# School/Mass shootings are now part of our culture.



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 15, 2018)

School shootings are part of our culture now, they just are.

I would like to discuss what is that we as parents can actually do to try and protect our kids at school. 

Recently I was surfing the net and saw bullet resistant backpacks.

There was a discussion at the cigar store a few weeks ago where one of the dads (who is a paramedic) made "blow out kits" for his teenage sons.  They sit at the bottom of their backpacks and they know how to use it.

Do we talk to our kids enough about telling an adult if they hear of a kid or know of a kid who write "I'm killing everyone" or similar noise on their social media page? 

In the case of the most recent shooting, the shooter pulled the fire alarms to get students out into the hallways.  How should kids react?  Fall down and 'play dead'?  Hide?

Does any of the above even matter?  I don't know.  But I know that I 'carry' literally everywhere it is legal to do so, and sometimes in areas that may be a gray line.  My kids do not have that option, as a dad who is charged with protecting my children, what am I doing to help put the odds in their favor at least a little bit?


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## AWP (Feb 15, 2018)

Violence is a part of our culture. School shootings are just a new arena.

I think the kids in Arkansas years agoi did the fire alarm trick too. Not much you can do to stop that.

Schools are soft targets. UNless they are hardened they will continue to be vulnerable places. Combine teen angst, bullying, etc., they are places with serious emotional connections and will always be a target.


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## DA SWO (Feb 15, 2018)

I wonder when (if?) these shooters start to understand what they did?  
It seems (to me) that our younger generation demands respect, but is unwilling to give respect to others.


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## Devildoc (Feb 15, 2018)

We homeschool.  No way I am sending my kids into a combat zone.

No judgment to those that do--we all have our reasons why we do what we do.


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## Poccington (Feb 15, 2018)

Politicians brought forth legislation to make tide pods look less edible so people would stop eating them.

Politicians complete inaction when it comes to gun control, is unbelievable to me. Now admittedly, I don't live in the US and I understand it's a constitutional issue but fuck me...


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 15, 2018)

We protect our sporting events with guns. I recall news coverage of the recent Super Bowl's security measures, snipers on the roof top, roaving patrols, metal detectors ect. Everyone was ok with guns there and I believe many expected it. We protect shopping malls, celebrities, politicians, money, anything of value we protect with guns. So I ask why is it so unthinkable to protect our schools with guns?


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## Devildoc (Feb 15, 2018)

Poccington said:


> P
> Politicians complete inaction when it comes to gun control, is unbelievable to me. Now admittedly, I don't live in the US and I understand it's a constitutional issue but fuck me...



It is such a Gordian knot of unbelievable complexity it isn't even funny.  Believe me, if there was an easy answer, there would be action.  It's not just that it is constitutional.  It's also social and economic.


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## x SF med (Feb 15, 2018)

IMO...  much of what we are seeing here can be tracked back to lack of discipline, lack of moral/ethical code, lack of personal responsibility and the "I'm special" mindset.  Community has become cliques, identification has become less village and more gang (LGBQT, hispano-female, afro-activist, sis-gendered alien, etc...) thus creating frictions unknown in the past.  We, as a society do not teach coping skills, but, rather blaming skills...  victimization skills, and entitlement skills.  How does a young person learn to deal with adversity if he/she is removed from adversity by attitude - I don't have to lift myself, I'm a victim, so instead of finding a workable solution, I'll grab dad's gun and kill my classmates - that'll get me on the news, I'll be famous.

Our society has become a hide, run, blame culture; where it used to be a confront and overcome culture.  The false open liberal attitudes that actually squash the exchange of ideas and reduce strength by adversity, replacing it with weakness by victimization is eroding the moral and ethical fiber of all.

again, just MOO.


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## SaintKP (Feb 15, 2018)

Poccington said:


> Politicians brought forth legislation to make tide pods look less edible so people would stop eating them.
> 
> Politicians complete inaction when it comes to gun control, is unbelievable to me. Now admittedly, I don't live in the US and I understand it's a constitutional issue but fuck me...



Personally I believe the easy argument is that it's part of the constitution so it can never be changed regardless of the affects it may or may not have and regardless of how many changes have actually been done to the constitution. But the fact of the matter is (IMO) as @AWP said, violence is part of our culture, hell this country was formed on it. Just as I imagine that we'll always try and be at the forefront militarily speaking, we'll scratch and bite to keep our guns because it's just who we are at this point.

But the main issue isn't gun control in my opinion, it's the fact that there is so little spotlight on mental health, granted we've made leaps and bounds from when you would get an ice pick to your prefrontal cortex. There is still a ton that is never mentioned or it gets drowned out by other "outrage issues". Add into the mix the absolute horror show that is Highschool if you happen to be one of the "unlucky ones" and you have a recipe for disaster.

Take Elliot Rodgers for example, he went on a rampage in California a few years ago targeting a bunch of sororities. But the thing is, all of that could have probably been avoided if the parents were paying the slightest amount of attention in what he was saying and doing. A couple of months after the rampage emails of Elliot's conversations with his parents came to light and anyone with an iota of a brain cell could see right away that he was a sick sick puppy traveling on a dead end street.

I'm sorry but I strongly feel that a lot of these things could have been avoided if the parents were more involved.


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## JSR684 (Feb 15, 2018)

It's been released that the FBI was made aware of the Florida shooter back in September when someone received a comment about him saying he was going to be a professional school shooter. Plus, his social media was full of very disturbing posts all before it was all removed yesterday. The issue of gun control is very......complex. There are so many factors involved. Cultural, economic, poverty, organized crime, geographical, population density etc etc etc. Gun control isn't a "one size fits all" solution, I just hope that one day our legislators can sit down and actually talk without subjective political agendas behind them (wishful thinking).


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## SaintKP (Feb 15, 2018)

JSR684 said:


> It's been released that the FBI was made aware of the Florida shooter back in September when someone received a comment about him saying he was going to be a professional school shooter. Plus, his social media was full of very disturbing posts all before it was all removed yesterday




This is what pisses me off the most, there were all these warning signs and posts that have been called disturbing and alarming, and yet no one sat down with the kid. No one thought to themselves that, hey this isn't just teenage angst but there is actual meaning behind it?

I get trying to be an edgy cunt going through high school, hell black humor is still my favorite kind. But come the fuck on, how did no one catch this, not his friends, not the "family friend" he was living with hell the FBI was apparently made aware of this shit. Whatever. It's just going to turn into a political grandstanding circle jerk of gun control vs carry on campus.


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## 256 (Feb 15, 2018)

x SF med said:


> IMO...  much of what we are seeing here can be tracked back to lack of discipline, lack of moral/ethical code, lack of personal responsibility and the "I'm special" mindset.  Community has become cliques, identification has become less village and more gang (LGBQT, hispano-female, afro-activist, sis-gendered alien, etc...) thus creating frictions unknown in the past.  We, as a society do not teach coping skills, but, rather blaming skills...  victimization skills, and entitlement skills.  How does a young person learn to deal with adversity if he/she is removed from adversity by attitude - I don't have to lift myself, I'm a victim, so instead of finding a workable solution, I'll grab dad's gun and kill my classmates - that'll get me on the news, I'll be famous.
> 
> Our society has become a hide, run, blame culture; where it used to be a confront and overcome culture.  The false open liberal attitudes that actually squash the exchange of ideas and reduce strength by adversity, replacing it with weakness by victimization is eroding the moral and ethical fiber of all.
> 
> again, just MOO.



Agreed. There’s a real lack of caring for life and morals. I’m not a religious man but I firmly believe that we pull our morals from the teachings. When you walk into a church it’s mostly full of the elderly, unless it’s Christmas or Easter. 

I also think the only way to lessen the effectiveness of these shootings is to arm and train our teaching staff. They may not be on the next bird to get the leader of ISIS but a good guy with a gun is better than nothing. Especially, if there are a number of armed and trained staff members. It would take time to develop a program but so far School Resource Officers, metal detectors and gates aren’t helping. 

If anything it’s a deterrent.


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## Crimson (Feb 15, 2018)

I agree 100% with everything that @x SF med stated. It's a personal integrity issue. Now I could defer to the religious argument to trace the lack of morality in this country, but I'll spare you all. To bring it back down to the worldly perspective, we are a divided people, hateful and weak minded. Our young people struggle now, more than ever, with personal identity issues coupled with the incapacity for empathy. These same people watch and worship some of the most disgusting public figures that this country has to offer. It all of starts in the home.



256 said:


> I also think the only way to lessen the effectiveness of these shootings is to arm and train our teaching staff.



As great as this sounds...it would have to be on a strict volunteer basis only and could never become actual policy. It's just not their job. However, I understand the logic of it.

To answer the OP's question...increased security measures would seem like the "best" short term solution.


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## Frank S. (Feb 15, 2018)

This latest incident will only further the divide between political parties so I wouldn't look for anything worthwhile from "the professionals".
This can happen literally anywhere, so Devildoc's solution (homeschooling) makes absolute sense. For those who can't, having one stay at home parent to perform the role of FBI and State Department, engaging the school admin, watching over kids' online activity, looking for clues and signs may be necessary.

But that's only the beginning. A grandmother in Washington state turned in her grandson for a planned shooting. Student accused of plotting Everett school shooting could be charged today

This case may be interesting in terms of how proactive LE can be expected to be.


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## DC (Feb 15, 2018)

Armed professionals, not Allied Barton cell phone addicts, on campus. 
TRAIN staff for behavioral identifiers of students and parents.
Close campus. Open campus allows anyone in anytime. 
Mandatory active shooter training and drills. A lot of schools ignore this warning.
Report and act on ALL warning signs regardless of political correctness.
Charge adults who allow weapons to fall into the hands of juveniles.

What a complete travesty. This shit must stop.



256 said:


> Agreed. There’s a real lack of caring for life and morals. I’m not a religious man but I firmly believe that we pull our morals from the teachings. When you walk into a church it’s mostly full of the elderly, unless it’s Christmas or Easter.
> 
> I also think the only way to lessen the effectiveness of these shootings is to arm and train our teaching staff. They may not be on the next bird to get the leader of ISIS but a good guy with a gun is better than nothing. Especially, if there are a number of armed and trained staff members. It would take time to develop a program but so far School Resource Officers, metal detectors and gates aren’t helping.
> 
> If anything it’s a deterrent.



I would not ever put a weapon in the hands of a teacher. Liability alone is huge. Use private security that is proven in a protection services role. No uniform, no duty belt just concealed carry ready to react to threats. Interfaces with staff to gather intel. I do part time EP now and this can be done simply and quickly. Problem is cost. We are not cheap. School budgets as well as corporate mindset make the costs more than the bean counters want to pay.


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## Gunz (Feb 15, 2018)

You can't regulate crazy and you can't regulate hate... If the perp didn't have access to guns he would've found another way to kill. Its not that hard to make a homemade bomb or Molotov cocktails or drive a car into a crowd. 

Schools need closed campuses (thank you @DC) and swipable passcode badges that can be confiscated upon suspension or expulsion...or when threats are reported.


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## DC (Feb 15, 2018)

America Under Fire - Official Series Site | SHOWTIME

I watched this series. Excellent real-time analysis of various incidents.


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## Frank S. (Feb 15, 2018)

DC said:


> Problem is cost. We are not cheap. School budgets as well as corporate mindset make the costs more than the bean counters want to pay.



You're absolutely right about that.


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## Devildoc (Feb 15, 2018)

DC said:


> Armed professionals, not Allied Barton cell phone addicts, on campus.
> TRAIN staff for behavioral identifiers of students and parents.
> Close campus. Open campus allows anyone in anytime.
> Mandatory active shooter training and drills. A lot of schools ignore this warning.
> ...



Agree with all but some of this they do and they choose to not implement it; specifically, training staff to identify and report.  There are headlines about teachers reporting things...to no avail.  Or reporting...then being sued by parents.  Or being afraid to report for fear of being accused of racism/sexism/whateverism.  I agree it needs to be done.  They are supposed to be doing it now.  Administration needs to insulate staff who report.


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## J. (Feb 15, 2018)

Why not hire former Military of Police as armed guards. Not with an overbearing presence but with a presence none the less. Have a reaction force, teach students more about responding to an active shooter, harden schools entry, exists, emergency procedures, surveillance etc. 

Back in high school we had two armed deputies roving the halls, one K9, a first entry surrounded by bulletproof glass and a camera that required identification, a send entry that required a human to see you visually, no hats, coats, etc. Bags searched, social media investigated...it worked. I never felt an invasion of space or privacy and all of our security measures were seamless. More schools should get on board with the idea. Privacy, and personal opinions about firearms should not be involved when it comes to protecting schools.


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## DC (Feb 15, 2018)

My company only hires off duty/ Ret. PD and mil. There are many companies that use this criteria. A lot of us have been suggesting it to deaf ears. Sadly they want the supermarket guard for 10$ hour to do the same job.

Insulating staff,parents and other students from lawsuits is key. That’s a better job for politicians than gun free zones or gun control.


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## R.Caerbannog (Feb 15, 2018)

@Ooh-Rah
School shootings are not a part of American culture. For something to be a cultural construct, the practice has to be common, prevalent, and accepted by the society at large over a long period of time. What we are seeing now is not something like that. The actions of deranged individuals don't define us a nation or our culture.

I'm sorry that as a parent you don't feel that your kids are safe, but things have really gotten better for children here in the USA. Infant mortality rate is down, life expectancy is up, and treatment of diseases that used to seriously mess up children have been eradicated. Heck, not even a hundred years ago, kids and teens were considered an expendable labor force in the manufacturing sector. The best we can do is give the our children the tools to grow strong, we can't insulate them from the world.


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## DC (Feb 15, 2018)

@Caerbannog 
I honestly without disrespect have no idea how to respond to your comments under this headline. 
Insulate? Maybe not 100%
Protect... with my life.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 15, 2018)

This paragraph ....


R.Caerbannog said:


> I'm sorry that as a parent you don't feel that your kids are safe, but things have really gotten better for children here in the USA. Infant mortality rate is down, life expectancy is up, and treatment of diseases that used to seriously mess up children have been eradicated. Heck, not even a hundred years ago, kids and teens were considered an expendable labor force in the manufacturing sector. The best we can do is give the our children the tools to grow strong, we can't insulate them from the world.



Has nothing to do with this paragraph. 


R.Caerbannog said:


> School shootings are not a part of American culture. For something to be a cultural construct, the practice has to be common, prevalent, and accepted by the society at large over a long period of time. What we are seeing now is not something like that.





R.Caerbannog said:


> The actions of deranged individuals don't define us a nation or our culture.


But what we do to address these individuals does. And we don’t do nearly enough.


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## CQB (Feb 15, 2018)

On January 1st, 1901 our nation was born, it just came into existence as a nation. There was plenty of debate beforehand, but no violence. The US fought a revolution to achieve what it became and this is a fundamental difference between the two nations. The principle stance after three incidents here known as the Strathfield, Hoddle Street & Port Arthur massacres revolved around three fundamental issues: sports shooters should be licensed, those who use firearms as a tool of trade will be exempt (farmers, kangaroo shooters for example), and the general population should not have casual access to firearms.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 15, 2018)

School shootings have been around for years... the population has increased, thus crazy ass people population has increased. They don't segregate the crazy people anymore. Special classrooms for special people, nope they toss those nuttbags right into the mix with the regular students. Making it incredibly difficult for the teacher, other students and obviously controlled environment for nuttbags. Why? They want to treat unnormal people as normal.  Social experiment failure at its best.

I blame modern psychology/sociology for much of today's short falls. Yes it parenting, yes it's discipline, yes it's a lack of empathy for fellow humans, etc. But who has been pushing the "don't discipline your kids, unless done specifically like this" bullshit? Who is saying retards are not retards and should be treated like normal people? Who is saying its okay for people to want to change their gender, or worse not change their gender but run around lying to everyone, and then force everyone else to play into that twisted lie...

Don't get me wrong, there is a lot of good that has come from the proffession psychology, but there is also a lot of pseudoscience bullshit...

My $.02


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## DocIllinois (Feb 15, 2018)

I think @AWP is correct - violence pervades our culture, and from the time of European immigration.  The US was conceived and nurtured by it.  We're even entertained by it.  

School shootings like this one are a tragedy but not necessarily shocking from a numbers standpoint.  Just taking the months of January through April of 2017, there were already 1,000 shooting victims in the city of Chicago alone.

  Cultural change needs to happen, IMO, which would require a huge amount of work over several generations.  I don't know that Americans can stop squabbling over this issue or sending "thoughts and prayers" for long enough to get anywhere in conversations to make that happen.


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## R.Caerbannog (Feb 15, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> School shootings are part of our culture now, they just are.
> 
> I would like to discuss what is that we as parents can actually do to try and protect our kids at school.
> 
> ...





Ooh-Rah said:


> This paragraph ....
> 
> 
> Has nothing to do with this paragraph.
> ...


@Ooh-Rah based on the thread title and the tone of your initial post, I assumed that one of the underlying thread topics was the impact that this event has on the psyche of parents wanting their children to be safe at school. 

Based on your initial post I understand that this is a sensitive and emotionally charged topic for you and many other parents right now. I was trying to reassure you by alluding to how far we have progressed as a society and how much things have improved for us here in the United States. 

While violence at schools is not something to be taken lightly, I think we are sensationalizing mass casualty events at schools. We can curse the heavens when events like these happen, but ultimately we cannot control everything. Broadcasting our grief, anguish, and fear only makes these events a much more attractive target for deranged individuals. 



DC said:


> @Caerbannog
> I honestly without disrespect have no idea how to respond to your comments under this headline.
> Insulate? Maybe not 100%
> Protect... with my life.


What I'm trying to get at is that kids now-a-days live in a very dynamic and interconnected world. Since kids have access to as much or more information than some adults, I think the best one can do is to try and give them the tools to live a just moral life without fear. The paramedic dad whose kids have and know how to use 'blowout kits', is a good example of a parent arming his kids with knowledge.


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## medicchick (Feb 15, 2018)

Last year my daughters school was set up so that to get in you had to wait in a secured area between doors, be identified and sign in.  Even then they usually would just send the child out to you if you were picking up.  Her school for the next two years you just walk in and are supposed to go to the office.  All the room have exterior doors they use 90% of the time.  Not a fan of the setup now.  They had police officers at all schools today (as they always do after school shootings) and the middle/high schools have armed guards all day, every day.  We live in a small town but this school year alone there was a credible bomb threat at the high school that had Navy EOD called.

Bibby has been doing lockdown drills at school since she started, they seem as normal as fire drills to her.  We try to talk about them but at 7 there is only so much kids understand.  She does know to listen to her teacher or other adults she knows on what to do.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 15, 2018)

Mass/school shootings are not unique to the United States. Bad people will do bad things regardless of the law.

*Paris, France*
*November, 2015*
Terrorists claiming allegiance to Islamic State carried out several coordinated attacks in the city, including shootings of pedestrians on the street and a mass shootings at the Bataclan theatre. One hundred and thirty people were killed in the combined attacks.

*Paris, France*
*January, 2015*
Islamist gunmen stormed the office of Charlie Hebdo, a satirical weekly magazine, and killed 12 people, including the paper's top editors and cartoonists, in anger over its satirical cartoons of Islamic terrorists and the Prophet Muhammad.

*Nairobi, Kenya*
*September, 2013*
Al-Shabab Islamist militants, who are based in Somalia, attacked the upscale Westgate mall in Nairobi, killing nearly 70 people and wounding about 175. The siege latest for three days before government troops could end the attack.

*Utoya, Norway*
*July, 2011*
A gunman disguised as a policeman opened fire at a youth camp for political activists on the small island of Utoya, northwest of Oslo. The gunman, who had been linked to an anti-Islamic group, killed 68 campers. Separately, the gunman set off a bomb in Oslo that killed 8 people.

*Rio de Janeiro, Brazil*
*April, 2011*
A 23-year-old former student returned to his public school in Rio de Janeiro and opened fire on the students, killing 12 children and seriously wounding more than a dozen others, before shooting himself in the head.

*Baku, Azerbaijan*
*April, 2009*
A Georgian citizen of Azerbaijani descent killed 12 students and staff at the Azerbaijan State Oil Academy. Several others were wounded.

*Winnenden, Germany*
*March, 2009*
A 17-year-old boy shot and killed 15 people at his school, Albertville Technical High School, in southwestern Germany.

*Mumbai, India*
*November, 2008*
Islamist terrorists carried out a series of shooting and bombing attacks across the city over the span of several days, including mass shootings at two hotels, the Taj Mahal Palace Hotel and the Oberoi Trident. The attacks left 164 people dead and a further 308 people were wounded.

*Moscow, Russia*
*October, 2002*
A group of armed Chechen militants seized the crowded Dubrovka theater and took 850 people hostage. At least 170 people died in the terrorist attack.

*Erfurt, Germany*
*April, 2002 *
A 19-year-old student opened fire at his secondary school, killing 16 people, including 13 teachers, two students, and one policeman, before killing himself.

*Port Arthur, Australia*
*April, 1996*
A 28-year old man opened fire at a cafe on a historic penal colony site in Tasmania, killing 35 people and wounding 23. It was the worst mass-murderer in modern Australian history.

*Dunblane, Scotland*
*March, 1996 *
A gunman killed 16 children and one teacher at Dunblane Primary School before killing himself.

*Montreal, Canada*
*December, 1989*
A 25-year-old gunman shot 28 people at the École Polytechnique in Montreal, Quebec, killing 14 women, before committing suicide


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## Poccington (Feb 15, 2018)

R.Caerbannog said:


> @Ooh-Rah
> School shootings are not a part of American culture. For something to be a cultural construct, the practice has to be common, prevalent, and accepted by the society at large over a long period of time. What we are seeing now is not something like that. The actions of deranged individuals don't define us a nation or our culture.



I've gotta be honest but from this side of the pond, it seems that school shootings very much are accepted by society at large, given the reactions to these events. I mean, what will actually happen as a result of this particular massacre? People will say it's a tragedy, politicians will offer "thoughts and prayers", the same politicians will then do fuck all about it, the news will eventually move on... Give it a few months, maybe a year or two for the next massacre to happen and the whole cycle will happen again. 

The complete inaction of politicians following events like these, would indicate it's very much accepted.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 15, 2018)

@Poccington what actions should politicians take?


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## DC (Feb 15, 2018)

I think in action by politicians is worldwide not just in the US.


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## Poccington (Feb 15, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> Mass/school shootings are not unique to the United States. Bad people will do bad things regardless of the law.
> 
> *Paris, France*
> *November, 2015*
> ...



They're pretty isolated events, stretched across multiple continents and a timeline of nearly 30 years.

Just this year alone in the US, there have been 8 shootings on school campuses that have involved death or injury. No other Western country has gun attacks on innocent civilians on the scale or regularity that the US has.


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## DC (Feb 15, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> @Poccington what actions should politicians take?



Politicians take action when it serves them not us. Its on parents raising thier kids with a moral compass with consequence.


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## Poccington (Feb 15, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> @Poccington what actions should politicians take?



If I knew that mate, I'd be a politician instead of a soldier! 

Like I said previously, I know it's a complicated issue but something needs to be done. Why does a 19 year old civilian need to be allowed own a rifle? It just makes zero sense to me as someone on the outside looking in.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 15, 2018)

The only verbal vomit that comes out of any politicians mouth on this topic is more gun control. We have seen in states and cities with some of the strictest gun laws in our nation that gun control does not work. Bad people still do bad shit and its the law abiding that suffer.



Poccington said:


> If I knew that mate, I'd be a politician instead of a soldier!
> 
> Like I said previously, I know it's a complicated issue but something needs to be done. Why does a 19 year old civilian need to be allowed own a rifle? It just makes zero sense to me as someone on the outside looking in.



I understand and I am not busting your balls brother. Just curious.


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## DC (Feb 15, 2018)

Poccington said:


> They're pretty isolated events, stretched across multiple continents and a timeline of nearly 30 years.
> 
> Just this year alone in the US, there have been 8 shootings on school campuses that have involved death or injury. No other Western country has gun attacks on innocent civilians on the scale or regularity that the US has.



Then its an American problem to be debated and solved by Americans.


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## Devildoc (Feb 15, 2018)

Poccington said:


> They're pretty isolated events, stretched across multiple continents and a timeline of nearly 30 years.
> 
> Just this year alone in the US, there have been 8 shootings on school campuses that have involved death or injury. No other Western country has gun attacks on innocent civilians on the scale or regularity that the US has.




You ask, why should a 19 year old have a gun?  I would ask, why not?

If this were a gun issue, or availability issue, then there would been school shootings for as long as we have had both guns AND schools, but this is a modern phenomenon.  There a lot of theories, but until they isolate fixing the minds and hearts, the violence will occur with guns, knives, cars, pipes, or baseball bats.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 15, 2018)

DC said:


> Politicians take action when it serves them not us. Its on parents raising thier kids with a moral compass with consequence.



I could not agree more on both points.


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## DC (Feb 15, 2018)

This is a mental heath issue period.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 15, 2018)

DC said:


> Then its an American problem to be debated and solved by Americans.



?

@DC - before I jump to conclusions, please explain what you mean by that statement.


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## R.Caerbannog (Feb 15, 2018)

Poccington said:


> I've gotta be honest but from this side of the pond, it seems that school shootings very much are accepted by society at large, given the reactions to these events. I mean, what will actually happen as a result of this particular massacre? People will say it's a tragedy, politicians will offer "thoughts and prayers", the same politicians will then do fuck all about it, the news will eventually move on... Give it a few months, maybe a year or two for the next massacre to happen and the whole cycle will happen again.
> 
> The complete inaction of politicians following events like these, would indicate it's very much accepted.


I think that the mass media does a very good job at sensationalizing events like these with the intent to monetize human suffering. By being fast and loose with their reporting, the MSM does a good job of sensationalizing isolated incidents and painting said country in a bad light.

Lets not forget these media outlets like to push for certain social agendas in the name of 'preventing another tragedy' by playing to the emotions of an audience. MSM companies play on the emotions of an audience by introducing 'red herring fallacies' into their news pieces and subsequent reporting in order to stretch out the monetization of a tragedy even further.

TLDR: The media lies, things are actually pretty great here in the US.


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## DC (Feb 15, 2018)

Conversation went to US having more instances of gun violence as compared to the rest of the world. I have listened to other opinions at naseum from expats from “gun control “ countries about how we as a society are barbaric because of our 2nd amendment. That taking them all away, giving in to leftist socialist beliefs make thier solution better. I believe that we, as Americans, must solve this as a nation. I believe its mental heath and culturally driven. That is my point.


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## J.S. (Feb 15, 2018)

Sebastian Junger makes some really thought-compelling arguments about suicide and mental health that can, in my opinion, be expanded to the issue of school shootings. 

His argument is that the common bonds in America are breaking down because of how fast our society is changing. We no longer have to struggle and scrape in order to survive, so the bonds that tie us to others are disappearing. In Junger's book _Tribe,_ he includes an anecdote from a Serbian woman who lived through the bombardment of Belgrade in the 90s. The woman confesses that she misses the bombing because everyone was so much closer to one another. She even says she would rather live in Belgrade then than in Belgrade now! They all had a common goal of survival and so reverted to the base level of community that we are evolutionarily programmed for.

That same issue of a lack of community can be seen in American gun violence and suicide. Suicide rates dropped immensely following Pearl Harbor because citizens found common purpose and felt needed. Modern society makes it incredibly easy for people to feel unnecessary. That same feeling of uselessness may drive people to commit such terrible crimes against members of their own community.

I'm not proposing any solutions here and I'm not sure I can find any, but I personally agree with Junger's perspective on the issue.


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## 256 (Feb 15, 2018)

Yeah, all correct. But you can’t make parents parent their kids. You can find and identify behavior all day long, what will we do about it? The kid in FL was identified. The something we have to do has to be cost effective, school is a nonprofit organization. I’m all for taking some professional shooters and putting them in my kids school, that would be awesome. Too bad the 20 year teacher is making 95,000 a year and makes hiring that professional impossible. Don’t forget, most school districts have multiple buildings to protect so now you have to hire 5 of those expensive professionals. Or we can hire the “armed” Brinks truck driver. You know, the the fat ass with the untucked short sleeved  collared shirt and his no retention .44 revolver dangling all over the place in his granpapie’s leather holster. Don’t forget about the mustard stains on that shirt.

Use the teachers that are in place. In Ohio there are volunteer Range Officers that certify teachers to carry. Listen, you guys are all right and there is certainly risk and liability when arming teachers. There’s also risk in putting kids on school buses, but we mitigate those risks. We can mitigate risk and liability with solid training programs. When people show up with guns we call people with guns. Let’s have the people with guns already be there.

You’re also right, it is a mental health issue. What’s the solution tho, lock them up? I’m certain there’s something the Constitution that doesn’t allow that. So as much as it is a mental heath issue, I really think only identifing it as a mental health issue does nothing. It all comes back to money, we have to protect our kids the most cost effective way.



J.S. said:


> Sebastian Junger makes some really thought-compelling arguments about suicide and mental health that can, in my opinion, be expanded to the issue of school shootings.
> 
> His argument is that the common bonds in America are breaking down because of how fast our society is changing. We no longer have to struggle and scrape in order to survive, so the bonds that tie us to others are disappearing. In Junger's book _Tribe,_ he includes an anecdote from a Serbian woman who lived through the bombardment of Belgrade in the 90s. The woman confesses that she misses the bombing because everyone was so much closer to one another. She even says she would rather live in Belgrade then than in Belgrade now! They all had a common goal of survival and so reverted to the base level of community that we are evolutionarily programmed for.
> 
> ...




All that is really neat, but he’s just identifying a problem. There’s no problem solving going on.


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## DC (Feb 15, 2018)

@256
First part made me laugh.

I wouldn’t trust a teacher in my state(Ca) with a squirt gun. No worries they are anti gun and hide behind the Gun Free sign. I know other states are capable.


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## J.S. (Feb 15, 2018)

256 said:


> All that is really neat, but he’s just identifying a problem. There’s no problem solving going on.



I believe Junger proposed potential solutions in the latter portion of his book but I don’t have a copy on hand and I can’t remember it well enough to try and speak for him.


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## 256 (Feb 15, 2018)

DC said:


> @256
> First part made me laugh.
> 
> I wouldn’t trust a teacher in my state(Ca) with a squirt gun. No worries they are anti gun and hide behind the Gun Free sign. I know other states are capable.



The really cool part about having conversations like this with like minded individuals is, noone has made fun of each other’s moms..so we got that going for us..


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## SaintKP (Feb 15, 2018)

256 said:


> Post



I agree with you to a point, but all it's doing is applying a Flintstones bandage to a fractured femur, you say here



256 said:


> All that is really neat, but he’s just identifying a problem. There’s no problem solving going on.



Ok if the problem is clearly identified, why can't we work to solve the problem? I'm on board with you on having trained personal other than the local rent-a-cop. But all that's doing is applying a temporary relief to the surface of it all, when the real problem lies beneath. Sure you may be walking around with a cane and a sick looking cast, but you still have a fractured femur that's only getting worse.

As stated by other members so far, for actual sustainable and measurable change to take place there needs to be a culture change in America in regards to how we treat Mental Health. I've always been a pull yourself up and dust yourself off type, but not everyone is like that, and some handle it horribly and turn to violence like what just happened in FL.

I don't have the answers to what needs to change or how to change, I just know that it's only putting on the bandage with the usual level of discussion circulated around in politics and MSM.


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## DC (Feb 15, 2018)

J.S. said:


> I believe Junger proposed potential solutions in the latter portion of his book but I don’t have a copy on hand and I can’t remember it well enough to try and speak for him.



I envy you. I can’t finish a book for shit. Must be 20 laying around here with bookmarks halfway thru.
Sebas has seen done some shit. His insight sells. Someday I would like to have a convo with him.



SaintKP said:


> I agree with you to a point, but all it's doing is applying a Flintstones bandage to a fractured femur, you say here
> 
> 
> 
> ...



This would be a question for the mental professional.


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## 256 (Feb 15, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> I agree with you to a point, but all it's doing is applying a Flintstones bandage to a fractured femur, you say here
> 
> 
> 
> ...




Sure, I can understand that. So today I worked as the School Resource Officer. All the full time Policeman in my department do it one day a week. I called my Chief and explained a half-assed laid out a plan to get some of the teachers armed. He said he was all for it and would speak to the school board. I know what’s going to happen, denied. If anything changes I’ll update this thread, but don’t expect anything...

That is the only solution I can come up with. IDing and complaining about issues is the easy thing, solutions are hard..


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## SaintKP (Feb 15, 2018)

256 said:


> That is the only solution I can come up with. IDing and complaining about issues is the easy thing, solutions are hard..




I agree with you, if solutions were easy the world wouldn't have any problems and life would be boring. I just know that it needs to be a dual approach, we need guns on campus as well as a system in the US to effectively address and work  in mental health. One to try and prevent terrorist attacks in the name of an ideology, and the other to address the root cause of a lot of troubled people in this country. 

Thanks for what you do by the way, and who knows just maybe the plan might get passed. Stranger things have happened for sure.


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## DC (Feb 15, 2018)

Looks like shooter was on FBI list a year ago. Made comments on social media suggesting the act he carried out. Also purchased the weapon legally.


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## Florida173 (Feb 15, 2018)




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## CDG (Feb 15, 2018)

x SF med said:


> IMO...  much of what we are seeing here can be tracked back to lack of discipline, lack of moral/ethical code, lack of personal responsibility and the "I'm special" mindset.  Community has become cliques, identification has become less village and more gang (LGBQT, hispano-female, afro-activist, sis-gendered alien, etc...) thus creating frictions unknown in the past.  We, as a society do not teach coping skills, but, rather blaming skills...  victimization skills, and entitlement skills.  How does a young person learn to deal with adversity if he/she is removed from adversity by attitude - I don't have to lift myself, I'm a victim, so instead of finding a workable solution, I'll grab dad's gun and kill my classmates - that'll get me on the news, I'll be famous.
> 
> Our society has become a hide, run, blame culture; where it used to be a confront and overcome culture.  The false open liberal attitudes that actually squash the exchange of ideas and reduce strength by adversity, replacing it with weakness by victimization is eroding the moral and ethical fiber of all.
> 
> again, just MOO.



100% agree.  It's really easy to blame guns, the 2A, etc. It's difficult to actually deal with a kid who is going down a bad path.  Parents try and minimize, explain away, equivocate, etc.  

Also, the FBI needs to figure out a better system than just ignoring people until something happens.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 15, 2018)

The level of security at the super bowl should be three fold at our schools. It's sad to think that Americans value the lives of foot ball players more than the children of this nation. Gun free zones do not work.


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## DocIllinois (Feb 15, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> The level of security at the super bowl should be three fold at our schools. It's sad to think that Americans value the lives of foot ball players more than the children of this nation. Gun free zones do not work.



So when schools become hard targets, what is to stop a shooter from simply moving on to the next soft one full of kids?


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## Dame (Feb 15, 2018)

Frank S. said:


> ...A grandmother in Washington state turned in her grandson for a planned shooting. Student accused of plotting Everett school shooting could be charged today
> This case may be interesting in terms of how proactive LE can be expected to be.


This ^^ right here. The Florida shooter's mother called the cops. The FBI knew. The authorities did nothing.
Two similar cases. Two completely different endings. Why? Because someone paid attention when the family asked for help from authorities.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 15, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> The level of security at the super bowl should be three fold at our schools.


whom and how do you propose this being paid for?  Are you truly convinced that this would even deter a motivated shooter?





Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> It's sad to think that Americans value the lives of foot ball players more than the children of this nation.


Come on man, did you really type that?





Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> Gun free zones do not work.


This we agree on 100%





DocIllinois said:


> So when schools become hard targets, what is to stop a shooter from simply moving on to the next soft one full of kids?


HARD Agree


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## SpitfireV (Feb 15, 2018)

DocIllinois said:


> So when schools become hard targets, what is to stop a shooter from simply moving on to the next soft one full of kids?



I would argue that for most school shooters it is rage on a personal level, so it would directed at *the* school rather than *any* school. Then again, what's to stop them waiting out the front.


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## DocIllinois (Feb 15, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> I would argue that for most school shooters it is rage on a personal level, so it would directed at *the* school rather than *any* school. Then again, what's to stop them waiting out the front.



Or taking up an elevated position at a distance and raining down death, in the style of the Vegas shooting?

Or going to a house party where lots of people from their former school are?  

Even the rage-infested can work through options to get their terrible job done with premeditation.


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## ShadowSpear (Feb 15, 2018)

If someone wants to kill someone or a group of people they are going to do it.  People can blame American gun laws all they want, but at the end of the day it’s just as easy to mow down crowds of people with a vehicle or fly a plane into a building. Maybe focus the blame on the person?


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## DC (Feb 15, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> I would argue that for most school shooters it is rage on a personal level, so it would directed at *the* school rather than *any* school. Then again, what's to stop them waiting out the front.



More like a rage created by some form of mental illness that has yet to be pre identified to prevent mayhem. What ever triggers this when discovered and treated will stop some but probably not all of these types of crimes.


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## Kraut783 (Feb 15, 2018)

ShadowSpear said:


> . Maybe focus the blame on the person?



Whoa....that's just crazy talk.


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## Muppet (Feb 15, 2018)

I don't know what the answer is. Arming teachers? Not sure. Moonlighting cops, hiring veterans with combat experience? Sure. All I know is that I have been to multiple schools in the last few years, some for teaching EMT students in an emergency services program, most for recitals for Maria's nieces. Each and every time, I have gone to that school, with my concealed carry, extra mag and a T.Q. in my person. Yeah, I get it. No guns in schools. Any of these cases, if there was one person that had the capability to stop a shooter, it would end differently.

I have been involved, heavily, with active killer drills, both on the civ. paramedic level, then the first arriving L.E.O. / RAM concept that is used around here, first L.E.O. and first arriving EMS enters, establish CCP with security while LEO's end the fucker and then SWAT level, clearing entire schools. I have also been used as bag guy role, willy nilly shooting cap guns / starter pistols at kids running and screaming, drama club kids playing injured and dead. Each time we all were in any of these roles, we thought, if just one person with training and the mindset had a gun.

Maria's nieces attend a catholic elementary / middle school, just across from where I live. They drill constantly. Key phrase by a person from the office on P.A. system, "the exterminator is in the building". Kids are told to find their pre determined spots to hide, teachers lock class rooms and so on. I posted an article from a cop / runs a training program, Greg Ellfritz. He asks why P.D. does not respond to fire alarms such as the event here. Think about it. It does not take any effort from P.D. to respond, very minimal fire alarms occur in school. Getting the cops started would be a good start. I was happy to hear after I tagged a few LEO's, including our own Policemedic, that many jurisdictions do in fact mandate that their sector cars respond to the alarm but, my own experience with that is.....I am working the township, north or south station, our radios are programed for EMS channels but scan the P.D. dispatch, so we hear P.D. being given the call. Many cops simply say, "clear it out unless needed", meaning, they are not going. Just today, I stopped by my pops place to pick some stuff up for him, he lives in a school zone, noticed 5 sector cars with in 4 blocks, 2 parked in their parking lot.

M.

*- Mod Edit*....sending you a PM on this particular line, my friend -

- Rah-


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## Florida173 (Feb 15, 2018)

I think arming teachers is just reactionary. Issue here is with the federal and local LEOs that doesn't pursue the problem effectively as @Dame mentioned. This could have ended differently.


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## DA SWO (Feb 15, 2018)

The FBI dropped the ball (IMO)
The YouTube post should have been traceable.


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## DC (Feb 15, 2018)

I mentioned the FBI issue in post 58. They had him on the radar a year ago. He posted on social media he was training to be a pro school shooter....yea no shit


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## 256 (Feb 16, 2018)

Florida173 said:


> I think arming teachers is just reactionary. Issue here is with the federal and local LEOs that doesn't pursue the problem effectively as @Dame mentioned. This could have ended differently.



I know you're going to have a very difficult time criminally prosecuting people for "threats" they make on the internet, over the phone or even to one another. Those types of threats literally happen every single day on the interweb. When you have people "crying wolf" all the time it tends to fall on deaf ears (complacency follows). Two years ago I arrested a high school student (an adult) for posting on facebook that he was going to "get high on drugs and shoot up the school." We attempted to charge him with "making terroristic threat ORC 2909.23" a felony. Grand jury didn't buy it. The law itself is interesting as well because it explains that "It is not a defense to a charge of a violation of this section that the defendant did not have the intent or capability to commit the threatened specified offense or that the threat was not made to a person who was a subject of the threatened specified offense." So in short, even if the defendant doesn't have the means to carry out the threat, it's still a chargable offense. Signing paper (laws) doesn't force anyone to comply. Good guys committing violence to bad guys forces compliance. 

So we can talk about LE dropping the ball, missing the indicators and not following up but really, it's all for not. In the end, charging people and following up doesn't protect the populace. Blaming and pointing fingers doesn't stop the kid or adult that didn't show any indicators at all, either. That exact case has played out a number of times as well. So in all these cases, LE is strictly reactive. Being reactive to an event is not effective, "left of bang" should ring a bell to most of us. So we're left with addressing the issue of security and having to do so with an organization that has very little funding room and most of the funding they get is from the population (it would help if the school districts stopped buying god damn $5,000 smart boards). Interestingly enough, when you ask for more money, you're asking the population that votes most regularly (the elderly) to spend money on something that doesn't affect them at all. Back to doing more with less and being proactive vs reactive; arm the damn teachers. Look at what our NCO corps have done with 18-year-old kids over the years. Vet the teachers, train them and arm them. Arming the teachers IS reactive but I think you have to react to start the process of being proactive. Remember too, the shooting was over in 3 damn minutes. The Policemen from other jurisdictions were still typing in the address for the school on their phones before the shooting was over. Instead of Aaron Feis shielding the students with his body he could have been mag dumping his Glock at the douche. Yes, I'm beating a dead horse!


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## Florida173 (Feb 16, 2018)

@256 
Is seeking prosecution the only option here. What if intervention would have worked? I'd imagine it's cheaper.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 16, 2018)

@Ooh-Rah I can't do all your fancy pants quoting so here are my responses...

Question - Whom and how do you propose this being paid for? Are you truly convinced that this would even deter a motivated shooter?

Answer – Special Purpose Local Option Sales Tax (SPLOST), lottery funds, cut the salary of the Political class I n Washington to that of the average income of those they represent. Only pay the political class when that actually work, much like the reserves. Make the political class' benefits just like we get as reservists as their job should be treated as a part time gig. I can come up with more…

I am convinced that a sniper on the roof of that school, upon seeing the gun/gun case/perceived threat could have stopped the little cock bite before he even walked through the door. I am convinced that trained armed guards or armed teachers could have put the stupid knuckle fuck down and maybe lessened the death toll. Again, as I stated in other posts, bad people will do bad things regardless of the law.

So do I think the knowledge of armed security would have deterred a motivated wack-a-doodle with intent on doing innocent people harm, no. I’ll say this, in all my years I have never heard of a gun shop being robbed while open for business.


Question – Come on man, did you really type that?

Answer – God damn right I did! Perception is everything and that’s how I see it as I stated in my other posts. Protect the White House with “gun free zones”, protect the federal reserves with “gun free zones”. Protect any place where something valuable is housed with "gun free zones".  We can’t do that!!! There are perceived valuable things in those places and they MUST be protected by guns. Our schools… well, our children shouldn’t be exposed to guns. We should protect them from violence with signs and expect scofflaws to obey those signs.

This discussion would be better had over a few glasses of burbon so I'll stop here...


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 16, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> This discussion would be better had over a few glasses of burbon so I'll stop here...


That's your choice, but I will respond.

First and foremost, please refrain from using the term "_douche nozzles_" when referring to members of our government.  Those types of terms distract from your argument and are something we work to keep out of serious forum discussion.



Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> I am convinced that a sniper on the roof of that school, upon seeing the gun/gun case/perceived threat could have stopped the little cock bite before he even walked through the door.


I disagree with your assertion that "snipers on the roof" would prevent anything.  And carried forward, would have an asset out of the fight happening inside.

You read thru my post too quickly.  I actually agree with you about "gun free zones" being ineffective.  

Where I said: "_Come on man, did you really type that?" _was in response to your saying:
_"It's sad to think that Americans value the lives of foot ball players more than the children of this nation."_


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## Devildoc (Feb 16, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> That's your choice, but I will respond.
> 
> First and foremost, please refrain from using the term "_douche nozzles_" when referring to members of our government.  Those types of terms distract from your argument and are something we work to keep out of serious forum discussion.
> 
> ...



Absolutely, we must refrain from calling them "_douche nozzles_."  I prefer "ass monkeys" or "anthropoid troglodytic monkey humpers."

Back to topic:

Regarding @Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 quote regarding perception of valuing the lives of football players more than children....although I would not have used those words, I see his point:  how much money was spent on placing a quasi-military presence at the Super Bowl?  And how many contracted municipal PD officers work a regular game?  Yet with regard to schools, everyone kinds wrings their hands and furrows their brows and say "gun-free zone..." and leave it at that.


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## 256 (Feb 16, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Where I said: "_Come on man, did you really type that?" _was in response to your saying:
> _"It's sad to think that Americans value the lives of foot ball players more than the children of this nation."_



Of course, American's don't value football players lives above kid's lives, but that's how it's perceived. Especially if someone actually sees it that way, right? We are all military people, how does the military protect its assets? Guns! Big guns, small guns, guns on tanks, guns on helicopters, guns on ships, I'd bet some guns are fixed with their own guns (m4/203 combo)! If we can understand and agree that guns protect the masses at the Superbowl and our forward deployed assets, why can't they be relied on to protect our kids? I've taught 18-year-old kids how to shoot a 120mm projectile accurately to 7200 meters (I'm not bragging, it's not that difficult). Can I not teach a 55-year-old teacher to protect his students with a gun?


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 16, 2018)

@Ooh-Rah I read your post very carefully.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 16, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Absolutely, we must refrain from calling them "_douche nozzles_." I prefer "ass monkeys" or "anthropoid troglodytic monkey humpers."



@Devildoc 

You’ve have been an active part of this forum since 2015 and know damn well that referring to members of public office with disparaging names are a no-go.  

Your response to my correcting a member who does not post often is out-of-line.


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## Devildoc (Feb 16, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @Devildoc
> 
> You’ve have been an active part of this forum since 2015 and know damn well that referring to members of public office with disparaging names are a no-go.
> 
> Your response to my correcting a member who does not post often is out-of-line.



To the first, I was being facetious.  If you look at my history I do not engage in that behavior.

To the second, you made your point.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 16, 2018)

Here we go...

South Carolina HS student who allegedly posted 'Florida Round 2,' tells cops it was a joke


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## JSR684 (Feb 16, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> Here we go...
> 
> South Carolina HS student who allegedly posted 'Florida Round 2,' tells cops it was a joke



That right there shows what could have happened IF the FBI did it's job back when the Florida shooter was reported.


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## x SF med (Feb 16, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> @Ooh-Rah I can't do all your fancy pants quoting so here are my responses...



I'd watch the tone, consider this an informal warning ...


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## DC (Feb 16, 2018)

This trend of gunning down your school mates because they laughed at your hair one day is disturbing. I am beginning to believe there are adults who suck at parenting that are rearing these kids and feeding this behavior. Washington (aka really northern Ca) just busted up a plot as well. No amount of politics is going to stop this. It’s gun against gun now.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 16, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> @Devildoc
> 
> You’ve have been an active part of this forum since 2015 and know damn well that referring to members of public office with disparaging names are a no-go.
> 
> Your response to my correcting a member who does not post often is out-of-line.


Been on here since 2008, and this is new to me... Members on here have been bashing government officials nonstop every since I joined this forum. So much so, that many of us, to include myself got pretty burned out on the political back and forth bullshit.

Now all the sudden there is some unwritten rule against calling them douce nozzles or ass monkey's?

Not trying to hijack the thread here, but what gives? When the rule change? 

Also getting back to the subject at hand...

Arming teachers? Sure if they want to be and take the proper training to do so.

Armed guards or police (combat vets? WTF?)? Sure if it's in the budget.

More intensive student screening for social media threats? Alright sure, sounds great.

But what about taking these nuttbags and stuffing them into special schools, and getting them away from normal kids? What about kids with social and psychological health problems being segregated from our kids, so shit like this is actually avoidable?


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## jackmick (Feb 16, 2018)

I go to a large inner-city high school in a district of ~18,000 students. The district has a police department that works alongside the local PD. 3 officers are currently assigned to my school. None of them are in shape and they only get issued Glocks and pepper spray. They don't keep rifles on site (main hallway on all floors is a city block+ long) and they are just now contemplating getting tasers. Watching them try to break up fights or other confrontations is pretty discouraging. I know of several students that have been moved to alternative schools for making threats, but that doesn't really solve the root of the problem. Our security has gotten better this year, somewhat closing the campus, but it is still incredibly easy to get inside unnoticed, especially for students that come here everyday. The Parkland school only had 1 officer on campus and he wasn't able to confront the shooter before responding officers from what I have read. 
The problem is my district, and I am sure hundreds of others, aren't taking these threats seriously enough.


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## Devildoc (Feb 16, 2018)

@jackmick tripped something in my mind....my sister and her family lived in The Woodlands, Texas, a burb of Houston.  The local school district Conroe ISD have their own police, um, force?  Detachment?  Department?  Well, they have their own cops.

Home - Conroe ISD Police

I never saw this before or since, and none in North Carolina.


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## CDG (Feb 16, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Been on here since 2008, and this is new to me... Members on here have been bashing government officials nonstop every since I joined this forum. So much so, that many of us, to include myself got pretty burned out on the political back and forth bullshit.
> 
> Now all the sudden there is some unwritten rule against calling them douce nozzles or ass monkey's?
> 
> Not trying to hijack the thread here, but what gives? When the rule change?



The rule changed after we had to close the first Trump Presidency thread.  We decided to just put a full stop to the name-calling. So it's not an unwritten rule.  Bash all you want, but you will refrain from name calling when doing so.


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## 757 (Feb 16, 2018)

256 said:


> Of course, American's don't value football players lives above kid's lives, but that's how it's perceived. Especially if someone actually sees it that way, right? We are all military people, how does the military protect its assets? Guns! Big guns, small guns, guns on tanks, guns on helicopters, guns on ships, I'd bet some guns are fixed with their own guns (m4/203 combo)! If we can understand and agree that guns protect the masses at the Superbowl and our forward deployed assets, why can't they be relied on to protect our kids? I've taught 18-year-old kids how to shoot a 120mm projectile accurately to 7200 meters (I'm not bragging, it's not that difficult). Can I not teach a 55-year-old teacher to protect his students with a gun?



Making a location a "gun-free zone" should require that said location has armed personnel present to enforce, lethally if necessary, said zone. 

That said, my wife is a teacher. While I have no doubt that you are capable of making my wife, or anyone for that matter, an expert marksman, that may not address a few key issues. 1) shooting is a perishable skill. Thus, teachers should visit the range X amount of times to remain proficient at their. most likely, newly acquired craft. This requires time and money, which leads me to point 2) most teachers my wife works with have multiple jobs and are heavily time constrained as is.

Possible solution: Require schools to carry 2-4 staff, depending on the size of the school, who are armed and trained to handle these situations. Corrections officers jump out as some obvious candidates, give them a pay raise to compensate for range time/ammo. I would also offer it to any teacher who would like to pick up the responsibility and compensate them accordingly as well.

Thoughts?


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## CDG (Feb 16, 2018)

Saw a video yesterday where the mother of one of the victims was screaming about how President Trump needed to do something about this.  Number one, I don't recall Sandy Hook being laid at the feet of President Obama, but the cool thing now is to blame almost everything on President Trump.

Secondly, this is not a federal issue.  We have an overly invasive and bloated federal government as it is.  This is a state issue, and should be handled accordingly.  States need to come up with their own plans on how they are going to address the possibility of an active shooter.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 16, 2018)

CDG said:


> The rule changed after we had to close the first Trump Presidency thread.  We decided to just put a full stop to the name-calling. So it's not an unwritten rule.  Bash all you want, but you will refrain from name calling when doing so.



Guess I missed the ending of that thread, and the announcement of the "no name calling" rule. I actually went back and checked the site rules, it's not listed... but gotcha, no calling public officials names.


----------



## jackmick (Feb 16, 2018)

Accidentally posted that last message early. 

Our school has implemented stronger security after several incidents, but those "improvements" still won't stop this level of violence. Gangs exist here and we have lost several students over the past few years to gang violence. I trust none of my teachers with a firearm, and the police try but I'm not very confident in their ability to stop incidents like this. Some of the elementary schools here have bullet resistant coatings on the windows.

@Devildoc Our district has ~25 officers I think. They're mostly at the high schools and doing truancy interventions from what I have seen. The local PD helps staff the middle schools with officers. Another local district completely depends on the SD for security at their schools. I'm not sure how prevalent district police departments are, but I imagine it's a funding challenge for many. Ours has existed for at least a decade, but they're under equipped and it doesn't look like they're able to employ the cream of the crop. Hopefully we/they never have to experience a wake up call this violent.


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## CDG (Feb 16, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Guess I missed the ending of that thread, and the announcement of the "no name calling" rule. I actually went back and checked the site rules, it's not listed... but gotcha, no calling public officials names.


 No worries.  Thanks for bringing it to our attention that the site rules do not reflect that.  I will ping an Admin about getting that changed.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 16, 2018)

x SF med said:


> I'd watch the tone, consider this an informal warning ...



It was said in complete jest, there was no "tone" and it was a jab at my inability to utilize the quote fearure in such a fasion.


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## Fl_Ag (Feb 16, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> @jackmick The local school district Conroe ISD have their own police, um, force?  Detachment?  Department?  Well, they have their own cops.



I like this - a lot. I was just in Conroe for a wedding last month and we stayed with a friend who's a local PD officer. Although I wish I had known about the ISD Police beforehand to ask about it, my understanding is that the Houston suburbs are in a state of expansion and economic "boom." I'm assuming this is what makes funding the Conroe ISD Police feasible and although I like the idea, I think a lot of the discussion on here has already addressed issues with funding, whether it's arming teachers, hiring private security, etc. 

In high school, I remember it being real easy to get in/out without the rent-a-cop noticing or caring. The last time I visited, I think last February or March, my buddy who is now a teacher and coach there had to jump through hoops to get me through the gate on short notice. In retrospect, I really appreciate that they took security seriously and I think doing so definitely adds a respectable first-layer of security. 

Not to detract from the discussion revolving around mental health, culture, and access to weapons in the first place, but I think securing access to schools (i.e., well-trained security that gives a damn and checks for parent/student/faculty/staff ID before admitting access) is a feasible and cost-effective step in the right direction. As someone else mentioned, being reactive now will move us towards being proactive later, but all I can really do is sit here and hope our politicians take action instead of letting this fade away like every other tragedy.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 16, 2018)

Does this look like an air soft toy to anyone else? The tip of the barrel looks red.


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## DocIllinois (Feb 16, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> Does this look like an air soft toy to anyone else? The tip of the barrel looks red.
> View attachment 21522



It could be part of an empty chamber indicator.  Who knows?  Its up to interrogators and psychologists to dig into this kid for the how's and why's now.

This photo matters much more at this point, IMHO:


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## x SF med (Feb 16, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> It was said in complete jest, there was no "tone" and it was a jab at my inability to utilize the quote fearure in such a fasion.



Then use smileys/emoticons/emojis... whateverthehell they're called now.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 16, 2018)

x SF med said:


> Then use smileys/emoticons/emojis... whateverthehell they're called now.



Will do


----------



## x SF med (Feb 16, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> Will do



more better, you're trainable.

Back on topic.


----------



## 256 (Feb 16, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> Will do





x SF med said:


> more better, you're trainable.
> 
> Back on topic.



Well done


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 16, 2018)

This seems interesting. No mention of firearms training.


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## DC (Feb 16, 2018)

After some study of timeline of these events it seems to me to have originated on the obama watch and the residual is flowing over to the current watch. I could be wrong but the previous agenda of extreme left thinking is in my mindset the most obvious denominator. Then the twisted mind of perception causes the acts to follow.



Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> This seems interesting. No mention of firearms training.



Good. It’s a start. More to follow. Doing nothing is worse. Firearms in the hands of teachers isn’t the answer. To carry you have to train. Perishable skill sets need honing. Get pros who do train to DA the shooter. Active shooter training gets the innocent out of the way.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 16, 2018)

DC said:


> After some study of timeline of these events it seems to me to have originated on the obama watch and the residual is flowing over to the current watch.



Are you suggesting that Obama’s administration was the catalyst for school shootings?


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 16, 2018)

DC said:


> Good. It’s a start. More to follow. Doing nothing is worse. Firearms in the hands of teachers isn’t the answer. To carry you have to train. Perishable skill sets need honing. Get pros who do train to DA the shooter. Active shooter training gets the innocent out of the way.



I agree that it's a start and that's a good thing. I still think, at the very least, the teachers should be trained in the use of a pistol. Then, if by some chance the pro can't down the shooter and the shooter is able to get into a room where the teachers and students are hunkered down the teacher has a fighting chance.


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## DC (Feb 16, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Are you suggesting that Obama’s administration was the catalyst for school shootings?


🙀Of course not.
I posted leftist mindset.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 16, 2018)

DC said:


> 🙀Of course not.
> I posted leftist mindset.



Thanks for that. I had to keep back tracking and misssd you point at first!


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 16, 2018)

Cleveland Elementary School shooting (San Diego) - Wikipedia

It's been going on for years, as I stated before. This is 1979, the only difference is we see them more often. However, our population has increased by over 100 million people since 1979... think about that.

US Population by Year

Now let look at mental health, what has changed?

By the mid-1960s in the U.S., many severely mentally ill people had been moved from psychiatric institutions to local mental health homes or similar facilities. The number of institutionalized mentally ill patients fell from its peak of 560,000 in the 1950s to 130,000 by 1980.(9) By 2000, the number of state psychiatric hospital beds per 100,000 people was 22, down from 339 in 1955.(10) In place of institutionalized care, community-based mental health care was developed to include a range of treatment facilities, from community mental health centers and smaller supervised residential homes to community-based psychiatric teams.(11)

A Brief History of Mental Illness and the U.S. Mental Health Care System

It doesn't take rocket doctor thinking to figure out what the problem is, and why it's happening more often.

Just sayin, you know like instead of just random thoughts and opinions, do a little research on the subject. Maybe open the viewing lense a bit more...Crazy people have always done crazy shit, guns have been available since before this countries inception. So what changed? Why are more crazy people doing more crazy shit, at a more common pace?


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## ShadowSpear (Feb 16, 2018)

Alright, there seems to be some confusion as to the rules on the site by members and staff regarding name calling of public figures.  Honestly, I could care less what you say, as long as your comments violate the site rules.  Hate on Trump or Hillary all you want and you won’t be dinged for it. I have no intention of including this as a rule, because I hate excessive rules and I love free speech. This site isn’t run by the military or the USG. 

With that said, think before you post. We try to maintain a professional environment and some comments can easily be taken out of context.  I’m also not trying to run a prison state where mods hang on every word you post.  Have fun. 

The caveat: Military members might want to exercise caution with any disparaging comments, since we can’t protect you from your chain of command. What you post on this site is on you. 

There. All cleared up.


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## CDG (Feb 16, 2018)

My mistake for not clearly understanding the rules, and adding to the confusion.


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## Ooh-Rah (Feb 16, 2018)

CDG said:


> My mistake for not clearly understanding the rules, and adding to the confusion.



Same.

Jesus, Joseph and Mary it appears that the FBI may have really dicked-the-dog on this one. 

FBI knew Nikolas Cruz was stockpiling weapons in Florida | Daily Mail Online

Florida governor Rick Scott is calling for Christopher Wray to step down from the top spot at the FBI after the agency admitted to ignoring information it had received about Nikolas Cruz from a source close to the the shooter.


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## DC (Feb 16, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Jesus, Joseph and Mary it appears that the FBI may have really dicked-the-dog on this one.
> 
> FBI knew Nikolas Cruz was stockpiling weapons in Florida | Daily Mail Online
> 
> Florida governor Rick Scott is calling for Christopher Wray to step down from the top spot at the FBI after the agency admitted to ignoring information it had received about Nikolas Cruz from a source close to the the shooter.



Gives credence to the FBI has run amok accusations.

Press conference right meow....FBI admitted information about shooter never made it to the Miami FBI field office.


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## Kraut783 (Feb 16, 2018)

Any information the FBI received should have been routed to the local LEO who have jurisdiction....this wasn't at DT or CT thing.

Active shootings are not the jurisdiction of the FBI, they can assist state and local law enforcement when they are asked by those agencies. If they received any tips on something like this, it should be documented and passed to the appropriate department....which in this case, did not happen.

"The Investigative Assistance for Violent Crimes Act of 2012, signed into law by the president in January 2013, permits the U.S. attorney general—at the request of appropriate state or local law enforcement personnel—to provide federal assistance during active shooter incidents and mass killings (defined by the law as three or more people) in public places. The attorney general delegated this responsibility to the FBI."


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## Chopstick (Feb 16, 2018)

ShadowSpear said:


> If someone wants to kill someone or a group of people they are going to do it.  People can blame American gun laws all they want, but at the end of the day it’s just as easy to mow down crowds of people with a vehicle or fly a plane into a building. Maybe focus the blame on the person?


^^^^THIS!
Recently,  near where I live there was a sentencing (finally) for Alex Hribal.  He stabbed 21 people at his high school with kitchen knives.  If a person is mentally deranged and is bent on violence he/she will find a way to act out.   Alex Hribal sentenced to 23 1/2 to 60 years in Franklin Regional stabbings




> Minutes before he was to be sentenced for the 2014 knife attack at Franklin Regional High School, Alex Hribal broke off his statement to the court and crumpled up his prepared remarks.
> Holding the ball of paper tightly between his hands, the 20-year-old looked out at the packed courtroom Monday afternoon and spoke — as victims and their families listened from the gallery for any reason as to why he slashed or stabbed 20 students and a security guard in a school hallway that April.
> "I would also like to say that bullying is such a problem these days,” Hribal said. “Treating each other the way people would like to be treated is the solution.”
> He paused.
> ...


----------



## DocIllinois (Feb 16, 2018)

I'm wondering where members who are equating mass shootings with mental illness are getting their information.  

Less than 1% of gun related homicides are mass shootings by people with serious mental illness.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 16, 2018)

DocIllinois said:


> I'm wondering where members who are equating mass shootings with mental illness are getting their information.
> 
> Less than 1% of gun related homicides are mass shootings by people with serious mental illness.



Because mentally healthy people don't go into schools and randomly kill innocent unarmed kid's? 

The reports you are looking at, or more so the rebutal news your reading, is only taking into account licensed diagnoses. If you are looking at legal defense to prosecution, the bar is very high to be found mentally incompetent vs suffering from a mental illness. 

But then again, with modern psychology,  anyone and everyone could be diagnosed with some sort of mental illness... so maybe it's a moot point.

The reality is you have to.be off your damn rocker to want to go randomly murder people in mass...


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## DocIllinois (Feb 16, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Because mentally healthy people don't go into schools and randomly kill innocent unarmed kid's?
> 
> The reports you are looking at, or more so the rebutal news your reading, is only taking into account licensed diagnoses. If you are looking at legal defense to prosecution, the bar is very high to be found mentally incompetent vs suffering from a mental illness.
> 
> ...



I admit that the production of this sort of reply was my fault for not including evidence.

I am interested in what supports your assertions, unless you are a mental health care professional.

Mass Shootings and Mental Illness


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 16, 2018)

DocIllinois said:


> I admit that the production of this sort of reply was my fault for not including evidence.
> 
> I am interested in what supports your assertions, unless you are a mental health care professional.
> 
> Mass Shootings and Mental Illness



Just heading out to have a few beers, but I'll read it and get back to you tomorrow.


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## RackMaster (Feb 16, 2018)

I just read this and this teacher has the problem by the proverbial balls. 

Florida Teacher of the Year's gun violence post goes viral after school shooting


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## DC (Feb 16, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> I just read this and this teacher has the problem by the proverbial balls.
> 
> Florida Teacher of the Year's gun violence post goes viral after school shooting



“Until we, as a country, are willing to get serious and talk about mental health issues, lack of available care for the mental health issues, lack of discipline in the home, horrendous lack of parental support when the schools are trying to control horrible behavior at school (oh no! Not MY KID. What did YOU do to cause my kid to react that way?), lack of moral values, and yes, I’ll say it – violent video games that take away all sensitivity to ANY compassion for others’ lives – as well as reality TV that makes it commonplace for people to constantly scream up in each others’ faces and not value any other person but themselves, we will have a gun problem in school,”
^^^
This


----------



## ShadowSpear (Feb 16, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> I just read this and this teacher has the problem by the proverbial balls.
> 
> Florida Teacher of the Year's gun violence post goes viral after school shooting



I was talking with a coworker the other day and we were trying to figure out what’s changed from when we were kids (when firearms were just as readily available). Our conclusion was the lack of in home discipline/beatings by parents.


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## DocIllinois (Feb 16, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> I just read this and this teacher has the problem by the proverbial balls.
> 
> Florida Teacher of the Year's gun violence post goes viral after school shooting



This person is laying distinct blame on a large number of factors in respect to a complex problem, with her only support being personal experience and the fact that her message has "gone viral."

I applaud her forthrightness but wouldn't lend weight to the commentary, IMO.


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## AWP (Feb 16, 2018)

ShadowSpear said:


> I was talking with a coworker the other day and we were trying to figure out what’s changed from when we were kids (when firearms were just as readily available). Our conclusion was the lack of in home discipline/beatings by parents.



In the late 80's/ early 90's we openly displayed (gun racks in trucks) rifles and shotguns in our high school parking lot. No one even threatened another with a gun, bat, or even a knife. Yeah, society's changed. We created this environment.


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## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 17, 2018)

Poccington said:


> They're pretty isolated events, stretched across multiple continents and a timeline of nearly 30 years.
> 
> Just this year alone in the US, there have been 8 shootings on school campuses that have involved death or injury. No other Western country has gun attacks on innocent civilians on the scale or regularity that the US has.



Sorry I didn't catch this before. You stated that "no other western country has gun attacks". The gun didn't attack anyone. The human behind the trigger did the attack. The media always calls it gun violence. When a Muslim clacks off a bomb it's not called bomb violence. When a truck is rammed through a crowed it's not called truck violence. When someone is stabbed it's not called knife violence.

It's the objective of the left and the media in this country to vilify an inatimate object for their own agenda. The second ammendent gives teeth to our construction. If we lose it what keeps the political class from removing the first ammendent or any other right we as Americans a blessed to have? I have owned guns for so long I can't tell you when I got my first one. I have never, ever had the notion of harming anyone that was not a threat to me.

It's not the second ammendent that's the issue here, guns are not the issue. It's the lack of family structure, and discipline in the home. Parents are scared to put foot to ass these days. When I was in school we were paddled and my mother signed that form with much glee. I feared my teachers, I feared me parents. I feared not only the ass whooping I feared their dissapointment in me should I not live up to their standards. Kids do not fear those things today.

I'll never forget, I was about thirteen, my mother was on my ass about my room not being squared away. I stood there for about five minutes listening to her go on about my roll in the house and chores are my contribution to the home since I didn't pay any bills. When she finished and proceeded to walk out I said, under my breath, "fuck you". Well... she heard it. She turned around and at that moment I thought she was going to kill me. To my dismay she very calmly said " I'm calling your father" I wish she had killed me! They say the anticipation of death is worse than death itself and they are right. Needles to say I never, NEVER disrespected my mother again. Not even in my mind.

Our western society has de-balled parents. Taken away their right to raise their children as they see fit. Capital punishment is now frowned upon and pain is a powerful teacher. Mind you I'm not condoning child abuse. I was never abused but I had my ass handed to me and I learned from it.


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## policemedic (Feb 17, 2018)

DocIllinois said:


> I'm wondering where members who are equating mass shootings with mental illness are getting their information.
> 
> Less than 1% of gun related homicides are mass shootings by people with serious mental illness.



Disagree, and I think the post is misleading.

Assuming, arguendo, your 1% is correct it isn't really relevant, and I think Knoll and Annas missed the point.  The vast majority of murders (I don't care about suicides in this context) in this country are bad guy vs bad guy.  I suppose you can argue criminal conduct and murder require some degree of mental illness, but I don't know that there is data to support that.  However, we aren't talking about run of the mill criminal homicide.  We're discussing rapid mass murders, and that's a different animal.

If we separate out terrorist attacks like San Bernardino, mental illness is most definitely a factor.  To what degree it plays a role is something that requires further study, as is the question of what degree of culpability the medical community should bear for its prescribing practices relative to certain medications in certain populations.

A number of active shooters had been prescribed antidepressants or other psychiatric medications prior to their attacks.  I'd have to do the math but I lean toward the total number being statistically significant.  Many drugs in the antidepressant class have side effects so severe as to merit boxed warnings about such things as suicidal ideation and the like.  We are prescribing drugs whose mechanism of action we don't understand to fix problems whose etiologies are debatable (is depression a result of chemical imbalances involving GABA and/or other substances or a function of a neuroplasticity deficit, both, or neither?).  Further, we are throwing drugs like Adderal at people at rates that were unheard of years ago because the relevant diagnoses were made much more judiciously in the past (and perhaps more accurately).  It seems illogical to conclude that these actions wouldn't have cascading effects.

I'm not saying we should not attempt to medicate those with psychiatric disorders.  However, there is often an increased risk of paradoxical effects when giving psychoactive drugs to certain populations, such as young people.  

While I would agree that most mental health patients are not violent or dangerous, there are certainly some that are.  It is these people who seem to be disproportionately represented in the ranks of active shooters/killers.


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## 256 (Feb 17, 2018)

DC said:


> “Until we, as a country, are willing to get serious and talk about mental health issues, lack of available care for the mental health issues, lack of discipline in the home, horrendous lack of parental support when the schools are trying to control horrible behavior at school (oh no! Not MY KID. What did YOU do to cause my kid to react that way?), lack of moral values, and yes, I’ll say it – violent video games that take away all sensitivity to ANY compassion for others’ lives – as well as reality TV that makes it commonplace for people to constantly scream up in each others’ faces and not value any other person but themselves, we will have a gun problem in school,”
> ^^^
> This



A serious talk about mental health? There's nothing to talk about. There's a mental health issue in the US (I guess), it's been said 500 million times(I am not calling you stupid(!!!!), but doing the same thing over and over and expecting different results is stupid). If we can't come up with a solution for the mental health issue it's time to move past it, find another way to deal with it. We call Police Officers to the scene of these shootings for what reason, really? Because they have guns. To be completely honest, most cops can't shoot for shit. Look at the qualifications (below) for Ohio Police Officers to carry a gun. It's pretty weak, yet that's who we call. I know anyone of us could teach a person to pass this qual, come on now. 

http://www.activeresponsetraining.net/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Semi-Auto-Pistol-Qualification.pdf


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## DocIllinois (Feb 17, 2018)

policemedic said:


> Disagree, and I think the post is misleading.
> 
> Assuming, arguendo, your 1% is correct it isn't really relevant, and I think Knoll and Annas missed the point.  The vast majority of murders (I don't care about suicides in this context) in this country are bad guy vs bad guy.  I suppose you can argue criminal conduct and murder require some degree of mental illness, but I don't know that there is data to support that.  However, we aren't talking about run of the mill criminal homicide.  We're discussing rapid mass murders, and that's a different animal.
> 
> ...



The post being referred to could be misleading, yes, which is what produced my subsequent one.

Mental health patients are disproportionately represented among active shooters/killers -  what is out there to genuinely support this suggestion?  I ask only because I really am curious, because the degree to which mental illness plays a role has been studied.

For anyone who would like a cogent presentation of what would certainly be my future points in this discussion, I would strongly urge a reading of the following recent work written by SME leaders in the fields which apply to this subject.

Gun Violence and Mental Illness


----------



## Bypass (Feb 17, 2018)

Poccington said:


> Politicians brought forth legislation to make tide pods look less edible so people would stop eating them.
> 
> Politicians complete inaction when it comes to gun control, is unbelievable to me. Now admittedly, I don't live in the US and I understand it's a constitutional issue but fuck me...


360,000,000 Americans and one crazy mother fucker and you want to strip everyone else of their rights.

My guns are all homicidal I have to keep a close watch over them or they'll sprout legs and run down the street shooting everyone.


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## Poccington (Feb 17, 2018)

Bypass said:


> 360,000,000 Americans and one crazy mother fucker and you want to strip everyone else of their rights.



Well in fairness, it has been more than one crazy motherfucker over the years. I also never said anything about stripping everyone of their rights.

That sick cunt was able to legally buy a rifle when he still wasn't old enough to legally consume alcohol... I'm sorry but that makes zero sense to me.


----------



## DocIllinois (Feb 17, 2018)

As an added rub to this dialogue, I wouldn't be surprised if kids and their parents filed suit soon against Congress for failing to do anything meaningful in this matter while knowing that inaction will continue to place children in schools at grave risk.

There is precedent for this type of action in the suit brought by 21 youth plaintiffs against the last administration for failing to take real action to mitigate climate change, knowing that this would imperil their right to an inhabitable planet. 

The student reaction to Parkland has been very aggressive and a justified rage is now creeping in.  This includes addressing our POTUS directly, to include one student of that school openly calling him a "fucking piece of shit" for offering only prayer and condolences as a response. 

  A suit may be the best chance of escalating the gun control debate to move beyond something more than the cycle of shooting/ pointless thoughts and prayers and petitions/ lawmakers who ultimately do nothing, IMO.


----------



## DC (Feb 17, 2018)

There is a mental switch that flips in the minds of the shooters to do these mass shootings. The triggering mechanisms are the mystery. Anything written really hasn’t discovered the cause because it’s still happening. Hell the FBI can’t even pass on warning signs a year ago. I think it’s apathy on the part of politicians because there is zero money in it. 

It’s a generational issue by adults leaving thier parental responsibilities to social media and a lost cultural morality. Kids learn from the “street”. It is our fault. We need to fix it. This I believe is the switch. These papers written before Parkland are out dated. We keep listening to this mumbo jumbo and yet it still happens. We have to find a new approach.

I agree the process needs to be updated but to suggest”gun control” in the sense removing guns is the example of other socialist countries(Europe)works is in its self another form of stupidity. Sorry they have many forms of gun crimes that match thier population numbers as we do. 

It’s a form of mental illness. How it’s treated maybe we love and cherish our kids. Go to recitals and baseball games. Turn off the electronics and sit down to a family meal. Whatever we do ruck up and get busy. Stop believing guns are the cause. People really are period.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 17, 2018)

I really like this, and as we celebrate my twin boys' birthday today (15), it hits home that we have been doing it right.



DC said:


> It’s a form of mental illness. How it’s treated maybe we love and cherish our kids. Go to recitals and baseball games. Turn off the electronics and sit down to a family meal. Whatever we do ruck up and get busy. Stop believing guns are the cause. People really are period.


----------



## DocIllinois (Feb 17, 2018)

DC said:


> There is a mental switch that flips in the minds of the shooters to do these mass shootings. The triggering mechanisms are the mystery. Anything written really hasn’t discovered the cause because it’s still happening. Hell the FBI can’t even pass on warning signs a year ago. I think it’s apathy on the part of politicians because there is zero money in it.
> 
> It’s a generational issue by adults leaving thier parental responsibilities to social media and a lost cultural morality. Kids learn from the “street”. It is our fault. We need to fix it. This I believe is the switch. *These papers written before Parkland are out dated.* We keep listening to this mumbo jumbo and yet it still happens. We have to find a new approach.
> 
> ...



Assuming the opinions, and the studies supporting them, of the following SMEs in mental health, public policy, and public health published in 2016 are "outdated," this means there is a more substantial amount of similar evidence since released which supports conclusions to the contrary.   The majority of their professional bios are searchable for all to see.

Renee Binder, M.D.
Emma C. McGinty, Ph.D., M.S.
Daniel W. Webster, Sc.D., M.P.H.
Matthew Miller, M.D., M.P.H., Sc.D.
Catherine Barber, M.P.A.
Deborah Azrael, Ph.D.
Carl C. Bell, M.D., D.L.F.A.P.A.
James L. Knoll, IV, M.D.
George D. Annas, M.D., M.P.H.
Peter Ash, M.D.
Marilyn Price, M.D., C.M.
Patricia R. Recupero, J.D., M.D.
Donna M. Norris, M.D.
Eric Y. Drogin, J.D., Ph.D.
Carol Spaderna, LL.B. (Hons.)
Robert L. Trestman, Ph.D., M.D.
Fred R. Volkmar, M.D.
Daniel C. Murrie, Ph.D
Debra A. Pinals, M.D.
Josh Horwitz, J.D.
Anna Grilley, M.S.P.H.
Kelly Ward, J.D.
Donna Vanderpool, M.B.A., J.D.
Shannon Frattaroli, Ph.D., M.P.H.
Shani A.L. Buggs, M.P.H



I am making yet another appeal for this material.


----------



## DC (Feb 17, 2018)

They are all wrong in the sense what they perceive is scientific. This is a cultural issue. Just as the heading of this thread suggests. Cultural. Believe the big brains Doc. They are like the FBI and gov to me....useless. In God we trust,pledge of allegiance,respect for the flag,respect for others,etc. teach it on a broad scale and then write your paper...



DocIllinois said:


> As an added rub to this dialogue, I wouldn't be surprised if kids and their parents filed suit soon against Congress for failing to do anything meaningful in this matter while knowing that inaction will continue to place children in schools at grave risk.
> 
> There is precedent for this type of action in the suit brought by 21 youth plaintiffs against the last administration for failing to take real action to mitigate climate change, knowing that this would imperil their right to an inhabitable planet.
> 
> ...



Proves my point. Parents taught these kids that this response is ok. Like it’s someone else’s fault. Like the politicians are at fault or guns or LE...seriously. Blame game always works.


----------



## DocIllinois (Feb 17, 2018)

DC said:


> They are all wrong in the sense what they perceive is scientific. This is a cultural issue. Just as the heading of this thread suggests. Cultural. Believe the big brains Doc. They are like the FBI and gov to me....useless. In God we trust,pledge of allegiance,respect for the flag,respect for others,etc. teach it on a broad scale and then write your paper...



I understand your point, brother, and agree that child raising needs to tighten up. 

Our current social climate is one of the areas of study, legal, and policy work for many of these folks, though, and they have reached the conclusion that it is a mistaken belief that people with mental illness are responsible for most of the gun violence in the U.S., to include mass/ school shootings. 

They also advocate evidence-based interventions focusing on assessments and indicators of dangerousness, with or without indications of mental illness.  I think that's a good place to start, IMHO.


----------



## 256 (Feb 17, 2018)

The thing about these kids that throw out these threats, it happens literally every day. Not even close to one percent of the threats pan out into action. So what threats do we take seriously and which ones do we not look into? I’ll bet my house that kid spoke to a mental health professional more than once through the school. So it comes back to which threats do we take seriously? Celebraties, movie stars, sports players all get death threats, I bet 99% of them aren’t investigated. It’s impossible to look into each one of these. 

Again, pointing fingers at LE and FBI isn’t going to help the next 17 kids. Identifying the the issue only helps if there's a solution. There's no solution to the mental health problem.


----------



## DC (Feb 17, 2018)

DocIllinois said:


> I understand your point, brother, and agree that child raising needs to tighten up.
> 
> Our current social climate is one of the areas of study, legal, and policy work for many of these folks, though, and they have reached the conclusion that it is a mistaken belief that people with mental illness are responsible for most of the gun violence in the U.S., to include mass/ school shootings.
> 
> They also advocate evidence-based interventions focusing on assessments and indicators of dangerousness, with or without indications of mental illness.  I think that's a good place to start, IMHO.



I hear ya bro. I think lumping in mass shootings with gun violence as a whole is the mistake. It’s should be it’s own category and studied accordingly.🤙🏽



256 said:


> The thing about these kids that throw out these threats, it happens literally every day. Not even close to one percent of the threats pan out into action. So what threats do we take seriously and which ones do we not look into? I’ll bet my house that kid spoke to a mental health professional more than once through the school. So it comes back to which threats do we take seriously? Celebraties, movie stars, sports players all get death threats, I bet 99% of them aren’t investigated. It’s impossible to look into each one of these.
> 
> Again, pointing fingers at LE and FBI isn’t going to help the next 17 kids. Identifying the the issue only helps if there's a solution. There's no solution to the mental health problem.



I don’t point fingers at local LE. Just the Feeble Band of Idiots that run the FBI. 
There is a solution. Teach your children well. The worse I ever saw in school was a fight after. Chirping then fist ta cuffs. If I EVER got in trouble(if caught😉) I got my ass BEAT. But my youth is a story in its self...🗿


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 17, 2018)

I am curious as to how many of those (mass) shooters in the past were on psych meds or who had something in their med records re: psych eval.

@Poccington , yes, 18 can get you a rifle, and get you into the military to use one against someone else legally.  But you can't buy a beer, you can't rent a car, and you can't get a hotel room.  It is very screwed up.


----------



## Lefty375 (Feb 17, 2018)

DC said:


> They are all wrong in the sense what they perceive is scientific. This is a cultural issue. Just as the heading of this thread suggests. Cultural. Believe the big brains Doc. They are like the FBI and gov to me....useless. In God we trust,pledge of allegiance,respect for the flag,respect for others,etc. teach it on a broad scale and then write your paper...



You seem to be saying your beliefs are the correct normative cultural practices, which I see very little evidence for (besides the one in every culture like "respect others"), and thank god. I don't see any evidence that your force fed nationalism will stop school shootings in a nation as diverse as ours.


----------



## DC (Feb 17, 2018)

Lefty375 said:


> You seem to be saying your beliefs are the correct normative cultural practices, which I see very little evidence for (besides the one in every culture like "respect others"), and thank god. I don't see any evidence that your force fed nationalism will stop school shootings in a nation as diverse as ours.



Force fed? Laughable actually. I can express my beliefs like you can. What you do with it is up to you. I grew up in a much different time. In fact Reagan was the gov of Ca. I have seen it go from great to shit. I guess that’s experience that leads me to feel the way I do. The diverse isolationist mindset to me is another cultural issue derived from poor behavior of others and accepting it instead of challenging it. It’s a dialogue required to solve problems. This one hits home because kids and grandkids in school.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 17, 2018)

So I read the report, it's heavily misleading IMHO. They are addressing "server" dignosed mental disorders and not mental health as a whole. Not sure if that some sort of a save face attempt for the psychiatric community or what, but I would call it fluff peice. 

Antidepressants Are a Prescription for Mass Shootings |  Citizens Commission on Human Rights, CCHR


So the question I have, is if all these people are not suffering from mental health problems, why is the psychiatric community prescribing them medications such as antidepressants?

Either we mentally healthy people being doped with psycho active drug's, or we have mentally ill people being doped with psycho active drug's and allowed to run around in public. Either or, it's a fucking problem that needs to be addressed.


----------



## DocIllinois (Feb 17, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> So I read the report, it's heavily misleading IMHO. They are addressing "server" dignosed mental disorders and not mental health as a whole. Not sure if that some sort of a save face attempt for the psychiatric community or what, but I would call it fluff peice.
> 
> Antidepressants Are a Prescription for Mass Shootings |  Citizens Commission on Human Rights, CCHR
> 
> ...



Should the goal of the authors of that entry have been to mislead, they wouldn't have been contributors to the kind of work in which that chapter is found.  

Comparing the literature we have both offered, I think that our respective definitions of evidence in a scientific subject are so very different that advancement of dialogue would be scarcely possible.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Feb 17, 2018)

DocIllinois said:


> Should the goal of the authors of that entry have been to mislead, they wouldn't have been contributors to the kind of work in which that chapter is found.
> 
> Comparing the literature we have both offered, I think that our respective definitions of evidence in a scientific subject are so very different that advancement of dialogue would be scarcely possible.


LOL...okay!


----------



## policemedic (Feb 17, 2018)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> So I read the report, it's heavily misleading IMHO. They are addressing "server" dignosed mental disorders and not mental health as a whole. Not sure if that some sort of a save face attempt for the psychiatric community or what, but I would call it fluff peice.
> 
> Antidepressants Are a Prescription for Mass Shootings |  Citizens Commission on Human Rights, CCHR
> 
> ...



I know this is kind of arguing against my own position, but you know that's a Scientology group, right?


----------



## Ranger Psych (Feb 18, 2018)

policemedic said:


> I know this is kind of arguing against my own position, but you know that's a Scientology group, right?



Considering I've personally experienced antidepressant reactions on par with clinical psychopathy (and thankfully recognized and subsequently DX'ed said meds and went back to being "normal), the source may be questionable but the statements do have some credit to them.  We really don't know what we don't even know with regards to brain chemistry, hence why treatment ends up being a frigging guessing game with what might work, and then just play Battleship with pills until you find what supposedly works, damn the side effects.


----------



## policemedic (Feb 18, 2018)

Ranger Psych said:


> Considering I've personally experienced antidepressant reactions on par with clinical psychopathy (and thankfully recognized and subsequently DX'ed said meds and went back to being "normal), the source may be questionable but the statements do have some credit to them.  We really don't know what we don't even know with regards to brain chemistry, hence why treatment ends up being a frigging guessing game with what might work, and then just play Battleship with pills until you find what supposedly works, damn the side effects.



Re: Scientology, I'm just saying use caution (read: exercise extreme skepticism)  in interpreting their opinions.  The data on the active shooters they list and their medication usage is easily verifiable...but just like the Gipper said, you gotta verify it.

I completely agree with you regarding the pharmacology of antidepressants.  Take Welbutrin, for example.  The package insert clearly says the mechanism of action is not understood.  That means that while we can observe a positive clinical effect in some people i.e. no longer depressed, it also means it can be (and often is) doing other things that may be undesirable.


----------



## 256 (Feb 18, 2018)

DC said:


> I don’t point fingers at local LE. Just the Feeble Band of Idiots that run the FBI.
> There is a solution. Teach your children well. The worse I ever saw in school was a fight after. Chirping then fist ta cuffs. If I EVER got in trouble(if caught😉) I got my ass BEAT. But my youth is a story in its self...🗿



FBI has foiled a number of terror attacks, so I’m OK with what some of what the FBI is doing. Regardless of that, teaching your kids well is an individual family skill or tasking based on what you think ”well” is. The way our children are raised in America will never be a monitored issue; meaning we can't legislate how children are raised family to family, so that discussion is irrelevant.

So if family raising principals can't be dictated or enforced, why is it still part of the discussion? The issue of family raising (IMO) has changed because we can't make decisions on our own (most Americans). The first thing most Americans do is open their phones, is see what their "friends" are saying on Facebook, and make a decision based off that. It’s really crazy.

It simply goes back to the discussion of mental health issues. Neither of those two issues that play such an important roll in these shootings are fixable. Unless you have individual family monitors placed in homes that dictate how you raise your kids. How else does it happen? Mental health is the same argument. Unless you're going to lock up all the crazies, it’s an unsolvable issue.

My next course of action would be actually doing something. Besides just talking among one another about what we argue is the problem (insert Army Problem Solving Guide #6), how can we impact the issue? Using mental health as an example: how would you solve it? I just think we’re spending too much time identifying and arguing about what the problems are (mostly we’re arguing about whose opinion is correct, honestly) and we’re not taking any action to fix it. How can we as veterans and like minded individuals solve the problem? If the solution isn't arming teachers (I am working on that project for our district), taking away guns, mandatory family monitors inserted into homes, locking up the crazies, or changing medication prescribed by Doctors what can we do?


----------



## Bypass (Feb 18, 2018)

Poccington said:


> Well in fairness, it has been more than one crazy motherfucker over the years. I also never said anything about stripping everyone of their rights.
> 
> That sick cunt was able to legally buy a rifle when he still wasn't old enough to legally consume alcohol... I'm sorry but that makes zero sense to me.


The minimum age requirement to enlist in the US military and be issued an automatic weapon is 18. Should we change that as well because of one crazy?


----------



## Poccington (Feb 18, 2018)

Bypass said:


> The minimum age requirement to enlist in the US military and be issued an automatic weapon is 18. Should we change that as well because of one crazy?



The two situations are not even slightly comparable.


----------



## 256 (Feb 18, 2018)

DocIllinois said:


> So when schools become hard targets, what is to stop a shooter from simply moving on to the next soft one full of kids?


 
We can't tackle a non-existing problem, but we'd surely have to prepare for it.


----------



## Bypass (Feb 18, 2018)

Poccington said:


> The two situations are not even slightly comparable.


The psycho should have joined the military like the rest of us crazy SOBs. Instead of being a pussy and targeting unarmed children.
No offense to you guys who had a purpose other than blowing shit up.


----------



## 256 (Feb 18, 2018)

CQB said:


> On January 1st, 1901 our nation was born, it just came into existence as a nation. There was plenty of debate beforehand, but no violence. The US fought a revolution to achieve what it became and this is a fundamental difference between the two nations. The principle stance after three incidents here known as the Strathfield, Hoddle Street & Port Arthur massacres revolved around three fundamental issues: sports shooters should be licensed, those who use firearms as a tool of trade will be exempt (farmers, kangaroo shooters for example), and the general population should not have casual access to firearms.



But, as people trying to be independent of a hostel government we had to be armed to fight the revolution. Our founding fathers identified that our citizens are the most important part of the country, and should always have the right to bear arms against a new hostel government. They wrote the 2nd Amendment for that exact reason; the people are the "well regulated Militia." That phase has been argued about for a long time but, for some reason after the amendment was made, no US Governmental Office has attempted to disarm the public...


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 18, 2018)

@265 I stumbled across this guy. Don’t know his background but he discusses disarming Americans.


----------



## 256 (Feb 18, 2018)

The mental health aspect could be used as a solution of regulating access to guns, but it couldn't be done without due process. Meaning, anyone talking to a mental health professional (probably ALL of us at some point) would have to be documented, which would have to be backed by a law and reported to some form of law enforcement agency. This would be a violation of a shit ton of laws that are already in place.

But then again, for some reason our Government can add people to the no fly list without due process. Requiring those people to petition the Government to get that right back...so sure, maybe it can work...


Suspect Allegedly Confessed To Fla. School Shootings That Killed 17

"Furr also told _Morning Edition_ that the suspect had been a client at mental health facilities and had been expelled from the high school for disciplinary reasons."

That's "facilities", more than one. So the people involved checked the "mental health" box, didn't help..

***I edited this to include the mental health facilities quote.***


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Feb 18, 2018)

policemedic said:


> Re: Scientology, I'm just saying use caution (read: exercise extreme skepticism)  in interpreting their opinions.  The data on the active shooters they list and their medication usage is easily verifiable...but just like the Gipper said, you gotta verify it.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 18, 2018)

My best friend was on Abilify for years and may still be. It changed him so much I couldn't associate with him any longer. 

Side effects:
Call your doctor right away if you notice any of these side effects:

Allergic reaction: Itching or hives, swelling in your face or hands, swelling or tingling in your mouth or throat, chest tightness, trouble breathing

Anxiety, irritability, nervousness, restlessness, trouble sleeping

Compulsive behavior or intense urges you cannot control

Confusion, unusual behavior, depressed mood, thoughts of hurting yourself or others

Fever, chills, cough, sore throat, body aches

Increased hunger or thirst, change in how much or how often you urinate

Jerky muscle movements you cannot control (often in your face, tongue, or jaw)

Lightheadedness, dizziness, fainting

Seizures

Sweating, uneven heartbeat, muscle stiffness

Unusual tiredness or sleepiness

If you notice these less serious side effects, talk with your doctor:

Headache

Nausea, vomiting, drooling

Unusual weight gain

If you notice other side effects that you think are caused by this medicine, tell your doctor.

Call your doctor for medical advice about side effects. You may report side effects to FDA at 1-800-FDA-1088.


----------



## Frank S. (Feb 18, 2018)

A bit over two years ago, we had a guy  presenting a "workplace violence/active shooter" seminar at work. He made an interesting comment about Seung-Hui Cho which I unfortunately didn't have the opportunity to have him substantiate. He said he laid targets flat on the ground at the range and shot them up the way a prone victim might be shot.
I ended up doing a bit more reading, including Kenneth Westhues' paper about the Virginia Tech shooting, in which he wrote:

"A related weakness of explanation in terms of Cho's allegedly murderous character is that there is no evidence of it prior to the time of the murders. Cho had no record of violence. On account of his extreme reserve, mental-health professionals had assessed him as early as 1998, when he was 14, and as late as 2005, when he was 21. None of the experts diagnosed homicidal tendencies.

It was only after Cho committed his murders that observers discerned in him a murderous personal identity. This is like calling a substance dynamite after it explodes. If it could not be recognized as dynamite earlier, it may well have been something else, maybe a benign substance like garden fertilizer, sawdust, or ripening fruit, that detonated under an unusual combination of specific conditions."

... And I thought, how many people knew ammonium nitrate from Miracle Gro before 1995?


----------



## CQB (Feb 18, 2018)

256 said:


> But, as people trying to be independent of a hostel government we had to be armed to fight the revolution. Our founding fathers identified that our citizens are the most important part of the country, and should always have the right to bear arms against a new hostel government. They wrote the 2nd Amendment for that exact reason; the people are the "well regulated Militia." That phase has been argued about for a long time but, for some reason after the amendment was made, no US Governmental Office has attempted to disarm the public...



Yes, I’m aware of the 2nd Amendment, which is the difference between our two constitutions, as discussed. We have not been disarmed, the requirements on ownership have been tightened and in fact legal ownership has been growing here, much to the hysteria of our Greens Party.


----------



## 256 (Feb 19, 2018)

CQB said:


> Yes, I’m aware of the 2nd Amendment, which is the difference between our two constitutions, as discussed. We have not been disarmed, the requirements on ownership have been tightened and in fact legal ownership has been growing here, much to the hysteria of our Greens Party.




I hope my reply didn’t come off as rude, that certainly wasn’t the intention. It’s impressive to me that you’re so informed on our constitution. As a typical American I know nothing of other country’s constitutions. There’s also something to be said about regular armed citizens being armed to fight off their hostel Government, especially these days; modern military might. But, Syrian citizens started a pretty successful uprising, started being the key phrase. Until mother Russia started “fighting ISIS” in the region.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 23, 2018)

The resource office did nothing. News stated this morning he may face criminal charges.

Armed officer resigns after he did nothing amid Parkland shooting

MODS: Might want to move this to the thread on school shootings. My fault.

*- MOD EDIT -*
Good call, thread's moved to keep the topics on track.

- Rah -

@Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 -


----------



## Ranger Psych (Feb 23, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> The resource office did nothing. News stated this morning he may face criminal charges.
> 
> Armed officer resigns after he did nothing amid Parkland shooting
> 
> MODS: Might want to move this to the thread on school shootings. My fault.



So, umm, how can they sue? 

Warren v. District of Columbia - Wikipedia


----------



## nobodythank you (Feb 23, 2018)

Ranger Psych said:


> So, umm, how can they sue?
> 
> Warren v. District of Columbia - Wikipedia


That applies to individuals. As in the police do not have a duty to protect individuals. They still have a duty to protect the public at large. In that case, an individual sued the police saying that they had an obligation to protect her. The courts disagreed and said the police are only required to protect the public at large. A good attorney can argue here that he wasn't protecting just one person, but his job was to protect the entire school.

This coward failed in his state-mandated duty to act. His sole purpose for being there was to protect all of those children. I am willing to bet that he heard the sounds of gunfire, was close to retirement, and said fuck that shit. Likely the internal investigation will find him guilty of failure to react and cowardice. That's why he quit under investigation, which will stop you from getting hired anywhere else. I doubt there is any criminal charge that could be levied against him, but he can most certainly be sued civilly.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 23, 2018)

ke4gde said:


> This coward failed in his state-mandated duty to act. His sole purpose for being there was to protect all of those children. I am willing to bet that he heard the sounds of gunfire, was close to retirement, and said fuck that shit


So many men and women who would have given almost anything to have been there with a weapon in hand.

This will become a rallying call to the anti-gun folks as to why arming staff at the school cannot work. “If a trained law enforcement officer could not stop this ... blah...blah....blah."

If we did a forum death pool, I would add him today. Don’t be surprised if you read over the next year that he’s committed suicide.

Right or wrong, he’s just made him self a social media and news target to be blamed for some of the deaths.


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 23, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> So many men and women who would have given almost anything to have been there with a weapon in hand.
> 
> This will become a rallying call to the anti-gun folks as to why arming staff at the school cannot work. “If a trained law enforcement officer could not stop this ... blah...blah....blah."
> 
> ...



The man is a pariah, untouchable.  How he lives with himself I'll never know.  Utterly unconscionable.

I agree with your assessment on how the left will use him as an example of not training/arming school staff.


----------



## nobodythank you (Feb 23, 2018)

Police officers guard home of deputy assigned to Florida HS who ‘never went in’ during shooting: report   Well I don't wish any harm on his family, but I understand peoples frustration with him. I understand being scared shitless, but he didn't saddle up. The rallying cry would fortunately be a weak one, but it does show how even those in authority can be sheep.  

As a side note, and any current LE check me on this, but last I had active shooter training (roughly a decade ago unfortunately), protocol dictated that the first responding officer wait for the first four arriving officers whom then formed a fireteam and moved in together to engage the threat. Has that changed in the last 10 years? This was how I was taught and wonder if it is still taught at all or even still here in FL? I also wonder if he will use that has a reason for not going in for 4 minutes? Does that apply to SROs, or are they trained to moved immediately? Never went to the SRO school so I don't know. Broward SO is supposed to be a pretty good agency so I am sure their training plan is current. A former academy mate that retired from Coral Springs PD noted that over 130 officers from nearby CSPD responded to the shooting. 




Ooh-Rah said:


> So many men and women who would have given almost anything to have been there with a weapon in hand.


I don't mean for this to sound like bravado by any means, but I want to cry when I think of what he could have done had he even engaged the shooter early on. Even taking fire could have saved just a few lives by being distracted.


----------



## AWP (Feb 23, 2018)

ke4gde said:


> That's why he quit under investigation, which will stop you from getting hired anywhere else. I doubt there is any criminal charge that could be levied against him, but he can most certainly be sued civilly.



My questions for the LEO's out there: Was this his best option? Would staying with the department and any Union reps/ lawyers been the better call for him personally? What are this guy's options? I genuinely don't know, I'm not a cop.


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 23, 2018)

I saw this.  It's not funny, it doesn't make me mad.  But it does make me really sad.


----------



## SaintKP (Feb 23, 2018)

I guess I now know my limit when it comes to fucked up things making me laugh. You learn something new everyday.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 23, 2018)

They scream no guns in schools and when one was there and not used they want to kill the guy who didn’t use it.


----------



## DocIllinois (Feb 23, 2018)

POTUS has just proposed arming 20% of school teachers and coaches, which would be a little over 720,000 of them.

The fact that it was done with a serious face was mysterious, as another proposal made this month was to cut $3.6 billion from the DoE's budget.

I will admit its possible that his statement was ultimately fake news.


----------



## DC (Feb 23, 2018)

Like I suggested before. Hire inconspicuous private professionals who can interface at all levels socially but are 100% go when task at hand. Arming teachers that are mil is a secondary action. Eyes out constantly is required. Teachers involved should be a back up but better utilized securing students in classrooms. Not 5.11 wearing contractors but personal protective service types with training,EXPERIENCE and vetting.


----------



## DC (Feb 23, 2018)

ke4gde said:


> Police officers guard home of deputy assigned to Florida HS who ‘never went in’ during shooting: report   Well I don't wish any harm on his family, but I understand peoples frustration with him. I understand being scared shitless, but he didn't saddle up. The rallying cry would fortunately be a weak one, but it does show how even those in authority can be sheep.
> 
> As a side note, and any current LE check me on this, but last I had active shooter training (roughly a decade ago unfortunately), protocol dictated that the first responding officer wait for the first four arriving officers whom then formed a fireteam and moved in together to engage the threat. Has that changed in the last 10 years? This was how I was taught and wonder if it is still taught at all or even still here in FL? I also wonder if he will use that has a reason for not going in for 4 minutes? Does that apply to SROs, or are they trained to moved immediately? Never went to the SRO school so I don't know. Broward SO is supposed to be a pretty good agency so I am sure their training plan is current. A former academy mate that retired from Coral Springs PD noted that over 130 officers from nearby CSPD responded to the shooting.
> 
> ...



Typically but not always school resource officers in Ca. anyway are individuals who pass a POST academy but some reason or another are not picked up by a major PD. Sadly complacency is easily attainable for some.


----------



## DocIllinois (Feb 23, 2018)

DC said:


> Like I suggested before. Hire inconspicuous private professionals who can interface at all levels socially but are 100% go when task at hand. Arming teachers that are mil is a secondary action. Eyes out constantly is required. Teachers involved should be a back up but better utilized securing students in classrooms. Not 5.11 wearing contractors but personal protective service types with training,EXPERIENCE and vetting.



Cool.  And the school districts will pay they or the companies who supply them?  State boards or the DoE directly?  Pro bono? 

On top of buying pistols and training, and continuing training and range time, for the hundreds of thousands of teachers?


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 23, 2018)

DocIllinois said:


> Cool.  And the school districts will pay they or the companies who supply them?  State boards or the DoE directly?  Pro bono?
> 
> On top of buying pistols and training, and continuing training and range time, for the hundreds of thousands of teachers?



SPLOST, lottery funds, get rid of bull shit school programs. There are many ways to fund security.


----------



## DC (Feb 23, 2018)

DocIllinois said:


> Cool.  And the school districts will pay they or the companies who supply them?  State boards or the DoE directly?
> On top of buying pistols and training, and continuing training and range time, for the hundreds of thousands of teachers?



What’s your kids life worth? Regardless of any solution(which you haven’t suggested yet) it’s going to cost money.


----------



## DC (Feb 23, 2018)

POTUS didn’t say are 20% of teachers but arm those with previous firearms experience and vets who are teachers.


----------



## DocIllinois (Feb 23, 2018)

DC said:


> What’s your kids life worth? Regardless of any solution(which you haven’t suggested yet) it’s going to cost money.



Suggestions on this from me would hardly add to the discussion here.  My only interest is in where the money for proposed new security measures would come from.

I would think it wise to defer solutions on school security to those who are paying the bills to get it, and especially those who have real expertise in the matter.


----------



## DC (Feb 23, 2018)

Surf is crap today...55 out...coldwater


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Feb 23, 2018)

MOD HAT ON.


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 23, 2018)

To me it's largely academic.  We homeschool.  As such, we do have guns in the school, and the teachers are well-trained! ;)

But it's an important argument/discussion to have, because I am sure many of you have kids in school (public and private), so y'all got skin in the game.


----------



## DC (Feb 23, 2018)

In this state and probably many others regardless if you have skin in the game your tax money goes to school bonds. Even if you use the private school avenue. There is funding out there but if your state is democrat majority it goes for other social programs for those who do not contribute. Take back the funding direction (requires governmental overhaul) and there would be plenty of funds for important security issues.


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 23, 2018)

DC said:


> In this state and probably many others regardless if you have skin in the game your tax money goes to school bonds. Even if you use the private school avenue. There is funding out there but if your state is democrat majority it goes for other social programs for those who do not contribute. Take back the funding direction (requires governmental overhaul) and there would be plenty of funds for important security issues.



Re: taxation for public schools, you're right.  Getting much deeper into that topic deserves it's own thread.


----------



## DocIllinois (Feb 23, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> To me it's largely academic.  We homeschool.  As such, we do have guns in the school, and the teachers are well-trained! ;)
> 
> But it's an important argument/discussion to have, because I am sure many of you have kids in school (public and private), so y'all got skin in the game.



Speaking of which, my skin in the game also involves my kids at summer camps.  And after school programs in private facilities.  And gathering in groups on trips to amusement parks.  And at children's magic shows...

We can turn schools into mini FOBs but they're only one of many locations where lots of kids congregate.  

Its a sticky wicket, for sure.


----------



## DC (Feb 23, 2018)

Or make all schools private, remove from public tax programs and they then provide security measures outlined by a federal standard. I have my youngest in private school. I still pay public school taxes.


----------



## Chopstick (Feb 23, 2018)

From bad to worse regarding the Broward County Sheriffs.  I am no expert of course but why would they wait until the Coral Springs officers arrived? Would they have been ordered to wait?  In which case ordered by whom?

Sources: Coral Springs police upset at some Broward deputies for not entering school - CNNPolitics



> When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.
> With direction from the Broward deputies who were outside, Coral Springs police soon entered the building where the shooter was. New Broward County Sheriff's deputies arrived on the scene, and two of those deputies and an officer from Sunrise, Florida, joined the Coral Springs police as they went into the building.
> Some Coral Springs police were stunned and upset that the four original Broward County Sheriff's deputies who were first on the scene did not appear to join them as they entered the school, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. It's unclear whether the shooter was still in the building when they arrived.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 23, 2018)

Chopstick said:


> From bad to worse regarding the Broward County Sheriffs.  I am no expert of course but why would they wait until the Coral Springs officers arrived? Would they have been ordered to wait?  In which case ordered by whom?
> 
> Sources: Coral Springs police upset at some Broward deputies for not entering school - CNNPolitics




The School Resourse Officer was the biggest coward of all. He was the only armed person on the scene and the shooter's rampage went on for 8 minutes while this yellow bastard hid.


----------



## DC (Feb 23, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> The School Resourse Officer was the biggest coward of all. He was the only armed person on the scene and the shooter's rampage went on for 8 minutes while this yellow bastard hid.



Worse yet they let him resign/retire. Pension should go to those who died. Sheriff will swing for the incompetent behavior of the few. Sad times🤬


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 23, 2018)

Fuuuuck me.

This is turning into a bigger shit show every hour.

FOUR deputies failed to enter school building in shooting | Daily Mail Online


----------



## DC (Feb 23, 2018)

^^^
Yup🤬


----------



## Kraut783 (Feb 23, 2018)

saw that on the news, the responding Coral Springs PD guys were not happy. 

Would like to hear the radio traffic to see what was being said on the ground at the time......sad day for Broward County...I had always heard good things.

I know at our department we have active shooter training and ambush training annually....I can count on one hand the number of "retired on duty" that would probably do the same as that SRO, and most of those are 25+ plus year officers.

There are always soldiers, cops, who run toward the sound of battle, and those that retreat or hold.....not right, but it happens.


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 23, 2018)

Tin foil chapeaux have become all the rage in the last few years, so I’m making one for this discussion, a’la Kentucky Derby style. 

With the abject failure of the FBI to exercise due diligence, nay even give the tiniest shred of a fuck, the inability of BCSO to police their way out of a wet paper bag that’s open on both ends regarding this situation, and the overall willful disregard for enforcement of the laws already on the books at state and federal levels, it’s starting to look a lot like folks are trying to nullify the 2nd Amendment. “Look! The laws don’t prevent the shootings!” Ummmm, because you let it happen by not doing what you said would prevent this shit decades ago?

The only thing that leads me to NOT believe in such a conspiracy is that modern Americans are fucking idiots. They eat Tide Pods, beer-bong handles of booze, and other feats that lack self-preservation for YouTube glory. They’re too fucking dumb to put together a conspiracy like that. Occam’s Razor cuts deep...


----------



## DC (Feb 23, 2018)




----------



## Bypass (Feb 24, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Fuuuuck me.
> 
> This is turning into a bigger shit show every hour.
> 
> FOUR deputies failed to enter school building in shooting | Daily Mail Online


I was just going to post this. Unbelievable I even talked to my mom about it and she was dismayed. People like us who run towards gun fire will never understand that kind of cowardice. If it was cowardice or just stupidity. Talk about failing in every way possible. The unarmed PE teacher at least tried to shield the children losing his own life in the process. I wish the PE teacher had been armed at least he cared enough to try.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 24, 2018)

Bypass said:


> I was just going to post this. Unbelievable I even talked to my mom about it and she was dismayed. People like us who run towards gun fire will never understand that kind of cowardice. If it was cowardice or just stupidity. Talk about failing in every way possible. The unarmed PE teacher at least tried to shield the children losing his own life in the process. I wish the PE teacher had been armed at least he cared enough to try.


What I cannot, will not, ever get past is that these officers had at least some tactical training. This fucking kid would have shit his pants if he were suddenly confronted by someone armed.  

I’m waiting for the “we didn’t know what we were dealing with” excuse. 

Fuck the hell off with that bullshit, boys. That line went out the window with Columbine.  Every swinging dick and his mama “knows” the source of gun fire is going to be a single white kid with an AR.  It always is.

And people ask me why I “carry” nearly everywhere I go.  This is just one more example of acknowledging that I cannot count on the police to protect me.  

  To add -
I can only try to imagine how frustrated and angry the average LEO is by this story.


----------



## Bypass (Feb 24, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> What I cannot, will not, ever get past is that these officers had at least some tactical training. This fucking kid would have shit his pants if he were suddenly confronted by someone armed.
> 
> I’m waiting for the “we didn’t know what we were dealing with” excuse.
> 
> ...


Yup, I know my family members who are LE and ex LE are pissed. My uncle is one of those school officers in Alabama. He is an ex state trooper who I am sure is fuming right now. I need to call him.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 24, 2018)

Cowards die many times before their deaths.
The valiant never taste of death but once.
... W. Shakespeare


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 24, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> Cowards die many times before their deaths.
> The valiant never taste of death but once.



If you are going to quote Shakespeare, at least give the man his due credit.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Feb 24, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> If you are going to quote Shakespeare, at least give the man his due credit.



Fixed...


----------



## DocIllinois (Feb 24, 2018)

So, if a LE officer(s) whose only purpose in life is school security shits the bed when things get real, what is the expectation that someone engaged in the activity of teaching kids will switch gears fast enough to draw in time and fire accurately?  Or to fire accurately and not friendly fire on kids if a shootout occurs in confined spaces with children running all over the place?

What's to stop a shooter entering a school with his favorite rifle from simply thinking, "take out the teacher first" if they know teachers are strapped? 

Will arming be a voluntary thing, or will there be consequences if "adept teachers with military or special training..." say 'no' to carrying?


Caveat:  I ask these questions should anyone have real specialization in school security, or material from those who do, and not to state any position.


----------



## racing_kitty (Feb 24, 2018)

Caveat: this program may not have existed when you served, @DocIllinois, so you may not have known about it. Having said that, the Troops To Teachers program is a successful program. This link shows their FY2016 numbers. 

Reading many of your responses in this thread, my perception of your view of teachers is that they would be reticent to even accidentally gaze upon a firearm, much less operate one inside or outside a training environment. And most of them are, yes. However, this program demonstrates that there already are teachers with at least a minimum of military training out there in the schools. Given, I haven’t had the time to suss out the breakdown of participants by MOS, but it’s fair to say that the combat arms MOSs are not excluded from this program. 

Adjusting for the existence of those participants who would never touch a gun again if their lives depended on it, and the disproportionate representation of the southern states in the military coupled with the likelihood of their returning to where they came from after retirement/ETS, it was more likely that the Florida shooter would run into a veteran/teacher than the Sandy Hook shooter.

As teachers, these veterans would already understand the concept that their job would not be to close with, engage, and destroy the enemy. Rather, the expectation would be to mount an armed defense of their students in whatever area they were forced to take cover. Or, should they be caught in the open by the antagonist, to engage as such to enable their charges to escape and take cover. 

Given that the shooter would most likely believe that 100% of his adult targets are unarmed, the presence of just one adult firing a bare minimum of suppressive fire (if brandishing alone didn’t do it) would upend his apocalyptic delusion of grandeur and likely end with a fatal, self-inflicted wound to the antagonist. Remember, these school and church shooters aren’t battle tested CQB masters re-enacting the storming of Beslan, they’re unstable menaces that —had the laws already in place been followed — shouldn’t have been able to legally procure weapons to start with, and are following a “tactical plan” that was probably written by the underpants gnomes. 

For the majority of teachers that aren’t prior service, let the decision to carry be 100% voluntary. Teach them how to hit what they aim at, and that they are there to defend whatever classroom or closet they are barricaded inside of, not to get their SWAT on. Let the counteroffensive be the bailiwick of armed security or law enforcement (assuming that they aren’t made of the same stuff as Broward’s Cowards).


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 24, 2018)

Seems I'm late to the show.  Bullets...

Lack of parenting, fear of parents, fear of adult, beatings etc
Lack of godliness
Not being taught the value of life both at school and in the home
zero state mental health apparatus
In the 1950s you could straight up bring guns to elementary schools...rifles of course even...what changed
do we want to live in a free and open society?
Then you accept that there will be shootings and terrorist attacks.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Feb 24, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Seems I'm late to the show.  Bullets...
> 
> Lack of parenting, fear of parents, fear of adult, beatings etc
> Lack of godliness
> ...


Come on man.  PLEASE.

There are 10 pages of conversation in this thread.

What do your “bullets” (and using that word in the context you did was tasteless in this thread, by the way) mean?

If you are only going to supply a list, can you at least share what the list is supposed to be of?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 24, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Come on man.  PLEASE.
> 
> There are 10 pages of conversation in this thread.
> 
> ...


I would state that School Shootings are not a part of our national culture and that they are isolated incidents each with their own issues. The really only similarity between say Sandy Hook and Stoneman is that both young men were mentally deranged.  

When you look at the list, yes, we've had school shootings for a very long time.  But when you measure them against the aggregate student population they are extremely rare.


----------



## Kraut783 (Feb 25, 2018)

Again, I would like to hear the radio traffic....

"It's still unclear whether deputies did indeed hesitate before going inside the school. 
Israel was asked Thursday during a press conference about whether his deputies were *told to wait for SWAT officers before going into the building.* The sheriff told a reporter he did not know anything about that and quickly moved on to another question."

Florida school shooting: Broward sheriff probes claim that more deputies did not immediately enter school


----------



## ThunderHorse (Feb 26, 2018)

This is a bad look bro, time to resign: 



__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/967811615419707394

Pretty sure he's talking about managers, because that's not how leaders act.


----------



## Marauder06 (Feb 26, 2018)

Wow that's a pretty shitty thing for a leader to say.  It's like a case study in blameshifting.


----------



## Poccington (Feb 26, 2018)

If you guys have the time, watch this interview. Sheriff Israel's attitude is absolutely mind boggling.


----------



## Gunz (Feb 26, 2018)

Standby for numerous lawsuits against the BSO and FBI. Compare to NYPD and NYFD actions on 9/11. They went the fuck in and did their jobs and the hell with their own safety, unlike the stories we're hearing from S. Florida.

Fucking yellow bastards.


----------



## Hillclimb (Feb 26, 2018)

@13:35 they talk about a EMS responder claiming he was denied entry onto the scene, and in mass casualty situations he was taught not wait for the scene to be cleared, and to just go in armed to retrieve casualties. 

Is that standard for EMS? And are EMS armed in FL?


----------



## Devildoc (Feb 26, 2018)

Hillclimb said:


> @13:35 they talk about a EMS responder claiming he was denied entry onto the scene, and in mass casualty situations he was taught not wait for the scene to be cleared, and to just go in armed to retrieve casualties.
> 
> Is that standard for EMS? And are EMS armed in FL?



No, and no.

While there is training for _some _EMS providers to enter the scene with SWAT, it is not standard training to enter a hot zone prior to it being cleared.  Likewise, _some_ EMS providers _may_ be armed (depending on if they are attached to a tac team and the team's policies for its medics), but again, not the standard.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Poccington said:


>


----------



## Topkick (Feb 26, 2018)

Red Flag 1 said:


> CNN with real hardball questions is good, and I am surprised to hear CNN questioning the attack on the NRA. The Sheriff has a lot to answer for and I think that no matter how things turn out, the next election will be pretty hard for the Sheriff. This was a great interview.
> 
> There have been so many missed opportunities to stop this well in advance of the shooting, right up to him walking into the school with an AR-15 in hand. Even the ride to the school armed with the AR-15 going unquestioned.
> 
> As an aside, if my name was Peterson and I had a son, "Scot(t)" would not be the first name I would pick.



Not a CNN fan, but Tapper asked some fair and tough questions. This Sheriff was seemingly on his way to fame, but the truth seems to be turning it to infamy. He's not helping himself much.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Feb 26, 2018)

Topkick said:


> Not a CNN fan, but Tapper asked some fair and tough questions. This Sheriff was seemingly on


----------



## Topkick (Feb 26, 2018)

Red Flag 1 said:


> Yeah, I agree and I was pleasantly surprised by the directness CNN showed.
> 
> What I saw was a 4-star, whatever that means, tapdancing.



Most 4 stars are better tapdancers than this guy.


----------



## SaintKP (Feb 26, 2018)

I saw the Twitter video of him and thought that maybe he meant something else, but then watched the full CNN video...Yeah he isn't going to be sheriff for long. Yes, it's terrible that the school resource officer didn't go in as soon as shots were fired, but there is a special place in hell for people like the sheriff.


----------



## RackMaster (Feb 27, 2018)

This just gets worse every day.



> According to the report, “sources near the Broward County Sheriff’s Office,” said that deputies that arrived or were present at the high school, located in Parkland, Florida, were instructed not to enter the building “unless their body cameras were turned on.”
> 
> Ingraham went on to state that none of the deputies had body cameras with them at the time of the incident, “so they did not enter the building or engage the shooter.”



http://tribunist.com/news/deputies-...g-unless-they-had-body-cameras/?utm_source=SR


----------



## Kraut783 (Mar 1, 2018)

mmmm....Now I really want to hear the radio traffic.

"commanding officer on scene apparently ordered some of the initial responders to “stage” and set up a “perimeter” outside -- instead of immediately ordering or allowing officers to rush in to neutralize the suspect"

Commanding officer initially ordered responding deputies to 'stage' not enter Stoneman Douglas, sources say


----------



## CDG (Mar 1, 2018)

My first thought when I heard the body camera story was that the leadership was so concerned about it being a minority shooter, and what would happen if they shot and killed him, that they decided it was better to just wait.


----------



## DC (Mar 1, 2018)

CDG said:


> My first thought when I heard the body camera story was that the leadership was so concerned about it being a minority shooter, and what would happen if they shot and killed him, that they decided it was better to just wait.


They fire cops at LAPD for not synchronizing body cams. My son has been warned himself. Not unusual.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 1, 2018)

Some really shitty protocol that's definitely getting people killed.


----------



## DC (Mar 2, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Some really shitty protocol that's definitely getting people killed.



Yep.


----------



## AWP (Mar 2, 2018)

This is a shit show without 17 dead. With those 17...Jesus Christ.


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 2, 2018)

Not sure if this was covered when this article was originally published. 

If You Want to Know How to Stop School Shootings, Ask the Secret Service


----------



## SaintKP (Mar 2, 2018)

Personal liberty versus the greater good. But, it also raises the question of where is the cut off at? One argument to be made is that we already live in a society that is watched and monitored by the government, so is it really that much of an issue to bring a kid in who is posting stuff that goes beyond edgy teenager angst? Or, much like the current gun control debate would it be the start of a slippery slope that once it's initiated there is no stopping it. Personally speaking I'm highly against giving up personal freedom, while I have no doubt enabling LE to have the freedom to grab someone for questioning or a vastly increased scope of surveillance and power would decrease potential crime. Do we honestly need to go the nuclear route?

This event much like the Texas church shooter has similarities in the sense that he fell through the cracks, in both cases federal bodies were aware but paid no attention. In Florida, even the local PD had repeated complaints and didn't even keep a file on the kid.

I'm not sure if it has already been covered by one of the other members but what is the process for something like this? A kid gets repeated complaints to the FBI and local LE about how he's wanting to shoot up the school, how do they go from there? Maybe one of the LE members on here can elaborate?


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 2, 2018)

2 reportedly shot at Central Michigan University, gunman 'armed and dangerous'

Lets see how this pans out...


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Mar 2, 2018)

[QUOTE="Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆,


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 2, 2018)

They seem to happen often at the same time, often influenced by the other as we tend to publicize the shooters.


----------



## DC (Mar 2, 2018)

Some colleges have thier own police force. Wonder what campus assets were available.


----------



## DC (Mar 2, 2018)

What in our culture spawns these personality disorders to metamorphize into murder? Always seems innocents and soft targets. Bullying? Video games? Parenting? Is society as barbaric as it seems?


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Mar 2, 2018)

DC said:


> Some colleges have thier own police force. Wonder what campus assets were available.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 2, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> They seem to happen often at the same time, often influenced by the other as we tend to publicize the shooters.



Ohio student planned shooting 'bigger than anything this country's ever seen'

Exactly. I'm not sure how to keep the killer out of the story.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 2, 2018)

How on God's green earth did a 19 year old get a hand gun? That's against the law!!!

2 killed at Central Michigan University, gunman 'armed and dangerous' still at large


----------



## DocIllinois (Mar 2, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> How on God's green earth did a 19 year old get a hand gun? That's against the law!!!
> 
> 2 killed at Central Michigan University, gunman 'armed and dangerous' still at large



The US is awash in guns available to civilians, over 300 million of them.  They aren't difficult to obtain, legal or illicit.

CRS Gun Control Legislation

Just ask anyone you see in south and west Chicago, for example, where someone is shot every four minutes and there have already been 67 gun homicides and counting.  And its not yet even the peak killing season.


----------



## SaintKP (Mar 2, 2018)

DocIllinois said:


> The US is awash in guns available to civilians, over 300 million of them.  They aren't difficult to obtain, legal or illicit.
> 
> CRS Gun Control Legislation
> 
> Just ask anyone you see in south and west Chicago, for example, where someone is shot every four minutes and there have already been 67 gun homicides and counting.  And its not yet even the peak killing season.




I believe Funky was being sardonic, but your post still raises a valid point. Gun laws in terms of age restriction do little to prevent someone from getting a gun if they want to. More often than not it makes it so people who are doing so legally have to partake in the horse and pony show.


----------



## Gunz (Mar 2, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> Not sure if this was covered when this article was originally published.
> 
> If You Want to Know How to Stop School Shootings, Ask the Secret Service




This is a good piece, G. There is one statement that I would question, as follows:

_...multiple people did come forward with concerns. The alleged shooter was on several different radars,* but unless he was posing an imminent danger to himself or others, he couldn’t be jailed or forced to receive psychological services. *_

Like I mentioned earlier, a verbal or written threat to seriously injure or kill someone is a felony in Florida. If any of those students had reported his death threats he could've--and should've--been arrested. If the cops knew about his threats and _didn't_ arrest him, then it's another major fuck-up for the Broward County S.O.


----------



## policemedic (Mar 2, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> This is a good piece, G. There is one statement that I would question, as follows:
> 
> _...multiple people did come forward with concerns. The alleged shooter was on several different radars,* but unless he was posing an imminent danger to himself or others, he couldn’t be jailed or forced to receive psychological services. *_
> 
> Like I mentioned earlier, a verbal or written threat to seriously injure or kill someone is a felony in Florida. If any of those students had reported his death threats he could've--and should've--been arrested. If the cops knew about his threats and _didn't_ arrest him, then it's another major fuck-up for the Broward County S.O.



Arrest isn’t a cure all, unfortunately. He’d have made bail and we’re right back where we started.

Arrests can’t be made on all crimes, even those the police are aware of.  Broadly speaking, the state requires a complainant, a victim to bring charges. Sometimes the state itself can be the complainant, but in a threat case an actual person is required. If the police can’t convince the victim to press charges, then arrest isn’t happening. 

I suppose an argument could be made that an arrest may have resulted in the seizure of his rifle. That wouldn’t have stopped anything; he certainly could have obtained another one by multiple means or chosen a different method of attack.


----------



## 256 (Mar 2, 2018)

policemedic said:


> Arrest isn’t a cure all, unfortunately. He’d have made bail and we’re right back where we started.
> 
> Arrests can’t be made on all crimes, even those the police are aware of.  Broadly speaking, the state requires a complainant, a victim to bring charges. Sometimes the state itself can be the complainant, but in a threat case an actual person is required. If the police can’t convince the victim to press charges, then arrest isn’t happening.
> 
> I suppose an argument could be made that an arrest may have resulted in the seizure of his rifle. That wouldn’t have stopped anything; he certainly could have obtained another one by multiple means or chosen a different method of attack.



Our judge will not allow a warrantless arrest of a charge signed by a victim unless the crimes falls under ORC definition of a “warrantless allowed” offenses, ie charges of violence. I just got off the phone with our prosecutor talking about the very same thing..


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 2, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> being sardonic



Sardinian plant or Assyrian king, it's a killer.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 2, 2018)

I am SO disappointed that REI got involved in this. I’ve spent literally thousands of dollars there...now I just don’t know.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...to-its-weapons-sales-nra-ties/&freshcontent=1

CamelBak water bottles, Bell bicycle helmets, Giro ski goggles — these products are all  owned by Vista Outdoor, which includes gun and ammo makers among its brands and has a strong connection to the National Rifle Association.

And that’s part of the reason REI, a nationwide outdoor retailer and consumer co-op, announced Thursday evening that it would no longer be ordering CamelBak, Bell, Giro or any other of the 50 Vista Outdoor brands to sell in its stores.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 2, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I am SO disappointed that REI got involved in this. I’ve spent literally thousands of dollars there...now I just don’t know.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...to-its-weapons-sales-nra-ties/&freshcontent=1
> 
> ...



They're gonna have a problem.  The amount of Vista products in an REI store (I'd never heard of Vista Outdoor) is extraordinarily high.  This is a stupid move and is going to affect their bottom line.


----------



## DC (Mar 2, 2018)

REI is overpriced. Shop Amazon or get on ProMotive/Expercity.


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 2, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I am SO disappointed that REI got involved in this. I’ve spent literally thousands of dollars there...now I just don’t know.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...to-its-weapons-sales-nra-ties/&freshcontent=1
> 
> ...



Same shit happening up here.  A place like REI, MEC and the Running Room both dropped Vista.


----------



## CDG (Mar 2, 2018)

I very rarely shopped at REI anyways, because they are definitely overpriced, like @DC said.  Wal Mart is also getting in on the action by announcing no sales of guns or ammo to anyone under 21.

Walmart and Dick’s Raise Minimum Age for Gun Buyers to 21

Not using Wal Mart will be more difficult, but I will do what I can.  My wife doesn't get worked enough over this to take that step, so she will continue to shop there.  I will take my business elsewhere whenever possible though.  I don't support businesses making bullshit knee-jerk decisions that have no factual basis.


----------



## DC (Mar 2, 2018)

Turners Outdoorsman, Big 5 here is pretty good. Last time I was in a brick and mortar outdoor store was Bass Pro in Wyoming. These quitter merchs just gave other shops a huge boost. Fuck um. Fuck em all.


----------



## policemedic (Mar 2, 2018)

256 said:


> Our judge will not allow a warrantless arrest of a charge signed by a victim unless the crimes falls under ORC definition of a “warrantless allowed” offenses, ie charges of violence. I just got off the phone with our prosecutor talking about the very same thing..



Yeah, same here on many (but not all) misdemeanors not witnessed by the police--including some assaults.  These instances require a warrant and an arrest at a later date.

The bigger problem we encounter is a lack of willing complainants, because whether the arrest is made immediately or later on, the case hinges on a complainant.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 3, 2018)

Damn.  

My initial reaction is WTF.   But is the rule “when the door gets locked, it stays locked?”  

Reminds me of the submarine movies when they are forced to “close the hatch” while there are still guys on the other side with water flowing in.   

Parkland high school junior hits out at 'coward' teacher | Daily Mail Online


----------



## Gunz (Mar 3, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I am SO disappointed that REI got involved in this. I’ve spent literally thousands of dollars there...now I just don’t know.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...to-its-weapons-sales-nra-ties/&freshcontent=1
> 
> ...



I hate my CamelBak and my ski goggles because they helped the NRA kill all those kids so Im going to take them outside and shoot--oh, wait--stab them.


----------



## 256 (Mar 3, 2018)

policemedic said:


> Yeah, same here on many (but not all) misdemeanors not witnessed by the police--including some assaults.  These instances require a warrant and an arrest at a later date.
> 
> The bigger problem we encounter is a lack of willing complainants, because whether the arrest is made immediately or later on, the case hinges on a complainant.



Ok, glad to hear that. I thought our judge was the only one. Seems like just a couple years ago the victim could sign a complaint and we could go make an arrest. Which, now that I think about it seems very wrong constitutionally. I’m not sure how I’d feel if the Police arrested me based on their determination of probable cause. Again, thinking constitutionally.

Think I said this before, I arrested an 18 year old student for “Making terroristic treats” (F4) last year. He posted on Facebook that he was going to get high and shoot up the school. Grand jury did not indict. Makes me feel like the public is worried about this issue only when it actually happens. For that specific Ohio Revised Code it even says something like, “it is not a defense that the defendant doesn’t have the means to carry out such an act.” When he (after being marandized) admitted the posting was his and that he wrote it an indictment should have been handed down. I think it speaks to the complacency of the public, “he wouldn’t have done that” kind of a thing.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 3, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Damn.
> 
> My initial reaction is WTF.   But is the rule “when the door gets locked, it stays locked?”
> 
> ...



Was the child shot? That would actually make him a victim.  If so I can legit understand the child's frustration.  However, procedures exist for a reason and that's not being a coward.  Doesn't make you a hero, but it sure as shit doesn't make you a coward.  The peak outrage and woke culture needs to get excised from our society.


----------



## 256 (Mar 3, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Damn.
> 
> My initial reaction is WTF.   But is the rule “when the door gets locked, it stays locked?”
> 
> ...




Maybe I’m being insensitive but like your submarine analogy, save the lives of the many instead of the few...


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 3, 2018)

CDG said:


> I very rarely shopped at REI anyways, because they are definitely overpriced, like @DC said.  Wal Mart is also getting in on the action by announcing no sales of guns or ammo to anyone under 21.
> 
> Walmart and Dick’s Raise Minimum Age for Gun Buyers to 21
> 
> Not using Wal Mart will be more difficult, but I will do what I can.  My wife doesn't get worked enough over this to take that step, so she will continue to shop there.  I will take my business elsewhere whenever possible though.  I don't support businesses making bullshit knee-jerk decisions that have no factual basis.



I rarely go to Wal Mart anymore.  I do buy my dog's Cosequin there because is so ridiculously cheap.  Due to the Cosequin being situated near the back of the store, just getting to it makes me regret even being in Wal Mart and I cannot wait to get out.    I have been buying the Cosequin in bulk to keep these excursions to a minimum.
Cannot do REI.  Too many hipsters!


----------



## DC (Mar 3, 2018)

Walmart is Chicom junk store. Everything disposable. It’s what happened when we let china take our manufacturing complex. Greed.


----------



## Blizzard (Mar 4, 2018)

y





Ooh-Rah said:


> I am SO disappointed that REI got involved in this. I’ve spent literally thousands of dollars there...now I just don’t know.
> 
> https://www.washingtonpost.com/amph...to-its-weapons-sales-nra-ties/&freshcontent=1
> 
> ...


Concur.  Extremely disappointed in REI.  This should smell like opportunity for the new Gander Outdoors.

I am curious though... I've never shopped Walmart and I've never even considered Dick's when shopping firearms.  Clearly, they must sell enough to warrant continued sales but who really shops there?  That's a serious question and not meant to disrespect anyone that does...like I said, I've simply never shopped them; I've always gone to actual gun shops or shopped manufacturers/distributers online.  Do Walmart/Dick's cater to people just getting into firearms?  I imagine it being mostly lower quality, entry level, budget type stuff but maybe I'm missing out on something?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 4, 2018)

Blizzard said:


> y
> Concur.  Extremely disappointed in REI.  This should smell like opportunity for the new Gander Outdoors.
> 
> I am curious though... I've never shopped Walmart and I've never even considered Dick's when shopping firearms.  Clearly, they must sell enough to warrant continued sales but who really shops there?  That's a serious question and not meant to disrespect anyone that does...like I said, I've simply never shopped them; I've always gone to actual gun shops or shopped manufacturers/distributers online.  Do Walmart/Dick's cater to people just getting into firearms?  I imagine it being mostly lower quality, entry level, budget type stuff but maybe I'm missing out on something?



I never saw ARs in Dick's SG before Sandy Hook let alone after.  I don't remember firearms being in store in Georgia.  There was a decent selection in El Paso, but mostly pistols and shotguns and some bolt guns.  I would say Dick's catered mostly to bird hunters.  Whereas Academy pushed a lot more decent stuff, still kind of shit entry level firearms.  They did sell ARs, cheap ones.


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 4, 2018)

After Sandy Hook when no one had ammo around here ....Wal Mart had ammo.  Go figure.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 5, 2018)

Malkin: Surrounded by Armed Security, 'Hypocritical' Celebs Lecture America on Guns

Armed security for the celebs but not for ous shcool kids?


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 5, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> Malkin: Surrounded by Armed Security, 'Hypocritical' Celebs Lecture America on Guns
> 
> Armed security for the celebs but not for ous shcool kids?



Without guns, them morlochs be all over the elois before you can say "miscegenation", boy.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 5, 2018)

Frank S. said:


> Without guns, them morlochs be all over the elois before you can say "miscegenation", boy.



Huh?


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 5, 2018)

Frank is so weird...but it always gives me a giggle.


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 5, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> Huh?



The Eloi and the Morlocks in The Time Machine


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 5, 2018)

Frank S. said:


> The Eloi and the Morlocks in The Time Machine



Nonsensical good sir...


----------



## policemedic (Mar 5, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> Huh?



You, sir, are culturally deprived.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 5, 2018)

policemedic said:


> You, sir, are culturally deprived.



I'm not hip to all you youngsters lingo...


----------



## DocIllinois (Mar 5, 2018)

Frank S. said:


> Without guns, them morlochs be all over the elois before you can say "miscegenation", boy.



We're all Morlochs. 

The pretty happens, though.


----------



## Red Flag 1 (Mar 5, 2018)

👍😎


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 5, 2018)

Ok...


----------



## Topkick (Mar 5, 2018)

Red Flag 1 said:


> After some time, you will find that @Frank S. is always spot on and then some. I will say that you may have to work at it, but he is always there. There will only be one @Frank S. 👍😎



You will usually have to think it through, even research it, but @Frank S.  is usually on top of it.


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 5, 2018)

Topkick said:


> You will usually have to think it through, even research it, but @Frank S.  is usually on top of it.


As in literally "on top of it"?


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 6, 2018)

Frank S. said:


> Without guns, them morlochs be all over the elois before you can say "miscegenation", boy.



"Time Machine"... Never read it.


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 6, 2018)

Check out the film adaptations, then, the 1960 version with Rod Taylor or the 2002 with Guy Pearce. It's a classic.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 6, 2018)

Back on track...

...sigh...

And here is the Captain who gave the order to "stage" vs. "rush".

Broward sheriff's captain who gave initial order to 'stage' not enter Stoneman Douglas is ID'd

The Broward County Sheriff’s Office has identified to Fox News the captain who, according to sources, directed responding deputies and units to “stage” or form a “perimeter” outside Stoneman Douglas High School, instead of rushing immediately into the building, as the mass shooting unfolded there.

Multiple law enforcement and official sources said the commands in the initial moments after Nikolas Cruz allegedly opened fire would go against all training which instructs first responders to “go, go, go” until the shooter is neutralized. As law enforcement arrived, the shooter’s identity and exact location were still unknown.

Multiple sources told Fox News that Captain Jan Jordan was the commanding officer on scene. In an email responding to Fox News’ request for information, a BSO spokesperson wrote, “Capt. Jordan’s radio call sign is 17S1.”


----------



## policemedic (Mar 6, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Back on track...
> 
> ...sigh...
> 
> ...



She may have given the order. But no one should have followed it. Suspend me.


----------



## DC (Mar 6, 2018)

Stand by for smoke screens and finger pointing. Leadership is the cause of poor incident management. They should all be fired. Start with Israel the allegedly “great leader”.🙄


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 6, 2018)

There seems to be some background info on the Captain here:  Captain in Parkland school shooting was brought onto force by Sheriff Israel



> Broward sheriff’s commander — in the spotlight for her role in the Parkland school shooting — applied for employment at the Sheriff’s Office just weeks after Sheriff Scott Israel won his first term in office.
> Capt. Jan Jordan, who commands the Parkland district, listed Israel, a former Fort Lauderdale Police captain and SWAT commander, as the one who referred her, according to her Dec. 21, 2012, job application.






> Jordan had worked 20 years at the Fort Lauderdale Police Department, leaving in 2009 at the rank of captain, according to her personnel file, released Friday by the Sheriff’s Office.
> After that, she moved to Colorado and worked for just over a year as a sergeant at the Town of Breckenridge Police Department.
> Upon returning to Broward County, she worked eight months as accreditation coordinator for the Wilton Manors Police Department and just over three months as an investigator for the Broward County Public Defender’s Office.
> Jordan, 49, was overseeing the Broward Sheriff’s Office Civil Division, which handles the service of legal documents, before she was selected to be the Parkland district commander, according to a 2017 performance evaluation.
> ...


----------



## ShadowSpear (Mar 6, 2018)

Well here’s a kid who attempted to go above and beyond the firearm to kill a bunch of kids. 

Police: Teen attempted to detonate explosive device at Pine View, researched ISIS


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 6, 2018)

Give him an extended field trip to Gitmo.


----------



## ShadowSpear (Mar 6, 2018)

Chopstick said:


> Give him an extended field trip to Gitmo.



And I propose banning every component of this device


----------



## DC (Mar 6, 2018)

Humanity needs to be banned from itself.


----------



## DC (Mar 6, 2018)

Chopstick said:


> There seems to be some background info on the Captain here:  Captain in Parkland school shooting was brought onto force by Sheriff Israel


Admin cop in command on the street. What a walking clusterfuck.


----------



## CDG (Mar 7, 2018)

I am seeing a trend develop here.  What we really need to do, is ban everyone under the age of 21.  That's it.  Stay indoors, and don't you fucking come out until you can pop on down to the tavern and order a cold brew.


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 7, 2018)

Some of these cops may soon begin the meandering travel westward like Gypsies.

Gypsy cops could make an interesting series.


----------



## Marauder06 (Mar 7, 2018)

ShadowSpear said:


> Well here’s a kid who attempted to go above and beyond the firearm to kill a bunch of kids.
> 
> Police: Teen attempted to detonate explosive device at Pine View, researched ISIS



Wow,  I hadn't heard about this one.

It seems like the terrorism angle is getting downplayed quite a bit.  Interesting.

As far as the "staging" thing goes, as a layperson I get why the officers would follow those orders instead of running in.  In a situation that chaotic, people are acting under incomplete information.  It seems possible that as far as those officers knew, there may have been a very good reason why they were told to stage; perhaps they thought there was a team inside, perhaps the gunman was about to burst out of the school and get into a place where he (or they, I don't think the officers knew at the time) could have caused even more damage.

The danger of everyone always running to the sound of the guns is that sometimes that's exactly what the bad guys want.  It reminds me of watching toddlers play soccer:  everyone in a mass mob around the ball.  It normally works a lot better if everyone plays their position.  That is, of course, contingent upon the coaching staff adequately prepping their players and making the right call from the sidelines.  That last bit seems to be lacking in this case.


----------



## SaintKP (Mar 7, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> As far as the "staging" thing goes, as a layperson I get why the officers would follow those orders instead of running in. In a situation that chaotic, people are acting under incomplete information. It seems possible that as far as those officers knew, there may have been a very good reason why they were told to stage; perhaps they thought there was a team inside, perhaps the gunman was about to burst out of the school and get into a place where he (or they, I don't think the officers knew at the time) could have caused even more damage.




That's what I had thought as well, obviously I know nothing about these types of situations or how to handle them nor am I going to act like I do. But isn't it a somewhat decent reason (even if it sucks to do so)to setup for a second to understand what's going on instead of rushing into the chaotic unknown? 

I think this is the same thing with the sheriff, I'd rather hear the decision making and thought process behind the command to set a perimeter before I damn them completely.


----------



## DC (Mar 7, 2018)

Depends on your job. If its what your trained and hired to do you go. It primordal for me because of training and experience. As for the Broward deputies it was a situation to violate the command and control to save lives. Job be fucking damned.


----------



## SaintKP (Mar 7, 2018)

DC said:


> Depends on your job. If its what your trained and hired to do you go. It primordal for me because of training and experience. As for the Broward deputies it was a situation to violate the command and control to save lives. Job be fucking damned.



I agree with you completely, I wish they would have gone in sooner to try and prevent it from being as bad as it became. But maybe those deputies don't have the same mentality as you or a lot of the other members on here, whether it be from different levels of training, etc. 

I don't know, guess I'm just trying to make sense of the absolute shit sandwich this thing has turned into.


----------



## DC (Mar 7, 2018)

Protect and Serve...applies to ALL levels of law enforcement.


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 7, 2018)

And if this doesn't make things from stupid to very stupid, I don't know what does. 

Two Miramar SWAT officers suspended for heading to Parkland massacre


----------



## Topkick (Mar 7, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> And if this doesn't make things from stupid to very stupid, I don't know what does.
> 
> Two Miramar SWAT officers suspended for heading to Parkland massacre



The whole event seems like a bunch of stupid. Starting from "I'm going to be a professional school shooter" and nobody checking up on it.


----------



## policemedic (Mar 7, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> I agree with you completely, I wish they would have gone in sooner to try and prevent it from being as bad as it became. But maybe those deputies don't have the same mentality as you or a lot of the other members on here, whether it be from different levels of training, etc.
> 
> I don't know, guess I'm just trying to make sense of the absolute shit sandwich this thing has turned into.



If the deputies didn't have the requisite mindset to go in and engage the shooter they should be ashamed to call themselves lawmen.  The response paradigm for active shooter events is so well established now I have difficulty believing they didn't know what to do.  

There is a point where a perimeter and other areas should be set up.  It's OK to take a quick tactical pause, form into a fire team and then go hunt the shooter.  If you're the first guy there i.e. the assigned SRO, the pause should last no longer than it takes to determine where the shots are coming from.  But perimeters should not take priority over ending the violence.

If the deputies on scene were unwilling to enter the school then Starbucks is hiring.  

I'm eagerly waiting for the transcripts of the radio traffic but what is clear is that there was a massive command failure here.


----------



## DC (Mar 7, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> And if this doesn't make things from stupid to very stupid, I don't know what does.
> 
> Two Miramar SWAT officers suspended for heading to Parkland massacre



Gunna bet thier chief is X-LAPD or of that ilk.


----------



## policemedic (Mar 7, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> And if this doesn't make things from stupid to very stupid, I don't know what does.
> 
> Two Miramar SWAT officers suspended for heading to Parkland massacre



I actually understand both sides of this.  If I'm close to the event, I'm definitely going.  So are my guys.  So, kudos to these detectives for taking the initiative.

Problem is, they were about 28 miles out of their primary jurisdiction and apparently didn't notify their department they were deploying to the active shooter.  That's a problem, particularly where the lead agency hasn't requested aid.

I'm not sure it merits suspension from the team, though.


----------



## SaintKP (Mar 7, 2018)

policemedic said:


> If the deputies didn't have the requisite mindset to go in and engage the shooter they should be ashamed to call themselves lawmen.  The response paradigm for active shooter events is so well established now I have difficulty believing they didn't know what to do.
> 
> There is a point where a perimeter and other areas should be set up.  It's OK to take a quick tactical pause, form into a fire team and then go hunt the shooter.  If you're the first guy there i.e. the assigned SRO, the pause should last no longer than it takes to determine where the shots are coming from.  But perimeters should not take priority over ending the violence.
> 
> ...




Damn, I was hoping that that wasn't the case. Just a complete and utter shit show on all levels. Thank you for explaining.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 8, 2018)

Another one... WTF is going on? 

Alabama: 1 dead, another student hurt in school shooting


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 8, 2018)

If a possible mass shooter wants to hone his craft, don't hand him a virtual boot camp (Opinion) - CNN

"There is at least one documented case of a killer using a first-person shooter game to improve his combat skills. According to the Guardian, the Norwegian shooter Anders Breivik told the court in 2012 that he used "a holographic aiming device" in the game "Call of Duty" to develop his target acquisition abilities." ~Jeremy Bailenson

This is out of control. I played Mortal Kombat, Street Fighter, Doom all kinds of video games and was always able to differentiate between fantasy and reality. It seems to me that everyone is looking to place blame on everything but the lack of parenting and family structure. 

Opinions?


----------



## Devildoc (Mar 8, 2018)

Yeah, because the wind, recoil, temperature, breathing control are honed on those first-person shooter games....


----------



## DocIllinois (Mar 8, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> If a possible mass shooter wants to hone his craft, don't hand him a virtual boot camp (Opinion) - CNN
> 
> "There is at least one documented case of a killer using a first-person shooter game to improve his combat skills. According to the Guardian, the Norwegian shooter Anders Breivik told the court in 2012 that he used "a holographic aiming device" in the game "Call of Duty" to develop his target acquisition abilities." ~Jeremy Bailenson
> 
> ...



The author's argument is that a potential mass shooter can "hone his craft" by playing virtual reality, first person shooter games.  How much honing really needs done by someone already bent on a mass shooting, who has access to guns that can fire in very rapid succession, toward defenseless and terrified targets confined to a small room or hallway?  I would suggest, not too much. 

On whether this "honing" contributes to "improve... combat skills," I don't know of anything that supports the notion besides the author's reference to an article in The Guardian on a far right terrorist's court tesitmony, though I could be wrong on that. 

On whether the "honing" is a contributing cause of committing acts of lethal violence, the research is insufficient at this time according to the APA's Resolution on Violent Video Games.


----------



## Ranger Psych (Mar 8, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Yeah, because the wind, recoil, temperature, breathing control are honed on those first-person shooter games....



Recoil, wind, breath control are all incorporated into ARMA, but ARMA is significantly harder to be proficient in/with than most FPS'es.


----------



## SaintKP (Mar 8, 2018)

Guess I missed the memo that I should run over people with my car, fly planes into buildings, buy a rifle an climb a water tower for target practice and go on hate filled murder rampages because I grew up playing games like GTA, AA, and DOOM . The instances where mass shooters claim they used video games as training or couldn't differentiate between fiction and reality were already mentally ill to begin with. A recreational hobby didn't force them to do the things they did. Not to mention you can learn more about tactics and firearms by simply going on Google...


Maybe if parents were more involved and watchful, their kid wouldn't think the things they do in virtual reality are applicable to real life.


----------



## Topkick (Mar 8, 2018)

I don't think video games and movies really have much to do with any of this. If you are fuckered up enough to allow video games or movies to cause you to commit a mass murder, something isn't right in the first place and something bad was bound to happen sooner or later. I have been watching violent movies all of my life and have never considered killing innocents.


----------



## DC (Mar 8, 2018)

Another diversion. Mental illness left untreated and/or diagnosed is the root cause. All other stimulation is ancillary to the abnormal mental condition.


----------



## policemedic (Mar 9, 2018)

DocIllinois said:


> The author's argument is that a potential mass shooter can "hone his craft" by playing virtual reality, first person shooter games.  How much honing really needs done by someone already bent on a mass shooting, who has access to guns that can fire in very rapid succession, toward defenseless and terrified targets confined to a small room or hallway?  I would suggest, not too much.
> 
> On whether this "honing" contributes to "improve... combat skills," I don't know of anything that supports the notion besides the author's reference to an article in The Guardian on a far right terrorist's court tesitmony, though I could be wrong on that.
> 
> On whether the "honing" is a contributing cause of committing acts of lethal violence, the research is insufficient at this time according to the APA's Resolution on Violent Video Games.



I'm not so sure honing is the right term.  I think desensitization is.



SaintKP said:


> Guess I missed the memo that I should run over people with my car, fly planes into buildings, buy a rifle an climb a water tower for target practice and go on hate filled murder rampages because I grew up playing games like GTA, AA, and DOOM . The instances where mass shooters claim they used video games as training or couldn't differentiate between fiction and reality were already mentally ill to begin with. A recreational hobby didn't force them to do the things they did. Not to mention you can learn more about tactics and firearms by simply going on Google...
> 
> 
> Maybe if parents were more involved and watchful, their kid wouldn't think the things they do in virtual reality are applicable to real life.



Parenting is a lost art, and in my view, the death of the nuclear family has much to do with some of the problems we see today.  Certainly there are single parents who do an absolutely excellent job raising their children--I know several.  But the lack of a supportive family structure can be a contributing factor to unacceptable behavior.



Topkick said:


> I don't think video games and movies really have much to do with any of this. If you are fuckered up enough to allow video games or movies to cause you to commit a mass murder, something isn't right in the first place and something bad was bound to happen sooner or later. I have been watching violent movies all of my life and have never considered killing innocents.



I don't think there is a causal relationship here.  I do think people tend to focus on the cause _du jour_--video games, in this case--and overlook the cumulative effects of the many, many other things that contribute to the problem.  Violent video games aren't responsible for mass shootings on their own, but may contribute to the action in susceptible populations.


----------



## BloodStripe (Mar 9, 2018)

756 Copycat Threats Reported Against Schools Since the Parkland Shooting

I know we are supposed to say something, but I'm at a loss for words other than one; castration.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Mar 9, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> 756 Copycat Threats Reported Against Schools Since the Parkland Shooting
> 
> I know we are supposed to say something, but I'm at a loss for words other than one; castration.


Thank the mainstream media for giving so much fame and attention to human garbage. The cucks in the mainstream media and their corporate owners, who monetize fear and loss, should hang with the shooter. Un-American garbage, the lot of them.


----------



## Devildoc (Mar 9, 2018)

policemedic said:


> I'm not so sure honing is the right term.  I think desensitization is.
> 
> Parenting is a lost art, and in my view, the death of the nuclear family has much to do with some of the problems we see today.  Certainly there are single parents who do an absolutely excellent job raising their children--I know several.  But the lack of a supportive family structure can be a contributing factor to unacceptable behavior.
> 
> I don't think there is a causal relationship here.  I do think people tend to focus on the cause _du jour_--video games, in this case--and overlook the cumulative effects of the many, many other things that contribute to the problem.  Violent video games aren't responsible for mass shootings on their own, but may contribute to the action in susceptible populations.



Agree.  With all of it.  Video games certainly aren't causal; there were bad people shooting good people well before video games came out.  I doubt Charles Whitman played Xbox.  I do think it is correlational, along with TV and movie violence, the 24 hour news cycle, and the like; and _all_ of it desensitizes it.

Regarding the family, we homeschool, we have six kids.  My wife and I have this talk frequently.  Anyone with half a brain can teach the ABCs and how to add, but it takes a strong family unit to teach character, coping skills, and critical thinking.  If parents are not on top of 'bad' behavior at the first sign of it, it becomes a growing and worsening problem very quickly.


----------



## DocIllinois (Mar 9, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Agree.  With all of it.  Video games certainly aren't causal; there were bad people shooting good people well before video games came out.  I doubt Charles Whitman played Xbox.  I do think it is correlational, along with TV and movie violence, the 24 hour news cycle, and the like; and _all_ of it desensitizes it.
> 
> Regarding the family, we homeschool, we have six kids.  My wife and I have this talk frequently.  Anyone with half a brain can teach the ABCs and how to add, but it takes a strong family unit to teach character, coping skills, and critical thinking.  If parents are not on top of 'bad' behavior at the first sign of it, it becomes a growing and worsening problem very quickly.



Though I am in favor of gun control, I agree with assessments here that this isn't a "one cause" issue, and an absence of built in values of right and wrong is a big one.

Many children in our society become ugly and even furious when anyone dares question their behavior, as thought it were an infringement on their very rights, or a robbing of birth right.  Parents not setting and then enforcing limits on acceptable behavior, and going through the necessary battles of will to service those limits, creates adults who will place a low value on respecting he life and rights of others, IMHO.  Their adult lives are usually a long process of continuing to test those behavioral limits with much heavier consequences and potential costs to their society.

$.02


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 9, 2018)

Just goes to show it's not just schools, hostage situation in a veterans' home in Yountville, CA.

WATCH LIVE: Guman takes hostages at Yountville veterans home


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 9, 2018)

Just found this.  Dr. Jordan Peterson has an excellent take on these shootings.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 15, 2018)

Broward Deputy Scot Peterson seen standing outside during Florida school shooting in new video

I don't know what to say...


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 15, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> Broward Deputy Scot Peterson seen standing outside during Florida school shooting in new video
> 
> I don't know what to say...



Did you watch the video? 
Do they show kids lying around?

I would like to see for my self Peterson standing around, but I have no interest in seeing the victims if they are part of it.


----------



## DocIllinois (Mar 15, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Did you watch the video?
> Do they show kids lying around?
> 
> I would like to see for my self Peterson standing around, but I have no interest in seeing the victims if they are part of it.




I watched the video all the way through.  The students are very heavily pixelated.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 15, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Did you watch the video?
> Do they show kids lying around?
> 
> I would like to see for my self Peterson standing around, but I have no interest in seeing the victims if they are part of it.



I did not watch the whole thing as I was at work.


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 15, 2018)

I watched a little bit of it.  Enough to see that Scot Peterson is indeed a coward and a liar.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 15, 2018)

He has to live with what he failed to do. I hope the memories of that day haunt him for the remainder of his time on earth and his eternal time in hell. 

I have my own theories on why he acted the way he did that I will keep to myself.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 15, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> I have my own theories on why he acted the way he did that I will keep to myself


Why?


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 15, 2018)

I don't want the NSA up my ass


----------



## amlove21 (Mar 18, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> Broward Deputy Scot Peterson seen standing outside during Florida school shooting in new video
> I don't know what to say...





Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> He has to live with what he failed to do. I hope the memories of that day haunt him for the remainder of his time on earth and his eternal time in hell.
> 
> I have my own theories on why he acted the way he did that I will keep to myself.





Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> I don't want the NSA up my ass




Those are some pretty pointed accusations to end with such a crazy backtrack. You damn the guy to hell, said you had and idea why he acted like he did and then stopped short because of the NSA?

Shoot your shot fella. If you want to make the false flag argument, go ahead. But at least follow through, you know?


----------



## Marine0311 (Mar 18, 2018)

Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 said:


> I don't want the NSA up my ass



Let's hear it.


----------



## Topkick (Mar 18, 2018)

amlove21 said:


> If you want to make the false flag argument, go ahead.




Agree. I'd like to hear it, as you certainly wouldn't be the first and only to theorize.


----------



## Topkick (Mar 18, 2018)

My problem with most conspiracy theories is the amount of people involved. For political reasons, its often easy to see why a conspiracy could take place but the amount of hush-hush involved would be astronomical and eventually somebody would crack. One example in this case; If I'm Peterson, as soon as you label me a coward I'm singing like a bird.


----------



## Grunt (Mar 18, 2018)

I'm going with the "I was too scared to go in, Boss" theory!


----------



## Topkick (Mar 18, 2018)

Agoge said:


> I'm going with the "I was too scared to go in, Boss" theory!



Yep. I'd add shorttimer's syndrome as well. He was about to retire.


----------



## Marine0311 (Mar 18, 2018)

Topkick said:


> My problem with most conspiracy theories is the amount of people involved. For political reasons, its often easy to see why a conspiracy could take place but the amount of hush-hush involved would be astronomical and eventually somebody would crack. One example in this case; If I'm Peterson, as soon as you label me a coward I'm singing like a bird.



Someone off topic I live around the are of Sandy Hook. Recently I went to a local bar and a man next to me and I talked about this shooting and then Sandy Hook He claimed SH was a conspiracy, tin foil hat, child actors, etc. Point by point with facts, evidence and Google Fu I took him down and proved everything he said was wrong.  People like that cause my blood to boil.


----------



## Grunt (Mar 18, 2018)

Topkick said:


> Yep. I'd add shorttimer's syndrome as well. He was about to retire.



I suspect that helped fuel the lack of initiative on his part with locating, closing with, and destroying the enemy....


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 18, 2018)

Marine0311 said:


> Someone off topic I live around the are of Sandy Hook. Recently I went to a local bar and a man next to me and I talked about this shooting and then Sandy Hook He claimed SH was a conspiracy, tin foil hat, child actors, etc. Point by point with facts, evidence and Google Fu I took him down and proved everything he said was wrong.  People like that cause my blood to boil.



There's no telling which way that sent him in his spin cycle though. I do wish I had your energy. Seriously. 
I'm running on queefs. No fucks left to give, just sounds and smells.



Wait... Is. Is that a boner..?


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 18, 2018)

Marine0311 said:


> Someone off topic I live around the are of Sandy Hook. Recently I went to a local bar and a man next to me and I talked about this shooting and then Sandy Hook He claimed SH was a conspiracy, tin foil hat, child actors, etc. Point by point with facts, evidence and Google Fu I took him down and proved everything he said was wrong.  People like that cause my blood to boil.



These are the fucking people I hate the most.  "Here's my bullshit internet theory, now prove me wrong!"


----------



## Topkick (Mar 18, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> These are the fucking people I hate the most.  "Here's my bullshit internet theory, now prove me wrong!"


Amazing that with all of these conspiracies, none ever seem to come to light...


----------



## Marine0311 (Mar 18, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> These are the fucking people I hate the most.  "Here's my bullshit internet theory, now prove me wrong!"



This wasn't the first time since SH and since I live around that area when something like a mass shooting happens it brings some of the nutjobs out and won't be the last. I seem to run into this every so often.


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 18, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> These are the fucking people I hate the most.  "Here's my bullshit internet theory, now prove me wrong!"



And yet, here you are, moderating. Are you warm?


----------



## DocIllinois (Mar 18, 2018)

Frank S. said:


> And yet, here you are, moderating. Are you warm?



Shifty burdens - they only need to be a job for one side.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 18, 2018)

Frank S. said:


> And yet, here you are, moderating. Are you warm?


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 19, 2018)

Well now, this is from NPR... 

Despite Heightened Fear Of School Shootings, It's Not A Growing Epidemic


----------



## Grunt (Mar 19, 2018)

Homicides throughout Chicago are epidemic....

Deaths by DWI clowns are epidemic....

School shootings...not so much....


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 19, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


>



Give it, oh, six months.


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 19, 2018)

Back to the Florida school shooting, I will be interested to cycle back to it once more info comes to light.
As usual, I don't think there are just one or two points of failure. Bad as the video showing the Deputy is, it also masks other issues that may not be of record.


----------



## policemedic (Mar 19, 2018)

Frank S. said:


> Back to the Florida school shooting, I will be interested to cycle back to it once more info comes to light.
> As usual, I don't think there are just one or two points of failure. Bad as the video showing the Deputy is, it also masks other issues that may not be of record.



Nailed it.


----------



## Etype (Mar 19, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> Just found this.  Dr. Jordan Peterson has an excellent take on these shootings.


Jordan Peterson tells a lot of unpopular truths that most people aren't willing to hear.

His book is wonderful; everyone should read it, many people NEED to read it -although the ones who need it most are the ones least likely to do so.


----------



## Marine0311 (Mar 19, 2018)

Etype said:


> Jordan Peterson tells a lot of unpopular truths that most people aren't willing to hear.
> 
> His book is wonderful; everyone should read it, many people NEED to read it -although the ones who need it most are the ones least likely to do so.



Funny you should say tbat. I just found out about him and I am listening to everything I can find.


----------



## Isiah6:8 (Mar 19, 2018)

Marine0311 said:


> Funny you should say tbat. I just found out about him and I am listening to everything I can find.



He has a lot on his own youtube channel, for some shorter stuff his two Joe Rogan podcasts are pretty solid.  I am listening through the religious series right now.  Great stuff


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 19, 2018)

Isiah6:8 said:


> He has a lot on his own youtube channel, for some shorter stuff his two Joe Rogan podcasts are pretty solid.  I am listening through the religious series right now.  Great stuff



He's also a regular on Lowder with Crowder podcast.


----------



## Isiah6:8 (Mar 19, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> He's also a regular on Lowder with Crowder podcast.



I will have to check out some of those, didn't realize that.  Thanks!


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 19, 2018)

I think I love this young lady -





__ https://www.facebook.com/IJRRed/posts/10156650504692971


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 19, 2018)

This seems sort of newsie.  I wonder if this has anything to do with the school shooting or if it is just another day in Broward County? 
Woman intentionally crashed into Pembroke Park BSO station, officials say



> Deputies are investigating after a woman intentionally crashed her car into a Broward Sheriff’s Office station in Pembroke Park.
> Deputies said the woman deliberately drove into the Pembroke Park/West Park Broward Sheriff’s Office, located at 3201 W Hallandale Beach Blvd. just after 11:30 a.m. Monday.
> However, officials said, her motive remains unknown.
> Ben Mendez, who was working inside the station said the woman was engulfed in flames inside the vehicle.
> ...


----------



## Etype (Mar 19, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> I think I love this young lady -
> 
> 
> 
> ...


I'm glad to see someone bucking the narrative and breaking from the group think. I think it's worth saying that people have been bullied for decades and probably centuries, only recently has mass murder become a response.


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 19, 2018)

Chopstick said:


> This seems sort of newsie.  I wonder if this has anything to do with the school shooting or if it is just another day in Broward County?
> Woman intentionally crashed into Pembroke Park BSO station, officials say



Maybe she aimed to ram a goat. Florida style, not Afghan style.


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 20, 2018)

Frank S. said:


> Maybe she aimed to ram a goat. Florida style, not Afghan style.


A goat?


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 20, 2018)

Whoa.  Just ran across this while drinking my coffee.  Now my suspicious mind is wondering if the brother is some type of accomplice? I thought he was in some type of mental facility?   "Surpassed all locked doors and gates".  $25.00 bond.  Interesting vs alarming.

Brother Of Confessed School Shooter Arrested For Trespassing At Stoneman Douglas



> The brother of confessed school shooter Nikolas Cruz was taken into custody Monday afternoon.
> 18-year-old Zachary Cruz was arrested at 4:30 p.m. for trespassing at Stoneman Douglas.
> The arrest report states that Cruz received “prior warnings by school officials to refrain from entering the school campus.”
> Cruz was riding his skateboard around the school campus and “surpassed all locked doors and gates,” per the report.
> ...


----------



## Devildoc (Mar 20, 2018)

And another one....

Shooting at Great Mills High School in Maryland, school confirms

It cannot be with an most types of AR or with a gun with a mag of > 10 rounds because those are illegal.


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 20, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> And another one....
> 
> Shooting at Great Mills High School in Maryland, school confirms
> 
> It cannot be with an most types of AR or with a gun with a mag of > 10 rounds because those are illegal.



I think in this latest incident, the SRO who engaged and killed the shooter was former SWAT. I'll try to find a link.
ETA here's one.
Maryland school shooter shot dead by hero armed school officer – 2 students injured | American Military News


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 20, 2018)

Etype said:


> Jordan Peterson tells a lot of unpopular truths that most people aren't willing to hear.
> 
> His book is wonderful; everyone should read it, many people NEED to read it -although the ones who need it most are the ones least likely to do so.



He has several interesting videos on YouTube relating to psychometrics, pertinent to other threads.


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 20, 2018)

You can't make this stuff up.  This seems to be the sequel to my post about Cruz's brother being at the school.  Unbelievable. 

Deputy suspended accused of sleeping on duty at Stoneman Douglas



> *PARKLAND, Fla.* - A Broward County sheriff's deputy has been suspended after he was caught sleeping in a patrol car outside Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, authorities said.
> Veda Coleman-Wright, a spokeswoman for the Broward County Sheriff's Office, said Deputy Moises Carotti was suspended with pay, pending an internal affairs investigation.
> Coleman-Wright said just after 5 p.m. Monday a student told another deputy on the campus that Carotti was asleep in his marked patrol car near the 1200 building, the site of the mass shooting that left 17 people dead last month.
> The deputy woke Carotti and informed his superiors, Coleman-Wright said. Another deputy was sent to replace Carotti, she said.
> ...


----------



## Topkick (Mar 20, 2018)

Chopstick said:


> You can't make this stuff up.  This seems to be the sequel to my post about Cruz's brother being at the school.  Unbelievable.
> 
> Deputy suspended accused of sleeping on duty at Stoneman Douglas



If this wasn't such a serious time, the Broward CO. Sheriff's Department would make a good sitcom/ reality show. Just wow.


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 20, 2018)

Topkick said:


> If this wasn't such a serious time, the Broward CO. Sheriff's Department would make a good sitcom/ reality show. Just wow.


You know, he is lucky the brother did not "finish the job".  I am still sitting here shaking my head.


----------



## Topkick (Mar 20, 2018)

Two Douglas students arrested for taking knives to school; another made threats, BSO says

This school is a busy place.


----------



## Kaldak (Mar 20, 2018)

Topkick said:


> Two Douglas students arrested for taking knives to school; another made threats, BSO says
> 
> Will the students demand Knife control?



Maybe background checks.

Seriously though, would it be that tough to put in metal detectors? I know of schools in Chicago that have them.


----------



## Topkick (Mar 20, 2018)

I agree. Minimize entrances and exits and put metal detectors and armed vets in place. All other doors should be badged in. Arm the willing and trained teachers.


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 20, 2018)

Kaldak said:


> Maybe background checks.
> 
> Seriously though, would it be that tough to put in metal detectors? I know of schools in Chicago that have them.



My high school in Calgary in the 90's had metal detectors and 2 armed officers.  Safe old Canada.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 21, 2018)

Topkick said:


> Two Douglas students arrested for taking knives to school; another made threats, BSO says
> 
> This school is a busy place.


I can't seem to find it right now, but I had read somewhere that the Deputy Peterson had made a deal with the principal to stop arresting students so that their arrest rate would go down.  Apparently it was pretty high.


----------



## DC (Mar 21, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> I can't seem to find it right now, but I had read somewhere that the Deputy Peterson had made a deal with the principal to stop arresting students so that their arrest rate would go down.  Apparently it was pretty high.



The Connection Between the Parkland Shooting and Obama Administration Policies


----------



## Topkick (Mar 22, 2018)

DC said:


> The Connection Between the Parkland Shooting and Obama Administration Policies


A big problem in modern society. No repercussion. Now, if you touch the stove you don't always get burned. IMO.


----------



## Box (Mar 22, 2018)

In our "modern" society, when someone DOES get burned, it is always someone else's fault.   Oh, you burned your hand?
...blame the Russians
or the Chinese
or married women
or men
or James Comey
or the patriarchy
or misogyny 
or race
or Facebook

Regardless of the cause of the burn, as a society, we no longer want to be held accountable for our choices.


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 23, 2018)

So the news is that David Hogg is not wild about what the government has planned for him and his classmates after spring break.  
Clear backpacks only as well as mandatory student ID tags.    This is not the "government oversight" he was looking for I suppose. 
Marjory Stoneman Douglas students to get 'clear backpacks' as safety measure



> Students who survived the Valentine's Day shooting at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, will have to get used to new security measures when they return from spring break next week — including clear backpacks and ID badges that must be worn at all times.





> “I know having clear backpacks will help with security, but now all my privacy will be gone,” Lizzie McNichol wrote on Twitter. “I wish it didn’t come to this.”
> Lauren Hogg, a freshman at the high school and sister of high-profile senior David Hogg, said she “appreciate[d] the attempt” but would prefer gun reform “than a clear backpack.”


----------



## Devildoc (Mar 23, 2018)

Chopstick said:


> So the news is that David Hogg is not wild about what the government has planned for him and his classmates after spring break.
> Clear backpacks only as well as mandatory student ID tags.    This is not the "government oversight" he was looking for I suppose.
> Marjory Stoneman Douglas students to get 'clear backpacks' as safety measure



Those semi-pubescent ne'er-do-wells had no idea what they were doing, no idea the inertia they created, and never understood that what they were doing created consequences they never intended.

Do they note the irony that they're bitching about losing their civil rights after bitching about taking away civil rights?


----------



## DC (Mar 23, 2018)

Chopstick said:


> So the news is that David Hogg is not wild about what the government has planned for him and his classmates after spring break.
> Clear backpacks only as well as mandatory student ID tags.    This is not the "government oversight" he was looking for I suppose.
> Marjory Stoneman Douglas students to get 'clear backpacks' as safety measure


Bet his classmates love his adult driven agenda now.


----------



## DC (Mar 23, 2018)

Devildoc said:


> Those semi-pubescent ne'er-do-wells had no idea what they were doing, no idea the inertia they created, and never understood that what they were doing created consequences they never intended.
> 
> Do they note the irony that they're bitching about losing their civil rights after bitching about taking away civil rights?


Doubt Hogg and his posse have even read or understand the Constitution.


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 23, 2018)

DC said:


> Doubt Hogg and his posse have even read or understand the Constitution.


Have you seen his potty mouth rant on youtube?  It seems as fast as someone reposts it, youtube takes it down.  Sorry(not sorry) but someone is going to wipe that petulant look off of his face one of these days.  BAN FISTS!


----------



## medicchick (Mar 23, 2018)

We had to have clear backpacks and visible ID cards in high school in the late 90's.  Boohoo...lol


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 23, 2018)

Right when I left High School, 12 years ago...shit I feel old.  They went to a ID card on a lanyard system rather than having it in your wallet.  They also installed a perimeter fence.  Mr. Hogg apparently doesn't understand that the school he attends is full of hoodlums.


----------



## Devildoc (Mar 23, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Right when I left High School, 12 years ago...shit I feel old.....



12 years, lol....

I'm 30+ out.  Even then in the 80s we had a deputy (before they were called school resource officers) in our HS, and we also kept hunting rifles in our vehicles during hunting season.


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 23, 2018)

Earlier in the thread @DC had posts hinting at contingency costs, which I agree with.

This, I can't even.. 
This school district’s plan to stop shooters: Arming students with a bucket of rocks


----------



## Gunz (Mar 23, 2018)

I think they ought limit the capacity of 5-gallon buckets of river rocks to 10 rocks per student.

This is exactly the kind of Larry Lightbulb idea that led to the coining of the phrase "hare-brained." And the person who thought it up is...cough...an "educator."

Schools can be made much more secure but it will cost taxpayer money and student inconvenience. Trying to protect students from whackjobs and evil cunts by blaming the NRA or having a protest march or putting buckets of rocks 🤣in the classroom...pointless.


----------



## Box (Mar 23, 2018)

When you volunteer to surrender your liberties in exchange for the illusion of safety and security, you don't get to choose e taken away...
...they should have stuck to eating soap or attempting the cinnamon challenge and left politics to the grown ups

Sorry - but children should be seen and not heard.


----------



## Topkick (Mar 23, 2018)

Some will disagree, but I agree that children have no say in adult matters. That's a problem today. Sure, they have a right to express their pain after their school gets shot up, but adults have to make adult decisions not based on children's emotions.


----------



## Frank S. (Mar 23, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> School shootings are part of our culture now, they just are.
> 
> I would like to discuss what is that we as parents can actually do to try and protect our kids at school.



I think we've gone from discussing ideas and events to discussing people. And young ones, at that.
As with all multi page threads, I go back to the original posts to see if I can come up with something new, like the gun control thread. I always likened children to words in that once you release them into the world they're no longer yours. Maybe the best you can do is give them something to live for.


----------



## Topkick (Mar 23, 2018)

Frank S. said:


> I think we've gone from discussing ideas and events to discussing people. And young ones, at that.
> As with all multi page threads, I go back to the original posts to see if I can come up with something new, like the gun control thread. I always likened children to words in that once you release them into the world they're no longer yours. Maybe the best you can do is give them something to live for.


I agree. But based on @Ooh-Rah original post, society has let the children have a say in what we can do better. I don't agree with that. They are influenced by liberal educators who do not use ration to provide solutions to safer schools.


----------



## Box (Mar 23, 2018)

So, Dr. David Helsel  says of his bucket full of rocks idea, "_If an armed intruder attempts to gain entrance into any of our classrooms, they will face a classroom full students armed with rocks and they will be stoned_,”

I think Helsel is already stoned.  I wonder if he has been watching YouTube videos on how to make prison hooch and homemade meth


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 24, 2018)

I just cant help myself.  They don't even see the irony...

As an aside, 19 y/o and in HS?     I guess my parents started me in kindergarten early.  I graduated HS at 17 so this seems strange to me.  I was working in my field at 19 and planning my wedding at that age.    BTW @Devildoc I too remember student's pick up trucks in the school parking lot with rifles on the gun rack inside.  We had a rifle team, even.  No one ever got shot or even a threat of such.  But then again I went to HS in the dark ages.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Mar 24, 2018)

@Chopstick 
Re: circled area above. 

Irony, party of one.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Mar 24, 2018)

We had a few 19 yr olds in my graduating class, but they turned 19 like right before graduation.


----------



## DC (Mar 25, 2018)

Maybe ban criminals. Use a gun you die.


----------



## SaintKP (Mar 25, 2018)

19 here, but I was an absolute jackass and pissed away what would have been my last two (or 3?) years of HS.



Topkick said:


> I agree. But based on @Ooh-Rah original post, society has let the children have a say in what we can do better. I don't agree with that. They are influenced by liberal educators who do not use ration to provide solutions to safer schools.




So when is the cut off for when people no longer have the emotional and mental depth of a puddle? For when they can join in for political discourse and offer "rational and logical solutions"? Is it 18? 21? 26? Or is it when they stand for the same ideas as us on this site?

I may not agree with them or their viewpoints but just like you and me they have a right to say them. Regardless of whatever influence they may have. That's what makes America great, the fact that we have the right to carry arms and defend ourselves, and the fact that all opinions are welcome and not silenced like many of the "third world shitholes" out there.


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 25, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> 19 here, but I was an absolute jackass and pissed away what would have been my last two (or 3?) years of HS.
> 
> 
> 
> ...



You would be considered an "adult" but you admitted to wasting away the past few years.  If it wasn't the "support", read direction, from the Democrat's with an agenda; all these kids would be back to eating Tide pods.  So why should a bunch of privileged 16 year olds have a voice on a subject that requires more political will than most politicians have.  Most of the time they can't even agree enough to approve a budget.  How do you expect them to reopen the Constitution and rewrite the basic fabric of America?


----------



## Topkick (Mar 25, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> I may not agree with them or their viewpoints but just like you and me they have a right to say them.


In post #370 I did imply that they have the right to speak, but IMO there are many obvious reasons why they should have no say in the decision making process, such as a combination of the fact that the brain is still developing and that they don't have any life experience. That's enough for me.


----------



## Topkick (Mar 25, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> Or is it when they stand for the same ideas as us on this site?



No. We don't all have the same ideas. There are many differing views from members of this site, yet I respect most of them simply because of the amount of life experience the members do have.


----------



## DC (Mar 25, 2018)

Topkick said:


> In post #370 I did imply that they have the right to speak, but IMO there are many obvious reasons why they should have no say in the decision making process, such as a combination of the fact that the brain is still developing and that they don't have any life experience. That's enough for me.


I don’t think they have any say. They are led to believe that they do by the communist agenda(chinas infil of our education system). When nothing happens they disappear.


----------



## SaintKP (Mar 25, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> You would be considered an "adult" but you admitted to wasting away the past few years.



I don't think I follow, are you saying because I screwed my chances at a good college due to me not knowing how to handle my father passing and since learning from my mistake, discredits me in some way? If I misunderstood you please correct me.



RackMaster said:


> If it wasn't the "support", read direction, from the Democrat's with an agenda; all these kids would be back to eating Tide pods.



So we're going to take the vocal few that MSM love to plaster over the network and make blanket generalizations? I understand where you're coming from though.



RackMaster said:


> So why should a bunch of privileged 16 year olds have a voice on a subject that requires more political will than most politicians have. Most of the time they can't even agree enough to approve a budget. How do you expect them to reopen the Constitution and rewrite the basic fabric of America?



I'm not saying that what "they" want should be implemented, all I'm saying is they have a right to be at the table and whether we like it or not they're the ones going to be running the country in about 15-20 years. But like @Topkick says in post #380, they will most likely change their position once they start educating themselves. Hell, I know I've changed my stance dramatically since I was in HS.  Also, is it maybe because they have more political will than the politicians we have in office currently? The same politicians who get elected on empty promises and change their platform for the highest bidder or whatever keeps them in office.



Topkick said:


> In post #370 I did imply that they have the right to speak, but IMO there are many obvious reasons why they should have no say in the decision making process, such as a combination of the fact that the brain is still developing and that they don't have any life experience. That's enough for me.



But is it that much of a developmental process that they're incapable of critical thinking? Passionate and reactionary sure, but that's part of being young. I don't want what they want to occur but I feel like if we start discrediting and trying to shut out groups of people because we feel differently it leads to a further divide than we already have. 



Topkick said:


> No. We don't all have the same ideas. There are many differing views from members of this site, yet I respect most of them simply because of the amount of life experience the members do have.



Thank you for calling me on this, it was extremely poor wording on my part and I'm sorry. In my mind at the time it made sense however looking back it was ignorant. I think I was trying to say that because they're wanting to ban guns completely a lot of people are being dismissive completely, but it came out completely wrong.


----------



## Topkick (Mar 25, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> trying to shut out groups of people because we feel differently



This really has nothing to do with it. Everyone gets to express their view when they are old enough to vote. Until then, it doesn't matter which group you are in.


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 25, 2018)

@SaintKP I didn't intend to offend you but you admitted to being immature as a child.  You've since learned from it and are an "adult" now.  That should be enough to understand that at 16 you are not mature enough to know what can be rationally done. But even at 19, your brain is still developing...


----------



## SaintKP (Mar 25, 2018)

@RackMaster You're fine, I was the one who jumped to conclusions. I agree with you and @Topkick, it takes time to fully mature and figure out who you are and what you stand for, christ I'm 23 and I'm still trying to figure it all out. 

I hold the protesters in the same way I hold people like Alex Jones, or "news" sites like Salon and Breitbart in the same regard. I don't agree with them whatsoever but I still feel like they should be allowed to participate in political discourse.

I don't know, it's hard trying to defend something you don't agree with/play devil's advocate.


----------



## Topkick (Mar 25, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> they will most likely change their position once they start educating themselves. Hell, I know I've changed my stance dramatically since I was in HS.



You validated my point. This statement is exactly why kids should have NO say in the decision making process. I am not saying we should just tell kids to "shut up and go away." Parents should certainly educate their kids by having discussions. This is called parenting...something, IMO, we are lacking in this country. There is so much anti- American rhetoric in the classrooms of America today and kids often only hear the views of their liberal educators, whom themselves live an idealistic life viewed from only a textbook.


----------



## RackMaster (Mar 25, 2018)

@SaintKP everyone has the right to their own opinion and to speak their minds.  Now listening to them is a different story.


----------



## Chopstick (Mar 25, 2018)

RackMaster said:


> @SaintKP everyone has the right to their own opinion and to speak their minds.  Now listening to them is a different story.


True that, but I find that I do take away from these threads new viewpoints which is a very good thing.


----------



## Topkick (Mar 25, 2018)

@SaintKP There is absolutely nothing wrong with anything you have posted. You are a young person yourself and I can appreciate your point of view based on that.


----------



## Etype (Mar 25, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> I'm not saying that what "they" want should be implemented, all I'm saying is they have a right to be at the table and whether we like it or not they're the ones going to be running the country in about 15-20 years. .


What is this proverbial table that they supposedly have a right to sit at? I argue that it doesn't exist.

No, they won't be running the country. If anything, these kids in question are a small non-representative sample of who will be running it.


----------



## Etype (Mar 25, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> @RackMaster You're fine, I was the one who jumped to conclusions. I agree with you and @Topkick, it takes time to fully mature and figure out who you are and what you stand for, christ I'm 23 and I'm still trying to figure it all out.
> 
> I hold the protesters in the same way I hold people like Alex Jones, or "news" sites like Salon and Breitbart in the same regard. I don't agree with them whatsoever but I still feel like they should be allowed to participate in political discourse.
> 
> I don't know, it's hard trying to defend something you don't agree with/play devil's advocate.


Alex Jones??? How many listeners does he have? 7? 8? Any "news" source who gives Alex Jones serious attention, positive or negative, should be ignored.


----------



## Marine0311 (Mar 25, 2018)

Alex Jones is a tool bag of the highest degree.


----------



## Etype (Mar 25, 2018)

Marine0311 said:


> Alex Jones is a tool bag of the highest degree.


Any day now, Alex Jones may annoince that he's apolitical and that he was just having fun at everyone else's expense. Then, he's going to retire to a life of fly fishing.


----------



## 256 (Mar 25, 2018)

The same kids, and their parents were in the State Building (FL) yelling “no justice, no peace.” So if you don’t get what you want you’ll commit violence? The kid that shot up the school probably felt he didn’t get the attention he wanted, either. Everyone understands there’s an issue, unless you’re being attention to a workable solution take your sign and sit down.


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## 256 (Mar 25, 2018)

Adding to my above comment; it’s hard to come up with a solution, even harder still to implement that solution. Arming the teachers was my solution, you may agree or disagree. Getting it implemented has been a challenge. Our youth stands up and says, “look at this problem, someone needs to do something.” Which results in all kinds of praises for doing nothing. It’s the same as getting a trophy for 4th place...


----------



## Chontair (Mar 25, 2018)

I think we as American people need to look at the root of the issue. 

When it boils down this issue has absolutely jack shit to do with guns and everything to do with the school administration and the kids. Since everyone is so god damn ready to go gungho about gun control why don't they put some of that energy into looking after their class mates instead. There is one way these shootings can be avoided and it has nothing to do with taking away or restricting firearms and has everything to do with standing up for those who are struggling.


----------



## SaintKP (Mar 25, 2018)

Etype said:


> What is this proverbial table that they supposedly have a right to sit at? I argue that it doesn't exist.
> 
> No, they won't be running the country. If anything, these kids in question are a small non-representative sample of who will be running it.



In regards to them running things I hope you're right.



Etype said:


> Alex Jones??? How many listeners does he have? 7? 8? Any "news" source who gives Alex Jones serious attention, positive or negative, should be ignored.



I'm willing to bet there are people out their who take him seriously regardless of how much of a complete and utter bag of moldy dicks he is. Considering the fact that we had a portion of the population believe with sincerity that #44 was a Muslim terrorist planted by foreign actors. All bets are off.


----------



## Etype (Mar 26, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> In regards to them running things I hope you're right.
> 
> 
> 
> I'm willing to bet there are people out their who take him seriously regardless of how much of a complete and utter bag of moldy dicks he is. Considering the fact that we had a portion of the population believe with sincerity that #44 was a Muslim terrorist planted by foreign actors. All bets are off.


We have a much more substantial portion who denies the horrors of socialism.

Alex Jones, 'Obama was a Muslim,' etc. are fear mongering arguments. Move on and free your mind.


----------



## Box (Mar 26, 2018)

The right or privilege of voting; also known as political franchise is the constitutionally granted right that serves as the "cut-off for when people no longer have the emotional and mental depth of a puddle".  
21 is the age when people are constitutionally granted the right to join in the political discourse for "rational and logical solutions"

Admittedly, there are 12 year olds that have better sense than some of the 30 year olds in our society.  
It's also a fact that the same ones demanding that someone else's gun rights be taken away (a Bill of ?Rights item) are upset that they might be made to carry a clear back pack (packages carried into public spaces is NOT addressed in the bill of rights)

It interesting to hear what young people have to say.  It is beneficial that elected representatives say aware of the entire spectrum of the collective society we all share.

Its also exactly correct to paint ALL soap eating minors with the same broad brush being used to paint ALL gun owners.


----------



## SaintKP (Mar 26, 2018)

Etype said:


> We have a much more substantial portion who denies the horrors of socialism.
> 
> Alex Jones, 'Obama was a Muslim,' etc. are fear mongering arguments. Move on and free your mind.



Trust me I know, I've had coworkers and in the past class mates talk about how they wished we would adopt a more socialistic style or even go all in and become communist. When asked about events such as Holodomor, the atrocities committed by the Khemir Rouge, the questionable human rights actions of PRC and the quality of life in Cuba. I've been met with "Oh it's not real Communism/Socialism" or the classic "Capitalism is worse". 

I understand that there is a very large (relatively speaking) and vocal group who believe that the Gulag Archipelago isn't fact and should serve as a book of warning but is instead filled with lies and propaganda. 

Both sides are a cancer to this country and either try to propagate their ideology subvertly in universities or fear monger those who refuse to educate themselves and get information from a wide range of sources. Sorry for not specifically including those moonstruck by the idea of Che Guevera.


----------



## Hillclimb (Mar 26, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> Khemir Rouge, the questionable human rights actions of PRC and the quality of life in Cuba. I've been met with "Oh it's not real Communism/Socialism" or the classic "Capitalism is worse".



Pretty typical response I get as well(and my mother was a slave during the Khmer Rouge reign). Went from a prestigious family, to rice field slaves, to fleeing for the border through mine fields. Just shows you how powerful a stupid idea can be behind the masses, that they omit real life anecdotes.

Anyways.

Found an interesting article that essentially says we don't know shit about who is likely to take a weapon to a public place and commit a mass shooting. The major theories (mental illness, psychopathy, psychosis, trauma) lack reliable data. When researchers (criminologists or sociologists) have looked at available data, they find that the majority of people who would fit in any of those categories simply don't shoot people. I still argue that there are still a lot of warning signs and indicators that are easily identified, but there is a lot of other good data in that article as well, such as data that suggests mass shootings are not historically the worst they've been (based off statistics per 100k). But the media and professors are doing a great job at causing mass hysteria and misinformation 

Why science still can’t pinpoint a mass shooter in the making


----------



## DC (Mar 26, 2018)

Here’s a thought. Look at shit parenting. Probably find a broad brush of candidates.


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Mar 29, 2018)

Parkland suspect Nikolas Cruz showered with fan mail, donations: report

Looks like he's developing a cult following. I am beginnig to think I will never understand people...


----------



## Gunz (Mar 29, 2018)

How many people on earth, 7-billion + ...?  I figure at least 3-billion have a couple of screws loose.


----------



## Devildoc (Mar 29, 2018)

The law of averages...most people are average, struggling to stay between the lines; some truly have their shit together; but then, there's the deviant, truly fucked up people who make news....


----------



## ThunderHorse (Apr 2, 2018)

Sweet...Fox News host Laura Ingraham goes on vacation as more advertisers dump her over Parkland tweet

I wish this kid would go away.  But that was dumb on her part.


----------



## SaintKP (Apr 2, 2018)

I may not like his platform and think he's a bit of a tool, but I feel no sympathy for her.

Classic case of chat shit, get hit.


----------



## Marauder06 (Apr 2, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> I may not like his platform and think he's a bit of a tool, but I feel no sympathy for her.
> 
> Classic case of chat shit, get hit.



That's an interesting perspective, given what she said:

“David Hogg Rejected By Four Colleges To Which He Applied and whines about it. (Dinged by UCLA with a 4.1 GPA [grade point average]... totally predictable given acceptance rates.)” 

...especially in the context of what he's been saying about gun owners, the NRA, and adults in general.  In this case I think your last sentence applies more to him, than to her.


----------



## AWP (Apr 2, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> Classic case of chat shit, get hit.



I approve this sound bite.


----------



## SaintKP (Apr 2, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> That's an interesting perspective, given what she said:
> 
> “David Hogg Rejected By Four Colleges To Which He Applied and whines about it. (Dinged by UCLA with a 4.1 GPA [grade point average]... totally predictable given acceptance rates.)”
> 
> ...especially in the context of what he's been saying about gun owners, the NRA, and adults in general.  In this case I think your last sentence applies more to him, than to her.




I'm not excusing his actions nor do I support or agree with them, I was fine with him not making it to UC -. 

Both received their weekly installments of karma.


----------



## racing_kitty (Apr 2, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Sweet...Fox News host Laura Ingraham goes on vacation as more advertisers dump her over Parkland tweet
> 
> I wish this kid would go away.  But that was dumb on her part.



She’s Roman Catholic, and definitely not of the Jesuit subset. Her going on vacation during Holy Week was not going to be stopped by anything.


----------



## Topkick (Apr 2, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> I'm not excusing his actions nor do I support or agree with them, I was fine with him not making it to UC -.
> 
> Both received their weekly installments of karma.



I am not really sure what this hoopla is all about. I don't feel sorry for that kid and I don't think what Ingraham said was a big deal. The kid IS a whiney lil' Beeotch, IMO. Once again, the leftist media can say anything they want as they continue to look for ways to flush conservative careers down the toilet.


----------



## SaintKP (Apr 2, 2018)

Topkick said:


> I am not really sure what this hoopla is all about. I don't feel sorry for that kid and I don't think what Ingraham said was a big deal. The kid IS a whiney lil' Beeotch, IMO. Once again, the leftist media can say anything they want as they continue to look for ways to flush conservative careers down the toilet.



I don't see it either, in my eyes they both played stupid games and both won stupid prizes.


----------



## Grunt (Apr 3, 2018)

He ought to be in school where it's his place to be at this time in his life rather than acting like he is the savior of the world when he is just a kid.

Then, when it's actually time for him to have to live in the "adult" world, he will be complaining that he was thrust into the limelight and can't get a good job.

I really think he is a tool of the highest order and needs to shut up.

As to Ingraham, I really don't care what she said or says. If it had been a liberal outlet, there would be no issues. Fair is fair....


----------



## Box (Apr 3, 2018)

He has a career as an anti-right contributor on Morning-Joe if he plays his cards right.


----------



## Poccington (Apr 3, 2018)

David Hogg has an ego which is not even remotely justified.


----------



## DC (Apr 3, 2018)

He is a direct reflection of his parents. He will grow up and move to California to become another jackass in Sacramento


----------



## DC (Apr 3, 2018)

Poccington said:


> David Hogg has an ego which is not even remotely justified.


Common with most Gen ME


----------



## J.S. (Apr 3, 2018)

My main issue with David Hogg is the way he tries to shield himself from criticism. I have no problem with student activism and I can see how many of the comments made about him are rude and unjustified. However, he shames his opponents by saying that are "mudslinging at children." 

I don't think you can expect to "change the world" if you deflect all criticism by labeling yourself and your peers as children. You can't have both. You can either be a child and stay out of politics or you can admit you are a full-grown adult and expect some blowback.

On a side note, his SAT score is not nearly competitive enough to get admitted to UCLA. It is the most applied school in the country, on top of that one of the world's elite public universities. He's not even a California resident.


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## Chopstick (Apr 7, 2018)

I am hopeful to hear more from this kid but I am not holding my breath.


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## Chopstick (Apr 19, 2018)

See my post above.  Many people are hearing from this kid now.  

Hero student Anthony Borges files first lawsuit in Parkland school shooting



> Anthony Borges, the hero teenager who took five bullets while blocking a doorway during the shooting spree, is suing Cruz for assault and battery. Alex Arreaza, the Borges family’s attorney, filed the suit electronically in Broward Circuit Court on Tuesday morning.
> The defendants are Cruz, 19, the estate of Cruz’s late mother, Lynda, and James and Kimberly Snead, the Parkland couple who allowed Cruz to stay in their home from late November until Feb. 14, the day of the shooting.
> Also named as defendants are Henderson Behavioral Health, the Jerome Golden Center for Behavioral Health and the South County Mental Health Center, three facilities cited in the suit as treating Cruz for various mental health conditions.
> 
> ...


----------



## Downtown “Funky Stuff” Malone🍆 (Apr 20, 2018)

Waiting on details...
Ocala, Florida, school shooting: Student wounded at Forest High, authorities say - CNN


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## DC (Apr 20, 2018)

Also a cultural additive to our society
Mass shootings may be linked to psychotropic drug use | One America News Network


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 20, 2018)

DC said:


> Also a cultural additive to our society
> Mass shootings may be linked to psychotropic drug use | One America News Network



From the story:
_“Why does it always seem that the shooter in these type of mass killings has been on some sort of psychotropic drugs?” asks former Texas Congressman Ron Paul. “Why is it no one is questioning these medications? All of which come with labels warning of horrific side effects. Perhaps one reason they are ignored is that the pharmaceutical industry spends billions each year lobbying congress.”_

I have been drawn towards OANN recently, but this story alone is very disappointing reporting.  They drew me in with their click-bait headline, but why not do your due diligence as a reporter and actually report on how many ‘mass killers’ were known to be on some type of “psychotropic drug” vs. how many were not?  Tell the reader if Ron Paul has actually done his research, or is just spewing something he read on the internet.


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## runninrunninrunnin (Apr 20, 2018)

Its’s fucking disgusting that most people ignore real problems and just put their kids on lots of meds. The American family needs to bounce back.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Apr 20, 2018)

runninrunninrunnin said:


> Its’s fucking disgusting that most people ignore real problems and just put their kids on lots of meds.


What "real problems" are people ignoring?




runninrunninrunnin said:


> The American family needs to bounce back.


Bounce back from what?


----------



## policemedic (Apr 20, 2018)

runninrunninrunnin said:


> Its’s fucking disgusting that most people ignore real problems and just put their kids on lots of meds. The American family needs to bounce back.



The truth is that people with real problems sometimes need medication as well as other therapies.  Seeking psychiatric treatment for one’s child is not, ipso facto, abnegation of parental responsibilities.


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## policemedic (Apr 20, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> From the story:
> _“Why does it always seem that the shooter in these type of mass killings has been on some sort of psychotropic drugs?” asks former Texas Congressman Ron Paul. “Why is it no one is questioning these medications? All of which come with labels warning of horrific side effects. Perhaps one reason they are ignored is that the pharmaceutical industry spends billions each year lobbying congress.”_
> 
> I have been drawn towards OANN recently, but this story alone is very disappointing reporting.  They drew me in with their click-bait headline, but why not do your due diligence as a reporter and actually report on how many ‘mass killers’ were known to be on some type of “psychotropic drug” vs. how many were not?  Tell the reader if Ron Paul has actually done his research, or is just spewing something he read on the internet.



I actually agree that many, if not most, active killers have suffered from mental illness to a greater or lesser degree.  That said, you’re right—the article was not well-sourced or researched.

My issue with medicating people whose brains haven’t fully developed is that we don’t understand the mechanism of action of some of the drugs we’re using.  That is to say, we know that they work (sometimes) but we don’t know why.  Because that is true, we also aren’t sure what else they are doing in these still developing brains.  What we do know about the side effect profiles of some psychiatric meds isn’t always encouraging.

I do think that the use of certain classes of medications in certain populations, particularly teenagers and young adults, needs to be carefully considered and very closely monitored particularly during the initial phase of treatment.


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## runninrunninrunnin (Apr 20, 2018)

I should have worded that differently, my mistake. The real problem I was referring to was the decline of tough parenting. Helping your child with self control, establishing a good work ethic, coping skills, good character, basic American ideals. The list goes on but I digress. What I meant by the American family needed a bounce back was the escalating trend of single parenthood. Which in my opinion has really hurt our culture. Not to mention the disassociation from reality with the massive growth of technology.

I agree that seeking help for your child is absolutely what you should do. Whether it is from a medical professional or your own holistic approach. My problem is, that psychiatrists aren’t necessarily giving the child any behavior therapy before saying they need to be prescribed these meds. Who knows the long term effect of these meds on cognitive function. It’s a scary thing to imagine some 13 year old being misdiagnosed and having his long term health adversely affected. To my knowledge opioids are a lot more limited to who gets prescribed them than 10-15 years ago. The same should be done with psychiatric meds.


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## 256 (Apr 20, 2018)

I graduated high school in 2004. I don’t recall any children I went to school with (from k-12) going down to the office to get their meds. That very well could be because they didn’t want people to see it. Now, I’m going to ask a really dumb question of the ladies and gentlemen that grew up before me. Do you folks (more experienced, not older lol) remember kids acting out as they do now in school?

Here’s my experience working in the schools as SRO every Monday for the last 5 years: the kids that are constantly in the office for discipline issues are the same kids that were in the office 20 minutes earlier (generalizing) to take that medication. When they’re suspended for whatever reason it’s me, the SRO that takes them home. When I arrive at the home of the suspended child it’s always the same situation. Mom or dad (or both) laying on the couch with one or two younger children running wild. Next, the 2 dogs (mostly Pitbulls, imagine that) coming running to the door, there’s dog shit all over and the 800 sq ft apartment is in total disarray.

I firmly believe that some (some!) kids absolutely need medication and benefit greatly from it. But, most of these kids need parents that don’t look at them as an inconvenience. The kids don’t have a chance in hell, and it’s sad.

I got called to the school today for a preschooler who was bitten by their family dog. A section of the bottom fatty portion of his earlobe was hanging on by a thread, at least 6 puncture wounds to his head and a large cut behind the ear. When I asked mom about it she said, “we had a really hard time stopping the bleeding, but after it stopped we assumed he was fine.” EMS took the kid to the ER from the school. Every injury is infected and some required stitches. Guess what, the house was a shit-pit, mom and dad don’t work and they have two other smaller kids. Any guess on how much those kids will contribute to the next generation? Again, it’s not the kids' fault, the parents don't want to raise them.

We don’t have a mental health issue in America, we have a reproduction and godless issue in America (I’m not even religious, not in the least bit). America needs to start wrapping up their dicks, start going back to church and provide leadership to their kids. The kids don’t need medication, they need parents to care. Caring is giving the kid a smack on the ass every once in a while. The kids need parents to stop taking them to Taco Bell for every meal and calling it dinner. Dinner is cooked at home and you eat it at a dinner table as a family. The kids need parents to spend time with them, not throw them on an Xbox playing Call of Duty so they can check fooking Facebook.

My single mother did those above things with me and my two younger brothers. I thank god a director named Ridley Scott made Black Hawk Down. That movie brought to light a story of great American men sacrificing their life’s for the greater good of their families (their unit) and saved me from being a total fuck up like the rest of my family. It showed me to look up to men like MSG Gary Gordon and SFC Randall Shughart, not the fucking Kardashian’s. If those two men became more of America’s role models this country would be a much better place.

The “mental health issue” has been created by shitty parents.

Sorry to admin if I got a bit off topic with that..


----------



## Marine0311 (Apr 20, 2018)

256 said:


> I graduated high school in 2004. I don’t recall any children I went to school with (from k-12) going down to the office to get there meds. That very well could be because they didn’t want people to see it. Now, I’m going to ask a really dumb question of the ladies and gentlemen that grew up before me. Do you folks (more experienced, not older lol) remember kids acting out as they do now in school?
> 
> Here’s my experience working in the schools as SRO every Monday for the last 5 years: the kids that are constantly in the office for discipline isssues are the same kids that were in the office 20 minutes earlier (generalizing) to take that medication everyday. When they’re suspended for whatever reason it’s me, the SRO that takes them home. When I arrive at the home of the suspended child it’s always the same situation at home. Mom or dad (or both) laying on the couch with one or two younger children running wild. Next the 2 dogs (mostly Pitbulls, imagine that) coming running to the door, there’s dog shit all over the house and the 800 sq ft apartment is in total disarray.
> 
> ...



I like your posts that are well thought out similar to @policemedic so please say more.


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## 256 (Apr 20, 2018)

Marine0311 said:


> I like your posts that are well thought out similar to @policemedic so please say more.



The “well thought out” part is difficult for me lol. Thank you.


----------



## SaintKP (Apr 21, 2018)

256 said:


> I got called to the school today for a preschooler who was bit by their family dog. A section of the bottom small fatty portion of his ear lobe was hanging on by a thread, at least 6 puncture wounds to his head and a large cut to the back of the ear. When I asked mom about it she said, “we had a really hard time stopping the bleeding, but after it stopped we assumed he was fine.” EMS took the kid to the ER from the school. Every injury is infected and some required stitches. Guess what, the house was a shit-pit, mom and dad don’t work and they have two other smaller kids. Any guess on how much those kids will contribute to the next generation? It’s not the kids fault, they have NO chance.




I have nothing to contribute to this and I agree largely with your entire post, but as someone who has been attacked by a dog before and is intimately familiar with the steps in cleaning the wounds and infection prevention this story is infuriating. 

Was CPS notified?


----------



## 256 (Apr 21, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> Was CPS notified?



Yes, at the home the same day


----------



## Border (May 18, 2018)

Active shooter incident at Santa Fe High School in Texas: School district

Another shooting.. Just apprehended the shooter a couple minutes ago.


----------



## Devildoc (May 18, 2018)

Just heard 8 fatalities?  Damn...just damn.....


----------



## Gunz (May 18, 2018)

Fuck.


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## racing_kitty (May 18, 2018)

Now there’s reports of multiple explosive devices at the scene.


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## ThunderHorse (May 18, 2018)

According to a friend from Houston, he's not saying there's any connection, but Santa Fe (TX) is the capital of the Texas KKK.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (May 18, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> According to a friend from Houston, he's not saying there's any connection, but Santa Fe (TX) is the capital of the Texas KKK.



Then why post this?

These shooting threads get confusing enough, please don’t add completely random and unfounded conspiracy theories.


----------



## ThunderHorse (May 18, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Then why post this?
> 
> These shooting threads get confusing enough, please don’t add completely random and unfounded conspiracy theories.


Just providing background info that the area has been under heavy racial tension for some time.  It was also hit very hard by Harvey as well.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (May 18, 2018)

ThunderHorse said:


> Just providing background info that the area has been under heavy racial tension for some time.  It was also hit very hard by Harvey as well.


Right, but these stories suck enough as they are. I’m just saying please wait to toss in a KKK/Group connection until there is at least some evidence to point that day.


----------



## runninrunninrunnin (May 18, 2018)

9 students, 1 teacher. Fuck.

They have two suspects in custody. One has been indentified, Dimitrios Pagourtzis.

I really hope there isn’t any like Stoneman Douglas for this one. Dealing with crazy people is enough of a problem. Having knowledge that they are going to do something and nothing is done is way worse.


----------



## Gunz (May 18, 2018)

Dimitrios Pagourtzis: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com


----------



## Devildoc (May 18, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> Dimitrios Pagourtzis: 5 Fast Facts You Need to Know | Heavy.com



The article mentions, several times, that on his clothing was adorned Nazi insignia.  I hope what is seen in conjunction with other evidence is that it is related to mental illness, and not taken as a shot--attempted link??--to anything accused of being political in relation to today's climate.  I also note that the article did not mention the hammer and sickle on his jacket collar at all.


----------



## racing_kitty (May 18, 2018)

Not just Nazi regalia...



I can’t tell if there’s a swastika on the IC, but according to an acquaintance that’s familiar with WWII era decorations (he’s a reenactor), it looks more like a WWI-era decoration. Sooooo, not a Nazi.


----------



## SpitfireV (May 18, 2018)

I'd say your mate is right. Looks like a pre-Nazi era ribbon to me. 

Iron Cross - Wikipedia


----------



## DA SWO (May 18, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> I'd say your mate is right. Looks like a pre-Nazi era ribbon to me.
> 
> Iron Cross - Wikipedia


Slight disagreement, he had a bunch of shit on there trying to make himself out as a bad-ass.
Hammer and sickle, so can we argue he is a socialist/communist?
Rising sun, does that make him a Buddhist?
Cthulhu, really?

We'll have to wait and see if Mr Trench coat was bullied, or is just an asshole; either way,  I hope he enjoys our penal system.
 I hope he gets tossed into the general population sooner, rather than later.
Texas will stick a needle in his arm, or one of his fellow inmates will shank him (my preferred choice).

Local news says he used a shotgun and .38 revolver, which means the family member who owns them also gets fucked.


----------



## AlpineTXN (May 19, 2018)

I grew up in a different town outside of Houston, but relatively close to this area. This hits pretty close to home. 

Aside from intense anger and sadness at another arbitrary killing spree, I feel like this is a cultural/communal failing that cannot be fixed with some simple politicized moves. Maybe this kid is just an evil POS. But these events seem to be happening more often, and I doubt more evil people are just being born. 

Whatever is happening to cause this, these "people" have lost any human connection to their peers. Guns/bullying/etc. have existed for far longer than school shootings, but something has changed in recent history to spur the acceleration of these events. I don't think there is one simple answer, but it sure seems that the more "connected" we are, the more isolated, divided, and estranged we become from one another. Especially in those who have been immersed in that world during the early stages of brain development. Who knows...


----------



## SpitfireV (May 19, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> Slight disagreement, he had a bunch of shit on there trying to make himself out as a bad-ass.
> Hammer and sickle, so can we argue he is a socialist/communist?
> Rising sun, does that make him a Buddhist?
> Cthulhu, really?
> ...



What are you on about? I'm only saying it does look like a pre nazi Iron Cross. I didn't say anything else let alone speculate on his political leanings. Unless I've missed something in my own post?


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## AWP (May 19, 2018)

I've already seen two media outlets call it a Nazi award. You can clearly see this isn't the case unless he has some pseudo-Nazi era award like a WWI Iron Cross with a swastika on it. The narrative's out there so now it is the "truth."


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## Ooh-Rah (May 19, 2018)

AWP said:


> The narrative's out there so now it is the "truth."



Never let the truth get in the way of a good story.


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## racing_kitty (May 19, 2018)

It’s the “truth” because Only Right Wingers Can Be Nazis (TM). The media needs this kid to be a rightie. 

ETA: According to the garbage at Yahoo! News, he was bullied, but the reasons weren’t disclosed. The closest one gets is “he’s weird” because he wore that trench coat in hot weather.


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## Border (May 19, 2018)

I live by Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, the last big school shooting down here in Parkland. 

Man i drove by there last night by accident, never actually have driven past it. There were people outside crying and holding onto the fence.. that really hit me in the feels. Some people putting up loving posters and things onto the fence at 2300  

I guess this recent school shooting really brought all the emotions back to the family's of MSD.  So sad


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## Gunz (May 19, 2018)

Border said:


> I live by Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School, the last big school shooting down here in Parkland.
> 
> Man i drove by there last night by accident, never actually have driven past it. There were people outside crying and holding onto the fence.. that really hit me in the feels. Some people putting up loving posters and things onto the fence at 2300
> 
> I guess this recent school shooting really brought all the emotions back to the family's of MSD.  So sad




No doubt. Death of your kid: worst nightmare of any parent.


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## Devildoc (May 19, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> No doubt. Death of your kid: worst nightmare of any parent.



Cannot 'like' this one enough....


----------



## SaintKP (May 20, 2018)

Texas school shooting: Gunman targeted my daughter because she rejected him, grieving mom says

Allegedly he shot up the school because he kept getting turned down by some girl, whether that's the specific reason or not I dont know. According to a police affidavit he targeted people he didn't like.

I'm guessing the bullying reason previously mentioned in the thread might be true.


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## 757 (May 21, 2018)

Another tragedy  I'm not sure there were enough warning signs with this kid, given the limited information that we have at this time. That said, the information seems to suggest that this kid, 1) liked authoritarian regimes (communism, as well as German and Japanese imperialism) and 2) was a social misfit/outcast.

Regarding point 2, I think Jordan Peterson may be on to something with regard to anti-social males.


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## BloodStripe (May 21, 2018)

SaintKP said:


> Texas school shooting: Gunman targeted my daughter because she rejected him, grieving mom says
> 
> Allegedly he shot up the school because he kept getting turned down by some girl, whether that's the specific reason or not I dont know. According to a police affidavit he targeted people he didn't like.
> 
> I'm guessing the bullying reason previously mentioned in the thread might be true.



If you've never been rejected by anyone, you're either Prince Harry or an introvert, somethings you just need to recast your net and try again. Just because you can't land your dream girl doesn't mean you have been bullied. If that were the case,  Pardus would have killed all the sheeps a long time ago.


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## SaintKP (May 21, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> If you've never been rejected by anyone, you're either Prince Harry or an introvert, somethings you just need to recast your net and try again. Just because you can't land your dream girl doesn't mean you have been bullied. If that were the case,  Pardus would have killed all the sheeps a long time ago.



I'm agreeing with you, I'm not saying that him being turned down by someone he would have forgotten about in a month equates to him being bullied. But everything that has been reported so far points to him getting screwed around with. Is a lot of it him bringing it upon himself? Yeah probably. But that doesn't mean it didnt exist.

I fall into the school of thought of needing to just grow up and learn to deal with it, not everyone is going to like you in life. I was fucked around with in middleschool and the beginning of highschool but I didnt wind up doing a school shooting. I realized that words are just that, words, they hold no power over me. It helped that I got big because of football and wrestling but that's beside the point.

Besides too few people realize that any heartbreak because Stacy turned you down can be solved with some bath oils, Teddy Pendergrass, and Sleepless in Seattle.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (May 22, 2018)

Well if you walk around in a duster smelling like ass all day, girls ain't gonna be interested and people will talk shit to you.


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## 256 (May 25, 2018)

Man opens fire inside Oklahoma restaurant before 'armed citizen' shoots, kills him, police say

I’m going to go out on a limb and say this happens a lot more than it’s reported and FOX News might be starting to try to bring attention to it. I like it, make every one of these incidents know. Then after a while put out that all the teachers are packing. Especially since these kids are wanting to be caught now, instead of offing themselves. Might serve as enough of a deterrent.


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## blubuilt (May 26, 2018)

256 said:


> Man opens fire inside Oklahoma restaurant before 'armed citizen' shoots, kills him, police say
> 
> I’m going to go out on a limb and say this happens a lot more than it’s reported and FOX News might be starting to try to bring attention to it. I like it, make every one of these incidents know. Then after a while put out that all the teachers are packing. Especially since these kids are wanting to be caught now, instead of offing themselves. Might serve as enough of a deterrent.



The limb your on certainly appears to be a sturdy one.

I remember years ago, I used to receive Rifleman Magazine as a part of my NRA membership, there was a page in every issue dedicated to just this. I am sure they may have recycled a few stories over the years, as thankfully the sample size is not so overwhelming to necessitate additional pages.

We all know that "celebrating" these actions rarely, if ever, fit the narrative. 

What a strange time to be alive, hero's are relegated to footnotes while the criminals and their acts are the focus. Wild. The disheartening part is that this is by design.


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## Ranger Psych (May 26, 2018)

I see new news daily regarding utilization of firearms nationwide. These articles depict either actual employment or simple brandishing, that prevents the occurance of or stops in-progress crime. I will disagree with the "recycling stories". It just happens that stories end up sounding about the same, as there's only so much crime that can occur.


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## DA SWO (May 26, 2018)

256 said:


> Man opens fire inside Oklahoma restaurant before 'armed citizen' shoots, kills him, police say
> 
> I’m going to go out on a limb and say this happens a lot more than it’s reported and FOX News might be starting to try to bring attention to it. I like it, make every one of these incidents know. Then after a while put out that all the teachers are packing. Especially since these kids are wanting to be caught now, instead of offing themselves. Might serve as enough of a deterrent.


eatery was a no-gun zone, patrons had to run out to the car and get their weapons.


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## Ooh-Rah (May 26, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> eatery was a no-gun zone, patrons had to run out to the car and get their weapons.


It's always interesting to me various state law around this.  In MN for instance, other than federal building there is virtually no penalty for carrying where it is 'posted'.  The law even permits a carrying person to have a beer as long as (s)he remains under .04.  

It took years to get our carry law passed and everything lined up just right when it was.  Going on 15 years now.


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## 256 (May 26, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> eatery was a no-gun zone, patrons had to run out to the car and get their weapons.



And someone ignored the sign? That's unbelievable...


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## blubuilt (May 28, 2018)

Ranger Psych said:


> I see new news daily regarding utilization of firearms nationwide. These articles depict either actual employment or simple brandishing, that prevents the occurance of or stops in-progress crime. I will disagree with the "recycling stories". It just happens that stories end up sounding about the same, as there's only so much crime that can occur.



Was not referring to daily news, only one magazine's section regarding this topic, and yes, some were certainly recycled. word for word, for the very reasons we both mentioned, the sample size just isn't an overwhelming statistic and most go unreported for the most part, and if they are reported, it is not "celebrated" outside of publications that are Pro 2A, Pro CCW, etc.


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## ThunderHorse (May 29, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> It's always interesting to me various state law around this.  In MN for instance, other than federal building there is virtually no penalty for carrying where it is 'posted'.  The law even permits a carrying person to have a beer as long as (s)he remains under .04.
> 
> It took years to get our carry law passed and everything lined up just right when it was.  Going on 15 years now.


In AZ it seems that proprietors define whether their business is a go/no-go zone.


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## DA SWO (May 29, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> eatery was a no-gun zone, patrons had to run out to the car and get their weapons.


The restaurant is now saying the are a no-open carry location and concealed carry has always been welcomed.  
Which makes me wonder why the weapons were left in cars.


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## 256 (May 29, 2018)

DA SWO said:


> The restaurant is now saying the are a no-open carry location and concealed carry has always been welcomed.
> Which makes me wonder why the weapons were left in cars.



Maybe they were all drinking? CCW permit and booze is frowned upon. I don’t agree with that  necessarily, but I wonder if that played a part.


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## CDG (May 29, 2018)

256 said:


> Maybe they were all drinking? CCW permit and booze is frowned upon. I don’t agree with that  necessarily, but I wonder if that played a part.


 Louie's is usually pretty packed.  If I did own a gun, and I'm not saying I do, I wouldn't want to carry in a crowded area where people were bumping, sliding past, etc.


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## policemedic (May 31, 2018)

blubuilt said:


> Was not referring to daily news, only one magazine's section regarding this topic, and yes, some were certainly recycled. word for word, for the very reasons we both mentioned, the sample size just isn't an overwhelming statistic and most go unreported for the most part, and if they are reported, it is not "celebrated" outside of publications that are Pro 2A, Pro CCW, etc.



I don't know that defensive uses of firearms "...go unreported for the most part".  Some certainly do, but the problem with tracking those that are reported is that there is no specific Uniform Crime Reporting code to indicate a civilian used a firearm defensively.  Note that here I refer to defensive uses as those instances where a firearm is displayed but not discharged.

When it's discharged, tracking is much easier.  Even amongst law enforcement, where arrests are often made at gun point, tracking incidents where we don't shoot people is problematic.  The data elements are in the reports, to be sure, but without a specific UCR to search for querying record management systems can be tedious.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 4, 2018)

This is first full account I've read from the POV of Scot Peterson, the school resources officer who was vilified for not entering the building during the Parkland school shooting. 

I recall prior shootings where multiple officers had been on site and were not permitted to enter a building until SWAT had cleared it....this was one man against an unknown threat.  The article gives an interesting perspective...should he have rushed the building in the attempt of finding the source of the shooter(s) or was he right to lock down the building and attempt to direct police where to go.

At the end of the day, based on what I read, this man needs serious help or we will eventually read about him eating his gun.

'It was my job, and I didn't find him': Stoneman Douglas resource officer remains haunted by massacre


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## Devildoc (Jun 4, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> At the end of the day, based on what I read, this man needs serious help or we will eventually read about him eating his gun.
> 
> 'It was my job, and I didn't find him': Stoneman Douglas resource officer remains haunted by massacre



I just had this conversation with my kids this weekend:  _Every_ action has consequences, good or bad, and you must live with them.


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## AWP (Jun 4, 2018)

I'm moving this to General Discussion. So far these shootings aren't politically motivated and as such do not meet the definition of terrorism.


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## runninrunninrunnin (Jun 12, 2018)

2 teens charged in attempted terror act at prom in Virginia Beach

Well, good thing Virginia Beach police are well trained and funded. This could’ve been really bad. One of the suspects was appearantly wanted for another shooting the night before in Norfolk.


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## blubuilt (Jun 12, 2018)

policemedic said:


> I don't know that defensive uses of firearms "...go unreported for the most part".  Some certainly do, but the problem with tracking those that are reported is that there is no specific Uniform Crime Reporting code to indicate a civilian used a firearm defensively.  Note that here I refer to defensive uses as those instances where a firearm is displayed but not discharged.
> 
> When it's discharged, tracking is much easier.  Even amongst law enforcement, where arrests are often made at gun point, tracking incidents where we don't shoot people is problematic.  The data elements are in the reports, to be sure, but without a specific UCR to search for querying record management systems can be tedious.



For clarity: By unreported I am referring to reporting via wide media coverage (wide being outside the general area of occurrence), I obviously should have been more specific in my post, I was not implying that they go unreported to LE. We the people don't hear much if at all about the good guy with a gun so to speak, obviously aside from this most recent incident.

I can imagine that true/clean empirical data would be difficult to come by in whole in the absence of the Uniform Crime Reporting code you mentioned.

I've read as much as I can find in the open, mainly FBI Statistics, numerous think tanks,  policy and advocacy groups. Its tough to delouse some of it, as it is readily apparent that there is bias in a lot of the reports (both ways I might add), mainly from the advocacy side of things, again this swings both ways.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 13, 2018)

Poccington said:


> If I knew that mate, I'd be a politician instead of a soldier!
> 
> Like I said previously, I know it's a complicated issue but something needs to be done. Why does a 19 year old civilian need to be allowed own a rifle? It just makes zero sense to me as someone on the outside looking in.



I can think of several reasons an adult would want a rifle:  hunting, sport shooting, and of course protection.  If I ever had to protect myself from another human being, especially a group of human beings, I’d want a rifle. 

A 19 year old is a full citizen on our country, empowered and some would say expected to protect themselves and their nation.  If the person is a male, then he is part of the militia by Title X US Code.  

The purpose of having access to firearms under our Co stitutjon is to defend our rights for those who would try and take them.  In my opinion, that includes access to the civilian version of the standard light infantry weapons that would be used to oppress them.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 13, 2018)

runninrunninrunnin said:


> 2 teens charged in attempted terror act at prom in Virginia Beach
> 
> Well, good thing Virginia Beach police are well trained and funded. This could’ve been really bad. One of the suspects was appearantly wanted for another shooting the night before in Norfolk.



Good job law enforcement!  

I don’t get how this is a terrorist act though.  Doesn’t terrorism require a political angle?  This looks to me more like gang violence.


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## runninrunninrunnin (Jun 13, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> Good job law enforcement!
> 
> I don’t get how this is a terrorist act though.  Doesn’t terrorism require a political angle?  This looks to me more like gang violence.


I believe he made threats against certain people at the prom. Then when he showed up it meant he intended to follow through with them. Just a guess though, haven’t a clue how the DA would make it a terror charge.


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 13, 2018)

runninrunninrunnin said:


> I believe he made threats against certain people at the prom.



What are you sourcing from?


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## runninrunninrunnin (Jun 13, 2018)

Ooh-Rah said:


> What are you sourcing from?


The news article said he made threats to certain people.
“Police and school district officials investigated the matter and  say that Michael Coleman, 18, had made threats against specific people within Bayside High's school zone.”


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## SaintKP (Jun 13, 2018)

runninrunninrunnin said:


> I believe he made threats against certain people at the prom. Then when he showed up it meant he intended to follow through with them. Just a guess though, haven’t a clue how the DA would make it a terror charge.



Terroristic threats are pretty open on who can be charged with them, basically make a threat to bodily harm that would result in terror to the public and it can stick.

I saw it a lot through high school and middle school, but whether they follow through with the charge is another thing entirely. Plus I'm not entirely sure if Virginia has a statute for it to begin with.


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## policemedic (Jun 13, 2018)

runninrunninrunnin said:


> I believe he made threats against certain people at the prom. Then when he showed up it meant he intended to follow through with them. Just a guess though, haven’t a clue how the DA would make it a terror charge.





SaintKP said:


> Terroristic threats are pretty open on who can be charged with them, basically make a threat to bodily harm that would result in terror to the public and it can stick.
> 
> I saw it a lot through high school and middle school, but whether they follow through with the charge is another thing entirely. Plus I'm not entirely sure if Virginia has a statute for it to begin with.



There is a world of difference between the criminal charges of terroristic threats and terrorism.


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## SaintKP (Jun 13, 2018)

policemedic said:


> There is a world of difference between the criminal charges of terroristic threats and terrorism.




I know that, I didnt read the article when I had originally posted what I did and just based it off of how the title was worded. I figured they were getting charged with terroristic threats instead of conspiring to commit. My fault.


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## DA SWO (Jun 13, 2018)

runninrunninrunnin said:


> I believe he made threats against certain people at the prom. Then when he showed up it meant he intended to follow through with them. Just a guess though, haven’t a clue how the DA would make it a terror charge.


Makes it easier to plea bargain down to the desired charge.


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## Gunz (Jun 13, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> I can think of several reasons an adult would want a rifle:  hunting, sport shooting, and of course protection.  If I ever had to protect myself from another human being, especially a group of human beings, I’d want a rifle.
> 
> A 19 year old is a full citizen on our country, empowered and some would say expected to protect themselves and their nation.  If the person is a male, then he is part of the militia by Title X US Code.
> 
> The purpose of having access to firearms under our Co stitutjon is to defend our rights for those who would try and take them.  In my opinion, that includes access to the civilian version of the standard light infantry weapons that would be used to oppress them.




I would add for our friend @Poccington that the _tradition _of gun ownership is extremely deep-rooted in this country, handed down from generation to generation, especially in more rural areas. My dad, a WW2 vet, taught me how to shoot when I was about 8. And I taught all my sons. And they'll teach their children. And the US is_ so _big, rural areas abound. There are a million places to go and shoot, or hunt or engage in marksmanship, sporting clays, competitive shooting etc.

I live in rural Florida. Everybody has guns. Why? Because places are so spread out it takes LEOs a long time to get to where you are. And this is even more pronounced in the Western US.

As far as urban life goes, no need to point out the dangers there.


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## Box (Jun 13, 2018)

Here is a thought...

If a 19 year old cant be trusted with a firearm - then they sure as hell should NOT be allowed to vote.
..or drive

The ballot box is a LOT more dangerous than a firearm.
...and cars are simply killing the shit out of innocent people


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## DA SWO (Jun 13, 2018)

Box said:


> Here is a thought...
> 
> If a 19 year old cant be trusted with a firearm - then they sure as hell should NOT be allowed to vote.
> ..or drive
> ...


or drink, or smoke or get drafted.


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## Dienekes (Jun 13, 2018)

Box said:


> Here is a thought...
> 
> If a 19 year old cant be trusted with a firearm - then they sure as hell should NOT be allowed to vote.
> ..or drive
> ...





DA SWO said:


> or drink, or smoke or get drafted.



To clarify, I’m firmly in these camps along with Ococka ‘s and Marauder’s posts, and I’m playing devil’s advocate despite agreeing with the reasoning. Throughout grade school, children are taught history classes and given civics classes. These are basically mandatory as school is mandatory until 16 I believe, and you really don’t get a choice on what you take. They may be poorly taught or received, but everyone is given jnstruction to a certain standard. Same goes for health class and driving classes. Again these are basically mandatory and driving certainly is to get your license. There is no such mandatory class for firearms such as hunting rifles, shotguns, etc., and most cost money whereas in public school, the classes I mentioned are mostly or entirely free. I would argue that such a firearms class should be mandatory and could be taught in PE/civics obviously subject to exclusion as requested by the student. Otherwise it’s difficult to draw comparisons between driving, voting, partaking in vices, etc. because people grow up around these and have classes on them whereas the only exposure most people who don’t grow up with guns in the home get is from social media or news media, and generally speaking people fear what they don’t understand. Hell on that point, plenty of people that grew up around firearms take them for granted or don’t operate them with proper safety protocols.


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## policemedic (Jun 13, 2018)

@Poccington, is your issue with age (19 is too young in your view) or with civilian ownership of weapons generally?

I’d think the Irish would understand the core purpose of our Second Amendment better than most.


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## RetPara (Jun 19, 2018)

Coming to this thread a little late...…   I could not find this article discussed...   While it is from what I consider to be one of the most high falooting and snobbish magazines after Town and Country...   I believe this bears serious thoughtful reading and discussion.

How School Shootings Spread


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## Ooh-Rah (Jun 19, 2018)

RetPara said:


> Coming to this thread a little late...…   I could not find this article discussed...   While it is from what I consider to be one of the most high falooting and snobbish magazines after Town and Country...   I believe this bears serious thoughtful reading and discussion.
> 
> How School Shootings Spread



Thanks for posting. Bookmarked for future reading.


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## Marauder06 (Jun 20, 2018)

Dienekes said:


> To clarify, I’m firmly in these camps along with Ococka ‘s and Marauder’s posts, and I’m playing devil’s advocate despite agreeing with the reasoning. Throughout grade school, children are taught history classes and given civics classes. These are basically mandatory as school is mandatory until 16 I believe, and you really don’t get a choice on what you take. They may be poorly taught or received, but everyone is given jnstruction to a certain standard. Same goes for health class and driving classes. Again these are basically mandatory and driving certainly is to get your license. There is no such mandatory class for firearms such as hunting rifles, shotguns, etc., and most cost money whereas in public school, the classes I mentioned are mostly or entirely free. I would argue that such a firearms class should be mandatory and could be taught in PE/civics obviously subject to exclusion as requested by the student. Otherwise it’s difficult to draw comparisons between driving, voting, partaking in vices, etc. because people grow up around these and have classes on them whereas the only exposure most people who don’t grow up with guns in the home get is from social media or news media, and generally speaking people fear what they don’t understand. Hell on that point, plenty of people that grew up around firearms take them for granted or don’t operate them with proper safety protocols.



I'd be OK with mandatory training, even training tied to gun purchases, if it were 1) useful; 2) affordable; 3) easily available; 4) consistent across all US states and territories, and 5) ended with a universal CCW for handguns for those who wanted one.


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## Kakashi66223 (Jun 20, 2018)

Thank you @RetPara. That was an interesting read and find.

Deep down I am glad that there is a Summer Break for brick and mortar schools to huddle-up. What America needs is teachers that feel as if the students are *their* responsibility _to keep alive at what ever means a parent(s)will use, parent-by-proxy_. Home schooling is bound to get even more mainstream, I know it's not for everyone, and brick and mortar schools need to quit resisting staff-CCW if it could theoretically curtail school shootings.

What I really want to believe about school shootings:
1.The "few" talk and usually a certain group of kids "had" to know something was being planned or is about to happen.
2.Teachers can pick out the "creeps", know the "creeps" known accomplices, and could become more vigilant.
3. This stops happening because staff-CCWs.

Side note:
Distracted parenting and dodging responsibility is my soapbox sermon.  I don't know how many parents this year I have witnessed unnaturally neglect their kids at the pool thanks to mobile devices. May not be my kids but I'm watching out for them as well. Swimming will kill more children than school shootings if I'm correct in unintentional drowning statistics this summer. And if you drive to the swimming area, then motor vehicle accidents claim more lives than swimming. Distracted "anything" is on par with drunken "anything," FWIW.


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## RetPara (Jun 20, 2018)

I started substitute teaching a couple of years ago in several different districts.  There is no specific subject (prefer History, Social Studies, Geography, or English - stay away from Math) but cover 5th Grade > including Special Needs and Alternative schools.  I've only had to break up two fights and just one death threat.  That was from an 8th Grader, known to have serious mental/emotional issues, who said he was going to have his father shoot me.  My response was that 'Your father is not going to be happy to find out you wrote a check like that for him to cash. Beyond that he's gonna have to wait in line to do it; and it's a long line.'  

So I think that I have a unique perspective on school shootings.

First, I don't believe it's a secret that Johnny Nutball is making threats.  The question is how to discover them or discover key behavior indicators of imminent violence.

Not all teachers should be armed and some definitely don't want to be armed.  Most teachers are not psychologically prepared to fight except as a last ditch defense.  Most teachers do not have the ingrained sense to 'go to the sound of the guns'.

Anyone that will carry a firearm in a school should be getting monthly training - stress shoots, shoot don't shoot, and room clearing.  Also drills to draw and fire with a lot of live fire.   

Bear in mind that teachers have assigned responsibilities during school emergencies.  In Michigan every school has a comprehensive plan for fire, tornados, and security threats, some plans have different levels.  A teacher with a room of students cannot leave them alone in an emergency.  Not all classes have a ParaPro or Teachers Aid.

Some schools have Community Assistant's, Behavior Specialists, and Counselors.  In one High School it only takes a single phone call and a none cooperative student is teleported out of the room.  

So initial defense has to be a School Resource Officer, not the normal LEO on a ROAD assignment.  There is a need for armed school security who view the protection of the students as a primary responsibility.  To have the legal protection they need, there has to be an affiliation with a local LE Agency.  They must have the training mentioned above and it has to be repeated in a variety of scenarios.  Airsoft at night in the specific schools would be good training.

As for sub teaching..... I love it.  I don't do as much Special Needs now because you HAVE to know your kids.  It can take several days before your presence is accepted as normal.  

I like the Alternative Schools, whole different type of kids.  Some are emancipated as young as 15 YO.  They're supporting themselves and trying to finish school.  Some are there by court order, parole, probation, ankle monitors.  Court officers will drop by for unannounced drug screens, H&W chks, and the favorite 'Where is your ankle monitor?' These are the most interesting kids to talk with.  If you get them talking they will open up.  

I walk into a school with a set of life experiences unlike any teacher, sub, or adult the vast majority of them have ever met.  It's fun to take a History class and take a little different tangent with it.  Being able to talk about being in foreign countries with first person experiences helps.

This is an independent contracting gig through a company that provides subs to a variety of districts.  So via the web I can pick and choose where, what, and when I teach.  Makes a difference.


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## nobodythank you (Jun 20, 2018)

RetPara said:


> Anyone that will carry a firearm in a school should be getting monthly training - stress shoots, shoot don't shoot, and room clearing.  Also drills to draw and fire with a lot of live fire.


Not that I disagree with your suggestions, but even street cops and SROs don't get that much training. At least in FL, a good agency will keep yearly qualifications with some of the tasks you mentioned above (usually thrown in on range day). Excellent ones will have a separate day of instruction for those skills. IIRC, statute only requires a weapons qual once every two years. There was once an agency in the panhandle, their unifrom of the day was denim (no fecal matter here), and one of their officers showed up to the range with a rusted shut gun. It was the first time he had pulled it from the nylon holster since last qualifying with it two years previous in the rain.

Just providing some background. It would be nice for monthly instruction for the armed teachers, but like any training, it wouldn't be practical or realistic to the overall mission. Great discussion though.


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## Topkick (Jun 20, 2018)

ke4gde said:


> It would be nice for monthly instruction for the armed teachers, but like any training, it wouldn't be practical or realistic to the overall mission


I don't disagree that it's a challenge, but I think this could be accomplished by incentivizing teachers who participate in training on their own time. With all of the veteran owned tactical training groups out there, there are plenty of opportunities for teachers to seek out training.
I personally have worked with church security team members who receive incentives from their church and big discounts from the training group.


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## nobodythank you (Jun 20, 2018)

Topkick said:


> I don't disagree that it's a challenge, but I think this could be accomplished by incentivizing teachers who participate in training on their own time. With all of the veteran owned tactical training groups out there, there are plenty of opportunities for teachers to seek out training.
> I personally have worked with church security team members who receive incentives from their church and big discounts from the training group.


A great idea no doubt, but my main point was that it was impractical and not likely to occur. Even law enforcement professionals don't see that much training in a year's time. Most SWAT teams from smaller agencies don't have the budget or time for that much training. The larger cities with full time teams could realistically do something like that. Which goes to my point that it would be impractical for teachers given constraints on their time and duties as it stands now. In the end it all boils down to money and time. Both of which are in short supply for an already overloaded teacher.

Don't get me wrong, I am not opposed to arming teachers or school staff. I just don't see there being a significant amount of training for them after their initial familiarization. If they can even come to an agreement with their local LE agencies. The school district I live in is fighting tooth and nail with the sheriff's office to avoid arming teachers. Both agencies are cash strapped and undermanned. It is an ugly problem to be sure.


----------



## Topkick (Jun 20, 2018)

@ke4gde Valid points. My other half is a school teacher and I can verify that money and time will be a major issue.


----------



## J. (Jun 20, 2018)

Marauder06 said:


> Good job law enforcement!
> 
> I don’t get how this is a terrorist act though.  Doesn’t terrorism require a political angle?  This looks to me more like gang violence.




Terrorism - Wikipedia

*“Terrorism* is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a financial, political, religious or ideological aim.”


----------



## RetPara (Jun 20, 2018)

There in lies the rub.  The schools often are opposed to even voluntarily allowing teachers to be armed, let alone trained.  I can see local LE looking askance with this as a major liability issue for them and school systems.      The best middle route still seems to be armed LE School Resource Officers.  Your mileage will vary with that though.  Some LEA's will use it as a dumping ground or ROAD Program/Transition to retirement.


----------



## Topkick (Jun 20, 2018)

RetPara said:


> Some LEA's will use it as a dumping ground or ROAD Program/Transition to retirement.



I think you're right. Also, if you hire retirees you'll have to pay them well or, as with any other job, you will get what you pay for.


----------



## AWP (Jun 20, 2018)

J. said:


> Terrorism - Wikipedia
> 
> *“Terrorism* is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a financial, political, religious or ideological aim.”



You do what you want, and you probably don't know the man or his background, but I wouldn't go down this path with @Marauder06.


----------



## J. (Jun 21, 2018)

AWP said:


> You do what you want, and you probably don't know the man or his background, but I wouldn't go down this path with @Marauder06.



My bad gentleman, I had no intention of going down any path. I was just quoting the definition because I thought he legitimately was wondering if terrorism is from strictly a political angle. I cited it only to show I didn’t just pull it out of thin air. I don’t know his background, sorry if it came off wrong, I thought he was asking a question.


----------



## AWP (Jun 21, 2018)

J. said:


> post



No harm, no foul, Marine. You're good.


----------



## policemedic (Jun 21, 2018)

AWP said:


> You do what you want, and you probably don't know the man or his background, but I wouldn't go down this path with @Marauder06.



I was going to comment on the academic and intellectual merits of Wikipedia 🙄 but yeah...What you said 👍.


----------



## SpitfireV (Jun 21, 2018)

I think we had a big discussion on the definition of terrorism a few years back. Personally I don't think you'll ever get unanimous acceptance of any particular definition.


----------



## Gunz (Jun 21, 2018)

The SRO at my sons' high school was a short, obese lady deputy. Big high school, big student population, an out-of-shape SRO who could only waddle. Not trying to slam her...but really?


----------



## Grunt (Jun 21, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> The SRO at my sons' high school was a short, obese lady deputy. Big high school, big student population, an out-of-shape SRO who could only waddle. Not trying to slam her...but really?



That's the problem with the SRO program in a lot of places. It's often staffed with problem children and/or those awaiting retirement within a year or so. I looked at my son as my treasure that I entrusted to the school system for an 8 hour period. If he had a *protector* at school, I wanted it to be a capable person and not a non-hacker!


----------



## Poccington (Jun 23, 2018)

policemedic said:


> @Poccington, is your issue with age (19 is too young in your view) or with civilian ownership of weapons generally?
> 
> I’d think the Irish would understand the core purpose of our Second Amendment better than most.



Apologies for the late reply mate.

The age thing just baffles me somewhat... If I'm under 21 I can't legally buy alcohol but if I'm a citizen of good standing, I can buy firearms? Purely on a logical basis I find that bemusing. I do personally think it's just needless for a 19 year old civilian to own firearms etc. but that's just coming from someone who hasn't grown up in a country where firearms ownership is so commonplace, so it's gonna seem strange to me anyway?

I'm not against civilian ownership of firearms at all. Ireland has absurdly strict gun control which goes way beyond the point of reasonable, IMO. At the same time, I don't think it's unreasonable for there to be controls in place which people must adhere to before being allowed purchase firearms, such as mandatory training, a max number of firearms owned by a single person etc. but then you have the issues which @Maraurder06 alluded to, who provides the training? What are the standards? Does it mean they have to register all their firearms? etc. and that's before even broaching the Second Amendment topic. Plus with the amount of firearms already in circulation, is it just a case of closing the door after the horse has bolted? 

I don't have the answers and again, I'm just someone on the outside looking in but it's just madness to me that as these events happen, the fact that the shooters were aided in their task by their easy accessibility to firearms, is just not really even attempted to be addressed.

PS. If a hostile government ever acts the bollocks in Ireland again they'll get pint glasses launched at them


----------



## Kraut783 (Jun 23, 2018)

Ocoka said:


> The SRO at my sons' high school was a short, obese lady deputy. Big high school, big student population, an out-of-shape SRO who could only waddle. Not trying to slam her...but really?



SRO positions are often sought out by people who....

- Are tired of shift work.
- weren't really good street cops to begin with, and were probably horrible at CID.
- Trying to make the family happy with weekends and holidays off.
- Tired of the street.
- burned out of investigations, but don't feel like going back to shift work on the street.
- Are close to retirement.
- just needing a break

Not every department is the same, some school districts have their own PD's. Our department has had a few bad SROs...but right now we got a good lot, a few are actually former SWAT.

Being an SRO, you also have to put up with the petty politics of the school district and parents who are a pain in the ass, as well as the microscope when something happens at a school.

If you are a go getter, your not going to want to be assigned to a school as a SRO. Kinda like a Ranger sitting in a guard tower at a camp in Iraq....


----------



## Gunz (Jun 23, 2018)

Kraut783 said:


> SRO positions are often sought out by people who....
> 
> - Are tired of shift work.
> - weren't really good street cops to begin with, and were probably horrible at CID.
> ...



I get it, brother...and absolutely understandable. If I were a LEO there's no way I'd want to be at a high school every day.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 24, 2018)

My question about terrorism relates to the specific case of the two gangbangers who planned on shooting up a high school dance so they could take out a gang rival.  I was curious about the "terrorism" charge and am mainly interested to know if there is a different between the criminal definition of terrorism and the political / military one.  There did not appear to be any broader political 



J. said:


> Terrorism - Wikipedia
> 
> *“Terrorism* is, in the broadest sense, the use of intentionally indiscriminate violence as a means to create terror among masses of people; or fear to achieve a financial, political, religious or ideological aim.”



The thing about Wikipedia, though, is that it's often contradictory or incomplete.  There are probably a dozen or more definitions of the term on the site; some are authoritative and some are not.  And in this case, it is also a very bad definition of the term.  For one thing, violence does not have to be "indiscriminate" to be terrorism.  Some terrorist acts are very "discriminate;" if a terrorist assassin kills one specific person in furtherance of his organization's political objectives, is that not still terrorism?  I'm also not 100% good with the "financial" verbiage.  If it's not tied to a larger political / ideological idea, then it seems like straight crime to me.



SpitfireV said:


> I think we had a big discussion on the definition of terrorism a few years back. Personally I don't think you'll ever get unanimous acceptance of any particular definition.



Fortunately, we have doctrine to answer questions like this, so we all don't have to sit around arguing about it.

Title 22, US Code:
"premeditated, politically motivated violence perpetrated against noncombatant targets by subnational groups or clandestine agents."

If that definition holds in law enforcement as well, then again, I don't see how this particular crime becomes terrorism.


----------



## Kraut783 (Jun 24, 2018)

State and Federal might differ on Terrorism charges. While State charges might have terrorism in it.....it might not be the same as the Federal statute.

Texas doesn't have a terrorism charge...but we do have Terroristic Threat....that has nothing to do with International Terrorism.

Texas Penal Code - PENAL - PENAL § 22.07 | FindLaw

An actual FBI Terrorism case here in Dallas is being prosecuted in the state system due to the kids age. He is 17, an adult in Texas, but juvenile in the Federal system.  A supreme court decision messed up him being certified as an adult in the Federal system....so we are going with a state charge.

Plano teen suspected in plotting ISIS-inspired attack called fellow students 'sitting ducks' | Crime | Dallas News

Some states have actual International Terrorism charges, New York, and I think, Minnesota.


----------



## CDG (Jun 24, 2018)

Terrorism definitions typically have common elements, but the thing is that no one has the same definition.  I remember doing a project for one of my classes that was about the differing definitions across departments of the US Government.  If you were to add in worldwide definitions, there are likely dozens of differently worded definitions.  I suppose it could be boiled down to the old "What is pornography" argument.  You know it when you see it.


----------



## SpitfireV (Jun 24, 2018)

CDG said:


> Terrorism definitions typically have common elements, but the thing is that no one has the same definition.  I remember doing a project for one of my classes that was about the differing definitions across departments of the US Government.  If you were to add in worldwide definitions, there are likely dozens of differently worded definitions.  I suppose it could be boiled down to the old "What is pornography" argument.  You know it when you see it.



That sums it up. You guys are terrible for it- I'd have thought it makes sense to have an all of government definition but I suppose also that that would be difficult with such a massive enterprise.


----------



## Marauder06 (Jun 25, 2018)

SpitfireV said:


> That sums it up. You guys are terrible for it- I'd have thought it makes sense to have an all of government definition but I suppose also that that would be difficult with such a massive enterprise.



I could not agree more.  It seems like it would be easy to do by executive fiat, but apparently it's not.

Heck, I'd like to have one governmental standard for dates but apparently that's too hard too.


----------



## policemedic (Jun 26, 2018)

In PA we have both charges.  A quick look shows they are not related except for the title of the section.  Terroristic threats is a commonly laid charge; terrorism is not.

*§ 2706.  Terroristic threats.
(a)  Offense defined.--*A person commits the crime of terroristic threats if the person communicates, either directly or indirectly, a threat to:
(1)  commit any crime of violence with intent to terrorize another;
(2)  cause evacuation of a building, place of assembly or facility of public transportation; or
(3)  otherwise cause serious public inconvenience, or cause terror or serious public inconvenience with reckless disregard of the risk of causing such terror or inconvenience

*§ 2717.  Terrorism.
(a)  General rule.--*A person is guilty of terrorism if he commits a violent offense intending to do any of the following:
(1)  Intimidate or coerce a civilian population.
(2)  Influence the policy of a government by intimidation or coercion.
(3)  Affect the conduct of a government


----------



## Kraut783 (Jun 26, 2018)

Glad to see PA have something like that....I am hoping Texas will also go that route one day.


----------



## Stretcher Jockey (Jun 28, 2018)

Just found this article while browsing the news. Apparently the school board didnt attend their students rallies....
Broward County, where the Parkland attack happened, votes to put armed personnel in every school


----------



## BloodStripe (Aug 30, 2018)

The School Shootings That Weren't

11. That's the total number of incidents in schools in 2015-2016. So I think this begs to question whether or not school shootings are actually part of our culture. 

Yes, the numbers are rising. But I'd argue they are only rising because the ass holes doing it see others reported on tv and know they'll get their 10 days of media coverage. If the media stopped reporting, or at least reduced their 24 hour coverage of such instances, the number will come down.


----------



## Topkick (Aug 30, 2018)

But then the media wouldn't have that sensational story to report.  What bothers me most is the amount of attention the media gives specifically to the shooter.


----------



## Box (Aug 30, 2018)

If it bleeds - it leads 
same as it ever was


----------



## Board and Seize (Aug 30, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> The School Shootings That Weren't
> 
> 11. That's the total number of incidents in schools in 2015-2016.



Slight clarification on this.  Of the 235 reported by public schools, NPR was only able to _confirm_ 11.  NPR was unable to confirm/disconfirm 59.  The remaining 165 were disconfirmed.


----------



## BlackSmokeRisinG (Aug 30, 2018)

NavyBuyer said:


> Yes, the numbers are rising. But I'd argue they are only rising because the ass holes doing it see others reported on tv and know they'll get their 10 days of media coverage. If the media stopped reporting, or at least reduced their 24 hour coverage of such instances, the number will come down.



I'm an advocate for letting each school shootingn (or mass shooting) be publicized in local news only, with only a mention during national coverage. Keep the perpetrator names OFF THE AIR. If people want to know,_ need to know_, let them go to that city and pay for a copy of whatever court record, police report is available to the public.


----------



## Cookie_ (Aug 31, 2018)

As others have said, the 24 news cycle publicity probably plays a big role in this.
I've only seen one source (the news YouTuber Philip Defranco) that makes it a point to never comment on names of perpetrators.
Ben Shapiro and the Daily Wire started to follow that practice, but dropped it once that "crazy liberal" woman shot up the YouTube headquarters Building.


----------



## Gunz (Aug 31, 2018)

Box said:


> _*same as it ever was*_




Talkin Heads--_Once in a Lifetime._


----------



## The Hate Ape (Sep 3, 2018)

School shootings are not part of our culture. Its just a stupid trend that has taken hold because of it's particular emotional shock factor. A 10-20 year observation period is a fart in the wind compared to having schools/education systems in place since the colonial era. A hundred years from now nobody will give a shit about Parkville, the Connecticut shooting, etc.. etc..

Remember when Rock Music - especially Marylin Manson was to blame? People are stupid. We think we know everything.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Sep 14, 2022)

Here’s a judge who’s out of fucks to give.  


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570181979165052929


----------



## 757 (Sep 15, 2022)




----------



## Betenhauser (Sep 16, 2022)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Here’s a judge who’s out of fucks to give.
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1570181979165052929


I think she's my type


----------



## Blizzard (Sep 16, 2022)

Betenhauser said:


> I think she's my type


Maybe she's cool but she has a look, mannerism, and tone about her that reminds me a few buddies wives/ex-wives...those poor bastards. 😂  So, nah, that's a hard pass.


----------



## AWP (Sep 16, 2022)

Blizzard said:


> Maybe she's cool but she has a look, mannerism, and tone about her that reminds me a few buddies wives/ex-wives...those poor bastards. 😂  So, nah, that's a hard pass.



For those of us into crazy and attractive, she's ticking the right boxes.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 1, 2022)

Wasn’t sure where to put this but…someone‘s been training!
Smooth as fuck, I love seeing him put his coffee down before he gets out of his squad.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1575306709639499778
@policemedic , I’m assuming you’ve seen this video, but tagging you just in case.


----------



## Cookie_ (Oct 1, 2022)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Wasn’t sure where to put this but…someone‘s been training!
> Smooth as fuck, I love seeing him put his coffee down before he gets out of his squad.
> 
> 
> ...


"Tell me you've been in some deployment firefights without telling me you've been in firefights."

That video is the epitome of smooth and controlled.


----------



## Kraut783 (Oct 1, 2022)

Nice....about as calm and casual as you can be.


----------



## Devildoc (Oct 1, 2022)

"Shot fired, suspect's down". Not "shots," but "shot." He knew, he had his weapon on safe as soon as the shot broke.  Cool as ice.  And he went back to his coffee that he put on his dashboard.


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 1, 2022)

The full release by Tacoma PD/Pierce County:


----------



## JedisonsDad (Oct 1, 2022)

I’m curious about the “self inflicted” gunshot wound. When did that occur?


----------



## Blizzard (Oct 1, 2022)

JedisonsDad said:


> I’m curious about the “self inflicted” gunshot wound. When did that occur?


Yeah, tough to say.  Probably between video cuts?

Also, sounds like Officer Munn mutters something to himself after charging his rifle.  Not really clear what it was but he's about as calm and collected as a guy can be. Never rushed, very deliberate. A model for others.


----------



## DasBoot (Oct 1, 2022)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Wasn’t sure where to put this but…someone‘s been training!
> Smooth as fuck, I love seeing him put his coffee down before he gets out of his squad.
> 
> 
> ...


Tacoma, sleeve tattoo, cool as a cucumber, perfect fundamentals…. I’m guessing homie was a <$> batt boy who crossed over.


----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 1, 2022)

DasBoot said:


> Tacoma, sleeve tattoo, cool as a cucumber, perfect fundamentals…. I’m guessing homie was a <$> batt boy who crossed over.


better than that... a 19D.

;)


----------



## DasBoot (Oct 1, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> better than that... a 19D.
> 
> ;)


I mean he put down his coffee instead of taking out his butt plug so I’m ruling out Cav scout.


----------



## AWP (Oct 1, 2022)

DasBoot said:


> I mean he put down his coffee instead of taking out his butt plug so I’m ruling out Cav scout.


----------



## Muppet (Oct 1, 2022)

Well, look at these guys vs the fucking spineless cunts from Uvalde, Parkland, they are not cunts, I'm sure they'd honor their oaths to the constitution and citizens instead of their pensions. Well done guys.

In regards to calm cops, the dept in town I used to be a medic for, where my wife's brother is a senior cop, has a cop, named Chuck. He used to have a majestic porn fu Manchu Stacie.

One night, my partner and I were in a shit neighborhood, having static on the corner with some asshole, we call for PD, he, wife's bro and another cop shows up.

It went from borderline anarchy to calmness when Chuck pulls up with his porn stache, eating a slice of pizza, other hand in pocket. Every hood rat that was yelling, stopped, went quiet and were like, "officer Chuck, what up yo!!?".

Some cops are always calm.


----------



## policemedic (Oct 1, 2022)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Wasn’t sure where to put this but…someone‘s been training!
> Smooth as fuck, I love seeing him put his coffee down before he gets out of his squad.
> 
> 
> ...



Yup.  Strong work and textbook reason why every cop needs a rifle with an optic.


----------



## Topkick (Oct 3, 2022)

AWP said:


>


Okay, enough grab ass. Go help set up that GP medium.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Oct 4, 2022)

A really good breakdown of what happened.  Better audio of the shot too, Officer Munn was under fire when he took that shot.






ETA:  Munn is part of the SWAT team…

TEAM APPOINTMENTS:
Effective May 28, 2018
Police Patrol Officers Aaron McNeely and Christopher Munn are appointed to the Special Weapons and Tactical Team (SWAT).

https://publicrecordsourcerer.files.wordpress.com/2021/01/2018_personnel_directives1.pdf


----------



## Cookie_ (Oct 12, 2022)

This seems the most appropriate thread to post this story.

Alex Jones hit with almost 1 billion dollar settlement in Sandy Hook case.


----------



## AWP (Oct 12, 2022)

Fuck around and find out, Alex.


----------



## pardus (Oct 12, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> This seems the most appropriate thread to post this story.
> 
> Alex Jones hit with almost 1 billion dollar settlement in Sandy Hook case.


I didn't follow that story, was it just that AJ said some dumb shit and was sued? No 1st amendment protection? Or he did something else?


----------



## Topkick (Oct 12, 2022)

pardus said:


> I didn't follow that story, was it just that AJ said some dumb shit and was sued? No 1st amendment protection? Or he did something else?


Yes. But the families claim they have been harrassed because his platform has reached so many.


----------



## Cookie_ (Oct 12, 2022)

pardus said:


> I didn't follow that story, was it just that AJ said some dumb shit and was sued? No 1st amendment protection? Or he did something else?



The 1st Ammendment doesn't protect from harassment/threats, which was the basis of defamation lawsuit.

Even during the trial he was still getting on infowars and talking about the parents being "globalists controlled actors who can turn on emotions at will".

He got caught providing funds to people who doxxed the families/showed up to harass them in person.


----------



## pardus (Oct 12, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> The 1st Ammendment doesn't protect from harassment/threats, which was the basis of defamation lawsuit.
> 
> Even during the trial he was still getting on infowars and talking about the parents being "globalists controlled actors who can turn on emotions at will".
> 
> He got caught providing funds to people who doxxed the families/showed up to harass them in person.


The first two sentences have me saying, who cares, irrelevant and covered by the 1st Amendment, however the third seems to be a clear case of behavior that is not covered by the 1st, and is fucking stupid to boot!
I respect the guy for saying what he wants, however I thought he was a complete cunt about a week after I immigrated to the USA and saw him posting videos "proving" that 9-11 was a US govt operation.


----------



## Topkick (Oct 12, 2022)

pardus said:


> The first two sentences have me saying, who cares, irrelevant and covered by the 1st Amendment, however the third seems to be a clear case of behavior that is not covered by the 1st, and is fucking stupid to boot!
> I respect the guy for saying what he wants, however I thought he was a complete cunt about a week after I immigrated to the USA and saw him posting videos "proving" that 9-11 was a US govt operation.


I agree. No problem with anyone believing/saying whatever they want. But I dont think he should be held accountable for other peoples actions. Think for yourself.


----------



## Salt USMC (Oct 13, 2022)

pardus said:


> I didn't follow that story, was it just that AJ said some dumb shit and was sued? No 1st amendment protection? Or he did something else?


It goes further than that.  Jones basically funded a coordinated harassment campaign against the parents for his show.  Hell, he paid a private investigator to produce a 100-page dossier about David Wheeler, who was one of the parents of a child at Sandy Hook.  Folks were showing up at his door demanding to see his dead son: Alex Jones 'hoax' claim led strangers to show up demanding to see his dead son, Sandy Hook father testifies
Why would you send a PI to investigate the parent of a dead child?

He intentionally inflicted distress on these families for his stupid fucking show.  An episode of Knowledge Fight from earlier this year breaks all of this down with the lawyer representing the parents: Knowledge Fight: #602: Sandy Hook Response


----------



## pardus (Oct 13, 2022)

Salt USMC said:


> It goes further than that.  Jones basically funded a coordinated harassment campaign against the parents for his show.  Hell, he paid a private investigator to produce a 100-page dossier about David Wheeler, who was one of the parents of a child at Sandy Hook.  Folks were showing up at his door demanding to see his dead son: Alex Jones 'hoax' claim led strangers to show up demanding to see his dead son, Sandy Hook father testifies
> Why would you send a PI to investigate the parent of a dead child?
> 
> He intentionally inflicted distress on these families for his stupid fucking show.  An episode of Knowledge Fight from earlier this year breaks all of this down with the lawyer representing the parents: Knowledge Fight: #602: Sandy Hook Response


That is meaningless to me, first amendment protected stupidity. He was with in his rights doing that dumb shit. 
@Cookie_ said that he paid people to knock on doors, that is deserving of being sued etc…


----------



## Cookie_ (Oct 13, 2022)

Defamation is not protected speech.
Jones admitted on the witness stand that he had known the events took place but still continued to propagate the "fake kids and crisis actors" stuff on infowars. 

To add; Jones and his legal team had chances to provide a 1st Ammendment defense against defamation, but the kept missing court deadlines and lost by default.
These recent trials in Texas and Connecticut were just for damages.


----------



## Marauder06 (Oct 13, 2022)

Salt USMC said:


> It goes further than that.  Jones basically funded a coordinated harassment campaign against the parents for his show.  Hell, he paid a private investigator to produce a 100-page dossier about David Wheeler, who was one of the parents of a child at Sandy Hook.  Folks were showing up at his door demanding to see his dead son: Alex Jones 'hoax' claim led strangers to show up demanding to see his dead son, Sandy Hook father testifies
> Why would you send a PI to investigate the parent of a dead child?
> 
> He intentionally inflicted distress on these families for his stupid fucking show.  An episode of Knowledge Fight from earlier this year breaks all of this down with the lawyer representing the parents: Knowledge Fight: #602: Sandy Hook Response


I would love to see more people prosecuted for bullshit dossiers, especially those who paid for/directed or produced them.


----------



## R.Caerbannog (Oct 13, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> I would love to see more people prosecuted for bullshit dossiers, especially those who paid for/directed or produced them.


*Alphabet bois sweating profusely*


----------



## ThunderHorse (Oct 13, 2022)

Salt USMC said:


> It goes further than that.  Jones basically funded a coordinated harassment campaign against the parents for his show.  Hell, he paid a private investigator to produce a 100-page dossier about David Wheeler, who was one of the parents of a child at Sandy Hook.  Folks were showing up at his door demanding to see his dead son: Alex Jones 'hoax' claim led strangers to show up demanding to see his dead son, Sandy Hook father testifies
> Why would you send a PI to investigate the parent of a dead child?
> 
> He intentionally inflicted distress on these families for his stupid fucking show.  An episode of Knowledge Fight from earlier this year breaks all of this down with the lawyer representing the parents: Knowledge Fight: #602: Sandy Hook Response


Fake dossiers, ain't that some shit? Now put Comey in prison.


----------



## Cookie_ (Nov 20, 2022)

We don't have an all encompassing mass shootings thread, so I'm sharing this here.

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...UQFnoECC8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3hcsXKexbr8YvQTCr6lKjE

One of my best friends had planned for our friend group to meet there after the drag show last night to play pool, but called for a rain check because her girlfriend was sick.

Not sure who all is in the hospital/dead right now, but my friend does know a few of those killed/injured. She's still trying to track down two other girls she's friends with.

From what she's gathered, shooter made his way in the door unnoticed fired at the bar area a couple times, killing the bartender who rushed him, and then started shooting at the dance floor. Two people who weren't hit at the bar then rushed him and disarmed him/beat his ass until the cops got there a few minutes later.

News reports are saying it was an AR, but she's hearing from people there that it may have been a shotgun.


----------



## Marauder06 (Nov 20, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> We don't have an all encompassing mass shootings thread, so I'm sharing this here.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...UQFnoECC8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3hcsXKexbr8YvQTCr6lKjE
> 
> ...


Glad you and your friends literally dodged a bullet.


----------



## policemedic (Nov 21, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> We don't have an all encompassing mass shootings thread, so I'm sharing this here.
> 
> https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&sou...UQFnoECC8QAQ&usg=AOvVaw3hcsXKexbr8YvQTCr6lKjE
> 
> ...



Do you know if they wand customers coming into the bar?


----------



## Cookie_ (Nov 21, 2022)

Was waiting until a bit more came out through the media before I'd share this. Here's a write-up of the guy that stopped the shooting. Former army major, runs a brewery in town. 

His daughter's boyfriend was one of those killed. 

Of the other victims, I knew the two bartenders just in passing. They were friends of friends.

Army Veteran Went Into ‘Combat Mode’ to Disarm the Club Q Gunman


----------



## Cookie_ (Nov 21, 2022)

policemedic said:


> Do you know if they wand customers coming into the bar?



Not that I've ever seen, but there's very few places in town that even have armed security, let alone wands.

The places that do tend to be the clubs frequented by college kids and army enlisted; those are usually the spots that fights tend to happen.

This bar is pretty out of the way. It's behind a strip mall that's behind a 7-11 off the main road.


----------



## policemedic (Nov 21, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> Not that I've ever seen, but there's very few places in town that even have armed security, let alone wands.
> 
> The places that do tend to be the clubs frequented by college kids and army enlisted; those are usually the spots that fights tend to happen.
> 
> This bar is pretty out of the way. It's behind a strip mall that's behind a 7-11 off the main road.



Thanks.

I'm not a fan of wanding; I think it removes the customer's ability to effectively defend themselves.  I also think it does nothing to prevent a deliberate attack.  That's why I was curious.


----------



## Ooh-Rah (Nov 21, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> Was waiting until a bit more came out through the media before I'd share this. Here's a write-up of the guy that stopped the shooting. Former army major, runs a brewery in town.
> 
> His daughter's boyfriend was one of those killed.
> 
> ...


Here’s the NYTimes text for those without a subscription.

COLORADO SPRINGS — Richard M. Fierro was at a table in Club Q with his wife, daughter and friends on Saturday, watching a drag show, when the sudden flash of gunfire ripped across the nightclub and instincts forged during four combat deployments in Iraq and Afghanistan instantly kicked in. Fight back, he told himself, protect your people.

In an interview at his house on Monday, where his wife and daughter were still recovering from injuries, Mr. Fierro, 45, who spent 15 years as an Army officer and left as a major in 2013, according to military records, described charging through the chaos at the club, tackling the gunman and beating him bloody with the gunman’s own gun.
“I don’t know exactly what I did, I just went into combat mode,” Mr. Fierro said, shaking his head as he stood in his driveway, an American flag hanging limp in the freezing air. “I just know I have to kill this guy before he kills us.”

The authorities are holding Anderson Lee Aldrich, 22, on charges of killing five people, and say that 18 more people were injured in a rampage at the club that lasted only a few minutes. The death toll could have been much higher, officials said on Sunday, if patrons of the bar had not stopped the gunman.

“He saved a lot of lives,” Mayor John Suthers said of Mr. Fierro. The mayor said he had spoken to Mr. Fierro and was struck by his humility. “I have never encountered a person who engaged in such heroic actions and was so humble about it.”
It was supposed to be a chill family night out — the combat veteran and his wife, Jess, joined their daughter, Kassandra, her longtime boyfriend Raymond Green Vance, and two family friends to watch one of his daughter’s friends perform a drag act.

It was Mr. Fierro’s first time at a drag show, and he was digging it. He had spent 15 years in the Army, and now relished his role as a civilian and a father, watching one of his daughter’s old high-school friends perform.
“These kids want to live that way, want to have a good time, have at it,” he said as he described the night. “I’m happy about it because that is what I fought for, so they can do whatever they hell they want.”
Mr. Fierro was trying to get better at going out. In Iraq and Afghanistan he’d been shot at, seen roadside bombs shred trucks in his platoon, and lost friends. He was twice awarded the Bronze Star.

The wars were both past and still present. There were things he would never forget. For a long time after coming home, crowds put him on edge. He couldn’t help to be vigilant. In restaurants he sat against the wall, facing the door. No matter how much he tried to relax, part of him was always ready for an attack, like an itch that could not be scratched.

He was too often distrustful, quick to anger. It had been hell on his wife and daughter. He was working on it. There was medication and sessions with a psychologist. He got rid of all the guns in the house. He grew his hair out long and grew a long, white goatee to distance himself from his days in uniform.
He and his wife ran a successful local brewery called Atrevida Beer Co. and he had a warm relationship with his daughter and her longtime boyfriend. But he also accepted that war would always be with him.

But that night at Club Q, he was not thinking of war at all. The women were dancing. He was joking with his friends. Then the shooting started.
It was a staccato of flashes by the front door, the familiar sound of small-arms fire. Mr. Fierro knew it too well. Without thinking, he hit the floor, pulling his friend down with him. Bullets sprayed across the bar, smashing bottles and glasses. People screamed. Mr. Fierro looked up and saw a figure as big as a bear, easily more than 300 pounds, wearing body armor and carrying a rifle a lot like the one he had carried in Iraq. The shooter was moving through the bar toward a door leading to a patio where dozens of people had fled.

The long-suppressed instincts of a platoon leader surged back to life. He raced across the room, grabbed the gunman by a handle on the back of his body armor, pulled him to the floor and jumped on top of him.
“Was he shooting at the time? Was he about to shoot? I don’t know,” Mr. Fierro said. “I just knew I had to take him down.
The two crashed to the floor. The gunman’s military-style rifle clattered just out of reach. Mr. Fierro started to go for it, but then saw the gunman come up with a pistol in his other hand.
“I grabbed the gun out of his hand and just started hitting him in the head, over and over,” Mr. Fierro said.

As he held the man down and slammed the pistol down on his skull, Mr. Fierro started barking orders. He yelled for another club patron, using a string of expletives, to grab the rifle then told the patron to start kicking the gunman in the face. A drag dancer was passing by, and Mr. Fierro said he ordered her to stomp the attacker with her high heels. The whole time, Mr. Fierro said, he kept pummeling the shooter with the pistol while screaming obscenities.

What allowed him to throw aside all fear and act? He said he has no idea. Probably those old instincts of war, that had burdened him for so long at home, suddenly had a place now that something like war had come to his hometown.
“In combat, most of the time nothing happens, but it’s that mad minute, that mad minute, and you are tested in that minute. It becomes habit,” he said. “I don’t know how I got the weapon away from that guy, no idea. I’m just a dude, I’m a fat old vet, but I knew I had to do something.”
When police arrived a few minutes later, the gunman was no longer struggling, Mr. Fierro said. Mr. Fierro said he feared that he had killed him.

Mr. Fierro was covered in blood. He got up and frantically lurched around in the dark, looking for his family. He spotted his friends on the floor. One had been shot several times in the chest and arm. Another had been shot in the leg.

As more police filed in, Mr. Fiero said he started yelling like he was back in combat. Casualties. Casualties. I need a medic here now. He yelled to the police that the scene was clear, the shooter was down, but people needed help. He said he took tourniquets from a young police officer and put them on his bleeding friends. He said he tried to speak calmly to them as he worked, telling them they would be OK.
He spied his wife and daughter on the edge of the room, and was about to go to them when he was tackled.

Officers rushing into the chaotic scene had spotted a blood-spattered man with a handgun, not knowing if he was a threat. They put him in handcuffs and locked him in the back of a police car for what seemed like more than an hour. He said he screamed and pleaded to be let go so that he could see his family.

Eventually, he was freed. He went to the hospital with his wife and daughter, who had only minor injuries. His friends were there, and are still there, in much more serious condition. They were all alive. But his daughter’s boyfriend was nowhere to be found. In the chaos they had lost him. They drove back to the club, searching for him, they circled familiar streets, hoping they would find him walking home. But there was nothing.
The family got a call late Sunday from his mother. He had died in the shooting.

When Mr. Fierro heard, he said, he held his daughter and cried.
In part he cried because he knew what lay ahead. The families of the dead, the people who were shot, had now been in war, like he had. They would struggle like he and so many of his combat buddies had. They would ache with misplaced vigilance, they would lash out in anger, never be able to scratch the itch of fear, be torn by the longing to forget and the urge to always remember.
“My little girl, she screamed and I was crying with her,” he said. “Driving home from the hospital I told them, ‘Look, I’ve gone through this before, and down range, when this happens, you just get out on the next patrol. You need to get it out of your mind.’ That is how you cured it. You cured it by doing more. Eventually you get home safe. But here I worry there is no next patrol. It is harder to cure. You are already home.”


----------



## Steve1839 (Nov 23, 2022)

From the Denver Post...

"The person suspected of killing five and wounding 18 after opening fire in a gay nightclub in Colorado Springs is nonbinary, their defense attorney wrote in court filings Tuesday."

Dame mentioned that this was probably the case when we discussed the matter a day or two ago....


----------



## Devildoc (Nov 23, 2022)

Steve1839 said:


> From the Denver Post...
> 
> "The person suspected of killing five and wounding 18 after opening fire in a gay nightclub in Colorado Springs is nonbinary, their defense attorney wrote in court filings Tuesday."
> 
> Dame mentioned that this was probably the case when we discussed the matter a day or two ago....



No, no, no.  They have it wrong.  According to a Pulse nightclub survivor, it simply has to be because of "rightwing rhetoric."

I’m a Pulse survivor. Rightwing anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric made the Club Q massacre inevitable


----------



## Steve1839 (Nov 23, 2022)

Devildoc said:


> No, no, no.  They have it wrong.  According to a Pulse nightclub survivor, it simply has to be because of "rightwing rhetoric."
> 
> I’m a Pulse survivor. Rightwing anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric made the Club Q massacre inevitable


The Denver Post would never make a mistake like that...the Rocky Mountain Pravda could not bear such a thing...


----------



## Cookie_ (Nov 23, 2022)

Steve1839 said:


> From the Denver Post...
> 
> "The person suspected of killing five and wounding 18 after opening fire in a gay nightclub in Colorado Springs is nonbinary, their defense attorney wrote in court filings Tuesday."
> 
> Dame mentioned that this was probably the case when we discussed the matter a day or two ago....



I'll wait for more to come out as they scrub the shooter's social medias, but this really seems like an attempt to avoid the hate crime charge sticking.

That's a federal charge so avoiding that would keep him from going to a federal pen. Given the publicity of the case, he wouldn't be able to go to FCC Florence (unless ADMAX, which is unlikely), so he'd been sent to another geographic location away from his family.



Devildoc said:


> No, no, no.  They have it wrong.  According to a Pulse nightclub survivor, it simply has to be because of "rightwing rhetoric."
> 
> I’m a Pulse survivor. Rightwing anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric made the Club Q massacre inevitable



There's a big difference between the rhetoric of "I don't think trans kids should play in a sport that doesn't match their birth gender" and "trans people/drag queens are all pedophile groomers trying to molest your kids".

That second example is one that is being expressed right now as an excuse for why the shooter did it.

ETA: This is the type of thing I'm talking about. I'm sure there's people where any disagreement with what they think is ok for gay people would call that "hurtful rhetoric", but I'm only talking about this stuff. 
The "grooming event" was a brunch the club has been doing on Sundays for roughly 5 years. It's not something targeted at kids, and it's also pretty tame (basically Disney drag usually).


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595100985252511744


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## Muppet (Nov 23, 2022)

I'll wait for the investigation but, as always, media will blame guns and right wing domestic violence, ad nauseam. Tin foil hat on though, seems like when folks are waking up, shit like this, or a new covid issue, anything to get minds off the real issue of the government doing nasty and illegal things but hey, guns are bad, Maga Republicans are bad, lord Fauci is king, masks work.


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## Devildoc (Nov 23, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> I'll wait for more to come out as they scrub the shooter's social medias, but this really seems like an attempt to avoid the hate crime charge sticking.
> 
> That's a federal charge so avoiding that would keep him from going to a federal pen. Given the publicity of the case, he wouldn't be able to go to FCC Florence (unless ADMAX, which is unlikely), so he'd been sent to another geographic location away from his family.
> 
> ...



I get that, but the author of the article I posted is trying to link various data points in space when there is not evidence, yet, to suggest that as a motive for that particular shooter, in that particular event. 

I'm not denying that the rhetoric is harmful and an instigating factor in violence.


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## Andoni (Nov 23, 2022)

Muppet said:


> anything to get minds off the real issue of the government doing nasty and illegal things


So many people are leveraged by this. It's a movement ugh


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## AWP (Nov 23, 2022)

My peeps at CNN...what a trashtastic company. Stoke the fires of anything you can and stir in your bias along the way, ya' fucks. CNN is the Pakistan of news organizations.

Details are coming to light about the alleged gunman who killed five people at an LGBTQ nightclub | CNN

As I type this, the link above was edited this morning, a solid 12 hours after Ames' own lawyers stated the shooter is non-binary. I guess that muddles the narrative of a hate crime or detracts from any linkage to a right-wing or conservative hate...something.

Anywho, regardless of my commentary above, we can see for the 4,201,962nd time that CNN picks and chooses the facts in their stories, bending the news to they and their advertisers' will. 

Also, if you are sole-sourcing your news you are at best ignorant and at worst stupid.


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## Marauder06 (Nov 23, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> ETA: This is the type of thing I'm talking about. I'm sure there's people where any disagreement with what they think is ok for gay people would call that "hurtful rhetoric", but I'm only talking about this stuff.
> The "grooming event" was a brunch the club has been doing on Sundays for roughly 5 years. It's not something targeted at kids, and it's also pretty tame (basically Disney drag usually).
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595100985252511744


"Disney" drag, and it's "not something targeted at kids?" 

Those two things seem... incongruent.  Isn't Disney's primary target = kids?


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## Cookie_ (Nov 23, 2022)

Marauder06 said:


> "Disney" drag, and it's "not something targeted at kids?"
> 
> Those two things seem... incongruent.  Isn't Disney's primary target = kids?



To clarify, I'm not saying it was Disney themed drag shows, but that the style of dress/song was very much not sexual. It'd be queens dressed like Reba/Dolly doing country music as opposed to someone dressed like Cardi B doing WAP.

I threw out Disney because the last time I was there some queen was doing Adele songs dressed like Snow White.


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## AWP (Nov 23, 2022)

But Disney Drag IS a thing in drag shows, some are themed as such because some shows just have themes. 

With that said, it doesn't mean kids are involved. Some drag shows allow kids in the audience, some restrict the ages of the audience, and some are burlesque shows (and advertised/ age restricted as such).

This thread is really going off the rails...


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 23, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> I'll wait for more to come out as they scrub the shooter's social medias, but this really seems like an attempt to avoid the hate crime charge sticking.
> 
> That's a federal charge so avoiding that would keep him from going to a federal pen. Given the publicity of the case, he wouldn't be able to go to FCC Florence (unless ADMAX, which is unlikely), so he'd been sent to another geographic location away from his family.
> 
> ...


Well, the drag community does itself no favors when they have shows for kids to attend.


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## Ooh-Rah (Nov 23, 2022)

Dad is something special…


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595519454900805649


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 23, 2022)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Dad is something special…
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595519454900805649


Meth is a helleva drug...🤦‍♂️


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## Cookie_ (Nov 23, 2022)

Ooh-Rah said:


> Moving mass shooting discussion out of Gun Control thread and over to here:
> 
> School/Mass shootings are now part of our culture.


Idk why I couldn't find this thread when I was searching, so thanks.

Sidebar: nice to see mod powers are back


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## AWP (Nov 24, 2022)

I know this is only one anchor at CNN, but more support for my earlier post on this topic.

Also, the "yeah, they are claiming to be non-binary to get out of a hate crime charge" will be thrown in CNN's face at some point. Not that anyone will care, "hands up, don't shoot", but you know what I mean.


__ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595266602479616000


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## Cookie_ (Nov 24, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> Well, the drag community does itself no favors when they have shows for kids to attend.



There are thousands of things in our society that are more sexualizied and nobody bats an eye about kids attending.

Do you lose your shit if you see an 8 year old having a birthday party at hooters? Are you calling for a ban on bikinis at the beach? 

Of course not, because that'd be stupid. You understand that in example A it's that kids parents who are choosing to take them to Hooters which while sexualized is something that parent feels is okay for there kid.

You understand in example B that there's nothing inherently sexual about the human body at the beach.

So why is it drag shows seem to be inherently sexual to you? Is it because the only way you can veiw them is as a sexual demonstration?



Ooh-Rah said:


> Dad is something special…
> 
> 
> __ https://twitter.com/i/web/status/1595519454900805649



Idk if this is the same interview, but he has one going off on a tangent about his son can't be gay, because their Mormon and there aren't any guys in the Mormon church because it's against the Bible and church teaching.

Pretty sure selling pot and shooting porn goes against those too, but maybe I've just met some real uptight Mormons. 



AWP said:


> I know this is only one anchor at CNN, but more support for my earlier post on this topic.
> 
> Also, the "yeah, they are claiming to be non-binary to get out of a hate crime charge" will be thrown in CNN's face at some point. Not that anyone will care, "hands up, don't shoot", but you know what I mean.
> 
> ...



You'd think they'd have learned something from Joe "you ain't black if you don't vote for me" Biden. 
People on both sides come in all spectrums.

The shooter being non-binary(which again, I do believe is to avoid hate charges, but w/e) doesn't change the fact that they shot up a specific night club.

I'm still waiting for the social media scrub. Seems they either  deleted most everything or never had it in the first place l


----------



## Devildoc (Nov 24, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> The shooter being non-binary(which again, I do believe is to avoid hate charges, but w/e) doesn't change the fact that they shot up a specific night club.



This is why we need to wait for more info and evidence.  Apparently to some motive does not matter (New Details Emerge About Colorado Shooting Suspect).  I think it does.

If I blow up a mosque because I hate Muslims, that is a hate crime.  If I blow up a mosque because the Imam raped my wife and ate my dog, that is not a hate crime.

The fact that club is what it is should be irrelevant unless it was, in fact, a hate crime specifically targeting the attendees because they were gay (or whatever).

I am not saying that you agree/disagree; merely pointing out everyone is on the bandwagon when the investigation appears to be ongoing and there are still a lot of blanks to fill in.


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## JedisonsDad (Nov 24, 2022)

AWP said:


> I know this is only one anchor at CNN, but more support for my earlier post on this topic.
> 
> Also, the "yeah, they are claiming to be non-binary to get out of a hate crime charge" will be thrown in CNN's face at some point. Not that anyone will care, "hands up, don't shoot", but you know what I mean.
> 
> ...


There is already outrage at CNN for continuing to describe the shooter as “he” despite the preferred pronouns. People are pointing out the hypocrisy of using pronouns only when it works for them.


----------



## DA SWO (Nov 24, 2022)

Devildoc said:


> This is why we need to wait for more info and evidence.  Apparently to some motive does not matter (New Details Emerge About Colorado Shooting Suspect).  I think it does.
> 
> If I blow up a mosque because I hate Muslims, that is a hate crime.  If I blow up a mosque because the Imam raped my wife and ate my dog, that is not a hate crime.
> 
> ...


NY Times has a paywall, can you just copy/paste?

No one commented on the VA Walmart mass shooting, angry black man kills 5 co-workers; oh wait, doesn't fit the narrative.


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## JedisonsDad (Nov 24, 2022)

DA SWO said:


> NY Times has a paywall, can you just copy/paste?
> 
> No one commented on the VA Walmart mass shooting, angry black man kills 5 co-workers; oh wait, doesn't fit the narrative.


Was also a manager, not a disgruntled lowly worker.


----------



## Devildoc (Nov 24, 2022)

@DA SWO 

COLORADO SPRINGS — The suspect accused of fatally shooting five people at an L.G.B.T.Q. nightclub before being tackled and pistol-whipped by bystanders sat slumped during a first court appearance on Wednesday, bruised, swollen and uttering slurred responses to a judge’s brief questions.
The suspect, Anderson Lee Aldrich, 22, appeared on video from jail and was ordered held without bond. The accused shooter, who is being held on suspicion of first-degree murder and hate crimes, is expected to be formally charged at a hearing on Dec. 6.
New details emerged about the suspect as the small, close-knit L.G.B.T.Q. community in this conservative city hoisted a giant rainbow flag outside City Hall to grieve the attack at Club Q, which had been an oasis for many.
Public defenders representing the accused shooter disclosed in court papers made public late on Tuesday that their client identified as nonbinary and used they-them pronouns. One footnote in the filings said that “for the purposes of all formal filings,” their client “will be addressed as Mx. Aldrich.”

At a news conference outside the courthouse, District Attorney Michael J. Allen said the suspect’s gender identity would not affect his approach to the case or influence whether he files hate-crimes charges.
“I’m looking at evidence,” he said. “That’s what we look at when we make filing decisions.”
Prosecutors have not said what they believed the motive was for the attack.

Lawyers for the suspect did not respond to requests for comment.
Kristen Prata Browde, a co-chair of the National Trans Bar Association, said that a suspect’s gender identity should have no bearing on whether they can be prosecuted for a hate crime in the Club Q shooting.
“The motive for a crime isn’t dependent on whether you are or are not a member of a protected class,” Ms. Prata Browde said. “It legally has no significance, as far as whether the actions of this individual fit within the law regarding hate crimes.”
She and other legal experts said it would be best for the court and prosecutors to respect the suspect’s preferred pronouns and gender identity, and treat them “like any other defendant.”
https://www.nytimes.com/2022/11/23/...on=CompanionColumn&contentCollection=Trending
https://www.nytimes.com/interactive...on=CompanionColumn&contentCollection=Trending
​
Stan Garnett, the former district attorney in Boulder County, Colo., said he did not know of any legal rules that required Colorado prosecutors or a judge to honor a defendant’s pronouns or use “Mx.” but said “it would be very bad form to ignore a suspect’s self-identification.”
When the suspect was arrested, the police listed five potential counts of murder and five counts of what Colorado state law refers to as “bias-motivated” crimes, meaning that they were motivated at least in part by bias concerning a victim’s race, nationality, religion, disability, sexual orientation or gender identity. Such crimes are more widely known as hate crimes.
According to the police and witnesses, the attacker, clad in body armor, burst into the club just before midnight on Saturday and opened fire with a long gun, killing five people and injuring 18 others before being tackled by people inside the club.
One club patron, an Army veteran, grabbed a handgun from the assailant and pummeled them bloody, and told another person to kick the suspect in the face — interventions that the authorities said had saved lives.

Image





Club Q on Sunday. Credit...Daniel Brenner for The New York Times





In the wake of the attack, survivors and their families have focused on whether the suspect’s family or law-enforcement officials could have intervened before the attack, and whether Colorado’s red flag laws could have been used to seize weapons from the suspect.
Law enforcement officials have said the suspect was arrested last year outside Colorado Springs after the suspect’s mother reported being threatened by the suspect about a homemade bomb and other weapons. A news release from the El Paso County Sheriff about the 2021 incident described a frightening scene, with nearby houses evacuated, and said that a negotiation team was used to make an arrest.

The suspect was not prosecuted. Court records involving the threat have been sealed.
Interviews and public records revealed that the suspect had a troubled childhood marked by frequent moves. The suspect’s mother and father divorced when the suspect was less than 2 years old. Each parent had problems with substance abuse and a history of arrests.
The suspect was born Nicholas Brink, but legally changed their name to Anderson Lee Aldrich as a teenager in Bexar County, Texas, according to court documents. (The name change was reported earlier by The Washington Post.)
In 2016, the suspect’s grandparents, acting as guardians, referred to the suspect as male in court documents they filed in a Texas court to request a name change. “Minor wishes to protect himself + his future from any connections to birth father + his criminal history,” the grandparents wrote to the court. “Father has had no contact with minor for several years.”
By that time, the suspect’s father, Aaron Franklin Brink, had been arrested numerous times in California on charges related to drug use and erratic driving, court records show.

Mr. Brink said in an interview at his home in San Diego that his ex-wife, Laura Voepel, told him years ago that their child had changed their name because they were embarrassed by their father. Mr. Brink said Ms. Voepel later told him that their child had died, and that he believed that to be the case until several months ago, when Mr. Brink and the suspect reconnected by phone.
Mr. Brink said the phone call devolved into an argument, and at one point his child threatened to beat him up.  Yet Mr. Brink said the conversation ended amicably.
Mr. Brink, who said he had worked as a pornographic actor and was now a mixed martial arts coach, described himself as religious and a conservative Republican who condemned gun violence. He acknowledged that he had voiced strong disapproval of gay people when the child was younger. Even so, in the interview Mr. Brink expressed sympathy for the families of the victims in the club shooting.


----------



## ThunderHorse (Nov 24, 2022)

Cookie_ said:


> There are thousands of things in our society that are more sexualizied and nobody bats an eye about kids attending.
> 
> Do you lose your shit if you see an 8 year old having a birthday party at hooters? Are you calling for a ban on bikinis at the beach?
> 
> ...



If you take your kid to hooters for his 8th Birthday, you're a gaping asshole. (Same for Twin Peaks) If you take your kid to a drag show, you're a gaping asshole (that includes parents who may be of the lesbian or gay variety)

If you can't understand why taking your kid to a drag show shouldn't have them removed from the home, that's up there with pushing puberty blockers on your toddler because they happen to say they're the opposite gender for a couple days.  It is child abuse and nothing else to describe it.

Bikinis at the beach?  Are you serious? _Now if you had said fat germans in speedos and socks, that would be different._



Devildoc said:


> Mr. Brink said in an interview at his home in San Diego that his ex-wife, Laura Voepel, told him years ago that their child had changed their name because they were embarrassed by their father. Mr. Brink said Ms. Voepel later told him that their child had died, and that he believed that to be the case until several months ago, when Mr. Brink and the suspect reconnected by phone.
> 
> Mr. Brink said the phone call devolved into an argument, and at one point his child threatened to beat him up.  Yet Mr. Brink said the conversation ended amicably.
> 
> Mr. Brink, who said he had worked as a pornographic actor and was now a mixed martial arts coach, described himself as religious and a conservative Republican who condemned gun violence. He acknowledged that he had voiced strong disapproval of gay people when the child was younger. Even so, in the interview Mr. Brink expressed sympathy for the families of the victims in the club shooting.



So basically that interview posted all over twitter was just clickbait and unnecessary, especially since he doesn't even know his kid at all.



DA SWO said:


> NY Times has a paywall, can you just copy/paste?
> 
> No one commented on the VA Walmart mass shooting, angry black man kills 5 co-workers; oh wait, doesn't fit the narrative.



Work place violence, so totally okay under Democrats.  See San Bernardino regional center mass shooting.


----------



## 757 (Nov 24, 2022)

With regard to the Walmart shooting, it happened one exit down from where I live (about 1 mile/mile and a half away).

Anyway, that Walmart is super sketchy and has been for forever (my best friends mom got robbed in that parking lot, in the middle of the day, years ago). It's also the poster store for every negative Walmart stereotype from people to employees.

Luckily, nobody that I know was killed there or even knew somebody that was killed there, so that's a small positive.


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## Muppet (Nov 24, 2022)

The arrest pic of the toad from Colorado is pure gold. It's all fucking jacked up. Shame the tax payers will pay for this POS, should have curb stomped the cunt.


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## Devildoc (Nov 24, 2022)

ThunderHorse said:


> If you take your kid to hooters for his 8th Birthday, you're a gaping asshole. (Same for Twin Peaks) If you take your kid to a drag show, you're a gaping asshole (that includes parents who may be of the lesbian or gay variety)
> 
> If you can't understand why taking your kid to a drag show shouldn't have them removed from the home, that's up there with pushing puberty blockers on your toddler because they happen to say they're the opposite gender for a couple days.  It is child abuse and nothing else to describe it.
> 
> ...



The article is not clickbait in context of what I had posted previously about people calling it a hate crime.  The garbage about his family was superfluous to the point I was making.


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## ThunderHorse (Nov 24, 2022)

Devildoc said:


> The article is not clickbait in context of what I had posted previously about people calling it a hate crime.  The garbage about his family was superfluous to the point I was making.



Of course, I clipped the article part that referenced his dad on purpose as further in the thread is an interview with his supposed "dad" saying: 'my son isn't gay'.  But in the article it states that he barely knows him and thought he was dead until a phone call a few months ago.  So not calling the article clickbait, but the video interview being shared around on the twatter definitely is.


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## policemedic (Nov 25, 2022)

757 said:


> Anyway, that Walmart is super sketchy and has been for forever (my best friends mom got robbed in that parking lot, in the middle of the day, years ago). It's also the poster store for every negative Walmart stereotype from people to employees.



Why is this relevant?  Are sketchy areas more prone to workplace shootings?


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## BrassOverBolt (Nov 26, 2022)

policemedic said:


> Why is this relevant?  Are sketchy areas more prone to workplace shootings?


The perception and culture of a place can affect who's in it, whether self-induced or not...No?


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## 757 (Nov 26, 2022)

policemedic said:


> Why is this relevant?  Are sketchy areas more prone to workplace shootings?


It's relevant because this Wal Mart should be seen as an isolated incident, instead of a general trend, due to it's unique issues.

1) This area is, in general, a pretty nice one. Typically to the left of 64 is a worse area, but all the stores in the Kroeger parking lot are a lot better than the Walmart, despite being in said area. In other words, The stereotype that poverty=crime doesn't work in this instance. Also, all of the stores surrounding the Walmart are actually full of really nice employees and typically nice patrons. Heck, I frequent the Sams club and a few of my former coworkers from Target work there currently. Literally no fear of taking my family to any other store in this picture. TLDR: nice area with a really crappy store.


2) Like I mentioned above, it wasn't just the people that shopped there that happened to be "sketch" it was also the employees. Now, I get that very few people really enjoy working retail jobs (been there done that, got the T-shirt), but this Wal Mart was specifically bad. Back in my Target days, 2014-ish, the produce manager of *this* Wal Mart would shop at Target...instead of getting a discount at her own store. Why? Because we actually treated her like a human being...a manager, back in 2014. The store just reeked of toxicity from the top down. TLDR: This has been an ongoing issue within this specific store for the better part of a decade plus.

3) To conclude, I'm not shocked that this specific Wal Mart had an employee open up on his fellow employees. If you foster a work culture of selfishness, laziness, backstabbing, and rudeness, it was only a matter of time before something bad happened, unfortunately in this case with a firearm. If it happened at any other store in the above imagine, I'd be legit shocked...but this place? Not at all.


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## Diamondback 2/2 (Nov 26, 2022)

BrassOverBolt said:


> The perception and culture of a place can affect who's in it, whether self-induced or not...No?



Perception has absolutely nothing to do with school shootings.


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## BrassOverBolt (Nov 26, 2022)

Diamondback 2/2 said:


> Perception has absolutely nothing to do with school shootings.


For clarity, I was referring to the idea of a "soft target".


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