# What say the divers of the forum?



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 29, 2013)

http://tbo.com/news/cave-divin...e-training-20131226/

The cliff-notes is that a dad who was certifed to dive (but evidently not certified to cave dive) took his 15 year old son, who was not certified at all, into the mother of all underwater caves and to their tragic deaths.

_TAMPA — Becky Kagan Schott has explored Eagle Nest Sink dozens of times. Her production company made the definitive video on the popular cave-diving site. She speaks with authority in assessing the unassuming Hernando County pond.

“Without proper training, this is a very dangerous place to go,” she said.

Jim Wyatt, a cave-diving instructor for nearly 40 years, concurred.

“This is not a place for novices,” he said.

But Darrin Spivey and his son, Dillon Sanchez, slid into the water on Christmas Day without the advanced training and certification recommended for such a dive. Theirs were not the first bodies to be pulled from Eagle Nest Sink.

At least eight have died there since 1981 in an atmosphere where the senses can betray and panic can be fatal. _


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 29, 2013)

It can be dangerous as hell to go cave diving.  I always wanted to do it but couldn't find a partner who was willing to get certified with me.  I did some cavern diving once down in a natural spring in Florida (in cavern diving you can still see the way out, in cave diving you can't.  Just being in that cavern, even with no silt and perfectly clear water, in the daytime, I got confused and turned around.  I was never in any real danger because I could still see sunlight, but I can totally see how people get confused, lost, and drowned inside caves.


----------



## TLDR20 (Dec 29, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> It can be dangerous as hell to go cave diving.  I always wanted to do it but couldn't find a partner who was willing to get certified with me.  I did some cavern diving once down in a natural spring in Florida (in cavern diving you can still see the way out, in cave diving you can't.  Just being in that cavern, even with no silt and perfectly clear water, in the daytime, I got confused and turned around.  I was never in any real danger because I could still see sunlight, but I can totally see how people get confused, lost, and drowned inside caves.



I'll dive with ya....


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 29, 2013)

TLDR20 said:


> I'll dive with ya....



Thanks brother, that means a lot.  But I'm about ten years past my cave diving window at this point, lol. I even sold my dive gear at a garage sale this past Spring.

I'm always down for some above-the-surface caving though.  Still have my equipment for that.


----------



## AWP (Dec 30, 2013)

I don't think you need to be a diver to know that these two (well, the dad) were dumb and paid for it. You avoid fatalities by "breaking the chain" and these clowns just kept adding links.

For anyone who is interested, check out _The Last Dive_ by Bernie Chowdhury. It covers a father and son who died while diving on a U-Boat. More than that, it gives the reader a brief history of SCUBA and explanations of cave diving, mixed gas diving, good dives, bad dives, etc. As an outsider I really enjoyed it.

http://www.amazon.com/The-Last-Dive-Father-Descent/dp/0060932597


----------



## DA SWO (Dec 30, 2013)

What is it with novice divers who don't see a need for additional training?

We had a similar case when I was on Guam, novice diver and some non-qualified tourists entered a wreck to explore.  They got lost, found a pocket of semi-toxic air and the qualified diver managed to get out.

This one had a happy ending as the diver hit surface just as a dive boat was going by; they stopped, put dive masters in and rescued 2 of 3 (IIRC) tourists.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Dec 30, 2013)

The second time I've heard about "toxic air".   Help a non-SCUBA guy understand why that matters if the divers are wearing tanks?


----------



## Marauder06 (Dec 30, 2013)

Ooh-Rah1069 said:


> The second time I've heard about "toxic air".   Help a non-SCUBA guy understand why that matters if the divers are wearing tanks?



I think you may be talking about two different things.  The "semi-toxic air" in the post above refers to an air pocket that the divers encountered that they were able to use to breathe independent of their tanks.  There's also a different condition called "nitrogen narcosis" that I've also heard referred to as "bad air."  This is something that happens with your tanks in use.


----------



## AWP (Dec 30, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> I think you may be talking about two different things.  The "semi-toxic air" in the post above refers to an air pocket that the divers encountered that they were able to use to breathe independent of their tanks.  There's also a different condition called "nitrogen narcosis" that I've also heard referred to as "bad air."  This is something that happens with your tanks in use.



At certain depths oxygen becomes toxic as well. It is relatively shallow too, but I'll leave that for someone with experience. "Book learnin'" only goes so far in some discussions...


----------



## amlove21 (Dec 30, 2013)

Marauder06 said:


> I think you may be talking about two different things.  The "semi-toxic air" in the post above refers to an air pocket that the divers encountered that they were able to use to breathe independent of their tanks.  There's also a different condition called "nitrogen narcosis" that I've also heard referred to as "bad air."  This is something that happens with your tanks in use.


 "Bad Air" is typically carbon monoxide, from the incorrect filling of tanks or the wrong mixture in tanks. Usually, only CO is referred to as "bad air".

Ive never heard of nitro narcosis being called "bad air"- to stay away from nitro narcosis, nitrox or other mixtures are used at greater depths.

And yes, O2 is also toxic under pressures.

Sad to see such a misatke- cave diving is dangerous. Rule of thumb- any time a sport kills it's pioneers, the best people at the sport- don't do that sport as an amateur. Wing suit flying, cave diving, free climbing- all sports that killed the people that were at the top of the soprt.


----------



## CQB (Dec 30, 2013)

I have been a Splat Cat and a diver but BASE jumping & cave diving are my limits. Be fucked.


----------



## DasBoot (Dec 30, 2013)

CQB said:


> I have been a Splat Cat and a diver but BASE jumping & cave diving are my limits. Be fucked.


I want to try wing suiting someday I could do that and regular climbing and diving. Free soloing and cave diving though- nope. After seeing a video on divers going into the Florida aquifer, I am terrified just thinking of cave diving. I feel awful for the kid who died all because of his fathers poor judgement. 

As an aside, here's the video I mentioned- note the scene where he gets stuck.... http://www.floridasprings.org/expedition/videos/


----------



## amlove21 (Dec 30, 2013)

By the way- worst way to die. By far. You're swimming along, having a grand old time- you get fouled. You cant get out. Your dive buddy has to leave you to get help, maybe he leaves you a little of his air, maybe he cant.

And there you sit. until you die.


----------



## CQB (Jan 1, 2014)

People are awesome. There's some batwing stuff in this, plus some other insane stuff. The guy jumping the car...I'm speechless.


----------



## BeardedConservative (Jan 9, 2014)

I love diving and the thought of cave diving does intrigue, but regardless of being adventurous or just want to test your limits you have to get the certs. As for the above video, I love the batsuits and other crazy feats.


----------



## goon175 (Jan 12, 2014)

Free climbing…. one of the few things that I have absolutely zero interest in ever doing.


----------



## Johca (Jan 12, 2014)

With both wreck diving and cave diving the issue is if you rum out of air or the regulator malfunction you are prevented by bulk heads or rock from doing an emergency free accent.  Most recreational divers lack the buddy breathing skills to navigate travel through confined spaces.

Bad air in the scenario being discussed always refers to trapped gas pockets and not the air in the tank.

An air pocket can be air, but in many instances it can be methane from decaying organic matter over the years, or carbon dioxide, or in wrecks most often gas from batteries and other sources.


----------



## Johca (Jan 12, 2014)

Regarding cave diving.  Often the exploration of a cave using SCUBA is not because it's below the surface of a lake or ocean.  Regardless caves often do have dangerous gas pocket gotten to after diving through the flooded area into a cavern that is beyond the flooded area.

http://news.discovery.com/history/archaeology/gate-to-hell-found-in-turkey-130329.htm  gives an example that caves may not have a breathable atmosphere or a breathable trapped gas area.


----------



## Johca (Jan 13, 2014)

Stumbled across this  http://www.washingtonpost.com/local...134872-5dee-11e3-95c2-13623eb2b0e1_story.html    All I got to say is, WTF is going on with diver qualification training these days?????

"It was only a training evaluation, but no Navy scuba dive had gone below 130 feet in years."  I just looked at my initial military qualification requirement to complete the course and the document all indicate at least one SCUBA dive to a depth of 90 feet was required.  My dive log shows I actually went down to 125 feet and operationally within a year I had done operational necessary SCUBA dives to 180 feet.  Also with in my military medical records and dive log info is an AF Form 1360 Oxygen sensitivity/tolerance and pressure test documenting (test dated 19 November 1973) in a chamber I demonstrated ability to withstand a pressure of 50 psi or 112 feet of sea water and breathing 100% oxygen for 30 minutes at 26.7 psi or 60 feet of sea water.

"The dive was supposed to have been done with Mark 16 re-breather units, which recycle air and allow more time underwater." "But two of the four Mark 16s were broken, and three had to be working for a dive to be made."  The accuracy of such news reporting cannot be considered reliable, but that is one heck of an unserviceable equipment problem causing a change of dive equipment change which also imposed significant duration availability of something to breath at depth and change in decompression procedure.


----------

