# Kidnapped Nigerian Girls



## Marauder06 (May 5, 2014)

So by now pretty much everyone is aware of the 200+ schoolgirls kidnapped by Boko Haram in Nigeria.  Recently, a US Senator has added her voice to the chorus calling for the US to "do something."  

http://www.msnbc.com/msnbc/islamist...-responsibility-mass-abduction-nigerian-girls

So, what do you think?  Should the US intervene in this situation?  If so, how?  If not, why not?


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## AWP (May 5, 2014)

If this were a train or hijacked Nigerian plane how would we react? Otherwise, "doo something?" I think I'll have another beer, that's doing something. "Do something...."


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 5, 2014)

Yes! But more so the world should "do something" 200 young girls kidnapped and going through god knows what...shouldn't even be a question.

We have the resource in the area, no reason we haven't "done something". It sad we even need to have a discussion on it, child kidnapping/slavery should be a top priority for the world and its damn irritating that its not.

Sorry for the rant, its an issue I have a big damn problem with...


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## Ranger Psych (May 5, 2014)

We didn't "do something" for our own people in Bhengazi... why should we do something now.


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## pardus (May 5, 2014)

How is this anything to do with the USA or any other country that isn't called Nigeria?

Everyone is cool with tens of thousands of child/adult slaves being taking since time immemorial to the present day but when they are taken in a group of this size all of a sudden "DO SOMETHING!!!1!"
Really? and just suppose we get them back, do we pat ourselves on the back and make documentaries for the next 20 years celebrating our victory against slavery? Yes probably, meanwhile we will sit back and ignore the next 1,000 and 10,000 slaves taken in groups of 1 - 30 for the next 50 years.
Grow the fuck up America/the West.

KONEY 2014!!!


ETA, For the record I'm cool with us _helping_ out in the spirit of helping a friendly country, but people need to see the ridiculousness of their outrage over this. 
The USA etc... have turned a blind eye to slavery until now, are we going to make a serious effort to sort it out now? lol I think we all know the answer to that...

Also if any foreign country is going to take the lead on this it should be the UK.


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## Chopstick (May 5, 2014)

Ranger Psych said:


> We didn't "do something" for our own people in Bhengazi... why should we do something now.


What he said.
The other issue that came to mind is how much money and resources has our government already poured into Nigeria and what bang for our buck are we getting?  Where is that money and how are those resources being used?  Since I am no expert by any means, I Googled and found this: http://www.nigerdeltarising.org/article/2009/09/14/us-military-involvement-nigeria


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## Ooh-Rah (May 5, 2014)

If we were not talking about 200 kids, (and being girls, your imagination of what they may be going through works overtime), we would not be having this conversation.  That said, we "are" having this conversation and we/someone (we again?) need to help those kids.

Disclaimer - Up until I had kids of my own, I had little, if any, sensitivity to topics like this.  Now, I cannot even watch L&O SVU anymore because I imagine my wife/kids in those horrible situation.  I've got zero tolerence for kids in pain, fuck the politics and help these little girls. 

Additional dislaimer - Yes, I know I am coming from an emotional point of view, and I do not care.


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## x SF med (May 5, 2014)

Nigeria is one of the most resource rich countries in the world.  Nigeria is one of the most corrupt countries in the world. Nigerian government officials make more than British MPs or US Senators/congressmen.  Nigeria has one of the lowest standards of living for it's general populace in the world.  Nigeria has a large army/national police force.  Nigeria receives billions of dollars of US Aid every year. Nigerian law is so lax it is the world's base for internet scams, and high on the list for weapons brokerage, and human brokerage.

Nigeria needs to stand up to the Boko Haram on it's own if it is to gain any credibility as a true nation. 

I personally cannot stand the fact these groups exist and are sanctioned by a 'religion of peace'...  But this is not a personal issue, this is a Nigerian internicene issue where the government failed to protect its own citizens from it's own radicals due to it's internal corruption and fear of it's own people. 

Let Nigeria take care of this unless they repay some of the aid and pay for the US effort to launch the operation they want us to undertake... let them buy our help, it'll be with our money, stashed over the years by the coffers of corrupt governments and government officials.

I apologize if this offends anybody, but Nigeria has the means at it's disposal to right this situation...  but the leaders of Boko Haram are probably members of one of the ruling families of Nigeria, let those families right their own wrongs.


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## pardus (May 5, 2014)

The Nigerian's didn't seem to need much help when they crushed Biafra...


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## Grunt (May 5, 2014)

x SF med said:


> ...Nigeria has the means at it's disposal to right this...



^^^ X10...Nigeria needs to step up to the plate and show that their kids mean more to them than their money does.


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## DA SWO (May 5, 2014)

We can give them intel and other data as asistance.
They can choose to use it, or let those girls die.
The rulers of that country should choose wisely.


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## policemedic (May 5, 2014)

Unless one of those girls is an American citizen I can't support our troops taking an active role in a rescue attempt.  Providing intel and other support is appropriate, and it seems we're doing that. Anything beyond that isn't warranted.

With that said, I'd love to see the Nigerians kick Boko Haram's teeth in.


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## Viper1 (May 5, 2014)

Well France has been taking the NATO lead on Africa for the last two years.  Sounds like a good mission for the African Union, backed by French and NATO support.


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## SpitfireV (May 6, 2014)

As far as children being in sexual slavery, Thailand, Cambodia and Laos are much much worse.


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## JHD (May 6, 2014)

If I react emotionally, I say , yes!  But then, this is occurring all over the world.  As @SpitfireV mentioned above, and in addition to Eastern Europe, the practice is rampant.  The prostituting of women and children needs to be addressed internationally.  I wish we were big enough, strong enough, and financially capable of being the world's savior, but we are not.


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## CDG (May 7, 2014)

JHD said:


> I wish we were big enough, strong enough, and financially capable of being the world's savior, but we are not.


 
Why?  You form a country and you take your chances.  You aren't owed anything by another country who's bigger and stronger than you.  We shouldn't intervene in anything unless it has direct implications for the USA.


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## DA SWO (May 7, 2014)

CDG said:


> Why?  You form a country and you take your chances.  You aren't owed anything by another country who's bigger and stronger than you.  We shouldn't intervene in anything unless it has direct implications for the USA.


Intel sharing isn't a big deal.  We have minions in cubicles looking for him anyway.  
Direct involvement is OK, as long as the guy ends up dead (honest sir, he resisted).


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## JHD (May 7, 2014)

CDG said:


> Why?  You form a country and you take your chances.  You aren't owed anything by another country who's bigger and stronger than you.  We shouldn't intervene in anything unless it has direct implications for the USA.



Really, it was a rhetorical comment, my point being that we can't be the world's savior as all other countries never want to step up to the plate, but leave the US to do it all or lead the way.   I don't think it is our responsibility, but just the opposite.  Others that have the capability need to take care of their own.


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## TLDR20 (May 7, 2014)

Not worth a single second of American time, or a penny of American money.

I say this because let's be honest, it isn't. Kids go missing and are sold into various forms of slavery on the daily, probably by the minute. It may seem cold hearted, but honestly I don't think we should have our foreign policy dictated by the tears of moms imagining it is their kids who were kidnapped. Nigeria should take care of their own fucking problems.


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## x SF med (May 7, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> Not worth a single second of American time, or a penny of American money.
> 
> I say this because let's be honest, it isn't. Kids go missing and are sold into various forms of slavery on the daily, probably by the minute. It may seem cold hearted, but honestly I don't think we should have our foreign policy dictated by the tears of moms imagining it is their kids who were kidnapped. Nigeria should take care of their own fucking problems.



Agreed^^
But .... the current administration has approved more funds and personnel to work with NATO to save the Nigerian girls...  because, 8 more were taken.   Am I the only one with a question of why there was not more security emplaced at schools with the threats issued by the Boko Haram after the large kidnapping.  It wasn't the first, just the largest so far.   This is a friggin soup sammich


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## Marauder06 (May 7, 2014)

I remain strongly against most interventions, but I think we should help out in this one, because I think it would serve our national interests.

Nigeria has *the biggest economy in Africa*, it is a *major regional trading partner* which *is strategically located* in a part of Africa that is *of particular concern to us* at the moment, and the fight is *against an AQ-aligned group* that *would and will attack our people and our interests* in the region. Additionally, unlike a lot of other places where people want the US to "do something," as a country, Nigeria is (or could be) *pro-Western*.

In short, helping recover the lost children allows us to establish an even closer relationship with a major regional ally, lets us get after some major terrorist shitheads, helps secure US trade, and could help give the US's reputation an international boost.

I think the best ways we can contribute is through intel sharing and drone strikes.  Not only should we help recover anyone currently held by Boko Haram, we should severely reduce that organization's ability to carry out similar operations in the future- and by that I mean by killing as many of them as we can.


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## parallel (May 7, 2014)

Mara has hit on my fallback position when it comes to these things. If there is a PLAUSIBLE argument that intervention in (insert crisis here) is in our National Interest then I support it. This of course means that there will be times in which hindsight will show that intervention wasn't really the best course of action in a particular situation. The people making these decisions are flawed as are all humans, mistakes will be made. That doesn't mean we should just ignore these situations when there is a potential up side to them. It DOES mean that we certainly should ignore them when it's readily apparent that there is NO upside.


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## Chopstick (May 7, 2014)

Just noticed this on the news.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...0bcca6-d629-11e3-8f7d-7786660fff7c_story.html



> Pentagon spokesman Col. Steve Warren said fewer than 10 troops are being sent as part of the larger U.S. assistance team to include State Department and Justice Department personnel. The military members will help with communications, logistics and intelligence-planning.


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## Brill (May 7, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> Not worth a single second of American time, or a penny of American money.
> 
> I say this because let's be honest, it isn't. Kids go missing and are sold into various forms of slavery on the daily, probably by the minute. It may seem cold hearted, but honestly I don't think we should have our foreign policy dictated by the tears of moms imagining it is their kids who were kidnapped. Nigeria should take care of their own fucking problems.



Totally agree. BH has been a pain in Abuja's ass for 5 years now and NOBODY cared...except the oil companies.

http://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-13809501


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## Brill (May 10, 2014)

I seriously wonder is all this hype mid-term related? The US handling of Libya, Syria, and Ukraine are total failures so is this a chance to show "leadership" during the run up?

The US gave BH free reign but NOW we care?  Notice how "the state of the State" is no longer in the news?


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## Viper1 (May 10, 2014)

Chopstick said:


> Just noticed this on the news.
> 
> http://www.washingtonpost.com/world...0bcca6-d629-11e3-8f7d-7786660fff7c_story.html



I wouldn't worry about the small number necessarily...it's about the effects they can achieve with the capabilities they have.  A 12-man ODA can be more effective than a 100-man Infantry company in certain situations.


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## Crusader74 (May 11, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> I remain strongly against most interventions, but I think we should help out in this one, because I think it would serve our national interests.
> 
> Nigeria has *the biggest economy in Africa*, it is a *major regional trading partner* which *is strategically located* in a part of Africa that is *of particular concern to us* at the moment, and the fight is *against an AQ-aligned group* that *would and will attack our people and our interests* in the region. Additionally, unlike a lot of other places where people want the US to "do something," as a country, Nigeria is (or could be) *pro-Western*.
> 
> ...



That's a nice realist argument you put for intervention @Marauder06 and I tend to believe that if they (US ) do intervene it will be on these grounds..


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## Marauder06 (May 11, 2014)

That's how I think all of our national affairs ought to be governed:  "Is this in our long-term national interests?"  If yes, consider doing it; if no, then it should most likely be rejected.  That's why I'm against intervening in the Syrian civil war, and for helping out against Boko Haram.


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## DA SWO (May 11, 2014)

Marauder06 said:


> That's how I think all of our national affairs ought to be governed:  "Is this in our long-term national interests?"  If yes, consider doing it; if no, then it should most likely be rejected.  That's why I'm against intervening in the Syrian civil war, and for helping out against *Boko Haram*.



Why does everyone dislike Boko Harem? I thought a Whiter Shade of Pale was up there with Nickleback?


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## Marauder06 (May 11, 2014)

That's Procol Harum bro, different type of insurgent group ;)


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## CQB (May 13, 2014)

The horse trading has begun. They're after prisoners in exchange for the girls.


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## RackMaster (May 13, 2014)

Canadians are on the ground and a SOF team is en-route this week.

http://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/canadi...lp-search-for-kidnapped-girls-baird-1.1818095


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## CQB (May 14, 2014)

Terror defeats itself due to its decline to a lower baseline. So the locals are having a crack now.

Villagers in an area of Nigeria where Boko Haram operates have killed and detained scores of fighters who were suspected of planning a fresh attack, the residents and a security official said.

http://m.aljazeera.com/story/2014514152412389219


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## Viper1 (May 15, 2014)

CQB said:


> Terror defeats itself due to its decline to a lower baseline. So the locals are having a crack now.
> 
> Villagers in an area of Nigeria where Boko Haram operates have killed and detained scores of fighters who were suspected of planning a fresh attack, the residents and a security official said.
> 
> http://m.aljazeera.com/story/2014514152412389219



One of the best days of my last trip was when the local police brought in a named target after the local villagers assisted the police in fighting off an insurgent ambush.  

Second best day: hearing about my old area making peace with the Afghan government because the Taliban killed two members of the local council.  It is sad that good people had to die, but their deaths pushed the "on-the-fence" crowd over to the government's side.


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## CQB (May 15, 2014)

Yes, they go a step too far and end up treading on their collective cocks.


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## Havoc13 (May 16, 2014)

Two similar points of view on the hashtag campaign:

http://www.shadowspear.com/2014/05/winning-boko-haram-surrenders-gives-back-our-girls/

http://rhinoden.rangerup.com/hashtags-really/


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## Brill (May 16, 2014)

#BringBackOurStatusAsASuperpower


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## Etype (May 16, 2014)

I'd be on board with rescuing the girls, if it were conjunction with (at least battalion sized) operations to inflict massive casualties on BH and cripple their networks.

Preventing terrorist attacks and rescuing hostages doesn't do much to prevent the same thing from occurring in the future.

If the US (or Canada, or UK, or Australia, or...) is prompted to act, the belligerent organization should be punished accordingly.


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## CQB (May 17, 2014)

Good point, but IMO unlikely. What threat do they pose realistically?


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## JBS (May 18, 2014)

I think we should do something- as in send in US military forces to rescue the girls.

We should simply because we can.    The fact that we've failed to act on other instances of mass slaughter should not deter us from making the right choice this time.   We're really great at getting involved in murky circumstances where the outcome in uncertain, but when something is cut and dry evil, we twiddle our thumbs and philosophize about it...

We have the power to do something right therefore we should.  Also, the total lack of humanitarian concern displayed by other nations has never been the measure by which Americans engage the world.  We traditionally were the nation that did things because they were right, not because they were popular.   We have a lot of black marks in our history, why not put a check mark in the "right thing to do" column for a change?


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## Etype (May 18, 2014)

JBS said:


> I think we should do something- as in send in US military forces to rescue the girls.
> 
> We should simply because we can.


There are only a few hundred folks qualified to do such a thing... 

Is the juice worth the squeeze?  Honestly, is any Nigerian girl worth the life of a high level member of the SOF community?  It's a very harsh question to ponder- but is a national asset with over 10 years of experience, a myriad of training, and of two or three kids worth sacrificing?  Any asshole with an AK can get lucky. 

If you answered yes, now make it two- if they got lucky once, maybe they get lucky twice.

Now look at the millions of dollars it took mobilizing such a force and resources spent finding the girls. 

I'm not saying it is or it isn't, there are just a lot of things to consider.


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## CQB (May 19, 2014)

I'll second that and again pose the question, what realistically do BH represent as a threat to the US, UK or anywhere else apart from their own turf?


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## JHD (May 19, 2014)

JBS said:


> We have the power to do something right therefore we should.  Also, the total lack of humanitarian concern displayed by other nations has never been the measure by which Americans engage the world.  We traditionally were the nation that did things because they were right, not because they were popular.   We have a lot of black marks in our history, why not put a check mark in the "right thing to do" column for a change?



I get what you are saying, and it may sound harsh, but why do something now, and why do these girls warrant action?  This happens all over the world on a daily basis.  Maybe not 200 or so at a time, but many and daily.  Kids and women are taken and used up and disposed of like garbage.  The world needs to come together to get this done because the problem is too big and too widespread for any one country to deal with it.

Also, as the saying goes, no good deed goes unpunished.  Even when we think we are doing the "right" thing, there will be many saying we are pushing a hidden agenda and have ulterior motives.  Sometimes when bad things happen is someone else's back yard, we shouldn't get involved.  This particular incident isn't our problem, as horrible as the situation is for those parents.  JMOO.


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## Brill (May 19, 2014)

CQB said:


> I'll second that and again pose the question, what realistically do BH represent as a threat to the US, UK or anywhere else apart from their own turf?



http://www.nipc.gov.ng/intcomp.html

Depends if you're a stock holder.


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## Scotth (May 19, 2014)

If we have actionable intelligence to rescue the girls we should because it is the right thing to do.  Sometimes the right thing to do is reason enough for some behavior.  I'm a strong believer in the belief that military intervention should have a strong national interest component but we are not talking about an act of war and I believe the actions of Boko meet the definition of what should be considered an exception to the rule.

Does that mean we put a brigade on the ground running around the country.  Of course not.

Does a response have to involve boots on the ground.  For a rescue attempt sure it does.  It could also involve cruise missiles or other solutions to take out bad guys.

Can we turn are backs to people that think taking two hundred girls are OK?  Sure we can today and what happens tomorrow with the 'do nothing today' message that we would send?  Where do you draw the line on unacceptable behavior tomorrow?


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## Scotth (May 19, 2014)

CQB said:


> I'll second that and again pose the question, what realistically do BH represent as a threat to the US, UK or anywhere else apart from their own turf?



What threat did Afghan Freedom Fighters pose to the US in the '80's and what threat did they pose to us on 9/11?  The future is always hard to predict.

If they were fighting the Nigerian government I would whole heartily agree with you.  Stealing children and selling them into sexual slavery is a whole different conversation.


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## Etype (May 19, 2014)

Scotth said:


> If we have actionable intelligence to rescue the girls we should because it is the right thing to do.  Sometimes the right thing to do is reason enough for some behavior.  I'm a strong believer in the belief that military intervention should have a strong national interest component but we are not talking about an act of war and I believe the actions of Boko meet the definition of what should be considered an exception to the rule.
> 
> Does that mean we put a brigade on the ground running around the country.  Of course not.
> 
> ...



- If we did something every time we had actionable intelligence, we'd never get a rest.

- A cruise missile costs MILLIONS.  First to get the ship, sub, plane, whatever close enough- then to actual use the missile.

- Both of these things would require either permission from Nigeria, or violation of their sovereignty.  There are hundreds of countries with problems that don't want any help, there are countries with problems that dictate how we help, and there's the rare country that doesn't care so long as we help- the last example is VERY rare.

Sadly- kidnapping, slavery, mass murder, etc. is nothing new in Africa.  This one spread like wildfire through social media and diverted everyone's attention from Miley Cyrus's new haircut- and now all the "important people" are outraged. 


Wait till they find out people are eating albinos in Congo to steal their "magical powers."


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## CQB (May 19, 2014)

Currently the rage on twitter




*crickets*


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## Scotth (May 19, 2014)

Etype said:


> - If we did something every time we had actionable intelligence, we'd never get a rest.
> 
> - A cruise missile costs MILLIONS.  First to get the ship, sub, plane, whatever close enough- then to actual use the missile.
> 
> ...



200 girls getting mass kidnapped happens everyday.  Shocking that this got to be a story.

PS I didn't say the nation should respond to every incident in the world where we had actionable intelligence.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 20, 2014)

Etype said:


> - If we did something every time we had actionable intelligence, we'd never get a rest.
> 
> - A cruise missile costs MILLIONS.  First to get the ship, sub, plane, whatever close enough- then to actual use the missile.
> 
> ...



No doubt Africa is a fucked up place, and I tend to agree with you on some of your posts. I don't want to send you or any other service member over there to die for BS. However, I don't see how an ODA doing some FID for a Nigerian rescue unit and some IC people doing some "here they be" work is going to bankrupt us or put lives at risk.

We don't have to put an American face on it (CAG-DEVGRU) but the assistance in training and intelligence, would probably go along way.


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## pardus (May 20, 2014)

I'm all for helping the weak and oppressed. Nigeria is a commonwealth country, it has nothing to do with the USA outside of economics. The lead on this should be the UK. If the UK feels they need support they should ask for it.

I'll say it again, outside of making people feel good about #doing something, WTF is this going to achieve? Slaves will continue to be taken *every day* and the # bleeding hearts wont give a fuck or do anything about it. So what is achieved? We all feel good for "doing the right thing" for 200, while we ignore the thousands that Michelle Obama doesn't fucking # about?

Sleep well at night...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 20, 2014)

So your argument is that b/c child trafficking is prolific throughout the world, we should just not offer assistance with this one? Or that b/c it’s a Commonwealth that we should let the UK (which I’ve seen no offer of assistance from in the news) should handle it?

I get that you think it’s a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things, and I know you are correct. But my issues, is why are we (The USA), so worried about drug trafficking, weapons trafficking and not human trafficking. What really irritates me is that we have all these SOF units, designed, equipped and trained to go in and help with situations like these globally, but on this very forum (all things SOF) everyone has been about “Fuck these kids”. It’s not just this incident or just the fact that it is kids; it’s the big picture, what is the point of having all this awesome SOF, if we don’t even want to use it on saving some school kids stolen from their families and being held by Muslim extremist? Maybe my heart is bleeding, but I think if we are going to spend the money, it might be a good place to start with the children who will grow up to remember “when my own country didn’t shit to save me, these Americans did vs supporting countries like fucking Pakistan (IDK brownie points for the future vs funding for future enemies).

That all said, the bottom line is, we don’t have to spend millions of dollars and it wouldn’t take much to get these kids back. I probably agreed more with the Troll’s post as for the “why we shouldn’t get involved, or the at least get the Nigerian gov to pay the bill” but to be honest, I find it hard to believe that this is even something that is being argued. If SF and some IC guys don’t want to go do it, hire a damn PMC to do it, and take the funding to pay for it, out of the SF and IC budget. I mean shit, 4-6 trainers/advisors working with a Nigerian Btn, and some old spook who knows the area with a few hundred thousand cash to get a pin-point on the whereabouts of these kids, and this shit would have already been over.

The child trafficking throughout South America, Asia and Africa, is ridicules and something should be done about it, and if countries don’t want to spend the money, or put boots on the ground, they should at least deregulate the PMC side of things, and allow people who do give a shit, to get the funding and go do the “right thing”.

Sorry for the rant, and no I really don't want to take SF's budget away, just wondering where the lines got crossed from "liberate the oppressed" to "not our problem".

My $.02


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## CQB (May 20, 2014)

All good mate, & then some. Grab a guy in Libya, SEALs go after a target.  Theres the capability for sure and certain. I guess you have to pick your battles.


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## Ranger Psych (May 20, 2014)

To do it right and not totally fucking straphaBLACKHAWKDOWNging the guys on the ground, _it would be millions of dollars_.

Fact:  Air support. A fuckton of it because evac'ing 200 girls ain't happening on a little bird. 
Fact: Getting them and their shit there with more than a ruck and a pat on the ass saying GO
Fact: Logistics, period

Just flying a herc there and back is easily a mil, counting crew hours, fuel, maintenance, and associated expenses related to the mission. That's just going with the cheapest cruise burn coming out at about $200,000 in fuel alone.

This kind of event due to the amount of civilians involved isn't an ODA problem. This is a JTF problem if we had to handle it. That's a bunch of shit and a bunch of money to get all the shit there. 

Even just flying a bunch of  drones over there for a bit to try to just HAND them intel they didn't even ask for, would still be in the millions of dollars.

If we step in, we're going to need to break out the black card. Do I feel for those families? yeah, that shits gotta suck.


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## AWP (May 20, 2014)

Dear Mister President Barack,
I am a prince of Boko Haram and have recently come into a sum of approximately 200 girls. Currently, these are in a bank that is guarded by the J-Sock. If you could confidentially wire $5000 USD to the account below...


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 20, 2014)

Freefalling said:


> Dear Mister President Barack,
> I am a prince of Boko Haram and have recently come into a sum of approximately 200 girls. Currently, these are in a bank that is guarded by the J-Sock. If you could confidentially wire $5000 USD to the account below...


 
Now thats just funny...


All BS aside, I am not trying to beat a war drum, or go tit-for-tat, just voicing some opinions. I really don’t think you need a drone on station 24/7 or a full JSOFTF to accomplish the assistance that would build some good faith with the Nigerian people, and help the Nigerian government get these girls back. I crunched the numbers a bit, it would take $1,515,600 to deploy a 12 man team for 60 days, covering travels, housing, meals, transport and $1 mil “grease the wheel funds” to get some good old fashioned Intel on who just bought 200 new burkas…But I know, that’s now how shit is done.:-/


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## TLDR20 (May 20, 2014)

@JAB I really think you overestimate almost everything about everyone's capabilities in your posts. This isn't something one ODA could even begin to handle. Rescuing 200 people from a camp in the jungle? Didn't it take an entire battalion of rangers to do something similar in WW2? Hostage rescue is the most dangerous of missions for everyone involved. Even of it was just an ODA mission, how long would it take for that ODA to train up a foreign unit to have the competency to rescue 200 school girls? An African military no less? Infinity, it would take till the end of time. That isn't even accounting for corruption and rats in the .gov over there. As someone who as actually trained and advised foreign SOF I can tell you with certainty, it is not as easy as you have laid it out to be.

What would happen if the mission failed(which is likely)? All those friends you think we would make would suddenly not be so friendly.

As to the cost? Yeah it would be expensive. Very very expensive.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 20, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> @JAB I really think you overestimate almost everything about everyone's capabilities in your posts. This isn't something one ODA could even begin to handle. Rescuing 200 people from a camp in the jungle? Didn't it take an entire battalion of rangers to do something similar in WW2? Hostage rescue is the most dangerous of missions for everyone involved. Even of it was just an ODA mission, how long would it take for that ODA to train up a foreign unit to have the competency to rescue 200 school girls? An African military no less? Infinity, it would take till the end of time. That isn't even accounting for corruption and rats in the .gov over there. As someone who as actually trained and advised foreign SOF I can tell you with certainty, it is not as easy as you have laid it out to be.
> 
> What would happen if the mission failed(which is likely)? All those friends you think we would make would suddenly not be so friendly.
> 
> As to the cost? Yeah it would be expensive. Very very expensive.



So an SF ODA cannot train a Btn of Nigerian soldiers to conduct a rescue operation in their own backyard?

Fuck, I could get 12 squared away NCO's to train a Btn, especially when the HN is English speaking. Its not like I am saying build a commando unit, I'm talking take a Btn of Nigerians soldier and square them up a bit...

Either way you guys are the experts, if you say you need millions of dollars, drones, air support, and a Btn of Rangers, roger that.


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## TLDR20 (May 20, 2014)

JAB said:


> So an SF ODA cannot train a Btn of Nigerian soldiers to conduct a rescue operation in their own backyard?
> 
> Fuck, I could get 12 squared away NCO's to train a Btn, especially when the HN is English speaking. Its not like I am saying build a commando unit, I'm talking take a Btn of Nigerians soldier and square them up a bit...
> 
> Either way you guys are the experts, if you say you need millions of dollars, drones, air support, and a Btn of Rangers, roger that.



IF an SF ODA had been training a unit for a year or two, yes they might be capable of training a unit of Nigerian soldiers to conduct a rescue operation in their own backyard. 

Have you ever worked with a foreign unit? One that has no concept of an NCO system, a corrupt officer corps, no support, and maybe shoots a couple hundred rounds a year. Whos soldiers are conscripted and have little to no education? You don't just roll into a third world country and "square them up a bit". If this was going to be done, you would need to train up a commando unit if you did not want everyone involved to end up dead. That includes the girls, the Nigerian soldiers and the terrorists.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 20, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> IF an SF ODA had been training a unit for a year or two, yes they might be capable of training a unit of Nigerian soldiers to conduct a rescue operation in their own backyard.
> 
> Have you ever worked with a foreign unit? One that has no concept of an NCO system, a corrupt officer corps, no support, and maybe shoots a couple hundred rounds a year. Whos soldiers are conscripted and have little to no education? You don't just roll into a third world country and "square them up a bit". If this was going to be done, you would need to train up a commando unit if you did not want everyone involved to end up dead. That includes the girls, the Nigerian soldiers and the terrorists.



Would the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps (ICDC) back 2004 count? LOL

No worries man, I'm just running my suck. I don't know what you guys do outside of the very little I read.

I withdraw my opinions, we should do nothing, b/c it will cost too much and its not worth it.


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## TLDR20 (May 20, 2014)

JAB said:


> Would the Iraqi Civil Defense Corps (ICDC) back 2004 count? LOL
> 
> No worries man, I'm just running my suck. I don't know what you guys do outside of the very little I read.
> 
> I withdraw my opinions, we should do nothing, b/c it will cost too much and its not worth it.



Yeah that counts. Now would you have trusted those yahoos with rescuing 200 civilian schoolgirls?


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 20, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> Yeah that counts. Now would you have trusted those yahoos with rescuing 200 civilian schoolgirls?



LOL, we couldn't trust them not sell their equipment, much less not blow all their ammo at first contact. 

However, its a bit of apples to oranges, we had monkeys who went through a 6 week BCT and had to OJT their asses. Nigeria has a professional Army and Air Force, Andrea has been investing in what they call "counterterrorism training" which honestly looks less then the equivalent of light infantry skills, however they are well equipped and I find it hard to believe that an ODA or equivalent has not been working with their SOF. The fact that they have several divisions with light and mech equipment and training, a modern Air Force and probably the Intel assets to fix the position of these school girls. I find it hard to believe that select group of professionals cannot go in their, train, plan and advise a good rescue operation without years of prep training, millions of dollars, countless SIGINT and ISR, and a JSOFTF.

That said, I see your point along with others, and I'm really not attempting be an ass here. With any hostage rescue (large numbers or small) their is a probability percentage of success and failure. I come from the better to try than not camp, not that a cordon, isolate, negotiate option is not possible, but I guess someone would at least need to put that Intel wheel in motion, etc.

I guess I just expect different response from some of you guys and than get all "WTF" when the discussion turns to "fuck these kids, not our problem, cost too much, etc". My admiration may have gotten the best of me, causing and adverse mental combustion, followed by my inability to not voice my angers and frustration.


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## pardus (May 20, 2014)

Morally you are absolutely correct, something should be done, but bottom line is that it's not our problem.
The UK does have some SAS guys on the ground helping out.

Why doesn't Nigeria hire PMC's to do the job? Why doesn't Nigeria ask OAS to help them out? Why is this our problem if Nigeria doesn't do something itself?

As for logistics...

"But the task of recovering the girls appeared to grow more complicated with news that U.S. intelligence believe the 276 girls have been split up.

"We do think they have been broken up into smaller groups," U.S. Navy Rear Adm. John Kirby, the Pentagon press secretary, said.

He declined to detail how U.S. officials came to the conclusion. It is a sentiment that has been echoed by a number of others, who believe the girls already have been moved out of Nigeria and into neighboring countries.

"The search must be in Niger, Cameroon and Chad, to see if we can find information," former UK Prime Minister Gordon Brown, the U.N.'s special envoy for global education, told CNN." *

Just supposed we do allocate $X million and X amount of troops and equipment needed and we do go in and rescue the girls. "We" come home hailed as heroes around the world, awesome. Then Boko Haram kidnaps another 200 a week later... and then the Lord's Resistance Army kidnaps another 200 in the Congo a week after that... What do we do then?

Also, why are we concerned about the kidnapping but not concerned about all the murders?

"And on Monday, Boko Haram attacked Gamboru Ngala, a remote state capital near Nigeria's border with Cameroon that has been used as a staging ground for troops in the search for the girls. Some of the at least 310 victims were burned alive." *

Personally I would love to see all of Boko Haram swinging from the neck, I'd go there myself and help do it in a heartbeat if I could.

As to your question about human trafficking, I recently read an article that stated human trafficking was the 2nd biggest criminal money earner in the world, 2nd only to drugs and ahead of animal poaching.





JAB said:


> So your argument is that b/c child trafficking is prolific throughout the world, we should just not offer assistance with this one? Or that b/c it’s a Commonwealth that we should let the UK (which I’ve seen no offer of assistance from in the news) should handle it?
> 
> I get that you think it’s a drop in the bucket in the grand scheme of things, and I know you are correct. But my issues, is why are we (The USA), so worried about drug trafficking, weapons trafficking and not human trafficking. What really irritates me is that we have all these SOF units, designed, equipped and trained to go in and help with situations like these globally, but on this very forum (all things SOF) everyone has been about “Fuck these kids”. It’s not just this incident or just the fact that it is kids; it’s the big picture, what is the point of having all this awesome SOF, if we don’t even want to use it on saving some school kids stolen from their families and being held by Muslim extremist? Maybe my heart is bleeding, but I think if we are going to spend the money, it might be a good place to start with the children who will grow up to remember “when my own country didn’t shit to save me, these Americans did vs supporting countries like fucking Pakistan (IDK brownie points for the future vs funding for future enemies).
> 
> ...



*   http://www.cnn.com/2014/05/08/world/africa/nigeria-abducted-girls/


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## pardus (May 20, 2014)

Becareful when you use "professional" and "African army" in the same sentence... 



JAB said:


> LOL, we couldn't trust them not sell their equipment, much less not blow all their ammo at first contact.
> 
> However, its a bit of apples to oranges, we had monkeys who went through a 6 week BCT and had to OJT their asses. Nigeria has a professional Army and Air Force, Andrea has been investing in what they call "counterterrorism training" which honestly looks less then the equivalent of light infantry skills, however they are well equipped and I find it hard to believe that an ODA or equivalent has not been working with their SOF. The fact that they have several divisions with light and mech equipment and training, a modern Air Force and probably the Intel assets to fix the position of these school girls. I find it hard to believe that select group of professionals cannot go in their, train, plan and advise a good rescue operation without years of prep training, millions of dollars, countless SIGINT and ISR, and a JSOFTF.
> 
> ...


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## x SF med (May 20, 2014)

JAB...  Nigeria has 2 faces - the public and the private.
  Public face -"we are an enlightened and educated country"   private face - "if you do not have ties to the royal families, you will never be truly educated nor will you have a voice."
Public face - "we have a large, strong well trained, well equipped and ready army."  private face - "we have the presidential guard units made up of hand picked men to guard our interests and the rich, the rest of the country has barely equipped untrained units from the lower classes, fuck them."

Nigeria borders Cameroon, Niger, Benin and Chad...  *Nigeria* is divided into 36 *states* and Abuja, the federal capital territory. The *states* are further divided into 774 Local Government Areas - most of which are corrupt.  Nigeria has 10 separate intelligence services - that don't talk to each other and report to different factions of the government. 

Want to know about the Nigerian Army - from a respected source.... here's a link to Global Security.org's take on the Nigerian Army.

You are sadly misinformed of the resources needed to undertake the rescue or even start looking for them...  Africom and Soceur have probably been looking at this wondering when they'd be tasked with a humiliating failure before it even got off the ground....  It is embarrassing t oeven contemplate this operation without a military infrastructure in the host nation that can even support itself, much less a truly sophisticated plan you suggest.

So, feel free to go grab your NCO buddies and offer to train the Nigerians, find and rescue these schoolgirls for the $1.6 million you believe it would cost to put an ODA on the ground...  you will have no Intel, imagery nor reliable support...   Have fun.    (Btw, in order to do it right, the mission would require an SF Bn, with full Interagency support, including Air,  Naval and allied SOF ....  plus logistics, and paying the Host Nation for any damage incurred - cost upwards of $2 Billion at the low end, to get on the ground - figure quadrupling that if the op lasts longer than 2 weeks, and about $1 bil a week after the first 4 weeks).

Explain where your 1.6 mil total to put an ODA on the ground and train a Bn of Nigerians in 6 weeks came from?  that's less than one day's cost.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 20, 2014)

x SF med said:


> JAB...  Nigeria has 2 faces - the public and the private.
> Public face -"we are an enlightened and educated country"   private face - "if you do not have ties to the royal families, you will never be truly educated nor will you have a voice."
> Public face - "we have a large, strong well trained, well equipped and ready army."  private face - "we have the presidential guard units made up of hand picked men to guard our interests and the rich, the rest of the country has barely equipped untrained units from the lower classes, fuck them."
> 
> ...



I don't have my laptop to give this post its proper reply...but will give a formal reply in a few hours. 

Numbers were crunched on what it would take to put 12 guys on the ground, sustain them using commercial means and pay them a going contractor day rate, with a "buy info" budget of $1mil. I'll spell it out for you a little later. I was not saying that what an ODA would need, although I find it interesting that 1 ODA needs so much support and funding to covertly train a btn worth of HN forces.


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## x SF med (May 20, 2014)

JAB said:


> I don't have my laptop to give this post its proper reply...but will give a formal reply in a few hours.
> 
> Numbers were crunched on what it would take to put 12 guys on the ground, sustain them using commercial means and pay them a going contractor day rate, with a "buy info" budget of $1mil. I'll spell it out for you a little later. I was not saying that what an ODA would need, although I find it interesting that 1 ODA needs so much support and funding to covertly train a btn worth of HN forces.



the issue is not just the ODA on the ground, nor the support, but the parameters of the mission...  you do realize that a single ODA on the ground at a minimum needs 120 people in rear D support...  those same 120 people can support one or two other ODAs, but by the time you throw contingent assets into the mix, and intel sources/assets into the mix the costs multiply exponentially.  I also jumped it to the logical conclusion that it would take an SF Bn, and the mission would go allied and Joint source based on the Host Nation's inability to contribute fully in a nominal time frame for a successful rescue of the hostages...  A nominal timeframe to get the Nigerians ready to undertake a mission of tis type is ~2-3 years with a single ODA, and mission success after 2 years wold still only be 55-60% based on the cultural/social/political implications and corruption.   I'm over simplifying the parameters, thought process and planning for this, but not nearly as much as you were. 

You tossed a white paper scenario at me that's inside my lane, and outside yours and you're telling me that I'm wrong?  Wow.  I did not realize that you were such an expert on Special Operations planning for UW/GW/FID ops in a combined nation/Force scenario....   I'm sorry for doubting you...  It can be done for $1.6 million with a single ODA and no support in 6 weeks like you said.  I thought I was trained in this, but I guess I'm wrong.

Please enlighten me, Yoda.


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## TLDR20 (May 20, 2014)

JAB said:


> although I find it interesting that 1 ODA needs so much support and funding to covertly train a btn worth of HN forces.



Covertly training them to do infantry tasks like ambushes, raids, and patrol, we can do it for very little. Training a Bn to rescue 200 hostages in difficult terrain and no on the ground c&c assets. That takes lots of time. There are reasons things like the Q, and SQT are over a year long. Not to mention, the people who would actually rescue hostages have even more specialized training in the forms of OTC.


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## DA SWO (May 20, 2014)

JAB said:


> I don't have my laptop to give this post its proper reply...but will give a formal reply in a few hours.
> 
> Numbers were crunched on what it would take to put 12 guys on the ground, sustain them using commercial means and pay them a going contractor day rate, with a "buy info" budget of $1mil. I'll spell it out for you a little later. I was not saying that what an ODA would need, although I find it interesting that 1 ODA needs so much support and funding to covertly train a btn worth of HN forces.


Food for thought, a covert operation is more expensive then an overt op.
Log trail can get more complex.


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## Ranger Psych (May 20, 2014)

Here's some other reasons I know for a fact this shit would be a JTF mission:

Last time I was anywhere in Africa, the ODA we linked up with said "No, I don't think you really want to do a live fire with these guys" and so we didn't even end up doing any training WITH the local nationals because they were that scary.  I've seen ANA I trusted further and I didn't trust a fuckin one of em.

TLDR20 hit it on the head. Go read what 6th Ranger BN did in WWII.

You aren't uptraining local troops. If they aren't ready for it now you aren't training them to do it tomorrow. Especially with african military standards being in place, and trying to do it quietly so they don't end up beefing up/moving the obj around in a shell game.

Figuring that they're armed and have a 4 hostages to 1 enemy ratio that means you have a heavy platoon size element, never mind surrounding areas.

That means the primary objective is a Bn minus due to the manpower plus being able to handle 200 people. Figure dispersed companies IOT support main effort of effecting rescue in various ambushes, additional raids since "lol we're here, why not make sure they can't pull this shit again anytime soon" etc.


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## DA SWO (May 20, 2014)

Everyone assumes the hostages are together, increase force requirements for dispersed locations.

Odds of finding all the locations and hitting them together are pretty slim.


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## pardus (May 20, 2014)

SOWT said:


> Everyone assumes the hostages are together, increase force requirements for dispersed locations.
> 
> Odds of finding all the locations and hitting them together are pretty slim.



Check post #63, the hostages have been split up. Getting them back will require a miracle without Boko Haram's help.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 21, 2014)

x SF med said:


> the issue is not just the ODA on the ground, nor the support, but the parameters of the mission...  you do realize that a single ODA on the ground at a minimum needs 120 people in rear D support...  those same 120 people can support one or two other ODAs, but by the time you throw contingent assets into the mix, and intel sources/assets into the mix the costs multiply exponentially.  I also jumped it to the logical conclusion that it would take an SF Bn, and the mission would go allied and Joint source based on the Host Nation's inability to contribute fully in a nominal time frame for a successful rescue of the hostages...  A nominal timeframe to get the Nigerians ready to undertake a mission of tis type is ~2-3 years with a single ODA, and mission success after 2 years wold still only be 55-60% based on the cultural/social/political implications and corruption.   I'm over simplifying the parameters, thought process and planning for this, but not nearly as much as you were.
> 
> You tossed a white paper scenario at me that's inside my lane, and outside yours and you're telling me that I'm wrong?  Wow.
> 
> ...


 
No worries, I was going to type out this long ass response and make my points, but it’s obvious that is futile at this point. Thanks for squaring me away, from this point forward I will be in full understanding that in order to train anyone in Africa, you will need an SF Btn and a 2 billion dollar budget. And if you want to rescue kidnapped school girls, it will take the full force of the USASOC, JSOC and probably the 82nd Airborne standing by.......Just in case.


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## AWP (May 21, 2014)

For better or for worse, the world looks to us for solutions, answers, help...whatever. The Cold War kept a lot of bad guys from being worse guys. Today the perception is that the US is the world's policeman and we're the point man for keeping it together. That doesn't mean the rest of the world gets a pass, far from it, but the third world looks to the US first, so it behooves us to find a solution.

A solution doesn't have to be US forces on the ground, it can be as "low cost" as some transports while Europe or local countries contribute manpower. ISR support is another area where we can contribute. Let other nations/ regions bear the brunt of failure. If their troops hit the OBJ and kill off half of the hostages...to be frank, better them than us.

I'm a huge proponent of not acting unless it is in our national interest, but I'm acutely aware that sometimes we have to "do something" if only for a moral or political high ground. "Something" doesn't need to be everything and it doesn't mean our troops have to be in harm's way. "Something" also costs money and "something" will have second- and third-order effects which must be considered.

As for Nigeria, I don't know enough about the problem to offer a solution. I do know that we should be involved, but to what degree I'm not certain. I also know opportunities like these are ripe for an ISR presence and what better way than to gather on the region than something like this? Hell, maybe we could convince the NSA to spy on someone other than Americans for a change?


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## RackMaster (May 21, 2014)

The Canadian government gave a blanket offer but US officials had already took the lead. So we offered anything that wasn't committed.  I think more communication before commitments are made, could save resources but I think a lot of countries wait for the US to react first.


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## AWP (May 21, 2014)

RackMaster said:


> The Canadian government gave a blanket offer but US officials had already took the lead. So we offered anything that wasn't committed.  I think more communication before commitments are made, could save resources but I think a lot of countries wait for the US to react first.



And that's where the regional organizations should take the lead. Org. of African States or whatever should start the process. "What do we need? Who do we ask for XXXXX?" Maybe they did that in this case, I don't know, but developing countries need to help themselves a little.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 21, 2014)

Fox is reporting 80 troops deployed to Chad to support the ISR side.


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## x SF med (May 21, 2014)

JAB said:


> No worries, I was going to type out this long ass response and make my points, but it’s obvious that is futile at this point. Thanks for squaring me away, from this point forward I will be in full understanding that in order to train anyone in Africa, you will need an SF Btn and a 2 billion dollar budget. And if you want to rescue kidnapped school girls, it will take the full force of the USASOC, JSOC and probably the 82nd Airborne standing by.......Just in case.



Your scenario was to train the HN forces to accomplish the mission in 60 days for $1.6 Million with a single unsupported ODA sized force, or was I mistaken?
I took your stated parameters and used them as a basis for a real world mission of the same scope as described, but added in the relevant political and support functions needed to make that happen.  IF the mission were to rescue the hostages without training the HN forces, you chose the wrong assets to accomplish the mission, and the fact that due to the surrounding countries you would need Arabic, French and Italian speakers to interface with the locals/Boko Haram...  these speakers would need to be as highly trained as the American forces...  So, we need Italian SF/Paras and LEdF ReT 3...  The D boys and Rangers are abetter choice from the American side - set out in multiple mixed units to get at the scattered Bn minus compounds - probably using HALO or HAHO infiltration due to probable remoteness and lack of infrastructure....

Don't change what you said to support your point - I set out the needs to train for an immediate mission as advisors, within the current political constraints of the area and world opinion,  not as combat troops...  YOU set the parameters and failed to take into consideration the further ramifications of the plan you suggested without knowing the state of the units to be trained and the trust level of the Trainers for the Trainees...   and just where is your intel coming from for free?  I want to know how you did that.


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## JBS (May 21, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> What would happen if the mission failed(which is likely)? All those friends you think we would make would suddenly not be so friendly.


This is the most compelling reason I've read so far on why such an endeavor could very easily backfire.  A hastily executed failed mission that resulted in hundreds of dead little girls would be about as big of a disaster as one could imagine.   The only comment I'd interject is this thread is devoid of anything like a threat assessment.  We haven't talked about the level of hardness of the target(s) on any level, and until we do, it's a bit tough to start to throw together even the loosest numbers on likelihood of success.     

About 90% of the picture just isn't available to us (and by us I mean most of us here), in terms of target hardness.  Boko Haram is broken down into about a half dozen "families", with only a small percentage of them having anything that would resemble quality training.   They're extremely violent, responsible for the slaughter of more than 10,000 people since about 2000 IIRC;  much of that killing, however, was perpetuated by 12 and 13-year-old boys.     They do the child soldier thing.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 22, 2014)

x SF med said:


> Your scenario was to train the HN forces to accomplish the mission in 60 days for $1.6 Million with a single unsupported ODA sized force, or was I mistaken?
> 
> Yep, put some guys covertly on the ground through commercial means, take their forces (Nigerian CT btn) and spend some time honing their skills and assist them with their planning. At the same time get some IC guys who know the A/O and give them a million dollars cash to buy whatever information they can.
> 
> ...


 
Go back and read what I posted, it has not been edited and I am not spinning things around, etc. You guys keep getting stuck on making this a “Team America” rescue mission b/c that would give a better success ratio, I wont disagree that the success percentage will increase, but that shouldn’t happen. We should not be sending our forces in there to rescue these girls; the Nigerians will not want our forces on the ground in that capacity. Throughout this thread, I have never stated “send the Rangers and everyone else”. I said we should be doing something, and I spelled that out in offering some FID and IC assistance to the Nigerian forces.

A couple of you stated that my 60 days with $1,515,600 budget idea is not enough time and not enough funds. So okay, its not enough time or funds, I got it, no worries. I am not disagreeing with you or anyone else, I am just stating I crunched the number using googlefu, and I can pay travel, housing, meals, incidentals, and a $500 a person day rate to put 12 guys on ground for 60 days. That’s with giving them way more spending cash than they would need and rounding the funds up everywhere I went, and the grand total was $515,600. I tossed in $1 million cash to buy information and grease wheels (i.e. develop some informants, pay off locals, etc). I never said that’s what an SFODA would need, I never said that that would guarantee 100% recovery of all the school girls, I simply stated based on the number crunching, you could put 12 knowledgeable people on the ground for that amount, that can give some assistance to the Nigerian security forces.

So that would not be helpful in your opinion, I got it, again, no worries...


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## Ranger Psych (May 22, 2014)

Listen to the people that know wtf they're talking about. X_SF_med is spot on with his post, as have been basically everyone except you IMHO. 

Being blunt, it's not like you actually were in SOF or remotely know of what it takes to actually mount special operations beyond what's been shared here or has been publicized. I find it rather chuckleworthy that you're getting bent out of shape about getting hit with the reality brick about it.


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## Teufel (May 22, 2014)

JAB said:


> A couple of you stated that my 60 days with $1,515,600 budget idea is not enough time and not enough funds.



This is Africa.  For 1.5 million dollars you can buy all the Nigerian school girls you want.


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## x SF med (May 22, 2014)

JAB said:


> Go back and read what I posted, it has not been edited and I am not spinning things around, etc. You guys keep getting stuck on making this a “Team America” rescue mission b/c that would give a better success ratio, I wont disagree that the success percentage will increase, but that shouldn’t happen. We should not be sending our forces in there to rescue these girls; the Nigerians will not want our forces on the ground in that capacity. Throughout this thread, I have never stated “send the Rangers and everyone else”. I said we should be doing something, and I spelled that out in offering some FID and IC assistance to the Nigerian forces.
> 
> A couple of you stated that my 60 days with $1,515,600 budget idea is not enough time and not enough funds. So okay, its not enough time or funds, I got it, no worries. I am not disagreeing with you or anyone else, I am just stating I crunched the number using googlefu, and I can pay travel, housing, meals, incidentals, and a $500 a person day rate to put 12 guys on ground for 60 days. That’s with giving them way more spending cash than they would need and rounding the funds up everywhere I went, and the grand total was $515,600. I tossed in $1 million cash to buy information and grease wheels (i.e. develop some informants, pay off locals, etc). I never said that’s what an SFODA would need, I never said that that would guarantee 100% recovery of all the school girls, I simply stated based on the number crunching, you could put 12 knowledgeable people on the ground for that amount, that can give some assistance to the Nigerian security forces.
> 
> So that would not be helpful in your opinion, I got it, again, no worries...



Tell you what...  you set up "JABwater" build the contacts internationally, build the cred internationally, recruit the talent, build infrastructure, have the GFOD in place and then put those 12 'knowledgeable' people on the ground to accomplish the mission....   what about your pre insertion intel, multiple exfil plans, did you forget permission to carry weapons and ammo in a foreign country, getting 'invited' to that contry in the first place...  and where is your 'collateral damage' insurance.........   You put 12 essentially underequipped civilians into a country they know nothing about to plan a mission without any contacts and enough money in their 'intel' account to get them killed multiple times by the good guys..........  You planned "Deliverance on Steroids" starring Larry Darryl, Darryl, Joe Bob and Clem.......  with Boko Haram as the rednecks.


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## Marauder06 (May 22, 2014)

I'd like to revisit some earlier posts before this thread gets too far off track.  

To begin with, several people have observed that "we should act," "we must act," "we have an obligation," etc.  I fundamentally reject all of those arguments.

The US is under no such blanket obligation.  Let me check the Constitution... nope, nothing about "solve all the world's problems for them" there.  Anything in the US Code?  Nope, nothing that I'm aware of (although I must admit I haven't read all of them).  Supreme Court decisions?  Can't think of any.  Presidential directives?  Probably not, since it wouldn't be Constitutional.  Treaty requirements?  Don't think so.  So why do people say we're somehow obligated to intervene?

Now, as far as the cost goes, I think that's moot because we have yet to set the parameters of what our endstate needs to be.  We should start with the endstate--an ACHIEVEABLE endstate--and work backwards from there.

So, what is the desired endstate for a US intervention in this situation?

Finally, having said all of the above, I re-iterate that the US *should* get involved and help Nigeria recover their citizens and end the threat of Boko Haram, but only to a limited extent that enables Nigeria to do the work it should be doing itself, and only because such action helps serve US interests.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 22, 2014)

The endstate should be Nigerian forces getting back as many of those girls as possible, establishing it internal security and capabilities to stop future kidnappings and take the offensive on Boko Haram, before Nigeria become a failed state and further destabilizes the region. Why should we get involved now? Because the problem will grow to a point where the international community will demand action, which likely will require boots on the ground to deal with.

Outside of that, morally I think the world has an obligation to stop human trafficing (not just us).

But obviously my opinions don't matter...


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## x SF med (May 22, 2014)

@Marauder06 -  I agree with your assessment, we are under no politically deigned obligation to solve the problems of any other nation, especially given the issues here at home, where we are politically and morally obligated to protect and nurture our own citizens (further issues here, but that's not germane to this discussion).  What end state do we wish to achieve?  Stabilization of the current Nigerian political entity, corruption,  nepotism, infighting and divisional separations? A governmental change to a more 'acceptable' model?  What are the far flung repercussions of any action we take to facilitate any end state - political, moral, ethical, fiscal, and reputational?  Do we reinstate a modern form of the Monroe doctrine based on the needs of Nigeria?  It will be expected - in a form closer to a global New Deal...  a benevolent empire where we prop up chosen regions to propagate US policies where we decide that those regions have unacceptable political or social mechanisms?   Do we fall into the abyss of our current and Russia's past in Afghanistan, only targeted globally?  We are risking reputational and financial ruin should we choose this path without a direct request from any government, Nigeria specifically in this case.

@JAB - the moral and ethical implications of human trafficking are tragic and wrong based on our current Judeo-Christian mindset - BUT, human trafficking/slavery are called for in the Q'ran for all unbelievers, and we as European Christians dabbled in this horrific practice for centuries in the Christian and Pre-Christian eras; Africa and the indigenous cultures there still practice slavery between tribes, it is rampant throughout the world.  We cannot force our beliefs on others simply because we believe we are 'right'...  Were we to unilaterally place ourselves into this situation, we could be expected to reply with force or training for every tribal slave raid throughout the world.  I agree, the situation is horrific, BUT if we wipe out Boko Haram, will we feed the fire of Islamic fundamentalism and create 10 more groups worse than Boko Haram?

This situation needs to be looked at in more than a microscopic slide, it needs to be addressed by looking at all the ramifications that could spawned - like a viral culture...  The issue is akin Pandora's Box...  if we open it, what will fly out that can never be put back?  And, will what we have wrought destroy us, or inflict suffering on us for eternity?


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## Centermass (May 23, 2014)

x SF med said:


> You planned "Deliverance on Steroids" starring Larry Darryl, Darryl, Joe Bob and Clem.......  with Boko Haram as the rednecks.



Hey guys, paddle faster...I hear banjos.....


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## Rabid Badger (May 23, 2014)

inside of an NDA, who says "we" haven't been on the ground all along, collecting, training.....Oh look----FID.

Mara hit the nail on the head, you don't go in planning to fail, you go in with SUCCESS as your endstate but you do plan for contingencies.

Another point to consider - as the threat level goes up, so does the cost of doing bizness.


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## CQB (May 24, 2014)

A background brief. 

http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articl...s_house_of_cards_growth_boko_haram_inequality


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## Rabid Badger (May 27, 2014)

CQB said:


> A background brief.
> 
> http://www.foreignpolicy.com/articles/2014/05/23/nigerias_house_of_cards_growth_boko_haram_inequality


 
and an excellent background brief!!

More today:


> http://www.express.co.uk/news/world...w-location-of-almost-300-abducted-schoolgirls
> 
> *Nigeria officials 'know location' of almost 300 abducted schoolgirls *
> *NIGERIAN officials have tonight claimed they know the location of almost 300 schoolgirls abducted by militant Islamist group Boko Haram.*


 
BUT.........and has been discussed, insulted, re-discussed, re-insulted....the price tag is not only counted in USD (and as I stated the price goes higher ie, more bullets more time on the ground, more intel collect as the threat level rises) this price will be paid in blood, and innocent blood at that.
That's one reason this is such a delicate operation. The Nigerian sovereignty must be recognized (and lets just say it, palms greased) so that they receive the credit when this gets resolved, and yes, with US taxpayer dollars.

As the poll questions "To go or not to go"? I would go, and I would go IOT see those little faces when the pipehitters picked them up in their arms and told them "It's OK, you're going home now". Price be damned.


​


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 27, 2014)

I took a few days to reflect on my comments, some of them are pretty foolish and well outside my lane of knowledge.  I get a bit worked up over the child trafficing and when I don't understand comments from people I tend to admire, I have a tendency to shit my brain out and post foolish things. I do apologize if I offended anyone, and although a hard pill to swallow at times, appreciate the "tune up". I'll stay in my lane.


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## LibraryLady (May 28, 2014)

Granted it's not Nigeria, but it's interesting that Nigerianwatch.com saw fit to post it.  Kudos to these ladies for protecting their own.

LOCAL women in the villages of Attagara and Kawuri in Borno State disarmed 10 Boko Haram terrorists who tried to attack their communities over the weekend resulting in the lynching of seven of the insurgents.   As part of its ongoing reign of terror, Boko Haram tried to spread its operations to Attagara and Kawuri villages in Gwoza and Bama Local Government Areas of Borno State. However, they were resisted by a group of women using local charms among other things and were disarmed.   After the women repelled the attacks, they then raised the alarm and the rest of the community rallied round to apprehend the insurgents. Three of the terrorists fled but seven were arrested and lynched by an irate mob.   One  resident said the attackers invaded the village yesterday on motorcycles but ran into the  women and wanted to hit them with sticks but when they raised the sticks, their hands refused to descend. The women then notified the local vigilante group, which rushed to the scene, disarmed the seven insurgents and lynched them.   According to the resident: “Three of the insurgents fled but seven were not lucky as the women alerted the people.”   Attagara, a border community with Cameroon is about 10 kilometres southeast of Pulka District in Gwoza Local Government Area of Borno State and about 130 kilometres from Maiduguri, the state capital. Of late, local people across Borno state have stepped up the fightback against Boko Haram, having borne the brunt of its brutal terrorist campaign.   Yesterday, scores of gunmen suspected to be members of Boko Haram were killed yesterday through the combined efforts of members of the vigilante youths, otherwise known as the Civilian Joint Task Force and the military in Kawuri village in Bama Local Government Area of Borno State. Mamman Yakubu, a vigilante youth that participated in repelling the insurgents, said they lynched the terrorists because Boko Haram members hardly reveal any secrets when arrested.   One top security source, who confirmed the incident, said that three dead bodies of the terrorists were recovered yesterday morning in Kawuri. He added that more of the terrorists were killed in a nearby bus, close to Kawuri when they attempted to flee to the Sambisa Forest. - See more at: http://www.nigerianwatch.com/news/4...eir-communities#sthash.0YQEAuaW.Exp4Mp7L.dpuf

The comments section is interesting.

LL


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## pardus (May 28, 2014)

LibraryLady said:


> Granted it's not Nigeria, but it's interesting that Nigerianwatch.com saw fit to post it.
> LL



Actually Borno state _is_ in Nigeria.



Boko Haram is conducting raids armed with sticks now???  
Glad those African charms are still working...


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## LibraryLady (May 28, 2014)

pardus said:


> Actually Borno state _is_ in Nigeria...


I stand corrected, can I blame old age?

LL


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## x SF med (May 28, 2014)

LibraryLady said:


> I stand corrected, can I blame old age?
> 
> LL



No.  You must apologize with cookies for everybody you have met in person or on the phone that is a member of this board.  Will somebody second this motion?


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## LibraryLady (May 28, 2014)

x SF med said:


> No.  You must apologize with cookies for everybody you have met in person or on the phone that is a member of this board.  Will somebody second this motion?



Where do you plan to sleep tonight?  :-"

LL


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## x SF med (May 28, 2014)

LibraryLady said:


> Where do you plan to sleep tonight?  :-"
> 
> LL



In my bed.:troll:  You?


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## Marine0311 (May 28, 2014)

x SF med said:


> No.  You must apologize with cookies for everybody you have met in person or on the phone that is a member of this board.  Will somebody second this motion?



I second the motion.


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## x SF med (May 28, 2014)

And now, back to the original topic...


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## Viper1 (May 28, 2014)

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27504924

I don't think the world realizes how right the former Prime Minister is.


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## medicchick (May 28, 2014)

x SF med said:


> No.  You must apologize with cookies for everybody you have met in person or on the phone that is a member of this board.  Will somebody second this motion?


I will only agree if they are Ranger cookies.


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## DA SWO (May 28, 2014)

x SF med said:


> No.  You must apologize with cookies for everybody you have met in person or on the phone that is a member of this board.  Will somebody second this motion?


Third, can I get a phone number....


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## CQB (May 28, 2014)

Interesting to note the poll split is 50-50 now.


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## pardus (May 28, 2014)

Viper1 said:


> http://www.bbc.com/news/business-27504924
> 
> I don't think the world realizes how right the former Prime Minister is.



I have to say I'm a little shocked to hear the USA, to name but one country, is not contributing more, a lot more.
It's a hell of a challenge, particularly when dealing with corrupt and/or countries racked with violence but the rewards long term are immeasurable in terms of global and local security, savings in foreign aid,  advancements in science etc...  This maybe the single most important global goal at present. 

A hell of a better investment than giving Pakistan etc... untold millions of dollars too!


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## CQB (May 28, 2014)

Ms. Gillard put a lot of money into Indonesian madrassas which on the face of it looks a bit silly. But as her government pointed out if a person at a madrassa only learns to recite the koran but is left with no other basic life skills, i.e; reading and basic maths, where will they end up? This is what her aid program specifically targeted, education. The current lot in Canberra questioned it when in opposition but settled down when it was pointed out it had a net benefit. One can only hope that they will continue with the program.


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## TLDR20 (May 28, 2014)

I would like it if we fixed American schools before exporting money to fund others education.


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## DA SWO (May 28, 2014)

pardus said:


> I have to say I'm a little shocked to hear the USA, to name but one country, is not contributing more, a lot more.
> It's a hell of a challenge, particularly when dealing with corrupt and/or countries racked with violence but the rewards long term are immeasurable in terms of global and local security, savings in foreign aid,  advancements in science etc...  This maybe the single most important global goal at present.
> 
> A hell of a better investment than giving Pakistan etc... untold millions of dollars too!


Americans soured on Africa after Somalia, content to let the French, Italians, English and Spanish handle the job.


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## pardus (May 28, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> I would like it if we fixed American schools before exporting money to fund others education.



Education here is in trouble and does need fixing.



SOWT said:


> Americans soured on Africa after Somalia, content to let the French, Italians, English and Spanish handle the job.



I'm guessing AFRICOM has signaled a change with that.


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## CQB (May 28, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> I would like it if we fixed American schools before exporting money to fund others education.


That IMO would put the education program at zero as there would be the complaint that the home system isn't fixed yet so why spend elsewhere. It seems to have had an effect in Indonesia & also Yemen, Afghanistan & Ethiopia. The pen does seem to be mightier than the sword sometimes.


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## TLDR20 (May 28, 2014)

CQB said:


> That IMO would put the education program at zero as there would be the complaint that the home system isn't fixed yet so why spend elsewhere. It seems to have had an effect in Indonesia & also Yemen, Afghanistan & Ethiopia. The pen does seem to be mightier than the sword sometimes.



Well our system is not nationalized. I don't like sending federal money overseas when that fed money could be spent on a nationalized education program.


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## CQB (May 29, 2014)

I see what you're getting at but do you see my point? The end results of the two arguments are different. Both alleviate a shortfall in education, but one can curtail radical thought and that's why the madrassas were targeted. It's a CT measure.


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## DA SWO (May 29, 2014)

CQB said:


> I see what you're getting at but do you see my point? The end results of the two arguments are different. Both alleviate a shortfall in education, but one can curtail radical thought and that's why the madrassas were targeted. It's a CT measure.


Except we are not smart enough to drive the curriculum.  We'll ship money with very few strings attached, ensuring we don't insult the local War Lord/Imam/etc.


pardus said:


> Education here is in trouble and does need fixing.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm guessing AFRICOM has signaled a change with that.



AFRICOM was not a decision by the American People, that decision was made by a small group of Politicians.
You still don't see this massive demand for us to rescue Syria, etc.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 29, 2014)

TLDR20 said:


> Well our system is not nationalized. I don't like sending federal money overseas when that fed money could be spent on a nationalized education program.



Why do you want to nationalise the education system? That would take all the competitive ability aways from the state and local government.


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## TLDR20 (May 29, 2014)

JAB said:


> Why do you want to nationalise the education system? That would take all the competitive ability aways from the state and local government.



Competitive ability? What competitive ability is there in education? Do you want the  future leaders of America to be uneducated because their cities were competitive?( this happens now, people from low tax revenue cities get shit education) This is off topic, but wake up, education isn't something that should be different from one city/county/ state to the next. If we want to stay relevant in the future of this planet we need to change the way we do things.

There should not be a difference in the way a person from the rural America is educated than from that if a city person. They need the same information to be successful. Using local tax revenue to fund schools ensures poor people stay poor, and rich people stay rich.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 29, 2014)

I disagree, there is no one size fits all in education, everyone learns in different ways and historically things get worse when the federal gov starts pushing policies that may fit one area but screws up a hundred different areas.

Having a national base line requirement is one thing, nationalism of the entire education system is another. I do not support that at all.


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## TLDR20 (May 29, 2014)

So I know we moved on from this, I just wanted to share this article that shows the true cost of training muldoons in Africa. @JAB 
http://m.military.com/daily-news/20...terterror-teams.html?comp=700001075741&rank=3


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 29, 2014)

Thanks for posting it, I'm still a bit confused on the costs (I would love to get my eyes on a expenditure break down) but the supplying equipment I would imagine adds to the cost significantly. Thanks again!


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## Red Ryder (May 29, 2014)

JAB said:


> I disagree, there is no one size fits all in education, everyone learns in different ways and historically things get worse when the federal gov starts pushing policies that may fit one area but screws up a hundred different areas.
> 
> Having a national base line requirement is one thing, nationalism of the entire education system is another. I do not support that at all.



Did you attend school all in the same area growing up? Just curious.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 29, 2014)

Red Ryder said:


> Did you attend school all in the same area growing up? Just curious.



No, I actually bounced around a lot. High School was at the same school. But from 10th-12th I was in a co-op program going through an apprenticeship.


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## reed11b (May 29, 2014)

x SF med said:


> No.  You must apologize with cookies for everybody you have met in person or on the phone that is a member of this board.  Will somebody second this motion?


 I second.
Reed


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## Red Ryder (May 29, 2014)

JAB said:


> No, I actually bounced around a lot. High School was at the same school. But from 10th-12th I was in a co-op program going through an apprenticeship.



Same here, I went to school in four different states and they all taught differently and it always put me a little behind. The worst was going from 8th grade in Newport, KY to 9th in Cincinnati, OH. Even though they are in different states they are less than a mile from each other and teaching totally different curriculum's! Ohio is all about proficiency test and teaching kids to pass those test, KY isn't so I was really behind the curve when I showed up and had to take a test that all my other classmates have been practicing the past year.

I know this is off topic but I agree with @TLDR20, there needs to be some kind of national standard when it comes to education.


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## x SF med (May 29, 2014)

reed11b said:


> I second.
> Reed



that would actually be 4th or 5th...  attention to detail is good... we had the second, and were back on topic, mostly.


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## AWP (May 29, 2014)

I saw this and it fits perfectly with the discussion IMO.


> UGANDA — Telling reporters that he “absolutely loves this job,” a Special Forces sergeant training Ugandan soldiers in tactics and marksmanship went on to say he’s really excited to be teaching guys things they will use against him in about five years.




http://www.duffelblog.com/2014/05/special-forces-training-africa/#!RWB9i


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## pardus (May 29, 2014)

Special Forces at work in Africa...

"This is the proper way to shoot, do you understand?"  "Yes? OK great! Good job guys, keep these standards up!"


1 month later, the indigenous troops go into battle...


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## BloodStripe (Sep 18, 2014)

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/09/14/nigeria-girls-kidnapped-5-months_n_5791622.html



> *Remember #BringBackOurGirls? This Is What Has Happened In The 5 Months Since*
> The Huffington Post  | By Charlotte Alfred
> 
> Email
> ...


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## pardus (Sep 18, 2014)

> The army claimed that some of the troops were performing a tactical maneuver.


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## BloodStripe (Apr 3, 2015)

Vice is at their best usually when they embed. This should not disappoint.

https://news.vice.com/video/the-war-against-boko-haram-trailer?utm_source=vicenewsfb


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## Ooh-Rah (Mar 27, 2016)

*Would-Be Suicide Bombers Claim to Be Girls Kidnapped by Boko Haram*

*No free-looks at WSJ, and this was not large enough to bother converting to PDF like I did the last one, here it is in full:*

A pair of young female would-be suicide bombers set off an international investigation over the weekend, when they were arrested at a roadblock in Cameroon, one of them drugged and both insisting they were among the 276 schoolgirls kidnapped from the town of Chibok, Nigerian officials said.

Friday’s arrest offered further testimony to how deeply involved young girls have become in West Africa’s conflict with the Boko Haram Islamist insurgency.

On Sunday, Femi Adesina, a spokesman for Nigeria’s President Muhammadu Buhari said the government was dispatching two parents from Chibok to check whether the girls are their daughters.

But there was also considerable doubt: A second spokesman for the president, Garba Shehu, said the girls may have been only 10 years old, too young to number among the missing high school-aged students.

Boko Haram has kidnapped thousands of boys and girls from the northeast of Nigeria over years. The most high-profile incident occurred on April 14, 2014, when a group of Boko Haram fighters drove Toyota pickups through the gates of the Chibok Government Secondary School. Within hours, they drove off with 276 students, 57 of whom escaped in the days after.

The details of the kidnapping—the girls had been studying for their final exams—helped personalize the plight of the tens of thousands of mostly anonymous people who become victims in the Boko Haram conflict. A storm of tweets and protests across Nigeria and abroad helped inspire increased U.S. involvement in the war, which has cost 28,000 Nigerian lives over the past five years.

Since then, the U.S. has sent drones, manned surveillance planes, and about 300 troops to the border area of Nigeria, Cameroon, Niger and Chad, to help monitor Boko Haram—and free its hostages, including the schoolgirls.

Early on, U.S. planes spotted two large groups of women or girls—roughly 40 in one location, and 70 in another. But the apparent hostages have since been moved and there was no proof they were the Chibok students.

In a statement, the protest group #BringBackOurGirls said it had no confirmation as to whether the girls arrested in Cameroon were, as they claimed, from Chibok. But the group offered guarded hope, saying the arrest represented the first recent lead to the girls’ locations.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Mar 27, 2016)

So I reread this thread, I apologize for ignorant posts of the past. Pretty stupid on my part.


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