MARSOC and simply went with what I thought was logical. I will correct that line of thinking immediately. Is there a reason Recon Marines do not frequently cross over to MARSOC?


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## Teufel (Mar 8, 2017)

Gurahiyi said:


> Thank you. I had no idea regarding the command structure of MARSOC and simply went with what I thought was logical. I will correct that line of thinking immediately. Is there a reason Recon Marines do not frequently cross over to MARSOC?


They choose not to.


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## EasyDay (Mar 8, 2017)

Teufel said:


> They choose not to.



Can you explain why that is please?


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## Teufel (Mar 8, 2017)

EasyDay said:


> Can you explain why that is please?


Why didn't @TLDR20 leave the SF to go the 75th or @Ranger Psych go to the Q course? I suppose they were happy where they were at and what they were doing. 

The two units have different missions and different cultures. It's not a linear progression.


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## Hillclimb (Mar 8, 2017)

I'm assuming you want to become a Special Operations Officer (SOO) 0370.

With how you want to go about that, it would look something more like this:

4 years enlisted
3 years college
OCS  - IOC/TBS/whichever officer schools you need (@Teufel, Sir can you help me out with this timeline and career designation?)
Then you will need to get career designated
2 months attend A&S and get selected
Wait for the January or August ITC, whichever has room for you
9 months at ITC to obtain 0370 MOS
Team Commanders Course 3 weeks
Hit the Battalions

That's in a perfect world. No injuries, retreads, minimal holdovers between courses, etc.


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## Teufel (Mar 8, 2017)

OCS can be done while you are a college student. TBS is 6 months and the follow one MOS schools are 3 to 6 months long depending on which you do, not accounting for lag time between TBS and your MOS school.  Normally you will do three years at your first unit before you can go to MARSOC or anywhere else for that matter. This normally coincides with when you get career designated.


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## Teufel (Mar 8, 2017)

Keep in mind that we have outlined an 11 year road map. Lots can happen in that time to make you adjust your goals like getting burned out, getting married, having kids, etc. Focus on passing boot camp for now.


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## The Hate Ape (Mar 10, 2017)

Uh, if you want to be an 0370 why don't you just attend school instead of enlisting? I'm betting 10 bucks right now redeemable in 2022 that you do not go to OCS under this current plan and either attend MARSOC as a grunt who didn't pass the Recon indoc or that you stay as an enlisted Recon Marine.

Go to college, have sex with a lot of women, and stop talking like Universal Soldier or some shit.


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## The Hate Ape (Mar 10, 2017)

oh and another little tidbit:

Most SOOs (0370s) barely skate by with two deployments before moving out of the teams, MOST of them only get one deployment. That can be any deployment too and may land you in a non combat AO which will leave you relatively butt-hurt from all the training you completed.

Research more of the job and less "frog kicks" or whatever.


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## Gurahiyi (Mar 11, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> Uh, if you want to be an 0370 why don't you just attend school instead of enlisting? I'm betting 10 bucks right now redeemable in 2022 that you do not go to OCS under this current plan and either attend MARSOC as a grunt who didn't pass the Recon indoc or that you stay as an enlisted Recon Marine.
> 
> Go to college, have sex with a lot of women, and stop talking like Universal Soldier or some shit.


 Well Sir,

You see, while I would like nothing more than to go straight to OCS, I have heard one to many stories of incompetent officers getting their men killed. It is my hope that prior enlisted service will allow for me to be more effective in the field and less likely to carelessly endanger those under my command. I can assure you it was not my intention to talk like "Universal Soldier or some shit".


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## Gurahiyi (Mar 11, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> oh and another little tidbit:
> 
> Most SOOs (0370s) barely skate by with two deployments before moving out of the teams, MOST of them only get one deployment. That can be any deployment too and may land you in a non combat AO which will leave you relatively butt-hurt from all the training you completed.
> 
> Research more of the job and less "frog kicks" or whatever.



Thank you for this information. I was unaware of that "tidbit".


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## AWP (Mar 11, 2017)

Gurahiyi said:


> I have heard one to many stories of incompetent officers getting their men killed.



Really? Do tell. That is a very serious allegation, so I hope you have supporting evidence from credible sources.


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## Gurahiyi (Mar 11, 2017)

AWP said:


> Really? Do tell. That is a very serious allegation, so I hope you have supporting evidence from credible sources.



It is not an allegation by any means. I neither have nor had any intention of accusing a given officer as such. It was a reference to certain officers of whom I have read in various biographies, whether from recent times (Operation Iraqi Freedom) to times quite well past (WWI).


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## Teufel (Mar 11, 2017)

Commissioning source has no bearing on competence or incompetence. Character is by far the defining factor.


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## Teufel (Mar 11, 2017)

Gurahiyi said:


> It was a reference to certain officers of whom I have read in various biographies, whether from recent times (Operation Iraqi Freedom) to times quite well past (WWI).



It boggles the mind to think that our military has performed so well in so many conflicts over the past century with such incompetent officer leadership!


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## Marauder06 (Mar 11, 2017)

Gurahiyi said:


> Well Sir,
> 
> You see, while I would like nothing more than to go straight to OCS, I have heard one too many stories of incompetent officers getting their men killed. It is my hope that prior enlisted service will allow for me to be more effective in the field and less likely to carelessly endanger those under my command. I can assure you it was not my intention to talk like "Universal Soldier or some shit".



I think I understand what you meant, but I suggest you choose your words more carefully in the future.  There are number of officers on this board, including a certain Marine officer, who managed to turn out OK without enlisting first.

One's source of commission or prior service status are, as far as I can tell after more than 21 years in the military, in no way correlated with successful officership in the long run.  One could be successful as an officer after prior enlisted service, or one might end up a complete failure.  Good enlisted troops don't always make good officers, and vice versa. 

If you want to be enlisted, go be enlisted.  If you want to be an officer, go be an officer.  Or enlist first and THEN become an officer.  But don't badmouth (or say things that might be interpreted that way) any part of any service... especially when you haven't yet earned that right.


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## Gunz (Mar 11, 2017)

Gurahiyi said:


> It is not an allegation by any means. I neither have nor had any intention of accusing a given officer as such. It was a reference to certain officers of whom I have read in various biographies, whether from recent times (Operation Iraqi Freedom) to times quite well past (WWI).



My advice to you would be that if you have the opportunity to go to college, take it. Not everybody gets the chance to go to college after high school. I didn't. Go to college, kick ass in college, and then think about the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps will give you the knowledge and training to be an officer. If you've got brains, guts, and genuinely care about the men you command, you'll be a good officer. Like @Teufel has told you, it's a character thing. Are you honest? Do you have integrity? Are you an honorable person? 

My feeling about anybody in a leadership position is, you either got it or you don't. And if you got it, your men will follow you up shit alley any day of the week.


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## Dust34 (Mar 11, 2017)

The first Officer I had the opportunity to serve with (for some essay, I was a grunt) was just as fresh to the Marine Corps as my piers and I. (He was not prior enlisted) He was a damn good Platoon commander, he payed attention, asked questions when he did not know something, he made mistakes and he learned from those mistakes. As I had stated he did not have any experience prior and was a great Officer.

     The second Officer I had the opportunity to serve with was a Mustang (Prior Enlisted) he was a little more hands on, and always lead by example. A great leader and a prior Enlisted Grunt.

     Granted they had differences in their approaches but it did not take away from their effectiveness as leaders. As stated above if your going to go Enlisted or Officer choose one and do it. If your dead set on doing it the way you currently imagine (does not appear that way as you still seem conflicted) then do it that way, just remember that shit happens. Its a long road ahead either direction you choose. Good luck.


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 11, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> I think I understand what you meant, but I suggest you choose your words more carefully in the future.  There are number of officers on this board, including a certain Marine officer, who managed to turn out OK without enlisting first.
> 
> One's source of commission or prior service status are, as far as I can tell after more than 21 years in the military, in no way correlated with successful officership in the long run.  One could be successful as an officer after prior enlisted service, or one might end up a complete failure.  Good enlisted troops don't always make good officers, and vice versa.
> 
> If you want to be enlisted, go be enlisted.  If you want to be an officer, go be an officer.  Or enlist first and THEN become an officer.  But don't badmouth (or say things that might be interpreted that way) any part of any service... especially when you haven't yet earned that right.



I had the opportunity to see the enlisted to officer change go very badly for an extended family member. He was an enlisted reserve USMC L/Cpl Combat Enginer while in undergrad. After undergrad, he went through OCS, then right into TBS coming out as a 2Lt with a flying slot. He really missed being a Marine, down on the ground in all the grunge and dirt.

He pretty much self eleminated from UPT in Pensacola and opted for a slot as a Combat Enginer in the Second Marine Division. He was back at the very place he wanted to be, now as an O-1. He spoke often of how close he was with the guys under him. They really respected him for having been prior enlisted. He said he would do anything to protect his men, and they would do the same for him. His CO was a 0-4 selecte and he spent a lot of time butting heads with his CO, on behalf of his men. He never made the change over to officer from enlisted. His identity was still with the enlisted ranks, and it cost him his career. The kid had military school from highschool thru his BS. Brains, and he loved being a Marine, but he never made the change over and was passed over for O-3.


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## digrar (Mar 12, 2017)

Gurahiyi said:


> Well Sir,
> 
> You see, while I would like nothing more than to go straight to OCS, I have heard one to many stories of incompetent officers getting their men killed. It is my hope that prior enlisted service will allow for me to be more effective in the field and less likely to carelessly endanger those under my command. I can assure you it was not my intention to talk like "Universal Soldier or some shit".



Shit humans make shit officers, prior service is not a magic bullet for competence.


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## Gurahiyi (Mar 12, 2017)

Teufel said:


> It boggles the mind to think that our military has performed so well in so many conflicts over the past century with such incompetent officer leadership!



You misunderstand me sir. I do not mean that such officers are at all common, simply that they do exist. I would assume that even as they exist in the US Military, then logically they may well occur in the armed forces of every nationality. I did not intend to cause offense, and apologize profusely if such is the case.


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## Gurahiyi (Mar 12, 2017)

Marauder06 said:


> I think I understand what you meant, but I suggest you choose your words more carefully in the future.  There are number of officers on this board, including a certain Marine officer, who managed to turn out OK without enlisting first.
> 
> One's source of commission or prior service status are, as far as I can tell after more than 21 years in the military, in no way correlated with successful officership in the long run.  One could be successful as an officer after prior enlisted service, or one might end up a complete failure.  Good enlisted troops don't always make good officers, and vice versa.
> 
> If you want to be enlisted, go be enlisted.  If you want to be an officer, go be an officer.  Or enlist first and THEN become an officer.  But don't badmouth (or say things that might be interpreted that way) any part of any service... especially when you haven't yet earned that right.



I understand. I apologize for causing offense sir, I know full well I haven't earned any right to pass judgement. That was not my intention by any means. Such a slip up in wording will not occur again.


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## Gurahiyi (Mar 12, 2017)

Ocoka One said:


> My advice to you would be that if you have the opportunity to go to college, take it. Not everybody gets the chance to go to college after high school. I didn't. Go to college, kick ass in college, and then think about the Marine Corps. The Marine Corps will give you the knowledge and training to be an officer. If you've got brains, guts, and genuinely care about the men you command, you'll be a good officer. Like @Teufel has told you, it's a character thing. Are you honest? Do you have integrity? Are you an honorable person?
> 
> My feeling about anybody in a leadership position is, you either got it or you don't. And if you got it, your men will follow you up shit alley any day of the week.



Thank you for your advice. My interest in college is largely based on finances. Academically speaking, I have done fairly well for myself. 3.87 HS GPA (unweighted), 32 ACT, distinguished graduation plan (Texas), and 3.84 college GPA (dual-enrollment), multiple AP and honors classes, etc. Both GPAs would be 4.0 if it were not for foreign language classes, in which I am admittedly a poor student (Latin, Spanish, and Russian). I am competing for several full ride scholarships right now, and am waiting to see how they turn out. If  I were to win one, I would almost certainly attend college first. If not, the matter of attending college is up for debate. 

In terms of character, I do not think one might accurately judge him or herself at all times. However, based on the letters of recommendation I have received for my college applications, I would think that I can answer all three questions with "yes". I am certain, if nothing else, that I would have my men's best interests at heart.


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## Gurahiyi (Mar 12, 2017)

Red Flag 1 said:


> I had the opportunity to see the enlisted to officer change go very badly for an extended family member. He was an enlisted reserve USMC L/Cpl Combat Enginer while in undergrad. After undergrad, he went through OCS, then right into TBS coming out as a 2Lt with a flying slot. He really missed being a Marine, down on the ground in all the grunge and dirt.
> 
> He pretty much self eleminated from UPT in Pensacola and opted for a slot as a Combat Enginer in the Second Marine Division. He was back at the very place he wanted to be, now as an O-1. He spoke often of how close he was with the guys under him. They really respected him for having been prior enlisted. He said he would do anything to protect his men, and they would do the same for him. His CO was a 0-4 selecte and he spent a lot of time butting heads with his CO, on behalf of his men. He never made the change over to officer from enlisted. His identity was still with the enlisted ranks, and it cost him his career. The kid had military school from highschool thru his BS. Brains, and he loved being a Marine, but he never made the change over and was passed over for O-3.



I am confused to some degree. While career wise it is obviously a poor choice, would defending your men from the higher ups be considered a poor choice in general? I was under the impression the priorities of an officer are only the mission and the men.  If disagreeing with the CO was necessary to meet those two priorities, then one should do so regardless of the personal repercussions which might follow.  Of course I am inexperienced in these matters so  if I am wrong, please correct me.


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 12, 2017)

Gurahiyi said:


> I am confused to some degree. While career wise it is obviously a poor choice, would defending your men from the higher ups be considered a poor choice in general? I was under the impression the priorities of an officer are only the mission and the men.  If disagreeing with the CO was necessary to meet those two priorities, then one should do so regardless of the personal repercussions which might follow.  Of course I am inexperienced in these matters so  if I am wrong, please correct me.



I am a bit out of my lane here. I have never been a Marine, and I have never been enlisted. My observation is just that, and it was pretty clear to me what was going on with this lad. I think standing up for your men is a good trait for commanders to have. The plan can go wrong when you continually butt heads with your CO, for any reason. There are other ways to get things done for your men.

My $.02.


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## The Hate Ape (Mar 12, 2017)

I am so glad that others have had a chance to chime in before I saw your responses.

You sound like the guy who gets high & tights months before going to bootcamp.

Had you made that little remark in person about getting men killed - I'd have put you on the fucking ground.

I don't care how you meant it.


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## TLDR20 (Mar 12, 2017)

I served with an enlisted 18 series soldier that was a prior infantry O in the Marines..


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## Gunz (Mar 12, 2017)

A good leader can retain the respect of his men and his superiors. The two are not mutually exclusive. There doesn't have to be a conflict. I think @Red Flag 1 meant that the Marine in his example tried to win the respect of his men by siding with them more than he should have. An officer cannot be a union shop leader...nor should he try to win a popularity contest. He must retain his authority.


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## Red Flag 1 (Mar 12, 2017)

Ocoka One said:


> A good leader can retain the respect of his men and his superiors. The two are not mutually exclusive. There doesn't have to be a conflict. I think @Red Flag 1 meant that the Marine in his example tried to win the respect of his men by siding with them more than he should have. An officer cannot be a union shop leader...nor should he try to win a popularity contest. He must retain his authority.



Nicely said.


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## Gunz (Mar 12, 2017)

Gurahiyi said:


> I am confused to some degree. While career wise it is obviously a poor choice, would defending your men from the higher ups be considered a poor choice in general? I was under the impression the priorities of an officer are only the mission and the men.  If disagreeing with the CO was necessary to meet those two priorities, then one should do so regardless of the personal repercussions which might follow.  Of course I am inexperienced in these matters so  if I am wrong, please correct me.



You're wrong. It's not about "defending your men from higher-ups," it's about obeying and carrying out orders. You seem to be under the impression that conflict is common between junior officers and their superiors. Read my signature line, a quote from my company commander, a man I had great respect for...but he wasn't our buddy, he wasn't some kind of advocate. We knew he cared about his men because he wouldn't ask us to do anything he wouldn't do himself. He made sure his men had the gear and support they needed to conduct their mission and kill the enemy. Forget all this shit about  "defending your men from higher-ups." You lead your men.


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## Gurahiyi (Mar 12, 2017)

Ocoka One said:


> A good leader can retain the respect of his men and his superiors. The two are not mutually exclusive. There doesn't have to be a conflict. I think @Red Flag 1 meant that the Marine in his example tried to win the respect of his men by siding with them more than he should have. An officer cannot be a union shop leader...nor should he try to win a popularity contest. He must retain his authority.



Thank you for that clarification.


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## Gurahiyi (Mar 12, 2017)

Ocoka One said:


> You're wrong. It's not about "defending your men from higher-ups," it's about obeying and carrying out orders. You seem to be under the impression that conflict is common between junior officers and their superiors. Read my signature line, a quote from my company commander, a man I had great respect for...but he wasn't our buddy, he wasn't some kind of advocate. We knew he cared about his men because he wouldn't ask us to do anything he wouldn't do himself. He made sure his men had the gear and support they needed to conduct their mission and kill the enemy. Forget all this shit about  "defending your men from higher-ups." You lead your men.



Noted. Thank you for that clarification. As I have said, I do not by any means claim to have extensive knowledge of military matters. I will adjust  my thinking accordingly per the information I'm given. I would note in my defense, I said the two priorities are the "mission and the men". I understand that when given a direct order, you are expected to follow it regardless of your personal opinion, and complete the mission at any cost.


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## Gurahiyi (Mar 12, 2017)

The Hate Ape said:


> I am so glad that others have had a chance to chime in before I saw your responses.
> 
> You sound like the guy who gets high & tights months before going to bootcamp.
> 
> ...



Understood. I look forward to proving you wrong in regards to bootcamp.


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## AWP (Mar 12, 2017)

Sigh....I'll die before I quit.

Thread closed.


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