# ARMY NATIONAL GUARD (ARNG) SPECIAL FORCES (SF) UNITS



## Echo (Jun 24, 2011)

"Besides sustainment of their occupational skills, SF personnel often have additional skill
sets, including Military Free Fall (MFF), Special Operations Target Interdiction Course (SOTIC),
combat diver, Special Forces Advanced Urban Combat (SFAUC), and jumpmaster—along with
one of the most significant additional skills, operations and intelligence training. These
advanced military occupational skills are required for at least two Soldiers in all Special Forces
detachments. According to regulations, each operational detachment will have a minimum of
three jumpmasters, two SOTIC (level 1) Soldiers, two Advanced Special Operations Techniques
ASOT (level III) Soldiers. Also, all SF Soldiers will be SFAUC and ASOT (level II) qualified. For
detachments designated as MFF or combat diver, there is the additional requirement for two
MFF jumpmasters or two dive supervisors and two dive medical officers respectively.

Additionally, each Special Forces detachment will have a qualified Air Movement Officer (AMO)
and a Soldier qualified in handling hazardous materials (HAZMAT).  These are minimal
requirements for both the Guard and Active Duty Special Forces units. These additional
specialty skill sets require proficiency and sustainment training. Specialty skills are perishable,
so they require periodic requalification. Regulations do not allow specialty training to dominate a
training calendar year, so commanders must find a way to integrate this training into other
training requirements.

Besides the specialty training requirement for SF Soldiers, there is a requirement for
acquiring or sustaining other skills. All Soldiers are required to attend formal courses to aid in
their professional development, such as a Non-Commissioned Officer Course and possibly the
Operations and Intelligence Course. Language refresher and enhancement training is required
and tested annually. Regional Orientation training is a hallmark of Special Forces Soldiers.
Each Active Duty unit has the goal of deploying in theater once each fiscal year (FY); Guard SF
units have the goal of deploying every three years.

All SF members are required to have comprehensive Nuclear, Biological, and Chemical
training and to integrate this training into tactical training. Another area of special emphasis in
the Special Forces community is physical fitness. In SF, commanders are authorized to
establish fitness standards that exceed Army minimums and to conduct fitness programs
designed to increase their Soldiers’ fitness. With only scheduled monthly weekend drills for
ARNG SF and in view of all of the tasks that must be accomplished, physical fitness is largely
left to the individual."

- Excerpt from ARMY NATIONAL GUARD (ARNG) SPECIAL FORCES (SF) UNITS:
THE STANDARD AND THE FUTURE

Colonel John E. Smith
United States Army National Guard


----------



## Echo (Jun 24, 2011)

Is this "standard" actually kept at NG SF units? What about AD?


----------



## AWP (Jun 24, 2011)

Based on personal experiences I can state that COL Smith is a spineless tool who seemingly made O-6 through divine intervention. Also based on personal experiences I found one passage highly amusing, but I guess he couldn't admit to breaking the law in his own thesis.


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 24, 2011)

FF: Thank you for saying what I was thinking about the COL.

He is off base on a few things in the text you quoted Echo, but yes the "standard" is upheld at the ODA and company levels with the exception of His misspeaks.

Also, I dont know any NG SF guy on an ODA who only does a weekend (4 days) a month/2-weeks in the summer. Most of us are far more active than that...thats just the minimum.


----------



## TB1077 (Jun 24, 2011)

Surgicalcric, this does bring up questions for myself as I am interested in joining the NG.  Obviously NG SF is going to need more than a weekend a month and 2 weeks in the summer, but what can be expected.  Obviously there are variables, but I would love to know the normal expectations beyond the minimum.  It seems as though in order to keep both physical and tactical training up to standards, it would require quite a bit more time than the minimum.


----------



## AWP (Jun 24, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> FF: Thank you for saying what I was thinking about the COL.



De nada. You also know that I held back, but those observations have nothing to do with the paper. ;)


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 24, 2011)

TB1077 said:


> Surgicalcric, this does bring up questions for myself as I am interested in joining the NG. Obviously NG SF is going to need more than a weekend a month and 2 weeks in the summer, but what can be expected. Obviously there are variables, but I would love to know the normal expectations beyond the minimum. It seems as though in order to keep both physical and tactical training up to standards, it would require quite a bit more time than the minimum.



There are quite a few variables to take into consideration when talking about NG SF and the amount of time one must put forth to stay ahead of the curve.  The variables are honestly too numerous to cover in a single post so I would admonish you to search the threads here and on PS.com for NG SF topics; there is plenty to keep you busy.

That said, the amount of time people put into it varies on what they want to get out of it quite honestly, as well as what the Team SGT expects of them as a member of a team.  For instance, there are quite a few follow on schools that are necessary for an ODA to complete its mission.  These courses are handed down based on an OML (Order of Merit List) or on who is available to go.  Aside from from formal training courses and drills, where we conduct training in ABN OPS and MOS cross-training to range time, many NG SF guys work from home on team stuff trying to keep up with all the taskings and demands.

As for Physical Training, it isnt something that just gets done at 0600 for the AD guys.  They are in the gym on their own time too.  It would stand to reason that most PT is done on a persons own schedule.

Crip


----------



## x SF med (Jun 24, 2011)

TB1077 said:


> Surgicalcric, this does bring up questions for myself as I am interested in joining the NG. Obviously NG SF is going to need more than a weekend a month and 2 weeks in the summer, but what can be expected. Obviously there are variables, but I would love to know the normal expectations beyond the minimum. It seems as though in order to keep both physical and tactical training up to standards, it would require quite a bit more time than the minimum.



TB.... _*the minimum expectations for SF are excellence in everything required or requested.*_.. above the max for Skill and PT testing.... It takes what it takes, if you are worried about that, STFU and GTFA .... the normal expectations are to achieve excellence, and maintain that proficiency .... it takes what it takes... what will it take you to maintain it?

You rely on yourself, you rely on your team, you rely on your brothers - but that reliance goes bothe ways... you owe them and they owe you.... what's it gonna take to 'maintain' what's 'normal' - here are your answers - what's it going to take to maintain? whatever it takes. What's 'normal'? Normal is a town in Illinois, no shit, if you want 'normal' move there... not out of the ordinary, SOP is whatever the mission demands.

Oh, from your questions throughout this site, I don't think you will do well in SF, please try to find another line of work.


----------



## TB1077 (Jun 24, 2011)

Crip,
Thanks for the info.  I have researched this topic quite a bit (here, PS.com, and the NG forums) and I am sure there is more info that I have not seen yet, I just happened to be reading this thread and I thought I would ask as it was one of the topics at hand.  In actuality, I was not just asking for myself, but to find out in general how the NG is able to keep up with AD in regards to being fully prepared.

xSF med,
I apologize for my question.  It was not worded properly to get the information I was looking for.  It was more of a question of comparison between the NG and AD.  Thanks for your insight.

TB


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 24, 2011)

TB1077 said:


> ...In actuality, I was not just asking for myself, but to find out in general how the NG is able to keep up with AD in regards to being fully prepared.



We do it through dedication to the mission and our teammates.   Being an active NG SF guy requires us to give of our time and resources and make sacrifices in other areas the AD guys dont because of the nature of our being in the NG.

One other thing, many NG SF guys civilian careers directly benefit their 18-series MOS's.  For instance, a sister team's 18B's teach CQM to other deploying units, one of the 18C's work in construction and the other is an electrical engineer on an oil rig, one 18D is a nurse anesthetist and the other a paramedic instructor, one 18E works for Harris communications and the other is a network admin for sysco, the 18F teaches new Fox's the program they use to associate information together, the TM SGT (former 18E) is a jet propulsion engineer for NASA (yes, you read that correctly), and the TL is an attorney.

Giving you a better cross section of the team guys in my company: we have 13 LEO's (local, state, federal), 9 firefighter/paramedics, 2 nurses, 1 PA, 9 professional engineers, 2 airline pilots, 4 business owners, 6 NG SF bums (guys who go from school to deployment to schools), 9 fulltime AGR (Active Guard Reserve), and several contractors working a variety of jobs...

Aside from the MOS stuff there are near constant opportunities for guys to stay busy going places and doing things.  It is really not as difficult for those who want to stay engaged to do so; you just have to look for opportunities and be open to doing what the team needs you to do, which may not always be what you would want to do (HAZMAT, Load Mgrs Course, AMO, etc...)  Guys who pass on opportunities to help the team get passed over when the time comes for schools like MFF, SFSC, language training in Orlando, FL, etc...

Mission, men, me isnt just a mantra.


----------



## dknob (Jun 24, 2011)

I've been seriously considering 20th Group in FL. This has been a good thread. Thanks.


----------



## LM (Jun 24, 2011)

x SF med said:


> TB.... _*the minimum expectations for SF are excellence in everything required or requested.*_.. above the max for Skill and PT testing.... It takes what it takes, if you are worried about that, STFU and GTFA .... the normal expectations are to achieve excellence, and maintain that proficiency .... it takes what it takes... what will it take you to maintain it?
> 
> You rely on yourself, you rely on your team, you rely on your brothers - but that reliance goes bothe ways... you owe them and they owe you.... what's it gonna take to 'maintain' what's 'normal' - here are your answers - what's it going to take to maintain? whatever it takes. What's 'normal'? Normal is a town in Illinois, no shit, if you want 'normal' move there... not out of the ordinary, SOP is whatever the mission demands.
> 
> Oh, from your questions throughout this site, I don't think you will do well in SF, please try to find another line of work.



lol, your fuckin ruthless. I guess I better be on my toes when asking my questions then :)


----------



## dknob (Jun 24, 2011)

is there a negative connotation with being a "NG SF bum" (someone who just goes to school and deploys)?


----------



## LM (Jun 24, 2011)

dknob said:


> is there a negative connotation with being a "NG SF bum" (someone who just goes to school and deploys)?



not at all. its a dream gig actually. If I  could be a NG bum (since non-SF) I would do it in a heartbeat..


----------



## AWP (Jun 24, 2011)

dknob said:


> is there a negative connotation with being a "NG SF bum" (someone who just goes to school and deploys)?



Depends on the person and the context. The MAGSOTA debacle of the early 90's would be a negative, the guy who chases schools and deployments and still puts in time with his team would be a positive or neutral descriptor.

"Dude, where you been?"
"Guard bumming. State ADSW, JM school, working some man days prepping for AT, more man days running the range for those ROTC cadets, stuff like that."


----------



## LM (Jun 24, 2011)

I did a search here and google, nothing comes up for MAGSOTA- can you shed some light on that?


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 24, 2011)

dknob said:


> is there a negative connotation with being a "NG SF bum" (someone who just goes to school and deploys)?



Yes and no as FF stated.

Unfortunately there isnt the demand, yet, to have more guys active (not active duty but always on the go.)

I have been one since graduating the SFQC in Sep '07. I have been to every school I want (and a few I didn't because thats what my ODA needed me to do) and have my share of trips as well as having spent time teaching at our OPS DET. When I return I will probably be taking a job at Hurlburt on ADSW orders...after I get done with Jedburg and Ranger School... lol.

Not to mention trips to Orlando for 4-6 month stints to "bone up" on your target language or another language if you so desire...

3rd/20th has a good reputation across the Regiment as a whole. I think you would enjoy it there... BTW, there is quite a few ADSW jobs to be had at McDill and in SOCSOUTH if interested.

Crip


----------



## dknob (Jun 24, 2011)

Well I live in Orlando now, so I dont see 4-6 month Orlando stints as a big deal ;)  - been here since 1992 (was in Bulgaria before). I definitely know my fair share of Spanish.

I am very very interested, spoke to somebody (20th recruiter) - forgot his name. And did the PT test with a local NG recruiter (one of his contacts). Next step is going up there for the interview process. I really want this; my rifle is locked and loaded, looking down the barrel towards the target, I just havent pulled the trigger. It's been 4 years since I've been out of the 75th so forgive my hesitancy.


----------



## x SF med (Jun 24, 2011)

LM said:


> lol, your fuckin ruthless. I guess I better be on my toes when asking my questions then :)


 
I am still a member in good standing of the 1st SF Regiment, I take that very seriously.  I would not say I was so much ruthless as brutally honest.   A question about 'minimums' or 'normal' in SF is laughable, sad, and misguided...  What part of SPECIAL Forces is so difficult to fathom?  When you get to the end of your reserves, dig down and start pulling from your soul, when that's exhausted, find another deeper level to pull from...  that's the expectation in SFAS and the Q Course, on a Team, you find levels that are in other dimensions and pull from them.

...and yes, I am The Troll, ruthless and brutally honest is part of me - but then again, I'm not so different from the rest of my SF Brothers...


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 24, 2011)

x SF med said:


> ...and yes, I am The Troll, ruthless and brutally honest is part of me - but then again, I'm not so different from the rest of my SF Brothers...



Apart from not being as strikingly good looking as me, you are not so different.


----------



## x SF med (Jun 24, 2011)

cback0220 said:


> Apart from not being as strikingly good looking as me, you are not so different.


 
I do walk around naked....  you wear ladies undergarments...  rookie.


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 24, 2011)

x SF med said:


> I do walk around naked....



Having seen you with clothes I assure you no one, aside from LL, wants to see that...


----------



## LM (Jun 24, 2011)

x SF med said:


> I am still a member in good standing of the 1st SF Regiment, I take that very seriously. I would not say I was so much ruthless as brutally honest. A question about 'minimums' or 'normal' in SF is laughable, sad, and misguided... What part of SPECIAL Forces is so difficult to fathom? When you get to the end of your reserves, dig down and start pulling from your soul, when that's exhausted, find another deeper level to pull from... that's the expectation in SFAS and the Q Course, on a Team, you find levels that are in other dimensions and pull from them.
> 
> ...and yes, I am The Troll, ruthless and brutally honest is part of me - but then again, I'm not so different from the rest of my SF Brothers...



Exactly as I would hope from the elite level members :)

Question for the NG SF guys-  Do you guys run on state funds like regular units do? More directly, experiencing the lack of fundng for  non-NCOES schools that the rest of us are struggling with?


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 24, 2011)

LM said:


> Exactly as I would hope from the elite level members :)
> 
> Question for the NG SF guys- Do you guys run on state funds like regular units do? More directly, experiencing the lack of fundng for non-NCOES schools that the rest of us are struggling with?



NG SF units draw from two pots of money; one from the state and the other from USASFC (US Army SF Command.) State is responsible for certain costs while USASFC picks up others(state still controls both to a certain degree) .

At times there are money issues with sending guys to certain schools but it doesnt happen as often, or I should say hasnt happened often that I know of. I have never seen an 18-series guy not be able to attend a SF school due to lack of funds; it may be pushed to the right a class or two but they end up going.

I am sure that will change now that two wars are winding down (I am sure there is somewhere else we will be sent) and the Sec Def wants to cut the budget significantly.


----------



## AWP (Jun 24, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> NG SF units draw from two pots of money; one from the state and the other from USASFC (US Army SF Command.) State is responsible for certain costs while USASFC picks up others(state still controls both to a certain degree) .
> 
> At times there are money issues with sending guys to certain schools but it doesnt happen as often, or I should say hasnt happened often that I know of. I have never seen an 18-series guy not be able to attend a SF school due to lack of funds; it may be pushed to the right a class or two but they end up going.
> 
> I am sure that will change now that two wars are winding down (I am sure there is somewhere else we will be sent) and the Sec Def wants to cut the budget significantly.



Pre-9/11 this was a huge problem; funding and school availability. State had a nasty habit of withholding money from 3/20 and our finance guy (he's still there I think and older than dirt but smart as hell) was always fighting for what was ours and not state's. Schools...things were bad for the 18 series guys (even the Q) and next to impossible for us support guys beyond MOS and Airborne.

I don't say this to poo-poo on anyone's parade, I've been out for 10 years and really hope things have changed and will continue to be different from I experienced in the 90's, but in the Clinton-era budgets we took a back seat in everything. Conditions were only improved once we started picking up JCET missions, but even then the shift was rather subtle and changes very slow to occur.


----------



## LM (Jun 24, 2011)

Another question. One of my guys went down for a drill for the selection, I guess they have to do 3 drills consecutivly and to standard before they are transfered to that unit. Now, This guy is pretty good, i wont go into his details, but he did 1 drill and then came back with a story that doesnt sound like he would have said/done what he claims, nor whoever is in charge of the process would have said/done. Im starting to believe he is blowing smoke and didnt "pass".  Now, that alone I would never hold against the guy, but if he is indeed giving fictional accounts, that i take issue with.  As his SL, do I have any right or privelage to contact that unit and find out what exactly transpired, or even does my CO have that authority/capability?


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 24, 2011)

It depends on when he went as to whether they still have records on him.  We purge ours after 6 months, unless the individual received an NTR (never to return.)

I believe it is well within your right as his SL to call and ask WTF is up with the guy, after giving the cadre some background info.  Most of the NCOs who conduct the SFRE's are professional guys who want the Regiment filled with SF guys, not just guys with SF tabs and as such are generally willing to entertain questions about guys performance or lack thereof.

HTH

Crip


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 24, 2011)

Freefalling said:


> Pre-9/11 this was a huge problem...



We have had this discussion before, you and I; I have had it quite a few times with my TS as well.

There are quite a few of us hoping that USASFC/USASOC saw the error of their collective ways after 9.11 with regards to NGSF and that it wont return to the way it was.  There are also quite a few who are working to keep it from occurring.  If in fact it does it will be what it is and many of us will leave...and AD SF will get a lot of new faces.  I will just go back to the FD and finish my 20 years and retire.

In the beginning no one was sure the NG guys could live up to expectations; after the initial teams successes in A-stan 2002-03 and then ensuing push of ODAs to Iraq there should be little doubt in the commands mind the NG ODAs are as capable as our AD Brethren.  Each day we continue to push for increased missions and are hoping Reeder will allow us to take on some of the missions previously not pursued by the NG guys (MLE/SFLE, etc...)

We will see my friend, we will see.

Crip


----------



## LM (Jun 24, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> It depends on when he went as to whether they still have records on him. We purge ours after 6 months, unless the individual received an NTR (never to return.)
> 
> I believe it is well within your right as his SL to call and ask WTF is up with the guy, after giving the cadre some background info. Most of the NCOs who conduct the SFRE's are professional guys who want the Regiment filled with SF guys, not just guys with SF tabs and as such are generally willing to entertain questions about guys performance or lack thereof.
> 
> ...



It does help, greatly, thank you. This was just recently, this past month, so I'm sure they would keep the record. I just wasnt sure if there was some sort of non-disclosure or other reg that wouldnt allow me to know. Again, thank you.


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 24, 2011)

LM said:


> ...I just wasnt sure if there was some sort of non-disclosure or other reg that wouldnt allow me to know. Again, thank you.



There shouldnt be but without knowing which NG SF unit it was I cant be certain.

I am sure he has the contact info for the unit.  If he gives you some BS reason why he doesnt have it let me know, along with where he attended the SFRE and I will run it to ground and get you a POC.

Crip


----------



## LM (Jun 24, 2011)

will do, gonna text him right now.


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 24, 2011)

Now getting back to the original topic...



Echo said:


> Is this "standard" actually kept at NG SF units? What about AD?



Why do you ask?  You hoping for a lower "standard," one where you could make it?


----------



## Ravage (Jun 25, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> For instance, there are quite a few follow on schools that are necessary for an ODA to complete its mission.  These courses are handed down based on an OML (Order of Merit List) or on who is available to go.



If I may ask.

What does the OML exacly mean?  Is it a schedule for the different types of units to attend the whole spectrum of schools/courses that are available to them? (MFF, JTAC etc ?)


----------



## AWP (Jun 25, 2011)

Ravage said:


> If I may ask.
> 
> What does the OML exacly mean? Is it a schedule for the different types of units to attend the whole spectrum of schools/courses that are available to them? (MFF, JTAC etc ?)



I've never seen an OML apply specifically to a unit, but to individuals. I can't speak for how ODAs conduct their OML's, but in my Support Company ours was based off of mission need/ requirement and then a soldier's "status" based on his rank, APFT scores, NCOER's, etc. It could also be a little subjective.

For example, the mechanics and the signal guys would need...we'll say 4 Jumpmasters per detachment for the sake of argument and each detachment currently has 2 qualified JM's. Within those two detachments the commanders would look at their individuals so an E-7 would usually carry more weight than an E-6 for the OML unless the E-7 declines the school (unheard of) or has something where he can't attend (medical profile, personal conflict, another school). Once the detachments figure out their OML's it would go to the HQ element and the company commander, first sergeant, and training NCO would figure out who is going next across the entire company.

As a detachment commander I never personally saw a formal "on paper" OML, it was usually "We have 3 slots for JM school. SIGDET gets two because they're short and the MID gets one. Who are you guys sending?"

Again, the ODAs may run theirs differently, even conventional units may do things differently than we did, but that is how our system worked. It isn't sexy, just "need" + "best candidate."


----------



## Ravage (Jun 25, 2011)

Roger that, thank You.


----------



## Brill (Jun 25, 2011)

Echo,

What's the point of this thread?  You seem to enjoy throwing out HSLD acronyms (and colors) for the cool guy shit.  Knock it off.  It's BS like this that give us MI guys a bad name within the SOF community.  If you have an intelligent question, ask and you'll get an answer (it may or may not be the one you are looking for but I can assure you, your question will be answered) but for Pete's sake, focus!  First you ask about various joint units, 18-series, and now you're asking about SF Guard units?

If you have any SPECIFIC questions about MI soldiers supporting joint units, SF Groups, or even the 75th, I suggest you get on mispace.army.mil and look under the SOF section.

Lindy
35P4P


----------



## Ajax (Jun 26, 2011)

TB1077 said:


> Surgicalcric, this does bring up questions for myself as I am interested in joining the NG. Obviously NG SF is going to need more than a weekend a month and 2 weeks in the summer, but what can be expected. Obviously there are variables, but I would love to know the normal expectations beyond the minimum. It seems as though in order to keep both physical and tactical training up to standards, it would require quite a bit more time than the minimum.



You'll be expected to put your personal life aside and train and/or deploy with minimal support and maximum motivation and creativity.  You'll be expected to think outside the box to accomplish tasks that most AD units would simply check out a vic from TMP or get an O5 signature to take care of.  You'll be expected to rat line yourself to training with no promise of compensation.  You'll be expected to understand when you put your entire life on hold after receiving WARNO of a deployment only to have it cancelled or moved to the right at the Nth hour and be equally understanding when Group needs three bodies for a no-fail mission and gives you 72 hours to get your shit together.  You'll be expected to be technically and tactically competent and to sustain and improve your skills on your own time and your own dime.  You'll be held to a higher standard than most AD SF guys.  You'll be expected to have undying loyalty to your team and your teammates, and then the company, and then the Regiment.  If you find yourself on a team that doesn't expect this of you.....find another team or replace your team sergeant.


----------



## LM (Jun 26, 2011)

Oohhhh.. You gus are makin me wanna grab my ruck and head down to the 20th with that kinda talk...


----------



## TB1077 (Jun 26, 2011)

Ajax said:


> You'll be expected to put your personal life aside and train and/or deploy with minimal support and maximum motivation and creativity. You'll be expected to think outside the box to accomplish tasks that most AD units would simply check out a vic from TMP or get an O5 signature to take care of. You'll be expected to rat line yourself to training with no promise of compensation. You'll be expected to understand when you put your entire life on hold after receiving WARNO of a deployment only to have it cancelled or moved to the right at the Nth hour and be equally understanding when Group needs three bodies for a no-fail mission and gives you 72 hours to get your shit together. You'll be expected to be technically and tactically competent and to sustain and improve your skills on your own time and your own dime. You'll be held to a higher standard than most AD SF guys. You'll be expected to have undying loyalty to your team and your teammates, and then the company, and then the Regiment. If you find yourself on a team that doesn't expect this of you.....find another team or replace your team sergeant.


 
Great reply Ajax.  That is what I was looking for.  I was under the impression that the individual teams did whatever it took to keep themselves prepared as well as each individual soldier taking their own personal time and finances to make sure the team can rely on them.  Thank you for the insight.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 26, 2011)

Ajax said:


> You'll be expected to put your personal life aside and train and/or deploy with minimal support and maximum motivation and creativity. You'll be expected to think outside the box to accomplish tasks that most AD units would simply check out a vic from TMP or get an O5 signature to take care of. You'll be expected to rat line yourself to training with no promise of compensation. You'll be expected to understand when you put your entire life on hold after receiving WARNO of a deployment only to have it cancelled or moved to the right at the Nth hour and be equally understanding when Group needs three bodies for a no-fail mission and gives you 72 hours to get your shit together. You'll be expected to be technically and tactically competent and to sustain and improve your skills on your own time and your own dime. You'll be held to a higher standard than most AD SF guys. You'll be expected to have undying loyalty to your team and your teammates, and then the company, and then the Regiment. If you find yourself on a team that doesn't expect this of you.....find another team or replace your team sergeant.



I honestly do not believe truer words have been spoken.


----------



## Ajax (Jun 27, 2011)

Freefalling said:


> I've never seen an OML apply specifically to a unit, but to individuals. I can't speak for how ODAs conduct their OML's, but in my Support Company ours was based off of mission need/ requirement and then a soldier's "status" based on his rank, APFT scores, NCOER's, etc. It could also be a little subjective.
> 
> For example, the mechanics and the signal guys would need...we'll say 4 Jumpmasters per detachment for the sake of argument and each detachment currently has 2 qualified JM's. Within those two detachments the commanders would look at their individuals so an E-7 would usually carry more weight than an E-6 for the OML unless the E-7 declines the school (unheard of) or has something where he can't attend (medical profile, personal conflict, another school). Once the detachments figure out their OML's it would go to the HQ element and the company commander, first sergeant, and training NCO would figure out who is going next across the entire company.
> 
> ...


Our company has an OML based off of 1.  Team METL and specialty and 2.  Collective ODA OML's set by the respective Team Daddies.  This applies more to cool guy schools than admin schools (JM being an admin school).


----------



## Ajax (Jun 27, 2011)

LM said:


> Oohhhh.. You gus are makin me wanna grab my ruck and head down to the 20th with that kinda talk...


The door is open...


----------



## Echo (Jun 27, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> Now getting back to the original topic...
> 
> 
> 
> Why do you ask?  You hoping for a lower "standard," one where you could make it?



Heard there is a now a TX SF NG unit. Just curious as to how NG SF operates and trains compared to AD. Hopefully the thread ends up helping others as well.


----------



## Ajax (Jun 27, 2011)

There are actually two SF units in TX now.  Both C Co's, from two different battalions.  How that shit makes any sense with the already convoluted NG chain of command is beyond me, but I can tell you they've got talent and support.  I've got some great friends down there that I'd walk a hard mile with any day.

As far as AD comparison goes, my previous statements stand.  Oo-rah and so forth.


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 27, 2011)

Echo said:


> Just curious as to how NG SF operates and trains compared to AD. Hopefully the thread ends up helping others as well.



So what you are saying is that you failed to read any of the other threads here comparing NG and AD SF...

Hopefully the "others" who follow after you will not follow in your steps of asking questions previously covered elsewhere on this board.

Go do PT...


----------



## AWP (Jun 27, 2011)

Echo said:


> Just curious as to how NG SF operates and trains compared to AD. Hopefully the thread ends up helping others as well.



Are you serious or are you just trying to pull everyone's chain?


----------



## LM (Jun 27, 2011)

Ajax said:


> The door is open...



I know, I know, ive got the comomon scenario though, so i wont go into it, no question i can ask hasnt been asked 1k times before and that i dont already know the answer to- ive just got to make the solid mental commitment.

Anyway- I think Ive got a question to go back on course-

So, Im NG,  Ive got another SPC thats only been NG, but feels he wants to go AD 18X.  Im trying to tell him he is probably better off with NG than AD so he can finish his degree. He is gonna have to put basically the same time in for training ect anyway, why not do it NG and get the college done, and if he still feels he wants AD, then he can always volunteer for deployments ect, or go actual AD without issue.

also, I havent said this to him, but i think its probably better to try it NG first, if for some reason he doesnt make the cut, I will take him back and he can re-evaluate what he wants while still doin a better than line company grunt mission (he is not B4 yet BTW)

Now, somone correct me if im wrong, but if he goes AD 18x contract- and does not make it, what happens to him then?  regular line company at the discretion of AD?


----------



## AWP (Jun 27, 2011)

LM said:


> Anyway- I think Ive got a question to go back on course-
> 
> So, Im NG, Ive got another SPC thats only been NG, but feels he wants to go AD 18X. Im trying to tell him he is probably better off with NG than AD so he can finish his degree. He is gonna have to put basically the same time in for training ect anyway, why not do it NG and get the college done, and if he still feels he wants AD, then he can always volunteer for deployments ect, or go actual AD without issue.
> 
> ...



Do you mean have him go NG SF and then AD SF after he finishes his degree? We didn't care for that on the support side, but we also had far less time and money in one of our guys than an 18 series, so I'll let them answer that.

As to failing out of 18x, yes he becomes "needs of the Army" at that point.


----------



## LM (Jun 27, 2011)

Not so much as an intentional NG-AD after degree, but accomplish what he wants now, while being able to get a degree.  If after he has both done, BA and Q'd, he can decide for himself if he really still wants to be AD, as he doesnt know what AD is yet. All he knows about AD is the few weeks he goes on orders while in support of a few schools at the local base, and AT training that is mediocre at best where his former Company BBQ'd and got shitfaced every night and training was done when the sun went down..  Does that kinda make sense what im  trying to say?

The kid is a PT stud, and smart, smartass actually, and tactically sound so far, but ive only had him for 6-7 months now and barely getting to show him what the real deal is


----------



## x SF med (Jun 27, 2011)

LM said:


> ...
> So, Im NG, Ive got another SPC thats only been NG, but feels he wants to go AD 18X. Im trying to tell him he is probably better off with NG than AD so he can finish his degree. He is gonna have to put basically the same time in for training ect anyway, why not do it NG and get the college done, and if he still feels he wants AD, then he can always volunteer for deployments ect, or go actual AD without issue.
> 
> also, I havent said this to him, but i think its probably better to try it NG first, if for some reason he doesnt make the cut, I will take him back and he can re-evaluate what he wants while still doin a better than line company grunt mission (he is not B4 yet BTW)
> ...



If he wants to be AD/RA...  then go AD/RA...  don't take  a manning/training slot from the NG company if he is not going to fill the commitment, just to get a degree...  fulfill his current commitment and get his degree, then re enlist AD/RA for an SF contract...  My NG SF brothers don't need slot hogs taking time, money and manpower just to get quaified and jump to one of the RA Groups.   That's selfish, and dishonest as hell...  if you make the commitment, make it ...  if you get put through SFAS and the QCourse as an NG soldier, fulfill your commitment to them, then go to an AD unit if you are still eligible and that's what you want to do.  This is a sore spot for SF...  a little research on your part would have steered you away from even thinking to post it, again.

And, yes, Needs of Big Green if you fail.


----------



## LM (Jun 27, 2011)

post what again? different guy different situation

i see your point of taking slots. but really in the end whats the difference. Im sure if he makes it through everything his views will change. Its 1 Army, whether AD or NG, do you really feel their is lack of commitment because he wants to do it fulltime as opposed to NG time (whatever NG time may be to a NG SF unit)


----------



## x SF med (Jun 27, 2011)

LM said:


> post what again? different guy different situation



LM, I'm calling bullshit on your post - it's the same argument, just a different day.
1. He's NG, if he takes a NG SF slot, fulfill or fail there.
2. if he takes an AD SF slot, fulfill or fail there.
3. The degree is personal, unless he's bucking for OCS, then he needs to fulfill his current obligation to the unit he is in.
4. SF is very tight - and the more granular you get (down to Team level) the tighter it gets.
Taking that slot and then bailing for AD is Bravo Foxtrot, and leaves the team screwed for that slot until a new person can make it through the pipeline...

No it's not a new situation - it's the exact same one with a different avatar asking it. I don't care if you are his SL/TL, you are asking the best way to screw a very hard working portion of the 1st SF Regiment so that this kid can get a degree, get trained and then be AD.

The Honor and Integrity of the individual, and you come into question... failure in either or both of those are disqualifiers for service in the 1st SF Regiment.

Don't even think about arguing any more - you dug your friggin hole, put down the e-tool and prepare for more incomming fire.


----------



## LM (Jun 27, 2011)

sorry boss, for asking specific questions in a specific thread. i do not however see it as a question of my honor and integrity, as mine are beyond reproach on both accounts. I wants whats best for him, and the Army, did you miss that part about 1 Army, whether AD or NG? Do you not feel that way?

Beyond your chest pounding posts, you did however give me the answer i was looking for, from your POV.  There are however many other 18 series guys in here, i would like to hear an honest assessment from them as well, and hopefullly its not just a backing of their 18 series brother, but an honest, "this is what i feel, and this is how the guys in my tm, ect. feel" and possibly maybe even someone that has thought and did the ssame thing, and why they chose to go AD, stay NG or some other combination


----------



## x SF med (Jun 27, 2011)

I will honor your request and let other SF guys tell you what they believe - and the snarky friggin comment about 'backing an 18 series brother' was completely uncalled for, I was stating the feeling of the SF community... screw your "One Army" bullshit... the funding and the training budget are split, the State gets screwed hard when they have to repay Big Green for 2 years of Training an SF Soldier who is supposed to be available for them for 6 years, leaves immediately and that slot that was manned as IAT is open again... because that individual decided they wanted to steal the resources of that NG SF BN/Company/Team to take an AD slot.... The kid has to make his own decisions, and trying to game the system and screwing an already undermanned, overtasked and budget strapped NG SF Company is wrong, PERIOD. FUCKING. DOT. Is it now clear why I feel this way.


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 27, 2011)

LM:

In the interest of not supporting a Brother for the sake of it and since I am a NG guy...

While I can appreciate what you are saying, and believe - more so hope - that it is just a matter of semantics on your behalf that has caused the above noted confusion, the matter at hand is why the lad wants to be SF and whether he can best be served in the NG or AD. I try not to persuade guys either way but simply lay down the pros and cons of each and let the individual make up their mind - in the end it is their commitment or lack thereof we are talking about. Many of the pros and cons to each can be found on SS.com or on PS.com if you are looking for more research or want to point the SPC to where it can be found.

I will tell you, as others before me here and in past threads on this topic have attest to, using NG SF slots to get Q'd then jumping ship, for whatever reason, is frowned upon. Most SF companies can only send a certain number of people to SFAS/SFQC each class/year because of budgetary constraints which are not present on AD. To assist in narrowing the pool of dedicated persons most if not all the individual SF Companies will run a SFRE (Special Forces Readiness Eval) for prospective candidates in the hope that in 18-24 months there will be a Special Forces soldier filling a hole on an ODA until their commitment is fulfilled. It is one Army, one Fight until it comes to manning and budgets. Neither of the NG Groups receive near the operational, training, or travel budgets (not talking about P&A) that the AD Groups receive from USASFC and as such cannot afford to waste time or resources on such people.

If he plans to finish his commitment to the NG then head over to AD I am sure one of the admin guys will assist him in the paperwork and obtaining the necessary signatures. However if his plans are to use NG training slots and dollars IOT get his Tab and degree at the same time (which will not happen in the SFQC BTW) then to jump ship while clearing Ft Bragg I would tell him to figure out the process on his own time/dime and get the necessary signatures from the Group Commander himself.

HTH,

Crip


----------



## LM (Jun 27, 2011)

first i owe an apology, I do now see that this has been asked many times before. AS you can see, ive only been here a few days and all my reading/searching has been B4 specifc, but as i go into the past pages of SF section, I see this has been asked many times before. I have about 15 windows open now that look like they already addressed this question. and im writing this part w/o reading your above repsonce yet.

after reading above-
loyalty to the team- company/reg comments you and everyone has already made clear, is why i made the backing 18x brothers comment
moron? whatever you say boss, enjoy your day. ill be back if i have any more questions that were not previously answered, enjoy your day :)


----------



## LM (Jun 27, 2011)

Thanks crip, you posted as i was responding, just wanted to acknowledge that i saw the post.


----------



## AWP (Jun 27, 2011)

LM, I'll address the "College while in the NG"angle because I was once there.

In a SOF unit, or even those with a high optempo in the NG, you have two types of college students: Those who put the unit ahead of themselves and those who put themselves ahead of the unit.

Guess which one made for a better soldier?

If you want to be in the Guard and earn a degree, by all means go for it. I would say this to anyone.

If you want to be in a SOF unit, or high optempo unit in the Guard, and earn a degree I would say to stay home or go elsewhere. I saw very few guys balance both, VERY FEW, because of the demands placed upon them by both combined with life demands such as a family, bills, or a job. I'm sure there are a few "Went to college while going through the Q Course" guys out there, but I'm not aware of them and I don't know of any from my 10 years as a support guy in an NG SF battalion. You either had the degree and then went to the Q or completed the Q and then went for your degree, I didn't see the "I'll take a class this semester and then go to SFAS the next semester and then knock out another 2 classes while waiting on SFQC orders" kind of guys.

And those guys who put college first, even if they were good soldiers? We hated them. They were not promoted, they didn't go to schools, they made it clear that they wanted the college money and a cool hat. I begged to deploy, I begged for schools, and college was secondary to me. Did I pay for it in college? Yes I did, but the reality is that you can be a good soldier in the Guard or a good college student, but you can't do both. Even my OCS classmates who were in college while going to the Guard OCS program saw themselves making a choice at times: Guard commitments or study for a class. Almost all of us took a hit in our GPAs while attending OCS and these are guys who wanted to be there and understood the ramifications of their decisions....and they weren't even exposed to the demands of being in SF.

Tell your buddy to pick one or the other.


----------



## Crusader74 (Jun 27, 2011)

A question if I may.. Do AD ODA's supply  Cadre to NG ODA's or are they totally separate entities?


----------



## LM (Jun 27, 2011)

I appreciate the insight Gents. and as I am reading older posts I have not come across one yet that directly affects my questions.

I will say this though, it does seem, as though going AD-NG or vice versa is frowned upon if the intentions were there from the beginning. Now have you guys know of or been in the position that you or someone you know of, thought about making the switch, and did they go through with it? or I assume most fulfill the commitment before doing so i presume. Because i totally agree with it, and im sure once you get to that "place" your already aware of the resentment an outcome of the action of switching, and already have made that commitment to the team your/themselves and would not do such a thing.

so another question- those of you that put off college in order to finish the Q, do you now regret not getting your degree and then doing, or are you glad you finished the Q and then persued the BA/MA?


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 27, 2011)

I have been working on my Masters for quite a while now but cant seem to stay stopped long enough to finish. No I do not regret not having finished it; my commitment is to my ODA. The MA can wait until my body is broken, again...

I know quite a few guys who have gone from the NG to AD and know plenty of AD guys who came to the NG after their AD commitment was up... There are more of the latter than the former, from my perspective. Other guys may have a different view on it.


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 27, 2011)

Irish said:


> A question if I may.. Do AD ODA's supply Cadre to NG ODA's or are they totally separate entities?



Cadre for what?


----------



## LM (Jun 27, 2011)

Thankls for the help. Hope I didnt ruffle too many feathers in the process ;)


----------



## dknob (Jun 27, 2011)

cleric, I definitely could use some 1on1 time in the near future regarding this decision.


----------



## x SF med (Jun 27, 2011)

LM said:


> first i owe an apology, I do now see that this has been asked many times before. AS you can see, ive only been here a few days and all my reading/searching has been B4 specifc, but as i go into the past pages of SF section, I see this has been asked many times before. I have about 15 windows open now that look like they already addressed this question. and im writing this part w/o reading your above repsonce yet.
> 
> after reading above-
> loyalty to the team- company/reg comments you and everyone has already made clear, is why i made the backing 18x brothers comment
> moron? whatever you say boss, enjoy your day. ill be back if i have any more questions that were not previously answered, enjoy your day :)



I re-read and edited the last line of my post. Apologies for the comment which is now gone.

I was an AD only SF guy... my strong feelings on the NG side are due to an high Optempo, tough Training/manning situation, and the fact that an average of 20 months and a huge chunk of dollars are spent training each SF Soldier... no matter NG or AD... and there is no getting around that- have been abused by some to the detriment of a very important and committed part of the SF Regiment that is funded on two fronts and has commitments to both.

To your comment re: backing 18 series brothers - yes we do, we have very tightly shared brotherhood... but if one of us is wrong, we will address it, it will be taken care of and apologies will be made if necessary... this brotherhood is one of the things that sets all SOF people apart from most of the military, it's found in Rangers, PJs, CCT, Recon, NSW, etc... there is a bond to those brothers by choice that is forged by commitment and can not be described to anybody who does not have it... and that's just when you get out of training, once it gets forged by time on a Team it's just part of your 'self'.

I put my BA 'on-hold' to enlist and will never regret it, my  total education by joining the Army and specifically SF was more complete than any University could deliver.  I finished it and additional coursework after I got out, and after my experiences with the true firehose of the SF medical pipeline, College was like drinking from a water fountain.


----------



## Crusader74 (Jun 27, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> Cadre for what?



For cross training with AD ODA's.


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 27, 2011)

Irish said:


> For cross training with AD ODA's.



We don't cross train per say (since both AD and NG guys attend the same SFQC) but we train together from time to time and also on occasion 3rd and 7th Groups will send ODAs to attend our Advanced Urban Combat Course.  The majority of combined training is done on the individual level while attending other courses of study.

We do more training with the 160th (at our Training Detachment) than the other SF Groups...


----------



## Crusader74 (Jun 27, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> We don't cross train per say (since both AD and NG guys attend the same SFQC) but we train together from time to time and also on occasion 3rd and 7th Groups will send ODAs to attend our Advanced Urban Combat Course. The majority of combined training is done on the individual level while attending other courses of study.
> 
> We do more training with the 160th (at our Training Detachment) than the other SF Groups...



Cheers for that Crip.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 27, 2011)

Here is the thing, I didn't join with the intention of going to the guard, but I am now doing that now. It is still looked down upon by other AD guys. I am doing it for personal reasons, but still want to serve the regiment, I could see a guy who has done a few deployments on the guard wanting to go active, I don't see it as a roblem if he has served his time to the unit that supported his training. But others will, people will feel betrayed by a quick transfer. A few of my buddies have tried and been shot down trying to go on AD. I do think the degree thing is shady, training group is a 100% commitment, he will not be able to go to school while at SWTG. If he is he is shamming one of the two.


----------



## LM (Jun 27, 2011)

cback0220 said:


> Here is the thing, I didn't join with the intention of going to the guard, but I am now doing that now. It is still looked down upon by other AD guys. I am doing it for personal reasons, but still want to serve the regiment, I could see a guy who has done a few deployments on the guard wanting to go active, I don't see it as a roblem if he has served his time to the unit that supported his training. But others will, people will feel betrayed by a quick transfer. A few of my buddies have tried and been shot down trying to go on AD. I do think the degree thing is shady, training group is a 100% commitment, he will not be able to go to school while at SWTG. If he is he is shamming one of the two.



Thanks, that was the kinda 1st hand experience I was looking for


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 27, 2011)

We have about 18 guys in our company who fled 5th Group like the plague last year...  Have a few from 7th and 3rd as well and will probably pick up some more 7th Group guys due to the move to FL...  Conversely our company has only lost one guy to AD in the past 3 years, and we wanted him to leave...

Crip


----------



## Echo (Jun 27, 2011)

cback0220 said:


> Here is the thing, I didn't join with the intention of going to the guard, but I am now doing that now. It is still looked down upon by other AD guys. I am doing it for personal reasons, but still want to serve the regiment



I was criticized in another post for stating that I was interested in SF and had the intentions of attempting some national level unit later. What I really meant was I am interested in that type of a support role when I was older and "retired", more experienced and probably not into jumping out of a perfectly good airplane as much. Another factor would be the ability to remain in a "SOF" type team environment, OPTEMPO, and training/learning opportunities while being close to home and the family. I've looked closely at BORTAC but the three years mandatory time as a regular agent kind of pushes me away as I'm not getting any younger. Their mission to my limited knowledge closely resembles Army SF in some aspects (international training/advisory functions, counter terrorism operations, counter narcotics operations, high-risk warrant service, dignitary protection, interdiction & patrol operations, and tactical training to other U.S. agencies and military units). TX SF NG is the other option.


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 27, 2011)

Echo said:


> ...BORTAC.  Their mission to my limited knowledge closely resembles Army SF in some aspects (international training/advisory functions, counter terrorism operations, counter narcotics operations, high-risk warrant service, dignitary protection, interdiction & patrol operations, and tactical training to other U.S. agencies and military units). TX SF NG is the other option.



I could draw similarities between SF and the girlscouts but...

There are more glaring differences than there are similarities in the two organizations you list above.

More reading...


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 27, 2011)

Echo said:


> I was criticized in another post for stating that I was interested in SF and had the intentions of attempting some national level unit later. What I really meant was I am interested in that type of a support role when I was older and "retired", more experienced and probably not into jumping out of a perfectly good airplane as much. Another factor would be the ability to remain in a "SOF" type team environment, OPTEMPO, and training/learning opportunities while being close to home and the family. I've looked closely at BORTAC but the three years mandatory time as a regular agent kind of pushes me away as I'm not getting any younger. Their mission to my limited knowledge closely resembles Army SF in some aspects (international training/advisory functions, counter terrorism operations, counter narcotics operations, high-risk warrant service, dignitary protection, interdiction & patrol operations, and tactical training to other U.S. agencies and military units). TX SF NG is the other option.



Bro you have got to take a deep breath. I am telling you this before you get dogpiled. You are a SPC deployed in AFG right now right? You state in your intro that you want to go to SFAS, but are talking above about SF as a backup. If SF is your back-up you do not freaking belong here. You know what my back-up to SF was. West Point. I got in prior to going to SFAS. But I stuck with SF because in my mind I had made that commitment. It is a 100% commitment. It was never this or that for me or anyone else. It was SF. It was a calling. It does not seem like it is the same way for you. At all. Your train of thought isn't even 100% committed to the topic of a single thread. BORTAC? Seriously? Good freaking luck, and the reason you need those pesky 3 years as an agent is prolly due to that pesky lack of experience that you have. They need those three pesky years to make you a good federal officer, and to make sure you are 100% committed to the job. Otherwise dudes would come in fail out of their pipeline and quit the BP outright. Why do you think 18X's have a 5 year mandatory commitment? To weed out guys who cannot commit before they ever go to SFAS. Guys who cannot even commit 5 years of their lives in pursuit of a lifetime of brotherhood have no right to even try out.


----------



## Brill (Jun 27, 2011)

Any SFAS physical & mental training you take up, will also help you become a more capable HUMINTer and a better soldier (if you get delayed or plans change).

Watch the "old" comments!  They hit too close to home!


----------



## Echo (Jun 27, 2011)

Cback, probably doesn't need to be said but you bring up an excellent point. Guess I need to do some more soul searching.


----------



## Ajax (Jun 27, 2011)

LM said:


> I know, I know, ive got the comomon scenario though, so i wont go into it, no question i can ask hasnt been asked 1k times before and that i dont already know the answer to- ive just got to make the solid mental commitment.
> 
> Anyway- I think Ive got a question to go back on course-
> 
> ...



Yeah, Needs of the Army.  More than likely, the eighty deuce as he will be 11BP and the Army won't have to pay for a PCS move.  As far as the training time, it's not basically the same, it _is _same.  If he wants to go active after the Q, he'll have to go to an ascensions board.  Usually not a big deal for 18 series, but it is an extra hoop to jump through.  You're right about having more options in the Guard though.  If he doesn't make it, wife accuses him of domestic violence, gets convicted of narco trafficking, loses a shoulder in a tragic rucking accident, etc, he can go back to Ft Livingroom.  Depending on his NG command, he'll also have more control over selecting his MOS after he's selected.

On the other hand, if he signs that AD 18X contract, not being sent down the street could be just the right motivation to make it through a dark time.  Sometimes the lack of a safety net is exactly what we need.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 27, 2011)

Ajax said:


> Yeah, Needs of the Army. More than likely, the eighty deuce as he will be 11BP and the Army won't have to pay for a PCS move. As far as the training time, it's not basically the same, it _is _same. If he wants to go active after the Q, he'll have to go to an ascensions board. Usually not a big deal for 18 series, but it is an extra hoop to jump through. You're right about having more options in the Guard though. If he doesn't make it, wife accuses him of domestic violence, gets convicted of narco trafficking, loses a shoulder in a tragic rucking accident, etc, he can go back to Ft Livingroom. Depending on his NG command, he'll also have more control over selecting his MOS after he's selected.
> 
> On the other hand, if he signs that AD 18X contract, not being sent down the street could be just the right motivation to make it through a dark time. Sometimes the lack of a safety net is exactly what we need.



Fear of the 82nd is a huge motivator. It helped me along in the cold/heat/rain/snow of CMK. But an individuals fear of failing is the true motivator for this line of work. I personally would not have been able to face my family and friends if I would have quit.


----------



## Ajax (Jun 28, 2011)

x SF med said:


> LM, I'm calling bullshit on your post - it's the same argument, just a different day.
> 1. He's NG, if he takes a NG SF slot, fulfill or fail there.
> 2. if he takes an AD SF slot, fulfill or fail there.
> 3. The degree is personal, unless he's bucking for OCS, then he needs to fulfill his current obligation to the unit he is in.
> ...


 
Damn bro, I leave for a little bit and I come back and you're all pissed off and throwing poo at non-quals and breaking shit.  What happened?  LOL.

I don't know what arguments were going on previous, but I think some of his q's are valid.  From my perspective as team daddy, if USASFC has handed us a Snickers (as in, "not going anywhere for a while?"), I've got no issues with someone taking off to AD for a bit, particularly if he's a young guy.  The biggest strength SF has is its experience, particularly when boys bring their outside and pre-18 series experience to the table.  If all a kid has in his ruck is a college degree and a Yarborough knife, its going to make it hard to get him up to where he needs to be in one weekend a month, or however often he drills.  We send guys off to the AD all the time.  For the most part, they come back in a timely fashion.  When they come back, they return with bushel full of lessons learned.

The only BF'ing really going on is against the State.  MOS schools are paid for out of State budgets.  The Q ain't cheap. If I'm running a Guard unit and I suspect a NQ is going to go active upon graduation, I'm going to do everything I can to assist him joining the active force before he eats up half my FY budget. (Look at me, all middle managment savvy.  Next I'll be spot checking people's flair).


----------



## Etype (Jun 28, 2011)

I have a question for you LM.  Is this 'soldier' of yours who wants to do all this stuff, is he really you?  Sometimes crazy people talk in the third person regarding themselves, or dissociate themselves from themselves- they usually don't make it past the first couple days of selection (psych eval).

Most guys who are in SF, or any of the other ones I'm sure (MARSOC, SEALs, PJs, etc)  didn't have 300 hundred questions and an intricate plan.  They saw something they wanted and they took it for their own.


----------



## shortbrownguy (Jun 28, 2011)

Etype said:


> I have a question for you LM. Is this 'soldier' of yours who wants to do all this stuff, is he really you? Sometimes crazy people talk in the third person regarding themselves, or dissociate themselves from themselves- they usually don't make it past the first couple days of selection (psych eval).
> 
> Most guys who are in SF, or any of the other ones I'm sure (MARSOC, SEALs, PJs, etc) didn't have 300 hundred questions and an intricate plan. They saw something they wanted and they took it for their own.


The sexiness of the SOF lifestyle quickly fades with the first 100lb. ruck, cold wet night in the woods, etc. Either you want it or you don't.
Its that easy.

SBG sends.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 28, 2011)

shortbrownguy said:


> The sexiness of the SOF lifestyle quickly fades with the first 100lb. ruck, cold wet night in the woods, etc. Either you want it or you don't.
> Its that easy.
> 
> SBG sends.



Too true bro, too true.


----------



## Purple (Jun 28, 2011)

LM,

I started college at 17 and was drafted at 19, volunteered for SF and (while on AD) finished my Bachelor's at 34 and my Master's at 39. It is your path to walk; nobody else's. Do, not do.

Purple


----------



## policemedic (Jun 28, 2011)

Echo said:


> What I really meant was I am interested in that type of a support role when I was older and "retired", more experienced and probably not into jumping out of a perfectly good airplane as much. Another factor would be the ability to remain in a "SOF" type team environment, OPTEMPO, and training/learning opportunities while being close to home and the family. I've looked closely at BORTAC but the three years mandatory time as a regular agent kind of pushes me away



First, the obvious- I'm not a Special Forces soldier, so I'm going to stay in my lane as best I can. However, I have been, and currently am, a member of the type of tactical units you seem to want to join. 

Short version- you don't know what you don't know. And I seriously doubt you'll get the chance to learn unless you get yourself straight. 

I have to tell you that the comments you made above display both a narcissism and ignorance that would disqualify you from consideration for my current team, and a task force I led in the past. We don't want people who are what we refer to as retired-on-duty. Another disqualifier is your glaring indecision. Perhaps it's your youth and inexperience; you may grow out of it if you simply focus on being the best soldier you can be where you are right now. Forget 25m, think 5m target. 

One reason your indecision makes me question your value to my team (staying in my lane here) is that if you can't make a call on something that should be a no-brainer, how can I trust you to make a good judgment call in tactically or ethically challenging circumstances?

You seem to want to jump right onto a team like BORTAC without mastering the basics of the profession. As has already been stated, there is a damn good reason no SWAT team outside of the one run by Sheriff Buford Justice takes people right out of the academy. Good SWAT cops are first and foremost excellent street cops. You may have heard that professionals are those who have an excellent mastery of, and consistently apply, the basics. It's true; it's why you need seasoning before you even get looked at for BORTAC, USMS SOG, and I'm willing to bet SF. 

Get to know yourself, excel in MI, find your calling. Stop spinning your wheels.


----------



## Ajax (Jun 28, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> We don't cross train per say (since both AD and NG guys attend the same SFQC) but we train together from time to time and also on occasion 3rd and 7th Groups will send ODAs to attend our Advanced Urban Combat Course. The majority of combined training is done on the individual level while attending other courses of study.
> 
> We do more training with the 160th (at our Training Detachment) than the other SF Groups...



Likewise for 1st and 10th attending our (19th) schools.  We also deploy to the same AOR, often together.


----------



## LM (Jun 28, 2011)

Etype said:


> I have a question for you LM. Is this 'soldier' of yours who wants to do all this stuff, is he really you? Sometimes crazy people talk in the third person regarding themselves, or dissociate themselves from themselves- they usually don't make it past the first couple days of selection (psych eval).
> 
> Most guys who are in SF, or any of the other ones I'm sure (MARSOC, SEALs, PJs, etc) didn't have 300 hundred questions and an intricate plan. They saw something they wanted and they took it for their own.



negative sir. ive got my own path and wants. Until recently I wasnt even exactly sure of the actual SF mission- came from USMC where its not usual talk about army units ect, as we dont GAF. i i didnt GAF as that wasnt my plan.

 I came here to research B4 stuff, as lowly as that may be for some,  that was my only life-long goal and ive met it, what do I do next? Not sure. I have short term shit to take care of t fill the time, but thats nothing to longterm.

The fact I came across this post was coincidental with what a few of my guys recently stated their intentions are, that is all.

"IF" I were to be interested in this personally, i wouldnt be here asking questions. I know the level of commitment and longterm affects going to and passing selection has. Although im the FNG here, i know where ive been and what Ive done, and how hard ive had to push myself to get there, so the simple fact that 18x is above me, I can only assume what ive done is lowest level of whats to be expected, and thats all I really need to know.


----------



## Diamondback 2/2 (Jun 28, 2011)

LM, you’re good to go man. The gentleman on this board and in this thread may seem a little rough in their posts at first, but they mean well. Even if they might come off as assholes here and there, their true intent is to help people who aspire to join their ranks (sometimes that’s a kick in the balls for some).

Congratulations on meeting your personal goals (Sniper school), that’s more then I can personally say for my own military goals. Thank you for your service, and don’t feel you are less of a soldier or that you need to compare yourself to anyone because you don’t wear a tab or patch. That said, this is the SF side of the forum and belongs to the respected SF soldiers in this thread, they deserve all the respect they have earned.

I would recommend that invite your soldier to join the forum and ask his question and gain his advice here from the men who currently serve in SF. There is a dedicated forum to mentor people who aspire to join SOF and with pretty darn good results. More than a few members have successfully transitioned from conventional to the SOF side, based on the advice from the SOF mentors in this forum.


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 28, 2011)

JAB said:


> LM, you’re good to go man. The gentleman on this board and in this thread may seem a little rough in their posts at first, but they mean well. Even if they might come off as assholes here and there, their true intent to help people who aspire to join their ranks (sometimes that’s a kick in the balls for some).
> 
> Congratulations on meeting your personal goals (Sniper school), that’s more then I can personally say for my own military goals. Thank you for your service, and don’t feel you are less of a soldier or that you need to compare yourself to anyone because you don’t wear a tab or patch. That said, this is the SF side of the forum and belongs to the respected SF soldiers in this thread, they deserve all the respect they have earned.
> 
> I would recommend that invite your soldier to join the forum and ask his question and gain his advice here from the men who currently serve in SF. There is a dedicated forum to mentor people who aspire to join SOF and with pretty darn good results. More than a few members have successfully transitioned from conventional to the SOF side, based on the advice from the SOF mentors in this forum.



Good post JAB


----------



## LM (Jun 28, 2011)

Oh i Know, but what kinda SL would i be if i couldnt give the best answer to my juniors, or at least attempt to.. ;)

AS for the people, I think we are all Alpha types, so its nature. And I expect whats come out, but the information has come as well, and thats what matters to me. I also understand the frustration in some posts, im sure they get tired of the "same questions" from every newb that comes here and eventually fades away. and Im sure the stern tones even intimidate some, but some are not here for newb shit and can and will stand their ground if they feel they have solid comments or valid questions .

oh, and "Sniper School" was just a formailty in a sense, I want to do the job, not just wear the Tab that I cant wear anyway :)


----------



## surgicalcric (Jun 28, 2011)

LM said:


> ...what kinda SL would i be if i couldnt give the best answer to my juniors, or at least attempt to...



You would be a SL who knows he cannot answer questions about a topic he knows very little about.

You will garner more respect for saying, "I dont know but I can tell you where to find out" than by making SWAGs or passing off incomplete, 2nd hand information which will lead to more questions you cant answer.

Part of being a good leader and NCO is realizing we have limitations. ;)


----------



## LM (Jun 28, 2011)

correct, but do I not now know there are mixed feelings about NG-AD once on a tm, and I can tell him its going to depend on his individual Tm, when/if he makes it there, but generally frowned upon?

being an outsider, thats about as good as i can get i think, but short and to the point


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 28, 2011)

surgicalcric said:


> I could draw similarities between SF and the girlscouts but...
> 
> There are more glaring differences than there are similarities in the two organizations you list above.
> 
> .



 But they are such awesome differences, and they where the same color hat.


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 28, 2011)

cback0220 said:


> View attachment 4431 But they are such awesome differences, and they where the same color hat.


Eating that Girl Scout would be less fattening then eating a brownie.


----------



## x SF med (Jun 28, 2011)

LM said:


> Oh i Know, but what kinda SL would i be if i couldnt give the best answer to my juniors, or at least attempt to.. ;)


   "I don't know."  Has always been a perfectly acceptable answer if the question is beyond your experience.  In this case, sending this soldier to the NG SF recruiter would have been the best answer.



> AS for the people, I think we are all Alpha types, so its nature. And I expect whats come out, but the information has come as well, and thats what matters to me. I also understand the frustration in some posts, im sure they get tired of the "same questions" from every newb that comes here and eventually fades away. and Im sure the stern tones even intimidate some, but some are not here for newb shit and can and will stand their ground if they feel they have solid comments or valid questions .



Belligerent, "I know everything because..." , or, "You should tell me, because..."  , or, "I've just stepped foot in your door, you don't know me from Adam and I'm demanding answers because I'm a cool guy and I know it...  I'm a Squad Leader...."  impresses nobody...   Yeah, I got shitty...  it's part of my job.  You know what, HERE, you are a newb - your self-stated lack of knowledge confirms this,  if you want to be an outstanding NCO, you need to quit arguing with people who actually have the answers, solutions, questions and processes you need - or you will fail, miserably.



> oh, and "Sniper School" was just a formailty in a sense, I want to do the job, not just wear the Tab that I cant wear anyway :)



See above...  passive-aggressive will not make you a respected leader and NCO.  It is not about the Tabs, the hats, the bling...  it's about the job and your Team on up to the Regiment.   That is probably the biggest difference in SOF units, the esprit de corps, ask a Ranger and hell tell you:  X Company,  Y Battalion, 75th Ranger Regiment ; an SF Guy will tell you ODA 9999 and leave it there because if you know, everything is right there, Group, Battalion, Company, and Team...  if you don't know you might get C/2/10th SFG(A).

Be the best at your job, be humble when required, be a hard ass if needed - but know the flippin difference...  stubborn and obstinate only works occasionally, and you better have the brass on your collar to back that shit up... and others in your Chain of Command that know you are 100% correct.

I can tell you your reputation on here right now...   it's: arrogant punk in the SP4 mafia, letting his SL status get in the way of what could be a promising career if his balls wouldn't block his brains, too stupid to admit he doesn't know what he doesn't know, and too arrogant to admit he's wrong.  You stepped on your dick with sharpened track shoes - are you going to fix it, or let the wounds fester and have your dick fall off?

I don't know why, but you just got NCOPD...  heed it or forget it, your choice.


----------



## LM (Jun 28, 2011)

can I copy your sig? i feel the same way when im done reading your posts


----------



## TLDR20 (Jun 28, 2011)

LM said:


> can I copy your sig? i feel the same way when im done reading your posts



I feel like a short break from posting here at least in this thread is a good idea for you.


----------



## LM (Jun 28, 2011)

ill take your advice, as I was done since I got the basic info i was after anyway,  andjust got caught up in an un-needed post directed towards me. g'day gents.


----------



## DA SWO (Jun 28, 2011)

Knock it off, or I'll lock this thread.


----------



## 18C4V (Jun 29, 2011)

Ravage said:


> If I may ask.
> 
> What does the OML exacly mean? Is it a schedule for the different types of units to attend the whole spectrum of schools/courses that are available to them? (MFF, JTAC etc ?)



From my personal point of view, it varies from unit to unit and from the current SOP by the Company SGM. Historically each ODA 18Z runs thier OML based upon thier specific infil skill and what schools guys need in accordance with USAFAC 350-1. For example, I manage the MFF slots since I'm the MFF 18Z. I decide on my team who goes to the school. I get a certain amount of hard slots per fiscal year and I plug them based upon when they can go.  All of my guys who are waiting to go to MFFPC all have a current HAP card and a current stamped physical or about to get a current physical. I got guys who are admin prepared for a last minute slot since sometimes MFF slots drop last minute or a walk on slot happens.

I have an ODA OML for guys who need to go to SFAUCC and other related schools. Other schools have pre-reqs that limit who can go which narrows down the pool of qualified applicants.


----------

